Jimmie Durham's Manhattan Life

Galerie Barbara Wien Schöneberger Ufer 65 10785 Berlin www.barbarawien.de

Paulina Pobocha in conversation with Jimmie Durham, Jimmie Durham’s Manhattan Life, MoMA Magazine, January 4, 2021 https://www.moma.org/magazine/articles/482#authors-tags

Magazine

Jimmie Durham’s Manhattan Life

Curator Paulina Pobocha talks to the artist about poetry, activism, and his uncanny knack for ﬁnding dead things. Paulina Pobocha Jan 4, 2021

It’s unclear if the dead follow artist Jimmie Durham or if he seeks them out. Whether it’s a taxidermied moose head found behind a church or human bones discovered in the dumpster of Columbia’s medical school, the artist always seems to breathe new life into found materials through his assemblage works. Curator Paulina Pobocha spoke virtually with Durham about his poetry and the meaning embedded in his works, currently on view in the second-ﬂoor collection galleries.

Paulina Pobocha: Can you please introduce yourself and your work, Cathedral of St. John the Divine?

Jimmie Durham: I’m foremost a poet, and then I’m a sculptor and an artist, and I do other things. I’m a gardener, quite serious about it. The two works that I’d like to talk about are a work I did in Manhattan years ago, which I’ll call by its short title, The Cathedral of St. John, or sometimes it’s called the Bishop’s Moose, but it has a long text title about the cathedral and where it is in Manhattan. The other work is about anti-art as presented by a Shakespeare character named Caliban. These are mostly drawings from the point of view of someone who made self-portraits without knowing what he looked like.

Would you tell us about the subject matter of The Cathedral of St. John and also the signiﬁcance of the title? And since the title is quite long, I’ll just read it right now: The Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan is the World’s Largest Gothic Cathedral. Except, of course, that it is a fake; ﬁrst by the simple fact of being built in Manhattan, at the turn of the century. But the stone work is re-inforced with steel which is expanding with rust. Someday it will destroy the stone. The Cathedral is in Morningside Heights overlooking a panoramic view of Harlem which is separated by a high fence. It’s a beautiful title.

Oh, thank you. We lived close by the cathedral in Spanish Harlem, and I knew the two people who worked there. The canon was a good man, and Paul Moore was the bishop of New York. I was there in the garden one day, and I found a moose head that was very old and falling apart. The nose was practically gone, and it was in the garbage, such a massive thing.

I put it on my back and took it home, walking down the street. But I couldn’t get it up the stairs of my apartment, it was so big, so I had to saw one of the antlers off. I didn’t make anything with it until a few years later after I had moved to Mexico. I came back to New York and made it in Sandy Shepherd’s house where I was staying in Harlem.

Jimmie Durham. The Cathedral of St. John.... 1989

I think the titles of your works and how they inﬂect the meaning of the material is really very affecting. Would you speak a little bit about the last line of the title, which is about the separation between the cathedral and Morningside Heights?

It was such a strange thing. There is a beautiful park, Morningside Park, that I had been warned to stay away from because it was so dangerous. And when you are around the grounds or the garden of the cathedral, there is this high fence and behind it is Morningside Park and then all of Harlem stretches down below it. And at the time this cathedral was built, some of the rich people who lived up above the park hired mostly women to cook and clean their houses, and these women lived in Harlem. The rich people hired these women but didn’t want them in their neighborhood, so they built this fence, and it was such a constant insult to pass by and see it. Magazine

Jimmie Durham’s Manhattan Life

Curator Paulina Pobocha talks to the artist about poetry, activism, and his uncanny knack for ﬁnding dead things. Paulina Pobocha Jan 4, 2021

Paulina Pobocha: Can you please introduce yourself and your work, Cathedral of St. John the Divine?

Jimmie Durham. Durham. The Cathedral The ofCathedral St. John.... 1989 of St. John.... 1989 I think the titles of your works and how they inflect the meaning of the material is really very affecting. Would you speak a little bit about the last line of the Ititle, think which theis about titles the separation of your between works the and cathedral how and they Morningside inflect Heights? the meaning of the material is really very affecting. WIt wasould such youa strange speak thing. Therea little is a beautiful bit about park, Morni thengside last Park,line that of I thehad been title, warned which to stay isaway about from because the separation it was so dangerous. between And when the you are cathedralaround the grounds and or theMorningside garden of the cathedral, Heights? there is this high fence and behind it is Morningside Park and then all of Harlem stretches down below it. And at the time this cathedral was built, some of the rich people who lived up above the park hired mostly women to cook and clean their houses, and these women lived in Harlem. The rich people hired these women but didn’t want them in their neighborhood, so they built this fence, and it was such a constant insult to pass by and see Itit. was such a strange thing. There is a beautiful park, Morningside Park, that I had been warned to stay away fromYou combined because the materials it was inso this dangerous. sculpture with And the moose when skull you and rareeplaced around the antler the with grounds a pipe. But, or also,the thegarden skull itself of isthe painted cathedral, and mounted there on iswhat this looks high like scaffolding,fence and the behind kind you wouldit is Morningsideencounter on a city Park street, andespecially then in aNewll of York Harlem where it’ sstretches basically everywher down e.below Would youit. talkAnd about at how those formal elements play with one another? the time this cathedral was built, some of the rich people who lived up above the park hired mostly women to You’re right. The body of the sculpture is like scaffolding in a certain way or construction work in general. In those days, we made our own apartment because we cooktook over and a building, clean a bunchtheir of houses, Native Americans. and these So I had women to work with lived two-by-fours in Harlem. and construction The rich materials people every hired day rebuilding these this women apartment, but so itdidn’ was justt wantpart of my them daily inlife. their At the sameneighborhood, time, I didn’t want so to theygive the built moose this skull thefence, kind of a bodynd itthat was was likesuch what a theconstant bishop’s father insult had givento pass it. The by bishop’ ands fathersee it.had shot it. I didn’t want it to be trophy-like. I wanted it to have a life but not taxidermy, not fake, but some sort of art life. I don’t know how to describe this life. We have a quote from you that’s in the extended label for the work. This is something you wrote in 1984: “Coyote, who invented death and singing, was the spirit who gave me my name. As is often the case, he also gave me a gift that I would always see whatever was dead if it were within my field of vision. It Ybecameou combined necessary to see the if that materials was a usable in gift this or just sculptur a dirty tricke withthat would the drive moose me crazy skull.” W ouldand you r eplacedspeak a little the bit morantlere about with this r olea ofpipe. the But,Coyote, also, and that the quote, skull and howitself it r elatesis painted to sculptur ande? mounted on what looks like scaffolding, the kind you would encounterI found so many skullson a and city dead str animalseet, inespecially Manhattan. It wasin jNewust astounding. York Forwher example,e it’ onces basically I was walking everywher along in Harleme. when Would I saw a youclosed talk garbage can. I aboutlifted the lid,how and thosethere were formal two complete elements deer skulls play with the with skins inone the garbage another? can, fresh, bloody fresh. No explanation, no nothing, just there. I found a bunch of human bones in the garbage of Columbia’s Medical School. I used one for a work at the New Museum in the show The Interrupted Life, in ’91. I have two sea turtle skulls from the beach just outside of Napoli. Isn’t that strange? Most people don’t find sea turtle skulls on the beach. You’re right. The body of the sculpture is like scaffolding in a certain way or construction work in general. In those days, we made our own apartment because we took over a building, a bunch of Native Americans. So I had to work with two-by-fours and construction materials every day rebuilding this apartment, so it was just part of my daily life. At the same time, I didn’t want to give the moose skull the kind of body that was like what the bishop’s father had given it. The bishop’s father had shot it. I didn’t want it to be trophy-like. I wanted it to have a life but not taxidermy, not fake, but some sort of art life. I don’t know how to describe this life.

We have a quote from you that’s in the extended label for the work. This is something you wrote in 1984: “Coyote, who invented death and singing, was the spirit who gave me my name. As is often the case, he also gave me a gift that I would always see whatever was dead if it were within my ﬁeld of vision. It became necessary to see if that was a usable gift or just a dirty trick that would drive me crazy.” Would you speak a little bit more about this role of the Coyote, and that quote, and how it relates to sculpture?

I found so many skulls and dead animals in Manhattan. It was just astounding. For example, once I was walking along in Harlem when I saw a closed garbage can. I lifted the lid, and there were two complete deer skulls with the skins in the garbage can, fresh, bloody fresh. No explanation, no nothing, just there. I found a bunch of human bones in the garbage of Columbia’s Medical School. I used one for a work at the New Museum in the show The Interrupted Life, in ’91. I have two sea turtle skulls from the beach just outside of Napoli. Isn’t that strange? Most people don’t ﬁnd sea turtle skulls on the beach.

Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992

It certainly is the idea. I always needed it, at least in my own mind, to be acceptable as art, to be acceptable as sculpture and not seen as something weird or exotic. So when I lived in New York, the ﬁrst show I did was a bunch of animal things I had made with found animal skulls in Manhattan. I did the show speciﬁcally because I wanted to show that you could use this kind of stuff and do this kind of art and it would still be art. I wanted to prove to people that this could be done, that what I was trying to do might work. It didn’t work, but I still tried.

It’s interesting thinking about this work, especially, in the context of the 1980s in New York. Neo- Expressionist painting saturated the art market; many other artists were really thinking about commodity, like Jeff Koons. Your work is entirely separate from that but also became so extraordinarily inﬂuential to a younger generation. I could name so many artists who were looking at your work and thinking about assemblage techniques, something that was very different from the type of painting that was on the scene and much of sculpture that was being made. Can you remember how that felt?

It felt like a desperate time because we were also broke. Maria Thereza and I were constantly broke and ﬁnding jobs; barely getting enough money to do anything, much less make art. She was at the Cooper Union Art School at the time, and I went around to all the different art schools’ garbage to ﬁnd stretched canvases. You could paint over them. So I made quite a few bad paintings and sold them as a way to make some money in those days.

But I knew that there was something strange about painting. It’s too tight, it’s too numb. There are no surprises. A painting is a painting no matter what the painter does to it. I like a lot of painters, dead and living, but it is still too tight. It’s too small for what we need from art now. You combined the materials in this sculpture with the moose skull and replaced the antler with a pipe. But, also, the skull itself is painted and mounted on what looks like scaffolding, the kind you would encounter on a city street, especially in New York where it’s basically everywhere. Would you talk about how those formal elements play with one another?

You’re right. The body of the sculpture is like scaffolding in a certain way or construction work in general. In those days, we made our own apartment because we took over a building, a bunch of Native Americans. So I had to work with two-by-fours and construction materials every day rebuilding this apartment, so it was just part of my daily life. At the same time, I didn’t want to give the moose skull the kind of body that was like what the bishop’s father had given it. The bishop’s father had shot it. I didn’t want it to be trophy-like. I wanted it to have a life but not taxidermy, not fake, but some sort of art life. I don’t know how to describe this life.

JimmieYou combined Durham. the A materialssheet from in Caliban this sculptur Codex.e 1992 with the moose skull and replaced the antler with a pipe. But, also, the skull itself is painted and mounted on what looks like scaffolding, the kind you would Skullsencounter and onanimal a city r emainsstreet, especially feature so in pr Newominently York wher in youre it’ works basically and have everywher throughoute. Would your you car talkeer. Is it becauseabout how you those are, formalon some elements level, looking play with for them?one another? How do you think about the idea of resuscitating them, giving them a second life? You’re right. The body of the sculpture is like scaffolding in a certain way or construction work in general. In Itthose certainly days, iswe the made idea. our I always own apartment needed it, because at least wein mytook ow overn mind, a building, to be acceptable a bunch of as Native art, to Americans. be acceptable So I ashad sculpture to work andwith not two-by-fours seen as something and construction weird or exotic.materials So ever wheyn dayI lived rebuilding in New thisYork, apartment, the ﬁrst show so it wasI did just was apart bunch of my of dailyanimal life. things At the I had same made time, with I didn’ foundt want animal to giveskulls the in moose Manhattan. skull theI did kind the ofshow body speciﬁcally that was like becausewhat the I bishop’ wanteds tofather show had that given you it.could The use bishop’ this kinds father of stufhadf shotand it.do Ithis didn’ kindt want of art it toand be it trophy-like. would still beI art. Iwanted wanted it toto provehave ato life people but not that taxidermy this could, notbe done,fake, butthat some what sortI was of trying art life. to Ido don’ mightt know work. how It todidn’ describet work, butthis Ilife. still tried.

It’Wes haveinter estinga quote thinking from you about that’ thiss in work, the extended especially label, in forthe thecontext work. of Thisthe 1980s is something in New Yyouork. wr Neo-ote in Expr1984:essionist “Coyote, painting who invented saturated death the and art singing,market; was many the other spirit artists who gave wer eme really my name.thinking As about is often the commoditycase, he also, likegave Jeff me Koons. a gift that Your I wouldwork isalways entirely see separate whatever fr womas thatdead but if it also wer becamee within so my field of extraordinarilyvision. It became influential necessary to to a see younger if that generation. was a usable I couldgift or nam juste a so dirty many trick artists that who would wer drivee looking me at yourcrazy work.” Would and youthinking speak about a little assemblage bit more about techniques, this role something of the Coyote, that was and very that differquote,ent and fr omhow the it type ofrelates painting to sculptur that wase? on the scene and much of sculpture that was being made. Can you remember how that felt? I found so many skulls and dead animals in Manhattan. It was just astounding. For example, once I was Itwalking felt like along a desperate in Harlem time when because I saw we a closedwere also garbage broke. can. Maria I lift Therezaed the lid, and and I were there constantly were two brokecomplete and deer findingskulls with jobs; the barely skins getting in the garbageenough moneycan, fresh, to do bloody anything, fresh. much No explanation, less make art. no She nothing, was at just the there. Cooper I found Union a Artbunch School of human at the bones time, andin the I wentgarbage around of Columbia’ to all the sdif Medicalferent art School. schools’ I used garbage one forto finda work stretched at the Newcanvases. YMuseumou could in paint the show over Thethem. Interrupted So I made Life quite, in a ’91.few Ibad have paintings two sea a turtlend sold skulls them from as a theway beach to make just someoutside money of inNapoli. those Isn’days.t that strange? Most people don’t find sea turtle skulls on the beach. But I knew that there was something strange about painting. It’s too tight, it’s too numb. There are no Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992 surprises.Jimmie Durham. A painting A sheet is a paintingfrom Caliban no matter Codex what. 1992 the painter does to it. I like a lot of painters, dead and Skulls and animal remains feature so prominently in your work and have throughout your career. Is it because you are, on some level, looking for them? Howliving, do you but think it aboutis still the tooidea oftight. resuscitating It’s too them, small giving for them what a second we life? need from art now. Skulls and animal remains feature so prominently in your work and have throughout your career. Is it It certainly is the idea. I always needed it, at least in my own mind, to be acceptable as art, to be acceptable as sculpture and not seen as something weird or exotic. So whenbecause I lived in you New arYork,e, theon first some show Ilevel, did was lookinga bunch of animal for them?things I had How made withdo foundyou animal think skulls about in Manhattan. the idea I did theof showresuscitating specifically because I wantedthem, to showgiving that youthem could a use second this kind oflife? stuff and do this kind of art and it would still be art. I wanted to prove to people that this could be done, that what I was trying to do might work. It didn’t work, but I still tried. It’Its certainlyinteresting thinking is the about idea. this I work,always especially needed, in the it, context at least of the in 1980s my in ow Newn Y mind,ork. Neo-Expr to beessionist acceptable painting assaturated art, to the be art acceptablemarket; many other artists were really thinking about commodity, like Jeff Koons. Your work is entirely separate from that but also became so extraordinarily influential toas a youngersculpture generation. and not I could seen name as so something many artists who weird were lookingor exotic. at your So work whe andn thinking I lived about in assemblageNew York, techniques the first, something show that I did was wasvery differa bunchent from of the animal type of painting things that I had was onmade the scene with and found much of animalsculpture skullsthat was beingin Manhattan. made. Can you I rdidemember the howshow that specifically felt?

Itbecause felt like a desperate I wanted time becauseto show we werethat also you broke. could Maria useThereza this and kind I were ofconstantly stuff brokeand anddo findingthis kindjobs; barely of art getting and enough it would money tostill do anything, be art. muchI wanted less make to art. prove She was to at peoplethe Cooper that Union this Art School could at tbehe time, done, and Ithat went aroundwhat to I allwas the diftryingferent art to schools’ do might garbage work. to find stretched It didn’ canvases.t work, You couldbut paintI still over tried. them. So I made quite a few bad paintings and sold them as a way to make some money in those days. But I knew that there was something strange about painting. It’s too tight, it’s too numb. There are no surprises. A painting is a painting no matter what the painter doesIt’s to inter it. I likeesting a lot of painters,thinking dead andabout living, thisbut it iwork,s still too tight.especially It’s too small, in for the what context we need from of art the now 1980s. in New York. Neo- IfExpr you doessionist something seriously painting with art, saturated and you look atthe what art society market; is doing, and many what you’re other doing, artists and try werto matche r whateally you’re thinking doing to society about, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So it’s not that I was looking at dead animals. It’s that society had all of these dead animals. And such a strange Disneylandcommodity idea of, animals,like Jeff dead orKoons. living. Your work is entirely separate from that but also became so extraordinarily influential to a younger generation. I could name so many artists who were looking at Iyour think that work a lot ofand your thinking work is, in fact, about quite political.assemblage How do yourtechniques, politics inflect something the type of work that that youwas make? very different from the type Iof do thinkpainting I’m always that a political was activist.on the I write scene poetry and politically much as an of activist. sculptur I make arte thatas a political was activist.being W made.e have the Canidea that you a political remember activist has howto protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, isn’thatt it? felt?It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about human liberation. It felt like a desperate time because we were also broke. Maria Thereza and I were constantly broke and finding jobs; barely getting enough money to do anything, much less make art. She was at the Cooper Union Art School at the time, and I went around to all the different art schools’ garbage to find stretched canvases. You could paint over them. So I made quite a few bad paintings and sold them as a way to make some money in those days.

Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992

Skulls and animal remains feature so prominently in your work and have throughout your career. Is it because you are, on some level, looking for them? How do you think about the idea of resuscitating them, giving them a second life? If you do something seriously with art, and you look at what society is doing, and what you’re doing, and try to match what you’re doing to society, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So It certainly is the idea. I always needed it, at least in my own mind, to be acceptable as art, to be acceptable it’s not that I was looking at dead animals. It’s that society had all of these dead animals. And such a strange as sculpture and not seen as something weird or exotic. So when I lived in New York, the first show I did was Disneyland idea of animals, dead or living. a bunch of animal things I had made with found animal skulls in Manhattan. I did the show specifically because I wanted to show that you could use this kind of stuff and do this kind of art and it would still be art. I think that a lot of your work is, in fact, quite political. How do your politics inflect the type of work I wanted to prove to people that this could be done, that what I was trying to do might work. It didn’t work, that you make? but I still tried. I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political It’s interesting thinking about this work, especially, in the context of the 1980s in New York. Neo- activist. We have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I Expressionist painting saturated the art market; many other artists were really thinking about write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, commodity, like Jeff Koons. Your work is entirely separate from that but also became so isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not extraordinarily influential to a younger generation. I could name so many artists who were looking at political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about your work and thinking about assemblage techniques, something that was very different from the type human liberation. of painting that was on the scene and much of sculpture that was being made. Can you remember how that felt? Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992 It felt like a desperate time because we were also broke. Maria Thereza and I were constantly broke and finding jobs; barely getting enough money to do anything, much less make art. She was at the Cooper Union There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political Art School at the time, and I went around to all the different art schools’ garbage to find stretched canvases. activism in a more literal sense with the American Indian Movement. You could paint over them. So I made quite a few bad paintings and sold them as a way to make some money in those days. When Wounded Knee happened in ’73, I stopped everything and came back to the US; before that, I had not intended to come back. I was happy in Geneva, I was happy in Europe. But I had to respond one way or IfBut you I knew do something that there seriously was something with art, strange and you about look painting. at what It’societys too tight,is doing, it’s tooand numb.what you’re There doing,are no and try another to this strangeness, and I think the problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond tosurprises. match what A painting you’re isdoing a painting to society no matter, it helps what your the seriousness, painter does it tohelps it. I mylike seriousness a lot of painters, about deadmaki andng art. So to things, what to do in life, nobody knows. I certainly don’t know. it’living,s not butthat it I iswas still looking too tight. at dead It’s too animals. small It’fors whatthat society we need had from all ofart these now. dead animals. And such a strange DisneylandIf you do something idea of animals, seriously dead with or art, living. and you look at what society is doing, and what you’re doing, and try Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking to match what you’re doing to society, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So moment for me and it’s the center image in Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad Iit’ thinks not thatthat I awas lot lookingof your atwork dead is, animals. in fact, It’quites that political. society had How all do of yourthese politics dead animals. inflect Andthe typesuch ofa straworknge things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself thatDisneyland you make? idea of animals, dead or living. in the bad column. That, to me, really takes your breath away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when you’re reading those lists and you find his name. I dothink think that I’m a alwayslot of your a political work is,activist. in fact, I write quite poetry political. poli ticallyHow do as youran activist. politics I makeinflect art the as typea political of work activist.that you W make?e have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I It is just there in my life all the time. Most Hopi Indians are Mormons now. And I’m not sure if it’s still true, but it was true in the ’70s, the Mormon religion said if you really love God and follow the Mormon rules, write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, If you do something seriously with art, and you look at what society is doing, and what you’re doing, and try I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political you will become whiter. Many Hopis committed suicide. Many Indians, in general, still commit suicide. But isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not to match what you’re doing to society, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So activist. We have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I this kind of nasty racism is so heavy in the US. It’s heavy for everyone. Many white people think it’s heavy political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about it’s not that I was looking at dead animals. It’s that society had all of these dead animals. And such a strange write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, for the rest of us, but it’s heavy for everybody. human liberation. Disneyland idea of animals, dead or living. isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about I think that a lot of your work is, in fact, quite political. How do your politics inflect the type of work Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992 element to any understanding of your work. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry human liberation. that you make? and visual art? There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political activismJimmie Durham. in a mor Ae sheetliteral from sense Caliban with the Codex American. 1992 Indian Movement. I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a activist. We have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I couple of drawings, they only work with the words on them. Without the words, they don’t work. Without write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, WhenThere Wwasounded a time Knee that happened you returned in ’73, to I thestopped United everything States fr andom cameGeneva bac tok toactually the US; practice before that, political I had not the paint, it wouldn’t work, either. intendedactivism toin comea mor back.e literal I was sense happy with in theGeneva, American I was Indianhappy in Movement. Europe. But I had to respond one way or isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not another to this strangeness, and I think the problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond Butpolitical. a friend It’s here just innothing. Berlin, So a composerI learned ,from was Freiretalking and and from I said, many “If youother said pe oplethat musicthat our had activism an essenc is aboute, what toWhen things, Wounded what to Knee do in happened life, nobody in ’73, knows. I stopped I certainly everything don’t knowand came. back to the US; before that, I had not wouldhuman itliberation. be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you intended to come back. I was happy in Geneva, I was happy in Europe. But I had to respond one way or would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a Calibananother to Codex, this strangeness, which is a andseries I think of pseudo the problem diary entries,is still there. is very It gets moving. worse, Ther not e’betters this. But heartbr how eakingto respond paintingJimmie Durham. and it is music.”A sheet fromAnd ICaliban loved that Codex idea. because,1992 well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought momentto things, forwhat me to and do init’ life,s the nobody center knows.image inI certainly Caliban don’Codext know wher. e you have a list of good and bad of it for music. things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking in the bad column. That, to me, really takes your breath away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when Iactivism would be in curiousa more literalto know sense a little with bit the mor Americane about yourIndian pr ocessMovement. as a writer. Writing, of course, isn’t you’rmomente reading for me those and it’ listss the and center you findimage his in name. Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad easy. Do you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself sculpturWhen Woundede, there Kneeis text happened often included in ’73, Iin stopped your work. everything How doesand came the text bac kmatch to the up US; with before the that,image, I had how not Itin isthe just bad there column. in my That,life all to the me, time. really Most takes Hopi your Indians breath are awayMormons. It’s nowlike. aAnd punch I’m innot the sure stomach if it’s still when true, dointended they inform to come each back. other? I was happy in Geneva, I was happy in Europe. But I had to respond one way or butyou’r it ewas reading true in those the ’70s, lists theand Mormon you find religion his name. said if you really love God and follow the Mormon rules, another to this strangeness, and I think the problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond you will become whiter. Many Hopis committed suicide. Many Indians, in general, still commit suicide. But Ito really things, do what not know to do. inI don’ life,t nobodydo any planningknows. I ofcertainly text, except...I’m don’t know writing. three books now and they have to thisIt is kindjust thereof nasty in my racism life allis sothe heavy time. inMost the HopiUS. It’ Indianss heavy are for Mormons everyone. now Many. And white I’m peoplenot sure think if it’ it’s stills heavy true, be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just forbut theit was rest true of us, in thebut ’70s,it’s heavy the Mormon for everybody religion. said if you really love God and follow the Mormon rules, Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking you will become whiter. Many Hopis committed suicide. Many Indians, in general, still commit suicide. But moment for me and it’s the center image in Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad Ithis noted kind that of nasty you intrracismoduced is so yourselfheavy in asthe a US. poet It’ first,s heavy and for language everyone. is suchMany a white tremendously people think important it’s heavy things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself elementfor the rest to ofany us, understanding but it’s heavy forof youreverybody work.. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry in the bad column. That, to me, really takes your breath away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when and visual art? you’re reading those lists and you find his name. I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important Ielement think there to any is no understanding separation at all. of yourI’ve done work. a coupleWhere of does drawings the demar that arecation poems. lie for Then you just between yesterday poetry I did a It is just there in my life all the time. Most Hopi Indians are Mormons now. And I’m not sure if it’s still true, coupleand visual of drawings, art? they only work with the words on them. Without the words, they don’t work. Without but it was true in the ’70s, the Mormon religion said if you really love God and follow the Mormon rules, the paint, it wouldn’t work, either. you will become whiter. Many Hopis committed suicide. Many Indians, in general, still commit suicide. But I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a this kind of nasty racism is so heavy in the US. It’s heavy for everyone. Many white people think it’s heavy Butcouple a friend of drawings, here in Berlin,they only a composer work with, was the talkingwords onand them. I said, W “Ifithout you the said words, that music they don’ had tan work. essenc Withoute, what for the rest of us, but it’s heavy for everybody. wouldthe paint, it be?” it wouldn’ I was teachingt work, either at the. time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important But a friend here in Berlin, a composer, was talking and I said, “If you said that music had an essence, what painting and it is music.” And I loved that idea because, well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought element to any understanding of your work. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry would it be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you of it for music. and visual art? would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a Ipainting would beand curious it is music.” to know And a I littleloved bit that mor ideae about because, your well pr,ocess I knew as that a writer was true. Writing, for art ofbut course, I never isn’t thought I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a easyof it .for Do music. you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or couple of drawings, they only work with the words on them. Without the words, they don’t work. Without sculpture, there is text often included in your work. How does the text match up with the image, how the paint, it wouldn’t work, either. doI would they informbe curious each to other? know a little bit more about your process as a writer. Writing, of course, isn’t easy. Do you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or But a friend here in Berlin, a composer, was talking and I said, “If you said that music had an essence, what Isculptur really doe, notther knowe is text. I don’ oftent do included any planning in your of text,work. except...I’m How does writingthe text three match books up withnow andthe image,they have how to would it be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you bedo planned.they inform But foreach doing other? poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a painting and it is music.” And I loved that idea because, well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought I really do not know. I don’t do any planning of text, except...I’m writing three books now and they have to of it for music. be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just I would be curious to know a little bit more about your process as a writer. Writing, of course, isn’t easy. Do you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or sculpture, there is text often included in your work. How does the text match up with the image, how do they inform each other?

I really do not know. I don’t do any planning of text, except...I’m writing three books now and they have to be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just If you do something seriously with art, and you look at what society is doing, and what you’re doing, and try to match what you’re doing to society, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So it’s not that I was looking at dead animals. It’s that society had all of these dead animals. And such a strange Disneyland idea of animals, dead or living.

I think that a lot of your work is, in fact, quite political. How do your politics inﬂect the type of work that you make?

I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political activist. We have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about human liberation.

Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992

There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political activism in a more literal sense with the American Indian Movement.

When Wounded Knee happened in ’73, I stopped everything and came back to the US; before that, I had not intended to come back. I was happy in Geneva, I was happy in Europe. But I had to respond one way or another to this strangeness, and I think the problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond to things, what to do in life, nobody knows. I certainly don’t know.

Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking moment for me and it’s the center image in Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself in the bad column. That, to me, really takes your breath away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when you’re reading those lists and you ﬁnd his name.

It is just there in my life all the time. Most Hopi Indians are Mormons now. And I’m not sure if it’s still true, Ifbut you it was do somethingtrue in the seriously’70s, the Mormonwith art, andreligion you looksaid ifat youwhat re sallyociety love is Goddoing, and and follow what the you’re Mormon doing, rules, and try toyou match will becomewhat you’re whiter doing. Many to societyHopis ,committed it helps your suicide. seriousness, Many Indians, it helps inmy general, seriousness still commitabout maki suicide.ng art. But So it’thiss notkind that of Inasty was lookingracism is at so dead heavy animals. in the It’US.s that It’s societyheavy for had everyone. all of these Many dead white animals. people And think such it’ as straheavynge Disneylandfor the rest ofidea us, of but animals, it’s heavy dead for or everybody living. .

I thinknoted thatthat ayou lot introf youroduced work yourself is, in fact, as a quitepoet first,political. and languageHow do your is such politics a tremendously inflect the type important of work thatelement you tomake? any understanding of your work. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry and visual art? I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political activist.I think there We haveis no theseparation idea that at a all. political I’ve done activist a couple has to of protest, drawings and that I’ve are certainly poems. done Then that just in yesterday my life. SoI did if Ia writecouple a ofpoem drawings, or if I makethey only a piece work of withart that the says, words “No on colonizthem. Wationithout of theAmerican words, Indians,”they don’ it’t work.s pretty W ithoutboring, isn’the paint,t it? It itdoesn’ wouldn’t dot anything.work, either Everybody. says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not political. It’s just nothing. So I learned from Freire and from many other people that our activism is about humanBut a friend liberation. here in Berlin, a composer, was talking and I said, “If you said that music had an essence, what would it be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a Jimmiepainting Durham. and it is music.”A sheet fromAnd ICaliban loved that Codex idea. 1992because, well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought of it for music. There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political activismI would be in curiousa more literalto know sense a little with bit the mor Americane about yourIndian pr ocessMovement. as a writer. Writing, of course, isn’t easy. Do you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or Whensculptur Woundede, there Kneeis text happened often included in ’73, Iin stopped your work. everything How doesand came the text bac kmatch to the up US; with before the that,image, I had how not intendeddo they inform to come each back. other? I was happy in Geneva, I was happy in Europe. But I had to respond one way or another to this strangeness, and I think the problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond toI really things, do what not know to do. inI don’ life,t nobodydo any planningknows. I ofcertainly text, except...I’m don’t know writing. three books now and they have to be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking moment for me and it’s the center image in Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself in the bad column. That, to me, really takes your breath away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when you’re reading those lists and you find his name.

It is just there in my life all the time. Most Hopi Indians are Mormons now. And I’m not sure if it’s still true, but it was true in the ’70s, the Mormon religion said if you really love God and follow the Mormon rules, If you do something seriously with art, and you look at what society is doing, and what you’re doing, and try you will become whiter. Many Hopis committed suicide. Many Indians, in general, still commit suicide. But to match what you’re doing to society, it helps your seriousness, it helps my seriousness about making art. So this kind of nasty racism is so heavy in the US. It’s heavy for everyone. Many white people think it’s heavy it’s not that I was looking at dead animals. It’s that society had all of these dead animals. And such a strange for the rest of us, but it’s heavy for everybody. Disneyland idea of animals, dead or living. I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important I think that a lot of your work is, in fact, quite political. How do your politics inflect the type of work element to any understanding of your work. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry that you make? and visual art? I do think I’m always a political activist. I write poetry politically as an activist. I make art as a political I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a activist. We have the idea that a political activist has to protest, and I’ve certainly done that in my life. So if I couple of drawings, they only work with the words on them. Without the words, they don’t work. Without write a poem or if I make a piece of art that says, “No colonization of American Indians,” it’s pretty boring, the paint, it wouldn’t work, either. isn’t it? It doesn’t do anything. Everybody says, “Yeah, of course. Yeah, good.” It’s not art and it’s not Butpolitical. a friend It’s here just innothing. Berlin, So a composerI learned ,from was Freiretalking and and from I said, many “If youother said pe oplethat musicthat our had activism an essenc is aboute, what wouldhuman itliberation. be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992 paintingJimmie Durham. and it is music.”A sheet fromAnd ICaliban loved that Codex idea. because,1992 well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought Therof ite wasfor a music.time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political activism in a more literal sense with the American Indian Movement. There was a time that you returned to the United States from Geneva to actually practice political WhenI would Wounded be Knee curious happened to in know’73, I stopped a little everything bit andmor camee about back to the your US; before process that, I had as not a intendedwriter to. Wcomeriting, back. I waofs happycourse, in Geneva, isn’t I was happyactivism in Europe. in But a morI had toe respondliteral one sense way or anotherwith tothe thi sAmerican strangeness, and Indian I think the Movement.problem is still there. It gets worse, not better. But how to respond to things,easy .what Do to you do in life,work nobody out knows. the I textcertainly that don’ tyou know .end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or sculpture, there is text often included in your work. How does the text match up with the image, how CalibanWhen Codex, Wounded which is Kneea series ofhappened pseudo diary in entries, ’73, isI verystopped moving. everything There’s this heartbr and eakingcame moment back forto methe and US; it’s thebefore center that,image inI hadCaliban not Codexdointended they wher einform youto comehave aeach list back. of goodother? I wasand bad happy things. inAnd Geneva, all the good I thin wasgs arhappye light and in thenEurope. all the badBut things I had are todark, respond and Caliban one puts way himself or in the badanother column. to That, this to me,strangeness, really takes your and br eathI think away .the It’s likeproblem a punch inis the still stomach there. when It you’rgetse worse,reading those not lists better and you. But find how his name. to respond ItIto isreally justthings, there do in what mynot life know to all dothe. time. inI don’ life, Mostt Hopinobodydo anyIndians planningknows. are Mormons I ofcertainly now text,. And except...I’mI’m don’ not suret know if it’s writingstill. true, but three it was truebooks in the now ’70s, the and Mormon they religi haveon said to if yoube reallyplanned. love God But and followfor doing the Mormon poetry rules,, youespecially—and will become whiter. Manyalmost Hopis every committed poet suicide. says Many this—they Indians, in general, just come.still commit They suicide. just But this kind of nasty racism is so heavy in the US. It’s heavy for everyone. Many white people think it’s heavy for the rest of us, but it’s heavy for everybody. Caliban Codex, which is a series of pseudo diary entries, is very moving. There’s this heartbreaking I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important element to any understanding of your work. Where does themoment demarcation for lie me for you and between it’s poetrythe center and visual image art? in Caliban Codex where you have a list of good and bad things. And all the good things are light and then all the bad things are dark, and Caliban puts himself I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a couple of drawings, they only work with the words on them.in the Without bad the column. words, they don’That,t work. to W me,ithout rtheeally paint, takesit wouldn’ yourt work, breithereath. away. It’s like a punch in the stomach when you’re reading those lists and you find his name. But a friend here in Berlin, a composer, was talking and I said, “If you said that music had an essence, what would it be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a painting andIt isit is just music.” there And Iin loved my that life idea all because, the well,time. I knew Most that Hopiwas true Indians for art but Iare never Mormons thought of it for now music.. And I’m not sure if it’s still true, Ibut would it bewas curious true to inknow the a little’70s, bit morthee Mormonabout your pr religionocess as a writersaid. ifW riting,you ofre course,ally love isn’t easyGod. Do and you workfollow out the the text Mormon that you end rules, up using in youryou visual will art? become Whether whiter it’s drawing. Many or sculptur Hopise, ther committede is text often includedsuicide. in yourMany work. Indians, How does in the general, text match upstill with commit the image, suicide. how do they But inform each other? this kind of nasty racism is so heavy in the US. It’s heavy for everyone. Many white people think it’s heavy Ifor really the do notrest know of. Ius, don’ butt do any it’ splanning heavy of text,for except...I’meverybody writing. three books now and they have to be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just happen to you, and you feel like they’re not really yours. But the text I use with sculpture is exactly the same way, so that, for me, there is no separation at any time. I noted that you introduced yourself as a poet first, and language is such a tremendously important element to any understanding of your work. Where does the demarcation lie for you between poetry and visual art?

I think there is no separation at all. I’ve done a couple of drawings that are poems. Then just yesterday I did a couple of drawings, they only work with the words on them. Without the words, they don’t work. Without the paint, it wouldn’t work, either.

But a friend here in Berlin, a composer, was talking and I said, “If you said that music had an essence, what would it be?” I was teaching at the time. I knew that art did not have an essence but I thought surely you would say that music has one, but she said, “There is nothing like that. If you’re a musician, you can do a painting and it is music.” And I loved that idea because, well, I knew that was true for art but I never thought of it for music.

I would be curious to know a little bit more about your process as a writer. Writing, of course, isn’t easy. Do you work out the text that you end up using in your visual art? Whether it’s drawing or sculpture, there is text often included in your work. How does the text match up with the image, how do they inform each other?

I really do not know. I don’t do any planning of text, except...I’m writing three books now and they have to be planned. But for doing poetry, especially—and almost every poet says this—they just come. They just happen to you, and you feel like they’re not really yours. But the text I use with sculpture is exactly the same way, so that, for me, there is no separation at any time.

Jimmie Durham. A sheet from Caliban Codex. 1992

Paulina Pobocha

Associate Curator, Department of Painting and Sculpture

happen to you, and you feel like they’re not really yours. But the text I use with sculpture is exactly the same way, so that, for me, there is no separation at any time.

Caliban Codex JimmieJimmie Durham. Durham. A sheet from A sheet from. Caliban1992 Codex. 1992 Paulina Pobocha

AssociatePau Curatorlina, DepartmentPoboch a of Painting and Sculpture InterviewAssociate Curator, Department Readof Painting and Sculpture Related articles

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