CANADIAN TRIBUNAL CANADIEN HUMAN RIGHTS DES DROITS TRIBUNAL DE LA PERSONNE C A N A D A
BETWEEN/ENTRE:
RICHARD WARMAN Complainant le plaignant
and/et
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION Commission la Commission
and/et
WESTERN CANADA FOR US AND GLENN BAHR Respondents les l'intimés
BEFORE/DEVANT: JULIE LLOYD THE CHAIRPERSON/ LA PRÉSIDENTE LINE JOYAL REGISTRY OFFICER/ L'AGENTE DU GREFFE
FILE NO./NO CAUSE: T1087/6805 VOLUME: 4 LOCATION/ENDROIT: EDMONTON, ALBERTA DATE: 2006-05-26 PAGES: 670 - 877
StenoTran - ii - CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL/ TRIBUNAL CANADIEN DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE
HEARING HELD IN THE QUEEN ELIZABETH ROOM, DELTA EDMONTON CENTRE, 10222 102 STREET, EDMONTON, ALBERTA ON FRIDAY, MAY 26, 2006, AT 9:30 A.M. LOCAL TIME
IN THE MATTER OF a complaint filed by Richard Warman dated June 8, 2004, pursuant to Section 13(1) of the Canadian Human Rights Act against Western Canada For Us and Glenn Bahr. The complainant alleges that the respondents have engaged in a discriminatory practice on the grounds of religion, sexual orientation, race, colour, national and/or ethnic origin and disability in the matter related to the usage of telecommunication undertaking.
APPEARANCES/COMPARUTIONS Richard Warman on his own behalf Giacomo Vigna on behalf of the Commission Ikrame Warsame Paul Fromm on behalf of Glenn Bahr
StenoTran - iii - TABLE OF CONTENTS PAGE Previously sworn: Stephen Camp 694 Examination (con't) by Mr. Fromm 694
Affirmed: Richard Warman 745 Examination by Ms Warsame 746
StenoTran - iv - LIST OF EXHIBITS NO. PAGE HR-21 Complaint filed by Richard Warman and the Canadian Human Rights Commission dated June 8, 2004 746 HR-22 The summary of complaint signed by Richard Warman dated June 8, 2004 750 HR-23 Thread titled "Stormfront forum new here, anyone in Surrey BC" 753 HR-24 Copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website titled "Eagle Tattoo" 756 HR-25 A copy of the thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Tatoos" 761 HR-26 Copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Should SF remove its National Socialist (NS) symbology page?" 763 HR-27 The copy of a thread found on the Stormfront printout or website entitled "Happy Birthday Paul Fromm" 778 HR-28 A copy of a thread found in the stormfront.org website entitled "Warman files complaint against WCFU" 781 HR-29 Five-page document of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Warman files complaint against WCFU" 785 HR-30 A copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "video of the raid on my place last May" 787 HR-31 An article found on the CBC website entitled "Edmonton Police investigate hate crime seizure" 790
StenoTran - v - LIST OF EXHIBITS NO. PAGE HR-32 A nine-page document of the thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "video of the raid on my place last May" 792 HR-33 A copy of the thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Glenn Bahr charged with 'Hate'" 799 HR-34 An article found under CBC website entitled "Edmonton rally shows support for Zundel" 802 HR-35 A copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "pics of us proud white folks?" printed on January 24, 2004 805 HR-36 A copy of Glenn Bahr's British Columbia driver's license 809 HR-37 Copy of Glenn Bahr's picture 810 HR-38 Copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Pic thread!" 811 HR-39 A picture of Glenn Bahr printed by Mr. Warman on February 5, 2005 812 HR-40 Document printed by Mr. Warman dated February 22, 2004 from the Western Canada for Us website 813 HR-41 Copy of the thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "W.C.F.U. needs web designer" 816 HR-42 Four-page document of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "W.C.F.U. needs web designer" 821 HR-43 A copy of a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled "WCFU Online!" 822
StenoTran - vi - LIST OF EXHIBITS NO. PAGE HR-44 Copy of the thread found on Western Canada For Us website entitled "Homosexuals" 824 HR-45 Copy of the thread found at Western Canada For Us website entitled "Letters to the Winnipeg Sun Printed Today" 829 HR-46 Copy of the CD-ROM entitled "Warman v. Bahr & Western Canada For Us 8 June, 2004. 1) Complaint; 2) Evidence downloaded texts & forum (WCFU) materials" 837 HR-47 A copy of a thread found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled "Application" 845 HR-48 Article found on the Winnipeg CBC website entitled "Group attacks police, protestors - but not members" 852 HR-49 A copy of a thread found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled "My resignation" 856 HR-50 A copy of the thread found in the Western Canada For Us website entitled "Question for racists" 863 HR-51 Copy of the thread found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled "Battle lines drawn over gay marriage" 867 HR-52 Copy of the thread found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled "WhiteEuroCanadian is no longer here" 870
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1 Edmonton, Alberta 2 --- Upon resuming on Friday, May 26, 2006 3 at 9:30 a.m. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, 5 everyone. Be seated please. 6 MR. VIGNA: Madam Chair. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 8 MR. VIGNA: I would like to make a 9 few submissions additional to where we left off 10 yesterday. 11 I had a chance to speak on the 12 specific objection that you were to rule on this 13 morning. 14 And before you rule on the issue, I 15 was made aware of the serious concerns that are 16 involved with answering the question that was asked in 17 relation to the identity; and as a compromise we could 18 even perhaps agree, the complainant and the Commission, 19 to have the part of the thread which deals with Estates 20 disregarded from the evidence so that we don't have 21 to -- so that there is no questions that are need to be 22 asked in relation to that. 23 If that is not a feasible option, 24 Madam Chair, another -- we would like to stress again 25 that there is a public interest issue that would be
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1 seriously affecting jeopardy of the investigation: The 2 safety of the officers. 3 I believe it is Section 38 of the 4 Canada Evidence Act. I haven't had a chance to verify 5 it, but the officer is familiar with the section and 6 often invokes it before the criminal codes -- criminal 7 courts, and I believe in the preliminary inquiry he had 8 invoked the same section on the same issue, if I am not 9 mistaken. 10 Is that the case, Mr. Camp? 11 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 12 MR. VIGNA: And finally, if the 13 question needs to be asked, perhaps another option 14 would be that to have an in-camera hearing to discuss 15 the actual security issues because I can't reveal more 16 than that because it would be defeating the purpose 17 and... 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 19 I spent some time yesterday evening 20 considering the question -- 21 MR. FROMM: Could I -- 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. Can I 23 just -- can I do this, and then I am expecting 24 representations after that. 25 I thought about this last night, and
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1 I went through the complaint and the statements of 2 particulars, and, you know, we are trying to determine 3 relevance. We need to go back to first principles, and 4 so that is what I have done. 5 One of the -- and so I am just going 6 to sort of outline and just remind us all what the 7 complaint is and what the respondent is telling us. 8 The issue that we have here is we 9 have got a couple of questions that were asked of 10 Sergeant Camp by the respondent. One of them was to 11 identify a moniker, a particular pseudonym, I guess, 12 that may or may not have been used on one or both of 13 the websites that are in question here; and the other 14 is to identify whether a particular post was -- or 15 posts were made by Sergeant Camp. 16 The Commission, of course, is taking 17 the position that it is not relevant. 18 The sergeant is refusing to answer by 19 reason that -- the impact on an ongoing investigation, 20 and the respondent says it is relevant. 21 So a starting point to determine here 22 whether it is relevant is the complaint itself, all 23 right. We have got a couple different allegations. 24 The first is that Mr. Bahr and WCFU 25 violated 13(1) by communicating messages through the
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1 internet site; and the second is that Mr. Bahr and WCFU 2 published a notice pursuant -- in a violation of 3 Section 12(a). 4 And then we are looking at the 5 particulars, and this is where my concern arises 6 because the particulars, in my view, have some 7 vagueness to them, and perhaps if we can get some 8 clarity on that it will help resolve the relevance 9 issues. 10 In the particulars, first the 11 allegation is that Mr. Bahr posted, himself posted 12 material on Stormfront using pseudonym SS-88 and Glenn 13 Bahr posted the discriminatory material on the WCFU 14 website using names SS-88 and Glenn. So there is some 15 part of the allegation that is very specific to 16 Mr. Bahr. 17 There is also in the complaint a note 18 that there is a broad range of discriminatory materials 19 disclosed in the evidence accompanying the complaint, 20 and then some examples are provided below, and there 21 are examples of specific posts by SS-88 and Glenn. 22 There is also an allegation that 23 Glenn Bahr offered literature downloads off the WCFU 24 site, and examples are listed there. 25 The 12(a) violation, the allegation
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1 is that Glenn Bahr designed and created the WCFU 2 website, and the 12(a) complaint goes to the 10 3 Commandments post that we reviewed a couple of days 4 ago. 5 Now it is not clear to me from the 6 particulars if the content, if the content of the 7 discussion forum is argued to contribute to the Section 8 13(1) violation; and in particular, the role of the 9 WCFU in this complaint isn't drawn really clearly. 10 So it seems to me that if the 11 complaint, if the complainant and the Commission are 12 alleging that the content of the discussion forums, 13 other than the impugned posts that are alleged to be 14 made by SS-88 and Glenn, contribute to the Section 13 15 violation, then questions regarding what, if any, posts 16 are made by Sergeant Camp during the relevant period 17 are relevant. 18 If the complainant is not alleging 19 that the content of the discussion forums, other than 20 those specific posts by SS-88 and Glenn, then the 21 questions aren't relevant. 22 Now the respondent has suggested that 23 posts might have been made with an intent to entrap and 24 provoke and those aren't defences under the Act, and so 25 that does not -- so those questions do not become
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1 relevant for that reason. 2 But that is the question that I need 3 to have some answers on. 4 Now I hear counsel saying that they 5 might agree to stay away from some particular threads. 6 I don't know that that helps us here particularly. 7 So I think question number 1 is to 8 decide whether this question is relevant, and, in my 9 view, this is how we need to approach that question. 10 Then the second part of the question 11 is I am happy to hear arguments under the Canada 12 Evidence Act or any arguments that somebody wants to 13 put forward to suggest that there are some reasons why 14 we can decline an answer or a question can be declined. 15 Finally, the jurisdiction of the 16 Commission does not include a jurisdiction with respect 17 to contempt, so I can allow a question to be asked; I 18 can't compel an answer. I can and will, if I have 19 decided it is relevant, draw a negative inference from 20 a refusal to answer a question. 21 So that is the way I am seeing this 22 right now. 23 So if somebody could talk to me -- I 24 am sorry, you have got your hand up? 25 MR. BAHR: Yeah. I would just like
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1 to make a statement why I think it is important. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 3 MR. BAHR: Okay. The person with the 4 user name Estate was -- 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon? 6 MR. BAHR: The person with the user 7 name Estate under question that was on the forum of 8 Stormfront and WCFU, he was an integral part of the 9 WCFU. He came to our protests. He came to our meeting 10 and -- 11 MR. WARMAN: I am sorry, but that 12 sounds awfully like giving evidence rather than making 13 argument. 14 MR. BAHR: Well, it has something to 15 do with the whole thing. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 17 MR. BAHR: I mean, he helped build 18 the organization. He put forward ideas. He took part 19 in discussions. 20 I mean, if this tribunal wants a fair 21 trial, I mean, I can't even get to any evidence because 22 it is objected to because they say there is 23 investigations and stuff? I don't think that is fair. 24 I mean, Estate -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are not
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1 quite to that point yet. 2 MR. BAHR: Right. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: At this point I am 4 trying to understand where we are at from a relevance 5 perspective -- 6 MR. BAHR: But I mean -- 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and I understand 8 your point that even if, that if it is relevant you 9 feel that the evidence should be disclosed whether or 10 not there is an ongoing criminal investigation. 11 But let us start with the first part 12 of the formula too because depending on the answer 13 there we might not need to get to the other -- 14 MR. BAHR: Okay. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- to the other, 16 okay? 17 MR. BAHR: Thanks. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 19 So can I hear perhaps from Mr. Warman 20 on the question of relevance? 21 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, I am sorry, 22 but given the sort of areas that you have asked to be 23 addressed, I am just wondering if I could have 5 24 minutes to speak with my clients please. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
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1 MR. VIGNA: I was going to ask for 2 same... 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 4 --- Recessed 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hello everyone. 6 Please be seated. 7 MR. FROMM: Madam Chairman, before we 8 proceed on this, could I just clarify something I said 9 yesterday. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. 11 MR. FROMM: I think I asked you to 12 get your colleagues off my back when I was being what I 13 thought was interrupted. 14 What I -- I may have left the 15 impression that I was considering you to be working 16 with Mr. Vigna and Mr. Warman. 17 What I really meant is that your 18 fellow lawyers. I did not mean to imply anything more 19 sinister - just a couple of lawyers. 20 I don't know if -- I was thinking 21 about this driving away yesterday that I may have left 22 an impression I didn't intend to leave. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that, 24 Mr. Fromm, and, no, I didn't get that from your 25 comment.
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1 And, you know, as a lawyer, I know 2 the frustration of trying to ask questions and not 3 being able to do it. So I know what that feels like, 4 so sympathies. 5 So where are we at here? Somebody is 6 missing. 7 MR. VIGNA: Well, my colleague is 8 coming, but we can continue. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 10 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, there is 11 just one or two points I would like to clarify by 12 virtue of your previous statements just before the 13 pause, if I could please. 14 During the teleconference call with 15 Member Jensen just before the start of the hearing, it 16 may have, in fact, been the last teleconference call, 17 it was clarified that there was confusion as to whether 18 it was the Section 13 complaint had been referred by 19 the Commission or whether it was the Section 13 and the 20 Section 12 complaint. 21 I clarified for Madam Jensen that 22 if -- even if the Section 12 complaint had been 23 referred to the tribunal by the Commission that I was 24 content simply to let that fall by the wayside just in 25 the interests of a more expeditious hearing.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That is 2 helpful. That tidies things up a little bit here. 3 Okay. Good. 4 MR. WARMAN: I would like to clarify 5 as well that there are, in fact, or just emphasize that 6 there are, in fact, two complaints that are here before 7 the tribunal. There is the complaint against an 8 individual respondent Glenn Bahr, and then there is a 9 complaint against what we allege is a group of 10 individuals acting in concert against under the name 11 Western Canada For Us. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 13 MR. WARMAN: In terms of the 14 complaint against the individual respondent Mr. Bahr 15 and the forum postings, I would like to emphasize that 16 all of Mr. Bahr's postings, whether they are on 17 Stormfront or whether they are on WCFU, are the only 18 postings -- are the only forum postings that we 19 consider to be relevant or that we will be advancing as 20 the basis of his liability under the Act. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 22 And what about -- I am sorry. 23 MR. WARMAN: Just getting there. 24 In terms of the broader forum 25 postings that are not alleged to be by Mr. Bahr on --
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1 that stem from the WCFU website, I would like to 2 emphasize that those are in relation to the complaint 3 against the group respondent WCFU only. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 5 MR. WARMAN: By virtue of that, I 6 would also like to make the submission that Mr. Fromm 7 is not eligible to ask questions in relation to those 8 broader forum postings because they do not relate to 9 the person that he is currently acting as agent on 10 behalf of. 11 He has indicated quite clearly that 12 he does not represent WCFU, that he does not have 13 instructions to represent them, and that, therefore, 14 questions regarding the broader forum postings to the 15 extent that they go to the question of liability for 16 the group respondent are not open. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do recall reading 18 that position expressed by Mr. Fromm several times. It 19 would -- okay. 20 So at the end of the day you are 21 relying on the broader postings, you are relying on 22 them with respect to WCFU only, and the respondent's 23 position that has been stated fairly consistently is 24 that WCFU is not a proper respondent, and that is their 25 defence with respect to the status of WCFU as a
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1 respondent; and so, therefore, questions in that 2 context are not relevant for that reason. 3 MR. WARMAN: Not only that, but 4 Mr. Fromm has stated repeatedly in the past, including 5 at this hearing, that he does not represent WCFU and 6 therefore -- 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think maybe 8 that is too fine a point for me but -- because clearly 9 Mr. Bahr could ask those questions; but I think perhaps 10 I am more persuaded, I guess, by the suggestion that 11 the defence with respect to WCFU is not that the posts 12 were not made, but rather that that entity is not a 13 proper entity before the tribunal. 14 Mr. Fromm? 15 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, sorry. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. 17 MR. WARMAN: If I may. There is one 18 other -- 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, please go. 20 MR. WARMAN: So the other -- that 21 your point, of course, leads to if Mr. Bahr were to ask 22 those questions we would ask him to establish how it is 23 that he represents WCFU. 24 And -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
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1 MR. WARMAN: -- the last point I 2 would make is that Sergeant Camp over the break has had 3 an opportunity to speak with his colleagues and 4 superiors at the Edmonton Police Service as well as 5 other -- I won't go into -- he has had a chance to 6 confirm that there are no further ongoing issues in 7 relation to -- we won't be continuing with the Section 8 37 Canada Evidence Act objection. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 10 Mr. Fromm? 11 MR. VIGNA: I got the same comments, 12 Madam Chair, for the Commission -- 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, 14 Mr. Vigna. 15 MR. VIGNA: -- but we had conferred 16 together so I have got the same comments. 17 MR. BAHR: I would just like to speak 18 on my behalf about WCFU and me representing it. 19 I think that -- I don't think I 20 should have to convict myself in any way in trying to 21 cross-examine about the argument that I controlled WCFU 22 like Richard Warman asked. He asked that if I am to 23 continue asking Mr. Camp about WCFU and Estate that I 24 have to give reasonable grounds what my role was before 25 asking those questions, and I think I have to object to
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1 that. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 3 The point that Mr. Warman and 4 Mr. Vigna are making is that when we, again, go back to 5 first principles and look at the complaint and look at 6 the response to the complaint, the response with 7 respect to the WCFU part of the complaint from the 8 respondent is that they are not a proper party, that 9 they shouldn't be -- and, you know, for that reason any 10 allegations made against them are moot from the start. 11 And I find that argument fairly 12 compelling actually because questions with respect to 13 whether, you know, what the contributions were or what 14 the content was or who contributed those contents don't 15 seem to relate at all to the defence that has been put 16 forward with respect to WCFU. 17 And furthermore, I don't have anyone 18 here that is either a representative of WCFU or on 19 their behalf of WCFU. 20 So I see that as a fairly significant 21 issue. 22 Anyway, Mr. Fromm, do you have 23 anything? 24 MR. FROMM: It would streamline the 25 hearings, I think, if, Madam Chairman, you did make a
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1 ruling on, and I think maybe you have gone some 2 distance in that direction as to the status of the part 3 of the complaint that deals with WCFU, and I continue 4 to rely on the Commission's own report which identified 5 WCFU.com and the Western Canada For Us as two websites. 6 Our submission has been consistently that -- that those 7 are the equivalent of 12202 -- whatever the street is 8 out here. It's a street -- 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I read your 10 submissions on 644 Slater Street I think it was. 11 MR. FROMM: Right. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, yes, I 13 understand your position with respect to that. 14 MR. FROMM: So if that were then 15 moved aside, and we are talking about the initial 16 complaint, and if I understand your I guess it was a 17 suggestion that that -- that the complaint be -- or 18 your request for clarification is the complaint limited 19 to the posts that were cited in Mr. Warman's complaint, 20 which I think were five in number by Mr. Bahr, if -- if 21 the complaint is limited to that, then that is 22 certainly something much -- much more compact that I 23 think we can deal with. 24 If it is expanded to all of 25 Mr. Bahr's posts on Stormfront or WCFU that makes it --
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1 still makes it very difficult for us to deal with 2 because does that mean we must go through every one of 3 the posts and discuss it? I continue to ask for 4 clarification. 5 If it is all the threads that either 6 Mr. Bahr started or Mr. Bahr contributed to then I 7 would still be interested to know if there -- an answer 8 to my question as to whether Officer Camp was posting 9 there or under what name to see if in those threads as 10 they developed there was incitement or agitation. 11 As we went through some of the 12 threads the other day we would see that Mr. Bahr would 13 post a newspaper story without comment, and somebody 14 would come on with a comment, somebody else would have 15 another comment. There might be -- maybe there would 16 be some comments that might be inflammatory; other 17 comments were, you know, just more or less people's 18 opinion and so on. This might be helpful in determining 19 what exactly Mr. Bahr had done and what the 20 responsibilities were. 21 I am also glad, if I understood 22 Mr. Warman correctly, to learn that there is not -- we 23 are not going to be told that none of this can be 24 discussed because of an ongoing police investigation 25 because it would have been my submission that in the
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1 case of Mr. Bahr and Western Canada For Us and the 319 2 charges, the investigation has already been complete, 3 we have the fruits of the investigation before us, that 4 would not seem like a very credible excuse. 5 MR. VIGNA: Just to clarify, Madam 6 Chair, so there is no confusion. 7 Western Canada For Us we still 8 maintain is a party to the... 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. I 10 understand. 11 MR. VIGNA: Because from the 12 respondent's perspective I want to make that clear. 13 It is just that we are not going to 14 have Mr. Bahr be associated to Western Canada For Us in 15 terms of liability, but we still continue to maintain 16 that it is a party to this proceeding. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am clear on 18 that. 19 Thank you. 20 MR. VIGNA: Okay. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 22 I am concerned, Mr. Fromm and 23 Mr. Bahr, the suggestion has been, I think what I am 24 hearing from you, is that even though the broader 25 postings are going to be analyzed with respect to
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1 WCFU's liability only, there has been a suggestion that 2 somebody, perhaps Sergeant Camp, didn't just post but 3 played a more integral role in the formulation or the 4 development of the site; and, in particular, what we 5 reviewed on the website was two different elements that 6 Mr. Bahr is being -- is being suggested that he did. 7 The first is posts certainly, and 8 that is just, you know, commentary that goes along; but 9 the other thing that I heard in the last couple of days 10 is that Mr. Bahr also selected topics, took news 11 articles or, you know, different things to start, to 12 initiate the discussion. 13 So he did -- the suggestion is he did 14 two things: He initiated discussions by posting 15 articles, and then he contributed to discussions; and 16 what I am hearing here is that perhaps the themes, 17 perhaps some of these themes were, in fact, encouraged 18 or suggested by a third party, for example, Mr. Camp or 19 Sergeant Camp rather. 20 And so I am saying that that is a 21 relevant inquiry, and I realize, and we have made some 22 inquiries here, and Sergeant Camp may or may not have a 23 statutory excuse or exclusion from asking a particular 24 question, be it under the Canada Evidence Act or some 25 other piece of legislation; however, in the
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1 circumstances, I can no more compel Sergeant Camp to 2 answer questions than I can compel Mr. Bahr to testify. 3 What I can do and what I feel the 4 respondents ought to be entitled to is in the event 5 that a question is not answered, a negative inference, 6 and if the respondent is going to in their evidence 7 lead some evidence that would suggest that Sergeant 8 Camp or some person played an integral role in the 9 development of the site, then I think they are entitled 10 to the benefit of that negative inference, in fairness. 11 So that is what I am thinking at this 12 point. 13 Do you have any other comments? 14 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, for what it 15 is worth, personally as a party I would be concerned 16 with the position that the tribunal does not have the 17 power, does not have a contempt power. I believe that 18 has been exercised in the past by Human Rights 19 tribunals. So just -- 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: M-hmm. I had a 21 discussion with some colleagues at the tribunal last 22 night about that very issue, and it is my position at 23 this point that the power to compel the answers to 24 questions and the jurisdiction in contempt is something 25 that arises out of the equitable jurisdiction of
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1 superior courts and their construction; and unless in 2 the statute you can point to me a provision that gives 3 me that power, I don't -- it is my position that I 4 don't have that jurisdiction. 5 MR. WARMAN: Certainly not something 6 I am going to follow up at this point. Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. 8 So, my goodness, everybody is so 9 quiet. I am used to you all bouncing up and down out 10 of your chairs. 11 All right then. Let us continue. I 12 think you have my direction. The area of relevance is 13 fairly narrow. We have a time period here of October 14 '03 to May '04. The question of the contributions to 15 the content of the WCFU website I rule are relevant 16 questions. 17 So having said that, and that is 18 issue number 1. 19 Issue number 2 is what are we doing 20 at noon? Now I know, Mr. Fromm, you have to leave at 21 noon. I really don't want to stop the proceedings and 22 lose that half day. I am directed under the rules to 23 conclude these hearings as expeditiously as possible. 24 You had suggested yesterday, 25 Mr. Fromm, that Mr. Bahr might be able to conduct some
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1 of the cross-examination in your absence. That is one 2 option. 3 The second option, it seems to me, is 4 to suspend the cross-examination of Sergeant Camp and 5 to have the next witness be brought forward and start 6 on that for the afternoon, at least get some work done 7 there, and then return to the cross-examination of 8 Sergeant Camp on Monday morning. 9 MR. FROMM: Could I have one moment 10 to confer with somebody in the audience? 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course. 12 MR. FROMM: I would prefer, because 13 of what I consider the controversy and really delicate 14 nature of the cross-examination, if you must continue 15 this afternoon it would be Mr. Warman's testimony. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would that be -- is 17 that the next in the order, Mr. Warman? 18 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR. FROMM: And I have been assured 21 that I will have -- one of my colleagues can probably 22 give me a fairly good summary of the evidence. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. 24 So are you content with that, 25 Mr. Warman?
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1 MR. WARMAN: For myself, yes. 2 MR. FROMM: And -- 3 MR. WARMAN: Perhaps the 4 Commission -- 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 6 MR. FROMM: -- through you to 7 Mr. Vigna, how long does he anticipate the evidence 8 lasting? 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Vigna? 10 MR. VIGNA: For Mr. Warman? 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: M-hmm. 12 MR. VIGNA: At least a day. At least 13 a day for our side. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: At least a day. 15 Okay. So we might be able to get that half done this 16 afternoon. 17 MR. VIGNA: The thing is from my 18 understanding then Mr. Camp would have to return on 19 Monday. That is not really the best scenario. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree, but I am 21 concerned, I am concerned with fairness. I mean, I 22 don't know why Mr. Fromm has to leave, but he has told 23 me he had to. 24 In the circumstances I am really 25 sorry, Sergeant, to have to inconvenience you, but I
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1 think that is the best way to suit the ends of fairness 2 and expedition really. 3 MR. FROMM: If I might add. 4 I did clear this with the previous 5 member. This was not sprung on the Thursday afternoon. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did speak to 7 Member Jensen actually last night, and she advised me 8 that she did not make a ruling and that she would not 9 make a ruling and that she would have advised that that 10 would properly be dealt with during the course of this 11 hearing. 12 So memories are a little bit 13 inconsistent, but I did -- I did canvass the question 14 expressly with Member Jensen, and her memory doesn't 15 conform with yours. 16 MR. FROMM: But the point was that 17 this was something that I had anticipated and did not 18 try to, you know, ambush at the last minute. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course. I am 20 not suggesting that. 21 So the only person I haven't 22 canvassed is Sergeant Camp. 23 You aren't going to Aruba on Monday 24 are you? 25 MR. CAMP: No, Madam Chair, I should
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1 be available. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: You would be able? 3 Okay. 4 All right. So that has hopefully 5 cleared up some preliminary matters. 6 So perhaps we can get underway with 7 the hearing. 8 MR. FROMM: So we are going to -- is 9 it your ruling we are going to start with Mr. Warman's 10 evidence now? 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I would 12 like -- we may as well -- we have got Mr. Camp here 13 now. Let us continue the cross-examination until noon 14 when you have to leave, and then we will have our lunch 15 break and come back and hear from Mr. Warman. 16 PREVIOUSLY SWORN: STEPHEN CAMP 17 EXAMINATION (Cont'd) BY MR. FROMM 18 MR. FROMM: Before I take you back to 19 the postings from Stormfront that were contained in 20 HR-3, I was wondering if I could go back to the 21 activities of the Edmonton Police force's hate squad 22 that you headed for several years. 23 Would you have for us the statistics 24 of the -- over the last several years of the number of 25 hate crimes that you record, would you not? You said
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1 you recorded them? 2 MR. CAMP: Do I have them with me? 3 MR. FROMM: Would you know off the 4 top of your head? 5 MR. CAMP: No. I can kind of 6 generalize for you if you like. 7 MR. FROMM: Well, rather than that, 8 would you be able to on Monday bring us the -- you 9 would have filed a report, would you not, with your 10 superiors or with the -- 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, I am not 12 seeing the relevance of that question. Your question 13 is how many hate crimes has the Edmonton Hate Crimes 14 Unit processed since its inception? 15 MR. FROMM: Well, police forces 16 across the country that have hate squads generally put 17 out a report each year. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I expect they 19 do. I don't see how that is relevant though to this 20 inquiry and this complaint. If they did one or 600 21 what would that evidence -- how would it relate -- 22 MR. FROMM: The information might be 23 helpful in submissions I would be making about the -- 24 about the credibility of the witness. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I am --
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1 MR. FROMM: It is a -- I don't mean 2 to pursue it at any great length. I just would like to 3 know what the statistics were. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to 5 allow the -- I am not going to request or require that 6 Sergeant Camp bring statistical documents. 7 If you have some general questions of 8 the kind of activity that the Hate Crime Unit is 9 engaged in maybe we can explore that for a little bit, 10 but I really just don't see the relevance, Mr. Fromm, 11 and I don't see how it goes to credibility. 12 MR. FROMM: All right. For the year 13 2005 how many prosecutions for hate crimes were there 14 in Edmonton? 15 MR. CAMP: For crimes motivated by 16 hate? 2005? Again, I would have to check with the 17 Hate Crimes Unit and check their statistical database. 18 MR. FROMM: Which you wouldn't know 19 for 2004 or 2003? 20 MR. CAMP: I can give you a general 21 idea. 22 I remember the first year I think 23 there was 140, and this is very general, files that 24 came through our unit. I think there was 70 -- like 25 half of them are classified as either a hate crime or a
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1 hate incident. 2 A lot of files come through that a 3 number of our officers may feel is hate motivated or it 4 is an incident of hate because they have a racial slur 5 in it, and those would be files that would be just 6 filed away and not put in our database. 7 So I do remember 2003 half the files 8 were not classified, and it was around 70 to 80 files 9 that came through from -- maybe 60, 70, 80, somewhere 10 in there. 11 MR. FROMM: Could you recall of those 12 70 how many were prosecuted? 13 MR. CAMP: No. Very limited. When 14 it comes to hate crimes, because it is a crime that is 15 very random, in other words, a lot -- most crimes out 16 there you will have some kind of connection between the 17 victim and the accused. 18 With hate crimes the perpetrator is 19 usually trying to send a message out to the community, 20 so it will be a random act of violence or a random act 21 of vandalism; and as far as a connection to the 22 individual, there usually is none except that the 23 person committing the crime has a bias, prejudice or 24 hatred toward the identifying group that they are 25 targeting.
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1 MR. FROMM: So are you saying there 2 would be relatively few of these crimes? 3 MR. CAMP: Yeah. When it comes to 4 hate crimes right across -- internationally there is 5 relatively few prosecutions let alone convictions. 6 Very low percentage. 7 MR. FROMM: And particularly in 8 Edmonton? 9 MR. CAMP: Right. Same applies. 10 MR. FROMM: Thank you. 11 But going back to the -- to HR-3. If 12 you can in a sense remember where we were yesterday. I 13 am now on a page that is 1 of 8, and it is a posting 14 by -- 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, can I 16 stop you for a minute. I think I have left that 17 exhibit in the room. So if I could just have one 18 moment to grab that. 19 --- Pause 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for your 21 patience. 22 Okay. Mr. Fromm, carry on. 23 MR. FROMM: As these are not 24 numbered, I don't know if you can recall where we left 25 off yesterday, but I am looking at page 1 of 8 and the
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1 posting is by Xenologist, X-E-N-O-L. 2 MR. CAMP: If you could show me the 3 front page you are looking at it might be easier -- 4 MR. FROMM: Yeah. It looks like it 5 is about 20 pages into it. 6 MR. CAMP: Okay. 7 MR. FROMM: And it is Xenologist. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have got it. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. CAMP: Okay. 11 MR. FROMM: This was included -- 12 included in the Commission's evidence, was it not? 13 MR. CAMP: Yes. 14 MR. FROMM: Okay. Did you see a 15 problem in this particular posting? I mean, what would 16 you like us to note about it? 17 MR. CAMP: The issue that I had was 18 more of the thread and the post on the thread on 5 of 8 19 by SS-88. 20 MR. FROMM: This is the first item in 21 the thread? 22 MR. CAMP: Right. 23 Again, the reason that is included in 24 the Commission's copy, and, again, I will note that on 25 page 5 of 8 there is a comment by SS-88 that, again,
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1 leads me to believe that he is involved in the 2 development of the website. 3 MR. FROMM: I know it is fairly -- 4 there is a lot of reading, but I assume you are 5 fairly -- you are knowledgeable about it. What is 6 Xenologist's contribution to this? What is the point 7 of Xenologist's posting here? 8 MR. CAMP: You know, when I read 9 through it it looks to be the ideology or philosophy or 10 the mission of Western Canada For Us that, I guess, an 11 idea or to go on to the site, I guess. 12 Basically in the threads during this 13 time there were a lot of discussions from numerous 14 persons on the Canadian discussion board about what to 15 put on the website WCFU, and this is obviously one of 16 them. 17 MR. FROMM: So it would be your 18 testimony that a number of people are having input into 19 the material on the WCFU site? 20 MR. CAMP: Yeah, that's correct. 21 MR. FROMM: And the date of that 22 posting would be what? The Xenologist? 23 MR. CAMP: It looks like March 2, 24 2004. 25 MR. FROMM: In your testimony on page
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1 3 of that thread, that is still in Xenologist's 2 posting, you indicated that you had some problems with 3 the 10 Commandments that seem to be appended to 4 Xenologist's posting; is that correct? 5 MR. CAMP: Yeah. Again, it would 6 peak the interest of me as a hate crime investigator, 7 that is correct. 8 MR. FROMM: Why would that be? 9 How -- 10 MR. CAMP: Basically it looks like 11 Xenologist has posted this and then made a comment at 12 the end of it. That is why it is there. 13 But, I mean, the 10 Commandments 14 would be very -- and, again, it is about a community 15 they want to build on behalf of the WCFU. This, again, 16 is a reference to Whiteville, and it would be very -- a 17 community that is very exclusive to whites only and 18 that would exclude homosexuals. 19 In my experience with reviewing hate 20 sites internationally this is the type of rhetoric that 21 you see. Always look at it as a euphemism of -- it 22 could be a euphemism of ideologies of white supremacy. 23 Again, the problem would be would 24 just peak my interest. It is interesting, something to 25 keep in mind.
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1 Again, the reason the thread is there 2 is not for that; it is more for page 5 of 8 and a 3 posting by SS-88. 4 MR. FROMM: Well, but not to belabour 5 the point, are the 10 Commandments a problem or not? 6 MR. CAMP: There is a couple of the 7 commandments that would peak my interest: Number 1 and 8 number 3. 9 MR. FROMM: We may all be interested 10 in one thing or another, but, I mean, is this a police 11 matter? 12 MR. CAMP: The 10 Commandments? 13 MR. FROMM: Yeah. 14 MR. CAMP: I am not investigating the 15 10 Commandments. I am investigating the WCFU, and this 16 is, again, just another piece of the investigation. 17 MR. FROMM: On page 5 of 8 of that 18 thread there is a posting by Proud 18, and you 19 identified that individual as Peter Kouba yesterday, 20 did you not? 21 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 22 MR. FROMM: And what is your 23 interpretation of Mr. Kouba's role as indicated in his 24 post there? 25 MR. CAMP: That SS-88 knows the
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1 computer better than he does, and he is asking SS-88 2 to, I guess, take an idea that is being talked about 3 and implement it into the website. 4 MR. FROMM: Would you agree that 5 Proud 18 does seem to have some role though in the 6 creation of the website? 7 MR. CAMP: By that post? 8 MR. FROMM: Yes. 9 MR. CAMP: By this post I wouldn't 10 say so. It sounds like he is transferring the 11 responsibility to SS-88 to me. SS-88 you take this 12 one; you know the PC better than me. PC being personal 13 computer. 14 MR. FROMM: Do you know what "this" 15 refers to or "this one" refers to? 16 MR. CAMP: Again, I think it is in 17 regards to the thread here, in proofreading the site 18 and getting the philosophies and ideologies of the WCFU 19 up since the thread is about proofreading the WCFU 20 site. 21 MR. FROMM: Move ahead to page 7 of 22 8. I believe you high -- or the Commission highlighted 23 a post there. Seems to -- by SS-88. 24 MR. CAMP: Right. 25 MR. FROMM: And what -- why was that
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1 highlighted? 2 MR. CAMP: Again, it appears to me 3 that SS-88 is -- has responsibility in regards to the 4 discussions of the ideas for the website. 5 So basically ideas get discussed, he 6 makes the suggested changes to the site, and then again 7 puts out the idea if anyone wants to proofread it to go 8 ahead and proofread it again. 9 MR. FROMM: So would you agree that 10 the WCFU site seems to be in some ways a collaborative 11 effort? 12 MR. CAMP: No. 13 MR. FROMM: No? 14 MR. CAMP: Again, if you note, in the 15 WCFU pages of the website it does mention that all 16 final decisions will be made by the Alberta Chapter, 17 and the Alberta Chapter founder and president is Glenn 18 Bahr. 19 MR. FROMM: Is there any evidence 20 that the -- that the Alberta Chapters -- that the only 21 power in the Alberta Chapter is Glenn Bahr? 22 MR. CAMP: From my investigation it 23 is my opinion that Glenn Bahr is the person, the sole 24 decision-maker, as far as making the final decisions on 25 the content of the site and the graphics, et cetera.
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1 MR. FROMM: But that post though, 2 would you not agree, contradicts what you are saying? 3 MR. CAMP: No. I think it is 4 important for anyone that wants to lead an organization 5 or -- to me it appears that he is trying to get input, 6 which is a good thing if you are going to develop 7 something; but once the input is there he makes the 8 decision what finally to put on the site. 9 That is what I am getting from all of 10 this. Nothing more. Nothing less. 11 MR. FROMM: You would not agree it 12 would seem to be a collaborative effort? 13 MR. CAMP: Again, the ideas for the 14 website, again, there is a discussion about what ideas 15 are out there, but I think the final -- my opinion is 16 the final decision to what goes on the site will be 17 from SS-88. 18 MR. FROMM: Moving ahead to the next 19 series of posts, page 1 of 9 starts -- the first post 20 is Proud 18, which you said was Mr. Kouba? 21 MR. CAMP: Right. 22 MR. FROMM: This is a very extensive 23 document that goes on onto page 5. 24 MR. CAMP: Right. 25 MR. FROMM: Why would this have been
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1 included or did you see this as a problem, this long 2 statement -- 3 MR. CAMP: Again, the thread is 4 included because on page 6 of 9 SS-88 agrees and 5 basically says that Proud 18's post is something that 6 he does not agree with, that it is too much like an 7 attack and too violent; and that, again, as decisions 8 are being made here we need to concentrate more on our 9 goals and the good things we are doing to help our 10 society. 11 So Proud 18 throws out an idea, and 12 SS-88 agrees with other persons that it is not a good 13 idea and states what should be said. 14 That is why that thread is there. 15 MR. FROMM: He says it sounds too 16 much like an attack, it is too violent? 17 MR. CAMP: Right. 18 MR. FROM: That is SS-88, that is his 19 position? 20 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 21 MR. FROMM: I, again, ask you how is 22 that a police matter? 23 MR. CAMP: Again, this thread went to 24 the identity and the -- also went to the opinion that 25 SS-88 is involved in the decision-making process of the
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1 website. That is why that is there. 2 I like the idea that he says it is 3 too violent, the initial philosophies. 4 And again, Madam Chair, I am going to 5 add to that as well. My opinion is based on the 6 completion of the investigation. 7 However, I do agree with Mr. Fromm 8 that at this point we are still putting the pieces 9 together, but when the investigation was done it 10 just -- these posts lead me -- are, again, a piece of 11 the puzzle to the final opinion as a police officer, 12 and Glenn Bahr is the -- is the guy: The president, 13 the founder, the decision-maker. 14 And if you continue the thread on 15 page 8 of 9, and again it continues the point I am 16 trying to highlight here: Good work, very well done, I 17 am going to try to put that on our site tonight. 18 So, again, he -- if you look at the 19 discussion SS-88 has the PC knowledge, SS-88 is saying 20 no to ideas put out by other members, and then decides 21 I am going to put what he decides to put on the site. 22 That is why this thread is there. This goes to 23 ownership of the site. 24 MR. FROMM: If we could flip ahead to 25 the next document, to page 5 of 9. The next document
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1 is the long thread headlined WCFU Needs Web Designer. 2 MR. CAMP: Right. 3 MR. FROMM: And on page 5 of that 4 there is a post by SS-88. 5 MR. CAMP: On page 5? 6 MR. FROMM: Yes. At the bottom of 7 the page. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, I am not 9 finding them. What number is that please? 10 MR. CAMP: Neither am I. 11 MR. FROMM: Actually, it seems to 12 have jumped, but now the headline across the top of the 13 page is ARA Thugs In Bid to Have Volksfront Meeting -- 14 and that trails off. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Yeah. 16 Okay. Good. I am with you there. I was just looking 17 for -- I thought you were saying about editing a 18 website or something. 19 MR. FROMM: That is what I thought 20 too, but that is what page 1 says, but page 5 the story 21 is different. So page 5 seems to say across -- across 22 the top ARA Thugs in Bid to Have Volksfront Meeting, 23 page 5 of 9 and at the bottom of the post by SS-88. 24 MR. CAMP: Just to clarify, that is 25 not from the same thread. The initial thread by --
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1 that was referred to that ends, and this is just a page 2 of a thread that was copied. 3 MR. FROMM: Okay. The one I am 4 interested in though is this page 5 of 9 across the top 5 ARA Thugs. 6 MR. CAMP: Right. 7 MR. FROMM: In the -- in the post at 8 the bottom of the page by SS-88 could you read the -- 9 this is about nine lines down after Speakers. Could 10 you read the -- the several sentences after that. 11 MR. CAMP: Okay. 12 Any way, these ARA have been hacking 13 into our e-mails, computers and MSN accounts and 14 stealing info. They posted posters of me with all my 15 personal info and a paragraph of lies all over my 16 community. 17 MR. FROMM: Read to the end of the 18 post. 19 MR. CAMP: 20 I was evicted and lost my job because 21 of it. We made all the papers up here. Any way, the 22 R.C.M.P. are looking at whether I can file charges 23 against them. They are taking their sweet time too. 24 Check out the Canada section on this board for all the 25 details. Any way, the fight goes on. WCFU.
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1 MR. FROMM: This post is dated what? 2 MR. CAMP: March 5, 2004. 3 MR. FROMM: So there is a complaint 4 in here among other things that -- by SS-88 that our 5 e-mails, computers and MSN accounts are being hacked 6 and stealing info and a complaint is being made to the 7 R.C.M.P.? 8 MR. CAMP: Right. 9 MR. FROMM: Would you know where the 10 R.C.M.P., like what detachment that would be? 11 MR. CAMP: It would probably be the 12 one in Red Deer. 13 MR. FROMM: You said you had been in 14 touch with I think you called them -- you mentioned his 15 name is Sergeant Larocque or -- 16 MR. CAMP: Corporal Larocque. 17 MR. FROMM: Corporal Larocque. And 18 that is French, right? Would the spelling be 19 L-A-R-O-C-Q-U-E for the Court Reporter? 20 MR. CAMP: Sure. I don't have his 21 documents here so... 22 MR. FROMM: I think from memory that 23 is the way you spelled it in your report. 24 But did you inquire, having seen this 25 on Stormfront and following the activities of SS-88,
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1 did you inquire of the R.C.M.P. in Red Deer about this 2 computer hacking business? 3 MR. CAMP: No, sir. 4 MR. FROMM: Can you explain why? 5 MR. CAMP: I wasn't investigating a 6 computer hacking offence in Red Deer. 7 MR. FROMM: But you -- well, you -- 8 MR. CAMP: And also it says right 9 here that the R.C.M.P. in Red Deer are going to be 10 investigating on behalf of Glenn Bahr in their 11 jurisdiction. 12 MR. FROMM: Is that the way -- the 13 way you read this post what is it the R.C.M.P. are 14 apparently investigating? 15 MR. CAMP: It appears that Glenn Bahr 16 went to the R.C.M.P. because of this incident, and they 17 are investigating to see whether charges can be filed 18 against the ARA. 19 MR. FROMM: As you understand it what 20 incident are the R.C.M.P. investigating? 21 MR. CAMP: Again, I can't speak for 22 the R.C.M.P. 23 MR. FROMM: No, I am not asking for 24 your interpretation -- 25 MR. CAMP: I can -- right.
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1 Again, there is nothing by the 2 R.C.M.P. in here to be interpretated. All I know is 3 that -- or to interpret -- that Glenn Bahr is 4 complaining about being hacked and he has gone to the 5 R.C.M.P. with it. That is all I can see from this post 6 here. 7 MR. FROMM: All right. You 8 testified -- now this is 5th of March. You have been 9 monitoring Glenn Bahr since sometime the previous year, 10 and WCFU begins to take shape. 11 Here you have information from their 12 computers, that would seem to be WCFU but certainly 13 Bahr's computer, MSN accounts, e-mails are being hacked 14 and stolen. 15 Would this not, in your opinion, 16 taint the type of postings that might be occurring? He 17 is saying he is being hacked or whether or not that is 18 true, you didn't inquire, you didn't ask the R.C.M.P.? 19 MR. WARMAN: Objection, Madam Chair. 20 What the sentence actually says is, 21 Any way, these ARA have been hacking 22 into our e-mails, computers and MSN accounts and 23 stealing info. 24 There is no information in there 25 whatsoever about false postings.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Goes on to say, 2 They posted posters of me with all my 3 personal info and a paragraph of lies all over my 4 community. 5 MR. WARMAN: But, Madam Chair, that 6 doesn't really -- 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it doesn't -- 8 yes, I agree. 9 So maybe if you could rephrase that 10 question, Mr. Fromm. 11 The e-mail does speak for itself, so 12 if you are going to characterize it I would ask you to 13 do it as accurately as you can. 14 MR. FROMM: That is what I was trying 15 to -- I mean, it is susceptible to two interpretations, 16 Madam Chair. 17 The R.C.M.P. are looking at whether I 18 can file charges. Does that mean they are looking to 19 file -- whether I can file charges that my computer is 20 being hacked or whether I can file charges that false 21 information is being posted all over my community, and 22 I have lost my job, and I have been evicted from my 23 apartment. 24 I was wondering if Sergeant Camp had 25 an interpretation of that?
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the e-mail 2 speaks for itself. Sergeant Camp didn't draft this 3 e-mail, and so he doesn't have any information, and I 4 don't know that his interpretation of this is going to 5 be any more helpful to me than my own read of it. 6 MR. FROMM: So just to clarify, your 7 testimony is that having read this you did not contact 8 the R.C.M.P. in Red Deer to inquire what they knew? 9 MR. CAMP: That is right. 10 MR. FROMM: You had contacted the 11 R.C.M.P. in Red Deer though earlier to find out what 12 they knew about Glenn Bahr? That was your testimony? 13 MR. CAMP: Right. It was not about 14 Glenn Bahr. It was about the Kneehill community hall 15 rally that was upcoming for late February, and what the 16 R.C.M.P. told me was that they had spoken to Glenn 17 Bahr. I was concerned about the rally. 18 MR. FROMM: Why would an Edmonton 19 Policeman be concerned about a rally in Red Deer? 20 MR. CAMP: As mentioned in previous 21 testimony, a number of persons that were posting on 22 Stormfront Canadian discussion appeared to be from 23 Edmonton because there was references to Edmonton on 24 their posts. 25 MR. FROMM: So your testimony is from
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1 some of the posts it looked as though some people from 2 Edmonton might be going to the rally in Red Deer? 3 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 4 And like I had previously testified 5 as well, one of our man -- part of our mandate in the 6 Hate Crime Unit is to network with police, law 7 enforcement agencies, not only across Alberta but 8 across Canada and internationally as well in regards to 9 these issues, not Glenn Bahr issues, but, you know, 10 hate issues, hate ideologies, extremism. 11 So when we see members of a hate site 12 discussing, I guess, hate on Stormfront, and that they 13 are going to have a rally in Red Deer, we will talk to 14 Red Deer about that rally in late February. 15 And, again, it wasn't -- Corporal 16 Larocque was the one that told me that he is the one 17 that spoke to Glenn Bahr. It was just the way it was. 18 I mean, if there is any problem with 19 Glenn Bahr's computer in Red Deer, if he feels that he 20 has issues, then he did the proper thing: He went to 21 the R.C.M.P. He wouldn't come to the Edmonton City 22 Police, he would go to the R.C.M.P. and talk to them 23 about his personal computer being hacked or his e-mails 24 being hacked. 25 If he had phoned me I would direct
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1 him to the R.C.M.P. in Red Deer. That would be my -- 2 it would not be my mandate to discuss the file with him 3 in Edmonton if it was a Red Deer file. 4 MR. FROMM: So your testimony is that 5 when you heard that there -- when you learned that 6 there would be a rally in Red Deer you contacted the 7 R.C.M.P. and spoke to Corporal Larocque; but when you 8 read further that there were issues of hacking and 9 postings and so on this -- this was no longer of any 10 interest -- 11 MR. WARMAN: Well, he said -- 12 THE COURT REPORTER: I can only write 13 one at a time, I am sorry, gentlemen. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, that 15 question has been asked of Sergeant Camp and answered. 16 Would you move on please. 17 MR. FROMM: Would it be fair to say 18 that this material and the report that you provided, 19 the police report provided, I guess, in the 319 charges 20 indicated that you were compiling postings as evidence 21 against Glenn Bahr and WCFU and perhaps others? 22 MR. CAMP: I don't understand the 23 question. I was compiling evidence because there was 24 times during the course of these months where I wasn't 25 compiling evidence. There was no site that was up.
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1 Like the Stormfront.org ones, they 2 are interesting and there is talk of a site being 3 developed, but, I mean, there is no criminal 4 investigation at this time until the site is up and 5 running. 6 So I found these postings as a hate 7 crimes investigator interesting and of concern to me 8 because of what I thought may be coming. 9 MR. FROMM: Considering what you just 10 said there, this information about possible hacking and 11 tampering with -- with communications, this not concern 12 you that this might taint the -- the continuing chain 13 of evidence? 14 MR. CAMP: Again, if there is a 15 criminal complaint that Bahr wants to file with the 16 police agency he is more than welcome to -- 17 MR. FROMM: Well, you are monitoring 18 people. Bahr may or may not have filed a complaint, 19 but you now have information that computers are 20 being -- Bahr's computer, perhaps other computers, are 21 being hacked and e-mail accounts. Were you not 22 concerned that perhaps further information apparently 23 coming from Bahr might not be his? 24 MR. CAMP: If Glenn Bahr -- 25 MR. WARMAN: Objection. Again, it is
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1 mischaracterization. 2 The e-mail in question -- the posting 3 by SS-88 clearly states hacking into our e-mails, 4 computers and MSN accounts and stealing info. There is 5 nothing there about false information being posted, and 6 Mr. Fromm is continually trying to mischaracterize what 7 the posting states. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree, 9 Mr. Fromm. I think this e-mail speaks for itself. 10 MR. FROMM: I seek your direction on 11 this, Madam Chairman. Sergeant Bahr continuously 12 characterizes -- 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, who, 14 sir? 15 MR. FROMM: Sorry. Sorry. 16 Sergeant Camp continuously 17 characterizes postings on Stormfront and WCFU as hate, 18 and none of that has been established. I think the 19 testimony is -- is highly prejudicial. He said he had 20 been monitoring hate postings, and at this point nobody 21 had been charged with anything. I think this is... 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not my 23 understanding of Sergeant Camp's evidence. 24 MR. CAMP: That is correct. I 25 never -- I am monitoring information. I never -- I am
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1 not saying I am monitoring hate, especially on -- there 2 is hate on Stormfront, but, again, I keep bringing you 3 back to this. 4 On the Stormfront downloads here it 5 is about who is controlling -- who is the controlling 6 mind behind WCFU website and who is SS-88. 7 I mean, I am looking at the posts 8 that we continue to go through, and most of the stuff I 9 am looking at Stormfront is not hate. I mean, the one 10 that you just referred to I don't see any hate on 11 there. I don't think there has been any hate on the 12 Stormfront download ones since you have been 13 cross-examining me this morning. 14 MR. FROMM: Okay. If we could move 15 ahead to the next page in that. Move ahead to the next 16 page in that bundle. Page 1 of 7. 17 This is headlined Nation Wide Zundel 18 Protest March 28th, and you -- or this was included in 19 the bundle here? 20 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 21 MR. FROMM: First posting is by 22 SS-88. I direct you to the final paragraph. I was 23 wondering if you might read that for us, the WCFU? 24 MR. CAMP: Right. 25 WCFU will have 40 plus members
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1 protesting and the media will be there as well. We are 2 trying to contact as many people we know in other 3 provinces and getting their support. One of our 4 members will be videotaping our protests and it will be 5 viewable on our website shortly after. There will be a 6 donation box at our meet for Ernst Zundel's defence 7 fund. There will also be one at our protest for people 8 passing by to donate. 9 MR. FROMM: Okay. That is fine. 10 The -- why was this posting included? 11 Did you see any problems as a police officer with the 12 planned activity here? 13 MR. CAMP: Are you asking me if there 14 is a problem with the posts or are you asking me the 15 second question? Which one would you like me to 16 answer -- 17 MR. FROMM: No. Well, the post was 18 included either by you or by the Commission. I am 19 interested in asking you do you have any problems with 20 the plans as outlined in the paragraph you just read? 21 MR. CAMP: No. 22 MR. FROMM: As a police officer? 23 Thank you. 24 MR. CAMP: Oh, the protest plans are 25 not an issue. They were very peaceful actually.
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1 Again, this post is put there, again, 2 in regards to trying to show that Glenn Bahr is the 3 founder and president of the WCFU. 4 MR. FROMM: The next post is 1 of 3. 5 Edit or add to Whiteville article. 6 MR. CAMP: Right. 7 MR. FROMM: Posted by SS-88? 8 MR. CAMP: Right. 9 MR. FROMM: This deals with -- 10 apparently with plans for Whiteville? 11 MR. CAMP: Right. 12 MR. FROMM: What interpretation do 13 you give to the first paragraph? Anyone... 14 MR. CAMP: Again, as the other posts 15 that are similar to this, SS-88 is soliciting input 16 from the participants on this Canadian discussion forum 17 in regards to the ideas for Whiteville before it is 18 posted on the site. 19 MR. FROMM: It is more than just 20 input though, isn't it, Sergeant Camp? 21 MR. CAMP: No. 22 MR. FROMM: Does he not say edit or 23 add to this article? 24 MR. CAMP: I would put that as input. 25 Like if you are editing and put some ideas in, go right
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1 ahead, he is asking, and the information that SS-88 2 gets is -- from what I am seeing from this, not the 3 other posts, is that he is looking for input and -- 4 which is a good idea from the participants. Everybody 5 has a good idea to add to the ideas for Whiteville 6 before it is finally posted. 7 MR. FROMM: Could you read the first 8 sentence of the final paragraph on that page? 9 MR. CAMP: 10 This will not be connected to 11 Whiteville. 12 MR. FROMM: No. 13 What one does in their own home. 14 MR. CAMP: You want me to read the 15 first paragraph? 16 MR. FROMM: No, the first sentence of 17 the last paragraph. 18 MR. CAMP: 19 What one does in their own home is up 20 to them. However, out in the community we will not 21 support cross burnings, Nazi flags or any other white 22 power symbols. 23 MR. FROMM: From your extensive 24 investigation of what you call white supremacists and 25 neo-Nazis does this look to be like a typical neo-Nazi
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1 proposal? 2 MR. CAMP: Yes. A lot of neo-Nazis 3 when they are trying to show themselves better in the 4 public light will dress professional, for example, or 5 they will say if we are going to go to this rally let's 6 not wear the neo-Nazi garb like the braces, the boots 7 and don't show your swastikas because they want to 8 endear or obtain some kind of credibility with the 9 public. 10 So in the -- I guess on the 11 international websites of hate you see this kind of 12 rhetoric a fair amount. 13 And what is also true is that there 14 is also a lot of heated discussion between -- the 15 neo-Nazi groups and the white supremacists become 16 factionalized where you will have some of them 17 believing in, look, we have national socialists white 18 supremacy ideas, but we should dress professional and 19 go political with it; other ones will say, no, we are 20 neo-Nazis, we are skinheads, we are going to fight for 21 and be soldiers for the cause, and they will want to 22 wear the Nazi garb. 23 So this is typical rhetoric. 24 MR. FROMM: Would you allow for a 25 third possibility that --
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1 MR. CAMP: Always open -- 2 MR. FROMM: -- he is not neo-Nazi? I 3 mean, he does seem to be saying here he doesn't want 4 cross burnings or flags or white power symbols. Is 5 that not supposed to be their own community, 6 Whiteville? 7 MR. CAMP: Are you asking me if I 8 think SS-88 at this time is a neo-Nazi because if you 9 are putting it in the context of my investigation I 10 would have to say that SS-88 is a neo-Nazi. 11 MR. FROMM: Okay. If you could move 12 ahead to page -- well, to the page 1 of 4, and this is 13 logged Free Ernst Zundel Rallies Toronto and Edmonton 14 March 28th, and this was a post by SS-88 and about 15 the -- a rally that occurred in Edmonton. 16 MR. CAMP: Right. 17 MR. FROMM: And reading over the 18 content of that post did that accord with your 19 investigation, that account of the rally? 20 MR. CAMP: Could you kind of clarify 21 the question please. 22 MR. FROMM: Okay. 23 Well, the gist of the report is that 24 there were 30 support of all ages, and they handed out 25 pamphlets and cards, and I guess it is a judgment call
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1 whether it was a great success or not, but the report 2 seems to be of a gathering and -- that was peaceful. 3 Was that your -- 4 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 5 MR. FROMM: You investigated? You 6 were present? 7 MR. CAMP: That is right. 8 MR. FROMM: All right. 9 And there are further pictures of it. 10 And so then if we could then flip 11 ahead to the next posting, which is 4 of 5, and this is 12 entitled "Is the WCFU site down", and I think you 13 called our attention to the fact that after Mr. Bahr's 14 residence was raided at that time he promised you he 15 would shut down his WCFU site, and was that what he 16 told you? 17 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 18 MR. FROMM: And I believe you 19 testified that the next day he did shut it down; is 20 that correct? 21 MR. CAMP: That is right. 22 MR. FROMM: And as I think you took 23 us through the fact there were a number of people 24 writing what is happening, et cetera? 25 MR. CAMP: Right.
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1 MR. FROMM: Very last post on that 2 page is from somebody named Pogue Mahone. 3 You have identified a number of the 4 people who posted. Would you happen to know who Pogue 5 Mahone is? 6 MR. CAMP: Okay. I have lost you 7 here. Sorry. 8 MR. FROMM: Okay. It is page 4 of 5 9 in the -- in the thread: Is the WCFU site down. 10 MR. CAMP: Right. 11 MR. FROMM: And there -- many people 12 post, and they are asking questions or saying they are 13 going to contact Glenn, but the last post there is by 14 somebody named Pogue P-O-G-U-E Mahone M-A-H-O-N-E. 15 MR. CAMP: Oh, okay. 16 MR. FROMM: I don't know if that is 17 considered my testifying but that's Gallic. 18 MR. CAMP: Got you. 19 MR. FROMM: It is Gallic for 20 something rather vulgar. 21 MR. CAMP: Okay. 22 MR. FROMM: Would you know who Pogue 23 Mahone was -- is? 24 MR. CAMP: No. 25 MR. FROMM: I was just wondering if I
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1 could have a moment to shuffle through these notes. 2 I believe it is HR-8, but that is 3 the -- or what was that? Tab 8. That was the -- your 4 investigation report. 5 MR. CAMP: Okay. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: In my copy Tab 8 is 7 HR-2. 8 MR. FROMM: Okay. HR-2. 9 This report here, could you identify 10 what it is? It is a three-page report entitled 11 "Investigations". 12 MR. CAMP: This is Tab 8? 13 MR. FROMM: Yes, it was at Tab 8, but 14 I guess that is -- you said it is HR-2? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: M-hmm. So what I 16 have at Tab 8 in the binder, which is HR-2, is Sergeant 17 Camp's report. So I think maybe we are looking at 18 different documents. 19 MR. FROMM: I don't know. I think 20 there are actually several reports. 21 The one I have is called 22 "Investigations", and deals with the arrest of Glenn 23 Bahr in Langley. It is a three-page report dated 2 -- 24 December 3, 2005. 25 MR. VIGNA: I don't think it was
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1 produced. That report existed but -- but I don't think 2 it was -- 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh. We might need 4 to enter that as an exhibit, Mr. Fromm. Perhaps if you 5 could show Madam Registrar we will see if we recognize 6 it. 7 Mr. Fromm, could you check, if you 8 were to check Tabs 9 and 10 of the binder that might be 9 what you are referring to. 10 MR. FROMM: It doesn't really matter. 11 I can come to this later. 12 Okay. HR-2. How would you 13 characterize this document that appears to list the 14 accused and witnesses? What would you call that 15 document? 16 MR. CAMP: A police report. 17 MR. FROMM: Sorry? 18 MR. CAMP: A police report. 19 MR. FROMM: A police report. 20 Why is it that the address of 21 Mr. Bahr is there but the addresses of all the other 22 people in this list are not? 23 MR. VIGNA: Madam Chair, I can answer 24 that. 25 The addresses were blotched by
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1 myself. When I introduced it I had explained that the 2 dark print on the addresses, that was myself that 3 erased it for reasons I gave at the -- at the time the 4 document was introduced. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I remember. 6 Thank you, Mr. Vigna. 7 MR. FROMM: Then in interests of 8 fairness I would request that -- that this document 9 have Mr. Bahr's particulars blocked out too. 10 Everybody else is simply identified 11 by name either as a witness or accused. It seems to me 12 to be unfair and prejudicial that everything about 13 Mr. Bahr is there but everybody else there is just a 14 name. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, we 16 canvassed the question of a publication ban right at 17 the commencement of the hearing, and it is something 18 that you weren't interested in pursuing, and so there 19 isn't a publication ban. I can't sort of do it in bits 20 and pieces. 21 I would observe that going through 22 these documents Mr. Bahr's address appears more than 23 one time in more than one document. 24 I am going to deny that request. 25 MR. FROMM: Well then, can I ask it a
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1 different way? Could I ask Mr. Vigna to provide us 2 with an unmagic-markered copy of this document? 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Vigna? 4 MR. VIGNA: Madam Chair, there is no 5 reason for us to provide the addresses of the 6 witnesses. There is no compelling the arguments made 7 in support of that, so I don't see why we need to 8 disclose that kind of confidential -- 9 MR. FROMM: Just equity and fairness. 10 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair -- 11 MR. VIGNA: I would like to hear the 12 arguments for such a request. 13 MR. WARMAN: The document has already 14 been entered as an exhibit. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. 16 Mr. Fromm? 17 MR. FROMM: The reasons are very 18 clear: Equity and fairness. 19 Mr. Bahr is only - and this is the 20 319 case - is only at this point an accused. Unless 21 the laws of the land are being changed overnight -- 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, this is 23 an adjudication of a Human Rights complaint. 24 MR. FROMM: Yes. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Our restrictions
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1 here are many, but one of them is relevance, and if you 2 can explain to me why you need to have the personal 3 information of these other individuals and how it 4 relates to the complaint I think that is the first 5 hurdle that we need to deal with before we go any 6 further. 7 MR. FROMM: As far as I can tell this 8 piece of evidence has virtually nothing to do with this 9 complaint. It has been testified that Mr. Bahr was 10 arrested. I don't think anybody disputes that. 11 This document simply provides 12 information about him and witnesses in another case, 13 not witnesses in this case. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm, this 15 document has been entered as an exhibit. If you want 16 to address the character, I guess, of this exhibit in 17 your submissions on close, that is fine; but the 18 document is in evidence, and so let us carry on. 19 MR. FROMM: The next document in 20 that -- in this exhibit is entitled "Willful Promotion 21 of Hatred Section 319", and it is dated May 7, 2004. 22 Could you identify exactly what this 23 document is, Sergeant Camp? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are we still 25 in Tab 8? I'm just trying to --
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1 MR. FROMM: Yes. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it is the -- 3 MR. FROMM: The next document there 4 says -- 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so the fifth 6 page in document HR-2? 7 MR. FROMM: Yes, 5 of 32. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. 9 MR. CAMP: Again, it is part of the 10 police report. 11 MR. FROMM: A report on what? 12 MR. CAMP: Well, the entire Tab 8 is 13 a police report. This is part of it. It is page 5. 14 MR. FROMM: On page 6 of 32 at the 15 bottom there is a section that begins Bail. 16 MR. CAMP: Right. 17 MR. FROMM: And could you just 18 refresh our memories as to what that refers to? 19 MR. CAMP: When an accused is 20 arrested they can speak to a Justice in regards to 21 obtaining bail or whether they can be released pending 22 trial, and the Justice will make a decision on whether 23 to remand the accused in custody, release the accused 24 on conditions, release the accused on cash bail, 25 release the accused on recognizance, for example, with
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1 conditions. 2 MR. FROMM: And in your experience on 3 the Edmonton Police force have you been involved in a 4 number of cases of people being charged and having -- 5 and going for bail? 6 MR. CAMP: That is correct. 7 MR. FROMM: And have you frequently 8 been involved in making recommendations as to what the 9 police should seek in terms -- what their position 10 should be in terms of bail? 11 MR. CAMP: That is right. 12 MR. FROMM: And the information 13 contained on -- well, beginning on the bottom of page 6 14 of 32 continuing on 7, on the top of 8 of 32, were 15 these your recommendations in terms of bail for 16 Mr. Bahr? 17 MR. CAMP: The recommendations are 18 starting at page 7 number 1 and moving over to 19 number -- page number 8, and you will see number 2 and 20 3. Three recommendations. 21 MR. FROMM: Did you appear before the 22 Justice of the Peace in Mr. Bahr's bail hearing? 23 MR. CAMP: No. 24 MR. FROMM: Which officer did? 25 MR. CAMP: I don't know. It is not
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1 protocol for the arresting officer to appear on bail. 2 They prepare the conditions, bring them down to the 3 arrest processing unit, and another officer will appear 4 and read over the bail conditions to the JP that is 5 presiding. 6 MR. FROMM: Did you communicate with 7 the officer who would be appearing at the bail hearing? 8 MR. CAMP: I may have. I can't 9 remember if I did or not. 10 MR. FROMM: Would he have had your 11 recommendations or report here? 12 MR. CAMP: Yeah. He would have had 13 the -- pages -- 1 probably to all the way up to page 10 14 of the report. 15 MR. FROMM: Was your recommendation 16 that Mr. Bahr be denied bail? 17 MR. CAMP: I am sorry? 18 MR. FROMM: Was your recommendation 19 that Mr. Bahr be denied bail? 20 MR. CAMP: Yeah. The first sentence 21 on -- underneath "Bail" on page 6 recommends that Glenn 22 Bahr be remanded in custody for the following reasons. 23 So we did put down the primary 24 recommendation to remand him. 25 MR. FROMM: Would you agree that a
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1 charge -- that Section 319 refers to expressions of 2 opinions, not acts of violence? 3 MR. CAMP: I'm sorry? 4 MR. FROMM: Section 319 under which 5 Mr. Bahr is charged refers to expressions of opinions 6 rather than acts of violence? 7 MR. VIGNA: Madam Chair, I don't see 8 the relevance of -- 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I have 10 allowed you some latitude dealing with the matter of 11 bail in a criminal proceeding, but I am having trouble 12 seeing the relevance of your line of questions to the 13 complaint that we are dealing with in this forum. 14 MR. FROMM: In the long term, Madam 15 Chairman, it will go to the credibility of this 16 witness. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: How? 18 MR. FROMM: Could I ask that the 19 witness be excluded? 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is 21 appropriate. 22 Sergeant Camp, would you? 23 --- Sergeant Camp steps down 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fromm? 25 MR. FROMM: It would be my submission
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1 that the witness has a serious animosity to Mr. Bahr 2 that is extraordinary in a -- on a charge that is 3 non-violent. It is inconsistent with the practices in 4 other jurisdictions across Canada in the 319 charges 5 for the accused to -- for the recommendation that the 6 accused be held without bail. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: And if there is 8 animus what does that go to? 9 MR. FROMM: Well, the animus goes to 10 the credibility of the witness' evidence. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: And in what 12 respects is his credibility at issue? 13 MR. FROMM: Among other things, the 14 question I was asking this morning. 15 When there was evidence -- he has 16 been dogging Mr. Bahr for -- from sometime in 2003, 17 reading his posts, watching for the formation of 18 Western Canada For Us, and then in February there is 19 this post by SS-88 that websites are -- websites in the 20 internet communications are being -- are being hacked 21 and information -- 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Said that was in 23 March, I think, but anyway, carry on. 24 MR. FROMM: Okay, in March, and he 25 testifies that this was of no interest to him, it was
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1 just the fact that Mr. Bahr -- 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Just -- what 3 does the credibility go to? Are you suggesting that 4 Sergeant Camp has animus toward Mr. Bahr, and so what? 5 Like what did he do that is relevant to the complaint 6 here? 7 MR. FROMM: Well, among other things, 8 because of the animus, and this -- this has not yet 9 been in evidence exactly -- when he arrested 10 Mr. Bahr -- sorry, when he executed the warrant against 11 Mr. Bahr in May of 2004 he threatened the woman he was 12 living with. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I know, I 14 know, but what, if you are -- you are suggesting that 15 there is a credibility issue here, okay. So that is -- 16 and that is why you want to explore these areas, and I 17 have read them in your submissions. 18 But what is it that you are alleging 19 that Sergeant Camp did that is relevant to this 20 complaint? The complaint is what we described this 21 morning, and the responses that I have heard is I 22 didn't make these posts or all of them, and even if I 23 did, the content doesn't violate Section 13. 24 MR. FROMM: That is true. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: So how, tell me
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1 where Sergeant Camp fits in to that -- 2 MR. FROMM: Well, Sergeant Camp 3 testifies that when he executed the warrant Mr. Bahr 4 said I take complete responsibility for the WCFU site. 5 What I will be hoping eventually to elicit from him is 6 that this was done under the threat -- the time 7 sequence is very important. In his report he says 8 Mr. Bahr was cautioned and he made these admissions -- 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you want to be 10 able to challenge Sergeant Camp on the question of 11 whether or not Mr. Bahr told him that he was associated 12 with or the president of WCFU. So that is one thing 13 you want to -- 14 MR. FROMM: No. No. He -- he -- 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because that is in 16 your documentation. 17 MR. FROMM: He tells -- he says that 18 Mr. Bahr said I am entirely responsible for the WCFU 19 site. It is all my doing and -- and Mr. Bahr was 20 responding to a threat that was made to take away 21 his -- the lady's with whom he was living child. That 22 was a threat made by Sergeant that he was -- Sergeant 23 Camp. He was going to call child services with a view 24 to removing her, and that is in his report. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I have read
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1 that. 2 My question to you is not what is the 3 evidence of animus, but what is the consequence? Like 4 so what? If there is animus what is it that you are 5 suggesting, that he is lying about what Mr. Bahr told 6 him at the arrest? That appears to be one thing. 7 MR. FROMM: Well, it -- it certainly 8 taints, that if I can show animus it would certainly 9 strengthen the argument that he essentially coerced the 10 submission. The only way Mr. Bahr could -- felt he 11 could extricate his -- 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please don't 13 summarize that again. I am trying to get to the nature 14 of why it is you feel it is appropriate to be 15 challenging the credibility of the sergeant, and so far 16 I have heard that you want to be in a position to argue 17 that Sergeant Camp misrepresented Mr. Bahr's statements 18 on arrest. Okay. That is one thing. 19 What is the next thing that you want 20 to -- that is relevant from -- and why you are going to 21 deal with credibility? What is the other allegation 22 that you are going to be making with respect to 23 Sergeant Camp? 24 MR. FROMM: Well, the allegation is 25 that this animus has tainted the entire investigation.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: How? Like you need 2 to be able to demonstrate for me what the relevance is 3 of challenging Sergeant Camp's credibility, and so far 4 you have identified one, and that is that he would be 5 likely to misrepresent what he was told by Mr. Bahr. 6 Is there anything else? 7 MR. FROMM: Well, not necessarily 8 just misrepresent, but because of this animosity, force 9 Mr. Bahr into an admission that may not have been true. 10 I think there is considerable evidence we have -- we 11 have pointed to already that other people were involved 12 in the WCFU site, that there was more of a 13 collaborative effort than a one man show, but 14 Mr. Bahr -- and the statement was -- was made by 15 Sergeant Camp that Mr. Bahr took complete 16 responsibility for it, and it is my submission that 17 if -- if we can see a pattern of animosity and 18 hostility that perhaps our submission would be more 19 credible. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what parts of 21 that submission? The fact that -- now just hang on. I 22 am going to deal with Mr. Fromm here. 23 The fact that now perhaps that 24 Mr. Bahr's statement was coerced when he was being 25 arrested --
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1 MR. FROMM: Yes. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: And is there 3 another allegation that -- of misconduct that you are 4 going to be making with respect to Sergeant Camp? 5 MR. FROMM: Well, because we don't 6 have the answers to some of the questions we have 7 asked, I am reluctant to, you know, to go -- to make a 8 direct allegation, but there was -- there were 9 postings, in our submission, that were -- were not -- 10 were apparently made by Mr. Bahr, but he did not 11 make -- I am not saying Sergeant Camp made them, but 12 that there was highly inflammatory material put up on 13 the WCFU site that Mr. Bahr denies responsibility for, 14 and the entire -- the entire prosecution -- 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there any 16 evidence, because I have not read this anywhere in your 17 submissions, that Sergeant Camp had the power to get in 18 and pretend he is somebody else on the website? Is 19 there -- because I am not seeing that as an 20 allegation -- 21 MR. FROMM: Oh, yes, it would be 22 within the -- we heard the testimony of -- well, we 23 heard the -- we heard the recording -- the -- the 24 Warren show that was played by the Commission and a 25 fellow by the name Helmut-Harry Loewen who is an
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1 activist in Winnipeg, said he agreed with Warren that 2 it was very easy to trick your way or to get onto the 3 site and set up a persona -- 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but then that 5 is not an issue. I mean, clearly coming in and 6 posting, but the allegation that you appear to be 7 making is that Sergeant Camp by reason of animus was 8 able to -- was able to -- 9 MR. FROMM: He Certainly was able 10 to -- 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Was able to post as 12 Glenn or SS-88. Is there any evidence of that because 13 if you are going to be making that suggestion there has 14 got to be something. 15 MR. FROMM: Well, I can't make that 16 accusation that it was Sergeant Camp who did it. 17 It is our submission somebody did it. 18 Whether it was him or somebody else or somebody with 19 ARA or -- we are not in a position to say that. 20 We are saying that somebody was 21 posting -- was posting highly inflammatory and 22 mischievous and perhaps even posts that were contrary 23 to Section 13(1). 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Warman? 25 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, perhaps
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1 Mr. Fromm can simply ask Sergeant Camp did you make 2 postings under Glenn Bahr's identity. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I am inclined 4 to agree with you, Mr. Warman. 5 All right. I do have a concern with 6 this line of questioning. I don't want to unfairly 7 impede Mr. Fromm's appropriate latitude, but in the 8 circumstances I have got your submissions now, 9 Mr. Fromm. 10 If I understand them, you feel it is 11 appropriate to attack the sergeant's credibility for 12 two reasons: First that to bolster, I suppose, a 13 suggestion that an admission made by Mr. Bahr was 14 coerced; and secondly, that the sergeant may, in fact, 15 have found a way to pretend he was Mr. Bahr on the 16 internet and make postings on his behalf. 17 Is that -- 18 MR. FROMM: Yes. As long as that 19 latter is -- is understood as might. This is not 20 our -- 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be 22 leading any evidence that would suggest that somebody 23 like Sergeant Camp could get that kind of power within 24 the website? 25 MR. FROMM: Yes. The -- our expert
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1 witness will be explaining how that can be done. I am 2 sorry, I can't. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: So those are the 4 two reasons -- 5 MR. FROMM: Yes, that is correct. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. 7 What I am going to do is break for 8 lunch now. I realize that you are not going to be here 9 this afternoon, and so we will deal with this at the 10 commencement of the continuation of Sergeant Camp's 11 examination. 12 MR. FROMM: Would I be -- could I 13 have your indulgence for just a moment please. 14 Because I know we can't have the 15 transcripts like for Monday, and I want to be sure I 16 understand, I am aware of what was said this afternoon, 17 I was wondering if this gentleman here would be able to 18 sit with Mr. Bahr, and together they can take notes. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course. 20 MR. FROMM: Because I would like some 21 pretty extensive notes if possible. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course. 23 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, my only 24 request would be that the individual who is going to be 25 sitting at counsel table be identified.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I agree, and 2 we will know who you are, but you are welcome to come 3 and sit with Mr. Bahr. 4 MR. FROMM: He will sit in the 5 audience. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you 7 everyone. We will see you at -- what time is it now? 8 It is quarter to 12 by my watch. So, say, 1 o'clock. 9 Thank you. 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:45 a.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon 13 everyone. Be seated. 14 So this afternoon we are going to be 15 starting with Mr. Warman's evidence? 16 MS WARSAME: Yes, that is correct. 17 And before we start, Madam Chair, the 18 Commission will be using a second black binder to enter 19 the evidence of Mr. Warman, and that was provided to 20 you, I believe. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. 22 AFFIRMED: RICHARD WARMAN 23 MR. BAHR: Before we begin, Madam. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 25 MR. BAHR: May I ask that she use a
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1 podium just so I can hear her better. I find that that 2 picks up the voice. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sure, that's 4 fine, unless counsel has a problem with that. 5 EXAMINATION BY MS WARSAME 6 MS WARSAME: Good afternoon, 7 Mr. Warman. 8 Before we begin can you please turn 9 to Tab 1. Are you familiar with this document? 10 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I am. This is a 11 copy of the complaint that I filed with the Canadian 12 Human Rights Commission. I filed it on the 8th of 13 June, 2004. The pages numbered 1 to 3 are the 14 documents that I submitted to the Commission, and the 15 front page is a Commission document titled "Summary of 16 Complaint". 17 MS WARSAME: The last page of that 18 document there is a signature. Is that your signature? 19 MR. WARMAN: Yes, it is. 20 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 21 like to file this document as a Commission exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: The complaint filed 23 by Richard Warman and the Canadian Human Rights 24 Commission dated June 8, 2004 will be filed as 25 Commission Exhibit HR-21.
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1 EXHIBIT NO. HR-21: Complaint 2 filed by Richard Warman and the 3 Canadian Human Rights Commission 4 dated June 8, 2004 5 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, if you go to 6 page 1 of HR-21 where it say "websites involved" can 7 you please explain that to the tribunal? 8 MR. WARMAN: Yes. It indicates that 9 the websites -- there are three websites involved: The 10 first one is www.wcfu.com; the second is 11 www.westerncanadaforus.com; and the third is 12 www.stormfront.org. 13 The reason there are two separate 14 websites there, the first two websites, is that there 15 were two distinct universal resource locator, URL 16 addresses that you could go to the WCFU websites. 17 Whenever I looked at them, to the best of my ability, 18 they were both simply mirror images of the other, and, 19 in fact, although I don't know, they could have simply 20 led to the same place. 21 MS WARSAME: At the same page, if you 22 go to the bottom part where it says "Particulars". 23 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 24 MS WARSAME: Can you please explain 25 the meaning of SS-88 or SS -- what SS stand for?
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1 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Because the 2 allegation in the complaint is that the person behind 3 SS-88 was, in fact, Mr. Glenn Bahr, SS is short for 4 Shutzstaffel. 5 Shutzstaffel was the organization in 6 Nazi Germany that had the responsibility for the 7 protection of Adolf Hitler and the operation of the 8 concentration camps. 9 In terms of 88, based on my 10 experience monitoring these types of groups, the number 11 88 is often used in neo-Nazi parlance as a numeric code 12 for HH because 'H' is the 8th letter of the alphabet, 13 and it is used as shorthand in the neo-Nazi milieu for 14 Heil Hitler, 88 being 'H' times 2 being short for Heil 15 Hitler. 16 MS WARSAME: The same document, 17 HR-23, I would like to refer you to page 2, the bottom 18 paragraph where it say "During the month of March, 19 2004", and you are talking here about neo-Nazi 20 literature? 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 22 MS. WARSAME: Can you please explain 23 that? 24 MR. WARMAN: During the month March 25 2004 from monitoring the WCFU website I became aware
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1 that in the download section there were electronic 2 versions of Nazi and neo-Nazi literature that were 3 available for download. 4 As it indicates on the next page, 5 which is page 3 at the bottom, on the 17th of March, 6 2004, I downloaded a list the files that were 7 available. They included the works The Silent Jew; The 8 International Jew, by Henry Ford; The Turner Diaries, 9 by William Pierce, William Pierce being the former head 10 of the U.S. neo-Nazi group the National Alliance; White 11 Power by George Lincoln Rockwell, the former head of 12 the American Nazi Party. 13 From my familiarity with these 14 documents it was my opinion that they were viciously 15 anti-Semitic, and that the Turner Diaries clearly 16 advocated the genocide of Jews, blacks and other 17 non-whites, as well as any whites who associated with 18 non-whites. 19 I personally viewed all of the 20 materials that were available that I have described in 21 their entirety through the WCFU website on a number of 22 occasions; and on the 17th of March, 2004, I printed 23 off hard copies of the Turner Diaries and The 24 International Jew, and on 19th of March, 2004, I 25 downloaded pdf copies of The Turner Diaries, The
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1 International Jew and White Power. 2 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 3 I will ask you now to turn to Tab 2. 4 Are you familiar with this document? 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I am. It is 6 virtually identical to the previous tab except that the 7 summary of the complaint by the Canadian Human Rights 8 Commission names the respondent as Western Canada For 9 Us as opposed to the individual respondent Glenn Bar 10 identified in the previous tab. 11 MS WARSAME: And the last page, page 12 3, are you familiar with that signature? 13 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I am. It is my 14 signature. 15 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 16 like to file Tab 2. 17 THE REGISTRAR: The Summary of the 18 Complaint signed by Richard Warman dated June 8, 2004 19 will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-22. 20 EXHIBIT NO. HR-22: The summary 21 of complaint signed by Richard 22 Warman dated June 8, 2004 23 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you 24 please now turn to Tab 3. What can you tell us about 25 this document?
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1 MR. WARMAN: What this is is it is a 2 hard copy image of a page that was available on the 3 U.S. neo-Nazi website stormfront.org. The way you can 4 sort of read it, if you will, is that up in the top 5 left corner in the -- at the very top it gives the 6 website's name and then it gives what are called the 7 thread titles. So each individual new discussion is 8 usually referred to as a thread, and that is the title, 9 and you can see that repeated again in the box that is 10 just underneath the "Live Internet Radio with David 11 Duke" near the top. 12 So the different kind of forums that 13 were available on Stormfront, the first one was the 14 biggest, the Stormfront White Nationalist Community, 15 and then if you go into the international section, and 16 then Stormfront Canada; and this is from the particular 17 thread within Stormfront Canada called "New here, 18 anyone in Surrey BC". 19 MS WARSAME: At the top of that 20 document under where it say "Live International Radio" 21 there is a -- there is a sentence start with "Welcome"? 22 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 23 MS WARSAME: Can you tell us the 24 meaning of that name after "Welcome"? 25 MR. WARMAN: That states: "Welcome
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1 pogue mahone", and the reason for that is because that 2 was one of the pseudonyms that I used to log onto 3 Stormfront, and in monitoring the website. 4 Basically I picked that title because 5 it was the name of an Irish Celtic music band that went 6 by the name The Pogue Mahones, and then eventually they 7 shortened their name to The Pogues. 8 MS WARSAME: The same document, we 9 are still at the same document, if you look at the 10 posting of SS-88 what can you tell us about that 11 posting? 12 MR. WARMAN: In the -- in the posting 13 on the top right you will note that there is a small 14 number 2 there, and if you go to the box, the post 15 immediately above it, there is a very small number 1 in 16 the top right corner. What that indicates is the 17 number in order of the thread that that post 18 represents. 19 So "Greek Crusade 4 Constantnople" is 20 the first person who opened that thread, and therefore 21 they have got the little number 1. SS-88 is the second 22 person who is posted in that thread, and thus the 23 little number 2. 24 This particular hard copy was printed 25 off by me on the 5th of February, 2005 and provided to
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1 the Human Rights -- Canadian Human Rights Commission 2 pursuant to my complaint. 3 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 4 like to file that document. 5 THE REGISTRAR: I am not quite sure 6 how to describe this, but copy of the thread found in 7 stormfront.org website will be filed as Commission 8 Exhibit HR-23. 9 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair and Madam 10 Joyal, perhaps just because there are a number of 11 threads from Stormfront, perhaps if we just listed them 12 by the title it would differentiate them. So perhaps 13 if we just called it "Stormfront forum New here, anyone 14 in Surrey BC", that may assist in differentiating them 15 if we need to refer to them in the future. 16 EXHIBIT NO. HR-23: Thread 17 titled "Stormfront forum new 18 here, anyone in Surrey BC" 19 MS WARSAME: Let us move now to Tab 20 4. 21 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, I would just like 22 to identify a couple of things, if I could -- 23 MS WARSAME: Sure. 24 MR. WARMAN: -- in this specific 25 printed-off thread.
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1 On the first page, page 1 of 5, the 2 thread starter has essentially asked if there is anyone 3 who is around Surrey, B.C. SS-88 posts a response 4 indicating: 5 "I'm in your area and so are 6 others. PM me if your 7 interested in meeting friday." 8 Subsequent to that on page 3 of 5 at 9 the very bottom SS-88 goes back and posts again: 10 "Re: New here, anyone in Surrey 11 BC." 12 Helsingor, just above that posting, 13 has indicated that they are from Langley, and SS-88 14 responds: 15 "I'm also in Langley." 16 I think another thing of note is that 17 the symbol or what are called avatars, the little sort 18 of picture underneath the SS-88 is a picture -- the 19 avatar that SS-88 has chosen is the picture of what 20 appear to be -- what are traditionally associated with 21 skinhead boots with white laces standing with open legs 22 in front of a large Nazi banner with the swastika. 23 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 24 Can we now move to Tab 4. 25 MR. WARMAN: Sorry. Perhaps if I
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1 could, I would just like to refer back to HR-21 on 2 page -- the second page or what is numbered as page 1 3 at the bottom. 4 Just like to note the permanent home 5 address that was listed for Mr. Bahr and through which 6 I understand the Commission served him with the 7 document that was submitted by me with the complaint, 8 and I won't give the exact address, but it indicates 9 that Mr. Bahr was residing in Langley, British Columbia 10 at the time. 11 MS WARSAME: Thank you for the 12 clarification. 13 So we are now -- can you turn at Tab 14 4. Did you print this document? 15 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I did. This was 16 printed off on the 5th of February, 2005. That is the 17 date at the bottom right corner. The sort of extensive 18 numbers and letters at the bottom left indicates the 19 URL from which I downloaded it from the stormfront.org 20 website, and I submitted this to the Commission 21 pursuant to my complaint. 22 MS WARSAME: When you are talking 23 about the number on the bottom are you talking the one 24 that say 17106 -- 25 MR. WARMAN: I am talking about that
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1 whole series of letters and numbers beginning with 2 http, what is commonly called the URL address. 3 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 4 Can I file this document -- I would 5 like to file this document as a Commission exhibit 6 please, Tab 4. 7 THE REGISTRAR: The copy of a thread 8 found on the stormfront.org website titled "Eagle 9 Tattoo" will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-24. 10 EXHIBIT NO. HR-24: Copy of a 11 thread found on the 12 stormfront.org website titled 13 "Eagle Tattoo" 14 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman -- 15 MR. BAHR: Sorry, Madam. I was 16 wondering if the Crown could just clarify something for 17 me about this Tab 4. 18 On the index it looks like it is from 19 Stormfront but it says "the-cloak.com". I was just 20 wondering what is the-cloak.com and how come it says 21 "Stormfront" when it says "the-cloak.com"? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bahr, I don't 23 see where it says that. 24 MR. BAHR: At the very beginning of 25 the binder under "Index", do you see description?
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 2 MR. BAHR: And next to 4 it says -- 3 the rest say "stormfront.org" but this says 4 "the-cloak.com", and I was just wondering... 5 MS WARSAME: Thank you. I will 6 clarify that. 7 Madam Chair, the way we prepare the 8 book of documents we ask our assistant to prepare an 9 index so it will be -- it will help the party and the 10 tribunal to follow, and I believe that was a typo 11 because I don't see anywhere where -- 12 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, actually, 13 if I could perhaps be of assistance. 14 When you get to Tab 4 -- sorry. 15 Perhaps it would be easiest if I could explain that 16 when we reach Tab 5. It will -- because Tab 5 actually 17 makes -- indicates -- some information on that specific 18 page that will assist in explaining what it means. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: So these entries 4 20 and 5 might be just out of order rather than -- 21 MR. WARMAN: That goes back to the 22 Commission's preparation. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We are going 24 to have to be both of us in suspense for a little bit 25 then until we hear --
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1 MR. BAHR: Okay. As long as they 2 explain it to me I'm fine. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. So where 4 are we at now, Tab 5? 5 MS WARSAME: Tab 4. We are now at 6 Tab 4 HR-24. 7 Mr. Warman, I would like to direct 8 your attention to page 4 of 5. There is a posting by 9 SS-88. What can you tell us about that posting please? 10 MR. WARMAN: What it is is it is a 11 response to a posting by CyrosImmortal, and it shows 12 one of the traditional Nazi emblems that is a page 13 of -- an image of an eagle in flight. Within its claws 14 is sort of a ring within which is the World War II era 15 Nazi swastika emblem. 16 SS-88 posts: 17 "I have that on my back from 18 shoulder to shoulder." 19 I believe that is important because 20 it ties in with the descriptions that were given to 21 Mr. Camp and that Sergeant Camp has testified with 22 regard to the actual tattoos that Mr. Bahr has. 23 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 24 MR. BAHR: Madam, I think I need to 25 object to what Mr. Warman has said because I believe
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1 there was no -- nothing Mr. Camp said about an eagle 2 tattoo on my back, and I think we should leave that for 3 Mr. Camp to decide, not Mr. Warman, because it is 4 Mr. Camp's testimony. 5 MR. WARMAN: In fact, all I am doing 6 is explaining why I believe that it is important. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 8 MR. WARMAN: And, in fact, Sergeant 9 Camp had testified to the presence of an eagle tattoo 10 similar to that, whether it is specifically on the back 11 or whatever location it may be on Mr. Bahr's body. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the e-mail 13 or the post, I guess, might speak for itself on that 14 point, so we will carry on. 15 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, if we turn 16 at Tab 5, on the bottom it say "www.the-cloak.com". 17 MR. WARMAN: I would be happy to 18 explain that. 19 MS WARSAME: Can you explain that, 20 Mr. Warman? 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes. What the cloak is 22 is it is essentially an anonymizer program, so similar 23 to anonymizer.com; and all it is is it is a means of 24 hiding your what is called an internet protocol address 25 or your IP address.
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1 So when you are surfing the internet, 2 if you don't want people to know what the IPS address 3 of your computer is, you can go to an anonymizing site. 4 Some of them require you to pay money, some of them 5 don't, and all it does is it is like a redirect point. 6 So in this case what I did was I went 7 to the website the-cloak.com -- C-L-O-A-K.com. They 8 would have a box where you would enter the URL address 9 of the website that you wish to go to, and then that 10 would simply then redirect you. 11 So if anyone tried to track where you 12 were coming from it would look as though you were 13 coming from the website of the-cloak.com. It would 14 give their IP address as opposed to your actual IP 15 address. 16 And what that does is it is simply a 17 redirection to another website. It is a way of getting 18 there by going through a second point, and it does not 19 change the content in any way. 20 MR. BAHR: Madam, if I may just so I 21 know that I understand what he is saying and I have it 22 right. 23 So basically what the cloak does it 24 hides from where you are coming from so you can visit a 25 website without people knowing who you are? Is that
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1 what it is? 2 MR. WARMAN: Yes, essentially. It is 3 an anonymous sort of redirect. 4 MR. BAHR: Thank you. 5 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, the 6 Commission is not planning to enter Tab 5. However, to 7 clarify it, because there was a question earlier asked 8 by Mr. Bahr with respect to why the index indicate 9 another -- the title in the index is different from the 10 title in the top itself, so maybe for the sake of 11 clarification the Commission will file that document, 12 but before I file it I will ask Mr. Warman to clarify 13 it. 14 Mr. Warman, did you print out this 15 document in Tab 5 -- 16 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I did. It was 17 printed off by me on the 20th of February, 2004, and 18 was provided to the Commission pursuant to my 19 complaint. 20 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 21 like to file Tab 5 as the next Exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of the thread 23 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Tatoos" 24 will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-25. 25 EXHIBIT NO. HR-25: A copy of
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1 the thread found on the 2 stormfront.org website entitled 3 "Tatoos" 4 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, HR-25? 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 6 MR. WARMAN: Thank you. 7 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you 8 please now turn to Tab 6 please. 9 Are you familiar with this document? 10 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I am. It was 11 printed off by me on the 5th of February, 2005, from a 12 thread on the stormfront.org website and was submitted 13 to the Commission by me pursuant to my complaint. 14 MS WARSAME: I would like to direct 15 you to page 3, 3 of 7. There is a posting by SS-88. 16 MR. WARMAN: Has it been entered as 17 an exhibit? 18 MS WARSAME: Oh, not yet. Can I 19 please enter this document identified by the 20 complainant as an exhibit? 21 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 6? 22 MS WARSAME: Yes please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: The copy of a thread 24 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Should SF 25 remove its National Socialist sym", and then it goes
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1 on, will be filed as complaint Commission Exhibit 2 HR-26. 3 EXHIBIT NO. HR-26: Copy of a 4 thread found on the 5 stormfront.org website entitled 6 "Should SF remove its National 7 Socialist (NS) symbology page?" 8 MS WARSAME: So, Mr. Warman, if you 9 can now go to page 3 of 7 of HR-26. The posting by 10 SS-88, what can you tell us about this posting? 11 MR. WARMAN: You can see that if 12 you -- it is a response to the posting by Unconditioned 13 Canuck on page 1 of 7, and there is a short bit of 14 Unconditioned Canuck's posting that is quoted in the 15 box at the beginning of SS-88's post. It states, "Dear 16 SF", meaning Stormfront members: 17 "For the past 2 weeks I've been 18 helping to organize a 'national 19 flyer campaign' - a sticky 20 thread on Canada SF forum. 21 Sometimes I feel as though 22 it's all for nothing as the 23 media, if our efforts are 24 reported, will simply log onto 25 this portion of the site" --
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1 it then gives you the URL address -- 2 "and label us as a nazi 3 organization because we endorse 4 NS symbology," 5 and Unconditioned Canuck has 6 indicated that NS -- he is using that as short for 7 National Socialist. 8 SS-88 then goes on to say: 9 "As far as the Sticky about the 10 National Flyer campaign if you 11 do not wish to support 12 Stormfront make your own flyer 13 and distribute it. We in B.C. 14 are going ahead with our flyer. 15 Forget it, I'm a National 16 Socialist! Thats what freedom 17 of Speech is!! What are you 18 fighting for!" 19 It then underneath says, it quotes 20 another poster. It says: 21 "Why not create your own 22 completely sanitised forum or 23 information site, and advertise 24 that?" 25 SS-88 responds to that saying, "Good
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1 idea". 2 Underneath that in bold and all caps 3 are the words "Heil Hitler" and underneath that is a 4 thumbnail that SS-88 -- an image, a small image that 5 SS-88 has attached to the posting showing a picture of 6 Adolf Hitler sieg heiling, giving the National 7 Socialist salute in front of a National Socialist flag 8 bearing the swastika. 9 Later on at page 5 of 7 -- 10 MS WARSAME: Before you go there can 11 you go back to SS-88 page 3 of 7. Do you know the 12 meaning of the National Socialist? 13 MR. WARMAN: National Socialist 14 essentially is a reference to the World War II era 15 political party, the NS staff, the National Socialist 16 Deutsehe Arbeiterpartei. 17 MR. BAHR: Madam, I must object. 18 Unless Mr. Warman is an expert on that I don't think he 19 should testify what National Socialism is because it is 20 not true. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Warman is the 22 complainant. I think it is reasonable to ask him to 23 give us -- 24 MR. BAHR: Can he say give his 25 opinion of what it is instead of --
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it is fair 2 to put that qualifier on there, and you will certainly 3 have an opportunity through your witnesses to present 4 any contrary evidence you would like to. 5 MR. BAHR: Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. 7 MR. WARMAN: As I indicated, it is a 8 reference to the National Socialist Deutsehe 9 Arbeiteropartei. Essentially the group that seized 10 control in the 1930s in Germany, commonly referred to 11 as the Nazi party, N-A-Z-I. The political platform, I 12 believe, is notorious. It stood for the extermination 13 of Jews, gypsies which are commonly known as or more 14 properly known as Roma, homosexuals and non-whites. 15 The -- as I have indicated in the 16 complaint, I have indicated what the role of the SS-88 17 was within that; and just for the purposes of 18 clarification, if I am referring to -- if I use the 19 expression "neo-Nazi" what I mean to say by that is 20 that it is an individual or group that expound the same 21 beliefs but that came after the period during which the 22 actual original National Socialist party was in 23 existence in Germany. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Warman, I have 25 been noticing as I go through this that I am having
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1 trouble reading those teensy-weensy little dates at the 2 top of the moniker. Can you tell from your copy what 3 the date of this one is, and I will start flagging 4 these as we go along. 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Madam Chair, the 6 photocopying unfortunately has come out a little weak. 7 What I would be quite happy to do is if you flag the 8 ones you can't read I will undertake over the weekend 9 to get the exact dates of all of those posts. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. This is 11 one of them. 12 MR. WARMAN: Okay. Perhaps, 13 Mr. Vigna, perhaps you could just keep a list and then 14 I can make sure that I get those for you. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. 16 MR. WARMAN: I would also just add 17 that it is my personal belief that the nature of the 18 National Socialist party or what -- and what National 19 Socialism stands for is notorious in that it is a 20 commonly known fact of history. So I don't believe 21 that there is any expertise that is required for that 22 kind of definition. 23 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, before we go 24 into details in respect to Tab 6, can we go back and 25 tell me -- I understand you have an interest in human
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1 right. So can you please explain and describe to the 2 tribunal how you became interested in human right and 3 how do you pursue that interest? 4 MR. WARMAN: Essentially I have had a 5 long standing interest in human rights' issues in 6 general, and over the past 15 or 20 years I have 7 developed a particular interest in hate group activity, 8 predominantly white supremacist and neo-Nazi hate group 9 activity. 10 My original interests, I guess, 11 started back around 19 -- late 1980's early 1990's. I 12 began monitoring the activities of what I considered to 13 be extremist groups that would fall under those 14 categories both in Canada and abroad. 15 I have done that ever since, and over 16 the past six, perhaps seven years I developed a 17 particular interest in what was occurring on the 18 internet in relation to distribution of what I 19 considered to be hate propaganda by those groups; and 20 my concern stemmed predominantly from the fact that I 21 felt that material of that nature would likely violate 22 either Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act or 23 the Criminal Code provisions against hate propaganda -- 24 hate propaganda and the promotion of genocide. 25 MS WARSAME: Sorry. I know you
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1 mention white supremacist and neo-Nazi. Can you please 2 explain, based on your experience, the meaning of those 3 terms? 4 MR. WARMAN: When I use those 5 terms -- 6 MS WARSAME: Or how you do understand 7 the meaning of those terms? 8 MR. WARMAN: When I use those terms I 9 differentiate between white supremacist on the basis 10 that white supremacist is simply the belief that the 11 white or Aryan race is supreme and that all other races 12 are subservient or deficient or what the National 13 Socialist regime called intermenser or lesser beings. 14 When I use the term "neo-Nazi" I use 15 it specifically to describe things that made up the 16 National Socialist beliefs which was in my opinion an 17 irrational, an extreme fear and hatred of homosexuals, 18 Jews, non-whites, Roma and other targets of their 19 regime. 20 MS WARSAME: And in the same context 21 I understand you explain what led you in filing the 22 complaint in this case, but can you briefly describe to 23 the tribunal what led you filing the two complaints in 24 this case? 25 MR. WARMAN: Yes. I went through it
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1 a little bit in my opening statement, and essentially 2 it was from monitoring the Stormfront website. 3 Stormfront, in my opinion, is essentially what has been 4 referred to as the mother of all internet hate sites 5 ever since its development in 1995 as essentially the 6 first of these kinds of websites; and from monitoring 7 it, in July of 2003 in the Canadian section I began to 8 notice specific efforts by individuals in Edmonton to 9 organize within the white supremacist and neo-Nazi 10 movements. 11 As I described they initially 12 attended -- attempted to hold a demonstration at the 13 legislature here in Edmonton, and when that didn't work 14 they returned and continued organizing, specifically 15 beginning around January of 2004 I allege that Peter 16 Kouba and Mr. Bahr began organizing around Western 17 Canada For Us and the idea of creating an all-white 18 homeland here in Alberta; and I believe that the rest 19 of my understanding of what transpired since then was 20 contained in my opening submissions or will be 21 explained here. 22 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 23 Can we now go back to Tab 6 which is 24 HR-26. 25 MR. WARMAN: Yes.
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1 MS WARSAME: And please turn to page 2 6 of 7. Can you tell us what is your understanding of 3 the posting made by SS-88? It started at page 5 of 7. 4 MR. WARMAN: Yes. At the bottom of 5 page 5 of 7, and I believe the date there would be -- 6 MS WARSAME: It say on mine 7 01-08-2005? 8 MR. WARMAN: Yes. This was 9 downloaded by me as I said on the 5th of February, 10 2005, and, again, it is a continuation. This is the 11 ninth posting in that thread: Should SF remove its NS 12 symptomatology. It indicates -- it quotes a previous 13 poster that says: 14 "By moving that page off SF" - 15 meaning Stormfront - "we can at 16 least say that SF itself doesn't 17 endorse NS" - meaning National 18 Socialist - "symbology, it 19 endorses freedom of expression - 20 of which any member (ie NSs) can 21 enjoy." 22 SS-88 then responds to that quote 23 saying: 24 "But it does and there is 25 nothing wrong with NS" - meaning
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1 National Socialist - "symbology. 2 What are we saying if we take it 3 off!? That's exactly what ZOG 4 wants!" 5 From my experience in observing these 6 milieus over the past 20 years or so what I understand 7 "ZOG" to mean is that it is an acronym for Zionist 8 Occupational Government, and that essentially it refers 9 to the neo-Nazi theory that Jews are, in fact, in 10 control of the government, and it is often used 11 interchangeably with the acronym "JOG", which stands 12 for Jewish Occupational Government. 13 MS WARSAME: Thank you, Mr. Warman. 14 Can you now turn to Tab 7. Madam 15 Chair, I believe this was entered as HR-4 by Officer 16 Camp. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Was it a separate 18 document or is it in a binder -- 19 MS WARSAME: It was separate 20 document actually, three-page document, I believe. A 21 separate document. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am not 23 finding it right away, but it is of no consequence. 24 Madam Registrar can confirm that. 25 Yes, this looks like it. Three
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1 pages. So this -- we may as well mark this document 2 HR-4 as well just so I am clear. 3 Thank you. 4 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, are you 5 familiar with this document? 6 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I am. The first 7 three pages were printed off by me on the 12th of 8 February, 2005, and then submitted to the Canadian 9 Human Rights Commission pursuant to my complaint. 10 The last page with the heading 11 "UNWANTED" is a copy of a poster that I believe has 12 already been referred to that was distributed in Red 13 Deer, and that this thread refers to. This particular 14 document, and I can't remember the exact timing of 15 which came first, but after I became aware that these 16 posters had been distributed, whether I knew that from 17 the Stormfront or whether it was Sergeant Camp's call 18 to me asking if I had seen a copy, what I did was given 19 that it indicated that it was the group called 20 Anti-Racist Action that had put these posters up, what 21 I did was I went to the website of that group, found 22 the e-mail address, and then e-mailed that group 23 inquiring if they could forward me a copy of that 24 poster. 25 They then did that, and I printed it
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1 off and submitted it to the Commission pursuant to my 2 complaint. 3 MS WARSAME: Did you provide this 4 document to Officer Camp? 5 MR. WARMAN: I did that as well, yes. 6 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 7 Can you now turn to page 2 of HR-4. 8 Actually start at page 1, the posting by SS-88. 9 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Essentially, 10 again, SS-88, by referring to the small number 1 at the 11 top, is the originator of this thread and, again, would 12 have chosen the title of this thread by initiating the 13 thread. 14 If you look the title is "Posters of 15 me in Red Deer", and I think that is important because 16 it indicates that it is self-referential, and that when 17 you actually look at what the poster was the poster is 18 of an individual named Glenn Bar. 19 It goes on to complain about the fact 20 that these posters -- he alleges these posters have 21 been put up in Red Deer about him. He claims, he talks 22 about different things that he alleges have occurred to 23 him as a result. He makes statements that I believe 24 are inaccurate about the nature of Western Canada For 25 Us, and then it ends on the second page of 8 -- the
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1 first posting ends on the second page of 8. 2 MS WARSAME: If you turn to page 2 of 3 that same document HR-4, that of the posting that start 4 at page 1, can you read for us the last sentence? 5 MR. WARMAN: I am sorry, I didn't 6 catch that. 7 MS WARSAME: The last sentence of the 8 posting that start at page 1? 9 MR. WARMAN: Yes. It states: 10 "I will never give up and WCFU 11 is not going away! Your actions 12 are only bringing us together 13 and making us stronger! WCFU!" 14 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 15 Can you now go to the second posting, 16 the same page, by SS-88. 17 MR. WARMAN: Yes. It states: 18 "You can also check out our 19 website to see what we stand 20 for, Western Canada For Us." 21 And if I recall correctly, that was 22 actually a link, a hyperlink, meaning that if you 23 clicked on that you would be directed -- either a 24 separate window would open up or you would be 25 transferred to the Western Canada For Us website.
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1 And I should mention as well that I 2 think it is important from my perspective as the 3 complainant because it indicates to me control over the 4 website. It indicates the leadership role within the 5 organization. It is self-referential in that it refers 6 to "our website"; and I just want to make sure that I 7 was absolutely clear when I spoke earlier in the day 8 that the allegation is, in addition to the individual 9 complaint, is that Mr. Bahr's responsibility comes just 10 not from his actions as an individual but also his role 11 under Section 13 as a member of a group of individuals 12 acting in concert, and thus violating Section 13. 13 So I just wanted to make sure that I 14 was clear about what it was that is being alleged in 15 relation to Mr. Bahr. 16 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, if you go 17 back to the posting at page 2, the second posting by 18 SS-88, the one that start with "You can also check out 19 our website"? 20 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 21 MS WARSAME: At the bottom of that 22 posting there is a "Canadian WN Websites", and I 23 believe there is a list of what I believe there are 24 websites. 25 Can you -- do you understand what
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1 those are? 2 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Again, from my 3 experience in monitoring these groups "WN" refers to 4 white nationalist. It is sort of a rhetorical term 5 that is used by individuals involved in those movements 6 to sort of soft play or down play what the nature of 7 the organizations are, white nationalist meaning that 8 you support the creation of a whites only homeland. 9 The first website is called "Canada 10 First". That is a website/group. That is a website 11 that is run by Mr. Fromm. The Freedom Site is a 12 website that is run by an individual named Marc Lemire. 13 Canadian Heritage Alliance is a website, is a group 14 based out of the London, Ontario area run by a woman 15 named Melissa Guille who attended at least one meeting 16 that was held by WCFU and spoke in conjunction with 17 Mr. Fromm. The Northern Alliance is, again, another 18 group operated out of the London, Ontario area; and 19 B.C. White Pride is an organization in British 20 Columbia; and all of these groups had websites, and, 21 again, I believe that if you clicked on any of those 22 they would take you to those links. 23 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 24 Can you turn to Tab 8 now please. 25 Are you familiar with the document at Tab 8?
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1 MR. WARMAN: Yes. This was printed 2 off from the Stormfront website by me. The thread 3 title is "Happy Birthday Paul Fromm". It was printed 4 off by me on the 5th of February, 2005 and then 5 submitted to the Commission pursuant to my complaint. 6 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 7 like to file Tab 8, the document at Tab 8 of the book 8 of document of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. 9 THE REGISTRAR: The copy of a thread 10 found on the Stormfront printout or website entitled 11 "Happy Birthday Paul Fromm" will be filed as Commission 12 Exhibit HR-27. 13 EXHIBIT NO. HR-27: The copy of 14 a thread found on the Stormfront 15 printout or website entitled 16 "Happy Birthday Paul Fromm" 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is -- the 18 documents or the posts on this tab I can't read the 19 dates on, so, counsel, just make a note. 20 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, at Tab 21 HR-27, if you turn to page 4 of 7, there is a posting 22 by SS-88. What can you tell us about that posting? 23 MR. WARMAN: I think it is important 24 to look at the first page before turning to page 4 just 25 to get a sense of what this thread discusses.
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1 Individual starts the thread and says 2 "Happy Birthday Paul Fromm!" 3 MR. BAHR: Madam, I must object. I 4 think we discussed earlier that only posts made by me 5 were going to be included on the Stormfront? Wasn't 6 that what we decided? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to be 8 referred to -- 9 MR. BAHR: Are we still going to go 10 through each one -- 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it is 12 reasonable to know, now that we are learning about 13 this, the whole concept of threads, it is helpful to 14 know there are sort of clusters in a subject matter. 15 So it is helpful to know, I think, what the subject 16 matter is, Mr. Bahr. 17 MR. BAHR: Okay. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I think that is 19 an appropriate question in the circumstances. 20 MR. WARMAN: The first post states: 21 "Paul Fromm turns 56 on January 22 3, 2005. I'm sure all the 23 partisans on Stormfront Canada 24 would like to take this 25 opportunity to wish him a happy
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1 birthday and a good 2005! 2 Mr. Fromm then posts a response and 3 says: 4 "Thanks, White Etobicoke. I 5 hoist one to all my Kinsmen and 6 Kinswomen in Canada, the U.S. 7 and across the European world." 8 Other individuals then respond saying 9 "Happy Birthday". There is a post there by the 10 individual previously named Marc Lemire. 11 You get to page 4 where SS-88 posts. 12 It states: 13 "HAPPY BIRTHDAY PAUL!! You sure 14 don't look 56, I would have 15 guessed 30!" 16 And it is then signed Glenn, 17 G-L-E-N-N. And I believe that is important because I 18 believe it is a further indication or indicia that 19 SS-88 is, in fact, Mr. Bahr. 20 MS WARSAME: Can you turn to Tab 9, 21 Mr. Warman. Do you recognize this document at Tab 9? 22 MR. WARMAN: I do. 23 MS WARSAME: Did you print it? 24 MR. WARMAN: This is a document from 25 Stormfront. The thread title is "Warman files
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1 complaint against WCFU". It was printed off by me on 2 the 12th of February, 2005, and then submitted to the 3 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 4 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 5 like to file this document Tab 9. 6 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 7 found in the stormfront.org website entitled "Warman 8 files complaint against WCFU" will be filed as 9 Commission Exhibit HR-28. 10 EXHIBIT NO. HR-28: A copy of a 11 thread found in the 12 stormfront.org website entitled 13 "Warman files complaint against 14 WCFU" 15 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 16 tell us about this document? 17 MR. WARMAN: What it is is it started 18 off by an individual called RJM1488. It starts -- 19 essentially what it is is it is a copy of material that 20 was taken from a website, an anti-racist website, 21 called "recomnetwork.org" that is run by the British 22 Columbia anti-racist organization called the Canadian 23 Anti-racism Education and Research Society. 24 It is essentially copying a news 25 release that appeared on the recomnetwork website
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1 announcing the fact that formal human rights complaints 2 had been filed against Western Canada For Us against 3 Mr. Bahr and against Mr. Kouba. 4 What it does is it continues with the 5 contents on page 1 and 2, and it then attracts a number 6 of responses from individuals on pages 3 and 4. Paul 7 Fromm responds on page 5 and includes a copy of the 8 entire complaint that was also posted on the 9 recomnetwork website. 10 And then on page 11 of 12 SS-88 11 responds first, and again the thread title is "Warman 12 files complaints against WCFU". SS-88, whom I believe 13 to be Mr. Bahr, states: 14 "Look forward to meeting you in 15 person Richard Warman." 16 MR. BAHR: I must say it has been a 17 disappointment. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bahr, that is 19 not appropriate. 20 MR. BAHR: Sorry. 21 MR. WARMAN: Certainly if that is 22 confirmation that that was you that is great. 23 The SS-88 posts again under the same 24 thread. 25 "The more the cops harass me,
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1 the more complaints that are 2 made against us, the more we are 3 shut up and kept quiet the 4 angrier and more determined I 5 get. Something needs to be done, 6 things are getting worse here in 7 Canada. Soon we will have no 8 rights at all. Soon we will be 9 told what to think!" 10 Again, I believe, that is important 11 because it is self-referential. It refers to himself 12 being SS-88, and it talks in a thread about a complaint 13 that was filed against Mr. Bahr himself. 14 And, in fact, even Mr. Fromm, if you 15 turn to page 5 of 12, second paragraph from the bottom, 16 Mr. Fromm who was Mr. Bahr's representative, states: 17 "Warman is a fanatic, a 18 professional complainer who is 19 carrying on an ideological war 20 against people whose views he 21 doesn't like. You'll note that 22 much of his ire is raised by 23 Glenn Bahr's political beliefs. 24 So he likes Hitler, Many people 25 like Che, or Mao or Marx.
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1 Surely, that's allowed. Heck, 2 isn't that "diversity". It will 3 be interesting." 4 So I believe that is important 5 because even Mr. Bahr's representative refers to him by 6 name. 7 MS WARSAME: Thank you, Mr. Warman. 8 Is there anything else from that 9 posting you would like to highlight? 10 MR. WARMAN: No thank you. 11 MS WARSAME: Can you now turn to Tab 12 10. 13 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, I should just go 14 back to the start of Tab 9, the first page. 15 If you look at the -- sort of 6 16 inches down from the top on the right-hand side, there 17 is a small horizontal box there that says "page 1 of" 18 and then there is a '1' in bold, '2', '3' and, then 19 there is a small arrow, last. 20 What that is is that the -- the fact 21 that the '1' is indicated in bold indicates that this 22 is the first page in this thread, and by page I don't 23 mean physical paper page, but that that is the first -- 24 if you clicked on the '1' it would bring up the first 25 sort of website page with all of those postings. If
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1 you clicked on the '2' it would bring you to the second 2 web page of those postings. 3 So when we turn to Tab 10 we note 4 that it is the same thread, but if you look at where 5 that little box is on this page it says "page 3 of 5". 6 So this is the third page of postings in that thread, 7 web page of postings. 8 MS WARSAME: Thank you for clarifying 9 that. 10 Can we now turn to -- 11 MR. WARMAN: Sorry. This is a -- 12 this is a page that was downloaded by me on the 12th of 13 February, 2005, from the Stormfront website, and it was 14 submitted by me to the Commission pursuant to my 15 complaint. 16 MS WARSAME: Are you referring to Tab 17 10? 18 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 19 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 20 like to file that document at Tab 10. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Five-page document of 22 a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled 23 "Warman files complaint against WCFU" will be filed as 24 Commission Exhibit HR-29. 25 EXHIBIT NO. HR-29: Five-page
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1 document of a thread found on 2 the stormfront.org website 3 entitled "Warman files complaint 4 against WCFU" 5 MR. WARMAN: Again, this is a 6 continuation of the "Warman files complaint against 7 WCFU" thread. 8 And if we turn to page 4 of 5. At 9 the bottom there is a posting by SS-88. Under the 10 heading "Warman files complaint against WCFU" it says: 11 "Just received the complaint and 12 documentation today." 13 And, again, I believe that shows that 14 it is self-referential, that it is, in fact, Mr. Bahr. 15 The documents were served on him, and then he indicates 16 that he received them. He then posts that information 17 as SS-88. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I can't see the 19 date on this one, so if that could be provided at some 20 point. 21 MS WARSAME: Can you please now turn 22 to Tab 11. 23 MR. WARMAN: This is another thread 24 that was downloaded by me on the 5th of February, 2005 25 from Stormfront. It is a thread entitled "video of the
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1 raid on my place last May". It was printed off by me 2 and provided to the Commission pursuant to my 3 complaint. 4 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 5 I would like to file this document. 6 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 7 found on the Stormfront.org website entitled "video of 8 the raid on my place last May" will be filed as 9 Commission Exhibit HR-30. 10 EXHIBIT NO. HR-30: A copy of a 11 thread found on the 12 stormfront.org website entitled 13 "video of the raid on my place 14 last May" 15 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 16 tell us about this document? 17 MR. WARMAN: If you look at the first 18 posting, again, you note that it indicates it is page 1 19 of 5. The top right in the first box is number 1. It 20 indicates that SS-88 has commenced this thread, and the 21 title of it is "video of the raid on my place last 22 May". 23 The content of his post states: 24 "Heres a link to the video of 25 the raid on my place last May.
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1 You get to see all my great 2 stuff that was stolen. 3 Click the link then on the 4 top right click on REALVIDEO to 5 view it." 6 It then gives the URL link to a CBC 7 website story. 8 The reason why I think that is 9 important -- in fact, perhaps I can just turn to page 4 10 of 5. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do 12 I can't read the date on this one either. So page 4 of 13 5. 14 MR. WARMAN: SS-88, again, posts 15 stating: 16 "I havn't got any of my stuff 17 back yet and havn't been 18 charged, however I'm still under 19 investigation for breaching 319 20 of the Hate Crimes Act. There 21 is about $2000.00 dollars worth 22 of stuff there. They even took 23 my freeking clothes. I made 24 several written complaints and 25 since then I havn't heard from
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1 them." 2 And I think both of those posts are 3 important because they are self-referential to 4 incidents that occurred in Mr. Bahr's life. The first 5 one, the main topic of this thread, of course, is the 6 search warrant execution by Sergeant Camp and other 7 members of the Edmonton Police Service on his residence 8 that transpired in May. 9 And again, the second posting on page 10 4 of 5 refers to a number of items that Sergeant Camp 11 has explained were seized pursuant to the execution of 12 that search warrant, including property of Mr. Bahr. 13 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, if you go 14 back to page 1 of that document? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we do just 16 note that I can't read the date on this one either. 17 MS WARSAME: Sure. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Page 1? 19 MS WARSAME: Page 1, the first page. 20 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 21 MS WARSAME: The SS-88 is talking 22 about a link to a video. Have you seen that video? 23 MR. WARMAN: I have. It provides a 24 specific URL link to the CBC website, to a CBC website 25 story, and perhaps if we can turn to Tab 12 I will
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1 explain. 2 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 3 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, I should indicate 4 as well that on that page, if you look even just at the 5 link, the URL link on page 1 of HR-30, you can see 6 that at the end of it the last four letters of it are 7 B-A-H-R, which is, of course, Mr. Bahr's last name. 8 Tab 12 is from the CBC. It is a 9 story from the cbc.ca website. It is the actual URL 10 link that was posted in the previous posting by SS-88. 11 It was downloaded by me on the 5th of February, 2005, 12 and provided to the Commission pursuant to my 13 complaint. 14 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 15 Can I file that document as 16 Commission exhibit please? 17 THE REGISTRAR: An article found on 18 the CBC website entitled "Edmonton Police investigate 19 hate crime seizure" will be filed as Commission Exhibit 20 HR-31. 21 EXHIBIT NO. HR-31: An article 22 found on the CBC website 23 entitled "Edmonton Police 24 investigate hate crime seizure" 25 MR. WARMAN: The reason why I believe
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1 that this document is important is because, again, if 2 you take the self-referential aspects from the posting 3 by SS-88 and that exact URL link, it then translates 4 into a story about the Edmonton police execution of a 5 search warrant on the residence of Glenn Bar. 6 I believe that this further 7 establishes that Mr. Bahr is, in fact, SS-88. 8 And also the fact that this story 9 discusses specifically material that was seized, and 10 SS-88 is referring to it as "my stuff", and, again, we 11 see that the pictures in this story are pictures of 12 flags that were specifically shown by Sergeant Camp as 13 having been seized during the raid on Mr. Bahr's 14 residence. 15 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 16 to refer you to go to HR-11 which was entered as an 17 exhibit. 18 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 19 MS WARSAME: Can you tell us if the 20 document at HR, I believe there, 11, the pictures? 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 22 MS WARSAME: Do you see any 23 similarity between those pictures and the one at HR-31? 24 MR. WARMAN: Yes. They are exact 25 images of one of the other. They are exact copies. If
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1 you turn to page 10 of HR-11, there is a specific flag 2 that is in the center of the image that is on the CBC 3 website. 4 Page 11 is an exact duplicate of 5 the -- or I believe is the same as the one that is 6 shown on the left of the image on the CBC website, and 7 the one on the right, I believe, is located at page 9 8 of HR-11. 9 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 10 Can you please turn to at tab -- can 11 you go to Tab 13 please. 12 Did you print this document Tab 13? 13 MR. WARMAN: I did. This was 14 downloaded from the stormfront.org website. It is a 15 continuation of the thread "video of the raid on my 16 place last May". It was printed off by me on the 5th 17 of February, 2005, and it was provided to the 18 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 19 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 20 I would like to file document Tab 13 21 of the Commission book of documents. 22 THE REGISTRAR: A nine-page document 23 of the thread found on the stormfront.org website 24 entitled "video of the raid on my place last May" will 25 be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-32.
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1 EXHIBIT NO. HR-32: A nine-page 2 document of the thread found on 3 the stormfront.org website 4 entitled "video of the raid on 5 my place last May" 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: One question I have 7 before I forget it. 8 We had been looking at I think it was 9 Tab either 4 or 5, the one that -- where you accessed 10 Stormfront through a cloaking liaison of some sort. 11 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you use that 13 method of accessing a website are you able to post? 14 MR. WARMAN: That would depend on 15 whoever had set up the forum, and it would also depend 16 on what redirect service you were using, whether they 17 would permit you to log into an actual website where 18 you had to enter data. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: So more 20 specifically then, were you able using the-cloak.com 21 device, would you be able to make a post onto this site 22 using this device? So could you make a post 23 anonymously by using this? 24 MR. WARMAN: I am sorry. Based on 25 the tab that is at 5 I would just note that at the top
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1 right I am not logged in. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I noticed 3 that, and that is why I am asking the question because 4 usually it is "welcome" and then your moniker. 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: And in this one it 7 isn't, but -- so that is why I am asking the question, 8 but I don't think that gives me the answer. 9 MR. WARMAN: Sorry. The reason I 10 gave that response was just because basically it would 11 say to me that I didn't log in at that using -- at the 12 time using my pseudonym that I was using. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. The question I 14 am getting to is that there has been some suggestions 15 that there have been posts or there may have been posts 16 made to this site that perhaps don't come from WCFU 17 members. 18 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: So did you or were 20 you able to go in through this device and make a post? 21 MR. WARMAN: Sorry. What I was 22 trying to get to is that I just don't have the 23 technical knowledge. At the very least I have no 24 recollection of ever going in and posting using 25 "the-cloak.com" to make --
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: So every time you 2 accessed this site you were using the moniker that we 3 have seen, the Gallic moniker? 4 MR. WARMAN: As I recall. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. 6 MR. BAHR: Madam, I do know for a 7 fact that you can use the cloak to post on other 8 websites. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bahr, you are 10 going to have an opportunity to cross-examine. 11 MR. BAHR: Okay. Sorry. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are also going 13 to have an opportunity to lead evidence, and 14 cross-examination and leading evidence are different 15 things. 16 MR. BAHR: Okay. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. 18 MS WARSAME: Can we go back at HR-32 19 which is at Tab 10. 20 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 21 MS WARSAME: Tab 13, sorry. 22 MR. WARMAN: This is a thread from 23 Stormfront. Again, it is a continuation of the 24 previous thread "video of the raid on my place last 25 May", and if you look at the little horizontal
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1 rectangular box near about 6 inches down from the top 2 right corner, it states that it is page 2 of 5 and the 3 2 is bolded. So you can confirm that. 4 And what essentially this is is this 5 is a continuation of the discussion of the raid and the 6 media CBC article on the raid that took place on 7 Mr. Bahr's residence. There are a number of posts from 8 what appear to be friends and associates indicating, 9 you know, Oh, that's too bad; let's get your stuff 10 back. 11 At page 2 of 9 under my pseudonym, in 12 order to continue sort of monitoring the website, it 13 is -- I used to essentially continue on threads 14 pretending to be this kind of -- or participating in 15 these threads just using innocuous contents. 16 So you will note that I posted on 17 page 2 of 9 just saying, Oh, that is too bad, let us 18 know if there is anything we can do to help get your 19 stuff back. 20 So if you continue along -- 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I am sorry. Why 22 would you do that? 23 MR. WARMAN: Because in order to 24 collect information using a pseudonym sometimes it is 25 important to have -- obviously individuals believe that
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1 you are, at the very least, open to the ideas or 2 interested in learning more. 3 So what that was was simply -- 4 because I was using that pseudonym on the Stormfront 5 website to monitor the activities, if you -- I guess if 6 you post a question, and it is the first time you have 7 ever posted, it is like any other community: You are 8 just going to get ignored. No-one is going to respond 9 to the question you have asked. No-one is going to 10 give you any information. 11 So in order to, I guess, foster an 12 identity within there I would make innocuous postings 13 along the lines of, Oh, that is too bad or Hey, how is 14 it going or those kinds of things just to establish a 15 presence, and then to ask if there was any -- something 16 that I wanted clarification on. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 18 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 19 to direct you at page 8. 20 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Page 8 of 9 is a 21 posting by SS-88. It is the continuation of the video 22 on my -- "video of the raid on my place last May". It 23 states -- it first gives a quote from Exterminance, 24 another individual who has posted previously. It 25 states:
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1 "Hey Glenn, my website and forum 2 are run on an American server, 3 if you're ready to get the WCFU 4 up and running again, I'd be more 5 than happy to supply you with webpages and boards on my 6 forum for them." 7 SS-88 then responds: 8 "I appreciate it but my days 9 with WCFU are done." 10 It then quotes a post by Der 11 totenkopf saying: 12 "let's go get your stuff buddy." 13 And SS-88 responds: 14 "Well hopefully one day I can, 15 gotta wait and see what ZOG" - 16 Zionist Occupational 17 Government - "has in mind for me 18 first." 19 And, again, I believe that is 20 important because it is simply further self-referential 21 material. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then, again, I am 23 not able to read the dates. It looks like it might be 24 close to Christmas here. Is that 12-21-2004? If 25 counsel could clarify that.
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1 MR. BAHR: Well, now we know. 2 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you now 3 turn to Tab 14. 4 MR. WARMAN: This is a thread from 5 Stormfront entitled "Glenn Bahr charged with "Hate", 6 "hate" in quotation marks. It was downloaded by me on 7 the 5th of February, 2005, and provided to the 8 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 9 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 10 I would like to file this document. 11 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of the thread 12 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Glenn 13 Bahr charged with "Hate" will be filed as Commission 14 Exhibit HR-33. 15 EXHIBIT NO. HR-33: A copy of 16 the thread found on the 17 stormfront.org website entitled 18 "Glenn Bahr charged with 'Hate'" 19 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I understand 20 there is a number on the left -- right-hand side number 21 1. 22 MR. WARMAN: This indicates that, if 23 it is the same number 1 that we are referring to, it 24 indicates that Paul Fromm has originated this thread, 25 given it this title and is the first poster.
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1 MS WARSAME: What can you tell us 2 about this posting? 3 MR. WARMAN: What it is is a posting 4 by Mr. Fromm describing the arrest of Mr. Bahr in 5 Langley, British Columbia and his return to Edmonton 6 and his arraignment on Section 319 willful promotion of 7 hatred charge back in Edmonton. Mr. Fromm indicates it 8 is apparently for postings on the defunct Western 9 Canada For Us website. 10 At the bottom of page 1 of 4, 11 referring to Mr. Bahr, he says: 12 "He moved to B.C. in May", 13 and that's the last sentence on the 14 first page. 15 It then continues on page 2 of 4. 16 "More recently Glenn, who moved 17 to the Vancouver area, has been 18 frequent contributor as SS-88 to 19 Stormfront Canada. 20 In the "What you can do", number 1 21 says: 22 "If you're American, call the 23 nearest Canadian consulate or 24 the Embassy in Washington and 25 protest Canada's attack on free
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1 speech and the arrest of a 2 24-year old man for merely 3 posting his views on a website." 4 I believe this is important because 5 it is referenced to Mr. Bahr, and it describes things 6 in Mr. Bahr's life such as his move to British 7 Columbia, and Mr. Fromm, who is, in fact, Mr. Bahr's 8 representative, states in the posting that he was a 9 frequent contributor as SS-88 to Stormfront Canada. 10 MS WARSAME: What can you tell us 11 under "What you can do" number 4? 12 MR. WARMAN: It states: 13 "Send a contribution to help in 14 Glenn's Defence. You can send 15 your VISA and expiry date or 16 mail your cheque to CAFE". 17 Cafe is short for the Canadian 18 Association for Free Expression. It is one of 19 Mr. Fromm's groups. "(Glenn Bahr Defence)", and then 20 it gives CAFE's mailing address. 21 And, again, this was a defence what 22 was nominally or described as a legal defence fund that 23 Mr. Bahr sought to set up to assist in the defence of 24 Mr. Bahr -- sorry, that Mr. Fromm set up to assist in 25 the defence of Mr. Bahr; and then Mr. Fromm gives his
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1 name and the fact that he is the director of the group. 2 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 3 Can you now turn to Tab 15. Are you 4 familiar with this document at Tab 15? 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes. This is a 6 document, and, I am sorry, for some reason the page 7 appears to have a date and the URL link appears to have 8 been cut off, but it indicates that it was last updated 9 on Monday, 29 March, 2004. So it is likely that I 10 would have downloaded it at around that time. 11 It was printed off by me and provided 12 to the Commission pursuant to my complaint. 13 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 14 I would like to file this document. 15 THE REGISTRAR: An article found 16 under CBC website entitled "Edmonton rally shows 17 support for Zundel" will be filed as Commission Exhibit 18 HR-34. 19 EXHIBIT NO. HR-34: An article 20 found under CBC website entitled 21 "Edmonton rally shows support 22 for Zundel" 23 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 24 tell us about this document? 25 MR. WARMAN: This article discusses a
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1 rally that occurred in support of Holocaust denier 2 Ernst Zundel who was at the time detained in Toronto 3 pursuant to a national security certificate that was 4 ultimately upheld and then he was deported to Germany 5 where he is awaiting trial there. 6 It indicates at the top, it says: 7 "About 20 people rallied Sunday 8 in support of Holocaust denier 9 Ernst Zundel. 10 Then at paragraph 3 it states: 11 "Glenn Bahr, from Red Deer, 12 Alberta, was one of the people 13 who attended the rally to 14 support Ernst Zundel's right to 15 free speech." 16 Then if you go down three further 17 paragraphs it states: 18 "Members of the group, who call 19 themselves Western Canada For 20 Us, held signs that said 'Zundel 21 Is Right' and 'Free Zundel Now'. 22 Zundel, 64, who has written 23 works including quote The Hitler 24 We Love and Why, has fought in 25 Canada's courts for the freedom
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1 to express his anti-Semitic 2 views." 3 Essentially the reason why I feel 4 that this article is important is that it refers or it 5 correlates with testimony given by Sergeant Camp about 6 postings that appeared on the WCFU website under either 7 SS-88 or Glenn talking about this particular rally. It 8 indicates that Mr. Bahr was there at this rally. It 9 quotes him. 10 It describes members of the group who 11 call themselves Western Canada For Us, and I believe it 12 is important because it demonstrates the fact that -- 13 it is further evidence supporting the allegation that 14 Western Canada For Us was a group of individuals and 15 that their website by extension would have been the 16 actions of a group of individuals. 17 MS WARSAME: Thank you, Mr. Warman. 18 Can you now turn to Tab 16? 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't have 20 anything in Tab 16. 21 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, it is 'G'. 16G. 22 MS WARSAME: 16G. 23 MR. WARMAN: This is a document that 24 was printed off by me on the 24th of January, 2004, 25 from the stormfront.org website, and it is entitled --
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1 it is a thread entitled "pics of us proud white folks?" 2 It was provided by me to the Commission pursuant to my 3 complaint. 4 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 5 I would like to file this document. 6 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 7 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "pics of 8 us proud white folks?" printed on January 24, 2004 will 9 be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-35. 10 EXHIBIT NO. HR-35: A copy of a 11 thread found on the 12 stormfront.org website entitled 13 "pics of us proud white folks?" 14 printed on January 24, 2004 15 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 16 to refer you now to page -- 17 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, Madam Chair. 18 Perhaps I should just -- because something has just 19 occurred to me with regard to one of your earlier 20 questions, if I could just refer you back to your 21 question regarding the-cloak.com. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. 23 MR. WARMAN: Without entering on 24 stormfront.org you could read it, all the materials on 25 Stormfront, without signing up as a member or without
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1 signing in as a member, but in order to make posts you 2 would have to register as a specific user. So you 3 would have to give whatever the particular pseudonym 4 was and the password for that. 5 So in order to make an anonymous 6 posting, at the very least, the only thing that that 7 would do is hide the IP address that it was coming 8 from. It wouldn't hide the identity of the poster 9 because you couldn't post anonymously on Stormfront. 10 You had to actually enter a specific persona or 11 pseudonym and the password for that person. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we're at 13 'G'. 14 MS WARSAME: 'G', which is HR-35 now. 15 Mr. Warman, I would like to direct 16 your attention to page 2, 2 of 5. 17 MR. WARMAN: Actually if I may, I 18 just perhaps point out that what this is is that it is 19 a thread on Stormfront called "pics of us proud white 20 folks", and what it is is it is a thread encouraging 21 people to show the pictures of themselves and to post 22 pictures of themselves. 23 So what has happened is that a number 24 of people have participated in this and have, in fact, 25 posted what they purport to be pictures of themselves
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1 related to that specific identify that they are posting 2 under on Stormfront. 3 So with regard to page 2, at the top, 4 and for this one, because it was printed off on the 5 24th of January, 2004, the heading -- the date on it 6 says "yesterday", so I would presume that that was, in 7 fact, the 23rd of January, 2004 that that was posted. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is some 9 yesterdays and some todays so presumably that would be 10 January 22 and 3? 11 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Sorry, the 12 yesterdays would be the 23rd, and the todays would be 13 the 24th because if you look at the bottom right 14 that's -- 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 16 MR. WARMAN: So at the top there is a 17 posting by SS-88. It includes the SS lightning bolts 18 as the image, and the "Re pics of us proud white folks" 19 it states: 20 "This is me. I have no hair 21 now." 22 And what we see is three separate 23 pictures of an individual that I believe to be 24 Mr. Bahr. 25 You will also note that the location
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1 of the poster says Red Deer, Alberta, which I believe 2 to have been Mr. Bahr's location at that time. 3 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 4 to now direct your attention to Tab 16J. 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 6 16J -- I should explain that by 7 clicking on any of those images that were attached to 8 the posts that was just previously discussed it would 9 then take you to a separate page on the website where 10 there would be a larger image of those pictures. 11 So when I clicked on the image that 12 is in the middle of the three pictures that were 13 previously posted, it brought me to this URL link on 14 Stormfront. It was printed off by me on the 24th of 15 January, 2004, and provided to the Commission pursuant 16 to my complaint. 17 MS WARSAME: I understand you can't 18 really see the address on the bottom of that page. 19 MR. WARMAN: If I may, just by 20 familiarity, I can likely read it, that it is 21 www.stormfront.org/forum/attachment.php? attachment 22 ID, and then what may be a dash or an underscore 15855. 23 MS WASAME: Madam Chair, my colleague 24 found a better copy where you can see the whole 25 address. Maybe we can make a copy and produce that
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1 one. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. 3 MS WARSAME: I would like to file Tab 4 16J and I will provide a better copy at the break. 5 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of Glenn 6 Bahr's British Columbia driver's license will be filed 7 as Commission Exhibit HR-36. 8 EXHIBIT NO. HR-36: A copy of 9 Glenn Bahr's British Columbia 10 driver's license 11 MR. WARMAN: The reason why I believe 12 this document is important is because, again, it is 13 SS-88 posting it saying that this is me, and what is 14 attached is if you click on that link of the middle 15 picture is a picture of Mr. Bahr. It gives what I 16 believe to be his birth date and gives his location as 17 Langley, British Columbia, which I understand to have 18 been the address that was contained on his British 19 Columbia driver's license. 20 And, in fact, if you cross reference 21 that address on the license plate -- sorry, on the 22 license -- the driver's license, that is the same 23 address at which I understand the Commission to have 24 served Mr. Bahr with the complaint originally, and it 25 is what I believe to be the permanent home address of
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1 his family in Langley, British Columbia. 2 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can I now 3 direct your attention to Tab 16E. 4 Did you download this document? 5 MR. WARMAN: I did. This is 6 downloaded by me from Stormfront, again, having clicked 7 on the sort of image to the far right of Mr. Bahr 8 posted under SS-88 and provided to the Commission 9 pursuant to my complaint. 10 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 11 like to file this document. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of Glenn Bahr's 13 picture will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-37. 14 EXHIBIT NO. HR-37: Copy of 15 Glenn Bahr's picture 16 MR. WARMAN: The reason why I believe 17 this picture to be important is, again, that it is 18 self-referential, that it shows that SS-88 is, in fact, 19 Mr. Bahr. 20 And I think it is also noteworthy 21 that Mr. Bahr in posting a picture of himself has 22 placed what is clearly a large black swastika behind 23 him. 24 MR. BAHR: Sorry, what tab is that? 25 MS WARSAME: 16. 16E.
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1 MR. BAHR: Thanks. 2 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I will ask 3 you now to turn to Tab 17 please. 4 MR. WARMAN: This is a document that 5 was printed off by me on the 5th of February, 2005. It 6 is a thread from Stormfront entitled "Pic thread!", and 7 it was provided to the Commission by me pursuant to my 8 complaint. 9 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 10 like to file the document Tab 17. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of a thread 12 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "Pic 13 thread!" will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-38. 14 EXHIBIT NO. HR-38: Copy of a 15 thread found on the 16 stormfront.org website entitled 17 "Pic thread!" 18 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 19 to direct your attention to page 3 of that document. 20 There is a posting by SS-88. 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes. It is entitled 22 "Pic thread" -- "Re: Pic Thread!", and it states: 23 "This is me." 24 And it then gives a URL link to 25 another page on the Stormfront website.
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1 MR. WARMAN: And I would perhaps just 2 note that the URL link ends with "stc = 1". 3 MS WARSAME: Did you go to that 4 address? 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I did. I did click 6 on that link, and it brought me to the document that is 7 located at Tab 18. 8 If I may, the document at Tab 18 was 9 downloaded by me on the 5th of February, 2005, and it 10 was provided to the Commission by me pursuant to my 11 complaint. 12 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 13 like to file the document Tab 18? 14 THE REGISTRAR: I am sorry, this is a 15 picture of Mr. Bahr again? 16 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 17 THE REGISTRAR: A picture of Glenn 18 Bahr printed by Mr. Warman on February 5, 2005 will be 19 filed as Commission Exhibit HR-39. 20 EXHIBIT NO. HR-39: A picture of 21 Glenn Bahr printed by Mr. Warman 22 on February 5, 2005 23 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, it appears 24 that there has been a hole punch put on it when it was 25 placed on the Commission's file. I can undertake to
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1 get you the actual original without the hole punch on 2 Mr. Bahr's head. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 4 MR. WARMAN: But I would also testify 5 that having seen the document personally it is, to the 6 best of my appreciation, a photo of Mr. Bahr. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 8 MS WARSAME: Mr. Vigna, could I just 9 ask you to make a note for me to get that on the 10 weekend as well. 11 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 12 you to turn to Tab 19. 13 Did you print this document? 14 MR. WARMAN: I did. This was a 15 document that was printed by me from the Western Canada 16 For Us website on the 22nd of February, 2004, and it 17 was provided by me to the Commission pursuant to my 18 complaint. 19 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 20 like to file this document. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Document printed by 22 Mr. Warman dated February 22, 2004 from the Western 23 Canada For Us website will be filed as Commission 24 Exhibit HR-40. 25 EXHIBIT NO. HR-40: Document
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1 printed by Mr. Warman dated 2 February 22, 2004 from the 3 Western Canada for Us website 4 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 5 tell us about this document? 6 MR. WARMAN: This was the -- 7 essentially the initial version of the Western Canada 8 For Us website. After all the discussion of it on 9 Stormfront what happened was that this was the initial 10 version of the website. 11 As you will see, it is very brief, 12 and it originally only contained this content before 13 being expanded. It talks about the fact that -- there 14 is anger about the fact that -- the allegation is that 15 other people, other groups, are permitted to have pride 16 but that whites are not. 17 It alleges that jobs are taken away 18 from what are described as hard working white people 19 and given to minority groups. It makes the allegation 20 that 25 percent of jobs, in fact, have to go to 21 minority groups despite the fact that it alleges they 22 don't make up 25 percent of the population. 23 It derives the fact that tens -- what 24 they describe as tens of billions of dollars are given 25 to Aboriginal groups each year, and that tens of
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1 billions of dollars are given to minority groups in 2 Canada each year. 3 It alleges that the government gives 4 out mere pennies to white Canadians. That schools 5 don't teach white history while they are being taught 6 African and other non-white cultures. It describes 7 Western Canada For Us as a group of "100% white people 8 who are fed up with being treated like second class 9 citizens". It alleges that anyone who alleges that 10 they are proud of their race would lose their job if 11 they are white. 12 Describes the situation that they 13 consider themselves to be living under a tyranny. 14 States that WCFU are planning on 15 starting a number of different businesses just for our 16 people, including a national newspaper, shelters for 17 white families. Welcomes any kind of support. 18 And then gives what are listed as the 19 group's 10 Commandments, the first of which is that you 20 must be a member of the white race to join the group. 21 You must not be -- the third of which is you must not 22 be a homosexual or a bi-sexual. 23 And then it indicates that -- on the 24 right-hand side of the second page of 2 it gives 25 Edmonton and Red Deer just under "Send us an e-mail for
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1 more information", and it is my recollection that if 2 you clicked on either of those you could send an e-mail 3 to what were described as the chapters in those two 4 groups -- in those two cities of Western Canada For Us. 5 MS WARSAME: Now turn to Tab 22. 6 Are you familiar with this document? 7 MR. WARMAN: I am. This is a 8 printed-off thread from stormfront.org entitled 9 "W.C.F.U. needs web designer". 10 It was printed off by me on the 25th 11 of May, 2004, and it was submitted to the Commission 12 pursuant to my complaint. 13 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 14 this document. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the thread 16 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "W.C.F.U. 17 needs web designer" will be filed as Commission Exhibit 18 HR-41. 19 EXHIBIT NO. HR-41: Copy of the 20 thread found on the 21 stormfront.org website entitled 22 "W.C.F.U. needs web designer" 23 MR. WARMAN: What this is is this is 24 a thread discussing the Western Canada For Us website 25 needs a web designer. The initial posting is by Proud
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1 18 who I believe and who has been identified at this 2 hearing by Sergeant Camp as an individual called Peter 3 Kouba, K-O-U-B-A. 4 The initial posting states: 5 "As you all know things have 6 been really busy lately. We 7 could use some help in building 8 and finishing up all our site. 9 With more media coverage on the 10 horizon we need folks to see a 11 completed site. 12 Anybody who can somehow help please 13 contact SS-88. Thank you." 14 There is some discussion that follows 15 about what kind of programming code is best or 16 programming -- website design programs are best. 17 On page 2 of 5 SS-88 posts: 18 "Frontpage sux! Use Macromedia 19 Dreamweaver! PHP all the way." 20 To the best of my knowledge those 21 are, in fact, website design programs. 22 And what I believe is important about 23 that is that it demonstrates that Proud 18 indicates 24 that the person to contact about the website is SS-88, 25 and also that SS-88 later responds indicating what I
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1 believe to be a familiarity with the computer programs 2 used to design websites. 3 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, at the same 4 Tab HR-41, I would like to direct your attention to 5 page 2 of 5, a posting made by Proud 18. 6 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 7 MS WARSAME: And under Proud 18 there 8 is a term "banned". Can you explain that? 9 MR. WARMAN: Yes. In fact, sorry, I 10 would just draw -- before we go there I would draw your 11 attention to the bottom of page 1 of 5. There is 12 another post by Proud 18 that says: 13 "Would like it to look like sf" 14 meaning Stormfront "but with 15 different themed forums and 16 password only forums. 17 We have to finish this site 18 asap. Get ahold of SS-88 to get 19 the info how to work on the 20 site." 21 Again, it refers to SS-88 as the 22 person to contact with regard to the website. 23 And under all of Proud 18's postings 24 there is the small word "banned", and it is my 25 understanding that that is because he was, in fact,
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1 banned using that pseudonym on Stormfront because of 2 his disputatious nature shall we call it. 3 MS WARSAME: Now you say that 4 pseudonym was -- 5 MR. WARMAN: That pseudonym was Proud 6 18, and he was banned from Stormfront, I believe, by 7 the Stormfront moderators using that pseudonym. 8 MR. BAHR: How do you spell that word 9 "disputatious"? 10 MR. WARMAN: Oh. 11 D-I-S-P-U-T-A-T-I-O-U-S. 12 MR. BAHR: Thanks. 13 MR. WARMAN: You are welcome. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: From your review of 15 these posts, Mr. Warman, can you tell me approximately 16 when that -- the identifier "Banned" started to appear? 17 This is the first I have noticed it. It is probably 18 not the first it has been -- 19 MR. WARMAN: Unfortunately, what 20 would happen is that even if a person, let us say in 21 this case, if you look at Proud 18 it indicates on a 22 first posted -- that he has posted 1688 posts. 23 Unfortunately, to the best of my 24 knowledge when a person is banned it would go back and 25 change that for all of those postings.
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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I think we 2 learned that a couple of days ago -- 3 MR. WARMAN: Right. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- about other 5 matters. So once it is changed it changes back 6 retroactively to the start -- 7 MR. WARMAN: Exactly. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. 9 MR. WARMAN: And, in fact, I won't go 10 into the details, but it is my understanding that 11 Mr. Kouba was, in fact, banned a number of times using 12 a number of different pseudonyms. 13 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you now 14 turn to Tab 23. 15 MR. WARMAN: This is a document that 16 was printed off by me on the 25th of May, 2004. It is 17 the second website page of the thread that we just 18 discussed entitled "Re: W.C.F.U. needs web designer". 19 It was downloaded by me or printed 20 off by me and provided to the Commission pursuant to my 21 complaint. 22 MS WARSAME: Is this document printed 23 on the 25th of May, 2004 -- 24 MR. WARMAN: Exactly. 25 MS WARSAME: I would like to file
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1 this document. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Four-page document of 3 a thread found on the stormfront.org website entitled 4 "W.C.F.U. needs web designer" will be filed as 5 Commission Exhibit HR-42. 6 EXHIBIT NO. HR-42: Four-page 7 document of a thread found on 8 the stormfront.org website 9 entitled "W.C.F.U. needs web 10 designer" 11 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 12 to direct your attention to the first posting at page 1 13 by SS-88. What can you tell us about that posting? 14 MR. WARMAN: Again, it is a post by 15 SS-88. It states -- it is a continuation of the 16 discussion. It states: 17 "Thankx everyone for your 18 support but Toth has donated a 19 CMS and is modifying it for our 20 use. I will then program in the 21 pics and add the content. Thanx 22 Toth!" 23 If you turn to page 2. After further 24 discussion of the issue SS-88 again responds saying: 25 "Thankx everyone but I have it
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1 under control. These things 2 don't happen overnight. I'm 3 working on the site and it will 4 be up soon. Be patient theres a 5 lot involved in a big site." 6 And I believe that those postings are 7 important because it reinforces the fact that it was 8 SS-88 who had control over the WCFU website. 9 MS WARSAME: Thank you, Mr. Warman. 10 Can you now turn to Tab 24. Are you 11 familiar with this document? 12 MR. WARMAN: I am. 13 MS WARSAME: Did you print it? 14 MR. WARMAN: I did. It was printed 15 off by me on the 5th of February, 2005. It is a 16 printoff from stormfront.org. The thread is entitled 17 "WCFU online!", and it was printed off by me and 18 provided to the Commission as part of -- pursuant to my 19 complaint. 20 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 21 this document too. 22 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 23 found on the stormfront.org website entitled "WCFU 24 Online!" will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-43. 25 EXHIBIT NO. HR-43: A copy of a
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1 thread found on the 2 stormfront.org website entitled 3 "WCFU Online!" 4 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 5 to direct your attention to the posting by SS-88. 6 What can you tell us about that 7 posting? 8 MR. WARMAN: SS-88 posting under the 9 heading "WCFU Online" states: 10 "Our website is now active." 11 There is a smiley face at the 12 beginning of that. 13 "I'm still adding content etc 14 but please come stop by and take 15 part. Thanks to Melissa from 16 CHA", meaning Melissa Guille 17 from the Canadian Heritage 18 Alliance "for donating us 19 hosting and for the EXCELLENT 20 tech support." 21 It then gives the URL link to the 22 WCFU.com website. 23 And I think that is important because 24 once again it shows that it is, in fact, SS-88 or 25 Mr. Bahr who has control of the website.
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1 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, if it might 2 please the tribunal, can we take a break for 5 minutes? 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 4 --- Adjourned 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back. Be 6 seated. 7 And carry on, counsel. 8 MS WARSAME: Sure. 9 Mr. Warman, can you now turn to Tab 10 25 please. Are you familiar with this document? 11 MR. WARMAN: I am. It is a document 12 that was printed off by me on the 18th of March, 2004 13 from the Western Canada For Us website. It is part of 14 a forum thread, and the thread is entitled 15 "Homosexuals". 16 It was printed off and provided to 17 the Commission by me pursuant to my complaint. 18 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 19 this document please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the thread 21 found on Western Canada For Us website entitled 22 "Homosexuals" will be filed as Commission Exhibit 23 HR-44. 24 EXHIBIT NO. HR-44: Copy of the 25 thread found on Western Canada
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1 For Us website entitled 2 "Homosexuals" 3 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, before we 4 start with this document, can you tell us if you know 5 who is WhiteEuroCanadian? 6 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 7 Pursuant to my observation of the 8 group's formation and also the interactions that 9 occurred, it was my observation that WhiteEuroCanadian 10 was Peter Kouba K-O-U-B-A, the same individual who was 11 posting on Stormfront under the pseudonym Proud 18. 12 You will note the testimony, I 13 believe, has shown that Mr. Kouba and Mr. Bahr were, in 14 essence, the main founders of the group Western Canada 15 For Us. 16 You will note at the top of the 17 middle section just under the "Homosexuals" the 18 moderators are listed as SS-88, Hapmaladroid and 19 WhiteEuroCanadian; and I believe that that is 20 reflective of the fact that Mr. Kouba and Mr. Bahr were 21 two of the main founders or, if not, the two main 22 founders. 23 MS WARSAME: Is there anything in 24 this document you would like the tribunal to know? 25 MR. WARMAN: Yes. This -- this is a
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1 section, as I mentioned, from the Western Canada For Us 2 forum. The WhiteEuroCanadian begins the thread on 3 homosexuals. 4 In discussing homosexuals he begins: 5 "These are not human beings, 6 these are sexual perverts in the 7 same category as pedophiles, 8 beastiality, S&M, etc." 9 S&M referring, I could only presume, 10 to sadomasochism and masochism. 11 "Why in the world of descent 12 morals" -- 13 I presume that is supposed to be 14 decent morals -- 15 "must the majority of the 16 population be subjected to 17 sexual divients like 18 homosexuals? It is a SEX thing. 19 Why give them special status 20 that normal Canadians enjoy? 21 Just because they choose a 22 perverted lifestyle, we should 23 not be forced by our Government 24 to accept it. 25 What is the next sexual
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1 perverted vote our politicians 2 will go after next?" 3 MR. BAHR: Madam, I state my 4 objection to this because I think we have already heard 5 this, and I think the discussion is, again, going away 6 from where it was alleged that I posted as we talked 7 about before, and I don't see how his rants, whatever 8 you want to call them -- 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bahr, just to 10 be clear, that this morning when we were talking about 11 the posts made by you that was in our discussion with 12 respect to the relevance of the question that Mr. Fromm 13 was wanting to ask Sergeant Camp. 14 MR. BAHR: Okay. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they were clear 16 in saying with respect to your complaint, the complaint 17 that you are a respondent to, they will only in the 18 discussion form be dealing with your stuff; but in 19 respect of WCFU they will be dealing with the larger 20 umbrella of postings, and that is part of the reason 21 why we are going to be allowing some questions to be 22 asked of Sergeant Camp. 23 MR. BAHR: Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: So just so you 25 know.
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1 But I agree with you. It seems to me 2 that we have been through this one before. So, you 3 know, avoid repetition as much as can you with 4 Mr. Camp. 5 MR. WARMAN: Certainly. 6 So to the extent then that this 7 simply demonstrates the fact that this a downloaded 8 copy that I myself observed of this material on the 9 website on the 18th of March, 2004. 10 MS WARSAME: Can you please for the 11 record tell which website you are talking about? 12 MR. WARMAN: Excuse me. 13 Westerncanadaforus.com, and you will 14 note that in the URL indicated at the bottom left 15 corner of the printed-off copies. 16 MS WARSAME: Can you now turn please 17 to Tab 26. 18 Did you print this document at Tab 19 26? 20 MR. WARMAN: I did as a matter of 21 fact. I printed it off on the 28th of April in 2004 -- 22 MS WARSAME: Excuse me, Madam Chair. 23 I believe we haven't asked to file Tab 25. 24 MR. WARMAN: I believe it was HR-44. 25 MS WARSAME: Sorry. Sorry. Continue.
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1 MR. WARMAN: This was downloaded by 2 me from the Western Canada For Us website. It is a 3 thread on the forum, and it is entitled "Letters to the 4 Winnipeg Sun Printed Today", and I provided that to the 5 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 6 MS WARSAME: And I understand you 7 printed on the date on the bottom of the page? 8 MR. WARMAN: Yes. The 28th of April, 9 2004. 10 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 11 this document. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the thread 13 found at Western Canada For Us website entitled 14 "Letters to the Winnipeg Sun Printed Today" will be 15 filed as Commission Exhibit HR-45. 16 EXHIBIT NO. HR-45: Copy of the 17 thread found at Western Canada 18 For Us website entitled "Letters 19 to the Winnipeg Sun Printed 20 Today" 21 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you tell 22 the tribunal what do you find important in this 23 document? 24 MR. WARMAN: This is a thread out of 25 Western Canada For Us forum, and it is titled "Letters
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1 to the Winnipeg Sun Printed Today". The first posting 2 in this thread is by Glenn G-L-E-N-N who Sergeant Camp 3 has already identified he believed it was, in fact, 4 Mr. Bahr. That is my belief as well. It is posted on 5 Tuesday, April 27th of 2004. 6 And what this is essentially is it is 7 a response to an article that appeared in a Winnipeg 8 Sun following the debacle of an individual named Jamie 9 Murphy's attempt to begin a chapter there. 10 He attempted to hold a demonstration 11 or a -- sort of an open meeting, I guess, in a local 12 park in Winnipeg. 13 He was met with dozens of anti-racist 14 youth who essentially made it quite clear that, you 15 know, sort of young people in Winnipeg would not 16 tolerate this kind of organizing. 17 He didn't end up having anybody show 18 up to join his group that he had tried to promote and 19 advertised as the Winnipeg chapter of Western Canada 20 For Us. 21 So a columnist for the Winnipeg Sun 22 named Tom Brodbeck writes an article on April 24th, and 23 what he describes is essentially that sort of, you 24 know, ignorance he can handle but that stupidity he 25 can't, and he describes WCFU's efforts in general as
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1 being just simply stupid; that they are, in effect, a 2 gang of white supremacist Holocaust-deniers based on 3 the literature that he viewed on the website. 4 So what this is is this is a response 5 to that article by Mr. Brodbeck that appeared in the 6 Winnipeg Sun. It begins "Racist tag undeserved". 7 "Supreme stupidity by Tom 8 Brodbeck (April 24) is full of 9 errors. Brodbeck writes, 10 'Western Canada For Us -- a 11 white supremacist, 12 Holocaust-denier group -- is 13 apparently trying to open a 14 chapter in Manitoba.'" 15 The letter states: 16 "Western Canada For Us is 17 neither a white supremacist 18 group nor Holocaust-denier 19 group. 20 If Brodbeck had done any 21 research or contacted Jaimie", 22 meaning Jamie Murphy, the 23 individual in Winnipeg, "or 24 myself, he would have learned 25 this. Western Canada supports
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1 free speech, we want to preserve 2 our ancestors' history and 3 heritage. 4 Yes, we do support Ernst 5 Zundel because he is a political 6 prisoner, jailed only for the 7 non-violent invalid of his 8 political views. Mr. Zundel has 9 never been charged, must less 10 convicted, of any act of 11 violation. 12 WCFU opposes the continued 13 detention of Ernst Zundel. 14 We also think the secret 15 hearings that have formed much 16 of the case against Zundel are 17 'un-Canadian'. 18 Brodbeck's article supports 19 our views that being proud of 20 one's 'white race' will always 21 be called racist. 22 Because we are trying to 23 preserve our Canadian and 24 European history we are labeled 25 'Nazis' and 'white
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1 supremacists'. 2 Brodbeck's article is 3 nothing more than an 4 unprofessional rant. I thought 5 journalists were supposed to 6 present the facts to the 7 public!" 8 Signed Glenn Bahr, President and 9 Founder WCFU Alberta Chapter. 10 This is important to me because -- I 11 believe it speaks for itself. It indicates Mr. Bahr 12 posting as Glenn on the WCFU forum. Confirms that he 13 is, in fact, the president and founder of WCFU and the 14 Alberta chapter. 15 MS WARSAME: I would like now ask you 16 to turn to page 2. 17 MR. WARMAN: Sorry, was that entered? 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 19 MR. WARMAN: HR? 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: 45. 21 MR. WARMAN: Thank you. 22 MS WARSAME: Page 2 of the same 23 document. 24 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 25 MS WARSAME: There is a posting on
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1 the bottom by Exterminance. 2 MR. WARMAN: Yes. On Tuesday, April 3 27, 2004, Exterminance posts: 4 "Heather Graham Scott seems 5 blissfully unaware of the fact 6 that the 'First Nations' people 7 are in fact immigrants from 8 Mongolia." 9 He goes on to state: 10 "America is White by right of 11 conquest. The 'First Nations' 12 folks should be happy that we 13 weren't smart enough to 14 eradicate indicate them in 15 entirety at the time of 16 conquest." 17 The inter-linkages with other 18 individuals involved within the white supremacist and 19 neo-Nazi movement are readily apparent here. 20 Exterminance posts a picture of 21 himself. From monitoring this type of activity in 22 Canada Exterminance is easily identifiable as an 23 individual named Bill Nobel previously living in 24 British Columbia but now I believe to be living here in 25 Edmonton.
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1 Mr. Nobel has recently been charged 2 under Section 319 as well of the Criminal Code for the 3 willful promotion of hatred. 4 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I would like 5 to take you back to Tab 1 which is HR-23. 6 MR. WARMAN: I'm sorry? 7 MS WARSAME: Tab 1, HR-23. If you go 8 to page 2 HR-23, which is your complaint form? 9 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Sorry. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I think 11 I might have made a mistake here. 12 I have Tab 1 HR-21 being the 13 complaint. Is that where I am going? 14 MS WARSAME: Sorry, it is my mistake. 15 It is 21. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. 17 MR. WARMAN: I'm sorry, yes. 18 MS WARSAME: I would like you to go 19 to page 2 of your complaint. 20 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 21 MS WARSAME: The bottom of page 2 you 22 are talking about Nazi and neo-Nazi literature. 23 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 24 MS WARSAME: And you mention that you 25 download a list showing the files.
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1 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 2 MS WARSAME: That were available. 3 Did you provide that to the 4 Commission? 5 MR. WARMAN: I did, in fact. I 6 provided a CD copy of images of the pages from WCFU 7 website where it showed that those documents, those 8 electronic documents, were available for download; and 9 in addition I provided pdf copies that I personally 10 downloaded from the WCFU website myself. 11 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 12 MR. WARMAN: On the dates that are 13 indicated in my complaint. 14 MS WARSAME: If you go to Tab 27. 15 MR. WARMAN: Yes, ma'am. 16 MS WARSAME: There is a CD-ROM. 17 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 18 MS WARSAME: Can you view that CD-ROM 19 and tell us if that is the CD-ROM you provided to the 20 Commission? 21 MR. WARMAN: With your permission I 22 will go to the computer. 23 Thank you. 24 Yes. This does look to be the same 25 documents, electronic documents, that I provided to the
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1 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 2 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 3 like to file Tab 27, the CD-ROM Tab 27? 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is one CD-ROM 5 and then an index? Is that the little piece of paper 6 beside it? 7 MS WARSAME: I think there is a 8 printout of what is in the CD-ROM. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 MS WARSAME: Can you review that 11 please, Mr. Warman? 12 MR. WARMAN: Yes. That is an 13 accurate reflection of what I provided to the 14 Commission. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the CD-ROM 16 entitled "Warman v. Bahr & Western Canada For Us 8 17 June, 2004. 1) complaint; 2) Evidence Downloaded Texts 18 & Forum (WCFU) Materials" will be filed as Commission 19 Exhibit HR-46. 20 EXHIBIT NO. HR-46: Copy of the 21 CD-ROM entitled "Warman v. Bahr 22 & Western Canada For Us 8 June, 23 2004. 1) Complaint; 2) Evidence 24 downloaded texts & forum (WCFU) 25 materials"
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1 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I don't 2 think it is necessary to file the content of the 3 CD-ROM. We will be able to explain that as a separate 4 exhibit because -- 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree, yes. I 6 was just trying to identify for myself what it was. 7 Thank you. 8 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 9 Mr. Warman, what can you tell us 10 about the contents of this CD-ROM? 11 MR. WARMAN: What this is is a list 12 of -- a series of pdf files that are copies of the 13 electronic works that I personally downloaded from the 14 WCFU website; and what these three items are is -- are 15 individual snapshots of the WCFU website that contain 16 the links that provided me the electronic documents. 17 With your permission I will open the 18 first one. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. 20 MR. WARMAN: So as you will see, this 21 was downloaded by me on the 19th of March, 2004. All 22 it is is a snapshot of the web page that was on the 23 WCFU website. 24 So this is a list of the files that 25 were available for download. The name is on the
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1 left-hand side. The date that they were last modified 2 on the WCFU website is listed here. Their electronic 3 size here. 4 So under Parent Directory the first 5 thing you will note is that 88 precepts.pdf is 6 described, and that was described by Sergeant Camp in 7 his testimony. 8 If you go down what you will also see 9 is a number of other works that were available. The 10 first one is Mein Kampf that was available on a pdf 11 format. The next is Silent Jew in a pdf format. Then 12 The International Jew in a pdf format. Turner Diaries 13 in pdf format and White Power in pdf format. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice the other 15 files are JPG. That usually stands for -- usually 16 means pictures. Are the rest of them pictures? 17 MR. WARMAN: Yes. What they were was 18 essentially pictures of World War II era and Nazi 19 postcards. Memorabilia if you will. 20 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you 21 explain for the record which document you click on to 22 get that information? 23 MR. WARMAN: I am sorry, can you 24 specify which information -- 25 MS WARSAME: Yes.
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1 If you go back, just for the record, 2 can you explain which -- 3 MR. WARMAN: Sorry. So what I 4 clicked on there was a document entitled "wcfu 5 downloads - full list of files 19 March 2004", sizes 6 5.23 kilobytes and the date modified was March 19, 2004 7 at 3:36 p.m. 8 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 9 MR. WARMAN: So these were 10 hyperlinks, and by clicking on them it would take 11 you -- you will note the link for mein kampf.pdf is 12 seen at the bottom of the page, and it is clearly 13 indicated as being available on the Western Canada For 14 Us website. Same with The Silent Jew, The 15 International Jew, The Turner Diaries, White Power, as 16 well as the 88 precepts. 17 And for the record I say that because 18 at the bottom whenever I move the cursor over the 19 hyperlink that is available for those documents on the 20 page, at the bottom of the page shown in the hearing 21 room, the URL link for those comes up, and the base of 22 the URL link is www.westerncanadaforus.com, and then 23 the subsequent letters and numbers vary depending on 24 the title of the document. 25 If I may?
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1 MS WARSAME: Sure. 2 MR. WARMAN: What I will do is I will 3 show you the next document, which is entitled "wcfu 4 downloads - The International" shortened to "Int'l" 5 Jew. Last modified March 19, 2004, 3:35 p.m., and the 6 size is 23.8 kilobytes. 7 So by clicking on that what that 8 brings up is a picture of what you would get if you 9 tried to click on "mein kampf" from the last page. 10 So what happens is this page would 11 come up, and all of the actual images haven't been 12 saved for whatever reason, but what it shows is, again, 13 that it is a page on Western Canada For Us website, and 14 then by clicking there what happened was that The 15 International Jew authored by Henry Ford was available 16 for download, and, again, the actual URL at which that 17 document would then appear is shown at the bottom of 18 the screen in the hearing room, and the base URL is, 19 again, westerncanadaforus.com. 20 What I would like to do now is show 21 what would have happened if you had clicked on "white 22 power" or "mein kampf" on the first page that I showed. 23 It is entitled "wcfu downloads - white power and mein 24 kampf". Last modified March 19, 2004, 3:36 p.m. 25.4 25 kilobytes.
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1 So what happens is it brings up a 2 page similar to the last one that was shown, and, 3 again, if you scroll down, at the very bottom it shows 4 Western Canada For Us is the website that they are 5 available on, and by scrolling over the title "White 6 Power" and "Mein Kampf" it brings up the fact that 7 these were available as electronic downloads, White 8 Power being by George Lincoln Rockwell, and Mein Kampf 9 by Adolf Hitler. 10 Again, by scrolling over the specific 11 titles, the actual URL that would give you those 12 documents is shown at the bottom of the screen. 13 If I may, what I would like to do, 14 Madam Warsame, is simply take you to the pdf versions 15 of those documents, if I may, that were personally 16 downloaded by me. 17 MS WARSAME: Sure. 18 MR. WARMAN: So starting with, not in 19 any particular order, White Power. 20 This is a pdf copy, Madam Chair, of 21 the document that I personally downloaded from the 22 website. It is entitled "White Power" saved 19 March 23 2004. The description of it indicates that it was 24 downloaded at 3:26 p.m. and the size is indicated at 25 766 kilobytes.
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1 So by clicking on the icon for that 2 document what happens is that White Power in electronic 3 format the book by George Lincoln Rockwell appears in 4 its full text. 5 By moving now to the document 6 described by Sergeant Camp yesterday, 88 precepts by 7 David Lane, again, this was downloaded by me, Madam 8 Chair, on the 19th of March, 2004, at 3:33 p.m. The 9 size of the pdf file is just indicated as 20.5 10 kilobytes, and by clicking on that electronic full 11 version of 88 precepts was available for downloading. 12 Just show it all the way down to 88. 13 Madam Warsame, the next document that 14 I downloaded an electronic version of was The 15 International Jew by Henry Ford. Again, that has been 16 canvassed by Sergeant Camp so I won't go into it. It 17 was downloaded by me on the 19th of March, 2004 at 3:29 18 p.m., and it is fairly large. The size is 2.42 19 megabytes. 20 So by clicking on that document what 21 we get is the same as the excerpts that were tendered 22 by Sergeant Camp. We see that the entire version of 23 The International Jew was, in fact, available for 24 electronic download on the Western Canada For Us 25 website.
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1 So then the last document I would 2 like to show is The Turner Diaries. It was saved on 3 the 19th of March, 2004, at 3:28 p.m., and the size is 4 indicated as 374 kilobytes; and once again, by clicking 5 on that it brings us to the fact that The Turner 6 Diaries already described as one of the most horrific 7 works of hate propaganda in existence is available for 8 download in its entirety from the WCFU website. 9 And that is the end of the work. 10 Madam Chair, I believe that this 11 demonstrates that those documents were, in fact, 12 communicated or caused to be communicated by both the 13 group Western Canada For Us and Mr. Bahr as the 14 controller of that website. 15 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, did you 16 provide the CD-ROM to Officer Camp? 17 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I did. I did send 18 him an identical copy of the CD as I submitted to the 19 Commission demonstrating that all of those works were 20 available for download, and the specific works there 21 that I had downloaded those as pdf versions. 22 MS WARSAME: Unless you want to add 23 something else I would like to move to the next tab? 24 MR. WARMAN: No, thank you. That is 25 good.
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1 MS WARSAME: Can I draw you now to 2 Tab 28. 3 Mr. Warman, did you provide this 4 document to the Commission? 5 MR. WARMAN: I did as a matter of 6 fact. I downloaded it on the 18th of March, 2004, from 7 the Western Canada For Us website. It is a forum 8 thread entitled "Application". 9 I provided it to the Commission 10 pursuant to my complaint. 11 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 12 this document please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 14 found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled 15 "Application" will be filed as Commission Exhibit 16 HR-47. 17 EXHIBIT NO. HR-47: A copy of a 18 thread found on the Western 19 Canada For Us website entitled 20 "Application" 21 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 22 tell us about this document? 23 MR. WARMAN: Well, as you will note, 24 at the sort of the top of the box just below the main 25 heading the forums -- it gives the links that you had
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1 to go through to get to this particular forum. 2 So the initial forum is Western 3 Canada For Us forums, and then the forum that this is a 4 sub-forum of is called "Ethnic Crime Watch", and it 5 came as no surprise to me that nothing under that 6 heading that I witnessed ever described white crime. 7 It was always dedicated towards the actions of members 8 of racial minorities. 9 What this is is this is a post by 10 Tower DB. It's called "Application". Posted on 11 Sunday, March 14, 2004, Tower DB states: 12 "Not sure where to post this, so 13 I'm gonna post it here. I also 14 tried to post it on storm" 15 meaning Stormfront I assume, 16 "but never worked". 17 And essentially it is described as 18 being an "Application to be a Indian", and what it is 19 it is a variety of sort of check-off categories that is 20 just extremely disdainful and disparaging of First 21 Nations people. 22 The initial heading under the 23 "Application to be a Indian" states "Department of 24 Indian & Unimportant Affairs". People are asked to 25 give their name and dates. It then lists address, (if
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1 living in an automobile please give the make, model and 2 license number) implying that many First Nations people 3 live in automobiles. 4 It then misspells the heading "Name 5 of Mudder" M-U-D-D-E-R, name of Fudder F-U-D-D-E-R, 6 implying to my -- certainly to my perception that First 7 Nations people are of low intelligence and cannot 8 properly pronounce or spell "mother" or "father". 9 It then asks for the person applying 10 to be a Native -- to be an Indian to check the 11 automobile that they own, and it says: 12 "If the auto is finananced", 13 being financed I presume, "what 14 is the repossession date", 15 implying that First Nations people 16 are unable to properly budget for their financial 17 affairs, to insure that their vehicles are not 18 repossessed. 19 It states: 20 "Color of car - Blue, Pink, 21 Multi, Primer, Other." 22 Again, the use of something like 23 primer implies to me that they are insinuating that 24 First Nations people do not take proper care of their 25 vehicles, and, in fact, what they are driving around in
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1 are basically, to use their vernacular, junk heaps. 2 And then the next heading is 3 "Approximate estimate of Income", and the only 4 categories provided under "income" that people could 5 fill in are Welfare, UIC meaning unemployment 6 insurance, theft and beer bottles. 7 Again, this is just clearly 8 disparaging of the First Nations community and implies 9 that those are the only possible sources of income that 10 they might have. 11 There is also a clear indication 12 under the heading of "Beer Bottles" that First Nations 13 people are chronic or inveterate alcohol abusers. 14 Place of birth. Again, the only 15 options given are hospitals, back alley, ditch or back 16 of car. 17 Tools or machines you can operate are 18 listed as crowbar, pinball, knife, bingo dabber, match, 19 TV remote, slot machine or other, implying that those 20 are the only possible tools that a First Nations person 21 might be able to operate. 22 Then there is a heading: 23 "Check illnesses you had the 24 last year. 25 Vanilla Poisoning, Alcohol Poisoning,
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1 V.D., Lung Burns (due to gasoline inhalation), Other. 2 You know, it speaks for itself in 3 terms of what kind of hatred and contempt that promotes 4 of the First Nations community. 5 "Number of children". The 6 options are 1st wife, 2nd wife, 7 3rd wife, neighbor's wife and 8 then shackups. 9 "Education". The only possible 10 options are listed as 1st Grade, 11 2nd Grade, 3rd Grade or none. 12 The next heading is entitled "Have 13 you ever been arrested?" The options are "yes" and 14 "no", and states "If no, explain". This is a clear 15 indication of the belief that the First Nations 16 community is almost universally criminally inclined. 17 The next heading is "How many 18 refrigerators and junk cars are in your front yard?" 19 The next heading and last one is: 20 "Other than living for free and 21 drinking all the taxpayers money 22 away, what is your greatest goal 23 in life beside nothing?" 24 And I think that really sums up in 25 terms of, personally from my perspective, the fact that
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1 this entire document is meant to disparage and promote 2 hatred and contempt of the First Nations community. 3 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you now 4 turn to Tab 29. 5 Mr. Warman, if you go back to Tab 28, 6 which is HR-47, first page under "Application". 7 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 8 MS WARSAME: There is a term 9 "Moderators", and you have SS-88. 10 MR. WARMAN: Yes. Hapmaladroid and 11 WhiteEuroCanadian. 12 MS WARSAME: And then if you go back 13 to 26, Tab 26, which is HR-45, under "Glenn" you say 14 "head administrator"? 15 MR. WARMAN: Yes, that is correct. 16 MS WARSAME: Can you please explain 17 the difference if you know, between a moderator and 18 head administrator? 19 MR. WARMAN: Sure. 20 Essentially what moderators can do 21 usually, and again, this is just generic, usually in 22 forums is that they are responsible for monitoring the 23 content of forum postings to insure the application of 24 whatever, you know, rules of conduct may exist in the 25 forum.
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1 And when someone is either the head 2 admin or also the head admin, to the best of my 3 understanding that implies that they have much greater 4 powers in terms of the website, that they can, in 5 fact -- I mean, usually you would be able to change 6 actual content on the website, and not just in the 7 forum, but you are sort of the super-moderator, if you 8 will, and they would also, to the best of my knowledge, 9 have the ability to add or to delete moderators. 10 MS WARSAME: Okay. Now if you go 11 back Tab 28 HR-27, under thread "Application" you have 12 Moderator as SS-88? 13 MR. WARMAN: Yes. There are three 14 moderators listed there: SS-88, Hapmaladroid and 15 WhiteEuroCanadian. 16 MS WARSAME: So what is your 17 understanding about the moderator on top underneath the 18 thread? 19 MR. WARMAN: My understanding is that 20 all three of those individuals are moderators for this 21 website, and that they would have the ability to remove 22 this content if they so desire. 23 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 24 Can you now turn to Tab 29. Did you 25 print this document at Tab 29?
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1 MR. WARMAN: I did. I printed it off 2 on the 26th of April 2004 from the Winnipeg CBC 3 website, and it is a document entitled "Group attracts 4 police, protestors - but not members", and I provided 5 it to the Commission in furtherance of my complaint. 6 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 7 like to file this document at Tab 29. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Article found on the 9 Winnipeg CBC website entitled "Group attacks police, 10 protestors - but not members" will be marked as 11 Commission Exhibit HR-48. 12 EXHIBIT NO. HR-48: Article 13 found on the Winnipeg CBC 14 website entitled "Group attacks 15 police, protestors - but not 16 members" 17 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 18 tell us about this document? 19 MR. WARMAN: I -- what I would do is 20 refer back to Tab 26 HR-45, and this is in general 21 related to the same incident, if you will. It was the 22 attempted expansion by Western Canada For Us into 23 Manitoba by their Winnipeg representative Jamie Murphy. 24 And what HR-48 at 29 is is the CBC's 25 report of what I described previously, the attempt by
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1 Mr. Murphy to go to Assiniboine Park in Winnipeg. He 2 had tried to advertise this around the internet as sort 3 of come out, find out more information and join our 4 group Western Canada For Us. He was, you know, 5 essentially establishing a chapter in Manitoba that he 6 was to be the head of. 7 So here the CBC report says: 8 "A group that says it wants to 9 bring the white race back to its 10 former power" -- 11 Sorry, this was downloaded again on 12 the 26th and the article says it was last updated 26 13 April, 2004. 14 "A group that says it wants to 15 bring the white race back to its 16 former power failed to recruit 17 any new members in Winnipeg on 18 the weekend. 19 Western Canada For Us has 20 been active mostly in Alberta, 21 where they are vocal supporters 22 of Holocaust denier Ernst 23 Zundel. Until CBC began 24 reporting on the organization 25 last week, its website offered
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1 downloads of Mein Kampf and 2 other Nazi materials. 3 Winnipegger Jamie Murphy 4 hoped people interested in 5 forming a Manitoba chapter would 6 attend a rally this weekend in 7 Assiniboine Park. Instead of 8 new members, he was met by about 9 20 anti-racist activists and 10 members of the media, with 11 Winnipeg police officers 12 hovering nearby. 13 Neatly dressed in polished 14 boots, a shirt and tie and a 15 military flight jacket, Murphy 16 stayed cool when activists told 17 them what they thought of him. 18 When it was clear that no one 19 was showing up to join his 20 organization, he expressed his 21 disappointment. 22 'I was hoping that there 23 would be more support, but maybe 24 Winnipeg isn't the market for 25 it - maybe Winnipeg isn't the
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1 kind of place that embraces that 2 kind of thing,' he says. 3 Anti-racist activist 4 Helmut-Harry Loewen says things 5 couldn't have turned out better. 6 'I'm very happy that very 7 little support has been shown 8 for Jamie Murphy and this 9 Western Canada For Us 10 organization here,' he says. 11 Murphy maintains that he is 12 interested only in promoting 13 white pride, and not interested 14 in promoting racial hatred." 15 So the importance of this document, I 16 believe, certainly to me is that it shows that Western 17 Canada For Us constitutes a group of persons acting in 18 concert both in sort of real life and on the internet. 19 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, I will ask 20 you now to turn to Tab 30, the next tab? 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes. 22 MS WARSAME: Did you provide this 23 document to the Commission? 24 MR. WARMAN: I did. Just give me a 25 second. I am just trying to -- yes.
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1 I printed this document off on the 2 3rd of May 2004. It is a thread from the Western 3 Canada For Us website, and the thread is entitled "My 4 resignation letter", and I submitted it to the 5 Commission pursuant to my complaint. 6 MS WARSAME: There is handwritten 7 notes next to the thread. Is that your handwriting 8 notes? 9 MR. WARMAN: It is. 10 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 11 like to file this document. 12 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of a thread 13 found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled "My 14 resignation" will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-49. 15 EXHIBIT NO. HR-49: A copy of a 16 thread found on the Western 17 Canada For Us website entitled 18 "My resignation" 19 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, do you know 20 who is Irishcream? 21 MR. WARMAN: Yes, I do. I had 22 certainly identified him previously, and to the best of 23 my understanding his name was Jamie Murphy, and, in 24 fact, Mr. Murphy signs the letter that he has posted to 25 the website himself at the bottom of it as Jamie
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1 Murphy. 2 MS WARSAME: What can you tell us 3 about this posting? 4 MR. WARMAN: This is a thread 5 entitled "My resignation letter". It is under the 6 Manitoba chapter. 7 Essentially what it is is it is 8 Mr. Murphy submitting his resignation as WCFU's 9 representative in Manitoba. He states: 10 "Today I was faced with a 11 decision I didn't want to have 12 to make. 13 I think, if nothing else, this shows 14 that women are often sort of the better half of a lot 15 of marriages, but she says -- he says: 16 "My wife has told me because she 17 is embarrassed by the bad media 18 surrounding myself that she will 19 leave me if I continue to be 20 involved with WCFU and it's and 21 I quote 'racist ties'." 22 Obviously being that as what his wife 23 had described WCFU to him as. 24 "She says that because she has 25 minority friends that she
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1 doesn't want for her life to be 2 affected by what I have said on 3 the news." 4 Again, this is following the 5 attempted organization and the attempted meeting in 6 Winnipeg in Assiniboine Park, and Mr. Murphy did, in 7 fact, appear on the news. 8 "I don't think the way she 9 thinks and want to continue with 10 the fight but when it comes to 11 my family, that is one thing I 12 don't want to lose. She seems 13 to believe that we cannot change 14 things and that we are just a 15 bunch of racists. It's really 16 upsetting to see that the media 17 has gotten to my wife and 18 convinced her that no good will 19 come of this. 20 I think that if there was 21 more support for the Manitoba 22 chapter and the goals of our 23 group here, this letter wouldn't 24 have had to be written. I 25 regret having put myself out
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1 there just to go back into 2 hiding and resort to living 3 along side those whom take our 4 country for granted and abuse 5 all that we have built for 6 ourselves, but I have no choice. 7 Glenn", whom I presume to be 8 Mr. Bahr, "has been nothing but 9 supportive and a great 10 motivation to what I was trying 11 to achieve and he will achieve 12 great things, but as for myself 13 I think that people have to find 14 out, (in Manitoba) the hard way 15 that the death to their free 16 speech and pride in their 17 heritage is coming. 18 This letter in no way is 19 brought on by anyone involved in 20 WCFU and I wish the best of luck 21 to all of you." 22 Signed Jamie Murphy. 23 MS WARSAME: I would like now to 24 direct your attention to the second page. 25 MR. WARMAN: Actually if I may.
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1 I would just note that at the top 2 right underneath where it says "My resignation letter", 3 you have often pointed me to moderators. 4 MS WARSAME: Yes. 5 MR. WARMAN: I would just note that 6 the moderators are now Glenn, Hapmaladroid, Toth, 7 mobil300 and Irish cream; and the reason why I think 8 that is important is that both WhiteEuro Canadian have 9 disappeared and SS-88 have disappeared, and in my 10 submission that is because SS-88 has simply changed his 11 pseudonym to "Glenn", and I will come to the reason why 12 WhiteEuroCanadian is no longer there shortly. 13 So, sorry, you asked me to turn to 14 page 2? 15 MS WARSAME: Yes. The last posting 16 by Glenn? 17 MR. WARMAN: Yes. There is a posting 18 by Glenn. Underneath the heading "Glenn" there is a 19 flag displayed. The flag is what is called the red 20 unsign, and it is the pre Maple Leaf flag of Canada. 21 For reasons that I have never been 22 entirely clear on, a lot of members of the white 23 supremacist and neo-Nazi movement have adopted this as 24 kind of a pre multicultural sort of 25 British-heritage-back-in-the-good-old-white-days-of -Ca
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1 nada emblem. It is widely -- 2 MR. BAHR: Is that an opinion? 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bahr. 4 MR. BAHR: I am sorry. I just don't 5 think it is fair to say that everybody that adopts that 6 is neo-Nazi. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will have an 8 opportunity to cross-examine. 9 Carry on. 10 MR. WARMAN: I would note that it is 11 promoted heavily by Mr. Fromm's group as a symbol, and 12 that a copy -- and I am sorry, I gave back the photos 13 to you of the items, the flags that were seized in 14 Mr. Bahr's residence when the search warrant was 15 executed. 16 MS WARSAME: HR-11, Madam Chair. 17 MR. WARMAN: Thank you. 18 On the sixth page, page -- it is 19 photographed backwards, but that is the same image that 20 is posted underneath Mr. Bahr's pseudonym on WCFU. 21 So the posting is on Sunday, May 2, 22 2004. Glenn states: 23 "I'm sorry to hear this. I do 24 not have family but I understand 25 they come first. The anti's
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1 will see this as a small 2 victory." 3 And then all caps, bold: 4 "BUT LET IT BE KNOWN WCFU WILL 5 NOT FALTER! 6 Despite the negative label 7 the media has given us we are 8 right! WCFU will continue and 9 keep progressing and" 10 all bold, all caps: 11 "WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE 12 FIGHT! 13 I hope you keep posting 14 Jamie and I know we'll keep in 15 touch. 16 Good Luck brother!" 17 All bold, all caps: 18 "WCFU FIGHTS ON!" 19 Then, again, I think to me certainly 20 that shows that Mr. Bahr is, in fact, the leader of 21 WCFU and is now after the collapse of the Manitoba 22 chapter attempting to what amounts to rally the troops. 23 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you now 24 turn to Tab 31 please. 25 MR. WARMAN: I personally printed off
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1 this document on the 29th of April, 2004. It is the -- 2 it is a thread entitled "A question for racists" from 3 the Western Canada For Us website, and I dropped off a 4 copy of it to the Commission offices pursuant to my 5 complaint. 6 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 7 like to file the document at Tab 31. 8 THE REGISTRAR: A copy of the thread 9 found in the Western Canada For Us website entitled 10 "Question for racists" will be filed as Commission 11 Exhibit HR-50. 12 EXHIBIT NO. HR-50: A copy of 13 the thread found in the Western 14 Canada For Us website entitled 15 "Question for racists" 16 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, there is -- 17 the first page of that document there is a posting by 18 Glenn. What can you tell us about that posting? 19 MR. WARMAN: It is a posting dated 20 Friday, April 23, 2004. Glenn states: 21 "I don't hate but I believe that 22 we have every right to be proud 23 of our 'white' race without 24 being called a racist. I also 25 believe that Europeans who
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1 settled this country should come 2 first before our government 3 spends billions of dollars on 4 fighting crime, unemployment, 5 drugs and welfare because of our 6 lack of immigration laws. I also 7 believe in free speech and being 8 able to express ones opinion. I 9 think there is a Jewish problem 10 and I do not believe all races 11 are equal." 12 Underneath there is the slogan "We 13 pledge our trust and loyalty to each other and our 14 race". 15 Underneath that I think it is 16 important to note in terms of WCFU in general, there is 17 an individual, the individual Bill Nobel, Exterminance, 18 who posts that same day about 45 minutes after Glenn 19 has posted. 20 The second paragraph states: 21 "There are people who hate 22 Blacks. I myself do not. But 23 then, I have never lived near a 24 ghetto. Many of the folks who 25 hate Blacks do live near a
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1 ghetto. And many of those folks 2 have been robbed, beaten, or 3 raped, or had a friend or family 4 member robbed, beaten, raped, or 5 murdered by a Black from that 6 ghetto." 7 If you then turn to the second page 8 of this thread, a posting by an individual named Todd 9 Conroy. Todd Conroy posts on Saturday, April 24th. He 10 states: 11 "My passionate and deep rooted 12 LOVE of my Race unfortunately 13 also causes me to hate those who 14 seek to shackle us into the 15 slavery of being the benefactors 16 for races that are too useless 17 to survive solely upon their own 18 merits. I hate those of other 19 races and of our own who seek to 20 have our once great Race blink 21 out of existence through race 22 mixing and other assorted 23 destructive courses plotted by 24 the perfidious Jew." 25 And I think why those posts are
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1 important, not just for their self evident hatred 2 towards members of the black community and Jewish 3 community and other non-white races, is the fact that 4 Glenn as the head administrator does nothing to remove 5 those documents. 6 What is clearly the allegation that 7 blacks are almost invariably living in poverty in a 8 ghetto and criminally inclined, and the second posting 9 that argues that other -- that non-white races are too 10 useless to survive solely on their own merits, and that 11 the person hates other races and people of their own 12 race who comport or consort with what he alleges is a 13 destructive course plotted by the perfidious Jew. 14 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you turn 15 to Tab 33. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are skipping 32? 17 MS WARSAME: That's correct. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 19 MS WARSAME: Did you print the 20 document at Tab 33? 21 MR. WARMAN: I did. I printed this 22 off on the 30th of April, 2004. 23 It is a printoff of a forum thread 24 called "Battle lines drawn over gay marriage", and it 25 is from the Western Canada For Us website, and, again,
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1 I gave this to the Commission pursuant to my complaint. 2 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 3 that document. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the thread 5 found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled 6 "Battle lines drawn over gay marriage" will be filed as 7 Commission Exhibit HR-51. 8 EXHIBIT NO. HR-51: Copy of the 9 thread found on the Western 10 Canada For Us website entitled 11 "Battle lines drawn over gay 12 marriage" 13 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, if you look 14 at the first page there is a posting by Glenn and 15 underneath that posting it say "head administrator", 16 but if you look on top of that "moderators" you also 17 see "Glenn". 18 MR. WARMAN: Yes. I take those sort 19 of to be one and the same, and it was certainly my 20 belief that that was, in fact, Mr. Bahr. 21 MS WARSAME: Okay. I would like to 22 direct your attention to tab -- to page 3 of 3. 23 MR. WARMAN: I think there are a 24 number things that are important to note. The first is 25 that there is a history of posting, as Sergeant Camp
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1 noted, articles about racial, sexual orientation, 2 immigrant issues, and then kind of letting the chips 3 fall where they may knowing, certainly to my mind, it 4 would be difficult not to know that given the types of 5 comments that are appearing on the forum that it is 6 likely to provoke more comments that would be -- that 7 would expose the groups to hatred and contempt. 8 And on page 3 of 3 that is exactly 9 what happens. Glenn posts an article called "Battle 10 lines drawn over gay marriage. Opponents, supporters 11 launch campaigns"; and what happens is that Der 12 totenkopf posts in response: 13 "These 'gays' should be put away 14 in a mental hospital, there a 15 defect! Why would we give 16 'perverts' any rights?" 17 And I think, again, one of the 18 important things to note is that the symbol for Der 19 totenkopf are the words "National", underneath which is 20 the World War II era Nazi swastika and the word 21 "Socialist" underneath it, and that all of this kind of 22 symbolism is present throughout the WCFU forum, and 23 that none of the moderators, including Mr. Bahr whom I 24 allege certainly was in control of the forum, do 25 anything to remove this kind of imagery.
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1 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I would 2 like to introduce a new document. 3 I will ask the complainant to 4 identify the document first. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Has that document 6 previously been disclosed to Mr. Fromm? 7 MS WARSAME: Yes. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 9 MR. BAHR: Can I just have a minute 10 to -- what was 33 filed as? Sorry, I... 11 MS WARSAME: There was nothing else 12 after that. It is empty. 13 MR. WARMAN: No, sorry, 33 was filed 14 as HR-51. 15 MS WARSAME: 51, sorry. 16 Madam Chair, maybe if we can put this 17 document at Tab 34. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. May we enter 19 it first as an exhibit? 20 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, can you 21 please tell us if you print this document? 22 MR. WARMAN: I did. I printed it off 23 on the 20th of April in 2004. It is a thread from the 24 Western Canada For Us website. It is entitled 25 "WhiteEuroCanadian" - all one word with white -- the
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1 'W', the second 'E' and the first 'C' all capitalized - 2 "is no longer here", and I provided it to the 3 Commission in furtherance of my complaint as per usual. 4 MS WARSAME: I would like to file 5 this document please. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Copy of the thread 7 found on the Western Canada For Us website entitled 8 "WhiteEuroCanadian is no longer here" will be filed as 9 Commission Exhibit HR-52. 10 EXHIBIT NO. HR-52: Copy of the 11 thread found on the Western 12 Canada For Us website entitled 13 "WhiteEuroCanadian is no longer 14 here" 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if anybody 16 has a 3-hole punch. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I do. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are amazing. 19 Thank you for your patience. If I 20 don't do this now I am going to loose it. If anybody 21 else would like to use the punch you are welcome to. 22 So we are putting this at Tab 34? 23 MS WARSAME: Tab 34. 24 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman, what can you 25 tell us about the document at Tab 34 which is now
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1 HR-52? 2 MR. WARMAN: Essentially what I 3 observed on Stormfront and in this forum was the 4 development of what was essentially internecine 5 fighting in-between the two co-founders of WCFU 6 in-between Mr. Bahr and Mr. Kouba, Mr. Kouba being 7 WhiteEuroCanadian and Mr. Bahr being SS-88. 8 There was kind of a division in 9 philosophies, if you will. Mr. Kouba was essentially 10 alleging that Mr. Bahr and his circle of WCFU amounted 11 to nothing more than a bunch of neo-Nazi dilettantes 12 who wanted to just kind of hang out, have barbecues and 13 get drunk whereas his belief and vision of WCFU was 14 essentially really strongly focused on Whiteville and 15 the establishment of the all-white homeland in Alberta. 16 So it had become clear that friction 17 was starting to arise in-between Mr. Kouba and Mr. Bahr 18 and his supporters within the group; and ultimately 19 what happens is as a result of that kind of internecine 20 fighting is, what I believe is Mr. Bahr kicks Mr. Kouba 21 out of the group. 22 And what this is is this is a post by 23 SS-88 head administrator dated Friday, March 19, 2004, 24 and it states: 25 "Due to differences between WCFU
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1 and WhiteEuroCanadian he is no 2 longer here. Do not believe the 3 lies he is spreading." 4 And essentially that is my 5 understanding of what has transpired is that Mr. Bahr 6 has and the others have decided that Mr. Kouba is no 7 longer welcome within their little group. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you remind me 9 when the WCFU site started up? Is it in early March? 10 MR. VIGNA: I don't recall for sure, 11 but I think it was March 8th, but I am not sure. I am 12 relying on my memory. 13 MR. WARMAN: Actually, if I do go 14 back perhaps to the first page -- here we are. So Tab 15 19 HR-40. So this was downloaded by me on the 22nd of 16 February, 2004, and there is the other tab. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is the e-mail 18 that says we are up and running, but I can't read the 19 date on that one so... 20 MR. WARMAN: Right. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is at Tab 24. 22 MR. WARMAN: So I would imagine that 23 once we get that -- 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Once we get those 25 dates filled in --
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1 MR. WARMAN: Yeah. That will answer 2 that question perhaps. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 4 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I am almost 5 done. If I can take 2 minutes with my colleague to see 6 if there is... 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course. 8 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, I believe I 9 am almost done, the Commission is almost done with 10 Mr. Warman's evidence. 11 However, I would like to adjourn 12 today and then come back tomorrow morning -- Monday 13 morning if I have any more questions. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: You still have got 15 45 minutes. How about I give you 15. It would be nice 16 to know that Mr. Warman's evidence is concluded, if 17 that is possible. I mean, unless there is a reason why 18 you need the weekend to review the matter, I would 19 prefer that we just get it done. 20 MS WARSAME: Perfect. Then we take 21 15 minutes if possible. Thank you. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. 23 --- Adjourned 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hello. Be seated. 25 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, before we
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1 start, I know you asked a question with respect to WCFU 2 and when the website was online for the first time. 3 If you look at HR-3. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, that is the 5 bundle of e-mails. HR-3, okay. 6 MS WARSAME: Almost at the end there 7 is a posting by SS-88 and the name of the thread is WCF 8 website online. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there like a 4 10 or a 5 or a 1 of something? 11 MS WARSAME: 1 of 5. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: 1 of 5, okay. Here 13 we go. Thanks. You are right. That was March 8, 14 2004. Thank you. 15 MR. WARMAN: Madam Chair, just for 16 greater specificity, I would just note that HR-40, 17 which is at Tab 19, because there was essentially -- 18 there was the prototype Western Canada For Us website 19 and then there was the bigger Western Canada For Us 20 website, if you will. So you will note that the date 21 on HR-40 is 22 February, 2004. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, it was a work 23 in progress for a while. 24 MR. WARMAN: Exactly. 25 So if we say, you know, February,
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1 early March, I think that is fair. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay. 3 Thanks for that. 4 MS WARSAME: Mr. Warman. 5 MR. WARMAN: Yes, Ms Warsame. 6 MS WARSAME: Is there anything else 7 you want to provide to the evidence you provided to the 8 tribunal this afternoon? 9 MR. WARMAN: I think the only other 10 thing that I would mention, Madam Chair, is that in 11 some of the material that there is a term called 12 "racialist" that has been used as sort of a 13 self-descriptor for some of the individuals involved; 14 and just in terms of my observation of this, sort of 15 these movements over the past sort of 20 years or so, 16 when someone uses the term "racialist" usually what 17 they are trying to describe themselves as is saying I 18 am not a racist, I'm a racialist, implying somehow that 19 all I want is for white people to be able to live on 20 their own. I don't want to necessarily harm or destroy 21 people who aren't white, but that is what I want. 22 It is similar to the euphemism of 23 calling one's self a white nationalist or that you are 24 only interested in white pride, and as I described in 25 my opening remarks, sort of the pre-cursor organizing
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1 to Western Canada For us, what would ultimately become 2 Western Canada For Us. 3 In August of 2003 around the 4 organization of this white pride rally on the Alberta 5 legislature steps the main organizer who was describing 6 it as a white pride rally, all of his posts on 7 Stormfront were accompanied by an avatar, the little 8 symbol of a swastika, what was clearly a swastika. 9 So that is why essentially I describe 10 terms like "white nationalist", "racialist" or "white 11 pride" as euphemisms, and certainly from my experience 12 and observation of them, I have never met or seen 13 anyone who uses those terms to describe themselves who 14 I would have any doubt in my mind is, in fact, 15 espousing views that are racist, member of the white 16 supremacist or neo-Nazi movements. 17 Just on the basis that as Sergeant 18 Camp testified, when these groups try and put on their 19 happy face out in public, they have to tone down the 20 image, they have to tone down the language a bit if 21 they want to attract middle Canada, if you will, 22 whereas it has been my experience certainly that if you 23 scratch a little bit under the surface of those terms 24 usually the people or the groups involved are, in fact, 25 there is something substantially more to that.
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1 MS WARSAME: Madam Chair, the 2 Commission has no more questions for this witness. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, we get 4 to go home early on a Friday. It is 20 to 5. 5 Just so I am clear, on Monday morning 6 then we are going to continue the cross-examination of 7 Sergeant Camp, and that will be -- so that is what we 8 are all expecting at that point. 9 Well, have a lovely weekend. Go 10 Oilers, and we will see you on Monday morning. 11 MS WARSAME: Thank you. 12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:40 p.m. 13 to resume on Monday, May 29, 2006 14 at 9:30 a.m. 15 16 17 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I HAVE, to 18 the best of my skill and 19 ability, accurately reported and 20 transcribed the foregoing. 21 22 23 ______24 Darlene Sirman 25 C.S.R.(A), R.P.R.
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