Impeachment Inquiry: Fiona Hill and David Holmes

1 1 2 3 4 5 IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY: FIONA HILL AND DAVID HOLMES 6 Thursday, November 21, 2019 7 U.S. House of Representatives, 8 Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, 9 Washington, D.C. 10 11 12 13 The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:05 a.m., in Room 1100, Longworth 14 House Office Building, the Honorable Adam Schiff (chairman of the committee) presiding. 15 Present: Representatives Schiff, Himes, Sewell, Carson, Speier, Quigley, 16 Swalwell, Castro, Heck, Welch, Maloney, Demings, Krishnamoorthi, Nunes, Conaway, 17 Turner, Wenstrup, Stewart, Stefanik, Hurd, Ratcliffe, and Jordan. 18 2 1 2 The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 3 Good morning, everyone. 4 This is the seventh in a series of the public hearings the committee will be holding 5 as part of the House of Representatives' impeachment inquiry. 6 Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at 7 any time. 8 There is a quorum present. We will proceed today in the same fashion as our 9 other hearings. I will make an opening statement. Then Ranking Member Nunes will 10 have the opportunity to make a statement. Then we will turn to our witnesses for their 11 opening statements and then to questions. 12 For audience members, we welcome you and respect your interest in being here. 13 In turn, we ask for your respect as we proceed with today's hearing. It is the intention 14 of the committee to proceed without disruptions. As chairman, I'll take all necessary 15 and appropriate steps to maintain order and ensure that the committee is run in 16 accordance with House rules and House Resolution 660. 17 With that, I now recognize myself to give an opening statement in the 18 impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump, the 45th President of the United States. 19 Yesterday morning, the committee heard from Ambassador Gordon Sondland, the 20 American Ambassador to the European Union, the de facto leader of the Three Amigos, 21 who had regular access to President Donald Trump and pressed the new Ukrainian 22 President, Volodymyr Zelensky, for two investigations Trump believed would help his 23 reelection campaign. 24 The first investigation was of a discredited conspiracy theory that Ukraine, and not 25 Russia, was responsible for interfering in our 2016 election. 3 1 The second investigation was into the political rival Trump apparently feared 2 most, Joe Biden. Trump sought to weaken Biden and to refute the fact that his own 3 election had been helped by a Russian hacking and dumping operation and Russian social 4 media campaign directed by Vladimir Putin. 5 Trump's scheme stood in contrast to the longstanding, bipartisan foreign policy of 6 the United States by undermining military and diplomatic support for a key ally and set 7 back U.S. anticorruption efforts in Ukraine. 8 In conditioning a meeting with Zelensky and then military aid on securing an 9 investigation of his rival, Trump put his personal and political interests above the United 10 States. As Ambassador Sondland would later tell career Foreign Service Officer David 11 Holmes immediately after speaking to the President, Trump did "not give a [expletive]" 12 about Ukraine. He cares about "big stuff" that benefits him, like the "Biden 13 investigation" that Giuliani was pushing. 14 David Holmes is here with us today. He is a Foreign Service officer currently 15 serving as the Political Counselor at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv. 16 Also with us is Dr. Fiona Hill, whose job as the National Security Council Senior 17 Director for European and Russian Affairs encompassed the coordination of U.S. policy 18 towards Ukraine. Dr. Hill left the NSC in July, after more than 2 years in that position. 19 Dr. Hill and Mr. Holmes each provide a unique perspective on issues relating to 20 Ukraine, Dr. Hill from Washington, D.C., and Mr. Holmes from on the ground in Kyiv. 21 In early 2019, Dr. Hill became concerned by the increasing prominence of Rudy 22 Giuliani, the President's personal lawyer, who was, as she has testified, asserting quite 23 frequently on television, in public appearances, that he had been given some authority 24 over matters related to Ukraine. 25 Hill was not alone in her concerns. Her boss, National Security Adviser John 4 1 Bolton, was also paying attention, as were other NSC and State Department officials, 2 including Holmes at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv. 3 Bolton viewed Giuliani as a "hand grenade that is going to blow everybody up" 4 and was powerless to prevent the former mayor from engineering former U.S. 5 Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch's firing in late April or her recall. Holmes was 6 stunned by the intensity and consistency of media attacks on Yovanovitch by name as a 7 U.S. ambassador and the scope of the allegations that were leveled against her. 8 Yovanovitch's dismissal as a result of Giuliani's smear campaign was one of several 9 things that unsettled Dr. Hill. Another was the role of Gordon Sondland, who emerged 10 as a key player in Ukraine policy in May when he was named as part of the U.S. 11 delegation, led by Secretary Rick Perry, to President Zelensky's inauguration. 12 Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman also attended the inauguration and, as 13 Holmes recalls, during a meeting with President Zelensky, took the opportunity to advise 14 the new Ukraine leader to stay out of U.S. domestic politics. 15 Another concern that arose for Dr. Hill around this time was her discovery of a 16 potential NSC back channel on Ukraine. Hill learned that an NSC staff member, who did 17 not work on Ukraine and for her, may have been providing Ukraine-related information to 18 President Trump that Dr. Hill was not made aware of. 19 According to Holmes, following the Zelensky inauguration, Sondland and Perry 20 took a very active and unconventional role in formulating our priorities for the new 21 Zelensky administration and personally reaching out to President Zelensky and his senior 22 team. 23 Sondland's newfound assertiveness also concerned Dr. Hill, who previously had 24 enjoyed a cordial working relationship with the Ambassador. On June 18, 2019, Hill had 25 a blowup with Sondland when he told her that he was in charge of Ukraine policy. 5 1 Dr. Hill testified that Sondland "got testy with me, and I said, 'Who has put you in charge 2 of it?' He said, 'The President.'" 3 On July 10th, Dr. Hill was part of a meeting at the White House with a group of 4 U.S. and Ukrainian officials, including Bolton, Sondland, and Energy Secretary Perry, 5 another of the Three Amigos. The meeting was intended, among other things, to give 6 the Ukrainians an opportunity to convey that they were anxious to set up a meeting, a 7 first meeting, between their new President and President Trump. 8 Sondland interjected to inform the group that, according to White House Chief of 9 Staff Mick Mulvaney, the White House meeting sought by the Ukrainian President with 10 Trump would happen if Ukraine undertook certain investigations. Hearing this, Bolton 11 abruptly ended the meeting. 12 Undeterred, Sondland brought the Ukrainian delegation and the NSC Director for 13 Ukraine, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, downstairs to another part of the White 14 House, where they were later joined by Dr. Hill. In this second meeting, Sondland was 15 more explicit: Ukraine needed to conduct investigations if they were to get a meeting at 16 all. 17 Bolton directed Dr. Hill to report this to NSC Legal Advisor John Eisenberg, telling 18 her, "You go and tell Eisenberg that I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and 19 Mulvaney are cooking up on this, and you go ahead and tell him what you've heard and 20 what I've said." Dr. Hill did so, as did Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, who separately 21 approached the same lawyers with his concerns. 22 On July 18, the day before Dr. Hill left her post at the NSC, Holmes participated in 23 a secure interagency video conference on Ukraine. Towards the end of the meeting, a 24 representative from the Office of Management and Budget announced that the flow of 25 nearly $400 million in security assistance for Ukraine was being held up. The order had 6 1 come from the President and had been conveyed to OMB by Acting White House Chief of 2 Staff Mick Mulvaney without further explanation. 3 Holmes, unaware of the hold prior to the call, was shocked. He thought the 4 suspension of aid was extremely significant, undermining what he had understood to be 5 longstanding U.S. national security goals in Ukraine. 6 One week later, on July 25th, President Trump spoke with President Zelensky by 7 phone. When President Zelensky brought up U.S. military support and noted that 8 Ukraine would like to buy more Javelin anti-tank missiles from the United States, Trump 9 responded by saying, "I would like you to do us a favor, though." 10 Trump then requested that Zelensky investigate the discredited conspiracy theory 11 that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election. Even more ominously, Trump asked 12 Zelensky to look into the Bidens. 13 Neither request had been included in the official talking points for the call 14 prepared by the NSC staff, but both were in Donald Trump's personal interest and the 15 interest of his 2020 reelection campaign.

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