TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BOARD OF INQUIRY
Basin Bridge Proposal
HEARING at BASIN RESERVE, MT COOK, WELLINGTON on 21 May 2014
BOARD OF INQUIRY:
Retired Environment and District Court Judge Gordon Whiting (Chairperson) James Baines (Board Member) David Collins (Board Member) David McMahon (Board Member) Page 7243
APPEARANCES
10 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7244 [10.27 am] CHAIRPERSON: Yes, good morning everybody. For those who have been kept waiting, we had a request to delay proceedings while some parties 5 tried to reach agreement on matters and so we are always anxious for parties to reach agreement, if they can. MR CAMERON: If I can say, I am obliged to the Board and I am obliged to those who have been kept waiting as well. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr Cameron. Now, Mr Cameron? MR CAMERON: Thank you, sir. 15 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, welcome back, Mr Kenderdine. MR KENDERDINE: Thank you, your Honour. 20 MR CAMERON: Now I think Mr Kenderdine, you have got to the point in the reading of your supplementary statement where you had read to the end of part nine - - - 25 MR KENDERDINE: We did skip part seven for – which all be it would be - - - MR CAMERON: Yes. 30 MR KENDERDINE: - - - reasonably brief, but maybe pertinent - - - MR CAMERON: Perhaps you can go back to part seven - - - CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do not think there is a need for that is there? 35 MR CAMERON: No, we agreed that that can be taken as read. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 40 MR KENDERDINE: Okay. MR CAMERON: We agreed that that can be taken as read. CHAIRPERSON: So it is just relating to conditions? 45 MR CAMERON: Yes. Mr Kenderdine and - - - Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7245 MR BAINES: I brought a wrong book. Can I just pop out? CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Baines has brought his wrong book. 5 MR BAINES: I brought the wrong book with me. CHAIRPERSON: You pop out and get it, - - - 10 MR...... : The “other” red and black book. CHAIRPERSON: - - - but do not pinch my one this time. He had – I lost one of mine for three weeks I hunted for it, I hunted all through home and blamed my wife for pinching it, went into my chambers at Auckland, 15 hunted through my office, looked in every bag that I had, it was in his box. MR BAINES: Well, I am sorry wait until question time tomorrow. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So that is what you get for leaving - - - MR BAINES: Can I just go and get my correct book? CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that is not my one, I hope. 25 MR CAMERON: Ms Wedde has an interesting story to tell about where she left her books here on one occasion. They did end up in the bus terminus at Lyall Bay. 30 CHAIRPERSON: Is that right? MR CAMERON: But it was found. So yes, it is a problem, well, it can be. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Many a confidential file has fallen off a truck. 35 [10.30 am] MR CAMERON: Indeed. sir, while Mr Baines is retrieving his book, I intend to have Mr Kenderdine complete the reading of his evidence. 40 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: And then I am going to re-examine him in the ordinary course, after both Ms Jones and after the completion of all cross- 45 examination, rather than doing it piece-meal. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7246 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I think Ms Jones would appreciate that too. MR CAMERON: I am sure she would, Sir, because it could take some time to work through the other issues. 5 MR BAINES: Thank you very much. MR CAMERON: No. Not at all. Right. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: So if we turn to part 10, Mr Kenderdine and we will walk – move forward from there – and - - - 15 MR KENDERDINE: Certainly, Mr Cameron. MR CAMERON: Thank you very much. MR KENDERDINE: The National War Memorial Park traffic. I have been 20 asked a question about the potential to allow vehicles exiting the underpass to turn left into Taranaki Street. There are a number of issues to be considered before a decision on this can be and I note my experience of a similar band, when we first averted Buckle Street to the north to enable construction of the underpass. 25 After a review, an operational decision was made to allow the left turn from the shared lane, and this has performed satisfactorily. A safety audit of the option of allowing the left turn once the underpass is complete, is currently under way, which involves a formal decision- 30 making process with input from safety auditors, designer and the transport agency safety engineers. This will culminate in a final decision by the transport agency as to how the intersection is operated initially. 35 I also noted that such matters are continually reviewed and adjustments to operation made from time to time. MR CAMERON: Sir, I should perhaps add to that, because I think it should be done now for completeness and of course that is subject to the 40 Board’s decision on the matter or the determination of the Board on the point. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 45 MR CAMERON: Yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7247 CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR CAMERON: No, I would not want - - - 5 CHAIRPERSON: No. No. MR CAMERON: - - - that part to be read on the assumption that that would be in some way ignored - - - 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: - - - or overlooked. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15 MR KENDERDINE: The Park Road links. I understand also there has been discussion about the various road links around the National War Memorial Park, including how they will operate and when they will be open. This can be summarised based on current planning as follows. 20 The underpass will be open for traffic in October with the likelihood that all three lanes will be open. At this point, Tory Street will become a cul-de-sac again, with no access to State Highway 1. Tory Street will be connected through to Tasman Street in January 2015 as a slow speed 25 link through the park. Buckle Street West, between Tasman Street and Taranaki Street, will remain a cul-de-sac as it is now, until March 2015 and the road will then be opened as a one way link westbound from Tasman Street to Taranaki Street. 30 Current indications from Ministry of Culture and Heritage are that the link will be closed when the National War Memorial is open, approximately 10 am to 4.30 pm and then opened up to slow speed through traffic at night. This will enable vehicular exists to Massey University and the National War Memorial during the day and provide 35 the tiered benefits of passing traffic at night. Buckle Street East, between Tasman Street and Sussex Street will be built as a cul-de-sac in March 2015 closed at the Sussex Street end. It will remain like this until the bridge is complete, when it will then 40 provide a one way slow speed link from Sussex Street up to Tasman Street. On the northern side of the park, the parking area for the National War Memorial will comprise a one way eastbound lane from Martin Square 45 to Tory Street. It is intended to include short stay parking for the Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7248 National War Memorial and some drop-off areas for the Mount Cook School. This will be opened in March 2015. In the north-eastern corner of the park, a cul-de-sac will provide access 5 to the rare of the crèche and will include nine parking spaces. This will also be opened in March 2015. While this is the intention and the current plans, I know that timing may change as work progresses and operational decisions could change 10 how particular aspects function. If I may draw your attention to the image, which is Annexure F. That just shows those roads that I was talking about. 15 [10.35 am] CHAIRPERSON: If you could just run us through that. MR KENDERDINE: So what I call – starting at the top is the underpass, 20 obviously, with two lanes coming off Sussex Street going into tunnel, and effectively three lanes open coming out of the tunnel. Then Tory Street, which runs from the top of the page down to a point just on the corner of the police barracks, will be shut off. It currently turns onto the temporary road, so it will be shut off to enable us to complete the work 25 over the top of the box which is in that area I am indicating, immediately inside the tunnel, or immediately above the inside of the tunnel. And then Buckle Street west, which we refer to a lane that goes through 30 the centre of the parade ground, that will be closed during the day so that traffic will be forced up and around the back of the National War Memorial and back out and down onto Taranaki Street, and then opened at night is the way the Ministry of Culture and Heritage is preferring to operate that link. There is some lengthy debate going on 35 between Massey University for instance, the National War Memorial Council, and the advisory bodies associated, the RSA, as to exactly how that should work. Buckle Street east, which we refer to the stretch of Buckle Street 40 between Tasman Street and Sussex Street, down through here the intention in the long term, is to open that back up to traffic as a one- way slow-speed environment. However, that currently is not planned to occur until the bridge would be opened and the two lanes turning down off Sussex Street into the underpass become one lane. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7249 The northern lane that I refer to is the one that runs connecting Martin Square, along the southern boundary of Mt Cook School, behind the Australian War Memorial which is this area on the northern side of the parade ground, and through down to Tory Street. The other part of the 5 northern lane is the eastern part, which runs along the side of the Te Papa archives building, provides access to the rear of the crèche as well as some parking for the National War Memorial Park, and access into the Te Papa archives in the middle of the building about there. There is a pedestrian access there. 10 MR BAINES: So can I just be clear you said that when it opens there will be two lanes going from Sussex Street into the underpass. MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 15 MR BAINES: Ultimately it is intended that there would be only one – that that would then be converted, you say, to one lane, in a future configuration. 20 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR BAINES: All right. MR KENDERDINE: So if the project is approved and the two lanes are 25 coming off the bridge, - - - MR BAINES: Right. MR KENDERDINE: - - - or for that matter, the two lanes of option X, then 30 you would have one lane coming down from Sussex Street into the underpass. MR BAINES: Right. And going right at the north end of Sussex Street are two lanes, from this diagram? 35 [10.40 am] MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so turning down to the Basin - - - 40 MR BAINES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: - - - is still - - - MR BAINES: Two lanes. 45 MR KENDERDINE: - - - two lanes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7250 MR BAINES: Thank you. MR KENDERDINE: I would say that is a matter of the NIP, which I believe 5 has been discussed. It is, I think, the Network Integration Plan. We will be temporarily, during the construction of the project, restricting that to one lane. But the intention today is to open it back up to two lanes. MR BAINES: When you open in August or what-have-you, this year, there 10 will be two lanes going left and two lanes going right. MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. MR BAINES: Thank you. 15 MR CAMERON: But that will be before the bridge is operation. MR BAINES: Yes. It is just when it opens. 20 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR BAINES: When it reconnects to the network. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 25 MR CAMERON: Yes. And the two lanes going right – - - - MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 30 MR CAMERON: - - - No, I should not do that. I should not interrupt. MR KENDERDINE: Inner-city bypass: In a similar fashion, I can describe the staging of the work on the inner-city bypass as follows. We are just completing the work on the westbound route, comprising an additional 35 traffic lane and consistent cycling route on Arthur Street and Karo Drive. We have also added an additional lane on Willis Street south of Karo Drive, that is just before you dip down towards the tunnel, the terrace tunnel. We are in the process of adding an additional lane to Victoria Street, between Abel Smith Street and Webb Street. And if the 40 Board of Enquiry grants consent for the bridge, we will then construct the changes at Kent, Pirie, Cambridge, and Vivien, including the Vivien Street clearway between Tory Street and Cambridge Terrace. We are currently working with Wellington City Council on designs for Vivian and Victoria Streets as we look to integrate transport 45 improvements with streetscape upgrades. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7251 Conclusion: The construction of the project has the potential to create adverse environmental impacts. However, based upon my experience from the National War Memorial Park project construction, I believe that the project can be constructed without these potential adverse 5 effects materialising. To achieve this, it is essential that there is good communication between all parties as well as an effective environmental management system. The proposed conditions help establish a framework for this. The environmental management of the site needs to be regularly monitored and adjusted as necessary. And I 10 believe the alliance model is ideal for ensuring the park is constructed without significant adverse effects. 15 MR CAMERON: Now, I want to ask you a number of supplementary questions. In relation to the issue of noise and the experience of the alliance in managing that issue in the context of the park project, and if we, for example, take Tasman Gardens as an example and we assume that, from time to time, there have been high levels of noise requiring 20 management, what has been the process followed by the alliance, having regard to the conditions of development consents in relation to that issue? MR KENDERDINE: The primary process we do is testing the activities so 25 that we can understand the noise envelope, particularly, before we get too far into it. MR CAMERON: Yes. 30 MR KENDERDINE: You will appreciate this is a somewhat fast-track process, - - - MR CAMERON: Yes. 35 MR KENDERDINE: - - - and we have not been as successful at that as we would like. However, we then involve those key stakeholders, and if you take Tasman Gardens as an example, we do endeavour to notify them when activities that we are going to carry out may impact them adversely. We try to work around specific events. So there are over 30, 40 from memory, events at the National War Memorial in a given year. And they range from ANZAC Day, as it was in 2013, which was quite a significant televised event while we were constructing, through to merely, dignitaries stopping off and laying a wreath at the team of an unknown warrior. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7252 [10.45 am] Where we can, if that is going to occur outside, then we will endeavour to make our noisy operations still at that time, or coordinate with 5 people as to when that time may occur. So we normally have breaks at 10 or 10:30, and that often works for someone to come and lay at that time. So we will have our morning break, so the noisier operations will cease, and they can come and lay the wreath in relative peace and quiet. 10 MR CAMERON: Okay, now in terms of sleep disturbance, and in particular, at Tasman Gardens, and just to get to the point here – As I understand the position, on occasions work has been done in hours which would be commencing at 4am and in particular, in the case of the tunnel, for example, during a concrete (INDISTINCT 1.19). 15 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: What arrangements, if any, have been made with Tasman – Sorry, how has that issue been managed with the Tasman Gardens 20 residents, please? That is the question. MR KENDERDINE: We are in constant communication with a number of residents of Tasman Gardens and the chair of the body corporate, Ms Booth, who has presented. To date, we have provided the earplugs 25 which was the very base activity, and we are talking to a couple of particularly affected residents as to whether, as our concrete pours and activity actually moves down closer to Tasman Gardens, that we may relocate them temporarily, on those particularly active early mornings. 30 MR CAMERON: Is Tasman Gardens double glazed? MR KENDERDINE: I do not know the answer, to be honest. I could find out. MR CAMERON: Thank you. And in relation to the manner of managing the 35 way in which this issue has been managed from the Tasman Gardens perspective, has that management been tailored to the specific circumstances that are being encountered or, sorry, the specific work being undertaken by the alliance at any given time in relation to the effect of that work on individuals within, for example, the Tasman 40 Gardens? MR KENDERDINE: If I am understanding - - - MR CAMERON: In other words, are you tailoring it to the individual or the 45 entity, or both? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7253 MR KENDERDINE: Well both, I guess, because we discuss with both. We have struck issues where communicating with what might deem to be a body corporate for instance, for whatever reason, may or may not be getting through to the tenants, for instance. If the tenants are not on that 5 body corporate, sometimes they do not get the same information, so we really endeavour, through letter drops and emails, to get to everyone that will be affected. We have had, I guess, where we have had a number of events quite close together, and have had feedback around the fact that someone is doing something specific coming up and they 10 need a break, we have then endeavoured to postpone or reallocate work to make account for that. MR CAMERON: Okay, so can I ask you this question: In the formulation of a noise condition for example, relevant to, specifically, the Grandstand 15 apartments, what in your opinion is the right approach to that exercise, having regard to the experience that you have had in relation to Tasman Gardens? [10.50 am] 20 Is it, on the one hand, to set rules that are very direct and specific, or directive? Or is it to couch the condition in a form which allows for a management process of a kind that you have described? 25 MR KENDERDINE: I would, in my opinion, the management process must be the approach. And I say that because the strict black and white process, if you go down the strict black and white process, never quite takes account of either side’s situation. There are always times which fall outside that. 30 And we would like to be seen as responsive to people’s needs and wants. MR CAMERON: Yes. 35 MR KENDERDINE: So, for instance, what might seem a logical requirement for temporary traffic management and I am, I guess, thinking forward here, for schoolchildren running around the streets may not account for schoolchildren doing their cross-country on the streets 40 But if one of the schools was to come and say, on this day we would like to do this, can you postpone things, then that is all about the management, that is not about the black and white. And we would endeavour to incorporate that sort of activity in any way we can. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7254 I mean we are very mindful of, for instance, I think the figure is 4,000 students in the area. MR CAMERON: All right. If I can just have a moment please? 5 MR BAINES: Can I ask a question while we are waiting? Just following on from your discussion with Mr Cameron then, do you at various points in time sort of look back at, you know, how our relationship with, let us take the example of Tasman Gardens. 10 How our relationship with Tasman Gardens has gone, how our dealings with them have gone and say to yourselves, you know, we could have done certain things better, let us make sure we do things better in the future in terms of perhaps different channels of communication and so 15 on? MR KENDERDINE: Definitely, definitely. - - - MR BAINES: Right. 20 MR KENDERDINE: - - - I mean we have had, I guess there is a lot of focus on the National War Memorial Park and underpass - - - MR BAINES: Yes. 25 MR KENDERDINE: - - - for obvious reasons. But our experience, for instance, in the inner city bypass work has been that we have definitely had the time to look back on that say and well, okay, that is how we did it, how did we want to do it? And how do we want the community to 30 be engaged with that? MR BAINES: Right. MR KENDERDINE: So yes, we are definitely finding and exploring new 35 ways, the timing of meetings, the timeframe between when we might first talk about work and when that work occurs. All of those things are now being part of our communication strategy. MR BAINES: Right, right. The other thing that occurs to me is that whenever 40 you get a major construction project, like the one you are involved in, very familiar territory to you because that is your line of business, all right? But for most communities and this one here, it might be the first time 45 they have ever been living nearby. So for affected communities it is Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7255 often something that is completely new, novel, we do not know what to expect, we expect the worse and so on and so forth. Whereas for the people doing it, and you have described, you know, 5 how you really use your best endeavours to make as a responsive an exercise as possible. I am wondering how that sort of knowledge and experience gets transmitted? You know, why does every community in a sense have to 10 go through the same fear and learning exercise. Is any of this, I mean you obviously do not want to like, write great reports on what happened. But you gave a really interesting example there, you know, the schools 15 wanting to do cross-country. Yes we can in fact accommodate schools doing cross-country. It is not difficult, we do that all the time. And yet that is not common knowledge is it? I mean people would assume that those things become, you know, 20 impossible. [10.55 am] MR KENDERDINE: Yes, is the short answer. Yes, it is very challenging 25 taking people who are not experienced with this sort of structure, and also how we might respond to their requests. MR BAINES: Yes. 30 MR KENDERDINE: So we often get, oh, can we do that, - - - MR BAINES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: - - - as a response, and we say, sure. 35 The main thing we do is try and get, bring people in a reasonable sense into our world and conversely for us to get into their world. - - - MR BAINES: Right. 40 MR KENDERDINE: - - - Because you are right, we are all used to arriving at work at six or seven and starting work on large, noisy bits of equipment and working in this sort of environment. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7256 We do things like we invite people into the office, we have a booth, a viewing booth, which is open during the day just to allow people to look. - - - 5 MR BAINES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: - - - To go into what is a quiet area if you like, and look at what is going on around them. 10 Because, interestingly enough, if you do not have the booth as a visiting booth, they will just walk past and will not necessarily stop and actually look at what is going on. So that process of education is really important, both ways. - - - 15 MR BAINES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: - - - So we need to know what is really sensitive for someone else, i.e. the National War Memorial Hall and their operation versus our operation. And often times we can both accommodate, as 20 long as there is that communication. So the learning curve, if you like, is a process that we need to start as soon as possible so that people can feel comfortable with what we are talking about and how we are approaching it, particularly as we have 25 got a live example running outside the window, before we get into it outside their front door. MR BAINES: Thank you. 30 MR CAMERON: And while we are on this topic, does the alliance carry out stakeholder surveys? MR KENDERDINE: We do. 35 MR CAMERON: And do you get a good response in relation to those surveys? MR KENDERDINE: We have so far, yes. 40 MR CAMERON: And what has been the response in terms of the way in which people are reporting to you from their perspective, the management techniques that you have described, in terms of their success or otherwise from their perspective? 45 MR KENDERDINE: The stakeholder research we do is multi-pronged. There are interviews with key parties at one level, then there is an open Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7257 invitation to people to submit, complete a survey via email, at another level. And then we do face-to-face surveys on the cycle, pedestrian access around the site. And we also do electronic survey of time delay or otherwise caused by our works. 5 So we have that, that sort of suite. We also, obviously, have a lot of face-to-face meetings, which are separate again. The key stakeholders, as a rule, have been very positive about the 10 engagement and by that I mean the school, National War Memorial Park, Mount Cook Police Barracks, Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Culture and Heritage. MR CAMERON: Residents? 15 MR KENDERDINE: And Tasman Gardens. - - - MR CAMERON: Yes. 20 MR KENDERDINE: - - - So, obviously, Tasman Gardens are there all the time - - - MR CAMERON: Yes. 25 MR KENDERDINE: - - - and they are very much an affected party from those early morning concrete pours. They are – well I think probably the best person to answer that response was Ms Booth, who said, and I might be paraphrasing, but it is something like a marriage. Where it has its ups and downs, but you have got to keep talking, you have got 30 to keep working through it. [11.00 am] And that is probably a reasonable analogy, because it can be a bit feisty 35 at times. I believe she used the example of the night before she turned up to give her representation where a series of events conspired for us to send out a relatively late notification of an early morning concrete pour and I’m very apologetic for that. But there are constraints on what we are doing in terms of being complete in time. So, the email survey 40 feedback, I guess, is the one where we’ve taken Mr Baines’ point, we’ve really had to take a long hard look at what we’ve done in terms of the inner city bypass, because we’ve got some fairly strongly worded feedback there about how we could improve and we’ve taken that on board and we are endeavouring to do so. Does that explain? 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7258 MR CAMERON: Yes. So there is this process which is immediate and interactive that you’ve described and there’s also the post, if you like, survey type approach, which occurs through the management and is an integral part of the management process so that you can continue to 5 adapt and develop this as you go along. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR CAMERON: Is that really, though, an overview of the position? 10 MR KENDERDINE: Very much so. MR CAMERON: All right, now, while again, we’re on this subject. Yesterday you were asked overnight to quantify the number of days, 15 the number of nights, where particular activity may occur outside ordinary working hours. Have you done that exercise, please? MR KENDERDINE: I have. 20 MR CAMERON: And can you now please produce, as Kenderdine 01 the material that you have prepared? CHAIRPERSON: No, that hasn’t been produced. I think that has was probably an overlook on Mr Milne’s part. 25 MR CAMERON: So, I’m going to call this Kenderdine 01. EXHIBIT # KENDERDINE 01 – AFTER HOUR FIGURES 30 MR CAMERON: Now, can you just walk us through this document, please and then explain to us what it means in terms of what the Board can anticipate being the times or the frequency with which work will be done out of hours. 35 MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. The purpose of this supplementary is to assist the Board with the number of times the proposed Basin Bridge project may have to work outside the hours of 6 am to 8 pm Monday to Saturday, or Saturday afternoon. 40 Section 4.3 of my summary evidence dated yesterday stated, Table 1 of my evidence in chief provided a description of the activities that needed to be undertaken outside normal working hours and the percentage of time involved. This table shows that, with the exception of traffic relocations, the majority of activities will be undertaken in 45 normal working hours. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7259 In response to a request from the Board, I have developed the information contained within Table 1 of my evidence in chief, to give an estimate of the number of actual nights when different types of activity will occur outside the working hours of 6 am to 8 pm Monday 5 to Saturday. So, I have provided a Table, on the Table are the replica of the activities that were in the original Table. I then have a column, which is the overall duration and, by that, if I start, if I take piling, that being the 10 first off the list, in mid-September one year and finish in late August the next year, it is effectively a year’s duration, so I have used every calendar day in my calculation. That being what the receiver is experiencing. They live those days. And then I have number of nights that those activities may take place. I then have a comment as to, sort of 15 the intensity and the likely activity that are associated with that. So, if we go through piling … CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you don’t need to go through the Table. We can take that as read. 20 [11.05 am] MR CAMERON: Now I think just to make sure that we can take this to the next level of understanding and it is not a matter I have discussed with 25 you in advance Mr Kenderdine, so just bear with me and we will see if we can work our way through this. If for example, and take for example Grandstand Apartments as an example and we go back to your staging material and we consider this 30 information here in the context of staging and the frequency with which residents for example at the Grandstand Apartments are going to find that activity might occur at night time and the spread of those activities and when they may occur, can you assist us to understand that a little better please? 35 MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. If I could take members and people to BRN14021 which I will refer to as stage two. MR CAMERON: 1421, thank you, but I think the document, the stage two is 40 stage three. MR KENDERDINE: Oh sorry, stage three, yes, correct. MR CAMERON: I just want to make sure I am on the right plan. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7260 MR KENDERDINE: If I take as an example piling being the first on the block and I look at the number of nights that we are talking there which is 25 there are 14 pile pours that we are talking about, concrete pours where we fill the piles with concrete. 5 On staging drawing stage three if I look at s4 which is immediately adjacent to Grandstand Apartments there are two piles there and those pile pours would probably occur in reasonable proximity. They might be three days apart for example, possibly longer. 10 I then have to walk a crane between one set of piles and the next set of piles and in doing so where I cross a State Highway or a road I will need to do that at night so I have allowance in that time for a night time activity to be literally a crane either walking across the road which 15 would be a relatively short duration and something that we have done a number of times down State Highway 1 as part of the National War Memorial Park between ends of the project or being loaded onto a transporter to be shifted to another location. 20 Over the duration of that year if you like, 350 days, 14 of those would be early morning concrete pours and it would be our ideal, if you said starting between four and five in the morning and some would be activities such as just relocating plant. 25 MR CAMERON: From the Board’s perspective and importantly also the Grandstand Apartment’s residents perspective having regard to the information that we are looking at generally, the number of nights that they would be effected during stage three which is when the primary work would be occurring in relation to them would be a total of what? 30 [11.10 am] MR KENDERDINE: I guess it is a little bit difficult and I will explain why it is a little bit difficult. If you look on stage three you will see a pink 35 section between S2 and S3 which is the false work being put up across Cambridge Terrace so in my table I talk false work and I have got 12 nights there. The assumption currently that we are working through is that we will 40 have to lift the steel beams across Cambridge Terrace at night in the weekends when the power and the cables can be turned off, the trolley buses currently run more or less Monday to Friday to deal with the commuter traffic and diesel buses in the weekends so they do all of their repairs and maintenance on the network in the weekends. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7261 The least impact for them is for us to do that in the weekend and obviously lifting in steel beams over live high voltage cables it is not a long term activity. In this staging period which is about five months, at this stage five to six months, there would be two nights for the 5 Cambridge Terrace, there would be four nights of concrete pours. There might be one or two nights of the crane being relocated. MR CAMERON: Is that something that would occur throughout the night or is it something that would occur between the hours of eight and 10 and 10 five and seven or what is it? MR KENDERDINE: We tend to as again I talk to here in terms of the traffic relocation, a lot of that work happens after peak in the evenings and is normally done by 11 pm so shifting the crane is not a particularly long 15 time activity. I would be extremely surprised if it was longer than three or four hours. MR CAMERON: If you could just proceed with your analysis and then we will tidy up at the end? 20 MR KENDERDINE: Well I think that is probably the best example of the sort of staging and how these nights here relate to particular individuals. MR CAMERON: If we were to look at each of these stages and consider 25 Grandstand Apartments in the context of the number of occasions when they maybe disturbed at night treating that period as being eight till say seven, we could do that exercise could we for each stage? MR KENDERDINE: We could and one of the things that actually popped out 30 to us when we were looking at this is how you would and again we talked to the community about this is whether or not it is better for us to put activity nights on the same nights or not? MR CAMERON: Precisely. 35 MR KENDERDINE: Sometimes accumulative is less desirable than the sequential and sometimes it is the other way around. MR CAMERON: Now the same time in terms of this exchange, what I am 40 going to ask you to do Mr Kenderdine, you do not need to do it to a precise level of detail but to ensure the Board has a clear understanding of this, I would like you in the morning adjournment, we will bring a cup of tea to you, just calculate by stage in relation to the Grandstand Apartments the order of magnitude in terms of disturbance in terms of 45 the number of nights by stage and then I am going to ask you to tell the Board what the answer to that is please. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7262 MS JONES: Your Honour, would it be possible for Mr Kenderdine in doing that to compare it also to the calendar profile of when the work is? 5 CHAIRPERSON: That is the one with the bars? MS JONES: Yes, because if Mr Kenderdine is calculating that and looking at the picture it might be helpful for my questioning if he is able to relate that to what period over the year or how many days out of a month the 10 activities would be disruptive. Would that be possible? [11.15 am] CHAIRPERSON: Well, he can try. Yes, if he is able to do that. 15 MS JONES: Thank you, your Honour. MR KENDERDINE: I will endeavour to. At the level we are talking about a month to a month maybe. 20 CHAIRPERSON: The calendar is only an estimate of course. MS JONES: Yes, no, I appreciate that. 25 CHAIRPERSON: Somewhat indicative, yes. MS JONES: But just being able to look roughly at the clumping and how many per acre. 30 CHAIRPERSON: It is subject to change on a daily basis I understand like this court case has been. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, unfortunately. 35 MR CAMERON: If you could please just undertake that in a practical way, Mr Kenderdine and then I think the board will have a clearer understanding of exactly what we are talking about. And I think, Ms Jones, if you can assist here as well that would be really helpful, thank you. All right, now I want to turn to a different topic now. Sir, would 40 you like us to do that now? MR BAINES: Is this going to be different from construction? MR CAMERON: Yes, it is different to construction. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7263 MR BAINES: If we have got a question in relation to construction we could ask it. MR CAMERON: Yes, of course. 5 MR BAINES: Mr Kenderdine, you said yesterday and when you were talking us through the stages here, how as a result of your experience of the National War Memorial Park job that you had come to the conclusion that it was important to try and minimise the amount of changing 10 around, you know, to try and bloop (ph 1.58) your stages as much as possible so that people know what to expect. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 15 MR BAINES: And then there will be a change and then they get used to that configuration for a while. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 20 MR BAINES: Now, picking up on that particular point. I look through and the diagrams of which that is one and it seems to me to be very explicit on where traffic will go. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 25 MR BAINES: Right, now particularly in relation to Dufferin Street, Ellice Street, the southern of Kent and Cambridge Terrace, we know those are areas really important to pedestrian and cycling commuting. Lots of people are doing it and it is not clear to me what the corresponding 30 provisions are. Where do you expect people to be walking and cycling at these various stages and is that clearly set out somewhere? MR KENDERDINE: It is. 35 MR BAINES: Do you see what I am getting at? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I do. MR BAINES: It is clear where the traffic is going, I am not sure where the 40 pedestrians and cyclists are going, that is all. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so there is an appendix, it is part of my evidence- in-chief or my rebuttal. I think it is my rebuttal. 45 MR BAINES: Right. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7264 MR KENDERDINE: Let me just find that reference for you. It comes after the staging diagrams. It is Annexure D2 to my rebuttal and it looks like this. It is very similar to the staging drawings. 5 MR BAINES: Okay, yes. Thank you, I have got it. MR KENDERDINE: What I call BRB1427. MR BAINES: Yes, got it, okay. 10 MR KENDERDINE: And so, what we have attempted to show there is effectively the answer to your question. MR BAINES: Right. 15 MR KENDERDINE: And it comes to exactly that point, is that the movement of the pedestrian and cycle paths can be quite problematic. MR BAINES: Right. 20 [11.20 am] MR KENDERDINE: So, one of the reasons why we have gone to this major stage to complete the work in zone 4B is to enable us to get the lanes 25 established properly and then if you like on what is around the edge of zone 4B you have a temporary route. MR BAINES: A dotted blue line. 30 MR KENDERDINE: The dotted blue line is the, sorry, it is an unfortunate mix of graphics. MR BAINES: I see, the yellow line. 35 MR KENDERDINE: The yellow line, so that temporary route. So the intention was that we will form that with a concrete barrier on the roadside and that quite possibly a concrete barrier on the construction side with a dedicated pathway between the two which will be properly lit and surfaced for as long as possible. 40 MR BAINES: I am interested in the last comment, for as long as possible, the time said it when that will not be possible. Is that what you are saying? MR KENDERDINE: No, we are clear that the volume of traffic, the preferred 45 desire line is for numbers of students and pedestrians is either coming down out of Mount Victoria tunnel or into Mount Victoria tunnel and Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7265 then across from the schools effectively through and either up Ellice Street, along Hania Street or down Kent and Cambridge Terrace. MR BAINES: Yes. 5 MR KENDERDINE: So there will always be a route from there, from the corner of Patterson Street to Cambridge Terrace. MR BAINES: Right. 10 MR KENDERDINE: Of that we are very clear, what we are doing here is, when I say as long as possible it means we want to keep those well- formed ones and not shift them around. 15 MR BAINES: Right, and not shift them around. Okay, I understand. MR KENDERDINE: Because it is problematic and it come to your previous question about how the construction people perceive it versus how the public perceive it. And the construction people are used to working 20 around the temporary situation but the public are not. So, we are trying to make sure that this is well structured as long as possible. MR BAINES: Yes, okay. So you see in fact that throughout the duration of construction on that busy north eastern quadrant there will always be a 25 clear and safe pedestrian route. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR BAINES: Okay, well that is really useful to know. 30 MR KENDERDINE: So, we have been working with a CPTED advisor as to how best to do that. MR BAINES: Right. 35 MR KENDERDINE: And it is throwing up some interesting things that we might never have thought of by ourselves. MR BAINES: And looking at the northern gates of the Basin now which is 40 just to our left around the window here. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR BAINES: That is obviously another important conduit for close 45 pedestrians and cyclists. Does that remain open? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7266 MR KENDERDINE: That is probably the most challenging one in some respects because it will walk directly through the construction. MR BAINES: Of both the bridge? 5 MR KENDERDINE: Of both the bridge and Northern Gateway Building. MR BAINES: And the Northern Gateway Building. 10 MR KENDERDINE: So, that is why we have two options. The yellow one on the left hand side and the blue one on the right hand side. Now I have observed as I am sure you all have, the number of people that just walk straight out of the Basin Reserve, straight across the road. So, we are going to put a temporary pedestrian crossing with appropriate signage 15 in there. MR BAINES: Right. MR KENDERDINE: Particularly as we will be moving pedestrians further 20 over that way and so that will be the primary route for as long as possible. MR BAINES: Sure. So, what you are saying to us I think is that for the duration of the construction there will be a route somewhere out of this 25 northern end of the Basin. Whether it is to the left or to the right route, that there will be a route. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 30 MR BAINES: You will not be saying, “look, for the duration of construction you cyclists have actually got to go round Sussex Street and forget about going through”. MR KENDERDINE: No, definitely need to keep that open. 35 MR BAINES: Right, okay, thank you. MR KENDER: Because the risk is, and that we are very clear about this, is the risk is that people then force their way through and end up in the 40 wrong place. MR BAINES: Right, okay. MR KENDERDINE: So, we need to make sure that they are in the right place 45 because then they are safe. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7267 MR BAINES: Right. Yes, okay, no, thank you very much or that. It was very helpful, thank you. MR CAMERON: And just to follow up briefly on that point. The CPTED 5 advisor who has been assisting you on this point is Mr Stoks. MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: And the answers that you have provided Mr Baines are in 10 the light of the conversations you have been having with him and which continue on an ongoing basis. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, correct. 15 [11.25 am] MR CAMERON: We also have in the conditions DC23 and I am going to just hand it to you. 20 MR KENDERDINE: I think I recall the one. MR CAMERON: Which is prior to the submission of the construction. CHAIRPERSON: DC23? 25 MR CAMERON: DC23, the construction transport management plan for certification that proposed plan shall undergo an independent safety and traffic review and a CPTED review by suitably qualified persons and so on so DC23. 30 MR BAINES: Links into that, thank you. MR CAMERON: I think that closes it, sir. Does your Honour wish to take the morning adjournment? 35 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you are going onto a new topic now so we will take the morning adjournment now. ADJOURNED [11.26 am] 40 RESUMED [11.47 am] MR CAMERON: This is part of the weather vane with response to issues that have arisen (INDISTINCT 00.00.37) all the material that has been put. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7268 CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Do you want us to retire? Well, we will retire, otherwise it puts me under pressure that it will be too long, because we are - - - 5 MR CAMERON: It is very important (INDISTINCT 1.05). CHAIRPERSON: I know, it is dreadful, is it not? Yes, but that is two days. Oh, that is nice, we have got real water. 10 MR CAMERON: I was just curious as to what the (INDISTINCT 1.18) but you shouldn’t. CHAIRPERSON: No, well, the water for the last two days has been foul. You haven’t been drinking it? You don’t notice the difference? 15 MR CAMERON: (INDISTINCT 1.33) I drink instant coffee as well. ADJOURNED [11.49 am] 20 RESUMED [11.55 am] MR CAMERON: Now MR KENDERDINE, thank you very much for that. Have you been able to carry out that calculation by stage for us please? 25 MR KENDERDINE: I have or at least I have attempted to. MR CAMERON: Yes, can you walk us through that please? MR KENDERDINE: How best to do this? 30 MR CAMERON: I think go back to stage zero and go forward from there please? MR KENDERDINE: Okay. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Or can you do it in relation to the table? MR KENDERDINE: It will be a mix of the staging plans and the table I have just submitted is probably the best thing. I would also suggest that in 40 relation to the effects on the Grandstand Apartment we have had to make an assumption and the assumption is that there is a 100 metre radius from the Grandstand Apartments. MR CAMERON: Right. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7269 MR KENDERDINE: The numbers I will talk to you now do not total to the numbers in each activity if that makes sense. MR CAMERON: That makes perfect sense, thank you. 5 MR KENDERDINE: It is totally arbitrary unfortunately but we have had to make an assessment somehow of the influence on the Grandstand Apartments. 10 MR BAINES: Let me understand what you are saying, what you are saying is if that you are thinking of it from the perspective of the Grandstand Apartments you are saying we are thinking about activities that will occur within 100 metres of there and if they occur outside of that then we are saying we are not taking that into account? 15 MR KENDERDINE: In these numbers. MR BAINES: In these numbers? 20 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR BAINES: That is fine, okay. MR CAMERON: They are otherwise taken into account in these ones? 25 MR BAINES: Yes, the numbers in the table are the total, the global number. MR CAMERON: But not broken down by stage. 30 MR BAINES: I understand. MR CAMERON: I think that makes sense although I have not talked to MR KENDERDINE specifically about that. 35 MR KENDERDINE: In stage zero which is these two stages here, so these two slides, the one you have in front of you and the following one. This one and this one, we are talking two nights of service relocations and two nights of traffic relocations. 40 MR CAMERON: Just pause there, I am sorry just to make this simpler I think it may be helpful if MR KENDERDINE were to just have Ms Girling photocopy the pages that he is reading from and we distribute those and that might make it a lot quicker and then we can produce those pages. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7270 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we probably will not need to go through them in detail as he tells us how the tables are made out otherwise we will be here all afternoon. 5 MR CAMERON: I agree and I am just trying to find a way through it that is efficient. MS GIRLING: Would you like copies? 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please. MR CAMERON: Yes, please. MS JONES: Your Honour, would it be also possible for Mr Kenderdine to 15 relate the days that he is talking about to what time during the period, but to which months from in relation to this table so we have got an idea of the impact at each stage in going through. CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly what he has done. 20 MS JONES: I did not know which month. MR KENDERDINE: The stage drawings have months on them. 25 MS JONES: Well if you could just say them out loud. CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to go through the whole table otherwise we will be here all day and we want to finish this hearing next week. 30 MS JONES: I appreciate that, your Honour. CHAIRPERSON: If you can just explain to us how the - - - [12.00 pm] 35 MR KENDERDINE: And my apologies had I known it was to be distributed we might have put a little bit more effort into presentation. CHAIRPERSON: That is all right. 40 MR KENDERDINE: The way we have addressed this is going through the staging diagrams and relating the activity in the stage to the nights of the activity so again if I may be so bold to take the piling as the example there is no piling in stage zero which is from July to 45 September in our original estimation. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7271 In stage one there will be 15 nights or early mornings that is September 14 to February 15 as per the stage one drawing and that we see six plus three so that is six concrete pours plus three moving for the piling activity numbers so out of the 15 in total nine of those will be within 5 100 metres of the Grandstand. The blue is within 100 metres of the Grandstand and the red is total and I apologise in advance if any of the numbers do not quite add through because it was a bit of a rush, but if you go through that stage one then 10 you have overall 15 of those nights occurring in that stage one of which nine would occur within 100 metres of the Grandstand. There is no nights for false work, there is no nights for the bridge deck, there is 20 nights or late evenings or early mornings from service 15 relocations and there is, sorry 25 in total, 20 within 100 metres and for the traffic relocations there would be five in total and five of those would be within 100 metres of the Grandstand? MR CAMERON: Now if we look for example at column two which is stage 20 one can those activities occur for example on the service relocations and the piling activities can they occur on the same night? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, they could. 25 MR CAMERON: You cannot conclude from this table necessarily that these are necessarily separate nights? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, and in fact the one or two of the traffic relocation nights that are in stage one would be associated with the 30 piling activity. There is a correlation between those two. MR CAMERON: Without getting into this matter to the point of precision, or to a point of precision to what, I will ask you this question, to what extent can you manage or can you avoid, to what extent sorry can you 35 manage activities so that those that are occurring at night will occur on the same night as opposed to having them having to occur on different nights, generally speaking? MR KENDERDINE: Generally speaking the comment back which may or 40 may not be the one is that we would actually work that through with all the stakeholders so we have the ability to try and match them up if that works better for people or if one is a late activity and the other is an early activity there maybe desire that you have the maximum quiet time so that you do not join them up or it may be as some people explained 45 to us they would much rather have an intense period so if we could do it all within five nights they would rather have five nights in a row and Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7272 look at various. I am not sure if that helps but that is how we would approach it. MR CAMERON: That helps. 5 MR BAINES: Is it fair comment to say that if you were for example starting a project and you were meeting with your reference group for the first time, this would be really useful information to give to them would it not? This from your construction point of view says this is our need for 10 night time work, we know night time work is potentially problematic for you, but here is the extent of it and then you start negotiating around whether you want to have it altogether or spread it out or whatever? 15 [12.05 pm] MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and to be fair to, for instance, the Tasman Gardens because of the pace of the project in the National War Memorial Park we have not been able to do this in any structured way months in 20 advance because it has been a little bit more of a design one day build the next day approach. MR McMAHON: Just on that matter, Mr Cameron, before we proceed, Mr Kenderdine what is going to the forum for making these decisions of 25 grouping instruction nights together or having them separated, is it going to be the communications and stakeholders liaison reference group or is it going to be the construction environmental management plan or is it going to be the noise and vibration management plan or some combination of those? 30 MR KENDERDINE: I think the combination, the noise and vibration plan will tend to talk about specifics, monitoring, management, the sequencing I see much more coming out of the community reference group as a way of tabling the information and people being aware of 35 the different drivers in that forum. MR McMAHON: It maybe that that linkage needs to be made more explicit than it is at the moment. 40 MR CAMERON: I agree, I think it is a really good idea and lastly and also I think to assist and picking up on Mr Baines point about information, you provided information on the basis of the number of nights how many of these occasions without again being so precise as to be pedantic but in terms of provision of information would you estimate to 45 be work that would occur throughout the night or work that would only Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7273 occur say in the early hours of the morning or alternatively up until say between seven and 10 at night? MR KENDERDINE: It is extremely rare that we work completely though the 5 night, extremely rare and in fact I can only account for one occasion when we have worked continuously through the night and that was when we were opening this temporary road and we were all still there line marking and things at 4 am and we had started early the previous morning. 10 MR CAMERON: You were getting the morning peak? MR KENDERDINE: We were getting off the road before, we had to be open before the traffic arrived basically. 15 MR CAMERON: So the Board can understand then what we are talking about and when you were talking about night work what hours are we actually talking about when that work will physically occur having regard to the various types of work that need to be undertaken 20 MR KENDERDINE: I think I go to a little bit of this in the descriptions of the activities of each activity so very simply most of the piling noise will be an early morning concrete pour activity. 25 MR CAMERON: That starts generally at about 4.00 am does it not? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, the false work may be an activity that is ongoing for quite a long period because once you have got a 25 metre long steel beam up in the air held by two cranes, you need to make sure it has a 30 landing before the traffic arrives. The bridge deck is predominantly early morning concrete pours, the service relocations would tend to be a shift so it would start later in the evening and go through to I am thinking at the latest midnight to 2 am and traffic relocations tend to be, the asphalting I guess can go through to later but it tends to start in the 35 evening and go forward rather than arrive first thing in the morning. [12.10 pm] MR CAMERON: Okay, and just so for completeness, is it possible within 40 your management process to accommodate a requirement that all work other than – sorry. Work related to the service relocation and traffic relocation, other than in exceptional circumstances for example, be completed by 11pm? Is that possible or not possible? 45 MR KENDERDINE: I am sorry, I am not sure I quite understand. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7274 MR CAMERON: What I am trying to get at, Mr Kenderdine, to cut to the chase is, is it possible to accommodate people’s sleeping hours and manage the work to their sleeping hours, assuming they range from 11 say, until 6, other than for concrete pours, or not? 5 MR KENDERDINE: In the black-and-white case, not. Which comes to the whole process, so we would endeavour to, but again, if that means that I have got to start at 6am and it takes all the way through until 11pm, versus starting at 5am and finishing at 2 in the afternoon because of the 10 different productivity rate, I am reasonably certain which one people would go for. MR CAMERON: You are right, so you are saying that you can work to that in a general context, as an aspiration, but would have to manage to the 15 particular circumstances through the process that you have described to us earlier, is that what you are endeavouring to communicate? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. 20 MR CAMERON: All right, thank you, I think I have taken us through that in as much detail as I can. I am going to go to the next topic, and unless anybody has – Sorry, sir, I was going to. CHAIRPERON: No, you move on. 25 MR CAMERON: Thank you. Now, there has been considerable discussion in the course of this hearing, Mr Kenderdine, which you are aware of, regarding the width of the shared path. 30 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR CAMERON: Can you please, from a construction perspective, advise the board and by reference to the material that you have – the visual material that you have in terms of cross-sections, walk us through 35 options in relation to width which may be able to slightly improve upon the outcome that has been discussed in terms of 3 metres, please, and how that would be done. MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. As I have mentioned, I am pretty sure it is in 40 my rebuttal as well as in my evidence in chief, there is a design development process which then requires certification through a number of channels. But obviously, one of the important ones is the urban design and landscape plan sign-off process. Adjacent to that is this exact question of the width of the pedestrian bridge and cycleway. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7275 MR CAMERON: While you are getting that up, I produce the document that was circulated as Kenderdine 02. EXHIBIT KENDERDINE.2 5 MR CAMERON: Because otherwise the hearing manager will tell me off. MR KENDERDINE: Right, so annexure E cross-section shows, obviously, the shared cycleway-pedestrian to the left of the main bridge. And then, 10 this is only in my power point presentation, it is not intended as an annexure, merely an example of the type of design development that we do. So mindful of this discussion around the width of the pedestrian shared cycleway pathway, the question to the urban design and structural people was how can be balance some of these 15 along the pedestrian footbridge, and in fact, to the structural engineer, can we make it stand up, which is obviously part of this discussion. [12.15 pm] 20 So in this particular drawing, with a 200 millimetre increase in the overall width of the footbridge, or the attachment to the side of the superstructure, and the relocation of the exact position of the handrail, and a subtle change in the design of that, gives us 3.4 metres to the inside of the light poles, leaving your 400 millimetre light gap on one 25 side as well. Clearly, and John Hardwick-Smith has talked at some length over the crisp – I think he described it as the crisp edge – along the Kent and Cambridge view shaft, if that is the right word, being that 400 mil concrete edge, so bringing the handrail down over the edge is not something that I think would be – Well, as we have heard today, it 30 would be a good thing. So this is just a minor tweak trying to endeavour to increase that width. What I can say is that if we look at a 5 metre wide-type activity, we start to have relatively significant structural issues, particularly with the 35 pedestrian footbridge where it comes free of the main structure. That would be significant increases in piling and beam depth, which may have a significantly adverse effect on other aspects as well as the land available at the landing point which is adjacent to St Joseph’s church. 40 MR COLLINS: Can I just ask a question on that point? That suggestion of the handrail I put to Mr Hardwick-Smith and he was not keen about it, because he quite liked the rhythm of the struts on the outside. MR KENDERDINE: Right. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7276 MR COLLINS: It occurred to me that with a substantial concrete edge, it would not be hard to have the handrail from that. But he was not keen. So you have discussed it with him and this is now a possibility that he accepts? 5 MR KENDERDINE: So this still sits on top, this does not come down the face. MR COLLINS: Yes, but it is further across. You have moved it. 10 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: And you have deleted the struts on the outside. 15 MR KENDERDINE: It would be fair to say it was a very brief conversation and he was going away to, sort of, think about some of the issues. But I guess it is that tweaking, for want of a better word, of this process that we now go through. And hence the structure of the urban design plan certification, both in the principle and the zone ones, which allows 20 these issues to be worked through in detail. MR COLLINS: Yes, he also mentioned the concern about if the bridge was substantially wider, requiring a, I think he said, ‘beefier’ support underneath, which would undermine his intention of the fine line. 25 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, absolutely. MR COLLINS: So that is the point you are making? 30 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, and you know, if it gets – It does not need to get much wider, in fact, I would suggest not much wider at all from what is on the drawing in front of you, before the light gap becomes untenable because of the large cantilevered structure, or major structure underneath, which would be unfortunate from my architectural training 35 point of view. MR COLLINS: Thank you. MR CAMERON: Yes, so we – Would it be fair to say that in listening to the 40 evidence and in the discussions that are occurring, of which you have been a part, the evidence that you are now giving on this point is intended to convey the degree of flexibility available within the existing design parameters? 45 MR KENDERINE: Yes, correct. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7277 MR CAMERON: Now, just for completeness on this point, and so that there is no room for misunderstanding, can that width be achieved as a constant through the entire length of the shared path or not? And can you just walk us through the sections please, just so the Board again is 5 very clear about the limitations of this to the extent that they apply. [12.20 pm] MR KENDERDINE: To be fair, I have not done it in this sort of level all the 10 way through, but there are rapidly constraints. So at either end where we have the abutments, say for instance, on the western end, you have an abutment with a main stair access coming up to the crèche, there in front of the crèche. 15 So that to widen the footpath at that point would obviously have an impact on that stair and the consequence language and room for the zig-zag path that goes up there. So I think we could fit in the 200 mils without too much exercise, but again, you go much beyond that and you start having consequential flow-on effects. 20 Similarly, at the other end, the suspended pedestrian footbridge, that would be okay, we could do that. But once we land on the footpath, we need to be very mindful of the width at that point because of the proximity of St Joseph’s car park, and the existing geometric alignment 25 of the road. Noting that, going on from there, and if I may be so bold, given I used to live in Wellington Road and ride my own bicycle through Mount Victoria tunnel quite regularly and down that road, the footpath shrinks 30 quite significantly thereafter. MR CAMERON: And therefore in the mid-section of the bridge which I am, if we can just get up a picture of the structure, let us say across the face of Kent, Cambridge Terrace to the point where it comes into the north- 35 eastern quadrant, is it possible to achieve this slight increase of width in the manner that you have discussed throughout that length? MR KENDERDINE: I believe so, yes. 40 MR CAMERON: All right. And to what extent then can you achieve it beyond that as you progress towards St Joseph’s and then land? MR KENDERDINE: We would be good, I guess, it would be able to be achieved through to the abutment. Once you land on the abutment 45 heading down into the existing ground level, it would start to be constrained. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7278 MR CAMERON: Thank you. All right. MR COLLINS: Sorry, what was the width achieved again? By moving the 5 rail across you achieve an extra? MR CAMERON: An additional 400. MR COLLINS: 400. 10 CHAIRPERSON: 400 centimetres. MR COLLINS: Good. Thank you. 15 MR CAMERON: An additional 400. - - -. MR CAMERON: - - - So that would give a total width of 3.8 - - - MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 20 MR CAMERON: - - - and having regard to light poles an unconstrained width of 3.4, but with that additional 400 between the light poles being available throughout the length. So it then becomes quite definitional; is that 3.8 shared path, is it a 3.4, or what is it? That is the point So we 25 are really talking about here a 3.8, but with the constraints that have been carefully identified. CHAIRPERSON: And it comes down to 3.4 with the landing? 30 MR CAMERON: No, sir. It would come down to three. CHAIRPERSON: To three? MR CAMERON: It would come down to the three at the landings at either 35 end. MR KENDERDINE: Where you would land on the footpaths, yes. MR CAMERON: Yes. 40 MR McMAHON: So is that comparable to the Queen’s Wharf situation outside Shed Five where the bollards provide a constraint? I think that was an example that was used in the last day or two. I think the distance between the bollards and the wall of Shed five was three 45 metres. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7279 MR CAMERON: Yes. MR McMAHON: But there is obviously a further dimension available in between the bollards? 5 MR CAMERON: Yes, I think that would be a fair comparison although I have not gone and done that exercise myself or asked any witness to do so, Mr McMahon, but on that example, assuming it to be correct, yes. 10 [12.25 pm] MR McMAHON: Yes, Mr Kenderdine can you just remind you of, I think you said it earlier but I did not record it, the distance between the light 15 standards? MR KENDERDINE: I thought someone might ask me that. I am not sure, sorry. 20 MR McMAHON: Mr Hardwick-Smith might have mentioned it. MR COLLINS: It is not that frequent because they are tall, eight metres. CHAIRPERSON: It is on the plan. 25 MR MCMAHON: It is all right. MR CAMERON: I just want to make sure this is absolutely right, because I think that we may come at cross purposes, Mr Kenderdine so at the 30 point, can we just back up here and just make sure we have got this absolutely right? So, if we start at the point where the bridge, sorry, can we start then at the point where the shared path comes out of the National War Memorial Park? 35 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR CAMERON: At the point it goes into the park, it will need to be narrowed to 3 metres or thereabouts, perhaps 3.2? 40 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: And then from that point through to the point where the shared path unclips from the main bridge, that point there?- 45 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7280 MR CAMERON: We can achieve a total width of 3.8 as we have just described it? MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 5 MR CAMERON: But from that point through to the abutment. MR KENDERDINE: It is about where the pointer is about there. 10 MR CAMERON: It will be a total width there of 3.4, but without light poles being an obstruction? MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 15 MR CAMERON: That was the complication. So I do not think that leaves any room for misunderstanding. And I think just to complete that exercise and from the point of the abutment which is directly opposite St Joseph’s Church to the point where the shared path will then land, you will have to narrow again to around three metres? 20 MR KENDERDINE: I believe so, yes. Obviously, we work through that on detail. MR CAMERON: Right. And if we have a look at sheet number 5A09, and I 25 am not going to ask the Board to do that, but just for your own benefit by way of cross-referencing, that details the lighting strategy so that we can see there the difference between the position that applies across the bridge at various points. 30 MR BAINES: Is that 5A01? MR CAMERON: 09. MR BAINES: 09, sorry. I will keep that one. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Is that drawn to scale? MR CAMERON: Yes. 40 CHAIRPERSON: Well, the witness can tell us the distance. Have we got a scale ruler? MR KENDERDINE: We can make one. 45 MR CAMERON: No, I have not got one with me, sir. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7281 CHAIRPERSON: Well, we will do a. MR KENDERDINE: It is probably on the drawing on the bottom. 5 MR CAMERON: It is on the drawing, the scale. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. MR BAINES: There you are. We can do that. 10 MR CAMERON: Do you want to do that? MR COLLINS: You are wanting the light poles distances? 15 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the distances. MR COLLINS: Well I am sure it is mentioned somewhere. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it will be on there. 20 MR CAMERON: It is in Mr Hardwick-Smith’s evidence. CHAIRPERSON: I am sure it is. 25 MR CAMERON: I am sorry Mr Kenderdine, you do it and I will. Distance between the light poles? MR KENDERDINE: It is in the order of 25 metres. 30 MR CAMERON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR CAMERON: I think that covers all aspects of dimensions. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. MR CAMERON: And there is one further point for completeness that before the shared path can be, I am sorry I will rephrase that. That in the 40 course of the detailed design process relevant to the shared path, a final safety audit is carried out in the ordinary course? MR KENDERDINE: Correct. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7282 [12.30 pm] MR CAMERON: Thank you. I have two further topics. The building under the bridge, there has been some discussion regarding the desirability of 5 limiting the height of that building for the reasons that the Board will be familiar with. What is your view about that? MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess the building itself – the way it is drawn at the moment is with high edge of the roof effectively on the road side 10 and slipping down and with some option to develop the drainage into the green screen. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not sure what you are talking about. I did not know there was any suggestion by anyone that height would be less? 15 MR CAMERON: Of the building under the bridge? CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the building under the bridge. 20 MR CAMERON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I was thinking of the Northern Gateway Building. MR McMAHON: Who suggested that? 25 MR CAMERON: I thought Ms Ralph had been suggest - - - CHAIRPERSON: Ralph? 30 MR CAMERON: - - - Yes – had been suggesting that if it be limited by something 0.4 of a metre, that that would reduce the ability of that building to obscure light. So I just want to establish - - - MR McMAHON: Oh, so it is just - - - 35 MR CAMERON: - - - the constructability of that in the context of that building, as a matter of detailed designs. - - - CHAIRPERSON: Do you see that? 40 MR McMAHON: Yes. MR CAMERON: - - - That is the context of the question. 45 MR McMAHON: She is the owner of apartment one. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7283 MR...... : Yes, that is right. MR...... : Yes. Sorry. 5 MR CAMERON: I am sorry, sir, I am trying to get through to the end of this, too, but I am just wanting to make sure that from a – so, you are familiar with that issue? MR KENDERDINE: I am now. 10 MR CAMERON: All right. Is that an issue - - - CHAIRPERSON: So am I. 15 MR CAMERON: - - - that you would like to comment on, or not? MR KENDERDINE: Well, my understanding of the building is that a small reduction in the roof heights immediately adjacent to the Grandstand Apartments would not be a fundamental problem. 20 MR CAMERON: Yes. Good, thank you. No, I am going to leave the rest of it, sir. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 25 MR CAMERON: Thank you for that. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Jones? You have been very patient sitting there since lunch time yesterday, so. 30 MS JONES: Thank you, your Honour, Board, Mr Kenderdine. Now, please, I will just ask in advance, there may be a few moments where I have to look through my notes, because Mr Cameron and Mr Kenderdine have covered a number of areas that I was going to have questions of, but 35 they have also raised some other matters. So it may take me a moment or two to just get those refocused. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, you just take your time. 40 MS JONES: Thank you very much. Now I will mainly be referring to Mr Kenderdine’s supplementary evidence, the recent summary, because I think that is easier to go through as being more up to date than some of the other material, but I also have a few questions in relation to management with the conditions and some of the approaches. So I am 45 just letting you know so that we have got those documents to hand. And I apologise in advance, some of my questions also will probably Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7284 be a little bit jumping around because of coming up immediately after Mr Cameron. Okay. [12.35 pm] 20 MR KENDERDINE: There are two things: one, I think, I did not necessarily concur with the normal sleeping patterns. I was talking merely about hours of operation. We are fully mindful of the fact that some people work during the night and sleep during the day, which makes life more 25 challenging from a constructor’s point of view and that there is a wide range of people and with different lifestyles living in the environs of the project. We have lengthy discussions with Tasman Gardens for instance about 30 the hazard created by the students – well, they were referred to as students, they may not be students – walking home at 4 am in the morning, trying to graffiti things and climb through our security fences. MS JONES: Okay. Now, in relation to the community reference group, which 35 I have a few questions about, there are conditions that actually sort of suggest particular people be represented on that community reference group. Do you know the condition that I am referring to? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I do. 40 MS JONES: I can find condition D(6). MR KENDERDINE: I think, in general, I understand what you are referring to. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7285 MS JONES: Now, you mentioned in your discussion of Tasman Gardens that there were representatives from the Body Corporate, but in some cases, they were tenants who did not feel that their concerns were necessarily always captured or communications done as well as they might be. And 5 I see from the notes that there is a suggestion that the community reference group be wider rather than smaller to enable more viewpoints to be able to be captured at that stage and that that has not been uniformly, you know, accepted. Do you have a view yourself on how much diversity of viewpoints or otherwise should be in that community 10 reference group? MR KENDERDINE: I think the reference group, as it is currently structured, has quite a wide range of viewpoints. From a sheer logistics point of view, opening it to all and sundry, at one extreme, means it is 15 unmanageable. I have tried to run public forums with 500 people and it just does not work because you cannot get the granularity of the issues of the people immediately affected and so it gets lots in the translation. I think my view is that the list that is mentioned in the current condition, as I understand it, is a fair representation of the people that 20 will be affected by the works and impacted upon the works, and be able to work with us to make sure we are meeting those wider environments. What we do not do is say that no one can talk to us. So while the 25 community reference group is formal and structured insomuch as we will aim to have regular meetings and electronic access to information, the informal activity that occurs around people coming in or talking to our staff on the site or other things will carry on. So if people are interested, the door is never shut. 30 MS JONES: When you refer to interested or affected parties, is that matching the previous description of that immediate geographic area that is bounded by Hania Street towards the bottom of Ellice Street, numbers sort of below 41 and the smaller area there, is that is what is seen as 35 affected parties? MR KENDERDINE: I think, I mean, we are getting into the sort of evidential exercise of some of the noise, social and the conditions, which is kind of outside my direct area of expertise. I guess if we get approached by 40 people that have concerns, we will listen to them and try to figure it out and that does not matter where they come from, we have got to hear their issue, because sometimes there is an oddity about a process that creates some effect. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7286 [12.40 pm] It is not the current project we are on, but as an example, the previous project I was on, vibration, we were compacting road material at a 5 certain location, there were houses in very close proximity to that activity. We were monitoring four rows of houses back, and all four rows of houses were okay, and the sixth row of house came and said that they were feeling affected. Now the strict science, decay of vibration, said that that should not happen. But when we monitored, 10 there it was. So then we changed the vibration activity. So, you know, if I think I understand the questioning is, we do not shut our minds to the extent of the impact, but we are clear around the efficacy and efficiency of the community reference group around the 15 day-to-day administration of a construction project of this size. What is hard with community reference groups is if there is a continual churn of people within it and that at every meeting you are re-litigating or reopening discussion that people that come through the journey as Mr Baines spoke of, about that education of people that are not used to a 20 big construction site. So one of the reasons, as I understand it, around the discreeter nature of the community reference group, if that is part of your question, is that there is that built-up body of knowledge of people that are going through the process and understanding of what the conversations are. 25 MS JONES: I hear what you are saying, but on the other side, where you have people as representatives of groups, say, for example the Newtown’s Residents Association, Wellington East Girls’ College, Save the Basin campaign or others, who have already shown by their submissions and 30 participation in this process that they have a greater than the public interest in the process, would you not actually see that there may be advantages to the process in having those people given a seat within the reference group so that the issues would be canvased together, almost like in contemporaneous situations, rather than individually, 35 continually raising issues separately, that may be the case if that is not able to be considered within the reference group? MR KENDERDINE: I think we are probably getting to a degree of hypothesis that I am not quite comfortable in because I do not know. I have not sat 40 through that submissions of those groups. I am not aware. MS JONES: Well just in a general context, is it better to be managing concerns in a group-focussed where everyone can be talking on issues and getting agreement, and even if there is a change in who the 45 representative is, they are engaging with their own group, or is it better to be having lots of individual concerns being raised and community Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7287 concerns, perhaps, because of not having that information? You know, is it not sort of, arguably better for the reference group to be a bit larger, even if not everyone is going to turn up, than to have lots of individual concerns that people feel they are not involved with? 5 MR KENDERDINE: I think the – My understanding of the question is it is a bit black-and-white, and the situation is never quite that black-and- white. So if we take the Newtown Residents Association, and they have made a submission, then we will be approaching them about their 10 concerns with the project and seeing what they are. So we will have, as part of our process of establishing, what are the concerns that most concern them. And they tend to be specific around certain issues. So I am not actually sure exactly where Newtown starts in terms of a boundary, but my image of Newtown in terms of Constable Street and 15 the main roads out in front of the hospital for instance, is obviously a long way from any noise and vibration. But for instance, the traffic flow through here is critical so that we will be talking to, and may have a separate group, that just literally talks about flow through and around the Basin, which they might be invited to if that is their primary 20 concern. So I guess there is the way in which we deal with each of the issues and there is the way in which, again, the day-to-day life of the project, which is a little bit different. [12.45 pm] 25 Because there is the detail that we get into when we are talking six months into the project about the shifting of a particular footpath or a particular light pole, unfortunately, when you have a much wider catchment it becomes untenable again. It becomes dysfunctional. So I 30 am not sure that - - - MS JONES: Is that not – Whether it becomes functional or un-functional, is that not a question of how the reference group operates? I mean, in my experience from local government, sort of, functions and any good 35 government, sort of, you know, body in a way, decision-making processes and discussion actually can reach a point or say, ‘Okay this is what the discussion – These are the facts, this is where we are reaching an agreement on it.’ Saying that it needs to be dragged out, I think, it makes assumptions about how that decision-making and 40 recommendation process is handled. MR KENDERDINE: Again, I am not saying that that will not happen, in the community reference group. So I fully agree with you. That reference group has to be able to bring in the differing points of view, and have a 45 structure, and a decision-making process around it. What I am saying is Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7288 that I struggle with widening that and start to include more groups than are currently there, because it just makes that much more challenging. MS JONES: In terms of the groups that are currently there, which I think are 5 listed in the conditions, which is document 11, Basin Bridge project conditions, following planning conferencing, which I am not as familiar as some people may be, because of course, this has only recently come through. Now, I think it was section six, was it, or seven? If we could just flick to that. And of course, in some cases, 10 whether there has been an agreement reached with a body that has perhaps indicated lesser concerns, I do not know if Regional Wine and Spirits would still wish to represented within that community reference group. They may still be, and I am happy for that to be the case. 15 Currently, we have got Mt Victoria Residents Association, Mt Cook Resident of Grandstand apartments, those lower Ellice Street residents, businesses. We do not have any representatives for pedestrian groups or cyclist groups, nor is there representation from some of the other major submitters to the process, who are indicating that they do have, 20 you know, quite strong concerns, that would perhaps, again, be managed of being able to have that opportunity to discuss things and have those concerns eased through that reference group process. Because that is the process that you have talked about, that lack of information and lack of ability to have your voice heard is one of the 25 reasons why people get concerned. I mean, is that not what you have been saying in some of your other submission material? That the actual ability to have open communications and community voices and dispel misinformation – is that not part of the approach that you are saying that you are taking through these other engagements? 30 MR KENDERDINE: I would endorse the fact that good communication flows assist with people’s understandings. There is absolutely no doubt about that. I guess, looking at this particular version, clearly there is some debate amongst planners who are far more familiar with the structure of 35 these groups than I. I mean, I have been involved in the formation and running of five community reference groups of various nature, including some for very large prison projects, and that, as a neighbour, trust me, creates a little bit of tension. The point here is that there are design issues to be worked out, for instance, if I just look at this quick 40 list, and clearly the architecture centre is involved and has had strong representation at this hearing. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7289 [12.50 pm] So, given I am an architect and a large number of friends who are associated with it, there is no doubt that we will be having a 5 conversation with them specifically about the nature of further engagement if the board gives approval to the project. I mean there are specific requirements in these conditions about who gets involved in which component of which work but again as I say it does not necessarily close the door. 10 However, the operational nature of the Community Reference Group means that the ‘the locals’ in inverted commas are the critically affected parties and making this much wider removes that. It actually removes from a construction point of view, we are moving here from a 15 debate about the general delivery, you know, the general concept of the project into the specifics. And it is that phase change where we need to have those people that we are going to be dealing with feeling really clear about their engagement and not the reverse often happens which is “I am right next door to this, why is this person who is a kilometre 20 away involved? You know, I do not want to hear about their problems”. And so there is this tension, so we need to manage that and my feeling is that this is doing that. It is providing that local focus and that there are other forums with which we will carry out other conversations. 25 MS JONES: I am not sure you and I agree on the definition of local in this circumstance. For example, in your discussion of considering the issues that were raised by noise, I raised personally my concerns over noise but my name and my submission was not included in the list of those 30 issues that you considered. So I am just sort of giving that as an example that your interpretation of local does seem to be a lot more narrow than some of the submitters to this process. And we are certainly not talking about 500 people 35 concerned but we are talking about a small but very concerned sort of grouping who feel that they are being left out and again, I ask what would be the harm in enabling those groups of people, submitters to this process, to have a voice within the Community Reference Group. 40 MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess I take the advice of the likes of the planners that have been involved in terms of the structure of the Community Reference Group. On that I think - I have pointed out my concerns about a group that is too big and I believe this represents good people. I mean, a reasonably cross section of the community to come 45 forward. I mean, there is always this other people being able to be Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7290 included and when we have those conversations we can help facilitate that inclusion or exclusion. MS JONES: Okay. Now, DC7 of the conditions provides for a register of 5 feedback and complaints. You are familiar with that section? “But, during the construction work the authority will maintain a register of feedback”. MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 10 MS JONES: I did not see a similar register for interested parties for updates. In light of good communications, could there be a register of interested parties to enable regular updates on such as changes to work times and the like? 15 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, there could be. I guess by practice we do that. MS JONES: So, that could be by an open sign on process that would be - - - 20 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes. MS JONES: - - - made known to anyone sort of through this? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, we produce an update, we aim fortnightly but 25 pressures must sometimes we do not quite there on the current project. [12.55 pm] MS JONES: I have after a number of repeated requests finally got one of 30 those. I found the detail quite lacking in terms of the timing. I am sort of, you know, asking whether it is possible to have more precise updates like, you know, “next week we will be doing X numbers of work”, you know, but making it available. The type of information that might go to the neighbours immediately there but making it more 35 widely available for people who have registered a strong interest. MR KENDERDINE: I think, if I can be so bold, yes, we would do that and I guess this is the challenge of any construction project. For instance, the crèche shifting that has just taken place. Started rolling at roughly 1 40 o’clock on Monday and was going very well and then stopped. It was supposed to carry on the next morning first thing but did not because one of the, what we call flapjacks, that actually raise about 10 millimetres and make that process work, burst, split. 45 So the challenge for us is that that happens all the time, in many ways. So, those little changes means that we will say in an ideal world we Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7291 will be pouring concrete in the next four weeks on these days and then the concrete plant will tell us that they are shutting down for maintenance on two of them. So, we will either have to bring one forward or put one back and that process unfortunately is constant. 5 MS JONES: Yes, but at the same time perhaps comparing it say, for the Chorus work that recently happened in Mount Victoria. Where in my street when the work was happening there was the advanced notice that it was happening, there was a contact to say if you need more 10 information. So, when getting more information and the proposal was to start at 8am and I raised objections to that and so we negotiated a start time of 9.30 and I got the phone number of the person and that was a negotiated process. 15 And it did not always fall to that and there were two subcontractors doing work at different times but there was enough information that it was not the same level of anxiety that my friends in Vivian Street encountered when at 11 o’clock at night with no advanced notice overnight the road was dug up and continued till 4am. And that was 20 happening, as I say, with no advanced notice. So, is it possible for there to be advanced notice given, not of definites but we are planning to do these activities over this timeframe and there may - - - MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 25 MR JONES: - - - be differences. MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 30 MR JONES: Because is that is the, you know, - - - MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR JONES: - - - advanced notice is the issue. 35 MR KENDERDINE: Yes and I think as I mentioned in a question again from Mr Baines about our learnings, you know, that is one of the things we have taken out from the inner city bypass work is the saturation of information and different communication channels that we were 40 required to do, that we really need to do to get people aware of what is going on. So in one case despite putting a flyer through their front door of a shop seven days in a row, there was no recognition that we had made any effort to communication with them. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7292 So, some people you actually need to go and front up and say this is what we think we are going to do. Others, they say, well, we never picked it up because it is junk mail. Please send it to this email address. 5 MS JONES: So, is there a communications plan being developed to in a way seek out a register of, these people need to be contacted by email, these people by phone, these by another thing and have that as an advanced planning tool. So that it is not a question of sending a piece of paper to a box that is never cleared as opposed to a person who might have a 10 hearing impairment and prefer to get texts or emails or you know. MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes, so there is a Communications Management Plan as part of the Suite Estate. 15 MS JONES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: I think that may not be the exact technical title. MS JONES: So again, how widely is that and can it be a sign on, like, having 20 a template, so let us say on a website or something so that it is not just the immediate sort of houses but all those we have indicated. MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 25 CHAIRPERSON: There is a clause for the DC5 which requires a stakeholder liaison person to be appointed. So you merely have to contact that person and say I want advanced notice sent to my email address which is such and such. 30 MS JONES: I agree, if the identity and contact details of that person are known to the people who need to find it because it is that link up. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it has to be appointed and has to be publicised. So, a lot of these things can be done, they do not need conditions 35 because that is what the person is there for, to handle those sort of things. [1.00 pm] 40 MS JONES: Well, certainly, having heard the discussion, I am fully of an agreement that overly prescriptive conditions can do more harm than good, but that having drafted general legislation myself I sort of see no harm in having a provision to a general approach being part of the condition taken about recognising, sort of, the (INDISTINCT 45 00.00.40) Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7293 CHAIRPERSON: If you wish any condition to be changed, you give us some wording. We are not going to draft wording, because it is not our job. MS JONES: No, I appreciate that. And as I said, those people who have asked 5 for there to be more consideration of pedestrians - - - CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MS JONES: - - - and cyclists within the group been sort of – I hear the 10 concerns but I am not the cyclist, so I am not sort of saying what it is, but just notifying endorsing, as it - - - CHAIRPERSON: By all means, if you have any proposal that you wish to put forward relating to the conditions, give them to us - - - 15 MS JONES: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: - - - and make sure we get them before the planners who are caucusing on conditions caucus, not caucus, I mean – give 20 contemporaneous evidence on the conditions before they give evidence. MS JONES: Now in the process for how – Thank you very much, your Honour, I will certainly take that on board. 25 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now, could we break for lunch now? It is 1 o’clock. MS JONES: Yes. Sorry. Yes. 30 MR CAMERON: Sir, just before we go. I had not wanted to interrupt, but I have one question that I should have asked Mr Kenderdine, and while Mrs Halakas is here I would particularly like to do that, if I could. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. 35 MR CAMERON: I think it is one, it may be two. It will not take a minute. Mr Kenderdine, if we could just look at Annexure two, the long section there of the shared path and if we look at it where it unclips through to just to the north of the St Joseph’s Church structure? 40 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not sure what do you mean by St Joseph’s Church structure? 45 MR CAMERON: This. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7294 CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see it. MR CAMERON: Sorry, sir. The - - - 5 MR...... : I think it is too dark. MR KENDERDINE: I think, he is talking from roughly - - - 10 MR...... : Oh, here you go. MR...... : Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, right. 15 MR KENDERDINE: - - - roughly from there, round and slightly just off the page. MR CAMERON: Just can we bring the page up? 20 MR KENDERDINE: Here we go. From about there, say, to about there. Would that be - - - MR CAMERON: That is exactly what I am talking about. Can you – you 25 anticipated the question. And without disturbing structural detail, so in other words, without changing that is it possible to change the alignment of that shared path within that section of it by up to three metres? 30 MR KENDERDINE: We are looking at exactly that option, being mindful to the structural needs and also the urban design evidence and landscape evidence that has been presented and the process that we need to go through. But it would appear that there is an option, a viable option, to bring the pedestrian footbridge an additional three metres away from 35 the Halakas residence. CHAIRPERSON: That would be to the south, would it? MR KENDERDINE: Well, effectively, it is to the - - - 40 MR CAMERON: Closer to the bridge, south-west. CHAIRPERSON: Closer to the bridge. 45 MR KENDERDINE: Closer to the bridge, yes. From our point of view there is a number of benefits from that exercise, not least of which is the Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7295 reduction in the number of piles. Hence the reduction in the number of piers, which I think, from an urban design point of view, they are quite keen to see that, if possible. Because obviously those columns obstruct views and, and, and, and. So that is currently what we are doing. In 5 terms of what we are looking at and I guess we are canvassing opinions and we will present it if it goes through that process to the urban design and landscape certifiers and work that through with them. MR CAMERON: So that would be a process that you would anticipate as 10 being appropriate within the detailed design process? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. [1.05 pm] 15 MR CAMERON: And just for completeness, because Mrs Halakas may want to talk to you about that in the luncheon adjournment, I do not know, and she is welcome to do so from my perspective. But it also has benefits, I think, for Regional Wines and Spirits, is that correct? 20 MR KENDERDINE: It does. It reduces the number of piles and piers in their car park to one from two. And there is no doubt about it that in terms of the business, parking a 60 to 100 tonne crane in the car park for longer than you need to is not a good idea, so if we can reduce that then that 25 will be of benefit. MR CAMERON: Good. I am obliged to the Board. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will adjourn until 2 o’clock. 30 ADJOURNED [1.05 pm] RESUMED [2.16 pm] 35 CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now, Ms Jones? MS JONES: Jumping back a little bit, Mr Kenderdine, you say in section 2.12 of your supplementary evidence that in part of your roles you have advised on the mitigation of construction effects? So I just have a 40 couple of questions on the mitigation options. Is your brief to this project to also look at the budgeting for the range of mitigations which some submitters have asked about such as double glazing or the temporary accommodation elsewhere? 45 MR KENDERDINE: We have been asked to assist with Opus or NZTA in terms of coming up with some of those numbers. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7296 MS JONES: So do you have consideration for how many affected people you might be looking at helping with mitigation? 5 MR KENDERDINE: At the moment that sits with the advice of Mr Dravitzki and obviously the outcome of the Board and also NZTA. And I guess I am saying my view in that is not pertinent. MS JONES: That is fine. In relation to the input of the community reference 10 group, is their views or their sort of recommendations going to play any part in decisions on mitigation, so whether it be temporary relocation or other measures? MR KENDERDINE: I mean, I would have thought that in the broad sense, 15 yes, I think whether or not an individual ends up with double glazing will not be a matter for common discussion with the wider public for obvious reasons. MS JONES: I could sort of speculate perhaps that given a choice between five 20 days of intensive noise and the option to be located at a motel or hotel or similar place – and that would be paid for by the project – versus five days intense noise not being paid for, or a spread number of days with no sort of accommodation that you will have actually different responses. Do you think that is - - - 25 MR KENDERDINE: I would say that is quite likely, yes. MS JONES: So that it would make sense in that way for there to be very close connection between the planning and the mitigation options that could 30 be offered? MR KENDERDINE: In that respect, definitely, in terms of whether or not we have a short intense period versus a wider dispersed activity, yes. 35 MS JONES: And is that something that you would have capacity to authorise, or approve, or is that something that would be handled by somebody else? MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess at the of the day, I guess the phase goes, 40 the buck stops with me, but the way the alliance works, there is obviously – all the parties are there, so NZTA will be part of that discussion, as will the various affected parties. MS JONES: Right. And so do you know to what extent the decisions on that 45 would be kept by financial versus what is best for the members in the community, or the project? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7297 MR KENDERDINE: I think that is probably straying outside my remit at the moment. 5 MS JONES: Okay. Just that there have been questions about sort of cost as being a factor and how important that is in the weighting that is given to those decisions. MR KENDERDINE: Oh, well I mean, I guess, from my point of view, that 10 the cost of the mitigation is obviously clearly part of the discussion. It is not the only part of the discussion, but it is definitely part of the discussion. [2.20 pm] 15 MS JONES: So that in general, given that temporary relocation is likely to be cheaper than such other structural mitigations, would that be the preferred option if people do need to have solutions found for them? 20 MR KENDERDINE: I guess I do not really have a preferred at this stage. So, yes. MS JONES: Okay, now I am aware that we are running against the clock a little bit, well, I certainly am, so I am going to probably jump a few 25 sections and go onto a different topic which is cricket and the impact of the construction on that. You refer in 3.6 of your supplementary evidence to questions raised about the construction of the Northern Gateway period and developing an agreement for how that would be handled. Now, my understanding is that there are questions raised 30 about construction of the entire project, the piles and everything else. Is there any proposal to have an agreement for all of those other parts to ensure that cricket is not disrupted by those other construction phases? MR KENDERDINE: I think that the process around that, I am just looking at 35 your – the thing you addressed us to earlier to see whether Wellington cricket is in there. In terms of the community reference group, it does not appear to be just at a quick glance. MS JONES: No, it does not. 40 MR KENDERDINE: But very clearly, I mean, if you look at 3.7 there is an agreement around the construction of the Northern Gateway building and there will be dialogue with them as to when significant activities are taking place. 45 MS JONES: Yes, but the Northern. Sorry - - - Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7298 MR KENDERDINE: If people want to practice, I am not going to necessarily stop piling. But if there is a one-off test of international status, putting piles down outside the front gate at that particular day would, 5 obviously, not be ideal. So, yes, that is just part of the wider discussion. MS JONES: So when you refer to a one-day test, you are of course meaning an up to five day test, plus another day of preparation are you not? 10 MR KENDERDINE: Sorry, I am not a cricketer, but if it is a five-day test, yes. MS JONES: Tests are five days, international games are one day. Now, given that the Northern Gateway building, if constructed, would actually be within the grounds of the Basin Reserve, you would of course have to 15 get agreement for that. However, the question was more about whether construction would be continuing during the period of games that are being played. You know, construction of piles and other things. Do you see that construction continuing or would there be down tools during the times of other games as well? 20 MR KENDERDINE: Again, I guess it is not quite so black-and-white. If we had a high noise activity occurring – or high visibility, as for instance, if we were talking large piling cranes for instance, operating in an area that was sensitive to the cricket match, then we would have that 25 discussion as to how we would manage that. The stopping of all works because of a cricket match is unlikely because some of those works will not generate noise or disruption. MS JONES: So can you give an agreement that works that do not produce 30 noise above the ambient traffic level of, I think it is 60 to 75 decibels, would not be carried out during the time of a cricket game? Would that agreement be able to be produced? MR KENDERDINE: I think in due course I will talk to the Wellington cricket 35 group about exactly what those parameters are. MS JONES: So talking – I am asking for something a bit more substantial than that. To give the security, because you know, people want to know in advance. 40 MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. And we would have that agreement before there was any construction was underway and before any cricket matches were being played during construction. But it comes to this point as I have not personally sat down with the Basin Reserve Trust or 45 the Wellington cricket – I am sorry, I am not sure if that is their official title – as to what their key sensitivities are. And whether or not, if we Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7299 are carrying out piling over by Regional Wines and Spirits for instances, they may say, ‘Well, that is fine,’ or when we explain the noise levels and the level of effect that may have. 5 [2.25 pm] So until I have done that, I cannot give you a concrete answer because I have not worked with them about the parameters. 10 MS JONES: And of course, you do appreciate - - - CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Jones, the agreement reached between the Wellington City Council, the Basin Reserve Trust, and the Transport Agency provides for them to agree on their construction program 15 during the cricket season. So we - - - MS JONES: They do not, however, necessarily represent all cricket fans wanting to watch. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Well yes, I know, but you have got to - - - MS JONES: Yes, thank you for - - - CHAIRPERSON: Got to draw a line somewhere. 25 MS JONES: Thank you for clarifying that. Now I think we have discussed some of the questions I had about the community reference group, so probably, although I think it should still include cycling and pedestrian input, that is something that may be outside your ability to comment 30 on. Sorry, I am just checking through my questions for what has been covered. Noise monitoring: In section five at 5.1 and 5.5, there is reference to monitoring of the project. And that you say in 5.1 that 35 baseline noise measurements would be made, and in 5.5 you say that there would be noise monitoring sites established in the area. Yesterday – No, sorry not yesterday. The previous day when we were discussing with Mr Dravitzki about the use of publicly accessible noise monitors, which I sort of asked about, he was concerned that uninformed use of 40 monitors might not be helpful. So I would now ask, would it be possible for there to be ongoing, regular use of noise monitors and information updates for the public, possibly added on to a website or some person designated to handle information about that, partly - - - 45 MR KENDERDINE: I think the short answer is yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7300 MS JONES: Good, because - - - MR KENDERDINE: We would be – my assumption, and it may well be in the plan, there is quite a lot of plans, quite a lot of words, but my 5 assumption is that we will be regularly monitoring. We will be publishing the, like, our initial testing before we do activities and the like, and that that would be publicly available on a wider sense, but very much so to the community reference group and the particular parties around. 10 MS JONES: Part of my – Which may be a positive from your end, is that Mr Dravitzki discussed the misinformation where people think that the noise is coming from one area whereas in fact, it is coming from a different area. And so actually having accurate information relating to 15 the project may be more helpful so that people can then can track down if it is actually something different, so that the more publicly available the information is, the fewer ongoing problems there might be as a result of noise. 20 MR KENDERDINE: Definitely, it is a vexed question I understand, but yes, if we can provide the information that helps with the conversation. MS JONES: Okay. Now would it be fair, when you are talking about how things have been handled with Memorial Park Alliance on that project, 25 that the approach is to comply with the legal requirements for noise management and other environmental management? MR KENDERDINE: In terms of the Act? 30 MS JONES: Yes, in terms of the Act and the conditions that were approved. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, we definitely attempt to. Sometimes we have not quite managed, but we always attempt to follow both the act the plans that are certified under that. 35 MS JONES: Okay, is there anything in the approach that has been taken that actually goes beyond compliance? MR KENDERDINE: I cannot think of anything off the top of my head, but 40 we do, I think, strictly speaking for instance, the shutting down or the quiet periods on a couple of occasions is not strictly in compliance, so it is what we have enabled to agree around an event for instance, at the National War Memorial. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7301 [2.30 pm] MS JONES: Perhaps it would be sort of clearer, I’ll just explain a little bit what I mean. There is a difference between a compliance based regime 5 and an in principle commitment to not doing harm which, you know, I'm sure you appreciate. Just like you can have a set of, you don’t do this because these are hazards versus take a safety culture approach for managing hazards and that awareness sort of raising. 10 Could you sort of say which balance is taken within the Memorial Park alliance and what would be taken if in this project perhaps? MR KENDERDINE: I think we are getting probably areas outside of my expertise but I guess the approach is that this is we have the noise, on 15 the specific one, we obviously have the noise criteria and we try to use that as the basis for conversation and the activity. If we find occasions where even in compliance with those strict criteria there are issues being raised or impacts, then we will try to address 20 those if we can. MS JONES: So in terms of how this is handled within the project as a whole, perhaps I’ll give another example. When Chorus was doing its digging in the roads at Mount Victoria, there was a top level commitment to 25 working with the community. However, some of the agreements were not communicated to the staff so that there were works going on at different times, different subcontractors doing things that actually resulted in noise impact that 30 were not officially approved. Could you outline a bit, what level of training and awareness of issues is there for the staff and also in relation to that, whether the workers on the project would be employees, contractors, casuals and what type of 35 safety training or programme. It’s just that I am aware that it makes an impact. MR KENDERDINE: It’s quite a broad range, but I guess if I start with the approach, yes I’m fully mindful and again, I think it goes to a question 40 that was raised earlier just about the level of which information is conveyed to all the people in the project. One of the positives of this project which, ironically, people are seeing as large, but the number of people involved in a direct sense isn't huge. 45 At around 150 out there on site, we actually have an ability to engage with quite a lot of them. The majority of those on this site are probably Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7302 subcontracted, but some of them are on the project for the duration and are very much part of what we see as the family. And we have a number of events; breakfasts, what we call tailback 5 meetings which is effectively bringing everyone together to talk about health, safety, cultural aspects. If needs to, we have specific one-off meetings to discuss things. Everyone coming into the project is inducted in health and safety, but 10 also these other issues which I talk about in my earlier evidence, what we call the key result areas. So a healthy environment, which is to do with noise and discharge and what have you, is one of those. Proud Legacy is another one. Our stakeholder relationships are right 15 up there. So those sorts of things we discuss with every single person that comes onto the site. Sometimes it doesn’t get through as one might like, but we keep working at that. MS JONES: Okay, so under the Health and Safety in Employment Act there 20 is the opportunity for the workers to elect representatives though part of the Health and Safety plan. Now that, my memory suggests, is for employees, not necessarily contractors. But do you know, sort of, just from your recollection whether there will be a health and safety group? 25 MR KENDERDINE: There is a health and safety committee and we don’t draw a distinction between subcontractors or direct employees in terms of the representation on that. MS JONES: And I raise this because, of course, you know sites where there is 30 an active committee are safer and this can have an impact locally. Okay, moving to a different topic which is on traffic logistics, would I be right in thinking that your role includes oversight of the logistics for what is moving around, coming to the site like delivery of materials, 35 equipment and what is happening in the neighbourhood? [2.35 pm] Is your planning including some of the other infrastructure and utility 40 changes in the neighbourhood, because I understand from Capacity, they are going to be doing water main replacement starting in July next year. And just that there will be quite a lot of time overlap. So have you, at this stage, looked at the timing for the calendar of when that might happen? 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7303 MR KENDERDINE: We have. It changes, the various utility managers and asset owners do tend to change their programmes. We are much better dressed, if that's the right expression, for this part of the project than we were for National War Memorial Park, because it happened with such 5 haste. We have been talking with the likes of Capacity, Powerco, the gas people, Wellington Cable Car Company etc., about exactly when they need to do asset upgrades, whether those assets are assets that we 10 would be impacting on anyway to make sure that we don’t put a pipe down one day and they come along and replace the severed pipe the very next day. And there's a good cartoon I’m sure to be had if that occurs. 15 So, we are working quite hard - - - CHAIRPERSON: And I bet your bottom dollar it does. MS JONES: Yes, well, like we have had the Friday worker putting stuff down 20 from Chorus and the Sunday morning very early the different subcontractor coming and digging up the same area. MR KENDERDINE: Well, I mean it’s funny you say that, because prior to getting into heavy civil infrastructure, I used to marvel at that. But now 25 that you’re in it you see how often it happens for very good reasons. So for instance, as an example, just directly outside the entrance to the Basin Reserve, there’s a water main. Now we will need to take up and shift that water main and in shifting that water main we will be talking 30 to Capacity about whether they would like to increase the size of it in the way through. When we go to lay it, some of that is in the carriageway, so one option is to dig the trench, which is one activity if you like, and make sure 35 that’s in the right direction at the right level. And then fill it and temporarily seal across the top of it before we come back and put the pipe in. The other option is metal plates, which are notorious for banging and 40 clanking as cars go across them. So, for some of the best reasons in the world you end up literally appearing to dig the same hole three times. MS JONES: Now given that this is likely to be happening with a range of areas and that local people are going to be saying, who’s doing this, 45 who do I contact? To what extent would the alliance be able to provide some kind of coordination of communications? Or would they be Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7304 saying no, it’s this person? I mean how would that be able to be handled in the best way for the local people? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and that's a real problem, I can fully appreciate that 5 already. We have had a number of instances where we have answered calls about whether or not we have been working at a particular location or a particular time. And on a State Highway or a road network where you have 12 different 10 utility providers plus two different road controlling authorities and probably in the order of 37 different contractors involved in various components, it’s very hard to keep track. That said, we are, as I said, working quite closely with them and we 15 will endeavour to make sure that we know what they are doing and they know what we are doing. So at the very least we can point people in the right direction. Just saying it’s not us sometimes doesn’t help. And we will obviously know who the people are who are dealing with 20 various aspects so. MS JONES: And, presumably, each of these works that is happening will have had some level of consent and approval for it to happen? 25 MR KENDERDINE: There’s quite a lot in the Wellington District Plan and Mr Daysh may be able speak on this later, but permitted activities within the road corridor, so they may not actually need consent. The only consent you would have is the road controlling authority to open the road up or to shut parts of the road. 30 MS JONES: So as a local resident, I am hearing you say that effectively, if these permitted activities can happen, anybody could be digging up the road and I wouldn’t know who they are? Except for asking them? 35 I’m sorry, I’m not sort of criticising you, I’m just sort of saying that, I was going to say that, you know, Wellington City Council or a District Council or a Regional Council could help, but it doesn’t sound as if they would be in a better situation either. 40 [2.40 pm] MR KENDERDINE: Well, they would know if they were involved in the Road Controlling Authority because they would have given permission for that activity to occur. So that would, most of them, have a plan that 45 is submitted at that time anyway which has contact people, and the duration of work and the like. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7305 MS JONES: So, when the project is continuing would there be any form of a communications’ agreement with Wellington City Council or the like for how information could be shared? 5 MR KENDERDINE: I guess we would look to do that, I am not sure if it would be formalised but we would definitely look to make sure that we both have a clear picture of each other’s activities. 10 MS JONES: I mean, I am old fashioned, I like Memorandum of Understanding. I like it being sort of out there so people know where to go and see things and I am also tech savvy enough to think, this should all go on a website so that I can look it up. And those are just two of the options that I would see but it is again, how can we make it more 15 information secure for people who are going to be affected. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I appreciate that. MS JONES: Okay, so you are aware of the issue but you have not got solution 20 at this stage, is that what you are saying? MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MS JONES: Okay. Um, another area that is going to be affected by this is bus 25 services, um, particularly those say for Kent and Cambridge Terraces. So, how will bus users be advised of information? Is this something that you would be relying on the bus company to do or what would be the mechanism? 30 MR KENDERDINE: To be fair, we have not got into the detail of all of that but we have been talking to the various bus companies already. There is a, obviously, a strong structure around the Construction Traffic Management Plan, a site specific Temporary Traffic Management Plans around exactly all of that. Who communicates what to whom, 35 when and how? So, our intention would be and as I was talking earlier, of making some of these changes for the long term so that people do not have to go one day to a bus stop here, the next day the bus stops down there, three 40 days later the bus stops back again. You know, our intention is to put these things in place so that when we do communicate them we have got lead into the communication and that when they are moved or something changes that it changes long enough for people’s patterns to change before it moves back if that makes sense. 45 MS JONES: Yes, absolutely. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7306 MR KENDERDINE: That there is not continual change on a daily basis. MS JONES: Because at the moment one of the services, you may be aware it 5 is provided, is identifying the location of bus stops for people who are blind or vision impaired. And every time that these are changed there are people like I helped a chap just last week, you know, white cane and all the rest of it. He knows where the bus stop used to be but it had moved. So it is like that awareness of accessibility issues for people 10 needs to more than just those who are walking without a push chair, without a cane. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. So, we also when we do make changes we populate the area with what we call the “ask me people” which are literally high 15 visibility vests with ask me written on the back of it. MS JONES: For somebody who is blind that does not really help. MR KENDERDINE: No, but they will go and obviously see the person and 20 talk to them. MS JONES: All right. MR KENDERDINE: So, I am not expecting people to understand who they 25 are. Their purpose is interact with everyone on the footpath or everyone around. Yes. MS JONES: Okay, which is very helpful and as I said before it is good to know that has been thought about but we want to know what it is 30 because that gives a bit of security. Just another minor point of clarification on a different topic, 3.2 about the project talks about some of the ancillary activities that would happen. On one of them it mentions is vegetation removal. Could you talk me through which vegetation is being removed? 35 [2.45 pm] MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess anywhere that potentially is being impacted upon by the construction works and I am just going through the staging diagrams. It could be as little as the grass is in somewhat bedraggled 40 grasses in the front of Regional Wines and Spirits through to the slightly more intensively planted area directly outside the northern entrance to the Basin Reserve. So, as a rule we do not tend to remove vegetation until we have to 45 because either we are putting a roadway underneath it or there is services going through area or in the case of the green area on the Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7307 staging plan in front of you which is stage one, there are some grasses and trees within the St Joseph’s car park I understand which would be removed to enable the building to be removed into the car park to be reinstated. 5 MS JONES: DC19 in the conditions, just a brief one, refers to native fauna and prior to construction a lizard salvage survey should be undertaken in all potential habitats immediately before they are removed. 10 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MS JONES: Was there a similar condition for the Memorial Park Project? MR KENDERDINE: Not that I am aware of, no. 15 MS JONES: Right. The reason why I asked specifically about that is that there were native lizard populations in that area immediately around the area of the crèche, and of course, they have been cleared and their vegetation is totally gone. So, I am a little sceptical about, you know, 20 shutting the door after the horse has bolted type of approach being taken. But I do not know whether the conditions, you cannot do anything about what is already gone but - - - MR KENDERDINE: Sorry, our intention would be if that may be some help is 25 obviously those sorts of activities would be happening in stage zero before any physical work has happened. MS JONES: But the movement of the crèche is a physical work, this has already started happening, hasn’t it? 30 MR KENDERDINE: I think there was a long and lengthy debate yesterday about the relocation of the crèche as being part of the National War Memorial Park Act, that work is underway, I need to get the park finished. 35 MS JONES: Except it was not needed to be moved. MR KENDERDINE: I guess I am looking to the Board to not want to go there again but we can if you would like. 40 MS JONES: Right, well, I was just tabling that issue. That I see on the one hand, putting the conditions in as being well and good but on the other hand I compare it to what I have seen happen so I have concerns about where the theory and the practice do not match up and what remedies if 45 any there would be. Now, that is just a minor example and it may not make any difference. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7308 MR KENDERDINE: But I do not think there is a condition to that as part of the Act. 5 MS JONES: No. MR KENDERDINE: So, of the National War Memorial Park, so the supposition that something was not in the Act that will then happen differently, I think, is incorrect if I may say so. If it is part of this 10 decision then I think you can have some confidence that it will occur. MS JONES: But it is just that that meshing or to say, vegetation removal with another area surveying for fauna I have not seen lizards anywhere also in the area but I am not a herpetologist. 15 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that condition reflects a requirement by the ecologists and it was discussed at some length in their evidence. MR JONES: Yes, because I am just sad because I used to enjoy seeing them 20 there and just the final, I think it is the final topic I have got, on something quite different. We heard from Mr Brabhaharan on the design specifications and the strength of the bridge structure which sounds as if it would last forever. But he did refer to the greater likelihood that in the event of a significant earthquake there would be 25 other nearby structures like for example, the portal to the Mount Victoria Tunnel was far more likely to collapse. Does the risk planning for this project have consideration of what next if, for example, traffic cannot go into the Mount Victoria Tunnel because it has been collapsed? 30 MR KENDERDINE: I am sorry but that is outside my area of expertise. MS JONES: So, your risk planning does not go that far? 35 MR KENDERDINE: I am just saying that my expertise does not stretch to the seismic assessment of the Mount Victoria Tunnel. Clearly there is the need to be aware of the drivers of the hospital for instance above the project and that is a very clear driver for us in terms of any traffic management planning that we do, which is that they will need to get in 40 and out, there is a central fire station nearby, we have been dealing with the fact that we have the bomb squad based in the middle of the National War Memorial Park at the moment. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7309 [2.50 pm] So it is not unusual to have to deal with that, but in terms of Mount Victoria tunnel I would be straying outside my field to talk about that. 5 MS JONES: But just in general terms, if there were other eventualities that meant that the connectedness of the road was disrupted then would there be – I mean, it would make to me common sense to down tools until things were evaluated, but I can’t say that that would be 10 guaranteed. MR KENDERDINE: Oh, okay, slightly different then. One of the things, I guess, I have been involved with, was 3,500 earthquakes in Christchurch and being involved with the establishment of the Stronger 15 Christchurch Infrastructure Rebuild Team as well as the CERA Infrastructure Group establishment. So I have taken the role of looking after the bunch of people under my control quite seriously, but they also happened to have all the skills necessary to help get people out of buildings or lift things off other people, if in fact there is an event such 20 as that. So we have food and water for our staff to either get home or to be based at the office doing whatever is needed to be done. MS JONES: Yes, I am thinking of the time frame between – so if there was a significant event that meant that the flyover would not be able to serve 25 as part of the national highway because of damage to other parts of the structure, whether that would be something that would for a period of months sort of mean that there would be a diversion elsewhere while we are doing things. You know, it is like, what awareness is there locally of other priorities? 30 MR KENDERDINE: I think we probably don’t - - - MS JONES: It is probably outside the scope, but - - - 35 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I am going to be honest, I mean I know that is - - - CHAIRPERSON: I think there would be a national emergency and the Government would take over and put someone in to do all this. I do not think it would be this gentleman’s - - - 40 MS JONES: It may become so. Just as, sort of, checking on that sort of – thank you, your Honour, that is the end of my questions, although, as I would say, you know, looking to see what comes out of the proposals. 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Jones. Re-examination? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7310 MR CAMERON: Ms Woods is here, sir, isn’t she? CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? 5 MR CAMERON: There is someone else, who - - - CHAIRPERSON: Oh, there is someone else wanting to cross-examine? MR CAMERON: I am sorry, yes, I do. 10 CHAIRPERSON: No. 15 MR CAMERON: Now just in re-examination please, Mr Kenderdine, you were asked a number of questions yesterday by Mr Milne regarding earthworks and the cost of earthworks. How significant for the cost for item (ph 3.11) in developing the cost estimate is the earthworks volume issue? 20 MR KENDERDINE: I think as I mentioned to Mr Milne yesterday, Mr Brabhaharan pointed out that his understanding of the cost estimate for Option X did not allow for the type of piling that we would now know that we would need to do, if we were to do Option X. 25 That would be – I wonder if I put it like this – a cube of dirt to somewhere between $40 to a $100 a cubic metre, and a pile is in the order of $30,000 and there are 59 piles just in this short section of the trench leading out of the National War Memorial Park underpass at the 30 cost of some hundreds of thousands. I guess the volume of earthworks’ excavation is of note, but the need for piling is a lot more expensive. MR CAMERON: So that is one of the variables relevant, obviously, the extent of piling is a variable relevant to cost, are there other significant 35 variables compared to earthworks which are more significant, less significant or what is the position in relation to variables generally in terms of cost? [2.55 pm] 40 MR KENDERDINE: Well, I think, one of the challenges for any of these projects around the Basin Reserve is the temporary traffic management, for instance, which is a significant expenditure and challenge. And either Option X or Option F both have quite challenging structures to 45 keep the traffic flowing smoothly while you are building it, but also to Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7311 be able to then transfer it on to the new alignments simply and effectively. So that is a reasonably large variable. The nature of the soil, so if it is contaminated, it is quite a lot more 5 expensive to remove and dispose of, although, to be fair, that only tends to happen in the top surface (INDISTINCT 00.00.55) not at depth. And obviously, as we talked about the geological conditions and the variability thereof can have a significant effect. 10 MR CAMERON: And so if we were comparing, for example, cost estimates for an option evaluation process relevant to Option X and Option A, for example, is earthworks a significant factor or not in the context of cost comparison? 15 MR KENDERDINE: The variance – and I am just trying to recall here – the variance in earthworks and we were talking 88,000, from what I understand, removing the nominal 45,000 that was part of the National War Memorial underpass project. So we are talking roughly 40,000, and I think the figures yesterday were 19,500. So quickly doing the 20 maths that is 80,000 out of projects that are measured in tens of millions. So yes, it all helps, any reduction in volume or cost helps, but whether or not we are talking of a reduction of 20,000 cubic metres in the over-all scheme of things, is reasonably insignificant. 25 MR CAMERON: And in terms of fire and life safety considerations, what is the position concerning that issue in relation to cost, first? MR KENDERDINE: Well, cost, fire and life safety is a potentially huge variable in cost. If we – and it goes to all matters – so that if you have 30 to put in, and I believe, Option F, if we take that as an example, that is a quite a long – not a long tunnel in international standards – but it is 400 and something metres long, you would need a separate egress for pedestrians, which means your trench and structure is that much wider, which means much more piles to keep that area under the grounds in 35 the event of an earthquake. You would definitely need smoke extract and air change systems. You would need deluge systems and those are all measured in millions. So the challenge with all of those, and as we have discovered, is 40 actually getting agreement on your fire engineering brief with all of the statutory authorities, because there is no “one size fits all”. So it is not a matter of just saying “Well, I will do this, and that will solve the problem” – it may not solve the problem. That if the fire engineering brief is not signed off, both by the safety and the statutory authorities, 45 you will need to do what is required, so I guess the suggestion yesterday that we were just going to cut some slots in the roof, Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7312 potentially, or open it up as a trench would solve all of those problems, again, that is a statement I would make advisedly because I wouldn’t be sure of that until I had done quite a lot of work with fire engineers and they are notoriously a challenging bunch to work with. 5 MR CAMERON: And just to go back to the cost of, let’s just say, the difference between 20,000 cubic metres, sorry, the costs per cubic metre – I am sorry, I don’t have a note put in front of me and I am just trying to deal with it. The cost of 20,000 cubic metres less earth to 10 remove than that calculated by Opus on the one hand and the architecture centre on the other, to cut to the chase, in dollar terms, is that in the order of, what? [3.00 pm] 15 MR KENDERDINE: Well the volume, I think, I forget what rate they used – either groups used. So I would use our extraction rate which was in the order of $40 to $45 a cube, so 20,000 cubes that is $800,000. 20 MR CAMERON: Thank you, so that is the context for the issue? MR KENDERDINE: As I understand, the discussion around the cross-section put to me yesterday. 25 MR CAMERON: Now, that cross-section that was put to you yesterday, is that this document that I am about to show you? MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I believe it is, yes. 30 MR CAMERON: And just for the record, and to ensure that nobody can be concerned about the record, but without the NZTA accepting the utility or otherwise of that drawing which has been prepared by the architecture centre I think, has it not? 35 MR KENDERDINE: I understand so, yes. MR CAMERON: So without accepting its contents, but for the record, can that please be produced as Kenderdine 03, please. 40 EXHIBIT KENDERDINE.3 MR KENDERDINE: I am sure all will be revealed. MR CAMERON: All has been, Mr Kenderdine (INDISTINCT 2.08). Now, I 45 do want to briefly just go back to the crèche issue with you, please. Can you please put up annexure F, please, on the screen? Thank you. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7313 Now, just so that we understand the setting in which the crèche will be located within the National War Memorial park, we can see where the crèche is to be relocated to, we have discussed the boundary – new 5 boundary of the Memorial Park yesterday. And so in relation to setting, is that described on pages 10 and 11 of annexure C, document 2 of your summary of evidence that you filed and discussed yesterday? MR KENDERDINE: Just so I am clear, you are talking the - - - 10 MR CAMERON: The studio-specific document. MR KENDERDINE: Studio-specific document? 15 MR CAMERON: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: That refers directly to the area around the crèche in its new location. 20 MR CAMERON: Right, so that is the proposed new – 2.8.1 of that document, it describes the proposed new location and the landscaping, and then there is a more detailed description that follows, which has been written by Mr Hardwick-Smith and incorporated directly into the document. 25 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: And is it your understanding that that description reflects the approach that is to be taken in the construction of the park, in relation to this issue? 30 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: Thank you. Now, without wishing to transgress in any way, can we please turn to the purpose of the Act which is section 3? 35 [3.05 pm] CHAIRPERSON: Just before we move on, could we go the proposed new location and landscaping, if you look at the second paragraph under 40 281, it says the proposed new location and landscaping connects with the border landscape and streetscape works associated with the Basin Bridge and War Memorial Park. MR CAMERON: Yes. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7314 CHAIRPERSON: And then it says, at the top of page 11, I have read all this last night. ‘In its new location, the crèche fronts Buckle Street just west of the bridge landing.’ 5 MR CAMERON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: So it has obviously been designed to fit in with the work. MR CAMERON: Well, perhaps Mr Kenderdine can comment further on that. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do not know whether he can. He is the project manager for the construction of this. MR CAMERON: All right, I think it is a point I am trying to develop here 15 more generally. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is what that says. MR CAMERON: I know, I understand, yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And the point is, and the relevance of it is, if it was designed for the purposes of the bridge then the adverse effects could well be consequential, the adverse effects arising from the project. And that is the issue. 25 MR CAMERON: Yes, I understand that. CHAIRPERSON: And I think that is why Mr Milne is pushing it. And I want to be fair and give you an opportunity, otherwise we have to make an 30 inference from the documents we have and that have been presented. Now, that makes it quite clear that the crèche has been moved so as its new location is tied in with the Basin Bridge and War Memorial Park projects. 35 MR CAMERON: I fully appreciate the point. CHAIRPERSON: So I am making it now to give you an opportunity to address it. 40 MR CAMERON: Right. CHAIRPERSON: Remembering of course, that whoever negotiated with the Government or whatever it was, is not giving evidence before us, and this gentleman was not involved in that. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7315 MR CAMERON: In terms of the design of the park, has that design had regard to – Well, what has that design had regard to in the context that other matters under consideration such as matters before this board? 5 MR KENDERDINE: There are a number of different aspects to that particular question, both large and small scale. And I guess, at the large scale, this project has been – the National War Memorial Park project, has been to all extents and purposes accelerated by the act to enable the park as envisaged and as shown on the drawing, to be completed in time. 10 Doing that, we have had to have cognisance of a number of things. And one of those is the preferred option of NZTA to build the bridge at some stage in the future. So in an ideal world it would all align. It has not, and possibly because of that, some of these questions have arisen. We have also had to have cognisance of the fact that this project may 15 not go ahead at all. This project being the Basin Reserve Bridge, because as I understand it, if significant changes proposed, i.e. an at- grade solution, then NZTA would have to reconsider. So we have taken the, I guess, the lead from the likes of Historic Places Trust and a number of things – A number of organisations like that, Wellington 20 City Council and their heritage people, as to, we might just have to leave that area safe and walk away. And that partly comes to, for instance, the layout of the tunnel. So that has got to meet Sussex Street at-grade for an indeterminate period of time for Sussex Street to operate whether or not the bridge goes ahead. That took people quite a 25 long time to get sorted out so that it was safe in the long term. [3.10 pm] MR CAMERON: You are talking about the Crèche being safe in the long 30 term? MR KENDERDINE: Safe, but also the underpass so the Crèche is safe, the underpass safe. When we leave we have got to leave it because we might be leaving it as it is sort of finished. We have had to have regard 35 to a number of things. Another thing that is going on is the discussion as to the long term function and use of the Museum so there are a number of proposals currently being discussed as to what happens with the museum and Massey and its expansions plans which we have had to have cognisance of in terms of the layout of the Park. 40 The taking into consideration the fact that the Basin Reserve bridge is the preferred option of NZTA is obviously a very obvious thing, but there are a number of other items associated with the development of a park which are very similar. During my lifetime with the project the 45 park has grown into the building that we now use as our office at the other end of the Park on Taranaki Street. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7316 As I understand it that foreshadowed by the increase of the dotted blue line around into Martin Square from Taranaki Street so the fact that this is a live, looking backwards now into what was being sorted in the days 5 and minutes prior to the signing of the Act is quite challenging because of all these things that are going on at the same time. Down to the minute which is we have to look, we have taken cognisance of the future aspirations for capacity underground and the 10 same with the Wellington Electricity Company. None of this can quite happen without reference to these items around and we have had to do of course through the middle. CHAIRPERSON: I do not think there is any criticism of NZTA for doing 15 what they did. That is not the point or for the government of doing what it did. What the government has done is done and it is not for us to criticise what they have done or for anyone else for that matter, nor is it necessarily critical of us to say well you have got a preferred project, we are designing this millions of dollars let’s fit it in, in the 20 hope that we get consent. There is nothing wrong with that, the issue is simply this, was it done to enable the bridge if it gets consent to go there and if that is the reason then that is the reason the crèche was shifted and it could have 25 legal and effects on what we take into account in the weighing process is to the adverse effects arising out of the project. It is as simple as that. MR CAMERON: To some degree it becomes a matter of submission. 30 CHAIRPERSON: Of course it can be and it mainly becomes a matter of submission because it is a legal question, it is a difficult legal question but we have got to get our facts straight and I think that Mr Kenderdine has really confirmed that yes it is one of the matters they have to take 35 into account so where we go from there is a matter of submission. It has become a mountain rather than I was going to say a molehill, it might be more than a molehill. 40 MR CAMERON: We are dealing with a number of letters. CHAIRPERSON: I think the whole thing has grown out of proportion that is all I am trying to say. Let us keep it simple and direct. 45 MR CAMERON: And direct, yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7317 CHAIRPERSON: We do not want obfuscation to cloud it. MR CAMERON: No, I am not sure it’s multifactorial and I think that is the issue, well that is the submission is it not? If I can ask one further 5 question? CHAIRPERSON: As a matter of fairness I am trying to give you my thinking on the matter at this stage subject to what I have to hear from yourself and from other lawyers later on, but we need to get our foundations 10 correct in where we stand. [3.15 pm] MR CAMERON: To assist, to answer that question directly and this was the 15 next, I am rather hoping this question assists having regard to the context that is described within the Park for and within which this building is to be relocated, what would the position have been if the building had remained where it is in the context of the purpose of the legislation. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are not really interested in the purpose of the legislation we are interested in the project. For the purposes of the project how would it affect it, that is the question is it not? 25 MR CAMERON: No. CHAIRPERSON: If the crèche stayed where it was would it affect this project? 30 MR CAMERON: If the crèche had stayed, well my question is - - - CHAIRPERSON: Well let us not what I, I do not think that is going to help us but you put it. 35 MR CAMERON: If the crèche, I am going to do both sir to just finish it. If the crèche had stayed where it was or where it is. MR KENDERDINE: Where it was strictly speaking. 40 CHAIRPERSON: We have been fascinated over the last two days. MR CAMERON: It is going to take a while sir. If the crèche had remained in its location what were the implications of that to the concept of the construction of a National War Memorial Park? 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7318 MR KENDERDINE: I guess that is quite a wide ranging question. What I read I guess in my role is a number of references to the nature of the heritage precinct, the ongoing drive for the Minister of Culture and Heritage to create a museum precinct within the area and the awareness 5 that we are rapidly losing some of that heritage around what is planning heritage. I mean the park is planning heritage hopefully for tomorrow so it becomes a significant place in the landscape and mindscape of New 10 Zealanders. Within that context having that particular building left out if you like would be unfortunate and I guess I can only comment to what Alison Dangerfield said which is in her mind that the strengthening and improvement of the building and the integration with the park is of benefit. Being mindful of the fact that in an ideal world 15 you would leave heritage exactly where it was. CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence from the landscape architects who have said that it could have been incorporated into the park where it is now and that is the landscape evidence I think all of them agreed on 20 that. MR CAMERON: If the Basin Bridge project was not approved and the crèche was not moved what would the consequence be for the crèche? 25 MR KENDERDINE: My understanding is that the area to the east of Sussex Street between there and Cambridge Terrace would be left as it is and at some stage in the future decisions as to its function, use or otherwise would be made by the landowner NZTA and the availability of funding. I would strongly suspect it would be sold, so nothing would 30 happen to the crèche I guess is the answer. [3.20 pm] MR CAMERON: In terms of the last question, in the interests of putting all 35 issues squarely. What would the consequence be of leaving the crèche in its current location, to the Basin Bridge project? MR KENDERDINE: So for the proposed Basin Bridge project, it would have to be relocated in some way, shape, or form. 40 MR CAMERON: I think that puts the issues about as squarely as I can, sir. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you for that. I think the rest is legal submission and we will no doubt get that the next week and the 45 following week. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7319 MR CAMERON: Well, I just do not want to leave the facts. CHAIRPERSON: No, well I just wanted to nail them down myself that is all. It seemed to me the whole thing was getting blown out of proportion. I 5 wanted to get it kept in perspective and I wanted the factual matrix clearly set out. MR CAMERON: Sir, I do not think it is - - - 10 MR BAINES: Can I ask one more question? CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR BAINES: Going back to the diagram, in fact, the diagram you have got 15 there, which is essentially the way you wish to leave it at least on the road layout on August this year, am I correct? MR KENDERDINE: Sorry? That one might be easier. 20 MR BAINES: You were saying how in August this year, now you have to reconnect so that people can start using the underpass and so-on. MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 25 MR BAINES: That is that diagram. That has two lanes going left and two lanes going right does it not? MR KENDERDINE: It does. 30 MR BAINES: And if the crèche had stayed in its current position, or in the position that it was last Monday, that layout would still be feasible or not? MR KENDERDINE: That layout would still be feasible, yes. I guess I have to 35 caveat with that the same caveat that I put yesterday. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: As on what we now know. So we always mix the 40 hypothetical with the actual. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, absolutely. MR KENDERDINE: Which is – the hypothetical situation is that possibly 45 not. The actual situation is yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7320 CHAIRPERSON: And I think we can forget about the plans because it is quite clear from the Act that the plan, figure 1 and figure 2 and figure 3 in the act are indicative only. 5 MR CAMERON: Yes, sir. CHAIRPERSON: And so therefore, there is the fact that the crèche is outside the plans is irrelevant. And in fact, there is no reason why they could not have extended the War Memorial to include the crèche in its 10 present position. They could have done it under the Act as well, because it is within the construction area. MR CAMERON: It is, but I am going to ask Mr Kenderdine, what would the implications of that be to the design of the Terraces? 15 CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is a landscaping question is it not? MR CAMERON: Mr Kenderdine did go down there, and I went yesterday in the park and I am sure it could be redesigned. 20 MR KENDERDINE: Well, there is quite a level difference and that, not being a landscape architect but having some interest in architecture that would be challenging. And the Terraces are designed to be used by people sat on walls, so there is a level distinction that would be 25 changed significantly by that. MR CAMERON: Now, in the context of what we are discussing, I will try and come at it from this way. 30 CHAIRPERSON: Are you still going on about this crèche? MR CAMERON: I am just trying to – There is one factor here that I am trying to get to and I am not succeeding. The date that the designation or the date of the act – Sorry. The date that the Act ceases to have 35 effect is what? MR KENDERDINE: I should know that off the top of my head, but it is a month or two after the designation or the resource consent. So MCH’s resource consent, their ability to create things and the powers under the 40 Act disappear two months after the park design. MR CAMERON: Yes, now, if the Basin Bridge project were to be approved - - - Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7321 [3.25 pm] MR CAMERON: - - - Given the date on which the powers of MCH lapse and the designation lapse, could or would the crèche and could the crèche 5 necessarily be relocated to the position - - - CHAIRPERSON: Well that is a legal – That is a planning question and a legal question. 10 MR CAMERON: All right, I accept that sir. Thank you, your Honour. CHAIRPERSON: The question of whether a resource consent is required, and if so, what type of consent it is, and I think we had heard some evidence. Yes, you have given some evidence on that, that it would be 15 a restricted discretionary activity if I recall. So it could be. MR CAMERON: Well - - - CHAIRPERSON: In fact, it would be unlikely for it not to be if it was a 20 restricted discretionary activity. MR CAMERON: Well, it is a park, it is a National War Memorial Park. CHAIRPERSON: I am just saying, I am not arguing with you, I am saying it 25 is a legal question, we do not need this gentleman to - - - MR CAMERON: No, I accept that. CHAIRPERSON: Because it would be going outside the ambit of his 30 expertise and it is a legal question which we do not need to debate because it is not before us. MR CAMERON: Yes, I accept that. I accept that, but there is a factual matter that I think underpins that point. 35 MR MCMAHON: You can possibly make that point in submissions, Mr Cameron. MR CAMERON: Yes. 40 MR MCMAHON: I have a question of clarification to the witness because I am a little bit confused. MR CAMERON: As you were trying to clarify it, it might assist. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7322 MR MCMAHON: Mr Kenderdine, yesterday in answers to some questions from Mr Milne on this matter, you took us back to the beginning of the project and talked about some uncertainties regarding, I think, you started off by saying you were not aware of the 130-year-old storm 5 water pipes at that stage. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR MCMAHON: You said that there were options of digging a large trench 10 to connect to Sussex Street and that temporary traffic could have gone on to the crèche site. I jotted them down as unknowns at the time that the project was in its inception. MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 15 MR MCMAHON: Are you resiling from those matters now? MR KENDERDINE: No, no, not at all, not at all. That is what I was mentioning in terms of the actual today versus the hypothetical when 20 we started. And I have struggled to work through with NZTA’s legal people because the principle that what we see today and what we are doing today was fully clear only 18 months ago, is not correct. There was a huge degree of uncertainty over what was able to be achieved and in what timeframe, except for the fact that the park had to be built. 25 So in thinking through that, my assumption is that people looking at the environment of the project and some of the powers under the Act, which are really quite something, took it in mind that they were not sure of how that was going to affect everything, and that therefore - - - 30 CHAIRPERSON: Well, you are speculating are you not? MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely, your Honour, and I also make no matter of that. But I was not speculating about the fact that when we first looked at the construction of the underpass, the relocation of the Newtown 35 sewer to an area under where the crèche is at a very low level, was quite a possibility, where the crèche is going to end up, and that the trench that that would require may have had an impact on the side of the crèche. So all I am using that example for is just to show the level of uncertainty at the start of the project. And that now when I say, ‘No, 40 nothing needs to move for the crèche’, I am saying that because that is now what I know. Whereas then, I would not have said the same thing. MR MCMAHON: I think I understand, thank you. 45 MR CAMERON: I think I am going to get into deep trouble if I try and take this any further. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7323 CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is afternoon tea time anyway. MR CAMERON: Oh, can I have a cup of tea on it then, sir, as I have got one 5 question I am really troubled by and I want to be fair about the way I put it. Thank you. ADJOURNED [3.30 pm] 10 RESUMED [3.45 pm] CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cameron? MR CAMERON: Your Honour and I am obliged to the board and I hope I 15 have not untried your patience in the last 10 minutes or so. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cameron. I thought you were going to sit down. 20 MR CAMERON: On the crèche issue. No, I just have one further series of questions. Mr Kenderdine, if Option X had been the preferred option, would the approach to the construction of the park and therefore necessary the underpass have been any different to that taken? 25 MR KENDERDINE: The other night I asked my assembled team exactly that question and the answer that we came up with was probably not. Because of the level of extra investment that would be required to enable the underpass to operate safely for the interim period. 30 MR CAMERON: Has that interim period been? MR KENDERDINE: Being between when we have got to get the traffic through there in, you know, September this year. September, October and any stage in the future when a project or another project gets 35 approved over in the Basin Reserve. MR CAMERON: All right. And in terms of the design freeze that was discussed with Mr Milne yesterday. Did the need for that design freeze or the fact of that design freeze having regard to the underpass for the 40 considerations relevant to the underpass generally? Did that relate to meeting the deadline for construction of the park or cost or contractual issues or what? MR KENDERDINE: The predominant reason for the design freeze in July 45 2012 which I think is the one you are referring to, which to be fair is the design freeze by Opus at that stage, was to draw a line in the sand, Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7324 if you will excuse the expression, for the commercial process or the tendering process that was going on at the time. So that two teams would be given that information and tested against it and that the successful team would then proceed and develop their own solution. 5 MR CAMERON: And so it was a design freeze for tendering purposes? [3.50 pm] 10 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR CAMERON: And in terms of the ability to subsequently vary the design or alter that design, change it, did it have any relevance to that? 15 MR KENDERDINE: Well, I think, as I mention in my evidence, it was frozen in concept and I used that word in the full sense of it in terms of the development of the design, because as we spoke about it yesterday, there is a large brick sewer in the middle of that trench that wasn’t recognised in that frozen design that we had to work around. 20 So yes, the general orientation is more or less the same, but the devil with a lot of these things is in the detail. MR CAMERON: So in terms of the ability to vary or change that design, will 25 that merely be a contractual issue based on recommendations and consideration of detailed design at that point, or what? MR KENDERDINE: It comes back to this need to get the park open and yes, we could have varied that, exactly at what point we could have stopped 30 varying it or adopt another solution, I couldn’t tell you right now without knowing what the option was, but we went through a long process through to the – you know, the issue of our refined design in February 2013, for instance, after that normal freeze, so, yes. 35 MR CAMERON: So what – just so we are all clear – when was what? The direct question in relation to that is when was the final outcome and price struck? MR KENDERDINE: March 2013. 40 MR CAMERON: Right. If the agency had decided to progress Option X as its preferred option, could that be accommodated under the alliance contracting model? 45 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7325 MR CAMERON: And that, sir, is my last question. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now, who is going to go first? Mr McMahan? 5 MR CAMERON: Oh, I am sorry, I have been asked to produce a plan and I do so with your Honour’s leave, with the board’s leave, and if I could ask you, please to have a look at this plan, Mr Kenderdine? Is that plan a plan of the - - - 10 CHAIRPERSON: We will wait until we have it. Just that we know what you are talking about. MR CAMERON: I am sorry, I am going back to a former life, I am sorry. It must be the product of four months, I think, and I apologise to the 15 board. Now that plan diagrammatically or schematically sets out the implications of the realignment of the shared path to the extent we discussed earlier? 20 MR KENDERDINE: It does, yes, that is correct. MR CAMERON: And would you now, please, produce that as Kenderdine 4? 25 EXHIBIT KENDERDINE 04 PLAN MR……….: I am happy to do so. CHAIRPERSON: What was Kenderdine 02? 30 MR BAINES: Supplementary evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Well, that doesn’t need – oh, that one, yes. 35 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, the artwork, with the table, chicken scratchings, I think I referred to. MR CAMERON: Now just so the board is very clear, it will be the agency’s submission that that new alignment is the alignment it prepares (ph 40 5.02). Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7326 [3.55 pm] CHAIRPERSON: Does that need a change to the application? 5 MR CAMERON: No, I don’t believe it does require any change in terms of scope. CHAIRPERSON: No, but I mean, I am not worried about scope, I am worried about certainty. 10 MR CAMERON: No, I don’t think so. CHAIRPERSON: Well, generally, in accordance with the application documents, you produce that document which shows a variation, but 15 there is nothing in the application documents to show that that document is the one that is to be followed, think about it. And get Ms Wedde to think about it. MR CAMERON: I will think about it. Thank you, sir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr McMahon? MR McMAHON: Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, Mr Kenderdine. I have been marking out your supplementary evidence as you have gone along 25 and I have five matters that I was going to put to you. And I think the majority of them might have been answered, but just bear with me, I will just go through them. Yes, paragraph 4.1 on your concise summary. 30 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR McMAHON: And here you deal with the working hours and we had the discussion yesterday about what they might be, 6.00 am to 8.00 pm 35 typically, you have listed there. Two questions there. Firstly, I thought I saw 6.30 am on a previous document; it might as well have been the conditions in the legislation. MR KENDERDINE: I guess it is worth pointing out that these are potentially 40 different to the noise boundaries and that is a conscious decision, because the noise boundaries often get perceived as your start and stop times. So what this is talking about is – you would expect that the tide of Hi-Vis vested, hard-hatted people to start moving around at this time, but that would not necessarily mean a change to those noise 45 boundaries. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7327 MR McMAHON: Okay. And the point there is that whilst they might the typical working hours, there is no condition volunteering those restrictions is there? 5 MR KENDERDINE: No, insomuch as we still have to work through the construction noise and vibration management plan and the certification are the same. MR McMAHON: Yes. And my understanding of that plan and its reference to 10 the New Zealand Construction Standard 6803 is that in theory that allows 24 hour operation albeit that in the later hours the levels on noise control are more stringent. And is that your understanding? MR KENDERDINE: That is my understanding, yes. 15 MR McMAHON: I noticed that released with the designation on the park proposal in the Act, that there was some self-certification of the Construction Environmental Management Plan. 20 MR KENDERDINE: I don’t think it is - - - MR McMAHON: Certification by an approved person or persons. MR KENDERDINE: Which we have taken to be independent. 25 MR McMAHON: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 30 MR McMAHON: Yes, as opposed to any consent authority? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. MR McMAHON: As far as I have been able to ascertain there is a different 35 approach here, the district council or the regional council will be the certifying body, is that correct? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. 40 MR McMAHON: Now just on that page also, further up at 3.5 you talk about the length of the construction period being approximately 30 months and that includes enabling works, you say. Does it include any decommissioning works in that 30-month period? Or is that over and above? 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7328 MR KENDERDINE: Decommissioning in terms of our exit from the site is included in those 30 months. There is a defect period of variable – depending on which item you are talking about – which goes on beyond that, but to all intents and purposes is covered by the road 5 corridor and permitted activities in the road corridor and those normal operations. [4.00 pm] 10 MR MCMAHON: Yes, I was not so much talking about the defects liability period, more the period for exiting the site with your equipment and that sort of thing. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so, I mean the good thing about the sequence is that 15 in the last two stages, 7 and 8, there really is not a lot of work going on and that will mean that we are well and truly out of the other sections of the work, and at most, particularly of section 8, while it is a large area, there is actually not a lot of work going on in there. And that will be done, effectively, by people from their home bases rather than from 20 a construction site office activity. MR MCMAHON: Yes, that takes me to my next question, in fact. If you could go to that chart or timeline calendar, yes, so, can you just – In terms of the two, the initial stage of enabling works and the final stages, what – I 25 am struggling to read it on the screen, but what sort of duration is involved in both of those stages at either end of the project in terms of timeframes? MR KENDERDINE: So the - - - 30 MR MCMAHON: As a proportion of the 30 months’ total. MR KENDERDINE: Right, so that last – The first stage is about three months. Two months, two and a half months, three months, for those, kind of, 35 enabling-type works. And the last stage is also about three months. MR MCMAHON: So on that basis, it would be a call period of 24 months involved in the non-enabling and non-decommissioning type stages? 40 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I mean, in a general sense, yes, that is correct. MR MCMAHON: That is useful, thank you. Yes, can I take you to paragraph 6.2 of your concise summary? And you have outlined some of the consultation with potentially affected parties, one being the Mt Cook 45 School. I just wondered why you chose to signal out that particular Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7329 party as opposed to others. Was there any particular reason that you chose them/ MR KENDERDINE: Well, obviously we have got a very good relationship 5 with them, and there is a lot of concern, and rightly so I guess, out in the community about how we go about these relationships, and I thought that was worthy of note of also the history that most people in the area are aware of the fact that Mt Cook school’s concern effectively derailed an earlier proposal of shifting State Highway 1 hard up against 10 its boundary, and the park to be built on the other side. So in that context, when we come along and say, ‘By the way, the very first thing we are doing is pushing State Highway 1 up against your boundary’, it was a reasonably sensitised environment. 15 So to say it was a concern was an understatement. So I think it is a really good example of where we have gone from that real concern about how this is all going to impact on us, to I would posit, 180 degrees in the other direction which is – Sandra is also quoted as saying she is going to miss us, which is not often what people say about large 20 construction parties. MR MCMAHON: In terms of their position and the way that they - - - CHAIRPERSON: It must be you, Mr Kenderdine. It is your romanticism, you 25 see. MR MCMAHON: And I guess during our site visit on the Saturday a few weeks ago, we got that impression from the various colouring competitions and naming of machinery and that sort of thing. 30 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR MCMAHON: But I just wondered what the Board can make of that. In terms of their position and the way they operate, in your view, would 35 they be the most affected daytime receptor? [4.05 pm] MR KENDERDINE: There are people that work during the day from home at 40 Tasman Gardens who can be impacted upon. And I think it is called Tory Hall, it is a small residential block just down Tory Street. We worked and are working directly outside the window of the conservation room in Te Papa archives which was our very first affected party, because that is where we started breaking up concrete 45 directly outside. And I do not know if you have ever had the pleasure of walking around inside it, but with 95 percent of New Zealand’s Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7330 treasures in there, it is really quite something. And there are objects in there that will literally shake to pieces. So, again, relatively sensitive. The issue with the school and, I guess, Massey on the other side, is 5 their people walk through and around the site constantly as well. So we are extremely mindful of that. We have the J-walking discussion constantly. MR MCMAHON: So one of several daytime receptors? Thank you. Just going 10 on to paragraph 6.5 over the page, you made some reference there towards the end of that paragraph, Mr Kenderdine, about some of the possible mitigations including temporary relocation, and you touched on that this morning. Was I correct in understanding that there have not been any temporary relocations thus far? 15 MR KENDERDINE: There has been the offer, and in a couple of situations for the Mt Cook Police barracks’ commercial operations. MR MCMAHON: Yes. 20 MR KENDERDINE: We were sheet piling six metres away from their front wall, so we offered them to, effectively relocate them if they would like to. They did not. Some of them did and some of them did not. 25 MR MCMAHON: The reason I ask that question, Mr Kenderdine, is that in the draft noise conditions that we have from us, that came out of the conferencing between the two noise experts, relocation has been identified as a possible mitigation fall-back in the event that other matters are not resolved. 30 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR MCMAHON: I am just trying to get a feel for how realistic and how practical that is. 35 MR KENDERDINE: I guess our experience is that, and it is limited to be fair, our experience in the matter. But some people are more than happy to do that, and if it means they just do not need to be near the noise and disruption then they are more than happy at that point. Others, the 40 disruption to their daily life is such that they would prefer not to. MR MCMAHON: In relation to the Grandstand apartments, which that condition is written in respect to, we have heard from – I cannot think of her name, one of the owners who has got tenants in there. And it 45 may well be that while the receptor is the tenant, not the owner. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7331 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR MCMAHON: And I am just wondering the extent to which relocation of the tenant is actually a solution to the owner’s dilemma, if you see what 5 I mean? MR KENDERDINE: Well, this comes a little bit to the discussion we were having with Ms Jones in terms of who is actually affected by this work. Is it the building owner or is it the tenant? Clearly, if we are making 10 noise at 10 o’clock at night and your window is 10 metres away, it is you. And that is who the remedy will be directed that, rather than someone who is sound asleep in Khandallah. MR MCMAHON: Yes, I understand that. I was raising that solely in terms of 15 any commercial arrangements or commercial penalty that the owner might have as a result of relocation. And that is probably not for you to comment. MR KENDERDINE: Well we have had one example of that, and as it 20 happened, we found a solution which is that we have rented it and put one of our staff in there. So the closest receiver to our work is actually one of our staff, that sleeps in 1 Tasman Street. MR MCMAHON: Well I am glad you said that, because that brings me onto 25 my last questions, and it is not intended to be flippant at all, but how would you feel about living in the Grandstand apartments for the duration of the construction period? [4.10 pm] 30 MR KENDERDINE: That is a very good question. I guess, over the course of some of the larger projects I have worked on I have been asked that numbers of times. There is no doubt, at times, it would be quite challenging and that is just one of the things we have got to work 35 through. Interestingly enough, when you look at the evidence of Mr Dravitzki in a noise sense, it is a very high noise environment during the day anyway. So the majority of our activity will unfortunately fit within 40 their current noise boundaries, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, we can probably – it is not for me to discuss, but one does get the impression that if you are on the third or fourth level and you look west, that obviously our construction on the bridge will on nights potentially be disruptive. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7332 And that is where that sort of mitigation has to come into consideration. I am not sure if anyone sleeps in the rooms on the south, facing directly the bridge, but clearly we will need to have that conversation. 5 MR McMAHON: Well, from that side there are some tenants that do. CHAIRPERSON: And they all seem to be bedrooms, just except for one, though. 10 MR KENDERDINE: Right, so the conversation will be, you know, and that is why we talk about some different options here. So it may be that we build a wall temporarily to shield the light and the noise and somehow or other hold that in place during that component of work. 15 MR McMAHON: Or maybe the Construction Environmental Management Plan needs to be written so that the environmental management supervisor does live in the site during the construction period. MR KENDERDINE: Well, it is actually our community relations manager, so 20 he is very aware of the community’s concerns. MR McMAHON: Well, Mr Baines was relaying a very similar situation to me at lunch time about a landfill in the northern part of the North Island where the environmental manager lived on site and he was probably the 25 most affected and became very aware of any complaints very readily. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR McMAHON: Thank you, Mr Kenderdine, that is all from me. 30 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr McMahon. Mr Baines? MR BAINES: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Kenderdine. Just picking up on Mr McMahon’s last point, am I right in thinking, when he asked you, no 35 one has actually been relocated so far. I think you pointed that you have some people in an office or a commercial building, some have chosen to and some had not? MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 40 MR BAINES: But no residents from the apartment building have chosen to? MR KENDERDINE: But, no, and to be fair it is only a recent discussion that we have had with them. Just as you can imagine our concrete pours and 45 things are now literally directly outside whereas previously they were somewhat shielded by the buildings. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7333 MR BAINES: They are getting closer? MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 5 MR BAINES: So, if you compare that, if you take that experience and compare it with what might happen here, you would in fact be much closer to Grandstand Apartments, would you? To any apartment or to any other residential building for that matter, you know, that you might 10 expect that something like that might be a more – it might come into play a bit more? MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely, yes. 15 MR BAINES: Okay. I would just like to take the opportunity, I have got some questions and they really have just to do with the condition around the community reference group and I would like to, if you like, pick your brains, from your experience on how to make this most effective. Cos when I look at it at the moment it just seems to me that it begs a lot of 20 questions? CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just interpolate there just for a second? MR BAINES: Yes. 25 CHAIRPERSON: It is just that you have triggered my memory. I have been meaning to ask if it is possible to have the conditions indexed? MR CAMERON: Yes, it is. 30 CHAIRPERSON: It makes it a lot easier, when we are looking at stuff. Pardon? MR CAMERON: We very much got to that point, haven’t we? 35 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: Yes, absolutely. 40 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR CAMERON: And while I am on my feet I take it you were referring to condition 1, I think, earlier in our conversation about plans. 45 CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7334 MR COLLINS: Of the revised plan for the cycle discussion. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes. 5 MR CAMERON: I did reflect upon it, it took a minute to my adopted (ph 4.52) cycle.. I will need – I have talked to Mr Daysh and we will adjust condition 1 to incorporate in this plan. CHAIRPERSON: That is what I thought. 10 MR CAMERON: Which is the point, I assume, your Honour was making? [4.15 pm] 15 CHAIRPERSON: To incorporate it, that is what I thought. Yes, that is right. MR CAMERON: I understood that and asked him to do that. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you and if we get an index when we are looking 20 at something and we want to look up the conditions, we have to go so we could get them indexed, it would make it a lot easier. MR CAMERON: Mr Daysh is nodding very authoratively so I was going to say in the morning but there we go, as soon as we can. 25 CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you. MR CAMERON: Whip it up. 30 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sorry Mr Baines, it is just that I have been meaning to do it for the last few days and I keep forgetting. MR CAMERON: I should have thought of it myself. 35 CHAIRPERSON: When you said condition something or other it just triggered my memory, thank you. MR BAINES: Right, thank you, so DC6 was the one I am looking at in particular here and really what I want to ask you about from your 40 experience, your practical experience the things to do with the interrelated aspects of membership or composition, function, modus operandi which is different from function and maybe even questions of, I do not know whether you call them resourcing or admin supports, but let me start at the beginning. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7335 I think the composition of this group is quite important to think about but it is very much related to the function, am I right in thinking that, do you see the primary function of the community reference group as being, as a mechanism for managing the direct effects of construction 5 on directly affected people? MR KENDERDINE: I guess we would give primacy to something then that is right up there and probably yes. It is not, but it is very closely followed in this particular case as I said by a number of other things which is the 10 whole completion of the design documentation, the ongoing discussion around the Northern Gateway Building and how that might end up. The building under the bridge that forum is also a sounding board for how that is going. 15 MR BAINES: That is a different function is it not, that is saying we have got a proposal and if the proposal as it is currently before us is approved then there is still work to be done to finalise some elements of it right and I suppose it would be fair to say that if one is thinking about that phase of it, then the stakeholders that have put their hands up for this 20 hearing are amongst those that might be interested in seeing how some of those things are finalised and resolved. Okay, so I can understand what you mean by that function DC6 at the moment I think seems to focus on the construction side of things 25 although what you have talked about is in fact pre-construction finalisation so accepting that they might be more than one function, at some point it then becomes a matter of okay we are now into construction, we know that we are likely to have effects on certain people, we want to be able to be in touch with those people or certainly 30 with representatives of those people. I am just wondering whether in terms of thinking about who should be on this community reference group bearing in mind what you have just said and maybe initially when it is set up it might have a relatively 35 broad membership because you are going through that finalisation stage, but then it moves to a stage where really the only representatives you want there are those who are representing people who are going to be directly affected by the construction activity so nearby residents and business owners and so on, does that make sense? 40 MR KENDERDINE: It does and my experience with community reference groups they do self-select after a while. We intended to, assuming the answer is, the application is allowed we will be trying to contact people as soon as possible, both individually and representative of the groups 45 because that is when there is the most ability to influence both the Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7336 process and how it is formed, tweaking the function, all those sorts of things. Then there is a relatively high degree or an enormous level of interest 5 in how it is going to work because there is an enormous concern. The classic organisational behaviour peak and trough then follows which is quite intense while everyone gets their head around it and learns how everyone fits together and the communication protocols are agreed and, and, and, which is why you need to start it as soon as possible to start 10 that process so that you get into that performing stage. [4.20 pm] The issue with potentially if you say frontloading it with too many 15 people is that you never quite get there. MR BAINES: I am wondering because you made a suggestion before when you were responding to something I think Ms Jones asked you, actually the notion of considering more than one group as such and I am 20 wondering whether that might be a sensible way to address this because it seems to me that if I can use some simple examples. If your concern is we need to finalise what the Northern Gateway Building is going to look like in height and length that that is of interest 25 to quite a number of potential users and other people around it, like a board group but you have also said that in fact the bigger the group, the more difficult it is to (a) to keep it going and (b) to manage it while it is happening. 30 If you were then comparing that for example with now we are going to get into construction, we need to talk to those about how many nights work we have and the kind of information you were giving us before, that is actually not of interest to people who are half a kilometre or more away, it is really for people essentially in this north eastern 35 quadrant, it is quite a small group, for most of the construction effects it is quite a small group. I wonder whether in fact it might make sense to think in terms of having two distinct groups. MR KENDERDINE: It is definitely a possibility but I think the thing about 40 this community reference group is it is kind of this community here and the sense of community both in the business and the residents. In that respect I suspect would work quite well because there is mutual relationships, clearly in my discussions that I have had with a few of the businesses and a few of the people that already exist. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7337 I think the point that was being raised is for instance further away and maybe traffic related or The Architecture Centre which might be design related, it is about, it is not necessarily formalising those groups but it is not that the door will be shut and that I would suggest very quickly 5 that there will be people that would want to, having thought about the question for a while now just provide their insights and thoughts. I mean there is a strict process in here because obviously the end up owner I think is Wellington City Council or something built in the 10 Basin. They are the owner and effectively this is being facilitated once the parameters are agreed upon their behalf. Who they want to include and not include kind of slightly different, but I mean we would not shut the door to anyone that has got comments or 15 suggestions or thoughts. MR BAINES: I can see how that would be a very appropriate approach, a welcoming and increasing approach for that, let us now go to the business end and say okay we have decided that now we are just 20 getting on building this as quick as we can. It is this community over here. Now that really then is about managing, about the most effective way of managing the effects of our construction, whether we are going to disrupt people, make it more difficult to move around, upset their sleep etcetera. 25 Would I assume that in terms of the membership of your community reference group at that stage would be predominantly representatives from that community, maybe some residents from Ellice Street, a couple of commercial operators or whoever but a number of 30 representatives so it will be represented it is not going to be everyone who wants to come from Ellice Street, it is going to be, choose your people, we want half a dozen people, who are they. Presumably also you would have non community reps you would have 35 your consent holder at this, you would have your consent administrator the council and then given that it is a construction project you would have someone from, like yourself or whoever you delegate to. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 40 MR BAINES: Would you expectation be that in fact when you look at that group as a whole most of them are actually representative of the community and you have got these other three that I just mentioned who would be in a sense the other parties discussing. 45 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7338 MR BAINES: It does not have to be lopsided, but it does need to be represents the affected community, does that make sense? 5 [4.25 pm] MR KENDERDINE: That does make sense. MR COLLINS: Okay. 10 MR KENDERDINE: And I guess to that, when I look at this list, it seems to do that. MR COLLINS: Right. 15 MR KENDERDINE: There maybe one or two others in it, there may be some self-select out of it. MR COLLINS: Right. 20 MR KENDERDINE: And it may be for instance, and I guess this is why the, the intent versus the black and white is always important, which is that maybe that there’s a very high level – six monthly forum for general update - - - 25 MR COLLINS: Right. MR KENDERDINE: - - - versus what will probably be monthly. 30 MR COLLINS: I was going to say, the first thing that caught my eye actually, Mr Kenderdine, was that at least one meeting every three months and I thought, “Well, my notion of what this reference group might do”, as I described, something to do with managing effects, one would be wanting to meet rather more frequently to begin with, (A) to learn up 35 and school up about it and (B) just to make sure we are starting to move in the right direction, in the right way - - - MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 40 MR COLLINS: - - - and after a while, one might expect for people to say, “Look, we don’t need to meet so frequently, but if you meet on a as needs basis”, is that the way you see it, I mean - - - MR KENDERDINE: And that - - - 45 MR COLLINS: - - - that could decide for itself, could it not? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7339 MR KENDERDINE: And that tends to be what happens, so that you – I mean, I would fully expect to be meeting more frequently at the start and then, not later on. 5 MR COLLINS: Right. MR KENDERDINE: I think the black and white is there as a baseline and what the baseline does, is it takes out, for instance on one of my 10 projects where the community – one member of the community forum was more than happy to meet every second night, and you’ve got to be able to fall back on something and say, “Well actually, would you” - - - MR COLLINS: I hear what you are saying, it struck me that once – starting 15 off with a baseline of once every three months perhaps sent the slightly wrong implicit message about what this was about. MR KENDERDINE: I can categorically state that it would be more than once every three months, probably for the first nine, so. 20 MR COLLINS: Yes. I would have thought so, I mean if it serves a useful purpose then in fact it is going to be doing more business during that time, is it not? 25 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR COLLINS: Now can I – just looking at, what it has got here for “purposes” on the DC6, you made it, what I thought was an interesting point earlier on today and one with which I am pretty familiar on, on 30 other projects and, if you look on number 1, “Provide a regular forum to inform the community of the construction progress” and I have no question that that is very important, but it seems to be what is equally important is, that it provides a mechanism for information flow the other way - - - 35 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR COLLINS: - - - so your Clyde Key School says, you know, “We want to run a cross country” or we have got science classes that we want to do 40 this etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, so it is actually really important and I am just wondering whether you think it is important in the conditions to actually recognise that that information – it is not just about dispatching information, it is about an exchange of information. 45 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and I guess that’s how I read this, but to be fair it doesn’t put it as black and white as that, so which would be the same Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7340 phrase almost a regular forum to inform the constructor of the communities effects. MR COLLINS: Right, okay. 5 MR CAMERON: I think number 2 may assist in that respect, I - - - MR COLLINS: Well it – it is not necessarily just about responding to things, it is about being a bit more proactive than that I think – but that is all 10 right, I just want to check your understanding. MR CAMERON: Well no sorry, sir, I’m agreeing with you - - - CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you could just add “and exchange information” after 15 progress. MR CAMERON: Yes. MR COLLINS: Yes, right. 20 MR CAMERON: Yes, I agree with the – I agree with the point entirely. MR COLLINS: Right, okay. Coming to – I mean 3 is actually important, I have no wish to change it, but it seems to me 3 is essentially about 25 building trust between the various parties, is it not, that is what it is about. MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 30 MR COLLINS: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. MR COLLINS: And that’s important to mind - - - 35 MR KENDERDINE: We got to be able to seen to do a little a walking and the same talking. MR COLLINS: You have function well it has got to be - - - 40 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: Yes. 4 though, is one why I raise another question, because it seems to me that, if we – if one of its primary functions is to help 45 manage as effectively as possible from all parties perspectives, the management of effects as we go through, then it is not just about Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7341 receiving monitoring information and monitoring results, it is actually about saying, “And what do they tell us and do we need to do it – does anything needs to change”. 5 MR KENDERDINE: Right. So it’s a sort of - - - MR COLLINS: You see what I am saying, my point is that somewhere - - - MR KENDERDINE: - - - a review of that as well. 10 MR COLLINS: A review of that and somewhere an accountability thing that says, you know, “Next month we want to see what is different” or what have you. I mean do think it is different. I think it is far less saying, simply provide early information on milestones and monitoring results, 15 comes back to what the function of the group is and while it has not been determined yet, it seems to be an appropriate function if this is a mitigation measure, is that somewhere there is an accountability mechanism that says, “We had this information on monitoring last month, we discussed it and we thought, in one case, ‘no need to do 20 anything different, everything is going along tickety-boo’, or in a another case there have been too many instances when such and such has happened, we need to do something different. And the next month we go back and check. So it does seem to me that it is more than just receiving, it’s actually – there is a function in the group to discuss and 25 decide. Is that a fair observation or not? [4.30 pm] MR KENDERDINE: I think the review function is what I read into that. 30 MR BAINES: Right, okay. MR KENDERDINE: So that’s not there, so that’s definitely right, which is that if we put information up about where we’ve achieved or not 35 achieved in terms of targets, whatever they might be, then I would be expecting to be reviewing that with the forum. MR BAINES: With the forum, right. 40 MR KENDERDINE: Which is, they might say – well, we don’t care about that. MR BAINES: Yes. 45 MR KENDERDINE: And we might be trying for 4.5 satisfaction in pedestrians and cyclists and at 4.3 we don’t think we’re doing well Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7342 enough. Everyone might say – well actually no, that’s okay we don’t really care about that. MR BAINES: Right. 5 MR KENDERDINE: Conversely they might say it is world-ending, and so I expect that review process to occur. MR BAINES: Okay. 10 MR KENDERDINE: The kind of decide the next step bit is where we start getting brave, because of course there’s a whole bunch of certified plans in the back. 15 MR BAINES: Right. MR KENDERDINE: And that’s the black and white if you like versus how we can better inform or what we might do to amend those. 20 MR BAINES: Right. MR KENDERDINE: But if you kind of delegate that side you then sort of end up in the – well whose got voting rights and who hasn’t? And if we all decide here, does that actually change the management plan or not, and 25 that’s a slightly different - - - MR BAINES: Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I have always been told that these management plans are about adaptive management and therefore the plans do evolve from time to time. 30 MR KENDERDINE: Most definitely, yes. MR BAINES: And I am just thinking if we accept that the primary function is to collectively manage effects so that we can get (INDISTINCT 2.14) 35 then, you know, is it appropriate that there be something that says we don’t just receive the information, we discuss it as a group and the group agrees somehow, and I’m not trying to sort of tie things down to black and white but there is - - - 40 MR KENDERDINE: I think there’s definitely a review function and you could say that there’s a recommendation of future action. MR BAINES: Right, yes. 45 MR KENDERDINE: Which may or may not be adopted, but obviously if you’ve got the statutory authority in the same room and you come to Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7343 review your management plans in the sequence set out in here, and this has been repeated with reason over here, then clearly the two should meet. 5 MR BAINES: Should meet, right, okay. Yes, because we are assuming in fact there will be representatives of the consent holder and the consent administrator as part of that aren’t we? MR KENDERDINE: Yes we are. 10 MR BAINES: Although that is not down here at the moment. MR KENDERDINE: That it might not be done. 15 MR BAINES: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: I would definitely assume that on there. MR BAINES: Okay. I’m almost done. Am I right in thinking that at the 20 moment with the community reference group that you run, that essentially the alliance – they come and meet at a certain place and someone takes notes, one of your staff takes notes and whatever admin stuff needs to be done gets done by you guys? 25 MR KENDERDINE: Yes, in principle it’s a little bit different, because the community forum is mandated to the Minister of Culture and Heritage, strictly under the Act. MR BAINES: Okay. 30 MR KENDERDINE: So it’s slightly different from this community reference group. MR BAINES: Okay. 35 MR KENDERDINE: But in principle - - - MR BAINES: Do you have any advice – what would be the appropriate here? 40 MR KENDERDINE: I think, yes, the administration of it we need to do. So we need to take minutes, we need to distribute those. MR BAINES: These things do need a bit of - - - 45 MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7344 MR BAINES: Okay. And I am just wondering, we’ve heard quite a lot about – I think Ms Jones was asking you how can you as their constructor – you know make sure that everyone gets to hear about it, not just the body corporate rep but all the others as well. It seems to be often an 5 assumption that it is up to the consent holder or the constructor to do all the communicating. Is it worth thinking about – no, let me ask you this question, do you get the same sense that the people that come to your reference group up there feel an obligation when the meeting is over to go and inform their members? 10 MR KENDERDINE: My experience would be, yes, actually. MR BAINES: Right. 15 MR KENDERDINE: Locally. And a really good example of that would be Mt Cook Community Group. MR BAINES: Okay. 20 [4.35 pm] MR KENDERDINE: And they seem to be religious – if that’s not the wrong word to use, in terms of the dissemination of information and ensuring that that information goes out. Similarly our experience with the 25 (INDISTINCT 00.12) Valley community council, I think they refer to themselves as were very good at distributing the information if one of them came to one of our meetings, as opposed to us going to their full committee meetings. 30 MR BAINES: Yes. So it would not probably come as a surprise to groups like that if they found that they were operating around a condition that actually did say – there is an obligation on participants to this community reference group to take information back to their organisation, so the onus is not just on the contractor to always be the 35 person that provides information and notification and so on and so forth. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 40 MR BAINES: Right. Okay. I think that’s pretty much me. Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions. MR KENDERDINE: Thank you. 45 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Baines. Mr Collins? Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7345 MR COLLINS: Now I hesitate to raise the crèche again, and I am aware that people are waiting to be heard. But can I ask you, is it the same contractor who is moving the crèche as building the underpass or is it complicated? 5 MR KENDERDINE: It’s all the work that’s happening under the National War Memorial Park project in the broader sense, which is being delivered by the Memorial Park alliance, which is at the top level as NZTA, Downer, Hebb Construction you might be familiar with from 10 Auckland and Tauranga, URS who are a civil designer and Tonkin and Taylor who are more well known for geology but also civil design. MR COLLINS: Okay, and has it been easy? 15 MR KENDERDINE: Has it been easy? We have an extremely competent engineer leading that project, and he’s done a great job. We’ve got the most experienced structural engineer in the country for shifting buildings, Adam Thornton, who has been involved with the Museum on Wheels, Waihi Pump Station, and the Birdcage in Auckland. He’s 20 been involved in all of those. Studio Pacific, Leanne Cox is a very thorough heritage architect. So I don’t think it’s easy, but is it going as well or better than it could, yes. MR COLLINS: I’m sure if I quite – so was it easy or was it a complicated 25 project? Is it a complicated thing to do or is it pretty routine for these people? MR KENDERDINE: Well I guess Adam Thornton has now done it a few times. The guys that are actually operating the levers have just come 30 from doing similar things for the last 12 months in Christchurch. So there’s a degree of commonality about what we’re talking about. MR COLLINS: Okay, good. Now I have got a series of questions for clarification. I will refer to your summary, because it is the more 35 recent document. Firstly, at 3.5 following on from Mr McMahon’s question really. Can you give us some indication of the level of certainty about that approximately 30-months’ period, just for background, it seems to me you put a lot of thought into this and you have had a lot of advice from people who understand what is required 40 and there is a reasonable level of design. But I’m thinking what about bad weather or other complications. So from the point of view of affected people, can you say 30 months, give or take a week, or just give us some indication of the level of certainty. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7346 MR KENDERDINE: Well I guess it’s the same team that says we’re going to deliver the National War Memorial Park on time, and that’s give or take a minute. 5 MR COLLINS: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: So I’m pretty confident that that 30 months is about right. I’d like it to be shorter. It could be 32. 10 MR COLLINS: Okay. So you say confidently within a couple of months either side would be good. MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 15 MR COLLINS: Because there is not quite the incentive with the current project, this is quite unusual in there is an absolute time, a day. MR KENDERDINE: It’s not often your brief includes an Act saying that what you’re doing is going to be open on a certain day. 20 MR COLLINS: Yes, that’s right. So there is not quite that incentive. Okay, you would be on record on here as assuring people it will be no more than months after the 30 months, which is still quite a long time, isn’t it, it’s a big project? 25 MR KENDERDINE: Well it is quite a long time, and that’s why I’d like to think we can get it shorter. There’s not actually – it’s not the biggest project ever but what it is, is for instance the bridge, you just have the sequence so you have the piling, the pile cap, the pier, then you have 30 the bridge form work being built, then the bridge poured in two pours, and just that sequence when you go across the valley it gives us that time. [4.40 pm] 35 So that the level of activity, from a construction point of view isn’t huge I guess, so while it’s a long time it’s not a massive spend per month that means the place is flooded with 600 people. 40 MR COLLINS: But it does mean that it’s not easy to make it shorter because you are doing that same sequences of machinery, people, moving across? MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. And that’s the trick, if we can get that 45 sequence working better then we get time dropping out of the programme. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7347 MR COLLINS: Okay. Now, at 6.3 you referred to the presentation from Ms Booth from the Tasman Gardens Body Corporate. 5 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: Now, something else you mentioned was that they were quite conscious that after the disruption they are going to have a nice quiet park outside. Now, that suggests to me that that would make them 10 more tolerant and easier to deal with than the people you may be dealing with this time, you would agree with that? MR KENDERDINE: I would probably concur with that. I mean I think Ms Booth was generous in her phrasing around the challenges versus 15 the trade-off. MR COLLINS: Right, so it just makes it a complicated project when the people affected are a lot of them are submitters and they are not going to be saying, “It’s okay because it is going to be a nice bridge when it is 20 finished”. MR KENDERDINE: As I mentioned I have got quite an experience building prisons and you can be sure that a lot of the people that we start with have, again with good reason not only for the construction but the 25 operations, a great deal of concern. MR COLLINS: Yes. You mentioned the Otago one and I was up the front for that one and, as I recall, I think a lot of the people’s concerns might have been allayed somewhat through the course of the hearing to hear 30 about, from the corrections people, about what happens with prisons and so on. But still there is no comparison, is there, with even the level of opposition and the situation there of it being slightly out of the town to this situation here where it is a major project right close to people living and working? So I am not trying to undermine your experience 35 in that one but there is no comparison. MR KENDERDINE: Oh, yes, well, I mean there is four people 10 metres away, definitely, yes. 40 MR COLLINS: Yes, absolutely. Okay, just moving on then. Now, can I just turn to your Kenderdine 1, which is the supplementary where you produced this very useful table. Now, this is fantastic and it is a pity this wasn’t available to people as part of the application because, as far as I know, I haven’t found anything like this in the documentation up to 45 now which really tells people, “Here’s the number of nights expected for different kinds of activity”, it must be very useful. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7348 Now, again I want to ask about that level of confidence in this. I think you partly answered the question, presumably it’s the same as the level of confidence in the total programme. You know how many piles there 5 are to make so you know how many nights it is going to take, so going through all those, the piling, that’s a pretty exact number, you are quite confident of that. The false-work, much the same, reasonably confident. 10 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR COLLINS: The bridge deck, that might be more variable, do you think, depending how much you get done during the day, no, or has it always been there? 15 MR KENDERDINE: No, the concrete pours for the bridge deck are one of the more challenging ones because they have to - - - MR COLLINS: Have to be continuous. 20 MR KENDERDINE: They have to be continuous for the span because of the tensioning structure. MR COLLINS: Right, yes. 25 MR KENDERDINE: So if it is 15 we have got problems, if that makes any sense. MR COLLINS: Yes. 30 MR KENDERDINE: So there will be a lot of focus on making sure it is only 14 MR COLLINS: So let’s say that’s exact as well and then the service 35 relocations, perhaps that’s more variable? [4.45 pm] MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, we have – I mean we’ve taken quite a big 40 figure both for that and the traffic relocations, because of the fact that if we alter the intersection, as we did three nights ago for – on Taranaki Street, that’s one of those nights. It was three vans and about six blocks until about 10.30, but strictly speaking it’s one of these. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7349 So these ones – while there is some intensity in them, and let’s be very clear, milling an asphalt paving is intensive, within this there’s also quite a lot of less intensity activities. 5 So similarly with the services that may actually be a relatively small number of people and equipment and one relatively confined trench that we're talking about, as opposed to the concrete pores, which is mobile light towers, 40 metres of bridge deck – no, 20 metres of bridge deck and concrete pumps running for a long time. 10 MR COLLINS: A long time, okay, so the two – the last two items which have by far the largest number of estimated nights, the two that are more variable – it could be less, could be more - - - 15 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: - - - but they are the more variable ones, so adding it up, it is about 180 nights roughly overall, and you say plus or minus, you know, 30 either way or that sort of order? 20 MR KENDERDINE: That sort of order off the top of my head. MR COLLINS: And of course these affect different areas, they are not all at the east end which is the more sensitive end. 25 MR KENDERDINE: Correct. MR COLLINS: And now, we do not have anything similar for the total – this is the night-time thing – but there is also – some of these activities take 30 – well they all – most of them take place in the daytime as well - - - MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: - - - I do not question really, I am just sort of saying, it would 35 be very helpful to ask it and to affected people to have this sort of table outlining what are the noisy activities – no sorry, we know that from the noise evidence – it is the duration the days or hours - - - MR KENDERDINE: Right. 40 MR COLLINS: - - - to be affected - - - MR KENDERDINE: Yes. So - - - 45 MR COLLINS: the idea. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7350 MR KENDERDINE: Yes. MR COLLINS: Okay, and finally, your final conclusion in your summary, seem to be a fairly bold assertion that it could be constructed without 5 any significant adverse effects, but I think what you are really saying, is given what you understand about – you know a good understanding of what is involved and the sort of mechanisms you set up for mitigation and consultation and so on that – what, it will be people be happy or whether it will be acceptable or it is the best you can do or – it is just 10 that I am having trouble saying – I mean, your evidence is not that, there will be no significant effects, there is going to be some significant adverse effects all right. MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I guess - - - 15 MR COLLINS: But what, what’s your - - - MR KENDERDINE: - - - and so possibly run it, rather than a planner’s view in terms of effects, with a (INDISTINCT 3.31). 20 MR COLLINS: Yes. MR KENDERDINE: And I think that’s probably a fair point. I think the – I’m confident that we can work through the really big issues and that people 25 will have confidence in the process. There will be a bumpy road to get to that point and it will take a lot of work, but I think, you know, some key receivers like schools, I’m confident that we can make them actually feel reasonably positive about the experience. 30 MR COLLINS: Okay. MR KENDERDINE: So. MR COLLINS: Thank you. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Bain. Mr Kenderdine, thank you very much for your assistance, I have no questions. MR KENDERDINE: Thank you, your Honour. 40 CHAIRPERSON: We do appreciate you coming and taking of your time and it has been most helpful, thank you. MR KENDERDINE: Thank you. 45 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7351 MR CAMERON: Sir, there’s one matter that I don’t think I need to ask Mr Kenderdine, but for the record, an inquiry has been made and Tasman Gardens is not double glazed, so I just thought that should be put into 5 the record in the context of the discussion I was having with him this morning. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now we have two submitters, we have got Ms – a Mrs Halakas, is she here? There you are, yes, but how long are you 10 likely to be? MS HALAKAS: Not long, just three pages of - - - [4.50 pm] 15 CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we do not want to make you hurry and we have also got Mr Barnett. How long are you likely to be Mr Barnett? MR BARNETT: Yes, sir, 30 minutes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you for that, well Ms Halakas we will hear you now and perhaps if we put you on first thing in the morning Mr Barnett. Thank you very indeed, we are sorry to have kept you waiting. Yes, Mrs Halakas? 25 MS HALAKAS: Can I speak from here? CHAIRPERSON: You can speak from there, yes you may indeed, yes certainly. Just before you speak if you could just say your full name 30 for the record? MS HALAKAS: Okay, do you want copies? CHAIRPERSON: That would be wonderful if you have copies, yes, thank 35 you. You read the inquiry procedures obviously, thank you for that, not many do. MR CAMERON: Ms Halakas is having her material distributed for the sake of clarification. Mr Kenderdine is still possibly required to come back 40 on Friday concerning the earthworks issue should that still be a matter to be explored. Can he be released please from the constraints relevant to a person who is under cross-examination? Can he be excused effectively, but none the less be recalled if required? 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7352 MR CAMERON: As your Honour pleases. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 5 MS HALAKAS: Shall I start? CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may start Ms Halakas. MS HALAKAS: All right, I am Irene, and I am grateful for the opportunity to 10 express the views of my family and myself at this hearing. We have a close association with the Basin Reserve area. My association dates back to the mid-1950s when 21 Ellice Street was our family home. I, my daughter and grandchildren have attended the schools in Mount 15 Victoria, the youngest is still at St Marks. Although we are not living there at present we have a bathroom workshop at the house which we use quite often. My grandchildren often go there to change from their school uniform after school. We love living there and enjoyed the sun, the view, the open space, the greenness of the Basin Reserve and the 20 convenience of walking to the city. We had always planned to return to Ellice Street when we got older which was about, we are getting older now so our daughter would also love to move back with her family. There is enough land at the back 25 for my son in law who is a builder to build another house. The Basin is a lovely iconic area surrounded by residential accommodation, schools, churches and Government House. The students congregate before and after school, parents wait to meet their 30 children. We are looking at displacing the people and replacing the area with hunks of concrete. I do not know another area with so many schools, churches, a park and a view of the Carillion in such close proximity. 35 I always enjoyed hearing the sound in the Carillion, the area truly is a hub. In my view the design of the Basin Bridge is a very poor solution that will cause a lot more harm than any improvement that it might make. It will destroy the valuable picturesque part of the city by severely changing the landscape. It will be intrusive, obstructive, it 40 will fragment the area while making perceived improvements we cannot ignore and destroy what already exists there. Not enough consideration was given to the negative impact on the whole area in the design of the Basin Bridge, an alternative design 45 should be proposed with a more sensitive approach that will not spoil Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7353 the area and will be less invasive. The adverse effects on our houses will be permanent and of a great magnitude. [4.55 pm[ 5 The proximity of the cycleway seven metres as it stands as I understood it, if it is any further that would be an improvement, seven metres from our boundary would be right in our face. It will make it claustrophobic living there. Our properties will be isolated we will lose three hours of 10 sunlight in the summer time. There be extra noise from the cycleway and there will be two way traffic. At the moment the traffic only goes one way. There will be increased traffic volumes diverted closer to our properties. It will create dark 15 areas ideal for criminal behaviour or at the very least mischievous behaviour, loss of income. There will be long term negative effects on our rentals. The area will become undesirable and consequently so will our houses. They will be hard to rent after the bridge construction works have been completed and the new bridge is in place within seven 20 metres of our boundary. Our properties are our main source of income. They have always been rented. The area at present is a very desirable area to live in. Our tenants have stayed a minimum of three years and we have had tenants 25 12 to 18 years. Loss of value to the properties, people do not want to be under shaded cold concrete structure for any activity, let alone live there. Our houses will only be suitable for car parking as there will be a great shortage of parking. 30 It has come to my attention the Northern Gateway Building is a very large structure which will also spoil Kent and Cambridge Terrace. This is a much bigger building than is already there. The present buildings blend in nicely and are not intrusive. 35 The planting of the Pōhutukawa trees in close proximity to the houses is also an area of concern. The Pōhutukawa although a beautiful tree grows very big and causes shading and can cause slime below. The flowers cause a mess that will require a lot of attention. There is already very little space between the bridge and our houses. The 40 developers need to realise that an enhanced environmental setting is not achieved through significant additional landscaping. Landscaping does not cure the ugliness of a concrete structure so close to houses, schools and churches obscuring light, sun, views, lack of 45 privacy and causing extra noise and pollution. If the proposal is Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7354 accepted I would like the Board to remove the separated pedestrian bridge from the design and connect it to the main bridge. It was never in any previous plans. This was an afterthought that gave 5 very little consideration to what already exists there. Bridges can look lovely crossing over water they were never supposed to be flying over houses, churches and schools. The hearing process has been very challenging. It has come at a great 10 cost to us in time, stress and financial loss having to hire lawyers, a planner, doing valuations on our properties. We feel very strongly about this situation. We feel our personal loss will be immense. We trust that our opposition will be taken into consideration. 15 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I can assure it can Ms Halakas and thank you very much for your submission and your representation. MS HALAKAS: Thank you for hearing me. 20 CHAIRPERSON: It has been well put together and you have obviously spent a lot of time preparing it so thank you. MS HALAKAS: Thank you. 25 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming. Has anyone got any questions? MR COLLINS: Just to clarify I think did you own 21 and 23? MS HALAKAS: Yes. 30 MR COLLINS: Thank you. MS HALAKAS: But 21 was our family home. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much indeed. MS HALAKAS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn but just before we adjourn Mr Cameron 40 we note from the draft conditions of consent that the planning witnesses in their caucusing have all reached agreement with the exception of one planning- - - Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7355 [5.00 pm] MR CAMERON: Participant. 5 CHAIRPERSON: Participant, yes. How are you proposing and who, and I think Mr Bennion is, she is Mr Bennion’s witness, is that right? MR CAMERON: I am not sure she is. I think she’s independent. 10 CHAIRPERSON: She’s independent, yes. MR CAMERON: Ms Warren. CHAIRPERSON: Ms Warren, that is right, yes. 15 MR CAMERON: Who, of course, is not a planner, but has been permitted to participate in the caucusing and I have been turning over in my mind on that basis, while she’s made a contribution to the process, of course, given that she is not a planner, how it affects, and can affect, the 20 outcome otherwise agreed between all qualified planners who have attended – in other words, the experts. CHAIRPERSON: Well, yes, well- - - 25 MR CAMERON: I am sorry, sir, that was where my mind was taking me. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, I didn’t understand she was not a planner, but she could participate in it, in any event, in the caucusing- - - 30 MR CAMERON: She did. CHAIRPERSON: So we cannot just ignore the fact that she did and that she has got views contrary to what everyone else in the caucus appears to have – a number of issues. We do not need a full planning- - - 35 MR CAMERON: Hot tub. CHAIRPERSON: Hot tub, because everyone agrees except one, and I was thinking if, it depends on whether anyone wishes to cross-examine, 40 whether you want to leave it to submissions. If there is going to be a cross-examination, I would suggest that just two people participate – namely the NZTA planner and Ms Warren. MR CAMERON: Yes, sir, I will turn my mind, I will come to a view on that 45 overnight. Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7356 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: And inform the Board tomorrow morning of whether or not I wish to cross-examine her- - - 5 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR CAMERON: In the circumstances as I have just outlined them to you. 10 CHAIRPERSON: And she cannot cross-examine Mr Daysh. MR CAMERON: No, she can’t. But I’m, in other words, given that she is not a planner and an expert, per se, and she may or may not accept that – knowing her a little, I imagine she probably would in terms of 15 qualifications, but not in terms of expertise. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. What does she do? MR CAMERON: She’s a senior policy adviser to the Minister of Conservation, 20 and has been with the Department of Conservation for, since 1987. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well she may have some planning knowledge as a consequence of her experience, yes. 25 MR CAMERON: I know her- - - CHAIRPERSON: You do not have to be- - - MR CAMERON: I think it would be fair to say she certainly has worked 30 around planners for many years, but is not a planner- - - CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you do not have to necessarily have the qualifications to be able to participate as an expert on a matter. 35 MR CAMERON: I didn’t object to her participation. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I agree, I understand that. MR CAMERON: And I really did take the point very early in the process in 40 respect of that issue in relation to a number of people. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR CAMERON: However, given the way in which this has developed, and 45 the position that she has assumed in relation to all others, it does throw Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7357 the matter into somewhat stark relief, and I now have to turn my mind to how to deal with that. CHAIRPERSON: You do indeed, yet another matter. 5 MR CAMERON: I actually have to say I think that is right, that has been my provisional view- - - CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what I said, the way you have got to deal with 10 it is either by way of submission or by way of- - - MR CAMERON: Cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination. 15 MR CAMERON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: And- - - 20 MR CAMERON: I was encouraged on the noise issue here to think about in a submission- - - CHAIRPERSON: And I think if you were going to cross-examine her it would be appropriate for Mr Daysh to be on the stand so as he could make 25 answers to any questions or reply to any questions, or add to any, sorry, any answer that she may give. MR CAMERON: Yes, it’s unfortunate that Ms Taylor isn’t also available, of course, but I think- - - 30 CHAIRPERSON: Ms Taylor? MR CAMERON: The Board’s planner. 35 CHAIRPERSON: Has she got some extra, some other ideas as well? MR CAMERON: No, sir, no, no. sorry, I was just thinking the balance, it may have been desirable that she also be there, but she cannot be there. 40 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, of course, she has got other difficulties. MR CAMERON: She has got other difficulties, so I was just making an observation. I’ll think about it overnight, sir, and confirm the approach. But I am provisionally of the view, in other words I will take 45 instructions that will deal with that issue by submission, but I am really Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14 Page 7358 playing around with how I am going to deal with the noise issue – that’s troubling me. [5.05 pm] 5 CHAIRPERSON: Well you discuss that with Mr Daysh and sort something out. MR CAMERON: Thank you, sir. 10 MATTER ADJOURNED AT 5.05 PM UNTIL THURSDAY, 22 MAY 2014 Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14