Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 1924

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Supply. [25 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. ll35

FRIDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER, 1924.

The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bortram, :lfaree) took the chair at 10 a.m. QUESTIO::'\S. CosT oF iVATERIXG CANE CRoPs IN lNKEmu:-; IRRIGATION AREA. :VIr. SWAYNE (Jiirani) asked the Secre­ tary for l:'ublic Lands- " \Vhat has been the cost to date of watering the cane crop now being hanestcd in the Inkerman Irrigation Area-(u) the \\·or king expenses alone; (b) total expense, iriCluding interest, redemption, and depreciation on plant and buildings, &c." The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) replied- " The information will be found in ·the Annual Report of the Commisc,ioner of Irrigation, which will be available m a few days." Jh'. Foley.] 1136 Que~#ons. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

LEGISLATION TO DECLARE ANZAC DAY A LEGAL OPINION in re CoxTROL OF SuGAR COMPULSORY 1'\AT!ONAL HOLIDAY. INDUSTRY BY CouNCIL OF AGRICDLTURE. Mr. RODERTS (East 1'oo woomba) asked Mr. S\VAYKE ( lfirani) asked the Secre­ the Premier- tary for Agriculture- " 1. Has his attention been drmYn to " "Will he, befow the sessien closes the following lBgal opinion road, and introduce an ~mondment of the Holiday~ commm,t thercon, at the last meeting of Act to provide for Anzac Day being the Mackay District Council:- declared a compuisory holiday?'' " Mr. Powell r0ad the opinion of Mr. Hutcheon, which was summarioed in the The PRE.:11IER (Hon. E. G. Theodore following:- Chillagoc) replied- ' (i.) So far as the Acts enable any­ " 'l'his course is not considered adYis­ body to exerciso control of any able." industry, the Council of Agriculture will exercise that control. (ii.) 'The caneg-rowers could only RuLES OF CouRT RELATING TO CoxsTITUTION control the sugar industry by firct OF JURY DISTI!ICTS; JURY DISTRICT OF controlling the Council of Agriculture. ToowooMBA. (iii.) As to funds-(a) Canegrowers will necessa;rily contribute a large Mr. RODERTS (Bast Toon·oomba) asked the Attorney-General- portion of any ' general levy ' for,. administratiYe purposes; they will " 1. Will he lay upon the table of the have no practical control whateYer uf House copies of the existing Rules of the expenditure of this money con­ Court made under the pro vi ·.Ions of tho tributed by them. (b) In the' case of Jury. Acts, 1867 to 1923, relating to the · particular levies ' made upon them, censtltution of jury districts? they \Yi!l haYo no control of the spend­ ing of these mo:1eyd, though regula­ " 2. \Vhat is the present description tions may be made ' if dDe<~wd neces­ of the jury district of TomYoomba? sary' (i.e., by the Uovernor in " 3. \Vhat parts of the Tcowoomba and Council), vroYiding that the money East_ Toowoe'!'ba elect'?rates, respectiYcly, paid under these ' pa·rticular levies ' are mcluded m such district?" shall be spent only in the interests of the particular industry or section which contributes the monev. But it would The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. J. still be the Council· which controlled Mullan, Flindcrs) replied- the spending of the money. (In regu­ " 1. The Rules of Comt were laid latiolls already made proYiding for on the table of the House on 29th J ulv leYies which are really ' particular 1924. . ' leYie5,' no provision has been made that the money shall be spent in the " 2. See Rule 1. interpsts of the particuhr branches " 3. See answer to No. 2." which contribute.) r ndc'r section 11 (7), the Act Adyisory Board cmlld be appointed to achise the Council in SECRETARY's ReMuNERATION AND BALAxrE- respect to any particular rrudtcrs, and the expenses of those Boards would SHEET OF ToRRES STRAIT PILOT SERncE. eomo out of the 'fund'; Lut, even if Mr. POLLOCK (GTcgory), for 1\Ir. BED­ a Sugar Advisory Board vvcro FORD (Wan·cgo), asked the Treasurer- appointed, it would have no power except to 'advise '-ancl the Council " 1. Has any decision been reached of Agricultnro ncccl not act on the on t~e petition of the Torres Strait pilot advice. To safeguard the sugar servwe to the Queensland Marine Board people, therefore, the Act needs p_raying that the secretary's remunera: dra'."'tic an1cndnwnt. Even jf a Sugar twn be fixed on the not instead of the Standing Committee of the Council gro_ss earnings? were appointed under the regulations " 2. 'Will he instruct the l1Iu rine Doard with complete pow0r defined, it would that accounts be rendered to the member< not he 'Rafc,' us the regulations could of the Torres Strait pilot service and be amended in five minutes ''"hcnever terms adjusted every six months. no tho spirit moves those in control. balance-sheet having been pmcluced to the " Mr. Powell said that vas the opinion pilets for years?" he had expressed. They founcl that the sugar and dairying industries contribute 'I'he TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Thcodorc, about £1,500 out of £1,800, yet the sug-.· r Chillagoe) replied- industry only had four votes"? "2. As this indicates that an amend­ " 1. Information is being obtained upon ment of the Primary Produce-rs Act is the matter, and an earlv decision will necessary to enable the organi~ntion to be made. • function on a commodity basis, what are 9 "2. If the majority of the pilots .desire his intentions in the matter " 'turns' adjusted every six months con­ sideration will be given t<> the request. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTL.:RE The regulations provide that the ' turn (Hon. W. N. Gillies, Eacham) replied- register' shall be adjusted in February " 1. No; and no reference to this of each year, and a statement prepared matter appears in the minutes of last annually showing tho earnings of each meeting of the Mackay District Council. pilot and his aggregate expenses." "2. See No. 1." Cotton Industry Act [26 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. ll37

I:;;QU!RIES BY CO}D!ISSIONER OF PRICES in re compared with 7,927 growers of annual cot­ CosT QJ;' PRODt:OTION oF BeTTER, 'WHEAT, ton last year, and 356 growers of ratoon cot­ OR BACON. ton. I am not going to say that this relaxa­ tion of the embargo will not increase the Mr. DEACON (Cunninr;ham) asked the number nf ratoon growers. In fact, I Chief Secretary- bdieve that the majority of growers in the " 1. flas the Commissioner of Prices Central district will grow annual cotton made any inquiries recently re costs of and ratoon cotton side by side just the same production of butter, wheat, or bacon? as cane gro,vel's ha Ye annual cane coming in "2. If so, what are the cost" of produc­ ·while ratoon cane is growing in another tion on each of those products'! " area. I believe that, so long as the present m·ice for ratoon cotton is maintained in The PREMIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, the old country, the growing of ratoon cotton •f hillar;oe) replied- in this State will be profitable. There " 1 and 2. No." is only one thing that is likely to prevent success, and that is a continuation of the quarrPl betwPen those who prefer ratoon ·.COTTON IKDUSTRY ACT AMENDMENT cotton and those who favour annual cotton. BILL. If that quarrel continues-politicians are INITIATION IN C011ifiiTTEE. largely responsible for its continuance now­ (Jllr. Pollock, G1·cgory, in the chair.) it is going to damage tho prospects of sel ling ra to on cotton. On the passage of The SECRE'I ARY FOR AGRICUL­ this Bill I think that quarrel might cease, TURE (Hon. W. N. Gillies, Eaeharn): I eo that ratoon cotton can be given a fair beg to nlove- trial. I do not want to be put on the " That it is desirable that a Bill be defence- introduced to amend ' The Cotton Indus­ try Act of 1923' in certain particulars." Mr. KERR: You are. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICUL­ The main object of this measure is tn carry TURE: I am not. Hon. members o:oposite into effect the intention of the Government are in the dock at present. New that the to relax the embargo and allow the growing Government have relaxed the embargo on of first ratoon cotton. It is proposed that the growing of ra to on cotton, : do not v. ant the growing of ratoon cotton may be allowed to be continually emphasising the fact that under conditions approved of by the Coun­ good annual cotton is pref2rable t() good cil of Agriculture on behalf of tho grower. ratoon cotton, as practically every man "The Bill also provides. in accordance who understands cotton marketing knows. 1vith the desire of the Council of .\gri­ I do not want to keep on saying that, and >Cnlture as representing tho growers, that I hope it will not be necessary for me to power shall be taken by regulation to make do so after this Bill has passed. Everyone a levy on all cotton, provided that 75 per "hould agree to g-ive ratoon cotton a fair cent. of the growers ag;reo to that course by trial. The Government are prepared to referendum. The regulations may also pro­ do that and allow the farmerP to have their vide what that levy shall be. and the object own way with regard to the growing of first is to huild up a fund to c·otablish or acquire rotoons under C'Onditions agreed to by the -co-operative ginneries, etc. growers. Immediately the embargo as lifted Those are two principles contained in the by the Cabinet the duty devolved upon me Bill. but a number of other amendments and the officers of tho department of 8etting d the principal Act are included. which out the conditions that arc necessarv to are practically all comequential. There is protect the growers of annual cotton." In no occ·Lsion for a big discussion at this stage. my opinion these conditions are the minimum Th,-, Bill is broug·ht in in accordance that will allow protection to be secured- with thf' promise f made to a deputation " 1. Licensing of all cotton growers." when intimating the decision of the Govern­ ment on the question. After the Premier's Exemption will be provided for on the same .return from the old countr:<·, when the Cabi­ lines as is contained in sin1ilar legislation in net had fullv considered the matter it was Queensland- <:lecidod to ailow the coiton growers to grow " 2. Government guarantee not to ratoon cotton. The question whether that appl;· to ratoon cotton but advances at decision is right or wrong can only, as I ginnery may be arranged from time to have already said, be proved by time. The time." Government havc not changed their opinion with regard to the relative value and quality The cotton guarantee is now shared by the ()f the two kinds of cotton, or of the danger CommomveaJth Government. Senator Pearce of disease occurring in stand-over or ratoon was most emphatic at the recent conference coHon. \Ve have not changed our views that the Commonwealth GoTernment were not with regard to that, but the growers will going to guaranteo ra toon C'Otton in any be allowed to grow l'atoon cotton if they ~hape or form. Further conditions arc- comply 1vith the conditions proposed in the " 3. All seed to he supplied through Bill, and which have been approved of by the the Department of Agriculture and representai·ivE'o of the growers. I might Stock. just read those conditions became they have " 4. Ratoon cotton to be harvested, berm accepted by the renresentatives of the ginned, and marketed separately. growen, and in my opinion renresent the "5. Heavy penalties for mixing ratoon minimum of safeg-uards which the Govern­ and annual cotton, with cancellation of ment are justified in imposing to m·otect license for second offence. the large body of cotton growers, who are growersc of annual cotton. This year there "6. Close season to be provided, with are 7,454 growers of annual cotton in the total destruction of all stalks, field 'State and 82 growers of ratoon cotton, as debris, etc., by fire.

1924-4 A Hon. W. N, Gillies.] 1138 Cotton Industry Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

"7. Any other conditions which are cerned, are prepared to give way and allmv n<'c>'Sary to make the above decision the ratconing of cotton. effective. (SeverYas allowed­ rJrimary produce they grow from the tirne it this can be proved by " IIamard"-the ]pavt•s their farm un1·1l it reaches the home industrv w<:mld be ruined. The hon. of the CO!O.·Llll'Or. c:nti) that princi)1JO is gentlen;cn now says that he has not altered v~iYC'l .ally adopted the prinwry producer hio mind on that point in any particular. rill not Le "ble to carrv on his industn with The SECRETARY FOR AGRICC:LTURE: I did an:vthing llk0 proftt ~to himscF. _\t the not say " in any particular." present time there is too much profit made by peo~1Jc coming in bctr ( the grower and Th0 CIIAIR:\fAN: Order! The hon. C()l1S1!t11Pr. Th:.~t is one the rt· 1::ons why gent.l0rnan rnust accept the }flinister's ex­ tlF~ prodnrer cnnnot p;::>.t a dC'CCl:J.t nrire for planation. his produce. The produrr~r also r0cognises Mr. MOHGAN: The Dill is a most impor­ that the e profits make his produce cxces­ tant one, and one with which I am entirely oiYCl:: dear. and that. ,,·hen "'':V foodstuff in accord) but it scen1s an extraordinary 1::.ocon 1 l'B f'xces~iYd~v d01 r, the consunwr does thing that the Government have been forced not consume it to the same extent. The to do something which they do not think prin1ary producer is anxious tlud rhe con­ is right. Slnner \:',hall p:ct nc!'0s~-1rv commodities at a rpao::-onab]c nrice. Fie c,'rtainlv 1.1 ants r:.i"Jore The SECRI~TARY FOR AGRICcLTcRE: Time and than he is getting at the prec.er'lt for growing again the hon. gentleman adYo< ated in this 1hose crops. It is apparent by the figures House the exportation of beef with nodules. 'nailabl·e, not only in Qucnsbnd but in the Mr, MORGAN: I am still of the same ot!-er States-perhaps not" to such ~n extent opmwn. Queensland's beef has been abso­ in Quccmland-that people arc le,Ying the lutely victimised by the farcical action of land and coming into the cities because those in Great Britain in rejecting it because they are not. getting ~ufficicnt remuneration of the presence of nodules. for the work they ·tre doing. If money is The CHAIRMAN : Order ! offering in a nartiC'ular ea lling; Dr trade people will go almost through fir'e and water The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTC:RE: One mem­ to reach the localitv where that money is to ber of your party said he preferred beef with be made. \Ve kno~v how, in order to' reach nodules in it. loraliti0s 1\ here g-old n1ining is carrie-d on Mr. MORGAN: I have not changed my succcssfullv, prop!<' will undem·o almmt any opinion in connection with the nodule ques­ hardship because they know they will have tion. the opportunity of makirg money and probt money to rear his children, and, growing ratoon cotton. I am pleased that this aft{'r r('reiving a. primarY cduration. he can Dill has been introduced, because the people Bond them awav to rerciye a seeondarv edu­ will not now find it Recessarv to break the cation, and thli"s give them the same educa­ law in order to grow ratoon cotton. A tional facilities as the children in the large great number have broken the law. They centres of population rereiYe. I therefore have been comp~msated by the Government claim that it would not be wrong to place for breaking the law; and now the Govern­ a leYy on the cotton crop if the cotton-grower ment, owing to the fact that t_here are a has first had an opportunity of voting on large number of these men directly con- the proposal and .agrees to it. [Hon. W. N. GiUies. Cotton Industry Act [26 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 113(}>

I am also of the opinion that, if there is and of the Central District Council of Agri­ any profit in the industry. the growers culture and of the Cottongrowors' Union. should rccc•ive it. Thov should nDt be con­ The t <. ombined action forced the Minister to. tent with a certain pr{ce for their product, introduce this Bill. The hon. gentlBman but, if there is a proGt in the cotton-see·d, still claims that the removal of the embargo. oil and other by-products, they are c "titled on rat0on cotton is against his own opinion to hayo it, b, cause to a certain extent it is and against the determined opinion of the· their O\Yll property, and there is !1{) doubt Gon•rnment, and that thev still consider that they should be able to get cotton-seed annual cotton is better than" ratoon. mort! to feed their dair-; ea ttle or stud stock. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It is an It is onl;; rivht that they should be able to open question. get those by-products at a much cheaper rate than wc.uld be possible if the industry were Mr. CORSER: The hon. gentleman said controlled by pri.vato enterprise. The that it \Yas the wish of the Council of Agri­ Government sold cotton-seed last year at £1 culture that the Brnbargo should be removed, a ton. and that is why he i, taking this action. The SECRETARY FOR Aom :cLTURE: How Why did the hon. gentleman introduce anti­ much did we pay the cotton-growers in the ratcon legislation when the Central District. i!rst in,, tan eo? \"V c paid them 5d. a l)Qund. Cuur;<:il ot "\.griculturo met him and appealBd to lnm to allow experiments to be carried Mr. :!'.!ORGA:'\1": :'\rot at all. If there was out and a. cel'tain amount of ratoon to be no SL'ecl in the cotton. the liEt \Vould hanJ grown for a vear or two to enable the hon. been worth ls. 3d. a p~und. It is rccognis d t;cnt1cman an~! those in authority to seo what that it takes 3 lb. of orclinurv cotton-seed ratoouing meant to this cou11try. I undor­ to make 1 lb. of lint, so that, a"ftc·r the sec-cl ·tand the Minister said that the trouble is extmcted from the lint, the farmer \vould about ratoon cotton and the n'ecessity for get ls. 3d. a lb. allowing the growth of ratoon was duo to a The ClLUFJviA)i': Order! The hon. qu,nrcl brought about by politicians. '\Vas 1ncrnhC'r ha8 i..~·onc a long \Yay frorn tho l right in understanding that that -was ·what question. It is proposed- the :!'.liliistor said-that this is a trouble " To introduce et Bill to amend the brought a bont by politicians? Cotton Indus\J'y Act of 1923 in certain The SECRETARY FOR AoRICULTL'RE: No. lHtrticular~." The }Iini,tcr intimated that these particulars l\lr. CORSER : vYell, to use the J\Iinister's G\\'ll \Yards, that it was a quarrel, the fault are to give l)O~.:cr to the fanpcrs to grow of. politicians. If I am wrong in that, the raloun cot1on, a11d power tD r::usc a lcYv for l\Iun:Jtcr v.-ill correct 1no now. Did he sa v the pu:q)Q;-;e of ar:quiring or c;::;tabli~hing ll1at or not 9 I£ he claims that it is the fault giEncrics. The hon. n1cm bcr is not dealing· o£ pclilicians, I claim that it is proof that with tho~c nmttcr·~ at all. I .an1 not going l ho politicians have been a godsend to the to allcnY a full dress di!SCUf>-ion on the Bill g-rowers if they have compelled the Govern­ at this stage. ment, against their wishes. to recognise the Mr. :YIORGA:'\1": I am referring to the gro'·""'S. If that is so, it is not a fault, but second of tho-:-e rcsolutiolls-the one stating surncthmg to the credit of those politicians. that it. is desirable that the farmer should If the Minister will have it that it is the 1nak(' ~t living. For that purpose it is desir­ fault of politicians, and that two or three able for the farmer to take over the industry ,-,wmbcrs of the Council of AgTiculture have and gin and distribute the cotton-seed as he induced him to introduce this legislation, desires. I an1 not anxious for a full-dress then it is to their credit for having con­ de h .. te on this matter. I am very pleased to nnced him enm against his will. It i,, know that the Government arc introducing ra' hc'r " peculiar position to be in. The this amcltdment of the Act. The Act has l'.Iinister made some remarks as to levies for bePn in c~ncration for twch·e "wnths and the purpose of acquiring ginncries. I am I f0d :.:.urC that other arncncln1~~nts m~y bo not going to support a proposition-whether neec~;.ary; but the trea tn1( nt of seed is ono it is approved by certain members of the of tlw mo.;.,t itnnortant thing;;;, and is likely Council of Agriculture or anybody else-in to bccon1P one af Dnr gTc•aicst industrit\3. It favour of acquiring the present over-capi­ would be advisable to place e.ve17 wcPssarv talised ginnerios at their t-otal cost and if amendment in the _\et now. In anv cas0. I that is' the intention of the Gov~1·nment, :vn ghd to 1d:O·\' thnt the GoYf'rni~r-ut ~re and the hon. gentleman can show that this going to amrond the Act in the dirc·tion request is placed in the Bill on the advice indicait cl bv the Minister. and th1t. notwith­ of certain individuals who are representa­ etanding the fact that thPv m·e otill in favour tives of the. cotton-growers, as ho clai1ns, cif annual cotton, the;.- ar0 goinp; to give the through the Council of Agriculture, I say, fanner a rhanrc to g:ro-;;;• ratnnn. a, a representative of cotton-growers, that I am not g-oing to support any such idea with­ Mr. CORSER (IJurnr-11): The Secretary out ''coing first what is contained in the for Agriculture st •.tee! that the Bill is the proposal. outcome of a deputation to him from the The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTURE: 'Wait Council of Ap;riculture. Two or three gentle­ till you sec the Bill. men met hero. no doubt at the desire of the Minist- r and possibly by arranp;emont with ::\fr. CORSER: Certainly I will reserve him as Pr'''ident of the Council of Agricul­ mv remarks in that ,-egarcl until I do see the ture, and that gave the hon. gentleman, to a Bill. It is a most important ques' ion. The certain extent. the opportunity to extricate principle of co-operative ginnm·ies has been hirmelf from the trouble in which he had advocated, urgBd, and moved for bv hon. landed the Government and himself. The members on this side, but I am not going to hon. p;entleman said the amending Bill is "vallow the bait if the proposal is to take the outcome of a request of the Council of over the existing ginneries without consult­ Agriculture. It is the outcome of determina­ ing the individual growers. From what I tions of the growers throughout the State have learned of the Bill from the remarks oC Mr. Corsm·.] 1140 Cotton Industry Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

the Minister, I am not going to say that I control of their industry. If he is not going will support that part of the Bill. to guarantee the price of ratoon cotton, then The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: There let the grower handle that side is no proposal in !he Bill to take over [10.30 a.m.] of the industry. Let it be ginneries. handled by those who believe that ratoon is good, and not by a Govern­ Mr CORSER : There is a proposal in the ment or a body which holds that ratoon is Bill to institute a levy for the purpose of not good cotton. I think it is better that acquiring ginneries. r'atoon cotton shoul-d be handled by its The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTURE: If 75 .per friends and those who produce it than by -eent. of the grower> agree. You do not those who sav that it is an unprofitable and believe in that? unmarketable commodity. Mr. CORSER: I believe in it if 75 per Mr. SWAYNE (,1Iirani): I do not wish t.o -cent. vote in favour of the proposal; but 'ay more at this stage of the Bill than that they are not likely to vote in favour of the mere fact of the Bill being before us is taking over ginneries that are over-capi­ a striking illustration of the obstinacy of the talised at the total cost price. Minister in charge of the department. I The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You do find on referring to " Hansard " that at the not think they have sufficient intelligence to very last opportunity last session he was vote on the question'? aske-d-indeed, almost implored-by the Oppo­ sition w hold his hand and to get more Mr. CORSER: They will have sufficient information than he had then in his pos­ intelligence, but it all depends on what they session before he put a ban on ratoon cotton. ar-e asked to vote on. Does the :Minister "When speaking on the vote on the Estimates intend to ask for a -,-ote on a clear-cut issue for " Department of Agriculture and Stock­ in favour of co-operative enterprise, or is the Cotton Trading Fund " last session, as vote going to be on this questwn: "Are you reported in " Hansard," page 1927, I mid- in favour of acquiring the ginneries that " I would like to urge on the Minister, have been alr-eady established? " That is in view of the facts that are constantly the point. It all depends on how broad the coming to light in regard to ratoon .question is that they are asked to vote on. cotton, that before we definitely pass this They will be intelligent enough. They will vote he should seriously consider whether approve of co-operativ-e ginneries, but they more consideration should not be given do not want forced on them the over-capi­ to the question of ra to on cotton." talised · ginneries that have been found unprofitable, without full information as to The hon. member for ::\ormanby, who repre­ price. sents a large number of cotton-groVit~ers, in following me. said- The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE: Don't put up Aunt Sallies in order to knock them " I cordially support the contention of down. the hon. member for JYiirani, and earn­ estly pl-ead with the Minister to defer Mr. CORSER: I am not doing !hat. The the operation of the Cotton Industry Minister says that good annual cotton i ·· Act for six months." .better than good ratoon cotton. Nobody has denied that. \Vhat we did deny was that Through the hon. gentleman's obstinacy on ratoon cotton was valueless and was not leg, were responsible for the !Iftmg of the ban th0n I think we shall have a good chance of on ra to on cottDn were those in the umon of success. growers in the Central District. Through HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! the strength of their organication and by Mr. KERR (Nnoggera) : I realise that the testing the marke~ . the~ have blown to message from His Excellency the Governor smithereens the 1\hmstcr s contentiOn that in regard to this Bill limits the appropria­ ratoon cotton is not legal tender. They h::ve· tion to certain purposes, and I would like found their markets. and they are gomg to suggest to the Minister that he should io market their product now. The growers delay the Bill for a week in order to seck in the Central District have been able to from His Excellency a recommendation for achieve their ends by pressing their require­ an appropriation sufficient to enable him to ments on the Government. It seems almost make an alteration in the Bill to include impossible to reconcile the statements m::de· compcn"ation for those growers of ratoon bv the Minister during his second readmg cotton who obeyed the law. If that were speech on the Cotton Industry Bill with the· done, we would not be met later with the remarks he has made to-day. It would excuse that the necessary appropriation has be almost impos,ible to believe that ~he. same· not been recommended by His Excellency. Minister handled both Bills. He IS mtro­ ducing to-clay only what the Opposition advo~ One of the principal points I wish to deal cated twelve months ago-nothi_ng more. ana with at this stage has referenc.e to co-opera­ nothing less. To-day we are m a positiOn tive ginneries. H is quite apparent to me. to advocate compensrttion for the men who from the statements made in the Press and were misled last year by th~ Minister throng~ otherwise, that there is some idea on the part refusing to accept the advice of. the Opposi­ of the Government of inviting the growers tion. Had he accepted our aqvice, no such at some stage or other to take over the contentious qnestion would haYe developed. existing ginneries. It is well known that I hope that the Minister will give very denp those ginneries cost .a big- amount of n1oncy, consideration to the points that have been and that they were possibly over-capitalised raised in this Chamber. The Government If that be so, thr- Minister should take are in a position to know whether the exist­ every precaution not to force them on the ing ginnerics are a fair propositio': to. t_he· ~;rowers. He proposes in the Bill that growers and they should make all 111qmnes levies should be made to establish a fund so that' the growers will not be forced to to acquire ginneries or build new ones. and take over something that may be ov!'r­ he should rea b.' that this question is capitalised. The Government sho~ld give of intense moment to those who will haYe serious consideration to that questiOn and to pay. Had he tackled this question as giYe full information to the growers, so that it should have lceen tackled-that is, 111 the growers will not be placed in a false the same way as the Sug-ar Works Act of position. 1922 dcrclt with the establishment of new sugar-mills-his Government would have had Mr. TA YLOR (Windsor): If I understood to find £150.000 to gin the present crop. the Minister's remarks aright, a leYy cannot Is he prepared, or are the Government pre­ be imposed unless it has been agreed to by pared, to assist the cotton-growers of QueenS­ 75 per cent. of the growers. land in a sensible way ? He must realise The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: That is the impossibility of the growers raising at this stage at least £150.000 by means of true. levies. Does this Bill. under the message Mr. TAYLOR: I cannot think the Govern .. from His Excellency, include any provision ment or the Minister would be so foolish· Mr. Taylor.] J.l42 Cotton Industry Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

as to say that the levies were for the com­ pres

CITY OF BRISBANE BILL. satisfactory government of the whole area: SECOND READING-RESUli!PTION OF DEBATE. of Brisbane. It is .an enormous area. The principle of local government has always iYlr . .i.\100RE (1lubigny) (who "as greeted been in the direction of decentralisation with Oppositwn cheers) said: This Bill is rather than of centralisation, and to allow llOL an Important Bill to the whole of Queens­ people ·who live in varioJJs districts to build land in some ways, but the vanous prin­ up those districts in the way they consider ciplBs coutamed m it will have verv far­ boot for themselves according to their neces­ r·eaching effects. There is no doubt {rmt it sities and the amount of money theo: have is going to have a very important bearing to spend. If .any advantages are gomg to on the large section of the community who accnP to the outlying portions-that is. out­ live m and around Brisbane. \V hen the side the 5-mile area which the Home Socre­ ~\1inistcr was movmg the second reading of tarv has delineated on the map, at any rate, the Bill he gave a very lucid explanation wit'hin the next twenty-five years-the Min­ from his point of view, a Yery careful analY'~is ister was very careful not to tell us what as to the reasons for introducing it in the those advantages are going to be. form in which it has been introduced the Tho HO :liE SECRETARY: I showed you the benefits which would be likely to accr{l8 to di~.1dvantages. certain scctr<;Hls, and the wisdom of having the whole o! thB proposed area included in Mr. MOORE: The ::Ylinister showed the the Bill. He said that the two previous disadvantages to the inner area of Brisbane, Bills had served their purpose, inasmuch ,as but he did not show us altogether the dis­ they had giVen people ground for di .cussion advantages to the outside areas, nor did he and the basis on which they could firmly tell us what advantageo those people were establish mumcipal government. Those Bills going to receive. If the Gov~rnmen~ bring certainly gave gl'ound for discussion, but 1 in a Bill in which they are gomg to mclude do not thmk they formed much of a basis. a large section of the community, and they The first Bill \Yas too long and complicated can o'nly show that the inner section is going to enable people to diecover what was to get an ad,-antage_ while the outside sec~ion involved in it. The Bill introduced last is not going to rec01ve any, we want a httle session certainly evoked a good deal of dis­ further information to enable us to analyss cussion, and so far as I could gather, the the position and see exactly how that se?tion consensus of opinion on the part of the local is going to stand 14nder the propose·d Bill. authorities was that the area was too large. The Homo Secrctnr:; said that there was . The powers given under this Bill are a division of opinion as to whPthcr the Simply enormous. Possiblv the Minister will method of absorption of the outside are~s' think it peculiar if I say" that there is not, should be by the dircd method proposed m m my opmwn, sufficient protection for the the mcasnre or whetll"r it should be by a ratepayers. \Ve have always held at con­ gradual process. In mj- opinion, i~ should be ferences of local authorities that if we are direct, only if the hc:;:Jen thereby Imposed o_n to ha vc local government, it sho~ld be local the surrounding outside areas as a whole IS g?verr:ment, and should not be subject to the not too great. I can quite see that there are dicta twn of Orders in Council. This Bill is advantages in the proc~~s recommended by g,iving local goYernment with all the protec­ the Minister. but I can see also a great tion under the Local Authorities Act wiped number of disadvantages. out-or probably it will be wiped out. Tl1c Minister also asked- I want to speak this mornirw from the " vVhat would be the positlon of . a point of view of the difference" in benefit Greater Brisbane which was confined nr which will_ accn;e to the people of Brisbane its area to a 5-mile radius, while the m connectiOn With the two area' which have whole of the outside residential areas­ been mentioned. I will take the smaller were allowed to he divided and sub­ area which the Minister himself marked out divided, wit.hout the city ha.ving any say because it seems a. reasonable area and on~ in that most important matter?" in which the density of population' is fairh· As a matter of fact, other people haYe some, equal, and then the outside area in which th~ say in the question of subdivision, whic?. IS densit~ of populat!on is also fairly equal. In fully controlled by the Local Authonttes :UY opmwn, the Bill should only be passed in Acts. Last year we made a large nurr;~er Its present form with the big area if the bene­ of amendments to the Jl,ocal Authonhes fit to the whole of the people .affected can be Acts for the very purpose of keeping: an effec­ secured _without casting too big a burden on tive eye on the subdiYision of various a:·eas one .secbon of the community which happens throtwhout Queensland, so that they might to hve m the more sparsely-settled districts. not b~ too small, ape! so that there might be The Home Secretary appears to think that some uniformity of plan. there is everything satisfactory in a big area The HOJ\IE SECRETARY: \Ye want uni­ because, in his vision of fifty vears hence' formity. he hopes ·to see Brisbane what "he imao-ine~ it should then be. A lot of things have to be J',fr. MOORE: Is there likelv to be uni­ considered. such as uniformitv of plan sym­ formity merely because we have a Citv. of metrical design, comfort, and health: We Brisbane Act? I am verv doubtful. I thmk quite admit that. But if uniformity of that the uniformitv in the various areas will design and plan is to be secured, it must not dcptmd upon the necessities of those districts be at an expense which will not be counter­ as they grow. balanced by 'any benefit to be received by the The HOME SECRETARY : They am growing people ,_-ho are living in the outside area. very fast. The object of the Bill is to have uniformitv Mr. MOORE : They are growing fairly in the goycrnment of Brisbane. That is ail well, but the plau of that growth is along right if the areas selected coincide with the the various main roads and oth: r arteries community of interest of the people in ihe of communication. Settlement develops along outlying parts. We must have that com­ those arteries on a fairly definite plan, and munity of interest if we are going to have the Local Authorities Act gives full poweF [.Mr. Moore. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER-] City of Brisbane Bill. 1145 to control the undue subdiYision of land. I were read, but as it would be rather tedious have here a table from which I wish to to read the whole of these figures, I would read certain portions in dealing with the like to obtain permission to put the table question of the community of interest. It in, so that the information may be available gives details of the population within a to hon. members. 5-mile radius and outside that radius. In The SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the Committee yesterday the Chairman ruled House that the table be printed in that hon. members could not get tables and "Hansard"? extracts inserted in " Hansard" unless they HoNOURABLE 1\IE:llBERS: Hear, hear ! GH,EATER BRISBAXE.

Area. Population. PopnJation per (Square Miles.) Square J\Iile.

Within 5-'\Iile Radius­ Brisbane .. 5,~- 45,371 8,249 South Brisbane 4!- 40,000 R,889 Ithnca .. 4! 21,800 ·1 ,5R9 Windsor .. 4 10,000 + 750 Hamilton 3 o,55n :3:1so TOO\YOllg H 11,500 Z,556 Coorparoo 4 I 8,684 ?.,171 St.ephens .. 9 12.403 1.:378 Taringa 6 5,D20 087 Balmoral .. 1f I 10,000 I 6"5 Enoggera 38 i 4,500 118 Totals I 00t j--;:sS,-737--I,--,-,0;;;,-- i~~~--~~-!------! (A wrage) Outside 5-:i\Iile Radius­ \Vynnun1 .. 14 i 10,:373 I 7H Toombul .. 28 I 15,100 ' 539 Kedron 4;; I 6,34s 148 Sherwood 20 ' 7,100 355 Be!mont .. 27 1,550 [17 Yeerongpiliy 73 2,600 36 Tinga!pa .. 10! 600 30 Sandgate 6 7,000 1,167 l\Ioggill 55 1,008 20 Totals 2851 51,760 181 (AYerage)

'XniBER OF RATEPAYERS. \Yithin 5-l\Iilc Hadius 44,80•1 Outside 5-1Iile Radius 18,648 Total 63,452

LOAN INDEBTEDNESS. REVENcE.

Amount. Per Amount. Per Ratepayer. Ratepayer.

£ £ 8. d. £ £ 8. d. Within 5-}Iilc Radius- Brisbane 1,056,257 126 \) 8 249,417 29 17 5 South Brisban~· 330,052 42 3 4 73,424 9 7 1 Ithaca .. 31,266 5 10 1 25,51 !j 4 9 10 \Vindsor 118,821 20 9 4 28,677 4 18 g Ramil on 72,041 23 12 6 26,4(12 811 g Too·wong 42,\l06 16 8 2 18,523 7 1 8 Coorparoo 55,7G2 18 13 7 12,050 4 0 g Stephens 44;j69 9 13 0 H,o:n 3 311 Taringa 20,%7 10 1 4 8,579 4 ·1 10 Balmoral 46,253 11 18 11 14,671 3 8 10 :Enoggera 11,Hl2 5 10 10 8,208 4 1 3 j ------Totals I 1,8;]0,776 40 17 3 480,187 10 14 4 Outside 5-Mile Radius- \Vynnun1 48,682 11 9 9 14,587 3 8 10 'I'oo111bul .. 5D,712 11 5 10 20,864 ~ 18 11 Kcdron -·1 4,158 1 9 0 8)075 2 16 4 Shen,·ood I 18,206 5 16 10 0,420 3 0 6 Helmont 18,594 17 1 6 3,6:-)n 3 7 2 Yrerongpilly 3,277 1 12 2 Tingalpa 270 1 18 7 240 1 14 3 Sandg:-ltP 19,515 7 11 10 0,525 3H 1 llloggill 5()8 1 2 8 1,722 3 8 7 Totals 169,705 g 2 0 71,360 3 16 6

£ 8. d. Indebtedness Per Capita ov~r Whole Area 31 10 (l Saving Per Ratepayer in 5-~lile Area . . . . 0 6 f) Increased Liability Per ll.atepayer in Outside Area 22 8 6 Mr. Moore.J 1146 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEi.\iBLY.] City of Brisbane B~l/..

Mr. MOORE : The areas within a 5-milc railway fares. The railway communication radius as nut forward by the Minister in­ is there already, and I do not see that any clude-Drisbanc, South ·Brisbane. Hhaca, advantage on the ground of dens1ty of popu­ \Vindsor, I-Iamilton, Toowong, Coorparoo, lation m· some other reason is going to Stephem, 'l'aringa, BalmoraL and Enog­ accrue from bringing Sandgate or such places gera, with a total area of 99k square miles in rather than leaving thorn out until they o.nd a population of 188,737, an average per ure ready for absorption. square mile of population c-f 1.902. Outside Tho Home Secrctarv also pointed out that 5-mile radius is a total of 2851 square what he termed the injustice to one area miles, inch,.ding the shires of \Yynnum,, which might bo outside the Greater Brisbane Toombul, Krdron. Sherwood, Belmont, Yee­ area of havino· to n1aintain hvo n1ain rorrds. rongpilly, Tingalpa, Sandgate, and Moggill, If those two ,;ain roads were merely running with a population of 51,769, or :m average across the Toombul area, for instance, and per square mile of 181 persons, showing an the traffic was going across from some place enormous discrepancy in the density of popu­ outside into the city of Brisbane. and the~· lation and the possibility of a very heavy were really not for the benefit of the rate­ burden on the sparsely-settled communit:,· payers of Toombul at all, I could under­ outside tho 5-mile radius before thev are stand tho argument ; but as a m a iter of in a condition to accept the responsibility fact those two main roads end at +h,, Sea of having, amongst other things. a consicler­ within the Toombul area. 'The whole of ablo loan indebtedness placed on their their length rtt ono end is within the Toom· shoulders. Dut I am not altogether inter­ bul ·,hire, and they aro for tho benefit of ested in the questions of population and the lhe ratepayers who live within thilt ·hire. liabilitv per capib, so much as I am inter­ 'l'hev also have u. considerable arnount of Psted in the number of ratepayers \Vithin rrtteable property within the ''hire on each those areas, because, after all, those are side to keop them up, but if the main roads the people who will have to foot the bill. \H'nt through a scclion of a shire whi· h had That question was absolutely neglected in Ycr•.- little use for them, ono cot1ld und0r tand thE' point of view of the Home Secretary. the" argument. The necessity of including Of course I can quite undr•rstand that con­ that shire in the area, or one or two others sidering the nature of the franchise. But such as Moggill-in which ca' ble to put all their roads in a far better The argument that it is !lecessary to have condition. the greater area because of the necessitv for Tho Hm!E SECRETARY: That is if thev arc a. deep-water port within it is very ,\·eak. content to remain in their pn~·:rt stsioncr of Public Health they require such expenditure. \vould be able to keep the councils of the lees thickly populated areas up 1.o therr The first council under this echeme will c-bligations in the matter of health. In the have power to make practically a now Act 'If. 5-milo area you h~v' a population of 188.000, for it; It will practiolly be ab]o to do and it is imperative that the;. would have that by the ordinances th,,,t will be issued, an dicctive Health Board, and ~:ou are going and if they happen to ]cove anything out to detract from the effcctiYOlCSS 'Jf. that of that. nc'v Act, they \Yill be g·ovcrned by JI ealth Board by bringing in another area the scctiom of the Local Authorities Act of 75 square n1iles. Such a step is 1~ot gov 'rning those matters. going to in1prove or bring about a pure milk .._4_gain, conditions n1ay be i mpos~d in fur­ ~upply. A pure milk supply is not g('ing to ther mcc of the declared ]>olic-r of tlw G,~­ be more easily obtuinablo in a big area than vcrnmcnt. We ar' to h.1vo · nn cntirch,.. m a small area. If you have a milk supply different s:vst~m coming j_JLD voru·• in tho for 188,000 people, Lnd 0·ou add on another payment of members and jn thn s.v~trm wo 51,000 over a widely distributed area, neces­ are goin'l' to ha,·e for concbctiu'l' the clcc­ sit-ning tho carr.. ing of rnilk oyer longc1~ tious. The rn tcpaycrs an~ net goi1:~ to ha;,-?­ -distances at an incr~'ascd cost of distribution, the voice that I consirler thrv should ha.-c. you arc not going to confer any public benefit The ratonavers -,_re the P''Op.lc who choulrl on tho,,e people outside, and certainly it han:~ th?. v~tc in local n•1thority aTeas, and will add to the cost of the milk snpplv of not the elector·.. The Ov>o :tion l1nvc not the people inside. The va ri 'ty of existing rcc('clod from that strrndpoint in the slightest. loan rates \Y.as 11ut for•\ ard as bL'ing a gn'nt 'Gndcr the Bill the ntcjw~·en arc going to drawback. The variPtv of loan rnlc'' will bo !Jo of secondary importance except that tlwy cntird-.r dol-:!O a\\-av \Yi.th in the 5-rnilc ar a, will still have to fi.1d the money. In many bcr ms~ all the diffon-nt d~sscs of loans, cases, though having to pay rate 1, they will except a fc\v G{)vernn1ent loans for the m a in­ ha vo no vote at all. -t ·nancc of ro1els and channels in yarious out- ,ide shires. happen to apply within the 5-mile The H01IE SECRETIRY: The Bill does not radiu'. A big majority of the joint boards create that principle. tl''L'' also operative ·within that area. ~o 1\fr. MOORE: The Bill rlocs not create the, n1ut1cr how big the area is going io be, principl0, but it pernctuat·-)? it. I \Y'lnt to .vou arc going to have joint local authority point out that there is no prott,ction for the -..vork on the boundari2s in connection \V1 tti people who have to foot the bill. Supposin::; "mnll bridges and boundarv roads. You can­ we got a ,ocialict Conncil in pO\Ycr! \Ye not get a'" ny from that. The a. gun cnt was knm:, that all socialists are pled: od to the adYDnc,·d that some councils were morG enter· same set of principles, and many things that prising, and had a higher scn,-e of civic m·e done may b, unju-t qnd may not be ·devdopm nt and of the health and comfort favoured hv a. large ccct;on of the com­ of the people, im·olving heavy liability, due munitv. The only protection the r •l''Pa:.-er almost entirely to the necessities of the posi­ has is that the Goyernor in Council, or th<' tior:t. The Home Secretary quoted \Vindsor Minister, b.v Order in Council, can veto an nnd Yloggill as an illustration. \Vindsor has ordinance, or when it is laid on the. table an are:t of 4 ~011are milt?3, and a density of of tho House, if it is objcdod to withm on" popnlation of 4,750 to the square mile, a.nd month it can bo veto.- d th-·rc; but is there -}fog-gill has an area of 55 so_urrre miles, and the slightest pos,ibili_ty of anv .Government a density of population of twentv to the with a P1ajorit; Ycto1ng an ordn1ance ,,.h2n square mil . Could a more ridiculous com­ it is in furtherance of their generd scheme parison be made 9 The people of Moggill of nationalisation, or municipalisation. or have accepted the responsibility for the things whatever vou like to call it? y, it likelv that were required for the numb r of people that a Government with a majority pledged -thcv had in their area. Windsor has done the to the same principles will veto such a pro· same, and has spent in pToportion the same posal 9 They will not do so no matter what arnount. objections are raised against it ?'" what The Hm!E SECRETARY: Under the old Bill iniustices arc shO\vn. The RJI! provrdos that '\Vindsor would still have to carry its indebted­ alckrmen are to be paid £400 per annum, ness, and pool future loans. and the mavor is to rccnivo £1 000 per :Mr. MOORE: That is not what I am talk­ annum. Under that system it appe.ors to ing about. The hon. gcnthman stated that mo that there will be a large number of I he so nee of civic duty in Windwr was more neopl0 who are not ratrpa~,~ers p11tting un :highly developed. He said this- for -elections, with nothing to recommend them except a loud voice aml no cnnscience: " The thing that constitut s the weak­ and the probabilitv is that they will ncq of the old proposal is to be fonnd in offer all sorts of bribes to secure votes areas like 'Windsor and Hamilton, which to retain their positions. At the prc's••nt time havP borrowed money and improved their we have had persons offering considerable areas by putting in efficient drainage and bribes at the ratepavers' expense, to secure have m"de the

Mr. MOORE: I am not pessimistic. under the hon. gentleman's scheme for a 5·­ Mr. MAXWELL: He is a local authority mile radius. All the other shires would be man. icft as they are, and their boundaries "ould be the same, and Belmont could be added tO" Mr. CARTER: He has not a high moral Tingalpa. There is no reason why they standard. should not continufJ with their present boun­ Mr. MOORE: That has taken place at r~aries. They have been fairly satisfactory, municipal elections when no salary was and thoro is no reason whv they should not attached to the position. still continue. As the distr:icts develop, they "·ill be able to be brought up to tho standard ::Vh. CARTER: No visible salary. 'vhich has been attained in other districts. Mr. MOO RE: 'The hon. member ha' been The Ho~m SECHETARY: Belmont has been a member of the Brisbane Citv Council, and divided because we do not think the other he has had a better opportun'ity of judging districts should assume the guarantee of the of whether there were opportunities for tram\vay. receiving invisible sala6" s or not. I ha Ye never bad that opportnnity. I Mr. MOORE: 'I'hat is the only liability [11.30 a.m.] say there arc opportunitic·s under that the Belmont Shire has incurrPd. this Bill of offering concessions at Mr. \V RIGHT: It has proved too much for the other fellow's expense, and they will be them. availed of by people ,,ho lunc nothing to pay, and who will be able to offer all sorts MT. MOORE: You can find mi lakes have of bribee, not only to attain the positions but occurred in the citv of Brisbane and in out­ t..:> endeavour to retain them, and the rate­ .side areas, but it cllnnot be said that bu·ause payers will have tcc pay for them. 'I'hat is a one mistake is 11!adc here and there mistakes position which is entirely wrong and u!'just. l1ave been made en·rywhere. \Ve all know perfectly well how this position Mr. KERR: You still have got the Moggill has developed in the Stat .•. Even the ferry. Federal elections have deYeloped into the position that the party offering the greatest Mr. MOO RE: All the various roads and bribe receives the greatest number of votes. bridges that the Minister spoke of come \Ve have had instances of that not nnlv in within the present densely populated 5-mile <•Ur Federal but in our State elections. " area. Mr. CARTER: Did not your party try to The H01m SECRETARY: They arc not all bribe an hon. member on this side of tho confined to that area. House? Mr. MOORE : That is one arg·ument that M-r. MOORE: No, the ho~. member is the hon. gentleman put forward. ll_- men­ absolutely wrong. It will be recognised that tioned one particular injustice in South Bris­ that principle will he deYeloped, and the bane. The greater portion of the traffic Home Secretary, when introducing the Bi:I, through South Brisbane will be into districts said that we did not want to hcYe a :iiussolini within the 5-mile radius, and there is not a as mayor of Bri,banc. If there is any great amount of it that comes from outside more effective method of securing such a that area. Most of the people from the mayor than under the power,; contained in outside areas travel either by rail or tram. this Bifl I should like to know what it is. The hon. gentleman is gi,-ing a man power The Ho~IE SECRETARY: Nearly evecure in that are>t uses the roads; the:; use the his return, and there is a possibility that he trains very little. The people in the outside might he elected by people who would not areas who aro -engaged in offices in town have to contribute to the cost of fulfilling the c Council itself confen years, yet supplied 102 1 0 the people m thirty or forty years will bo -called upon to pay interest and redemption r I ·on loans that were obtained for works which I I~oral ! Water I are already worn out. The principle is . Authority., anrl Total. wrong, and dnes not obtain in any part of r Sewerage. I the State. Loans are only granted for the I £ s. d.i £ s. d. --£-s-.-d. period "hich is considered the life of the ;vork except in such schemes as electric light­ Total Loan Indebtedness of Whole Area. mg. In loans for the construction of roads Per building or!' 28 5 0[102 1 l [1:JO 6 10 'bridges, drains, etc., the period should only ratepayer be for the life of the work. If the loans are Total Revenue of Whole Ard.

pooled, the life of those works will not bo Per buihling or.'· 7 16 0 I, 6 10 0 ] 14 15 0 extended, although the time of payment will ratepayer I be, and the consequence is that the rate­ payers in the future will have to pay double This is a very considerable sum. What for the work. I want to get at is: Are the people in the The HO}!E SECRETARY : Do you suggest outside areas goibg to receive in the future benefited areas? an adequate benefit to compensate tho'TI for liw amount of liaLility that is going to be Mr. MOORE: That is not extending the placed on them immediately? In my opinion 'benefited areas. I admit that the pooling of they are not. I believe in a gradual absorp­ the lo~ns will b0 a big saving. If the pro­ tion. I believe that, as the density of popula­ posal 1s to pool the loans for a period of tion gror•,s in the various nreas ;wd the forty years, I assume the aq•:·ago rate of ncces~ity arises for improvements, the people interest will be 5 per cent. There are far ean construct those in1Droven1cnt~ much more 5~ pe1· c-ent. loans than loans at 4 per cheaper at that time tha1i by accopti11g an ·cent. Presumably, the redemption will be, immediate liability and possibly having to roughly, about 10s. per cent. The interest depend on a coun~i! on ,,.hich thev mav have and redemption on Government loans over little influence. \Ve know wry well that the whole ar·ea will be 9s. 6d. per ratepayer, nndcr the system of election the areas having or 2s. 6d. per capita. The present interest l he gi'Batest numbe1: of votes will receive the and redemption of Government loans within o:rcate,t consideration. It is all verv fihe the 5-mile radius is 19s. 3d. per ratepayer Jo say that, if all those people in the o'utside and 4s. 7d. per capita, while outside thB a?·eas can combine and decide upon a com­ 5-mile radius it is .£1 2s. Bel. per ratepayer r'!On policy, they will be able to influence and Ss. ld. per capita. The present interest the Greater Brisbane Council in seeing that ·on loans from other sources within the 5-milo the requisite a1nount of nlOll'~Y _ is ~pent in radius is £2 14s. 5d. per ratepayer and 13c. mch areas to bring them up to the required per capita. while outside the 5-mile radius standard of comfort and efficiencY; but it is no interest is paid because thev have no a different thing t0 r:crry out such a scheme. liabilities. 'rho present interest o"n the total . The HOoiE SErnnARY: You might argue indebtedness of the local authorities within Lat so far as this House is concerned. The the 5-mile radius is £3 13s. Sd. per ratepayer 'amc system will be operating. and 17s. 7d. per capita, while outside the E-mile mclius it is :£1 2s. Bel. per ratepayer :\!fr. MOORE: 'l'he Minister must know and Ss. le!. per cap1ta. The annual interest that the spending of 1nunicipal raoncy 'for the whole arc a will be £2 7s. lOd. per depen-ds on the representation. \VhNe the ratepay.er and 12s. Se!. per capita. The ~rcatest nu1nbcr of votes is situated there average saving to the inhabitants within the J he greatest amount of mono.: is spent. 5-mile radius will be .£1 5s. lOd. per rate­ The same thing a::-;plies to this House. payer, '!r 4s. llcl. per capita, while the The HmrE SECRETARY: \Yo shall get bigger average mcreased payment by the inhabit mts n,cn under this scLeme. of the ar.ea outside the S-mile radius will be £1 . Ss. 2cl. pe1: ratepayer and 4s. 7d. per :\!fr. MOORE: It is all voq fine to say capita. That 1s a pretty big load for the \YP shall get biggr·'· men, but how ran the people to carry. and the Government under ~.finister guarantee that? The Minister puts the Bill. will rec!nce the loan indel~tcdness forward the proposition that twenty mer. at in_side. the radius by £9 6s .. 9d.,. while they £400 a year will be bigger men than the w11! mcrease th, per capit.ft mdebtedness members of the !W•2sent local authoriti~s. In outside the area by £22 Ss. 6d. my opinion they are more likely to be smaller men. The Ho~rE SECRET

Mr. MO ORE': Such an argum€nt is absurd. in this Bill. They do not want to enter­ \Ve want to get the best men. To say that a into that liability before the work is re· man mnst give six rnonths on end of his quired. Take the case of an area with a whole time does rot necess:triiy ensure that large number of people. It is absolutely we shall get the best men. \Ye are more esHmtial to carry out improvcm€nts to safe­ likely to get ilidi,-iduals for this £400 a guard the health and comfort of the people Y'~'tr who cannot earn that sum in any other OY mg to the congested natu~re of the district. walk of life, and that is what I am afcraicl of. Then, lake a large area with a scattered You will flllcl the position will be that "~here population. They do not need the same ihe greatest number of votes arc that area rnonCJ' or the san1e conveniences. Thev have will secure the greatest attention and the open spaces and do not ,-,~ant the same pro­ greatest expenditure of money. Yision for ventilation and drainage. The The HmrE SECRET,\TIY: That might b€ so if conditions arc totally different. My view is the ,,]cdion of th,, twenty men took place tba t the Bill should be limited in the first over tho ,vhole area. instance to practically a 5-mile radius. and thoro should be a proccs, of gr. dual aL'f:Orp­ Mr. MOORE: 'That \Yould be an abmrditv. tion as it is found necessary and anvan­ Under the proposed conditions it would be tarrcotn to take in outside areas. To force Ycry difficult to get even reasonable con­ them into the position at the present tim( sideration for the p ople liYing in the out­ end place a large liabilit:- on their shoulders side areas. \Ve all know there ',ill be i"3 unfair, and it is not going to give them competition for the votes and billets, and the opportunity to progress in the v, ay the}· \';·here the greatest number of Yob~s originate should progres,c,, The community of interest the ~Toatcr ar;"o,unt of money \Vill be spent. is not thoro at present, and will only come I thmk the i;llmstcr recognises that. He into existence as the city progresses in the kno\\,.s that \VO arc si1nilarly placed in this various directions. At the pres,•nt time we IIou:.c. \Ybere the gr{:atest ntu11ber of votes cannot tell in which wav the citv is likolv come from they rec~iye the greatest attention. to extend. Some of the outsirfe cli trict"s Tho HOiiiE SEcRETARY: That does not ma:v not develop at all, while other sPctio~'s follow at all. may den: lop to a consiclera blo extent in the noxt fc\v year~. A great deal dcper:ds on :\ction in fayour of operation rather than to the general gmdual absorption i·ather than of forcing princ\ple of the Bill. The principle is thee 1vhoh• area to come in at once I think good. the Minister would be "·ise to a'dopt. the [12 noon.] 'muller area. The very object. of introduc­ ing the Bill last year was to give people There we have the Brisbane "Courier" au opportunity of discnssion. and it seems admitting that the principl·e of the Bill is rather a pity that tho J\Iniister has not good, and insisting that the extension of the taken more notice of the viev. s of the people crty area and the creation of a greater who wm be a.fl'ecte.cJ. authority than we have at the present time rn the city of Brisbane is necessary. The Mr. McLACHLA:'-i (Jicr-thy,·): I listened " Daily Standard," of the same ,date, has very attentively to the. remarks of the this to say- h•ador of the Opposition, and while I have listened with a great deal of pleasure to the " J';'o reasonable, intelligent citizen can hem. mcmb<.)r on 1nany occasions in the past cavil at the proposal to incorporate in whun he has appeared to be an fait with his one authority the divers shire, town and subject, I must. confess that this morning he city councils operating in the metr~poli­ gl!ve. me the rmpres·.ron that he was not tan area. It has been proved beyond farm!Iar wrth the subject he was discussing. the shadow of a doubt that the present He seemed unable to concentrate on any of division of authority has acted in many the pa rtrcnlar pomts ho rai:,ed and did not ways as a curb upon development on develop his arguments as he usuallv does. modern linos, and has caused waste of He dealt principally with the area it is effort and needless expenditure of public proposed to include in this Create,· Brisbane funds. \Ve believe that anv indifference scheme. He argued that the area is too .as to the city's progress, or 'lack of it, in l,trgc. and endeavoured to contro;-crt tho the past has been duo to the very thing ~rgnments used by_ the Home Secretary when which will cease to exist on the creation mtrodncmg the Brll. . But, while ho argued of a Greater Brisbane. Parochialism, t,bat th 0 10-mrlo radms '.''as too large, he arising from the narrowing of municipal c,rd not advocate any partrcula.r lessor area. activity, has been a distinct drawback to Mr. ~JOORE' I advocated the smaller the .advancement of the citv. Remove area put forv, ard by the Minister. that parochialism and you ge't a broader outlook and a healthier municipal S·enti­ l\ir. ::YlcLACJ;ILAN: :Yiy interjection ment." ehcitod from hrm the statement that he was referring to the area put forward by I think that shows exactly what will bo the the J\,fmrster. If he was referrino- to the lesse•r result of the administration under the Bill. area put forward bv the Micister ho did ~t will have the effect of removing parochial­ not disprove the eon'tention of the 'Minister Ism, and many of the small shires which are or the arguments he used in proving that operating at the present time will be done the proposed 10-mile area is the better away with. We shall have one central autho­ area of the two. The speech delivered rity controlling the greater area which will by the Minister: was couched in language comprise the city, which, in my opinion is that was both sr:nple and explanatory, and destined in the not far distant future to' be ho went to consrderable care and pains in perhaps the greatest in the Commonwealth showing that the greater area was the better of Australia. It must be remembered that area for the City_ of Brisbane. Anybody in so far as this Bill is concerned we are not who has read the hrstory of loc:rl government· legislating for the immediate present or fay work throughout the British Dominions can the immediate future. The Government in sec that there is a movement in favour of introducing this measure, are looking fi'fty, larger areas in connection with local govern­ sixty, or seventy years ahead. They are con­ ment.. I look upon local government as a sidering the rate at which the city must very rmportl!nt sphere of work in the con­ grow, taking as a guide its growth and duct of the affairs of the State. The local development during the last few years. Bris­ governing bodies deal in a greater measure bane is destined to become a great city. We with the domestic life of the people than have that on the authority of men who have either the State Parliament or the Common­ travelled the world over, and who have had wealth Parliament, and under the Bill that experience of the other cities of the Com­ we are discussing the men who will have monwealth. I will quote just one more Mr. 1!1cLachlan.] ll52 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill. extract in connection with the Bill from the I think the Government were wise last year ~risbane "Telegraph" of 17th September in introducing the City of Brisbane Bill, as mstant- by so doing an opportunity was afforded to " Most people are agreed upon the those who take an interest in local govern­ oontral principle of the Greater Brisbane ment work to analyse the measure and see Bill now before Parliament. Broadly if it could be in any way improved. As the speaking, the 240,000 people occupying r-esult of that measure having been before the metropolitan area .are one people, the various local authorities and the confer­ having community of interest, and they ences which have been held, and the Minister should not require a multiplicity of also having considere-d the matter in the bodies for purposes of local government. interim, there have been necessary .amend­ Indeed, where numerous .authorities exist, ments ma-de, and the Bill we are discussing as at present, there must be overlapping to-dav is a verv different measure from that and clashing in various directions which which was introduced last year. will be avoided under the Great~r Bris­ Mr. MAXWELL: Even different from what bane scheme. Uniformity of policy, of ~Ir. Huxham, the former Home Secretary, by-laws, and so forth are desirable things mtroduced. attainable only by amalgamation, while economy in administration should also Mr. McLACHLAN: Probably so. As the result." Press reports I have quoted show, the Bill at. the present time is acceptable to the I think that is a very fine statement in con­ metropolitan Press so far as principle and nection with what is expected to be secured area are concerned. under this Bill, and I feel sure that those results will be secured under the capable J'\1r. MAXWELL: You are wrong there. administration which will obtain under the Mr. McLACHLAN: The hon. member mea~ure. might give his authority for that statement. I differ from the leader of the Opposition Mr. MAXWELL: I will giv-e it to you. as tD the class of representative which will be secured under the Bill. As pointed out Mr. McLACHLAN: I have not observed by the Homo Secretary by way of interjec­ that the metropolitan Press has been criti­ tion, the franchise is not being altered. The cising the measure in any drastic way at all. franchise under which the aldermen of the The principal objection to the previous Citv of Brisbane Council will be elected is Bill was on the ground of the powers which the' same as the franchise which is being wer-e conferred on the Governor in Council used at the present time for the election of bv Orders in Council in connection with the members of the various councils comprised operation of the Bill. I quite admit that in the area included in this Greater Brisbane under the last Bill there "as very little scheme. The franchise is the same franchise power given to the Greater Brisbane City that we have in connection with the return Council. Power was given to the council in of members of the Legislative Assembly. certain directions, but it was praci ically The same franchise exists practically all over taken awa.y by the system of government by the Commonwealth. Orders in Council which was embodied in Mr. MAXWELL: No-not the franchise in the Bill. That svstem has been eliminated connection with local authorities. from the present- Bill, and while there are Mr. MrLACHLAN: I meant that the fran­ some utilities in connection with 'vhich I chise which is being used in local authority would have liked control 1':iven io the elections in Queensland and for the return of Greater Brisbane Council straight away. members to this House is the same as the there are onlv three or four of the functions franchise which is being used in connection of local government in regard to which con­ with the return of members to the Legisla­ trol has not been given to the Greater Bris­ tive Assemblies in other parts of Australia. bane Council under the Bill. I refer to the If it i' admitted-and it is admitted-that Brisbane Tramwav Trust. the Metropolibm the franchise we have is the proper franchise Water Supply and Sewerage Board, and the to use in returning- men to the State and Metropolitan Fire Brigade Board. I quite Commonwealth Parliaments and local autho­ realise that it would be a very big order for rities-- the Brisbane tram,vav svstem to be handed over to the Greater Brisbane Council at once. Me. KELSO: We do not admit it. but I do say that at the present time therP Mr. McLACHLAN : The hon. member is a great deal of difficulty being- experienced mav not admit it, but the fact that he does by the Brisbane City Council in connection not admit it would not make it wrong. with the roads owing to the power poss-essed :Mr. MAXWELL interjected. and exercised by the Brisbane Tramway Trust. Mr. McLACHLAN: Even the fact that the hon. member for Toowong does not admit At 12.10 p.m., it will not make it wrong. The fact that The CH.URl!A~ OF C"O}DIITTEES (:\h. Pollock. the principle is _right has been evidenced by Grtgory), relieved the Speaker in the chair. the number of times the present Government ha ye been returned by the people. Mr. Mc-LACHLAN: It mpans that the ·City Council practically has control over the .An OPPOSITION MEo!BER : That is no argu­ roads only in conjunction \vith some other ment. authoritv. and it is not able to mv that Mr. McLACHLAN: The franchise on ccrtftin ·thing-s shall be done which ·in its which the Greater Brisbane Council will he opinion it is very necEv,3ar:v to d0. I think elected is i he same franchise as that on it is desirable t-o enc!E avour so to arr'lngc which the present City Council is elected. I mattel'3 under the Bill that such details of have not heard that any great fault has beP,n administrat.ion as I ~peak of rnaY be- carriPrl found with the result of elections for the out under the control of one authoritv with­ Brisbane Council or local authorities gener­ out any conflicting- intercc-ts. I quitP- realise ally which have taken place under that that provision is made whereby thP difficult:r franchise. will disappear as time goes on, and perhaps [.Mr. McLachlan. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTE~IBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1153 it will not be long after the constitution of i rades, but the Council has no contr::Jl out­ the Greater Brisbane authDrity becomes an side its own boundary. It could not, for accomplished fact that that authority will instance, put them out in Toowong without fl>k for the power to control not only the hnving- the hon. mcn1b?r for rroowong argu~ tramway system but also the water suppl,1· illg again:;:.t it. lJndcr this Bill, ho,vever and sew,.::>rage services. In this connection I the whole of the area being under the control v:onld like to say that the City Council has of Dne authority, representing the whole of {·xperienced difficulty with the Metropolitan th2 other authorities existing to-day, full \Yatet· Supply and Sewerage Board with control will be exercised oYer these things, ~·f'gard to srcnt local authorities to g-et funl!s for the central ad1ninistrahon ln The Bill provides that the Council " shall a 1nattcr of that kind. The s.:.tn1e thing be charged v.·ith the government of the city. }:qnpc 'Jccl rc-t ~utl,j in regard to the influenza .tnd shall ha V<' control of the working and outbreak. wh·n the 1\l('tro;JOlitan Joint 1•u;;,iness of such g·OV0rnrrtent." and then goe.3 Hc:dth Board was c'tabliF~1ecl. These thin!Ss 011 to set out the various n1attcrs over which g-o to show the great lJL'Ce/)sity tht're is for the Council shall have CDntrcil. In particular a cPntral controlling authority in health it n1cntions roads, parks~ n1arkets. baths, m,-,ttcr'3 generaJJy, and under this Bill \V'-' trarmations­ tho street itself for the purpose of diverting important from the point Df Yiew Df being­ the delivery vans, and thereby helping to a blo to express their vio\vs on a 1neasure of !rive greater facilities to the general travel­ this ldnd~carrying resolutions in favour of iing public. But the Council found that, as tho tlr0a and recognising the importance of .. oon as they had shifted those vans, station· th0 Bill. At the present time the various ary motor cars tDok their place, and the councils haYe the right to carry out their DWn n'lief sought for was not secured. I had areas ,do not develon, and that many present time, of course, the Brisbane City breatbing places arc prDvided for the people. Conncil has power to make its own by-laws, and under them may set apart areas for such Mr. KERR: How are you going to dD that?

1924-4 B Mr. McLachlan.] 1154 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

Mr. McLACHLAN: The Bill will institute get with a bigger council. But there :1 policy which will make for the development comes a time when the .city reaches a of the city and will aho make for uniformity certain stage of growth that it cannot be in the matter of that development. In this k•cpt individually, but must be kept L.orning's " Daily Mail" I read the remarks collectivclv. It is a very difficult matter, by :\h. H. E. Morton, · engineer to the nn]e,, there is one head to control the Melbourne Citv Council. It is most impor­ city. Bri,bane has reached that stage tant that his remarks be quote-d so that they when individual control is no longer can be printed in " Hansard," as they very needed, and the greater council should clearly set: out what is necessary in a matter :lt on<:e consider traffic and other pro­ oi this kind. Mr. Morton says- blems with the aid of a town-planning " Unless provjsion is made without scheme. If something is not done quickly delay for future development, Brisbane there will be tremendous congestion." is g-oing to he faced with considerable That is the opinion of Mr. Morton, who is traffic confusion within the next few the engineer of the Melbourne City Council, years." a member of the London Institute of Civil I have been opeaking about the traffic Engineers, the Australian Institute of Civil problem. It is quite admitted by everybody Engineers and Surveyors, the Royal Vic­ that something will have to be done in that torian Institute of Architects, and several direction, and the sooner the Greater City other important bodies, and his opinion Council is instituted and has full control of should receive very weighty consideration. the traffic the better it will be for the Mr. MAXWELL: He is a very able man. city of Brisbane. Mr. Morton is further r

Thev have carried out the work to the best Mr. KING: Brisbane is a young city, and of their ability with the means and limited it is up to us to try and avoid the mistakes powe'l·s at their disposal, and have, as far that have been made in older cities, and to as possible, made a success and done their create and develop our city on the most part in bnilding up the City of Brisbane. up-to-date lines with a proper perspective It is only due for me to say that they have as to the necessities of the future and the earned ihe respect, approbation, thanks, generations to follow. and gratitude of the people of Queensland, The Bill is a very great improvement on and especially the people of Brisbane, for the previous Bill, which contained many the work they have done. (Hear, hear~) objectionable features. I am very glad indeed that the Government dropped that I would like to say in dealing with the Bill. They could see at once, after the Bill Bill itself that it has for its object the good had been discussed by people who were goverr•rncnt of the metropolitan area of interested in local government, that it was Brisbane. The best method of attaining absolutely useless to go on with that mea­ that object is to centre in a single body 'ure. There were many objectionable fea­ all the functions of local government, the tures in it. There were practically no elimination of all other authorities exer­ po1cers given under the Bill beyond those cising control of what are really local func­ peP·· crs contained in the Local Authorities tions. and to formulate a scheme defining and Health Acts, and other existing Acts. or establishing the power and functions of vYhat additional powers were to be given that body when constituted, and making wne to be granted from time to time by JWOvision for the financing of the scheme. the GoYcrnor in Council. As a matter of l have for many years taken a verv keen fact. in the exercise of those powers the interest ill local government. I have' made !veal authority practically had no discretion a study of local government. I have made a at all. Although they had a Greater Bris­ cardc!l study of the Bill, and I have come bane under the previous scheme, practically to the conclusion that the Bill and its prin­ ;w power whatever was granted to enable ciples are very democratic indeed. In my the council to engage in :my undertaking opinion the Bill largely embodies the true unless it first applied to the Governor in principles and ideals of local government. Council for an Order in Council authorising I r is local government in the truest sense lt to do so. Even the11 the city council was of the word, because it places in the hands of to have no discretion in the exercise of those the people ihe power a.nd authority to make power,. The present Bill is a vastly differ­ theu own laws. At the present time the ent Bill. It gives very great and ample functions of local government in the metro­ powers, on \vhich I will sa v a few words politan area are distributed among a number later on. · of constituted independent bodies includ­ ing the Cities of Brisbane and So~1th Bris­ .Before I get. on to the principles of the bane, the towns and shires of Hamilton, Dill I would like to make a few remarks Ithaca. Sandgate, Toowong, Windsor, about some of the other greater cities, be­ Wynnum, Balmoral, Belmont, Coorparoo, cause although our citv is a small one so Enoggera, Kedron. MoggilL Sherwood. far as population is concerned, the principle' Stcphees, Taringa, Tingalpa Toombul and tha! have actuated other cities in enlarging Y eerongpilly. The Bill pr~poses to grant thPn' areas and co-ordin.oting their functions a charter for the whole of this area. The apply equally as well to Brisbane and the local a ut horitics in the _Past have complained .wlwme we have under consideration. Greater of the absIopment. They have practicallv nection with this BilL With such a multi­ mumc1pahsed all services and public utilitie;, plicity of local authorities as are found in and have made a complete unification of lac 1] the metropolitan area, it is obvious that it gov :rnment facilities. Glasgow has only an is i_mpossible. to !l'ive effect. to a single co­ area of 30 square miles, and Birmingham ordmate polwy m connection with roads an area of 68 square miles. That will com­ bridges, se-were, drains, parks, reserves, tow~ pare with the area of Greater Brisbane. plan':'ing, homing, transit, light, water, So far a Greater London has not been cre.ated pubhc health, and all the other functions of Meetings have been held in connection with local government. Therefore, one of the the establishment of a Greater London but greatest advantages of the scheme will be so far nothing has eventuated. If we' had a co-ordination and defined comprehensive a Greater London, it would probably include policy regarding all those services. We an area of 693 square miles. Included therein recognise that metropolitan Brisbane is one would be the City of London, the Londor. organic whole, but, if we allow it to be County Council, twenty-seven municipal suh­ chopped up into blocks, each independent of ordmate boroughs, and other independent the other as at present, we weaken instead boroughs and county councils. Although of strengthen the powers of local control several Royal Commissions have bepn co-ordination of services, and uniformitv of appointed to investigate the problem of a management which will come about under Gr'"ater London, no decision has as yet been the ~cheme. We >;r_e benefiting by the an·JVed at. Probably the problem is too big expenence

in Chicago they not only incrr a sed the area schtdor in " Thi" report on the 'Unification of deciding the rrea should be community of Local Governn1 nts in Chicago ' is the interest. yet there ar·e other considerations sequel to the report of the Chicago of cqu::tl aud oven greater importanec \\·hich Bureau of Public EfficiencY issued in 191Z dr:·n1and serious att0ntion before \Ve comn1it entitled 'The :\inetecn ·Local Govern· L'ln'::-,ch-·cs to the scheme. I know different n1cnts in Chicago.' " OJHTIJmJs are hc1J as t·o ·what c-onstitutes 1t is curious that \VE' has~ nineteen local ctommunity of interest. I w•,nt to say right goyernn1cnts affectrd bv our nteasure. This horP aPd now that I have no ·doubt ir. mv treatise declared that ·the gre'ltest need of mind that there is comrr1unltv of intc1.e;;;t ill c·hirl,gO 1Yas unification. It gor,, on- the larger area. I think. that ]d'Cvails. " The 111ain purpos·~ of this r€']1ort is becaw:J, after al1, 1vhat is cmnn1unity of to show the nerd of complete nnification intPrr-st? It is common intere~·t--·not.hing of the local go\'ernmenb within the n:ore or less th1n rnmmon interest. For '\Ietc·opolitan Community of Chicago, and inctance. is there r,ot common interest in all to present a simple plan of responsible the main arterial roads leading Irom Bris­ goYernnH'ntal or7ani~at.ion under \ 1r·hich banf'? Th<:>re is community of interest there, grh'-ter 0fficiency In!ght je expected from \ city er cornmi1nity is an OTg·anic "\Yhole. pt: blic officials." The people of Brisbane, numbering about 2,'\9,000 in the metropolitan are~, constitute a The preamble on pag·e 7 says- \'ommunity. HoviT many times have the " JVIounting taxes \'rithont corN'snoncl­ ineteen local authorities affected bv this ing incrense ·in the volume and quality of Rill been c>tlled toguther to take" joint public sm·vices continuall ,. embarrassed cdion? It has hf•ppened time after time. public finances. \Yidespread dissatisfac­ 'l'hnre was a Joint Plag·ue Board, I think, tion with local administration and fre· es far back as 1901. an Infl.urmza Board. a quent clashes of the diff·erent authorities Joint Health Boa·nl, all app.Jinted for the with one another. forc<'d this communitv purpose of safeguarding the community .1llied to serious consideration of tho question by t1es of ('on1rnon interest and comrnon pro­ of fundamental reorgani.'.ltion of local tection. There is no queotion about the government." constitution of a. communitv of interest iu If, On page 29 of the same work this stat<:cm 'nt nrch rases as thos.r I haye mentioned. on oppears- the other band. these joint board, !rad been •"

extended until the scheme comes into opera­ Mr. KING: It _was not used in the same tion. Until the Greater Brisbane Council sense in conneciJOn with local authority properly functions, it will be engaged in matters. Ordinances, like by-laws, must practically making its own laws and in the comply with certa;n rules in order that _they preparation of its ordinances. I see from r:1av not be invalid. They must be (1) wrthm the Bill that the interim expenditure will the" ordinance-making powers given by the b? guaranteed by the Treasurer. The ser­ ,tatutr in respect of the subject-matter dealt VIce~ to be taken over on 1st October, 1925, ''"ith i c not ultra 'Vires in the narrower will be the joint local authorities and _joint sons~ o.f ..those word,; (2) specific in their boards constituted under Local Authorities to,·ms; (3) not •repugnant to th,; general and Acts, the Health Act, and the Electric Light 'tatutc law; (4) reas'?na?le. As a gr;neral and Power Act. We know that there is a rule they arc not bmdmg on the \"rown bonrd in existence-the Metropolitan Elec­ unless declared to be so by the statute. tric Light Board-which embraces a number of the authorities covered bv the Bill, and The powers provided for in the Bill are that will be absorbed. The Victoria Bridge Yery wide, and rightly so. If local g~wern­ Board "ill also be absorbed on the 1st illBnt is going to be local government m the October, 1925. Then we have the Metro­ i'rue sense of the word, then not only should politan Fire Brigade and other fire brigade th<' widest possible powers he given, but boards m the area, cemetery boards the interference with t·h<' exBrcise of those powers M<:>tropolitan Water. Supply ;,nd Sew~rage from the central authority should not be Board, and the Bnsbane Tramway Trust. iolerated. I have 'aid in this Chamber on They arc to be graduallv absorbed. . I wish more than one occasion that the principles again to emphasise that 'the great attraction of local government require that a local of the scheme is the unification and co­ authority s.hould be as free and indeprn_dent ordination of all the services and until in its snhore as the State Government Is m this is accomplished the sche~e will be its sphere. The Council, however, must be practically valueless and abortive. As I said verv careful that in exercising powers rt bEfore, I desire to see the scheme a success doe~ not clash with existing Acts of Pm·lia­ and thrs mav clash with the Health Act. I and strel!gthens the argument for the smaller cJo not, ho,vever, expect any trot~ble, as the area until the absorption embraces them. common sense of the Council will • ee that ender the financial clauses of the Bill there is no confusion, and that the powers the existing loans are to be di ,-ided into two o-ranted bv the difl'enmt ordinances will be sets, those bea':ing interest at 4~ per cent. riefinitely circumscribed. and those bearmg mterest at 5~ per cent. Those loans are to be' pooled and consolidated The Bill provides in one place that the mto two forty-year loans and benefited areas Council shall, "'subject to this Act and to are to be abolish0d. The loan indebtedness any alteration by ordinance," do so and so. of the local authn1·ities concerned under this This is not very clear. Does this mean that Bill at the 30th June last was approximateh· there is a pmver to alter by ordinance any £545,000. The councils concerned have also of the Acts refer·red to? If not, what is raised by debenturBs £1,591,000, and the meant? PoweJ' by ordinance is a delegated Government propose to guarantee repa:·ment r·ower, but the wording of the Bill seems of those debentures as an additional to indicate a power to over-ride an Act of Parliament. It ;, well kno-wn that the security. \Vhilst recognisina-0 that the fortv­ year terms will assist the financing of the poy; ers of the Local Authorities Acts and the Hectlth Act >ore limited, and al .. o that ~cheme, w-: cannot lose sight of the fact that m many mstances the monevs included in local authorities aro under those Acts, subject io restriction, and the question arises: How these loans ha':e b~en advanced in respect of works whose ii_fe Jms been terminated long far mav the limitations of powers and the they will become payable and that re.. tricti"ons bB removed? I ·would like the ~;efore :Minister to make this position clear. ~n some c~sBs 'Ye s_hall be flogging a dead r'orse. It Is clmmert by the Home Secretarv In conclusion, I would like to say that the .that the consolidation of thc•.oe loans wiil scheme is very arr do their 'duty and not sacrifice their prin­ <'quivalent in mear,ing to that term. It is a ciples for fear of being turned down at the hett-er term and more app~opriate. althc•ugh following election, men who will command the actual process of making ordinances is respect, men we can trust, and men who are much the same as the process of making bv- not after the salary, then I have no fear }aws. ~ that the scheme will not be a success, and that the Bill which has for its aim the good :11r. WRIGHT: It was used long before governm~nt of the city of Brisbane, the peace, America was thought of. comfort, and happiness of the community, will [Mr. King. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEl\1BER.] City of B1·isbane Bill. 1159 not realise all those hopeo and aspirations :Mr. WRIGHT: I know they are. The that we have in it. l"ery fact that they are older, that they have HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! had more years of local government, and are now clamouring for a greater city, is Mr. WRIGHT (Bulimba): In the first place an argument in favour of a Greater I want to congratulate the Minister on the Brisbane. introduction of the Bill and on the able The hon. member for Logan mentioned manner in which he has ,dealt with many the fact that there was no Greater London. important phases of the Bill. He is to be He also referred to the additional fact that -complimented upon the very able speech that the local government of London was com­ he made. Town plrmning of cities for the posed of a large number of different bodies. general welfare of their inhabitants is as old I would like to point out in answer to that a,; the hills. Quite accidentally I learnt the statement that for many years men engaged othet· day who originated the idea of town in local government work in London have planning. Hon. members may be surprised been craving for a Greater London. Several to know that the history of town planning Commi,sions have at different times sat for goes back for manv hundreds of vears. So quite long periods to discuss the question far as I have b en· able to trace, Moses was as to how and when it would be best to the first person responsible for the idea of establish a Greater London scheme. I want town planning. That was in the year 1452 to quote a few remarks in this connection B.C, He was responsible for land legislation made by Mr. Gomm, who was the statistician in connection with the building of cities. for the London County Council. He de­ and that same legislation could v:>rv well be livered n- series of lectures at the London a')plied during the present generation. His School of Economics in 1897, which were work as a pa'st master in the art of town afterwar-ds published in book form under nlanning is fully described in the fact that the title of " Principles of Local Govern­ he arranged for half a mile of garden and ment," I want to quote from this book to field suburbs to be situated around each citv sbow that the conditions of local govern­ ond those conditions could be verv weli ment affairs iu London are nothing to be recommended to the town planners ·of the advertised as an argument in favour of a present g-eneration. If hon. members desirc smaller area, or as· an argument against to delve further into the matter. I would this Bill. Mr. Gomm said- . refer them to the Book of Numbers chapter 35. ' " At present, princip!Ps of local go­ vernment are not, in this country, con­ :\Ir. KERR : Here endeth the first lesson. sidered at all. There is a vague sort of l\fr. WRIGHT: Speaking as one who has ide,~ that local government is a good had a bout three years' experience on a metro­ thing for Parliament to occupy itself politan local authority, I welcome the Bill. with, but there is no serious attempt to I believe that there is an urgent ne-ed for a consider it as a subject which is governed better eystem of local government in Bris­ by principles and not by fancy, which bane. and while I believe that that neod is should not, therefore, be left to the long overdue. I consider the Government did sudden energ} of Parliaments desiring the wisest and best thing under the circum­ to be busy with something new." sta:nc~~s i1~ holding ~v·er the actual passing Another gentleman, :Yir. Chambers, who has of this Bill last session. It is quite patent been quoted previously in this House, in an to all that, as a result, we have now a much article on " Local Government of England," bett,er Bill. Many of those interested-local says- authorities, progress associations, etc.-have " There is neither co-ordination nor given considerable time and thought to the subordination amongst the numerous measure. and the JYiinister and his advisoro authorities which regulate our local have been guided to a certain <>xtent by the affairs. Each authority appears to be criticism and suggestions that have emanated unacquainted with the existence, or, at from time to time from those organisation' least. with the work of the others. . . . who have g-iven the matter consideration. Local government in this country may It was a wise move on the part of the fitly be described as consisting of a chaos Government last year to d ·lay the passing of areas, a chaos of authorities, and a of the Bill. because now those concerned chaos of rates." in tlw area defined in the Bill are more favourably dispo; d to the objects of the It might be argued that the fact that these Bill. That is very important, because it wili peor:le in that old city and in that older mean that the scheme will be launched on a world have not been able to establish a wave of popular approval. There is no Greater London is an argument that we ·donht that the thinking public in the area would not be succrssful if we established a are heartil::- sick of the conditions existing Greater Brisbane scheme. In my opinion at present m local government. There is a that would not be a sound argument, because rl~sire for a greater city in every capitq,l the existing conditions in London and in city of the Commonwealth. As you know, Brisbane are not at all analogous. If we are CYJ:r. Speaker. I have busied myself since I eYer going to establish a Greater Brisbane, became a member of Parliament in travel­ now i, the time when definite action should ling- as much as possible throughout the Com­ be taken. 'The main clauses of the Bill which monwealth. There is onlv one State in the have met with criticism and which have Commonwealth which I ·hav-e not had the met with the attention of the various bodies pleasure of visiting. and that is Western interested, appear to be- AL·,tralia. I have taken particularly keen The area, note of the work of local governments in th'l The financial clauses, southern States. '\Vhile it is not a com­ The rate of remuneration paid to p_li.men~ to Brisbane, I must say that these Cities m the South are in many respects aldermen, miles ahead of Brisbane. The number of representatives pro­ Hon. W. H. BARNES: Don't forget they ar.e vided for, and \'N'.V much older. Differential rating. Mr. Wright.J 1160 City of Bn'sbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

I want to spend some little time on the to my mind is the strongest objection to the question of the area. The leader of the smaller area is the fact that the ummproved Opposi uon spent a considerable time this value of !and within the 10-milo area is morning on the question of area. He argued approximately £16,000,000, .while .the unim­ in favour of a smaller or 5-mile area. Per­ llroved value within the 5-milc hmit IS nearly sonally, I believe that the 10-mile are.a is £14,000,000. the only possible solution to a successful Mr. KERR: That is a good argument why evolution of the Greater Brisbane scheme. I we should not go beyond the 5-milc limit. presume we may take the recent Local Authoritic,' Conference as an official declara­ ::VIr. WRIGHT: It is not a good argument tion on this phase of the question. that it should not go outside the 5-mile lim.it. As a matter of fact, if we adopted a 5-mile 111-. KERR: Are you talking about the limit, the problem of dealing with the. area Labour aldermen in caucus? outside tha: limit would be almost msur~ Mr. WRIGHT: No; ,about the Local mountable. There is no doubt about that, a' Authorities' Conference, which sat aud gave the large area with the small value outside particular attention to this measure. One of rhc 5-mile limit would have just the sa1_ne their recommendations was the 5-mile area. amount of work to do. They would reqmre Mr. Chuter, as a member of the Town Plan­ drainage just the same as within the 5-mile. ning Association, addressed the Brisbane Hon. \V. H. BARNES: V,'hen you have got Chamber of Commerce some few months ago, to the 10-mile limit, won't you have just the and dealt very effectively with the question same trouble again? of area as suggested by the Local Authori· ties' Conference. Amongst other things, l\1r. Mr. WRIGHT: Inside the 10-mile radiu~ Chuter made this statement- the Greater Brisbane Council will have power " The objects of the Bill cannot be to manage practically everything in con~ attained by adopting the 5-mile radius twction with local g·overnment, and t.he Coun­ cil will have power to say where settlement should take place. They will have power " It may not have occurred to the Con­ to say where noxious trades shall be located, ference that if the 5-milo radius were and so on. The contention of the hon. adopted the Joint Health Board, the nwmber for vVvnnum, that the same argu~ Victoria Bridge Board, and other bridge ment would apply outside the 10-mi~e radius. boards would req11ire to be retained, is absurd. If w-' adopted the 5~mile hm1t, whilst others would have to be created, there would be portions of the area outside particularly for the crossings over the tlHtt limit which would either have to be river. allocated to existing shires which have no " The adoption of the 5-mile radius is community of interest, or e~s'? we would hav'l therefore in conflict with the Conference to create new local authorities whiCh would affirmation of the Bill and its agreement extend for miles round the 5-mile area. I with its objects. The operations of the do not think one sound argument. can be ·water and Sewerage Board extend m d in favour of a limited area.. So far as beyond the 5-mile radius, and it seems the debate has gone, there has been no argu~ that it will not be long before the tram ment put forward that would convert any service crosses the 5-mile limit. The reasonable-minded person in favour of a public utilities of gas, electric light, smaller ar·ca. The hon. member for Logan water, and other services, particularlv declared in favour of the larger area, and the sanitary service, have been extendf'd he probably knows the problems that would to points reaching more or less to the al'lS('. lO~mile radius." ::\lr. KERR: He modified that. 'Mr. Chuter also pointed out-I have not Mr. WRIGHT: The alteration as compared his words here-the importance of further with the original Bill introduced last year river crossings and of future planning for in regard to existing loans, and also . the arterial roadways, etc. T.ake, as an instance, proYision regarding the benefited. area, 1s a the main Cleveland road. The leader of the decided improvement. The poolmg of the Opposition made some reference to the Bel~ lichilities is thn onlv sound method whJCh mont Shire, to the effect that under a 5-mile can be adopted successfully to carry out the limit that would be the onlv shir·e which IJroposal. I am satisfied that, if the pronswn would be ct]t in two. or which. the boundary ~ontained in the Bill introduced last year linP would cross. The main road to Cleve­ had been carried out, it would hav': landed land passes throu~h the Belmont Shire, and us lar~ely in chaos. At the least tt would naturallY it is a heavv burden on the rate­ 0 have rrquired an army of clerks and accoun­ payers in that area. At the same time it t.ants to keep tallv of the large number of can be logically argued that the road is of benefited ar<>as which have been created, and ju•t ''s much importance. if not of more which it would ha, • been possible to create importanc·e, to city interests than it is to the und~r that Bill. Belmont Shire; and if a 5-mile radius were adopted, that portion of Belmont which is At 2.30 p.m .. outside the 5-mile radius would be called The CHAIR\f•iN OF CmniiTTEES. (Mr. Pollock, upon to meet the cost of the upkeep of that Grruory) relieved the Speaker m the chmr. road to Clewland. 1'lr. WRIGHT: I believe also that, whilst Hon. \V. H. BAR:"rES: vVould not the same the pooling of the liabilities may mean argument apply to a 10-mile radius? some additional expense to some. of. the .more Mr. \VRTGHT: Not to the same extent. closclv populated city areas, still It wi!l. be Ynn go another 5 miles further out to start a boon to the ontside local ~tuthonties. with. Speaking of the . dist~·ict with whiCh I am most in touch, It will be a boon to the Mr. KERR: You mic:·ht ~o another 100 I3ulimba peoplo. as it will ~·elieve them to a miles, but the same argument would apply. large exteLb of the unfair burden whi~h Mr. WRIGHT: It. does not affect the they have been carrying for years P.ast Ill position to nearly the same extent. What keeping open a vehicular ferry at Buhmba. [Mr. Wright. City of BriBbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1161

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Pass some of the cannot take the people by tram from Bel­ liability on· to the outside districts. mont and drop them half-way to their Mr. KERR: Which never use it. destination. They have to travel for the rest of the journey ove;- a State ra1lway. Mr. WRIGHT: Speaking generally, that For the sake of the benefits of smgle controL is the position all round, and, when the and considering the small amount it would liability is spread over the whole area, the mean to the Jebit account in the railway liabilitv becomes less. I could have supplied su-vice, I think it would be the best thing figures· this afternoon to show that the local for everybody concerned if the State took authorities which will have to bear a little over the tram,way. extra cost are well able to bear the burden. The local authorities in the outside area will The Local Authorities' Conference was of have a large amount of developmental work opinion that the representation under this to do as the city spreads and population measure is too restricted, and it recom­ increases, and it is only a fair thing that mended the division of the area into ten those charges should be made a charge upon wards, returning three members each, involv­ a common fund. That appears to me to be ing a council of thirty aldermen instead of tho only sound method of dealing with the the twenty-one proposed. I am of opinion question of liability for the future develop· that we would be making a grave mistake if ment of our cities. I am quite satisfied that we provided for representation along these the members of the Balmoral Shire Council, lines. The representation which the Bill of which I was previously a member, are provides for is easily the best, and it is in favour of the Bill. certainly the most economical. It means that the local authority elections may be held on Mr. ELPHINE·TO:-lE: You are looking at the the Stat" electoral rolls, although, perhaps, matter from your own point of view. in one or hvo instances some rectification Mr. WRIGHT: I am not speaking from may be necessary where portions of elec­ my own point of view. torates are outside the Greater Brisbane Mr. ELPHINSTOXE: It is all in that direc­ area. Sp·eaking generally, however, the tion. expense of having to provide a different set of rolls will be saved, and considering that Mr. WRIGHT: I am arguing that it will our State rolls are kept rigidly up to date. b' better for everybody concerned. I have a better system of representation could not not heard an:-· reasonable argument from be proYided than the Bill contains. the hon. member's quarter against the Bill. I was very much snrprised to find that the Mr. ELPHINSTONE: ::-.rot against the Bill, Conference of Local Authorities had decided but against the area. to recommend a salan of £500 a year for Mr. KERR: You have been asleep. each alderman. The 'sum provided for in last year's Bill was £200. I was especially Mr. WRIGHT: I have not heard a sound surprised when I remembered that the argument from either of the hon. members majority of the members of that conference, in favour of the limitation of the area. I when elected, were strongly opposed to the do not intend to use the parish pump, but pavment of members of local authorities. At the Bulimba ferry proposition and the anv rate, I take the opportunity of congratu­ Belmont tramway proposition ·are two very latin~ the conference on their change of sound illustrations in favour of pooling the liabilities and making them a charge on a front I am one of those who beli.eve that common fund. I know that the Balmoral every man is worthy of his hire. The Shire Council will ha Ye every encourage­ amount set down in the Bill-£400-is very much better than the original amount of ment, and immediately this Bill i~ passed­ as we all hope it will be-they will hasten the £200. business of getting the ferry into comm~s­ :Mr. KERR : It is 100 per cent. better. sion. I believe that when the ferrv is in :Mr. WRIGHT: Personally, I would not commission it will be the best vehicular ferry have minded if the amount had been £500. service in the State of Queensland. I am quite satisfied that we shall be able to Take the position so far as Belmont is elect good, wund, reasonable, and sensible <:oncerned. The leader of the Opposition men to that council. who will be prepared to mentioned Belmont, and an hon. member give the whole of their services to the good on this side made some interjection in con­ government of this city. I hope that we nection with the Belmont tramway. The shall be successful in electing a majority hon. member for vVynnum knows something representing the working class. They will about the difficulties which have been experi­ give their full time to the job, and will do enced in the past by the people in that sm.al! their best for the benefit of the people whom benefited area in keeping open the Belmont they are sent there to govern. Other cities tramway. So burdensome has the tramway in the world which take the lead in local become that it has been closed down for government matters are noted for having some months. Since then they have been working-class members o;, their councils. making payments of interest and redemp­ Glasgow is a striking example in that regard. tion in rf"Spect of the capital liability with and manv other leading cities could also be absolutely no return. The tramway has mentioned. I am one of those who believe praYed itself-it may not be always so-a that the business man is not always the most white elephant. It is not the fault of the successful man in local government matters. council, but, to a large extent. the fault of and ofttimes when vou have a body of busi­ the system of local government. At any ness men discussing a certain pro]ect a _lot rate, the Belmont people and the hon. mem.­ of the discussion centres round the questwn ber for Wynnum were optimistic enough to of whether the utility is going to pay, rather think that it would become a p.1ying pro­ than as to whether it is going to serve the position. Personally I would like to see the P'"ople as a whole. I could quote a little Government-! have tried to get them to do experience that I had during my connection so and failed-take over the tramway. Even with local goYernment affairs. During the under a Gr·eater Brisbane scheme there t.ime that the Tramway Trust Bill w.as being would still be dual control, because you debated in this Chamber, many metropolitan Mr. Wright.] li62 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

local authorities were interesting themselves authorities fixed the area at 20. perches, 22 in the measure, and hon. members will perches. and so on, At the present time remember that during the last stages a most there exists a conglomeration of sizes of frantic effort was made bv the members of residt•niial areas in the metronolis. \Vhilst the local authorities to delay its passage. the Local Authorities Act ga,;e very much wider powers to loeal authoritiPs in general, Hon. M. J. KIRWAN: They wanted to give that at least is one of the powers it would Badger a new franchise. have been wise for the G'overnment to have Mr. WRIGHT: I agree with the hon. exercised and fixed a uniform ure.a. member for Brisbane that that was one of The hon. member for Aubigny also made t hP reasons, but there was also another big some reference to the fact that the Minister factor, and that was that they had not suffi­ had mentioned th

~,s they became thickly populated, wnsideration. Those outside areas should Th0 HmiE SECRETARY : It is within the not be forced to come under the Bill. 5-mile radius. [3 p.m.] .Mr. KERR: Part of it is. I would leave The U~vernment have alway3 taken the Moggill out. attitude in regard to thHe matters of saying "Give it a chance." Have the Government The HO~iE SECRET.\RY: Kedron also? had a chance? Their financial chaos is well Mr. KERR: The hon. member who reprc­ kr.o'Yn throughout Queensland, and we ~ents Kcdron can speak for that part of it. should not take up the attitude of saying, I am going to deal with the principLs ''Give this a chance." of the Bill as far as I can make them out. I have shown that variom; cities in other The Bill sets out to co-ordinate a multiplicitv countries of the world did not start like of >:uthoritiP'. While I agree up to a certaii'J Brisbane is starting to-day, but extended limit I';' regard to roads, water channelling, their local government activities as they san1tat1on, an-d so on, it is InQre a 1natter grew. I am going to say something about of bringing about uniformity in these matters the density of population. I can see no than co-ordinating them. The word "co­ semblance of an argument for including the ordination" does not apply in regard to outside area in the Bill. It would not be roads. 'l'he proper word to use would be right for me to take up the attitude of "uniformity.". I venture to say that, had pulling a structure down, the building up the Greater Bnsbane scheme come into exist­ of which, no doubt, has taken Mr. Chuter ence prior to the constitution of the Metro­ and other officials of the departmfmt a good politan vVater Supph- and Sewerarrc Board many yeare. It would not be right for me and pri_or to the institution of electric light; to pull down their edifice unless I was and prwr to the appointment of the Tram­ prepared to put something in its place. way 'l'nnt, for various reasons there would Before I do that I wish to point out that have been a '.'·idespread clamour for separate the area under the Bill includes 380 square managem~nt m rPgard to these undertakings. miles with a population of 240,000. How 'l'o-day this Great-er Bnsbane scheme is going much bett<'r it would be to take the area. to haye this outstandmg effect so far as the which I have proposed. The advantage water supply and se>verage is concerned, that would be that we should then have a co~­ we shall not ha.ve a board elected by popular pact area. and the density of population vote to control these• utilities. The Citv would be greater, and there would be better Council. when it controls the greater area·. control. Ther0 would be a lack of control will not manage that undertaking, but will in t.he larger area. 'rhe ar•'a which I have apprimposition of a guaranteeing authority g'?mg to carry the scheme to finality, you on twcnty-oix existing local authorities was will ha.-e to include the whole of Queens­ not passed. I do not agree wth the super­ land. A lot of people believe that under imposition of a co-ordinating authority. The this Bill they will pay a lower rate because Roval Commission held in New South Wales of the returns from the trams. The Bill cm~ the Greater b:vdney scherne gave soJjd makes provision for incorporating the Tram. g-rounds for consideration. It p·roposed the way Trust with the City Council. I do not establishment of an inner zone, the abolition know thrtt I am altogether in favour of such of all local authorities within that inner zone, a thing. If I use the trams I expect to pay one! the cmation of an authoritv to exercise for the service performed. but I do not expect onlv certai;1 func+ions in an outer zone. It t<1 pay for somebody else's concrete drain. recommended the striking of two rates, and There is no equity .at all in that. In the r understand that it was stated that there area I have mentioned, 99~ square miles. "ould be no friction as a result. These three-fourths of the people live who will things can be •re!.\ulated. I euggest to the come under this scheme. What facilities are Government that they take advantage of likely to be provided for those outside areas those succe"ful Greater City >chomes in the for a very considerable number of years 9 ether parts of th.c world, and not a.ttempt \Yhen the peop~e in them are likel;v to get to ;·each in one day what the other cities some compensatmg return, then the:c may be have il'radually nttained to. No .one can say brought 1.n. I would .not care if they were that that is not <> wise suggestiOn. It has brong·ht m compulsol'llv unde1· those condi­ been suggested that the Moggil Shire shou]d tions, but at present it. is unjust. as I shall come into thi, scheme because of the m am show later when dealing with financial roads. There ie no argument in that at all. considerations. 'Vh.v not bring in Toowoomba or some other The HoME SECRETARY: Does not that argu­ plaN\ equally distaut? ment apply to the 5-mile radius? Hon. ::\1. J. KIRWA)l: Why be ridiculous? Mr. KERR : No ; the hon. gentleman Mr. KERR: That is no mme ridiculou& cannot put it that way. The whole Bill than to say that tlw Moggill Shire &hould be [Mr. Kerr. Oit:y of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1165

included in the scheme because of the main and Greater Brisbane 1. We are starting road; in that area. Even if you adopt the off with too gr<)at an idea. It is all right to area that I lmve suggested, there will still ha vc a great Yi::;ior. be joint control on the part of the Moggill Hon. M. J. KIRWAN: Whv not hitch your Shire with the Moreton Shire over the ,tgOJ' to a star? , Mows-ill ferry, also in connection with the Mr. KERR : I think the Government have Pine Shire. If the area is restncted done so ; " rc;ard to this Bill. They have liS I have sugg·<·cteri, a good deal of the JOint work will vani ·h, but there will still be hitched their ' agon to Mars, which we have joint controi left. Greater :\few York heard so much talk about lately. a population d 5,500,000, yet the area I wi h to emphasise what I have said covered is less than the metropolitan area. of fn n the fmancial point of view. The total Brisbane. Let me show how the people have loo '1 indebt,,dness of the suggested Greater drifted and formed a densely-populated area. Bri;L;.o,- n ·oa. and the arc a that has been According to the census, between 1S91 and ~xcludr d. is £2,137,265. The tot a! indebted­ 1921, over a 3-mi1 8 ~-adius, the deneity of the nc<;;s of the Greater City arelectorate, but became it is one of the Mr. KERE: The hon. member has hit nicest districts. (Laughter.) the nail on the head. When the people of The H01!E SECRETARY: The hem. gentleman Nioggill want imprm-ernents they will come l1as been reading 'l'. ::\1. Burko's ad l'ertise­ into the Greater Brisbane area. ments. Mr. WRIGHT: Do you suggest that Moggil! Mr. KERR: 'I'hat district has not been should not be included until the people Ill &ci.tled because it has not been favoured with that shire ask to be included? travelling facilitie,, while such facilities have been provided for such places as \Vyr.num, Mr. KERR: Yes; they can ask when they Sherwood, and Corinda. The population has want to enter the area. followed the railwaY line in those directions. Mr. CAUTER: They might not get in then. lt ma0 seem peculi~r that pecple should live Mr. KERR : That is a very narrow view such a long way ;:,way froin the city when to take. It is not right for the Government !heir duty calls them to the city; bnt as to include the area proposed in the Bill. soon as the trams are extended between the Let us take the interest charge alone per -different "spokes" of travelling facilities that ratepa;:er. It m" ,UJs an imposition of at now run out wide, so will the population least £1 5s. 2d. on the outside areas. Let densify between those lines. me explain. The ratepayers outside the ar· a Hon. W. H. BARKES: That is not a sug­ l)rovided in the Bill would, on n1y sugges­ g-o,tion that the people of Wynnum will tion. have imposed on thmn for intcr;:·-~t only ;un away from me? (Laughter.) ,£1 5s. 2d. per ratepayer, and the y,eople Mr. KERR: No, they are too well satisfied within tho area, if the Goverument echeme with their representative. i carried out, wr!l be allowed to n .. t off i'ltercst indobted!Jess to the extent cf £1 'J'h:~ _Ho:vm SECRETARY : y-our argn1nent is f~. lOd. That is in intcre, t alone. The to extend t.ho tramwavs in the Greater Bris- bane area? " lean indebteduess per ratepayer in the area under the Bill is £31 10.-. 6d., and in !VIr. KERR: The policy of the Brisbane the 5-mile area. I suggest £40 17s. 3d., »hilst Tramv.ay Trust appears to be 'o build that of the outer 5-mile area is £9 2s. The between oxi~ting lines to give the people Bill, therefore, r~presents a saYing to the fa~ilities. That must be the policy of the n.t tepayers in the smaller area of £9 6s. 9d. TrucL, bccausP they have extended the tram,­ JlCr capita, incrosing the liability of the wa'" to Ashgrove. which is between mtepayers in the vutside area by £22 Ss. 6d. Toowong and Kelvin Grove. Ashgrove is If they ar ' not going to get any conc;es,.wn, within 3 miles of the citv. The Trust will whv should the rcttcpayers out,ido th1s area le. tor hCLvc to extend the" line from Kelvin ,, h.ich I ha ye sug~·csted, who do not want to Grove towards AshgTove to open up that come under the Bill, be raddled wit!• a a.rea, and abo to vVilston and Newmarket, liability oi £22 Ss. 6d. that they never between Kelvin Grove and Kedron. That incurred? It might b' said that would be for is why I sav here there is no nccc•-sity to ,, a tor-channelling and roads. By the time go beyond tho area which I have sugge3ted. thov are ready for those improvOIY1ents-·which I,ot us have a look at what it means. might not be for the next t·,,·enty or thirty ''I'he density of population is a most import­ :years-that money wili be spent. and the v,nt question in regard to the Greater work on which it was expended will be gone Brisbane scheme. Birmingham has a density and these ratepayers will have to pay for of population of 19 per acre, Nottingham something they never noticed. That is out­ 24, Chicago 20, Baltimore 30, Wellington 7, side all reason. Mr. Kerr.] 1166 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

·what about the injustice to my consti­ l\Ir. KERR: Just tho opposite will ensue. tuents in the Moggill Shire Council? These Thev have differ2nt valuations now. Let an the figures showing the relative densit;v the hon. gentleman just look at the or·dinary of population in the following local authon­ general rate they will have to pay, apart tics :- from the burden of the loan which they will Population per sq. mile. ba,·c to carry. You wust remember that th•· Jthaca 4,589 mmr,bcrs of the local authorities in these "Windsor 4,750 catc·iilitv for loan 2xp0nditure, but they are The H011E SECRETARY: A great amount of g-oing· to be saddled with 2d. more in the £1 loan money has been borrowed since 1918. in the general rate. \Vhat for? I have <'xamincd this scheme to see if I am on the Mr. KERR: I believe that is so; however, right track, and I cannot find what for. it does not alter the position; but after If it is because of th facilities existing in carefully reviewing the point, I think this th,s citv. whv not tax the visitors from is a sop to the ratepayers within a certain 'ioL•Wom;.,ba and Townsville who come to the area. The hon, gentleman will be able to ci t v :' You would have the same communitv say to three-quarters of the ratepayers in of · inter<:'st as vou ha H' in the case of the this Greater Brisbane scheme "Your rates people of Sa.m.ford, which is not included. will be lowered." Of course they will be, This scheme is not practicable and is but who is going to pay? It is no sop to not workable without the necessary my electors, who will have to foot the bill harmonv and the necessarv enthusiasm. and pay, and I see no justification for it. There 'is no justification for doing what Apart from the loan rates, of which they has been done. Let me take a piece will have to bear the burden when consoli­ of land in the outside area the unimproved dated, I sh'all again quote the Moggill shire value of which is £500. What is the rate -and I only quote the Moggill shire because going to be? Th·c owner of that piece of I know all about it-the same remarks will land will be asked to pay an additional £4 be applicable to other shires-- a year in rates. I am more than justified in raising these matters. I am fully con­ Mr, \VRIGHT: You need better roads there. vinced that the Greater Brisbane scheme Mr. KERR: There might be better roads would be workable if it included only those in Townsville for all I know, but I am not authorities which I have mentioned and we concerned about that. The Greater Brisbane abolished the present shire councils and their Council will not build those roads. The administrative staffs and had one central Mop;gill Shire Council could build roads just authority. It is a 5-mile radius approxi­ as cheaply if their area is outside the scheme mately, and you would have no new boun­ as if it is inside. daries as you will have under this Bill. The HOME SECRETARY: Do you favour a You would. have a better chance of success, differential tax? and if in twelve months we saw that all was going well, what would there be to stop Mr. KERR: I do, but there is uniform us from extending the boundaries? There rating on differential valuation& and those would be nothing to stop us extending the ratings which stand on 1st October, 1925, boundaries to include the more thinly­ will be the ratings that will be observed. populated areas. As soon as this Greater That is -the position under the Bill. Nobody City is established we shall see that, can tell me that the Moggill shire will have instead of the population extending to Indoo­ its valuations decreased. If the Home roopilly. Yeerongpilly, and such places, it is Secretary will now give me an assurance going to come in closer to the city as a that those valuations will be decreased, he r0snlt of the facilities offered by the trams, will dry me up ~mmediately. The hon. ao< has been the case in other parts of the gentleman cannot grve me that assurance. world. This will have the tendency of The HOME SECRETARY : The Bill gives you creating slums in the more thickly-populated an assurance that it can be done. parts. which will cause greater expenditure, and the outside areas will receive no benefit Mr. KERR : The hon. gentleman has said at all. It is unjust to consolidate the loan that there are different valuations. Will money which has been expended and charge he assure me that these values will be this to individuals who had no sav in the decreased? I say that it will not be done, and why not face the facts? expenditure. The law provides that the people shall have a vote as to whether loan The Hmm SECRETARY: It was ·done in Rock­ money shall be expended or· not, and it is hampton, Townsville, and other places. wrong to tax these people when they hae [Mr. Kerr. Oity of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Oity of Brisbane Bill. 1167 no opportunity of sayin.g whether they would spirit of apathy, and the fear tb:tt the agree to the ~xpenditure or not. What is o<\ners of property would have to pay for to be gained by passing it on to posterity the improvements, have kept Brisbane in the by consolidation? The only thing to be condition it is in to-day, and that is a con­ gained is that the interest will be less and dition we would continue to wallow in if the redemption will be less. Those are two this Government did not possess a broad

almost i, in constaut co::~ftict with son1c bod:l or or possibly even during the next twenty-five another. The Breakfast Creek business vears? The citv mav double itself within occ.1sioned >t good deal of trouble with the next twenty-five y'ears if we continue to adjoining authorities; with South Brisbane grow at the rate we are to-day; yet hon. we were in conflict about the bridge; oH the members opposite tell us that a 5-mile radius streets we were in conflict with the Tramways is good enough, becat!se we can take the Con1pa-ny, and no~,iV "\VO arc- possibly in con­ ol her places in later on. \V e have an example f-lict with the Tram\Yav Tru&L Th.~ more of the difficulty of arranging matters between bodies there are th.• 'more difficulties we local authoritie·· bordering on the boundary Lre up against; and what applies to the of cities which have grown. Some greater Brisbane City Council applies to other local city schemes have been instituted in New authorities. It will therefore be easily under­ Zealand. and many of the local authorities ,;ood that the wider the radius from the which were originally invited to come into Ucueral Post Office the less danger of conflict those eehemes are to-day exp-eriencing a between va.rious lmdlcs. I can undcr3tand g-reat deal of difficulty in getting into them that there ma;:r \Vell be a great,C'r connrnmity because the greater city people are working of interest within a 10-mile radius than against them. That is a trouble that we within a 5-mile arc:;. becuuse a 10-mile area have to look to. I think the Minister is will extend as far as Sandgate, for instance. (;XCe(~dlnglv wise in bringing in a measure It seems to me an extraordinary harclship covering the whole area that he contemplates that the people between Bri,banc and Sand­ will he benefited by this greater city scheme. gate should have tr' bear the burden of con­ strucLing and maintaining a roa.d to corn­ l-Ion. :\1. J. KIR\VAK: In New Zealand it municate between Brisbane and one of its is a case of the rich relation not requiring seaside and health resorts. which should he the pom relations. co~mected "ith ;h3 city itself not only b~­ Mr. CARTER: That is exactly the case. rad but also by means of a good motor The outskirts of any lac al authority around road-a general highway-so that the people Brisbane might complain, because more r.1ight travel over it whenever their plea­ money ,, as being spent in the centre sure or their husin ss called them to do than on the outskirts; bnt exactly the same so. If the 5-mik radius were adopted, we argument col!ld be used in connection with 'vould have the example of Sandg d.c and the Greater Brisbane scheme. Naturally, Brisbane using a road which the intermediate there ,,-ill not be as much money spent on local a.uthoritic9 would have to pay fo!·. the out• kirts as in the centre, because there That would be one of the snectacles under is not the call for the? same attention. That th~ whome whicit hon. meinber; c>pposite favour. The hrm. member for P,uJimba applies everywhere. If we had only a 5-mile emphasised the caq· of busine-;s people using radius, the same thing would obtain. The a road from Bulimba up to th'' city, running people on the outskirts of the 5-mile radius through an arec not controlled by the would kick up the same row-if it was neces­ Gneatcr Brisbane authority if it were con­ sary to kick u11 a row-as would the people stituted on a 6-n1ile basis. Common sell.Sf_' oa the outskirl·s of a 10-milc radius. Under must show hon. members opposite that the the Bill we are going to have the same proper method is to have a radius big euough uniform systmn of valuation, and where the to cover every activity serving Brisbane. rates are based upon that valuation I am satisfied that there is nothing to fear in that Another pleasure resort and health resort respect. No one is going to suppose that the of Brisbane should be Mount Glorious. We land in the Moggill Shire is going to be should be in a position to connect up that valued at the same rate as the land in Queen 1·esort without running through other shires. street. That would be an absurd supposition. Any road from Brisbane to Mount Glorious Provision is made in the Bill for differential should be a road direct from the city. It rating in rural areas. There is nothing to would be a sad state to contemplate if the complain of. Koting all that has been said ::Y1oggill Shire and a number of other shires bv hon. members opposite, I am satisfied that had to pay for the upkeep of that road lhe outside areas YYill benefit to the same with little probability of using it. That is extent as the city area, and that they will exactly what is taking place to-day. If we only pay their fair proportion of rates. It have_ not a road to such a place as 1\1ount is proposed to include a very ambitious area Glonous becaus-e certain bodies cannot afford of 385 square miles. It is not too much to to construct it, then it is a reflection upon contemplate a seheme of that size. I am Brisbane itself. If a Greater Brisbane only sorry that those who designed our scheme obtained, and we constructed a road strPds originally did not make similar pro­ to :'daunt Glorious through certain outside Yision for the growth that has taken place shires. it would be a hardship if the bodies in the outside areas. If the same provision bebn •en Brisbane and Mount Glorious had had been made for thp strcets in our citie•· as to pay for the upkeep of a road that served we propose l!nder this scheme, we wonl-d the pe?ple of Mount Glorious and the people have been much better off to-dav. There of Bnsbane more than the people within was a lack of vision on the part of the those areas. It must be patent that the best person or persons \Yho designed and lai-d out :;::erYiC'e is given where the best means of Brisbane. I am given to understand that con1municstiDn is tnaintained bv one Queen, A del aide. ancl other streets in our authority along the route. " city were originally laid out a chain wider than they are at present, but some English Ho11. members have gone to some trouble officer, who was in charge of the place at the to tell us that the people of Moggill or some time, thought that Brisbane would never be [211r. Carter. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1169

anything more than a mer~ village, so he fining because of that in the citv men­ cut the width .down to a cham. tioned. In Wellington they contr:ol the abattoirs and the many other activities I Mr. KELSO : It was the Government that have mentioned. The people are very well­ did that. served bv an electric tram service which is Mr. CARTER: It was not the Govern· comparatively cheap, and the trams are ment; Queensland was included in another cntirelv under the control of the council. State at the time. Tha.t spirit has obtained They cover the whole city area and run out almost up to the present time. \Ve find as far as 6 or 7 miles. that to-day the streets are being widened Mr. KELSO: Do thov run outside of the at a great cost so as to make preparation city a_rea? • for a better city. In spite of that fact hon. members opposite want to see continued :\Ir. C_-'\.RTER: Yes. out to some of the the same tinkering methods as obtained suburban local bodies, but mainly in the then. I am quite satisfied that, if we are city. The eleetric light is cheap and well going to consider the future, we arc not established. I venture to sav the water doing too much to give the Greater Brisbane >'Upply \\as put in at a cost eql1al to that of area a radius of 10 miles. It is po.,sible Brisbane, if not greater. They brought their that in another fifty or sixty years considera­ \Ya ter something like 15 or 17 miles from the tion will be given to taking in some of the \Yainuiomata River to \Vellington, and surrounding areas. I am satisfied that in \\-hen the \Vainuiomata was likelv to run less than that period Brisbane will have short they put a tunnel-2 miles 'in length grown sufficiently to justify the pr-oposals of --through the Orongo Orongo Range to the> Government, and that the people then bring water to the town supply. These v ill say that some wisdom was displayed by people have had greater charges to meet P. I [lD1 satisfied that a 10-mile radius is for the estab!;shment of their service. but not too much. \Vo have to take into con­ owing to their greater city and their side-ration the pleasur<> and health resorts of cx:ccllc~nt governn1ent they pay a lovver th0 people and make provision to connect co~t than we pay in Brisbane. Here in them up with the centre. Bl'i~.bnt. It IIH1.V be all right to do that, but Mr. \V RIGHT: I know that. I would point out that in Hddition to having to pa:,- the amounts that I haye quoted the ::\lr. KELSO: I know a case of a council rates v ould ha Ye to be increased beyond \Yhich has a larg·e progressive scheme in that amount by 2S per cent. The question view and w.1nts to get money with "·hich to j,: ·would twent: -one aldermen be capa.ble do ne.essary work, whilst on the other hand of c.nrying on the ramifications 'Of a city my friend, the hon. member for \Vindsor, the size the l\Iinister suggests? I doubt it has managed to get it done in his electorate \·cry much. already, and there they are in a very nice The IlmrE SECRETARY: Sevent,"-two mem­ ·say with thei· drainage and their electric bers can carry on all the ramifications of the light work done. But when you go to a, dis­ whole State. trict such as Ked ron, where the population is starting to increase, you find they are Mr. KELSO : The conditions arc not wantmg money to expand. If they were parallel. brought into this Greater Brisbane scheme ::Ylr. l\LIX\YELL: Hear, hear! they would be immediatelv saddled with a 11t. KELSO: In one case the aldermen p01:tion of the interest and redemption in are carrying out certain specific vvork, but respect of the loans of the city itself which in Parliament we doal with principles. We has been in existence for many yea;·s, and lay do'\ n c ortain principles which other people has built up a debt of about £1,SOO,OOO. I have to carrv out. The y;,rork is not com­ \vould therefore like to suggest to the Jl.fin­ parable. Under the Local Authorities Act ister that, if he is bent on having this 10-mile we ha vc a true ideal of local governmllnt, radius, it would be a fair thing if each local "·hero the respomibility is divid -d between authority were allowed to carry its own "nail areas, and in each of those areas per­ indebtedness till, in the course of natural haps a dozen men who take an interest in development, the young·er local authorities local government make it their business to had got their fair share of loan monev and mod aud look after the intereots of the things were fairly well balanced. ·It is \Yhole of that district. Take, for insta,nce, certainly most unfair at the present time to one of the larger electorate' included in the pool all these debts. Bill. Is it pos,ible for one man to look I do not intend to go into the figures dealt after the interests of that electorate? It w1th by the leader of the Opposition. stands to reason that the representative is The HOME SECRETARY : You can deal with not going round to look at every little drain, them at the Committee stage. as it would. be manifestly impossible to do Mr. Kelso.] 1172 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill. that; and then you come back again to tho municipalities. They have the power in the system of leaving the whole of the work of Bill at the present time to do that by means the council to paid officers. of an ordinance. Lab:ly we had a debate on the question of The Ho~IE SECRETARY: No, you cannot thee constitution of the Metropolitan ·water make an ordinance without laying it on the and Sewerage Board. Hon. members on this table of this House. side recommended that the Board should be administerE>cl bv commissioners. I am not Mr. KELSO: That is so, but the Minister too sure, in spite of the Bill, that an inves­ will agree that the proposed ordinance tigation should not be made into the possi­ would originate with the City Council. We bility of local government by comm.issioners. know perfectly well that under a system of This method has been found successful both a unicameral parliament, the Government in Canada and America. in power would treat the matter as a party question and adopt the suggestion if it had Hon. M. J. KIRWA:i": Kot in America. been previously approved by the Governor Mr. KELSO: I have seen accounts where in Council. Ko party in power would be government by con1mission in A1nerica has likely to disregard the \\ ishes of the council been a success. Before \Ve comn1it ourselves of the city of Brisbane, because what is the ttJ an in1mensc scheme like this, it is neces­ use of conferring those powers on the alder­ sary that all the avenues should be explored men if we are to find fault with them when to find out whether it is not better to have they make an ordinance? even a better scheme than the ono proposed. Incidentally, while on that subject, I However, taking the Bill as it is. we find desire to point out that this provision is that the twenty-one gentlemen >rho are to made in the Bill. administer it will have to give a good dc·al " An ordinance or part of an m·clin­ of time io its affairs. As 1 said before, the ance may be repealed by the Governor work will really be carried out by expert in Council by Order in Council." officers. I doubt verv much whether all the saving "that has been 'suggested by hon. mem­ That is an extraordinarY provision, be­ bers opposite will be realised. We know cause, when ordinances are )Jassed they have perfectly well that people running a large to be agreed to b\' the Governor in Council Echeme such as this is look at the matter and have to be p'!aced on the table of this of expense in a large way. I could illus­ H.ouse. After all that is done-and it may tl·ate my argument by referring to the happen that the ordinance is discussed by Commom1 ealth. It was said when the Com­ .the House-the Governor in Council has a monwealth was inaugurated that its cost of right to repeal that ordinance or alter it administration would be no more than it ,-·ithout it being rediscussed by Parliament. would cost to keep a clog. The Ho~IE SECRETARY : The Governor in Hon. M. J. KIRwA": V\' e wE'l'e told that Council is always subject to the criticism the cost would be somewhere about 9d. per of Parliament. head. :lvir. KELSO: That is so. but at the Ye have an immense time Parliament may be in recess, and the organisation, and tho larger tho organisa­ Governor in Council has the power to annul tion the larger relatively the cost grows. I an ordinance that has been agreed to. fail to see from that point of view where we The hon. member for Bulimba tried to ar< going to gain much. \V e had a very put up a good fight for the Bill which has informative and illuminating addres.s from been introduced by the Government, and he the hon. member for Port Curtis, who evi­ told us that, ·when there was a conference .dently made good use of his time in New to decide the question of taking over the Zealand in ascertaining what they were tramways. the alleged business experts who doing in the way of local government. The represented the local authority with which hon. gentleman admitted that, although these the hon. member is connected. had such cities were mere flea-bites in comparison little confidence in the ability of the mem­ with the proposed Greater Brisbane, yet they bers of the Tramway Trust to carry on the controlled numerous utilities extending be­ busine" successfully, that they actually sug­ yond the area of the city. He told us that gested that their particular area should be the city of Wellington had the control of left out. That seems to me to bo one of ihe tram.ways, and that the tramways went the best arguments against popular control, out beyond the city for a considerable because thoee gentlemen, who were business di·tance. Tl1e same thing could apply to men, knew very well that under the business the city of Brisbane if there wc\s a smaJi.2r capabilities of a man like Mr. Badger the area than has been suggested. trams were well run, because they were The HoME SECRETARY: Do you advocate under undivided controL that? Mr. '\VRIGHT: Well run down! They are Mr. KELSO: I am quite in favour of the better run now. sugge·•tion that we should have a Greater Brisbane scheme of a moderate size, and Mr. KELSO : Those business men saw the' size \Yhich was suggested and the details that possibly under an elective body and mentioned by the hon. member for Enoggera with possible changes of the personnel of the appear to me to be a very fair compromise. Trust, and by reason of politics being intro­ I do not know whether it would not be a duced-on both sides I admit-there might good thing to commence with three or four not be a continuance of the policy of the municipalities, including the cities of North Trust. They feared the affairs of the Trust and South Brisbane. Even if we started would not be run in a businesslike \\ay, and with the cities of North and South Brisbane, that it might prove a failure. Evidently wo would have a nucleus of a Greater Bris­ that was in their minds, and they reserved bane scheme. The moment the aldermen of the right to exclude their particular section. the combined cities found that thev could I think that was ordinary busine"s prudence take on larger responsibilities, I would give on the part of the business men against them larger responsibilities, and allow them whom the hon. member for Bulimba is to take in and absorb some of the contiguous railing. [Mr. Kelso. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTElVIBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1173

J\'[r. WRIGHT: They were the first people v,ith a view to a£certaining how much the to ask for a tramway extension. town hall would cost. I got a leading Mr. KELSO: When a thing becomes a architect of the city-a native of Brisbanc;­ fact it is no use cutting off your nose to spite who was verv anxious to be ronnected with vour face. Had I been one of those gentle­ something ill his native city, and also the inen, I would be one of the first to ask for eonductor of the Brisbane Musical Union, something that was inevitable. I do not Mr. George Sa.mpson. The three of us hnd a think that assists the hon. member's number of sittings together and it was finally argument. left for this architect to draw a sketch plan, j1r. WRIGHT: Experience speaks. ,..-hich he did at hio own cost. He spent six weeks designing a rough plan fo-r a town Mr. KELSO: One point has been stressed, hall and he gave an estimate of the cost. and the Minister should take note of it-that At that time that hall could have been built i' the pooling of all the debts on a forty-year !or £150,000, and it would have provided ],asis. It certainly is very nice to have. these accommodation eqnal to the accommodation ciebts spread out EO that each particular proposed at the prc"sent time. If the matter generation will bear its share of the expense. had been left in the hands of an exp-ert to But, as has been vointed out by hon. mem­ <·arry out, that town hall would now have bers on this side and especially by the leader been built. I am only showing the defect of the Oppositio;,, under the Local Authorities of the system of elective representatives. Act tlwre are certain limits within which the l.'nfortunately at lhe present time, politics toans on ce,rtain classes of work arc to be has entered 'into ihe matter, and we have repaid. The Minister will be well advised fierce political fights, with the result that the to go into that rr:atter again and see that requirements of the city a·re left in the shade. these loans are s}'read out only over the The main thing "'· election time is whether period allowed under that Act. Undoubtedly Labour or the other side shall get in. I hold some of the loans have been obtain<:'d for that representation on that basis cannot give "·orks which I presume will be non-existent L" the best wo1·k in the interests of a city a Iter fifteen year', and it is quite EYident such as Brisbane. that if those loans are extended over forty vears they will l·.a.ve to be renewed pretty That particula1· phase is also bound up nearly three times during that period. That with the question of franchise. We find that is a point that should be gone into. There adult franchise is to be the franchise for the , ·.ust be some reason for including the pro­ election of representatives on the vision in the Bill, and no doubt the }linister [4.30 p.m.J Greater Brisbane Council. I, will explain why he included it. with others on this side of the ll ome, belie,-; that the old system of rate­ One of the greatest reasons why I am r:ayers and m\·ners only having a Yote was against the large area proposed is the fact a better svstem for all concerned. Recently that the outside areas are going to get it, I hav-e had a case brought under my notice o to speak. in the neck. There is not the in which a "·oman told me that she had to slightest shadow of doubt that, if areas pay all the rates on her house property. She ,-,-ithin a 10-mile or a 12-mile limit are said, '"I have three girls who are living in hought in, including Sandgate and ·\Vyrmum. my house rent free, and those girls have told it will be some vears before these outside me franklv that when the municipal election oreas can get man'v of the ben"lits which are is on they' arc going to ;-ote exactly opposite enjoyed by the se:otions nearer the centre of to the vv·a:,· I an1 going to vote." the city. It stands to reason that the citizens o i Brisbane will be very proud of the large ::\ir. BARBER: Hear,' hear! r.rea, because, I understand, it will he the Mr. KELSO: The hon. member for Bun­ l~rgest city in the world. But a.klermen daberg may have said " Hear, hear !" just a. naturally, with lai·ge funds to play with, will little prematurely, for I am not too sure that lnc ve large and expensive ideas in the way those three girls did not vote for the National­ (Jf expending monts, we are landed in an expenditurn the tenant paying the rates the landlord must ne! of which we do not know. Some' vears pay them himself. The tenant. had a vote ogo-I happened at the time to be hon: sec­ under the old system If he pa1d the rates, retary of the Brisbane Musical Union-the and it can be taken for granted that in most 1hen n1a vor was anxious to secure a town cas0s the tenant"- who took an interest in hall for "the citv. He met mo in the street local gm·ernment used to pay the rates. If one day, and I \va, talking to him about the they did not pay the Tates the landlord then town hall and he said, " If you will inter­ came in. \V hat is happening under. the view me I am prepared to go into the . present law of adult franchise? Everyone 1natter." who is over twenty-one years of age gets .a ::Ylr. WRIGHT: What town hall was that? vote in m11nicipal elections, and that does Mr. KELSO: It never materialised It is not seem to me to be right. materialising now. The mayor asked me if Mr. RIORDAN: You do not object to that, I could give him some professional assistance do you? Mr. Kelso.l 1174 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

Mr KELSO: I do objed to it. I eay only of Quoenslan~, but the world over, are that we should go back to the old system. demanding somethmg better ~han they were when what is known as the ratepayers' vote content with forty, fifty, or s1xty years ago. was in operation-that is, the vote of the They are not prepared to live under the people who are actually interested in the oamo conditions. They look for somethmg matter. better and it is a laudable desire. There is Mr. RIORDAN: Y on want to go back to the such ~ thing as standing still and thereby Stone Age. going back. and a nation or a people must either lwogress or go back. I take rt that Mr. KELSO: Those are the people who hero in Australia-in Queensland particu­ ought to have the vote. larh·-we are making an effort to progress, I do not soe that there is any power of and" therefore the general principles of a veto contained in the Bill. I do not remem­ Bill such as this should be welcomed by ber whether such a power was in the last most of us as an attempt to improve exist­ Bill or not. There ought to be some power ing conditions and make it possible for the of veto in connection with loans and in pc ople to derive the greatest possible benefit (',"'rtain other ·directions, so that the n1ajority from our legislation and the work of local of the ratepayers could be protected against authorities. a majority in the council who wen' of a I would like to refer to what the hon. certain political opinion diff·erent to their member for Port Curtis said to the effect own. It is ncce>·ary to han• that, because that local authorities in the metropolitan the whole of the Bill is based on politic'<. a re as had in y, ars gono by sho1vn no vision In these latter davs we haye decidlitical basis more or le,s. local authority in the metropolitan area is 2nd I think some provision should be made pruof that they were looking ahead. Th­ whereby, in an enwrgency, the ratepayers­ Wir1dsor Council's indebtedness to the Go­ perhaps after an election, wh.n something n'r:Jrncnt at the present time is about may be proposed which, in the opinio'l of a .£120.000 or £130,000, and I do not think n'ajoritv of them, is detrimental to the ti1at any other local authority owes an amount interests of tho city-might have some equal to that. That money has been spent chance of having the decision Yetoed. in imprO\·iug the area by carrying out Hon. M. J. KIRWA~: To whom would you l1rainage work. securing- parks, and doing give tho power of veto? all that was poo"ible to be done for th.c ;}fr. KELSO: I would give it to the people impro,-cmcnt of the conditions of the people who have created the council. of the . I recollect when I Hon. M. J. KIRWAN: That is, trust the first became an alderman of the 'Windsor people? Town Council, we had not a park in the whole ar. a, but now we have four or five Mr. KELSO: Exadlv. You can trust the ·cery fine parks. There was hardly any con­ people, and, if the cm~ncil for some reason crnto \Yater channelling in the area, and or other do something which in the opinion rnacticallv no drainage had been carrie.l of the majority of the ratepayers is not on!. On account of the lay of the country in right, there should be ,.ome way by which that portio·! of the metropolis, a very heavy they could have that decision brought into outlay was necessary to carry out the neces­ rev1ew. :::ar~,' drainage ,,-ork in the area. That \YOrk There are various other matter, which I has all been done, and as a result the town have noted for discussion. but I "·ould be of vVindsor is heaYilv indebted to the Go­ out of order in dealing ,,·ith them now. so \.Orlll11Cnt, but notwitl;standing that indebted- I ,hall defer m,y other remarks until a 110'", they have been abl' up to the present, later stage. and I am sure will be able in the future, n1eet Mr. T~\YLOR (Windsor): As has been to all their obligations. I am not so said by other speakers. this is an exceed­ sanguine as to think that in carrying out ingly importa.nt measure, and one which this schen1c '' ~ are going to effect v-ery great probably might have been considered many Pconomy from a. financial point of view, but years ago with very great advantage to the 1 " cPrtaiHly ought to b·e able to effect greater city of Brisbane and suburbs. On the pfficicllcy. If one result of the passing of general principle of a Greater Brisbane this Bill be gTeater efficiency in the Greater scheme, I think we are practically all Bnshane area, then groat good will be accom· agr.ee·d. Nearly all of us believe that plished, but personally I am inclined to there is a necessitv for a Bill for the co­ think we shall not find that there is going ordination of effort by the local authorities tv be a yery great saving from a financial in the metropolitan area. During the debate roint of view. I do not see how that is it has been suggested that men who in the possible. The demands of the people will past had control of local authority affairs be for something better even than exists did not look sufficiently far ahead. to-day. and that demand will have to be met. and will have to be paid for. Hon. M. J. KmwA~: That is true. not only of local authorities. · \Yhile I welcome the Bill, I do think that this is a case where we might hasten a little Mr. TAYLOR: Yes. Probabl:.· in fifty slowly, especially in r gard to the outside or sixty years the people ,,.;10 come after us areas that I ha,-e snoken about. I do not will say that we did not look far enough m•ticipate anything like the dangers or fear,; ahead. There is no doubt that we have to that the Home Secretary expects, if the area endeavour to visualise the needs not merelv is limited. I do not soe why it is not five or ten years ahead, but for fifty or sixty. possible so to draft the Bill as to specificall.. or even one hundred years, ahead. But it ·state that after the council has submitted is extremely difficult to know exactly what ih Drdinancc·s to the GoYcrnment the outside is best so that those who come after us and areas can come into the scheme within a carry on the affairs of government will not periud not exceeding five years. The councii be hampered in their efforts to improve the thon would have time to prove itself, and conditions of the people. The people not find out exactly whdher the scheme Wa3 fi1lr. KelRo. City of Brisbane Bill. [26 SEPTEMBER.] City of B1·isbane Bill. 1175 going to be successful or not. I do not see that the measure we are considering to-day anv reason whv it should not be successful is immeasurably superior to the one we were but at the same time there is very great fea:. then called upon to consider. We were told in the minds of quite a number of those in b the then Home Secretary of the various the 2parsely-populatcd areas outside the S-mile economies that would be effected if the Bill radius that they will be rated very high in was passed. \Vc had an hon. member tell­ Drder to carry out the scheme. That is the ing us to-day that, if that measure had been fear that is in their minds, and whether it passed, it would have taken no end of is justified or no( I do think that we might secrPtariles, collectors. and one official and pro,-ide that the other areas can come in another. to look after financial matters under within a period not exceeding five vears that scheme. It just shows how there has if the scheme prDVCS to be a good one. If been a change of opinion on the subject. the schc'me proves to be a good one in twe!Ye Everyone agrees that this Bill is very superior or eighteen months, then those other areas to the old Bill. bane area. At the present that population, we certainly have to be pre­ time each local authority has its steam roller pared, under a Bill such as we are considering and etaff of men to carry out its road work, to-da~·, to make provision to enlarge the and the·re is no doubt that at times the men area in which the Bill is going to operate. cannot be kept fully employed. Under the I see no reason why there should not be romprehensive scheme outlined in this Bill such an increase in the population of Bris­ better results should be obtained from the bane. It is growing very fast. I have been greater effort wh1ch will be made to cope here now about thirty years, and I recollect \\ith the work. when I came here first I went up to Korth I think that the Government might well Queensland and went through the whole of consider the advicability of somewhat reduc­ Queensland before I decided to remain in the ing the area proposed in the Bill for the time State. On my return to Sydney I recollect being. It is a fairly big area which is pro­ a friend asking, "What do you think of posed, and it embraces the bulk of the Quc•c>nsland ?" I said. '' I am only sorrv I ropulation. If th·' Bill, as I think it will, am a poor man." He asked, "\\'hy?''' I rn·oves to be a success, instead of having to said, " If I had £30,000 or £40,000, I would ask the people in the outside areas to come pnt every penny of it in land in the metro­ in, I believe, as the h9n. member for Logan politan area of Brisbane." I was so satisfied says, that they will come along and ask to from what I e-aw of the State at that time be taken in, and that will be very much that it must. develop, that I felt sure it was better than compelling them to come in as a safe place for anyone to invest money. the Bill proposes. What I thought at that time has been amplv moved during the intcn-ening :l .,ars. I have \V e had quite a lot of interesting informa­ seen the citv grow, as no doubt manv of tinn and some informative tables supplied llS have seen it' grow. I recollect Whicll the bv the Minist.er who introduced the Bill last horse trams were running in the str ets. and year-the present Secretary for Public In­ tlD\.Y \Ve have a very fine electric svsten1 \vhirh struction. They are well worth the study of i~ extending in ev8ry direction. ~ anyone who takes ar1 into-rest in local govern­ Hon. :?\1. J. KIRWAN : I rememb r the 'buses ment matters. The statistics tabled then runr._ing before there \verc any trains. <>ppear to be moo! accurate, and I would commend the perusal of them to all hon. Mr. TAYLOR: Kow, of course, we have a members who intend to take part in the moct up-to-date tramway system. In regard to debate, so that thcey will be able to criticise some of the activities that it is proposed to the measure in a helpful way. We want tlie take over, it remains with the council which criticism to be helpful and not of a destruc­ is to be constituted under this Bill to say when tive character; bnt, if there are weeJr points the-y 'vill take oYE>r any particular activity 111 the Bill, we should certainly point them which is mentioned in the Bill. I hope they out and attempt to obviate them when the will not take over the Metropolitan \Vater Bill comes into Committee. Supply and Sewerage Board until the place is '·wercd. I am afraid there will be ven· Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong): I beg to serious trouble if they do. Of course, th'e uow the adjournment of the debate. tramways arc a paying propositinn, and no Question put and passed. dnubt will continue to pay. The same can The resumption of the debate was made an probably be said of the electric light supply Orde·r of the Day for Tuesday next. at the present time. Ther-e is no doubt what- The House adjourned at 5 p.m. [ .Mr. Taylor.