Wednesday Volume 507 17 March 2010 No. 59

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 17 March 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 859 17 MARCH 2010 860 House of Commons Tax Credits 2. Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): Wednesday 17 March 2010 What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the tax credit system in Wales. [321806] The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock 7. Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of PRAYERS the Exchequer on the number of families claiming tax credits in Wales. [321813]

[MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] 8. Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the number of families claiming tax credits in Wales. [321815] Oral Answers to Questions The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): We introduced tax credits to provide support to families, to help to reduce child poverty and to make work pay, benefiting about 326,000 families and more than 500,000 WALES children in Wales.

Mr. Watson: Happy St. Patrick’s day, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State was asked— Can my right hon. Friend assure me that he has no Crime Levels plans to axe or cut tax credits?

1. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What recent Mr. Hain: I, too, wish you a happy St. Patrick’s day, discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on Mr. Speaker. levels of crime in Wales. [321805] I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance, as can the whole Government. Tax credits have made The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales work pay, lifted hundreds of thousands of people out of (Mr. Wayne David): As a member of the national policing poverty, and encouraged people to get off benefits and board and the crime reduction board, I have regular into work. That is why I resent the fact that there is now discussions with ministerial colleagues on all matters a Tory sword of Damocles hanging over tax credits for relating to law and order. The latest statistics show that, those on low and modest incomes in Wales. The sooner overall, recorded crime in Wales is down 3 per cent. on that the Conservatives stop threatening to cut tax credits last year. and many other support mechanisms in Wales, the better. Chris Ruane: I thank the Minister for that response. I have in my hand an article from the Daily Post, which says that north Wales is one of the safest places to live Mrs. James: In my constituency, just more than 7,000 in the whole of Britain. Denbighshire has the third best families have benefited from the child tax credit system. crime and disorder reduction partnership in the whole Can the Secretary of State tell me how many families in of England and Wales. Why are Tory MPs and candidates total have benefited from the policies of this Government in north Wales going round claiming that violent crime on this important issue? there has risen by 68 per cent.? Mr. Hain: As I have said, 326,000 families have Mr. David: It is not for me to say why the Conservative benefited right across Wales. This is not simply a question party behaves as it does. I simply say that that comes as of their benefiting from tax credits; these measures have no surprise; it is a dodgy party that uses dodgy statistics. helped to lift people out of poverty. About 50,000 children in Wales have been lifted out of poverty, and Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): Alcohol continues we also have a policy to offer free breakfasts for primary to play a major role in fuelling violence and criminal school children. That is part of our policy of tackling behaviour in my constituency and across Wales. In the poverty. All that would be threatened if the Tory policies light of that, what discussions has the Minister had to cut free breakfasts for primary school children and to with his colleagues in Westminster and in the Welsh cut tax credits were ever introduced. Assembly Government on introducing a minimum price for alcohol? Mrs. Williams: Does my right hon. Friend agree with my constituents that the tax credit system is certainly Mr. David: Discussions on that issue are ongoing. It not a gimmick? Will he confirm my understanding that is important to recognise that the Government take a this Labour Government will continue with the £66,000 firm stance on issues associated with alcohol abuse and limit, whereas the Tory proposal is to reduce it to antisocial behaviour arising from it. That is one of our £50,000, which would certainly affect my constituents? priorities, and it goes hand in hand with the emphasis that we continually place on neighbourhood policing. Mr. Hain rose— 861 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 862

Mr. Speaker: Order. I know that the Secretary of Mr. Hain: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have State will probably not need reminding, but I hope that lifted many thousands of people across Wales out of he will focus his reply only on the policy of the Government. tax altogether through the changes that we have made to taxation. Of course, we want to make sure that Mr. Hain: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member especially those on low incomes pay the minimum possible for Conwy (Mrs. Williams), who is standing down at tax and no tax at all, if possible. The tax credit system, the next election. She has been a real warrior for north notwithstanding the administrative problems that we Wales, and particularly for women right across have seen at the heart of it, has liberated many hundreds Wales. Everyone respects her for that. As she has said, of thousands of people right across Britain, including tax credits have played an absolutely vital role, particularly Wales, giving them a chance to work. Otherwise, those during the downturn, in helping to keep people in work people would have been languishing on benefits, as they and off benefits. About 21,600 families whose income were under the Conservatives. fell for six months last year benefited from an average increase of £36 a week in tax credits. That helped Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): Does my right to keep people in work, and those people would not hon. Friend agree that families in my constituency and have stayed in work if that support mechanism had in Wales will benefit from the policy change recently been cut from underneath them, as the Conservatives announced by the Government, which means that there are planning. will be much greater flexibility in the tax credit system to cope with changes in the make-up of the household? Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): Is Will that not provide an even better way of targeting not this pathetic scaremongering over tax credits merely help to those at work who most need it? a smokescreen to prevent discussion of Labour’s true failure on welfare in Wales—namely, that after 13 years Mr. Hain: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. of this sorry Government, almost exactly one quarter Women have especially benefited from tax credits, and of the working age population in Wales is economically they feel especially threatened by the policies of the inactive, out of work and doing nothing? That is a Opposition. May I take this opportunity to welcome shameful record. the fact that some 400 new jobs for 18 to 24-year-olds have been announced today in Cardiff, spearheaded by Mr. Hain: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman Cardiff county council, which will help to create dares to mention economic inactivity on a day when the employment? Many of them will be able to benefit from statistics show that it has fallen in Wales by a larger tax credits in the future, if this Labour Government, proportion than anywhere else in the UK. This shows but not the Conservatives, are re-elected. that the curse that we inherited from the Conservative Government of people being smuggled off the dole Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): queue on to incapacity benefit and of other forms of As we have heard, the tax credit system is very complex economic inactivity has been tackled under Labour. and fraught with difficulties. I am sure that the Secretary Employment is up to nearly 100,000 extra jobs in Wales, of State agrees that one of the main causes of poverty giving people more support, while economic inactivity in Wales is the very low level at which income tax starts is down, contrary to what the hon. Gentleman has said. being paid, which stops people entering or re-entering the employment market. Will the Secretary of State Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the take the opportunity this morning to support the Liberal Secretary of State tell the House how many constituents Democrat proposal to have a personal income tax allowance at his advice surgeries have been in tears in his office of £10,000, which would take 220,000 people out of tax because of the tax credit system over the past five years? altogether in Wales?

Mr. Hain: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what I have Mr. Hain: I am not sure how that policy fits with the had in my constituency—[HON.MEMBERS: “Answer the Liberal Democrat policy of cutting tax credits to many question.”] I am answering the question, but I do not on modest incomes—a policy shared with the Conservatives. think that the hon. Gentleman will like the answer. In I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would my constituency office, I have seen people desperately welcome not only how the tax credit system has benefited worried—some in tears—about the threat to their tax so many people in Wales, but the fact that unemployment credits from the Conservatives, should the Conservatives measured by the claimant count is down, that employment get into government. Many thousands of my constituents, is up and that economic inactivity is down—all better and many tens of thousands across Wales, have benefited news as Wales struggles to get out of this recession. The from tax credits, which have given them much better situation is still very fragile, but we are making progress, prospects for prosperity in the future. which would be wrecked if the Conservative policies of cuts were ever to take effect. Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): No would argue other than that the driver for tax Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): credits is a perfectly acceptable and laudable aim, but Tax credits offer important support to people who are we all have lots of cases in our constituency surgeries of in work, and we support them. Many voters in Wales where they have gone wrong. About 80,000 families in will be surprised that the Secretary of State thinks that Wales are not claiming a total of £140 million that £50,000 is a low income—it obviously is to him. This could be claimed. Does the Secretary of State agree that morning’s figures show that the Labour Government we should look at raising the income tax threshold by have mismanaged this economy, that 9,000 more Welsh £1,000 to take those people out of the bureaucracy and workers have lost their jobs and that the Welsh mistake-making? unemployment rate is the worst in the UK. Is the right 863 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 864 hon. Gentleman not ashamed that more and more stop his party, and its candidates and Members of people in Wales are no longer eligible for working tax Parliament, attacking policies such as free bus travel credits? How can he so blithely say “making work pay”, and free prescriptions for pensioners in Wales? when one in 10 are now not actually working? Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I am sure that my right Mr. Hain: The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said hon. Friend agrees that the free bus pass has not only that household incomes of £31,000 or more will be given pensioners a new lease of life, but has had the subject to tax cuts if Conservative policies are implemented, environmental benefit of getting people out of their and that the figure of £50,000 cited by the shadow cars and making rural buses more viable. Will he talk to Chancellor is wrong. I prefer to believe the IFS rather his counterparts in the Welsh Assembly to ensure that than the shadow Chancellor, especially given that his funding for rural buses continues, so that they are policies are being powered by Lord Ashcroft’s illegal— available to the pensioners who want to use them?

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State really Mr. Hain: I will certainly do that, but policies such as must not tread down that path. free bus travel for pensioners can continue only if the Welsh Assembly Government receive support from the Pensioners Government in Westminster. If the cuts promised by the shadow Business Secretary yesterday are 3. Mr. Martyn Jones (Clwyd, South) (Lab): What implemented—an extra £20 billion of cuts are planned recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of over the next few years—the Welsh Assembly Government State for Work and Pensions on support for pensioners will not possibly be able to fund free bus passes for in Wales. [321808] pensioners, free prescriptions, and free breakfasts for primary school children. All those things will be under The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): threat. Let me first pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is standing down after many years’ service in the House. Research Councils (University Funding) Labour policies since 1997 have provided generous support for pensioners in Wales and across the United 4. Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What recent Kingdom, and nearly 900,000 fewer of them are now discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for living in poverty. Business, Innovation and Skills on the allocation of funding by the research councils to universities in Mr. Martyn Jones: As my right hon. Friend has said, Wales. [321809] I shall, sadly, be standing down at the next election and beginning my retirement in Wales. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Far more sadly, I shall shortly be staring the state (Mr. Wayne David): My right hon. Friend the Secretary pension age in the face; I know that that is hard to of State and I have had a number of discussions about believe. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the real how best to strengthen Wales’s research capacity. We benefits enjoyed by pensioners in Wales are maintained, also have regular discussions with the Welsh Assembly especially winter fuel payments? Government about the issue, because we recognise that it is vitally important. Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend’s young appearance will be sadly missed, particularly the bow tie, which is almost Mark Williams: I thank the Minister for meeting me unique in the Chamber. I agree with him that winter earlier this week to discuss Aberystwyth university. Will fuel payments—introduced by this Government, and he also note that, according to the most recent report by increased by them to £400 a year for those over 80 and the Welsh Affairs Committee, £250 a year, tax-free, for those over 60—are a vital “the proposal to concentrate research funds appears likely further support measure, as are free bus passes and free to limit the opportunities” prescriptions, especially in Wales. All those benefits for Welsh universities would be under threat, if the £20 billion cuts promised by the shadow Business Secretary were introduced, “to maintain and develop their research capabilities”? which is what we would expect from a Conservative That view will resonate strongly with my constituents in Government. Aberystwyth, where 70 people face the prospect of job losses. Yes, money should follow excellence, but it should Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Many Welsh also follow the excellence of the future. pensioners would now be enjoying a considerably more comfortable retirement if the then Chancellor, the current Mr. David: The hon. Gentleman and I had a very Prime Minister, had not decided in 1997 to abolish useful discussion on Monday, in which we addressed advance corporation tax credits for pension funds. Does the situation in Aberystwyth, in particular with regard the Secretary of State think, 13 years later, that that to IBERS—the institute of biological, environmental £100 billion raid on pension funds was right? and rural sciences. We fully recognise the excellent work that is done there; I have visited it myself and have seen Mr. Hain: The truth is that pensioners are a great deal at first hand the exemplary research that is conducted. better off under this Labour Government. Pensioner Any restructuring is, however, a matter for Aberystwyth households in Wales will be £1,500 better off this year, university; any restructuring that has been taking place and the poorest third of pensioner households will be is not a result of any reduction in research council £2,100 better off. Why does the hon. Gentleman not funding, and that support will continue. 865 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 866

Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South it is still the Government’s policy to allow private companies Pembrokeshire) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend join me in to buy training packages from what will be a world-class welcoming the creation of the new Trinity St. David facility? university, based in my constituency, which will act as a strategic hub in the regional framework, linking with Mr. David: I confirm that the Labour Government’s Swansea Metropolitan university, Coleg Sir Gâr and policy remains unchanged: bona fide defence organisations Pembrokeshire college, and thereby creating a dynamic will, of course, have the opportunity to use this excellent learning and skills powerhouse for post-16 education in £12 billion facility. May I also emphasise that this is the south-west Wales? Also, is this not one of the key single largest defence investment Wales will have ever developments that could be put at risk by— seen? Labour Members are fully committed to it, and I only wish that Opposition Members were equally Mr. Speaker: Order. I think we have understood the committed. question. We now need to hear the answer. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): If the Government Mr. David: The answer to that last question is, of press ahead with the construction of this defence training course, yes. It is vitally important that we continue to college, how will Ministers address the fact that a recent invest strategically to make sure that we develop the survey by the Public and Commercial Services Union capacity of our people to the full. As we come out of suggested that 74 per cent. of civilian instructors will be the current recession and look to the future, it is essential either unwilling or unable to relocate from Shropshire that we invest in higher education and research and to Wales because of the difference in house prices? development, and that is happening through partnership between this Government and the Welsh Assembly. Mr. David: The hon. Gentleman is a long-standing Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): It seems that the and consistent opponent of this exemplary defence Minister is content with a situation whereby Welsh establishment, which is most unfortunate. [Interruption.] universities—Bangor, Aberystwyth and the rest—are Labour Members are full-square behind it. We recognise short-changed by £41 million in research money per that this will be a huge investment for south Wales. year, as identified in the Welsh Affairs Committee report [Interruption.] It will be a massive boost for the Welsh on cross-border public services. Is this not yet another economy, providing thousands of jobs and, most case of throwing millions of pounds at people who importantly, first-class training for our armed forces. already have, and ça ne fait rien for the rest? Mr. Speaker: Order. There are far too many private Mr. David: Well, let us be clear that investment in conversations taking place on both sides of the Chamber. higher and further education—and education generally—in It is very unfair to the Member asking the question and Wales is gathering momentum and continuing apace. It to the Minister answering it. is extremely important that that happens, because we recognise that investment in skills, education and research Devolution Settlement and development is the bedrock on which our recovery must be based. That is why public expenditure is so 6. John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): important. That is what we believe in; sadly, Conservative What recent discussions he has had with the First Members do not. Minister on the question of the devolution settlement St. Athan Defence Training College under the Government of Wales Act 2006; and if he will make a statement. [321812] 5. Mr. Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions he has had with Welsh Assembly The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): Government Ministers on preparations for the We regularly discuss how the Government of Wales construction of the defence training college at St. Act 2006 is delivering powers for the Assembly—so far, Athan. [321810] in 58 different areas over the past two years.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales John Robertson: Are there discussions on taxation (Mr. Wayne David): May I begin by paying tribute to powers for the Welsh Assembly? What we have learned the excellent work that my right hon. Friend has done in Scotland is that although we may already have them, over a number of years and wish him well in his they are never used by any party and are actually a retirement? waste of time. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has discussed with the First Minister the significant economic Mr. Hain: There has been no pressure—certainly benefits that the defence training college will bring as from the Government side—to introduce tax-varying the single largest defence investment in Wales. powers for the Welsh Assembly Government. As my hon. Friend has said, they have not been used in Scotland Mr. Touhig: As we celebrate St. Patrick’s day, we to date. should all remember, of course, that St. Patrick was a Welshman born in the county of Gwent. Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): The defence training college will greatly increase Why is it right for an English Minister to sit as judge the defence footprint in Wales, and will lead to the and jury on the question of bilingual juries? Should this creation of large numbers of highly paid and highly not be a decision made in Wales for Wales by a Welsh skilled jobs, but will my hon. Friend confirm whether Government elected by the Welsh people? 867 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 868

Mr. Hain: I understand the passion with which the Economic Activity hon. Gentleman asks the question. The issue that Ministers have had to grapple with is balancing the right and 9. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent desire of Welsh speakers to have bilingual juries with discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for ensuring at the same time that random selection is Work and Pensions on the level of economic inactivity maintained. This is part of a continuing dialogue as we in Wales. [321816] move into the future. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): (Mr. Wayne David): The latest labour market statistics On his own website, the Secretary of State says that it is show the economic inactivity level in Wales falling by “clear” to him 9,000 in the last quarter. This is the largest fall in the “that a referendum held before or in 2011 would be lost”, United Kingdom. and that further powers should not be granted “today…tomorrow, nor even next year or the year after that”. John Howell: When one analyses the unemployment Given these comments, will he be accepting the referendum figures, one finds that 100 people a day were made request currently sitting on his desk, or, like so many of unemployed in Wales in the three months to January of his colleagues, will he be waiting for any decisions to be this year. Is the Minister not ashamed of that and of the taken by an incoming Conservative Government? lack of drive on fixing the Welsh economy? Mr. Hain: As the hon. Lady very well knows, Labour Mr. David: Employment figures in Wales are higher is the party of devolution. We are the only party that than they have been for a long time and compare very has delivered any extra powers for Wales, and I, as favourably with the situation in Wales under the previous Secretary of State, am proud that I legislated in the Conservative Government. The hon. Gentleman asked 2006 Act for the option of a referendum to deliver full specifically about economic inactivity, which has fallen law-making powers for the Welsh Assembly Government, by 0.5 per cent. in Wales. That is enormously significant. and in time I am sure that that will come about. Specifically, I remember what happened to economic inactivity when as she has asked, work is continuing among my officials the Conservatives were last in power: all the pits were in response to the First Minister’s request under the closed, and a generation of the work force was thrown 2006 Act to take this process forward, so that a referendum on to the dole and forgotten about. That will never can be called as and when it is required. happen again, under us. Dr. Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): The Secretary Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Despite the worst of State will be aware that the Welsh Affairs Committee global recession for more than half a century, the level has completed all its pre-legislative scrutiny of the of unemployment in my constituency is 57 per cent. legislative competence orders that have come before it. lower than it was in 1992. Does the Minister agree that [Interruption.] Can he give an assurance to the House investment, such as the £635 million at RAF Valley, will that he will make every effort to ensure that these orders provide apprenticeships and new quality jobs in the complete all their remaining stages before the Dissolution future, and that that would be under threat if the of Parliament? [Interruption.] Conservatives ever came to office? Mr. Speaker: Order. The House really must come to Mr. David: My hon. Friend is right to cite what is order. The Chair of the Select Committee has just asked happening at RAF Valley and the defence investment a question and it really is the height of discourtesy for that is taking place there. Such investment is not only him not to be heard. happening with the defence training college at St. Athan; it is happening in many other parts of Wales, including Mr. Hain: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work the RAF Valley establishment in north Wales. That of the Welsh Affairs Committee in taking forward reinforces the fact that the level of employment in Wales record levels of scrutiny and speeding this process through. is 100,000 higher than it was under the Conservatives, It is our Government’s determination that all the legislative and we will continue to ensure that creating jobs is our competence orders that have been effectively scrutinised priority. by his Committee will get Royal Assent. There is a Statutory Instrument Committee next week, and I hope that the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham PRIME MINISTER (Mrs. Gillan) will co-operate in speeding those through. Yes, in the wash-up negotiations, I hope that the Opposition The Prime Minister was asked— will back the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy and the LCO to deliver policies to tackle lack of housing and homelessness in Wales, which they are threatening Engagements to block. Q1. [322418] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): If he will Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Before the list his official engagements for Wednesday 17 March. House rises for the election, will the Secretary of State be willing to share a date for a referendum on further The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I know that devolution of powers? the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the three members of our armed forces from 1st Battalion Mr. Hain: This is a matter for consideration after the The Royal Anglian Regiment attached to the Household general election. All the parties agree with that, and that Cavalry Regiment Battle Group who have lost their is the position made clear by the First Minister only lives in Afghanistan this week. Their bravery and the yesterday. sacrifice they have made for the future of Afghanistan 869 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 870 and for the security of the British people will not be Afghanistan and to the two other soldiers from the forgotten. Our thoughts today are with their families same regiment who were killed yesterday? Anyone who and loved ones as they receive this very sad news. has been to Selly Oak knows the brilliant work that the I am sure that the House will also want us to pay staff do there and everyone should pay tribute to them. respects to Dr. Ashok Kumar, who sadly died this week. The sacrifice of these soldiers should never be forgotten. He was a tenacious campaigner and a passionate advocate May I also join the Prime Minister in paying tribute for the people of Teesside, and his expertise and wise to Ashok Kumar, who died at a young age? He was counsel will be sorely missed at all times in this House. respected on both sides of the House for his hard work representing a constituency that he loved and campaigning Tony Baldry: I am sure the whole House would wish for the causes in which he believed. The House has lost to support the Prime Minister in his condolences for the a great representative and our thoughts should be with tragic loss of the lives of British servicemen, who died his friends and family at this time. doing their duty, and in his comments about the death Before I go on to my other questions, may I thank the of Ashok Kumar, who was a genuinely decent colleague. Prime Minister for his answer to my hon. Friend the The Prime Minister told the Chilcot inquiry and the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry)? In three years of House that defence expenditure rose in real terms every asking the Prime Minister questions, I do not think that year. The House of Commons Library has now produced I have ever heard him make a correction or a retraction. figures that clearly show that that assertion is simply The fact is that if one looks at defence spending figures incorrect. This is the first opportunity the Prime Minister or defence budget figures, there have been years when has had in the House to set the record straight. Will he there have been real-terms cuts, and at last the Prime now do so? Will he also write to Chilcot to ensure that Minister has admitted it. On a day when he has had to the inquiry’s record is also corrected? admit that he cannot get his own figures right, perhaps we should not have to listen to him talking about The Prime Minister: Yes, and I am already writing to Conservative policy. Sir John Chilcot about this issue. Defence spending rose Let me turn to the strike that threatens to disrupt from £21 billion in 1997 to about £40 billion this year; it travel for thousands of people this weekend. Lord Adonis rose every year in cash terms. For a number of operational says that it will and other reasons, the real-terms rise in the defence “threaten the very existence of British Airways.” budget was 12 per cent. over the past 13 years. Because When the Prime Minister was asked about it, he said, of our expenditure on Afghanistan and on Iraq we have “It’s the wrong time.” Will he tell us when is the right spent £17 billion more than the defence budget, but time for a strike that threatens the future of one of because of operational fluctuations in the way the money Britain’s biggest employers and best companies? is spent expenditure has risen in cash terms every year, in real terms it is 12 per cent. higher, but I do accept that in one or two years defence expenditure did not rise in The Prime Minister: I would have thought that every real terms. person in this House would want to see a resolution to the dispute as quickly as possible. My thoughts are with the customers of British Airways and with those who Q14. [322431] Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): The nine Sure Start children’s depend for their jobs on the success of British Airways centres in my constituency are doing an exceptional and our other airlines. That is exactly why, at this point job. One head teacher, whose school has a centre in time, I want the sides to get together and to discuss attached to it, has told me that it would be a massive these issues—[Interruption.] The Conservative party backward step to restrict access to that centre in any and others may wish to laugh about this issue, but I way, so can my right hon. Friend assure him and me think the important thing is the advice that I gave to the that we will not do that? management of British Airways and to the unions, which was to take a deep breath, keep calm and keep talking about the issue. I do not think that an industrial The Prime Minister: We have opened 3,500 Sure Start relations dispute should be brought into the House of centres in this country; that is a children’s centre open in Commons in this way. It is our—[Interruption.] almost every community of the country, available to all families and to all children. That is a major transformation of children’s services since 1997, and it would be a very Mr. Speaker: Order. We are at a very early stage and sad day if an all-party consensus could not be reached Members must not get overexcited. They should try to on the fact that what we do for our under-fives is an keep cool and keep the noise down. essential element of early learning and an essential element of the development of their potential. The The Prime Minister: It is our desire to work, we hope, Conservative policy to cut back on Sure Start children’s with the Conservative party and other parties so that we centres—[Interruption.] I think they protest too much, can reach a resolution on the issue. Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition said that Sure Start centres would be better targeted at the deprived Mr. Cameron: One word can sum up that answer: communities of this country and not the 100 per cent. weak. It is not advice that is required, but some leadership. who need them. Let me ask the Prime Minister this: this weekend, management and non-unionised workers will be doing Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): May I join the everything they can to keep British airways going, so Prime Minister in paying tribute to the soldier from will he join me in urging Unite members to join them by 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment who died at crossing the picket line, going to work and getting this Selly Oak on Monday after serving his country in business moving? 871 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 872

The Prime Minister: This is exactly what I mean Mr. Cameron: Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle. It is a simple about trying to make an industrial relations issue a question. It is a question of backbone, it is a question of partisan issue in politics. What we need to do is to get judgment and it is a question of character. Do you back the unions and the management to talk to each other. people who want to go to work—yes or no? Perhaps I should report to the House that I have talked to both sides and I believe that the agreement that was The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has near to being reached last Thursday is one that they can never once said that he backs a resolution to this build on for an agreement this week. I hope that the dispute. He has never called for management and unions Leader of the Opposition, instead of calling for action to get together to resolve the dispute. I have already that would happen after a strike took place, would help made my views clear about this issue, but I know that us by trying to call for a resolution of the strike in the what passengers want to know and what the country first place. wants to know is whether we can resolve this dispute. He has said nothing positive about resolving this dispute. Mr. Cameron: It is back to the 1970s. We have hand- It is the same old Tories. wringing from a weak Prime Minister while companies go down. Let me ask him the question again. This Mr. Cameron: This is why the right hon. Gentleman weekend, will he join me in urging unionised workers to cannot lead this country—absolutely no backbone when cross that picket line and help get this business going? the big tests come. He has failed the big test and we know why: because his party is a wholly owned subsidiary The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has of the Unite union. It picks the candidates, it chooses come a long way from a few months ago, when The the policies, it elects the leader and it has special access Daily Telegraph reported: to Downing street. That is why his response is so feeble. “David Cameron has launched a secret mission to win over Is it not true that when the crunch comes, he can act Britain’s trade unions…The trade unions have also been asked to only in the union interest, not the national interest? help draw up opposition policy, the Daily Telegraph can disclose”. It also stated that The Prime Minister: Not once has—[Interruption.] “party officials have met with the unions more than sixty times since the spring.” Mr. Speaker: Order. Members have made their views One day they are for the unions; the next day they are clear. Let us have a bit of quiet and hear the response against the unions. The only consistency is in their total from the Prime Minister. opportunism. The Prime Minister: Not once has the right hon. Mr. Cameron: In three—[Interruption.] Gentleman asked for a resolution of this dispute. Any previous Tory Administration would be trying to resolve Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the the dispute rather than provoke the dispute. I ask him to right hon. Gentleman, but Government Back Benchers think again about the words that he has used. They are are simmering over. They need to calm down and keep not calculated to end the dispute; they are calculated to cool heads. provoke the dispute. I have to say to him also that on the day we are publishing unemployment figures that are coming down, showing that we have a flexible labour Mr. Cameron: Most of them are paid to shout, market in the United Kingdom, showing that we have Mr. Speaker; that is the point. taken the action that is necessary to get people back In three years of asking the Prime Minister questions, into work, what he has shown once again is that he has that has got to be one of the most pathetic answers I no positive policy, no substance and no programme—no have ever had. It is one thing to talk to the unions, but it wonder he talks without notes: he has nothing to say. is another to give in to them like he does. Let me ask him the question again. Does he back brave workers Chris McCafferty (Calder Valley) (Lab): In the light who want to cross a picket line and keep a business of Mother’s Day 2010, does my right hon. Friend agree going? Does he? that it is time to give women in the developing world a real present this year by further investing in maternal The Prime Minister: I back a resolution of this dispute. and reproductive health at the millennium development The chairman of the Conservative party met the trade goal summit in September? After he is re-elected, will he unions and said: use his considerable acumen to encourage colleagues in “we have been having lots of meetings with top trade union the G8 to recognise the financial value of investing in officials over the last few months…I think the old antagonisms women’s health and lives? have long gone.” On the one hand, the Conservative party wants to The Prime Minister: Five hundred thousands mothers attack the unions and does not want a resolution of this die avoidable deaths each year, but there are things that dispute, but on the other it wants to talk to the unions. we can do—[Interruption.] I hope that the Conservatives That is complete opportunism. It should be trying to will be prepared to listen to a concern that is expressed find a resolution to this dispute and should be calling across the world about the levels of maternal mortality. on us to work with the unions and the management to Five hundred thousand mothers die each year. These do so. Anything else is likely to inflame the situation, are avoidable deaths, and this is one of the policy and I hope that instead of becoming a partisan politician themes of the G8 summit. It is important that we in this, the Leader of the Opposition, who is showing support whatever action can be taken. We as a Government his opportunism at every moment, will start to become are doing more than most to try to reduce this appalling a statesman. level of suffering, which can be avoided. 873 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 874

Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I should Q2. [322419] Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): like to add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence RBS, which is taxpayer-owned, has £700 billion less to the family and friends of the soldier from 1st Battalion today in loans and other assets than a year ago. Where The Royal Anglian Regiment, who died at Selly Oak has that £700 billion gone? hospital on Monday after sustaining terrible injuries in Afghanistan, and to those of the two soldiers from the Hon. Members: Ashcroft’s got it! same regiment who were killed just yesterday in Afghanistan, having served so bravely there. The Prime Minister: I do not know all the customers In addition, I of course wish to add my own tribute of the Royal Bank of Scotland. to Dr. Ashok Kumar. He had a reputation as an absolutely first-class local MP. He was a defender of the steel We have been trying to increase lending in the economy industry, and spoke out on the environment before it by having a range of lenders and not just one bank. We was fashionable to do so. He always spoke out for have been trying to get other banks into the business of fairness. lending. I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that Charlie Whelan and Lord Ashcroft are exactly the 300,000 small businesses have been given direct, cash same. One is the baron of the trade unions, and the flow help by the Government amounting to £5 billion other is the baron of Belize. Both are bankrolling over recent years. The Conservative party opposed that, political parties, and both are trying to buy—[Interruption.] but we made it possible. As a result, there are more small businesses in this country now than there were a year ago. Mr. Speaker: Order. The House must come to order and hear Mr. Nick Clegg. Q3. [322420] Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): Norfolkline, Mr. Clegg: The Tories are shouting about something SeaFrance and P&O Ferries have all attacked Dover that happened five years ago, but I am talking about Harbour Board’s proposals to sell off the port of cleaning up politics right now. We need a deal on party Dover, accusing it of abuse of power and threatening funding, but both of the other party leaders blocked the legal action through the courts. The people of Dover, Hayden Phillips agreement on that, so why should the seafarers and the port workers all oppose anyone believe a word that they have to say about party privatisation. Does my right hon. Friend agree that to funding now? sell the port of Dover would be the wrong thing? I do not expect that he will say yes to that, but does he agree that no Government would allow the sale of a port The Prime Minister: We and the Liberal party agreed without the trust and support of the main changes in political party funding in the summer, more stakeholders? than a year ago. It was the Conservative party that rejected the deal. The Prime Minister: I have always seen my hon. Mr. Clegg: That is rewriting history. They both blocked Friend as the most effective campaigner on behalf of the Hayden Phillips agreement—[Interruption.] Maybe the people of Dover. I repeat today what I said recently: the Prime Minister could listen to this; he might learn there will be no forced privatisation under Labour. We something. Both other party leaders blocked amendments are not pressurising the port to privatise, but we must to cap donations that we tabled to the Political Parties look for new options in the investment necessary for and Elections Bill just last year. It is just like the port expansion and Dover’s regeneration. Any proposals, expenses scandals: lots of talk, and yet both of them however, would need to take account of the views of the have no desire to change anything at all. local community and the stakeholders.

The Prime Minister: As a result of the legislation that Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): we have agreed on, we have made political party funding Macclesfield’s economic success has historically been far more transparent and the conduct of elections far based on manufacturing industry—textiles, pharmaceuticals fairer. We have also made it a requirement that people and aerospace. Does the Prime Minister agree that declare in the House of Commons register of interests manufacturing industry is one of the only sources of things that were never registered before. I cannot accept non-inflationary sustainable economic growth, and that the comparison that the right hon. Gentleman makes. if it is to be competitive and succeed in the future, it Lord Ashcroft lives offshore, and he is funding the Tory needs more regulation, particularly from Europe, and party without paying taxes in Britain. more taxation like it needs a hole in the head?

Colin Burgon (Elmet) (Lab): Is the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: We are the sixth biggest listening to the growing number of voices calling for manufacturing power in the world. We are expanding in investment, not cuts, in next week’s Budget? Does he advanced manufacturing, digitalisation and a range of agree that the Budget should serve not the interests of new industries, including aerospace, where we are doing the speculators in the City of London, but those of the extremely well. It is a vital part of the hon. Gentleman’s British people as a whole? region. Our capital allowances programme does more for manufacturing than any corporate tax cut proposed The Prime Minister: The Budget will be about building by the Conservative party, which would remove funds a stronger economy and taking forward the decisions from manufacturing. Also, the regional development that have taken us through the recession. In every agencies and their commitment to manufacturing are case—on employment, mortgages and small businesses— vital to the future of this country, and they should not those decisions were rejected by the Conservative party. be abolished. 875 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 876

Q4. [322421] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Will my The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for right hon. Friend ensure that public sector investment his chairmanship of the all-party group on trafficking continues in constituencies like mine, to help to bring in of women and children. I welcome his proposal to set private sector investment and build on the 800 jobs up a human trafficking foundation when he stands being created by Stobart and Tesco, helped by the down from Parliament, and we thank him for the work Northwest Regional Development Agency grant of that he has done while he has been a Member. I know £4 million and with the help of Halton borough that on this very tragic and very difficult issue he had a council? meeting with the Borders and Immigration Minister just before Christmas, and I know there is a belief that The Prime Minister: The growth of jobs in my hon. we could actually make some progress on the very issues Friend’s constituency and the announcements that have that the hon. Gentleman raises. The Borders and been made are very important to the recovery of the Immigration Minister is considering his decision in the British economy. Three hundred thousand people are light of the advice he has received, and he will be in leaving the unemployment register every month, and we touch with the hon. Gentleman about that. I hope that are seeing numbers of unemployed and numbers of we can bring a resolution to at least some of these tragic youth unemployed falling as a result of the action that issues of human trafficking. we have taken. Those new investments by Stobart and Tesco are crucial, and we also need the regional development Q7. [322424] Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I lost agency working with businesses in his region to ensure a great friend in Dr. Ashok Kumar. He was a gentle that the economic growth that the region deserves comes man, a true politician and a scientist who must never be about. forgotten. He was a great friend of this House, and all our thoughts are with his family and his constituents. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Given that the Prime There is a campaign called Think Jessica to develop Minister will have looked closely at the tragic case, will the awareness of vulnerable people, including pensioners, he say whether a Downing street staffer took part in a who are preyed upon by scam mail. Those people are conference call in July 2008 to discuss the suitability of losing their life savings to scam mail, and I challenge the Steven Purcell? Prime Minister to take up the case of Think Jessica and ensure that we outlaw scam mail using American ideas. The Prime Minister: I know nothing of what the hon. Gentleman says, but I shall look into it. The Prime Minister: I agree with everything that my hon. Friend said about Dr. Ashok Kumar, and my sympathies also go to his family, friends and constituents. Q5. [322422] Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Prime Minister agree that marine renewables My hon. Friend has identified a very bad practice have a big part to play in meeting our energy needs, that preys on large numbers of people in this country. reducing our carbon footprint and generating the jobs These are the worst rogue trading practices and scams, of the future? Will he continue to invest in that and as a result of action that we have taken we have important sector? uncovered an estimated £4 billion of fraud and saved an estimated £5 million for consumers. Recently, 39 organisations or people have been successfully The Prime Minister: We are talking about low-carbon prosecuted. The Office of Fair Trading is running an jobs for the future. Marine renewables are at the centre awareness campaign to alert the public to these scams, of that, and my hon. Friend’s constituency is crucial. and I urge people to visit the Consumer Direct website, Once again, we are investing in the jobs of the future. where there are a number of interactive online guides to We are investing in an industry policy that will create dealing with those problems. But my hon. Friend is the jobs of the future. Under the Conservatives, absolutely right: we must empower consumers to recognise unemployment would rise. and avoid these scams, and we must back this up with the strongest punishment. Q6. [322423] Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): May I first thank you personally, Mr. Speaker, for the support Q8. [322425] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and that you have given me in my campaign against human Bermondsey) (LD): Why should every pensioner in trafficking? May I also thank Ministers for their Britain not feel as betrayed by Labour, which has never backing, and the leader of my party, my right hon. restored the link between state pensions and earnings, Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), for his as by the Tories, who abolished the link in the first continuing support for and interest in the subject? place? Now for the Prime Minister. Does he realise that modern-day slavery is here in London, with some overseas The Prime Minister: Because we came into office and diplomats exploiting and abusing modern young people, recognised that the first problem in our country was domestics principally, who have restricted work permits, pensioner poverty. That is why we brought in the pension which prevent them from seeking other employment? credit; that is why 1 million pensioners have been taken They are then forced to leave this country and are out of poverty; and that is why women who had no deported back to the country they started from because industrial pensions of their own and sometimes not they cannot go to other employment. This is a tragedy even a full pension themselves benefited in a way that both for the families and for the embassy. Will he please has taken them out of poverty. They were mainly widows, see that something is done, because these people are mainly in their 80s. But for every pensioner we also crying out for the Government to take action against created—on top of the pension and the other measures modern-day slavery? that we have taken—the winter fuel allowance, which 877 Oral Answers17 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 878 goes to every pensioner family over 60 and has given Q10. [322427] Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West additional help to pensioners over these times. I should and Penistone) (Lab): May I take this opportunity to also mention that the biggest users of the national thank the Government for their recent series of health service are elderly people, and we have doubled changes to the way in which we will be dealing with the budget of the health service. asbestos-related diseases? Many of the victims will be grateful for the action that the Government have taken. Q15. [322432] Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister overturn the Law Lords’ Under Labour, interest rates over the past year have decision on pleural plaques when new medical evidence been just 0.5 per cent. In the previous, Tory recession, becomes available to him as Prime Minister after the they were 15 per cent. What impact would a thirtyfold next election? increase in interest rates have on hard-working families paying mortgages, and on defence companies, such as The Prime Minister: If medical evidence were to Kent Periscopes in my constituency, which are looking become available, we would obviously reassess the situation; to grow? I give my hon. Friend that assurance. At the same time, he should know that the Justice Secretary announced a The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely range of measures which provide real benefits for people right. Unemployment is half what it was in the 1990s, with asbestos-related disease. These include a system of when interest rates meant that mortgage repossessions fixed payments for individuals and the creation of an were about three times what they are now; and there are employers’ liability tracing office. In addition, the more small businesses now than there were a year ago, Government have confirmed their commitment to expand whereas in the 1990s small businesses faced 15 per cent. medical research in one of the most difficult areas, interest rates and went under. The Conservatives say where lives are so often, sadly, lost. I assure my hon. they are the party of change, but the only economic Friend that if new evidence becomes available we will policy that they have is to go back to the 1980s. re-examine the situation.

Q9. [322426] Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Q11. [322428] Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): When the Prime Minister last visited East Charlie Whelan was copied into all the Smeargate Dunbartonshire, he was campaigning for my Labour e-mails and was apparently part of the “forces of hell” predecessor at Tesco in Milngavie. Tesco now proposes of which the Chancellor spoke. Can the Prime Minister a giant store in the midst of the town’s conservation explain why he is now back in No. 10 advising the area, riding roughshod over local opinion. Five years Prime Minister, or has the Prime Minister’s moral on, does the Prime Minister agree that large compass suffered the same fate as the telephone and supermarkets such as Tesco wield too much power over other items beaten up in the bunker? our communities? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman had a The Prime Minister: We have tried to put in money chance to ask a question about his constituency, and to and help to renovate local shopping centres in the speak up for the people of Britain. Once again, the centres of towns, including the centres of smaller towns, Conservatives are trying to turn an industrial relations but I have to say that a planning decision is not a matter dispute into a political football; they should be ashamed for this House but one for the planning authorities. of themselves. 879 17 MARCH 2010 880

Speaker’s Statement Points of Order

12.35 pm Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): On a point of 12.32 pm order, Mr. Speaker. The Public Administration Committee is meeting tomorrow to consider the circumstances Mr. Speaker: I have a very short—or relatively short— surrounding the elevation of Lord Ashcroft. We have statement to make. invited Lord Ashcroft and the Member for Richmond, The hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) raised a Yorks (Mr. Hague), but we have heard nothing. Is it not point of order yesterday about the statement last Thursday a terrible discourtesy to the Committee to be ignored in on high-speed rail. The statement was made first in the this way? [Interruption.] Lords by the Secretary of State at 11.39 am and then repeated in this House by the Minister of State at Mr. Speaker: Order. I am perfectly capable of dealing 12.17 pm. The hon. Gentleman’s point of order was not with the matter, and that is what I am about to do. The about the timing but about the fact that the text of the hon. Gentleman has made his point extremely clearly statement was not available until after the Minister of and placed his views on the record. He may not be State had spoken in this House. As Members will know, satisfied with this, but I have to say to him that that is a the practice to date has been that the text of a statement matter exclusively for the Committee. His views are now is not released by the Vote Office until the Minister has very well known. sat down. These arrangements are essentially for the Government, who supply the copies of the statements Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): On a point of to the Vote Office on condition that they will not be order, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much for the speedy released in advance. I believe that there was a way in which you have dealt with the issue that I raised, misunderstanding about this last Thursday. but is not the real reform that we need in the Palace of Westminster that Secretaries of State in the House of It is inevitable, with two departmental Cabinet Ministers Lords should be obliged to come to this Chamber to in the other place, that some statements will be made make statements to the democratically elected Members there before they are made in the House of Commons. and answer questions? However, it does seem illogical that the text of a statement already delivered in the Lords, and available from the Mr. Speaker: There was I thinking that I had satisfied Printed Paper Office there, is not available from the the hon. Gentleman’s appetite. He is an experienced Vote Office in this House. I am therefore asking the Leader Member of this House, and he knows that that is of the House to ensure that in future the text of statements another matter. It is an important matter, on which made in the Lords should be available from the Vote there has been some discussion and to which the House Office as soon as they are available in the Lords. will doubtless in due course return. I cannot, however, say any more about it today. I hope that he will be pleased with what he has got. The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Harman): Further to your statement, Mr. Speaker, of BILL PRESENTED course it makes absolute sense that if a statement has been given in the House of Lords, the written copy DEMENTIA STRATEGY BILL should be available in the Vote Office for Members of Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) this House even before the statement has been made Mr. Paul Burstow presented a Bill to require the Secretary here, so we strongly support the concern expressed by of State to publish and keep under review a strategy to my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) improve the provision of services for adults in England and your statement. It will all be sorted. with dementia and their carers; to require the Secretary of State to report annually to Parliament on the implementation of the strategy; to require local authorities, Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the Leader of the NHS and other bodies to act in accordance with the House. That is precisely the sort of co-operation relevant guidance issued by the Secretary of State; and that any Speaker wants to achieve. for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 23 April, and to be printed (Bill 90). 881 17 MARCH 2010 Organ and Tissue Donation 882 (Mandated Choice) Organ and Tissue Donation (Mandated or her views known. Again, that raises serious ethical Choice) issues about personal choice and an individual’s right to choose whether they want their organs to be used after Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order death. No. 23) I have worked closely with Mrs. Pat Hall from Lancashire, who has campaigned for many years to increase the 12.37 pm number of people on the organ donor register. Pat lost her son in the early 1990s, shortly after the register came Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): I beg to into force. He was on the register and had made his move, choice known to the family. He was able to help several That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a system of people through organ donation. I have discussed the mandated choice for the donation of organs and tissues; and for problem of presumed consent with Pat, and she explained connected purposes. that many campaigners were unhappy with it. She believes It is a magnificent achievement that in 2008-09 there that individuals should make an active decision to donate. were more than 3,500 organ donations in the UK. In Pat’s alternative is the mandated choice system, whereby addition, more than 4,000 corneas were donated, leading every UK citizen would be required by law to make a to 2,711 people having their sight restored. Tragically, in declaration, one way or the other, about whether they the same year, more than 1,000 died an avoidable death wished their organs to be used after death. By offering while awaiting a life-saving organ transplant. I believe the choice of saying yes or no, or leaving the decision to that we have a moral duty to reduce the number of the family, a person’s civil liberties are protected. Mandated avoidable deaths. The pertinent questions, therefore, are choice has been introduced in some countries, but the why we are allowing those deaths to occur and what we choice has been only between yes or no to organ donation. can do to change those sad statistics. The Bill proposes a third choice—essentially what we In a report published in January 2008, the organ have now—of leaving the decision to the family at the donation taskforce identified several barriers that mean time of death. There is, therefore, a status quo option, the UK is lagging behind other European countries which would make a difference by making it easier for when it comes to the number of transplants that take people to accept the proposal. place. Further research published by NHS Blood and Transplant shows that four out of 10 families refuse the The practicalities of a mandated choice system obviously request for organ donation, even when a deceased relative need to be considered. Initially, every adult will need to has signed the organ donor register. be approached and asked to make a choice. It would then to be necessary to ensure that individuals are asked With just 27 per cent. of the UK population signed at certain points during their lives, such as when they up to the register, the simple fact is that not enough receive a national insurance number or register with a people are saying yes to granting the gift of life through GP, or possibly when they obtain a driving licence. donation when they die. Surveys indicate that between When a person explicitly states their intentions, all 60 and 90 per cent. of the UK population support doubts about their wishes—and thus the wishes of a organ donation and personally want their organs to be dying patient—are removed. That safeguards health used to save a life, so why is it that just 27 per cent. have care professionals as they know exactly what their patient given their explicit consent? What are the barriers, and wants. It also removes the burden on the family when a why is that figure not nearer to the 60 to 90 per cent. relative dies. mark? Do people intend to go online and register but forget to do so, or are they simply too busy? Do they Reforming the current opt-in system to a mandated even know that there is an online registration process? choice system will increase the number of people registered That line of questioning is endless. as organ donors. By choosing to be an organ donor, we offer patients a second chance at life. I want a system One simple answer is that the current system needs to that reduces the number of avoidable deaths to an change. The opt-in system is voluntary and, by its absolute minimum and reduces waiting times for people nature, a barrier in itself, so the obvious question is: who need life-saving transplants. what are the alternatives? One is an opt-out system, whereby consent is assumed. Personal choice and the I am sure that we would all be prepared to accept an right to choose are fundamental in any personal decision. organ if we needed one to carry on living. If most are On organ donation, they should be paramount. A prepared to receive, I would expect most to be prepared system that assumes consent therefore carries moral to provide. Failing to reduce the number of avoidable and ethical dilemmas that cannot and should not be deaths is a tragedy and, worse, a preventable tragedy. I ignored. present the Bill to introduce a mandated choice system as the best way in which to reduce the number of With an opt-out system, medical professionals treating avoidable deaths. I hope that it will receive the support a dying patient would be put in a difficult position. of the House. They must broach the subject with the family, who would be forced to consider the issue at what is always an emotional and traumatic time. There would be many 12.44 pm instances when no discussion about organ donation had taken place, and the individual had not opted out. The Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I listened medical professional must then approach the family to with great interest to the proposal for a mandated arrange organ donation in the absence of active consent choice approach as outlined by the hon. Member for by the potential donor. Inevitably, there will be South Ribble (Mr. Borrow). I happen very much to circumstances in which the organs are used of an individual agree with organ donation, and when I pass on, if there who opposes organ donation, but has failed to make his are any bits that are still usable, the state is perfectly 883 Organ and Tissue Donation 17 MARCH 2010 884 (Mandated Choice) welcome to them—[Interruption.] I will not be drawn Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West [Lords] (Rob Marris). However, my concern is that mandated choice will Second Reading put people under moral pressure to acquiesce, even if they do not feel comfortable doing so. I am conscious The Comptroller of Her Majesty’s Household (Mr. John that the hon. Member for South Ribble realises how Spellar): I have it in command from Her Majesty the sensitive the matter is and that very strong emotions can Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having be generated, including for reasons of faith, especially been informed of the purport of the Cluster Munitions at the time of death. I applaud his intent, but it is (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords], has consented to place her nevertheless my view that our society and culture are prerogative, so far as it is affected by the Bill, at the still at a stage at which there is insufficient buy-in to the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. concept of organ donation. In some ways, we do a disservice to our society if we do not work towards 12.47 pm increasing the number of people who actively sign up. The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I beg to I do not seek to press the matter to a Division, move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. because that would be a bad use of time; I simply flag We are grateful to Her Majesty, Mr. Speaker. I hope my concern that it is easy to codify such things in an that I do not need to clarify for right hon. and hon. administrative way, but we have some way to go as a Members why the Bill is important, but it is perhaps society. I would prefer a mandatory development of an worth recalling that many thousands of people have understanding of the options, without having the paperwork been killed by cluster munitions in the 40 years since to go with that at this stage. they have been in regular use. Some 60 per cent. of Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. those killed or injured became casualties in the ordinary Ordered, business of their daily lives, rather than military activity. A third of those killed or injured were children. In That Mr. David S. Borrow, Jim Dobbin, Mr. Lindsay many ways, the submunitions that come from the cluster Hoyle, Mr. David Crausby, Bob Spink, Dr. Brian Iddon, munitions can be far more lethal and dangerous than Derek Twigg, Mr. Mark Hendrick and Geraldine Smith anti-personnel land mines, on which we have already present the Bill. taken action to stop using and to ban. Submunitions Mr. David S. Borrow accordingly presented the Bill. disperse across a wide area and many do not explode on Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on contact with the ground, leading to a far higher percentage Friday 23 April, and to be printed (Bill 91 ). of those engaged being killed. At least 15 countries have used cluster munitions, including the United Kingdom. Eighty-five countries have stockpiles, which run to some billions of cluster munitions around the world, and at least 24 countries have been affected by their use. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Before the Minister moves too far away from civilian casualties, will he ignore the Tory briefing on the Bill and put saving children’s lives and limbs well before saving British cluster bomb manufacturing jobs, which should be redirected to better effect? Chris Bryant: Unfortunately, I do not get Tory party briefings. If the hon. Gentleman is still getting them, there must be something very wrong with the Tory party machine. I wonder whether he is still getting UKIP briefings. In any case, if he wishes to pass them on to me, I would be more than happy to use them— [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) wishes to send them to me directly, that might be quicker. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): If the hon. Gentleman is getting the briefings, they might be described as unexploded briefs. On a more serious note, does the Minister agree that if cluster munitions were used in first-world countries rather than distant and impoverished third-world countries with weak international voices, there would be an outcry? We would never dream of allowing such munitions to be deployed here or in the US, but we are willing to allow those very dangerous devices to be used in far-off countries, where the collateral damage is rarely suffered by western civilian and military personnel. 885 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 886 [Lords] [Lords] Chris Bryant: That is not entirely true, because in Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): This some cases people working in non-governmental is an important issue. Although we congratulate Norway organisations, charities and development organisations on taking the initiative and it is pleasing to see Britain in other parts of the world have been affected. However, moving into line with many other countries, some the hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. Sometimes, we countries—China, Russia, Pakistan, Israel and the think that there has been peace because there has been US—continue to manufacture and probably use these peace in our backyard, but some of the most prolonged munitions. What is being done to try to bring on board usage of cluster munitions was in Europe’s backyard—in more signatories and what will we do to prevent financiers Kosovo. We have to be vigilant and ensure that we do and companies from producing and stockpiling those not think that by completing this legislative process in weapons? the next few weeks, we have solved the problem. Some countries will still have not ratified the convention, Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right: what we some have not signed up to it, and some are still want is a world without cluster munitions. We therefore stockpiling and using cluster munitions. hope that, in the end, every country will sign up to and ratify the convention and cease using cluster munitions. I shall run through the process that led to the Bill. By By signing up to the convention, they would also commit the beginning of the 21st century, everybody had started themselves to encourage others to do the same and to to recognise the significant problem in terms of fairness try to prevent the direct financing of the production and equity with the use of cluster munitions in warfare. and transfer of cluster munitions, as well as indirect For a long time, it has been recognised that everything financial support for them. That is what we have tried to in war is not always fair. In 1868, the St. Petersburg set out as clearly as possible in the Bill. It contains clear declaration renounced the use in time of war of explosive commitments on direct financing and we are keen to projectiles under 400 grams in weight. That was the first make progress as quickly as we can on an agreement on piece of legislation agreed by the great world powers of the indirect financing as well. the time that stated categorically any limit on what should or should not be used in war. The banning of Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) explosive or fulminating devices on the grounds of (Con): The Minister slightly skipped over the Government’s equity and fairness in war was a very important first change of heart. Initially we agreed to ban the dumb principle that led to the Hague conventions of 1899 and weapons, such as the BL755 and the M26, but we would 1907, the first of which banned hollow-point bullets continue to use the smart versions. That position has and chemical warfare, and continued with the 1925 now changed, but given that it was clearly thought at Geneva protocol to the Hague convention, which, in the time that the smart weapon had a role to play, has response to the use of mustard gas during the first the Minister received any representations from the Ministry world war, banned all chemical and biological warfare. of Defence about the effect that the Government’s The process continued all the way to the Landmines change of heart may have on our armed forces? Act 1998, which banned the use of anti-personnel land mines. There has been a constant process of attempts to Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise refine our view of a just way of waging war, compared the question of how the measure impacts on the armed with an unjust way. forces. The MOD has worked with clear and swift purpose to ensure that there is no conflict for individual In February 2007, the Norwegian Foreign Secretary members of our armed forces. In particular, in Committee issued the Oslo declaration, urging the countries of the we may wish to look at the interoperability questions as world to bring forward by the end of 2008 a convention outlined in clause 9. He is right in saying that we need to to prohibit the use, production, transfer and stockpiling take care to ensure that we have the right command of cluster munitions. It is a tribute not only to the work structure and orders in place for our personnel, so that of the Norwegian Government but to the international they are legally protected when they are operating in community that by 30 May 2008, at the Dublin diplomatic conflicts alongside personnel from other countries, which conference, it was possible to agree the convention that may not be signatories to the convention. we seek to put into legislative form today. Two elements were important in achieving that so speedily. First, there Mr. Ellwood rose— had been a long discussion about whether only so-called smart cluster munitions should be banned, or whether Bob Spink rose— both smart and dumb cluster munitions should be banned; it was concluded that it was the use of cluster Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con) rose— munitions in themselves that was the problem. That was the right conclusion, and it is good that we reached that Chris Bryant: I have a choice, but I will give way first accord. Secondly, the UK rightly had a change of to the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison). policy. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for effectively brokering the deal in Dublin Dr. Murrison: The Government are right to introduce and ensuring that we reached agreement on the convention the Bill, but I hope that the Minister is managing his that has now been signed up to and ratified by more expectations, for the reasons cited by my hon. Friend than 30 members. The last two members to ratify did so the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood). In only a few weeks ago. particular, I would mention the use of white phosphorus, which we abhor but which is being used against civilian Having brokered the deal, we were keen to move targets by states that should know better. forward as swiftly as we could in the UK to ensure that we relinquished and destroyed our remaining stockpile Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman has made the of cluster munitions as fast as possible. point as well as I could, so I need not elucidate. 887 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 888 [Lords] [Lords] Mr. Ellwood: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister has for North-East Milton Keynes (Mr. Lancaster) made rightly acknowledged the significant intervention by the reference to the BL755 and the M26 multiple rocket Prime Minister in 2008 to change Government policy. launch system, which are dumb munitions. There could That very much changed the climate of the negotiations be munitions from other countries—the United States—on in Dublin. He and other hon. Members have also British soil that will remain here after we have passed acknowledged the lead role that the Norwegian Government the Bill, and the US has not signed up to the convention. played in this cause over the years. Will he also acknowledge, How does the Minister respond to that dilemma? not least because it is St. Patrick’s day, the contribution played at the Dublin diplomatic conference by the former Chris Bryant: In fact, the US has been reviewing its Irish ambassador in this city—namely, Dáthí Ó position and it has decided that it will remove its Ceallaigh—who skilfully brought about a positive stockpile from the UK by 2013, so there will be no conclusion and was able to recruit the Prime Minister’s American cluster munitions based here. positive intervention very well? The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East referred to the hon. Member for North-East Milton Keynes as Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend makes a very fair gallant. I am sure that he is, but I think that, under the point. Indeed, I was going to describe how the Irish conventions of the House, it is only generals who are Government played a significant role in ensuring that referred to as gallant. we moved forward towards the convention. It is worth pointing out that many people were profoundly sceptical Mr. Ellwood: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You that we would arrive at a convention, or that any of the are giving me a look that suggests that this might not be major countries, such as the United Kingdom or France, a point of order, but you yourself have used the term would sign up. We need to pay significant tribute to all “gallant” when referring to an hon. Member. I think it those involved. absolutely proper that the Minister should be corrected When the 30th ratification took place on 16 February—in and that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for fact, both Burkina Faso and Moldova ratified the North-East Milton Keynes should be referred to in the convention on that date—the United Nations Secretary- proper way. General said that this “major advance on the global disarmament agenda…demonstrates Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the world’s collective revulsion at the impact of these terrible his point of order. I think, from recollection, that the weapons…during conflict and long after it has ended, they maim hon. Gentleman is right— and kill scores of civilians, including many children. They impair post-conflict recovery by making roads and land inaccessible to Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Which hon. Gentleman? farmers and aid workers.” That aspect is often forgotten, because the focus is Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Bournemouth, understandably on the loss of life. The effects of cluster East is correct on this point—[Interruption.] Order. munitions can be very indiscriminate because of the Members are getting far too excited, and it is only way they fall; they can damage water and electricity lunchtime. This matter should not detain us long, and it supplies and other elements that were not the direct certainly should not distract us from our consideration target of the military intervention. That is yet another of the Second Reading of the Cluster Munitions reason why we want to see them banned. (Prohibitions) Bill. I call the Minister. I shall briefly outline what the Bill does, although I am sure that hon. Members have already read it. Clauses Chris Bryant: I shall now give way to the hon. Member 1 to 4 bring in the new offences of using, producing, for Castle Point (Bob Spink). developing, acquiring, stockpiling, possessing or transferring directly or indirectly cluster munitions, and of making Bob Spink: As an engineer, perhaps I should be arrangements for others to do so. There is a clear referred to as “the oily and hon. Member for Castle definition of cluster munitions, which we might want to Point”. Will the Minister tell me what would happen if tease out during Committee stage, which will take place cluster bombs were to be used when our troops were on on the Floor of the House. The definition is the one combined operations with allies such as Pakistan or the that appears in article 2 of the convention. The Bill United States? Would our troops be prevented from provides for a prison term of up to 14 years or a fine. co-operating in the use of cluster bombs? Would they Those provisions are parallel to those set out in the be given legal protection if they were to co-operate? Landmines Act 1998. It also provides for certain defences that may be used. Those are set out in article 3 of the Chris Bryant: The hon. and oleaginous Member is convention. right to suggest that we must ensure that clear legal protection is available to our personnel when they are Mr. Lancaster: What does the Minister understand to operating alongside troops from countries that are not be the difference between cluster munitions and air-dropped signatories to and have not ratified the convention, and mines? when cluster munitions might therefore be used. I believe that the Bill provides for that. We have made it absolutely Chris Bryant: That is a specific issue that we ought to clear that, when the command and the control are ours, look at in Committee. The debates in the House of there will be no use of cluster munitions and that all the Lords addressed some of these issues, but that is a fair relevant parts of the treaty will apply. I suspect, however, point. The definitions in the Bill merely reflect the that this will be one of the areas that hon. Members will precise definitions in the convention, which is what want to tease out by means of amendments during every other country is adhering to. The difficulty of Committee stage next week. going down a different route from others is that it could 889 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 890 [Lords] [Lords] [Chris Bryant] for the countries where cluster munitions are still manufactured—and in some number—there is undoubtedly result in a degree of legal uncertainty when dealing with an economic issue that still needs to be addressed. other countries that are also signatories to, and have ratified, the convention. Mr. Cash rose—

Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the Minister be Mr. Ellwood rose— kind enough to tell me how many signatories and ratifications there are? My information might be slightly Chris Bryant: In front and then behind. out of date, because I am relying on a House of Commons Library note from February, but my understanding is Mr. Ellwood rose— that, at that time, the numbers were limited and the convention had not yet come into force. I want to get Mr. Speaker: Order. It would be useful to know to the constitutional position straight. whom the Minister is referring. I thought he had Mr. Cash in mind. Chris Bryant: I think I am right in saying that the number of countries that have signed the convention is Chris Bryant: No, I wish to give way to the hon. 104, and the number that have ratified it is 30. Hon. Member for Bournemouth, East first. Members might have spotted the fact that there are some significant omissions, and that a number of countries have neither signed nor ratified the convention. The Mr. Ellwood: Reverse seniority, Mr. Speaker. hon. Member for Bournemouth, East referred to some There could be a situation in which it is not possible of them earlier, and I shall come back to that point. In to pin down which individual is responsible, as it is the particular, seven EU member states—Estonia, Finland, state that is supporting the use of cluster munitions. Let Greece, Latvia, Poland, Romania and Slovakia—have us say that we sent a peacekeeping mission to Georgia, not yet signed or ratified. We are keen to encourage all which ran into cluster munitions used by Russia in those countries to sign as a matter of urgency. Abkhazia or South Ossetia. That would be an example of where the state had sponsored the use of them. How Mr. Cash: It is at that level that I am interested. It is does that fit into clause 2, where the offences are laid out? clear that there is pretty well universal support for these measures, and it is a bit worrying that some countries Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman will know that are not prepared to sign. Are they simply dragging their offences can be perpetrated only by a certain category heels, or are they not prepared to sign? of people, all of whom are listed in the Bill. Whether Russia was perpetrating the offence is neither here nor Chris Bryant: It varies enormously from country to there for the purposes of the UK legislation. It is country. Some countries are major manufacturers of certainly true that Russia is one country we would like cluster munitions, and they obviously see a financial to see as a signatory; for that matter, we would like to reward in continuing to produce them. Some do not see Georgia as a signatory as well. I talked about this accept that their military should be restricted from issue with my Russian counterpart on a recent visit to using cluster munitions. There are some significant Russia, but I have to say that I did not receive a very countries that fall into both those categories, not least warm response. the United States of America. There are others, however, that have never used cluster munitions and do not feel Mr. Cash: Will the Minister enlighten me as to whether the need to act. As I said, 104 countries have signed, I should be surprised that the European Union itself and that is a pretty hefty number. It includes France, has not managed to encourage all its member states to Germany and, of course, ourselves. All those countries go along with the proposals? It appears that it has intend to ratify the convention, but that is taking some rather failed in its persuasive powers—I thought the EU time. The convention comes into force when the was supposed to be almighty! 30th country ratifies it, which has already happened. Chris Bryant: This is where the hon. Gentleman goes Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister so badly wrong. He seems to ascribe omniscience, and I might have slightly different perceptions of the omnipresence and omnipotence to the EU, when we all EU, but one of the advantages that it could bring to believe that it should have clearly circumscribed bear is in the area of defence diversion activity. I am not competences, and this is not one of the areas where we sure whether this has been looked at yet. Is it possible believe that it should have a competence. If he wants that those eastern European states that produce cluster treaty renegotiations in the near future, we will see munitions could be helped to divert into other forms of where we get with that. On the serious point, it is not for production? That would be a laudable way for the EU the EU to persuade others to sign up to the convention, to operate. Will my hon. Friend look into that? but it is for us as signatories to try to persuade other countries to sign up and ratify because that is one of the Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend normally makes points commitments we make in the convention. on Europe with which I profoundly disagree, but he has just made a very fair point, on which I congratulate Dr. Murrison: I was slightly surprised to hear what him. I do not have the facts to hand on whether any of the Minister had to say about the European Union. It the countries that I have listed are large manufacturers has something called the European Defence Agency, of cluster munitions. I am not sure about Latvia or which I debated at some length with the Under-Secretary Greece, for example. It is undoubtedly right to say that of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham 891 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 892 [Lords] [Lords] and Stamford (Mr. Davies) in the Committee corridor Various defences are provided in the Bill, which derive two weeks ago. It has a whole string of things that it is from article 3 of the convention. The first deals with meant to do. It seems to me that persuading member destruction because it is essential that we have the states to adopt a particular line on munitions would be capacity and legal ability to destroy our stockpile. Secondly, very much in keeping with its extremely wide-ranging there is a defence in respect of training, detection clearance role. The Minister might like to have a further look at and, again, destruction, which would be necessary for the EDA to see whether this is an issue that it might like us to remove our stockpile and destroy it. Thirdly, as in to address. Otherwise, I fear that we will have to come article 21 of the convention, there is a defence relating back at a future date and examine exactly what the to interoperability, which is very important if we are not EDA is there to do. to expose our armed forces personnel to unnecessary legal damage. Chris Bryant: I understood from the more recent speeches by the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. and hon. Mr. Cash: Given that live ammunition is used on Friends that the Conservative party was now in favour training exercises in the UK—I have been on one or two of the European Defence Agency. This is not one of the myself—I wonder whether some of these munitions competences that we think the EU should have, but as I could be embedded in parts of the UK. What attempts have already said, we believe as signatories to the convention will be made to remove them and within what time that it is part of our obligation to try to ensure that the scale? whole world resiles from the use of cluster munitions, and we will continue to try to achieve that. Chris Bryant: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman In response to the hon. and gallant Member for is referring to cluster submunitions that might be lying North-East Milton Keynes, the convention is pretty around somewhere in the UK, still waiting to explode. clear about the definition of a mine as “a munition designed to be placed… on or near the ground or Mr. Cash: I was not thinking so much about the other surface area and to be exploded by… proximity”, stockpiling as about whether or not these munitions and therefore not by contact. The method of delivery is have been used for real in training exercises. I was not relevant. wondering whether these things could be buried in I wish to clarify to the hon. Member for Stone moorlands or other areas of the UK. (Mr. Cash) that I was slightly wrong in saying that the convention comes into force when the 30th signatory Chris Bryant: No, I am not aware of that. If I prove ratifies it; it comes into force on 1 August 2010, as long to be wrong, I will write to the hon. Gentleman, but I as the 30th ratification is reached. am pretty certain that that is not the case. I have a copy of the convention with me. It provides a Mr. Ellwood: We need further clarification of the series of different definitions under article 1 in relation definition, as what the Minister read out would include to a self-destruction mechanism or a self-deactivating land mines and touch on the problems and issues we mechanism, explaining what they mean. The convention face in the Falklands. We must be succinct about this; also defines cluster munition and explains what a otherwise, it will be very confusing as to what exactly we contaminated area means. Paragraph 12 of article 2 are talking about. defines a “mine” as “a munition designed to be placed under, on or near the ground Chris Bryant: The definitions are very clear in the or other surface area and to be exploded by the presence, proximity convention; I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman or contact of a person or a vehicle.” has had the opportunity to read it yet, but when he has, That is the specific definition in the convention. I think he will find that the definition of what we are talking about as a cluster munition is pretty clear. As I Mr. Drew: I would like to get something clear in my have said a couple of times, if he wants to tease these mind. Where we have been involved with other countries matters out by tabling amendments in Committee, I that might have obtained cluster munitions through our shall be happy to deal with any points then. military forces, is there an onus on us to ask them to destroy those cluster munitions? Is there anything in the Mr. Lancaster: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member Bill that could make that happen? for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) is right that we need some clarification. I should declare my interest as Chris Bryant: To be honest, I am not quite sure what a qualified bomb disposal officer, so I have a basic the answer is to that question. There are obviously understanding of these issues. Not all mines are initiated circumstances where we have used cluster munitions by proximity; many are initiated by contact. I am afraid and we might have used them in co-operation with that the explanation that the Minister just read out is other military forces in a series of different places. I not quite right. suppose it is possible for some cluster munitions that still theoretically belong to us to be present in some Chris Bryant: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman far-flung territory. I think that that is relatively unlikely, has read the convention either. He will note that what because we have tried to do everything in our power to we have tried to do, as clearly as possible, is to use the ensure that there are no free-wheeling British cluster definitions in the convention and transpose them directly munitions in the world, but in any event the Bill contains into UK legislation. I do not think that the definitions a measure relating to transparency and the need for us are wrong; they are pretty much universally accepted. If to publish all the information about our stockpile and he looks at schedule 1, he will see the clear definitions of the process of destroying it, and I think that that will cluster munitions and related terms set out there. prove helpful. 893 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 894 [Lords] [Lords] Mr. Ellwood: I am grateful to the Minister for giving all the work in every country in the world. We do have away again. I think that our interventions are helping to considerable expertise, and we need to develop more tease out some of the issues. expertise with other countries, because one of the problems This goes to the heart of what we are trying to is that only a relatively limited number of people are achieve. We are trying to prevent future generations able to do this work. We need much more international from stepping on cluster munitions, mines, or whatever capacity, capability and will-power. we wish to call them. That is, of course, morally right, but there is a huge question about the legacy—about Mr. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): My hon. Friend what has happened in the past, and what we are doing rightly drew attention to DFID’s mine clearance work, to help countries that contain thousands upon thousands and I agree with him that we have a honourable record, of mines for which we, or our allies, are responsible. but is it not one of the tragedies that development aid What the Bill lacks, in my view, is a provision that takes money must be diverted to mine or cluster munition account of recent history, and requires us to take clearance? responsibility and—albeit perhaps in only a small way, and gradually—make up for what we have done in the Chris Bryant: Absolutely. After the first world war, past. when mustard gas was used although everyone had thought it had been abolished by the Hague conventions, Chris Bryant: You seem to be getting a very sore health budgets had to be used to make up for the throat this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, given all your coughing deficiencies of war. I think that the lessons that we learn during lengthy interventions. in this regard are important for the future. My biggest The hon. Gentleman has made a fair point. It is right anxiety is that some countries are still committed to the that we should want to rectify what we, the United use of cluster munitions, and to expanding their production Kingdom, have done around the world and, for that in order to sell more of them to other countries which matter, what other countries have done around the have still not signed the convention. That is why the Bill world, and to abolish that legacy. However, I do not is so necessary. It is another brick in the wall, a further believe that such action need be specified in the Bill, means of ensuring that we secure our ultimate goal of a because it does not require legislation. cluster munitions-free world. I hope that what we do Many Members have raised with me, and with other today will contribute to that. Foreign Office Ministers, the use of cluster munitions in Sri Lanka. Last year, through the Department for Dr. Murrison: I am grateful to the Minister, who is International Development, we devoted £1 million to being extremely generous in giving way. Some of the helping to clear some of that unexploded artillery. We non-signatories to whom he referred are partners in have done similar work in Afghanistan, Angola, Azerbaijan, NATO and the European security and defence policy. Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Increasingly, commands are joint, so how will the Bill Laos, Lebanon, Mozambique, Somaliland and Sudan. affect British officers who find themselves commanding However, change of that kind does not require legislative forces from countries that are non-signatories? Will it change. While it is not for us to take on every country in not render their actions ultra vires? the world, as signatories to the convention we are determined to do all that we can to eradicate this Chris Bryant: The interoperability rules in both the danger, just as we followed our commitment to the convention and the Bill deal with precisely those abolition of anti-personnel landmines with interventions circumstances, although the hon. Gentleman is right to in many parts of the world. draw attention to the fact that people need legal certainty, whether they are commanding officers or under the Mr. Lancaster: Do not conflicts tend to be fashionable? command of others. Clearly a member of the British When I was in Bosnia, we were involved in a great deal armed forces who was on a single platform in an operation, of de-mining activity. As soon as the Kosovo conflict and was in command, would not be able to call in the started, many non-governmental organisations and charities use of a cluster munition. However, I assure the hon. that had been working in Bosnia moved to Kosovo. The Gentleman that the matter is fully covered by clause 9, same happened with Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of and is also adumbrated in the convention. the funds, and therefore the NGOs, tend to move with the conflict, and all too often the legacy of what happened Dr. Murrison: I suppose it is a fine point, but it is one 15 years earlier is lost once the conflict has moved to that could arise in practice. I do not suggest for a another country. That is something that we simply moment that a British officer would call in the use of cannot allow to continue. cluster munitions that might be available because of the forces under his command, but they might nevertheless Chris Bryant: I agree. In 2003, when I went to Bosnia be used at a sub-unit level. Would the officer have any on the armed forces parliamentary scheme, we saw how responsibility in that event, or would he be absolved of much work remained to be done. I believe that Bosnia is responsibility? one of the most mined places on the planet, but because the conflict has moved on, we are now worrying about Chris Bryant: Whenever we build an international other countries and are no longer committed to the coalition—and the fact is that virtually every time British work in Bosnia. In fact, two of the more recent British troops are engaged in warfare nowadays, they are engaged casualties were caused by anti-personnel landmines rather in an international coalition; I cannot think of a than engagement. circumstance in which that would not be the case—we A great deal of de-mining is needed in much of Latin must ensure that there are proper national caveats, a America—large chunks of Colombia, for instance—and clear demarcation of responsibility, and an acceptance in nearly every African country, but we cannot take on of the different caveats that apply. 895 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 896 [Lords] [Lords] Mr. Cash rose— Chris Bryant: I think that that falls somewhat outside the context of the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman wants to Chris Bryant: I am happy to go on giving way, although make a fuller contribution during the debate, I will have this is beginning to feel more like a Committee stage an opportunity, with the permission of the House, to than a Second Reading debate. respond to his question in terms when I reply to the debate. However, I am, of course, always happy to take Mr. Cash: I am grateful to the Minister for giving us as many interventions as necessary to fulfil the needs of so much of his time. He mentioned clause 9 in response the House. to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member Let me make a few final points. First, we are in the for Westbury (Dr. Murrison), who suggested that a process of destroying our stockpile. We had 38 million British officer might be compromised by engagement cluster munitions; we have destroyed 14 million and we with others in what the clause defines as an “international intend to move as swiftly as possible so that we can military operation”. The officer would, in fact, be exonerated destroy the remainder of our stockpile. As I have said, if the armed forces of an ally were engaged with cluster because of the review in which the United States has munitions, but that would not solve or prevent the engaged, it is already committed to withdrawing all of problem. its stockpile in the UK by 2013. Members have referred to European Union states Chris Bryant: The point is that the convention on and NATO states that have not signed the convention. cluster munitions allows a defence in relation to Eight NATO states have not signed, including Turkey interoperability. That is laid out clearly in the convention, and the USA. The major users and producers that have and we have mirrored it in the Bill. How this works in not yet signed include Brazil, China, India, Israel, Pakistan, operation, however, will be a matter for the Chief of the Russia and the USA, and we will continue our diplomatic Defence Staff, who has already written to make clear efforts both through defence attachés and our embassies the precise situation in respect of the armed forces. One in those countries to try to ensure that we move to of the things that we have of necessity learned over the universal ratification. Two countries that are heavily past 10 years is that it is important to ensure that there affected have not yet ratified, which seems odd: Vietnam is no legal peril for our armed forces. Moreover, if we and Cambodia. Perhaps closer to home, in a sense, can achieve a situation in which all our allies are operating 26 out of the 53 Commonwealth countries have yet to without cluster munitions, we will be in a better world. sign. That is a long list of countries, and I am sure Mr. Ellwood: I see that fresh horses have arrived in Members would not want me to trouble them by reading the Speaker’s Chair, so I hope we will be able to continue it out in full, but I am more than happy to provide the with interventions as before. list to anyone who wishes to see it. I hope we will be able to move forward with this Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I legislation in unanimity. It will be interesting to hear the understand the hon. Gentleman’s remark, but I should debate this afternoon, as it will be very different from also remind all Members that the clock is ticking, and the debate we would have had five years ago, when more Back Benchers are keen to take part in the debate. Members would have argued that we should be able to retain the use of cluster munitions for the protection of Mr. Ellwood: The Minister mentioned NATO, which our military personnel. I am very grateful to the Ministry is the bedrock and cornerstone of our security policy. of Defence for moving forward so swiftly in changing What discussions has he had with NATO to see whether the way in which it operates. I also hope that by putting an agreement on cluster munitions can be found for the these measures on the statute book and encouraging very reasons that were mentioned earlier? other countries to move forward to ratification, we will ensure that we have a fairer and more peaceful world. Chris Bryant: I have not personally been involved in any discussions with NATO on this, but I think the hon. Gentleman is pointing in the wrong direction as to 1.35 pm where an agreement is needed. The first step is to try to secure universal acceptance of the convention. That Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): We welcome would mean there is no peril for anybody; there would the Bill, and it will have our support as it passes through be no moral peril as well as no legal peril from being the House. The Minister alluded to the hideous injuries indirectly involved, through other personnel, in the use that have been inflicted on large numbers of civilians in of cluster munitions. That is why it is important that different parts of the world—usually in some of the while there are still signatories and non-signatories, poorest countries—by the use of cluster bombs. As the article 21 of the convention should make it clear that, Minister knows, the problem arises from the fact that notwithstanding article 1 on the list of prohibitions, although these weapons are designed to explode on personnel of a signatory country could engage in military contact with an enemy vehicle or some other hard co-operation and operations with personnel from non- structure, there is a high rate of failure. The unexploded signatory countries. Otherwise, I think there would have submunition lies on the ground and can then be triggered off been legal peril. when a person picks it up or comes into contact with it. I take on board the Minister’s comment that the Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): The Minister mentions MOD has been reflecting on its long-held previous moral peril. Will he explain to the House why the 36 position on their use and has now come to a different people who are clearing the minefields in the Falklands view. I hope he will understand, however, why I should are from Zimbabwe, as I know that his Government like him to use some of his concluding remarks to offer would very much like to have those African people a bit more information on the outcome of the Government’s working in Africa? analysis that has now led them to take a different view 897 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 898 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr. David Lidington] being developed that would give the Army the tools they would need in such circumstances, or do the on the military utility of cluster munitions from that Government conclude that the risk of that happening is they and previous Governments held when the issue has simply too small for such planning to be necessary? been previously debated. I am aware, for example, that I turn briefly to financing, which the Minister commented distinguished retired military officers have said in speeches on but not in much detail. He pointed out that the to the House of Lords that, having reflected very carefully Government are taking action to comply with the on the issue, they are now convinced that these munitions convention by outlawing the direct financing of cluster are of little practical use to British forces as they go munitions. Some signatory countries, although not all, about their work on behalf of the country. are going further and introducing legislation to prohibit indirect financing, as well. My understanding from the Chris Bryant: I do not think the issue is whether they background briefing is that one of the prime reasons might be of limited, or extensive, use; the issue is about why the Government have chosen not to go down that disproportionate use. route is simply the complexity of trade and of financial instruments these days. Such complexity would make it Mr. Lidington: The Minister makes a fair point, but very difficult not just for regulatory authorities but for let me explain what I hope to hear more of when he companies themselves to be certain whether or not they winds up the debate. I want him to flesh out in a little are in some way involved in an industrial process that, more detail than we have hitherto heard how the at the end of the day, is concerned with the manufacture Government have come to make their analysis on or supply of cluster munitions. However, I note that disproportionality and have reached the conclusion that Switzerland, for example, which has a very sophisticated the balance of the scales now lies very definitely in financial services sector, has decided to legislate on favour of an outright ban. While expressing a shared indirect financing. Can the Minister spell out in a bit concern with the British Government about the more detail why this Government take a different view? humanitarian impact of cluster munitions, the United A number of my hon. Friends referred in interventions States has already publicly stated the following in a to interoperability and the position of British troops 2008 State Department statement of American policy: engaged in joint operations with allied countries that “Cluster munitions have demonstrated military utility. Their have not subscribed to the cluster munitions convention. elimination from US stockpiles would put the lives of its soldiers Does the Bill provide sufficient protection for members and those of its coalition partners at risk. Moreover, cluster of the British forces and for civilians, including contractors’ munitions can often result in much less collateral damage than staff, working under military discipline who are deployed unitary weapons, such as a larger bomb or larger artillery shell would cause, if used for the same mission.” on such joint operations? The Minister is right to say that a statutory defence is written into clause 9, but I It is important that the Government spell out with hope he can assure the House that this has been thoroughly great clarity why they have come to a different conclusion discussed with our senior military commanders, and from that reached by the Government of the United that he can say in terms that the Chiefs of Staff are States in respect of the safety of their armed forces. As content that the clause provides all the necessary protection. the Minister indicated by saying that the original stock held in this country was some 38 million cluster munitions, On stockpiles, the convention imposes an eight-year these weapons have been part of the armoury of the deadline for a state party to dispose of all stocks of British armed forces for many years. Do the Government cluster munitions, but the Bill makes no explicit provision believe that a ban would in any way seriously impair the for this. We have the Government’s undertaking to the effectiveness of our armed forces, and will this ban—with House, but there is nothing in the Bill. There is no all the humanitarian gains that it undoubtedly will clause to impose a duty on the Secretary of State to bring—at the same time add to the risks posed to our meet that eight-year deadline. Why not? The convention soldiers as they carry out the orders given to them by also, as I read it, requires state parties to destroy all the Government of the day? stockpiles that lie within their jurisdiction. Do the Government interpret that duty as excluding or including My understanding is that the original purpose of stockpiles held on British soil by allied—in this case, we cluster munitions was to provide the means for an are pretty much talking about United States—armed effective counter-attack against a large mass of enemy forces? The Government say they have had an assurance vehicles. I can see why, in military terms, this made from Washington that any stocks held on bases here some sense in the context of cold war planning against will be withdrawn by 2013, I think the Minister said. a possible attack on western Europe from the Warsaw pact. Cluster munitions were available to us in more indicated assent. recent years and we chose not to use them—for example, Chris Bryant during Operation Telic in Iraq. However, when my noble Friend Lord Attlee, who served as a reservist in Mr. Lidington: That was a measure of reassurance, Iraq, spoke on this matter in the House of Lords, he but clarity on the legal point would also be helpful. pointed out that we did not need to deploy cluster My last point on stockpiles concerns clause 8, which munitions there because we enjoyed absolute air superiority. provides a statutory defence for members of visiting I therefore seek some assurance from the Minister regarding forces who possess cluster munitions or move them in what would happen if British troops were asked on or out of the United Kingdom. However, as the some future occasion to deploy in comparable Government’s explanatory notes point out, no such circumstances, in which they might have to face a conflict defence is offered to a British citizen who assisted with with an enemy controlling large numbers of vehicles the movement of cluster munitions out of the UK. and might not have the air supremacy we enjoyed in Perhaps this point needs to be explored further in Iraq. Is an alternative weapons system available or Committee, but does that in any way put at risk, for 899 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 900 [Lords] [Lords] example, a civilian contractor working at a foreign delivering on the 2008 convention on cluster munitions military base? Given the litigious age we live in now, and, as the United Nations Secretary-General has said, could this conceivably be extended to bring air traffic helps to demonstrate controllers within the remit of a potential criminal “the world’s collective revulsion at the impact of these terrible offence? We need to be satisfied on how the detail of the weapons”. Bill will apply when we are talking about criminal That has already been referred to by my hon. Friend the offences and penalties. Minister. I have three further points to make about particular clauses. On clause 2, which defines the scope of the I have been very concerned for a number of years criminal offences, my understanding is that such actions about the deaths of and injuries to innocent civilians taken within the United Kingdom will be offences during and after conflicts where cluster munitions have whoever is responsible for committing them, unless that been used. I have tabled a number of parliamentary person is covered by a statutory defence, but that things questions and early-day motions on the issue, and I done outside the territory of the United Kingdom are became the Member in charge of Lord Dubs’ Bill on offences only if they are carried out by British citizens this subject when it reached this place. The Government or British companies. To my mind, on my reading of the are to be congratulated on the leading role that they Bill, that leaves open the question of foreign nationals have played, especially in the final conference in the living either temporarily or permanently in the United Oslo process, which was held in Dublin in May 2008. I Kingdom, Commonwealth citizens in that position, agree with the Minister that the Prime Minister’s and, for example, people living in Northern Ireland personal efforts at that time have been acknowledged by who are entitled to declare themselves as Irish, rather all close observers of that process, but it was not always than British, citizens. It is not clear from the explanatory thus. The Minister said that if we had been having this notes why this distinction has been made between a debate some five years ago, it would have been a very liability for offences committed within the UK, and a different debate, but I should tell him that that would different liability for offences committed outside British have been the case three years ago—I know that because soil. That strikes me as somewhat odd. I secured an Adjournment debate in this Chamber on 23 November 2006. Clause 33(3) refers to the possibility of the Government extending the Bill’s provisions to British overseas territories. In that debate, I made the case for our Government Is that in fact the Government’s intention, and if so, to renounce the use of cluster munitions, destroy the how quickly do they intend to act? Do Ministers foresee stockpiles and take a lead in the international community any problem arising in respect of overseas territories in seeking a global ban—that is, in effect, what this Bill where a large part of the land might be made available will help to achieve. I did so because of the danger to to an allied power for use by their military facilities? civilians that such weaponry presents. That danger first Ascension Island and Diego Garcia are two obvious occurs at the time of attack when the weaponry is used examples. in residential areas; the bomblets from the main bomb carpet-bomb an area about the size of three football Finally, I note that clause 29 would give the Government pitches, tearing to bits everybody in that area, military an enabling power to modify not only this Bill once it is or civilian. We know that the UK only ever used these enacted, but any measure passed by one of the devolved weapons against military targets, but we also know that Parliaments or Assemblies in order to take account of sometimes they have been used in densely populated future changes to the convention that might take place. residential areas, with the inevitable loss of life and I could swallow that if we were talking about minor injury to innocent children, women and men. Some drafting changes to a convention—the sort of thing other countries have used cluster munitions without that in terms of domestic legislation might be represented discrimination and without concern for the humanitarian by a consolidation Bill. I accept that if this convention consequences. is to be modified in the future, a huge amount of international negotiation will be required and a widespread As the Minister and others have said, the initial international consensus will have to be reached before impact is not the worst aspect of cluster bomb use. such amendments can be agreed. None the less, it is an Many of the bomblets do not work properly, they fail to important principle that Governments should not take explode on immediate impact and are left on the ground for themselves excessive powers through primary legislation after hostilities have ended, to be trodden on by farmers to modify other primary legislation simply by Orders in returning to their fields, to be pulled up when families Council. Unless the Government provide a good are clearing away rubble from their damaged houses, or justification for that, we may wish to return to it during even to be picked up as possible playthings by children, later stages of the Bill’s consideration. who are attracted by their shape and shine. Cluster munitions remain lethal. Having made those detailed points, I wish to conclude by repeating the Opposition’s support for the I was supported in that Adjournment debate by my Bill and for the humanitarian objectives that lie behind hon. Friends the Members for Sunderland, South it. We wish it well, and we will seek to debate it with a (Mr. Mullin) and for Stroud (Mr. Drew), but in response view to improving it further as it proceeds through the the then Minister of State in the Ministry of Defence, House. my right hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram), did not adopt the same positive and humanitarian approach in 1.51 pm 2006 as my hon. Friend the Minister for Europe has Mr. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): It gives me great done in opening today’s debate. pleasure to contribute to this debate on an important Indeed, the line that the then Minister of State came piece of legislation that enables us to play our part in up with closely reflected what the hon. Member for 901 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 902 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr. Martin Caton] failure rate was 6.5 per cent. even for those cluster munitions. Given that each cluster bomb carries about Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) says is the current American 145 submunitions, we are talking about nine or 10 of position. The then Minister of State described the UK’s those bomblets remaining lethal. The numbers in which cluster munitions as cluster munitions are used mean that we are talking “lawful weapons that provide a unique capability against certain about hundreds of thousands of deadly pieces of ordnance. types of legitimate military target.” That clarity of vision and willingness to act is cause He went on to say: for celebration, as is the recognition that there was a “Our military commanders judge the degree of force to employ head of steam in the Oslo process that could deliver an to achieve the mission, subject always to strict compliance with international agreement that would constitute a major international humanitarian law. advance on the global disarmament agenda. The speed We believe that that is a sufficiently adequate body of law. It of progress on this issue across the world since the start puts considerable constraints on the use of cluster munitions.” of the Oslo process has been remarkable. As the Minister To be fair, by the time of that debate Government has said, the convention will come into force on 1 August policy had moved on from its previous blanket defence because on 16 February it reached the 30 ratifications of the use of all cluster munitions in our arsenal to a needed as a trigger, and that is another cause for celebration. differentiation between dumb cluster munitions and When we rightly pay tribute to those who have helped smart cluster munitions. The former would be phased to achieve the rapid advances of the past couple of out because they had no self-destruct mechanism if years, we must recognise that the case against cluster they failed to explode on impact or had no target- munitions is far from a new one. As the Minister said, discriminatory capability. It was argued that the smart cluster bombs have been around since the second world munitions had those things and, thus, did not present war, but they raised serious concerns when they were the same level of danger to civilians. The then Minister used extensively by the US during the Vietnam war; of State said that villages were carpet-bombed with cluster munitions, “a total ban on the use of all types of submunition would have an some of which were designed deliberately not to explode adverse impact on the UK’s operational effectiveness.”—[Official on impact, so that they created land mine zones on the Report, 23 November 2006; Vol. 453, c. 802.] cheap. How things have moved on in less than three years. I Revulsion at the consequences of the use of such congratulate Ministers on being prepared to reconsider weaponry led in the early 1970s to calls for an international their position in the light of evidence. ban. In 1974, Algeria, Austria, Egypt, Lebanon—that It was not just the view on cluster weapons themselves seems painfully ironic when one recalls its people’s that changed over the following few months; the UK recent experience of cluster munitions—Mali, Mauritania, position on what was the best way of dealing with the Mexico, Norway, Sudan, Sweden, Switzerland, Venezuela humanitarian debate about the future of cluster munitions and Yugoslavia jointly put forward a document that also altered. By the time of my debate, Norway had said included a section headed “Anti-personnel fragmentation that it intended to lead an initiative outside the UN weapons”. It said: review arrangement for conventional weapons. Canada “Anti personnel cluster warheads or other devices with many had taken the same approach in securing the land mine bomblets, which act through ejection of a greater number of treaty 10 years before, using the so-called Ottawa process. small-calibred fragments or pellets to be prohibited for use.” In my Adjournment debate, I had urged the Government Sadly, it has taken another 30-odd years even to begin to join actively in the new Oslo process. The then to turn that humane call into reality. Thankfully, that is Minister said that the UN review conference was the what we are helping to do today. approach most likely to achieve “real humanitarian benefits”. Thankfully, that view was changed within Over those 36 years, the evidence has accumulated weeks or months of that debate, and the UK became about what devastation cluster munitions have wreaked increasingly engaged in the Oslo process and came to on the lives of innocent families and communities. Now play an increasingly important and beneficial role in it. 22 countries have been affected by cluster munition As interested observers noted at the time, the change contamination with particular problems of unexploded of heart seemed to come out of a robust debate within ordnance in Indochina, Afghanistan, Iraq and, of course, Government, with the Department for International Lebanon. Development championing a ban, the Ministry of Defence The charity Handicap International produced a report wanting to hang on to so-called smart munitions and documenting more than 10,000 known civilian casualties the Foreign Office eventually coming down on the side from cluster munitions, but the charity believes that the of radical action. When the Minister winds up, he true figure is more likely to be 10 times that. Most of might like to enlighten the House on exactly what the world has woken up to that, and the rest, I believe, happened in those robust discussions. will wake up to it. We owe a huge debt of gratitude for that fact to the work of the Cluster Munitions Coalition, Chris Bryant: He might not. which works on the international stage and in the UK through its lead partner, Landmine Action—now to be Mr. Caton: I suspected as much. called Action on Armed Violence. They have done a What I believe happened was that the Government fantastic job in mobilising civil society to push forward came to realise two things. The first was that the failure the cause both here and across the globe. rate of so-called smart munitions was still very poor, It is great that the Bill went through the House of leaving war zones littered with the equivalent of hundreds Lords with massive cross-party support and I warmly of thousands of small land mines. In an answer to a welcome what the Opposition spokesman has said this written question after my debate, I was advised that the afternoon. Now we need it to complete its legislative 903 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 904 [Lords] [Lords] passage within the next few days, to allow our country support from the local population has been a vital part to ratify the convention as soon as possible so that we of our operations. Our experience in recent years in can participate as a full player at the first meeting of both Iraq and Afghanistan has proved—if proof were state parties in November. needed—that the civilian deaths make it much more There are a few points that my hon. Friend the difficult to undertake that process of winning hearts Minister might like to clarify when he winds up. He has and minds. When a country is trying to rebuild its told us that our stockpiles are being destroyed, and that agricultural production and economic development, the is very welcome, and the Government have also made it litter of cluster bombs makes it difficult to undertake clear that foreign stockpiles of cluster munitions will be basic food production, and rebuilding the infrastructure removed from the UK and its territories by 2013. Has is far too much of a challenge. To be frank, it is a that process started and is it the Government’s intention challenge that such countries can do without. that it should be irreversible? There is also a strong argument that cluster munitions, Will my hon. Friend tell us a little more about what as well as being dangerous to civilians, are not militarily the Government are doing to promote universal adherence effective. I understand that 78,000 were used in Kosovo, to the convention as per article 21? He has mentioned but they destroyed 30 only major items of military trying to persuade the European Union, he has mentioned equipment, so they do not exactly have a successful our NATO partners and he has mentioned our military record, either. Commonwealth partners, but what are the British Of course, there is also the human cost of what these Government doing to get those who have not signed up munitions do. I recently had the opportunity to visit to do so as quickly as possible? Are the Government Chechnya as part of a delegation with the estimable going to initiate targeted military-to-military dialogue Lord Judd and the all-party group on human rights. with states that are not party to the convention? Although that was a fascinating and perhaps somewhat This vital Bill is necessary to help make an historically depressing visit in terms of human rights, one of the significant convention work. This really is a major step high points was going to speak to the children in local forward for the international law on weapons treaties. It schools and seeing how they are trying to rebuild the covers both functioning and malfunctioning cluster future of that country. Having said that, seeing with munitions and gives a clear, straightforward definition one’s own eyes children who are amputees—who have of the weapons that we are talking about. It strengthens lost limbs—as a result of the cluster munitions that and expands victim assistance obligations, attributes were heavily used by Russia in the conflict in the 1990s special responsibilities for the clearance of explosive brings home what a travesty they are and what a lasting remnants of war to state parties and includes a requirement impact they have. As has been said, this is not just about to promote support for the treaty. the killing that is done but about the maiming and the loss of limbs, which obviously have an impact throughout Notwithstanding the list that my hon. Friend the a person’s life. That is particularly difficult to think Minister gave us in his opening remarks, going back to about when children are involved. the St. Petersberg declaration, renunciation of the right to use certain types of weaponry is still exceptional. The Minister talked about the just way of waging Every time we make a decision to do so, it is an advance war. How one can have a just war is a moral dilemma for civilisation. we often discuss, but we have now concluded that certain types of munition and arsenal are not just and that they should not be used. Excellent progress has 2.3 pm been made on land mines and their use internationally, Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I begin by which is now much reduced. I hope that that success saying that my party, as it was in the other place, is very will be repeated in the case of cluster munitions. supportive of the Bill and will support its Second We have heard other appalling weapons mentioned Reading today. I pay tribute to all those who have today, in particular the white phosphorus that has been campaigned for the convention on cluster munitions used by the US, particularly in Falluja in Iraq— and for the Bill to ratify it, in particular, as has been mentioned, the Cluster Munition Coalition and Landmine Mr. Ellwood: The Israelis. Action. I also pay tribute to the work that my noble Friend Lord Garden, who sadly is no longer with us, Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman corrects me—the did on this issue. If he were here today, he would be very US was seen to use it in Falluja, but Israel has also been pleased to see the progress that the Bill is making. using it in recent conflicts. We have seen in recent weeks As we have heard, of people killed by cluster munitions, the BBC reports about the horrendous impact in terms the vast majority are civilians—the various briefings of birth defects that is being felt years later. The rate of that I have read give estimates of anything between birth defects in Falluja is 13 times that in Europe. The 85 per cent. and 98 per cent. That figure alone makes it legacy of the weapons used in a conflict and their entirely unjustifiable to use such weapons on a war impact years later are important. Our responsibility for footing. The killing of civilians is always a tragedy and these weapons, which we have used in the past, was the record of cluster bombs in doing that means that raised earlier in the debate. It is right that we take our they are just wrong—they should not be part of a share of responsibility for clearing up the mess that we responsible, civilised country’s arsenal. We cannot justify left behind. weapons that end up killing civilians in such huge I welcome the Bill, although I regret that it has taken numbers. us so long to get to this stage. The hon. Member for Apart from the moral argument, there is the argument Gower (Mr. Caton) outlined the timeline of the struggle about counter-productivity. Increasingly in the aftermath to take us to this point. The global movement for a ban of the conflicts in which we have been involved, securing on cluster munitions started in the late 1990s. The Oslo 905 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 906 [Lords] [Lords] [Jo Swinson] Defence has not always been entirely forthcoming in divulging details of its activities on that island. How do declaration of February 2007 launched the diplomatic the Government plan to ensure that the US will comply process that led to the cluster munitions convention’s with the law, in order to ensure that we meet our being adopted in May 2008. In December, the Government international obligations? introduced the Bill. Back in 2006, my hon. Friend the On Second Reading in the House of Lords, Baroness Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) introduced a Kinnock said that she would speak to her colleagues in private Member’s Bill on the issue, but unfortunately the Government about possible verification procedures. the Government did not support it. As has been mentioned, That is important if we are to have confidence that we Lords Dubs and Elton also introduce a private Member’s are not simply putting a bit of legislation on the statute Bill in the other place in 2006. Again, the Government book, but passing a Bill that will be meaningful and will did not support it. lead to the destruction of stockpiles. Verification is very Sadly, it has not been easy to get the Government on important in that regard. side. In the past, the Government have argued that there is a difference between smart and dumb cluster munitions Clause 9 relates to article 21 of the convention, on and that they should be allowed to keep the smart ones. interoperability, which the hon. Member for Aylesbury I remember sitting here in Question Time listening to (Mr. Lidington) mentioned. The clause will allow UK Ministers defend smart cluster munitions. They argued armed forces to participate in military actions in coalitions that smart cluster munitions had a high success rate—but alongside states that are not party to the convention. As even those killed civilians indiscriminately. I am glad we have heard, those states include the US, Russia, that the Government have finally, belatedly, accepted Brazil, India, Pakistan, China and Israel. Clearly, it is that the right thing to do is to ban all of them. important to protect members of UK’s armed forces in I am sure that all Members hope that the Bill will be cases where they inevitably have to work with states passed without undue delay, because this November we that, unfortunately, still choose to deploy cluster munitions. have the first meeting of the states parties to the convention, On Second Reading in another place, Baroness Kinnock and ratification will give us greater influence in encouraging said that she could: other states to do so. I am pleased to hear of the progress that has already been made on destroying the “reassure the House that, in compliance with the convention, no UK national will request the use of cluster munitions when the UK’s stockpiles of cluster munitions, with 30 million decision to do so is within their exclusive control.”—[Official already having been destroyed. However, I have a few Report, House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 994.] questions about the Bill to which I hope the Minister will respond when he sums up the debate. I understand that guidelines will be drawn up for our armed forces to set out clearly how that is to be understood First, on the stockpiling of cluster munitions on UK and operationalised, but will the Minister provide further territory, as per article 3 of the convention, the Minister clarification? Obviously, we do not want our service has said today that all cluster munitions will be removed personnel to be in a difficult legal position when they from UK territory by 2013. However, Lord Malloch-Brown are in the heat of battle, but neither do we want a used slightly different wording in the past, which was situation in which the British armed forces can do repeated by Baroness Kinnock in December, when she everything but pull the trigger, so to speak, when cluster said that, eight years after ratification, munitions are used in joint operations. I hope that the “there would be no permanent stockpiles of cluster munitions on Minister will assure the House today that all coalition UK territory”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 995.] partners will be urged, at the strategic planning stage, not to put UK nationals in the position of having to As has already been noted, that is not in the Bill, and I request the use of cluster munitions, even when the am interested to know why. I want to challenge the decision to do so is not within their exclusive control. Minister on whether the expectation that stockpiles will have been removed after eight years represents a firm On ratification by other states, I understand that in commitment. I should also like to know about the use December the Foreign and Commonwealth Office wrote of the word “permanent”. I understand that the Bill to all Commonwealth Foreign Ministers to urge them prohibits the transfer of cluster munitions, so we would to sign the convention. It would be helpful to have an not expect there to be any non-permanent stockpiles update on what responses have been received so far. either. On indirect financing, I understand that the convention We also have to consider Diego Garcia, which has does not mention financing, but that the Government already been mentioned. The wording that Baroness are taking measures to prevent the financing of the Kinnock used regarding stockpiling on UK territory development and production of cluster munitions, and was that I welcome the Bill’s provisions to prohibit such direct “States Parties are required to destroy all stockpiles of cluster financing. The Government have also announced measures munitions under their ‘jurisdiction and control’.”—[Official Report, to prevent indirect financing, as was outlined in the House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 1020.] statement of 7 December 2009. I welcome the commitment She also said that US stockpiles on UK territory are to pursue that approach, albeit not through the Bill but under UK jurisdiction, but not control. I am keen to through a voluntary code of practice for business. Clearly, know from the Minister whether the “and”in “jurisdiction this is a complex issue and thorough consultation is and control” means “and/or” or simply “and”. The US needed to find the best way of preventing such indirect is ultimately responsible for those stockpiles, but does financing. I am pleased that the Government have said not the UK also have responsibility for ensuring that that they would not rule out introducing legislation to they are not stored on our territory? Furthermore, we enforce a voluntary agreement if that were deemed have to make the point that the US Department of necessary. The Liberal Democrats would certainly be 907 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 908 [Lords] [Lords] prepared to consider further legislation, and I hope that more aggressive purpose. However, they are the same if that were deemed necessary it would also have cross-party people who are so motivated and brave when they put support. their lives at risk in de-mining operations both during The Bill is a good one, doing something wholly their service and after they have retired. I immediately positive that will help not only to save lives abroad, but salute my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for to prevent horrendous maimings. The impact will come North-East Milton Keynes (Mr. Lancaster), who has partly from the fact that the UK will not use cluster risked his life on numerous occasions, particularly in munitions and partly from the important role that we Bosnia, for the protection of others, and especially of can play globally in encouraging other states to change, children. too. The Minister has mentioned that seven EU member By introducing this Bill we are giving our armed states and 26 Commonwealth countries have not ratified forces a problem. I listen with attention to my constituents the convention. I hope that our influence will be used to in all military services, because opinion is divided in reduce those numbers and to get more states signing up military circles about whether cluster munitions—or, to and ratifying it. Of course, it is also regrettable that indeed, landmines before them—should be banned in key countries such as the United States have not yet the way proposed. When the then Secretary of State agreed to the convention. It is unfortunate that, despite introduced the Second Reading of the Landmines Bill our special relationship, we have not been able to convince on 10 July 1998, he pointed out that it was not the end the US to act with responsibility as a major military of the matter, and that that day was the beginning of a power in the world. new era. How right he was: this Bill is a natural consequence I shall support the Bill’s Second Reading. I hope very of the Landmines Bill. We made a start then, and we are much that we can pass the Bill before the general taking a further step today, but we should never forget election, and that, given the cross-party support for it, that there are other issues. I suggest that this House will the UK will, whatever the outcome of the election, play return to them in the not too distant future, long after I a leading role internationally in getting rid of these vile have shuffled off the Westminster stage at the next and indiscriminate weapons for good. election. We will have to face up to matters such as white phosphorous, depleted uranium and other particularly aggressive forms of munitions. 2.17 pm War represents the failure of politics and diplomacy. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): I strongly support the If we go back to the days of Plato, we find that he Bill, and I hope that the House will not need to divide addressed the philosophical basis of war in “The Republic”. on it, but I intend to be in my place at the end of the If I may summarise, he said that the point of war was to debate to say aye. I feel very passionately about this secure a better peace. That is exactly what this Bill is all issue, which has engaged me since I was a child, as I about, so many hundreds of years later. Schedule 1 shall explain. deals with definitions, and a number of hon. Members On 10 July 1998, I stood at the Dispatch Box as a have mentioned how difficult it is to define exactly what defence spokesman for the Opposition to throw our we mean. Was a multiple rocket launcher used? If not, weight behind the Bill that became the Landmines what other kind of delivery was used? Did the munition Act 1998. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-East fall from the air, or was it on the ground? Where did it Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), who was then the shadow fall, and how? Those are important questions, and we Secretary of State for Defence, and I welcomed the shall have to look at them in Committee. For example, signing of the Oslo treaty and pointed out that it was we will have to discover the extent of this seamless robe, weakened by the absence of signatories from the major because in the end we are talking about the impact on landmine manufacturers such as China, Russia and human beings, particularly civilians. Does a cluster Pakistan. We recognised that mines had a military munition become, by definition, a mine when it has purpose and that we had to encourage the development been lying on the ground for some time and is triggered of alternatives, but we thought we could achieve the by a child stepping on it or playing with it in some form objective without the appalling risk to civilians. I pointed or another? Or does it not become so defined? These are out that we were used to seeing on our television screens issues that we will leave for Committee. the devastating effect of the horrors of war in far-off The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit lands. We had recently seen the amazing pictures of Öpik) referred to the question of far-off lands, saying Diana, Princess of Wales, in Angola that gave such that if mines exploded around our shores or in our huge global momentum to the cause of the International country there would be immediate public outrage and Committee of the Red Cross. I welcomed the Government’s very swift action indeed. Well, I can tell the House that resourcing of mine clearance operations either directly that has happened in our land. I was there, and I want or through agencies such as the HALO Trust, which to pass on, for those who will be here long after I have had become familiar to my family because a distinguished gone, what happens in those circumstances. nephew of mine, after serving in the Gulf war in the On Friday 13 May 1955, when I was 10 years old, I Coldstream Guards, had worked for the trust de-mining was on Swanage beach in Dorset with some 20 other in Afghanistan and Angola. Indeed, he prepared the children of about the same age. We were doing what “minefield” in which Diana, Princess of Wales, was seen children on a beach on a Friday afternoon in May by the world. do—building sandcastles, digging holes in the sand, I am very realistic about this issue. Representing a making dams and so on. I was building my castle with a military constituency such as Salisbury, I understand chap called Richard Dunstan: five of my friends were why our servicemen and women continue to feel that digging holes, and then one of them found a tin. He there is a need for all sorts of horrendous battlefield thought that it was Spam, or something really exotic—yes, weapons, whether for battlefield protection or for a Spam was exotic in 1955. He was wrestling to move it, 909 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 910 [Lords] [Lords] [Robert Key] some evidence of the existence of 54 others, the remaining 58 are still unaccounted for. That was what I found so because it was lodged between two rocks. He got out a horrendous when I discovered all this as a Minister of shoehorn but could not break the tin open. The boys the Crown so many years later. stood back, and were seen throwing things at it. The coroner concluded his remarkable summing up—in My friend and I got bored. We turned round. We had those days, of course, everything was handwritten, and our backs to our friends, and were about the same I have a copy of his notes—by saying: distance from them as I am from you, Mr. Deputy “I think the bomb was in all probability washed ashore. Speaker, when there was a huge explosion. We were I do not think any blame can be attached to any living persons blown into the sea, and lived. Five of my friends died. in this matter. The boys were all playing among the rocks in a Five British children were blown up by a British mine perfectly normal way so far as” on a British beach, within my living memory, and the living memory of many other people. It was an the master in charge extraordinary thing. It happened in the middle of the “could see and I do not consider he has any reason to reproach 1955 general election. The front page of the following himself, and after the explosion he could not have done more nor day’s edition of The Daily Telegraph carried a story acted more resolutely than he did.” with the headline, “4 Boys Die, One Missing in Explosion”. I certainly concur with that. He was my favourite master. Below that, smaller headlines stated, “Big Crater Torn He was my French master, and a remarkable and good in Beach” and “Wartime Mine Theory”. man. I think that he must have been through hell ever There was not much theory involved for the five who since. were killed, or for the two of us who were the luckiest One can imagine how horrified the staff at the school people alive. I still think that I am the luckiest person were by what had happened. They, too, were remarkable alive in this House. Of course, my hon. Friend the in the way in which they handled the incident, the Member for North-East Milton Keynes has deliberately enormity of which was overwhelming. The headmaster, put himself in harm’s way, and I salute him for it, but I John Strange, who was a wonderful man, managed to was there as a child and got tangled up in what happened hold the whole community together. The retired headmaster, by mistake. So what was the response in Britain when a the Rev. Chadwick, also played his part. The master mine exploded around our shores? Many years later, I who had been at the heart of the incident and who had was a Minister in the Department of National Heritage, been taking his charges on the beach was wonderful. and the Imperial War Museum was one of my The school could not have done more to look after the responsibilities. One day, I asked the staff there whether children, but the fact remained that the mine clearances they had any records of something happening on Swanage had not been completed satisfactorily. The mine clearance beach on 13 May 1955. A couple of weeks later, a large officers had, in fact, refused a certificate of clearance on box arrived, full of all the documentation relating to one occasion, but had been overruled. that horrible event. In the final certificate of removal of dangerous military I have here in my hand copies of the Dorset police defence works, the officer concerned—who, ironically, documents entitled “Report to Coroner Concerning was operating out of Southern Command in Salisbury Death”. They detail how, on 13 May at about 4.20 pm, in my constituency—stated: four boys were reported dead. I also have a copy of the “The whole area has been swept with a detector and those report from the police constable who found them, but portions of the area which have been subject to disturbances have the strange thing is that the fifth boy was never found. been explored thoroughly to the apparent depth of that disturbance”. Within a day or two, a plimsoll that he had been Bulldozers were brought in, and the beach was removed wearing was found. Another was found a few days later. down to the rock and put back again. The officer That meant that the then Home Secretary had to issue a continued: document giving authority to the coroner to investigate the matter. The coroner simply declared that there was “Though no guarantee can be given the area may be considered no conclusion to reach other than that the fifth boy had safe except for the possibility of mines being washed up from other fields”, been a victim of the same mine explosion. and that is what happened. In the inquest, the coroner called for evidence from the officer responsible for de-mining the beach, who This is a horrendous story, and I repeat it to the had issued a class IIA certificate in January 1950. The House to point out that on the issue of mine clearance, officer said: whether it is cluster bombs, cluster munitions or mines “I am convinced that this mine had been in the sea and from of any kind, the impact is the same on a child of 10 at evidence of marine growth I consider the mine had been washed play, whether in Beirut or in Swanage. Personally, I ashore. would like to see the mystery of the missing mines of What the boys were seen to have been doing was quite sufficient Swanage bay cleared up. My hon. Friend the Member to have exploded the mine…As an expert I would have allowed for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood), who also knows boys to walk across the beach.” more about military matters than most of us, and who I have read the mine clearance officer’s reports, and has first-hand experience in his military service, might have with me a copy of the plan of the mines that were be interested. laid on Swanage beach in 1940. A clearance operation After the event, the coastguard swept the whole coast was undertaken in 1945, which was repeated in 1947 from St. Aldhelm’s head right round past Poole harbour and again 1949. Eventually, a clearance certificate was all the way to the Isle of Wight for any traces of that issued on 17 February 1950. The documents reveal that missing body. None were found. More significant now 117 mines had been laid, of which five were lifted in is the fact that we have the technology to detect those clearance. They also show that, although there was mines. I would like to see minehunters of the Sandown 911 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 912 [Lords] [Lords] class or equivalent brought in, perhaps in training, to Mr. Caton: On a point of information, Israel is a sweep Swanage beach and the coast right round manufacturer of cluster munitions, and the British defence Bournemouth. We have the evidence in the 1950 statements forces have used Israeli cluster munitions. of the officer who did the clearance and also from the 1955 inquest that the bomb which killed those children Mr. Holloway: I thank the hon. Gentleman for telling had probably been swept inshore by a gale. There is an us that. opportunity for the Ministry of Defence, in the course Now many—dare I say it—responsible first-world of training our Royal Navy operatives, to have another countries will not have cluster munitions and will not be go. That would be an opportunity worth taking. able to stockpile them or transfer them. A number of I support the Bill—of course I do, after what I have European countries have already signed up to the been through in my life. I still think I am the luckiest convention, and the US has tabled the Cluster Munitions Member to be alive. It motivated me in my politics, and Civilian Protection Act to restrict their open use by the it motivated me to be interested in defence once I came military, although like most legislation in the US, that to the House. I have done that for 27 years. I hope the has rather slowed down. But cluster munitions are lessons of Swanage beach will not be forgotten. I hope useful in dire extremis because, as was shown by the US the Bill will be but one step on the road to realising that in Iraq, they have the capacity to destroy large armoured although war may have to be fought, we should always formations spread over a large area in a very short strive to do it honourably, morally, with integrity, and time frame. always and everywhere with the minimum impact on a I was talking to one of my friends about the war in civilian population that has not put itself in harm’s way. Iraq in 2003, when a multi-launch rocket system was That is my wish, and that is why I support the Bill. presenting an instant threat, presumably to our troops, and how the use of those munitions instantly got rid of 2.33 pm that threat. I accept that in Iraq in 2003, for example, they were massively over-used. I saw that. However, the Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): I pay tribute US will retain them, and as we know, it has no plans to to my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert sign the convention. During future coalition operations, Key) for that remarkable speech. I am sure no one will the UK will still be able to benefit from the protection forget what he said about Friday 13 May 1955. afforded by those munitions if the US chooses to I welcome the international moves against land mines deploy them. and cluster bombs. The first time I came across a cluster As a state party to the convention, the UK is required bomb was in the early 1980s in Afghanistan. There were to promote adherence to the convention and discourage a number of little green things with a wing on the side the use of cluster munitions. By ratifying the convention, and a bit of metal protruding from them. Back in we have removed the ability to use such weapons. It is a Pakistan, I saw the effect of those at a children’s hospital shame that we ratified without an exemption to allow run, I think, but the International Committee of the the UK the ability to acquire those weapons in extreme Red Cross. I shall not forget, in Bosnia in about 1992, circumstances. That would not prevent us from getting when someone had been blown up by a mine in a little rid of our current stockpile, as we are doing now, which town called Stari Vitez, my team and I going back to is costing a large amount of money; nor would it where we lived and prising out of the soles of our prevent the US from stockpiling them in our country. I Timberland shoes little flecks of different bits of people. do not understand the need potentially to endanger the In 2003 I remember standing in a built-up area in country’s security and the safety of our armed forces, northern Iraq and being extremely surprised to see when we have the opportunity now to comply with the shiny little unexploded bomblets, almost certainly from convention but retain the ability to protect our troops in an American plane. I wondered why they had been used extremis. there in those circumstances. Poorly targeted, they do All weapons are filthy. Cluster munitions and land not discriminate between civilian and military targets. mines are particularly so because they are cruel and When the submunitions fail to explode, they become de enduring. However, in some dire scenarios, as one of facto land mines, every bit as lethal as that experienced the weapons of last resort, in a deadly battle space, they by my hon. Friend, causing civilian casualties much could have a role. In crude, ugly, practical terms, they later. could be extremely useful in protecting our troops. I A number of countries have refused to sign the hope we do not regret signing the convention. convention, most notably Russia and China, which export cluster munitions to third-world countries. We 2.39 pm know that the end-user arrangements can be extremely Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): This legislation and tenuous. Russia’s arms exports are about $10 billion. the convention on cluster munitions are welcome. In Chinese defence exports are somewhat lower. Most of warfare we should always strive to ensure that civilian those go to Pakistan, another country that has not casualties are kept to a minimum. The principle that signed, as is the case for Israel. civilians are protected from the effects of warfare and By signing the convention, the Government will not conflict, and that non-combatants are treated humanely be able to stop nasty wars in various parts of the world during warfare and conflict and its aftermath, is something that are still being fought with the use of cluster munitions. that we must observe, and the convention and the The two latest and most well-known examples are the legislation take a step in the right direction. At a time war between Russia and Georgia and the extensive use when our moral standing as a great power has been of presumably American-made cluster bombs in Lebanon questioned morally and ethically in respect of our foreign by Israel. I have no idea what is going on in the nastier, policy, and widely judged by the public here and abroad, darker corners of the world in all those little wars in we are sending out a positive signal by ratifying the places such as Africa. convention. 913 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 914 [Lords] [Lords] [Bill Wiggin] rendition, whereby Britain has been complicit and implicated in that practice, our moral standing on such I am sure that over the years we have all been contacted issues can be undermined by our associations with our by our constituents and various lobby groups and charities, allies. The Government have yet to provide clarity on highlighting the dangers of cluster munitions. Even in those matters or the reassurances that we would like to areas where wars and conflicts have finished, cluster ensure that our armed forces are not compromised in munitions pose a threat to civilians for decades. In their tremendous work in theatres of war to bring about Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos, there are still regular peace and security. instances of civilians—often children born a generation The Government also need to outline to us their after the bombs were dropped—being maimed and plans to lobby other countries to sign up to the convention. killed. It is estimated that there are 300 new victims a In addition to America and Pakistan, a significant year in that area—almost one a day. number of other countries have yet to sign up. Israel, A cluster submunition explosion took the life of a Georgia and Russia have all reportedly used cluster 40-year-old man in Quang Tri in Vietnam in February, munitions and are not signatories to the convention, and five children were killed and another was injured and we have all seen, from the Georgian-Russian conflict when a cluster submunition exploded in a village in and the ongoing violence in the middle east, the devastating Laos—also in February. Those are just two of the many effects of cluster munitions. Other non-signatories include sad cases that highlight for us all the need to take action those regional powers that aspire to permanent seats on matter, but ratifying the convention and passing the the UN Security Council—Brazil, India, China, Argentina, legislation is just one step in the process of dealing with North Korea, Iran and Syria—and non-state organisations, cluster munitions. A number of outstanding issues need such as Hezbollah. There is nothing to prevent those to be resolved nationally and internationally to make countries and groups from producing such weapons the convention more effective. and trading them. I should welcome from the Minister an explanation When Parliament agreed to replace Trident, we also of how our obligations under the convention will be agreed to continue to renew our efforts under the nuclear consistent with the support that we give to our allies non-proliferation treaty to support arms reduction. We who are not signatories. Article 1 states: should be doing likewise with this convention and pushing “Each State Party undertakes never under any circumstances forward with efforts to get other countries on board. I to… Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity would be concerned if the UK had to enter a conflict in prohibited to a State Party under this Convention.” which our enemies were using those devices. At the Oslo The UK has always had an important working relationship conference in December 2008, the Foreign Secretary with the USA on military operations. However, the stated that the UK’s decision to sign the convention USA is not a signatory to the convention, and nor is would send “a clear political message” to others, and it Pakistan, with whom we are also working on operations is important that the message is understood by those in Afghanistan. How will our ratification of the convention countries and reinforced. and obligations under article 1 be consistent with the I understand that under article 3, signatories must joint working relationship that we need with our allies? undertake to destroy their stockpiles of prohibited cluster By working with those countries on joint military munitions within eight years. It would be helpful to operations, would the UK be in breach of article 1 and know from the Minister the progress that the UK and the requirement not to “Assist, encourage or induce” other parties to the convention are making in destroying others to use cluster bombs? If we gave our allies those weapons. I should also be interested to know the intelligence on the location of enemy positions in shelf-life of such weapons, the cost of destroying them Afghanistan, and they then chose to use cluster bombs and the reduction in cost as a result of the eight-year in that area, would the UK be in breach of the convention period. and those officers involved sanctioned under clause 2 of I should also welcome from the Minister further the Bill? Would a British soldier working with US forces details on how the UK will meet its obligations to help on an operation in which cluster munitions were used clear cluster munitions under article 4 of the convention, be prosecuted under clause 2? Or do the Government and to support victims under article 5. Although those envisage a protocol whereby we will co-operate with our measures are not covered by the Bill, they are part of allies only on the condition that cluster bombs be not the convention. Some 6 million to 7 million cluster used? munitions are thought to be in Laos, and munitions are In the NATO operation in Serbia and Kosovo, which present in Georgia, Africa, Afghanistan and the middle was championed by our former Prime Minister and east. The international community has made progress widely supported, cluster munitions were used. Under in clearing land mines over recent years, and I urge the clause 2, however, troops involved in joint operations Minister to step up efforts, in the year that this convention could face up to 14 years in prison if convicted of comes into force, to clear up unexploded cluster munitions. “assisting, encouraging or inducing” our allies in using I should welcome also an explanation of how our prohibited munitions. Once we ratify the convention, obligations under the convention will be consistent with how will future operations be affected when our allies the support that we give to our allies who are not might be using those weapons? signatories to the convention. Then there is the matter of cluster munitions at US When I was a solider, I was trained to understand bases in the UK. The Minister touched on it in his that cluster munitions would be used to protect areas in opening comments, but it is unclear whether by permitting the same way as setting land mines would. They were an that practice the UK would be breaching its obligations important defensive measure for an army being trained and committing an offence under the Bill. As we know to resist the might of the Soviet Union. I hope that we from the use of US bases in Britain for extraordinary will learn what we would do if such threats were to exist 915 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 916 [Lords] [Lords] in future—although obviously not in the same way as Mr. Lancaster: May I take this opportunity to pay they existed in the ’80s or earlier. We would not like our tribute to Lieutenant Gareth Evans and Sergeant Balaram troops to have their hands tied behind their backs, but Rai of the Queen’s Gurkha Engineers, who died in equally we must do everything that we can to ensure Kosovo in June 1999 attempting to clear cluster mines that stories such as that which my hon. Friend the so that these very young people and children would not Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) told never occur be injured? This is an appropriate moment to put that again. Therefore, I welcome the Bill. on record.

Mr. Ellwood: I am grateful for that intervention and 2.48 pm very pleased that my hon. and gallant Friend has placed Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): It is that tribute on the record. The sacrifices that our armed a pleasure and an honour to be the final Back-Bench forces make, sometimes the ultimate sacrifice, should speaker in what has been a very powerful and interesting never be forgotten. debate. I begin where my hon. Friend the Member for We had some discussion about smart and dumb Leominster (Bill Wiggin) ended by paying tribute to my cluster bombs. I hope that the Bill does not distinguish hon.—I should say gallant now—Friend the Member between the two. A dumb cluster bomb is one that is not for Salisbury (Robert Key) for his recounting of a truly designed to explode after a certain time but simply incredible story. It was a very moving and vivid account lands and waits for somebody to step on it, whereas a of a personal experience that brought home to him the smart one is supposed to overcome that problem and actual dangers of the very thing that we are discussing end up exploding of its own accord so that it does not today. I am pleased that he survived the incident, although become dangerous ordnance in the aftermath of very saddened to hear about the loss of his friends. He war. Either way, they are considered as force multipliers, has been, and continues to be, an asset to this House, so and I am pleased that we are removing those aspects of it was all the more moving to hear about the start of war. that amazing story back in 1955. However, as we have heard time and again, it is all There have been other excellent contributions, and it very well our stepping forward and making this noble has been fascinating to hear the interventions from my gesture to remove our arsenal of those weapons, but hon. Friend the Member for North-East Milton Keynes there are still countries, some of them military allies, (Mr. Lancaster), who has had first-hand experience of that are not only using these weapons but manufacturing dealing with those munitions, as well as the speech them. My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster from my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham made the important point that if countries such as (Mr. Holloway), who has equally wandered the globe, China are making these weapons, who on earth are they seen those munitions at first hand and seen also the exporting them to? We do not know, but we do know damage that they can do. It is a tribute to the power of that we might end up bumping into them in one part of this House that we have Members with such knowledge the world or another. and expertise who can contribute to this debate. There was much talk about matters closer to home— My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster stressed European countries that have yet to ratify the convention. that countries that are either applying or want to be at I was also astonished to hear that half the Commonwealth the top table on the UN Security Council may not be countries, with which one would assume that we have signatories to the convention, so I should be interested good relationships, have yet to sign the convention, and to hear whether the Minister supports countries putting that a number of European countries—about a third of their names forward to sit at that top table—whether in the European Union—have yet to do so. Again, we do a permanent or temporary slot—if they have not signed not know where they are exporting to. Eighty-five countries up to the convention. continue to have stockpiles of weapons. I would be keen to learn whether the Minister thinks that all those Before I get into the detail of the Bill, and as we are countries will have destroyed their stockpiles by the on the subject of mines, I pay tribute to the 56 Riflemen time that we have got rid of ours. who have been killed and the 235 Riflemen who have been injured from the 2nd Battalion and 3rd Battalion Mention was made of Diego Garcia and other British the Rifles. These deaths and injuries, which have taken territories overseas. As the Minister said in response to place in Afghanistan in the past 12 months alone, show my intervention, we may well ask the Americans to the dangers that those Riflemen are continuing to endure remove their cluster munitions from our soil, but can he in a war zone. I highlight that because Afghanistan is guarantee that the same will apply in other locations the war zone at the moment, and we are debating what around the world where we have a British interest? happens to a war zone once the war is concluded—once How will compliance with these measures be confirmed? the armies pack up and go home and the civilians Is there a UN team that will go in to inspect, or will it return to be rehoused or to reoccupy their communities. simply be done by good will? Is there some form of The Bill is important because it does not discriminate in inspectorate? How will we formally know that this is terms of its application, but there is a legacy for which taking place? we are responsible. My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury I was interested to hear the Minister say that a third (Mr. Lidington) raised the issue of financing, and I of all injuries are to children, who pick up these munitions encourage the Minister to respond to that. We are a way after the war has finished and the military has gone cornerstone, internationally and globally, of the financial on its way. It is worrying in itself that we do not do markets. How can we ensure that our own markets are more to ensure that we clean up after war has taken not used, from a banking perspective, to support companies place. that may wish to continue to make these munitions? 917 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 918 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr. Ellwood] Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kenya. Many areas are inaccessible because of the amount of munitions that Something that is missing from the convention itself, are blocking the roads and pathways. In Angola, I let alone the Bill, is a sense of responsibility on the part understand that 18 provinces have problems in receiving of countries such as ourselves who have used these other humanitarian aid because they do not have freedom munitions in the past but are perhaps not doing enough of movement because of the munitions left on the to clear up the mess having left that legacy behind. The ground. Minister was right to point out that, through DFID, we The purpose of the Bill and the convention itself is to are doing an awful lot to pay for the existing clear-up, protect future generations from the consequences of the but what a shame that we did not include in the convention aftermath of war, so why do nations not contribute to a retrospective element according to which signatories the clean-up? The Minister said that the UK is doing its are asked to consider what they can do in the former bit, but cannot we show some leadership to encourage war zones in which they fought to assist with the other countries to do the same? removal of mines. Bosnia has been mentioned, and I remember going in My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster pointed there firstly as part of UN operations. I am afraid that out that Africans are carrying out the clear-up in we were very keen to get rid of our blue beret. We had Argentina—[Interruption.] I am sorry—in the Falklands, to paint our Warriors in a bright white, which seemed to not Argentina. I am loth to encourage too many Argentines say, “We are here, please shoot at us.” When we turned to make their homes in the Falklands, given the current into an implementation force, we were pleased to go circumstances. Nevertheless, there is something morally back into our normal uniforms, and with different rules right in seeing an Argentine ordnance team working to of engagement we gained the respect of the Bosnians, remove the munitions that they placed, as well as working Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. with the British to remove the ordnance that we put down. As I said, Argentine ordnance is down there as I recall one very grave moment when we had to punch well, which is why legacy should also be important in through an area just north of Sanski Most, near Prijedor, the clean-up process. where we had to try to provide a road link between a Serb area and a Muslim area. It was a quite a moment Bill Wiggin: The Kent-based company that won the for me to have to send one of my Warrior tanks in front contract from the Government to clear the mines employs of me to pave the way through. We did not know what Zimbabweans. The dilemma that that presents for the was going to happen. Thankfully we were able to break Government, on which unfortunately the Minister was through, and I believe that that crossing is still called unable to offer any clarification, relates to why we are the Bondi beach crossing point. It was one of the main taking that talent—they are brilliant mine-clearing arterial routes that we were able to make. We could not people—from Africa when there is so much demand for go either side of the area and so we then had to mark it it there. Yes, it is nice that we can afford to employ the off, and I understand that it still marked off to this very finest people in the world to clear the mines that the day. Children are prevented from going into it, and one Argentines sowed in the Falklands, but there is a moral of the educational things that they do when they are dilemma that the Government have completely failed to growing up is to learn about minefield signs. It cannot address. be right that they are having to do that in the heart of Europe. Mr. Ellwood: I entirely take my hon. Friend’s point; I questioned the Minister about the use of other he is absolutely right. The demand for the removal of institutions and organisations in Europe, and he dismissed munitions and ordnance in Africa itself exists, so we the idea that NATO might have a role and might be able have to ask ourselves why we are unable to sort out the to encourage its member states to participate. He rolls Falklands in our own way rather than depriving Africa his eyes, but NATO uses the munitions in question. If of that asset. we could oblige the armed forces to remove them from Mr. Holloway: Does my hon. Friend agree that this their arsenal, that would surely be a positive step. They might be the moment to pay tribute to organisations could then say to their political masters, “Yes, we have such as the HALO Trust, which goes off around the got rid of them. We have designed our suite of warfare world to do this work? I shall never forget seeing one of assets so that we no longer rely on such munitions.” its staff walking over a hillside with the villagers confined That is worth exploring, and I would be happy to point to a particular area to show that he and his colleagues the Minister in the direction of Admiral Jim Stavridis, had effectively removed the mines. He walked around NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who would for about two and half hours; I am only sorry that he be delighted to have a conversation with him. asked me to join him. My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) made the valid point that the EU has Mr. Ellwood: I am grateful for that intervention. I am the European Defence Agency. Why on earth is that not not sure that the HALO Trust has been praised enough. being used as a vehicle to encourage the moves that we Indeed, other charities do this very difficult work, working want? We do not have to force the matter, but why is it alongside our armed forces as well. not brought up for debate? The Minister shakes his The consequence of the western world’s legacy—ours head, but we could show some British leadership by and that of other nations which have fought wars—of using such vehicles to encourage our allies. It cannot be minefields and munitions is that more than 90 countries right that Turkey is still unwilling to sign the convention. across the globe are contaminated with the remnants of That could mean that we go to war with Turkey as our war. We are responsible for sites in Iraq, as we used NATO ally and find it using the munitions in question these munitions when moving towards Basra in 2003. because it believes it is still okay to do so. The Minister Likewise, there are explosive remnants in Kosovo, Sudan, did not explain what would happen to an officer working 919 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 920 [Lords] [Lords] with or in the neighbourhood of Turkish forces if they We then tried to distinguish between the use of cluster were to use those munitions. That is not covered in the munitions in what I would still call “conventional warfare”, Bill—no such crime is set out in it. The crimes, punishments, which could somehow be regarded as good use—although threats and so on laid out in the Bill are all about what God alone knows what West Germany would have happens on British soil. That needs to be explored in looked like in the midst of it all—and bad use in Committee, and I hope that the Minister has time to unconventional warfare, which would involve the death answer the questions that I have asked him. of large numbers of civilians and be indiscriminate, The conduct of war has changed. I think I am right in however we define that word. I do not want to become saying that the Minister mentioned Henry Dunant, an old military historian bore, but— whose writings about the horrors of war in his book “A Memory of Solferino” in 1862 were the genesis of the Chris Bryant: I am sure you can manage it. Red Cross. Since then, advances in technology have taken place and our moral understanding of what is Mr. Simpson: The Minister has just enticed me to right and wrong in the conduct of war has changed. We speak for at least another hour—he should be very now have the Geneva conventions, and the Minister careful about teasing me at the Dispatch Box. also mentioned the prohibition of mustard gas as a form of warfare. However, even in 2003 we were using We have to accept that, horrendously, tens of thousands the munitions covered in the Bill. The hon. Member for of civilians were killed in the two world wars by direct Gower (Mr. Caton) secured an Adjournment debate in munitions. We can think of the 30,000 French casualties 2006 on the very issue of prohibiting them, and a during the liberation of Normandy or the tens of thousands Defence Minister said, “Not possible”. of British and German civilians who were killed in area bombing, many of them by land mines that were left Chris Bryant: As did the Opposition. behind. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) said that those who drop or lay Mr. Ellwood: The point is made, but that shows how mines should effectively be responsible for clearing up, the argument has advanced. but that has not applied in the case of either the British Ernest Hemingway said: or German Government. In fact, it is the home Government “Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how who have to do it. The only contribution that we have justified, is not a crime.” made to the continuing business of collecting munitions Today, we strive to make one very small but ugly facet dropped by Bomber Command during the second world of war a crime, and that must be a positive thing. More war has been to provide, thank goodness, an amazing recently, General Petraeus has said that we must think array of aerial photographs. of war in a very different way—it is no longer enough The casualty element of the problem, which my hon. just to destroy the enemy, we have to enable the local, Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) so movingly and only then is our job done properly. We cannot brought to bear on the debate, shows the legacy of these enable the local if we leave behind a legacy of munitions. weapons. It is sometimes difficult for us to think about I am pleased to add my weight and support to the Bill, the tens of thousands of people affected in Cambodia, which is morally and ethically the right thing to do and Afghanistan and elsewhere—they are numbers, despite a very positive step forward. the photographs and so on. The legacy of the weapons in question still exists, and there are still casualties in 3.5 pm Belgium and northern France from munitions from the Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): This has two world wars. An old friend of mine was killed 11 been a wide-ranging and well informed debate. I, too, years ago. He was a military historian at Sandhurst who wish to place on record my support for and belief in the foolishly brought back a piece of unexploded munitions work of many aid organisations dealing with mines and from the battlefield in France, quite illegally. It was with the aftermath of mines and cluster munitions, and placed on his study desk, and one evening he was that of our own mine clearance personnel in the British working, the heat in the room changed and the thing armed forces. It was a business that had declined in the blew up and killed him. He is not alone. There is ’70s and ’80s to a narrow profession dealing on the therefore a historical element to such casualties. whole with specific kinds of munitions in the internal My next point is important; I do not believe that my conflict in Northern Ireland, but it has grown like hon. Friends made it to undermine the purpose of the Topsy because of Iraq and Afghanistan. Bill, which they all said that they support. However, My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Bill several colleagues asked why the UK Government changed Wiggin), like other colleagues with military service and their mind about the decision to do without cluster experience, put his finger on it when he asked what was munitions. It might be helpful to the debate in Committee the original purpose of the munitions in question. It if the Minister provided an aide-mémoire from the was to enable the side that was weaker on the whole, Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence, outlining whether on a tactical or operational level, to block off the reasons for the decision. My shorthand on the large areas of a battlefield against a superior enemy, matter is that the Ministry of Defence was always and at least divert him or hold him up. As many of us loathe to give up that range of munitions, partly because know who lived through the cold war—the balance it was still thinking in cold war terms, but also because between NATO and the Warsaw pact—they were developed it believed that there was always a possibility of finding because it was assumed that there would be an ourselves in a conflict in which we might need such overwhelming Soviet and Warsaw pact attack on NATO, munitions. It is a fair and legitimate question for colleagues and that if we were not immediately to use nuclear to ask. I urge the Minister to ask the Foreign Office and weapons, the next worst thing was conventional weapons the Ministry of Defence to provide, if possible, an aide- such as these. mémoire. I imagine that it is possible because the 921 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 922 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr. Keith Simpson] It has been interesting to have a debate in which so many Members who have served in the armed forces information cannot be restricted, certainly not nowadays, have participated, and in which everybody has essentially or it would automatically end up in The Independent or said the same thing: we want to move forward to ratify The Times. An aide-mémoire should be produced in on the UK’s behalf the convention banning cluster time for Committee stage. I am sure that that will find munitions. However, the speech of the hon. Member for support from hon. Members of all parties. Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) implied, “Yes, we want to My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury agree the Bill, but we would really rather like to keep the (Mr. Lidington) asked a series of questions. The first—an capability that cluster munitions provide”— important question—was, what changed the Government’s mind? He, like other colleagues, rightly made the point Mr. Simpson indicated dissent. that many of our allies still see the utility of possessing the munitions. I will not regurgitate the arguments of Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is not fluttering particularly my hon. Friends about how we operate in his eyelids, he is shaking his head, so I presume that I coalitions when some of our partners still possess and misunderstood him. However, that was the tenor that I maintain the right to use such weapons under certain thought I caught from his speech. circumstances. I do not think that that is legal nit-picking— Mr. Simpson: With respect to the Minister, this happens there is potentially a genuine problem. in so many Committees—it is a good example of new My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury, the hon. Labour setting dividing lines. There are no dividing Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) and lines on the measure. We support the Bill. We have others asked about the indirect financing of cluster asked legitimate questions that relate not only to the munitions and where that fits in the Bill. safety of many civilians throughout the world, but to My hon. Friend’s final point was that there is no our armed forces. The questions were asked not merely explicit commitment by the UK Government to meet to spin out the time—they are legitimate and put by the eight-year deadline in the Bill. The Minister is doing colleagues, many of whom have much greater experience a cute frown at me and fluttering his eyelids in a way than the Minister or me. that only the Government Whips Office normally sees. Chris Bryant: I was not questioning any of the other Chris Bryant: Don’t start me. hon. Members; I was merely commenting on my understanding of the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, Mr. Simpson: Indeed. The Government Whip is looking but he seems now to be much more unambiguously affronted. supportive of the Bill—[Interruption.] The hon. Member I should be grateful if the Minister explained in detail for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), who comments from the reason for the absence of the commitment to meet a sedentary position, was not in the Chamber when the the deadline in the Bill. hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk began his speech. Supporting the Bill means that we accept that the UK Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): I was. not only accepts legal liabilities, but voluntarily gives up a military/defence weapons system, and that we recognise Chris Bryant: If he was, I apologise, but he was that the effect of that system is horrendous, whether on certainly not in the same seat. soldiers or civilians. One of the unspoken aspects is that our military personnel, civilian personnel and many Mr. Burns: I was. non-governmental organisations nevertheless have to operate in truly asymmetric conflicts. The other side, Chris Bryant: I apologise if— whether a legally based Government or irregular forces, is not constrained. British troops and civilian personnel, Mr. Burns rose— with other coalition forces, are risking their lives at this moment in Afghanistan to support a legitimate Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman Government, and are facing an enemy that operates would like to leave the matter there. We have had a good with no constraints, and effectively uses cluster munitions. tempered debate, and that matter should not be taken I do not know whether, in the parameters of international any further. I think that the Minister should not take law, there is any way in which we can bring some form the intervention, but proceed with his speech. of legal consequences upon not only those who plant such munitions, but those who direct them. It is Chris Bryant: I hope that the hon. Gentleman demonstrably unfair that we are placed in such a position acknowledges that I apologise if I have inadvertently and that the enemy has all the advantages. We may have misled the House. the moral high ground, but they do not suffer any Several hon. Members made important contributions consequences for the sort of warfare that they are and paid tribute, like the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk, waging. to our armed forces, who have made valiant efforts—some Hon. Members of all parties support the Bill. They so valiant as to lose their lives—in clearing mines around have asked questions in a positive spirit and we look the world. Several hon. Members referred to the effort forward the Minister’s comments and views. that has had to be made in Bosnia, but there are many other parts of the world where British troops are currently involved in clearing mines, training many others and 3.15 pm providing education so that local societies can move on. Chris Bryant: With permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I also pay tribute to the work of the HALO Trust, to I rise to reply to the debate. which, again, several hon. Members referred. 923 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 924 [Lords] [Lords] It is also worth bearing in mind that many of those a rather robust reply in return. He should not doubt our who have taken the most active interest in the issue are determination to secure ratification by countries such Members not of this House but of the other place. They as Turkey and the United States of America, but I am have engaged with the matter directly and pushed for not sure that NATO is the right place to do that. some time for a change in the position. It is worth acknowledging that not only Government Front Mr. Ellwood rose— Benchers—as my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) said—but the Opposition have changed Chris Bryant: I am conscious that I took an awful lot their position in the past five years. As I acknowledged of interventions in my opening speech, but I will of in my opening remarks, the Ministry of Defence has course give way to the hon. Gentleman. co-operated fully in the process in the past couple of years of trying to reach a position whereby we have a Mr. Ellwood: I do not know how much time the clear understanding of the requirements of British personnel Minister spends around soldiers, but that is an important working with other countries that are not signatories. aspect of the question. If he engaged and worked with The first question asked by the hon. Member for the senior military and gained an understanding of the Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) was about whether our capability array of assets that they have, and then allowed the is being undermined by banning such munitions. For military to consider how they might replace what is me, it is not so much a matter of whether our capability missing from their armoury, as my hon. Friend the has changed. Undoubtedly, in some cases, it would be Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) suggested in nice to be able to use every weapon available to humanity, his winding-up speech, the political will would be the but we have always decided that there are moral limits other way around. That is another angle to come at the to what should be available to the armed forces. Trying matter, but in that way, the military could take the lead. to reach a universal position on that protects not only our forces but our moral integrity. Chris Bryant: My experience of the armed forces is The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) nowhere near as extensive as the hon. Gentleman’s—mine pointed to another element of the debate on cluster relates only to the work of the armed forces parliamentary munitions, which is that they can be profoundly counter- scheme—but he is right that our military obviously productive. In many of the places where British troops have a key role to play in changing the world view of have been engaged in recent years, it has been far more other militaries around the world. Many such discussions difficult to win over hearts and minds if, day after day, take place, which is why I referred earlier to the significant children are losing their legs and their lives because role played by our defence attachés in other countries. unexploded artillery and ordnance eventually explodes. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) Mr. Keith Simpson: Will it be possible for the MOD asked about indirect financing and told us that the and Foreign Office to produce a paper before the Committee Swiss Government have legislated on that. If he does stage explaining the reasons why the Government’s not mind my saying so, that is slightly incorrect. The decision has changed? That would be very helpful to Swiss Parliament has passed a motion on the matter, hon. Members. but the Swiss Government have yet to act on it. If he looks at the written ministerial statement that I made in Chris Bryant: I am not sure that that is the right way December, he will see that we are keen to move on forward. I am quite happy to argue the case in indirect financing as fast and effectively as possible. Committee—it is the Government’s job to defend the However, as all hon. Members who mentioned such arguments we advance—but the primary issue is not financing this afternoon have said, it is very complex only ensuring that our defence personnel have the capability and it is difficult to know where the concept ends. What they require to do the job, but ensuring that our moral if a bank that dealt with another bank financed a peril and the physical peril to others, including the company whose main business was not providing or collateral damage that others sustain, is proportionate manufacturing cluster munitions, but providing insurance to the weaponry we use. That is an important part of for another company that did so? There are complications the doctrine that has been around in different forms for which it would be difficult to legislate at this point, from 1868, through to the Geneva protocol of 1925 and but we are keen to work with other countries on the the Landmines Act 1998. matter. Article 11 of the convention stipulates that meetings Mr. Lidington: In his proposal for a joint departmental of the states parties will begin later this year, after the paper in time for Committee, my hon. Friend the Member August commencement. Obviously, that will be an for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) was seeking to enable opportunity for us to monitor the process whereby we the House to understand the military’s judgment on move towards a much greater number of countries whether the loss of capability, which we all accept will signing up. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East happen, is of serious or relatively minor significance. complained about me rolling my eyes when he asked How do we measure that loss of capability when it whether NATO is the body through which to lobby comes to making the judgment to take the moral standard other countries, including NATO members that have that the Minister has described? not signed up, or the EU. The only reason I rolled my eyes is that I believe the place to lobby other countries is Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman will have to tease in the meetings of the states parties. We need to act not that out in Committee. The specific question he asked unilaterally, but with many others, so as to bring the earlier was whether the Chief of the Defence Staff is whole of the world community on board. At the moment, happy with the situation, and I can assure the hon. if we acted through NATO, we would unfortunately get Gentleman that he is. 925 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 17 MARCH 2010 Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill 926 [Lords] [Lords] [Chris Bryant] The hon. Gentleman is a good man and he makes good speeches. The hon. Member for Aylesbury raised the question The hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr. Holloway) of whether we would be advancing the measure in the made an interesting contribution based on his own overseas territories. The answer is that we will; that will experiences. I disagreed with him only on his point that be our standard procedure. The hon. Gentleman and we should retain or seek to retain the permission to several hon. Members asked about stockpiles in the have cluster weapons in extremis. This is the line we are UK. The American stockpiles will be gone from the drawing, and it is an end to cluster munitions. UK itself by the end of this year, and they will be gone from other UK territories, including Diego Garcia, by Mr. Holloway: We are talking about war. If we are the end of 2013. I hope that that clarifies things. going to fight wars, we have to equip our troops with Jo Swinson rose— every possible thing that they might need to do so. Chris Bryant: I am very hesitant to give way now, Chris Bryant: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on because I did so some 45 times in my first contribution, that point. but I will cluster interventions. The hon. Member for Leominster (Bill Wiggin) raised Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for his generosity in several questions and I hope that I have already dealt giving way to me for what I believe is the first time in with most of them. He asked about whether we would this debate. He said that weapons would be removed be in breach of article 1, but we would not, because of from Diego Garcia by 2013, but I want to press him on article 21 which makes specific provision on that point. verification, which I raised in my speech. How will we The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East referred to have certainty and transparency? Presumably, we are all the countries that are non-signatories. He can stand not going to rely on the Americans’ say-so. in no doubt that we will do everything that we can to try to bring as many countries on board as possible. He Chris Bryant: The transparency clauses in the Bill asked about the Argentine ordnance in the Falklands clearly enable us to do that—it is pretty straightforward, and whether it would be a good idea to get the Argentines and in any case, it stems originally from the convention. to deal with that. At this particular moment in time, it I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for would not be a good idea to encourage Argentines to Gower (Mr. Caton), because he has kept up his campaign travel to the Falklands. for a good number of years. He has been an assiduous I am glad that hon. Members have supported the Member and we could not have this legislation without broad principles of the Bill and I hope that we will have his contribution. He tabled early-day motion 1101 in unanimous support for its Second Reading. the previous Session, which congratulated the US Congress on its move to prohibit the export of cluster munitions Question put and agreed to. that failed in more than 1 per cent. of cases. There is a Bill accordingly read a Second time. possibility of change in other states around the world, and we need to move forward on that. My hon. Friend asked whether the destruction of CLUSTER MUNITIONS (PROHIBITIONS) BILL stockpiles will be permanent, which it will, and what we [LORDS] are doing to ensure universal application. Mainly, we Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing are trying to talk to every country where we have a key Order No. 83A(7)), relationship, especially a key military relationship, such That the following provisions shall apply to the Cluster Munitions as Turkey, Russia and the United States, to move that (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords]: forward. Committal The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole referred to the issue of Diego Garcia and I hope that I House. have answered her point. She also asked about transit Proceedings through the UK. That would not in itself be prohibited, 2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on consideration but a direct application would have to be made to the and proceedings on Third Reading shall be completed at one Secretary of State who would have to grant permission day’s sitting. before it could happen. We would be reluctant to grant 3. Proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on consideration such permission. The hon. Lady also asked about the US shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion stockpiles and I hope that I have answered those questions. one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which The hon. Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) made a those proceedings are commenced. wonderful speech. I hope that I unite all hon. Members 4. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously this afternoon if I say that he is one of our most decent concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Members, which I am sure is why the Anglican Church on that day. has made him an honorary canon. Fortunately, he did Programming Committee not go off this afternoon. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] He 5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall told us a moving story and I will write to the relevant not apply to proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on Department—although I am not sure which it would consideration or proceedings on Third Reading. be—to check up on the missing mines of Swanage Programming other proceedings beach. He also mentioned white phosphorus and depleted 6. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings uranium. At the end of “The Woodlanders”, it is said of on consideration of any messages from the Lords) may be Giles Winterbourne: programmed.—(Mr. Watts.) “For you was a good man, and did good things.” Question agreed to. 927 17 MARCH 2010 928

CLUSTER MUNITIONS (PROHIBITIONS) BILL Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) [LORDS] (MONEY) Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Queen’s recommendation signified. do now adjourn.—(Mr. Watts.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52)(1)(a), 3.34 pm That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise— Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any Pembrokeshire) (Lab): I begin by declaring an interest. I expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State under the Act, and am a trustee of the Pulmonary Hypertension Association. (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.— I am grateful to have the opportunity to raise this (Mr. Watts.) important subject, on which the Pulmonary Hypertension Question agreed to. Association, the British Lung Foundation, the Cystic Fibrosis Trust and other lung health organisations have Business without Debate been campaigning for some time. Disabled passengers, like anyone else, should have the right to access public transport, but people who need extra oxygen face poor DELEGATED LEGISLATION customer service from transport providers and unfair Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing extra fees. They are sometimes refused access to transport Order No. 118(6)), altogether. Airlines remain among the worst offenders, but buses and taxis have also turned those disabled ENVIRONMENT passengers away. That is unacceptable and needs to That the draft Environmental Civil Sanctions (England) change. Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 5 February, be Oxygen is a necessary medication for people with approved.—(Mr. Watts.) many different lung conditions. Pulmonary arterial Question agreed to. hypertension is an incurable and life-threatening condition Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that causes high blood pressure in the pulmonary arteries. Order No. 118(6)), It can result in breathlessness, chest pain, angina, fatigue and fainting spells; it can also result in heart failure. That the draft Environmental Civil Sanctions (Miscellaneous Amendments) (England) Regulations 2010, which were laid before Left untreated, half of sufferers would die within two this House on 5 February, be approved.—(Mr. Watts.) years, but new and effective treatments can give patients Question agreed to. much longer, fuller lives. Extra oxygen can help to ease breathing difficulties and greatly improve mobility for Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing people who would not be able to walk or move around Order No. 118(6)), at all without it. Oxygen used to be supplied only in large, bulky COMMUNITY INFRASTRUCTURE LEVY cylinders, which could be stored in a patient’s home but That the draft Community Infrastructure Levy Regulations not moved around. Now, it is available in much smaller, 2010, which were laid before this House on 10 February, be approved.—(Mr. Watts.) portable cylinders, or through electronic oxygen concentrators. There are different models of concentrator Question agreed to. available, but they are roughly the size of a large laptop computer or a small suitcase. These innovations have Petition given valuable freedom and mobility to pulmonary Mobile Telephone Mast (West Midlands) hypertension patients and sufferers of other lung disorders such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, cystic fibrosis and muscular dystrophy, allowing them to continue 3.32 pm to work and travel in a way that previously was not Lynda Waltho (Stourbridge) (Lab): I wish to present possible. However, that mobility and freedom are being a petition. It states: restricted by transport companies that refuse to carry The Petition of the constituents of Amblecote, Stourbridge their equipment. and others, The problem often results from a lack of awareness Declares that they object to the proposed erection of an O2 and misguided safety fears. The Department for Transport mobile phone mast at Hillfields Road, Brierley Hill, Stourbridge, has issued guidance on the transportation of dangerous Dudley, West Midlands because of the possible negative environmental goods, and it includes a section on the carriage of impact this could have on the area; the distraction the proposed oxygen cylinders on public transport. It states that mast would be to motorists who pass it; the uncertain health risks of locating a communications mast near homes, schools and play “there should not be a problem” areas; the lack of consideration given to sharing communications in non-smoking areas. Nowadays, of course, all areas of masts with other telecoms providers; and the apparent lack of public transport are non-smoking areas. The guidance consideration by O2 as to the concerns of local people of the notes that some carriers apply different policies on dangers of placing a mast near a school. oxygen, but it clarifies the matter by stating: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons “Any restrictions concerning the carriage of oxygen cylinders urges the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government for private use on public transport will be that of the carrier.” to do all in his power to object to the proposed mast as detailed in this petition. That is very clear. If carriers refuse to allow oxygen on And the Petitioners remain, etc. board, it is their own choice. There is nothing in law to prevent bus, train or plane companies from allowing [P000770] oxygen cylinders or concentrators on board. 929 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport)17 MARCH 2010 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) 930

[Nick Ainger] Bus and taxi providers need to improve, but the worst offenders are still the airlines. On 30 June last year, I However, over-cautious carriers are still ignoring that raised this matter in a Westminster Hall debate; the guidance and refusing to allow oxygen users access to Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend their services. Stagecoach recently refused to allow a the Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), responded to mother in Lancaster to board one of its buses with her that debate, too. I drew to the House’s attention the young son, who requires oxygen. The company stated airlines’ practice of refusing to allow passengers to that it was not allowed to carry oxygen, as it was a bring their own oxygen on board and then charging “hazardous product”. The baby’s father said: them between $50 and many hundreds of pounds for “He has to travel in a specially adapted pushchair that we have oxygen from the plane’s supply. had provided, but we didn’t realise we couldn’t use public transport. On some airlines, passengers are refused assistance We just feel penalised by the system, and it’s like we’re trapped in from the time they book to the moment of boarding the our own home sometimes because it stops us from being able to plane. The European Commission has issued guidance take him out.” on the provision of oxygen, stating that The parents now have to push their son into town with “airlines should always be in a position to give passengers who his oxygen for him to attend regular hospital appointments. have requested it accurate information about this specific service, Stagecoach stuck to its policy when challenged by the including costs, before booking”. local press, and a spokesman for the company said: It also states that legislation aims to “protect persons with reduced mobility against discrimination, “The law regarding passenger carrying vehicles prevents any and to ensure that they receive assistance.” hazardous products—including oxygen—from being carried on board. We are unable to take anything that’s potentially dangerous. However, evidence shows that that is not happening. It’s very unfortunate and if we were able to do anything to help A secret shopper survey of 71 airlines by the Pulmonary then we would do so.” Hypertension Association, published in its “Breathe Stagecoach is wrong. The Department for Transport’s Freely” report, showed that passengers spent an average guidance is clear: carrying oxygen is not a problem, and of 20 minutes on hold, sometimes at a premium rate, it is not potentially dangerous. I hope that the Department speaking to three different customer services advisers, will contact Stagecoach to make it crystal clear that the yet sometimes still not getting the information they company cannot hide behind the guidelines. needed on the airline’s oxygen policy. Some advisers promised to call back, but did not, while others gave Sadly, that is not an isolated incident. The British incorrect information, sometimes allowing passengers Lung Foundation heard from one passenger who was to book flights only to tell them later that they would told by Arriva that she was a fire risk, and other not be allowed to fly. An example is Jet2, which refused patients have also been turned away on so-called safety to refund a passenger who had to cancel her booking grounds. In some instances, refusals are bus company when it emerged that the airline had changed its policy policy, but in others, patients have found that they were and would no longer allow her to travel with a concentrator. allowed on the bus one day but turned away on the next Shockingly, some airlines refuse to reveal their own by a different driver. Inconsistencies are rife, and uncertainty policy and charges before a booking is made, yet the for patients is the result. ticket is no longer refundable. Qantas requires a booking People refused access to the bus or the tube might number before it will agree to calculate the fee that a want to take a taxi, but a patient in Birmingham who passenger will be charged for oxygen. That gives passengers was travelling on business reported to Air Products no chance to compare prices or make an informed Ltd—one of the suppliers of the NHS home oxygen choice between airlines. service, which runs patient forums for oxygen users—that Assistance is often poor during the flight as well as several taxi firms refused to take her booking when she during the booking process. One passenger who liaised told them she was carrying oxygen equipment. In the with Ryanair in advance to book her oxygen and who end, she had to conceal her cylinder in her bag in order had already paid her £100 fee was told, after she had to hire a taxi. boarded the plane, that the oxygen could not be provided, The situation is totally unacceptable. Disabled people so she would have to get off. She was left standing on should not have to fight, complain or hide their equipment the tarmac with her suitcase and was not even escorted in order to get what they are entitled to. I feel that the back to the terminal. She said: Department for Transport must work to raise awareness “The captain came to me and said that I would have to get off among carriers both in headquarters and among front-line the plane as they didn’t have the oxygen. The steward and the staff so that people who use oxygen can exercise their captain were so rude and not at all compassionate; all they right to use public transport along with everyone else. wanted was to get me off so they could take off. The fact that I had booked and paid for the oxygen was apparently irrelevant.” Bus and taxi firms could learn from Transport for We need much better enforcement of existing rules to London, whose staff also turned oxygen users away in protect oxygen users, who are not currently being given the past because of byelaws preventing passengers from the information and assistance to which they are entitled. carrying inflammable substances on the tube. However, We should also consider changing the rules to eliminate Transport for London has now agreed that medical loopholes that allow airlines to charge unfair fees to oxygen should be exempt and it is actively working to people requiring oxygen. Regulation (EC) No. 1107/2006 ensure that front-line staff are aware of that policy requires airlines to carry medical equipment free of change. It is considering issuing letters or “oxygen charge, but does not require them to allow the equipment passports” to patients who use the tube regularly, which in the cabin. The Department for Transport’s code of could be shown to any staff who express concern. That practice “Access to Air Travel for Disabled Persons and is an admirable scheme. I hope that it will be introduced Persons with Reduced Mobility” advises that soon and that it is adopted by bus and taxi providers “air carriers may approve the carriage of small gaseous oxygen or across the country. air cylinders required for medical use”, 931 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport)17 MARCH 2010 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) 932 and recommends that portable oxygen concentrator Given the growing momentum of the campaign for devices should normally be allowed if they are battery- oxygen concentrators to be provided to patients free of powered. However, those regulations are not binding, charge on the NHS, I hope that carriers will see more and ultimately the code of practice permits carriers who and more mobile oxygen-using patients looking to use wish to provide passengers with medical oxygen to their services. Now is the time to get the rules in order. I charge for the service. It allows airlines to flout the trust that the Department for Transport will look closely spirit of anti-discrimination law by refusing passengers at what action it can take to raise awareness, enforce permission to bring either their concentrators or their guidelines and improve the regulations so that this cylinders on board, and then charging significant fees problem can be eliminated. for centrally provided oxygen. That, in my view, should not be allowed. 3.50 pm Currently, although most airlines allow designated concentrators on board, only a third of them allow The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport cylinders, and the vast majority charge fees to people (Paul Clark): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member who need to use the airline supply. According to the for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire (Nick secret shopper survey, six airlines did not allow either a Ainger) on securing this debate; it is his second debate concentrator or a cylinder on board but charged to on this issue in the past nine months. I recognise his provide the oxygen: Aer Arann, which charges £72 per commitment, and also the hard work of the British sector, LOT Polish Airlines, which charges £136 per Lung Foundation, the Pulmonary Hypertension sector, Malaysia Airlines, which charges £400 return, Association, of which he is a trustee, the Muscular Qantas, whose charge varies according to flow rate and Dystrophy Campaign and the Cystic Fibrosis Trust. distance, and Alitalia. Alitalia charges the cost of a They are rightly determined to raise the issue on behalf second seat, which could amount to many hundreds of of the travelling public, and in particular those who pounds. That is clearly outrageous. require this service so that they have the freedom to Over the past eight years the Pulmonary Hypertension travel and are not constrained within the four walls of Association, a relatively small charity, has had to spend their home when the technological developments to £60,000 of its own limited resources on grant to enable which my hon. Friend has referred now allow a degree patients to pay additional airline charges for oxygen. of portability and freedom that could only have been a Besides the ones that I have already mentioned, many pipe dream just a few years ago. I welcome this opportunity European airlines charge: Aer Lingus, Air France, Austrian to respond to the points raised by my hon. Friend. Airlines, Brussels Airlines, Cyprus Air, Czech Airlines, First, let me address aviation. I hope my hon. Friend KLM, Lufthansa, Ryanair, Scandinavian Airlines, Swiss will not be disappointed to learn that the position is still International Air Lines, and Thomas Cook Airlines. essentially the same as when we last debated this matter They charge different rates, but many run into at least in June; the law is the same as it was nine months ago. three figures. My hon. Friend’s remarks, and the names of the many I welcome the decision by Thomson Airways, one of international airlines he has read into the record, highlight the major charter airlines, to drop its charges. Long-haul the fact that this is an issue for the international community. scheduled airlines such as British Airways, Cathay Pacific, It raises matters that need to be dealt with across the Virgin Atlantic and Emirates have already scrapped sector through the international law that the International charges, as have budget airlines such as EasyJet and Civil Aviation Organisation has put in place to support CityJet and charter airlines such as Thomson Airways and help aviation consumers, and through the European and First Choice. If those airlines can provide the Union for EU states. EU regulation 1107/2006 establishes service free, so can others. However, far too many the rights of those persons who are disabled or have airlines are refusing to back down. reduced mobility for whatever reason. It is fully supported The rules need to change to stop that practice. At by the UK Government and has full applicability in European level, the United Kingdom Government must UK law under our statutory instrument 2007/1895. make strong representations on the review of regulation While it is true that this regulation does not impose 1107/2006, which is due to take place later this year, so specific duties on airlines to carry or provide oxygen that the requirements can be tightened to require carriers within the cabin, in order to help the UK air transport specifically to allow certified concentrators to be carried industry comply with its obligations under the regulation, in the cabin on all flights landing or taking off from an the Department for Transport has issued a code of airport in the European Union. That is the law in the practice, to which my hon. Friend referred: the “Access United States of America, so there is no reason why it to Air Travel for Disabled Persons and Persons with could not work here. An added advantage would be that Reduced Mobility” guidance. The latest edition of the all airlines, not just those based in the UK, would have code was published in July 2008 and it includes a to comply. section on oxygen. It advises that air carriers may The code of practice “Access to Air Travel for Disabled approve the carriage of small gaseous oxygen or air Persons and Persons with Reduced Mobility” should cylinders which are required for medical use, but that also be revised to prevent airlines from charging to carriers must also be able to ensure that they do not provide oxygen if they do not allow a passenger to bring pose a risk to security.Indeed, advice given by TRANSEC, their own. If some airlines can operate without charging the body that provides the security advisers in the sector their disabled passengers extra, all can; and if they will who monitor such matters, recognises that in all usual not change their policies voluntarily, guidelines must circumstances, they should not cause a problem. become obligations. When advances in treatments and technology give back the chance to work and travel to Nick Ainger: I hear what the Minister is saying. people who would otherwise have been housebound, However, there is something I cannot accept, and which carriers must not be able to take that away. the PHA and the British Lung Foundation certainly 933 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport)17 MARCH 2010 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) 934

[Nick Ainger] My hon. Friend raised issues relating to other forms of public transport. On the use of personal oxygen on cannot accept. A number of airlines already accept trains, the decision as to whether cylinders can be small oxygen cylinders in the cabin for the personal use carried is down to the individual train operating company, of patients. Why on earth can we not say that, if it is but all operators are likely to allow passengers carrying good enough for those airlines, it applies across the portable personal oxygen supplies to board. The conditions board? The practical issue of security and so on has of carriage may vary between different companies and, clearly been overcome by those airlines. Why can this therefore, we always recommend that passengers who not apply to all airlines? may need to transport oxygen cylinders first contact the relevant operator to check what restrictions may apply. Paul Clark: Regarding the code we issue to assist Contact details are available via the national rail website. airlines and to enable interpretation, we are clear that I should say that some of the train operators make that is possible, but that code is based on the EU things clearer and set out in their conditions of service regulation so it would be difficult to go beyond that for that they will allow this—Southeastern, which runs the UK only. Indeed, in the cases that my hon. Friend services in my patch, is very clear that this is permitted. listed, many UK-based airlines have a good record in Some passengers may require physical assistance in meeting the needs of those who require this service. boarding and alighting, and that can be booked through We should recognise that since the last discussion of the assisted passenger reservation service. That can be this issue in the House, Thomson Airways and First accessed through the same sources, for example, the Choice have come on board. I pay tribute to my hon. national rail web portal, and 24 hours’ notice should Friend and to all the organisations that have raised this usually be allowed so that arrangements can be put in issue and kept it in the public domain. There has to be place. an international solution and international regulations, but the work that has been undertaken has convinced Nick Ainger: We are talking, again, about relatively airlines to rise to the challenge, which is why such small cylinders and concentrators. Transport for London movement has happened. Today’s debate helps in that is proposing that there should be a proviso whereby process of focusing minds. somebody should have a letter or other confirmation to show that their cylinder or concentrator is kosher and has been checked for security purposes. In such Nick Ainger: I accept everything that the Minister is circumstances, why should people have to give 24 hours’ saying, but EC regulation 1107/2006 is being reviewed. notice to use a train? If we are really saying to these Is that not an opportunity to use the regulation itself, or people that they will be treated the same as other an addendum to it, to make it absolutely clear that people—the same as people who use a wheelchair, for airlines are expected to allow people to bring on board example—surely they should be able to buy their ticket their own personal oxygen cylinders or concentrators and walk on in the same way that anybody else does. for use in the cabin? Surely that is an issue that can be cleared up this year. Paul Clark: I accept what my hon. Friend is saying. Perhaps I should make it clearer that the assisted passengers Paul Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that reservation service was introduced to help people with the current regulation is due for review. I am sure that physical disability—those in wheelchairs, for example— all interested parties will clearly express their views as to rather than to address issues about portable oxygen its shortcomings, and we as a Government will put our supplies and so on. Having said that, I must add that own experiences on the record as well. our “Access for All” programme to improve railway This is a relatively new regulation—2006—and I would stations the length and breadth of the country is trying not want unnecessarily to lead the House to believe that to make sure that that is not a necessity, so that those great changes may happen because it is relatively new. people have the same freedom to move about as any one Having said that, I absolutely agree with my hon. of us in this Chamber. That work continues and we Friend that this is an opportunity that should not be continue to make that investment in the transport missed, and I am sure that he and the organisations to infrastructure so that they have access at any time, like which we have referred will take every opportunity to everybody else. press the case at European level at the right time. In respect of buses—I shall discuss my concerns Equally, the Government will ensure that these issues about Stagecoach in a moment—it is fair to say that the are recognised. issue is one of safety. The carriage of oxygen tanks on The European law as it stands seeks to strike a buses and in taxis would not normally be considered balance between the needs of the particular group of hazardous in the small quantities that we are talking consumers and the commercial requirements of the about for personal requirements. That is covered by the airline. We urge all airlines to be clear about charges Public Service Vehicles (Conditions of Fitness, Equipment, and provisions, so that when people make their purchases Use and Certification) Regulations 1981, which are very and decisions they have an informed choice about the clear. Obviously, no person should use a public vehicle services and so on that they can rightly expect. Many of with something that might be highly inflammable or the UK-based airlines are leading the way and are otherwise dangerous. Provision is set out in those showing other European-based carriers the way forward, regulations, but my hon. Friend was right to say that as well as doing so on a wider international stage. The our guidance makes it clear that there should be no Malaysia Airlines example just reinforces the fact that such problem regarding the quantities that we are talking further work is required at an international level so that about. I am distressed to hear of the incident to which we ensure that people have the freedom to travel as far he referred that involved a mum and son being turned and as widely as possible. away from a bus, run by Stagecoach in that case. I 935 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport)17 MARCH 2010 Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) 936 believe that he also mentioned a story involving Arriva. They have done a sterling job in raising its profile. My I certainly give him an undertaking that I will take up hon. Friend can rest assured that we will continue to that issue and I shall correspond with him accordingly. work on that basis. That incident should not have happened and we want to ensure that people in such a position have the opportunity Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Inow to move as freely as anyone else. have to announce the results of the Divisions deferred Finally, on the subject of ships and ferries, I am not from a previous day. On the first motion relating to aware of any difficulties that have arisen in using personal children and young persons, the Ayes were 253 and the oxygen on board ferries or on cruise ships. Indeed, Noes were 188, so the Question was agreed to. On the passenger needs are often met efficiently. On ferries, second motion relating to children and young persons, passengers who require medical oxygen may carry a the Ayes were 252 and the Noes were 189, so the limited quantity of up to 60 litres, provided the passenger Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to has a letter from a doctor. I am not aware of any such representation of the people of Northern Ireland, the issues. As this debate affords me the opportunity to do Ayes were 303 and the Noes were 139, so the Question so, I shall put on the record the fact that if there are was agreed to. On the motion relating to Northern similar cases of people being turned away on such a Ireland, the Ayes were 301 and the Noes were 138, so basis—particularly from those forms of transport that the Question was agreed to. make up the backbone of our transport system, with [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s buses in particular being involved in some 5 billion debates.] journeys a year, or from ships and ferries—we would be Question put and agreed to. grateful to receive that information. We will continue to ensure that UK-based operators recognise the code, use it and work with it, and we will continue to work with 4.8 pm our colleagues who work in the charities on this matter. House adjourned. 937 17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 938

Deferred Divisions Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Pope, Mr. Greg Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Pound, Stephen Hope, Phil Prentice, Mr. Gordon CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS (REGULATED Hopkins, Kelvin Price, Adam ACTIVITY) Howarth, rh Mr. George Primarolo, rh Dawn That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 Howells, rh Dr. Kim Prosser, Gwyn (Regulated Activity, Devolution and Miscellaneous Provisions) Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Purchase, Mr. Ken Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 27 January, be Iddon, Dr. Brian Rammell, Bill approved. Illsley, Mr. Eric Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick The House divided: Ayes 253, Noes 188. Jenkins, Mr. Brian Reed, Mr. Andy Division No. 113] Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, John Johnson, Ms Diana Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey R. Rooney, Mr. Terry AYES Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Ainger, Nick Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Lynne Ruane, Chris Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cummings, John Jones, Mr. Martyn Ruddock, Joan Anderson, Mr. David Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Russell, Christine Anderson, Janet Cunningham, Tony Joyce, Mr. Eric Salter, Martin Armstrong, rh Hilary Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Keeble, Ms Sally Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Atkins, Charlotte David, Mr. Wayne Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Austin, Mr. Ian Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Alan Sharma, Mr. Virendra Austin, John Davies, Mr. Dai Keen, Ann Shaw, Jonathan Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davies, Mr. Quentin Kelly, rh Ruth Sheerman, Mr. Barry Bain, Mr. William Dean, Mrs. Janet Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Baird, Vera Denham, rh Mr. John Knight, rh Jim Simpson, Alan Balls, rh Ed Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Skinner, Mr. Dennis Banks, Gordon Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lammy, rh Mr. David Slaughter, Mr. Andy Barlow, Ms Celia Dobbin, Jim Laxton, Mr. Bob Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Donohoe, Mr. Brian Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Ms Angela C. Bayley, Hugh H. Lepper, David (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Beckett, rh Margaret Doran, Mr. Frank Levitt, Tom Smith, rh Angela E. Begg, Miss Anne Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr. Ivan (Basildon) Bell, Sir Stuart Drew, Mr. David Linton, Martin Smith, Geraldine Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Jacqui Benton, Mr. Joe Eagle, Angela Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Snelgrove, Anne Berry, Roger Eagle, Maria Love, Mr. Andrew Soulsby, Sir Peter Betts, Mr. Clive Efford, Clive MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Southworth, Helen Blizzard, Mr. Bob Ellman, Mrs. Louise Mallaber, Judy Spellar, rh Mr. John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Engel, Natascha Mann, John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Borrow, Mr. David S. Fitzpatrick, Jim Marris, Rob Stoate, Dr. Howard Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Flello, Mr. Robert Marsden, Mr. Gordon Straw, rh Mr. Jack Brennan, Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Lyn Flynn, Paul Martlew, Mr. Eric Tami, Mark Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Follett, Barbara McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Taylor, Ms Dari Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Mr. Michael McCabe, Steve Taylor, Dr. Richard Browne, rh Des (Worcester) McCafferty, Chris Thomas, Mr. Gareth Bryant, Chris Foster, Michael Jabez McCarthy, Kerry Tipping, Paddy Buck, Ms Karen (Hastings and Rye) McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Todd, Mr. Mark Burden, Richard Francis, Dr. Hywel McFall, rh John Touhig, rh Mr. Don Burgon, Colin Gapes, Mike McIsaac, Shona Trickett, Jon Burnham, rh Andy Gardiner, Barry McKenna, Rosemary Truswell, Mr. Paul Butler, Ms Dawn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Meale, Mr. Alan Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Gilroy, Linda Merron, Gillian Turner, Dr. Desmond Cairns, David Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh Edward Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr. Alan Griffith, Nia Miller, Andrew Ussher, Kitty Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Griffiths, Nigel Moffatt, Laura Vaz, rh Keith Caton, Mr. Martin Grogan, Mr. John Mole, Chris Walley, Joan Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hain, rh Mr. Peter Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Waltho, Lynda Chapman, Ben Hall, Mr. Mike Morden, Jessica Ward, Claire Chaytor, Mr. David Hall, Patrick Morgan, Julie Watson, Mr. Tom Clark, Ms Katy Hamilton, Mr. David Mountford, Kali Watts, Mr. Dave Clark, Paul Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Mullin, Mr. Chris Whitehead, Dr. Alan Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hanson, rh Mr. David Murphy, Mr. Denis Wicks, rh Malcolm Clarke,rhMr.Tom Harris, Mr. Tom Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Williams, rh Mr. Alan Clelland, Mr. David Havard, Mr. Dai Norris, Dan Williams, Mrs. Betty Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hepburn, Mr. Stephen O’Hara, Mr. Edward Williams, Hywel Coffey, Ann Heppell, Mr. John Olner, Mr. Bill Wilson, Phil Connarty, Michael Hermon, Lady Osborne, Sandra Winnick, Mr. David Cooper, Rosie Hesford, Stephen Owen, Albert Wright, Mr. Anthony Cooper, rh Yvette Heyes, David Palmer, Dr. Nick Wright, David Corbyn, Jeremy Hill, rh Keith Pearson, Ian Wright, Dr. Tony Creagh, Mary Hodge, rh Margaret Plaskitt, Mr. James Wyatt, Derek 939 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 940

NOES Robathan, Mr. Andrew Tapsell, Sir Peter Robertson, Hugh Tredinnick, David Afriyie, Adam Hammond, Stephen Rowen, Paul Turner, Mr. Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Russell, Bob Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Alexander, Danny Harper, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Amess, Mr. David Harris, Dr. Evan Vara, Mr. Shailesh Scott, Mr. Lee Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Harvey, Nick Viggers, Sir Peter Selous, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Heald, Mr. Oliver Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Shapps, Grant Baker, Norman Heath, Mr. David Walker, Mr. Charles Simmonds, Mark Baldry, Tony Heathcoat-Amory, rh Waterson, Mr. Nigel Simpson, David Baron, Mr. John Mr. David Watkinson, Angela Simpson, Mr. Keith Barrett, John Hemming, John Webb, Steve Smith, Chloe Beith, rh Sir Alan Hendry, Charles Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Smith, Sir Robert Bellingham, Mr. Henry Hoban, Mr. Mark Wiggin, Bill Soames, Mr. Nicholas Benyon, Mr. Richard Holmes, Paul Willetts, Mr. David Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Horam, Mr. John Williams, Mark Spicer, Sir Michael Binley, Mr. Brian Howarth, David Williams, Mr. Roger Spink, Bob Blunt, Mr. Crispin Howarth, Mr. Gerald Spring, Mr. Richard Williams, Stephen Bone, Mr. Peter Howell, John Streeter, Mr. Gary Willis, Mr. Phil Boswell, Mr. Tim Hughes, Simon Stuart, Mr. Graham Willott, Jenny Bottomley, Peter Huhne, Chris Stunell, Andrew Wilson, Mr. Rob Brady, Mr. Graham Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Swayne, Mr. Desmond Winterton, Ann Brake, Tom Hunter, Mark Swinson, Jo Winterton, Sir Nicholas Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hurd, Mr. Nick Swire, Mr. Hugo Wright, Jeremy Browning, Angela Jack, rh Mr. Michael Syms, Mr. Robert Young, rh Sir George Burns, Mr. Simon Jackson, Mr. Stewart Burrowes, Mr. David Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Burstow, Mr. Paul Jones, Mr. David Question accordingly agreed to. Burt, Alistair Kawczynski, Daniel Burt, Lorely Keetch, Mr. Paul Cable, Dr. Vincent Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS (CONTROLLED Campbell, Mr. Gregory Key, Robert ACTIVITY) Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Kirkbride, Miss Julie That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Knight, rh Mr. Greg (Controlled Activity and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations Cash, Mr. William Laing, Mrs. Eleanor 2010, which were laid before this House on 2 February, be Clappison, Mr. James Lait, Mrs. Jacqui approved. Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Lamb, Norman The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 189. Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Lancaster, Mr. Mark Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Laws, Mr. David Division No. 114] Cormack, Sir Patrick Leech, Mr. John Crabb, Mr. Stephen Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver AYES Curry, rh Mr. David Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ainger, Nick Bryant, Chris Davey, Mr. Edward Ian Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Buck, Ms Karen Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Lidington, Mr. David Anderson, Mr. David Burden, Richard Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey Loughton, Tim Anderson, Janet Burgon, Colin M. Luff, Peter Armstrong, rh Hilary Burnham, rh Andy Duddridge, James Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Atkins, Charlotte Butler, Ms Dawn Duncan, Alan Main, Anne Austin, Mr. Ian Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Malins, Mr. Humfrey Austin, John Cairns, David Dunne, Mr. Philip May, rh Mrs. Theresa Bailey, Mr. Adrian Campbell, Mr. Alan Ellwood, Mr. Tobias McCrea, Dr. William Bain, Mr. William Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Evans, Mr. Nigel McIntosh, Miss Anne Baird, Vera Caton, Mr. Martin Evennett, Mr. David McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Balls, rh Ed Cawsey, Mr. Ian Fabricant, Michael Miller, Mrs. Maria Banks, Gordon Chapman, Ben Fallon, Mr. Michael Milton, Anne Barlow, Ms Celia Chaytor, Mr. David Featherstone, Lynne Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Clark, Ms Katy Field, Mr. Mark Moss, Mr. Malcolm Bayley, Hugh Clark, Paul Foster, Mr. Don Mulholland, Greg Beckett, rh Margaret Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Francois, Mr. Mark Murrison, Dr. Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Fraser, Christopher Neill, Robert Bell, Sir Stuart Clelland, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Newmark, Mr. Brooks Benn, rh Hilary Coaker, Mr. Vernon Garnier, Mr. Edward O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Benton, Mr. Joe Coffey, Ann Gauke, Mr. David Öpik, Lembit Berry, Roger Connarty, Michael Gibb, Mr. Nick Osborne, Mr. George Betts, Mr. Clive Cooper, Rosie Gidley, Sandra Ottaway, Richard Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Paice, Mr. James Blunkett, rh Mr. David Corbyn, Jeremy Goodman, Mr. Paul Penning, Mike Borrow, Mr. David S. Creagh, Mary Goodwill, Mr. Robert Prisk, Mr. Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cryer, Mrs. Ann Grayling, Chris Pritchard, Mark Brennan, Kevin Cummings, John Greening, Justine Pugh, Dr. John Brown, Lyn Cunningham, Mr. Jim Gummer, rh Mr. John Randall, Mr. John Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cunningham, Tony Hague, rh Mr. William Redwood, rh Mr. John Brown, Mr. Russell Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Hammond, Mr. Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Browne, rh Des David, Mr. Wayne 941 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 942

Davidson, Mr. Ian Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Shaw, Jonathan Todd, Mr. Mark Davies, Mr. Quentin Knight, rh Jim Sheerman, Mr. Barry Touhig, rh Mr. Don Dean, Mrs. Janet Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Sheridan, Jim Trickett, Jon Denham, rh Mr. John Lammy, rh Mr. David Simpson, Alan Truswell, Mr. Paul Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Laxton, Mr. Bob Skinner, Mr. Dennis Turner, Dr. Desmond Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr. Andy Twigg, Derek Dobbin, Jim Lepper, David Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Ussher, Kitty Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Levitt, Tom Smith, Ms Angela C. Vaz, rh Keith Doran, Mr. Frank Lewis, Mr. Ivan (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Walley, Joan Dowd, Jim Linton, Martin Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Waltho, Lynda Drew, Mr. David Lloyd, Tony Smith, Geraldine Ward, Claire Eagle, Angela Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Smith, rh Jacqui Watson, Mr. Tom Eagle, Maria Love, Mr. Andrew Snelgrove, Anne Watts, Mr. Dave Efford, Clive MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Soulsby, Sir Peter Whitehead, Dr. Alan Ellman, Mrs. Louise Mallaber, Judy Southworth, Helen Wicks, rh Malcolm Engel, Natascha Mann, John Spellar, rh Mr. John Williams, rh Mr. Alan Fitzpatrick, Jim Marris, Rob Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Flello, Mr. Robert Marsden, Mr. Gordon Stoate, Dr. Howard Williams, Mrs. Betty Flint, rh Caroline Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Straw, rh Mr. Jack Williams, Hywel Flynn, Paul Robert Stuart, Ms Gisela Wilson, Phil Follett, Barbara Martlew, Mr. Eric Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr. David Foster, Mr. Michael McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Taylor, Ms Dari Wright, Mr. Anthony (Worcester) McCabe, Steve Taylor, Dr. Richard Wright, David Foster, Michael Jabez McCafferty, Chris Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wright, Dr. Tony (Hastings and Rye) McCarthy, Kerry Tipping, Paddy Wyatt, Derek Francis, Dr. Hywel McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Gapes, Mike McFall, rh John NOES Gardiner, Barry McIsaac, Shona Gerrard, Mr. Neil McKenna, Rosemary Afriyie, Adam Duddridge, James Gilroy, Linda Meale, Mr. Alan Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Duncan, Alan Goodman, Helen Merron, Gillian Alexander, Danny Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Griffith, Nia Michael, rh Alun Amess, Mr. David Iain Griffiths, Nigel Miliband, rh Edward Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Dunne, Mr. Philip Grogan, Mr. John Miller, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Hain, rh Mr. Peter Moffatt, Laura Baker, Norman Evans, Mr. Nigel Hall, Mr. Mike Mole, Chris Baldry, Tony Evennett, Mr. David Hall, Patrick Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Baron, Mr. John Fabricant, Michael Hamilton, Mr. David Morden, Jessica Barrett, John Fallon, Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Morgan, Julie Beith, rh Sir Alan Featherstone, Lynne Hanson, rh Mr. David Mountford, Kali Bellingham, Mr. Henry Field, Mr. Mark Harris, Mr. Tom Mullin, Mr. Chris Benyon, Mr. Richard Foster, Mr. Don Havard, Mr. Dai Murphy, Mr. Denis Beresford, Sir Paul Francois, Mr. Mark Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Binley, Mr. Brian Fraser, Christopher Heppell, Mr. John Norris, Dan Blunt, Mr. Crispin Gale, Mr. Roger Hermon, Lady O’Hara, Mr. Edward Bone, Mr. Peter Garnier, Mr. Edward Hesford, Stephen Olner, Mr. Bill Boswell, Mr. Tim Gauke, Mr. David Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Bottomley, Peter Gibb, Mr. Nick Hill, rh Keith Owen, Albert Brady, Mr. Graham Gidley, Sandra Hodge, rh Margaret Palmer, Dr. Nick Brake, Tom Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Pearson, Ian Browne, Mr. Jeremy Goodman, Mr. Paul Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Plaskitt, Mr. James Browning, Angela Goodwill, Mr. Robert Hope, Phil Pope, Mr. Greg Burns, Mr. Simon Grayling, Chris Hopkins, Kelvin Pound, Stephen Burrowes, Mr. David Greening, Justine Howarth, rh Mr. George Prentice, Mr. Gordon Burstow, Mr. Paul Gummer, rh Mr. John Howells, rh Dr. Kim Price, Adam Burt, Alistair Hague, rh Mr. William Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Primarolo, rh Dawn Burt, Lorely Hammond, Mr. Philip Iddon, Dr. Brian Prosser, Gwyn Cable, Dr. Vincent Hammond, Stephen Illsley, Mr. Eric Purchase, Mr. Ken Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hands, Mr. Greg Jenkins, Mr. Brian Rammell, Bill Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr. Mark Johnson, rh Alan Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Harris, Dr. Evan Johnson, Ms Diana Reed, Mr. Andy Cash, Mr. William Harvey, Nick R. Robertson, John Clappison, Mr. James Heald, Mr. Oliver Jones, Helen Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Heath, Mr. David Jones, Lynne Rooney, Mr. Terry Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Heathcoat-Amory, rh Jones, Mr. Martyn Roy, Lindsay Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Mr. David Jowell, rh Tessa Ruane, Chris Cormack, Sir Patrick Hemming, John Joyce, Mr. Eric Ruddock, Joan Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hendry, Charles Keeble, Ms Sally Russell, Christine Curry, rh Mr. David Hoban, Mr. Mark Keeley, Barbara Salter, Martin Davey, Mr. Edward Holmes, Paul Keen, Alan Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Davies, Mr. Dai Horam, Mr. John Keen, Ann Seabeck, Alison Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Howarth, David Kelly, rh Ruth Sharma, Mr. Virendra Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Howarth, Mr. Gerald 943 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 944

Howell, John Redwood, rh Mr. John Banks, Gordon Donohoe, Mr. Brian Hughes, Simon Reid, Mr. Alan Barlow, Ms Celia H. Huhne, Chris Robathan, Mr. Andrew Barrett, John Doran, Mr. Frank Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dowd, Jim Hunter, Mark Rowen, Paul Bayley, Hugh Drew, Mr. David Hurd, Mr. Nick Russell, Bob Beckett, rh Margaret Durkan, Mark Jack, rh Mr. Michael Sanders, Mr. Adrian Begg, Miss Anne Eagle, Angela Jackson, Mr. Stewart Scott, Mr. Lee Beith, rh Sir Alan Eagle, Maria Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Selous, Andrew Bell, Sir Stuart Efford, Clive Jones, Mr. David Shapps, Grant Benn, rh Hilary Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kawczynski, Daniel Simmonds, Mark Benton, Mr. Joe Engel, Natascha Keetch, Mr. Paul Simpson, David Berry, Roger Featherstone, Lynne Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Simpson, Mr. Keith Betts, Mr. Clive Fitzpatrick, Jim Key, Robert Smith, Chloe Blizzard, Mr. Bob Flello, Mr. Robert Kirkbride, Miss Julie Smith, Sir Robert Blunkett, rh Mr. David Flint, rh Caroline Knight, rh Mr. Greg Soames, Mr. Nicholas Borrow, Mr. David S. Flynn, Paul Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Follett, Barbara Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Spicer, Sir Michael Brake, Tom Foster, Mr. Don Lamb, Norman Spink, Bob Brennan, Kevin Foster, Mr. Michael Lancaster, Mr. Mark Spring, Mr. Richard Brown, Lyn (Worcester) Laws, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Foster, Michael Jabez Leech, Mr. John Stuart, Mr. Graham Brown, Mr. Russell (Hastings and Rye) Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Stunell, Andrew Browne, rh Des Francis, Dr. Hywel Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Swayne, Mr. Desmond Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gapes, Mike Lidington, Mr. David Swinson, Jo Bryant, Chris Gardiner, Barry Loughton, Tim Swire, Mr. Hugo Buck, Ms Karen Gerrard, Mr. Neil Luff, Peter Syms, Mr. Robert Burden, Richard Gidley, Sandra Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Tapsell, Sir Peter Burgon, Colin Gilroy, Linda Main, Anne Tredinnick, David Burnham, rh Andy Goodman, Helen Malins, Mr. Humfrey Turner, Mr. Andrew Burstow, Mr. Paul Griffith, Nia May, rh Mrs. Theresa Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Burt, Lorely Griffiths, Nigel McCrea, Dr. William Vara, Mr. Shailesh Butler, Ms Dawn Grogan, Mr. John McIntosh, Miss Anne Viggers, Sir Peter Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hain, rh Mr. Peter McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cable, Dr. Vincent Hall, Mr. Mike Miller, Mrs. Maria Walker, Mr. Charles Cairns, David Hall, Patrick Milton, Anne Waterson, Mr. Nigel Campbell, Mr. Alan Hamilton, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Watkinson, Angela Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Moss, Mr. Malcolm Webb, Steve Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hanson, rh Mr. David Mulholland, Greg Widdecombe, rh Miss Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Harris, Dr. Evan Murrison, Dr. Andrew Ann Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Harris, Mr. Tom Neill, Robert Wiggin, Bill Caton, Mr. Martin Harvey, Nick Newmark, Mr. Brooks Willetts, Mr. David Cawsey, Mr. Ian Havard, Mr. Dai O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Williams, Mark Chapman, Ben Heath, Mr. David Öpik, Lembit Williams, Mr. Roger Chaytor, Mr. David Hemming, John Osborne, Mr. George Williams, Stephen Clark, Ms Katy Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Ottaway, Richard Willis, Mr. Phil Clark, Paul Heppell, Mr. John Paice, Mr. James Willott, Jenny Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hermon, Lady Penning, Mike Wilson, Mr. Rob Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hesford, Stephen Prisk, Mr. Mark Winterton, Ann Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Heyes, David Pritchard, Mark Winterton, Sir Nicholas Clelland, Mr. David Hill, rh Keith Pugh, Dr. John Wright, Jeremy Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hodge, rh Margaret Randall, Mr. John Young, rh Sir George Coffey, Ann Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Connarty, Michael Holmes, Paul Question accordingly agreed to. Cooper, Rosie Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Cooper, rh Yvette Hope, Phil Corbyn, Jeremy Hopkins, Kelvin REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (NORTHERN IRELAND) Creagh, Mary Howarth, David That the draft European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Cryer, Mrs. Ann Howarth, rh Mr. George Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2010, which were laid before Cummings, John Howells, rh Dr. Kim this House on 24 February, be approved. Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay The House divided: Ayes 303, Noes 139. Cunningham, Tony Hughes, Simon Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Huhne, Chris Division No. 115] Davey, Mr. Edward Humble, Mrs. Joan David, Mr. Wayne Hunter, Mark AYES Davidson, Mr. Ian Iddon, Dr. Brian Ainger, Nick Austin, Mr. Ian Davies, Mr. Quentin Illsley, Mr. Eric Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Austin, John Dean, Mrs. Janet Jenkins, Mr. Brian Alexander, Danny Bailey, Mr. Adrian Denham, rh Mr. John Johnson, rh Alan Anderson, Mr. David Bain, Mr. William Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Johnson, Ms Diana Anderson, Janet Baird, Vera Dismore, Mr. Andrew R. Armstrong, rh Hilary Baker, Norman Dobbin, Jim Jones, Helen Atkins, Charlotte Balls, rh Ed Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Jones, Lynne 945 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 946

Jones, Mr. Martyn Pugh, Dr. John Wilson, Phil Wright, David Jowell, rh Tessa Purchase, Mr. Ken Winnick, Mr. David Wright, Dr. Tony Joyce, Mr. Eric Rammell, Bill Wright, Mr. Anthony Wyatt, Derek Keeble, Ms Sally Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Keeley, Barbara Reed, Mr. Andy NOES Keen, Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Keen, Ann Robertson, John Afriyie, Adam Jackson, Mr. Stewart Keetch, Mr. Paul Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Kelly, rh Ruth Rooney, Mr. Terry Amess, Mr. David Jones, Mr. David Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Rowen, Paul Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Roy, Lindsay Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Key, Robert Knight, rh Jim Ruane, Chris Baldry, Tony Kirkbride, Miss Julie Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Baron, Mr. John Knight, rh Mr. Greg Lamb, Norman Russell, Bob Bellingham, Mr. Henry Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Lammy, rh Mr. David Russell, Christine Benyon, Mr. Richard Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Laws, Mr. David Salter, Martin Beresford, Sir Paul Lancaster, Mr. Mark Laxton, Mr. Bob Sanders, Mr. Adrian Binley, Mr. Brian Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Lazarowicz, Mark Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Blunt, Mr. Crispin Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Leech, Mr. John Seabeck, Alison Bone, Mr. Peter Lidington, Mr. David Lepper, David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Boswell, Mr. Tim Loughton, Tim Levitt, Tom Shaw, Jonathan Bottomley, Peter Luff, Peter Lewis, Mr. Ivan Sheerman, Mr. Barry Brady, Mr. Graham Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Linton, Martin Sheridan, Jim Browning, Angela Main, Anne Lloyd, Tony Simpson, Alan Burns, Mr. Simon Malins, Mr. Humfrey Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Simpson, David Burrowes, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Love, Mr. Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Burt, Alistair McIntosh, Miss Anne MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Slaughter, Mr. Andy Cash, Mr. William McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Mallaber, Judy Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Clappison, Mr. James Miller, Mrs. Maria Mann, John Smith, Ms Angela C. Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Milton, Anne Marris, Rob (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Crabb, Mr. Stephen Moss, Mr. Malcolm Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Smith, Geraldine Curry, rh Mr. David Mundell, David Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, rh Jacqui Davies, Mr. Dai Murrison, Dr. Andrew McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, Sir Robert Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Neill, Robert McCabe, Steve Snelgrove, Anne Duddridge, James Newmark, Mr. Brooks McCafferty, Chris Soulsby, Sir Peter Duncan, Alan O’Brien, Mr. Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Southworth, Helen Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Osborne, Mr. George McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Spellar, rh Mr. John Dunne, Mr. Philip Ottaway, Richard McCrea, Dr. William Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Paice, Mr. James McFall, rh John Stoate, Dr. Howard Evans, Mr. Nigel Penning, Mike McIsaac, Shona Straw, rh Mr. Jack Evennett, Mr. David Prisk, Mr. Mark McKenna, Rosemary Stuart, Ms Gisela Fabricant, Michael Pritchard, Mark Meale, Mr. Alan Stunell, Andrew Fallon, Mr. Michael Randall, Mr. John Merron, Gillian Swinson, Jo Field, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Francois, Mr. Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Miliband, rh Edward Taylor, Ms Dari Fraser, Christopher Robertson, Hugh Miller, Andrew Thomas, Mr. Gareth Gale, Mr. Roger Scott, Mr. Lee Moffatt, Laura Tipping, Paddy Garnier, Mr. Edward Selous, Andrew Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Gauke, Mr. David Shapps, Grant Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Gibb, Mr. Nick Simmonds, Mark Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Simpson, Mr. Keith Morgan, Julie Truswell, Mr. Paul Goodman, Mr. Paul Smith, Chloe Mountford, Kali Turner, Dr. Desmond Goodwill, Mr. Robert Soames, Mr. Nicholas Mulholland, Greg Twigg, Derek Grayling, Chris Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Mullin, Mr. Chris Ussher, Kitty Greening, Justine Spicer, Sir Michael Murphy, Mr. Denis Vaz, rh Keith Gummer, rh Mr. John Spink, Bob Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Walley, Joan Hague, rh Mr. William Spring, Mr. Richard Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda Hammond, Mr. Philip Streeter, Mr. Gary O’Hara, Mr. Edward Ward, Claire Hammond, Stephen Stuart, Mr. Graham Olner, Mr. Bill Watson, Mr. Tom Hands, Mr. Greg Swayne, Mr. Desmond Öpik, Lembit Watts, Mr. Dave Harper, Mr. Mark Swire, Mr. Hugo Osborne, Sandra Webb, Steve Heald, Mr. Oliver Syms, Mr. Robert Owen, Albert Whitehead, Dr. Alan Heathcoat-Amory, rh Tapsell, Sir Peter Palmer, Dr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Mr. David Tredinnick, David Pearson, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hendry, Charles Turner, Mr. Andrew Plaskitt, Mr. James Williams, Mrs. Betty Hoban, Mr. Mark Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Pope, Mr. Greg Williams, Hywel Horam, Mr. John Vara, Mr. Shailesh Pound, Stephen Williams, Mark Howarth, Mr. Gerald Viggers, Sir Peter Prentice, Mr. Gordon Williams, Mr. Roger Howell, John Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Price, Adam Williams, Stephen Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Walker, Mr. Charles Primarolo, rh Dawn Willis, Mr. Phil Hurd, Mr. Nick Waterson, Mr. Nigel Prosser, Gwyn Willott, Jenny Jack, rh Mr. Michael Watkinson, Angela 947 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 948

Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Winterton, Ann Gidley, Sandra Mann, John Wiggin, Bill Winterton, Sir Nicholas Gilroy, Linda Marris, Rob Willetts, Mr. David Wright, Jeremy Goodman, Helen Marsden, Mr. Gordon Wilson, Mr. Rob Young, rh Sir George Griffith, Nia Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Griffiths, Nigel Martlew, Mr. Eric Question accordingly agreed to. Grogan, Mr. John McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCabe, Steve Hall, Mr. Mike McCafferty, Chris NORTHERN IRELAND Hall, Patrick McCarthy, Kerry That the draft Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962 Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy-Fry, Sarah (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCrea, Dr. William 24 February, be approved. Hanson, rh Mr. David McFall, rh John The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 138. Harris, Dr. Evan McIsaac, Shona Harris, Mr. Tom McKenna, Rosemary Division No. 116] Harvey, Nick Meale, Mr. Alan Havard, Mr. Dai Merron, Gillian AYES Heath, Mr. David Michael, rh Alun Ainger, Nick Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hemming, John Miliband, rh Edward Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Chapman, Ben Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Miller, Andrew Alexander, Danny Chaytor, Mr. David Heppell, Mr. John Moffatt, Laura Anderson, Mr. David Clark, Ms Katy Hermon, Lady Mole, Chris Anderson, Janet Clark, Paul Hesford, Stephen Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Armstrong, rh Hilary Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Heyes, David Morden, Jessica Atkins, Charlotte Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hill, rh Keith Morgan, Julie Austin, Mr. Ian Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hodge, rh Margaret Mountford, Kali Austin, John Clelland, Mr. David Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mulholland, Greg Bailey, Mr. Adrian Coaker, Mr. Vernon Holmes, Paul Mullin, Mr. Chris Bain, Mr. William Coffey, Ann Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Murphy, Mr. Denis Baird, Vera Connarty, Michael Hope, Phil Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Baker, Norman Cooper, Rosie Hopkins, Kelvin Norris, Dan Balls, rh Ed Cooper, rh Yvette Howarth, David O’Hara, Mr. Edward Banks, Gordon Corbyn, Jeremy Howarth, rh Mr. George Olner, Mr. Bill Barlow, Ms Celia Cryer, Mrs. Ann Howells, rh Dr. Kim Öpik, Lembit Barrett, John Cummings, John Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Osborne, Sandra Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hughes, Simon Owen, Albert Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Tony Huhne, Chris Palmer, Dr. Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Humble, Mrs. Joan Pearson, Ian Begg, Miss Anne Davey, Mr. Edward Hunter, Mark Plaskitt, Mr. James Beith, rh Sir Alan David, Mr. Wayne Iddon, Dr. Brian Pope, Mr. Greg Bell, Sir Stuart Davidson, Mr. Ian Illsley, Mr. Eric Pound, Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Davies, Mr. Quentin Jenkins, Mr. Brian Prentice, Mr. Gordon Benton, Mr. Joe Dean, Mrs. Janet Johnson, rh Alan Price, Adam Berry, Roger Denham, rh Mr. John Johnson, Ms Diana R. Primarolo, rh Dawn Betts, Mr. Clive Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jones, Helen Prosser, Gwyn Blizzard, Mr. Bob Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Mr. Martyn Pugh, Dr. John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Dobbin, Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Purchase, Mr. Ken Borrow, Mr. David S. Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Joyce, Mr. Eric Rammell, Bill Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keeble, Ms Sally Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Brake, Tom Doran, Mr. Frank Keeley, Barbara Reed, Mr. Andy Brennan, Kevin Dowd, Jim Keen, Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Brown, Lyn Drew, Mr. David Keen, Ann Robertson, John Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Durkan, Mark Keetch, Mr. Paul Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Brown, Mr. Russell Eagle, Angela Kelly, rh Ruth Rooney, Mr. Terry Browne, rh Des Eagle, Maria Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Rowen, Paul Browne, Mr. Jeremy Efford, Clive Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Roy, Lindsay Bryant, Chris Ellman, Mrs. Louise Knight, rh Jim Ruane, Chris Buck, Ms Karen Engel, Natascha Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Burden, Richard Featherstone, Lynne Lamb, Norman Russell, Bob Burgon, Colin Fitzpatrick, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Russell, Christine Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Mr. Robert Laws, Mr. David Salter, Martin Burstow, Mr. Paul Flint, rh Caroline Laxton, Mr. Bob Sanders, Mr. Adrian Burt, Lorely Flynn, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Butler, Ms Dawn Follett, Barbara Leech, Mr. John Seabeck, Alison Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Foster, Mr. Don Lepper, David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Cable, Dr. Vincent Foster, Mr. Michael Levitt, Tom Shaw, Jonathan Cairns, David (Worcester) Lewis, Mr. Ivan Sheerman, Mr. Barry Campbell, Mr. Alan Foster, Michael Jabez Linton, Martin Sheridan, Jim Campbell, Mr. Gregory (Hastings and Rye) Lloyd, Tony Simpson, Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Francis, Dr. Hywel Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Simpson, David Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gapes, Mike Love, Mr. Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Gardiner, Barry MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Slaughter, Mr. Andy Caton, Mr. Martin Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mallaber, Judy Smith, rh Mr. Andrew 949 Deferred Divisions17 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 950

Smith, Ms Angela C. Twigg, Derek Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Murrison, Dr. Andrew (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Ussher, Kitty Goodman, Mr. Paul Neill, Robert Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Vaz, rh Keith Goodwill, Mr. Robert Newmark, Mr. Brooks Smith, Geraldine Walley, Joan Grayling, Chris O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Smith, rh Jacqui Waltho, Lynda Greening, Justine Osborne, Mr. George Smith, Sir Robert Ward, Claire Gummer, rh Mr. John Ottaway, Richard Snelgrove, Anne Watson, Mr. Tom Hague, rh Mr. William Paice, Mr. James Soulsby, Sir Peter Watts, Mr. Dave Hammond, Mr. Philip Penning, Mike Southworth, Helen Webb, Steve Hammond, Stephen Prisk, Mr. Mark Spellar, rh Mr. John Whitehead, Dr. Alan Hands, Mr. Greg Pritchard, Mark Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wicks, rh Malcolm Harper, Mr. Mark Randall, Mr. John Stoate, Dr. Howard Williams, rh Mr. Alan Heald, Mr. Oliver Redwood, rh Mr. John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Williams, Mrs. Betty Heathcoat-Amory, rh Robathan, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Williams, Hywel Mr. David Robertson, Hugh Stunell, Andrew Williams, Mark Hendry, Charles Scott, Mr. Lee Swinson, Jo Williams, Mr. Roger Hoban, Mr. Mark Selous, Andrew Tami, Mark Williams, Stephen Horam, Mr. John Shapps, Grant Taylor, Ms Dari Willis, Mr. Phil Howarth, Mr. Gerald Simmonds, Mark Thomas, Mr. Gareth Willott, Jenny Howell, John Simpson, Mr. Keith Tipping, Paddy Wilson, Phil Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Smith, Chloe Todd, Mr. Mark Winnick, Mr. David Hurd, Mr. Nick Soames, Mr. Nicholas Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wright, Mr. Anthony Jack, rh Mr. Michael Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Trickett, Jon Wright, David Jackson, Mr. Stewart Spicer, Sir Michael Truswell, Mr. Paul Wright, Dr. Tony Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spink, Bob Turner, Dr. Desmond Wyatt, Derek Jones, Mr. David Spring, Mr. Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Streeter, Mr. Gary NOES Key, Robert Stuart, Mr. Graham Kirkbride, Miss Julie Swire, Mr. Hugo Afriyie, Adam Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Knight, rh Mr. Greg Syms, Mr. Robert Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Tapsell, Sir Peter Amess, Mr. David Crabb, Mr. Stephen Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Tredinnick, David Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Curry, rh Mr. David Lancaster, Mr. Mark Turner, Mr. Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Davies, Mr. Dai Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Baldry, Tony Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Baron, Mr. John Duddridge, James Vara, Mr. Shailesh Lidington, Mr. David Viggers, Sir Peter Bellingham, Mr. Henry Duncan, Alan Loughton, Tim Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Benyon, Mr. Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Luff, Peter Walker, Mr. Charles Beresford, Sir Paul Dunne, Mr. Philip Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Waterson, Mr. Nigel Binley, Mr. Brian Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Main, Anne Watkinson, Angela Blunt, Mr. Crispin Evans, Mr. Nigel Malins, Mr. Humfrey Bone, Mr. Peter Evennett, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Boswell, Mr. Tim Fabricant, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Wiggin, Bill Bottomley, Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Willetts, Mr. David Brady, Mr. Graham Field, Mr. Mark Miller, Mrs. Maria Wilson, Mr. Rob Browning, Angela Francois, Mr. Mark Milton, Anne Winterton, Ann Burns, Mr. Simon Fraser, Christopher Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Winterton, Sir Nicholas Burrowes, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wright, Jeremy Burt, Alistair Garnier, Mr. Edward Mundell, David Young, rh Sir George Cash, Mr. William Gauke, Mr. David Clappison, Mr. James Gibb, Mr. Nick Question accordingly agreed to. 251WH 17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 252WH

The issue involves the abuse of some of the most Westminster Hall vulnerable people in our country, if not our society—they are barely in our society. For many of us on the left side of politics, such issues are what brought us into public Wednesday 17 March 2010 life and politics in the first place. However, of course, concern does not exist only on the left. We must [MR.JOE BENTON in the Chair] acknowledge the huge contribution made by the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen)—I want to call him my hon. Friend—who chairs the all-party parliamentary Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) group on the trafficking of women and children. It is Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting probably one of our most active all-party groups and be now adjourned.—(David Wright.) has an impressive track record, having organised an important meeting with the Minister on 24 November 9.30 am to highlight the abuse of migrant domestic workers and the workings of the migrant domestic worker visa system. Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): It is a pleasure His response is still sought. to be under your guidance, Mr. Benton, for what is I understand that the all-party group has set up probably the last Adjournment debate of my time in 11 such groups in Parliaments across Europe. That is a Parliament. I am particularly pleased to have the genuine example of how the much-maligned all-party opportunity to praise the work of not only some superb parliamentary group system can forge important links non-governmental organisations active on this issue but across national boundaries. those right hon. and hon. Members who have been more involved with the subject than I have been. Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con) rose— I am a member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, which in 2008 produced a strong and hard-hitting Martin Salter: It is my great privilege to give way to report on the obscenity of human trafficking. The title the hon. Gentleman. of this debate refers to visa rights for migrant domestic Mr. Steen: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman—my workers, but it will become apparent that what we are hon. Friend, if I may call him that. We all feel great actually discussing is a secret slavery taking place a affection for the Minister. We enjoy his company and stone’s throw away from this building. For the most think that he does a jolly good job. It is true that on abused groups of vulnerable workers, the dark ages are 24 November, I took a delegation of some of the most still happening, just around the corner from this mother senior people in this House and the House of Lords, of Parliaments. It is a scar on this country that such along with representatives from Kalayaan—a group to things occur within our borders; it is certainly a scar on which I pay tribute—to see him and explain to him the the conscience of the diplomatic missions that use terrible problem of domestic slavery among diplomatic diplomatic immunity and their privileged position to overseas staff. He understood the point, and the group treat fellow human beings in the most appalling, disgusting, and I were left in no doubt that he would act on it. dehumanising and disgraceful manner. It must stop. However, lovely as it is to see him here, I hope that he That will be the thrust of my contribution and, I am will be able to tell us that today is his opportunity to put sure, the contributions made by other right hon. and matters right. hon. Members. Before I come to the substance of the debate, I would Martin Salter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that like to thank Kalayaan for its work. Kalayaan is a intervention. I remain optimistic that when the Minister charity offering direct support to migrant domestic hears the power of our arguments, he will cast aside the workers. It was instrumental in arguing for the new bleating and whining of the Foreign and Commonwealth migrant domestic worker visa, which has worked, as I Office and other powerful vested interests, be forthright will demonstrate, but which sadly does not extend to and join us as a brother in arms on the issue. I have no migrant domestic workers employed in diplomatic missions. doubt about it; at least, I certainly hope that he will if Kalayaan runs advice sessions with a focus on immigration he wants to stay on my Christmas card list. and employment, as well as an excellent community Before 1997—this is not a party political point—migrant centre, which I had the privilege to visit the other week. domestic workers had virtually no rights. They were It also runs activities for clients, including English classes, brought into this country by wealthy foreign nationals, training, and confidence building workshops. It hosts a and probably by even wealthier British expats, who, I social area, too—a safe space where migrant domestic am assured, like continuity in their domestic servants. workers can meet other people and access advice and There was no specific visa. Migrant domestic workers support away from the ever-watchful eyes of their wealthy were often given a bizarre “to work with” stamp on employers. their passports. It was a grey area. Alternatively, they The newspapers are full of criticism of my trade were brought in on tourist visas and encouraged to union, Unite—the old Transport and General Workers overstay, as they would then have absolutely no rights. Union—of which I am proud to be a member, as I will Their passports were often confiscated, leaving them be until my dying day. I pay tribute to the work of totally in thrall to their employers. Migrant domestic Diana Holland of Unite, who has made the issue of workers’ undocumented status effectively created a bonded migrant domestic workers a personal crusade. I am labour scheme, which was undoubtedly a trigger for delighted that she might be heartened, depending on abuse. the Minister’s answers—I know that he wants to agree In the 1997 manifesto, the Labour party committed with me—by the continued progress that we could make to introducing a new migrant domestic worker visa that on the issue if we used the powers available to us. would allow workers independence from their employers. 253WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 254WH

[Martin Salter] If hon. Members will bear with me, I wish to share some horrific case studies. I apologise for going on at It was launched in 1998. I have no doubt that a Government length, Mr. Benton, but this is an important issue and I of almost any political persuasion would have wanted wish to put the case studies on the record. I am indebted to address the issue, but it is to the credit of this to Kalayaan for this information. I will cite four examples: Government and the Minister’s colleagues that the visa two from the domestic sector and two from the diplomatic was introduced. sector. The names have been changed for obvious reasons. The migrant domestic worker visa is now issued to The first case study gives proof that the visa works if people entering the UK accompanying an employer to the domestic worker understands the rights that they work in the employer’s private household. It provides can access. It is the story of Rosy, who comes from protection against abuse. It provides formal recognition Nigeria: of migrants as workers and allows them to change “My name is Rosy. Life was hard ever since my childhood. employers, although not their work sector. Migrant Fatherless at the age of 8, I had to help my mother to look after domestic workers are therefore no longer bonded to a my siblings while she was away to work in the farm. I was an out specific employer. It was a civilising and thoroughly of school youth at the age of 14 because my mother could not laudable change, introduced by this Government. afford my education anymore. I had to face humiliation when my boyfriend left me pregnant. A teenage mum at 16, I was too The visa may be renewed annually, provided that the young to face this kind of heavy responsibility but I had to be worker continues to be employed full time as a domestic strong and brave. Without any qualification, I set off in another worker in a private household. It provides an escape land in Nigeria in search for a job that would give my daughter route from bonded labour for people suffering abuse. I and family a better life.” will cite some harrowing case studies later to illustrate She went on to work in difficult circumstances. what types of abuse occur. Nevertheless, migrant domestic workers across the piece still experience high levels of In 2004, Rosy was offered work in London for people abuse and exploitation. There is now at least an escape who needed a domestic worker: route through the visa system, but that system does not “The employer said that I will have the opportunity to be a apply to the staff of diplomatic missions. That will be British citizen and I will be paid 50 pounds per week which was the nub of my argument. higher compared to my 2000 Naire per month. I was reluctant to accept the job because I was too frightened that I will be all alone Things nearly went wrong. In 2006, the Government in a foreign land with no-one to turn to. But my dream of giving introduced the points-based system, which the Home my family a better life had softened my heart to accept the job.” Affairs Committee considered in some detail. For some This is the shocking part: reason, initial proposals were made to abolish the migrant domestic worker visa, which would have resulted in the “My employer is a lawyer. I did not know anything about my legal rights in this country and I only had to depend and believe loss of the current protection for migrant domestic every single word or command that she has to say.My responsibilities workers, who instead would have had to enter the UK were looking after her two children and fully in charge of all the on a six-month, non-renewable visa that would tie them household chores and in some occasions, looking after her extended completely to their employer and give them no effective family and friends. With long hours of work and no day off, I had access to UK law. However, following campaigning by to pray for midnight to come so that at least I could rest for a few the all-party group and Kalayaan, the Government hours. gave a welcome response. My employer began to abuse me both verbally and physically. In 2008, the Government response to a consultation My ears were already numb from her shouting, calling me illiterate on visitors to the UK gave a commitment to retaining and stupid. Worst, more often, she would twist my ear, pinch and slap me for every little mistake that I had done. She would the migrant domestic worker visa, at least until spring threaten me and say that the police will arrest me if I cry or talk to 2011. I shall read into the record the response from the anyone. I cried every night and asked God, ‘Is this the life I Minister’s predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member deserve?’ or ‘Are all people in this country as heartless as my for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Byrne): employer?’ or ‘Is it true that, in this country, I could not speak out “In our consultation paper, we set out the current arrangements and cry?’ I thought, gone are those days where people have to for overseas domestic workers who accompany their employer to work as slaves but I was a slave, a modern slave in these modern the UK, recognising stakeholder concerns that such workers may days. be the target of employer abuse and exploitation. We explained One day, I received a call from my brother back home. Worried that research and analysis was being conducted into the route, that something bad was happening with my family back home, I following which we would consult further on future arrangements. rushed outside to buy an international phone card. However, my We are committed to ensuring that future arrangements concerning employer did not allow me to go outside without asking permission, overseas domestic workers minimise any risk of abuse or exploitation. and she discovered that I had disobeyed her golden rules. She was In addition, the current route will be preserved and then reviewed very angry and began to shout and beat me. She smacked me as appropriate after the first two years’ operation of the reformed around my face, head and upper body while chasing me down the immigration system and when we will have properly road tested stairs. My left eye was bruised and bloodshot after this incident. our antitrafficking strategy.” As I could not bear the pain, I cried very loudly and our He confirmed that point in a follow-up letter to Diana neighbour heard the noise and knocked on the door but my employer did not open the door.” Holland of Unite, so it is on the record that the Government are committed to that policy, at least until 2011. The lawyer did not open the door. Rosy goes on: Today, the Minister can not only commit this “One morning, the neighbour saw my bruised eye and asked Government to the policy, but say that he will tie the about it. I told her everything and she explained to me that my hands of a future Government so that they have to employer had no right to abuse me and that I could report her to the police and most importantly, she said I had the right to speak continue with it, because it works. By tying the hands of out. I finally found answers to my questions. This kind and loving a future Government, we might untie the hands of woman did everything to help me so that I could get out of that people who are forced into mediaeval, feudal slavery. I cage where I was treated, not as a human being but as an animal hope that he will rise to that challenge. and a slave. 255WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 256WH

An organisation called Kalayaan helped me with everything I He took me to the police to report what had happened and needed and referred me to the Kensington Law Centre who they sent me to the hospital. The man then took me to see helped me pursue the case against my employer which I won in Kalayaan to see what could be done for me. They agreed to help the Employment Tribunal.” me seek justice. Despite working for 6 months I had not been paid Hon. Members need to appreciate that without the a penny. But apart from wanting my rightful earnings I really wanted to make sure that the diplomat and his wife were punished migrant domestic worker visa, there would have been for what they did to me. no opportunity to access the employment rights or the Lawyers helped me take the case to a tribunal, my employer legal protection that other workers enjoy. never responded and on the evidence they had been given, the Rosy continues: tribunal ruled in my favour and awarded me compensation for “I also received support from Liberty. The police’s initial unpaid wages and sexual discrimination. The only problem is that response was that no crime had taken place because it was an obviously my employers have diplomatic immunity and the Embassy employment issue. Thanks to Liberty, the police have now reopened sent them home to avoid further embarrassment.” the case and are investigating an allegation of trafficking against That means that Aliah’s employers have escaped punishment my previous employer. and it is impossible for her to receive the compensation Although the Employment Tribunal found that my employer and justice that she deserves. withheld my wages, abused me verbally and physically and There are countless other cases. I have information discriminated against me on grounds of my race, I do not feel that about a lady called Chinue from Kenya who was beaten I have had justice for the way that I was treated. My employer is a lawyer and I wanted her to know that she is not supposed to treat appallingly and psychologically abused by her employer. people in the way she treated me. She should know that she is not Luckily, she has been able to find work through the above the law. I wanted the police to ask her why she did it and for POPPY project and has put her life back on track her to be punished. Most of all, I do not want anyone else to have again. Another case concerns Maria from the Philippines, to go through what I went through. who worked for the family of a diplomat in his home I am now fully aware of my rights as a worker and as a human and agreed to accompany him to London. The conditions being, I dare to challenge and am always ready to face bravely any were nothing like she expected. She had to sleep on the forms of abuse, discrimination, inequality and slavery in this floor in the hallway outside the bathroom, and she was modern world.” made to sign something that stated she was receiving That was Rosy’s story. more salary than she was. She was forced to work for The next story is from the diplomatic sector. The 18 hours a day, and she was shouted at and called an name has again been changed for fear of reprisals. illiterate idiot or mountain folk by the diplomat’s wife. Aliah jumped at the opportunity to work for a diplomat Maria came to Kalayaan for advice when she discovered posted to the embassy of a middle eastern country in that her only choice was to return to the Philippines London, but her dream job soon turned into a nightmare. because her visa does not cover the diplomatic area. She She found herself trapped for six months in slavery with was distraught at that news. Things got worse in the an employer who routinely abused her. She says: house. Two months later, Maria was physically attacked “At first I was really excited to move to London and work for by the diplomat’s wife who tried to slash her with a the diplomat and his wife. The plan was that I would live with the kitchen knife, and Maria fled. She took a case against family and be a nanny to their young son. I hoped to learn her employer, but settled for a very low amount because English, and experience what life was like outside of my country. I she wanted to move on with her life. thought I could earn some money so that when I came home I could study. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate I moved to London with the diplomat a couple of weeks before the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this important his wife and child arrived. I quickly realized I had made a terrible adjournment debate. It is good to hear the news that the mistake in taking the job. From the very first day I was treated like Government will extend the visa scheme until 2011. I a slave, and it immediately became clear that the diplomat wanted sympathise with the hon. Gentleman because we have more from me than just to look after his son. He sexually molested me and would become angry when I refused his advances. had four similar cases in my constituency. Does he agree that it is essential we get this right, because we cannot In many ways life became even worse when the diplomat’s wife arrived. I was forced to work for 17 hours a day doing all the operate some of our most essential services in Great cooking and cleaning as well as the nanny work and was never Britain without these people? allowed a day off. The wife would stand over me and criticize everything I did. She would get violent and throw things at me as Martin Salter: I agree entirely. I thank the hon. well as shouting at me and calling me names. Gentleman for his contribution and for confirming that I was completely trapped like this for 6 months. I was only ever the problem is clearly not just confined to London—unless allowed to leave the house to buy milk. I am embarrassed to he has moved constituencies. It is useful to hear that admit it but I actually used to look forward to going to the shop. such an appalling situation is widespread, as it puts It was the only chance I had to see the outside world. more pressure on the Minister to respond publicly. One day the diplomat got really angry with me. His wife had thrown me out of the house and when, after walking around for a Mr. Steen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? few hours, I returned, the diplomat was drunk and furious. I was too scared even to answer as to where I had been, he became Martin Salter: Very briefly. really violent, he threw me against the wall and started bashing my head against the front door. I was so scared that I knew I had to escape, when a car passed and stopped I seized my chance. Mr. Steen: The hon. Gentleman need not rush. There is plenty of time and everyone wants to hear what he I ran straight into the street. I didn’t know anybody, didn’t have has to say—I certainly do. May I just mention that the any identity documents and didn’t have any money. I was crying uncontrollably and bleeding from my head, I was lucky that a problem is not confined to women? Men are abused too. man who spoke my language spotted me. Eventually I explained I recollect that a man who was a diplomatic driver for to him that I needed his help and though he was a complete an embassy spent his life in a garage, where he slept. stranger he took me in and agreed to help me. Does the hon. Gentleman know about that case? 257WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 258WH

Martin Salter: Do I know about that case? I saw that In many cases, workers have absolutely no knowledge case. I will not name the embassy because it would of their immigration rights and status. If their passports probably be inappropriate for me to cause an international and papers are confiscated, the employer has the absolute incident in my last two weeks as an MP. However, I will whip hand. Such workers live in fear of criminal say that it was a south Asian high commissioner’s prosecution, deportation or any sort of threat—valid or residence. If people want to look at my interests in otherwise—that the employer can choose to make. We south Asia, they can probably work it out. I was invited outlawed slavery in 1833, which was an awfully long to a very salubrious dinner at the high commissioner’s—we time ago. As far as I can see, what is happening is little all get to go to such things from time to time. I was better than a 21st-century system of slavery. appalled to walk out of that residence in a palatial part What needs to be done next? First, as I said, the of north London and see that the accommodation of Minister and his colleagues deserve great praise for not the guy who picked me up—the driver for the high only tackling the abuse of migrant domestic workers in commissioner—was a garage. He showed me where his the past by introducing a specific visa, but wanting to bed was. Such things are happening with impunity and extend it beyond the 2011 commitment given by his they are an abuse of immunity. predecessor in the Government’s response. My first As we know, the migrant domestic worker visa was challenge to the Minister is that he takes this opportunity introduced from 1998 onwards. People may argue that to offer long-term protection for this most vulnerable if we extend the visa to the diplomatic sector, large group of workers, beyond 2011. He can do that today; numbers of people would get protection, and possibly he can it read it into the record. the right to settle permanently in the UK in certain circumstances. It was also argued—I think primarily by Secondly, as I have mentioned, appalling and completely civil servants—that introducing the migrant domestic unacceptable abuse is still occurring in some—not all— worker visa could lead to abuse and an increase in diplomatic missions in London right now. It is an numbers. I am delighted to say that has not proved to be affront to a civilised society and a scar on the conscience the case. If we consider the number of non-diplomatic of nations whose representatives are still prepared to domestic worker visas issued between 2005 and 2009, treat their fellow human beings as 21st-century slaves. we see that the figure decreases from 16,908 to 14,897. What they do in their own countries is one thing, but Let us be clear: the process has not been abused. On what they do in our country is a matter for us and for extending the scheme to diplomatic staff, the numbers this Parliament. Frankly, I do not give a flying fig about of diplomatic domestic workers visas that have been the representations from the Foreign and Commonwealth issued are: 235 in 2005, 324 in 2006, 253 in 2007, and Office or the worries about upsetting important 189 in 2008. Those are tiny numbers. There is no problem international partners. This is a domestic British issue, with extending the migrant domestic workers visa provision and it needs to be resolved. to protection for diplomatic staff. We are talking small We have confirmation from Government lawyers that numbers, but my goodness, we are talking high levels extending the migrant workers domestic visa to diplomatic of abuse. missions would not be in contravention of the Vienna Figures on the people who were referred to or came convention on diplomatic relations. What diplomats voluntarily to Kalayaan—they can be found on its bring in their diplomatic bags may be a matter for them, website in its excellent annual report—show that 17 per but how they treat fellow human beings and how they cent. reported physical assaults, 58 per cent. reported bring fellow human beings as workers into our country psychological abuse and 59 per cent. were not allowed is a matter for us and for our legislative process. Migrant out of the house without supervision. We allow our pets domestic workers suffering abuse at the hands of diplomats out of the house without supervision, yet fellow human must be empowered to access the same employment beings are effectively being shackled in their place of rights as their counterparts in the domestic sector. work. Will the Minister state today that he is prepared to Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Has the hon. bring an end to the disgraceful abuse of diplomatic Gentleman had the opportunity to get in touch with the domestic workers by a handful of embassies that clearly diplomatic service, because there is an organisation that believe that human rights are a problem for someone represents diplomats as a whole? Has he taken the else and not for them? Diplomatic immunity can never matter up with that organisation, because it sounds as if be used as a cover for feudal servitude, which has no this is such an outrageous abuse that something should place on this planet, never mind in the capital city of be done either by the law or by internal diplomatic one of the most advanced democracies in the world. activity? The people concerned should be ashamed of themselves. 10 am Martin Salter: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: they should be ashamed of themselves. I will Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate the come to that point later. Unfortunately, I have not had hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) on his time to take the matter up with organisations representing impressive and fluent speech and on raising a critical diplomats. I must say to him that the more I read of issue in the way he did, and I thank you, Mr. Benton, these case studies, frankly, the less I want to be in a for calling me to speak. I will not speak for long, as I am room with organisations representing diplomats. However, supposed to be, if not looking after, at least involved in I am sure that those who succeed me in this place will an Albanian delegation from the Inter-Parliamentary not let the baton drop until we remove the appalling Union, at a meeting in the IPU Rooms. I hope it will not levels of abuse that are happening not just in London be seen as a discourtesy to hon. Members if I do not but in other parts of the United Kingdom, as I have just stay for the winding-up speeches, but I will be listening heard. in every other way to what the Minister says. 259WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 260WH

We need not recite the problem, as the hon. Gentleman and then face an alternative that they believe could be has explained it. I understand the Minister’s concerns even worse—if they are deported from the United Kingdom and those of the Government. The issue, roughly, is that their situation may become even worse in their home developed countries, such as those in western Europe, countries. have staff coming in to assist people who need domestic help, which is nothing special. Between 14,000 and Mr. Steen: That is the problem, and it is more than 16,000 people a year get domestic work visas, which do just that those workers come from poor countries. The not entitle any of them to live in the UK permanently. I real problem is that they go back having failed in the think they must renew the visas yearly—the Minister UK, and their small village communities think they are can correct me—and can go on doing so, although they a pariah and that they cannot be employed because must also report to the police annually. I do not think something must have happened. They cannot go back they have any right to settle here. The Minister’s advisers easily. They can go back easily once the diplomat’s will be telling him whether I got that right, but I think I family returns because that will look like they have been did, largely because he told me about it. successful, but if they are deported by the British There is no problem on the domestic front, thanks to Government, which is the pattern, they have no future the Government’s decision to change the rules, as the at all. That is the picture we have in this country. hon. Member for Reading, West said, and until 2011 it is a totally safe arrangement. The hon. Gentleman Mr. Cash: Does my hon. Friend agree that much of asked whether it will go beyond 2011, and I believe the the attitude that lies behind the behaviour of the diplomatic Minister should today state that it will be extended for staff in question is in fact mediaeval? The hon. Member another three or five years, because it has worked well for Reading, West (Martin Salter)mentioned slavery, an and been a success. issue on which my family were very much involved in The problem relates to the small number of domestic the 19th century, along with other Quakers such as workers who come to the UK under a diplomatic visa, Fowell Buxton. They understood that the importance which is a restrictive visa, and who often arrive with the of ensuring that people had their rights was absolute. officials they worked for in the countries they come We have moved on from the whole culture of master from. They might be chauffeurs, domestics or nannies, and servant, which even I had to learn when I was and often they arrive with a diplomat’s family. The training to be a lawyer. Do my hon. Friend and the allegation is that the family changes, in the manner of Minister agree that it would be a good idea to ensure Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, as soon as they arrive. One that the diplomatic service comes into the modern age must have some regard for the notion that the domestic and leaves that mediaeval culture? workers talk to other people and realise that they are getting a pretty rough deal by comparison. I am fully Mr. Steen: We always stand in awe when my hon. aware of that aspect of the situation, but another aspect Friend makes such suggestions. He is perfectly right to is the abuse of domestics. say that we need to change the master and servant I pay considerable tribute to Kalayaan, which is a concept. We are talking about quite a number of embassies modest organisation that meets in a church in Notting and officials who treat their staff like animals, or worse. Hill Gate. It has extremely effective staff who have done an amazing job over the years to attract people who are Martin Salter: It was remiss of me not to refer to the being abused. Kalayaan has become known as a place process by which we are all here. Wouldthe hon. Gentleman where abused people can get solace, support and practical pay tribute to the excellent piece in The Times in January help. I pay tribute to the organisation and its workers, by Alice Fishburn and Hattie Garlick highlighting the who are outstanding. Its runs on a shoestring. In fact, brilliant work of Kalayaan, and some the case studies the Government might consider supporting it a little, to which I referred? I put on the record my thanks to the because they give £1.8 million to the POPPY project staff in my office, including Sadie Smith, whom I do not and £1.8 million to the UK Human Trafficking Centre, treat like slaves, who drew the matter to my attention yet they give nothing to an organisation that actually and suggested that it was something I might like to get works with people. Perhaps the Minister might respond involved in. It is a tribute to the way this Parliament to that comment in his winding-up speech, because I works that a Member can spot an injustice and in a few know he is listening carefully. The Government should weeks be here challenging the Minister. Long may it be giving money to non-governmental organisations, remain that way. and not just the big ones. There is a small number of abused women in that Mr. Steen: That is also a tribute to the influence and situation. There are examples of rape, sexual abuse and luck of the hon. Gentleman in managing to persuade physical abuse through punishment and assaults, and the Speaker’s Office to pull his name out of the hat for those are a minority. However, the visas prevent those this debate. I pay tribute to his skill in ensuring that it people from moving employment, as there is a bar on has taken place. moving. The result is that the only way they can escape We are talking about hundreds of workers who have is to be deported, because once they escape they have no a diplomatic domestic visa, but not thousands. Indeed, status in this country and must be deported. That is the it could be dozens a year, rather than hundreds, but pattern, so they are between a rock and a hard place. every one is significant and important. Their lives are ruined as a result of what is happening to them. Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): When I visited Kalayaan some months ago, I met a The hon. Gentleman is coming to an important point girl who was so desperate because of her lifestyle that about people who are in an invidious position, sometimes she escaped from the diplomat’s house and went along in very difficult circumstances. They have been abused bus queues in the street asking for money for food. She 261WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 262WH

[Mr. Steen] Mr. Steen: That is right, of course, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am trying to find was sleeping rough because she did not know what to a solution for the victim, who is here in Britain, being do. We cannot have that happening in London or in abused by a diplomat with diplomatic privilege, and Britain. Just a stroke of the Minister’s pen could change who is linked to the diplomat. Although one could say, the situation. All we need to do is ensure that the “Send the diplomat back”, there is a difficulty with diplomatic visa allows the domestic to move from an evidence. One of the problems is that victims of human employer. That is all it would take, but they are barred trafficking and abuse will not give evidence, for from moving from their employer. understandable reasons. They are terrified that their family back home will be abused, but I shall not go Mr. Cash: Is there perhaps another remedy? Diplomats down that line. found to be engaged in activities against the state— infringing our national security, for example—can be The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil requested, in effect told, to get out. If there is clear Woolas): May I just inform the debate that in a significant evidence of abuse by individual diplomats, they should number of circumstances, domestic staff in missions are be sanctioned in the same way as other diplomats are not necessarily nationals of the countries for which they sanctioned when they infringe our standards. We know work? Therefore, their status in that country may be that it is not all diplomats, all embassies or all middle jeopardised as well. For example, if a Filipino person east personnel who are involved, but simply a coterie of working in a middle east country transferred to the UK, people who are thoroughly evil. their status and livelihood in the country of the mission must also be considered. I do not know whether the Mr. Steen: That is a perfectly good idea, but where hon. Gentleman agrees with that point. does it leave the domestic? Do they go back with the shamed diplomat? Mr. Steen: This is developing into a most interesting discussion, and all the points are valid. I am grateful to Mr. Cash: It was the diplomat I was intending to the Minister for his intervention and for his interest in deport, not the domestic servant. and concern for the subject. No one has any doubt about that. We need to find a solution, but that is not Mr. Steen: But the problem is that the domestic is being dealt with. linked to the diplomat’s visa, so if the diplomat is sent home, so is the domestic. As the Minister knows, I went to see him in November with part of my all-party group on trafficking of women Mr. Cash: At the risk of engaging in a full debate on and children. I was with the distinguished hon. Member the issue, I believe that it is possible in such circumstances, for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), the right for the sake of protecting the individual concerned, to hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short), deal with the problem. We find this so often in other who is a vice-chairman of the group, and my hon. areas of the law. My hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone), Ashford (Damian Green) knows only too well that one who is a treasurer of the group. I had support from the can give protection to a person through asylum or other House from none other than Baroness Nicholson something of that kind. It is clear that this problem has of Winterbourne, who is another treasurer, and Baroness to be dealt with, and it is equally clear that there are Butler-Sloss. All of us were saying, “Do something.” remedies. It is the diplomat who is at fault, not the I know that the Minister has been working hard on person who is the victim. the problem, but he has failed, because, as of today, a solution has not been found. There are various solutions, Mr. Steen: The problem with what my hon. Friend but there is simple one to start with. We will not be able suggests is that it will bring into the equation all the to change all embassy staff, and we cannot start sending paraphernalia of refugee status and asylum seeking—all all or even some of them back because we do not like that contraption. I know that my hon. Friend, who is a them, but we can ensure that all diplomatic domestic lawyer, likes to make things complicated, but this is a visas are domestic visas. simple problem. If we simply move diplomatic domestic I do not know whether the Minister can tell us how visas into the ordinary domestic visa group, we will not many diplomatic domestic visas are issued every year, have the problem of the domestic being forced to stay but I believe that it is in the hundreds. The total number with a diplomat who treats them badly. of domestic visas is in the thousands, so it would not be It could be argued that we would be bringing in more increased very much. In any case, the number has gone domestics through the diplomatic channel who would down by 4,000 in the past few years, so it would not be then move to the domestic market to get away from the knocked back to what it was. diplomat, but we are talking about tiny numbers. We are not talking about an increasing number: I believe Every civilised western European country has domestic that it was 18,600 in 2006 but is now down to about visas, and there is no problem with them. We have a 14,000. problem because we have a particular group of visas that locks the domestic into the life and future of a Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Surely particular diplomat—not even the embassy. Perhaps what the hon. Gentleman suggests would deal with the the Minister could think of a way round that gives the symptom rather than the problem. The problem is the diplomatic visa to the embassy, not to the individual. diplomat. We must deal with the problem while giving All I am saying is that the problem needs to be protection to those who suffer because of the actions of addressed. My solution is simple, it will not cost anything the diplomat. and it will not give anyone any other rights. All it will 263WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 264WH mean is that the diplomatic domestic visa, which in the Office or anybody else. He must take the problem by the past has prevented people from moving from their short and curlies and solve it. employment, would allow them to do so if they needed I am most grateful to you, Mr. Benton, for your to. They would report to the police every year, just like chairmanship this morning. everyone else. That is all that needs to be done. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Reading, West. 10.21 am He has the problem by the short and curlies. He will pursue it vigorously, as I shall. Kalayaan has been at the John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I, too, receiving end. It says, “What can we do? We are dealing congratulate the hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin with victims. What can we do about them?” It can give Salter) on securing this Adjournment debate. It is clear them love, sympathy and support, and there can be that slavery has been banned in this country for some tribunal hearings, but that does not solve the problem. time. Whether there is a claim under the European Instead, it allows the equipment and machinery that convention on human rights for anyone who has a were there in the first place to remain. diplomatic domestic migrant worker visa is an interesting Forgive me, Mr. Benton, if I do not carry on in my question that Kalayaan may wish to consider. I understand usual lengthy way. However, if my contribution has that people have got ordinary domestic migrant worker been lengthier than usual, it was because of all the visas after having had diplomatic ones—that might be a excellent interventions that I have taken. I hope that the potential route in one or two cases—but the reality is House will forgive me if I now go to see the Albanians. that there is an arrangement that bonds an employee to They have a big problem with human trafficking, although an employer, which creates bonded or indentured labour, they may deny it. It is interesting that the chief of police or slavery; there is no question about that. in Albania says that the number of people who are The test of whether somebody is in that position is trafficked is going down. It is not—they are just not whether they can run away. If they cannot run away finding them. That is the other side of the story. without suffering serious sanctions, there is a problem. Changing a diplomatic visa to a non-diplomatic visa would not necessarily extend the visa or increase the Mr. Cash: I am on the European Scrutiny Committee person’s other rights—it just gives them a chance to run with my hon. Friend, and have been for many years. He, away from slavery. too, is leaving Parliament, and I would like to place on the record the fact that his work in this field has been I congratulate Kalayaan on its work. In 2008, outstanding. Whatever criticisms have been made of 27 diplomatic domestic workers were registered at Kalayaan, him, they pale into insignificance compared with the and in 2009 there were 24. That is a high proportion of fantastic work that he has done on human trafficking. I the 200 diplomatic domestic worker visas that are issued have seen him furthering his cause while we have been in per year; 253 were issued in 2007 and 189 were issued in other European countries for European Scrutiny Committee 2008. If the arrangement is changed, the behaviour of meetings. It has been a great pleasure and privilege to employers will be modified, because the employer-employee work with him in these matters. relationship will be changed, and the employees will know that there is a mechanism by which they can establish their rights. Mr. Steen: I was just about to sit down, but I am glad I did not, because my hon. Friend’s response was kind and quite unprompted. I am moved by what he says and Martin Salter: The hon. Gentleman highlights the I am grateful to him for saying it. statistics eloquently. About 200 to 300 visas are issued, and about 10 per cent. of people with those visas find their way to Kalayaan. We hon. Members know, from Martin Salter: I have given a full and deserved tribute our casework, that only a tiny proportion of people to the hon. Member for Totnes for the excellent work he who suffer from an injustice take action to try to has done on this issue. I shall give him some comfort as remedy it. The problem could be considerably more well. Although I shall be leaving this place shortly, I widespread than the raw statistics suggest. Does he not shall remain a member of my trade union. I am going agree? abroad for a few months, but I pledge to work with him, Unite and Kalayaan on taking the issue forward when I John Hemming: That is true, and I thank the hon. return to the UK. Gentleman for his intervention. People will be here for more than one year at a time, so there are perhaps 500 Mr. Steen: May I thank the hon. Gentleman for his such people here at any time. We are talking about a offer? I am most touched. high percentage of people being willing to take the risk The problem can be dealt with. It is a problem that of a sanction against them—that is the critical thing. we do not see because it is all underground. There are more people today in domestic and human slavery than Martin Salter: And their families. there ever were in the 350 years of the African slave trade. That is the scale of it. However, it is not seen John Hemming: And their families. Those people are because it is all submerged, whereas the African slave willing to, and do, take the risk of a sanction against trade could be seen: it was a visible thing. We are them. We have quoted the figures of 16,000 and 14,000 talking about domestic slavery—it is actually slavery— ordinary domestic worker visas, and the numbers registered although Wilberforce and this place were supposed to with Kalayaan for 2008 and 2009 respectively were 369 have abolished it. The Minister, whom we hold in great and 354. Although there are a lot more ordinary domestic affection, must not be allowed to drag his feet. We must workers, the relevant proportion is lower, which shows deal with this matter. He cannot blame the Foreign that the nature of the arrangement is different. 265WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 266WH

[John Hemming] 10.28 am Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): May I, too, congratulate There are other issues for the Government to consider; the hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) on for example, what are the Government doing about the securing this debate and on raising this topic, not least national minimum wage in respect of migrant domestic because although we are talking about one small corner workers generally? The Select Committee on Home of the wider area of trafficking and modern-day slavery, Affairs understands that the UK Border Agency is it is, as other hon. Members have said, often hidden and issuing visas even though it knows that the minimum paid insufficient attention? wage will not be payable. That sounds unacceptable. What are the Government doing to ensure that access is The Minister and I are both veterans of various made available to the limited number of English language debates in this place on human trafficking. I frequently courses? Will the Government give us any estimates or observe that the debate is in danger of sliding into one figures on the extent to which people are trafficked into about prostitution and sexual slavery, which is clearly a domestic labour? That argument takes us on to the hugely serious issue facing us, but not the whole story. points-based system. There is a real challenge in how This is another part of the story. Those of us who have the matter is handled, because we do not want to create been talking about trafficking and modern-day slavery a bond between employer and employee that prevents for many years are always grateful for the opportunity people from running away. to expose other parts of the wider issue. What steps are the Government taking to deal with In his absence, I should like to pay tribute yet again to fact that, outside the Gangmasters Licensing Authority the work that my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes sector, enforcement of employment law is at times non- (Mr. Steen) does on the all-party group on the trafficking existent—an issue that was raised in the Home Affairs of women and children. That is a model of how to use Committee report? There is a difficulty with international an all-party group. Those bodies are often rightly excoriated law and diplomats—there is no question about that—but for not contributing much to the enlightenment of we come back to the fundamental point, which is the humanity, but my hon. Friend’s group has not only ability to run away. If people are not able to run away, exposed problems, but has shifted public policy, and their rights cannot be enforced. Given that only one can pay no higher tribute. I sometimes think I have 114 employers have been prosecuted for employing been paying tribute to him for so long in these debates illegal workers since 1997, can the Government tell us that even when he has gone I will continue to do so from how many people, if any, have been prosecuted for force of habit. offences relating to the ill-treatment of a migrant domestic We often discuss trafficking for sexual exploitation, worker? and that is important, but it is important to consider What steps are the Government taking to ensure that whether the same solution could apply to the problems where offences are suspected to have been committed, in both the diplomatic and non-diplomatic spheres—an legal advice and support is given to the victims to aid issue that has been raised significantly during the debate. prosecution, and to those who wish to bring employment There is a huge overlap, but there are clearly different tribunals against their employers? There is a problem solutions. My first thought on listening to the debate with employment law when it comes to diplomatic was about something that we could do across the board missions, but there is also the question of whether we about domestic exploitation of migrant domestic workers. should be negotiating with foreign Governments, so This country may have been insufficiently clear in sending that there is a sanction, not against the employer, but out a message to those who want to come here from the the state as a whole. rest of the world, whether to do a normal job or as diplomats, that it is entirely and completely unacceptable The Home Affairs Committee found that to treat domestic staff in the way illustrated in the “police do not always understand” examples produced by the hon. Member for Reading, the “special status” of migrant domestic workers, and West. I agree with him that the issue is not what is that appropriate behaviour for a diplomat—or for anyone— “the immigration authorities frequently fail to follow the correct elsewhere in the world, but how people behave in this procedures for issuing visas…that would help to identify abuse.” country. What steps have the Government taken since the publication We all—the Minister representing the Government of that Committee’s report to raise awareness of those and all of us as parliamentarians—have a right to say problems with the relevant authorities? The Committee that we in this country represent certain values, including states that the current rules, which are part of a two-year decent behaviour, and abusing domestic staff in the way extension, will need to be in place for far longer than that Kalayaan exposed is unacceptable. I echo the tributes two years to ensure protection from exploitation for paid by many hon. Members on both sides of the those people, as various hon. Members have said. What House to its work. We can all do something to make it is the Government’s reaction to that? clear that people must assume British behaviour if they This is a difficult area, but there is a basic, simple come here to live and work, whether as diplomats, principle: we oppose slavery. Indentured labour is slavery. lawyers or anything else. To avoid slavery, people have to be able to run away without suffering. There will always be an element of Martin Salter: I did not hold back in my criticism of suffering, because people will not have a new employer abuse by diplomats, but the nub of the problem that led straight away, but they should not have to jump off a to the Government introducing the migrant domestic cliff to run away: that is not acceptable. There has to be worker visa—we have illustrated that it is working well—was a mechanism for people to leave an abusive employment that it affected not just foreign nationals; plenty of relationship—to run away from slavery—and not be British expats were happy to behave as feudal barons in punished. their own homes, and they were part of the initial 267WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 268WH problem that was identified and that led to the visa. a wrong that affects 10 per cent. of people, the fact that Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should be we do not know whether it might affect 15, 20 or 25 per tough on the diplomats, but should remember that cent. is an excuse for doing nothing. Let me press the some of our own have fallen short of the standards that hon. Gentleman, as I pressed the Minister: would a we in Britain expect? future Conservative Government extend the migrant domestic worker visa to diplomatic domestic workers—yes Damian Green: I will make a point about the rule of or no? law applying to everyone, which has been brought home to me by the force of this debate. Damian Green: I will come to that. The hon. Gentleman said that he was trying to tie down the present and We know that in the UK, exploitation of labour is future Governments, but it is sensible that the current common in certain spheres—agriculture, construction, Minister—and any future Minister, whether that is me contract cleaning, the care sector and, indeed, the domestic or someone else—should proceed on the basis of hard sector. There have been many tragic examples in addition evidence. Different solutions may be necessary, depending to the terrible and chilling ones that we have heard this on the scale of the problem. It has struck me during the morning, such as the Chinese cockle pickers at Morecambe debate that people are saying that there is a solution. I bay and the lorry full of Chinese workers at Folkestone. suspect that there are two or three solutions. We all We must become more effective across the board at want to clear the problem up, and any sensible Government combating that. that want to eradicate it may have to take several Reference has frequently been made during the debate different steps, which will have to be based on evidence to the fact that the Government gave themselves two of the scale of the problem. years after introduction of the points-based system to The hon. Gentleman is saying that one instance is examine the matter to see what was happening, and I one too many, and that the Government must do something understand that they are gathering facts and research. I about the problem. That is true, but he has been in the hope that the Minister will give us an update on what House long enough to know that such reasoning is evidence he has gathered. In terms of whether the often not the basis for the best and most effective policy current visa system could be integrated into the points-based making. I want to ensure that we eradicate abuse, and to system, I am not entirely sure how widespread the do so effectively we need better evidence than we have at evidence will be because, with the rest of tier 3 at zero, the moment. That is why I hope that the Minister can there will be no obvious comparators. However, I assume produce that evidence. that the Government have collected hard evidence on the incidence and possible patterns of abuse, and how John Hemming: Is there not clear evidence of bonded, best it can be prevented. I look forward to hearing that. indentured employment? That is the challenge that must The debate has brought home the importance of be resolved. hard evidence. I know how difficult it is to get it when Damian Green: That is certainly one of the challenges many of those who are most capable of giving evidence that must be resolved, but there are others, including are prevented from doing so by understandable fears. the potential for things to fall out of the part of the The exchange between the hon. Member for Birmingham, system that we are talking about; that could lead to Yardley (John Hemming), and the hon. Member for routes to settlement that the Government are very concerned Reading, West, was instructive because the debate proceeded about, and I have a lot of sympathy for them on that. on the assumption that what we are seeing, particularly There are a number of complex issues, and I repeat that in the diplomatic area, is the tip of the iceberg. The hon. we need to find solutions based on evidence. Member for Birmingham, Yardley, rightly said that we The Home Affairs Committee has recommended that all assume from other cases of exploitation and abuse we keep what is essentially a special visa regime for the that we hear about in our surgeries that there are many type of worker that we are discussing. That recommendation more people out there in that situation than approach was treated with great reluctance by the Home Office their MP or a pressure group about it, but we do not when it introduced the points-based system. I appreciate know that. As has been said, the numbers are very the desire of any bureaucracy for a tidy system. God small. A few hundred visas are issued every year and a knows the immigration system is complex enough, and few dozen people approach their MP or a pressure was complex enough before the introduction of the group every year. To proceed in such circumstance with points-based system, so I can appreciate why those the assumption that we are seeing the tip of the iceberg involved in running it wish to simplify it as much as and not the iceberg itself might be wrong. I am not possible and not to create special exemptions. saying that it is wrong, but we do not know, and we should accept that we do not know. Trying to make Mr. Woolas: Hear, hear. policy on the assumption that we are seeing the tip of a large iceberg is dangerous. Damian Green: I am glad to have the support of the I hope that the Minister will tell us that his Department Minister on that, but he will be well aware that purity in has obtained evidence of absolute numbers, and of the pursuit of that aim is not possible and not practical. We percentage of domestic workers who are brought here have exceptions in corners of the system. We have, for and then abused—a percentage on which the Department instance, a seasonal agricultural workers scheme. In can reliably base future policy. certain areas, it is sensible— Mr. Woolas: Gurkhas. Martin Salter: I hesitate to criticise a fellow Reading football club fan, and I know that the hon. Gentleman Damian Green: The Minister surprisingly mentions is supportive of the issue, but there is a certain strangeness Gurkhas from a sedentary position. If I were him, I in the argument that although it might be okay to right would not bring that subject up, but he has done. 269WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 270WH

[Damian Green] new way of stopping people committing that criminal offence, seems to me a counsel of despair. I know that it The very serious area that we are discussing is possibly is difficult for the police to collect evidence, but there an area for exemption. I can give the hon. Member for are other areas of life where that is so. The hon. Member Reading, West, some comfort, in that it has occurred to for Birmingham, Yardley, made the point about the me that although it may not be ideal to have a special paucity of prosecutions for exploitation more widely. It visa regime in this area, that may be the least worst would be interesting to know whether any prosecutions option. It may contribute to greater complexity in the have taken place in the area that we are discussing. system, but it may be a possibility. I have a final detailed point. The issue must come under the Government’s general anti-trafficking strategy. Dr. McCrea: To return to the diplomatic issue, a One of the things that most worries me is that the worker should be given the right to run away from Metropolitan police’s anti-trafficking unit has been absorbed abuse, but that does not deal with the problem; the into the clubs and vice unit. That sends a clear signal abuser is the person who must be looked at. I put it to that that force is now looking at human trafficking the hon. Gentleman that if one worker runs away, purely as a sexual exploitation issue; the type of exploitation another is likely to come and fill their place, so that that we are discussing is therefore likely to fall below the abuse and exploitation will continue. Surely the solution radar. is twofold: there must be protection of the worker, but there must also be prosecution of the offender. One conclusion that I reach is that our current anti- trafficking measures are not adequate, particularly in Damian Green: I take that point. To move directly on the area that we are discussing. That is one reason why a to the point about diplomats, I share some of the Conservative Government would introduce a specialist impatience of the hon. Member for Reading, West, with border police force. My second conclusion is that we diplomatic niceties in this area. Everyone in the debate, should not give up on normal legal procedures and on including him, was carefully tiptoeing around, not naming naming and shaming embassies if necessary. My third embassies or countries. conclusion—I know that this will disappoint the hon. Member for Reading, West—is that the long-term solution Martin Salter rose— depends on harder evidence than we have before us Damian Green: Oh, the hon. Gentleman is happy to today, unless the Minister is about to produce some. do so, is he? Individual cases are clearly hugely distressing and shameful, even if there is not a huge number of them. The Martin Salter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving long-term solution must depend on that evidence, but I way. I was disappointed by his weasel words when he can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House more did not give a clear commitment on what he would do if widely that if there is a Conservative Government after he were fortunate enough to be the Minister, but on the next election, we will regard the eradication of reflection, it is probably incumbent on me to say that it modern-day slavery in this country as a very serious and was at the residence of the Pakistan high commissioner important part of our work. of several years ago that I witnessed what I described. I hope that the situation has now been remedied. 10.46 am The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil Damian Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Woolas): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship for saying that, although I suspect that his colleagues in this important debate, Mr. Benton. The traditional may not be. It is interesting to observe that, on the congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for whole, we have avoided naming and shaming, whereas Reading, West (Martin Salter) on securing the debate in other areas we do not avoid that. I have seen lists of would clearly be inadequate today. I suspect that this parking fines for which various embassies in London will be his last Adjournment debate, so it is right and are responsible. That information is in the public domain, timely to pay tribute to him, as I did on the day that he and it is presumably put there by arms of the British announced his retirement from Parliament. His work as Government. Parking illegally is irritating, but it is a Member of Parliament has been incredible. I am much less serious than the issues that we are discussing thinking of the successes he has had from the positions today. The Government could consider that. he has held on the Home Affairs Committee and the That answers part of the point made by the hon. all-party group on Gurkha Rights, where he played an Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea). If it is known incredibly helpful role. His membership of Amnesty on the diplomatic circuit around the world that if people International has guided his work. I checked before the come to this country and behave in the ways described, debate and my hon. Friend’s declarations of political they will at the very least be removed from their country’s interest included India and Pakistan, so I have narrowed embassy or high commission in this country and sent it down, but it was useful that he clarified the matter, back to their own country, presumably in some kind of especially as next week is Pakistan day. disgrace, that will act as a huge and effective deterrent. I have a detailed prepared speech, but I think that Indeed, it might quite quickly wipe out that type of hon. Members want me to answer two questions: one behaviour. That would do a huge amount of good for on domestic workers and one on domestic workers in what may be dozens or hundreds of people—we do not diplomatic households. The hon. Member for Totnes know. (Mr. Steen) has had to leave us, but I undertook to We should not give up on the criminal law and the provide answers to his questions. The hon. Member for criminal justice system. Everyone who is doing what has Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) had a detailed been described is committing a criminal offence in this list of questions that I might not cover now, but if he country. To say that for various reasons it is difficult to remains unsatisfied on those questions, I will of course collect evidence, and that we therefore have to find a write to him with the information. 271WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas)17 MARCH 2010 Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 272WH

Let me clarify something. On the route for domestic Mr. Woolas: Yes. To repeat, the difficulty, as the hon. workers that we have discussed with Unite and Kalayaan, Member for Birmingham, Yardley and others have which are represented in the Chamber today, the said, is that although the Government are aware of a commitment was to look at the system within two years number of cases, there are strong reasons why cases of the introduction of that aspect of the rules. That will would not come forward. Therefore, one cannot look take us to November 2010, which is slightly before the just at the transparent evidence available to the Government. date that hon. Members were looking at. Let me make it It is really a question of reviewing how the protection is clear that the Government’s policy objective is to review working, not whether it should be there. I do not rule how the system is working. We have been given some out another way of providing protection—it would be figures today, and hon. Members will remember that foolish to do that—but there is no intention on the part the original fear was that there would be a pull factor of the Government to remove that protection. Indeed, and that the ability to transfer the visa might encourage the conversations that we have had with Kalayaan and people to use that route. hon. Members have been aimed at improving the system The hon. Member for Ashford made a valid point as best we can. about evidence, because there are two other criteria that The hon. Member for Ashford made a very wise one would need to look at. One is the effect on settlement point—he has obviously started to think about policy applications and the desire in the Borders, Citizenship in detail. It is true that the great advantage of the and Immigration Act 2009 to separate residency from points-based system is its simplicity. It is also true that automaticity of settlement rights. At the moment, people although relatively small numbers take the diplomatic in the category we are discussing have rights to apply, route—the numbers for entry and potential settlement but one needs to look at the effect of any proposals. via the domestic servant route are actually significant—that The hard information that my hon. Friend has given is the third such exception that I have dealt with today. us shows, however, that the numbers using the domestic There are many such cases of special interests—I will worker route are actually going down. There may be not say special pleading, because this cause is clearly wider factors at play, including economic factors, valid. That, however, is the Government’s policy on the although I have seen no evidence of that. Of course, first question. that analysis assumes a rather little Englander view of On the second question, I cannot give the positive the economic recession, because we remain a relatively answer today that I had wanted to give. The timing of wealthy country. the debate is fortunate from the point of view of raising the issue, but it is unfortunate from my point of view Martin Salter: Let me just put on record the fact that because the Government’s deliberations have not been the decline in the numbers applying for migrant domestic concluded. Those are not, I hope, weasel words. Let me worker visas covered 2005, 2006 and 2007, when the give some of the background. economy was in much healthier shape than it is now. I was asked about the figures. Complaints from Irrespective of the economic circumstances, the general diplomatic domestic servants are forwarded to the Foreign trend is down. and Commonwealth Office, which is aware of two cases involving allegations of abuse in the past 12 months. To Mr. Woolas: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I emphasise the point, those are just the cases that the will not repeat the figures, but what he says continues to Foreign Office has been made aware of. As the hon. be the case. Of course, there may be consequential Member for Birmingham, Yardley said, if someone changes in other areas of the immigration system, and cannot run away, they cannot be protected, and I think the points-based system may have opened up other there is consensus in the House on that. I am not routes, although I have seen no evidence of that, particularly suggesting that there are only two cases of abuse; those given that tier 3 is closed. Interestingly, the passenger two cases are the ones we are aware of. arrivals data on the nationalities of domestic workers It would be illuminating for hon. Members if I explained show that 36 per cent. of those in the category we are how the cases proceeded. Both complaints were referred discussing are Filipino, 20 per cent. are Indian and to the FCO by the police. The first is the subject of a 12 per cent. are Indonesian; their countries are the top police investigation and a request for the waiver of three countries of origin, and they would not be covered criminal immunity to allow the diplomat to give evidence by tiers 1 and 2 or, indeed, aspects of tier 5. to rebut the allegations or to help to confirm to the To answer the question, my commitment is that the police that there is a case to answer. In the second case, Government will review how the system is working. We the police decided that no criminal offence had been will not change our policy of providing protection to committed. As has been suggested, therefore, there is domestic workers. I would not wish to rule out the the possibility, at the end of the road, that the diplomatic possibility that there may be a better way of providing position would be withdrawn. As the hon. Member for protection, but there is no intention on the part of the Ashford rightly said, there is also the criminal justice Government to get rid of that protection. There is the route. caveat that one would need to look at the evidence, The question is whether the ability to transfer the visa although that evidence would relate to how the system to another employer would provide better protection is working, not to whether it should be there. for people we are not aware of because they have not come forward with complaints. We are undertaking Martin Salter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for investigations, but the issue is complicated because of that. I think that what he has said is progress. To be our relationship with the diplomatic service and our clear, the Government are saying that the protection reciprocal diplomatic arrangements. However, there is will continue beyond 2011, in its current form or a new, no question that we are putting those diplomatic relations improved form. above the interests of victims. 273WH Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) 17 MARCH 2010 274WH

[Mr. Woolas] Port Business Rates I can confirm that the Vienna convention does not 10.59 am preclude us from allowing a private servant to switch employment to outside the mission. The issue is the Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): It is a convention’s definition of interfering delight to speak under your chairmanship, Mr. Benton. “unduly with the performance of the functions of the mission.” I am grateful for the opportunity to have this short We have to be on strong ground on that point. debate on port business rates, but appalled by the fact that it is still necessary to do so. To outline the position Of course, I understand the point that we should not quickly, Parliament decided in 2003 that all companies put the protection of diplomatic relations above the operating at our ports would pay business rates in the interests of victims of violent, physical or, indeed, verbal same way as other businesses. Previously, some of them abuse. We are working to solve the problem. Our policy had paid an unspecified amount, in lieu of rates, in the is to look at the suggested solution of switching visas. fees to their landlords, such as Associated British Ports As I said, the timing of the debate is fortunate in terms in Goole. That change was to begin in 2005. That in of raising the issue, but it is unfortunate for me in that I itself was not particularly controversial, and as I have have not yet concluded my deliberations. However, my often said, none of the affected companies that I have experience based on eight years as a Minister is that it is spoken to have ever said that they are not willing to pay better to get things right than to respond to an Adjournment their taxes in the same way as others. However, none of debate or a question in the House just because it might them, and I would guess none of us, foresaw what was make my life easier now. to come. The Valuation Office Agency failed to assess the companies before 2005, and by the time that the liabilities were beginning to appear, it was 2008 and not only were rate bills due but there was backdating to 2005. During that period, of course, the companies had continued to pay, via their fees to their landlords, and it is accepted by all that there is no legal recourse for the recovery of that money. Indeed, Associated British Ports made it clear in a meeting with me that it had no intention of making any repayments, as its own overall liability had been increased, even if that was not true specifically at Goole. Companies had to pay rates for a second time for years for which the accounts had been signed off, and there was a new liability to be paid as well. In addition, there was huge concern that the rateable values were wrong and the figures were much too high. That was raised with the Government at the time by several hon. Members who represent ports. I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) is present for the debate, along with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis)— whom I regard as a friend on these occasions and who continues to share an interest in this matter and, indeed, in the port of Goole, which borders his constituency. Many of us made the point at that time that we were deeply concerned about where the situation was heading. The Government offered some assistance. Their response was to announce that the historic debt could be paid, interest-free, over an eight-year period and that there would be a fast-track appeal process, through the Valuation Office Agency, when there was doubt whether the rateable value was correct. There is much more I could say about that, but this is a relatively short debate. I want only to say that that offer was not as helpful as it sounds.

David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I do not want to delay the hon. Gentleman, who has fought very hard on the issue, but may I ask whether he agrees that the Select Committee on the Treasury was right in its comment on the Government’s response? It said: “We are not impressed by the Government’s decision to wash its hands of problems which arise, in part, from its own insensitive handling of port rate revaluation. We recommend that the Government urgently reviews the impact of the revaluation on port occupiers, and publishes its findings.” 275WH Port Business Rates17 MARCH 2010 Port Business Rates 276WH

Mr. Cawsey: I agree entirely with the Select Committee. reassessment was forthcoming. Eventually, the council One of the heartening things about the campaign is the issued a summons. The company went into liquidation fact that it has attracted support from all the main on 25 February, and 10 people lost their jobs. political parties and that cross-party groups, such as the If the story ended there, that would be bad enough. Select Committee, have been firm in advocating that the However, in this world of “You couldn’t make it up”, Government should do more. The fast-track appeal is what happened next is almost more unbelievable. Last one relevant instance. In a famous episode of “Yes week, the company received a letter saying that the Minister”, Sir Humphrey was trying to explain to the fast-track reassessment was complete and its liability Minister that things should always be given a title that was not £700,000 but £114,500. That fast-track reassessment was the exact opposite of what was going to happen; so took 14 months and arrived days after the company if something was intended to suppress information, it folded. should be called “Freedom of Information”. I can only think that that logic was applied to the fast-track appeal. Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I congratulate “Fast” is not the word that springs to mind to describe my hon. Friend on securing the debate, which I think is what some of my local companies have gone through. the second that we have had in Westminster Hall on this That case has been made over and again; fast-tracking subject. Given what he has just revealed about what has not happened. Scotline’s liability should have been, does he think that The eight-year spread does not take away the fact there is a case for investigating the Valuation Office that the debt is held on the books, leaving some companies Agency? at least technically insolvent. I realise that Her Majesty’s Mr. Cawsey: The Treasury Committee made the point Revenue and Customs has said that it is content if well that the Valuation Office Agency, which is a companies can show that they can pay over the period Government agency, has let down the ports and the in question, whatever the technical status of their books; companies badly. Even at this late stage, it has a duty to but companies still need access to finance to be able to ensure that everyone is asked to pay on the basis of a operate, and we are already in a world where that is fair rateable value that is comparable to others. It more difficult. Technical insolvency is not a status that should be borne in mind that some companies in the helps. It makes things very difficult. ports have always paid business rates in the normal way, This is in one respect nothing to do with the situation and it is important that all the companies should have a in question, but it shows how difficult things have been level playing field. My experience is that a number of for local companies. There is a system of transitional companies have been given rateable values that are relief to help in dealing with sudden changes in rates completely out of kilter with the businesses that they liabilities. To put that into context for Goole, companies run and the properties that they use. Paying is putting tell me that under the old system the rateable value of them into immediate difficulties, but they face the further Goole docks was £298,000. According to the Valuation long-term unfairness of continuing to be unfairly rated Office Agency, the valuation was set at £3.1 million in compared with some of their competitors. 2008, yet because of the arbitrary high values attached Scotline’s chief executive, Peter Millat, said in a press to the individual companies in the 2005 rating list, there statement issued after the company went into liquidation was in effect no transitional relief. that if the revaluation had been more timely the company All that has been put to Ministers privately and on would not have folded and no jobs would have been the record, and as the right hon. Member for Haltemprice lost. It is truly unbelievable that the agency should have and Howden has said, the Treasury Committee added taken so long when so much was at stake and that, its weight to the concerns that I and other right hon. despite many warnings about the declining position, the and hon. Members have raised. We continue to be told Government should have allowed it to happen on their that, on top of the measures already taken by the watch. The problem affects not only Scotline; other Government, colleagues in the Government continue to companies are hanging on, waiting for something to monitor the position and to discuss what more can be happen or for sensible revaluations to reduce their done. However, in the absence of further action, the liabilities. clock continues to move on. Councils are required to I spoke earlier about East Riding of Yorkshire council, collect the business rates. Indeed, the financial consequences but I am aware also of the efforts that have been made for council taxpayers if they do not do so are onerous. by Hull city council and North East Lincolnshire council, The figures are quite large, certainly in the case of East which cover all the Humber ports—although I realise Riding of Yorkshire council, so with some reluctance that the problem affects not only them. They have held councils have begun the process of making collections. off as long as possible and have tried to do the best that The result in my constituency is that Scotline has they can to support the industries in their areas, but ceased to trade—I fear that this may just be the first they, too, are now under pressure. To put this into such case—because it was presented with a bill of just context, we should consider how much it is costing the over £700,000 for current and backdated rates, with UK economy. I was grateful to receive a briefing before £200,000 owed now. The company has a turnover of the debate from the Federation of Small Businesses. It just £800,000. Of course it has known about the situation, estimates that those companies are being chased for and in January 2009—not January 2010—it took its more than £33 million and that 150,000 jobs in UK case to the Valuation Office Agency, requesting the ports are in jeopardy as a result. fast-track appeal that the Government had offered. To I turn to what we might hope and expect my hon. back up its case, it pointed out that it had been charged Friend the Minister to do. In some respects, I feel sorry for a large warehouse that it did not own and for a for her, as it all happened before she took over her common wharf to which it merely had access, as do present brief. However, as a colleague once said to me, many other companies on the port. Despite its pleas no “That’s why you get a car.”She comes from the Department 277WH Port Business Rates17 MARCH 2010 Port Business Rates 278WH

[Mr. Cawsey] paying what they considered to be their business rates to the port authority, but that some were not. The result for Communities and Local Government, which has was a loss not only to the Treasury but to the other offered the limited assistance that we have so far secured. businesses that had to make up the shortfall, because I guess that she shares my despair at the way the agency not all the business rates liability was being collected. has acted and how the promise of a fast-track procedure It became obvious in 2006 that the problem existed in simply raises a laugh whenever it is mentioned locally. the country’s 55 ports. The Government undertook a I have had private and public meetings about this, but review. The delay that my hon. Friend mentioned was we should be candid about it: DCLG would like to do not only caused by the fact that the mills of government more but cannot persuade the Treasury. I mean no grind exceeding slow, as he will know from watching offence to my hon. Friend the Minister, but I took the “Yes, Minister”. The review started in 2006 and took matter up directly with the Chancellor last week. I approximately two years, ending in 2008. The result explained to him the difficulties that we were having was that ratepayers in 725 properties became liable for and my belief—I do not think that I am wrong—that backdated bills. that is where the block is to be found. It is fair to say Backdated bills are a feature of the business rate that my right hon. Friend was unaware of the reality of system, which is 100 years old. Every year, individual what had happened to Scotline, and especially about companies are found, for one reason or another, not to the cut in liability made after it went out of business. He have paid all their liability, and they have to pay back offered to speak to his officials, and I sincerely hope that money. This is the first time that we have had a that that will enable the Government to move matters sector-specific review, and it obviously led to a great forward. Too many jobs are at risk to do nothing. deal of hardship. I very much regret what has happened My personal view is that retrospective rates should be to Scotline in my hon. Friend’s constituency. This is not cancelled; as companies cannot get their money back a time to lose jobs, and I regret what has occurred. from their landlords, they will be paying twice. The One reason why the problem arose is that the system agency should be made to finish all revaluations as an is so ancient. There is no requirement for potential immediate priority, and councils should impose no financial ratepayers or the port authorities to inform the Valuation penalties in respect of non-collection during this period, Office Agency that a separate hereditament may exist—I which should have a short but fixed time scale. If may have mispronounced that word, Mr. Benton. For companies still have outstanding liabilities, there needs example, if my hon. Friend decided to rent out his office to be a deal to ensure that they cannot be placed in a in Parliament to my hon. Friend the Member for position where they could go out of business through Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac), it would become liable no fault of their own. for business rates—if he were allowed to do so; I am The problem has attracted strong support from all using it as an example. However, there is no obligation parties. I note from today’s Grimsby Telegraph that on either of my hon. Friends to inform the Valuation Lord Bates, Opposition spokesman for the DCLG in Office Agency. It can therefore take quite a long time the other place, has issued a statement saying that the for the agency to find out where those separate heredi— Conservative party is in favour of a moratorium. Although that does not cancel the retrospection, it nevertheless David Davis: Hereditaments. offers a breathing space while rational decisions are made. At the very least, it would be a sensible start. The Barbara Follett: I thank the right hon. Member for Government should respond in a similar way, content Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis)—it can be in the knowledge that other political parties would difficult to find out where they exist. As a result, although support them. The Government need to act as soon as there is no guilty party there is a lack of transparency in possible. The clock is ticking; companies are folding; the system. On top of that, if the Valuation Office jobs are going. The Minister and her colleagues need to Agency discovered that my hon. Friend had rented his deliver. The problem is caused by their actions and their office to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes it agency, and they need to resolve it. would have a legal duty to investigate it and to charge. Some companies continued to pay their fees to landlords, 11.14 pm as my hon. Friend mentioned, and some are finding it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for difficult to get those fees back. The problem for Government Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): is that the matter is not something in which we can It is a pleasure, Mr. Benton, to serve under your interfere; it is between the port authorities and their chairmanship. It is also a pleasure to respond to my businesses. In fact, some companies have had to pay hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) rates twice, which does not seem in the least fair. on a subject that is difficult because of the consequences My Department announced that historical debt could of its complexity. be paid interest-free over an eight-year period, as my I congratulate my hon. Friend on giving such an hon. Friend mentioned, and that there would be a extremely clear outline of what has happened. The fast-track appeal process via the Valuation Office Agency. situation arose from changes of ownership in the ports However, once again, between the Government view about 40 years ago. Previously, the port authorities paid and the business view of what constitutes fast track, the business rates of the businesses that operated within there is a huge gulf— the ports. The situation has changed over the years, and that transition is the crux of the problem. Mr. Cawsey: Fourteen months. It became clear that some properties that should have been separately rated had not been separately rated. It Barbara Follett: Yes, and my hon. Friend illustrated became equally clear that some properties were still that gulf marvellously well. 279WH Port Business Rates17 MARCH 2010 Port Business Rates 280WH

We now have a situation in which a company such as None of what I have said diminishes the impact of Scotline has ceased to trade because of the time taken backdated rates, combined with the current economic by the Valuation Office Agency to arrive at the correct climate, on port-based ratepayers. We understand and liability. I have heard the details of the situation in my sympathise with their plight, which is partly why we hon. Friend’s constituency and I have talked in huge introduced the schedule of payments scheme and went detail about other specialist areas of valuation, such as in for an unprecedented eight years. The scheme is the vexed question of petrol stations. I shall not go into providing help, but there are still instances, as with that in any detail because you might be in danger of Scotline, when that help comes too late or is not sufficient. falling asleep, Mr. Benton. However, the question is The fundamental issue is that we cannot selectively vexed and keeps the owners of petrol stations and this let some businesses off a legally established tax, actively Minister awake at night. Another specialist area is that disadvantaging companies that have paid it. Members of telecoms, with the differential ways in which BT and present understand that, so we have to find a way the fibre-optic providers are measured. That case has through. gone as far as the European courts and the Court of In conclusion, the Government and this Minister are Appeal in this country. as concerned as Members about the impact of backdated I have spoken to Treasury Ministers because, owing rates liability. to the way Government responsibilities are split, the Valuation Office Agency falls under the Treasury, whereas Mr. Cawsey: My hon. Friend is reaching the end of the structure for collection, which is local authorities— her comments. We welcome her sympathy, but it is billing authorities—falls under my Department. I am in important to have something tangible as well. discussion with Treasury Ministers about what we can do to make the fast-track process truly fast track, and What companies need to know at this point in time is the system more responsive to the needs of business. I when the revaluations will be complete. Companies are shall keep my hon. Friend informed of progress. I am trying to make arrangements to keep their businesses taking the issue up as a matter of urgency—I am going while the revaluations happen. Scotline has been speaking to a Treasury Minister tomorrow—because I a shock through the entire system, because the company am aware of the cliff we are all facing. went and then the revaluation came. Every affected business I know fears that for itself. If the Minister can David Davis: Like the hon. Member for Brigg and do no more today—I understand that conversations are Goole (Mr. Cawsey), I am incredibly sympathetic to the still ongoing, not least the ones with the Chancellor that Minister’s position. She is caught in a “Yes, Minister” I alluded to—will she, please, at least give us an assurance time warp, with fast track being measured in geological that she will get back to us with some indication of time— when those decisions will be made and complete, so that Shona McIsaac: That would be quick. the companies will know what their liabilities are and that they are fairly set? David Davis: Indeed. In the middle of all the complexity—the legal history Barbara Follett: My hon. Friend has been a Minister and the antiquity of the system—the simple fact is that himself and understands the constraints under which there are two injustices. One injustice is that the Government we sometimes operate. However, I give the Chamber my make a mistake and individuals or companies pay. The assurance that we shall do everything in my power and other injustice is that we are in effect subjecting our the Secretary of State’s power. I am glad that my hon. corporate citizens and their employees to double taxation. Friend has prayed in aid our right hon. Friend the Both injustices are clear—whatever the reason, whoever Chancellor of the Exchequer, because that will be most the blame lands on, I do not care. I do care that useful. I shall report back to concerned Members about constituents of virtually all the MPs in the Chamber are progress. We intend to move forward as swiftly as suffering. In the current economic circumstance, the possible, because as we all know there is only an extremely only thing that can help is that whatever form such help short period in which to operate. takes, whether moratorium, cancellation or whatever, it has to be incredibly quick—not quick in geological I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Great time, but quick as in the next few weeks. Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), who is in the Chamber today, for the work he has done on the issue. He has certainly Barbara Follett: I take the right hon. Gentleman’s kept my correspondence section extremely busy. point. As someone who came into this place at the ancient age of 54, with a business background, I found the geological time that is occasionally also Government 11.27 am time difficult to deal with. Sitting suspended. 281WH 17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 282WH

London Hospitals Seven draft options affect the Whittington hospital in three different ways. Under scenarios 1, 2 and 3, described disarmingly as the “do minimum”scenario, the Whittington [Mr. George Howarth in the Chair] loses in-patient paediatric services, and possibly obstetrics, 2.30 pm too. Under scenarios 4 and 5, we also lose 24/7 A and E cover, and under scenarios 6 and 7 we lose A and E Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD): altogether. It is a pleasure to stand before you this afternoon, I should like to talk today about the evidence base. Mr. Howarth. I am delighted to have secured this The Minister himself said in debate: important debate on the vital issue of the future of London hospitals. “We need to see strong clinical evidence for any change to the status of the Whittington…unless the case for change is established, London is a world city, but its health care is not world there will be no change…I do not see any justification for closure class. It faces extreme health challenges, with the highest of the A and E at this time”.—[Official Report, 9 March 2010; rates of child poverty, chlamydia, gonorrhoea and syphilis. Vol. 507, c. 171-172.] It has 40 per cent. of the UK’s tuberculosis cases and I was jolly glad to hear that, as were colleagues across 52 per cent. of its HIV cases, the highest number of the House, I am sure. There is no clinical evidence at dependent drug users, and the highest rates of teenage this point in time. Nor is there any evidence that the pregnancies. Sadly, London tops the list in many other 45,000 people who could not be treated at any facility areas as well. other than a proper A and E department could be dealt NHS London has sweeping plans that would with by an alternative hospital. monumentally change the delivery of health care in London. Through the local prism what is happening in Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): my sector—the north central London sector—and The hon. Lady is making a tremendously powerful case specifically around the Whittington hospital, I will about the situation in her area. Is she aware that in demonstrate what is happening across London. The south-east London, a similar situation occurred, and proposals are being fought across the capital by all the consultation there was just a sham? parties. I have no doubt that my hon. Friends and other Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Gentleman for hon. Members will wish to put their local situations on his comments, and yes, I am aware of that, because I the record. attended a debate last week at which I heard hon. Shocking health inequalities exist in London. For Members from across the House say how poor the example, a man will live seven and a half years longer in consultation had been. Kensington than in Haringey. We have six infant deaths per 1,000 live births in Haringey, against a London Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Is the hon. Lady average of 4.8 per cent. We desperately need better aware that even though a consultation is taking place health care to address such inequalities, and we welcome on cutting A and E and other services at King George’s the fact that a review is under way. However, we are hospital, which services my Ilford, North, constituency, worried about the way in which the review is being wards are already being closed? There is allegedly a conducted, the work that is not being done, the use of consultation going on in which people’s views are being wrong and dangerous assumptions, the appalling lack listened to, but those responsible are trying to bring of proper or meaningful consultation with local people, about the closures by stealth before the consultation has the absence of real clinical evidence and the neglect of even finished. key aspects that impact on medical training. Despite such a flawed, unsafe and unsound process, the juggernaut Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Gentleman for proceeds relentlessly. No proper case is being made that his intervention. Some of us think that decisions have demonstrates that our health inequalities in Haringey been made behind closed doors. will be reduced by the proposals of the north central Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I thank the London sector review panel. hon. Lady for giving way and for securing this debate. I, The first news of the potential closure of the Whittington like her, heard the Minister’s reply last week, and we accident and emergency department was revealed in a have had a number of discussions and debates about leaked letter from Rachel Tyndall, who chairs the review the Whittington. Does she not think that it would be in panel. That letter was sent to the chief executive officers everybody’s interest if the plan to downgrade the and the medical directors of all the relevant hospitals in Whittington from a district general hospital with an A the sector. It proposed four options, each one of which and E was simply dropped, and we were guaranteed the included the closure of the Whittington hospital’s A continuation of the hospital in its current very successful and E department. It is an understatement to say that form? there was shock and horror at the possibility, let alone at the fact that no other possibility was proposed. In the Lynne Featherstone: That is an excellent suggestion, public interest, I leaked the letter to everyone I could. but I suspect that it will not be the instant reaction to How dare it be that that was the first that we in the this debate. I wish that it was. sector knew of the proposal? In the furore that followed, As I was saying, there is no evidence that those 45,000 the letter was hastily withdrawn, and we were told that people who need A and E services could be treated no decisions had been made, and that various options elsewhere. There is no evidence of a business plan, or of and scenarios would be put to a public consultation other facilities in the community that could deal with next autumn. the 40 per cent. of cases that the sector claims could be That letter may have been withdrawn, but it showed treated by other means. Moreover, there is no evidence us the way in which the thinking was going. A strategic of how people would get to the alternative A and E at plan has now been drawn up by north London central. the Royal Free hospital. 283WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 284WH

I have to say to the Minister that the proposal is one Lynne Featherstone: I thank my hon. Friend for that of the worst presented cases for change that I have ever intervention and what he says is entirely the case. That seen. That is putting aside the magnitude of the change is what is so mystifying about the process; why would that is envisaged. There is no case for the closure of the these people not put these documents into the public A and E, paediatrics, obstetrics or maternity departments. domain, so that the documents can be scrutinised and If a medical or clinical practitioner wanted to make a challenged and so that these people can be held to change in procedures or practice, however small, no account? NHS trust would allow it unless it was evidence-based. Why on earth should health planners not have to operate to Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I that same standard of evidence? We have reached a congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. She point at which the options suggest that the Whittington and her Liberal Democrat colleagues set the bar in A and E could be closed without that evidence. Lord terms of community politics. Darzi was quite clear that any change had to be evidence- Is not one of the reasons for the delay in the process based, and that nothing could or should change until the timing of the general election and the desire not to other provision was in place. have a full discussion on this matter, so that voters I want to move on to the specific issue of the Whittington. cannot express their view on it? Is it not disappointing First, the review is being carried out under a false that the Labour party is very happy with the delay? premise. North central London bases its review on the Unfortunately, even the Conservative party proposed in premise that 40 per cent. of current A and E visits could a recent motion in the House that the consultation on be dealt with by other means, such as by GPs out of the issue should be postponed until it was improved, hours, urgent care centres and polyclinics. Even worse, which would further delay it until after the general NHS London says that 50 to 60 per cent. of cases do election. not need to go to A and E. That figure is false. The Department of Health commissioned a report, “Primary Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Gentleman makes an Care and Emergency Departments”, which has just excellent point about timing and the general election. I been published; it is dated March 2010. Paragraph 1.2, fear that, once this issue is kicked into the long grass on under the heading “Main findings”, concluded: the other side of the election, things will go off the boil and the pressure points will not be quite so powerful. “When we used a consistent definition and a consistent denominator of all emergency department cases we found that Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): The hon. the proportion that could be classified as primary care cases Lady is being enormously generous in giving way so (types that are regularly seen in general practice) was between often. I need to respond to the comments that were 10 per cent. and 30 per cent.” made in the last intervention. The Conservative party’s So it is not 40, 50, or 60 per cent. of people who go to A position on this issue was made quite clear in the debate and E who can be treated by other means; it is between in the main Chamber that the hon. Member for Croydon, 10 and 30 per cent. Moreover, where there is a high level Central (Mr. Pelling) just referred to. It is that these of deprivation, that figure moves towards the 10 per documents should be made public now. cent., rather than the 30 per cent. NCL is using data that we now know to be incorrect to support its proposal. Susan Kramer: Sorry? Anything that follows that is based on that flawed data is unsound. Mike Penning: That is categorically our position. Most of the documents are in front of me now and they should be made public now. Then there should be a Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I really thank clinical debate from the bottom up, so that clinicians, my hon. Friend for the points that she is making. Is she GPs and patients, rather than the Department of Health aware that many of the cases where people are identified bureaucracy next door in Richmond house, can decide as possible candidates for treatment in more of a primary what happens to the NHS in London. care setting can only be put into that category after the person has gone through the high-level testing that is Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Gentleman, but only available in the context of an A and E department? I hear from sedentary remarks from my hon. Friend the The number is also false from that perspective. Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer) behind me that that has not always been his view. Lynne Featherstone: My hon. Friend makes an excellent Anyway, as I was saying, NCL is using data to point and I will discuss it further shortly. support its proposals that we now know to be incorrect, so everything that follows is unsound. I suggest to the Minister that on that basis alone NCL should be sent Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): back to the drawing board, at the very least. Does he The point that my hon. Friend is making is incredibly agree? important and relates to the problem of the secrecy that Looking at that statistical base for the Whittington, we have seen in this area. These assumptions, both in we now know that, out of the 83,000 people who visited the primary care analysis that she is citing and in some its A and E department last year, 15,000 people were of the financial evidence that we have seen in some of admitted to hospital and a further 30,000 people were the leaked documents, must be challenged. However, examined, tested and released, which relates to the because these documents are being kept secret, the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond public, Members of Parliament, elected councils and so Park. Those 30,000 people could not have been released on cannot scrutinise them properly and hold the people without first enjoying the facilities and receiving the who produce them to account. care offered by a proper A and E department. Therefore, 285WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 286WH

[Lynne Featherstone] about the performance of out-of-hours services, particularly in Haringey, which is coming off worse than most other if NCL decides to close our local A and E department parts of London. and replace it with urgent care centres or whatever, it Polyclinics are central to NCL’s vision for London, will have to explain in detail how it proposes to care for but there is no statistical base on which to judge whether 45,000 patients a year who need neither to be admitted they will work or deliver improved health outcomes. to hospital as emergency cases or to be subject to urgent The evaluation of polyclinics has barely commenced. investigations that are not within the scope of an urgent The contract to carry out the evaluation of polyclinics care centre. That statistic is evidence that our local was only awarded in January, and I understand that the population need an A and E department at the Whittington. specification is still being debated. The King’s Fund The aspiration to provide local health care services report, “Under One Roof: Will polyclinics deliver integrated closer to people’s homes is admirable, but such services care?” is sceptical about polyclinics. The report argues are not a replacement for A and E. Moreover, those that services out in the community do not exist—they are “a major centralisation of primary care is unlikely to be beneficial nowhere near the required standard. to patients”. The report examines polyclinics abroad, as well as health The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike centres that were created under the local improvement O’Brien): I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving finance trusts. Dr. Laurence Buckman said: way and I congratulate her on securing this debate. I am “The report provides scientific, logical and international evidence listening with care to her argument. I just want to be that polyclinics won’t deliver the things the government believes clear about one point. Does she think that there is merit they will”. in giving clinicians the ability to have a space in which Is the Minister concerned not only that there is criticism to discuss what the best proposals are for London? of polyclinics but that, as yet, they have no evidential basis? There are no data sets and no proof that polyclinics Lynne Featherstone: I am coming on to the issue of will deliver beneficial outcomes, yet we already have whether this process is clinically led or not. If I really draconian proposals. Moreover, a Department of Health believed that the clinicians had been consulted and had spokesperson has said that it was not policy to impose a full part in this process, I might accede to what the polyclinics outside London. So will the Minister say Minister is saying. However, every member of staff that whether it is policy to impose them in London? I have spoken to, at every level of the Whittington, has told me that that is not the case. Based on my conversations Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): I wonder whether with those staff, my understanding is that they are not the hon. Lady has found any confusion among her at all happy with the proposals. constituents about what a polyclinic is. Many people do not understand the term, and if they had something Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for wrong with them, they would not be clear whether they giving way again. I just want to be clear on one point. were supposed to go to their GP, to A and E or to a She seems to be saying that if clinicians were able to polyclinic. become involved in this process—I appreciate that she is saying that some of them may not be involved—and Lynne Featherstone: I am not sure that the clinicians there was that policy space, she would favour giving or health powers, let alone ordinary people in my them that space to have these discussions. constituency, understand what a polyclinic is.

Lynne Featherstone: I wish that the clinicians had had David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the that space before today. I hope that they will still be hon. Lady very much for giving way, and I congratulate engaged, but we would not have arrived at this point if her on securing this debate. Although there is consultation, they had been involved in discussions before now. the Government are insisting on a lot of these changes. Does she therefore agree that the primary concern is the Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I morale of the ordinary staff? The ordinary doctors and congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, nurses are already under pressure, and this process and she is most generous in giving way. Does she agree certainly does not help. that what is concerning is that financial imperatives are driving the process—they come first—so that even if Lynne Featherstone: Indeed. That is why openness, clinicians are involved, they are tied to dealing with the accountability and transparency would be extremely financial problem? helpful. I will now make progress, because other Members want to speak. Lynne Featherstone: My hon. Friend makes a good Urgent care centres are also central to NCL’s vision point. One of the fears that stalk us all is that finance is for London. Data suggest that Government plans to driving the process and that the claim that better clinical replace A and E departments with new urgent care outcomes will be delivered is all smoke and mirrors. centres run by GPs and nurses could actually swamp I was talking about the 40 per cent. of patients whom existing practices with unresolved cases. One of the first NCL say can be treated by other means; in other words, urgent care centres in the country to open is sending up the non-emergency cases that are currently seen in the A to 40 per cent. of its patients back to their GPs. Such and E. But where is the evidence to support that assertion new centres are being developed as a gateway to emergency by NCL? Where are the GPs who will field those 30,000 and urgent care, in a bid to free up A and E departments. extra cases out of hours? The most recent NHS patient However, GPs’ leaders have attacked those plans as survey found that there is already widespread concern lacking an evidence base. That follows a recent warning 287WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 288WH from the College of Emergency Medicine that it had We are told that the situation is all about improved “serious concerns” about urgent care centres, which it clinical outcomes and that it will be good for us. The said were being imposed for reasons of cost and without sector points time after time to stroke and trauma evidence of “clinical or financial benefits”. specialist centres as evidence of improved outcomes. Those emergencies are relatively easily diagnosed, and I now want to talk about the need for A and E, we know that early intervention is critical and can make because why would anyone go to A and E if they did a difference. The problem comes when NHS bosses not need to? The answer is that the Whittington is extrapolate from that across the A and E health spectrum. situated in one of the most socially deprived areas in the It is a complete red herring, as the vast majority of A United Kingdom. Many patients are not registered with and E patients do not present with clear symptoms; that a GP; many of them are probably not registered in this is the whole point of A and E. country. Many people who are not registered with a GP cannot get appointments. People get sick out of hours. The volume and nature of cases currently arriving in Many people do not speak any English and many our A and E departments demand that 24/7 A and E be people are elderly or infirm. A and E staff know that, continued on safety grounds. No one, least of all NHS when people who are so disadvantaged get ill, they wait London, has produced evidence of health care benefits until their symptoms are extremely bad before they see to support the proposals. I have not met a single local a doctor. Consequently, when they present themselves, person who does not think that closing the A and E is they are at a critical stage in their illness and need sheer madness. urgent care. The Whittington is there to give it to them, To me, and seemingly to the entire population of but they must go to A and E first. Hornsey and Wood Green, the clue is in the title “emergency”. That means nearby, local and accessible, Moreover, the north central sector is culturally and not only by ambulance. At no point when developing ethnically diverse. The 2001 Haringey census said that options has the sector team made proper use of the 51 per cent. of the population came from black and information it already holds or can access on the location ethnic minority communities. That is important for of service users, the location of users of specific forms health care, as many people from black and Mediterranean of delivery and delivery locations, users’ social and backgrounds can be affected by sickle-cell anaemia and ethnic make-up and the accessibility of existing and thalassaemia; the Whittington hospital treats more people proposed new delivery systems to public transport service with those conditions than any hospital in the country. users. Access to A and E is essential for them, as those who go Using Google, the Highgate Society researched journey into crisis need urgent and appropriate attention. That times from a wide number of postcodes where users is evidence that the Whittington A and E is vital. would normally access the Whittington, and what those Why damage University college London medical school? journeys would look like if those users had to transfer It is world-class: fifth in the UK, first in London and to the alternative A and E at the Royal Free hospital. 20th in the world. If we want to make London a Journey times for all but four of the 23 postcodes world-class city, what on earth are we doing destroying sampled were longer by up to 40 minutes. On the one part of it that is already world-class? Some 33 per Transport for London route planner, Crouch End cent. of UCL medical students are on the Whittington Broadway—not the most difficult part of my constituency campus. The hospital is central to the university. We from which to access the Whittington—is 21 minutes cannot teach the doctors of the future without A and E. from the Whittington but 50 minutes from the Royal If it goes, education at UCL medical school will be Free hospital and 39 minutes from UCH. The journey thrown into crisis, because students there cannot be involves a bus, two tube lines and a six-minute walk at pushed over to the Royal Free hospital or University the end. college hospital. Where is the evaluation work on that aspect of the proposals? Does the Minister share my Mr. Davey: When you are ill. concern about what closing the A and E will do to the Lynne Featherstone: On that basis alone, any proposal overall standing, status and education of our doctors of to send A and E cases to the Royal Free hospital would the future? threaten health outcomes, not improve them. In addition, Why damage Middlesex university? It may be less the Royal Free hospital is already under pressure, with well known, but the Whittington is also a key partner in 90,000 cases of its own. It is on a confined site to which that university, which teaches nurses, radiographers, access by public transport is terrible. Parking is impossible, dieticians and physiotherapists. The Whittington cannot and even the London ambulance service does not like function without those professionals, who work with going there. the hospital in teams, and they cannot be taught without On finance, the Minister said in an Adjournment an A and E. If the hospital closes, that will all fall apart debate on 2 December: like a house of cards. “I have made it very clear to managers in the NHS that there should be no slash-and-burn cuts”.—[Official Report, 2 December Why damage a hospital of national excellence? In 2009; Vol. 501, c. 1257.] national comparisons of hospitals, the Whittington has At the same time, NHS London is saying that savings of consistently performed superbly. In October 2009, the £355 million a year until 2017 are being required of the Care Quality Commission confirmed the Whittington’s acute sector of north central London. Can the Minister good quality of service and excellent financial management. confirm that? Have the Government made any other In November 2009, the Dr. Foster quality accounts, requests in terms of reducing costs or lowering funding? which rank every hospital in England, identified the Whittington as one of the safest hospitals in the country, Mr. Mike O’Brien: The hon. Lady is being generous giving it an overall rating of 21st out of 145. That is all in giving way. To make it clear, we are seeking savings in evidence-based. order to reinvest them in NHS facilities. It is not about 289WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 290WH

[Mr. Mike O’Brien] for local decision making. As a Liberal Democrat, I would love it if it actually were local decision making, taking money out of the NHS; it is about finding but it is not. My hon. Friend the Member for North savings within the system, particularly from back-office Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who leads on health for the processes, to reinvest in front-line health care. The money Liberal Democrats, said in response to the Minister’s will stay in the NHS. assertions that such decisions were local: “Who are these local decisions taken by? They are taken by Lynne Featherstone: I understand about seeking savings people who have no legitimacy; they have been appointed nationally, from back-office amalgamations across the deal, but so there is no accountability to the communities”.—[Official the complexity of the new arrangements often eat up Report, 9 March 2010; Vol. 507, c. 181.] any savings made from the merger in the first place. We want to be able to hold such organisations to The 82-page “North Central London NHS Strategy proper account. We will oppose any loss of services Plan 2010-2014” barely touches on funding issues. At imposed by unelected, unaccountable quangos. Such no point when developing the options does the team decisions should be local and determined openly and appear to have accessed information from the NHS transparently by democratically accountable bodies. If regarding the unit costs of delivering different classes of it was up to us, we would simply stop the process dead service to service users, the aggregate costs of different in its tracks until that happened. service delivery units, the current account costs of disruption In conclusion, the process is critically flawed, untested, while personnel are reconfigured into new locations, unwanted and dangerous. Does the Minister agree with teams and specialities or the capital costs of closing me that time, energy and resources would be far better some facilities and opening others. Until those costs are spent in finding ways to keep the Whittington A and E, known, it seems somewhat unprofessional not to include, paediatrics and maternity services open if local people at the very least as an option, leaving the current want them, and that we should focus on delivering the configuration as it is. For all we know, that might yield health care that local people need, want and deserve? the best savings. Nor has any serious analysis been made of how Several hon. Members rose— required savings will be found while improving quality of service, what savings might be garnered from the Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. A number change to urgent care centres and polyclinics, how of people are trying to get in. I intend to call the two much it will cost to reconfigure services or what the Front-Bench speakers for the winding-up speeches—[HON. potentially huge costs will be of re-engineering the MEMBERS: “Three.”] Yes, at 3. Hon. Members who catch Royal Free hospital and improving access for the London my eye and contribute to the debate must be as brief as ambulance service, which would have to make an additional possible to enable as many people as possible to speak. 120 journeys a day. The report says nothing about where the resources 3pm will come from. There is no evidence that health care will be improved by any of the measures that I have Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): Thank you, mentioned. I have seen no work on what cost-benefit Mr. Howarth. I think that you extended the debate by might be attributed to the well-being that a patient some time. derives from being in a hospital near home, relatives and friends. Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Sorry, 3.30. I was We in Hornsey and Wood Green are extremely cynical referring to the three Front Benchers. about consultation. Does the Minister agree that the much-vaunted public consultation by NCL, which Jeremy Corbyn: It is good that we are discussing comprised 80 people from across five boroughs, was health, not education or maths. I will be brief, Mr. Howarth. derisory? It cannot possibly be considered of any value I congratulate the hon. Member for Hornsey and to consult 80 people from five boroughs. At no public Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) on securing this meeting has any research been quoted regarding user debate. She rightly concentrated on the local issues preferences or user satisfaction. That is wholly contrary facing the Whittington hospital, which is in my constituency to practice in the commercial sector and the Government’s and serves many neighbouring areas. I will say a few own guidelines on personalisation of public services. words about it and make a couple of general points. I Collecting satisfaction data through diverse contact will be as brief as I can because other hon. Members points should be a routine element of the management wish to speak and it is important that they do. of service delivery. We debated this matter in the House last week, and I At the public meeting I organised, which nearly secured an Adjournment debate on the Whittington 400 people attended, one questioner asked what would hospital not long ago. The Minister has acknowledged happen if everyone opposed the proposal to close the A that he is fully aware of the huge strength of local and E. Richard Sumray, chair of Haringey PCT, refused feeling from all sections of the community, all political to say that it would be enough to stop the process, parties and all leading opinion formers in the relevant answering that he could not say what would be in the boroughs of Camden, Islington and Haringey on the consultation. No wonder we are cynical. Perhaps the plans for the Whittington hospital and the north London Minister will be more direct. What volume of opposition area. There have been two public meetings in my does he consider necessary before he would be willing to constituency with an aggregate attendance of about uphold the wishes of local people? 700 or 750. The hon. Lady held a meeting attended by In an answer to my early written questions to the 400 people and 5,000 people attended a public Minister about the issue, I was told that it was a matter demonstration in March. 291WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 292WH

On the march, all sections of the community, all ages treated and dealt with appropriately. We all want a and a huge variety of political opinions were represented. better public health system. I have here a copy of the There was a genuine feeling of support and affection for weighty north central London strategic plan. It outlines the local hospital, and a feeling that the way in which the kind of changes the health authorities want to the NHS operates is not accountable to the public, local develop. I agree with the hon. Lady that the plans seem representatives or anybody else. I am sure the Minister to have been developed behind closed doors by planners sometimes feels that decisions are made in the NHS without obvious signs of clinical support from anybody. without the degree of accountability that there would That is the point I make to the Minister. be in a local authority. There is no feeling that those Hordes of GPs have not been telling me that they who make the decisions will be held to account for what want the Whittington hospital to be downgraded, that they do. That sense of frustration is behind a great deal they want A and E facilities to be concentrated at of what is being said and done locally. University College hospital and North Middlesex hospital, The health situation in my borough is difficult. It is or that other matters should be transferred to regional not the most prosperous part of the country, despite trauma centres. I have not come across that, but I have what the media and popular press say about the Islington come across professors in various departments, surgeons, lifestyle, with the restaurants, coffee bars and the pine consultants, administrators and many others who have furniture around Tufnell Park. the deepest concern about what is going on and want transparency and openness in the process. They correctly Mr. Pelling: Liberal voters. feel that if the Whittington A and E department is closed, the large population of 80,000 people who use it Jeremy Corbyn: Well, in my area, we are talking every year will have nowhere to go. That compares with about Labour voters. My point is that the borough is 70,000 people who use the Royal Free, 100,000 who use one of the most deprived in London, and is therefore UCH and a large number who use North Middlesex. If one of the most deprived parts of the country. Its image the Whittington A and E department closes, there will belies a great deal of poverty. The same can be said be no A and E department in the boroughs of Haringey about most parts of London, which is an interesting and Islington. microcosm of the world in that rich and poor live side by side and there is desperate poverty alongside huge The former chief executive of Islington primary care personal disposable wealth. trust, who is now chief executive of the North Central health authority, said that there would be waking-hours I thank the Government for recognising since 1997 surgeries in place of the services that are lost. That the link between poverty and ill health. As Secretary of conjures up the image of people ensuring that they have State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for heart attacks before 8 o’clock at night because after that Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) recognised they would have to go somewhere else. People are given the importance of putting more money into deprived the illusion that there is an A and E department when it areas, putting more effort into improving public health is not there all the time. In my book, either there is a through anti-smoking campaigns and obesity campaigns, blue-light 24/7 department or there is no A and E giving instant cancer treatment where possible and all department at all. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the other improvements that have been introduced. that. I am sure he understands the point I am making. There have been tangible improvements: the death rate, the infant mortality rate and the instance of many The consultation was not due to start until the summer. notifiable diseases have done down as a result of those I had an Adjournment debate in the House, which campaigns. They have gone down everywhere, although provoked flurries of letters from people in various not anywhere near fast enough. parts. We had the demonstration, which provoked a We still have huge problems with alcohol, substance statement on the NHS Islington website acknowledging misuse, teenage pregnancy, hypertension, obesity, cancer that a large number of people were upset about the and heart disease. There are a series of issues to be dealt proposals and inviting further comments. That was with. Improving people’s living standards, housing good, although it is a pity it did not happen some conditions, diet and health knowledge are key in improving months before. I understand that some kind of consultation the health of the nation. I am sure there is common is going on today, although I am rather unclear about ground on that point. It is also important that we have a who has been invited to it or how they got invited. national health service that is fully accessible. It is simply not good enough to take a semi-secret I have been the Member of Parliament for Islington, approach to developing plans and to spring them on the North since 1983, an elected representative in Haringey public at a later date; local people’s wishes are out in the or Islington since 1974 and have been in and out of the open now. I have no problem whatever with improving Whittington hospital on hundreds of occasions. I know GP services, and I have no problem with developing the place very well and I know many of the local health regional trauma centres, because I can see the sense in services and facilities very well. We have been through high-quality treatment for people with serious, major difficult times: parts of the Whittington hospital have conditions, but such things should not be an alternative been closed, various wards were closed because of funding to an A and E department. crises in the 1980s and early 1990s, and we have been I am told that, behind all that, the proposals are all to through a desperate shortage of GPs. Those things have do with saving £500 million from the north central area changed and the health service has improved—I am the health authority budget. I do not know where that first to recognise that. figure has come from; it has not come from the Minister I have read with great interest the plans for changes in or the Treasury, and nobody, as far as I am aware, says health care in London. Obviously, we want everyone to that a Government source has said it is the figure we go to a local health centre where possible and to be must work from. Somebody somewhere is second-guessing 293WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 294WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] Princess Royal University hospital in Bromley, the Queen Elizabeth in Woolwich and Queen Mary’s—for financial the future, deciding what the expenditure will be and reasons, not for reasons of clinical need. The Minister is developing plans to fit in with it, and that is not good well aware of the problems in my area, although he does enough. not take them on board. Often, he just trots out public We live in a democracy, so we expect public officials relations spin. His response in last week’s debate was to be accountable and public services to be developed in rather regrettable, because he did not deal with the the public interest. As elected Members of Parliament, concerns of people in my area. There are four key we expect those responsible to make their plans open to issues. I will be brief, Mr. Howarth, in view of your the public, just as elected councillors would expect local strictures on getting as many people as possible into the authorities to do. We expect the public to respond to the debate. plans and we expect that decisions will ultimately be made, presumably in Parliament. However, it sometimes Mr. Mike O’Brien: I feel that I need to interrupt the seems to me, as a local MP, that we do not really know hon. Gentleman, because I was not spouting spin, as he what is going on and that the secrecy applies just as put it. I criticised the Conservative party for having much to MPs as it does to anybody else. absolutely no policy of any seriousness on the NHS in London other than that of taking budgets from GPs. Whatever the outcome of this process, I hope that the That is just an abdication of responsibility, and that is big lesson learned across the whole of London is that what the hon. Gentleman did not like to hear. we want much more effective accountability for how the NHS plans and develops its services. The development of borough scrutiny committees is a good thing, as is Mr. Evennett: That is absolute nonsense. I was raising the development of borough to local PCT scrutiny in the position in south-east London, which the Minister cases where boundaries are coterminous. Such things will not address with any vigour, although he should. work well, but we also have regional groupings in London, That is lamentable. which have no parallel scrutiny whatever, unless all the There are four issues: accountability, consultation, local authorities—five in this case—successfully get together secrecy and the adequate provision of health care—all to set up a wider scrutiny arrangement. So far, that has issues that concern my part of south-east London. On not happened, although there are suggestions that it all counts, the Government, the Minister and the people might. in NHS London making the decisions following the I am proud to represent my area in Parliament. I am setting out of the Darzi vision, or whatever it was proud of the work that has been done at the Whittington called, have been found wanting. hospital. I am proud of the amount of money that has We recently had a letter from Ruth Carnall suggesting been put into the hospital over the past 10 years—the that polyclinics were the answer, and that a polyclinic new wards, the new facilities, the new equipment and would go on the site of Queen Mary’s, Sidcup. As we the increased staff numbers. The hospital has a very know, Labour is downgrading the hospital’s A and E good performance record on treating casualties, on and its maternity and children’s services, and there are maternity, on the children’s A and E department and on real concerns about that. There was recently an outbreak all the specialties that go with that. If the A and E is of norovirus at a nearby hospital, which forced the closed, however, the hospital is dead, because it will not hospital to send more A and E patients to Queen be a general hospital any more. Mary’s. If Queen Mary’s did not have an A and E, I appeal to the Minister to look carefully into this where would such patients go? That is a real concern in issue. If there is some way in which he can intervene and my area. Under the provisions, people will have to travel say, “We are not going to destroy this valuable A and E further to access emergency care. department and, with it, the hospital,” I would be very I very much regret the proposal to have a polyclinic happy. Above all, however, tens of thousands of people on the site of Queen Mary’s. As the hon. Member for across north London, who do not have access to cars Islington, North, said, once we start downgrading services, and who cannot easily go to a local hospital because a hospital is no longer really the proper hospital that there is none, will feel a lot happier and a lot more people in our areas need, but a local facility. I commend secure. We have a rising, increasingly young and diverse the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green on her population, and we have a yawning gap between the exposition of the situation in her area; that situation is, rich and the poor. The NHS is our NHS, and it should regrettably, replicated in mine. be accountable to us, not anybody else. Since the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003, which allowed 24-hour drinking, the number of hospital 3.13 pm admissions due to acute alcohol intoxication has doubled, and the number of admissions wholly attributable to Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): alcohol has increased by 70 per cent. That, too, is It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islington, having an impact on A and E, particularly during the North (Jeremy Corbyn), because we have similar problems night, when, under the proposals, hospital A and E in south-east London. If the A and E at Queen Mary’s, departments would not be available to take people in, as Sidcup, is closed, Bexley will be the only borough in the the hon. Member for Islington, North said. area with no A and E. I am really concerned that we are rushing through I congratulate the hon. Member for Hornsey and changes without sensible thought, consultation and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) on securing the discussion. I have respect for the Minister, and some of debate. The issue is of real concern across the whole of his work has been commendable, but he is, regrettably, our capital city. In my part of south-east London, the blinkered on this issue. He will not look at the whole health care trust is amalgamating three hospitals—the issue of secrecy and consultation. The proposals for 295WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 296WH change in my area are not clinically led, but financially that I am being irksome, but I was surprised that, in the led, because Queen Mary’s, Sidcup, is the only hospital motion that went before the House, the Opposition in the group that did not come under the private finance suggested that there should be a delay in the consultation initiative. Why have the costs for the PFI-funded Queen until the proposals that were being pushed forward were Elizabeth hospital in Woolwich spiralled to £799 million, cancelled. It would be unfortunate if that led the when the building’s estimated cost was £96 million? Conservative party to say that there should be a delay That issue also needs to be looked at. I am really until after the election. It is important that the consultation concerned that we are reducing the number of hospital should happen as part of the election process; that is the beds across most of the capital, and particularly in my real empowerment of electors. area, when increasing numbers of patients are seeking The debate would be helped by a realisation that the A and E treatment, and when numbers of emergency work done by Lord Darzi relied on quite a small database admissions are rising. to justify the centres of excellence approach. In many If an open consultation had taken place, a different medical matters, it is much better to be treated quickly decision would have resulted. As in the case mentioned by a medically qualified person than to be taken miles by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green, across busy suburban London to be treated. there was a consultation, but as I said in my intervention I now come to how we could inform the debate, given on her, it was a sham, because the decisions had already the suggestion that there is to be a significant change in been made before the consultation took place, and the provision. It was not the case when I was at Oxford, but Minister must take that on board. It appears that the students these days are often required to include academic decisions taken were those proposed in the first place. references when they make certain propositions. The We had four alternative proposals, but one of them— Government seem not to be doing that. They are not keeping Queen Mary’s, Sidcup, open—was not on the willing to publish the McKinsey report, but even Labour agenda. Ministers and Members are calling for it to be brought So we did not have a proper consultation at all in our forward. There have also been freedom of information area on the future of our local hospital. I very much requests. Will the Minister of State say now that the regret that an issue so critical for the whole of London report can be published? is being quickly swept under the carpet so that the Many of us have copies of the proposals, which we Government can move on without considering patients’ have been given in confidence. Bearing in mind that needs, real care and the availability of services in the they have now been widely circulated, is it not best for area. Of course we welcome the opportunity to have the Minister to give the London NHS some guidance? dialysis and cancer treatment services at Queen Mary’s, Please may we now be allowed formally to publish the Sidcup, but not if that is at the expense of a valuable, proposals, so that the quality of debate can be higher? vital local service. If that is lost, we shall not get it back, and the patients will be the ones to suffer. Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): The hon. Gentleman The debate so far has been useful. I hope—I beg—that makes a good point. We had an Opposition day debate the Minister will consider my area, and that he will not last week; perhaps there could have been better give the party political line that he did when he intervened communication after it, but nothing has really happened on me, but will consider the issues of patients and care, as a result of raising those concerns. and the concerns about secrecy, accountability and consultation. I ask him to respond to those issues—I Mr. Pelling: That is an excellent point, and I am sure know that he can, as an honourable chap—for the sake that other hon. Members have excellent points to make, of people in my area who feel that the Government do so I shall finish my remarks there. not care. 3.24 pm 3.20 pm Mr.EdwardDavey(Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): My congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey arithmetic suggests that I have three minutes and 20 seconds. and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), who is an It is important for me to take part in the debate; I feel excellent campaigner for her constituents on this issue. that I owe my return to good health to the NHS. There What is happening in the area that she and the hon. is great loyalty to the NHS, and all parties will reflect Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) represent that. should be a warning to the rest of London about what The consultation process is a matter of concern. We could happen if we do not campaign cross-party and often had debates 30 years ago about how the ability to work against such threats, and for greater openness. influence education was a secret garden. In some ways, This is the third debate in the past two months in perhaps that is applicable to the consultation process which my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park that we are considering, which has in many ways already (Susan Kramer) and I have argued the case against the taken place internally, within the NHS. We political threats to Kingston’s accident and emergency and maternity representatives are sceptical and wonder whether decisions services—and, indeed, its in-patient paediatrics, and have already been made. As the hon. Member for Hornsey potentially its elective surgery services, too. I make no and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) said, people apology for wanting to speak on the subject again, probably feel “consulted out”; they are consulted, but because yesterday we took a petition of more than that is an empty process. 15,000 signatures to Downing street to try to make our That feeling that the process is an empty one is points to No. 10. highlighted by the way in which the Government seem We want to keep raising the issue for three major happy for the issue to be delayed until after the election. reasons. First, when we raised it initially we were accused The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman may think by our political opponents of scaremongering. The 297WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 298WH

[Mr. Edward Davey] be clinically led, and we wish it was, but clearly it is not. It is financially led. In all the documents that we have evidence that we have now heard from hon. Members seen, and at all the meetings that we have held, the across the House is that that is not true. I wish that arguments have not been made on a clinical basis at all. those who made the accusation would apologise, so we They are very different from the arguments made for could get on with the campaign and work in a cross-party centralisation of stroke and cardiac provision, or for way in Kingston. polyclinics. The arguments in this secret exercise are not Secondly, as the hon. Member for Croydon, Central clinical, and it is about time that the Minister faced up (Mr. Pelling) said, the documents that set out the detail to that. of what is going on need to be put in the public domain. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and I 3.29 pm have benefited from leaks from senior NHS people, Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): I shall use my which we have made public. We have put them on our minute as best I can. It is a shame that we have to rush websites to show the sorts of threats that are faced in these things, because the issue is obviously of great south-west London by Kingston hospital, Mayday importance to everyone in London. I notice from the University hospital in Croydon, and St. Helier hospital annunciator that the business in the main Chamber in Carshalton. They are clear about those threats. We seems to be about to finish. It is a shame that three have heard that there is much more: we have heard hours will be wasted there, when we could be discussing about the McKinsey report, and those documents should this matter in the main Chamber. be put in the public domain. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park has tried 57 freedom of When we have these debates, it becomes very clear information requests, but the Government and various that our hospitals in London are much loved and much elements of the health service refuse to publish the used. Yes, there will sometimes be criticism—we all have documents. The Minister should put his foot down criticisms that something has gone wrong here and today and show leadership. He should ask NHS London there—but our hospitals are much loved and much to publish those important documents. used. We also need to make things clear to the public. The There have been some excellent speeches, and I agree consultation timetable in many areas is relatively short. with everything that has been said, but one thing we My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and I must think about is whether we are dealing with the attended a briefing with two senior NHS executives last issue from the viewpoint of what people want. In other week, and they talked about putting their shortlist of words, we want to keep the good local hospitals we closure proposals into the public domain in October, have, and we should be considering how we can maintain with the formal consultation concluding by next January. them, not how we can get rid of some of them. I have Those things are upon us. The assumptions behind the no problem with the concept of stroke and major work and the proposals that are to come out in the trauma departments going to specialist hospitals, but I autumn are already there, but we cannot challenge do have a problem with accident and emergency and them. As I have said, some of those assumptions deserve possibly maternity departments disappearing from all to be challenged, because they are flawed. those hospitals—regardless of where they are in London— because once they go, the viability of that hospital The third reason why I want to keep arguing the case will go. is the excellent services at Kingston hospital. I have said from the start that it is unthinkable that they should be I say to the Minister that we know what our constituents closed, because they are so good, whether that is judged want, what we want and what the country wants. We by reports from independent groups such as Dr. Foster, and the NHS have a duty to try to continue to use the or by NHS inspectors. It is not that we resist change. In hospitals we have. It is no good trying to cover the issue my area—at least on the Surbiton site—polyclinics are up in some way and saying that it is a wonderful being introduced not to undermine the hospital, but to exercise, because that simply will not wash with the support health services locally. The polyclinic that is general population. proposed for Surbiton hospital is really an excuse for us locally to put modern investment into the site; it will not 3.31 pm replace services at Kingston, but take some of the Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I echo excess pressure from it. the remarks of the hon. Member for Uxbridge The number of attendances at A and E goes up year (Mr. Randall): we need more time to debate the issue by year, and that is very difficult for the Kingston site. properly, so that the expressions of concern can go With a rebuilt polyclinic on the Surbiton hospital site, further and we can dwell on the detail. An awful lot of we can get better GP premises and more investment in detail needs to be challenged and, frankly, exposed. I primary care services. That makes sense and would congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey work if we kept Kingston hospital. Kingston hospital’s and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) on securing the chief executive and board are happy with the proposal debate, and all hon. Members who have taken part. for the polyclinic at Surbiton hospital, and see it as The speeches made today have demonstrated the something that could improve their services. I accept clamour among local communities for greater that things may be different elsewhere, because all areas accountability. There is a demand for full disclosure and are different, but the polyclinic on the Surbiton hospital an absolute belief that we should have genuine, robust site could support the future of Kingston hospital. public consultation that is not just about rubber-stamping Other hon. Members may want to contribute quickly, an outcome, but about influencing an outcome, so that so I shall keep my final remarks short, but I want to people feel some ownership of the decisions that are question the Minister. He says that the proposal should being made. None of that is happening in the processes 299WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 300WH that hon. Members have described today. Undoubtedly, suggested in the NHS Confederation pamphlet that that is driving their concerns about the real threats that came out this week. That document states: are articulated in documents, such as the one from “The NHS cannot and should not wait for government action Kingston. Such threats would lead to the closure of A to respond to the financial challenge.” and E departments and maternities around London. Have we lost political control of the NHS and, therefore, My first point is a local one. I thank the Minister for accountability for it? Will the Minister give us some the very engaging and engaged way in which he has reassurance that he and his colleagues are still ultimately taken forward the outline business case for investment accountable and in charge? If not, and if we are simply in a patient wing at St. Helier hospital. My hon. Friend constantly reassured that clinicians are involved in the the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) process, my hon. Friends and I fear that clinicians are and the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain being held hostage to a process that is about budgets. McDonagh) also appreciate that. It has demonstrated That is not good enough. Yes, the process should be what Ministers can do when they engage with strategic clinically led; but, it has to be clinically led solely on the health authorities and local NHS organisations. That basis of clinical judgments. Even when the process is leads us to ask why the same thing does not appear to carried out on the basis of clinical judgments, the public have happened in relation to the wider genuine concern deserve the right to be able to test the assumptions. That welling up in communities around London that the is what has been missing until now; we need the ability processes of consideration—dressed up by clinical to test the assumptions. language—about how to make the books balance are As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Croydon, about to lead to deep and damaging cuts in services. Central (Mr. Pelling), requests were made for the publication of the McKinsey report in exchanges last week. The Mr. Pelling: The clinical language itself shows the Minister indicated that Ruth Carnall, chief executive of falsity of the approach. There is talk of a 70 per cent. NHS London, would, of course, be listening to the reduction in A and E visits and a 30 per cent. reduction debate and would act on the basis of what she had in visits to GPs. Surely that is just unobtainable. heard. As has been said, in the week since that debate, nothing has been published, nothing has been said and nothing has changed in relation to the nature of the Mr. Burstow: That is a fair point. One of the frustrating process that is going on. That report should have been things is that Ministers understandably tell us that published. Although the Minister may feel unable to decisions about budgets and how services are organised instruct, I hope he will ask NHS London to put the are local decisions. My hon. Friend the Member for report into the public domain, because we ought to Hornsey and WoodGreen and others who have contributed have the opportunity to see what it has to say. to the debate pointed out that, therefore, the argument This is an important debate about the very essence of is made that Ministers are not directly accountable for what we should expect of a public service. Such a those things. Yet how can we have genuine local service should be open and transparent, so we need full accountability when primary care trusts are made up of disclosure. Those involved should understand that people who are nationally appointed and who are largely, consultation must be held at a formative stage and that if not entirely, unknown by the communities that they it is not just an end-of-process thing done to tick a box are meant to serve? As a consequence, PCTs cannot before implementing what they had decided would be offer genuine and meaningful accountability for the done anyway. Such a service should be accountable to choices they make about the allocated resources that us in this place and, more important, to those who send they are spending. us here. It should be accountable at the ballot box; it is A good example is the £150 million that was trumpeted not now, but it needs to be in the future, as that is the by the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Corby only sure-fire way of ensuring we have an NHS that (Phil Hope) to pay for respite breaks for carers. Hon. people are confident in and that will deliver the services Members were challenged to go back to our PCTs and we demand. dig out the figures. It was impossible to find those figures; many PCTs were reluctant to provide them. The 3.38 pm same is true when it comes to the proposals for the Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): As other reconfiguration and reorganisation of services. We are Members have said, it is a pleasure to take part in a finding that it is difficult to get the detail on to the third debate on the future of NHS London. I reiterate public agenda and out into the public domain, so that the comments commending the hon. Member for Hornsey people can start to ask meaningful questions. and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) for securing the My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk debate. I also commend her for the tone in which she (Norman Lamb), who speaks for the Liberal Democrats made her speech on behalf of her constituents, which on these issues, is genuinely concerned about the lack of was eminently sensible. accountability and transparency surrounding the whole Like many of the discussions we have had on the process. After reading last week’s debate and the exchanges subject, this debate is about trust and whether people between the Minister and my hon. Friend, I am led to can trust us as politicians and the Government to ask whether the Minister or his ministerial colleagues produce for them the health service that they deserve in have authorised the processes that are going on in the 21st century. The NHS has £110 billion of taxpayers’ London. Is he aware of them in any detail, and can he money, but can people feel safe that the NHS around say what the strategic health authority, which he oversees, them is free at the point of delivery and that their needs is telling him about those processes and what the timetable and those of GPs will be understood? is? Alternatively, is the Minister being kept in the dark The Minister has said today and on several other like the rest of us? Have NHS managers gone AWOL occasions that the reviews are being clinically led. He and decided to take control of the matter, as seems to be said that because the public trust clinicians a lot more than 301WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 302WH

[Mike Penning] pushes them along until they eventually reach the light of day without support from anyone, and yet somehow politicians. That is eminently sensible. However, the they end up becoming fact. truth is that the process is not being led by clinicians. The debate started with Lord Darzi’s earlier report Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman has touched on on his vision for the future of the NHS in London. I an important point. Clinicians are not only often excluded, spoke with him before he became a peer when he was an but gagged and not allowed to tell the people they serve adviser to the Health Committee, of which I had the about their concerns. If they do, their careers are put at honour of being a member. He is a highly intelligent risk. That has happened in my constituency and it is and highly skilled surgeon, but when I pushed him on happening today. Some of the clinicians who have been his report bits of it started to flake off, because it was a speaking to me have been leaking documents to me that vision. When he gave evidence to the Committee on the the Minister says he has not seen. If he indicates that he report we asked him how much of the estate in London would like me to supply them to him I will be happy to would go under his vision, but he gave no answer, even do so. I have all of them but one, for the whole of though I pushed him extensively. London. I would have hoped that he would have seen them, because the Government cannot exclude themselves We have not spoken about the fact that 15 per cent. of from a report from NHS London that is based on the NHS estate in London is currently sitting empty. deficits in the funding supplied by the Government and That is where some of the savings could be made the assumptions based on that, which mean cuts proposed tomorrow morning and where some income could come for London. in straight away. I know the economic climate out there is difficult, but instead of leaving the estate to become even more decrepit and for some developer to come Mr. Pelling: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? along, let us be forward-thinking about it. Mike Penning: I will not give way because I want to I am afraid that the clinician argument is fundamentally give the Minister sufficient time to respond. When we flawed, which is shown on page 3 of NHS London’s go further into the document, we find the assumption document “Delivering Healthcare for London”, the that hospitals can only stop—it is stop—people going whole premise of which is the shortfall in funding. to an A and E and get them to go elsewhere by physically Several assumptions are made in that document, the closing the A and E, because when one is open people final one being that there will be a shortfall of between will invariably go to it. Some of the assumptions are £1.5 billion and £1.7 billon in 2016-17. I have no confidence dramatic, such as the one that polyclinics in the primary in the document, because when one reads it one finds care sector could take up to 60 per cent. of A and E that it is not only fundamentally flawed in its assumptions, attendances. Funding models have been based on that but flawed simply in its maths. It assumes funding assumption. growth of 2.3 per cent., but that figure is actually a cut of 2.3 per cent., because the minus sign has been left However, attendances at A and E increased last year, out. That does not give my constituents, or any others, even in areas where polyclinics are open. In areas of much faith. London represented by Members who are not here today, but which I have visited in recent weeks—such as I mention my constituents because we have always areas of north-west London—A and E attendances come into London for specialist services. With the went up by 15 per cent. last year alone, even though demise of some of the hospitals in my area, it is obvious some of those hospitals have bolted on GP-led triage at that more and more of those services will be required in the front so that they can get some of the people who London. we would all accept should not be going to A and E to The hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) another triage point. and others raised concerns about the consultation and The point is that the public trust an A and E. They about whether the public are being duped. Are we being will go to an A and E. We can sometimes address the asked to take part in a consultation on something that problems of access to GPs, which can be why people go has already been decided? That is happening in my to A and Es, but to assume that we can get 60 per cent. constituency, where 82 per cent. of my constituents said of the public who need services to decide not to go to an no to the closure of the A and E, but it went ahead. As A and E is beyond belief. several Members have said, if one loses the A and E, One document that has not been withheld is the one loses the hospital. Let us have no illusions about Government’s own report, “Primary Care and Emergency that, because the hospital loses its intensive care, its Departments”, which they commissioned from David high-dependency unit, its beds and its theatres. Those Carson, Henry Clay and Rick Stern. Their assumptions will all go if the A and E goes, because that is the are astonishing, because they actually agree with what back-up a hospital requires for an A and E. our constituents are saying: My hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and “We were surprised to find that there is no evidence that Crayford (Mr. Evennett) alluded to the worries in south-east providing primary care in emergency departments could tackle London. He has every right to be concerned, because if rising costs to help to avoid unnecessary admissions.” those sorts of cuts are made to the front of A and E, the That is just one excerpt from the press release for that services behind it will go immediately. report. In it, the experts and clinicians state that proposals to try to close A and E departments and get people into Jeremy Corbyn: Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge primary care fundamentally will not work. The Government that often plans are drawn up for health service changes want to bury that conclusion. They did not want it to from which clinicians themselves feel excluded? The come out or to have the debates we have had for the past changes seem to have some motor of their own that three weeks. 303WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 304WH

Should the policy go ahead? No, it must be stopped difficult. It makes people feel insecure. After the 1980s, in its tracks because the whole premise is fundamentally when everything was based on cuts, the assumption was flawed, as shown in the Government’s own documentation. that the NHS was all financially driven, and then a As the shadow Health Minister and the shadow Secretary bunch of politicians stand up and say, “Of course it is, of State have told NHS London, we have promised a because it is the Labour party.” That is not the basis of real-terms growth in NHS funding. The Government what Lord Darzi set out, nor the basis upon which he are not reinvesting money elsewhere in the NHS, which got clinicians all around the capital and, indeed, the is what the Minister has said they will do. They assume country to support his approach. that there will be cuts in NHS funding, and that is stated on page 3, right at the start of the document Mr. Pelling: Will the Minister give way? “Delivering Healthcare for London”. It is imperative that the Minister does not shirk his responsibilities. Mr. O’Brien: I will give way in just a moment. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), Lord Darzi did that by engaging clinicians on the the Liberal Democrat spokesman, said that Ministers quality of care, and that is the basis upon which change cannot tell NHS London to publish those documents, must be made. However, let us be clear about this and, but they can and they should because they are paid to just for once, be honest with our constituents. It is take responsibility. They should tell NHS London to important that hon. Members are honest with their publish the documents so that we know what the proposals constituents. Change does require change. It requires are and can debate them. We could then robustly refute that hospitals and what people have been used to in the most of the assumptions and look at what is best for the past must change, and that means—[Interruption.] Perhaps constituents of London, from the bottom up, from GPs the hon. Member for Croydon, Central should settle and patients, rather than from the top down. down. I have said that I will give way in a moment, if he will just calm down a little. He is chuntering from a It is not a case of scaring people. I have visited many sedentary position. I realise that he is now independent, hospitals in the past few weeks and I know that NHS and I can see why his party would want him— staff are really worried. They do a fantastic job, but at the moment their morale is low and they are genuinely Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. The Minister worried that they will be unable to deliver the sort of has indicated that he intends to give way. The hon. care London deserves. We must not scare people, and I Gentleman should accept that assurance and await the am afraid that I have to reiterate the point that the opportunity to speak. Liberal Democrats have been scaring people in Kingston, which is fundamentally wrong. We should have a proper Mr. O’Brien: Perhaps a little less aggression from the debate so that the clinicians feel comfortable to tell us hon. Gentleman might be in order on this occasion. publicly what London needs. We should listen to them, It is important that NHS provision in London is rather than to the top-down Treasury officials who are clinically based on quality, and not financially driven. I trying to cut money from the NHS, which is what the have been very clear with managers in London and Government want to do. around the country that the NHS has priorities. The first priority is patient safety and patient care, and the 3.48 pm second relates to targets and finance—in that order. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike Today, thanks to major improvements in A and E O’Brien): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member and waiting times and, for example, the inclusion of for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) on cancer scores as of last summer, NHS London has securing the debate and on recognising the hard work improved significantly. Not only are 28 new hospital and dedication of clinicians and staff leading the schemes, worth £1.8 billion, already open to patients changes to the NHS in that constituency and across the and another three, worth £1.2 billion, under construction, rest of the capital. Her constituents deserve the very but we are also seeing improvements in the constituency best of health care, and that is what we want to ensure of the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green at they are provided with. Despite the best efforts of NHS University College hospital in north central London staff, I do not believe that they are currently getting the and with the £30 million scheme at the Whittington, very best. which I shall return to in a moment. Until recently, London had some of the worst health In January, only three people waited more than 13 weeks care provision in the country. In 2007, London was for an out-patient appointment, down from more than performing poorly on waiting times, mortality rates and 40,000—indeed, 43,639—in 1998. That is a massive patient experience, relative to other strategic health improvement in health care in London. We have also authority areas. According to a MORI poll conducted seen improvements in terms of strokes and heart attacks. in 2009, 37 per cent. of Londoners were unhappy with Significant changes are taking place in London. the time it takes to see a GP. Another result found that Londoners relied disproportionately on A and E. A Mr. Pelling rose— recent study of unscheduled care concluded that 87 per Lynne Featherstone rose— cent. of children and young people attending A and E could have been better treated in a primary or community Mr. O’Brien: I promised to give way to the hon. care setting. That is simply not an acceptable way for Gentleman. He has now calmed down and let the things to continue in our capital city. vibrations settle a little, so I shall give way to him. The policy that we have set out in “Healthcare for London” is about giving Londoners what they deserve Mr. Pelling: I think that the Minister is quite wrong in terms of better health care and high-quality, clinically to describe my behaviour as aggressive, and I greatly appropriate treatment when they need it. But change is resent the suggestion. 305WH London Hospitals17 MARCH 2010 London Hospitals 306WH

[Mr. Pelling] Barts; Dr. Daghni Rajasingham, consultant obstetrician; Denise Chaffer, the director of nursing at the Mayday The Minister is being very earnest, and I believe that Healthcare NHS Trust; Professor Dame Donna Kinnair, the electorate understand and appreciate that approach. director of nursing at NHS Southwark; Dr. Fionna Nevertheless, would it not be right to say that the Moore, the medical director of the London Ambulance information that we are not allowed to share strongly Service; Dr. Geraldine Strathdee, consultant psychiatrist leads with the financial concerns of London NHS? It is and director of clinical services at Oxleas NHS Foundation unfair to state that the changes are not driven by Trust; Matt Thompson, professor of vascular surgery— finance. The officials’ papers that we are not allowed to [Interruption.] I could go on. This is a long list of discuss deal with the significant financial pressures that eminent clinicians who are anxious that the attempt by London NHS faces. Therefore, finance is a significant some politicians to frustrate the process for short-term driver of the changes. Does he accept that? political purposes should not be allowed to happen.

Mr. O’Brien: I have not said that managers should be Lynne Featherstone: Will the Minister give way? unconcerned about finance—that would be ridiculous. One expects managers and clinicians to care, first and Mr. O’Brien: No, I have only a few minutes, so I hope foremost, about the quality of health care in London. that the hon. Lady will forgive me. I appreciate that this Secondly, and in that order, finances and how care is is her debate, but I want to deal with her suggestion that delivered come into it. The taxpayer does not have somehow there is secrecy. unlimited money, nor does the NHS. Perhaps we all We have tried to give clinicians a space where they wish that it did, but at the same time, such issues have to can debate some of these issues and discuss what is best be looked at in terms of priorities. for London. They do not want to engage in public controversy. That takes time and energy, which they Lynne Featherstone: The Minister is being very sincere would rather spend on their patients. We need to give about the fact that we cannot have change without them the ability to discuss what is best for London, and change—I totally accept that—but the thesis of my how best to deliver health care. If every time they have a 25-minute contribution was that there is no evidential discussion and put something on paper, or there is a base in the public domain on which to argue for that minute of a meeting or a report, it has to be put out in change or to bring people along with it. That is the the public arena, so that Liberal Democrat MPs can point that the Minister needs to answer. attack them over their lack of evidence and so on, they will withdraw from engaging in the discussion of health Mr. O’Brien: I have already said that health care in care for London. The result will be that patients in London is improving. I should add that NHS budgets London—patients whom the hon. Lady and her colleagues for PCTs are increasing by 5.5 per cent. overall this year represent—will suffer because they will not have input and by 5.5 per cent. next year, if this Government are from those clinicians. re-elected. I cannot speak for the other lot, if they were Clinicians are asking for that space and for the ability to get in. Things are improving. to discuss and come forward with reasonable proposals. I can also tell the hon. Lady that it is clear that That was the basis on which Darzi put together his clinicians are behind the process of change. A number proposals, and it is on that basis that we are trying to of eminent clinicians have today written a letter calling ensure that clinicians have the space to have discussions. for “Healthcare for London”to be developed and become I hope that the beneficiaries of that will be people in the basis on which change takes place. They say that it is London, who are looking for good health care. “the best opportunity for a generation to truly transform the NHS. It is now or never.” Lynne Featherstone: Will the Minister give way? The messages in the letter, which is signed by leading Mr. O’Brien: I have only a few seconds, and I want to clinicians, are clear: the NHS must invest in prevention, say something about the Whittington. We have invested not just treatment, and concentrate specialist expertise £30 million in it, and we want to ensure that the hospital for those who are ill in centres of excellence; people who continues to develop. I have seen no evidence that A and do not need to be treated in hospital should be treated E at Whittington should close. I would want to see a as close to home as possible; and clinicians should be at good clinical case—I have never seen one—for closing the heart of all decision making. Londoners endorsed it. We have invested money in the hospital, and we want the overall vision in an extensive consultation, with to ensure that it can continue to develop for the people more than 40,000 people attending meetings and roadshows, of London. We will ensure that any case is looked at and visiting the website. with care. I am sceptical about closing A and E at The letter has been signed by eminent clinicians such Whittington, and I would find it difficult to accept the as Adrian Newland, the professor of haematology at case for that to occur. 307WH 17 MARCH 2010 Rural Payments Agency 308WH

Rural Payments Agency Mr. Liddell-Grainger: Mr. Howarth, I stand in awe of you. Thank you for pulling me up on that. I apologise. I am not sure if the android was going wrong. 4pm Unfortunately, all the voices there are computer-generated. Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater) (Con): It is a I was told to press 1 for the nice-sounding robot who great privilege to be in Westminster Hall, talking about would tell me that I was being held in a long queue, to my concerns about the Rural Payments Agency. If I press 2 for a different voice repeating that five minutes were debating with the previous Minister, this would be later, to press 3 for a chorus of dreadful music—the sort a case of more vets, rather than more doctors. of thing that is heard at a crematorium just before the coffin slides behind the curtains—and to press 4 to have The Rural Payments Agency has been set up to make my head examined. I gave up after 56 minutes. If I was a life simpler for farmers by distributing European Union farmer, such a pointless waste of valuable time would allowances efficiently and fairly, but it does precisely the make my blood boil. The only consolation—the Minister opposite. Some farmers are being paid too much; some should be pleased—is that those voices did not keep too little; and, in many cases, some are paid absolutely interrupting the silence to tell me that my call was nothing at all. It has driven some of them to distraction valuable. For that, I thank them. But at no stage did I and others, I am afraid, to bankruptcy. I fear that a few manage to speak to a human being. may come dangerously close to ending their lives, because of the antics of a dreadful agency. My constituency There are probably some very talented, caring people relies on agriculture, which is the biggest industry that at the RPA—I am sure that there are; most organisations we have by some way, but it is always vulnerable to the have them—but people cannot get through to speak to weather, disease and, worst of all, stupid bureaucracy. them. The whole system is a conspiracy to drive us all mad. It seems to have been devised by a vicious The RPA came in with an overdose of stupidity and a Dr. Strangelove with some bizarre grudge against the typically dangerous political target that the Government farming community. were trying to hit. The aim of the new payments agency was to give a 30 per cent. boost to arable farmers, Here is another real-life reminder of RPA madness increasing their incomes and putting the screws on from Somerset. Yesterday, a man sat down to study the livestock farming instead. Survival is the name of the “Single Payment Scheme Booklet 2010”, which is not game for many livestock farms in south-west England. much of a title, I am afraid, but bestsellers do not come The agency now operates the most complicated system out of Departments. He got to page 46 where it says, to assess farm incomes that is run by the most inefficient helpfully, “How do I apply for the uplands transitional computer and managed by a team of blundering idiots. payment?” That is fair question for Exmoor. However, The cost of administrating the single farm payment is the answer was, “Sorry mate, you’ve got the wrong six times higher in England than in Scotland, because booklet. You need the ‘Uplands Transitional Payment the RPA chose the most absurd way of doing things. 2011 Explanatory Booklet’. Go to our website and A couple of weeks ago the Public Administration download it.” So off he clicked, into cyberspace, where Committee, of which I am a member, took evidence there are no recorded voices. He got as far as the Rural from the two clowns who are responsible: one is the Payment Agency download page, where a message permanent secretary at the Department for Environment, mysteriously appeared, saying, “No information on this Food and Rural Affairs, a lady answering to the name item is available”. How on earth can people fill in forms of Miss Ghosh, and the other is Mr. Cooper, the chief if the RPA will not tell them where they are? The executive of the Rural Payments Agency. They would computers at the RPA always seem to say no. I have a be out of place on any Somerset farm, because I doubt horrid suspicion why. whether either of them has wellies or whether, if even The civil servants at the old Ministry of Agriculture, they have, they have ever got them dirty.Their performance Fisheries and Food knew virtually nothing about computers. before the Committee was far from impressive. They I am in the same boat. Quill pens? Yes. In that respect, were like a comedy duo: Tommy Cooper and Golly they are the same as me. Combine harvesters? Probably. Ghosh. Golly giggled a lot and Tommy Cooper made a But computers? No. MAFF and DEFRA hired a global whole load of public money disappear—just like that. giant to advise and equip them for the digital age. They They preside over a festering dung heap of an agency, signed up with IBM. I have had good cause to mention but they continue to say that everything is getting IBM in the House before—in this Chamber, in fact—on better. They are so far out of touch that it is laughable. numerous occasions. IBM may be huge and it may be Unfortunately, the joke—it is no joke—is on my farmers. rich, but it ought to carry a health warning. It has been I intend to spell out how bad it is. involved in so many Government computer contracts Dealing with the RPA is like playing Russian roulette. that go wrong that it is embarrassing. It promises the The odds are dangerously weighted against you. Sooner earth and always charges the earth, but its products or later the system will do your head in. Before this rarely do what it says on the tin. debate, I checked what one Somerset farming expert IBM was hired to provide the back-up for MAFF told me, because I did not believe him. He said, “Ian, and DEFRA. When the Rural Payments Agency came pick up the telephone and dial 0845 6037777, then see along, IBM designed the mapping technology, too. what happens.” So I did. The recorded voice of a female Everything depends on having good maps in this game. android told me that I was now connected— Maps provide the proof that officials need before they can arrange farm payments. We all know that that is so: Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I understand that is the system. But the technology does not work that the hon. Gentleman has strong feelings about this, properly. Farmers found that there were errors; the but I think he should moderate some of his language. errors affected how much money they got; and things 309WH Rural Payments Agency17 MARCH 2010 Rural Payments Agency 310WH

[Mr. Liddell-Grainger] If Smiley’s people cannot handle the likes of IBM, how on earth can the minnows who run the RPA do so? became chaotic. Guess what—they start again from They are out of their depth when they try. As with every scratch. They are still compiling detailed mapping. The Department, they lacked the internal know-how. That system is wildly behind schedule. is not a criticism; it is a fact. They only thing that they Many other European Governments allow farmers contributed was a fancy name. The RPA wanted to call to alter their maps online, but not here. Why not? We do its new computer RITA. I do not know whether the not because we cannot, because IBM cannot make the Minister knew that. It is a great name, but little did it system work. know that RITA was destined to become a high- maintenance meter maid. Every time the RPA changed Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I recently met things to try and make the system work better, RITA representatives of my farming community, who have demanded more money. As RITA was built and run by also expressed their frustration at the manner in which big computer companies, that involved huge sums. the Rural Payments Agency functions. Running parallel Why do the big companies such as IBM always get to that is the unbelievable quantity of totally indigestible the business? The official answer is that only big companies complex legislation that drives them mad and does not have the finance if compensation is ever involved, but it achieve its objectives. Does my hon. Friend agree that never is. When a Government computer project collapses, the Europeanisation of the farming community and of they never take the supplier to court because they do agriculture, and the complexity and over-regulation that not want civil servants to give evidence and prove how goes with it, is one reason why the agricultural community useless the system was. There has never been a Government is in such distress? court case against any big supplier. They always settle quickly and quietly to avoid embarrassment, so the big Mr. Liddell-Grainger: I would never disagree with my firms end up keeping the money—our money. hon. Friend. He is right. The whole thing is a shambles. It came partly from Europe, but the vast majority is IBM’s friends at Accenture signed up with the RPA home-made mess. for a system costing no more than £76 million. Four The reality is far removed from the original glitzy years later, that price was £350 million. Last year, the promises made when the RPA launched. I quote a National Audit Office produced one of its most damning cheesy statement made long before the Minister was reports ever and said that the RPA’s system should be appointed: ditched. It revealed that the RPA shelled out £20 million in one year for 100 specialists from Accenture to fix the “An ambitious programme of business change to improve services to customers, reducing the cost base and opening new failed system. channels for rural communities.” I will simplify those gobsmacking sums for the sake When reading such language from any Department, of hon. Members. The RPA was paying £200,000 for one knows that there will be a bit of pie in the sky. I am each specialist, which is more than the cost of hiring sure that IBM did that. I can visualise them drooling in 100 Prime Ministers. Meanwhile, IBM was busy doing financial anticipation. Every time the Government get what it seems to do best—making a sow’s ear out of a involved, it is Christmas for IBM, because there is lots silk purse at our expense. It managed to lose data discs of extra work. containing every detail about every payment for 100,000 In 2003, the RPA hired Accenture. In 2004, Accenture farmers. A great deal of confidential information, including won IBM’s business partner leadership award. Both all their bank account details, was on those discs, 39 of companies swear by a second-rate system called SAP, which were lost, although 37 were eventually found, which we have encountered so many times that it is having been put on the wrong shelves at an IBM data almost getting exhausting. SAP is causing huge problems centre. That was done not by the Government, but by in Somerset, because IBM have done the same as it is IBM. Two discs vanished into thin air and have never doing to the Minister and the RPA. Southwest One, been found at the IBM data centre. Yet IBM is still in which we have to put up with down there, is a classic charge of the data, and Accenture is still employed. example of how not to do things, but it is on a tiny scale What on earth is going on? compared to what is happening. The public sector It is about time the fresh air of transparency was organisations that signed up are in a complete mess. allowed to blow into the secret world of public sector The IBM team that installed all the bits that did not computing. My party already has detailed policy work properly at Southwest One were the self-same commitments to stop those costly deals being made in people who installed all the bits that did not work the dark. Will the Minister consider doing the same? We properly at the RPA. The names are the same. Hon. are paying for those deals, and we deserve to see the Members may be beginning to get the picture, and it is a small print. Parliament, not just Departments, should sorry one. see it. If that happened, I suspect that the Conservatives Giant outfits such as IBM may easily pull the wool might even win the forthcoming election. over the eyes of naive councils and—dare I say it?—big Perhaps the Tommy Cooper of the RPA should also Departments. Let me remind the Chamber of some watch his back. It is not decent for a career civil servant up-to-date news. It emerged this week that a secret on a very generous salary—£145,000 a year—to globetrot national communication system called SCOPE, which to and from the Indian headquarters of those giant was intended to keep 007 and his mates in touch, has computer companies. Last year, he claimed £40,000 collapsed. That is nothing to do with the RPA, but the extra for travel and hotels, including business-class flights, principle is the same. Its system, which was designed by to Bangalore and five-star hotels. He also picked up an IBM, did not work and so far the Government have £11,000 bonus. I do not understand the purpose of failed to get a brass farthing back. In fact, they are still rewarding failure. I thought we had grown out of that paying. culture. 311WH Rural Payments Agency17 MARCH 2010 Rural Payments Agency 312WH

Bonus payments of £1.8 million have been paid to the The root of the problem is the creation of a body to top people at the RPA over the past five years. So while satisfy the requirements of the European Union’s legal my farmers were under pressure and going broke, the framework for farming. That is the agency’s raison RPA was living it up. That is not fair. It is a sorry story, d’être. The technical difficulties and absurdities to which and I am afraid that it is not over. The Minister may my hon. Friend referred have a life of their own. The have prepared soothing words and small apologies, and root and origin of the problem is the fact that the I suspect that he will want to say that things are getting agency is attempting to do something in the face of better. Fine, that is what the Government do. Well massive complications and over-regulation, which are things jolly well ought to be better; they cannot get causing deep anxiety to my constituents. much worse. The problem is serious. My farmers are deeply worried Up on Exmoor, a farming constituent is currently the about how the system operates, and they told me the subject of an RPA trial. Tommy Cooper’s team is other day that they could not understand why the conducting an experiment to try to put new codes into Ministry is described as the Department for Environment, the computers, supposedly to make life easier. It has Food and Rural Affairs when “agriculture” is the most re-recorded my constituent’s farm and managed to lose appropriate word to use in the nomenclature of a all his old codes, so he risks not being paid because the Department with responsibilities to the farmers of this computer no longer recognises him as a farmer. Welcome country. Why can we not simply return to describing the to the continuing chaos of the RPA, which will drop Department as a Ministry of agriculture, so that farmers people in it, drop them in it again, and then drop them can have confidence that the Government are working in it yet again. The situation is so bad and so chronically for them and for the country at large? inefficient that the European Union fined the agency £75 million, and I am afraid that that is a bill that we pick up. 4.19 pm The way in which the RPA works makes the mafia The Minister of State, Department for Environment, look honest. It is going wrong too often. It never Food and Rural Affairs (Jim Fitzpatrick): It is a pleasure supplies calculations or background information. It to see you presiding in the Chair this afternoon, tries to claw back money and sends out threatening Mr. Howarth. I hope it is in order for me to express my letters, but it still provides no explanation to the farmers appreciation of your consideration yesterday, when I of west Somerset and Bridgewater. They were told that was not feeling quite as well as I do today. they would receive the paperwork after they had paid I congratulate the hon. Member for Bridgwater up and that, if they did not pay up, they would not (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) on securing the debate. I welcome receive subsidies. Those are the tactics of a mob, not a the opportunity to respond to the issues raised, and to Government agency. explain our work to build on the improvements of the The RPA has been investigated by the National Audit past few years, as the Rural Payments Agency aims to Office, the Select Committee on Public Accounts, the provide a more consistent, reliable and cost-effective Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural service. Affairs, the ombudsman and now the Select Committee In many ways the RPA has an unenviable task. The on Public Administration. Why does no one have a payments that it makes are welcomed by recipients, but good word to say about it? It has made, and is still there can be scepticism about the accompanying European making, the lives of some of my farmers almost impossible. Union rules and regulations. Those rules have laudable That must stop. I do not want to hear another rendition aims—the control of public funds, safeguarding the of “Things can only get better”. We have just about had environment and protecting public and animal health—but enough. their practical application can be seen as draconian or disproportionate. Against that background, and given 4.16 pm the problems experienced with the introduction of the Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con) rose— single payment scheme or SPS in 2005, it is no surprise that strong emotions are generated by the agency’s Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I take it activities, as was articulated by the hon. Gentleman at that the hon. Gentleman has the authority of the hon. the beginning of his contribution. However, I do not Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) to speak. intend to dwell on the events of 2005 and 2006. That debate has been held on a number of previous occasions. Mr. Cash: I have indeed. I spoke to my hon. Friend The main point is that we learn the right lessons from the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) earlier, that experience and take forward the recommendations and I hope that the Minister will not mind if I make a of various reports, including those of the Select Committee brief contribution. on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Public I have the gravest reservations about the Rural Payments Accounts Committee. Agency because of the experience of my constituents. I In each scheme since 2005, the agency has met its need not repeat the catalogue that my hon. Friend formal targets and avoided late payment penalties. Under recited, because it is on the record. He described admirably the 2009 scheme, 86,500 farmers received some £1.31 billion the technical difficulties and the enormous number of within two days of the payment window opening on bodies that have looked into the agency and found it 1 December. The agency met its target to make 90 per wanting. However, the buck does not stop with the cent. of payments on 24 February, some five weeks agency. I believe strongly that the Government have a ahead of schedule and three months earlier than had direct responsibility, as my hon. Friend clearly indicated; been achieved two years previously. Such an improvement that is why the Minister is here to answer on behalf of to the payment timetable inevitably creates an increased the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. focus on the position of those farmers who remain to be 313WH Rural Payments Agency17 MARCH 2010 Rural Payments Agency 314WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] spot in order to help avoid common errors causing problems at a later stage. Those staff will also offer help paid. There are around 7,500 such cases, some of which in completing the application form online. For the first involve complex issues such as probate, business partnership time, SPS specialists from the RPA will work with the changes and domestic disputes. As hon. Members Farmers Weekly Interactive website on a special SPS representing the relevant constituencies can testify, some forum to answer questions posed online by farmers and of the outstanding cases are also connected to specific agents. remote sensing checks, which affect groups of farmers Looking further ahead, I announced last September in particular locations. that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural In all cases, I can assure all concerned that the RPA is Affairs would undertake a review of the RPA to ensure working hard to complete the necessary checks and to that the agency was ready to react to changes arising release payments as soon as possible. Arrangements are from future common agricultural policy reforms. The also in place to deal with genuine hardship cases that review is to consider the RPA’s financial and operational arise before full payments are possible. However, experience processes and to identify where the RPA might be able tells us that partial payments lead to further problems to make improvements and efficiencies. The information down the line and are generally to be avoided for that gathered will also be helpful in responding to the reason. Improvements in payment performance are reflected recommendations of the recent reports—referred to in customer survey results. Two years ago, those asked earlier by the hon. Member for Bridgwater—by the about their overall level of satisfaction with the agency National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, rated it 6.2 out of 10 on average; that figure has now in particular on tackling outstanding data quality and risen to 7.4. overpayment issues, on IT improvements and on driving Inevitably, challenges remain. Completion of the map down processing costs. upgrade is one of those. The data currently used are The review is not scheduled to be completed until the based on Ordnance Survey’s 2001 MasterMap information, end of the month, and it is too early to give any details which is out of date and does not reflect the true on the findings. However, our intention is to report position on the ground. those findings to the House in due course. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said to the National Mr. Cash: Will the Minister give way? Farmers Union annual general meeting last month, at that point we will sit down with farmers’ representatives Jim Fitzpatrick: I am sorry; if I get to the end of what and listen to their specific ideas about what more can be I have to say, I shall be happy to give way to the hon. done. Gentleman, but he has already taken some of the time However, I can confirm that we will not introduce a that I had anticipated having. If he will allow me, I shall minimum payment amount, which is what some have get through my remarks and see how much time is left called for. The idea that that would save millions of before 4.30. pounds conveniently ignores, first, the fact that small Given EU requirements to use the most recent mapping claims require relatively little processing effort—the larger information available, no change was not an option. claims push up the average processing costs—and, secondly, The exercise has been a major logistical one involving the fact that the claims would still need to be processed over 2 million land parcels. The work was planned to determine whether the value exceeded the given carefully, with a trial, then a pilot of 1,000 farmers and figure. What we have done for the 2010 scheme, after a gradual roll-out of the first set of map packs. All consultation and with the full support of the NFU and 107,000-plus first maps have now been sent, with special others, is introduce a minimum claim area of 1 hectare. arrangements in place for those subject to an inspection Those claims can then be filtered on receipt at the RPA. during 2009. In line with expectations, a little more than I would like to register my appreciation of farmers’ 50,000 people have requested amendments, and more continued patience as the agency continues consistently than 70 per cent. of those have had a revised set of to raise its performance to the levels that we all want to maps provided. I have had close involvement in the see. I extend that appreciation to farmers’ representatives; exercise and have had weekly conversations or meetings I have met the heads of the NFU, the Country Land with the RPA chief executive to track progress. The and Business Association or CLA, and the Tenant exercise has not all been plain sailing, and it is by no Farmers Association on a number of occasions to discuss means complete, but I hope that all those concerned progress, and I have always found them constructive in would acknowledge that the process has been considerably their criticisms. We have another meeting scheduled for smoother than the last mapping exercise in 2005. next week. The remaining maps are now being processed and On the statistics, in 2007, 75 per cent. of payments by checked, and will be returned to farmers over the coming value had been made by 22 February. In 2008, that weeks. Tailored advice is being provided to those who percentage of payments had been made by 22 January, will complete the 2010 application form over the coming and in 2009 it was made by 17 December. In 2007, weeks and who have yet to be provided with revised 90 per cent. of the payments by value had been made by maps. To improve customer service more generally for 21 May; in 2008, that was done by 16 March, and in the 2010 scheme, the agency is taking a number of 2009 by 24 February. The hon. Member for Bridgwater additional steps. Most significantly, this year there is a said that no progress had been made, but those statistics full SPS online service for the first time. All farmers will clearly demonstrate year-on-year progress. I am not in be able to apply online for an easier, quicker and reassuring denial, and I am not for a second saying that further service, which is free to use. Additional drop-in centres improvements are not possible, but the agency is doing will be opened, where farmers can deposit their claims everything that it possibly can to improve the situation, with RPA staff who will perform a basic check on the and DEFRA is doing the same. 315WH Rural Payments Agency 17 MARCH 2010 316WH

Mr. Cash: Will the Minister answer my question, if Private Rented Sector (Durham) he can, or give some indication of whether the Department is thinking of changing its name from DEFRA to 4.30 pm something more along the lines of “the Ministry of Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): agriculture”? That concern is strongly felt by the farming It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, community. Mr. Howarth. Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable I speak this afternoon about an issue that is extremely point, which I have heard articulated in different visits important to my constituency. When I was elected in to agricultural communities. Clearly, any future Government 2005, many residents quickly came to me to say that would always consider such a point when ensuring that they were very concerned about the lack of balance in the title of each Department reflects its interests. A split our local community and the fact that more and more in the references came about when the Department of of the city was being taken over by private rented Energy and Climate Change was created, taking some housing. That was a problem because the housing was of DEFRA’s old responsibilities. DEFRA is clearly empty for a huge part of the year and local residents felt much more focused on agriculture, because it has a it was destroying our sense of local community. much more specific reference. In response to residents’ concerns, I set up a local At some point in the future, whether the Labour group called the balanced and sustainable communities party or the hon. Gentleman’s party is returned after a forum, which had representatives from the local council, general election, whoever is the Prime Minister might residents’ groups, the university and the police, to see well want to review the Departments and ensure that whether we could find a way forward. We quickly the structure is as efficient as possible for the delivery of started to lobby the local council to adopt policies to services to communities. Such a review would always give us a greater mix of housing in the city centre. That take on board the names of the organisations, although included asking the council to have planning policies to such changes always have a cost, not least because of promote family housing, to stop giving planning permission letterheads, e-mail addresses and the rest of it. However, to so many apartment blocks, to use selective and/or I understand that many in agriculture would like to see additional licensing to control better the private rented “agriculture” back in the departmental title, but we sector and, overall, to have a strong policy in favour of have no plans to change at the moment. We believe that affordability. Unfortunately, all those requests fell on we fairly reflect the issues and the matters of concern to deaf ears. The local Liberal Democrat council at the agriculture. We are certainly doing our best to ensure time simply did not want to hear us and certainly did that they are dealt with as efficiently as possible. not want to respond to the points that we were making. In addition to setting up the local group, which was In conclusion, there is more to do, and the RPA and pressing for local solutions, I decided that we probably DEFRA will do all that they can to ensure further needed a change in legislation if we were really to tackle progress. the issue facing us, so I set up in Parliament the all-party group on balanced and sustainable communities. We campaigned particularly on changing legislation with regard to planning permission for houses in multiple occupation and when the trigger for planning permission for an HMO comes into being, and with regard to further powers to register private landlords. I emphasise that we were not anti the private rented sector. Indeed, it was always our view, and it remains my view, that responsible landlords have nothing to fear from additional regulation, because responsible landlords generally manage their properties very well. They have nothing whatever to worry about from additional regulation. It is the landlords who do not manage their properties well and who need to improve the service they are offering their tenants who are concerned about greater regulation. There was thus a lot of local and parliamentary activity designed to get the issue on the agenda. One of our early strategies was to hold an Adjournment debate in this very Chamber. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham), who is now Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, was then arguing alongside me. He, my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) and I were arguing that a change was needed in the legislation. I am delighted that today I can stand here and congratulate and thank the Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government who is in the Chamber today. They all listened to what was being said by the all-party 317WH Private Rented Sector (Durham)17 MARCH 2010 Private Rented Sector (Durham) 318WH

[Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods] As I said earlier, between 2003 and 2009 there was the council’s complete non-implementation of policies on group, set up a review of the private rented sector and getting affordable housing back in the city centre, and of HMO licensing and came back with a set of proposals there were no policies whatever on family housing or that have been turned into new statutory instruments mixed communities. If we are to take advantage of the and other new legislation relating to HMO planning new legislation, we need a whole set of additional permission and the registration of the private rented policies, primarily put forward and implemented by the sector. local council, to enable changes to the private rented That legislation is very important because it captures sector to take effect. exactly what we wanted it to do. In cities such as We need the council to engage proactively with the Durham, most of the HMOs are not huge properties. local community in deciding what sort of mix it wants The previous legislation that required only houses or in its communities. I can report that that has already homes with more than six people to apply for planning begun. Council and planning officers have started a permission meant that most of the HMOs were not series of meetings with local residents about how to covered, because most of the houses in Durham are change the city in a way that reflects their concerns. The small terraces that do not accommodate six or more council is also consulting on what more conservation people, or they are ex-council or ex-social rented sector area policies should achieve, and how they could better housing and also not very big. Therefore the change in reflect Durham’s heritage, ensuring that future development, legislation whereby it is up to six people suits us very including any housing development in the city centre, is well. I am also very pleased that the Government have appropriate and adds to and enhances the city’s wonderful decided to go ahead with registering all private sector heritage. landlords. That gives us two important tools to better Residents are asking for a city centre regeneration manage private renting in our area. plan that has new housing at its core. Local residents That is an important step forward, but we still have a are not against new housing or redevelopment, but they problem, which is how we deal with the fact that there want it to be of good quality, and they want it to bring are currently too many private rented houses in a particular mix into the community. They want policies that, as far area. We still require policies that will help us to bring as possible, do not bring more luxury apartments into back properties from the private rented sector to provide the city centre, especially as people have such trouble family houses in order to get a better mix in our selling and renting them at the moment. communities. We still have the concentration problem. We hope that the local council can buy back some of In addition to new affordable and family housing, the properties, and one of my questions for the Minister people want better retail provision. That has suffered is whether consideration could be given to a fund that over the last few years, and people want a vibrant retail would enable registered social landlords or the council sector. They also want the council to make more of the to start to buy back properties, especially now, when skills that the university brings to the city centre, to market rates are relatively low. bring about regeneration not only of the physical environment but of our economic environment, based I also want better regulation of the private rented on knowledge and a skills transfer between the university sector. That means that the local council will have to and the industrial sector. We absolutely need more of adopt and implement the statutory instruments that are that. There is pressure on the university to build more now in place, but it will have to do more. It will have to student accommodation, using some of the available clamp down on antisocial behaviour and put in place land for purpose-built student accommodation to relieve community development policies, because much of what housing pressure on the city centre, and to free up has been lost with the spread of the private rented accommodation so that it can be transferred back to the sector is community spirit and community cohesion. social rented sector or the council sector. In Durham, the problems of the private rented sector are exacerbated by some additional policies—or lack of People want a set of cultural activities that go beyond policy. The first issue is a lack of proper conservation drinking and that aspect of the night-time economy. area policies in the city centre, which has been a long- That does not mean that they, or I, are against a standing problem with previous councils of a mixture night-time economy in Durham, but we are arguing for of political cultures. What we need now is a strong set of balance; local residents, who are often on the receiving conservation area policies from the new council that end of the activities of those who have had too much to will help us to tackle some of the problems associated drink, should be able to go out for the night and enjoy with private renting. The most obvious one is the themselves. The view of residents, which I share, is that predominance of “To Let” boards in the city centre. A those activities are out of balance at the moment, and number of people will know that Durham is a very that a wider range of activities should be on offer. beautiful city. It has a wonderful heritage, but that The Government have gone a long way to addressing heritage is being blighted by the proliferation of “To the concerns of the all-party group on balanced and Let” boards in the city centre. They go up in October or sustainable communities, and should be applauded for November and stay until February or March. It is the legislation they have introduced. We now have significant unsightly and upsets the local population. tools to tackle the concentration and spread of private There is also too lax an attitude to the licensing of renting throughout the city centre. The legislation needs pubs and clubs locally, which leads to the concentration to be implemented by the county council, but it must of a particular type of activity in the city centre. done by implementing the policies in the wider framework Accompanying that is lack of attention to the concerns of regenerating the city centre, not only economically raised by city centre residents, not only about their and in its built environment but culturally. Everyone problems with private renting but about the wider society who lives in the city would thus have a much better in which private renting operates. quality of life. 319WH Private Rented Sector (Durham)17 MARCH 2010 Private Rented Sector (Durham) 320WH

4.45 pm As my hon. Friend knows, local authorities are already under a statutory duty to license HMOs. Some 321 licences The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for have been issued in County Durham since the scheme Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It came into being. Many of them are in the city and are is a great pleasure, Mr. Howarth, to serve under your the result of my hon. Friend’s work. Local authorities chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member also have the discretion to extend licensing to those for City of Durham (Dr. Blackman-Woods) on securing HMOs that do not meet the mandatory HMO licensing this debate. As she said, she led a similar debate in 2007. requirements. On 27 January, we published a short My hon. Friend has made herself an expert on the consultation, seeking views on possible changes to the subject of the private rented sector. She promised her procedures for establishing discretionary schemes under constituents that she would work hard to make progress the Housing Act 2004 for licensing landlords. The options in tackling the problems associated with that sector on which we have consulted include introducing a general when she was first elected, and she has been as good as consent that would enable local authorities to introduce her word. She has kept that promise and worked tirelessly discretionary licensing schemes without having to seek to lobby Ministers on the need for a change in approach. the Secretary of State’s specific approval. My hon. Friend established the all-party group on I want to congratulate my hon. Friend on the leadership balanced and sustainable communities, which has become that she has shown in her community. We are keen to one of the most active and successful of such groups. ensure that local authorities such as Durham county Her work is a fantastic example of what Members of council see provisions such as the licensing of HMOs Parliament can do if they listen to local people, understand under the 2004 Act, as well as other voluntary initiatives, the concerns of the community, bring those concerns to such as landlord accreditation schemes, as a way of the Government’s attention and fight and lobby for developing a partnership with good landlords in their change. She should be congratulated on everything that area, and I hope that the local authority will listen to she has done. As a result of her work, she can justifiably her views and respond to the positive lead that she has claim to have changed legislation on the private rented taken in her community. sector. She has achieved more for her constituency in We encourage all local authorities to work closely one Parliament than many MPs manage in their careers. with university student unions, local landlord organisations, residents’ groups and the police to address the issues I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the that can arise. The measures that we announced on opportunity to set out what the Government are doing 3 February include a national register of landlords, the to meet the concerns that she has expressed. As she regulation of letting and managing agents, mandatory said, private rented housing is essential to maintaining a written tenancy agreements and extending the protections mixed community. A strong and well functioning private of assured shorthold tenancies to a wider range of rented sector is a vital component of any housing tenants and local lettings agencies. market, and the recent downturn has further highlighted its importance, both in supporting housing growth and Dr. Blackman-Woods: Does the Minister agree that in providing homes for young people just starting out the additional measures that the Government have on an independent life. introduced protect tenants as well as local residents and that they should be supported on those grounds as well? The sector also houses some of the 13,000-plus young Such measures seek to strengthen our tenant legislation, people studying at the ancient and distinguished Durham too. university, which my hon. Friend represents. Students make a substantial contribution to communities. They Mr. Austin: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ensuring help to keep communities alive by helping to sustain that tenants get a better deal is a key part of building a and regenerate them. However, some of the challenges stronger private rented sector, which we need in this of private rented housing are particularly acute in areas country. That is in no small part due to the campaigning with high a concentration of students living in certain work that she has undertaken. parts of university towns and cities. We consulted on all the measures that I listed in the summer. They received a positive response, and we Houses in multiple occupation also make an important intend to legislate on them at the earliest opportunity. contribution to the private rented sector. However, high The regulatory elements of that package will help, but concentrations of HMOs have raised local problems in we want to go further and embed more support into the some towns and cities, including those with large numbers system now. To that end, we have announced three of students. That is often characterised as the areas for immediate work. There will be a private sector studentification of an area. The presence of a few tenants’ helpline, new research to explore how to capture unprofessional private landlords with badly managed and disseminate consumer feedback and new scope and properties in poor condition can increase the likelihood support for tenants’ voice. of tenants such as students experiencing health and safety risks. I should like to deal with a couple of the points that my hon. Friend raised. She asked whether it was possible We want to support the private rented sector in all the for us to consider greater support for local authorities roles that it performs. The packages of measures that to buy back homes. She will be aware that it is possible we announced on 27 January and 3 February 2010 will for registered social landlords to do that at the moment. do precisely that. On 27 January, we announced that we We encourage local authorities to work closely with had decided to change the planning rules by introducing RSLs. Provisions are in place for local authorities to a specific definition of a HMO. The rule changes will take over the management of poorly run properties. mean that, from 6 April 2010, any material change of Empty dwelling management orders and other management use from a dwelling house to an HMO will require orders can be used to ensure that those homes are not specific consent from the local planning authority. causing problems for the wider community. 321WH Private Rented Sector (Durham)17 MARCH 2010 Private Rented Sector (Durham) 322WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] displayed in a particular area, especially a conservation area? I have been arguing with my local authority about My hon. Friend also asked about estate agents’ boards. that issue. Like other advertisements, they are subject to planning rules. Briefly, class 3A of the Town and Country Planning Mr. Austin: Such powers exist, but before a direction (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007, is made under regulation 7, the local planning authority which replaced the 1992 regulations, gives deemed consent would need to convince the Secretary of State that it for advertisement boards to be displayed by firms such would improve visual amenity and that there is no other as estate agents, chartered surveyors, auctioneers and way of effectively controlling the display of estate agents’ valuers to advertise land or premises for sale or to let. boards. If my hon. Friend wants to know more about Only one board for a dwelling may be displayed, and that, I would be happy to arrange for her to meet there are strict limits on its size. The board must be officials in our Department, so that she can discuss removed not later than 14 days after completion of the exactly how the procedure works. sale or grant of the tenancy. Local planning authorities In conclusion, may I reiterate my thanks to my hon. have the normal planning powers to enforce the Friend for initiating this debate and to the all-party advertisement rules if they consider it necessary. Local parliamentary balanced and sustainable communities authorities may also apply to the Secretary of State for group for its helpful contribution to tackling private a direction restricting deemed consent of estate agents’ sector housing issues? I hope that the responses that I boards in a particular area. Directions have recently have outlined will go a long way towards addressing the been given in Hastings, Leeds and Charnwood. issues that she has identified, and I look forward to working both with her and the all-party group again. Question put and agreed to. Dr. Blackman-Woods: I thank the Minister for giving way again; he is being very generous. Is he saying that 4.55 pm local authorities have the power to stop boards being Sitting adjourned. 59WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS

children and young people. They are making a positive Written Ministerial difference to so many children and young people’s lives every day. Statements We are also publishing today a revised version of “Working Together to Safeguard Children”. This is the statutory guidance used by all those who work with Wednesday 17 March 2010 children, young people, families and their carers. It implements many of Lord Laming’s recommendations and also takes account of a consultation exercise that TREASURY ran from December 2009 to February 2010. The revised guidance strengthens the requirements relating to the publication of serious case review (SCR) executive Turks and Caicos Islands (Counter-Terrorism) summaries, including requiring local safeguarding children boards (LSCBs) to make sure that executive summaries accurately reflect the full overview report and include: The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah information about the review process; McCarthy-Fry): An Order in Council in respect of the Turks and Caicos Islands has been made today. It key issues arising from the case; comes into force on 18 March 2010. the recommendations; and The Order in Council provides new powers for the the action plan. Governor of the Turks and Caicos Islands to implement These requirements, made explicit in a template setting a graduated range of financial restrictions in response out a recommended format for SCR executive summaries, to certain risks to the interests of the Turks and Caicos will build on the action which we have already taken to Islands or the United Kingdom. The risks it addresses further strengthen SCRs. Today’s revised guidance also are those posed by money laundering, terrorist financing, builds on responses from experts in child protection and the proliferation of chemical, biological, radiological such as the NSPCC and Barnado’s. and nuclear weapons. Any directions given under the We will be working with stakeholders in the next few Order will be made by the Governor of the Islands. months to produce a short practitioner guide to complement The powers replicate those in schedule 7 to the Counter- “Working Together”. Terrorism Act 2008 which apply to the United Kingdom. The Order in Council has been made in response to a We are also publishing today for consultation “Local request by the Turks and Caicos Islands. Safeguarding Children Boards—Practice Guidance” and the Government’s response to the “Working Together to Safeguard Children” consultation. Also today, Sir Roger Singleton, the Government’s CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES first chief adviser on the safety of children, has produced his first independent annual report to Parliament on Laming Report (Government Response) progress in safeguarding. I have written today to Sir Roger thanking him for his advice and support over the past year which has helped to shape and strengthen The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and safeguarding policy across many areas. His report recognises Families (Ed Balls): My right hon. Friends the Secretaries the progress made but it also challenges us to go further of State for Justice and for Health, the Home Secretary in respect of resources, working closely with partners, and I are today publishing “The Government’s Response learning from serious case reviews and supporting practice to Lord Laming: One Year On”, an update on progress improvement. We welcome his report and look forward on implementing the Government’s action plan in response to working with him in the year ahead to tackle the to Lord Laming’s report, “The Protection of Children issues he identifies, in partnership with the national in England: A Progress Report” published in March safeguarding delivery unit and the many safeguarding 2009 and a description of the priorities for the year stakeholders, service managers and front-line practitioners ahead. who are equally committed to making a difference for children, young people, families and carers. A great deal has been achieved. Over 50,000 people have registered for information on how to become a One of the issues identified in his report is the increase social worker in response to our national recruitment in demand that many children’s services are experiencing, campaign. The action on health visiting programme has especially children’s social care. As a first step in responding raised the profile of this important profession and to that, today we are announcing a new local social introduced new requirements to monitor their numbers work improvement fund of £23 million. This can be and case loads. There has also been significant focus used flexibly by local authorities and their partners to and challenge on arrangements for child safeguarding put in place local solutions which help to reduce pressure across the NHS over the last year. A new police child at the front line and to build capacity for earlier support protection delivery plan has also been commissioned and intervention. which will set out recommendations for future This commitment of new funding sits alongside “Building improvements to police capability and practice to enhance a Safe and Confident Future: Implementing the the delivery of child protection within forces. Recommendations of the Social Work Task Force” The report also pays tribute to the many thousands which we are also publishing today. This sets out our of social workers, teachers, police officers, doctors, nurses, long-term and ambitious programme of reform for health visitors and many others who support and protect social work. 61WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS

Keeping children safe is our highest priority. I am Confident Future: Implementing the Recommendations committed to working across Government and with our of the Social Work Task Force”. In December 2009, the national and local partners to do all we can to support, social work taskforce made 15 focused recommendations and where appropriate to challenge, with the aim of for the fundamental reform of the system that supports delivering the best possible outcomes for children and social workers in England. This publication sets out young people. how the Government are working with employers, higher We are placing a copy of the above documents in the education institutions, the profession itself and people Libraries of both Houses. For more information, please who use social work services to put those recommendations visit: www.dcsf.gov.uk/nsdu and www.dcsf.gov.uk/swrb. into effect. Every day high-quality social work makes a big difference, not only to the safety, prospects and life chances of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE individuals, but also to the stability and equality of our society. It is therefore essential that the right support and systems are in place to enable social workers to 2009 Annual Report on Human Rights practise to the highest professional standards. “Building a Safe and Confident Future” sets out a The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth route map for how the taskforce’s recommendations Affairs (David Miliband): The Foreign and Commonwealth will be achieved over the next five to 10 years. Some of Office 2009 annual report on human rights will be the changes recommended by the taskforce can and published at 5 pm. The report explains the Government’s must make a difference immediately. Other taskforce activities and policies to address human rights challenges recommendations will require extensive consultation overseas in the period 1 January to 31 December 2009 and require time to put in place. “Building a Safe and Confident Future” sets out the anticipated time scales The report will be laid before Parliament this afternoon for implementing all of these recommendations, including: and copies will be made available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office in the House of Lords. A copy of work already under way in establishing the independent College of Social Work with the recruitment process for an interim the report is also available on the Foreign and chair to begin this month and the expectation that the college Commonwealth Office website: www.fco.gov.uk. I will be a fully functioning independent organisation by April commend the report to the House. 2011; the expectation that over the coming year all social worker employers will work with their staff to conduct a local “health FCO Services (Performance Targets) check” of the support they have in place, and to take action for improvement where necessary; The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): My noble improvements to initial social worker education with strengthened entry requirements to the social work degree; Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead) reviews of the degree curriculum, bursary arrangement and the has made the following written ministerial statement: quality and quantity of practice placements, and more transparent and improved regulation of higher education providers; FCO Services operates as a trading fund of the FCO. I have set the following performance targets for 2010-11: consultation and assessment of options and impact for the introduction of the recommended assessed year in employment An in-year surplus before interest and tax of at least £4 million. and licence to practise; and A return on capital employed of at least 3.5 per cent. (weighted average). consultation on a new framework for continuing professional development in social work beginning in summer 2010 with the Wider market revenue growth of 10 per cent. on that achieved framework to be phased in from 2011. in 2009-10. A contribution to the FCO’s comprehensive spending review The reform programme will require sustained commitments by delivering £12 million of cumulative cash commitment from all partners over a number of years. savings over the three years 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. To establish the firmest possible foundation for this, A utilisation rate for revenue earning staff of at least 76 per “Building a Safe and Confident Future” is accompanied cent. by a commitment to Government investment of more A customer satisfaction rating of at least 85 per cent. satisfied than £200 million in 2010-11. This investment is additional or very satisfied. to core funding for social work in higher education, FCO Services will report to Parliament on its success local government and the NHS. It will be used to against these targets through its annual report for 2010-11. support recruitment, student bursaries and practice placements, work force development, improvement of IT in children’s services and supporting employers to remodel services. HEALTH In recognition of particular pressures on local authority children’s services, £23 million of Government’s Social Work Task Force £200 million investment in social work next year will go directly to LAs to put in place local solutions which help to reduce pressure on front-line social workers and The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): will build capacity for reform and improvement. Local With my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for authorities will be expected to consult with social workers Children, Schools and Families, and Business, Innovation and local safeguarding partners in deciding how to use and Skills, I am publishing today “Building a Safe and it. This will be accompanied by a £15 million capital 63WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS grant from DCSF to local authorities for the improvement reorganisation and transformation that that was set out of information technology systems, including the Integrated in my earlier statement on 22 October 2009, Official Children’s System. Report, columns 76-77WS. We are placing a copy of “Building a Safe and Land Registry believes that its decisions will help Confident Future: Implementing the Recommendations create an organisation that can meet the challenges of a of the Social Work Task Force” in the Library and developing property market, that can live within its copies are available for hon. Members from the Vote means and that can continue to provide an outstanding Office. service to its customers. Land Registry has been involved in detailed discussions HOME DEPARTMENT with its staff and their union representatives covering all the proposals since October and held a public consultation on the proposals to close five offices. Over Police National Database Code of Practice 350 responses were received to the public consultation and Land Registry has made changes as a result. In The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the addition, almost 600 members of the public and businesses Home Department (Meg Hillier): My right hon. Friend took part in questionnaire surveys aimed at assessing the Home Secretary today has laid before the House a the impact of the proposed office closures, and of these, statutory code of practice on the operation and use of over 100 were engaged in follow-up telephone surveys the Police National Database (PND). The code of practice and a further 36 business customers in focus groups. is made under section 39A of the Police Act 1996, Land Registry has recognised particular concerns following a public consultation exercise which finished that the initial proposals could have left them with no at the beginning of February 2010. presence in the south east of England (with the future The PND will, for the first time, enable the police of its head office being uncertain at that time). This service in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, would have meant that access to certain services that are and other law enforcement bodies that support public currently provided face-to-face would have been restricted protection, to share, access and search existing local in this area. intelligence and operational information on a national In response to those concerns, Land Registry will basis. The PND fulfils one of the key recommendations now keep open their offices at Croydon and Peterborough. of Sir Michael Bichard’s inquiry into the Soham murders Land Registry will now only be closing two offices and will replace the interim information-sharing solution completely in 2011, those at Stevenage and Tunbridge we put in place in 2005, the IMPACT nominal index. Wells. In addition, the main Portsmouth office will close The PND, which is due to be launched in May 2010, by 28 February 2011. Land Registry does, however, will provide forces with immediate access to up-to-date intend to retain a reduced presence in Portsmouth, information from across the service. It will bring together co-located with Portsmouth city council, until 31 March existing data from five operational areas of policing— 2013. Land Registry has decided upon this approach in custody, crime, intelligence, child abuse and domestic recognition of representations that, due to particular abuse—in to one central system. It will help the police local circumstances, a longer period of transition was to prevent and detect crime, with a focus on safeguarding desirable. children and vulnerable people, countering terrorism, and preventing and disrupting serious and organised Land Registry will close one of its offices in Plymouth, crime. relocating the staff affected to its other main building in The purpose of the code of practice is to promote the city. consistent and lawful use of the PND. Chief police The conclusion of the head office review has resulted officers will have to have regard to the code and the in a decision to co-locate this with the Croydon local supporting guidance when adopting practices for the office. Discussions will be now held with staff and their use of the PND and the information obtained from it. unions, and work will be done to ensure that customers This will help to ensure that such information is used using the contact centre at Lincoln’s Inn Fields are effectively for policing purposes. alerted to the changes. The PND will not hold new information—it will Land Registry’s board also recognises that the prospect store intelligence and other information held on local of a further two office closures beyond 2011 was creating force systems—but there will be concerns about how particular uncertainty. Therefore, further staff reductions this information is used. The code of practice is one of beyond 2011 will be achieved as far as possible through a number of important safeguards that will help to targeted voluntary redundancy severance, rather than prevent misuse of the new system. office closures. Copies of the code of practice will be made available in the Vote Office. A combination of office closures and voluntary severance means Land Registry will reduce by 1400 staff, to 4600 by 2011. Additional voluntary severance between 2011 JUSTICE and 2014 should result in a further reduction to 3800. The staff numbers used here are on a full-time equivalent Land Registry (FTE) basis. The total number of staff in post, taking account of part-time working etc, is estimated at just over 5,000 by the end of 2011, and 4,200 by the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael end of 2014. This decision means that a third less Wills): Land Registry is announcing today the conclusions staff will be facing compulsory redundancy than was of its consultations on the five-year programme of originally envisaged. 65WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS

The proposals regarding the outsourcing of certain re-appointments have been conducted in accordance support functions have been confirmed. with the Office of the Commissioner for Public The decisions announced today retain a greater office Appointments code of practice for ministerial appointments presence than the original proposals and rely more on to public bodies. the use of voluntary redundancies, but are still expected to save around £500 million over 10 years. NORTHERN IRELAND Final decisions, following consultation, should mitigate significantly the impact on Land Registry’s loyal and hard-working staff. There will be more opportunities Devolution (Policing and Justice) for staff to apply for voluntary severance. For those facing compulsory redundancy, there will be more opportunities for re-deployment in Land Registry or to The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul other Government Departments, and a comprehensive Goggins): On 9 March 2010 the Northern Ireland Assembly support package is being put in place—including voted, on a cross-community basis, to request the devolution outplacement support, opportunities for further education of matters relating to policing and justice. The legislation and financial advice. required to give effect to the transfer of these powers will be debated in the House next week. Land Registry believes that the decisions will allow it to make far better use of its buildings and to create To underpin the practical arrangements relating to significant efficiency savings. policing and justice post-devolution to the Northern Ireland Assembly, several documents have been developed Building as robust and sustainable an organisation as or revised. These documents are, in summary: possible will allow Land Registry to be proactive rather than passive in the face of market changes and to be in A Protocol on National Security good shape for a recovery in the property market. Land The national security protocol sets out how the Secretary Registry will be formulating a clear vision and strategic of State and the Justice Minister will work together plan of delivery over the coming months to position where there is an interface between the Justice Minister’s itself for the future. Land Registry will continue to responsibilities for policing and justice and the Secretary work to meet the needs of its customers and harness of State’s statutory responsibility for national security. technology to build services around those needs. Concordats on Judicial Independence and on Prosecutorial The Lord Chancellor also approved changes to Land Independence Registry’s governance arrangements that will result in a Concordats are non-legally binding agreements between new Land Registry board, chaired by a non-executive the UK Government and the devolved Administration. chairman and with more non-executive directors. The Both of these documents underscore the principles of new arrangements will strengthen Land Registry’s corporate judicial and prosecutorial independence enshrined in governance and ensure that the actions of the chief land legislation, and reflect the constitutional position that registrar and his management team are subject to there should be a clear separation between the executive appropriate scrutiny. arm of Government and the administration of the law. Land Registry have today published “Land Registry’s Intergovernmental Agreements on Criminal Justice Accelerated Transformation Programme: Consultation Co-operation and on Police Co-operation Responses Report”, copies of which have been placed There are existing agreements in these fields between in the Libraries of both Houses and are available in the the two sovereign Governments of the United Kingdom Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. and Ireland and they are binding in international law. They now incorporate minimal amendments that are Prison Service Pay Review Body Appointments necessary to take account of the devolution in responsibility for policing and justice. The purpose of the agreements is to underpin cross-border co-operation on policing The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria and criminal justice. Eagle): My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and A separate protocol on policing architecture is in Secretary of State for Justice has appointed Professor development and will be finalised by the Northern John Beath for three years, and re-appointed John Ireland Executive after devolution. I expect to be able to Davies and Bronwen Curtis, also for three years, as share this with Parliament at a later date. members of the Prison Service Pay Review Body, I have arranged for copies of each of the documents all commencing March 2010. The appointment and to be placed in the Library of the House. 851W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 852W

Bridget Prentice: The following table shows the average Written Answers to number of weeks from the date of application to order made for care and supervision cases in England and Questions Wales (where completed cases are counted by child for family proceedings courts and by orders made for County courts). Data are provided by court area, as a local Wednesday 17 March 2010 authority area breakdown is unavailable. Data are presented by court type, from 2006-07; the earliest year for which data are available. Average number of weeks from application to order for care and supervision LEADER OF THE HOUSE cases in England and Wales, for orders made in each year Written Questions: Government Responses Court area County court Family proceedings court 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

John Mason: To ask the Leader of the House when Avon and Somerset, 58 62 57 43 45 44 she plans to answer Question (a) 311222, (b) 311223, Devon and Cornwall, (c) 311224, (d) 311225 and (e) 311226, on public duty and Gloucestershire [322735] Bedfordshire, Essex 52 53 62 45 40 51 costs allowance, tabled on 12 January 2010. and Hertfordshire Birmingham, 62 67 69 47 52 50 Barbara Keeley: These five parliamentary questions Coventry, Solihull were transferred to the Cabinet Office as I informed the and Warwickshire Member in my letter of 14 January 2010. Black Country, 48 52 56 45 48 47 Staffordshire and West Mercia Cambridgeshire, 45 49 49 39 39 39 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Norfolk and Suffolk Cheshire and 55 58 57 43 46 55 Somalia: Overseas Aid Merseyside Cleveland, Durham 48 57 59 45 47 46 Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for and Northumbria International Development pursuant to the answer of Cumbria and 51 53 61 42 41 44 8 March 2010, Official Report, column 67W,on Somalia: Lancashire overseas aid, what assessment he has made of the Dorset, Hampshire 50 58 54 45 42 44 and Isle of Wight, adequacy of arrangements for food supplies to be delivered and Wiltshire and disbursed in the camps at Afgooye; and if he will Greater Manchester 55 57 59 43 42 40 make a statement. [322373] Humber and South 41 45 46 38 36 39 Yorkshire Mr. Thomas: According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UNOCHA), Kent 53 61 67 45 45 50 current arrangements for distributing food aid to internally Leicestershire, 51 54 55 42 41 42 Lincolnshire and displaced people (IDPs) in the Afgooye corridor are Northamptonshire inadequate. Between October and December 2009, IDPs London (Civil and 56 66 65 51 53 49 in the Afgooye corridor received only half of the allocated Family) food rations. Since the suspension of the United Nations Mid and West Wales 52 53 47 42 52 46 World Food programme’s (WFP) work in Afgooye in North and West 49 48 53 38 37 39 January, no food rations have been distributed. Yorkshire On 10 March, the Secretary of State for International North Wales 62 51 58 45 31 38 Development announced an additional £7.5 million to Nottingham and 44 42 45 43 45 45 be channelled through UNICEF, the International Derbyshire Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and United Nations South East Wales 51 60 59 42 47 51 Humanitarian Response Fund (UN HRF) to help deliver Surrey and Sussex 50 55 54 50 47 45 emergency food for hundreds of thousands of malnourished Thames Valley 47 51 55 41 39 44 children and provide lifesaving water supplies. UNICEF England and Wales: 52 56 57 44 45 46 is already working in the Afgooye corridor, providing Average number of emergency nutrition to starving children and their mothers, weeks and is considering expanding its remit. UN HRF and England and Wales: 4,161 3,923 3,636 3,730 3,746 3,596 ICRC are exploring possibilities of providing food aid Total number of care and supervision to the Afgooye Corridor. orders made1 1 The figures for County courts count the number of care and supervision orders disposed in each year. Family proceedings courts figures count the number of children disposed. JUSTICE Notes: 1. The data are taken from the HMCS FamilyMan System and from the Case Care Proceedings Tracker system. 2. The figures only cover cases where a care order or a supervision order was made. The figures do not include other care and supervision disposals David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for (e.g. order refused, order of no order) and do not include other order types Justice what the average time taken to complete care (e.g. emergency protection, secure accommodation). 3. The figures reflect the mean number of weeks from application to order. proceedings in the courts was in each local authority This means that the numbers of weeks taken for each order have been added area in each year since 2003-04. [322412] up, and the total has then been divided by the number of orders. 853W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 854W

Children in Care: Child Trust Fund Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations

Ruth Kelly: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for what percentage of Child Trust Funds managed by the Defence whether he has received reports of UK armed Official Solicitor or Accountant of Court on behalf of forces’ Bowman radio equipment being recovered from looked-after children have been re-allocated to a Taliban combatants in Afghanistan. [321729] different provider following concerns about investment Bill Rammell: The Ministry of Defence has not received performance. [322393] reports of Bowman radio equipment belonging to UK Bridget Prentice: 15.12 per cent. of Child Trust Funds armed forces being recovered from the Taliban in (969) managed by the Official Solicitor have been reallocated Afghanistan. to a different provider following concerns about investment performance. At the time of the review of providers, the Air Force: Military Aircraft Official Solicitor acted as the registered contact for 6,076 children’s Funds. To date, the Official Solicitor Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence manages 6,406 Funds. how many RAF aircraft of each type were (a) in service, (b) in the forward fleet and (c) fit for purpose on the latest date for which figures are available. [319493] SCOTLAND Bill Rammell: The information requested is shown in Departmental Surveys the following table. The figures shown are the average for January 2010 and have been rounded to the nearest Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland aircraft. if he will place in the Library a copy of the benchmark “In service” has been taken to mean the effective results of the Civil Service People Survey for his fleet, which includes all aircraft barring those which are Department. [322574] redundant, declared as surplus or awaiting disposal. The Forward Fleet comprises aircraft which are serviceable Ann McKechin: The 2009 People Survey results are and those which are short-term unserviceable. Short-term now available in the Library. Information about the unserviceable aircraft are undergoing minor works, forward survey will also be put on the Scotland Office website in maintenance or any other unforeseen rectification work due course. that can arise on a day-to-day basis. Serviceable aircraft available to the front-line commands for operational and training purposes on a given date are termed available. DEFENCE The number of aircraft available in individual fleets Afghanistan and Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations varies according to normal fleet management activities including requirements for mandated maintenance and Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence upgrade programmes and the larger variations are explained how many service personnel who were repatriated from in the table. Afghanistan and Iraq were seriously wounded and subsequently died in each year since the start of each In Aircraft service Forward conflict started in each of those countries. [322184] type fleet fleet Available Notes

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Since operations began in BAe 146 2 1 1 Afghanistan (2001) and Iraq (2003) up to 10 March 2010 (latest date for which data is available), a total of 17 UK armed forces personnel who were categorised as BAe 125 6 6 4 very seriously or seriously injured on operations have subsequently died following repatriation as a result of C-17 6 5 4 the injury sustained, as shown in the following table: Dominie 9 7 5 Operation Iraq Afghanistan Total Harrier 74 50 48 The Harrier fleet All 8 9 17 continues to 2001 0 0 0 progress with the GR9 upgrade 2002 0 0 0 programme. 2003 2 0 2 2004 0 0 0 Hawk T1 129 85 68 A number of 2005 0 0 0 Hawk T1 aircraft 2006 1 1 2 are being held in 2007 5 1 6 long-term storage 2008 0 0 0 for future use by the RAF 2009 0 7 7 Aerobatic Team 2010 0 0 0 (Red Arrows) and others require These figures include all regular and reservist personnel, depth servicing. and include personnel repatriated to countries outside of the UK. 855W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 856W

In In Aircraft service Forward Aircraft service Forward type fleet fleet Available Notes type fleet fleet Available Notes

Hawk T2 17 6 3 Hawk T2 aircraft Tornado 137 102 98 being held are in GR4 storage pending the introduction of a new flying Tristar 9 5 3 training course. Tucano 93 47 32 A number of Hercules 14 7 5 A number of Tucano aircraft C130K aircraft in the K are being held in fleet were in depth long term storage maintenance. as they are not required for training purposes. Hercules 24 18 12 For the J Fleet, C130J aircraft were in Typhoon 64 42 40 Tranche 2 aircraft depth deliveries continue maintenance, on and some of the trials or in-service fleet are undergoing currently unscheduled undergoing a maintenance or process of rectification after upgrade. returning from operational theatres. VC10 15 13 6 As a result of the severe weather conditions during Nimrod 6 5 2 The number of January there were MR2 aircraft in the occasions when service fleet is aircraft being reduced as movements the out of service around the airfield date approaches. were reduced. As a Other issues consequence include work aircraft repairs generated through and maintenance safety inspections tasks took longer and to maintain than normal serviceability. thereby reducing availability.

Nimrod 2 1 1 One Nimrod R1 R1 has been retired Vigilant 65 64 64 and is awaiting disposal. Viking 82 81 81

Sentinel 5 3 1 The Sentinel fleet was affected by a Armed Forces: Bomb Disposal technical issue, which is now being resolved. Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much has been spent on explosive ordinance disposal (a) training and (b) equipment from (i) his Department’s Sentry 5 4 2 The Sentry fleet core budget and (ii) the contingency reserve in each year had an unanticipated since 2005. [321706] requirement for fleet engine Bill Rammell: The Ministry of Defence’s accountancy changes in systems do not support calculations of aggregate December which expenditure on all explosive ordnance disposal equipment was still being implemented and training over the last five years. A complete answer during January. to the question could therefore be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Tornado 22 12 12 Tornado F3 F3 numbers are being Armed Forces: Cadets reduced as the aircraft is Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for progressively withdrawn from Defence how much funding has been allocated to cadet service. forces in Shrewsbury for 2010-11. [322273]

Mr. Kevan Jones: The information is not held centrally. 857W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 858W

Funding for any particular area comes from a wide Table 3: Administrative discharges in respect of the Royal Air Force variety of sources including the single services, the use Proportion of all of subsidised facilities, and local donations and fundraising Administrative discharged efforts. To determine how much funding has been allocated Royal Air Force discharge (percentage) to a specific unit would require a manual search of 2006-071 1,660 32.7 records and would therefore incur disproportionate cost. 2007-08 1,950 38.7 The Government remain committed to the Cadet 2008-09 1,360 31.6 Organisation whose origins date back 150 years. It is 1 Introduction of new administrative discharge procedures under one of the oldest and most successful voluntary youth Queen’s Regulations organisations in the world. Today it numbers 131,000 Note: young people, led by 25,000 adult volunteers, in well Data have been rounded to the nearest 10. over 3,000 sites across the country. All data have been gathered from legacy systems and JPA. The Army are continuing data cleansing and Armed Forces: Discharges improvement exercises. As a result figures are not held centrally, at this time, in respect of those Army personnel Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for administratively discharged after 2006. Defence how many and what proportion of personnel Armed Forces: Rescue Services of each of the armed forces were administratively discharged in each year since 2001. [320773] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 5 March 2010]: The Defence whether the C-130 Hercules has been chosen term administrative discharge is applied to those service as a replacement aircraft for the Nimrod MR2 for personnel who are to be dismissed from the armed UK-based long-range search and rescue missions. forces for which there is no specific exit category. Service [321290] personnel may be administratively discharged as a result of a range of factors including: civil conviction, failing Bill Rammell: The C-130 Hercules has not been chosen to maintain a level of physical fitness to pass a fitness as a replacement aircraft for the Nimrod MR2 for test despite undertaking remedial training, financial UK-based long-range search and rescue missions. The mismanagement, persistent poor conduct and failing a Nimrod MR2 will be replaced by the substantially more random drug test. The following tables provide information capable Nimrod MRA4. on the total administrative outflow since 2001: Until the MRA4 enters service we intend to use other Table 1: Administrative discharges in respect of the naval service assets to undertake the long-range search and rescue Proportion of all role. Administrative discharged Naval service discharge (percentage) Defence: Procurement

2001-02 1,500 28.4 Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002-03 1,420 29.6 Defence what estimate he has made of the average rate 2003-04 1,320 28.3 of inflation for major defence procurement projects in 2004-05 1,350 29.6 each of the last five years. [322036] 2005-06 1,130 25.9 2006-07 1,000 23.1 Mr. Quentin Davies [holding answer 12 March 2010]: 2007-08 1,090 24.6 In response to observations by the House of Commons 2008-09 660 23.0 Defence Committee (pages 41 to 42 of the HCDC Fifth Report of the 2007-08 session on the Ministry of Defence’s Table 2: Administrative discharges in respect of the Army Annual Report and accounts 2006-07, published in Proportion of all January 2008 (HC 61), the Department has carried out Administrative discharged Army discharge (percentage) a two year programme of work to develop a robust measure of defence inflation. 2001-02 6,460 45.5 The results of this work will be published on Defence 2002-03 6,950 48.5 Analytical Services and Advice’s website on 30 March 2003-04 7,230 50.7 2010 at 9.30 am as an Official Statistic at: 2004-05 6,940 47.1 www.dasa.mod.uk 2006-071 6,750 47.7 2007-08 2— 2— Departmental Theft 2008-09 2— 2— 1 Data are for an 11 month period from legacy systems prior to JPA. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Not held centrally. Defence what steps his Department is taking to deter Table 3: Administrative discharges in respect of the Royal Air Force theft from within the Department. [322644] Proportion of all Administrative discharged Royal Air Force discharge (percentage) Mr. Kevan Jones: The Ministry of Defence Police (MDP) has actively promoted a number of crime reduction 2001-02 750 16.5 initiatives throughout the Ministry of Defence (MOD). 2002-03 990 23.3 One such initiative is the “office watch” scheme, which 2003-04 1,210 29.9 encourages the safeguarding of MOD offices and MOD 2004-05 940 25.3 property by raising awareness of staff, in relation to 2005-06 730 15.9 their own and others’ personal property, as well as 859W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 860W property of the MOD. The MDP also have 63 community 2009-10 and their own funding. The Department does based Beat Officers, who are trained crime reduction not fund cycle training in London boroughs as the officers working in MOD establishments across the responsibility for cycle training in London rests with country. These officers provide an effective deterrent to Transport for London. potential criminals, by raising the awareness of staff, service personnel, service families and contractors. At Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings sites where there are no trained MDP crime reduction personnel present, all staff, and also contractors and Barry Gardiner: To ask the Minister of State, visitors, are encouraged to work together to make their Department for Transport how many (a) disciplinary places of employment and homes safer and more secure. and (b) capability procedures have been (i) initiated and (ii) completed in his Department in each of the last Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations five years; how much time on average was taken to complete each type of procedure in each such year; Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if how many and what proportion of his Department’s he will place in the Library an unclassified copy of the staff were subject to each type of procedure in each 7th Armoured Brigade Post Operation Tour Report of such year; and how many and what proportion of each Op Telic 1. [321705] type of procedure resulted in the dismissal of the member of staff. [320621] Bill Rammell: Post operational tour reports are not intended for external publication and unclassified versions Chris Mole: The Department for Transport comprises are not produced. This information could therefore be a central Department and seven agencies. The following provided only at disproportionate cost. table provides details of how many disciplinary and capability procedures have been initiated and completed Nimrod Aircraft in the Department over the past five years. It should be noted that the figures on capability dismissals include Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for trainee driving examiners who undertake the entrance Defence when he expects the first Nimrod MRA4 to course but do not go on to qualify as driving examiners enter service; and if he will make a statement. [321966] and are not included in the capability cases specified in category (b) of the table. Mr. Quentin Davies: The first Nimrod MRA4 production aircraft was accepted by the Ministry of Defence on 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 10 March 2010. The aircraft will initially be used for (a) Discipline 101 143 139 54 8 pilot and rear crew training and is then expected to (b) Capability 18 17541 enter service with the RAF in mid 2010. Dismissal 9 6 11 12 5 discipline Dismissal 10 14 9 12 1 capability TRANSPORT The Department does not routinely record the time Cycling taken to complete each type of procedure in each year nor how many and what proportion of staff were Lynne Jones: To ask the Minister of State, Department subject to each type of procedures in each year. This for Transport what information his Department holds information can be provided only at disproportionate on which local authorities make cycle training available cost. The total number of staff in February 2010 in the to (a) the general public and (b) schools; and what Department and its agencies is just over 19,000. proportion of schools in providing local authorities are Two of our agencies, the Vehicle and Operator Services receiving cycle training programmes. [321420] Agency and the Government Car and Despatch Agency, do not record this information centrally and could Mr. Khan: Most if not all local highway authorities collate the information only at disproportionate cost. offer some level of cycle training to both adults and children. Departmental Energy In addition the Department for Transport supports and funds National Standard cycle training which is Dan Rogerson: To ask the Minister of State, Department predominately delivered in England as ‘Bikeability’training. for Transport what steps his Department plans to take The Department provides a maximum grant of £40 per to participate in the Earth Hour event on 27 March child to be trained to Level 2 on the National Standard 2010. [319101] and we recently announced funding of over £12 million for local authorities and School Sports partnerships for Chris Mole: The Department for Transport will 2010-11. participate in the Earth Hour event. The Department does not hold information about The event occurs outside of normal departmental the proportion of members of the public and schools working hours and as such we expect the majority of being offered cycle training. However a table has been our sites to already be in a state of near darkness. placed in the Libraries of the House providing the However, to emphasise the importance of this event any information which the Department holds on the proportion maintenance works or activity during Earth Hour will of Year 6 pupils being offered training to the National be curtailed where it is practical to do so. Standard by those authorities delivering that training This event has also been promoted to staff across the through Department for Transport grants awarded in Department and its agencies. 861W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 862W

Electric Motors to submit a major scheme business case shortly. As a result, the Department has not made an assessment of Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department the effects of the timing of submission of business for Transport whether he plans to extend the plug-in car plans. grant to electric-powered motorcycles and scooters; and if he will make a statement. [322688] Railways: Tickets Mr. Khan: Passenger cars are by some distance the biggest source of emissions from road transport, forming Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department almost 60 per cent. of total UK domestic CO2 transport for Transport what estimate he has made of the effect emissions compared to less than 1 per cent. by powered on the cost of off-peak rail travel in the London borough two wheelers. As such, the focus of the Plug-In Car of Bexley of the implementation of the Oyster pay-as- Grant is on cars where it will have the biggest impact on you-go agreement. [322453] greenhouse gas emissions from road transport. We recognise that electric motorcycles offer environmental benefits Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has made compared to conventional motorcycles and they are no specific analysis of this effect on the London borough already zero rated for vehicle excise duty purposes and of Bexley. Before the launch of Oyster Pay As You Go, exempt from fuel duty. Electric motorcycles and scooters some high level analysis was carried out on the likely should be able to access the majority of recharging effects of Pay As You Go fares changes across London infrastructure installed as part of the £30 million Plugged-In as a whole. Within that analysis there were both positive Places framework. and negative effects, but overwhelmingly those who had been disadvantaged can switch to Pay As You Go and Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties get the best value fares available for their time of travel.

Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many vehicles were exempt from Railways: York vehicle excise duty as a result of having been first registered prior to January 1973 in each of the last five Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister of State, Department years. [320879] for Transport what the (a) open full, (b) average and (c) lowest advance purchase fare available to the general Paul Clark: The following table provides the number public was for rail travel between York and London in of licensed vehicles that were exempt from vehicle excise (i) 1996-97 and (ii) the latest period for which figures are duty on the 31 December in each of the last five years as available, expressed in (A) cash and (B) real terms. a result of having been manufactured prior to January [322098] 1973. These figures are for Great Britain. Chris Mole: Typically over 75 per cent. of long distance Number of vehicles rail journeys are made using discounted tickets. The 2004 322,842 cheapest York London Advance fare today is £10 single. 2005 318,300 In 1996 it was £34 in simple cash terms. Around under 2006 307,406 20 per cent. of longer journeys are made with Anytime Returns. In 1996 the Standard Class Anytime fare was 2007 303,943 £102, it is now £223. 2008 302,891 The regulated Off Peak Return in 1996 was £57. This Data for 2009 will be published at the end of April now costs £83.70, and is cheaper in real terms, having 2010. increased by less than the change in RPI since 1996. An operator specific Off Peak Return costing £61 is also Railways: Coventry available.

Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport (1) whether Coventry city Roads: Greater London council has submitted to his Department a business plan for development under the NUCKLE project Tom Brake: To ask the Minister of State, Department which includes a station at the Ricoh Arena; and what for Transport when the Secretary of State’s approval for recent discussions his Department has had with the form of the fixed penalty notice to be used in cases Coventry city council on the production of a future of highway obstruction under the London Local Authorities business plan in connection with the NUCKLE and Transport for London Act 2003 was first sought; project; [321821] on how many subsequent occasions his Department has (2) what assessment he has made of the effects of the discussed that matter; and when he expects to be in a timing of submission of business plans in connection position to decide on the form of the fixed penalty with the NUCKLE project on the (a) timetable for notice. [322046] delivery and (b) costs of the project. [321822] Mr. Khan: Responsibility for this matter was transferred Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has had to the Department for Transport from Government recent discussions with Coventry city council about Office for London in 2007. The Secretary of State producing a business plan in connection with the NUCKLE expects to be in a position to approve the form of the project. From this, I understand that they are proposing fixed penalty notice later this year. 863W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 864W

Rolling Stock WALES Unemployment Anne Main: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many short forming trains were run 10. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for by each train operating company in each week of the Wales what recent discussions he has had with the last six months. [321485] Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the level of unemployment in Wales. [321817]

Chris Mole [holding answer 10 March 2010]: Only Mr. David: The Government’s extra investment in certain train operators are required to report the number jobs, education and training is making a real difference of trains short-formed, and do so as part of a contractual in Wales. Latest labour market statistics show the monitoring regime. The Department does not hold employment level in Wales rising by 7,000 from the information for operators whose franchise agreement previous quarter. does not require this. For those that are required to report short-formed 11. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for services, the numbers for the six most recent four-weekly Wales what recent estimate he has made of the level of reporting periods are shown in the following table: long-term unemployment in Neath constituency. [321818] 2009 2010 Mr. Hain: Despite the worst global economic recession Train Aug- Sept- Oct- Nov- Dec- Jan- operator Sept Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb in the last 60 years, this Government’s action has ensured that long-term unemployment in Neath is over 60 per First 147 134 196 71 92 309 cent. lower than it was in 1997, with long-term youth Capital unemployment over 40 per cent. lower. Connect National 39 25 20 63 33 79 Industrial Action Express East Anglia Southeastern 81 110 98 176 395 287 12. Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for Crosscountry 117 63 70 78 121 107 Wales how many days were lost to industrial action in Trains Wales in 2009. [321819] London 843 120 476 701 375 207 Midland Mr. David: Figures for 2009 are currently not available. East 95 32 51 100 98 59 However, in 2008, the number of working days lost to Midland industrial action in Wales was 55,000. This was just over Trains 7 per cent. of the total working days lost in the United Southern 1—5040519170Kingdom (759,000) in 2008. Northern 243 226 149 186 270 332 1 A new franchise agreement commenced on 20 September 2009 and Departmental Internet equivalent data was not previously reported Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales For the operators shown above, the total number of pursuant to the answer of 4 March 2010, Official services operated from which short-formed trains are Report, column 1303W, on departmental internet, what reported, is shown in the following table. In some cases, the cost was of the website redesign. [321923] operators are not required to monitor and report all services operated. Mr. Hain: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David 2009 2010 T. C. Davies) on 14 December 2009, Official Report, Train Aug- Sept- Oct- Nov- Dec- Jan- column 643W. operator Sept Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb

First 20,582 20,767 20,203 18,421 16,661 20,644 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Capital how many designs for its (a) internal website and (b) Connect intranet his Department has commissioned since 2005; National 45,778 46,610 45,974 45,383 38,867 45,642 and what the cost was of each such design. [321977] Express East Anglia Mr. Hain: The Wales Office does not have an internal Southeastern 44,373 44,540 44,580 44,526 36,349 49,715 website or intranet. Staff have access to the Ministry of Crosscountry 7,442 7,530 7,429 7,654 5,790 7,749 Justice intranet site. Trains London 31,391 32,601 31,298 31,722 28,162 32,607 Incinerators: Merthyr Tydfil Midland East 11,761 11,732 11,727 11,657 10,642 11,955 Midland Mr. Havard: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Trains what discussions he has had with (a) the Secretary of Southern 1— 6,680 6,676 6,675 3,483 5,966 State for Energy and Climate Change and (b) Welsh Northern 4,663 4,675 4,636 4,613 4,039 4,413 Assembly Government Ministers on the effect on the 1 A new franchise agreement commenced on 20 September 2009 and UK Government’s waste and sustainability strategy of equivalent data was not previously reported the proposed construction of a 50MW, open grate, 865W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 866W waste-to-energy incinerator near Merthyr Tydfil fuelled Tessa Jowell: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral by non-recyclable waste and the likely effect of the part of Cabinet Office. importation of such fuel stock by sea to proposed The (a) internal website and (b) intranet are classed receiving and transfer stations located at Welsh ports. as the same website for the purpose of this response. [322323] The Department has commissioned one redesign of Mr. Hain: I have regular discussions with UK and its intranet home page since 2005. In March 2009 the Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on a range of Cabinet Office replaced its PDF staff newsletter, ‘Inside’, issues including sustainability. with an online news service. This work was carried out by an external agency at a cost of £10,245 plus VAT. Both UK and Welsh Assembly Governments recognise This spend only relates to the Department’s intranet. that recovering energy from waste can play an important part in helping to meet Government commitments to No designs have been commissioned for the intranet tackle climate change, improve our energy security for No. 10 Downing street since 2005. and create new business and job opportunities. Both Unemployment Governments also recognise the need to take into account a range of factors when taking decisions on such proposals. John Mason: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet I understand the planning application for the proposed Office how many and what proportion of people in (a) construction of an energy-from-waste incinerator at Glasgow East constituency and (b) the UK are Merthyr Tydfil is being considered by the Infrastructure unemployed. [321879] Planning Commission (IPC), who consider all applications in England and Wales where a plant has electrical Angela E. Smith: The information falls within the capacity greater than 50MW. It would therefore be responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have inappropriate for me to comment on this development asked the authority to reply. further while it is in planning stages, except to say that Letter from Stephen Penneck ,dated March 2010: the generation of energy from waste is highly desirable compared with depositing waste in landfill which is As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I completely unsustainable have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many and what proportion of people in (a) Glasgow East Notice of the application and details of the scoping constituency and (b) the UK are unemployed. (321879) exercise for the proposed project can be viewed at: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment http://infrastructure.independent.gov.uk/?page_id=202 statistics in line with International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS). However, due to the small sample size, no reasonable estimate is available for Glasgow East. CABINET OFFICE As an alternative, in table 1, we have provided the number and proportion of persons, of working age, claiming Jobseeker’s Civil Contingencies Emergency College Allowance (JSA), in January 2010, for (a) Glasgow East constituency and (b) the United Kingdom, from the Jobcentre Plus administrative Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet system. Office when she last visited the Civil Contingencies National and local area estimates for many labour market Emergency College at Hawkshill, near Easingwold; and statistics, including employment and unemployment are available if she will make a statement. [321865] from the NOMIS website at http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Tessa Jowell: I have not yet visited the Emergency Table 1: Number and proportion of persons, of working age, claiming Planning College. The college is currently engaged in a jobseeker’s allowance resident in Glasgow East parliamentary major project within the Government’s Operational constituency and the United Kingdom Efficiency Programme to develop a commercial partnership Not seasonally adjusted with Serco in order to allow it to deliver maximum Glasgow East1 United Kingdom2 benefit to the resilience of the UK while achieving Number Percentage Number Percentage greater efficiency. In view of the exceptional demands on the college’s management team during the transition stage, I do not think the time is right for a ministerial January 2010 4,022 7.2 1,654,025 4.3 visit at this particular stage. 1. Proportions for constituencies in Scotland, from 2007 onwards, are calculated using the mid-2006 resident working age population. Departmental Internet 2. Proportions for regions and countries from 2009 onwards are calculated using the mid-2008 resident working age population. This Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office is different from the headline claimant count figures which are seasonally adjusted and use a denominator based on workforce jobs and claimant pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2010, Official count to calculate the claimant count rate. Report, column 698W, on departmental internet, what Source: the cost was of the website redesign. [321935] Jobcentre Plus Administrative System

Tessa Jowell: The design referred to in the answer of 25 February 2010, Official Report, column 698W, was WORK AND PENSIONS provided by in-house resource at no cost. Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many designs for its (a) internal website and (b) Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work intranet her Department has commissioned since 2005; and Pensions what steps she plans to take to reduce the and what the cost was of each such design. [321992] incidence of carbon monoxide poisoning. [322248] 867W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 868W

Jonathan Shaw: The primary focus of Government Additionally, the Cross Government Group on gas work to reduce the incidence of carbon monoxide poisoning safety and CO awareness, which covers all combustion is to ensure that consumers use competent engineers to fuels, aims to share knowledge and information and undertake work on their appliances. The Gas Safe develop effective strategies to improve gas safety and Register, established by HSE in 2009, provides consumers tackle carbon monoxide risks from all fuels. with a clear route to find competent engineers and works to promote better public awareness of gas safety Departmental Temporary Employment risks and the dangers arising from carbon monoxide. Since 1 April 2009 the Gas Safe Register have been undertaking a significant gas safety and carbon monoxide Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work awareness raising campaign aimed at consumers, including and Pensions which companies were contracted by her national TV and online advertising, coverage on consumer Department for the provision of temporary staff in programmes and national and regional radio and newspaper each of the last three years; how many temporary staff reporting. were employed by her Department in each such year; and what the monetary value was of contracts with There are other complementary Government work each such company in each such year. [317995] streams relating to carbon monoxide, including the Department for Communities and Local Government’s recent consultation on amendments to the Building Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 22 February 2010]: Regulations which proposed the compulsory installation The DWP has a contract with Brook Street for the of carbon monoxide alarms when a new or replacement provision of temporary staff since September 2007; solid fuel appliances are installed, a Health Protection prior to this the service was contracted through Reed Agency’s study to assess the effectiveness of campaigns Employment plc (full UK coverage) and Hays Specialist in increasing the knowledge of CO and Department of Services (London only). Health research into the long term effects of exposure The expenditure and numbers of temporary staff to carbon monoxide. were as follows:

2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 (year to date December) Expenditure Headcount Expenditure Headcount Expenditure Headcount (£ million) (average) (£ million) (average) (£ million) (average)

Total 6.48 unknown 10.2 1270 4.6 1215 Brook Street 0.076 — 3.5 — 4.6 — Reed 0.432 — 0.312 — 0 — Hays 4.5 — 3.5 — 0 — Other 1.48 — 2.9 — 0 — 1 Headcount figures are averaged across the period noted.

The headcount for temporary staff for 2007-08 is not reminders to employees to protect valuable assets and available centrally as DWP did not capture management the information on them, when off the Department’s information as standard across the various suppliers for premises. the periods in question. We require all portable IT equipment, such as laptops and memory sticks, to be encrypted. The same applies to BlackBerry phones. This means that these items will Departmental Theft not work if stolen.

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Departmental Travel and Pensions what steps her Department is taking to deter theft from within the Department. [322658] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if she will publish the travel guidance Jonathan Shaw: The Department takes extensive issued to staff of her Department’s agencies and measures to protect our assets and to deter theft. non-departmental public bodies. [314929] The physical security of all our premises complies with central Government security standards. The measures Jonathan Shaw: The DWP has a detailed travel policy we use to prevent unauthorised access and to protect which seeks to promote consistent and best value use of our assets include entry controls, pass systems, security transport options by its staff. It is made available to all guarding, CCTV and intruder detection systems. staff through its intranet site. All employees are required, as part of their conditions This policy is currently under review, however the full of employment, to safeguard the Department’s assets, text of existing policy has been placed in the Library and to take care to ensure that no loss or damage along with details relating to the Department’s agencies occurs. Suspected thefts will, where appropriate, be and non-departmental public bodies. referred to the police, and the Department will strongly The following non-departmental public bodies follow support any ensuing police action. the Department for Work and Pensions travel guidance: All employees have been required to undertake security Disability Living Allowance Advisory Board awareness training in the past year, which covers the Equality 2025 protection of the Department’s assets. We have issued Industrial Injuries Advisory Council 869W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 870W

Pensions Ombudsman permanent secretary only. The expenditure for 2008-09 Pensions Protection Fund Ombudsman and for the first nine months of 2009-10 includes all Social Security Advisory Committee. departmental expenditure with the Government Car and Despatch Agency.The proportional split of expenditure Disability Living Allowance: Tribunals the Government Car Service could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many appeal tribunals related to Housing Benefit disability living allowance took place in each of the last five years. [322343] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Bridget Prentice: I have been asked to reply. and Pensions what expenditure her Department has incurred on the local housing allowance scheme since it The number of tribunal appeals relating to disability was introduced. [316798] living allowance for each of the last five years is shown in the following table. Helen Goodman: The available information is in the Financial year Cases disposed of at a hearing table. Local housing allowance expenditure April 2005 to March 2006 71,125 In cash terms (£ million) April 2006 to March 2007 65,088 April 2007 to March 2008 57,824 2004-05 199 April 2008 to March 2009 53,880 2005-06 332 April 2009 to February 2010 48,077 2006-07 379 Total 295,994 2007-08 422 2008-09 1,863 Employment: Disabled Source: Local authority subsidy claims. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In 2004-05 nine Pathfinder local authorities piloted and Pensions how many disabled people living in the the local housing allowance. In 2005 the pilot was City of York have moved into work in each of the last extended to 18 local authorities. three years. [321689] From April 2008 the local housing allowance was used by all 408 local authorities for new claims from Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not renters in the deregulated private sector, replacing the available. Local Reference Rent scheme. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department also provided around £9 million Work and Pensions how many disabled people living in of funding to the Pathfinder local authorities, and Milton Keynes have moved into work in each of the £59 million to fund the administrative costs of national last three years. [321870] implementation.

Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not Housing Benefit: Scotland available. Government Car and Despatch Agency Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Fife and (b) Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Scotland receive local housing allowance. [322401] and Pensions how much her Department paid to the Government Car and Despatch Agency in each of the Helen Goodman: The available information is in the last five years; how much it has spent on such payments table. in 2009-10; and what proportion of such payments was made in respect of the Government Car Service. Housing benefit recipients—local housing allowance tenants: Great Britain November 2009 [316427] Number

Jonathan Shaw: The Department’s expenditure with Scotland 52,590 the Government Car and Despatch Agency is detailed Fife local authority 3,470 in the following table. Notes: 1. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. £ 2. Local housing allowance tenants may include a small number of non-LHA cases making a new claim since 7 April 2008. This will include recipients in 2004-05 n/a caravan accommodation. 3. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2005-06 390,700 4. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. 2006-07 407,800 5. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local 2007-08 415,900 authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data are available monthly from November 2008 and November 2009 and are 2008-09 779,865 the most recent available. 2009-10 (nine months to December) 479,497 6. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An extended payment is a payment that may be received for a further four weeks when they The Department does not hold this information for start working full-time, work more hours or earn more money. 7. Data from SHBE incorporate the local authority changes from 1 April 2009. 2004-05. The data for 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08 Source: relates to the use of ministerial cars and the car for the Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) 871W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 872W

Housing Benefit: Young People Angela Eagle: The Workplace Pension Reform Regulations Impact Assessment, published January 2010, Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Secretary of State for Work makes clear we have not calculated the costs to employers and Pensions how many people under the age of of seeking external advice, as the regulations do not 19 years who are not in employment, education or require employers to seek such advice on how to implement training are living in supported housing schemes; what or comply with the reforms. assessment she has made of the effects of housing The Government are working closely with both the benefit levels on the prospects of such people obtaining Personal Accounts Delivery Authority and the Pensions employment; and if she will make a statement. [320878] Regulator and already have plans in place to provide employers with information and support both before Helen Goodman: The information requested is not and during the implementation of the reform. The available. Figures on the total number of young people Pension Regulator’s communication and education under the age of 19 years who are not in employment, campaign is being designed to help employers and the education and training and living in supported housing intermediaries employers rely on for help, to understand schemes are not collected centrally. what must be done to meet the new employer duties. The Government are committed to ensuring that there are suitable employment and training opportunities Employers who still choose to seek advice from external for all and that the system of working age benefits bodies on top of the information provided by the provides effective support for people to return to work. Department and the Pensions Regulator must anticipate Young people are a specific priority. In December 2009 a benefit from this advice that outweighs the cost. we published ‘Investing in Potential’, our cross-Government strategy for increasing the proportion of 16 to 24-year-olds Pension Credit: Glasgow in education, employment or training. Housing benefit is an income-related benefit designed John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to help people who rent their home and have difficulty and Pensions how many people are in receipt of pension in meeting reasonable housing costs. There is no age credits in Glasgow East constituency; and what the restriction and it can be paid to people whether or not average weekly payment was in the latest period for they are working or training. Full-time students in which figures are available. [321880] non-advanced and further education who are aged less than 21 may also get housing benefit. We have recently Angela Eagle: The information is as follows: launched the Working Benefits campaign to help advisers Recipients of pension credit in the Glasgow, East constituency, explain to their clients the in-work support that this August 2009 benefit can offer and make it clear that help with Number/£ housing costs is still available to people in work or training on a low income. Individual beneficiaries 9,340 On 15 December 2009 we launched the consultation Households recipients 7,850 document ‘Supporting People into Work: The next Average weekly award of pension 60.56 credit (£) stage of Housing Benefit Reform’ which examines how Notes: housing benefit might play a part in encouraging people 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10. to work. It contained proposals that will improve incentives 2. Household recipients are those people who claim pension credit for people to get a job, building on an on-going programme either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. of IT projects and financial help designed to smooth Beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number the transition for our customers as they move into of partners for whom they are claiming. 3. Pension credit is claimed on a household basis. The average weekly work. award of pension credit is in relation to the household. Many single young people aged under 25 will have 4. Parliamentary constituencies and local authorities are assigned by the amount of their rent which is eligible for help with matching postcodes against the relevant ONS postcode directory. housing benefit restricted to the amount they would pay Source: DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study on a shared room basis, regardless of the property they 100 per cent. data. rent. This reflects the fact that this group commonly have earnings prospects well below those of older people Pension Credit: Milton Keynes and addresses any possible disincentive to work that may arise from meeting high rent levels a person could Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for not afford while in work. Work and Pensions how many people in Milton Keynes However the housing benefit rules recognise the receive (a) basic state pension and (b) pension credit; additional costs that might arise from the provision of and what the average weekly amount of pension credit supported housing. For this group no account is taken received is. [321869] of a person’s age in working out what help is available and help for those living in the social and voluntary Angela Eagle: The information requested is in the sectors is usually based on the contractual rent. following table. Occupational Pensions: Regulation Milton Keynes local authority Date Number/£ John Penrose: To ask the Secretary of State for Work People in receipt of March 2009 29,200 and Pensions for what reason the cost to businesses of basic state pension external advice to comply with the provisions of the Individual August 2009 8,820 Pensions Act 2008 was not included in her Department’s beneficiaries of estimate of the cost to the private sector. [318523] pension credit 873W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 874W

Milton Keynes local authority Social Security Benefits: Fraud Date Number/£

Households in receipt August 2009 7,200 Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of pension credit and Pensions (1) what requirements apply to people Average weekly August 2009 57.98 found to have committed benefit fraud to repay money award of pension defrauded; and what mechanisms are in place to recover credit (£) the money in such cases; [322731] 1 Numbers in receipt of Basic State Pension rounded to nearest 100. 2 Pension credit caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. (2) whether a claimant who has committed benefit 3 Household recipients are those people who claim pension credit fraud is required to repay the sum defrauded before either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. making a further claim for benefit. [322734] Beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners for whom they are claiming. 4 Pension credit is claimed on a household basis. The average weekly Helen Goodman: The Department seeks to minimise award of pension credit is in relation to the household. the amount of fraud arising in the system. Proportionally, 5 Parliamentary constituencies and local authorities are assigned by fraud in the benefit system is now over 60 per cent. less matching postcodes against the relevant ONS postcode directory. than it was in 2000-01. Sources: Basic State Pension When benefit fraud is discovered the resultant Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5 per overpayment is pursued in all cases and priority is given cent sample. The figures have been adjusted in line with the Work to fraud cases to ensure that the time delay between and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100 per cent data. discovery and recovery is kept to a minimum. The Pension Credit DWP Information Directorate Work and Pension Longitudinal mechanics of the recovery of the overpayment will vary study 100 per cent. date depending on the value of the debt and the circumstances of the customer, but will include one or more of the following:- Pension Credit: York Compulsory recovery from ongoing benefit entitlement; Recovery by lump sum or instalment for those no longer in Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work receipt of benefit; and Pensions how many people in City of York local Seizure of assets under the Proceeds of Crime Act; authority area receive (a) basic state pension and (b) Compensation order awarded by the courts; pension credit; and what the average weekly amount of Referral to a private sector partner to undertake debt recovery pension credit received is. [321690] where appropriate; and Enforcement of the debt through civil court where appropriate. Angela Eagle: As at March 2009, there were 36,800 A customer is not required to repay the sum defrauded recipients of the basic state pension in York local authority. before making a further claim to benefit, though we Notes: would take deductions from future benefit payments to recover the debt. The maximum rate for recovery of 1. Figures are subject a high degree of sampling error and should overpayments arising from fraudulent activity is greater be used as a guide. than it is for ordinary overpayments. 2. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 100. 3. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Source: and Pensions (1) how many fraudulent benefit claims were detected in each of the last five years; how many Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, such cases resulted in (a) administrative penalties, (b) 5 per cent. sample cautions, (c) prosecutions and (d) convictions in each The information requested on the number of recipients of these years; and how many of those convicted received of pension credit in York local authority and the average a (i) custodial sentence, (ii) community sentence and weekly award of pension credit received is in the following (iii) discharge in each of these years; [322732] table: (2) what sanctions are available to her Department with respect to people found to have committed benefit As at August 2009 Number/£ fraud; and how many and what percentage of people Individual beneficiaries 8,010 found to have committed benefit fraud received each Households recipients 6,650 type of sanction in each of the last five years. [322733] Average weekly award of pension credit 47.51 (£) Helen Goodman: The Department for Work and Pensions Notes: has three criminal sanctions available for use in cases of 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. benefit fraud. These are cautions, administrative penalties 2. Household recipients are those people who claim pension credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. and criminal prosecutions. Beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number In addition, the ‘Two Strike’ 13 week loss of benefit of partners for whom they are claiming. sanction applies to those who have been convicted twice 3. Pension credit is claimed on a household basis. The average weekly award of pension credit is in relation to the household. of benefit fraud within a set period. From 1 April 2010 4. Parliamentary constituencies and local authorities are assigned by the Department will also be able to apply a ‘One Strike’ matching postcodes against the relevant ONS postcode directory. four week loss of benefit sanction to those who have Source: been convicted of benefit fraud for the first time, as well DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study as to those who have accepted an administrative penalty 100 per cent. data. or caution. 875W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 876W

If a benefit claim is confirmed as fraudulent following Social Security Benefits: Publicity an investigation, one of the above criminal sanctions will be applied in all cases. The figures provided in the Mr. Horam: To ask the Secretary of State for Work following tables represent the number of fraudulent and Pensions what her policy is on the provision of (a) benefit claims detected in each of the last five years. information and (b) information leaflets on (i) attendance The available information for both Department for allowance and (ii) other welfare benefits in (A) post Work and Pensions and local authority administered offices, (B) libraries and (C) other public places. [322255] benefits is provided. Information on local authority prosecutions and convictions is not yet available for Helen Goodman: There is currently no contractual 2008-09. agreement between the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office for the display of leaflets about Department for Work and Pensions administered benefits attendance allowance or any welfare benefits. Number of Number of Number convictions While there is no national agreement for the display administrative Number of prosecuted for benefit of leaflets at libraries, doctors surgeries, council offices penalties cautions for benefit fraud and citizens advise bureaux there are a number of issued issued fraud offences routes that ensure the availability of leaflets at these 2004-05 8,510 9,997 10,295 9,219 locations: 2005-06 10,870 10,543 10,262 8,740 The Pension Service’s local service teams, located throughout 2006-07 9,810 11,976 8,964 6,861 England, Scotland and Wales, have local partnerships with 2007-08 8,566 12,821 10,274 7,745 external organisations and formally monitor the use and availability of leaflets at ‘Hard Copy Information Points’ on partner 2008-09 7,160 14,320 8,840 6,700 premises. They also share local knowledge and experience of Sources: which leaflets are the most popular and most useful to our 1. Administrative penalty and caution data is taken from the Fraud customers. Information by Sector system (FIBS) and the Fraud Referral and Intervention Management System (FRAIMS). The 62,000 subscribers to the Central Office of Information’s 2. Prosecution and conviction data for England and Wales is taken Publicity Register receive a quarterly magazine called ‘Touchbase’ from DWP/DH Legal Group’s computerised information system. which provides details of current and forthcoming information 3. Prosecution and conviction data for Scotland is taken from FIBS campaigns. Subscribers are also able to order leaflets directly and FRAIMS. from the Department through its on-line catalogue of information Local authority administered benefits products. Number of The Department has a commercial agreement in place to Number of Number Number convictions provide key Pension Service and Disability and Carer Service administrative of prosecuted for benefit leaflets in more than half of all doctors waiting rooms and penalties cautions for benefit fraud pharmacies across the UK. The cost of this service is met issued issued fraud offences directly by the Department and the information provided by it 2004-05 4,496 6,649 5,544 4,688 is available free of charge to the public. 2005-06 6,199 9,708 7,717 6,234 Customers can also access the Department’s leaflets 2006-07 6,742 10,662 6,023 5,860 and the latest information about benefits and services 2007-08 8,416 12,569 6,611 6,493 online at the Directgov website. 2008-09 1— 1— 1— 1— 1 Unavailable. State Retirement Pensions Note: The decision to prosecute is taken by the appropriate local authority. Source: Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Housing Benefit Operational Database (HOBOD) using local authority and Pensions what assessment she has made of the administrative returns. merits of uprating earnings-related state pensions at the same rate as the basic state pension from April Information relating to how many individuals convicted 2010. [318622] of benefit fraud received a custodial sentence, community sentence or discharge is only available for Department Angela Eagle: The conventions on uprating state for Work and Pensions administered benefits. The available pensions are concerned with maintaining their price information is provided in the following table. value. Had we applied those rules this year, when inflation Department for Work and Pensions administered benefits as measured by the September retail Price Index was Number of Number of Number of minus 1.4 per cent. pensioners would not have received convictions custodial community Number of a rise in their State pension. for benefit sentences sentences discharges fraud offences given given given However, we are committed to getting help to the 11 million pensioners in Great Britain, many of whom 2004-05 9,219 601 2,492 2,652 are facing difficulties in the current economic climate. 2005-06 8,740 919 2,927 2,441 We are determined that the fairest and most effective 2006-07 6,861 616 2,415 1,734 way was to apply an above inflation increase of 2.5 per 2007-08 7,745 522 2,780 2,207 cent. to the basic state pension. This will be worth 2008-09 6,700 467 2,507 1,516 around £1 billion to pensioners and will mean that on Sources: average state pension recipients will see an overall increase 1. Information for England and Wales is taken from DWP/DH Legal of 2 per cent. in their state pension. At the same time we Group’s computerised information system. 2. Information for Scotland is taken from the Fraud Information by have increased the pension credit standard minimum Sector system (FIBS) and the Fraud Referral and Intervention guarantee by £2.60 a week for single pensioners and Management System (FRAIMS). £3.95 for couples to help the poorest pensioners. 877W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 878W

By contrast, increasing additional State pension would Employee property reported as stolen have a widely variable effect on the help given to pensioners. One bottle of aftershave—nil replacement cost for the Department. For example, very elderly female pensioners receiving Employee property reported as lost on average £5 of additional pension a week would only see an increase of a few pence each week on their state One Apple iPhone—nil replacement cost for the Department pension. However, others, typically younger male pensioners who had higher earnings, could see increases closer to Departmental Pay around £4 a week. Increasing the basic state pension means that help is provided to more pensioners with a John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for more even distribution. Communities and Local Government how many and what proportion of senior civil servants in his Department were awarded a bonus in 2009; and what the (a) highest, (b) lowest, (c) mean, (d) median and (e) mode bonus COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT awarded was. [320798] Community Development Barbara Follett: The following table sets out the Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities details of performance related payments made to senior and Local Government whether he has set a timetable civil servants in the Department for Communities and for reaching agreement with the Local Government Local Government following the 2009 pay award, broken Association on the proposals on the shortlist produced down into £5,000 bands. under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 to be Details of performance related implemented. [321664] payments Barbara Follett [holding answer 17 March 2010]: The Number of performance 102 Government are carefully considering each of the 199 related payments made short-listed proposals submitted by the selector body, the Local Government Association (LGA) under the Proportion this represents 76 Sustainable Communities Act 2007. We are now discussing (percentage) these with the LGA as part of the process of seeking to reach agreement required by the Act. Highest in the range £10,001 to £15,000 Lowest in the range £0 to £5,000 Departmental ICT Mean in the range £5,001 to £10,000 Median in the range £5,001 to £10,000 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Mode in the range £0 to £5,000 for Communities and Local Government what information technology projects initiated by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies were cancelled prior to completion John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for in the last 12 months; and what the cost of each such Communities and Local Government how many and project was to the public purse. [320430] what proportion of his Department’s Board members who were civil servants working in his Department Barbara Follett: The Department and its agencies were awarded a bonus in (a) 2008 and (b) 2009; and have not cancelled any IT projects in the last 12 months. what the highest bonus paid was in each of those years. [320799] Departmental Lost Property Barbara Follett: The Communities and Local John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Board consists of eight senior civil servants Communities and Local Government what property (SCS) and currently five non-executive members. CLG has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from his only holds records of those who are civil servants Department in the last 12 months; and what estimate within Communities and Local Government. has been made of the cost of the replacement of that In 2008 all eight executive board members received a property. [322071] performance related payment. The highest payment made was in the range of between £20,000 and £25,000. Barbara Follett: The property recorded as (a) lost or In 2009, the permanent secretary volunteered to forgo (b) stolen from Communities and Local Government a bonus. The seven other executive members received a in the last 12 months and the estimated cost of the performance related payment. The highest payment replacement of that property is as follows: made in the range of between £10,000 and £15,000. Departmental property reported as stolen An element of the Communities and Local Government Five BlackBerrys—valued at approximately £1,000 (£200 each) overall pay award is allocated to non-consolidated variable Six laptop computers—valued at approximately £6,000 (£1,000 pay related to performance. These payments are used to each) drive high performance and form part of the pay award One mobile phone—valued at approximately £200 for members of staff who demonstrate exceptional One mobile phone charger—valued at approximately £10 performance, for example by exceeding targets set or None of the information contained on laptops, or meeting challenging objectives. BlackBerry’s was classified. However, each laptop was Non-consolidated variable pay awards are funded password protected and the BlackBerry’s were both from within existing pay bill controls, and have to be encrypted and password protected. re-earned each year against pre-determined targets and, 879W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 880W as such, do not add to future pay bill costs. The percentage John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for of the pay bill set aside for performance-related awards Communities and Local Government with reference to for the SCS is based on recommendations from the the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst independent Senior Salaries Review Body. of 12 October 2009, Official Report, columns 312-3W, on departmental pay, what contractual arrangements John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for led to the payment of a non-consolidated sum to Mr. Falvey. Communities and Local Government what the [322710] (a) highest, (b) lowest, (c) mean, (d) median and (e) mode salary paid to (i) senior civil servants in his Barbara Follett: The Department does not release Department and (ii) his Department’s Board members information about individual employee’s contractual who were senior civil servants was following the 2009 arrangements. pay award. [320800] Homelessness: Young People Barbara Follett: The following table sets out salary details of senior civil servants in the Department for Communities and Local Government following the 2009 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for pay award broken down into £5,000 bands. Communities and Local Government what plans his Department has to increase support for young homeless Within the below salary range people seeking permanent accommodation; and if he will make a statement. [307019] Highest £175,000 to £180,000 Lowest £55,000 to £60,000 Mr. Ian Austin: Government have recently provided Mean £80,000 to £85,000 £30 million capital funding over three years from Median £70,000 to £75,000 Communities and Local Government that will provide Mode £55,000 to £60,000 up to 500 new places in Foyers and specialist supported housing through the National Affordable Housing Of these senior civil servants eight were board members Programme. in 2009, and salary details of these are set out in the following table broken down into £5,000 bands. Since September the following allocations have been made: Within the below salary range Client group Grant (£) Units Highest £175,000 to £180,000 Teenage parents 3,228,924 43 Lowest £105,000 to £110,000 Young people at risk 6,562,003 134 Mean £145,000 to £150,000 Young people leaving care 90,000 2 Median £150,000 to £155,000 Total for supported housing 9,880,927 179 Mode n/a for 16 to 17-year-olds n/a = Not applicable. In addition local authorities provide a broad range of John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for assistance and support for all ages which young people Communities and Local Government how many senior will also benefit from. civil servants there were in his Department at the time of the 2009 pay award; how many of them received a The Supporting People programme provides revenue pay award excluding any bonuses; what the (a) lowest, funds for local authorities to commission housing related (b) highest, (c) mean, (d) median and (e) mode pay support services for vulnerable people in their area, to award was; and how many such officials (i) received a enable them to develop independent living skills. Data fully consolidated increase in salary and (ii) received a relating to the supply of and spend on Supporting pay award but no increase in salary. [320801] People housing related support services are collected retrospectively. The following table shows the national spend, per primary client group, for the year 2007-08 Barbara Follett: At the time of the 2009 pay award for the three ‘young person’ client groups reportable for 134 senior civil servants were included in the annual pay Supporting People. assessment for the main Communities and Local Government Department. Of these, 112 received a fully Supporting People spend on the three Young Person client groups consolidated increase in salary and one received a non- 2007-08 spend (£) consolidated pay award but no increase in salary. Teenage parents 23,403,241 The following table sets out the increases in salary of Young people at risk 124,728,170 the senior civil servants in the Department for Communities Leaving care 11,853,858 and Local Government following the 2009 pay award, broken down into £5,000 bands. Housing: Sustainable Development Within the range

Highest £10,000 to £15,000 Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Lowest £0 to £5,000 Communities and Local Government what recent Mean £0 to £5,000 assessment he has made of progress in the provision of Median £0 to £5,000 affordable sustainable homes; and whether his Department Mode £0 to £5,000 was represented at the Ecobuild exhibition and conference held in London in March 2010. [322554] 881W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 882W

John Healey: I receive regular reports on the performance Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. of the Homes and Communities Agency programmes Valuation officers are required under section 41 of which promote affordable sustainable homes. For example, the Local Government Finance Act 1988 every five in 2008-09, funding was allocated through the National years (starting on 1 April 1990) to compile and then Affordable Housing programme to support over 50,000 maintain accurate rating lists. New rating lists were homes being built to level 3 or above of the code for therefore required on 1 April 2005 The circumstances sustainable homes. Ninety per cent. of proposals I’ve leading to the review of the ports were explained in the approved under this year’s Local Authority New Build answer given to him on 2 March 2010, Official Report, programme are at code level 4. The Social Housing column 1153W. Energy Saving programme is delivering cavity wall insulation in an estimated 108,000 homes. Planning Permission: National Policy Statements The Department had a stand at the Ecobuild conference and exhibition held in March in London, as it has in Mr. Truswell: To ask the Secretary of State for previous years. I spoke at the conference and my right Communities and Local Government when he expects hon. Friend, the Secretary of State visited the event. to publish the guidance to local authorities on National Several CLG officials gave speeches, chaired sessions or Policy Statements referred to by Baroness Andrews on were present at the Department’s stand to answer questions 18 November 2008, Official Report, House of Lords, from visitors to the event. column 1019. [322394]

Non-Domestic Rates Mr. Ian Austin: The local authorities guidance will be published in due course. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Preventing Violent Extremism Community Leadership Communities and Local Government what the Fund combined rateable value of hereditaments in each local authority area is on the (a) 2005 and (b) draft 2010 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Rating List. [312098] and Local Government on what projects and programmes Preventing Violent Extremism funds will be spent in Barbara Follett [holding answer 20 January 2010]: I Northamptonshire in 2009-10. [321647] have placed in the Library of the House a table showing the total rateable value for all hereditaments in Local Mr. Malik: As my hon. Friend will be aware, this List for England broken down by billing authority on Department has, since April 2008, funded local authorities the 2005 and the draft 2010 Rating Lists as at 2 November to undertake Prevent work through Area Based Grant, 2009. These data are consistent with the statistical release which in line with Government policy is not ring-fenced. titled: “Non-domestic rateable values: 2010 Local Rating This means that local authorities themselves decide how Lists—England and Wales”, published on 18 December to support and deliver a diverse set of projects and 2009. A copy of this statistical release is available at the programmes at local level with the Prevent funding following link: provided by this Department. Funding is provided at a http://www.voa.gov.uk/publications/statistical_releases/ unitary or district level. Northampton borough council VOA_Statistics_Release_Final.pdf is receiving a total of £443,122 from 2008-09 to 2010-11, The rateable values have been rounded to the nearest as follows: £1,000. The five-yearly business rates revaluations make sure £ each business pays its fair contribution and no more by 2008-09 105,000 ensuring the share of the national rates bill paid by any 2009-10 143,292 one business reflects changes over time in the value of 2010-11 194,830 their property relative to others. The 2010 revaluation will not raise a single extra penny for Government. The local authority will be able to provide specific Over a million properties will see their business rate information on which projects and programmes are liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The being funded. Government intend to put in place a £2 billion relief Supported Housing: Young People scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill increases, which in 2010-11 will ensure no business property sees its rates bill increase by more than 11 per Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Secretary of State for cent. as a result of the revaluation, with maximum Communities and Local Government how many and increases capped at just 3.5 per cent. for small properties. what proportion of young people under the age of 19 That is on top of the wider support available to help years are living in supported housing schemes; and ease business pressures including discounted rate bills what the maximum weekly housing benefit payable to for small businesses and deferring tax payments. such people is. [320880] Mr. Ian Austin: Figures on the total number of young Non-Domestic Rates: Ports people living in supported housing schemes are not collected centrally. There is no universal definition of Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for supported housing, the different data sources CLG Communities and Local Government for what reasons collects contain information on different types of supported the Valuation Office Agency drew up a rating list in housing (therefore the two following data sets are not 2005 for port businesses. [322226] comparable). 883W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 884W

Of the 32,813 clients under the age of 19 years who During the same period, BPSS agreed 990 time to pay accessed housing related support services funded by the arrangements worth £20 million with businesses in Supporting People programme between 1 April 2008 Wolverhampton. and 31 March 2009, 15,155 (46 per cent.) entered supported housing. Mr. Purchase: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Continuous Recording (CORE) of lettings provides what estimate he has made of the monetary value of information on the number of supported housing lettings capital allowances to UK industry in the latest year for in the social housing sector. Between 1 April 2008 and which figures are available. [322262] 31 March 2009, CORE estimates that 15,200 new supported housing lettings were provided to households headed by Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The value to UK industry of a young person under 19. Of all under-19s receiving capital allowances arises from the tax relief given against new social housing lets, 60 per cent. were provided with profits from specific capital allowances on investment. supported housing. As set out in the 2009 pre-Budget report, the latest estimate of the value of the relief is £21,100 million for Those who live in either social or voluntary sector 2009-10: supported housing will have their housing benefit based on their actual rent, which may be limited to a reasonable http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr09_taxreadyreckoner.pdf amount for the property that they occupy where necessary. In the private sector, single young people aged under 25 Revenue and Customs: Data Protection have their rent restricted to that of shared accommodation, unless they are severely disabled or aged under 22 and Mr. Duncan Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the have previously been in care. Exchequer (1) what steps he plans to take to reduce the number of incidents of staff misuse of customer data at Trade Unions HM Revenue and Customs; and by what means he plans to inform the public of such steps; [317294] Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what steps are being taken in respect of HM Communities and Local Government how many staff Revenue and Customs staff found to have misused of (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) the customer data. [317295] Audit Commission are seconded to trade unions; what facilities are made available to those staff; how many Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) days other staff of each organisation spent on trade introduced a strategic objective to reduce incidences of union activity in the latest year for which figures are customer data misuse by at least 75 per cent. between available; and what recent estimate has been made of 2009 and 2012. The Department’s planned actions to the annual cost to the public purse of union activity by achieve this are set out in its annual business plan, with staff of each organisation. [320599] performance against the objective set out in its annual reports, both are available at: Barbara Follett: The main Department pays the cost http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/reports.htm of two full-time staff trade union representatives. In 2008-09 the total cost was approximately £95,000. CLG All instances of suspected misuse are thoroughly also pays the cost of a number of part time staff. The investigated and are subject to appropriate disciplinary total amount allocated for trade union activities for action, with penalties up to and including dismissal and 2008-2009 was £192,000, and the number of days staff criminal action. All departmental staff must attend in the Department spent on all trade union activities mandatory training to reinforce the consequences they was 1,075.50 days. face in the event of misusing customer data. Basic office facilities are available to these staff e.g. office space, telephones, desks, chairs, cupboards, personal Tax Collection computers and stationery. Records for CLG agencies and the Audit Commission Mr. Duncan Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the are not held centrally. Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the cost-effectiveness of recovering a debt in respect of which the due and payable date passed more than 12 months earlier; [317310] TREASURY (2) what the (a) age and (b) likelihood of recovery is of the debt owed to HM Revenue and Customs totalling Business: Government Assistance more than £27 billion at 31 March 2009; and how much such debt has been outstanding (i) less than six months, Mr. Purchase: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (ii) between six and 12 months, (iii) between 12 months how many businesses in Wolverhampton have been and two years, (iv) between two and three years and (v) visited by representatives of his Department’s time to for more than three years since the due and payable pay initiative during the recent recession. [322261] date; [317311] (3) what recent assessment he has made of HM Mr. Timms: Since its introduction on 24 November Revenue and Customs’ performance in the recovery of 2008 and up until 7 March 2010, HMRC’s Business taxes owed to the Government. [317333] Payment Support Service (BPSS) has agreed over 303,000 time to pay arrangements with businesses in the UK to Mr. Timms: The Committee of Public Accounts spread tax payments of just under £5.2 billion over a examined the Department in its 2009-10 report: ‘HM period they can afford. Revenue and Customs: Improving the Processing and 885W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 886W

Collection of Tax: Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Stamp Trade Unions Duty Land Tax and Tax Credits’ (HC 97) published on 10 December 2009 and available at: Mr. Syms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/ how many days staff of (a) his Department, (b) HM cmselect/cmpubacc/97/97.pdf Revenue and Customs and (c) the Valuation Office The Government will publish their responses to the Agency spent on trade union activity in the latest year Committee’s report in a Treasury minute in due course. for which figures are available; and what recent estimate The value and age of unpaid tax debts is shown on he has made of the annual cost to the public purse of page 96 of HM Revenue and Customs’ 2008-09 Trust such activity. [320616] Statement, available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/hmrc-accs-0809.pdf Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury has one member Other breakdowns of tax debt by age are available of staff, grade 7, who spends 0.60 (FTE) of time working only at disproportionate cost, as HMRC’s systems cannot as a trade union official. As fewer than five staff are readily produce these. employed to work as union officials it is not HM Treasury policy to provide salary information that could Taxation: Domicil be attributed to an individual. Mr. Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As already released in a Freedom of Information what definition of long-term resident of the UK is used Request of 25 September 2009, staff of HM Revenue for the purposes of determining a person’s tax status; and Customs spent 48,902 days on trade union activity and how many days per year are required to be spent in during the year 2008-09 at an estimated cost to the the UK in order to be eligible for that classification. Department of £5,918,065. [321406] The total number of days allocated to staff in the Valuation Office Agency for trade union activity in the Mr. Timms [holding answer 9 March 2010]: The term latest year was 4,861 days. The estimated cost of the ‘long-term resident’ only occurs in UK tax legislation in Valuation Office Agency trade union activity is £756,193. the context of defining individuals who are required to pay the £30,000 remittance basis charge introduced in Finance Act 2008 where it refers to those who have been Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments resident in the UK for at least seven out of the last nine years. Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer An individual’s residence status depends upon a number how many legal proceedings have been instigated for of different factors and is not simply a question of the recovery of tax credit overpayments in each quarter number of days spent in the UK. Further guidance on since April 2003; what the average overpayment outstanding residence and domicile issues is available at: is for which legal action has been instigated; what the http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/hmrc6.pdf total monetary value is of such overpayments; what Taxation: Gaming Machines estimate he has made of the average cost to the public purse of pursuing such cases through the courts; and Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much has been recovered through court action. what estimate he has made of the number of gaming [317146] machines in public houses which are not subject to Amusement Machine Licence Duty (AMLD); what Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) representations he has received in respect of the proposal initiates court action only as a last resort. to extend AMLD to include such machines; whether he The information requested in the following table. has (a) sought and (b) received advice from the Gambling Commission on the practical arrangements for regulating Tax credit cases entered into Court by HMRC such machines; and if he will make a statement. [320949] Total Value Average Value Number (£) (£)

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Revenue and Customs 2008-091 (HMRC) does not hold information on the nature of April-June 2008 1,090 7,649,000 7017 the businesses in which gaming machines are located as July-September 2,623 18,032,000 6874 this information is not necessary for the administration 2008 of Amusement Machine Licence Duty (AMLD). October- 887 6,465,722 7289 Treasury Ministers meet with, and receive representations December 2008 from, a wide range of organisations and individuals in January-March 1,719 10,889,145 6334 the public and private sectors as part of the usual 2009 policymaking process. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to 2009-102 provide details of all such representations. April-June 2009 792 4,184,128 5282 On 26 February, the Government announced a four- July-September 408 1,854,732 4545 month review of “skills with prizes” machines and the 2009 games played on them for the purposes of AMLD. This October- 249 2,356,757 9464 will be undertaken by HM Treasury and HMRC in December 2009 consultation with the Gambling Commission and the Notes: 1 Includes England and Wales and Scotland Department for Culture, Media and Sport. The review 2 will engage fully with all stakeholders. Includes England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland 887W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 888W

Information for 2006-07 and 2007-08 could be obtained Headcount1 only at disproportionate cost, as the data for these (total) FTE2 (total) periods is not centrally held by HMRC’s systems. No estimate has been made of the cost to the Exchequer Office of pursuing tax debt through Court Proceedings. 1. London (3 More London) 162 155.01 Information of the amount recovered through court 2. Manchester 209 193.09 action is only available at disproportionate cost, as 3. Birmingham 54 49.59 HMRC systems do not separately record the amount 4. Buckingham Palace Road 6 5.54 London recovered as a result of court proceedings as distinct from the amounts recovered from all stages of the 5. Glasgow 43 40.38 enforcement process. 6. Cardiff (Callaghan Sq) 39 34.47 7. Bangor 3 3.00 Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in how many individual tax credit cases which involved Vacant property overpayments made in (a) 2005-06, (b) 2006-07 and 8. Edinburgh (Old Tun) 0 0 (c) 2007-08 the claimants were prosecuted by his 9. Cardiff (Ty Nant Court) 0 0 Department for the purposes of recovering such 10. London (Fox Court) 0 0 overpayments in each year in which such prosecutions were initiated. [317581] Government Offices Bristol 2 2.00 Mr. Timms: The recovery of tax credit overpayments Cambridge 3 3.00 is a civil matter. Therefore, HM Revenue and Customs Guildford 3 3.00 (HMRC) does not prosecute but may seek action to Leeds 3 3.00 recover tax credit debt through the county court system Newcastle 3 3.00 in England and Wales, the Sheriff’s court in Scotland Nottingham 4 4.00 and the magistrates court in Northern Ireland. This is only done as a last resort. Scottish Government For information on the number of actions commenced in 2006-07 and 2007-08 I refer the hon. Member to the Edinburgh 1 1.00 answer given to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central-(Jenny Edinburgh/Glasgow split 6 6.00 Willott) on 26 November 2008, Official Report, column Total 541 506.08 1926W. Information for years prior to 2006-07 is only 1 Headcount equals number of EHRC employees excluding those on maternity leave, secondment out or career breaks. available at disproportionate cost, as it is not centrally 2 FTE equals full time equivalent. held by HMRC’s systems. Notes: HMRC can and does prosecute for fraud. 1. Six employees work between both Glasgow and Edinburgh sites. 2. The Buckingham Palace Road lease expired in April 2010 and staff are being transferred to the London HQ at 3 More London.

WOMEN AND EQUALITY CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Equality and Human Rights Commission Butterfly World Project

Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister for Women and Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Equality how many properties are (a) owned and (b) Media and Sport what recent meetings Ministers and leased by the Equality and Human Rights Commission; officials in his Department have had with representatives what the cost to the Commission was in the latest of Butterfly World Project Ltd. [320852] period for which figures are available; and how many Margaret Hodge: Neither Ministers nor officials from people work at each property. [321391] this Department have met with Butterfly World Project Ltd., as neither the people involved in running this Maria Eagle: The EHRC is independent and it manages world class attraction nor the local Member of Parliament its own affairs; the following is based on information it have asked for a meeting. has provided. Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings (a) No properties are owned by the Commission. (b) 10 properties are currently leased by the Commission. The Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission will release one of these with effect from 1 April Culture, Media and Sport how many (a) disciplinary 2010 and is actively seeking to release a further three from its and (b) capability procedures have been (i) initiated portfolio. In addition the Commission rents space in six Government Offices and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh. and (ii) completed in his Department in each of the last five years; how much time on average was taken to The cost of these arrangements was £3.6 million per complete each type of procedure in each such year; annum in 2009. how many and what proportion of his Department’s The numbers of people who work at each office staff were subject to each type of procedure in each location are shown in the table. Figures are taken from such year; and how many and what proportion of each the EHRC estates review presented to the EHRC Board type of procedure resulted in the dismissal of the in December 2009 and are the latest available. member of staff. [320636] 889W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 890W

Mr. Bradshaw: The Department for Culture, Media Estimated and Sport has not had any capability procedures initiated cost of and completed in each of the past five years. The Royal replacement Parks Agency has had two capability procedures initiated Works of Art Date Reported missing (£) and completed in the past five years, neither of which The Railway Station April Reported as missing 600 resulted in the dismissal of staff. print after W.P. Frith 2009 from DEFRA, The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has Ashdown House, had three disciplinary cases initiated and completed in London the past five years, resulting in two dismissals. The Derby Day print after April Reported as missing 600 Royal Parks Agency has had two disciplinary cases W.P. Frith 2009 from DEFRA, Ashdown House, initiated in the last five years, one of which has been London completed, neither resulting in dismissal. Leaving painting by May Reported missing 500 Neither the Department nor Agency keep a record of David Pugh Evans 2009 from British Deputy time spent on such cases. High Commission, Lagos, Nigeria House Plant 2/25 May09 Reported missing 500 1971 print by Boyd & from British Deputy Departmental Lost Property Evans High Commission, Lagos, Nigeria John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Evening Menu 31/70 May Reported missing 1600 Media and Sport what property has been recorded as 1975 print by Patrick 2009 from British High Caulfield Commission, Abuja, (a) lost and (b) stolen from his Department in the last Nigeria 12 months; and what estimate has been made of the Untitled string May Reported missing 3000 cost of the replacement of that property. [322072] hanging by Peter 2009 from British High Collingwood Commission, Abuja, Mr. Sutcliffe: During the last 12 months the following Nigeria items were recorded as lost or stolen. Museums and Galleries: Newcastle upon Tyne Estimated cost Recorded lost of replacement Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Item Date or stolen (£) Media and Sport (1) whether Arts Council England has Blackberry April 2009 Stolen 200 agreed a business plan for the Waygood Art Galley project, High Bridge, Newcastle; [321040] Secure remote June 2009 Lost 12.75 access token (2) how much (a) revenue and (b) capital funding Disc drive June 2009 Lost 25 Arts Council England has allocated to the Waygood Laptop July 2009 Stolen 800 Gallery project, High Bridge, Newcastle to date. Blackberry July 2009 Lost 200 [321041] Blackberry July 2009 Lost 200 Margaret Hodge: To date Arts Council England has Laptop July 2009 Stolen 800 been unable to agree a business plan with the Waygood Blackberry October 2009 Stolen 200 Gallery. Arts Council England has formally notified the Mobile phone October 2009 Stolen 120 Waygood Gallery that it is considering withdrawing Secure remote November Lost 12.75 revenue funding from the organisation. The final decision access token 2009 on Waygood Gallery’s long-term funding will be made Secure remote December Stolen 12.75 access token 2009 by Arts Council England’s north east regional council on 31 March 2010. The Arts Council and Newcastle Blackberry February Stolen £200 2010 city council are committed to working closely together to ensure the successful opening of the studios on High Bridge. During the last 12 months the following works of art have been reported missing from the Government Art Since 2001, £630,380 was allocated to Waygood Gallery Collection and are as yet un-located. through Arts Council England’s Regularly Funded Organisation programme and a further £49,778 was Estimated awarded through Arts Council England’s lottery funded cost of Grants for the Arts scheme. replacement £130,000 was allocated directly to Waygood Gallery Works of Art Date Reported missing (£) from Arts Council England’s capital budget. The Cathedral March Reported missing 250 Museums and Galleries: South West Church of St. Peter in 2009 from Department for Chichester print by Children, Schools Leonard Knyff and Families Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Sanctuary Buildings, Media and Sport what grants were awarded by the London Museums, Libraries and Archives Council to non-hub Bambridge on Trial April Reported missing 200 designated museums in the South West in 2009. [321199] for Murder by a 2009 from the Royal Committee of the Courts of Justice, Margaret Hodge: The Museums, Libraries and Archives House of Commons London Council (MLA) has supplied the information in the print after William Hogarth table of Renaissance grants awarded to non-designated museums in the South West in 2008-09. 891W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 892W

Some 2,000 of the remaining claims have been processed Designated collection holder Grant (£) and resulted in no payment being due. This situation Cheltenham Art Gallery 14,608 arises where, for example, farmers hold entitlements for Salisbury and South Wiltshire 14,133 the wrong area type, have submitted duplicate claim Museum forms or will receive payment from the devolved Tank Museum 15,000 Administrations. Wiltshire Heritage Museum 15,000 National Waterways Museum 15,000 Processing now continues on approximately 7,500 Roman Bath Museum 10,000 claims where no payment has been made to date and RPA is working to finalise these as quickly as possible. In the 2009-10 financial year, two further grants have Some of these are complex cases involving probate, been announced by the MLA for non-designated museums business partnership changes and domestic issues. It is in the South West and shown in the table. likely that work on these claims will reveal that some will not be eligible for payment. Claims which are Designated collection holder Grant (£) confirmed will be paid as soon as possible. Cheltenham Art Gallery and 100,000 The agency met its first 2009 SPS target of making Museum 75 per cent. of full payments by value, six weeks ahead Tank Museum 50,000 of its formal target date of the end of January 2010. It Theatre: Young People has now met the second of its formal targets of making 90 per cent. of full payments, by value, five weeks ahead of its formal date of the end of March 2010. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps his Department is taking RPA is on track to meet its EU target of making to encourage young people to use the (a) free theatre 95.238 per cent. of payments by value by the close of tickets available under the A Night Less Ordinary Scheme the payment window on 30 June 2010. and (b) the National Theatre Entry Pass. [320524] The following table shows the agency continues to Margaret Hodge: The Department provided Arts improve in making SPS payments. Council England with £2.5 million to deliver the A Night Less Ordinary scheme. This included a budget for 75 per cent. of 90 per cent. of payments made by payments made by the promotion of the scheme, including the creation of Scheme year value value the website: www.anightlessordinary.org.uk Individual theatres were also assessed on their plans to 2007 22 February 21 May market the scheme in their local area during the application process. 2008 22 January 16 March The National Theatre Entry Pass scheme is administered solely by the theatre. The Department does not centrally 2009 17 December 24 February promote either scheme. Processing continues on claims from all previous Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme years where no payment has been made to date Culture, Media and Sport how many young people and RPA is working to finalise these as quickly as have registered for the National Theatre Entry Pass to practicable. The following table shows a summary of date. [320660] these claims.

Margaret Hodge: To date, 14,814 young people have Number of claims Number of claims not registered for the National Theatre Entry Pass. Single Payment outstanding as at received full payment Scheme year 10 March 2010 as at 10 March 2010

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 2005 3 574 Agriculture: Subsidies 2006 6 629 2007 33 55

Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of 2008 84 100 State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the performance of Total 1126 1,358 the Rural Payments Agency in making payments to 1 Included within the 126 outstanding claims are three (2005), five farmers on time; and if he will make a statement. (2006), 29 (2007) and 64 (2008) claims that are complex cases involving [321975] probate, business partnership changes and domestic issues. It is likely that work on these claims will reveal that some will not be eligible for Jim Fitzpatrick: As of 25 February 2010 over 98,000 payment. farmers from the estimated total claimant population of 107,500 have received a full Single Payment Scheme Claims which have not received a full payment may (SPS) payment from the Rural Payments Agency (RPA). be due a top up payment once their entitlements have 90 per cent. of the estimated total fund of £1.86 billion been reviewed. Further such claims may arise from data has now been paid for SPS 2009. correction work within the Rural Payments Agency. 893W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 894W

Animal Feed characteristics of the installations and the number of installations affecting any particular location. Guidance Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for has been provided to local authorities, through the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his British Standards Institution and the Institute of Gas Department has estimated the effect on (a) the price of Engineers and Managers on how to apply good design animal feed and (b) the population of fish of a reduction and placement of chimney location and exit height to in the organic content of organic animal foods to below prevent significant impacts of units on air quality. 90 per cent. following the reclassification of fish as a Local authorities, in order to protect public health, non-agricultural ingredient; and if he will make a statement. have a number of existing powers to guide the outcome [322660] of developments incorporating biomass boilers through both the planning system and powers under the Clean Jim Fitzpatrick: Under EU rules, up to 5 per cent. of Air Act 1993. Taken together with the Renewable Heat the diet of organic livestock other than herbivores may Incentive, which encourages the uptake of cleaner currently consist of non-organic feed. After 1 January appliances, the impact of biomass boilers on air quality 2012 all organic livestock must be fed entirely on organically should be managed to avoid concentrations in excess of produced feed and there are concerns about providing a air quality objectives. 100 per cent. organic diet with a balanced protein content for pigs and poultry because of the difficulties with sourcing the correct protein ingredients for feed Bovine Tuberculosis for these animals. We are currently investigating with our Advisory Committee on Organic Standards how the use of fishmeal might contribute to a solution for Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of the problem, including the effects on the price of animal State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what feed and the sustainability of fish stocks from which the recent assessment he has made of trends in the fishmeal is sourced. incidence of bovine tuberculosis in (a) England and (b) Gloucestershire; and if he will make a statement. Animal Welfare [321974]

Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State Jim Fitzpatrick: The latest bovine Tuberculosis (bTB) for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he figures available for the first 11 months of 2009, compared plans to reply to the correspondence from Mr. Richard with the equivalent period in 2008, show the following: D. Hall of Blaydon on animal mutilation phenomena. [321206] England Gloucestershire Reactors slaughtered Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA and its agency, Animal Health, received several items of correspondence from 2008 23,631 2,169 Mr. Hall between May and September 2009, both directly 2009 23,068 2,031 and through my hon. Friend. I replied to my hon. Friend on 19 October, 2009 and regret the intervening New herd delay. breakdowns 2008 3,766 273 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, 2009 3,125 198 Food and Rural Affairs what recent representations he has received on the use of bolt guns to end the life of Confirmed new (a) domestic animals and (b) livestock; and if he will incidents per 100 test make a statement. [322281] in unrestricted herds 2008 5.46 13.69 Jim Fitzpatrick: In the last six months we have received 2009 4.69 10.93 three letters from members of the public and 15 from Notes: Members of Parliament on behalf of constituents regarding 1. Data from VetNet are produced three months in arrears and the latest report available is for November 2009. Comparative 2008 data the use of bolt guns to end the lives of domestic are shown up to November 2008. Therefore data cannot be provided animals. We have received no such letters on the use of for the last three months. bolt guns on livestock. 2. Data from VetNet are provisional and subject to change as more data become available. Biomass: Air Pollution Source: VetNet—Animal Health Database Mr. Ian Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Although the apparent year-on-year reduction in bTB Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what mechanisms incidence headline indicators (despite the increase in emissions from biomass boilers will be made compliant numbers of herds and animals tested for bTB in 2009) is with his Department’s Air Quality Strategy. [322265] welcome, the Government remain cautious and does not want to read too much into the short-term disease Jim Fitzpatrick: The aim of the air quality strategy trends, given the cyclical and multifactorial nature of for the UK is to protect public health by providing bTB incidence in the endemic areas. The incidence of mechanisms for compliance with a number of air pollution bTB in parts of England is still far too high for EU concentration objectives. standards and we continue to take the fight against the The impact of emissions of biomass boilers on air disease very seriously, not least because of the serious concentrations of pollutants will depend on the dispersion impact it has on farmers. 895W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 896W

We have a range of measures in place to help control not include the size of the herd as a predictive factor to spread of the disease including routine cattle testing, the model as no correlation was found between the size use of the gamma interferon blood test in prescribed of the herd and compliance with welfare legislation and circumstances, pre-movement testing, zero tolerance on welfare advisory codes. movement of cattle with overdue tests and encouraging All dairy cattle, in whatever system they are kept, are use of husbandry measures. In addition, vaccination of protected by comprehensive animal welfare legislation. cattle and/or badgers is potentially a valuable tool as In England, the welfare of cattle is protected by the part of a range of measures to control bovine TB. A Animal Welfare Act 2006 which makes it an offence to Badger Vaccine Deployment Project will take place in cause unnecessary suffering to any animal. The Act also six high incidence areas each of 100 sq km (25,000 contains a duty of care to animals—this means that acres) in England, starting in summer 2010. anyone responsible for an animal must take reasonable Breeding of Dogs Act 1991 steps to make sure the animal’s needs are met. These general requirements are supplemented by detailed requirements in the Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulations 2007 for calves and cattle such as Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent accommodation, tethering, inspection, feed and water. assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Poor welfare can exist in both intensive and extensive Breeding of Dogs Act 1991; [322458] systems. The most significant influence on the welfare (2) what funding his Department provides to local of livestock is the stock-keeper, not the system in which authorities to inspect outbuildings for breeding is it reared. establishments under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1991; [322460] Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 (3) what recent assessment he has made of the incidence of illegal dog breeding taking place in residential properties and outbuildings; [322461] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent (4) what recent representations he has received from assessment he has made of the effectiveness of local animal welfare charities on backstreet breeding of authorities’ statutory responsibilities for stray dog control dogs; and if he will make a statement; [322462] under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment (5) what estimate he has made of the number of dog Act 2005; [322465] breeding farms in England. [322524] (2) what assessment he has made of the impact of the dog control provisions in the Clean Neighbourhoods Jim Fitzpatrick: We have not made any recent assessment and Environment Act 2005 on animal rescue centres. as to the effectiveness of the Breeding of Dogs Acts1991. [322466] Any future assessment we make of current dog breeding legislation will be conducted in parallel with our Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has made no such assessment. consideration on the two recent reports into dog breeding by Professor Sir Patrick Bateson and the Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare. We have Dairy Farming regular discussions with animal welfare groups on a range of welfare topics, including the breeding of dogs. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, We have provided no such funding to local authorities Food and Rural Affairs if he will bring forward proposals to inspect outbuildings for breeding establishments, we to introduce a maximum size for dairy herds. [322052] have made no assessment of the incidence of illegal dog breeding taking place on residential properties and Jim Fitzpatrick: While we recognise the trend is towards outbuildings, and we have made no estimate of the fewer, larger dairy herds, we have no plans to introduce number of dog breeding farms in England. proposals on a maximum size for dairy herds. Cattle: Animal Welfare Dogs Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which assessment has been Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the effects on animal welfare of keeping dairy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent cattle in (a) very large herds and (b) herds kept largely representations he has received from animal welfare under a roof. [321319] charities on stray dog control services. [322467]

Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA is currently funding a three Jim Fitzpatrick: In the past year DEFRA has year project by the Scottish Agricultural College which corresponded with the Association of Dogs and Cats is investigating the management and welfare of continuously Homes, The Dogs Trust and the Battersea Dogs and housed cows. It will compare the health of cows in Cats Home about stray dog control services. continuously housed systems with those in summer grazing systems, by using culling and fertility data. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on this research is at an early stage, and is due to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent be completed at the end of June 2011. estimate he has made of the total dog population in In relation to herd sizes, in reviewing its risk model England; and if he will make a statement. [322468] for welfare inspections, Animal Health, the body responsible for enforcing animal welfare legislation in England, did Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has made no such estimate. 897W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 898W

Dogs: Crime flood maps first published in April 2010 was funded; and if he will make a statement. [322439] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA does not produce prosecutions there were for offences of each type under Ordnance Survey flood maps. The Environment Agency the Breeding of Dogs Act 1991 in 2009; and if he will publishes its maps showing the most up-to-date information make a statement; [322459] available on areas at risk of flooding on a quarterly basis. The next date for publication is the end of March (2) how many prosecutions there have been for dog 2010. The map and publication is funded by grant in aid control offences under the Town and Police Clauses from DEFRA. Act 1847 in each year since 1997; [322463] DEFRA is aware of a project initiated by Norwich (3) how many prosecutions there have been for dog Union working with Ordnance Survey to map flood control offences under the Metropolitan Police Act risk, but this project has not been funded by DEFRA. 1839 in each year since 1997. [322464] Government Car and Despatch Agency Jim Fitzpatrick: The number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences under, (i) Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Breeding Dogs Act 1991, (ii) Town and Police Clauses Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his Act 1847, in England and Wales 1997 to 2008 (latest Department paid to the Government Car and Despatch available) can be viewed in the table. Agency in each of the last five years; how much it has The Ministry of Justice Court Proceeding database spent on such payments in 2009-10; and what proportion cannot separately identify offences relating to dogs of such payments was made in respect of the Government under the Metropolitan Police Act 1839. Car Service. [316785] The Ministry of Justice advise that court proceedings data for 2009 are planned for publication in the autumn Dan Norris: The Department’s cumulative spend with of 2010. the Government Car and Dispatch Agency in each of Number of defendants proceeded against for selected offences relating the last five years and for the current year to January to dogs, England and Wales 1997 to 20081,2,3 2010 is shown in the following table. Intentionally obstructing or delaying any person in Total (£) Offence Offences in relation to the exercise of his powers description dogs of entry or inspection 2004-5 758,687.35 2005-6 1,198,282.79 Statute Town Police Clauses Act Breeding of Dogs Act 2006-7 906,287.79 1847, Sec 28(2) to (4) 1991 2007-8 709,682.06 1997 10 1 2008-9 694,574.07 1998 9 1 2009-101 543,727.83 1999 14 — Grand Total 4,811,241.89 2000 8 1 1 Part year to February 2010 2001 8 — Costs to the Department for ministerial cars are 2002 7 — reported annually to Parliament by my right. hon. 2003 8 — Friend the Secretary of State for Transport through 2004 1 — written ministerial statements and are available in the 2005 4 — Libraries of the House. 2006 4 — 2007 3 — Milk: Imports 2008 1 — 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they Food and Rural Affairs how many litres of milk a day were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is were imported on average in each of the last five years. imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more [322357] offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 15 March 2010]: 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Imports of liquid milk are shown in the tables. and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by Liquid milk is imported into the UK in two forms, as the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken raw milk for processing by dairies (table 1), or as liquid to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are drinking milk (e.g. pasteurised or UHT milk) (table 2). taken into account when those data are used. 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and Raw milk is only traded across the Irish border; August 2008. imports come from the Republic of Ireland for processing Source: by dairies in Northern Ireland. Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice Table 1: UK imports of raw milk for processing, 2005 to 2009 (all Floods: Maps imports across the Irish border) Imported per year Average imported per day (1,000 litres) (1,000 litres)1 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how the work of 2005 45,589 125 his Department in preparing the Ordnance Survey 2006 33,278 91 899W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 900W

Table 1: UK imports of raw milk for processing, 2005 to 2009 (all imports across the Irish border) Financial year Total spent on legal fees (£) Imported per year Average imported per day 2004-05 450,849 (1,000 litres) (1,000 litres)1 2005-06 437,927 2007 57,109 156 2006-07 185,347 2008 48,516 133 2007-08 289,014 2009 82,774 227 2008-09 559,812 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 1,000 litres. Total 1,922,949 Source: DARDNI The increase in fees for 2008-09 is due to historic long Table 2: UK imports of liquid drinking milk, 2005 to 20091 running cases which only culminated in that financial Imported per year Average imported per day year. 2 (1,000 litres) (1,000 litres) The costs incurred on the disposal of grain stores are 2005 47,066 129 not included in table above because they are accounted 2006 84,406 231 for separately. These costs are shown in the following 2007 87,668 240 table: 2008 134,068 366 20091 89,420 245 Financial year Total spent on legal fees (£) 1 2009 data is subject to amendments. 2004-05 65,877.02 2 Figures are rounded to the nearest 1,000 litres. 2005-06 72,665.80 Source: H M Revenue and Customs 2006-07 28,730.37 2007-08 18,730.31 Poultry: Animal Welfare 2008-09 15,097.98 Total 201,101.48 Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures include costs of external advice, litigation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) services and costs. prosecutions and (b) convictions there were for offences relating to unnecessary pain or distress caused to broiler and battery chickens in each of the last five years. [320407] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The 1 Carlton Gardens information requested cannot be provided because records are not held centrally. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Rural Payments Agency answer to the hon. Member for Pendle of 3 February 2010, Official Report, column 373W,on Carlton Gardens, what plans he has to extend the lease of 1 Carlton Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Gardens; and how much has been paid in council tax to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much it cost date on the residential element of the ministerial residence on average for the Rural Payments Agency to process at 1 Carlton Gardens since that residence became a single payment in the latest period for which unoccupied. [319802] information is available. [322494] Chris Bryant: We remain in negotiations with the Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 16 March 2010]: In Crown Estate over lease renewal. £4,295.56 has been their report ’A Second Progress Update on the paid in council tax from October 2007 to March 2010. Administration of the Single Payment Scheme by the Rural Payments Agency’, the National Audit Office Burma: Forced Labour calculated the average cost for administering a single payment scheme claim as £1,743. We are seeking ways Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of reducing this figure. and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has received recent reports on trends in the level of forced labour in Rural Payments Agency: Legal Costs Burma; and if he will make a statement. [322608] Mr. Ivan Lewis: We continue to be gravely concerned Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, that forced labour, including forced porterage and underage Food and Rural Affairs how much the Rural Payments military recruitment remain widespread practices, in Agency spent on legal advice in the last five years. marked and continued non-compliance with the Convention [320380] on Forced Labour. We note the co-operation, albeit limited, of the Burmese authorities with the International Jim Fitzpatrick: The legal expenditure for 2004-09 Labour Organisation (ILO) under the ILO’s Supplementary financial years including costs incurred by all RPA Understanding with the Government of Burma, which departments as published in the annual audited includes a complaints mechanism for victims of forced accounts is shown in the following table. It is not labour. We received a report from the ILO last November possible to distinguish between legal advice and other on progress in the implementation of the Supplementary legal expenditure. Understanding and expect a further progress report in 901W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 902W advance of the ILO Governing Body session on Burma Departmental Meetings next week. Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials in London and Rangoon are in regular contact with the Martin Salter: To ask the Secretary of State for ILO liaison officer in Rangoon, and met him most Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any of recently on 15 March. The EU presidency will make a his officials were present at meetings attended by Lord statement on behalf of member states at the ILO Governing Ashcroft and the right hon. Member for Richmond (a) Body next week. between 28 March and 3 April 2007 in Belize, Brazil, the Falkland Islands, Iceland, Panama, and the Turks and Caicos, (b) on 18 and 19 June 2007 in Syria, (c) Burma: Gems between 15 and 17 February 2008 in the United Arab Emirates, (d) between 13 and 15 May 2008 in Egypt, Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for (e) between 20 and 23 October 2008 in Bosnia and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia and Georgia, (f) between had recent discussions at EU level on the export of 2 and 4 November 2008 in Israel, (g) between 15 and gems originating in Burma from Asia to Europe. 17 March 2009 in Cuba, (h) on 21 October 2009 in the [322479] USA, (i) on 26 and 27 October 2009 in Qatar and (j) between 30 November and 2 December 2009 in China Mr. Ivan Lewis: There have been no recent discussions and Hong Kong. [322508] on this issue among EU member states. Sanctions were agreed after the crackdown on peaceful protests in late Chris Bryant: The information requested is not held 2008, and the EU imposed a ban on the import of gems centrally and is available only at disproportionate cost. from Burma, as well as prohibiting the provision of Departmental Surveys financial or technical assistance to entities engaged in the mining and processing of precious and semi-precious stones. These measures target the economic interests of Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the military regime and their cronies. Discussions will and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in the begin shortly in Brussels on the annual renewal of all Library a copy of the benchmark results of the Civil EU measures against Burma, due at the end of April. Service People Survey for his Department and its agencies. [322564] Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Chris Bryant: The 2009 People Survey results are now Department has made a recent assessment of the available in the Library. effectiveness of sanctions designed to prevent the export These results are also available on the Foreign and of gems originating in Burma to the EU. [322480] Commonwealth Office website at: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/publications-and- Mr. Ivan Lewis: Sanctions prohibiting the export of documents/publications1/annual-reports/staff-survey-2009 gems from Burma to the EU were introduced after the EU Countries: Overseas Workers crackdown on peaceful protests in late 2007, on the basis that the sector played a particular role in sustaining the military and their grip on power. No formal assessment Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of the effectiveness of the export ban has been made by and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what estimate he has the Government, but we continue to believe that targeted made of the number of British citizens working in sanctions are an important means of maintaining pressure other EU member states in each of the last 12 months; for political reform and respect for human rights in [320922] Burma. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of UK citizens working under contract in other EU member states in each of the last five years. [320924] Departmental Lost Property Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for does not hold data on the number of British nationals Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what property has working in other EU member states. The latest figures been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from his available for British nationals resident overseas were Department in the last 12 months; and what estimate collected in March 2007. I refer the hon. Member to the has been made of the cost of the replacement of that answer given by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 23 February 2010 to the hon. Member for property. [322076] Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) which shows the estimated number of British nationals resident in each Chris Bryant: I refer the hon. Member to the reply EU member state during 2006-07. given to him on 16 March 2009, Official Report, column 844W, by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln Greece: Death (Gillian Merron); namely, the information required is held separately in various Foreign and Commonwealth Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Office departments, all of which hold records relating and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department to various losses and thefts of both personal property has received a copy of the (a) coroner’s, (b) police and and official furnishings, including IT equipment losses. (c) toxicology report relating to the death of Stephen As this information is not held centrally, providing an Oliver; what recent discussions (i) he, (ii) officials in his accurate answer would incur disproportionate cost. Department and (iii) officials in the British Consulate 903W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 904W in Corfu have had with the government of Greece on Mr. Ivan Lewis: We condemn the appalling recent the case of Stephen Oliver; and if he will make a violence in the vicinity of the city of Jos, and call for the statement. [320244] Government of Nigeria to ensure those responsible for crimes are prosecuted, and to address the underlying Chris Bryant: We have not received a copy of the issues behind the violence. coroner’s, police or toxicology reports relating to Stephen My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has not Oliver’s death. In Greece, autopsy reports are not recently discussed violence in Jos with the Government automatically made available to the family of the deceased. of Nigeria, nor representatives of the Christian community If a report has not been released by the Greek coroner’s there. I raised our concerns with Chief Ojo Maduekwe, office only a specifically authorised person can make an the Nigerian Foreign Minister on 15 March. Our High application for it. As the Greek authorities consider us Commissioner in Abuja and senior Foreign and to be third party in this case, we are unable to request it. Commonwealth Office officials have discussed the issue The family have been advised to consider appointing at Ministerial level, including with the Secretary to the the services of a local Greek lawyer who could request it Government of the Federation on 8 March as well as on their behalf. This case has not been raised with the with representatives of the Christian community, including Greek Government by the Foreign and Commonwealth Catholic Archbishop Kaigama of Jos and Archbishop Office, nor have we been asked to do so. Onaiyekan of Abuja. Our High Commission also remains Intelligence Services in touch with Anglican Archbishop Kwashi of Jos. Overseas Residence: Death Mr. Davey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish the (a) current and (b) former policy guidelines issued by his Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Department to officers of those intelligence services and Commonwealth Affairs how many British citizens which fall within his responsibilities on interviewing have died whilst working in Corfu in each of the last prisoners abroad and on co-operating with interviews three years. [319758] conducted by other countries; and if he will make a statement. [321503] Chris Bryant: We do not keep records for the specific number of British citizens who have died while working, David Miliband: [holding answer 11 March 2010]: I but the number of deaths requiring consular action in refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Corfu were: Prime Minister’s response of 15 March 2010, Official Report, column 579W. Number Morocco: Christianity 2006-07 30 2007-08 23 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The total number of deaths reported to the vice-consulate and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has was: received on the treatment of persons with connections to the Christian community in Morocco; and whether 2008-09: 15. any UK citizens have been (a) deported and (b) threatened with deportation from Morocco in the last Sudan: Elections six months. [322045] Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our ambassador in Rabat was informed and Commonwealth Affairs how much funding his on the evening of 8 March that 12 British citizens were Department is providing to seek to ensure free and fair about to be, or had been, expelled from Morocco. elections in Sudan. [322713] 10 of these British citizens were accused of trying to convert Moroccan children living at the Village of Hope, Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our assistance towards elections in a Christian run home for abandoned children, to Sudan remains in line with that set out to my hon. Christianity. Two other individuals were also expelled, Friend by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department separately to those from the Village of Hope. for International Development (Mr. Thomas) on 27 January 2010, Official Report, column 895W. In the last six months five other UK citizens have been deported from Morocco. These cases were linked We have continued to urge all parties to ensure that to immigration matters not proselytising. We are not credible elections take place in an atmosphere of political aware of any UK citizens that have been threatened freedom. My noble Friend, the Minister for Africa, with deportation. Glenys Kinnock, met with EU Chief Observer, Veroniqe De Keyser this week to discuss plans for the EU Election Nigeria: Politics and Government Observation Mission in Sudan.

Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign UN Commission on the Status of Women and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent discussions he has had with the Government of Nigeria on Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for violence in the vicinity of Jos; [322102] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the outcomes (2) what recent discussions he has had with were of the 54th session of the UN Commission on the representatives of the Christian community from Jos. Status of Women; and if he will make a statement. [322103] [322591] 905W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 906W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The 54th session of the Commission attend full-time education because they care for others on the Status of Women met at the UN from 1-12 in their family; and if he will make a statement. March. The UK, along with other member states and [320838] representatives of non-governmental organisations and UN bodies, participated actively in the meeting, including Dawn Primarolo: These data are not held centrally. at ministerial level. Supporting young carers and their families is a priority The Commission reviewed progress in implementing for this Government. Young carers, like all children and the 1995 Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, young people, are entitled to enjoy their childhood and the internationally agreed agenda for women’s should not have to take on levels of caring that may be empowerment and gender equality, and identified the harmful to their education or health. Where young remaining obstacles and challenges to the full realisation carers and their families need additional support this of all human rights by women. The Commission adopted should be provided. a political declaration in which member states pledged to work harder to ensure the full implementation of the Children: Databases Beijing Declaration. In addition, the Commission also adopted a number of resolutions on issues including HIV/AIDS; female genital mutilation; women’s economic Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State empowerment; and maternal mortality and morbidity. for Children, Schools and Families whether ContactPoint It also agreed a text supporting the establishment of a uses (a) unique pupil numbers and (b) unique learner new UN body devoted to gender equality and women’s numbers to identify children. [319611] rights through the consolidation of four existing UN offices which work on gender issues. Dawn Primarolo: A unique identity number is used to The UK remains committed to working with all identify each child record on ContactPoint. This number other UN member states including through the Commission is generated by ContactPoint and is only used for the on the Status of Women to achieve gender equality and purposes of identifying a record on ContactPoint. equal rights for women. Unique pupil numbers and unique learner numbers are not held as part of every ContactPoint record. It is possible however, for either of these numbers to be sent to ContactPoint with new information supplied by a CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES data source as their chosen reference number. This can be any number used by the data source to identify a Building Schools for the Future Programme: Lancashire record on their system and is used to help match new information to an existing record on ContactPoint. For Janet Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for example all information supplied to ContactPoint by Children, Schools and Families for what reasons his the National Pupil Database has the unique pupil number Department requested Lancashire county council to included as the source system’s reference number. remove Whitworth Community High School from its Building Schools for the Future bid. [315557] Children: Human Trafficking Mr. Coaker: Lancashire county council’s ‘Readiness to Deliver’, submitted in September 2009, did not sufficiently Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for address how its proposals for BSF would manage the Children, Schools and Families what steps his Department issue of surplus capacity in some of its schools. Whitworth is taking to introduce a system of guardianship for Community High School in particular has a projected child victims of trafficking. [320760] high level of surplus capacity. The authority was invited to revise its ‘Readiness to Dawn Primarolo: The issue of guardianship for Deliver’. Rather than delay entry into the programme, unaccompanied minors, some of whom may be victims the authority chose to resubmit a revised scope of of trafficking, was given careful consideration in the schools which did not include Whitworth Community last session of Parliament during the debates on the High School, with the intention of addressing the pupil Children and Young Persons Act 2008. place planning issues in a later phase. Unaccompanied, potentially trafficked children will usually enter local authority care and their needs and Children in Care: Missing Persons interests are best protected by the professionals involved in their care working well together and fulfilling their Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for statutory responsibilities to the high standards required. Children, Schools and Families how many children These professionals will include the child’s social worker have gone missing from local authority care in each and carers, as well as staff responsible for supporting local authority in each of the last five years. [320758] them to make their claim for asylum in the UK. Each child must also be allocated an Independent Reviewing Dawn Primarolo: The information has been placed in Officer (IRO) who is responsible for chairing regular the House Libraries. reviews of their care plans. IROs must make sure that the child understands the plan for their care and is able Children: Carers to take an active part in making this plan. The IRO will need to make a relationship with each child to help Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for them understand the full range of their rights and Children, Schools and Families what his Department’s entitlements, including their right to access independent latest estimate is of the number of children unable to advocacy support. 907W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 908W

The addition of a “guardian” to this framework risks fully fund the September Guarantee in increasing 16 to adding further complexity and possible duplication to 18 participation to a record 1.6 million learner places, existing arrangements which involve a significant number and to meet the Department’s 2010-11 efficiency savings of professional and concerned individuals. This could commitment. be confusing for children themselves and we need to ensure plans for their care and for processing their GCSE claims for asylum are effectively co-ordinated. Mr. Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Free School Meals Children, Schools and Families whether he has made an assessment of the merits of adapting GCSE courses Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for and assessments to take account of the requirements of Children, Schools and Families how many and what students. [321288] percentage of pupils eligible for free school meals at the Mr. Iain Wright: It is for Ofqual as the independent age of 15 progressed to a sixth form college in the most regulator of qualifications to set criteria for the development recent year for which figures are available. [318471] by awarding bodies of GCSE assessments to a common standard. Working to those criteria awarding bodies Mr. Coaker: According to estimates from the DCSF can seek to adapt their exam specifications to meet the matched administrative dataset around 9 per cent. of needs of different learners to whom they offer exams. It young people (or 7,000 out of 77,000) who had been in is for Ofqual to regulate the resulting qualifications. receipt of free school meals age 15 in 2006/07 were in full-time education in sixth form colleges in England in Section 129 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children 2007/08. In addition another 37 per cent. were studying and Learning Act 2009 sets out the general duties of in FE colleges and 22 per cent. in schools sixth forms Ofqual. It requires Ofqual to have regard to the reasonable making a total of 68 per cent. in full-time education. requirements of those who are seeking to obtain or who This compares with a rate of 60 per cent. in full-time might reasonably be expected to seek to obtain regulated education in 2004/05 for the cohort who had been in qualifications, including those with learning difficulties receipt of free school meals age 15 in 2003/04. But it also makes it clear that speaking a different language to that from the language of the teaching or Further Education assessment does not itself constitute a learning difficulty. GCSE: Leeds Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families if he will take steps to John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, provide the same funding to further education students Schools and Families (1) what percentage of year 11 on the same course at a college and a school sixth form. pupils at state schools in Leeds city area achieved five or [321864] more A* to C GCSEs in each year since 1992; [306596] (2) what percentage of year 11 pupils at state schools Mr. Iain Wright: Funding for students in colleges and in Leeds West constituency achieved five or more grade school sixth forms has increased 72 per cent. in seven A* to C GCSEs in each year since 1992. [306598] years. We have delivered our commitment to close the funding gap for like for like learning between schools Mr. Coaker: The requested figures are provided in the and colleges by 8 percentage points by the end of the following table for all maintained schools including 2008/09 academic year, and we are committed to closing academies and City Technology Colleges. Figures before it further as funding allows. Our policy priority is to 1997 can be provided only at disproportionate cost. fund the September Guarantee to ensure every 16 and Percentage of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving 5+ A*-C 17-year-old who wants one has a suitable place in GCSEs or equivalent1 education and training. Leeds West constituency Leeds local Year2 (school location based) authority Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families whether he plans to 1997 24.2 37.4 take steps to ensure that funding allocations to further 1998 20.3 37.9 education students on the same course at a college and 1999 22.5 39.4 in school sixth form are made at the same level. 2000 25.2 40.4 [322249] 2001 20.9 39.6 2002 22.7 42.4 Mr. Iain Wright: Funding for students in colleges and 2003 25.7 44.4 school sixth forms has increased 72 per cent. in seven 2004 26.1 45.4 years. We have delivered our commitment to close the 2005 32.4 49.7 funding gap for like for like learning between schools 2006 38.7 52.2 and colleges by 8 percentage points by the end of the 2007 40.5 55.9 2008/09 academic year, and we are committed to closing 2008 49.3 62.5 it further as funding allows. Our priority is to fund the 20093 53.0 67.4 September Guarantee to ensure every 16 and 17-year-old 1 From 1997/98 includes GNVQ equivalences and from 2003/04 who wants one has a suitable place in education and includes other equivalents approved for use pre-16. training. 2 Percentages are based on pupils aged 15 from 1997 to 2004. From 2005 onwards, percentages are based on pupils at the end of Key Funding allocations for 2010/11 are currently being Stage 4. finalised and have been made on the same funding rate 3 Figures for 2009 are based on revised data while earlier years are basis as the 2009/10 allocations. This was in order to final figures. 909W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 910W

Hotels Pupils in maintained schools1 achieving Level 2 or above at Key Stage 1 by IDACI decile2, 3 of pupil residence4 in 20045, 6 and 20095 Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Most deprived Least deprived Schools and Families how many separate bookings for 10 per cent. 10 per cent. stays at five star or above hotels were made through the Expotel contract by his Department in the last Percentage 70.7 91.6 12 months; and at what cost. [315254] 2009 Number 51,967 42,636 Percentage 71.0 91.0 Ms Diana R. Johnson: Hotel bookings for stays at five star or above hotels made by the Department for Children, Schools and Families using Expotel for the Key Stage 1 period 1 January 2009 to 31 December 2009 is: Mathematics One booking at cost of £100.75. 2004 Number 64,002 49,537 Data has been provided by Expotel. Percentage 83.9 96.1 Mass Media: GCSE 2009 Number 60,663 44,760 Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage 82.9 95.6 Children, Schools and Families how many pupils (a) eligible and (b) not eligible for free school meals sat GCSE media studies in 2009. [315524] Key Stage 1 Science Mr. Coaker: In 2009, 60,047 pupils at the end of key 2004 Number 62,159 49,663 stage 4 were entered for GCSE examinations in media, Percentage 81.2 96.3 film and television studies. Of these 7,314 pupils were known to be eligible for free school meals, 52,715 were 2009 Number 58,977 44,864 not eligible for free school meals and there were 18 pupils Percentage 80.6 95.8 for whom free school meal eligibility could not be determined. 1 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including These figures relate to pupils in maintained schools Academies and City Technology Colleges). 2 Income Deprivation Affecting Children Index. only, including CTCs and academies. Information collected 3 IDACI bands for 2008 and 2009 are based on 2007 IDACI scores. on free school meals forms part of the School Census Care should be taken when comparing to IDACI tables for 2007 and which is only carried out in maintained schools. This earlier which are based on 2004 IDACI scores. free school meal information is then linked to attainment 4 Only includes pupils who are resident in England. Excludes pupils data. It relates to those pupils known to be eligible to with missing or invalid postcode information. 5 Data are final. receive free meals rather than those in receipt of free 6 In 2004, new assessment arrangements where only teacher meals. assessments (informed by task/test results) were reported were trialled in some LAs. 2004 figures for reading, writing and maths are National Curriculum Tests based on a combination of test/task and teacher assessment, 2005 and later are based on teacher assessment. 2004 Science figures are based on teacher assessment only. Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Pupils in maintained schools1 achieving Level 2B2 or above at Key Children, Schools and Families how many and what Stage 1 by IDACI decile3, 4 of pupil residence5 in 20046, 7 and 20096 proportion of children in the 10 per cent. (a) most and Most deprived Least deprived (b) least deprived areas of the country achieved at 10 per cent. 10 per cent. least level (a) 2, (b) 2b and (c) 3 in each subject at Key Key Stage 1 Stage 1 in each year since such assessments were Reading introduced. [317743] 2004 Number 43,298 43,273 Percentage 56.7 84.0 Mr. Coaker: The requested information is given in the following tables for 2004 and 2009. Figures for all 2009 Number 43,922 39,648 years can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Percentage 60.0 84.6 Pupils in maintained schools1 achieving Level 2 or above at Key Stage 1 by IDACI decile2, 3 of pupil residence4 in 20045, 6 and 20095 Key Stage 1 Most deprived Least deprived Writing 10 per cent. 10 per cent. 2004 Number 35,961 39,251 Percentage 47.2 76.2 KeyStage1 Reading 2009 Number 33,841 34,952 2004 Number 57,187 48,131 Percentage 46.2 74.6 Percentage 74.9 93.4 2009 Number 55,540 43,583 Key Stage 1 Percentage 75.9 93.0 Mathematics 2004 Number 48,211 44,916 Percentage 63.2 87.2 KeyStage1 Writing 2009 Number 45,392 40,104 2004 Number 53,885 47,165 Percentage 62.0 85.6 911W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 912W

1 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including Pupils in maintained schools1 achieving Level 3 or above at Key Stage Academies and City Technology Colleges). 1 by IDACI decile2, 3 of pupil residence4 in 20045, 6 and 20095 2 Level 2B can only be achieved in Reading, Writing and Maths. Most deprived Least deprived 3 Income Deprivation Affecting Children Index. 10 per cent. 10 per cent. 4 IDACI bands for 2008 and 2009 are based on 2007 IDACI scores. Care should be taken when comparing to IDACI tables for 2007 and Percentage 11.2 33.3 earlier which are based on 2004 IDACI scores. 5 Only includes pupils who are resident in England. Excludes pupils with missing or invalid postcode information. Key Stage 1 6 Data are final. Science 7 In 2004, new assessment arrangements where only teacher 2004 Number 10,767 20,335 assessments (informed by task/test results) were reported were Percentage 14.1 39.4 trialled in some LAs. 2004 figures for reading, writing and maths are based on a combination of test/task and teacher assessment, 2005 2009 Number 7,876 16,501 and later are based on teacher assessment. 2004 Science figures are Percentage 10.8 35.2 based on teacher assessment only. 1 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including Pupils in maintained schools1 achieving Level 3 or above at Key Stage Academies and City Technology Colleges). 1 by IDACI decile2, 3 of pupil residence4 in 20045, 6 and 20095 2 Income Deprivation Affecting Children Index. Most deprived Least deprived 3 IDACI bands for 2008 and 2009 are based on 2007 IDACI scores. 10 per cent. 10 per cent. Care should be taken when comparing to IDACI tables for 2007 and earlier which are based on 2004 IDACI scores. KeyStage1 4 Only includes pupils who are resident in England. Excludes pupils Reading with missing or invalid postcode information. 2004 Number 11,965 21,994 5 Data are final. Percentage 15.7 42.7 6 In 2004, new assessment arrangements where only teacher assessments (informed by task/test results) were reported were 2009 Number 10,031 18,555 trialled in some LAs. 2004 figures for reading, writing and maths are Percentage 13.7 39.6 based on a combination of test/task and teacher assessment, 2005 and later are based on teacher assessment. 2004 Science figures are based on teacher assessment only. KeyStage1 Source: Writing National Pupil Database 2004 Number 6,348 12,708 Percentage 8.3 24.7 Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 Number 4,122 9,546 Children, Schools and Families how many and what Percentage 5.6 20.4 proportion of children in receipt of free school meals achieved at least level 3 in each subject at key stage 1 in KeyStage1 each year since the introduction of such assessments. Mathematics [317746] 2004 Number 12,705 21,294 Percentage 16.7 41.3 Mr. Coaker: The requested information is given in 2009 Number 8,184 15,576 the following table.

Percentage of pupils achieving each level in key stage 1 assessments by free school meals eligibility, 2002-09: England Percentage of pupils achieving Number of Working eligible Absent/ towards pupils Unable Disapplied level 1 1 2C 2B 2A 3 4 2+

Reading 2002 106,152 — — ———————69 2003 102,793 — — ———————69 2004 106,726 — — ———————70 2005 101.276 0 0 8 22 18 24 17 11 0 70 2006 95,430 0 0 8 23 18 24 17 10 0 69 2007 94,221 0 0 8 24 17 23 18 11 0 69 2008 90,838 0 0 7 24 17 23 18 10 0 69 2009 92,439 0 0 6 23 17 24 18 11 0 71 Writing 2002 (Writing) 106,153 — — ———————72 2002 (Spelling) 106,151 — — ———————61 2003 102,794 — — ———————64 2004 108,728 — — ———————66 2005 101,285 0 0 11 22 26 23 12 5 0 66 2006 95.430 0 0 11 24 26 22 12 5 1—65 2007 94,221 0 0 11 26 26 22 11 4 0 83 2008 90,637 0 0 10 26 26 22 11 4 1—64 2009 92,437 0 0 8 26 26 24 12 4 0 86 Mathematics 2002 106.152 — — ———————81 913W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 914W

Percentage of pupils achieving each level in key stage 1 assessments by free school meals eligibility, 2002-09: England Percentage of pupils achieving Number of Working eligible Absent/ towards pupils Unable Disapplied level 1 1 2C 2B 2A 3 4 2+

2003 102,794 — — ———————80 2004 108,728 — — ———————80 2005 101,301 0 0 5 13 25 26 21 10 0 81 2006 95,430 0 0 5 14 25 26 20 8 1—80 2007 94,221 0 0 5 15 23 26 21 9 0 80 2008 90,638 0 0 5 16 23 26 21 9 1—79 2009 92,455 0 0 4 16 23 28 20 9 0 80 Science 2005 101,306 0 — 3 18 — 68 — 11 0 78 2006 95.423 0 — 3 19 — 68 — 10 0 78 2007 94,218 0 — 3 19 — 68 — 9 0 77 2008 90,638 0 — 3 19 — 68 — 9 0 77 2009 92,425 0 — 3 19 — 69 — 9 0 78 1 Indicates figure suppressed due to small cohort size. Notes: 1. Pupil level collection of FSM eligibility began with the 2002 School Census, therefore no data is available prior to 2002. 2. Figures prior to 2004 are based on tests, 2004 are based on a combination of test and teacher assessment, 2005 and later based on teacher assessment. 3. Science figures are unavailable prior to 2005 as science test results were not collected centrally. 4. In 2003 significant changes were introduced to the assessment of writing. A separate level for spelling was not reported separately, instead marks for spelling contributed to the pupils’ writing level and there was a new mark scheme for the two writing tasks. 5. Level distributions prior to 2005 are not available. 6. Percentages rounded to nearest percentage point. 7. Data covers maintained schools only.

Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, KS2 test level–Maths (percentage) Schools and Families whether his Department has made a recent assessment of the correlation between Teacher assessment teacher assessment and results in Key Stage (a) 1 and level–Maths Below 3 3 4 5 (b) 2; and if he will make a statement. [320767] Below 3 84 16 1 0 3 7 72 20 0 4 0 88012 Mr. Coaker: The Department only collects teacher 5 0 01387 assessment results at the end of key stage 1 and so no such analysis is available for that key stage KS2 test level–Science (percentage) An analysis of the level of agreement between the Teacher 2009 key stage 2 (KS2) teacher assessment and national assessment curriculum test results is provided in the following level–Science Below 3 3 4 5 tables. Below 3 76 19 4 0 Analysis of these data indicates that there is a good 3 4 52 42 2 match between test performance and teacher assessment 4 0 57421 data. When interpreting these data, it should be borne 5 0 01486 in mind that national curriculum test and teacher assessment Note: The figures work across the table, so for a given teacher assessment data will not always correlate. This is because tests level it shows the distribution of test levels achieved. Taking English provide a snapshot of attainment at the end of the key as an example, of those pupils who were teacher assessed at level 4, 79 stage whereas teacher assessment takes into account per cent. achieved a level 4 in the test; 7 per cent. achieved one level evidence of attainment in a variety of contexts (such as below and 14 per cent. achieved one level higher. discussion and observation), throughout the year. Both Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, are vital to ensure rounded, and validated, assessments Schools and Families how much his Department spent can be made about each child’s performance. on the administration of the national tests in the latest year for which figures are available; and if he will make KS2 test level–English (percentage) a statement. [320768] Teacher assessment Mr. Coaker: The Qualifications and Curriculum level—English Below 3 3 4 5 Development Agency’s (QCDA) estimate of the costs of delivering the national curriculum tests for key stage Below 3 82 17 1 0 1 and key stage 2 for the 2008-09 financial year was 3 6 63 30 0 £21,755,000.00. These costs are net of the £19,500,000.00 4 0 77914cash settlement received by QCDA, following termination 5 0 02674of the test operations contract with ETS Global BV (ETS) in 2008. 915W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 916W

National Safeguarding Delivery Unit 2004/05: Table 11 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000662/ Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for index.shtml Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer 2005/06: Table 8 of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 312W, on http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000733/ National Safeguarding Delivery Unit: standards, in index.shtml which month he expects the further progress report to 2006/07: Table 9 be published. [319069] http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000793/ index.shtml Dawn Primarolo: The National Safeguarding Delivery 2007/08: Table 9 Unit will publish its further progress report later this month. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000860/ index.shtml Pupil Exclusions Data on pupils permanently excluded for carrying a knife or other weapon onto school premises is not separately identified. There are categories for verbal Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for abuse/threatening behaviour and physical assault. Children, Schools and Families how many pupils have been permanently excluded from schools in England The latest data available is for 2007/08; information and Wales for assaulting (a) a member of staff and on exclusions for 2008/09 is expected to be published in (b) a fellow pupil in each of the last five years. the summer 2010. [320547] In 2005/06, data on reasons for a permanent exclusion were collected from secondary schools only. Mr. Coaker: The available information on reasons for The Department does not hold the requested information a permanent exclusion is published as follows: for Wales. Information relating to Wales is available 2003/04: Table 11 from the Welsh Assembly Government. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000582/ Pupils: Learning Disability index.shtml 2004/05: Table 11 Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000662/ Schools and Families what estimate has been made of index.shtml the number of learners with a learning difficulty and/or 2005/06: Table 8 a learning disability whose education provision will be funded by the Young People’s Learning Agency in (a) http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000733/ index.shtml 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [322358] 2006/07: Table 9 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000793/ Mr. Iain Wright [holding answer 15 March 2010]: index.shtml The number of learners aged 16 to 18 learning in 2007/08: Table 9 mainstream provision with a self-declared learning difficulty http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000860/ and/or disability has been around 120,000 each year index.shtml from 2006/07 to 2008/09 academic year. These were The latest data available is for 2007/08; information funded through the Learning and Skills Council (LSC). on exclusions for 2008/09 is expected to be published in The figure includes 4,000 in specialist provision, and it the summer 2010. is estimated there are around 4,000 in the age group 19 to 25 with high level needs. Estimates for future numbers Data on reasons for exclusion includes information are based on this evidence. on physical assault against an adult, but not specifically against teachers or school staff. For the 2010/11 academic year responsibility for funding learners with learning difficulties and/or disabilities aged In 2005/06, data on reasons for a permanent exclusion 16 to 18 and between 19 and 25 with high level needs were collected from secondary schools only. will pass to the Young People’s Learning Agency and The Department does not hold the requested information local authorities. for Wales. Information relating to Wales is available from the Welsh Assembly Government. Schools: Swimming

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Children, Schools and Families how many pupils have Schools and Families what steps he is taking to ensure been permanently excluded from schools in England that all schoolchildren have access to swimming lessons and Wales for (a) alcohol-related incidents, (b) within school hours. [321716] drug-related incidents and (c) carrying a knife or other Mr. Iain Wright: As part of the primary school weapon onto school premises in each of the last five national curriculum all school children receive lessons years. [320548] in swimming during school hours The Department’s PE and Sport Strategy for Young People (PESSYP) also Mr. Coaker: The available information on reasons for funds the top up school swimming programme through a permanent exclusion is published as follows: a grant that enables School Sports Partnership to deliver 2003/04: Table 11 additional swimming, during the curriculum, to pupils http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000582/ in Key Stage 2 who are not yet able to swim unaided index.shtml over a distance of 25 metres. 917W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 918W

September Guarantee Teachers: City of York

Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for for Children, Schools and Families what his estimate is Children, Schools and Families (1) how many full-time of the number of children attending school or college equivalent (a) teachers, (b) teaching assistants and (c) courses as direct result of the September Guarantee in support staff there were in local authority schools in (a) England and (b) Coventry. [321412] the City of York in each year since 1996’ [322114] (2) what the average pupil to teacher ratio was in (a) Mr. Iain Wright [holding answer 11 March 2010]: primary and (b) secondary schools in York in each The Department for Children Schools and Families year since 1996. [322116] publishes annual estimates of the number of 16-17 year olds participating in education and work based learning Mr. Coaker: York became a new local authority on in each local authority. 1 April 1997 and therefore the information requested is not available for 1996. Figures for (a) England and (b) Coventry are shown in the following table. The information requested for full-time equivalent teachers, teaching assistants and support staff in 1997, 2007 20081 2001 to 2009 is published in tables 19, 25 and 26 of the Statistical First Release (SFR) ’School Workforce in England 1,113,400 1,333,400 England (including local authority level figures) January Coventry 7,100 n/a 2009 (Revised)’ published on 29 September 2009. The 1 Provisional. SFR is available at the following web link: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ England figures for 2009 and local authority figures Tables19to27v2.xls for 2008 are due to be published in June 2010. The equivalent information requested for 1998 to The September Guarantee aims to ensure that all 16 2000 is published in tables 18, 23 and 24 of the Statistical and 17 year olds are offered a suitable place in learning. First Release (SFR) ’School Workforce in England Statistics show that record numbers of young people (including pupil: teacher ratios and pupil: adult ratios) are now participating in learning. This is enabling them January 2007 (Revised)’ published on 27 September to build the skills they need to make a successful transition 2007. The SFR is available at the following web link: to sustainable employment. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000743/ SFR29_2007_FinalTables18-25.xls The following table provides the pupil teacher ratios Teachers in local authority maintained primary and secondary schools in York local authority, in each January, 1997 to Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009. Children, Schools and Families how many qualified Pupil:teacher ratios (PTRs)1 in local authority maintained primary teachers below retirement age were not teaching in the and secondary schools, Years: each January, 1997 to 2009, Coverage: state sector in (a) 1997, (b) 2005 and (c) the latest York local authority year for which figures are available. [317817] Primary Secondary January Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the number 1997 24.3 16.3 of teachers with qualified teacher status aged below 60, 1998 24 6 16.2 the normal retirement age for those teachers who first 1999 23.5 16.7 entered service before 1 January 2007, who were not 2000 24.6 18.4 recorded in service in state maintained schools in England 2001 22.9 16.6 in March 1997, 2005 and 2008, the latest information 2002 22.0 16.0 available. 2003 22.0 16.0 Qualified teachers aged under 601 not recorded in service2 in state 2004 22.7 16.0 3 maintained schools , March 1997, 2005 and 2008—England 2005 23.0 15.6 Teachers 2006 21.7 15.9 1997 509,360 2007 21.7 16.3 2005 503,410 2008 21.4 15.7 20084 483,760 2009 21.6 15.7 1 Teachers age at March of each year. 1 The PTR is calculated by dividing the total FTE number of pupils 2 Figures include teachers who never entered service, have left service on roll in schools by the total FTE number of qualified teachers both permanently and temporarily and those in service in other regularly employed in schools. sectors or outside England. They exclude teachers who are receiving a Source: pension or those recorded in occasional service in the state maintained School Census sector. 3 State maintained schools include local authority maintained schools, Teachers: Early Retirement City Technology Colleges and academies. 4 Provisional. Note: Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Children, Schools and Families how many teachers Source: took early retirement in (a) 1997, (b) 2005 and (c) the Database of Teacher Records. latest year for which figures are available. [317818] 919W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 920W

Mr. Coaker: I refer the hon. Member to the answer in (A) total, (B) each primary care trust and (C) each given to the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds cancer network in each year since 1997-98; and what the (Mr. Ruffley) on 9 February 2010, Official Report, cost was to the public purse of those bed days accounted column 903W. for by patients with each type of cancer. [322244]

Teachers: Wolverhampton Ann Keen: Information on the finished consultant episode bed days in which an elective and emergency Mr. Purchase: To ask the Secretary of State for admission took place and where the primary diagnosis Children, Schools and Families how many teachers was lung cancer, bowel cancer, upper gastrointestinal were employed in state schools in Wolverhampton in cancer and haematological cancer has been placed in (a) 1997 and (b) the latest date for which figures are the Library. available. [322259] The information has been provided for primary care trusts in England for the years 1997-98 to 2008-09. This Mr. Coaker: The information requested is published information is not available for cancer networks. in table 19 of the Statistical First Release (SFR) ‘School Workforce in England (including Local Authority level Information on costs associated with the bed days is figures) January 2009 (Revised)’, published on 29 September not available. 2009. The SFR is available at the following web link: Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ how many (a) admissions and (b) emergency admissions Tables19to27v2.xls for (i) lung cancer, (ii) bowel cancer, (iii) upper Truancy gastrointestinal cancer and (iv) haematological cancer patients in (A) England, (B) each primary care trust and Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for (C) each cancer network were recorded in the Hospital Children, Schools and Families in how many (a) primary Episodes Statistics database in each of the last five and (b) secondary schools more than (i) 10, (ii) 20, (iii) years. [322245] 30 and (iv) 40 per cent. of pupils were classified as persistent absentees in (A) 1997 and (B) the latest year Ann Keen: Information on the count of finished for which figures are available. [316074] admission episodes (FAEs) and emergency admissions where the method of admission was emergency, and Mr. Coaker [holding answer 5 February 2010]: where the primary diagnosis was lung cancer, bowel Information on persistent absentees is not available for cancer, upper gastrointestinal cancer and haematological 1997. The latest available information for 2007-08 is cancer, has been placed in the Library. shown in the table. The information has been provided for England and Primary1 and secondary1, 2 schools: Number of schools by the for primary care trusts in England for the years 2004-05 percentage of persistent absentees3, 4, 2007-08, England to 2008-09. Information is not available by cancer networks. Number of schools Percentage of school Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health enrolments who are persistent Primary Secondary what estimate he made of expenditure on (a) cancer absentees5, 6: schools1 schools1, 2 care, (b) lung cancer care, (c) bowel cancer care, (d) haematological cancer care and (e) upper More than 10% 65 299 gastrointestinal cancer care in (i) England, (ii) each More than 20% 8 11 cancer network area and (iii) each primary care trust in More than 30% 3 0 each of the last five years; how much was spent on More than 40% 1 0 (A) inpatient costs excluding those relating to surgery, 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. (B) surgery including daycare and in-patient stays, 2 Includes maintained secondary schools, city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). (C) drugs including the cost of medicine preparation 3 Includes schools with at least one enrolment aged between five and and administration, (D) outpatients including 15. diagnostics, first and follow-up appointments, (E) 4 Persistent absentees are defined as having 64 or more sessions of radiotherapy, (F) specialist palliative care excluding absence (authorised and unauthorised) during the year, typically over that provided by the voluntary sector and (G) other 20 per cent. overall absence rate. 5 The number of persistent absentees expressed 86 a percentage of the costs in each of those years; and whether the total number of enrolments. methodology used to make those estimates was the 6 Those schools counted in the ‘more than 40 per cent.’ category are same as that used to produce the chart on page 119 of also included in all the lower categories. Similarly, for the ‘more than his Department’s Cancer Reform Strategy, published 30 per cent.’ and ‘more than 20 per cent.’ categories. on 3 December 2007. [322272] Source: School Census Ann Keen: Tables showing estimated expenditure on cancer care, lung cancer care, lower gastro-intestinal cancer care, haematological cancer care and upper HEALTH gastrointestinal cancer care in England, by each cancer Cancer: Health Services network area and by each primary care trust (PCT), have been placed in the Library. Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Information on cancer care has been provided for how many (a) elective and (b) emergency bed days England and PCTs for the last five years. Information were recorded in the Hospital Episodes Statistics database on cancer care has been provided for cancer networks as having been accounted for by (i) haematological, (ii) from 2004-05, as this is the first year that the information gastrointestinal, (iii) bowel and (iv) lung cancer patients became available. Information for cancer care by tumour 921W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 922W site has been provided from 2006-07 as this is the first Phil Hope: The 2009 Civil Service People Survey year that data was collected at sub-category level for a results for the Department have been placed in the number of tumour types. Bowel cancer care is included Library. The results are also available on the Department’s in the lower gastro-intestinal cancer care data. website at: The information requested at A-G is not routinely www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ available. The estimated total national health service PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_112846 spend on cancer care represented in the graph on page The 2009 Civil Service People Survey results for the 119 of the “Cancer Reform Strategy” was an analysis Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency commissioned specifically for inclusion in the Strategy. (MHRA) have been placed in the Library. These results It was based on a wide range of data from 2005-06, and are also available on the MHRA website at: the sources of this data are quoted in the Strategy. An www.mhra.gov.uk/NewsCentre/CON071332 estimated NHS spend on cancer care under the same Departmental Theft categories of that graph is not available for any other years, and could only be obtained at disproportionate Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health cost. what steps his Department is taking to deter theft from Cancer: Medical Treatments within the Department. [322649] Phil Hope: The Department deters thefts by: Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health reporting thefts to the police; how many NHS cancer patients have made top-up guidance and training to staff on how to protect departmental payments for treatments since the arrangements for property; such payments were implemented. [322520] marking departmental property with forensic dye and high visibility labels; and Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not hold recording lost or stolen items on a police property register. figures for the number of national health service patients Doctors and Nurses: Manpower who choose to purchase additional private care. However, this will be looked at as part of a national Mr. Purchase: To ask the Secretary of State for audit of the demand for unfunded drugs. The audit, Health how many (a) doctors and (b) nurses were which was recommended by Professor Sir Mike Richards’ employed in the NHS in Wolverhampton (i) in 1997 review, ‘Improving access to medicines for NHS patients’, and (ii) at the latest date for which figures are available. is currently being developed and is expected to report in [322256] the spring of 2011. Ann Keen: The information is not available in the Departmental Legal Costs format requested. However, the number of consultants, doctors in training and national health service hospital Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and community health services (HCHS) qualified nursing how much his Department have spent in (a) legal fees staff, at the Royal Wolverhampton Hospitals NHS Trust and (b) compensation on legal cases concerning as at 30 September, for 1997 and the latest date available, remuneration of its employees in each of the last 10 is shown in the following table: years. [322061] Number of HCHS Phil Hope: Since 2006, there have been no legal Number of doctors in qualified challenges reaching an employment tribunal on matters consultants training nursing staff concerning remuneration. Records were not held centrally 1997 94 131 978 prior to 2006 and to collect this information would 2008 182 219 1,547 incur disproportionate costs. Sources: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care—Non-Medical Departmental Legislation Workforce Census The NHS Information Centre for health and social care—Medical Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State and Dental Workforce Census for Health what statutory instruments he plans to lay The number of NHS general practitioners (GPs), before Parliament in the remainder of the current practice nurses and HCHS qualified nursing staff employed session; and on what dates he plans to lay those by Wolverhampton City Primary Care Trust (PCT) as instruments. [322267] at 30 September, for 2002 and the latest date available, is shown in the following table: Phil Hope: There are no current plans to lay any further statutory instruments under the affirmative Number of HCHS procedure in the current session. A number of statutory Number of Number of qualified instruments to be laid under the negative procedure are GPs practice nurses nursing staff under consideration at any time. 2002 142 98 1,461 Departmental Surveys 2008 175 96 1,547 Note: Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Health It is not possible to map accurate workforce figures for this organisation prior to the formation of the PCTs in 2002. if he will place in the Library a copy of the benchmark Source: results of the Civil Service People Survey for his The NHS Information Centre for health and social care—General Department and its agencies. [322572] and Personal Medical Services Statistics 923W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 924W

Doctors: Vacancies Department has consulted widely on this reform and is currently analysing the responses, which will feed into a White Paper later this year; Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many vacancies for junior doctors there The National Carer’s Strategy—(Carers at the heart of 21st century families and communities)—launched in 2008; have been in each month since May 1997. [322236] The first National Dementia Strategy was published in February Ann Keen: Junior doctor posts are not included in the 2009; NHS Information Centre Medical and Dental vacancy Valuing People Now—a three year strategy for people with publication. learning disabilities published in January 2009; and New Horizons: A Shared Vision for Mental Health—launched Ealing in December 2009—to maintain improvements in mental health services combined with a new cross-Government approach to promoting public mental health. Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Since 1998, there are now 2.4 million fewer smokers if he will set out, with statistical evidence relating as in England as a result of the Government’s comprehensive closely as possible to Ealing Southall constituency, the tobacco control strategy which has had a measurable effects on that constituency of his Department’s impact on reducing smoking prevalence. policies since 1997. [322444] Child obesity levels are reducing due to the efforts of Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Government have put in families across England, supported by the Government’s place a programme of national health service investment obesity strategy. In 2008, 13.9 per cent. of children and reform since 1997 to improve service delivery in all (aged 2 to 10) in England were classified as obese, parts of the United Kingdom. 93 per cent. of people compared with 17.3 per cent. in 2005. nationally now rate the NHS as good or excellent. The Overall, life expectancy at birth for men has increased NHS Constitution contains 25 rights and 14 pledges for from 74.5 years (1995-1997 data) to 77.7 years (2006-08 patients and the public including new rights to be data) while for women, life expectancy at birth has treated within 18 weeks, or be seen by a cancer specialist increased from 79.6 years (1995-97 data) to 81.9 years within two weeks and an NHS health check every five (2006-08 data). years for those aged 40-74 years. There is significant evidence that these policies have General Practitioners and Dental Services: Pendle yielded considerable benefits for the Ealing Southall constituency. Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State For example: for Health how many (a) GPs and (b) dentists were Figures for December 2009 show that in Ealing Primary Care practising in Pendle in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2009. [322224] Trust (PCT): 96 per cent. of patients whose treatment involved admission to hospital started their treatment within 18 weeks. Ann Keen: The information is not available in the 98 per cent. of patients whose treatment did not involve format requested. However, the data which is available admission to hospital started their treatment within 18 weeks. is set out in the following table. Between September 2001 and September 2008 the number of All general practitioners (excluding retainers and registrars) by general practitioners (GPs) per 100,000 people within Ealing primary care trust (PCT) area in England, as at 30 September PCT has increased from 61.2 to 66.8. 2002-08 In December 2009, at Ealing Hospital NHS Trust, 97.7 per 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 cent. of patients spent less than four hours in accident and Burnley, 129 133 134 132 — — — emergency from arrival to admission, transfer or discharge. Pendle and Between September 1997 and September 2008 the number of Rossendale consultants at Ealing Hospital NHS Trust increased from 49 to PCT 67. Between September 1997 and September 2008 the estimated East — — — — 221 218 221 number of nurses increased from 550 to 726. Lancashire 96.9 per cent. of urgent GP referrals to Ealing Hospital NHS Teaching Trust with suspected cancer are seen by a specialist within two PCT weeks of the referral. Notes: Although statistical information is not available at a local level, 1. East Lancashire PCT was created on 1 October 2006 from a Ealing Southall will have also benefited from national policies complete merger of Burnley, Pendle and Rossendale PCT, Hyndbum and Ribble Valley PCT and a part merger of Preston PCT (various in other areas. For example: wards and parishes). Due to this part merger it is not possible to Since 1997, gross current expenditure on personal social services provide figures which are consistent over a time series prior to 2006. has increased by around 70 per cent. in real terms with around The area of Pendle was serviced by Burnley, Pendle and Rossendale 105,000 households now receiving intensive home care and PCT in 2002-05 and by East Lancashire PCT in 2006-08. 3,076 new extra care housing units—exceeding the original 2. The Information Centre for health and social care seeks to target of 1,500 new extra care units. minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing Other strategies currently being implemented are: the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data Subject to parliamentary approval, the Personal Care at Home quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is Bill will guarantee free personal care for 280,000 people with assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not the highest needs and help around 130,000 people who need changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant home care for the first time to regain their independence; analyses. Shaping the Future of Care Together Green Paper, published Source: The Information Centre for health and social care—general and in July 2009, sets out a vision for a National Care Service for all personal medical services statistics. adults in England which is fair, simple and affordable. The 925W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 926W

The numbers of national health service dentists, in Total expenditure in Spearhead and non-Spearhead primary care Pendle, as at 31 March, 1997 to 2006 are available in trusts (PCTs) 2005-06 to 2008-09 Annex E and Annex G of the “NHS Dental Activity £000 and Workforce Report England: 31 March 2006”. Annex Non- E provides information by strategic health authority Spearhead Spearhead PCTs PCTs Total (SHA) and by PCT. Annex G provides information by constituency. 2005-06 21,770,843 41,492,084 63,262,927 This information is based on the old contractual Notes: arrangements, which were in place up to and including 1. Figures represent total net operating costs. 2. Figures for 2006-07 to 2008-09 are based on PCT boundaries 31 March 2006. This report, published on 23 August following the October 2006 NHS reorganisation. 2005-06 figures are 2006, has already been placed in the Library and is based on old PCT boundaries. available on the website of the Information Centre for 3. The Spearhead group is identified in terms of local authority health and social care at: areas—Spearhead PCTs are those that overlap geographically, either wholly or partly, with the Spearhead local authorities. Spearhead www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dwfactivity PCTs on old and new boundaries cover slightly different populations. The numbers of dentists with NHS activity during Source: the years ending 31 March, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are PCT audited summarisation schedules available in Table G1 of Annex 3 of the “NHS Dental Home Care Services Statistics for England: 2008-09” report. Information is provided for England and by SHA and PCT but is not available by constituency. This information is based on Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State the new dental contractual arrangements, introduced for Health who (a) was invited to and (b) attended his on 1 April 2006. This report, published on 19 August Department’s care and support conference in February 2009, has already been placed in the Library and is also 2010. [322237] available on the website of the Information Centre for health and social care at: Phil Hope: Members of the Care and Support Alliance and a limited number of additional organisations which www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0809 have a cross-cutting leadership role in the care and Following a recent consultation exercise, this measure support sector, were invited to the Care and Support is based on a revised methodology and therefore supersedes Conference on 19 February to give their views to politicians any previously published workforce figures relating to and help build a consensus on the reform of the system. the new dental contractual arrangements. It is not A full list of attendees is included in the Conference comparable to the information collected under the old Report, a copy of which has been placed in the Library contractual arrangements. This revised methodology and which can also be viewed online at: counted the number of dental performers with NHS activity recorded via FP17 claim forms in each year http://careandsupport.direct.gov.uk/news/2010/03/care-and- support-conference-report-published/ ending 31 March. These published figures relate to a headcount and do Motor Neurone Disease: Health Services not differentiate between full-time and part-time dentists, nor do they account for the fact that some dentists may Mr. Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Health do more NHS work than others. whether he plans to publish a national strategy on motor neurone disease; and if he will make a statement. [322342] Health Services: Disadvantaged Ann Keen: There are no current plans to publish a Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State national strategy on motor neurone disease. for Health how much NHS spending has been spent in (a) Spearhead and (b) non-Spearhead primary care NHS: Medical Treatments trusts in each year since the start of the Spearhead Programme. [322325] Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether Evidence Review Groups are required to Gillian Merron: There are currently 62 PCTs that complete their assessments within the timetables set by cover Spearhead areas and 90 that do not. It is worth the National Institute for Health and Clinical noting that the ‘Spearhead’ does not refer to PCTs, but Excellence for (a) multiple and (b) single technology to local authority areas, which do not correspond exactly appraisals. [322514] to each other The information is in the following table. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Under the contract between the Department and the Technology Assessment Review Total expenditure in Spearhead and non-Spearhead primary care (TAR) teams which support the work of the National trusts (PCTs) 2005-06 to 2008-09 Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), £000 Evidence Review Group reports for single technology Non- appraisals are produced within eight weeks from the Spearhead Spearhead PCTs PCTs Total date of the industry submission and assessment reports for multiple technology appraisals are produced within 2008-09 30,114,227 46,646,607 76,760,834 28 weeks from the TAR team’s receipt: of the final 2007-08 28,486,147 43,892,433 72,378,580 scope from NICE. This assumes that preceding stages 2006-07 26,018,647 40,369,031 66,387,678 have been completed according to the stipulated guidance. 927W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 928W

Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. McFadden: During the period 1 February 2009 when he expects the National Institute for Health and to 31 January 2010, 116 items were reported as missing Clinical Excellence to publish its response to the on this Department’s and its predecessors’ central London consultation on its response to Sir Ian Kennedy’s estate with an estimated replacement value of £32,044. report on Appraising the Value of Innovation. [322594] Of these, 22 items were subsequently found with an estimated replacement value of £3,257. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Publication of the National Institute The Department records items as missing as it is not for Health and Clinical Excellence’s (NICE) final response always possible to prove theft as the reason for the loss to Sir Ian Kennedy’s report on Appraising the Value of of items and some items reported are subsequently Innovation is a matter for NICE as an independent found. body. We understand that a draft response to Sir Ian’s The figure includes small, low value personal items as report was discussed at NICE’S board meeting on well as items of electrical equipment, such as ICT 17 March 2010 and NICE will confirm its plans for equipment, mobile phones and accessories (some of publication in due course. which may have been personal items) and multi media Trade Unions equipment.

Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many days staff of his Department and its Departmental Theft agencies spent on trade union activity in the latest year for which figures are available; and what recent Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, Department estimate he has made of the annual cost to the public for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps the purse of such activity. [320614] Department is taking to deter theft from within the Department. [322645] Phil Hope: Information about the number of days that staff in the Department and its agencies spent on Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation trade union activity is not held centrally. To collect this and Skills takes thefts seriously, and has long standing information would incur disproportionate cost. It is not policies in place designed to reduce the number of possible therefore to make an estimate of the cost of thefts. these activities. To raise awareness of the need for ongoing vigilance Through our facilities agreement, the Department we undertake the following: makes available certain facilities to the three recognised Poster campaigns in areas such as in the tea points and lift trades unions in order to conduct their business effectively. lobbies reminding staff of the threat of opportunist thefts. The Department and trades unions place high value Advice on the Department’s intranet site alerting staff that on fostering and maintaining good industrial relations. they could be a victim, and advising them what to do in the We work in partnership to achieve shared aims, objectives unlikely event they become a victim. and outcomes. The granting of reasonable facilities and Frequent foot patrols by our security guards, both in and out facility time by the Department make an important of office hours. contribution to the success of the organisation. There have also been notices to staff published on the Department’s electronic bulletin board reminding staff of the need to protect departmental assets when travelling on public transport and when in public places. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS We record thefts in the Department and monitor the trends. If trends deteriorate in a given area, we would Departmental Consultants put in place further measures to tackle the problem. These could include seminars to staff in affected areas, Angus Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, one to one advice and specific intervention by line Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how managers. much was spent on external consultants and advisers We review our policies frequently making improvements by (a) his Department and (b) each (i) non- to security when necessary. departmental public body and (ii) executive agency for which his Department is responsible in each year since 2005. [319767] Diamond Jubilee 2012 Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan An Iar Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, (Mr. MacNeil) on 16 March 2010, Official Report, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how column reference 838W. many officials from his Department are working on plans for the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. [322510] Departmental Lost Property Mr. McFadden: A Diamond Jubilee Unit has been John Mason: To ask the Minister of State, established in the Department for Culture, Media and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Sport. This is staffed by 1.5 (full-time equivalent) staff. property has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen The Unit is working closely with officials from 15 from his Department in the last 12 months; and what Government Departments (including the Department estimate has been made of the cost of the replacement for Business, Innovation and Skills) and the Devolved of that property. [322069] Administrations. 929W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 930W

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Learning Disability Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether there are plans to strike medals to commemorate the Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. [322522] for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department plans to take to ensure that adult learners Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the statement with learning (a) difficulties and (b) disabilities are given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary given support to participate in education; and if he will of State for Business and Regulatory Reform (Ian Lucas) make a statement. [322738] to the House on this matter on 5 January 2010, Official Report, columns 56-57. A medal will be issued to mark the Diamond Jubilee in 2012. Further details will be Kevin Brennan: This Department routes funding through released in due course. the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) for the provision of further education (FE) and skills training for adult learners aged 19 and over. This includes funding for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, learners with difficulties and/or disabilities (LLDD). Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many letters he has received on the subject of the Funding for these learners remains a priority and we Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in the last 12 months. [322619] remain committed to maintaining future opportunities for them. Mr. McFadden: My Noble Friend the Secretary of Additional learning support (ALS) funding is provided State has received approximately 52 letters on the subject to FE colleges and training organisations to support the of the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. additional costs associated with learners with LDD to help them to undertake mainstream provision. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, There is a broad range of provision available to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what support learners with LDD, for example the Foundation steps his Department is taking to link events to Learning Curriculum supports improved achievement commemorate the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee with London and progression towards employment and independent 2012 Olympics. [322620] living below level 2. However it is for FE colleges and training organisations to determine their offer to these Mr. McFadden: Planning for the Diamond Jubilee is learners in line with their level of need. still at an early stage. Consideration will be given nearer Currently, learners aged 19 to 25 entitled to a learning the time as to whether there are opportunities to link difficulty assessment (LDD) (S139A) are covered by a the Jubilee celebrations with other events going on statutory duty placed on the Learning Skills Council. around the country in the run up to the games. From 1 April 2010 responsibility will transfer to local authorities (LAs) following changes announced in the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Learning Skills Act 2008 and the Apprenticeship, Schools, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Children and Learning Act 2009. Such learners will recent discussions he has had with Buckingham Palace continue to be funded by the Department for Children, on the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. [322621] Schools and Families (DCSF) through the arrangements with the Young Persons Learning Agency and LAs. Mr. McFadden: Although planning for the Diamond This will support the policy that there should be a single Jubilee is still at an early stage, discussions are ongoing body with responsibility for all young adults with learning between Government and the Royal Household about difficulties and/or disabilities (LLDD) up to the age of the arrangements for the Diamond Jubilee. 25 who require significant levels of support. It is not possible to separately identify learners in Insolvency: Gloucestershire receipt of S139A assessments. However we are able to estimate that there have been around 200,000 learners Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department aged 19 and over in mainstream provision with a self for Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses declared disability each year from 2006/07 to 2008/09 employing (a) fewer than 10, (b) between 10 and 50, academic year (the latest whole year for which data are (c) between 51 and 100, (d) between 101 and 200, (e) available). between 201 and 300 and (f) over 300 employees have been declared insolvent in (i) Stroud constituency and Redundancy: Public Sector (ii) Gloucestershire in each year since 1990. [322789] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Minister of State, Ian Lucas: Official statistics covering corporate Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what insolvencies are not currently available at a sub-national the (a) voluntary and (b) involuntary redundancy level within England and Wales. rates were in the public sector in (i) Leeds North West Additionally, the number of employees is not recorded constituency and (ii) each industrial category in each on the source datasets. year since 1997. [322702] Self-employed traders may be declared bankrupt (or enter into an individual voluntary arrangement (IVA)). Mr. McFadden: Estimates of the total number of While official regional figures down to constituency redundancies are available from the Labour Force Survey level for self-employed bankrupts are maintained from (LFS). However there is no available disaggregation calendar year 2000, the number of employees (if any) is between voluntary and involuntary redundancies or a not available. constituency-level or regional breakdown. 931W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 932W

Individuals recently made redundant are not asked in The Government have put in place a broad programme the LFS whether they were in the public or private of reform since 1997. Over the decade to 2007, the sectors and are instead classified according to the industrial economic performance of all parts of the UK improved group of their previous job. The industrial group ‘public considerably. More recently we have provided significant administration, education and health’ may act as a very support to businesses through ‘Real Help for Business’, broad approximation of a large part of the public and the strategy ‘New Industry, New Jobs’. sector. Although a large fraction of employees in and There are a number of websites that provides a wide redundancies from this industrial group are likely to be range of statistical information at parliamentary in the public sector, private sector firms also operate constituency level. Examples are the National Statistics within this industry whilst there are also public sector website at: employees in other sectors. http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/ BIS estimates of redundancies from public and NOMIS at: administration, education and health and all other industries https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/ are provided in the third and fourth columns of Table 1 for the first quarter of each year since 1999, the earliest Students: Radicalism date available. These figures should only be treated as indicative as the LFS is a self classification survey Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department completed by individuals. Some individuals are unlikely for Business, Innovation and Skills what written to identify exactly the industry in which they work. guidance his Department has issued to educational The second column of Table 1 reports Office for establishments on reducing levels of (a) religious and National Statistics published figures for total economy-wide (b) political extremism in those establishments. redundancy rates. These do not exactly match the other [321684] columns due to missing values in the industrial classification Mr. Lammy: Guidance was issued to vice-chancellors of redundancies. and college principals from the former Department for Table 1: First quarter redundancy rates 1997 to 2009. Not seasonally Innovation, Universities and Skills on managing the adjusted. risk of violent extremism. Industrial breakdown These two guidance documents can be found at: ONS total Public http://www.dius.gov.uk/higher_education/ first quarter administration, shape_and_structure/~/media/publications/L/extremismhe redundancy education and All other rates health industries and http://www.dius.gov.uk/further_education/ 1997 7.0 — — guidance_and_good_practice/~/media/publications/L/ 1998 7.4 — — learning-together-to-be-safe-online- 1999 8.8 1.50 11.40 My noble Friend the Secretary of State wrote to all 2000 7.8 0.97 10.32 vice-chancellors in England in February 2010 following 2001 6.5 1.39 8.48 the failed Detroit bombing on Christmas day. A copy of 2002 8.4 1.24 11.11 this letter will be sent to the hon. Member. 2003 7.3 1.35 9.65 2004 5.9 0.89 7.97 Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2005 5.6 0.99 7.61 for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he 2006 5.9 1.20 8.06 has made of the compatibility of measures planned by 2007 6.1 1.44 8.15 his Department to reduce extremism in educational 2008 4.7 1.37 6.21 establishments with the provisions of the Human 2009 11.8 1.36 16.50 Rights Act 1998. [321685] Source: Mr. Lammy: Work to reduce extremism in educational ONS Economic and Labour Market Statistics (column 2) and BIS analysis of Labour Force Survey (columns 3 and 4). The data are not establishments forms part of the Government’s overall seasonally adjusted although there are seasonal variations in the counter-terrorism strategy. The revised strategy which number of redundancies. was published by the Home Office in 2009 contains a statement on Human Rights. Separate assessments are not undertaken by other Departments. Stroud The statement can be found in sections 7.04 to 7.06 of the counter terrorism strategy document which can be Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department found at: for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will set out, http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-publications/ with statistical information related as directly as publication-search/contest/contest-strategy possible to Stroud constituency, the effects on that constituency of the policies and actions of his Department and its predecessors since 2000. [321473] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr. McFadden: I refer my hon. Friend to the answers Biomass given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Regional Development and Co-ordination on 27 January, Mr. Ian Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 974W,and 10 February, Official Energy and Climate Change what recent progress he Report, column 111W, regarding specific examples of has made on the development of sustainability indicators support to Stroud district. for biomass. [322266] 933W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 934W

Mr. Kidney: The renewable energy directive, published carbon dioxide came from the residential sector. This in June 2009, includes sustainability criteria that transport primarily represents emissions relating to fossil fuel biofuels, and bioliquids used for heat and electricity combustion within residential homes, which will primarily generation must meet in order to receive financial support be in relation to domestic heating and cooking. and to count towards the directive’s renewable energy DECC also publishes estimates of carbon dioxide targets. On 25 February 2010, the European Commission emissions on an end-user basis which can be found at: published its recommendations on the sustainability requirements member states should include if they decide http://decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/ climate_change_gg_emissions/uk_emissions/2008_final/ to introduce sustainability criteria for the use of solid 2008_final.aspx and gaseous biomass sources for heat and electricity generation. In the light of this, DECC will make an on this page a summary report of UK emissions by announcement later this month, setting out what actions National Communication sector (which includes the the Government can now take to introduce sustainability residential sector) on an end-user basis and the standards for biomass in the UK. accompanying excel tables can be found. The end-user breakdown reallocates the emissions by Carbon Emissions source in accordance with where the end-use occurred. The main effect of this is to re-allocate emissions from the power supply sector to businesses and homes, where Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for electricity is used. Energy and Climate Change what volume of carbon dioxide emissions have been recorded in the UK on the The most recent estimates available of UK carbon Kyoto protocol basis (a) including and (b) excluding dioxide emissions on an end-user basis are for the 2007 emissions trading in each of the last five years. [320330] calendar year; this is the most recent year for which we have estimates of emissions by both source and end-user. Joan Ruddock: DECC published estimates of UK These were published by DECC as national statistics on greenhouse gas emissions for the period 1990 to 2008 as 26 March 2009. This publication included a breakdown National Statistics on 2 February 2010. These can be by end-user sector, which estimated that 142.2 Mt carbon- found on the DECC website at the link as follows. This dioxide came from the residential sector. publication includes data tables which show emissions On an end-user basis, we would therefore estimate both including and excluding emissions trading. that approximately 45 per cent. of residential carbon http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/ dioxide emissions arise from electricity use. climate_change/gg_emissions/uk_emissions/2008_final/ 2008_fmal.aspx Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table shows both UK carbon dioxide Energy and Climate Change what expenditure his emissions and UK greenhouse gas emissions on a Kyoto Department has incurred on its Act on CO campaign Protocol basis for each of the last five years for which 2 in each month since the campaign began. [320334] data are currently available.

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Joan Ruddock: We do not hold financial records for spend for all media on a month-by-month basis. Greenhouse Excluding 659.3 655.2 650.0 640.5 628.3 gas emissions The cost information we have is outlined as follows. emissions trading DECC was; created in October 2008, however the Including 659.3 630.1 618.7 614.9 608.4 Save Money, Save Energy campaign was launched in emissions trading September 2008, therefore figures reported are from the start of that campaign.

Carbon Excluding 556.3 553.9 551.4 543.6 532.8 From September 2008 to March 2009, invoiced dioxide emissions expenditure on DECC’s ACT ON CO2 advertising emissions trading campaign was £10.19 million inclusive of fees, exclusive Including 556.3 528.8 520.2 518.1 512.9 of VAT and covers all costs associated with the campaign. emissions trading From April 2009 to 16 March 2010, the estimated expenditure was £9.98 million inclusive of fees, exclusive of VAT and covers all costs associated with the campaign. Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the amount of carbon dioxide emissions arising Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for from UK households in the most recent period for Energy and Climate Change what figures are represented (a) (b) (c) which figures are available; and what estimate he has in Chart 19, Chart 20 and Chart 22 of the made of the proportion of such emissions arising from Analytical Annex to the Low Carbon Transition Plan. [320358] electricity use. [320332]

Joan Ruddock: The most recent estimates of UK Joan Ruddock: The underlying data for charts 19, 20 carbon dioxide emissions were for the 2008 calendar and 22 from the Analytical Annex to the Low Carbon year. These were published by DECC as National Statistics Transition Plan are in the tables. The Annex can be on 2nd February 2010. This publication includes a viewed online at: breakdown by sector, based on the source of emissions. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/ Based on this breakdown, we estimate that 80.7 Mt lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx 935W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 936W

Chart 19 shows that the projected increases in household Chart 19: Increase in energy bills in 2020 for different income deciles energy bills in 2020 (compared to bills in 2020 where Increase in share of income there are no climate change policies) are likely to represent Percentage share of income spent on energy bills with a smaller proportion of income for those in higher spent on energy bills policies (ppts) Decile without policies (percentage) income households than for lower income households. th Chart 20 shows that households who take up insulation 7 3.42 0.41 and renewable energy measures are likely to face much 8th 2.95 0.38 lower increases in their bills in 2020 compared to those 9th 2.53 0.34 who do not. It also shows that for those who do take up Top 1.87 0.25 measures, the expected increase in energy bills as a share Source: of income is more similar across the income distribution. DECC Chart 20: Increase in energy bill as a percentage of income for Chart 22 shows actual and projected UK fossil fuel households that take up insulation and renewable energy measures demand and production, indicating the level of the Percentage UK’s energy import dependency.The Department updates Household Household Average of all its projections of both UK demand and production Income receives receives no households from time to time so these estimates of future import Decile measures measures (ppts) dependency are subject to revision. Bottom 0.67 2.78 1.50 Chart 19: Increase in energy bills in 2020 for different income deciles 2nd 0.46 1.89 0.96 Increase in share of income 3rd 0.44 1.52 0.80 Percentage share of income spent on energy bills with 4th 0.39 1.28 0.69 spent on energy bills policies (ppts) th Decile without policies (percentage) 5 0.30 1.09 0.55 6th 0.29 0.96 0.50 Bottom 12.73 1.50 7th 0.24 0.82 0.41 2nd 8.53 0.96 8th 0.24 0.73 0.38 3rd 6.63 0.80 9th 0.22 0.62 0.34 4th 5.42 0.69 Top 0.18 0.44 0.25 5th 4.55 0.55 Source: 6th 3.96 0.50 DECC

Chart 22: Actual and projected UK fossil fuel demand and production UK Production UK Demand (pre-TP baseline) UK Demand (post-TP) Oil (incl. Oil (incl. Oil (incl. mtoe Coal bunkers) Gas (net) Coal bunkers) Gas (net) Coal bunkers) Gas (net)

1998 25.8 145.3 84.5 40.6 91.0 82.3 40.6 91.0 82.3 1999 23.2 150.2 93.5 36.1 89.6 88.0 36.1 89.6 88.0 2000 19.6 138.3 102.7 38.7 89.2 91.2 38.7 89.2 91.2 2001 20.0 127.8 99.1 41.0 87.6 89.6 41.0 87.6 89.6 2002 18.8 127.0 96.8 37.6 86.6 88.3 37.6 86.6 88.3 2003 17.6 116.2 96.3 40.1 86.8 88.8 40.1 86.8 88.8 2004 15.6 104.5 89.7 38.5 89.1 90.8 38.5 89.1 90.8 2005 12.7 92.9 81.8 39.4 91.3 88.4 39.4 91.3 88.4 2006 11.4 84.0 74.0 43.0 90.6 84.2 43.0 90.6 84.2 2007 10.7 84.2 66.5 40.3 86.9 85.4 40.3 86.9 85.4 2008 11.6 78.2 64.3 38.2 85.8 86.3 38.1 85.8 86.3 2009 11,0 74.1 59.1 36.3 84.3 84.4 35.7 82.6 83.9 2010 11.0 70.8 55.5 34.4 84.2 82.1 33.1 83.1 80.7 2011 11.0 67.8 52.3 38.0 85.0 80.9 33.0 83.6 80.5 2012 11.0 65.3 49.4 36.9 85.8 82.2 31.7 84.0 80.3 2013 11.0 62.7 47.2 35.3 86.1 84.0 31.8 84.0 78.8 2014 11.0 59.9 45.0 34.0 86.5 85.0 28.8 83.6 78.8 2015 11.0 57.2 43.0 35.3 86.9 84.2 30.6 83.2 74.9 2016 11.0 54.6 41.1 31.5 87.4 86.8 29.0 82.8 72.8 2017 11.0 52.2 39.2 31.0 88.0 88.5 26.9 82.4 73.0 2018 11.0 49.8 37.5 30.5 88.5 88.5 28.5 82.0 68.1 2019 11.0 47.6 35.8 30.7 89.1 88.8 26.1 81.5 67.0 2020 11.0 45.4 34.2 31.5 89.7 87.8 24.7 81.1 62.6 2021 11.0 43.4 32.6 30.5 90.4 88.5 23.9 81.6 61.6 2022 11.0 41.4 31.2 30.5 91.2 89.5 23.3 82.1 61.8 2023 11.0 39.6 29.7 29.4 91.9 91.4 18.5 82.6 66.2 2024 11.0 37.8 28.4 27.2 92.7 96.1 18.0 83.1 68.9 2025 11.0 36.1 27.1 27.2 93.5 97.2 18.0 83.7 68.9 Source: DECC 937W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 938W

Carbon Emissions: Housing £ Mitigation Adaptation Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to take steps to 2006-07 987,775 292,554 ensure that consumers are aware of those services and 2007-08 1,583,875 575,388 products which are subsidised under the Carbon 2008-09 1,717,622 269,354 Emissions Reduction Target scheme; and if he will make a statement. [322483] (b) The UK Climate Impacts Programme (UKCIP), funded by DEFRA, has incorporated a business element Joan Ruddock: The Government are taking a number that works with individual business or representative of steps to ensure consumers are assisted in understanding organisations to help develop risk management and the support available to them. The Government supports adaptation strategies. UKCIP have developed free for a one stop shop through the Energy Saving Trust which user on-line tools specially designed for business, in provides free advice to consumers on energy saving as addition to the climate change projections. well as providing easy access to the full range of Carbon We are unable to provide a breakdown of the funding Emission Reduction Target offers. This is supported by provided to UKCIP for research into mitigating the the Government’s overarching Act On CO2 marketing effects of climate change in agriculture and business, as campaign which demonstrates the benefits of the energy the work done by UKCIP is of benefit to all. However saving measures offered under the Carbon Emission the total funding provided to UKCIP for the last five Reduction Target as part of coverage in national television, years is as follows: press, radio and online. Longer term, we have set out our intention as part of the ‘Warm Homes, Greener £ Homes’ strategy to continue to improve and simplify consumer access to, and use of, energy saving information. 2005-06 712,743 This will combine with effective branding and marketing 2006-07 799,000 to build awareness and trust in the available products 2007-08 898,337 and services. 2008-09 1,322,900 2009-10 1,078,000 Climate Change: Publicity Total funding 4,810,980 Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, as part of Government’s cross-Department Energy and Climate Change how much his Department Adaptation to Climate Change programme established had spent on its advertising campaign Act on CO2 at in 2008, a small business engagement team has been set the latest date for which information is available. up. In FY 2009-10 this team managed research projects [319440] on business opportunities from adaptation to climate change, business messaging and business advice totalling Joan Ruddock: DECC was created in October 2008, up to £160,000. however the Save Money, Save Energy campaign was launched in September 2008, therefore figures reported Departmental Lost Property are from the start of that campaign. From September 2008 to March 2009, invoiced cost John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what property has been recorded on DECC’s Act on CO2 advertising campaign was £10.19 million inclusive of fees, exclusive of VAT and as (a) lost and (b) stolen from his Department in the covers all costs associated with the campaign. last 12 months; and what estimate has been made of From April 2009 to 16 March 2010, the estimated the cost of the replacement of that property. [322074] cost was £9.98 million inclusive of fees, exclusive of Joan Ruddock: The following items have been recorded VAT and covers all costs associated with the campaign. as lost or stolen from the Department in the last 12 months: Climate Change: Research Item Lost Stolen

Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Laptops 1 1 Energy and Climate Change how much funding has RSA token 9 0 been allocated to research into mitigation of the effects of climate change on (a) agriculture and (b) other Entrust token 3 0 industries in the last five years. [322309] Blackberry 1 0 3G dongle 1 0 Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. Coat 0 1 (a) The funding allocated into research into the Bag 0 1 effects of climate change on agriculture in the past five years is as follows: Estimated cost for replacement is £4,000. £ Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mitigation Adaptation

2003-04 324,193 280,559 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State 2004-05 324,193 280,559 for Energy and Climate Change how much has been 2005-06 239,748 143,199 paid in reimbursable expenses to special advisers in his Department in each year since its creation. [320582] 939W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 940W

Joan Ruddock: The Department has not paid any Mr. Kidney: We are not aware recent work has been reimbursable expenses to special advisers. done on the risk of a deliberately generated electromagnetic pulse adversely impacting the National Grid. Domestic Appliances: Carbon Emissions In 2009 National Grid used modelling techniques to study the impact of solar storms on the UK transmission Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for system. The modelling has identified the reasonable Energy and Climate Change (1) what estimate he has worst scenario for the transmission network could lead made of the number of domestic consumer electronics to short term, localised disturbances at the extremities products which qualify for the Carbon Emissions of the network. National Grid do not anticipate any Reduction Target; what estimate he has made of the significant disruption to supplies to electricity customers. reduction in the volume of carbon dioxide emissions as a result of the number of domestic consumer Oils: Waste Disposal electronics products in the scheme; and if he will make a statement; [322866] Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State (2) if he will bring forward proposals to require all for Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) measures encouraging the generation of energy from waste oils; to be branded to inform consumers of their indirect and if he will make a statement. [319195] contribution through bill payments to the cost of CERT measures; and if he will make a statement. Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. [322867] DEFRA’s policy on waste oils is set out in the revised Waste Framework Directive (2008/98/EC). In accordance Joan Ruddock: Government do not require suppliers with the directive, the recovery of energy from waste oil to report or present this information on bills at present, is fourth in the priority order known as the waste but the Government’s ‘Warm Homes, Greener Homes’ hierarchy. The regeneration of waste oil into base oil by strategy, published in early March, set out the importance re-refining is classed as recycling and is third in the of greater transparency in any post 2013 energy company hierarchy. Waste disposal, which includes incineration obligation, including around cost information. We continue without energy recovery, is at the bottom as the least to develop the detail of this arrangement, and will preferred option. pursue new powers as necessary. We are currently considering the responses to the Energy: Billing stage one consultation on the transposition of the revised Waste Framework Directive, including the provisions in Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy article 4 on the waste hierarchy and article 21 on waste and Climate Change if he will take steps to prevent oils. The stage two consultation will comprise a draft of energy companies changing billing review and the transposing regulations and an impact assessment. assessment periods for small business customers other Radioactive Waste: Transport than on an annual basis; and if he will enforce automatic return to such customers of credit balances Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy above a specified level. [322306] and Climate Change whether trains carrying nuclear waste use the (a) Lea Valley and (b) Barking to Gospel Mr. Kidney [holding answer 15 March 2010]: Details Oak line. [322511] of billing review and assessment periods, and the customer’s right to a credit refund for balances above a certain level Chris Mole: I have been asked to reply. are subject to the terms and conditions of individual business supply contracts. Where smaller business customers Irradiated nuclear fuel (often referred to as nuclear are concerned about such an issue they should in the waste) is transported by rail from nuclear power stations first instance take it up with their supplier. If the to Sellafield in Cumbria. Because of the nature of the supplier fails to resolve the matter satisfactorily, they UK rail network these shipments regularly use railway should pursue their complaint through the Energy routes in and around London. However, the Department Ombudsman under the statutory redress scheme. for Transport does not hold data on the precise routes taken. Ofgem looked at concerns about unfairness in contract terms in small business supply as part of its probe into The transport of radioactive material, including irradiated the energy supply market in 2008. As a result, Ofgem nuclear fuel, is governed by stringent internationally-agreed recently placed an obligation on suppliers to provide standards recommended by the International Atomic clear and transparent contract terms and conditions. Energy Agency (IAEA), an agency appointed by the The changes came into effect from 18 January 2010. I United Nations to oversee all aspects of the peaceful would expect to see Ofgem evaluate the impact of the uses of atomic energy worldwide. The safety of the changes in due course and consider whether any further transport of radioactive material is secured by the design changes are needed to protect small business consumers. and build quality of the packages used. In particular, packages used to transport irradiated nuclear fuel are National Grid designed to withstand a severe impact and fire without releasing their radioactive contents. Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Organisations consigning radioactive materials are and Climate Change what recent assessment he has free to choose the most appropriate route and mode of made of the effect on the National Grid of an transport for their purposes and rail transport represents electromagnetic pulse strike caused (a) deliberately the best option for very heavy items such as irradiated and (b) through solar activity. [322100] nuclear fuel flasks. 941W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 942W

HOME DEPARTMENT on asylum, what arrangements are available to asylum claimants, notwithstanding the rules of October 2009, Asylum to allow hon. Members to present further evidence supporting the claimant’s case where the claimant Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for the cannot attend in person for medical reasons. [321447] Home Department pursuant to the answer of 1 March 2010, Official Report, columns 880-1W, which countries Alan Johnson: Anyone who had made their asylum were categorised as (a) other Europe, (b) other former claim before 5 March 2007 and is being dealt with by USSR, (c) other Americas, (d) other Africa, (e) other the Case Resolution Directorate, who feels that they are Middle East and (f) other Asia and Oceania in the data physically unable to travel to Liverpool to make their provided. [321318] further submissions in person, due to a disability or severe illness, may submit their further submissions Mr. Woolas: The countries of nationality that are either directly, or from their MP or representative via categorised within other Europe, other former USSR, fax to the Further Submissions Team in Liverpool. This other Americas, other Africa, other Middle East and must be accompanied by documentary evidence to show other Asia and Oceania are listed as follows. The list how they meet the exceptional criteria. Those who fail includes nationalities for which there were no grants or to meet the exceptional criteria will be advised to book refusals of asylum in the years 2007, 2008 and 2009. an appointment to submit their further submissions in (a) Other Europe person. Those who made their claims after 5 March Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Cyprus 2007, whose case is being dealt with by one of the (Northern part of), Denmark, Faroe Islands, Federal Republic of regional asylum teams, should contact either their case- Yugoslavia, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Greece, Greenland, owner or the relevant regional contact number. Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kosovo, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Serbia, Spain, Svalbard and Jan Mayen Islands, Sweden, Switzerland, Vatican City State (Holy See), Yugoslavia. Asylum: Repatriation (b) Other former USSR Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Home Department how many (a) adult and (b) child (c) Other Americas asylum seekers have been removed from the UK by the Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Aruba, Bahamas, Third Country Unit under the provisions of the Dublin Barbados, Belize, Bermuda (GBR), Bolivia, Bouvet Island, Brazil, Regulation EC No. 343/2003 to date. [320864] Canada, Cayman Islands, Chile, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, French Guyana, Grenada, Mr. Woolas [holding answer 5 March 2010]: The Guadeloupe, Guam, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Dublin Regulation came into force in September 2003. Martinique, Mexico, Montserrat, Netherlands Antilles, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, South Georgia and South The following figures show numbers removed since Sandwich Islands, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Pierre and Miquelon, the beginning of 2004. They are based on local management St. Vincent and the Grenadines, St. Lucia, Surinam, Trinidad and information and are not subject to the detailed checks Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands (GBR), United States of that apply to National Statistics publications. America, Uruguay, Venezuela, Virgin Islands (US). (d) Other Africa Dependent Unaccompanied Total 1 Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Cape Verde, Central African Adults children children removals Republic, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, 2004 823 5 79 907 Gabon, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mali, Mauritania, Mauritius, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, 2005 1,444 52 103 1,599 Niger, Burkina Faso, Reunion, Sao Tome Principe, Senegal, 2006 1,415 41 51 1,507 Seychelles, South Africa, St. Helena (GBR), Swaziland, Togo, 2007 1,066 8 40 1,114 Tunisia, Western Sahara, Zambia. 2008 1,191 3 25 1,219 (e) Other Middle East 2009 956 2 36 994 Bahrain, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Palestine, 1 This figure relates to the child’s age at the point of removal. Some Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen. cases begin the Dublin Regulation process as a child but due to the length of time it takes to progress their cases at the point of removal (f) Other Asia and Oceania they have become an adult. American Samoa, Antarctica, Australia, Bhutan, Brunei, Cambodia (Kampuchea),Christmas Islands, Cocos (Keeling) Islands, Cook Island, Korea (North), East Timor, Fiji, Heard & McDonald Crime: North Yorkshire Islands, Hong Kong SAR of China (Holder of Certificate of Identity or Document of Identity), Hong Kong SAR of China (Holder of Special Administrative Region Passport), Indonesia, Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Japan, Kiribati, Laos, Macau, Malaysia, Maldives, Marshall Home Department how many offences of (a) crime Islands, Mayotte, Micronesia, Mongolia, Burma (Myanmar), related to vehicles, (b) burglary of a dwelling, (c) other Nauru, Nepal, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Niue, Norfolk burglary, (d) criminal damage, (e) theft, (f) violence Island, Northern Mariana Islands, Palau, Papua New Guinea, and (g) other crimes were reported to North Yorkshire Philippines, Pitcairn Islands, Samoa, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Korea (South), Thailand, Tokelau, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Wallis Police in each year since 1997; and how many such Futuna Islands. offences were committed in the City of York in each such year. [322112] Mr. Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information is given 22 February 2010, Official Report, columns 329-30W, in the tables. 943W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 944W

Police recorded crime statistics are affected by changes Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and in the in reporting and recording practice and can be influenced York Community Safety Partnership area—1997 by police priorities and activity. All of these factors Number of offences need to be considered when looking at the trends in recorded crime. Offence North Yorkshire York CSP The tables note the changes in recording practice introduced in 1998 and 2002. The Audit Commission Burglary in a 4,876 n/a undertook substantial audit work on crime recording in dwelling the years following the introduction of the National Other burglary 6,484 n/a Crime Recording Standard in April 2002 (up until 2006-07) This indicated a generally increasing level of Criminal damage 8,537 n/a NCRS compliance across forces in this period. Other theft 14,301 n/a Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and in the York Community Safety Partnership area—1997 Violence against the 2,425 n/a Number of offences person Offence North Yorkshire York CSP Other offences 469 n/a Offences against 11,721 n/a vehicles n/a = not available

Table 2: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and in the York Community Safety Partnership area—1998-99 to 2001-021,2 Number of offences Offence 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 North North North North Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP

Offences against 10,986 n/a 9,807 n/a 8,725 3,685 9,216 4,139 vehicles Burglary in a dwelling 4,822 n/a 4,343 2,201 3,888 1,791 4,754 2,299 Other burglary 6,415 n/a 6,059 n/a 5,940 2,175 6,902 2,512 Criminal damage 8,372 n/a 8,617 n/a 9,166 2,717 11,436 3,694 Other theft 14,622 n/a 14,519 n/a 4,066 5,813 15,960 6,761 Violence against the 4,827 n/a 5,101 1,650 4,895 1,504 5,624 1,656 person Other offences 675 n/a 643 n/a 554 144 558 152 n/a = not available 1 The coverage was extended and counting rules revised from 1998-99. Figures from that date are not directly comparable with those for 1997. 2 The data in this table are prior to the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for later years. Table 3: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and in the York Community Safety Partnership area—2002-03 to 2008-09 Number of offences Offence 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 North North North North Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP Yorkshire York CSP

Offences against 10,697 4,761 10,614 4,868 7,463 3,224 7,938 3,841 vehicles Burglary in a 4,766 2,162 4,936 2,346 2,921 1,117 2,619 1,081 dwelling Other burglary 6,745 2,275 6,126 2,183 4,838 1,596 4,705 1.702 Criminal damage 13,168 4,558 14,732 5,394 13,573 4,602 12,723 4,358 Other theft 17,663 7,269 18,792 8,527 14,721 6,176 14,068 6,028 Violence against 8,108 2,575 9,610 3,459 12,045 4,000 11,473 3,810 the person Other offences 663 223 718 246 689 214 670 217

Number of offences Offence 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 North Yorkshire York CSP North Yorkshire York CSP North Yorkshire York CSP

Offences against 7,057 3,556 5,578 2,498 5,581 2,392 vehicles Burglary in a 2,465 1,065 2,372 975 2,474 1,113 dwelling Other burglary 4,371 1,577 3,892 1,343 4,122 1,272 Criminal damage 12,509 4,157 11,023 3,655 10,764 3,640 Other theft 13,242 5,552 12,647 5,384 12,867 5,244 Violence against 10,087 3,285 9,472 3,188 8,136 2,711 the person 945W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 946W

Number of offences Offence 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 North Yorkshire York CSP North Yorkshire York CSP North Yorkshire York CSP

Other offences 622 200 588 165 656 207 1 The data in this table take account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for earlier years.

Crime: Salford the Audit Commission undertook substantial audit work on crime recording in the years following NCRS Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the introduction up until 2006-07, this indicating a generally Home Department how many (a) crimes, (b) crimes increasing level of NCRS compliance across forces. of domestic burglary and (c) violent crimes there were Furthermore, it is known that some forces had taken in Salford in (i) 1997 and (ii) the last 12 months for steps to make their recording of crime more victim-oriented which figures are available. [322411] prior to the formal introduction of NCRS. It was not possible to estimate the impact of the Mr. Alan Campbell: Information for Salford is not NCRS directly beyond the first year of its operation available centrally prior to 1999-2000. In 2008-09, there given the inherent difficulties that would arise in asking were a total of 26,549 crimes recorded by the police in the police to consider how they would have previously the Salford Community Safety Partnership area. Within recorded crime under the less well defined rules. this total, there were 2,182 offences of domestic burglary The British Crime Survey is the best guide to long and 4,657 offences of violence against the person. term trends in crime as it has employed a consistent approach to the counting of crimes experienced by the Crimes of Violence: Statistics population resident in households over time. Its count of crime is unaffected by changes in level of reporting Martin Salter: To ask the Secretary of State for the of crime to the police, in police recording practice or Home Department what the figure for police recorded police activity. The survey is one of the largest of its violence would have been in (a) 1997-98 and (b) 1998-99 kind and incorporates the experiences of more than using current counting rules; and what methodology 46,000 households in England and Wales. It has one of was used to establish these figures. [321889] the highest response rates of voluntary household surveys and is viewed of high quality by independent experts. Mr. Hanson: It is not possible to provide an adequate The BCS records a 41 per cent. decline in violent crime estimate the number of violent offences the police would between 1997 and 2008-09. have recorded in 1997-98 or 1998-99 based upon the More information on the current counting rules can current counting rules as the effect of changes made to be found here: these rules cannot be fully quantified over time. http://www.countingrules.homeoffice.gov.uk/output/ Additionally, there was a major change to the counting Page1.asp rules in April 1998, where the way in which crime was counted changed and the coverage of offences increased. Departmental Buildings For example, the assault without injury was included for the first time—then termed common assault. Given that the change in 1998 was related to an extended Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State offences coverage and a move to counting crimes on a for the Home Department how much his Department per victim rather than per offence basis it was reasonable spent on office refurbishments in each of the last 10 in these circumstances to assume that the change had a years. [320466] one off impact on trends In April 2002, the National Crime Recording Standard Mr. Woolas: Information on expenditure on office was introduced. This brought in a more victim-focused refurbishments over the last 10 years is not held centrally reporting system, where victim accounts had to be and could be researched only at disproportionate cost. accepted unless there was credible evidence to the contrary. This was proposed by ACPO to ensure better consistency Departmental Carbon Emissions in recording throughout England and Wales. The Home Office published an online report entitled Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the ‘National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS): an analysis Home Department what estimate he has made of the of the impact on recorded crime’ in July 2003 which amount of carbon dioxide emissions from his Department’s evaluated the impact of NCRS on recorded crime figures. buildings in each year since 2005. [316795] The full report can be found here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr3103.pdf Mr. Woolas: Central Government Departments and The report estimates that the introduction of NCRS their Executive agencies report carbon dioxide emission led to a 23 per cent. increase in recording of overall data from their offices annually as part of the Sustainable violence against the person offences in 2002-03. Development in Government (SDiG) reporting process. However, the estimate of 23 per cent. relates to an The latest assessment of government’s performance estimated effect in the first year of operation of the against these targets was published by the Sustainable NCRS. No similar estimate was made for subsequent Development Commission on 18 December 2009 years as changes continued to be bedded in. However, http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/soge2009/ 947W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 948W

The following table provides a breakdown for carbon Departmental Paper dioxide emissions from offices in (a) 2005-06, (b) 2006-07, (c) 2007-08 and (d) 2008-09 by the Department, as previously reported: Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what (a) suppliers and (b) Carbon dioxide emissions brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products his Department

(tonnes of CO2) uses; and what his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those materials. [320028] 2005-06 28,981 2006-07 38,889 Mr. Woolas: During the current financial year the 2007-08 40,353 Home Department’s (a) supplier of (i) paper is Office 2008-09 31,276 Depot and its suppliers of (ii) paper products are Office Depot and Lyreco. Departmental Consultants The brands of paper used by the Department are: Office Depot, Xerox, Mondi IQ, Evolve, Conquerer, Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Niceday, Epson and Hewlett Packard. Department how much was spent on external Paper supplied by brand is as follows: consultants and advisers by (a) his Department and (b) each (i) non-departmental public body and (ii) Table 1 executive agency for which his Department is Supplier Brand Paper responsible in 2009. [317654] Office Office recycled paper 80GSM, A3 and A4 80GSM Depot Depot business paper, everyday A5 80GSM, white Mr. Woolas: Information on the Home Department’s, duplicator paper, A3 and A4 green paper inclusive of the Criminal Records Bureau, United Kingdom 80GSM, A4 minute sheets, various colours Border Agency and Identity and Passport Service agencies, duplicator paper A4 80GSM, A3 and A4 total consultancy expenditure for the latest financial colour printing paper 80GSM and 100 GSM, cream A4 160GSM year available, FY 2008-09, is as follows: Niceday photocard high gloss 240GMS P, various Table 1: Total consultancy expenditure: Home Office headquarters, colours A4 80 and 160 GSM, various colours UKBA, CRB and IPS duplicator paper A4 80GSM, ijet hi gloss A4 Expenditure on consultancy 145GSM, blotting paper, colour printing Financial year services (£ million) paper Mondi everyday A3 80GSM, FSC MC IQ various 2008-09 139 IQ colours paper A3 and A4 80 and160 GSM, FSC MC A4160 GSM card, FSC MC IQ A4 Information on non-departmental public bodies’ GSM, FSC M50percent colorcopy white A4 consultancy expenditure for the latest financial year 200 GSM available, FY2008-09, is as follows: Evolve office copier A3 and A4 80 and 100GSM Table 2: NDPBs’ consultancy expenditure Conquerer FSC MC wove A4 vellum and cream, MC ultra smooth diamond white, FSC MC laid NDPB FY 2008-09 (£) brilliant white A4 100GSM Independent Police Complaints 578,000 Epson Glossy photo paper, A4 167GSM matt photo Commission paper Independent Safeguarding 405,000 Hewlett premier photo, HP C6035A 1/J bright white Authority Packard National Policing Improvement 22,000,000 Xerox A3 and A4 premier paper 90 and 100GSM Agency Security Industry Agency 387,000 The brands of paper products used by the Department Serious Organised Crime Agency 1,800,000 are: Office Depot, Niceday, Sealed Air, Post-It, Pukka, Consultancy and advisory services cover the provision Tyvek, Lyreco, Impega, Sasco, Elba, Tucson, Collins to the Home Office of objective advice and assistance and Black N Red. The paper products supplied by relating to strategy, structure, management or operations supplier and brand are as follows: of an organisation in pursuit of its purposes and objectives. Table 2 The use of external consultants provides the Department Supplier Brand Paper products with specialist knowledge, skill, capacity and technical expertise that would not otherwise be available. Lyreco Post-It sticky notes, indexes, flags Tyvek Envelopes The Department’s overall expenditure on consultancy services represents a small part of the Home Office’s Impega bag C4 manilla rib, ruled manuscript books, tab divider, diaries, envelopes, gussett overall spend, and at the end of the first half of the envelopes current financial year, it stood at some 5.8 per cent. of Lyreco repo notes, paper index, diaries, wire spiral total overall expenditure, down from 8 per cent. in the pads, notebooks, envelopes, film index, previous year. dividers, clipboards, sticky notes, shorthand The Department has in place a series of workstreams books, manuscript books, window envelopes designed to bear down on departmental reliance and Sasco year planner expenditure on consultancy and other external resources, Elba dividers, extra wide dividers including being the first Government Department to Tucson Diary have introduced (in 2009) prescribed daily fee rates for Collins Diaries contractors. 949W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 950W

Table 2 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Supplier Brand Paper products Home Department what the capacity is at (a) Dungavel House, (b) Tinsley House and (c) Yarl’s Black N wirebound perforated books, pads, Red notebooks Wood for detainees; and whether that capacity has ever Office Office gussettt envelopes, window envelopes, been reached in each case. [321096] Depot Depot diaries, manilla envelopes, sticky notes, flipchart pads Mr. Woolas: The capacities at each of the named Niceday calendars, desk calendars, diaries, wall centres are: calendars, year planners, laser labels, pads (a) Dungavel House Sealed bubble lined envelopes Air 197 single males, 14 single females, six family beds in two Post-It indexes, sticky notes rooms Pukka jotta pads (b) Tinsley House 116 single males, five single females, 25 family beds in four As part of its commitment to the Government’s rooms sustainable procurement agenda, the Department’s policy (c) Yarl’s Wood. is to comply, where possible, with the appropriate ‘Quick 284 single females, 121 family beds in 60 rooms Win’ options. Dungavel House, Tinsley House and Yarl’s Wood are ‘Buy Sustainable—Quick Wins’ is a set of sustainable managed as part of the UK Border Agency detention specifications for a range of commonly-purchased products estate and not in isolation. The estate is managed to which include paper. The products assessed were chosen ensure maximum utilisation of beds. In 2008-09, an for their environmental/financial impact, scope for average of 95 per cent. of male and female beds were environmental improvement and political or example-setting occupied at any one time. This is based on management function. information only which has not been subject to the ‘Buy Sustainable—Quick Wins’ are comprised of both detailed checks that apply for National Statistics a set of mandatory minimum standards at the market publications. This information is provisional and subject average level and best practice specifications. These best to change. practice specifications are more stretching than the Due to the configuration of the family accommodation, mandatory minimum. it is highly unlikely that overall capacity has ever been The Department has tailored its catalogue to allow reached in any of these centres. purchasers the option to buy all ranges of paper that comply with the quick wins agenda. Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many staff employed at (a) Deportation: Overseas Students Dungavel House, (b) Tinsley House and (c) Yarl’s Wood have not had a Criminal Records Bureau check Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for the completed. [321097] Home Department how many overseas students were deported from the UK for extremist links in each year Mr. Woolas: Detainee custody and escorting officers since 1997. [321683] are checked by the Criminal Records Bureau before they are employed to work in Immigration Removal Mr. Woolas: No foreign nationals with leave to be in Centres. the United Kingdom as students have been deported on In very exceptional cases where an individual is required national security grounds since 1997. to fill a critical post, they may be employed pending clearance. Detention Centres Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many times staff have been Home Department how many asylum-seeking families employed at (a) Dungavel House, (b) Tinsley House from (a) Afghanistan, (b) the Democratic Republic of and (c) Yarl’s Wood before completion of their Congo and (c) Somalia have been detained at (i) Criminal Records Bureau check in each of the last six Dungavel House, (ii) Tinsley House and (iii) Yarl’s years. [321098] Wood in each of the last six years. [321095] Mr. Woolas: It is not possible to provide a full response Mr. Woolas: The information is not held centrally to this question without examining individual records and could only be provided by checking individual at disproportionate cost. The current process is that all records over the period requested at a disproportionate staff at immigration removal centres and those performing cost. escorting functions (detention escorting officers) who Published National Statistics on the number of adults have detainee contact are checked by the Criminal and children held in detention solely under Immigration Record Bureau before they are employed. It is possible Act powers on a snapshot basis are published quarterly that in the past we may have employed essential staff in and are available from the Library of the House and very exceptional circumstances, without CRB clearance, from the Home Office’s Research, Development and however these individuals are accompanied by a fully Statistics website at: cleared member of staff whilst undertaking their duties http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- and do not have free access to the removal centre or stats.html. lone access to individuals detained. 951W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 952W

Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Dungavel Home Department how many (a) families, (b) House Tinsley House Yarl’s Wood children aged under 18, (c) children aged under 16 and (d) children aged under 10 have been transferred from Children aged 11 18 140 Dungavel House to Yarl’s Wood in each of the last six under 18 years. [321108] Children aged 916130 under 16 Mr. Woolas: The following number of families, including Children aged 31294 under 10 children aged under 18, children aged under 16 and Notes: children aged under 10 were transferred from Dungavel 1. Families may include families with or without children House to Yarls Wood: 2. Figures for children are cumulative 3. Some families and children may be recorded more than once if, Number of Children Children Children for example, they have been detained at more than one removal family under under under Not centre during 2010. transfers 18 16 10 Known The figures provided do not constitute part of national 2010 52 3 05statistics as they are based on management information. (Jan- This information has not been quality assured under Feb) national statistics protocols and should be treated as 2009 36 1 10 35 31 provisional national statistics on children detained solely 2008 91 4 55under Immigration Act powers on a snapshot basis are (Nov- published quarterly. The information is published in the Dec): Control of Immigration: It is not possible to obtain any escorting statistics Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom bulletins prior to November 2008 as the information requested which are available from the Library of the House and could be obtained only by the detailed examination of from the Home Office’s Research, Development and individual records at disproportionate costs. Statistics website at: The figures above are normally used for management http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html information only. They have not been subject to the detailed checks that apply for national statistics publications. Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the These figures are provisional and are subject to change. Home Department how many (a) families, (b) children aged under 18, (c) children aged under 16 and Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for (d) children aged under 10 were detained at (i) the Home Department what the average length of Dungavel House, (ii) Tinsley House and (iii) Yarl’s detention at (a) Dungavel House, (b) Tinsley House Wood in each year since 2004. [321111] and (c) Yarl’s Wood was for (i) a family, (ii) an individual, (iii) children aged under 18, (iv) children Mr. Woolas: The information is not held centrally aged under 16 and (v) children aged under 10 in each and could only be provided by checking individual year since 2004. [321109] records. National Statistics on children detained solely under Mr. Woolas: The information is not held centrally Immigration Act powers on a snapshot basis are published and could only be provided by checking individual quarterly. The information is published in the Control records. of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Published National Statistics on the number of adults Kingdom bulletins which are available from the Library and children held in detention solely under Immigration of the House and from the Home Office’s Research, Act powers on a snapshot basis are published quarterly Development and Statistics website at: and are available from the Library of the House and http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- from the Home Office’s Research, Development and stats.html Statistics website at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the stats.html Home Department what the staff to detainee ratio was at each UK immigration removal centre in each of the Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the last six years. [321184] Home Department how many (a) families, (b) children aged under 18, (c) children aged under 16 and Mr. Woolas: We do not hold annual staff: detainee (d) children aged under 10 have been detained at (i) ratios. However, we are able to establish what those Dungavel House, (ii) Tinsley House and (iii) Yarl’s ratios were at commencement of the contracts for each Wood in 2010. [321110] immigration removal centres and the current position. The following table sets out ratios for detainee custody Mr. Woolas: Local management information indicates officers and does not include managers, supervisors or that the following number of families and children have support staff. been detained at the removal centres between 1 January 2010 and 6 March 2010: Contract commencement Current

Dungavel Brook 4:30 4:30 House Tinsley House Yarl’s Wood House Campsfield 2:65 2:65 Families 6 18 107 House 953W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 954W

Mr. Woolas: In order to join the pilot, families must: Contract commencement Current have at least one minor dependant and no more than can be Colnbrook 2:27 3:44 safely accommodated in one of the pilot flats; Dungavel 4:04 4:09 have exhausted their appeal rights (in respect of the lead Harmondsworth 2:19 2:16 applicant and any other extant claims); Oakington n/a 2:53 have no history of violent behaviour, or inclination towards Tinsley 2:12 2:12 violence; House have no medical problems requiring significant medical intervention; Yarl’s Wood 4:05 4:05 have no child deemed to be at risk under child protection n/a = Not available arrangements; Staff ratios are affected by a range of different factors have no child who is sitting examinations at Standard and such as the type of regime operated and the number of Higher Grades within the next three months. (There may be anticipated receptions and discharges per day. cases where the circumstances are such that the three month period can be shortened—this will be an assessment based on The data does not include the three centres operated the individual facts of the case.); by the Prison Service. be removable; The figures above are normally used for management be able to claim Assisted Voluntary Return (AVR); information only. They have not been subject to the be accommodated in Glasgow under the target contract; and detailed checks that apply for National Statistics on section 95 support. publications. These figures are provisional and are subject to change. Entry Clearances: Overseas Students

Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what ministerial visits have been Home Department what assessment has been made of made to (a) Dungavel House, (b) Tinsley House and the likely impact on the economy of changes to the (c) Yarl’s Wood in each of the last 10 years; and what Tier 4 points based system for 2010-15. [321312] such ministerial visits are planned for 2010. [321185] Mr. Woolas: During the course of the review of Tier Mr. Woolas: I visited Yarl’s Wood in November 2008 4, the student tier of the points based system, the and more recently, Dungavel House, in December 2009. evidence submitted by representative bodies of the education Whilst Tinsley House has operated as an immigration sector, as well as by individual providers, of the impact removal centre since 1996, Dungavel House did not on the economy arising from any changes was considered open until September 2001 and Yarl’s Wood originally alongside all other evidence gathered. A formal impact opened in November 2001, but was closed between assessment will be published shortly. February 2002 and September 2003. I can confirm the following visits by Home Office Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ministers to:- Home Department what evidential basis was used to determine the level of education most susceptible to (a) Dungavel House: fraudulent visa applications when revising the Tier 4 The hon. Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill in 2008. points-based system rules. [321313] The Member for Harrow East in 2005. The Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and the hon. Mr. Woolas: A range of evidence was used to determine Member for Sheffield Brightside in 2004. the level of education most susceptible to fraudulent The Member for Stretford and Urmston in 2003 and Lord applications, including evidence provided by UK Border Foulkes of Cumnock in 2002. Agency staff based in the UK and overseas, internal management information, reports made by education (b) Tinsley House: providers to the UK Border Agency of non-enrolment The Member for Harrow East in 2005 and drop-outs, and other information from the education (c) Yarl’s Wood: sector. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in February 2010. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary under Secretary of State for Entry Clearances: Palestinians the Home Office, the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch , in March 2010. Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for the The information above is taken from local management Home Department what representations he has received information and is therefore provisional and subject to on his Department’s decision not to issue visas to change. Palestinian olive oil producers to visit the UK during I am unable to disclose information about planned Fairtrade Fortnight; and if he will make a statement. ministerial visits for reasons of security. [320376] Mr. Woolas: I have received eight representations Detention Centres: Glasgow from Members of Parliament. The decision to refuse entry clearance to the three Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the Palestinian olive oil producers has been overturned Home Department what methodology is used to decide after consideration by the ECO of the information which families will take part in the Alternatives to provided, and the Visa Section in Amman is in the Detention pilot in Glasgow. [321106] process of contacting the applicants. 955W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 956W

European Court of Human Rights Identity Cards

Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration he has given to Home Department whether his Department has (a) his policy and (b) the UK Border Agency’s commissioned (a) research and (b) other work on the practice on the detention of children following the possibility of introducing compulsory identity cards in judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on future. [318713] 19 January 2010 regarding detention. [320127] Alan Johnson: Identity cards are issued on a voluntary basis and the Identity and Passport Service has not Mr. Woolas: In January 2010 the European Court of commissioned any research or other work on the possible Human Rights ruled on a case of immigration detention future introduction of compulsory identity cards. in Belgium involving a mother and her children. The court ruling was not concerned with the policy on detention as such but the conditions in which the children Immigrants: Detainees were detained. In particular, the fact that they were held in a closed transit centre, which was not designed to Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for the house children and was not appropriate for housing Home Department how many detainees were children. As a consequence of this the court ruled that transferred from Dungavel House to immigration their detention was unlawful. The mother’s detention detention in England in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and was deemed lawful. (c) 2009-10. [321671] The UK Border Agency has 11 immigration removal Mr. Woolas [holding answer 15 March 2010]: The centres, three of which are designed to meet the needs of following table shows the number of detainees who left families with children. We do not therefore consider Dungavel House Immigration Removal Centre in the that the ruling impacts on the UK’s policy of detaining years 2007-10. families with their children as a last resort to enforce their departure from the UK where they have no basis Year of transfer Number of transfers of stay and have failed to leave the country voluntarily. 2007 2,635 2008 2,160 Fraud: Credit Cards 2009 2,389 2010 (January and February) 381 Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Detainee Escorting and Population Management Home Department how many incidents of offences Unit (DEPMU) is responsible for bed space management related to (a) credit card and (b) mortgage fraud within the UK Border Agency’s detention estate. The affecting residents in the London Borough of Bexley unit seeks to minimise movements within the estate in were reported in each of the last five years. [322183] the interests of providing a settled regime and the efficient use of escorting resources. Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not Movement of detainees around the estate is required available from the police recorded crime statistics collected for operational reasons, most often to: by the Home Office. It is not possible to separately Position detainees close to airports prior to removal identify credit card and mortgage fraud from other Position detainees for court appearances offences within the fraud and forgery offence group. Position detainees for hospital appointments The measurement of fraud is challenging as it is Position detainees for embassy/documentation interviews known to be very substantially under-reported to the Facilitate the movement of detainees to more secure locations police. Financial institutions will encourage customers for security/behavioural reasons (both personal and business) to report cheque, plastic card or online bank account fraud directly to them and Ensure bed space is fully utilised. not the police in the first instance. Fraud reported to The data provided includes movements for the reasons financial institutions will then only be reported to the outlined above in addition to those for removal. The police if they are satisfied that there is a reasonable information is taken from data normally used for chance of a suspect being brought to justice through management information only. It has not been subject police investigation. to the detailed checks that apply for National Statistics publications and is provisional and subject to change. In addition to the fraud and forgery offences which are recorded by the police, the Home Office publishes Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for information on plastic card offences identified by the the Home Department how many children have been UK Card Association along with findings from the detained at each immigration detention centre in the British Crime Survey (BCS). The BCS provides a measure last six months for which figures are available; and of plastic card fraud among adult residents in households what the average period of detention was. [321957] which is important because it captures data on incidents which are not reported to the police. However, neither Mr. Woolas [holding answer 12 March 2010]: The of these sources have data at borough level. number of children who entered detention solely under Further information is contained in chapter 4 of Immigration Act powers for the last six months of 2009 ‘Crime in England and Wales 2008/09’, a copy of which is published in table 9 of the Control of Immigration is available in the Library. Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom Third 957W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 958W

Quarter and Table 9.1 of the Control of Immigration Information on the local authority that the individual Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom Fourth was recorded to be residing in at the time of the grant of Quarter which are available from the Library of the discretionary leave is not available and could only be House and from the Home Office’s Research, Development obtained at disproportionate costs by examination of and Statistics website at: individual case records. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html. Internet: Safety Information on the average period of detention is not Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the available, however Table 12 of the above publications Home Department if he will hold discussions with the show the length of time children were in detention as at owners of (a) Facebook and (b) other social the last day of each quarter. networking sites on improving (i) online security and (ii) advice on security for users of such sites. [322016] Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many times Ministers have Mr. Alan Campbell: We take the safety of children signed an authorisation for the detention of a child at and adults on the internet very seriously, and we created an immigration removal centre beyond 28 days in each CEOP (the Child Exploitation and Online Protection) of the last six months. [322379] to develop a law enforcement capability to fight the sexual abuse of children in the online environment, and Mr. Woolas [holding answer 15 March 2010]: Local to provide a body to act as the national centre for this management information indicates that the following crime. CEOP have developed the “ClickCEOP” button referrals for ministerial authorisation of the continued for use on social networking and other sites, to allow detention of a child beyond 28 days under Immigration users who feel threatened to report direct to CEOP. Act powers have been made in each of the last six We expect the providers of these sites to take the months. The information is shown in the following safety of their users seriously, and we would urge them table: to put the “ClickCEOP” button on their website. Number of children The Home Secretary and I will be meeting Facebook Number of families referred to the Minister shortly, to discuss online safety with them. Month of referred to the Minister for for authorisation of Offenders: Deportation initial authorisation of detention detention beyond referral of children beyond 28 days 28 days Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the September 12 18 Home Department pursuant to the answer of 22 February 2009 2010, Official Report, column 372W, on offenders: October 68deportation, what the country of origin of each offender 2009 was; for what crime each was convicted; and from which November 59institution each went missing. [319693] 2009 December 22Alan Johnson [holding answer 1 March 2010]: I shall 2009 let the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell have a reply January 2010 0 0 as soon as possible. February 610 2010 Police: Birmingham Notes: 1. The figures only included those cases where detention continued Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the beyond 28 days and only the first referral for each child. Home Department how much funding was provided in 2. The figures provided do not constitute part of National Statistics as Birmingham for (a) policing and (b) victim support they are based on management information. This information has not [321578] been quality assured under National Statistics protocols and should services in each year since 1997. be treated as provisional. Mr. Hanson: The information available can be found National Statistics on children detained solely under in the following tables. There is no available breakdown Immigration Act powers on a snapshot basis are published on figures just for Birmingham, as it is included in West quarterly. The information is published in the Control Midlands figures. of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom bulletins which are available from the Library West Midlands police authority funding of the House and from the Home Office’s Research, Total Government grants1 Development and Statistics website at: (£ million) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- 1997-98 324.3 stats.html 1998-992 341.0 Immigration 1999-2000 348.8 2000-01 363.3 Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2001-02 384.6 Home Department how many people in each local 2001-023 375.8 authority area have been granted discretionary leave to 2002-03 397.4 remain in the UK in each year since 1997. [321087] 2003-04 437.7 2004-05 442.8 Mr. Woolas: Home Office do not maintain data on 2005-06 468.9 persons in each local authority area who have been 2005-064 468.0 granted discretionary leave to remain in the UK. 2006-07 491.8 959W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 960W

West Midlands police authority funding Police: Milton Keynes Total Government grants1 (£ million) Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2007-08 519.3 Home Department how many (a) police officers there 2008-09 541.4 were in Milton Keynes in each year since 1997 and (b) 2009-10 (planned) 601.3 police community support officers there were in Milton 1 This figure comprises the Home Office Police Grant and certain Keynes in each year since 2002. [321872] Specific Grants and Capital Provision, and also the Revenue Support Grant and National Non-Domestic Rates (both provided by the Department for Communities and Local Government). Mr. Hanson: The available data are provided in the 2 For the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) in 1998-99. table. This information has been collected at Basic 3 For the National Crime Squad (NCS) in 2001-02. Command Unit level since March 2002 for police officers 4 For pensions and security funding in 2005-06. and since June 2005 for police community support Note: officers. Figures are not directly comparable across all years because of adjustments to the base line for funding transfers from general grant. This and other related data are published annually as West Midlands victim support services funding a supplementary part of the annual Police Service Strength Office of Criminal Justice Reform Home Office Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can funding for victim support be found at: (£ million) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html 2001-02 1.383 and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited 2002-03 1.437 in the Library of the House. 2003-04 1.465 Police officer1 and police community support officer2 strength in 2004-05 1.579 Milton Keynes Basic Command Unit, as at 31 March3 2005-06 1.612 Officer1 PCSO2 2006-07 1.622 2007-08 1.622 2002 342 n/a 2008-09 1.886 2003 346 n/a 2009-10 (planned) 1.901 2004 371 n/a 2 Note: 2005 378 11 Figures provided by the Office of Criminal Justice Reform. 20062 383 14 The table above illustrates funding given to West 2007 396 19 Midlands victim support in the past nine years. There is 2008 389 66 no available breakdown on figures for West Midlands 2009 419 73 before 2001. 1 Data for police officers by Basic Command Unit were collected centrally for the first time for the period beginning April 2002. Data Police: Manpower for 31 March 2002 were published by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary. No data broken down by Basic Command Unit are available centrally prior to 2002. Mr. Purchase: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2 Data for police community support officers by Basic Command Home Department how many police officers were Unit are only available from 2005. Data are at 30 June for 2005 and employed by West Midlands Police (a) in 1997 and (b) 2006, from a special collection made until data were included in the at the latest date for which figures are available. main statistical run. Data for 2007 onwards are at 31 March. 3 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been [322263] rounded to the nearest whole number. Figures include those officers on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave. Mr. Hanson: There were 7,113 police officers in West Midlands police force as at 31 March 1997 and 8,613 police officers as at 30 September 2009. Police: Salford This and other related data are published annually as part of the annual Police Service Strength Home Office Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can be found at: Home Department how many police officers were http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html based in Salford in (a) 1997 and (b) the last 12 months and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited for which figures are available. [322410] in the Library of the House. Mr. Hanson: Information on the number of police Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State officers has only been collected at basic command unit for the Home Department how many police officers level since March 2002. there were in (a) 2000 and (b) 2009. [322640] There were 541 police officers in Salford basic command Mr. Hanson: There were 121,956 police officers in the unit as at 31 March 2002 and 585 police officers as at 31 43 police forces of England and Wales as at 31 March March 2009. 2000 and 142,209 police officers as at 30 September 2009. This and other related data are published annually as This and other related data are published annually as a supplementary part of the annual Police Service Strength part of the annual Police Service Strength Home Office Home Office Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can be found at: be found at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited in the Library of the House. in the Library of the House. 961W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 962W

Police: Standards West Yorkshire police authority funding £ million4

Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2006-07 356.8 Home Department what key performance indicators 2007-08 373.3 will be included in his Department’s league tables on 2008-09 387.7 the performance of police forces for 2009-10. [321829] 2008-09 396.1 2009-10 437.6 Mr. Hanson: Following the 2008 Policing Green Paper, 1 For the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NC1S) in 1997-98. the Home Office no longer assesses the performance of 2 For the National Crime Squad (NCS) in 2001-02. police forces in England and Wales. 3 For pensions and security funding in 2006-07. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) 4 This figure comprises the Home Office Police Grant and certain Specific Grants and Capital Provision, and also the Revenue Support launched their assessment of individual police forces Grant and National Non-Domestic Rates (both provided by the (their ‘Police Report Card’) on 11 March for the period Department for Communities and Local Government). 2008-09. Future assessments of police performance will Note: be published by HMIC. Figures are not directly comparable across all years because of adjustments to the base line for funding transfers from general grant. The ‘Police Report Card’ draws information from the West Yorkshire Victim Support Services funding Home Office’s Analysis of Policing and Community £ million Safety (APACS) performance indicators. Office of Criminal Justice The technical guidance for the APACS indicators for Reform funding for Victim 2009-10 can be found at: Support http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/performance- 2001-02 1.0 and-measurement/Guidance_On_SPIs_for_APACS_1.html 2002-03 1.0 Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2003-04 1.1 Home Department when the performance tables for 2004-05 1.2 police forces in England and Wales for 2009-10 will be 2005-06 1.2 published. [321856] 2006-07 1.2 2007-08 1.2 Mr. Hanson [holding answer 12 March 2010]: Following 2008-09 1.4 the publication of the 2008 Policing Green paper, the 2009-10 1.1 Home Office no longer assesses the performance of Source: police forces in England and Wales. Figures provided by the Office of Criminal Justice Reform. The table above illustrates funding given to West Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) Yorkshire Victim support. There is no available breakdown launched their assessment of individual police forces on figures for West Yorkshire before 2001. (their ‘Police Report Card’) on 11 March and copies have been provided to the House Library. West Yorkshire will have received additional funding from local fundraising. Future assessments of police performance will be published by HMIC and can be found on their dedicated Powers of Entry website at: www.mypolice.org.uk Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many individual Policing: West Yorkshire powers of entry are exercisable by local authorities. [319635] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much funding his Mr. Hanson: The list of statutory powers of entry Department allocated for (a) policing and (b) victim including those exercised by local authorities can be support services in West Yorkshire in each year since found on the Home Office website at: 1997. [322694] http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/powers- pace-codes/powers-of-entry-review/index67d9.html?version=2 Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information can be found in the following tables. SERCO West Yorkshire police authority funding £ million4 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much work in progress of 1997-98 243.6 post awaiting processing by SERCO for (a) Case 1 1998-99 252.9 Resolution Directorate North and (b) Case Resolution 1999-2000 258.8 Directorate South there was (i) in each of the last four 2000-01 273.7 quarters and (ii) at the latest date for which 2001-02 289.3 information is available. [320080] 2001-022 282.6 2002-03 302.9 Mr. Woolas: The chief executive of the UK Border 2003-04 318.1 Agency, Lin Homer will provide the Home Affairs 2004-05 328.8 Select Committee, in the next update, further information 2005-06 343.4 on the performance of SERCO within the Case Resolution 2005-063 343.0 Directorate. 963W Written Answers17 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 964W

UK Border Agency UK Border Agency: Pay

Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for the David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the cost to the UK Border Home Department what procedures the UK Border Agency was of overtime payments in the last 12 months; Agency follows in respect of immigration applications how many hours of overtime were claimed for; and if he from individuals suspected of holding extremist views. will make a statement. [320791] [318335] Mr. Woolas: The cost to the United Kingdom Border Mr. Woolas: We do not disclose our methods as to do Agency of overtime payments in the last 12 months so would invite abuse. (February 2009 to January 2010) was £10.5 million out of a total wage bill to the UKBA of £882.4 million. David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the The above figure(s) do not include, for the first two Home Department what procedures the UK Border months, overtime, or wages incurred within the Border Agency follows in respect of immigration applications Force Detection function moved to the United Kingdom from individuals who have been investigated in the US Border Agency from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for suspected links to terrorism. [318336] in the machinery of Government transfers taking place on 1 April 2009. Because rates of overtime can differ in Mr. Woolas: It is our policy not to publicise details of respect of the days on which work falls, and individual anti-terrorist policies in this respect. pay rates of the recipients concerned it is not possible to convert the above figures into hours of overtime claimed UK Border Agency: Complaints for, except at disproportionate cost. Work Permits

Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many complaints about Home Department how many (a) in country and (b) asylum applications submitted prior to March 2007 out of country work permits were approved in each were made to the UK Border Agency’s Case year since 2004. [321599] Resolution Directorate in each of the last five years. [320884] Mr. Woolas [holding answer 11 March 2010]: The work permit scheme closed on 26 November 2008. Mr. Woolas: Robust data can only be provided from Figures for the number of work permits approved in the February 2008. The Case Resolution Directorate received period 2004-08 are as follows: 1916 complaints in 2008 and 1160 complaints in 2009, Work permit approvals relating to applications submitted prior to March 2007. 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

In 78,380 63,795 62,665 54,940 54,575 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the country Home Department how many complaints about an Out of 77,895 73,265 82,305 76,130 69,155 application by a national of a country in the European country Economic Area were made to the UK Border Agency Notes: in each of the last five years. [320890] 1. Figures are rounded to nearest five. The figures quoted are not provided under National Statistics protocols and have been derived from local management information and are therefore provisional Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency does not hold and subject to change. central information to the level of detail asked for in 2. The figures include both new permits and those approved to extend this question. However, data is available relating to all or amend an existing permit or where the individual has moved to types of complaints about the service that the Agency another job with a different employer. Not all those granted a permit provides. In 2008 there were 10,835 such complaints took up the job and some may have been refused entry clearance or received by the Agency and in 2009 there were 12,038. further leave to remain.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 868 WALES—continued Engagements...... 868 Economic Activity ...... 868 Mobile Telephone Mast (West Midlands) ...... 927 Pensioners...... 863 Research Councils (University Funding)...... 864 WALES...... 859 St. Athan Defence Training College...... 865 Crime Levels...... 859 Tax Credits...... 860 Devolution Settlement ...... 866 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 17 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 59WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 63WS Laming Report (Government Response)...... 59WS Police National Database Code of Practice...... 63WS JUSTICE...... 63WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 61WS Land Registry ...... 63WS 2009 Annual Report on Human Rights...... 61WS Prison Service Pay Review Body Appointments..... 65WS FCO Services (Performance Targets) ...... 61WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 66WS Devolution (Policing and Justice)...... 66WS HEALTH...... 61WS TREASURY ...... 59WS Social Work Task Force ...... 61WS Turks and Caicos Islands (Counter-Terrorism) ...... 59WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 927W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Departmental Consultants...... 927W Schools: Swimming...... 916W Departmental Lost Property ...... 927W September Guarantee ...... 917W Departmental Theft ...... 928W Teachers...... 917W Diamond Jubilee 2012...... 928W Teachers: City of York ...... 918W Insolvency: Gloucestershire ...... 929W Teachers: Early Retirement ...... 918W Learning Disability ...... 930W Teachers: Wolverhampton...... 919W Redundancy: Public Sector ...... 930W Truancy...... 919W Stroud ...... 931W Students: Radicalism...... 932W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 877W Community Development...... 877W CABINET OFFICE...... 865W Departmental ICT ...... 877W Civil Contingencies Emergency College ...... 865W Departmental Lost Property ...... 877W Departmental Internet ...... 865W Departmental Pay ...... 878W Unemployment ...... 866W Homelessness: Young People ...... 880W Housing: Sustainable Development ...... 880W Non-Domestic Rates...... 881W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 905W Non-Domestic Rates: Ports...... 881W Building Schools for the Future Programme: Planning Permission: National Policy Statements .. 882W Lancashire ...... 905W Preventing Violent Extremism Community Children: Carers...... 905W Leadership Fund...... 882W Children: Databases...... 906W Supported Housing: Young People ...... 882W Children: Human Trafficking...... 906W Trade Unions ...... 883W Children in Care: Missing Persons ...... 905W Free School Meals...... 907W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 888W Further Education ...... 907W Butterfly World Project ...... 888W GCSE ...... 908W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 888W GCSE: Leeds ...... 908W Departmental Lost Property ...... 889W Hotels ...... 909W Museums and Galleries: Newcastle upon Tyne ...... 890W Mass Media: GCSE ...... 909W Museums and Galleries: South West...... 890W National Curriculum Tests...... 909W Theatre: Young People ...... 891W National Safeguarding Delivery Unit...... 915W Pupil Exclusions...... 915W DEFENCE...... 853W Pupils: Learning Disability...... 916W Afghanistan and Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations.... 853W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 854W Doctors: Vacancies...... 923W Air Force: Military Aircraft ...... 854W Ealing ...... 923W Armed Forces: Bomb Disposal ...... 856W General Practitioners and Dental Services: Pendle. 924W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 856W Health Services: Disadvantaged ...... 925W Armed Forces: Discharges ...... 857W Home Care Services ...... 926W Armed Forces: Rescue Services ...... 858W Motor Neurone Disease: Health Services...... 926W Defence: Procurement...... 858W NHS: Medical Treatments ...... 926W Departmental Theft ...... 858W Trade Unions ...... 927W Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations...... 859W Nimrod Aircraft...... 859W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 941W Asylum ...... 941W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 932W Asylum: Repatriation...... 942W Biomass ...... 932W Crime: North Yorkshire ...... 942W Carbon Emissions...... 933W Crime: Salford...... 945W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 937W Crimes of Violence: Statistics...... 945W Climate Change: Publicity...... 937W Departmental Buildings...... 946W Climate Change: Research ...... 937W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 946W Departmental Lost Property ...... 938W Departmental Consultants...... 947W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 938W Departmental Paper...... 948W Domestic Appliances: Carbon Emissions...... 939W Deportation: Overseas Students...... 949W Energy: Billing ...... 939W Detention Centres...... 949W National Grid ...... 939W Detention Centres: Glasgow ...... 953W Oils: Waste Disposal ...... 940W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 954W Radioactive Waste: Transport ...... 940W Entry Clearances: Palestinians ...... 954W European Court of Human Rights ...... 955W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Fraud: Credit Cards...... 955W AFFAIRS...... 891W Identity Cards ...... 956W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 891W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 956W Animal Feed ...... 893W Immigration...... 957W Animal Welfare ...... 893W Internet: Safety ...... 958W Biomass: Air Pollution...... 893W Offenders: Deportation...... 958W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 894W Police: Birmingham...... 958W Breeding of Dogs Act 1991 ...... 895W Police: Manpower ...... 959W Cattle: Animal Welfare...... 895W Police: Milton Keynes ...... 960W Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act Police: Salford ...... 960W 2005 ...... 896W Police: Standards...... 961W Dairy Farming ...... 896W Policing: West Yorkshire ...... 961W Dogs ...... 896W Powers of Entry ...... 962W Dogs: Crime...... 897W SERCO ...... 962W Floods: Maps...... 897W UK Border Agency ...... 963W Government Car and Despatch Agency...... 898W UK Border Agency: Complaints...... 963W Milk: Imports ...... 898W UK Border Agency: Pay ...... 964W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 899W Work Permits ...... 964W Rural Payments Agency ...... 899W Rural Payments Agency: Legal Costs...... 899W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 851W Somalia: Overseas Aid ...... 851W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 900W 1 Carlton Gardens ...... 900W Burma: Forced Labour ...... 900W JUSTICE...... 851W Burma: Gems...... 901W Care Proceedings ...... 851W Departmental Lost Property ...... 901W Children in Care: Child Trust Fund ...... 853W Departmental Meetings ...... 902W Departmental Surveys...... 902W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 851W EU Countries: Overseas Workers...... 902W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 851W Greece: Death ...... 902W Intelligence Services ...... 903W Morocco: Christianity...... 903W SCOTLAND...... 853W Nigeria: Politics and Government ...... 903W Departmental Surveys...... 853W Overseas Residence: Death...... 904W Sudan: Elections ...... 904W TRANSPORT ...... 859W UN Commission on the Status of Women ...... 904W Cycling...... 859W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 860W HEALTH...... 919W Departmental Energy...... 860W Cancer: Health Services ...... 919W Electric Motors...... 861W Cancer: Medical Treatments ...... 921W Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties...... 861W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 921W Railways: Coventry ...... 861W Departmental Legislation ...... 921W Railways: Tickets ...... 862W Departmental Surveys...... 921W Railways: York...... 862W Departmental Theft ...... 922W Roads: Greater London ...... 862W Doctors and Nurses: Manpower ...... 922W Rolling Stock ...... 863W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 883W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 866W Business: Government Assistance ...... 883W Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning ...... 866W Revenue and Customs: Data Protection...... 884W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 868W Tax Collection...... 884W Departmental Theft ...... 867W Taxation: Domicil ...... 885W Departmental Travel ...... 868W Taxation: Gaming Machines...... 885W Disability Living Allowance: Tribunals ...... 869W Trade Unions ...... 886W Employment: Disabled...... 869W Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments ...... 886W Government Car and Despatch Agency...... 869W Housing Benefit ...... 870W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 870W WALES...... 864W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 871W Departmental Internet ...... 864W Occupational Pensions: Regulation...... 871W Incinerators: Merthyr Tydfil...... 864W Pension Credit: Glasgow...... 872W Industrial Action...... 864W Pension Credit: Milton Keynes ...... 872W Unemployment ...... 864W Pension Credit: York...... 873W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 874W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 887W Social Security Benefits: Publicity ...... 876W Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 887W State Retirement Pensions...... 876W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 17 March 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 859] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 879]

Dementia Strategy [Col. 880] Bill presented, and read the First time

Organ and Tissue Donation (Mandated Choice) [Col. 881] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr. Borrow)—on a Division, agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords] [Col. 884] Motion for Second Reading—(Chris Bryant)—agreed to Programme motion—(Mr. Watts)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 927]

Personal Oxygen (Public Transport) [Col. 928] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Children and Young Persons (Regulated Activity) [Col. 937] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Children and Young Persons (Controlled Activity) [Col. 940] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) [Col. 943] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Northern Ireland [Col. 947] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Migrant Domestic Workers (Visas) [Col. 251] Port Business Rates [Col. 274WH] London Hospitals [Col. 281WH] Rural Payments Agency [Col. 307WH] Private Rented Sector (Durham) [Col. 316WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 59WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 851W] [see index inside back page]