Page | 1 CPI Unrestrained Transcription Episode 22: Dorothy Espelage Record Date: Length: 1:02:32 Host: Terry Vittone Terry: Hello and welcome to Unrestrained, a CPI podcast series. This is your host, Terry Vittone, and today I'm joined by author, speaker, anti‐bullying advocate, and professor of educational psychology Dr. Dorothy Espelage. Hello and welcome, Dorothy. Dorothy: Welcome and thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Terry: You're welcome. My guest, Dr. Dorothy Espelage, is a professor of educational psychology at the University of Illinois at Urbana‐Champaign and an international expert in bullying, youth aggression, and teen dating violence. She has authored several books including Bullying in North American Schools, Bullying Prevention and Intervention: Realistic Strategies for Schools, and Handbook of Bullying in Schools: An International Perspective. In addition, Dr. Espelage is the author and co‐author of over 120 peer‐reviewed journal articles. Dorothy grew up in Virginia and received her bachelor's degree in psychology from Virginia Commonwealth University. She then received a master’s degree in clinical psychology from Radford University before receiving her Ph.D. in counseling psychology from Indiana University. Since 1997 she has held the Edward William and Jane Marr Gutgsell professorship in educational psychology at the University of Illinois Urbana‐Champaign. Dr. Espelage has appeared as a speaker and consultant in numerous media outlets such as CNN, Anderson Cooper, Oprah, the Huffington Post, and many others. Dorothy is known for her work in bullying, homophobic teasing, sexual harassment, and teen dating violence. In particular, her research focuses on translating empirical findings into prevention and intervention programming. So then, Dorothy, let's begin. In September of 2013 you gave a lecture to Colorado's Bullying Prevention Institute called “With Awareness Comes Misperception.” You opened the talk by reviewing some very common misconceptions about bullying followed by current scientific evidence regarding the same issue. So let's begin with misconceptions about bullying as you present Page | 2 them at the top of your presentation. The number‐one misconception, bullying is an epidemic. Dorothy: Yeah. So I think that I've been studying this phenomenon for 22 years, really trying to draw attention to it even two decades ago. But it was only five years ago that our president had the first White House conference on bullying. And what it served to do was to really raise the awareness around bullying. But at the same time it almost instilled a panic in parents and teachers and administrators out there. And we were left with this notion that it's an epidemic. In fact it is a public health concern because there's a long‐term kind of outcome that is rather dark. But the reality is that we do know in some context and some schools bullying has gone down. Terry: I see. Dorothy: And so I think when we take that epidemic approach there's almost a reactionary approach versus a prevention approach. And it's interesting because many of my colleagues are like, “Dorothy, don't say that it's going down in places.” And I'm like, “I'm a prevention scientist. I would like to understand in which schools do kids not experience this. That we do have kind of healthy climates.” So I'm not saying that it's not a public health concern, but it certainly is not an epidemic. It's something that's been with us for many, many generations. I think it's going to continue to be there at some level. But will we eradicate it? I don't think so. But I think that we want to minimize and then prevent it and create safe school climates for as many kids as possible. Terry: Excellent. Another misconception or misperception, rather, is that bullying and suicide are linked. Dorothy: Yeah. So when we think about this notion of instilling panic in parents, you know, it's the media and other folks—“experts,” if you will (in quotes)—that have sent this message that if your child is being chronically victimized through bullying that they will have suicidal ideation and behaviors. So much so that when parents hear my kid is being bullied, instantly in their mind many of them will say, “Oh, I'm concerned about suicidal ideation.” The reality is that we do know that being chronically victimized is one of a number of risk factors for adolescent suicide. And what we do know though—and this is what the discussion needs to be—is that if a child is being chronically victimized, and maybe doing this in silence not to bother their parents, that what happens is they become depressed, anxious, or withdrawn. Right? Page | 3 And it's that untreated depression or unknown depression, anxiety, that then places them at risk for suicide. So there's not a causation here, [bullying] being kind of one of a multitude of risk factors. But I think the larger discussion that we need to have is the difficulty and challenges that families have accessing mental help. And so that's where the conversation needs to lie in large part. Terry: Excellent. I see. Another misperception is that bullies are young criminals. Dorothy: Yeah. There's also this notion that there's just that one type of kid that engages in bullying. And we, in fact, know that there's a multitude of them. But two really dominate in the research literature. And those are those kids that are what we call “ineffective aggressors”—the Hollywood depiction of the thug bully. And those kids do go on and have risk for having anti‐social personality traits across the lifespan. So certainly those that are “ineffective aggressors,” and again, I put quotes around that because by the time kids enter middle school, say sixth grade, there's a group that emerges that's called the effective aggressor or what we also call “Machiavellian bully,” if you will. Terry: Oh. Okay. Dorothy: And these kids have high social capital, they're popular, they're over‐represented in athletic groups, and they will never come to the attention of the administrator. And so when we think about those really socially skilled kids that engage in these behaviors, we don't have any evidence that they will go on and have adult kinds of criminal records. Terry: Right. Unless you look at the social aspect of the criminology of psychologically harassing people because you're smarter than they are, I guess. That's unfortunate. Dorothy: Right. Terry: But that's kind of what you're saying there and that's how someone could fly below the radar perhaps. Another misperception is that bullies need to be punished. Dorothy: Yeah. I mean I think that we still have school districts that believe that there has to be clear, clear consequences for kids that engage in these behaviors and I often argue with my colleagues about that. I don't disagree with that but that in fact there needs to be clear consequences. I would like these consequences implemented with equity. My concern is if you continue to take the punitive approach then our kids with disabilities, kids in special ed, our ethnic minorities, or our under‐represented groups—let’s just say directly, African American kids—are going to be targeted through these punitive approaches. So I think that we need to take a much more preventative approach. Page | 4 We know that kids who engage in these high rates of behaviors do so in schools where there's a less positive school climate and where the adults are modeling this behavior. So if anyone should be punished it's the administrators and the teachers that are creating a climate. I mean in some ways you're creating a climate where these kids—this behavior is modeled and they're imitating any of the adults that are around them. Terry: I see. The final misperception that you talk about in the lecture is that bullies come from dysfunctional families. Dorothy: Again, there’s this notion that these kids that engage in high rates of bullying are dysfunctional. Right? And we need to understand that there's different types of kids that engage in these behaviors, that they have different motivations, and they're likely to come from a host of families. Terry: Right. Dorothy: We do know that kids—that there is somewhat of an association between bullying and exposure to family conflicts. So if there's a lot of sibling aggression, you're more likely to enact that behavior when you go to school. But there's certainly many kids that engage in these behaviors where the behavior's not modeled. And I always say that in 22 years of presenting, and I'm out there a lot talking to parents, I've had four moms come to me and say that they have raised a child that engaged in high rates of bullying. And if we look at the statistics that 17% of our kids skip through eighth grade, clearly there's some parents out there that have these kids that are engaging in these behaviors and maybe doing it because it's fostered in middle school, it affords them popularity, and it works for them. Terry: In your opening remarks, you say approaching zero bullying is going to take probably a couple decades. I mean, given human nature and bullying behavior, do you think we can essentially eradicate or really minimize bullying in say 20 or 30 years? Dorothy: You know, I think that's hard to know.