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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS ______

The attached transcript, while an accurate recording of evidence given in the course of the hearing day, is not proofread prior to circulation and thus may contain minor errors.

2009 VICTORIAN BUSHFIRES ROYAL COMMISSION

MELBOURNE

WEDNESDAY 31 MARCH 2010 (127th day of hearing)

BEFORE:

THE HONOURABLE B. TEAGUE AO - Chairman MR R. MCLEOD AM - Commissioner MS S. PASCOE AM - Commissioner

______CRS WORDWAVE PTY LTD - A MERRILL COMPANY. 4/190 Queen Street, . Telephone: 9602 1799 Facsimile: 9642 5185

17154 1 MS RICHARDS: Commissioners, today's evidence focuses on 2 municipal fire prevention. It will not have escaped you, 3 Commissioners, that during the hearings there have been a 4 very large number of references to municipal fire 5 prevention: municipal fire prevention plans, municipal 6 fire prevention officers, municipal fire prevention 7 committees and fire prevention notices issued by municipal 8 fire prevention officers. It is a topic that is relevant 9 to a very broad range of the subjects that the Commission 10 has examined, including emergency management, refuges and 11 their poor cousin, neighbourhood safer places, township 12 protection planning, integrated fire management planning 13 that we heard about from Mr Free in June last year, the 14 Victorian fire risk register, land use planning, roadside 15 management and of course fuel management. 16 From the many references to municipal fire 17 prevention in the course of looking at each of those 18 topics, it does appear that many, if not most, roads for 19 managing bushfire risk lead eventually to local fire 20 prevention and planning. As things stand, the principal 21 mechanism for that to occur is through the municipal fire 22 prevention scheme that's established under the CFA Act. 23 It is necessary therefore to have a close look at that 24 scheme, how it works, how it is changing and its potential 25 for further change. 26 The CFA Act requires each of the 64 councils in 27 the country area of to appoint a municipal fire 28 prevention officer or MFPO. The MFPO is responsible for 29 issuing fire prevention notices under the CFA Act, section 30 41, sometimes with the help of an assistant municipal fire 31 prevention officer. The Commissioners will recall the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17155 MS RICHARDS Bushfires Royal Commission 1 evidence about that during the land use planning topic. 2 The MFPO is also the chair and executive officer of the 3 municipal fire prevention committee which is constituted 4 under section 54 of the CFA Act. 5 That Act also requires each council to prepare a 6 municipal fire prevention plan and there are a number of 7 those in evidence already. In the course of the 8 examination of the fires, the municipal emergency response 9 officers whose statements were tendered each attached the 10 relevant municipal fire prevention plan for the 11 municipality. The plan is required to identify areas, 12 buildings and land use which are at particular risk in 13 case of fire, to specify how each identified risk is to be 14 treated and who is to be responsible for treating those 15 risks. Community fire refuges and neighbourhood safer 16 places are also to be identified in these plans. 17 Advising the council in relation to the municipal 18 fire prevention plan is an important function of the 19 municipal fire prevention committee. This is a 20 well-established scheme with many benefits and a great 21 deal of work is done under the rubric of the scheme. 22 Rachael Thompson of the CFA, who is the acting fire 23 planning coordinator and sometime fire prevention 24 improvement officer, will outline the scheme for the 25 Commission as the first witness this morning, and she will 26 touch on the responsibilities of municipal fire prevention 27 officers, the training and support that's provided to them 28 by the CFA, the constitution and role of the municipal 29 fire prevention committees, the guidelines prepared by the 30 CFA for municipal fire prevention planning and the 31 criteria against which the CFA audits municipal fire

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17156 MS RICHARDS Bushfires Royal Commission 1 prevention plans. 2 As Ms Thompson will also outline, the municipal 3 fire prevention scheme has its problems as well as its 4 benefits. These were identified in August 2002 by an 5 internal CFA review which is known as the best practice 6 review, a copy of which is attached to Ms Thompson's 7 statement. That review made a number of findings about 8 the operation of the municipal fire prevention scheme and 9 a number of recommendations, and Ms Thompson will outline 10 those and will explain the actions that the CFA has taken 11 to implement the recommendations of that review. 12 The Auditor-General's 2003 report on fire 13 prevention and preparedness, which is in evidence as 14 exhibit 720, picked up on the recommendations of the best 15 practice review and in particular focused on a need to 16 address the integration of fire prevention planning 17 involving all levels of government and all stakeholders. 18 This of course was a theme that was developed in the 19 Esplin report and, as we know from the evidence of 20 Mr Free, this series of recommendations for greater 21 integration in fire management planning eventually led to 22 the establishment of the integrated fire management 23 planning framework. As will be seen, the IFMP is the 24 response to many of the recommendations that were made in 25 the best practice review back in 2002. 26 After Ms Thompson's evidence this morning the 27 Commission will hear evidence from two municipal fire 28 prevention officers from very different municipalities, 29 Darryl Farmer from Alpine and Kevin Kittel from the 30 . Both of them will outline their 31 role as the municipal fire prevention officer, the way

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17157 MS RICHARDS Bushfires Royal Commission 1 they combine it with their range of other responsibilities 2 as council employees, the constitution and working of the 3 municipal fire prevention committee in their shire and the 4 municipal fire prevention plan that they have in place in 5 their shire. 6 Both have experience of the implementation of the 7 Victorian fire risk register in their shire and will talk 8 to the Commission about that. Mr Farmer also has recent 9 experience in the of township protection 10 planning and designation of neighbourhood safer places and 11 will cover that in his evidence. 12 Interestingly, the shire of Corangamite is in the 13 process of moving from the old municipal fire prevention 14 scheme that I have just outlined to the integrated fire 15 management planning framework and has established a 16 municipal fire management planning committee which is to 17 take over the work of the municipal fire prevention 18 committee. Mr Kittel will talk about that transition in 19 his evidence. 20 Before I call Ms Thompson, there are some 21 documents that I would like to tender. The first is the 22 municipal fire prevention officer learning manual which is 23 document (CFA.600.003.0306). There is a small extract of 24 this already in evidence that was tendered in the course 25 of the land use planning topic by Mr Young, but the entire 26 learning manual is now tendered. 27 The second is a much larger omnibus exhibit 28 called the State of Victoria response tender bundle, which 29 is a collection of a large number of documents provided by 30 the State of Victoria relevant to its response to the 31 Commission's interim report. That's tendered today in

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17158 MS RICHARDS Bushfires Royal Commission 1 part because it is 31 March, the date on which delivery of 2 reports was requested, and also because of the inclusion 3 in it of a good deal of material about the implementation 4 of the Victorian fire risk register. So if I could tender 5 both of those documents as separate exhibits. 6 #EXHIBIT 830 - Municipal Fire Prevention Officer - Learning 7 Manual, dated 1 August 2008 (CFA.600.003.0306) to 8 (CFA.600.003.0543). 9 #EXHIBIT 831 - Index to State of Victoria Response Tender 10 Bundle (INDX.783.001.0001). 11 MS RICHARDS: Thank you, Commissioner. Unless there are any 12 questions, I call Ms Thompson. 13

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17159 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 With those corrections, is your statement true and 2 correct?---Yes, it is. 3 I tender that, Commissioners. 4 #EXHIBIT 832 - Witness statement of Rachael Leanne Thompson 5 dated 23 March 2010 plus nine attachments 6 (WIT.3004.040.0263). State Fire Management Strategy 7 (CFA.001.034.0001). 8 MS RICHARDS: Ms Thompson, can I start by asking you a little 9 bit about your own background. Your tertiary 10 qualification is a Bachelor of Arts in recreation. How 11 has that led you into your current position?---Yes, it's 12 an interesting one. I guess I looked at environmental 13 management and tourism as my major sort of stream, so 14 there isn't a hell of a lot of connection. But I was a 15 CFA volunteer while I was undertaking studies, so I ended 16 up going through my CFA involvement and it sort of brought 17 me to where I am now rather than through my education. 18 You have worked full-time for the CFA since 2003?---That's 19 correct. 20 And for a great deal of that time you have held the role of the 21 fire prevention improvement officer?---(Witness nods.) 22 Or FPIO as you tell us in paragraph 7 of your statement. What 23 are the duties of that role?---The main duty of that role 24 is to audit the State's fire prevention plans, so over a 25 rolling three year period I would audit the 64 plans. It 26 is also to promote best practice in regard to planning and 27 to try and assist councils in being able to do their job 28 better through providing technical advice to them and also 29 different forums, their MFPO training, all of those sorts 30 of things, to help the municipalities get through and also 31 to support our CFA areas in helping municipalities to do

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17160 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 their job better. 2 While that remains your substantive position, you have been 3 acting as the fire planning coordinator since last 4 year?---Yes. 5 And that is a role usually held by Mr Leslie who is engaged in 6 other things at present?---Yes, that's right. 7 Can I ask you please to turn to paragraph 12 of your statement 8 and provide the Commission with a broad outline of what 9 the CFA Act requires of councils in relation to fire 10 prevention?---Essentially there's a reasonably small 11 component but quite difficult and a lot of work associated 12 with it. The measures cover things like the appointment 13 of the MFPO and their delegates, the appointment of their 14 municipal fire prevention committees, the development of 15 the municipal fire prevention plans, audit arrangements, 16 the issuance of fire prevention notices, permits to burn 17 and there are the responsibilities under section 43 in 18 regard to compelling councils and public authorities to 19 take steps practical to prevent and minimise the 20 occurrence and spread of fires. 21 You mentioned in correcting your statement permits to burn 22 under section 38?---Yes. 23 If we can move to one aspect of that package of measures and 24 that's the municipal fire prevention officer. What are 25 the responsibilities of a municipal fire prevention 26 officer?---The municipal fire prevention officer acts as 27 the executive and the chairperson of the MFPC. They have 28 a responsibility to issue fire prevention notices where 29 required, to assess permits to burn, to develop the 30 municipal fire prevention plan along with the municipal 31 fire prevention committee. Did I say they issue fire

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17161 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 prevention notices? Yes, sorry. That's probably about 2 it. I might have missed a couple. 3 The municipal fire prevention officer is a position that 4 councils are obliged by the Act to fill. They must 5 appoint one municipal fire prevention officer?---(Witness 6 nods.) 7 There is also scope for assistance, is there not?---That's 8 right. They can delegate their powers to an assistant. 9 In the course of your work as the fire prevention improvement 10 officer you have had extensive dealings with municipal 11 fire prevention officers across the country area of 12 Victoria. Can you outline for the Commission a profile of 13 the kind of council employees who are appointed to this 14 position?---Yes. Generally the municipal fire prevention 15 officers across the state fall within the local laws 16 department. I would say the majority of them fall in that 17 sort of area. Some of them are involved in environmental 18 health and also their actual environmental departments. 19 I know of 15 across the state that are actually full-time 20 MFPOs that operate in their own right. Some of them also 21 have responsibilities for being the MERO as well. 22 So there are 15 out of the 64 who are full-time?---That's 23 correct. 24 Although they often combine that with the responsibilities of 25 municipal emergency response officer?---Yes, there are a 26 few that will do the same thing, so I guess they're really 27 not full-time. 28 What about the remainder who are not full-time? Do you have a 29 sense of the proportion of their time that is committed to 30 municipal fire prevention as opposed to their other 31 duties?---It ranges depending on the level of risk within

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17162 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 their community and also the level of where fire 2 prevention sits in regard to its importance within the 3 council and also I think in regard to their funding 4 arrangements also. So I would say across the board as a 5 generalisation that most of the municipal fire prevention 6 officers are maybe manager of the local laws department, 7 so they are not in senior management positions. 8 In the council hierarchy where do municipal fire prevention 9 officers tend to sit, as a generalisation?---I would say 10 as manager, yes, of a local laws sort of section 11 generally. 12 So two or three removes from the CEO?---Sometimes four, 13 depending on the size of the council. 14 All right. You outline in your statement starting at paragraph 15 19 a range of training and support that is provided to 16 municipal fire protection officers by the CFA. Could you 17 start with the formal training courses that are offered? 18 What are they?---The main training course that we offer to 19 municipal fire prevention officers is the MFPO course. 20 That is delivered twice a year. Last year we delivered 21 three because there was quite a lot of demand. That's 22 delivered not only to MFPOs, it is available to public 23 authorities to attend as well, because there is a 24 requirement for them to also have a fire prevention 25 officer. That course runs over three days and it includes 26 the emergency management contextualising their role. The 27 course is really based around the role of the MFPO now 28 rather than just around their wildfire duties and 29 inspections, but we still cover that as well. So it looks 30 at municipal fire prevention in general, risk management, 31 undertaking assessments in the field, house survival,

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17163 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 permits to burn, municipal fire prevention plans, 2 committees and community education. 3 The content of that course has evolved during your time as the 4 fire prevention improvement officer. Can you explain how 5 the course has changed?---Initially it was called 6 community safety in wildfire and it was really based 7 around teaching municipalities how to go out and assess 8 fuel levels and how to treat high fuel loads. It also 9 addressed things like map reading and there was some 10 information there about issuing fire prevention notices as 11 well. But I felt that it was more important for them to 12 be able to - for new people coming on board to have a 13 greater understanding of their entire role, so that's why 14 we base the course around the role of the MFPO, to really 15 help them out with certain things. We even get into 16 report writing and how to conduct meetings and be 17 effective, how to write their minutes and those important 18 things that they need to do that some people don't think 19 are that important. 20 I tendered this morning the municipal fire prevention officer 21 learning manual. Is that an accurate reflection of the 22 content of the course?---Yes. 23 You also refer to the wildfire management overlay site 24 assessment course?---Yes. 25 That Mr Fox introduced us to a few weeks ago?---That is 26 available to MFPOs if they are really sort of senior MFPOs 27 and are looking for something extra to do. I know of four 28 who have done it. It is not something we advertise to 29 them because it is targeted towards town planners and 30 other people involved in land use planning issues, but it 31 is certainly something that some MFPOs are keen to get an

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17164 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 understanding of so it is available to them if they choose 2 to do that. 3 Then there is a range of less formal training that is provided 4 which you deal with starting at paragraph 26 of your 5 statement in the nature of continuing professional 6 development?---Yes. 7 What is that training?---Over the years we had run 11 8 professional development days across the state and that 9 would be to go and assist MFPOs in certain regions with 10 covering off things like legislative changes and things 11 that were coming up that were topical at the time, best 12 practice and really getting all the guys together to 13 network and get an understanding of how they do certain 14 things, and technology has certainly been an issue that we 15 have covered off over time because we are starting to 16 computerise the way we do GIS and identify properties and 17 issue notices and things like that. So, we had a number 18 of those sessions. I guess over time we realised that 19 MFPOs and because of the best practice review really 20 needed to have their - get more of a higher profile in 21 their work, so we decided to cut those sessions down and 22 ran three large sessions over a couple of years. We 23 invited councillors and CEOs and other public authorities 24 to try and enhance people's understanding of fire 25 prevention to see if we could boost their status and give 26 them some more opportunity to do their job better. Then 27 last year we did one, a large annual one, with the MFB 28 that concentrated on urban and rural environments as well. 29 That's going to be something that we will do every year 30 now. We are due to run another one in June. 31 So last year's conference was the first attempt at a statewide

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17165 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 conference?---Yes. 2 I understand it was quite successful?---Yes. 3 And you have given us a list in paragraph 27 of the topics that 4 were covered in presentations to the conference?---Yes. 5 On top of that, our area officers run professional 6 development days for their staff as well. They do little 7 sort of mini-audit-type workshops with some groups that 8 might be coming up for audit to work through and help to 9 review plans. They do summer briefing programs. So, 10 there are numerous other things that happen in the area 11 offices through our managers of community safety as well. 12 So the day-to-day support provided by the CFA staff is provided 13 both by yourself and the fire prevention improvement 14 officer, and also by managers, community safety?---More so 15 by the managers of community safety because they are local 16 and can help them, they have good stakeholder 17 relationships. Because we have 64 municipalities to deal 18 with, our doors and phones are always ready to take their 19 calls, but they really need to be able to do their work 20 through the local officers so that everything is relevant. 21 But certainly we are there to assist them in any 22 day-to-day issues that they have as well. 23 As we understand from Mr Fox, a manager community safety might 24 have a number of municipalities within the area, and there 25 may not be complete alignment of boundaries but between 26 them they will make sure that there is one manager 27 community safety responsible for each municipality?---Yes, 28 that is right. 29 In addition to the staff that are available within the CFA, 30 there's I think a website, the fire prevention 31 network?---Yes, that's right.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17166 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 What's that?---The fire prevention network is a site that is 2 set up, it is hosted on the CFA public website, but it 3 can't be navigated to from the normal site. So it is 4 there as pretty much a one-stop shop for fire prevention 5 practitioners to be able to get all their forms and 6 schedules and all of the information from presentations, 7 updates, newsletters, things like that, so they can go 8 there and get all of the information that they need 9 whenever anything new comes up in regard to gazetted 10 things to do with the Monetary Units Act or any other bits 11 and pieces. We put that on there so they are informed of 12 different things that are going on. 13 One of the things is the newsletter which you have provided a 14 copy of attached to your statement?---Yes. 15 That's a recent measure, is it?---Yes. I have just been doing 16 information bulletins out when required because it's been 17 a field, I guess, that hasn't had a lot of change in it 18 until recent times. So, when different things come up 19 I would just send a bulletin out. But we have just 20 released a couple of guidelines through our area and we're 21 using a new look and feel and we thought it's time we 22 start to put out something on a monthly basis that looks 23 good, that grabs their attention, that gives them all of 24 the updates. We have a very long list of things that we 25 need to provide information about now, so we are just 26 steadily putting that out through the newsletter. 27 Over and above that training and the annual conference, be it a 28 smaller or larger session, and the day-to-day support 29 that's provided, is there any funding arrangement for 30 paying the salaries of municipal fire prevention 31 officers?---They are funded through the local government.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17167 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Through the councils?---Through councils, yes. 2 That comes from the council's general revenue rather than any 3 funding arrangement through the CFA?---No, the CFA don't. 4 Moving to municipal fire prevention committees, as you tell us 5 starting at paragraph 32 of your statement, these are 6 established under section 54 of the CFA Act. It is not 7 compulsory to have a municipal fire prevention committee, 8 is it?---No. 9 But most municipalities do, if not all?---Yes, all of them. 10 All of them did have committees. Two have now been 11 disbanded that I'm aware of and now have municipal fire 12 management committees running in their place. 13 Those two are Glenelg and Surf Coast?---That's correct, yes. 14 And there are a number of others such as Corangamite that we 15 will hear about later today that are in the process of 16 moving from the model that is set up under the Act to the 17 IFMP model?---Yes. 18 Do you know whether there is any legislative amendment in the 19 wings to make that transition from the current model to 20 the IFMP model?---I'm not aware of any at this point in 21 time. 22 Where there is a municipal fire prevention committee it has a 23 membership that's mandated by the CFA Act. Can you 24 outline what that is? I think you deal with this in 25 paragraph 32?---I have to remember them all off the top of 26 my head. We have a delegate from each brigade and we 27 actually have a deputy delegate as well that doesn't have 28 voting rights. There is obviously council representation, 29 a position for council and also one for the chair. There 30 is a representative from DSE, if there is a requirement 31 for it.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17168 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 If there is public land?---If public land falls within. There 2 are representatives from industry brigades, if they come 3 into play as well. Also, we have community groups, if 4 required. They are not usually a regular group, but they 5 may attend also. There are other government agencies, 6 public agencies, that may attend such as VicRoads or - - - 7 Parks Victoria?---Yes, Parks Victoria, any of the other key 8 stakeholders that are important in that particular 9 municipality. 10 And often power and water authorities or providers?---Yes. 11 But the core membership of the committee is CFA 12 representatives?---(Witness nods.) 13 And there is a requirement for a representative from each CFA 14 brigade in the municipality?---(Witness nods.) 15 That can become a little unwieldy at times, can it not?---Yes. 16 We have witnesses this morning; Mr Farmer has 15 CFA brigades 17 in his municipality and Mr Kittel has 43. What is the 18 largest number of brigades in a municipality that you have 19 to deal with?---I'm not sure what the largest is, but I'm 20 aware that Yarra Ranges have 78. 21 So clearly that's more like a conference than a committee?---A 22 big meeting. They actually split it into three because it 23 takes four hours to drive from one end of Yarra Ranges to 24 the other end as well, so we need to make meetings 25 accessible to our people and so they run three separate 26 meetings. 27 The delegate to the municipal fire prevention committee is 28 chosen by the brigades themselves?---That's correct, 29 through an election process, or through a direct 30 appointment. 31 You also in your statement mention regional fire prevention

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17169 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 committees?---Yes. 2 Can you tell us what they are and what the status of those is? 3 It is another area in transition, as I understand?---Yes. 4 The regional fire prevention committees are something 5 that's reasonably old now. A lot of them were disbanded a 6 lot of years ago when we had the amalgamations of 7 councils, because it was seen that we were duplicating a 8 lot of our resources in the municipal and in the regional 9 committees, and that when the amalgamations occurred some 10 of the municipalities were actually sort of the right size 11 so there was no real requirement to have them a lot of the 12 time, so some of them stayed and some of them went. But 13 just at the moment IFMP has set up regional fire 14 management planning committees and those committees are 15 set up across the state in regional areas with all of the 16 key stakeholders involved. So that's fully transitioned 17 as far as I'm aware. 18 What are the boundaries for regions? Are they CFA regions or 19 some other region within the IFMP framework?---Actually, 20 sorry, they're not regions, they're areas. They are based 21 around - actually, I'm not sure. My understanding was 22 that they were based around regions, but I think they 23 might be areas because the alignment process that we are 24 going through at the moment because of Fairer Victoria 25 places a general manager at each. The general manager is 26 the chair of the area. So that's one that I might have to 27 get back to you on because I'm not entirely - - - 28 I get a sense it is not within your day-to-day knowledge?---No. 29 An important task of the municipal fire prevention committee is 30 to give advice and make recommendations about the 31 municipal fire prevention plan. You have attached to your

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17170 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 statement guidelines that have been prepared by the CFA 2 for putting together a municipal fire prevention plan and 3 giving councils an idea of how it will be audited. 4 I would just like you, if you would, to outline - there is 5 a five-stage process set out in the guidelines for putting 6 together a plan. Could you outline that for us? I think 7 this is in annexure 5 to your statement?---I'm having 8 trouble finding it, sorry. 9 It starts at - - -?---The process. 10 That's right?---The five-stage process is that the 11 municipalities would go through preliminary activities and 12 those preliminary activities would involve getting the 13 people together, getting the stakeholders on board, 14 finding out what all the data is that they would need to 15 consider, census data, fire data, all sorts of information 16 to try and collate to start to put things together. They 17 need to establish their visions and their goals and pretty 18 much set up the context. That's really something that's 19 commenced obviously prior to sitting down and doing the 20 work. The next stage is assess the risk and identify the 21 different management approaches. So MFPCs, usually a 22 subcommittee, will go through a process where they will 23 work through a risk management approach and use a matrix 24 in regard to likelihood and consequence and try and 25 determine or prioritise their risks and which ones are 26 most important for treatment. Then they will go through a 27 treatment toolbox and then try and work out what are the 28 most appropriate treatments to address that level of risk. 29 That's just a rough sort of idea of how that works. Then 30 they go through - the stage three is those programs of how 31 are we going to roll out these treatment programs, what

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17171 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 needs to be done first, what can wait, what do we have 2 resources for to actually deliver, what do we need to go 3 and get grants or try and get extra funding for, and to 4 set up those parts in the plan that talk about when things 5 are going to be delivered. Then obviously the draft is 6 created, it is put out for consultation, it is adopted 7 through the MFPC and endorsed by council and then that's 8 pretty much the process done. Then we go through an 9 implementation and review-type process whereby councils on 10 an annual basis will go through and review and report 11 against what they've been doing. 12 These guidelines were first developed in 1997?---That's right. 13 And they were revised in 2003 in line with recommendations made 14 in the best practice review?---Yes. 15 Have they been revised since then?---No, they haven't. 16 One thing that occurs to me reading through them is that there 17 is no reference in here to the Victorian fire risk 18 register, which is clearly a very useful tool for 19 municipal fire prevention planning. Is it proposed that 20 these guidelines will include reference to the VFRR?---At 21 this point in time it won't. VFRR is still very new. It 22 is just still being rolled out across the state. Whilst 23 we have definitely considered adding all of that into a 24 guideline, I think the timing is pretty poor for us to do 25 that because IFMP are just working on a draft at the 26 moment, a guideline to help people through a process. So 27 I think it's more appropriate that it sits with IFMP to 28 build that into a new process rather than leaving it in 29 the old one. But VFRR is very much a similar tool to the 30 process that what we go through normally in a normal 31 process. It is just that it is put into a geographical

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17172 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 state and there is a little bit more analysis. 2 So really we can't expect to see another revision of these 3 guidelines because what we are working towards is a new 4 set of guidelines for municipal fire management planning 5 under the IFMP project?---Yes, that's correct. 6 Can I ask you about the degree of involvement that your team, 7 so you and the fire prevention improvement officer, have 8 with the IFMP project?---We don't actually have a lot to 9 do with it. The IFMP project is set up as a state 10 government program, although it is hosted by CFA. So we 11 hold the money but we don't - we are another stakeholder 12 in that process. At the moment we don't have a lot of 13 input. I have recently been asked to be on an 14 implementation committee to assist with that. Now and 15 then we get to review different documents and things, but 16 there isn't a lot of contact with IFMP. 17 So there's not a close integration between your work in 18 municipal fire prevention and the integrated fire 19 management project?---Not at this point in time, no. 20 Is there scope for closer involvement or closer 21 integration?---Yes, definitely. I think now we are 22 getting into the point where the framework and everything 23 has been built with IFMP, we can now start and we are 24 starting to look - CFA are working on transitional 25 arrangements, papers for the MFPC to the fire management 26 committees. So we are starting to do that work, but 27 I think before there may not have been that much 28 requirement to have a really close relationship because 29 they were still trying to work in a new area, where we 30 were trying to support the old area. So now we are 31 starting to see that there is scope for us to get together

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17173 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 a bit more often now. 2 Because it is clear, is it not, that the change to IFMP, 3 setting up of municipal fire management planning 4 committees, the development of the municipal fire 5 management plan, will involve very significant changes for 6 the municipal fire prevention officers who you are 7 assisting?---Yes, absolutely. But there are only two of 8 us in our unit and there's a hell of a lot of other people 9 in CFA working on this as well. So I expect that we will 10 have more closer involvement into the future, but other 11 areas have had more involvement prior. 12 Just returning to the municipal fire prevention committees, can 13 you give us some clarity about the extent of the 14 committee's area of responsibility? Does it extend into 15 public land in the municipality?---No. Section 54 only 16 talks about the country area of Victoria. Public 17 authorities and other areas in regard to federal 18 government that might own land in regard to airports and 19 army bases and things like that and also DSE with public 20 protected land, they don't fall into the realms of the 21 responsibilities of the MFPC because they just look after 22 country Victoria. But of course as key stakeholders 23 within that municipal district they are invited to attend 24 and are expected to attend and participate. 25 That is why we will often see in a municipal fire prevention 26 plan the DSE fire prevention plan as an annexure to the 27 municipal plan?---Yes, that's right. Sometimes it is just 28 referenced. It may not necessarily be attached. I think 29 that is the idea of IFMPs, obviously, to gather all of 30 those things together and put them in one place so that it 31 is actually fully integrated rather than just refers off

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17174 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 to other things. 2 If I can move now to the audit of municipal fire prevention 3 plans. This is something that you have done a number of 4 times during your time with the CFA?---Yes. 5 Can you outline what the audit criteria are for a municipal 6 fire prevention plan and the performance indicators that 7 are used?---Sure. The best thing is to probably look at 8 that audit decision tool which I have at the back. 9 Which is annexure 6. (WIT.3004.040.0347)?---This is the tool 10 that we use to go through and assess whether a council 11 meets audit or not. We actually send this out to council 12 and we have it on the MFPO course. It is a very open 13 process so that everybody knows what's expected of them 14 and what they need to do prior to us arriving. So 15 obviously the audit criteria there is that a plan exists, 16 that it is maintained, that it accords generally with the 17 advice and recommendations of the MFPC, that it identifies 18 areas and buildings and land uses at risk, and how it 19 specifies the risk to be treated and also who is 20 responsible for treating those risks, and the performance 21 indicators to the side in regard to what we are looking 22 for and the actual evidence that we need is followed up on 23 the following pages. 24 How is an audit actually performed? Does it involve a visit to 25 the council?---Yes. It is very important that we go out 26 to councils because we don't get to see them all the time. 27 So that keeps our relationship up with them and keeps our 28 hand in and understanding what their issues are and what 29 their needs are and how we can assist them further. So to 30 me it acts as going and getting the audit completed but 31 also an opportunity to catch up. So we go out to every

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17175 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 municipality over three years. It is a casual process. 2 We don't like to be scary and overwhelming for people, 3 because "audit" sounds like a pretty scary word. So we 4 send them out a visit pack explaining exactly what it is 5 that we are going to do on the day and we give them this 6 decision tool. I always tell them to go through the 7 decision tool and tick it all off. "If you can't tick 8 anything off, call me before we come because we are more 9 than happy to work through some of the issues." It is a 10 quality audit. It is not, "We're going to catch you out 11 and then roast you because you got it wrong." So on the 12 day we go out and work through all of the evidence to 13 ensure that they have got it all right. 14 In your experience have you ever had to fail a council or say, 15 "Sorry, this plan just doesn't meet the audit 16 criteria"?---Yes, definitely. 17 What were the concerns in those instances?---The main reason 18 why most councils will fail is because they don't keep 19 their plan up to date or accurate. So it doesn't meet 20 that it is maintained; that it is not current and it is 21 not up to date. So there are generally a lot of 22 outstanding things on it. It is obvious from the MFPC 23 minutes that they haven't taken it regularly to the 24 committee to ask them if everything is still going okay or 25 if any amendments need to be made. There might be some - 26 hopefully not anymore - references to NRE or things like 27 that that stick out and say, "This is really old and you 28 are not keeping it up to date." So it is just a basic 29 administrative issue that can be overcome. But I think it 30 is one of those things that, councils are time poor and 31 have constraints, they can overlook it.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17176 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 From what you have explained about the process of the audit and 2 the criteria, I understand that it doesn't extend to an 3 evaluation of whether the plan in fact identifies all of 4 the significant fire risks in the municipality?---It goes 5 through the audit criteria. It talks about identifying 6 areas, buildings, land use at risk. 7 But you don't yourself go out around the municipality and check 8 off what they have identified in the plan against what you 9 assess the risks to actually be?---No. 10 And nor is there an assessment of the effectiveness of the 11 treatments that have been specified in the plan. As long 12 as the plan specifies a treatment, that's sufficient to 13 meet the audit criteria?---That's right. So we don't 14 audit implementation of the plan. 15 Nor is there an evaluation of whether the people who have been 16 specified as responsible for implementing the treatments 17 are the right people or the best group of people to do 18 that?---I think these are all things that are included at 19 the municipal fire prevention committee, and these are the 20 people at the local level who know their area and know 21 their risks and know who the relevant people are to treat 22 the risks. They put their hands up and say that they are 23 going to do those jobs. So it is difficult for me to 24 check to see if they are the right people. We could audit 25 implementation, but I don't think that there is a position 26 for the State to come in and question whether those people 27 are actually doing the job or whether we have chosen the 28 right people or whether they have chosen the right risk. 29 That's very difficult because they are local people with 30 local knowledge. 31 I also understand that there's no requirement for consistency

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17177 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 between municipalities. They are very much left to do it 2 in their own way in their own words?---Yes, very much so. 3 It is a municipal fire prevention plan. It is their plan. 4 They can do it how they like, providing that they meet 5 obviously the legislative requirements. There is a big 6 variety of plans. Some of them I will go and there are 7 180 pages and they drill down into every little reserve 8 and every building and everything, and others will keep it 9 as a high-level strategic type plan. So they are all very 10 different. But as long as they meet the criteria in the 11 legislation then they are okay. 12 Are you aware whether there are audit criteria being developed 13 for municipal fire management plans?---No, I'm not. That 14 would require a change in legislation. We are actually 15 doing a review at the moment on our audit criteria because 16 of the inclusion of the neighbourhood safer places. So 17 that's under way at the moment. 18 COMMISSIONER PASCOE: Just before we leave that, Ms Richards, 19 I'm interested in the approach that you have taken to the 20 audit and wonder in effect whether it is more of an 21 assessment or an evaluation. Typically the term "audit" 22 has associated with it forensic analysis, whereas you are 23 really describing an approach that seeks not to instill 24 fear and, as I understand you, to take at face value 25 what's reported to you in your visits by the municipal 26 fire prevention officer. So it is really a question 27 whether any thought has been given to perhaps classifying 28 that as an assessment or an evaluation or something of 29 that sort and then perhaps every X years auditing 30 X per cent in a full audit capacity?---The legislation 31 requires us to audit every three years. So you are saying

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17178 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 that we should keep an eye on them a little bit more 2 closely in regards to on an annual basis as such and then 3 audit? 4 It is more a sense of whether this is an audit in the strict 5 sense of the word. Occasionally entities take the 6 approach that is both mindful of where, if you like, 7 authority and responsibility lie, and in this case with 8 the municipality, but you have the authority to oversight 9 that, and that rather than provide too onerous monitoring 10 that they might audit, as in a forensic audit, perhaps 11 10 per cent or five per cent on an annual basis, but it is 12 a deep audit, it is not the kind of audit that you are 13 carrying out at the moment?---I think the reason why we 14 call it "audit" is because we see it as being a quality 15 audit, similar to that that WorkCover do on sites and 16 things like that. So, in the event that they don't 17 actually meet the requirements, then we provide deficiency 18 reporting. So, rather than a forensic sort of report, it 19 is a quality type auditing process. It has worked 20 reasonably well to date, but I think there is probably 21 scope to improve it, particularly, as you are saying, in 22 digging in deeper and starting to have a look at the 23 implementation of some of the treatments and making sure 24 that those options are appropriate and that they are 25 working and being applied. 26 Because you certainly appear to have an approach of partnership 27 and support?---Absolutely. 28 Rather than compliance and enforcement, if you like?---Yes. 29 However, if they don't comply they know about it and get 30 the job done. But we are certainly not an organisation 31 that is into full enforcement and we would rather try and

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17179 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 work together and get things done properly rather than 2 throw the book at everyone. It doesn't create for good 3 relationships into the future. 4 I note that you do provide the audit reports to the CFA 5 board?---That's correct. 6 So they are taken seriously?---Yes. 7 Has there been any instance where the board has provided, 8 through you or others, commentary back?---No, not usually. 9 It is usually something that's just accepted and they wait 10 for the next one. So we do it every six months. There 11 have been times when we have sought direction in regard to 12 some councils that have not complied. 13 MS RICHARDS: As you have mentioned a couple of times, there is 14 no power to audit implementation of the plan?---Correct. 15 And hence no ability to assess the effectiveness of the 16 treatments that have been specified in the plan?---That's 17 right. 18 This was a matter that was picked up in the best practice 19 review in 2002?---Yes. 20 Which is the next subject I would like to ask you about. The 21 best practice review is annexure 8 to Ms Thompson's 22 statement, starting at witness page 0366. I understand 23 that you joined the CFA after this review had been 24 undertaken but not long after?---That's right, yes. 25 And you have been closely involved with a number of the 26 improvements that have been made following the 27 review?---Probably not in the early days, because that was 28 the fire planning coordinator's role to look after that. 29 But I'm aware of what occurred, yes. 30 Part of your work in the early years was attending these 11 31 sessions around the state, explaining what was in the best

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17180 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 practice review and what changes would be made as a 2 result?---Yes. 3 Can you do that for us now, give us an outline of what the key 4 findings were of the review?---Yes, sure. The review 5 reviewed municipal fire prevention planning in regard to 6 processes and its supporting structures, such as the 7 training and MFPCs and how they operated and the functions 8 of MFPOs, and also looked at how we would go into the 9 future managing and implementing plans. The report 10 addressed a number of issues regarding the uptake of the 11 guidelines, because the guidelines had just been 12 introduced in 1997, and also the first audit that was done 13 in 2001. It also looked at the alignment of CFA business 14 planning and municipal fire prevention plans, the 15 integration of other stakeholders in fire prevention 16 planning, the functioning of the MFPCs, different planning 17 cycles, and audit criteria or lack of it. At that point 18 in time there was no audit criteria established. So 19 I think the main things that come out of the document that 20 I spoke a lot to the MFPOs was the position of the MFPO 21 and that the best practice review said they needed to be a 22 senior manager that had the opportunity to make decisions 23 and had hold of the purse strings, as such, and could get 24 stuff done; and also the status of MFPCs in regard to 25 their make-up, because of those overwieldy type committee 26 meetings, the difficulties of running them, the fact that 27 stakeholders weren't too happy about turning up when they 28 had so many CFA people in attendance. 29 So if you have one DSE representative and 25 CFA 30 representatives it's not always a happy 31 combination?---Yes, and a little bit daunting for council

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17181 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 as well, sometimes even to have a whole range of CFA 2 personnel turn up and maybe give them a barrage about 3 other issues outside fire prevention as well, because that 4 was a common thing that was discussed. So it wasn't a 5 fantastic working arrangement. So we have tried to help 6 them out by putting different things in place to help 7 solve some of those things, but still working within the 8 legislative constraints that we have. 9 So a need to boost the status of the municipal fire prevention 10 officer, a need to streamline the constitution of the 11 municipal fire prevention committee and pay attention to 12 its workings?---Yes. 13 There was also a focus on the need for integration with other 14 stakeholders, was there not?---Yes. 15 And that was a particularly important focus?---Yes. 16 Need for integration with other stakeholders and also 17 integration between municipal fire prevention and the 18 CFA's own business plan?---Yes, that's right. 19 There were also some findings about the need to review the 20 guidelines and develop audit criteria?---Yes. 21 In your statement you outline how the recommendations have been 22 acted upon by the CFA. This is starting at paragraph 60 23 of your statement?---Yes. 24 The first recommendation was a recommendation about reviewing 25 and rewriting the guidelines. Has that occurred?---Yes, 26 that's the 2003 version that we are working with at the 27 moment. 28 So that's the version we have just been looking at?---Yes, 29 that's right. 30 Then the next recommendation, recommendation 2, is that the 31 guidelines should be reinforced by the development of a

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17182 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 set of clear criteria for audit, and that's again what you 2 have just referred us to?---Yes. 3 There is then a recommendation, recommendation 3, for 4 additional audit powers that would allow implementation to 5 be audited as well as the actual existence and content of 6 the plan?---Yes. 7 What's the progress with that recommendation?---We did go 8 through a process where we did some review in regard to 9 the legislation. That was put up to the board and there 10 wasn't anything that came back in regard to that. 11 Was there a recommendation that legislative change was needed 12 to give the CFA those audit powers?---Yes, and at that 13 point in time I think IFMP was on the cards, and so it was 14 one of those things that sort of was, "That will deal with 15 that," so that's why it hasn't been done to this point 16 because we are still waiting for that process. 17 So your understanding is that the addition of audit powers that 18 would enable implementation to be audited has been bundled 19 up with the IFMP project?---Yes. 20 Recommendation 4 deals with implementation of the revised 21 guidelines supported by the identification and supply of 22 appropriate training. What's occurred under that 23 heading?---The guidelines that were developed come out and 24 you will see at the back there are fire service guidelines 25 as well. This occurred while I was actually working at 26 the . So I recall Len coming out and 27 delivering these sessions to me while I was doing the fire 28 prevention officer position. They gave us a folder with 29 all of the fire service guidelines in it and with the 30 guideline in it and ran awareness sessions to ensure that 31 everybody was familiar with what the guidelines were about

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17183 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 and how they worked. So, yes, there is quite a 2 substantial amount of information in those fire service 3 guidelines. The idea of that folder was that it sat at 4 each council and every time we had meetings and gave them 5 information we had a whole stack of divisions in there and 6 they would build up a municipal fire prevention planning 7 kit to help them through with their planning processes. 8 Then recommendation 5 was picked up in the revision of the 9 guidelines back in 2003. If I can ask you about 10 recommendation 7 as well. That related to the development 11 of support tools to enable business planning at area level 12 to include community needs?---Yes, that's right. 13 What's been developed there?---An external services agreement 14 was developed. I don't know why it is called an 15 agreement, because it is actually a big database of all 16 our treatment programs that we run. It links our business 17 planning and our treatments to municipal fire prevention 18 plans at our area level. So our manager of community 19 safety looks after that external service delivery and 20 council widgets and programs of what we are delivering and 21 we report on that on a quarterly basis. 22 Does that just deal with the community safety aspects of the 23 operation or also operational work that CFA brigades might 24 undertake, for example in - - - ?---It is only the 25 community safety stuff. 26 Community safety?---Yes. 27 Then there are a large number of the recommendations that have 28 been deferred to the implementation of the integrated fire 29 management project?---Yes. 30 And those are 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12?---Yes. 31 Then we have recommendation 13, which concerns the allocation

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17184 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 of resources by municipalities to ensure that staff are 2 trained and have what they need to do the municipal fire 3 prevention officer work. What's been done to implement 4 that recommendation?---As my statement says, CFA doesn't 5 have the power to advice council on how to spend their 6 funds. So that was a recommendation that was in for us. 7 But I don't believe that it is our responsibility. 8 However, we obviously try and advocate wherever we can to 9 ensure that our MFPOs are at a level that can do the job 10 according to the level of risk. We provide the municipal 11 fire prevention officers course. We have modified it to a 12 point where we have made it extremely affordable for 13 councils. It was quite an expensive course. So we have 14 opened that up to be able to get everybody along to do 15 that. Obviously through those seminars and sessions we 16 invite councillors and CEOs and also all of the excellent 17 work that our managers of community safety do out in the 18 field with those higher ranking officers at councils, 19 I think that we can reasonably say that we assisted in 20 getting some of those full-time MFPO positions up. So 21 that's sort of a number of things that we have done to try 22 and get councils to operate at a level that is right. 23 So there has been a good deal of training and in kind support 24 provided by the CFA, but as far as you are aware no 25 additional funding to councils to boost the status of the 26 MFPO within the council?---No, although I'm aware that 27 after the last fire season the MAV did provide grants to 28 assist municipalities in doing some of their work. 29 What was the source of that funds? Was it from 30 government?---I think it was a state government grant that 31 was given to local government and then they used it

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17185 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 to - I know that Mr Farmer has taken up some time as part 2 of that grant process to be able to do his neighbourhood 3 safer places in his township protection plan. So there 4 has been some money available, but it was only due to the 5 circumstances of last year. 6 Did that relate specifically to neighbourhood safer 7 places?---I think that it was municipal fire prevention 8 and those sorts of - just be to able to support 9 municipalities. They would put in an application and it 10 would be granted. I'm not sure who handled the actual 11 grants process, but I'm aware there was some funding. 12 Dr Lyon is here for the Municipal Association of Victoria and 13 I expect that he will ask you some questions about that in 14 not too long. There is just one other matter I would like 15 to ask you about, Ms Thompson, before I sit down for a 16 little while, and that relates to the involvement of 17 municipal fire prevention committees in the development of 18 township protection plans, which is something that you 19 have addressed starting at paragraph 77 of your statement. 20 Who is the responsible agency for development of township 21 protection plans?---I believe that it is CFA. 22 Within the operations directorate?---That's correct. 23 And Mr Hayes has already outlined this to us in some 24 detail?---Yes. 25 But what I would ask you to explain is what involvement, if 26 any, municipal fire prevention committees have in the 27 development of township protection plans?---A question 28 that I got was an explanation of the involvement of MFPCs 29 in the development and the relationship. I think the 30 relationship is an interesting one, firstly, because 31 township protection plans are very much a preparedness

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17186 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 type program. However, they do have a part 3 in it that 2 talks about fire prevention measures. I think it is 3 something that sits reasonably firmly within the emergency 4 management landscape because they do cover preparedness 5 off better than our preventative stuff that we do, which 6 is why I think the MFPC haven't been consulted widely. 7 I haven't put it out there and asked everybody the 8 question. But my understanding is that obviously we had 9 52 priority townships that we need to address very quickly 10 and there was probably not a hell of a lot of consultation 11 with the MFPCs. However, the information has been taken 12 for that part 3 from the municipal fire prevention plans 13 that have been created in accordance with the advice and 14 recommendations of the MFPC. So I believe from that 15 perspective they may not have individually addressed the 16 group but they have the sentiments in them because of what 17 was included in the fire prevention plans in the first 18 place. I know that obviously into the future there will 19 be greater consultation processes with the other township 20 protection plans. But at that point in time there was a 21 lot of pressure to get those completed before the fire 22 season. 23 Thank you, Ms Thompson. Commissioners, are there any questions 24 at this time? 25 CHAIRMAN: I think we might take a break and then come back and 26 deal with questions. 27 (Short adjournment.) 28 MS RICHARDS: Dr Lyon has some questions and I understand 29 Ms Foley does too. 30 COMMISSIONER PASCOE: Just before Dr Lyon, I was interested and 31 I'm not sure whether you can help me with this,

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17187 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Ms Thompson, but you talk in paragraph 76 about the 2 process under way to align - I'm just making sure I have 3 the right spot - sorry, 74, the brigade and group 4 boundaries with municipal boundaries?---Yes. 5 I understand that that's not universally welcomed as an 6 initiative?---I thought I got away with that question. It 7 is actually not my area of expertise, so I will do my 8 best. I think that it's not - I think everybody wants to 9 work towards aligning boundaries any way we can because it 10 obviously allows for better service delivery and we're 11 talking to the right people at the right time. So, it is 12 important that we do any sort of boundary alignment that 13 we can. But in my operational experience it is obvious 14 that you can't align a brigade boundary. If there is a 15 service delivery need and a brigade is placed in a 16 township and it is right on the edge of a municipality, 17 then there is issues with trying to align our turnout and 18 assignment areas and things like that with that boundary. 19 So, I think brigades are certainly something that where we 20 can we do, and certainly there are problems with radio 21 communications and things like that if you have to change 22 over to different areas and things, so where possible we 23 would do that but it is not always possible so that's not 24 done. 25 In regard to group boundaries, in 2004 26 I understand that we looked at trying to move towards a 27 catchment process where our old groups that were based 28 around a certain amount of brigades expanded out to cover 29 the municipal boundaries. So that was something that was 30 done in the Westernport area in particular. Yarra area 31 took it up and I'm aware there are a couple of other

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17188 THOMPSON XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 places here and there, but it wasn't something that was 2 taken up across the state and I'm not sure what reason 3 that didn't occur for. But in regard to area alignment we 4 are in the process of doing that now and I think the 5 organisation are probably pretty proud with the position 6 we are at because we've finally got to a state where we 7 are going to align with the DHS boundaries and we are 8 going to have that done by 1 July 2010. So we will have 9 eight areas instead of nine and we will be talking to all 10 of the same government people in each area, so that will 11 be good, too. 12 I think it is inevitable sometimes that, if people have 13 traditionally worked in a particular area and there is a 14 logic and a set of existing relationships, that moving to 15 other boundaries that might have their own administrative 16 logic are not always seen as logical or sensible on the 17 ground?---Yes, and there's also - there are matters such 18 as the that fall over, things that we can't 19 control because of the environment, so it's not always 20 going to be exactly right, but we can get closer to 21 getting it right. 22

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17189 THOMPSON XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS FOLEY 1 statement, that would be helpful. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes, part of 832. Yes, Dr Lyon. 3

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17190 THOMPSON XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 DR LYON: The grant was made from the state government to the 2 MAV. 3 CHAIRMAN: But MAV then determined how that would be 4 apportioned in a way that hopefully meant for the most 5 appropriate use across the councils of Victoria of that 6 money. 7 DR LYON: Yes, sir, but specifically in relation to fire 8 prevention duties and the roll-out of NSPs and TPPs. So, 9 that deals with that. The second point is a fairly simple 10 one. The obligation imposed on the CFA under the CFA Act 11 to audit is only an obligation to audit the councils for 12 the MFPP; is that right?---That's correct, yes. 13 There is no audit requirement or power for the CFA to audit 14 other firefighting agencies?---No. 15 So the concentration of the audit is only on the obligations 16 imposed under the CFA Act in relation to councils and the 17 implementation and maintenance of an MFPP?---That's 18 correct. Sorry, not in regard to the implementation. 19 Sorry, not the implementation because they all have them, but 20 the maintenance and update of the MFPP?---That's correct. 21 MS RICHARDS: There is nothing arising. May Ms Thompson be 22 excused? 23 CHAIRMAN: Indeed. Thank you, Ms Thompson. 24 <(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 25 MS RICHARDS: The next witness is Darryl Farmer, the municipal 26 fire prevention officer for Alpine shire. I call 27 Mr Farmer. 28

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17191 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 ranger for Alpine Shire Council and you work from the 2 council's offices in Bright?---That's correct. 3 With the assistance of the lawyers for the council and the 4 Municipal Association of Victoria, have you prepared a 5 statement for the Commission?---I have. 6 Have you got a copy there?---I have. 7 Have you reviewed it recently?---Yes. 8 Are there any changes you would like to make?---No. 9 Is it true and correct?---It is. 10 #EXHIBIT 833 - Witness statement of Darryl Keith Farmer dated 11 24 March 2010 plus five attachments (WIT.4025.001.0001) to 12 (WIT.4025.001.0238). 13 MS RICHARDS: Mr Farmer, I would like to start by asking you to 14 introduce us to the shire of Alpine. Could you tell us 15 where it is and how large it is?---Yes. The Alpine shire 16 is situated approximately 300 kilometres north-east of 17 Melbourne, approximately 70 kilometres south of 18 Albury-Wodonga. It is just under 5,000 square kilometres 19 and out of that area 92 per cent of it is actually public 20 land, so it is Crown land, Parks Victoria, national parks 21 et cetera, state forests. So only 8 per cent of the total 22 area in the Alpine shire is actually rateable land. 23 The major townships in the shire are Mount Beauty, Myrtleford 24 and Bright?---Bright, yes. 25 And it incorporates, as you mentioned, a number of national 26 parks including Mount Buffalo National Park?---Yes, that's 27 correct. 28 And also within the shire but not administered by the shire are 29 some ski resorts?---Yes. Falls Creek and are 30 located within the shire, but they are not part of the 31 Alpine shire. They are part of the Alpine Resorts

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17192 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Commission. 2 Can I ask you a little about the size of the council's 3 operation. About how many employees does the council 4 have?---It would be approximately, full-time employees, 5 approximately 70. 6 Are you able to tell us the council's annual operating 7 budget?---I'm not aware of that, no, not the whole budget. 8 Perhaps Dr Lyon can provide that information later on. As for 9 your own position within the council, you are both the 10 senior ranger and the municipal fire prevention officer. 11 What are the range of duties that you have in your 12 work?---My work involves administering all local laws and 13 also looking after obviously parking enforcement as well, 14 also animals as far as the council-owned and run pound and 15 various Acts involved, like the Domestic (Feral and 16 Nuisance) Animals Act. I also look after school crossing 17 supervisors, the training of those, so yes, it is a varied 18 position. 19 Where do you sit in the council reporting hierarchy?---There is 20 the CEO, my manager and then myself as senior ranger. 21 Where in the council is the municipal emergency response 22 officer?---He is a manager, so he is above myself, the 23 MERO. 24 Your manager or a different - - -?---A different manager. 25 You mention in your statement that you have an assistant 26 municipal fire prevention officer?---Yes. 27 And for the last fire season you had a second assistant?---Yes. 28 How did that come to be?---That come through the funding that 29 the MAV provided the Alpine shire and from that funding we 30 were able to employ a part-time ranger over the fire 31 season and then I was able to dedicate more of my time to

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17193 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 fire prevention duties. 2 In a normal fire season, insofar as there is such a thing, what 3 proportion of your time is spent on municipal fire 4 prevention duties as opposed to the range of other things 5 you are responsible for?---During the fire season it would 6 be approximately 70 per cent of my time. Throughout the 7 whole year I would say 20 per cent. So, outside of the 8 fire season it is a lot less, but during the fire season, 9 normal fire season, it is 70 per cent, but with this year 10 with the funding I was able to put a lot more time into 11 it. 12 So were you essentially full-time over the last fire 13 season?---Pretty much full-time, yes. 14 I will ask you now, if I can, about the municipal fire 15 prevention committee that exists within Alpine shire. You 16 deal with this starting at paragraph 45 of your statement. 17 I would like to go to paragraph 46. You have a number of 18 CFA brigades in the shire. How many?---Fifteen CFA 19 brigades. 20 They divide naturally into the two valleys that we find in the 21 Alpine shire?---Yes. The main committee consists of the 22 lot, but then we have a separate committee, the Ovens and 23 Kiewa brigades groups, so they are the two separate parts 24 and they are run separately in conjunction with the main 25 committee. 26 So the constitution of your committee consists of yourself and 27 you chair the meetings?---Yes, that's correct. 28 And there is the mayor?---Yes. 29 And your municipal surveyor and your assistant, and then you 30 have a range of CFA representation both from the brigade 31 level and the two groups within the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17194 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 municipality?---(Witness nods.) 2 What other organisations are represented on the 3 committee?---Obviously the DSE and we have a lot of pine 4 plantations up in the Alpine shire, so there is a 5 representative from the pine plantation industry and then 6 the power companies and water authorities are also on that 7 committee. That's the majority of them. 8 You mention also Mr Lawlor from DSE?---Yes, that's correct. 9 How often does the full committee meet?---The full committee 10 meets generally once per year, and then as I said the 11 Ovens and Kiewa committees meet once per year also. The 12 full committee meets at the end of April and then we have 13 the other sub-branches meeting prior to the upcoming fire 14 season, usually in October. 15 You set out for us in paragraphs 49 and 50 the constitution of 16 the subgroups, the Kiewa and Ovens Valley fire brigade 17 groups. I would like to go now to the Alpine shire 18 municipal fire prevention plan which is attachment 3 to 19 your statement. Can you outline for us in broad terms how 20 the plan is structured?---It is structured in a way that 21 it sets out the goals of the strategy, in other words what 22 the Alpine shire is trying to get from the council's 23 municipal fire prevention plan. So, the goal of the 24 strategy has provided for the safer community in which to 25 live, work and visit, so that's the main goal. It is not 26 an overriding document overriding the local brigades' 27 documents or the DSE documents. The majority use it for 28 council, and for councils so we know exactly what work we 29 are going to program on fire prevention and who is going 30 to do the work. It outlines all of those issues as well. 31 Then you go through the objectives, outline the various

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17195 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 organisations that are interested. There is an overview 2 of the conditions in the municipality and then you come in 3 part 6 to priority risk strategies, programs and actions, 4 which is the real substance of the plan?---Yes, that's 5 right. 6 What I would ask you to do, Mr Farmer, is to take us to I think 7 three of the priority risks that have been identified and 8 just explain what the risk is, how it has been identified, 9 what approach has been agreed upon, the strategies of the 10 treatments that have been specified and who is responsible 11 for implementing them, starting, if you would, with towns. 12 This is on witness page 0054 or page 19 of the plan?---So, 13 the risks and strategies for the townships, obviously the 14 risk is property loss and loss of personal effects and 15 human life. The objective is to minimise the loss. The 16 treatment programs, it sets out what council should do, 17 the responsibility for a lot of that is council's. So 18 that can be undertake property inspections under section 19 41 of the CFA Act, issue fire prevention notices to 20 owner/occupiers of property that contains a potential fire 21 hazard. 22 Just so we can align what you are talking about with what is on 23 the screen, I think you are looking at the table on the 24 following page to what is on the screen?---yes. Do you 25 want me to read off the screen? 26 I just want to get the screen showing what you are looking at. 27 If we can look at the next page, please?---Some of the 28 risks may be fire plugs, which is a council obligation to 29 maintain, so one risk is that their fire plugs are not 30 covered so we have to ensure that all fire plugs are fully 31 operable and located and identified, and the treatment

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17196 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 program is to actually locate and identify and inspect all 2 fire plugs. Under that one, the responsibility is the 3 brigades', so the actual local brigades do a lot of the 4 inspections of the fire plugs and they notify me of any 5 repairs that are required to be undertaken and I organise 6 those repairs to be undertaken either by the water 7 authority or by a licensed plumber. Under timeframe, fire 8 plugs is an ongoing one, so that's a yearly one. As far 9 as inspections of the properties, that's usually October 10 onwards during the fire season. We do inspections of all 11 private properties in the Alpine shire. 12 All private properties?---We try and get to all of them. We 13 inspect all vacant land in the Alpine shire and, private, 14 we drive up and down the roads, in the townships, every 15 road and inspect from the front. We obviously don't go 16 looking over everyone's back fence to see how long the 17 grass is, but we do inspect from the front and we also 18 follow up on any complaints. The majority of complaints 19 in regards to people's properties, we obviously have to go 20 and inspect over the back of the property as well, do a 21 full inspection on the property. 22 So there is both a drive-by program?---Yes. 23 Does it concentrate on the towns or is it throughout?---We 24 concentrate on the towns and also any other areas that we 25 believe are issues, and part of the process is working 26 with the local CFA brigades because they live and work in 27 those areas. So, they report to myself if they believe 28 there are issues as far as fire prevention go and if they 29 believe that follow-up work is required they will contact 30 me and I will go and inspect those areas. 31 These risks are identified in very sort of broad general terms.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17197 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Where are the risks located within the municipality? Is it 2 the three major towns that are identified?---Not only the 3 three major towns. There are a lot of other smaller 4 towns, for instance Wandiligong, Harrietville, Tawonga, 5 Tawonga South, Dederang, so there are a lot of smaller 6 townships as well. The bigger townships obviously are 7 heavily populated, but the smaller ones might only be as 8 small as 50 or 60 properties in the area, but they are 9 also inspected and I work closely with the CFA brigade 10 captains in regards to those as well. 11 If we could just go back to the previous page, witness page 12 0054. At the end of the first paragraph there, there is 13 an issue identified: "Random residential development of 14 the towns has created pockets of vegetation within the 15 residential areas. This is further complicated by the 16 high rainfall and associated rapid vegetation growth." Is 17 there a treatment specified in the plan to address that 18 issue?---As far as on council land or roadsides, we slash 19 regularly during the fire season. For instance, this fire 20 season we had a lot of rain, which was great, but that of 21 course made for more growth so our roadside slashing 22 continued right through the fire season. But there are 23 other ways of doing that, it could be a burn-off done by 24 the local CFA, so that is a way of reducing the fire 25 hazard as such. 26 If we could look now at the next heading, which is 27 "Rural/residential". This is on page 0056, and then there 28 is a table on page 0057. Again, if you could identify the 29 risks and the treatments that have been specified to match 30 those risks or treat those risks?---The risks is loss of 31 life, property, from an uncontrolled fire and the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17198 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 objective is to reduce the incidence, intensity and spread 2 of uncontrolled fires, minimise the loss of property and 3 personal effects. The treatment program is run through 4 the CFA and council as well. It used to be called the 5 "Bushfire blitz" programs or "Stay or go" and "Pre-summer 6 fire" that are run by the local brigades and the CFA, and 7 I'm involved with those as well. Also undertaking 8 property inspections on these outlying areas and getting 9 the fuel reduction down in these areas is also one of the 10 major responsibilities of myself. That timeframe is 11 usually October through the fire season again. 12 Then you have an issue related to inadequate water supply 13 outside of the towns?---Yes. Because these smaller areas 14 aren't on a reticulated water supply, there are issues 15 with inadequate water supply for firefighting. With the 16 drought we've had over numerous years, the rivers have 17 slowed up and a lot of the springs have slowed up. 18 Therefore the farmers' dams don't have as much water in 19 them, so that's an issue we have been looking at and we 20 have actually been putting in static water supply systems 21 in certain areas that we believe are required for 22 firefighting purposes. 23 And the treatment that's specified for that is enforcement of 24 town planning provisions that require provision of 25 adequate water for firefighting purposes?---Static, yes. 26 Does that involve your planning department?---That's the 27 planning department. That's correct, yes. 28 Then there is an issue related to access?---Yes. In regards to 29 access, council's obligation is to ensure there is enough 30 access, roadside clearance, so that's where council gets 31 involved also.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17199 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Again, this identifies the risks at a very conceptual 2 level?---Yes. 3 How do you know where these risks are within a fairly 4 widespread population in your municipality?---We have got 5 a large area and, as I said, that's where the local 6 brigade captains and myself work well together. They know 7 where their risks are in their local area and obviously 8 council has a roadside program of inspections and 9 maintenance that we do also and roadside slashing is just 10 one of those that we do. 11 It might be useful if I ask you at this point whether you have 12 had experience with the Victorian fire risk register. 13 What experience have you had?---It is only just new and 14 has only just come in this summer. I did a two-day 15 training with them. We sat down as a group with all the 16 different authorities and looked at the Alpine shire in 17 general. The maps brought up through GIS brought up the 18 different locations, townships, hamlets and the risks 19 involved with all of those and the fuel loads, et cetera. 20 Have there been maps produced for Alpine shire yet?---There has 21 been, I believe. 22 They identify several different kinds of assets; human, 23 economic, environmental and cultural?---Yes. 24 It is a useful complement, is it not, to this plan, because it 25 gives anyone who can look at the map the location of the 26 risks and an idea of the treatments that are being applied 27 to deal with those risks?---Yes. It is a very useful 28 register, yes. 29 There is one other aspect of the fire prevention plan I would 30 like to ask you about, and that appears on page 35 of the 31 plan, witness page 0070. It relates to buffer zones.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17200 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Under "Home fire refuge" and "Community fire refuges" we 2 have "Buffer zones". It tells us they are a tool used in 3 the treatment of a variety of situations. It then says 4 further details will be provided when the appropriate 5 information becomes available. What is the status of 6 using buffer zones as treatments in your municipal fire 7 prevention plan?---We have areas classed as buffer zones. 8 Mainly we are looking at around the townships and that 9 also falls back into the Victorian fire risk register, it 10 would be on those. But our buffer zones are more of our 11 major roads that go through the Alpine shire. They are 12 classed, as well as our access roads, they are also a 13 fuel-reduced area that help to stop in case there was a 14 fire. 15 Because establishing a buffer zone requires a degree of 16 cooperation, does it not, between council, CFA, DSE and 17 other landowners?---Yes. VicRoads, they control the 18 roadsides of the major roads in the Alpine shire. So, 19 yes, VicRoads are a major player in regards to the 20 roadsides. 21 That leads me to my next question, which is what is the degree 22 of interaction between this fire prevention plan that we 23 have been looking at and the DSE fire prevention plan that 24 is referred to in appendix N to the plan?---The DSE plan 25 - obviously they sit on our committee and they have a copy 26 of the plan, but their fire plan is above ours. Ours 27 would obviously sit well below theirs, but they are well 28 aware of our plan and Shaun Lawlor, as you mentioned 29 earlier, he comes to all of our meetings and he is well 30 aware of our plan. Their plan does more work on the 31 larger-scale Crown land. As I said, 92 per cent is Crown

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17201 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 land, state forest et cetera, around the townships. So he 2 looks after more of the larger, strategic area rather than 3 the townships themselves. 4 Where the planned burns occur where the fuel reduction occurs, 5 is that a matter that's determined by DSE or is there 6 input into that through the municipal fire prevention 7 committee?---There is input from our committee and there 8 is input from the general public as well. DSE have a 9 meeting every year at numerous locations around the shire 10 requesting local input into the plans. It's on their 11 website and, yes, they do get quite good input from the 12 general public as well as our committee and our local 13 brigades. 14 There is an example I think recently of a burn that was done 15 near one of the townships in the shire that involved the 16 CFA, plantation owner and DSE?---Yes, the burn I think you 17 are talking about is at Tawonga South. We did it 18 approximately this time last year. It was an area of 19 council-owned land backing onto residential properties and 20 it went from there up into Crown land, so the CFA and the 21 DSE worked together, as well as council, on that burn and 22 we did a fuel reduction burn over the approximately 23 10 hectares of council land and then approximately 24 100 hectares or more of Crown land on top of that. That 25 was very successful. I think it's a great thing that we 26 can all work together to achieve the outcome that's 27 required. 28 Was that cooperation a result of the municipal fire prevention 29 planning or was it something that occurred outside of that 30 process?---It was brought up on the municipal fire 31 prevention committee, that there was an issue there.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17202 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Obviously the DSE were made aware of it from that 2 committee meeting and forward on from that negotiations 3 started in regards to doing a fuel reduction burn there. 4 Prior to the burn, council had to go in and spray all the 5 weeds. Then the following autumn after the fire season 6 that's when the burn continued. 7 You have at present a traditional municipal fire prevention 8 committee in Alpine shire?---Yes. 9 What do you see is the future for the integrated fire 10 management planning framework in Alpine shire?---I believe 11 it will be a good step forward. In my opinion, it has 12 been a long time coming, approximately six or eight years, 13 but it is gaining strength and there is more work. Only 14 recently I have received more information on it. I'm 15 hoping that it will get all the authorities working 16 together on the one plan and I think that's definitely a 17 good step forward. 18 There is one other matter that I would like to ask you about, 19 and that's the township protection plans. You have been 20 involved in the township protection planning process over 21 the last year. Plans have been prepared for a number of 22 locations within the shire. Which are they?---The 23 locations that the township protection plans were prepared 24 for by the CFA was Bogong, Harrietville, Bright, 25 Wandiligong and Porepunkah. 26 You have provided us with copies of the township protection 27 plan that's been prepared for each of those locations. 28 Perhaps we could have a look at the one for Bogong. It is 29 attachment 5 and it is witness number 0224. Can you 30 outline the process that you were involved in in 31 developing these plans?---Obviously the town protection

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17203 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 plans are delivered by the CFA. The gentleman from the 2 CFA that developed these plans had negotiations with 3 myself, and I worked - spent numerous days with him on 4 these plans. But council's involvement is more of 5 ensuring that what's on the plan is correct, because we've 6 got the local knowledge, and then getting the plans out to 7 the public and advertising them as such. So, I was given 8 a copy of the plan and asked for my opinion and then 9 I went to the area, in this regard Bogong, and we went 10 over the plan and what was there, to ensure that what was 11 on the plan was correct. 12 Was your municipal fire prevention committee involved in any 13 way in the development of the plan?---They weren't 14 involved in the development of the plan as such, but 15 I know our municipal fire prevention plan was given to him 16 and he went over that, so in one regard we were. 17 So it drew on the work that's expressed in the plan?---Drew on 18 the work, yes, that's correct. 19 If we could look at this and just tell us a little bit about 20 the settlement of Bogong?---Bogong is a very small 21 settlement just below Falls Creek and above Mount Beauty 22 on the Bogong High Plains Road. That Lake Guy there is 23 actually a lake in conjunction with a power plant 24 generating power by AGL, so the actual township itself is 25 majority AGL workers. There are some residents, just a 26 handful of residents. In regards to numbers that actually 27 live there full-time, I think there are only about a dozen 28 people who live there full-time. 29 Part of the exercise in preparing this township protection plan 30 was seeing whether there was any place that could be a 31 neighbourhood safer place?---That's correct.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17204 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 And as noted there is currently no identified neighbourhood 2 safer place and I take it no fire refuge 3 either?---(Witness nods.) 4 Is there any prospect of identifying a neighbourhood safer 5 place for this isolated one road in, one road out 6 town?---There is. CFA have been up there on four 7 occasions, two of them with myself. We have looked at 8 various places of interest that possibly could. They have 9 been assessed. One area has passed the assessment but 10 there are other issues involved in making it a 11 neighbourhood safer place. It doesn't mean because it 12 passes the criteria that it becomes a neighbourhood safer 13 place. There are issues in regards to having 24-hour 14 access, making sure the place is available for people to 15 get in and out and it is safe to be there. The area we 16 are looking at up there is the actual power station 17 itself, so when you are dealing with a multi-million 18 dollar power station that's owned by a private 19 organisation, there is obviously a lot of negotiation has 20 to go by to let the general public, 24-hour seven-day 21 access, through it. There is a possibility it may happen, 22 but we are still talking about it. 23 Otherwise, the advice remains as set out on the following page, 24 that people, in particular the vulnerable, should leave 25 early. The only indication that's given as to where they 26 might go is the travel distance map at the bottom of the 27 page that indicates the distance to other towns in the 28 area and there is a very clear statement that there is no 29 neighbourhood safer place at this settlement?---That's 30 correct. 31 If we could just look at one more, which is the township

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17205 FARMER XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 protection plan for the Bright-Wandiligong township, where 2 a neighbourhood safer place has been identified. That is 3 at witness page 0228. If you could just explain to us how 4 you were involved or what the process was for identifying 5 the neighbourhood safer place?---The process was I went 6 out and inspected some areas that I believed may meet the 7 criteria and then asked the CFA to come and do an 8 assessment on these areas. The area we looked at in 9 Bright was the football oval and sporting complex area. 10 Then the CFA came and did an assessment whether or not it 11 met the criteria, which it did. So the neighbourhood 12 safer place there is actually the oval itself and also the 13 pavilion, so we've got a building as well as the outdoor 14 oval. 15 There is a part 3 of these township protection plans that deals 16 with prevention work. That's not part of what's made 17 available to the public. It is not part of what you have 18 provided us with here. Would you be able to provide those 19 to us subsequently?---Yes. If you would like those, I can 20 get those, and there is also a part to do with the 21 firefighting as well, which sort of on the map again shows 22 where all the hydrants are, water points are, access areas 23 et cetera. 24 If you would like to provide the whole thing, that would be 25 gratefully accepted?---Yes, I will get those for you. 26 Thank you. I have no questions for Mr Farmer. Commissioners? 27 I think Dr Lyon has a few questions. 28

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17206 FARMER XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 outline by example to say, for example towns, how you 2 identify the risks and how the strategies are to be 3 implemented. If we can just bring up on the MFPP 4 (WIT.4025.001.0043) which is in fact page 8 of the MFPP. 5 In the second paragraph there, you see it says, "This 6 document should not be seen as overriding local fire 7 brigade plans and public authority plans, but has been 8 developed to build on these plans and to provide a 9 framework into which they should fit. It is critical that 10 local fire brigade plans are developed or maintained for 11 their areas. These local plans will contain specific 12 details that are beyond the scope of this document." Now, 13 is that what you were referring to when you said that you 14 liaise closely with the local brigades that have the local 15 knowledge?---Definitely. They've got the local knowledge 16 of the area and that's a big thing. As I stated, Alpine 17 shire is a large area and it's hard to get around the 18 whole area, so the local brigades and usually the captains 19 work very closely with myself in regards to fire 20 prevention and the plan itself. 21 So there's two points to come out of that. The first is that 22 really the MFPP as a document does not provide an overall 23 blueprint towards strategy and response to fires, does 24 it?---No, this is just the municipal side of things. 25 The second point is that the role of the MFPO, it seems to be a 26 very relationship-based role. You must have the 27 relationship with the CFA, you must have it with each of 28 the other stakeholders in order to ensure that you keep on 29 top of the response to fire prevention?---Absolutely. 30 That's where I'm hoping that IFMP will work on that and 31 get us all working together as well. I have a great

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17207 FARMER XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 relationship with the CFA local brigades and regionally in 2 the Alpine shire and also DSE and the other organisations 3 that sit on the committee. We all work well together. 4 During the fire season we're talking on a daily or weekly, 5 if not daily, basis; I'm getting calls from local brigade 6 captains or other parties in regards to it. We work well 7 together. 8 So in fact to do the job and do it properly it is a very 9 intensive role for six to seven months of the 10 year?---Definitely. Even this time of year we are 11 organising burns et cetera on council land, so there is a 12 lot of time and effort that goes into those also. 13 And then in addition to that you have the audit of the MFPP 14 coming up later on this year?---Yes, that will be later 15 this year. 16 And so between now and June or July you have quite a 17 considerable amount of work to ensure that the review of 18 the MFPP will meet the audit?---Yes, that's right. The 19 committee will be meeting next month and at that committee 20 meeting it will be put forward that the town protection 21 plans, which were a draft interim plan for the '09/10 fire 22 season, be put on the plan and also the neighbourhood 23 safer places and from that committee meeting will be a 24 subcommittee to look at going over these plans before the 25 review by the CFA. 26 What you said before, and we will hear from Mr Kittel shortly, 27 but you said that your hope for the IFMP is that it will 28 bring all of the agencies together, but certainly the 29 Victorian fire risk register provides a map-based approach 30 to actually mapping assets and identifying risk and 31 responsibility for the risk; is that right?---Absolutely.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17208 FARMER XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 Through the mapping base it's very good for councils and 2 all authorities to have that information available so we 3 know exactly what's there. 4 Then, just finally, in relation to attachment 5, as has already 5 been made clear by Ms Richards, what is attached in 6 relation to the township protection plans that you have 7 set out is only one of four parts of the information that 8 relates to it?---Yes. There are more parts to it, more 9 the operational side of the parts, but I can get those for 10 you. 11 If I can identify them briefly. Part 1 is the community 12 information, part 2 is the township planning factors which 13 goes to the emergency services and other key stakeholders, 14 part 3 is fire prevention and part 4 is community 15 engagement and preparedness strategies and brigade 16 operational response strategies; is that right?---Yes. 17 Part of council's obligation is to get the information out 18 to the public and work with the public. As I said, these 19 plans were only draft interim plans for this fire season 20 gone. We are already working on new plans for next fire 21 season. The plans were brought forward without possibly 22 as much public consultation as we would have liked, mainly 23 being the short timeframe before the fire season. We 24 wanted to have something up and running for this fire 25 season, which we did. Now we are going back to the public 26 and getting their information and their input into the 27 plans. 28 Thank you. They are the matters. 29 MS RICHARDS: There is no re-examination. May Mr Farmer be 30 excused? 31 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you, Mr Farmer. You are excused.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17209 FARMER XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 <(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 2 MS RICHARDS: The next witness is Kevin Kittel, who is the 3 municipal fire prevention officer for the shire of 4 Corangamite. I call Mr Kittel. 5

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17210 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 cropping in that area now. 2 The administrative centre of the shire is Camperdown where the 3 shire offices are located. What are some of the other 4 towns that we find in Corangamite?---You've got Cobden, 5 which is south of Camperdown. You've got , , 6 , Princetown in the south. To the north you 7 have Lismore, and Skipton. 8 As you've described, the shire divides naturally into a 9 northern part and a southern part?---Yes, almost around 10 the Princes Highway. 11 Are there parts of the shire that are public land under the 12 control of DSE or Parks Victoria?---There are some parts 13 of crown land, yes. 14 Most of us have some familiarity with the Port Campbell 15 National Park?---The Port Campbell National Park. There 16 are some other areas of state forest just out of Timboon, 17 and the edge of the Otways runs into the eastern boundary 18 of our shire. 19 Are you able to tell us what proportion of the shire is public 20 land or state public land?---I couldn't tell you exactly. 21 I would have to take a guess and I would say probably 7 or 22 8 per cent. 23 Again, what population and what is the scope of the council's 24 operations?---We have a population of around 17,000. The 25 three bigger towns of Camperdown, Cobden and Terang would 26 be the main centres. The rest would be smaller townships. 27 Council has an annual budget of around $35 million. We 28 employ about 280 people all up. 29 Is that full- and part-time?---That's full- and part-time. 30 You have a number of hats that you wear within the council in 31 addition to municipal fire prevention officer. What are

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17211 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 the other roles that you have?---I guess principally I'm 2 the manager of what they call the public safety unit. 3 Within that unit there is local laws and animal control. 4 There is the immunisation and environmental health area. 5 I do the hands-on role for all emergency management and 6 fire prevention. 7 So you are also the municipal emergency response officer and 8 the municipal recovery manager?---I am. 9 There is also another role that you refer to, the municipal 10 emergency manager?---That's one that in, as they call it, 11 the green book, the emergency manual, says that somebody 12 should have an overarching role over the other emergency 13 roles just to ensure that everything does mesh together. 14 So I do the lot. 15 So you oversee yourself doing both response and recovery 16 roles?---Virtually, yes. 17 How useful have you found it being both the municipal emergency 18 response officer and the municipal fire prevention 19 officer?---It has worked well for me because there are 20 many times where in an emergency you might need to locate 21 that other person who is doing the other role to be able 22 to converse with them about different issues. By doing 23 both obviously I know what's going on in both camps and it 24 just makes it easier with committees and dealing with 25 responses and any of the emergencies that we deal with. 26 Where does your, if I might call it, substantive role as 27 manager of public safety and amenity fit within the 28 council hierarchy?---Third row. I'm a manager. It is 29 CEO, director and then myself. 30 Around about what proportion of your time do you spend on 31 municipal fire prevention work?---As the previous person

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17212 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 said, it does vary. But, if you took it as an average 2 across the year, probably seven or eight years ago I could 3 say it was 15 per cent for MFPO and 15 per cent for 4 emergency management. In the last couple of years I would 5 say that's doubled. 6 Do you have an assistant MFPO?---I do. 7 How do you divide responsibilities between you?---Basically 8 what he does is the issuing of the fire prevention 9 notices, the prior inspections for those and then issuing 10 the notices, and that's basically his role. 11 You retain supervisory responsibility and you are also the 12 person who attends and chairs municipal fire prevention 13 committee meetings?---That's correct. 14 Which leads me now into the municipal fire prevention committee 15 that you have in Corangamite, and it is of course in a 16 period of transition, is it not?---It is. 17 Could you tell us what the municipal fire prevention 18 committee's constitution was before the transition to 19 IFMP?---The constitution, I think it seems to be fairly 20 uniform across the state in that you have a representative 21 of every brigade; you have a representative of the brigade 22 groups; obviously the MFPO; we also have a councillor on 23 the committee; then you have DSE; we have an officer from 24 the CFA community safety area. Others have been invited, 25 like VicRoads, the rail authorities, Hancock plantation 26 owners. They don't attend meetings on a regular basis. 27 You have a fairly large number of brigades within the shire, 43 28 brigades and eight groups?---That's right. 29 So if you have a fully attended meeting that's 51 CFA 30 representatives plus the manager community safety?---Yes. 31 I suppose in practice there are some brigades who just

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17213 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 don't attend any meetings. There are others who will turn 2 up with the deputy and the delegate. There are others who 3 will turn up with just one person representing the 4 brigade. So they do vary from sometimes 25 or 30 up to 35 5 at any one meeting. 6 Have you, as they did in the Alpine shire, split the committee 7 in any way?---We have. Because of the diverse nature of 8 the two parts of the shire we formed two committees. For 9 a while we were meeting as a combined group as well. So 10 the northern committee would meet, the southern, and then 11 once a year we would bring the two together. We found 12 that that was not very effective at all. The southern 13 guys had no interest at all in what was happening in the 14 north, were happy to leave it to their counterparts up 15 there to deal with it. So we really saw no use in having 16 those meetings. So now we have gone back to having two 17 meetings a year of each committee. 18 So the northern committee meets in around April and around 19 September?---Early November and April; same with 20 the south. 21 How have you found attendance at committee meetings over the 22 years?---They tend to vary as well. Sometimes we have got 23 down to hardly making a quorum and just getting through a 24 meeting without too much business happening. But other 25 times when there may be issues that need to be dealt with 26 they will certainly turn up in their numbers then. 27 Have there been issues with representatives of other agencies, 28 DSE, VicRoads, plantations, attending MFPC 29 meetings?---Going back to when I first took on this role, 30 almost 20 years ago, we had a reasonably regular 31 attendance from VicRoads and DSE and Parks Victoria, and

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17214 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 Powercor would come along at least once a year. What we 2 find now is they don't attend because issues that were 3 raised and I guess the disparity between the numbers of 4 CFA brigade personnel and these people who were one-off 5 representing their organisation, they at times felt they 6 were being - I guess you would call it, if you want to - 7 bashed about their organisation's perhaps lack of 8 effectiveness or something like that. So they tended not 9 to turn up. 10 You are in the process of moving to municipal fire management 11 committee, and I will ask you about that a little while 12 later. If we could move to looking at the municipal fire 13 prevention plan, which is attachment 3 to your statement, 14 starting at witness page 0041. Perhaps if we could look 15 at the table of contents, which is the second page, to 16 give us an idea of the overall structure of the plan. 17 Then I would like to do with you as I did with Mr Farmer, 18 get you to explain for us a couple of the risks that have 19 been identified and the way the treatments have been 20 matched to those risks. But, to begin with, could you 21 outline the structure of the plan?---I guess like most 22 plans it has an aim and an introduction, and this one sets 23 out the areas of responsibility. So within the aim of the 24 plan you look at what your objectives are, what you hope 25 to achieve with it. In this case it has a works program. 26 Then it looks at the areas of responsibility. As it sets 27 out there, the property owners, fire brigades, 28 municipalities all have certain areas of responsibility. 29 Then it looks at what the municipal fire prevention 30 committee will do; what the regional fire prevention 31 committee does; the role of the municipal fire prevention

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17215 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 officer; what public authorities are involved in the area 2 with this plan; VicRoads and the rail authorities; the 3 electricity suppliers; and in this case also Corangamite 4 shire has tree clearance responsibilities for powerlines 5 within the ; also water authorities, 6 Wannon Water and Central Highlands, and there is the 7 Southern Rural Water Authority as well; the Department of 8 Sustainability; and we do have a forest industry brigade 9 as well. 10 There is a large number of plantations within the shire?---Yes. 11 In both north and south we have pine and blue gum 12 plantations. It also details the organisations that were 13 involved in the preparation of the plan, some planning 14 considerations and some wildfire history of the shire; 15 land use and its impact; different planning levels that we 16 identified that were required. It also talks about the 17 fire brigades that are located within the shire in both 18 the northern and southern sector. We looked at the risk 19 environments; strategic fire management roads, as distinct 20 I suppose from being called firebreak roads. Then we 21 looked at other fire management plans that were in place; 22 the fire hazard removal process, which is the inspection 23 of the private land and the service of notices; access 24 roads that were seen to be required across the shire to 25 assist in response to fire; water supply points, because 26 in many of the areas there's no reticulated water supply; 27 the process for permits to burn, for roadside burning and 28 windrow burning; the overlays for bushfire-prone areas and 29 wildfire management overlay; and any other overlays that 30 may affect fire suppression. Then we put in a section for 31 the ongoing review of the plan. We touched on a

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17216 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 preparedness of brigades, because some of the brigades 2 have different things within their areas. Some have 3 industrial areas; some have the gas industry, the 4 processing plants; as I said before, the timber industry 5 with the pine plantations. We have looked at 6 environmental overlays and some other considerations that 7 need to be looked at. 8 Then there is a large number of appendices?---There is, yes. 9 The guts of the plan, if I might call it that, deal with the 10 identification of risk environments, and that starts at 11 page 19, I think. There are a range of different risk 12 environments identified: agriculture and farming, 13 industrial, transport, commercial, health care and special 14 accommodation. Perhaps you could just take us to a couple 15 of those, maybe residential and public assembly, and 16 explain what the risk is, where it is and the treatment 17 that's specified, the approach that's been decided upon by 18 the committee? So we can have it on the screen, this is 19 at witness page 0065?---With the residential one we 20 obviously looked at things like houses, flats and 21 permanently-occupied caravans and mobile homes. The risk 22 factors themselves would obviously be what fuel loads 23 surrounded those areas; what sort of the risk areas could 24 be coming from, like kitchens, gas supplies, heaters are 25 quite often a risk factor in house fires, any flammable 26 goods that might be in or around the homes; and some of 27 the risk areas are children and elderly who need special 28 attention in case of any fires. 29 So there are both internal structure fire issues and bushfire 30 issues?---Exactly, yes. 31 Just concentrating on bushfires for us, what are the treatments

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17217 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 that have been identified and how are they specified in 2 the plan?---As the strategy says, to ensure that residents 3 are informed about any of the risks that they may have in 4 their properties, you look at trying to get the awareness, 5 the acceptance of responsibility for people within their 6 own premises and to ensure that their own premises are 7 clear of fire hazards. Educational awareness programs are 8 carried out mainly by the CFA. They have programs that 9 are virtually statewide that are delivered by them. 10 Township protection measures put in place are mainly 11 within the shire's works program, and they are things that 12 are set aside like making sure that the roads around 13 residential areas are slashed and kept clear of any other 14 fire hazards. Part of that is to issue fire prevention 15 notices to any of the private landholders who haven't 16 cleared hazards off vacant blocks. 17 This is all expressed at a very general level. You have a very 18 large shire. How is the location of these risks 19 determined ?---As you said, it is very general. One of 20 the shortcomings of this plan is that when it was first 21 set up it just looked at general areas, where do you see 22 fires generally happening and plan for their management 23 from there. I guess what you looked at is mostly people 24 live within the bigger towns or the townships. So if we 25 could get an awareness of fire in there that would 26 overcome some of the problems that we may have within the 27 townships. With some of the works that council does and 28 the fire brigades do, hopefully it would also prevent 29 wildfire encroaching on any of the townships. As you 30 said, it is still very general. That's one of the lacking 31 points that we have found with it over the last few years.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17218 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 You can be general and say, "We have a plan that meets the 2 criteria," but it isn't really detailed enough. That's 3 where I think the new ones are going to be much different. 4 Let's move in that direction. You have been through an audit 5 of this plan, haven't you, while you have been the 6 municipal fire prevention officer?---The plan has been 7 audited I think three times now. 8 How have you found that process as a process for improving the 9 content of the plan? Has it been helpful?---In a small 10 way. Probably at each audit you pick up on something that 11 needed to be expanded on. So you attend to that and at 12 the next one you might pick up on something else you have 13 missed. But it still didn't make it as specific as 14 perhaps it should be. One of the issues with that was, if 15 you identify every single hazard in a document like this 16 where everything is text, you could end up with an 17 enormous plan that would become unwieldy and probably not 18 be used properly. 19 But you have experience of the Victorian fire risk register and 20 mapping risk in the shire in that way. It might help if 21 we bring up one of the maps that's been produced for 22 Corangamite. If we could look at (RESP.3001.015.0347). 23 While we are bringing that document up, it may take a 24 little while, could you outline for us the way in which 25 the Victorian fire risk register has been used in 26 Corangamite?---What happened with the Corangamite one, and 27 it happened as a group in the Barwon south-west area, all 28 the agencies and organisations were brought together for a 29 two-day workshop. The mapping base was brought up and 30 then everyone was asked to identify assets that they owned 31 and what treatment works were being applied to those at

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17219 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 the time, and then at the end to try to have an overall 2 picture and try to recognise if there were any gaps within 3 the assets that have been already recognised. With the 4 treatments that have been put in place, that became part 5 of a dataset that then is part of the mapping system. So 6 all your assets are then set up on the map with a number. 7 It is easy to identify what that asset is by looking at 8 the dataset. It also has a treatment dataset that goes 9 with that that you can then look at what treatments are 10 being applied to that specific asset, and all readily 11 available with the map to be able to look at the whole 12 shire and say, "Yes, there's all of our assets and 13 everything set up there with the treatments," which to my 14 mind is much better than having to read a vast document of 15 text. It is easy for people to lay that out on a table if 16 they are in like a MECC or an ICC, see the same mapping 17 that the people who did the planning are looking at, know 18 where the assets are that could be in front of a fire, 19 know what treatments have been applied there or could then 20 say, "It hasn't been adequately covered. We need to do 21 something about protecting that area." I think it has 22 tremendous advantages. 23 It strikes me as a means for translating the very general 24 identification of risks that we see in the risk 25 environment set out in your plan into their physical 26 locations and matching treatments with risks as they are 27 located?---Exactly. Yes. 28 Just to take us through this document that we have on the 29 screen, it is a little difficult to read because it is 30 designed to be printed out on I think A0 or A1 paper, but 31 we are looking at the southern part of the shire. There

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17220 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 is a colour code that's used. One of them, I think it is 2 the pink one, is houses or human assets?---Human 3 settlement they call that one. 4 So that will often be a township?---Yes. 5 And then green is I think environmental assets?---Generally 6 that will relate to crown land assets. 7 Yellow is economic assets and red is cultural?---Yes. 8 On the right-hand side there is a table that lists all of the 9 assets that have been identified and matches them with the 10 treatments that are specified in the table on the bottom 11 left-hand column?---It does, yes. 12 Can I ask you, just before we move to the transition to IFMP, 13 how DSE and Parks Victoria have fitted with your 14 traditional municipal fire prevention committee and the 15 municipal fire prevention plan that you have in place at 16 present?---DSE and Parks Victoria have both always been 17 part of the committee; as I said, not always in 18 attendance. If there are specific issues that relate to 19 Parks Victoria, I will generally get in touch with them 20 and ask them to attend a meeting to make sure that we have 21 someone there to discuss any of those issues. DSE are 22 irregular attenders, but generally if there are any issues 23 raised by the committee they can be taken straight to the 24 appropriate person within DSE by myself and the issues are 25 sorted out that way. 26 DSE have their own fire prevention plan for public land in the 27 municipality?---They do, yes. 28 Moving to the way of the future, IFMP, could you outline for 29 the Commission how that has been implemented in the shire 30 of Corangamite?---We became part of a group that was 31 called the G21 group. Basically it was made up of the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17221 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 shire councils around the Geelong area, the Barwon area. 2 Normally we don't align with that area in our normal 3 municipal dealings. But because Corangamite shire makes 4 up half of region 6, which is aligned to the Geelong area, 5 we became part of the group that was set up to look at the 6 model plan that IFMP would produce. So that's how 7 Corangamite got to be involved with that. It is probably 8 a bit over 12 months I think since we first started that 9 process, but the role we were given was to develop a plan 10 that could be used as a model across the state. So with 11 the councils of Colac-Otway, Surf Coast, Golden Plains, 12 , obviously Corangamite and 13 Queenscliff we were given a template plan and asked to 14 formulate that into a model. There were some problems 15 with it. As it went on it became a fairly big project 16 because, to get all the work that had been done by the 17 other organisations and to try to truly integrate it, it 18 meant bringing in representatives from all the agencies 19 and authorities. So there were some quite large workshops 20 that were held, probably in excess of 40 people at times 21 contributing towards the process, mainly about the works 22 that they already do, their fire prevention plans or what 23 their assets are. We put that together in quite a large 24 matrix. We then had to start to look at what the plan 25 should look like and what it should contain. That's where 26 we did run into some problems because obviously you have 27 got a large number of people there. We couldn't all get 28 our heads around what should go in, what should be left 29 out, how much detail does this plan require, what should 30 be uniform to everyone, how big should the local content 31 be. So for a while there it was hard to come to terms

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17222 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 with what actually was needed. There had been no 2 guidelines set out at that stage. It was virtually a do 3 it as you go sort of thing. We did have the template that 4 was put out by CFA. But the council people couldn't sort 5 of really get their head around what some of the things 6 meant in there. I think it was CFA based and related. 7 So, when you saw some of the precincts and things that 8 were included in there, they were all new to us. We 9 hadn't seen those versions before. So we then had some 10 trouble trying to relate how do we fit some of the things 11 together around that. So that all took time to try to get 12 that to work out. It meant that we had to meet quite 13 regularly to get it to come together. I have to say that 14 over the approach to the fire season the pressure of the 15 fire season also had its effect on everyone. You couldn't 16 meet as regularly as you wanted to because you also had to 17 be back getting ready for the coming fire season. So it 18 got to the point where we all agreed that perhaps we 19 should call a stop to it at that stage, get back to what 20 we were doing with the fire season and then recommence 21 that at the end of the fire season. 22 So this is the G21, the group that you described extending all 23 along the south-west coast up to Queenscliff?---Yes. So 24 we had a plan that was almost at a first draft stage but 25 just needed to be perhaps sorted through a little bit. 26 With the VFRR being part of that process, and it started 27 out as being an appendix to the model plan, it started to 28 become obvious to some of us that it may be more than just 29 an appendix to the plan; perhaps it needed to be more the 30 backbone of the plan and give you that asset base that you 31 are working on and then build the rest of the plan around

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17223 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 that. So we are stuck a little bit at the moment with 2 the precincts that we were given in the template plan not 3 aligning with the precincts in the VFRR. So we have done 4 some work on those, and probably within the next few 5 meetings we can align what the precincts should be perhaps 6 more around the VFRR. One of the issues I suppose we have 7 got is there is no direction that's come from state or 8 even region to say, "Yes, use the VFRR as your basis. It 9 is an option there." So some of us believe it should be 10 the basis, some perhaps don't. 11 It appears from paragraphs 92 and 93 of your statement that 12 your view is that the Victorian fire risk register really 13 is the way forward for integrated fire management planning 14 and should be the basis from which the plan is 15 developed?---That's my view, yes. 16 Is that the approach that you have adopted within the shire of 17 Corangamite with the newly formed municipal fire 18 management planning committee?---I put that to our 19 committee and almost unanimously they said they believed 20 it was a much better way to go. 21 Just for completeness, you have told us in your statement that 22 you are nearly at the process of having handed over from 23 the municipal fire planning committee - the prevention 24 committees to the municipal fire management planning 25 committee and you are now looking at a committee with a 26 much trimmer membership than you previously had which will 27 be yourself, a councillor, a council staff member, the 28 director of works and services, a smaller number of CFA 29 representatives and representatives from Parks Victoria 30 and DSE and Victoria Police?---That's correct. 31 With secondary members as required for issues that may

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17224 KITTEL XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MS RICHARDS 1 arise?---That's right. 2 Thank you, Mr Kittel. I have no further questions for 3 Mr Kittel. 4

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17225 KITTEL XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 my opinion. That's the way our committee has seen it, 2 that it should be chaired by at least one member of a fire 3 service, whether it be DSE or CFA. I don't think my role 4 has diminished in any way just because I'm no longer the 5 chair. You are a key stakeholder, provide administrative 6 support to the chair, and certainly every member of the 7 committee being a key stakeholder has an equal ranking, as 8 you might say, within the committee. 9 So can I take it that the IFMP framework really uses the term 10 "municipal" in its true sense, not just related to local 11 council but, for those within a particular district, the 12 stakeholders each have responsibilities and a say in the 13 fire prevention management and planning?---It is. The 14 term "municipal area" is more precise rather than saying 15 - sorry, under the old plan it was the council's plan only 16 and dealt with the council. But in this one the committee 17 covers the municipal district rather than the council. 18 MS RICHARDS: I have nothing arising. May Mr Kittel be 19 excused? 20 CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you, Mr Kittel. You are excused. 21 <(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 22 MS RICHARDS: That is the evidence on municipal fire 23 prevention. 24 CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 2 o'clock. 25 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 26 27 28 29 30 31

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17226 KITTEL XXN Bushfires Royal Commission BY DR LYON 1 UPON RESUMING AT 2.00 PM: 2 MR RUSH: Commissioners, I call Mr Thomas. 3

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17227 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 minute in relation to the property, but you bought the 2 property and then built a house on the property?---That's 3 correct. 4 And you have farmed cattle and in paragraph 3 of your statement 5 you indicate that you've mined for gold on the 6 property?---That's true. 7 Successfully?---No. 8 Then in about 2001 you indicate that you, through advancing 9 years, decided to subdivide the property?---That's 10 correct. 11 It was subdivided into three lots of 20 acres?---That's so. 12 And you kept your house and 20 acres?---That's correct. 13 Is there a good view from your house?---Yes, it is an excellent 14 view. 15 Do you look down in effect to St Andrews and also to 16 Strathewen?---No, I'm more or less parallel to - well, to 17 the east of Strathewen, which you can't see, and I can 18 only see basically to the north where the Kinglake Ranges 19 are and I can't see St Andrews to the south because there 20 are hills between them. 21 You have provided, and we will have a look at them in a minute, 22 some photographs of Wild Dog Creek Road, but firstly it is 23 an unsealed road?---Yes. 24 And does it traverse through the Kinglake National Park?---Yes. 25 Can you perhaps describe to the Commissioners the road in 26 general terms as you come to your property because you are 27 pretty much towards the end of Wild Dog Creek Road as it 28 comes off the Heidelberg-Kinglake Road?---As it leaves the 29 Heidelberg-Kinglake Road it is in fair condition, 30 particularly where it meets the road, because the council, 31 following a request from me some time ago, sealed a

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17228 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 section there which is only about 10, 12 feet across 2 because it was very corrugated and was dangerous as you 3 led into the main road. But after that it's an ordinary 4 country road, very narrow, quite potholed. Its current 5 state is different to what it was at the time of the 6 fires, if I speak about as at the date in question. It 7 was a narrow road, overgrown on the sides, potholes right 8 along it. Some trees were so close to the actual road 9 itself that you could not pass vehicles at that particular 10 point. Normally you could pass a car if you got right to 11 one side and quite often cars would stop to pass. It goes 12 in for about eight k before there is a road that goes off 13 to the right, up to Dinsdale Road, but continuing on Wild 14 Dog Creek Road it was still narrow and a lot of dead trees 15 still standing, some overhanging the road. As you proceed 16 further, it follows around to the south up a very 17 corrugated bit of road which is also steep. This has been 18 a bone of contention for some years because it's 19 dangerous. At the end of that road it swings around to 20 the side of lot 190 and then does a turn to the left. In 21 that direction there it happens to be to the east and it 22 is still a narrow road, except that that road has not been 23 changed by the bushfire, so I've got some photos that show 24 that road, which was a fair indication of the condition 25 that Wild Dog Creek Road was in the portion I've just 26 described. It has not been touched in about 30 or 27 40 years. 28 Perhaps if we can bring up attachment 1 to your statement, 29 which is at 0010, which on your assessment gives us just a 30 rough idea of the area. We can see, perhaps in the left 31 quadrant, now about halfway up. We see Mittons Bridge and

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17229 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 then we see the Kinglake-Heidelberg Road. If we go to the 2 right a little bit. Then we see Wild Dog Creek Road 3 running off there where the cursor takes us?---Yes. 4 Appreciating I think you would say that this gives us an idea, 5 it is not entirely accurate?---No, it's not accurate, but 6 it gives the general direction of the road, and as it is 7 in relation roughly to Dinsdale Road. 8 We will come to Dinsdale Road, but on Wild Dog Creek Road you 9 live approximately two kilometres from the 10 Heidelberg-Kinglake Road?---Yes, about 2.1 kilometres. 11 Is that down after you have travelled through the Kinglake 12 National Park, the yellow piece?---Yes. Our property is 13 where you see the "RD", just past there. That's where our 14 properties are. 15 Then, if we were to come back, we see a turn-off there for 16 Dinsdale Road and also from Buttermans Road another part 17 of Dinsdale Road. Now, again, whilst not entirely 18 accurate, does that give us a rough idea of Dinsdale 19 Road?---Dinsdale Road on the map there in the lower 20 left-hand portion where the arrow points there is not off 21 Buttermans, it is off the main road to Kinglake from 22 St Andrews. 23 We will come to Yow Yow Road there off Buttermans Road and we 24 will hear about it in a minute, but on 7 February, after 25 being refused entry at a roadblock, did members of your 26 family walk into your property in the evening of 27 7 February using that road?---Yes. They didn't use - they 28 used - I understand the first occasion they got through 29 I was somewhere near Wild Dog Creek Road. Now, it must 30 have been after I had been blocked, so it must have eased 31 off a bit, but I think they walked through the bush. But

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17230 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 they certainly ended up at our place. 2 You, it is fair to say, and you say in your statement, have 3 agitated for quite some time to have Dinsdale Road 4 open?---Yes. 5 To provide a means of access if in an emergency it is 6 necessary?---Yes. Originally it was our access to our 7 property from the main road, now known as Dinsdale Road. 8 In those days it was known as Yow Yow Creek Road and my 9 driving licence still has my address as Lot 2, Yow Yow 10 Creek Road. I don't want to go into it; it is too 11 complicated, unless someone can help me on that one. 12 Can I ask you firstly about your house. Have you got a 13 sprinkler system at the house?---Yes. 14 And did you also on 7 February have pumps that were powered 15 both by electricity and petrol?---Yes, I had backup for 16 all the pumps because I know the power would probably go 17 off, and I've got very ample water supplies, a large dam 18 down the valley and also a dam above the house which will 19 gravity feed down to the pumps and also to the taps around 20 the house, to feed sprinklers and ordinary hoses. 21 You were set up in that respect. You mentioned two dams, one 22 having a very large capacity, you estimated - - 23 -?---I would say even after the drought there would be at 24 least a quarter of a million gallons down there left. I 25 have about five dams on the property because when I first 26 bought the place I had a bulldozer and I was very active. 27 Now I believe you're not allowed to put dams in. 28 With that facility, your fire plan for 7 February was not to 29 stay and defend your home but rather to leave, but leave 30 once you had made an observation of fire in the 31 area?---Yes.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17231 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 In relation to that, you have spoken generally of the view that 2 you have from your property, but that enabled you, and did 3 you on 7 February, with your wife, keep a lookout for 4 fire?---Yes, we have an excellent view of the top of the 5 Kinglake Ranges, probably about eight kilometres to the 6 north, and between those ranges there is another range 7 that goes across maybe one kilometre to the north, and 8 that's where the fire erupted on the day. 9 You also refer to there being, if you like, some disagreement 10 between yourself and your wife as to when you should leave 11 and when you should leave on 7 February?---She was ready 12 to go at dawn and had the car packed up very soon after 13 because we knew all the warnings about the general danger 14 on that day being very, very high and I said "I'll go as 15 soon as we see a sign of a fire up on the Kinglake Ranges, 16 we'll have at least a couple of hours," you'd normally 17 have, to get away from the area. It just didn't happen on 18 this occasion. 19 You also are part of a telephone tree?---There was a telephone 20 tree. I used to attend meetings run by a lady, her name 21 is Nan Oakes, in conjunction with the fire brigade and we 22 set up a telephone tree. On the day of the fire it didn't 23 operate as far as us, but I believe it operated from the 24 top of the hill to my next door neighbour. I don't think 25 generally it worked. 26 It wasn't used on 7 February?---Certainly not. Not as far as 27 we were concerned. 28 On 7 February you indicate that you were fairly quiet and 29 inside the house, which was airconditioned. Although the 30 airconditioner had broken down, it had been fixed up or 31 replaced during the week leading up to 7 February?---Yes.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17232 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 Were you listening to the radio?---Yes. Generally I listen to 2 the ABC. There was some warnings but there was nothing to 3 suggest there was any real threat to us at St Andrews. 4 Were you and your wife keeping an eye out from your property in 5 relation to any sign of fire?---Yes. You could hardly not 6 keep looking out to the north. It's like looking out this 7 window; it's there all the time. 8 You also indicate that at about 5 o'clock you got a phone call 9 from a neighbour of yours, Garry van der Meyden?---Yes. 10 Garry van der Meyden lives with his wife, he is probably 11 at least my age, on a property immediately to our north. 12 He has very serious arthritis in both hips and other 13 medical problems. His wife just recently, or some months 14 back now, fell off a ladder and she was in hospital at the 15 time and subsequently lost one leg. Garry rang, as he 16 does tend to do because he is on his own and if I can help 17 him I will, and said, "What are you doing about the fire?" 18 and I took it from that that he was concerned. I said, 19 "Leave it with me" and I rang Helen Kenney from the local 20 fire brigade. She knew him by name. I said, "Can you 21 help us to get Garry out. I doubt I could get him in my 22 car," it was a small car, and she said, "No, the 23 neighbours will have to help him. We can't do anything." 24 At that stage had Garry mentioned to you or was there any 25 mention in the phone call that you made to St Andrews CFA 26 about a fire?---Not a word. Just that they couldn't help 27 us get him out. 28 In the phone call to you, had Garry mentioned a fire?---No, he 29 didn't. He said, "What are you doing about the fires?" 30 I think he'd heard - I found out subsequently of course - 31 he heard something on the ABC which alerted him to the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17233 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 fact that the fire was a greater threat and more immediate 2 threat than we'd considered it, and he was concerned. 3 I think, to go ahead a bit later, we offered to pick him 4 up. 5 You say at paragraph 14 it was a pretty sudden event for you, 6 the observation of fire?---Very sudden. 7 What did you see and where was it?---I was just, I don't know, 8 around the place and my wife, Cubby, rushed out and said 9 "It's here". I looked up and it was here. It exploded 10 right across the front of our property and almost on top 11 of Garry van der Meyden's property. Around about then my 12 son rang and said, "Get out," that St Andrews - and I said 13 "Yes, we know, we're going." We dived into the car 14 and - do you want me to go on? 15 To the best that you can pin it down, that was somewhere around 16 5.30 to 6 o'clock?---Yes, around about then. 17 Did you head to the car?---Very quickly. By then the heat was 18 almost like being in front of a blast furnace. If we'd 19 stood before the car another 30 seconds, I think we 20 wouldn't have been able to get in. Got in the car. 21 Headed down to the neighbour's house. He was standing out 22 the front. 23 That is Garry's house?---No, Garry's is to the north. The 24 neighbour is to the west, the first neighbour, a chap 25 named Baker-Gabb. Dave said, "Look, I don't think you'll 26 get down." I said, "We should be right." He said 27 "I don't think you'll get down to the main road." And 28 because I'm always right, I set off, and I was wrong. 29 Before you headed off in the car, did you ring Garry 30 back?---Yes. I rang him virtually when we were almost in 31 panic stations. I said, "Garry, we'll pick you up but

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17234 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 I won't be able to stop." He said, "No, I've got to feed 2 the dogs." I said, "I'm sorry, we'll have to leave you." 3 He said, "I'll get in a paddock and get under a blanket." 4 Well, I had no choice. We were worried about him all that 5 night until we found out the next day that he had been 6 rescued after the wind change. 7 So you rang him but were then left with no choice and then you 8 made your escape in the car?---Yes. 9 Towards the Heidelberg-Kinglake Road?---Yes, that's correct. 10 And can you indicate to the Commissioners what faced you as you 11 drove down your road to get to that intersection?---Well, 12 shortly after we got down the steep corrugated bit and 13 about possibly 20 or 30 yards heading west, the flames 14 were at that stage only maybe four or five metres from the 15 road, but very low, but being fanned by a fairly strong 16 wind and I still thought we would outrun them. So we kept 17 going, until they got higher and closer to the road and 18 I pulled up at that stage and they were about maybe five 19 or six foot high, burning pretty fiercely, but they hadn't 20 crossed the road and I felt we'd get through. So we kept 21 going and about 100 yards further on the road was engulfed 22 by flames probably higher than - at least as high as 23 or twice the height of this ceiling in here, burning 24 fiercely, and there was no possible way. That would have 25 only been 100 yards from the main road. As it happened, 26 had we made it to the main road, I don't think we would 27 have been any better off because it had passed the end of 28 the road by another 300 yards down south. So, at that 29 stage we turned, with some difficulty it's so narrow, but 30 after about five or six see-saws I got around, turned and 31 we started racing back and found that then the flames had

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17235 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 crossed the road possibly 100 yards behind us and the only 2 other avenue of escape was up the road that went up - in 3 those days it was marked Dinsdale Road, but it is the road 4 on the map shown now as "to Dinsdale". 5 At this stage you managed to turn the car around to go back in 6 the direction from which you had come?---Yes. 7 And where was it your intention to go?---To get back home or up 8 that road, but I was in two minds whether to go straight 9 back through the flames or go up that road when the flames 10 were generally heading in that direction anyhow. 11 That was to go off down to Dinsdale Road?---Yes, up to the 12 right or down to the south. 13 And did your wife have something to say to you?---She reminded 14 me that that road was blocked, and I remembered of course 15 that it was blocked and I didn't know any way that we 16 would get out if we got there, and at least if I could get 17 back to our place we would be able to fight it from there. 18 So we drove through the flames, which in another maybe 19 over 100 yards were certainly as high as this ceiling, but 20 by a great stoke of luck there were not even branches 21 across the road and I could see through the smoke. 22 I think you say your wife indicated to you you should plant 23 your foot?---Yes. She had never said that before, said 24 "Plant your foot." Normally her only comment is there's a 25 policeman hiding behind every tree. 26 At this stage were there flames on both sides of the 27 road?---Yes, they were on both sides of the road, burning 28 fiercely, but not as fiercely as they were burning down 29 near the entrance to the road, but certainly if I had 30 stayed and not got through, we would have been killed. 31 So you managed to drive through, I think you indicated,

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17236 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 100 yards or thereabouts?---A good 100 yards and we were 2 then within possibly 20 yards or 50 yards of the 3 corrugated section that leads up to our houses. 4 When you say the corrugated section, it is a section of road 5 that's in a car particularly difficult to 6 traverse?---Well, with a fire up your tail it's not too 7 good because you bounce all over the road. It's quite 8 dangerous. It seems funny that corrugations can be, but 9 in that situation, yes. 10 You got back to your neighbour's place, Dave Baker-Gabb's 11 place?---Yes. 12 And you went to his place?---Yes. They looked after us, Dave 13 and Kate. They're great neighbours. They're all good 14 neighbours up there, almost without exception. They 15 looked after us, and unfortunately when I was driving 16 through the fire I'd put on the headlights. I don't know 17 whether - it's most unlikely there would have been another 18 car coming, but I knew that was probably good practice, 19 and whilst I was there the car wouldn't start and I don't 20 know whether it was because the battery had flattened or 21 whether it was cooked. So we put it on the battery 22 charger that he had there and I complained after about 23 five minutes that it wasn't working and he said, "No, 24 because the power's off." So we were stuck there and 25 ultimately got it started with jumper leads. But whilst 26 we were there the flames were of course a threat and they 27 were fighting them as they were approaching, but there was 28 a sudden change of wind and the flames shot around to the 29 east and I suppose within yards of our northern boundaries 30 and then my son turned up and a neighbour who told us that 31 there was an escape route through his property along a

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17237 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 private road. 2 Was that at about 9 o'clock at night?---Yes, it was night-time. 3 They had come up via the route we identified on the map?---No, 4 from Yow Yow Creek Road. He lives down there and there's 5 about a 400 section of private road. He walked through 6 there to us. Subsequently it turned out he is a member of 7 the local fire brigade. His name is - I forget. It's 8 Steve, Steve and Karen. Steve Gormley and Karen Thompson. 9 They live on Yow Yow Creek Road and he said, "There's a 10 way through here. If you come, I'll show you where to go. 11 Don't drive down the track, it's too potholed. If you 12 drive over the bergen, which is only two or three foot 13 high, under that the road's good." So we hopped in the 14 car and got out that way. 15 As it turned out, your house and property survived the 16 fire?---Survived the fire. 17 And I think you have told us that your neighbour, Garry, also 18 survived the fire?---Yes, he was found safe after the fire 19 by neighbours who took him home and looked after him for 20 the night. 21 Then you spent some time away from your house?---Yes. I was 22 away for two days, I think, before I went back to recharge 23 their firefighting bottles. 24 But your family and your grandson came back and using chainsaws 25 cleared the road to - - -?---They cleared Wild Dog Creek 26 Road so that the CFA could get in and so hopefully they 27 could get in later and it could be used and it was used by 28 Cubby and I when we came up some days later to get in by 29 that road. 30 There was fire in that area for a number of days 31 afterwards?---They stayed in our house for two days and

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17238 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 they fought the fire for three days and I've got photos of 2 them fighting to the south of our property. The fire took 3 an unusual course. The wind changed, it went across to 4 the east, and then it swung around and approached 5 generally the south. 6 Perhaps we might have a look at a couple of those photos at 7 0012. It will come up on the screen in front of you. Is 8 that a photograph of Wild Dog Creek Road?---Yes, it is. 9 Our end, I think. 10 That's at your end?---Yes. 11 That gives some idea of the trees and the road itself?---Yes, 12 I would say since, in the last six or eight months, there 13 have been at least four trees across that road all removed 14 by neighbours because they want to get through, so they 15 clear the trees. 16 We go to 0013?---That's after the fire. I think there's a 17 photo of Axle. That's my grandson's dog. That was the 18 one they took when they were clearing Wild Dog Creek Road 19 from our house back to the main road. This is what fell 20 after we got through. 21 Then at 0014?---I would say that's still - it looks like it's 22 still Wild Dog Creek Road after the fire. 23 Was this a part of the road that you firstly - - 24 -?---I travelled over. 25 You travelled over both ways?---Yes. 26 If we can go to 0017?---That looks like Wild Dog again. 27 In your time in that area, are you aware, Mr Thomas, of any 28 work having been done to the roadside by way of clearing 29 or preventative maintenance in relation to prevent the 30 sort of thing we see over the road there?---Well, 31 I've thought about this. I can remember one occasion when

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17239 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 the CFA conducted an exercise on the road somewhere 2 between where the road runs up Dinsdale Road and our end 3 on the lower Wild Dog Creek Road and they were burning off 4 in the national park to the south of the road, it wasn't a 5 very big burn-off, and there was a chap standing there 6 with a clipboard and my wife was stuck at home, she 7 couldn't get through, and I was trying to get up and 8 I couldn't get past and I said to the chap with 9 the clipboard, and I remember it even though my memory's 10 not all that good, I said, "While you're writing on that 11 clipboard you'd better write down that, if there's 12 anything up here, don't park your fire truck on the road 13 because it'll stop anyone from getting out." And he 14 actually made a note in his book. That's the only time 15 I've seen any fire hazard work, I suppose, fire removal. 16 I can't remember any work done on the road, despite our 17 requests that certain trees which were right on the verge 18 of the road and you couldn't get past, but they would not 19 remove. Nor would the grader drivers. I used to ask them 20 could they have an accident and they'd say no, you 21 couldn't touch a tree like that. So, after the fire there 22 was a man from BigPond, I don't remember what he looks 23 like now, but he did work for BigPond and I said, "Have 24 you noticed that tree down there?" He said, "That's the 25 one that would knock your rear vision mirrors off," and 26 I said, "Yes, that's been annoying me for 20 years and 27 it's still there." And I came back from where I was going 28 and it had been cut off right at the base. He did a good 29 job. As I say, I don't remember what he looked like. I'm 30 not being frivolous; this meant quite a bit to us to get 31 rid of that particular tree.

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17240 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 There are two matters you raise, or concerns about the road. 2 One is Wild Dog Creek Road and it is the state of the road 3 and you indicate in your statement that that's been a 4 source of contention for you with the Nillumbik 5 shire?---Yes. 6 And you have written to them?---Yes. 7 Prior to 7 February 2009 in relation to the state of the 8 road?---Yes, there are letters going long back before 9 then. 10 I will just take you to the reply to one of your letters, which 11 is at 0021. This is of 6 August 2008. It is underlined 12 there, but this is to one of your letters indicating you 13 had raised the safety issue of the road with the shire and 14 that the best way to address that would be to seal the 15 road, but they refer to a "Special charge scheme" and in 16 the next paragraph that, "Council policy requires a 17 60 per cent support level before it would consider an 18 investigation into road construction through a Special 19 Charge Scheme." Was that something that was capable of 20 being taken up?---It might have been if I'd had more 21 energy or hadn't been on the verge of giving up once 22 again. 23 Is there also a policy that you were advised of by the council 24 that indicated that before the council would seal the road 25 it had to be demonstrated it would benefit abutting owners 26 in relation to the maintenance costs?---Yes. 27 Your road travels through a national park and abutting owners 28 seem a rare phenomenon in that area?---There are none. 29 So what's the position now with Wild Dog Creek Road?---It's in 30 the same condition as previously, except we've got the 31 added, I suppose, situation that what would have been the

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17241 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 road that we would escape down, which was the 2 reinstatement of our original access road which was opened 3 up subsequently by the DSE in the presence of the CFA, is 4 now sealed by a locked gate which has been locked on every 5 extreme fire day since it was built, except in the last 6 fortnight it is no longer padlocked. The padlocks are 7 gone. 8 Firstly, is that a road that after 7 February 2009 was opened 9 and a firebreak put in in that area?---Yes, it was put in. 10 There were two roads. I believe one was a containment 11 track which I'm not concerned with. That went from Wild 12 Dog right down to a house on the main road. I have been 13 down it once. It is not really drivable, but I'm told it 14 is a containment track, which is different from a fire 15 track. The fire access track which was put through opened 16 up Dinsdale Road to our end of Wild Dog Creek and it gave 17 us what we had been seeking for nearly 30 years, an access 18 down to what was our original entry. 19 We may have a photograph of that road and the barrier. So, 20 what we are looking at there is the Dinsdale track or 21 road?---Where it ended. I'm not sure if that's their end 22 or our end, if I can use those words. 23 Is that the barrier that you refer to that's been 24 padlocked?---That's the metal gate that was padlocked at 25 the time I made the submission to the Commission. 26 But, since, the padlock has been removed?---Yes, inside the 27 last I would think 10 days or so. 28 In the case of emergency, if that gate is opened, does the 29 track now provide a means of escape, if you like, from 30 Wild Dog Creek Road?---Yes. That would satisfy the 31 residents I was representing, provided we are sure someone

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17242 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 doesn't come along and padlock it again and providing we 2 now let the residents know that they can get down Dinsdale 3 through opening gates on private property where the owner 4 will allow us to go through. 5 Are you aware of any policy of Parks Victoria in relation to 6 maintaining that road or keeping it open?---No, quite the 7 contrary. They seem to be very keen to keep the gate 8 locked. They put it there because we indicated that, as 9 the road was already blocked or barricaded, you couldn't 10 move, and they'd been there for some time, that we would 11 accept gates provided those gates were left openable, and 12 they could have put signs over them or done anything, as 13 long as you could get through. 14 Just finally, Mr Thomas, in relation to Wild Dog Creek Road, is 15 it graded and maintained about once a year by the 16 council?---Once a year. I can remember clearly some years 17 back I'd raised the question of the road being bitumened 18 on that section and they said "We'll provide for it in the 19 next year's estimates." That didn't happen. 20 Is there any other matter that we haven't discussed that you 21 would wish to raise with the Commissioners?---Well, there 22 is another letter that we received from the council which 23 related to these guidelines or criteria which would 24 prevent them doing anything about the road. That one that 25 you mentioned I think Mr Young's name, he is no longer 26 with the council. The last letter I got was from Bill 27 Forrest, the chief executive officer, who is also not with 28 the council and I must add was I felt a very decent chap 29 to deal with and the only person from the council who ever 30 rang up and came up to see what it was all about. But 31 there is a letter from the council, you adverted to it

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17243 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 briefly earlier, which said that it wouldn't benefit 2 anyone if they did that road. But in the same letter, of 3 course, they are insisting that these were the criteria 4 that would stop it, that it had to be paid for by abutting 5 owners. When I pointed out there are none, they said it 6 doesn't meet the other criteria, it wouldn't benefit 7 anyone other than the abutting owners. Of course, we 8 didn't really get an opportunity to go and list possibly 9 100, even more people that would benefit. It meant all 10 the families, all the residents, the visitors, all 11 services, emergency vehicles and the like. They would 12 certainly benefit if the road was made traversable. 13 We might just quickly look at one of those letters which may 14 enlarge on what you are saying, at 0027, which is JCT-6, a 15 letter to you of 1 March 2010. It is indicated in the 16 second paragraph that, "Parks Victoria has confirmed their 17 intention to prevent access to this and to ultimately 18 carry out replanting of the area which had been cleared." 19 That's in relation to Dinsdale Road; is that 20 correct?---That section of road which was formerly closed 21 off which was opened, yes, and now having opened it they 22 now intend to shut it. 23 There is one other matter that I want to ask you about, 24 Mr Thomas, and it is in relation to I think you mention 25 that on your 63rd wedding anniversary, not long after 26 7 February, you were berated by your family in relation to 27 what had gone on on 7 February. Have you changed your 28 course of thinking for bad bushfire risk days?---Well, 29 they certainly convinced me that - I know I was stupid, 30 but my main fault was I didn't consider the risks that 31 I put family members to, to get in, and they were

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17244 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 concerned, so concerned that my grandson got into almost 2 an argument with the police when he couldn't get through 3 and that probably saved his life. I've got no criticism 4 whatsoever of the police, quite the contrary. But that 5 convinced me that I didn't think of anybody but myself, 6 and when another warning came through I was ready to go as 7 soon as my wife was and we cleared out and we'd do it 8 again. Our next option, of course, is to clear out from 9 the shire and that will happen fairly soon. When I say 10 soon, I would think within the next couple of years. For 11 me that's too soon, but still. 12 Thank you, Mr Thomas. 13 COMMISSIONER McLEOD: Just a small question, Mr Thomas. You 14 referred to the firefighting facilities you had around 15 your house, a sprinkler. On the roof, was it?---Yes, you 16 just put them up there. They are these ones that spin 17 around. 18 You also referred to hoses?---Yes. 19 Could you just tell us a little bit about the quality of those 20 appliances. Were they garden hoses or were they fire 21 hoses?---No, I've got a proper yellow fire hose with a 22 fire nozzle connected directly to the pump which is fed 23 from the dam above the house, which is always full, and 24 I replenish that with a permanent pump. So if it gets low 25 I can pump up from the big dam. Also I have at least 11 26 ordinary hose connections around the house and in advance 27 of the house I have two circulating sprays through heavier 28 underground PVC pipe fed from an electric pressure hose 29 and about a four horsepower Honda motor with 30 interconnection provisions so that one can operate without 31 the other or in conjunction, I can use both together, and

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17245 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 I've got non-return valves to stop them going back into 2 the dam and all of those sort of features. It is pretty 3 well protected against an ordinary fire. But the biggest 4 hazard there we have - I cleared the front paddocks and 5 that's where our animals used to graze and where my 6 neighbour currently grazes his sheep because I've got no 7 animals there. Our biggest danger is the road. The fires 8 always seem to run along the roads because that is where 9 all the vegetation is, and that's happened everywhere. My 10 own observations are that I've visited all the areas up 11 around Kinglake and Pheasant Creek and even if there is no 12 ground material the fires seem to approach houses like a 13 hungry boy at a smorgasbord. They see a house and they 14 want to get over and eat it. Everywhere I've looked, the 15 houses in many places you wonder why they burnt. 16 The fact that you didn't have your hoses and your pumps and 17 your sprinklers in operation was related to how little 18 warning you had of the approaching fire?---On this 19 occasion I had - on previous occasions when we tested them 20 and had them going, tried them out, knew they gave a good 21 cover and they kept everything wet, but there is a limited 22 amount of time that a petrol motor will run and I thought 23 if the power goes off, which it almost certainly will, 24 these will only run so long and I saw no point of starting 25 them up before the fire was close enough. On this 26 occasion, when it was close it was too late. 27 I couldn't - the amount of time it would have taken me to 28 start up that Honda, which is a brand new motor, by the 29 way, and I still never know whether the choke is on or 30 off. I've written out little things to remind me. 31 They're always tricky, the electric motor was just a

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17246 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 matter of hitting a switch, but there was not even time to 2 do that. There was barely time to get in our car and go. 3 Had the fires been visible at a further distance from your 4 house in the direction you had been observing, what would 5 your intention have been? To have left or to have put 6 your fire preparations into action?---I would have started 7 them all up. Given that the fire wasn't as intense as it 8 turned out to be, I would have thought probably get them 9 going and clear out, just let them go until they ran out. 10 I did tell my neighbour not to try and save our house. 11 So it wouldn't have been your intention to have stayed and 12 tried to defend your house?---Not at that stage because my 13 children had told me I was too old and they were right. 14 I couldn't clamber up on a roof like I used to. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN: Dr Lyon? 17 DR LYON: I have no questions for Mr Thomas, but I have a 18 document and a map that I would like to provide by way of 19 explanation, if I may. 20 CHAIRMAN: Yes . 21 DR LYON: Because Mr Thomas has taken the trouble to come 22 before the Commission and give evidence despite his 23 considerable health problems, on behalf of the MAV and the 24 I think it can be said that he deserves 25 an explanation as to what the situation is. 26 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 27 DR LYON: We have provided an explanation in writing which 28 I have handed up to the Commission, and that explains very 29 much what is said in relation to Wild Dog Creek Road, that 30 there Wild Dog Creek Road either needs to be declared a 31 strategic connecting road in order for the substantial

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17247 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 works that need to be undertaken to occur, or there would 2 be a special levy charged on the residents. There is an 3 explanation given as to that. 4 Perhaps the more important issue, though, is the 5 provision of a means of escape along Dinsdale Road. Can 6 I just take a couple of moments to explain what's 7 happening there. On this map that's been skillfully 8 annotated by my instructor you'll see that it says in 9 about the middle of the screen "Unopened sections of 10 Dinsdale Road" and there are two sections, so exactly 11 where the pen is pointing there. What's been determined 12 is that that land that runs on and abuts the Kinglake 13 National Park, that's the land, the portion of the road 14 that's under the control of Parks Victoria. That is not 15 to be opened. It is not a road. It has never been a 16 road. There has been a firebreak put in there, but it is 17 deemed unsuitable to be opened as a road. 18 In the circumstances, what the council is doing 19 at the moment is, if you drop below where it says 20 "Unopened sections of Dinsdale Road", where it says 21 "Melway" you will see there is a pen line of a track and 22 it says under that, "Track through private property 23 connecting to Yow Yow Creek road." The council is in 24 negotiation with the private property - it is completed. 25 The council has negotiated with the private property owner 26 for that access track to be opened on days of fire danger 27 so that that will create an access from Wild Dog Creek 28 Road through to Yow Yow Creek Road, which can be used by 29 residents in the area. 30 Further to that, and potentially more 31 importantly, at the present time there is an application

.Wordwave:MB/SK 31/03/10 17248 THOMAS XN Bushfires Royal Commission BY MR RUSH 1 before VCAT for a subdivision of an area leading off 2 Buttermans Track and you will see the Buttermans Track 3 commences in the left-hand corner of the map, it goes down 4 and underneath the map. As a condition of the 5 subdivision, the council is petitioning VCAT that, if the 6 subdivision is to be granted, there should be a road 7 leading north-south from Wild Dog Creek Road down to 8 Buttermans Track, which would provide a further means of 9 access for the residents of Wild Dog Creek Road. They are 10 the matters. 11 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you, Dr Lyon. 12 MR RUSH: Thank you, Commissioners. May Mr Thomas be excused? 13 CHAIRMAN: We will include that as part of the exhibit. 14 MR RUSH: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN: Thank you for giving your evidence. You are 16 excused. 17 <(THE WITNESS WITHDREW) 18 CHAIRMAN: We adjourn now until 11 o'clock tomorrow. 19 ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 1 APRIL 2010 AT 11 AM 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

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