STATE LIBRARY OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA

WELBORN WORLD WAR ONE COLLECTION

Transcript of an interview with

Sir Norman Brearley

ACCESS

RESEARCH: Open

PUBLICATION: To be advised of request to publish

STATE LIBRARY OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA - ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

DATE OF INTERVIEW: 23 August 1976

INTERVIEWER: Suzanne Welborn

TRANSCRIBER: Julia Kay Wallis

DURATION: 34 mins, 40 secs

REFERENCE NUMBER: OH4103/1

COPYRIGHT: State Library of Western Australia Transcription 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

Interview with Sir Norman Brearley 23 August 1976.

Brearley, Norman (NB)It’s mainly to do with the effects of the First World War on Western Australia, is that it?

Welborn Suzanne (SW) That’s right, yes. (NB) Would you like a little table between us, or?

(SW) No, no. That’s all right. That’s fine. (NB) That’s near enough?

(SW) Yes. I’d like to know what you were doing at the time when it was announced that there was a War. (NB) Oh. Oh, well, that’s easy. You haven’t started it?

(SW) Yes. It’s going. (NB) We‘ll start with when the War broke out in 1914, I was serving an engineering apprenticeship in Perth and I was in my final year. I decided to complete that year before I enlisted.

(SW) How old were you? (NB) I was twenty-four then.

(SW) Can you remember what you were doing when you heard about the war? (NB) Yes. I was at this engineering apprenticeship work in a foundry in Perth, engineering foundry. The announcement came of course as we took it in our stride and said, “So, there’s a War. That means we are almost certain to be dragged into it and what do we do?”

So I applied myself to the balance of my term with this apprenticeship and remained just giving thought to the war occasionally and making up my mind that the best thing that I could think of would be to join the Flying Corps. Having been interested in motor cycles and motor cars up to that point, in their repair and maintenance and riding them and driving them. I had a mechanical nous which was deeply ingrained into me.

(SW) Were you unusual in this? Were there many men who wanted to join the Flying Corps?

2 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(NB) Well, I wouldn’t know that. But I think that -

(SW) In Western Australia? (NB) Ah, well. In Western Australia there was no Flying ... There was no branch of the Australian Flying Corps1. There was a branch in Victoria at Point Cook but the number of aeroplanes they had you could count on the fingers of one hand. They were of doubtful reliability. It occurred to me that, rather than go East and wait in a long queue, I would work my passage to England, because as an apprentice, I had no money; so how could I get to England unless I worked my passage? So, I decided then to work my passage to England and join, or try and join, the Royal Flying Corps2.

The Managing Director of the Engineering Shop said to me, “How are you going to England?”

I said, “I’ve scraped enough money together to go in the lowest fare on one of these ships.”

He said, “You won’t do that. Don’t think you’ve learnt everything in the engineering world. You are going to work your passage in the engine room. I will arrange it.”

Do you want to change that?

(SW) No, that’s all right. (NB) So, he did arrange it and I was taken on in a Government ship called The Bambra which was a German ship that had been seized by the Federal authorities and placed at the disposal of the WA Government. Well, this ship was then in demand overseas because of the shipping losses already incurred and it was sold to the British Government and it had to go home. No, I’m wrong in that respect. I went on the Bambra up to Darwin and back as my first introduction as a junior engineer. Then, the ship that was sold to the British Government was called The Western Australia. It was two thousand three hundred tonnes.

(SW) It wasn’t the same German ship?

1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Flying_Corps 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Flying_Corps 3 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(NB) No, no. It was a Government owned, West Australian Government-owned ship.

[00:04:53] (SW) And when did you sail on that for England? (NB) In 1915. Towards the middle of 1915.

(SW) So you’d heard about the casualties at Gallipoli before you left? (NB) Oh yes.

(SW) How did that affect you? (NB) Oh, no affect at all. The War was on so there was adventure waiting for you.

(SW) It didn’t put you off? (NB) No. no. The excitement of war is something that grips young men. Fortunately for the nation. I don’t there is any feeling of fear. You just say, “Well, so what? They’ve had it. I might miss out.”

I couldn’t get there quickly enough. I thought the War might end before I got there, so let’s hurry. That was the attitude of young men.

(SW) But some of the troops who went later, say that they went with more responsibility than the ones who went formerly, because they knew about the casualties. You don’t think that’s so? That they went with some - (NB) Well, those that were going into the trenches, I agree that it was a pretty grim prospect. The same as those that went into the Flying Corps depended upon their own ability to control their aircraft and to survive encounters with the enemy in the air.

But that’s all part of the excitement of flying in wartime. But those who went in the trenches, I think it was a terribly unpleasant prospect to be cooped up in these narrow trenches unable to get adequate protection from enemy shootings.

(SW) Was any pressure put on you to enlist? (NB) Oh, none at all. Oh, no. No, it was a case of, “Oh, let’s get there before this show ends.”

Because this is excitement. This is really something that you want to be in.

4 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(SW) Did any of your friends go with you or were you alone on the ship? (NB) I was alone on the ship because I was the most junior engineer and we had no passengers. We were just taking this ship to the UK to be sold. The experience I gained from an engineering point of view has always been of very great value to me.

(SW) How long did the trip take? (NB) Something like three months.

(SW) On the ship? (NB) On the ship.

(SW) And was there any danger from? (NB) Yes, well, the danger was when we entered the English Channel because we could see the masts and funnels of sunken ships and we knew that the area was mined and that there was the risk of being blown up. But even that, you always thought, well, there are life boats and there are life rafts, and so don’t worry.

(SW) So when did you actually join the Flying Corps? (NB) I went to the War Office, as it was called in those days, and joined a long queue of young men waiting to enlist in the Royal Flying Corps. I was interviewed when my turn came and was accepted, subject to a course in military discipline and knowledge at a school in Bedford in England. Having passed the examinations there, after a period of training, I was then enlisted in an army branch which was called “The Third Battalion King’s Liverpool Regiment3 because the Royal Flying Corps was filled to its approved establishment and the Flying Corps accepted then army personnel attached Royal Flying Corps. So we were designated then, Third Battalion King’s Liverpool Regiment, attached Royal Flying Corps, later on. Later on.

(SW) Had you ever been up in a ‘plane? (NB) Oh no.

(SW) Had any of them?

3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Regiment_(Liverpool) 5 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(NB) No. Not to – oh, there was some waiting in the queue had flown at Aero Clubs and that sort of thing, particularly English people.

(SW) And were there many Australians? [PAUSE]

(NB) What was the last …?

(SW) It was about joining the regiment? (NB) We were then attached to the Royal Flying Corps, later on to become part of an expanded unit.

(SW) Was this the end of 1915? (NB) This was in August 1915.

[00:10:07] (SW) Were there many Australian with you? (NB) No. Very few.

(SW) Were there any other Western Australians? (NB) Not that I know of at that time.

(SW) Did you feel lonely? (NB) No. Not a bit.

(SW) You got to know these other men? (NB) Oh, yes. When you go into camp, in an army camp or any other unit, you are quickly part of it.

(SW) And did you feel homesick? (NB) No. Not a bit. No. The excitement was there. It’s an extraordinary feeling to know that there is a war and you are going to be part of it and you want to get there before it’s over and join in the excitement.

(SW) And what did you feel about the Germans? (NB) Well, of course the propaganda was all against the Germans. They were just brutes to be beaten. Save the nation, get these people out of their wicked waste of life and destruction. The propaganda was so strong that it make you feel that you had to get at them as quickly as you could.

6 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(SW) Do you think that during that First World War the Flying Corps took over as the glamour fighting unit from the cavalry? I think before the War, the cavalry was considered the glamour unit. (NB) Well, the Flying Corps was regarded I suppose you would call it a “Glamour Unit” because it was a thrill to be flying. The same as horsemen; it is a thrill to be on horseback. But to be flying an aeroplane was really something and then the possibility of meeting an adversary in the air, armed with machine guns. You say, “Well, I am going to have a crack at this chap.”

It was part of the excitement that drew you in and made you feel excited and hopeful of success.

(SW) When did you start flying? When were you up in the air? (NB) Oh, in, I think I had my first flight late in August.

(SW) August when? Which year? (NB) 1915.

(SW) I see. So when did you start flying in the war over France? (NB) I went to France in June 1916.

(SW) So you had two – how many? More than two years in the war? (NB) Since the war started? Oh, no. When I joined the Flying Corps in France, I had five months until I was shot down in November. I was never fit again for active service flying. Because -

(SW) What happened in that? (NB) Well, I got into a fight with – two of us tackled seven Germans and it was a bit much against us. We were both shot down. But I had the misfortune to, when I picked out one man that I was going to concentrate on, I levelled my sights on him and pressed the trigger and the gun jammed and no shot was fired from my gun. We only had one gun on each of our ‘planes. His shots shattered my propeller so I was settled right from the start.

(SW) Were you able to see the men in the other ‘plane? (NB) Oh yes. Only their heads and their helmets and goggles, because their bodies were inside the aeroplane.

(SW) Was it thrilling while it was on? How did you feel about it?

7 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(NB) Oh, well, the excitement is … Well, to start with there is a feeling of fear. I mean, if a man hasn’t got fear in him, he hasn’t got courage. You must have enough courage to overcome your fear and that’s the way it goes. Some people can’t sum up enough courage to control their fear.

(SW) Did you see any of the big battles from the air in the trenches? (NB) Only the smoke and the burst of artillery fire and that sort of thing.

(SW) Did you fly over the Somme area? (NB) No, I was north of that.

(SW) Where were you? (NB) Well, first in Ypres Salient. That’s Y-P-R-E-S. We always called it Eep [Phonetic Pronunciation] and it has got it has own correct name in the Belgium area and as far south as Arras. It was near Arras that I was shot down.

(SW) And were you injured? (NB) Yes. I was shot through both lungs and I was followed down by this adversary when I was helpless and trying to reach our trenches he kept on shooting at me. It wasn’t until I was a few hundred feet from the ground that he hit me, his bullet going through both my lungs.

[00:15:07] (SW) And you managed to land the ‘plane? (NB) Well, I was almost unconscious but I felt that if I was able to control my actions for another few moments I’d be able to land the aircraft which I did. But I couldn’t reach our trenches. I had to land it between the German and the British lines which were about two hundred yards apart.

(SW) That’s No Man’s Land? (NB) No Man’s Land. Yes.

(SW) And then what happened? (NB) Well, I knew that they would shell my aeroplane. They always did, to destroy it. I crawled away from it and got into a shell crater so that I had a certain amount of protection. Then everything was quiet until there was a lot of shooting occurred from rifle shots. I couldn’t

8 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

understand that but I learnt later that a party of Germans had come out from their trenches to try and get me. Our men knew what was going on through their periscopes and they waited until they were out there to find that I’d gone and they were up on the parapet and killed them all. So that was what I heard as a little local war. Quite exciting.

(SW) And they rescued you? (NB) Well, at night time, I crawled on my hands and knees because I was almost unconscious. I dragged myself over to where our barbed wire prevented any further movement on my part and I called to them and they said, “We’re coming.”

They dragged me through a hole in the wire which they used for their own purposes to get past the barbed wire.

(SW) And which troops were they? (NB) I couldn’t tell you now which ground troops they were. They were British –

(SW) British were they? (NB) Oh yes. They were British troops.

(SW) And then you were taken back to England were you? (NB) Yes. I had a few days in the Casualty Clearing Station in France and then went back –was taken to England where I had three months in hospital. After that, I was granted sick leave and came to Australia. I got married and went back again with my wife and re-joined the Royal Flying Corps.

(SW) This is all during the War? (NB) Oh yes. This was 1917.

(SW) When were you made a Major? (NB) In 1918. I had command of a station in England, not far from Rugby which is near the centre of England. I was promoted to the rank of Major then.

(SW) And then you flew in France again? (NB) No, I was never fit for active service again because of my war wound. I was supposed to be in delicate health and not fit to fly but I

9 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

managed to get the doctors to allow me to go back into flying as an instructor of instructors. I had a command of a school teaching instructors how to instruct.

(SW) And what affect do you think the War was having? When you came back to Western Australia, how did you find Western Australia? (NB) After the War, you mean?

(SW) No. During the War when you were sent home. (NB) I came back in 1917 and I had a few weeks here and then went back. Well, of course we just used to look at the newspaper reports of what was going on and it all seemed to be sort of stationary and a permanent affair as though neither side was gaining anything.

(SW) Did you know your wife before you went, or …? (NB) Oh, yes. We had known each other for years.

[00:19:09] (SW) What did you feel about the War, now it is over? What do you feel now about it, looking back? (NB) The stupidity of it. Really it is a stupid business to destroy life and destroy property because some people want power or expansion of their nation so it is ruinous.

(SW) Did it have a big effect on Western Australians? Or could you see any visible effect of that War on Western Australians when you came back? Was there a lot of bitterness and distress? (NB) No. I think relief was the main thing. Let’s get on now with civil life now this stupid business is over. Let’s get to work.

(SW) At the beginning of the War was there a lot of celebration about it? (NB) The troops going away caused a lot of excitement. Flag waving and bands playing and send them off and sort of “Come back soon” attitude. But it was only a sort of sign of encouragement for those not to be downhearted.

(SW) It as a universal feeling for the War? Or was there maybe …? (NB) No. A universal feeling for the troops who were going to play their part in their nation’s survival. It was something that was of national importance that they should do that.

10 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(SW) Was there a feeling of national importance or of Empire, of the British Empire? (NB) Well, it’s all the same thing really, isn’t it?

(SW) Oh, at that stage it was? (NB) Yes.

(SW) Yes. Do you think this went on during the War in Western Australia? (NB) Oh, undoubtedly. There were a lot of organisations built up to send food parcels to the troops and that sort of thing.

(SW) And there wasn’t much anti-War demonstrations? (NB) No. Very, very little, if any. I can’t recall any. Of course, I was away during most of the War.

(SW) No individuals stood out as anti-War? (NB) No. I can’t recall any anti-war people here.

(SW) What did you feel about conscription? (NB) I thought it was the right and proper thing to do.

(SW) Do you think that the First World War was one of the most vivid experiences of your life? (NB) Oh, undoubtedly it was because at those years of age you have formative years in which lasting impressions are created. When you go to the Second World War, you’re so much more mature, you are helping to train others to go into active service, as I did in the Royal Australian Air Force.

(SW) Do you think that the First World War began your career? Do you think that you still would have done what you did if you hadn’t been to that War? (NB) Well, I couldn’t have done what I did do because during the First War I learnt to fly and that was the only skill, apart from engineering, that I knew. I knew that my skill in flying had been brought to a very high level by the people that I was associated with, especially in joining an organisation which was created in 1917 to teach flying instructors how to instruct pupils, never having been instructed before. I was never taught to fly. I learnt to fly by just going up and becoming acquainted with aeroplanes. But later, in 1917, this school for

11 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

teaching instructors how to instruct made a very great impact on the Royal Flying Corps.

(SW) Were there many Western Australians who wanted to join the Royal Flying Corps towards the end of the War? (NB) Oh, yes, there were. Because what happened in the early days of the First World War, was they were short of pilots. They were able to produce aeroplanes then fast enough to overtake the number of pilots available. So, to the Australian troops that were serving in Egypt and in other areas, they offered opportunities for them to transfer to the Australian Flying Corps which was later on, made the Royal Australian Air Force and was quite distinct from the Royal Flying Corps although they all worked in together.

[00:24:26] (NB) The business of flying was so effective, so thrilling. We used to direct the shots of the artillery on the ground by watching them fire their guns. By co-operation with them, we’d have signals between the ground and the aircraft we couldn’t receive so they used to put out sheets on the ground in the form of letters. They would put sheets out like this, ‘K’ or ‘T’ in answer to our – We could send Morse code; but we couldn’t receive. We’d send down “Are you ready to fire?”

They would put out a letter which means “No”.

Then we would circle around waiting and waiting. We would see a letter go out which might have been ‘K’. That means, “We are ready to fire”.

We’d just repeat it: “Are you ready to fire?” and the letter would remain there so we said, okay. Then we’d down a letter, perhaps ‘G’ and that would be fire. We’d be in a position to observe where the shell was destined to land on the enemy side. We knew what the target was because we had it marked on our maps.

Then we’d see the shell burst, the gun flash as the shell was on its way. Then we would see the burst and we’d send down, “Two hundred yards short”, or “Eighty yards east”- whatever it was and

12 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

they would make their correction then and keep on firing until we gave them “Target okay” and then they would plaster that target.

(SW) Was that the main use of the Flying Corps or was it to shoot down the German ‘planes? (NB) No. That was only one branch. I was only doing that for a few days in a squadron that didn’t have fighting capabilities. I transferred from that squadron to a single-seater, which was a fighter squadron. We then had to try and keep the air clear of Germans so that our observations ‘planes and our artillery spotters didn’t get interfered with by these German fighters.

(SW) Did the Germans have more fighter ‘planes than the … ? (NB) No. They were fairly even and their speeds were fairly even. We didn’t mind meeting the Germans at all because we had about the same speed and capacity as they had.

(SW) Was there a competitive element amongst pilots as to how many ‘planes were shot down by each man? (NB) Oh, yes. Oh, well, that just happened as part of the business of meeting and disposing of the enemy if you could.

(SW) And the more a man shot down … (NB) Well, his score went up and he was regarded as being unusual.

[00:27:25] (NB) We were taken to a place behind the lines In Belgium on the ground and we were briefed on dropping phosphorous bombs onto crops and buildings on the enemy side. We were told of the dangers of these bombs which were under our observation ‘planes. This is before I joined the single-seater fighters. We were told not to come below five thousand feet. If anti-aircraft fire burst near us and we suspected that our containers of the phosphorous might be punctured, we were to let them go because in ten seconds they’d be on fire and the ‘plane would be burnt and we didn’t have parachutes.

So, we went over the lines and we dropped these bombs and when we dropped them, they had a trigger, a spring-controlled trigger that sprung apart when it was released and it punctured the container

13 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

which was only a light aluminium container. The air getting into there, lit the phosphorous and it went down as a flaming fire to set fire to crops and what-not.

Well, the wind caught this burning stuff going down and they were carried away from the target because after all, it was only burning phosphorous going down; it wasn’t like a heavy bomb. The wind carried it away and it didn’t do any good at all. So they abandoned them. But why I mention this is that one chappie, before we got near the lines, before any anti-aircraft fire came up, one chap dropped his bombs and went back home. A coward – just a plain coward.

(SW) Where did they drop? (NB) Outside of the lines.

(SW) Did they do much damage? (NB) No. Fortunately, no. But it could have done.

(SW) And what happened to him? (NB) He was sent back to England but I don’t know what they did to him.

(SW) Was his British? (NB) Oh, yes. He was an Englishman. They are the sort of things. I know I was on another patrol in single-seater fighters with another man and we were destined to go over the German side and to meet Germans to try and stop them from coming our way. When I was over the trenches on my way east, my petrol tank developed a leak and I had to keep pumping to keep the petrol flowing into the engine. But I had a small gravity tank which held twenty minutes petrol and I thought, “Well, if I engage in a fight. I’ll have to break off. I will have to go onto the gravity tank and break off the fight after at least ten minutes so that I’ve got enough to get away and start pumping and get petrol from the main tank again.”

Well, in spite of that, I contemplated turning back because it was rather a hazardous thing and this other chap turned back and left me. So, I continued on. I carried out my part of the programme. Fortunately, I didn’t encounter enemy in that time and I kept pumping

14 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

the petrol to use the petrol in my main tank. When I got back, I asked what happened to the other chap.

They said, “Oh, he came back with engine trouble.”

But we couldn’t find any engine trouble.

So those were the sort of incidents that rather made you feel that all men are not alike and that there are amongst us, some who just lack the courage that is necessary to face up to adversity.

(SW) Do you think that this was an individual thing? You don’t feel that there was a feeling of difference in armies? (NB) No. These were unusual incidents. Very rare – especially in the Royal Flying Corps. They were very rare incidents but I came across them in a way that made me realise that I am glad that I don’t have that lack of confidence that would warrant me quitting when the odds were against you.

[00:32:05] (SW) In the Royal Flying Corps did you see any difference – national differences between the British, the Canadians or the Australian pilots? (NB) No. The different nations were undoubtedly different in their attitudes towards jobs but there was a note of harmony all the way through.

(SW) What do you mean about this difference? (NB) Well, some were much more casual than others. The Canadians, for instance, I used to regard them as being very casual in their attitude towards the job, but reliable and determined.

(SW) Do you mean casual towards discipline or casual towards …? (NB) Yes. Casual towards discipline was one very noticeable thing.

(SW) In Canadians? (NB) Canadians and Americans.

(SW) And what about Australians? (NB) Australians were casual towards discipline too but the British, the English were very much in favour of, or subservient to, discipline.

(SW) Do you think this was a good thing? (NB) It is a good thing in the armed services, yes.

15 1976.08.23 SLWA (World War One Veterans) Sir Norman BREARLEY

(SW) Were the Australians more so? Usually, it is noted in Australia that the Australian troops lack, or had less discipline than other troops? (NB) Well, that is the case too. My experience of it was that they did lack that discipline.

(SW) But no more than the Canadians or Americans? (NB) No. I think the Americans were not as prone to discipline as the Australians and neither were as prone to discipline as the English. The English discipline was much more rigid.

(SW) Do you think this is because the Americans came into the War later? (NB) No. It’s just the typical American attitude towards life in general, I think.

END OF INTERVIEW 00:34:20 minutes

16