00:00 So I spend a lot of time online. I'm on Twitter in particular and just two or three weeks ago I came across quite a flurry of activity around a book that has just been published. It's a book that charts the phenomenal rise of whole city football club from the lower leagues right up into the premiership. The author of that book is Richard Gardham and Richard, thanks so much for coming. Again. If I give him to me, I have to get you into the studio. You're raising money with this boat for Dove House as well? That is correct. So I was quite keen really. I love to support of House now Richard, I'm perhaps one of the least sporty people you're ever likely to meet. So I needed a sidekick for today. A little bit of help with the football related questions and I'm pleased to say Nick Quantrill, I'm also an author and a very passionate supporter of whole city has joined us in the studio too. Thanks nick for coming in and there was a pleasure. Okay. So Nick, I'm actually going to handover to you perhaps to launch this podcast with, you know, and I sensible, um, football related question. That's very kind Jerome. Well, let, let's start then Richard, with the actual book on this called the decade, there's an awful lot of stuff in there about the previous times when it be four, the decade kicks in the 2000 to 2010 periods. So kind of what's the thinking there?
01:17 Is that that was almost accidental. Rarely. Um, I, I mean just, just to sort of talk back my, I come from a family. My Dad is a very keen focus on collector and he's very keen to get people's memories down to, to sort of collect oral history. Um, so I think maybe I picked a little bit up from him. And then in about 2013 I read a couple of books, one about Mohammed Ali, one about the American Basketball Association in the 1970s that told stories in the oral history style, sort of speaking to the people who were there at the coal face, so to speak, and who, um, you know, intertwining that with a little bit of narration from the author. And, and I just thought, you know, whole city of have this fantastic decade, wouldn't it be great if somebody wrote a book about that, you know, about this decade that we've hard spoke to everybody involved, got it down so that it was just there and you know, for that, for posterity.
02:12 Rarely. Um, so then after a few years I thought, well, nobody else is doing it. Why don't I, so the intention was just to record that decade. Um, and I decided on the tie and I still, I still stunned by it. Maybe the decades would have been better in retrospect, but, um, but so, so I sort of started interview and I got, I got Chris Chilton at first and he was the first interview I did. He's, um, whole cities record goal scorer for the, for the uninitiated is a massive figure in the club in the 1960s and early seventies. Um, and you know, he's chatting to somebody like Chillo you can not ask him about his career and, and, and you just sort of have that opportunity in an early stage. I was speaking some of my heroes when I started going from there, from the 80s, you know, the, the sadly late Pete skipper who was fantastic and people like blue eye Roberts and I just, I just had all this, all this stuff from their time that, that, you know, so I just thought, well, I've got a, I've got to use it.
03:09 You know, I can't have all of these brilliant stories and memories and not use them. But then I also thought having that coverage of the previous decades helps put into context why this decade was so special. There were, those were, you know, the, the, the seemed to be sort of whole city up, two modes for then going up to 2004 for the first century of their existence. There was either near misses such as under Ken Wagstaff Christianson in the 1960s and in 1910 and under each Carter in the 50s and things like that or there was just the absolute doldrums, particularly as you'll be aware, nick in the 1990s and I thought, well if I cover that, that will set up that decade very nicely. I mean I could easily probably release three books out of this thought having 200 nights, thousand words and the average novel I think is 90,000 so, so, you know, literally three bucks worth of stuff in there.
04:06 Um, so yeah, so once I got rights in it, I did that and, and, and, and, but I just, I wanted it all to be, there is one on one I quite late in. I've written a lot for fanzines such as amber to I like writing a lot. And I do think that if it's done properly, there is a market there for it. Um, you know, the book's written in a way where people can dip in and out of it. You know, if you feel in a bit, a bit sort of down or depressed, he can read about, you know, can read rocket in chilies, cellos to fall. You can read the, you know, the back to back promotions or the when blister for if you feeling a bit too happy and feeling a bit guilty can read the decade about nineties, you know, it's like you've so, so, so it doesn't necessarily, you don't have to sit down necessarily and read it cover to cover.
04:46 Although it does seem, judging by the feedback on, on social media that lots of people are doing that. We just saw on Amazon the second review here that's, that's written is someone's put, I actually get quite emotional while reading it. Yeah. You're getting this really emotional response to what you've written. I think that that's, um, it's, he's, because it's, you know, people's lives are entwined around sporting teams in a way that, that you don't really get with much else in life. You know, I often think that that football's popularity is explained to an extent and an all sports. So He's, is that as a child it's the most grown up thing he can do. And as a grown up, it's the most childish thing he can do. You know, it's like, um, you know, and I think that you, you, you go through so much football isn't just about turning up on a Saturday and watch in twins, two main kickaball about, it's the friends you make.
05:39 It's the memories you make. It's the, the journeys to and from away games and things like that. And that's what I wanted the book to, to help conjure up. It's so those emotions, I didn't, you know, getting stories about people on the train home after the 2008 playoff final and things like that. That to me is like gold dust for the book because everybody saw dean winters, his goal and, and, and you know, getting that stuff in those great, but, but you also want those, those sort of slightly quirky and memories that, that a lot of people will have gone through and we're part of that great occasion for these people. But, but don't, it didn't necessarily get recorded at the time. And I think that's an important thing to get through when it comes to sort of support him, football teams in particular. You know, it's about more than just attending the game. 06:22 And I hope that the book can help, can help with that really and help sort of get across a lot of those, those feelings and those memories. I was actually a youth worker upon holding us road, um, in the year that whole city went up. 2008. Yes, yes, yes. I think you just mentioned that it didn't come from my head. Were you the in Victoria Square for the celebration events? I wasn't. I mean, I just, I live in London. Um, and, um, I, I just couldn't get back up for that. I, I just, um, ex ex branded so much emotional energy. I was just absolutely drained for the rest of that weekend because I had lots of people staying at our house in, in cricklewood cause it was net just near Wembley stadium will lift at the time. Um, and yeah, it took me a long time to recover from that night owl.
07:10 So, so I couldn't get, get to the, um, the celebrations. I, um, one of the people who has been fantastic for the book is a chap called Dave Richardson, who was the whole senior photographer and he was, um, on a cherry picker above the, above the crowds taking photos. And I've got a few pictures in the book, but his, I mean, I hope he can release a book at some point if the photos, he's got cars that day alone, you know, he's, uh, it's fantastic. And I remember having to drive up to holding this road or into East Hall to pick up some of the youths down into Victoria Square. And coming back down into the city. The um, just the sunlight that the sky, the whole city seemed to be on fire. Yeah. Actually the sky seemed to reflect the colors of the team if that particular day.
07:56 So it was one of those really vivid memories I've got. And I think that that day is an important one in that it shows how, and again, it's covered in the book and it's something that he and Ashby talks about in the forward as well. Just how the, the fortunes of a football team can come reflect on a city, can give it a profile that, that it, it, it lacks, you know, I, I remember in um, 2009, a friend of mine went to go trekking around Kenya and she found herself in a, in a hut in this remote village. And she sent me a photograph of everybody in this hot celebrating a whole city goal. That, which God against Manchester United because everybody in this village, in this remote area of mass Homero ever, it was, um, we're asking our funds, Aspinall was the villages team. So they were supporting whoever was playing Manchester United.
08:40 I think we'd equalize day if you remember the game. It was around Christmas. Um, I think Craig vague and it's got a penalty and it just, you know, these surreal moments, you know, a lot of villages in Kenya supports, it's celebrating the whole city gold and, and football gives a city that reach and that profile in a way that I don't [inaudible] nine impossible for a city the size of wholesale to gain many other ways. Yeah. I think one of the big successes of the book is that you're kind of really takes you into the dressing room as well on the football side of things that, that sentence of you saying, we all know Dino's got at Wembley, but in the book, if it was accurate actually in the change room with the place as well, because you've kind of managed to get that really close access.
09:15 Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm, I'm, I'm glad you think that and there, there are some really good, I mean there, there are two of the elements. There are two sort of standout moments for me in that there's, there's a great bit about, uh, a punch up the NSB and Mark Joseph had at halftime and again against Swansea and, and little bits like that that obviously, you know, if that had been released in the press at the time, it would have been front page of the whole Daily Mail. And, you know, it would have been this big scandal when it didn't matter that it was one of those things that was over before it started. And now we can look at it in a book like this in retrospect. And I'm pretty much laugh at it. But, uh, and getting little insights like that I think is something that, that is a reader, you know, you'll, you'll quite quite appreciate.
09:54 But I think the other thing, um, and uh, he's the Phil Brahms Halftime team talk, which just to explain to people, um, whole city in 2008 it had the best, yeah. Off the club's history by, by an absolute distance players giving him absolutely everything. The club were on boxing day, the club of foreign l down against Manchester City. Um, you know, it was Manchester City had one player in their team who would cost more than every whole city player in the club's history combined. Um, and we were losing again that we're always going to lose and truth. Um, Phil Brown kept the team out on the pitch and, and you know, I don't know if you remember nick boots at the time, they're not social media really went to town over it, but locally the story was more, oh, you know, everybody's overreacting. It wasn't that big of a thing, but it turns out based on what I've been told from people in the dressing room after, it was a big thing and it did affect how the players felt and how they viewed their manager and what the atmosphere in the dressing room was like.
10:51 And, and again, things like that. I think the, the book the book can go into now because everybody's detached from the club, everybody's left is that, you know, this, they say it's close enough for people to still be able to remember quite well, but, but there's enough distance for people beat to be able to speak freely because nobody's involved with the club anymore. And, and yeah, I think that that's, um, that's something I was really, really striving for with the book, so I'm, I'm glad he failed to close or rocks in the playoff. Final last sentence. I didn't realize just how bad Michael Turner was. Sorry. Brown. Yeah, fine. On one leg essentially. Yeah, no, everything was kind of, it was the team. I sort of just drop deeper and deeper just to cove, so yeah. Not, you know, we had no cover for him, anything like that.
11:34 Yeah. And, and, and stuff like that, that, those little insights, again, I don't think I'm normal the plays where as well leading up to that game, because I remember that week leading to apply [inaudible] want to do anything to sort of get to London and get to Wembley and the players are just carrying on like it's a normal game. Yeah. There's this lovely little bits in there, you know, like the, the Boas Mile and Matt do you sort of talking about each disease, you know, what's in the film east is east and going to bed and, and the guys I've been like table tennis tournaments and things like that, whereas I literally didn't sleep a week then the night before because I was just terrified of the consequences of what was happening. But the players obviously I was terrified to go through all those things. Don't, you know, and um, yeah, yeah. 12:13 But, but it's, yeah, those little insights I think. Yeah. Just, um, the, the, what that, you know, are very much a, my questions to try to get those sorts of sort of, uh, insights into the book. So hopefully, yeah, that's been delivered upon to take it back to the beginning of the decade. I suppose it really started in 2003 don't see with the new stadium and we, do you think it's kind of the council get enough credit for what they did for the club? Um, no, no I don't really, um, I was really apt to speak to Tom at v in the book. It was one of the counselor that I tried to get patty dial as well, uh, who was, uh, the, the big finger behind it. Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, no stadium, none of this would've happened. Adam Pearson probably wouldn't have come in, you know, they're both free park was as much as I absolutely loved the place and I would give anything to watch one more game at for park.
12:59 It was falling down when you know, the, the ball hit the roof of the best. Stan did it have all the masonry falling down in your hair? It was just, it was, it was a bit of a, it was Saturday. It'd been let to get, you know, left to get into that stage. But it was, um, derelicts basically. Uh, and we needed something to trigger something that whole city and the council did that and, and yeah, it's, it's a shame that the relationship between the council and the club is what it is now because I don't think that the council's role in kickstart in this success that we've had, you know, you can't, you can't forget that you shouldn't, it's a, it's been very important. Can you sort of pinpoint that one moment when you felt that whole city was on the way up? You know, cause obviously we moved down in 2003 when it was still a club that was kind of effective of going nowhere [inaudible] pizzeria now.
13:51 It was the kind of moments on the way up to that before that I have finally, I think that the, there are certain games where, you know, the, the, the, the development was incremental. And I think there are certain games where there were real sort of standouts where you just go, Whoa, you know, something special's happened there. There was the home when in 2003 against one Z, which was a night March where we had this 25,000 seats stay, I'll stay stadium and people were locked out, you know, and this was a club getting 4,000, five, six years previous to that, you know, that that was a sign. Something big is happening. There was the four to when it Sheffield, Wednesday in 2000 December, 2004 where we took, nobody knows how many we talk because the Sheffield Wednesday could not cope with lean scary at Hillsborough obviously. Um, Sheffield Wednesday couldn't fit it in.
14:39 Uh, and we took a probably around I think 8,008, eight to eight and a half thousand, you know, w we played since late in football one, four, two as Adam Pearson said, that was the night that made whole city, uh, force in English football. So I think there was the, those two games in the early stages certainly set us up. You know, that there was real power signs, you know, that something big was happening. Um, but, but that, that to me then he, even after those games, I was only, if I look back, I was only thinking, you know, we, we've got a chance here to maybe become a half decent championship team again. Even at that point I was never thinking where on the way to the premier league, I'd probably didn't believe we're going to get in the premier league until we beat West Brom to one at the hall phones in 2008, I think it was the February, March time, um, Caleb Folan scold a brilliant light winter, you know, we had about 3000 away funds there and we've been on a good run of form, but you were sort of waiting for, for, for it told to sort of, so something to bring us back down to earth and that, that game I think made us realize and, and, and you know, again, the players felt the same.
15:47 That game made us realize that there wasn't any team in that division was going to struggle to handlers. If we turned up, which we did game after game after game for the rest of that season. Fascinating. Always listening to till your friends to such passion because I'm always amazed at what you actually can recall from your heads. My youngest son has just the same, he's a passionate fan of health city and he can, he can recall dates, names and not the order that the goals were scored in, that sort of thing. I can see them girls. I rich was talking about bitch to Ellie. I did, I had her again, swans and barbies. Volume. Yeah. Where do you feel you are on the sort of fandom scale? Are you a super fan? It's very, it's varied over time really. You know, I mean when I was a kid I just didn't miss a home game but wasn't going to away games.
16:39 And then you know, started going, uh, going through a way games more in the 90s. And then when I moved to London I was going to more away games and home games at the moment. So I've got two very young children. It's difficult for me to get quite so many games. So I'm probably as low as I've been for a little while, but my eldest is six Joshua and he's just started going to his, he's been to three away games now and absolutely loved it. So you know, so I'll start picking it up again now that I will, you know, be away from the kids for a day of a weekend. You know, it's so, um, so I think as your life changes it, it sort of the, he struggled a little bit at times to get to as many games as you would like to go to. But you always know that like, you know, the, that will come again.
17:20 Um, so whole city or Nah, you know, I'm a whole city fun 24 hours a day, seven days a week, then that's never going to change. But at the same time, you know, it just how, how physical that support is just, it depends on what stage in life you're at and what are the responsibilities you have, I suppose at the moment. You know, I have to be a dad before anything else. And I can't, if I'm working five days a week, I can't just go off for another day and say goodbye to the kids. I'll go with my wife because I'm, yes, the punishment would be today. Um, so, so yeah, so it's varied. But yeah, I'm looking forward to the day when both my sons and myself and hopefully my wife as well, if I can persuade that will be open sticks and going off to the, you know, that my favorite way days were always like the bomb and the talkies and the south ends and things like that where you can have a bit of fun around the game as well. And then going off and doing that together.
18:10 Very, very important. Really phenomenal. That whole got into the premier league. But how important was that for the city of Holly itself? What have people told you about that? 18:21 Um, I think it, it gay. I mean whole heart, a real image problem in the nineties I think, you know, and, and it was, it was all just silly things, you know, like that dreadful Eric and crap towns book, which, you know, I think it was about 80 people deciding on what the crap is. Tom Was, it was meaningless, but for some reason it got into the national psyche and, and it was just nonsense, you know? And I think the whole people are very defensive around about the CTP because of that. And, and, and rightly so. You know, I love whole, I don't know, I moved to London, but whole will never not be my home. It will never not be the [inaudible]. I still read the whole LML webpage everyday. All of my Twitter things a whole based, you know, I, I'll never not be a whole Lens Ian.
19:03 Um, and, and, but when I would speak to people in London, moved to London in 2003 and for all that time, you know, people would, you know, you mentioned you from holy, it would be it crap towns, John Prescott, a little bit about the football. And little bit about the rugby league and that would pretty much be it. But then it just sort of started, you know, after 2008 in immediately people would go to dean windows there we got things like Phil Brown's halftime team talk. That was their instant thing. And that's just gone on and on and on and developed and developed and developed. The city of culture thing, you know, that that was all, you know, nobody's mentioned the crap town thing to me in London for a long time now it is the city. Oh yeah. Whole was the city of culture, wasn't it?
19:46 Oh well what happened, what we know and, and, and I think that there's been a lot of positives for hollow over the past decade, but whole city get into the premier league was the first and the other things might have happened had whole, not the whole city, not gone into the premier league, but, but you can't help. But you know, there's just all the, you know, the Siemens factory even like look, Campbell winning an Olympic goal, things like that. I'll fc winning back to back challenge cup finals. You know, it's just been this real sort of decade of, of good news really. And, and, and to as altered the, the city's image as far as that my, you know, from my experiences living being a whole Lens Ian in London. Um, and, and yeah, it just, it just gave people something else to notice about whole that was a positive rather than the many negatives that seem to have just been emanating from the national media for, for what seemed like far too long.
20:38 Have you actually gone about writing the book? I, it's a huge time, isn't it? On your lap. It's quite a weighty sort of book as a taken a of effort
20:48 to, right. Are you an early morning writer write in the evening when the kids have gone to bed? I'm a, I'm a tube train. Right. I, um, it, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I live in north London, um, and you know, we'd have a half hour, an hour and a half on the tube every day and that was put to very good use, sort of writing in this, you know, the, the interviews were done on evenings or weekends. Do, you know, or I would take days off and come up to Holland, try to interview three or four players in, in a day. Um, and then sort of my, yeah. Um, right, you have got, got very sort of understanding of lawyers whereby, you know, if there was a fairly quiet day, I could maybe just sit there and spend an hour or so just quickly writing up an interview or something like that. So it was, it was one of those things of just fitting it in when I could, you know, in this time, you know, we've also, I've moved house, had another child, you know, and sort of how it had lots of other things.
21:43 But, um, you know, I, I've just been so passionate about it and I've just loved doing it so much. And I think if you love doing something, then, then the time that it takes doesn't really matter because it's, it becomes a hobby rather than, than, than, you know, sort of a commitment. It's just something that, you know, I could, I couldn't, particularly when I was writing my beats, I just couldn't wait to get around to those because I just, I love writing and I love writing about whole city and, and, and so it was, it sort of, it was difficult really to, you know, I'd like be out running and come up with like a really good idea for a paragraph and sort of get home as quickly as I could and quickly jot it down and things like that. So it, it varied really is to, to when I would write, but, um, it was just any opportunity I got because it was just such a, such a lovely thing to, to be able to work on.
22:28 You've interviewed over a hundred people or was there anyone on your list that you haven't managed to speak to? Um, there was, there was one for purely personal reasons. I'm a Nyquil, maybe a back me up on this, but I really desperately want to speak to Tony Norman, who was whole cities legendary goalkeeper of the 80s and I absolutely love it was like one of my first heroes. I've spoke to a lot of my early arrows from the eighties people like Billy test and when he asks you and, and, and you know the Pete skipper who recently separate, sadly passed away. But um, Tony was like, he's just real heroin. I was, I was a ballboy on in 1985 at a game and he was just so lovely, tall, the ball boys, he's just such a fantastic guy. And unfortunately he's been very ill recently and I just couldn't get him.
23:13 So that was more a personal thing for me. I don't think the book necessarily, you know, it was from a time before the focus period of the book from the decade itself. There was only young Melby who was the club's manager for 17 games, but made three of the biggest signings of the decade in that time he signed and Ashby the clubs legend, or Captain Stuart earlier, who you know, was a one mango and machine in, in the 2004, 2005 season. And Stuart Green, who was a very effective attacking midfielder for us, but he, he, he was such a defy divisive presence in the camp. Um, put a lot of noses out of joint. Uh, and you know, I think he managers for 17 games. Can you remember names? So going show. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was nothing, um, and was, was sacked, but he's also a very big media personality and I just tried and tried and tried to get him.
24:04 I tried contacting Liverpool where we did a lot of work, the Liverpool Post, uh, his wife on Twitter. I managed to speak to his son on linkedin and had a very brief conversation, but then that line went dead as well. So he was the only person who I was who, who that sort of that completionist in me. You know, when I look at the book, I just thought things would have just been nice to get him a lot of, you know, so there are absolute credit, there were a lot of people who, who had, you know, their time at host disease is a pretty much a lowlight of their career. People like Phil Parkinson, who was a similar managers from all be in that he was only there for a few months, but made some very big signings, spoke to him and he was fantastic. Very honest, very really nice guy.
24:43 Um, Mark Hateley who, uh, I can see nick wincing, um, who am I? It's just for a year and a half, I say managed as football. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean it was an interesting interview with him because he seems to think he did a good job, but he left us six points a drift at the bottom of the bottom table. So, uh, yeah. Um, so it's a, but yeah, so it was a real shame. I didn't get Jamar be, but I think, um, uh, I've, I've got way more than I could have dreamt I would have got when I started out on the book. So, uh, I'm not going to beat myself up too much on that one. So that won't be a revised edition coming out into the, there will be a revised edition once I've got through all of them, very minor areas that are going to really niggles at me.
25:25 Uh, and, and I will, uh, I will read that because it's a self published book on Amazon so I can just go in and correct them and re Redo all of that. So, um, yeah, I, there will be a slightly revised edition, but I want to keep it in this form, I think as much as possible load, but largely because, you know, people have already bought it and, and you know, I don't want to necessarily do anything. I'm so great. So let's just, 20 pounds is a lot of money. I know that, um, for all that, a lot of it's going to charity and it is a very, very big book and hopefully people will feel that it's value for money. 20 pounds is still a lot of money and I don't necessarily want people to feel that there's something better out there that they could have got when they've paid all that money for the books.
26:04 So, um, there'll be very, very, very light revisions if anything. Yes. So people can buy it online through Amazon. Yes. And I'll be putting the link on the web page test and goes out. Um, are you meeting people face to face for any sales to any events? Yeah. Um, well I mean just to, the book will hopefully be on sailing. Watson's very soon in whole and the cook price bookshop. I think I've got the name right in Beverly. Um, and that we're hoping to sell them in dove house shops as well throughout East Yorkshire. Uh, and then we have very exciting launch night on this coming Saturday, may the fourth at 7:30 PM Mr Shoes where, um, I will be there. We will be selling books. Uh, and we will have several legends of from the club's history attending. Um, so promises to be a great night. You can just turn up by the book, get it signed and sort of hang around and things.
26:58 You can, if you want to book a table to have something to eat, I think you need to ring Mr choose and then gets 10 pound per head to our access to the buffet. But um, yeah, it's, it should, it's all done through the whole city supporter's trust, which is the independent fan group. Um, so yeah, it promises to be a great night and we're, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Any other burning questions from you, nick, before we close? Well, I think I'd have to ask Richard. It is, he's probably as feral suiting moment, you know, a decade was a one particular, maybe not a lot of the playoff final. No, I, I didn't enjoy the playoff final. Um, I sat there feeling desperately sick for the whole thing and by the time the final whistle had gone, I was just spent. I just couldn't, uh, yeah, I, from the second day windows is goal went in.
27:43 I just felt like my heart was sitting in the pit of my stomach. I, it was, it was one of the greatest days of my life and I hated every second. Um, the, I think the Ian Ashby goal at Yeoville, I was at Yeovil that day. Um, and just to explain to the uninitiated, basically, whole city had had 19 years without a promotion, which in English football is quite an achievement. Um, and you know, we've been blessed promoting I think 1985 was it when we got promoted and then we had a few good years and then we'd sort of experienced the 90s, which was one crashing low after the next, you know, we nearly went out of business four or five times and it was just disaster after disaster after disaster and in person to cove or move to the KC. But still things couldn't get going. You know, we kept going through managers could just couldn't get anything right.
28:31 And it just felt like this, the club was cursed. And then we just had this season where everything worked. We've got Peter Taylor and his manager, we've got some great players in. And when we got that first promotion after 19 years, it came through a very late goal from our captain and Ashby. And I think when that goal went in, he could celebrate the goal for it being a goal. But you could also celebrate it because you knew were up at that moment. And you know, we'd, but people like myself and nick had been through, you know, we'd gone to the, the mccalls fields and the talkies and places like that and seen as lose four or five nil and just, you've gone through all these depressing things. And, and it was this first ray of light after 19 years of, you know, uh, just, uh, hell early as far as football, football support goes. And it was, um, so yeah, that, I think that is a, of the decade is probably my favorite moment because you could just celebrate it for what it was within that time, but it just meant everything. You know, uh, uh, a goal to secure a promotion from the fourth tier in the grand scheme of things. Isn't that great? But given the context, given what horses she had been through for nearly two decades beforehand, that just, yeah,
29:42 I think that was probably the moment that without always the most euphoric. Certainly that's been a fascinating listen. Um, I always sort of love just watching and listening to people are so passionate about their particular topic. Thanks so much, Richard, for coming in. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. If you'd like to follow Richard and pitch questions to him, you'll find him on Twitter at Richard Gardham. Yes, that's, yeah. Yeah, that's right, isn't it? Yes, I think so. I make sure those links on the web page. Anyway, thank you. Thanks also to nick for coming in. I was nice to talk a whole city. Very good. Um, I've been to Jerome Whittingham this has been another hullisthis.news podcast. I hope you'll join us again sometime soon. Bye for now.