Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1876

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1108 Deceased Wife's Siste1•, Etc. [ASSJD1BLY.] "Hansard.''

Wife,' begs now to present the same to the Legis· lative Assembly for its concurrence. "M. C. O'CoNNELL, " Presicl ent. " Legislative Council Chamber, "Brisbane, 25th October, 1876." Mr. GROO}I moved- That the Bill be now read a first time. Mr. W .A.LSH wished to know what had become of the Bill that was sent down from the Council last night ? He thought it was an extraordinary act of discourtesy to the Council that when they sent down a Bill of a similar nature to this, the Government, in­ stead of dispassionately discussing it on its merits, or giving notice of a time when they would clo so, counted the House out. He should like to hear some explanation from the Government as to the reason why, on an evening of their own business, just as themes­ sage of the Council was under discussion, they caused the House to be counted out? The SPEA.KER : I may inform the horror­ able member for Warrego that the message received last night was not the message that had been sent down from the Council, in consequence of a clerical error having been made in it; ancl it was returned, and this message has been sent down in place of it. Mr. W A.LSH said the Bill having been sent down to that chamber, it was the pro­ perty of that chamber until it was removed from it in the ordinary way. With all defe­ rence to the officers of the House, he did not think they had any bminess to part with the Bill until leave was given b.Y that House that it should be returned to the Legislative Council. Question put and passed.

"HANSARD." Mr. PA.LliiER said, in moving the motion standing in his name, he thought it was patent to every member of the House that they required something in the shape of a daily "Hansard." The reports in the morn­ ing paper were not by any means full or satisfactory, and, although he had less reason to complain than any member of the House LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. of the reports in that paper, yet, sometimes, very serious mistakes appeared in them. For Thursday, 26 October, 1876. instance, yesterday morning, he was reported Deceased VVife's Sister :Marriage Bill.-"Han::;ard."-Too­ to have said exactly the reverse of what he woomba Grammar SchooL-Case of Henr.v Jacobs.­ Railwav from Warwick to Swan Creek.-Working or did say. It was not a matter of any great the Police System.-Railway Survey.-The Case of importance, and the rea~on he mentioned it s. and J. Broom.-Commissioner for Railwa:rs.-Gowrie was, to show how incorrect the reports were Railway Accident. sometimes; and he was quite aware that other DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER MARRIAGE honorable members' speeches were so re­ BILL. ported as to make them utter absolute non· The SPEAKER reported the following mes­ sense ; and not only that, but also make them sage from the Legislative Council, viz.:- say exactly the reverse of what they did say. " MR. SPEAKER. In the discussion on the Bill introduced by " The Legis"Iative Council having this day the honorable the Attorney-General to passed a Bill intituled '.A. Bill to Legalise the amend the Insolvency Act, he was macle, in .Maf"riage of a Mtm witlt, 6lw Sist!Jr of lti4 Deceaeed the morning paper, to say the Bill was merely "Hansard." [26 OcraBEB.] "Hansard." 1109

to define the ·duties of the judges, but he ~pon the principle of actual first cost of produc­ said exactly the reverse-that the Bill did twn. not define the duties of the judges in any " I have, &c., way. He merely mentioned this, not to make "GRESLEY LUKIN. a complaint, but to show that the reports " The Honorable the Colonial Secretary." were not what they should be ; nor did he The second was a memorandum in reference expect the proprietors of any business paper to the same proposal, and was addressed to to give full reports of the proceedings of the himself, as being the party who had put this House. They would occupy such an amount motion on the paper. It was :- of space that it could not be expected. Nor " Courier and Queenslander Office, did he believe that the public would take the " George street, trouble to read their speeches if they were " Brisbane, 18th October, 1876. published at length. But it had long been "Mmro :­ felt that a better system of reporting what was " I will undertake the production of a daily said in this House-he did not mean a better ' Hansard' on the terms described in the accom­ system of reporting what was said, because panying letter, m• as follows :- . he had no complaint whatever to make with " I will devote 14 columns of Courier space, regard to the reports furnished in" Hansard," more or less as may be required, to the proceedings nor had he heard any complaints lately on ?f every sitting day for a charge of £8 10s. -per that subject-but a better system of making lSSUe. the reports public, and of doing so as soon " 'l'he last 'copy ' to be supplied by the as possible after the debates in the House, 'Hansard' staff not later than two (2) a.m. of was certainly wanted by the country. each day. Members wanted to have what they did say " The services of a competent shorthand and the ari!uments they brought forward put reporter will be placed at the disposal of the before the country as well as before that leader of the ' Hansard ' staff free of charge. " When the debates do not occupy the 14 House. He was aware that it was a very columns of space, the remainder, at the discretion late period of the session to carry a resolu­ of the Government, may be used for the publica­ tion of this sort, but he was quite convinced t~on of such Parliamentary paper as may be con· that unless a commencement were made this s1dered worth publishing. session, the same thing would occur next "GRESLEY LUKIN." session as had occurred this, and they should have no daily "Hansard" at all. The matter He had to-day received a telegram from Mr. would drift over, session after session, and Lukin, from Sandgate, in which he said- nothing would be done. He therefore thought, " lle ' Hansard' will give services without if the resolution met the wishes of the charge two (2) competent Shorthand ·writers in· majority of the House, that the Printing Com­ stead one as stated in· memorandum furnished miltee might make the necessary preliminary you." arrangements, and a trial might be made to Now, he thought that with the assistance of two see how the thing would work. With that additional Shorthand Writers it would be quite view, he had been in communication with the possible for the Printing Committee to make editor of the only morning paper in Bris­ some arrangement so that even at this period bane, and had received from him some of the session a trial daily" Hansard "could be data upon which the House might form their g?t out. ~hey would then have an opportu­ own opinion as to the feasibility of a plan of mty of seemg how the thing would work, and this sort being carried out. The first was a the House could decide whether they would copy of a letter dated the lOth of May, carry it out during the next session, or whether 1876, and addressed to the Colonial Secretary, any better means of publishing "Hansard," and was as follows :- such as he had every reason to believe was dtJsired by the majority, if not the whole of " Cou1·ier and Queenslande.· Office, the House, could be designed in the mean­ "George street, time. In another memorandum which "Brisbane, lOth May, 1876. he had in his hand, Mr. Lukin further "SIR,-Leaming from the debate which took said :-As to the weekly " Hansard" he place in the Legislative Assembly on the afternoon could send his type, set up, over to the of Thursday last, that some immediate action Government Printing Office to be worked off. is likely to be taken in the matter of the publica­ That was for the permanent "Hansard." tion of a daily ' Hansard,' I have the honor to There was a great deal of data given in this submit the following proposal for the considera· proposition, and he (Mr. Palmer) thought it don of the Government:- was a matter worthy of the consideration of " I will take the reports of the ' Hansard ' the House whether they would sanction this staff up to 2 a.m. of each day of publication, and resolution for the Printing Committee to print them as part of the Courier newspaper on make necessary arrangements to carry it into an extra sheet, at the actual cost of work and effect. He had no great wish to see the pub­ material, such cost, together with vouchers, to be lication of a daily " Hansard" commenced certified by any officer whom the Auditor-General at this period of the session, but he thought, may appoint; or I am willi11g to entertain any with the data he had placed before the House, proposal for the performance of the work based and after the expression of opinion which he 1110 " Hansard." [ASS:EMBLY.J "Hansctrd,"

expected would be given on the resolution, self-suppnrting. It would relieve the Govern­ the Printing Committee would be able to ment Printing Office, which at present was arrive at some conclusion, and to arrange for very much overworked, and they would be a trial at all events this session, as to how able to get Parliamentary documents pub­ the r~ports might be put before the public lished somewhat quicker than they could before they lost all interest, which was the now. He merely threw that out as case with the present weekly ""Hansard." He a suggestion. He did not altogether dis­ begged to move- approve of a daily "Hansard," but he ques­ That, in the opinion of this House, it is desir­ tioned whether it would be ad>isable to able that some arrangements should be come to, commence it at that late period of the session, as soon as possible, for the publication of a daily seeing that the second readings of all the "Hansard" in connection with a daily papet• more important Bills of the session had publish~d in Brisbane,. or. otherwise .. That it be an gone through. The honorable member for instructiOn to the Prmtmg Committee to make Port Curtis had not stated whether it would the necessary arrangements for carrying this be advisable to report the whole of the pro­ resolution into effect. ceedings of the House, including proceed­ The PREMIER said he must confe~s that at ings in committee. ·When the Land Bill one time "he was favorably disposed to the was under discussion, and he believed only a publication of a daily "Hansard," but at few clauses had been passed, the honorable present he did not hold the same views. He member for Toowoomba called attention to regretted that the honorable member for Port the fact that it was not being reported, aud Curtis l1ad introduced the matter this session. was cheered by other honorable members; · It was brought forward last session, and it and he (the Premier), believing it was the was understood then that a daily " Hansard" desire of the House that it should be re­ should be published at the beginning of this ported in committee, saw the Speaker, and session, and that Mr. Senior should take instructions were given to the Shorthand charge of the reporting staff. He should like Writers to report it, and he was then re­ to know from the honorable member for buked by the honorable member for Port Warrego why that had not been carried out. Curtis for getting it reported. He had not been able to discover why JYir. P.A.LMER: Reporting part of the pro­ a daily "Hansard" had not been pub­ ceedings. lished. With regard to the suggestion of The PREmER said the Bill was not half the honorable member for Port Curtis, through at the time. He did not think it that one paper should get the reports of the was advisable to saddle the country with great proceedings of the House, he thought they additional expense at that late time of the ses· should be wrong in not calling for tenders for sion, for the production of a daily broadsheet the work. He considered that all papers and "Hansard." He did not think it would ever the trade generally should have an oppor­ be read; he should never read it; he might, tunity of tendering for the publication of perhaps, read the Government advertise­ "Hansard," because if they gave it to one ments, if they were published in connection paper it would be looked upon in the light of with it. a subsidy, and that would be very objection­ Mr. DE S.A.rGE said he did not suppose the able. If they were to call for tenders they honorable the Premier would read the daily should do so at once, because it would give "Hansard," after hearing the debates in that time to the tenderers to get their men to­ House. He thought this motion was par­ gether and make their arrangements. The ticularly opportune, because he believed none present staff, with the assistance of two of them were ashamed of what they said in reporters from the Courier, he thought, that House, and they were prepared to stick would not be sufficient to bring out a daily to what they did say ; but they were utterly " Hansard " of fourteen columns, as sug­ ashamed of what they saw published in the gested by the honorable member for Port public papers as reports of their speeches. Curtis. He did not think it would be possible He knew that the pith of anything he might to get through that amount of work in time say, especially if it were in connection with a for publication at six o'clock next morning. northern question, was systematically omitted He hoped that the cadetff at present under from the reports in the daily paper ; and the tuition of JYir. Senior would be able next sooner than be reported as he usually was, session to assist in this work, and then they he would beg not to be reported at all. should be able, without any very great ex­ Often and often it had been the case that pense to the country, to issue a daily broad­ anything forcible said, especially against the sheet "Hansard." As he said before, he interests of Brisbane, such as in the debate thought the type ought to be set up by the on the Victoria Bridge Bill, was persistently trade, and. he should be inclined also to merge omitted. He did not wish to complain of it, the Gove1'nment Gazette in this daily "Hau­ because it would be giviug a kind of pro­ sard," which would make it more at~ractive, minence to what after all he cared very little because many persons read adverllsements about ; but, nevertheless, the fact existed who did not care for looking at "Hansard ;" that the speeches of certain speakers in that and he would even go further and publish House were systematically suppressed in the public advertisements, and it might become Courier, and he was one of those whose "Hansard." [26 OcTOBER.] "Hansard." 1111 speeches were so suppressed. He thought Office was in quite as good a position as any an honorable member should have au oppor­ newspaper to carry out what was required, tunity of setting himself right with his con­ and he was also told that neither the Courier, stituents, because after all it was his con­ nor any newspaper in the colony, could, in stituents he was working for, and they addition to its own work, issue the number should be afforded a chance of seeing what of copies of" Hansard" that would be required he really did say, and the manner in which to go by the morning train to the different he tried to the best of his ability to ad vacate country papers-that it could not be done their interests. It was more to be regretted without a "web " machine ; and if the Gov­ by certain northern members that they ernment were authorised to purchase one failed, even in their own town, to be accu­ of those machines for the Government Print­ rately reported. The only means he had of ing Office, he was informed that the work letting his constituents know what part he could be done there next session without any took in the debates in the House was through trouble to the staff. He thought that was the Brisbane and theRockhampton Press; and the way in which it should be done. He if he found himself systematically omitted in did not see that they should place them­ both, he thought it was particularly unfair, se! ves in the hands of any newspaper to be because he had no means of forwarding to reported properly or not. The honorable each of his constituents a copy of gentleman had read 1;10me communications " Hansard" as it appeared in that House. He from Mr. Lukin in reference to this matter, thought the system of tendering should be in which he stated that he would be prepared adopted in this matter, as the honorable the to publish fourteen columns, more or less, of Premier had suggested. He did not the debates each day in the Courier; but he see why the Cou1•ier should get the whole (the Colonial Secretary) understood that the benefit of this arrangement. There was no average of the debates this session had doubt a daily "Hansard " would add greatly amounted to sixteen columns for the Assembly to its circulation. The publication of accu­ alone, without the debates in the Council. rate reports was of great importance to those He, therefore, wished to know whether the who had constituencies far off, communica­ paper was to be allowed any discretion as to tion with whom could only be done in the leaving out part of the debates. It was a. way now suggested. He thought the whole power he would be very chary in giving, of the northern members should speak out as because, if the paper were restricted in much as possible for the correct publication of the publication to a certain amount, and their speeches in that House. they had a license to leave out some The CoLONIAL SECRETARY thought this speeches and to insert:others, it would not be matter might be very well brought forward fair to honorable members. If the Courier so as to apply to the next session, but he were prepared to undertake to send copies scarcely saw the force of it at this very late of " Hamard" to the country papers in the period of the session. Any newspaper getting way he had pointed out, then he thought the trial now would fairly expect to have the the offer would be worthy of consideration, publication of the reports next session, and either this session or next session, but on he thought that was scarcely a fair position that point the House ought to be thoroughly to place one paper in-to place it above all informed before they went any further. But, others. He should like to know from the as he had previously stated, he was informed honorable gentleman who introduced the that the Courier was not in a position to supply motion, how far he intended to go with it­ the country papers without some additional whether the propriet0r of the newspaper machinery, and the Government were quite who would get this work to perform would as able to procure that machinery as they supply all the country papers with whatever were, and would be quite as able to supply number of copies they required each morning the country papers. He was quite at at cost price P If that was not to be the case, one with the honorable gentleman who it wuuld place one newspaper in a position he introduced the motion as to the neces­ did not think any newspaper should be placed sity for a daily " Hansard " He thought, in. It would give the proprietors the power if tlwy had a "Hansard" at all, they to retail this " Hansard" at any price they might as well have it daily as weekly; and if chose. If the newspaper undertaking the the House expressed an opinion that a " web" work would supply country papers at cost machine should be procured by the Govern­ price, then there might be some fairness in ment, next session the Government Printing the transaction ; but he could quite under­ Office would be able to supply copies of stand the Couriel', or any paper, being pre­ "Hansard" at cost price to newspapers and pared to undertake the whole of the work all who might apply for them. He thought for nothing if it were allowed to have a it might be very well done in that way, and monopoly 'of "Hansard." That w~s not done to the best advantage. He was told a position the House should be placed m, and that the debate on the 18th of July, as pub­ in the event of honorable members complain­ lished in" Hansard," would make six pages ing of being Ladly reported, they would not of the Courier, so that it would be impossible have the redress they had now. He had to limit each day's report to fourteen columns, been informed that the Government Printing or if they did, the report of one day's prooeed· 1112 "Hansard." [ASSEMBLY.] ings would extend over a considerable time,. He was very willing that everything said in and instead of having a daily " Hansard,' • the House should be reported, in order that they would be a week or ten da_ys behindhand a member might be taxed with changing his in getting the reports. He m1ght also state views, or quoted as an authority; but for any that of Mr. Hemmant's Financial Speech in. other purpose, he did not see much use in the 1875, there were 12,350 copies printed, and of' reports. The country was anxiously waiting Mr. Dick son's 18,850 ; and he was quite sure,. -not to hear what they said, they did not if the House would authorise the Printing care about that-but to see what they did ; Committee to see to it next session, that the but they waited month after month, and Government Printer would be able to do the literally nothing was done, and that was what work much better than it would be done if' the country was disappointed in. put in the hands of any one newspaper. :Thfr. SrEVENSON said he should certainly Mr. PALMER said, as a matter of personal support the motion of the honorable member explanation, he might state that the speech for Port Curtis, and he thought the reasons of the Honorable the Colonial Secretary, and given by the honorable member for Nor­ that of the Premier also, would lead people man by were very good ones indeed. There to believe that he had recommended that the was no doubt that the speeches of some Courier should get the printing of the daily members on that side of the House, and '' Hansard," but he had said nothing of the especially northern members, were sys­ sort. He had simply put before the House the tematically misreported in the daily papers. proposal made by the editor of the Courier, Sometimes they were not reported at all, and he carefully abstained from making any and when they were, garbled report"s were recommendation. The resolution spoke for published. As he pointed out the other day, itself· it was left to the Printing Committee what he said on one question was put clown to make arrangements wi1h a daily paper or to a different question altogether ; and in otherwise. He did not think it necessary to another case he had not be.-n reported at all in allude .to the Government Printing Office in the Brisbane papers, and the first he saw connection with the matter, because the about his speech was a telegram in the even­ House had had that before them so often ; ing paper stating that there was great indig­ but this was fresh matter, which had arisen nation in Rockhampton about what he had out of the offer of the Courier. The ques­ said in the House. He thought, especially in tion was left entirely in the hands of the these times of wire-pulling, a daily "Han­ Printing Committee; and if he ~ere asked sard" was very necessary, so that their con­ his private opinion, he should ~ay rt ought to stituent~ might be informed of what they be printed in the Government Printing Office. really d1d say. There was no doubt a great Mr. BAILEY said he was hardly sure whether deal of wire-pulling was done; and if there the gain would be worth the candle. It was anythin!! that was supposed to injure would cost the country, he supposed, from northern members with their constituents, it £70 to £100 a-week at the very least during was telegraphed at once, and he thought a the session, and the sessions were becoming daily "Hansard" would prevent that to some longer year by year. This session was longer extent. than the last ; it would extend over about six Mr. BuzACOTT said, as he had taken an months ; and the next might last nine months active part in the previous session in the at the rate they were going on ; and he did attempt to establish a daily "Hansard," not think they were justified in putting the perhaps he would not be out of place -in country to increased expenditure for the addressing himself to this question. There mere sake of seeing their valuable utterances was only one obstacle last session in the way in print. He did not think their constituents of establishing a daily "Hansard," and that placed so much value on what they said as on was simply that honorable members would what they did, and he was very sorry to say not allow their speeches to appear in a con­ that they did very little, and said very much densed form. It was perfectly absurd for too much. If there was any part of the honorable members to hope or to expect that proceedings he should like to see more tho­ the reporters could present a full report of roughly reported, it was proceedings in the proceedings of the House extending over committee, for he believed if they were fully a period of eight or ten hours a-day. The reported, they should not have to sit there till reports in "Hansard," he held, were ab­ three o'clock or eight o'clock in the morning. surdly diffuse, and if they were condensed He believed if honorable members knew by at least one-half, they would be improved they would be fully reported they would in every respect; and if honorable members abstain from the harassing plan that has been had the experience he had had in connection adopted at times in that House, and they with reporting, they would see that if the should not have to listen to such utter non­ speeches uttered in the House were presented sense as they heard sometimes. He believed in an abbreviated and succinct form, there if reports of what occurred in committee would be more chance of their proceedings were issued only occasionally, they should be being handed down to posterity, if they relieved from their duties very much sooner desired any such distinction. As it was, than they usually were. He certainly dis­ " Hansard" was becoming so voluminous approved of subsidising any one newspaper. that after it was about twelve months old "Hansard." [26 OcrOBEB.] "Hansard." 1113 nobody ever thought of referring to it except the slightest use for the House to go into the occasionally for the purpose of confuting establishment of a daily "Hansard" unless some honorable member who was supposed they were prepared to face the expense, which to have changed his views; and if honorable would be considerable unless it was carried members would only consent to having the out in connection i'i·ith one of the daily news­ reports fairly condensed and presmted in the papers. As he understood the offer of style in which the S.1Jdney 11f.o1"ning Herald the Courie1', after the iFsue of the daily reports and the reports in the English news­ " Hausard," the type would be handed papers were published, there could be no doubt over to the Government Printer for the as to thfl practicability of issuing a daily pennanent "Hansard," and that would "Hansard," which, be had no hesitation in involve comparatively small expense; but he saying, would be extremely serviceable to the was afraid the sending of printing material Hou~e and the whole community. He could from one office to the other would lead to not say that the reports in the morning paper great confusion, and that the scheme could were intentionally unfair to any borwrable hardly be carried out, although it would be member, but he n ust certainly say, that the most economical way of doing it. In some honorable members were not reported England, "Hansard" was published by pri­ at all, and some were reported to have said vate enterprise, and was simply compiled from exactly the opposite of what they really the reports published in the London Times uttered. That was a state of affairs insepa­ and other leading London jomnals. If the rable from an inadequate reporting staff; House decided to adopt the course, he, as a and the only way he could see out of the member of the Printing Committee, would difficuly was to have the " Hansard" staff be happy to take the matter into consideration, increased, and for members to consent to and see if anything could be done to carry out their speeches being condensed, and issued the wishes of honorable members. from the Government Printing Office in the !VIr. Gnoo1r thought honorable members, form recommended by the Select Committee when speaking of the daily journals in Bris­ appointed by the House to inquire into the bane, and of their speeches not being reported matter some time ago. He was afraid if this as they would wish them, ought to take into resolut.ion were carried out, it would not consideration the surrounding circumstances give satisfaction to anybody. At the same of the case. The city of Sydney alone pos­ time, he knew that there was an arrangement sesses a largl'r population than the whole made with the Sout!t Australian RegisteJ" for of Queensland, and consequently the the printing of daily parliamentary reports, in Syrlney jlfornin,q Herald, having a very a more complete form than the resources of large circulation, could very well afford that colony would otherwise permit. That to go to the expense of a large report­ paper received a sub>idy from the Go~~ern­ ing staff, and publish reports of parlia­ ment, and gave, he believed, very fair and mentary proceedings verbatim et liteyatim. full reports of the proceedings ; but he hardly But in a colony like Queensland, with thought an arrangement of that sort would 177,000 inhabitants, and with a large numb·er give satisfaction here. So far as he was in­ of provincial journals, it stood to reason dividually concerned, he should be very happy that the circulation of the metropolitan jour­ to see such an arrangement carried out ; and nals was of a limited character, and they if honorable members thought it necessarv, really could not afford commercially-because perhaps an experiment could be made this although a newspaper was an organ of public session, although he had not much faith in opinion in one respect, it was a commercial it himself. Something had been said about speculation in another-and they could not the smallness of the circulation of the daily afford to keep large reporting staffs. They papers published in the metropolis, but by­ were obliged, in consequence, to condense the and ·bye when their circulation increased, they speeches of honorabb members, and he sup­ became stronger, and would be able to present posed that was leJt to the good taste or the more full and more accurate reports, as was good sense of the reporter himself. He saw done by the S.1Jdney Morning Herald and no harm in pas8ing the resolution. It did the .Arqus, and other papers published in not commit the House to anything, but merely Melbourne. No doubt it was correct that requested the Printing Committee to take there was no machinery at present in Bris­ action and see if anything could be clone to bane that would be equal to supplying the secure a better record of parliamentary pro­ provincial papers with. "Ha~sard ·: in ~uffi­ ceedings than the newspapers were able to cient numbers fol' c1rculatwn With those furnish at present. The honorable gentleman papers, and if the experiment were tried at had referred to the very liberal offer of the the Government Printing Office, and news­ Courier, but if that offer were accepted, what papers had to be supplied from that office, would be the effect of it P The publication they would require to provide a printing of the speeches of honorable members would machine which would cost £6,{)00 or £7,000, be confined to the Uourier, and then would and it would also involve further expense in come the question, whether that journal connection with the reporting staff. He be­ would have the copyright-whether other lieved it would cost about one-half more than journals would be allowed to copy those the present annual expense, and it was not reports P He believed if an arrangement 1114 "Hansard." [ASS:EMBLY.] could be made for the remainder of the a daily report of the Parliamentary debates, session, at all events, with one of the daily and a similar arrangement had at one time been journals to publish " Hansard" daily, and made with the Melbourne .Argus, with this before next session the Government Printe'l:" addition, that it furnished a weekly report was supplied with a machine such as had been for the members, as well as for circulation. suggested, and if the Printing Committee could He should vote for the motion of the hon­ then made arrangements next session for the orable member for Port Curtis, and hoped publication of a daily •· Hansard," it would the Printing Committee would see whether be the most satisfactory course ; but it would something could not be done during the pre­ be utterly impossible, with the enormous sent session; and also that they would take amount of work that had to be done in the evidence, so that some additional light might Printing Office at the present time. The ex­ be thrown on the matter, in order that the pense of that office this year would exceed whole question might be brought forward the expense incurred in any previous year before the close of the present session. since Separation. The ordinary " Votes and Mr. MoRGAN said he fully agreed with Proceedings" were becoming very voluminous. every word that had been said by the and if honorable members would only look at honorable member for vVide Bay, as he the papers that had been printed, they would thought the various constituencies were at once see what the cost was likely to be. far more interested in what their re­ Some years ago the expenses of the Printing presentatives did than in what they Office were considered so large that some said. He did not think the motion of the honorable members moved for an inquiry honorable member for Port Curtis went far into the working of that office, and they enough, as he considered that, if the motion found that everything in the way of expense was carried, there should be an instruction waR cut down in the nicest possible way, and given to the Printing Committee as to how far they were surprised to find so much work speeches were to be condensed, and, also, done for tke comparatively small amount how far, if at all, the proceedings in com­ voted ; and he thought if they looked at the mittee were to be reported. If he recollected enormous amount of work done, it would be rightly, on one occasion when a Financial acknowledged that the Government Printing Statement was published by the Government Office was managed about as economically Printing Office and issued as a supplement to and as satisfactorily as any Government the Courier, it extended over sixteen columns Printing Office in the Australian Colonies. of folio demy ; and if to that had been The work was exceeding all proportions this added the remarks of honorable members in session. The " Votes and Proceedings" would reference to the Statement, at least four make three or four bulky volumes, and there Courier newspapers would have been filled. had been only one report from a Select Com­ Again, supposing the House sat up all night, mittee laid before the House yet. After all, a what newspaper would hold the penny daily "Hansard" was only a matter of expense; readings and speeches made against time if and he quite sympathised with the honorable they were reported. And if they were member for N ormanby that he had no oppor­ reported t•erbatim, what would be thought tunity of letting his constituents know wh~t of the honorable members who made he said in that House ; because he thought 1t them? Reporting at all on " Hansard" was only right, when a member voted on a was a matter which required a certain question, that his constituents should know amount of skilful condensing power, and he the reason wh~ he gave that voce. He was would ask who was to exercise that discre­ not inclined to agree with the honorable tion P He presumed that their chief reporter member for Wide Bay, that the people out­ was a genUeman of first-(llaRs judgment, and side did not care what honorable members it might be in trusted to him; but the difficulty said in that House. He believed they took would be in drawing a line, as some honor· a great deal of interest in what honorable able members might think t,hat they were suf­ members said, and if they did not, he could ficiently reported, others that they were not, not see how they could be prepared to go whilst others again might not wish to be too to the ballot-box at a general election. closely reported. He thought that the ad­ He could make all those little allowances for vanced stage of the session was such that it a daily journal, as it would be impossible for would be impossible to meet the views of the them to devote all the space required for honorable member for Port Curtis, but still extensive parliamentary reports without in­ sufficient evidence might be taken to enable curring very great expense, and it must be the Printing Committee to make arrangements remembered, as he had already stated, that a for issuing a daily sheet from the commence­ newspaper was a commercial speculation, ment of next session. and that the proprietors W!Jre not supposed Mr.. J. Scorr said that, as a rule, first trials to put their hands in their pockets to publish of anything did not give general satisfac­ debates merely to please hon,Jrable members tion, but that was the very reason why an of that House. In South Australia, where attempt should be made, and therefore he there was a population analogous to that of thought the sooner it was done the better. Queensland, arrangements were made with A daily "Hansard" had been talked about th\l South Australian Register to publish all through the present session, and nothing "Hanscwd." [26 OcTOBER.] "Hansard." 1115 had been done ; and he believed that unless a ~ot possib,Jy contain. mo~e than fifteen pages of trial was made before the close of it, nothin(J" l!ansard, thus malung 1t appear to your com­ would be done next session. Re should" nuttee, further, that the publication of 'Han­ therefore, vote for the motion of the honor: sard,' primarily, in this specimen broad-sheet form able member for Port Cnrtis. In regard to would materially reduce the extent and value of the remarks of the honorable member for the permanent record, anclmight greatly reduce Wide Bay, that speeches of members were the extent of the reports which reach the publio not considered of any value at all outside of through the daily press." that House, he would submit that the ex­ If in any way their staff could assist the tensive publication of reports of debates in newspaper staff in bringing out more full leading local newspapers all over the world :eports than they at present did, he thought showed that they were looked upon as some­ It would be desirable. As to the amount thing very valuable. A.ll leading news­ which had been named as that for which one papers gave voluminous reports, and if they newspaper proprietor was prepared to con­ were not demanded by the outside public tract for bringing out daily a report equal to they would not be given. fourteen columns of his paper, namely, £810s., The Jl.frNISTER FOR LANDS thought every he must say that he thought it very honorable member would admit that the actual moderate, and that if the House attempted work done. by their present staff was ver_y ~nything of the kind they could not do well done mdeed; and when they took into It !or less. If their present staff could consideration the length of the" reports in as~Ist the newspsper staff, their own staff "Hansard," and also, during the busiest bemg of course held responsible for all the part of the session, the very large amount of W?rk. he thought t~e experiment might be Select Committee work, he was sure it must trted dnrmgtheremamderofthe session. That be admitted that the staff did their work would not result in any monopoly being given well. He did not think the present staff to the Cou1·ier newspaper; and he might say could bear the strain of the additional work that he by no means agreed with the state­ that would be imposed by the issue of a ment made, that that paper sh•Juld have a daily "Hansard," and, therefore, if it was monopoly after the present session at all decided that that additional work was to be events. There was really no reason why done, it could not be looked for or expected they should not attempt a daily " Hansard," rrom the present s~aff, unless it was greatly and as the limit of their expenditure would illCJ'eased. For htmself personally, he did be about £30 a-week, the House might con­ not place much value on the lengthy reports sent to give the matter a trial. He must they had in " Hansard," and he thought that correct a statement which had been made by well-condensed reports would be much better ; his honorable friend at the head of the but there was no doubt that that publication Uovernment, that the services of the cadet had been admirably conducted from its com­ corps could be made available for next session. mencement, and he thought the House would Although the members of the cadet class not like to see it stopped. Still, he was of !!light no doubt by that time be very useful opinion that the speeches might be reported m many ways, he did not think their services less fully than they at present were, and as Shorthand Writers could be made available that before the House proposed to increase for. t:vo Y,ears _at least. He thought the the work of their present staff, they might f'rmtmg Committee had better be courageous very we!~ diminish the work imposed upon it, m the matter, and if thev found on consul­ by agreemg to a system of condensing the tation with Mr. Senior, that he could with­ speeches. With regard to the motion of out putting too much pressure on' their the honorable member for Port Curtis, present staff, assist in making the newspaper he was inclined to think with the honor­ r:ports fuller than they now were, he con­ able member for Springsure that it would sidered that he should be authorised to do be well to try the experiment of a daily so. "Hansard" during the present session on a Jl.fr. BEATTIE said that he did not see any small scale. He found, judging from what nece~sity for having a report of the debates the Printing Committee did last session, that published early in the morning, and he be­ they were not likely to recommend a trial on lieved it would be equally acceptable to a small scale, for in their report they stated :- 11onorable members if it was published in the afternoon. If that arrangement was adopted "Your committee have had under consideration t~1eir own staff would have a great deal mor~ the resolutions passed by your honoraLle House time for transcribing their notes-that was on the 20th ultimo, and deem it their duty to intimate that, upon endeavoring to give effe0t supposing "Hansard" was published in th~ thereto, they became impressed with the fact Government Printing Office. If it was in­ that the suggestions imposed in the report of tended to carry out the suggestion of the the Select Committee of last yenr are incom· honorable member for Port Curtis and subii­ patible with the specimen broacl-sheet issued by dise a newspaper, then he submitted that the the G-overnment Printer this session. proprietary of every newspaper should have "It has been shown to vour committee that an opportunity of tendering for the work. debates may be found exten~~ng over forty pages !Yir. W A~S~ thought th~ only advantage of' Hansard,' whereas the sa1d brond-sheet could gmned by givtng the Committee authority to 1116 "Ha11sard." [ASSEMBLY.] "HansaJ'fl." make arrangements with a daily newspaper, He really believed that if the present resolu­ would be that it might possibly lead to two tion was carried, it would be the means of morning newspapers in Brisbane instead of striking a death-blow to that class. At any one. Honorable members who had spoken rate, the Premier had forgotten the docu­ on the present question appeareC!. to. h~v-e ment to which he had affixed his own name, quite forgotten all the labor the Prmtm~ and in which the following paragraphs ap­ Committee had had in order to try and peared:- satisfy the House on what was such a knotty " 6. Nominations of pupils shall be by the subject; they really app~ared to think that Premier and Speaker, acting jointly ; and pre­ at the fag end of a sessiOn an arrangement ference shall be given to candidates who haYe ex­ could be made between the Cour£er newspaper celled in the examination instituted according to and their own staff by which the whole work Rule 4; pref8rence will also for a time be given cf a daily " Hansard " could be carried on at to those applicants who join the class with the once. But he pronounced it as an impossibility express object of becoming parliamentary re· that the two staffs could work in unison­ porters. they were so utterly different, both as re­ "10. Whenever the Principal Shorthand 'Writer garded the quality and the nature of the shall report that there are pupils in the class who have attained a degree of competency sufficient work they had to perform, that he was cer­ to enable them to assist the staff in transcribing tain they could not work together. But their notes, the Speaker may, should he see fit, there was another matter to be considered select any two or more of their number for ap­ which was of very great importance. pointment as assistants at a salary not exceeding The arrangement now proposed would pre­ for the first year £100, and increasing thereafter vent the carrying out of that scheme upon a certificate of further proficiency from the which he believed would eventually be most Principal Shorthand \V riter ; such increase to be valuable to that House-namely, that of approved by the Speaker, and subject to the initiating a future parliamentary staff. Not sanction of the Legislatiye Assembly." only would they be marring that which he That document was signed by the then contended was a most admirable scheme, but Speaker and by Gaorge Thorn, Premier, in they would be breaking faith with the gentle­ accordance with the duties delegated by the man whom they had brought from England, House during the previous session to those whose principal object had been the. forma­ gentlemen. He trusted that his honorable tion of a cadet class, and also With the friend the member for Port Curtis, having parents of those children and young men pointed to the necessity-for there was a who now formed that class. One of the very great necessity-of having better news­ principal duties of the Chief ShorLhand paper reports of the debates, would be satis­ Writer had been laid down as that of educat­ fied. He did not hesitate to say that the ing young men in stenography, .so that t?~Y newspaper reports at present were not credit­ should be fit, at some future time, to JOm able. 'fhe speeches of some members were the shorthand staff, and also render them­ systematically left out, and others were selves more eligible for employment in put in-the more silence there was concerning the Government service generally. He did which, the better it would be.. Frequently not hesitate to say, that if they made any the most insulting remarks were made of alterations in that scheme before it had a fair honorable members in the Press. Re be­ trial, they would ruin that class, .they wm~ld lieved there was one member who, under the break faith with the teacher of It and with nom du plume of "A Stranger in the Gal­ the parents of the pupils, and ~ould ~1ar one lery," indulged in the most undeserved and of the best schemes m connectwn With par­ insulting criticisms on honorable members. liamentarv reporting in the future that they There was no doubt that there was a great could possibly have. The honorable Premier, demand for better and fuller reporting of some few weeks ago, had made the most members' speeches in the public Press, and, extraordinary remarks about him-that he on the other hand, he had no doubt that if VI as opposed to bringing out a daily "Han­ honorable members knew that their speeches sard." Now, that honorable member must would be correctly reported, they would be know that there had been no intention to more careful in speaking. At present they brinO' out a daily "Hansard " at the com­ were not fairly reported by the Press, but men~ement of the session. The honorable were frequently ridiculed at the very time, member knew very well that one of the first perhaps, when they should receive praise for instructions given to Mr. JYiacalister, when what they did. Again, they were often re­ he was a~ked to engage a Shorthand 'VVriter, ported when they did not wish to be and was, that the gentleman engaged should when it was not supposed that they would be ; but when they gave good advice or informa­ " be given to .understand th~t his servic~s n:ust tion, no notice whatever was taken of them. be specially directed to working the staff, ~n tzme, up to the issue of a daily ' Hansard ' from the He did not think the way to mend that state Government Printing Office, and must see then of things would be to subsidise the Press, for how advantageous it is considered that the in· no matter what was done, some favoritism or struction of the cadet class should be regarded by party feeling would animate the Press. And him as an important and necessary duty to he would say again that he did not see how perform." it was possible that they could make such Toowoomba Grammar School. [26 OCTOBER.] Toowoumba Grammar School. 1117 dissimilar classes work together as their own subscribed a large sum for a School of Arts, staff and the ordinary staff attached to the besides paying their annual contribution of Brisbane Press. £400 to the Hospital. Altogether, a large The question was put, and the House sum had been collected in Toowoomba and divided, with the following result:- the district, and the trustees felt they could AYES, 19. not reasonably ask for more. They had Messrs. Palmer, Griffith, Douglas, Ste>enson, accepted the services of Mr. Mackintosh, Buzacott, Ivory, Kingsford, W. Scott, Amhnrst, of Camclen College, as head master, and they Fraser, O'Sullivan, Groom, Graham, ,J. Scott, were exceedingly anxious that the school Morgan, Tyrol, Beattie, Bailey, and McLean. should be furnished and ready to open in January next, after the Christmas vacation; NoEs, 6. it was with that view that they wished to M.es>rs. G. Thorn, Walsh, Dickson, Stewart, get the money mentioned in the resolution. Morehead, and Fryar. The trustees, he might state, would rather get the money in that way than borrow it TOOWOOMBA GRAMMAR SCHOOL. from private individuals, as they had no Mr. GROOM said, on risin~ to move the power to mortgage their land: the Act by motion standing in his name m reference to which they could formerly have clone so being the above subject, that he wished with the repealed. The Ipswich Grammar School had permission of the House to amend it by had a mortgage on it of £2,000, which he striking out the words "as a grant." He was glad to hear was being reclucecl, as he had placed the motion on the business paper thought it was an exceedingly bad practice for the consideration of the House that after­ to have mortgages on their schools. He did noon, at the request of the trustees of the not think he was asking anything unreason­ Toowoomb:;t Grammar School; and the reason able on behalf of the trustees, for he found they had asked him to move in the matter, by a return laid Ulpon the table of the and to solicit a vote from the Assembly, was House, last year, to the order of the honor­ as follows :-The contract for building the able member for the Mitchell, that the school was taken at £6,900, and the amount following sums had been applied to the of the subsidy obtained from the Govern­ erection of the buildings of the Ipswich ment in accordance with the Grammar Grammar School. For the year 1862, £500 ; Schools Act was £4,000, or double the 1863, £1,500; for 1864, £2,000; for 1865, amount which had been obtained by pri­ £2,001), an cl for 1866, £1,364 1s. lld., making vate subscription. The nature of the site a total, from 1862 to 1866, of £7,364 Is. lld. selected for the building had added materially '!.'he amount of private contributions to the to the cost ofbuilcling, as owing to the land Ipswich Grammar School, so far as he had about Toowoomba having been purchased, or been informed, did not reach £2,000; at any to the sites available being of so small a rate that was the maximum, whi1st the character as to be unsuitable, the trustees had trustees of that school had received £7,364 no option than to accept a portion of the 1s. l1d. from the Government. That return police paddock on the range as a site for the was supplied by the Department of Educa· school. The · trusLees completed the school tion on the 27th July, 1875, and ordered to at the contract price, and an additional be printed, so that what he had quoted were amount collected allowed them to pay the official records. Then, there were the sums whole sum, including extras, of £7,300, which which had been paid to be applied to the was the cost of the school as it now sto0cl on erection of the Brisbane Grammar School­ the ground ; that did not include the land May 22, 1868, £1,000; July 11, 1868, £1,000; which was the gift of the Crown. The December 30, 1868, £4,61 16s.; April7, 1869, trustees now asked for a loan of £2,000 to £650; May 2, 1871, £888 4s., making a total enable them to partly furnish the school, and of £4,000-in addition to that was a sum of to put up some out-buildings which would be £5,021 18s. 3d., granted towards the salaries required for the boarders. Honorable mem· of masters and teachers. The trustees of the bers who had seen the building would have Toowoomba Grammar School asked now for remarked that excellent dormitories ha cl been £2,000 as a loan, and not as a grant, and he provided ; and he believed it was the first believed they were also entitled to £800 more, Grammar School where they had been pro­ as the proportion of Government subsidy vided, and where the boarders would be, both on a second sum of £400 collected. He out of school hours and in school hours, under believed that under the present head-master, the immediate superyision of the head master. and the other teachers who had been engaged, It being the intention of the trustees to have the school would be a great success, bnt it was boarders, rendered necessary the out­ very necessary that the trustees should have buildings to which he had referred. He the assistance they asked for given to them might mention that the trustees felt it now, so that they might, as he had already would be unfair for them to expect further said, be in a position to erect the out-build­ local contributions at present, as they tacl ings which would be required for boarders ; already obtained £2,000, and in addition to and as it was the first attempt to have that, another £400 to complete the contract, boarders at a Grammar School on the same whilst the people of Toowoomba had lately system, he had no doubt it would be watched 1118 Toowoumba Grammw· Sclwol. [ASSEMBLY.] Too1wumba Grammar School. with interest. Those were the facts as far as mar School borrowed money long ago, and he had been instructed by the trustees, and had never paid it off yet, at least the he would again remind the House that it VI as whole of the debt; they did not ask the not a gift that was asked for, but only a loan, Government to lend them the money, and to be repaid to the Government as soon as when they borrowed it, they gave securities. possible. He begged to move- The trustees of the Brisbane Grammar That this House will, at its next sitting, School found they had not enough money to resolve itself into a Committee of the vVhole, to carry on with, and they borrowed money consider of an Address to 'l'he Governor, praying too, and when they found they could not that His Excellency will be pleased to cause to be raise sufficient subscriptions during the year, placed upon the Additional Supplementary they guaranteed the money, as was generally Estimates of 1876, the oum of two thousand done ; the amount of the guarantee being (£2,000) pounds, as a grant by way of loan, to the one-third of what was required. If the Too­ Toowoomba Grammar School. woomba Grammar School wanted £2,000, they The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the wem bound to make a strong case to justify the motion was rather a novel one, as he thought Government in lending them the money. No it was the first instance in the colony that buildings could be put up until the plans bad the trustees of a Grammar School had not been submi~ ted to the Government and autho­ been able to manage its own affairs without rised by them. The Government kept that making an application which would involve a amount of control over the expenditure, but burden on the State, namely, an application at _present they knew pothing of the case in for a loan. He considered that the provisions pomt except that the trustees would like to of the Grammar tlchools Act were rathel.' have a sum of £2,000 more to spend, and liberal--- that they had not enough money in hand to Mr. PALMEU: Very liberal, I should say. furnish the buildings. They must do as The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would accept the trustees in other parts of the colony had done suggestion of the honorable member, and say -as the trustees of the Brisbane Grammar very liberal, liS the Government gave £2 for School did three years ago-they got the every £1 rai_se~ by private subscription money from the bank and incurred thelia­ towards the bmldmg of a school, and after that bility; but they were not afi·aid of that, gave a perpetual endowment of £1,000, a-year. because they knew the public would raise He thought those terms were very liberal £200 or £300, and that from the Govern­ indeed, and that a very strong case, one much ment they should get two pounds for every stronger than the present, should be made out one they raised. That was the better way, and to justify the State giving more than that. he was the more surprised at the application, He could not understand what the trustees had knowing the high character of the trustees been doing, because they must have known of the Toowoomba Grammar School. If the what they would receive, and should have application were granted it would be a very regulated thei_r ~xpenditure acco~dingly, dangerous precedent-and it was nonsense instead of entermg m to a contract whwh they to say it would not be a precedent. 'Jhe must have known they could not carry out. result would be, that instead of trustees of They had collected £2,400, and they knew schools being bound to make their expendi­ that with the Government subs1dy on ture accord with their receipts, they would that, they would have a sum of. £7,200; i.n spend what they liked in hopes of getting addition to that they had, as a Site for the1r loans from Government. In Brisbane, the school, a magnificent slope on the Main trustees thought they would very much Range. Supposing the trustees should find like to erect another good building some­ that the loan of £2,000 which they now where else, but they could not see that they asked for was not enough, they might ask to would he justified in doing so. The Ipswich make it £4,000, and so on. ·when he last Grammar School would certainly be entitled saw the Toowoomba Grammar School, it was to ask for a loan if one were granted to the pointed out to hin~ that the kitc~ens and out­ Toowoomba School. He confessed he could buildings were finished-for whwh the hon­ not understand the return quoted by the orable member now said a loan was wantgd­ honorable member for Toowoomba respecting and, in fact, that everything had been done, the Ipswich Grammar School. He was except furnishing the school and embellishing satisfied it was wrong. the grounds; and from information he then Mr. GROOM: If you look at the Estimates, received if they had sent in their vouchers you will find it is quite correct. to the Government, the amount to which The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : I am satisfied they were entitled would have . b~en it is wrong somewhere. sufficient to pay for all, except furmshmg Mr. GRooM: No; it is correct. the school and ornamenting the grounds. The ATTORNEY·GENEUAL said he had That, however, was no reason why the House looked carefully at the return, and was con­ would be justified in granting a loan to the vinced there was an error somewhere. For trustees. He believed there had never been the reasons he had given, he could not agree a Grammar School in the colony that had with this vote on the part of the Government, been able to carry on without borrowing and he hoped the trustees would take the money from somewhere. The Ipswich Gram- step he had suggested, as the trustees of Toowoomba Grammar Sclwol. [26 Oc'rOilE.R.] Railway fi•om Wiwwiclc, JJJtc. 1119 other Grammar Schools had done, and they Grammar School to incur expenses they knew would find no difficulty in opening the they could not meet, and erect larger build­ school. They had very fine buildings, and ings than they were able to pay for; it would ought to have a large school, and with the be more advisable if they only wanted £2,000 Government endowment of £1,000, which more-and a subscription of £700 would began the moment they opened, it was not enable them to get it-that they should a serious liability to undertake It was not set to work and get the subscriptions. That usual for schools to start with the most would be better than coming to the Parlia­ complete appliances, and in some of the ment for a loan; and he did not >ee, after largest schools, it had been found necessary the returns read by the honorable member to carry on the institution with such means for Toowoomba as to the Ipswich Grammar aR they had, and if they could not follow that School, how they could come to the House example, they would find it necessary to begin and ask for anything. They had much according to their means. He hoped the better let sleeping dogs lie. If the applica­ House would not accede to the request, tion were granted, it might induce the because it would be establishing a dangerous trustees of the Brisbane Grammar School to precedent. come for a loan, and he, for one, should not Mr. GRoOM said the returns he had quoted object to give it to them, for a building more were quite correct, and they would show how disgracefully unfit for the purpose he had Mr. Macalister used to manipulate the matter, never seen. He thought the honorable where there was the only one Grammar School member for Toowoomba ought to withdraw in existence. £3,000 were voted to Grammar his motion, as the feeling of the Government Schools, and the returns showed that Ipswich was evidently against it; besides, it could received £2,000. The returns showed that the not be denied it would be a bad precedent, sums paid to the Ipswich ~ramm_ar School we~e for trustees ought not to go beyond what ·£500, in 1862; £1,500, m 1863; £2,000, m they could afford to spend. 1864; £2,000, in 1865; and £1,364 1s. lld., The House divided with the following in 1866. He was sorry that the Attorney­ result:- General, as the head of the Education Depart­ AYES, 14. ment, had thought proper to oppose this vote, Messrs. Kingsford, vV. Scott, Edmondstone, because it was impossible for the trustees to JTraser, Ivory, Groom, De Satge, J. Scott, Lord, go into the market and borrow on their own ::Yicilwraith, Amhurst, O'Sullivan, Tyrel, and personal security. They would, one and all, Beattie. object to anything of that kind. No doubt NoEs, 7. the plans of the buildings, which the trustees Messrs. Griffith, G. Thorn, Stewart, Douglae, intended to erect must, under the Grammar Dickson, Morgan, and Fryar, Schools Act, be submitted to the Government, and if the Government desired the trustees CASE OF HENRY J.A.COBS. to give a detailed account of their expenditure, it would readily be supplied. It was much Mr. PALMER moved, pursuant to amended more honorable for the trustees to come for­ notice- ward in this open way than to ask for grants That the Report from the Select Committee on by sidewinds. He was willing to leave the the case of Henry Jacobs, brought up on the question in the hands of the House, content 19th instant, be now adopted. to remember that he had done his duty in He had very little to say upon this report, bringing it forward. except that he was very glad a committee had Mr. PALMER said he was not likely to rise inquired into the subject It had been hang· to apologise for any of Mr. Macalister's ing over them for several years, and his first doings, but hC' did not think that any Pre­ impression was that Jacobs had been treated mier could give £3,000 a-year to a Grammar badly, and had a good case. The evidence School· no Premier could do that unless it taken before the Select Committee would dis· had be~n passed by the Cabinet, and the pel that delusion, however, and show, as far trustees of the Brisbane Grammar School as could be shown, that at the time the must know from their own experience that occurrences inquired into took place, the they never could get money that was voted. petitioner had no claim. Mr. GnooM: I did not say £3,000 a-year. Question put and passed. I said that £3,000 was voted, and £2,000 given to the Ipswich Grammar School, although they were entitled to £i,OOO endow­ RAILWAY FROM WARWICK '1'0 SWAN ment. In 1864 and again in 1865, the CREEK. Ipswich Grammar School received £2,000. Mr. MoRGAN said, with regard to the Mr. PALMER said he must admit it appeared motion he had placed on the paper:-" That that the Ipswich Grammar Schoo~ at that this House will, at it next sitting, resolve time had a great deal more than It should itself into a Committee of the Whole, to have had, because there were salaries also consider of an Address to the Governor, voted in 1864. As to the present application, praying that His Excellency will be pleased he agreed with the Attorney-General, it was to cause to be placed on the next Supplemen­ a bad precedent Lo allow the trustees of a tary E~timates, 1876-7, the sum of .£20,000, ll20 WoJ'king of the [ASSElVIBLY.] Police Systeni. towards defraying the expense of the con­ New South Wales police. He certainly hoped struetion of a cheap railway from Warwick the House would allow the committee to be through the Agricultural Reserve up Swan appointed to thoroughly inquire into the Creek "-that he did not care to again post­ working of the police system. pone it. ·when he put i~ on the paper there The CoLoNIAL SECRETARY said a motion of was a very general des1re on the part of this kind was simply a farce at that period of other honorable members to bring forward the s2ssion. The motion was to inquire into similar motions; and if it had -not been :for the general working of the police system, the manner in which his district had been and the honorable gentleman, m speaking of neglected in th~ Estimates, h~ should .not it, referred to some paltry case of horse-breed­ have introduced 1t at all. He d1cl not beheve ing. If it were simply a small affair of horse­ there was a district in the colony, except breeding, he might mention that with the the W arrego, that had been so Rhamefully permission of the Commissioner of Police, he neglected as the electorate of Warwick in had shown the honorable member a letter regard to repairs to roads and bridges. He in which the matter was fully explained, had no hope of being able to carry the and which c~mpletely cleared the Com­ motion, and with the con.~ent of the House missioner of the charges made. There he would withdraw it, but at the same time had been no charge made that would have he expressed his determination, although he the slightest weight with the House or the did not believe in log-rolling-to oppose public in connection with the affair ; and to similar motions when brought forward on ask for a committee to be appointed to future occasions. inquire into the general working of the police Motion, by leave, withdrawn. system seemed like a blind. It was not what the honorable member wanted. He had stated that he wanted to clear the WORKING OF 'l'HE POLICE SYSTE;rr. character, or otherwise, of the Commissioner. Mr. W. ScorT moved- of Police; but if he went into this question, (1.) That a Select Committee be appointed to there was not the slightest probability of inquire into, and report upon, the general work­ anything being clone this session. The com­ ing of our police system. mittee would simply sit and ·take evidence; (2.) That such committee hrr>e powe~· to sc;nd but they would not have time to bring up a for persons ancl parers! ancl leaye to s1t cl.nrn1g: report, and there would be no clearing of any adjournment of tlus House ; and cons1s~ of character, or any result whatever. He Messrs. Pal mer, Ivory, Kmgsforcl, Tyre!, Bmloy, should therefore oppose the motion on that Stevenson, and the JYloyer. ground. If the honorable gentleman would He said, in moving for this committee, he had make any positive charges against the Com­ taken the advice of friends of the Commis­ missioner of Police, he (the Colonial Secretary) sioner of Police. In fact he was anxious would be quite prepared, as head of the that that gentleman should have an oppor­ department, to investigate them and to take tunity of clearing his character of the charge action if they were proved. By that means that had been made against him, and he the honorable member could have the same should certainly pressthemotion; and he hoped amount of proof, and obtain it much easier the committee would inquire into the matter than in the way proposed. He (the Colonial and see whether there was any foundation for Secretary) was quite prepared to deal with the hearsay he (Mr. Scott) had repeated in any charges against the Commissioner or any the House. He had been shown a letter the person in his employment. He should other day, by the honorable the Colonial Sec­ oppose the motion. retary, in which it w~s stated that hOJ;se­ Nir. P.uMER said he hoped the honorable clealing had been earned on for some t1me member would withdraw the motion. At by the Commissioner of Police, for what that period of the session, no good could mu·pose he did nut know, and he could result from the appointment of such a com· ~ot. make out. If the honorable gentleman mittee. It was opening the door to a very had exhibited his letter ancl had it pub­ large inquiry indeed, and one which, if begun, lished some time ago, he should not have must be carried to the end. They must have proceeded in the matter; but he thought witnesses from all parts of the colony, and it the general management of the Police De­ would not only be a very expensive inquiry­ partment should be inquired into. He that he did not care much about, when public had no doubt other matters-he would interests were concerned-but one that could not say abuses, but irregularities-would not possibly be carried out this session. be discovered, especially in connection The reason given by the honorable member with the native police force, and he was for Mulgrave in moving for the committee sure the inquiry would be the means was, that it was with a view to clear the Com­ of doing a great deal of good to the missioner's character; but he (Mr. Palmer) country. He certainly had no fault to find thought that was hardly necessary. He did with the white police. At present the white not believe the Commissioner's character police force of the colony were a very supe· wanted clearing. The matter of this horse­ rior class of men, and he believed they were breeding had been explained before, and he managed in a much better manner than the was quite ready to explain it again. The Working of tke [26 OCTOBER.] Police System. 1121 fact was, that a number of mares were murder and manslaughter-two cases, he purchased when he was Colonial Secre­ thought, during the last year; and he certainly tary, for the purpose of sending them considered the system should be looked into. to Somerset, where horses were constantly But, as the honorable member for Port Curtis wanted for supplying the station, and they said, it opened up a very large question, he could not be got there without a great deal had no doubt the honorable member for of trouble and risk. The intention was to Mulgrave would withdraw it this session, if send up a horse and breed horses for the honorable members thought there was not use of the station, but when it came to time to do justice to it. the matter of sending them up, Captain JYir. DE SATGE said he was glad to hear the Mores by, of the "Basilisk," who had offered honorable member for Mulgrave bear testi­ to take some horses there, absolutely refused mony to the efficiency of the police force, to take mares, and they had rem;ined on and also to the good management of the hand ever since. They were the property of Commissioner. That was, at any rate, due the Government, and their produce was from the motive which, he thought, inspired also the property of the Government, and the honorable member, from the first, in were branded with the Government brand bringing this motion before the House. He as soon as they were old enough, and the perfectly agreed with the honorable member foals were running in the police paddock at for Port Curtis, that it opened up a very large Gympie. He did not see what there was to question, and one that should be commenced be cleared. An inquiry into the whole work­ at the beginning of the session. He certainly ing of the police system was one that should thought that next session there should be an be commenced at the beginning of the session, inqmry into what had been mentioned by the and was a very serious inquiry indeed. As honorable member for Clermont, with refer­ far as the white police were concerned, he ence to the native police. He believed the did not see himself, nor had the honorable pressure brought to bear on the Commissioner, member shown that an inquiry was necessary; in connection with the native police, was but if the black police system was to be worse than the management of the whole inquired into properly, the committee of the white police put together. He would have to sit for months, and evidence knew, from that gentleman's own mouth, would have to be procured from the far that pressure was continually brought to interior, and it could not possibly be done bear against him on that point, and the this session. real sufferers were the outside districts. Mr. STEVENSON said the honorable mem­ He thought the earliest opportunity should ber for Mulgrave, he thought, stated that the be taken by the Government, next session, principal object he had in view was an inquiry to move for a committee to inquire into into the working of the native police force, this subject. The native police could not and he (Mr. Stevenson) consi~ered that such afford the right protection to the outside an inquiry was very neces~ary m deed. There districts. The large amount of country had been many complaints made by outside that was being taken up to the westward and settlers-or those who were not quite in the the north, where t1e tribes were even more outside districts, but in districts which were civilised and more warlike than they were to supposed to be pretty well settled-about the the southward, demanded that this force removal of the black police from those dis­ should be increased rather than diminished; tricts, because they had become a little and, when it was increased, it would require civilised. It was patent to everyone who an amount of organization that would make knew anything about the out8ide districts it almost a separate department. He thought -the vVarrego and the Barcoo - where the sooner they returned to the old days, those removals were taking place, that the when it was worked separately, the better. aborigines very soon knew when the police The question was one of extreme importance. were removed, and that they began their Mr. O'SuLLIVAN said he thought great depredations just the same as they used to honor was due to the honorable gentleman do in the early days. He thought there who brought this motion forward, for the were a good many things connected with the calm and temperate manner m which he had native police question that ought to be in­ introduced it. That honorable member had quired into. The,y ou~ht to know s.omethi_ng spoken favorably of the white police and the about the instructwns Issued to native police Commissioner, and hadacknowledged that they officers. were better conducted than the force in New Mr. P ALMEH: lVlove for a copy of the in­ South Wales, or the other colonies. He structions. quite agreed with the honorable member for Mr. SrEVENSON said he believed there had Port Ourtis that it was too late in the session been a good many instructions given to the to appoint this committee. His principal native police officers, besides those given on object in rising was to correct a report that paper. He had himself seen copies of letters appeared in one of the local papers at the to native police officers, apart ~rom the time they were passing the Estimates. It usual instructions, which he considered a was then put into his mouth that he said he disgrace to any colon,y. And then they wanted to do away with the native police, but find native police officers brought up for he said no such thing. What he did say 4o 1122 Working of the Puliee System. [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Survey. was, that he wished to see more white people Mr. MoRGAN thought that no honorable in the shape of officers in that force. ~is member on either side of the House had the objection was, that there were no wh1 te slightest intention of imputing unworthy people at all in it except the officer in charge, motives to the mover of this resolution, or and he inferred the reason was that the:re believed that he was animated by any but could be no evidence given of what took the best intentions, and he was very glad to place outside, as the evidenc.e of the native hear the honorable member say that he did police would not be taken m a court of not wish to cast any slur upon the gentleman justice. who had control over the police force of the The CoLONIAL SECRBTARY: There is always colony. He was glad also to hear the horror­ a sergeant as well as the officer in charge. able member for Port Curtis' testimony not ~ir. O'SuLLIVAN said the sergeant was in only to the value of the Commissioner, but charge of the camp, an~ he believed ne.ver the force under his control. At the same went out. The officer h1mself went out, and time, he believed, there were some subjects what took place outside nobody knew. How­ which ought to be inquired into in connec­ ever well conducted the force might be, that tion with the native police force, but it was waH sufficient to create suspicion. It had often now so late in the session that it was scarcely struck him with regard to the native police advisable to appoint the committee asked for, that no one was ever brought to justice, as at the most, only a progress report could and the conclusion was--in fact it was openly be brought up. The honorable member had stated-that the blacks were massacred better introduce the subject early next ses­ instead of being brought to justice, and the ·sion. Giving the lwnorable member credit fact of there being only one white officer for the best intentions, he would join with tended to strengthen the suspicion. He was, other honorable members in asking the lwnor­ therefore, in favor of maintaining the native able member to withdraw the motion. police force, but he wished to see it inter­ Mr. 'N. ScoTT said he would take the advice spersed with a few more white people. He re­ which honorable members had given him, on membered, when a committee of th1s kind was the ground that it was too late in the session appointed some years ago, nothing resulted to enter into an inquiry of this kind. He Jrom it, and at that time a tender was would, however, again assert that he had sent into the Government to defend the taken thi~ step through no ill-feeling on his whole of the border for the sum of £10,000 part towards Mr. Seymour. It was neces­ a·year, but no notice was taken of it. He sary to repeat this, because he Jound he had hoped the honorable member. for Ml:'lgrave, been strongly condemned in some quarters having acted so honorably m movmg the outside of the House ; and allegations had motion, would withdraw it, and show that he been falsely made that he had brought charges had no personal feeling in the matter. against the Commissioner of Police. 'l'he .Mr. IvoRY agreed that it was rather late in letter which the Colonial Secretary possessed the session to have such an inquiry as that justified what he had done, and he thought he proposed by the honorable member for Mul­ ought to receive credit rather than condemna­ grave, and he woul? join pre_vious ~peakers tion for bringing the subject to the surface. in advising him to w1thdraw h1s motwn. At He would now withdraw the motion, and next the same time, many of the remarks that had session he hoped some one would take it up, been made would do good. The honorable and direct special inquiry into the native member did not deserve some of the criti­ police, against whom many charges had cisms upon his conduct, for there was no lately been made. doubt he was instigated to take the course he :\lotion withdrawn by leave. had taken through the remarks of several members who recommended him, if he had anything to complain of, to apply for a Seleet RAILWAY SURVEY. Committee to inquire into the whole matter. :Hr. IVORY moved- In accordance with that recommendation, the That this House will, at its next sitting,, honorable member gave notice of his inten­ resolve itself into a Committee of the \Vhole, to tion to move for a committee. He might consider of an Address to the Governor, praying have enlarged upon it rather too much, but that His Ex.cellency will be pleased to cause to be at the same time there could be no doubt placed on the Supplementary Loan Estimates the that the matter he referred to on a former sum of £2,000, for the purpose of defraying the occasion would have been one of the subjects cost of a sur-vey of a line of railway from of inquiry, and the statements he made were JHaryborough to Gaynclah. to a certain extent borne out by the honor­ He thought it was useless to make many able member for Port Curtis, in his remarks remarks in moving this resolution, since he relalive to the breeding of horses. He agreed presume' i it would be allowed to go almost as with the honorable the Colonial Secretary a formal motion, especially as there could be that there could be no accusation of anirnu8 no doubt about the justice of the claim he lodged against the honorable member. After made. Gayndah was almost in the centre of the expression of opinion thal had been offered the resen·e which the Government had by a number of members, he hoped the hon­ mapped out. He should, therefore, confine orable member would withdraw the motion. himself to moving the resolution, reserving to Railwa.IJ Sur1•ey. [26 OCTOBER. J Railway Survey. 1123

himself the right to enter more fully into the had changed their policy completely, and subject in committee considering what they had done for other The CoLoNIAL TREASURER said he sup­ districts, it was their duty to make the survey posed the House would allow the motion to asked for. All districts should be treated go into committee; at the same time he must alike, and the Minister for Works must well protest against its being proposed when there know that if he thought all kinds of works was no serious intention of the vote being were to be rammed down the throats of proceeded with. He considered the demand honorable members, he was very much mis­ for £2,000 for a preliminary survey of a taken. railway from Maryborough to Gayndah, re­ Mr. Gnoo:~r said it did not necessarily membering the large amount already placed follow that all members on his side of the on the Estimates for railway construction, House were bound to follow the wishes of the entirely uncalled for. The honora1le member Government in this respect, and the honor­ who proposed the motion had not even proved able member for Springsure was not fair in the necessity of the line; he had, on his assumption that, because the Govern­ the contrary, treated it in a manner that ment intended to oppose the motion, all showed clearly that he had merely placed it members on their side of the House would, of upon the paper on account of such a large necessity, oppose it also. One of the strongest number of motions of a simil11.r chamcter reasons for the motion passing was that the having been placed there. Government would, in a few days, ask the Mr. IvoRY: Not at all. House to set apart a large area of land in the The CoLONIAL TREASURER said that, at any Burnett district for a railway reserve. Some rate, was his belief, and a largenumberofmem­ of the honorable member's constituency who bers on that side of the House entertained were fond of writing to the newspapers had similar views. The very manner in which pointed out the desirableness of having a rail­ the honorable member presented the subject way from Maryborough to Gayndah, and to the House showed that be had no expecta­ there could certainly be no harm in having a tion of getting what he asked for; it would survey through the honorable member's therefore be far better at the present stage of district. He (Mr. Groom) could not see that the session if the honorable member with­ the motion of the honorable member for drew his motion. He could not hold out the \Varwick was a parallel case ; that motion slightest expectation of assist11.nce or support was for a branch railway to an agricultural from the Government.· reserve; this, on the other hand, was part of Mr. J. Scorr said it was very evident tint a trunk line which the Government them­ this proposal emanated from that side of the selves commenced to go as far as Gympie. House, and that if it had come from a sup­ There was, therefore, no comparison between porter of th~ ~overnment, the ~·esult would the two, and if the honorable member pressed have been dtfierent. The Colomal ·Treasurer this motion to a i!ivision he should support it, might have suggested that there was no hope for it was a reasonablte request, and the of the railway being constructed at present, simple carrying out of a policy which the but he would not have announced that the Government themselves were initiating iu Government intended to oppose it. Yet the the railway reserves. survey asked for was most necessary, espe­ Mr. M l'I!PHY said this was one of the cially if the Burnett Resene was to be thrown cases which the Government should allow to open. If there was not a line survey from go into committee, and, if the honorable Marybnrough to Gayndah, the ground would member made out his case, he for one would very likely some day have to be repurchased be prepared to vote the money. He should, and taken up by the Government. It was howevAr, make out a case as he (Mr. evident what would be the fate of anything Mmphy) had to do with reference to the that emanated from that side of the House. survey of a railway from Cooktown to the Mr. MoRGAN said the honorable gentleman Palmer. The line proposed would not be a was in no way j~stified in making such a branch of the Gympie line, but, in reality, remark. It was s1mply not true that because a second railway from Maryborough. If the a proposition emanated from the other side honorable member did establish his case, he of the House it was treated with disfavor. would certainly deserve the credit of his con­ He, }fr. Morgan, had himself, during the stituents. evening, withdrawn a similar motion to that Mr. PAL:llER said he should like to see of the honorable member's, because he saw where there was any analogy between the no hope of carrying it. \Yhen the colony present motion, which was for £2,000 for the was engaged in promoting main trunk lines survey of a railway, and the motion, which to the utmost of its ability, that was quite had been withdrawn, of the honorable mem­ enough. There was not the slightest chance ber for \Varwick for £20,000 to construct a of the honorable member carrying the railway. There was no similarity between motion, and he hoped he would withdraw it, the two whatever, not the most distant. The and join with him in opposing every similar House had several times, during the present motion on the paper. session, affirmed the principle of having sur­ ~fr. AMHURST was sorry for the position veys of railways made where there was a pro­ which the Government had taken up; they bability of such railways being required in a 1124 [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Survey. few years; and he knew of no survey which honorable gentleman would find that he had had the same claim for support as that of a not done so, but intended to carry it through. line of railway from Maryborough to Gayn­ When the resolution ~ot into committee he dah. They found that the land around should shuw that honorable gentleman that Gayndah was to be reserved for the purposes the line he proposed was much more feasible of a railway from Maryborough to Gympie; as a trunk line than many others which had and yet, when the honorable member for the been supported by the Government. He Burnett asked for a survey to bemadethrough should do his best to show honorable members that very reserve, he met wit:il a decidecl that in place of its being a bogus line, it was refusal from the Colonial Treasurer. If, really the principal line that should have its however, the honorable member for the terminus at Maryborough. He believed Burnett had been a supporter of the Govern­ that a line going from Maryborough to ment, there would have been very little ob- Gayndah was going between the rich lands jection made-- ' of Kilkivan and Mount Perry, and that The CoLONIAL TREASURER : I opposed the making it as one trunk line would be far motion of the honorable member for East better than making the two lines projected by Moreton. the Government between Maryborough and Mr. PALMER said they knew all about that Gympie, and Bundaberg and Mount Perry. -how the honorable gentleman would say to In the present position of parties he had very the honorable member for East Moreton, little hope of seeing the line constructed, " I must oppose your motion, but it will be more especially as he had been told by the all right." Why, the honorable Treasurer Treasurer that it would meet with most must be a baby to think that the House did strenuous opposition from the Government. not understand those little arrangements. But seeing that the motion was merely for He should support the motion, especially as a survey of a line, and seeing that great it had been affirmed by the House that land attention was being directed to the vVide should not be resumed to make a railway Bay and Burnett district, through its having anywhere except in the district benefiting been thrown open, under the Railway Re­ by the construction of the railway. serves Bill, to conditional purchase, he Mr. MoRGAN wished to explain that when thought measures should be taken to secure he withdrew his motion he did so without land alongside a line of railway which must having consulted the Government in any ultimately be constructed. He considered way, or without r~ceiving. in~t~uctions from that making a survey now would be a saving them either collectively or md1v1dually. hereafter to the country of very great Mr. BAILEY said he did not think it would expense, because the land along the surveyed be fair on his part to vote against the motion line would be reserved from sale until such of the honorable memher for the Burnett, time as the railway was constructed. The because he remembered the time when the honorable member for Warwick had asked Maryborough people themselves were ex­ him to join him in opposing all railways that tremely anxious for a railway between that were not trunk lines. Now, he took it that place and Gayndah, and because he knew the honorable member was opposed to every that they still cast longing eyes in that line except the Warwick and Stanthorpe direction. He did not know that there would line and the line from Dalby to Roma -- be any traffic for such a line for some time to 1\!Ir. MoRGAN : No. come, but in a few years it might be expedient Mr. IVORY said that the honorable mem­ to take a line out in that direction. He ber, perhaps, included the extension of the believed it was their duty to make as many line, the terminus of which was at Rock­ surveys as possible, where lands were likely hampton. to be required for railway purposes, in order Mr. MoRGAN : And all the others proposed to avoid having to pay the difference in the by the Government. cost of a railway, which was caused by hav­ Mr. PALMER: The Highfields line, of ing to repurchase, at a high price, lands which course. were originally sold at a low price, more Mr. IvoRY presumed the honorable mem­ especially in the present case, where the ber was in favor of the Maryborough and survey would go through what was to be Gympie, and the Bundaberg and Mount proclaimed a railway reserve. He was aware Perry lines. He would ask the honorable that the Maryborough people looked with member if he was acquainted with the great suspicion on the motion, but he coul.d geography of th~ country through which the not, for the reasons he had stated, refuse lus line he proposed would go ? support to it. Mr. MoRGAN: It is not proposed by the Mr. vV. ScoTT said he was glad that the Government. honorable member for the Burnett had moved Mr. IvoRY inferred from the honorable for the survey, and he hoped that within a member's remark, that because the Govern­ few years they should see the line of railway ment had not proposed the line, it was not a carried out. trunk line. He considered that the district Mr. IvoRY said he had been accused by he represented should not be called upon to the honorable Treasurer of bringing forward contribute one farthing towards the 01 her the motion in a half-hearted manner; but the lines, for the preamble of the Bill said, that ThA Case of C26 OcToBER.~ S. and ,T, Broom. 1125 the funds were to come from districts only 1 had left the House, and transferred his busi­ benefiting from the lines. He had been ness from one house to the other. In con· much pleased with the amount of support he sequence of a public thoroughfare being made had received from the House, and hoped that 1 through the property, it was impossible for it would be accorded to him, not only that the Brooms' to get a tenant, and that state of evening, but also when the matter got into things continued for five or six years, till committee. the (;overnment again gave notice that the

The question vras put and passed. 1 land would be required for railway purposes. He wished to show that in consequence of the action of the Government between 1866 and THE CASE OF S. AND J. BROOM. 187 4, the property was abandoned and totally Mr. FooTE, in reference to the motion neglected, so that when the Government which, pursuant to notice, he brought for- arbitrator was called upon to decide in the ward on this subject, said that it was matter, he did not take into consideration 1 precisely of the same purport as. that , the value of the property as it was when the which he had brought before the House Government first gave notice of resumption, during the previous session, and which but considered it his duty to deal with it as had resulted in a partial Jailnre from not it was some eight years afterwards. Mr. having been decided. It would be necessary MaC'pherson, who was examined by the Select for him to go at some length into the matter, 1 Committee, said, in answer to a question as honorable members had, he had no doubt, whether he would give any information he forgotten the nature of the case, notwith- possessed on the matter:- standing a Select Committee had been ordered "On the 6th August, 18i4, pursuant to a. by that House to take evidence on it and not iee sent to me by the Commissioner of Railways, report upon the same; which was duly done, I held an inquiry at Ipswich, in a case in which the rep01 t of the committee being now before Stephen Broom was stated by the Commissioner him. It appeared that, in 1865, Stephen and to be the claimant, to decide upon the value of James Broom were owners and occupiers of certain land re umed by the Government for rail­ a certain portion of land at Ipswich, upon way purposes, pursuant to the provisions of the which was erected an hotel, winch was let to Railway Act. At that inquiry the claimant was a certain party at a rental. They received represented by his solictor, who, at the outset, notice from the Government of the day represented to me that he appeared without pre­ that the property would be required to be judice to the rights of his client Broom, lest his resumed, inasmuch, as they contemplated client's interests might be jeopardized by his making a new street from Nicholas street to absence, as he considered and proved to me that Bell street; and in consequence of that notice, the land, at the time I held the inquiry, was not, in point of fact, the property of Broom, at all, which was duly carried after certain negocia­ but that it had been some years before resumed tions, the Surveyor-General, on the 12th by the Go;"ernn:ent, for the purpose of making a April, 1866, w!ote _to the petitio?ers in street; with that I had nothing to do, having simply reference to thmr chum of £1,500 for com­ to follow my duty under the Railway Act; assum­ pensation for lands resumed from them for ing the Commissioner to be correct, that Stepheu the purposeR of a road, stating that such claim . Broom was the proprietor, I had to deal with him had been accepted by the Government. Also ! as such, and following up the law, I had to deal that, on the 21st August following, the with the land as it stood at the time that notice petitioners wrote a letter to the Go.vernment, >Yas served upon him, that the land was requil·ed calling upon them to take possesswn of the for railway purposes. l held the inquiry, took land thus resumed. It was clearly shown by eYidence, and sent in my award, which was based the evidence add need before the committee upon t.he value of the land, with some dilapidated that the land was resumed, that due notice of buildings upon it, which were proved to have been it was given, that negociations were entered abandoned years before ; the amount of that award was £750 ; I may say that, in sending in into, and that the price was fixf'd upon that award to the Commissioner of Railways, I and ac<'epted by the Government. From accompanied it with a letter, which I will read to some cause or other, it transpired that, the Committee ; it is as follows :- although the Government had given due notice, they did not, at the time, take up t_he "Town Hall, Brisbane, land ; but, in consequence of the notiCe "August 25th, 1874. which had been given by the Government "Re BROOM'S ARBITRATION. and published in the Gazette-that they "Sm,-In handing you my award in this case, I would take possession of the property and deem it my duty to state, that on the hearing of the matter the professional adviser of the claim­ would make a thoroughfare through it-Jt ant, Mr. 'l'hompson, intimated that he simply was used as a street. At that time the appeared before me lest his client's interests property was let to a publican named H ichatd might be jeopardised by his absence, and without Hargraves, who was paying rent under lease, p1•ejudice, as he considered, and so did his client, but in consequence of the notice that had that the land in question was the property of the been served on the Brooms by the Govern­ Government, having been remmed for road pur­ ment three months before the expiration of poses in the year 1866, and the compensation for Hargraves' lease, he had taken other premises same fixed at the sum of £1,500. In support of near to it, and before the lease terminated, he this statement, he produced a copy of a letter 1126 The C'a.•f' qf [ASSEJ\IBLY.] 8. and J. Broom. from the Sur>eyor-General, intimating the accept­ JYlr. lYieRPHY thought the honorable mem­ ance of an offer of the property :tt this amount, ber had made out a prima facie case to go and stated, as in fact he afterwards pro\ecl, that into committee, and for that reason he (Mr. the buildings on the land bad been abandonec1 by JYlurphy) had seconded the motion. As he the claimant, on the assumption that the land understood the honorable member, the case ceased to be his property, and that they had in as he had put it was this :-The Government consequence become a wreck. resumed some land in Ipswich belonging to " As it was beyond my province to decide any the parties mentioned, for road purposes, and question of title, I had merely to deal with the bare question of the value of the property, as it. agreed to pay them £1,500 for it. Some stood at the time notice of resumption for rail­ years afterwards, no settlement having been way purposes was given, and this I have accorrl­ arrived at by the Government, the land was ingly clone in my award sent herewith. taken for railway purposes, and the railway ''I ha\e, &c., i arbitrator, Mr. lYiacpherson, a·' arded thel'tl "P. MACPJIERSON, £750. But the Government had previously " Railway Arbitrator. taken it over for £1,500, so that as a matter "To the Commissi.merfor Railwa.):S, Brisbane." of contract between the Crown and the sub­ ject, he thought the sum originally agreed He believed there could be uo doubt in the upon should be paid by a vote of that House, minds of honorable members as to the evi­ assuming that there should be sufficient ex­ dence taken giving the real facts of the case. planation for the length of time that had He had mentioned Mr . .Marphersou's letter, elapsed. Under ordinary circumstances the and would now read the letter of the Surveyor­ Statute of Limitations would come in, but General, as follows:- perhaps the honorable member would be able " SurYevor-General's Office, to explain the delay in committee. "Brisbane, 12th April, 1866. Mr. AMHURST said the Statute of Limita­ "GENTLE:UEN,-In reference t_o your claim of tions did not begin to run unless the party £1,500, for compensation for land resumed for did not keep the thing alive, and this case the new street, Ipswich, I have the honor to had been brought before the House every inform you that, having euhmitted it for the session for several years past. The Statute consideration of the Government, I am instrueted of Limitations, therefore, did not apply. to inform you t.hat yom· offer is acceptecl. Mr. Mt;RPHY said the way to keep a claim " I lmve the honor to be, alive was to issue a writ. " Gentlemen, JHr. O'SuLLIYAN corroborated the state- "Your obetlient senant, , ments of the mover of the motion, with re­ "A. C. GREOORY. gard to the transactions connected with the "Messrs. J. antl S. Broom, Ipswich." case. He had known the lVIessrs. Broom for over five and ~wenty years ; they were simple, 1 t was thus very clear that notice was given, honest, workmg men, and he was perfectly and also that the amount of compensation satisfied that they would not make a claim was arrived at that should be given to the of this kind if they did not, in their Brooms; also, that the amount was accepted own consciences, believe they were en­ by the Brooms. But they never got the titled to it. They thoroughly believed the money, but only the award of £750 given by Government had taken the property com­ the railway arbitrator, eight years after­ pletely out of their hands; and every man in wards. On those grounds. he contenderl Ipswich was under the impression that it that there was a sum of £'750 still due to belonged to the Government. It was dP­ Messrs. Broom ; and he was satisfied, also, serted, and a thorough tare was made through that it was not the intention of that House the place, and it was afterwards taken for to do an injustice to any body. He felt that railway purposes. He believed the honorable he la bored under some difficulty, as the member for W <'St 1\iforeton had no personal matter was of such old date, and as it had interest in the matter, so far as his business been before the notice of previous Govern· as a storekeeper was concerned, tor this ments, by whom the claim had been rPjected. reason: That the Brooms were farmers, However, he trusted the House would do who lived outside the town altogether, and justice to the parties, and award them the were quiet, settled men, who would not spend sum to which they eonsidered they were money, and would not go in debt; they were entitled. The honorable member for the independent mf'n in a small way, and would Bremer was fully satisfied of the justness of not go to law with anybody. the claim, and, were he present, would sup­ The PREMIER said he knew something port the motion. He begged to move- about this case, and could bear out the state­ That the House will, a1. its next sitting, resoh·e ment that the Brooms were undPr the itself into a. Committee of the \Vhole, to consider imprPs~ion that this property belonged to ltll Address, praying that His Excellency woulcl ! the GovPrnment. When Mr. Macalister be pleased to eause to be plaPed on the Supple­ was Minister for \Yorks some years ago, the mentary Estimates £750 to reimburse Messrs. S. property was taken by tlte Government for and J. :Broom for the loss sustained bv them in the purpose of making a street to cor nect the resumption of their property by tl~e Gcwern­ Bell aud K icholas streets, and the Brooms ment, appointed him as tht>ir arbitrator, the Gov- The Case uJ S. anrl J. Broum. [26 Oc-roBER.j 1127 ernment appointing Mr. Gregory. The :I'vir. PALM ER: There is no "supposed" result of the arbitration was, that the about it. Brooms were awarded £1,500, but the l\Ir. EmroNDSTONE said· the fact of the property was worth more than that. matter was, these people had been sacrificed, Mr. P ALMER: "Why did not you give them simply because, at the time their claim was more? brought forward, there happened to be a The PREMIER said, Mr. Gregory beat him change of Ministry ; and the consequence down. The Brooms accepted the amount was that their wrongs were lost sight of in awarded by Mr. Gregory and himself, and the exivendes of the Government. He cer­ the Minister of the day, he believed, approved tainly thought it was the duty of the of the arbitration Subsequently, the pre­ House to correct that, and not allow those mises, having been deserted, deteriorated in people to be actually robbed; and the least value, and he thought the Brooms were they could do was to go into committee to entitled to receive the balance bebveen investigate ~he matter and give proper judg­ the amount awarded by the railway arbitra­ ment upon 1t. tion, and the amount previously awarded. Question put and passeLl. Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: They lost. the interest on the money. CO.M2HIS::liO:XER J!'OR RAILWAYS. Mr. P ALMER said he thought the most .Mr. PALMER moved- doubtful part of the a_ffair w_as that ~he Premier had been an arb1trator m connectwn That the following meFsage, received from the Legislative Council on the 11th instant, be agreed with it. He did not intend to oppose the to.:- motion, but if he recolle0ted rightly, he "The Legislative Council ha.-ing come to the thought a document turned up which it was following Resolution, viz. :-That with a view to considered should be referred back to the the efficient management of the Railway Depart· committee for further examination. "\Yhether ment, it is desirable that the office of the Corn· a motion to that effect was carried or not he missioner for Railways should be separated from did not remember. that of Under Seeretarv for Works ; and that a JHr. FooTH: That document was attached Commissioner of Raih,~ays should be appointed, to the evidence. whose sole duty it should be to take the manage· Mr. PALMER said he had not looked at the ment of the Raihmy Department ;-and that the evidence lately, and he should resPrve to foregoing Resolution be communicated to the himself the right in committee to inquire Legislative Assembly, by Message, in the usual further into the document, which was marked way,-Beg now to intimate the same to the in a very peculiar way by \1r. Macalister. Legislati-ve Assembly." It said, those cases marked with a cross had no He said he had withdrawn the Notice of claims whatever, and that wanted explana­ Motion hehadgiven-N o. 21-in order to take tion. up this Order of the Day, and it was rather Mr. J. Scorr said it appeared to him that a curious coincidence that, without any con­ if these men were entitled to £750, they were sultation, a motion of the same sort was put also entitled to interest on that amount. It on the paper of the other House by Mr. was ten years since they gave the property up, Sandeman, and as that motion had got and interest for that period would bring the through the other place quicker than his amount up to about £1,500. motion co11ld get through that House, he was :I'vir. ED:IIONDSTONE said if any honorable perfectly prepared to take up that message member received a letter from the Surveyor­ and move that it be agreed to. It exactly General to tbe effect that his property was to met his views on the subject. He thought it be taken for a special purpose at a valuation must be patent to everybody who had noticed of £1,500, he would naturally believe that he the progress of affairs in the colony that the was entitled to that amount, and that the work of the Under Secretary foi· w· orks, property was no longer his, but had simply to coupled with thatofCommissonerfor Railways, be handed over to the Government. And was too much for any one man to do fairly and that was precisely what happened in this properly, and he believed the Railway Depart­ instance; and he thought the lwnomble ment suffered in consequence. vVithout member who had brought forward the claim, making the slightest reflection on the manner was doing those unfortunate people consider­ in which tbe business had been conducted bv able wrong in not asking the House to vote the present Under Secretary for ·works and the full amount which was justly due to Commissionerfor Railways, he believed the them. 'l'he matter was fully investigated time had arrived when, for the benefit of the last session, and the statements of the honor· public service, the offices should be separated. able member for \Y est :More ton were then He had very little doubt that the present corroborated by the honorable member for Under Secretary for "\Yorks, if he continued Bremer; but there was some document, or in office as Commissioner for llailways, supposed document, like another celebrated could do his work, and do it well. He (the document that was said some years ago to be in Commissioner) had some old-fashioned pre­ existence and never turned up, and very pro­ judices about rates, but he was open to bably this supposed document in the Brooms' conviction on that point, and he (Mr. Palrner) case would never turn up. believed it only required the Secretary for 1128 Com1nissionerj'oJ' Railways. [ASS.EMBLY.J Commissz'oner for Railways.

Works to put his foot down firmly, 'and insist placing new men over the heads of old upon a proper scale being established to officers; and he might state that during the secure it, and b~r so doing, lu' would time he was at the head of the Post Office he prevent a great deal of the complaints rigidly adhered to the rule never to appoint now made as to the conduct of the a new man over the heads of the officers Railway Department. He \1 as not going to of the department, and it was not cast reflection< on any of the parties concerned very likely if they separated the offices in the management of their railways. The of Commissioner for Railways and Under work had incrpased on both the Southern Secretary for Works, that he should do so in and Northern lines to a considerable extent, this instance. 'fhe duties of the Under Sec­ and if they were to keep pace with the pro­ retarv for vVorks and Commissioner for gress of the day, he believed it was necessary Hail ways were altogether too hard; in fact, that they should have a man whose whoJe it was too hard for the Minister to attend to and Role attention would be given to the con­ the vVorks Office, the Department of :Mines, duct of their railway affairs. The party and that of Railways, especially during appointed Commissioner for Rai_l':"ays ,;houl d the session ; and speaking for himself, he be peculiarly fitted for that pos1t10n, because should prefer that there should be a under the various Acts in connection with Minister for Mines and Railways, instead of the Railway Department, very large powers separating the office of Commissioner for Rail­ were entrusted to the Commissioner, and he ways. He did not think the Commissioner believed in the gentleman holding that office for Railways would have enough to do, and not being tramm~lled b.J;" the affair~ of another that was one very great reason why he should office. He beheved If that officer moved preler another Minister. That was only his about the country and saw what was going ! own opinion, and he would point out to the on on the lines in course of construction, a honorable member for .Port Curtis, that with great deal of money would be saved to the an additional Minister, the voting power of colony. He regretted that the question had the Government in a House of forty-three not come on in a fuller House, but that was members would not be as great as in the last not his fault; but he took it for granted there House of thirty-two members, when there would be no opposit;on to it. He had not were five :Ministers. The mining interest of heard of any opposition except on the part of the colony was a very important one, and re­ one honorable member who was not present, quired a great deal of attention, and he and he believed it would meet with the con­ thought it was only just that that great in­ currence of the Government. He had no terest, which was second to none in the authority for saying so, but he _judged by colony, being quite equal in importance to their silence and the apparent anXIety of the the pastoral interest, should have a :Minister honorable the Premier that this question.: of its own. He considered it required as should come on, and he hoped it would be much consideration, or even more, than the agreed to. He did not think the House railways. The work in connection with should attempt to dictate to the Government \ mines was diffi~ult and heavy, as compared in any way as to who should be appointed in ' with that of the Commissiouer for Railways; the event of the separation of the two offices and he might here observe, that whenever being determined upon. He considered it a Commissioner for Railways was appointed, was beyond the province of _the House to the better the man, the more he would be dictate who should be appomted, but he abused by the public. That :was his (the thought they might, in passing a resolution 1 Premier's) experience in the "\Vorks Depart­ of that sort, express a hope that where old ment-that the more that officer worked, and officers in the service of the department no matter how effidently he performed his were fit for the situation, new men would not duty, the more the public out of doors, and be appointed over their heads. The House I the newspapers, clamoured against him. He had decidedly a right to express that feeling, thought the office of Commissioner for Rail- although he should be the bst to dictate to ways alone would be a sinecure; there the Government as to \\"ho they should ap­ would very little to do in that office, once point to any position. He hoped the motion good time-tables and a good classification of would be supported by members on all sides goods rates were made out; and he put it, of the House, and that if the appointment whether it would not be better to separate was made, very considerable improvement the mining interest from the Works office, would take place in the management of the and appoint a Minister of Mines. lt was l~ailway Department. It would be part of bound to come some day, and to come shortly, the duty ot the commissioner, by personal and he was sure the honorable member for inspection of the lines all over the colony, Kennedy would agree with him that the north as well as south, to expedite the mining interest was one of the most important business of the department as much as in tile colony. He would not oppose the possible. motion; he preferred taking the sense of the The PREMIFR said, before the resolution House upon it. It was not a matter that was agreed to, he had a few wcrds to say in should be taken in hand lightly, and he reference to the remarks of the honorable should like to see the debate adjourned until member for Port Curtis with regard to there -,.,·as a full House. Commissioner for Railtoays. [26 0cTOl3ER.] Oonilni.issioner fo1• Railways. 1129

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN said he fully agreed with to promotion when changes of this kind were a great deal the honorable member had said, made, in order io show that proper attention but he did not think they had members to their duties was appreciated. He knew a enough in the House to warrant the appoint­ case now, where an officer who had been in ment of another Minister. He agreed with the employment of the Government for fif. him that the time was coming when they teen years, was told, without a single word of should have another Minister, but he thought complaint, or without receiving hardly any they should have at least seven more notice, that his services would be dis­ members in the House before such an ap­ pensed with, and were dispensed with. pointment was made. There should be one Although that gentleman had served many for Townsville, one ior Burke, one for Stan­ years, because it was thought necessary thorpe, one for Roma, and a few more ; and to re-adjust the department, he was sent about he thouaht the honorable member for his business. Now that there was so much Kennedy"had done well in moving for another increase of business, he believed a Commis· member for his district. In doing so, he was sioner for .Railways was necessary, and he aRsisting the gentleman at the head of the should give the honorablemember his support. Government to carry out the very object he Mr. MACROSSAN said he was glad the had in view; and when that motion came on, honorable gentlemanat the head of the Govern· they would see if the Government took the menthad expressed his opinion on this matter. same view of the matter as they did now. If the Government, of which the honorable He thought this matter, respecting the Com­ gentleman was a member in 1874, had done its missioner for Railways, was not of so much duty with the gold fields, there would be no importance that they should adjourn it. need of a new Minister now-a Minister for Mr. M URPHY said, whether it was necessary Mines and Railways. Had a Minister for to appoint another Minister or not, he thought Mines been appointed, the development of the the motion of the honorable member for different mining fields of Queensland-he did Port Curtis was a step in the right direction. not allude to gold especially, but to other The increasing business of the Railway metals as well-would have been in a far Department seemed to necessitate the a~­ greater state of prosperity than at the present. pointment of an officer to take charge of It He felt certain that an active, energetic solely. He might mention that there had Minister for Mines, who understood the work, been a Commissioner for Railways in New would push Queensland forward ten years, if South Wales for ten or fifteen years past. he did his duty as it was done in Victoria. He was appointed long before the railways When a Bill dealing with this subject was in that colony had attained the. length they before the House, he supported it to the best had in Queensland. He .consi~ered that, of his ability, but the half-hearted support, or, with the railways already m existence, and rather, the negative manner in which the those contemplated, an appointment of the clause was dealt with, defeated it. He should kind mentioned was an absolute necessity. like to hear from some other members of the He thought it must be clear to anyone who Government if they held the same opinions had done any business with the gentleman at as the Premier; if so, he had not the slightest present occupying the position of Com­ doubt a MinisterforMinescould be appointed, misioner for Railways, that he was and he felt quite certain that if the attempt alwB>ys most courteous in his demeanor to was made, less opposition would be made to the public, and seemed disp?sed. to meet the proposal than at the beginning of 187 4. the wishes of the commumty m every Every day convinced them of the strong neces· way he could. But still it was im~ossible f~r sity of cultivating and developing the great him to give the. n~cessary att~ntwn to ~Is mining resources of the country. Upon duties as CommissiOner for Rmlways while those mining resources depended in a great he had also t.he office of Under Secretary for measure its ultimate population and settle· \Vorks to attend to. He therefore thought ment. For every new gold field that was the motion was a step in the right direction, opened, he believed an extension of the settle· necessitated by the extension of railways and ment of the country took place at least to the the exigencies of the times, and he should amount of half a million of acres. Men got certainly support it. money on the gold fields, and having been Mr. GROOM said he did not think the office used to a country life, came down South and of Commissioner for Railways could be such a settled; ultimately he believed the same sinecure as the honorable Premier wished to thing would take place in the North. Be· make out, because he would not only have sides this, the advantage that would accrue charge of the Southern and Western Railway, to the revenue from the discovery of even but if he did his dut.y, he should examine and one small gold field, or the additional de­ attend to the Northern Railway, and if he velopment of any one of the gold fields, would did that, he would have quite enough to do. more than counterbalance the expense of a He quite agreed with the honorable member new department. He saw the Attorney­ for l'ort Ourtis, that the present combination General smiling at his sanguine disposition. of the offices of Under Secretary for Works The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : No, no. and Commissioner for Railways was out of Mr. MAcRoSSAN said he feared there was place, and he certainly thought the officers of little chance of a mining department being that department had a right to look forward established while the honorable member was 4~ 1130 Gow1•ie Railway Accident. [ASSEMBLY.] AdJournment.

at the head of the present Government. Bu1: hardt, and £100 to Robert Dellar, asked though he (Mr. Macrossan) was in favor of' the honorable the Secretary for Works a Department of Mines with a responsible whether the Government intended to make Minister at the head of it, it would not pre­ any provision for Step hen W alsh, the engine­ vent him from voting for the motion of the driver, who was also seriously injured by the honorable member for Port Curtis, because same accident, and who was one of the best he believed while the Government were going men in the department P into such an extension of the railways, a The PREMIER said the Government had commissioner would find quite enough to do. placed a sum of £250 on the Supplementary There were two lines of railway in the South, Estimates for Stephen Walsh, who, he re­ one in the North, and five or six lines pro­ gretted to say, had been very seriously in­ jected, which he had no doubt would be jured by the accident referred to. carried out in the course of a year or two, Question-That the report be adopted­ and he believed any gentleman who had put and passed. these in charge would find more to do than he could well manage. For these reasons be hoped the Government would accept the proposition of the honorable m emher for Port Curtis. The MINISTER FOR LANDS said the appoint­ ment of a Mining Department was one thing, +.he appointment of a Commissioner for Rail­ ways was another, and the matter now under consideration was the latter. The work which had devolved upon the Commis­ sioner for Railways had, no doubt, not beeu performed by him, because he had been at the head of a department where the staff was overworked, and had not been able to do the duties of Commissioner and Under Secretary for Works. He had, in fact, been Commis­ sioner in !lame only, and for the purposes of law, but for nc!le of the really practical pur­ poses of railway work. Whoever was appointed, whether it was Mr. Herbert or not, there was ample work for a Commis­ sioner for Railways, who would spend a con­ siderable portion of his time in travelling over the lines, and concerning himself with departmental work upon them. It was very desirable that such an appoint­ ment should be made, and in that sense they ought to accept the resolution which had come down from the Upper House. There could be no question that some alteration must take place, and the best altm;ation at the present time would be the appointment of someone who would devote his entire ener­ gies, and the whole of his time to the manage­ ment and supervision of, not only the whole of the railway traffic, but railway construc­ tion, thereby being an adviser to the Ministry on all matters connected with tLe Railwav Department. They might gain greatly hy such a plan, and of course they would have to vote the gentleman who was appointed an amount of money that would be adequate to his services. However, he presumed the appointment would not be absolutely made until it had been fully discussed, and an amount placed upon the Estimates for the salary. Question put and passed.

GOWRIE RAILWAY ACCIDENT. Mr. GROOM, in moving the adoption of the report of the Committee of the "Whole, re­ commending the payment of £500 to the widow and children of the late John Ger-