Wednesday Volume 496 15 July 2009 No. 112

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 15 July 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 271 15 JULY 2009 272

in Wales through the economic downturn, and that we House of Commons always put the Welsh economy on the road to recovery— unlike the last Conservative Government, who let tens Wednesday 15 July 2009 of thousands of young people become a generation of lost workers. We are being proactive in helping the economy to get through these difficult times, and that is The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock the truth.

PRAYERS Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Is the Minister aware of the excellent work conducted by the support unit at the Department for Business, Innovation and [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] Skills, together with Lord Mandelson’s office? It helped to secure a very substantial loan from the Royal Bank BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS of Scotland so that a new manufacturing operation called Regal Fayre can be set up in the town of CONTINGENCIES FUND 2008-09 Montgomery. Will the Minister pass on my thanks, specifically to John Stewart in that department? Will he Ordered, also praise the Royal Bank of Scotland for living up to That there be laid before this House, Accounts of the Contingencies its requirement to support new business? Finally, may I, Fund, 2008-09 showing:– through the Minister, ask whether the Secretary of (1) a balance sheet; State for Wales will consider opening that new plant, (2) a cashflow statement; and which is a real success story and will lift the town of (3) notes to the account; together with the Report of the Montgomery out of recession? Comptroller and Auditor General thereon. (In continuation of House of Commons Paper No. 879 of 2007-08.)—(Mark Tami.) Mr. Speaker: Order. From now on, I want shorter questions and pithy replies.

Oral Answers to Questions Mr. David: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned some very good news; I have seen his early-day motion 1877 on the subject. The Secretary of State has been very involved and has made what appear to have been effective WALES representations. I say on my right hon. Friend’s behalf that I am sure he would be delighted to open the facility, The Secretary of State was asked— which is another clear example of how the Government are being proactive to make sure that in every part of Wales, in every sector of the economy, we are doing Manufacturing Industry everything possible to ensure that we get through this economic downturn as quickly as possible. 1. Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Assembly Government on the performance of manufacturing Last month, when I asked the Secretary of State why industry in Wales. [285606] France, Germany and even Italy had delivered on their automotive assistance programmes while our £2.3 billion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales scheme, which was announced back in January, had not (Mr. Wayne David): My right hon. Friend the Secretary paid out a penny, he said: of State has regular meetings with the First Minister on “The money is coming through”—[Official Report, 10 June 2009; the Welsh economy. We are working closely with the Vol. 493, c. 777.] Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the Welsh manufacturing sector receives all the assistance necessary In a written answer to me last week, a Business Minister for it to emerge from the global economic downturn confirmed that still not a penny in loans or loan guarantees well placed to meet the challenges of the future. had yet been given to support the industry. Is a grand announcement followed by seven months of inaction Julie Morgan: Is my hon. Friend aware of the good this Government’s idea of being proactive and providing news for my constituents in Cardiff, North? Quotient real help now? Bioresearch is to take over the business of GE Healthcare, thus saving 75 highly skilled jobs, many of them belonging Mr. David: Let us be clear about the effectiveness of to my constituents in Whitchurch. In addition, the the measures being taken. The car scrappage scheme is company is to invest up to £15 million in a new facility being very effective; it is having an effect on the automotive in Cardiff. Is that not a vote of confidence in manufacturing sector and a positive impact as far as British Steel and in Cardiff and the rest of Wales? Corus are concerned. It is extremely useful. We also need to recognise that we have—[Interruption.] Mr. David: Indeed it is. I congratulate my hon. Friend on the hard work that she has done on that and other Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for having to interrupt issues in her constituency.I am aware of the announcement the Minister. A practice is growing up in which Opposition and I welcome the fact that £15 million is to be invested Front Benchers ask a question and then witter away and 75 posts are to be saved. That shows that we are from a sedentary position. That is not acceptable, and I wholeheartedly committed to helping people and businesses do not want it to happen again. 273 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 274

Mr. David: The reason the Opposition are wittering make representations to the Treasury and to his colleagues away, as you so correctly put it, Mr. Speaker, is that they in Cabinet to ensure that the scrappage scheme is extended do not like the answers. The answers show clearly what and enhanced to increase car sales throughout the UK the Government are doing effectively in intervening in and to allow companies such as Kaye too see a way the Welsh economy. We have mentioned the car scrappage through the recession? scheme; let us also not forget that the future jobs fund will create 150,000 jobs across the United Kingdom as a Mr. Hain: We will certainly look at the hon. Gentleman’s whole—about 7,500 in Wales—with an investment of request and bear it in mind, because the company is an about £50 billion. That is effective. There is also the important local employer. However, the truth is that the ProAct scheme, from which 63 companies and nearly car scrappage scheme has had a big effect on new orders 4,000 workers benefit, and the ReAct scheme. All those for cars. The de-stocking has ended and a lot of car measures contribute materially to improving the lot of plants are now starting to produce again, and it is the people of Wales and improving the Welsh economy. partly because of the Government’s action that that has happened. Aluminium Production Health Care Provision

2. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): What recent 3. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with (a) ministerial colleagues discussions he has had with the First Minister on and (b) the Welsh Assembly Government on aluminium co-ordination of integrated health care provision production in Wales. [285607] across the England-Wales border. [285608] The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): At The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): least the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham The UK and Welsh Assembly Governments have worked (Mrs. Gillan) was not Twittering in the House. closely together to agree the revised protocol for cross-border I commend my hon. Friend on his tireless efforts on health care provision. I have long promoted the integration behalf of the workers of Anglesey Aluminium. As he of conventional and complementary health care. I knows, I have had regular discussions about the future congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his work as chair of the company with colleagues in Government and the of the all-party group on integrated and complementary First Minister, as well as with Rio Tinto and the unions. health care.

Albert Owen: I thank the Secretary of State for that David Tredinnick: I am grateful to the right hon. reply and for his efforts, as well as those of UK Government Gentleman. Did he, in his discussions with the First Departments and the First Minister on behalf of the Minister, refer to his work as Secretary of State for Welsh Assembly Government. Does he agree that although Northern Ireland on the pilot study there? Has he these are very difficult times, the parent companies of discussed the cost-effectiveness of integrated health care? Anglesey Aluminium in my constituency, Rio Tinto Will he be discussing that with the new Secretary of and Kaiser Aluminium have a moral and social obligation State for Health in England? to accept the generous offer that the Government have Mr. Hain: I have discussed with my right hon. Friend made—nearly £50 million—to assist them through this the Secretary of State the success of the pilot to which difficult period so that they can continue to commit to the hon. Gentleman refers, which I established as Secretary the work force and the local economy for the next of State for Northern Ireland between 2006 and 2008 30 years, as they have indicated? and which had spectacular results. As a result of doctors being able to prescribe complementary health care free Mr. Hain: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. We have on the NHS, some two thirds of participating doctors put nearly £50 million on the table as a result of agreed that their patients’ health had improved. About cross-Government collaboration, including with the Welsh half the patients took fewer painkillers, half took less Assembly Government, and that should be taken up by conventional medication, including prescriptions, and Rio Tinto and Anglesey Aluminium. Many businesses two thirds had less time off work. This is therefore a would give their right arm for that kind of support. win-win situation. I hope that the pilot will be extended Anglesey Aluminium and its parent companies have to England, to Wales, back into Northern Ireland—because benefited from decades of loyal work on the island, and the new Government there have not extended it—and I hope that these companies will think again. Meanwhile, to Scotland. we are exploring all options to try to secure employment in that factory. Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend have discussions with the Welsh Assembly Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Government to ensure that there is a strong relationship—as No one will underestimate the importance of aluminium strong as ever—concerning orthopaedic surgery, especially smelting to the island of Anglesey, but other smaller with Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt hospital in Oswestry? companies throughout Wales, such as Kaye in Presteigne I have to declare an interest, as does the hon. Member in my constituency, which is involved in aluminium for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), because about casting producing components for the automotive industry, 12 years ago we were patients there. It is important for have been badly affected by the recession. The scrappage patients in north Wales and mid-Wales to be happy in scheme introduced on the continent has been very their minds that the relationship will continue. successful, and Kaye has benefited from that because it exports most of its production. However, the scrappage Mr. Hain: I agree with my hon. Friend. My hon. scheme in this country has not been so successful, and it Friend the Minister and I will certainly bring that up is due to end in March 2010. Will the Secretary of State with our counterparts in Cardiff. It reflects the fact that 275 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 276 waiting times are coming down in Wales, that patient Mr. David: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. care has been improving, and that there are more nurses, She is absolutely right that the future jobs fund is doctors and health care staff than ever before, all of extremely important to the UK, and especially Wales. which would be put at risk if the Conservatives came to There are more than 200 bids nationally, and we will office with their savage cuts policy. examine the Welsh bids closely in the very near future. My hon. Friend makes a good suggestion with regard Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I have recently to young people, because it is extremely important that had discussions with representatives of north Wales we do everything possible to ensure that young people GPs about the practice of placing in institutions people benefit from as many Government schemes as possible. who have complex medical needs, often psychiatric There is a clear contrast between the commitment that needs, without adequate referral or adequate support we have given to young people and what happened services being in place. Will the Secretary of State under the previous Administration. Young people were discuss with his colleagues who have responsibility for forgotten about and a generation was literally ignored. health in England the possibility of writing to health Finally, my hon. Friend mentioned that flood prevention and social services bodies prevailing on them to refer schemes are important. I know that that certainly is the properly and to provide proper services when they place case in her constituency because of the River Loughor. people with complex medical needs in Wales? Her suggestion would be a good example of using the future jobs fund for the needs of young people and the Mr. Hain: I am obviously concerned to hear what the particular needs of her constituency. hon. Gentleman says, and I will certainly take that matter up. If he cares to write to me with any specific instances, I will be happy to make representations on David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the Minister his behalf. agree that employment and training will be badly affected in Abergavenny as the result of the closure of Hill college? Will he speak to the Welsh Assembly Government Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): The Secretary about reinstituting the money that they have slashed of State will know that the report of the Select Committee from Coleg Gwent’s budget, which has brought that on Welsh Affairs on cross-border health services identified about? the inadequate payment of English hospitals by the Welsh Assembly Government as one of the principal barriers to the timely treatment of Welsh patients. To Mr. David: As the hon. Gentleman knows, discussions what extent does he regard it as part of his role to have taken place as far as that college is concerned, but co-ordinate discussions between the Department of Health a tremendous amount of investment has taken place in and the Welsh Assembly Government, with a view to further education in Wales. There have also been a ensuring that English hospitals receive fair payment number of schemes, such as the ReAct programme, that and Welsh patients receive fair and timely treatment? To have fitted in well with what has been delivered by what extent is he actually doing so? further education colleges in Wales. Such co-ordination and symmetry is absolutely essential to ensuring that Mr. Hain: As the hon. Gentleman knows, a protocol education expands to benefit the population as a whole, has been agreed that is designed specifically to deliver and we must do our utmost to ensure that there is what he is asking for. If he knows of any shortcomings, training and retraining for all people. I am happy to make further representations. That is my job. However, the protocol achieves what he wants, and Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South I hope that it is working effectively. Pembrokeshire) (Lab): The Minister will know that work has already started on the £1 billion, 2,000 MW Training and Employment gas-fired power station at Pembroke, in my constituency, and that there will be up to 2,000 construction jobs. A local firm, Dawnus, has already won a contract and is 4. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): What recent discussions employing local labour. Will he join me in encouraging he has had with the First Minister on measures to other Welsh and UK contracting companies to bid for promote training and employment in Wales. [285609] work on the power station, so that we maximise the number of local jobs and UK jobs for UK workers? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne David): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr. David: I very much agree with my hon. Friend of State and I have regular discussions on training with that. The fact that a new power station is being built in Ministers, including the First Minister. Investment in his constituency is a massive vote of confidence in the training is key to ensuring future prosperity in Wales local economy. Indeed, that very point was made in The and placing Wales at the heart of economic recovery. Economist only a few weeks ago. On his specific point about employment, there is a marvellous opportunity Nia Griffith: Does my hon. Friend believe that the for the work force of the area and the region. We in the future jobs fund could be used for a suggestion by my Wales Office are certainly doing our utmost to ensure constituent Gerald Hughes to set up a scheme in which that local people derive the greatest possible benefit young people would take part in training and preparing from that investment. To highlight that fact, I know full for floods by dealing with flood defences and by learning well that my hon. Friend had a meeting with my right how to fill sandbags and help people whose homes are hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Monday to discuss flooded? Will my hon. Friend meet me to see whether the matter. He can be assured that we are fully behind that can be taken up in other areas of Wales as well? him on it. 277 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 278

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): In these The defence training project at St. Athan would bring days when finances are so important to the police, we huge opportunities to Wales. Will the Minister confirm must praise their work at community level. That key that the Secretary of State is co-ordinating with the role is recognised in the Building Britain’s Future document. Ministry of Defence and that the pre-contract agreement In my constituency of Swansea, East there are several letter will be issued to the preferred bidder this week, on community organisations, such as J.R. GroundForce in time on 17 July—or will the Government delay that? Blaenymaes and Portmead, which do a brilliant job. During the summer recess, will the Minister visit that Mr. David: The hon. Lady is correct to stress the excellent community project, which works hand in hand importance of that investment to Wales. It will be the with the police in my constituency? largest single investment ever in the Welsh economy. The defence technical college will be of tremendous Mr. David: Yes, I am aware of the excellent work that benefit, not only to the Welsh economy but obviously to is being done in Swansea by the police, my hon. Friend the United Kingdom armed forces. My right hon. Friend and local authorities working together to create a strong the Secretary of State fully recognises the importance of community partnership to ensure safer communities. I that; he has had discussions with the Secretary of State am well aware of the Blaenymaes and Portmead community for Defence and they are going forward together. The endeavours. I would be more than happy to visit her hon. Lady can rest assured that we recognise the importance constituency and perhaps some of those projects in the of the project for Wales. summer recess. European Structural Funds Police (Funding) 6. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What recent 5. Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for distribution of European structural funds in Wales. the Home Department on allocations of funding to [285611] police forces in Wales. [285610] The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): As The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales a result of the Government’s efforts, European structural (Mr. Wayne David): My right hon. Friend the Secretary funds have made a huge contribution throughout Wales, of State and I have regular meetings with Home Office with some £1.54 billion awarded in the last spending Ministers and, as a member of the National Policing round generating more than £3.8 billion in investments. Board and the National Crime Reduction Board, I am involved in discussions on a range of policing issues, Chris Ruane: I thank my right hon. Friend for that including funding. The funding settlement that we have response and for his brave decision in 1998 to include provided for the next three years clearly reflects the Denbighshire and Conwy in the objective 1 bid for Government’s continuing commitment to improving Wales. We were left out and my right hon. Friend policing and further reducing crime. included us. Over the course of objective 1 funding, we hope to draw down £500 million in those two counties alone. Why did the previous Conservative Government Jenny Willott: South Wales police is facing possibly not draw down objective 1 funding, despite the closure the worst financial crisis in any force, due to systematic of Shotton steelworks, and the decline of agriculture underfunding under the police funding formula and the and traditional seaside tourism? [Interruption.] lack of extra funding for capital city policing. It is already closing four police stations in central Cardiff Mr. Speaker: Order. There is a real hubbub of private and now the new head of the Association of Chief conversations on both sides of the House. It is unfair to Police Officers has warned that police officer cuts are the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) and likely. Will the Minister make urgent representations to to the Secretary of State who is about to reply. his Home Office colleagues to ensure that South Wales police finally receives extra funding for policing the Mr. Hain: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has Welsh capital city? said. Indeed, it was his persuasive case on that issue, put together with his colleagues, that allowed us to extend Mr. David: It is important to put the hon. Lady’s the boundary to include his constituency. Yes, he is question in context and recognise that the number of absolutely right: because of their anti-European stance, police officers in Wales has increased by almost 1,000 in our predecessors in government refused to draw down the past few years—a significant improvement. Throughout the enormous funding available for west Wales and the the length and breadth of Wales, including south Wales, valleys, first under objective 1 and now under convergence people will testify to the fact that they want more funding. If they got back into power, that funding proactive local and neighbourhood policing and that it would be at risk again. That is the choice facing the is being delivered. I recognise the hon. Lady’s points people in my hon. Friend’s constituency and right across about the situation in south Wales, but let us also be west Wales and the valleys. clear that her Liberal party colleagues on the local authority in Cardiff have been reluctant to make the Economic Inactivity necessary increase in precept, which would allow proper funding. I am meeting the chief constable of South 7. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): What recent Wales in the near future to discuss her concerns and I discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for am sure that she will mention the need to discuss the Work and Pensions on the level of economic inactivity possibility of designating Cardiff as a capital city. in Wales. [285612] 279 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 280

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): I Mrs. Moon: I thank my hon. Friend for his response. have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the During this year’s armed forces celebrations, veterans’ Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. We will not organisations in Bridgend and Porthcawl held wonderful let short-term job losses turn into long-term unemployment, celebrations. Will he ensure that the Assembly Government nor will we allow communities to be scarred by worklessness help to co-ordinate and promote the various towns and for a generation once again. local communities that will want to hold their own celebrations on that national day next year in Wales? Bob Spink: The Secretary of State is right to mention Mr. David: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a very good long-term unemployment, because Wales was point indeed. It is important to have effective co-ordination disproportionately affected by the loss of traditional in national celebrations, but a lot depends on what industries, which took place as long ago as the ’80s. happens at the local level. One of the things that we Certain regions of Wales are still suffering from that, so have been doing successfully is having negotiations not will he redouble his efforts with the Welsh Assembly to only here in London, but with the Welsh Assembly ensure that further education is funded and that there Government and local authorities. I am sure that, in are no cuts? That is the way forward. preparing for next year’s Armed Forces day, those discussions will continue and bear fruit. Mr. Hain: Yes indeed. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: the period of Conservative Government in the Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): As part of those 1980s and 1990s devastated communities right across celebrations across Wales and beyond, will the Minister Wales, including in my constituency. That is why, this make a specific commitment to endorsing the work of time, compared with the 1980s and 1990s, we are investing the Royal British Legion and, in particular, the huge in people, new jobs and skills, including in further amount of pastoral work that it does in supporting education colleges, to ensure that the recession of this ex-servicemen across the country? We are talking not period is not as devastating as the misery that was just about an act of remembrance, but about an act of caused in the 1980s and 1990s. celebration of work that is ongoing. Mr. David: One of the good things about Armed Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): Forces day, and Veterans day before it, is the close The latest unemployment statistics show that young co-operation with the Royal British Legion. I pay tribute people in Wales are among the hardest hit of any group to the commitment that the Royal British Legion has in this recession. They are bearing the brunt of the displayed, and I am sure that those discussions will downturn. Youth unemployment is going up and the continue to be effective in planning for the future. The pool of those not in education, employment or training hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that Armed Forces is going up. Young people are also being hit as day is not simply a celebration of the tremendous apprenticeships are being cut, as jobs are being lost, so commitment that our armed forces have shown in the could the Secretary of State please tell us today what he past, but a celebration of the dedication that they is doing to help Wales’s young generation in 2009? display today. Mr. Hain: Yes, I am very happy to. First, the Welsh Steel Industry Assembly Government have announced a £20 million package to support new apprenticeships. Secondly, we 9. Dr. Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): What recent established the future jobs fund. Thirdly, we have guaranteed discussions he has had with the First Minister on the help for all young people aged 18 to 24 who have been future of the steel industry in Wales; and if he will claiming jobseeker’s allowance for 12 months. That will make a statement. [285614] provide opportunities for young people, who I agree are facing genuine problems at the present time—a stark The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales contrast with the 1990s and 1980s, when a whole generation (Mr. Wayne David): Wales has a—[Interruption.] of youngsters was thrown on to the scrap heap by the Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, there is far too much hon. Gentleman’s Tory Government. noise from both sides of the Chamber. It does not look or sound very good to the public. Armed Forces Day 2010 Mr. David: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Wales has a long, proud history of steelmaking, and the UK 8. Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): What Government and the Welsh Assembly Government remain recent discussions he has had with ministerial committed to supporting the industry. We fully recognise colleagues and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers that these are difficult times, but my hon. Friend can be on plans for Armed Forces day 2010 in Wales. [285613] assured that this Government stand four-square alongside the industry. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne David): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Dr. Francis: I thank the Minister for his reply. In of State and I were both very proud to have played a order to build on the very good relations that have long part in Armed Forces day 2009. We are extremely existed between the steel unions—led by the largest grateful for the opportunity to pay tribute to the men union, Community—and the employers, Corus, will he and women of our armed forces. I have already had and the Secretary of State consider working with the many discussions with Ministers about the preparations First Minister of the Welsh Assembly Government to for next year’s Armed Forces day, and I am very pleased call a Welsh steel summit to ensure the long-term security that the 2010 national ceremony will be held in Cardiff. and integrity of steelmaking in Wales? 281 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 282

Mr. David: I know that the UK-level steel summit has faith in the democratic process, and in this House in been extremely successful, and I believe that my hon. particular. Will my right hon. Friend commit the Friend has made a good point. Wales would certainly Government to giving their wholehearted support to benefit from having a similar summit, bringing together the important recommendations in the report, and Corus, the union Community, members of local encourage the leaders of all the parties in the House to communities and everyone who has a stake in the future do the same? of the industry. I certainly believe that that would be useful. The Prime Minister: We should thank my hon. Friend, who was vice-chairman of the group that has submitted the interim report today. This is an important opportunity PRIME MINISTER further to increase the number of women and disabled, black, Asian and minority ethnic people in our Parliament. The Prime Minister was asked— The Government are committed to ensuring greater diversity of representation in public and political life— Engagements Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): More northerners! Q1. [286657] Mr. John Maples (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday The Prime Minister: The Conservatives should think 15 July. about this, because they opposed the Second Reading of the Equality Bill in Parliament. The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): Yesterday, the In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have whole country shared in the sorrow of our armed further such meetings later today. forces’ families as they saw their loved ones come home. We support our troops and the reasons for their being Mr. Maples: In 2006, we sent 3,000 troops into in Afghanistan, but is not there a need for an even Afghanistan as part of a reconstruction mission. Now, tighter definition of our mission? We are not trying to our objectives are to defeat terrorism and to make build a perfect democracy; we must focus solely on Afghanistan a stable and effective state. Many of my building security and stability so that the terrorists can constituents are not convinced that we have a credible never return. We have been in Afghanistan for eight strategy for achieving those objectives. Will the Prime years now. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that, Minister look again at those objectives in the context of if we are to maintain public support here and, vitally, in what is achievable, so that I can explain to people in my Afghanistan, we will have to show greater urgency and constituency how we are to judge success? make more visible progress?

The Prime Minister: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman’s The Prime Minister: The whole country joins the constituents that, since 2001, our objective has been to people of Wootton Bassett in the dignified way in which restrain, contain and defeat terrorism by acting in they recognise the service and sacrifice of our armed Afghanistan and working with the Pakistan Government. forces. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people of It was true that, in 2001, al-Qaeda was based in Afghanistan Wootton Bassett who have to endure great tragedies and given cover by the Taliban there. It is also true that and effectively see them happen as they welcome back it is now based mainly in north Pakistan. We have to the people who have died on behalf of our country. I make sure that terrorism cannot hit the streets of Britain, hope—in fact, I know so—that everybody in the House and that is why we cannot allow the Taliban or al-Qaeda- will thank them for what they did yesterday. related activities to flourish in Afghanistan, and why we The purpose of our mission in Afghanistan is very cannot allow the Pakistan Government to be overrun clear: it is to prevent terrorism coming to the streets of by people who are operating through al-Qaeda and the Britain. We are complementing the military action we Pakistan Taliban. What I think is encouraging—and are taking with action to build up the Afghan forces—the why I think that the hon. Gentleman should be able to police and the military forces—and with economic and tell his constituents that things are moving forward—is social development programmes that we are pursuing in that, for the first time, the Pakistan Government are Afghanistan to give people in that country a stake in the taking direct action in a systematic way, with the support future. of the population of Pakistan, against the Taliban and against al-Qaeda in Pakistan. That means that we have As I have said, we must work on two fronts. We must complementary action in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, ensure that we attack terrorism in Pakistan as well as and that is a necessary means of defeating terrorism in defeat what is happening in Afghanistan. I hope that the world. the right hon. Gentleman will understand that we increased the number of forces from 8,100 to 9,000 so that we Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): My right could clear ground and make it safe for the population hon. Friend asked your predecessor, Mr. Speaker, to set of many areas of Afghanistan to vote in the coming up a Speaker’s Conference to report on how we could general election and at the same time to enjoy the increase the numbers of women, people from ethnic schools and the hospitals that are denied to them by the minorities and disabled people being elected to this activities of the Taliban. House. This morning, the conference has published an I want to thank our forces involved in Operation interim report that makes proposals to increase the Panther’s Claw for what they are doing. They have the diversity of candidates standing for all the parties at the support of the whole country, and they have the resources next general election as a step towards restoring people’s and equipment they need. Of course we keep under 283 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 284 review the numbers and the equipment needed for the allied effort in Afghanistan over the next period. We future. I have said that we will look again at this after we have done everything that we can to increase the number have seen the Afghan election pass, peacefully of helicopters and there will be more Merlin helicopters and democratically, we hope. At the same time, I have in the field. talked to President Karzai about Afghanistan’s own I ask the Conservative party to look at the statements responsibilities—that the Afghans should provide army being made by those who speak for our armed forces on and police to Operation Panther’s Claw. President Karzai the ground. They have made absolutely clear that in this has promised that he will provide additional resources particular instance, while the loss of life is tragic and for that purpose, and I believe that that is now starting sad, it is not to do with helicopters. to happen. I have also said to President Karzai that after October—[HON.MEMBERS: “Come on”] I think it Mr. Cameron: We must be frank about the difficulties is important for the House to know this—after October, and dangers in Afghanistan, and one of the difficulties we are prepared to do more work mentoring and training is a shortage of helicopters. the Afghan security services. We will consider that as we Let me take each of the Prime Minister’s arguments make our decisions on what we do after October. in turn. He talks of a 60 per cent. increase in the number of helicopters. That is in comparison with the Mr. Cameron: Of course, the most recent focus on position three years ago, when we had half as many building up the Afghan army and on the co-ordination troops. There has not been a proportional increase in between Afghanistan and Pakistan is right, but I think the number of helicopters. Even the 84 per cent. increase it would help to acknowledge that some of the early in capability relates to helicopter hours. Clearly one objectives were slightly lofty, slightly vague and the helicopter can be in only one place at one time. If we co-ordination was not there. I think we will take people want to move more troops around the battlefield more with us for the future if we actually admit to some of quickly, we will need more helicopters. the things that were got wrong in the past. Let us take the argument about Nick Richardson. Of Let me ask some specific questions about helicopters course I listen with respect to the official spokesman of and Afghanistan. Is not the basic problem this: the the Army, but I think that the Prime Minister should number of helicopters in Afghanistan is simply insufficient? also listen to someone like Stuart Tootal, who commanded Will the Prime Minister confirm that the American 3 Para and who has said, for instance, marines, who have approximately the same number of troops as us in Helmand, are supported by some “In Afghanistan in 2006 repeated demands for more helicopters fell on deaf ears.” 100 helicopters, whereas our troops are supported by fewer than 30? That is the case, isn’t it? He should also listen to Lord Guthrie—[Interruption.] I do not know why Labour Members do not want to The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is listen to what was said by the former Chief of the right to raise issues about the equipment so that I can Defence Staff. He said this: assure him that we are doing everything that we can. “of course they need more helicopters. If there had been more, it is… likely that fewer soldiers would have been killed by roadside [HON.MEMBERS: “Answer.”] I must point out that Lieutenant-Colonel Nick Richardson, who is on the bombs”. ground in Afghanistan, has said: Those are important points, and we should listen to “There’s much speculation about helicopters and have we got them. enough. It’s a sad fact that helicopters would not have saved the Let me ask the Prime Minister this. Is not the reason lives of the individuals last week.” we do not have enough helicopters that we did not plan The commander on the ground, he said, to have enough? When the Prime Minister looks back “has sufficient to get on with the task with which he’s been given.” to 2004 and his decision to reduce the helicopter budget by £1.4 billion, does he remember that the National And why? Because we have increased the number of Audit Office said in that year: helicopters by 60 per cent. over the last two years and “There is a considerable deficit in the availability of helicopter we have increased the capability of helicopters by 84 per lift”? cent. I visited RAF Benson on Monday to see the Merlin helicopters that will be deployed in the field by Does he now recognise that that decision was a bad the end of the year, and the training is being done mistake? immediately in America—[Interruption.] Look, as they move from Iraq to Afghanistan—I need to explain The Prime Minister: First, the number of troops in this—those helicopters are dealing with different terrain. Afghanistan has risen from just over 7,000 to 9,000 over They have to re-equipped for the functions in Afghanistan, the last two years. The number of helicopters has risen where they have to deal with heights and problems by 60 per cent. That is a higher percentage rise. Secondly, connected with temperatures and the weather. The I have talked to Tim Radford—[Interruption.] That is helicopters are being refitted for that purpose. The crew an increase from 7,000 to 9,000, and a 60 per cent. have to be trained in different environments to be ready increase in the number of helicopters. for Afghanistan. Secondly, I have talked—[Interruption.] I do hope Over the next 10 years, our helicopter budget will be that we can conduct this debate properly, because our £6 billion, spent to improve our helicopters in the troops will be paying attention to it as well. future. We are working with NATO, which is providing I have talked to Tim Radford, the brigadier on the through contracts, helicopters for the transit of equipment, ground, and he has assured me that his troops have the and at the same time, we have created a helicopter fund, equipment that they need. What we want on the ground which was our initiative, and others among our allies are additional Afghanistan national forces, and that is are now contributing, I believe, 11 helicopters to the what I have been talking about to President Karzai. 285 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 286

As for the defence spending programme, we have It is important to recognise that, yes, our military experienced the longest sustainable increase in defence commanders will always want more equipment—and spending in any period over 20 years. The reason is that, rightly so—but Sir Jock Stirrup, the chief of the defence in addition to the defence budget, £14 billion has been forces, has said that our armed forces are better equipped spent on Iraq and Afghanistan, and £4 billion of that than ever before. I am not complacent—we will always has been spent on urgent operational requirements for be vigilant—but I do not believe this should be a subject the troops. Part of the spending is on helicopters, and of cross-party disagreement. I believe that we are making we have now committed £6 billion over the next 10 years the provision that is necessary both for helicopters and to helicopter spending. We have already announced for equipment on the ground. that more Merlins will arrive in the field later this year, and the helicopter fund is producing helicopters from Mr. Cameron: There is one way to help settle this allies as well. We have an order for more helicopters for important debate. The Ministry of Defence asked Bernard the future. So the helicopter equipment programme Gray to conduct a review of our helicopter procurement. continues, and we work with our allies to deliver the That report is meant to be out in July, but there are best services on the ground. rumours that it is being delayed and rewritten. Can the I think that we should look at this particular operation, Prime Minister make it clear that this report will be Operation Panther’s Claw, and be absolutely clear that published in full, and unredacted, before the summer? it is not an absence of helicopters that has cost the loss of lives. We are dealing with improvised explosive devices The Prime Minister: We said last week that we are on the ground, bombs that are against—[Interruption.] doing work related to a new defence review. We are Since April, we have brought in more engineers to deal looking first of all at the strategic aspects of that review, with that problem. Moreover, Operation Panther’s Claw and then in the next Parliament there will be a full is making progress—despite the implication of some of defence review. I think that is the right way to proceed, these comments—and is gaining ground. That too is an and I believe that Bernard Gray’s report will be a important aspect of this operation. I hope that we can significant part of the review, but we will start the have a cross-party consensus on what we are doing to review with the publication of what we believe are the help our armed forces. strategic tasks ahead. Mr. Cameron rose— Mr. Cameron: That was absolutely no answer to the question about this important review. What the public Mr. Speaker: Order. Before the Leader of the Opposition want to know is that the Government have a relentless asks another question, let me say that I am very conscious commitment to getting this right, but I have to say that today that we are hearing long questions and long they look at the fact that we are on our fourth Defence answers from the Front Benches. I want Back Benchers Secretary in four years, that defence procurement is to get in on this session, and I appeal to the Front shared by two unpaid and basically part-time Ministers, Benchers to take account of that. and that the Secretary of State ranks 21st out of 23 in the Cabinet. Are not the public right to ask, is the Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister is right that our commitment and relentless activity really there? armed forces and their families are watching this debate, but on this issue they expect responsible questions to The Prime Minister: I hoped that this debate could hold the Government to account and proper answers have escaped party politics and partisan points. I believe from the Government. The Prime Minister mentions that at this particular time we have a duty to our armed the international helicopter fund. Will he accept that so forces. I think it is right that I explain to the House what far—it was announced 16 months ago—it has not yet equipment is available, what we are doing on helicopters, added one single helicopter? The public will find it hard what we are doing on other equipment and what we are to understand why as a country we have 500 helicopters, doing on the numbers of our armed forces. These are all yet fewer than 30 of them are in Afghanistan. Let me legitimate questions and they should be answered by take one group specifically: why is it that only one of the the Government, but I hope that the all-party agreement eight Chinooks that were delivered in 2001 at great cost on what we do in Afghanistan and what we have to do is now ready? Why has there not been greater urgency to to defeat terrorism will remain in being, and I hope we deliver? That is a legitimate question, and it requires a will recognise that in this particular exercise, Operation proper answer. Panther’s Claw, we are doing everything we can, and will continue to, to support our brave and courageous The Prime Minister: The Chinooks are in the process armed forces, who are both professional and determined, of being adapted for Afghanistan. On the allies’ and who need, and will have, all our support. contribution, three helicopters have either arrived or are about to arrive, 11 in total have been promised, and Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): Will my £30 million has been put into the helicopter fund by us right hon. Friend reflect on the Ministry of Defence and others. May I just explain to the right hon. Gentleman decision to appeal against the judgment that would that helicopters have got to be adapted for the terrain in allow hearings of cases of nuclear test veterans seeking Afghanistan because they need to deal with excess heat compensation against the military for injury that they and with height? Our helicopter crews have got to be or their relatives may have suffered as a consequence of trained for that particular operation in Afghanistan, their exposure to nuclear explosion? and the reason that we have greater capability now is that we not only have more helicopters in the field, but The Prime Minister: I will of course look at this, but more flying hours are being done by helicopter pilots as my hon. Friend knows, these are legal matters that and more staff are available, and we have readapted have ended up in the courts and we must look very some of the helicopters to be able to make those flights. carefully at what we do. 287 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 288

Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): After no suggestion that her well-being was under threat at everything that has happened over the last few months, home. East Sussex has a very good reputation for its people are crying out for change, yet we have the children’s services, but does he share my concern that spectacle of a Prime Minister busy doing nothing. He too often these cases go through the courts in a manner pretends to control bankers’ bonuses; they rise. He that can do lasting damage to the child and that pretends to want to have a serious discussion on the parents cannot ever hope to match the resources being economic mess we are in, yet he fiddles the figures. He allocated by the local authorities? Will he have a pretends to want to reform this place and to clean up meeting with me and others, so that we can discuss this politics, yet nothing has really happened. People want in order to ensure that the children’s interests will be action. They want something different, so what has paramount and that parents can be assured of a fair been stopping him? hearing?

The Prime Minister: What the country wants us to do The Prime Minister: It is of course, as the hon. is take us through this difficult world recession, and that Gentleman will recognise, very difficult for me to enter is what we are doing. The Opposition parties have no into a discussion of an individual case, but if it is policies for jobs, no policies to tackle the recession, no essential, either I or a Minister will meet him to discuss policies for a recovery, no policies to help home owners this. Local authorities are unable to place a child for and no policies to help small businesses. We have the adoption with prospective adopters without their parents’ policies and we are taking people through this difficult consent unless they have a placement order issued by time. the court. The debate that the hon. Gentleman has about what is happening in his constituency centres on Mr. Clegg: Who does the Prime Minister think he is that issue. I should tell him that we have tried to kidding? We have seen huge executive pay packages in streamline the family courts to make them far more the banks that we own, city bonuses back in fashion, responsive to the needs of all concerned, particularly still no action taken to split up the big banks, no action the children. on electoral reform and no action on party funding, and he has recently blocked giving people the right to Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab): My right hon. sack disgraced MPs. Is this not just business as usual: a Friend will remember the strong support that we had deliberate betrayal of people’s demand for change? from church organisations in this country on the Make Poverty History campaign, with which he was very The Prime Minister: We are bringing in the Political much involved. Church leaders in my constituency are Parties and Elections Bill, the Constitutional Reform involved in the Get Fair campaign, which seeks to Bill and the Bill to reform the House of Commons. The tackle child poverty in this country. Will he give the right hon. Gentleman and the Leader of the Opposition same commitment to that campaign as he did to the should go away for the summer and think why it is that Make Poverty History campaign, so that I can respond the Opposition parties have no policies to deal with the to my constituents? recession, no policies for recovery, no policies to help us create jobs and no policies for the future of this country. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend was a leader in Perhaps, having gone back to the drawing board, they the Make Poverty History campaign in Wales, and I will think again. congratulate her on that. The campaign to abolish child poverty is so important that we are going to bring Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): forward a Bill that commits the Government to abolish Comrade leader, in these difficult and troubled times, child poverty. It is very important to recognise that do you agree that what the country needs more than 1.5 million children have been taken out of absolute anything else is a third aircraft carrier? [Interruption.] I poverty under this Government and 800,000 children repeat, in case that was not heard, that we need a third have been taken out of relative poverty. We are raising aircraft carrier. Does my right hon. Friend also agree child benefit and child tax credits, and we are creating that it is necessary for the Royal Navy, for the shipyards Sure Start centres in this country that the Conservative and for a big chunk of British industry that we have party refuses to support. these aircraft carriers? Can he tell me why only the Government are firmly committed to building the two Q3. [286659] Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) aircraft carriers and why neither of the two Opposition (Con): Across the east of England and in Bedfordshire, parties are so committed? the Government’s policy of moving the assessment of the need for more Gypsy and Traveller sites away from The Prime Minister: We are committed to building local councils to a regional body is causing intense aircraft carriers; that gives work to people in all parts of concern and threatening to disrupt community relations, the country, including those in my hon. Friend’s making them worse rather than better. Will the Prime constituency. We believe that aircraft carriers are an Minister order an urgent review of a planning policy important part of our naval equipment for the future, that is increasingly seen as no longer even-handed? and the programme will proceed, whatever the views of Opposition parties. The Prime Minister: I believe that local authorities have fair powers to deal with the issue. I accept what the Q2. [286658] Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): I think hon. Gentleman says—there has to be a solution found that the Prime Minister will be aware of the case of a in each region for what is happening. I shall look at young girl in my constituency who was taken into care what he says, but we have to ensure that we balance the two years ago, at the age of five, and is now being needs of local residents with the other responsibilities proposed for permanent adoption, even though there is that we have as a country. 289 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 290

Q4. [286660] Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): At have made that possible, Mr. Speaker. The Youth 2 o’clock, a hanging plant basket will be handed in to Citizenship Commission has reported in the last few No. 10 for my right hon. Friend by Perfect Pots, a weeks and it looked at the issue of voting at 16. I think social enterprise run by pupils at the Holbrook centre that people want to combine any change in the voting for autism, with the charity HOPE and local business age with citizenship education working even more effectively Amberol, an example that shows how people with in our schools, and we remain ready to push forward severe autism and learning disabilities can be assisted that debate, which has been started by the YouthCitizenship to make a positive contribution to the work force and Commission, and get the opinions of young people, as their local community, rather than just being cared for. well as adults. Will he ensure that that is taken on board in the current consultation on support for adults with autism and the Q6. [286662] Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) proposed national care service? (DUP): In recent days, we have paid tribute to our servicemen and women in Afghanistan, and my right The Prime Minister: The Autism Bill that is currently hon. Friend indicated that earlier. Previously we did before Parliament, and which the Government are that in Iraq and, for 30 years before that, in Northern supporting, sets out our commitment to publishing an Ireland. Surely now would be an appropriate time to annual strategy on autism, as well as statutory guidance consider some form of permanent recognition for these for local authorities and the national health service. I courageous service personnel, who deserve the have met members of the different charities that are enduring gratitude of the entire nation. working to deal with autism, which is a major problem that has gone long unrecognised. We know that more has to be done, and the Autism Bill is one way of doing The Prime Minister: I shall look at what the hon. that. More widely, we want to ensure that people receive Gentleman says, but I think that he knows that there the level of care necessary, and that is why yesterday we was an announcement in one respect by Her Majesty published our Green Paper on social care. That, too, the Queen only two weeks ago. I shall look specifically will make a difference to those who have autism. at his recommendation.

Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, I am sure that the Prime Minister is right that it takes East) (Lab): My right hon. Friend will be aware that time to equip helicopters and to train the crews for this morning Jaguar Land Rover announced that it was Afghanistan, but why does he pretend that the need has phasing out the X-type model and that 300 jobs would only arisen today? The reality is that we have been there be lost at the Halewood plant. Obviously, my right hon. for eight years, troop numbers have been rising throughout Friend will agree that that is a severe blow to the that time, and the demand for an increase in the number Liverpool city region. Will he give me an assurance that of helicopters has gone on rising. Why are they still the Government will do everything that they can to being equipped and why are crews still being trained secure the long-term future of Jaguar Land Rover at when the demand is there? Will he explain to the House Halewood? and to our troops—

Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman’s The Prime Minister: Any redundancies and any loss question is simply too long. of jobs are to be regretted. I believe that we will be able to help those people who are losing their jobs back into The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman’s question work. We also want to secure a future for Halewood. would have some validity if there had not been a 60 per We have offered JLR a grant of £27 million towards the cent. increase in helicopter numbers in the last two development of low-carbon Land Rovers at the plant. years, if we had not increased the operational capability They would be produced there. We are trying to do of helicopters and if we were not putting more helicopters what we can to replace lost jobs and I will work with my in the field as soon as we can. I have to insist that the right hon. Friend, because I know that he does a great terrain in Afghanistan is different from that in Iraq, and deal in this area, and with others in the region to make that is why we have to re-equip the helicopters with new sure that jobs come to Halewood. blades, as well as retraining our servicemen to deal with those problems. I hope that the Conservative party will Armed Forces come to accept that we are doing everything that we can to equip our armed forces and that what the Chief of the Defence Staff has said is right—despite all the Q7. [286663] Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): difficulties, our armed forces are better equipped than Whether insuring against the threat of state-versus- ever before. state warfare remains a core role of the armed forces; and if he will make a statement. Q5. [286661] Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): Last year, I was pleased to table a private Member’s Bill to The Prime Minister: Our armed forces are fundamental lower the voting age. Now that the Youth Citizenship to counter state-led threats. That was made clear in our Commission has reported, what plans does my right national security strategy update, which we published hon. Friend have to show a vote of confidence in young last month. people and lower the voting age to 16?

The Prime Minister: One of the things that is happening Dr. Lewis: I am relieved to hear that. Before Iraq and over the summer is that the Youth Parliament will sit in Afghanistan, we were spending 2.5 per cent. of gross this Chamber while we are away—I believe that you domestic product insuring against potential threats from 291 Oral Answers15 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 292 other industrial countries. As we are still spending in addition to the defence budget we have put aside 2.5 per cent., despite the additional cost of the counter- £14 billion for the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. I insurgency campaign and including the contribution of want to tell the hon. Gentleman that our budget, in the Treasury reserve, which of those two major military cash terms, is still the second largest in the world. roles is currently underfunded? One of them must be. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): On a The Prime Minister: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman point of order, Mr. Speaker— that defence spending has continued to rise in real terms, in contrast to what happened in the last years of Mr. Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that, the Conservative Government. I have to say, also, that as he will know, points of order come after statements. 293 15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 294

UK Low Carbon Transition Plan kept to 2010 levels for the whole of the following decade, so that with more low-carbon, home-grown energy, we avoid an ever-increasing dependence on imports. 12.32 pm I have listened to representations on renewable energy The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and have concluded that, for reasons of energy security (Edward Miliband): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I and climate change, it is right to go ahead with plans for should like to make a statement about the UK low 15 per cent. domestic renewable energy by 2020. In the carbon transition plan, which we are publishing today. final decisions in the Government’s renewable energy All of us in this House know the gravity of the strategy, published today, we show how we can secure challenge that climate change poses. We know that to about 30 per cent. of our electricity from wind, marine rise to the challenge will mean comprehensive changes and other renewable sources. We are also publishing the in our economy and our society. We are one of the few shortlist of Severn tidal schemes. countries in the world to exceed our Kyoto targets, we I believe it is right that we shall also go ahead with are now the leader for offshore wind generation and we our plans for new nuclear power stations. We will publish are the first country in the world to legislate for carbon our national policy statements on nuclear and other budgets, but the proposals published today represent energy issues in the autumn, and the industry is planning the first time that we have a set out a comprehensive at least 12.4 GW of new stations—more than current plan for carbon across every sector—energy, homes, capacity. Alongside the most environmentally stringent transport, agriculture and business. coal conditions in the world, the Government have A decade ago, the carbon impact of most policies proposed up to four carbon capture and storage projects, was not even measured. Last year this House passed and we have proposed legislation for the next Session of legislation for legally binding carbon budgets—measurable Parliament to make that happen. caps on our carbon emissions. That was a dramatic Let me be clear: I believe that for the future of energy change in approach, but we need to go further because in Britain, clean coal has an essential role to play. As the every part of Government needs to be responsible for plan sets out, renewables, nuclear and clean fossil fuels meeting those budgets. So I can announce that from are the trinity of low carbon and the future of energy in today not just the country as a whole, and not just the Britain. It would be fatal to pick and choose between biggest Departments, but every Department has its own them; all of them should be part of our future energy carbon budget. Having been the first country in the mix. In total, our plans show that we will get 40 per world to set legally binding carbon budgets, we are now cent. of our electricity from low-carbon energy by 2020 the first country in the world to assign every Department and more in the years that follow. a carbon budget alongside its financial budget. To deliver the changes in our energy supplies between The plan sets out how we will meet the carbon now and 2020, we must make it easier for investors to budgets set out by the Chancellor for an 18 per cent. turn low-carbon projects into reality. Having tackled reduction on today’s levels by 2020, or a 34 per cent. the planning rules, I believe we now need to do more to reduction compared with 1990. Let me announce to the deal with the issue of grid connection, so I am today House how we will make the 459 million tonnes of announcing that I will exercise the reserve powers provided carbon savings. In agriculture and waste, there will be a under the Energy Act 2008 for Government, rather 6 per cent. cut in emissions—20 million tonnes—by than the regulator, to set the grid access regime. The 2020, made possible by new policies on waste and new new rules should be in place within 12 months, so that commitments on farming. instead of waiting for more than a decade for grid In the transport sector there will be savings of 14 per connection, as can happen now, we can get the fast cent., or 85 million tonnes, by 2020, as is set out in the access to the grid that renewable projects need. sustainable transport strategy published today by my We also know that as we generate power in a cleaner right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for way, we also need to use energy in a smarter way in our Transport. This includes plans for electrification of rail, homes. In the plan we show how, in total, cleaner tougher car and van emission standards, and the new sources of heat and better use of energy can cut emissions £30 million fund to get low-carbon buses on the roads from our homes by one quarter compared with today. in the next two years. We are also doing more to bring We must also transform the information on energy use about the transition to electric cars, with new funding available to all of us, so as well as putting in place new making possible a recharging infrastructure in up to six funding today for smart grids, we propose to roll out cities. smart meters to 26 million homes by 2020. Across business and the workplace, we show how we We need new incentives as well as better information. can make 41 million tonnes of savings, or 13 per cent. The plan makes it clear that in energy efficiency, we on today’s emissions, including through the carbon need a house-by-house, street-by-street transformation, reduction commitment to be introduced next year. like the transition from town gas to North sea gas in the The most important reductions to meet our carbon 1970s. Over the next decade, our plan sees families not budgets will be in how we generate and use energy. In having to pay up front, but being able to spread the the power and heavy industry sector, we show how costs over many years, paid for out of the savings on emissions will be reduced by 22 per cent., or 248 million their energy bills. Today we take the first steps with the tonnes. With North sea gas production declining, if we first pilots of the new pay-as-you-save scheme. carried on with business as usual, over the next decade As well as information for individuals and the right our imports of gas would double. On the basis of the incentives, we know from the transition towns movement low carbon choices I announced today, our forecast is about the power of community action to motivate that rather than our gas imports doubling, they will be people, so we will provide £500,000 each to 15 areas of 295 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 296 the country for people to come together to trial the resource, so I am making available up to £120 million to newest technologies and be beacons for how other support the growth of a world-leading offshore wind communities can cut their carbon emissions. In addition, industry in Britain. As well as supporting the demonstration I can confirm that from next April, individuals and and testing of offshore wind, the money will be used to communities alike will be able for the first time to attract offshore wind manufacturers to the UK. We generate their own renewable power and sell it back to estimate that those investments will help to nurture the grid, with guaranteed feed-in tariffs. The details of industries that can support hundreds of thousands of the rates and levels on which we are consulting are set jobs in our country. We can make that investment today out today. only because, even in the tough times, we made the We need reforms not only in how we produce energy choice to invest in the economy of the future. and how we use it, but in how it is regulated. In the Climate change is the moral issue of our time. In five energy world of today, unlike that of 20 years ago, the months’time, the world must come together at Copenhagen job of the regulator is to help to deliver on our climate and follow through on last week’s commitment by world change commitments, because failure to act now will leaders to stop dangerous climate change. Today we store up greater costs later. I therefore propose to change show how Britain will play its part. Our transition plan Ofgem’s principal objective so that for the first time, is a route map to 2020. It strengthens our energy reducing carbon emissions, as part of protecting the security, it seeks to ensure that the decisions we make future consumer, will be explicitly set out as part of its are fair, and above all, it rises to the moral challenge of guiding mission. Competition is essential, but we know climate change. This is a transition plan for Britain, and from the experience of prepayment meters that it has I commend it to the House. not delivered for all consumers, so I will also make it clearer in Ofgem’s principal objective that when competition Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): I begin by thanking does not deliver, it is its duty proactively to stand up for the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. consumers throughout this country. After the briefings in the weekend press, which were With greater expectations of the regulator should even further in advance, he has been generous in informing come greater powers, so I also propose to legislate to us all about the content of today’s policy announcements. provide Ofgem with tough new powers to take action Like the Secretary of State, I read all the best bits where it believes that there is anti-competitive practice months ago in the Conservative Green Paper “The Low in the generation of electricity. Strong regulation is all Carbon Economy”, which, I am reliably informed, has the more important given the upward pressures on lingered on his desk. That being the case, of course I prices in the coming years. Making the energy transition welcome his remarks. This area of policy is crucial for will have costs, but for households those costs are Britain. Its consequences will affect our lives and those significantly offset by savings resulting from energy of future generations. Investments worth billions of efficiency and reduced energy demand. Today’s plan pounds need to be made in a very short period. There is will not increase average household energy bills by plenty of risk in that—risks inherent in the capital 2015, compared with now. For households in 2020, the markets, in future energy prices, and in the technologies. plans today will mean, on average, 6 per cent. on However, for too long, public policy in this country has domestic bills—£75 a year—compared with today. If been a source of additional risk for investors. I am we include all previous policy announcements on climate determined that instead of amplifying uncertainty, our change, the figure is 8 per cent. policy, with its clarity, rigour and consistency, should be a haven from it. That means that on this issue we should Given the costs of transition and the priority of not pursue narrow short-term partisanship; instead, the tackling fuel poverty, we need to do more to protect the long-term interests of the country must come first. most vulnerable consumers, so I propose to reform the system of social tariffs, as has long been urged. More If we are to have a fresh start, will the Secretary of than 800,000 households now receive discounts and State be candid in accepting that we start from a poor other help with their energy bills. That is part of a position? In 12 years there have been 15 Energy Ministers, voluntary agreement with the energy companies. I propose but no energy policy. Does he recognise that while other that when the voluntary agreement ends in 2011, discounts countries have spent the past decade diversifying their for the most vulnerable will continue not through a supplies of energy, Britain has become even more dependent voluntary arrangement but through legislation for on imported fossil fuels? He talks about preventing that compulsory support from the energy companies. We from happening in future, but I have news for him: it will legislate to increase the amount spent, and we has already happened, and is threatening our energy intend to target new resources at the most vulnerable security, economic competitiveness and climate change consumers, particularly older, poorer pensioners. We objectives. must make the transition to low carbon on the basis of Britain has some of the best natural resources in the energy security and fairness, and we must also seize the world, so will the Minister explain why no other European industrial opportunities, using the money that the country, apart from Malta and Luxembourg, generates Chancellor allocated in the Budget. We have set out less energy from renewables than we do? Does he accept plans for carbon capture and storage and, today, for that we have the least efficient homes of any major new investment in nuclear manufacturing. European country, and that one consequence of that is As for renewables, Britain has half the usable tidal soaring fuel poverty? Social tariffs are of course important, energy in Europe. Today I am committing up to £60 million but we must recognise that they are a sticking plaster to build our wave and tidal industries so that we can test rather than a cure for the problem. new technologies and expand port access and deployment Does the Secretary of State recognise that he is in key parts of the country. We also need to nurture the presenting Britain’s consumers with the bill for this offshore wind industry, in which we have a unique decade of dereliction of duty? Everyone one knows that 297 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 298

[Greg Clark] that he has not had much time to absorb them. However, I should be happy to answer any questions on the doing things in a last-minute rush means that one substance of the proposals, when he has some. always pays more than if one had planned and acted The hon. Gentleman mentioned the roll-out of smart ahead of time. meters, and I can tell the House that 48 million meters While we welcome the intention of the proposals, we will be rolled out in the next decade. It is easy for an will judge them against the rigour, ambition and urgency Opposition to say, “Let’s do it more quickly,” and that of the proposals in our paper on the low-carbon economy. would be fine if there were ways to do that. However, we Will the Secretary of State therefore confirm that the believe that 5 million meters are quite a lot to install in home energy efficiency scheme will be available to every one year, and we are open to any quicker way of household in the country, not just to a few pilot areas? proceeding. With the roll-our of smart meters already under way in The hon. Gentleman asked about offsets. The America and elsewhere, why will he not set an earlier Government have taken an ambitious approach to offsets, target than 2020? Does he accept that, by any logic, the as did the Chancellor in the Budget. We have said that required carbon capture from a power plant must be we will achieve the 34 per cent. reduction through proportional to its size, and that that could best be domestic action, and exclusive of the EU emissions achieved by an emissions performance standard? trading scheme. That remains the case. As he will know, Will the right hon. Gentleman scotch the rumour because his deputies will have taken part in the debate that he plans for just 2 per cent. of Britain’s energy to be on this, we have set the credit limit for the first budget generated under the feed-in tariffs by 2020? Above all, is period at zero. In fact, in our plans we over-achieve on he committed to the radical change required by the our carbon budgets, but I hope that he is not falling for 2050 target, or will he dilute the low-carbon economy the idea that any offsetting abroad is automatically a with imported offsets that would rob Britain of moral bad thing— and industrial leadership, and developing countries of the easy wins that they need to achieve their own Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Ah! targets? Last week, the Secretary of State’s brother, the Foreign Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman may say, “Ah,” Secretary, said: but the truth is that for Copenhagen we face a massive “We have to be honest…change has been incremental and financing challenge, and developing countries are saying continuity has been strong…our low carbon revolution is still to to us, “We need the finance to be able to make the come.” transition to low carbon.” If we are to make that The Secretary of State stands in a position of great transition to low carbon, we need all the means at our moment. He must decide whether he will break with the disposal, and that means private and public finance. We past and implement rigorously the measures that both have in place domestic action to meet our 34 per cent. he and I know need to be taken, or whether the next six target, but we will not say that we will never engage in months, like the last 12 years, will prove to have been a buying credits from abroad, because that is the right time of opportunity lost. policy. We have set out the rates for consultation on feed-in Edward Miliband: Let me start by saying that I welcome tariffs. We have listened to what people have to say, and the hon. Gentleman’s opening remark that we should we think that we have set a realistic estimate of what conduct the debate in as bipartisan a way as possible. I tariffs can achieve—but if they can achieve more, that is therefore regret the tone of his subsequent remarks, and a good thing. Let me just end—[Interruption.] Let me I advise him that it does not make much sense for him to just end—[Interruption.] come to the House and say that he wants bipartisanship and then engage in attacks that are pretty much without Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the substance. Secretary of State, but I fear that the shadow Secretary I shall deal first with a point that the hon. Gentleman of State and the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles made that I consider to be very important for people Hendry) were probably not present in the Chamber watching in the country. He would have us believe that during Wales Office questions, in which I indicated that the reason why we will pay a higher price for the switch this habit of wittering away from a sedentary position to renewable energy is something to do with what has on the Opposition Front Bench must stop. happened in the past few years. He knows that that is not the case, and that the transition will have costs. I Edward Miliband: Let me finish by saying this to the advise him in all seriousness that as we conduct this hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark): we are debate, we need to level with people about that. I have debating serious issues and we need as much consensus been very open about saying to people, “Look, there are as possible. I regret the tone of his remarks, and the fact costs to the transition.” We will never persuade people that he does not have anything of substance to ask to make the transition if we say that the costs are a about our proposals today. I look forward to debating result of Government inaction in the past: they are not, them in the coming months. and the hon. Gentleman knows that, just as he knows that there are costs to the transition. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on his (LD): I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, remarks later, but let me turn now to the other points and I congratulate him on his personal commitment to that he made. I did not hear him ask any real questions ensuring that we move to being a low-energy country. I about the substance of my proposals, although I appreciate welcome the announcement of carbon budgets throughout 299 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 300 the sector as well as for the Government as a whole, and Mr. Speaker: Order. May I say to the hon. Gentleman I thank the right hon. Gentleman for announcing that that if there are two last things, they need to be two very the regulator will be given new requirements. brief last things, because he is already over time?

Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Simon Hughes: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful. You’re supposed to be asking a question. Are we committed to decarbonising the power sector fully by 2030? And, what will the Government do to Simon Hughes: I am going to ask the Secretary of help the biofuels industry? Many small businesses have State questions, not because I want to be confrontational supported it but now believe that it is being regulated but because his policy is lacking in certain areas. Will he out of existence. For example, it has produced fuel from confirm that the Government will wish to be judged at used chip fat and wants to contribute to a new renewables the next election not on words but on delivery? Will he industry, but it has been told that it cannot do that in therefore explain why, on the day that we have heard the future. that the only company producing turbines in this country is going to close, the Government have done nothing Edward Miliband: The Liberal spokesman asks serious specific to support the growth of UK-based industry in questions that deserve answers. Let me try to answer the sector? What is his estimate of the amount of new them as best as I can. technology that will be produced in this country, as We had discussions with Vestas, but I want to make it opposed to abroad, by the end either of next year or of clear that it never wanted grants or money to persuade the next five years? it to stay in this country. The option was obviously Given that we are at the bottom of the European considered with the company, but there were two factors league table on renewables, with a contribution of 2 per in its decision. The first aspect is that it was making cent. compared with more than 30 per cent. in Sweden turbines for America, where it had a factory. The second and almost 10 per cent. in Germany, is not the reality aspect is related to the hon. Gentleman’s point about that, although the Chancellor announced incentives for renewables, and is a big issue for everyone in the House. the renewables sector in the Budget, he has subsequently It is about planning—not so much the planning rules, failed, because the renewables industry has been waiting because we are changing them, although unfortunately three months for the promised meeting to discuss how the Opposition want to reverse that change, but the the European Investment Bank money can be accessed, question of whether one can get onshore wind turbines and no meeting has taken place? Why have all the built. Vestas’ speciality is onshore wind, and that requires English regions bar one failed to reach their renewables political persuasion—a hard job for all parts of the target? What will change that situation over the next House. The job is to persuade people that although year, and the next five years? Will individual communities, onshore wind turbines may be unsightly to some, the including counties such as Cornwall and countries such bigger threat to the countryside is not wind turbines but as Wales, be able to get on with their own policies to climate change. Of course there are areas where wind deliver the green peninsula, in Cornwall, and the green turbines would be inappropriate, and we have proposals country, in Wales, without the Government telling them today in our renewable energy strategy about how we what to do? can work with local people to site the turbines more On fuel poverty, given the criticisms by the Secretary sensitively, but they have to go somewhere, and we all of State’s own advisory body and the fact that the need to focus on that necessity. number of people in fuel poverty has gone up from 1 We are proceeding with the investments via the European million to 4 million, will he give a categorical promise Investment Bank, the money will be going out of the that none of the policies that he has announced will door soon—in the autumn, I think—and we are going adversely affect those on low incomes—not just the as fast as we can. If there is an issue about meetings 800,000 whom he mentioned in his statement, but the with representatives, I am happy to address it. millions of people on low incomes—and that they will On fuel poverty, the hon. Gentleman is right to say not be forced to pay the bills for the policy that he has that we face a massive challenge. It will be an even announced? Will the bills fall on the private sector, with bigger challenge in the future. I am happy to work its big profits, and on those of us who can afford to pay, together on the issue, but we need to find all the ways to so that in the end we have a fairer Britain, not just a tackle fuel poverty that we can. Reforming social tariffs greener Britain? is a good start, but if there are other ways we should The Secretary of State knows that my party does not definitely use them, because given the upward pressures share the Labour-Tory love-in with the nuclear industry. on prices, fuel poverty will be a big challenge over the Is it not true that no new UK nuclear power station has next decade—and, frankly, beyond that. ever been built on time or to budget? Is it not also true The hon. Gentleman and I disagree about nuclear that the more that he and his friends cosy up to the energy. I am not engaged in a love-in with the nuclear nuclear industry, the more likely it is that the renewables industry, but I do think that nuclear energy has an industry will not get the support and technological important role to play. On grid access, I said that the investment that it needs? new plans would be in place within a year, and that that On the grid, I welcome what the Secretary of State is how we will speed up the connections, because I did has said as far as it goes, but how soon will there be not want the stand-off between the industry and Ofgem flexible access, which has been denied for years, so that to continue. people can start to contribute as they have been waiting The super-grid is an interesting idea, but it is expensive. to do? Are we as a country now committed to the None the less, we are happy to explore it, and we are European super-grid? If so, what are we going to do doing so. I would be happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman about it? separately about some of the other questions that he Two last things, if I may. First, are we going to— raised. 301 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 302

Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): I very the necessary skills, training and work force equipment much welcome the statement, because I think—or at so that the new low-carbon economy that his moves least, I hope, because I have not read the White Paper presage can be developed effectively, using the skills of yet—that it represents a big break from the energy UK workers and technicians? policy of every Government since the time of Gladstone, which has been “Dig it up and burn it.” Latterly, of Edward Miliband: Yes; my hon. Friend raises an course, that has included uranium. I hope that we are important point. We need to make sure that there are going to shift away from that territory, but I would people in Britain trained to take advantage of all these welcome a statement by my right hon. Friend about plans. We will endeavour to do so. how we will convince the likes of BP, Centrica, Shell and the owners of Scottish Power to reinvest in renewables, Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I am because during the recession they seem to have backed off. sure that the Secretary of State will accept that some of us have been pressing a whole range of these things on Edward Miliband: I think that it would be over the him and his predecessors for a long time. Now I press top for me to claim that this is an historic moment him again on a specific point. Will he agree that every comparable to those associated with Gladstone; I shall Department of State will now never rent or buy offices settle for a lower level of ambition than that. My hon. that use hydrofluorocarbons in their air conditioning? Friend raises an important issue, however, about what Will he accept the Dutch understanding, which is that those energy companies have been doing. The Chancellor’s that is one of the major impacts on global warming? decision in the Budget to look into support for offshore Finally, will he stop the British Government being one wind was important, but we then come back to issues of the dirty Governments who have not voted against such as sorting out planning and grid access. People HFCs and in favour of their being banned in the near need to be convinced not just that there is a theoretical future? financial investment worth making in the UK, but that it will be made on time, that it will start, and that it will Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has not be obstructed by planning rules. That is why it is asked three questions, but I feel sure that we will have regrettable that there is not all-party support for our one answer. planning reforms. Edward Miliband: I shall quickly pay tribute to the Several hon. Members rose— right hon. Gentleman for all his work on a whole range of issues, including this one. I shall take up the matter Mr. Speaker: Order. Thirty-two Members are seeking that he has mentioned with my noble Friend Lord to catch my eye; as always, I want to call as many as Hunt, who has direct responsibility for such issues. We possible. I look to each right hon. or hon. Member to certainly want to make progress on HFCs as quickly as ask one brief supplementary question, and I look to the possible. Secretary of State to provide a pithy reply. Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): I hope Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde) (Con): May I commend the that the Secretary of State will take the opportunity to Secretary of State for adopting many of the remind the press, as well as the House, that the one recommendations on low-carbon economies and fuel comprehensive study on the costs of introducing an poverty made by the Environment, Food and Rural ambitious framework of feed-in tariffs has shown that, Affairs Committee? In that context, why will the total by 2020, the UK energy account would be £12.5 billion budget of the Warm Front scheme be reduced in the better off as a result of our being able to produce our next financial year? After all, the right hon. Gentleman energy rather than importing it. That, however, depends has put a strong emphasis on improving home energy on the introduction of an ambitious scheme. efficiency for those on low incomes and the Committee I would be grateful if my right hon. Friend came back has recommended that one way of dealing with the with a specific answer to the question of percentages. Is financial deficit is to deny higher-rate taxpayers access he still working to a 2 per cent. contribution of renewable to the winter fuel payment. energy from feed-in tariffs? That figure was first set out in the Element Energy report and it was limited to Edward Miliband: I do not agree with the proposal assumptions about a threshold of 50 kW.The Secretary that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in the second of State was responsible for a hundredfold increase in part of his question; we need a balance of universal and that. Does the scale of our ambitions now match his targeted measures. On the first part of his question, I original intentions? should say that we have brought forward a lot of the Warm Front spending, and that is one of the reasons Edward Miliband: We are consulting on those questions. why the budget goes down. We always seek to do more Let me say to my hon. Friend, who is a long-standing on such issues. campaigner on these issues, that we are talking about two sets of things: the feed-in tariffs and the renewable Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I heat incentive. Both can make a contribution. As I said, warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. He there is a consultation and we look forward to hearing is absolutely right to concentrate on the recalibration of his views. the grid and on the makeover of homes in the domestic energy sector, and absolutely right to look fundamentally Mr. Lilley: Why did the Secretary of State’s reassuring at the reconstitution of Ofgem’s responsibility for renewable figures on the impact of these measures on household energy. In parallel with those moves, will he talk to his budgets contradict the figures in his most recent impact colleagues in other Departments to ensure that we have statement, which showed that the cost of renewables 303 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 304 currently adds 15 per cent. to electricity bills—a figure he has announced. They are a sign that the Government set to rise to nearly 50 per cent.—and that the increase are at last addressing the task of decarbonising Britain in gas bills will be 46 per cent.? with the necessary urgency. In view of the importance of early progress towards what he has set out, does the Edward Miliband: The figures are all set out in the Secretary of State accept that disentangling the effects documents. As I made clear in my statement, we need to of the recession on what will probably be a short-term look at the cost of renewables and the benefits of reduction in emissions from the effects of the measures energy efficiency, smart metering and all the other that he has announced is important to the process of measures that we are implementing as a result of climate evaluation over the next few years? change. That is the right way to look at the average impact on bills. Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman has made an important point. He does important work in the Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West and Royton) Environmental Audit Committee on these questions, (Lab): How does my right hon. Friend justify offering and I enjoy talking to him about them. It is true that in the airline industry a virtual exemption from the disciplines meeting our carbon targets we should not rely on what that will apply to almost all other industrial sectors? has happened in the economy in the past 18 months or According to projections, by 2050 the rise in aircraft so. That is part of the reason why it is right that we have emissions is expected to negate the cuts made in all been ambitious in the numbers that we have set out and other industrial sectors. Surely this cuckoo-in-the-nest why I said that we should over-achieve on our carbon protection of one highly polluting industry is simply no budgets. We also have to tighten the budget when it longer tenable? comes to an ambitious deal at Copenhagen.

Edward Miliband: I want to make one thing clear. We Dr. Desmond Turner (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab): I were the people who pushed for aviation to be included am pleased that my right hon. Friend is recognising the in the EU emissions trading scheme and for a price to potential contribution of wave and tide technology be put on aviation. We are raising air passenger duty, towards our renewables targets, and I am glad that he and we are the first country in the world to say that by has made provision for its support. However, that provision 2050 we will get aviation emissions back to current does not account for even 50 per cent. of the £405 million levels. We are the first to have set a framework for provided in the Budget for renewable energy support. aviation emissions. The truth is that we cannot have Furthermore, on the face of this statement, it does not equal cuts across the board if we are to do things in the take into account the special difficulties faced by the most cost-effective way. wave and tidal industry at present: there is a zero market for it. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Offshore wind, however, has the double renewables (LD): The Secretary of State’s announcement on social obligation certificates regime, which is fine for such a tariffs will be of no benefit to those who rely on unregulated well established technology. Many severe problems face fuels, such as oil and liquefied petroleum gas, to heat the wave and tide technology industry, which needs their homes. What assurance can he give the rural Government help to get it over the hurdles. Can my fuel-poor that they will not be penalised to pay for the right hon. Friend be more specific about what he plans low-carbon strategy? to do about that? Edward Miliband: There is a whole range of schemes to help the fuel-poor, including in rural areas. There is Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend has made an the carbon emissions reduction target, or CERT, scheme important point. We need to consider how to drive and the new community energy savings programme, or forward marine and tidal technology, including in respect CESP, scheme that my hon. Friend the Minister of of the ROCs issue, which he raised. As for the £405 million, State has been taking through this House. We know we are spending the money carefully and will make that there is more to do on fuel poverty, particularly in further announcements in due course. relation to the rural fuel-poor. Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): When will Mr. Adam Ingram (East Kilbride, Strathaven and work begin on the first new nuclear station and carbon Lesmahagow) (Lab): I draw my right hon. Friend’s storage plant identified in the Secretary of State’s statement? attention to the Scottish fossil fuel levy fund, which If it is not soon, the epitaph of this Government will be stands at £150 million and is rising almost exponentially. that they turned the lights out and left us all in the dark. The money can be spent only on the promotion of renewable energy, yet the Scottish National party-controlled Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman obviously Administration in Edinburgh will not draw it down. I practised that one in advance. Construction of the new ask my right hon. Friend to use all his influence to nuclear stations begins in the early part of the next encourage them to use that money for the purposes for decade because we have to go through the consultation, which it has been raised. the strategic siting assessments, and so on. It is a bit rich of the Conservatives to accuse us of being too slow on Edward Miliband: I fear that my influence with that these questions given that they opposed our proposals Administration might be limited, but I will endeavour right up until the last minute. We want to move forward to exercise that which I have. as fast as possible on carbon capture and storage.

Mr. Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): I warmly welcome Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): the Secretary of State’s statement and the measures that I welcome the statement, particularly in relation to 305 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 306

[Mrs. Louise Ellman] Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): The Secretary of State may not know of my long-standing support for transport. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that renewable energy, but he will know of the plethora of spending restrictions will not cut across any of these planning applications for onshore wind farms in the proposals? crowded east midlands. I shall not oppose those on the grounds that they are in my back yard, which they are, Edward Miliband: I certainly hope not. but my constituents are concerned about the proximity of some wind turbines to dwellings. Will he please look Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): How much carefully at the paper by a consultant in sleep disorders of the UK’s energy production will be sourced from that I have sent him, which says that the low-frequency nuclear by 2020? noise resulting from proximity to wind turbines can have an impact on sleep? I would be grateful if he would Edward Miliband: That depends on how quickly the take account of those concerns, address the issue quickly plans move forward. From 2018, the new stations will and give a clever answer. start to be built. As I said, the companies have plans for about 12 GW, which is more than existing capacity. I do Edward Miliband: I am not sure that I can give a not think that all of it will be built by 2020, but it will clever answer on the spot, but I am glad to hear that the probably be built in the early part of the following hon. Gentleman is a “yimby” rather than a nimby on decade. these questions. I will look at the paper that he has sent me. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): My right hon. Friend will appreciate that the Government have set themselves Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): As the world’s some challenging targets for reducing CO2 emissions. only new nuclear power station is already three years What role will the Climate Change Committee have in late in its construction and ¤2 billion over budget, is it monitoring the progress and success of the substantial not better to concentrate on the wonderful opportunities measures that he has announced? that we have for marine energy? In this country, we have half the amount of all the potential in Europe for Edward Miliband: The committee will produce its exploiting tidal power. Is not the way forward to concentrate first report card—as I think we should now call it—on on power sources that are carbon-free, British and our progress in September, and it will then produce eternal? Why is the opportunity vast but the investment annual report cards. puny? Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): As Longannet power station is in my constituency, I am Edward Miliband: I think that the investment is quite obviously keen for it to win the CCS competition, in significant. On the delay to the Scandinavian nuclear which Scottish Power is an enthusiastic bidder. We are power station, those involved did not undertake the keen for the decision to be announced as soon as generic design assessment that we shall undertake in possible. Can the Secretary of State go further than this country. Part of the delay was caused by their not saying that he is enthusiastic for it to move forward as agreeing the design with the regulators in advance. As I fast as possible and give us an indication of when the said in my statement, we need all the low-carbon result will be announced? technologies. Marine is important and wind is important, but nuclear is also important. Edward Miliband: We are engaged in a competition and the invitation to negotiate has gone out to the Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) companies involved, which will put forward their proposals. (Con): Does the Secretary of State appreciate that They will then have to do the engineering and design scepticism about his policy on wind turbines, fed by the studies, for which they will receive funding to help feeling that insufficient account is taken of their cumulative them, and we will choose a winner next year. impact on flat landscapes such as the fens, where they can be seen in all directions for miles, would be exacerbated Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): Will my right hon. if he granted permission for new fossil fuel power Friend join me in congratulating Kingspan on recently stations fed by imported gas in those same vulnerable winning the Queen’s award for enterprise? As he knows, landscapes? Kingspan, which has a factory in Glossop, creates high-quality insulation materials. What will he do to Edward Miliband: I obviously cannot comment on promote the use of insulation, both in retrofitting and particular planning decisions, but my ministerial team in new property, before the 2016 zero-carbon new homes and I will endeavour to look at the point that the hon. limit, not just in the homes of the fuel-poor but in all Gentleman raises. buildings? Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): May I Edward Miliband: I had the pleasure of attending a particularly congratulate my right hon. Friend on his Kingspan reception before it got its Queen’s award, and announcement that the Government, not the regulator, I pay tribute to the work that it does. I did not get a will set the grid access regime? Does he agree that our chance to announce in my statement that we are extending centralised transmission system means that on the CERT scheme to the end of 2012, which means that microgeneration we are years behind countries such as on top of the plans that we have already announced, Germany and Denmark? On the feed-in tariff, which he another 1.5 million homes will be insulated. I hope that understands is absolutely vital, will he do all that he can that will involve the use of a whole range of materials to move forward with urgency, for which, of course, we from a whole range of companies. need the full co-operation of National Grid plc? 307 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 308

Edward Miliband: I thank my right hon. Friend for Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): his remarks. I agree about the need to move forward on Does my right hon. Friend recall that in the 1980s this grid access, and I can promise him that the feed-in tariff country was the world leader in the development of will come in from April 2010. clean coal technology via the fluidised bed plant at Grimethorpe colliery in my constituency—until the Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Scottish Government Thatcher Government pulled the plug on its funding? have a world-leading target of a 42 per cent. reduction Does he agree that Yorkshire again has a leading role to in emissions in anticipation of agreement at Copenhagen. play, this time not just in the development of clean coal That obviously involves a large increase in renewables. I technology but in the development of carbon capture welcome what the Secretary of State said about grid and storage? access, but will he also think about transmission charges and balancing charges, which are a real problem for Edward Miliband: I agree with my hon. Friend. I some renewables generators in Scotland? Any help that know that the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg he can give us in prising the fossil fuel levy from the Clark) was not in the Conservative party in those days—he Treasury would be very welcome. was in a different political party—but mistakes were made. There are imaginative proposals from Yorkshire Edward Miliband: I do not want to get involved in an Forward about these matters, as well as from a number argument between the Treasury and the Scottish of other regions of our country. I hope that they can Government, as I might come off worse. We will consider benefit from our proposals on carbon capture and the point that the hon. Gentleman raises. Grid access is storage. a very important in every respect. Separately from my decisions, Ofgem is looking at the rates that will be set Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): for the fifth round of grid access charges. I hope that I am sure that everyone will welcome the Secretary of that may help on the issue that he raises. State’s announcement of a definite day—1 April 2010—for the introduction of feed-in tariffs. For those companies Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank the Secretary and individuals that are producing renewable energy of State for his statement and welcome many of the with the benefit of the ROC system, will there be an commitments made in it, although some of us are not opportunity to change to a feed-in system if that is persuaded on the cost or contribution of nuclear in this more appropriate? context. The test will be in the detail of delivery. Does he recognise that there are eight different Administrations Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises an in these islands which have different interests and important point. We want to ensure that people have involvements in energy, renewable energy, conservation certainty going forward and that we have the right measures and fuel poverty, and that he will therefore arrangements in place. They are set out in detail in our need to co-ordinate all those Administrations, possibly renewable energy strategy, which has been published through the British-Irish Council, to ensure that these today. islands become a positive and strong centre for renewable energy? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): What assessment Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend makes a very has the Secretary of State made of the environmental important point. The British-Irish Council plays an impact of uranium mining, the energy usage in refining important role in working on some of these energy uranium and the long-term costs of storage and clean-up issues. We need to co-operate across the whole of the after nuclear power stations have run over their time? United Kingdom as much as possible. Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend asks an important Mr. John Maples (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): In question. On the first part, we are convinced that the developing these policies, what account has the Secretary carbon gains from nuclear power far outweigh the costs of State taken of two recent but rather unexpected that he was talking about. On the second part, waste pieces of scientific evidence? One is the Hadley Centre’s and clean-up are a big legacy issue in Britain. That is series of global temperatures, which is one of the four why we passed legislation to place the responsibility for series used by the IPCC, and which shows cooling since those costs on the private sector. 1998. More recently, the American series developed by NASA, which uses measurements from satellites in Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The space and is thought to be the most accurate of all, Secretary of State said that cuts in emissions in agriculture shows global cooling over the past 30 years. would be made possible by new commitments on farming. Can he tell the House how he expects the agriculture Edward Miliband: I was not aware of the second piece industry to face those challenges? Surely it is important of evidence that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. On the that we do not challenge the profitability and sustainability first piece of evidence and more generally, one problem of farming throughout the UK. is that the results of studies taking 1998 as a starting point are very adversely affected by the impact of El Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman is completely Niño, which caused a significant amount of global right. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for warming. Therefore, it may look as though there has Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will want to work been overall cooling since 1998, but the evidence over a with farming communities across the UK on how that longer period of two decades that I have seen and have can be done. Innovative methods have been produced been advised on suggests that climate change is getting by a range of farmers across our country, and we will worse, not better. want to do this sensitively. 309 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan15 JULY 2009 UK Low Carbon Transition Plan 310

Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): In welcoming Pembrokeshire) (Lab): I welcome the statement, and his excellent statement, may I ask my right hon. Friend particularly the fact that households will now be the following? Will he examine how the large energy incentivised. The idea of spreading the cost of energy-saving and engineering companies and vehicle manufacturers equipment in the home is excellent. can partner smaller would-be developers, which are May I come back to the issue of social tariffs? Hundreds sometimes in the academic world and sometimes just of thousands of rural households cannot benefit from small venture companies, to ensure that we maximise social tariffs for their heating. Can the Secretary of the national advantage to jobs and so on and get the State assure me that, in the legislation that he is proposing, maximum commercial advantage out of the exciting rural households and particularly the oil companies revolution that he proposes? that supply them, which are currently making billions in profits, will be part of a social tariff for rural communities? Edward Miliband: I am glad that my hon. Friend raises that point, because there are proposals in the Edward Miliband: We will consult on the details, and low-carbon industrial strategy about how Government we will definitely consider the impact on rural communities. can work better on electric vehicles. I believe that an office is being set up to tackle the matter in the Department Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Was the of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Business, Secretary of State slightly disappointed by the Chancellor’s Innovation and Skills. We need to bring together the U-turn in putting up air passenger duty rather than incentives, the charging infrastructure and the huge taxing planes—in other words taxing passengers rather opportunities in the UK for the production of such than the polluter? vehicles. Edward Miliband: No; I think that the Chancellor made the right decision. There are different ways in Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): I warmly which we can have an impact on aviation and air travel. congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent statement. There needs to be more carbon accounting for the costs He will know that the Severn is designated a Natura of air travel, and that is what we are doing. 2000 site by the European Union. Given his announcement of the publication today of the shortlist of tidal proposals, Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I very much welcome can he advise the House of the progress that has been the recommitment to both renewable and nuclear power made in identifying the alternative ecosystems that we as part of the trinity that my right hon. Friend described. would have to provide under the Natura 2000 provisions He has answered the very important question about in order to proceed with de-designation? developing a skills base for the future, but we also need a UK supply base for these exciting developments. Will he ensure that that happens and work with local assemblies Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend speaks with great and local authorities so that we get a proper UK supply authority on these matters. My understanding is that base for the future? we have now published the shortlist, and that the process that will now take place will include an examination of Edward Miliband: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I all the different aspects, including the environmental hope that the money that we have made available for pros and cons for climate change and local environmental renewable energy will help people throughout our country. habitats. I am sure that that will be taken into account. There are important opportunities, and we want the UK to take them up. Several hon. Members rose— Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Will the autumn national policy statement on nuclear set out detailed Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I take points of order, time scales for the programme of the building of new given my exhortations about brevity I would like very nuclear plant and its coming on stream, and of the warmly to thank hon. and right hon. Members from the decommissioning of the old Magnox stations? Back Benches, and those speaking from the Front Benches, for the fact that they have taken heed of them. Aside Edward Miliband: The national policy statement will from the Front Benchers, no fewer than 33 hon. and certainly set out the details of new nuclear. That will be right hon. Members spoke from the Back Benches. It the focus of the statement. shows what can be done. 311 15 JULY 2009 Points of Order 312

Points of Order Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I congratulate you, Sir, on the speed of the previous statement? It is much appreciated 1.26 pm that all Back Benchers got in. Unfortunately, that was not the case at Prime Minister’s questions, during which Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): On a point of order, fewer than half the Back Benchers with questions on Mr. Speaker. I seek to invoke your help to improve the Order Paper were reached. The Prime Minister ministerial accountability to the House. Paragraph 9.3 appeared to me to be very long-winded and even to of the ministerial code states: make a mini-statement. I wonder whether you could “Every effort should be made to avoid leaving significant help Back Benchers get in at Prime Minister’s questions. announcements to the last day before a recess.” However, we all know that every single July we have a Mr. Speaker: I am very sympathetic to getting Back plethora of 30 or 40 written statements on the last day Benchers in—I served as a Back Bencher for rather a before we go into recess, including a whole lot of bad long time myself, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I know news that is being buried together. I have raised the that he would not for one moment try to draw me matter with the Prime Minister on a number of occasions beyond what I have already said on the matter. For the through written questions. Most recently, I asked him avoidance of doubt—it is important to be balanced—I what steps he would take to ensure compliance with said during Prime Minister’s questions that, exceptionally paragraph 9.3 of the ministerial code, to which he today, in rather exceptional circumstances, questions replied: and answers from the Front Bench were notably longer “Guidance for Ministers on announcements is set out in the than usual. I would like some economy in those matters Ministerial Code.”—[Official Report, 13 July 2009; Vol. 496, so that more Back-Bench Members get to ask questions c. 108W.] of the Prime Minister. That was all there was. What steps can you take, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that next week we do not have 30 or 40 statements on the last day as usual? Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance about procedure on a pressing matter. Today, I sent an urgent Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made his fax to the Secretary of State for Health, which needs a views very clear, and I am grateful to him for doing so. I reply and his intervention today, about the shameful think that he will understand, and I hope the House will behaviour of NHS Leeds towards the family of Dr. John appreciate, that it is not for me to rule or adjudicate as Hubley, who tragically died under its care. NHS Leeds between one orderly method of giving information to is now trying to overturn the coroner’s report, deny its the House and another. I think that Ministers are aware culpability and—outrageously—threaten the family with that there is a widespread appetite for oral statements, liability for legal costs. There is no other way of holding and it would be helpful if, to a greater extent in the it to account, so is there a way, Mr. Speaker, that I can future than in the past, that appetite could be met. raise the matter, or another way in which I can insist on a response and intervention from the Secretary of State Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): On a point today? Tomorrow will be too late—the deadline is today. of order, Mr. Speaker. The House is well aware of your concern to ensure that parliamentary questions are answered promptly. I am concerned that there seems to Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made his be a practice in some Departments of answering on point, which is firmly on the record. Frankly, I am not time on the required date by merely saying that they will sure whether what he has just said constitutes a point of write to the hon. Member concerned at some point in order, but to be helpful to him and the House let me say the indeterminate future. That indeterminate future can that, if memory serves me correctly, the hon. Gentleman often occur during a recess. Is there anything that you raised the matter at business questions last Thursday, can do to require Ministers, when there is sufficient time and he was promised a ministerial reply—when the and a clear possibility, to give a clear written answer Leader of the House responded to him, that promise within the timetable required by the House? was given. Let me gently say to those on the Treasury Bench that, if an hon. Member is promised a reply on the Thursday of one week, failure to deliver it by the Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for following Wednesday is below par. that point of order. The answer to his question is that I can certainly reiterate today what I have said on previous occasions and indicated in writing to the Leader of the Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): On a point House, who I know takes ministerial responsibility for of order, Mr. Speaker. The House will have heard these matters extremely seriously—namely, that replies earlier the disappointing news from Jaguar Land Rover to written questions should be timely, and that they that it is cutting car production along with jobs. Part of should also be substantive. It would, I think, represent a Jaguar Land Rover’s statement referred to the fact that breach of the spirit of the principle that I have set out, if it is still waiting to secure funding of some hundreds of not of the letter, if Ministers were simply to reply with millions of pounds from the European Investment Bank. what I suppose the hon. Gentleman would call a holding That is a matter for negotiation with UK Ministers, and response. What is needed is a substantive reply, and it may now put the company in jeopardy. Given the might interest the House to know that I requested of all urgency of the situation following Jaguar Land Rover’s Ministers a matter of a fortnight or so ago that the statement, I wonder whether you have received any backlog of written questions should be cleared, with indication that Ministers intend to come to the Dispatch substantive replies, before the summer recess. Box to tell us about the European Investment Bank loan? 313 15 JULY 2009 314

Mr. Speaker: I have to say to the hon. Lady—I know Protection of Elderly People (Unsolicited that it will disappoint her—that I have had no indication Mail) from any Minister of an intention to come to the House and make a statement on the matter, and I am not in a Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order position to require one. However, she has made her No. 23) point with her usual force and alacrity. 1.33 pm BILL PRESENTED Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the sending of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY unsolicited mail to elderly people; and for connected purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) By chance, we have a debate later today on care for Norman Baker presented a Bill to place upon the the elderly, so I am particularly pleased to introduce individual a greater responsibility for the consequences this ten-minute Bill. A Government Green Paper on for him of his own actions and of any failure on his part paying for care for the elderly was also published yesterday. to use common sense; and for connected purposes. I want to consider another way in which the House Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on should care for elderly people, however, because I believe Friday 16 October, and to be printed (Bill 134.) that we can judge a society by how it looks after its old people. I want to consider the all-too-common situation facing some old people. They will probably live alone. Typically, they may be old women, who are possibly widowed. Through their doors, piles of mail pour daily—I have such a pile here—to be read by a person who was raised in a gentler and more honest society than ours. Of course, many old people are busy and active with friends, and understand what to do with junk mail—namely, throw it away. However, others are lonely and perhaps confused and bored. They have time to read the junk mail, and an industry has been created that preys on them. A constituent first alerted me to the problem. Since then, the personal experience of my 89-year-old mother has revealed the problem in all its detail—and she is registered with the Mailing Preference Service. However, I am not making a personal plea. Only today, I spoke to a journalist who had the exactly the same experience with his old father before he died, and I have also read a three-year-old article from The Guardian, which believed in September 2006 that the Office of Fair Trading would introduce a solution. The problem has two sides. The first is less serious and involves mail from charities, many of which have laudable aims. Mailshots are an accepted and possibly important way in which to raise to money, and many people are employed by charities to do mailshots. I am sure that that raises money for what one hopes are good causes. However, I suggest that all charities examine their consciences and the aims of their work and consider whether they should target old, confused and lonely people, tugging at their heartstrings to get money out of them. Let me give a few examples. I have a pile of letters from animal charities, including Animals in Crisis; the Dogs Trust; Compassion in World Farming; Spana, which is about animals in Spain; World Horse Welfare; Network for Animals; People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and the International Fund for Animal Welfare. I also have letters from human charities, including St. Christopher’s Fellowship; VSO; St. Mungo’s; Feed My People; Medical Mission International; Ethiopia Aid; Christian Blind Mission and—most perversely—Help the Aged. All those begging letters arrived in one month. Indeed, Help the Aged wrote to an 89-year-old woman, pointing out that she had cancelled her direct debit and asking if she would like to reinstate it. Such a charity could have applied a little common sense. 315 Protection of Elderly People 15 JULY 2009 Protection of Elderly People 316 (Unsolicited Mail) (Unsolicited Mail) I do not doubt the good intentions of many of those prize of £9.492 million, which will be paid directly to charities, if not all of them, but I question whether they the person who responds. All people have to do is should bombard elderly people in that manner. I suggest, register for the Australian lottery. I suggest that there is first, that charities should have a box that over-75s only a small difference in scale between that and the might tick to indicate their age, and then a voluntary e-mails that we have all received, usually from Africa, code, providing that they will not send further begging telling us that if we help Mr. X get his £20 million out of letters to over-75s. I also suggest that they employ some dodgy country, he will split it with us 50:50. common sense. If an elderly person is subjected to Riches beyond the dreams of avarice apparently await constant direct mail, the charities should be somewhat us: we need only send the details of our bank accounts— ashamed of themselves. The worst example is from many people each year do send them—and we will be IFAW. I have several letters that suggest that an elderly set up for life. It sounds too good to be true; and, of person has won £20,000. We all know that that is not course, it is too good to be true—it is fraudulent and true, but IFAW and its chief executive, Mr. Fred O’Regan, criminal. send elderly people letters, which say that all they need The question that I would like to ask about the sort to do is register to be entered into a fantastic prize draw: of letters to which I have referred is this: why are those “Red Hot Cash Payout—£35,000 of prizes to be won.” people not prosecuted for fraudulently trying to obtain It states that if people follow the rules, cash prize funds money from vulnerable people? Surely the people who will be paid to winners. IFAW should be ashamed of send such letters are behaving in a manner that should itself. require, at the very least, questions to be asked by the However, the second element is much more pernicious, Office of Fair Trading, the police, trading standards or and there is nothing laudable in the motives of those others. What loopholes are those people exploiting? responsible. Direct mail is being sent to elderly people—and, Why do the Government or another authority not close I suspect, others—pretending that the recipient has won those loopholes and pursue such companies? money. All the recipient has to do is buy something useless and worthless or send money to receive a huge A ten-minute Bill, as everybody here knows, is just a cash prize. I have here a large pile—too large to hold in way of raising an issue. I am not, in fact, proposing new one hand—of one month’s largely unopened junk mail. laws or even new regulations. Instead, I am calling on Some letters come from something called “Our Life” in the conscience of charities, and for them to work on a Greenford. There is another from the “Department of simple code of conduct, so that they do not exploit the Information”, again in Greenford, which states: “You elderly to help their causes, which may or may not be have won £20,500”. A letter from Biotonic, also in deserving. At the same time, the Government, the police Greenford, states exactly the same thing, except that and other authorities should give serious attention to some Biotonic and Star Shopping letters say: preventing fraudsters and near-fraudsters from sending unsolicited mail to elderly people and taking their money “You have won £15,500—your winning status is certified— on a dishonest premise. Such people are making the congratulations”. elderly, for whom we all share responsibility, the victims Interestingly, all those documents state that people cannot of blatant scams. write to Greenford but have to send their money to Anderlecht in Belgium or somewhere else in the European Question put and agreed to. Union. I can see that the post office in Greenford is Ordered, extremely busy. Spookily, most of the entities have the same postcode. That Mr. Andrew Robathan present the Bill. There is also something called the “Skills Testing Mr. Andrew Robathan accordingly presented the Bill. Unit”, which tells elderly people that they have an Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on official cheque for £34,000 waiting. Better yet is the Friday 30 October and to be printed (Bill 135). 317 15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 318

There is no doubt that public confidence has been Opposition Day sorely lacking in the past few years. In several cases raised by hon. Members on behalf of constituents there [16TH ALLOTTED DAY] has been a prima facie case for believing that justice was not being done. Current events make the case for a review all the more urgent. The motion that we will vote US-UK Extradition Treaty on at the end of this debate is therefore designed to underline the case for such a review. The motion does Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I must inform not seek to prescribe what changes should take place, the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment even though many right hon. and hon. Members will in the name of the Prime Minister. have strong views about the detail. Neither does it seek to condemn the Government for their handling of our Before calling the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell extradition system in recent years. The motion is simply (Chris Grayling) to move the motion, I should inform designed to demonstrate that there is a will in Parliament the House that Mr. Speaker has decided to exercise his for change. I hope that Members in all parts of the discretion and waive the House’s sub judice rule, to House will join me in the Lobby to send a message to enable passing reference to be made to the case of Ministers about the need for change. Mr. Gary McKinnon in relation to the principle of the Extradition is a pretty trying process for a person to motion. Members should not, however, discuss the go through and it can take an immense psychological details of the case. and physical toll. In the United Kingdom alone, the act On another matter, the House will be aware that of extracting someone from their home to stand trial Mr. Speaker is seeking to increase the opportunities for and then serve a prison sentence will change their life Back Benchers to contribute at Question Time, on for ever. To do that to someone and also send them to a statements and in debates. In the Opposition day last foreign country with a different legal system is something week, he was conscious that the Front Benchers absorbed that should be decided only in a process of the utmost a disproportionate share of the time available for the rigour and scrutiny. That is why any system that is put debate. He hopes that that will not happen again. in place to manage such a process must be subject to the most serious checks and balances on both sides of the 1.43 pm arrangement. It is our fear on the Conservatives Benches— and, I suspect, among Members in all parts of the Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I beg to House—that the arrangements that are currently in move, place for extradition from the United Kingdom do not That this House expresses its very great concern that the meet the criteria that we would expect on reciprocity Extradition Act 2003 is being undermined by a series of high and fairness. profile cases that are jeopardising confidence in the extradition system; and calls on the Government to hold immediately a Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): The previous Home review of the Act with a view to reforming it at the earliest Secretary but one is on record as saying that when the opportunity to deal with the issues of public concern. agreement was signed, Britain did not get the best I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for clarifying possible deal from the United States. The Opposition Mr. Speaker’s judgment in this matter. If it helps, let me have put forward a very modest motion—it is a motion give Members a brief background. The Gary McKinnon not to end extradition, but to review it. Does the hon. case has been extensively publicised in recent days, but Gentleman not agree that that issue should form part of it cannot currently be the subject of debate in this a review, to ensure that we get the possible deal for our House, as you rightly say, because of the rules that citizens, even when we are dealing with allies and friends? apply on sub judice. The McKinnon case is currently subject to a further round of legal proceedings in the Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree with the right hon. courts—proceedings that were taking place this morning Gentleman. The principle of reciprocity is particularly and, as far as I am aware, are still taking place as we important, and I will return to it later in my remarks. speak this afternoon. The House has strict rules about Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): The debating matters where legal proceedings are in train. hon. Gentleman has now acknowledged that, in considering Under a resolution of this House that was passed on this matter, we should consider issues of principle. 15 November 2001 on matters that are sub judice, we Would not a reasonable principle to take into account—a cannot discuss the case unless and until those proceedings principle that might have formed part of his motion—be are concluded. that the constitutional position of British citizens under However, the concerns that exist about our current the extradition treaty should be no less strong than the extradition arrangements go much wider than simply constitutional position of American citizens? the McKinnon case. The matter has been debated and issues have been raised for a number of years. As I think Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree with the right hon. you will agree, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the McKinnon case and learned Gentleman. Indeed, if the Home Secretary has brought those issues back to the fore. That is why will consider opening such a review, as I very much we have sought to use this time to allow Members in all hope he will after today’s debate, I believe strongly that parts of the House to discuss those concerns and to the principle that the right hon. and learned Gentleman send a clear message to Ministers that we want the has just outlined should underpin it. current situation to be reviewed. Such a review is vital The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the to maintain the integrity of the extradition system, to United States. Our arrangements with the United States make changes to ensure that it is fair and just, and to have most regularly been the subject of question and ensure that it enjoys public confidence. concern, although the issue also applies to our legal 319 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 320 relationships with other countries. I am not seeking to right to say that it is the mark of a strong Government criticise the conduct of the United States or any other to accept when they have got something wrong and to country—they are rightly looking after the interests of make changes. their citizens. Rather, it is this Parliament and our Government who make the rules surrounding extradition Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): Given from the United Kingdom. The Extradition Act 2003 the fact that the motion has been phrased so as not to set the framework for those rules, but we are unconvinced criticise the Government, did it not surprise my hon. that it is working in the way that we should expect. Friend that they did not find it possible simply to accept We on the Conservative Benches have spent many an it? Instead, they have tabled a portentous and pretentious hour over the past few years pointing out some of the amendment which suggests that the world is a better iniquities of the current arrangements, as have many place because they are always perfect. Why do this outside this House, as well as Members from other Government find it impossible ever to say sorry about parties here. Once again, the Government have constructed anything? a piece of legislation that, although intended to do something useful and important, has managed to spread Chris Grayling: My right hon. Friend is absolutely into a whole host of other areas. Frankly, we have seen right. The House would be grateful to the Home Secretary that again and again—indeed, it is a trap that the if he withdrew his amendment, accepted the principle Government have fallen into on many occasions. of the motion and agreed to look again at the arrangements. Let us take the example of the Regulation of There are three big problems with the current Investigatory Powers Act 2000. It was designed to address arrangements. The first relates to the people who are terrorism and serious crime, but it is now used by local being extradited. We have long argued that the Extradition councils to do a whole range of things for which it was Act 2003 has resulted in a situation whereby the people not intended, such as spying on garden centres to see who get caught up in the system and who are being whether they are selling pot plants without planning extradited are not those whom the Government said the permission for a change in use, or monitoring dog legislation was designed to target. We were originally walkers with covert CCTV cameras. The law of unintended told that the legislation represented a move to address consequences has been all too present in the legislative the international security situation after the horrendous processes of the past few years. incidents of 2001. However, the House of Commons Library has assembled an analysis of the people who Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I hope that the have been requested for extradition by the United States. shadow Home Secretary will not think that my point is They include 20 people requested for drugs offences, merely one of semantics. We talk about the extradition 18 for fraud, two for satellite signal theft, three for theft treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom, and just one who was involved in a terrorist case. but actually there is no such piece of legislation in the These issues are not just about our relationship with United Kingdom. These things are done under the the United States. The 2003 Act also enacted the royal prerogative. In contrast, the measures in question arrangements that exist with other countries, particularly were endorsed in legislation in the United States Congress the European arrest warrant. It is another example of a two and a half years after we promulgated our side of measure that was introduced when security was top of the so-called bargain. There has clearly been a disparity the agenda. It was designed to enable the swift transfer from the beginning. For two and a half years, we were between one country and another of terrorist suspects, implementing our part of the treaty, whereas the United but it has subsequently developed mission creep, and in States refused to do so. That is simply unfair. A previous so doing, it has undermined civil liberties. Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett), ignored the fact Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Is it that this Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Select Committee not also noteworthy that, in the list of offences that my protested time and again about the disparity and the hon. Friend just gave to the House, there was no mention inequality of application of the treaty. of computer hacking? Other serious computer hacking offences have been dealt with by our own courts, leading Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman’s comments speak in some cases to custodial sentences. Crucially, justice for themselves, and he is absolutely right. This issue has been seen to be done in this country. must be addressed. Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Clearly, the concern that point, and I will come back to that issue, because is felt in the House about the high-profile cases is also another key question is where we should implement strongly felt in the country. Does the hon. Gentleman justice when a case involves multiple jurisdictions. agree that it is the mark of a strong Government, rather British citizens can be extradited to other parts of than a weak one, to recognise that mistakes have sometimes Europe for a range of extraordinarily ill-defined offences been made? I hope that many of my colleagues will join that might not even constitute a crime here or in many others this afternoon in supporting this very sensible other European countries. There have already been move to review an Act that is now falling into disrepute. examples of the European arrest warrant being used in a way that most of us would feel was inconsistent with Chris Grayling: I agree with the hon. Lady. In this the original principles discussed at the time of its place, it is very easy to believe that Governments either introduction. The rapid move to strengthen extradition get it all wrong or get it all right. Actually, the truth is arrangements in the first part of this decade was clearly somewhere between those two extremes. They get things designed to combat the terror threat, but those new wrong, and they get things right, and she is absolutely arrangements should not be allowed to become a quick 321 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 322

[Chris Grayling] and the FBI co-ordinated raids on the homes of the group’s members, including those of Harvey in County and convenient way of bypassing what would have been Durham and Bradley in Darlington. At Newcastle Crown the due process for other forms of charge and alleged court in 2005, Harvey, aged 24, was jailed for two offence. months, and Bradley, aged 22, for three months when The second big problem with the present arrangements they admitted conspiracy to cause unauthorised involves the way in which we appear to be sub-contracting modification of computers with intent. justice to other countries in cases in which there appears In all those instances, the crimes were tried in the to be a competing jurisdiction. This goes back to the United Kingdom and extradition was not required. It is point that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, important to state that I am not commenting on the Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) made a moment ago. There verdicts or on the circumstances of those cases; I am is a strong case for arguing that the courts should have a simply underlining that Britain has in the past been statutory duty to consider issues of what is called willing and able to try people in the United Kingdom forum—in other words, the question of which country when there are issues of conflicting jurisdictions, and I has the most appropriate claim to prosecute—and that believe that our extradition arrangements should reflect this country should not sub-contract difficult prosecutions that. to other countries. The Police and Justice Act 2006 incorporated provisions This problem is going to arise again and again in to insert an appropriate forum requirement into the cases involving cybercrime in particular—my hon. Friend Extradition Act 2003. However, the Government have has just mentioned computer hacking—not only in the refused to activate it. It provides that if extradition is Gary McKinnon case but in a whole variety of others not in the interests of justice, it can be barred, and that around the world. I remind the House of the recent case a decision not to prosecute in the UK may be a relevant of the two Swedish men who were prosecuted in their factor. My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch own country for piracy offences, but whose crimes had (James Brokenshire) sought to activate this provision clearly crossed jurisdictions around the world. The while the current Policing and Crime Bill was being provisions of the law in this country should be much considered in this House, but his efforts were talked out. clearer about when a case should or should not be tried The late, and sadly lamented, Lord Kingsland and in the United Kingdom. There are clear legal precedents my noble Friend Baroness Hanham tabled an amendment for this: British people charged with crimes that were to the Policing and Crime Bill that would affect the allegedly committed in the United Kingdom but which Police and Justice Act 2006. The amendment would electronically targeted organisations in other countries provide that paragraphs 4 and 5 of schedule 13 should have been brought before the courts in the United come into force on the day on which the Policing and Kingdom. Crime Act 2009 is passed. In the light of this debate, Let us take as an example the case of Aaron Caffrey, and of the issues that lie behind it, perhaps Labour a young British man suffering from Asperger’s syndrome, Members in another place might wish to consider carefully who was blamed for causing the biggest systems crash whether to join us in trying to redress this imbalance. ever to hit the United States. During a two-week trial at The third big problem relates to the imbalances that Southwark Crown court in 2003, Caffrey was accused exist—despite what the Government claim in their of launching an electronic attack in 2001 on America’s amendment—in the current extradition arrangements. busiest port at Houston, Texas. The jury cleared him of As hon. Members have pointed out, there is an inherent any wrongdoing after accepting his claim that unknown unfairness relating to the evidence that needs to be computer users had hijacked his machine, using it as a presented to begin an extradition. Countries that are Trojan horse to stage the attack. His case was tried in classified for the purposes of the 2003 Act as category 2 this country, and he was found not guilty. He was not countries can be given an additional designation, enabling extradited to the United States. them to dispense with the requirement to provide prima Then there was Richard Pryce, a man said to have facie evidence with their extradition requests. A territory been in the enhanced category 2 status need only provide “doing more harm than the KGB” “information” rather than “evidence” to satisfy tests for the issuing of warrants. Under section 84 of the Act, and dubbed the the United States need only provide “No. 1 threat to US security”. “evidence which would be sufficient to make a case requiring an Pryce, working from his bedroom with two £750 computers answer by the person if the proceedings were the summary trial of to help him with exams, hacked into systems at NASA any information against him”. and at US air bases. From there, he explored systems in That is pretty weak anyway, but this provision is not south-east Asia, causing chaos when he invaded the reciprocal; there is an imbalance in the evidential computer of a Korean atomic research institute. At the requirements for extradition between the US and the time, the Americans were in the midst of delicate UK. negotiations with the North Koreans, and they were Even members of the Government accepted that the terrified because the break-in appeared to originate extradition arrangements were unfair. When these issues from a US air base. In 1997, Bow street magistrates were debated in Standing Committee, the right hon. fined the 19-year-old £1,200 after he admitted 12 offences Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) gave a candid that his lawyer described as a “schoolboy prank”. assessment of arrangements: There was also the case of Andrew Harvey and “If the second order designating category 2 territories is approved, Jordan Bradley, who were part of an Anglo-American the United States will no longer be required to supply prima facie hacking group that set out to cause worldwide chaos by evidence to accompany its extradition requests to the United infiltrating home computers. The US security services Kingdom...In contrast, when we make extradition requests to the 323 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 324

United States, we will need to submit sufficient evidence to Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. establish ‘probable cause’. That is a lower test than prima facie The Home Secretary and I will have days when we spar but a higher threshold than we ask of the United States, and I and days when we do not, and I very much hope that make no secret of that. Under the terms of its constitution the today can be one of constructive discussion leading to a USA cannot set its evidential standard any lower than ‘probable cause’...I do not see why we should impose a more stringent test genuine consensus across the House that a review is on the USA. Nor do I see why the absence of complete reciprocity necessary to deal with a whole range of actual or affects the issue.”—[Official Report, Third Standing Committee on potential injustices that have taken place in our extradition Delegated Legislation, 15 December 2003; c. 7.] system in recent years as a result of these agreements. Well, I think that the right hon. Lady was wrong then, that the Government have been wrong about this issue, Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I and that it is essential to address it. Her candid observations seem to recall that the original negotiations were done will provide little comfort to those who will suffer in an unusual manner and were peculiarly related to because of the different levels of evidence required. It is terrorism, war and defence implications. The heart of this issue that, I suspect more than most, underpins the Government’s argument at the time was that there many of the cases that Members of all parties have was “rough equivalence”, but the very use of the word brought forward when their constituents have found “rough” demonstrated that there was no equivalence. themselves caught up in a system that they rightly think That lies at the heart of our current difficulties. If the is unfair and risks causing some real injustices. new Home Secretary could stand back from all this and see the process leading up to these arrangements, I There have been practical examples, as in the case of think he might come around to the view that it is Alex Stone, who was extradited to the US because he reasonable to establish protection for British citizens was accused of injuring the child of a woman whom he that is not rough equivalence, but equivalence. had met online. Yet once he had been extradited, the original charges against him were dropped. His lawyer Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. commented at the time: I am tempted to say “very rough equivalence”, because “No longer do the American authorities have to provide prima the gap is really quite big, as we have seen in some of the facie evidence for extradition, but what is also of concern is what cases. I do not suggest that it was initially the Government’s happened to Alex Stone when he was returned to the US”. intention that some of these injustices should take This in an example in which there was not even sufficient place, but none the less they have taken place, and there evidence to pursue a case once the extradition had are real concerns about individual cases. Perhaps more taken place. That surely underlines the concerns that than anything else, those cases underline the need for rightly exist about the current system. We think that change. All our debate and discussion of these issues is those imbalances need to be addressed and that there relevant to the concerns about Gary McKinnon, yet his should be reciprocity in our extradition arrangements. is but one of many cases brought to our attention by We also think that a reasonable burden of proof should right hon. and hon. Members that amplify the need for apply before someone can be extradited. change.

Mr. Gummer: Could my hon. Friend venture an Sir Menzies Campbell: I am grateful to the hon. explanation of why the Government thought it necessary Gentleman for giving way a second time. I have been not to enact the same level of evidential standards as interested in this matter since 2003. I have sought an the Americans demanded? What is it that led the explanation, including from the former Prime Minister, Government to make this ludicrous decision that we did of why the UK was willing to enter into a treaty that not need what the Americans insisted was constitutionally disadvantaged British citizens to the advantage of American necessary? citizens. I have received no such explanation, but may I suggest that it may well be that in the period immediately after the military action against Iraq, the then Government’s Chris Grayling: I would love to be able to give my policy of staying as close as they possible could to the right hon. Friend an answer to that question, but I do United States was the motive that lay behind the treaty. not have a clue—it makes no sense to me, and I simply It is a policy that has been shown, if I may say so, to be cannot understand the thought processes. I know that rather barren and unhelpful by subsequent events. the Home Secretary has inherited from his predecessors a pig in a poke, but I cannot understand why reciprocity Chris Grayling: The right hon. and learned Gentleman was not a basic principle of an extradition treaty. It may well be right, but sufficient time has now passed, makes no logical sense, and we can see the consequences regardless of the original reasons, for it to be both in the cases I mentioned. I do not seek to comment on sensible and logical to embark on a review of those the guilt or otherwise of any of those people, but I arrangements in order to see what can be done to believe their cases highlight the ways in which current improve them. arrangements are rightly subject to criticism and why Some other countries refuse to extradite their citizens there is a real need for reform. at all. As a nation, we have not chosen that path, but we should exercise maximum caution in circumstances where Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): Notwithstanding we allow the extradition of British people. We should the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for seek proper reciprocity in our mutual arrangements Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), does my hon. Friend with other nations; we should be much more clearly agree that it would be a very simple matter for the willing to try in this country cases that affect multiple Government to support our motion today because it jurisdictions; we should make sure our arrangements do implies no criticism of the Government whatever? They not have mission creep and are used for the purposes could support it without any loss of face. they were intended for—not those they were never 325 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 326

[Chris Grayling] judges at extradition hearings, which could result in serious criminals evading justice; and further notes that since 2004, intended for. I believe that the will of this House is for people have been convicted on murder, manslaughter and smuggling these issues to be looked at again. After six years of the charges in the UK following extradition from the US, whilst those charged with murder and terrorism offences have been extradited Act’s operation, it is time to examine not only where it is to the USA.”. working— I appreciate the tone in which the hon. Member for The Secretary of State for the Home Department Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) introduced the debate. (Alan Johnson): I appreciate the hon. Gentleman giving The issue is important, and it is important to discuss it. way. I sense that he is coming to the end of his speech. The reason why I shall be urging the House to support The motion talks about the Government amendment is that I do not think that the Opposition have made the case for amending the “a series of high profile cases”. Extradition Act 2003. The motion refers to I have heard about one case, on which Mr. Speaker has ruled, so I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could “a series of high profile cases”. set out the other high-profile cases. [HON.MEMBERS: Without stretching the definition of the words “high” “He has.”] and “profile”, I believe that there are two such cases. I shall deal with those two cases, but I shall also deal with Chris Grayling: If the Home Secretary wants me to some low-profile cases which, while they may not have do so briefly, we could take the case of the former chief made the newspapers, have been handled successfully executive of Morgan Crucible, for example. We greatly under the 2003 Act. debated the NatWest three at the time, and I suspect that as our debate continues we will hear from a number of hon. Members about cases where similar issues have Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I do not arisen. I do not know the exact number, but there are think that we should confine ourselves to an examination many cases—probably a dozen—where these issues are of our relations and extradition treaties with the United relevant. I found the particular case of the former boss States, because the issue goes very much further than of Morgan Crucible to be one of the most alarming. He that. The 2003 Act facilitates extradition under the was threatened with extradition for committing an offence European arrest warrant in circumstances in which, I that did not exist at the time his actions took place. This suggest to the Home Secretary, it has been called into is a matter of particular concern to my hon. and learned question, because of anxieties about the systems of Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), who justice in some of the states to which people can be will undoubtedly say more about it in his winding-up extradited, and indeed in other parts of the world. It is speech. not just a question of UK-US relations. As I was saying, I think that the will of this House is for these issues to be looked at again. After six years of Alan Johnson: I am sorry, but the headings on the the Act’s operation, it is time to examine where it is Order Paper read as follows: “Main Business”, “Opposition working and where it is not. The Home Secretary says Day (16th allotted day)”, “US-UK Extradition Treaty”. he wants lots of cases, but I believe that that if there is I am well aware of the points that the hon. and learned just one injustice as a result of these arrangements, it is Gentleman has made, but the point that I am making is one injustice too many. We are conducting this debate that a case has not been made for reviewing the 2003 today because we fear that there may well be one Act. As for injustice too many, and we need the Government to “a series of high profile cases”, look at what they can do about it. People outside the House will be looking at what we say and do today and there are two such cases, and I shall say something hoping against hope that Ministers will go away from about them shortly. this debate with a commitment to look at not only one First, I want to talk about the 2003 Act. I am pleased injustice, but all of them. I hope that Ministers will that the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield accept the need for review, and that they will go forth (Mr. Grieve) mentioned the European arrest warrant. I today accepting that the will of the House is for change. have read the report of the Second Reading of the 2003 I hope that the House will back this motion and that it Act, which took place in December 2002. It was a very will lead to a proper review of our extradition system. interesting debate. The right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron)—at the time, he was a member of the 2.9 pm Home Affairs Committee, which did an awful lot of work on the Bill—said: The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Alan Johnson): I beg to move an amendment, to leave “I will vote against the Bill because I disapprove of… specifically out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: the changes to dual criminality.”—[Official Report, 9 December 2002; Vol. 396, c. 106.] “notes that it is beneficial to the public to be able to extradite people accused of crimes in another country who might otherwise That issue related specifically to the European arrest escape justice and that extradition treaties such as the US-UK warrant. However, I cannot find a single mention of Extradition Treaty 2003 work to the significant benefit of both reciprocity in the report of the Second Reading debate. countries; notes that the UK must demonstrate ‘probable cause’ The issue on which the Liberal Democrats, I believe, to the US courts while the US must demonstrate ‘reasonable abstained and the Conservative Opposition walked through suspicion’ to the UK courts; notes that these tests are broadly equivalent given the differences between the legal systems in the the No Lobby was, once again, their absolute fixation two jurisdictions; recognises the view that ascertaining whether with Europe and the European arrest warrant. [HON. prosecution ought to take place in the UK should be considered MEMBERS: “Rubbish!”] Those who are saying “Rubbish” by relevant prosecutors at the beginning of the process and not by should read the report of the debate in Hansard. 327 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 328

Mr. Gummer: As one who cannot be accused of being complied with the European convention on extradition, in any way antagonistic to the European Union, let me signed in 1957, which in itself consolidated legislation say to the Home Secretary that he is not doing either made as long ago as about 1879. There was a real need himself or the Government any good by not facing the to update the system. real issue. There is profound dissatisfaction and unhappiness My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for not about what happened originally, but about the Communities and Local Government, who was then workings of the 2003 Act. Will the Home Secretary Minister for Policing, Crime Reduction and Community address the question why he will not look at that again? Safety, said: “Our extradition arrangements are in urgent need of reform. Alan Johnson: I have been around for long enough to On average, it takes 18 months to extradite someone from the UK know that when one is advancing an effective argument, and, in many cases, much longer. The system allows the fugitive there are an awful lot of interventions. The hon. and to raise the same—arguably, often spurious—points time and learned Member for Beaconsfield has said that this is again, and to mount numerous legal challenges. Even when—as not about UK-US relations, although the heading of has happened many times—an individual appeals all the way to the Conservatives’ own motion says that it is. Then the House of Lords following the committal hearing, he there is what happened on Second Reading. I am not —or she— making this up; it is on the record in Hansard. There “can, once the Secretary of State has considered the case, appeal was no mention of reciprocity or UK-US relations— all the way again on exactly the same grounds.”—[Official Report, [Interruption.]—apart from by the Liberal Democrats. 9 December 2002; Vol. 396, c. 39.] Her Majesty’s official Opposition were concentrating This was a system that had been in urgent need of on the European arrest warrant, to which the hon. and reform for many years. The point that I am making is learned Member for Beaconsfield referred in his that before saying that we want to look into and reform intervention. The debate was totally dominated by that a system, we must consider the effects that that would issue. have. We should not be changing the Extradition Act every couple of years. The 2003 Act dealt with some Mr. Shepherd: Will the Home Secretary give way? serious anomalies, and it dealt with them successfully.

Alan Johnson: I will give way once more, but then I Kate Hoey: I take the Home Secretary’s point that must make some progress. there was a need to examine this whole area, but does he not accept that at a certain stage it became clear that the Mr. Shepherd: I am obliged to the Home Secretary. system was not working in terms of natural justice, in He has referred to the Second Reading debate, but the the contexts of both public confidence and individuals? fact is that we had a series of debates on the subject, Can he not spend a little time telling us how he feels that including an important one when the right hon. Member it could be changed in order to end ridiculous situations, for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid) was Home Secretary. which the public will not accept, involving individuals The arguments about rough equivalence and so forth such as Gary McKinnon? The present system is simply were examined and fought over. The underlying principle not acceptable. It is not fair, it is not just, and we should was that when a British citizen was involved, the case be able to do something about it in this Parliament. should be made in a British court in the ordinary, traditional way. That imperative originated before the Alan Johnson: I shall come to the specific issues. This European arrest warrant and the war on terrorism. is not a speech that will end in a couple of seconds, It relates to a meeting in Washington, and we have although I want to make some progress. argued it. I was explaining why we had to change the previous system. The 1989 Act was both unwieldy and cumbersome. Alan Johnson: I am sure that people have argued it. I Extradition procedures took too long, and we were not am telling the House what happened on Second Reading. able to respond flexibly or quickly to the evolving and Second Reading is important to this debate, because we increasingly global nature of criminal activity today. are talking about reviewing the 2003 Act, and I returned The Bill was not produced in a rush after 9/11; it took a to it to see what was controversial at that time. long time and much consideration in the House, including The 2003 Act provides the necessary framework to consideration by the Select Committee. ensure that people who have committed serious crimes cannot evade justice by virtue of their residence in Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Will another country. Such arrangements are critical in an the Home Secretary give way? age when crime—in particular, serious and organised crime and terrorism—knows no national borders, and Alan Johnson: No. I will make some progress before bringing perpetrators to justice depends increasingly on taking any more interventions. effective co-operation between criminal justice systems The 2003 Act has simplified extradition procedures, across the world. while ensuring that the rights of those wanted in other It was wrong to suggest that the 2003 Act was brought countries are upheld. The amount of time that it takes before the House as a result of 9/11. In fact, the report to extradite people from other countries in Europe has on which it was based was published in March 2001, been reduced from an average of 18 months to 50 days. months before 9/11, as a result of a long and studious The 2003 Act has been instrumental in bringing criminals examination by the Home Affairs Committee and others. to justice. It has made possible the operation of the The reason a change was needed then—unlike now—is European arrest warrant, which I do not believe has that extradition was then governed by the Extradition failed—for instance, it led to the extradition of Hussain Act 1989, whose purpose was to ensure that the UK Osman, who was wanted in connection with the failed 329 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 330

[Alan Johnson] but the fact is that there are insufficient safeguards, and on top of that the treaty that was negotiated with the bombing attempts in London on 21 July 2005. The use United States is more visibly deficient in terms of lack of the European arrest warrant meant that he was of proper reciprocity than any other agreement that we returned to the UK in a matter of weeks as opposed to have entered into. That is why this debate is so relevant. months or even years, as might have been case under the 1989 Act. Alan Johnson: I am sorry, but I did not frame this motion; the Opposition did. I am just pointing out the Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con) rose— disparities. Of course I want to talk about the 2003 Act and the UK-US treaty, because they are both important Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman is clearly bursting subjects in this debate. The hon. and learned Gentleman to intervene, so I shall allow him to. intervened on me to say that this is not just all about the US and the UK, but it is also about Europe. That is Mr. Burns: I am extremely grateful to the Home where this particular discussion comes from. Secretary. He has explained how the 2003 Act has I disagree profoundly about there being an absence of reduced the amount of time that it takes for someone to any safeguards, but I shall come on to that shortly, and I be extradited from this country. Given the way in which certainly reject the suggestion that the extradition the American courts can be used to string out decisions arrangements between the UK and the US, as set out in for years, has he any figures to indicate whether the the 2003 Act and in the treaty, are somehow unbalanced. 2003 Act has concertinaed the time that it takes for That argument has traditionally been made on the people to be extradited from the United States? following basis. First, it is argued that the evidential requirement placed on US authorities seeking to extradite Alan Johnson: I have not got any figures, but I have people from the UK is somehow less burdensome than no reason to think that that has not been a result of this the evidence that the UK is expected to produce to new treaty. [Interruption.] I stand to be corrected, but I extradite people from the US. do not have any information that it has failed in that Historically, all requests by countries to extradite regard. people from the UK had to provide prima facie evidence. There are too many right hon. and hon. and learned Mr. Heath: I understand why the Secretary of State is Members present for me to have to explain this, but I trying to mix and match the Extradition Act 2003 and will do so for the record: prima facie evidence is evidence the precise terms of the US-UK treaty, but will he that if taken at face value would be enough to convict confirm that this House first had an opportunity to someone. This was a much stronger requirement than express opinion on the treaty on 15 December 2003? I some other nations demanded for UK extradition requests. was a member of the Committee that considered it, and The requirement was dropped for all EU member states, my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) signatories to the 1957 European convention on extradition and I voted against it; I was supported by my right hon. and other trusted international partners with mature and learned Friend the Member for North-East Fife judicial systems such as Canada, New Zealand and (Sir Menzies Campbell). We have consistently taken Australia. UK courts instead asked for “reasonable that view. When we brought the treaty back to the suspicion”—in other words, the same level of evidence House, we opposed it, but unfortunately it was supported required by the magistrates court to issue an arrest by a margin of 243 to 43. We Liberal Democrats have warrant in the UK. continuously and consistently opposed this treaty. We Following the introduction of the 2003 Act, the relaxation have done so because we believe that it is one-sided, that of the evidence requirement was extended to cover it is wrong to have this sort of negotiated treaty with the other trusted extradition partners including, but not 51 jurisdictions of the United States, each of whose limited to, the US. That is hugely significant, because it judicial systems have widely different terms, and that in means that the UK and the US now demand of each its effect it is unfair to British citizens. We cannot other essentially the same level of evidence. The imbalance believe that the British Government adopted a position was prior to the change, not after it. of such supine acquiescence as not only to agree it in the first place, but then to implement it long before the United States Senate itself had got around to ratifying it. Mr. Burrowes: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Alan Johnson: Well, I am allowed to mix and match in Alan Johnson: No, I will take an intervention later. that way on a motion that is headed “US-UK extradition The US and the UK have different legal systems. I am treaty”, the terms of which talk about looking at the sure that there are no hon. Members who think that we Extradition Act 2003. I accept that the hon. Gentleman could put the two legal systems together and—hey has been consistent; he has not been right on these presto!—get similar definitions. However, what we ask issues, but he has certainly been consistently wrong. for in demonstrating reasonable suspicion is as follows: the Mr. Grieve: A moment ago, the Secretary of State “circumstances of the case being such that a reasonable man”— said that my suggestion that we should widen the this language is not gender-friendly— examination to the 2003 Act was wrong, but he is now “acting without passion or prejudice would fairly have suspected admitting that it is correct. Is not the point that ultimately the person of having committed the offence”. everything, including the treaty and the European arrest warrant, is governed by the terms of the 2003 Act, and That is what we in this country apply. the 2003 Act is deficient? There is no point in blaming The US asks in its legal terminology for “probable the United States, and we certainly do not seek to do so, cause”—this dates back to the constitution, so it has 331 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 332 always been the case and was not developed as part of Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): Given that the Home the treaty—which is defined as Secretary appears to have received different legal advice “facts and circumstances which are sufficient to warrant a prudent from that clearly stated in another place by a Government person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is Law Officer, will he now place his new legal advice in about to commit a crime”. the Library, so that we can all look at it? Those two definitions are about as close as they can be in any two different legal systems. Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) reminds me that this is even Mr. Burrowes: The Home Secretary has been consistent worse; Baroness Scotland was not a legal officer when in seeking to rebut the argument that there is imbalance she made that announcement, but a Home Office Minister. and that the 2003 Act is lopsided, but does he accept the It is assumed that the fact that more people have been words of the Attorney-General, Baroness Scotland, extradited to the US from the UK than the other way during the passage of the 2003 Act? She explicitly said: round somehow indicates an imbalance—the hon. Member “when we make extradition requests to the United States we shall for Epsom and Ewell did not use that in his argument, need to submit sufficient evidence to establish ‘probable cause’. but the most common argument used against the treaty That is a lower test than prima facie but a higher threshold than deals first with reciprocity and secondly with that fact, we ask of the United States”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, rather than simply telling us that more people flee the 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1063.] US for the UK than the other way round. It is the She was clear that it is imbalanced; why is the Home case that between 2001 and 2008, about 30 people Secretary not? were extradited to the UK, compared with around 60 being extradited to the US. Since 2007, however, we Alan Johnson: The advice that I am working on have extradited more people from the US than vice comes from the Attorney-General. She was, of course, versa, and many of the people extradited since the 2003 absolutely right that it is a lower test than prima facie, Act came into force have committed serious offences—those as there is a lower test now for signatories to the are the “low-profile cases” that I mentioned earlier. European convention and for Australia, New Zealand Members of this House may recall the successful and Canada. There is no argument to turn the clock extradition from the US of Mark and Sean Gorman, back and to use that as a reason why we should review who were wanted in this country for a savage hammer the 2003 Act. attack that left a man with permanent brain damage. They were apprehended in New York, subsequently Sir Menzies Campbell: The Home Secretary has not extradited and are now serving seven years and five dealt with the point raised by the hon. Member for years respectively for their horrific crime. Another low- Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes). Does he accept that profile case was that of Calvin Berry, who was extradited Baroness Scotland said this in the other place: from the US and jailed for 10 years for the manslaughter “That is a lower test than prima facie but a higher threshold and robbery of a teenage girl. Hon. Members may also than we ask of the United States, and I make no secret of that.”? be interested to know that since 2004, 10 people have That was her opinion then. Does he still understand it been extradited from the US on suspicion of murder, to be her opinion now? manslaughter or attempted murder, six have been extradited for sexual offences, including one case of gross indecency Alan Johnson: I have pointed out the definition of with a child, and two have been extradited for kidnap these two terms in UK law and US law. I accept that I and child abduction. So there is no question of this am not a lawyer or a barrister, but it seems to me that being one-way traffic. those two definitions are as close as we can get in two Let us move on to the high profile cases that the different systems. Opposition say are bringing the 2003 Act into disrepute. The motion, for understandable reasons, does not Kate Hoey: The Home Secretary is a very down-to-earth, specifically mention which cases those are, but one of reasonable and sensible person with common sense. them, as we have discussed, must be that of the so-called Does he not accept that, whatever he might want to say NatWest three, whose extradition was vigorously opposed and whatever briefings he has been given about how by many Opposition Members. That was despite the simple this is and how similar these definitions are, the fact that there was “reasonable suspicion” of their reality is that to the ordinary lay person, including the involvement in a major case of fraud, which, in turn, Attorney-General, they are not the same? played a role in the Enron scandal that deprived 21,000 people of their jobs and many more of their Alan Johnson: Flattery gets my hon. Friend everywhere; pensions and life savings. I will allow her to intervene at any time. The first point I was at the Department of Trade and Industry at the to make is that this is not the issue in one of the time of the NatWest three marches and protests, so I high-profile cases, namely that of Gary McKinnon—I recall that, as in the other current case to which I shall come on to that. I am dealing with a specific point assume the motion refers, it was claimed that the NatWest that was the issue in another high-profile case: that of three should be tried on British soil. The High Court the NatWest three, which I shall also come on to shortly. was clear on this matter: the case had substantial As I am not legally trained—I am not a lawyer or a connections with the United States and could properly barrister; I am a hack politician—I can only go by the be tried there. It was claimed by those campaigning advice that I receive from lawyers in the Attorney-General’s against extradition that the NatWest three would be Department as to what these two definitions mean. I denied bail and would spend two years in a maximum- think that I am digging myself into quite enough trouble security prison—they were, in fact, granted bail and the with the legal profession. trial was delayed only at their instigation. When it was 333 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 334

[Alan Johnson] the possibility that any extradition case could be influenced for political reasons or determined on the basis of tried in November 2007, they pleaded guilty to fraud prejudicial influences. and were each sentenced to 37 months. Following short periods spent in US prisons, they are now serving the Mr. Grieve: Will the Home Secretary give way? remainder of their sentences in the UK. I understand Alan Johnson: I am going to make progress. On the how the public become involved in high-profile cases, question of prosecution, as I made clear to the House, but it is difficult to understand how cases are not only the Director of Public Prosecutions can make such reported so accurately when they go from being high a decision, and that includes deciding in which country profile to low profile and how the actual experience of the prosecution should be brought. In practice, under the NatWest three can be left completely out of the the 2003 Act, the extradition process works as follows. argument now raging about Gary McKinnon. First, the case for extradition is submitted to the Home Office by prosecutors from another country and is then Sir Menzies Campbell: If the Home Secretary is interested referred to the magistrates court. The magistrates court in the experience of the NatWest three, who include must consider whether there are grounds for the issuing Mr. Gary Mulgrew, he should consult his fellow Labour of an arrest warrant—and whether there are any “barriers”, party member, Mrs. Trish Godman, who is an MSP and as they are termed, to it—which means that there must the mother of Mr. Mulgrew. I have kept in touch with be reasonable suspicion that the subject in question has her, as I did with Mr. Mulgrew during his imprisonment. committed the offence. An arrest warrant is then issued She has made it clear, as indeed has he, that such was to the police following that procedure, if no barriers the nature of the prosecution and the implied threat were found—no barriers were found in the case of Gary behind it that he was compelled to accept a plea bargain— McKinnon. The case is then heard in the magistrates that is not unusual in the United States, where prosecutors court, and the court must decide whether or not there traditionally load the prosecution in the hope of are any grounds that bar the extradition—for example, encouraging accused persons to try to do the best they whether the individual in question has already been can by offering a plea to a reduced charge. If the right tried and cleared of the offence for which they are to be hon. Gentleman is anxious to deal with that matter, he extradited, which is known as double jeopardy, or whether should be more aware of the circumstances before he the extradition would be a breach of that person’s seeks to draw inferences from it. human rights under human rights legislation, which Opposition Members seem to find so difficult at times. Alan Johnson: I am sorry, but I do not take it from Once the court is satisfied that there are no grounds that intervention that Mr. Mulgrew was innocent. I take that bar extradition, the case comes to the Home Office things from the action of the courts and what has and the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary is then happened through the courts. Of course all kinds of legally obliged to order that person’s extradition, except people are involved emotionally in these incidents, but in three specific circumstances set out in law: where it is the majesty of the law must come above that. I am possible that the person who is to be extradited could be pointing out that for all the campaigning and hyperbola sentenced to death if convicted; where there are inadequate about the NatWest three, they were treated fairly in the arrangements in place in that country to prevent someone’s American courts and were brought back to serve their being also charged with an offence that was committed sentences in the UK, so I can hardly see how the case prior to extradition and not included in the request that brought the 2003 Act into disrepute—it might have led to their extradition; and where the person who is to brought a lot of other things into disrepute, but not the be extradited was previously extradited to the UK from 2003 Act. another country and that country has not consented to any further extradition. If none of these circumstances Joan Ryan (Enfield, North) (Lab): We rehearsed these apply, the Home Secretary must order extradition. debates endlessly at the time of the NatWest three Chris Grayling: Will the Home Secretary explain to extradition and it is right that the outcome of that case the House why three years ago, in primary legislation, is on the record. What seemed to be missed time and this Government gave the Home Secretary greater powers again in those debates is the fact that this extradition to intervene in such matters, but—up to this time—the treaty is about speedy justice and bringing people to Government have not implemented the provisions of justice. Ordinary lay people, to whom reference has that legislation? been made, understand that that is the imperative. Alan Johnson: No, I cannot explain that at this point, Alan Johnson: That was a blast of common sense, but I am learning all the time, and I will find out about which is not unusual from my right hon. Friend. that bit of the jigsaw puzzle. I am talking about the 2003 Act as it stands and the specific case that has such a The second case that the motion no doubt refers to is high profile at the moment. I am not seeking extra ongoing and is subject to judicial review—I should say powers, because I think that it is right that people are “reviews”, because there are two—so I shall not comment judged on the facts under the law, not on whether they on the detail, but I wish to set out clearly for the House happen to be popular or a newspaper takes up their and, in particular, for the benefit of my hon. Friend the campaign. It is important that we ensure that all people Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), how the process are treated fairly before the law. works. The 2003 Act places the vast majority of matters relating to extradition procedures in the hands of the Mr. Burrowes: The Home Secretary mentioned my judiciary and deliberately limits the role or influence constituent, Gary McKinnon. Is it not the case that the that politicians or others could bring to bear on extradition public loses confidence when the doors of No. 10 are cases. That is important and right, because it removes flung open for petitions to be accepted and tears of 335 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 336 concern to be shed for his plight, but at the same time Opposition successfully pressed for the insertion of the Government and the Home Secretary have shut the provisions that would force the Government to commence door on considering his vulnerability—he has Asperger’s proceedings on a bar to extradition, if a resolution to syndrome—and the widespread concerns about his case? that effect had been passed by both Houses of Parliament. The Home Secretary has himself accepted the need for I think that the system is fair. There can be no doubt proper consideration when a significant part of an that the 2003 Act has been beneficial in enabling the offence was committed in this country and where the UK legal system to bring to account criminals who have interests of justice may be served best by the case being either committed grave harm to individuals or threatened heard here— the interests of this country. It also enables us to fulfil our international obligations more expediently. In doing Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the Home Secretary so, it provides greater safeguards and greater clarity to answers that question, I just say to the House that he those subject to extradition proceedings. I commend has been on his feet for some 32 minutes. That is quite a the amendment to the House. long time, and he obviously has more to say. It is not his fault that he has been on his feet so long: it is because he has taken so many interventions, which obviously stimulate 2.45 pm the debate and need to be made. I just hope that he is Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I welcome the Opposition’s conscious of the time, because it is passing quickly and motion on the Extradition Act 2003. This is a timely many hon. Members still seek to catch my eye. and important debate. Every few months, an extradition case hits the headlines, including most recently the case Alan Johnson: I understand that the hon. Member for of Gary McKinnon, which is still sub judice while Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) is intimately involved judicial review proceeds. Before that, as the Home Secretary in his constituent’s case, but I assure him that the and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for safeguards are in the 2003 Act. I have no problem with North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) have pointed campaigns, whether by newspapers or others, because out, there were the NatWest three. These repeated causes that is a healthy part of our democracy, but we have to célèbres underline the problems with our extradition act in accordance with the law, which provides safeguards arrangements. They underline the injustice of the unequal in this case. We have gone through the process whereby treaty that we have signed with the United States, and the magistrates court has decided that there are no they will go on and on until that treaty is amended to reasons and has sent the case to the Home Secretary. I put American and British citizens on an equal footing. have three specific points to judge such cases on, none I am astonished by the Home Secretary’s new doctrine, of which applied in this case. which no previous Minister has advanced—perhaps we The individual can then appeal against the decision could call it the Johnson doctrine—that there is an of the magistrates court and the Home Secretary in the equality of treatment. In the past, Ministers have confessed High Court. If their appeal fails, they can appeal it in that there is no equality of treatment, but they have the other place. If that fails, there is then a legal duty on justified that on other grounds. The reality is—this is the UK Government to extradite the individual within the key point, which the Home Secretary confirmed—that 28 days. But within that time, the person in question can we have to show fact if we want to extradite from the also refer their case to the European Court of Human US, and that is not the case for the other way around. Rights, which will look at whether the extradition would For any Government to agree that our citizens should breach that person’s human rights. If the court rules be treated as second-class citizens is an outrage and that an extradition would not breach their rights, the demands correction. UK is legally obliged to continue with the extradition. That is why the Conservative motion does not go far So there are safeguards at every single stage. enough. It calls for a review of the Extradition Act Following these failed appeals, only if powerful and 2003, without signalling the problems and highlighting compelling evidence comes to light that demonstrates the unjust arrangements contained in the US-UK clearly that the extradition would breach our obligations extradition treaty. The Extradition Act has good and under the European convention on human rights—for bad parts. Let me start with the good. We like its example, a life-threatening illness—can the Home Secretary enabling of the European arrest warrant, a sensible halt the extradition. In doing so, he or she must apply measure for the easyJet age, that has brought back more strict legal tests to determine whether the new information than 300 dangerous criminals—including rapists, murderers, about the subject’s mental or physical health would paedophiles and drug runners—to face British justice. mean that their human rights would be breached should That, sadly, is what the Conservatives seem to dislike: the extradition continue. If the case does not meet that because the EAW is European, they oppose it even test, they cannot halt the extradition, although their though it tackles crime and locks up dangerous people. decision not to do so can be challenged in the courts. Judge parties by what they do, not what they say. Before I move to what might laughably be called a Exactly the same applies to the Conservatives’ decision peroration, I assume that the hon. Member for Epsom to withdraw from the European People’s party. If the and Ewell was referring to the forum bar to extradition Conservatives cared more about gay rights or action that the Opposition wish to introduce. That is not a against climate change, they would hardly have leapt power for the Home Secretary to intervene, but for the into bed with parties that oppose those things. court to intervene. Even if the case for a forum bar is accepted, there is an existing mechanism by which the Mr. Grieve: I do not think that that is the high point Opposition can seek to introduce forum as a bar to of the hon. Gentleman’s argument. I am on record, as extradition without the need for any amendment. During are others in my party, as saying that in many cases the the passage of the Police and Justice Act 2006, the European arrest warrant works much better than our 337 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 338

[Mr. Grieve] Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point, and I have a certain amount of sympathy extradition agreement with the US. There are, however, with it. I would merely go back to the point that I was some challenging areas in connection with the EAW, making in my exchange with the hon. and learned because it also applies to countries where the state of Member for Beaconsfield, which was that this is a the justice system has been criticised by the Council of process, not a snapshot. It is a process by which we hope Europe. We cannot just ignore the fact that the way in not merely to entrench the democratic values and which the EAW works can lead, and has led, to anxieties democracies in central and eastern Europe and other being expressed about whether individuals are being member states that have not had the benefit of our extradited under it for very slight cause, in circumstances traditions for quite as long as we have, but also to that may be unreasonable. entrench their commitment to the rule of law and to fair standards of justice. That process, it seems to me, is one Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the hon. and learned of which we can avail ourselves. Gentleman for that point. I was hoping that he would make a full tribute at the Dispatch Box to his colleague, Mr. Shepherd: Within the grand sweep of words that Edward McMillan-Scott, for the service that he has the hon. Gentleman just used lies the poor British performed for the Conservative party over the years. citizen who might be stuck in prison for six months Sadly, the hon. and learned Gentleman did not do so. I while a trumped-up or inadequate case is explored and regret that. On his substantive point, however, let us be investigated in another jurisdiction’s domain. That was clear that there are within the justice and home affairs at the heart of it. It is our concern for the British citizen chapters of the treaties very substantial ways in which that is central to these arguments. member states can raise their concerns about other member states’ justice systems, if that is required. Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman has a point. I said Let us also remember that every member of the that I was sympathetic on that point, and I certainly European Union that is subject to the European arrest think that there are examples—not just of British citizens, warrant is also a signatory of the European convention as the case of Dr. Tobin involved an Australian national on human rights, and, by the way—I should explain for who happened to be arrested at a British airport—of the benefit of the hon. and learned Gentleman’s party—is cases in which we should stand up against such injustices. also prepared to have the European convention applied We should continue to do so. in their domestic law. His proposals to fail to do that The objectionable part of the Extradition Act was would be an astonishing break with what is happening the ability to shoehorn through this place a treaty with elsewhere. The points that he is raising are therefore the United States that was never scrutinised here, never much less significant than the enormous benefits that voted on, and would never have received this House’s we have derived from the European arrest warrant. approval if its unequal provisions had been made clear, I have raised issues myself. For example, I did not but was introduced through the royal prerogative. We approve of the German application to extradite Dr. Toben have therefore tabled an amendment calling for the for the crime of holocaust denial, which we do not US-UK extradition treaty to be placed recognise in British justice. I merely point out to the “on a basis of full reciprocity”. hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) That is in line with our opposition to the initial ratification that other member states—such as Belgium—have decided of the treaty in 2003. The amendment has not been that there is room for interpretation on this. The European selected, but it is on the Order Paper for everyone to see. arrest warrant is a perfectly workable instrument as it is, and although it should perhaps be improved it has We take particular issue with section 69 of the Extradition certainly done an enormous amount to help crack Act, because it designates category 2 countries, and the down on crime in this country and to help crack down statutory instruments that gave the US-UK treaty effect on the old costa del crime. I am astonished that the stem from it. The treaty, as I have already mentioned, Conservative party, which was once known as the party was sneaked in by the Government without debate or of law and order, should have become so obsessed with consultation. Even the text of the treaty was a closely its Europhobia as to turn its face against this very guarded secret, for it was not made public until May sensible set of measures—[Interruption.] I am glad to 2003—two months after its initial signing, when MPs see that I have some support from the right hon. Member were leaving for the Whitsun recess. The manner of the for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), who, sadly, is on treaty’s approval and implementation illustrates abundantly the Back Benches and no longer speaks for his party on the disregard that the Executive has for this legislature. these matters. There are few better examples of this place being found on its knees, prostrate before Government power. Mr. Shepherd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but I could not let pass that reference to Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Can the what was a highly contentious piece of legislation because hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Liberal Democrats at the heart of it was a mutual recognition of the legal have ever used one of their Supply days to debate the systems of other countries. There were big queries treaty in the terms that he has described and call for the about the role of investigating justices who can hold changes to it that he wants? British citizens in prison for many months in Italy—Greece was another nation suspected of this—without proof Chris Huhne: I hope that that is an offer from the or clear evidential reasons for doing so. Mutual recognition Labour Benches to increase the number of Liberal of the quality of the legal system was central to the Democrat Supply days. I will take the right hon. Gentleman arguments that took place during the debate on this up on that, and I look forward to his joining us on subject. delegations to the Leader of the House to press that 339 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 340 point. We use many ways of making our opposition and a satellite and, frankly, I find it astonishing that any clear; my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for British Government should have agreed to it. I am at a North-East Fife, in particular, has been extremely active loss to know why David Blunkett, who was then the in this regard. Indeed, in one occasion he even appeared Home Secretary, bound the UK to an arrangement— before a Committee of which he was not a member in order to make our opposition clear. I do not think that Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is a minor point, but anybody can be in any doubt. At least the right hon. the hon. Gentleman is supposed to refer to Members of Friend of the right hon. Member for Rotherham this House by their constituencies, not by their names. (Mr. MacShane), the Home Secretary, has paid tribute to our consistency, although sadly he has not yet been Chris Huhne: The then Home Secretary, the right persuaded of the fact that we are right. hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett), agreed and bound the UK to an arrangement that lacks Mr. Shepherd: To be traduced in such a way by that reciprocity and places higher burdens on UK requests former Minister for Europe—the right hon. Member than on those from the US. What was the justification? for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane)—is outrageous. Of We have not seen any here. What was the purpose? course we are missing the essential debates on these Perhaps a more fitting question is, “What was the matters. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) incentive?” There has been no clear answer—except for is right to have mentioned the treaty provisions in 2003, the rather novel doctrine that denies the existence of the discussions on which took place during the passage any imbalance. I note, however, that in expressing that of the Police and Justice Bill of the 2005-06 Session. view, the Home Secretary signally failed to make a That was when that matter was thoroughly thrashed commitment to place his legal advice in the Library of out. That was when the Liberal Democrats led, with the House, although I challenged him to do so. Conservatives, in the Lords to bring down that unequal Let us be clear about what the treaty does. Article 8 treaty. That is fully on the record. The Home Secretary removes the requirement for the US to provide prima says that something has been added to the 2003 legislation, facie evidence when requesting extradition from the and does not acknowledge the fierceness of the debates UK, yet article 8, section 3, subsection (c) still requires when rough equivalence, and so on, appeared. He should the UK authorities to provide the US with “a reasonable get his people in the Box to do some work. basis to believe” that the US national whom they are seeking to extradite committed the offence. The key Chris Huhne: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s point is precisely the one that the Home Secretary made support on that point. What is most startling is the fact about facts: it is simply ludicrous that this Government that the Labour Government signed away one of our are prepared to afford our American counterparts greater basic freedoms—the right to a fair trial—with that protection than they do our own citizens. unbalanced agreement. The fact that we signed the treaty unilaterally is more evidence of its lopsided nature In the past, of course, the Government have said that and the Blair Government’s blind faith in, and service the Americans have the small matter of their own to, the United States. Although our Government were constitution, which insists on probable cause and constrains eager to shackle themselves to the document, the United what they can do. Quite. The US constitution is one of States did not even bother to ratify the US-UK extradition the finest pieces of liberal drafting in legal history. US treaty until 2006, even though for three years we were citizens have enormous advantages over British citizens applying its provisions. in the guarantees of freedoms and the checks and balances on arbitrary state power that the US constitution Sir Menzies Campbell: Is my hon. Friend aware that affords, but that is not an argument for ditching our the reason for that was that the Irish lobby in the safeguards, weak and feeble though they are in comparison. United States was able to exercise such pressure over the It is surely an argument that Ministers should have Senate that it declined to ratify, on the grounds that taken even more care to defend UK citizens’ rights, suspected Irish terrorists might be extradited to the precisely because we do not benefit from a written United Kingdom to face prosecution? constitution. This is a practical and a moral issue. Even when it Chris Huhne: I am aware of that; I am grateful to my comes to extradition to a state where the death penalty right hon. and learned Friend for making that point. exists, we did not see fit to impose an absolute refusal on our duty to extradite—even to Texas, where the Mr. Grieve: The point has been made about the death penalty is rife, or, in the past, to Illinois, where a nature of reciprocity. The hon. Gentleman might also retiring governor was so distraught by the evidence that be aware that under the terms of the US-UK extradition he had sent so many innocent men to execution that he agreement, in the United States the definition of the pardoned everyone on death row. political offence is left to the executive branch to determine, whereas in this country it is determined by the judiciary. Alan Johnson rose— The hon. Gentleman might think that that raises some continuing concerns about how that might be applied in Chris Huhne: Even faced with those appalling examples practice. of an affront to the settled will of this House that we will not contemplate the death penalty, we still allow Chris Huhne: The hon. and learned Gentleman makes extradition to American states that carry out that another point about the unbalanced nature of the treaty. objectionable practice; the treaty merely says that we I say advisedly that it is an unequal treaty, and I am “may refuse”. I suspect that the Home Secretary wanted taking account of the historical context. It is the sort of to intervene to make that point, so I shall let him go treaty that one normally sees between an imperial power ahead. 341 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 342

Alan Johnson: Extradition is barred if there is a risk 3.5 pm that the death penalty may be carried out. That is what the treaty says. Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). I am not a recent convert to the cause of Gary Chris Huhne: My understanding is that the treaty McKinnon: he is my constituent and I have been says that we “may” refuse. campaigning for him for three years. I welcome the support for Gary McKinnon from the Liberal Democrats Once extradited, British citizens are unlikely to receive and Members of other parties. Mr. McKinnon’s case bail while they wait for trial because they are seen as a brings into sharp relief the problems caused by the flight risk, which means that they can spend a substantial operation of the Extradition Act 2003 and the treaty. period pre-trial in prison. I am also informed that many I shall respect Mr. Speaker’s direction and not base of those extradited will come under extraordinary pressure my remarks wholly on the case of Gary McKinnon. to plead guilty to minor charges in order to escape a However, it is important to recognise that Mr. Speaker’s long trial and extended pre-trial detention on major direction on sub judice matters relates to the challenge charges. Where is the justice in that? Where are the to the DPP’s decision not to prosecute, as opposed to protections for our citizens? If the Home Secretary the challenge to the decision on whether the Home regards that practice as fair in a system of justice, why Secretary should have taken account of Mr. McKinnon’s have he and his predecessors refused to introduce it in condition of Asperger’s syndrome, which on its own the British justice? It seems to me that he has a real case to House would have been free to debate fully. answer. I was worried to hear the Home Secretary trying to Given all the evidence against the fairness and equality pick and mix justifications for the operation of the of the treaty and the motion that we are debating here extradition treaty. We thought that we had moved on today, it is perhaps surprising that the Conservatives did from a Home Secretary who trumpets the Government’s not oppose the treaty at the time. We did not receive terrorism-fighting credentials and focuses only on terrorists support from the Conservatives when we attempted to whom we all want to be prosecuted and extradited. We secure the withdrawal of the name of the US from the thought that we had moved on from a Home Secretary offending statutory instrument in the other place in who only talks about fighting on behalf of the innocent. December 2003. Instead, the Conservatives put their What we are all concerned about is justice—justice for the innocent and for the guilty. That is as important for “trust in the judicial system of our closest ally”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1068.], Gary McKinnon, who has not sought to hide his guilt, as for anyone else. We are concerned about proper due largely abstaining in the votes both in the other place process. and in this House, with some honourable exceptions One would have thought that the Home Secretary among their Back Benchers. I can only assume that the had learned from his predecessors’ mistakes. One of Conservatives no longer have such trust in our ally, them—the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside given what they have been saying about certain cases in (Mr. Blunkett)—has come on board and acknowledged recent weeks. What we have here smacks just a little of the deficiencies of the 2003 Act, of which he was very Conservative opportunism. Because the Daily Mail has, much an architect, as it affects Gary McKinnon. During quite rightly, taken up case of Gary McKinnon—I pay the passage of the Bill in 2003, no one in his right mind tribute to that newspaper’s campaigning zeal—the would have used as the centrepiece of his argument the Conservative Front Benchers have snapped to attention. case of Gary McKinnon—someone who has the severe General Dacre’s wish is Lieutenant’s Grayling’s command. autistic condition of Asperger’s syndrome and is now The Liberal Democrats have consistently opposed the subject of this unbalanced process. the extradition arrangements with America. We spoke I do not propose to go into the details of Gary and voted against the orders implementing our end of McKinnon’s case today; nor will I attempt to defend his the treaty in December 2003. In 2006 we tabled a Bill to actions—I doubt that any hon. Member would do so. restore the need for prime facie evidence to be provided What I want to do is defend Mr. McKinnon’s right to by US authorities when requesting extradition. More justice and that of others who become victims of the recently, we made a pledge in our freedom Bill to ensure 2003 Act and the treaty. The Home Secretary talked that the treaty is redrafted immediately. We did all that about causes célèbres, but Gary McKinnon is the last because we believe the Extradition Act 2003 is manifestly person whom one would promote as a cause célèbre. He unfair to British citizens and those who have been shuns publicity in many ways: his condition makes him caught up by the treaty, such as Gary McKinnon. introverted and he shies away from communicating. He The Government need to renegotiate the treaty needs others to speak up on his behalf. I am pleased to immediately and make the extradition test reciprocal. do that as his Member of Parliament, and others have They should also introduce proper parliamentary scrutiny also done so. I commend the Daily Mail for the momentum of treaties and amend the royal prerogative so that such it has given to the campaign. an arrangement can no longer be entered into without It is important to recognise that this is a matter of meaningful reference to Parliament. That is the least justice. I have an interest in having practised as a they can do. We will back the Conservative motion criminal solicitor for 11 years. I and others who have today, even though we would prefer more detail and practised in the justice system recognise that although it more commitment. We welcome damascene conversions is not perfect, it is marked by an historical determination to good causes, and we only hope that our new allies in to provide fair trial for defendants. Whatever we think this matter are not fair-weather friends of the freedoms of them as individuals, or whatever the community or that British citizens should enjoy. any state thinks of them, they all have a right to a fair 343 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 344 trial. Regrettably, those who do not fit in with the On the issue of the interests of justice, such a provision system—those who are vulnerable or mentally ill, or would allow the court properly to consider the applicant who have special needs—often cannot get justice, although before them. In the case of Gary McKinnon or others they deserve it as much as anyone else. like him, it could consider the fact that the applicant The Home Secretary talked about safeguards. Those was severely autistic, and could consider the implications safeguards are plainly not in place. Whether we are of that, not only for the defendant’s understanding of dealing with one case or a number of cases, and whether the crime that they are alleged to have committed, but we call them high profile or low profile, there needs to particularly with regard to the impact of the extradition be justice and appropriate safeguards for all. That was process, the impact of the process taking place in another not the case for Gary McKinnon, who was diagnosed place such as the United States, and the impact of the late with Asperger’s syndrome, and it is not the case for sentence. The sentence would have a profound effect on anyone else like him who has symptoms of compulsive people such as Gary McKinnon, particularly given the behaviour, not communicating well, and not seeking to length of sentence proposed; it is judged that it could be make the case for themselves. up to 60 years. The provision would also allow bail to be considered carefully. Mr. MacShane: The hon. Gentleman is making a The example was given of the NatWest three, but that moving plea on his constituent’s behalf. He says that his was an exceptional case, and should not be brought constituent was diagnosed late; when was that diagnosis forward as a precedent—certainly not as regards bail—when made? we are talking about cases such as that of Gary McKinnon, who is penniless. The question of adequate representation Mr. Burrowes: It was made in August 2008. Decisions would be a key factor in America. Also, the question of on Gary McKinnon and others in his position are whether there was confidence that the defendant would subject to the Secretary of State’s discretion and to the get bail, rather than be in custody before trial, perhaps European convention on human rights. It is for the for two years, would be relevant if we considered forum Secretary of State to determine whether that discretion properly in this country. should be applied in the case of those with Gary The same is true of consideration of repatriation McKinnon’s condition. It has been argued that it should after sentence. Again, we heard the example of the be applied in Gary McKinnon’s case, as in others, but NatWest three, in which repatriation took place after the Secretary of State has chosen to ignore that. Although conviction. However, in the case of Gary McKinnon, there have been concerns expressed by No. 10, it has there has been no assurance that that would happen, chosen to ignore Gary McKinnon’s particular condition. despite the fact that other countries have agreements The McKinnon case and others show the problems with the United States on that subject. The Netherlands that occur when there is a challenge of the process. and Israel have, on behalf of all their citizens, come to Gary McKinnon and others are left to look to the an agreement, whereby their Home Secretaries would Home Secretary or the Director of Public Prosecutions give a specific assurance before extradition that, on for relief. The Home Secretary is saying, “I don’t have to conviction, the person would be repatriated to serve consider forum, because that is a matter for the Director their sentence in their country. Gary McKinnon does of Public Prosecutions”, and the DPP is saying, “We’ve not have the benefit of that assurance, and nor do other decided to cede jurisdiction to the United States.” That citizens of this country, because the Government have leaves any appellant, defendant, or whatever one calls not properly negotiated on behalf of their citizens to them, to challenge via judicial review a DPP decision allow for due process and justice. not to prosecute in this country, and to challenge the Prima facie evidence will not be considered; that Home Secretary’s decision, too—that is the case for point has already been debated today, and on other Gary McKinnon. As should be clear to the Home occasions. The Government ceded the part of the Secretary, that shows the plain need for forum to be Extradition Act 2003 that has that requirement in it—a properly determined. It should not be left to applicants requirement to provide sufficient evidence to make a to mount a campaign, find legal advice and representation, case. That requirement has been a fundamental principle and go through all the complicated procedures on the of our criminal justice system, but the Government judicial review route. It clearly shows the need for gave it away; the treaty makes a point of removing that proper consideration of forum, and the lack of requirement. That has had a crucial effect, but it would consideration of forum in the current process. in many ways be remedied by the forum position, because I pay tribute—as others have done, both previously consideration of forum would enable consideration of and today—to the work of the late Lord Kingsland, whether the offence or a significant part of the offence who will be sadly missed in the other place. Part of his had been committed in this country. Currently, in cases legacy is an amendment that he supported, together such as that of Gary McKinnon, prosecutors do not with Baroness Hanham, to the Policing and Crime Bill. have the evidence before them to enable them to come That amendment would deal with many of our concerns. to a judgment, because the United States has it for its Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the old schedule 13 to that Bill own purposes. The authorities in this country have only deal properly with two issues. The first is the issue of a partial picture on which to make a judgment. If the evidence and the conditions relating to whether a significant court had forum provisions, it could give proper part of the conduct alleged to constitute the extradition consideration to whether a significant part of the offences offence was conducted in the United Kingdom. The and the criminality took place in this country, and second issue relates to whether an extradition would be could then form a judgment. barred if, in view of all the circumstances, it would not My hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell be in the interests of justice for the person to be tried for (Chris Grayling) has given clear examples of other the offence in the requesting territory. cases of cyber-attacks that led to prosecutions in this 345 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 346

[Mr. Burrowes] 3.20 pm country—cases in which the evidence was before this Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I am country. There were the cases of Richard Pryce and sorry that he is not here, but I have to say that I was Mathew Bevan, which came before Bow Street magistrates deeply disappointed by the new Home Secretary’s court. Charges were laid under the Computer Misuse performance. I had thought that he was a man whose Act 1990, and Pryce was convicted. As we have heard, natural common sense would have led him to come to he received a £1,200 fine. In the case of Bevan, no the House with a recognition of the seriousness of the prosecution was brought forward in the public interest. issue before us. Instead, he flatly refused to accept that the Attorney-General had given advice that was wholly It is significant to hear what was said by Bevan: contrary to what he asserted again and again. He prayed in aid the fact that he was not very bright—that, because “I was bullied at school and I found my little community and interaction through my computer…The hackers would all egg he is not a lawyer, we ought to take his view of the law each other on. There wasn’t anything malicious about it. If there rather than that of the Law Officer herself. The Home was, I could have downed as many computer systems as I wanted. Secretary went on to say that the Attorney-General was I was just really looking for anything about UFOs.” anyway not a Law Officer when she gave the advice, but a Home Office Minister. It is not good enough for him That is a similar situation to that of Gary McKinnon. to come to the House and propose to begin his answer What is different is that Pryce—Bevan was not to a serious and polite debate in that way. prosecuted—was prosecuted in this country. That is not the case for Gary McKinnon. That is my first concern, but things got worse. Secondly, the Home Secretary went on to admit that he did not The cases of Andrew Harvey and Jordan Bradley have the key figures that he was asked for in connection involved the spread of a global worm, which had a with the numbers of people extradited from the US to significant impact on the United States and Britain. Britain, and the circumstances of each case. He had Harvey received a six-month sentence, which was later only the figures that suited his case: he had none of the reduced to two months, and Bradley received a three-month other figures for which he was asked. sentence. Significantly, in that case, there were conspirators in the United States. There was a direct connection with Thirdly, the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench spokesman those committing offences in the United States, but asked the Home Secretary to put his advice in the Harvey and Bradley were dealt with in this country. Library, and he did not even have the courtesy to reply. The spokesman had to intervene again, yet he still did Without those reforming provisions, we are left at the not get a response. Not only did the Home Secretary behest of America. I do not wish to criticise America; it come to the debate unprepared; he came believing that has managed to negotiate its part of the bargain. The hectoring and rudeness were suitable responses to what problem is that this country has not done so. We have is a serious issue for many people around the country. clearly ceded to America, and the Government need to own up to that. The Government amendment to the Fourthly, the Home Secretary was asked a direct motion suggests that the tests that are applied question about the implications of the extra powers that the Government had assumed, and he did not “are broadly equivalent given the differences between the legal know the answer. It seems to me that the right hon. systems in the two jurisdictions”. Gentleman must be moonlighting, because he did not prepare for a debate in this House about a serious issue That is certainly at odds with what the Attorney-General that many people have pressed repeatedly. said in debate on the Extradition Bill, as we have heard; I will not repeat her words. There is certainly a difference I know that the Liberal Democrats tend to tease between the Attorney-General’s recognising the imbalance people on matters like this, but they cannot tease me on in the extradition procedures and the Government’s this one. I have been concerned about it from the seeking to spin the line that the tests are broadly equivalent. beginning, as a result of my experience of the US That must change, in the interests of Gary McKinnon judicial system. I had a constituent who was an American and others, so that there is proper justice. citizen and who was on death row in Texas for more than 20 years. I went there to plead for his life, and I will I believe that in many ways the Home Office has a repeat what a senior law officer of the state of Texas split personality. A week or so ago, it launched its told me. He said, “Yourex-constituent may be innocent, cyber-strategy because it wanted to recruit computer but he is not a nice man and I don’t want him on my hackers who could be of use to the Government. Lord streets. That’s why he is going to be executed.” Those West talked about “naughty boys” and, although I am were the words not of some gash prosecution lawyer, not sure that Gary McKinnon would come under that but of an official of the Texas court. definition, perhaps the Government should employ him. That would be better than letting him go off to serve a Many of us are not happy with how the system works sentence in America, where he says that his prospects of in many American states. Of course it is true that this survival are dim. Government have interpreted the agreement to mean that they will not extradite people who might be subject I want to conclude by saying that I very much stand to the death penalty, but my example illustrates that the up for justice for Gary McKinnon, who has become a American system of justice is not the same as the one in victim of an unfair treaty. However, it is not just about this country—or, dare I say it, in the rest of the EU. We him: people before him have suffered, and others will in are governed by the European convention on human future. The Government must do more than just shed rights, so it is reasonable to say that people have a right tears when a petition arrives at No. 10. They must act to to be concerned when extradition to the US is raised as stop this extradition, and review this unfair Act. a possibility. 347 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 348

Mr. Grieve: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a members seek to operate together. In those circumstances, key source of anxiety about the US criminal justice it is not unreasonable to have a mechanism that shortens system is that it imposes very substantial penalties on the period needed for extraditing a person from one those who are found guilty? To people throughout the member country to another. I have no difficulty in European continent, they often appear to be utterly accepting that. I have been through the list and do not disproportionate to the offence that has been committed. see any cases that disturb me, except those where one country’s law is wholly different from another’s on a Mr. Gummer: I agree with my hon. and learned particular point. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Friend. That is one of the three things that I am Huhne) and others were right to draw attention, for concerned about. First, I am concerned about the concept example, to the question of holocaust denial. One can in many parts of the US that the real purpose of the law understand precisely why there is a law on it in Germany, is to get off the streets people with whom the law does but why there might not be somewhere else. That is a not hold. Secondly, I am concerned that the punishment perfectly reasonable judgment to make, and we need to is therefore very often out of line with anything that we have a mechanism to overcome it, but in general there is in Europe would think acceptable. My third concern no problem with the European arrest warrant. That has has to do with the concept of plea bargaining. People in been proven by the period that has elapsed. What has Europe think that those who plead guilty are in fact not been proven is that there is no problem with the guilty, whereas in many cases they plead guilty merely British-American agreement, and I wish to end on that. because the alternative is very much more serious. Such The problem with the agreement is that it leads people people will have learned from their lawyers that, especially in Britain to believe that this country will do anything for those who are not American, to stand out is to risk that the United States asks, without being prepared to very long prison sentences indeed. stand up for its own people. I see complacent smiles on the faces of the Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism and his Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I was at a Parliamentary Private Secretary, but as far as British Home Affairs Committee meeting with my right hon. justice is concerned, it is not good enough for them not Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), to take seriously the fact that we are in this House above which is the reason why I have not been present for the all to defend the freedom of the people of Britain. I entire debate. want to ask the fundamental question: what were the Is there not a danger that the situation creates anti-US Government doing signing a treaty that was not feeling—a prejudice? Many people who would not otherwise reciprocated? On what possible basis could they have be, or have no reason to be, prejudiced against the done so? United States will now be rather anti-American for the I have real worries about the nature of the treaty reasons that we are debating. anyway, but it cannot be fair to sign a treaty when one side has a higher degree of proof requirement than the Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman has pre-stated other. I would rather take the tutored views of the noble what I was going to say. As somebody who is not Baroness Scotland than the admittedly untutored and—as anti-American but believes strongly in the relationship far as I understand it—largely unprepared views of the between Europe and United States, I do not want issues Home Secretary. I want also to say a word about the to get in the way which suggest that it is proper to refer European warrant. to the relationship as “imperial”—something that the hon. Member for Eastleigh, who spoke for the Liberal Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): Before the right Democrats, mentioned. We need to make it clear to the hon. Gentleman moves on, will he confirm something United States that we are partners not subjects. There is that he has just said? When the US was being considered a constant refrain. We are told, “America cannot do this for designation as a category 2 country for the Extradition because of the constitution”, but we have to do something. Act 2003, the Conservative spokesman in the House of The business about ratification is universal. America Lords said that his party had enough faith in the US still has not ratified the convention on international judicial system not to be worried about the unfair trade in endangered species, which it has signed. It has treatment that British citizens would face. Given what not done so because it does not think that partnership the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and learned requires reciprocity. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) have just said, I say to the Government that the reason why I feel so will he confirm that the Conservatives no longer agree passionately about the issue is not just that I want to with the view expressed in the other place? defend the human rights and freedom of my constituents and of the people of Britain, but that we need to bring Mr. Gummer: One of the joys of being on the Back it home to our American partners that they must treat Benches is that I did not have to agree with that view in the rest of the world as they expect the rest of the world the first place. I therefore do not have a problem, to treat them. Reciprocity is a serious issue, not one that although I would not have agreed with that remark even can be covered up by an argument between the Home if I had been on the Front Bench. However, there is a Secretary and the Attorney-General about the precise thing called learning, and it means that our practical details of what the wording under discussion means. experience of the Extradition Act leads us to say that it I finish where I began. As the Home Secretary is not needs to be looked at again. present, I hope that the Minister will take this point Before I finish, I want to say to my hon. Friend the back to him: the Home Secretary’s chatty, jokey little Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) that comments at the beginning of the debate demeaned this matter does relate to the European treaty. We him. He is the Home Secretary of the United Kingdom. belong to a Community—a Union that we support—whose He is not here to perform second-rate, school-debating 349 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 350

[Mr. Gummer] because this grave case has been given absolutely no national publicity. Last year, those two gentlemen were tricks on a serious matter that concerns people’s freedoms; convicted at Leeds Crown court of publishing anti-Semitic he is here to uphold the most ancient rights of a nation and racist material on the web, including pictures showing of which he is fortunate enough—for what will be a Jews being cruelly disfigured. There were up to 4,000 very short time—to be Home Secretary. hits a day. They also published a book called the “Tales of the Holohoax”—we get the sense of what they were 3.33 pm trying to argue—and they sent it to synagogues. Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): It is always The men were arrested, fairly tried and convicted, but a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Suffolk, they jumped bail and fled to the United States. In Los Coastal (Mr. Gummer), this time after his philippic Angeles, they claimed that they should be allowed to about schoolboy debating techniques. I remember as a stay in America under the provisions of the first amendment student at Oxford university attending perhaps my only to the US constitution which gives the absolute right to Oxford Union debate. The right hon. Gentleman came free speech. Had they been Americans and published in to represent the Conservative cause, as a former the material in America, they could not have been president of the Cambridge Union, and exactly the prosecuted. One of the big problems for those of us same vim, vigour, vivid metaphor and utter who campaign against anti-Semitism and racism on the wrongheadedness that we sometimes hear today were net is that the United States cannot take any control of on display all those years ago. the internet service providers. One paradox of the debate is that many of those who I am glad to say that, having examined the case and have spoken are convinced pro-Europeans, and part of heard the powerful plea that the men should be allowed the debate is about the application of international rule to stay in America under the provisions of American of law. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate law, the courts in Los Angeles said no. They said that (Mr. Burrowes) made for his constituent a very moving the men were British citizens who had committed a and compelling plea that does him and the cause honour. crime in Britain and should be sent back. Last Friday, The hon. Gentleman said that he spent many years as a Whittle and Sheppard were sent to jail—for three and solicitor practising in criminal law, and were I ever to four years respectively, I think. That was an important find myself in trouble I should be delighted, after that victory in the fight against anti-Semitism, but it could excellent speech, to have him defend me. not have been won without the willingness of the Americans to rise above their own constitution and free speech However, I was slightly alarmed when I heard that amendment and co-operate with us. the gentleman—who is not mentioned in the motion but about whom we are talking and the Daily Mail is There is the similar case of Mr. Hussain Osman, who campaigning—was diagnosed with his distressing condition was one of the gentlemen involved in the 7/7 outrages. only last year. One gets a slight hint of the famous He fled to Italy and asked to be defended from British Ernest Saunders defence: he said that he was suffering justice, which he said was unfair. The hon. Member for from Alzheimer’s to get off a criminal prosecution, but Eastleigh, who is not in his place, referred to the Council the moment that he was out of court, he somehow of Europe’s observations about the justice systems in skipped off and his memory came back with marvellous other countries. I serve on the Council of Europe and vigour. know something about it; its observations on aspects of It is quite important that we read into the record British justice and police procedures do not always article 94 of the treaty, on the death penalty. I was make pretty reading. We should look at motes and astonished that the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris beams before becoming contemptuous of the legal, Huhne) had not read the treaty. Article 94 states: judicial, police and investigating systems in other countries. “The Secretary of State must not order a person’s extradition…if I understand that the hon. and learned Member for he could be, will be or has been sentenced to death for the offence Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) now accepts the European concerned”. arrest warrant, although with many qualifications. He was not involved in the debates at the time, but when I Mr. Grieve: That is not the treaty, but the Extradition was Minister for Europe the Conservative party opposed Act 2003. They are two different things. the warrant tooth and nail—so did the Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph. If the newspapers opposed to Mr. MacShane: The hon. and learned Gentleman Europe, which are now legitimately campaigning for the should understand that treaty is law and law makes constituent of the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, treaty. The law of our country, as defined in Parliament, and the Conservative party had had their way, there is explicit on the point. would have been no European arrest warrant and Mr. Osman would still be protected in Rome by civil Mr. Grieve rose— liberties lawyers. We claim to be superior in all regards to all other Mr. MacShane: We do not have much time. I am countries, but let us not forget the case of Rachid concerned that we should not send a signal to all our Ramda. How many Members know who he was? He friends in America that one newspaper and one very was an Algerian Islamist living in London who was hard cause will overturn the need to speed up extraditions arrested as a financier of the Paris Metro bombings of between our two countries. 1995, which were a huge shock in France. There was A case comes to mind; it does not concern my clear evidence linking him to the attacks. For 10 years, constituents, thank goodness, but it is of great concern he was protected by our judges. The organisation Liberty in Yorkshire. It involves Simon Sheppard and Steve said, “He can’t go back to France. There is no justice Whittle. I doubt whether Members know those names, there—they’ll beat him up and bash him over the head.” 351 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 352

The lawyers made a fortune defending him. Whitehall In March 2003, while Parliament was discussing the defended him. The Conservative Home Secretary at the Extradition Act 2003, the then Home Secretary signed time, the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone a new extradition treaty between the United Kingdom and Hythe (Mr. Howard), accepted those arguments—so, and the United States. The treaty was subsequently I am sad to say, did a Labour Home Secretary, until my published as a Command Paper in May 2003, after the right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South legislation had been enacted. The most significant difference (Mr. Clarke) became Home Secretary and, in 2005, sent between the new treaty and its predecessor treaty, which him home. At last, after 10 years of being protected by was signed in 1972, lay in article 8 of the new treaty, the British legal system, he had to face his accusers, and which set out extradition procedures and required the families of the men who died thanks to the money documents. The previous treaty required an extradition that he was sending over to finance that terrorist plot. request to be accompanied by such evidence as would He is now serving a life sentence in prison. justify the person’s committal for trial according to the We need an internationalisation of the fight against law of the state from which extradition was sought, international criminality, whether it is terrorism, including evidence that the person requested was the paedophilia, race hate or money laundering. I could not person to whom the request warrant referred. believe the arguments we heard earlier—that the men For requests made by the United Kingdom to the who were responsible for destroying the lives of scores United States, the new treaty required such information of thousands of Americans in the Enron swindle were as would provide a reasonable basis for believing that just copping a plea, that they had no real involvement the person sought committed the offence for which and that they just pleaded guilty because it was a way of extradition was requested—“probable cause”. There is getting a slightly lower sentence. When are we going to no corresponding requirement for requests made by the understand that we need international law to deal with United States for extradition from the United Kingdom. the swindlers, fraudsters and banksters who are destroying The 2003 treaty between the UK and the US did not the lives of ordinary working people in America, in remove the need for the US to provide prima facie Europe and across the world? evidence at extradition hearings in the UK. That was We need, if anything, to extend and increase the idea achieved by the designation order made in this House of international arrest warrants and of rapid under the 2003 Act on 17 December 2003. Right up extraditions—no, not when the death penalty is at stake; until that order was made, designating what are called I fully accept and understand that. I would be happy if part 2 countries, there was a need for the US to provide the United States authorities could give some indication prima facie reasoning before the courts in this country. about the case of the constituent of the hon. Member When the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 2 for Enfield, Southgate, given that there is talk of a Territories) Order 2003 was debated in the House of 60-year sentence. We heard the same with the NatWest Lords on 16 December 2003, the then Home Office three, but in fact it was not that long. If he stays in this Minister, Baroness Scotland of Asthal, referred to the country, I will have no problem with that; we have intended effects of the designation orders being made children, and we defend them as best we can. under the 2003 Act: We must understand that every nation has different “Every country with which we currently have general extradition rules of law. There are different rules of law, evidence relations is being redesignated.” and court procedures in Scotland and in England, but She then turned to what she called that does not mean that we have to have extradition between our two countries. The House and the nation “the thorny issue of the United States”, needs to come to terms with the fact that the rule of law saying: no longer has a national flag stamped all over it. “If this order is approved, the United States will no longer be The message to the people of America is that the required to supply prima facie evidence to accompany extradition House of Commons, and above all the Conservative requests that it makes to the United Kingdom. This is in line with the new bilateral extradition treaty signed by my right honourable party, which has moved this motion, have nothing but friend the Home Secretary earlier this year. contempt for American law and the rights of the American people. If the American people feel that a grave crime By contrast, when we make extradition requests to the United States we shall need to submit sufficient evidence to establish has allegedly—I stress the word “allegedly”—been ‘probable cause’. That is a lower test than prima facie but a higher committed that threatens their national security, then threshold than we ask of the United States, and I make no secret we here, praying in aid the “civis Britannicus sum” of that. The fact is that under the terms of its constitution the arrogance of Palmerston in the 1860s, can stop justice United States of America cannot set its evidential standard any being done. The Conservatives have been cynical and lower than ‘probable cause’.” opportunistic in tabling this motion; the Liberal Democrats, She said of other countries: as ever, have been Liberal Democrats. “For all of these countries there is no change to the evidential standard which they will have to meet.”—[Official Report, House 3.42 pm of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1062-1063.] That is at the heart of what this is all about. There was Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I no requirement to drop the prima facie rule. It was an had not thought of the right hon. Member for Rotherham act of the Home Office—God knows why the Home (Mr. MacShane) as a Robespierre of liberty, but I Secretary was negotiating an extradition treaty when it would not look to him to protect me in the face of an is normally the function of the Foreign Office, but it extradition order in any other country. was nevertheless done. It was in the designation orders It is useful that the Home Secretary has come back at of December 2003 that we changed the whole process, this moment, because this all goes back to something which has given rise to indignation and a sense of that happened long before his time as Home Secretary. injustice. 353 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 354

[Mr. Richard Shepherd] The motion is not against Government policy—it would not undermine extradition to a friendly country that is All those matters were debated on 11 July 2006, when an ally, but it would give us an opportunity to review the Government suffered defeats in the House of Lords what has happened, so that cases such as Mr. McKinnon’s on the Police and Justice Act 2006. The Conservative can be tackled in this country. peer, the late and much lamented Lord Kingsland, I greatly admire the Home Secretary, who appeared successfully moved amendments that sought to remove before the Select Committee yesterday. When I put it to the United States from the designation order under the him that he had the power to intervene and halt 2003 Act listing of part 2 territories, which are those not Mr. McKinnon’s extradition, he said that he had no required to provide prima facie evidence when seeking a power to do that. I think that he has that power and person’s extradition from the UK, and to prevent the that, if he sought a different set of legal advisers, they Home Secretary from designating the US as such a would tell him that. Surely the Home Secretary can territory until reciprocal arrangements had been made exercise discretion in the public interest. Mr. McKinnon, in respect of the information and evidence required to who has already admitted to committing an offence, support an extradition request for a person who had should be tried in this country. I urge, even at this late not been convicted. The Government lost in the Lords stage, the Home Secretary or the Attorney-General to but set that right by a majority in the Commons. That is write to the Director of Public Prosecutions and ask at the heart of the debate and the justification for it, and that that happens. That is the sensible, pragmatic way in I plea with the Home Secretary to review properly the which to deal with the situation, and I hope that the workings of this dire mechanism. Government will take that course of action.

3.48 pm 3.52 pm Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I will be very brief, Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): In the time because I know that time is short. I begin with an available, I will try briefly to explain again to the Secretary apology. The Select Committee on Home Affairs met of State why the motion is sensible. I am grateful to the earlier, and my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) for North (Mr. Winnick) and I were there, so we missed indicating his support for it. part of the debate. I apologise to my hon. Friends who have made powerful I have only three quick things to say. On my way to contributions if I do not have time to dwell on each one the debate, I bumped into a previous Home Secretary, at length. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes), (Mr. Blunkett), and asked him whether I could quote who has so eloquently championed Mr. McKinnon’s what he had said to me about the time when he signed case. the treaty. He said that I could. He is on record as Hon. Members of all parties accept that it is desirable saying that when the treaty was signed we did not get for extradition to take place to maintain international the best deal, and that frankly the Americans got a justice. Some countries do not have it—apart from better deal than we did. That is why there is a difference under the European arrest warrant, France will not between the standard of proof required to get someone extradite its own nationals—but we have never adhered over from America and the standard of proof required to that principle, and we do not seek to advocate it. when the Americans are seeking to get someone from this country. In it is inevitable, given that extradition is a human process, that it may contain errors. It is for the Government, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate in setting out parameters, to try to ensure that those (Mr. Burrowes) for what he has done for his constituent. errors are minimised. In adopting the 2003 Act, the I appreciate that we are governed by the sub judice rule, Government moved fundamentally away from the previous though it was waived briefly for the purposes of the principle that there would be close scrutiny of each debate. I tried earlier to sign the early-day motion that extradition application, from wherever it came. Before the hon. Gentleman tabled about Mr. McKinnon, but it that, there was a need to show a prima facie case: the was withdrawn because it was out of order. evidence had to be rehearsed in court and the Home There is a time when the House and, indeed, the Secretary also had administrative powers to prevent public, should be listened to. Of course, some of us miscarriages of justice. I fully accept that, consequently, went along with the Government on 42 days, even many extraditions took far too long, and the Home though my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North Secretary has my sympathy, because that was an intolerable (Mr. Winnick) warned me that the meaning of the situation that needed rectifying. slightest word in a Select Committee report could be In adopting the 2003 Act, however, we have moved widened. He was right. In the discussions on the Gurkhas, far too far in the opposite direction. We have extradition the Government again lagged behind public opinion on reasonable suspicion, which is no more than a statement and certainly did not take the will of Parliament into of fact, on which it is sufficient to ground an offence. account, though as soon as Parliament expressed its That applies whether it is the United States or any other view in a vote, they changed their mind. category 1 or 2 countries. In this country, if a reasonable This is another occasion when the Government should suspicion is found not to exist, there is at least the listen, and I am therefore minded to support the motion. remedy that the police officer who came upon the It is a modest motion, which calls for a review of the unfounded suspicion can be prosecuted for false arrest Extradition Act 2003. It is important that we examine and malicious prosecution. No such protection exists it, now that it has existed for five years, measure what it once a person has been extradited. We effectively have has achieved and ascertain whether we can improve it. to take it on trust that the reasonable suspicion exists 355 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 356 elsewhere. That is why, to make the precise point, I told As an example, in the Morgan Crucible case, which the Home Secretary earlier that the problem goes way involves my constituent Ian Norris, the United States beyond the United States. In some ways, it is unfair to has sought extradition for an offence and failed, because pillory the United States Government, who have simply that offence does not constitute dual criminality, because taken advantage of the structures that we have put in it was not an offence at the time that it allegedly took place. Whether we are talking about that or, desirable as place. However, the United States is still seeking extradition I am sure many of its consequences have been, the on the related matter of obstruction of justice, when, as European arrest warrant, each has that underlying issue, the law currently stands, there appears to be no safeguard which merits being revisited. to ensure that, if a trial took place and he were convicted of that offence, he would not be sentenced for the We then have to turn to the particular problems that original offence. appear to exist in our treaty with the United States and in how it is operated. The point has been made quite Mr. Heath: I am most grateful to the hon. and forcefully that true reciprocity in the US-UK treaty learned Gentleman for giving way, and I will be very does not exist. In particular, it does not exist because of brief. Is not another factor that we ought to take into the differential standards. There may be good reasons account the fact that it was originally suggested that the why the Government had to go for those differential current treaty was a response to terrorism cases? The standards, but they cannot escape the fact that there are right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) safeguards for a United States national being extradited pretended again that it dealt only with grave cases, but to this country that do not exist in the opposite direction. in fact it applies to any case for which the maximum Secondly, we cannot escape the unfortunate fact, sentence is 12 months’ imprisonment. That includes a which has been touched on in these debates, that, although lot of cases that are not grave cases. nobody would question its desire for fairness, to ensure Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. that only the guilty are convicted, the United States However, I rather ignored the remarks that the right criminal justice system has some onerous aspects to it. hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) made, That is particularly true in relation to plea bargaining especially when he resorted to such cheap and revolting and the astonishing disparity of sentencing between statements about autism as to induce in me a revulsion those who have engaged in plea bargaining and those about what he was saying. who have not. That gives rise to genuine fears that justice may not be done, because people may be coerced I simply say this to the Minister. Anxieties on this into pleading guilty because they are so frightened of subject have been raised repeatedly in this House. That the consequences on conviction, which, particularly for is not some cheap polemic: those of us who are friends financial offences, most people on this side of the of the United States wish to see a system in place that Atlantic would consider to be dramatically disproportionate commands widespread acceptance. However, it really is to anything that would be inflicted in this country. time that the Government listened to the anxieties being expressed, particularly because mechanisms are available To take an example that does not concern extradition, to address the problems. An example is a provision Chantal McCorkle is a lady who received 24 years in introduced in the other place by my noble Friend Lord prison, which was subsequently reduced to 18, for a Kingsland—whose passing is much regretted and fraud on a matter that, if it had come to the courts in lamented—and other noble Lords that would allow this country, would have been unlikely to attract a forum to be considered. This would provide considerable sentence of more than three or four years in prison. The protection, but the Government have shown no inclination Government have a particular responsibility in that to put the provision on to the statute book, even though respect. the mechanism now exists for that to happen. Furthermore, Then there is the fact that the United States prosecutors a review could undoubtedly take place that might not have been remarkably creative in interpreting the new even require the renegotiation of the UK-US treaty, regime that is in place to expand their jurisdiction. We because I believe that our own national safeguards have discussed and debated the issue of forum. That is could be introduced without jeopardising it. because the United States prosecutors are now exercising Those are the issues that the Minister needs to address, an almost universal jurisdiction, particularly in the case and I have set out the sensible points that a sensible of offences that may concern the internet, where messages Parliament ought to be debating. Simply coming to the frequently go through servers around the world. That Dispatch Box and having a rant about this being a enables them to extradite people to the United States cheap matter does not help, because the issue is not for offences that one could argue were far more closely going to go away. Most people can apply their common connected with this country, yet where no decision in sense to matters of criminality. They feel a revulsion this country has been made for prosecution or, indeed, against it and a desire that it should be stopped, but where no complaint has even been made. they also want to see fairness. I have to say to the Home Secretary that, at the moment, there is a strong perception That must inevitably give rise to disquiet about the that we have created a system that might, on occasion, fact that under the new system individuals, where the be very unfair. It is our responsibility in this House to prosecutors have decided in this country that there is no try to do something about that. I commend our motion possible reason to proceed—and where, if they did to the House. proceed, those individuals would receive a rather light sentence—can be extradited to the United States, where they are likely to receive a sentence that is drastically 4.1 pm and dramatically different from that which they would The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism receive here. The Government cannot escape responsibility (Mr. David Hanson): We have had an interesting and on that. full debate this afternoon. It has been characterised by 357 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 358

[Mr. David Hanson] co-operation between the two countries to fight serious and organised crime, and terrorism. We need a treaty some strong views being expressed about the position of that is fair, balanced and effective, and I believe that we the Extradition Act 2003 and the position of several have one. individuals under that legislation. We have heard strong I do not believe that the suggestions that the treaty is speeches from the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal in some way unfair or unbalanced are true. We have (Mr. Gummer), from the hon. Member for Aldridge- looked at the two judicial systems and, as the Home Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) and, helpfully, from my Secretary has said, we have examined the evidence right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith test in both countries and—this relates to the point Vaz), all of whom put forward arguments in support of made by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills the motion. (Mr. Shepherd)—reached the conclusion that we need The judgment that my right hon. Friend the Home to look at how judicial systems that are different can be Secretary and I have had to make is whether we believe brought together in the best possible way. that the review of the Act requested in the Opposition motion is justified. The motion states that Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend give way? “the Extradition Act 2003 is being undermined by a series of high profile cases that are jeopardising confidence in the system”. Mr. Hanson: With all due respect, my right hon. My right hon. Friend and I have made the judgment Friend has not been in his place for the debate, and I that we do not believe that to be the case, and I will try have only a short time in which to respond. In the to illustrate our reasons for doing so. To support a interests of fairness, however, I will give way to him. review, we would have to say that we believed that public confidence was being jeopardised and that the Mr. Field: I am grateful. Does the Minister accept Act was being undermined. As my right hon. Friend that even those who will vote with the Government this has said, we believe that the Act is operating in a fair evening are disturbed because many of our constituents and effective way, providing modernisation of the feel that the relationship between us and the United extradition treaty between ourselves and the United States in respect of the operation of this treaty is unfair States, and undertaking a valuable function for our to people in this country? community. Mr. Hanson: If my right hon. Friend had attended The treaty came into force, following the Act, on the debate, he would have heard the Home Secretary say 26 April 2007. It defines clearly the extradition offence strongly that we believe that we are trying, as far as we by way of a sentence threshold of 12 months in both can with two different judicial systems, to ensure that states, and organises extraditable offences as those that we have parity. are punishable by a year or more in prison in both UK prosecutors are required to demonstrate “probable states. I say to the hon. Member for Somerton and cause” in the UK courts. This is a requirement of the Frome (Mr. Heath) that these measures were not devised US Bill of Rights. In American law, this is described as by the Government following the events in New York “facts and circumstances which are sufficient to warrant a on 11 September 2001. They were examined prior to prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is those events as part of the modernisation of the treaty. committing, or is about to commit a crime”. Indeed, the US-UK extradition treaty was signed, subject Similarly, US prosecutors are required to demonstrate to ratification, on 31 March. The text of the treaty was “reasonable suspicion” in the UK courts. As the Home published and laid before Parliament under the Ponsonby Secretary said earlier, this has been defined in UK case rule, which allowed for an explanatory memorandum to law in the following terms: that the be produced between 21 May and 30 June. The hon. “circumstances of the case should be such that a reasonable man Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne)—who I know acting without passion or prejudice would fairly have suspected cannot be here for the wind-up speeches today—said the person of having committed the offence”. that we had used the royal prerogative, but he should The similarity is there. note that no requests for a debate or for additional time We have a number of key legislative safeguards in for the Select Committee to consider matters were received place. Identity, for example, is one. Extradition is barred at that time. That is why the treaty was ratified at that if the judge is not satisfied on the balance of probabilities point. that the person before him is the person sought. Dual criminality provides another safeguard, as extradition Keith Vaz: The Home Secretary who signed the treaty is barred if dual criminality is not established. Evidence at the time—my right hon. Friend the Member for must be there, as I have outlined. Double jeopardy is Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett)—is on record as another, as extradition is barred if the person has saying that we did not get the best deal from the already been convicted or acquitted elsewhere. Other Americans. Surely that must mean that it is time to criteria include injustice due to ill health or passage of review the Act. time; injustice due to domestic proceedings; specific legislation on the death penalty; and specific legislation Mr. Hanson: I have to say that I have not heard my on onward extradition from another state to another right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside country. All those are real and proper safeguards. (Mr. Blunkett) say that. I believe that the treaty is an I accept that the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate effective modernisation of this aspect of the relationship (Mr. Burrowes) made a passionate case on behalf of his between the US and the UK. constituent, Gary McKinnon. The hon. Gentleman will The reason why we did that is quite simple—and I know that I cannot comment in detail because judicial believe that the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield reviews are before the House, but it is important to put (Mr. Grieve) agrees that we need effective judicial it on the record that so far, the US request has faced a 359 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 360 challenge by magistrates courts, the High Court, the Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hurd, Mr. Nick House of Lords, and now the European Court of Conway, Derek Jack, rh Mr. Michael Human Rights in Strasbourg. Even now there are separate Corbyn, Jeremy Jenkin, Mr. Bernard judicial reviews being undertaken. How much more Cormack, Sir Patrick Jones, Mr. David does the process require? There are safeguards in place Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jones, Lynne and opportunities to consider those matters. It is important Curry, rh Mr. David Kawczynski, Daniel Davey, Mr. Edward Keetch, Mr. Paul to stress that the Home Office has not ignored Davies, Mr. Dai Key, Robert Mr. McKinnon’s medical condition. That has been Davies, David T.C. Kirkbride, Miss Julie considered in detail today by my noble Friend Lord (Monmouth) Knight, rh Mr. Greg West, who is dealing with these matters. Davies, Philip Kramer, Susan Davis, rh David Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Sir Menzies Campbell: How would a proper relationship Devine, Mr. Jim Lait, Mrs. Jacqui between the United Kingdom and the United States be Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lancaster, Mr. Mark prejudiced if both countries had to meet the same Dorries, Nadine Lansley, Mr. Andrew standard—probable cause? Duddridge, James Laws, Mr. David Duncan, Alan Leech, Mr. John Mr. Hanson: The key to our discussion is that we Dunne, Mr. Philip Leigh, Mr. Edward believe that there are two judicial systems that are Evans, Mr. Nigel Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver self-evidently different. Within that, we have tried to Evennett, Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Fallon, Mr. Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian marry up together the evidential tests for the US Farron, Tim Lidington, Mr. David Government and ourselves. As we have made clear, the Featherstone, Lynne Lilley, rh Mr. Peter extradition agreements with the US are, in my view, not Field, Mr. Mark Luff, Peter only fair and balanced, but also ensure that we do what Flynn, Paul Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew we are trying to do, which is bring individuals on both Foster, Mr. Don Mackinlay, Andrew sides of the Atlantic to justice, when those matters are Fox, Dr. Liam Maclean, rh David required to be examined before the courts. Francois, Mr. Mark Main, Anne The suggestion has been made that a number of Fraser, Christopher Malins, Mr. Humfrey high-profile extradition cases have been unbalanced Gale, Mr. Roger Maples, Mr. John Garnier, Mr. Edward Mason, John and unfair. I cannot accept that. I believe that the Gauke, Mr. David Mates, rh Mr. Michael evidence on these matters is important. At first glance, George, Andrew Maude, rh Mr. Francis the Opposition motion may look relatively attractive Gibb, Mr. Nick May, rh Mrs. Theresa and it might be thought that a review could easily be Gidley, Sandra McCrea, Dr. William undertaken by my right hon. Friend. The evidence base Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McDonnell, John for that review can be provided so that the hon. Member Goldsworthy, Julia McIntosh, Miss Anne for Epsom and Ewell can understand it. Goodman, Mr. Paul McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick The motion refers to “jeopardising confidence”, and Goodwill, Mr. Robert Mercer, Patrick says that the Extradition Act is “being undermined”. Gove, Michael Milton, Anne Those are not presumptions that I wish to make. The Gray, Mr. James Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Grayling, Chris Moore, Mr. Michael Opposition’s views are not shared by my right hon. Grieve, Mr. Dominic Moss, Mr. Malcolm Friend the Home Secretary and me, and I commend the Gummer, rh Mr. John Mulholland, Greg Government amendment to the House. Hague, rh Mr. William Mundell, David Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2), That the Hammond, Mr. Philip Murrison, Dr. Andrew original words stand part of the Question:— Hancock, Mr. Mike Neill, Robert Hands, Mr. Greg Newmark, Mr. Brooks The House divided: Ayes 236, Noes 290. Harper, Mr. Mark O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Division No. 202] [4.10 pm Harris, Dr. Evan Oaten, Mr. Mark Harvey, Nick Öpik, Lembit AYES Hayes, Mr. John Ottaway, Richard Heald, Mr. Oliver Paterson, Mr. Owen Afriyie, Adam Breed, Mr. Colin Heath, Mr. David Pelling, Mr. Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Brooke, Annette Heathcoat-Amory, rh Penning, Mike Alexander, Danny Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mr. David Pickles, Mr. Eric Amess, Mr. David Browning, Angela Hemming, John Prisk, Mr. Mark Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Bruce, rh Malcolm Hendry, Charles Pritchard, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Burns, Mr. Simon Hoban, Mr. Mark Pugh, Dr. John Atkinson, Mr. Peter Burrowes, Mr. David Hoey, Kate Randall, Mr. John Baker, Norman Burstow, Mr. Paul Hollobone, Mr. Philip Redwood, rh Mr. John Baldry, Tony Burt, Alistair Holloway, Mr. Adam Reid, Mr. Alan Barker, Gregory Burt, Lorely Holmes, Paul Rennie, Willie Baron, Mr. John Cable, Dr. Vincent Barrett, John Cameron, rh Mr. David Horam, Mr. John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hosie, Stewart Robathan, Mr. Andrew Benyon, Mr. Richard Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Howard, rh Mr. Michael Robertson, Angus Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Howarth, David Robertson, Hugh Binley, Mr. Brian Carswell, Mr. Douglas Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robertson, Mr. Laurence Bone, Mr. Peter Cash, Mr. William Howell, John Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Boswell, Mr. Tim Clappison, Mr. James Huhne, Chris Rogerson, Dan Brady, Mr. Graham Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Rowen, Paul Brazier, Mr. Julian Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hunter, Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian 361 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 362

Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Eagle, Angela Kidney, Mr. David Scott, Mr. Lee Vaizey, Mr. Edward Eagle, Maria Knight, rh Jim Selous, Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Efford, Clive Kumar, Dr. Ashok Shapps, Grant Vaz, rh Keith Ellman, Mrs. Louise Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Shepherd, Mr. Richard Viggers, Sir Peter Engel, Natascha Lammy, rh Mr. David Simmonds, Mark Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Ennis, Jeff Laxton, Mr. Bob Simpson, Alan Walker, Mr. Charles Fitzpatrick, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Waterson, Mr. Nigel Flello, Mr. Robert Lepper, David Simpson, Mr. Keith Watkinson, Angela Flint, rh Caroline Levitt, Tom Smith, Sir Robert Weir, Mr. Mike Follett, Barbara Lewis, Mr. Ivan Soames, Mr. Nicholas Whittingdale, Mr. John Foster, Mr. Michael Linton, Martin Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Williams, Hywel (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony Spicer, Sir Michael Williams, Mark Foster, Michael Jabez Love, Mr. Andrew Spring, Mr. Richard Williams, Stephen (Hastings and Rye) Lucas, Ian Stanley, rh Sir John Willis, Mr. Phil Francis, Dr. Hywel MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Steen, Mr. Anthony Willott, Jenny Gapes, Mike Mactaggart, Fiona Streeter, Mr. Gary Wilshire, Mr. David Gardiner, Barry Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Stuart, Mr. Graham Wilson, Mr. Rob George, rh Mr. Bruce Malik, Mr. Shahid Stunell, Andrew Winterton, Ann Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mallaber, Judy Swayne, Mr. Desmond Winterton, Sir Nicholas Gilroy, Linda Mann, John Swinson, Jo Wishart, Pete Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marris, Rob Swire, Mr. Hugo Wright, Jeremy Goggins, rh Paul Marsden, Mr. Gordon Goodman, Helen Martlew, Mr. Eric Tapsell, Sir Peter Yeo, Mr. Tim Taylor, Mr. Ian Griffith, Nia McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Young, rh Sir George Taylor, Dr. Richard Griffiths, Nigel McCabe, Steve Younger-Ross, Richard Teather, Sarah Grogan, Mr. John McCarthy, Kerry Thurso, John Tellers for the Ayes: Gwynne, Andrew McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Tredinnick, David Bill Wiggin and Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Turner, Mr. Andrew Mr. Stephen Crabb Hall, Mr. Mike McFall, rh John Hall, Patrick McGovern, Mr. Jim NOES Hamilton, Mr. David McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Hanson, rh Mr. David McIsaac, Shona Abbott, Ms Diane Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet McKechin, Ann Ainger, Nick Cairns, David Havard, Mr. Dai McKenna, Rosemary Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Campbell, Mr. Alan Healey, rh John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hendrick, Mr. Mark Merron, Gillian Allen, Mr. Graham Caton, Mr. Martin Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Michael, rh Alun Anderson, Mr. David Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hesford, Stephen Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Anderson, Janet Challen, Colin Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Miliband, rh David Armstrong, rh Hilary Chapman, Ben Heyes, David Miliband, rh Edward Atkins, Charlotte Clapham, Mr. Michael Hill, rh Keith Miller, Andrew Austin, Mr. Ian Clark, Ms Katy Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mitchell, Mr. Austin Austin, John Clark, Paul Hood, Mr. Jim Moffat, Anne Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hope, Phil Moffatt, Laura Baird, Vera Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Mole, Chris Balls, rh Ed Clelland, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Banks, Gordon Clwyd, rh Ann Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morden, Jessica Barlow, Ms Celia Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morgan, Julie Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Coffey, Ann Hughes, rh Beverley Mountford, Kali Battle, rh John Cook, Frank Humble, Mrs. Joan Mudie, Mr. George Bayley, Hugh Cooper, Rosie Hutton, rh Mr. John Munn, Meg Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, rh Yvette Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Begg, Miss Anne Crausby, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Bell, Sir Stuart Creagh, Mary Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Benn, rh Hilary Cruddas, Jon Irranca-Davies, Huw Norris, Dan Benton, Mr. Joe Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jackson, Glenda O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Betts, Mr. Clive Cummings, John James, Mrs. Siân C. Olner, Mr. Bill Blackman, Liz Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Tony Johnson, rh Alan Owen, Albert Blunkett, rh Mr. David Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Johnson, Ms Diana R. Palmer, Dr. Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Helen Pearson, Ian Brennan, Kevin Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Mr. Kevan Plaskitt, Mr. James Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Mr. Martyn Pope, Mr. Greg Brown, Lyn Dean, Mrs. Janet Joyce, Mr. Eric Pound, Stephen Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Denham, rh Mr. John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prentice, Bridget Brown, Mr. Russell Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Mr. Gordon Browne, rh Des Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Primarolo, rh Dawn Buck, Ms Karen Dobson, rh Frank Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Burden, Richard Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kelly, rh Ruth Purchase, Mr. Ken Burnham, rh Andy Doran, Mr. Frank Kemp, Mr. Fraser Purnell, rh James Butler, Ms Dawn Dowd, Jim Kennedy, rh Jane Rammell, Bill Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Drew, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick 363 US-UK Extradition Treaty15 JULY 2009 US-UK Extradition Treaty 364

Reed, Mr. Andy Stringer, Graham Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Reed, Mr. Jamie Stuart, Ms Gisela That the proposed words be there added. Reid, rh John Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Riordan, Mrs. Linda Tami, Mark Question agreed to. Robertson, John Taylor, Ms Dari The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Taylor, David amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Rooney, Mr. Terry Thomas, Mr. Gareth Resolved, Roy, Mr. Frank Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Roy, Lindsay Todd, Mr. Mark That this House notes that it is beneficial to the Ruane, Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don public to be able to extradite people accused of crimes Ruddock, Joan Trickett, Jon in another country who might otherwise escape justice Russell, Christine Turner, Dr. Desmond and that extradition treaties such as the US-UK Extradition Ryan, rh Joan Turner, Mr. Neil Treaty 2003 work to the significant benefit of both Salter, Martin Twigg, Derek countries; notes that the UK must demonstrate ‘probable Seabeck, Alison Ussher, Kitty cause’ to the US courts while the US must demonstrate Sharma, Mr. Virendra Vis, Dr. Rudi ‘reasonable suspicion’ to the UK courts; notes that Shaw, Jonathan Waltho, Lynda these tests are broadly equivalent given the differences Sheerman, Mr. Barry Ward, Claire between the legal systems in the two jurisdictions; recognises Sheridan, Jim Wareing, Mr. Robert N. the view that ascertaining whether prosecution ought to Simon, Mr. Siôn Watts, Mr. Dave take place in the UK should be considered by relevant Skinner, Mr. Dennis Whitehead, Dr. Alan Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wicks, rh Malcolm prosecutors at the beginning of the process and not by Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Williams, rh Mr. Alan judges at extradition hearings, which could result in Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Williams, Mrs. Betty serious criminals evading justice; and further notes that Smith, Geraldine Wills, rh Mr. Michael since 2004, people have been convicted on murder, Smith, John Wilson, Phil manslaughter and smuggling charges in the UK following Snelgrove, Anne Winterton, rh Ms Rosie extradition from the US, whilst those charged with Soulsby, Sir Peter Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun murder and terrorism offences have been extradited to Southworth, Helen Woolas, Mr. Phil the USA. Spellar, rh Mr. John Wright, Mr. Anthony Spink, Bob Wright, Mr. Iain Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Ihavenowto Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wright, Dr. Tony announce the result of the Division deferred from a Stewart, Ian Wyatt, Derek previous day. On the question relating to the East Stoate, Dr. Howard Tellers for the Noes: Midlands Regional Grand Committee, the ayes were Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Mr. John Heppell and 277 and the Noes were 180, so the Question was Straw, rh Mr. Jack David Wright agreed to. [The Division list is published at the end of today’s Question accordingly negatived. debates.] 365 15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 366

Caring for the Elderly such documents. What do they have in common? Is it the fact that they serve only to underline this Government’s record of inaction and failure when it comes to the Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I advise the needs and concerns of older people? House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. First we had “Building a society for all ages”. After 12 years, it appears that Ministers have finally woken up to the challenges of an ageing society. Of course, we can 4.25 pm agree that increased longevity is phenomenal. If my speech were to last an hour, Madam Deputy Speaker—I Mr. Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne) (Con): I beg to promise you that it will not, although it may seem like move, it—your life expectancy on average would increase by That this House believes all old people should be treated with about 12 minutes during that hour. Indeed, in the dignity and respect; regrets that 2.5 million pensioners are living foreword to that document, the Prime Minister is good in poverty; notes the Government’s failure to state when it intends enough to refer to my erstwhile constituent Henry to restore the link between the uprating of the state pension and the growth in average earnings; regrets the sharp decline of Allingham, who at 113 is now the oldest man—but not defined benefit schemes during this Government’s stewardship; the oldest person—in the world. further regrets that the Government failed to adopt proposals for fully-funded measures to help savers in this year’s Budget; notes The best Labour can offer us is a “grandparents that some 45,000 people are forced to sell their homes each year summit” in the autumn and an earlier review of the to pay for long-term care; regrets the lack of costed options and default retirement age, plus a ragbag of existing initiatives, proposals in the Government’s Green Paper for the future funding empty self-congratulation and some vague aspirations of long-term care; recognises the pressures on the health and for the future. There are to be refresher courses for older social care systems due to demographic factors and the debt drivers. It is all jam tomorrow while hard-pressed pensioners crisis; notes that, despite claims to the contrary, no party has bear the brunt of the recession. plans to cut support for pensioners such as free bus passes, free TV licences for over 75s or winter fuel allowance; supports active The document promises to bring forward to next year and independent ageing; pays tribute to all those with caring the review of the default retirement age. It rightly points responsibilities across the public, third and private sectors, in out that more than 1 million people are already working particular the 6 million voluntary carers in the UK; and calls on beyond state pension age—mainly, I suspect, through the Government to introduce more effective policies to encourage respect for older citizens and to promote security and dignity in harsh economic necessity. It sets out the financial and old age. social benefits of working longer, but for many people, continuing to work may be the only way of repairing Prior to their election in 1997, the Government made their finances for retirement. Indeed we have already three hugely important promises to our older citizens. legislated to raise the state pension age to 68. But the First, the current Prime Minister said: Opposition have been saying for several years that retirement “I want the next Labour government to achieve what in 50 should be less an event and more a process. Flexibility is years of the welfare state has never been achieved—the end of the what older workers need. However, the document is means test for our elderly people.” bizarrely free of any opinion from Ministers as to Labour also promised in its 1997 manifesto that whether they support a default retirement age. This is “all pensioners should share fairly in the increasing prosperity of the very point to be decided by a High Court judge very the nation.” soon. Perhaps in her response the Minister for Pensions At the 1997 Labour party conference, Tony Blair said: and the Ageing Society could give us some clue about the Government’s thinking on the subject, or even just “I don’t want them”— tell us what she thinks. The Government also make children— much of the Equality Bill as a vehicle to tackle age “brought up in a country where the only way pensioners can get discrimination, yet although that Bill includes wide long-term care is by selling their home.” powers to bring in exemptions relating to older people, On all those promises, Labour has comprehensively the detail of the exemptions is not yet available. failed to deliver for older people. Means-testing now The document is also guilty of spin when it deals with affects nearly half of all pensioners. Some £5 billion a pensioner poverty. It asserts: year in benefits goes unclaimed by pensioners. As for increased prosperity, there are now some 2.5 million “For the first time pensioners are now less likely than others to pensioners living in poverty. Even before the economic be in poverty.” downturn began to bite, research for Age Concern and That is also a favourite mantra for Ministers, but it is Help the Aged showed that 60 per cent. of low-income based on statistics after housing costs. If we take the pensioners were struggling to get by and were finding it figures before housing costs, the story is very different. hard to manage, two thirds were cutting back on gas and electricity, more than half were buying less or poorer quality food, and one in 12 pensioners said that Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Is my hon. they had built up debt as a result of increases in the cost Friend aware that in their latest proposals the Government of living. As for long-term care, some 45,000 people a talk about a £20,000 tax on prudent pensioners—if year are still being forced to sell their homes to pay for they still have a pension left. That will be a £10 billion-plus care costs. Not much of a record, is it? a year tax on the very people who have saved to look What are Ministers doing, as this Government head after their future. Is that not a disgrace, and does it not for the buffers? They publish more discussion documents. sum up the Labour approach to poverty in old age? In the last few days alone, they have produced two They want more people to be poor, because they want to tax them more. 367 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 368

Mr. Waterson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, In this year’s Budget, we called on the Government to who makes a powerful point. The people who should increase age-related personal allowances for those aged always beware of the Government’s Green Papers and 65 or above by £2,000, which would have benefited White Papers are, of course, those who have taken the them by up to £400 a year. We pressed Ministers to precaution of saving for their old age. scrap income tax on savings for basic rate taxpayers. I was talking about Government spin on pensioner Instead, the Government increased taxes on pensions. poverty. The truth is that 2.5 million pensioners are Ministers have even refused our proposal that the living in official poverty. A recent OECD report put the compulsory annuitisation rules be temporarily suspended UK at the bottom—Ministers should listen to this—of during the financial turmoil. As a result, many people a league table of 17 industrialised countries for its state who prudently saved for their retirement have been pension provision. Another example of spin is the oft- forced to fix their income for the rest of their lives at the repeated mantra by Ministers—indeed, it makes another worst possible moment. We Conservatives believe that appearance today in the amendment—that they are Governments should encourage saving, not penalise it. spending £x billion more than if pre-1997 policies had We would introduce measures that would help everyone, been maintained. That is, of course, grossly misleading but particularly older people, such as the two-year because it assumes that if there had been a Conservative council tax freeze, which is worth more than £200 to the Government in the intervening years not a penny extra typical family, and energy-efficiency improvements for would have been spent on our pensioners. every household, saving energy and reducing bills. Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): I am Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): The sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that the desperate hon. Gentleman proposes fixing council tax for two plight of the elderly is being raised on the doorsteps in years, which will result in councils having less money to the Norwich, North by-election. People have had enough spend. Does he not appreciate that councils are responsible of the inaction of this Government. Does he agree that for the adult social care budget, which is the only part that will be shown in the voting pattern at the election of their budget that is not ring-fenced, and that they next week? will therefore look to that budget for savings?

Mr. Waterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who Mr. Waterson: The hon. Gentleman assumes that all makes an excellent point. As someone who has also councils will go down the route taken by some Labour encountered older people’s tangible anger with this and Liberal Democrat councils of cutting front-line Government on the doorsteps of Norwich, I am sure services, instead of achieving efficiencies and savings in that his prediction is absolutely right. back-room operations, but I can tell him from my David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): experience not only in my constituency but on the I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman was in the very doorsteps in Norwich that the two-year council tax early 1980s when, in one of the meanest acts of the freeze is extremely popular, not least with pensioners, Thatcher Government, pensions were detached from who bear the brunt of council tax rises. average pay in the economy. If he was in this place at that time, did he vote for that? If he was not in this John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): Does the hon. place, did he support it? That was one of the accelerators Gentleman agree with me that even better than a council of pensioner poverty in the 1980s and 1990s. tax freeze would be a local income tax, which would link people’s ability to pay with what they actually pay Mr. Waterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for local services? for his intervention. In fairness, he assiduously attends these debates on pensions issues. I might have a slightly Mr. Waterson: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. lived-in look, but I certainly was not a Member of this I would be happy to have a completely separate debate House in the early 1980s. We could go into the prehistory on that topic, because when the Liberal Democrats of 1980 and the decision to break the link at that were pushing that policy in my constituency, it turned point—again, curiously, as history repeats itself, the out that most people would end up paying more. then Government had inherited a disastrous financial situation from a previous Labour Government, but we Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): will not go down that route—but this Government have Does my hon. Friend agree with me that now is the had 12 long years to restore the link and they have done perfect time for the Government to do the right thing by nothing about it. the Equitable Life pensioners, who are demanding justice? Perhaps the most unfairly treated of all are those The parliamentary ombudsman has ruled on their behalf, pensioners to whom I referred a moment ago, who did but the Government have flagrantly ignored that ruling the right thing all their lives. They saved while they were and refused to give justice to so many pensioners. working so that they could supplement their pension when they retired. About three quarters of pensioner Mr. Waterson: I can only agree with my hon. Friend. households receive income from savings and investment, The blatant way in which the Government are attempting and in recent times they have seen those savings rendered to put off the evil day, while more and more Equitable almost worthless. The interest that they receive, thanks Life victims sadly pass away, is outrageous. There seems to the economic mess that this Government have caused, to have been a campaign of delay and dithering, as on is pitiful or even non-existent. To make matters worse, so many other things. the Treasury assumes that they are getting 10 per cent. The Government’s record on pensions is no better. A on those savings when it comes to calculating entitlement report produced by the Department for Work and Pensions to benefits. Will the Minister now undertake to review concluded that 51 per cent. of people would not trust the tariff income rule that causes such blatant unfairness? the Government to act in their best interests on pensions. 369 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 370

[Mr. Waterson] Mr. Waterson: I was happy to give way to a distinguished former Pensions Minister. He is right about the dodging Although we passed the necessary legislation some time point; I do not know whether he was in the Chamber ago, Ministers will still not say exactly when they will when I quoted Tony Blair saying that he did not want restore the link between the uprating of the state pension children brought up in a country where the only way and the growth in average earnings. May I please press that people could pay for long-term care was by selling the Minister on that again today? their homes. I am sorry, but it was absolutely no good The Government have tested to destruction the notion the Secretary of State’s saying yesterday that he was that mass means-testing can deliver help to those most kicking off a debate. Where has the right hon. Member in need. As I said, each year more than £5 billion of for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) been? We have benefits goes unclaimed by needy pensioners and some certainly been debating the subject for more than 12 1.7 million people never claim the pension credit to years. which they are entitled. Other benefits have even worse take-up, the best example being council tax benefit. Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): Why will Ministers not support the British Legion and If the hon. Gentleman has been debating the issue, what Age Concern campaign to change the name of the are his party’s proposals? We have not seen them. When benefit to council tax rebate, so that people can see that will his party tell the British people of its policies, or it is theirs as of right? does it not have any? The Government have also presided over a huge Mr. Waterson: I am sorry to disabuse the hon. Lady, retreat from private and occupational pensions. More but we have to have the small formality of a general than 70,000 occupational schemes have wound up or election before we can start doing something. begun winding up since Labour took office in 1997—no wonder, when one of the Government’s first acts was their tax raid on pensions, which is estimated to have Christopher Fraser: The Secretary of State said yesterday: cost pension funds up to £150 billion since 1997. They “it would be wrong to force the pace of that debate.”—[Official have continued to heap extra costs and red tape on Report, 14 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 162.] those employers who, for all the right reasons, continue Does my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne to sponsor defined-benefit schemes for their work force. (Mr. Waterson) accept that, for people who are dying in The latest estimate puts the funding shortfall for UK poverty because of the inaction of this Government, 12 defined-benefit schemes at more than £200 billion—a years is far too long to wait? staggering 88 per cent. of the country’s DB schemes face a shortfall. The pensions regulator has warned of Mr. Waterson: Well, 45,000 homes a year for 12 “severe pressures”on employers and pension fund trustees years—hon. Members can do the maths. People have and members, and pensions expert Dr. Ros Altmann had to sell their main asset, which was built up painfully has said that we are over a working life, because the Government have dithered “on the way to being a nation of pensioner poverty.” and delayed. To go back to the intervention of the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith), In contrast, we will simplify pensions rules and do let me point out that of the main parties ours was the everything possible to encourage responsible employers only one that had a specific policy on long-term care in to make generous workplace provision. The new system their election manifesto. I can assure my hon. Friend of personal accounts may auto-enrol many thousands, the Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) or even hundreds of thousands, of workers, who may be and the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale no better off or even worse off because of the effect of that we will have one in our next manifesto. the means-tested benefits system. Even worse, personal accounts could actually hasten the demise of more Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): That is generous existing schemes—a phenomenon called levelling an extraordinary statement. The hon. Gentleman knows down. full well that we had a policy on social care at the last Yesterday, the long-awaited Green Paper on care and election, so will he correct his false statement? support was published—another one with a chatty foreword by the Prime Minister. He seems to think that we need Mr. Waterson: I think that I said “the main parties”. I “a major debate” on the issues. We do not need another believe that the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra debate; we need a decision. Is that really the best that Gidley) described the policy to which the hon. Member Labour can do after 12 years in government, and 10 for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) refers as years since the Sutherland report—more dithering, more dishonest in a debate in Westminster Hall, on the record. options to debate, and a menu without prices? Perhaps they would like to sort that out between themselves.

Malcolm Wicks (Croydon, North) (Lab): Given that Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con) rose— the serious question of how we care for a growing number of frail, elderly people did not suddenly arise in Mr. Waterson: I will take one more intervention, and 1997, and given that for 25 years or more, Governments then I will make a bit of progress. have dodged that serious social question, left over from the Beveridge reforms, will the hon. Gentleman engage, Jeremy Wright: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for as I think he says he will, in the serious debate on the giving way. Does he agree that there may well be some subject that was kicked off by the Secretary of State? As merit in the Government’s argument that the subject part of that serious debate, will the hon. Gentleman tell cannot be rushed? It involves the need for cross-party us now what the answer is, according to Conservative consensus. However, does he also agree that the real Members? question is what has happened in Government between 371 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 372 the publication of the Wanless review in 2006 and the Mr. Waterson: We have no such plans, and it is publication this week of a series of options for further dishonest to claim otherwise. Labour claims that we discussion? What have the Government done between would scrap the winter fuel allowance. We have no such those two dates? plans, and it is dishonest to claim otherwise. I hope that that is clear. Mr. Waterson: My hon. Friend is right; it is a bit of a mystery. Mr. Graham Stuart: I think that my hon. Friend has just exposed how this dying Government are behaving. Age Concern and Help the Aged have commented on They are using elderly people and the services that they the Green Paper, saying: rely on as a political football, and they are doing so in a “With time now short the Government must set out a clear dishonest fashion. [Interruption.] Labour Members may timetable to move from debating options to agreeing and implementing laugh, but dishonest and untruthful allegations about specific proposals.” another party’s policies, when so many people rely on I entirely agree. the benefits involved, is absolutely wrong. I want to raise a specific issue to do with benefits for people with disabilities. The Green Paper makes various Mr. Waterson: I agree. It is beneath contempt to raise suggestions about using non-means-tested disability fears, especially among the elderly, but that is a sign of benefits—such as disability living allowance and attendance the Government’s desperation. allowance—to help fund the means-tested social care system. That would represent a huge shift in the principles Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I was in that underlie the system of disability benefits, and would the House when the Conservatives were in government be of great concern to many disability organisations for 18 years. Will the hon. Gentleman bear it in mind and disabled people. If media reports are to be believed, that his party strenuously opposed the winter fuel allowance the Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions and for and the free TV licence at every stage? They also opposed Health were arguing about the point right up to the last my private Member’s Bill, and they said no whenever moment before the Green Paper was published. It seems we said that the elderly should be helped with heating. that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions lost that battle in Government, but that will not be good Mr. Waterson: Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I am news for disabled people. talking about the here and now—the pensioners who The Green Paper could not be clearer: there is no are suffering and being told blatant untruths, here and guarantee of extra Government funding to meet the now. yawning gap in provision. People may well end up being I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion. Thanks to forced into a compulsory insurance scheme and, at the huge advances in health care, nutrition and living conditions, end of it, a nationalised system of care. Yet still the old age need no longer be a time of anxiety and frailty. relentless destruction of hard-won family assets goes Most of us are living longer and healthier lives. As on, the lottery of care continues, and older people and someone said recently, 70 is the new 50 and 50 is the their families remain fearful about what will happen to new 30 but, thanks to this Government, many older them when they are frail and needy. What older people people have little to celebrate. need in these difficult times is more help from the Our older citizens are the innocent victims of this Government, not less. Dot Gibson, the general secretary recession made in Downing Street. They deserve help in of the National Pensioners Convention, said: these difficult times. They need a Government who are “The fact that it has taken 12 years for the Government to on their side, not a Government who have destroyed the come up with any proposals—with the prospect of up to another value of their savings, laid waste their pensions and five years before any legislation—is a terrible betrayal of Britain’s failed to provide a proper safety net for when they can pensioners and their families.” no longer cope. They need a new Government who are I shall take this opportunity to explode some of the prepared to tackle those issues with fresh energy and myths that Labour have been peddling about Conservative fresh ideas. They need change. I commend the motion policies, especially in connection with the Norwich to the House. [Interruption.] by-election. Labour is saying that we would cut pension credit, but that is dishonest as we have never said that Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The Question is as we would cut either pensions or pension credit. Labour on the Order Paper—[Interruption.] Order. Can those is saying that we would scrap free TV licences, but that on both Front Benches come to order? Can we please is dishonest as we have no plans to do so. have this debate conducted in the proper manner? I call the Minister to move the amendment in the Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): Another name of the Government. Labour lie. 4.49 pm Mr. Waterson: Labour is also claiming that we would scrap free bus passes for the elderly, but we have no such plans and it is dishonest— The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society (Angela Eagle): I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: Mr. O’Brien: Another Labour lie. “welcomes the steps taken since 1997 to tackle increasing pensioner poverty; notes that policies delivering real help to pensioners Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Comments are being include free bus passes, free TV licences, winter fuel payments and made from a sedentary position. May I remind Members Pension Credit which ensures no pensioner lives on less than about the conduct of parliamentary debates? £130 a week; notes that the Government is targeting around 373 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 374

[Angela Eagle] are worried about the situation, and those who do not wish to see their chances of employment disappear the £100 billion more on pensioners than if pre-1997 policies had day after their 65th birthday. been maintained; further notes the Government’s commitment to reversing the policy of separating uprating of the state pension and growth in average earnings; notes the introduction of the Jeremy Wright: As part of the review, could we reflect Financial Assistance Scheme, the Pension Protection Fund and what is one of my frustrations and, perhaps, one of the the Turner consensus as building a sustainable pensions system Minister’s? In such debates, we always refer to older going forward; welcomes raising of Individual Savings Accounts people as a drain on the nation’s resources, not as limits at Budget 2009; warmly welcomes the Government’s Ageing contributors to them. May we please reflect the fact that Strategy; further welcomes the publication of the Green Paper, older people make a huge contribution to the child care Shaping the future of care together, which proposes a National needs of a variety of families and to the charitable Care Service to create the first national, universal, entitlement-based system for care and support ever in England; notes that the sector, and recognise at all times that they are net Government’s proposals will shape a new care and support system contributors as well as drawers on the nation’s resources? fit for the 21st century that will be fairer, simpler and more affordable for everyone; further notes the published indicative Angela Eagle: I am more than happy to agree costs an individual may face during their lifetime and the wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman. I do not comprehensive impact assessment for the Green Paper; recognises that carers make a huge contribution to society; and acknowledges think that we, certainly on the Government Benches, that the new Care Quality Commission has made dignity and refer to older people as a burden. It is quite clear that respect one of its six key areas of inspection.” they offer a great opportunity for economic development We have heard quite a peroration today, but to say and for handing on many of their life experiences to the that it was policy-light would be the understatement of younger generation, and that there is a great deal of what is admittedly a young century. There was quite an opportunity in developing older businesses. Opposition extraordinary lack of content: a lot of bluster and Front Benchers rather sneered at the idea that grandparents noise, but absolutely no clue to, or content on, the fit in as a sandwich generation, often caring for younger Opposition’s approach to these difficult and complex people as well as for older relatives, but it is a key social issues. policy issue that needs to be developed, not sneered at. The Prime Minister laid out the Government’s agenda I was disappointed with the sneering approach of the for the future in “Building Britain’s Future”, and on hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) to that Monday we published our strategy, “Building a Society issue. The Budget announcement about crediting in for All Ages”, which explained how the Government national insurance contributions for grandparents with will provide flexible retirement opportunities for older caring responsibilities is a breakthrough policy. I expect people and enable those who wish to remain in work to that we will see more such measures, so that we can do so. We will ban unjustifiable age discrimination as establish that grandparents have an important and central part of the Equality Bill, and on that point I might ask role in our social policy. Opposition Front Benchers why they voted against the Bill’s Second Reading. Christopher Fraser: Does the hon. Lady accept that, as I mentioned earlier, there is cynicism among elderly We also announced that we are bringing forward the people on the doorsteps of Norwich, North? They are review of the default retirement age, and if the review saying on a daily basis that there is too little, too late; shows that the policy is no longer justified we will take the Government have ignored them for too long, and steps to remove it. We have laid the foundations for a there is suddenly a bit of action when a by-election better future for older people, focusing on planning and comes up. Does she accept that they have had enough saving for later life, and we are committed to doing and that that will be reflected in next week’s result? more. Angela Eagle: My experience of meeting older people Malcolm Wicks: On the default retirement age, does in many areas around the country is not that they reflect the Minister agree that, in the coming years, with longer the approach that the hon. Gentleman wishes for in life expectancy, the idea that one retirement age should respect of next week’s by-election. Time will tell. apply to all is bound to be thrown into the dustbin of British social history? Would it not be sensible if the Government came forward now and said that that was Mr. Graham Stuart: Can the Minister tell us whether their position? It is a sensible position, and it will soon the Prime Minister plans to visit Norwich, just as he did happen. Glenrothes? Perhaps he will explain the Government’s policies to older people there. Angela Eagle: It is quite clear that the approaches to social policy that Beveridge developed, essentially, when Angela Eagle: When Conservative Members see a our life expectancy was much shorter and a man could woman, they often think that she is a secretary. I have to look forward to barely one year of life in retirement, tell the House that I am not the Prime Minister’s involved a different society from the one in which we secretary, so I do not know about his intentions in will routinely enjoy 20 to 25 years of retirement. It is respect of visiting the constituency. quite clear also that we have to evolve our structures, We have laid the foundations for a better future for our system and the meaning of retirement, so that there older people, focusing on planning and saving for later is a flexible approach, rather than a cliff edge off which life. We are committed to doing more. We are not just one falls. That is the clear way forward, but we are taking action to deliver help now for Britain’s pensioners, committed to looking at the review and the evidence. It but planning for generations to come and encouraging is important that we take evidence from employers who others to do the same. 375 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 376

Yesterday, we published “Shaping the future of care Angela Eagle: I think there might be some sort of together”, a Green Paper that considers how care and approach on which we can agree in terms of philosophical support services can be personalised, placing choice change in this regard. What I am trying to do instead of and control at the heart of the system. Under a new having this rather juvenile exchange—[Interruption.] national care system, everybody with a care need will Well, there is a lot of consensus in pensions policy. have at least some of their care costs paid for by the Conservative Front Benchers seem to think that “consensus” state. There will be a national entitlement and an end to is a dirty word. That is interesting, and I will bear it the postcode lottery. mind when I hear them talk about it in future.

Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): The Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Can the hon. Lady mentioned personalising care. A problem Minister assure the House that elderly people who are that has been around for a long time—and one, I have making a very valued contribution to care in their to say, that I picked up on while on the streets of families will be rewarded instead of taken for granted? Norwich, North only this week—relates to when people have a package of care. Elderly people do not want to Angela Eagle: A carers strategy is being developed. It find that they have to be put to bed at half-past 6 or is important that we begin to move further along the 7 o’clock. Their care is not personalised; they are often road of valuing and rewarding the work that millions of in the hands of agencies, funded through social services, carers do, which keeps our society going but is often that do not personalise care packages, but treat elderly unrewarded. The changes that we are making to crediting people as numbers. into the basic state pension in 2010 are a reward for that, as are the changes announced in the Budget about Angela Eagle: That is why we are working with the crediting grandparenting. There is much more for us to process set out in our document “Putting people first”, do, but I am happy to agree with the sentiments that the which is about personalising care. It is absolutely clear hon. Gentleman expressed. that we should be transforming services for older people by having them at the centre, making choices about how their care is delivered, rather than having one-size-fits-all Mr. Graham Stuart rose— care policies under which there is a compulsory bed time in a person’s own home according to what suits Angela Eagle: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman, whoever comes to give the care. That is why yesterday’s and I want to get on with my speech as this is a short Green Paper put such choice and personalisation right debate. at the centre of the transformation that we want to see. I want to compare Labour’s record with that of the We have already spent £500 million on developing the Conservatives. The hon. Member for Eastbourne talked first examples of that kind of personalisation. That about pensioner poverty, but after 18 years of the approach is transforming how local authorities are planning previous Tory Government, pensioners in Norwich and to deliver their care packages to their clients in future. elsewhere had got poorer. The poorest had to survive on a basic state pension of just £69 a week. Dr. Ladyman: I am sure that my hon. Friend has not forgotten—perhaps the hon. Member for Tiverton and Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): The major Honiton (Angela Browning) has—that this Government factor in that was the breaking of the link with earnings made it compulsory for councils to offer a direct payment made almost as soon as Mrs. Thatcher came into power. instead of providing care directly; every one of those people in Norwich could ask for the cash instead of the Angela Eagle: It was certainly one of the many factors. care service, and organise their care themselves. Equally, the Government gave councils the money to put a Twelve years of a Labour Government committed to charge on people’s homes so that they did not have to helping the poorest and most vulnerable has seen 900,000 sell their homes during their lifetimes, and their care older people lifted out of relative poverty, each one with could be paid for after their deaths. enhanced life chances that should be celebrated rather than dismissed by the Conservatives. Thanks to increases Angela Eagle: It is important that the approaches in the basic pension and pension credit this year, no that are being developed now become the norm in time. pensioner need live on less than £130 a week. Since We are in the middle of an approach that moves away 1997, this Government have spent about £100 billion from the old mass care packages that are delivered for more than if we had maintained the policies that we the convenience of the organisation that is delivering inherited from the Conservatives, and £13 billion of them rather than for the convenience and comfort of that extra spending is happening in this financial year, the people receiving them. That is a major theme that despite the economic challenges that we face. As a this Government have begun to develop and to fund. recent European Union report underlines, there has been a significant change in the income of the over-65s Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): I would be in the UK. In 1997, it was 15 per cent. below the EU grateful if the hon. Lady corrected the hon. Member for average: that is the Conservative record. After 12 years South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) on the timing of the of Labour government, it has risen to 9 per cent. above introduction of direct payments. I refer her to page 33 the average. of the document that she published yesterday, which We continue our efforts to increase the take-up of features an entirely accurate time line saying: pension credit, a benefit that did not even exist when the “Direct payments introduced offering disabled people more Conservative party was last in power. Since October control to buy directly the services they want”, 2008, it has been easier to claim, with claims for housing with an arrow pointing at the year 1996. I invite her to benefit and council tax benefit being made over the remember who were the Government at that time. phone and pension credit being directly forwarded to 377 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 378

[Angela Eagle] hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) asked the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), the local authority without the need for a signed claim “are the Tories now making a commitment to keep the winter fuel form. We continue to press ahead with targeted take-up allowance if they win the election?” campaigns, working with groups such as the Royal The hon. Gentleman said: British Legion and the Market Traders Association to “I will not make any commitments two years from an election”.— drive up pensioner claiming. [Official Report, 4 June 2008; Vol. 476, c. 841.] We are now 58 weeks on, and 42 weeks and one day John Mason: On that point, does the Minister accept from the likely date of the election. When will the that although there may have been an improvement in Opposition be clear about whether they support the the number of claims, there is still a bit of a gap? winter fuel allowance? An assertion that they have no plans to cut it is not equivalent to an endorsement that Angela Eagle: Of course, and we continue to try to they are going to continue— drive up the percentage of people claiming. In the Welfare Reform Bill, we are taking powers to share Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I information, so that we can try to make claims more think I have had to say to the hon. Gentleman on more automatic, and we now have a partnership agreement than one occasion that in his role as a member of the with all 209 primary local authorities to share housing Chairmen’s Panel, he would never allow that length of and council tax benefit claims as well as pension credit intervention. claims. I am optimistic that we can continue to make good progress, but I am not going to say that I am Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend the Member for North- completely satisfied with take-up. We still have to do West Leicestershire (David Taylor) has drawn attention more, and we are. to a point at issue. The country has to judge the Opposition Pension credit can open the door to many other by their actions. If they are so concerned about pensioner benefits, such as housing and council tax benefits. Jointly, poverty, why did they oppose the extra money allocated they can lead to an equivalent income of about £200 a in the pre-Budget report to cold weather payments? week, which is why we recently wrote to 230,000 people Why did they vote against Budget measures to finance about their council tax benefit to encourage them to the increase in winter fuel payments, paid last year and take up the benefits to which they are entitled. We make due to be repeated this year? 13,000 home visits every week to conduct benefit checks, and that work is ongoing week in, week out. Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): I do not know whether the Minister has had a chance to Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): May I commend read the report of the Select Committee, on which her the village agent scheme set up by the Department for party’s representatives predominate. One of its criticisms Work and Pensions, which is run in pilot in Gloucestershire? of the winter fuel allowance is that it is extremely poorly A group of people are employed to go into rural areas targeted and goes to those who pay higher rates of tax. and follow up on benefit opportunities. That has made The Select Committee has made a recommendation a dramatic difference to people who are never contacted that money could be saved by withdrawing the allowance in any other way. That is a real example of Labour from the rich. Does the Minister support such a policy? working in rural areas. Angela Eagle: The Government have no plans to do Angela Eagle: I thank my hon. Friend for his that, but I wonder whether the hon. and learned observations. When we conduct take-up campaigns, we Gentleman’s intervention gives a little glimpse into what must understand how important peer endorsement is. the future might be were there to be such a tragic One of the most effective ways of getting pensioners to occurrence as a Conservative victory at the next election. claim their entitlements is to enable them to have contact with pensioners who have been through the process and Mr. Winnick: Should not my hon. Friend congratulate can reassure them that it is not difficult and that a the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West successful claim makes a real difference to their living Devon (Mr. Cox) on saying frankly what Opposition standards. Front Benchers refuse to say? The Opposition would either abolish the winter fuel allowance, or, if they kept Geraldine Smith: I do not know about Norwich, but I it, it would be means-tested. Let us tell the people, was recently talking to a pensioner in Morecambe who including pensioners throughout the country, what a told me that he would be voting Labour because of the Tory Government would mean. winter fuel allowance, the free TV licence, the free bus pass and pension credit. He did not trust the Conservative Angela Eagle: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s party, because he was old enough to remember the tenacity in attempting to get some sort of sense out of 1980s and the last Conservative Government. Opposition Front Benchers. My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire quoted one of his attempts, Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend’s experiences on the which was rebuffed, to get the hon. Member for Eastbourne doorstep are similar to mine. to come clean about his party’s intentions last year. Recently, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and David Taylor: I was speaking to a pensioner in Norfolk Howden (David Davis) referred to winter fuel payments just a few days ago who knew that the take-up rate for as “a gimmick”. The Tory think-tank Reform suggested the winter fuel allowance is very high indeed. What she scrapping the payments altogether, along with free TV will not have known is that just 58 weeks ago today, my licences. That attitude goes to the very top. In May, the 379 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 380 right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) refused be new saving. That represents significant steps toward to rule out scrapping winter fuel payments. As my hon. tackling under-saving for later life, as well as a boost to Friends have just pointed out, the hon. Member for the industry. Eastbourne has refused to commit the Conservative Through the Budget this year, we introduced two party to retaining them. I note that he is not leaping to important changes for pensioners with savings. From the Dispatch Box to put us right about that. November, the capital disregard for pension credit will be increased from £6,000 to £10,000. That will benefit Mr. Waterson: With respect, the Minister is struggling. 500,000 people, with an average weekly gain of £4, and Let me make it clear: we have no plans to scrap those it means that 88 per cent. of pension credit recipients payments, and it is dishonest to suggest otherwise. will be unaffected by having benefit deducted because of their savings. From October, we will increase the Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I sense that the debate is amount that the over-50s can save in an individual deteriorating. Far too much extra chatter is going on. savings account to £10,200. Those measures, when taken Eight Back-Bench Members wish to speak in the debate with the planned changes to personal allowances announced and we have not yet got through Front Benchers’ speeches, in the Budget last year, will mean that around 600,000 so some people will be disappointed. I give notice now more pensioners will pay no tax at all. Overall, that that the time limit will be reduced. means that 60 per cent. of pensioners will pay no tax. Maintaining confidence in pensions is undermined Angela Eagle: I have been generous in giving way. To by scaremongering about the state of the industry. get through the rest of my remarks, I will not be so Unlike in previous downturns, this Government have generous. I merely observe that in May, when the right put in place arrangements to ensure that people are not hon. Member for Witney was asked whether he would left without a pension, even when their employer goes rule out abolishing the winter fuel payment, he refused bust. This Government set up the Pension Protection to do so. Fund to ensure a strong and clear protection regime for people whose pension scheme fails. The Pension Protection The Government have legislated for the most radical Fund provides a safety net for 12 million members of pension reforms since the basic state pension was defined-benefit schemes. It has £3 billion in assets and is introduced. Those changes will sharply narrow the gender currently paying out around £4.2 million a month in gap in pensions, delivering fairer outcomes for women compensation to those whose employers have ceased to and carers. In 2010, more women will be able to claim a trade. Given those numbers, there is no question but full basic state pension than ever before. The number of that the Pension Protection Fund is sustainable and qualifying years will be reduced from 39 to 30, which that people can have confidence that pensions savings means that around three quarters of women reaching can be maintained. state pension age in 2010 will be entitled to a full basic After inheriting a situation in 1997 where pensioner state pension in their own right, compared with around poverty had been growing, this party has made genuine only 30 per cent. now. progress in helping the most vulnerable. For the first Our reforms will enable more women to build up a time in history, we in Britain have broken the link state pension based on their own contributions. For the between age and poverty. Thanks to the policies of this first time, paid and credited contributions for caring Government, people are now no more likely to be poor will be recognised equally for basic state pension and because they are old. That is an achievement of which state second pension purposes. It is a great step forward we on the Government Benches are rightly proud. We that the invaluable caring work done by millions of have also laid strong and lasting foundations for the women up and down the country is finally to be recognised, future. We are not only taking action to deliver real help valued and rewarded in that historic reform. now to Britain’s pensioners, but planning for generations The Pensions Act 2008 also introduced a vital measure to come. Our pension reforms mean that generations to allow eligible people, mainly women and carers again, will benefit from a fairer and more generous state to buy an additional six years of voluntary national pension and that millions more will be saving in workplace insurance contributions. We estimate that as many as pensions. Being old need no longer mean being poor, 500,000 women will benefit from that change alone. thanks to the action that we are already taking. The Opposition have claimed that we have not been That is the agenda of a Government who are on the clear about the restoration of the link with earnings, but side of the people, not markets—a Government of that change is already enshrined in law. We have been action who will not sit idly by and do nothing. We have clear that we will restore the link between state pensions published our strategy to build a society for all ages, and earnings in 2012 or by the end of the next Parliament and we will take action to bring forward the review of at the latest. From 2012, radical changes to private the default retirement age. Yesterday, we published a pension saving will start to come into effect. Those Green Paper looking at the care and support system, changes will be the most significant changes to pension which encompasses many of the important issues that provision since the state pension was introduced 100 have struck such a chord outside this House, such as years ago. We will see between 6 million and 9 million personalisation and the national carers system. I commend workers either newly saving or saving more in workplace the Prime Minister’s amendment to the House. pension schemes. That will be supported by the introduction of the personal accounts scheme, which will fill the gap Several hon. Members rose— in the pensions market for workers on moderate or low incomes. Annual pension contributions are estimated to Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I call the hon. grow to around £10 billion a year by 2015 as a result of Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland), let those changes. Around £6 billion of that is estimated to me say that I rather hope that his speech is no longer 381 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 382

[Mr. Deputy Speaker] Over the next 20 years, the number of people in England over 85 will double, and the number of people than that of his Front-Bench colleague earlier, on which over 100 will quadruple, yet we continue to have discussion basis the time limit on Back-Bench speeches had better after discussion on what we should do about the situation. be reduced to 10 minutes. The Government themselves estimate that over 1.7 million more people will need care and support in 20 years’ time, yet we are seeing inadequate funding at local 5.19 pm authority level from central Government, and a tightening Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): Thank of criteria. We have all heard stories in our own areas you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have to say that I have no about people not getting the basic services that they idea how long my colleague’s speech was. need in order to lead a dignified and independent life.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: It was 20 minutes, if that is Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): Does my helpful. hon. Friend accept that one reason for pensioner poverty is that pensioner inflation is far in excess of the ordinary Greg Mulholland: I shall endeavour not to speak for inflation that we feel? For instance, the increases in longer than that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. utility bills, water rates and council tax have far exceeded the rate at which pensions have increased. This has led I think that we can all agree that the Government are to more pensioners being in debt and more being worse extremely good at warm words. The Prime Minister off than they were before. We need to address not only stated in his foreword to yesterday’s Green Paper on the level of the pension but the increase in costs that social care: many pensioners have to bear. For instance, we could “The way in which our society provides care and support for get rid of the council tax and replace it with— those who need it, whether in later life of because of disability, should reflect our values of compassion and fairness. In Britain we rightly aspire to a care and support system in which everyone’s Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that that is a long needs are met and people can live their lives to the full.” enough intervention. But how many older people in this country would recognise the reality of their lives over the past twelve Greg Mulholland: My hon. Friend raises an important and a half years in those words? Only last year, we had point. Indeed, the issues relevant to this debate are another consultation paper from the Government: “The covered by many Departments. case for change: why England needs a new care and support system”. Its opening paragraph stated: Social care in this country has been a Cinderella service for many years, and we have had very little apart “In a civilised society, we have a moral obligation to ensure from warm words to suggest that that is going to that people in need are not left without any care or support.” change. Recently we saw the publication of the NHS Yet here we are, a year on, talking about the start of a constitution, which once again entrenched the division consultation process. between health and social care. Many of us find that The sad reality for pensioners in Britain in the 21st division artificial, yet there it was again in black and century is that 2.5 million of them live in poverty. That white. I ask the Minister again, as I have asked before: is about one in five of the pensioners in this country. No when will that be addressed? Are we going to have a Government—especially a Labour Government—should social care constitution, and why is social care not be anything other than deeply ashamed about that. The incorporated in the NHS contribution? Commission for Social Care Inspection has estimated that older people are forced to spend £6 billion a year of Dr. Ladyman: The hon. Gentleman seems to have their own money—often through selling their homes or missed the legislation that allowed the local NHS to raiding inheritance funds—in order to pay for their care create care trusts, in which social care and NHS funds in retirement. More than 2 million pensioners do not are indeed pulled together and spent exactly as he claim money from the benefits and credits system even suggests. though they qualify for it. So, whatever the Minister says, I am afraid that the system is not working to address the problem of pensioner poverty. Greg Mulholland: There are some interesting pilots taking place in parts of the country, but that simply will not deal with the institutional divide in Whitehall, Mr. Graham Stuart: The hon. Gentleman is making which I am afraid will take a lot longer to shift. powerful points about the position of the many pensioners who live in poverty in Britain today. Is he aware that the I now turn to the Green Paper, and I shall again Institute for Fiscal Studies predicted—in 2007, before quote the Prime Minister. Let us bear in mind that we the current downturn—that there would be no change are now nine months away from a general election, yet in the proportion of pensioners living in poverty in the the Prime Minister says: next 10 years? I believe that the figure was one in five. “What is now needed is a major debate about the challenge we face and the options for addressing it…This is the start of a Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for process for discussion rather than the end”. that interesting figure. The reality is that the number of That is extraordinary. The Green Paper should have pensioners living in poverty in this country was increasing been published many years ago. If the warm words said even before we got into the recession, so as the recession before the 1997 general election meant anything, we bites, there is real concern about what will happen to the would have had such a Green Paper published during most vulnerable people in our society. the first years of the Labour Government. 383 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 384

The Secretary of State made a big plea for consensus Greg Mulholland: I thank the right hon. Gentleman yesterday, saying that we must all work together. Frankly, for clarifying that technicality. I was talking about the I am afraid that nine months before a general election, partnership ideal, but I accept that our policy is a in the dying days of a Government, is absolutely not the version, based on the Wanless model, of what we believe time to be talking about needing consensus. to be genuine partnership. Let me quote the Prime Minister again. Back in 1993, Christopher Fraser: I assume that during the election at the Labour party conference, he said: campaign the hon. Gentleman will be explaining in his “I want the next Labour Government to achieve what in 50 own words how his party is going to offer free social years of the welfare state has never yet been achieved—the end of care to the elderly—and how that will be costed. the means test for our elderly people”. I am afraid that, twelve and a half years into the present Greg Mulholland: I will, of course, tell the House Government, that is very much not the case. what my party policy is—and, unlike the hon. Gentleman’s Let me now turn to the Conservatives— party, we have one! The reality is that the Government have no timetable. Mr. Drew: Will the hon. Gentleman give way, briefly? We are told in the Green Paper that there will be a White Paper in 2010. Will it be in January, February or Greg Mulholland: I will. March? If it is any later than January, are we not talking about a Labour party manifesto commitment rather Mr. Drew: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity. than a White Paper? The Government know full well An argument that I have not heard advanced so far is that they will be able to do absolutely nothing to implement that care should be about quality. I think that one thing the proposals. that the Government have tried to do is drive up quality, Let me cite what Age Concern and Help the Aged although what they have done may not be perfect. It have said: may, for instance, have resulted in the closure of facilities “While agreeing that a public debate is needed”— that, with the benefit of hindsight, the Government realised could have remained open. Nevertheless, we let us face it, most of us have been engaged in that should be trying to ensure that our older people experience debate for many years— quality, rather than just thinking about numbers. Does “the charity called on politicians…to set out definitive proposals the hon. Gentleman agree with that? for reform and a clear timetable for action as soon as possible.” Yet even in yesterday’s statement, we did not manage to Greg Mulholland: I agree entirely with the hon. get that. What we now have is yet more warm words and Gentleman’s sentiments, but I am afraid that if he spoke more commitments to achieve things that the Government to all the elderly people in the country he would find know they cannot deliver. that they were not receiving quality services. What they At least we achieved a U-turn on Monday on the are receiving is patchy services that are very different in mandatory retirement age. I welcome that, and the fact different areas, along with different entitlements. All the that the review will be brought forward. It is important, surveys conducted by older people’s organisations make particularly in a recession, to allow older people who so it clear that the quality of care is as important as its wish the dignity of continuing with their working lives. funding, but the two must be seen together. It is simply At least that is now on the agenda, whereas when I not realistic to suggest that we can secure better quality questioned the Minister some months ago, the idea was services without facing up to the difficult issues of directly rebutted. Let us hope that in this Government’s funding. remaining months, we will see further U-turns to bring about changes that will help older people. Mr. Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) asked about my party’s policy. I am very pleased Greg Mulholland: I will, although I am conscious of to tell him; we announced our policy last year. As a the need to allow others to speak. party, we think it important to engage in the debate and say what our policy is. Our policy involves a universal care guarantee—a partnership model based on the excellent Mr. Stuart: I will try to be brief. King’s Fund Wanless report, which the Government The truth is that under this Labour Government, the ignored. [Interruption.] It is costed, absolutely. I would local authority bar for access to care has risen repeatedly be delighted to send hon. Members a copy. We remain because of the funding position. Care has been removed committed to ensuring that those who are least able to from those with moderate or even quite serious needs. It pay get all their care paid for, but that everyone receives is necessary for people to be at the top end of the care a minimum entitlement to care. That is set out in the need scale before they have access to local authority Wanless report and is now in the Green Paper, which is care, thanks to the actions of this Government. welcome, but it should have been in a Green Paper and up for discussion back in 2006. Greg Mulholland: Indeed. I do not think that the burden placed on local authorities is taken seriously Mr. Dorrell: I think that the hon. Gentleman may enough in this place. We need mutual minimum entitlements have made an inadvertent error in suggesting that the for people throughout the country, to prevent a different Wanless proposal for a guaranteed minimum financed quality of care from being provided in different areas. by the taxpayer was in the Green Paper. It absolutely One would think that the Conservatives—especially was not. The Wanless version of the partnership model as they called for the debate—would want to lead it by is not one of the Government’s canvassed options. revealing their proposals for care in this country. I must 385 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 386

[Greg Mulholland] that on this rare occasion when I am able to speak in the House I would talk about elderly care, as that matters a say that I find their attitude rather barefaced. Although great deal to me, partly because of members of my I do not agree with the Government on many aspects of family, but also because of constituents of mine, some this policy area, the Conservatives’ criticism of the of whom have had good experiences and some of whom Government for not having a policy is amazing, given have not. that they have no policy whatever themselves. Having seen the Green Paper and some of the statements The shadow Secretary of State for Health, the hon. made in the House, I particularly wanted to take advantage Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), said of the opportunity given to me by the Opposition—I on the “Today” programme how late the Green Paper am grateful to them for that—to say what I think needs was, and of course that is true. He also said: to be done on elderly care in the round. I want to pay “We will come forward with a clear proposal by the next tribute to the Government for what has happened already, election if the Government don’t.” because we would think from listening to today’s debate That, I think, exposes the reality of the Conservative that nothing had happened in the past 12 and a half position, which I am afraid is typical “substanceless” years—but actually a great deal has happened. new Tory. It is very much like the Labour party’s position I can remember—Members have to acknowledge this—a in 1995-96. It is strong on warm words and spin, but time when in homes we would think, “My goodness, I very empty on policy. Of course, this is the party that hope I never end up here.” I still think that about some abolished the link between pensions and earnings, and homes, and we have to do something about that. Having led us into the care system that we have now. The crisis said that, however, there are homes in my constituency with an ageing population was perfectly visible then, that have changed beyond recognition, and I pay tribute but the Conservatives did nothing to prepare for it. to those people in my constituency and the officers on We have approximately nine months left before the the council who have worked closely together on that. general election, and we are being asked to start a The local authority and the staff of those homes have discussion about care. We are being asked to wait worked hard to change the system entirely. As a result, possibly six years for fundamental change to the pension we now have assessment centres so that when people system, such as a restoration of the link with earnings. leave hospital they can be properly assessed and we can This is not a time for discussions, let alone the start of ensure that they get the proper care that they then need. discussions; this is a time for firm policy commitment. Sadly, that is not the case throughout the country. I The Secretary of State for Health tripped himself up have been very saddened when I have seen people who yesterday. Having said that we want consensus—the are not my constituents not receiving that level of care; title of the Green Paper is “Shaping the future of care some of them have been relatives of constituents of together”—he said that at the next election all the mine, who have asked me to intervene on their behalf. parties would put their proposals to the electorate. We have seen some high-profile cases on editions of the Frankly, is that not what a Green Paper at this stage is “Panorama” programme and elsewhere, so we cannot all about, because it can deliver no change for people in say with hand on heart that all our older people have our country before this Government leave office some had a life of dignity and care—the sort of life we would time next spring? want for members of our own families. Some people We need real decisions that will affect older people’s have starved or have suffered elder abuse, and we must lives to be made now. We need to bring forward the say that in this day and age that sort of thing must stop. decision to restore the link between pensions and earnings. It has saddened me a bit that this House has not taken We need clear policies for how we will deal with the care just a little while to talk about that and what we need to crisis that is ruining older people’s lives now. We have do. heard quite enough warm words, but older people know I have not had enough time to digest all of this Green that this country currently does not adequately value Paper, but from what I have read I have seen the them. beginning of what could tackle some of the issues. This country has some fantastic people whose brains we ought to be using in order to bring together what we 5.35 pm could be doing, but I still wish to make suggestions in Kali Mountford (Colne Valley) (Lab): I have been a order to take things further. The idea of having personalised Member in this House for a little while now, and during care has been talked about for some time, but it has not that time I have discussed demographic change on been properly delivered. Such care has been delivered in many occasions. The hon. Member for Eastbourne some places, but it has not been delivered everywhere (Mr. Waterson) has been in the Chamber for some of and it has not been delivered to the standard that all of those debates, and we have had several exchanges about us have wanted. We would all want the best for our the need to look ahead at what we must do for people in mother if she was in care, yet we would have to say that the future. It is therefore a little remiss to have forgotten we have encountered cases in our constituency mailbags those occasions and instead to spend all our time talking where the care provided has not been good enough. about what we must do on pensions and pensioners as if What in the Green Paper would make the situation that is all that needs to be addressed on the subject of better? Having one standard of care for everybody elderly care—because the subject of today’s debate is below which we cannot drop must be a good thing, but elderly care, not pensions. how are we going to make it work? Where the only I thought for a while that I had wandered by mistake other member of an elderly person’s family is themselves into a session on leaflet-writing for the forthcoming old and frail, how could that person ensure that the care Norwich by-election. That distressed me a little, because provided is top-notch? How could that person stand up I had made a promise to people very important to me to everybody in the system, given that the system sometimes 387 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 388 feels overwhelmingly large? I think that the relevant the home that they have always treasured has had to be body is now called the Care Quality Commission, but sold. So I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman because there are so many names in the system these was making. days people going into homes may not know the right In a roundabout way, that has brought me to the name to give and may feel quite belittled by the system. point that I was going to make about funding in general. Can the family member be sure that they are asking the When people are feeling vulnerable—and it is that right question? Do they know who to ask for? Are we vulnerability that I wanted the House to consider—they really empowering people in the right way? Do we do not know where to go or to whom to turn. That is perhaps need something akin to what we have in the where the notion of advocacy comes in. In cases that I health service? Do we perhaps need a patient advice and have looked at, the system has not always worked out as liaison service in the social care system? Could we be people expect. They have gone to people and asked for considering that in this Green Paper, so that there can help, but they have been a little let down— be advocacy for people in the care system and so that in future we do not have people who feel that they have Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The House has been not been fed properly? listening to the hon. Lady with great respect, but in My mailbag, like those of other hon. Members, has fairness to other hon. Members we have to move on. contained cases where someone has felt that their relative had not been properly fed, had not received enough drink and had not received the proper care. Those 5.47 pm people may have felt that their relative died inappropriately Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): I wish to and too soon because of the care that they did or did follow the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) not receive. If such people feel that and then cannot in adopting a relatively non-adversarial tone, but obtain answers, they will never believe that their loved nevertheless addressing some of the core issues that are one died in the way that anybody would want their at the heart of the debate that the Government seek on loved one to die, and we cannot have that in our system this sensitive issue. today. The truest words spoken in the House this afternoon have been by the former Minister for Pensions, the right Dr. McCrea: Would the hon. Lady give way? hon. Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks), who acknowledged that this subject has been avoided Kali Mountford: I shall do my best to sit down, if the by Governments for the previous 25 years. It is therefore hon. Gentleman will give me a moment to do so. true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) said from the Front Bench, that it is Dr. McCrea: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. disappointing that a Government who came in pledged Does the situation not grow worse, and is insult not to action on the subject, which was certainly unfinished added to injury, when some elderly people have sold or business when I left office as Secretary of State 12 years have had to sell their house to get that care, yet still find ago, are only now introducing a Green Paper and themselves in a situation where they are not getting seeking a national debate. I am happy to enter into that nourishment, proper food and nutrition? debate, because it is a hugely important issue. The central problem, of course, and the reason why Kali Mountford: I understand exactly what the hon. Governments have consistently failed to address the Gentleman is saying, but I have read the Green Paper issue, is not that it is difficult to express the aspiration—the and I feel that the Government are making three interesting Green Paper expressed many of the aspirations accurately, proposals. It is right for us to debate the new proposals and I could have used much of the same language and see what we can do to change the situation that he myself. The key issue is how we produce the resources describes. The people in the cases in my postbag have necessary to deliver the services that we all aspire to been receiving NHS care, so that situation has not provide for our elderly citizens. arisen because such care is paid for. I know that some I agree with the Green Paper’s emphasis on the people have not been in that position, but usually where importance of carers. As one of my hon. Friends said someone is having to be fed, an NHS paid-for place is earlier, elderly people can be carers not only for their involved. I can see that he looks quizzical and does not elderly relatives—often their spouses or partners—but agree with me, but the places in the cases I am discussing important sources of care for other members of the have involved NHS care. I understand the point that he wider family community. Engaging in a proper discussion is making, however. If he has experience of different about how to use the voluntary support available from a cases that have not been funded by the NHS, I take his wider understanding of family connections is an important point. part of this discussion. That is my first point. The Green Paper contains three options that we have My second point relates to my intervention on the all been asked to consider and debate. I have my own Minister on the subject of direct payments and to the preference, but we will have to have the debate. I hope rather larger subject of personalised care, about which that people will not have to choose between their homes the hon. Member for Colne Valley was talking. We and care in the future, but that has been the choice for must all have experience from our personal lives and in many years for many people, usually those in social care constituency surgeries of money being wasted because places. I would not want to make that choice. Personally, it has not been accurately used in a way that reflects the I have never wanted to inherit anything from my parents: individual preferences—I use that phrase as distinct I have wanted them to have the best care. However, I from a need calculated from a dispassionate point of have heard from relatives of Alzheimer’s sufferers that it view—of the service user. The importance of personalised is very distressing to know that they are unaware that care and, in particular, of the direct payment principle 389 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 390

[Mr. Stephen Dorrell] Dr. Ladyman: I am following the right hon. Gentleman’s argument with care. He is absolutely right: that is the is that it focuses resources on the delivery of service elephant in the room. That gap can be funded only from chosen and fashioned by the service user. In my view, public spending or from people’s savings—largely, the that is the best way of securing care that meets the money they have locked away in their property. Although service user’s needs. he may be justified in criticising the Government for not facing the elephant in the room, are not his hon. Friends, The third issue that I want to touch on briefly before who started this debate by implying that, somehow, I come on to what I have described as the core issue of people would never have to tap into their savings, equally resources is what has been called “a |National Care open to that criticism? Service”. The Government are extremely unclear in the Green Paper about what that phrase means. What, for example, is the role of the local authority in delivering a Mr. Dorrell: I agree with the hon. Gentleman to the national care service? Is it to be a service provider? Is it extent that the funding gap has to involve more private to have local discretion on commissioning? The Green resources—I totally agree with that. However, although Paper refers to the oft-used “postcode lottery”, which is it may be the policy prescription that he espouses, I do exactly the same concept as local discretion. Do the not think that it is necessarily true that those resources Government think that all exercise of local discretion is have to come out of the savings of retired people in merely a manifestation of the postcode lottery? If so, retirement. It is, to my mind, one of the unattractive do they aspire to a single, uniform national service or policy options canvassed by the Government that we are they willing to defend local differences of service should have a compulsory system that pays for provision and not dismiss every local difference as merely a exclusively through what is, in effect, a tax on elderly manifestation of the postcode lottery? people. I think that we should be encouraging people to look forward to their likely evolving need during their I would suggest to Ministers that the phrase “national working lives, and the secret to doing that lies in the entitlement” is extremely dangerous, as we have seen insurance system. not just from court cases in the social care field but from The Government identify what they describe as the broader debate about what the national health partnership funding. As I said in an intervention on the service should be providing as a national minimum Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for entitlement. The moment we get into a discussion about Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland), the Government’s the concept of a national entitlement, it becomes extremely definition of partnership funding is different in an difficult to produce services in a local area that reflect important respect from Wanless’s definition of partnership accurately the needs of people in that area and represent funding. As it happens, I am more on the side of the an efficient use of the resources available. Those resources Government than I am of Wanless in that debate. will be different in different parts of the country for a However, the Government identify partnership funding variety of difficult historical reasons and the needs that as one option and then imply that insurance is a different arise will be different because of the nature of different option. I think that they are wrong to imply that they local communities. are different; in fact, they are one and the same option. The concept of a “National Care Service”—the balance In my view, the Government’s refashioning the resource between the national definition and local delivery and that is currently provided from the Exchequer—using between national priorities and local priorities—is not Government money more effectively—in partnership made any easier by the introduction of initial capital with private resources will, if the Government develop a letters. With respect to Ministers, all the difficult questions proper policy, automatically lead to an insurance market attached to that phrase are left unanswered by this that allows resources to be mobilised in a way that is Green Paper. significantly fairer than trying to pay for the provision from a tax on pensioners, which is what I understand I now come to the fundamental issue of resources. In the Government’s so-called comprehensive option to 2006, Wanless analysed the resource implications of be. The core challenge, which the Government acknowledge moving from social care provision, which we acknowledge but do not face head-on, is to use existing public resources does not deliver what we would want it to deliver to more effectively and in a way that enlists private resources elderly people, to either what he called scenario 1, which in order to fill the Wanless funding gap. was the current basic level projected forward for another 15 years, or scenario 2, which met the current aspiration The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil projected forward for another 15 years. One can follow Hope): I am loth to intervene, but the right hon. Gentleman the arithmetic with decimal points, but in back-of-the- seems to be arguing for option 2, which is the insurance envelope numbers Wanless identified a funding gap of model—partnership with a voluntary option. What does £20 billion emerging over 15 years. That funding gap of he see as the strengths and weaknesses of that option in £20 billion is the elephant in the drawing room. It is the the longer term? reason why, 12 years on, we have a call from Ministers for a national debate. It is the reason why we have not had the action promised by Tony Blair at the Labour Mr. Dorrell: The key strength of a link between party conference of 1997. partnership and insurance is that more private resources are unlocked for an area where I see no alternative The Government say that it is impossible for tax source of funding available to meet the requirement, funding to fill that gap—in their phrase, that is “ruled and those resources are levied in a way that is fairer out”—and I agree with them. I suspect that the Liberal than the other options offered by the Government, Democrats still believe that it is possible—through a because the insurance system allows people to contribute penny on income tax, no doubt. during their working lives. That is why my hon. Friends 391 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 392 and I have repeatedly tabled different versions of insurance- Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): Will the hon. based schemes that work in partnership with the public Gentleman give way? sector. That is where the answer to the conundrum lies. What is disappointing is that, 12 years on, we are still Dr. Ladyman: In one moment. I was just about to be taking about the concepts, rather than the detail of the rude to the Liberal Democrats; let me do that first, and legislation. As the Minister knows, a version of that then I will certainly give way. The Liberal Democrats legislation was left in the desk of the incoming Secretary have at least changed their position now, but for a of State in 1997. I no longer sign up to every detail of number of years they gave the worst of misdirections that legislation, but it was a long way on then from to the people of this country by implying that social where we are now. care could be made free sustainably; they did so in the past couple of general elections, when clearly that 6pm was never an option. We should have been honest with people about that, and so should the Liberal Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): I Democrats. sometimes think that I am a little bit too naive for this job. When I saw on the Order Paper the subject that the Opposition had chosen for debate, I thought, “Ah, they Paul Holmes: I was going to agree with the hon. realise that the Green Paper is coming out, and they Gentleman absolutely until he made his last point. want to make a contribution on it in a debate.” It was Everything that he says about Conservative policy, only when I got to the Chamber that I realised that the about the fact that the origins of the problems lie in debate was intended to be a statement to the people of what the Conservatives did in the 1980s, and about the by-election constituency, Norwich, North. their lack of an answer now is true. However, is the hon. Gentleman—a former Minister—happy that after Before I try to follow the right hon. Member for 12 years of a Labour Government we have the worst Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), and comment on his pensions in western Europe, 20 per cent. of pensioners constructive comments and on the very thoughtful and in poverty, and still no answer on the question of care impressive comments of my hon. Friend the Member for the elderly? All we get, after 12 years, is another for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford), let me say a little discussion paper that will come to nothing until after bit in response to the way in which the debate opened. the next election. If people in Norwich, North are listening to this debate to help make up their mind how to vote, let me Dr. Ladyman: I am not happy if one single pensioner remind them that it was the Conservatives who broke is in poverty, but I know that, thanks to this the link with pensions. They then attacked the Government, far fewer are living on low incomes than Government’s tax changes, and the impact that those in 1997, because there is pension credit and winter fuel changes had on definable benefit pension schemes, but payments. I have not been to Norwich in the run-up to they never point out that it was their Government who the by-election, but I have knocked on an awful lot of gave employers payment holidays, which accounted for doors in the past few months, and poorer pensioners, a large part of the black hole in pension pots. Of to a man and woman, say to me that they are better off course, the Conservatives never explicitly say that they than they were. They recognise that the Government will change those tax arrangements to refill the pot, have targeted resources on them. Means-testing may be because they are not going to do that. They do not inefficient, and we might wish that we could do mention that it was they who opposed the introduction otherwise, but it has meant that we have been able to of pension credits. help the poorer people in society. The Conservatives raise issues such as Equitable Life I turn now to the issues thrown up by yesterday’s and try to give the impression that if they were in social care Green Paper. power, they would find £5 billion with which to compensate all Equitable Life pensioners. I have some Mr. Graham Stuart: The hon. Gentleman has said Equitable Life pensioners in my constituency, and I that pensioners are better off, but we have had 12 years hope that we will treat them generously, but the of economic growth so of course they are—although Conservative party really should not try to give the still far too many are in poverty. Does he agree that impression that it will give a blank cheque to those social care received only a 1 per cent. increase in the pension holders when clearly it will not. The Treasury’s spending provisions, which in real terms was Conservatives keep telling us that they want honesty a cut? It was separated from NHS spending, but should about public spending in the debate, yet today they not the two be joined together in future? have tried to imply that every pensioner will be better off. They have even tried to fudge the difference between means-tested benefits and universal benefits. Dr. Ladyman: I certainly think that we need to bring They tried to give the impression to people who funding for the NHS and for social care together in currently do not get means-tested benefits that the various ways. I was going to make the following point Conservatives will move to universal benefits, and that later anyway, but will make it now instead: we already everybody will get something, without being honest to have a model that could help us to do that. We do not the people on means-tested benefits about the fact that need to reinvent the wheel, because we have done the if one does that, the pot of money has to be distributed same thing for children. more thinly, and the poorest in society will get less. The Children’s trusts have been created to bring together people of Norwich, North would be well advised to all the resources—for education, social care and so take what has been said today by Conservative on—that are focused on children. That is the Members with a substantial pinch of salt. That also responsibility of the directors of the children’s trusts. applies to the Liberal Democrats— We have also introduced the idea of care trusts. Local 393 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 394

[Dr. Ladyman] design older-people-friendly town centres, so that older people have an incentive to move from remote areas can voluntarily create care trusts, in which NHS accommodation into their own accommodation but in resources and social care resources from the local the town centre, where it is far easier to provide them council are pooled together. What we have not yet with the care services that they want? done, but ought to, is say that that approach should no longer be voluntary. We should say that adult care Richard Younger-Ross: Will the hon. Gentleman give trusts must be created everywhere, with each one way? having a director of adult care services responsible for pulling together funding from the NHS and local Dr. Ladyman: Very quickly, because I do not have councils and making sure that it is spent most any more injury time. effectively. That is a way in which we can reduce the cost of social care. Richard Younger-Ross: Will the former Minister One thing was missing from yesterday’s Green Paper. answer the question about how we deal with rural areas We have identified the options for funding social care where people want to live in their community? He and how we might move forward on them, and I seems to suggest that such people should move to the applaud the Government for grasping that nettle and towns. being prepared to open the debate, but the Green Paper did not really put forward ideas for minimising the Dr. Ladyman: I am absolutely not suggesting that, growth in the costs of social care. but many people live in suburbs and around towns and By the middle of the century, four times as many are happy to be urban dwellers. Some people may be people will be needing care than now. The fastest happy to move from rural to urban communities, and if growing demographic consists of people over the age of they want to do so that is fine, but we can still organise 100: if we are spending £12 billion to £15 billion a year services differently around rural communities to now on social care, we will be spending £60 billion in minimise cost. Telecare is one option. Where are our today’s terms by the middle of the century. That cannot proposals to ensure that every older person is entitled be afforded, so as well as identifying ways to fill the to a package of telecare? If one lives in a remote rural social care spending gap identified by the right hon. cottage, one could make feasible the provision of care Member for Charnwood, we have to look at how we in one’s home environment through telecare. Perhaps can minimise that spending. that should be the universal option that we put forward. Basically, the models in yesterday’s Green Paper suggest that people should put a certain amount of I mentioned earlier direct payments, of which I am a money into the pot and that the Government will meet great fan. The right hon. Member for Charnwood the rest of the costs, but that does not include any rightly mentioned that the Conservatives introduced incentive for people to organise their lives in a way that them, but they made it only optional for councils to minimises their care costs. They can continue to live in offer them; we made it compulsory for councils to do the biggest houses in the remotest parts of our so, and compulsory for councils to give such payments constituencies and expect care workers to travel out to to individuals who requested them. We should continue deliver care. Effectively, that will be at great expense to to do that, but the ultimate direct payment is the Government: the liability falling on individuals will attendance allowance: it is not means-tested; it is a be capped, with the result that the public sector will universal benefit with a national eligibility criteria. It is have to step in and meet the costs. the ultimate direct payment; it is simply not called a direct payment at the moment. How are we to incentivise people to organise their lives more sensibly? One option that I am very keen to One worrying proposal in the Government’s Green promote is extra care housing. First of all, it means Paper is the option that we take the money from that people remain independent, because they stay in attendance allowance and put it into a pot to pay for their own homes and do not have to live in residential the social care service. If we are serious about direct care homes. They can access care as and when they payments, all we will do if we adopt that proposal is need it, but the system means that care-providing take attendance allowance off people with our left organisations can model the care around the fact that hand and, calling it something else, give it back to them people who need it are all in a relatively small place. with our right hand,. It would be far better just to call it attendance allowance, leave it as it is and recognise The extra care housing environment is a very that it is in place to pay for that first element of efficient way to deliver care, yet councils around the somebody’s care. country are still allowing developers to build ordinary, warden-assisted housing everywhere. Ninety per cent. Finally, the Supporting People budget needs to be of all the accommodation for older people that is being brought into the debate, too. The way in which we built is still simple assisted-living accommodation, with provide help through that budget is another element of no element of care service provision. Therefore, we the package which we have not addressed. I commend should change the planning laws, so that local councils to Members the debate that my hon. Friend the can say, “No, you can’t build this accommodation as Minister wants, and I commend the Government’s just warden-assisted accommodation. You have to have amendment. care services delivered there as a way to help with that aspect of reducing costs.” 6.13 pm When can we expect councils, as part of their Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): planning duties, to design their town centres around I shall try to confine my remarks, to make them what I like to call “liveability” for older people, and relatively short and, in the spirit of my right hon. 395 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 396

Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), to suspect that thousands of elderly people in residential avoid the partisan rhetoric in which it is too tempting care are affected by dementia. I fear that the curious to engage on the eve of a by-election. I was, if I may assessment system that decides who falls under the say so, struck by the sincerity and dignity with which health category and who falls under the social care the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) category is also, to a large extent, a deception. The addressed the House, and if I were tempted to engage system is variously interpreted in different parts of the in the debate in a partisan spirit, her presence here, country and one senses that the lower the Government listening to me, would shame me into not doing so. social care grant for a local authority, the more people This is a profoundly serious debate. As somebody who should be paid for from the health budget are in with a 97-year-old grandmother, who lives near me, the homes of that authority. whom I am responsible for, who is in residential care, I make criticisms of that, but I understand its springs who has gone through the often bruising experience of and origins; it comes down to a shortage of money. I losing a great many assets and who is now, I am afraid, said that we had made a breakthrough in this debate afflicted by dementia, I must say that the problem is all and the run-up to it: it is that I have yet to detect too present and real to my family and to me. This anybody who seriously contests the notion that all debate is therefore not one in which I can engage with parties must make a frank and candid admission to the any light or bantering tone. Plainly, the situation that country. It is that we cannot conceivably fund these afflicts my grandmother as she descends into dementia measures through taxation, and if both sides of the afflicts tens of thousands of people throughout the House start from that point, we will at least have the country, and they look to this House not for party beginning of a consensus—the start of a foundation on point-scoring, although hon. Members in all parts of which we can build a policy. the House have engaged in such activity in good humour today, but for solutions. I have yet to detect that; indeed, the Liberal Democrats went to the country at the last general I have been struck by something in this debate: we election with a policy based on precisely that position. seem to have made a breakthrough. In recent years, it That reminds me of Harold Macmillan—I am going to has been particularly depressing to note that there has indulge in a little badinage, but I hope it is been an element of deception in how we have good-humoured—saying that the Liberals are full of approached the foundation of public policy on this original and practical ideas, but the problem is that the issue. Indeed, the more I have come to play a part in the original ones are not practical and the practical ones system under which we now operate—on behalf of are not original. One has to say that the policy with constituents and personally—the more apparent it has which the Liberal Democrats went to the country three become that the system has become cruelly deceptive of or four years ago was not practical. I am delighted to those who operate in it. For example, carers are said to hear that they are no longer wedded to it, given that be entitled to an assessment and a carer’s package. even their own party members considered it to be based How often do we Members experience that as a reality on a deception. as we carry out our constituency functions? In the rural part of the south-west that I have the honour to We cannot go on suggesting to the people of this represent, it is more of a declaration than a reality. country that we can sustain elderly and social care on In Devon, part of which I represent, it is not true to the basis of taxation. I agree with my right hon. Friend say that when a person has exhausted their assets they the Member for Charnwood that there must be a can choose a home or remain in the home in which balance. I am going to risk provoking the concern of they have been resident. If the county council will not my Front-Bench colleagues by saying that we need to pay the fee associated with such homes, more and more use public funds more effectively. I say to the Minister families end up digging into their own pockets to top that I am not speaking for my party, so let him not up the amounts that the county council will pay. make too much of this. I participated in a Select Alternatively, a benevolent fund or charity—whomever Committee that looked into fuel poverty and asked, one can find—becomes involved. “Are we making enough of the public funds?” and “Are we directing them and making them more effective?” The alternative with which the resident is presented That Labour-dominated Committee decided in its is that of moving from a home in which he or she has report, which I commend to the Minister, that we were become happy, or at least contented and used to. That not making effective use of the public means at our is cruel. Having paid all they can and descended disposal. In my judgment, winter fuel payments should beneath the relevant threshold of assets, the resident not be paid to those on higher-rate tax bands. It comes to the system. In many parts of the country— makes no sense to do that, and we could save about particularly in Devon, which has the sixth worst social £250 million by not doing so—a small amount, but it care grant in the country—they find that the reality is would be a start. We are not making effective use of the not what they were led to expect, which was that the many different allowances that are—I fully accept state would provide for them in their straitened this—designed and targeted to relieve the poverty of circumstances. the aged, including fuel poverty. On top of that, we Far too many in residential care are affected by should, as my right hon. Friend the Member for serious conditions such as dementia; the hon. Member Charnwood suggested, adopt an insurance system over for Colne Valley spoke a little about that, but did not and above a particular threshold. go into detail. My grandmother is in a home, clearly suffering from moderate, and increasingly severe, dementia. That is not, we are told, a matter for the Dr. Ladyman: If the insurance had to be paid while health service and it is extremely difficult for her to one was working, which seemed to be the suggestion of access the mental health services that might assist her. I the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), 397 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 398

[Dr. Ladyman] and “Confusion over relationship between high band RNCC— and if it were made compulsory, how would it differ registered nursing care contribution— from national insurance, which is effectively just another tax? “and fully funded continuing care.” The whole thing was an absolute nightmare, and I hope Mr. Cox: Plainly, the detail needs to be examined. I that the Green Paper will set about solving some of the can think of solutions through the insurance system problems. that would not necessarily mean that the money was I shall quickly go through one or two of the lost if one did not subsequently have to call on the recommendations that the Committee made. Early in insurance fund, and other techniques could be used. the report, we stated: The danger is that there would be no incentive to “We therefore recommend that the Government’s review of engage in it. However, it would be retrograde and continuing care funding arrangements take the form of a full, unfortunate simply to have a tax on those who were formal public consultation, in line with Cabinet Office elderly or a tax on their estates; we must look for recommendations.” alternatives to that. It appears that, thank goodness, we have got there now. The silver lining that I perceive in this debate, starting We asked the question from a position of far less expertise than those who “what is health and what is social care”, have participated in examining the problem in government, and we got no meaningful answer, so we moved on to is that we have all been able candidly to accept—nobody the absolutely obvious, stating: has sought to argue otherwise—that we will need a “We strongly recommend that the Government remove once system that is based at least partly on the private and for all the wholly artificial distinction between a universal financing of those affected. If we can build on that as a and free health care service operating alongside a means-tested starting point for this policy, we then have a responsibility and charged for system of social care.” to develop it. Twelve years ago, the former Prime Minister We got the answer that we expected from the Government, came into government promising that he would solve as the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) this problem. It is a bit late for the Labour Government might think: to produce a policy now, but I am glad that they have, “If by recommending that the Government remove the distinction because at least we can all begin to talk about this an between health and social care, the Committee is really recommending adult and sensible way and to say to the public that it the removal of means testing for care services, then this would can no longer be done on the basis of public means and have significant cost implications.” direct taxation. The cost implications that we identified then were a mere £1.5 billion, estimated to rise to more than £3 billion by 2020, not taking into account the costs of looking 6.24 pm after patients, such as food and residence costs. The Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): At the beginning figure of £20 billion is possibly more nearly correct, and of the debate, I was quite depressed by the partisan that is obviously quite unaffordable from taxation. There nature of the contributions, so I am delighted to speak appears to be a general consensus about that. towards the end and follow three or four excellent The Government are to be congratulated on the fact contributions that show the willingness of Members on that at a time of recession, they have introduced a both sides of the House to take this matter seriously. I Green Paper inviting consultation on how we can find welcome the debate as an attempt to look at the problems the money. I cannot help hoping that that spills over of long-term care realistically, sensibly and openly, and, into the national health service as a whole, because we I hope, to achieve consensus. have to ration money for the NHS as well. I absolutely agree that the proposals have been rather slow in coming. I have spent quite a bit of time looking Mr. Graham Stuart: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s back at the Select Committee on Health’s report on desire not to be partisan in spirit. I put it to him that continuing care, published in April 2005. I had to one reason for some of the venom on the Conservative examine the membership of the Committee to ensure Benches is that this important debate has been launched that the Secretary of State himself was not a member at nine months before an election, when it will be impossible that time, because, as far as I can see, most of the to get consensus. Even if it were possible, it would not recommendations in that report are covered in the be possible to get legislation arising from it. The frustration Government’s proposals and the Green Paper. is about the Government’s failure in previous years to I shall go through one or two of those recommendations bring the consultation forward, although it is welcome and what we discovered. The frequently identified problems whenever it comes. were listed at the time: Dr. Taylor: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I agree that “Inconsistency of criteria between PCTs/SHAs”— the consultation is too late and has been a long time primary care trusts and strategic health authorities— coming, but I still hope that it may lead to some “leading to inequity. movement forward. Gap between eligibility criteria on paper and application and The Health Committee’s recommendations in 2005 interpretation in practice. went on to urge Inconsistent approaches to assessment and a lack of fit with “a single, universal set of national eligibility criteria for continuing the Single Assessment Process. care to end the inequities and inconsistencies that have developed Inaccessible or incomprehensible criteria (both for professionals as a result of the current system.” and patients). The situation was ridiculous. There were two separate Concerns over exclusion of many chronic needs (especially systems for assessing eligibility for fully funded NHS dementia) because of focus on physical care”, care and for assessing the need for the registered nursing 399 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 400 care contribution. I hope that the Green Paper will debate to ask the Minister two questions, which need to address all those matters and, most importantly, genuinely be asked with only three sitting days left before we tackle the problem of resources. break for the summer recess. With your indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, at the The first relates to a commitment that was made last last moment, I will consider a rather different aspect of June by the Minister’s predecessor immediately to produce care of the elderly, which is incredibly important. The a paper on prescribing anti-psychotic medication to reason for allowing myself perhaps to digress is that the people who suffer from dementia. That scandalous motion uses the words, “encourage respect” and practice affects more than 100,000 people a year in care “promote security and dignity in old age”, homes, and it probably accounts for the premature deaths of around 23,000 elderly people up and down and the Green Paper has the important subtitle, the country. It is clear from the evidence that has been “Independence”. compiled over many years that such drugs cut lives What do independent elderly people living alone short, that they result in strokes and that they cause need, as well as peace of mind about long-term care? many of the symptoms that are then used to justify yet They need the security of knowing how to access more prescribing. Government action on this issue is appropriate acute care and that they will be cared for long overdue, so will the Minister tell us when the now expertly and appropriately in the right setting. One of overdue report on prescribing will be published and the the disadvantages of the rapid changeover of Ministers necessary action that will be taken? in the Department of Health is that, just when one has My second point is about the Government’s commitment got a particular Minister to recognise something important, to do something about elder abuse more generally and he moves on. I am referring to the right hon. Member put in place new measures to tackle that scandal. Some for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), with whom I have had more 342,000 people a year are the victims of elder abuse in than one debate about access to emergency care. That is this country. That is a scandalous tally, and it does not particularly important for the elderly. even include those in care homes or those with dementia. I want to put it on the record, so that current Ministers I would therefore like the Minister to tell us when he do not forget, that they are working towards a single, expects the “No Secrets” review to release a publication. three-digit telephone number, which will allow the elderly The codes of practice for consultation—codes to which to know that they do not have to traipse round the the Government say they adhere—suggest that a publication minor injuries unit or an accident and emergency should have come out in April. However, we have seen department or to look for out-of-hours care. They can no analysis of the responses to the consultation, nor ring the number, which will point them to the correct have we seen any indication of the Government’s proposals. pathway. That is the first thing that I do not want to be I have heard that the intention is to smuggle out an forgotten. analysis in electronic form—a rather flawed and partial The second thing is also crucial for elderly people. analysis—of the consultation on “No Secrets” on the Let us imagine an elderly person found unconscious in Department of Health’s website tomorrow and that the street and taken to an A and E department. The first that will be done with no fanfare, no scrutiny and no thing casualty officers do is measure blood sugar because, indication of what actions will flow from it. It would time and again, that puts matters straight. They whop therefore be useful if the Minister were to confirm in the sugar and, if it does not work, they take further today that it is not the Government’s intention to do tests and discover that the person has terribly low blood that, that there will be full accountability to this House pressure and terribly low sodium. That raises all sorts of and that there will be a genuine effort to keep minds possibilities. If that patient were accompanied by an open to the case that has been made by the police, the electronic summary care record, the doctors would be Commission for Social Care Inspection and almost told the reason for the particular problems immediately. every statutory body that responded to the Government’s The electronic summary care record is crucial to quality consultation. Legislation should be introduced to put of care for the elderly, and I cannot understand why it the protection of vulnerable adults on a similar footing has been so delayed when we have an absolute model to the protection of children. Surely that should happen, for it in Canada, where there is, on a single computer because it is long overdue. screen under eight headings, all that an emergency Those are the two issues that I wished to bring to the doctor needs to know. I hope that Health Ministers will House’s attention. I hope that the Minister will do me recognise the importance of that. the honour of responding to those two points with I hope that, in the excitement of publishing the some reassurances this evening. elderly care Green Paper, those other matters will be remembered and that everybody will engage, especially, 6.37 pm as the right hon. Member for Charnwood has said, in working out how we can find the resources. Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): Like others, I pay tribute to those colleagues who have spoken in this debate, because many of us feel passionately 6.33 pm about this issue. Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I want In particular, I want to refer to something that the to contribute briefly to the debate in two particulars. hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), a former Many useful contributions have been made about the Minister, said about the Opposition motion. The issue proposals for paying for long-term care, and there is a has been on the Opposition agenda for some time. genuine sense of déjà vu about them. Not least, yesterday’s From where I am standing, I assure him that it is not in statement contained echoes of the statement made by a our motion, because of the Green Paper that was former Secretary of State in May 1996. I want to use the published yesterday. Partisan comments have passed 401 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 402

[Christopher Fraser] waiting for help from the Government have done their best to sort, but selling one’s home in an economically across the Chamber, but I am a Norfolk MP and make and financially difficulty environment is not the easiest no bones about it. The issues that affect people in option. Norwich equally affect people in my constituency, so I Some of the proposals in the Green Paper will not make no apology for bringing up that matter. suit people, because they will not be around to see the The fact is that elderly people feel vulnerable, but at benefit of them. There is no mention of people who are the same time people in Norfolk are proud people: they coming to the end of their lives having struggled to want dignity and respect in retirement; and they want manage. What are they to do? What is the Government’s the state there as a hand-up, not as a handout. The fact commitment to them? The Green Paper talks about the is—this comes up on the doorsteps—that there is much next generation, but we are talking about the here and social and economic deprivation across the county of now. The Green Paper goes some way towards dealing Norfolk. I have spoken to people in Norwich and in my with the problems, but it is too little, too late. own constituency, which is highly rural—Norfolk is a Norfolk is a good example of a local county council disparate county that covers eight constituencies of in a diverse county doing its best. It serves local farming various sizes—and they are concerned that what is communities, rural villages, larger towns and, of course, being proposed today is too little, too late. the city of Norwich. Long distances mean that costs go Tony Blair talked about the issue 12 years ago. I have up. People in my constituency, and in Norwich, will a quote here from a constituent who came to see me at need to decide in a couple of months’ time whether they my surgery: “It’s 12 years of hardship and misery—not can afford to fuel their homes or put food on the table. just for me, but for my family and all those people That is as bare as it gets, and it is a very difficult thing to whom I am now reliant on to give me the support I decide. cannot get from the state.” That is the fact of the matter, People feel very isolated, and they do not have to live and that is what we face every day. I encourage hon. in a rural community to do so. People who live in Members to listen more to constituents who say such terraced houses in streets with 150 other residents can things. That is not partisan; it is our job as Members of feel just as isolated if their neighbours have no respect Parliament to stand up in this House and represent for them and do not feel the need to knock on their those points of view, however people may see it from front door, and if local services do not have enough the Government Benches. I am doing this, because it is money to offer services such as meals on wheels. Other right for the people of my constituency and the people charitably based organisations sometimes cannot offer of Norwich. services to the community. People are making great At the end of the day, we have a growing elderly sacrifices in difficult times, and the Government must population, who realise that their pensions will not address that problem. The people of Norfolk and the cover the cost of care that they have to provide. They rest of the county—and, of course, the people of feel penalised as they go about their daily lives. They Norwich—deserve better. have made a contribution to the community and to society, and they have paid their taxes, yet in their hour 6.43 pm of need, they often feel that the rug has been pulled Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): We have had from beneath them. a wide-ranging debate that has been characterised by The families of many elderly people have moved thorough and thoughtful contributions from both sides away, because they can no longer afford to live next of the House. In addition to all our constituents, many door, so they can no longer invite their grandmothers, of us have parents, grandparents, other relations and grandfathers, uncles or aunts to live with them. Families friends for whom these subjects are a genuine reality. In have had to move because of work. My constituency that spirit, I pay particular tribute to the measured, covers 1,200 sq miles, and people can live very far away moving and brave speech by the hon. Member for from each other while remaining in the same constituency. Colne Valley (Kali Mountford). It was one of her Villages and rural areas often do not have a proper understandably rare speeches in the House, and we all infrastructure or a proper transport system. It is all very listened to it with great care. well to say that elderly people can get help from their The debate has also been characterised to some degree by families, but that is just not practical and it does not disappointment in the Government. That disappointment work. coalesces around the question: who has been in Government for the past 12 years? We must also ask who promised, Mr. Graham Stuart: Does my hon. Friend agree that 12 years ago, to deal with the very issues before us the black hole in finances and resources is such that the today. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne honest message must inevitably go out from this place (Mr. Waterson) opened the debate with an excellent that families need to do more to support their loved speech that covered the economic issues affecting pensioners ones in their old age? There is unlikely to be a solution and addressed the aspects of the motion that cover care that will provide the security that older people need of the elderly in the round. He pointed out that the without greater personal commitment from families. present Prime Minister promised to end the means test for elderly people, but had not done so. The Labour Christopher Fraser: I agree 100 per cent. with my hon. party promised in its 1997 manifesto that Friend. There is no doubt that families try. No matter “all pensioners should share fairly in the increasing prosperity of what their political persuasion or where they live, they the nation”, try to help each other as best they can. At the end of the and, as we saw on countless news bulletins last night, day, however, selling one’s own home to pay for care is Tony Blair told the 1997 Labour party conference that not the solution. Over the past 12 years, many people he did not want children to be 403 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 404

“brought up in a country where the only way pensioners can get informed by his experience of caring for his grandmother. long-term care is by selling their home”. They need to build consensus around agreement that On that latter point of care, it is not as if the Government social care in all its ramifications cannot be fully met have not had chances to deliver. On the subject of from taxation alone. caring for the elderly—the title of this debate—the I turn to the so-called models or options set out in Government set up a royal commission on long-term yesterday’s Green Paper. On the first, which the Government care as far back as 1999. In 2006 the King’s Fund call the partnership option, the House must be careful published the Wanless report, which set out the models about the choice of words. Derek Wanless described a and problems faced much more thoroughly than the partnership model, but for him, the Government would Government’s Green Paper published yesterday did. In pay a first section of the costs and would match-fund response to the Wanless review, the then Health Minister, the next section—an element that has slipped away in the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill the Green Paper. The insurance option is actually a (Mr. Byrne), who is now Chief Secretary to the Treasury, partnership plus, with insurance coming in to fill the announced a zero-based review. There is no evidence of gap. This was favoured by my right hon. Friend the any serious work being undertaken as a result of that; it Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), who spoke seems that it amounted to little more than kicking the authoritatively and reminded us that it has been 12 long problem into the long grass. years since a proposal was first promised by the Expectation then coalesced around the comprehensive Government. spending review in 2008— fuelled by comments by the From the Government’s presentation, it did not look then Minister, the hon. Member for Bury, South as though traditional insurance solutions would work, (Mr. Lewis), who is now a Foreign Office Minister. He so considerably more examination was needed. Inexplicably, said that the Department would however, the state-backed version of the insurance model “secure a fair and reasonable settlement as part of the comprehensive has not been modelled. Indeed, an impact assessment, spending review”—[Official Report, 21 February 2007; Vol. 457, signed by the Minister of State, Department of Health, c. 98WH.] the hon. Member for Corby (Phil Hope) who is about It did not: the spending review simply announced another to reply to the debate, said that all the benefits had been consultation. That consultation was launched by the properly assessed for impact. When we get to the Prime Minister in May 2008, in a speech to the King’s comprehensive model, however, it is equally problematic, Fund, in which he said: and the impact assessment admits that this model has “the government is publishing a consultation document setting not been specifically modelled. out the challenges we face and why we must now look again at the options for reforming our current system of care and support.” According to the impact assessments, it looks as though all the Government’s preferred solutions and I see that the Prime Minister also wrote a foreword to schemes assume that money is to be taken from abolishing yesterday’s Green Paper, which said: the attendance allowance. The Green Paper is blind on “What is now needed is a major debate about the challenge we this issue, so will the Minister explain what assumptions face and the options for addressing it. This Green Paper sets out the models make about the disability living allowance? those options and the principles which we must now consider. This is the start of a process of discussion rather than the end”. I shall now talk briefly about people with disabilities It is thus a fair question to ask just how many starts the who are under 65. Mike Smith, chair of the National Government need. We rightly ask that question, as my Centre for Independent Living, said yesterday: hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire “Disabled and older people were hoping for leadership from (Mr. Lansley) comprehensively did in his response to the government in care reform.” yesterday’s statement. It is clear that there are few ringing endorsements for Let me touch briefly on the question of consensus. the Government from the care sector. Indeed, it has Throughout this debate Ministers, including the Prime been pointed out that reform was urgent for 12 years Minister, have deployed the word “consensus”. The and remains so today, and that those under 65 with Prime Minister ended his King’s Fund speech by saying: lifetime care needs have been completely overlooked. “I look forward to building a consensus in this country about We need to ask the Government a question that they the best way ahead.” have sought to skate over, not least yesterday. They call But the Government’s record suggests that their this a national care service. The national health service understanding of the concept of consensus is to use it was extended throughout the United Kingdom from as a cloak when they are in trouble. At no point have the outset. Can the Minister explain what the Government’s they approached vast numbers of people in the third plans are as regards cross-border portability in social sector, let alone the official Opposition, to discuss the care in a national care service, when it is impossible for ways forward. As far as I know, they have not talked Members, or indeed Government policy, to impose formally even to the Liberal Democrats or others. One what the Government claim will be part of a national would have thought that that was hardly a way to build service on three parts of the United Kingdom? That a consensus. More importantly, the Government have question has yet to be answered. consistently withheld the work they have commissioned I hope that the Minister will also be able to tell us and paid for with taxpayers’ money, using it for political what provision the Green Paper makes for meeting the leaks rather than for informing public debate. costs of accommodation and food—the so-called hotel If this talk of consensus is to be more than warm costs. It is interesting that, having said that he would set words, the Government need to start building one, as out his own party’s policy, the hon. Member for Leeds, urged by the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) North-West (Greg Mulholland) failed to do so, because— and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for not least at the last general election—the Liberal Democrats Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox), who spoke powerfully, said that they would meet care costs, including “hotel 405 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 406

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] Let me deal first with welfare reform and financial well-being. Many Members have reminded us of our costs”, because that had worked in Scotland. It did not starting point. In 1997—10 years ago—pensioner poverty work in Scotland. Indeed, in answer to a question from was a national disgrace: 3 million older people were me in Westminster Hall, the hon. Member for Romsey living below the breadline, and the poorest had to (Sandra Gidley) put it on record—it is in the Official scrape by on £69 a week. Today, no one under 60 need Report—that the Liberal Democrats’ policy had been live on less than £130 a week. We have made huge dishonest, and that the writers of her party manifesto strides in providing help for older people. Every pensioner had used that approach. benefits from free off-peak bus travel, free television Lest anyone become carried away with the word licences and help with fuel bills. “consensus”, let me say that politics is about choices. The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) and Let me take this opportunity to explode the myth that other Conservative Members have tried to deny it, but Labour has been peddling about Conservative policies, we have seen glimpses of a future Tory Government, not least in Norwich, which I have visited twice. How with threats to those free services, and to the winter fuel many times has the Minister been there? Labour is payment in particular. He may wish to deny it, but we saying that we would cut pension credit, but that claim know differently, and so does the rest of the country. is dishonest. We have never said that we would cut On care and services for older people, two themes of pensions or pension credit. Labour is saying that we the Opposition contributions have been that the Green would scrap free television licences, but that claim too is Paper was too little too late, and that nothing has been dishonest. We have no plans to scrap free television done over the past 12 years. Let me put the record licences. Labour is claiming that we would scrap free straight. Through putting people first, more than £0.5 billion bus passes for the elderly, but we have no such plans, of extra investment is today allowing local authorities and it is dishonest to claim otherwise. to transform the way services are delivered, including Let us rise above Labour’s mischief, however. The through piloting new personal care budgets. I thought debate has given us all a chance to rededicate ourselves there was support throughout the House for that new to delivering, above all, independence, dignity, security direction in the delivery of social care. My hon. Friends and good-quality care to our elderly population. We the Members for Colne Valley and for South Thanet must all work towards that, and nothing less. It is the (Dr. Ladyman) both emphasised that it represented the job of our political generation to find the way forward, right approach. and we shall. The national dementia strategy was published as recently as February this year. It is the first strategy of 6.52 pm its kind, and it is a genuine milestone in developing new services for people with dementia and their carers. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) Hope): We have had a vigorous debate. Some of it has asked two questions. We will publish our response to been driven by political motivations—we know where the review of anti-psychotic drugs shortly. On the review they are coming from—but some has been driven by the of abuse of adults and older people, let me put it on experiences of constituents and by Members’ personal record that such abuse is never acceptable; we must experiences. I welcomed the contribution of my hon. make that very clear in this House. We will publish the Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford)— response to the major consultation, which involved who spoke from huge experience—and that of the hon. more than 12,000 submissions from professional and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon organisations and older people themselves, this Friday. (Mr. Cox). Both expressed sincere concern, analysing Let me be clear about what we have done in spending their experiences and seeking solutions for the future. terms over the past 12 years. In 1997, adult social care Care for older people is an issue that arouses strong spending was less than £10 billion. Ten years later, that feelings, and rightly so. Given that a country is measured, figure has risen to £15.3 billion—a 50 per cent. real-terms ultimately, by how well it looks after its elderly, it is increase. Local authorities have received record increases right for this question to be at the heart of our political in funding for the care that they provide. Spending on discourse, whether here in Westminster, in Norwich or care for older people has gone up from £6 billion to in any other part of the country. almost £9 billion—a 41 per cent. real-terms increase. I recently met an elderly couple in Croydon who were All that investment over the past 12 years, and all the receiving excellent care through a unique partnership reform that I do not have the time to describe in detail, between the national health service, the local authority has made a real difference to older people in our and a voluntary organisation, which were working together communities, but we now need to build on those successes to give them high-quality support. They made it clear to to reshape the entire system. me that they wanted us in Parliament, and in Government, Given the unfairnesses that others have described in to ensure that they would be looked after financially, the system, and given the demographic challenge of an and wanted to be reassured that their health and social ageing society, it is clear that we need radical proposals care needs would be met so that they could play an to maintain a viable and affordable care service for the active part in their community. They wanted it to be future. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of recognised that although they were elderly and frail State for Health laid before Parliament the vision of a they still had something to offer society, and they new national care service to deliver a fairer and simpler wanted the opportunity to prove it. It is up to us to rise approach to funding and accessing care services for all above the party political division that will inevitably adults. With the exception of the hon. Member for accompany debates of this kind, and try to reach a South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) and his Front-Bench consensus on a better future for older people. colleagues yesterday, I thought that on the basis of 407 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 408 some of the contributions from both sides of the House, Gibb, Mr. Nick Moore, Mr. Michael we were beginning to see a bit of a consensus emerging. Gidley, Sandra Moss, Mr. Malcolm It is true to say— Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mulholland, Greg Goodman, Mr. Paul Mundell, David Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) rose— Gray, Mr. James Murrison, Dr. Andrew Grayling, Chris Neill, Robert Greening, Justine Newmark, Mr. Brooks Phil Hope: I am not going to give way, as I only have a Grieve, Mr. Dominic O’Brien, Mr. Stephen minute or so left. Gummer, rh Mr. John Oaten, Mr. Mark When the Tories were in power, pensioner poverty Hague, rh Mr. William Öpik, Lembit increased and social care was ignored. In opposition, Hammond, Mr. Philip Osborne, Mr. George they are refusing to say what their policies would be Hammond, Stephen Ottaway, Richard and, very cynically, they have now said they will not Hancock, Mr. Mike Paterson, Mr. Owen support a national care service despite the comments of Hands, Mr. Greg Pelling, Mr. Andrew Harper, Mr. Mark Penning, Mike certain Conservative Back Benchers. Perhaps the Harris, Dr. Evan Pickles, Mr. Eric Conservative Front-Bench team should look to them Harvey, Nick Prisk, Mr. Mark for sensible contributions about the right way forward, Hayes, Mr. John Pritchard, Mark as I thought I heard support for option two in our Heald, Mr. Oliver Pugh, Dr. John Green Paper from at least two Conservative Back Benchers. Heath, Mr. David Randall, Mr. John We want a system in which people can rely on a care Heathcoat-Amory, rh Redwood, rh Mr. John service for the future, and we want to build a consensus Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan around new national care services. For the sake of the Hemming, John Rennie, Willie Hendry, Charles Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm people in Croydon whom I met recently, and the millions Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Robathan, Mr. Andrew of people we represent as constituency MPs, I hope that Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robertson, Angus the House will grasp this once-in-a-generation opportunity Holloway, Mr. Adam Robertson, Mr. Laurence to support the creation of a national care service that is Holmes, Paul Robinson, Mrs. Iris fairer, simpler and more affordable for all, and that Horam, Mr. John Robinson, rh Mr. Peter provides good quality care for everyone, wherever they Howard, rh Mr. Michael Rosindell, Andrew live and whatever their needs. Howarth, Mr. Gerald Rowen, Paul Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Howell, John Russell, Bob Hughes, Simon Sanders, Mr. Adrian original words stand part of the Question. Huhne, Chris Scott, Mr. Lee The House divided: Ayes 211, Noes 287. Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Selous, Andrew Hunter, Mark Shapps, Grant Division No. 203] [6.59 pm Hurd, Mr. Nick Shepherd, Mr. Richard Jack, rh Mr. Michael Simmonds, Mark Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Simpson, David AYES Jones, Mr. David Smith, Sir Robert Afriyie, Adam Cash, Mr. William Kawczynski, Daniel Soames, Mr. Nicholas Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Chope, Mr. Christopher Keetch, Mr. Paul Spicer, Sir Michael Alexander, Danny Clappison, Mr. James Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spring, Mr. Richard Amess, Mr. David Clark, Greg Key, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Kirkbride, Miss Julie Steen, Mr. Anthony Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Knight, rh Mr. Greg Streeter, Mr. Gary Atkinson, Mr. Peter Cormack, Sir Patrick Kramer, Susan Stuart, Mr. Graham Baker, Norman Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Stunell, Andrew Baldry, Tony Curry, rh Mr. David Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Swayne, Mr. Desmond Barker, Gregory Davey, Mr. Edward Lancaster, Mr. Mark Swinson, Jo Baron, Mr. John Davies, David T.C. Lansley, Mr. Andrew Swire, Mr. Hugo Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Laws, Mr. David Tapsell, Sir Peter Benyon, Mr. Richard Davies, Philip Leech, Mr. John Taylor, Mr. Ian Beresford, Sir Paul Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Leigh, Mr. Edward Teather, Sarah Binley, Mr. Brian Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lewis, Dr. Julian Thurso, John Bone, Mr. Peter Dorries, Nadine Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Turner, Mr. Andrew Boswell, Mr. Tim Duddridge, James Lidington, Mr. David Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Brady, Mr. Graham Duncan, Alan Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Vara, Mr. Shailesh Brazier, Mr. Julian Dunne, Mr. Philip Luff, Peter Viggers, Sir Peter Breed, Mr. Colin Evans, Mr. Nigel Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Browne, Mr. Jeremy Evennett, Mr. David Maclean, rh David Walker, Mr. Charles Browning, Angela Fallon, Mr. Michael Main, Anne Waterson, Mr. Nigel Bruce, rh Malcolm Farron, Tim Malins, Mr. Humfrey Watkinson, Angela Burns, Mr. Simon Field, Mr. Mark Maples, Mr. John Weir, Mr. Mike Burrowes, Mr. David Foster, Mr. Don Mason, John Whittingdale, Mr. John Burstow, Mr. Paul Fox, Dr. Liam Mates, rh Mr. Michael Williams, Mark Burt, Alistair Francois, Mr. Mark McCrea, Dr. William Willis, Mr. Phil Burt, Lorely Fraser, Christopher McIntosh, Miss Anne Willott, Jenny Cable, Dr. Vincent Gale, Mr. Roger McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Wilshire, Mr. David Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Garnier, Mr. Edward Mercer, Patrick Wilson, Mr. Rob Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Gauke, Mr. David Milton, Anne Winterton, Ann Carswell, Mr. Douglas George, Andrew Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Winterton, Sir Nicholas 409 Caring for the Elderly15 JULY 2009 Caring for the Elderly 410

Wishart, Pete Younger-Ross, Richard Johnson, Ms Diana R. Norris, Dan Wright, Jeremy Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Helen O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Yeo, Mr. Tim Bill Wiggin and Jones, Mr. Kevan Olner, Mr. Bill Young, rh Sir George Mr. Stephen Crabb Jones, Lynne Osborne, Sandra Jones, Mr. Martyn Owen, Albert Jowell, rh Tessa Palmer, Dr. Nick NOES Joyce, Mr. Eric Pearson, Ian Abbott, Ms Diane Davies, Mr. Quentin Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Plaskitt, Mr. James Ainger, Nick Dean, Mrs. Janet Keeble, Ms Sally Pope, Mr. Greg Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Denham, rh Mr. John Keeley, Barbara Pound, Stephen Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Keen, Alan Prentice, Bridget Allen, Mr. Graham Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keen, Ann Prentice, Mr. Gordon Anderson, Mr. David Dobbin, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Primarolo, rh Dawn Anderson, Janet Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kemp, Mr. Fraser Prosser, Gwyn Armstrong, rh Hilary Doran, Mr. Frank Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Purchase, Mr. Ken Atkins, Charlotte Dowd, Jim Kidney, Mr. David Purnell, rh James Austin, Mr. Ian Drew, Mr. David Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Austin, John Eagle, Angela Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Andy Baird, Vera Eagle, Maria Kumar, Dr. Ashok Reid, rh John Balls, rh Ed Ellman, Mrs. Louise Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robertson, John Banks, Gordon Engel, Natascha Lammy, rh Mr. David Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Ennis, Jeff Laxton, Mr. Bob Rooney, Mr. Terry Battle, rh John Fisher, Mark Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Mr. Frank Bayley, Hugh Fitzpatrick, Jim Lepper, David Roy, Lindsay Beckett, rh Margaret Flint, rh Caroline Levitt, Tom Ruane, Chris Begg, Miss Anne Flynn, Paul Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ruddock, Joan Bell, Sir Stuart Follett, Barbara Linton, Martin Russell, Christine Benn, rh Hilary Foster, Mr. Michael Lloyd, Tony Ryan, rh Joan Benton, Mr. Joe (Worcester) Love, Mr. Andrew Salter, Martin Berry, Roger Foster, Michael Jabez Lucas, Ian Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Betts, Mr. Clive (Hastings and Rye) Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Blunkett, rh Mr. David Francis, Dr. Hywel MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Sharma, Mr. Virendra Brennan, Kevin Gapes, Mike Mactaggart, Fiona Shaw, Jonathan Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gardiner, Barry Mallaber, Judy Sheerman, Mr. Barry Brown, Mr. Russell George, rh Mr. Bruce Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Browne, rh Des Gerrard, Mr. Neil Marris, Rob Simon, Mr. Siôn Buck, Ms Karen Gilroy, Linda Marsden, Mr. Gordon Simpson, Alan Burden, Richard Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Skinner, Mr. Dennis Burgon, Colin Goggins, rh Paul Martlew, Mr. Eric Slaughter, Mr. Andy Burnham, rh Andy Goodman, Helen McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Butler, Ms Dawn Griffith, Nia McCafferty, Chris Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Grogan, Mr. John McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Geraldine Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Snelgrove, Anne Cairns, David Hall, Patrick McDonnell, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Campbell, Mr. Alan Hamilton, Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Spellar, rh Mr. John Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hanson, rh Mr. David McFall, rh John Spink, Bob Caton, Mr. Martin Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGovern, Mr. Jim Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cawsey, Mr. Ian Havard, Mr. Dai McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stewart, Ian Challen, Colin Healey, rh John McIsaac, Shona Stoate, Dr. Howard Chapman, Ben Hendrick, Mr. Mark McKechin, Ann Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Chaytor, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McKenna, Rosemary Straw, rh Mr. Jack Clapham, Mr. Michael Heppell, Mr. John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stringer, Graham Clark, Paul Hesford, Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Merron, Gillian Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clarke,rhMr.Tom Heyes, David Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Clelland, Mr. David Hill, rh Keith Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Taylor, Ms Dari Clwyd, rh Ann Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miliband, rh David Taylor, David Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hoey, Kate Miller, Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard Coffey, Ann Hood, Mr. Jim Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thomas, Mr. Gareth Cohen, Harry Hope, Phil Moffatt, Laura Thornberry, Emily Cook, Frank Hopkins, Kelvin Mole, Chris Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr. George Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Todd, Mr. Mark Corbyn, Jeremy Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Crausby, Mr. David Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morgan, Julie Turner, Dr. Desmond Creagh, Mary Hughes, rh Beverley Mountford, Kali Turner, Mr. Neil Cryer, Mrs. Ann Humble, Mrs. Joan Mudie, Mr. George Twigg, Derek Cummings, John Iddon, Dr. Brian Mullin, Mr. Chris Vis, Dr. Rudi Cunningham, Mr. Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Munn, Meg Waltho, Lynda Cunningham, Tony Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, Mr. Denis Ward, Claire David, Mr. Wayne James, Mrs. Siân C. Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Davidson, Mr. Ian Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Watts, Mr. Dave Davies, Mr. Dai Johnson, rh Alan Naysmith, Dr. Doug Whitehead, Dr. Alan 411 Caring for the Elderly 15 JULY 2009 412

Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, Mr. Anthony DEFENCE Williams, rh Mr. Alan Wright, David That the draft Armed Forces (Powers of Stop and Search, Williams, Mrs. Betty Wright, Mr. Iain Search, Seizure and Retention) Order 2009, which was laid before Wills, rh Mr. Michael Wright, Dr. Tony this House on 1 June, be approved. Wilson, Phil Wyatt, Derek Winnick, Mr. David COMPANIES Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Tellers for the Noes: Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Lyn Brown and That the draft Companies (Share Capital and Acquisition by Woolas, Mr. Phil Steve McCabe Company of its Own Shares) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 17 June, be approved. Question accordingly negatived. COMPANIES Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the draft Community Interest Company (Amendment) That the proposed words be there added. Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 17 June, Question agreed to. be approved. The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS Resolved, That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Regulated Activity, Miscellaneous and Transitional Provisions That this House welcomes the steps taken since 1997 to tackle and Commencement No. 5) Order 2009, which was laid before increasing pensioner poverty; notes that policies delivering real this House on 17 June, be approved.—(Mary Creagh.) help to pensioners include free bus passes, free TV licences, winter fuel payments and Pension Credit which ensures no pensioner Question agreed to. lives on less than £130 a week; notes that the Government is targeting around £100 billion more on pensioners than if pre-1997 policies had been maintained; further notes the Government’s EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS commitment to reversing the policy of separating uprating of the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing state pension and growth in average earnings; notes the introduction Order No. 119(11)), of the Financial Assistance Scheme, the Pension Protection Fund and the Turner consensus as building a sustainable pensions system going forward; welcomes raising of Individual Savings WASTE ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT Accounts limits at Budget 2009; warmly welcomes the Government’s That this House takes note of European Union Document No. Ageing Strategy; further welcomes the publication of the Green 17367/08 and Addenda 1 and 2, draft Directive on waste electrical Paper, Shaping the future of care together, which proposes a and electronic equipment (WEEE); and supports the Government’s National Care Service to create the first national, universal, aim to work with the European Commission and other Member entitlement-based system for care and support ever in England; States to further reform the existing Directive.—(Mary Creagh.) notes that the Government’s proposals will shape a new care and Question agreed to. support system fit for the 21st century that will be fairer, simpler and more affordable for everyone; further notes the published indicative costs an individual may face during their lifetime and the comprehensive impact assessment for the Green Paper; recognises REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (SOUTH that carers make a huge contribution to society; and acknowledges WEST) that the new Care Quality Commission has made dignity and Motion made, respect one of its six key areas of inspection. That Linda Gilroy be discharged from the South West Regional Select Committee and Roger Berry be added.—(Mary Creagh.)

Business without Debate Hon. Members: Object.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE DEFERRED DIVISIONS Motion made, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That, at the sittings on Monday 20 July and on Tuesday Order No. 41A(3)), 21 July, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House until any message from the Lords has been received, any Committee to That at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred draw up Reasons which has been appointed at that sitting has divisions) shall not apply to the Motions in the name of Secretary reported, and he has notified the Royal Assent to Acts agreed Bob Ainsworth relating to Defence, Mr Pat McFadden relating to upon by both Houses.—(Mary Creagh.) Companies and Secretary Ed Balls relating to Children and —(Mary Creagh.) Young Persons. Hon. Members: Object. Question agreed to.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): With the leave SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE REFORM OF of the House, we shall take motions 4 to 8 together. THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Motion made, Order No. 118(6)), (1) That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and make recommendations on the following matters: (a) the appointment of members and chairmen of select DEFENCE committees; That the draft Armed Forces Act 2006 (Consequential (b) scheduling business in the House; Amendments) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 2 (c) enabling the public to initiate debates and proceedings in June, be approved. the House; and 413 Business without Debate 15 JULY 2009 414

(d) such other matters as appear to the Committee to be closely Diageo Closures connected with the matters set out above, and to report on these matters by 13 November 2009; Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House (2) That the Committee also consider such other matters as do now adjourn.—(Mary Creagh.) may be referred to it from time to time; (3) That the Committee consist of eighteen Members; 7.18 pm (4) That Mr Graham Allen, Mr Clive Betts, Mr Graham Des Browne (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): The Brady, Mr David Clelland, Mr David Drew, Natascha Engel, Dr Johnnie Walker whisky bottling plant in Kilmarnock Evan Harris, David Howarth, Mr Michael Jack, Mr Greg Knight, dominates the town. As its Hill street address suggests, Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Mr Chris Mullin, Dr Nick Palmer, Martin it sits above the centre of the town as a solid symbol of Salter, Dr Phyllis Starkey, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Dr Tony Wright and Kilmarnock’s industrial history. Like the ravens in the Sir George Young be members of the Committee; tower of London, no matter how bad things get in (5) That Dr Tony Wright be Chairman of the Committee; Kilmarnock, as long as the Johnnie Walker plant is (6) That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers there, there is always hope for the future. For a community and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the that has suffered decades of de-industrialisation and House, to adjourn from place to place, to report from time to time that for more than 30 years now has had a systemic and to appoint specialist advisers; higher rate of unemployment than the rest of Scotland, (7) That this Order be a Standing Order of the House until the psychologically the imposing presence of Johnnie Walker end of the present and its 700 jobs offers some optimism that the town can Parliament. —(Mary Creagh). rise again. Hardly is there a family in Kilmarnock and the Hon. Members: Object. surrounding area that is not connected in some way to the Johnnie Walker plant or to the distribution centre in PETITION Barlieth, Hurlford. There are thousands of former Johnnie Walker workers in Kilmarnock, hundreds of present Flooding (Surrey) Johnnie Walker workers, and many thousands who aspire to be Johnnie Walker workers. 7.16 pm Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): On 20 I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his campaign, July 2007, we had an exceptional downpour of torrential which has brought together on a cross-party and cross- rain, which led to flooding in many parts of our country, community basis many people in Kilmarnock and the including in Sutton and Cheam, the constituency that I surrounding area. Does he agree, however, that the have the privilege to represent, affecting in particular closures would affect the whole of Ayrshire, which has those of my constituents who live in Green lane in already lost far too many jobs in the past few decades? Worcester Park. On that day, the Beverly brook flooded The economic impact on Ayrshire would be dire. its banks, damaging property and causing great costs Des Browne: I thank my hon. Friend, who has been a for many of my constituents and a good deal of disruption stalwart supporter of the campaign that we are conducting for many days after. Since that time, the Environment to try to get Diageo to change its mind. The fact that Agency has been working on a scheme to alleviate and she has been so vocal in her support shows the extent to minimise the risk of flooding, and it is about that which the people of Ayrshire—and, indeed, Scotland, scheme that I come to the House tonight on behalf of to a large degree—have fallen in behind the campaign. many of my constituents who have signed a local petition She anticipates many of the arguments that I am about pressing for action now to implement the scheme. to make, so perhaps I should carry on. The petition states: The plant, the distribution centre and the support To the House of Commons. services provided by local businesses contribute in excess The Petition of residents of Green Lane, Pembury Avenue, of £20 million a year to the local economy, and that Worcester Park and others, economy stretches beyond Kilmarnock. By operating Declares that the flooding of Green Lane and adjacent roads the bottling plant in Kilmarnock and the distribution on the 20th July 2007 by the Beverly Brook caused damage to centre in Hurlford, Diageo contributes all that benefit property, cost and disruption for the residents. to the wider community of Kilmarnock. To that extent, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons the people of Kilmarnock and Ayrshire are grateful for calls upon Her Majesty’s Government to implement the flood the years that it has run the plant, but the situation has protection scheme recommended by the Environment Agency in been far from a one-way street, and I think that the the coming year. business would accept that. And the Petitioners remain, etc. In 1819, Johnnie Walker, a local grocer, first blended [P000394] his whisky for sale in his own shop. Today, the brand Johnnie Walker is the world’s leading blended whisky, outselling every other whisky in volume, and outselling every other spirit in value. Workers in Kilmarnock contributed to that success story with their loyal, efficient profit-making and hard work. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, and on his vigorous support of his community. Does he agree that the provenance and heritage of whisky is crucial to 415 Diageo Closures15 JULY 2009 Diageo Closures 416 consumers at home and abroad? It is a real mistake for The mandate to carry out the work was accepted by any multinational company to lose touch with, and lose Scottish Enterprise, but I can reassure the House that, its commitment to, the communities that produce their at a meeting convened last night by John Swinney, it profits, whether they are in Kilmarnock, Glasgow or was made very clear that the consultants were to be Speyside. engaged just on that basis. Indeed, Jack Perry, the chief executive of Scottish Enterprise, offered the representatives Des Browne: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his of the Unite and GMB unions the opportunity to intervention, and indeed for his support, to which I contribute to and engage in the process of assessment. shall come back in a moment. The interventions reassure Of course, this issue is broader than my constituency. me that the argument that I am developing is the right I am being slightly selfish in concentrating on the interests one; it is being anticipated right, left and centre. It may of my constituents in this debate, although I am sure well be anticipated further as the evening goes on. I was that the House will understand that, but I repeat that explaining that the situation is far from a one-way the matter stretches well beyond my constituency. It is street, and that the people of Kilmarnock have contributed unfortunate that the Port Dundas workers do not have a significantly to the success of the plant and its well-known Member of Parliament at present to speak up for them and internationalist spirit. in this House, but there will shortly be an election and For many of my constituents, Johnnie Walker is that might give them a chance to get their problems woven into the weave of Kilmarnock. I have to say that aired. until 1 July, they thought that that commitment was reciprocated. Diageo is an impressive multinational John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): As a company: it provides 4,500 jobs in Scotland, leads the Glasgow MP, I can safely say that the cooperage in Port drinks industry across the world, and markets some of Dundas is well known, if only because of the smell in the world’s best-known and leading brands. To its credit, the streets in the top end of the town. It is part of it earns formidable amounts from exports for the United Glasgow, and the people there can ill afford to lose the Kingdom and its shareholders. Ostensibly, it is a modern 100-odd jobs in Port Dundas. company managed according to the best 21st-century corporate practices. That means that over the years, its Des Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for workers in Kilmarnock have been conditioned to speaking up for Glasgow, which he does regularly in understand just how much they are valued by their this House. I am sure that the workers are pleased that corporate masters, just how important their individual they are not being forgotten in this debate. I hope that and collective contributions are to the corporate success, the campaign will continue and that they will have other and, importantly, how seriously Diageo takes its opportunities to make their case. However, time is always responsibilities to them as partners, not just workers. Its short for these debates so I shall try to make progress workers have been conditioned to understand how much with the argument that I want to make for my constituents, the company is committed, as part of its ethos, to and in respect of the wider issues at stake. cherish and preserve its legacy and heritage and to protect the communities that are its hosts. Since 1 July, much has been written and spoken about this matter, in the Scottish media and more widely. I could paper the walls of this Chamber with corporate Latterly, corporate whisky has been responding to the documentation that articulates that message of partnership. campaign to get Diageo to think again about its proposals, It is designed to encourage the work force to show and last week Diageo embarked on a counter-campaign. greater efficiency and greater loyalty, and it succeeds. Yet on 1 July, those same workers were told that the Over the weekend, it was reported in the online need for “more shareholder value” required that their edition of The Sunday Times that the view of the bottling plant be closed within two years, and that the managing director of the distiller and bottler Ian McLeod distribution workers be transferred within months to a and Co. was that, as a consequence of the decision, the new employer—essentially, as they were told in a letter, whisky industry had whether they liked it or not. “become the latest plaything of government and opposition.” He is reported to have said: Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the “If the politicians are going to start shouting from the rooftops whenever a company tries to make some of their employees debate. He is well aware that Kilmarnock workers have redundant, it hardly sends out a positive message to prospective made a major contribution to the profits of Diageo, but inward investors in Scotland”. so have workers throughout the rest of Scotland, particularly in Port Dundas and in Renfrewshire, where we are Some of us thought that that attitude had gone out in losing jobs, too. Independent consultants have been the 1980s, but unfortunately it seems to be alive and well brought in to assist Diageo, which is a welcome move. in corporate whisky. My message to that director is that Can he inform the House whether those independent his rather quaint and old-fashioned views mainly reinforce consultants will work with the workers’ representatives, my concerns about where we will end up if we do not the trade unions? I do not mean just talking to the trade stop and think hard about the full implications of the unions, which have expertise in such matters; I mean proposals. working alongside them. Far from playing at it, we are deadly serious. The workforce at both Kilmarnock and Hurlford, the Unite Des Browne: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, and GMB unions, East Ayrshire council, Scottish as he has great knowledge of the industry. The Shieldhall Enterprise, the Scottish Government, Willie Coffey, bottling plant is in his constituency, and he will come to who is the Member of the Scottish Parliament for my know Diageo very well as he continues to represent the constituency, the members of the recently elected Scottish area over the years. Youth Parliament, as well as wider civic society in 417 Diageo Closures15 JULY 2009 Diageo Closures 418

[Des Browne] Des Browne: A considerable number of Members wish to intervene, and I shall be happy to take those Kilmarnock and Loudoun and in Ayrshire, have all interventions, subject to leaving my right hon. Friend joined together to speak with one voice in asking Diageo the Minister an opportunity to address the House at to think again. That we have sustained this campaign least for a few minutes, but I want first to make some from a standing start for two weeks now, maintaining a progress. consistent public presence and gathering support from It cannot be the case that all those whom I have cited across the world, is convincing evidence that the cause is and who have fallen in behind the campaign are wrong just. However, it is also a sign of the degree of pain that about the argument, and that the only people who are the community is feeling and the level of fear that it has right are Diageo executives and corporate whisky. It for its future. cannot be the case that the former are the only people in The Johnnie Walker workers in Kilmarnock are extremely Scotland who cannot see the point. My research has grateful to wider Scottish society for the support that revealed that an embarrassment of phrases from whisky’s they have received. The First Minister and my right own promotional material could be deployed to show hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland have what we all know, which is that, when a glass of whisky both pledged their support. On behalf of my constituents, is raised anywhere in the world, the whisky drinker is I should like to thank the hon. Members for Moray raising Scotland in a glass. (Angus Robertson), for Orkney and Shetland Of all the competing brands of Scotland in a glass, (Mr. Carmichael) and for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale Johnnie Walker is the most successful by a street because and Tweeddale (David Mundell) for joining me last of its provenance—because of its roots stretching back week to launch an all-party UK parliamentary presence to 1820. To paraphrase the words of another successful in this campaign. I should also like to add our thanks to advertising campaign, it delivers what it says on the my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central label. (Mr. Sarwar) and the Scottish Affairs Committee for taking up our request that it investigate the implications Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): of the decision for Scotland. I, too, was at the Scottish Affairs Committee briefing If we add to that the growing petition that is attracting with senior Diageo management, and I was surprised support from throughout the world and the offers of that they were so surprised by our reaction. We merely support that are flooding in from all over, the House reflect the reaction of our constituents, however, so can may get a sense of how important the issue is. All that I, through the right hon. Gentleman, tell those in corporate will be reflected in a march and rally in Kilmarnock on whisky, as he calls it, that they have always received a 26 July, to which all those Members not on holiday—which good reception in this House because we see the connection we all know is for all but two weeks during the recess—are between our communities and their business? If they invited. are determined to break that connection, why should our communities seek to support them in the future? Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): I am a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, and today, Des Browne: I could not have put it better myself. I as I am sure my right hon. Friend is aware, we met was hoping to, of course, but I could not have. I want to senior members of Diageo’s management. Not only I, pose some questions to my right hon. Friend the Minister, but all members of the Committee, were angered at the and I shall take one more intervention at an appropriate management’s expression of resentment at any political point. involvement in the decision. Currently, by legislation of About 12 years ago, the local council, East Ayrshire course, it is a proposal not a decision, but I hope my council, Scottish Enterprise and the workers at Kilmarnock, right hon. Friend agrees that it would be remiss of any supported by Donald Dewar and Brian Wilson, who politician not to challenge such a decision. The management were then in the Scotland Office, succeeded in persuading said today that we were using the issue as a political Diageo that that combination of efficiency, loyalty and football, but “political football” suggests to me that profitability, embedded in a credible heritage and politicians have fallen out with each other, and that is provenance, which is in the bottle, was a winning not the case. There is cross-party condemnation of the combination. Then, Diageo decided not only to continue proposal and cross-party support for a challenge to it. to bottle whisky in Kilmarnock but to invest in the plant. Then, politicians intervened, and as a consequence Des Browne: I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution, Diageo and its Johnnie Walker plant in Kilmarnock although he has spoiled the whole second half of my have enjoyed a decade of improving markets and greater speech. His point is important, however, and those in profitability. It is possible for politicians to make a what I have come to refer to as corporate whisky need to positive contribution, and that is an example. hear that the path between them and us has been well Little, if anything, has changed since then, and the beaten when they have wanted our support for their current proposal has nothing to do with the recession industry throughout the world. We are never short of and everything to do with Diageo positioning itself in giving that support, but on this occasion we say, “We the global market for the next decade or so, as it is have read your literature carefully, and you say that in entitled to do. The difference this time is that the the 21st century you have this relationship with your company’s marketing gurus and desire for more shareholder workers, legacy and communities, so can we please test value have convinced its executives that they can take this?” the risk of breaking the link between the world’s best-known Scotch whisky and its history. Furthermore, they must David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) have been prepared to contemplate the disastrous social (Con): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? effects that the decision would have on the community 419 Diageo Closures15 JULY 2009 Diageo Closures 420 that I represent, which has so loyally served the company David Mundell: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for about 200 years, and they must have considered that and congratulate him on his campaign, which has my a price worth paying. I do not believe that it is. full support and that of my colleagues in Scotland. Does he agree that if Diageo is the blue-chip, high-quality Making the case for the company to think again is my global company that it holds itself to be, the 90-day job as a politician; it would be a dereliction of my duty consultation will be a genuine one in which a counter- not to do now what I did 12 years ago. Thankfully, we proposal will be listened to and properly and legitimately are dealing with what in Diageo’s own words is a evaluated, rather than being a sham exercise simply proposal. Its chief executive officer told me to my face endorsing decisions that have already been made? that he would listen to an alternative. He has repeated that, both to the First Minister and to the Secretary of State for Scotland—and, no doubt, to the Scottish Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman has made an important Affairs Committee. We intend to take him at his word. point. I have spoken to the chief executive officer of Diageo, and I believe him to be a man of his word. He I am not in the business of peddling false hopes and I has given me his word that the company will listen to realise how difficult this will be, but I am determined any alternative proposals during the consultation. I that all of us involved in this side of the argument will have to say that I was slightly concerned by the message work together to produce an alternative that is at least that I was receiving, and the distillation of it, last as attractive as the proposal that is on the table at Thursday, when I thought that a different message was present. Scottish Enterprise has accepted the mandate in fact being given. However, I am satisfied that the man to conduct the assessment of the underlying financial paid to run the company is telling me the truth and that and business plan to enable us to come up with that it will listen. The onus is on us to come up with the alternative. The First Minister of Scotland has cast alternative to persuade it. I do not underestimate how himself in the role of principal interlocutor with Diageo. difficult that will be, but we need to get the opportunity Yesterday in a meeting in Edinburgh, local politicians to do it, and the company needs to listen to what we and I made it perfectly clear to John Swinney, the have to say. Finance Secretary, and his officials and the senior I conclude by requesting that my right hon. Friend management of Scottish Enterprise, that time is of the the Minister ensures that his officials keep in regular essence. contact with their colleagues in Scottish Enterprise and Diageo’s 90-day consultation clock is ticking, and the in the Scottish Government, and that he gives this unions are already embroiled in consultations. If those House an undertaking that he will keep us informed of consultations are not to become simply an opportunity any significant developments. for the company to justify its proposal, the shape of the alternative must begin to emerge sooner rather than 7.39 pm later. When the First Minister meets the chief executive officer of Diageo next week, this story must move on. The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat The campaign is bringing the community that I represent McFadden): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the together in a spectacular fashion, but behind closed Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Des Browne) doors the uncertainty is destroying its confidence in its on securing this debate. I have spoken to him about this future. That cannot be allowed to go on. issue several times in recent weeks, and I know how much it means to him and to his constituents. He is of My constituents are very grateful to my right hon. course deeply concerned about the jobs of the Diageo Friend the Minister’s Government for the support expressed workers in his constituency and the effect that the loss by my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the of those jobs will have not only on the families involved House at Prime Minister’s questions last week. However, but on the wider community in Kilmarnock and the rest on my constituents’ behalf I have some messages for the of Ayrshire. Government and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s The Scotch whisky industry is hugely important to response. First, the UK Government must stand ready the UK economy. Figures published last month by the to support, in any way that they can while respecting Scotch Whisky Association put the value of annual devolved responsibilities, any alternative proposal that whisky shipments at more than £3 billion, earning £97 a emerges. I repeat that what has happened is not a second for the UK last year. Overall, the equivalent of consequence of recession and the decision is not driven more than 1 billion bottles of Scotch whisky were by duty rates on spirits; consequently, the levers that the shipped all over the world—to north and central America, UK Government hold will be limited. However, as the Australia, Europe and Asia. Whisky also means jobs. counter-proposal emerges, and if we need to come for About three quarters of the UK’s distilled alcoholic support, my constituents need to know that it will be drinks enterprises are located in Scotland, with an there. estimated 41,000 people employed just in making, distilling My right hon. Friend the Minister is a fellow Scot and bottling whisky. and a former adviser to the late Donald Dewar, and he Diageo is a major player in all this. It owns 29 whisky has a long history of appreciation of Scots values and distilleries in Scotland, and houses all its maturing heritage. I do not have to explain to him just how Scotch whisky in Scottish warehouses. Twenty-eight per important these historical links are to Scotland’s most cent. of its net sales are from Scotch whisky; that is a famous export. Does he share my concern about the very large figure when one considers that it has sales of facility with which whisky executives now seem to be about £8 billion. Diageo directly employs 4,500 people able to trot out the justifications for not only breaking across 50 sites. The Government, through UK Trade the link but for moving even more than 20 per cent. of and Investment, have strongly supported the Scotch whisky bottling offshore? whisky industry, as my right hon. Friend said, and we 421 Diageo Closures15 JULY 2009 Diageo Closures 422

[Mr. Pat McFadden] Johnnie Walker is a whisky renowned throughout the world, with a far-reaching cultural influence. Perhaps have worked with Diageo in developing export markets. that is one reason why there are yearly sales of more We very much appreciate the importance of that company than 120 million bottles. Such is the product’s worth and of the industry in general. that owning one bottle of a particular Johnnie Walker Diageo’s proposal is twofold. The first part is to close blue label of which I understand there are only 200 in the packaging plant in Kilmarnock—one of three in existence would set one back an estimated $30,000. Scotland—along with the cooperage in Port Dundas The affinity between the town and the brand helps that was mentioned. The second part is to make a new explain why the proposal to close the plant in Kilmarnock investment of some £100 million, creating 400 new jobs has aroused such passionate and vocal opinion in the elsewhere in Scotland. I understand that, as my right local community. As my right hon. Friend said, there is hon. Friend said, this has been greeted in Kilmarnock, a 90-day consultation on the plans, and Diageo has where the greatest number of jobs will go, with deep given guarantees that there will be no compulsory job disappointment and dismay. losses in the next 12 months. My right hon. Friend the My right hon. Friend outlined the history; if someone Secretary of State for Scotland has met the Diageo chief knows the history, it means something to them. Kilmarnock executive, to whom I spoke briefly about the matter is known as the home of Johnnie Walker whisky. Place today. has a huge role to play in whisky brands. As he said, Campaigners in Scotland have urged Diageo to consider when people buy whisky, they are not just buying a seriously any alternative options that the workers and drink—they are buying into a story about place, heritage Scottish Enterprise can come up with, including the and tradition. That is one of the major reasons for possibility of relocating to different sites in Kilmarnock whisky’s success. This particular whisky has been blended and Glasgow if suitable proposals emerge. The business in Kilmarnock for almost two centuries, ever since of devising alternative solutions involves the First Minister, Johnnie Walker himself blended it and sold it in Kilmarnock the Secretary of State for Scotland, the chairman of high street back in 1819. In fact, one of the earliest Scottish Enterprise and many others. They are working incarnations of the whisky was called Walker’s Kilmarnock. on putting together an alternative proposal for the Since then, generations of Kilmarnock families, including company. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Johnnie Walker’s descendents, Alexander Walker and Kilmarnock and Loudoun said, a meeting yesterday Alexander Walker II, have added to the story of the was convened by the Scottish Government’s Finance whisky, whether through the iconic square bottle introduced Minister, John Swinney. in 1870 or the distinctive label applied, I understand, at For our part, we believe that the work that the the precise angle of 24°. Scottish Government and their agencies are taking forward The association of the brand with real people and is crucial. I hope and believe that the company is real places helps make Johnnie Walker such a distinctive genuine about consultation and open-minded about and successful whisky. In fact its influence goes beyond possibilities. The UK Government will continue to work the pleasure of drinking, as it has a wider cultural with the company and my right hon. Friend, and to influence. I could name Leonard Cohen, Van Morrison, engage with the work force about the best way forward The Band, The Streets and ZZ Top as just some of the on this crucial issue. artists to have featured Johnnie Walker in their lyrics. Question put and agreed to. Films such as “The Dirty Dozen” and great television programmes such as “The West Wing” contain references 7.47 pm to Johnnie Walker. Indeed, there is even a Japanese House adjourned. novelist, Haruki Murakami, who went so far as to create a character called Johnnie Walker. 423 15 JULY 2009 Deferred Division 424

Deferred Division Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Hoey, Kate Morden, Jessica Hood, Mr. Jim Morgan, Julie EAST MIDLANDS REGIONAL GRAND COMMITTEE Hope, Phil Mountford, Kali That the East Midlands Regional Grand Committee shall Hopkins, Kelvin Mudie, Mr. George meet in Nottingham on Wednesday 9 September between 2.00 pm Howarth, rh Mr. George Munn, Meg and 4.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, Mr. Denis (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, rh Mr. Jim hold a general debate on building Britain’s Future: how the region Hughes, rh Beverley Murphy, rh Mr. Paul will make the most of the upturn. Humble, Mrs. Joan Norris, Dan The House divided: Ayes 277, Noes 180. Hutton, rh Mr. John O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Division No. 201] Iddon, Dr. Brian Olner, Mr. Bill Illsley, Mr. Eric Osborne, Sandra AYES Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Owen, Albert Irranca-Davies, Huw Palmer, Dr. Nick Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Mr. Jim James, Mrs. Siân C. Plaskitt, Mr. James Ainger, Nick Cunningham, Tony Jenkins, Mr. Brian Pope, Mr. Greg Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, Ms Diana R. Prentice, Bridget Anderson, Mr. David Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Helen Prentice, Mr. Gordon Anderson, Janet Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Mr. Kevan Primarolo, rh Dawn Armstrong, rh Hilary Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Lynne Prosser, Gwyn Atkins, Charlotte Dean, Mrs. Janet Jowell, rh Tessa Purchase, Mr. Ken Austin, Mr. Ian Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Austin, John Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reed, Mr. Andy Bailey, Mr. Adrian Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keeble, Ms Sally Reid, rh John Balls, rh Ed Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Riordan, Mrs. Linda Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kelly, rh Ruth Robertson, John Battle, rh John Doran, Mr. Frank Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Bayley, Hugh Dowd, Jim Kennedy, rh Jane Roy, Mr. Frank Beckett, rh Margaret Drew, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Roy, Lindsay Begg, Miss Anne Durkan, Mark Kidney, Mr. David Ruane, Chris Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Angela Knight, rh Jim Ruddock, Joan Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ryan, rh Joan Benton, Mr. Joe Efford, Clive Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Salter, Martin Blackman, Liz Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lammy, rh Mr. David Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Blears, rh Hazel Engel, Natascha Laxton, Mr. Bob Seabeck, Alison Blunkett, rh Mr. David Farrelly, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr. Virendra Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fisher, Mark Lepper, David Shaw, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Jim Levitt, Tom Sheerman, Mr. Barry Brown, Lyn Flello, Mr. Robert Linton, Martin Sheridan, Jim Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Flint, rh Caroline Lloyd, Tony Simpson, Alan Brown, Mr. Russell Flynn, Paul Love, Mr. Andrew Simpson, David Browne, rh Des Foster, Mr. Michael Lucas, Ian Skinner, Mr. Dennis Buck, Ms Karen (Worcester) Mackinlay, Andrew Slaughter, Mr. Andy Burden, Richard Foster, Michael Jabez MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Burgon, Colin (Hastings and Rye) Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Burnham, rh Andy Francis, Dr. Hywel Mallaber, Judy Smith, Geraldine Butler, Ms Dawn Gapes, Mike Mann, John Smith, John Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Gardiner, Barry Marsden, Mr. Gordon Snelgrove, Anne Campbell, Mr. Alan Gerrard, Mr. Neil Martlew, Mr. Eric Soulsby, Sir Peter Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gilroy, Linda McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Southworth, Helen Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Godsiff, Mr. Roger McCabe, Steve Spellar, rh Mr. John Caton, Mr. Martin Goggins, rh Paul McCarthy, Kerry Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goodman, Helen McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Stewart, Ian Challen, Colin Griffiths, Nigel McCrea, Dr. William Stoate, Dr. Howard Chapman, Ben Grogan, Mr. John McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Chaytor, Mr. David Gwynne, Andrew McDonnell, John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Clapham, Mr. Michael Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Stringer, Graham Clark, Paul Hall, Mr. Mike McFall, rh John Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hall, Patrick McGovern, Mr. Jim Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hamilton, Mr. David McGrady, Mr. Eddie Tami, Mark Clelland, Mr. David Hanson, rh Mr. David McIsaac, Shona Taylor, Ms Dari Clwyd, rh Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet McKechin, Ann Taylor, David Coaker, Mr. Vernon Havard, Mr. Dai McKenna, Rosemary Thomas, Mr. Gareth Cooper, rh Yvette Healey, rh John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Thornberry, Emily Corbyn, Jeremy Hendrick, Mr. Mark Merron, Gillian Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cousins, Jim Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Miliband, rh David Touhig, rh Mr. Don Crausby, Mr. David Heppell, Mr. John Miliband, rh Edward Trickett, Jon Creagh, Mary Hesford, Stephen Miller, Andrew Turner, Dr. Desmond Cruddas, Jon Heyes, David Moffatt, Laura Turner, Mr. Neil Cummings, John Hill, rh Keith Mole, Chris Twigg, Derek 425 Deferred Division15 JULY 2009 Deferred Division 426

Ussher, Kitty Wilson, Phil Howard, rh Mr. Michael Randall, Mr. John Vaz, rh Keith Winnick, Mr. David Howarth, David Redwood, rh Mr. John Walley, Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Howell, John Reid, Mr. Alan Waltho, Lynda Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Hughes, Simon Rennie, Willie Huhne, Chris Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Ward, Claire Woolas, Mr. Phil Watts, Mr. Dave Hunter, Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wright, Mr. Anthony Whitehead, Dr. Alan Hurd, Mr. Nick Robertson, Hugh Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, David Jack, rh Mr. Michael Robertson, Mr. Laurence Williams, rh Mr. Alan Wright, Mr. Iain Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Rogerson, Dan Williams, Mrs. Betty Wright, Dr. Tony Jones, Mr. David Rowen, Paul Williams, Hywel Wyatt, Derek Kawczynski, Daniel Russell, Bob Keetch, Mr. Paul Sanders, Mr. Adrian NOES Key, Robert Scott, Mr. Lee Kirkbride, Miss Julie Shapps, Grant Afriyie, Adam Dorries, Nadine Knight, rh Mr. Greg Shepherd, Mr. Richard Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Duddridge, James Kramer, Susan Simmonds, Mark Alexander, Danny Dunne, Mr. Philip Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Simpson, Mr. Keith Amess, Mr. David Evans, Mr. Nigel Lancaster, Mr. Mark Smith, Sir Robert Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Evennett, Mr. David Lansley, Mr. Andrew Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Farron, Tim Laws, Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael Atkinson, Mr. Peter Featherstone, Lynne Leech, Mr. John Spink, Bob Baker, Norman Field, Mr. Mark Lewis, Dr. Julian Spring, Mr. Richard Baldry, Tony Foster, Mr. Don Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Stanley, rh Sir John Barker, Gregory Fox, Dr. Liam Lidington, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Baron, Mr. John Francois, Mr. Mark Luff, Peter Stuart, Mr. Graham Barrett, John Gale, Mr. Roger Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Stunell, Andrew Benyon, Mr. Richard Garnier, Mr. Edward Maclean, rh David Swayne, Mr. Desmond Beresford, Sir Paul Gauke, Mr. David Malins, Mr. Humfrey Swinson, Jo Binley, Mr. Brian George, Andrew Mates, rh Mr. Michael Tapsell, Sir Peter Bone, Mr. Peter Gibb, Mr. Nick Maude, rh Mr. Francis Taylor, Mr. Ian Boswell, Mr. Tim Gidley, Sandra May, rh Mrs. Theresa Thurso, John Brady, Mr. Graham Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne Tredinnick, David Brake, Tom Goodman, Mr. Paul McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Turner, Mr. Andrew Brazier, Mr. Julian Goodwill, Mr. Robert Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Breed, Mr. Colin Gray, Mr. James Moore, Mr. Michael Vara, Mr. Shailesh Brooke, Annette Grayling, Chris Moss, Mr. Malcolm Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Browne, Mr. Jeremy Grieve, Mr. Dominic Mulholland, Greg Waterson, Mr. Nigel Burns, Mr. Simon Gummer, rh Mr. John Mundell, David Watkinson, Angela Burrowes, Mr. David Hammond, Mr. Philip Murrison, Dr. Andrew Webb, Steve Burstow, Mr. Paul Hancock, Mr. Mike Newmark, Mr. Brooks Whittingdale, Mr. John Burt, Alistair Hands, Mr. Greg O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Wiggin, Bill Burt, Lorely Harper, Mr. Mark Öpik, Lembit Cable, Dr. Vincent Harris, Dr. Evan Ottaway, Richard Williams, Mr. Roger Cameron, rh Mr. David Harvey, Nick Paice, Mr. James Willott, Jenny Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hayes, Mr. John Paterson, Mr. Owen Winterton, Ann Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Heald, Mr. Oliver Penning, Mike Winterton, Sir Nicholas Carswell, Mr. Douglas Heath, Mr. David Penrose, John Wright, Jeremy Cash, Mr. William Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pickles, Mr. Eric Yeo, Mr. Tim Clappison, Mr. James Mr. David Pritchard, Mark Young, rh Sir George Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hemming, John Pugh, Dr. John Younger-Ross, Richard Cormack, Sir Patrick Hendry, Charles Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hoban, Mr. Mark Curry, rh Mr. David Hollobone, Mr. Philip Question accordingly agreed to. Davey, Mr. Edward Holmes, Paul Davies, Philip Horam, Mr. John 73WH 15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 74WH

United Kingdom citizens as second-class citizens, purely Westminster Hall on the basis of where they live. This is happening to women in Northern Ireland on a daily basis. Devolution is a good thing, and I have no doubt that Wednesday 15 July 2009 the devolution argument will be made today.

Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): [ANN WINTERTON in the Chair] Will my hon. Friend give way?

Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) Martin Salter: No. We did not devolve this issue to Scotland. There are, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting in my constituency and others, people from all over the be now adjourned.—(Mr. Dave Watts.) UK, whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, who have the right to travel to have heart 9.30 am operations or to see cancer specialists. However, somehow, a woman from Northern Ireland facing potentially serious Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): It is a pleasure medical complications or even worse cannot travel and to speak under your chairmanship, Mrs. Winterton. be funded for abortion services in the mainland in When I was first elected to Parliament, I served on England. How on earth can that be right? the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. Abortion It will be said that this is not a matter for the law in Northern Ireland was an issue then and it will Westminster Parliament. However, a significant e-petition continue to be an issue until the Government fulfil their on the No. 10 website has been signed by many thousands responsibility and grant equal rights to women in Northern of people, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, Ireland. I have no doubt that this is an immensely North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) tabled early-day controversial issue. Parliament has taken a fair old motion 625. Of course, in May 2008, Northern Irish battering in recent months, but we right hon. and hon. Members of Parliament had no compunction about Members are at our best when we do what we are sent coming to this place and voting to restrict the reproductive here to do: to engage in the battle of ideas with mutual rights of my constituents, and they voted to reduce the respect, particularly on difficult, controversial issues abortion limit down to 12 weeks. I am afraid that like this. I trust that this debate will be conducted with anyone in this debate who trots out the argument that that in mind. this is not a matter for Westminster has sold the pass.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke Will my hon. Friend give way? Newington) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware that, in addition to tabling an early-day motion, I tabled an Martin Salter: No. amendment to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology I well remember campaigning with colleagues from Bill on abortion rights in Northern Ireland, in response the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on a cross-party to which I received hundreds of letters from men and basis for the Belfast agreement in 1998. I campaigned women in Northern Ireland, saying that, on this matter, with Sinn Fein in the Falls road in the morning, with the the four major parties did not represent them and that Social Democratic and Labour party at lunchtime, and they looked to the Westminster Parliament to be a voice with the Progressive Unionist party in the afternoon in for women there? the Shankill road. [Interruption.] I am afraid that my colleagues from the Democratic Unionist party were on Martin Salter: I am well aware of the strength of the other side of the issue at that point. One thing that feeling on this issue. We are nothing—we are pygmy came through in talking informally to people was that, politicians in this place—if we do not stand up for the yes, this issue—sadly, in my view—unites the vast majority rights of people who feel that they do not have a voice. of politicians in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend is right to articulate the fact that many women—many people—in Northern Ireland feel that David Taylor: Will my hon. Friend give way on that they do not have a voice on this issue. point? Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Does the hon. Gentleman Martin Salter: No, I will not. agree that the nearer to the people the decision is taken, The single exceptions are Anna Lo from the Alliance the purer the democracy? People’s views should be party and Dawn Purvis from the Progressive Unionist respected. The vast majority of people in Northern party. I have immense respect for those two people, who Ireland want to protect the unborn child and are absolutely have shown great courage in standing up for what they right in holding that passionate view. believe in. Other politicians in Northern Ireland, particularly in the Assembly, share their views, but in the prevailing Martin Salter: I have great affection for the hon. atmosphere people feel that it is difficult to express Gentleman, but his argument blows apart if localism is them, or they feel uncomfortable doing so. We all taken down to its purist level, because the local decision understand that; we are all under pressure from our of the individual woman herself is the one that we are electors. defending. We should all be concerned about this matter. It is a Women in Northern Ireland have been waiting for human rights issue. It is staggering that anyone can sit more than 40 years to secure the same sexual and back and believe that it is okay to treat certain reproductive rights as women in the rest of the UK. 75WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 76WH

[Martin Salter] Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) (Lab): One way forward, which would not be popular The Abortion Act 1967 allows women in England, with all of us—compromise is always required—might Scotland and Wales access to safe, legal abortion services. be to allow women from Northern Ireland to have a free For women in Northern Ireland the situation is drastically abortion if they came to the mainland. In that way, different, because Victorian legislation—the Offences abortion would remain illegal in Northern Ireland, but Against the Person Act 1861—is still in place there, it would be legal for a Northern Irish woman to have an which is a scandal. That means that women are only abortion in England. That would be illogical, but at able to access abortion if their lives are in danger or if least it would allow such women access to free abortions. continuing the pregnancy would lead to severe and permanent harm. The penalty for obtaining an illegal Martin Salter: I thank my hon. for her intervention, abortion is imprisonment for life. which is in the spirit of my early-day motion 1754 and Northern Ireland women are living under a Victorian early-day motion 625 tabled by my hon. Friend the law created at a time of workhouses and child labour. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington. Women were not even allowed the right to vote at that That is the least that the Government should do—I am point, yet this law continues to govern the health and giving away the conclusion of my speech—and I do not lives of women in Northern Ireland. The law in Northern want to hear Ministers washing their hands of the Ireland is so restrictive that even a 14-year-old girl who matter by trying to farm it out elsewhere. had been raped or was a victim of incest, or even both, I shall give a short case study, and I am grateful to because that can happen, would not be able to access an organisations in Northern Ireland for providing me abortion just because she had been raped or was a with the information. Susan—the name has been victim of incest. It is one of the most restrictive laws on changed—is 37 and is married with four children. She abortion in Europe. has found that she is pregnant with her family’s fifth I have huge respect for people who raise moral issues child. She has recently moved back to Northern Ireland in this Chamber and elsewhere, but it defies my after living abroad for many years, and lives in a rural comprehension that somebody could say to a 14-year-old area where she has not built up a strong support network girl who had been raped that they would, because of of friends, so she feels isolated. She believes that having their particular religious beliefs and their own particular another child would place unbearable pressure on her, morality, force her to go through the agony of childbirth her husband and their children. Since her husband lost to satisfy their own moral code. I do not see what is his job 10 months ago, the family have been reliant on particularly moral about that, but I respect people who benefits and have no other financial or family support. have a different point of view. That makes it impossible for Susan to raise £2,000 or £2,500 even to travel to the mainland to secure an abortion. David Taylor: I would guess that this is one of the rare debates in which my views and those of my hon. A myth surrounding abortion in Northern Ireland is Friend are not closely aligned. Does he not accept that, that people there do not support a woman’s right to with policing and justice powers on the point of being choose. A survey by the Family Planning Association in devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, it is quite September 2008 showed that almost two thirds of probable that that Assembly will widen the laws to people—62 per cent.—in Northern Ireland support include reference to rape, incest and other issues? Is not abortion following rape and incest, but it seems that our that the forum in which these matters should be debated? politicians do not. Furthermore, in its submission to the He has been a strong supporter of devolution and I UN committee on the elimination of all forms of know that he still adheres to that point of view. discrimination against women, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland called for Martin Salter: I will touch on some of these points a “the same access to reproductive health care services and rights in little later, but I have already highlighted the inconsistency Northern Ireland as are available in Great Britain”. in respect of certain medical conditions: where there is It has been estimated that since the Abortion Act 1967 no devolution people have a right for their travel to be excluded Northern Ireland, about 70,000 women have funded, whereas in Northern Ireland that is not the travelled to England and overseas to have an abortion. case, solely in respect of abortion, even for rape victims. For the past 40 years, women have voted with their feet. For the vast majority of women in Northern Ireland who want access to safe, legal abortion services, their Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): I congratulate only option is to travel, either to the mainland or to my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I do other countries, such as Holland, and pay for an abortion not know whether he took part in any of the meetings procedure. Despite being UK taxpayers, women from with women trade unionists from Northern Ireland, but Northern Ireland who travel to the mainland are unable there was strong support among trade unions for the to access abortion services that are available to women measures that he proposes. They said that they were in the rest of the UK, free of charge through the NHS, looking to us to help them. which we all pay for, whether we are taxpayers in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. They Martin Salter: I thank my hon. Friend for that have to pay for their own travel, accommodation and intervention. That is why we are here today. abortion procedures, which can amount to £2,000 or A culture of secrecy continues to surround abortion even more. That is not okay, although it is manageable in Northern Ireland. The majority of women who have if one has £2,000, but many people in Northern Ireland abortions are unwilling to speak out about their experience do not have access to such cash, so their choices are because they fear the reaction from wider society, and limited. sometimes from family and friends. The Family Planning 77WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 78WH

Association is the only organisation in Northern Ireland have made a commitment to meet the obligations for all that offers non-directive, non-judgmental counselling UK citizens, not just some. There is a strong and and support services for women and their partners or powerful argument that the Government are neglecting families who are faced with a crisis pregnancy. Its office their responsibility to enable women in Northern Ireland in Belfast is picketed four days a week—I have seen to access safe and legal abortion services, as recommended videos of that—by anti-choice protesters, including by the UN committees. protesters from Precious Life. Those protesters not only I am sure that the Minister is aware that the Department harass women going into the building, but intimidate for International Development supports the global safe them by telling them that they will be waiting for them abortion campaign, because that is stated on its website. when they emerge. When the women leave, the protesters The Government provided £4 million to the safe abortion follow them to bus stops and train stations, and thrust action fund, and £6.5 million to women’s health false information and graphic photos in their faces. organisations. It is ironic to have one message for the That is not moral or acceptable, and I would not dream developing world, and totally different values and messages of doing that. for women in part of the United Kingdom. It is difficult We have been reading about the harrowing case of Sir to square that circle. Edward Downes and his wife who chose to go to There is anecdotal evidence of women in Northern Switzerland to die. Would anyone with a shred of morality Ireland going online to buy medication to induce an harass people who have made a brave, courageous, abortion, even though that is illegal. Some women have controversial but personal decision about their right to accessed rogue websites, and received incomplete take their own life? I leave that hanging, because I find it prescriptions or completely different substances. That one of the more revolting aspects of how the debate is could put their health in danger, and is a tragedy conducted. waiting to happen. The figures are there for all to see, Abortion is upsetting for women, and they may be and they show the number of deaths since 1967 as a distressed and need to access the Family Planning result of people being so desperate that they will try Association’s counselling services. Northern Ireland is a illegal abortion methods. That is as much a moral issue small community, and a woman being followed down as any other. the street and shouted at is hardly inconspicuous. Despite I do not believe that the Government whom I support the false information that the protesters give out, the do not care for women in Northern Ireland, or do not FPA’s counselling service offers a welcome opportunity want to end the scandal of them being treated as for women to make their own choice. That is what this second- class citizens in relation to their reproductive debate is about—women in a small part of the United rights. The Minister may respond—Ministers have Kingdom having the right to make a choice that is responded in this way in the past—by saying that this is available to women in the rest of England, Scotland and not a matter for the Government any more. He may try Wales. to wash his hands of it, but I hope not. I say that it is an The culture of secrecy also extends to politicians in issue for this Parliament and for all Members of this Northern Ireland—I touched on this earlier—and many House, as Northern Ireland Members have demonstrated are unable to admit that they are pro-choice because of by their willingness to restrict abortion rights for my their party’s stated anti-choice policies. I have had dialogue constituents and those of other right hon. and hon. with Northern Ireland politicians who felt that they Members who are on the other side of the issue from were in a compromise situation. The secrecy around them. abortion in Northern Ireland permeates every thread of I ask the Government to commit themselves to extending society, and masks the reality of what happens to the Abortion Act 1967 to Northern Ireland while they women when they are faced with an unplanned pregnancy. can still do so. I am not holding my breath for the It adds to the anguish and struggle that they face when response to that request, but if they will not do that, making the decision and raising the money, sometimes which they should, they could start by redressing the without the support of family and friends. Such women blatant inequality faced by women by providing funding decide to access safe and legal abortion services behind for women who are forced to travel to access safe and a veil of secrecy, and that is not acceptable in 21st century legal abortion services, so that they can access them free Britain. of charge in the national health service that we all pay In the past year, two UN committees have stated that for. That is the very least that should be done. abortion law in Northern Ireland needs to be amended. In 2008, the United Nations committee on the elimination Several hon. Members rose— of all forms of discrimination against women recommended that the UK should initiate a process of public consultation Ann Winterton (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the in Northern Ireland on abortion law. In line with general next speaker, I make a plea for contributions to be as recommendation 24 on women and health and the brief as possible, because I have received many names of Beijing platform for action, the committee also urged people wanting to speak, and obviously many people the UK to consider amending the abortion law to have risen wanting to speak. We must also have the remove punitive provisions imposed on women who winding-up speeches, which may themselves have to be undergo abortion. slightly curtailed. I call David Simpson. Regardless of whether the Government are devolving policing and justice, which includes abortion, to Northern 9.51 am Ireland, they should remember that to UN committees, Britain and the British Government are still responsible David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome you for the UK, which includes Wales, Scotland and Northern to the Chair, Lady Winterton. I congratulate the hon. Ireland. By signing up to UN treaties, the Government Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) on obtaining 79WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 80WH

[David Simpson] show the same commitment to the life in the womb as they show for consumer parenthood and disposable the debate. As he said himself, it is on an issue that is babies. The abortion laws across the UK do need to be very controversial across the United Kingdom, including, reviewed, updated and amended, but they need to be of course, Northern Ireland. reviewed away from the current situation and the free-for-all Each time that the subject of abortion is debated or that exists in many parts of the country. I urge hon. referenced in Parliament, I am struck by a number of Members to go down that road, not the one that they things that quickly rise to the surface whenever it comes are trying to map out for the people of Northern to those who style themselves as pro-choice. I am frequently Ireland. struck by their thinly concealed anti-democratic, anti- libertarian and anti-human rights stance. 9.56 am Why do I say “anti-democratic”? The answer is simple. Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): I thank my hon. On both sides of the House of Commons—on the Friend the Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) Government and Opposition Benches—there is probably for raising this subject. It is a very difficult one and near unanimous agreement that Northern Ireland should clearly this Chamber is very divided. The difficulties have a devolved Assembly, with devolved powers, and faced by young women in Northern Ireland came home that that should eventually include policing and justice to me when I went to a meeting in Portcullis house; I powers, but of course for some hon. Members, the think that it was last week. Baroness Blood chaired the people of Northern Ireland are not to be trusted with meeting. When I heard her talking about the situation the issue of abortion. Despite the fact that there is of young women in Northern Ireland—women of child- overwhelming agreement across the political divide, bearing age—I was reminded of the arguments that I Northern Ireland, in the eyes of some hon. Members, is had to sustain alone, with almost no support whatever simply not grown up enough, mature enough, clever from other people, regarding the forced marriages of enough or modern enough to be trusted with that young women in my constituency 12 years ago. When I decision. The message being sent to Northern Ireland was elected 12 years ago, many people were coming to by some hon. Members could not be clearer: “We me for help to get a marriage annulled or to get divorced support devolution for you, but only in so far as you do because they had been forced into a marriage in Pakistan. what we like and what we want.” I had to do what I could. I also had to contact the Islamabad high commission to put a stop on entry Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham) (Con): Will the hon. clearance for the person coming in. Gentleman give way? I got very little support on that, for the same reasons that women in Northern Ireland are not getting much David Simpson: My speech will be short, so I will not support now—because the politicians in Northern Ireland give way. know that it would affect their votes at the next election What I have described is an anti-democratic stance. if they supported young girls asking for the right to Why did I use the term “anti-libertarian”? Again, whenever have abortions there or asking for help to come here. the subject of abortion comes up, it quickly becomes Still to this day, the girls I helped in my constituency evident that if hon. Members speak against abortion, will not talk about that situation, for the same reason speak in favour of tightening up abortion provisions or that the girls in Northern Ireland will not. In Northern express a principled anti-abortion and pro-life position, Ireland, it is probably referred to as “What will the there are some who cannot listen to that message respectfully neighbours say?” In Keighley, it was family pride and but feel compelled to resort to name calling and demonising family honour that was afflicting them. So I feel as the people who do that. We have seen that in the past in though I am in the deep end with this. I understand very the House. clearly what the girls in Northern Ireland are going Why did I mention an anti-human rights approach? through. People can tell by my voice that I am finding it Some people take the view that the solution to what quite difficult to talk about this. However, I am here this they describe as the denial of a person’s right to choose morning to maintain the position that women in the is to deny a child’s right to live. I do not believe that, if UK have the right to control their own fertility and anyone in the House were to say that a black or coloured their own child bearing. baby, a Jewish baby or a baby from the travelling community should have its life ended, there would be a Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): single Member of the House who would not be rightly Will the hon. Lady give way? outraged, no matter what justification was given by that person. However, there are those who tell us that a baby Mrs. Cryer: No, I am sorry. If I give way, I will not not yet born should have its life ended for no other start again, because I am finding this so difficult. reason than another person’s right to choose. I cannot At the moment, young women in Northern Ireland and will not support that kind of cruelty being visited are denied a right that women in the rest of the UK are upon the innocent. Rather than making Northern Ireland allowed to have. However, I want to go back a little. I like the rest of the UK on this issue, it would— will be 70 later this year and I was of child-bearing age during the period before David Steel’s 1967 Act came Martin Salter: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? in, so I know what the position was then. Many friends who had babies brought them up and were good mothers David Simpson: No, I will not; I shall be finished in to them, but they had reservations about having them—they 30 seconds. Rather than making Northern Ireland like perhaps already had two or three children, so they had the rest of the UK on this issue, it would be far better if anxieties. At the time, women were not able to have a hon. Members were to campaign for the reverse and to legal abortion. 81WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 82WH

Women have always been able to access safe abortions— who cannot understand or deal with these issues ourselves the same must, and in fact does, apply as regards and who need the wisdom and intervention of British Northern Ireland—if they have the money and the politicians and international instruments. wherewithal to find out where they are available, and I make no apology for standing here as, among other David Steel simply ensured that there was a level playing things, an Irish nationalist. As far as I am concerned, an field for all women. I suggest to Democratic Unionist Irish national Parliament should legislate on this issue Members that women in Northern Ireland today who for the whole of Ireland. I mentioned international want an abortion can get one if they have the money to instruments, and a protocol has been fully promulgated come to this country for one. Those who do not have in the European Union making it clear that no European the money and who do not know how to get through instrument or law will override the right of the Government the legal loopholes will not have an abortion. They will and the Parliament of Ireland on abortion legislation. I have to bring into the world a child that they do not speak from that very clear perspective and I make no want and that they will possibly have adopted at an apology for that. early stage. My hon. Members for Reading, West and for Keighley I have known women in such situations. In fact, I had (Mrs. Cryer) made several points. I fully accept that a friend who performed an abortion on herself. She lost there is conscience on both sides of the debate, and the a great deal of blood and had to be taken into hospital. sooner we all recognise that the better. That was strongly She had to put out all sorts of stories to explain why reflected in some of the remarks by the hon. Member that happened. She had the beginnings of multiple for Keighley. sclerosis, and her condition deteriorated a great deal shortly after she performed the abortion. I am quite Reference was made to the call by the Equality convinced that the two things were connected. Had she Commission for Northern Ireland to introduce the same been able to have a legal, safe abortion, she would not rights as in Britain. The Good Friday agreement, which have been forced into that situation. the hon. Member for Reading, West mentioned, provides for strong equality measures. Section 75 of the Northern I hope that the message that goes out from this Ireland Act 1998 names seven different grounds for Chamber is that the UK Parliament cannot go on in the equality protection, one of which is disability. Many present situation, with women in a small corner of the groups representing disabled people fundamentally object UK being denied the rights that are enjoyed by so many to the amended 1967 Act precisely because it permits women in the rest of the UK. That is so unfair. I hope abortion practically right up to birth in the case of that Northern Ireland Members of Parliament will foetal abnormality. Foetal abnormality is used to cover eventually change their attitudes. If we cannot achieve a wide variety of issues and disabilities. In many cases, that, I hope that Ministers in this country will make the Act sends the signal that those with disabilities available some facility to help girls who want to come to would have been better off not being born. I know this country by ensuring that they can access abortions many disabled people, not only in Northern Ireland, and that they have the money to travel here. The current who fundamentally object to that dimension of the Act. situation is so wrong and so unfair on such girls, and I The hon. Gentleman said that the law in Northern appeal to the Minister to look carefully at the issue to Ireland is one of the most restrictive pieces of such make sure that no one in the UK is denied an abortion legislation in Europe, but the 1967 Act, which he advocates simply because they do not have the money to catch a should be extended to Northern Ireland, is one of the flight here. most liberal, if not the most liberal, in Europe. Why should we resign ourselves to that? 10.4 am The hon. Gentleman said that those of us who voted to amend the 1967 Act last year, when the Human Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure to Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 was going through serve under your chairmanship, Lady Winterton. the House, had sold the pass and did not have the right The hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) to object to the extension of the 1967 Act to Northern said that we would be pygmy politicians if we did not do Ireland. I simply point out to him that there was a full, what we were sent here to do. What he advocates is clear and present threat to use the 2008 Act—this was certainly not something that I or my colleagues from the intent of many Members of the House—to extend other Northern Ireland constituencies feel that we were the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland sent here to do. I hope that the implication of his Members faced that very real threat and we were within reference to pygmy politicians was not that those of us our rights to seek amendments to mitigate it. from Northern Ireland are somehow less capable However, if the hon. Gentleman was trying to suggest parliamentarians or legislators. that there should be some new constitutional compact fully to declare that this Parliament will never attempt to extend the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland, while Martin Salter: Let me make it clear to the hon. Northern Ireland Members will stay out of subsequent Gentleman that I said that we would be pygmy politicians legislation, that is a separate debate that we need to if we shied away from debating this issue. I respect his have. He cannot, however, say that we do not have the arguments and I am delighted that he has been given an right to vote on the 1967 Act while he and other opportunity to set them out. Members reserve the right to say that they will extend it to Northern Ireland. Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that because many of us in Northern Ireland get a bit fed up Martin Salter: Let me make it clear that that was not with British politicians who seem to think that they are the point that I was making. I was merely pre-empting the political Gullivers while we are intellectual Lilliputians, an argument, which has been made in the past, that 83WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 84WH

[Martin Salter] I have never subscribed to the view of those who argue that abortion is a matter of a woman’s right to Westminster politicians have no right to discuss the choose, as if women had an exclusive right. To me it is a issue. I was pointing out that Northern Ireland politicians partnership between a woman, a man, a child and, felt that they had the right to vote on legislation that indeed, God. However, it is the mother who is pregnant affects my constituents. At no point in my contribution—the and who will give birth and raise the child. I believe that hon. Gentleman will be able to check the record—did I Parliament cannot wash its hands of the issue, any question their right to campaign against the 1967 Act. more than the issue of abortion itself can be wished away. We are talking about discrimination against half Mark Durkan: I do not want to dwell on that, because the population of Northern Ireland—the female half. I want to conclude, but I was taking up the hon. That is institutional, financial discrimination by the Gentleman’s point. He said that those of us who had British Government against women who have paid their voted to amend the 1967 Act had sold the pass and taxes and national insurance contributions. I am therefore therefore had no right any more to object to Westminster ashamed that in our United Kingdom we treat women extending the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland. Well, we in Northern Ireland differently and penalise them financially. do object to the 1967 Act as it stands and we object to However, it is rather worse than that. The situation its extension to Northern Ireland. If he wants to carry faced by women in Northern Ireland has become tainted that argument, it brings us into the case for some new by a very nasty atmosphere of punishment and revenge constitutional compact here, which may well be worth by those who think that they are morally superior. I do looking at. not know of any women taking the decision to have an The hon. Member for Keighley suggested that politicians abortion lightly. From the figures, it is not naughty in Northern Ireland do not want to deal with the issue schoolgirls who have most of the abortions; 70 per cent. because it would affect our vote. The politicians who of them involve women aged 20 to 34—years, one are elected by people in Northern Ireland come here on would have thought, of some discretion and common the basis of clear and credible positions. The issue is sense. Of course, 64 per cent. of all terminations in much discussed and debated in Northern Ireland, in the England take place at under nine weeks’ gestation. Assembly, on the airwaves and elsewhere. The suggestion However, the fact is that in 2008 1,173 women were that there is total secrecy and radio silence is wrong. forced to travel to England from Northern Ireland for There are contradictions in the arguments that are termination of pregnancy. In parenthesis another 4,600 being made by my hon. Members because on the one came from the Republic of Ireland. hand the hon. Member for Reading, West says opinion There are far too many abortions in our country and polls show that well over 60 per cent. of people favour we have all failed to find the answer. We continue to let the extension of the Abortion Act, yet on the other down generations of young people of both sexes, and hand the hon. Member for Keighley says that we are we need to address that. We should start by stopping failing to legislate on the issue because we fear for our the financial discrimination against women in Northern vote. Ireland who face substantial costs of £2,000 and more when they have already paid their taxes. It is time that 10.11 am we stopped punishing women and started educating men. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Lady Winterton. I had the good fortune to grow up in a loving family and I speak 10.15 am as a father and grandfather, whose fourth grandchild is Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): It is a due in a month. I also speak as a Christian and I pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Lady Winterton. therefore believe that every cell of every human body is sacred. I support the stated position of my Church, the I believe that when Members of Parliament dare Church of England, which is strong opposition to abortion. speak about abortion on demand they will soon find For me, one abortion is one too many and represents a themselves engulfed in something of a hostile environment. failure of all of us. I remember the last debate that was held in the House on this subject, and I can assure hon. Members that There are, however, many Christians and people of anyone who either mentioned an opposite point of view faith of other religions who balance their opposition in or pro-life position or even happened to quote a verse principle to abortion with the view that God is from the scriptures was totally laughed at and mocked compassionate towards the needs and suffering of pregnant in that debate. I am delighted that this is a more sane women and those around them. I respect the differences and normal debate. between the countries of the United Kingdom and see them as a strength, not a weakness. Therefore, I do not I appreciate the fact that the hon. Member for Reading, for a moment seek to undermine the perhaps more West (Martin Salter) brought the issue up. I have no conservative traditional social attitudes in one part or objection to the matter being discussed. The question is another of the United Kingdom. I think that it is a how it is resolved, which is a matter of the opinion of shame that there are not more women in the debate, but the people of Northern Ireland and their elected that is a feature of our Parliament. I also think that we representatives, and should be left as that. However, should recognise that we live in a male-dominated society when many people champion the cause of minorities with a male-dominated Parliament and Churches. I across the United Kingdom, it is regarded as laudable. sometimes wonder whether men should vote at all, or I want to champion the cause of the minority: the even speak, on these issues in public. After all, all unborn child—the child who has not the ability to pregnancies are caused by men and it is women who speak in the House. We will hear a lot of talk about take the grief. human rights and the right of the woman. I have never 85WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 86WH heard, of course, whenever we have talked about the The tragedy of the woman that has been raped is not rights in this debate, about the right of the unborn eliminated by compounding it, by killing the baby. We child. Somehow, they do not seem to have rights, or have to lay some of these issues to rest. Another reason those rights seem to be lesser compared with others. given for abortion is abnormality. Is the possible abnormality of an unborn child a justification for abortion? Mr. Gregory Campbell: Is not my hon. Friend touching Whenever we talk about aborting babies because they on the very nub of the issue? The debate and resolution may be handicapped, we are forced to make serious will be found only when all of us, as adult parliamentarians, value judgments that I believe are reserved only for God balance the plight, needs and concerns of women who and not for people sitting in this Chamber. find themselves pregnant, whom we have got to have a Why is there such haste? Let us get to the nub of the concern for, and the plight of the unborn child, whom matter. The reason for the debate was made known by very few people appear to stand up for and speak for. Dr. Audrey Simpson. She said that once the responsibility is transferred, as part of the handover of policing and Dr. McCrea: I thank my hon. Friend for that point. justice powers, it will be very difficult to make a change. It is also interesting that out of the 18 Members of It is nothing to do with it being the right time to make a Parliament for Northern Ireland constituencies not one change; it is the right time to get one result—to force the has signed the early-day motion of the hon. Member Westminster Government’s hand. Indeed, she also said for Reading, West. Of course he pointed out that that that the United Kingdom Government do not have the was because we were political pygmies. That is slur guts to stand up to Northern Ireland politicians. against pygmies, because I think that they are quite nice Who does Dr. Simpson think she is? I have the right people, and to suggest that is rather insulting. as an elected representative to speak on behalf of my Of course, contradictory messages are coming out, as people. When was Dr. Simpson elected? If she believes rightly pointed out by the hon. Member for Foyle that she is right, she should put herself before the (Mark Durkan). For example, the hon. Member for electorate. She should stand in a Northern Ireland Reading, West suggested to us that we had not the guts constituency and find out whether she represents the to take the hard decisions, because we were behind our people. I assure the House that she would find out that electorate: that our electorate were well ahead of us and she does not represent them. She will not sit in this wanted us to do it, but we were not willing. However, place. the hon. Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer) suggested that politicians were not doing so because it would Mrs. Cryer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? affect their vote. With the greatest respect, Labour Members cannot have it both ways—they usually try to, Dr. McCrea: No; I am finishing my remarks, Lady but some of us here are not willing to let them. They Winterton, as you asked. should not try to bamboozle us with nonsense. It is interesting to note that, when someone is planning [Interruption.] I was elected to the House to represent to terminate the life of an unborn child and destroy the my constituents. I assure the House that when the miracle of God’s creation, they refer to the unborn as a Northern Ireland constituency representatives here today foetus or the embryo. By contrast, when they plan to face their electorate, they will discover whether the keep the child and cherish it, it is always known as “my electorate are backing them. baby” or “my child”. We never hear anyone saying, “I’m going to have a little foetus.” We never hear an abortionist Martin Salter: I ask the hon. Gentleman a simple saying, “We’re going to kill the little baby.” Our respect question: is he in favour of allowing an abortion for a for the unborn seems to be strangely affected by the woman who has been raped? circumstances, and I was not elected to the House to support that position. Dr. McCrea: It is interesting that, whenever we come to talk about the matter, an emotive example is always given. Let us be frank: the majority of people— 10.23 am Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) Martin Salter: Yesorno? (Lab): Many people feel very strongly about this matter, and I am one. Some may know that my family comes Dr. McCrea: With the greatest respect, the hon. from Northern Ireland, and that some members of my Gentleman cannot expect me, as a parliamentarian, family still live there. simply to answer the question as he wants it answered. I The people of Northern Ireland have many strengths, shall answer it in the way that I was elected to answer, but I do not understand why their politicians will not which is what I stand for—and I make no apology for it. allow women to have access to abortion. The politicians Let me say this about rape. Does destroying the may not agree with abortion themselves, and many of unborn baby eradicate the tragedy of the rape? Does an their constituents may not agree with it, but I tell them act of violence against the mother justify an act of this: women in desperate circumstances will have an violence against the unborn child? abortion. They may have one illegally, they may try to do it themselves, they may come to the mainland to Emily Thornberry: Will the hon. Gentleman give have it or they may go to Holland; but they will have an way? abortion and we cannot stop them. What we can do is make it fair. We should give Dr. McCrea: No, I am sorry. If the hon. Lady catches women fair access to hospitals in Northern Ireland, your eye, Lady Winterton, I am sure that she will be where they can have the support of their mothers and called. where they can have the abortion quietly and discreetly. 87WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 88WH

[Emily Thornberry] Emily Thornberry: I respect the hon. Gentleman, but I do not agree with him. I believe that individual women Please believe me, they will not have an abortion lightly. should be allowed to make individual decisions. However They will have an abortion only in desperate circumstances. strongly the hon. Gentleman may feel about the matter, Every abortion is a tragedy, and every woman who has I believe that women should be trusted to make their had an abortion believes that. They will do it only if own decisions about their lives. They will continue to do they absolutely have to do so. so, whether or not he stops them.

Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): Will the Bob Spink: Will the hon. Lady give way? hon. Lady give way? Emily Thornberry: No, because others wish to speak. Emily Thornberry: No. If we cannot grab back the power that we are about There are good things about Northern Ireland, and to devolve to Northern Ireland, the least that we can do many good things have happened there. Its economy is is allow women from Northern Ireland to have access to booming, and it is becoming much more liberal socially. abortion under the national health service. I do not There are now gay pride marches in Northern Ireland. want that smutty compromise; it is not right. I believe There is a growing group of people there who come that women in Northern Ireland should be allowed to from a socially liberal background and are still not walk into a hospital as I could in London, and as a adequately represented by their elected representatives. woman from Northern Ireland’s sister could if she lived The 21st century is coming to Northern Ireland, as it is in my constituency. It is not right, but it is the best that coming to the rest of the world. It is important that that we can offer. I wish that we could at least do that before growing group should have some political representation. handing over these powers in Northern Ireland to gentlemen Many who are socially liberal have chosen to move such as the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea), away from Northern Ireland, but some are now moving whose views do not represent those of everyone in back. Changes are going on in Northern Ireland. Its Northern Ireland. At the moment, such people do not politicians must change too. I deeply regret that the have a voice. powers devolved to Northern Ireland under the Good Friday agreement included those relating to women and Ann Winterton (in the Chair): I intend to call the abortion. That was a mistake. We should have done the Front-Bench spokesmen at 20 minutes to 11. Three same with Northern Ireland as we did with Scotland speakers remain to speak before then. They can work and Wales: the issue should be a UK-wide one. I wish out for themselves how long they have. such authority had not been passed over, but it was. I appreciate that I could be accused of opportunism, 10.30 am but I wish that we could grab the power back at the last minute, saying that we had made a mistake. I wish that Dr. Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast, South) (SDLP): It we had not given Northern Ireland the authority over is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Lady abortion. I do not believe that Northern Ireland politicians Winterton. I did not intend to speak, but I cannot let represent the views of the majority in Northern Ireland. my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Martin They are behind the times. However, I believe strongly Salter) get away with some of the crazy stuff that I in the Good Friday agreement. I believe strongly in a heard earlier. He depicted me and my constituents as peaceful Northern Ireland and in its growing prosperity, primitive savages who attack pregnant women in the and letting it move on. streets. I live beside a Family Planning Association clinic, my constituency office is beside it, and for 30 years Martin Salter: Would my hon. Friend allow me to put I have worked as a general practitioner beside it. Never, on record that the reason for having this debate today is in that whole time, have I seen baying mobs attacking nothing to do with the legislative timetable? It is everything people at the clinic. Occasionally there are crazies—there to do with a film showing women in a distressed state are crazy people on the pro-life side of the argument—and being harassed by Precious Life outside the FPA some of these things can happen, but for God’s sake headquarters. That is why we are debating the subject please do not paint us as primitive savages. today. Bob Spink: As a GP, does the hon. Gentleman share Emily Thornberry: I fully understand that, but I am my utter revulsion at the number of late-term abortions speaking on my own behalf. I wish that we could go due to supposed deformities—the child might be beautiful, back on the mistake that we made when the Good but have a hare-lip or something else perfectly treatable? Friday agreement started: power over abortion should That is why people get terribly wound up. not have been part of the devolution package. Dr. McDonnell: The hon. Gentleman is right. Some Mark Durkan: My hon. Friend said that Northern of us face a conundrum. For 30 years I have worked Ireland is more socially liberal. She offered as evidence with women in stress—I might be unique in the Chamber gay pride marches and so on. Does she appreciate that in that sense—and I have dealt with them sympathetically, many of us are on what she would regard as the socially humanely and compassionately. However, there is a liberal side of those arguments, and that we have stood difficulty, to which I have yet to hear an answer. up for gay pride and participated in such events? Abortion, We spend millions struggling to save babies of 22-week however, is different. It is not about the individual’s gestation, and putting them in incubators, and quite sexual or other rights; it affects the rights of an innocent often those lives are preserved, even if they are not of a third party, namely the child. high quality—that is another issue—but we throw 24-week 89WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 90WH gestation babies in a bucket to die. Somebody must I have been struck by the number of letters that I have provide an answer. We have got to find a balance. Some received from women in Northern Ireland who do not revolting arguments were made during the debate on feel that the male politicians who have spoken today the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008. At speak for them. As people who are currently part of that time, we ducked the issue, but it must be dealt with. Great Britain, they are looking to their British Parliament We cannot throw a viable foetus—a viable infant—into to give them relief and to stand up for their rights. Male a bucket to die at 24 weeks and say that it is right. politicians on both sides in Northern Ireland do not I do not think that 62 per cent. of people in Northern agree on many things, but they agree about abortion. Ireland are in favour of abortion. In my estimation, the That is what makes women, whether ordinary women, figure might be 30 per cent. Yes, by manipulating the mothers, daughters or those in the FPA, so desperate 30 per cent. figure—if one picked only those who were for their Parliament—we are their Parliament, too—to in favour—one could get 62 per cent. However, it does come to their aid and stand up for their rights. not stand up to sense that if two-thirds of our population As colleagues have said, abortion is not a problem are in favour of abortion, suddenly politicians like me for middle-class girls and daughters—even of some cower in front of the 30 or 33 per cent. who are not in politicians in the Assembly—with the necessary money, favour. contacts, time and support. However, it is a problem It upsets me that there is no Government NHS support for thousands of working-class women and girls in service for a young woman who wants to keep a child. Northern Ireland who either have to find the money Often the pressures are economic, and time and again, and so end up coming late in their pregnancy—a in such cases, I have had to revert to various faith-based doctor has spoken about late abortions—without groups to provide support—often across religious divides family support and facing a more dangerous abortion and all the rest—for somebody who is desperate to hold than would otherwise have been the case, or who on to an infant, but unable to do so for economic cannot find the money at all and are forced to attempt reasons. a botched job at home. We face a number of problems. Before we sort the I will not take lectures on morality from people who debate once and for all, we need to start caring for are willing to see defenceless, working-class girls people and young pregnant women, and not just seeing frightened and alone attempting to induce an abortion this as a disposable item. in their back bedroom. Is that morality in the 21st century? This is a difficult issue, but people need to 10.34 am have more respect for women and the seriousness with Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke which they regard this decision. People need to Newington) (Lab): Like all hon. Members in this recognise that women in Northern Ireland deprived of Chamber—I think—I believe that any abortion is a their rights for so long look to us, the British tragedy. However, let me press a point on some of my Parliament. Somebody said, “What is the urgency? male colleagues: they talk as though women take abortions What is the pressing concern?” The pressing concern is lightly and that they do it for social convenience and that it is 40 years since women in the British isles got without thought. I urge my male colleagues to have a that right. We can argue about the parameters of our little more respect for the women of Northern Ireland. abortion law, but I do not believe that there is an Every woman whom I have known who has had, or argument for continuing to treat women in Northern contemplated, an abortion has gone through agony. So Ireland as second-class citizens. I should like to hear a little more respect for women Finally, a colleague said that he would like the decision who face that appalling decision. taken by an Irish national Parliament. As it happens, yesterday, I was privileged to chair a meeting addressed Nadine Dorries: Will the hon. Lady give way? by the President of Sinn Fein, who was reopening the debate on a united Ireland. I, too, would like to see a Ms Abbott: I am afraid that time is against me. decision taken by a Parliament of a united Ireland, but In July last year, I tabled an amendment to the Northern Ireland is currently part of the British isles Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 that and this matter falls to the British Parliament. So I would have extended the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland. apologise to no one for speaking up for the rights of all I did not do that because I wanted to override the will of women in the British isles. the Assembly. We should bear in mind that that is permissive legislation. If it applied to Northern Ireland, 10.39 am it would not force a single woman there to have an abortion, which is why some of what I have heard is so Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham) (Con): I have been wrong-headed. If women do not want to have abortions, involved in this debate for more than 40 years, and we and if they are not in positions in which they need to have heard today all the arguments made throughout contemplate them, permissive legislation itself is not a that time. If there is one plea, it is that we go to the problem. Unfortunately, my amendment never got debated barricades in the cause of toleration. Not many people on the Floor of the House. With the greatest respect to do that. The compromise argument that the women in my colleagues on the Treasury Bench, I believe that the Northern Ireland who need and agonise over having an Government colluded in that, because they knew that, abortion should have it paid for in a hospital in Great had it got to the Floor of the House, there was a very Britain is perhaps the cause of toleration. Great good chance that it would have got through, because congratulations should be paid to our Northern Ireland there is a pro-choice majority on both sides of the politicians for acquiring such toleration and creating an House—thank goodness that this is not a party-political Assembly that represents a variety of opposing views. issue, as it is in the United States, where we see Let them please now apply that toleration to this issue demonstrations outside abortion clinics. as well. 91WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 92WH

10.40 am was illegal, we would never remove it from our society. As a matter of pragmatism—not high principle or Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): religious belief—if that is going to be part of our It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham society, I want to see it done in the most humane, (Mrs. Lait). It is a shame that she did not have the clinical and controlled way possible. That is why the opportunity to expand her views, because she would Government should, even at this late stage, take a have made a valuable contribution to the debate. careful look to see whether there is an opportunity for I congratulate the hon. Member for Reading, West this House, while it retains the power, to have the debate (Martin Salter) on securing the debate. My heart did that Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom, not leap with excitement when I saw that it had reached deserves. the Order Paper, but we have had a good and, for the most part, well-measured debate, and I congratulate the 10.45 am hon. Gentleman on the manner in which he opened it. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the so-called travel Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I will option. Northern Ireland is, and remains, part of the put forward the Conservative party’s view on the logistics United Kingdom, so the fact that the abortion law does of the matter and then make one or two personal not extend to the Northern Ireland counties does not comments. Having discussed the matter with my party—or, make abortion illegal. None the less, for logistic reasons—for certainly, a number of people in it—we take the view reasons relating to travel and the rest of it—it remains a that this is a matter for the devolved Assembly. As has difficult option for women there to pursue. That messy been pointed out, the devolved Assembly cannot take compromise serves nobody well. Moreover, it encourages that decision at the moment because policing and criminal a double standard that pretends that it is all right for justice remains a reserved matter. As the hon. Member Northern Ireland to have a different law from the rest of for Islington, South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) us as long as people can quietly cross the Irish sea and recognised, there were good reasons for reserving such have their terminations on the UK mainland. From the matters to Westminster. It was to do not with keeping point of view of the women concerned, it is an exceptionally control over abortion, but with the terrorist situation unsatisfactory situation. When young women contemplate that had existed in Northern Ireland for very many a termination, they are at their most emotionally vulnerable. years. None the less, there are moves to devolve policing To remove them from the immediate ambit of their and criminal justice. friends and family at that most vulnerable time is The target date, as set out in the St. Andrews agreement, unacceptable. was May 2008. That date was not set in legislation, but that was the target. Of course, we have gone somewhat The hon. Gentleman also spoke about the picketing beyond that because there was not sufficient confidence of Family Planning Association premises, which was in the community to devolve such issues, but the matter taken up by the hon. Member for Belfast, South is back on the agenda. I have had meetings with (Dr. McDonnell). Clearly, there are extreme views on all representatives of all the political parties in Northern sides about this issue. If such picketing is going on, it is Ireland, some very recently, and they say that the decisions unacceptable. I bow to nobody in the defence of freedom on devolving policing and justice are imminent and will of speech, but nobody suggests that freedom of speech probably go through. If such a decision goes through, is an unlimited right. When it comes to targeting individuals the Conservative party does not intend to oppose the who are at their most vulnerable, that is an unacceptable devolution of policing and justice. We will accept that use of freedom of speech, whatever the basis of it they have decided to devolve those issues. When it gets may be. to that stage, the Northern Ireland Assembly can decide Finally, the hon. Member for Reading, West mentioned on abortion—they cannot at the moment because it is a that women in the 21st century can go online to obtain matter of criminal justice and not health. We take the abortifacients. If that is happening, women in Northern view that that is the right way to proceed. Ireland are clearly in the same situation that women in I have every respect for the Minister, but I hope that the rest of the country were in prior to David Steel’s he will allow me a little criticism for the way in which Abortion Act 1967. When I was a law student, I remember the Government dealt with some issues in Northern reading about abortion cases in Scots law. At that time, Ireland before the Assembly was restored. Decisions slippery elm bark was one of the abortifacients that was were taken in Committee in this House on matters such used, and it was a brutal and inhumane procedure. as local government reform and education reform in Many hon. Members have talked about starting from advance of the Assembly being restored. That was a position of strongly held principle. I respect such wrong. Those decisions should not have been taken principles, especially when they come from a religious here in advance of the Assembly being restored. They perspective. However, for me, this has always been an should have been left to the Assembly. I take the same entirely pragmatic question. My view was formed some view on the issue under debate. I am very happy to 26 years ago when I was outside a polling station in discuss it, but decisions should not be taken in advance Glasgow. During a quiet spell, I spoke to the duty of the devolution of policing and criminal justice, especially policeman who was reaching the end of his 30-year as all the main parties in Northern Ireland are united on service. He said, “What party are you for, Sonny?”—people this one issue and no other. I have been doing this job used to call me Sonny in those days. “I am a Liberal,” I for four-and-a-half years and can remember no other replied. He said, “David Steel’s abortion Bill was the issue on which all the parties were united. For us to take best thing that ever happened. People forget that when legislative steps that not only undermined the role of women went into public toilets to have abortions it was the Assembly but went against everything that all the the police who had to go in and remove the foetus from political parties in Northern Ireland are saying would the toilet.” I was struck then that whether or not abortion be wrong and somewhat anti-democratic. 93WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 94WH

The hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) have had is welcome. We have had a good debate and said that he had campaigned for the Belfast agreement. some very strong and passionate opinions have been He went down the Falls road and other such places for expressed by Northern Ireland politicians and others, which I commend him. I had some reservations about including, my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley the agreement and expressed them at the time, but he (Mrs. Cryer), who has a tremendous record of dealing supported it and he supported devolution. Let us complete with very difficult issues. Indeed, she and I have worked the devolution and let the people of Northern Ireland on some together in the past. decide. In his opening remarks, my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West twice said that I would wash my Nadine Dorries: On a slightly different point, does my hands of the issue. He may not like the answer that I am hon. Friend agree that contrary to some of the evidence going to give to him, but it will not be an abrogation of that we have heard in the debate, the polls taken of both responsibility; it will be a proper, clear, consistent doctors and the general public in the UK indicate that explanation of by whom, where and how decisions on opinion is becoming far more conservative with regard the matter should be taken. to abortion, particularly at the upper limits? When the House debates and makes judgments on Mr. Robertson: There is a case for reviewing the abortion, we do so on a free vote. It is well understood upper limits of abortion. I voted to reduce the limits. that that is the traditional position in Parliament. The My hon. Friend prompts me to express my personal Government are also clear that the best place for discussion views. I agree with the sentiments expressed by members of and decisions on abortion law in Northern Ireland is of the Democratic Unionist and the Social and Democratic the Northern Ireland Assembly, when criminal justice Labour parties in the debate. Seventeen years ago, I powers are restored. The hon. Member for Tewkesbury worked in connection with a special care baby unit. (Mr. Robertson) is right: confidence is growing that Even at that time, babies were surviving after 24 weeks devolution of criminal justice powers can take place, gestation. They are now aborted and actually survive and I hope it happens in the near future. Many of the outside the womb, only to die in the most cruel discussions are now on the practicalities of implementing circumstances. I simply cannot accept that that is right. that. I am quite assured that there is now abortion on Although the question of devolution of criminal demand—quite illegally—in Great Britain. I take the justice and policing powers is particularly resonant at view put forward by the hon. Member for Upper Bann the moment, the argument that I have advanced is not (David Simpson), who said that if anything, we should an expedient. The Government have a long-standing be tightening the abortion law across Great Britain and position on the matter. moving away from the current situation. Last year alone, there were 216,000 abortions in Great Britain. I Mrs. Lait: Can the Minister explain why abortion is a simply cannot accept that many abortions are not carried criminal justice matter in Northern Ireland and a health out for social reasons. We all know of social excuses for matter on the mainland? abortions and we all know that we are not simply talking about teenage children who cannot cope. Paul Goggins: I will go on to explain the reasons for that. Nadine Dorries: Is my hon. Friend aware that, contrary The Government have a well established policy going to some of the evidence that we have heard that abortion back to 1920. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, is treated as a one-off sensitive issue, some women in West is right that the Offences Against the Person this country, because abortion is available almost on Act 1861 is the foundation of abortion law in Northern demand, are aborting up to four or five times in a short Ireland, but the Government of Ireland Act 1920 gave space of time? responsibility for the criminal law to the Northern Ireland Parliament. Within that responsibility for the Ann Winterton (in the Chair): Order. Before the criminal law was responsibility for abortion law. That Conservative Front-Bench spokesman resumes his speech, remained the case from 1922 right through to 1972, may I point out that the Minister still has to reply? when direct rule was imposed in Northern Ireland. The Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 made Mr. Robertson: I always look forward to hearing the some changes, but the Abortion Act 1967, which went Minister, so I will bring my speech to an end. The hon. through this Parliament, was not extended to Northern Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) makes Ireland. Therefore, we have a consistent position going another powerful point. right back to the 1920 Act. Conservative Front Benchers believe that the matter Some, including my hon. Friend and others who have should be left to the Assembly. My personal view is that spoken in the debate, argue that over the 37 years of we should be tightening up the abortion law in Great direct rule, this Parliament should have legislated to Britain and not going the other way. extend the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland. That we have not done so reflects the very strong views that have been 10.51 am expressed consistently down the years by political and The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul church leaders in Northern Ireland. Goggins): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and for Reading, West (Martin Salter) on securing this Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) drew attention to the debate. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issue and amendments that she proposed to the Human Fertilisation of where the decisions should be taken, he has every and Embryology Act 2008. Hon. Members on both right to raise the issue, and the airing of views that we sides of the House will have received letters from church 95WH Abortion Law (Northern Ireland)15 JULY 2009 Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) 96WH

[Paul Goggins] Mo Mowlam, whom we still think of fondly and who was a committed pro-choice advocate, made it very leaders and from the four main party leaders in Northern clear that the matter was different in relation to the Ireland expressing very strong views that the matter settlement in Northern Ireland. In the debate at the should be left to the people of Northern Ireland. They time, she said: said that any attempt to legislate here would undermine “Due to the universal view that the Act should not apply in the devolution settlement that we have all worked so Northern Ireland…we would need careful consultation with the hard to achieve. parties.”—[Official Report, 20 July 1998; Vol. 316, c. 815.] Even Mo understood that the issue had to be dealt with Emily Thornberry: Does the Minister remember that in accordance with the wishes, will and views of the all the gay rights that were recognised within the law in people of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland were imposed in the teeth of opposition from local politicians? Emily Thornberry: Will the Minister give way?

Paul Goggins: That is a different situation for a Paul Goggins: I cannot, because my hon. Friend the number of reasons. My hon. Friend the Member for Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington Hackney, North and Stoke Newington raised the issue raised the issue of the pragmatic compromise, with of the unborn child, but it is also true—I was involved which I must deal in the short time that I have left. The in some of the consultations to which my hon. Friend pragmatic compromise would be that we would not the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury refers—that change the law, but that we would somehow facilitate there was a much wider mix of opinion on other matters NHS treatment for legal abortions for women in Northern on which this Parliament has legislated through Orders Ireland in England. However, first, it is not clear to me in Council in recent times. A much wider range of that GPs in Northern Ireland would have the power to opinion came through in the consultations on those refer a woman for treatment outside Northern Ireland other measures, but on this matter, it is clear that there that would be illegal in Northern Ireland. Some might is not such a breadth of opinion. I have very little time argue that women should be able to leave Northern left, so if my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will move on. Ireland for assessment as well as treatment here, but I would argue that that would be a serious breach of the The party leaders made it clear that the proposed relationship between the woman and her GP. amendments to the 2008 Act, which were not made, Secondly—this is crucial, and we have only seconds would undermine the integrity of the devolution process. to go in the debate—we would either have to top-slice As I have said, we have not suddenly lighted upon that the Northern Ireland health budget to fund the compromise, position recently. Back in 1990, Baroness Bottomley of which would undermine the devolution settlement, or Nettlestone urged the House of Commons to reject a taxpayers in England, Wales and Scotland would have move to extend the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland, to pay. That would take money away from my constituents saying that it would be and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, “offensive to the overwhelming majority of people in the Province”— West. Such a compromise would not work in practice. [Official Report, 21 June 1990; Vol. 193, c. 1162.] In the end, this important matter should be determined My hon. Friend referred to the Good Friday agreement, by the Northern Ireland Assembly and the people of which was legislated for in the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Northern Ireland. 97WH 15 JULY 2009 Mr. Michael Shields 98WH

Mr. Michael Shields and that he was an honest and independent witness who had befriended the victim, Martin Georgiev, only hours before the attack. Significantly, the police investigation 11 am found that had the incident taken place in the United Kingdom, Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): “the case would now be referred back to the Court of Appeal” I am grateful to have the opportunity to call once again or the Criminal Cases Review Commission, and that for justice for Michael Shields. I thank my right hon. Michael Friend the Secretary of State for Justice for taking the highly unusual step of coming here in person to answer “could be out on licence pending the outcome of that process.” this debate. This is my third Adjournment debate in That is strong language. It has only one implication: it support of Michael, who is currently serving a 10-year points to Michael’s innocence. prison sentence in the UK for the attempted murder of The conviction is unsafe. The evidence is consistent Martin Georgiev in Varna, Bulgaria in May 2005. Michael with the witness statement given by Councillor Joe has always protested his innocence. Anderson, leader of the Labour group on Liverpool I have long been convinced that Michael’s case is a city council, in October 2007. Reporting what he had gross miscarriage of justice both for Michael—a then been told by two other eyewitnesses to the crime, Bradley 18-year-old man jailed for a crime that he did not Thompson and Anthony Wilson, Councillor Anderson commit—and for the victim, as the real offender remains recounts how he was informed that a man called Steven free. My previous reasons for supporting Michael include Clare had initially punched Mr. Georgiev, and that substantial flaws in the identification of him as the “Shortly afterwards Graham Sankey dropped a large rock on his culprit, the absence of any forensic evidence and head as he lay prone on the ground… Both men made it clear that the confession of another man, Graham Sankey, to the Michael Shields was not present at the scene”. crime. Those reasons have been strengthened by new The Justice Secretary’s provisional decision rests heavily eyewitness evidence and a polygraph test, conducted on the findings of the Bulgarian court, which relied with the express approval of the Secretary of State, exclusively on identification evidence that would not showing unequivocally that Michael was not at the have been admitted in courts in this country. He fails to scene of the crime. mention the admission by Tsoni Tsonev, member of the Bulgarian Supreme Judicial Council, that there were We are at a critical stage in the campaign for justice. doubts about Michael Shields’ conviction, in reply to Despite new evidence, the Bulgarian authorities have the petition placed before the European Parliament by refused to re-open the case. In December 2008, the UK Arlene McCarthy, MEP on 27 May 2008. Neither has High Court ruled that the Justice Secretary had the my right hon. Friend referred to the concern expressed power to pardon Michael after considering the new about the Bulgarian legal system in the European evidence in the context of the evidence before the Bulgarian Commission’s 2005 progress report. court. My right hon. Friend has decided provisionally that he is minded to refuse a pardon, but has stated that I ask my right hon. Friend to revisit the report of the he will consider further representations before making a Merseyside police, who have no vested interest in Michael final decision. That provisional decision relies on extremely Shields but are simply reporting what they found after a dubious identification evidence consisting largely of thorough investigation ordered by my right hon. Friend. dock identification—a practice not allowed in this country It is important to record that Graham Sankey, despite for many decades. Identification parades were conducted the confession that he made through his solicitor on in Bulgaria without defence lawyers present, using non- 29 July 2005, has consistently refused to be questioned. suspects who did not resemble Michael Shields and Neither has he challenged the continued references to after Michael’s picture had appeared in Bulgarian his guilt. Press reports that he no longer stands by his newspapers. confession have never been backed up by any retraction statement. In addition to Graham Sankey’s confession, there is considerable new evidence that positively supports Michael, I have been informed that Michael’s legal team has including the lie detector test, new eyewitness statements been in touch with the CCRC since the provisional and testimony from a Bulgarian porter in the hotel decision and that the CCRC has confirmed that it where Michael stayed. I draw special attention to the would be happy to consider a reference by the Secretary thorough investigation into a new sworn eyewitness of State to consider the case under section 16 of the statement from Mr. A, carried out by experienced officers Criminal Appeal Act 1995. Will my right hon. Friend from the Merseyside police major incident team at the refer the case to the CCRC under that power? request of the Secretary of State. The investigation Last Sunday, I visited Michael in prison. Later, I shows categorically that Michael was not present at the joined hundreds of Michael’s supporters in attending a scene of the crime. During the police review, Graham vigil at Liverpool’s Anglican cathedral. I praise the Sankey refused to be interviewed by the investigating outstanding work in support of Michael done by the team. Bishop of Liverpool, who is convinced of Michael’s innocence. Those events reinforced my determination Eyewitness Mr. A recalls in his sworn statement: to speak out in pursuit of justice. Michael simply wants “It was only when I saw the photograph of Michael Shields the facts of that fateful night to be known. He cannot that I realised the police had arrested the wrong man. I was able understand why the new witness statements and the to see Michael was a big lad and had blond hair. The lad in the police report have not cleared him. white T-shirt who dropped the brick was short and dark.” The people of Liverpool and the north-west are The police investigation concluded that Mr. A was perplexed and angered at the provisional decision, which “truthful in providing this account” flies in the face of the findings of the Merseyside police. 99WH Mr. Michael Shields15 JULY 2009 Mr. Michael Shields 100WH

[Mrs. Louise Ellman] decision that is mine alone to make, I thought it would be inappropriate to ask one of my ministerial colleagues Feelings are running high. I accept that judgment cannot to handle the matter. I thought that I should give my be based on emotion but must be founded on facts, but hon. Friend, Mr. Shields and his family the respect of the facts of the new evidence point to a grave miscarriage explaining the position myself. of justice. If Michael was not present at the scene of the This matter is not technically sub judice, because it is crime, he is innocent. not currently before a court here or abroad. None the I ask my right hon. Friend for an assurance that his less, my role in deciding Mr. Shields’ application for a mind is not closed. The application for a pardon requires free pardon is a quasi-judicial one. It follows that it him to consider whether there has been a miscarriage of would not be appropriate for me to respond to the justice. How he goes about considering that is a matter detailed points of evidence given by my hon. Friend or of his policy rather than of any legal test. I urge him to others. Nevertheless, I give her the absolute assurance, consider the damage caused to the rule of law by an which she sought at the end of her remarks, that I will innocent young man’s remaining in prison, while another carefully consider and reconsider the detailed man who has confessed to the crime and against whom representations that have been made and that will be there is powerful supporting evidence remains unchallenged. made before reaching a final decision. Outrage over the case risks diminishing public confidence My hon. Friend’s second question was whether I in our judicial system, which none of us would want. would refer the matter to the Criminal Cases Review Will my right hon. Friend carefully reconsider the detailed Commission under section 16 of the 1995 Act if I representations made to him and the evidence that he decided that I could not change my provisional decision. considered, put right this shocking miscarriage of justice I have considered whether doing so would be appropriate and grant a pardon to Michael Shields? If my right hon. on two occasions and will consider further representations Friend feels unable to do that, will he refer the case to on that matter. the CCRC, which is willing to consider it? The facts of the case are well known, and I shall not This is a highly unusual case. Michael Shields must repeat them. I offered in a letter to meet Mr. and not be caught between two jurisdictions. The Bulgarian Mrs. Shields, and I gather that arrangements are in court found him guilty, despite grave misgivings about hand. I last met Mr. Shields on an impromptu basis the evidence that it considered. There are concerns over when the Cabinet went to Liverpool in early January the complexity and doubtfulness of the identification this year. evidence and, in particular, the dock identification, which has not been permissible in this country for I will set out how my Department has handled the decades. After Michael Shields was convicted, Graham matter, what action we have taken, how I reached my Sankey confessed to the crime. I have detailed the provisional decision and what the next steps will be. I critical parts of the new evidence that has emerged since am happy to accept interventions from hon. Members then. I have commented on the findings of the Merseyside at any point. Mr. Shields has sought a free pardon police, who carried out a thorough investigation, using under the royal prerogative of mercy. That is an ancient the services of highly experienced officers. and seldom-used power that can be exercised by the Secretary of State on behalf of Her Majesty. It has not Again, I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of been used since 1996, when it was used in very different State for being present. I take his presence as an indication circumstances. An individual had pleaded guilty to of the seriousness with which he views this issue. I ask drink-driving, but it transpired that the breathalyser him to consider all the points that I have made and the was inaccurate. There was no way other than by royal representations of Michael’s legal team, which will be pardon to declare him not guilty. submitted shortly. I ask him to give his full consideration to releasing Michael Shields and securing justice. Since 1997, the Criminal Cases Review Commission, to which my hon. Friend referred, has been responsible for reviewing alleged miscarriages of justice in England, 11.11 am Wales and Northern Ireland, when the convicted person The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor has exhausted the appeal process. The Scottish Criminal (Mr. Jack Straw): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Cases Review Commission performs the same function Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) on north of the border. The existence of the CCRC makes securing this debate. I am well aware that she and other it unlikely that a free pardon will again be granted in colleagues from Merseyside are concerned about the relation to a conviction secured in the UK, although continued detention of Michael Shields and the unreliability that cannot be ruled out. of the conviction in the Bulgarian court. She has led the My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, campaign for his release tirelessly. This is the third North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) in particular debate on the case that she has secured. The other two will remember that we actively supported the previous debates were held in November 2005 and November Government’s proposals to set up the CCRC when they 2007. came before the House. There was a general view, which I have spent more time on this case over many years I subscribe to, that in principle the tricky, technical job than on any other single case. I first became involved in of reviewing evidence in cases in which a convicted September 2005 as Foreign Secretary, when I met person claims that he or she has been the victim of a Mr. Shields’ family for the first time. My hon. Friend miscarriage of justice are better dealt with by an mentioned that Adjournment debates are usually handled independent body than by Ministers. Nevertheless, the not by Secretaries of State, but by Ministers. I have law is that this Minister has to deal with this case, and I discussed the matter with her and am grateful for her have done my best to approach the matter in the correct remarks. Given that the case involves a quasi-judicial way. 101WH Mr. Michael Shields15 JULY 2009 Mr. Michael Shields 102WH

My hon. Friends are aware that the advice that I was request. The very detailed letter—I think that there are given last year, which I accepted, was that I had no 45 pages—that was sent by senior officials on my behalf power to consider a free pardon under prerogative to Mr. Shields and his legal advisers goes into detail to powers for convictions secured abroad and when, as in explain what provisional conclusions I came to after this case, the applicant is serving the remainder of his looking at the police report, among many other pieces sentence in the UK under a prisoner transfer agreement. of evidence. That advice turned on a debate about the interaction of On the other two matters, I have said that I have articles 12 and 13 of the European convention on the already considered referring the case to the CCRC and transfer of prisoners. On 17 December last year, two that, so far, I have decided it would not be appropriate. senior judges of the High Court, in a decision of the My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside administrative court, said that I was wrong about that asked me whether I am open-minded: yes, I am open- and that I do have the power to consider a pardon for minded on this matter. These are very difficult decisions Mr. Shields. The Court set out its view on how such a indeed to take, and I must do so fairly and judicially. I consideration should be undertaken. Both Mr. Shields’ am open on that, and on the last point that she raises, I legal team and I accepted the terms of the High Court am also open to representations about the proposal judgment and did not seek to appeal. from the Merseyside constabulary. I have already looked The High Court decision was concerned with what at those reports, but I am open to further representations. the Court described as “a pure question of law” Mrs. Ellman: Does my right hon. Friend consider in regard to my powers under the royal prerogative of that, after reading all the evidence involved, there is a mercy. The Court did not venture a view as to whether doubt about Michael Shields’ conviction? Mr Shields’ application should succeed. It did not look at the merits of the evidence, because that is a matter Mr. Straw: May I come on to that, because I want to for me. explain the test that was set for me and why I think it appropriate for me to follow that? I also want to explain Immediately following the High Court judgment, I why I am ready to receive further representations. For appointed senior counsel, David Perry QC, to advise me the avoidance of doubt, I wish to state that, once the on Mr Shields’ application. Mr. Perry is one of the most High Court had handed down its decision in December, senior criminal barristers in the country. I also asked the Bulgarian authorities played no part whatsoever in Mr Shields’ legal team to submit any further evidence my consideration of Mr. Shields’ application. I add—again, that they wished me to consider. In February, on Mr. Perry’s for the avoidance of doubt—that any possible implications advice, I asked Merseyside police to undertake consideration for the operation of the prisoner transfer agreement of certain matters in relation to Mr Shields’ application. have also not played any part in my consideration of the Following consideration of those matters, the police matter. submitted two reports to me—one in March and the other in May. I have sought to follow the judgments of the High Court, which, as I have said, came from two very senior Subsequently, I received advice from Mr. Perry on all judges. Paragraph 34 of their judgment states: the available evidence and on how I should consider the matter. However, I must make it clear that any decision “In principle…the grant of a free pardon would appear to require a conclusion that, taking the Bulgarian courts’ judgment in regard to a free pardon is mine alone. It was not for what it is and without calling in question its correctness on the possible for me to delegate the provisional decision, nor material which those courts considered, fresh evidence which the can I delegate the final decision. Bulgarian courts did not consider, taken with the material which they did consider and their judgment upon it justifies a conclusion Jane Kennedy (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): I strongly that Michael Shields is morally and technically innocent”. support the comments of my hon. Friend the Member That is the test that I was in principle required to follow for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman). My right hon. by the two senior judges of the High Court. Questions Friend said that he will not comment on the detail of have subsequently been raised, including by those the matter, but when I read the police report that he campaigning for Mr. Shields’ release, about whether commissioned and invited to be undertaken, I was that is an appropriate test. struck by the strength of opinion. There are not many It is worth putting on the record that, in the lead police officers—I have worked with many—who have judgment of Sir Anthony May, president of the Queen’s taken such a genuinely supportive view of such a case. bench division, the court records at paragraph 25 that One of the recommendations made in the police the test of moral and technical innocence was one urged report is that the case should be referred for review. on the court by Mr. Weatherby—a barrister for Mr. Shields. However, the police also suggest that my right hon. I am not saying that such a conclusion might not have Friend might consider releasing Michael Shields on been reached in any event, but it is absolutely clear from licence, while he continues to consider the greater paragraph 25 that it was a proposal from Mr. Shields’ ramifications of the case. For me, that was a very telling lawyers that assisted the court in coming to its conclusion recommendation indeed, which is outside the more that the appropriate test was one of moral and technical detailed consideration that he must rightly give to whether innocence. a pardon should be issued. When considering the case, Paragraph 25 includes a précis of the submissions it would be of very great significance if he could find it from Mr. Shields and states: in his heart to allow such clemency. “Mr. Weatherby submits that the Prerogative Power of Mercy is a flexible one…The Secretary of State has jurisdiction to Mr. Straw: Of course, I considered the police report consider whether the claimant it morally and technically innocent…It very carefully indeed. Detailed comment has been made would, said Mr. Weatherby, by quite unconscionable for the about the interviews that the police conducted at my Secretary of State to allow a prisoner known to be innocent to 103WH Mr. Michael Shields15 JULY 2009 Mr. Michael Shields 104WH

[Mr. Straw] provisional conclusion that I have come to is the one to which the evidence has drawn me, but I have an open remain in prison…The question for the Secretary of State it mind. I have explained the background to the court’s whether on all the available material there has been an injustice adoption of the test, which was done, not least, at the such that Mr. Shields is morally and technically innocent.” urging of Mr. Shields’ own lawyers. Of course, even at As I say, that was urged on the court by Mr. Shields’ this late stage, if Mr. Shields’ lawyers urge a different lawyers and was accepted by them. I have to follow a test upon me, I am ready to consider that as well. test, and that is the one I have been following. Mrs. Ellman: If the test had stated explicitly “reasonable Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, doubt”, would my right hon. Friend have come to a East) (Lab): I should like to put on the record that I different conclusion at this stage? agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) in the conclusions Mr. Straw: The reason why it is not possible for me to that she has reached about her constituent. I do not answer that question directly is that the test did not question the fact that my right hon. Friend will have state that explicitly. Moreover, in all appeals against gone through the procedure put before him meticulously. conviction, it is normal for the burden of proof and Having worked with him in the past, I know that that is sometimes the standard of proof to shift. I was not how he approaches things. Does he accept that in asked about that, and it would require a complete relation to some of the issues that my hon. Friend has rehearing of the original evidence to come to a judgment raised, even within the terms of the judgment handed to about the guilt of those who are arraigned before the him, which sets the framework for his consideration of Bulgarian court. the matter, he could have reached a different conclusion? What I was asked to do is to come to a judgment on whether Mr. Shields was “morally and technically innocent”, Mr. Straw: My right hon. Friend is inviting me to and that has been broadly the standard basis on which come to a premature conclusion about my final decision, judgments of this kind—rare though they are—are which, for reasons that I am sure he fully understands, I taken. I draw the attention of my right hon. and hon. cannot do. I have to wait and see what further evidence Friends to the fact that I have taken the Bulgarian is submitted as to whether I agree with him and his right court’s judgment for what it is and have not called into hon. and hon. Friends. However, I should like to say question its correctness in relation to the material that that I have an open mind on the matter. that court considered. I am perfectly aware of the great anger that there is I understand that there is concern about the test, but on Merseyside about the provisional decision that I that was what the court said and, as I mentioned, it did have made and that there is a great campaign on Michael so explicitly at the urging of Mr. Shields’ lawyers. Before Shields’ behalf. My right hon. Friend will know, not I finish, I repeat that I am very grateful to my hon. least from having worked with me—I thank him for his Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside and her comments about that—that I do my best in these cases right hon. and hon. Friends. to apply myself to the evidence. Simply as a human being, it would have been easier all round for me if I had 11.30 am been able to come to the alternative conclusion. The Sitting suspended. 105WH 15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 106WH

Local and Regional Newspapers letters page, to which I have no doubt we have all been subjected in the past. A local press covering issues within the locality that the nationals would not touch is 2.30 pm an essential part of our democratic process. I am flattered that so many hon. Members have come Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to to this debate. They represent diverse parts of the serve under your chairmanship, Lady Winterton. I am country. As someone who represents a scattered rural grateful for this opportunity to raise the plight of local constituency with 174 villages, I believe that the community and regional newspapers in a Welsh, if not Ceredigion role of newspapers is critical. Pictures of local people context, but more generally as well. enjoying themselves at the Borth carnival or the winners The starting point for my interest in the matter was a of the Aberystwyth and district agricultural show, reports visit a few months ago to the office of one of our local from the women’s institute, the local sports page, items newspapers, the Cardigan and Tivyside Advertiser, which about Master Evans being picked for the under-11s or is an immensely well-respected local weekly paper. I was Mr. and Mrs. Davies’s golden wedding anniversary surprised to find that the total staff complement for the might be crass parish-pump stuff to some people, but it newspaper was just five people, with only two journalists— is important, cohesive community information. half of what there were two years ago. The paper covers Both our local papers have served the Welsh and the town of Cardigan, the lower Teifi valley and north English-speaking communities with distinction. The Welsh Pembrokeshire—a large geographical area. Sadly, it is medium articles from local volunteer correspondents now characterised by fewer news stories and more are important. They cover significant cultural events: advertising features, or attempts to secure them, and the Urdd, local eisteddfodau and cymanfa ganu—the less real news that matters to people, to help retain sales. singing festivals—and Dydd Dewi Sant, or Saint David’s The paper faces a downward spiral: sales are hard to day. It is important that pre-eminence is given to the win back, and jobs are subsequently put at risk. To use Welsh language in Ceredigion. But there are also the big a butchery analogy of trimming the meat, I am afraid campaigning issues. that it has been a case not only of trimming the fat; the The Tivyside promoted the restoration of Cardigan reality is that the muscle of the newspaper industry is castle, which was the scene of Wales’s first eisteddfod, being trimmed fatally. and the campaign for a new hospital. Cambrian News There is a similar story on a bigger scale with Ceredigion’s campaigned against compulsory purchase orders in other weekly newspaper, the Cambrian News, which has Aberystwyth town centre, for retaining key services and a readership of 68,000 people and covers a vast area. meals on wheels and against industrial scallop dredging There are two editions, although that represents a reduction, in our precious Cardigan bay. Local newspapers galvanise covering Ceredigion, Machynlleth and Llanidloes in the opinion, sometimes working more effectively as campaigners constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for than we do. Sometimes they work in concert with Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), Merioneth, and the politicians, sometimes against, but they promote community Dwyfor towns of Porthmadog, Pwllheli, and Criccieth interest, action and engagement. They are still a cherished in the constituency of the hon. Member for Caernarfon local resource and are successful because they are local (Hywel Williams). Next year, that paper will celebrate to people. its 150th birthday, but it, too, faces the challenge of reduced advertising and the loss of editions, jobs and its Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): My hon. Friend capacity to hold local politicians and public agencies to makes a prescient observation on campaigning. Is he account. That picture is replicated across the aware of the fact that, as a direct result of the work of United Kingdom. the County Times, which is surely one of the finest I fear that a diminished local press diminishes the newspapers in the western world, I submitted a petition principles of community and democracy. My local regarding concerns about wind farm transportation journalists tell me that it is simply impossible for them through my constituency, and that the County Times, to attend, in the way that they used to, sufficient meetings working with politicians in the Welshpool area, was of community and town councils, the county council directly responsible for raising the issue, exactly as my cabinet or its planning and scrutiny committees, the hon. Friend rightly says? community health councils, the local health board or the police authority. Disseminating the work of those Mark Williams: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bodies has been an essential role of the local press. that observation. I emphasise the case that politicians Furthermore, more controversially perhaps, the local work in concert with their local newspapers, and I note press is unable to launch detailed investigations. Stories that County Times journalists have been spotted in are left untouched, and potential stories are not revealed. these parts today. No doubt, they are lurking somewhere In the spirit of this debate, I shall stick to local matters in the Gallery. such as the proposed industrial development north of Local news for local communities is important, but the town of Cardigan, ParcAberporth, which swallowed the newspapers are struggling because of the range of vast sums of public money but has yet to produce a news media that is available to people. That was brought fraction of the jobs that were promised. Under normal to our attention in the Scottish context by the Scottish circumstances, that issue would have been pursued by Affairs Committee’s recent report, and also in Wales by the press, but the press is without the resources to delve, the Welsh Assembly’s broadcasting sub-committee, which to question elected Members and to challenge our role discussed the challenges resulting from the increasingly here. Stories are missed and local issues are not raised diverse ways in which members of the public can access or aired. That is mitigated only in part by a vociferous news and current affairs. 107WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 108WH

[Mark Williams] and Echo and the Coalville Echo, which, sadly, ceases publication next week. Can we not develop the point I should like to discuss some of the problems: first, raised by the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink)? the undeniable decline in advertising revenue and the Should we not expect local authorities, public agencies effects of the recession, although there were the seeds of and the Government to do far more information take-up decline even before the latest recession. Between 2007 advertising in local media that are under threat? Is not and 2008, advertising in newspapers fell by 12 per cent., the message that must come from today’s debate, “Let’s according to the Advertising Association. Advertising do it now, before they disappear.”? across the board dropped by 3.9 per cent., yet advertising on the internet increased by 17 per cent. Recently, Mark Williams: I concur. I will return to that point Gannett, the US-based parent company of Newsquest, later. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that this is revealed a 45 per cent. fall in advertising year on year, urgent, because, as he said, local titles are going to the between January and March 2009, with the resultant wall now. loss of 11 local newspapers in north-west England. I The lack of Welsh stories in the national news media shall not stray further into England, but these messages is serious for those hon. Members who represent Welsh need to be heeded across the UK. constituencies and explains why we attach great importance Regional publications have been restructured in the to the nearest things that we have to a national light of the recession. In January, Trinity Mirror merged newspaper—The Western Mail in the south of Wales Media Wales with its north-west and north Wales divisions. and the Daily Post in the north. Seventy-eight jobs were lost, including 10 in Wales—again, I now come to the point raised by the hon. Members there is a loss of local titles and local offices. The for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) and for growing characteristic of such restructuring is centralisation, Castle Point (Bob Spink) on the emergence of local with more journalists working from one location. The council publications, as distinct from advertisements in journalists for the Western Mail, the South Wales Echo local newspapers. Although those papers contain local and Wales on Sunday are now based in one centralised news, they are by their nature not independent and are newsroom in Cardiff. Twenty years ago, the tentacles of competing with the commercial press, arguably speeding the Western Mail reached out with correspondents right the decline of the local press and thereby reducing across the length and breadth of Wales. We had a scrutiny of local authorities. correspondent in my town of Aberystwyth, but that time is long since gone. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Is my hon. Friend aware The news groups will rightly assert that, beyond the that Birmingham city council is not only issuing its own sentimentality of local titles, they are businesses and newspaper, but that that paper is carrying advertising, must fit in with models of profitability, but there is an therefore robbing local newspapers, such as The Birmingham added, crucial imperative in Wales: a different political Post, the Birmingham Evening Mail and the Express & culture post-devolution of which the electorate needs to Star, of important advertising revenue? be informed. Regional newspapers therefore are a tool for political and constitutional engagement. And yet Mark Williams: I shall append to what my hon. one has to look very hard to find news of Welsh politics. Friend said the phrase, “thereby threatening and jeopardising the future of those newspapers.” The Local Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Has the hon. Gentleman Government Association has asserted that no threat is considered using his communication allowance—since posed and that three fifths of all council magazines he is talking about political engagement—in a proper, contain no advertising at all or less than 10 per cent. appropriate way to help his local newspapers and his constituents? For instance, he could take a full-page ad Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman to promote take-up for Warm Front before winter comes is proposing to distort market forces to provide a direct around or he could promote the take-up of the pensioners’ or indirect subsidy to local papers. Local papers are not credit, because two in five of our pensioners do not take known for their independent political view; many of it and lose £1,470 as a result. So he could use his them are outrageously biased politically. Is it sensible to communication allowance positively to help his community, ask for public funds before we can impose on local and that would not do his local newspapers any harm, papers the same duty of political balance that we insist either. on from the broadcasting media?

Mark Williams: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Mark Williams: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those suggestions, some of which I shall take back for that observation. I will take a generalist view in the to Wales with me and some I am using already. For debate, but I will assert that we stand to lose rather example, adverts for my surgeries appear regularly in more from the decimation of the local newspaper industry the local papers. Those surgeries are costly, but an as we know it. important principle is involved none the less. I will mention that in connection with local authorities and Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) other public agencies in a little while. (Con): I have some sympathy with the point made by the hon. Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn). I David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): have been in touch with a number of my local newspapers, The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Trinity Mirror many of which cover not just Westminster but other group, which has taken a hard-nosed attitude towards central London boroughs, and the message that has local newspapers and is about to close nine papers in come through loud and clear is that they worry intensely the midlands, including the Burton Trader, the Ashby Trader about council-run newspapers effectively stepping in 109WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 110WH their way. I can see that that is quite an issue. But is not read fewer local newspapers and one in seven listens to the independence that the hon. Member for Ceredigion less radio. For me, in the spirit of plurality, it is about (Mark Williams) mentioned largely illusory in many choice overall and about choice of media. Many lack parts of the country, not least because local newspapers that choice, as local newspapers are diminishing. rely on local authority advertising, particularly recruitment advertising? Is not that one reason why there is less Mr. Mark Field: I thank the hon. Gentleman for independence than in the broadcasting world? giving way again; he is generous. He has talked about new digital media. Let us be honest and say that we—all Mark Williams: That point was mentioned in the hon. Members in this Chamber—are unusual, being report by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, relatively middle-aged and big consumers of newspapers. which hon. Members will have read. The generation younger than us will barely look at a Local councils should be encouraged to take out newspaper at all, and they regard digital media as the longer advertising contracts, to run the campaigns that focus of attention for particular local stories. Although were mentioned earlier and to sponsor local party initiatives. in central London we have some good online offerings There are precedents for that in Wales, with county from local newspapers, the big elephant in the room is councils sponsoring the Papur Bro—the network of that they face competition from the BBC, which benefits Welsh language community newspapers across much of from a £3.6 billion annual subsidy, building up an Wales. I encourage hon. Members to look at the Scottish impressive, active and interactive media operation. But Affairs Committee report and the one from Wales, that is the real problem. The next generation, who will which urges the Assembly to review its job-advertising not necessarily consume their newspapers in anything strategy. other than a digital form, is now finding that there is no I take hon. Members’ points about the independence point going online to see what the local newspaper has of newspapers, but I also take seriously the threat to to say and will find quite effective local news through their existence, because their absence would ultimately the BBC online offering, which has the benefit of significant threaten and have a detrimental effect on our democracy. public endorsement and funding.

Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Mark Williams: On the one hand, I share the hon. Bush) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman has struck a raw Gentleman’s optimism about the new technologies, but nerve on the point about local authorities. Whatever the on the other I am concerned, because we must seek a threat from withholding advertising, the threat from balance between those two things. I am reticent to say setting up a rival publication is real in many areas. Has that the younger generation is not interested in local the hon. Gentleman seen the LGA brief—a self-serving, papers, and that is not my experience in my constituency. disingenuous document—which said that there was no We must combine new and traditional technologies, threat whatsoever from local government newspapers, and I shall come to that later. whereas we know that they are parasites and stiflers of Technological changes have threatened how news is local newspapers? consumed, and the internet is heralded as the natural successor to the printed word with the benefits of Mark Williams: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman immediacy and interaction. All news groups have recognised for that. I had a similar reaction to the hon. Gentleman’s that, and have reflected it in developing online newspapers. on reading the LGA brief, although I will not use the Trinity Mirror reckons that it still receives 90 per cent. poetic language that he uses. None the less, he makes a of its income from the printed word, but 10 per cent. strong point about the threat to our local papers. comes from digital. The balance is shifting, and that I want to celebrate the local press. It can be immensely presents challenges to news groups, but advertising irritating to us, but it undertakes a critical public service. revenue on the internet is limited. When we talk about the press, as the National Union of A critical theme for the industry is the rules on Journalists reminds us, we are talking about individuals cross-media ownership. The NUJ’s evidence to the Welsh with mortgages, anxieties about jobs and many of the Assembly broadcasting sub-committee highlighted the stresses that have been experienced by some of us, as dangers of an homogenised news service, but moved in hon. Members, in recent weeks. We need to talk about the direction of relaxing competition laws to alleviate support for the journalistic community and upskilling concern about disappearing and vulnerable titles. The journalistic skills, as our committee in the National recommendations following its investigations have been Assembly recommended. slightly usurped by recent announcements, but it urged I do not want to be dismissed as some kind of that cross-media rules be relaxed to allow exploration luddite. We need to address the perception of daily of new partnerships and that there should be accompanying newspapers publishing yesterday’s news tomorrow. That measures to protect the plurality of local media. In a is the challenge. I will continue to campaign for the Welsh context, the Assembly said that we should consider nearest that we can get to universal broadband across means of supporting English language journalism, including my area. That is not an easy task in rural Wales. I am a the upskilling of journalists to meet the challenges of great enthusiast for the universal service obligation, online technology. with all that it entails, and much of what the “Digital I hope that the Welsh Assembly Government and Britain” report contains. According to Ofcom, 90 per local authorities throughout Britain will be minded to cent. of people in our communities consume some form take a more strategic view of advertising to ensure that of local media; yet since the 1970s, newspaper circulations relevant titles are not overlooked. Implicit in that is the have been declining by 2 per cent. per year, and recently, suggestion that an advertising strategy from local authorities, local television and radio audiences have been declining the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament, the UK as well. Among recent broadband adopters, 10 per cent. Government and so on must be communicated to the 111WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 112WH

[Mark Williams] are heavily biased, and rarely towards the left, the radical or the progressive side of politics. papers. In a spirit of Celtic solidarity, I commend the We must consider seriously the other influences on conclusions of the Scottish Affairs Committee whose advertising. Another newspaper said openly that it would report said that not write fair reports on the Welsh Assembly, but attack “under pressure from the current economic climate, diminishing it because it did not provide enough advertising when it advertising, and the explosion of alternative news and information advertised jobs. That is an example of the newspapers’ sources in electronic format, the industry has been forced to editorial line depending on advertising. We are in dangerous dramatically restructure itself, often at great cost to its dedicated waters if we are talking about intervention. There is and knowledgeable staff.” even a vested interest in respect of MPs. Some of us use I could so easily have inserted “Wales”instead of “Scotland” local papers and our communication allowances. Does in that text. that mean that newspapers are more disposed to us? If It is vital that the Welsh Assembly and UK Governments they were, that would be wrong. They should take the ensure that the Welsh newspaper industry is not made same unbiased line that they take on other issues. We unviable because of overbearing competition from public are all aware of a softening of criticism. How newspapers sector advertising and that the industry can create treated the recent reports of our immaculate expenses sustainable business models through consolidation and might have been influenced by the fact that MP A mergers, subject to appropriate safeguards, while advertises in the paper, and MP B does not. maintaining high quality, varied and independent journalism Many hon. Members want to speak, so I shall be that reflects the Welsh identity. One could easily have brief. My main point is that I support the argument that inserted “Wales” for “Scotland” in that conclusion of local papers are valuable. They are immensely important the Scottish Affairs Committee report, and indeed I in communications and in keeping communities together. have done just that. It fits the bill perfectly. In Welsh-speaking areas they are vital. However, we all More recently, however, we have had the results of know that the news that is trusted comes via broadcasters, the Office of Fair Trading’s inquiry that accompanied not from local or national papers. the “Digital Britain”report, which recognised the problems facing local and regional newspapers and did not go David Taylor: My hon. Friend is a renowned blogger down the route of legislation to change the rules governing who is widely read by many people in the political media mergers. The Minister is new to his post, but he is sphere. Does he agree that one way in which local mastering his brief. Will he assure me about the extent newspapers have responded to their problems in recent to which that will satisfy the concerns of some of us years has accelerated the difficulties? They have failed who believe that necessary mergers between different to invest, to train their staff, and to pay and recruit media organisations is one way of alleviating the great decent staff, with the result that the problem that they concern in our communities about the fate of local responded to has worsened. The Mayor of London newspapers? receives the chicken feed, as he described it, of £250,000 for 50 articles a year. Should we not balance the payments 2.54 pm a little? Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) on securing Paul Flynn: Indeed we should. Local newspapers are this debate, and I agree with the main thrust of his described as local, but many are run by the appropriately argument. I am sure that the world would be a poorer named Gannett Company, to which the hon. Member place without a healthy Tivy-Side Advertiser in Cardigan, for Ceredigion referred. Decisions are made not in and that his constituents would be confused and bereft Ceredigion, Newport or Birmingham, but in America, without the latest bulletin on the state of cockle-dredging for financial reasons. It is not imperative for local and scallop-dredging in Cardigan bay. Such matters are papers to be local any longer. important locally. We are all sad about the disappearance of local I am speaking today to share my long-standing view journalists and the training ground where the seed corn about how to reform society and improve our democracy. of journalism was provided. It would be a great shame In my constituency in 1839, 20 Chartists were shot if local newspapers went under, but we know the realities during their campaign for a charter. A few years ago, I of market forces. How many of us receive our news in drew up a charter for the 21st century. One element was the morning not by holding up pieces of paper, but by to impose on our media a duty of balance in the same going straight to the website and seeing tomorrow’s way as we do on broadcasters. That is crucial because papers the day before? The point is that we cannot have the media generally—not just the local media, but the subsidies for the press without imposing a condition of national media—have an outrageous right-wing bias. If political balance. they ask the country for the same sort of subsidies that the broadcasters receive, particularly the BBC, that Several hon. Members rose— responsibility must go with those subsidies. We can all think of examples from our local and national press of Ann Winterton (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the how they behave. next speaker, it may be helpful if I point out that at least A neighbouring MP complained to the editor of a six hon. Members and probably even more wish to local newspaper that of the 14 press releases that he sent speak, so if hon. Members could make their comments in this year, none was published. That MP is a former in five minutes or even a little less, everyone will be able editor of a newspaper, and does not send in vacuous to speak. We also have to have the winding-up speeches. press releases. Newspapers are often empty of political Obviously we have to leave the Minister time to respond news—they do not consider it worth reporting—or they to the various points. I call Lembit Öpik. 113WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 114WH

3pm about local businesses that just want to make ends meet, with journalists who are not well paid but have a Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I shall be passion for their work and their communities. guided by your request, Lady Winterton. As we heard in the outstanding speech by my hon. Friend the Member My next point concerns the shift of local government for Ceredigion (Mark Williams), the local press is the notices and job adverts towards websites and local key vehicle in reporting accurately and fairly on local government magazines and publications. Only about goings-on—in scrutinising the workings of local councils 1 per cent. of the councils that responded to a recent and local courts. Unlike many national journalists, local survey produced a magazine once a week, so if we want reporters tend to live and work in the communities on to get information out quickly, in about 99 per cent. of which they report, so local people trust them as a source local authority areas the local newspaper is still the best of news. They do not need to tap people’s phones or way to do that. I would be grateful if the Minister let me mobiles to get exclusives, because people trust them and and the House know what action he is taking to investigate talk to them, and people read the results of what they that change. Local newspapers are a vital source of have investigated and what they write about, knowing knowledge for local people in finding out where and that they are reading accurate reports about their own how their council tax is being spent—and they are world. independent. On that basis, there is a strong political and democratic case for supporting local newspapers. The County Times, which is the weekly in my area, is a classic example—a role model for how what I have Of course, many newspapers are published daily. The described can best be achieved. It is 130 years old; it was Shropshire Star, which very sensibly bases an excellent founded in 1879, in the same year as Montgomeryshire journalist called Anwen Evans in my constituency, provides elected its first Liberal MP, Stuart Rendel. Two great a counterpoint to much of the information that is and revolutionary leaps forward occurred in that same blandly and inaccurately described in the national media. year. Again, we see the daily newspaper suffering in just the way that my local weekly newspaper, the County Times,is. As my hon. Friend rightly suspected, two journalists— Richard Jones and photographer Phil Blagg—have been I shall therefore end with another question. Is the here from the County Times, because they believe in Minister willing to hear from a delegation from mid-Wales? reporting accurately and seeing at the coal face what, in Obviously, that is my interest. Is he willing to hear from this case, their MP does, but they also do that in many editors such as Nick Knight and others about what they other environments, whether industrial, educational, would like the Government to do to protect these vital cultural or social. That is because they want to get it services? As I said, none of them wants a handout. right in a way that I am sorry to say the national press They simply want a hand-up, so that they can carry on seems not as concerned to do. serving the communities that they have served for more As we heard, the problems are very serious. The than a century. They have done that with a dignity, County Times is part of North West News Media and is nobility, accuracy and grace that it would behove the facing real difficulties. Northcliffe has just announced national press to reflect. 30 more job cuts in Wales. I understand that the constrictive merger and takeover laws prevent some changes from 3.5 pm taking place that would protect local newspaper jobs. Someone who works in the media in my area put it Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I congratulate the simply: hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) on securing this interesting debate. He is right to say that local “To continue to do this we must survive as a local business. We are not asking for handouts, but we could do with some consideration newspapers face a grave crisis. Seventy newspapers have from local Government.” closed in the past year and analysts have warned that up to half the UK’s local and regional newspapers may be I agree with that sentiment. shut within the next five years. The local newspaper business model relies heavily on The recent “Digital Britain” report pointed out that advertising, as we heard. It accounts for about two thirds of local newspapers’ turnover. In recent years, “there’s an imminent danger that large parts of the UK will be left advertising spend has been in a general decline of without professionally verified sources of information.” between 10 and 20 per cent., but since the recession hit, The importance of strong local and regional news came advertising in key sectors such as housing, cars and jobs through in “Digital Britain”. Indeed, my right hon. has plummeted. Newspapers are desperately exposed Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and because of the trend towards advertising online. In Sport described it as 2007, all media sectors except cinema and radio lost “essential for the health and vibrancy of our democracy”.—[Official market share to the internet. We can give many examples, Report, 16 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 166.] but the mood music is clear. Local newspapers need to No one is saying that the standard of journalism in have more consideration than they have had so far if local papers is perfect, but local reporters are close to they are to survive. the community and they do try to provide independently My first request, therefore, is for the Minister’s verified stories in print. Local newspapers provide more observations on the report by Lord Carter of Barnes, diversity and access for different groups than the new which earlier this year did not seem to go very far in army of bloggers could ever hope to achieve. The relaxing laws on mergers and takeovers. Surely it is problem with blogs as a source of news is that they are better to allow mergers and takeovers to occur than to self-selective and provide the view of one individual, lose local newspapers altogether. I would welcome the not a balanced view. They often carry more opinion observations of the Minister and others in that regard. than facts and it would be a pity if they became one of We are talking not about Murdoch-style empires, but our main sources of information. 115WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 116WH

[Ann Coffey] because controversial planning notices could find their way to a secluded part of a council’s newspaper or The local newspaper is more than news. It is a way of website. We need proposals to be set out in black and binding our communities together and of archiving the white in a place where all the community—young and history of a community. My local paper, the Stockport old, web users or not—know that they can find them. Express, has archives going back more than a century. That brings me to the adverse impact on local newspapers It is difficult to see how the internet will provide such an of local authorities’increasing role in taking paid advertising archive in 100 years. to support local authority information sheets or council Research shows that local newspapers are the most newspapers. I support the proposal in “Digital Britain” trusted of all media, yet ironically, according to figures for the Audit Commission to undertake an inquiry into obtained by the Newspaper Society, of the £193 million the issue. The Newspaper Society wants strict guidelines that the Government spent on advertising in 2008, only issued to all local authorities to ensure that their publications 3.3 per cent was spent in regional press and local are quarterly or less frequent. It also wants the guidelines newspapers. That was far less than was spent on radio to ensure that local authority publications and websites and TV and less than half what was spent on posters— do not take advertising or statutory notices and that 7.6 per cent. they focus on providing information about council services Departments, which are already encouraged and expected rather than general local news and non-council events to connect with local communities by engaging with listings. Councils should be encouraged to use the local local and regional media, should also look favourably media, not compete with them. on local and regional media, rooted within those I welcome the current consultation on proposals for a communities, for advertising campaigns, recognising contestable element in the television licence fee to fund the unique public value, trusted environment and sustainable independent and impartial news through effectiveness that such spend offers, with resulting benefits independently financed news consortiums. Such for the local community. consortiums would include television news providers, My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for local newspaper groups or other news-gathering agencies. Health, who is the former Culture Secretary, said recently That would provide a great opportunity for local newspapers that he believes that there is a significant public benefit to work with other news gatherers and to benefit from in Departments putting more ad spend into local cross-promotion to help to safeguard their futures. newspapers. I agree. The loss of advertising to online Apparently, there are to be three pilots—one in Scotland, media, coupled with the recession, is one of the main one in Wales and one in England—and I would encourage causes of financial problems for newspapers. my hon. Friend the Minister to choose the bid from the I have had experience of that in my own constituency Granada area for the English pilot. The bid is being put with job losses at the Stockport Express and the move of together by a number of north-west newspaper publishers, its office and journalists to the Manchester Evening including the Guardian Media Group, which also has News head office. I objected to that because I fear that, experience of running the Channel m TV station. As in the long run, the unique nature of the Stockport long as the bid firmly safeguards individual papers, Express and its long connection with the Stockport such as the Stockport Express, which is part of the community will be undermined. Instead of being a Guardian Media Group, I will be in favour of it. newspaper in its own right, it could become a slip Whatever emerges from the consultation, the popular, edition of the Manchester Evening News. That would be localised aspects of newspapers should not be lost. We a shame, as the Stockport Express is one of only 25 paid-for should not forget that regional and national news TV weekly papers in the UK to have increased sales from and radio are very reliant on stories that are fed to them readers, who love its grass-roots coverage. by local newspaper reporters on the ground. TV must I recently tabled a series of parliamentary questions plug local newspapers and promote and credit their to all Departments to establish how much the level of stories on air to encourage people to buy those papers. advertising in weekly and regional newspapers had gone In the past, there has been tension. Newspapers have down in the past five years. Some Departments provided not wanted subsidies, because journalists and owners more detailed information than others. The key findings felt that that might affect their independence. However, were that spending on weekly and regional advertisements I detect a sea change in thinking, which has been had clearly gone down in the major Departments of prompted by the current crisis in the industry. People Health, of Communities and Local Government, for now realise that local newspapers are too precious to International Development, for Business, Enterprise lose and that they should be entitled to some form of and Regulatory Reform and the Northern Ireland Office. subsidy for providing a public service and keeping the It has also slumped heavily at the Foreign Office, where community informed about what its local councils, the Minister responsible explained that the fall was due courts and police, health and fire services are up to. The to a large increase in the use of internet advertising and BBC and ITV are highly subsidised and regulated, but a large reduction in the number of recruitment campaigns we do not worry about their independence. The time is from 2006 to 2007. The Home Office figure was also right for a change of heart, and independently financed down on 2004-05, although it was up on the previous news consortiums should provide the way forward. three years. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Transport and the Ministry of Defence provided no figures, and the other Departments were not clear. 3.13 pm The amount of advertising from the Government will Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I congratulate heavily decrease if the obligation to place statutory the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) on notices in local papers is removed. That would be wrong securing this important debate. 117WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 118WH

Local newspapers are facing a hard time, and the I want to finish with a brief point about Welsh-language issue is particularly acute in Wales because newspapers newspapers, which, for me, offers a glimmer of a way are published in two languages. Furthermore, the nature forward. With his close family connections to my of daily newspaper production means that the overwhelming constituency, the Minister will know that Caernarfon majority of the population—about 85 per cent.—read was once the epicentre of Welsh-language publishing, London newspapers. That has direct implications for but I am afraid that that is no longer the case. We now democratic accountability, and particularly for the Welsh have two weekly Welsh-language newspapers and various Assembly. London-based newspapers rarely report Welsh inserts in other papers. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion news, and their Welsh correspondents have long gone. said, however, we do have a network of community Where there are Welsh reports, they are included only in newspapers. They are not “newsy” newspapers, but they so far as they are relevant to English or UK news or at least tell people what is happening in their communities. where they have sport or showbiz connotations. Otherwise, I recently visited Barcelona with the Select Committee they are in the “And finally” category with the weird on Welsh Affairs, and we looked at community newspapers vegetables, the two-headed ducks and the mysterious there. The key to their success is community involvement sightings. That is the daily fare for readers of newspapers coupled with high quality. We should be looking at in Wales, unless they read locally produced papers. places abroad where newspapers succeed. I have an Added to that is the fact that providing newspapers in interest in minority languages, and what is happening in two languages involves particular pressures. Crisis is areas such as Catalonia, which are struggling to maintain not too fancy a word for the democratic deficit that we interest not only in newspapers but in minority languages, face in Wales, and that is particularly true of the production is a great spur. There is much to be learned from such of television news. ITV has more or less disappeared. areas, including about the use of new technology. When I told colleagues that having two languages in Wales was a particular problem, it was suggested that 3.19 pm we could have ITV news on Channel 4. When I pointed out that Channel 4 in Wales is S4C and that the news, Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s although it happens to be in Welsh, is produced by the Bush) (Lab): I am grateful that I have been squeezed monolithic BBC, the crisis became all too obvious. into the debate and I will limit myself to a single point As elsewhere, newspapers are facing pressures from in my five minutes. I want to expand on the point that I other news sources, and the main pressure, as has been made in my intervention on the hon. Member for said, is on advertising revenue. That pressure comes Ceredigion (Mark Williams), who has rightly given us from other media, such as web-based media, and its another opportunity to debate the serious issue of the impact on journalists and editors has been all too clear. abuse of power and the misuse of public resources by I am a member of the NUJ’s parliamentary group and I local authorities. have a particular concern about the pressures on those In saying that, I do not underestimate the other who work in the industry. I recently visited my own factors involved, such as the appalling action by Trinity local newspaper, the Caernarfon Herald, which, in contrast Mirror in my area, although I know that other groups to some hon. Members, I will mention only once. I are involved in these things. Such groups have caused talked to the editor and the executive in charge of long-standing titles to collapse and have then closed business in north Wales, who explained the streamlining them, sacking highly respected and dedicated journalists. that has recently gone on. There has, for example, been The local authority role, if not the most significant, is a reduction in the number of sub-editors, so journalists certainly the most dangerous and insidious in undermining now write copy almost directly on to the page. There are an independent and free local press. In making those also pressures on journalists to produce several types of comments I hope that I shall attract support from the copy. I was quite surprised to see that reports from the three Front-Bench spokesmen. I say that for two reasons. House that had appeared in the Daily Post, which is the First, the last time I debated the issue in this Chamber, morning newspaper, had also appeared in the weekly on 20 January, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey) newspapers, although they were, of course, slightly made some slightly graceless and rather parti pris comments changed. Presumably, those stories would also appear on the matter. He may crow at the moment because on the website. There are therefore pressures on journalists most town halls are under Conservative control, but to produce all kinds of material, but there has been no that changes over time, and he may come, in time, and I increase in the numbers of journalists and certainly not hope sooner rather than later, to agree with the view in the number of local journalists. that hon. Members of all parties have been expressing. What is lost, as the hon. Member for Ceredigion eloquently said, is local accountability—reports about Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): What the hon. local council or local court proceedings. Such things are Gentleman characterises as graceless was merely my the bread and butter of local reporting. They are often pointing out that when he was leader of the council he not riveting, but they are essential if local communities published a free sheet to go to constituents, which cost are to be kept informed and engaged. Without such council tax payers £300,000. Therefore, he is carping reports, we will have a democratic deficit. That is what I slightly in criticising the current administration for fear we will see in the forthcoming Westminster elections publishing a free sheet at no cost to council tax payers. in Wales and what we saw in the Welsh Assembly Perhaps he will give a guarantee that if, God forbid, his elections, when many people’s ignorance of what was party were ever to come back to run Hammersmith and going on in the Assembly was all too manifest in the Fulham, he would close the free newspaper. level of discussion and in the turnout. We ignore that decline at our peril. Given the information on web-based Mr. Slaughter: The hon. Gentleman has not learned sites and even local web-based sites, there are questions his lesson, but perhaps by the end of my speech he will to be asked about their accountability and credibility. have done. The second of the two reasons I wanted to 119WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 120WH

[Mr. Slaughter] Mr. Vaizey rose— set out was that there is an early-day motion in the Mr. Slaughter: I have to stop now. name of the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Galloway), and an amendment in my name, signed Mr. Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman mentioned me. by members of all three parties—in fact, members of four parties—which clearly puts Labour and Tory councils Mr. Slaughter: I am being told to sit down. The hon. in the dock for their publications. I think that my hon. Gentleman should come back on the point; he has the Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John opportunity of a 10-minute speech and I have had the McDonnell) has signed it. opportunity of a five-minute speech. I invite him to In the brief time that I have, I want to use the come back on the point, but ask him please to be a little example of Hammersmith and Fulham’s H and F News, contrite and considered in his comments when he does. which is published, although one would not know it, by the local council. It is a 64-page newspaper, fully 3.24 pm underwritten by the taxpayers, with hidden subsidy—all Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate my the costs that a local paper would have, in accommodation, hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) staffing and so on, are covered, and completely underwritten on initiating the debate, if only because it provides hon. by public money. Members with an opportunity to ingratiate themselves I think that the marketing strategy goes further than with their local newspapers. I shall resist that temptation, hon. Members have so far said. The paper crows about because my local journal is so intelligent that it would what it calls the poor quality and low circulation of see through it straight away; it reads me like a book. local newspapers—it says it can deliver to every door in I recognise that all local journalists are having a hard the borough once every fortnight and claims to have time. They are losing jobs. There is a fall in advertising. nearly 10 times the readers of the nearest equivalent—and They have competition, as has been mentioned, from about its advertising offer, its huge splash and everything the web, local radio and television. They struggle to get it can do, all of which is done by professional marketing the younger generation on board. I do not see the Local people and, to their shame, journalists who have taken Government Association as a significant long-term threat, the shilling to leave the independent sector. It is quite as most councils will soon be so strapped for cash that brazen about it. The chap who edits it, who used to be a they will not be able to put out any pieces of paper at local journalist, says: all. However, I recognise that local newspapers are “The reality is councils such as Hammersmith and Fulham are strongly supportive of their own economies, which contrasts being forced into producing weekly and fortnightly newspapers in quite well with national organisations such as the BBC, order to fill a vacuum that has developed as a result of which lose nothing—as they are cushioned by the licence …underinvestment from within the industry”. fee—from talking down the economy, something a local newspaper would never do. That is rather like a kerb crawler saying he is simply providing a service to young women who otherwise Papers are essentially business. They sell information, would not have their sexual appetites satisfied. I think of two kinds: information about products, which is that we shall treat it with the contempt it deserves. called advertising; and information about communities, which is called news. Those are obviously linked activities. As a consequence, two long-standing publications, However—this point was made by the hon. Member for the Fulham and Hammersmith Chronicle and the Stockport (Ann Coffey)—they provide a cement for the Hammersmith and Shepherds Bush Gazette, each with community. They inform and provide a forum for more than a century of independent publication behind discussion; they air problems and campaign for solutions. them, are now effectively merged, and a shadow of their They may not do those things in a perfect way. From former selves. Their chances, against the competition—if time to time they are, indeed, guilty of bias, and are not we can call it competition—of a new newspaper starting a mirror but a refracting medium, but they cannot be up, are effectively nil. that way for long, because they need to stay in touch If there is any doubt left about what I am saying, I with the community that they serve. That, I guess, is end with this example. There was only one story in what local journalism is about—turning everyday life Hammersmith and Fulham last week. It had two pages into everyday news. That requires lots of journalists—what in the Evening Standard under the headline, “Plot to rid I would call community journalists, who have the same council estates of poor”, and the editorial and an status, I think, as good classroom teachers. Their status article in the Daily Mirror under the headline, “Tories needs to be elevated. They tell the story against a plan homes ‘social cleansing’”. Of course, it also potentially vast news base. My hon. Friend the Member had the front-page story in the excellent Fulham for Ceredigion illustrated all that that might involve in and Hammersmith Chronicle under the headline his speech. “Thousands to face losing homes”. That story was by We might compare that with national papers, which Aidan Jones, an excellent local reporter. I predict that exist almost entirely in the Westminster bubble, relaying no mention of that story will be found in the council chitchat and recycling the same material again and newspaper. A story about how the courageous council again, and giving us endless doses of celebrity-watching: is regenerating the scheme with the full support of by going on the tube, I learn more about who goes in MegaGreed plc might be found—but not the truth. and out of Boujis than I strictly speaking need to. We That is the problem. What is happening is see more and more stuff being syndicated and more and undermining, corrupting and corroding not just local more pressure on newspapers to sensationalise and, democracy but the democracy in this House, and the where they cannot do that, pad everything out by piling hon. Member for Wantage should bear that in mind. on comment instead of facts. 121WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 122WH

If local journalism is troubled, journalism itself is in The constructive approach of establishing a newspaper trouble. We shall get down to increasingly limited consortium is the way forward, but I have some concerns. information, circulated anonymously, to anomic and The new Secretary of State may reconvene that meeting, remote communities. A foretaste of that can already be so that all sectors of the industry can get together again seen in some regional papers. I picked up a Nottingham to see how far things have gone. My worry is about evening paper at the weekend and for no apparent where the funding will come from. Top-slicing the BBC’s reason it included very little news about Nottingham, income will begin to undermine it. There needs to be a but it did have a picture of Barack Obama meeting the wider look at technology levies. We have raised the Pope. It was not even on the day he met him; it was just question before, and it works in other countries. How there because it occupied space. will the news consortium pilot scheme work in practice? We should not underestimate the genuine interest What will happen to the staff used by channel 3 news that communities have in themselves. If local journalism providers? If ITV regional news is replaced, but the goes, not only will journalism go, but communities will company is not a partner in the consortium, how will change. In contrast to the Nottingham example, I had the employment rights of existing ITV employees be the delight of reading, the other day, the Westmorland protected? Gazette. I do not know if any hon. Members are familiar As my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West with it, but it is a broadsheet time warp newspaper, full (Paul Flynn) said, if public funding is to go to those of enormous detail about the community. It is very consortiums, how will the Government ensure quality successful, because community journalism can and does journalism and a balanced approach to the reportage of work. I am sure that it will morph, and become more news in the local area? If we are to subsidise local web-wise and interactive, but I hope that it will not journalism, we must ensure that we invest in quality disappear, because I am certain that it has a key role, local journalism. This is not about restoring the profitability and it must survive. of some companies. In the good times, they made massive profits but failed to reinvest. That is partly why Ann Winterton (in the Chair): If the last two speakers the industry is in crisis. can possibly contain their remarks to about three minutes, everyone will get in. 3.32 pm Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate my hon. 3.28 pm Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) on John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I securing this debate. shall try to speak in less time than that, Lady Winterton. The news has been defined as something that people This is the fourth or fifth debate on the topic in the do not want us to see. All who have spoken in the debate past 18 months, and I congratulate the hon. Member have been at the difficult end of that. The Birmingham for Ceredigion (Mark Williams). I am the secretary of Post required all local MPs to pre-publish their expenses. the NUJ trade union group in Parliament. To save my One or two MPs were rather reticent to do so, but we speaking, hon. Members can find the latest updates nevertheless complied. That shows the power of the about job losses by looking at the NUJ’s latest briefing. local press. Local papers, such as the Solihull News and When we debated the matter 12 months ago, 1,200 jobs the Solihull Times, publish what our MPs in my area had been lost. I think that we are near 2,000 now. have been up to, but many are not totally comfortable Things are the same in my area, where Trinity Mirror with that. has lost its office and a number of staff, and that is The important thing is that local newspapers should undermining the papers, because a spiralling decline report on councillors’ grubby dealings. Council-run papers begins. If journalists are not there, the news cannot be may publish the local news and the variety of other covered, so people cannot read the news and circulation things described this afternoon, but they do not contain declines and people will not advertise. We are in that any of that hard news. They publish only what they cycle. want us to see. That is why I agree with the hon. What I resent is that Trinity Mirror, to use it as an Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush example, is still a profitable company. It had profits of (Mr. Slaughter). 16.6 per cent. up to 2008, and the figure for Johnston It is clear that the industry is in trouble. It has been in newspapers was 19 per cent. at one point. They are still trouble for some time—long before the recession started. profitable; indeed, comparing them with Tesco at 5 per The Trinity Mirror group of newspapers has shrunk; on cent., they are very profitable. At the same time, however, 2 July, it was announced that nine newspapers and 120 they were cutting staff; 31 per cent. of their production jobs in the west midlands would be lost. Staffing and journalistic staff went in the seven years before complements have been cut by all local papers, and 2008. There is an element of crying wolf, but we nevertheless advertising has dropped by 40 per cent. over the past want to preserve the local press. two years and is still falling. Local newspapers are in As a result of the NUJ’s meeting with the former competition with the internet for advertising, and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, now internet steals their local and regional news stories—another the Secretary of State for Health, and thanks to his problem that needs to be addressed. hard work, we had a meeting—it was requested earlier— Regional TV is no longer local, and the regions seem with all sectors of the industry to consider the way to be expanding hugely. The only repository of truly forward. That meeting took place two months ago. local news is therefore the local newspaper, with regional Ofcom made proposals for a news consortium that additions. That is what we want, and that is what we could be funded partly by the savings of digital switchover. need to keep. What is the solution? We have discussed However, the new idea is to top-slice the BBC’s licence fee. mergers and the “Digital Britain” report, and I look 123WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 124WH

[Lorely Burt] Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), many hundreds of editorial jobs have been lost; alongside forward to the Audit Commission inquiry. It would be that, however, many hundreds of support staff jobs extremely helpful if the Minister commented on that. have gone. What about collaboration? Why not use local reporters, We must remember that 1,300 local and regional jointly engaged by regional TV and radio? We would newspapers remain. They employ some 12,000 journalists then have the best of all worlds. and 30,000 support staff. They are beginning to fight back. Because of a shortage of capital, they did not 3.34 pm invest early enough in websites, but they are now doing so; for instance, at www.thisisbath.co.uk, my local newspaper Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD): I congratulate my hon. is now a thriving provider of daily local news, with Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) 80,000 unique hits every month, up 40 per cent. from not only on securing this debate but on his excellent and last year. Many other local newspapers are doing the thought-provoking speech. same. Like many other Members, I feel passionate about Much more needs to be done to help those newspapers. the importance of local newspapers, something that We heard a number of suggestions. The “Digital Britain” was summed up extremely well by my hon. Friend the report and Ofcom suggest that the BBC should become Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) when he said that if involved in partnership proposals. We heard about that local journalism goes, communities will change. He from the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington and meant, of course, that they would change for the worse. others. There is an opportunity to use the BBC’s resources I spoke earlier today with the deputy editor of my to provide support and help to other news outlets excellent local newspaper, The Bath Chronicle.Asone through the independently funded news consortiums would expect, he was totally passionate about local and and partnership proposals. Like him, I am deeply worried regional newspapers. He said that they are important about the Government’s proposal to top-slice the BBC, because they stimulate the lifeblood of local communities which will take money away from it without its involvement. and are the bastions of knowledge and democracy, By all means, let the BBC become more involved in especially in holding local government to account. With partnership work, which is what it wants, and has high-quality investigative journalism, they are able to started, to do. However, that should be within the remit shine a light into dark corners, and they provide a safety of the BBC, using money from the BBC and with its valve for local democracy. involvement. I am delighted that 15 Labour Members As we have heard, however, times are hard. Having have signed his early-day motion opposing that policy. been one of the longest surviving continually produced People referred to the importance of the relaxation of daily newspapers, The Bath Chronicle has become a cross-media ownership rules. I am delighted that the weekly newspaper. The number of editorial and commercial Office of Fair Trading and Ofcom are now considering staff has been cut, and in the last few days we heard that such a move. The Government have said that it is a number of production activities such as subbing are important. I was also delighted that we had a lengthy to be moved to Bristol, with a further loss of local jobs. debate about the important role that local councils can As a result, it becomes ever more difficult for our local play by not overly developing their own media outlets, newspapers to carry out investigative journalism, and particularly taking advertising away from local newspapers. to ask the hard questions that are so crucial to shining a That is critical. However, we should look very carefully light in dark places and holding local councils and at the LGA’s figures, of which some were overly scornful. other local bodies to account. As the hon. Member for The vast majority of local councils are not taking Stockport (Ann Coffey) said, that cannot be properly action that is—currently, at least—causing problems for replaced by biased bloggers hiding away in their darkened local newspapers. I welcome what the hon. Member for rooms. Stockport said about the important role of central My local newspaper is not alone. As we have heard, Government in helping local newspapers. local and regional newspapers have been facing difficulties Finally, all sorts of other exciting developments are for many years, difficulties exacerbated not only by the taking place, such as ways of bringing different journalists recent recession but by much newspaper advertising together. The Press Association’s initiative in Merseyside being moved, particularly to the internet. In 2000, 1 per to provide an independent source of journalistic information cent. of all advertising was done on the internet and it is for local newspapers could be developed. No doubt we now about 20 per cent. In 2008, we saw a £400 million will hear more from the hon. Member for Wantage drop in the advertising in local and regional newspapers—a (Mr. Vaizey) about his party’s proposals for local television, fall of 19 per cent.—and the figures are getting worse. which I hope will not further damage local newspapers. Crucially, the classified ads that used to be so important I hope to hear that it will work in consultation with in selling local newspapers are now going to the internet. them. Local newspapers are critical, and we must take In 2000, 45 per cent. of all classified advertisements action now to provide support for them, or far more were to be found in local newspapers, and only 2 per will close. cent. on the internet. Now, 45 per cent. of all classified ads are on the internet, and only a quarter are to be 3.42 pm found in our local newspapers. Circulation is down, advertising is down and, as a result, revenue is down. Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): I am grateful The lifeblood of local newspapers is dwindling. They for the opportunity to debate under your excellent are in great difficulty. Sadly, many have had to close. chairmanship for the first time, Lady Winterton. I do Last year alone, 60 titles closed, all of them a loss to not wish to give too much fodder for local or national their local communities. As we heard from the hon. journalists to write articles about the disgustingly incestuous 125WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 126WH nature of the Westminster village, but I welcome the It would be useful to hear from the Minister when he Minister to his post as the Minister for the digital expects Ofcom to report and, when it does report, when industries or creative Britain—or whatever title he might he expects the Government to look at it and reach a choose to use. I have known him for many years and conclusion on what parts of the review they will implement. have the utmost respect for his ability and judgment. More than anything, local newspapers need a certain, His only misjudgment ever was to join the wrong political clear, regulatory landscape and a clear way forward. It party. However, I am sure that he will make an excellent would be an extremely useful contribution to hear the Minister and I look forward to debating with him in the timetable for what I hope will be a clear-sighted report months to come. from Ofcom calling for the relaxation of local media rules, recognising that the landscape has changed and We have heard a great deal from hon. Members this that the internet now provides a much wider horizon, afternoon—nine speeches, in addition to that of the which has to be taken into account when considering Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for competition measures. Bath (Mr. Foster). They set out the woes of the local newspaper industry, of which this House is only too Dr. Pugh: The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful well aware. I think that this is the third time in six or contribution. Local newspapers face competition for seven months that we have debated this matter. However, breaking major news stories, but an awful lot of what I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark we illustrated as being in local papers is not of that Williams) on giving us another opportunity to emphasise nature; it is about local football teams and events. the point that this House takes what is happening in the Guido Fawkes and Iain Dale do not pepper their blogs local newspaper industry very seriously. As so many with such information, and never will. In a sense, they hon. Members have pointed out, it is fundamental to are not in competition in the way that he stresses. the health not only of our local democracy. Newspapers do not exist simply to uncover the wrongdoings of hon. Mr. Vaizey: Perhaps I did not express myself clearly Members or local councillors, but to play a vital role in enough. For example, a website such as ConservativeHome bringing a community together. Picking up the local provides a community base for those of us interested in paper, either daily or weekly, reminds us of what is Conservative politics. Although it might break news, it going on in our communities and prevents us from also keeps us in touch with what that wider community becoming solitary people living in rabbit hutches, going is doing. [Interruption.] Luckily, I did not hear the hon. to work then coming home and simply switching on the Member for Southport’s intervention. It might have television. broken my smooth stride as I move closer to setting out the Conservative policy. The hon. Member for Bath was right to point out that we still have a sizeable local newspaper industry. Finally, the Government have proposed independently We are a newspaper nation. We have far more national financed news consortiums. I was pleased to hear the newspaper titles per head than almost any other country scepticism from hon. Members about the Government’s in the world, and we still enjoy reading our newspapers, proposals. Conservative Members oppose top-slicing of but change is afoot and technology is knocking at the the BBC. I was astonished by the attack launched by door. As people have pointed out, a perfect storm of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on technology coupled with a recession is proving to be the BBC leadership. The Government have a tradition extraordinarily testing for local newspapers. It is dangerous of attacking the BBC leadership when it dares to disagree to get into a mindset in which one simply tries to prop with them. We saw that with the David Kelly affair and up existing institutions without recognising that change the Hutton report. But attacking the BBC for a lack of is afoot. Blogs, such as ConservativeHome, Iain Dale’s leadership simply because the director-general disagrees Diary or Guido Fawkes’ blog, are effectively taking over with Government policy—which, I remind the Minister, some of the role of national newspapers and are capable is not actually Government policy, but technically under of breaking important stories with very few resources. consultation—crosses a line. I am sure that the Secretary That shows that technology will help to fill the vacuum. of State, once he gets into his stride, gets his feet under Nevertheless, we should, as Members of this House, be the desk and understands his job, will want to apologise looking to provide potential solutions for local newspapers. to the director-general for the attack. The main job of finding a solution rests with local newspapers, which are, after all, private organisations, Mr. Don Foster: I know that the hon. Gentleman but the Government must be there to make that possibility wants to rush to his conclusion, but are we hearing effective. today a complete reversal of the Conservative party position as expressed on 20 May. Then his party proposed The Government have published “Digital Britain” to freeze the licence fee, which would effectively top-slice and set out a range of options. On the same day it the amount of money that the BBC gets, but now it is published the OFT’s—disappointing—analysis of the saying that it would not. Back then, the Government local newspaper market. The document effectively said said that they opposed top-slicing, but today they are that the OFT would do nothing unless, or until, a proposing it. We, on the Liberal Democrat Benches, are referral was made and recommended no changes to the getting very confused. current regime. Ofcom is also considering media ownership rules. I know that the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Mr. Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman has fulfilled a role, other hon. Members have called for local cross-media for many years, as my mentor, but at this point I would ownership rules to be relaxed. We, on this side of the say to him—perhaps the pupil is getting above himself—do House, share that point of view and have called for that not be too clever by half. We have said that the licence relaxation. We have urged Ofcom to bring its review to fee should be frozen for a year because we are going a speedy conclusion. through a recession and we want to help hard-working 127WH Local and Regional Newspapers15 JULY 2009 Local and Regional Newspapers 128WH

[Mr. Vaizey] My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn) spoke with his customary vigour about the families. We find it hypocritical that the Government lack of accountability of local newspapers. He said that are saying, “Don’t touch the licence fee. By the way, they can be biased and unfair on some occasions. Like we’re taking 3.5 per cent. off the licence fee and will do many hon. Members, the hon. Member for with it as we want”, which is exactly what they did—by Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) referred to his local the way—with the lottery. newspaper as a particularly trusted source of news and We are also concerned about independently financed information for the community. He described the County news consortiums. In effect the Government are saying, Times as a role model. He also asked whether he could “This is how things have been, and this is how they bring a delegation of editors to see me. Of course he should always have been”. We all know that regional can, but it must be an appropriately sized delegation of news was based around the old transmitter system, and nice and good editors. it was not regional news in the true sense of the word. Mr. Don Foster: Well turned out as well? I hope that everyone can hear the clatter of the hooves as the knight on his white charger arrives in the form of Conservative party policy, which was presented Mr. Simon: Yes, that is always important. We take to the media this afternoon. The Speaker’s rules about note of such things in the Department, as I am learning. announcing party policy in the House before talking to The hon. Member for Stockport displayed his customary the media do not yet apply; they will take effect in a pithy precision. [HON.MEMBERS: “Southport!”] Sorry, I year’s time. mean Southport. Is it different? What we have put forward is a consultation document, which is written by the well respected, legendary journalist Dr. Pugh: A bit. Roger Parry, on the creation of viable local multi-media companies in the UK. In the one minute I have left, let Mr. Simon: I am running out of time, as well as me simply say that this is a bottom-up solution for local digging myself into a deep hole. The hon. Member for television and multi-media consortiums using local Southport (Dr. Pugh) talked—[Interruption.] Oh, it spectrum. Ofcom has identified 81 areas in which local was my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann multi-media consortiums could be put in place. They Coffey). Sorry. When I wrote Stockport, I was looking will include video, audio, print and web. Production at the hon. Gentleman. My hon. Friend talked at great costs will be much lower. There will be economies of length and with some erudition about Government scale and the consortiums will rely on the use of volunteers. advertising. Ideally, I should like to talk to her in They will be truly local multi-media organisations, and greater detail about that. She made some interesting we expect local newspaper groups to play a very important points. They did not come from the mainstream, which role in bidding for the spectrum licences so that we can is all that I have read on the matter so far. If she would create truly local television and a vital multi-media like to explore those ideas a bit more, I would be very organisation that will be the saving solution for local glad to talk to her about them. newspapers. Mr. Vaizey: I hate to give the impression that I might 3.51 pm be jumping the queue, but given that there are only four The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, minutes left, will the Minister say when he expects Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): It is a great pleasure Ofcom to report on cross-media ownership? to serve under your chairmanship, Lady Winterton. I do not have a lot of time, but I will do my best to refer Mr. Simon: That is jumping the queue, but let me say to everyone who has spoken. that the Communications Act 2003 lays down that Naturally, I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion Ofcom undertakes such reviews every three years. Off (Mark Williams) on securing the debate and on his the top of my head—I am new at this—the last review opening speech in which he set the ground for the entire concluded in October 2006. The official line is that it debate. He covered most of the bases and managed to will report back later this year. That should give the include not just his own local newspapers but those for hon. Gentleman an indication of the kind of time scale Porthmadog, Pwllheli, Criccieth, Llannor, Llysfaen and that we are talking about. Garndolbenmaen. Drawing all those in is a triumph for As the clock ticks, let me say that I agree with the which he should be congratulated. He also touched on hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) that the mergers, so perhaps I will set out the position. The OFT situation in Wales with respect to television is difficult looked into the market and concluded—I cannot find and needs particular attention, which is one of the key the exact phrase—that it works and that it is sufficiently reasons why Wales was chosen as one of the pilot areas. flexible and rigorous to allow a functioning local newspaper He talks about my family connection with his constituency. sector to exist. It is true that, even though I was born in south Yorkshire The hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey) said at and grew up in Birmingham, the major milestones of the end that the OFT would do nothing unless a merger my life have been recorded in the Dwyfor Leader—I am was notified. Just to be clear on that point, the OFT not sure whether it still exists—and that shows what a concluded that the market was operational, but in cases community newspaper means. One does not even have in which mergers had been notified, it would have to to live in the community to be part of the community. look in more detail at the operation of the system. So I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, the case is not closed. Work is going on to assess Acton and Shepherd’s Bush (Mr. Slaughter) and whether anything can be done to make the system more congratulate him on taking the fight to the Tory Front liberal and helpful to local newspapers. Bench so admirably. The hon. Member for Southport— 129WH Local and Regional Newspapers 15 JULY 2009 130WH although I wrote Stockport again—talked about how Combat Stress local journalism can be at the heart of communities. Later on, he said that it would morph webwise and become interactive. That is true. The future of local 4pm journalism and local news gathering will be in the hands of not just journalists but communities. Local people Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): Thank you will be delivering news to, from, by and of themselves. for the guidance that you will provide us with, Lady That does not mean that journalism does not need Winterton, through the next half hour—if the debate supporting, but we must look to new models. lasts that long—and for the chance to raise the issue of My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington combat stress. Hopefully, the debate will be very short. (John McDonnell) reminded us that, when we talk My greater hope is for a positive response from the about journalists and the service that they render to Minister, who should be sympathetic. communities, we are talking about not just abstracts I intend to focus predominantly on the UK-wide and things that are important to democracy but people— organisation Combat Stress, which is one of the main large numbers of human beings who are losing their treatment establishments and which has a main base in jobs, which is a tragedy for them and their families. my constituency. As the organisation’s name indicates, it treats ex-UK service personnel suffering post-traumatic John McDonnell: Earlier, I said that the seminar or stress disorder derived from combat. PTSD is recognised working party on industry that the Secretary of State in civil life, including among police, ambulance and fire convened some months ago was very successful. Will brigade personnel, among whom it has the nickname, the Minister liaise with the new Secretary of State to “the silent disease”. The effects on sufferers can be total find out whether or not it is appropriate to reconvene it destruction, for them as individuals and for their families. in September or October? Sufferers get nightmares and flashbacks, become hyper- vigilant, suffer panic and fear of attack, and frequently Mr. Simon: I wrote that down, and I will do just that. descend into alcoholism. By all accounts, the seminar was a great event, and I will The effects can lead to suicide. It is estimated that ask the Secretary of State to do it again. If he agrees, I 262 British Falkland veterans have taken their own will gladly attend. lives, compared with 255 lives lost in Falkland combat. The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) spoke Statistics released by the Ministry of Defence in March with her usual elegance about collaboration. The hon. last year reveal that between 1 April 1991 and 31 December Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) gave me a soupcon of 2007, 162 British Gulf veterans died wisdom about the things to come over the coming “due to intentional self-harm or from other incidents where the months. The hon. Member for Wantage shared with us intent was unclear, leading to open verdicts at inquests”— the new Conservative proposal for 80 local television that is a “Yes, Minister” type quote—which compares stations. with 24 killed in action.

Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing this debate. Is he aware of the American experience, which involves far greater numbers? The suggestion is that young men who have served are twice as likely to take their own life than those who have not served. We need to be particularly mindful of the American experience, given that it is greater than ours, when making our projection of the long tail that current operations are likely to have.

Sir Paul Beresford: My hon. Friend pips me at the post, because I was about to say that those who serve are 2.13 times more likely to take their own life. Saying that it is twice as likely will do, because it shows why it is important to deal with the problem. Increasing recognition of combat stress has, I hope, inspired the Government to ensure that general practitioners are aware of the causes and that they seek help for ex-personnel who show symptoms. Recognition is the key, but there is a need for treatment, which brings me back to Combat Stress, which specialises in the care and treatment of ex-service personnel suffering from combat- induced PTSD. It is recognised as the leading organisation in such treatment. Perhaps that is not surprising, given that it was formed in 1919 and that it has helped, treated, or both, 100,000 veterans. Combat Stress’s current active and passive lists of personnel whom they serve come from about 20 theatres of operation, ranging from Borneo, Rwanda and Burma 131WH Combat Stress15 JULY 2009 Combat Stress 132WH

[Sir Paul Beresford] and that Combat Stress’s expertise is demonstrated daily. Perhaps he could strengthen his accent and sort through to much more recent conflicts. Currently, just this out by mimicking the Scots. short of 2,000 ex-Northern Ireland veterans are on its lists. 4.7 pm To obtain better recognition of the problem, it is The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike worth looking at the new referrals to Combat Stress for O’Brien): I congratulate the hon. Member for Mole the year 2007-08, which total 1,160 cases with an average Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate. Few age of 44. Interestingly, over the 90 years, the average things can be more important than looking after the age is decreasing. The average length of military service health of the brave men and women who risk their lives of victims is about 11.5 years. However, I was surprised for us in combat, and there can be no clearer reminder that the interval between discharge from military service of the sacrifices that they make than the moving scenes and the first contact for treatment is 14 years. That yesterday in Wootton Bassett as the bodies of eight apparently is the norm and according to Combat Stress, young men were returned to their families. it has not changed for a number of years. The figures are therefore a warning, particularly given the current Despite that tragic loss of life, it is important to and recent service of so many of our troops in Iraq and remind families that the vast majority of those who see Afghanistan. It is not only a warning of demand to active service return home safe and well. Most ex-service come, but a hint for early detection. people benefit enormously from their time in the armed forces and go on to lead full and productive lives after I hope that the Minister agrees that Combat Stress is completing service, including active service in combat the leader in the field and that it should be supported to zones. the hilt by the NHS. It is not a respite organisation; it is However, in war, there are casualties, and even those an active treatment specialist for ex-service personnel who return home physically unharmed may well have with combat stress. It has 180 psychiatric clinical personnel suffered severe mental trauma that can itself prove and three centres, and specialises in getting its traumatised fatal, as it leads on occasion to suicide. It is important patients back into normal life in their communities with that we provide the best possible care for people who their families. I repeat: in that field, it is the best. have to deal with the consequences of the difficult One Combat Stress treatment centre is in Ayrshire in circumstances that they experienced in combat. Scotland and the other two are in Shropshire and Mole Afghanistan and Iraq are difficult, unfamiliar and Valley. It has also developed outreach services nationwide. extremely stressful environments. Sometimes it is hard Huge, enormous sums have been provided by public to tell friend from foe, and there are constant threats donation, from both individuals and events. Recently, it from roadside bombs, land mines and snipers. Many received £3.5 million from Help for Heroes towards a may be deeply affected by their experiences. This building programme in Leatherhead. As the Minister Government believe that we need to do all that we can will be aware, the Leatherhead combat stress centre is to give the right kind of support to those serving their close to and linked with Headley Court. country and returning to civilian life. Charitable donations amount to about 58 per cent. of The most common mental health problems treated in running costs and the remaining 42 per cent. comes the military are similar to those treated in the civilian from the MOD—that is for this year. However, as the population: anxiety, depression and alcohol problems. Minister will be aware, responsibility for funding is Research from Manchester university shows lower rates— moving from the MOD to the Department of Health. There has been no problem for the Combat Stress unit 4.10 pm in Ayrshire. The Scottish NHS has recognised the need, Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. and has agreed full funding to come directly from a central source. Sadly, that is not the case south of the border. 4.20 pm On resuming— I am sure that the Minister will recognise, and I hope accept, the need for full funding. The need is self-apparent, Mr. O’Brien: I was talking about the research by as is Combat Stress’s expertise, but it appears that there Manchester university that shows lower rates of suicide is a bureaucratic problem. The current approach for among armed forces leavers than among the general Combat Stress, as I understand it, is that it seeks population. The one exception is that there is a higher funding from the primary care trust for each individual rate of suicide among young, male ex-service personnel patient. That is a minefield. The cost to the charity in who have served for only a short period. The reasons for dealing with the bureaucracy and various foibles of so that are not clear. The research does not comment on many PCTs does not bear thinking about. whether the service is a factor. The general lower rate There are precedents for direct central funding in suggests that it is, but it is perhaps not the only factor. such special cases, and I believe that this is one such The most important thing is that we get help to the case. I understand from quiet discussions with the relevant people who need it, when they need it. If a serving section in the Department of Health that it feels that soldier experiences a mental health problem, they can that might well be the appropriate approach. The problem attend one of 15 community and mental health departments is that after long, drawn out discussions and negotiations, that have been set up by the Ministry of Defence. The nothing has happened and no agreement has been Ministry of Defence also provides mental health care reached. I hope—and I am sure the Minister will agree— for those posted overseas. In the UK, soldiers also have that the need is obvious, that funding will be available access to NHS outpatient mental health services. 133WH Combat Stress15 JULY 2009 Combat Stress 134WH

The situation is different for veterans. When service additional 3,600 therapists. The service personnel Command personnel leave the armed forces, they become the Paper commits us to raising awareness of the needs of responsibility of the NHS. The vast majority of service veterans and to meeting those needs. veterans will access the NHS in the same way as the rest As part of our improving access to psychological of the population. Some find it difficult to engage and therapies initiative, we published “Commissioning for need additional help in getting the treatment that they the Whole Community”, which shows how primary need. That is not surprising. Young men are often care trusts can ensure that veterans get access to the reluctant to ask for help when it comes to their health, mental health services that they need. In March, we and much more so when it comes to their mental health. issued more specific guidance on providing psychological The strong military ethos adds to that reluctance, meaning treatment to veterans. It is for PCTs to commission that soldiers are among the least likely to come forward. services, including those from the third sector, based on They are therefore difficult to identify as being in need an assessment of the needs of the local population. of help. That includes veterans. We also underlined to the NHS In partnership with the Ministry of Defence and the the importance of taking account of the special needs devolved Administrations, we have set up pilot schemes of veterans, including possible psychological conditions, in six NHS mental health trusts. The aim is to identify, in the operating framework for the NHS. treat and help veterans with mental health problems. We are currently evaluating the way in which the pilots Sir Paul Beresford: I hear what the Minister is saying have operated, what benefits there have been to the about PCTs. Although the numbers we are discussing people who have come forward with mental health are large as a percentage of the troops, they are not problems and in what ways the service needs to be large as a percentage of a PCT’s portfolio of difficulties. improved. When the final report is published, we will Therefore, there is much to be said for centralising the roll out best practice across the NHS to ensure that arrangements so that veterans get the special treatment ex-service personnel get the assistance that they need. that they need. That could include the centralised funding Combat Stress and other third sector organisations of organisations such as Combat Stress. are fully involved with the pilots. They have worked closely with the Ministry of Defence, the Department Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is right that we of Health and the NHS to plan and monitor them. We must identify where the services would best be provided. want Combat Stress and the NHS to learn from each The general view is that services are best provided where other to find the best way to help this cohort get better there is a local need for them. As he has identified, this services than they currently receive. I am the first to say is a national problem. We must ensure that we identify that the NHS still has to learn lessons in this area. how the services can best be provided and that we are However, I think that lessons are being learned from the not providing them just in London. We must have pilots. When the report comes out, I hope that we will services for personnel who are based around the country. be able to find the best way of ensuring that ex-service By and large, those will have to be local services. We personnel get help. might also need a national component. The discussions As in so many areas, providing the service that each between Combat Stress and the various commissioning individual needs requires statutory and non-statutory organisations must therefore be brought to fruition so organisations. Combat Stress does good work and the that we can put in place the overall services that will hon. Member for Mole Valley rightly pays tribute to the best ensure that those to whom we owe a debt get the way it assists service and ex-service personnel. Discussions services that they need. are taking place between Combat Stress and the national specialist commissioning group, which will consider the Sir Paul Beresford: I thank the Minister for moving in application for assistance and funding once the discussions the direction that I am trying to drive the debate. are complete. I accept his point that some of those Organisations such as Combat Stress have outreach discussions have been going on for a while and that we services that are linked closely to the pilots, as he said. must draw them to a satisfactory conclusion. As far as I Such services generally provide respite rather than treatment. am concerned, a satisfactory conclusion means ensuring The services should be driven from the centre, so that that the people who need help get that help. To do that, NHS bodies and organisations such as Combat Stress we must bring together the statutory sector and non- can put the diverse services into local areas without statutory voluntary sector to ensure that the best use is involving PCTs because of the key importance of this made of the services that people need. relatively rare and unusual problem. The use of community psychiatric nurses with Territorial Army experience has been encouraging. They have common Mr. O’Brien: It is on that point that I begin to part experiences and work with veterans’ organisations to company with the hon. Gentleman. For each individual, identify people who are not getting the right support. we must put in place a package of services that is Such psychiatric nurses can deliver treatment themselves appropriate for them. We should not assume that a or refer patients to the services that they need. We are national organisation can do that without having close investing unprecedented amounts of money in psychological involvement with the local services that a person may therapies. The treatments that people need if they are need in Doncaster, Worcester or some other part of the suffering from depression, anxiety or post-traumatic country. Such an organisation should be in contact with stress disorder are important components of that local medical services, rather than trying to parachute investment. Those are the conditions that are most in some sort of overall service nationally. Local service often experienced by ex-service personnel. That investment, provision is crucial to individuals because they might which will rise to £173 million next year, will pay for an not simply need one particular piece of medical help; 135WH Combat Stress15 JULY 2009 Combat Stress 136WH

[Mr. Mike O’Brien] Britain was sitting on a time bomb. One would have thought that such rhetoric would elicit a major set of they are more likely to need a package of help. A number proposals, but the Conservative party made just one of services need to be in a position to provide what an proposal. The single proposal—I understand that no individual needs, and that requires the local PCT to be extra money was proposed and, from the press release, I engaged in the issue. believe that no other ideas were put forward—was that Throughout the whole of the NHS, we are trying to there should be a telephone helpline. Well, the service make it clear that veterans’ issues are some of the key charities already have helplines—the Royal British Legion areas on which the NHS has to focus. The matter has has one and there is also the medical assessment unit at not been dealt with in that way in the past, so it is quite Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust. It is not a change for the NHS. I do not want to dilute the effort clear what another telephone helpline would add. I am that is going on throughout the NHS to say to PCTs, interested in the idea and will by all means look at it, which commission many of these services, “You have but such a response—a single proposal—does not seem got to ensure that the services are in place for veterans to justify the level of rhetoric of the press release and is where they are needed and that includes mental health somewhat inadequate. services.” It is important that, where there is a need to We do not want to deal with things simply by having provide some service at a national level, that can be a telephone helpline, which to some extent already done, but it is also important to ensure that where we exists; we want to put in place a larger package, so that have the ability to put in place local services—a package the whole of the NHS responds to the needs and of services—to help individuals, we do so and people concerns of services’ veterans. Responding in such a get the help that they need. way will mean that if people have mental health problems, The pilot schemes will give us a better understanding there is a package in place and we can provide services of how we can engage nationally and locally to ensure at a national level by working with organisations, such that we provide the right type of mental health service as Combat Stress. for a diversity of people. Such services will not all be standard. People with post-traumatic stress disorder We will work through the negotiations to enable the have different requirements, and it is important to respond best possible package for people. I cannot guarantee to the particular needs of those people—for example, it the outcome of the discussions, but what I can say to might be that PTSD is exacerbated by a condition the hon. Gentleman is that I will go back to those who regarding homelessness or an employment or education are negotiating and say that we want the matter resolved. issue. We need to make sure that a number of other We must continue to improve the quality of what we do local services are there to provide support. I do not for veterans, and we still have a lot of work to do. We claim that we have got it right. We must do much more have put in substantial extra funding and have made the and there is a much bigger agenda, which is why we now matter a massive priority in recent years, but we want to have a Veterans Minister in the Ministry of Defence ensure that there is a broad-based improvement in the and why we have stressed in recent years that we need to circumstances of veterans and military personnel in the have much better services for veterans. coming months and years. That is the least we can do Earlier this afternoon, I was concerned to note that—the for our service personnel. We will keep working with hon. Gentleman appears not to know about this—the other Departments and groups such as Combat Stress Conservative party put out a statement, in which it said to make sure that the right service support is put in that it regarded the provision of mental health services place for our Army, Navy and Air Force personnel. We for ex-service people to be a national scandal and that owe them that. 137WH 15 JULY 2009 Apprenticeships 138WH

Apprenticeships has been achieved through a dedicated team that offers advice and guidance to businesses and prospective apprentices. 4.35 pm The team, which is led by Knowsley community college and works alongside local subcontractor partners, Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, has increased overall college apprenticeship framework East) (Lab): I begin by making a declaration of interest. success rates by 11 per cent. to 70 per cent. in 2007-08. Some years ago, when I was 16 years old, I undertook The Minister will know that that is significantly higher an engineering apprenticeship. I will leave it to others to than the overall success rate for apprenticeship providers judge whether that was a good or bad thing for the rest across Merseyside and that it is also above the 63 per of the country. However, it has left me with a strong cent. national average—a rate that has grown from commitment and belief that, for many young people, below 40 per cent. since the apprenticeship scheme was the format of an apprenticeship is the best way for them nationally relaunched. to secure their future careers. Programmes are offered in 10 key occupational sectors I was prompted to seek this debate following the excellent at level 2 and in nine sectors at level 3. In total, they achievements of Knowsley council’s apprenticeships have reached more than 850 apprentices during the scheme. However, this is also a question of national current year. By working together in partnership, they relevance, and it is within that framework that I want to ensure that both businesses and apprentices make the conduct part of the debate. How do we ensure that we most of the excellent opportunities that are available. are prepared to thrive as a country when we come out of Of course, Knowsley is not alone among local authorities the economic downturn? Many things can be done to in implementing policies to support local people and support industry through these difficult times, but one combat unemployment. Nearly five out of six councils thing is absolutely certain: it is vital that we continue to have set targets to reduce the number of 16 to 18-year-olds build an appropriate skills base. If we cut training now, who are not in employment, education or training, there will be long-term, detrimental consequences. some 83 per cent. have targets to improve residents’ More than 130,000 businesses already offer skills and 89 per cent. have at least one target on apprenticeships in England alone, yet that number needs increasing employment. to rise considerably if the target of one in five young Despite those achievements and the accompanying people undertaking apprenticeships is to be met. That commitment that goes with them, there is cause for sets a clear direction and message about the sort of concern. With the disbanding of the national Connexions country that we want to be: one with a highly skilled service, local authorities now have responsibility for work force and a modern, vibrant economy. Of course, information, advice and guidance services for young industry has a vital role to play, but without support people in England. It has been well reported that some from the Government, businesses will inevitably struggle councils have taken that on board and are well prepared to deliver. for those responsibilities, but some services have been Funding is required to ensure that appropriate training decimated by cuts and are now patchy to say the least. is readily available. It is very helpful that the Government That service provision affects the quality of information fully cover the training costs of apprenticeship programmes and advice available to students in many secondary for those aged between 16 and 18. Given the importance schools, and it is clear that, in some cases, the necessary of having a strong skills base for the economy, I hope advice and information simply is not getting through to that that will continue, although difficult spending decisions students. I am particularly concerned that students will have to be made in the next few years. However, need to know about the advantages that apprenticeships perhaps the most challenging aspect is ensuring that the can offer, because, if they do not, the chances are that right apprenticeships are available and matched to the they will be less likely to pursue that option. Will my most appropriate prospective apprentices. I welcome hon. Friend the Minister give an assurance that the the Government’s Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and situation is being properly monitored and that action Learning Bill, and I will return to that subject later. will be taken to rectify matters where there is a less than I shall now focus on the role that local authorities can adequate service? play, using Knowsley council as an example. The council From 2010, with the disbanding of the Learning and leader, Councillor Ron Round, has taken a very active Skills Council, local authorities will be responsible for leadership role and encouraged an innovative approach commissioning apprenticeship provision for 16 to 18-year- to ensuring that potential apprentices have the right olds in their areas. The Department for Children, Schools selection of skills for the businesses that might wish to and Families is working with the Local Government take them on. Association’s React team to ensure that there is a smooth The Knowsley council 100 apprenticeships gateway transition, but while colleges and sixth forms may feature project identifies what is called a talent pool of eligible strongly on the radar of local councils, some of the young people who are keen to secure an apprenticeship. work-based learning providers that deliver the bulk of They are then matched up with local businesses and the training for apprenticeships have a lower profile. cost of training is subsidised. During the project’s first Will the Minister update us on what steps are being year of operation, in 2008-09, some 55 gateway apprentices taken to ensure that all councils are aware that they gained employment in 27 different companies. The sectors have a responsibility to promote apprenticeships equally involved included accountancy, engineering, IT, business with other post-16 learning options and that, in the administration, hospitality, customer service and social pursuit of best value in commissioning arrangements, care. Phase 2 of the programme was launched earlier work-based learning providers are invited to tender for this month, and more than 600 applicants and 106 the delivery of apprenticeship training alongside other prospective employers have already been identified. That providers? I have reason to believe that some employers—for 139WH Apprenticeships15 JULY 2009 Apprenticeships 140WH

[Mr. George Howarth] As my right hon. Friend has indicated, the Government are committed to building on the solid foundation of example, one person who is able to offer some training apprenticeships that we have laid in the past 12 years by as a provider—are often at a disadvantage in comparison increasing the number of apprenticeships available to with larger organisations, which are in a better position young people and adults. In 1996, the number of people to tender. Such training may make a small contribution, starting apprenticeships was just 65,000; by 2007, that but it may also be significant, and it might be worth the number had increased to about 225,000, which was a Minister looking into how that situation works. 22 per cent. increase on the number in the previous year. It is important to remember that real apprenticeships The Government have helped more than 2 million people include a contract of employment with a local employer to start an apprenticeship, and we aim to have delivered and that young people value those contracts. Work-based more than 250,000 apprenticeship starts each year by learning providers, by definition, have very close links 2020. To support that commitment, the Prime Minister to local businesses. Local authorities across the country announced a £140 million package in January to deliver should look at the case studies that are available, particularly an additional 35,000 apprenticeships this year, building that provided by Knowsley council, and consider whether on the £1 billion that has already been invested. He was they would benefit from implementing a similar approach. right to say that investing strongly in apprenticeships will help not only those young people, but the country’s I have mentioned the snappily titled Apprenticeships, competitiveness, and it will extend opportunities to Skills, Children and Learning Bill, which is currently people who face redundancy. completing its remaining stages in another place. It includes measures to establish the YoungPeople’s Learning We all know that the only way we will attract the jobs Agency, which is intended to support local authorities. I and businesses on which our country’s prosperity will hope that that agency will look at what Knowsley is depend is by showing investors that we have the skills doing and perhaps use it as a model for other areas. that they need, and that the only way businesses will be able to compete is with highly skilled workers who will I support the proposals to give all suitably qualified enable them to innovate more, exploit new technologies young people the right to an apprenticeship by 2013 and capitalise on new ways of working to boost productivity, and to give a more general right to workers to ask for open up new markets and win new customers. We all time off to train. How such measures are implemented know that if we do not adopt that approach, we will be will be crucial to their success. As well as the right to an much more vulnerable to competition from the countries apprenticeship, it is vital that such opportunities are and economies that do. relevant and well-matched. Again, the lesson from Knowsley is that that can be achieved through effective partnership If anyone needs convincing about that, they should working across all the parties concerned. remember the two most important facts from Lord I started by saying that I have reason to be grateful Leitch’s report on skills: seven out of 10 people who will for the older version of the apprenticeship scheme, and make up the work force in 2020 have already left school, I do. I hope that future generations of former apprentices and, by then, there will be only 600,000 jobs that require will be able to stand in the House in 20 or 30 years’ time no qualifications, compared with 3.5 million before the and say how grateful they are for the apprenticeship recession. that they had. Therefore, it is crucial that my Department and other Departments work closely with employers to ensure 4.47 pm that Britain has a work force with the skills and capabilities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for to meet our future challenges. Through our ongoing Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It relationship with the Local Government Association, is a great pleasure to take part in this debate under your we have demonstrated to local government that it is chairmanship, Lady Winterton. I congratulate my right vital in promoting and delivering more apprenticeships. hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and The public sector and, within that, local authorities, Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) on securing the debate, and have a crucial role to play. As an employer, the public thank him for all the work that he does, for his dedication sector supports around one in five of the work force. It and for the way he has spoken this afternoon. I think is important, when everyone is facing the challenges of that we agree that this is the most important cause of the recession, that we support people with jobs, skills, all—enabling young people to fulfil their potential and and training. be given the skills that they need to climb as high as At least 21,000 of the extra 35,000 apprenticeship their hard work and talents will take them. I congratulate places that we have announced will come from the him on showing such keen interest in apprenticeships public sector. We are doing that because apprenticeships and in local government. are a key route to building the national skills base and, During his membership of this House, my right hon. at a time of economic downturn, it is vital that we Friend has made himself an expert on skills and training, continue to invest in people and their skills for the as befits a former teacher and someone who served an longer term. Apprenticeships offer employers important apprenticeship early in his career. His enthusiasm for a benefits, as my right hon. Friend said. Investing in a discussion about the role of local authorities in promoting work force who have the right skills and experience to apprenticeships provides a welcome opportunity to consider help a business develop and grow is an investment for the good work and progress that councils around the employers as well, as they are less reliant on buying in country are making and the work that is being done by temporary support. various Departments. I join him in paying tribute to the To help to increase the number of employers offering superb work of Knowsley council in introducing apprenticeships, the Government have worked alongside apprenticeships and expanding opportunities for young local authorities and businesses. Our investment of £1 billion people in its area. I shall return to that issue later. supports apprentices in all sectors. It enables young 141WH Apprenticeships15 JULY 2009 Apprenticeships 142WH people in particular to increase their earning potential. developing partnerships and working with businesses, An apprentice obtaining a level 2 qualification will go local education bodies and employment partners such on to earn around £65,000 more over their lifetime than as Jobcentre Plus, Knowlsey is helping to generate those who have not trained, and individuals with an employment, as my right hon. Friend said. advanced apprenticeship will go on to earn, on average, We want similar work elsewhere in the public sector. £100,000 more. In the pre-Budget report, we committed to using the To ensure that more young people can access these Government’s buying power to promote apprenticeships. opportunities, we are introducing legislation in the In letting contracts for construction projects, Government Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill which, Departments and their agencies will now for the first for the first time, will put the apprenticeship programme time consider making it a requirement that successful on a statutory basis with other qualifications, as my contractors involved in public sector delivery have right hon. Friend indicated. apprentices as an identified proportion of their work It is important that a place on an apprenticeship force. programme is available to all young people who are Extending the principle beyond central Government, suitably prepared and qualified for the programme by the then Secretaries of State for the Departments for 2013. As we make apprenticeships a mainstream option Innovation, Universities and Skills and for Communities available to all 16 to 18-year-olds, we will invest in and Local Government wrote to local authorities on training for older learners as well. 2 June to encourage councils and public sector employers As my right hon. Friend set out so well, local authorities to promote skills and apprenticeships through the £42 billion have a vital role to play in promoting apprenticeships in a year that they invest. Not only are we putting in place their communities and among local employers. I am procedures to use the central Government procurement happy to give him the assurances that he sought. I shall process to encourage companies, including small and ensure that we write to him with more details about the medium-sized enterprises, with access to Government- monitoring arrangements and the encouragement that funded contracts to offer apprenticeships, but we are is being given to local authorities to promote and working effectively with local authorities to support deliver apprenticeships in their area. I can tell him that them in using their spending power to increase opportunities there is considerable support and enthusiasm from local for apprenticeships. In the guidance, “Promoting skills government for working with businesses in the local through public procurement”, which was published by economy to generate new apprenticeships, but also, as the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and employers themselves, for creating apprenticeships in the Office of Government Commerce in April, we have the delivery of local public services. The LGA set out how skills and training requirements can be has announced a challenging ambition to increase legally embedded across all stages of the procurement apprenticeships in councils from 7,500 to 15,000 to help process, from identification of need through to the way to deliver the target of an additional 21,000 apprenticeships in which contracts are managed. We are now working in the public sector. with local authorities to raise awareness, spread good I join my right hon. Friend in paying a particular practice and identify areas where there is scope for local tribute to the work of Knowsley council, and I thank authorities to do more. him for everything that he has done to support it. He We want local authorities, with the assistance of spoke in detail about what Knowsley has been doing, regional development agencies, sub-regional partnerships but, on behalf of the Government, I would like to place and regional improvement and efficiency partnerships, on the record our admiration for everything that it has to respond to the challenge set by the “New Opportunities: achieved. As he said, its innovative and pioneering Fair chances for the future” White Paper and by the programme has secured employment and training Houghton review to embed skills development and opportunities for more than 100 of Knowsley’s young apprenticeships at a local level. To that end, we are people, and at a great pace. It is the first programme of encouraging local authorities and city regions to make its kind in the area, and a great example of how local their own commitments on skills through public authorities are working to support the Government’s procurement, which will help them to deliver their local agenda to increase apprenticeships and skills in authority agreement and multi-area agreement. communities. The council leader, Ron Round, whose Apparently I have been appointed the new champion vision it was to recruit 100 apprentices with local employers for apprenticeships in the DCLG. I take a keen interest in less than 100 days, has set a benchmark for Knowlsey’s in ensuring that we promote the benefits of apprenticeships work and an example for other local authorities to to local authorities and to the communities that they follow. I am confident in saying that none of that would serve. We are committed to supporting around a dozen have happened if it had not been for the support of my apprentices within our own departmental work force. I right hon. Friend. am also keen to develop new ways that my Department, I was also pleased to learn from the new National working closely with the LGA, can encourage and Apprenticeship Service that in the Knowsley and Sefton support local government in helping to get more people areas more than 2,000 active apprentices are currently into apprenticeships. We will work with local authorities developing key skills in sectors such as construction, to ensure that there are linkages between LAA and business administration, hairdressing and customer services. MAA targets, that we engage young people who are Again, I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for working currently not in employment, education or training, with employers in his area to encourage them to take up and that apprenticeships are fully understood and taken and provide apprenticeship places for local young people. up by them. By providing key links with local businesses, Knowlsey We will also use our relationship with our agencies council is creating opportunities to employ some of the and delivery partners to promote apprenticeships. The brightest and best young people in the borough, and by Homes and Communities Agency, for example, has 143WH Apprenticeships15 JULY 2009 Apprenticeships 144WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] in that regard, because it is investing £1.5 million of its working neighbourhood funding in supporting employers. given a commitment that all construction work procured Despite the progress, we recognise there is more to by Government Departments and their agencies should, do. With the National Apprenticeship Service operational where feasible, include a requirement for successful since April, we are beginning to deliver tailored support contractors to have apprentices as an identified proportion and services to employers and local authorities across of their work force. That commitment is a high priority the regions. New technology, such as the National for the HCA, given the current economic climate, the Apprenticeship Service’s online vacancy matching service, high levels of unemployment of young people and the is increasingly making it easier to recruit people into need for a skilled work force to sustain the required apprenticeships. By working in partnership with local number of housing developments. businesses, local authorities will continue, as in the Economic downturns have historically been particularly example of Knowsley, to turn ambitions for more severe on industries such as construction, but through apprentices into real opportunities for local people. our pledge to increase social housing, we have increased In conclusion, I hope that my right hon. Friend the opportunity to invest in construction apprenticeships. agrees that the Government have done a huge amount We would like more councils to follow the example of to promote apprenticeships and to recognise the vital the award-winning partnership between Sheffield city role that local government has to develop them still council and the Kier Group, which has generated more further. I hope that I have demonstrated the Government’s than 1,000 employment and training opportunities since belief that the role of local authorities is crucial in 2003. We would like more councils to contribute to improving the skills of the communities that they serve. developing those relevant and vital skills. To assist them We have already provided local authorities with greater in retaining and investing in the sector, ConstructionSkills financial support, a clear ambition and a compelling is helping to match displaced apprentices to employers. vision; we have established the National Apprenticeship More than 700 apprentices have been retained in the Service to help people through these difficult economic sector and are continuing to develop their skills. times; and we will do all that we can through our own Across the English regions, we have made up to recruitment and procurement programmes to provide £185 million available to RIEPs to work with local people with the skills and opportunities to come through authorities and strategic partners in each region to the recession stronger. We are doing all that because we support improvement and efficiency in the delivery of know how important driving up skills and knowledge services. In the case of Capital Ambition and the London- and boosting innovation and productivity are for individual based RIEPs, for example, we are supporting boroughs people, the communities they live in and for our economy to increase the number of apprentices directly employed as a whole. These are great challenges, but the prize of by them. Apprenticeships or other youth training schemes transforming our economy by using those skills to are now running in 95 per cent. of London boroughs. make companies more successful and to bring new Therefore, not only is there now an increase in the businesses to places such as Knowsley, creating new proportion of young people working in London local jobs and generating more wealth and prosperity, is authorities, but there is an increase in those people’s greater still. career opportunities and the authorities are contributing Question put and agreed to. to the achievement of their targets. The working neighbourhood fund is also making a contribution in helping to build capacity to deliver 5.2 pm more apprenticeships. Knowsley council is a prime example Sitting adjourned. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

barriers to market or other obstacles are blocking the Written Ministerial development of Britain’s full potential in these areas, it sets out the Government’s strategy for removing them. Statements This includes the first investments from the £405 million for low carbon industries and advanced green manufacturing announced at Budget 2009. Key Wednesday 15 July 2009 announcements include: Up to £120 million to support the development of a British based offshore wind industry. Up to £60 million to capitalise on Britain’s wave and tidal BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS sector strengths, including investment in wave hub—the development of a significant demonstration and testing facility off the Cornish coast—and other funding to make the south west Britain’s first low carbon economic area. UK Low Carbon Industrial Strategy The Government will provide capital investment in order to establish a nuclear advanced manufacturing research centre consisting of a consortium of manufacturers from the UK nuclear supply The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat chain and universities. McFadden): The Department for Business, Innovation Up to £10 million for the accelerated deployment of electric and Skills, together with the Department for Energy vehicle charging infrastructure. and Climate Change, is today publishing the “The UK A £4 million expansion of the manufacturing advisory service, Low Carbon Industrial Strategy”. to provide more specialist advice to manufacturers on competing for low carbon opportunities, including support for suppliers for In parallel to this document, the Government are the civil nuclear industry. also publishing “The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan”, “The UK Renewable Energy Strategy” and “The Carbon The strategy recognises that we need to build on local Reduction Strategy for Transport”. and regional strengths in order to make the most of the future economic benefits for Britain. For this reason, Together these set out the policies which will help the strategy introduces the concept of low carbon economic drive the transition to decarbonising our economy, and areas, and announces the development of the first of reflect how Departments across Government are working these, located in the south-west of England, focusing on together to deliver the transition to a low carbon future. the development of marine energy demonstration, servicing The core objective of “The UK Low Carbon Industrial and manufacture. Strategy” is to ensure that British businesses and workers It also announces the creation of the cross-Whitehall are equipped to maximise the economic opportunities office for low emission vehicles (OLEV) to create a and minimise the costs of the transition to a low carbon single body charged solely with making a success of the economy. Government’s strategy for low emission vehicles. Building on the framework for supporting British Finally, the low carbon industrial strategy recognises business set out in “Building Britain’s Future: New that this transition raises significant challenges for our Industry, New Jobs”, its ambition is to ensure that the industrial work force and their families. As with previous transition to low carbon is a source of quality jobs and structural changes to the economy, the move to a low business savings in Britain from our rapidly developing carbon economy will affect each business, worker and civil nuclear industry and renewable energy sector, to family differently. Previous economic structural shifts energy saving in our smallest SMEs. have had huge social impacts, with some workers and British firms will benefit from the low carbon transition communities being left behind as industries are restructured both by catering to growing British and global markets by change. The Government are committed to doing all for low carbon goods and services, and also by using they can to ensure this is a just transition. energy and other resources more efficiently to reduce For this reason, the Government will create a forum costs. for considering these issues and advising Government. At the heart of the strategy are three basic principles The new forum for a just transition will include for a positive environment for low carbon business: representatives from central Government, national, local First, a long term strategic approach from Government—like and regional bodies, trade unions, business organisations, the clear commitment we have made to nuclear and renewable and third sector bodies. energy, which will allow businesses to invest in greater confidence; I am placing a copy of the strategy in the Libraries of Secondly, a pragmatic recognition that intervention from both Houses. Government may be required in some areas to accelerate and enable the transition to low carbon—in the case of the low carbon industrial strategy this means support for the research and development that will produce new low carbon technologies; CABINET OFFICE Finally, a recognition that Government have a responsibility to ensure that British-based companies and people are equipped to compete for the new demand created by Government climate Social Investment Wholesale bank Consultation change policies. This has implications for our skills policy, and the way we support the development of supply chains in this country, both issues addressed in this strategy. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith): The strategy identifies a range of low carbon sectors The Office of the Third Sector has today published a in which the Government believe that the UK has Social Investment Wholesale Bank Consultation which potential for job creation and business savings. Where sets out the vision and the economic case, and consults 17WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS on proposals for the design and functions of a potential the potential tax due on unrecognised profits in a bank. This consultation was announced in Budget 2009 non-profit fund will be determined by reference to the and will inform substantive proposals to be developed appropriate mix of business in 2009. The tax will become by the Office of the Third Sector. due and will be collected as and when profits are recognised Government recognise the important role played by and made available to shareholders. After 2009, profits the third sector including social enterprises—as sustainable of non-profit business will be taxed as they arise. businesses with a social or environmental mission they The objective of the consultation is to allow the new contribute significantly to stronger local economies and legislation to be properly targeted. If companies attempt a fairer society. Yet access to appropriate funding and to manipulate their business mix in advance of the new finance is often the biggest concern facing organisations legislation being finalised, for the purposes of avoiding driven by social or environmental purpose. A Social tax, the Government will consider whether it is necessary Investment Wholesale Bank could enable third sector to introduce retrospective legislation to remove the benefit organisations to access the finance they need to grow of that manipulation. and become more sustainable. More broadly, the bank could help increase investment in society, the environment and the economy at the UK’s Asset Freezing Regime (April to June 2009) same time, delivering against a “triple bottom line” of more effective interaction between greater economic growth, social cohesion and sustainable development. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah The Social Investment Wholesale Bank Consultation McCarthy-Fry): In a written ministerial statement on document can be downloaded from the Office of the Third 10 October 2006, the then Economic Secretary, my Sector (OTS) website at: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Ed Balls), third_sector.aspx. Copies have also been placed in the undertook to report to Parliament on a quarterly basis Libraries of both Houses. on the operation of the UK’s counter-terrorism asset- freezing regime. This is the 11th of these reports and covers the period April to June 20091. Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2009 TREASURY The Treasury has amended the Terrorism (United Measures) Order and a new Order in Council is being laid before Parliament today. I have made a separate Life Assurance Company Taxation written ministerial statement about the new order. Asset-freezing designations The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah In the quarter April to June 2009, the Treasury gave McCarthy-Fry): Life assurance companies are in general no directions under the Al-Qaida and Taliban (United taxed on profits as they are recognised and made available Nations Measures) Order 2006. to shareholders. The tax system recognises that, for The Treasury gave no new directions under the Terrorism with-profits business, profits on income and gains sometimes (United Nations Measures) Order 2006. The Treasury have to be held back to achieve the smoothing of revoked one direction given under this order during this returns that is an integral part of the business. This period. treatment can also apply where a company writes business There were no financial sanctions designations made in a non-profit fund. at the UN, or at the EU, in relation to terrorism, When profits are held back in this way there is an or Al-Qaida and the Taliban of persons with links to Exchequer cost, but this is largely a matter of timing, in the UK. that tax should be paid when the deferred profits are As of 30 June 2009, a total of 237 accounts containing recognised and made available to shareholders. just over £607,6612 of suspected terrorist funds were Recently however HMRC has seen an example of frozen in the UK. manipulation of this tax treatment in relation to a Reviews non-profit fund. The manipulation is to change the mix of the non-profit business for tax purposes so that when The Treasury keeps domestic asset-freezing cases under the previously unrecognised profits of the non-profit review and completed three formal reviews in this quarter. fund are recognised they escape tax altogether. Many Licensing hundreds of millions of pounds of tax have been avoided In accordance with UN Security Council Resolution in this way. 1452 (2002), the Treasury operates a licensing system The Government will introduce legislation to prevent whereby designated persons and others are able to such manipulation in future. Companies will not be able apply to make or receive payments under specific and, if to change the mix of business in their non-profit funds necessary, monitored conditions. In this quarter, the in order to reduce the incidence of tax on their profits following licences were issued to listed persons: that have not yet been recognised. The Government Four listed persons were granted basic expenses licences (including also propose that in the future profits of non-profit licences for benefits payments); business will be taxed as they arise. one listed person was granted a licence allowing them to In order to ensure the new legislation is appropriately receive compensation payment into a frozen account following targeted HMRC will consult with the life assurance an European Court of Human Rights judgement; industry. The precise nature of the new legislation will no persons were granted legal expenses licences; emerge from that consultation, but the intention is that no licences were granted for extraordinary expenses. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

In this quarter two households of listed persons were The main changes set out in the new Order in Council granted benefits licences. are: 1 The detail that can be provided to the House on a quarterly basis Formally reflecting the Court of Appeal judgment in October is subject to the need to avoid the identification, directly or last year which struck out the grounds for the Treasury to indirectly, of personal or operationally sensitive information. designate a person when the Treasury has reasonable grounds 2 This figure reflects account balances at time of freezing and to suspect that they may be (as opposed to are) involved in includes approximately $58,000 of suspected terrorist funds frozen terrorism. in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates as of The introduction of a further safeguard that designations must 08-07-09. Future fluctuations in the exchange rate may impact on be necessary for public protection. the contribution this sum makes to future totals of suspected Setting a renewable 12-month time limit on designations. terrorist funds frozen. Modifying the prohibitions on making funds, economic resources and financial services available for the benefit of a designation Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2009 person so that they only apply if the designated person obtains, or is able to obtain, a significant financial benefit. The prohibitions on making funds, economic resources and financial available The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah directly to a designated person remain unchanged and are a blanket prohibition. McCarthy-Fry): The Government are strongly committed to tackling terrorist finance. Just as there should be no Modifying the prohibition on making economic resources available to a designated person by providing a defence for a hiding place for those who perpetrate terrorism, so person if they did not know and had no reasonable cause to there should be no hiding place for those who finance suspect that economic resources which they provided to a terrorism. designated person would be likely to be exchanged or used in Global measures to freeze the assets of those suspected exchange for funds, goods or services. of involvement in terrorism are an important tool in Modifying reporting provisions to bring obligations on money suppressing terrorist finance. The global framework for service businesses into line with other financial institutions. freezing terrorist assets was established by United Nations Clarifying and expanding information gathering powers to Security Council Resolution 1373, adopted unanimously ensure that the Treasury is able to request information from on 28 September 2001. It is also set out in Special designated persons in all cases where this is necessary to ensure Recommendation III of the Financial Action Task effective implementation of and compliance with the asset Force, the international standard setting body for anti- freeze. money laundering and counter terrorist finance. Overall, these changes will improve the operation of The United Kingdom gives effect to its international the asset freezing regime, ensure that it remains fair and obligations to freeze terrorist assets through Orders in proportionate and help facilitate effective compliance Council under the United Nations Act 1946. The by ensuring that prohibitions are more tailored and Government report quarterly to Parliament on the clearer in how they apply. The Terrorism (United Nations operation of the UK’s terrorist asset freezing regime. Measures) Order will come into effect on 10 August 2009. Consistent with our international obligations, the Government have put in place a robust and effective terrorist asset freezing regime. As set out in today’s quarterly report to Parliament, as of the end of June CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES 2009, a total of 237 accounts containing £607,661 of suspected terrorist funds were frozen in the UK. As our quarterly reports set out, the UK has an active approach Schools Capital to reviewing cases and to granting exemptions licences to ensure that the asset freezing regime operates in a fair and proportionate way that is consistent with human The Minister for Schools and Learners (Mr. Vernon rights. Coaker): It has become apparent in recent months that The Financial Action Task Force reviewed the UK’s some local authorities are facing sudden and sharp terrorist asset freezing regime in 2007 and concluded increases in demand for primary pupil places. I am that the UK was fully compliant with international today announcing that £200 million of capital funding standards, the first country to be awarded the fully will be made available in the next financial year to compliant rating. authorities with exceptional need to assist them in The Government keep the asset freezing regime under building additional permanent primary school places review to ensure that it remains operationally effective, by September 2011. fair and proportionate. Today the Treasury is laying Detailed guidance on applying for this funding will before Parliament the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) shortly be made available by my Department. Local Order 2009. This Order in Council updates the UK’s authorities will have four weeks to apply and I aim to domestic framework for freezing the assets of suspected announce allocations in September. terrorists. This funding is in addition to the £1.75 billion of The overall objective of the changes is to tailor asset additional investment being made available through the freezing restrictions to ensure that the prohibitions are Primary Capital Programme over the next two years, focused more closely on areas of genuine operational which is supported by significant additional investment concern, in particular the access to, control and use of committed by local authorities. It is also in addition to funds by designated persons; and to strengthen and the £939 million of capital investment which has been make more explicit safeguards in how the regime is brought forward from 2010-11 to 2009-10 to accelerate operated where this can be done without compromising thousands of school modernisation projects across England its effectiveness. and support jobs and local businesses. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

I am also announcing today that the following six progress carefully as there could only be certainty on local authorities will enter the Building Schools for the final timings once we had made progress through the Future (BSF) programme this month: Barnet, Bolton, earlier stages. Hampshire, Peterborough, Sunderland and Wigan. Five Good progress is being made on the building of the of these authorities are new to BSF in line with our aim nine regional centres and the setting up of the local of getting all authorities into the programme as soon as authority controlled companies that will manage the is practicable. centres. The delivery and installation of equipment in These six authorities have now demonstrated satisfactorily local fire stations is also on track. However, in recent to Partnership for Schools (PfS) that they are fully months it has become clear that technical problems ready to start the full development of their projects. with developing the IT system in a way which will meet Another six local authority projects will join the programme all our and FRS requirements mean that further time is in three months time, with a further six three months needed to complete the project. after that. This rate of starts will maintain the current I am proposing therefore to extend the delivery schedule rate of delivery of BSF. by 10 months. This means that the first FRSs will switch This is a prudent and affordable rate of progress for over to the regional control centres in spring 2011 and our major strategic programme to renew our schools the last will switch over by the end of 2012. We have infrastructure, and which brings benefits for the wider discussed this in detail with the representatives of FRSs community as well as children. and local government, and we believe that this is a realistic timetable. Key Olympic authorities will switch over in time to prepare for the games, and the network will provide robust fall-back arrangements for all COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT FRSs over the Olympic period. I am today publishing a full revised schedule for switch over of all FRSs in all regions and copies will be placed in the Library of Fire and Resilience the House. To ensure consistent progress on this revised timescale, we have agreed with EADS, our main supplier, and with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for key stakeholders, a new approach to delivery to give Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): greater assurance on short-term milestones and closer I would like to inform the House about progress on the engagement with FRSs. FiReControl project—part of our major programme of We remain committed to meeting all the upfront work to ensure that the fire and rescue service is fully costs associated with the project and to the principle equipped to meet the challenges and demands of the that no FRA will bear any additional cost as a result of modern world. FiReControl implementation. Once the new network is Recent events, in both Camberwell and Edinburgh, established, many FRAs are expected to make savings. have reinforced the very real significance of doing all we These can be reinvested in local priorities and frontline can to ensure the safety of the public and firefighters. services. We will be updating the cost figures contained FiReControl will provide the public and firefighters in the FiReControl business case in due course to reflect with very substantial safety benefits by establishing, for today’s rescheduling. the first time, a linked national network of nine regional FiReControl continues to form an important part of fire control centres across England. These will replace the fire and resilience programme, which has already the current 46 stand-alone control rooms, operated in delivered very substantial benefits for the FRS. The new each fire and rescue authority (FRA) area. dimensions project has given the FRS new vehicles, On a day-to-day basis, the new system will improve equipment, and training to respond to terrorism and firefighter safety, the management of incidents and natural disasters. The Firelink project is delivering new both the efficiency and responsiveness of the service. digital communications technology, which is giving the Firefighters will have access to safety information and FRS access to a world class communications system. incident details through mobile data terminals, and FiReControl will build on this successful delivery. satellite navigation and automatic tracking of fire appliances will enable more efficient use of resources. Emergency calls from the public will be automatically located and managed using spatial data right down to property level. Control rooms will share calls across the network DEFENCE to manage even the highest call volumes and thereby be more resilient in emergencies. The new network will also improve the country’s ability to respond to terrorism, Afghanistan Troop Levels (Autumn 2009 Roulement) large-scale industrial accidents and natural disasters such as flooding. FiReControl is a complex and demanding project The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): that involves significant change to operating practices My right hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and in the Fire and Rescue Service (FRS) as well as the Furness (Mr. Hutton), announced in his statement to development and installation of a major new national the House on 29 April 2009, that Headquarters, 6 (UK) IT system. In November 2008 my predecessor informed Division would command the International Security the House that the project was being rescheduled due Assistance Force’s Regional Command (South) from to slower than expected progress with development of November 2009 to November 2010, Official Report, the new IT, and that we would continue to monitor column 46WS. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

The next routine roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, The Royal will take place in October 2009. The force package that Logistic Corps we plan to deploy will see the current lead brigade, Elements of 24 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal 19 Light Brigade, replaced by 11 Light Brigade which Logistic Corps will be committed to Afghanistan until April 2010. Elements of 27 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 29 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal The forces deploying include: Logistic Corps Elements of Headquarters Allied Rapid Reaction Corps Support Headquarters, 6 (UK) Division Battalion 11 Light Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (261) Elements of 6 Close Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Headquarters, 8 Force Engineer Brigade Mechanical Engineers Headquarters, 101 Logistic Brigade Elements of 7 Air Assault Battalion Royal Electrical Mechanical Elements of 845 Naval Air Squadron Engineers Elements of 846 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 102 Military Working Dog Support Unit Elements of 857 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Brigade Elements of Fleet Diving Unit III Elements of the Joint Civil Military Co-operation Group (CIMIC) The Household Cavalry Regiment Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Squadron 1st Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps 28 Engineer Regiment Elements of Joint Medical Command 1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards Elements of 253 Medical Regiment (Volunteers) 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment Elements of 254 Medical Regiment (Volunteers) 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh Elements of 205 Field Hospital (Volunteers) 3rd Battalion The Rifles Elements of 256 Field Hospital (Volunteers) Number 1 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters 10 Queen’s Own Ghurkha Logistic Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Number 2 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters 33 Field Hospital Number 3 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters 104 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Number 8 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters Engineers Elements of Number 3 Royal Air Force Police Wing 160 Provost Company Royal Military Police 2 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 1 st Royal Tank Regiment 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 2nd Royal Tank Regiment Elements of 3 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 34 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 12th Regiment Royal Artillery 9 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery 31 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 19th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 12 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 14 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 39 Engineer Regiment (Air Support) Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographic) Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 101 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force (Volunteers) Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group Elements of 617 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 2 (National Communications) Signal Brigade Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force Elements of 1st (United Kingdom) Armoured Division Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force Headquarters & Signal Regiment Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force Elements of 7th Signal Regiment Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force Elements of 10th Signal Regiment Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 14th Signals Regiment (Electronic Warfare) Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron Elements of 1st Battalion The Coldstream Guards Elements of Tactical Medical Wing Elements of The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron Elements of 4th Battalion The Lancashire Regiment Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing Elements of 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment Elements of 2nd Battalion The Royal Welsh Volunteer and regular members of the reserve forces Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part of our Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment integrated force package, and we expect to issue around Elements of 4th Battalion The Rifles 710 call-out notices to fill some 650 posts. On completion Elements of 1 Regiment, Army Air Corps of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists will undertake Elements of 3 Regiment, Army Air Corps a period of training and, where applicable, integration Elements of 4 Regiment, Army Air Corps with their respective receiving units. The majority will Elements of 9 Regiment, Army Air Corps serve on operations for six or so months. As part of this commitment, we expect up to 21 members of the sponsored Elements of 9 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps reserves to be in theatre at any one time. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

I shall make a further statement on the units we camp and British Army hospital and no third party expect to commit under 11 Light Brigade’s planned nationals were involved in his death. It has already been replacement formation, 4 Mechanized Brigade, nearer agreed that a new inquest should be held into the cause the time of their deployment. of Private Smith’s death which will be fully compliant with article 2 of the European convention on human rights. Jason Smith’s death remains the source of great Military Low Flying regret, and the MOD will continue to offer its wholehearted support to the coronial process, and every possible sympathy and attention to Mrs. Smith. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Kevan Jones): The amount of low flying training But the case as it has developed has raised issues of carried out in the UK Low Flying System (UKLFS) potentially very wide legal significance. These concern during the training year 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 the extent to which actions under the Human Rights was the minimum required for aircrew to reach and Act 1998 (which gave further effect to rights drawn maintain their ability to fly at low level. The number of from the European convention on human rights) can be low flying training hours conducted was 51,888 hours, a brought in cases involving military personnel deployed reduction of 1,263 hours on the previous training year. on operations outside the United Kingdom. Given the This level of activity has been relatively constant over importance of the issues raised by the Court of Appeal’s the last three years. The amount of operational low judgment to how we plan and conduct military operations flying (between 250 feet and 100 feet) by fixed wing and to the men and women of the armed forces, I have aircraft has further reduced by 34 per cent. from the decided that the right course would be to appeal to the previous training year, and there has now been a reduction House of Lords in order to obtain as much clarity as of 64 per cent. over the last three years. possible on the legal framework applying to operations overseas. As at all stages of the case, the Government I have today placed in the Library of the House a will bear the costs of both sides in the litigation, whatever report giving a detailed account of the low flying training the outcome. that has taken place in the UK Low Flying System for the training year 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009. This year some changes have been made to the way in which the information in the report is presented; the HEALTH most significant of these is that the data on the amount of low flying for dedicated user areas, principally used for helicopter training, is now being presented on the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services same basis as that for the rest of the low flying system. Additional copies of “The Pattern of Military Low Flying Across the UK 2008-09” are available on request The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil from the following address: Hope): The Government have made two commitments Air Staff in recent years on the treatment of children and young Complaints & Enquiries Unit people aged under 18 years on adult psychiatric wards. I Ministry of Defence wish to report to the House on the progress made on these commitments. Level 5 Zone H Main Building The first commitment, made in November 2006, was Whitehall that within two years no child under the age of 16 would be treated on an adult psychiatric ward. London SW1A 2HB Alternatively it can be viewed on the MOD’s website: The second commitment is to commence section 31(3) www.mod.uk/aboutdefence/whatwedo/airsafetyand of the Mental Health Act 2007 in England by April aviation/lowflying 2010. This provision, which applies to voluntary (informal) patients as well as formal (detained under mental health legislation) patients, places a duty on hospital managers Judicial Review Appeal to ensure that patients aged under 18 are treated in an environment in hospital which is suitable having regard to their age (subject to their needs). The hospital manager The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): has to consult a person who appears to them to have This important case arose from the tragic death of knowledge or experience of cases involving patients Private Jason Smith from heatstroke in Iraq in 2003 and who have not attained the age of 18. was brought by Private Smith’s mother. The Court of Appeal gave its judgment for the respondent on 18 May In its 12th Biennial Report the Mental Health Act this year, while granting the Secretary of State permission Commission welcomed these commitments and commented to appeal to the House of Lords. that There is no longer any dispute over the question “the ending of admissions of children and adolescents to unsuitable which initiated the case. The MOD has previously accepted adult facilities is an ambitious undertaking”. that there are limited circumstances when armed forces In order to prepare for these two commitments personnel come within the UK’s jurisdiction for the £31 million capital was made available in 2007-08 to purposes of the European convention on human rights 17 projects specifically designed to eliminate the when they are deployed overseas. These include the inappropriate use of adult psychiatric wards by children circumstances of Private Jason Smith’s death, where and young people. I can report that five projects have Private Smith was at all times within a British Army been completed with further projects, which will provide 27WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

31 new beds, 35 refurbished beds, and 13 beds relocated 12.2 per cent. of bed days for under 18s were on adult to purpose-designed facilities, in various states of psychiatric wards whereas the figure for 2008-09 was completion. 8.1 per cent. I would like to congratulate strategic health authorities, commissioners, and providers on the In addition, the Department commissioned the National progress made. Mental Health Development Unit (NMHDU) to work on children and young people’s issues within the Mental The bed day figures for under 16s on adult psychiatric Health Act 2007 implementation programme. One of wards dropped to zero in Q3 2008-09 meeting the the main objectives of this work has been to support Government’s commitment. However, the latest quarterly local areas to prepare for section 31(3) of the Mental figures (January-March 2009) for bed days for under Health Act 2007. 18-year-olds receiving mental health treatment in England A number of products have been produced including: show three instances of under 16-year-olds having been treated on adult psychiatric wards, each for one day only. The Legal Aspects of the Care and Treatment of children and Young People with Mental Disorder : A Guide for It is not acceptable for young people to be put in this Professionals situation and those few areas where these latest cases have arisen must take action to prevent this happening A guide that describes the interaction between mental health again. In all these cases action has been taken to investigate legislation, the Mental Capacity Act, and children’s legislation the circumstances leading to an under 16-year-old being and which, for example, will assist adult mental health services placed on an adult psychiatric ward and to press those clinicians to understand the issues they should take into account when working with under 18s. responsible to put arrangements in place to ensure that in future similar situations are dealt with in line with the The Safe and Appropriate Care Standards for Young Government’s commitment. The appropriate place for People on Adult Wards vulnerable young children is in an environment which is Standards prepared by the Royal College of Psychiatrists designed for children and young people. In the case of Research and Training Unit, in conjunction with young service under 16s our view is that the appropriate place is a users, parents, Adult and Child and Adolescent Service providers CAMHS ward. and commissioners, which provides guidance to trusts on how to assess the safety, environment and treatment offered to To conclude, over the past five years the Government young people on adult wards. have been committed to improving access for children In Our Words DVD and young people with mental health problems in universal and specialist settings. What these incidents highlight A training aid which includes contributions from young people, are the need for continued efforts to improve access to their parents, mental health advocates and health professionals emergency and specialist age appropriate inpatient services on the treatment of young people with mental health problems. for under 18s which are close to young people’s homes, Working Together to Provide Age Appropriate Environments and services to maintain young people in the community for Mental Health Patients Aged under 18 when it is safe to do so, following the example in adult services of outreach and crisis teams. The Government Briefing to support adult mental health services (AHMS) and remain committed to developing mental health services child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) further. commissioners to work together to develop more effective services to maintain young people in the community when it is Bed days for under 18 year olds receiving mental safe to do so, and appropriate inpatient resources to meet their health treatment in England within the NHS. needs in a crisis or for medium to long-term treatment. The Age Appropriate Environment System Dynamic Planning 16 to 17-year-old Under 16- Tool on NHS year- old on Under 18- year- Adult NHS Adult A model aimed at CAMHS and AMHS commissioners, providers, old on NHS Psychiatric Psychiatric planners and analysts to enable them to devise and test plans Quarter CAMHS ward Ward Ward to improve services to meet the needs of under 18s with severe mental health problems is available to download for free. 2006-07 1 34,609 4,697 75 2 28,171 4,780 25 The Mental Health Act— essential information for Parents and Carers 3 34,430 4,679 38 4 39,409 4,511 53 NMHDU commissioned a leaflet for parents and carers from Rethink which has been distributed to CAMHS and AMHS 2007-08 1 38,359 3,954 81 and which is available to download for free. 2 37,935 3,893 112 3 41,184 4,255 49 Headspace Toolkit 4 40,072 4,926 133 The widely praised Advocacy in Somerset self advocacy toolkit 2008-09 1 37,003 4,019 16 has been updated, distributed to all CAMHS in-patient services and is available to download for free. 2 36,973 3,713 4 3 39,534 2,854 0 Additionally a series of training workshops aimed at 4 42,065 3,101 3* CAMHS staff have been provided across England. Note: The figures shown above include the latest revisions to past quarterly returns Year-on-year figures of bed days for under 18s show and therefore differ from those previously published. that consistent progress is being made. The number of *This figure does not include a case which has come to the Department’s attention in a whole life eating disorder unit and which was not reported to the bed days for under 16s and 16-17-year-olds on adult Department by formal channels. Action is being taken to ensure that eating psychiatric wards has significantly reduced. In 2006-07, disorder units abide by the Government’s commitment. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

HOME DEPARTMENT Legal Aid and Prisoners

Criminal Records Bureau (Annual Report) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Bridget Prentice): My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Lord Bach) has made the The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism following written ministerial statement. (Mr. David Hanson): I announce that copies of the The Legal Services Commission (LSC) will publish 2008-09 annual report and accounts for the Criminal today a response to its consultation, published in February Records Bureau have been laid before the House today. 2009, on prison law funding. The consultation focused Arrangements are now in hand for publication. on proposals to control the volume and cost of prison law cases and place funding on a sustainable basis for the future. Legal aid expenditure on prison law—which includes advice to prisoners on their treatment, discipline JUSTICE and sentence, and legal representation for parole hearings— has increased from £1 million in 2001-02 to nearly £22 million in 2008-09. Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of Following consultation, the LSC intends to implement Attorney and Public Guardian (Amendment) a range of measures from July 2010 to control any Regulations further increase in prison law costs. The proposals, which will bring prison law funding arrangements in line with many other areas of legal aid, are: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice A new fee scheme based on fixed and standard fees (amended (Bridget Prentice): I have today laid before Parliament in response to feedback from legal aid providers); the Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of A strengthened eligibility test, coupled with more clarity on Attorney and Public Guardian (Amendment) Regulations the cases the LSC will and will not expect to fund in future; 2009. and Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of A new quality requirement, based on 350 hours work annually, Attorney and Public Guardian Regulations 2007 (2007 to ensure providers have sufficient experience and expertise in Regulations), set out the prescribed instruments that prison law. must be used to create a lasting power of attorney In the light of consultation responses, the LSC has (LPA) for property and affairs or for personal welfare. decided to assess the impact of these steps before introducing additional controls on the volume of cases A consultation “Reviewing the Mental Capacity Act or piloting alternative means of delivering prison law 2005: forms, supervision and fees” ran from 23 October services, such as telephone advice. 2008 until 15 January 2009. The consultation included draft LPA forms and invited comments on the revisions. Copies of “Prison Law Funding: A Consultation Response” have been placed in the Libraries of both The forms underwent further revision to take on Houses. The document can be downloaded from the board comments received through consultation and consultation section of the LSC’s website at further user testing has been undertaken with stakeholders www.legalservices.gov.uk. and members of the public who had no prior knowledge of the forms. The amendments to the 2007 regulations replace existing prescribed forms for instruments intended to Inquests (Service Personnel) create a property and affairs LPA or a personal welfare LPA with new prescribed forms. The tiles of the new forms detour slightly from the terms used in the Mental The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Capacity Act 2005 and are purely for presentational (Bridget Prentice): My hon. Friend the Minister for the purposes. Property and affairs becomes property and Armed Forces and I wish to make the latest in the series financial affairs while personal welfare becomes health of quarterly statements to the House about the inquests and welfare. Respondents to the consultation were in of service personnel and others who have died overseas. favour of the changes as they felt that they are a better Our deepest condolences go, as ever, to the families of description of the two types of LPA’s. the service personnel who have lost their lives in the service of their country, and in particular to the 31 who It is intended that the new prescribed forms will be in have died since our last statement. place from 1 October 2009. All the families whose loved ones have made the The Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of ultimate sacrifice for their country, or who have otherwise Attorney and Public Guardian (Amendment) Regulations lost their lives in connection with the operations in Iraq 2009 provide transitional arrangements for the use of and Afghanistan, remain very much in our thoughts. the prescribed forms in the 2007 regulations provided Today, we are announcing the progress that has been the form is executed before 1 April 2011. made since the written ministerial statement on 5 May The Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of 2009, Official Report, column 7WS, with information Attorney and Public Guardian (Amendment) Regulations about the conduct of inquests by the Wiltshire and 2009 also make two minor changes to the 2007 regulations Swindon and other coroners. This statement gives the to correct errors. position at 6 July. 31WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

The tables which accompany this statement again iii. Inquests into the deaths of service personnel who include information about those cases which involve a returned home injured board of inquiry or a service inquiry. There remain six inquests to be held of service personnel Progress with inquests who returned home injured and subsequently died of At the time of the last statement, we reported that up their injuries. to 27 April 230 inquests had been held since June 2006: We shall continue to keep the House informed about 216 into the overseas deaths of service personnel and progress with the remaining inquests. I have placed 14 into the deaths of civilians in Iraq whose bodies were tables in the Library of the House which outline the repatriated via RAF Brize Norton or RAF Lyneham. status of all cases and the date of death in each case. Copies are also available in the Vote Office and the Since 27 April a further 11 inquests have been held Printed Paper Office. into the deaths of service personnel who died in operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. This makes a total of 241 inquests held since June 2006. Since operations commenced in 2001 there have been Office of the Public Guardian (Annual Report and a total of 265 inquests into the deaths of service personnel Accounts) who lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, including five service personnel who died in the UK of their injuries. In two further cases, no formal inquest was The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice held, but the deaths were taken into consideration during (Bridget Prentice): The “Office of the Public Guardian’s inquest proceedings for those who died in the same Annual Report and Accounts for 2008-09” has been incident. laid before Parliament today. This document gives full We remain deeply grateful for the efforts of all the details of the agency’s performance and expenditure for coroners who are involved in conducting these inquests, the 12 months from 1 April 2008, and includes the and totally committed in our support for the independent Public Guardian’s annual report to the Lord Chancellor coronial system. about the discharge of his functions pursuant to section 60 Our Departments continue to work closely together, of the Mental Capacity Act 2005. and with the coroners, to review the way in which the A revised version of the “Public Guardian Framework system is working and to look for opportunities, prior Document” has also been placed in the Libraries of to the implementation of the coroners’ legislation which both Houses to reflect recent changes to the governance is currently before Parliament in the Coroners and structure of the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG). Justice Bill, to make improvements for the benefit of the References to the OPG’s responsibility for the Court of bereaved families. Protection’s administrative functions have been removed, Open inquests reflecting the move of the Court of Protection from the Office of the Public Guardian to Her Majesty’s Court i Pre-31 March 2007 Fatalities Service on the 1 April 2009. The document now also The statement in May reported that there was one reflects the OPG’s new clearer governance arrangements. remaining inquest to be held into a death where the This now consists of two boards—the statutory Public body was repatriated via RAF Brize Norton prior to Guardian Board and the OPG’s Executive Board— 31 March 2007, into the death of Marine Wigley. That following the removal of the OPG Agency Board as a inquest has since been concluded and there are no third board in the previous structure. outstanding pre-March 31 2007 inquests in the Oxfordshire Copies of the “Office of the Public Guardian Framework coroner’s district Document” will also be available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office and from the website of the ii Post-1 April 2007 Fatalities OPG: www.publicguardian.gov.uk. Since October 2007, additional resources have been provided by the Government to ensure that a backlog of inquests does not build up in the Wiltshire and Swindon United Kingdom Supreme Court district (since 1 April 2007 fatalities have been repatriated via RAF Lyneham). The coroner transfers inquests for The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor service personnel to a coroner closer to the bereaved (Mr. Jack Straw): On 2 April 2009 I announced that the family, where possible. We are pleased that the district Middlesex Guildhall had been handed over to the Ministry continues to benefit from the experience and expertise of Justice. I am pleased to be able to report further of David Masters, who retired as coroner on 31 March, significant progress on the Supreme Court Implementation following his appointment as an assistant deputy coroner Programme—the programme remains on time and within by his successor, David Ridley. budget. There are 76 open inquests to be concluded into the First, I have received a written assurance from the deaths of service personnel who died in Iraq and noble and learned Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers Afghanistan whose bodies were repatriated after 1 April that the Law Lords are satisfied that the refurbished 2007 (36 involving deaths in the last six months). Of Middlesex Guildhall will meet the needs of the new these, Mr. Ridley has retained 41 inquests, while 35 inquests Supreme Court. The refurbishment has been completed are being conducted by coroners closer to the next of to the highest standards, respecting the heritage of this kin. At 6 July, two fatalities had been repatriated but unique building. This is consistent with both the status inquests were yet to be opened, and four recent fatalities of the court and the needs of the Supreme Court awaited repatriation. Hearing dates have been set in Justices, court users and the public for modern accessible 22 of these cases. facilities. On this basis I have now signed the commencement 33WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS order that will enable the court to come into being on 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 1 October 2009, as I am satisfied the court will be fully operational by that date. Surveyors 173 177 188 194 190 192 181 Lord Phillips has made the rules that will underpin Coastguard 537 515 531 545 534 532 501 the workings of the court and these have been laid Control Centre before Parliament. In making the rules, Lord Phillips Administrative 386 411 423 473 467 472 422 has taken into account his statutory duty to ensure that Human 47 55 50 57 58 58 54 the rules are both simple and simply expressed and that Resources they have a view to ensuring the court is accessible, fair Administrative staff includes, for example, Senior and efficient. The rules have been widely supported on Managers and Policy Leads as well as Administrators. consultation. In addition the responses to public consultation on the fees payable in the court have been analysed. A Low Carbon Transport: A Greener Future-Strategy summary of the responses to consultation and the Government’s proposed way forward have now been published. Consultees were in general agreement with The Minister of State, Department for Transport the course proposed, with the exception of fees for (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My right hon. and noble Friend the devolution cases. While consultees agreed that the fees Secretary of State for the Department for Transport for devolution cases should be brought into line with (Lord Adonis) has made the following ministerial statement. civil fees generally, they were concerned that to make I am announcing today the publication of “Low Carbon this change in one step represented too steep an Transport: A Greener Future” (Cm 7682)—a carbon reduction increase—we have therefore decided to implement this strategy for transport. A key component of the “UK Low change in stages. Carbon Transition Plan”, also published later today, this document sets out the actions we are taking to deliver reductions in The Fees Order for the court will be laid on this basis. transport emissions in line with our obligations under the I previously announced that the anticipated running UK’s carbon budgets to 2022. costs for the UK Supreme Court would be £12.3 million. It puts us on a path towards a low carbon transport system, At present Her Majesty’s Court Service pays £1.2 million giving people and business more low carbon choices about pension and national insurance contributions with respect when, where and how to travel or to transport goods. to the Law Lords. For transparency this will be transferred We have already begun—and will continue—a strong programme to the UK Supreme Court from 1 October. This does of activity to tackle the climate change impact of transport. not represent any additional cost to the public purse. In December 2008, we agreed a demanding framework with For the first year we have provided an additional £300,000 our European partners for reducing CO2 emissions from new cars. This alone is expected to save 7 million tonnes of CO in to cover transitional set-up costs, this is being met from 2 the UK in 2020. In January 2009, alongside our statement on within existing resources. The costs of some aspects of Britain’s transport infrastructure, we set a pioneering target to the court’s operation, including security, remain to be reduce CO2 emissions from UK aviation to below 2005 levels finalised and so the anticipated running costs will continue by 2050, in so doing, posing a challenge to the aviation to be refined and reviewed on an ongoing basis. industry to innovate and adopt better fuel efficiency. We have also made securing international agreement to reducing CO2 emissions from aviation and shipping a key priority for the UN NORTHERN IRELAND talks in Copenhagen at the end of this year. In April, we made clear our intent to create a flourishing Police Ombudsman (Annual Report and Accounts) market for ultra-low emissions vehicles in the UK for both consumers and industry. This will be achieved through a combination of support for research and development, and a The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun £250 million fund for consumer incentives and electric vehicle Woodward): The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland’s charging infrastructure. In May we announced that up to annual report and accounts for the year ended 31 March £29 million was available for large urban areas across England 2009 has been laid before the House today. to bid to become the country’s first sustainable travel city. In June and July, we announced a range of measures to promote new, greener technology on our roads. Up to 150 low TRANSPORT emission and all-electric vans will be introduced to public sector fleets; over 340 ultra-low emissions cars are to be demonstrated around the UK through a £25 million programme Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Correction) delivered by the Technology Strategy Board; and we launched a £30 million scheme to encourage uptake of low emission buses. And on top of our existing commitment of £140 million The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport to support cycling, to improve the integration of greener travel (Paul Clark): I regret to inform the House that the modes, we also announced plans to radically improve station answer I gave on 8 July to a parliamentary question, cycle storage at up to 10 major railway stations nationwide. Official Report, column 802W, about the breakdown of Alongside today’s document, we confirm our commitment to staff employed at the Maritime and Coastguard Agency working with our European partners to develop an ambitious (MCA) was incorrect. and realistic mechanism to reduce CO2 emissions from new The MCA has checked the figures and the answer vans. With the freight and logistics industry, we have also launched a working group to develop a consistent carbon should read: measurement and reporting method and standard for the The number of staff employed by the Maritime and logistics transport supply chain. Coastguard Agency (MCA), broken down into the Our efforts will not stop here. In the coming weeks we will categories asked, since 2002 is shown in the table below. emphasise the importance of addressing CO2 from transport The MCA’s systems only hold records back to 2002: in the guidance we give to our local and regional partners as 35WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

they begin to develop new local transport plans and longer-term before Parliament today, in accordance with paragraph 14 transport solutions. Finally, we are shortly to announce our of the schedule to the Renewable Transport Fuel plans for further electrification of the rail network. Obligations Order 2007. The annual report and accounts The measures set out in strategy will save an additional 85 million include the report of the Comptroller and Auditor tonnes of CO2 over the third carbon budget period from General. Copies of the report will be placed in the 2018-22. This strategy is a signal of our determination to build Libraries of both Houses. a low carbon future. Article 14 of the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations Renewable Fuels Agency (Annual Report and Accounts) Order requires a further annual report to be published by the end of January 2010, detailing the operation of the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations scheme in The Minister of State, Department for Transport the 2008-09 obligation period. That annual report will (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The Renewable Fuels Agency’s annual also be laid before Parliament after publication, as report and accounts for 2008-09 (HC 877) has been laid provided in the order.

5P Petitions15 JULY 2009 Petitions 6P

their SEN provision and have a duty to ensure that Petitions there is sufficient provision for children with SEN in their area and that it is provided in a cost effective way. Wednesday 15 July 2009 The Government would expect the local authority, in this case Manchester City Council, to think strategically about its provision and reorganisation, having analysed PRESENTED PETITION future requirements such as demographic changes to Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor ensure a better match between the need for places, parental preference and the supply of places, and to Post Office Closure (Kent) consider what provision would best deliver improved Declares that Sheerness main Post Office is providing outcomes for children. We would expect it to consult an inadequate service. widely on its proposals. The local authority should also comply with the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of guidance on “Planning and Developing Special Educational Commons urge the Government to instruct Post Office Needs Provision”. This requires that when considering Limited to re-open Queensway Post Office. any reorganisation of SEN provision local authorities And the Petitioners remain etc, will need to demonstrate to parents and the local community [P000397] how the proposed alternative arrangements are likely to lead to improvements in the standard, quality and/or range of educational provision for children with SEN. OBSERVATIONS It is for Manchester City Council to determine the precise nature of the communications and consultation with its partners. They must consult and inform all CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES interested partners and allow adequate time and provide Schools (Manchester) sufficient information for this process. Our advice to all local authorities is to start consulting early. All the The Petition of persons concerned at Manchester City normal processes associated with major changes to Council’s proposal to close Ewing School in Didsbury, schools still apply, including the requirement to produce Manchester statutory proposals where required. Declares that Manchester City Council is currently Manchester City Council has concluded the statutory considering proposals to close Ewing School in Didsbury, consultation stage on the future development of Ewing Manchester; notes that Ewing School is a specialist School. When the City Council’s Executive has considered school that teaches children with speech, language and the comments made during statutory consultation it will social communication disorders, from the ages of 5 to decide on how to proceed. If the chosen way forward 16 years; further notes that Ewing’s pupils are among requires publication of statutory notices the local authority the 1 per cent. of children with more severe and complex has provided assurances this will be done. speech, language and social communication needs; further Ewing School is a community special school and notes that many of the pupils have specific problems pupils placed at the school, other than those placed for with understanding and the use of the spoken word and assessment purposes, will have a statement of SEN. have further difficulties with social interaction; recognises Should Manchester LA take the decision to close the that Ewing School has a high teacher to pupil ratio, school then the LA responsible for maintaining each which enables the school to provide an intensive Teach child’s statement will be required to amend the statement and Learn environment. to change the name of the school named. The local Believes that Manchester City Council’s proposals to authority will be required to consult parents about an close Ewing School and relocate the pupils to mainstream amended statement and to ensure that any school named schools are misguided; further notes that many of Ewing’s can meet the needs of the child and put in place the pupils have previously been excluded from mainstream provision specified in the child’s statement. If parents schools; further believes that Ewing School offers a safe disagree with the school named in their child’s statement and secure learning environment that is more conducive they will have a right of appeal to the First-tier Tribunal to their pupils’ complex needs, which gives them the (Special Educational Needs and Disability). chance to achieve a high standard of education. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to do all in its power INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT to persuade Manchester City Council to rethink its plans to close Ewing School and to permit the school to HIV and the G8 remain open and free from the threat of closure. The Petition of members of City Gate Church, Brighton, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr. John Declares that almost every minute of every day a Leech, Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 137 .] baby is born with HIV, and that almost all of these babies are born in the world’s poorest countries; further [P000382] declares that nine out of ten of all new HIV infections Observations from the Secretary of State for Children, in children are as a direct result of mother to child Schools and Families: transmission; further declares that the impact of HIV The Government recognises that a decision on provision on infants is appalling and that without specialised for pupils with special educational needs (SEN) and any treatment half will not live to see their second birthday; school re-organisation is never an easy one. Local notes that in a number of countries, HIV and AIDs is Authorities are responsible for keeping under review the number one cause of death in under-five year olds. 7P Petitions15 JULY 2009 Petitions 8P

Further declares that in rich countries the transmission In Zambia DFID is providing £5.5 million to support of HIV from mothers to their babies has been virtually a multi-sectoral response to tackling HIV which includes eliminated due to the availability of health care and the support for PMTCT. And in Zimbabwe DFID is providing right drugs; notes, however, that in many low-income £25 million to support a programme which addresses countries pregnant women and their babies are not maternal and newborn health, including HIV. This receiving the same degree of care and protection; further and similar work supported by DFID in our focus notes that despite efforts to increase coverage of services Public Service Agreement (PSA) countries is achieving to prevent mother to child transmission of HIV, figures significant results. The estimated percentage of HIV from 2006 show that in low-income countries only one positive pregnant women who received ARVs for prevention in five pregnant women with HIV had access to the of mother to child transmission increased in many necessary antiretroviral drugs to protect their babies. African countries between 2004 and 2007, for example in Ghana from 1 per cent to 21 per cent., in Malawi Further notes that this shortfall is now attracting from 4 per cent. to 32 per cent. and in Uganda from global attention and that in 2007 leaders at the G8 9 per cent. to 34 per cent. Summit in Heiligendamm recognised the importance of preventing mother to child transmission of HIV and We are working with bilateral and multilateral partners promised 1.5 billion dollars to provide access to services to ensure that the Gleneagles G8 Summit commitment for all pregnant women; and believes that the UK has a to provide universal access to treatment, prevention and key role to play in turning this G8 commitment into care is implemented. This was reaffirmed by the G8 at reality. Heiligendamm in 2007 where commitments that will significantly assist in funding and developing national The Petitioners therefore request that the House of AIDS plans were made. This included the provision of Commons urges the Government to outline how it long-term predictable funding to the Global Fund to intends to contribute to G8 commitments on preventing fight AIDS, TB and Malaria. The UK has since committed mother to child transmission of HIV, and to encourage £1 billion to the Fund in support of countries’ other G8 countries to take similar action. comprehensive national plans to address the AIDS And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by David epidemic. We have been working to ensure that the G8 Lepper, Official Report, 18 May 2009; Vol. 492, Summit at L’Aquila delivers a much stronger framework c. 1315 .] for G8 countries to be held accountable for their commitments on global health, including HIV.Through [P000368] the High Level Task Force for Innovative International Observations from the Secretary of State for International Financing for Health Systems, which the Prime Minister Development: co-chairs, we are also leading efforts to secure additional resources to help countries build the stronger health I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that we systems required to make durable progress on maternal must continue to address the devastating impact that and newborn mortality, including through enhanced HIV is having on children in developing countries. The access to PMTCT services. latest Universal Access report1 shows encouraging trends in the expansion of Prevention of Mother to Child We provide core funding to UNICEF and other UN Transmission (PMTCT) services for women and children. agencies (WHO, UNAIDS) working to end mother to However, the world is still far from providing anti-retro child transmission of HIV. In addition to core funding, viral treatment (ARV) to 80 per cent. of HIV positive DFID has provided more than US$1.5 million to an pregnant women by 20102. By 2007 only 34 per cent. of “Accelerating Action for Children Affected by HIV and HIV positive pregnant women in low and middle income AIDS” programme. This gives focus to the “4 Ps - countries received treatment so much remains to be Protection, Prevention, PMTCT and Paediatric AIDS”. done. Working with others at national and international We are also participating in a US-led HIV and AIDS level, the UK is strongly committed to strengthening paediatric public-private partnership which seeks to efforts to scale up PMTCT services. develop formulations of HIV drugs suitable for children in developing countries, together with the pharmaceutical The petition rightly acknowledges that mother to industry. child transmission of HIV has been virtually eliminated in developed countries. This is because in these countries, More recently, DFID has become a member of the women of reproductive age have access to high quality Inter-agency Task Team on Prevention of Mother to family planning and maternity care services into which Child Transmission (co-convened by UNICEF and WHO). HIV prevention, treatment and care has been integrated. And on 21 May we held a consultation with UK DFID will continue to work to ensure that women in stakeholders in collaboration with the AIDS Consortium poor countries have the same choices and opportunities. to discuss ways to accelerate the scale-up of PMTCT Scaling up PMTCT services requires effective health services. systems. This is why DFID helps to prevent mother to Through our prominent position on the prevention child transmission of HIV through our support to of mother to child transmission of HIV in developing health systems’ strengthening. In June 2008 the UK countries and engagement in international fora, we will published a new AIDS Strategy which commits us to continue to show leadership and to advocate for joint spending £6 billion up to 2015 to support the strengthening action in this vital area. of health systems for improved health and HIV outcomes. The updated Strategy also commits the UK to work 1Progress towards Universal Access report, UNAIDS, WHO, with others to reduce the unmet need for family planning UNICEF, 2008. by 50 per cent. by 2010 and eliminate unmet need by 2This is the international target set by the United Nations General 2015. Assembly Special Session on AIDS in 2001. 9P Petitions15 JULY 2009 Petitions 10P

TREASURY The Treasury’s estimate of bingo’s effective tax rate before the Budget was 24-25 per cent., an estimate Taxation (Bingo Clubs) agreed with the industry. It is not the case that the The Petition of residents of Llanelli, “gaming industry average” effective tax rate is 15 per cent. Declares that the imposition of Gross Profits Tax of The effective tax rate on bingo, now at 22 per cent., is 22 per cent. on bingo clubs, compared with a gaming comparable to the average effective tax rates on gaming industry average of 15 per cent., is unreasonable and machines, casinos and the national lottery, all of which will be damaging to the continued viability of small are taxed within a 20-25 per cent. range. Before the bingo clubs, which play an important part as centres of Budget the effective tax rate on bingo was estimated at the community as well as places of entertainment. 24-25 per cent., which in turn was down from 35 per The Petitioners therefore request that the House of cent. as recently as 2003. Commons approves a Gross Profits Tax maximum rate The bingo industry will benefit from the increased of 15 per cent. for bingo clubs. allocation of category B3 gaming machines (machines And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Nia typically found in bingo halls that can offer up to a Griffith, Official Report, 30 June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 273 .] £500 prize) that a club may offer. The maximum allocation was increased from 4 to 8 in February 2009. The industry [P000386] will also benefit from social regulation changes recently Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer: implemented by the Department for Culture, Media The Government notes the petition, and makes the and Sport. The changes double the stake and prize following observations: limits for category C gaming machines, to £l/£70. Estimates The Government continues to recognise the important from BACTA, the amusement machine trade association, social role played by bingo clubs in many communities, suggest that gaming machine revenue could be boosted especially for pensioners and women. by as much as 20 per cent. following these changes. At Budget 2009 introduced a package of reforms intended Budget 2009 the Government amended the amusement to simplify the bingo tax regime, continuing a process of machine licence duty categories to realign with the new reform that began in 2003. Bingo participation fees regulations. became VAT exempt, and bingo duty was increased to The Government recognises the challenges faced by 22 per cent. The Bingo industry had been campaigning the bingo industry, including changing tastes and greater for some time for VAT exemption on bingo participation competition in the wider leisure sector. The Government fees, and the bingo duty increase should not be seen in will continue to engage with the bingo industry about isolation. the state of the sector and the impact of taxation.

377W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 378W Written Answers to Armed Forces: Training Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Questions how many airborne jumps armed forces personnel undertook for training purposes from civilian aircraft in each of the last five years. [284535] Wednesday 15 July 2009 Bill Rammell: The total number of annual parachute descents by entitled service personnel conducted between DEFENCE 2004 and 2008 from civilian aircraft is provided in the following table. This includes displays conducted by the Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations RAF Falcon display team, whose descents cannot be broken out from the totals. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many soldiers of (a) the Welsh Guards Descents from civilian aircraft and (b) the Royal Welsh Regiment are deployed in 2004 5,610 Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [286101] 2005 3,462 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The deployment of the 1st Battalion 2006 2,139 Welsh Guards and elements of the 2nd Battalion The 2007 203 Royal Welsh to Afghanistan was announced by the then 2008 3,470 Secretary of State for Defence on 16 December 2008. Civilian aircraft make a valuable and cost-effective The number of personnel in units may fluctuate contribution to parachute training particularly when significantly on a daily basis for a variety of reasons, military aircraft are deployed on other high priority including mid-tour rest and recuperation, temporary military tasks. The relatively small number of descents absence for training, evacuation for medical reasons, made in 2007 is due to an increased availability of and visits. Units often contain individual augmentees military aircraft in that year. from other units and services, and additional members from the Welsh Guards and the Royal Welsh Regiment Ascension Island may be augmenting other units. These data are not collated centrally and the information requested could be provided only at disproportionate Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for cost. Defence pursuant to the answer of 1 June 2009, Official Report, column 18W, on Ascension Island, when he Armed Forces: Mental Health plans to write to the hon. Member for North East Milton Keynes in response to his query. [283752] Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many members of the armed forces have Bill Rammell [holding answer 2 July 2009]: The decision resumed (a) front line service and (b) civilian military by the Ascension Island Government to remove a variation support duties after being diagnosed with a mental in the Ministry of Defence’s annual property tax liability, health condition in each year since 1997. [283312] which had the effect of almost doubling the amount, is currently being disputed. The MOD, therefore, has not Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD’s Defence Analytical paid this new tax liability in full. Urgent discussions are Services and Advice (DASA) organisation has since taking place between the MOD and the Foreign and July 2007 reported on the Psychiatric Morbidity of the Commonwealth Office about the amount of property UK Armed Forces, and quarterly Reports for the whole tax owed. We are seeking an agreement that is fair and of 2007 and 2008 are now available both in the Library equitable, and assurance that the services received in of the House and on the DASA website at: return from the Ascension Island Government represent www.dasa.mod.uk best value for money. I will inform the House once these Equivalent verified data prior to 2007 are not available discussions are complete. and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The figures show that, of the 10,103 personnel who Departmental Accountancy attended a MOD Department of Community Mental Health (DCMH) for the first time during this two-year Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence period, 7,101 were assessed as having a mental health when he expects to publish his Department’s resource disorder of some sort. These included a wide range accounts for 2008-09. [287337] and severity of neurotic and mood disorders; only 335 were given an initial diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Department’s resource accounts Disorder (PTSD). for 2008-09 are expected to be laid before the House by While records are not collated centrally as to how the summer recess. many of these return specifically to the frontline or to other service duties, overall only around 200 personnel Departmental Information Officers are discharged each year where mental and behavioural disorders are the principal disability. This demonstrates Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence that if personnel do come forward for mental health what the cost to his Department of (a) press officers assessment and treatment, the vast majority can be and (b) other press office staff has been in each year treated and remain in service. since 1997. [283064] 379W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 380W

Mr. Kevan Jones: Currently, there are 110 press officers Mr. Kevan Jones: I replied to my hon. Friend on employed across the Department, as recorded in the 9 July 2009, Official Report, column 943W. Central Office of Information’s White Book, of which 35 are within the central MOD Media and Communications unit or Regional Defence Press Officer Network. Additionally, there are five press office support staff. SCOTLAND The total includes civilian and military staff working across the Department (including within single services) Conditions of Employment and are defined as those who directly interface with national or regional media on news issues, and in direct Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State support of operations. for Scotland what percentage of employees in his The cost for the 35 press officers and five support Department (a) are on a flexible working contract, (b) staff employed by the central organisation based on are on a job share employment contract and (c) work capitation rates for 2009-10 is approximately £2.2 million, from home for more than four hours a week. [287091] which includes some £115,000 for the press office support staff. Ann McKechin: All staff in the Scotland Office are on Press officer costs in other areas of the Department secondment from the Scottish Executive or the Ministry and historical records, since 1997, are not held centrally of Justice. Any member of staff can request a change to and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. their working pattern and line managers consider requests in line with the policy and guidance of the parent Department. Operation Herrick 10: Operation Herrick 9 Staff below the senior civil service (92 per cent.) can work to a flexi-time agreement and local records are Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence kept of hours worked; 4 per cent. of all staff work how many UK military personnel have lost limbs in the part-time; and 4 per cent. work compressed hours. No course of (a) Operation Herrick 10 and (b) Operation staff work on job-share or work from home for more Herrick 9. [286974] than four hours per week.

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Fifteen surviving casualties from Departmental Accountancy roulement 9 of Op. Herrick, between 15 October 2008 and 14 April 2009, sustained a traumatic or surgical Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland amputation ranging from the loss of part of a finger or when he expects to publish his Department’s resource toe up to the loss of an entire limb or limbs. accounts for 2008-09. [287342] Initial figures for roulement 10, will be reported following the end of the roulement period. Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office does not produce These figures include those who have had a surgical its own set of resource accounts, the Office’s figures are amputation performed either at military field hospitals included within the resource accounts of the Ministry or in hospital in the UK. These figures may be amended of Justice. as records are updated. Departmental Buildings Tornado Aircraft Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what the floor area is of each of the premises occupied Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence by his Department. [284860] how many flying hours were completed by Tornado aircraft in each of the last 10 years. [284991] Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office occupies premises at Dover House, London and Melville Crescent, Edinburgh. Bill Rammell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer my Both buildings provide non standard office accommodation predecessor gave on 14 May 2009, Official Report, and have listed building status, they provide both office column 14-16MC, to the hon. Member for Woodspring space as well as accommodation that can be doubled up (Dr. Fox) which provides the actual flying hours completed for hosting events. The office occupies a floor area of by Tornado aircraft from 2001-02 until 2007-08. 927.5m2 in Dover House and 694m2 in Melville Crescent. Information prior to 2001-02 is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The Departmental Data Protection actual flying hours completed for 2008-09 are: Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Aircraft Actual hours flown Scotland how many (a) attempts and (b) successful Tornado F3 7,460 attempts were made to gain unauthorised access to Tornado GR4 22,248 each (i) database and (ii) ICT system run by his Department in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [286541] Written Questions: Government Responses Ann McKechin: It is not in the interests of the UK’s Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence national security for departments to confirm information when he plans to answer question 279511, on Demos, on the number of attempts, successful or otherwise, to tabled on 11 June 2009. [285877] gain unauthorised access to departmental systems or 381W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 382W databases. Such disclosure could undermine the integrity TRANSPORT and security of departmental systems and thereby expose them to potential threats. Air Misses The Scotland Office shares an information technology system with the Scottish Executive, which is responsible for the development, administration, security and Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department maintenance of the system. They comply with the for Transport how many air proximity hazards have mandatory requirements of the Security Policy Framework been reported to the Civil Aviation Authority’s UK in relation to information security including managing Airprox Board in each year since 1997. [285836] the risk of unauthorised access to ICT systems. Paul Clark: The Airprox events for the years from Departmental Electronic Equipment 1997 to 2008 are given in the following table.

Number of Airprox events Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning 1997 208 devices and (c) fax machines, excluding multi-function 1998 201 devices, there are in his Department; how many there 1999 208 were in each of the last three years; and if he will make 2000 198 a statement. [286166] 2001 195 2002 221 Ann McKechin: Details of the number of Scotland 2003 181 Office photocopiers, scanning devices and fax machines 2004 207 in each of the last three years are provided in the 2005 188 following table: 2006 159 2007 154 Scotland Office—overall 2008 155 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Photocopiers 6 5 4 Aircraft: Air Conditioning Scanning devices 2 2 3 Fax machines (incl. 19 18 16 secure fax) Mr. Peter Ainsworth: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether he plans to require My officials are in regular communication with their cabin air quality monitoring systems to be installed on counterparts in the Scottish Government and about the passenger aircraft. [286904] information and communications technology system (SCOTS), which the Office shares with the Scottish Paul Clark [holding answer 14 July 2009]: UK passengers Government, as well as compatible devices that will travel on a range of global airlines. Within Europe, we help reduce the carbon footprint of the office. suggest that any mandatory system to be fitted to The Scottish Government are complying with the commercial passenger aircraft would have to be required same standards as those set out in the Greening and approved by the European Aviation Safety Agency, Government ICT Strategy. on the basis of evidence that it was necessary and fit for purpose i.e. capable of detecting any specific items of Departmental Publications concern in the circumstances where these might occur. In the UK we are conducting research to ascertain what substances are in cabin air, and at what concentrations, Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland both in normal circumstances and during occasional who authored the Scotland Office Background Paper, “fume events”. When we have obtained and assessed Scotland and oil, published 18 June 2009; when the this information, it may be appropriate for the UK to Paper was commissioned; what background papers the recommend some kind of detection systems. Scotland Office has published since May 1997; who was consulted in the production of the Paper; what estimate he has made of the cost of (a) producing and (b) Mr. Peter Ainsworth: To ask the Minister of State, printing the Paper; and what steps his Department took Department for Transport what procedures are used to to publicise the Paper. [286784] quantify and investigate instances of air contamination on board commercial aircraft; and if he will make a statement. [286905] Mr. Jim Murphy: The paper was produced by the Scotland Office to provide a factual analysis of the position to help inform debate. It was prepared over the Paul Clark [holding answer 14 July 2009]: The principal course of 2009, in consultation with other relevant procedure is the Mandatory Occurrence Reporting scheme Government Departments. which the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) established in 1976. Its objectives are to ensure that the CAA is As the paper was part of the ongoing work of the advised of any hazardous, or potentially hazardous, Scotland Office, there were no additional costs involved. incidents and defects (occurrences), and that appropriate It was made available on the Scotland Office website. action is taken. All reports are disseminated to the Similar papers may be published in the future, as relevant specialists in CAA. The Head of the Aviation appropriate, but have not been hitherto. Health Unit will see any where health effects are reported. 383W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 384W

Should an individual wish to bypass his employer in for Transport meets from time to time with the Committee reporting an incident, a separate procedure exists whereby on Climate Change at ministerial and official level in details can be sent to the Confidential Human Factors order to provide information in support of the Committee’s Incident Reporting Programme. analytical work on the 2050 target. No discussions have taken place with the Committee Mr. Peter Ainsworth: To ask the Minister of State, on the effects of the target on specific aviation policy Department for Transport what the responsibilities of initiatives. The Government will develop their approach (a) his Department, (b) the Civil Aviation Authority to achieving the target once they have received the and (c) the Health and Safety Executive are in relation Committee’s advice. to the health of persons on board commercial aircraft; and if he will make a statement. [286906] Departmental Information Paul Clark [holding answer 14 July 2009]: The functions of the Secretary of State for Transport and the Civil Paul Holmes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Aviation Authority (CAA) with respect to health are set for Transport what the cost to his Department of press out in section 8 of the Civil Aviation Act 2006. office staff other than press officers has been in each S8 (2) amends the functions of the Secretary of State year since 1997. [283069] in the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to include a “general duty of organising, carrying out and encouraging measures Chris Mole: The information requested can be provided for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”. only at disproportionate cost. S8 (3) amends the functions of the CAA to include the “health of persons on board aircraft”. Departmental Pay S8 (4) requires the CAA to provide assistance to the Secretary of State in relation to the function. John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, The CAA established the Aviation Health Unit in Department for Transport which Minister approved the 2003 as a centre of expertise on aviation health matters. 2009 pay remit for his central Department; on what date It provides advice to the UK Government and other that remit was (a) sent to that Minister, (b) approved stakeholders; and suggests and oversees research on by the Minister and (c) sent to HM Treasury. [286977] relevant aviation medical issues. Separately, the CAA has specific health and safety Chris Mole: The Secretary of State for Transport regulatory responsibilities under the Civil Aviation (Working approved the final version of the 2009 remit of the Time) Regulations 2004 for crew members (flight and central Department on 3 June 2009 having been sent to cabin crew) of UK public transport aircraft. The the Minister that day. The final remit was submitted to Regulations require employers to ensure that each crew HM Treasury on 4 June 2009. member is provided with adequate health and safety protection and prevention services or facilities appropriate John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, to the nature of his employment. Department for Transport what the job titles are of the The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is responsible senior managers who approved the 2009 pay remit for for the enforcement of health and safety legislation in his central Department; and on what date (a) that Great Britain and the Health and Safety at Work Act remit was sent to and (b) approved by those managers. 1974 (HSWA) applies within British air space. A [286978] memorandum of understanding exists between the CAA and the HSE to reduce regulatory duplication of effort. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport (DfT) (C) Similar arrangements exist for Northern Ireland. Executive Committee discussed the pay remit for DfT (C) at its meeting on 28 April 2009. Aviation: Exhaust Emissions Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport (1) what discussions his Alistair Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department has had with (a) Lord Turner of Ecchinswell for Transport how many applications for vehicle excise and (b) other members of the Committee on Climate duty refunds from (a) private owners and (b) motor Change on the effect on lifeline flights of proposed dealerships have been processed by the Driver and targets for aviation emissions; [285958] Vehicle Licensing Agency in each month since January (2) what recent discussions his Department has had 2008; and what the monetary value was of the refunds with representatives of the Committee on Climate made in each such month. [286791] Change on the effect on plans to expand Heathrow Airport of the proposed aviation emissions targets. Paul Clark: The following table provides the total [286068] number and value of vehicle excise duty refunds processed by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) Paul Clark: The Committee on Climate Change will since January 2008. Separate figures are not available provide independent advice to the Government by for private owners and motor dealerships. However, December 2009 this year on the 2050 UK aviation since January 2009 only the current or previous registered carbon dioxide emissions target. The Committee is keeper would receive a refund of vehicle excise duty and currently undertaking analysis of a range of factors then only after informing the DVLA why the vehicle no that might contribute to meeting the target. The Department longer requires a valid tax disc: 385W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 386W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Month Volume Value (£000) January 2008 314,491 19,011 Abandoned Vehicles February 2008 302,928 21,383 March 2008 272,720 17,447 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2008 393,654 24,724 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many May 2008 301,969 22,010 abandoned vehicles were recorded in England in each June 2008 336,389 21,281 year since 1997. [286451] July 2008 321,566 22,322 August 2008 290,476 20,329 Dan Norris: The numbers of abandoned vehicles September 2008 306,270 20,031 reported by local authorities in England to DEFRA October 2008 355,190 26,895 between 2000-01 and 2003-04 in the Municipal Waste November 2008 313,229 23,223 Management Survey, and from 2004-05 onwards via December 2008 234,214 18,330 WasteDataFlow, are available on the DEFRA website January 2009 235,022 17,262 at: February 2009 195,601 11,688 www.defra.gov.uk/environment/statistics/waste/ March 2009 191,752 16,579 wrabanvehicles.htm April 2009 274,613 16,216 National figures prior to 2000-01 were not collected May 2009 183,451 14,721 by DEFRA. June 2009 270,709 17,704 Circuses: Animal Welfare John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what plans he has for levels Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for of staff recruitment to the Driver and Vehicle Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the report Licensing Agency; and if he will make a statement. of the Circus Working Group on the future use of wild animals in travelling circuses will be published. [287097] [286979] Jim Fitzpatrick: The report of the Circus Working Paul Clark: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency Group on wild animal acts in travelling circuses was is committed to efficiency and will continue to critically released on 20 November 2007. assess that to reflect the economic situation and customer need, including contributing fully to future public spending Following the publication of that report, which found rounds. We anticipate that it is likely that there will that there was no existing evidence that justified banning continue to be turnover, for example in a number of wild animal acts in circuses, DEFRA launched a feasibility specialist vacancies such as Accountants and Procurement study to look at the possibility of regulating the use of Specialists that will need to be recruited. Fixed term such animals in circuses. and temporary appointments are also used to manage The feasibility study is due to report later this year. fluctuating business demands. Departmental Internet Railways: Franchises Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when his Department Department for Transport how much funding his plans to update its web browsers from Internet Department will allocate to rail franchises in revenue Explorer 6. [285016] support in financial year 2009-10. [286901] Dan Norris: The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) provides Internet Explorer 7 Chris Mole [holding answer 14 July 2009]: The to staff via our internal office system. Department for Transport maintains financial forecasts of anticipated revenue support payable to Train Operating Companies. However, this information is commercially Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal confidential and market sensitive. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Shipping for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information the Waste Improvement Network has provided to local authorities on the procurement of containers for the Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, collection of household waste. [286526] Department for Transport how many incidents of ships losing hazardous cargo overboard resulted in (a) court Dan Norris: The Waste Improvement Network (WIN) actions and (b) fines since 1979; and what the (i) exists to share information between councils and publish nature of the conviction and (ii) financial penalty was guidance from all available sources in one place on in each case. [286298] waste management issues. It does not issue advice directly to councils. However, WIN promotes existing framework Paul Clark: The Maritime and Coastguard Agency contracts which can be used to procure bins, and provides has recorded this information centrally since 2001. There links to general information, guidance, advice and case have been no court actions or fines against ship owners studies from available sources on both procurement and for losing hazardous cargo overboard since then. waste collection strategy. 387W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 388W

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State We have, however, published guidance on the treatment for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will of waste electrical and electronic equipment which includes direct the Bird Management Unit of the Food and mobile phones and printers, which is available on DEFRA’s Environment Research Agency to conduct research website. into the effect on the prevalence of (a) vermin and (b) insects of different modes of collection of household Pollution: Fines waste. [286530] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA currently has no plans to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much has commission research into the effect on the prevalence of been levied in fines by local authorities against (a) ‘vermin’ or insects of different modes of collection of companies, (b) local authorities and (c) individuals household waste. for each type of pollution incident in each region in each year since 1997. [286450] Horses: Artificial Insemination Jim Fitzpatrick: Details of fines levied by local authorities Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for against companies, local authorities and individuals for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the pollution incidents are not held centrally and can be answer of 15 December 2008, Official Report, column sourced only at disproportionate cost. 324W, on horses: artificial insemination, how many Primates semen straws from the Hanoverian stallion Weltmeyer, reference 31-44035-84, have been imported into the UK since January 1989. [285008] Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will bring Jim Fitzpatrick: This information can be provided forward legislation to prohibit the keeping of primates only at disproportionate cost. as pets. [287093] Landfill: Carbon Emissions Jim Fitzpatrick: The Government have no plans to introduce legislation to prohibit the keeping of primates Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, as pets because we are not aware of any evidence to Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of suggest that there is a widespread problem to warrant the proportion of carbon dioxide emissions arising such action. from landfill activities in the latest period for which However, the Government accept that primates are figures are available. [285559] complex creatures that require specialist care. As a result of concerns raised in Parliament, the Government Joan Ruddock: I have been asked to reply. are working with a number of stakeholders on the According to the UK Greenhouse Gas Inventory, production of a code of practice on the welfare of landfill activities accounted for 3.2 per cent. of UK privately kept primates. total emissions in 2007. This is from methane and Sustainable Development Commission corresponds to 41.5 per cent. of UK total methane emissions in 2007. The UK agrees with the assessment of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the proportion of carbon dioxide in landfill gas is about Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what criteria 50 per cent. The UK does not separately estimate were used to select the new Chairman of the Sustainable emissions of carbon dioxide from landfills because to Development Commission; and what the remuneration do so would be to double count with carbon stock is for that post in 2009-10. [286817] changes estimated in the land-use, land-use change and forestry sector. This is in accordance with the international Dan Norris: As the sponsoring Department for the guidelines for reporting greenhouse gases to the United Sustainable Development Commission, DEFRA, on Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. behalf of the Cabinet Office, managed the appointment of the new chair of the Sustainable Development Mobile Phones Commission. The process was managed in line with the Office for the Commissioner for Public Appointments Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (OCPA) guidelines. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Candidates were required to demonstrate the full has made of the number of (a) mobile telephones and range of criteria outlined in the information pack for (b) printer cartridges which were (i) recycled, (ii) the post (see OCPA Guidelines Annex A). reused overseas and (iii) disposed of within the waste All devolved Administrations and the Prime Minister stream in each year since 1997; what research his approved the recommended appointment. Remuneration Department has (A) commissioned and (B) evaluated for the SDC chair is £400 per diem. The time input for on the disposal of mobile telephones and printer the position is two to three days per week subject to cartridges in that period; and if he will make a negotiation. statement. [286468] Veterinary Medicines Agency: Pay Dan Norris: Information on the number of mobile phones and printer cartridges recycled, reused or disposed Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, of is not collected centrally. The Department has not Food and Rural Affairs how much was paid in bonuses commissioned research into the disposal of these items. to (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and 389W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 390W delivery managers and (d) executive support and Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has policy responsibility administrative staff in the Veterinary Medicines Agency for the five injurious weeds covered by the Weeds Act in each of the last five years. [286367] 1959 (Common Ragwort, Creeping or Field Thistle and Spear Thistle and Curled and Broad Leaved Dock) and Jim Fitzpatrick: The Veterinary Medicines Directorate also for invasive species, such as Japanese knotweed is an Executive agency of DEFRA and follows DEFRA’s and water primrose. pay agreements for staff outside the senior civil service. We have not issued any specific guidance to local Non-consolidated performance payments for directors authorities on controlling the weeds covered by the are paid under the senior civil service pay agreement Weeds Act 1959. However, the Code of Practice on and the payments for the chief executive is part of his How to Prevent the Spread of Ragwort provides contract of employment. The VMD’s other staff are comprehensive guidance on how to develop a strategic eligible for non-consolidated performance payments under and cost-effective approach to control of common ragwort. the DEFRA scheme. Many of VMD’s staff straddle the It is intended for use by all landowners and occupiers categories requested so it has not been possible to break but is particularly relevant for large-scale organisations down the total annual payments for these staff which managing significant land areas, including local authorities are set out in the following table. and other public bodies. The code of practice and other information about the control of injurious weeds is £ available on the DEFRA website. 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Advice on the management of invasive non-native CEO and 10 19,047 19,674 20,405 29,803 weeds is available from a number of sources including directors the websites of the Environment Agency and the Great Other 2— 71,767 80,800 70,828 51,725 Britain Non-Native Species Secretariat. In addition, staff DEFRA published the Horticultural Code of Practice Total 0 90,814 100,474 91,233 81,528 in 2005, which provides best practice advice concerning 1 The CEO’s non-consolidated performance payments for 2003-04 and 2004-05 were paid in 2005-06. the acquisition, use and disposal of plants. 2 The VMD is unable to identify payments paid as a separate component of gross salary before 2005-06 as this information was not available from the previous payroll bureau. WALES Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges Holtham Commission Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what requirements 10. Adam Price: To ask the Secretary of State for arising from EU legislation there are in respect of (a) Wales what evidence his Department has given to the charges for businesses and local authorities disposed of Holtham Commission; and if he will make a statement. waste in landfill sites, (b) the provision of receptacles [285617] for the disposal of household waste and (c) the frequency of waste collections. [286574] Mr. Hain: The Treasury provided evidence to the Holtham Commission and last week I met with Gerald Dan Norris: The requirements from EU obligations Holtham to discuss the outcomes of the Commission’s in respect of charges on businesses or local authorities work. to dispose of waste in landfill sites relate to two directives: Crime Levels The European Waste Framework Directive which provides that in accordance with the ‘polluter pays principle’ the cost of disposing of waste must be borne by the holder or previous 11. Mrs. James: To ask the Secretary of State for holder, or the producer of the product giving rise to of the waste, Wales what assessment he has made of the likely effect or the collector or disposer of the waste. of proposals contained in the Building Britain’s Future The Landfill Directive which seeks to ensure measures are document on the level of criminal activity in Wales. taken that all the costs of setting up and operating a landfill site, [285618] including the cost of any financial security and the costs of closure and aftercare for a period of at least 30 years, are covered Mr. David: Building Britain’s Future, our strategic in the price to be charged by the operator for the disposal of waste at a landfill site. plan to build a more prosperous, stronger and fairer country contains enforceable entitlements that will help There are no requirements arising from EU obligations to reduce the level of criminal activity in Wales, such as: in respect of either the receptacles for the disposal of a right to police on the beat, with community teams spending household waste or the frequency of collections. These 80 per cent. of their time on foot patrol; are rightly matters for local authorities to determine to a right to monthly beat meetings, where local policing priorities suit local circumstances, taking into account the views are agreed; and of residents in the area. a right to minimum response times.

Weed Control Crime Prevention

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 12. Mr. Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Wales what recent discussions he has had with the Department has issued guidance to local authorities on Secretary of State for the Home Department on crime controlling weeds. [286511] prevention programmes in Wales. [285619] 391W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 392W

Mr. David: My right hon. Friend and I have regular HOME DEPARTMENT meetings with Home Office Ministers on a range of issues including crime prevention programmes. A great deal of solid and focused work has been Alcoholic Drinks undertaken around Wales to address key crime issues over the last year, with great success. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many occasions the maximum fine was imposed on a licensee for the Rail Service: Aberystwyth-London offence of persistently selling alcohol to people under-age in each of the last two years. [284845] 13. Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Alan Campbell: There have been no prosecutions Wales what recent discussions he has had with Welsh under s147A of the Licensing Act 2003 in the last two Assembly Government Ministers and Ministerial years for which data are available (2006 and 2007). colleagues on proposals for the introduction of a direct Therefore no individuals have been recorded as receiving rail service between Aberystwyth and London. [285620] the maximum fine for the offence of persistently selling alcohol to people underage. Data from 2008 will be Mr. David: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of available in autumn 2009. State and I have regular meetings with Welsh Assembly Government and ministerial colleagues to discuss matters relating to Wales, including transport issues. Alcoholic Drinks: Young People I would like to pay tribute to the work of the hon. Gentleman in his campaigning to raise the profile of Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for the this proposed rail service. There is a strong demand for Home Department (1) how much was collected in fines increased rail services in Wales, and a further rail service levied upon retail store licensees for serving alcohol to to London would be most welcome not only to rail minors in each local authority area within the users but also local businesses, by encouraging even ceremonial county of Hampshire in each of the last more visitors to Wales. five years; [286280] (2) how much was collected against fines levied upon public house licensees for serving alcohol to minors in Holiday Lettings each local authority area within the ceremonial county of Hampshire in each of the last five years. [286281] Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has had discussions with the Chancellor of Mr. Alan Campbell: It is not possible to differentiate the Exchequer on the implications for Wales of the between fines given to retailers and those given to decision to repeal rules on furnished holiday lettings. licensees of public houses. Additionally, data on the [286095] collection of fines for specific offences are not held, therefore the answer given in table 1 shows the sum of all fines imposed for offences relating to the sale of Mr. Hain: The Treasury’s decision to repeal the Furnished alcohol to under 18’s. The actual amount collected, and Holiday Lettings Scheme in 2010 is based upon advice the status of the defendant is not known. it received that by treating landlords of furnished holiday accommodation differently to other landlords in the Fines issued in Hampshire police force area for selling alcohol to UK, and across the rest of the European Economic under 18’s Area, it may be in breach of European Law. The change 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 will put landlords of holiday homes on an equal footing Selling etc. intoxicating with other landlords and brings the UK regulations in liquor to person under 18 on line with those elsewhere in the wider European Economic the premises Area. Number of fines issued 0 6700 Sum of fines imposed (£) — 1,740 1,800 — —

Public Expenditure: Wales Sale of alcohol to person under 18 Number of fines issued 0 0004 Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Sum of fines imposed (£) — — — — 1,690 what his assessment is of the effect of the recession on Note: levels of public expenditure per capita in Wales. 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. [285994] Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Mr. Hain: Figures on identifiable public spending per 2. These data are presented on the principal offence basis. Where an head in Wales were published in Public Expenditure offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal Statistical Analyses (Cm 7630) in June 2009. Public offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. expenditure for the Welsh Assembly Government was Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences the principal offence is the one for which the statutory maximum is set in the 2007 Spending Review. Wales, along with most severe. other parts of the UK, received a fiscal stimulus in the Source: pre-Budget report and Budget in response to the recession. OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice 393W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 394W

Asylum Grants of British citizenship in the United Kingdom in 2006, 2007 and 2008(P) by previous nationality Number of persons Mr. Illsley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Previous nationality 2006 2007 2008 Home Department when he expects to make a decision on the case of Mr. Davit Khutcichvili, Ref. no. European Economic Area K1100834. [285990] Austria 25 50 35 Belgium 75 40 35 Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency wrote to the Bulgaria 625 1,115 795 hon. Member on 8 July 2009. Cyprus 105 40 30 Czech Republic 95 80 40 Asylum: Finance Denmark 25 65 30 Estonia 60 65 20 Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Finland 30 40 30 Home Department how many people in receipt of France 340 480 370 section 4 support have been receiving it for a period Germany 260 370 300 longer than (a) six months, (b) one year, (c) two Greece 150 285 225 years, (d) five years and (e) 10 years. [264019] Hungary 110 95 55 Ireland 115 140 95 Mr. Woolas: As at 14 June 2009 9,354 people, excluding Italy 260 345 240 dependants, are recorded as having been on section 4 Latvia 90 85 30 support for over six months, of whom 7,598 had been Liechtenstein — 5 * on section 4 support for over one year and 5,106 for Lithuania 215 170 65 over two years. These figures are not provided under Luxembourg 5 † * National Statistics protocols and have been derived Malta 45 30 20 from local management information. They are therefore Netherlands 115 200 130 provisional and subject to change. Norway 30 25 15 Information is not available on the number of persons Poland 580 560 250 on section 4 support for over five years and could be Portugal 535 520 405 obtained only at disproportionate cost. No person has Romania 600 540 385 been on section 4 support for over 10 years as this Slovakia 155 125 55 support for failed asylum seekers became effective from Slovenia 10 10 5 7 November 2002. Spain 170 185 125 Sweden 55 105 85 Automatic Number Plate Recognition Total European Economic Area 3,665 5,785 3,885

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Remainder of Europe for the Home Department what guidance his Albania 885 1,115 930 Department has issued to (a) local authorities and (b) Armenia 110 140 70 police forces on the use of automated number plate Azerbaijan 130 215 160 recognition systems to detect parking offences. [284178] Belarus 170 175 155 Bosnia-Herzegovina 230 195 110 Mr. Hanson: Neither the Home Office nor the National Croatia 605 375 165 Policing Improvement Agency has issued guidance to (a) local authorities or (b) police forces on the use of Cyprus (Northern part of) 390 130 85 automatic number plate recognition systems (ANPR) Georgia 175 155 110 to detect parking offences. Kazakhstan 95 120 80 Kyrgyzstan 45 65 45 Following the Road Traffic Act (1991), the majority Macedonia 135 215 140 of parking enforcement is not dealt with by the police. The police operated national ANPR system is not used Moldova 90 130 100 for parking enforcement. Russia 1,830 1,885 1,380 Serbia and Montenegro 7,550 3,485 1,865 Switzerland 95 70 45 British Citizenship Tajikistan 10 5 10 Turkey 5,590 4,710 4,640 Colin Burgon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Turkmenistan 10 25 20 Home Department how many non-UK born people Ukraine 865 1,220 705 have been given British citizenship in each of the last three years; and from which countries such people Uzbekistan 60 90 60 Total Remainder of Europe 20,305 14,515 10,875 originated. [285523]

Mr. Woolas: The information requested is not in the Americas public domain in the required format. Antigua and Barbuda 15 20 15 Information based upon the previous nationality of Argentina 120 125 120 those granted British Citizenship is provided in the Bahamas 15 10 15 table. Barbados 145 105 85 395W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 396W

Grants of British citizenship in the United Kingdom in 2006, 2007 and Grants of British citizenship in the United Kingdom in 2006, 2007 and 2008(P) by previous nationality 2008(P) by previous nationality Number of persons Number of persons Previous nationality 2006 2007 2008 Previous nationality 2006 2007 2008

Belize 15 20 15 Liberia 170 245 195 Bolivia 70 75 65 Libya 460 405 385 Brazil 540 610 605 Madagascar 5 5 10 Canada 1,325 1,140 815 Malawi 130 165 175 Chile 100 90 90 Mali 5 5 * Colombia 1,580 1,845 1,115 Mauritania 5 15 5 Costa Rica 15 10 10 Mauritius 640 905 650 Cuba 90 90 80 Morocco 495 510 500 Dominica 50 35 45 Mozambique 20 15 10 Dominican Republic 35 20 35 Namibia 25 30 20 Ecuador 955 745 580 Niger 15 5 * El Salvador 10 5 15 Nigeria 5,875 6,030 4,530 Grenada 65 70 60 Rwanda 565 745 405 Guatemala 5 20 15 Senegal 25 35 30 Guyana 240 240 210 Seychelles 70 75 55 Haiti 5 5 5 Sierra Leone 1,660 2,195 1,270 Honduras 10 5 10 Jamaica 2,525 3,165 2,715 Somalia 9,050 7,450 7,165 Mexico 145 135 115 South Africa 7,670 8,150 5,265 Netherlands Antilles — — * Sudan 965 735 570 Nicaragua 5 5 10 Swaziland 5 20 10 Panama 10 10 25 Tanzania 675 530 410 Paraguay 5 † 5 Togo 120 105 60 Peru 130 220 170 Tunisia 130 185 150 St. Kitts and Nevis 10 10 5 Uganda 1,100 1,210 910 St. Lucia 85 125 140 Western Sahara † — * St. Vincent and the Grenadines 55 130 135 Zambia 400 555 460 Trinidad and Tobago 490 480 380 Zimbabwe 2,545 5,590 5,710 United States of America 3,020 2,785 2,205 Total Africa 46,280 51,255 40,910 Uruguay 25 10 10 Venezuela 105 155 120 Indian sub-continent Total Americas 12,015 12,530 10,050 Bangladesh 3,725 2,250 3,635 India 15,125 14,490 11,825 Africa Pakistan 10,260 8,140 9,440 Algeria 1,015 1,170 955 Total Indian sub-continent 29,110 24,885 24,900 Angola 945 1,200 1,070 Benin 15 15 10 Botswana 25 25 20 Middle East Burkina Faso 10 5 10 Bahrain 15 15 10 Burundi 425 680 520 Iran 3,285 4,425 2,200 Cameroon 395 535 420 Iraq 4,125 5,480 8,895 Cape Verde † † * Israel 570 540 350 Central African Republic 5 † * Jordan 320 310 175 Chad 50 30 25 Kuwait 70 25 40 Comoros † † 5 Lebanon 515 625 320 Congo 550 470 280 Oman 5 5 5 Congo Democratic Republic 1,910 2,100 1,575 Palestine 340 425 280 Djibouti 10 10 10 Saudi Arabia 60 75 30 Egypt 595 730 485 Syria 390 330 230 Equatorial Guinea † 5 10 United Arab Emirates 20 25 10 Eritrea 705 915 660 Yemen 520 400 335 Ethiopia 670 865 485 Total Middle East 10,240 12,685 12,880 Gabon 5 10 5 Gambia 315 410 395 Ghana 2,990 3,375 3,135 Remainder of Asia Guinea 35 75 95 Afghanistan 3,400 10,555 5,540 Guinea-Bissau 5 15 5 Bhutan 20 35 30 Ivory Coast 395 450 370 Brunei 10 10 5 Kenya 2,380 2,235 1,405 Cambodia 15 25 15 Lesotho 10 15 10 China 2,785 3,345 2,860 397W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 398W

Grants of British citizenship in the United Kingdom in 2006, 2007 and from the UK and (c) had their British citizenship 2008(P) by previous nationality revoked under the UK Border Agency’s powers to Number of persons exclude those who promote violent extremism and stir Previous nationality 2006 2007 2008 up hatred. [286112] Hong Kong SAR of China 10 10 10 (Holder of Certificate of Identity Mr. Woolas: The Government’s unacceptable behaviours or Document of Identity) policy is directed at those who advocate hatred or Hong Kong SAR of China 85 100 105 violence in support of their beliefs. Since the introduction (Holder of Special Administrative of the policy in August 2005, there have been (a) 106 Region Passport) exclusions, (b) one deportation and (c) no deprivations Indonesia 170 170 115 of citizenship on unacceptable behaviour grounds. Japan 180 135 110 Korea (North) 5 † * Cannabis: Suffolk Korea (South) 300 575 410 Laos 10 5 10 Malaysia 560 635 590 Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for the Maldives 5 5 5 Home Department how many seizures of cannabis were made by the police in Suffolk in each of the last Mongolia 45 65 70 five years. [286271] Myanmar (Burma) 145 180 145 Nepal 915 1,045 930 Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is Philippines 8,840 10,840 5,380 given in the following table. Singapore 95 120 120 Sri Lanka 5,720 6,495 3,285 Number of police seizures of cannabis in Suffolk police force area, 2003 to 2007-081 Thailand 785 985 1,070 Number of Cannabis seizures Vietnam 190 305 290 Total Remainder of Asia 24,295 35,640 21,085 2003 660 20042 1,080 Oceania 20053 1,181 American Samoa † † * 2006-07 1,022 Australia 3,380 2,835 1,990 2007-08 947 1 Fiji 25 65 80 The drugs seizures collection was changed from a calendar year basis to a financial year basis from 2006-07 onwards. Nauru 5 † * 2 Increases in cannabis seizures in 2004 and 2005 are thought to be New Zealand 1,565 1,355 980 associated with the introduction of cannabis warnings on 1 April Papua New Guinea 5 5 * 2004. 3 Samoa † † * 2005 figures onwards are unrounded; previous years rounded. Tonga † 10 10 Total Oceania 4,980 4,285 3,060 Citizenship: Gurkhas

Other Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home British overseas territories citizen 470 820 330 Department how many Gurkhas have (a) applied for, (1) (b) been granted and (c) been refused British British Nationals (Overseas) 545 680 540 citizenship in each of the last 15 years. [262733] British Overseas citizen 1,545 1,100 570 British protected persons 160 100 50 Mr. Woolas: UKBA does not capture information British subjects 190 150 60 relating to the employment of individual applicants Nationality Currently Unknown 10 15 5 electronically. We can not therefore provide information Nationality Unknown Officially 50 30 20 on the numbers of Ghurkhas or former Ghurkhas who Designated as Stateless have naturalised in the past 15 years as a British citizen. Stateless—Defined 1954 100 45 70 The information requested could be obtained by the Convention detailed examination of individual case records of all Stateless Refugee—Defined 1951 15 5 5 Nepalese nationals who had applied for British citizenship Convention in the past 15 years only at disproportionate cost. Stateless refugee—Other 40 15 10 Total Other 3,130 2,965 1,660 Crime: Suffolk

Grand Total 154,015 164,540 129,310 1 Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for the Excluding Gibraltar BOTCs. Home Department how many crimes committed by The information has been provided with reference to (a) males and (b) females aged between 10 and the published statistics. 17 years were recorded in Suffolk in each of the last five years. [286272] British Nationality Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for the collected centrally. From the recorded crime statistics Home Department how many people have (a) been collected by the Home Office it is not possible to prevented from entering the UK, (b) been deported identify the age or sex of the alleged offender. 399W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 400W

The Ministry of Justice collect information on the £ number of persons proceeded against and convicted by age and sex. Financial year Standard disclosure Enhanced disclosure 2007-08 24.34 33.29 Crimes of Violence: West Suffolk 2008-09 25.18 35.21 Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many crimes of violence Demos against the person were recorded as occurring in West Suffolk constituency in each of the last five years. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the [286269] Home Department what (a) private meetings and (b) public engagements Ministers in his Department have Mr. Alan Campbell: Information for the West Suffolk attended at which representatives from the think-tank constituency is not available centrally. West Suffolk Demos were present in the last 12 months; and if he comes within the Forest Heath crime and disorder will make a statement. [279500] reduction partnership (CDRP) area and figures for this CDRP are provided in the following table. Mr. Woolas: Ministers have meetings with a wide Offences of violence against the person recorded in Forest Heath variety of organisations in the public and private sectors Number of offences as part of the process of policy development and delivery.

2003-04 856 Departmental Energy 2004-05 809 2005-06 798 2006-07 1,072 Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much (a) electricity and (b) 2007-08 1,133 gas was used (i) on his Department’s estate and (ii) by Criminal Records Bureau his Department’s agencies in each year from 2004-05 to 2008-09. [280524] Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Woolas: Central Government Departments and Home Department how much on average it cost the their Executive agencies report performance data on Criminal Records Bureau to process a (a) standard their energy consumption from their offices annually as and (b) enhanced check in each of the last five years; part of the Sustainable Development in Government and if he will make a statement. [285971] (SDiG) reporting process. Mr. Hanson: The Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) is For the properties that we collect data and report on, an Executive agency of the Home Office and issues the electricity and gas use is as follows: higher level disclosures (both standard and enhanced) for employment and licensing purposes, as provided for 2005-06 in part V of the Police Act 1997. The CRB has been kWh (Baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 self-funding since 2006. Core1 Electricity 48,715,675 49,986,978 46,319,546 Fees have been frozen at the 2006-07 level, meaning Gas 21,020,944 20,731,269 15,863,319 the cost of a disclosure has not increased since April 2006. This has been achieved as a direct result of year Agency2 Electricity 3,340,052 3,765,290 3,505,445 on year internal efficiency savings and year on year Gas 3,415,074 3,210,571 2,808,985 increases in demand. Approximately 20 per cent. of applications are from volunteers and disclosures for volunteers continue to be Total Electricity 52,055,727 53,752,268 49,824,991 processed free of charge. This has resulted in a considerable Gas 24,436,018 23,941,840 18,672,304 saving for the voluntary sector. 1 Core includes Home Office, UKBA and Home Office Scientific Development Branch. As the CRB is self-funding, the processing costs for 2 Agency includes Identity and Passport Service. all the volunteer applications, processed free of charge, needs to be recovered through the fee paid by other Departmental Responsibilities applicants; consequently, the fee must be set higher than the unit cost. Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for the The unit cost of a standard and an enhanced disclosure Home Department how many Ministers with is the average cost to the CRB of producing one disclosure, responsibility for victims of crime in England and irrespective of whether the disclosure is paid for. The Wales there have been in his Department since 1997. following table shows the unit costs in each of the last [286094] five financial years. Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 13 July 2009]: £ There were in total seven Ministers in the Home Office Financial year Standard disclosure Enhanced disclosure with responsibility for victims of crime in England and 2004-05 22.73 28.09 Wales between the Government coming to power in 2005-06 19.94 26.86 1997 and the creation of the Ministry of Justice in 2007. 2006-07 18.34 24.30 Ministry of Justice Ministers now have overall responsibility for victims of crime. 401W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 402W

Deportation Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. The requested information is shown in the table: Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Number of immediate custodial sentences imposed for possession of Home Department what his Department’s policy is on cannabis or MDMA, 1997-2007 discussing planned deportations with representatives of Possession the government of the destination country based (a) in Possession of the UK and (b) in that country. [283093] of MDMA Possession cannabis Possession with intent of with intent Mr. Woolas [holding answer 30 June 2009]: The UK of MDMA to supply cannabis to supply Border Agency works in close partnership with the 1997 62 410 268 1,129 Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) on return of 1998 51 217 410 1,284 individuals who do not have a right to remain in the 1999 69 338 451 1,112 UK, including those who are subject to deportation. 2000 108 520 361 808 The FCO leads in liaison with foreign missions in the UK, and through the FCO network of UK missions 2001 151 690 290 618 overseas, to work with the authorities in the country of 2002 100 578 241 547 destination. This includes both establishing overall 2003 81 461 288 475 agreements on returns policy with the receiving country 2004 60 394 161 420 and liaison on specific cases. 2005 61 342 136 272 2006 62 256 141 240 DNA: Databases 2007 70 276 162 232 Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the Home Department pursuant to the answer of the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large 2 June 2009, Official Report, column 359W, on DNA: scale recording system Source: databases, how many children aged under 10 years have OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice had DNA samples taken with the consent of a parent or guardian in the last 12 months; and for how long on These data are presented on the principal offence average such samples were retained. [278668] basis. Where an offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is the one for Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 8 June 2009]: A which the heaviest sentence was imposed. Where the DNA sample may only be taken from a child under 10 same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences with the consent of a parent or guardian. Such samples the principal offence is the one for which the statutory are taken from children aged under 10 for elimination maximum is most severe. purposes to assist in the investigation of an offence e.g. from children who are the victim of a crime or who had legitimate access to a crime scene. These samples are then destroyed and not put on the actual database. Information on the number of such samples taken and Entry Clearances the average length of time for which they were retained is not held centrally. The DNA profiles of all children aged under 10 taken Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for the by England and Wales police forces have been removed Home Department how many and what proportion of from the National DNA Database, and the database is appeals against refusal of a family visit visa from (a) monitored to ensure that this remains the case. India, (b) Nigeria, (c) Bangladesh and (d) Pakistan have been dismissed in the last six years. [273593] Drugs Mr. Woolas: The number of appeals against the Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the refusal of applications for family visit visas at visa-issuing Home Department how many people have been posts in India, Nigeria, Bangladesh and Pakistan that sentenced to immediate custody for possession of (a) were (a) received and (b) dismissed in each of the last cannabis and (b) ecstasy in each year since 1997. five calendar years is shown in the following tables. [286045] Reliable data is not held for years prior to 2004.

2004 2005 2006

Appeal Dismissed Appeal Dismissed Appeal Dismissed decisions Dismissed (%) decisions Dismissed (%) decisions Dismissed (%)

Bangladesh 350 119 34 719 275 38 2,027 956 47

India 3,690 1,380 37 3,321 986 30 8,153 2,956 36

Nigeria 1,506 563 37 3,101 1,442 47 4,147 1,846 45

Pakistan 430 90 21 2,832 678 24 11,889 5,473 46 403W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 404W

2007 2008 Appeal decisions Dismissed Dismissed (%) Appeal decisions Dismissed Dismissed (%)

Bangladesh 3,146 1,557 49 4,450 2,128 48 India 9,427 4,657 49 8,841 4,198 47 Nigeria 8,703 6,090 70 8,740 7,149 82 Pakistan 14,646 7,994 55 17,230 8,783 51

Information is unpublished and treated as provisional. Forensic Science: North West

Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department how many applications for Home Department how many incidents of violent residence permits by the spouses or partners of EU crime requiring forensic science capabilities there have citizens have been awaiting a decision for more than six been in the police force areas covering (a) Lancashire, (b) Merseyside, (c) Cumbria, (d) North Wales, (e) months. [284546] Greater Manchester and (f) Cheshire in each of the last five years. [282984] Mr. Woolas: Information relating to the number of applications for residence permits from the spouses and Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 29 June 2009]: partners of EU nationals are in the same category as The table gives details of the number of violent crimes other family members and is not recorded separately which had a crime scene examination and the number and therefore is not readily available. of crimes at which potential DNA material, finger marks and footwear marks were collected in each of the Essex Police Authority: Absenteeism years from 2004-05 to 2007-08 for the police forces referred to. Figures for the 2008-09 financial year will be available shortly. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the It should be noted that in crimes where potential (a) Home Department what the rate of absence and forensic material is collected, only a proportion of the (b) absence resulting from injury at work was among forensic material collected is submitted to a forensic Essex Police Authority employees in each of the last laboratory for analysis. The proportion varies for DNA five years; what estimate he has made of the cost to the material, finger marks and footwear marks. public purse of such absences; and if he will make a statement. [283890] The information provided is from police force data collected by the Home Office on forensic activity and related detections. The data cover DNA, finger mark Mr. Hanson: Figures for staff employed by Essex and footwear mark activity. These data are normally police authority are not collected centrally. used for management information only and are not This is a matter for Essex county council and the subject to the detailed checks that apply for National chief constable of the police force. Statistics publications.

Violent crime1 Greater Cheshire Cumbria Manchester Lancashire Merseyside North Wales Total

2004-05 Crimes which have a 571 169 2,392 831 478 480 4,921 crime scene examination Crimes where potential 210 112 863 223 319 201 1928 DNA material collected Crimes where potential 119 52 1,143 140 229 107 1790 fingerprints collected Crimes where potential 35 20 150 73 58 40 376 footwear marks collected

2005-06 Crimes which have a 383 336 2,014 992 704 191 4,620 crime scene examination Crimes where potential 166 75 758 200 396 134 1729 DNA material collected Crimes where potential 77 49 592 134 254 80 1186 fingerprints collected Crimes where potential 35 12 138 88 57 49 379 footwear marks collected 405W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 406W

Violent crime1 Greater Cheshire Cumbria Manchester Lancashire Merseyside North Wales Total

2006-07 Crimes which have a 1,072 394 1,574 1,091 1,018 156 5,305 crime scene examination Crimes where potential 196 110 724 278 537 100 1945 DNA material collected Crimes where potential 116 62 635 186 289 70 1358 fingerprints collected Crimes where potential 45 27 505 101 73 56 807 footwear marks collected

2007-08 Crimes which have a 849 312 1,443 919 1,063 122 4708 crime scene examination Crimes where potential 174 117 714 264 580 82 1931 DNA material collected Crimes where potential 60 50 666 171 316 57 1320 fingerprints collected Crimes where potential 37 32 317 96 61 45 588 footwear marks collected 1 ‘Violent crime’ covers all violence against the person offences.

G20: Protest how many people from each country were (a) arrested for and (b) convicted of human trafficking offences in Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the each of the last five years. [282151] Home Department whether he plans to take steps in response to the report by Her Majesty’s Inspector of Mr. Alan Campbell: The numbers of arrests and Constabulary on the G20 protests; and if he will make convictions for human trafficking broken down by country a statement. [285933] of origin is set out in the following table:

Mr. Hanson: The Government welcome the interim Arrests Convictions report by Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary on United Kingdom 68 9 the G20 protests and will be working closely with the Nigeria 6 0 police to ensure the conclusions and recommendations Somalia 2 0 are properly addressed, and co-ordinated with the Romania 36 5 recommendations coming out of other reviews into the Poland 16 3 policing of the G20 summit and the policing of protest by the Home Affairs Committee and the Joint Committee Spain 1 1 on Human Rights. Lithuania 31 6 Latvia 4 1 Human Trafficking: Babies Bulgaria 7 2 Cameroon 2 0 Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Kosovo 22 10 the Home Department what recent representations he Turkey 4 2 has received on the adequacy of legislation on the Thailand 27 8 trafficking of babies into the UK; and if he will make a Malaysia 12 1 statement. [273057] Pakistan 9 1 Albania 25 21 Mr. Alan Campbell: Following discussions with the Hungary 19 1 Crown Prosecution Service we have introduced a clause Moldova 5 1 in the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill to Vietnam 6 2 amend Section 4 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants etc.) Act 2004. Slovakia 17 3 Congo 3 0 This amendment will allow for the prosecution, under Brazil 1 1 trafficking legislation, of those who bring small children China 57 11 or vulnerable adults into the country for the purpose of obtaining benefits, and where the role of the child or Ukraine 2 1 vulnerable adult is entirely passive. Czech Republic 40 8 Portugal 2 0 Human Trafficking: Convictions Serbia 4 4 Germany 4 1 Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Philippines 2 1 Department pursuant to the answer of 16 June 2009, Macedonia 4 2 Official Report, column 192W, on human trafficking, 407W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 408W

Mr. Hanson: The Government’s updated National Arrests Convictions Security Strategy takes into account the threat posed to Greece 1 1 UK interests by the full range of ‘threat actors’; a Bangladesh 10 1 definition which includes natural hazards, as well as South Africa 1 1 individuals or organisations with malign intent. Malta 2 1 The associated Cyber Security Strategy of the United Kingdom, published alongside and reflected in the National Security Strategy update, considers a number of methods Illegal Immigrants: Deportation of cyber attack, including those that generate high levels of power that can damage or disrupt unprotected Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the electronics. Home Department what arrangements his Department Both strategies were produced in consultation with has made with the French Government to fly back to experts within and outside Government. their country of origin potential illegal entrants into Offensive Weapons the United Kingdom from France; when he expects the first such flights to happen; how costs will be split between the Government and the French Government; Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for the and what payments in cash or benefits in kind will be Home Department what recent steps he has taken to made to those placed on such flights. [243113] tackle knife crime; and if he will make a statement. [283215] Mr. Woolas: The United Kingdom (UK) continues to work with France—one of our closest European Mr. Hanson: In March my predecessor announced an partners—in fighting illegal migration. Our shared extra £5 million to tackle knife crime and increase determination has already created one of the toughest targeted police action to tackle a minority of young border crossings in the world at Calais. As part of this people who commit serious violence, regardless of the co-operation, the UK and France are assessing the weapon involved. In June I committed more than feasibility of joint return flights to fly back to their £2 million to support over 150 organisations who work country of origin potential illegal entrants who have no with young people to tackle knife crime and support lawful basis with which to be in either country. victims. The UK Border Agency does not disclose information Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in advance about the dates or destinations of charter the Home Department how much his Department has flights in order to ensure the safety and security of our spent on promoting anti-knife initiatives in the last own staff, our contractors, and those we are seeking to 12 months. [284114] return. Additionally, the government of the country of origin may request that we do not publicise our operation Mr. Hanson: The Home Office spent a total of £1,918,979 as a condition of granting clearance for the flight. As on promoting anti-knife initiatives in the last complete there are currently no firm arrangements in place for financial year 2008-09 (this figure is composed of advertising the UK and France to operate a joint flight, there has media, PR and print costs but excludes supplier fees, been no agreement about cost allocation or whether any production and VAT). payment to returnees is appropriate. Any details about costs or breakdown of costs to an airline contracted for Offensive Weapons: Amnesties the purpose of a joint flight would be regarded as commercially confidential. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of knife amnesty programmes; and if Jersey he will make a statement. [282087]

Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hanson: On 26 June 2007, following the national the Home Department whether (a) his Department knife amnesty in 2006, the Government published a and (b) police forces in England and Wales have best practice guide for local police forces and practitioners received any requests from Jersey police to provide providing a tactical menu of options to tackle knife-enabled information about elected members of the state of crime at a local level. This was developed closely with Jersey. [286137] ACPO and was developed drawing on the local lessons learned from the national amnesty. Mr. Hanson: The Home Office has received no such The 2006 knife amnesty was held from 24 May to the reports. Neither are we aware of any such reports being end of June 2006. Over that period, almost 90,000 items received by police forces in England and Wales. were handed in to police in England and Wales. This constitutes a substantial quantity of potentially lethal items taken off the streets. The amnesty was just one National Security Strategy: Electromagnetic Pulses facet of our knife crime strategy, which focuses on tough enforcement, education programmes and support Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for the for wider prevention work. We are continuing our support Home Department what recent discussions he has had to local initiatives and projects through the Community on electromagnetic pulses in the context of the Fund, which was established in December 2008 and National Security Strategy; and if he will make a will provide financial assistance to 144 groups over statement. [286183] three years. 409W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 410W

Personation Mr. Hanson: Every use of taser by police officers in England and Wales is recorded and a report sent through Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for the to the Home Office Scientific Development Branch Home Department how many people in (a) the East of (HOSDB) for collection. This data is summarised and England and (b) Suffolk reported being a victim of published on a quarterly basis and has been used to offences related to identity fraud in each of the last five inform taser’s operational effectiveness and its medical implications. The latest data can be found at: years. [286268] http://scienceandresearch.homeoffice.gov.uk/images/106966/ Taserfigs_Sep-ec_08_.pdf Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not available centrally.The use of another person’s identification HOSDB also published an evacuation of the 12 month details (or the use of false identification details), often trial of taser by specially trained units in November referred to as identity fraud, is not in itself an offence in 2008. law. It is the action that is undertaken using those identification details that needs to be considered in UK Border Agency: Office of the Chief Inspector respect of whether an offence has occurred and should be recorded. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what the budget is of the Office of the Police Community Support Officers: Clothing Chief Inspector of the UK Border Agency; and how many staff are employed in that office; [285927] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) how many staff employed in the Office of the Home Department when he next expects to meet the Chief Inspector of the UK Border Agency worked for (a) Head of the Home Office Scientific Development his Department prior to their appointment at the Branch and (b) President of the Association of Chief Agency; [285934] Police Officers to discuss stab-proof vests for police (3) what the salary is of the Chief Inspector of the community support officers. [286907] UK Border Agency; at what pay grades staff in his office are employed; and how many such staff are Mr. Hanson [holding answer 14 July 2009]: The employed at each grade; [285935] provision of stab-proof vests for police community (4) what the cost of the premises occupied by the support officers is not a matter for the Home Office Office of the Chief Inspector of the UK Border Agency Scientific Development Branch. However, I will discuss is in 2009-10. [285936] the issue of stab-proof vests for police community support officers in wider discussions on police equipment Mr. Woolas: The independent Chief Inspector UK with the President of the Association of Chief Police Border Agency has a budget of £3 million for 2009 -10. Officers shortly. As of 1 July 2009, 24.9 full-time equivalent staff work in the Office of the Chief Inspector (excluding the Chief Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Inspector). An additional five staff have been appointed Home Department what assessment he has made of and are expected to take up posts shortly. the average cost of equipping a police community Of the 24.9 full-time equivalent staff in post on 1 July support officer with a stab-proof vest. [286910] 2009, 15.9 staff worked for the Home Office prior to their employment. Mr. Hanson [holding answer 14 July 2009]: Ihave The Chief Inspector’s current salary is £159,108. The made no assessment of the cost of equipping a police following table sets out the position on the current community support officer with protective body armour. number and grades of staff (excluding the Chief Inspector). The equipping of police community support officers is an operational matter for chief officers of police. The annual costs for 2009-10 for the premises occupied by the Office of the Chief Inspector UK Border Agency are still to be confirmed. Police Community Support Officers: Staffordshire Office of Chief Inspector UKBA staff as at 1 July 2009 Number Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police community support Senior Civil Service (Pay Band 1) 1 officers became full members of the police force in the Grade 6 4 Staffordshire Police Authority area in the most recent Grade 7 7.9 period for which figures are available. [285920] SEO or equivalent 7 HEO or equivalent 1 Mr. Hanson: Eight PCSOs left their post in Staffordshire EO or equivalent 4 to become police officers in the financial year 2007-08. AA/AO or equivalent 0 Note: Police: Stun Guns Inaddition:3xSEO;1xEOand1xAOhavebeenappointed and will take up posts shortly.

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what analysis his Department has Home Department how many overseas visits to each undertaken of the use of tasers by police officers in the country have been made by the Chief Inspector of the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. UK Border Agency; and what the cost to the public [285340] purse was of such visits. [285928] 411W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 412W

Mr. Woolas: I have asked the independent chief inspector Mr. Kidney: The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority to respond in writing to my right hon. Friend. (NDA) is responsible for the clean up and decommissioning of the Berkeley site in line with its published strategy. I Vetting understand that the NDA’s objective is to separate Berkeley Centre from the licensed site to facilitate reuse and that detailed planning for this is well underway. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the answer to the Departmental Electronic Equipment hon. Member for Surrey Heath of 16 October 2008, Official Report, column 1436W, on vetting, how many Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) standard and (b) enhanced Criminal Records Energy and Climate Change how many (a) photocopiers, Bureau checks were undertaken in each police force (b) scanning devices and (c) fax machines, excluding area in each of the last five years; and if he will make a multi-function devices, there are in his Department; and statement. [285996] if he will make a statement. [286175]

Mr. Hanson: The total number of standard and enhanced Joan Ruddock: As of 9 July 2009, in the Department disclosures processed in each financial year since 2002 there are: until March 2009 is shown in the following table. (a) 17 photocopiers; CRB checks processed (b) 11 faxes, and Standard Enhanced (c) 0 scanners. Financial year disclosures disclosures Total Departmental Public Expenditure 2002-03 178,375 1,258,719 1,437,094 2003-04 285,130 1,999,558 2,284,688 Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 2004-05 275,197 2,155,740 2,430,937 and Climate Change what estimate he has made of his 2005-06 313,368 2,456,897 2,770,265 Department’s capital underspend in 2009-10; and how 2006-07 329,223 2,948,734 3,277,957 much of that sum he proposes to return to the 2007-08 294,592 3,028,659 3,323,251 Exchequer. [284327] 2008-09 396,274 3,457,410 3,853,684 Grand total 2,072,159 17,305,717 19,377,876 Joan Ruddock: DECC does not expect to underspend against its capital budget in 2009-10. The CRB cannot provide figures broken down by police force area. This is because standard disclosures Energy: Conservation are processed without any requirement for the police forces to conduct checks and several different police Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for forces may be required to conduct checks in order to Energy and Climate Change what recent steps he has produce one enhanced disclosure. taken to implement the undertakings made by the Prime The CRB has now issued over 20 million disclosures Minister on 11 September 2008 in relation to the home since inception and operates to a set of published energy saving programme; and if he will make a statement. service standards (PSS) which are to issue 95 per cent. [265834] of standard disclosures within 10 days and 90 per cent. of enhanced disclosures within 28 days. While the CRB Mr. Kidney [holding answer 23 March 2009]: The have consistently exceeded their targets for standard Prime Minister’s announcement saw a £74 million increase disclosures, there have been problems in meeting the in funding for the Warm Front Scheme, offering grants target set for enhanced disclosures. for central heating and energy efficiency measures for the fuel poor. Over 37,000 households have been assisted To address these problems associated with delays, the to date with this additional funding. CRB have set up an improvement plan with their delivery partners, including the police forces. This is aimed at Also the weekly rate for cold weather payments was maintaining a balanced output of applications on the increased from £8.50 to £25. Over 8 million payments system while also reducing the number of aged cases. were made during winter 2008-09—at a value of This work has started to show an improvement in £209 million. turnaround times but the CRB will continue to monitor Following full public consultation, the Government forces performance in line with their own performance. have laid the statutory instruments giving effect to the proposals for the Community Energy Saving Programme (CESP) and the increase in the Carbon Emissions Reductions Target (CERT), subject to parliamentary ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE approval. Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Berkeley Power Station Energy and Climate Change how much new funding for low-carbon community heating schemes announced Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in Budget 2009 will be provided in (a) 2009-10, (b) and Climate Change what plans he has for the future 2010-11 and (c) subsequent years. [285101] use of the former nuclear laboratories site at Berkeley; and when he expects the Nuclear Decommissioning Mr. Kidney: Of the £25 million made available in Authority to present proposals for that future use. Budget 2009 to fund low-carbon community heating [281350] schemes, £20.96 million is being administered by the 413W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 414W

Homes and Communities Agency to fund at least There has already been considerable progress on 10 exemplar schemes in England. It is anticipated that transparency and on setting up the new bodies for all of the funding will be provided to successful schemes cooperation between regulators and system operators. in 2009-10. The remainder of the funding was made Work is also under way on the technical and regulatory available to the devolved Administrations in line with frameworks needed to underpin greater market integration. the Barnett formula and is a matter for them. Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change what recent discussions he has Energy and Climate Change when the first payments of had with his EU counterparts on the early voluntary money from the new funding for low-carbon implementation of the most recent EU liberalisation community heating schemes announced in Budget package in respect of the European energy market. 2009 will be made. [285102] [284774]

Mr. Kidney: The first payments of money from the Mr. Kidney: The EU liberalisation package was adopted new funding for low carbon community heating schemes on 25 June. Department officials are encouraging other will be made before the end of July. A formal and more member states to implement early as much of the detailed announcement will be made as soon as is package as possible, and I will reinforce this when I possible. meet other EU energy Ministers in the course of business.

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what criteria will be used Evian to select recipients of the new funding for low-carbon community heating schemes announced in Budget Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009. [285103] Energy and Climate Change what the outcomes were of Mr. Kidney: The criteria used to select recipients of his visit to Evian on 6 July; and if he will publish on his the new funding for low carbon community heating Department’s website the papers discussed with his schemes include: French counterpart during that visit. [286719] Novelty, innovation or exemplar quality; Joan Ruddock: The meeting showed how close the Support for new housing development or refurbishment of thinking of the UK and France is on climate change existing buildings; and energy policy. Much of the discussion between my Value for money; right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and French Carbon savings; Ministers concentrated on how to secure an ambitious Progress of the scheme and ability to deliver quickly, and to agreement at COP 15 in Copenhagen. Most notably we timescales; agreed to seek international adoption of new, tougher Help for people affected by fuel poverty; and, reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Ability to leverage additional public or private funding. The results are summarised in joint declarations on international climate change negotiations and on nuclear Energy: Meters energy. These appear on the No. 10 website.

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made Fuel Poverty of the number of domestic dwellings in Tamworth constituency which have a smart meter. [285367] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which schemes sponsored Mr. Kidney: The Department has no estimate of this. by the Government have as an objective the reduction of fuel poverty; which such schemes are planned; and European Energy Market how much has been spent on each scheme in the latest period for which figures are available. [285901] Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Kidney: Warm Front is the main Government and Climate Change what recent assessment he has funded scheme for tackling fuel poverty in England. made of levels of likely voluntary implementation by Over 1.9 million households have received assistance EU member states of the most recent EU liberalisation with heating, insulation and other energy efficient measures package in respect of the European energy market in since the scheme’s inception in June 2000. advance of legislation coming into force in 2011. [284773] Funding for the scheme has been increased to more than £950 million in the current spending round. In the Mr. Kidney: We expect the latest EU energy liberalisation previous spending round period, 2005-08, Warm Front package to come into force shortly, with implementation total spend was £862 million. of most aspects of it then to be completed within The Government are currently undertaking a wide- 18 months. Well functioning EU energy markets will ranging review of our fuel poverty policies. The review make an important contribution to energy security and is examining whether existing measures to tackle fuel investment to support low carbon energy supplies. This poverty could be made more effective and whether new is why we are encouraging other member states to policies should be introduced to help us make further implement early as much of the package as possible. progress towards our goals. 415W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 416W

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for partners—to deliver pilot microgeneration projects for Energy and Climate Change what initiatives to tackle deprived communities in the north-east, Yorkshire and fuel poverty are being provided by private companies Humberside, East of England and, possibly, Wales. under his Department’s direction; how much has been The new Community Energy Saving programme (CESP) spent on each in the latest period for which figures are will see the main energy companies deliver energy efficiency available; and whether any other such schemes are measures worth around £350 million to homes in low planned. [285902] income areas around the country. The scheme will deliver both carbon savings and fuel bill savings to Mr. Kidney: Warm Front is the main Government assisted households, and subject to parliamentary approval scheme for tackling fuel poverty in the private sector in is expected to come into force in September this year. England and is managed by eaga plc. Over 1.9 million The Government are currently undertaking a wide- households have received assistance with heating, insulation ranging review of our fuel poverty policies. The review and other energy efficient measures since the scheme’s is examining whether existing measures to tackle fuel inception in June 2000. Funding for the scheme has poverty could be made more effective and whether new been increased to more than £950 million in the current policies should be introduced to help us make further spending round. The scheme is managed for the progress towards our goals. Government by eaga plc. Future Energy Networks Team The carbon emissions reduction target (CERT) is an obligation placed on energy supply companies that have Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for more than 50,000 customers to achieve CO2 savings in the homes of domestic consumers—40 per cent. of Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his which must be met by installing measures in the homes Department are working in the future energy networks of a priority group of low-income consumers in receipt team. [285096] of qualifying benefits or are aged 70 and over. Mr. Kidney: The Future Electricity Networks (FEN) Energy suppliers do not disclose the amount of money team is part of the Renewables Directorate and is made that they spend on promoting CERT measures, as they up of 12 people. regard this as being commercial-in-confidence. However, Insulation: Housing we understand that under the previous two phases of the energy efficiency commitment (EEC), which ran from April 2002 to March 2008, suppliers invested Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for £1.325 billion promoting measures. The Government’s Energy and Climate Change how much has been spent estimate of likely spend for the current CERT is from the public purse on insulating the homes of £3.2 billion. With 60 per cent. of this investment expected pensioners in each local authority area in Greater to be directed at the Priority Group, the total investment Manchester in each of the last five years. [285381] over nine years would total £2.7 billion. Mr. Kidney: The following table details the Warm DECC has provided funding of £3 million between Front funding spent on insulating the homes of over 2008-09 to 2010-11 under the Low Carbon Buildings 60’s in each local authority area in Greater Manchester programme—together with revenue funding from in each of the last five years.

£ Local authority 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-101 Total

Bolton 132,374.20 237,704.61 248,163.23 182,662.34 45,817.05 846,721.43 Bury 75,986.77 162,115.45 115,095.72 97,909.33 41,201.97 492,309.24 Manchester 80,305.86 174,675.11 123,719.35 97,067.10 34,664.02 510,431.44 Oldham 74,876.18 152,595.20 118,227.46 93,377.32 30,278.27 469,354.43 Rochdale 85,797.64 180,263.33 103,292.97 117,583.31 36,847.64 523,784.89 Salford 95,302.55 186,267.34 95,899.60 131,508.95 31,440.38 540,418.82 Stockport 90,460.84 221,788.91 124,709.77 193,585.93 63,698.40 694,243.85 Tameside 71,009.40 153,265.42 104,586.24 147,911.29 29,391.33 506,163.68 Trafford 64,147.31 122,690.78 125,323.81 129,179.62 55,439.88 496,781.40 Wigan 163,826.48 289,096.05 236,302.84 288,649.36 76,426.73 1,054,301.46 1 From 1 March 2009 to 30 June 2009.

Low Carbon Buildings Programme 2009-10 2010-11 Total Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much new funding for Phase I Ext 5510 the Low-carbon Buildings Programme announced in (Householders) Budget 2009 there will be in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) subsequent years. [285098] Phase II Ext 25 10 35 Mr. Kidney: The new £45 million funding for the Low (Others) Carbon Buildings Programme announced in Budget 2009 will be allotted over (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and Total 45 (c) subsequent years as follows: 417W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 418W

There is no planned expenditure after 2011. The Low earned by the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Carbon Buildings Programme will be superseded by in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12 and (d) Feed in Tariffs in 2010 and Renewable Heat Incentives 2012-13. [285087] in 2011. Mr. Kidney: The budget of the Nuclear Decommissioning Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority (NDA) for 2009-10 and 2010-11 was considered Energy and Climate Change when the first payments of within the context of the 2007 comprehensive spending money from the new funding for the Low-carbon review (CSR07). The settlement assumed that the NDA’s Buildings Programme announced in Budget 2009 will commercial income would be £2.2 billion for 2009-10 be made. [285099] and 2010-11. The commercial income budget for 2011-12 and 2012-13 has yet to be determined, and will take into Mr. Kidney: The new grant funding under the Low account the end of life of existing Magnox electricity Carbon Buildings Programme became available from generating stations and the evaporative capacity at Sellafield. 1 July 2009 when new applications were welcomed. With a lead in period of approximately three months Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for between grant offer letter and payment upon completion Energy and Climate Change how much commercial of project—the first payment of grant money allocated income was earned by the Nuclear Decommissioning is expected to be in October 2009. Authority in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [285088]

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney: The NDA publishes commercial income Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the in their annual report and accounts. Their commercial new funding for the Low-carbon Buildings Programme income for 2007-08 was £1,458 million. The accounts announced in Budget 2009 will be made available for for 2008-09 will be laid before Parliament later this solar photovoltaic installations in (a) 2009-10, (b) month. 2010-11 and (c) subsequent years. [285100] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney: The proportion of the new £45 million Energy and Climate Change what the Nuclear funding for Low Carbon Buildings programme (LCBP) Decommissioning Authority’s budget is for (a) 2009- announced in Budget 2009 which will be made available 10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12 and (d) 2012-13, broken for solar photovoltaic applications under LCBP Phase 2 down by budget heading. [285089] in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) subsequent years is as follows: Mr. Kidney: The budget of the Nuclear Decommissioning 2009-10 2010-11 Total Authority (NDA) for 2009-10 and 2010-11 was considered within the context of the 2007 comprehensive spending Phase II Ext New 14 0 14 review (CSR07). The settlement provides the NDA with Addition for PV £3.3 billion direct Government funding over the last two years of CSR07 (£1.6 billion in 2009-10 and There is no planned expenditure after 2011. The Low £1.7 billion in 2010-11) of which £0.9 billion is resource Carbon Buildings programme will be superseded by and £2.4 billion is capital. Together with its commercial feed in tariffs in 2010 and renewable heat incentives in income the total funding available over the last two 2011. years of CSR07 is projected to be £5.5 billion. The Members: Correspondence budget for 2011-12 and 2012-13 has yet to be determined.

Sir Michael Spicer: To ask the Secretary of State for Nuclear Power Energy and Climate Change when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary in his Department plans to reply to Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for the email of 31 March from the hon. Member for West Energy and Climate Change when the Nuclear Worcestershire on a replacement low carbon buildings National Policy Statement will be launched. [280360] programme. [274636] Mr. Kidney: The Government will publish a draft Joan Ruddock [holding answer 12 May 2009]: I apologise Nuclear National Policy Statement (NPS) in autumn for the unacceptable delay in replying to the hon. Member, 2009 for public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. which was due to administrative error in my Department. We aim to designate the NPS in spring 2010. The e-mail the hon. Member refers to forwarded correspondence from Councillor Anne Mackison regarding Nuclear Power Stations: Construction the Low Carbon Buildings Programme. My colleague, the previous Minister of State in this Department, replied directly to Councillor Mackison on 20 April Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009. I apologise that the hon. Member was not copied Energy and Climate Change what progress has been in to that letter, and I have therefore sent a copy of that made on the generic design assessment for nuclear new letter to him today. build against the Office for Nuclear Development’s draft timeline. [285042] Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Mr. Kidney [holding answer 8 July 2009]: The UK Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for nuclear regulators are currently assessing two designs Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made under the Generic Design Assessment (GDA) process— of the amount of commercial income that will be EdF/Areva’s UK-EPR and Westinghouse’s API 000. 419W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 420W

This process is being undertaken by the Nuclear For gas fired power stations the supply route is robust, Installations Inspectorate (NII) and the Office for Civil with gas being transported by pipeline via the main Nuclear Security (OCNS) (both part of the Health and national gas transmission network. We are working Safety Executive’s Nuclear Directorate) and the with gas network owners via E3C to ensure appropriate Environment Agency. business continuity plans are in place to minimise the GDA began in July 2007 on a contingent basis, likelihood of disruption to gas supplies. pending the outcome of the Government’s consultation The UK’s nuclear power station need to replenish on nuclear power in January 2008. Regulators completed their nuclear reactor fuel on a regular basis, however the their initial stage of the assessment in March 2008. The impact of a delay in the replenishment programmes more detailed assessment stages of GDA commenced in would be a gradual reduction in output rather than June 2008. complete loss. The risk of a disruption to supply Regulators have stated that they remain on track to arrangements is deemed to be very low, however British complete GDA by June 2011. The NII will produce Energy and Magnox are working with the Nuclear interim reports in November 2009 and the Environment Installations Inspectorate to understand what flexibility Agency aim to undertake a public consultation on their exists within current regulations to help extend the life findings in spring 2010. This is consistent with the of fuel cells and thus reduce the frequency of the Government’s indicative timeline for the first new nuclear refuelling process if necessary. power stations coming online from around 2018. Regular updates on the progress of GDA, including Radioactive Waste: Waste Management quarterly reports, are published on the regulator’s joint website: Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy http://www.hse.gov.uk/newreactors/index.htm and Climate Change what the baseline planning assumptions are for the proposed national deep-level Plutonium geological repository for radioactive waste. [285519]

Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Kidney: [holding answer 9 July 2009]: The and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 8 June “Managing Radioactive Waste Safely White Paper: A 2009, Official Report, column 725W, on plutonium, Framework for Implementing Geological Disposal”, for what reason his Department declined to fund the published in June 2008, outlined the role of the Nuclear travel and accommodation expenses of stakeholders Decommissioning Authority (NDA) as the body responsible attending the plutonium policy meeting on 21 May for planning and implementing geological disposal of 2009; and if he will make a statement. [282004] higher activity radioactive waste. The White Paper sets out a staged decision-making Mr. Kidney: Normal practice is for organisations to process to site a geological disposal facility and the fund the expenses of those attending meetings on their NDA are proceeding with early planning. The process is behalf. driven by discussions with potential host communities DECC in common with all Departments has to manage but early assumptions will need to be made for planning its limited funding and used normal practice with respect purposes on a wide range of technical issues that will to the expenses of those invited to the meeting. not become clear for some time, such as the potential geological characteristics of a site and the amount of Power Stations: Influenza waste to be disposed of. The NDA plans to publish a document outlining and explaining its early planning Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for work on this subject later this year. Energy and Climate Change what arrangements his Department has made regarding the continuity of fuel Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy supplies to power stations in the event of an influenza and Climate Change what discussions (a) Ministers pandemic. [283254] and (b) officials in his Department have had with the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority on (i) the earliest Mr. Kidney: DECC has been working closely with the and (ii) latest dates for the proposed national deep-level energy sector through the Energy Emergencies Executive geological repository for radioactive waste to open to Committee (E3C) for over two years in order to identify receive waste deposits; and what discussions have been and mitigate energy supply risks specific to an influenza held on the operational opening dates. [285520] pandemic. Within the power generation industry, work has focused Mr. Kidney [holding answer 9 July 2009]: Ministers on a number of risks to the continuity of generation and Officials meet the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority including; a severe shortage of manpower, unavailability (NDA) regularly to discuss its responsibilities for of primary fuels for generation and disruption of the decommissioning and clean-up of the UK’s public civil supply chain for essential chemicals and other goods. nuclear sites including the geological disposal of higher On the particular question of fuel supplies, these are activity radioactive waste. mainly coal, gas and nuclear. The process to site a geological disposal facility is In the case of coal, fuel stocks currently stand at driven by discussions with potential host communities. about three months supply, and this figure would usually The programme is flexible and able to incorporate both rise as we approach the winter. These stock levels are robust technical site investigations and ongoing interactions thought to be sufficient to cope with any disruptions between the project and potential host communities. caused by a flu pandemic, where the peak impact might The Government have therefore not set a fixed delivery be intense but would be of a relatively short duration. timetable, but the NDA, as part of their baseline delivery 421W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 422W strategy, has a current planning assumption that the Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for disposal facility could be available to receive the first Energy and Climate Change what procedures are in waste in 2040. In the event that geological disposal place to ensure that work is carried out by Warm Front facilities are not available until after this date, interim contractors before they are paid for it. [285190] stores will have their lives extended as required, in order to provide safe and secure interim storage throughout the geological disposal facility development programme. Mr. Kidney: All Warm Front installations must be signed for by the householder, who will sign a Works Completion Certificate confirming they are satisfied Renewable Energy with the installation that has been carried out. Installers then submit their request for payment to eaga. Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Inspections of the installations (100 per cent. of gas, and Climate Change when he plans to announce his 5 per cent. of oil, 5 per cent. of electric heating installations, decision on the future of (a) the Severn Tidal Barrier and a 5 per cent. sample of insulation installations) are and (b) each other proposed renewable energy project also performed, eaga reserves the right to withhold under consideration by his Department. [284315] payment to installers should the installation not meet Warm Front required standards. Mr. Kidney: The Government response to public In those cases where the work quoted exceeds the consultation on Severn tidal power is published today. grant limit the customer will need to pay the excess paid A decision on whether to support a Severn Estuary direct to the installer before work can commence. power scheme will be made after further assessment of the costs, benefits and impacts and following a second public consultation, likely to be during 2010. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households The Government’s Renewable Energy Strategy, which had work undertaken for them by Warm Front contains a range of measures to meet the UK’s renewable contractors (a) in the UK and (b) in Wandsworth in energy target, will also be published shortly. (i) 2006, (ii) 2007, (iii) 2008 and (iv) 2009. [285192] Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Mr. Kidney: The following table details the number of Department has made of the heat generated from households assisted by Warm Front in (a) England and woody biomass in each year since 2005; and on what (b) Wandsworth borough in years 2005-06 to 2008-09 data he bases such estimates. [286793] and from 1 March to 19 June in 2009-10, (the latest period for which figures are available). Joan Ruddock: Information on all forms of renewable energy used for heat generation is contained in table 7.6 Assisted 2009- households 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 101 Total of the annual Digest of UK Energy Statistics. The current edition, published in July 2008, contains information England 114,591 253,079 268,900 233,594 45,168 915,332 up to and including 2007; the data for 2005-07 are Wandsworth 109 237 289 325 62 1,022 shown in the table. The next edition of the digest, which 1 Up to 19 June 2009 will contain 2008 data, is being published on 30 July 2009. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Thousand tonnes of oil equivalent Energy and Climate Change what his estimate is of the Domestic wood use Industrial wood use average waiting time for insulation work to be carried out under the Warm Front scheme in (a) 2006, (b) 2005 286.6 80.9 2007, (c) 2008 and (d) 2009. [285193] 2006 322.4 80.9 2007 358.3 80.9 Joan Ruddock: The following table details the average The data are based on information from the Forestry waiting times for insulation measures delivered by Warm Commission, the Heating Equipment Testing and Approval Front in years 2006-07 to 2008-09 and from 1 March to Scheme (HETAS), the bio-energy capital grants scheme, 9 May in 2009-10.(the latest period for which figures are and AEA, acting on behalf of DECC. available).

Average days to install

Warm Front Scheme 2006-07 33 2007-08 28 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 33 1 Energy and Climate Change how many boilers running 2009-10 24 1 on (a) wood chips and (b) other biomass fuels have To 9 May 2009 been installed under the Warm Front scheme in each of the last five years. [283246] Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in Mr. Kidney: The Warm Front scheme does not provide each region (a) were eligible for and (b) received for wood-chip and other biomass fuelled measures, grants under the Warm Front Scheme in each of the therefore no such measures have been installed. last five years; and if he will make a statement. [286485] 423W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 424W

Mr. Kidney: The Department does not record how The following table details how many households in many households are eligible for a Warm Front grant in each Government office region received grants under each region. the Warm Front scheme in each of the last five years.

Government office region North South Yorkshire East East of Greater North East West South East West West and Scheme year Midlands England London England England England England Midlands Humber

2004-05 20,505 14,520 13,623 15,420 47,246 19,000 16,978 27,457 33,335 2005-06 15,038 14,458 12,080 11,418 41,410 17,183 17,949 19,808 23,840 2006-08 24,110 19,901 12,766 20,683 61,536 22,046 19,424 36,453 36,160 2007-08 25,136 24,421 19,481 18,865 60,089 22,941 22,034 36,530 39,403 2008-09 22,613 25,503 16,888 13,721 51,079 22,959 21,365 30,745 28,721

WORK AND PENSIONS successful the UK is in detecting these attacks, and so assist such persons in testing the effectiveness of the Action for Employment UK’s IT defences. This is not in the public interest.

David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Databases Work and Pensions how many training and skills contracts her Department has with A4e; what Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work percentage of people who have attended such A4e and Pensions (1) what categories of personal training and skills courses have been placed into information on members of the public are contained permanent employment; who supervises and inspects on each database which contains such data managed by sites where A4e are giving such courses; and if she will her Department and its agencies; when each category make a statement. [283289] of information was first collected; and if she will make a statement; [284900] Jim Knight: The Department currently has 47 contracts (2) what databases managed by her Department and with A4e for the delivery of a range of welfare to work its agencies hold personal information on members of provision. the public; on what date each such database became On those contracts where we count job outcomes, operational; and if she will make a statement. [285976] during the period 2008-09, 20 per cent. of people starting provision delivered by A4e have started work. Some Jim Knight: The categories of personal data relating customers, however, will still be on provision. to members of the public contained on databases The delivery of provision is monitored by the Department administered by the Department and its agencies are set and is also subject to external inspection by Ofsted in out in the Department’s formal registration under the England, and Estyn in Wales. Areas for improvement Data Protection Act, which is available for examination identified at inspection are addressed through the on the Information Commissioner’s public website. Details Department’s contract management process. of when these categories of information were collected, the databases which hold personal information, and the Children: Maintenance dates on which each database became operational are not available centrally, and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if she will estimate the number of Departmental Equal Opportunities non-resident parents paying child maintenance who are in receipt of tax credits. [281765] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Helen Goodman: I have consulted with the Child and Pensions what her Department’s definition is of Maintenance and Enforcement Commission who have equality of opportunity in relation to her Department’s confirmed that the information requested is not available. policies; and if she will make an assessment of the impact on equality of opportunity of her Department’s Departmental Data Protection policies. [285206] Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions’ Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work statement of equality of opportunity is: and Pensions how many (a) attempts and (b) “The Department is committed to providing services which successful attempts were made to gain unauthorised embrace diversity and which promote equality of opportunity. As access to each (i) database and (ii) ICT system run by an employer we are also committed to equality and valuing her Department in each of the last five years; and if she diversity within our workforce. Our goal is to ensure that these will make a statement. [286537] commitments, reinforced by our Values, are embedded in our day to day working practices with all our customers, colleagues and Jim Knight: It is not in the interests of the UK’s partners.” national security for Departments to confirm whether This means that our internal policies are designed to they hold information about attacks against their IT ensure equality of opportunity for our existing and systems. This would enable individuals to deduce how prospective employees. For example, we carry out all 425W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 426W our permanent recruitment exercises under fair and As a result of this, from 1 October 2006, ministerial open competition and we monitor the procedures carefully Government Departments have funded the workplace to make sure that they do not unfairly discriminate disability adjustments required by their disabled staff against anyone. We are a Disability Symbol user and out of their running costs, instead of using the Access operate the Guaranteed Interview Scheme for disabled to Work programme. Ministerial Government Departments candidates. We are a Local Employment Partnership are required to provide the same level of support for employer. their employees that would be expected under the Access Our statement of equality of opportunity applies to to Work programme. our policies and to the services we offer. We carry out Jobcentre Plus continues to provide and fund assessments, equality impact assessments on new policies and services and continues to provide information and advice to and when we make changes to existing ones. This ensures disabled staff and their managers. There are no plans to that equality of opportunity is taken into account at the remove Access to Work funding from people working in earliest stage of policy and service development and other parts of the public sector, and individuals working that: in these public sector organisations can still apply for the Department’s strategies, policies and services are free from Access to Work funding. discrimination; due regard is given to equality (specifically disability, gender Future Jobs Fund and race) in decision making and subsequent processes; and opportunities for promoting equality are identified. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In order to consider the impact of equality of opportunity and Pensions by what mechanism the Future Jobs on our policies and services and to ensure the Department’s Fund will provide jobs for young people. [284966] diversity and equality work is showing real results and comparing well to comparative work carried by external Jim Knight: The Future Jobs Fund is a challenge organisations, we have also participated in external fund into which anyone can bid. We expect most bids to benchmarking exercises. External benchmarking also be made in partnership. gives us the opportunity to share best diversity practise with other organisations. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Our approach to equality is set out in a variety of and Pensions what estimate she has made of the publications, including: average level of subsidy per person funded by the the Department for Work and Pensions: Race, Disability and Future Jobs Fund in the latest period for which figures Gender Equality Schemes 2008-2011 are available. [285593] www.dwp.gov.uk/about-dwp/diversity-and-equality/dwp- equality-schemes/equality-schemes-2008-2011 Jim Knight: This is still an open bidding process and the Department for Work and Pensions: Secretary of State organisations are able to bid for up to £6,500 for every Report on Disability Equality job they create. It is a rolling assessment process with www.dwp.gov.uk/resourcecentre/policy- more organisations bidding to the fund every day. It is publications.asp#social up to those bidders to decide what level of funding they and require to create a Future Jobs Fund job. the Department for Work and Pensions: Race, Disability and Gender Equality Schemes Annual Progress Report 2008-2011 Future Jobs Fund: Oxfordshire www.dwp.gov.uk/about%2Ddwp/diversitv%2Dand% 2Dequalitv/dwp%2Dequality%2Dschemes/equalitv% 2Dschemes%2D2008%2D2011/progress%2Dreports% Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2D2009/ and Pensions who in Oxfordshire will be responsible Employment Schemes: Public Sector for administering and managing the Future Jobs Fund; and what estimate she has made of the proposed Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work budget for the fund in Oxfordshire. [284965] and Pensions if she will assess the merits of making access to work funding available to individuals working Jim Knight: The Future Jobs Fund will be managed or aiming to work in the public sector; and if she will centrally by the Department for Work and Pensions make a statement. [285802] and every Government office in England will be able to help potential bidders to develop their bids. Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 13 July 2009]: It is As it is a competitive bidding process, we are not important that individuals aiming to, or who are already ring-fencing funding for any particular region or area, working within the public sector have access to funding, however greater emphasis will be given to bids from such as Access to Work, in relation to their support areas of high worklessness and with high populations needs. Individuals working, or about to work in the of eligible young people. public sector have been eligible for Access to Work support since the inception of the programme in 1994. We believe, however, it is right for public sector Health and Safety Executive: Freedom of Information employers to set an example to other employers by recognising the value to them of taking responsibility Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for for managing workplace disability adjustments. The Work and Pensions which requests for information Strategy Unit Report “Improving the Life Chances of received by the Health and Safety Executive under the Disabled People” published in January 2005, stated that provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in there are strong grounds for asking employers in the 2008 were (a) classified as not resolvable and (b) wider public sector to fund workplace disability adjustments. refused in full. [286131] 427W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 428W

Jonathan Shaw: In 2008 HSE received a total of Letter from Mel Groves: 6,516 requests for information under the provisions of The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOI). asking how many (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist 1,882 of these requests were classed as ‘information and delivery managers and (d) executive support and administration not held’, and therefore were not resolvable by HSE. staff there were in each Jobcentre Plus office in each of the last five years. This is something which falls within the responsibilities The main reasons for this are that information was held delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. by another public authority; or the requests relate to an The information you have requested is not available in the form incident that had not been reported to HSE. you have sought. Detailed statistics are not routinely held on staff A further 966 requests for information were withheld by the descriptions you have provided; nor are staff necessarily in full. Many of these requests were in relation to allocated to a specific Jobcentre Plus office. Jobcentre Plus is a ongoing investigations, where the release of such national organisation and delivers its services from around 850 information could affect the outcome of HSE’s locations around Britain. Those include Jobcentres, Contact Centres and Benefit Delivery Centres. We also operate from a small investigation. In these cases the exemption in Section 30 number of head office and regional office sites in different parts of FOI is applied. of the country where co-location arrangements apply. HSE does not have a mechanism to easily identify all However, the enclosed table provides a breakdown of staff, by of the specific reasons why requests were not resolved grade, over each of the last five years. That provides an illustration or withheld in full, except by reviewing each individual of senior management, middle management and administrative case, which could be provided only at disproportionate posts in Jobcentre Plus. The information reflects the position at cost/effort. the end of March in each of the last five years. Jobcentre Plus grade breakdown: March 2005 to March 2009 Housing Benefit March March March March March Grade 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for SCS1 52 41 58 51 45 Work and Pensions what the average length of time Band G 152 143 143 144 133 was for a new single claim for housing benefit/local Band F 383 339 359 345 335 housing allowance to be processed following the Band E 1,353 1,185 1,129 1,070 1,065 cancellation of a joint claim in the latest period for Band D 4,239 3,742 3,842 3,760 3,913 which figures are available; and in how many cases it Band C 28,106 26,730 25,595 25,450 26,638 took 30 days or more to process a claim in the latest Band B 35,860 35,151 33,762 33,069 35,239 period for which figures are available. [283625] Band A 4,330 3,891 3,058 2,527 2,110 Total 74,475 71,222 67,946 66,416 69,478 Helen Goodman [holding answer 2 July 2009]: The 1 SCS = Senior Civil Service information requested is not available. Notes: Senior Civil Service will include Directors and some senior managers; Bands G-E will include some senior managers, specialists and a Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Work number of delivery managers as well as some executive support and Pensions how many people receive (a) more and functions; Bands D-C will also include delivery managers and executive (b) less housing benefit as a consequence of the most support functions; Bands B-A comprise administrative staff. recent review of housing benefit localities carried out Jobcentre Plus: Offices by the Rent Service. [285355] Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Helen Goodman: A review of all Broad Rental Market and Pensions how much Jobcentre Plus has spent on Areas (formerly localities) was started in England by (a) increasing the physical capacity of jobcentres, (b) rent officers following amendments to the Rent Officers acquiring new office space, (c) extending existing office Order in January 2009. The first eight reviews were space and (d) converting existing office space to implemented on 1 July 2009 and a further two will be accommodate higher demand for Jobcentre Plus implemented on 1 August 2009. Other reviews, where services in the last 12 months. [285150] changes are necessary for the BRMA to comply with the order, will be implemented after consultation with Jim Knight [holding answer 8 July 2009]: The the appropriate local authorities. We do not yet know administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the how many people will receive more or less housing acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I benefit as a consequence of these reviews. have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information requested. Jobcentre Plus: Manpower Letter from Mel Groves: The Secretary of State has asked me to respond to your Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work question asking how much Jobcentre Plus has spent on (a) and Pensions how many (a) directors, (b) senior increasing the physical capacity of jobcentres, (b) acquiring new managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers and (d) office space, (c) extending existing office space and (d) converting executive support and administration staff there were existing office space to accommodate higher demand for Jobcentre in each Jobcentre Plus office in each of the last five Plus services. This is something which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. years. [280619] Jobcentre Plus are continuously reviewing existing service delivery arrangements in order to meet the challenge of the current Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a economic climate and the planned welfare reform changes for the matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, next two to three years. The latest reviews have taken account of Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. the latest known information on the expected increases in business Member with the information requested. and customer volumes. 429W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 430W

The latest review has identified that around 50% of Jobcentre effectiveness of implementation of local housing Plus offices currently face a capacity challenge. This challenge will allowance; what estimate she has made of the number be met through a range of solutions and we are unable to provide of tenants who have not passed rent to their landlord the data to fully respond to your questions (a, b, c and d) until all since the new scheme was introduced; and what of these solutions have been implemented. estimate she has made of the monetary value of that In the light of the unprecedented customer demand we have rent. [285599] secured the required funding to convert or extend our existing buildings where necessary. In addition we aim to make our services accessible to customers by providing a range of support Helen Goodman: The Department has committed to through outreach facilities, often delivering advisory and other completing a review of the LHA scheme over a two-year support on Partner’s premises. We are supplementing these measures period from the commencement of its roll-out in April by operating extended opening hours in some locations where the 2008. The aim of the review is to monitor the impact of need for this is identified locally. This includes some offices the LHA at a national level, against the original LHA opening to the public on Saturday. We will only acquire new space where all other measures are insufficient. policy objectives. To date estates work has been undertaken and completed on 18 The review will include an in-depth focus group study of our buildings at a cost of £1m, increasing our capacity to of landlords, concerning their attitudes and experiences deliver additional customer service to the public. Estates work is of the LHA, including any problems with rent arrears. planned for a further 151 buildings. This work is currently at an Further information is not available at this stage. early stage and therefore the costs are not fully known. Jobcentre Plus: Pay Members: Correspondence Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much was paid in bonuses to (a) Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and Work and Pensions (1) when she plans to reply to the delivery managers and (d) executive support and letter to her predecessor of 19 May 2009 from the right administration staff in Jobcentre Plus in each of the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to last five years. [280325] Mr J Woolley; [284725] (2) when she plans to reply to the letter to her Jim Knight: Information is only available for the most predecessor of 19 May 2009 from the right hon. recent two years requested and is shown in the following Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Miss S table. See and Mr T Gordon. [284727] Bonuses paid in 2007-08 and 2008-09 for Jobcentre Plus £000 Jim Knight: Replies were sent to my right hon. Friend Staff grade range 2007-08 2008-09 on 13 July 2009. Directors — 81 87 Senior managers Band F to below 721 582 Director level Mesothelioma Specialist and Delivery Band D to E 2,802 1,977 Managers Executive Support and Band A to C 19,505 12,042 Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Administration staff Pensions how many deaths in each age category were Total 23,109 14,688 attributable to mesothelioma in each year since 1979. Source: [285969] DWP Payroll reports and Jobcentre Plus Accounts Local Housing Allowance Jonathan Shaw: The number of mesothelioma deaths in Great Britain in each five-year age category in each Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work year from 1979 to 2006 (the latest year for which statistics and Pensions what assessment she has made of the are available) is shown in the following table.

Mesothelioma deaths by five-year age group, 1979 to 2006 10-14 15-19 20-24 25-29 30-34 35-39 40-44 45-49 50-54 55-59 60-64 65-69 70-74 75-79 80-84 85+ Total

1979 — — —2471119476462857144153434 1980 — — 1 — 1 7 11 21 45 66 69 90 74 44 18 10 457 1981 — — — 1 — 6 17 20 35 76 91 78 63 52 27 2 468 1982 — — — — 3 9 19 23 40 73 90 86 92 47 17 8 507 1983 — — 1 1 — 5 12 26 48 85 91 91 99 64 38 10 571 1984 — — 1 — — 9 13 30 44 81 118 108 98 62 47 12 623 1985 — — —1361333348911881114733518618 1986 — 1 — — 3 9 15 31 50 87 124 128 115 86 42 15 706 1987 — — —127212869991541431161006014814 1988 — — — — 1 4 20 41 64 112 134 180 145 106 39 26 872 1989 ———— 2101535661151621851191205921909 1990 — — — — 2 3 20 42 73 96 139 164 151 116 60 29 895 1991 ————— 622487011315321219312069171,023 1992 — — 1 — 1 7 21 45 92 118 162 195 194 166 67 28 1,097 1993 — — —124174986114154203234149106331,152 431W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 432W

Mesothelioma deaths by five-year age group, 1979 to 2006 10-14 15-19 20-24 25-29 30-34 35-39 40-44 45-49 50-54 55-59 60-64 65-69 70-74 75-79 80-84 85+ Total

1994 — — — 1 — — 9 52 100 123 203 234 219 166 89 50 1,246 1995 1 — —113143882152163250267194100511,317 1996 ————1384287137164239264176126751,322 1997 ————— 3 93595129192243260214121661,367 1998 — — —11373791143173251301274164951,541 1999 — — — 1 3 — 7 25 78 178 230 258 288 320 147 80 1,615 2000 — — — 1 — 3 9 26 85 148 242 250 330 292 151 96 1,633 2001 — — 1 — 1 2 11 27 94 179 242 276 332 357 216 124 1,862 2002 ————13213821812652963823311961161,868 2003 — 1 — 1 2 — 6 24 63 169 244 324 309 364 256 124 1,887 2004 ————— 2 924421562703273623712821341,979 20051 —1——23821721642663373663762791522,047 20061 — — — 1 — 1 6 18 51 144 266 363 355 386 295 170 2,056 Total 1 3 5 14 36 125 352 873 1,885 3391 4,741 5,677 5,913 5,170 3,121 1,579 32,886 1 Provisional. Source: Health and Safety Executive British Mesothelioma Register.

New Deal Schemes Notes: 1. New Deal for Disabled People reductions in 2008-09 are due to the introduction of provider-led pathways in 60 per cent. of the country. Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2. New Deal for Lone Parents reduction in 2008-09 are due to costs for In and Pensions how many people completed a new deal Work Credit being transferred from the DEL (Programme) account to programme in each of the last three years; and what the Annually Managed Expenditure (AME). 3. Expenditure figures exclude administration costs as they cannot be cost of new deal programmes was in each of those identified since 2002-03, when ring fences were removed with agreement from years. [280241] HM Treasury. 4. The figures for 2008-09 are indicative pending scrutiny and sign-off by NAO. Jim Knight: The following table gives the available 5. The source of the above data is the DWP financial systems. Figures agree data on the number of people who left the New Deal with those published in the departmental report. programmes in the last three years. The figures cover only New Deal for Young People, New Deal 25-Plus Poverty and New Deal for Partners. They include people leaving Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Work from the Jobcentre Plus and the provider-delivered elements and Pensions how many and what proportion of people of the programme. were (a) classified as living in poverty, (b) claiming jobseeker’s allowance and (c) claiming employment Total leavers from the above stated programmes and support allowance in each local authority area in each year since 2000. [285861] 2006 264,710 2007 314,990 Jim Knight [holding answer 13 July 2009]: Poverty 2008 262,190 statistics, published in the Households Below Average Notes: Income series, only allow a breakdown of the overall Time Series—year of leaving. The calendar year of leaving New Deal. Latest number and proportion of people in relative poverty at data are to November 2008. Country and Government Office Region levels or for 1. The totals for each year exclude those customers on New Deal for Lone Parents, Disabled People and New Deal 50 Plus due to the unavailability of the Inner or Outer London. This means information for data. each local authority area is not available. 2. The measure used for New Deal for Partners is Leavers (individuals) as spells The number of JSA claimants in each local authority are not available for this New Deal. They may or may not have completed. For all other programmes the figures shown are for those who have completed. since 2000 is given in the document that has been placed 3. Since June 2008, New Deal for Disabled People has ceased to operate as a in the Library. national programme. Source: Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) replaced Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate. Figures are incapacity benefit for new claims from 27 October 2008. rounded to the nearest 10. The latest quarterly data available is November 2008, The following table shows the costs of the contracted which means that a full quarter’s data are not available out element only for the three years 200-07 to 2008-09. at present. Provisional headline figures are shown in the It is not possible to split out the costs for the Jobcentre following table. Information for each local authority Plus element from normal Jobcentre Plus running costs. area is not yet available. Provisional working age claimants of ESA November 2008 £ million ESA (Thousand) Programme 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 November 2008 51,000 New Deals for Young 306.5 398.3 424.8 Notes: People and 25 Plus 1. Figure relating to ESA has been thoroughly quality assured to National New Deal for Lone 41.5 60.4 29.5 Statistics Standard, however it should be noted that this is a new benefit using a Parents new data source which may not have reached steady state in terms of operational New Deal 50 Plus 0.2 0.2 0.2 processing and retrospection. Hence ESA figures for November 2008 are provisional. New Deal for Disabled 73 78.4 34.1 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest hundred. People Source: New Deal for Partners 0.6 0.4 0.3 DWP Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. 433W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 434W

Social Security Benefits: Overpayments Unemployment: Young People

Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many overpayments of each type of and Pensions pursuant to the Draft Legislative benefit were made to claimants in each year since 1997. Programme 2009, Cm 7564, page 37, what steps will be [267319] taken from 2010 against a person aged under 25 years who has been unemployed for a year and who fails to Helen Goodman: The Department’s strategy for take up a job, work experience or a training place. measuring fraud and error focuses on providing estimates [284960] of the monetary value of fraud and error and does not provide estimates of the number of payments over or Jim Knight: From April 2010, we will require all underpaid over a particular time period so this is not young people aged 18 to 25 approaching the 12-month available. point of their claim to jobseeker’s allowance to take up one of the offers included in the YoungPerson’s Guarantee: Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work a subsidised job, training or a place on the Community and Pensions what the amount of overpayments of Task Force. each type of benefit was in each year since 1997. We know that most jobseeker’s allowance customers [267438] want to get back to work, and we expect the Young Helen Goodman: The Department’s strategy for Person’s Guarantee to help thousands of young people measuring fraud and error focuses on providing estimates into jobs. Where a customer refuses to take up the job of the monetary value of fraud and error. Estimates of or provision they are referred to without good reason, the value and the percentage of expenditure for benefits the existing jobseeker’s allowance conditionality rules that have been measured since 1997 have been placed in will apply and they may be subject to a benefit sanction. the Library. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 11 May 2009, Official Report, columns 571-73W. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the Draft Legislative Programme Unemployment 2009, Cm 7564, page 37, what her definition is of a guaranteed job which a person aged under 25 who has Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work been unemployed for a year will be required to take up. and Pensions with reference to page 37 of Building [284963] Britain’s Future (1) what criteria will be used to designate the areas of high unemployment in which Jim Knight: The budget spoke of a guaranteed offer, 50,000 new jobs will be provided; [284957] one element of which is a job. The jobs consist of 150,000 new jobs created through the Future Jobs Fund (2) what level of recruitment subsidies will be and additionally up to 100,000 existing jobs in key provided to support access to jobs by adults who have employment sectors. These will be offered alongside been unemployed for six months; who will administer work-focused training or meaningful activity via a such subsidies; and for how long such subsidies will be community task force. paid. [284958] Young Persons’ Guarantee Jim Knight: Those areas we have defined as areas of high unemployment are those where the rate of claimant Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work unemployment is at least 1.5 percentage points above and Pensions what estimate she has made of the cost to the national average. her Department of implementing the change in the The recruitment subsidy is worth £1,000. Subsidised Young Persons’ Guarantee from a voluntary to a jobs have to be for a minimum of 16 hours a week and mandatory programme. [285143] expected to last for at least six months. In England, the recruitment subsidy could also be combined with access Jim Knight: In his 2009 Budget statement, the Chancellor to Train to Gain support, which is typically worth of the Exchequer announced £1.1 billion for the delivery £1,500. of the young persons guarantee and future jobs fund. The recruitment subsidy is administered by Jobcentre Work is ongoing to determine the specific costs of each Plus. initiative under mandation, but we are confident they will be delivered from within the funding. Unemployment: Oxfordshire Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate her Department has made and Pensions who in Oxfordshire will be responsible of (a) the number of young people aged 18 to 24 years for ensuring that from 2010 every person under who will reach 12 months claiming jobseeker’s 25 years who has been unemployed for a year will be allowance, (b) the number of young people aged 18 to able to take up a guaranteed job, work experience or a 24 years who will receive assistance from the Young training place. [284962] Persons’ Guarantee and (c) how much the Young Persons’ Guarantee will cost to deliver in (i) 2009-10, Jim Knight: We expect that local authorities, partnerships (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. [285146] and organisations will work together to create job opportunities for the young people in their area. Jobcentre Jim Knight: We do not forecast unemployment figures; Plus advisers will be responsible for ensuring that customers however we will guarantee an offer for all 18 to 24-year-olds are given access to the full range of offers. approaching 12 months on jobseeker’s allowance. 435W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 436W

The young person’s guarantee is funded until 2010-11. April 20091 £250 million has been allocated for 2009-10 and £843 439 scanners. million for 2010-11. 1 Fax machines purchased in April 2009 have been removed from the contract and the figure is therefore unavailable. This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost. JUSTICE The other detailed information requested is not collected centrally and could only be obtained through a separate Debt Collection data gathering exercise which would incur disproportionate costs. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 24 April 2009, Official Report, column 958W, on debt collection, what assessment HM Courts Service made of the risk of persons in debt incurring further debts by charging Driving under Influence: Convictions bailiff payments to credit cards. [286075]

Bridget Prentice: The inclusion of credit card facilities Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice extends the range of options available for payment. (1) how many (a) men and (b) women under the age Payment routes available elsewhere were considered—there of 18 were (i) proceeded against, (ii) found guilty and is precedent for the acceptance of credit and debit cards (iii) sentenced to immediate custody for offences of in other areas of public services. In addition, payment drink driving in each year since 1997; [285786] by credit card is already well established in many magistrates (2) how many (a) men and (b) women have been (i) courts and all fixed penalty offices. Bailiffs operate proceeded against, (ii) found guilty of and (iii) under well-defined behaviour standards and there are sentenced to immediate custody for a drink-driving no incentives to favour credit cards over the other offence in each year since 1997. [285999] current methods of repayment. There are a range of routes available to any debtor who genuinely cannot afford to pay. HM Courts Service is currently evaluating Claire Ward: Available information held on prosecutions the scheme of taking payments by credit and debit and resultant convictions for driving under the influence cards. I am awaiting the results of the evaluation. of alcohol or taking drugs in England and Wales from Departmental Electronic Equipment 1997 to 2007 (latest available) are shown in the tables. The data provided covers both drink and drugs offences Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for combined, as they cannot reliably be distinguished Justice how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning separately. (c) devices and fax machines, excluding multi-function Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. devices, there are in his Department; how many there were in his Department and its predecessor in each of Table 1: Proceedings at magistrates courts, findings of guilt at all courts, sentenced to immediate custody, by gender, for persons under the age of 18 years the last three years; and if he will make a statement. for ‘driving after consuming alcohol or taking drugs’, England and Wales 1997 to [286169] 20071,2 Number of offences Mr. Wills: As part of the Department’s efforts to Offence type: driving etc. after consuming alcohol or taking drugs reduce its impact on the environment and comply with Under 18 years the Greening Government ICT strategy published in Male Female July 2008, a programme is underway across the MOJ Proceeded Findings Immediate Proceeded Findings Immediate headquarters to replace photocopiers and printers with against of guilt custody against of guilt custody multi-functional devices, which optimise the green benefits 1997 1,729 1,571 126 99 92 0 for printing and photocopying services. 1998 1,637 1,494 112 107 95 2 The following information has been obtained from 1999 1,801 1,617 134 77 71 0 central records covering MOJ headquarters, Her Majesty’s 2000 1,860 1,668 117 80 73 1 Courts Service, Tribunals Service and Office of the 2001 2,073 1,843 119 85 81 0 Public Guardian: 2002 2,066 1,825 118 115 104 0 April 2008 2003 2,170 1,936 107 114 106 0 2004 1,952 1,801 101 132 121 1 193 document scanners 2005 1,804 1,647 82 123 113 1 373 barcode scanners 2006 1,714 1,608 59 143 132 1 April 2009 2007 1,586 1,473 56 130 121 0 202 document scanners 1 It is known that for some police force areas the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than 378 barcode scanners. complete. For the National Offender Management Service 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted (NOMS), information is as follows: from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police April 2007 forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those 2,309 fax machines; 476 scanners; data are used. April 2008 Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis unit, Ministry of 2,404 fax machines; 447 scanners; Justice 437W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 438W

Table 2: Proceedings at magistrates courts, findings of guilt at all courts, Drugs: Convictions sentenced to immediate custody, by gender, for all persons for ‘driving after consuming alcohol or taking drugs’, England and Wales 1997 to 20071,2 Number of offences Offence type: Driving etc. after consuming alcohol or taking drugs Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice All ages how many people have been convicted of offences Male Female relating to the (a) possession and (b) supply of (i) Proceeded Findings Immediate Proceeded Findings Immediate cannabis and (ii) ecstasy in each year since 1997; and against of guilt custody against of guilt custody how many such people received (A) a custodial sentence and (B) the maximum sentence in each such 1997 102,808 91,803 7,090 9,371 8,426 171 year. [286044] 1998 94,636 84,604 6,757 9,406 8,509 171 1999 90,247 80,954 6,701 9,252 8,409 175 2000 86,778 77,373 6,421 9,382 8,457 154 Claire Ward: The number of defendants found guilty 2001 86,533 76,346 6,442 9,448 8,402 179 at all courts for the possession and supply of cannabis 2002 91,407 80,971 6,231 10,618 9,512 144 and ecstasy (methylenedioxymethamphetamine— 2003 94,435 83,589 6,136 11,236 10,112 172 MDMA), those sentenced to a custodial sentence and 2004 95,179 85,475 5,863 11,912 10,765 196 those receiving the maximum sentence, in England and 2005 91,592 82,870 5,207 11,890 10,849 165 Wales, from 1997 to 2007 (latest available) is shown in 2006 89,145 81,376 4,273 12,278 11,295 126 the following tables. 2007 84,345 77,529 3,780 12,627 11,694 129 1 It is known that for some police force areas the reporting of court proceedings, The statistics given relate to persons for whom these in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than offences were the principal offences for which they were complete. dealt with. For example, when a defendant has been 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted found guilty of two or more offences the principal from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for Source: which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis unit, Ministry of Justice Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn 2009.

Number of defendants found guilty at all courts and sentenced to immediate custody for possession and supply of cannabis and ecstasy in England and Wales, 1997 to 20071, 2, 3 1997 1998 1999 Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum guilty custody custody guilty custody custody guilty custody custody

Having possession of a 1,048 62 0 753 51 0 1,262 69 0 controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of a 544 410 0 304 217 0 451 338 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering to 310 228 0 246 179 0 231 173 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of a 17,275 268 1 22,643 410 1 22,623 451 1 controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of a 2,499 1,129 0 2,648 1,284 0 2,246 1,112 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin Supplying or offering to 1,414 650 1 1,442 656 0 1,168 573 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis Having possession of a 1,048 62 0 753 51 0 1,262 69 0 controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of a 544 410 0 304 217 0 451 338 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering to 310 228 0 246 179 0 231 173 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of a 17,275 268 1 22,643 410 1 22,623 451 1 controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of a 2,499 1,129 0 2,648 1,284 0 2,246 1,112 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin 439W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 440W

Number of defendants found guilty at all courts and sentenced to immediate custody for possession and supply of cannabis and ecstasy in England and Wales, 1997 to 20071, 2, 3

1997 1998 1999

Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Sentenced to:

Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum guilty custody custody guilty custody custody guilty custody custody

Supplying or offering to 1,414 650 1 1,442 656 0 1,168 573 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin

2000 2001 2002 Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum guilty custody custody guilty custody custody guilty custody custody

Having possession of a 1,955 108 0 2,493 151 0 2,165 100 0 controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of a 736 520 0 960 690 0 830 578 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering to 327 234 0 376 252 0 365 216 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of a 20,602 361 0 20,752 290 1 23,655 241 0 controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of a 1,802 808 0 1,358 618 0 1,388 547 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin Supplying or offering to 842 405 0 613 265 0 592 258 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis Having possession of a 1,955 108 0 2,493 151 0 2,165 100 0 controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of a 736 520 0 960 690 0 830 578 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering to 327 234 0 376 252 0 365 216 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of a 20,602 361 0 20,752 290 1 23,655 241 0 controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of a 1,802 808 0 1,358 618 0 1,388 547 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin Supplying or offering to 842 405 0 613 265 0 592 258 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin

2003 2004 2005 Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum guilty custody custody guilty custody custody guilty custody custody

Having possession of a 2,009 81 0 1,853 60 0 1,677 61 0 controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of a 746 461 0 603 394 0 557 342 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering to 219 127 0 172 100 0 167 91 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of a 25,714 288 0 413,320 4161 52 12,095 136 5 controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of a 1,470 475 0 1,247 420 0 993 272 0 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin 441W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 442W

2003 2004 2005 Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum Found Immediate Maximum guilty custody custody guilty custody custody guilty custody custody

Supplying or offering to 522 222 0 456 156 0 393 135 0 supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis

2006 2007 Sentenced to: Sentenced to: Found guilty Immediate custody Maximum custody Found guilty Immediate custody Maximum custody

Having possession of 1,539 62 0 1,590 70 0 a controlled drug: MDMA Having possession of 434 256 0 513 276 0 a controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA Supplying or offering 169 81 0 169 73 0 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in) MDMA Having possession of 12,536 141 2 14,073 162 6 a controlled drug: Cannabis and cannabis resin Having possession of 957 240 0 958 232 0 a controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin Supplying or offering 385 101 0 367 101 0 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis 1 These data are on the principal offence basis. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that this data has been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire Police Force were only able to submit sample data for parsons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates’ courts for the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been excluded from the table. 4 Cannabis was reclassified in January 2004 to a class C drug. Guidelines advised that offenders over the age of 18 could be given, for possession only, a ″cannabis warning″ which does not constitute a criminal record. 5 Following reclassification in January 2004 to a class C drug, statutory maximum penalty for possession of cannabis was downgraded from five to two years. The offenders shown here were sentenced to two years imprisonment although it is not known what maximum would have applied to these offenders on the day their offences took place. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform - Evidence and Analysis unit (OCJR-E&A).

Freedom of Information was not held by the Department, and in respect of a further 426, the requester was provided with advice and assistance because further information was needed in Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for order to identify the information being sought. The Justice (1) which requests for information received by remaining 1,537 requests were “resolvable”, in that it his Department under the provisions of the Freedom was possible for the Department to make a substantive of Information Act 2000 in 2008 were (a) classified as decision on whether to release the information being not resolvable and (b) refused in full; [286130] requested, 393 of these were refused in full. (2) in respect of which requests for information Where a qualified exemption applies to information received by his Department in 2008 under the sought, the Freedom of Information Act allows public provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 it bodies additional time to consider whether the balance has received permission to extend the deadline for a of the public interest falls in favour of releasing or response by more than 40 days; and what the reason for withholding that information. Of those requests initially the request for an extension was in each case. [286160] received by the Ministry of Justice during 2008 which were answered by the time the annual statistics were Mr. Wills: The Ministry of Justice publishes quarterly collected, the deadline for response was extended for and annual statistics on the performance of central more than 40 working days on 45 occasions. Government in dealing with requests made under the The 2008 statistics can be found at the following Freedom of Information Act. address: In 2008, the Ministry of Justice received 2,492 requests http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/foi-statistics- under the Act. Of these, 529 sought information which report-2008.pdf 443W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 444W

HM Prison Service: Secondment Age bands 60-65 66-70 71-75 76-80 over 80 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many staff of his Department have been seconded Female to HM Prison Service for the purposes of its bid for the 2002 17 4 2 0 0 next round of market testing. [286583] 2003 22 7 4 0 1 2004 13 6 3 1 3 Maria Eagle: 21 staff have been redeployed within 2005 21 4 1 1 1 the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) 2006 38 7 2 2 0 in response to the announcement made by my right 2007 44 9 4 1 0 hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord 2008 48 11 4 1 1 Chancellor on 27 April 2009.

Male Interim Possession Order 2002 910 370 151 40 17 2003 922 373 170 46 19 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004 934 431 184 62 19 Justice how long on average elapsed between an application 2005 1,030 435 204 62 17 for and a ruling on an Interim Possession Order in the 2006 1,090 478 241 77 19 latest period for which figures are available. [285776] 2007 1,269 549 236 78 23 Bridget Prentice: The main administrative system in 2008 1,341 607 254 102 25 the county courts of England and Wales (CaseMan) These figures have been drawn from administrative recorded that in 2008 there were 299 applications for an IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Interim Possession Order. CaseMan does not identify system, are subject to possible errors with data entry which orders following these applications were made and processing. for interim possession, were rulings on these, or were other types of orders. However, the first order will often Prisons: Drugs be for interim possession and the second a ruling on this. Of the 128 cases that involved a second order being Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice made, the average (mean) time from application to the (1) how many prisons operated a policy of five per second possession order was 45 days, while the median cent. random mandatory drug testing in each financial time was 29 days. year from 2002-03 to 2008-09; how many (a) random and (b) non-random tests were performed in such Local Government Association prisons in each such year; how many such tests were positive for (i) cannabis, (ii) opiates (excluding Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for methadone), (iii) non-prescribed methadone and (iv) Justice if he will use his powers under the Freedom of prescribed methadone; [285886] Information Act 2000 to designate the Local Government (2) how many (a) random and (b) non-random Association as a public authority for the purposes of mandatory drug tests were performed in each prison in the Act. [285775] each financial year from 2002-03 to 2008-09; and how many such tests were positive for (i) cannabis, (ii) Mr. Wills: In the Prime Minister’s statement on opiates (excluding methadone), (iii) non-prescribed Constitutional Renewal on 10 June 2009, he noted our methadone and (iv) prescribed methadone in each plans to look at broadening the application of the prison in each such year. [285887] Freedom of Information Act. We have considered carefully the responses to the Maria Eagle: The data requested are not readily public consultation on designating additional public available. I will write to the hon. Member once the authorities under the Act through a section 5 order and information is available and place a copy in the Library will publish our full response to the consultation by the of the House. summer. Probation Prisoners Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the average ratio of offenders to Probation Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Service staff in the (a) Thames Valley and (b) Milton how many (a) male and (b) female prisoners aged (i) Keynes probation area was in each of the last five between 60 and 65 years, (ii) between 66 and 70 years, years. [283830] (iii) between 71 and 75 years, (iv) between 76 and 80 years and (v) over 80 years there were in April of each Maria Eagle: The information requested is shown in year since 1997. [285789] the following tables.

Maria Eagle: The following table shows the information Staff:Offenders requested for prison population in England and Wales (a) All Thames Valley (b) All Milton Keynes as at 30 June in each year from 2002 to 2008. The data probation area staff probation office staff to provide figures for earlier years are not available 2005 1:8 1:11 centrally. 445W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 446W

Staff:Offenders Offender Managers:Offenders (a) All Thames Valley (b) All Milton Keynes (a) All Thames Valley (b) All Milton Keynes probation area staff probation office staff probation area offender probation office offender managers managers 2006 1:9 1:10 2009 1:22 1:17 2007 1:10 1:11 2008 1:9 1:14 This information has been provided by Thames Valley Probation Area. The number of offenders includes some 2009 1:8 1:12 in custody who would be subject to probation supervision on release. Offender Managers:Offenders (a) All Thames Valley (b) All Milton Keynes Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice probation area offender probation office offender what the (a) community and (b) custody caseload of managers managers the Probation Service has been in each year since 1997. 2005 1:14 1:17 [285821] 2006 1:17 1:15 2007 1:21 1:17 Maria Eagle: The total community and pre-release 2008 1:23 1:19 custodial offender caseload for England and Wales as at 31 December since 2002 was as follows:

2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Supervised in community All court orders 116,125 120,734 128,217 137,377 146,532 150,179 146,725 Post-release supervision 22,000 21,106 22,739 25,603 26,096 28,721 32,220

Supervised in custody 55,732 59,791 61,328 64,682 65,378 66,381 66,864 Note: A new system for collecting probation workload data was introduced from 1 January 2002, making comparisons with earlier years unreliable (and so data prior to 2002 are not provided here).

The 2008 figures are provisional and were published Maria Eagle: The number of further serious crimes on 30 April in the Ministry of Justice statistics bulletin committed by high risk offenders in the East of England Probation statistics quarterly brief October to December and more specifically in Suffolk, by offenders under the 2008, England and Wales. Copies can be found in the supervision of Probation areas in the region are as Libraries of the House. The final 2008 data will be follows: published in Offender Management Caseload Statistics 2008 on 31 July. 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

These figures have been drawn from administrative East of England 10 3 3 IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Suffolk 0 0 0 system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. These figures relate to those offenders who were assessed as at high or very high risk of causing serious Probation: Essex harm through the Offender Assessment System who were subsequently convicted of a serious further offence, committed while the offender was under probation Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice supervision in the community. These figures include what funding his Department allocated to the Essex offences of wounding with intent to cause grievous Probation Service in each of the last five years. [285729] bodily harm (section 18), although this offence was removed from the criteria of a serious further offence Maria Eagle: The grant allocation to Essex probation on 1 December 2008. area for the last five years is as follows: Probation: Staffordshire £ Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) 2008-09 20,147,200 what assessment he has made of the likely effects on 2007-08 19,091,300 levels of co-operation between the Probation Service 2006-07 18,322,200 and (a) the police, (b) HM Courts Service and (c) the 2005-06 16,923,000 Crown Prosecution Service in the Staffordshire 2004-05 15,494,300 Probation Area of the proposed merger between Staffordshire Probation Service and West Midlands Probation: Reoffenders Probation Service; [285657] (2) what assessment he has made of the likely effects Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on the level of management at which decisions relating how many high-risk offenders committed further to the operation of the Probation Service in Staffordshire serious crimes in (a) the East of England and (b) are taken of the proposed merger between Staffordshire Suffolk while under the supervision of the Probation Probation Service and West Midlands Probation Service; Service in each of the last three years. [286401] [285658] 447W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 448W

(3) what estimate he has made of the likely change in Remand in Custody: Ethnic Groups (a) administrative and (b) staffing costs of the probation service in Staffordshire consequent on the Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice proposed merger between Staffordshire Probation what steps he is taking to reduce the proportion of Service and West Midlands Probation Service. [285659] those receiving a custodial remand who are black boys; and if he will make a statement. [285660] Maria Eagle: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is aware of the proposed merger of the Maria Eagle: In addition to conducting two studies Staffordshire and West Midlands probation areas. A of its own to map the level of young people from an joint application is anticipated in July for trust status, ethnic minority background within the youth justice although this may be delayed to later in the year. system and their particular needs, the Youth Justice Board is supporting a study funded by the Economic Any merger will require the continuation of very and Social Research Council and the Equality and strong links with other criminal justice agencies, including Human Rights Commission to consider evidence relating the police, HM Courts Service and the Crown Prosecution to the representation of young people from an ethnic Service. This will include continued active participation minority background within the youth justice system. in the Staffordshire Local Criminal Justice Board public This research will inform the work the Youth Justice protection arrangements. The present chief probation Board and partner organisations are engaged in to officer for Staffordshire has met all the relevant agencies address the needs of black and other ethnic minority and explained the importance of local delivery and young people. co-working in any trust arrangement. The proposed merger was discussed at the Staffordshire Criminal Justice Remand in Custody: Young People Board meeting on the 28 April 2009 chaired by the then chief constable of Staffordshire Chris Sims. In a subsequent letter he said that members understood the merger and Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice indicated strong support for the proposal based on local (1) what steps his Department is taking to reduce the delivery units with devolved responsibilities. The Secretary number of people under the age of 18 years who are of State will continue to require co-terminus arrangements remanded in custody; and if he will make a statement; to be maintained with Staffordshire criminal justice [285661] agencies, should a merger of Staffordshire and West (2) if he will commission research into the reasons Midlands probation areas be approved. for the increase in the number of people under the age of 18 years of age remanded in custody since 2000; and The Secretary of State in approving any trust application if he will make a statement. [285662] needs to be assured that management is properly devolved to the level of local delivery units. In the case of Staffordshire Maria Eagle: Figures provided by the Youth Justice these units will be aligned will Staffordshire county and Board indicate that the number of young people under Stoke on Trent. The Secretary of State would expect to 18 remanded in custody or to local authority secure see a trust appoint to such management units staff at care has fallen significantly over the last few years. Since assistant chief officer level who are both experienced the peak year of 2003-04, court-ordered secure remands and competent to oversee performance and partnership have fallen by 40 per cent. and remands in custody by working. In addition there will be a single chief executive 21 per cent. and chair of joint Staffordshire and West Midlands Board who will be responsible for ensuring performance In each particular case it is for the court to decide, in across the trust and effective local partnership in all the the light of all the circumstances, whether to grant bail, local delivery units and to ensure the efficient and to remand the young person to the care of a local effective stewardship of public funds, working under a authority or, if the young person is aged 17, to remand contract to the director of offender management for the him or her in custody. (Some boys aged 15 and 16 may West Midlands region. also be remanded in custody.) In the Youth Crime Action Plan, we indicated our The Secretary of State has made it clear in statements intention to strengthen the response to youth crime at a and answers to previous questions that any proposals local level, by supporting local authorities to provide on probation trust arrangements should come from earlier interventions and so reduce the need for custodial local areas and not be provided either regionally or places. YouthOffending Teams have a range of non-secure nationally. Individual probation boards, including remand options. These include remand fostering; bail Staffordshire, would have to consider the merits of support and curfew schemes; and the Intensive Supervision merger based on business cases that would address both and Surveillance Programme, which includes electronic administrative and staffing costs. monitoring. As the Secretary of State has yet to receive an application for the trust status by the combined area it is not Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice possible to make a detailed estimate of changes to both if he will commission research into the reasons for the administrative and staffing costs. However, any such reduction in the use of non-secure remand to local proposal would have to demonstrate that front line authority accommodation for those under the age of delivery of probation service duties and responsibilities 18 years of age since 2000; and if he will make a to protect the public and reduce re-offending will be statement. [285663] maintained whilst overheads, administration and management costs would be reviewed. No budgets have Maria Eagle: Figures provided by the Youth Justice been allocated to Staffordshire or West Midlands probation Board indicate that the peak year for remands of under-18s areas for the period beyond March 2010. in the period in question was 2004-05. Between then 449W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 450W and 2007-08, the total figure for remands of all kinds— provide this information would require a manual secure and non-secure—fell by 33 per cent. Non-secure interrogation of individual files and this would incur remands to local authority care fell by 36 per cent. The disproportionate cost. Youth Justice Board is monitoring these trends and is Between 1 January 1999 and 30 June 2008, 81,743 exploring ways of further incentivising local authorities offenders were recalled to custody. to provide alternatives to custody. Sentencing Reoffenders Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many and what percentage of people convicted of Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice selling tobacco to a minor received (a) a fine, (b) a how many offences were committed by offenders community sentence, (c) a custodial sentence and (d) recalled from release on licence but not yet returned to an alternative punishment in each year since 1997; and custody in each of the last 12 years; and what offences what the (i) average, (ii) smallest and (iii) largest fine were committed in such circumstances in each such was in each such year. [285763] year. [286276] Claire Ward: The available information is shown in Maria Eagle: The number of offences committed by the following table. Data for 2008 will not be available offenders who have been recalled to prison and who until “Sentencing Statistics 2008” is published later in have yet to be apprehended is not recorded centrally. To the year.

Offenders sentenced and disposals for selling tobacco to a minor and the average maximum and minimum fine, 1997 to 2007 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Fine (number) 90 115 90 113 74 67 82 50 56 51 49 Fine (percentage) 80.4 89.1 88 2 84.3 82.2 87.0 88.2 87.7 81.2 89.5 98.0

Community Sentence 00000100000 (number) Community Sentence 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 (percentage)

Custodial Sentence (number) 00000000000 Custodial Sentence 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 (percentage)

Discharge (number) 22 14 12 21 16 9 11 7 13 5 1 Discharge (percentage) 19.6 10.9 11.8 15.7 17.8 11.7 11.8 12.3 18.8 8.8 2.0

Otherwise Dealt With 00000000010 (number) Otherwise Dealt With 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.8 0.0 (percentage) Total 112 129 102 134 90 77 93 57 69 57 50

Maximum Fine (£) 1,250 2,000 1,500 2,000 2,000 2,000 1,700 1,500 2,000 1,650 2,500 Minimum Fine (£) 40 10 10 50 50 50 50 35 30 40 60 Average (£) 238 226 237 349 301 283 322 274 328 330 324 Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Source: OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice.

The table shows the total number of persons sentenced FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE to a fine, community sentence, custodial sentence or an alternative punishment for each year since 1997. The Belarus: Human Rights data also shows the average maximum and minimum fine imposed on those sentenced for selling tobacco to a Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State minor in each year. This data is presented on the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to principal offence basis. Where an offender has been the answer of 23 March 2009, Official Report, columns sentenced for more than one offence, the principal 20-21W, on Belarus: human rights, what reports he has offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence was received of the death sentence passed in Belarus on imposed. Where the same sentence has been imposed 29 June 2009; and if he will make a statement. [285359] for two or more offences, the principal offence is the one for which the statutory maximum is most severe. Chris Bryant: The EU raised this case with the Belarusian authorities on 8 July 2009. We are disappointed that the death penalty was imposed following earlier efforts by 451W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 452W the Belarusian authorities to reduce its use. Belarus is The figures for 2008 are eight abstentions and zero the last country in Europe to use the death penalty; its votes against. The same report shows that 270 legislative abolition would be an important step in improving acts were adopted in 2008. EU—Belarus relations. The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe passed a resolution on 23 June Departmental Accountancy 2009 supporting the lifting of the suspension of Belarus’ special guest status after a moratorium on the execution Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of death penalties. and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects to publish Colombia: Overseas Aid his Department’s resource accounts for 2008-09. [287334]

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Resource Accounts 2008-09 were laid before Parliament Written Ministerial Statement of 30 March 2009, and published as a combined document with the Official Report, columns 40-42WS, on Colombia, on Departmental Report 2009 on 30 June 2009. what projects the £250,000 which has been allocated to tackle impunity will be spent; and how much will be Diplomatic Service: Finance allocated to each such project. [286414] Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: Tackling impunity in Colombia is a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to priority for our embassy in Bogota, and over £250,000 the public purse of his Department’s consular services will be spent over the next two years on the following was in each of the last 12 years. [286156] projects: investigating forced disappearances (£13,000) Chris Bryant: Consular Services are funded from fees identifying victims of forced disappearance (£39,000) and not from general taxation. Our aim is to ensure that strengthening access to justice for internally displaced persons we cover our costs from fee income. The exception is (£21,000) capital funds which are funded from tax. However the Impunity in the Context of Conflict project (£60,000) yearly cost of capital, that is depreciation and interest, a UN Tackling Impunity project (£210,000) is covered by fee income. adjustment proposals for the new Accusatorial Criminal Justice Cost of assistance to UK citizens abroad is covered System (£29,000) by a levy of approx. £15 on all passports sold in the UK Convention for the Protection of All Persons from by the Identity and Passport Service and overseas by Enforced Disappearance the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO). For around £1.50 a year, every British passport holder has at their disposal a global network of professionals who Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for often provide the first line of support when things go Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress the wrong. Government has made in its assessment of whether to ratify the International Convention for the Protection Each crisis response, as agreed by HM Treasury of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance. [283965] (HMT), which costs greater than £150,000, is funded from the Emergency Disaster Reserve (EDR). The EDR Mr. Ivan Lewis: The work being undertaken within funds are made up of a small fee levied on the passport Government to examine the potential impact of the price of approximately £1. These funds are held by the Convention against Enforced Disappearance on the law Treasury. The FCO has to make a substantive case to of the UK is ongoing. HMT to access these funds. This includes analysing the extent to which common For a fee we also issue passports overseas, as well as law provisions may need to be replicated in statute law, emergency and temporary passports. the creation of one or more new criminal offences, and We charge for legalisation services to business and whether the UK required any reservations or declarations the public in the UK and overseas. upon ratification. It is now clear that primary legislation There are another 60 notarial services that we provide would be necessary to permit ratification if the Government overseas. Examples include birth and death registrations. decide to pursue this course of action. This would be The cost of Consular Services for the last eight years introduced when parliamentary time allowed. is shown as follows. The cost of collecting data beyond Council of Ministers this period would be prohibitive, as it is not available on our current systems. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign This excludes the cost of crisis activity which is and Commonwealth Affairs on how many occasions funded directly from the Treasury: the Government has (a) voted against and (b) abstained on a proposal at the Council of Ministers for Period Cost (£ million) which a qualified majority has been obtained. [277097] 2008-09 126.4 2007-08 123.3 Chris Bryant: The Council of the European Union 2006-07 104.1 publicises these figures on their website. These can be 2005-06 85.1 found at: 2004-05 93.3 http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ 2003-04 69.9 showPage.aspx?id=551&lang=EN 453W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 454W

India: Females Period Cost (£ million) 2002-03 60.6 Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2001-02 56.3 and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department has had discussions with the Indian government on Consular is continually looking at ways to bring costs sexual violence against Dalit women in the last 12 months; into closer alignment with income by delivering value-for and if he will make a statement. [285343] money services, promoting efficiencies and reviewing its fees. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office have not discussed sexual violence against Dalit Eritrea: Prisoners women directly with the Indian Government in the last 12 months. However, UK officials in New Delhi have Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign actively participated in the ongoing EU dialogue with and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations the Indian authorities on minority rights, including he has made to the Eritrean government on arrests of Dalit related issues. UK nationals in Eritrea; and how many such people International Trade have been arrested there in the last five years. [286456] Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ivan Lewis: From our consular records we are Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment aware of four British nationals who have been arrested his Department has made of the UK’s business or detained in Eritrea since 2004. competitiveness in international markets in each of the In one case we were informed of the detention only last three years; and against which competitors each after the individual had been released. In the other three assessment was made. [284023] cases we contacted the authorities to clarify the situation and requested consular access. Chris Bryant [holding answer 3 July 2009]: I refer the Of those three cases, two were subsequently released. hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Friend We have been unable to confirm the release of the other the Minister of State for Department for Business, individual, as the Eritrean authorities do not acknowledge Innovation and Skills, Ian Lucas, on 13 July 2009, the UK’s interest in the person concerned (a dual British- Official Report, column 190-91W. Eritrean national resident in Eritrea) as a British national, Israel: Egypt and will not discuss the case with consular staff, despite representations. Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent India representations he has made to the government of (a) Israel and (b) Egypt on the transport of goods into Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Gaza through crossing points. [286842] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps to assist the Indian government in implementing Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK is extremely concerned with witness protection programmes for Christians in the current humanitarian situation in Gaza. It is vital Orissa. [285353] that aid reaches the people in who need it. We will continue to press the Israeli Government into easing Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have no plans to discuss with the border restrictions and ensuring there is better humanitarian Indian Government the protection of Christians called access into the area. My right hon. Friend the Foreign as witnesses in trials relating to the recent violence in Secretary made this clear in his meeting with the Israeli Orissa. Defence Minister—Ehud Barak on 6 July 2009 and also The EU maintains a constructive dialogue with the in his conversation with Israeli Foreign Minister—Avigdor Indian authorities about human rights and minority Lieberman on 30 June 2009. rights issues, which includes the situation in Orissa and My predecessor Bill Rammell raised the issue of its neighbouring states following the violence in 2008. access through the Rafah crossing for humanitarian aid Officials from our high commission have an active part providers with the Egyptian Government when he was in these discussions. in Egypt on 21 May 2009. The Egyptian Government have told us that all aid to Gaza from Egypt should be India: Christianity channelled through the Egyptian Red Crescent. Kenya Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign representations to the government of India to urge that and Commonwealth Affairs if he will instigate a public Mr Manoj Pradhan, Member of the Legislative inquiry into the conduct of the British colonial Assembly in Orissa, is brought to trial on the charges administration in Kenya during the 1950s emergency which have been made against him. [286934] in that country; what recent representations his Department has received on the treatment of Kenyans Mr. Ivan Lewis: Since this is a legal matter for the by the British colonial administration in this period relevant Indian authorities we have no plans to raise from (a) (i) governments and (ii) citizens of Kenya and this bilaterally with the Indian government. (b) others; and if he will make a statement. [286846] 455W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 456W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: There is no public inquiry planned Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 14 July 2009]: into the conduct of the British colonial administration Representatives from our high commission in Colombo in Kenya during the 1950s. regularly visit the camps for internally-displaced persons We are aware that a group of Mau Mau veterans, in northern Sri Lanka, most recently on 16 to 18 June backed by the Kenya Human Rights Commission, plan 2009. We take every available opportunity to urge the to sue the Government for alleged human rights abuses Sri Lankan Government to ensure the camps meet carried out by the Kenyan colonial administration during international standards. We continue to urge the the emergency period. Our high commissioner in Nairobi Government of Sri Lanka to work in partnership with met their representatives before they travelled to London the UN, the International Committee of the Red Cross last month and noted their right to take their case to the and other humanitarian agencies to address the ongoing courts. They have also written to my right hon. Friend needs of internally displaced persons and to ensure they the Prime Minister on this issue. are able to return to their homes as soon as possible. Nuclear Weapons

Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for CABINET OFFICE Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s policies on nuclear non-proliferation of the recent Eating Disorders: Death agreement between Russian President Medvedev and US President Obama on nuclear arms reduction. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet [286718] Office how many deaths resulting from an eating disorder were recorded in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, Mr. Ivan Lewis: We welcome the ‘joint understanding’ (d) 2007 and (e) 2008; and if she will make a by Presidents Obama and Medvedev on 6 July 2009 to statement. [286696] reduce the US and Russian nuclear arsenals to below 1,700 warheads each and their commitment to co-operate Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls more closely on non-proliferation. within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. A reduction in the size of US and Russian arsenals is I have asked the Authority to reply. one of the conditions necessary for moving towards a Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: world free from nuclear weapons. The UK will continue to work towards this long-term goal and the strengthening As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many deaths resulting from an eating of all three pillars of the nuclear non-proliferation disorder were recorded in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, (d) 2007 regime, while tackling the issue of nuclear security. and (e) 2008. (286696) Sri Lanka: India The table attached provides the number of deaths where an eating disorder was the underlying cause of death, in England and Wales, from 2004 to 2008. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his It is likely that these figures underestimate the actual number of deaths where an eating disorder was involved. This is because Department’s policy is on anti-religious conversion deaths registered after a coroner’s inquest usually state the immediate laws in (a) Sri Lanka and (b) India. [285354] physical condition which caused death as the underlying cause, and not any mental or behavioural disorder which may have led Mr. Ivan Lewis: We continue to monitor religious to that condition. freedom in India and Sri Lanka. A wide range of issues Table 1: Number of deaths where an eating disorder was the underlying including religious freedom were raised at the last round cause of death,1 England and Wales,2 2004-083,4 of the EU-India Human Rights Dialogue which took Persons place in New Delhi on 27 February 2009. In addition Deaths the Government work bilaterally with the Government of India in supporting efforts to tackle human rights 2004 16 issues. We regularly raise a wide range of human rights 2005 16 issues with the Sri Lankan Government including any 2006 21 legislation that reduces religious freedoms protected by 2007 17 international human rights law. We are aware that the 2008 24 draft “Forcible Conversions Bill”, relating to religious 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of freedoms Sri Lanka, is currently awaiting further discussion Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) code F50 (Eating disorders). in the Sri Lankan Parliament. The EU expressed its 2 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. concern at the draft Bill in a statement on 23 February 4 2009. Figures for deaths registered in 2008 are provisional. Sri Lanka: Politics and Government Employment

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what visits have Office what proportion of the working age population been made to Tamil refugee camps in Sri Lanka by in employment in the UK consisted of (a) UK representatives of his Department in the last 12 months; nationals, (b) UK born people, (c) non-UK nationals, and what recent representations he has made to the (d) non-UK EU nationals and (e) non-EU nationals government of Sri Lanka on the operation of those in (i) each year since 1992 and (ii) the last four quarters camps. [286764] for which figures are available. [286460] 457W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 458W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Employment: North East within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: Office (1) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your (b) South Tyneside and (c) the North East have Parliamentary Question asking what proportion of the working claimed jobseeker’s allowance in each year since 1997; age population in employment in the UK consisted of (a) UK [286607] nationals, (b) UK born people, (c) non-UK nationals, (d) non-UK (a) EU nationals and (e) non-EU nationals in (i) each year since 1992 (2) how many people have been unemployed for and (ii) the last four quarters for which figures are available. up to six months, (b) between six and 12 months and (286460) (c) 12 months and over in (i) Jarrow constituency, (ii) The available information requested is shown in the attached South Tyneside and (iii) the North East in each year table. The estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey since 1997; [286340] (LFS). As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are (3) how many people were in (a) part-time and (b) subject to a margin of uncertainty. temporary work in (i) Jarrow constituency, (ii) South The figures in the table are derived from the LFS microdata Tyneside and (iii) the North East in each year since which are weighted using the official population estimates published 1997; [286341] in autumn 2007. They are not entirely consistent with the figures published in the monthly Labour Market Statistics Statistical (4) how many people were self-employed in (a) Bulletin, or the migrant worker figures published every quarter, Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside and (c) the which are weighted using more up-to-date population estimates. North East in each year since 1997. [286342] Proportion of working age1 population in employment by nationality and country of birth. Three month periods ending March 1995 to 2008; three month periods Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls ending June, September, December and March, 2008 to 2009. United Kingdom, within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. not seasonally adjusted I have asked the Authority to reply. Percentage UK UK Non-UK Non-UK EU Non-EU Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: nationals born nationals nationals2 nationals As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking how may people have claimed 1995 97 93 3 2 2 jobseeker’s allowance in (a) Jarrow constituency (b) South Tyneside Q1 and (c) the North East in each year since 1997; how many people 1996 97 93 3 2 2 have been unemployed for (a) up to six months, (b) between six Q1 and 12 months and (c) 12 months and over in (i) Jarrow constituency, 1997 96 93 3 2 2 Q1 (ii) South Tyneside and (iii) the Norm East in each year since 1997; how many people have been in (a) part-time and (b) 1998 96 92 4 2 2 Q1 temporary work in (i) Jarrow constituency, (ii) South Tyneside and (iii) the North East in each year since 1997; and how many 1999 96 92 4 2 2 Q1 people have been self-employed in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside and (c) the North East in each year since 2000 96 92 4 2 2 Q1 1997.(286607,286340,286341,286342) 2001 96 92 4 2 3 The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour Q1 market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population 2002 95 91 5 2 3 Survey (APS) and its predecessor the Annual Labour Force Q1 Survey (LFS). The number of people claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance 2003 95 91 5 2 3 is compiled for Jobcentre Plus administrative data. Q1 Table 1 shows the number of people claiming Jobseeker’s 2004 95 91 5 2 3 Allowance resident in the requested geographies for June of each Q1 year since 1997. The latest data for May 2009 has also been 2005 94 90 6 2 4 provided. Q1 Table 2 shows the number of people unemployed by the 2006 94 89 6 3 4 Q1 duration of unemployment resident in the North East. Estimates for Jarrow parliamentary constituency and South Tyneside are 2007 93 88 7 3 4 Q1 not available. Estimates are also not available for the 12 month 2008 92 87 8 4 4 period ending February 1998. Q1 Table 3 shows the number of people in part-time and temporary 2008 92 87 8 4 4 work resident in the requested geographies. Estimates of temporary Q2 workers for the Jarrow parliamentary constituency are not available. 2008 92 87 8 4 4 Estimates of temporary workers are also not available for the Q3 12 month period ending February 1998. 2008 92 87 8 4 5 Table 4 shows the number of self-employed people resident in Q4 the requested geographies in each year. 2009 92 87 8 4 4 Q1 National and local area estimates for many labour market 1 Men aged 16-94 and women aged 16-59. statistics, including employment and unemployment are available 2 The EU comprises Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, from the NOMIS website at: Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk. The A8 (Czech Republic Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia) joined the EU on 1 May 2004 and are included from 2005 Q1 Table 1: The number of people claiming Jobseekers’ Allowance resident in onwards. Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU on 1 January 2007 and are Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside and the North East included from 2007 Q1 onwards. Thousand Note: The above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment Jarrow South Tyneside North East (eg hotels, boarding houses, hostels mobile home sites etc.). Source: June 1997 3 7 91 Labour Force Survey June 1998 3 6 81 459W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 460W

Table 1: The number of people claiming Jobseekers’ Allowance resident in Table 3: The number of people in part-time and temporary work resident in Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside and the North East Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside and the North East Thousand Thousand Jarrow South Tyneside North East Jarrow South Tyneside North East 12 months Part- Temporary Part- Temporary Part- Temporary June 1999 3 7 80 ending time work time work time work June 2000 3 6 72 June 2001 2 5 61 December 8 — 16 4 293 54 2005 June 2002 2 5 58 December 9 — 15 4 285 67 June 2003 2 4 53 2006 June 2004 2 4 45 December 10 — 18 4 297 67 June 2005 2 4 45 2007 June 2006 2 4 50 December ***8 ****— **15 ***4 *288 *63 20081 June 2007 2 4 48 ‘—’ = not available June 2008 2 4 49 1 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an May 2009 3 7 86 indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. Source: Guide to Quality: Jobcentre Plus administrative system The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within Table 2: The number of people unemployed by duration of unemployment +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we resident in the North East would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Thousand Key Coefficient of Variation (CV)(%) Statistical Robustness ≤ 12 months Less than 6 6 months to less 12 months or *0=CV 5 Estimates are considered precise ≤ ending months than 12 months more **5=CV 10 Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV≤ 20 Estimates are considered acceptable February 1998 — — — **** CV 20 Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of February 1999 47 14 33 communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home February 2000 53 22 33 sites etc.) February 2001 47 16 28 Source: Annual Population Survey/Annual Labour Force Survey February 2002 46 14 25 Table 4: The number of people self employed resident in Jarrow constituency, February 2003 44 12 21 South Tyneside and the North East February 2004 50 10 18 Thousand December 2004 44 10 16 12 months December 2005 42 11 16 ending Jarrow South Tyneside North East December 2006 50 14 21 February 1998 3 5 97 December 2007 44 13 19 February 1999 3 5 100 December 20081 *56 **15 **23 February 2000 2 5 99 ‘—’ = not available February 2001 2 4 92 1 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. February 2002 2 5 82 Guide to Quality: February 2003 2 4 89 The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the February 2004 2 4 89 smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we December 2004 2 4 95 would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. December 2005 3 5 105 Key Coefficient of Variation (CV)(%) Statistical Robustness *0=CV≤ 5 Estimates are considered precise December 2006 2 5 103 **5=CV≤ 10 Estimates are considered reasonably precise December 2007 4 6 107 ≤ *** 10 = CV 20 Estimates are considered acceptable December 20081 ***4 ***6 *112 **** CV 20 Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes 1 It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. sites etc.) Guide to Quality: Source: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the Annual Population Survey/Annual Labour Force Survey smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we Table 3: The number of people in part-time and temporary work resident in would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside and the North East Key Coefficient of Variation (CV)(%) Statistical Robustness Thousand *0=CV≤ 5 Estimates are considered precise ≤ Jarrow South Tyneside North East **5=CV 10 Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV≤ 20 Estimates are considered acceptable 12 months Part- Temporary Part- Temporary Part- Temporary **** CV 20 Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes ending time work time work time work It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home February 11 — 18 — 281 — sites etc.) 1998 Source: February 9 — 15 5 270 79 Annual Population Survey/Annual Labour Force Survey 1999 February 9 — 15 5 286 76 2000 February 9 — 16 4 278 80 2001 Government Departments: Recruitment February 10 — 18 5 276 78 2002 Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet February 9 — 16 5 277 71 Office what recent steps her Department has taken to 2003 ensure that recruitment agencies which advertise vacancies February 9 — 16 5 279 65 2004 on behalf of the Government do not require candidates December 7 — 13 4 284 58 to have obtained security clearance to obtain an interview. 2004 [285689] 461W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 462W

Tessa Jowell: It is government policy that an existing CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES security clearance should not be specified as a pre-requisite for recruitment, except in certain defined circumstances. Academies The Cabinet Office has regular contact with the Recruitment and Employers Confederation and the Association of Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Professional Staffing Companies to ensure that its Children, Schools and Families what assessment was membership, which includes recruitment agencies, is made of the effectiveness of the City Technology aware of the policy. College programme when developing Government policy on academies; and if he will make a statement. [285428] Health Mr. Coaker: There was no formal assessment of City Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Technology Colleges used in the development of the Office what statistical indices have been used to Academies programme. However, the contribution of measure levels of happiness and well-being in the UK external sponsors, the use of greater freedoms and in the last 30 years. [286294] innovation in learning and ICT were all characteristics of CTCs that influenced the development of the Academies programme. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. All but three of the original CTCs have converted to I have asked the authority to reply. Academy status, and a number have sponsored new Academy projects. Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Question asking what statistical indices have been Children, Schools and Families if he will assess the used to measure levels of happiness and well being in the UK in effect of policies on (a) diplomas and (b) academies the past 30 years. (286294) on (i) local democratic accountability of the education The general approach to measuring happiness is to assess life system and (ii) levels of educational inequality. [285431] satisfaction, both overall and for particular aspects of life, by surveys. The question “How satisfied are you with your life overall these days?”, with a response scale of 1-10, has been Mr. Coaker: We are currently still in the first year of included in a number of studies over time, including the British diploma teaching so it is too early to assess its impact Household Panel Survey, managed by the Institute for Economic on local accountability. Each Diploma line of learning and Social Research at Essex University. Summary results from will be evaluated for the first three years after roll out these studies have been reported in the Office for National Statistics’ and we will analyse the findings of the evaluation to Social Trends publication and elsewhere. ensure the implementation is having a positive impact The Department for Food and Rural Affair’s Sustainable on the education system. Development Indicator set now includes wellbeing measures, One of the main aims of Diplomas is to widen including survey results on life satisfaction. educational participation among young people. Data The new economics foundation (nef) has calculated a Happy on the types of learners taking up Diploma places will Planet Index which combines environmental impact with wellbeing be available for analysis later this year, and this will help to measure the environmental efficiency with which people in the UK and in other countries live long and happy lives. The nef has us to identify and address any areas of inequality. also published National Accounts of Wellbeing, which use a With regards to academies and local accountability, variety of indicators to reflect aspects of how people experience all academies must have a local authority governor and their lives. a parent governor. Governing bodies are bound by law The ONS is currently reviewing these and other approaches to to act in the best interest of the academy, its pupils and measuring the wellbeing of UK society, to complement the long- the local community. They must set out their proposals established measures of economic wellbeing published regularly for working with other schools and the wider community in the economic National Accounts. We have placed a number of in their annual development plan. All academies are reports and links on the ONS website, at: inspected by Ofsted on the same basis as other schools, http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ and their results are published along with all maintained Product.asp?vlnk=15205&Pos=1&ColRank=1&Rank=240 schools. A major goal of the academies programme is to Lord Ashcroft: Taxation tackle educational inequality and there are a number of measures that guarantee this is achieved. To ensure a fair admissions process, academies, like maintained schools, Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the are required to follow the School Admissions Code. The Cabinet Office whether her Department has received independent PricewaterhouseCoopers evaluation said provisional recommendations from the Information that there was no evidence that academies have a negative Commissioner in relation to the request by the hon. impact on neighbouring schools in terms of pupil profile Member for Pendle under the Freedom of Information and therefore not created any inequalities. Act 2000 for information on the assurances given by The School Census shows that the proportion of Lord Ashcroft on his tax status prior to his elevation to pupils with special education needs (with and without the peerage. [285679] statements) in academies is 29.5 per cent.—compared to an average of 19.2 per cent. for all schools. The Tessa Jowell [holding answer 13 July 2009]: It is not proportion of pupils known to be eligible for free Cabinet Office practice to comment on ongoing school meals in academies is 33.8 per cent.—compared investigations by the Information Commissioner. to an average of 14.4 per cent. for maintained secondary 463W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 464W schools. Between 2007 and 2008 the rate of improvement the original expectations of project completion dates were for pupils gaining 5 A*-C grades (including English and over-optimistic, given the scale of the programme and the maths) that attend academies and are eligible for free aspiration of achieving a step-change in educational outcomes school meals has been double the national improvement from the capital investment; rate, 5.3 percentage points compared to 2.4 percentage many local authorities in the early waves of BSF found identifying points. and resourcing the necessary project management skill sets to deliver the programme more challenging than expected; many of the local authorities selected for the early waves of BSF also had the biggest challenges to manage, were pioneering Building Schools for the Future Programme the processes, and were at the forefront of resolving unexpected difficulties with innovative solutions. Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Current plans indicate that all funds made available Schools and Families what criteria Partnerships for to the BSF programme since 2005 will have been allocated Schools use to assess the readiness of local authorities to projects by March 2011. to join the reformed Building Schools for the Future programme. [286808] Child Minding

Mr. Coaker: A Readiness to Deliver assessment covers: Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for educational transformation; project deliverability; Children, Schools and Families what changes have investment strategy; affordability and value for money; been made to the methods of recording the number of local resources and capability; and benefits realisation. places provided by childminders since September 2008. In essence, local authorities have to prove that they are [281480] ready to deliver a clear education vision and estate strategy that will show how the investment through Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 19 June 2009]: These Building Schools for the Future will help improve education are matters for Ofsted. The Chief Inspector, Christine for every young person and deliver best value to the Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of public purse. her reply has been placed in the House Libraries. Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 6 July 2009: Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families with reference to paragraph 6.21, Your parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Her page 121, of Budget 2009, what his most recent Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. assessment is of progress made by the Building Schools The method used by Ofsted to record numbers of childcare for the Future (BSF) programme in changing its places changed with the introduction of the Early YearsFoundation Stage (EYFS) in September 2008. Ofsted now holds two registers, procurement model so as to enable BSF projects with the Early Years Register (for settings providing for children Partnership for Schools to join the programme on a between birth and aged five) and the Childcare Register. The gradual basis. [286892] Childcare Register has two components, the compulsory register (for settings providing for children aged between five and seven) and the voluntary register (for settings providing for children Mr. Coaker: In March this year, we announced the older than aged eight). These registers replace the single register revised national programme for Building Schools for previously held for settings providing for children between birth the Future (BSF), in line with the proposals of our and aged seven. consultation last year, based on the revised expressions For providers only registered on the Early Years Register, or of interest which authorities had proposed, including those registered on both the Early YearsRegister and the compulsory initial projects from authorities which have not yet part of the Childcare Register, the only change is to the breakdown started in BSF, and prioritised on the educational and of age ranges recorded on the new registers. social need of schools in the projects. Partnerships for For those providers only registered on the voluntary part of Schools (PfS) then had meetings with prioritised authorities the Childcare Register, there is no maximum number of places to discuss their readiness to deliver. A total of 23 stipulated. The maximum number of places a setting on the other authorities provided evidence of their readiness to deliver, registers can offer is set out in their conditions of registration. and PfS is evaluating this evidence with a view to A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo recommending to me the first projects which are fully MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, ready to start in BSF. We aim shortly to give further and will be placed in the library of both Houses. details. Children: Databases Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families with reference to paragraph 14, Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for page 8 of the National Audit Office report on Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer Financial management in the Department for of 24 June 2009, Official Report, column 989W, on Children, Schools and Families, HC 267, Session children: databases, by what date he expects all local 2008-09, for what reasons the Building Schools for the authority ContactPoint teams to have been given Future programme has an under spend of £2.4 billion. access to ContactPoint. [283239] [286898] Dawn Primarolo: All local authorities have had access Mr. Coaker: There are three key reasons for the to ContactPoint for shielding records, however, full delays in some of the early local authority Building access to ContactPoint will not be given to all local Schools for the Future (BSF) projects which caused an authorities until the ContactPoint management teams underspend: have completed the necessary training. 465W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 466W

All Early Adopter local authorities and Early Adopter Plan, and to appoint an Improvement Board with an national partners have completed such training. For independent Chair, Tony Elson, to oversee improvements. local authorities and national partners that are not On 1 April, the council appointed Gareth Williams, early adopters, we expect ContactPoint management Director of Children’s Services (DCS) for Leicestershire teams to be trained between June and August, so that county council, as interim DCS for Doncaster on a six all local authority ContactPoint management teams month secondment. The council has prepared an should have access to ContactPoint by autumn. Improvement Plan, which is being implemented. DCSF is supporting the council to secure a new senior leadership Children: Disabled team for children’s services for the longer term.

Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Children, Schools and Families what monitoring his Department plans to undertake to ensure that Aiming Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, High for Disabled Children short break funding meets Schools and Families what estimate he has made of his its objectives in respect of the provision of services to Department’s capital underspend in 2009-10; and how (a) disabled children and (b) disabled children with much of that sum he proposes to return to the Exchequer. palliative care needs. [286975] [284325]

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department has contracted Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, with Together for Disabled Children (TDC) to support Schools and Families is not anticipating a capital local authority and PCT delivery of the short breaks underspend at this stage of the current financial year programme. TDC tracks local area progress both in (2009-10). terms of the work undertaken to improve services and Education: Assessments the growth in provision and number of additional disabled children in receipt of breaks. Local authorities are Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for expected to collect information on short breaks provision Children, Schools and Families (1) how many (a) to enable this tracking to take place. The information maintained comprehensive and (b) independent schools collected does not however distinguish as to whether have applied for funding to teach the pre-U qualification; breaks are received as part of a package of palliative [286385] care. (2) how many pupils are studying for the Cambridge pre-U examination in (a) maintained comprehensive Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for schools and (b) independent schools. [286390] Children, Schools and Families what steps he is taking to ensure access for local voluntary sector providers to Mr. Coaker [holding answer 13 July 2009]: Post-16 the Aiming High for Disabled Children short breaks funding allocations to maintained schools are made on funding distributed to local authorities. [286976] the basis of overall learners’ volumes and not by qualification type. It is not possible to provide information Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department is advising on the allocation of funding to maintained schools for local authorities on short break commissioning through the pre-U qualification. DCSF does not fund independent two intermediary bodies: Together for Disabled Children schools. and the Commissioning Support Programme. Advisors from both agencies support local authorities in securing It is not possible to provide information on the numbers appropriate providers, including local voluntary sector of pupils studying for the pre-U qualification. I refer bodies. the hon. Member to the reply given on 25 March 2009, Official Report, column 535W. The Department will also shortly launch a website for short break providers and local authority and primary Further Education care trust commissioners on which local providers can advertise their short break services. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what recent assessment Children: Protection he has made of the relevance of diploma qualifications to the needs of employers; and what steps he is taking Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for to take employers’ views into account when revising the Children, Schools and Families what steps his Department content and structure of diplomas. [285425] is taking to improve child protection services in Doncaster. [284447] Mr. Iain Wright: Diplomas were created through consultation with over 5,000 employers, and employers Dawn Primarolo: In response to the inadequate judgments lead the Diploma Development Partnerships responsible in Doncaster Metropolitan borough council’s 2008 annual for developing Diploma content. We have a network of performance assessment, the Department for Children, over 100 Diploma Employer Champions who support Schools and Families (DCSF) commissioned a Diplomas and act as champions for them in their sectors. comprehensive diagnostic review of the council’s children’s Many employers are actively engaging in the delivery of services. The diagnostic review confirmed the seriousness diplomas, working directly with schools and colleges in of inadequate performance in Doncaster and, in response, their local areas, reinforcing the principle that Diplomas the Secretary of State issued a direction under section are applied learning in the workplace. The Employer 497A of the Education Act 1996, to the effect that the Task Force, which will be launched in the autumn, will council was directed to secure a new senior leadership provide further opportunities for employers to become team for children’s services, to prepare an Improvement involved with diploma delivery. 467W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 468W

We are still in the first year of teaching of the Members: Correspondence Diploma and so have no plans to revise content and structure. We are evaluating the first three years of delivery for each of the four phases of Diplomas and Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for this will include an evaluation of employer involvement. Children, Schools and Families when he plans to provide a substantive response to the letter from a constituent of the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight Head Teachers: Age of 22 April 2009, ref ART 63589019765, on that constituent’s daughter. [283206] Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the average age of Mr. Lammy: I have been asked to reply. (a) primary and (b) secondary school head teachers was in each year since 1997. [286402] The correspondence from the hon. Member’s constituent was addressed to the Student Loans Company, and no Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the average direct contact was made with the Department. age of full-time head teachers in local authority maintained nursery/primary and secondary schools in England, National Curriculum Tests March 1997 to 2008, the latest information available. Average age of full-time head teachers in local authority maintained Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, schools. Coverage: England. Years: March 1997 to 2008 Schools and Families what meetings he has had in the Nursery/primary Secondary last 12 months on the proposal to move Key Stage 2 1997 48 49 standard assessment tests to June; and who was present 1998 48 49 at each meeting. [286082] 1999 48 50 2000 49 50 Mr. Coaker: The Expert Group on Assessment consulted 2001 49 50 widely before publishing its recommendations, including 2002 49 50 the proposal to move Key Stage National Curriculum 2003 50 51 tests to June. The Department has accepted the group’s 2004 50 50 recommendations in full. Ministers have met regularly 2005 50 51 with officials to discuss the group’s proposals, including the recommendation to move Key Stage 2 National 20061 50 51 Curriculum test dates to June. 20071 50 51 20081 49 51 1 Provisional. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: Children, Schools and Families whom he consulted on Figures are rounded to the nearest whole year. proposals to change the announced dates for Key Stage Source: 2 standard assessment tests. [286084] Database of Teacher Records.

Higher Education: Finance Mr. Coaker: The Expert Group on Assessment consulted widely before publishing its recommendations, including the proposal to move key stage national curriculum Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for tests to June. The Department has accepted the group’s Children, Schools and Families how much mainstream recommendations in full. grant funding was allocated by the Training and Development Agency for Schools to (a) the University Having taken account of advice from the Qualification of York and (b) York St. John University in (i) 1996-97 and Standards Authority (QCA) and the Office of the and (ii) the latest year for which figures are available. Qualifications and Examinations Regulator (Ofqual), [285701] tests in 2010 will take place as planned in the week commencing 10 May. We will seek to implement the Mr. Coaker: The recurrent mainstream funding amounts expert group’s recommendation on moving the test to allocated by the Training and Development Agency for mid June in 2011; this will help to strengthen transition schools for academic years 1996/97 and 2009/10 are as arrangements for year 6 pupils; it will also help to follows: embed our Assessment for Learning strategy and the role of teacher assessment. Funding (£)

University of York National Curriculum Tests: Public Consultation 1996/97 471,263 2009/10 778,880 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (1) if he will hold a public consultation York St. John University on (a) the proposals in the report recently produced by the Expert Group on Assessment and (b) the proposal 1996/97 2,168,728 to move Key Stage 2 standard assessment tests to June; 2009/10 3,773,560 [285909] These figures exclude grant allocated to cover student (2) whom he has consulted on his Department’s support costs and employment-based initial teacher proposal to hold Key Stage 2 standard assessment tests training provision. in June. [285911] 469W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 470W

Mr. Coaker: The Expert Group on Assessment consulted receive either play pathfinder or playbuilder funding widely before publishing its recommendations, including between 2008-11 through the play capital investment the proposal to move Key Stage National Curriculum programme. tests to June. The Department has accepted the group’s Of the 152 top-tier local authorities, 30 are play recommendations in full. pathfinder authorities and the remaining 122 local Having taken account of advice from the Qualification authorities are all playbuilder authorities. On average, and Standards Authority (QCA) and the Office of the every play pathfinder authority will receive around Qualifications and Examinations Regulator (Ofqual), £2 million capital funding and £500,000 revenue funding, tests in 2010 will take place as planned in the week while playbuilder authorities will receive around commencing 10 May. We will seek to implement the £1 million capital and £45,000 revenue funding, over the Expert Group’s recommendation on moving the test to current spending period 2008-09 to 2010-11. Play pathfinder mid June in 2011; this will help to strengthen transition authorities will use their allocated funding to deliver a arrangements for year 6 pupils; it will also help to minimum of 28 play areas plus a new staffed adventure embed our Assessment for Learning strategy and the playground, while playbuilder authorities will deliver a role of teacher assessment. minimum of 22 play areas by 2011. The play areas that are delivered can be either completely new areas or Ofsted: Manpower existing areas which are significantly refurbished. Local authorities have joined the programme, and so Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for started receiving their funding, in two phases: wave 1 Children, Schools and Families how many Ofsted started in April 2008 and wave 2 in April 2009. Bolton, inspectors of children’s services have degrees in social Bury, Rochdale and Tameside are all wave 1 authorities, work. [282646] while the other six authorities in the Greater Manchester area (City of Manchester, Oldham, Salford, Stockport, Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 26 June 2009]: This Trafford and Wigan) joined the programme in April is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief Inspector, Christine 2009. Of these, 10 local authorities, both Rochdale and Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of Wigan are play pathfinders, while the others are all her reply has been placed in the House Libraries. playbuilder authorities. Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 9 July 2009: The following tables show the capital and revenue Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as funding allocated to Greater Manchester authorities Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. and the phase they each joined the capital play programme. Information relating to the academic level of qualifications Allocations for 2010-11 are indicative and will be confirmed held by inspectors was not provided to Ofsted when social care in February 2010. inspectors transferred from the Commission for Social Care Inspection in April 2007. As of 26 June 2009, Ofsted employs 44 Decisions on where the capital funding is spent within Her Majesty’s Inspectors (HMI) with a social care background, local authority boundaries are taken locally, based on who manage and undertake inspections of local authority children’s grant requirements around improved play spaces being services. Ofsted also employs 149 social care inspectors, who provided where they are most needed and based on a regulate and inspect a range of social care providers, such as robust consultation process with local children and residential homes, fostering and adoption agencies. young people, families and wider communities. Of the 44 HMI, 42 hold a social work qualification recognised We are encouraging all Members of Parliament to by the General Social Care Council, the qualification required for social work practice. These qualifications were awarded at different proactively engage with their local play capital programmes academic levels depending on the course attended (from the as they roll out, and we are asking local authorities to Certificate of Qualification in Social Work to a Masters degree) ensure that their local Members of Parliament and but all hold the same professional status. The requirement to hold council elected members are appropriately consulted, a degree as the minimum level of social work qualification was and briefed, about where the capital funding is spent. only introduced in 2003. One HMI holds a residential work qualification which is not recognised as a social work qualification. Wave 1 authorities £ The 149 social care inspectors hold a variety of social work, social care and related qualifications and had considerable experience Capital funding Revenue funding in providing children’s social care services prior to joining Ofsted. Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, Bolton 351,984 390,628 440,319 12,662 19,912 13,274 and will be placed in the library of both Houses. Bury 293,307 389,180 438,686 12,465 19,646 13,097 Rochdale 595,624 1,573,332 n/a1 139,346 218,794 145,863 Play: Finance Tameside 298,756 388,987 438,469 12,606 19,802 13,202 1 Wave 1 play pathfinder authorities receive capital funding in 2008-09 and Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 only. Wave 2 authorities Children, Schools and Families how much funding £ each local authority in Greater Manchester awarded Capital funding Revenue funding funding under the National Play Strategy in December Local 2008 has received to date; and how much on average authority 2009-10 2010-11 2009-10 2010-11 each local authority in England was awarded under the National Play Strategy in December 2008. [285380] City of 539,934 608,617 27,663 18,442 Manchester Oldham 532,243 599,948 27,618 18,412 Mr. Coaker: Following the commitments made in the Salford 531,457 599,062 27,561 18,374 Children’s Plan in 2007 and the national Play Strategy Stockport 526,916 593,944 26,991 17,994 in 2008, every top-tier local authority in England will 471W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 472W

Wave 2 authorities fiscal stimulus measures, the breakdown of funding £ allocated to support delivery of the programme nationally Capital funding Revenue funding is: Local (a) 2009-10: £757 million; authority 2009-10 2010-11 2009-10 2010-11 (b) 2010-11: £893 million. Trafford 526,656 593,650 26,985 17,990 Wigan 1,117,998 1,011,522 297,747 198,498 Qualification: Social Work

Playgrounds: Hertfordshire Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the grade is of the Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for most senior member of staff at Ofsted with a Children, Schools and Families what funding his qualification in social work. [284448] Department has provided for the enhancement of public play facilities in (a) Hemel Hempstead constituency, Dawn Primarolo: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM (b) Dacorum and (c) Hertfordshire in the last 12 months. Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the [284738] hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed in the House Libraries. Dawn Primarolo: Following the commitments made Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 9 July 2009: in the Children’s Plan in 2007 and the national Play Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as strategy in 2008, every top tier local authority in England Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. will receive either play pathfinder or playbuilder funding The grade of the most senior members of staff at Ofsted to between 2008-11 through the play capital investment hold a qualification in social work is Deputy Director, equivalent programme. to senior civil service (SCS) pay band 1. Two individuals hold On average all play pathfinder authorities will receive posts at this grade. around £2 million capital funding and £500,000 revenue As part of internal restructuring announced last September, funding, while playbuilder authorities will receive around Ofsted is currently recruiting a Director, Development (Social Care). She or he is required to hold a professional qualification in £1 million capital and £45,000 revenue funding. Play social work and to demonstrate ‘relevant knowledge and experience pathfinder authorities will use their allocated funding as a senior manager of social work and child protection services’. to deliver a minimum of 28 play areas plus a new staffed A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo adventure playground, while playbuilder authorities will MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, deliver a minimum of 22 play areas by 2011. The play and will be placed in the library of both Houses. areas that are delivered can be either completely new areas or existing areas which are significantly refurbished. Rehabilitation: Lincolnshire Local authorities have joined the programme, and so started receiving their funding, in two phases: Wave 1 started in April 2008 and Wave 2 in April 2009. Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Hertfordshire is a Wave 2 playbuilder authority and will Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer receive capital funding of £541,001 in 2009-10 and of 12 June 2009, Official Report, columns 1069-70W, £609,820 in 2010-11 and revenue funding of £27,633 in and 1434W, on rehabilitation: Lincolnshire, where the 2009-10 and £18,422 in 2010-11. Allocations for 2010-11 35 residential places are located. [284146] are indicative and will be confirmed in February 2010. Dawn Primarolo: The available beds, along with details Decisions on where the capital funding is spent within of the support offered, are set out in the following table. local authority boundaries are taken locally, based on These places represent only a small part of residential grant requirements around improved play spaces being provision that can be accessed for young people with provided where they are most needed and based on a complex needs, where substance misuse is one factor. robust consultation process with local children and Local authority commissioners also meet young people’s young people, families and wider communities. needs through a combination of fostering or children’s We are encouraging all members of parliament to home placements and specialist substance misuse proactively engage with their local play capital programmes community based services. This will often allow young as they roll out, and we are asking local authorities to people to be supported in an environment closer to ensure that their local members of parliament and their own community. council elected members are appropriately consulted, and briefed, about where the capital funding is spent. Number of Description of support beds Location Provider offered

Primary Education: Finance 5 Lincolnshire Middlegate Registered Children’s Lodge Home. Offers residential placement with an emphasis Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, on detox and rehabilitation. Additional education and Schools and Families what funds have been allocated to other services are also the Primary Capital Programme for the financial year provided. (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [286799] 11 Maidenhead Huntercombe Registered Children’s Home. Combines mental health and substance Mr. Coaker: Taking into account the adjustments misuse services. Offers made following requests by some local authorities to detox and rehabilitation programmes. bring forward funding in support of the Government’s 473W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 474W

school estate and modernising school infrastructure, Number of Description of support beds Location Provider offered (b) the number of secondary school classrooms adapted to improve personalised learning, (c) the number of 3 Staffordshire Companions Registered Children’s schools receiving energy-saving measures, (d) the number Home. Provides intensive, long-term care for young of kitchens built in primary schools and (e) the number people whose complex of rooms in primary schools converted for mother-and-baby needs are severe and include groups and other community uses of the £800 million substance misuse. funding for priority schools capital programmes, brought 16 (women Peterborough Clare Lodge Secure Children’s Home. only) Offers placements under forward from 2010-11 to 2009-10 and 2008-09; and how Section 25 of the Children’s much of the funding has been spent in each month since Act 1989 for 10 to 17-year- [286655] olds with self-harm, it was announced. substance misuse or other complex needs. Mr. Coaker: The fiscal stimulus initiative allowed local authorities and schools to bring forward some of Religion: Education their capital allocations from 2010-11 into 2009-10. The programmes affected are: Modernisation for schools; Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, the Locally Co-ordinated Voluntarily Aided Programme Schools and Families how the £1 million spent by his (LCVAP); Primary Capital Programme; the Targeted Department on strengthening the teaching of (a) religious Capital Fund for 14-19, special educational needs and education and (b) identity and diversity has been allocated. disabilities; devolved formula capital which is paid directly [286118] to schools; and children’s play areas. The final overall amount brought forward was £969 million. Information Ms Diana R. Johnson: The £1 million announced in on how much of the overall allocations have been January 2008 was to be spent specifically on the Religious invested to date, and the impact of the investment, is Education Action Plan and not on the identity and held locally. The Department will be carrying out a diversity strand which falls within Citizenship Education. survey later this year to determine whether or not the The money has been allocated as follows: funds are on track to be invested during the 2009-10 spending period. 2008-11 Item (£) Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families with reference to paragraph 6.14, 1. RE Partnership support 120,000 page 120, of Budget 2009, what information his 2. Updating and disseminating the existing guidance on RE 60,000 Department holds on the priority schools capital 3. National programme of recruitment and training for local 100,000 Standing Advisory Councils on RE programme; and what funding his Department has 4. Support to National Association of Teachers of RE 240,000 allocated to the programme in financial years (a) 5. Continuing Professional Development Handbook for RE 100,000 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [286891] 6. Review of materials used in schools to teach world religions 300,000 and their contribution to community cohesion Mr. Coaker: The fiscal stimulus initiative allowed 7. DCSF/REC Adviser 40,000 local authorities and schools to bring forward some of Total 960,000 their capital allocations from 2010-11 into 2009-10. This involved allocations in existing programmes announced Schools in the comprehensive spending review 2007, but allowed for significant investment to be made earlier than had previously been anticipated. Priorities for investment Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, on these programmes are decided and held locally. Schools and Families (1) with reference to his Overall, the final amount planned to be brought forward Department’s publication, Your child, your schools, was £969 million. This can be broken down as follows: our future, how many and what proportion of the case studies were assessed against a control group; [286883] Programme £m (2) if he will place in the Library a copy of the quantitative analysis of data used in each of the case Modernisation for schools 240 studies. [286884] Locally Co-ordinated Voluntarily Aided 51 Programme (LCVAP) Primary Capital Programme 107 Mr. Coaker: The case studies used in the recent White Targeted Capital Fund for 14 to 19, special 151 Paper—Your child, your schools, our future: building a educational needs and disabilities 21st century schools system—are intended as individual Devolved Formula Capital (paid directly to 390 examples of good practice from a range of partners and schools) sources. They illustrate proposals within the document Children’s play areas 30 and support understanding through using real contexts. In using such cases, we did not consider it necessary to Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for have a control group or to collect a full quantitative Children, Schools and Families how much funding has analysis of data. been allocated to each local authority through the dedicated schools grant in each year since its introduction. Schools: Finance [286980]

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Coaker: The following table shows the Dedicated Children, Schools and Families what assessment he has Schools Grant allocations made to each local authority made of the effect on (a) the renewal of the primary in each year since the grant began in 2006-07. Local 475W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 476W authorities with schools that have converted into academies Dedicated schools grant allocations by local authority may see a reduction in their allocation in the year of £ million conversion. Academies receive their funding direct from 2006- 2007- 2008- 2009- the Department, not through local authorities. 2007 2008 2009 2010 Dedicated schools grant allocations by local authority Havering 133,791 141,743 147,407 153,255 £ million Herefordshire 78,151 82,535 83,612 84,519 2006- 2007- 2008- 2009- Hertfordshire 565,275 597,715 621,928 642,065 2007 2008 2009 2010 Hillingdon 148,435 158,427 165,328 173,418 Hounslow 134,705 145,398 151,628 158,126 Barking and Dagenham 119,913 129,088 135,488 142,933 Isle of Wight 67,779 70,911 72,708 74,162 Barnet 173,792 185,129 195,074 202,138 Islington 116,438 123,028 123,100 125,434 Barnsley 115,173 120,431 123,795 126,271 Kensington and Chelsea 56,218 60,141 62,106 64,209 Bath and North East 84,534 89,117 92,611 95,332 Somerset Kent 718,205 751,848 773,916 791,332 Bedford Borough1 n/a n/a n/a 92,190 Kingston Upon Hull, 140,699 146,437 147,321 146,344 City of Bedfordshire1 204,772 218,084 227,692 n/a Kingston upon Thames 73,799 78,402 81,983 86,488 Bexley 137,002 144,800 149,304 153,030 Kirklees 219,243 232,480 241,262 249,965 Birmingham 677,576 721,735 747,609 768,202 Knowsley 91,218 94,867 96,764 98,699 Blackburn with Darwen 97,105 102,346 103,829 105,268 Lambeth 147,071 159,303 169,053 177,221 Blackpool 76,268 80,419 82,572 84,223 Lancashire 606,865 634,956 649,351 659,577 Bolton 156,361 165,865 171,002 171,193 Leeds 363,869 380,882 393,272 400,686 Bournemouth 69,596 73,397 76,431 79,039 Leicester 169,484 181,366 188,698 195,111 Bracknell Forest 52,899 56,717 59,691 61,973 Leicestershire 298,047 313,502 325,362 336,061 Bradford 291,773 312,002 326,808 336,624 Lewisham 161,465 168,579 172,420 178,216 Brent 159,124 173,854 185,106 189,555 Lincolnshire 338,012 358,304 364,139 363,492 Brighton and Hove 108,502 117,598 122,581 127,734 Liverpool 251,480 259,778 264,974 270,273 Bristol, City of 180,667 188,615 189,531 192,264 Luton 121,890 126,431 130,118 136,270 Bromley 156,417 165,628 172,412 179,400 Manchester 257,322 272,581 281,132 280,993 Buckinghamshire 248,999 263,650 275,335 283,256 Medway 152,202 159,669 163,836 165,319 Bury 99,393 105,016 108,677 112,108 Merton 87,087 90,758 94,740 99,162 Calderdale 113,764 120,468 126,007 130,646 Middlesbrough 72,479 75,378 76,886 79,098 Cambridgeshire 266,456 282,595 295,795 306,375 Milton Keynes 128,460 138,853 148,576 153,392 Camden 110,974 118,313 122,965 128,449 Newcastle upon Tyne 127,051 134,112 135,613 136,846 Central Bedfordshire1 n/a n/a n/a 142,303 Newham 215,377 231,764 242,480 252,635 Cheshire East1 n/a n/a n/a 193,298 Norfolk 376,695 397,879 411,575 419,678 Cheshire West and n/a n/a n/a 185,655 Chester1 North East Lincolnshire 93,904 92,859 91,129 92,952 Cheshire1 346,727 362,566 374,100 n/a North Lincolnshire 84,891 89,525 90,944 92,380 City of London 1,664 1,755 1,801 1,962 North Somerset 93,147 99,681 104,432 108,003 Cornwall 240,785 254,078 261,827 268,681 North Tyneside 96,832 101,636 104,674 107,062 Coventry 170,628 181,098 186,193 191,900 North Yorkshire 285,994 299,913 310,692 318,209 Croydon 186,482 196,967 200,839 198,608 Northamptonshire 338,390 358,440 373,030 376,256 Cumbria 246,418 258,946 258,775 256,931 Northumberland 151,545 159,219 164,015 160,909 Darlington 53,941 55,815 56,354 58,539 Nottingham 145,958 154,697 159,276 156,735 Derby 130,521 138,746 142,955 147,844 Nottinghamshire 384,033 407,619 417,331 426,150 Derbyshire 376,114 393,943 406,793 414,929 Oldham 143,869 152.671 159,029 164,960 Devon 317,668 335,278 348,214 359,179 Oxfordshire 283,527 299,770 308,546 321,677 Doncaster 158,019 165,419 169,984 169,167 Peterborough 104,111 106,402 108,744 111,818 Dorset 183,557 194,215 200,381 205,848 Plymouth 127,125 132,906 136,886 140,166 Dudley 173,955 183,146 188,303 189,779 Poole 61,136 64,386 66,954 69,013 Durham 255,591 267,453 274,436 279,925 Portsmouth 92,454 97,702 99,832 100,010 Ealing 170,813 185,023 194,006 203,109 Reading 59,511 63,316 66,419 69,940 East Riding of 158,009 166,529 171,844 176,037 Redbridge 151,437 164,405 173,785 184,212 Yorkshire Redcar and Cleveland 81,483 85,036 86,737 88,472 East Sussex 237,085 249,423 257,367 266,665 Richmond upon 80,464 85,924 91,127 95,057 Enfield 186,575 200,393 208,807 213,515 Thames Essex 694,378 733,245 754,995 758,957 Rochdale 127,281 132,078 134,857 138,438 Gateshead 95,668 100,182 102,678 105,114 Rotherham 155,011 163,114 167,663 170,154 Gloucestershire 279,957 294,472 306,234 315,166 Rutland 17,936 18,692 19,753 20,582 Greenwich 157,469 168,777 174,442 180,449 Salford 122,025 126,906 127,960 130,545 Hackney 140,069 146,998 149,967 155,005 Sandwell 177,873 185,354 185,455 186,752 Halton 71,796 75,565 77,959 79,697 Sefton 148,611 154,555 157,646 160,799 Hammersmith and 78,825 82,175 84,626 88,462 Sheffield 252,981 264,759 274,119 281,394 Fulham Shropshire 133,468 139,256 143,866 147,176 Hampshire 614,145 647,530 671,582 692,510 Slough 75,633 83,187 87,374 91,456 Haringey 144,409 154,297 159,997 164,501 Solihull 113,614 117,293 122,228 123,788 Harrow 119,052 127,092 132,762 137,487 Somerset 241,427 253,489 262,927 268,946 Hartlepool 54,528 57,377 58,525 59,700 South Gloucestershire 127,610 134,738 139,155 136,125 477W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 478W

Dedicated schools grant allocations by local authority Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, £ million Schools and Families (1) what estimate his Department 2006- 2007- 2008- 2009- has made of the number of school excursions which 2007 2008 2009 2010 were cancelled owing to a failure to provide sufficient South Tyneside 82,607 85,998 87,718 89,472 levels of staff cover in the last 12 months; [286079] Southampton 106,923 112,679 111,002 112,163 Southend-on-Sea 93,734 98,970 102,523 105,405 Tim Farron: (2) what steps his Department has taken Southwark 167,665 166,425 164,714 168,332 to ensure that the requirement that teachers rarely St. Helens 96,075 100,344 102,539 104,590 cover for absent colleagues does not adversely affect Staffordshire 410,246 428,460 442,408 452,378 learning activities outside the classroom. [286081] Stockport 141,421 145,810 149,416 152,404 Stockton-on-Tees 102,936 108,129 110,984 113,204 Mr. Coaker: The Secretary of State and my predecessor, Stoke-on-Trent 128,578 134,987 138,998 142,287 the right hon. Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight) Suffolk 325,258 343,156 356,069 364,796 have discussed the issues of “rarely cover” individually Sunderland 152,385 158,576 158,861 156,251 with our social partners on the Workforce Agreement Surrey 496,045 528,566 553,065 574,114 Monitoring Group on a number of occasions over the Sutton 107,407 115,169 120,569 125,693 last few months. Swindon 99,650 103,259 107,169 110,647 General guidance on the “rarely cover” provisions Tameside 126,931 133,157 133,408 130,997 was issued at the end of April. A copy of this has been Telford and Wrekin 91,545 93,936 94,710 96,249 placed in the House Libraries. It makes clear that Thurrock 84,337 88,593 93,821 95,030 teachers should, from September 2009, be required to Torbay 63,337 66,919 69,227 70,612 cover for absent colleagues only rarely, in circumstances Tower Hamlets 197,620 214,012 222,676 232,291 that are not foreseeable. Trafford 115,557 122,267 129,836 134,623 Since April, the Department has been working hard Wakefield 169,213 177,316 181,551 182,151 with social partners to produce additional guidance on Walsall 156,923 166,212 170,660 170,137 the “rarely cover” provisions. This will include guidance Waltham Forest 144,467 153,176 160,125 167,109 on learning outside the classroom which is designed to Wandsworth 124,128 134,423 140,411 146,257 help schools plan effectively for these activities, which Warrington 105,260 111,706 116,014 119,386 we all agree are an important part of the curriculum. Warwickshire 255,186 268,812 277,924 287,519 The additional guidance, which will be subject to a West Berkshire 82,568 88,582 92,825 95,953 period of consultation, will be issued shortly and a copy West Sussex 366,745 385,413 399,531 400,316 will be placed in the House Libraries. Westminster 86,014 89,186 89,075 90,949 Wigan 169,716 177,387 182,506 186,156 No estimate has been made of the number of learning Wiltshire 215,852 228,304 237,385 243,179 outside the classroom activities that have been cancelled Windsor and 66,332 70,547 73,044 75,873 because of a lack of cover over the last 12 months and Maidenhead where schools take note of the new guidance, we do not Wirral 170,958 179,355 183,718 188,116 anticipate that the “rarely cover” provisions will result Wokingham 75,960 81,022 84,607 88,029 in reduced opportunities for learning outside the classroom Wolverhampton 136,566 144,504 148,732 149,595 in the future. Worcestershire 259,678 271,961 282,736 288,576 York 79,798 83,311 86,056 88,321 Truancy: Yorkshire and the Humber England Total 26,573,622 28,031,554 28,941,547 29,620,467 n/a = Not applicable. 1 Authorities changed as a result of local government reorganisation. Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many parents in Teachers: Rarely Cover each local authority area in Yorkshire and the Humber appeared in court on charges related to the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, unauthorised absence of their child from school in each Schools and Families (1) what additional support he of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. plans to provide to teachers to help facilitate the continuation of educationally valuable visits or trips in [280689] light of the rarely cover guidelines; [285910] Mr. Coaker: The Ministry of Justice collects and (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on the publishes data for England and Wales on prosecutions conduct of school trips of his Department’s rarely brought against parents under the Education Act 1996 cover guidance; [285912] for the offence under s444(1) of failing to secure their (3) what recent discussions he has had on the child’s regular attendance at school; and for prosecutions application of his Department’s rarely cover guidance; under s444(1A), the aggravated offence of knowing that with whom such discussions were held; and on what their child is failing to attend school regularly. It is dates these discussions took place; [285913] possible, because of the way courts record data, that Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for some s444 data are also collected under the more general Children, Schools and Families if he will place in the heading of various offences under the Education Act Library a copy of the guidance he has issued to schools 1996. on the requirement that teachers rarely cover for absent The information on the number of parents prosecuted colleagues; what guidance he has issued to schools on by local authorities in Yorkshire and the Humber for the implementation of Rarely Cover guidelines for failing to secure their children’s regular school attendance school trips; and what definition of Rarely Cover is between 2003 to 2007 (latest available data) is detailed used in the context of such guidance. [285722] in the table. Data are collected on the basis of police 479W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 480W force regions and not local authority areas. Court be provided with a grant of up to £20,000 (£1.4 million proceedings data for 2008 will be available in the autumn in total) to kick start activity to begin before the summer of 2009. and last at least throughout the summer holidays. Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences under the Education Act 1996 S.4441, Yorkshire and Humberside region, broken down by police force area, 2003 to 20072, 3 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 TREASURY

Humberside 65 29 208 224 225 Banks: Iceland North Yorkshire 19 21 24 34 53 South Yorkshire 463 375 333 455 483 John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer West Yorkshire 162 218 63 19 9 what meetings his Department’s officials have had on Yorkshire and 709 643 628 732 770 the recovery of local authority investments in Icelandic Humberside banks since 1 May 2009. [286393] 1 Includes the following; (a) Failure to secure regular attendance at school. (Education Act 1996 S.444 (1)(8)). Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials (b) Parent knows that their child is failing to attend school regularly have meetings and discussions with a wide variety of and fails without reasonable justification to cause him or her to organisations in the public and private sectors as part of attend school. (Education Act 1996 S.444(8)(1a)(8a) added by the process of policy development and delivery. As was Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 S.72). 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the the case with previous Administrations, the Government principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant do not disclose the outcome or results of all such has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence meetings and discussions. is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence Departmental Data Protection selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are Jenny Willott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these (1) how many attempts were made to gain unauthorised data have been extracted from large administrative data systems access to each (a) database and (b) ICT system run by generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their his Department in 2008-09; and if he will make a inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are statement; [286558] used. (2) how many successful attempts were made to gain Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, unauthorised access to each (a) database and (b) ICT Ministry of Justice system run by his Department in 2008-09; and if he will make a statement. [286559] Youth Crime Priority Areas: Finance Sarah McCarthy-Fry: It is not in the interests of the James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for UK’s national security for Departments to confirm Children, Schools and Families how much additional information on the number of attempts, successful or funding has been allocated by his Department to the otherwise, to gain unauthorised access to departmental 69 local authority areas identified as Youth Crime systems or databases. Such disclosure could undermine Priority Areas; and over what period that funding will the integrity and security of departmental systems and be provided. [285554] thereby expose them to potential threats. HM Treasury is bound by the mandatory requirements Mr. Coaker: The Youth Crime Action Plan (YCAP), of the Security Policy Framework in relation to information published in July 2008, sets out the Government’s plans security including managing the risk of unauthorised for tackling offending by young people. It is supported access to ICT systems. by close to £100 million over the three year period from 2008-09 to 2010-11, in addition to the existing investment Departmental Training in children’s and youth services, to support local authorities in making inroads into youth crime locally. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the 69 local authority areas (and two in Wales) have been Exchequer what training courses have been attended identified as “priority areas” under YCAP. In 2008-09, by special advisers in his Department in the last under YCAP, the 69 local authorities in England each 12 months; and at what cost. [279390] received £65,000 to implement an intensive package of activity set out in YCAP. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: There is no central provision Each of the 69 local authority areas in England will for training special advisers. receive £350,000 this financial year (2009-10) and £350,000 in 2010-11 to deliver the intensive package of activity to Financial Services: Regulation help reduce youth crime. In addition, the two Welsh areas will receive £175,000 in each of the two years to Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer fund those aspects of the intensive package that are not what assessment he has made of the implications for his devolved. Department’s policies on the banking and financial This year, building on the success of the Home Office services sector of the paper presented on 8 May 2009 to enforcement campaign in 2008/09 we will provide funding the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago Conference on to the 69 areas to develop a co-ordinated plan of reforming financial regulation by the executive director activity to tackle alcohol related youth crime. Areas will for financial stability of the Bank of England. [286815] 481W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 482W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government’s approach and Rural Affairs, and the Natural Environment Research to reforming regulation of financial services is set out in Council. The Met Office OEP review team is currently the Government’s paper ’Reforming Financial Markets’, reviewing which further public sector bodies to consult published on 8 July 2009 with as part of the next phase of work. Hedge Funds Pay: North East Harry Cohen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the oral statement of 8 July 2009, Official Report, columns 969-87, on reforming of financial markets, Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his definition is of systematically important hedge what the rate of average earnings growth was in (a) funds; and which hedge funds fall into this category. Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside and (c) the North East in each year since 1997. [286343] [286628]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A financial institution can be Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. said to be of systemic importance when its failure could The information requested falls within the responsibility cause serious disruption to the financial system. In of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority order to more closely monitor the systemic impact of to reply. hedge funds the Government are working with the Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: Financial Services Authority to put in place a system of As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your enhanced surveillance that can gather relevant and timely recent Parliamentary Question asking what the rate of average information on the funding, leverage, investment strategies earnings growth was in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside and, in some cases, investment positions of individual and (c) the North East in each year since 1997. (286343) funds managed from the UK. ONS’s primary indicator of average earnings growth is the Average Earnings Index. As this does not produce regional estimates, Interpal the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings has been used (ASHE). The ASHE, carried out in April each year, is the most comprehensive Jo Swinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer source of information on the levels of earnings in the United pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Milton Kingdom. It is a sample of all employees who are members of Keynes South West, Official Report, column 677W, on pay-as-you-earn (PAYE) schemes. Interpal, whether he has received evidence from the US The sample sizes for more detailed geographies can be small administration on the basis for the allegations made and this affects the quality of the resulting estimates, which are against Interpal in its press notice of 22 August 2003. subject to a margin of uncertainty. [284469] ASHE results are available from 1997 and so annual growth rates are available from 1998. I attach a table showing the annual percentage change in median gross weekly earnings for the specified Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As set out in the Treasury’s geographies for full-time employees in each year since 1998. written answer of 12 May 2009, Official Report, column Annual percentage change of median gross weekly earnings for full- 677W, HM Treasury officials are in discussions with 1 their US counterparts about how to facilitate legitimate time employee jobs Jarrow charitable work, while protecting against the abuse of parliamentary South Tyneside charities by those involved in terrorist finance. As part constituency local authority North East of this, HM Treasury continue to discuss the specific case of Interpal with the US authorities. 1998 8.2 8.7 1.0 1999 3.2 -0.4 3.8 Members: Correspondence 2000 0.3 7.1 4.9 2001 7.8 4.5 1.3 Ann Winterton: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2002 -3.5 -7.2 3.3 when he plans to respond to the letter of 5 March 2009, 2003 -7.2 1.8 1.1 ref 6/00178/2009, on the banking industry and pensions 2004 6.6 14.5 7.0 from the hon. Member for Congleton on behalf of her 2005 0.9 -2.8 3.7 constituents Mr. and Mrs. Brian Evans. [280715] 2006 4.0 3.8 3.7 2007 -0.4 -0.6 2.4 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A reply has been sent to the 2008 4.8 6.7 4.0 hon. Member. 1 Full-time employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey pay-period Operational Efficiency Programme: Met Office was not affected by absence. Source: Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings, Office for National Statistics. Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Chancellor of the 1998 to 2008. Exchequer with which other public sector bodies the Operational Efficiency Programme project team plans Public Expenditure to work in its review of the Met Office. [284655]

Mr. Byrne [holding answer 7 July 2009]: As part of Mr. Willetts: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the joint work on the Trading Funds Review which what the components are of the other spending line preceded the Operational Efficiency Programme (OEP), in Table 4.1, Spending Projection, on page 36 of the Met Office has had initial engagement with public Long-term Public Finance Report of March 2008, sector bodies including the Department of Energy and identifying the components of the totals for each of the Climate Change, Department for Environment, Food years given in the columns. [282219] 483W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 484W

Mr. Byrne: The Long-term Public Finance Report Allotments: Lancashire provides a comprehensive analysis of long-term demographic developments, and their likely impact on Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities the public finances, based on long-term projections of and Local Government how many allotments are provided public spending and revenues. The latest publication, as by each district authority in Lancashire. [286688] well as previous reports, can be found on HM Treasury’s website at: Mr. Malik: Information on the number of allotments http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/bud_bud08_longterm.htm provided by each local authority is not held centrally.

Travel: Insurance Collective Worship

Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Exchequer what recent representations he has Communities and Local Government how many people received from representatives of those with serious attended Church of England services in each of the last medical conditions and disabilities on the availability 30 years. [286291] of travel insurance; and if he will make a statement. [286258] Mr. Malik: This information is not collected by Government. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials Community Relations receive representations from a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was the case Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for with previous administrations, it is not the Government’s Communities and Local Government what steps have practice to provide details of all such representations. been taken to tackle caste discrimination in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [285341] Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the Mr. Malik: Officials have been considering the issue average proportion of the cost of travel insurance to of caste based discrimination and Communities and the consumer accounted for by premium insurance tax; Local Government are currently engaged in a series of meetings with interested parties on the subject within and if he will make a statement. [286259] the context of the Equality Bill currently before Parliament. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Travel insurance premiums are Council Housing: Finance subject to the higher rate of insurance premium tax at 17.5 per cent. Insurance premium tax therefore accounts for 14.9 per cent of the total price paid by a customer Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for for travel insurance. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns 7-10WS, on housing, for how long the consultation on council housing finance will last; and when he expects it to report. [287033] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mr. Ian Austin: The consultation will be for a minimum Allotments of 12 weeks in accordance with the Government’s code of practice on consultation. The Government response Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for to the consultation will be published early next year. Communities and Local Government what research his Council Tax Department has assessed on the effect of allotments on the environment and local communities. [285423] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Malik: CLG and DEFRA officials have started Communities and Local Government by how much discussions about jointly commissioning research to council tax (a) bills and (b) receipts increased in (i) identify and collect evidence on how communities can absolute percentage terms and (ii) real terms in England be engaged and empowered to realise the benefits of between 1997-98 and 2009-10 according to figures held urban green spaces (including allotments), which align by the Office for National Statistics. [285249] with key Government priorities. Ms Rosie Winterton: According to statistical returns Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for made to Communities and Local Government, between Communities and Local Government how many complaints 1997-98 and 2009-10, average council tax bills for a have been submitted to the local government ombudsman band-D property in England rose by 106 per cent. in on maladministration in the provision of allotments in absolute terms and by 52 per cent. in real terms. Decisions the last five years. [285427] about the level of council tax are a matter for individual local authorities and will rightly reflect the priorities of Mr. Malik: The information requested is not held their local communities. centrally. The Local Government Ombudsman do not Between 1997-98 and 2008-09 receipts of council tax record complaints regarding allotment provision separately, in England increased by 125 per cent. in absolute terms they fall within a wider leisure and culture category on and by 66 per cent. in real terms. Data for 2009-10 are their complaints database. not yet available. 485W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 486W

The Office for National Statistics does not collect Mr. Malik: The information is as follows. information about council tax. (a) £100,000 was allocated to the independent Review of Between 1997-98 and 2007-08 central Government Redress in each of 2008-09 and 2009-10. This covered the full grants, consisting of revenue support grant, redistributed costs of the review, including production of the final report. national non-domestic rates, police grant, general GLA (b) Costs for the design, printing and typesetting of the grant and special and specific grants, to local authorities “Getting it right and righting the wrongs” report and the in England increased by 96 per cent. in absolute terms accompanying practitioners’ toolkit were £23,046 excluding VAT. and by 45 per cent. in real terms. Data for 2008-09 and 2009-10 are not yet available. Departmental Secondment Departmental Accountancy Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many employees Communities and Local Government when he expects of his Department and its predecessors have been posted to publish his Department’s resource accounts for 2008-09. to work in offices of hon. Members of each political [287339] party in each of the last five years. [284976]

Mr. Malik: Communities and Local Government Mr. Malik: Civil servants are required to act in laid their resource accounts before Parliament on accordance with the requirements of the Civil Service 14 July 2009. Code. Civil servants may shadow MPs as part of a Departmental Contracts programme run by the Industry and Parliament Trust. Details on numbers of civil servants from this Department Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities who have had such an attachment are not held centrally. and Local Government if he will make an assessment of the standard of service provided to his Department and Departmental Work Experience its agencies by contractors appointed by reverse auction. [285220] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) paid and (b) Mr. Malik: The Department and its agencies have unpaid graduate internships his Department has awarded not appointed any suppliers by reverse auction. in each of the last six months. [281512] Departmental Internet Mr. Malik: The Department of Communities and Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government has not awarded any paid or unpaid Communities and Local Government when his Department graduate internships in the last six months. plans to update its web browsers from Internet Explorer 6. [285020] Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many interns work in his Mr. Malik: CLG currently has no plans to upgrade Department; what terms of reference apply to their from Internet Explorer 6. CLG will consider upgrading appointment; what remuneration they receive; and how when the benefits for doing so outweigh any disbenefit long on average an intern appointment lasts. [286826] or cost. Reasons for upgrading might include withdrawal of support by Microsoft, or significant dependencies on Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and other versions of internet explorer by other key CLG Local Government currently has 12 interns working in systems. the Department. Details of the different terms of reference, Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers remuneration and the length of the appointment on offer are set out as follows. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Cabinet Office interns for Communities and Local Government pursuant to There are four interns from this programme. All are on a the answer to the hon. Member for Brentwood and training contract, with remuneration of £24,951 per annum Ongar of 8 June 2009, Official Report, column 755W, (pro rata). The placements last on average six weeks. on official hospitality, what the monetary value is Government economics interns above which special advisers in his Department are required to declare (a) hospitality and (b) gifts. There are two interns from this programme. All are on causal contracts, with remuneration of £22,540 per annum (pro rata). [283979] The placements last on average six weeks. Mr. Malik: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Government legal interns given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting There are six interns from this programme. All are on causal (Mr. Khan) to the hon. Member for Bromley and contracts, with remuneration of £180 per week. The placements Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on 8 June 2009, Official last two weeks. Report, columns 755-56W. Departmental Publications Deposit Protection Service

Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the (a) Communities and Local Government (1) if he will original budget for and (b) outturn cost of production place in the Library a copy of the Deposit Protection of his Department’s report Getting it right, and Service’s most recent monthly performance report; righting the wrongs was. [284694] [286955] 487W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 488W

(2) which key performance indicators are used by his Key performance indicator Target Department to measure the performance of the Deposit Protection Service; and if he will make a 10. Notification dispatched to landlord and tenant of a final 2 business statement; [286969] ADR decision within one business day of the service days provider receiving such notification from the ADR service (3) what rating was reported by the Deposit (excluding the day of notification) Protection Service in relation to each of its key 11. All scheduled monthly reports and invoices, fully in By the time accordance with the agreement, provided to the authority by specified performance indicators in each of the last six months. the time specified in the Agreement [286971] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: The Deposit Protection Service (DPS) Communities and Local Government what the budget is required to submit monthly reports on 11 key of the Deposit Protection Service is for (a) 2009-10 performance indicators, listed as follows, under the and (b) 2010-11. [286970] terms of its contract with Communities and Local Government. The reports are commercially confidential Mr. Ian Austin: The Deposit Protection Service is a and will not be placed in the Library. However, I can Government authorised tenancy deposit protection scheme report that in each of the last six months, the DPS met but is self-financing and does not receive a budget from or exceeded all of the performance targets. Communities and Local Government.

Key performance indicator Target Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) 1. Call answer: All calls to the helpline to be answered by a 90 seconds customer service representative within a monthly average of landlords and (b) lettings agents were registered with 90 seconds within the defined hours of operation the Deposit Protection Service in each of the last three 2. System availability: Availability of web access to the 99 per cent. years. [286973] system for end users; Provision of a web/online interface available, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, exclusive of scheduled downtime Mr. Ian Austin: The total number of landlords and 3. Time needed for a substantive response to written, e-mail 4 business letting agents registered with the Deposit Protection and web-based inquiries and complaints (including to days Service at the end of each year since the scheme began provide confirmation of deposit protection to tenants): in April 2007 is set out as follows. Responses to written inquiries (including fax) dispatched within four business days (excluding the day of receipt) Letting agents registered Landlords registered 4. Confirmation of registration dispatched to landlord 3 business (cumulative figure) (cumulative figure) within three business days of receipt of a completed days registration by phone, paper, or online (excluding the day of As at 31 December 7,825 66,684 registration) 2007 5. Deposit funds that are given to service provider banked in 99 per cent. As at 31 December 11,928 130,559 a timely manner: (i.e. cheques or any other payment made to 2008 service provider) by banking close on the business day following the business day of receipt of deposit funds by the As at 14 July 2009 14,399 163,193 service provider 6. Confirmation dispatched to landlord of deposit protection 2 business Derelict Land and provision of required tenancy information within two days business days of funds being cleared by deposit holder (excluding business day on which funds are cleared) Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 7. Deposit plus interest is returned to the appropriate 100 per cent. Communities and Local Government what area of recipient(s) within 10 days from the day that the service land designated as brown field in each county in 1997 provider receives confirmation of its release (i.e. after agreement, ADR decision notification, court decision), has since been dedesignated; and what estimate he has (including day of receipt of notification). made of the area of such land which has been built 8. Deposit plus interest is returned to the appropriate 98 per cent. upon since 1997. [286575] recipient(s) within five days from the day that the service provider receives confirmation of its release (i.e. after agreement, ADR decision notification, court decision), Mr. Ian Austin: No information is available on what (including day of receipt of notification) land was designated as brownfield in 1997. Information 9. Resolution of disputes by the ADR service within 28 days 95 per cent. on the stock of brownfield land by region from 1998 is from the notification of dispute (following agreement by available from the National Land Use Database of both landlord and tenant to use the ADR service, (excluding the day of notification)) Previously-Developed Land and is given in the following table:

Hectares 2001 on 1998 Government office region 1998 specification 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

North East 4,120 4,850 4,930 4,780 4,360 4,540 4,230 3,970 4,030 North West 8,370 10,390 10,710 11,770 11,390 11,830 11,860 11,060 10,910 Yorkshire and the Humber 8,930 8,880 9,010 8,000 8,070 8,230 8,170 8,580 9,110 East Midlands 5,610 5,960 6,140 6,390 5,870 5,660 5,540 6,240 6,360 West Midlands 5,040 5,600 5,850 6,560 6,420 6,250 6,980 6,050 5,930

East of England 6,950 7,560 7,820 7,540 7,930 7,360 6,830 7,190 6,890 London 2,820 3,710 4,590 3,520 3,430 3,290 3,080 3,640 3,930 South East 9,740 9,120 9,870 10,910 10,860 10,370 10,130 9,930 8,990 489W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 490W

Hectares 2001 on 1998 Government office region 1998 specification 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

South West 6,110 6,340 6,580 6,650 7,420 6,570 6,660 6,070 5,960

England 57,710 62,420 65,500 66,110 65,760 64,130 63,490 62,730 62,130

Information at county level for land which has been Fire Services de-designated, and the acreage of land which has been built on could be provided only at disproportionate Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State cost. for Communities and Local Government (1) what the latest timetable is for each of the regional fire control Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal room to become fully operational; whether any control room is expected to go live before June 2010; and if he Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State will make a statement; [283696] for Communities and Local Government what (2) when he expects the new London fire control representations he has received on provision for waste centre to be operational. [283833] bins in the design of new residential developments. [286509] Mr. Malik: I refer the hon. Member to the written statement I made to the House today which sets out the Mr. Ian Austin: The Government receive a range of latest position on the FiReControl project. representations from groups and individuals on a wide range of topics including the provision of waste bins in Fire Services: Manpower residential developments. I refer the hon. Member to the answers given on 12 March 2009, Official Report, Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for columns 741-42W and 29 October 2008, Official Report, Communities and Local Government how many fire columns 1144-45W as examples. The provision of and fighters were employed at fire stations in (a) the North access to for solid waste, such as waste bins, is addressed East, (b) Tees Valley and (c) Middlesbrough South by Part H6 of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations, and East Cleveland constituency in each year since and in Category 5 (Was 1) of the Code for Sustainable 1997. [285328] Homes. Mr. Malik: Available data on the number of firefighters Empty Dwelling Management Orders are shown in the tables. This is for: (a) the north-east, and for (b) the Tees Valley areas of Cleveland and of Darlington. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Fire fighter strength data for Darlington, and both for Communities and Local Government what headcount and strength data for Middlesbrough South guidance his Department and its agencies have issued and East Cleveland constituency are not held centrally (a) (b) to local authorities in each region and each and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. London borough in relation to the use of empty dwelling management orders. [286521] (a) Number of firefighters, the north-east of England, 1999 to 2008 Headcount Strength At Retained Retained Mr. Ian Austin: The Department supported the guidance 31 March Whole-time duty Wholetime1 duty2 on Empty Dwelling Management Orders which was launched by the independent Empty Homes Agency on 1999 2,195 450 2,195 343 10 March. A foreword to the guidance was provided by 2000 2,213 456 2,213 371 the then Minister of State for Housing and Planning. 2001 2,224 442 2,222 351 Individual guidance is provided on demand to all local 2002 2,239 456 2,239 396 authorities by my officials. 2003 2,201 449 2,236 390 2004 2,140 455 2,138 393 Faith and Social Cohesion Unit 2005 2,086 456 2,086 419 2006 2,051 485 2,049 414 2007 2,049 477 2,040 406 Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 2,031 471 2,031 393 Communities and Local Government what support his 1 In full-time equivalents (FTEs) Department is giving to the Charity Commission’s 2 In 24-hour units of cover. Figures include volunteers and members of private brigades, Faith and Social Cohesion Unit. [286105] Source: Annual Returns to CLG Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and (b) (i) Number of firefighters, Cleveland, 1999 to 2008 Local Government is part-funding the Charity Headcount Strength At Retained Retained Commission’s Faith and Social Cohesion Unit to a 1 2 total of £1.3 million over financial years 2007-08, 2008-09, 31 March Whole-time duty Wholetime duty and 2009-10. The Charity Commission is also contributing 1999 603 85 603 66 £200,000 over each of these financial years through 2000 589 89 589 69 staff resources. 2001 601 80 601 62 491W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 492W

(b) (i) Number of firefighters, Cleveland, 1999 to 2008 Data on refuse fires are calculated from aggregate Headcount Strength monthly returns. These are limited to the total number At Retained Retained of refuse and refuse container fires attended by each fire 1 2 31 March Whole-time duty Wholetime duty and rescue service. These provide insufficient information 2002 610 85 610 66 to make an estimate on the number of wheeled refuse 2003 586 89 589 69 container fires. 2004 570 87 570 66 The total number of refuse and refuse container fires 2005 563 90 563 72 is shown in the table for the latest year for which 2006 561 84 559 66 information are available. 2007 562 81 562 62 2008 542 94 542 72 The recently implemented electronic incident recording 1 In full-time equivalents (FTEs) system (IRS) records both the number and location of 2 In 24-hour units of cover. Figures include volunteers and members of private all incidents attended by fire and rescue services. The brigades number and location of wheeled refuse container fires Source: Annual Returns to CLG attended by fire and rescue services will therefore be (b) (ii) Number of firefighters, Darlington, 1997 to 2008 available, with the first data being for 2009-10. Headcount1 Strength2 Total refuse and refuse container fires, England, 20071 At Retained Retained FRS area 20071 31 March Whole-time Duty3 Wholetime4 Duty5 England 108,335 1999 64 0 n/a n/a Avon 1,489 2000 64 0 n/a n/a Bedfordshire 911 2001 68 0 n/a n/a Berkshire 831 2002 68 0 n/a n/a Buckinghamshire 1,181 2003 68 0 n/a n/a Cambridgeshire 941 2004 68 0 n/a n/a Cheshire 2,881 2005 56 0 n/a n/a 2006 56 0 n/a n/a Cleveland 3,853 2007 56 0 n/a n/a Cornwall 320 2008 56 0 n/a n/a Cumbria 1,305 n/a = data not available Derbyshire 1,230 1 Figures exclude Group Manager and Station Manager grades, therefore report Devon 1,459 fire-fighter personnel only. 2 Annual return data is for establishment only and is not broken down by Dorset 525 station. Durham 2,419 3 Darlington has no retained duty fire-fighters. East Sussex 862 4 In full-time equivalents (FTEs). 5 In 24-hour units of cover. Figures include volunteers and members of private Gloucestershire 618 brigades. Greater London 12,478 Source: Durham and Darlington Fire and Rescue Service Greater Manchester 10,451 Hampshire 2,512 Fires: Domestic Waste Hereford and Worcester 621 Hertfordshire 1,197 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Humberside 3,459 for Communities and Local Government what steps Isle of Wight 130 fire authorities have taken to examine the causes of Isles of Stilly 0 wheeled refuse container fires; and if he will make a Kent 2,326 statement. [286523] Lancashire 4,362 Leicestershire 1,429 Lincolnshire 965 Mr. Malik: All fires are investigated by fire and rescue services and a most likely cause is determined Merseyside 6,493 either by the incident commander or a fire investigation Norfolk 861 officer. North Yorkshire 940 Northamptonshire 1,409 Local analysis of fire data is undertaken within fire and rescue services to determine trends, such as geographical Northumberland 949 locations or types of incident, and to inform the Integrated Nottinghamshire 1,983 Risk Management Planning process. This data is used Oxfordshire 553 internally and is not shared with Communities and Shropshire 784 Local Government. Somerset 541 South Yorkshire 5,563 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Staffordshire 2,327 for Communities and Local Government if he will Suffolk 713 estimate the number of wheeled refuse container fires Surrey 916 in England in the last 12 months. [286567] Tyne and Wear 6,050 Warwickshire 816 Mr. Malik: The number of wheeled refuse container West Midlands 7,029 fires is not yet held centrally and so could be provided West Sussex 728 only at a disproportionate cost. West Yorkshire 8,407 493W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 494W

Total refuse and refuse container fires, England, 20071 Guidance for Local Authorities on Translation of FRS area 20071 Publications Wiltshire 518 1 Data for 2007 are provisional and subject to change Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Source: for Communities and Local Government pursuant to CLG the answer to the hon. Member for the Wrekin of 4 February 2009, Official Report, column 1292W, on Flats: Construction what date Guidance for Local Authorities on Translation of Publications was issued. [286568]

Mr. Clapham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Malik: Guidance for Local Authorities on Communities and Local Government if he will ensure Translation of Publications was published on 7 December that blocks of flats of a height of 30 metres or more 2007. It is available from: completed or refurbished after April 2007 are fitted www.communities.gov.uk/publications/communities/ [286346] with sprinkler systems. translationguidance

Mr. Ian Austin: The Building Regulations 2000 require Housing: Hertfordshire that “where reasonably necessary to inhibit the spread of fire within the building” Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how many automatic fire suppression systems and/or fire resisting affordable homes have been built in (a) Hemel Hempstead construction should be provided in new buildings. constituency, (b) Dacorum and (c) Hertfordshire in In April 2007, the guidance given in Approved Document each of the last five years; [285895] B (Fire safety), which shows one way in which this (2) how many homes for social rent have been built requirement can be met, was amended to provide that in (a) Hemel Hempstead constituency, (b) Dacorum both a sprinkler system and fire resisting construction and (c) Hertfordshire in each of the last five years. should be provided in new blocks of flats over 30 m in [285896] height. The building regulations apply to building work. Mr. Ian Austin: Information on new homes built for Therefore, where a building is being refurbished and social rent and affordable housing is not available by building work is being undertaken then that work will constituency. need to comply with the relevant requirements of the The following table shows the number of new affordable regulations and the rest of the building should be made homes built in Dacorum local authority and Hertfordshire no worse as a result of the work being carried out. in each of the last five years. Furthermore, the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 requires those with responsibility for the 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 building (usually the employer, owner or occupier) to Dacorum 140 20 20 120 190 carry out a fire risk assessment based on the particular Hertfordshire 860 690 760 1,540 1,110 circumstances and use of the premises. Under the order, the responsible person must put in place whatever fire The following table shows the number of new social protection measures are adequate and appropriate to rented homes built in Dacorum local authority and mitigate the risk to life in the event of a fire. The order is Hertfordshire in each of the last five years. not prescriptive about what specific fire safety measures are required. This is a matter for the responsible person 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 based on the outcome of their risk assessment. Dacorum 110 0 10 50 100 Hertfordshire 760 550 530 890 620 Green Belt Source: Homes and Communities Agency investment Management System (IMS), and local authority returns to CLG. Figures have been rounded Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for to nearest 10 units. Communities and Local Government what area of Not all social rented and affordable housing is provided land designated as green belt in each county in 1997 by new build completions, as some supply can come has since been dedesignated; and what area of land has from acquisitions. For example, in 2007-08, a total of been designated as green belt since 1997. [286473] 210 additional affordable homes were provided in Dacorum (new build and acquisitions), and 1,310 additional affordable Mr. Ian Austin: The information requested is not held homes were provided in Hertfordshire (new build and centrally. However, statistics on the area of green belt acquisitions). land are published in Local Planning Authority Green Belt Statistics: England 2008-09 which can be found at: Housing: Low Incomes http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ statistics/lagreenbelt2008 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for The table in Annex 4 provides estimates of the area of Communities and Local Government pursuant to the green belt by region for 1997 and 2008-09, and for answer of 5 May 2009, Official Report, column 135W, selected intervening years. on housing: low incomes, what the average amount of 495W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 496W grant paid for (a) intermediate affordable housing and Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities (b) housing for social rent in each region was in each and Local Government how many properties had been of the last five years. [282584] sold under the HomeBuy Direct Scheme in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point at the latest date for which figures Mr. Ian Austin: The average amount of grant per unit are available. [285478] paid through the Homes and Communities Agency’s Affordable Housing programme by region for social John Healey: Provisional figures for the end of June rent and intermediate affordable housing in each year 2009 show there were over 20 HomeBuy Direct sales 2005-06 to 2008-09 is as follows: completed in the Eastern region. We do not currently have statistically valid data for Essex or Castle Point. Social rent—average grant per unit 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Housing: Overcrowding

East Midlands 37,879 38,792 38,736 39,939 East of England 41,623 35,108 29,376 42,328 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities London 80,979 83,821 94,957 97,715 and Local Government what estimate he has made of North East 53,301 45,189 59,354 46,067 the number of families living in overcrowded conditions North West 58,916 51,159 50,277 53,179 in the latest period for which figures are available; and if South East 52,325 55,190 49,973 53,444 he will make a statement. [287387] South West 40,992 33,376 42,304 40,004 West Midlands 52,615 43,245 43,381 46,260 Mr. Ian Austin: The latest estimate of the number of York and Humber 38,495 45,667 41,176 44,711 overcrowded households in England was published in National 55,353 55,796 57,289 57,306 January 2009 as part of the Survey of English Housing Preliminary Report: 2007-08 and is 565,000. This is Intermediate housing—average grant per unit based on the average of three years of the Survey of 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 English Housing from 2005-06 to 2007-08. Overcrowding East Midlands 18,846 17,626 16,417 19,006 is defined according to the bedroom standard. East of England 27,631 19,427 13,849 26,369 Housing: Single People London 46,187 41,951 41,421 44,749 North East 10,097 20,650 18,240 22,590 North West 27,996 26,921 24,937 28,226 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for South East 27,644 24,084 19,999 25,414 Communities and Local Government how many South West 18,255 15,001 16,041 21,463 people were living in single person dwellings in each West Midlands 23,095 20,228 15,556 23,581 region in each of the last 30 years. [285691] York and Humber 15,347 17,817 21,051 27,830 National 31,795 28,927 25,524 30,313 Mr. Ian Austin: The particular data requested has not Source: previously been published, however data on household Homes and Communities Agency size by tenure is published in the annual Survey of English Housing reports. The most recent data can be Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for found in table 3 of the Survey of English Housing Communities and Local Government how many of the Preliminary Report 2007-08 available at: 20,000 additional energy efficient affordable homes www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/pdf/ referred to on page 38 of the Building Britain’s Future 1133551.pdf publication are planned to be for (a) social rent and The following table provides estimates of the number (b) low cost home ownership. [283618] of one person households in each region for 1999 to 2008 inclusive. Estimates by region for the years previous Mr. Ian Austin: The Government estimate that around to this could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 13,250 of the 20,000 additional energy-efficient affordable The overall number of one person households in England homes will referred to in Building Britain’s Future will in 1981 was 3,823,000 and in 1991 it was 5,039,000. The be for social rent, and around 6,750 for low cost home estimates are based on data from the ONS Labour ownership. Force Survey.

Number of one person households, England Thousands of households Region 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

North East 309 318 332 340 339 351 337 350 340 362 North West 784 779 784 829 778 814 824 811 873 876 Yorks and Humberside 600 610 618 636 642 646 628 632 669 688 East Midlands 439 464 447 464 482 505 467 506 536 525 West Midlands 573 583 562 618 604 585 586 586 611 631 Eastern 584 609 619 617 593 605 625 653 631 665 London 878 896 899 902 922 889 876 878 837 859 South East 883 864 881 933 976 941 996 972 942 937 South West 568 577 596 613 616 596 594 622 633 610 Total 5,619 5,701 5,737 5,953 5,953 5,931 5,931 6,009 6,073 6,154 Source: ONS Labour Force Survey. 497W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 498W

International Comparison of Geographical Trading Project to roll out the lessons to mosque schools nationally. Models Apart from fulfilling their contractual obligations, the SDSA and community-based organisations have made Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for no financial contribution towards the ICE Project. Communities and Local Government what the terms of reference were for the Ordnance Survey report entitled International Comparison of Geographical Trading Local Government: Data Protection Models; who was responsible for commissioning the report; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for report. [284789] Communities and Local Government how many (a) attempts and (b) successful attempts made to gain Mr. Ian Austin: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I unauthorised access to (i) databases and (ii) ICT systems gave to the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) run by each local authority were reported to his Department on 14 July 2009, Official Report, column 316W. in each of the last five years; and if he will make a The report was commissioned in April 2009 by my statement. [286550] hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Wright). The terms of reference were: Mr. Malik: This issue is a matter for individual local “To provide a broad comparison of various trading models authorities who, like all public sector organisations are used by a representative sample of National Mapping Agencies required to comply with data protection legislation. with the current model operated by Ordnance Survey, and to The Local Government Association (LGA) have understand their impact on the range, quality, currency and published “Data Handling Guidelines for Local provision of national mapping, and of its use.” Government” to complement the Central Government Data Handling Guidelines published by the Cabinet Islam Office. We welcome the LGA guidelines which are available online at: Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.idea.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=9040133 Communities and Local Government pursuant to paragraph 9.21 of the UK Strategy for Countering International Terrorism, Cm 7547, what projects his Local Government: Translation Services Department is supporting with universities to work with Muslim scholars, leaders and academics on contextualising Islam in Britain; and which universities, John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for scholars and academics are involved. [286109] Communities and Local Government what changes in levels of provision of translation and interpreting services Mr. Malik: Cambridge university, in association with have been made by local authorities in the last 12 months. the universities of Exeter and Westminster, have hosted [286724] a series of seminars to explore how Islamic theology and Muslim communities might respond to the challenges Mr. Malik: The Department does not collect data of living in modern Britain. on this. We provided Guidance for Local Authorities on The discussions and debates will be captured in a Translation of Publications and this was published on report and published by Cambridge university in autumn 7 December 2007. It is available at: this year. The report will feedback the views of participants www.communities.gov.uk/publications/communities/ on the issues discussed. translationguidance This project is being independently led by Cambridge university who have included imams, scholars and leaders from a diverse range of backgrounds. Mortgages: Government Assistance

Islam: Faith Schools Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Answer of 9 July 2009, Official Report, column 959W, Communities and Local Government what contribution on mortgages: Government assistance, on what date his Department has made to support the development (a) the Bank of Ireland, (b) GMAC, (c) Kensington of citizenship education in mosque schools through the Mortgages, (d) GE Money and (e) the Post Office Islam Citizenship Education Project. [286110] joined the Homeowners Mortgage Support Scheme. [286972] Mr. Malik: The Islam and Citizenship Education (ICE) Project is jointly funded by the Department for John Healey: GE Money joined the Homeowners Children, Schools and Families (DCSF) and the Mortgage Support Scheme on 15 July 2009. The Department for Communities and Local Government. Department has continued to maintain close contact The DCSF awarded a contract, worth £318,652, to the with Bank of Ireland, GMAC, Kensington Mortgages, School Development Support Agency (SDSA) running GE Money and the Post Office in regard to joining the from February 2008 to July 2009 to develop and pilot Homeowners Mortgage Support. All lenders have restated citizenship lessons for use in mosque schools. The SDSA, their commitment to the scheme and continue to work working in conjunction with Muslim communities, has with the Department to implement the operational and successfully delivered this contract. We are currently in system requirements necessary to offer the scheme to the process of tendering for the next stage of the ICE their customers as soon as possible. 499W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 500W

Non-domestic Rates: Ports of sanitary provision for disabled people, and revised guidance would be scheduled to come into force in Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013. Communities and Local Government whether he plans In addition, this Department’s Strategic Guide on to take legal action against port owners for non- ‘Improving Public Access to Better Quality Toilets’, payment of business rates owed as part of their cumulo published last year, highlighted what local authorities, rental agreements. [286121] who have powers to provide public conveniences, and their partners can do to improve public access to toilets Ms Rosie Winterton: The collection and enforcement in their area. This included a section that drew attention of rates for properties on the local rating lists is a matter to the Changing Places campaign, and stressed the for local authorities. importance of these facilities to people with profound and multiple learning disabilities. Public Lavatories: Disabled Social Rented Housing: Hertfordshire Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government what proportion and Local Government what his policy is on the provision of (a) local authority and (b) housing association of Changing Places public conveniences. [285732] homes in (i) Hemel Hempstead constituency, (ii) Dacorum and (iii) Hertfordshire met the Decent Mr. Ian Austin: We are keen to see increasing numbers Homes standard in each of the last five years. [285897] of changing places toilets, and will be exploring in detail what role Building Regulations might play in Mr. Ian Austin: The proportion of dwellings that met supporting improvements in provision at a national the Decent Homes standard in each of the last five level. In order to do this, we will shortly be commencing years are listed in the following table. Data for Hemel a review of part M (access to and use of buildings) of Hempstead is not available as the constituency crosses the Building Regulations, which includes consideration several administrative boundaries.

Proportion of decent dwellings Percentage Local authority Registered social landlord 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Dacorum 96.7 97.1 97.3 95.9 99.20 n/a 87.6 83.7 91 91.2 Hertfordshire 84.2 83.7 83.4 80.4 83.9 n/a 87.6 87.5 90.6 88.9 Source: Annual returns, from all LAs that retain social housing stock, to Communities and Local Government and annual return from Registered social landlords.

Social Rented Housing: Immigrants Standard in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10 to date; and how much is expected to be so spent in Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 2010-11. [283971] for Communities and Local Government whether the proposals relating to council and other social housing Mr. Ian Austin: Information from the Homes and waiting lists in the Draft Legislative Programme 2009, Communities Agency and Tenant Services Authority Cm 7654, will apply to (a) immigrants from other EU using statistical returns submitted by local authorities member states and (b) asylum seekers from outside and registered social landlords indicate what we expect the EU. [283770] to be spent on expenditure maintaining the condition of social housing stock, including up to the Decent Homes Mr. Ian Austin: Our proposals will give local authorities standard. This information is set out in the table. more flexibility to take into account local needs and priorities when determining their allocation policies. In £ billion different localities, this might mean giving relatively Total investment LA RSL more priority to people who: 2007-08 (outturn 4.15 3.21 0.94 Can bring necessary skills to the area, as part of efforts to figures) promote a stronger economy 2008-09 4.48 3.49 0.99 Are living in overcrowded conditions—if this is a serious local 2009-10 4.25 3.21 1.04 concern 2010-11 3.75 2.85 10.90 Have local family connections—if housing markets make private 1 Assumed figure rental or ownership unaffordable for many Are engaging with training opportunities—where there is a particular need to address skills shortages and worklessness Have waited longest—where this is seen as the fairest means of BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS distinguishing between otherwise similar applicants. Business: Government Assistance Social Rented Housing: Standards Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, Department Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Communities and Local Government how much has answer to the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford been spent on bringing homes up to the Decent Homes of 2 April 2009, Official Report, column 1443W, on the 501W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 502W

Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme, how many Mr. Marsden: To ask the Minister of State, Department applications have been received for guarantees under for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme to date; how Department has made of the number of (a) places many of those applications have been eligible for help available for applicants in and (b) applications for under the scheme; what the monetary value of such entry to university in 2009. [286023] guarantees applied for by eligible applicants to date is; how many eligible applications have been processed and Mr. Lammy [holding answer 13 July 2009]: As of approved to date; and what the monetary value of such 30 June, there had been 487,356 applicants to full-time guarantees processed and approved to date is. [270428] undergraduate courses for entry in 2009. This is based on UCAS data, and covers UK and EU domiciled Ms Rosie Winterton: I refer the hon. Member to the applicants to English institutions. UCAS data does not answer I gave to the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) provide a complete picture. It does not cover all institutions, on 13 July 2009, Official Report, column 186W. or applications for part-time or postgraduate study. We do not have an estimate of the total number of Economic Challenge Investment Fund places available in 2009. This will depend on a number of factors—including growth in non-funded places and Tony Baldry: To ask the Minister of State, Department part-time provision. for Business, Innovation and Skills what the procedure In terms of HEFCE funded growth, the 2009 Grant is for (a) individuals and (b) businesses to apply for Letter provides teaching grant for 10,000 Additional funding from the Economic Challenge Investment Fund. Student Numbers (ASNs) in 2009-10. ASNs refer to [286630] full-time equivalent places, and do not purely relate to entrants. They are also used to accommodate second or Mr. Lammy: The Economic Challenge Investment subsequent cohorts related to entrant expansion in earlier Fund (ECIF) is a Higher Education Funding Council years. HEFCE estimate that the allocation these ASNs for England (HEFCE) matched funding initiative available funds an additional 10,000 part-time entrant places (in to higher education institutions with a total value of headcount terms) and 3,000 full-time entrant places in just over £58 million. The fund was set up to help the 2009. This is in addition to the number of entrants in sector provide swift and responsive support to individuals 2008. Data on the number of entrants in 2008 will not and businesses affected by the economic downturn. be available until early 2010. Individuals and businesses can access support directly from those higher education institutions successful in Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, securing additional funding through ECIF. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many first degree undergraduates from (a) England Higher Education: Admissions and (b) other EU member states have been enrolled at a university in each year since 2005. [286835] Mr. Marsden: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his Mr. Lammy: The latest figures from the Higher Education Department has made of the change in numbers of Statistics Agency (HESA) are shown in the table. Figures Universities and Colleges Admissions Service applications for the 2008-09 academic year will be available in January from applicants in each (a) age group, (b) region and 2010. (c) socio-economic group between 2008-09 and 2009-10. Domiciled first degree enrolments1 UK higher education institutions [285716] Academic year English Other EU

Mr. Lammy: The latest figures published by UCAS 2005-06 933,690 48,040 showing applicants as at 30 June, are shown in the 2006-07 940,650 51,780 tables. UCAS has not released any data on socio-economic 2007-08 954,700 56,820 1 Cover enrolments to both full-time and part-time courses. group for 2009 entry. Note: UK domiciled applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in the UK at Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been 30 June by age rounded to the nearest five. Source: UK domiciled Percentage Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). students 2008 2009 change

Under 21 357,986 381,916 6.7 Higher Education: York 21-24 48,993 57,443 17.2 25 and over 54,535 66,557 22.0 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister of State, Department Total 461,514 505,916 9.6 for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding UK domiciled applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in the UK at 30 June per (a) undergraduate and (b) postgraduate student by home country his Department and its predecessors allocated to (i) the Country of Percentage University of York and (ii) York St. John University in domicile 2008 2009 change each year since 1998. [285700] England 390,358 429,734 10.1 Scotland 33,890 35,892 5.9 Mr. Lammy: This information is not held in the form Wales 20,577 22,839 11.0 requested. However, it is possible to provide notional Northern Ireland 16,689 17,451 4.6 figures for the amount of grant distributed by the Total 461,514 505,916 9.6 Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Source: for teaching and research apportioned by the number of UCAS learners (full time equivalent) in each year. It should be 503W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 504W noted that there have been some significant changes in LDV HEFCE’s funding methodology over this period which means that the following table should not be read as a Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, Department time series. In addition the data does not take account for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is of other sources of public funding, for example from taking to ensure that employees of LDV receive employment the NHS or the Research Councils. Crucially it should advice and support; and if he will make a statement. be borne in mind that institutions have a significant [279358] degree of freedom in terms of how its grant is distributed internal. It is for that reason that the figures given are Jim Knight: I have been asked to reply. notional and should not be read as the actual level of This question has been passed to me as the Department resource attached to any particular learner. for Work and Pensions and Jobcentre Plus are responsible for the action being taken to help people who are made £ per academic year redundant. The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a York St. John University University of York matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Study Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right hon. level UG PGT PGR UG PGT PGR Member with the information requested. 1998-99 2,276 418 1,185 2,942 1,842 6,332 Letter from Mel Groves: 1999- 2,355 477 1,898 3,008 1,964 6,593 2000 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question asking, what steps we are taking to ensure that employees of LDV 2000-01 2,540 429 1,258 3,083 2,005 6,452 receive employment advice and support. This is something that 2001-02 2,707 594 1,715 3,118 1,920 6,686 falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief 2002-03 2,752 222 954 3,159 1,720 7,275 Executive of Jobcentre Plus. 2003-04 2,988 440 662 3,110 1,663 7,985 In response to LDV entering administration, we formed a Task 2004-05 3,522 359 1,458 3,344 1,484 8,515 Force in partnership with Birmingham City Council, Advantage 2005-06 3,695 350 n/a 3,438 1,540 6,210 West Midlands, the Regional Development Agency, the Learning 2006-07 3,897 509 n/a 3,668 1,672 5,149 and Skills Council and Unity, its regional redundancy response 2007-08 4,075 642 n/a 3,895 1,828 5,854 contractor. 2008-09 4,078 927 n/a 4,088 1,911 5,806 From 8 June, Washwood Heath Jobcentre Plus set up a telephone Key: hotline to take new claims appointments for all those workers UG: Undergraduate being made redundant. These redundant workers attended LDV’s PGT: Postgraduate taught premises on 11 and 12 June to meet with representatives of PGR: Postgraduate research PricewaterhouseCoopers together with Jobcentre Plus and partners to provide advice. Islam: Higher Education Claims for Jobseeker’s Allowance from the LDV Workforce were taken at Washwood Heath Jobcentre Plus on 13 and 14 June. The Pension, Disability and Carers Service, HM Revenue and Mr. Wallace: To ask the Minister of State, Department Customs and Birmingham City Council attended over the weekend for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to at the Jobcentre to give advice on pensions, tax credits, Housing Benefit, financial management and debt issues. paragraph 9.21 of the UK Strategy for Countering International Terrorism, Cm 7457, how much of the The former LDV workers are being offered a tailored package of support to help them get back into work as quickly as possible. £1 million which the Higher Education Funding Council This includes help and advice with their jobsearch, CV writing, for England has committed for work on the gaps in interview techniques, training and identified employment opportunities. Islamic studies teaching and research has been allocated; This package of help and support will be available across the West and to what projects. [286114] Midlands region and will be delivered by a range of partner organisations including the union Unity. The support package for LDV workers is being co-ordinated from the Jobcentre Plus Mr. Lammy: In June 2007, the Government designated Office in Washwood Heath and all LDV workers will be offered Islamic Studies as a strategically important subject and .access to this help. asked HEFCE to earmark £1 million of its existing funding to develop a programme of work to support London Metropolitan University this. To date, HEFCE has allocated: Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on what date his £100,000 towards commissioning research into Islamic Studies Department was first informed of the Higher Education in higher education, building on Dr. Siddiqui’s report on Islam at universities in England, and holding consultation events and Funding Council for England’s audit of student with the Islamic Studies community at: numbers and course completion rates at London Metropolitan University. [283560] http://www.hefce.ac.uk/aboutus/sis/islamic £850,000 towards the development and implementation of a Mr. Lammy [holding answer 2 July 2009]: Ministers UK Islamic Studies network to bring the community of UK and officials in the Department were first informed Islamic Studies scholars closer together. The Higher Education about HEFCE’s audit findings in February 2008. Academy (HEA) and the Joint Information Systems Committee (JISC) are taking this forward at: Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department http://www.hefce.ac.uk/aboutus/sis/islamic/network for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is In the coming year, HEFCE is commissioning a taking to protect (a) student places and (b) staff jobs symposium for Islamic Studies scholars across the UK at London Metropolitan University following the Higher and Europe. Hosted by the British Academy, the symposium Education and Funding Council for England’s request will promote the UK as a centre of excellence in Europe for repayment of funds allocated to the university in for Islamic Studies. previous years. [283561] 505W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 506W

Mr. Lammy [holding answer 2 July 2009]: It is an following the Westminster Hall adjournment debate of important principle set out in legislation (sections 65(1) 20 May 2009, Official Report, columns 435-57WH. and 68(2b) of the Further and Higher Education Act [283745] 1992) that Ministers cannot intervene in the funding decisions for individual institutions made by the Higher Mr. Lammy [holding answer 2 July 2009]: I fully Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). As supported the Funding Council’s decision to commission is the case with other universities, London Metropolitan an independent review of its own handling of the University receives grant from HEFCE under a Financial situation at London Metropolitan university. It has also Memorandum which sets out how it should properly always been my view that a similar review should be account for its public funding. It is for the Funding conducted into the actions of the university itself, and I Council to keep the financial health of the institutions have made that view clear in discussions with the Funding it funds under review to protect the public interest, Council. I am therefore pleased that, London Metropolitan including ensuring that public funds are properly spent. has now commissioned Sir David Melville and Deloitte The University will wish to consider a bid to HEFCE’s to conduct such a review. I believe that this must look at Strategic Development Fund to support its future plans. all aspects of what happened at London Metropolitan, The final decision on restructuring and forward planning including issues of governance. must rest with the University and I remain confident Post Office Card Account that Higher Education provision in general across London will be sufficient to meet the diversity of demand. No Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Minister of State, Government though can give a commitment to protect Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what every course or department at any particular institution. progress has been made in the discussions between Xafinity Paymaster and the Post Office on the payment Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department of armed forces pensions into the Post Office Card for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will ensure Account. [284813] publication of the KPMG report commissioned by the Higher Education and Funding Council for England Mr. Kevan Jones: I have been asked to reply. (HEFCE) into the finances of London Metropolitan I will write to the right hon. Member with the information University on its receipt by HEFCE. [283562] requested shortly. Mr. Lammy [holding answer 2 July 2009]: The Funding Students: Fees and Charges Council’s Board and Chief Executive commissioned a report from KPMG of the lessons to be learned from its Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, recent engagement with London Metropolitan University. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what It is for the Council to take decisions on publication. I estimate he has made of the total receipts from university have, however, been assured that it will be made available tuition fees debt repayments in each year from 2009-10 as soon as the Funding Council has had an opportunity to 2019-20. [286228] to consider the findings of the report. This is expected to happen before the end of July. Mr. Lammy: Provisional figures for income contingent student loan repayments, either notified to or received Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, by the Student Loans Company, in the financial year Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what 2008-09 were £788.3 million1. It is not possible to break discussions (a) Ministers and (b) officials have had down this figure to amounts repaid for tuition fee loans with the Higher Education and Funding Council for and maintenance loans, as they are consolidated in the England on the (i) finances of and (ii) student numbers borrower’s loan account. at London Metropolitan University; and on what dates Estimates of income contingent student loan repayments those discussions took place. [283563] will depend on a number of factors, including student numbers, graduate income levels and patterns of behaviour. Mr. Lammy [holding answer 10 July 2009]: HEFCE Estimates for 2009-10 and 2010-11 are approximately discussed the current situation at London Metropolitan £1.2 billion and £1.4 billion respectively. Estimates for university with Ministers in February 2008, 24 March later years are not available. 2009, 6 May 2009, 10 June 2009 and 8 July 2009. In addition there were discussions at HEFCE’s board meeting Figures for financial year 2009-10 are expected be on 28 February 2008, 8 May 2008, 17 December 2008, published in a Statistical First Release in summer 2010. 22 January 2009, 26 February 2009, 1 April 2009, and 1 This figure covers direct repayments to SLC, and HMRC 7 May 2009. A senior official from the Department was notifications of repayments collected through the tax system sent through to SLC in that year, less refunds by SLC to customers present at each of these meetings. There have been where borrowers have over paid their loans—English domiciled regular discussions between HEFCE and other students studying in the UK and EU students studying in England. departmental officials throughout this period. Source: Ministers and officials have not sought to influence SLC Statistical First Release 2002-09 published 25 June 2009. decisions on the finances of or the student numbers at London Metropolitan university, which under sections 65(1) Students: Radicalism and 68(2b) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 are a matter for the Funding Council. Mr. Wallace: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to paragraph Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department 9.22 of the UK Strategy for Countering International for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Terrorism, Cm 7457, what the highest priority Department has taken to ensure an independent inquiry establishments are which his Department is targeting to into the finances of London Metropolitan University reduce the risk of radicalisation on campus. [286115] 507W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 508W

Mr. Lammy: This Department prioritises support to (43.2 per cent.) held an NQF level 2 qualification or Higher Education Institutions in local authority areas higher. NQF level 2 is the equivalent to five GCSEs which receive specific Prevent funding to ensure that grade A*-C. these institutions are fully linked up to local police and These estimates are taken from the Labour Force Prevent partnerships that already exist in these areas. Survey (LFS). This is a sample survey subject to variability Further targeted support with individual institutions so numbers are rounded to the nearest thousand and will begin in the new academic year. percentages to one decimal place. 1 Age used is the respondents academic age, which is their age at Training: Logistics the preceding 31 August.

Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how much the for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of Government has spent on improving the skills of the people aged between 16 and 24 years old classified as workforce in the logistic transport industry in Wales in not in education, employment or training on the latest each of the last five years. [285562] date for which figures are available do not have a level 3 qualification. [286223] Mr. Hain: I have been asked to reply. UK Government funding for Skills for Logistics, the Kevin Brennan [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The Sector Skills Council for the logistic transport industry number of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, is provided through the UK Commission for Employment employment or training in the first quarter (January to and Skills. Over the last five financial years, they have March) of 2009 was 935,000. Of these, 79.6 per cent. provided the following funding for the UK as a whole: (744,000) did not hold a level 3 qualification. These estimates are taken from the Labour Force £ million Survey (LFS). This is a sample survey subject to variability 2004-05 1.519 so numbers are rounded to the nearest thousand and percentages to one decimal place. 2005-06 2.127 1 2006-07 2.352 Age used is the respondents academic age, which is their age at the preceding 31 August. 2007-08 1.940 2008-09 2.438 Written Questions: Government Responses

As Skills for Logistics is allocated resources to provide Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Minister of State, Department training across the UK, spending in Wales could only for Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to be disaggregated at disproportionate cost. answer question 273970, tabled on 5 May 2009, on the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow. [281292] Unemployment: Young People Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department I gave on 3 July 2009, Official Report, column 432W. for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of people aged 24 years or under were classified as not in education, employment or training on the latest date INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for which figures are available are graduates. [286221] Afghanistan

Mr. Lammy [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for number of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, International Development what expenditure his employment or training in the first quarter (January to Department has incurred in (a) Helmand Province and March) of 2009 was 935,000. Of these, 7.2 per cent. (b) elsewhere in Afghanistan in 2009-10 to date. (67,000) held a degree level qualification (or a qualification [286922] equivalent to a degree, level 5) or higher. These estimates are taken from the Labour Force Mr. Douglas Alexander: The budget for Helmand Survey (LFS). This is a sample survey subject to variability province in 2009-10 is £18 million and the rest of so numbers are rounded to the nearest thousand and Afghanistan is £109.5 million. We anticipate spending percentages to one decimal place. our full combined budget of £127.5 million by the end of 2009-10. 1 Age used is the respondents academic age, which is their age at the preceding 31 August. The Department for International Development (DFID) publishes expenditure in its annual report and the Statistics Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department in International Development publication. These are for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people available in the Library of the House and on the DFID aged between 16 and 24 years old who were classified website: as not in education, employment or training at the www.dfid.gov.uk latest date for which figures are available have at least Afghanistan: Overseas Aid five GCSEs at grades A* to C. [286222] Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Kevin Brennan [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The International Development what funding his Department number of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, has allocated for reconstruction, development and employment or training in the first quarter (January stabilisation projects in Babaji, Helmand province following to March) of 2009 was 935,000. Of these, 404,000 the completion of Operation Panchai Palang; and what 509W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 510W steps his Department is taking to secure contributions Mr. Thomas: The UK Government are on track to from international and development agencies for such meet their commitments to Africa made at the Gleneagles projects. [286923] G8 meeting in 2005. Our expenditure in Africa is projected to reach £3.4 billion in 2010-11, from a baseline of Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for £1.26 billion in 2004-05. These spending levels were International Development (DFID) has set aside a total confirmed in the April 2009 Budget. of £72 million over the next four years to promote stability and development in Helmand province as a Armed Conflict whole, including for projects in Babaji. DFID also works with the Ministry of Defence and Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to allocate International Development which states he considers additional funding to Helmand from the cross-departmental to be fragile. [285399] Stabilisation Aid Fund (SAF). The three Departments have agreed to set aside almost £15 million of SAF Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International funding for district stabilisation projects across Helmand Development (DFID) is committed to increasing its in 2009-10. In the Babaji area, funds will be used to efforts in fragile states, and so a list is needed to monitor respond to identified needs in the areas of health, our progress. DFID’s current list combines a mix of the education, policing, elections, justice and small-scale World Bank’s Country Policy and Institutional Assessment infrastructure. Our support will enable the Afghan (CPIA) index and the Fund for Peace’s Failed States Government to re-engage in Babaji. Index (FSI). We will update the list every two years with Over the next few months, DFID will provide the next update due in October this year. £5 million and the SAF will provide an additional £3 million for wheat seed, fertiliser, and agricultural CDC assistance across Helmand province, including to farmers in Babaji. From September, USAID will provide agricultural Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for vouchers, cash for work, and small business grants International Development which countries in which throughout Helmand, which will include Babaji. CDC has investments do not meet the international tax DFID support includes two long-term infrastructure standard. [285398] projects on which we are working with our international development partners. DFID has secured co-funding Mr. Douglas Alexander: CDC has existing investments from the Asian Development Bank for the construction in six jurisdictions which, as of the progress report by of a 48 km road through the Babaji area, connecting the OECD Global Forum of 8 July 2009, have committed Lashkar Gah to Gereshk. DFID, the Asian Development to but not yet met the international tax standard of Bank and the Danish Government will also co-fund the 12 Tax Information Exchange Agreements (TIEAs). rehabilitation of a hydro-power plant in Gereshk. The These are: project is expected to triple electrical generation capacity, Cayman Islands benefiting 200,000 people. British Virgin Islands Afghanistan: Prisoners Netherlands Antilles Vanuatu Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Singapore International Development what assessment he has Malaysia made of the implications of the custodial sentence CDC will in future only commit capital to new funds imposed on journalist Sayed Pervez Kambaksh for his and direct investments in jurisdictions implementing Department’s plans to provide assistance to the legal the international tax standard and in the developing and judicial sector in Afghanistan. [285356] countries they are aiming to help. Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for Departmental Databases International Development (DFID) has no plans to provide funding to the formal legal and judicial sector in Afghanistan. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) leads for International Development pursuant to his Oral Official Report on UK assistance to the rule of law in Afghanistan. Statement of 6 July 2009, , columns FCO engagement in Afghanistan, like all UK support 701-4, on Building Our Common Future, when he to legal and judicial systems worldwide, is aimed at expects the searchable database of his Department’s improving human rights and the rule of law. The challenges funded projects will be available online. [285915] faced in the Afghan legal and judicial system demonstrate why it is so important that the UK remains engaged in Mr. Michael Foster: The date when this database will this sector. be available has not yet been established. Africa: Overseas Aid Departmental Electronic Equipment

Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment he International Development how many (a) BlackBerry has made of the Government’s progress towards its devices and (b) mobile telephones have been lost by 2005 G8 commitment to double aid for the eradication (i) Ministers, (ii) special advisers and (iii) civil servants of poverty in Africa by 2010. [285368] in his Department in each year since 2005. [274469] 511W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 512W

Mr. Michael Foster: Our records show that in the last Developing Countries five years we have had no blackberry devices lost and the total number of mobile phones lost was 13. We Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for cannot break this down further as this information is International Development what the terms of recruitment not readily available and cannot be provided without and retention for the cadre of 1,000 civilians that his incurring a disproportionate cost. Department is proposing to utilise in unstable environments The total number of mobile phones lost in each of will be. [285400] the last five years is as follows: Mr. Michael Foster: The cadre will comprise 200 civil Numbers lost servants, forming the Civil Service Stabilisation Cadre (CSSC), and 800 deployable civilian experts (DCEs) 2004-05 3 from outside the civil service. 2005-06 5 2006-07 4 The CSSC members will remain as part of their 2007-08 1 home departments when they are on the cadre. If they are selected for a deployment overseas they will seconded 2008-09 0 to the stabilisation unit for the duration of the deployment, after which they will return to their home department. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for DCEs will be recruited and remain on the database International Development how many (a) photocopiers, on a voluntary basis. No financial retainers will be paid. (b) scanning devices and (c) fax machines, excluding Regular communication with them will establish their multi-function devices, there are in his Department; continued availability and willingness to deploy. how many there were in each of the last three years; and if he will make a statement. [286170] Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development under what process individuals Mr. Michael Foster: In the Department for International may volunteer to work for the Globalisation Unit which Development’s two UK offices we have as follows: will undertake work in unstable environments. [285401]

2007 2008 2009 Mr. Michael Foster: Individuals can apply to be part of the Stabilisation Unit’s civilian capability by making Photocopiers 28 28 27 an application via the Stabilisation Unit website at Scanners 7 7 8 Fax machines 72 66 63 www.stabilisationunit.gov.uk. The cadre is made up of civil servants who can apply to Information on machines held in our overseas offices the Civil Service Stabilisation Cadre (CSSC) and those is not held centrally, and could not be obtained without from outside the civil service who can apply to be a incurring disproportionate cost. deployable civilian expert (DCE). If accepted onto the The number of fax machines has declined in recent roster, candidates will be considered for specific deployments. years, as we increasingly rely on e-mail. Scanners are mainly used in relation to our electronic document Overseas Aid management system. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Information Officers International Development pursuant to the oral statement of 6 June 2009, Official Report, columns 701-04, on his Department’s White Paper, what percentage of his Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s budget will be allocated to (a) budget International Development what the cost to his Department aid, (b) project aid and (c) funding multilateral institutions of (a) press officers and (b) other press office staff has in each year covered by the White Paper. [285395] been in each year since 1997. [283062] Mr. Michael Foster: Details on the Department for Mr. Michael Foster: The cost of press office staff International Development’s (DFID) spending plans to salaries in 2008-09 was £940,154 and for 2007-08 was 2010-11 will be included its annual report due to be £648,516; this includes permanent and agency staff. The published before the summer recess. This will be made other requested information was provided in the answer available in the Library of the House and on the DFID on 21 April 2008, Official Report, column 1426W. website: www.dfid.gov.uk Departmental Procurement Palestinians: Overseas Aid Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what changes have been made to his Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s (a) office equipment and (b) stationery International Development how much aid his purchasing policy in the last six months. [285315] Department has (a) committed to and (b) spent in Gaza in 2009-10. [286687] Mr. Michael Foster: There have been no changes to the Department for International Development’s Office Mr. Michael Foster: The total budget currently allocated Equipment or Stationery purchasing policy in the last for the Occupied Palestinian Territories for this financial six months. year is £67 million. 513W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 514W

In the first three months of 2009-10, the Department HEALTH for International Development (DFID) has spent approximately £6 million in Gaza on support to the Accident and Emergency Departments: Alcohol United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) and other organisations providing humanitarian assistance. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for A further £5.5 million is in the pipeline for Gaza, Health how many (a) people, (b) under 18 year olds, including a payment that we will soon make to the (c) under 16 year olds and (d) under 12 year olds (i) Palestinian Authority (PA) through the World Bank attended and (ii) were admitted via accident and Trust Fund. This will help pay teachers, doctors and emergency departments for excessive consumption of engineers, and keep basic services running. In addition, alcohol in each primary care trust area in England in this financial year we expect to spend a further each year since 1997-98. [285525] £7.6 million on early recovery assistance in Gaza. We have earmarked the remaining £20 million for Gillian Merron: The information for alcohol-related reconstruction when access restrictions are eased and it attendances at accident and emergency departments is is possible for projects to start. not collected centrally. Information on alcohol-related Since the political situation in Gaza remains fluid, we hospital admissions is collected centrally. Tables which cannot give exact figures on how much will be spent this show the number of alcohol-related hospital admissions year. However, we aim to maintain flexibility so that we via accident and emergency departments has been placed can respond at short notice if possible. The amount of in the Library. These relate to numbers of admissions further support to the PA for this financial year, which rather than individuals. would also benefit Gaza, is still to be decided. A small proportion of alcohol-related hospital admissions relate to chronic conditions which, based on research Remittances evidence, are attributed to alcohol consumption within the Government’s lower risk guidelines for regular consumption. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department It should be noted that information on alcohol-related is taking to help reduce the cost of foreign nationals hospital admissions is only available for the years 2002-03 sending home remittances; and if he will make a to 2007-08 and that because of patient confidentiality statement. [285396] data for under 18s have not been broken down into the age groups requested. Additionally, primary care trust boundaries changed between 2005-06 and 2006-07, so Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International separate tables have been provided for the two periods. Development’s (DFID) White Paper published on 6 July 2009 and available in the Library of the House and on the DFID website Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse www.dfid.gov.uk outlines our new commitments on remittances. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many minors received treatment for DFID will work with the World Bank co-ordinated alcohol addiction in each primary care trust area Global Remittances Working Group, set up by the G8 within the ceremonial county of Hampshire in each of this year. We also have a number of country partnerships the last five years; and what estimate his Department focused on reducing costs and developing new products has made of the average cost per patient of treatment for remittances. for alcohol addiction in each such year. [286279]

Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid Gillian Merron: Information about the number of minors receiving treatment for alcohol addiction is not collected centrally. Therefore, the Department is unable Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for to estimate the average cost per patient of treatment for International Development what steps his Department alcohol addiction. plans to take to monitor whether aid recently allocated by his Department to Zimbabwe reaches its intended recipients. [285369] Carers

Mr. Thomas: All UK bilateral assistance to Zimbabwe Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State is provided through trusted partners, mainly the United for Health pursuant to the contribution of the Minister Nations and non-governmental organisations who have of State, Department of Health on 11 June 2009, robust monitoring and financial accounting systems to Official Report, column 976, on carers, what the basis is ensure aid reaches its intended recipients. In addition, of his Department’s estimate of the number of carers we review all our contributions regularly to ensure our in England. [285939] funds meet the objectives for which they were intended. This is done through quarterly reporting and annual Phil Hope: The main source of information that the reviews in addition to field visits. Department uses for the number of carers is the 2001 We do not pass funds directly to the Government of Census. Zimbabwe or through the government financial Nomis, a web-based database, run by the university management system, nor do we make payments to of Durham on behalf of the Office for National Statistics, partners through the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe. shows that there were 4.85 million carers in England. 515W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 516W

We recognise the importance of having up-to-date wait longer. The 18 weeks commitment covers pathways information on carers. That is why we have recommended that involve or might involve consultant-led care, including to Parliament that a question on carers is included in orthodontics, which is now recorded under the oral the 2011 Census. This will provide a 10-year comparison surgery speciality. with 2001 for the number of carers in each local area Latest data show that since January 2009, the national and the number of hours of care they provide. health service has been delivering the operating standards for 18 weeks to ensure that no one should wait more Dental Services: Waiting Lists than 18 weeks from the time they are referred to the start of their consultant-led treatment, unless it is clinically Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State appropriate to do so or they choose to wait longer. for Health what the average waiting time for (a) initial Departmental Contracts orthodontic assessment and (b) subsequent orthodontic treatment was in the North East region in Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if each of the last five years. [286247] he will make an assessment of the standard of service provided to his Department and its agencies by Ann Keen: The following tables show the median contractors appointed by reverse auction. [285219] in-patient waiting time for elective admission in weeks for oral surgery, orthodontics between the time periods Phil Hope: The Department and its two executive shown (table 1) and the median out-patient waiting agencies, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory time for a first out-patient appointment in weeks for the Agency and NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency, do time periods shown (table 2). not use reverse auctions as part of procurements within their own budgets. Table 1: In-patient commissioner hospital-based waiting list statistics: specialties—oral surgery, orthodontics Departmental Data Protection Weeks Month ending Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for March March March March March September Health what databases which will be managed by his Area Specialty 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2007 Department or one of its agencies and which will contain North Oral 8.4 8.4 6.6 6.6 6.5 7.1 personal information are (a) under construction and East surgery (b) expected to go live in each of the next five years; North Orthodontics8.0 8.2 n/a n/a n/a n/a and if he will make a statement. [286504] East n/a = No orthodontic waiters were declared for the time periods specified. Phil Hope: Planned application developments which Notes: will contain personal information on members of the 1. Figures are shown for organisations that existed at the time. 2. In-patient waiting times are measured from decision to admit by the consultant public or departmental staff are summarised in the to admission to hospital. following table. Year relates to expected year of 3. The last time this data was collected was for period ending September 2007. implementation. 4. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. Any personal data stored on the Department’s databases 5. In particular, specialties with low numbers waiting are prone to fluctuations is subject to the Data Protection Act and to our own, in the median. This should be taken into account when interpreting the data. Source: internal data protection policy. Department of Health Waiting List Collections QF01 and MMRCOM. Following the publication of the cross government data handling review in June 2008, new projects and Table 2: Median out-patient waiting time for first out-patient appointment not programmes that hold significant amounts of personal seen, 2005-07 (commissioner-based), out-patient commissioner hospital-based waiting list statistics: specialties—oral surgery, orthodontics data are obliged to conduct privacy impact assessments. Weeks Year Database Description Month ending March March March September 2009-10 Hospitality Staff hospitality Area Specialty 2005 2006 2007 2007 Reporting details and declarations of North Oral 4.5 4.7 4.1 3.8 interest East surgery 2009-10 Public Bodies Data on the North Orthodontics 5.4 5.6 4.4 4.5 membership of all East the Department’s n/a = No orthodontic waiters were declared for the time periods specified or sponsored public there were very low numbers. bodies Notes: 2009-10 Third Sector Grant applications 1. Figures are shown for organisations that existed at the time. Funding and award 2. Out-patient waiting times are measured from referral by the general practitioner monitoring process (GP) to first out-patient appointment to the consultant. 2009-10 The National Pandemic flu 3. From 2004-05 all timebands for out-patients not seen were first collected so Pandemic Flu information only average waiting first out-patient times can be made from this point in time. Service management system 4. The last time this data was collected was for period ending September 2007. 5. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient 2011-12 Electronic Details of medical level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. In Exchange of treatment received particular, specialties with low numbers waiting are prone to fluctuations in the Social Security while abroad and median. This should be taken into account when interpreting the data. Information evidence of Source: (EESSI) entitlement. System Department of Health Waiting List Collections QM08R and MMRCOM. to be jointly managed with From 1 January 2009, no one should wait more than Department for 18 weeks from the time they are referred by their GP or Work and Pensions and Customs and dentist to start of their consultant-led treatment unless Revenue it is clinically appropriate to do so or they choose to 517W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 518W

and accurate list of all maintained databases would Year Database Description require analysis at disproportionate cost. The most n/k e-Directory Contact details for significant are listed in the following table. departmental staff and external Databases managed by the Department of Health not holding personal contacts. Under information consideration, but Database Information on hold; likely to be implemented Business Management System—(BMS) Departmental financial information sometime within the Financial next five years FIMS NHS financial information NHS Choices n/k Contact Information on Refcosts NHS financial information management service providers system who support UNIFY NHS statistical data the NHS Choices VAXX Public Health vaccines data programme. Timing uncertain but likely to be in the next All databases maintained by the Department are two years managed in compliance with the Data Protection Act. Medicines and MHRA are not developing, and have no plans to develop, The categories of data held, and the purposes for which Healthcare any databases containing personal information in the next they are used, are detailed in the Department’s entry in products five years Regulatory the Information Commissioner’s Data Protection Register. Agency This can be viewed at: (MHRA) www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/DoSearch.asp?reg=4295533 NHS PASA are not developing, and have no plans to develop, Purchasing and any databases containing personal information in the next The following databases contain personal information. Supply Agency five years Where the title of the database does not on its own (PASA) explain its content, a brief note of explanation has been NHS There are a number of programmes which are either in added. Connecting for the planning or initiation phase. The datasets for these Health programmes will be developed as a consequence of the Databases managed by the Department of Health holding personal information detailed analysis within each specific programme and it is, Database Information therefore, not possible to provide the requested detail at this stage. NHS Connecting for Health operate a Abortion Notifications Forms required by the Abortion Act comprehensive Information Governance programme with 1967 which all programmes must comply. The specific detail of future datasets will be submitted to the Information Agenda for Change Prison Job evaluation data Standards Board for review and evaluation at the Service Database appropriate time within each programme Briefing material (LINUS) The Department’s policy lines Business Management System The Department’s Human Resources (BMS)—HR data Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Business Management System The Department’s procurement data Health how many (a) attempts and (b) successful (BMS)—Procurement attempts were made to gain unauthorised access to each Certificate of Free Sales Medical technology company name and (i) database and (ii) ICT system run by his Department address details in each of the last five years; and if he will make a Clinical Excellence Database Medical consultants employed by the NHS in England and Wales, and NHS statement. [286545] employers Contact Correspondence management system Phil Hope: We are aware of only one attempt to gain including ministerial correspondence, unauthorised access to departmental databases or parliamentary questions, and freedom of information requests information and communication (ICT) systems in each Distribution of Business Departmental Business Pages of the last five years. A web page defacement resulted in Dignity Champion Database Dignity in Care a website page being altered without permission. There Directors of Estates and — was no data loss, nor were any sensitive files compromised. Facilities Unauthorised access Directory (Internal) The Department’s staff lists Attempts Successful attempts Electronic Staff Record NHS employees ICT ICT External Directory Details of external contact Databases Systems Databases Systems Extra Care Housing Fund Bid and award information for Extra Care Housing Scheme grants 2004-05 0 0 0 0 Healthy Start Issuing Unit Individuals who may receive financial 2005-06 0 0 0 0 Database assistance 2006-07 0 1 0 1 Healthy Start Reimbursement Retailer register for the Healthy Start 2007-08 0 0 0 0 Unit Scheme 2008-09 0 0 0 0 Honours Material Personal and staffing information MEDBEN Medical benefits overseas health claims Mental Health Service Users Individual casework data under mental Departmental Databases Personal Data health legislation Modernising Medical Careers Contacts from Doctors applying for Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health speciality training posts in the NHS National Child Measurement Primary school children weight what information databases his Department (a) Programme assessment data maintains and (b) uses which do not contain personal National Research Register Research projects funded by or of information. [284400] interest to the NHS (archived from July 2009) Phil Hope: The Department maintains over 600 internal National Stakeholder Forum — Membership and Contacts databases. Many of these are for local use and contain a Nursery Milk Redemption Unit Day care provider details limited amount of personal data. To provide an up-to-date 519W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 520W

Databases managed by the Department of Health holding personal information (2) how many persons his Department’s non- Database Information departmental public bodies (a) employed directly and Occupational Health Smart Card Pre-employment checks of doctors (b) engaged as external contractors to work on press System and public relations matters in each of the last five Payroll The Department’s staff payroll years; and at what cost in each such year. [285466] Personal Medical Services (PMS) — Pilots Central Return Phil Hope: The available information is shown in the POPPI and PANSI Registered POPPI (Projecting Older People following tables. Users Database Population Information), PANSI (Projecting Adult Needs and Servicing Number of press officers employed by the Department’s Media Centre, 2003-04 Information) to 2007-08 Prison Probation Ombudsman — Number of staff (PPO) Death in Custody Reports Private Contact Data for Mental — 2007-08 28 Health Stakeholders 2006-07 26 PROTOBS Private Office and Top of the Office 2005-06 30 Business System 2004-05 30 Injury Cost Recovery (ICR) Recovery of insurance payments in 2003-04 26 Schemes respect of treatment to accident victims provided by the NHS Costs for the Department’s Media Centre Staff, 2003-04 to 2007-08 Security Vetting Database Staff clearance details Cost (£ million) SHA Very Senior Managers Data about managers in the NHS and (VSM) Salaries and Performance arm’s length bodies 2007 - 08 1.369 Markings 2006 - 07 1.765 2005 - 06 1.772 2004 - 05 1.471 Departmental Electronic Equipment 2003 - 04 1.284 Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures exclude social security and pension costs. We Health how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning are unable to give figures for 2008-09 as they have not devices and (c) fax machines, excluding multi-function yet been audited. devices, there are in his Department; how many there were in each of the last three years; and if he will make These figures only relate to activity by the a statement. [286172] Communications directorate and not to other areas of the Department as this would incur disproportionate Phil Hope: A managed print service was introduced cost. in 2007, which included the deployment of multi-functional It is not possible to include figures for non departmental devices, many of which have scanning and fax capabilities public bodies as these figures are not held centrally. and which replaced most of our photocopiers. Prior to the introduction of this service, the Department had 93 photocopiers. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish the rules on movements of his The Department also has local reprographic units on Department’s staff to commercial companies under the its London estate, which are used for bulk copying. business appointments procedures. [286636] These local reprographic units have a total of nine photocopiers for this purpose. Phil Hope: Rules on civil servants taking up outside Historical information regarding the numbers of scanners business appointments are published in the Civil Service and fax machines is not held. As at July 2009, there are Management Code (section 4.3) which can be found at: 179 faxes and 98 scanners on the estate. www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/work/codes/csmc/index.aspx Since the managed print service has been introduced no new scanners and four fax machines have been Section 4.3 Annex A contains the full guidance on purchased in the last three years. accepting outside business appointments. The Department complies fully with the requirements of the Civil Service Management Code in ensuring adherence to the business Departmental Hospitality appointments procedure. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for These rules are also referred to in the Directory of Health whether his Department maintains a record of Civil Service guidance, available at: gifts and hospitality declared by its staff. [286674] www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/civil_service/ civil_service_guidance.aspx Phil Hope: All staff in the Department are bound by Standard employment contracts for all senior civil the Civil Service Management Code to declare gifts and servants refer to the rules on outside business appointments. hospitality received. A record of these declarations are maintained on the Department’s register of interests. Departmental Policy Departmental Manpower Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health with which third party organisations (a) he Health (1) how many persons his Department (a) and his predecessors, (b) other Ministers in his employed directly and (b) engaged as external contractors Department and (c) senior officials in his Department to work on press and public relations matters in each of have met in the last 12 months to discuss matters the last five years; and at what cost in each such year; relevant to the formulation of his Department’s [285465] policies. [285938] 521W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 522W

Phil Hope: Ministers and officials meet a wide range Ann Keen: 202 services applied for derogation. 200 of organisations throughout the year and the information were recommended for derogation as they were unlikely requested could be obtained only at disproportionate to be able to provide working arrangements for junior cost. doctors of the complaint with the requirements of the directive in time to meet the deadline of 1 August and Dietary Supplements: EC Law would require further support to become compliant. Two services were not recommended because they were outside of the scope of directive as they did not refer to Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for junior doctors in training posts. Health if he will instruct the Food Standards Agency to issue briefing material to United Kingdom Members All services are listed within the Statutory Instrument, of the European Parliament on progress in establishing which was laid before Parliament and is in the public maximum permitted levels for nutrients in food domain. supplements under the provisions of Article 5 of the Drinking Water: Fluoride Food Supplements Directive; and if he will make a statement. [285676] Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made on the fluoridation Gillian Merron: No specific levels for vitamins and of water supplies in (a) England and (b) West Derbyshire. minerals in food supplements have yet been proposed [286409] by the European Commission or discussed in Commission- led working group meetings with member states. Ann Keen: We consider that fluoridation of water is At this stage there are no plans for the Food Standards capable of reducing inequalities in oral health, but Agency to provide briefing material to United Kingdom strategic health authorities (SHAs) are responsible for Members of the European Parliament on progress in decisions on proposals for new schemes. The SHAs establishing maximum permitted levels for nutrients in have to take account of assessments of oral health food supplements under the provisions of Article 5 of needs conducted by their primary care trusts (PCTs), the Food Supplements Directive. the configuration of the water distribution system and the outcome of local, public consultations. We understand Doctors: Working Hours that PCTs across the East Midlands, including Derbyshire County PCT, are conducting a feasibility study to assess the costs, benefits and technical options of fluoridation. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to his announcement of 25 June 2009 on Drugs the European Working Time Directive, what (a) the 200 rotas recommended for a derogation from the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Directive for doctors in training and (b) the two rotas what estimate he has made of the cost to the NHS of not recommended for such a derogation are; and what obtaining out of stock medicines in the latest period the reasons for the decision were in each case. [286600] for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [286532] Ann Keen: All rotas recommended for derogation are listed in the Statutory Instrument that was laid before Mr. Mike O’Brien: While the Department has not Parliament. The services were recommended for derogation, specifically made an estimate of the costs to the national as they were unlikely to be able to provide working health service of obtaining out of stock medicines, the arrangements for junior doctors of the complaint with Department is in discussions with the Pharmaceutical the requirements of the directive in time to meet the Services Negotiating Committee regarding the difficulties deadline of 1 August and would require further support pharmacies are facing in obtaining some medicines. to become compliant. Drugs: Misuse The two rotas not recommended for derogation were outside of the scope of directive as they did not refer to Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health junior doctors in training posts. how many and what percentage of patients treated by the NHS for drug addiction in (a) the East of England Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and (b) Suffolk were no longer addicted at the end of with reference to his announcement of 25 June 2009 on their treatment in each of the last three years. [286274] the European Working Time Directive, which 62 trusts made applications for derogations from the Directive Gillian Merron: The number and percentage of people for doctors in training; what reasons were given in each treated by the national health service for drug addition application; and whether or not a derogation was in the East of England and Suffolk is shown in the granted in each case. [286601] following table.

2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Eastern region

Completed treatment 793 19 856 21 1,620 32 Total discharged 4,232 100 4,052 100 5,047 100 523W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 524W

2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Suffolk Completed treatment 98 19 81 19 138 29 Total discharged 522 100 424 100 481 100 Notes: The data covers adults-only as young people are not considered to be drug-dependent; adults are defined as over 18s; the data is for all those who completed treatment and are therefore assessed as being no longer dependent on drugs; and the data covers all specialist drug treatment, not just NHS. Source: National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse.

Drugs: Risk Assessment Mr. Mike O’Brien: No decisions have yet been made on whether any medicines and, if so, which should be Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for excluded from the arrangements for generic substitution. Health whether (a) his Department and (b) the National Patient Safety Agency has undertaken a risk assessment of proposals for generic drug substitution. Food: Chemical Analysis [286848] Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Mike O’Brien: No such formal assessment has Health what recent discussions he has had with local been undertaken. authorities on trends in their budgetary provision for Patient safety will be paramount in taking forward the chemical analysis of food over the last five years. the work on generic substitution. It has long been the [285696] Department’s policy to encourage generic prescribing where possible, for reasons of good professional practice Gillian Merron: My right hon. Friend the Secretary and because of the opportunities for more effective use of State has not held such discussions with local authorities. of national health service resources. However, we have The Food Standard Agency (FSA), however, as the always recognised that there are circumstances in which central competent authority in the United Kingdom for it may be clinically appropriate to prescribe a particular controls on feed and food (safety and standards) uses brand of drug even where a generic is available if the statutory powers to monitor and audit local authority prescriber considers it essential for the patient to receive performance which include reporting on sampling activities that specific product. This position will need to be by local authorities. Local authorities are measured maintained under any new specific proposals made as against responsibilities set out in the Statutory Food part of the work on generic substitution. Law Code of Practice (separate parallel codes of practice exist for each of the four UK countries). Local authority monitoring and audit information is available from Eating Disorders: Finance 2000, and can be found at: www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/auditandmonitoring/ mondatabyyear/ Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much the NHS spent on treating eating disorders in the period 2004 to 2008; and if he will Food: Safety make a statement. [286714] Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Phil Hope: This information is not held centrally. Health if he will establish a system of standard food Primary care trusts are responsible for providing local sampling rates in consultation with food authorities. health services and together with their strategic health authorities are responsible for deciding which services [285211] to plan, commission and develop to meet the health Gillian Merron: The Food Standard Agency (FSA) as needs of their local communities. the Central Competent Authority in the United Kingdom Since 2001-02, real terms investment in adult mental for controls on feed and food (safety and standards), health services increased by 44 per cent., or £1.7 billion, has no plans to set sampling rates for local authorities. putting in place the services and staff needed to transform Local authority food sampling responsibilities are set mental health services. The national health service spent out in the statutory Food Law Code of Practice (Separate £5.53 billion on these services in 2007-08 compared to parallel Codes of Practice exist for each of the four UK £3.844 billion in 2001-02. countries). Local authorities are required to put together a sampling programme which details their intended food sampling priorities, taking into account the number, Epilepsy: Medical Treatments type and risk rating of premises in their area and any national or local consumer issues that may influence Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for sampling rates. Also important are any responsibilities Health pursuant to the answer of 8 July 2009, Official under the originating or home authority principle. Report, columns 886-7W, on epilepsy: medical Local authorities may be audited against the Code of treatments, if he will consider the merits of making Practice requirements as part of the FSA’s audit scheme specific exclusions to his policy of generic substitution. (as part of the Framework Agreement on Local Authority [286769] Food Law Enforcement). 525W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 526W

Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Resolution of 2 April 2009 on health concerns associated Health if he will make an evaluation of the cost effectiveness with electromagnetic fields; and if he will make a statement; of food screening laboratories. [285212] [285239] (4) what steps he is taking to (a) identify and (b) Gillian Merron: The Food Standard Agency has not protect against the effects of mobile telecommunications carried out an evaluation of the cost effectiveness of radiation emissions those categories of people who have food screening laboratories. However, the cost effectiveness particular susceptibilities to them. [285241] of the analytical provision for local authorities is assured as a result of the current requirement for local authorities to appoint a public analyst through competitive tender. Gillian Merron: Between 1 June 2009 and 8 July 2009 This allows local authorities to choose to send samples the Department received one letter and one e-mail, to laboratories that are competitive in terms of price both from the same member of the public, that mention and quality of service. guidelines for exposure to electromagnetic radiation. In 2004 the National Radiation Protection Board Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for (NRPB) recommended adoption of the International Health what guidance he has given to local authorities Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection on levels of their budgets for chemical analysis of food. (ICNIRP) exposure guidelines for occupational and [285245] public exposure to electromagnetic fields between zero and 300 gigahertz (GHz). The NRPB’s recommendations Gillian Merron: Local authority food sampling can be found in the document “Advice on Limiting responsibilities are set out in the Food Law Code of Exposure to Electromagnetic Fields (0-300 GHz)” Practice (separate parallel Codes of Practice exist for Documents of the NRPB volume 15 number 2, on the each of the four United Kingdom countries). Local Health Protection Agency (HPA) website at: authorities are required to put together a sampling programme which details their intended food sampling www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ priorities, taking into account the number, type and risk HPAweb_C/1195733817602?p=1219908766891 rating of premises in their area and any national or The NRPB’s scientific review underpinning their local consumer issues that may influence sampling rates. recommendations “Review of the Scientific Evidence Also important are any responsibilities under the originating for Limiting Exposure to Electromagnetic Fields (0-300 or home authority principle. GHz)” Documents of the NRPB volume 15 number 3 is Local authorities must ensure the resources necessary on the HPA website at: to carry out the food sampling programme are made www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ available. HPAweb_C/1195733787839?p=1219908766891 General Practitioners: Finance The Government response to the Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones (Stewart) report was reviewed Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for in the report “Mobile Phones and Health 2004: Report Health what estimate has been made of the likely effect by the Board of NRPB” Documents of the NRPB on the number of GP surgeries upgraded to training volume 15 number 5 which is on the Health Protection practices of the £100 million in capital funding brought Agency (HPA) website at: forward from 2010-11 to 2009-10 and 2008-09; and www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ how much of the funding has been spent in each month HPAweb_C/1195733821582?p=1219908766891 since it was announced. [286650] A departmental leaflet on mobile phones and health, published following the Stewart report recommendation Mr. Mike O’Brien: Our initial indications are that for further public information, includes advice concerning over 700 general practitioner practices have made bids children’s use of mobile phones and can be seen on the for funding to upgrade their practices. It is too early in Department’s web site at: the programme to indicate the amount of money spent. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Health Hazards: Mobile Phones PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4123979 A copy has been placed in the Library. Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State In response to the Stewart report, the Government for Health (1) what recent representations he has have supported research on exposure to radio waves in received on (a) the adequacy of recommended safe the independently managed Mobile Telecommunications levels of exposure to electromagnetic radiation and (b) and Health Research Programme (MTHR). A copy of the adequacy of guidelines for protection from such the MTHR report of 2007 has already been placed in radiation established by the International Commission the Library. Information on a further phase of research on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection; [285235] is available on the MTHR website at: (2) what steps the Government has taken to implement the recommendations of the Independent Expert Group www.mthr.org.uk/research_projects/MTHR2_projects.htm on Mobile Phones; and what measures are in place to The HPA report on electrical sensitivity “HPA-RPD- protect children under the age of 12 years from exposure 010—Definition, Epidemiology and Management of to potentially harmful radiation from mobile telephones; Electrical Sensitivity. Report for the Radiation Protection [285236] Division of the Health Protection Agency” cab be found (3) what discussions he has had in the Council of on the HPA website at: Ministers on the recommendations concerning EU www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ member states contained in the European Parliament’s HPAweb_C/1195733810369?p==1197637096018 527W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 528W

United Kingdom Health Ministers have not had Gillian Merron: The following table shows the amounts any discussions in the Council of Ministers on the actually claimed to date by the United Kingdom against recommendations concerning European Union member other European economic area (EEA) member states states contained in the European Parliament’s Resolution and the actual amounts paid to date against those of 2 April 2009 on health concerns associated with claims for each of the last five calendar claim years. electromagnetic fields. The amounts are combined claims for temporary visitors (via European Health Insurance Cards (EHIC), or form E111 prior to its replacement in 2005 by the EHIC), posted workers (via form E106) and referrals Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements for treatment in other EEA countries (via form E112). Due to the nature of the claims system between member Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for states, it is not possible to disaggregate these data Health how much money was (a) claimed and (b) consistently for all member states by either type of recovered from each partner nation for medical claims claim or type of treatment. The figures in the tables under the provisions of (i) form E111 and (ii) the reflect the fact that EEA medical costs are typically European Health Insurance Card in each of the last submitted by member states (including the UK) one to five years. [285456] three, and sometimes more, years in arrears.

EEA health care cost claims: Claims under Article 93 of Regulation (EC) 1408/71: UK claims against member states 20041 2005 2006 2007 2008

Austria Initial claims total 101,281 14,617 — 14,673 50,750 Total paid to date 101,281 14,617 — 14,673 14,929

Belgium Initial claims total 1,295,401 1,394,748 1,369,548 6,277 36,075 Total paid to date 1,295,401 1,394,748 1,369,548 6,277 32,976 Bulgaria3 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Cyprus2 Initial claims total — — — 382 4,515 Totalpaidtodate — — — 0 0

Czech Republic2 Initial claims total — — — — 2,260 Total paid to date — — — — 2,260

Denmark4 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Estonia2,6 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Finland7 Initial claims total — — — 148 1,873 Total paid to date — — — 148 0

France Initial claims total 2,164,442 2,164,442 2,223,048 2,223,048 — Total paid to date 2,164,442 2,164,442 2,223,048 2,223,048 —

Germany Initial claims total 18,431 15,265 74 12,633 53,611 Total paid to date 0 15,265 74 12,633 45,774

Greece Initial claims total 398,318 581,601 36,410 108,948 594,653 Total paid to date 274,413 489,230 0 0 0

Hungary2,7 Initial claims total — — — 10,658 8,219 Total paid to date — — — 10,658 8,219

Iceland Initial claims total — — — — 24,942 Total paid to date — — — — 24,942

Ireland8 Initial claims total 10,504,622 11,365,387 10,023,000 12,174,837 12,488,558 Total paid to date 8,633,491 9,339,096 8,092,946 9,407,794 10,370,960 529W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 530W

EEA health care cost claims: Claims under Article 93 of Regulation (EC) 1408/71: UK claims against member states 20041 2005 2006 2007 2008

Italy Initial claims total 1,804,107 912,920 131,826 147,251 708,649 Total paid to date 1,443,286 730,336 105,461 117,801 566,919

Latvia2 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Liechtenstein Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Lithuania2 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Luxembourg5 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Malta2,7 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Netherlands Initial claims total 5,414 — — 6,691 41,428 Totalpaidtodate 0 — — 0 0

Norway7 Initial claims total — 968 — — — Totalpaidtodate — 0———

Poland2 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Portugal Initial claims total 22,773 44,614 — 12,887 172,331 Total paid to date 9,097 20,251 — 3,481 0

Romania3 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Slovakia2 Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Slovenia2 Initial claims total 434 — — — 5,991 Total paid to date 434 — — — 5,991

Spain Initial claims total 1,762,209 2,234,214 2,489,817 65,005 85,501 Total paid to date 1,588,438 2,017,951 2,237,251 0 74,829

Sweden Initial claims total 1,334 17,710 — — 18,160 Total paid to date 1,334 17,710 — — 18,160

Switzerland Initial claims total — ———— Totalpaidtodate —————

Initial claims (all countries) 18,078,766 18,746,486 16,273,723 14,783,438 14,297,517 Total paid to date (all countries) 15,511,616 16,203,647 14,028,328 11,796,512 11,165,960 1 Under European Union regulations claims are made on a calendar year basis. Totals for each calendar year are based on actual claims submitted to date. 2 Acceded to the European Union in 2004 3 Acceded to the European Union in 2007 4 Total waiver. 5 Previous total waiver, expired on 30 June 2008. 6 Waiver, excepting Article 22.1c (patient referral) and Article 55.1c (industrial injury) claims. 7 Waiver, excepting Article 22.1c (patient referral) claims 8 Totals for Ireland for 2008 and previous years are estimated and subject to negotiations. 531W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 532W

Mr. Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Non-admitted pathways what assessment he has made of the net effect on the Of which: public purse of the termination of the reciprocal health Total number of agreement with the Isle of Man in the 12 months Treatment non-admitted Percentage following termination; and if he will make a statement. function pathways >26 weeks >26 weeks [285960] 2008-09 Cardiothoracic 388 4 1 surgery Gillian Merron: The Department has not yet given 2008-09 Cardiology 4,412 97 2 formal notice on the bilateral agreement between the Notes: 1. RTT waiting times figures are collected separately for patients who are United Kingdom and the Isle of Man but it has informed admitted to hospital for treatment and for those for whom a decision not to the Isle of Man of the intention to do so. Because of a admit is made. perceived imbalance in the numbers of tourists being 2. Data on non-admitted patients has only been collected since August 2007, so the only full year for which figures are available is 2008-09. treated by both parties, under the bilateral agreement Source: the UK has provided the Isle of Man with an annual Department of Health Monthly Referral to Treatment Statistics allocation, to fund clinical referrals to the UK, of around £2.5 million in recent years. The UK will no longer provide this, once the agreement is terminated. Health Visitors: Crimes of Violence Following the end of the agreement, UK residents will require travel insurance when visiting the Isle of Man, Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health likewise Isle of Man residents visiting here. how many physical assaults on health visitors were recorded in each of the last five years. [287375]

Health Services: Waiting Lists Ann Keen: The information is not available centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Since 2004-05, the NHS Security Management Service how many patients diagnosed with (a) cancer and (b) has collected information on the number of physical heart disease waited for treatment for over six months assaults reported against national health service staff in in Tamworth constituency in each of the last five years. England. Tables showing the number of assaults reported [286339] by each health body have already been placed in the Library. Ann Keen: The information is not available in the format requested. Health: Research Cancer patients from the Tamworth constituency area would receive treatment from the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust or Burton Hospitals NHS Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Foundation Trust. For quarter four 2008-09 for Mid how much his Department spent in supporting Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, of the 235 cancer scientific and medical research undertaken by charities patients treated, 233 or 99.1 per cent. of them began in the last 12 months. [285195] their first definitive treatment within 31 days of receiving their diagnosis and agreeing a care plan. For quarter Gillian Merron: The Department’s National Institute four 2008-09 for Burton Hospitals NHS Foundation for Health Research Clinical Research Network (CRN) Trust, of the 180 cancer patients treated, 179 or 99.4 per provides the health service infrastructure to support cent. of them began their first definitive treatment clinical trials and other studies funded by both commercial within 31 days of receiving their diagnosis and agreeing and non-commercial organisations. All eligible studies a care plan. funded by research charities are automatically entitled to CRN support. The network is currently supporting Tamworth constituency is within the South Staffordshire 850 such studies. They comprise some 38 per cent. of primary care trust (PCT) area. Information on the the total CRN portfolio. number and percentage of admitted and non-admitted patients with heart disease for 2008-09 is shown in the The cost of the CRN in 2008-09 was £158 million. It following tables. is not possible separately to identify what part of that expenditure was attributable to the support given to Referral to treatment (RTT) waiting time figures for the number and percentage of patients who are admitted and not admitted to hospital for the treatment of research charity funded studies. heart disease at South Staffordshire PCT Admitted pathways Of which: Heart Diseases: Death Total number of Treatment admitted Percentage function pathways >26 weeks >26 weeks Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007-08 Cardiothoracic 231 20 9 what the mortality rate for heart disease in Tamworth surgery constituency was in each of the last five years. [286337] 2007-08 Cardiology 799 91 11 Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. 2008-09 Cardiothoracic 400 13 3 The information requested falls within the responsibility surgery of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority 2008-09 Cardiology 1,185 31 3 to reply. 533W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 534W

Letter from Karen Dunnell, July 2009: The table attached provides the age-standardised mortality As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your rate, where ischaemic heart disease was the underlying cause of recent question asking what the mortality rate for heart disease in death, for Tamworth parliamentary constituency, from 2003 to Tamworth constituency was in each of the last five years. (286337) 2007 (the latest year available).

Table 1. Age-standardised mortality rates per 100,000 population,1,2 where ischaemic heart disease was the underlying cause of death,3 Tamworth parliamentary constituency,4 2003-075 Rate per 100,000 population Rate 95 per cent. confidence interval

2003 134 (113-155) 2004 120 (100-139) 2005 95 (78-112) 2006 106 (88-124) 2007 107 (89-124) 1 Age-standardised mortality rates per 100,000 population, standardised to the European Standard Population. Age-standardised rates are used to allow comparison between populations which may contain different proportions of people of different ages. 2 Confidence intervals are a measure of the statistical precision of an estimate and show the range of uncertainty around the estimated figure. Calculations based on small numbers of events are often subject to random fluctuations. As a general rule, if the confidence interval around one figure overlaps with the interval around another, we cannot say with certainty that there is more than a chance difference between the two figures. 3 Cause of death for ischaemic heart disease was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes 120-125. 4 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 5 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year.

Hospital Beds hospital in (i) 1997, (ii) 2002 and (iii) the latest period for which figures are available. [286185] Phil Hope: The average daily number of available and Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health occupied beds by sector, national health service how many bed spaces on average there were at (a) organisations in England, 1997-98, 2002-03, 2007-08, is Addenbrooke’s, (b) West Suffolk and (c) Ipswich shown in the following table.

1997-98 2002-03 2007-08 Total Total Total Total Total Total (Available) (Occupied) (Available) (Occupied) (Available) (Occupied)

Addenbrookes NHS Trust Cambridge 1,302 1,110 1,026 898 1,079 927 University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust (formerly known as Addenbrookes) Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 761 623 767 668 682 542 West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 713 496 638 577 491 393 Source: Department of Health form KH03

Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State Primary Chronic for Health how many hospital bed days there were for care trust of obstructive (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) all responsibility Primary Care Trust Of Respiratory pulmonary respiratory diseases in (i) England and (ii) each code Responsibility Description diseases disease1 primary care trust area in the latest period for which 5AT Hillingdon PCT 13,415 2,424 figures are available. [286250] 5C1 Enfield PCT 14,407 2,658 5C2 Barking and Dagenham PCT 13,605 3,602 Ann Keen: The hospital bed days data for 2007-08 for 5C3 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 13,283 2,583 chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and all respiratory 5C4 Tower Hamlets PCT 19,863 5,021 disease in England and each primary care trust (PCT) 5C5 Newham PCT 17,209 3,783 are given in the following table. 5C9 Haringey Teaching PCT 14,543 2,095 5CC Blackburn with Darwen PCT 8,775 2,302 Primary Chronic 5CN Herefordshire PCT 13,256 2,094 care trust of obstructive responsibility Primary Care Trust Of Respiratory pulmonary 5CQ Milton Keynes PCT 13,391 2,680 code Responsibility Description diseases disease1 5D7 Newcastle PCT 27,936 6,886

Total (England) 3,863,569 794,363 5D8 North Tyneside PCT 24,403 5,367 5D9 Hartlepool PCT 8,483 2,177 5E1 North Tees Teaching PCT 15,866 3,900 59898 Not Applicable 18,317 2,599 5EF North Lincolnshire PCT 14,068 3,552 59999 Unknown 846 152 5EM Nottingham City PCT 22,086 4,620 5A3 South Gloucestershire PCT 15,684 2,921 5ET Bassetlaw PCT 7,104 1,920 5A4 Havering PCT 16,619 3,542 5A5 Kingston PCT 12,189 2,325 5F1 Plymouth Teaching PCT 16,303 3,054 5A7 Bromley PCT 21,462 3,791 5F5 Salford PCT 25,151 5,478 5A8 Greenwich Teaching PCT 15,953 4,079 5F7 Stockport PCT 24,645 5,286 5A9 Barnet PCT 15,252 2,149 5FE Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 14,423 2,651 535W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 536W

Primary Chronic Primary Chronic care trust of obstructive care trust of obstructive responsibility Primary Care Trust Of Respiratory pulmonary responsibility Primary Care Trust Of Respiratory pulmonary code Responsibility Description diseases disease1 code Responsibility Description diseases disease1

5FL Bath and North East Somerset 13,889 2,317 5NG Central Lancashire PCT 37,239 7,243 PCT 5NH East Lancashire Teaching PCT 24,085 6,602 5GC Luton PCT 12,666 2,881 5NJ Sefton PCT 26,064 7,202 5H1 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 12,624 2,357 5NK Wirral PCT 29,083 6,167 5H8 Rotherham PCT 22,540 5,310 5NL Liverpool PCT 58,955 15,384 5HG Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 26,903 5,739 5NM Halton and St. Helens PCT 30,452 8,097 5HP Blackpool PCT 15,124 4,136 5NN Western Cheshire PCT 19,924 3,664 5HQ Bolton PCT 24,164 5,309 5NP Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT 34,896 7,328 5HX Ealing PCT 22,372 3,741 5NQ Heywood, Middleton and 16,889 3,391 5HY Hounslow PCT 16,341 2,980 Rochdale PCT 5J2 Warrington PCT 14,023 3,304 5NR Trafford PCT 18,155 3,695 5J4 Knowsley PCT 20,321 5,844 5NT Manchester PCT 50,077 10,944 5J5 Oldham PCT 18,168 4,014 5NV North Yorkshire and York PCT 50,917 10,175 5J6 Calderdale PCT 19,300 4,921 5NW East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 25,403 5,843 5J9 Darlington PCT 7,755 1,664 5NX Hull Teaching PCT 28,033 7,902 5JE Barnsley PCT 25,035 7,872 5NY Bradford and Airedale Teaching 34,182 6,305 5JX Bury PCT 11,148 1,959 PCT 5K3 Swindon PCT 12,103 2,576 5P1 South East Essex PCT 21,131 6,260 5K5 Brent Teaching PCT 14,731 2,112 5P2 Bedfordshire PCT 24,853 5,328 5K6 Harrow PCT 9,184 1,491 5P3 East and North Hertfordshire PCT 30,711 6,794 5K7 Camden PCT 13,811 3,301 5P4 West Hertfordshire PCT 32,126 5,529 5K8 Islington PCT 16,898 4,100 5P5 Surrey PCT 69,523 11,194 5K9 Croydon PCT 21,626 5,416 5P6 West Sussex PCT 49,193 8,318 5KF Gateshead PCT 22,194 5,353 5P7 East Sussex Downs and Weald 25,107 5,312 5KG South Tyneside PCT 17,520 4,300 PCT 5KL Sunderland Teaching PCT 30,087 7,249 5P8 Hastings and Rother PCT 15,180 3,096 5KM Middlesbrough PCT 14,285 2,578 5P9 West Kent PCT 44,126 8,596 5L1 Southampton City PCT 18,703 4,219 5PA Leicestershire County and Rutland 41,852 7,552 PCT 5L3 Medway PCT 15,540 2,731 5PC Leicester City PCT 24,068 4,712 5LA Kensington and Chelsea PCT 8,761 1,954 5LC Westminster PCT 12,388 2,401 5PD Northamptonshire Teaching PCT 39,055 8,378 5LD Lambeth PCT 17,368 3,460 5PE Dudley PCT 25,571 4,300 5LE Southwark PCT 16,837 3,649 5PF Sandwell PCT 28,069 5,754 5LF Lewisham PCT 17,304 3,807 5PG Birmingham East and North PCT 38,567 9,151 5LG Wandsworth PCT 16,950 3,305 5PH North Staffordshire PCT 16,758 3,914 5LH Tameside and Glossop PCT 22,573 3,714 5PJ Stoke on Trent PCT 24,872 5,384 5LQ Brighton and Hove City PCT 15,377 2,673 5PK South Staffordshire PCT 36,106 6,371 5M1 South Birmingham PCT 32,819 6,708 5PL Worcestershire PCT 40,747 5,344 5M2 Shropshire County PCT 21,136 3,904 5PM Warwickshire PCT 36,583 6,702 5M3 Walsall Teaching PCT 25,384 5,933 5PN Peterborough PCT 9,692 1,426 5M6 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 12,081 1,836 5PP Cambridgeshire PCT 39,227 6,942 5M7 Sutton and Merton PCT 24,628 5,212 5PQ Norfolk PCT 47,936 7,349 5M8 North Somerset PCT 14,644 2,792 5PR Great Yarmouth and Waveney 15,807 3,792 5MD Coventry Teaching PCT 26,177 5,040 PCT 5MK Telford and Wrekin PCT 11,932 2,052 5PT Suffolk PCT 34,918 5,182 5MV Wolverhampton City PCT 20,363 4,389 5PV West Essex PCT 21,918 4,540 5MX Heart of Birmingham Teaching 20,056 3,067 5PW North East Essex PCT 18,801 4,645 PCT 5PX Mid Essex PCT 16,897 2,677 5N1 Leeds PCT 67,297 15,320 5PY South West Essex PCT 28,657 7,864 5N2 Kirklees PCT 32,652 6,489 5QA Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 46,053 8,932 5N3 Wakefield District PCT 30,323 8,444 5QC Hampshire PCT 81,730 14,848 5N4 Sheffield PCT 61,707 11,683 5QD Buckinghamshire PCT 27,568 4,198 5N5 Doncaster PCT 29,776 6,925 5QE Oxfordshire PCT 28,480 7,579 5N6 Derbyshire County PCT 59,126 12,179 5QF Berkshire West PCT 23,784 3,679 5N7 Derby City PCT 19,012 2,598 5QG Berkshire East PCT 22,066 4,555 5N8 Nottinghamshire County Teaching 42,942 7,260 5QH Gloucestershire PCT 51,048 8,559 PCT 5QJ Bristol PCT 31,729 7,649 5N9 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 50,626 10,445 5QK Wiltshire PCT 30,063 4,668 5NA Redbridge PCT 16,458 2,371 5QL Somerset PCT 34,345 7,525 5NC Waltham Forest PCT 16,611 2,739 5QM Dorset PCT 34,811 5,652 5ND County Durham PCT 43,452 11,508 5QN Bournemouth and Poole Teaching 30,619 5,372 5NE Cumbria Teaching PCT 43,228 9,975 PCT 5NF North Lancashire Teaching PCT 30,543 7,507 5QP Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT 39,821 8,212 537W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 538W

Primary Chronic 1 Addenbrookes NHS trust becomes Cambridge university hospitals NHS care trust of obstructive foundation trust (post 2003-04). responsibility Primary Care Trust Of Respiratory pulmonary Notes: code Responsibility Description diseases disease1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode is the first period of inpatient care under one 5QQ Devon PCT 58,216 11,591 consultant within one healthcare provider. Finished admission episodes are 5QR Redcar and Cleveland PCT 12,999 2,870 counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one 5QT Isle of Wight NHS PCT 6,824 1,113 admission within the year. TAC Northumberland Care Trust 27,489 6,403 Primary diagnosis TAK Bexley Care Trust 13,143 2,681 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03. to 2006-07 and 7 prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data TAL Torbay Care Trust 9,605 1,681 set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. TAM Solihull Care Trust 14,400 2,465 Secondary diagnoses TAN North East Lincolnshire Care Trust 18,248 4,979 As well as the primary diagnosis, there are up to 19 (13 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 Plus and 6 prior to 2002-03) secondary diagnosis fields in HES that show other diagnoses relevant to the episode of care. 1 The chronic obstructive pulmonary disease figures are a subset of the figures Data quality for HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary respiratory diseases. care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data is also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While Hospitals: Admissions this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. PCT/Strategic health authority (SHA) data quality PCT and SHA data was added to historic data years in the HES database using 2002-03 boundaries, as a one-off exercise in 2004. The quality of the data on Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health PCT of treatment and SHA of treatment is poor in 1996-97, 1997-98 and how many patients were admitted to (a) West Suffolk, 1998-99, with over a third of all finished episodes having missing values in these years. Data quality of PCT of general practitioner (GP) practice and SHA of (b) Addenbrookes and (c) Ipswich hospital as a GP practice in 1997-98 and 1998-99 is also poor, with a high proportion missing consequence of (i) alcoholic liver disease and (ii) values where practices changed or ceased to exist. There is less change in cirrhosis in each of the last five years. [286262] completeness of the residence-based fields over time, where the majority of unknown values are due to missing postcodes on birth episodes. Users of time series analysis including these years need to be aware of these issues in their interpretation of the data. Gillian Merron: The following table shows the count Assessing growth through time of finished admission episodes with a primary diagnosis HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of of alcohol liver disease or cirrhosis of the liver for the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be Cambridge university hospitals NHS foundation trust borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for (Addenbrook NHS trust pre 2004-05), Ipswich hospital later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in trust and West Suffolk hospitals NHS trust. the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be Alcoholic liver Cirrhosis of the accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity disease liver over time. Ungrossed data 2007-08 Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in the data, i.e. the data are ungrossed. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned Cambridge University Hospitals activity in the independent sector. NHS Foundation Trust 399 404 Source: Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 83 68 Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care. West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 30 27

2006-07 Individualised Budget Programme Cambridge University Hospitals Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Foundation Trust 400 447 Health which schemes his Department has chosen for Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 58 38 the pilot of the individualised budget programme; how West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 36 28 many patients will participate in the pilot programme; and what methodology will be used in the assessment [285769] 2005-06 of individualised budgets. Cambridge University Hospitals Mr. Mike O’Brien: Following an application process NHS Foundation Trust 449 359 earlier this year, we have provisionally selected 70 pilot Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 47 24 sites, subject to a further progress check. A full list of West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 26 18 provisional pilot sites is available from the Department’s website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Highqualitycareforall/ 2004-05 DH_090018 Cambridge University Hospitals and a copy has been placed in the Library. NHS Foundation Trust 302 252 Pilot sites will initially only offer models of personal Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 45 25 health budget that do not involve direct payments to the West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 27 44 patient. Subject to the passage of the Health Bill, direct payments would become an additional option for pilots 2003-04 during 2010. Addenbrookes NHS Trust1 372 412 We have not set any expectations about numbers of Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 46 37 patients in each pilot site. This will be for local sites to West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 28 29 decide as they develop their proposals. 539W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 540W

We are currently in the process of selecting an evaluation (2) how many of the cases of H1N1 flu reported to team. We published an invitation to tender in April, the Health Protection Agency by 16 June 2009 were describing what areas the evaluation should explore recorded as having been hospitalised by 30 June 2009; and inviting bidders to propose a suitable methodology. and how many such patients were aged (a) under 10, (b) 10 to 19, (c) 20 to 29, (d) 30 to 39, (e) 40 to 49, Influenza (f) 50 to 59 and (g) over 60 years; [285834] (3) how many of the cases of H1N1 flu reported to Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the Health Protection Agency by 16 June 2009 were (1) how many of the cases of H1N1 flu reported to the recorded as being (a) imported, (b) indigenous and Health Protection Agency (HPA) by 16 June 2009 were (c) not assigned or not known. [285835] recorded by the HPA as (a) male, imported, (b) female, imported, (c) male, indigenous and (d) female, Gillian Merron: The cases reported by the Health indigenous H1N1 cases; in how many such cases the Protection Agency (HPA) are shown in the following patient was aged (i) under 10, (ii) 10 to 19, (iii) 20 to 29, tables. (iv) 30 to 39, (v) 40 to 49, (vi) 50 to 59 and (vii) over 60 Not all of the data requested are currently available. years; in how many such cases the HPA has recorded This is because: (A) the date of symptom onset, the date of obtaining testing for swine flu is based on swabs, not blood samples; the blood sample from which the H1N1 diagnosis was data for Scotland are not currently available for the period made and the date of the H1N1 case report and (B) the requested; date of symptom onset, the date of obtaining the blood complete data on the commencement of antiviral treatment or sample from which H1N1 diagnosis was made, the date prophylaxis is not available. This is because once detailed data of the H1N1 case report and the date on which the on the first few hundred cases had been collected, the HPA H1N1 antiviral prophylaxis or treatment was started; stopped collecting that level of detailed information; and [285833] verified data on hospitalisations is only available up to 16 June.

Pandemic influenza A(H1N1) 2009 cases reported by 16 June 2009. England, Wales and Northern Ireland (PQ285833) Age group Over Counts Gender Under 10 10 to 19 20 to 29 30 to 39 40 to 49 50 to 59 60 Unknown Grand total

Imported Female 8 10 25 18 11 2 6 1 81 Male 9 12 35 18 12 8 6 7 107 Unknown 1 3 2 1 7 Imported total 18 22 63 36 25 10 12 9 195

Indigenous Female 62 64 19 16 14 9 2 5 191 Male 64 123 17 11 6 1 2 3 227 Unknown 10 2 2 1 1 1 17 Indigenous total 136 189 38 28 20 11 4 9 435

Unknown Female 48 46 16 7 12 3 2 30 164 Male 50 70 16 17 6 3 26 188 Unknown 17 10 6 2 1 1 33 70 Unknown total 115 126 38 26 19 7 2 89 422 Grand total 269 337 139 90 64 28 18 107 1,052

Date of onset 143 139 62 43 22 6 5 76 496 not known Date of onset 126 198 77 47 42 22 13 31 556 known Grand total 269 337 139 90 64 28 18 107 1,052

Pandemic influenza A(H1N1v) 2009 cases reported by 16 June 2009. England, Wales and Northern Ireland (PQ285834) Number of cases hospitalised Age group Hospitalisation Under 10 10 to 19 20 to 29 30 to 39 40 to 49 50 to 59 Over 60 Unknown Grand total

Yes 2—111——1 6

Pandemic influenza A(H1N1v) 2009 cases reported by 16 June 2009. England, Wales and Northern Ireland (PQ285835) Route of infection imported Total

Imported 195 Indigenous 435 Unknown 422 Grand total 1,052 541W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 542W

KPMG Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format requested. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of adults and children registered with a Health how much the NHS paid to KPMG in each of national health service dentist in England, as at 31 the last five years. [286709] March, 1997 to 2006 is available in Annex A of the ‘NHS Dental Activity and Workforce Report, England: Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not collect 31 March 2006’. Information is provided by primary the specific information requested centrally. care trust (PCT) and by strategic health authority (SHA). Annex B contains this information expressed as a percentage Methadone of the population. This information is based on the old contractual Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements which were in place up to and including Health what percentage of people prescribed methadone 31 March 2006. This report, published on 23 August were from socio-economic group (a) C, (b) D and (c) 2006, has already been placed in the Library and is also E in each year since 1997. [285695] available on the NHS Information Centre website at: www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dwfactivity Gillian Merron: These data are not collected centrally. Under the new dental contractual arrangements, introduced on 1 April 2006, patients do not have to be National Dementia Strategy: Primary Care Trusts registered with an NHS dentist to receive NHS care. The closest equivalent measure to ‘registration’ is the Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for number of patients receiving NHS dental services (‘patients Health what assessment he has made of the effectiveness seen’) over a 24-month period. However, this is not of the implementation of the National Dementia Strategy directly comparable to the registration data for earlier by local primary care trusts. [286411] years. Information on the number of patients seen in the Phil Hope: The Department has not assessed the previous 24 months, in England, is available in Table Dl effectiveness of the implementation of the National of Annex 3 of the ‘NHS Dental Statistics, Quarter 3: Dementia Strategy by local primary care trusts. However, 31 December 2008’ report. Information is available for improving services for people with dementia is a both adults and children at quarterly intervals, from Government priority, and we have already identified it 31 March 2006 to 31 December 2008 and is provided by as a priority for the national health service in the PCT and SHA. Table D2 contains this information operating framework. That will help to ensure that expressed as a percentage of the population. dementia is prioritised locally where further improvement may be needed. This report, published on 21 May 2009, has been placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS The first National Dementia Strategy was published Information Centre website at: on 3 February this year, and will be implemented over a five-year period. A copy has already been placed in the www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0809q3 Library. NHS: Disclosure of Information NHS Purchasing and Supply Team: Pay

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr. Richard Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for how many people are employed by the NHS Health whether the NHS whistle-blowing policy Purchasing and Supply Team; and what the annual applies to foundation trusts. [286622] salary bill is for (a) all its employees and (b) its senior management team. [286370] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 applies to staff employed by national health Mr. Mike O’Brien: The number of people employed service foundation trusts. The Act provides protection by NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency for 2008-09 to employees raising concerns, where they do so in was 257 (whole time equivalent). The annual salary bill accordance with the provisions of the Act. for 2008-09 was as follows:

£ NHS: Information and Communications Technology Employees 13,640,000 Senior management team 874,318 Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he plans to implement the recommendations NHS: Dental Services contained in his Department’s document Coding for Success. [286624] Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the number and Ann Keen: The question relates to a specific percentage of the (a) child and (b) adult population in recommendation of the Health Select Committee in its (i) the East of England region and (ii) Suffolk who report which was published on 3 July. The Government attended an appointment with an NHS dentist in each will be considering carefully all of the Committee’s of the last five years. [286261] recommendations and will respond in due course. 543W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 544W

NHS: Manpower Advantage Healthcare Group Ltd. Ambition Recruitment Services Ltd. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, Apex International Recruitment Ltd. columns 348-49W, on NHS: manpower, which Ashbourne Healthcare Services employment agencies supply staff under each National Athona Ltd. Framework Agreement. [286309] Atlantis Medical Ltd. Ann Keen: The information requested is as follows. Beresford Blake Thomas Suppliers on NHS PASA Medical Locums Framework CAMCO Scientific Ltd. Agreement Capital Care Services (UK) Ltd. Accident and Emergency Agency Ltd. CK Associates Ltd. Ambition Recruitment Services Ltd. Clinical Employment Services Ltd. Arthur Rai Medical Services Ltd. Countrywide Medical Selection Athona Ltd. Dream Group Ltd. Britannic Medical Services Ltd. Elite Recruitment Capital Care Services (UK) Ltd. Geneva Health International Ltd. Care Providers Castlerock Care Services Ltd. Goldteam Recruitment Ltd. Clinical Employment Services Ltd. (CES) Hays Healthcare Corrigan’s Door Ltd. HCL Healthcare Doctors On Call Ltd. Holt Medical Recruitment dr-locums Jennie Reeves Radiographers Agency DRC Locums Ltd. JustPhysio Ltd. Evergood Associates Ltd. Locum Placement Group Ltd. First Medical Staffing Solutions Ltd. Maxxima Geneva Health International Ltd. G4S Integrated services (UK) Ltd. (formerly GSL UK Ltd.) Medacs Healthcare Services plc Hays Healthcare Medic International Ltd. Holt Medical Recruitment Medical Management Services Ltd. ID Medical Medical Technical Ltd. InterAct Consulting (Reality HR) Medicspro Ltd. kcare nursing agency Ltd. Mediplacements Ltd. Medacs Healthcare Services plc Morgan Hunt Medecho Ltd. Orchard Medical Medical Professional Personnel Ltd. Medicspro Ltd. Orion Locums Ltd. Medicure Ltd. Physio Services Ltd. Mediplacements Ltd. Piers Meadows Recruitment Ltd. Medpro Group Pinnacle Podiatry Services Medsol Healthcare Services Ltd. PJ Locums Medteam Healthcare Ltd. PL-UK Recruitment Merco Recruitment Ltd. PPLS International Ltd. Mild Professional Care Ltd. PULSE Staffing Minutes Medical Staffing Ltd. Mylocum Ltd. R&S Medical and Allied Services Ltd. Nationwide Locum Services Ltd. Recruitment Specialist Group Northwest Locums Ltd. Reed HealthCare Orion Locums Ltd. RIG Medical Recruit Ltd. Pioneer Recruitment Ltd. Sanctuary Health Ltd. Pulse Healthcare Ltd. trading as Pulse Doctors Sonographers Medical Ltd. Reed Healthcare Star Angel Care Ltd. Resuscitate Medical Services Ltd. Sugarman Medical Ltd. Richmond Medical Agency RMR Recruitment Ltd. The Locum Partnership Scanloc The Medical Room Ltd. Serving The Nation Locums Ltd. Your World Recruitment Sonographers Medical Ltd. Nursing suppliers on NHS PASAMulti Regional Framework Templars Medical Agency Agreement Thames Medics (HCL) Advantage Healthcare Ltd. The Anaesthetists Agency Allied Healthcare Group Ltd. The Consultants Agency Ltd. Apex Nursing and Care Services Ltd. Total Assist Recruitment Ltd. United Medicare Ltd. Arcadia Recruitment Ltd. Suppliers on NHS PASAAllied Health Professionals/Health Ashbourne Group Ltd. Science Staff Framework Agreement Care Providers (AD) Ltd. 1st 4 Locums Celsian health and Social Care 545W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 546W

Direct Nursing Associates Ltd. External Support for Commissioning programme in ENS Recruitment Ltd. each year of the programme. [286633] Excel Direct Nursing Agency Fowler Group Ltd. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Efficiency savings could not be Healthcare Recruiters Ltd. anticipated in advance of national health service use of Jark Healthcare Ltd. the framework. These will be determined on a case-by-case basis, dependent upon type of support required by each Kcare Nursing Agency Ltd. individual commissioning authority. Key Care and Support Ltd. Some commissioning authorities stipulate a requirement L S Care Ltd. for Framework for procuring External Support for NL Group Ltd. Commissioners (FESC) suppliers to commit to the Medacs Healthcare plc generation of a degree of savings. This differs from Medical Professional Personnel Ltd. procurement to procurement, and will be dependent Medicall (Northampton) Ltd. upon the type of commissioning service being procured. Montagu Nursing Agency To date, in those contracts where this stipulation has Pinnacle Primcare Services Ltd. been made, FESC suppliers have committed to guaranteed savings totalling £18 million. This figure does not include Pulse healthcare Ltd. any additional incremental savings subsequently achieved R & S Medical and Allied Services Ltd. during the course of a contract. Servoca Nursing and care Ltd. Team Medical Ltd. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for The Flame Lily Nursing Agency Health what the net cost of the Framework for Twenty Four Seven Recruitment (Yorkshire) Ltd. Procuring External Support for Commissioning Nursing suppliers on NHS PASA London Framework programme has been to date. [286634] Agreement Advantage Healthcare Nursing and Care Ltd. Mr. Mike O’Brien: To date, the total net cost to the Advantage Healthcare Overseas Staffing national health service for procurements through the Framework for procuring External Support for Allied Healthcare Group Commissioners (FESC) is £15 million. In some cases, Capital Staffing Services Ltd. dependent upon the type of services being procured, Care Providers (AD) Ltd. there are likely to be additional incremental savings, Castlerock Care Services Ltd. which will be shared between the commissioning authority Direct Nursing Associates Ltd. and the FESC supplier. ENS Recruitment Ltd. Firstpoint Healthcare Ltd. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Geneva Health International Ltd. Health how much his Department has paid to KPMG Hays Specialist Recruitment Ltd. as part of the Framework for Procuring External Support for Commissioning programme to date. Health Professionals Recruitment Services Ltd. [286635] Kaidy Ventures Ltd. London Nurses Agency Ltd. Mr. Mike O’Brien: To date, no contracts have been Medical Professional Personnel Ltd. signed with KPMG by commissioning authorities through Montagu Nursing Agency the Framework for procuring External Support for Nursing 2000 Ltd. Commissioners (FESC). Therefore, to date, the amount Paediatric Nursing Link Ltd. paid to KPMG in relation to provision of services Pertemps Recruitment Solutions through FESC is £0.00. KPMG did provide the central FESC team with some assistance in developing some Pinnacle Health Care Ltd. elements of the generic template documentation. This Pulse Healthcare Ltd. was a short-term consultancy arrangement to a total Qualified Cancer Care Ltd. value of approximately £25,000. R & S Medical & Allied Services Ltd. Reed Health Ltd. NHS: Working Hours Standard Nursing Agency Star Nursing Agency Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Strand Nurses Bureau Ltd. for Health pursuant to the answer of 6 June 2009, Tempaid Recruitment Ltd. Official Report, column 590W, for what reasons he has Top Carers Nursing Agency not yet published the information requested; and if he will publish the information before the House rises for Vera Nursing & Employment Agency the summer adjournment. [286927]

NHS: Procurement Ann Keen: We will publish the information when we communicate to the European Commission on the Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for provisions of the Working Time (Amendment) Regulations, Health what efficiency savings were (a) anticipated (Statutory Instrument 2009 No 1567 Terms and Conditions and (b) generated under the Framework for Procuring of Employment) which is currently before Parliament. 547W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 548W

Nutrition Ann Keen: The Government have established the Professional Standards Programme to take forward the Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health recommendations contained in “Trust, Assurance, Safety what the criteria are for entitlement to access a and Safeguarding Patients”. nutritionist on the NHS. [283933] Between now and 2012 the Government plan to continue with this programme of reform. Elements of Gillian Merron: There are no nationally prescribed the programme that are planned to be implemented in criteria for entitlement to see a nutritionist on the this period include; establishing the Office of the Healthcare national health service, rather it is a matter for each Professions Adjudicator and designing and introducing individual health practitioner to make a clinical decision systems of revalidation for regulated health care to refer a patient if they think it advisable, in line with professionals, starting with doctors. any locally determined guidelines that may apply. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Social Services clinical guidelines on Nutrition Support in Adults covers the care of those patients with malnutrition or at risk of Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for malnutrition at hospital and at home. Health how many people have received care packages Patients: Discharges part-funded by the NHS following an assessment by social services in each local authority in each of the last Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for five years; and if he will make a statement. [286989] Health how many bed nights in each hospital trust were spent by patients who were ready for discharge but Phil Hope: Information of the number of people remained in hospital in the financial year (a) 2007-08 receiving care packages part-funded by the national and (b) 2008-09; and what estimate he has made of the health service following a social services assessment is cost to the NHS of such delayed discharges in each such not collected. year. [286348] Suffolk NHS Trust: Manpower Phil Hope: The requested information has been placed in the Library. Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health No estimate has been made of the costs to the national how many (a) doctors, (b) nurses, (c) dentists and (d) health service of delayed discharges. non-medical staff Suffolk NHS Trust employed in each of the last five years. [286563] Radon Gas: Houses Ann Keen: Information as to how many doctors, Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State nurses, dentists and non-medical staff Suffolk NHS for Health what recent estimate he has made of the trust employed in each of the last five years is shown in number and location of households liable to be the following table. affected by high levels of radon gas; and if he will make NHS hospital and community health services (HCHS): NHS staff in the West a statement. [284406] Suffolk hospitals NHS trust by specified staff group, as at 30 September each year Gillian Merron: The Health Protection Agency (HPA) Headcount estimate that approximately 100,000 homes in the UK 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 exceed the action level of 200 Bequerels/m3 and the location of houses above the action level is shown in a West Suffolk NHS 3,140 3,068 2,825 2,805 2,928 Trust map taken from the 2008 HPA Indicative Atlas of Radon in England and Wales (see following web link). Medical and Dental 274 283 285 274 284 The complete atlas has more detailed information if staff needed. Only 0.2 per cent. of houses are above the Medical staff 266 273 281 268 280 action level. Dental staff 8 10464 www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ HPAweb_C/1195733749409?p=1158934607718 Professionally qualified 1,296 1,307 1,228 1,237 1,305 The HPA is currently carrying out a public consultation clinical staff exercise on whether the Action Level should be reduced, Qualified nursing, 1,013 986 919 932 984 among other questions. midwifery and health visiting staff Householders and employers are able to find out the Qualified scientific, 283 321 309 305 321 risk of a high radon gas level in a property from the therapeutic and radon probability maps of the United Kingdom published technical staff by the HPA and, for England and Wales, the British Qualified Allied Health 143 141 130 122 125 Geological Survey. Professions Qualified Healthcare 62 67 70 74 72 Safeguarding Patients and Trust Assurance and Safety Scientists Other Qualified 78 113 109 109 124 Scientific, therapeutic Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and technical staff what programmes his Department has initiated to deliver policies outlined in Safeguarding Patients and Support to clinical staff 1,005 971 863 845 870 Trust Assurance and Safety since 2007; and what Support to doctors and 839 835 745 731 754 further such programmes are planned for the period to nursing staff 2012. [286731] Support to ST&T staff 166 136 118 114 116 549W Written Answers15 JULY 2009 Written Answers 550W

NHS hospital and community health services (HCHS): NHS staff in the West might have swine flu, and how to keep good hygiene to Suffolk hospitals NHS trust by specified staff group, as at 30 September each year reduce the risk of further spread. Headcount 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Tattooing: Plastic Surgery

NHS infrastructure 565 507 449 449 469 Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State support for Health how many (a) men and (b) women (i) over Central functions 111 99 100 109 116 25 years old and (ii) 25 years old and under have had Hotel, property and 381 332 297 285 291 tattoos removed by the NHS in each year since 2000; estates and how many and what proportion were aged 25 years Managers and senior 73 76 52 55 62 and under. [284410] managers Notes: Data Quality Gillian Merron: Information on the numbers of tattoo Workforce statistics are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts removal procedures carried out by the national health and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage service requested is not collected centrally, as hospital submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and episode statistics do not contain specific or diagnosis the effect of missing and invalid data. Processing methods and procedures are codes for tattoo removal. continually being updated to improve data quality. Where this happens any impact on figures already published will be assessed but unless this is Tattoo removal may be available on the NHS, according significant at national level they will not be changed. Where there is impact to local primary care trust policies, if a clinician considers only at detailed or local level this will be footnoted in relevant analyses. Sources: that an individual patient’s health requires it. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Medical and Dental Workforce Census and The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce Census. Telemedicine Swine Flu: Schools Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for Health what proportion of his Department’s how many (a) schools and (b) special schools have Preventative Technology Grant (a) was spent on been closed as a result of an outbreak of swine telecare in 2006-07 and (b) he estimates will be spent influenza. [286316] on telecare in 2007-08; and if he will make a statement. [286968] Gillian Merron: Information provided to the Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF), initially by Phil Hope: The £80 million Preventative Technology the Health Protection Agency and subsequently by Grant was granted to local authorities with social care Government offices, shows that a total of 100 schools, responsibilities to provide telecare services, however including six special schools, had closed by 9 July 2009. this funding was not ring-fenced. Specific details of Of those schools, 93 had reopened by 9 July, leaving how this money was used by individual local authorities seven schools closed, including five special schools. was not gathered, however it is known that the number There is no statutory duty on schools to report their of new telecare and telehealth users have increased by closure to DCSF, so this data is not necessarily complete. over 200,000. Any residual Preventative Technology Grant money was allowed to be carried over into 2008-09 Swine Flu: Teesside to help sustain momentum. No money has been recovered by the Department and local authorities are expected to Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health have used grant funding for telecare purposes. what steps the NHS is taking to (a) assist those During the period of the grant over £80 million resident in Teesside who have been diagnosed with worth of business has been procured through the PASA swine influenza and (b) prevent to further spread of Telecare National Framework Agreement. swine influenza in Teesside. [285332]

Gillian Merron: The North East Strategic Health vCJD Authority (SHA) has advised that so far the North East has not experienced the high number of cases seen in Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for other areas of the country. Health pursuant to the answer of 3 July 2009, Official Now that the management of swine flu has moved to Report, column 1021W, on vCJD, if he will publish the the treatment phase, testing for confirmation of individual results of the evaluation of vCJD prototype assays; cases is no longer taking place, the Health Protection and if he will make a statement. [286480] Agency will not have statistics about number of cases and where they are occurring. Gillian Merron: Evaluation of prototype variant In line with national and regional plans, Teesside’s Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease blood assays is ongoing, and public health team is continuing, through effective interim results will not be issued at this stage. Results communications to ensure the public is kept fully informed will eventually be published under the auspices of the about swine flu, what to do if a person believes they CJD Resource Centre Oversight Committee.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 281 WALES—continued Armed Forces ...... 290 European Structural Funds...... 278 Engagements...... 281 Health Care Provision...... 274 Manufacturing Industry...... 271 WALES...... 271 Police (Funding) ...... 277 Aluminium Production ...... 273 Steel Industry...... 280 Armed Forces Day 2010...... 279 Training and Employment ...... 275 Economic Inactivity...... 278 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 15 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 15WS JUSTICE...... 29WS UK Low Carbon Industrial Strategy...... 15WS Inquests (Service Personnel)...... 30WS Lasting Powers of Attorney, Enduring Powers of CABINET OFFICE...... 16WS Attorney and Public Guardian (Amendment) Social Investment Wholesale bank Consultation.... 16WS Regulations...... 29WS Legal Aid and Prisoners...... 30WS Office of the Public Guardian (Annual Report CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 20WS and Accounts)...... 32WS Schools Capital ...... 20WS United Kingdom Supreme Court...... 32WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 21WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 33WS Fire and Resilience...... 21WS Police Ombudsman (Annual Report and Accounts) ...... 33WS DEFENCE...... 22WS Afghanistan Troop Levels (Autumn 2009 TRANSPORT ...... 33WS Roulement) ...... 22WS Low Carbon Transport: A Greener Judicial Review Appeal ...... 25WS Future-Strategy...... 34WS Military Low Flying...... 25WS Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Correction)..... 33WS Renewable Fuels Agency (Annual Report and Accounts) ...... 35WS HEALTH...... 26WS Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services ...... 26WS TREASURY ...... 17WS Life Assurance Company Taxation ...... 17WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 29WS Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2009 . 19WS Criminal Records Bureau (Annual Report)...... 29WS UK’s Asset Freezing Regime (April to June 2009) . 18WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 15 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 5P PRESENTED PETITION Schools (Manchester)...... 5P Post Office Closure (Kent) ...... 5P

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 6P TREASURY ...... 9P HIV and the G8 ...... 6P Taxation (Bingo Clubs)...... 9P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 500W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Business: Government Assistance ...... 500W LDV...... 504W Economic Challenge Investment Fund...... 501W London Metropolitan University...... 504W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 501W Post Office Card Account ...... 506W Higher Education: York...... 502W Students: Fees and Charges...... 506W Islam: Higher Education...... 503W Students: Radicalism...... 506W Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Training: Logistics ...... 507W continued Unemployment: Young People...... 507W International Comparison of Geographical Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 508W Trading Models...... 497W Islam...... 497W CABINET OFFICE...... 456W Islam: Faith Schools...... 497W Eating Disorders: Death ...... 456W Local Government: Data Protection ...... 498W Employment ...... 456W Local Government: Translation Services...... 498W Employment: North East...... 458W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 498W Government Departments: Recruitment ...... 460W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 499W Health...... 461W Public Lavatories: Disabled...... 499W Lord Ashcroft: Taxation ...... 461W Social Rented Housing: Hertfordshire ...... 500W Social Rented Housing: Immigrants ...... 499W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 462W Social Rented Housing: Standards...... 499W Academies...... 462W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 463W DEFENCE...... 377W Child Minding ...... 464W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 377W Children: Databases...... 464W Armed Forces: Mental Health ...... 377W Children: Disabled ...... 465W Armed Forces: Training ...... 378W Children: Protection...... 465W Ascension Island...... 378W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 466W Departmental Accountancy ...... 378W Education: Assessments ...... 466W Departmental Information Officers ...... 378W Further Education ...... 466W Operation Herrick 10: Operation Herrick 9 ...... 379W Head Teachers: Age ...... 467W Tornado Aircraft...... 379W Higher Education: Finance ...... 467W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 379W Members: Correspondence ...... 468W National Curriculum Tests...... 468W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 411W National Curriculum Tests: Public Consultation.... 468W Berkeley Power Station ...... 411W Ofsted: Manpower ...... 469W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 412W Play: Finance ...... 469W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 412W Playgrounds: Hertfordshire ...... 471W Energy: Conservation...... 412W Primary Education: Finance ...... 471W Energy: Meters...... 413W Qualification: Social Work...... 472W European Energy Market...... 413W Rehabilitation: Lincolnshire...... 472W Evian ...... 414W Religion: Education ...... 473W Fuel Poverty...... 414W Schools ...... 473W Future Energy Networks Team ...... 416W Schools: Finance...... 473W Insulation: Housing ...... 416W Teachers: Rarely Cover ...... 477W Low Carbon Buildings Programme...... 415W Truancy: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 478W Members: Correspondence ...... 417W Youth Crime Priority Areas: Finance...... 479W Nuclear Decommissioning Authority...... 417W Nuclear Power...... 418W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 483W Nuclear Power Stations: Construction ...... 418W Allotments ...... 483W Plutonium ...... 419W Allotments: Lancashire ...... 484W Power Stations: Influenza...... 419W Collective Worship...... 484W Radioactive Waste: Waste Management...... 420W Community Relations ...... 484W Renewable Energy...... 421W Council Housing: Finance ...... 484W Warm Front Scheme ...... 421W Council Tax ...... 484W Departmental Accountancy ...... 485W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Contracts ...... 485W AFFAIRS...... 386W Departmental Internet ...... 485W Abandoned Vehicles...... 386W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 485W Circuses: Animal Welfare...... 386W Departmental Publications ...... 485W Departmental Internet ...... 386W Departmental Secondment ...... 486W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 386W Departmental Work Experience...... 486W Horses: Artificial Insemination ...... 387W Deposit Protection Service...... 486W Landfill: Carbon Emissions ...... 387W Derelict Land...... 488W Mobile Phones ...... 387W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 489W Pollution: Fines...... 388W Empty Dwelling Management Orders...... 489W Primates...... 388W Faith and Social Cohesion Unit ...... 489W Sustainable Development Commission ...... 388W Fire Services...... 490W Veterinary Medicines Agency: Pay...... 388W Fire Services: Manpower...... 490W Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges ...... 389W Fires: Domestic Waste ...... 491W Weed Control...... 389W Flats: Construction ...... 493W Green Belt...... 493W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 450W Guidance for Local Authorities on Translation of Belarus: Human Rights...... 450W Publications ...... 494W Colombia: Overseas Aid ...... 451W Housing: Hertfordshire ...... 494W Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Housing: Low Incomes ...... 494W Enforced Disappearance ...... 451W Housing: Overcrowding ...... 496W Council of Ministers ...... 451W Housing: Single People ...... 496W Departmental Accountancy ...... 452W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— HOME DEPARTMENT...... 392W continued Alcoholic Drinks...... 392W Diplomatic Service: Finance ...... 452W Alcoholic Drinks: Young People ...... 392W Eritrea: Prisoners ...... 453W Asylum ...... 393W India ...... 453W Asylum: Finance...... 393W India: Christianity...... 453W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 393W India: Females...... 454W British Citizenship ...... 393W International Trade ...... 454W British Nationality ...... 397W Israel: Egypt...... 454W Cannabis: Suffolk...... 398W Kenya...... 454W Citizenship: Gurkhas ...... 398W Nuclear Weapons...... 455W Crime: Suffolk...... 398W Sri Lanka: India...... 455W Crimes of Violence: West Suffolk...... 399W Sri Lanka: Politics and Government ...... 455W Criminal Records Bureau...... 399W Demos...... 400W Departmental Energy...... 400W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 400W HEALTH...... 514W Deportation ...... 401W Accident and Emergency Departments: Alcohol.... 514W DNA: Databases...... 401W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 514W Drugs...... 401W Carers ...... 514W Entry Clearances...... 402W Dental Services: Waiting Lists...... 515W Essex Police Authority: Absenteeism ...... 403W Departmental Contracts ...... 516W Forensic Science: North West...... 404W Departmental Data Protection...... 516W G20: Protest...... 405W Departmental Databases...... 517W Human Trafficking: Babies ...... 405W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 519W Human Trafficking: Convictions...... 405W Departmental Hospitality ...... 519W Illegal Immigrants: Deportation ...... 407W Departmental Manpower...... 519W Jersey ...... 407W Departmental Policy ...... 520W National Security Strategy: Electromagnetic Dietary Supplements: EC Law...... 521W Pulses...... 407W Doctors: Working Hours ...... 521W Offensive Weapons...... 408W Drinking Water: Fluoride ...... 522W Offensive Weapons: Amnesties...... 408W Drugs...... 522W Personation...... 409W Drugs: Misuse...... 522W Police Community Support Officers: Clothing...... 409W Drugs: Risk Assessment...... 523W Police Community Support Officers: Eating Disorders: Finance...... 523W Staffordshire ...... 409W Epilepsy: Medical Treatments ...... 523W Police: Stun Guns...... 409W Food: Chemical Analysis ...... 524W UK Border Agency: Office of the Chief Inspector. 410W Food: Safety...... 524W Vetting ...... 411W General Practitioners: Finance...... 525W Health Hazards: Mobile Phones ...... 525W Health: Research...... 532W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 508W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 527W Afghanistan ...... 508W Health Services: Waiting Lists...... 531W Afghanistan: Overseas Aid...... 508W Health Visitors: Crimes of Violence...... 532W Afghanistan: Prisoners...... 509W Heart Diseases: Death...... 532W Africa: Overseas Aid ...... 509W Hospital Beds...... 533W Armed Conflict...... 510W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 537W CDC ...... 510W Individualised Budget Programme ...... 538W Departmental Databases...... 510W Influenza...... 539W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 510W KPMG...... 541W Departmental Information Officers ...... 511W Methadone...... 541W Departmental Procurement...... 511W National Dementia Strategy: Primary Care Trusts. 541W Developing Countries ...... 512W NHS: Dental Services ...... 541W Overseas Aid...... 512W NHS: Disclosure of Information ...... 542W Palestinians: Overseas Aid ...... 512W NHS: Information and Communications Remittances ...... 513W Technology ...... 542W Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid...... 513W NHS: Manpower ...... 543W NHS: Procurement ...... 545W JUSTICE...... 435W NHS Purchasing and Supply Team: Pay ...... 541W Debt Collection...... 435W NHS: Working Hours ...... 546W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 435W Nutrition...... 547W Driving under Influence: Convictions ...... 436W Patients: Discharges ...... 547W Drugs: Convictions ...... 438W Radon Gas: Houses ...... 547W Freedom of Information ...... 441W Safeguarding Patients and Trust Assurance and HM Prison Service: Secondment...... 443W Safety...... 547W Interim Possession Order ...... 443W Social Services...... 548W Local Government Association...... 443W Suffolk NHS Trust: Manpower ...... 548W Prisoners ...... 443W Swine Flu: Schools...... 549W Prisons: Drugs ...... 444W Swine Flu: Teesside ...... 549W Probation ...... 444W Tattooing: Plastic Surgery ...... 550W Probation: Essex ...... 445W Telemedicine ...... 550W Probation: Reoffenders ...... 445W vCJD...... 550W Probation: Staffordshire...... 446W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TREASURY—continued Remand in Custody: Ethnic Groups ...... 448W Travel: Insurance...... 483W Remand in Custody: Young People...... 448W Reoffenders...... 449W WALES...... 390W Sentencing...... 450W Crime Levels ...... 390W Crime Prevention ...... 390W SCOTLAND...... 380W Holiday Lettings ...... 391W Conditions of Employment...... 380W Holtham Commission...... 390W Departmental Accountancy ...... 380W Public Expenditure: Wales ...... 391W Departmental Buildings...... 380W Rail Service: Aberystwyth-London ...... 391W Departmental Data Protection...... 380W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 423W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 381W Action for Employment ...... 423W Departmental Publications ...... 381W Children: Maintenance ...... 423W Departmental Data Protection...... 423W TRANSPORT ...... 382W Departmental Databases...... 424W Air Misses...... 382W Departmental Equal Opportunities...... 424W Aircraft: Air Conditioning ...... 382W Employment Schemes: Public Sector ...... 425W Aviation: Exhaust Emissions...... 383W Future Jobs Fund...... 426W Departmental Information...... 384W Future Jobs Fund: Oxfordshire...... 426W Departmental Pay ...... 384W Health and Safety Executive: Freedom of Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 384W Information ...... 426W Railways: Franchises ...... 385W Housing Benefit ...... 427W Shipping...... 385W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 427W Jobcentre Plus: Offices ...... 428W TREASURY ...... 480W Jobcentre Plus: Pay ...... 429W Banks: Iceland ...... 480W Local Housing Allowance...... 429W Departmental Data Protection...... 480W Members: Correspondence ...... 430W Departmental Training ...... 480W Mesothelioma ...... 430W Financial Services: Regulation ...... 480W New Deal Schemes...... 431W Hedge Funds...... 481W Poverty...... 432W Interpal ...... 481W Social Security Benefits: Overpayments ...... 433W Members: Correspondence ...... 481W Unemployment ...... 433W Operational Efficiency Programme: Met Office ..... 481W Unemployment: Oxfordshire...... 433W Pay: North East ...... 482W Unemployment: Young People...... 434W Public Expenditure...... 482W Young Persons’ Guarantee...... 434W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 15 July 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 271] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

UK Low Carbon Transition Plan [Col. 293] Statement—(Edward Miliband)

Personal Responsibility [Col. 313] Bill presented, and read the First time

Protection of Elderly People (Unsolicited Mail) [Col. 314] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr. Robathan)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [16th allotted day] US-UK Extradition Treaty [Col. 318] Motion—(Chris Grayling)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Alan Johnson)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Caring for the Elderly [Col. 365] Motion—(Mr. Waterson)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Angela Eagle)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 413]

Diageo Closures [Col. 414] Debate on motion for Adjournment

East Midlands Regional Grand Committee [Col. 423] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Abortion Law (Northern Ireland) [Col. 73WH] Mr. Michael Shields [Col. 97WH] Local and Regional Newspapers [Col. 105WH] Combat Stress [Col. 130WH] Apprenticeships [Col. 137WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 377W] [see index inside back page]