Friday Volume 550 14 September 2012 No. 44

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 14 September 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 541 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 542 House of Commons Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Bill Friday 14 September 2012 Second Reading

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock 9.45 am Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I beg to PRAYERS move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I am presenting this Bill today because I was lucky enough to be drawn fourth in the private Members’ [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] ballot. As is often the case in this place, I discovered that not through any official communication but because Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I beg to move, my inbox was suddenly deluged with e-mails of That the House sit in private. congratulation and my mobile phone and landline started Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163). ringing at the same time. It is good that a reshuffle was The House divided: Ayes 0, Noes 58. not taking place at the time. Division No. 68] [9.34 am It is rare for a Back Bencher to have the opportunity to change the law of the country. I received hundreds of AYES good suggestions—some more realistic than others—and I took my time and thought long and hard before Tellers for the Ayes: making my choice. I chose mental health for three Mr Charles Walker and reasons, the first of which is that it affects so many Dr Thérèse Coffey people. One in four of us will experience a mental health condition in our lifetime, and three in four will NOES see a member of our immediate family experience such Alexander, Heidi Hughes, rh Simon a condition. Those numbers have been increasing, and Andrew, Stuart Jenkin, Mr Bernard will continue to do so, because although the physical Baker, Norman Jones, Mr Kevan conditions in which we live and work have improved Barclay, Stephen Khan, rh Sadiq our lives are busier and more stressful. The World Barker, rh Gregory Lee, Dr Phillip Health Organisation estimates that by 2030 more people Begg, Dame Anne Lewis, Dr Julian will be affected by depression than by any other health Benn, rh Hilary Long, Naomi condition. Berger, Luciana McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Blenkinsop, Tom McVey, Esther Secondly, beyond those headline figures I have seen Boles, Nick Mordaunt, Penny at first hand how people struggle with mental ill health, Bone, Mr Peter Nuttall, Mr David and how hard they often find discussing it, even with Brennan, Kevin Ottaway, Richard those to whom they are close. Two of my closest personal Buckland, Mr Robert Phillips, Stephen friends suffer from mental health conditions, as do two Carmichael, Neil Pugh, John former teachers with whom I have kept in touch. Sadly, Clark, rh Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob both had to retire early, thereby depriving other young Colvile, Oliver Rudd, Amber people of their excellent tuition. My predecessor as Crabb, Stephen Smith, rh Mr Andrew Member of Parliament for Croydon Central, Andrew Creasy, Stella Smith, Miss Chloe Cunningham, Mr Jim Pelling, had to take leave of absence from this House in Soubry, Anna early 2008, although crucially in terms of what we are Davies, Philip Spellar, rh Mr John discussing he was able to return to work and do a good Duncan, rh Mr Alan Stewart, Iain job for his constituents. Fitzpatrick, Jim Tami, Mark Flynn, Paul Timpson, Mr Edward Since I became a Member of this House, numerous Francois, rh Mr Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh constituents with mental health conditions have come Goodman, Helen Wollaston, Dr Sarah to me for help—I imagine that all hon. Members currently Gyimah, Mr Sam Wright, Jeremy have constituents who are distressed and struggling Hands, Greg Young, rh Sir George with Atos work capability assessments. Two specific Harris, Mr Tom cases stick in my mind. The first was a man who came Heath, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Anne Milton and to my surgery because he had lost his job and was at Howarth, Mr Gerald Nicky Morgan risk of losing his home. He broke down in tears in the middle of the appointment, and openly discussed committing suicide. The second was a resident of a Question accordingly negatived. south London YMCA property in my constituency who had witnessed someone committing suicide. He went to his GP for help and was effectively told to get over it. He then suffered a breakdown, lost his job and his marriage, and ended up sleeping on a park bench. Anything we can do—even in a small way—to help people suffering with such conditions must be good. The third reason I chose mental health was that it has a particularly passionate advocate in the form of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), 543 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 544 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Gavin Barwell] There is also a grave danger that the law will deter Members from admitting to having a mental health who is sitting in front of me. I hope that he will speak condition and from seeking treatment, which would be later in the debate so that hon. Members who have not a tragedy. Ludicrously, the law is harsher than that relating heard him discuss the issue will see that passion for to MPs who are sent to prison, which does not take themselves. effect unless an MP is sentenced to more than a year. My Bill’s purpose is simple: to tackle the last legal Finally, an MP who lacks mental capacity, as defined form of discrimination in our society. Over the course by the Mental Capacity Act 2005, can be detained for of my adult life we have made significant progress in up to 12 months and not lose their seat. The law is tackling racism, sexism and homophobia. Parliament therefore also a nonsense. It has never been used in its changed the law and sent a clear signal, and, although current form, but back in 1916, Dr Charles Leach MP things are still far from perfect, attitudes have changed. was removed from his seat using the provisions of To our shame, however, the law still discriminates against predecessor legislation, the Lunacy (Vacating Seats) those with a mental health condition. A Member of Act 1886. Parliament or company director can be removed from As you will know, Mr Speaker, in January 2010, the their job because of mental ill health, even if they go on Speaker’s Conference on parliamentary representation to make a full recovery, and many people who are recommended that the law should be changed. Clearly, perfectly capable of performing jury service are ineligible there is a debate to be had on what should happen if an to do so. As it stands, the law sends out a clear message MP is unable to perform their role for an extended that if someone has a mental health condition, their period. The Speaker’s Conference recommended that contribution to public life is not welcome, and that is an the House invite an appropriate Select Committee to affront to a decent, civilised society. undertake an inquiry. In the meantime, my contention The Labour party deserves credit for its legislation to is very simple: the current law is both discriminatory tackle other forms of discrimination: the Sex Discrimination and an ass, and we should put that right while we Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Civil consider the wider issue. Partnership Act 2004. The Conservative party initially No less an authority than “Parker’s Law and Conduct lagged behind on those issues, but it can be proud of the of Elections” says that, as well as statute, there is Disability Discrimination Act 1995, and I hope that the common law that coalition Government will pass legislation to tackle this “idiots are disqualified for election to Parliament”, remaining form of discrimination against those with which may come as news to some of our constituents. mental ill health. Nevertheless, to guard against the unlikely event that The belief that people should be treated as individuals the courts would interpret that as a reference to those and judged on their merits, and that they should not with mental health conditions, clause 1(2) of the Bill face stigma and discrimination, is common to all abolishes any such common law. mainstream parties. I believe that, if the Bill gains Royal The second aim of Lord Stevenson’s Bill was to Assent, we will look back in a few years’ time and be amend school governance regulations, so that people amazed that it took until 2012 to do it. detained under the Mental Health Acts would no longer be disqualified from holding office as school governors. The Bill is supported by the Royal College of Clearly, someone who is detained is unable to attend Psychiatrists, Mind and Rethink Mental Illness. I thank governors’ meetings, but that may be for only a short them, my assistant Mario Creatura and the Public Bill time, and there is no reason that they should not resume Office for all their help. The provisions were originally their role once they are able to do so. introduced in the other place by Lord Stevenson of Coddenham in the previous Session. He—not I—deserves The third aim was to amend the Juries Act 1974, the credit for raising the issue. which applies only to England and Wales, to reduce significantly and better to define who is ineligible for Lord Stevenson’s Bill had four clear aims, the first of jury service. Currently, as many hon. Members will which was to repeal section 141 of the Mental Health know, the Act says that mentally disordered persons are Act 1983, under which a Member of Parliament—including ineligible. The definition of a mentally disordered person Members of the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh and is extremely wide and includes people who manage their Northern Ireland Assemblies—automatically loses their mental health condition through a prescription from seat if they are detained under the Act for more than their general practitioner or counselling from a psychiatrist. six months. There is no equivalent provision for peers, For example, a woman suffering from post-natal depression neither is there an equivalent provision if an MP suffers who is prescribed anti-depressants would—ludicrously—be from a physical illness that affects their ability to perform barred from serving on a jury.Theoretically, that eliminates their role. The law, therefore, is clearly discriminatory. It all sorts of people who would make excellent jurors. In stigmatises those with mental health conditions and practice, the definition is so wide many people who gives the false impression that people cannot recover probably should tick the box do not do so, perhaps from such conditions. including some who genuinely should not be jurors. A In the Law Society’s opinion, the law may well breach person on trial has a right to be confident that the jury the UN convention of the rights of persons with disabilities, is of sound mind. The Bill would better define who which the UK ratified in 2009. Article 29 of the convention should be ineligible broadly in line with the current law states that Governments should ensure in Scotland, thus making it much more likely that such people would identify themselves correctly. “that persons with disabilities can effectively and fully participate in political and public life on an equal basis with others, directly The final aim of the Bill is to amend the Companies or through freely chosen representatives, including the right and (Model Articles) Regulations 2008, so that someone no opportunity for persons with disabilities to vote and be elected”. longer ceases to be a director of a public or private 545 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 546 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill company purely because of their mental health. All civic duty. It basically implies that I have nothing to offer society companies are required by statute to have articles of because I have a mental health condition, without any regard to association. Model articles operate when a company how I am actually functioning now. This is totally outrageous”. has failed to draw up its own. Many companies incorporate I could not agree more. them into their articles. The model articles include Secondly, if the Bill is passed, companies, our courts a provision that someone ceases to be a director if a and Parliament will benefit directly from the involvement registered medical practitioner who is treating them of more people with experience of mental health conditions. gives a written opinion to the company stating that they The recent Backbench Business Committee debate on have become physically or mentally incapable of acting mental health, which was introduced by my hon. Friend as a director and remain so for more than three months—in the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), who other words, the correct test of capacity. However, the now thankfully sits on the Front Bench, was illuminated articles also include a totally unnecessary, stigmatising in particular by the contributions of my hon. Friend the provision relating solely to mental health, which my Bill Member for Broxbourne and the hon. Member for would remove. North Durham (Mr Jones), both of whom I am glad to The Government have already dealt with one of see in the Chamber today. those aims. The School Governance (England) Thirdly, and most importantly, passing the Bill will (Amendment) Regulations 2012 came into force on send a clear message that discrimination is wrong and 17 March and rightly set the disqualification test for that people have a right to be judged as individuals, not school governors as failure to attend meetings for a stigmatised or discriminated against. period of six months without consent from the governing body. That puts the onus on the local governing body to If anyone doubts the extent of the problem, I would make decisions on whether someone is capable of point them to last September’s excellent Time to Change continuing their duties. The Government recently confirmed campaign, run by Mind and Rethink Mental Illness, that they would support the other measures in Lord which surveyed 2,700 people with mental health conditions. Stevenson’s Bill, subject to some small changes to the Eighty per cent. said that they had experienced provisions relating to jury service, to which I have discrimination, two thirds were too scared to tell their agreed. employer about their condition, 62% were too scared to tell their friends and, worst of all, more than one third I hope my hon. Friend the Minister does not mind if were too scared to seek professional help. I pay tribute to her predecessor, who is now the Minister for Immigration, who first raised these issues when the Ensuring that fewer people experience stigma and Conservative party was in opposition and who played a discrimination is rightly one of the key objectives of the key role in securing Government support for the Bill. I Government’s mental health strategy, “No Health without thank the Deputy Prime Minister—he cannot be in the Mental Health”. As a Conservative, I believe that changing House today—who has a long-standing interest in these the law does not change society over night, but it does issues and who has been vocal in his support for the send a clear signal that this Parliament believes that Bill. I also thank civil servants in the Cabinet Office for having a mental health condition is nothing to be ashamed their help with the detailed drafting and explanatory of or to keep secret. It is high time that we dragged the notes. Finally, before this turns into an Oscar acceptance law of the land into the 21st century, and I humbly ask speech, I thank the official Opposition for their support, hon. Members to support the Bill. and in particular the shadow Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who has 10.1 am already distinguished himself this week in relation to the Hillsborough panel, and whose passion for health Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I rise—of issues is self-evident. I thank all hon. Members who course I rise—to speak very much in support of the Bill, have taken time away from their constituency duties to which seeks to repeal provisions that are a throwback to be in the House today to support the measure. a time when mental illness was hidden away and not I shall end with three simple contentions. First, the dealt with. I will confine my remarks mostly to section 141 law as it stands sends an appalling message to people of the Mental Health Act 1983, in my role as vice-chair with mental health conditions. Charlotte was diagnosed of the Speaker’s Conference, but I support all the with depression and clinical anxiety in 2003. In 2008, provisions in the Bill. she received a summons to undertake jury service. At As the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin the time, she was working as a probation officer and Barwell) pointed out, the Speaker’s Conference strongly therefore had extensive experience of both magistrates recommended that section 141 be repealed. With your and Crown courts. She declared her condition and indulgence, Mr Speaker, I will read the relevant part explained that she had not seen a psychiatrist for four from the extended summary of the Speaker’s Conference years and was no longer seeing her GP, and that she was report. It is headed, “Attitudes to mental illness and the merely picking up repeat prescriptions once every three disqualification of MPs”, and it reads: months. She received a brief message saying she was “Society’s response to those who experience mental illness can unsuitable for jury service. She says: discourage such people from putting themselves forward as candidates “I felt angry and disappointed...I was very much well enough for Parliament. We heard that section 141 of the Mental Health to cope...and my GP would have been happy to confirm this”. Act 1983 presents particular problems for this community.Section 141 Angela was told she was ineligible for jury service in provides that a Member could lose his or her seat in Parliament if detained under the Mental Health Act for a period of six months 2009 because she sees her doctor three times a year for or more. The provision has never been used. There are arguments depression. She says: both for and against section 141. It may be said that the reason “in my early days of mental illness, I would not have been able to for this law is not the illness itself but the detention of the sit on a jury. Now I have recovered and gone back to work in Member by law, and the effects this detention may have upon the research at a university. This blanket ban means that I can’t do my Member’s ability to work for his or her constituents effectively. 547 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 548 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Dame Anne Begg] Nobody asks potential candidates, “By the way, are there any health problems we should know about?” On the other hand, the law is not consistent or logical in its That would be unacceptable in the selection process. I treatment of various types of illness or disorder. If a Member understand, then, why it would be difficult for someone suffers from serious physical illness—say a stroke—that can leave who is new and does not know how it will be taken to constituents effectively un-represented in much the same way as if tell the world that they have had—they might be perfectly a Member has a serious mental disorder. Yet there is no parallel provision to section 141 for cases of physical illness or impairment. all right now—an episode of depression, post-natal Many people told us that section 141 wrongly suggests that depression or whatever. There is always the nagging mental illness is in some way fundamentally different in its effects suspicion that perhaps their opponents or local press from physical illness. The House, through its medical services, can might use it to their detriment. provide care and assistance for those with mental illness, just as it can for those with physical illness. We believe that section 141 of There were probably people in my constituency in the 1983 Mental Health Act should be repealed as soon as 1997 who did not vote for me—surprisingly enough practicable. There should be a review to examine whether alternative some people did not vote for me. Actually about 60% of measures should be taken to protect the interests of constituents, them did not! But some did not vote for me because and the House, when a Member becomes seriously physically or they thought I could not manage. While out canvassing, mentally ill.” one of my campaigners knocked on the door of someone I am truly grateful that section 141 does not apply to who said, “Oh, I won’t be voting for her, because I don’t people with physical disabilities, because, as you know see how she’ll manage.” My campaigner said, “Well, if Mr Speaker, after a recent accident I was away from the you met her, you’d realise that that’s not the case.” But Chamber for six months. Had this provision applied to the man replied, “Oh no” and shut the door. Of course, me, I would have been asked to step down as an MP, but when I heard about this, I went straight up and knocked thanks to your indulgence, and that of the House and on the door, but he did not come to the door. I am fairly my constituents, I was able to recover and return these sure that he still did not vote for me. past two weeks the House has been sitting. Interestingly, In 1997, some people will have had a niggling doubt I do not think my constituents necessarily felt that they at the back of their mind about whether someone with were being disadvantaged, because obviously an MP my level of disability could manage. In elections since, has lots of other things to do. Even someone with many people still have not voted for me, but now it is mental health problems can answer e-mails and direct because they do not like my politics—and that is as it their staff and casework. So it is rare for someone to be should be. People should base their decisions on the completely out of the loop. individual’s ability and on the thing that divides us in Section 141 singles out mental health as a particular the House, and that is our approach to certain policies. problem, but I believe that it misunderstands the whole The second reason section 141 has acted as a barrier nature of mental health. The Speaker’s Conference is that anyone who thinks they could be a good MP found that the provision created two main barriers. might be reluctant to come forward. One of the problems First, it might deter anyone elected from disclosing and was that they could not see anyone in this place who so drive the issue of mental health underground. Secondly, had any kind of mental health issue—no one had people thinking of becoming or aspiring to be an MP shown this “weakness”. However, we know that this is who have a history of mental health problems might simply not the case, which gives the lie to the idea that not put themselves forward, fearing the consequences if MPs do not have mental health problems. they did. If we look back to history, we remember people In the past, Members have not disclosed. That was so saying that a deaf person could not be an MP. “How until the recent debate when the hon. Member for could they possibly hear the debates and participate in Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and my hon. Friend the Member them?” But along came Jack Ashley. Then people said, for North Durham (Mr Jones) spoke bravely and openly “Well, somebody who’s blind certainly couldn’t be an about the issues that have affected them. No one can MP. How could they read all the papers and see the dispute that they are, and have been, very effective MPs, non-verbal things that happen in the Chamber? How and their experience has actually made them better could they manage?” Along came my right hon. Friend MPs, because often they can better understand the the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough issues affecting many of their constituents. It also shows (Mr Blunkett). Then people said, “Well we can’t have that mental health can be an issue for anyone anywhere, somebody with cerebral palsy being an MP, because if from all walks of life, at any time. It does not necessarily they had a speech impediment, you wouldn’t be able to have to be permanent either. Like with any chronic understand them when they spoke.” Along came the condition, it is how someone adapts and learns to live hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul with the condition that makes them able to participate Maynard). And then, of course, they said that somebody in society. who was mobility impaired would not have the stamina and the strength to get around in a wheelchair, including Non-disclosure was never a problem for me when I getting around this Victorian mausoleum, never mind was standing for election—the wheelchair was a bit of a anywhere else. Modesty forbids me from saying who giveaway—so I do not know what it would be like if I could have come along to dispute that. had a hidden disability, whether physical or whatever. In the run-up to the 1997 election, would I have said to On each of those occasions, the House of Commons— the electors and political parties, “By the way, I’ve got indeed, the Houses of Parliament—adjusted. I think this hidden health problem”? I do not think so. So I can Jack Ashley and my right hon. Friend would say that it understand why people with a history of mental health was a bit of a struggle in the early days. However, in problems might not want people to know about it—after each case the House authorities managed the make the all, it is private, it is their health record. necessary adjustments—as is right and proper—to allow 549 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 550 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill all of us with these various disabilities to participate woman or the gentleman doing the interview, who would fully in the work of the House of Commons; and so it say, “My child has mental health problems. Thank you should be for people who might have problems with for giving him”—or her—“a voice.” their mental health. For years we felt that the media were not on our page. The Speaker’s Conference found that section 141 of I think, in fact, the media were on our page, but did not the 1983 Act had erected an extra barrier, which was know what to do because, mistakenly, they felt that the that MPs who were perhaps experiencing stress and public were frightened about people with mental health falling into a spiral of depression would not seek help problems. The media played up to that fear in the immediately. Although the section had never been used, headlines, everybody nervously laughing along to the its mere presence on the statute book was enough to ridicule that was directed towards people suffering with make MPs who might have sought help at an early an illness. I think the press now realise that many of stage—and who might thereby not have deteriorated as their readers and viewers were made deeply uncomfortable far as they did—reluctant to seek that help. Of course, by that approach, and that for the last 20 years they got the irony is that if someone does not seek appropriate it wrong. What we are seeing is a sea change in the help at the earliest stage, the problem can deteriorate to reporting of mental health problems. There is still some the point where it is more likely that that kind of legal distance to go, but things are improving, and they are provision could be invoked. That was a particular problem improving quickly. we looked at. What my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central Parliament has to set an example. We have to reflect (Gavin Barwell) is doing today and what he is going to life outside this place if we are going to be able to do over the next few months will probably be his most legislate for that life. We need people with all sorts of important achievement in political life. He will find it experience. The presence of section 141 is a barrier to difficult to make more of a difference than he is going those who may have had mental health problems in the to make over the course of this year and the beginning past or who may still be grappling with them, when of next. I am sure he will go on to hold great office—no those individuals should be welcomed into this place doubt he will be a Secretary of State and perhaps go with open arms, because their experience is valuable. beyond—but what he is now doing is so important that This House must reflect all of society. If it does not, we it is unlikely that he will ever be able to top it. are a lot less effective and we will therefore not make I would also like to thank my colleagues in the good legislation. Chamber today, because they are at the forefront of changing views and changing minds. They are to be celebrated, both in this House and in their constituencies. 10.13 am The two hon. Friends on either side of me today—my Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Thank you hon. Friends the Members for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) very much for calling me, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to and for Bracknell (Dr Lee)—spoke movingly and openly follow the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame about their experiences, and when they did so, they had Anne Begg), who gave a simply fantastic speech. been in this House for little more than two years. I would not have had the bravery to do that after two I have spoken frequently about mental health over years in this House, so I say this to them. I salute you the last six years, often supported by my hon. Friend for your honesty and integrity. No doubt your constituents the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). It will not recognise what you did that day in June. come as a surprise to you, Mr Speaker, to learn that I I am going on a little and I did not want to go on too have very little left to say on the subject. I would say, much, so I shall bring my few words to an end. I would however, that I am simply delighted at what is happening like first, however, to pay tribute to Lord Stevenson of today. We serve in a simply fantastic Parliament. We Coddenham. I have known him for about two and a have fabulous colleagues here and they are doing great half years now, and his energy, enthusiasm and dynamism things in the area of mental health. Today’s Bill will are incredible. Indeed, I think I do my hon. Friend the provide so much hope and reassurance to many millions Member for Croydon Central no disservice by saying of people out there. They may not be watching the that if it were not for Lord Stevenson’s enthusiasm for Chamber—I imagine only 3 million or 4 million are this Bill and his sheer determination, I doubt we would watching this morning’s debate—but over time we will be here today. I would also like to thank—without change the view that people have of mental health naming them—the many civil servants who have promoted problems. the Bill in their Departments. They, too, are to be On the other side of the Chamber,I see the hon. lauded for their contribution. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who, with me, That is really all I have to say. There are other in June admitted to his own mental health problems. I discriminations out there that people with mental health do not think he was prepared—I certainly was not—for problems continue to face—for example, a lack of advocacy the tsunami of interest that that created. The media when they are in crisis. That needs to be addressed. were calling us almost hourly, asking for interviews and How we look after people in detention and the rights we asking us to comment on what we had said. What was give people in detention also need to be looked at. Then totally overwhelming was sitting in a studio waiting to there are Criminal Records Bureau disclosures, where, be interviewed and having the people doing the make-up under the question: “Is there any other relevant say, “My husband”—or, “My son,” or, “My father,”— information?”, chief constables will too often write, “suffers from mental health problems. Thank you.” “We are aware that this individual was detained under Then we would go through to the next level and meet the Mental Health Act, but we don’t know whether they the producer, who would quietly say, “I’ve suffered from are a danger to children or adults. We don’t believe that mental health problems for a number of years. Thank they are.” All too often that is damning to the individual, you for giving me a voice.” Then there would be the so we need to look at that, too. 551 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 552 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Mr Charles Walker] actually does has not changed since 1886. Earlier, in July 1849, the then Member for Thirsk, John Bell, was In the main, however, today is a day of celebration. It considered, in the language of the day, to be a lunatic. is a great day, and I am just so pleased to serve in such a The House of Commons set up a body entitled the wonderful national Parliament. We are rightly proud—and Commission of Lunacy, which concluded that he was, have the right to be proud—of what we are doing today. in its word, a “lunatic”. He was telling his constituents It is fabulous to be here. It is possibly the greatest day of and friends that he was a bird, and that he could fly my life. My wife and my three children may take exception faster than a bird because he oiled his wings. The to that, but it is certainly one of the greatest days of my commission found him to be a lunatic, but could do life. Finally, I say this to my hon. Friend the Member nothing about it. Sadly, he died in 1851. for Croydon Central. You are doing a fabulous thing. The Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Act 1886 has already Thank you so much for taking this Bill forward. been mentioned. The very good House of Commons Library found me a copy of it, so that I could see how 10.19 am the law differed from the present legislation. Apart from the use of language, nothing very much has changed. If Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): It is a pleasure someone becomes aware of a Member of Parliament to follow the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). being of unsound mind, they are still required to report I shall start by declaring two interests. First, I am the it to the Speaker. That is a legal obligation under the president of the Chester-le-Street branch of Mind in 1886 Act, whose provisions require magistrates or other my constituency. Secondly, I have suffered in the past persons in whose care the Member might be placed, from depression and still occasionally have what I call including those in charge of lunatic asylums or other my “black dog” days, although I now know how to deal areas where a lunatic might reside, to certify the committal with them, thanks to the help that I have received over or detention of the Member to the Speaker. the years. There is some great language in the 1886 Act. In I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon Central those days, the Speaker had to submit a certificate (Gavin Barwell) on introducing the Bill. I also “if the place of such reception, committal, or detention is in congratulate—as did the hon. Member for Broxbourne— England, to the Commissioners in Lunacy in England; if such Lord Stevenson of Coddenham on his tireless work in place is in Scotland, to the Board of Commissioners in Lunacy in this area. I look forward to the hon. Member for Scotland; and if such place is in Ireland, to the Inspectors of Croydon Central joining an exclusive club, of which I Lunatic Asylums in Ireland.” am a member, when the Bill becomes an Act. It is A report had to be drawn up on the condition of the difficult for a Back-Bench Member to get a Bill enacted Member of Parliament in question. If necessary, after into law, and they need to do a great deal of work, not six months another report had to be drawn up. If the only on the Bill’s preparation but on ensuring that they individual was found, in the language of the day, still to are on top of all the issues. Back Benchers do not have be a lunatic, the Speaker would then make the seat an army of civil servants to help them. When I introduced vacant and issue a warrant for a by-election. There was my Bill, which became the Christmas Day (Trading) no right of appeal. Act 2004, I would certainly have struggled without the I then looked at the Mental Health Act 1959, hoping help of my dedicated researcher. that attitudes might have become a bit more progressive and that things might have changed. The basis of process Like the hon. Member for Broxbourne, I have had a was exactly the same, however. The only things that had very positive experience since I spoke on 14 June about changed were the language and the people who needed my mental illness. I have received thousands of e-mails, to commission the report. In the 1959 Act, the Member letters and other communications from people I know was to be visited and examined and from complete strangers from all walks of life. I have found it quite a humbling experience. Actually, I “where the member is to be visited in England and Wales or in Northern Ireland, by the President of the Royal College of suspected all along that I might get such a response. Physicians of London”— In the lead-up to today’s debate, I have also received a and lot of supportive letters and e-mails. I have also been “in Scotland, by the President of the Royal College of Physicians urging other people to support this worthwhile Bill. of Edinburgh and the President of the Royal College of Physicians Earlier in the week, however, I received a communication and Surgeons of Glasgow, acting jointly”. from—I shall try to use my language carefully—an So nothing had changed apart from the people who ill-informed individual who asked, “Why does this matter? needed to draw up the reports. There was still no right Aren’t you just trying to make an exception for MPs? of appeal against their decisions, and the Member Why should they be different?” As the hon. Member for could still be disqualified if they were found still to be of Croydon Central and my hon. Friend the Member for unsound mind after six months. Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) have already pointed out, this is not just about Members of Parliament. This I felt sure that the situation would have radically is about trying to lift the stigma that, unfortunately, changed by 1983, but the Mental Health Act of that even in 2012, still attaches to mental health, and about year retains the basis of the 1886 legislation. The procedure helping people to come forward to get the support that still involves the need to report Members who are considered they need. to be of unsound mind, as well as the production of a report, and a further report after six months. The only When I was thinking about what I was going to say change is that, under section 141(3): today, I decided to look back at the history of the “The registered medical practitioners…shall be appointed by legislation on this issue. The thing that saddened me is the President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and shall be that it has not changed a great deal in 126 years. The use practitioners appearing to the President to have special experience of language might be different but what the legislation in the diagnosis or treatment of mental disorders.” 553 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 554 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill We therefore still have on the statute book a law that Mr Jones: I am very grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s dates back to 1886. The only change since that time intervention. I would like to give a plug for my right relates to the people who draw up the reports for the hon. Friend Lord Clark of Windermere, who is another Speaker on whether they consider the Member to be former Member for Colne Valley. If anyone wants to suffering from a mental disorder. There is still no right read a good book on Victor Grayson, I would recommend of appeal, although there would be in most tribunals. It Lord Clark’s book—a very interesting read. is therefore important that this Bill should be passed As to the need for changing the legislation if it has through Parliament, and I welcome the support for it been used only once, as my hon. Friend the Member for from the Government and those on the Opposition Aberdeen South said, it is necessary because it stigmatises Front Bench. people suffering with their mental health. There is no such provision for people with physical disabilities. It is The 1983 Act has never been used in relation to a possible for an MP to have a stroke or to be in a coma, Member of Parliament, but section 141 is still on the yet there is no mechanism for removing such an MP statute book. Other countries around the world, including from this House. Some Members may recall the vote of former eastern bloc countries, use mental health to confidence in 1979. If the stories that go around are to silence opposition. Sadly, in Russia and other parts of be believed, some individuals who voted in it were the former Soviet Union, that is still happening today. brought into Palace Yard when they were allegedly not We have a piece of legislation on our statute book that compos mentis—and died shortly afterwards. Their could be used for that purpose and, if we are to set an alleged condition was no hindrance to them voting. example to the rest of the world, it is right that we should pass this Bill. Is this important for MPs? Yes, it is. Over the last few months, I have received e-mails from young people. One John Bell died before any legislation was introduced, moving one was from a Cambridge graduate who was and he therefore could not be disqualified. The 1886 going through a difficult depression. She said that she Act has been used for this purpose only once. Charles had always wanted to enter politics and be a local Leach was elected to represent Colne Valley in West councillor—I have to say that I questioned her mental Yorkshire in 1910, and disqualified in 1916. Interestingly, health because she was a Conservative—and that what in the 1910 election, he defeated Victor Grayson. Anyone the hon. Member for Broxbourne and I had said had who knows the history of that period will know that given her some hope that people could still enter public Victor Grayson disappeared, and some might argue life without any stigma over their mental health. What that he was another individual who suffered from some we are doing under current legislation is write off an type of mental illness. entire group of people who can make perfectly valid contributions to society in whatever role they play. From what I have read about this former Member for Another e-mail I received was from a lawyer. She said Colne Valley, he was a quite independent minded and that she had suffered from depression in the past and progressive individual. He started as a member of the was still on medication, yet she practised every week in Independent Labour party, but his mental health courts in Leeds. As she said, under the present legislation, deteriorated—obviously during a period in which the she can practise law, but she cannot be a juror. That Liberals were in office—in 1910, and he then stood for makes complete nonsense of the law. As we see from Colne Valley. He was also a Methodist preacher and examples like this, it is important to raise the wider issue he was appointed as a chaplain to the armed forces. of how we de-stigmatise mental health. During the first world war, he had to visit in London This is the second occasion in only a matter of hospitals those who had been injured on the western months on which we have debated mental health in this front. His mental health clearly deteriorated over time. Chamber. That is important because, as others have He was not, of course, sectioned in those days, but he said, we are seen to be in touch with what is going on in was a committed to what was the aptly named the wider community. Since I spoke on 14 June—this Northumberland house, which was a private lunatic applies to the hon. Member for Broxbourne, too—I asylum in north London, under the powers of the 1886 have been surprised by the number of people I meet Act. Sadly, he died in 1919, aged 72. Some people say who say, on the quiet, that they or people close to them that if the legislation has been used only once, what is have suffered from mental illness. I said it on 14 June its purpose? and I will say it again—there are no barriers to mental Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Speaking as health issues; mental illness can affect anyone. the Member now representing Colne Valley, I want to Following the 14 June, three individuals—I will not praise my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central mention them by name—contacted me, and reinforced (Gavin Barwell). I also want to praise the hon. Member the point about there being no barriers. The first was a for North Durham (Mr Jones), too, for giving way and senior chief executive of a large council in the north, for the way in which both he and my hon. Friend the who I have known for many years. She is a very strong Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) have spoken so individual, probably the last person anyone would think honestly about their own mental health issues. Today is had suffered from mental illness. Perhaps the most the first day I have ever attended debates on private remarkable was a retired general with whom I worked Members’ Bills; I have been inspired to do so on this when I was the Minister for veterans in the Ministry of important issue. Someone very close to me is tackling Defence. Again, he is the last person anyone would mental health issues, so it is an emotional day for me as think had suffered from depression, but he had and, as well. Because the hon. Member for North Durham he said, he still does in his retirement. Most of his peers mentioned Colne Valley, I thought I would stand up to would have been quite surprised if they knew this. The praise him and others who have talked so passionately third individual is a very good friend of mine who is a and emotionally about this important issue. senior executive in a well-known plc at board level. No 555 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 556 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Mr Kevan Jones] choosing to present such an important Bill. It sends a message about recovery: that if a person has experienced one passing him on the street, watching him speak on a mental health problem in the past, that does not make television or reflecting on his competent manner in the person unpredictable or dangerous, and that there running his large international business would think should be no barrier to his or her full participation in that he had suffered from severe depression. Those public life or, indeed, any part of life. However, I think examples show that there are no barriers to mental we also need to issue a call to arms. If we are to make health problems; they can affect everyone. people more confident about coming forward and seeking The hon. Member for Croydon Central paid tribute help at an early stage—confident that they will not be to Rethink Mental Illness and the Time for Change discriminated against later in life—we must ensure that campaign, which is making a real difference. The Royal primary care in particular is ready for them: that people College of Psychiatrists should also be mentioned as who present their doctors with a mental health problem well as Mind, which has done much in recent work to are taken seriously, and are given the support and help raise awareness. The clear message that needs to go out they need. is that this is something we need to talk about. It is no This has been a big week for mental health in Parliament. good thinking that these issues affect only a small We have seen the launch of the Government’s strategy percentage of the population; it affects many. on suicide prevention as part of their overall mental I welcome the well-known individuals who have spoken health strategy, and we should pay tribute to that very out about their own mental health. Alastair Campbell effective strategy, which, again, sends a positive message. has been instrumental in the Time for Change campaign, We should remind GPs, when thinking about suicide along with Ruby Wax and Stephen Fry. It is important and depression, to ask their patients, “Are you depressed?”, that they have spoken out; they are successful people, to take the issue seriously and ask patients specifically perhaps even role models, when it comes to talking whether they have had any suicidal thoughts, and then about this issue. I congratulate Channel 4 on its season to deliver an effective treatment for them. a few weeks ago, when an entire week featured programmes To anyone following this debate, I would say the same about mental health and people who suffered from as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) mental illness. It showed again the variety of individuals and the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones): who can suffer from it. “You will find that people will feel positive about you Another clear message I want to send out today is and will encourage you, so do have the confidence to that mental illness is no barrier to making a productive seek help and tell your friends; and when you have contribution to life—whether it be in public life, family recovered, make sure that you tell other people that you life or in the local community. The more we talk about have recovered, and support them so that they too can the issue, the better. It will take time to erase the stigma seek help.” that is still there around mental illness, but I think we are making great strides and that this Bill is an important 10.41 am step forwards. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is a great In closing, I say again that we should talk about this pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for issue more—in this place and elsewhere. I am not going Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and the hon. Member for North to say to individuals in this Chamber, or anywhere else, Durham (Mr Jones), both of whom, in their own way, who have suffered from mental illness that they should spoke movingly—and, in the case of my hon. Friend, speak about it if they do not feel comfortable doing so, from personal experience—about the issue of mental as it is an entirely personal decision. I am not pointing health. fingers and saying that people should do this. I leave Let me begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the affected individuals out there today with this thought—one Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) on using with which I know the hon. Member for Broxbourne his success in the ballot so wisely. I consider this to be agrees. Since I spoke out—it was not an easy thing to the correct use of a private Member’s Bill: the Bill is do; but, in hindsight, the right thing to do—I have been deregulatory, in that it removes rather than adds to the overwhelmed by the support I have received not just burden of regulation; as we have seen this morning, it from colleagues throughout the House but from people has attracted wide cross-party support; and, significantly, elsewhere. To any people sitting at home watching today’s it does not add to public expenditure. debate who are suffering from the loneliness, agonies Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes, I have and dark places to which depression takes them, I say no medical experience, but I have been involved in that they are likely to be surprised at the response they mental health issues from a legal perspective. Although would get—from colleagues, families and friends—if I had not claimed to have special expertise in mental they opened up about their problems. I understand that health law, many of my clients presented me with issues this is difficult to do when people are in the depths of that had a mental health aspect, such as dementia or depression, which is a very private thing. As my hon. bipolar disorder. It can happen in the twinkling of an Friend the Member for Aberdeen South said, people eye. I have known clients, and people representing those often feel ashamed, but they should not be afraid and clients, who at one moment had no idea they would be they should talk about it. If they opened up, I think afflicted with a mental health problem, and a few moments they would be very surprised at the support they would later, as a result of an accident, were very seriously receive from a lot of people. afflicted. The condition can manifest itself in many 10.40 am ways. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Today’s debate The Bill is sensible on two levels. First, it removes sends a very powerful message, and I congratulate the discrimination from specific areas of law: section 141 of hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) on the Mental Health Act 1983, which applies to Members 557 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 558 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill of Parliament, and the legislation and regulations applying message that there can be no recovery. I know, and I am to jurors and company directors. It is simply not appropriate, sure that every other Member knows, that that is simply in the 21st century, for any part of our body of law to not the case. It must be right for mental illness to be employ the terms “idiot” and “lunatic”. dealt with, and regarded, in the same way as other categories of illness. There is absolutely no justification Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Let me endorse for the continued existence of specific discrimination what the hon. Gentleman and others have said about against people who have, or have had, mental health the enormous value of the Bill, and join others in issues. congratulating the hon. Member for Croydon Central The second strand of the Bill is perhaps even more (Gavin Barwell) on introducing it. important, because it sends the wider message that we Does the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) will tackle the stigma which, sadly, is often still attached agree that the barring of those various categories is to mental health. This Bill will give enormous particularly invidious because they are all positions of encouragement to those struggling to overcome the considerable public responsibility? It sends the signal stigma of mental health problems. that there are second-class citizens when it comes to the I particularly want to pay tribute to the work of the ability to act responsibly. We are taking a huge step Bury Involvement Group in Mental Health in my forward today in sending the signal that there should no constituency. It is a fantastic small organisation, whose longer be any second-class citizens, and that anyone can volunteers provide services to mental health service be supported through and recover from a mental illness users, such as support groups for people suffering from and exercise full responsibility as a citizen. anxiety and depression, which can manifest themselves in many different types of mental disorder. It provides Mr Nuttall: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely social events so that people suffering from mental health right. That is why I said that the Bill was sensible on two problems can take part in social activities in a warm and levels. The removal of the specific discrimination that welcoming environment, and very soon it will be offering prevents people from playing their part in public life weekly drop-in sessions. sends a wider message about the way in which our This Bill deserves to be given a Second Reading so it Parliament wants society as a whole to regard people can progress into Committee. While I am sure there will who are struggling with mental health problems. be no shortage of volunteers to serve on it, I would be more than willing, if needed, to do so. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill will also help people I conclude by reading a brief extract from an e-mail to come forward and ask for help? I talk to a great many I received from a constituent, Dr Andrew Clark, who is former members of the armed forces who did not a consultant psychiatrist: experience a mental health problem caused by something “The fact that one can be turned down for jury service, or be that had happened to them during their service careers removed from one’s job as an MP or company director because until much later, after they had left the service. They of mental health problems, is discriminatory and outdated. have a tremendous sense of duty and they have much to Discrimination on the grounds of mental health is archaic, unfair and not acceptable”. offer, but the current legislation erects a barrier that prevents them from seeking help. I am pleased to support this Bill.

Mr Nuttall: I do agree with my hon. Friend. I think 10.51 am that if we send the message that there may be people who are struggling on their own, lonely and in need of John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The issue of mental help but perhaps frightened of seeking that help, we will health has crossed my path many times throughout my be doing a great service. life. In fact, I have seen some of the extremes of it. I once worked on all the wards of a very old-fashioned Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Will the hon. mental hospital, Oakwood hospital in Maidstone. In Gentleman give way? the north, I taught at Ashworth’s predecessor institution, known as Park Lane. I am probably the only MP who Mr Nuttall: I will, but then I must make progress. has had the experience of showing somebody into a padded cell and of helping administer electro-convulsive Naomi Long: People have spoken about the fear and therapy—that is quite a distinction, I guess. I have seen stigma that go with mental health conditions. The reason the extremes, therefore, and my conclusion is that mental I think the Bill is so important, and the reason I stayed health covers a very wide spectrum—a whole range of at Westminster today to support it, is that if people feel issues. that their employment and their future may be for ever There are two fallacies to which I strongly object. tainted by the fact that they have had such a condition, First, there is the idea that the world is divided into not only is that a disincentive to their seeking treatment, those who have perfect mental health and those who do but it may remove their hope of recovery and affect not—hands-up anybody in the Chamber who has got their rehabilitation. Giving people the hope of full perfect mental health. It is undoubtedly the case that recovery and full participation in society is a very some people cannot do certain kinds of work because important part of dealing with mental illness. of mental health issues, of course, but it is also the case that many people work despite having mental health Mr Nuttall: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. issues; they might work through mental health issues The point is well made. The current law states, for with occasional mental health episodes while at work, instance, that anyone who has ever had mental health and some people will be oblivious to the mental health problems cannot serve on a jury, and that sends the issues they have. It is a fallacy to think there are people 559 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 560 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [John Pugh] Mind, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the many disability organisations that battle every day to get that who are available for work with perfect mental health, message across. There is no such thing as normal. We and those who are unavailable for work, who lack are all unique; we all bring our own qualities to this perfect mental health. place, and to whatever walk of life we have chosen. The second fallacy is that having an acute episode of Those qualities, however idiosyncratic they may be, a mental health issue permanently disqualifies someone should be celebrated, not hidden. from work. That must be resisted entirely. The philosopher That is why I am delighted to be here to support this Nietzsche said that what does not destroy us makes us Bill introduced by my good friend, my hon. Friend the stronger, and there is plenty of evidence to support that; Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell). I have some people are strengthened by having had a mental known him for many years; he is a man of great health problem. The hon. Member for Broxbourne integrity. I know that he introduces this Bill because he, (Mr Walker) has been able to work very satisfactorily like all of us here, genuinely believes that now is the time for his constituents and in all sorts of jobs, which serves to make progress on these issues. to show that people can work through chronic mental If someone breaks a leg, they get hospital treatment health problems. I worked with colleagues in the teaching and support not only from the medical services, but profession who had obsessive compulsive disorder. Lots from family and friends—there will be a lot of “get of people manage to cope with, and overcome, chronic well” cards and sympathy and encouragement. When a mental health issues and go back to work. mental health episode occurs, however, things are far Belief in either of those fallacies leads to the unfair too often rather different. Other people—including friends, discrimination that the Bill seeks to tackle. Discrimination sometimes—often have difficulty dealing with it. That is itself is not a bad thing, however. We frequently need to due to centuries of stigma about mental health conditions. discriminate; we do so all the time. Older Members will It is not so long ago that people who had poor remember the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketch eyesight were seen as lesser creatures with a disability. I about the one-legged man applying for a film role as see that a lot of us today are wearing glasses; that is Tarzan, and we can think of circumstances in which entirely part of the human condition—it is part of who having certain mental health issues would disqualify we are. A simple but important analogy can be drawn people from following a profession: it is probably not a between that and the situation with regard to mental good idea for those with a phobia of heights to apply health. for a job in the Shard, and it might well be inadvisable for those with suicidal tendencies to apply for a post involving firearms. The generalised stigma that prevails Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend must not allow the throughout wider society is wholly inappropriate, however. wearing of glasses to be the only evidence that someone is very short-sighted. I can assure all Members of the I looked up the Mental Health Act 1983. Its provisions House that, were it not for contact lenses, I would be apply not to MPs with mental health problems, but to completely unable to find my way to the Chamber. MPs who are subject to compulsory detention under that Act, such as, perhaps, those with suicidal impulses or those with delusions and hallucinations, and where Mr Buckland: I must confess that I am one of a large the prognosis is poor. The question then is what to do. number of people who are rather squeamish about the We are torn between discrimination, which we reject, concept of contact lenses, but I am grateful to my hon. and the need to make sure people have proper and Friend for making a good point about invisible conditions, adequate representation. That question requires a solution which is another important analogy.We need to understand of some subtlety. As has been said, this is not an issue of and have a greater awareness of invisible disabilities mental health; it is an issue of the capacity of an MP, such as autism, and you will know of my great interest and to make it merely an issue about mental health is in that subject, Mr Deputy Speaker. pure discrimination. A significant proportion of all our constituents will have at some time suffered from and reported a mental 10.56 am health condition. In Swindon, the proportion of the GP-registered population with mental health needs in Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is an 2010-11 was just over 13%. Some 0.7% of the population honour to take part in this debate on a Bill that, at a were described as having a mental health problem, and stroke, will make huge leaps forward in how we approach 12.4% were suffering from depression. More than one mental health in respect of people who serve in this in eight registered patients in the borough of Swindon, House, on a jury or as a company director, and in how which has a population of over 200,000 people, have we address the role that people with mental health advised their doctor about a mental health condition. conditions play in our society. That is not something we can put in a box in a corner The previous speaker, the hon. Member for Southport and forget about; it is something all around us, visible (John Pugh), is absolutely right: there is no binary or invisible, that we need to accept, embrace and understand. divide in our society between those who have mental My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central health and those who do not—just as, in fact, there is no rightly pointed out that one significant anomaly in the binary divide in terms of disability either. It is all a law—the position with regard to school governors—has question of degree, and it is important that we, as already been amended this year, and I am delighted that legislators, send that message out from this place loud the Government were able to bring that discrimination and clear both to society in general and in order to to an end. That brings into ever more stark relief the express our support for all the organisations in this outdated and archaic nature of the provisions that the field. Many of us work with organisations such as Bill seeks to repeal. 561 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 562 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill Dame Anne Begg: Does the hon. Gentleman agree not like to be described as vulnerable. Often they are that, so long as we discriminate against MPs, jurors or very tough people indeed who have gone through the company directors, it is much easier for employers to toughest of circumstances. discriminate against someone with a history of mental I make that point because a good-natured and well- illness, which flies in the face of the Government’s intentioned approach that describes people with mental avowed intention of getting people who are presently health conditions as vulnerable brings with it a danger being declared fit for work into work when actually the that the vulnerability becomes the basis by which, rather biggest barrier is not their history of mental illness, but than encouraging and enabling such people to engage the attitude of the employer who refuses to employ fully in society and public life, we assume that they need them? to be looked after in a different way and separated from mainstream society. Such a view is only a short step Mr Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that away from the old thinking about institutionalisation—the important point. She is entirely right. It is a question thinking of previous generations, which did so much not just of removing legislative barriers, but of encouraging harm and damage to people with mental health conditions. a change in culture. Owing to a lack of understanding, Although it is undeniable that people with disabilities frankly, far too many businesses and organisations still or mental health conditions can find themselves in display that outdated and unfortunate response to those vulnerable situations, that is very different from making with mental health conditions. glib assumptions about their vulnerability. The Bill would be a straightforward and simple piece Mr Charles Walker: Good practice needs to be of legislation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bury recognised, and I am pleased to report that next week North (Mr Nuttall) said, it would also reduce and Legal and General is hosting a major conference in the repeal legislation—something that I, as a Conservative, City about mental health and tackling stigma. I believe am always happy to support. In three particular respects that the company should be congratulated for doing it deals with provisions that are not only discriminatory, that, particularly in the City, where there is a sort of but wholly superfluous. The provision relating to Members macho culture in which people deny any weakness in of Parliament, as has already been noted, is not only case their colleagues think the worse of them. dangerous, with the additional vice of potentially driving hon. Members to deny mental health problems, as in the light of the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. 2005, which allows for a person lacking capacity to be The equation of mental health problems with weakness detained without losing their seat, section 141 is utterly is something we must destroy utterly. We all know about redundant. On the principle that redundant legislation that culture in the City, and it exists elsewhere. Organisations is bad law, we as legislators should act swiftly to remove such as Legal and General and Swindon’s Mindful such a provision. Employer network, an excellent organisation that brings It has been reported today that people with stressful together companies large and small in my constituency jobs in which the ability to control events is limited—I to encourage and share best practice with regard to most definitely include being a Member of Parliament employees with stress or mental health and other related in that category—are at a 23% greater risk of having a conditions, can demonstrate the way to go when it heart attack. We really would be idiots in this place if comes to dealing with these conditions. we denied the possibility that the mental health of hon. Members is not invulnerable. In my opinion the 2005 Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am greatly Act caters well for cases in which, sadly, detention for enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. His point about the mental health reasons is the only alternative available idea of mental illness being equated with weakness but, importantly, it does not allow the automatic vacation brings to mind a famous radio lecture given by Viscount of a seat because of the fact of a mental health condition. Slim of Burma, who pointed out that even the most That is the important distinction that we must draw courageous warriors will eventually break down if they between the mere fact of a condition and the question are not rested and supported by their commanding of capacity. The two things are very different. officers and, indeed, that courage is a little like a bank As you probably know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I have account: one can be overdrawn for a certain amount of had more than my fair share of experience of dealing time, but not indefinitely. Some of the bravest and most with the great British jury, to quote the words of W.S. courageous people are just as liable to mental breakdown Gilbert, whether I have been sitting as a Crown court if they are not properly understood and supported as recorder or appearing as counsel in criminal cases. I say somebody who would never for a moment go into those with all the experience that I can muster that the court hazardous situations. system is perfectly capable of catering for and dealing with people with conditions—sometimes lifelong ones—that Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend brings a great hero of can be managed by the administration of medication. mine to our attention: Field Marshal the Viscount Slim, When somebody with diabetes, or another type of leader of the forgotten army, a man who led an physical condition managed by regular medication, comes outstandingly courageous operation in the far east. My to the court, the well adopted practice is for sittings and hon. Friend is absolutely right to bring that huge experience administrative arrangements to be adjusted so that the to bear in this debate, which allows me to make an person’s needs can be accommodated, they can take important point. We must be very careful when we use their medication and can serve as a juror. In other words such as “vulnerable”, because many people I words, no assumption is made that, just because a know who have mental health conditions—I am sure potential juror has a physical condition or disability, other Members of the House know such people—would they cannot serve as a juror. 563 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 564 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Mr Buckland] The decision to enact the armed forces covenant showed Parliament’s clear view that mental health is The assumption in the Juries Act 1974 about mental incredibly important for our armed forces. As a country, health is wholly wrong. The blanket ban serves not only we have moved on significantly from the time of the to reinforce stigma, but devalues the contribution that first world war, when 306 soldiers were executed for people with mental health conditions make to society desertion as they were considered to be cowards. They and can make as jurors. In my humble opinion, there is were shot for having mental health problems, and I find no more important public service for an individual than that unacceptable. Following the Shot at Dawn campaign, to serve on a jury in judgment over their fellow citizen. which claimed that soldiers were blameless because To drive underground necessary disclosure of some severe psychological trauma rendered them physically mental health conditions that could affect the capacity unable to cope with the shocking scenes they had witnessed, to serve is, in my view, what is happening now—inevitably, the previous Labour Government pardoned all those as result of the outdated provisions in the 1974 Act. 306 soldiers in 2006. I thank them for that. That is why those provisions must go and why I particularly Today, we recognise that our soldiers’ mental health welcome the Bill. has often been damaged by their combat experiences in defending our country. I am told by the excellent charity Mr Charles Walker: May I take my hon. Friend back Combat Stress that a condition can take up to 15 years to his earlier comment that on occasions he felt a victim to become apparent. On occasion, a condition can arise of events in this place? Today, with this excellent speech, at the very end, when people have finished their physical as on so many other days, he is driving events and is to working careers; dealing with that in one’s later years congratulated for it. must be very traumatic.

Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Last year I received a a friend indeed. moving letter from a young officer constituent of mine I turn to the final provision, which relates to company who was serving in Helmand province. He stated that directors. The proposed removal of the provisions in his predominant concern was the provision of mental the schedules to the Companies (Model Articles) health support to troops who had finished their service. Regulations 2008 has the function of removing not only He stressed how important such support was and said discriminatory provisions but unnecessary ones. Why is they should not be discriminated against if problems that? It is because the model articles themselves already emerged in later life. contain provision for the termination of a director’s appointment if a registered GP is of the opinion that Oliver Colvile: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I that person has become physically or mentally incapable should add that serving in the armed forces can be just as a director and may be so for more than three months. one of several careers. A condition may still be lying The provisions are a complete waste of time. They underneath the surface as someone moves from the need to be removed for the sake of simplicity. Frankly, armed services into another job, and that could have a this is another example of removing unnecessary red severe impact on their subsequent career. We need to tape and burdens when it comes to the setting up and make sure that the stigma is taken away. creation of a business. From a practical point of view, June’s mental health debate attracted a large amount the removal is effective and necessary. Let me also deal of national media and press attention, especially due to briefly with the existing provisions on orders made by the brave remarks and admissions made by my hon. the Court of Protection. Those orders are based on a Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and lack of mental capacity, not the mere fact of a mental the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). I health condition. thank them for doing so. It was a first—the first time I have mentioned that difference before, and I will say that any Members had made such comments. it again—I will keep saying it until everybody understands. The Bill repeals section 141 of the Mental Health Act Having a mental health condition does not mean that 1983, a copy of which I have here with me; I have had a someone cannot play their full part in our society. That flick through it in the past few days. The section deals is why I warmly welcome the Bill as a real step forward, with the disqualification for mental health reasons of on a day of honour for the House. MPs from Parliament and devolved bodies and of people from serving on juries. Hopefully, that will be another 11.14 am step in helping remove the stigma of people suffering Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) from mental health problems, will create a less judgmental (Con): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for society and will stop mental health discrimination. Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), whom I have known Mental health sickness, like most physical ailments, is for nearly 20 years, for securing the Second Reading of relative. I shall let Members in on a secret—people can the Bill, which I am here to support because it is a useful come out of it. It is not a life sentence; it is a veil, a wall and well made opportunity to address mental health and a pain barrier that needs to be worked through, conditions and try to reduce their stigma. obviously with a lot of help. I hope that by repealing the Mental health has risen up the political and national section, we can help remove the discrimination and agenda in the past two or three years. I have taken a make sure that people who have mental health challenges keen interest in the issue, especially as far as our armed feel they can contribute to both society and decisions. forces are concerned. My constituency of Plymouth, Since my election I have participated in a number of Sutton and Devonport is the home of 3 Commando incredibly well-informed debates on the mental health Brigade, which comprises the Royal Navy, the Royal of our veterans. Many of our gallant colleagues have Marines and 29 Commando. served in our armed forces and witnessed some very 565 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 566 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill harrowing sights. While I have little idea of the experiences Mental health is probably the last remaining great that have affected their personal mental health, I know area of stigma in public life. It is striking that there were that their practical knowledge has benefited the way in Members of Parliament willing to come out about their which Parliament has made decisions and the debates sexuality before Members of Parliament were willing to we have had. To write off that knowledge would make come out about their mental health challenges. That us less informed and the poorer in our decision-making speaks to the level of stigma around mental health. The process. reasons for that stigma are worth touching on. First, it This private Member’s Bill should not be the end of is partly about the very British notion that one has to our having a better understanding of mental health and keep calm and carry on, keep a stiff upper lip, have a how we can deal with patients challenged by these cup of tea and get on with it. There is a sense that problems. It should be another step in eradicating the someone who has a mental health challenge has somehow stigma and should help us to deliver better mental failed personally. The stigma is also about sheer ignorance. health care. We need to make sure that all those who are I remember an appalling front page—I am sorry to responsible for delivering our public services—such as mention this paper for the second time this week—that our policemen and women, accident and emergency The Sun ran about Frank Bruno when he had his nurses, firemen and GPs—are better trained. There mental health problems: “Bonkers Bruno”. The Sun must be better co-ordination between all these services was shocked that thousands of people responded to on the ground. We need to make sure that mental health that, which was an example of the public being ahead of funding is not just an add-on, as it can be on occasion. their media. Of course, there is also fear involved. People are never so ignorant or so cruel as when they This summer, in my role as a vice-chairman of the are frightened. Those things have fed the sense of stigma all-party armed forces group, I was asked to help a about mental health. young man who had seen action in Afghanistan, was It is also important to talk about the policy challenges suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder, and was posed by mental health. For too long, mental health has to be forced to remain in barracks until the last day of been the orphan child of the health service. Many his service despite a worsening in his mental health Members will know that their local mental health condition. I was asked to contact the Ministry of Defence institutions and hospitals are often on the outskirts of as it appeared that the family was having real difficulty their communities and cities, and that reflects how in explaining the young lad’s problem to the ill-informed mental health has been seen. It is very important in the military chain of command. I was able to do that, and 21st century, as my right hon. Friend the Member for I am delighted and grateful that the MOD reacted Leigh (Andy Burnham) feels passionately, that we offer accordingly. We need to make sure that when we make a new deal on mental health—we welcome the decisions and pass legislation, people on the ground are Government’s mental health strategy—and that mental aware of what they should be doing. health and physical health are put on the same footing Two weeks ago, I visited my local Charles Cross and get the same attention and proportionate funding. police station, which in 2006 was named as almost the Of course, mental health is about more than legislation. busiest in the United Kingdom, second only to Glasgow. It is about resources, availability and the specific mental I was told that people with mental health problems health needs of particular groups. We have heard about regularly have to be put into the cells when they should the mental health needs of the armed services. Yesterday be referred to Derriford hospital’s Glenborne unit in I was at a health summit for the lesbian, gay, bisexual line with section 136 of the Mental Health Act 1983. It and transgender community, where I heard about the appears that unfortunately Plymouth does not have the unmet mental health needs in that community. We are necessary facilities. My local police feel that this is an seeing across the country rising levels of self-harm inappropriate way to deal with these people, that in among our young people. The disproportionate numbers some cases they make these people’s lives worse rather of black and minority ethnic people in our mental than better, and that custody officers should be receiving health hospitals and in our health system has long been a higher level of training than is currently available. a cause for concern. They would very much welcome a qualified mental health nurse being regularly attached to their unit so Let me pause here and say to the House that last that correct assessments can be made. night my constituency party secretary, Greta Karpin, died. She was a brilliant and remarkable woman. We all I support the Bill because I want this to be the first have Greta Karpins in our local parties. Had she been step. I want more training for our front-line service born at another time and in another place, she would no providers and a more joined-up approach. It is not doubt have been an MP or a Cabinet Minister. Greta rocket science; it is mental health. was fortunate to die with all her faculties completely intact. In fact, she died on her way back from an executive party meeting, plotting about something or 11.23 am other, which I think is probably the way she would have Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) wanted to go. Greta was in her late 70s and died with all (Lab): I am pleased to support this very important Bill. her faculties intact, but that will not be true of all of us, I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon Central or of all our friends and family. How we manage (Gavin Barwell) and Lord Stevenson of Coddenham, dementia and give help and support to the elderly who who have been part of the process that has brought the suffer from it is a huge policy challenge facing all of us. Bill to the Floor of the House. I want to speak about We will debate big mental health policy issues in the stigma; about the policy challenges posed by mental House in the months and years to come, and I hope that health; and about why this Bill is important, as my hon. we can find some measure of common ground on both Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said. sides of the Chamber. For example, for all the things I 567 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 568 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Ms Diane Abbott] I thank all hon. Members who have spoken today with refreshing openness, as was the case in June, about found problematic about the Health and Social Care the impact that mental health issues have had on their Bill, moving responsibility for public health to local lives and on those of our constituents. It is right that we authorities offers the potential of making advances in have taken this opportunity to debate those important mental health and tailoring provision to the particular issues further. This morning’s debate continues the tradition needs of a particular community and groups within it. of bravery and sympathy that was established in this House on 14 June. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Finally, I want to talk about why this Bill is important. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), who is As other Members have said—we have heard some now doing excellent work on the Front Bench and who excellent speeches from Members on both sides of the played a role in initiating that debate. It has been House—it is important because of the symbolism of humbling to see politics set aside—in June and today—and what it says about public attitudes towards mental hon. Members from both sides speaking in support of health. In having this debate, we signify that attitudes the measures. have changed, but we are also helping to move those attitudes on. I have spent a lifetime fighting discrimination I will take a moment to recap on some of the excellent in all its forms, and I know that despite all the things contributions that have been made. We heard first of all people say about MPs, Parliament and so on, what from the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame happens in this House is often pivotal and a signifier of Anne Begg), who referred to her own recent experience a decisive change in the public mood. of being absent from the House. We welcome her back with gusto. She is absolutely right that the tribulation This is an important Bill and I am glad to support it that can result from any health problem contributes on behalf of my party and our entire health team. better to our ability to endeavour to represent constituents Many people outside the House will be watching this who may experience the same thing. However, she taught debate and feeling relieved and that things may be us much more—as she often does—with her experience changing for them. Mental health is one of the huge of working in this place and of seeking election with her policy challenges of the 21st century. We as a House own disability. She reminds us all of the trust and belief need to do many practical things with regard to policy that we solicit from people when we stand for Parliament, and organisational issues, but in lifting the veil of stigma, and she certainly teaches us about the fire and the of signalling that public attitudes must change and of feistiness with which we need to do that and canvass turning the corner on attitudes to public health, there and persuade. She teaches us that, in many ways, the will be no more important moments in this House than battle is still to come, despite the very good step that we this Bill being agreed today. are taking this morning. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne 11.30 am (Mr Walker) and the hon. Member for North Durham The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe (Mr Jones), who have been well feted today, spoke Smith): This has been a thought-provoking debate and admirably again. My hon. Friend spoke of the sea it is a genuine pleasure to respond to it. Like all other change in attitudes since the June debate and gave a hon. Members who have spoken, I begin by congratulating great insight into what can happen in a media studio my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin once the lid has been taken off these difficult issues. He Barwell) on his success in the ballot and on then introducing is right to say that our hon. Friend the Member for this Bill on a subject that is much deserving of the Croydon Central has achieved something big today, support that it continues to enjoy in this House. I assure for which we all congratulate him and wish him well. the House, as I think it already knows, that this Bill has the full backing of the Government. I appreciate the The hon. Member for North Durham repeated the words spoken by the hon. Member for Hackney North challenging question asked by one of his constituents, and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on behalf of Her who said, “Why should this matter? Why should we talk Majesty’s Opposition. She was passionate and right to about this today?” A cynic might ask whether this is just talk about the effect of ignorance, cruelty and fear, and another exception for MPs, but the hon. Gentleman I look forward, as, I think, do all hon. Members, to responded admirably to such views. He gave, with dry much common endeavour to overcome those concerns. humour, an historical overview and said, with passion, that we should talk about it today and elsewhere. I am sure that the entire House will join me in paying My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) tribute to Lord Stevenson of Coddenham, whose Mental acknowledged work that the Government are doing Health (Discrimination) Bill in the other place provided and was right to highlight this week’s important the genesis for the Bill under discussion. Without his announcement on suicide prevention. As always, we efforts, we might not be debating this important issue welcome her professional expertise. today. Although it is regrettable that the previous parliamentary Session did not allow enough time for My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North Lord Stevenson’s Bill to progress, we are grateful to him (Mr Nuttall) is, of course, in his place on a Friday. I do and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central not think we will ever experience a Friday without his for their continued pursuit of the opportunity for legislative presence or his panache and tenacity in pursuing not change on mental health. I know that, when this Bill only the state of the public purse, but the appropriateness reaches the other place, Lord Stevenson will treat it with of any private Member’s Bill. I am sure that my hon. the same gusto with which he treated his own. I assure Friends in the Whip’s Office have noted, as I have, that all hon. Members present that that work will have the he has volunteered to sit on the Bill Committee. I do not Government’s continued support. imagine that that will be agreed to, but, on a serious 569 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 570 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill note, I welcome my hon. Friend’s commitment to the Mr Kevan Jones: I welcome the hon. Lady to her work. Even if he was only just able to find his way to position. I, too, welcome the report by the hon. Member the Chamber, we welcome his contribution. for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). Will the hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Lady also recognise the work that I and my predecessors Pugh), who is very learned, made an erudite, thoughtful as Minister for veterans did in the last Labour Government and challenging contribution. He posed questions, as I to advance the cause of veterans’ mental health? have often heard him do, that should make us all continue to consider what we do in this place and why. Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman is correct and I He drew on a deep experience of his own in a former certainly recognise that work. Today is a day for recognising professional capacity. the work of successive Governments in many spheres of My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon policy and human sympathy. (Mr Buckland) drew out, with tenacity and drive, some Turning back to today’s debate, tackling stigma and of the distinctions that we make in our everyday lives if discrimination is at the heart of the Government’s mental we do not consider things carefully. He mentioned health strategy. I join all Members here today, who have physical ill health, which I have experienced, having said many times that it cannot be right in the 21st century broken a bone, and rightly said—this has been said for somebody to be automatically expelled from this many times today—that it is possible to recover from place because they have had a mental health illness. episodes of both physical and mental illness. That sends out entirely the wrong message: that if one has mental health problems, one’s contribution is not Mr Buckland: We should pay tribute to my hon. welcome in public life. That has applied not only to the Friend for having soldiered on when she sustained that House of Commons, but to juries and directorships. In physical injury. By getting on with her job, she made the February last year, the Government announced that point that, although she had a reduced capacity, she section 141 of the Mental Health Act 1983 would be was able to do it. That is the point. The mere fact that repealed when a suitable legislative vehicle became available. she was injured did not mean that she could not do it. This Bill is that vehicle, and we are glad to see that issue She made the point about capacity by her own example. linked to similar amendments on company directors and jurors. Miss Smith: My hon. Friend is too kind, but he makes the point well, on behalf of others who have had This issue goes well beyond the business of government to deal with far greater difficulties than a mere broken and opposition. Shifting public attitudes and behaviour metatarsal, that it is possible to recover and make a vital requires a major and substantial social movement. The contribution to civil society as represented by the three Government are doing their bit within that. February strands addressed by the Bill. last year saw the publication of the Government’s strategy on mental health entitled, “No health without mental My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East health”. The strategy recognised that mental health is (Dr Lewis) mentioned an important historical example central to our quality of life and to our economic given by Viscount Slim. He spoke of courage, weakness success, individually and collectively. It is interdependent and vulnerability and what it means to endeavour to with the success that any Government might hope for in sustain those important qualities. My hon. Friends the improving training, education and employment, and in Members for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver tackling the persistent problems that scar our society, Colvile) and for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) from homelessness through to violence, substance abuse followed that line and spoke on behalf of their many and other forms of crime. constituents who have been part of the armed forces. I reiterate their comments that the Government are absolutely The title of the strategy, “No health without mental committed to their armed forces covenant and to helping health”, captures our ambition to mainstream mental get the right support where it is needed for those members health in this country. That concept has been referred to of society. many times today. The Government expect parity of esteem between physical and mental health services. I Oliver Colvile: Will my hon. Friend also pay tribute know, from the comments of the hon. Member for to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Hackney North and Stoke Newington, that the Opposition Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr also want that. Murrison), who produced the initial report on mental health, “Fighting Fit”? That useful piece of work was Mr Charles Walker: I mentioned a few moments ago carried out at the very beginning. that Legal and General is doing good work to address stigma. No doubt, as a former Treasury Minister, my Miss Smith: I certainly join my hon. Friends the hon. Friend will welcome that. Will she ensure that her Members for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport and for colleagues in government work with employers to promote South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) in thatendeavour. the agenda of “No health without mental health” and As today is a Friday, many hon. Members will be in to celebrate those who take a lead? their constituencies doing the range of work that comprises the job of a Member of Parliament. The hon. Member Miss Smith: My hon. Friend is, once more, absolutely for Aberdeen South began by describing that work. My correct. In this arena, as in so many others, it is vital for hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and the Government to work with the private sector, the Devonport is right that we all contribute, in our very voluntary sector and anybody in any capacity to achieve different ways, to the central endeavour of representing our aims. We are talking about broad-scale cultural people well and looking into the problems that we are change. We need the private sector, whether in a macho asked to represent them on, whether it be here on a or non-macho environment, to stand up and say that it Friday away from our constituencies or through such cares about mental health and wants people to be well reports and detailed research. supported. I want that to happen in all walks of life. 571 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 572 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill Mr Kevan Jones: I note what the Minister says about example, because I was not there to see it, but we need mental health being at the heart of Government policy. to ensure that such stigmatisation is not possible, is not I know that she is new in her post, but I ask her to have the done thing and is frowned on whenever it is seen or urgent discussions with her colleagues in the Department experienced. We need to stand up and speak up for that for Work and Pensions about the tests by Atos that view, and whenever we can we need to frown on that many of our constituents are facing. People who are stigma from a front row seat. One of the six objectives affected by mental health issues, in particular, are having in the mental health strategy was exactly that—that a very difficult time and there are some grave injustices fewer people will experience stigma and discrimination. that need to be put right. As the House will know, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central set out, the strategy has Miss Smith: I recognise the subject that the hon. the full backing and endorsement of the whole Government. Gentleman raises, which he also mentioned earlier. I do My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has a not think that today is the right time for me to go into long record of calling for the reform of mental health that matter in detail; the cross-party consensus might be policy. affected if I did. We do need to get that process right, as we need to get right many processes of administration For negative attitudes and behaviour towards people and welfare, in its broadest sense, across government. I with mental health issues to decrease, we need to improve am sure that my colleagues at the Department for Work public understanding of those issues and gain more and Pensions and the Department of Health will have sympathetic treatment of them in our mainstream media. heard his plea. As a member of the Government, I Again, I refer to the excellent work that my hon. Friend certainly want us to get that process right, and I will the Member for Broxbourne did in June, has done since work with colleagues to achieve that. and will do in future. To build on the point made by my hon. Friend the I also pay tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend Member for Broxbourne, we need to work with partners the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), for the on the mental health strategy. It is not possible for the work that he has done. He has spoken passionately and Government to say, “It shall be so.” We need to ensure often on these proposals, and he said in an interview that the right outcomes are delivered locally and are with politics.co.uk in June 2009: driven by good evidence. We must cast the net wide to “Mental ill-health is still very much a taboo subject in Parliament do that. The challenges are enormous and extremely as well as the work place and this must change. Mental ill-health difficult. That can be seen, on an individual level, when affects as many as one in four of the working age population and it is crucial that Parliament leads the way in promoting a better we have conversations on this matter in our constituency understanding of mental health.” surgeries. However, the rewards of getting this right are vast. That is part of the point of today’s debate. That is still pertinent today, notwithstanding the steps that we are taking to ensure that the mental health It is often quoted that at least one in four of us will taboo is well and truly broken. Momentum has been experience mental health problems at some point in our building behind the measures in the Bill for some time, life. What is less often quoted is that about half of as many hon. Members have shown in their comments people with a lifetime mental health problem experience today and their actions over time both inside and outside their first symptoms by the age of 14. That is a startling the House. statistic among the sea of statistics in this debate. By promoting good mental health across society and by Mr Charles Walker: It is not for me to interfere in intervening early, particularly in the crucial childhood matters for the Government and Public Bill Committees, and teenage years, we can help to prevent mental illness but may I make a plea that when the Bill goes into from developing and mitigate its effects when it does. Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough Only a sustained approach across the course of life will (Nicky Morgan) is the Whip in charge? She has been a equip us to meet the enormous social, economic and stalwart of the all-party mental health group, and we environmental challenges, and to deliver the benefits to are sad to lose her to the Whips Office. I know that she the people who need them, which is why we are here will go on to do great things there and elsewhere, but we today. would like to see her again on occasion. When mental health services work well, they work well with the public sector, the private sector and the Miss Smith: My hon. Friend’s attitude to the Whips voluntary sector, and they help people to overcome Office is well documented and understood in the House. disadvantage and to fulfil their potential. Any action on I pay tribute to him for his independence of spirit and mental health, from a Government or otherwise, is not his tenacity in pursuing not only mental health issues only a mental health strategy but a social justice strategy. but a range of others, and for turning his face against I know that that is what all of us here today stand for. the establishment whenever possible. If I may be so Dr Wollaston: Does my hon. Friend agree that this cheeky, I endorse his request for that particular member matter is the responsibility not just of Government, but of the Whips Office to be on the Committee. It may be of non-governmental organisations? Only this week, well without my powers to do so—I am sure that you, the Health Committee saw the disappointing example Mr Deputy Speaker, or powers greater than any of us, of how the chair of the Care Quality Commission and will advise me about that shortly. My hon. Friend the that organisation sought to stigmatise a member of Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) has their own board with regard to what they alleged to be a campaigned tirelessly on the matter and deserves recognition past episode of mental illness. for doing so. Miss Smith: My hon. Friend is right that we need to Mr Kevan Jones: May I also request that when the encourage cultural change across a number of organisations. Bill goes into Committee, we have a Health Minister I hope she will forgive me for not responding to that dealing with it? 573 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 574 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill Miss Smith: I am sad if I have not been able to to be a Member of Parliament, to play a role in civic life convince the hon. Gentleman of my passion for the Bill. by sitting on a jury or to be the director of a company. I I can assure him that I am standing here today because am pleased with what has been said about school governors, this matter cuts across government. For his reassurance, and I endorse hon. Members’ comments on recent I offer him the full support of my right hon. Friend the legislation on that issue. Deputy Prime Minister, who is responsible for constitutional Today’s work is important for all hon. Members here affairs, my support as the political and constitutional today, the constituents we represent, and all campaigners reform Minister and the support of the Ministry of who have spoken about the issue of mental health with Justice and the Department of Health. I hope he is passion, integrity and an often harrowing depth of reassured that the Bill will be well supported by the experience. The House can contribute its bit in various Government in Committee. ways, as we have done today. I hope that the Bill will continue to enjoy the cross-party support to which it Mr Nuttall: To move back to the substance of the has become accustomed, and that Members in this Bill, before those interventions my hon. Friend was House and the other place will provide it with the discussing how it would help to break down the taboos smooth parliamentary path that it deserves. Let us back that have traditionally surrounded mental health. Will the Bill—I believe we are trying to get that trending on she take this opportunity to pay tribute to popular Twitter. Let us talk about it, congratulate those who television programmes such as “EastEnders” and brought it before the House, and do our bit to end “Coronation Street” for how they have portrayed mental stigma and discrimination. health issues and brought them to a much wider audience? That has been a starting point for people to be able to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the discuss them. leave of the House, I call Gavin Barwell.

Miss Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and once again, that brings us to the point that to achieve a 11.57 am cultural change, we need to use all the channels available Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I would like to us to get the message out—I am not just referring to to say a few words to sum up the debate. First, I television channels, although he is absolutely right to welcome to the Chamber my hon. Friend the Member mention popular shows that have been able to get the for Shipley (Philip Davies), who is a good friend. When message to a much wider audience. he arrived, he told me that he had been following I return to the tireless work that hon. Members proceedings closely, and I asked whether he had also throughout the House have done, which has supported been following them with approval. As he correctly organisations representing the interests of people with pointed out, if it had been with disapproval, he would mental health conditions to end mental health have been here talking for two and a half hours. discrimination. As we have discussed at great length, I thank all hon. Members who have spoken, including there are Members who have themselves suffered from the hon. Members for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne mental health conditions, and as the hon. Member for Begg) and for North Durham (Mr Jones), and my hon. Aberdeen South said, they are all the better for it, as Friends the Members for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and representative MPs. for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). My hon. Friend the Member As constituency MPs, the least we can do is to offer for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) made an encouragingly to work with mental health organisations, and with brief speech, at least from my point of view. If my right constituents, friends or family members who suffer hon. Friend the Chief Whip has been following from mental health conditions. We will all, individually proceedings—I am sure the duty Whip will have noted and collectively, do that. I know that the House will join this—he will be aware that my hon. Friend the Member me in paying tribute to the work of Mind and Rethink for Bury North cannot find his way into the Chamber Mental Illness, and the anti-stigma campaign, “Time without his contact lenses. I thank the hon. Member for to Change”. I congratulate both those groups, which Southport (John Pugh) and my hon. Friends the Members work out of my constituency of Norwich North. As a for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and for Plymouth, constituency MP, I have had the privilege of joining Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) for their them in the work and activities that they carry out. As a contributions. All the speeches were excellent, and I result of today’s debate, I hope that we will all do better believe that today’s debate has shown the House at its in the work that we endeavour humbly to do with best. organisations and those experiencing difficulty. While Due to the changes in the rules and proceedings of doing our bit to support efforts to raise awareness of the House, not only have I listened to the speeches, but I mental health conditions, it is important to acknowledge have followed the reaction to our debate on social and recognise the many times the issue been raised in media. What has happened in the Chamber means a lot many places, far and wide, outside this Chamber, long to a great many people and I may well get in touch with before this Government took office. hon. Members who have spoken to ask whether they As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central would like to serve on the Committee. set out in some detail—I do not need to repeat his I thank the two Front-Bench speakers, and in particular points—the Bill aims to repeal various pieces of legislation I echo the point raised by the hon. Member for Hackney that discriminate against the participation of those with North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) about dementia. mental health conditions in public life. It goes some way I lost my father to Alzheimer’s disease, and although towards removing the stigma associated with mental Governments of both colours have made real strides in health conditions, whether that is to say it is okay for recent years, we still need to do a lot more to tackle that someone who has experienced mental health difficulties issue. My hon. Friend the Minister is new to her brief, 575 Mental Health (Discrimination) 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Mental Health (Discrimination) 576 (No. 2) Bill (No. 2) Bill [Gavin Barwell] Secondly, the hon. Member for North Durham paid tribute to a number of public figures who have been but she showed a good grasp of all the issues the debate open about their conditions. He mentioned Alastair covers. To reassure the hon. Member for North Durham, Campbell, the former Prime Minister’s press secretary, it was good to see a Health Minister and a Justice who has spoken out repeatedly—he is very brave to Minister on the Front Bench earlier in the debate. have done so given the high profile role he had. I should like to mention a sporting figure, Marcus Trescothick, Mr Kevan Jones: My only concern is that the Cabinet who has shown incredible courage. I have read his Office Minister said that the Bill has the full support of autobiography, which is an extremely moving account the Deputy Prime Minister, and his recent track record of his experiences. We have debates on mental health in of getting legislation through is not very good. the House, but it also means a great deal when those who have a high profile in other spheres of public life Gavin Barwell: The hon. Gentleman tempts me into take the decision to talk openly and honestly about the debate on House of Lords reform, on which not their experiences. necessarily all my colleagues agree with my views, but I will not return to it. Thirdly, as the hon. Gentleman said, people need to tell those close to them about their condition, but the I should like to emphasise a few points from the reaction they get might not be what they expect. I have debate. First, there is a consensus in the House that been on a variety of TV and radio shows to talk about changing the law in and of itself does not change and promote the Bill. I will never forget a phone-in on society overnight, but it does send a clear signal. Such Iain Dale’s show on London’s Biggest Conversation. A changes have happened in my adult lifetime. When I number of calls we took were from people suffering was a child, an Asian family tried to buy a house in our from profound depression and other mental health road—they would have been the first Asian family to do conditions. One caller could not believe that any of the so. Disgustingly, some of the people on our road tried people in his life would want anything more to do with to persuade the family who were considering selling the him if he explained to them how he was feeling. My house not to sell to an Asian family. When that barrier message, as the friend of two people who have mental was broken and that first Asian family moved into the health conditions, was that friends will want to know road, people found that they were normal, decent people, and to provide care and support. If they do not want to and the problem went away overnight. Attitudes on do so, they are not proper friends. I therefore conclude, race have changed a great deal, although not enough. as the hon. Gentleman did, by saying that people who I also recall with great shame my teenage attitudes on are suffering should know that those who care enough sexuality—attitudes of which I am not proud. Attitudes will want to know and to provide help and support. in society to sexuality have also changed a great deal, and we need to change attitudes to mental health. When I thank all hon. Members who have spoken in the I was growing up, my perception was that mental health debate and those who have listened to our proceedings. problems affected very few people. As I said, two of my I very much hope the House gives the Bill a Second close personal friends over the past 20 years have been Reading. affected by mental health conditions. I now see how many people are affected by it, because that includes Question put and agreed to. their friends and family. It is not a case of people either having a mental condition or being perfectly healthy; Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed there is a continuum. to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). 577 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 578

Prisons (Property) Bill Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way so Second Reading early on. How will the Bill work in relation to illegal items, which it would be unlawful for an ordinary member of the public to own? We are not saying, are 12.4 pm we, that we give guns back to prisoners at the end of Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I beg to move, That their sentences and then arrest them for possessing a the Bill be now read a Second time. gun? Perhaps my hon. Friend could explain. I am humbled to follow the debate on the Bill promoted Stuart Andrew: No, my hon. Friend is quite right. We by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central would not be giving guns back; they would, of course, (Gavin Barwell). It was fantastic to listen to such a great be given to the police to deal with. However, there will debate. Politics is always at its best when people talk be anomalies along the way, and I am sure that many about things that are often difficult and personal. For hon. Members will help me to ensure that the Bill is as far too long, mental health has been stigmatised in this tight as possible on such issues. country. One of the most terrifying yet exhilarating experiences of my life was coming out to my parents as Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): As my a gay man. That was quite difficult. That debate was hon. Friend has made such a generous offer, let me had in politics long ago, and now we are just beginning congratulate him on introducing the Bill and ask whether to get to grips with the issue of mental health. That during its progress, perhaps in Committee, he might shows how difficult it is for so many people in the consider the question of illegal drugs. The last time I country. I commend all who spoke today so honestly. It looked, which was some time back, prisoners were was an honour to have been here in the Chamber. being found with illegal drugs more than 20,000 times a Over the two and a half years since my election, I year. Are those recorded as crimes, or does it depend on have had a raft of new experiences in this place. Getting whether the drugs are discovered by the Prison Service to know and understand how Parliament works presents or the police? What happens afterwards? Presumably Members with many challenges. There are so many drugs will not be given back if they have not been nuances—for instance, the processes of law making, the consumed already. Committee structures and procedures, and even the very language we have to use in Parliament. And today Stuart Andrew: This debate is already demonstrating is part of another process that I am trying to understand. that there will be a lot to talk about in Committee. Indeed, I hope that my hon. Friend will consider joining Perhaps naively, I never quite realised what I was me on that Committee. He is absolutely right: items that letting myself in for when I entered my name in the are illegal would never be returned. They would be sent book in the No Lobby for the ballot. I realise, however, to the police to deal with. that it is a great privilege to have found my name in the top 20, because it has given me the opportunity to To return to the point I was making, it is frankly present this Bill. I realise, of course, that this is only the astonishing that items seized by the governor are held in second step in a rather long process, and I know that I safe keeping simply to enable prisoners to claim them will have many more things to master along the way. back on their release. That is not only a perverse part of I hope that I will do so without letting the House down. the law; it is frankly wrong. It is also astonishing to I am grateful for the opportunity. I also wish to put on discover that the system is having a huge impact on the the record my thanks for the tremendous help and public purse in what are very difficult times. advice I have received from the Clerks of the House and all the civil servants who have given me as much information Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): The as I have asked for, whenever I have needed it. possession of unlawful articles such as drugs and firearms are separate criminal offences that are capable of If supported, the Bill would create a new power for prosecution. There are provisions in the relevant pieces prison governors and directors to destroy or otherwise of legislation—for example, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 dispose of any unauthorised property found within a and the Firearms Act 1968—that would allow for the prison or escort vehicle. That could include items that forfeiture and destruction of those items. My hon. it is generally unlawful to possess, such as controlled Friend is rightly seeking to deal with an anomaly. Items drugs or an offensive weapon, or items that are illegal to such as mobile telephones need to be confiscated because have in prison, such as mobile phones and sound-recording they are becoming a menace. devices. They could also be items that could threaten prison security and safety, such as property altered to Stuart Andrew: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His conceal drugs for smuggling. Finally, they could be background in law and his experience are showing far items that are inappropriate for prisoners to have in more than mine, as I have not been in the law. He is their possession, such as items smuggled in or coerced right. Indeed, I am sure the House would be amazed to from another prisoner. learn that the real problem is mobile phones. Some I want to talk about why the Bill is needed and what 41,000 mobile phones alone are currently being held in the problem is. It will probably stagger the House to storage by the Prison Service. They are all waiting to be discover that there is a need for such a Bill. I am afraid claimed by people who frankly should not have had to say that there is. Currently, there is nothing in law them in the first place. All those mobile phones are giving any power to governors to destroy property that being stored and administered by staff who are already prisoners should not have. As a result, astonishingly, busy in their day-to-day jobs. Furthermore, there is a any item seized has to be stored by governors and kept genuine concern that the legal position might not enable in safe keeping for the duration of the prisoner’s term. prisons to deal with unauthorised property, such as that 579 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 580

[Stuart Andrew] Liam Smith, who was shot dead outside a prison in Liverpool in 2006. Lloyd had used a contraband mobile which has been adapted for unauthorised use—for example, to call an accomplice. In 2009, another gang leader was radios with the mechanics removed to enable drugs to jailed for organising the murder of a 17-year-old man be smuggled into the prison. from his cell in a prison in Humberside. As I said earlier, the current position is considered Drugs have been sold from prison. One drug dealer perverse. It is remarkable that although a prisoner can was behind bars in a prison in Lewes when he realised be prosecuted for smuggling a mobile phone into prison, that he had a captive market, using the fact that there under the Offender Management Act 2007, or for possessing are drug addicts in the prison system. Before his a mobile phone in prison, under the Crime and Security imprisonment, he had been part of a small heroin and Act 2010, that item is retained at the taxpayer’s expense cocaine distribution ring based around Worthing. Once and then returned to the prisoner when they leave. What inside, he not only continued to run the business, issuing sort of message does that send out, particularly to the instructions to his team by mobile phone, but expanded victims of crime? That is why there is a genuine need for his operation to include the prison itself. Packages of this Bill. drugs were hidden in socks and thrown over the prison walls, to be collected by inmates at pre-arranged times. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): My hon. Friend’s Bill That was all made possible by the fact that he had says that such property can be either destroyed or access to a mobile phone. otherwise disposed of. I just wonder what he has in We then come to intimidation from prison. I have a mind by “otherwise disposed of”. Does he envisage constituent whose 16-year-old son was murdered by a prisons setting up a sideline selling things on eBay, for gang of 30 youths. Four of them were prosecuted, but example? one escaped to Pakistan. He has taunted my constituent from there on Facebook, telling her how much he was Stuart Andrew: No, I am most certainly not suggesting enjoying his freedom. That has been terribly difficult for that. However, I hope that the Bill will finally allow her, because it means that she can never really let go of prison governors to sell such property, and then donate that horrible day. Let us imagine, therefore, what it must the money to charities such as Victim Support, perhaps. be like to get that kind of intimidation from someone in In that way, the proceeds of those criminal activities prison. I think that it would add insult to injury. That could go back to the victims who have suffered at the happened two years ago, when it emerged that one of hands of those prisoners. Britain’s most dangerous gangsters was using Facebook to threaten his enemies from his high-security prison. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I add my The gang boss, who had been locked up for 35 years, congratulations to my hon. Friend on securing this slot. was able to correspond with up to 565 “friends” on Further to the proposals to sell those items and give the Facebook for more than two months, until the page was proceeds to charity, he might like to know that certain shut down. Some of the things he wrote were, frankly, charities can use old mobile phone handsets, in this astonishing. country and in developing countries. Might that be an He wrote: appropriate way of disposing of them? “I will be home one day and can’t wait to look into certain people’s eyes and see the fear of me being there. It’s good to have an outlet to let you know how I am, some of you will be in for a Stuart Andrew: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a wise good slagging and some have let me down badly and will be contribution. That suggestion is also of great merit. It named and shamed”. would be good that those items could be used in that The fact that this has come from within the person’s cell way, and we will certainly consider his suggestion as the is horrendous. Bill continues through the House. The taunting of victims’ families from prisons is The situation is not only ludicrous from a legal point another problem. One of the killers of 16-year-old Ben of view; it sends out entirely the wrong message. Kinsella used his Facebook page to taunt his victims’ Unauthorised items can prejudice safety and security in families from behind bars. He boasted that he was prisons, and there have been instances of their being “down but not out”, and for his profile picture he linked to serious crimes. Mobile phones, for example, mocked up a T-shirt emblazoned with his face and the have been used to organise crimes including murder, slogan “Free Jade Braithwaite”. From his cell, he wrote drug dealing and witness intimidation, and to access how he wanted “remote control” so that he could social networking sites. “mute or delete people when I need to”. When I was researching these matters, I was astonished Ben’s sister Brooke, who is 28, said at the time: to see the amount of mobile phone communication that “My family and I are appalled that Jade Braithwaite is able to had taken place from prisons. I have some examples operate a Facebook page from inside prison—and to use the site here. Murders have been carried out from prison. In to protest his innocence is really upsetting. We are disgusted by April 2006, Andrew Wanogho was shot dead in a London the comments on the site and feel it is a real insult to Ben’s street in the early hours. The culprit had a cast-iron memory.” alibi; he was in jail at the time. The fact that he was on We are letting down these families if we do not deal remand in Belmarsh prison had not prevented him from with this problem. I have more quotes, which I may co-ordinating the murder using a smuggled mobile phone, come back to later, but that gives a flavour of the real however. Even more shocking is the fact that he rang problem and its effect on the families of victims and on the victim’s mobile phone after the shooting to check the victims themselves. that his rival was dead. It is astonishing that such Phones today are not just instruments of communication; activities are going on in our prison system. In September they often have cameras and recording devices. Pictures 2007, Ryan Lloyd was jailed for life for the murder of can be taken from inside prison and communicated 581 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 582 outside, which could facilitate the opportunity to escape Jacob Rees-Mogg: What is the current practice when or help with smuggling drugs and other contraband items are not claimed on prisoners’ release? If they have into prison. What message does that send to victims, forgotten about their mobile telephones when they leave, particularly when we have to store these items if they can the items be destroyed at that point, or must they are found? kept ad infinitum regardless? There is a real effect on prison discipline. Some items Stuart Andrew: I understand that many thousands of of property may not be illicit in themselves but have not items are currently being held in storage that have not been authorised for possession by a prisoner, including been claimed. I do not know whether there is a time items that might have been smuggled in by visitors or limit—perhaps I ought to find out and write to the hon. obtained from another prisoner. Currently, too many Gentleman with some clarification—but I gather that at prisoners use the lack of legislation to their own advantage. least six months’ worth of items are in the prison Prison officers discover items, but prisoners know that system. no legislation is in place to allow their destruction and demand that the items are put in storage. That is bad When I visited the prison in Leeds, I saw that every not only for good order, but for the morale of staff who bit of space was being used. The prison gates have work in the prison. towers a bit like those at Windsor castle but, of course, nowhere near as glamorous, and even the turrets are Glyn Travis of the Prison Officers Association states: being used for storage. The staff are having to find every “The POA welcome this Bill and believe it is long overdue. corner that they can, which is frustrating for them, and, Staff do get frustrated when they work hard to confiscate contraband as I said earlier, it is having a knock-on effect on morale. and are then taunted by prisoners who use the loophole and force staff to store the property for them when they are released. This Jacob Rees-Mogg: That raises an interesting point. has a knock on effect and cost to the tax payer as property has to Given that all these things are being stored in any space be transferred if the offender is. If property is classed as illegal/ contraband, it should be destroyed and not stored. If the loophole that can be found, and given that they are being stored is not closed compensation claims may arise if property is lost.” in prisons, what happens if they are stolen? That must be quite a risk with all those criminals about. Are the If we do not pass the Bill today, we will let down the Government liable for the replacement of stolen items, people who work so hard for us in those prisons. and does the cost fall on the Government? The impact on resources within the prison system is another issue. When I was doing research for this Bill, I Stuart Andrew: I believe that the items are destroyed visited HMP Leeds—I hope it will prove to be the only after 12 months. As for their being stolen, my hon. time I go there—which is an extremely large and imposing Friend tests my knowledge. I did not ask prison officers Victorian building in which space is at a premium. I am that question, but perhaps I will go back to Leeds extremely grateful to all the prison staff who gave up a prison and ask for an answer. Again, I shall be happy to considerable amount of their time to talk me through give my hon. Friend some clarification. the process of prisoners entering the prison and to I hope all this demonstrates that although the Bill is explain the many issues they face daily. They also told not particularly extensive it is long overdue. It is intended me what the problems were in the prison system. to reverse an outrageous and perverse position by creating As many Members will know, when prisoners arrive a statutory power for governors to destroy or dispose of from court they must declare the items they have on unauthorised property. It is also retrospective in nature them, and those that are permitted in the prison are in that it enables the destruction, or other disposal, of listed on a card for the records. Prisoners are allowed to certain items of property that were seized prior to the keep some of the items on them, and some will be commencement of its powers and which remain unclaimed stored. That is legitimate, and the Bill does not deal six months after commencement. This measure applies with those items. Others, such as mobile phones, are not to cameras, sound-recording devices and electronic allowed, but as long as prisoners have declared them in communication devices, including mobile phones, and the court, they will be listed on a second card and stored their component parts. It is illegal to take all those items until the prisoners are released. Storing the legitimate into prison, and they are items that cause particular items is demanding enough given the number of people concerns with prison security. who are involved in the prison system, but the pressure It is considered that this retrospective application is is increased by the fact that prison staff are forced to fair and in the public interest. It is a limited power, and store all the unauthorised items as well. It is estimated will finally enable the Prison Service to deal with the that storing the tens of thousands of mobile phones 41,000 mobile phones that are currently held in storage. alone costs about £20,000 a year. During the six-month period I have just mentioned, prisoners will be able to make representations against Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Are steps an item’s destruction. All such representations will be taken, or sanctions imposed, when people are found considered, but it is right that the power is given so we smuggling items into prison, and do prisoners who are can deal with this problem. found to have been receiving items inappropriately lose any privileges? Iain Stewart: Under clause 1, the governor or director of a prison may dispose of property where the ownership Stuart Andrew: In some cases restrictions are imposed, “cannot be ascertained.” Is there a defined process and but one wonders how many people are smuggling things time limit for that? I ask that because I am concerned into prisons and hiding them without being detected. that my hon. Friend’s otherwise excellent Bill may be Why would they fear, if they know that the items that undermined by there being a loophole that prisoners they have smuggled in may be stored? We want to send could exploit. He may not have the answer to my the clear message that it is not even worth trying, and question at his fingertips now, but I ask him to reflect I hope that that is what the Bill will do. on this point as the Bill progresses. 583 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 584

Stuart Andrew: We intend to consult as widely as and does a fantastic job in his constituency, as I know possible on what that time period should be. It is up to all too well. That has been emphasised today not only the person who wishes to claim an unattributable piece by the quality of his speech, but by his introducing such of property to prove that it belongs to them. If they an important measure, which many of my constituents cannot do so, the governor will be allowed to destroy it. will consider long overdue, as will many of his. In fact, I would go so far as to say that most of my constituents Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I support probably think that the measure was already in place my hon. Friend’s Bill, and I raise the following point and would not imagine that there would still be a need only to ensure we have a rigorous debate. While I accept to legislate for something that most people would that the state has the right to confiscate and destroy think common sense dictates should happen anyway. articles that are in themselves illegal, such as drugs, we It is therefore my great pleasure to support my hon. should be wary of giving powers to the state to confiscate Friend today. You, Mr Deputy Speaker, as a renowned and destroy, for its own purposes and profit, goods that parliamentarian, will know that for that reason I do not are not illegal, such as mobile phones. I raise this point intend to speak for too long in supporting the Bill. so my hon. Friend can give a satisfactory answer, and assure us that prisoners are a particular category in this I do not want to cover the ground my hon. Friend has respect, and that this is in no way the thin end of the already covered, because I think he set out perfectly wedge in conferring on the state powers that we would clearly not only the problem and its impact on victims not normally want it to be given. of crime, but how wrong it is that people can be given property that they should not have had in the first place. Stuart Andrew: My hon. Friend is right: we need to I will move on to some of the other points that I am not ensure that this Bill does not give powers that can be entirely sure he has considered in the Bill, but which taken too far. That is why prisoners will have an opportunity might be considered in Committee. I want to raise some to claim property and appeal for it not to be destroyed. of these issues because, before we talk about destroying We want to consult on this issue, in order to address the property that gets into prison in a way that it should concerns my hon. Friend raises and to make sure we get not, we really need to look at how it gets into prisons in the Bill absolutely right. the first place. If we want to tackle the problem of I hope I have succeeded in convincing colleagues of people having mobile phones, drugs, weapons—whatever the need for this Bill. it may be— in prison, it is important that, rather than focusing on what we do when they are caught with Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): There are them, we look at what we might do to stop them having two penal establishments in my constituency; one of them in the first place. Surely that would be better all them is an open prison, and the other is for young round. offenders. People who have been barred from attending Obviously, as I am sure we are all aware, there are a matches at the local football club have to go to the open number of ways that contraband stuff can end up in the prison when games are being played, and they take their hands of a prisoner. It can often be brought in by mobile phones with them and put them in a locker. Can people visiting the prisoners. It is sometimes secreted in my hon. Friend assure me that this measure will have no deliveries sent to prisoners, for example in books and unintended consequences, so that, although mobile phones other kinds of merchandise. Unfortunately, it is sometimes may be deemed unauthorised items, people will still be brought in through the collusion of prison officers able to take them when they leave? themselves, something we always need to be mindful of. Stuart Andrew: No, there should be no unintended consequences, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My hon. raising the point and will ensure that we double check Friend says it can come inside books. The search procedures all the points that have been raised on Second Reading. must be seriously lacking if that can happen. I wish to conclude by quoting Jean Taylor, the founder and chair of Families Fighting for Justice. She wrote to Philip Davies: My hon. Friend might well be right. me, stating: That is the point I want to get to, because although I “My opinion regarding the matter of a prisoner being given absolutely support what the Bill would do, I contend— back any illegal item on release from prison is that it is absurd. We I hope that the Minister will pay some attention to may as well give a criminal any items he steals from a property this—that we absolutely need to do more to stop such once he has served his time… If something is smuggled into material getting into prisons in the first place, and prison, it is therefore illegal, but it also can be used to further perhaps the Bill can be amended in Committee to taunt a victim’s family, who are already suffering, by means of phone calling them, if it is a phone, or leaving instructions to one reflect that. Some of the checks are not what they of their friends on the outside to fix a job for them.” should be. For example, there are what are known as I believe that the Bill is long overdue. We should deal BOSS chairs in prisons—body orifice scanners—that with this once and for all. We owe it to people in the are used to try to stop prisoners bringing stuff into Prison Service, to the governors, who frankly should prison with them at the time they are sentenced by have overall jurisdiction within the prisons, and, more secreting it in ever more ingenious and, it seems to me, importantly, to the victims of crimes. I commend the painful ways. The prisons have these body orifice scanners Bill to the House. to try and detect that, but occasionally they will not be working properly or have not been working for a few months and no one has bothered to have them repaired. 12.35 pm Alternatively, the prison officers may not have confidence Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I commend my hon. that the scanners can pick up everything that they Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for should. We should do much more to stop the stuff from bringing forward the Bill. He is my parliamentary neighbour getting through in the first place. 585 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 586

Things also get into prison by being thrown over the mobile phones was 40. She might want to make a longer wall for prisoners to collect on exercise. Lots of prisons intervention so that I can try to ascertain the figure for have nets to stop that from happening, but the nets drugs. should be more extensive. Dr Coffey: I commend my hon. Friend on the important Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I agree with my hon. and assiduous work that he has done on prisons. I know Friend. Would he extend his comments to drugs, which that he has visited many to observe the differing situations. are a serious issue in prisons? If someone who is not on It might also be useful to know the total figure for drugs becomes a prisoner, they have a good chance of mobile phones in proportion to the prison population getting on them while they are in prison. We have to and the percentage of prisons affected. I am not suggesting tackle that. that he provides that information now, but the Minister may wish to comment. It is shocking how many of these Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As effects are getting into prisons in the first place. my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey made clear, drugs getting into prison is a massive issue. They damage Philip Davies: If my hon. Friend is going to be so the people there, and the fact that so many people take kind in all her interventions, I will encourage her to drugs for the first time while they are in prison should make even lengthier ones in future. It seems from the appal us. There is also the intimidation among prisoners figures—I am only glancing at them—that at Hollesley as they trade this contraband stuff. Bay just one seizure of drugs was made. I made a point about nets, which should perhaps be We need to bear in mind two separate things. In the mandatory around prisons to make sure that things case of prisons with very high levels of seizure, one cannot be thrown over walls. All that is quite easy. might argue that it is because they have a bigger problem We know that prison staff are sometimes responsible than other prisons, but it is possibly because the authorities for stuff getting into prisons. That happens for a number are much better at finding these things and more assiduous of reasons. There is the normal reason of financial in dealing with the problem. The fact that my hon. corruption: some prison officers are tempted by the Friend’s prison had only one seizure may indicate that money they can make from allowing things into prison, they have got a grip of the problem there and it is not as which is always very sad. Lots of prisoners, particularly big as elsewhere; equally, it could be because they are long-term ones, can be very manipulative and find ever not as assiduous in finding these things. From my more ingenious ways of manipulating prison officers experience, which she was kind enough to mention, I into doing things and ensnaring them into traps. If a would be surprised if that prison had only one example prison officer goes out of their way to do a prisoner of drugs being in somebody’s cell that should not be a favour, which may seem small and innocuous in the there, but that is just a hunch and I am probably scheme of things, they have broken with procedure. The completely wrong. prisoner then feels that the officer is trapped and asks them to do ever more unacceptable things knowing that Jacob Rees-Mogg: Might my hon. Friend, without if the officer says anything they will be reported to the reading out the whole list, give us some of the highlights? authorities and may lose their job. Manipulative prisoners Does he have any idea of which prisons have a particularly sometimes lead prison officers astray in that way. bad problem, with the very highest number of seizures, or which ones have figures that are suspiciously low The Minister will know that, in an untypically timely because they are known to be high-security prisons with manner, I have already been bombarding him with particularly difficult prisoners inside them? Are there parliamentary questions. On one of his first days, I any lessons that we can draw from across the prison bombarded him with one that asked how many mobile estate as a whole? phones and drugs were seized from prisoners in every prison in each of the past two years. I have the list here. Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Although the Ministry of Justice and I have gone our Thankfully, he made a long enough intervention for me separate ways on many issues in the past two years, it is to quickly brush through the figures to see whether I without doubt one of the most helpful Departments in could find any particular highlights or lowlights. The giving proper answers to questions; I say that in all figures that instantly spring to mind as regards mobile seriousness. phone seizures are 265 at Altcourse prison, which I Typically, the Ministry gave a very full and thorough cannot say I am familiar with, and 231 at Pentonville, answer to my question. I can bore everybody rigid which I am much more familiar with. Those seem to be anyway without any props, but I shall resist the temptation the two highest figures. Altcourse also had a rather high to bore the Chamber by reading through how many number of drugs seizures. Several prisons have single things are confiscated from each prison. However, if figures for mobile phones. The lowest that I can see is anybody has a particular question about their local Blantyre House, which has just one, as do Low Newton, prison, I shall be able to help them. Morton Hall and Send, while some have two. There is a big discrepancy between 230-odd and just one or two. I Dr Thérèse Coffey: I would be very interested to can only reiterate that it is difficult to tell which prisons know the figures for Hollesley Bay and Warren Hill. we should be commending and which we should not.

Philip Davies: A more lengthy intervention would Mr Leigh: Prisons have always been like this. I know have helped, so that I could get to the right page. My that my hon. Friend is a deeply humane man who does hon. Friend is imagining that I am far more proficient not want to return to the era of prisons in the 1930s, in these matters. Having now killed a bit of time, I have when prisoners were prevented from meeting people managed to find that at Hollesley Bay the figure for except from behind a glass screen, or the 19th century, 587 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 588

[Mr Leigh] prison in the most recent year for which figures are available.”— [Official Report, 11 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 797W.] when prisoners were kept in solitary confinement. So The answer given was that two members of prison what are we going to do? He is right to draw the House’s staff were disciplined for conveying drugs into prison, attention to this. Can we hold the Under-Secretary to three for conveying mobile phones and five for other account? Our prisons are awash with drugs; surely he contraband, which is a total of 10. I am sure that should be responsible for ensuring, in a humane and a nobody present believes that the number of materials fair way, that there are proper searches so that we can that come in through that route is as low as that. We try to make some progress, which palpably, at the moment, need to do much better. we are not. The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) asked a similar question in March this year. He Philip Davies: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. asked the Secretary of State for Justice That is the point I am trying to make. There is a lot “how many prison officers were (a) accused of, (b) charged with, more that the prison authorities can do to stop these (c) prosecuted for and (d) convicted of smuggling drugs or other items getting into prison in the first place. There should contraband into prisons in the most recent period for which be much wider coverage of nets to stop things being figures are available.”—[Official Report, 19 March 2012; Vol. 542, thrown over the wall. There should be better, more c. 533W.] frequent and more rigorous searches of prison officers In 2008, there were six convictions for drugs and none when they get into work. for any other form of contraband, but in many respects If we know that prison officers are often responsible that was the high water mark for this particular issue. for bringing this material into work, better checks of The figures given for this year to date—admittedly, the prison officers would seem to be an obvious step to question was asked in March, so perhaps we should not take. I am sure that the vast majority of prison officers be too unkind—show that only one prison officer has who carry out their job without ever indulging in such been convicted for smuggling drugs and only one for activity would welcome the prospect of any bad apples smuggling other contraband. We need to do much in their profession being rooted out. better than that. Given that so many contraband items come in as a On how widespread the problem is, I have given a result of visitations, why do we not have better and flavour of the number of seizures that have been made. more frequent use of closed visits, as is the case in other The director general of the Prison Service gave evidence countries, particularly the United States of America? to the Home Affairs Committee in 2000 in the aftermath The only way to stop visitors bringing things into of a large search at Blantyre House prison. He said that prison is by having closed visits whereby the visit takes staff and other prisoners had helped with the search, place through a glass screen. I am well aware that, and that he was very concerned about the occasionally, such things are what is known in the “frightening amount of contraband material we found”. jargon as risk-assessed, so that those prisoners who are You might have spotted, Mr Deputy Speaker, that that deemed a higher risk than others will be put on the is one of the prisons that has the lowest number of closed visit regime. seizures at the moment. Either there has been a revolution As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough in that prison and none of these things take place any (Mr Leigh) has made clear, whatever we are doing at more because of what happened back then, or the the moment is not working. All of this stuff is still in system of identifying and confiscating such things has prisons. It is far in excess of what should be tolerated, again become too slack. and we need to be much more robust in dealing with the According to a newspaper report in April this year, problem. We talk about human rights, the rights of prisoners and all those kinds of things, but I am not “a series of lightening raids on Britain’s toughest prisons” entirely sure that my hon. Friend was right when he said in the north-west of England led to search squads that I would not want us to go back to a 19th-century seizing prison regime, because I suspect that I probably would, “140 weapons, 1,760 pints of booze, 2,746 grams of cannabis, particularly if it was much more robust than the one we 113 grams of heroin and 41 grams of cocaine in a year-long have today. We talk about people’s human rights but, crackdown which also uncovered 322 mobile phones, 201 SIM given that so many prisoners are on drugs while they are cards and 308 chargers.” in prison and that so many of them take drugs for the If those are the figures for raids in one part of the first time while they are there, surely we should be country, the figures for the whole country must be looking after their best interests by doing much more to astonishing. According to the report, stop these things getting into prison in the first place. It “A total of 32 people were arrested over the finds which also cannot be beyond the will or the wit of the Government included 503 seizures of steroids and 173 more of equipment used or the prison authorities to stop this taking place. That to make or take drugs.” deals with how these things get into prison in the first My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey made a good place and I hope that the Government will take note. point about the storage of these things. Let me reiterate The number of prosecutions of staff for conveying that 322 mobile phones, 201 SIM cards and 308 chargers prohibited items into prison is, depressingly, very low. were seized. Do we really expect the prison authorities In the previous Parliament, David Howarth, the former to set up a locker room somewhere, with each item Member for Cambridge, asked the Secretary of State neatly identified with the person who had it, so that we for Justice can hand it back on their release from prison? In effect, “how many prison staff were charged with disciplinary or criminal that is to say, “It’s absolutely fine that you had this offences involving (a) importation of drugs, (b) importation of thing. I’m sorry you got caught, old chap. Here, have it mobile telephones and (c) importation of other contraband to a back. We have labelled it all properly.” 589 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 590

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Perhaps the Prison Service could but the prisoner is strip-searched both before and after also offer an answering service, so that when the mobiles they meet a visitor to ensure that no material is passed ring, messages can be taken and passed on to the from one to another. That may be a suggestion for him inmates. to explore, as Denmark thinks it helps to prevent contraband material from getting into prisons in the first place. Philip Davies: That may already be happening. Something I absolutely support my hon. Friend the Member for that I have learned in my short time in Parliament is Pudsey in his Bill, which makes sense to me and, I that all the things that one thinks could not possibly be believe, to most people. It cannot be right that prisoners’ happening are almost certainly happening somewhere. ill-gotten gains are returned to them when they should It would not be the greatest of surprises if that were not have had them in the first place. We have had far too happening. Even if it is not, perhaps on the back of my much focus in this country on the interests and rights of hon. Friend’s suggestion, it will start happening across prisoners, and the Bill is just one way, albeit a small way, the country. Any prison that refuses to take such messages of redressing the balance. It will probably affect a small will probably be taken to the European Court of Human number of people, the vast majority of whom have Rights. committed crimes so serious that they have been sent to The search teams targeted 14 prisons across the north- prison. That is no mean feat in itself in this country, west of England, so only 14 prisons generated that because it takes a pretty good effort for someone to get amount of contraband, including Liverpool, Preston, themselves into prison these days. They have to be Garth, Kirkham, Risley, Haverigg and Styal women’s either an incredibly serious offender or a very persistent prison. The article goes on to say: one. On top of that, the people in question will be those “The haul of hooch, made from fruit, bread, sugar and water, found to be in possession of illegal items while in included 371 pints found before Christmas.” prison, so they are the worst of the worst in the criminal Given that we know that there is a problem of that fraternity. If their spoils can be sold for the greater good scale, we ought be doing more to tackle it. The Bill to raise money for good causes or victims of crime, as would be a useful tool because it would ensure that my hon. Friend suggested, or can be destroyed in the people know that if something is confiscated, it will not interests of safety and security, I am all for it. be returned to them. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Does my hon. Friend agree that if I would like to emphasise what these things are used those things were sold, the best cause would be to cut for. People usually use mobile phones to carry on taxes for the hard-pressed British people? criminal activity while they are in prison. The trade in drugs and other illegal activities continue in prison. We Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. are, in effect, saying to people, “It is absolutely fine for The Government certainly should be cutting taxes, but I you to carry on your illegal, criminal activity in prison. fear that if we were to get into a ramble about the rate If we find your phone, don’t worry too much, because of taxation in this country you might rule me out of we will hand it back to you in the end with all the phone order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you know, I certainly do numbers still stored on it. You can have back the details not want to stray from the narrow subject of the Bill. of all your contacts and all the clients that you have I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey been supplying to over recent years. We will give all that for introducing the Bill, which is important and long back to you, saved on the SIM card. That’s no problem.” overdue. Most of my constituents would think that How on earth are we to tackle drug crime if we are these measures were already in place. I hope that it handing back to drug dealers their full contact lists on makes swift progress through this House and the other their mobile phones as soon as they leave prison? It place, and I am delighted to support it. honestly could not be made up, but that is what is happening. 1.3 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey did not Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): It is a pleasure to have touch a great deal on how contraband is found, whether the chance to speak about the Bill. Good private Members’ prisons need to get better at searching cells or whether Bills are a bit like buses—we do not see one for ages, the current system works well. My hon. Friend the then we see two in a row. I take this opportunity to pay Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) kindly said tribute to the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin that I visit a lot of prisons, and indeed I have visited Barwell), who achieved a Second Reading of an excellent prisons not just in the UK, although I have visited Bill on mental health, an issue that touches many of us plenty of those, but abroad. To be fair, the problem of personally or through our families, friends or constituents. contraband exists in prisons around the world. It is not I pay tribute also to the hon. Member for Pudsey just a UK problem. It exists even in some of the most (Stuart Andrew). I must give him a warning, though. rigorous prison regimes in the world. I commend to my He said in his short speech that he had been to a prison hon. Friend the Minister a visit to the Florida state on one occasion, to HMP Leeds, and hoped that it was prison to see what a prison system is really like, but even the only time that he would visit a prison. He is doing Florida, with its much more robust approach—and such a good job with the Bill that he may well be much cheaper, but I will not get sidetracked down that promoted to being a Minister in the Ministry of Justice, line—has the same problem. which would mean his visiting many prisons. However, I I do not know whether this is useful, but I visited a wish the Bill a safe passage. As you will gather, Mr Deputy prison in Denmark, a notoriously liberal regime that Speaker, the Opposition support Second Reading of hands condoms out to people who visit prisoners, locks the Bill. them in a room for an hour and lets them do what they One can always tell when a non-lawyer has drafted want. I do not commend that approach to the Minister. legislation because it is simple and concise, and this Bill Visitors do not go through any search mechanism at all, has only one clause. Perhaps a precedent has been set 591 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 592

[Sadiq Khan] was a word of caution about seeking to extend the power of the state and deprive prisoners of more of and future Bills will be drafted by non-lawyers for the their rights. Instructions from the Ministry of Justice, purposes of simplicity. I suspect that many people— however, are clear: prisoners are allowed to possess governors, officers, parliamentarians and others—will sufficient property to allow them welcome the Bill because of the clarity it provides about “to lead as normal and individual an existence as possible within the powers held by a governor or director. The aim of the constraints of the prison environment.” the legislation is clear and realistic. It will allow a governor of a prison, young offenders institution or Therefore, the hon. Member for Pudsey was speaking secure training centre to about unauthorised property, rather than property that “destroy or otherwise dispose of”— would normally be allowed as conducive to a prisoner having a life inside prison. including by way of sale, which I will come on to—any unauthorised property found in prisons. Unauthorised I have a couple of short questions. I do not need the property includes items that are unlawful to possess—hon. answers today, but it might be worth the hon. Gentleman Members have already discussed controlled drugs and and the Minister considering them in Committee. The offensive weapons—as well as things such as mobile first question comes from the instructions given to phones that, although not unlawful, could be used to prison governors—I have been sent a copy—which are threaten prison safety or security. quite clear that The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) was “the Governor is authorised to permanently confiscate the item right. Many of us, even those who claim to be experts, and to subsequently arrange for its safe and proper destruction. were probably not aware that the powers in the Prison In these instances where appropriate the relevant property card Act 1952 allow the confiscation of unauthorised property, needs to be updated accordingly.” but not its destruction. The thrust of the Bill is to It seems that instructions exist. In Committee, will the rectify that situation. It has been argued that items can hon. Gentleman and the Minister say whether the Bill be stored in a prison for a certain period and returned intends to clarify the position to avoid, for example, to the prisoner on release, but the cost of that storage civil action or compensation claims made by prisoners? falls on the National Offender Management Service. That does not make sense, especially in the current The second question worth discussing—if not today, environment. then in Committee—is whether the Bill will close concerns Mobile phones are some of the items most commonly expressed in relation to the case of Coleman. The found in prisons. In his excellent speech the hon. Member Minister might have had a chance consider that this for Pudsey provided examples of how mobile phones, week, but if he has not, he could save it for the Committee. which are obviously lawful outside prison, were used in My understanding is that a couple of changes have prison for illicit purposes, and damaged the quality of impacted on the way in which governors handle prisoners’ life for those outside, including victims of crime. The property in the light of the High Court ruling in the hon. Gentleman also touched on the fact that, for case of Coleman in 2009. Governors have been told that obvious reasons, many mobile phones are not attributable they do not have a general power to confiscate permanently to a particular person—a prisoner would not admit that or destroy a prisoner’s property. I appreciate the Minister a phone belonged to him or her, as that could lead to will not be able to answer now, but will the Bill address disciplinary action. It is therefore often not possible to that concern, which has been expressed by governors, return the phone to its “rightful” owner, and the Bill prison officers and lawful citizens outside prison? clarifies what should happen in such situations. Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber raised I want to address a couple of points raised by hon. the important question of what happens to unauthorised Members during the debate, but I will keep my comments property when it is sold. Will we encourage governors brief so that we can get the Bill through Second Reading. to give the proceeds to Victim Support or to the families As is often the case, much to my embarrassment I agree of victims, as the hon. Member for Pudsey suggests? It with much of what was said by the hon. Member for might be worth considering in Committee whether there Shipley. He mentioned the need to redouble efforts to is an appetite for ring-fencing the proceeds of sales stop unauthorised items getting into prisons, and although when disposing of unauthorised property. he was right to make reference to that, such things also happened under the watch of the previous Government. I do not want to detain the House any longer than Unlawful items getting into prison is not a new I need to, because I am keen to get the Bill through. I phenomenon. However, if we want to have closed visits conclude by saying two things. First, I again welcome or full body detectors, to carry out more searches—including the Minister to his position. I doubt whether he will intimate searches—of visitors, staff and prisoners, and take another Bill through the House that will involve give prisons the technology to stop mobile phones such a consensual approach from the Opposition. I ask being used, which is expensive although not particularly him please not expect that in relation to other Bills he difficult, we need investment and to spend resources on leads on—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Shipley those things. If the hon. Gentleman argues for proper supports the Government on this Bill, which is also investment in order to use technology and other means infrequent. to prevent illicit items from entering prison, the Opposition My second comment is that it is rare that a Member will support him. comes towards the top of the private Member’s Bill The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) was ballot, and rare that the Bill has cross-party support Chair of the Public Affairs Committee, of which I was and common sense. I congratulate the hon. Member for also a member, and I have huge respect for him. He Pudsey on choosing the Bill and on the importance he made a couple of interesting interventions, one of which attaches to the victims of crime, including his constituents. 593 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 594

1.12 pm offence, but are awaiting the resolution of the allegation against them, so their rights have to be respected. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I shall Nevertheless, withholding the right to bail has its be brief, because the Bill is short and because the consequences. When people are held on remand in context has been well set out by hon. Members. custody, they must surrender their personal effects. The On the scourge of mobile telephones, these phones authorities will collect those items in the custody area of are very often used as a communal resource by prisoners. the court, bag them up, and record and retain them in They will obtain SIM cards, which, as hon. Members the normal way. know, are very small and are sadly brought into prison The Bill deals with the position of unauthorised very easily. The SIM cards are then inserted into a articles where there is no reasonable explanation or communal phone secreted in a cell, which will be accessible excuse for them to be held. to prisoners during free association time, which is during the day. Of course, I am talking about category A to C prisons rather than open prisons. During the evenings, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am interested in what my hon. when there is a lockdown, if the phone is wanted, it can Friend is saying about remand prisoners. Would he be be swung on a piece of cloth out of the cell window to concerned if the law allowed for the destruction of an adjoining cell or to a lower floor. That is what is something found in the possession of a remand prisoner happening in our prisons currently. that was legal but unauthorised, in the event that he was then found not guilty? We know about wing phones, but the communal wing mobile phone has been with us for far too long. Although the Bill cannot deal with the problem of getting phones Mr Buckland: That is the point, and a very important and items into prison—nobody is pretending it can—I one too, and yes it would concern me. Therefore, the believe it gives another resource to the prison authorities question of the destruction of an item properly taken to deal effectively with contraband items when they are from a remand prisoner should not be resolved until the found. status of that remand prisoner has been dealt with by the court. I should like to raise two points on the Bill, the first of which is on the definition of “prisoner”. I see no definitional clause on whether the definition covers Philip Davies: I am slightly concerned by the direction remand prisoners. There are two types of prisoner: that my hon. Friend is going in. If a remand prisoner is convicted prisoners who are serving a sentence, or who not allowed a mobile phone in prison, but we do not have been convicted after a trial or pleaded guilty and threaten the same destruction, it might encourage other are awaiting sentence, and remand prisoners who have prisoners to target remand prisoners to help them with not yet been dealt with by the court or convicted of their criminal activity. If somebody is not allowed a anything. So some clarification of the term “prisoner” phone in prison, it should not matter whether they are a would be helpful, although it might well be that the remand prisoner or not. The solution is in their own Interpretation Act 1978 covers the definition and that hands: do not have a phone in prison. the extra clause is not needed. I would be grateful, however, if my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I (Stuart Andrew) and my hon. Friend the Minister could am referring to the specific power to destroy the phone, deal with that question. rather than to confiscate it. I entirely support moves to Secondly—this might not be a matter for prison confiscate contraband from prisoners, whether they be legislation or rules—there is another category of custodial on remand or convicted. The point that my hon. Friend area: the cell area of a court building, where a prisoner the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) will be detained either while awaiting their court hearing made concerned the question of destruction, and I or during the day in court. I understand that the prison think he was right to make it. If we are to respect the legislation and rules probably would not apply to a rights of people not convicted of any criminal offence, court building, but I seek some clarification and reassurance issues of destruction should await the resolution of the from my hon. Friends on the arrangements for dealing case. with unauthorised articles found in the possession of prisoners in the retaining or custody area of a court Philip Davies: I want to press my hon. Friend on this building. point. Many people on remand are on remand for very I see that the prison escort vehicle is covered. That, of short periods. The loss of their mobile phone for a day course, is within the jurisdiction of the governor and or so will not be much of a punishment at all, but they the prison rules. might be deterred from engaging in any other criminal activity within the prison, if they know that their phone Dr Thérèse Coffey: Does my hon. Friend think that will be destroyed. there is a difference between somebody who is being held in custody but who has not yet been convicted of a Mr Buckland: I hear what my hon. Friend says; I do crime, and somebody visiting court for an offence perhaps not agree with him. I think the mischief is cured by the committed while in prison? confiscation of the telephone. At the same time, we can balance that with respect for the rights of people who Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is right to raise a are acquitted of the offence they are facing. potential issue about the distinction between remand I do not want to detain the House unduly. I hope that prisoners and those who have been dealt with and I have illustrated two legitimate questions that should convicted. It is important that we uphold the rights of be answered during the passage of the Bill, which I fully remand prisoners. They have not been convicted of an support, and I am grateful for the House’s indulgence. 595 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 596

1.20 pm Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and, typically, he is on the ball when it comes to what is Iain Stewart: It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. going on in his constituency. According to the table that Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), I have here, there were 11 seizures of mobile phones in who is clearly very knowledgeable about such matters. Woodhill. More troublingly, however, the table also Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member shows that there were no seizures of any drugs whatever for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing his place in the between September last year and August this year. private Members’ ballot and on introducing this Bill. Perhaps my hon. Friend could use his next visit to gain I have a particular interest in this subject because a better understanding from the prison governor of why HMP Woodhill—one of the eight national high-security that was the case? Is it perhaps being claimed that the prisons holding category A prisoners—is in my constituency. prison is totally drug free? Next door to the prison is Oakhill secure training centre, which I understand would also be covered by the Bill. I had the privilege of visiting both establishments—like Iain Stewart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that other hon. Members, I was let out at the end of my suggestion. He gives me a good reason to revisit Woodhill. visit—and I was impressed by the commitment of both I was impressed by the facility; it is a modern prison to prisoner rehabilitation. It is also appropriate to put with advanced security procedures, and I am hoping on record my appreciation of everything that the staff that that is the reason for the low number of seizures. in such establishments do, in what can be very challenging Perhaps the design of a prison is a factor in this regard. circumstances. It is incumbent on us as legislators to My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey has visited ensure that they have the full range of powers at their Leeds, which is a Victorian establishment. It is possible disposal, so that they can perform their roles with that the geography of the prison estate has some bearing minimal interference. on this. The key point is that there is a mixed picture, and it has been acknowledged that a credible problem Although rehabilitation must be one goal of the exists. It is essential that we remove the loophole. criminal justice system, its primary role is to protect the public from people who pose a threat to the safety and I also want to make a few points on matters that have security of others. I was quite frankly appalled by some been raised in the debate today. In an earlier intervention of the examples that my hon. Friend the Member for on my hon. Friend, I asked about the definition that Pudsey read out of prisoners being able to organise would be used when ascertaining the ownership of crimes and intimidate victims and their families while property. I reiterate that the Bill needs to be absolutely inside. That is clearly ridiculous, so I certainly support clear, so that we do not inadvertently create another the Bill, which will remove the loophole that allows loophole. This is a matter that can be dealt with in prisoners to retain or claim back mobile phones or Committee. It would be perverse if we were to create a other equipment that enabled them to continue committing loophole in a Bill that has been designed to close one. such crimes. In that regard, it might be instructive to look at the In preparing for this debate I contacted the Prison situation north of the border. Quite rightly, the territorial Officers Association to get its perspective. The POA extent of the Bill covers only England and Wales, as certainly supports the Bill, as my hon. Friend said, but Scotland has a separate criminal justice system. New if the House will indulge me I would like to read a short guidelines were published in a statutory instrument last statement by the POA that highlights the need for the year—the Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions Bill: (Scotland) Rules 2011. They contain an extensive description of what happens to prisoners’ property in these “The loophole does create operational difficulties for staff. It circumstances, and it might be instructive to look at the also has the potential to lead to compensation claims from experience north of the border. Not all aspects of offenders and has hidden costs as staff have to record, store and devolution are beneficial, but one positive one is that, preserve contraband, for years in some cases. We would also point out the frustration this can cause to staff who work hard trying to when there are different models operating, we can look prevent contraband entering our prisons and when they do find it at the experiences of other parts of the United Kingdom and confiscate it offenders take great pleasure forcing them to and learn lessons from them. store in their private property.” Other hon. Members have talked about what should That is a succinct reason the Bill is so essential, and I be done with confiscated property and how it should be wish it speedy passage through the House. disposed of. The general view was that it should be sold on, but it will be interesting to debate whether the In preparing for the debate I also contacted the proceeds should be used to reduce the general burden of governor and deputy governor of HMP Woodhill to try taxation, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East to ascertain the scale of the problem there. Although Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) suggested, or to provide the number of confiscated phones at Woodhill is monetary reparation to victims and their families. That comparatively low—my hon. Friend the Member for debate should be held at a later stage, however. Shipley (Philip Davies) did not refer to it, but I think we are at the single-digit end of his table—that has a lot to I reiterate the point that I made to my hon. Friend the do with Woodhill’s success at seizing mobile phones and Member for Pudsey that many charities here and in the like in advance of prisoners going in. Therefore, the developing countries can put mobile phones to constructive number of phones confiscated while prisoners are there use. I urge the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my is comparatively small. However, I appreciate that the hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam picture is mixed, and I was quite concerned to hear that (Jeremy Wright) to have a think about how we could the figure runs into the hundreds at Pentonville and effectively use property that is to be disposed of under other prisons. the provisions. 597 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 598

Sadiq Khan: I welcome what the hon. Gentleman has governor can decide that he will allow a prisoner to have just said. There will be some very good prison governors a mobile telephone at one moment, but then change his who will dispose of those items in the way he suggests, mind the next moment because the right circumstances but there will be others who might be too busy or who have not been met. It is, I believe, the case that many perhaps do not realise that the option exists. Those people in prison are not as educationally advanced as governors could continue to leave confiscated property many people in the House of Commons, so they might sitting in their storerooms, or simply destroy it, without not fully understand the regulations that apply to them ever taking advantage of some of the innovative ideas or be able to cope with the differentiations that might that are being put forward. If the hon. Gentleman is apply. lucky enough to be chosen to serve on the Committee, As a starting-point—here I agree with my hon. Friend will he suggest to the Minister some ways of encouraging the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh)—I believe the less good governors to do these things? that we should always be enormously careful about extending the powers of the state to do something, and Iain Stewart: I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of we should be particularly careful where there is cross-party State for that suggestion. I think that I have just been support. In that case, there is often a popular view that volunteered to serve on the Committee. He makes a it is right to do something and people find it very hard good point. to object to it, but that is because they have forgotten The last thing I would want is to add to the administrative the first principle that they should have borne in mind burden of governors, who are incredibly busy people at the beginning of the process. My starting point, then, working in a very challenging environment, but this is is general suspicion of extending the powers of the state perhaps a discussion we could have with the relevant and general suspicion of undermining the rights of charities to see how it might operate in practice. It is property. certainly an idea worthy of further consideration. There is, of course, an exception. Going right back to Despite those few questions and concerns about the the Magna Carta again, people’s property can be taken Bill, I very much hope it gets its Second Reading today. away if a proper process is involved, if the system allows It is an important measure. It is simple, but the very it to be taken away and if the approach is fundamentally straightforward Bills are often the most effective. I just and proportionate. To quote the Magna Carta, it congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey says that “no free man” shall have certain penalties again on his good fortune in securing this debate, and applied—and, of course, by their very definition, prisoners I wish his Bill Godspeed in its later stages. are not free men; that is the whole point of them being in prison. The definition of a free man in the Magna 1.30 pm Carta is, of course, completely separate from our modern understanding, but I think a brief foray into the feudal Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I system would be unhelpful on this occasion. Here, it is add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member perhaps more interesting to look at the language literally for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on doing so well in the rather than to apply a mediaeval interpretation of “a lottery to get a private Member’s Bill so high up the list; free man”. The limitation on the protection of property perhaps he should participate in other lotteries and is that it is the protection of the property of a free man, then have millions to spend on good causes. and for many centuries the state has taken upon itself I also want to congratulate the Under-Secretary of the right—to some extent, the obligation—to take away State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth property from people as a form of penalty for their and Southam (Jeremy Wright), on his promotion. It is a misbehaviour. pleasure to speak in a debate to which I know he will We then come to the question of whether the penalty reply. I am grateful to him for asking me to speak on is appropriate and suitable or unduly harsh in relation Disraeli earlier this year. It was a great pleasure, but I to what the prisoner has done. There are some categories shall not talk about the late Earl of Beaconsfield today. where it will be incredibly easy to determine that. As we With this Bill, I want to go back to first principles. As have already established, something that is a criminal a House, we should always be careful when we do item of itself can be taken by the police—although that anything that undermines the rights of property. The is a different procedure—and destroyed by them. foundation of our state is the right of property—the Fortunately, it will not be the case that a prisoner who is right of people to enjoy the property they legitimately found with a stash of heroin on him will get it back at own. We can go back to the Magna Carta of 1215 when the end of his sentence, only to be arrested by the police it comes to the right of people not to have their property and have it taken off him again. That would create a taken away without proper process. bureaucratic muddle. Of course, it would not necessarily It is very easy, in looking at prisoners, to say that they be heroin—it could be any number of other illegal have given up all their rights, so that they do not have substances—but because some Members probably know this right either. It is a very tempting argument and in more about illegal substances than I do, I shall stick to some respects it is true. It is justly part of the punishment heroin for the time being. that some of prisoners’ rights are taken away. In my Then there is the question of armaments. Some of us view, it is right for them to lose the ability to vote in remember the break-out from Brixton prison when general elections. It is a right that they have lost, by the Lord Baker, I believe, was Home Secretary. Some IRA will of Parliament, and it should remain lost to them. It prisoners smuggled in a gun in the false bottom of a gets more complicated, however, when it comes to things shoe. Had it been found, as it should have been, it would that they are sometimes allowed to have and sometimes have been confiscated and undoubtedly not returned. not allowed to have. What we do not want is a prison However, there are grey areas. What if a prisoner has a regime that is fundamentally arbitrary, in which a prison replica gun? Replicas may be legal in the outside world, 599 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 600

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] were ensured that the money went into the Consolidated Fund. As I have said, in this respect I am very much the but they are obviously not encouraged in prison because Treasury stooge. they cause a certain amount of confusion, especially if they are good replicas. Prison officers would fear that a good replica might be a real gun. You would have to be Philip Davies: Has it occurred to my hon. Friend that a brave soul—and I know that you are a brave soul, it may be difficult to identify what is contraband in a Mr Deputy Speaker—to be certain that a replica gun prison cell and what is not? For example, a member of was genuinely a replica, and would not actually fire. the public may well go into a prison cell, observe the Although replica guns can currently be confiscated, it prisoner enjoying Sky TV and assume that it must be seems to me quite sensible to destroy them as well. contraband—that the prisoner must have smuggled Sky TV in—only to find that the prison authorities have actually allowed 4,070 prisoners to have Sky TV in their Mr Nuttall: Will my hon. Friend give way? cells. Jacob Rees-Mogg: It would be an honour. Jacob Rees-Mogg: As always, my hon. Friend comes Mr Nuttall: I am not sure that it is right for them to up with a shocking statistic, but the situation he described be destroyed. There are many reasons for which guns was, perhaps, even more worrying: members of the can be legally held in this country. Surely if a gun were public being able to wander into prisons and look into capable of being used, it could be sold and the money prisoners’ cells. If prisons are really like that, we face a sent to the victims of crime. more fundamental problem. Prisons should be good at keeping people in, but they also ought to keep some Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thought that a replica gun might people out, and I would have thought that members of not be of enormous value, and that it might therefore be the general public should not be waltzing in and out of easier to destroy it. Let us, however, take the example of prisons. Having said that, I agree with my hon. Friend’s a set of 18th-century duelling pistols. I do not know general point. whether those crop up frequently in prisons, but they The nub of my concern, however, is that there needs might. They are not very effective, the gunpowder that to be clarity, because we do not want to have circumstances is required for them has got a bit damp and the flint in which, for instance, a new governor is appointed and does not work perfectly, so they are not necessarily he decides to have a new rule on what is, and what is enormously dangerous items, and they are legal to hold not, allowed. That would lead to prisoners being uncertain in the outside world. My hon. Friend is right, however: about the rules. The new governor may think Sky TV if these were found— ought to be banned. He may be left-wing and not like Mr Murdoch and therefore think anything to do with Dr Thérèse Coffey: Will my hon. Friend give way? him should be banned, so he may decide to remove Sky TV and only allow people to watch the BBC. If that Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course. were the case, that would be a very fair uncertainty for the prisoner, however. Dr Coffey: I was just thinking about where the proceeds My hon. Friend and I hold many similar views, but of the sale could go. Currently, when prisoners’ property although I, too, believe prison ought to be a reasonably is sold after 12 months, the money goes to Nacro. It robust experience, I do not go all the way with him and may not be going to victims, but at least it helps to say prisoners should be denied all rights. They ought to ensure that people try not to reoffend. have a basic understanding of the general rule of law that allows them to live by a code that is set and certain, Jacob Rees-Mogg: When it comes to issues of this so they know from day to day what the situation will be kind, I am the ultimate Treasury stooge. I am very much and what they will be allowed to do. against hypothecation of any kind, ever. It is a I am keen to follow on from a point made by my hon. fundamentally bad principle for a Government to have. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland). All spending should come out of the Consolidated I should say first, however, that North East Somerset is Fund, and all money should go into the Consolidated looking forward to hearing from him this evening, and I Fund. That is why it is consolidated, after all. If things hope he will speak for a little longer in North East are put into specific pots, people sometimes find that Somerset because people have paid for their supper and they have more money in a pot than is actually necessary. they shall want a good after-dinner speech—and I am If items are confiscated and then sold, the money sure they will get one. He talked about remand, and the should go to the Treasury. remand issue is fundamental to my understanding of There is another reason, which is always important. how our criminal justice system works. People are innocent You may be aware, Mr Deputy Speaker, that some local until proved guilty. The state has decided to remand authorities have been accused of ramping up parking them because it is nervous that they may escape or it fines just so that they have more money to spend on deems them to be dangerous. The state is often wrong other things. A process that falls hard on the subject is about their guilt, however, and people on remand frequently used to raise revenue in a way that was never intended. turn out to be innocent of any offence, and are sometimes If the money went to the prison, or to certain areas able to leave court without a stain on their character. It within the prison, or to a cause that the governor is important to remember that, and to treat people on particularly liked, it might give governors a false incentive remand differently. I am not sure that the Bill does that to be particularly harsh in deciding what to confiscate. at present. I hope it will be amended in Committee to Such an incentive would be removed altogether if it ensure that there is no injustice to those on remand. 601 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 602

It is a fundamental principle of our justice system cake because it has a file in it will now be able to eat it, that people are innocent until proven guilty. That is rather than having to store it until the end of the often forgotten in respect of people on remand. Because sentence, by which time one has a nasty feeling the cake they are in prison, the establishment deems they must may have become rather stale, and therefore there would have done something wrong. That is deeply unsatisfactory. have been no point in preserving it and the file would They are as innocent as any other citizen in the land not have been put to use to aid escape. until the court has ruled and found them guilty. Therefore, There is a serious point in that. Innocent items can be to deny them things, or to destroy things that they could used for illicit activities. Things could be smuggled into legitimately hold if they had not been remanded, is prison that look completely innocuous by themselves unreasonable. If they are not guilty—and many of them but could be used as drugs paraphernalia or for the will not be guilty—they should not in normal circumstances production of alcohol. We do not want to have a system be denied the right to use, or to have, a mobile telephone. in which those things are returned so that they can be Just because they have had the misfortune to be charged used again, either inside or outside prison. We want to with an offence does not mean they should be punished ensure that items that can be used illicitly, even if they for breaching a regulation that in ordinary life would look innocent, can be taken away and destroyed by the never fall upon them. prison authorities. I have great confidence in the police, but we know When we look at the proposals overall, I think that from events earlier this week that the police are not we can be comfortable that there is the reasonable invariably impartial in the way they charge people or in balance between the rights of property and the punishment the information they put forward. We cannot put so of the individuals. I think that it is reasonable to say much trust in the state that we allow unreasonable that the individuals have sacrificed sufficient of their punishments to fall on those on remand beyond that liberty that goods that they should not possess can be which they have already suffered—their loss of liberty. taken away and destroyed. We have to be confident that They are innocent until they have been through a proper this will be a fair, rational and non-arbitrary process. I court process. note that the Bill provides for the Ministry to give I want to associate myself with some comments made guidance that prison governors would have to follow, by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip which is very important, because this is not an area for Davies). He discussed at modest length—indeed, extreme localism. It would be very unfair on prisoners who brevity by his standards—the question of how things might move prison or have a change of governor to find get into prison in the first place. He kept on talking that the regime had suddenly ended and become more about nets being put up. I thought the prisoners might arbitrary. be practising cricket, but it turns out that is not the case; The Bill does not tackle the concern about things the nets are there to catch contraband being thrown getting into prison in the first place and, in that context, over. We must surely have a Prison Service that is more this House and the Ministry should not think that, by effective in stopping items getting into prison in the first passing an Act of Parliament, we have solved the problem, place, whether they are mobile phones, drugs or other because the truth will be something like the reverse. items that are not allowed. This is merely an indication of a deeper, underlying How would that be done? I listened carefully to the malaise that is being tackled; it does not deal with the shadow Secretary of State, who said quite rightly that fundamental problem that a little netting will not solve. some of the items might cost money. However—this is I will not talk about body searches. I can think only that an argument one must treat with care—this might be people might take in little pieces of gold in their false one of those occasions when we could spend to save, teeth to be used as currency, but other things can be because stopping such items getting in could reduce the done, and one does not wish to dwell on them in this drug problem in prisons and the ability to run a criminal House, or indeed anywhere else for that matter. enterprise, which one hears about. There is the image It is important for us to recognise that the Bill is a from “The Italian Job” in which a Mr Big character, palliative rather than a cure; it tries to deal with a played rather resplendently by Noël Coward, is still problem that needs a separate answer. However, on running his criminal enterprise from prison, and standing balance it is a decent, sensible and prudent piece of regularly for the national anthem, as all true-born UK legislation, which will go well with the legislation that subjects ought always to do. The idea that a criminal we will be considering to enable the blocking of mobile gang can still be run from prison by a Mr Big is one that telephone signals in prisons. I thought had passed out, but we find it is happening because illicit mobile phones have been smuggled in. That combination of legislation may enable us to Therefore, if we spent some money trying to stop these sleep a little more securely in our beds, knowing that items getting into prisons in the first place, we might malefactors are safely locked up, incarcerated and put reduce the overall level of crime and so bring savings to away and that they cannot come out easily, or get their the whole country. We would be cutting off some of the minions to threaten us, because they do not have the top people organising it. necessary communications. We will know that the drugs I cannot finish my brief comments without talking problem will be reduced because not only the drugs about some of the items that might be taken into prison themselves but the associated paraphernalia will be and can now sensibly be confiscated, rather than stored. taken away. Furthermore, prisoners will not have their One always expects that the first thing smuggled into cakes, either. prison is a cake, because a file can always be hidden in it so that the prisoner can eat the cake and use the file to 1.50 pm saw through the bars. It would be a great relief to the Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As always, it is cake makers of Britain that their efforts will no longer a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member go to waste, because the prison officers who confiscate a for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who gave 603 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 604

[Mr David Nuttall] demonstrates the resourcefulness and ingenuity that is sometimes used in getting contraband into our prisons. this matter some historical context while putting forward As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip cogent arguments against the hypothecation of taxes, Davies) said, the way to deal with the problem of things which I am sure will have been heard on the Treasury being thrown over the walls may be to extend coverings Bench. He also highlighted the one area where there is a over open areas and put in netting. The first thing to do difficulty with the central thrust of the Bill: the impact is to make it more difficult for these illegal items to get on prisoners held on remand. There is a debate to be into prisons in the first place. As he observed, it is a had on how we deal with that category of prisoner. problem not only in this country but throughout the I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey world. (Stuart Andrew) for bringing the Bill before us and I Once these items find their way into our penal congratulate him on his success in the private Members’ establishments, the problem then arises of what to do Bills ballot. He was not, in fact, all that near the top of with them when they are confiscated. I am concerned the ballot; some outside the House may think that he about the cost of this to the public purse. My hon. came just after my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Friend commented on reports in the newspapers earlier Central (Gavin Barwell), who presented the previous this year about the lightning raids that were made on private Member’s Bill, but I think I am right in saying some of Britain’s prisons in the north-west of England, that my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey was 11th when hundreds of items were seized, including 322 mobile out of the hat. It is a great testament to him that he has phones, 201 SIM cards and 308 chargers, leaving aside persevered and not given up. the 371 pints of hooch. I hope that the illicit alcohol The situation is somewhat unusual in that we are in was thrown away, but all those mobile phones, chargers the happy position—I hope—of being able to shepherd and SIM cards would have needed to be stored somewhere. not one but two private Members’ Bills through the At a time when, as we all accept, public resources are House in a single Friday sitting. That may be approaching extremely scarce, it cannot be right that NOMS is put to a record, even if it does not actually break one. I do not the trouble of having to retain these items indefinitely. want to take up all the time available because I want to My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes hear from the Minister, who I am sure will give the Bill South (Iain Stewart) enlightened us on one of the the Government’s blessing. problems—I had not come across it before—namely communal wing mobile phones. The difficulty with Many of my constituents will be surprised that the such phones is that no one owns up to their ownership, loophole that the Bill addresses exists at all. They will so it is impossible to find out to whom that item should be amazed that contraband seized from prisoners has to be returned. be given back at the end of their sentences, but such is the state of the law at the moment. The Bill proposes to Notwithstanding the views of my hon. Friend the change the law so that smuggled items, whether mobile Member for North East Somerset on the hypothecation phones or other things, that are confiscated do not have of taxes, I think the public would appreciate the justice to be returned to inmates on release. of the situation if the proceeds from the sale of confiscated items, perhaps as a result of an auction, went towards The items come in different categories. In its “Conveyance the victims of crime and a charity that looks after them. and Possession of Prohibited Items and Other Related I appreciate his point that we might reach the happy Offences”document, the National Offender Management state of affairs whereby there is so much money in the Service helpfully categorises items according to seriousness fund that we will not know what to do with it, but I of offence. List A items are drugs, explosives, firearms hope that our efforts to cut down on the amount of or ammunition, or any other offensive weapon. I think contraband will mean that there is less of it about and we can all be satisfied that those are rightly put into the less of it to sell, so perhaps the fund will not have a most serious category. List B items are things such as surfeit of money after all. alcohol, mobile telephones, cameras and sound recording devices, or the constituent parts of those items, such as I hope that one of the Bill’s consequences will be SIM cards, mobile phone chargers and so on, as well as fewer mobile phones entering prisons. My hon. Friend other computer-related equipment such as discs, data the Member for Pudsey mentioned the fact that nowadays sticks and memory cards. List C consists of things such mobile phones are much more than a means of as tobacco, money, clothing, food and drink, letters, communication. In fact, I would go as far as saying that papers, books, and tools. they are, in all manner and means, mini-computers. They do much more than simply transmit messages. As These items are not always smuggled in in the ways he said, they often have recording devices and can that we have heard about so far—brought in by visitors, record videos and take photographs. They are of great by the prisoners themselves, or sometimes, sadly, through value, and if they were confiscated they could raise a the corruption of prison officers. Back in 2006, the considerable amount of money for the public purse, director general of the Prison Service, Mr Phil Wheatley, regardless of what we decide to do with it. gave evidence to the Public Accounts Committee, in the Another way that I would like us to clamp down on course of which he explained that in spite of all the contraband—this is my own pet scheme—is by increasing security that prison authorities put in at the entry to the sentence. If a prisoner is found to have arranged for prisons, there is sometimes little they can do to prevent contraband to be brought in, increasing their sentence items from getting into the prison. He gave an example: would, I think, be met with widespread public approval. “one of the things we found recently was a dead pigeon”. I want to deal with a specific point and hope that the One might think, “Adead pigeon—there’s nothing unusual Minister will touch on it. Clause 2(2) provides that the about that, it’s just fallen out of the sky,” but in fact it operative clause, clause 1, should not come into force was, he said, “stuffed full of contraband.” That until such day as the Secretary of State may order it by 605 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 606 statutory instrument. Since my arrival in this place, I staff assist in the bringing in of illicit items. He will have discovered that, sadly, dozens of Acts of Parliament accept that it is only a very small minority of prison and sections of Acts of Parliaments, having passed staff who do that. I think it is right for me to say, as this through all the procedures of this House and the other is my first opportunity to do so as Minister with place, sit on the statute book without ever being brought responsibility for prisons, that those who work in our into force. When I read clause 2(2), it set alarm bells prisons, whatever they do, have a difficult and challenging ringing. I sincerely hope that the Bill does not become job, and almost all of them do it extraordinarily well. one of those pieces of legislation. I hope that the We all have good reason to be grateful to them. The Bill Minister will reassure the House, notwithstanding will help them to do their job. For that reason, the clause 2(2), that an appropriate statutory instrument Government are in favour of it and hope that it succeeds. will be brought forward at the earliest opportunity, so The right hon. Member for Tooting rightly referred that this valuable Bill can be brought into force as soon to the Coleman case, and I can reassure him that the as possible. Bill addresses the problems that it raised. Of course, In conclusion, I support the Bill entirely. I think that from some time ago until 2009, when that case was it will make sense to most people outside the House. It decided, prison governors routinely destroyed property cannot be right that prisoners’ ill-gotten gains are returned as we hope they will now be able to do again. to them, because they should never have had them in My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon the first place. Many people, both inside and outside (Mr Buckland) raised a number of matters, and I am this House, feel that far too much time and attention is sure that some of them will be discussed at greater paid to the interests of prisoners. The Bill will go a length in Committee. Both he and my hon. Friend the small way towards redressing the balance. It will affect Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) only a small number of people, because the vast majority were concerned about the interests of remand prisoners. of people in this country will never be in prison. However, Of course, the items of property that the Bill will cover it sends out the message that we are on the side of the are not the ones that prisoners, remand or otherwise, victim of crime, not on the side of those who choose, of properly disclose to the prison when they arrive. Those their own free will, to break the law. If the spoils of items are held for them and returned to them when they prisoners’ activities can be sold for the greater good, so leave prison, whether following a not guilty verdict after much the better. I am delighted to support the Bill, I a period of remand or following a sentence served. The wish it well in Committee and I hope that it receives a items of property covered by the Bill are those that are Second Reading. I look forward to hearing from the not properly declared but are held illicitly while someone Minister. is in prison. In those circumstances, it seems to me entirely appropriate that the Bill should apply to remand 2.7 pm prisoners just as it will to sentenced prisoners. My hon. Friends the Members for Milton Keynes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice South (Iain Stewart) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) (Jeremy Wright): It is a pleasure to speak in this debate both made perfectly sensible points about the details and to welcome the mood of general consensus, which and definitions in the Bill, what we can learn from the was referred to by the right hon. Member for Tooting experience of Scottish prisons, which is a valid point, (Sadiq Khan). I accept his advice not to get used to it, and what we might do with items that have been confiscated. certainly as far as those on the Opposition Front Bench That will be for individual prison governors to determine, are concerned, but I will enjoy it while it lasts. but I am sure we will want them to consider all the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey excellent options that have been spoken about in the (Stuart Andrew) on the Bill that he has brought forward debate. and on his success in the ballot for private Members’ I turn to the precise contents of the Bill. As my hon. Bills. Both he and my hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Member for Pudsey explained, it would Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) have made it clear enable prison governors and directors to confiscate and that when one is successful in that ballot, one is never then destroy, dispose of or sell property that prisoners short of suggestions as to what one should do. I am sure have in their possession that they should not have. We the House will agree that both my hon. Friends have have talked about what those items might include, such chosen well. In presenting the Bill, my hon. Friend the as illicit drugs; items that can threaten prison security Member for Pudsey has provided the opportunity for a and good order, such as mobile phones, which are wide-ranging debate around its content. I will refer to unlawful to possess in prison; unauthorised items that some of the contributions that have been made by hon. have been adapted to conceal illicit items; and items Members in the course of that debate. that have been smuggled into the prison by various I will begin with my hon. Friend the Member for means. Shipley (Philip Davies), who can never resist the temptation Of course, it is right that all prisoners’ property needs to speak in a debate with “prisons” in the title, and did to be managed efficiently, effectively and with care, and not today. I am pleased to hear that he is happy with the that maintaining a prison’s security and good order is comprehensive nature of the replies that he gets from paramount. Prisoners have access to certain property the Ministry of Justice, even if, as I suspect, he is not legitimately, and as I have said, some items of property quite so happy with the content. will continue to be held for them by the prison if they My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said that we are checked in appropriately when a prisoner arrives. should do all that we can to prevent the arrival of illicit My hon. Friend mentioned his visit to Leeds prison. I items in prisons in the first place. I agree with him am glad that he enjoyed it and even more glad that they entirely about that. He referred to several of the causes, let him out at the end. What he said about that prison one of which, regrettably, is that members of prison was important. As I understand it, the arrangement is 607 Prisons (Property) Bill14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Prisons (Property) Bill 608

[Jeremy Wright] Members have spoken a little about where such items could be stored. Currently, those phones are in a central that on arrival, prisoners are provided with detailed storage facility, and they will remain there unless and information about which items of property they can until the prisoner reclaims them on release, which in retain in their possession. That information is displayed reality, very few do. In 2011, only 112 mobile phones across the prison, including in the residential units and were reclaimed from a total 41,000 currently being the library. Prisoners in that prison, and I hope across stored. Only 49% of those phones are attributable to the estate, should therefore be in no doubt at all about specific prisoners, and the rest cannot be returned to a what they are and are not allowed to possess. released prisoner. The cost of storing those phones is in I do not have time to go into the position of stored the region of £20,000 a year, and around 800 are seized property now, but I am sure we can discuss it further in every month. Committee if we need to. Of course, the Bill covers My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North made a items of property that a prisoner should not have, point about the public purse and he is right to be which are either illicit by their nature or not recorded on concerned. Whatever happens to those phones after a prisoner’s property card. We have talked a great deal they have been confiscated, the state will save considerable about mobile phones, and there are obvious reasons money in storage costs if we proceed along the lines why they should not be allowed in prison. It is a suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey. criminal offence to have a mobile phone while in prison, The Government therefore welcome the creation of a because they can be used for a variety of illegal purposes, statutory power that will enable the governor or director such as those about which Members have spoken. of a prison to The current arrangement for dealing with unauthorised “destroy or otherwise dispose of” property is that when it is discovered, it is confiscated unless it noxious, in which case it is destroyed, or unauthorised property found in the possession of a something such as an offensive weapon or controlled prisoner. As such items can be obtained while the drug, which is passed to the police. As we have discussed, prisoner is in transit between prisons, or between prisons other items may be confiscated only temporarily. The and courts, we also welcome the application of the consequence of that limitation is that property has to be power to prisoner escort vehicles as well as for property stored either locally or at the Prison Service’s central confiscated within a prison. My hon. Friend the Member facility until the prisoner is released from custody. If the for South Swindon raised a point about custody areas prisoner asks for an item to be returned, the prison in courts, and I am sure we can return to that matter in must return it, and as hon. Members have said, that Committee. cannot be right. The Government hope that the legislation All hon. Members who have spoken will agree that will improve the situation relating to the 2009 case to the current situation is unacceptable, and the Bill is a which I referred. good way of supplementing the Offender Management Hon. Members have referred to the variety of uses Act 2007 and the Crime and Security Act 2010, which that prisoners make of illicit mobile phones, and discussed introduced measures to reduce the smuggling of mobile what can be done about Facebook and the intimidation phones into prisons, and made it a criminal offence to of witnesses by those using mobile phones and other posses a phone in prison. There will be safeguards, and similar devices. Such devices can, of course, be used to I am conscious of the point raised by my hon. Friend store images and recordings of the prison, which can the Member for North East Somerset about the right of undermine security by facilitating escapes or the smuggling property and how that should not be infringed without of additional unauthorised items. good reason and due process. We will consider that Reference has been made to the Prisons (Interference issue, and put measures in place to ensure that prisoners with Wireless Telegraphy) Bill promoted by my hon. have the right to make representations about their property, Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), and to appeal decisions. and it is important to look at that in the context of As hon. Members have said, we are discussing property other measures that we can take to restrict the flow of that should not be in prison in the first place and that is illegal items into prison, and to confiscate items and used for a variety of nefarious purposes. We should do destroy or dispose of them. Where we can do neither of anything we can to prevent that and the Bill makes a those things—this relates to my hon. Friend’s Bill—we significant contribution to that task. I commend the should at least try to restrict and hopefully prevent the Bill to the House and wish it a safe passage through this use of mobile phones in prison. House and the other place. Let us look again at the problems that prisons face Question put and agreed to. when storing confiscated items. The confiscated mobile phones must, of course, be kept somewhere, and hon. Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed. 609 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 General Anti Tax-Avoidance Principle 610 Bill General Anti Tax-Avoidance Principle Bill That goal is achieved by putting an economic test at the core of the Bill. It is principles-based, and asserts Second Reading that the GAntiP principle can be invoked, if it appears, having taken into account all the relevant circumstances relating to the economic substance of a transaction, 2.19 pm that tax is not being paid by the right person, or in the Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) right amount, or at the right place or time, or that it is (Lab): After extensive debate on two consensual Bills, I not being paid at all. The Bill would, therefore, for the have 11 minutes left in which to introduce this Bill, so first time in UK parliamentary history, overthrow the I will make the case as briefly as I can. In a sense, I rule in the so-called Duke of Westminster case. In that suppose this is round two after yesterday’s debate on tax famous 1936 ruling, Lord Tomlin said: avoidance, which was tabled by the Backbench Business “Every man is entitled, if he can, to order his affairs so that the Committee. tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be”. Yesterday’s debate centred essentially on the divide between the Government’s proposal for the general My Bill would change that principle, which has underpinned anti-abuse rule and my alternative proposal for the the tax avoidance activities of the accounting, legal and General Anti Tax-Avoidance Principle Bill. It might banking professions for three quarters of a century, and seem that there is not a significant difference between the pre-war culture of abuse that has been swept away the two, but there is. Several hon. Members made it in so many other areas of society would finally disappear clear yesterday that the GAAR is unacceptably narrow from tax. and over-restrictive in range, and therefore very unlikely That said, there is no disadvantage in the Bill for the to cover any more than the most egregious and extreme vast majority of UK taxpayers. The great majority of cases of tax abuse. Indeed, that is indirectly confirmed taxpayers do not avoid tax. For others who use certain by the Government’s economic impact assessment in tax arrangements, the Bill encourages HMRC to publish their consultation document, which states—extraordinarily guidelines for how such arrangements will be interpreted. —that the GAAR will have almost no measurable impact. As a result, the Bill would immediately increase tax By contrast, the Bill will have an impact, which might certainty—an important principle mentioned yesterday explain why I have only 11 minutes to move it. It will by the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker). tackle the problem of tax avoidance, which might be For those over whom doubt remains, the Bill would costing the UK—the figure is much-disputed—up to provide for a clearance mechanism whereby HMRC £25 billion a year. could be asked to provide prior indication of whether an arrangement would fall within the scope of tax avoidance. That process is intended to be helpful, quick Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will the right and binding. Not unreasonably, in exchange the taxpayer hon. Gentleman give way? would be expected to make a modest payment for the important provision of tax certainty, with a maximum Mr Meacher: No, I am not giving way because there charge of £1,000 plus VAT, or 5% of the potential tax is no time. involved in the arrangement. The fee would likely be This is the first time that the GAntiP principle has much lower than that for any accountant’s or lawyer’s been set out systematically in a Bill. As I said yesterday, advice, yet would deliver a certain outcome for the it was drafted by Richard Murphy, a founder of the Tax taxpayer, who would then be willing to live within the Justice Network, and a well respected tax accountant—he ruling. In addition, HMRC would also be encouraged is one of our foremost tax accountants. The first point under the Bill to publish anonymised rulings, so knowledge of difference between the Government’s proposal and of what might be considered tax avoidance would rapidly my Bill is that the latter includes national insurance, become known. VAT and other mainstream taxes within the scope of What would be the benefits of the Bill? First, it would tax avoidance. Inexplicably, the Government have seen outlaw tax avoidance, which is currently being exploited fit to leave VAT and national insurance, which are a on an industrial scale and which is now widely perceived substantial part of the tax system, out of their proposal, as a mounting public scandal. This GAntiP Bill would leaving them open to continuing abuse. address that situation; the Government’s severely limited Secondly, my Bill explicitly addresses the complex GAAR will certainly not. Secondly, because tax avoidance nature of tax avoidance. The Government’s proposal would be cut back significantly, considerably more tax appears to relate only to abuse within a particular tax. revenue would be collected, meaning that many services Under my Bill, however, shifting a source of income, now under threat from Government cuts could be saved. profit or gain from one category of tax to another is Alternatively, without any increase in public borrowing— included in the definition of tax avoidance. That would always a concern of the Chancellor—extra funding allow Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to challenge would be made available to give a significant boost to a transaction in which income is reported as capital, job creation, economic recovery and a turnaround towards which is a frequent form of seeking a tax advantage. economic growth, which is the Government’s central Under my Bill, transactions that should be liable to objective. income tax that are declared as subject to corporation Thirdly, as I have already noted, the UK tax system tax, income from employment declared as income from would be considerably more certain. Fourthly, the pressure an investment source, or income due for declaration in on accountants, lawyers and bankers to sell tax avoidance the UK declared elsewhere, could be considered as would be curtailed, because they and their clients would being within the range of tax avoidance and so be know that most of these schemes would fail. That subject to challenge by HMRC. would release significant resources for more productive 611 14 SEPTEMBER 2012 612

[Mr Meacher] NHS Cancer Services Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House use in the economy. Fifthly, my Bill would change the do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) rules of engagement for British companies away from competing over who can get the best advantage from the abuse of tax law, and towards competing over who 2.30 pm can provide the best price and quality of goods and Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): May services for their customers. That could only provide a I start this important debate by congratulating the valuable boost to Britain’s economic effort. Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend Sixthly, and perhaps most importantly, the Bill would the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), on her drastically change the culture in British society for the appointment to what many of us consider to be an better. Instead of one tiny section of society—the 1% at important position in Government? May I also pay a the top, the big corporations and banks—being widely warm tribute to her predecessor, the right hon. Member seen as continually ripping off the honest remainder of for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who did an the population, a new benchmark would be set declaring excellent job in understanding the issues and pushing that cheating on taxes is unacceptable and wrong, and the case for cancer care? We wish him well for the that honesty and fair play are the basis of a strong future. The all-party group on cancer, of which I am modern economy fit for the 21st century. The significance chair, looks forward to enjoying the same constructive of that in restoring faith in a Britain that we can all be relationship with the Minister. However, I secured today’s proud of should not be underestimated. For all those debate because we believe that after making excellent reasons, I commend my Bill to the House. progress on cancer care the Government now risk making a gross error, which could be very costly indeed, when it 2.29 pm comes to cancer treatment. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I congratulate As the Minister is new in her post, I will, if I may, the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton briefly provide some background information. Cancer (Mr Meacher) on his success in the private Members’ survival rates have steadily improved over the past ballot, in which I believe he came 18th. 40 years, but they still lag considerably behind those in Europe and in other countries. Comparisons are never Mr Meacher: Fourteenth. easy, but although we compare with, say, France when it comes to the four or five cancer centres of excellence, Mr Nuttall: Excellent; the right hon. Gentleman has it is generally accepted that we lag behind the rest of done well. Indeed, he has been particularly fortuitous in Europe. The Government have recognised and accepted another way, in that, as I think he mentioned yesterday, that point. In January last year, they set themselves the speaking opportunities in the Chamber are rather like target of saving an additional 5,000 lives by 2014-15, the No. 77 bus. We do not get many for a very long time but that would bring us up only to the European and then all of a sudden two or three come along at average, not even the best. once. The right hon. Gentleman— Why do we in this country trail behind the rest of Europe when it comes to cancer survival rates? In 2009, 2.30 pm the all-party group undertook a major inquiry into The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). cancer inequalities that looked at that very issue. What Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday we found was most revealing. We discovered that patients 19 October. in this country who make it to the one-year survival point stand as much chance as anybody on the continent of making it to five years. Where we fall down badly is Business without Debate in getting patients to the one-year survival point. That led to the conclusion, which is backed up by lots of BANK OF ENGLAND (APPOINTMENT OF evidence from those working in the NHS, that the NHS GOVERNOR) BILL is as good as any other health care system at treating cancer once it is detected, but very poor at detecting it Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (6 July), in the first place. It is a national disgrace that nearly one That the Bill be now read a Second time. quarter of all cancers in this country are detected only at A and E. That is far too late and it obviously affects Hon. Members: Object. survival rates. Debate to be resumed on Friday 19 October. The Minister will be fully aware that very rarely in life is there a golden key—an Act or policy through which one can find unbounded riches. However, when it comes to cancer, I would suggest to her that there is a golden key—earlier diagnosis. The earlier a cancer is detected, the greater the chance of survival and the better the survival rate. Our key recommendation from the 2009 report was the introduction of a one-year survival outcome measure, in order to get the local NHS to raise its game. There is no point in the Department of Health trying to micro- manage primary care trusts; it is better to put up in lights the one-year and five-year outcome measures and 613 NHS Cancer Services14 SEPTEMBER 2012 NHS Cancer Services 614 to get the local NHS to introduce the various measures at one year. The inclusion of cancer survival indicators and initiatives needed to encourage earlier diagnosis. in the COF is the best way of guaranteeing that CCGs Those measures could involve greater awareness, earlier prioritise early diagnosis. or better screening, better use of diagnostics or a NICE’s second objection related to the application of combination of those. We should leave it to the local survival data at local level. However, my understanding, PCTs, while encouraging them to put up in lights the from conversations with the National Cancer Intelligence one-year and five-year outcome measures. Such initiatives Network and others, is that cancer survival figures for at ground level would encourage earlier diagnosis, which CCGs can be produced—sliced up, if you like—once would result in better one-year and five-year survival the boundaries are known. At the very least, CCGs rates. could then be measured against one-year and five-year The all-party group campaigned hard on this issue. survival rates for breast, lung and colorectal cancer, and We raised it in Parliament and at our annual Britain so be included in the 2013-14 COF, thereby bringing it Against Cancer conference—which is the largest of its in line with the NHS outcomes framework. kind and which is often addressed by Secretaries of In our opinion, it is vital that survival indicators are State—and elsewhere. We had some success. We were included in the COF, but the all-party-group has also pleased to see the inclusion of one-year and five-year called for proxy measures such as staging and cancer- cancer survival rates for breast, lung and colorectal diagnosed A and E admissions to be included in the cancer as indicators in the national outcomes framework, COF to complement the one and five-year figures. We which, as the Minister knows, holds the NHS have been calling for this because of the smaller population Commissioning Board to account. sizes of CCGs compared to what they are replacing—the Of the two big ideas in the Government’s NHS PCTs. Proxy measures would help to provide a more reforms—the focus on outcomes and the restructuring complete picture of what is happening on the ground, of the commissioning arrangements—we always thought and would help commissioners to identify the bottlenecks that the focus on outcomes was by far the most important. to early diagnosis. Will the Minister update us on the We believed that the heat, rather than light, generated progress made on these proxy measures? by the debate on commissioning structures was unfortunate, Before I conclude and while I have the Minister’s ear, to say the least. let me quickly raise two further points. Although perhaps In many respects, the national picture has been taken a little less urgently than in respect of our main concerns care of. We have the one-year and five-year figures in about the COF, the all-party group would like to see the NHS outcomes framework, which holds the NHS both the outcomes framework and the COF to include Commissioning Board to account. Locally, however, it all cancers. In our view, if all cancer patients are to is the clinical commissioning groups—the CCGs—that benefit from the Government’s correct focus on outcomes, will play a key role in delivering better cancer care. They it is vital that the rarer cancers be included, thereby are held to account by a different outcomes framework: narrowing the unacceptable survival gap between the the commissioning outcomes framework, known as the rarer and more common cancers. After all, breast, lung COF. and colorectal cancers account for only 40% of all new The COF will do much to set cancer priorities locally, cancers. I add that we are somewhat concerned about and it is therefore vital that we get this right. Up until Government talk about a composite cancer benchmark last month, we were led to believe that the five-year or indicator because we fear that such a composite survival indicator was to be included in the COF, and would hide failings perhaps in respect of rarer cancers the all-party group was lobbying hard to get the one-year by focusing on improvements made in the more common indicator included as well. After all, both derive from cancers. We need to narrow that unacceptable survival the same data set. We fully participated in the National gap between rarer and the more common cancers. Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence consultation in February this year. We learned last month, however, Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I join the hon. that the NICE COF advisory committee had decided Gentleman in welcoming the Under-Secretary of State not to recommend the inclusion of either the one-year for Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) or the five-year survival rates in the first iteration of the to her new role. COF. Instead, only the under-75 mortality rates were One way of treating more difficult cancers can be the recommended for inclusion. use of very specialist radiotherapy techniques. I have I suggest to the Minister that that is a major error. spoken before about stereotactic body radiation therapy Given all the evidence on how the measure of the and other treatments, which have the potential to improve one-year and five-year survival rates encourages earlier outcomes but because they are novel treatments they diagnosis, the Government should not allow this major are advised for use only in clinical trials. Many health step backwards in cancer care. The NHS Commissioning trusts are afraid to refer patients because there is no Board is, at this very moment, deciding on the make-up clinical evidence that they are successful for particular of the COF, and the all-party group is calling on it and cancers. There is a vicious circle here, which needs to be the Government to include the one-year and five-year broken so that rarer and harder-to-treat cancers can be cancer measures in this important outcomes framework. treated, at least at that test phase. NICE offered two reasons for the exclusion, but they simply do not stack up. First, it said that survival rates Mr Baron: The hon. Lady raises a very good point. I were dependent on the socio-economic status of an believe that cancer networks have a particularly important area. However, the all-party group has heard from a role when it comes to treatments that span CCGs such broad range of experts working in the NHS that the as radiotherapy. I know that local cancer networks most effective way to incentivise early diagnosis is to would help to look into those treatments order to measure the NHS against cancer survival rates, specifically address the concerns the hon. Lady has rightly raised. 615 NHS Cancer Services14 SEPTEMBER 2012 NHS Cancer Services 616

[Mr Baron] survival rates and those of the best in Europe. My hon. Friend spoke of the disappointment that many people Let me touch briefly on the second point, which is the feel about our survival rates, and said that everyone importance of improving the patient experience. The wanted them to improve. It is estimated that halving all-party group recommends that the national cancer that gap would save 5,000 more lives every year by patient experience survey should be conducted annually 2014-15. The strategy is intended to reflect the importance and should be included as an indicator in domain 4 of of improving outcomes through the five domains—or both the NHS outcomes framework and the COF, as we areas, as I would call them—of the NHS outcomes believe that that would be a solid way of getting the framework: preventing people from dying prematurely, NHS to focus on the importance of improving cancer improving the quality of life for people with long-term patients’ experience at all levels. conditions, helping people to recover from illness or In conclusion, important though those last two points injury, ensuring that people have a positive experience are, let me return to the central concern of the all-party of care, and treating and caring for people in a safe group and the point of this debate. We think it a very environment and protecting them from avoidable harm. bad decision to exclude the one-year and five-year In recognition of the fact that cancer is a big killer—more survival indicators from the COF, and we ask the than 130,000 people die of the disease each year—we Government to think again. It sends out the wrong have included seven cancer indicators in domain 1 of message, defies all the evidence and risks different parts the NHS outcomes framework. They cover the under-75 of the NHS focusing on different messages—the outcomes mortality rate from cancer and one and five-year survival framework on the one hand and the COF on the other. rates for three major cancer killers, namely colorectal, If one thinks about it, there is no reason why the one breast and lung cancer. In addition, two overarching and five-year measures cannot appear in the COF if indicators will include cancer data: potential years of they are in the outcomes framework; the numbers can life lost from causes considered amenable to health care, be sliced once the boundaries are known. and life expectancy at 75. Our message is clear: we risk a major traffic accident My hon. Friend has urged us previously to consider here, which really could set back cancer care and treatment other indicators that would reflect improvements in in this country. We raised this issue with Ministers prior survival rates for rarer cancers, and he mentioned them to the reshuffle, which took place outside this place, and again today. I can confirm that we have asked the we raise it again with the Minister in this Chamber now. London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine to We urge the Government to think again. A lot of cancer develop composite indicators that might allow patients are watching this space very closely. improvements in survival rates across all cancers to be assessed. We hope to be able to make a decision in time 2.44 pm for the NHS outcomes framework for 2013-14, which is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health due to be published later in the autumn. (Anna Soubry): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Mr Baron: I am heartened by what the Minister is for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing the saying, but does she appreciate our view that a composite debate. I am aware of the excellent work that he has index should complement the one and five-year survival done with the all-party parliamentary group and with indicators rather than replacing them? We fear that a cancer charities to promote the inclusion of relevant composite index will mask bad news on rarer cancers cancer indicators in the NHS, public health and with improvements on the more common cancers, which commissioning outcomes frameworks. would have greater force in the index because they are As you will know, Mr Deputy Speaker, there is a lot more numerous. of terminology in the Department of Health—to which I am very pleased to have been appointed—and I apologise Anna Soubry: I thank my hon. Friend for making at the outset for any jargon that is used. One thing is that point, and I certainly take it on board. If there is certain: my hon. Friend will be more than familiar with anything that I am not able to cover in the short time it. However, I hope to explain the position in as much that is available to me today, we will write to him; and, plain language as possible. as he knows, my door is always open so that we can I am fully aware of the frustration felt by my hon. continue the debate. It is important, and it is especially Friend, his all-party group and the cancer charities over important that we do things right. the recommendations from the National Institute for The NHS Commissioning Board will translate the Health and Clinical Excellence about the indicators for national outcomes goals for the NHS into measures the commissioning outcomes framework and the difficulties that are meaningful at a local level in the commissioning that are likely to occur in 2013-14, but I can assure him outcomes framework. The board authority is now working that a methodology for possible one-year and five-year with clinical commissioning groups and other stakeholder survival rate indicators for potential inclusion in COF is organisations to discuss the shape of the commissioning under way. I hope he will accept that that is good news, outcomes framework for 2013-14 and beyond. COF as is the fact that work is also under way to investigate will play an important role in driving up quality in the composite cancer survival indicators at both national new system. Covering £60 billion in services commissioned and clinical commissioning group level. I will say more by CCGs across the NHS, it will translate the NHS about that, but I wanted to begin by reassuring my hon. outcomes framework into clear, comparative data on Friend that we had taken his previous points fully on the quality of services that CCGs commission for their board. local populations and the outcomes achieved for patients. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government published Concerns have been expressed that the NICE COF “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer” in 2011. advisory group recommended only one indicator for It set out our ambition to halve the gap between England’s inclusion in COF and, in particular, that the group 617 NHS Cancer Services14 SEPTEMBER 2012 NHS Cancer Services 618 recommended no survival rate indicators. NICE’s advisory Anna Soubry: We will certainly examine the points group is independent of both the Department and the my hon. Friend raises. A letter or meeting between us NHS Commissioning Board. NICE was asked to give may be the best way to resolve things. advice on potential measures to include in the framework, Further work is required, and work is being undertaken based on the best available evidence. It is now for the to look at the feasibility of developing other measures, NHS Commissioning Board to decide on its final shape such as patient experience of cancer services, for possible for 2013-14. inclusion in COF for 2014-15. We would expect the The NHS Health and Social Care Information Centre board to work with NICE and other stakeholders to has been asked to work with the London School of establish priorities for development for the 2014-15 Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the Office for National COF and beyond. Statistics to develop a methodology for one-year and five-year survival rate indicators for potential inclusion We recognise that the challenge of cancer is huge. in COF. These will be composite indicators, because of Over 250,000 people in England are diagnosed with the difficulties associated with getting statistically valid cancer every year, and currently about 1.8 million people indicators for individual cancers at CCG level. are living with, and beyond, a cancer diagnosis. It is fair to say that cancer touches all our lives; if not our own Mr Baron: The national one-year and five-year figures individual life, then that of someone we know in our for the three main cancers have been calculated. They family, our circle of friends or the people we work with. must have been drawn from local figures. Experts in this Like many hon. Members, no doubt, I lost a member of area tell me that once the boundaries are known, it my family: my father died of cancer many years ago. It should be possible to slice those figures to show the is a pernicious disease, but great strides are being made one-year and five-year picture at a local level. all the time. However, despite improvements in the quality of cancer services, more can and should be done Anna Soubry: The difficulty is that the numbers in to improve outcomes for those afflicted by it. Regardless each CCG might be very small indeed, and therefore of the shape of the NHS and the commissioning outcomes the statistical benefit will be limited. It may well be frameworks in 2013-14, we are committed to delivering possible to look at the situation in respect of the health improvements in cancer survival rates, as set out in our and well-being boards, however; we might be able to strategy. look at this at a local authority level. Finally, I again pay tribute to my hon. Friend, his all-party group on cancer and the various charities for Mr Baron: The Minister is being very generous in all their work and their great contribution to the debate, giving way, and one of the purposes of Adjournment including this debate. I look forward to continuing that debates is to enable us to have a bit of a discussion. I debate and speaking with him so that I can answer all take on board her point, but the CCGs are larger than his questions and discuss all his ideas in full. was originally estimated. I would also say that we have Question put and agreed to. suggested the use of proxy measures such as staging and accident and emergency admissions figures to complement, but not replace, the one-year and five-year 2.55 pm figures, because they would give a more complete picture at the local level. House adjourned.

17WS Written Ministerial Statements14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

maximum level rose significantly under the previous Written Ministerial Administration. Our proposed changes will give business certainty about the maximum possible liability in respect Statements of an individual unfair dismissal claim (for example, someone who is paid £20,000 cannot be awarded more Friday 14 September 2012 than £20,000). Publishing the Government response to the call for evidence BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS on dismissal and the idea of compensated no-fault dismissal.

Employment Law Review Following analysis of the submissions and of international dismissal regulations, we have decided The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that we will not be pursuing the idea of compensated Skills (Vince Cable): The coalition Government made a no-fault dismissal. commitment to review employment legislation to ensure There were more than 250 responses to the call for it provides the flexibility for employers without evidence. The majority of respondents did not support compromising fairness for employees. We have reported no-fault dismissal and fewer than 40% of employers to Parliament at various points during the course of the thought that it would be beneficial to business. Concerns employment law review and the employment-related were raised about the potential negative consequences law red tape challenge, the steps we are taking to reform of the proposal, including the potential for it to damage UK employment legislation. employee morale (which in turn could decrease productivity) The Government have already taken significant steps and the risk that micro-businesses would find it more in reforming employment law including extending the difficult to recruit. Furthermore, no-fault dismissal would period for eligibility for unfair dismissal from one to not protect an employer from discrimination claims and two years, streamlining employment tribunals, creating so would not secure peace of mind. a universally portable Criminal Records Bureau check and removing the default retirement age. In contrast, respondents were almost universally positive We are today taking a number of further steps which towards settlement agreements, as this tool settles all will lead to further changes and reforms that will help claims giving employers confidence to resolve problems reduce burdens on, and increase certainty for, businesses, quickly. especially small businesses. We are seeking to address The issue of no-fault dismissal has been subject to both the perception and the realities of the burden of much debate in the press over recent months. Officials employment legislation through the employment law have examined the responses carefully, alongside assessing review, and are implementing a strong package of reforms. international comparisons, and summarised the feedback The set of measures which we are announcing today and our analysis in the Government response. The respond to business concerns that we need to do more Government have considered, or are already taking to help them tackle issues at the end of the employment forward, the majority of proposals from Adrian Beecroft’s life cycle. Building on work that has already been report on employment law, published earlier this year. implemented, such as the doubling of the qualifying period for unfair dismissal from one year to two years, The call for evidence also considered the ACAS code we are now seeking to put in place a range of further of practice on discipline and grievance. A number of measures to help businesses to effectively deal with issues were raised and we will work with ACAS to dismissal, which will: ensure these are addressed. In particular, there is a need Create certainty about employers’ liabilities; to make the code more accessible to small business and Provide clarity on dismissal and tribunal processes; clarify how their size and resources should be taken into Give business confidence to use settlement agreements to account. This includes making it clear that small businesses end employment relationships where this is necessary thereby can move straight to a final warning if an issue is having avoiding the tribunal process completely. a serious impact on their business. The Government are These measures will reduce risks to employers, increase amending the Business Link guidance to more accurately their flexibility to deal with workplace issues and decrease reflect the contents of the ACAS code and guidance. the costs of resolving disputes. Business will have the The revised guidance will be published shortly. support to resolve workplace disputes earlier and, if they proceed to employment tribunal, they will experience Publishing a consultation on the recommendations following a quicker, more efficient process. the “Fundamental Review of Employment Tribunal Rules” Publishing a consultation (“Ending the Employment by Mr Justice Underhill. Relationship”) to support the use of settlement agreements and reduce the unfair dismissal compensation cap. Mr Justice Underhill has made a number of recommendations to simplify and streamline the We are already taking a power in the Enterprise and employment tribunals system. We are today launching a Regulatory Reform (ERR) Bill to facilitate the greater 10-week consultation. That would allow us to implement use of settlement agreements, and to amend the cap on changes to the rules through secondary legislation next unfair dismissal awards. This consultation will seek year. views on the principles underpinning the use of settlement agreements, guidance on their use and model documents In addition to the consultation we will be introducing for use by employers. amendments to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform The consultation will also propose reducing the unfair Bill to implement three of the additional recommended dismissal compensation cap, including the option of a changes to primary legislation identified by Mr Justice cap of 12 months’ pay alongside an upper limit. This Underhill. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

Publishing the Government’s response to the call for evidence This Government are dedicated to the care and welfare on TUPE, and commitment to consult on potential changes. of the men and women of our armed forces, particularly The call for evidence closed earlier this year, and we those deployed on operations, which is reflected in the have completed our analysis of the responses. These comprehensive deployed welfare package. A key part of broadly reflect a number of common concerns from that package is ensuring the timely delivery of free business and business organisations, for example that: personal mail from family and friends. While unsolicited employee liability information should be provided by the mail is well-intentioned, mail sent by families and friends transferring organisation earlier than 14 days before transfer; is the most important to deployed personnel and is our there is no provision for the post-transfer harmonisation of absolute priority. Moreover, unsolicited mail sometimes terms and conditions of employment with existing employees; strains the logistic supply chain and can prevent other the regulations gold-plate the acquired rights directive by mail from families from getting through. The British including service provision changes in the scope; Forces’ Post Office (BFPO) estimates it will handle pensions are a concern in transfer situations for various approximately 22,500 parcels per week during the eight- reasons. (Pensions legislation is being reviewed separately week period between mid-October and mid-December, under the red tape challenge). more than twice the normal demand. This can impact We will be publishing the Government response to on personal mail, causing severe delays. Also delivering the call for evidence and signalling our intention to packages over the “final mile” to forward bases puts consult on potential changes. We will be developing increased pressure on essential in-theatre resources. proposals for a consultation later in the autumn. It is for these reasons that the MOD will be repeating Also in line with the introduction of employment its unsolicited mail campaign. Its success last year reduced tribunal fees next year, the Government will extend the the volume of unsolicited mail by half compared to current HM Courts and Tribunals Service system to previous years. Key to the success of this campaign is protect access to justice for those who cannot afford to encouraging the British public to show their support pay the fee. Given the concerns raised by business through one of the recognised MOD service charities. respondents to the employment tribunal fees consultation, All service personnel on operations over Christmas will such as whether to take into account access to savings receive a seasonal gift box from the charity, “uk4u and capital, the Government will undertake a review of Thanks!”. This charity works closely with the MOD, remissions as part of a wider review required for the using free space in the existing supply chain to deliver introduction of universal credit. The review will aim to the boxes well before Christmas, without impacting on produce a single remissions system for courts and tribunals the normal mail system. which is simpler to use, more cost-efficient and better I recognise that it might seem counter-intuitive to ask targeted at those who can afford to pay fees do so, while the British public not to send parcels to troops at continuing to provide access to the courts and tribunal Christmas, but to avoid the impact of unsolicited mail system to those who cannot. and to help prioritise mail to service personnel from their families I ask for your full support in directing the Reducing Audit Requirements (Update) public towards MOD recognised charities.

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): On Thursday 6 September 2012 I FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE laid a written statement before the House—Official Report, column 27WS—about the publication that day of the Government’s response to the October 2011 consultation European Stability Mechanism and German on audit exemptions and change of accounting framework. Constitutional Court Ruling That statement included an explanation that the legislative changes to enable companies to take advantage of the The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): On new and increased audit exemptions would come into 12 September the German constitutional court announced force from 1 October 2012, to be available for accounting its decision not to grant temporary injunctions relating years beginning on or after that date. to the proposed ratification in Germany of the European Regulations have now been made introducing those stability mechanism (ESM) treaty, the fiscal compact legislative changes. However, in fact the exemptions and the decision amending article 136 of the treaty on will be available for accounting years ending on or after the functioning of the European Union (TFEU). We 1 October 2012. The regulations are the Companies and welcome the court’s decision which will allow the German Limited Liability Partnerships (Accounts and Audit Government to proceed with its ratification of the ESM Exemptions and Change of Accounting Framework) treaty and the article 136 amendment decision. Regulations 2012 (SI 2012 No. 2301). The court added caveats to its decision: first that the Bundestag must be fully involved in the relevant decisions and give formal approval to use of the ESM; secondly DEFENCE that there should be a ceiling for German liability of ¤190 million and that this cannot be increased without Unsolicited Mail Campaign the Bundestag’s approval; and thirdly that the requirement of professional secrecy imposed on the members of the The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark ESM should not prevent the Bundestag from being kept Francois): I wish to inform the House about the annual fully informed on ESM decision-making processes. unsolicited mail campaign the Ministry of Defence During the Committee stage of the EU (Approval of (MOD) will be running in the lead up to Christmas Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill I referenced the (which is 100 days from this Sunday). anticipated 12 September German constitutional court 21WS Written Ministerial Statements14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS decision, stating that it related only to whether the ESM to concerns that the judiciary did not reflect the make-up treaty and the fiscal compact are compatible with the of society. The judicial diversity taskforce, comprising German constitution—10 September 2012, Official Report, the Ministry of Justice, senior members of the judiciary, column 63—to clarify this, the ruling was in relation to the Judicial Appointments Commission (JAC), the Bar six separate cases brought before the constitutional Council, the Law Society and Chartered Institute of court. These cases were directed primarily against the Legal Executives, was set up to take those recommendations ESM, which, it was contended, would among other forward. things jeopardise the constitutionally guaranteed right Significant progress has been made by members of the Bundestag to control the budget and the use of of the taskforce, having already completed 20 of the taxpayers’ money, and would turn a stability union into 53 recommendations. The taskforce’s recent achievements a transfer union. They also dealt with the fiscal compact include: and, in two of the cases, the decision amending article 136 Sharing diversity data and using it to develop a baseline TFEU to which the constitutional court gave the go-ahead against which to measure progress in increasing diversity; to ratification without conditions. Opportunities for judicial office being more widely promoted The Government’s position on the ESM remains. The to eligible members of the legal profession, and applicants ESM alone will not solve the eurozone crisis, but will being offered more robust support throughout the process; play an important role, providing the eurozone with a Innovative outreach activities being held to help dispel the permanent financial assistance mechanism to assist myths surrounding the appointments process; and eurozone member states in financial difficulty. And Proposals being included in the Crime and Courts Bill to financial stability in the eurozone is crucial to our own introduce flexible working patterns into the senior courts, economic recovery in the UK. and enabling the JAC to appoint a candidate from an under-represented group when two candidates are equal on merit. JUSTICE Even though we are making good progress, all members of the taskforce recognise that there is still a lot of work Judicial Diversity Taskforce (Progress Report) to be done and we must not lose this momentum. We will continue to work together to implement the remainder The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice of the recommendations and provide strong leadership (Chris Grayling): The judicial diversity taskforce has so that we start to see real change in this area. today published its second report, which outlines the Copies of the progress report have been placed in the progress achieved over the last year in driving forward Libraries of both Houses. change in this area. The document is also available online, at: In 2010, the advisory panel on judicial diversity made http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/policy/moj/ a number of recommendations aimed at increasing the improving-judicial-diversity-judicial-diversity- diversity of the judiciary and legal professions, in response taskforce-annual-report.

407W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 408W

Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Written Answers to website, which details action being taken by the taskforce created to help London Metropolitan University support Questions overseas students affected by the decision.

Friday 14 September 2012 Space Technology Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what UK space London Metropolitan University projects his Department is (a) fully and (b) partially funding; what plans he has to fund such projects in Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for each of the next five years; and if he will make a Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer statement; [119767] of 7 September 2012, Official Report, column 496W, on (2) which space projects his Department supports; London Metropolitan University, if he will publish the how much has been spent on each project to date; how key messages and supporting questions and answers much he plans to spend on each project in each of the designed to provide assurance to international next two years; what further projects are planned in students, overseas governments and other stakeholders each of the next two years; what discussions regarding the UK Border Agency’s decision to revoke (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have the university’s licence to sponsor non-EU students. had with HM Treasury on space issues; what the [120726] outcome was of such discussions; and if he will make a statement. [119770] Mr Willetts: Key messages and answers to general questions are already being promoted in the public Mr Willetts: The UK Space Agency has published a domain through information on the UK Border Agency brochure describing the national space programme and website and on the Higher Education Funding Council projects 2011/12. It is available on the agency website for England (HEFCE) website, which details action and explains more about each of the projects listed in being taken by the taskforce created to help London the following table. Most are national instrument Metropolitan University support overseas students affected contributions to European Space Agency or international by the decision. projects. Answers to specific questions from key stakeholders http://www.bis.gov.uk/ukspaceagency/publications and overseas governments are being addressed on an An updated document for 2012-13 is in preparation and individual basis and a helpline has been established at will be published shortly. London Metropolitan University to provide advice to students affected by the decision. We do not intend to The UK also invests directly through the European publish the detail of this correspondence or communication. Space Agency in a broad range of space projects in science, earth observation, telecommunications and Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for technology. These are listed on the UK Space Agency Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer website at: of 7 September 2012, Official Report, column 496W, on http://www.bis.gov.uk/ukspaceagency/missions London Metropolitan University, if he will publish the Beyond the current spending review period, budgets guidance issued to posts in British embassies and to have not been confirmed. partner organisations regarding the UK Border Agency’s decision to revoke the university’s licence to Space is a success area, and has grown through the sponsor non-EU students. [120727] recession at an average rate of almost 7.5% and now contributes £9.1 billion to the UK economy annually. Mr Willetts: We do not intend to publish Government Decisions will be made at the European Space Agency internal communications with British embassies or other Council at ministerial level in November 2012, and partner organisations in respect of London Metropolitan there is a significant opportunity for the UK to continue University. to invest in space projects that will provide economic Internal guidance that we have issued to date has benefit and aid the UK recovery. included: the current position on London Metropolitan I wrote to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in University’s Tier 4 sponsor licence and the reason for August 2012 setting out the range of projects that will its revocation, action being taken to address the situation be open to subscription at. Discussions between officials and guidance on how to respond to questions received. and HMT officials have taken place on the costs and Advice on all these points is already available in the benefits of these projects. At this time no firm decision public domain through information being published by on the level of UK commitment has been made, but a the UK Border Agency on their website and on the decision will be needed by November 2012.

Principal space projects and programmes managed by the UK Space Agency £ million Project spend to date (including estimate for 2012-13) Planned 2013-14 Planned 2014-15

JWST Mid IR Instrument 20 1 0.4 GAIA Data Processing and Analysis Consortium + 10.2 2 2 operations 409W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 410W

Principal space projects and programmes managed by the UK Space Agency £ million Project spend to date (including estimate for 2012-13) Planned 2013-14 Planned 2014-15

BepiColombo MIXS instrument 3.4 0.5 0.2 LISA Pathfinder Test Package 5.5 0.2 0.35 Swift instrument and operations 10.7 0.7 0.5 STEREO instrument and operations 3.2 0.15 0.15 Herschel SPIRE instrument and operations 18.9 0.7 0.4 Planck instruments and operations 19.3 1.1 0.7 Hinode instrument and operations 7.5 0.5 0.4 Solar Orbiter instruments 7 2.9 2.3 Euclid instruments 1.7 2.1 2.3 Future science mission studies 3.8 tbd tbd TechDemoSat-11 5 tbd tbd UKube-1 and follow-on 0.7 0.3 tbd ExoMars instruments and other national space 28.0 5.1 5.5 exploration NovaSAR2 7140 National Space Technology Programme3 10 tbd tbd Centre of Earth Observation Instrumentation 5.1 tbd tbd 1 Technology Strategy Board is lead funder. 2 Fresh funding announced as part of 2011 autumn statement. 3 £10 million from UK Space Agency plus additional contributions from industry, TSB, SEEDA, DSTL and research councils to reach circa £27 million total.

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for The United States was scheduled to be a major Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to partner in ExoMars, but withdrew in early February provide funding for space projects related to a future 2012. The Russian Federation space agency Roscosmos moon landing; what discussions the UK Space Agency has joined the programme and is expected to provide has had with the US administration on this matter; and key elements including the launches. if he will make a statement. [119768] ESA member states have agreed to support the ESA ExoMars programme as shown in the following table. Mr Willetts: No funds are allocated to develop missions Some increased financial support may be provided by for a future moon landing, and at present we have no some member states at the ESA ministerial meeting in firm plans to commit to a moon project. The UK Space November 2012. Most countries also have a national Agency is a member of the International Space Exploration programme to support instruments. Through ESA, member Co-ordination Group (ISECG) which includes NASA. states are studying options for Mars missions to follow ISECG is engaged in multi-lateral discussions on future ExoMars with the ultimate goal of returning samples of space exploration of the Moon, Mars and asteroids, as material from Mars for study in terrestrial laboratories. described on its website: Germany, Spain and Portugal are also funding studies http://www.globalspaceexploration.org/ with ESA of a proposed robotic lunar lander mission to be launched around 2018. A decision on whether to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for proceed with this project will also be discussed at the Business, Innovation and Skills what support he plans November ESA ministerial meeting. to provide to space exploration in each of the next five years; what recent reports he has received of assistance Participating ExoMars (¤ million— given to space exploration by the governments and states ExoMars (percentage) 2008 ec) administrations of (a) the US, (b) the Russian Austria 1.25 12.5 Federation and (c) each EU member state; and if he Belgium 2.61 26.1 [119769] will make a statement. Denmark 0.55 5.5 France 12.9 129.0 Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation Germany 8.96 89.6 and Skills, provides funding to the UK Space Agency Italy 27.82 278.2 for space activities. The one exploration project currently The 1.24 12.4 being funded through the European Space Agency (ESA) Netherlands is ExoMars. This is a mission to explore the atmosphere, Norway 0.26 2.6 surface and sub-surface of Mars and is scheduled to be Portugal 0.21 2.1 launched in two phases in 2016 and 2018. Spain 5.83 58.3 It is funded by the UK at an average of ¤14 million Sweden 0.62 6.2 per year. In addition there is a nationally funded UK Switzerland 4.38 43.8 activity of £5 million-£5.5 million per year to provide United 16.5 165.0 instruments for the ExoMars mission and to exploit the Kingdom science and technology of this and other Mars exploration Canada 1.91 19.1 missions. 411W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 412W

Mr Hurd: As part of his recent review of the Charities Participating ExoMars (¤ million— states ExoMars (percentage) 2008 ec) Act 2006 (‘Trusted and Independent: Giving charity back to charities’) Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Total 85.04 850.4 considered the future licensing and regulation of charitable subscribed collections. The Government is carefully considering all The UK Space Agency is a member of the International of Lord Hodgson’s recommendations, and is working Space Exploration Co-ordination Group which includes closely with the charity sector and other interested NASA. ISECG is engaged in multi-lateral discussions parties to consider the evidence and develop the on future space exploration of the Moon, Mars and Government’s response. asteroids, as described on its website: A full written response to Lord Hodgson’s report will http://www.globalspaceexploration.org/ be published later this year. NASA continues its Mars exploration programme, notably Government Departments: Public Consultation with the landing of Curiosity in August 2012, and is building a new generation of human space exploration Dr Huppert: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet vehicles to take astronauts beyond Earth orbit. Roscosmos Office whether he has considered providing a regularly is defining new robotic space exploration missions to updated online list of all ongoing Government the Moon and has recently announced that it may also consultations with links to the details of such develop a new human crew vehicle. consultations. [120692] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Maude [holding answer 13 September 2012]: A Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment list of Government consultations will be published on he has made of (a) the state of the space sector and GOV.UKwhich will be launched shortly as Departments (b) the development of the International Space migrate their existing websites to the new single domain. Innovation Centre; and if he will make a statement. [119771] Internet

Mr Willetts: The biennial ‘Size and Health of the UK Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Space Industry’ report, commissioned by the UK Space Office what estimate he has made of the number and Agency, assesses the UK space sector. The next report is proportion of (a) individuals and (b) households that due to be published later this month and will be accessible do not use the internet in each (i) region, (ii) local on our website; the last report can be found at: authority area and (iii) constituency in the UK. http://www.bis.gov.uk/ukspaceagency/publications [121064] Latest findings show that the total space-related UK turnover was £9.1 billion in 2010/11 (compared to Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the £7.5 billion in 2008/09), which represents a real growth responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have of 15.6% since 2008/09. The average annual growth rate asked the authority to reply. over the last two years surveyed has been 7.5%. Together Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 13 September 2012: these growth rates suggest that the UK space industry As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I has performed extremely well in difficult economic have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question circumstances. concerning what estimate has been made of the number and proportion of (a) individuals and (b) households that do not use The International Space Innovation Centre (ISIC)—in the Internet in each (i) region, (ii) local authority area and (iii) operation since April 2011—has not yet had a formal constituency in the UK. assessment but I receive regular reports on ongoing Estimates of Internet use by adults aged 16 years and over are activities, all of which demonstrate how it is already published quarterly by the Office for National Statistics and are making a substantial impact in helping to accelerate available on the Office for National Statistics website. These development of the UK’s Space economy. estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) and have coverage of the United Kingdom (UK). Estimates are available by region {Table 1) and two lower level geographical tiers (Tables 2 and 3). A copy of these tables has been placed in CABINET OFFICE the House of Commons library. The latest available estimates are in respect of 2012 Q2 (April to June 2012). Estimates of Internet Charitable Donations use by local authority area and constituency in the UK are not available. Mr Buckland: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Estimates of household Internet access are published on an Office (1) what recent assessment he has made of the annual basis by the Office for National Statistics and are also merits of introducing a licensing regime that treats available on the Office for National Statistics website. These commercial collectors equally with charities in respect estimates are derived from the Opinions and Lifestyle Survey. of house to house collections; and if he will make a Estimates are available by region, but for Great Britain only (Table 4). It is not possible, from this survey, to produce estimates statement; [120522] of household Internet access by local authority area or constituency. (2) what recent estimate his Department has made of the (a) set-up cost and (b) annual running cost of a Ministers new licensing scheme for house to house collections if national exemption orders were abolished; [120523] Owen Smith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (3) what recent estimate his Department has made of Office (1) how many hon. Members and peers were the cost to local authorities of processing applications appointed to Government posts (a) excluding and from charities for house to house collections if national (b) including Parliamentary Private Secretaries on exemption orders were abolished. [120524] (i) 10 September 2012 and (ii) 31 August 2012; [120854] 413W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 414W

(2) how many paid Ministers held a Government Nick Boles: Local authorities in England and Wales, post on (a) 10 September 2012 and (b) 31 August and the Mayor of London, can choose to charge the 2012; [120855] community infrastructure levy on new development in (3) what the total cost was of the salaries of paid their area. At the present time, six authorities have Ministerial appointments in each Government department approved charging schedules in place and are operating on (a) 10 September 2012 and (b) 31 August 2012; the levy. Rates for residential, retail and commercial [120856] uses range from £0 to £125 per square metre. Charges (4) how many (a) paid Cabinet Ministers including are set following consultation, public examination and the Lord Chancellor, (b) paid Ministers of State, independent approval. They must be demonstrated to (c) other paid Ministers heading Government be viable and should be kept under review by charging Departments or office holders listed in schedule 1, authorities. Part 1, of the Ministerial and Other Salaries Act 1975 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for who were not members of the Cabinet, (d) paid law Communities and Local Government what the highest officers and (e) paid whips there were on (i) 31 August fee is that a new self-builder will be required to pay 2012 and (ii) 10 September 2012; and what the total through the community infrastructure levy and the cost was of salaries for each category on each date. affordable home levy. [121031] [120857] Nick Boles: The amount payable by a self-builder Mr Maude [holding answer 13 September 2012]: I under the community infrastructure levy will vary depending refer the hon. Member to the list of the Government on the size of the property and the rates for residential published on the No. 10 website at: development set by a specific local authority. Current http://www.number10.gov.uk/the-coalition/the-government/ rates for residential development in areas that have which includes information on which Ministers are adopted the levy vary from £0 per to £105 per square unpaid. metre. An updated list of Parliamentary Private Secretaries Revenues from the community infrastructure levy will be published in due course. can be used to fund a range of infrastructure to support Details on the level of ministerial, salaries are set out development, but cannot be used to fund affordable in the ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975, as amended housing. In some areas local authorities may use a by the Ministerial and other Salaries Order 2011. section 106 planning obligation to collect contributions for affordable housing from small-scale new housing development. As set out in the National Planning Policy Framework, planning obligations should be fairly and CHURCH COMMISSIONERS reasonably related in scale and kind to the development, Leasehold and should not render the development unviable. We are currently reviewing whether there is a David Morris: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, disproportionate impact from the levy on self-build representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the housing. Church Commissioners have taken to ensure that the leasehold contracts they offer comply with property Housing: Construction law; and if he will make a statement. [121130] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners seek to Communities and Local Government how many new ensure that all of the property leases they grant comply homes were being built in developments of less than with the law, and with best practice. They are advised in five new housing units in the latest period for which this by professionally qualified independent solicitors figures are available. [121082] and surveyors, as well as professionally qualified in-house staff. Mr Prisk: This information is not held centrally. David Morris: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, Housing: Greater London representing the Church Commissioners, what the Church Commissioners’ policy is on right of arbitration Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for for its leaseholders; and if he will make a statement. Communities and Local Government what discussions [121131] he has had with the Mayor of London on his decision to target a reduction in the levels of severe Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners will overcrowding. [120603] consider the use of arbitration where the law or a lease Mr Prisk: The London Housing Strategy, published allows for this, and agree to this if the law or a lease in February 2010, includes a commitment to halve provides for this as a right. severe overcrowding among social tenants by 2016. The strategy was discussed in detail with my officials before publication. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Housing was devolved to the Mayor through the Community Infrastructure Levy Localism Act which came into effect in April this year. My Department continues to work closely with the John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Greater London Authority on housing matters where Communities and Local Government what the range is there is a shared interest. The framework for this relationship of community infrastructure levies being enforced in is provided by a memorandum of understanding which the UK. [121030] has been agreed between both organisations. 415W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 416W

Local Government: Trade Union Officials identifying traveller sites (particularly if a local authority has special or strict planning constraints across its Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State area). for Communities and Local Government what steps he The duty to cooperate requires local authorities to is taking to discourage the employment of full-time work together constructively, actively and on an ongoing trade union officials in local government. [119334] basis on planning for strategic cross-boundary matters in local plans. Local authorities are required to demonstrate Brandon Lewis: At a time when all councils need to that they have complied with the duty when their plans make sensible savings to protect front-line services and are examined at the independent local plan examination. help tackle the deficit inherited from the last administration, Failure to demonstrate compliance may mean that the Ministers would urge councillors to review the subsidies local plan may not pass the examination process. and funding being provided to trade unions at taxpayers’ expense. The Cabinet Office recently launched a formal Migration: Children consultation with civil service unions on reforming trade union facility time and facilities in the civil service. The consultation closed on 7 September 2012. Once my Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has reviewed the outcomes of the Cabinet Communities and Local Government what guidance Office consultation, we intend in due course to provide has been given to local authorities to safeguard specific guidance for local councils to help inform their children identified as in need or at risk as a result of own local reviews, reflecting that it is for local councils, migration of families when support with housing costs as employers, to decide how to manage their own local through (a) local housing allowance and (b) universal workforces. credit is reduced. [113447] We hope this guidance will give local authorities assurance and practical help on how they can review Mr Timpson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of and, if they see fit, cut back both so-called “pilgrims” the Department for Education. and the provision of other subsidies like free office facilities. However, a number of councils have already ’Statutory arrangements are in place to identify children undertaken reviews recently of facility time to cut costs, who are in need or at risk or who have special educational highlighting that local authorities already have discretion needs and their families. Should any families with such and powers to act without the permission of central children have to move as the result of changes to Government. housing allowances and the introduction of universal credit then schools and local authorities will have the We would encourage such matters to be debated duties to transfer information. openly in council meetings—with councillors declaring any prejudicial interests on union support, as required Schools are under a duty when a pupil changes under The Relevant Authorities (Disclosable Pecuniary school to transfer the pupil’s educational records and Interests) Regulations 2012. the Common Transfer File, which includes information Councils should ensure that arrangements for collecting on a child’s special educational needs. Where a child has union subscriptions through the payroll do not burden a statement of special educational needs moves between taxpayers. We want to raise awareness of the fact that authorities local authorities are under a duty to transfer councils are already allowed under law to levy a local the statement to the new authority and may also transfer administration charge to trade unions for providing this any opinion they have received under the Disabled service, or they simply can exercise their right not to Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) offer this payroll facility. Act 1986 that the child is disabled. Upon transfer of the statement, the new authority becomes responsible for My Department is currently considering the merits of maintaining the statement and for providing the special issuing an updated local government transparency code educational provision specified in it. to ensure greater transparency over the cost to local taxpayers of providing trade union facility time. No guidance has been specifically given to local authorities about children identified as in need or at risk Travellers as a result of families migration. Statutory guidance, ‘Working Together to Safeguard Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Children’ and the ‘Framework for the Assessment of Communities and Local Government what steps he is Children in Need and their Families’ provides clear taking to ensure local authorities co-operate in the guidance for professionals to follow when they suspect production of cross-authority plans on provision for a child may be suffering or likely to suffer harm, or is in the travelling community; and what sanctions he is need. Local authorities have a statutory duty under the considering for authorities which do not co-operate. Children Act 1989 to promote the welfare of children [120956] and carry out an assessment if they suspect a child may be suffering harm. Brandon Lewis: Local authorities must work together on planning issues that cross administrative boundaries This guidance is currently the subject of a national under the duty to cooperate introduced by the Localism consultation. While professionals’ basic responsibilities Act 2011. Planning policy for traveller sites makes clear will not change, revised guidance aims to clarify these that, under the duty, local authorities should consider roles and responsibilities and to reduce bureaucracy, the production of joint plans that set targets on a giving them more scope to focus firmly on the needs of cross-authority basis, to provide more flexibility in the child. 417W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 418W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr Francois: The number of people who will be employed by the Defence Business Services in 2014 is Media Ownership estimated at 1,672. Within this estimate around 13 posts will be located in Scotland, five in Northern Ireland, Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for two in Wales, seven overseas and the remaining 1,645 in Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans she England. This estimate is based on planned headcount has for the future regulation of media ownership. numbers as at 31 March 2014 which were agreed in Planning Round 12. It does not reflect additional savings [120645] that are currently being reviewed in the current annual Maria Miller [holding answer 13 September 2012]: budgeting cycle, or any potential changes, which may Regulation of media ownership is of paramount importance result from the transformation of corporate services to the health of our democracy and our media industries. within the Ministry of Defence. Lord Justice Leveson has been asked to consider media ownership as part of his report on the culture, practices Pay and ethics of the press. I will therefore wait to receive his report before considering any changes to the existing Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for regime. Defence what estimate he has made of the likely (a) Sport England highest, (b) median, (c) median full-time equivalent and (d) lowest full-time equivalent salary to be paid by Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department in 2012-13. [120833] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether she has any plans to increase the statutory powers of Sport Mr Francois [holding answer 13 September 2012]: I England. [120962] refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maria Miller: The Department has no plans to increase South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), on 18 June 2012, Sport England’s statutory powers. Official Report, column 654W). The figures for 2012-13 will not be available until after April 2013, and no meaningful estimate can be readily made in the meantime. DEFENCE Territorial Army Air Force

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence what plans he has to celebrate the centenary of how many (a) successful and (b) unsuccessful applications the creation of the Royal Air Force. [120816] to join the Territorial Army (TA) have been made since May 2010; and whether his Department plans to increase Mr Francois: Plans to celebrate the centenary of the funding for TA recruitment campaigns. [120590] Royal Air Force in 2018 have yet to be formulated. These celebrations are likely to form part of the wider Mr Francois [holding answer 12 September 2012]: commemoration of the first world war. There have been approximately 11,000 successful Armed Forces: Sexual Offences applications and 3,000 unsuccessful applications to join the Territorial Army (TA) since May 2010. As part of Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the Future Reserves 2020, the Army plan to spend £5 pursuant to the answer of 26 June 2012, Official million in financial year (FY) 2012-13 on the TA recruiting Report, column 195W, on armed forces: sexual campaign and are now drawing up plans for the marketing offences, how many cases of (a) rape and (b) sexual campaigns in FY 2013-14. assault were reported by (i) civilian staff and (ii) armed forces personnel in each service and the reserve forces UK National Codification Bureau in each of the last three years; and if he will make a statement. [119115] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Francois: I refer the hon. Member to the answers Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the given by my predecessor the Minister for the Armed potential effect on the UK’s NATO commitments of Forces, my right hon. Friend the Member for South planned reductions in spending on the UK National Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) on 25 June 2012, Official Codification Bureau; [119069] Report, column 3W, and on 26 June 2012, Official (2) how many jobs will be lost from (a) the UK Report, column 195W. Further information is not held National Codification Bureau and (b) Ministry of centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Defence Abbey Wood, Bristol in the period from 2012 cost. to 2015; [119070] Defence Business Services (3) what consultations he has held with trade unions about the proposed transfer of staff from the UK Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for National Codification Bureau to Ministry of Defence Defence if he will estimate the number of people who Abbey Wood, Bristol; [119071] will be employed by his Department’s Defence (4) how many jobs are being transferred from the Business Services in (a) Scotland, (b) England, (c) UK National Codification Bureau to Ministry of Northern Ireland and (d) Wales in 2014. [120308] Defence Abbey Wood, Bristol. [119072] 419W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 420W

Mr Francois: The UK currently meets all of its NATO Mr Laws: We have limited robust evidence available commitments with respect to codification and will continue on the level of financial education in schools in England to do so. across all age groups. Research suggests that financial Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S), currently education outcomes are difficult to measure and are employs approximately 17,400 people. Following the likely to be acquired long-term. Ofsted report on financial Strategic Defence and Security Review announcement education as part of their Personal Social Health and in October 2010, the total number of staff within DE&S Economic (PSHE) inspection and in 2010 noted that is expected to reduce to approximately 14,400 by the financial education provision was patchy, although they end of financial year 2014-15. The number of overall commented that where it was good pupils could grasp jobs that will be based at the DE&S Abbey Wood site in key concepts and terms and demonstrate the ability to 2015 has yet to be determined. make sound financial decisions; and they could apply knowledge and skills to real situations. Devolved The MOD is considering the future size and shape of Administrations adopt different approaches and financial the UK National Codification Bureau and the Engineering education is determined locally in Scotland whereas the and Through Life Support Team. A decision on the Welsh Assembly has laid down detailed learning outcomes. future of both organisations is expected to be announced Northern Ireland provides compulsory financial education shortly. Recognised trade union consultations are being within the curriculum from ages four to 14 as part of its undertaken. ’Mathematics with Financial Capability’ lessons.

Free School Meals EDUCATION 1 North West Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps his Department is taking to Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure full take-up of free school meals by eligible Education what funding (a) his Department and (b) its children. [112046] agencies have given to one North West. [119687] Mr Laws [holding answer 18 June 2012]: The Mr Laws: The Department and its Agencies have not Government is committed to increasing take-up of free provided any funding to an organisation by the title of 1 school meals for all pupils who are entitled to them. We North West. want disadvantaged children to benefit from a nutritious 16-19 Bursary Fund meal, and for their schools to receive Pupil Premium funding which will help them to help raise the attainment Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for of disadvantaged pupils. We have taken a number of Education how much education maintenance steps to achieve this aim. allowance was paid to residents of each local authority In addition to the work that we have funded the in 2010-11; and what the value was of discretionary School Food Trust to undertake on our behalf to increase 16-19 bursaries paid to residents of each local the take-up of school lunches, the Department encouraged authority in 2011-12. [119246] take-up of free school meals in November 2011 by sending registration messages to parents, schools and Mr Laws [holding answer 5 September 2012]: Details local authorities. of education maintenance allowance (EMA) payments The school census figures published on 21 June 2012 made to young people in local authorities in England show that registration for free school meals increased by during the academic year 2010/11 has been placed in 0.1% in both primary and secondary schools nationally. the House Libraries. Our funding for the School Food Trust enables it to The 2011/12 academic year is the first in which the carry out further work to improve the take-up of healthy 16-19 Bursary Fund has been operating. There are two school lunches, and specifically to increase take-up of types of bursary available under the fund: discretionary free school meals. The Trust has just published the payments and a separate £1,200 bursary for young results of its annual take-up survey, which shows that people from defined vulnerable groups. A breakdown is take-up of school lunches was 46.3% in primary schools not yet available on the proportion of the total Bursary and 39.8% in secondary schools. This represents an Fund paid as discretionary payments separate from the increase over 2010-11 of 2.2 percentage points in both proportion paid to vulnerable groups. During 2011/12, the primary and secondary sectors. This equates to in addition to the 16-19 Bursary Fund, transitional about 167,000 more pupils taking school lunches in EMA payments were paid to students who had received 2011-12 than in the previous financial year. EMA in previous years. Data on Bursary Fund payments and the EMA transitional arrangements during 2011/12 Finally, we have streamlined the application process are being collected at local level and will be available in for free school meals by developing an on-line Eligibility early 2013. Checking System, which allows local authorities to check data held by the Department for Work and Financial Services: Education Pensions, HM Revenue and Customs and the Home Office to establish a family’s free school meal eligibility Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for quickly. We are encouraging local authorities to increase Education what comparative assessment he has made their use of this resource, which as well as reducing of the level of financial education in schools in bureaucracy and cost at a local level, is also encouraging England and other nations; and if he will make a more parents to sign up their children for a free school statement. [118938] lunch. For those authorities that choose to use it, the 421W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 422W

Eligibility Checking Service allows parents to check Mr Laws [holding answer 12 September 2012]: The their own eligibility and to apply on-line for free school pupil premium was introduced in April 2011. Pupil meals. premium funding is provided to schools which have on roll pupils known to be eligible for free school meals Migration: Children (the deprivation premium); children in care who have been continuously looked after for at least six months (the looked after child premium); and children whose Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for parents are serving in the armed forces (the service child Education (1) what steps he has taken to identify premium). families with children identified as in need or at risk or who have special educational needs who may have to In financial year 2011-12, 1,340 pupils in Brigg and move home following a reduction in their family’s Goole constituency were eligible for either the deprivation entitlement to housing costs through (a) local housing premium or service child premium, attracting £645,000 allowance and (b) universal credit; [113446] of funding. It is not possible to identify, at constituency level, the number of pupils eligible for the looked after (2) what guidance has been given to local education child premium or the number of pupils eligible for the authorities to safeguard children identified as in need deprivation premium in alternative provision settings. or at risk as a result of migration of families when support with housing costs through (a) local housing In financial year 2011-12, 136,820 pupils in Yorkshire and the Humber were eligible for the deprivation, service allowance and (b) universal credit is reduced. [113445] child and looked after children premiums, attracting Mr Timpson: Statutory arrangements are in place to £65.644 million. identify children who are in need or at risk or who have The number of pupils eligible for the pupil premium special educational needs and their families. Should any in 2012-13 has not yet been confirmed. The provisional families with such children have to move as the result of estimate is that 2,130 pupils in Brigg and Goole constituency changes to housing allowances and the introduction of will be eligible for either the deprivation premium or the universal credit then schools and local authorities will service child premium and will attract £1.267 million of have the duties to transfer information. funding. This estimate is based on January 2011 school census data and data for pupils eligible for free school Schools are under a duty when a pupil changes meals since 2006. It reflects the decision to extend school to transfer the pupil’s educational records and eligibility for the deprivation premium to those eligible the Common Transfer File, which includes information for free school meals in the previous six years. on a child’s special educational needs. Where a child has a statement of special educational needs moves between The provisional estimate for Yorkshire and the Humber authorities local authorities are under a duty to transfer is that 197,200 pupils will be eligible for the deprivation, the statement to the new authority and may also transfer service child and looked after child premiums in the any opinion they have received under the Disabled financial year 2012-13, attracting £116.957 million. Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Schools: Dudley Act 1986 that the child is disabled. Upon transfer of the statement, the new authority becomes responsible for Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for maintaining the statement and for providing the special Education how many students (a) entering secondary educational provision specified in it. schools in Dudley and (b) from each local authority No guidance has been specifically given to local area are taking part in the summer school programme authorities about children identified as in need or at risk in 2012. [118927] as a result of families’ migration. Mr Laws: The Department does not currently have Statutory guidance, ‘Working Together to Safeguard information about the number of students taking part Children and the Framework for the Assessment of in the summer school programme in 2012, although a Children in Need and their Families’ provides clear list of secondary schools which opted into the programme guidance for professionals to follow when they suspect is available on the Department’s website at: a child may be suffering or likely to suffer harm, or is in http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/pupilsupport/premium/ need. Local authorities have a statutory duty under the summer/b00204241/ssprog Children Act 1989 to promote the welfare of children and carry out an assessment if they suspect a child may We will shortly be collecting information from secondary be suffering harm. schools about the number of students taking part this year. I shall write to the hon. Member once we have This guidance is currently the subject of a national received this information from schools. consultation. While professionals’ basic responsibilities will not change, revised guidance aims to clarify these Schools: Playing Fields roles and responsibilities and to reduce bureaucracy, giving them more scope to focus firmly on the needs of Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of the child. State for Education what his policy is on the sale of school playing fields; and if he will make a statement. Pupils: Disadvantaged [119661] Mr Laws: Strict controls concerning the disposal of Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for school playing fields are in place. Approval must be Education how many pupils have attracted payment sought from the Secretary of State before publicly funded of the pupil premium in (a) Brigg and Goole school playing fields can be sold. Decisions on applications constituency and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber in the to dispose of school land are not taken lightly. In every latest period for which figures are available. [120625] case Ministers take into account all relevant matters 423W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 424W before coming to a decision. This can include information Mr Laws: The operation of disciplinary procedures provided by the applicant, objectors, the school playing in schools, including those that result in suspension, is a field advisory panel and Department for Education matter for local determination. Accordingly the information officials, as well as consideration of what is best for requested on the number of teachers suspended from pupils’ education and their wider school life. teaching while facing criminal charges and the length of This Government has only approved sales if the those suspensions is not held centrally. school has closed, has merged, or it is proposed that Vocational Education: Qualifications equal or better facilities are put in their place. This is to ensure that any disposal of playing fields does not have Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for a detrimental effect on young people’s opportunity to Education what recent guidance his Department has access sporting provision. given to Ofsted inspectors following the BTECs review. [118203] Secondary Education: Birmingham Mr Laws: The Department has not issued any recent Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance to Ofsted on BTECs. Education how many vacant secondary school places there were in (a) Birmingham, Hall Green constituency and (b) Birmingham City Council area in each of the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE last five years for which figures are available. [111409] Electricity: Prices Mr Laws: The Department collects information from each local authority on the number of unfilled places in Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for maintained secondary schools (except special schools) Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the via an annual survey. The following table shows the average costs for domestic electricity customers living in number of unfilled places in maintained secondary (a) Merseyside, (b) Oxfordshire, (c) Cambridgeshire schools in Birmingham between 2007 and 2011, which and (d) Surrey who consumed the standard consumption is the most recent data available. The number of unfilled of 3,300 kWh per annum in each of the last three years. places are reported at local authority level and not [121069] broken down by constituency. Mr Hayes: The UK electricity market is divided into Unfilled places in maintained secondary schools (figures for 2010 and 2011 include unfilled places in Academies), Birmingham City Council regions based on Public Electricity Supply (PES) areas. Unfilled places Electricity suppliers vary prices between these regions but not within them, with the same tariffs available to 20071 3,107 all customers within the area. 20081 3,543 Counties can fall in multiple electricity supply regions, 20091 3,823 and so customers in any one county may be subject to 20102 4,026 different prices depending on their PES area. Following 20112 4,827 is a list of the requested counties and the electricity 1 Number of places relate to position as at January 2007, 2008 and supply regions in which they fall. 2009. 2 (a) Merseyside—Merseyside and North Wales electricity board Number of places relate to position as at May 2010 and May 2011. (MANWEB) Source: Surplus Places Survey and School Capacity Collection (b) Oxfordshire—Southern, West Midlands, East Midlands (c) Cambridgeshire—Eastern Teachers (d) Surrey—South Eastern Electricity Board (Seeboard), Southern DECC publishes in Quarterly Energy Prices average Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for annual domestic standard electricity bills based on standard Education whether he has considered licensing teachers consumption of 3,3O0kWh per annum for the above in the same way that members of the medical profession electricity supply regions on average, and broken down are licensed to practice. [120589] by payment type. The table below shows the overall average bills by PES area. Mr Laws [holding answer 12 September 2012]: We have no plans to introduce a requirement for teachers to £ hold a licence to practise. 2009 2010 2011 East 411 403 447 Teachers: Criminal Proceedings Midlands Eastern 417 407 446 Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Manweb 444 431 474 Education (1) how many teachers were suspended from Seeboard 416 408 438 teaching while facing criminal charges in the last five Southern 434 424 445 years; and how many such teachers were reinstated; West 419 409 449 [120599] Midlands (2) what the average length of time was for which a teacher facing criminal charges was suspended from Most customers in Oxfordshire will be paying ’Southern’ school prior to the matter being resolved in the courts prices and a final decision on their employment being made in Most customers in Surrey will be paying ’Seeboard’ the latest period for which figures are available. [120600] prices. 425W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 426W

Energy to support the documentation of human rights abuses. The support we provide will be consistent with our own Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for laws and values. Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his Department are employed to work exclusively on co-operative or mutual energy policy. [120739] HEALTH Gregory Barker [holding answer 13 September 2012]: Alcoholic Drinks: Prices There is no member of staff in the Department working exclusively on co-operative or mutual energy policy. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health There are, however, a number of teams in the Department what his policy is on a minimum price for alcohol. that are involved in co-operative and mutual policy as part of their work, including the Green Deal, Smart [120585] Meters, Energy Company Obligation and Renewable Anna Soubry: The Government’s approach to alcohol Heat teams. was explained in the Government’s Alcohol Strategy, published on 23 March. The Home Office has lead responsibility for alcohol pricing issues. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The strategy announced that we will reduce the availability of cheap alcohol by introducing a minimum South Sudan unit price. The Government will consult on the level of minimum unit price in the autumn. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Ambulance Services made of the ongoing negotiations between Sudan and South Sudan and related events in summer 2012; and Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for what role the Government plans to play in supporting Health how many ambulance trusts did not achieve the that process as it continues. [121029] category A8 standard in each of the last five years. [120946] Mark Simmonds: We regret that the two Governments were not able to reach full agreement by the UN Security Anna Soubry: The A8 target for ambulances states Council’s deadline of 2 August. But we welcome the that 75% of Category A (immediately life-threatening) deal the two sides have agreed on oil. and other steps calls should receive a response within eight minutes. that have been made, for example in de-escalating tensions The number of ambulance trusts which did not achieve at the border, in reducing inflammatory rhetoric, and in the A8 standard in each of the last five years is shown in withdrawing security forces from Abyei. We urge both the following table: Governments to show the political vision at the current round of talks to bridge the final gaps on security, Number of ambulance trusts not borders, citizenship, and the final status of Abyei. achieving A8 standard

Britain is offering financial and expert advisory support 2007-08 2 to the African Union (AU) High Level Implementation 2008-09 5 panel, who lead the facilitation of negotiations between 2009-10 5 the two countries. The British Special Representative is 2010-11 5 attending the current rounds of talks in Addis Ababa and our ambassadors and officials in both countries 2011-12 0 Source: continue to engage with government ministers, advisors Health and Social Care Information Centre Form KA34 and senior military officers on a regular basis, making clear to both that they should comply with the AU Cancer roadmap and UN Security Council resolution 2046 and reach agreement on all-outstanding issues. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress the Health and Social Care Information Syria Centre has made on the development of one and five year cancer survival rate indicators for inclusion in the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Commissioning Outcomes Framework 2013-14. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what non-lethal [119772] assistance is being provided to anti-government fighters in Syria. [121090] Norman Lamb: The Health and Social Care Information Centre is working with the London School of Hygiene Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to the statement and Tropical Medicine and the Office for National on Syria the Secretary of State for Foreign and Statistics (ONS) to develop a methodology for measuring Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member cancer survival at clinical commissioning group population for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), made to the House level for potential inclusion in the Commissioning Outcomes on 3 September 2012, Official Report, columns 53-68. Framework. These are complex measures that require Our non-lethal assistance is intended to include linkage of ONS population statistics with cancer registry communication equipment, water purification and power data and attribution to clinical commissioning groups, generators and is targeted at unarmed opposition groups as well as testing the robustness of the measures. It is and human rights activists. We have also provided training likely to take some months to complete this work. 427W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 428W

The NHS Commissioning Board will decide on the The breakdown can be found in the following table: content of the Commissioning Outcomes Framework and is expected to publish the list of measures for Country Dental school Numbers 2013-14 in the autumn. If not included in the 2013-14 Ireland Dublin Dental University Hospital, 16 framework, the board may choose a separate publication Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland route for the data that does exist, to ensure the information Ireland Cork University Dental School and 7 is available transparently to the public. Hospital Brazil Federal University of Minas Gerais 1 Dentistry Czech Charles University in Prague, Faculty 7 Republic of Medicine in Hradec Kralove Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Czech Masaryk University 1 Health how many graduates from UK dental schools Republic have not been allocated a place on the Dental Hungary University of Debrecen, Medical and 7 Foundation Training Programme for 2012-13. [R] Health Science Centre [121045] India Saurashtra University, Gujarat, India 1 Trinidad and University of the West Indies 1 Dr Poulter: 35 dental graduates from dental schools Tobago in England and Wales were unsuccessful in obtaining a dental foundation training (DFT1) place out of an Exercise overall total of 1,145 eligible applicants. The Postgraduate Dental Deans are seeking to make arrangements whereby Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health these dentists can maintain their skills pending the 2013 if he will consider introducing a public health DFT1 recruitment exercise, in which some training campaign to encourage people to walk, cycle or use places will be available from February 2013. other modes of transport involving physical activity; and if he will make a statement. [120950] Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of Anna Soubry: The Department promotes walking the relative skills, competencies and experience of (a) and cycling through the Change4Life campaign, and UK and (b) overseas dental graduates upon their works with the Department for Transport to encourage admission to the Dental Foundation Training active travel. Programme; and how any such assessment is made. [R] [121046] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to encourage NHS employees to Dr Poulter: In 2011-12 the Department commissioned walk, cycle or use other modes of transport involving the London postgraduate dental deanery to run the physical activity when travelling to and from work or as first national recruitment programme to dental foundation part of their working day. [120951] places. We are aware that 41 overseas dentists were successful at interview involving a test of communication Anna Soubry: The Department supports the promotion and clinical skills and management and leadership skills. of physical activity among national health service employees The individual trainers of foundation dentists will tailor through its contribution to the funding of the NHS the training they provide to meet the needs of individual 2012 Challenge for Sport and Physical Activity. trainees. Trainers receive advice from directors of foundation training programmes working under the direction of Fractures postgraduate dental deans.

Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost to the public purse is of training Health with reference to Age UK and the National Osteoporosis Society’s report Breaking Through: each graduate of a UK dental school. [R] [121047] Building Better Falls and Fracture Services in England, Dr Poulter: The information available to the Department if he will commission the National Institute for Health is for university dental schools in England. We estimate and Clinical Excellence to develop a quality standard that the cost of training undergraduates for the five on fractures excluding those of the hip and head. year Bachelor of Dental Surgery course is about £200,000, [120947] of which students, who are not eligible for support under the arrangements to help low income families, Norman Lamb: A quality standard on fractures, excluding can be expected to contribute £45,000. head and hip, was referred to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in March 2012 as part of a library of approximately 180 National Health Service Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Quality Standard topics. Health what number and proportion of places on the Dental Foundation Training Programme for 2012-13 have been allocated to dental graduates from overseas; General Practitioners and from which schools such students have graduated. [R] [121048] Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost of assessments centres overseen by the Dr Poulter: There are 951 placements, 41 of which are NHS Leadership Academy has been for staff being dental graduates from overseas. This is 4.3% of the total considered for accountable officer roles in the new number of placements. clinical commissioning groups. [120571] 429W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 430W

Anna Soubry: By the beginning of September, 493 consideration of the evidence. If a NHS commissioner accountable officer and chair applicants went through decides not to fund a drug or treatment, then it should the assessment centre and related development offer at explain the reason for coming to that decision. a cost of £1.75 million to the NHS Leadership Academy. General Practitioners: Telephone Services

Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for whether commissioning bodies funding specialist Health how many GP surgeries in (a) England, (b) the services are obliged to consider patient choice when west midlands and (c) Coventry use telephone considering funding applications. [120618] numbers that charge patients more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number to contact the Dr Poulter: Currently legal directions issued alongside NHS. [121043] the NHS constitution require primary care trusts to ensure that patients have a right to choice when they are Dr Poulter: The Department has made no assessment referred for their first consultant-led out-patient of the proportion of general practitioner surgeries in appointment. This is enabled by choose and book, England that use telephone numbers that charge patients which is an electronic referral and booking system that more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical primary care health professionals can use when offering number to contact the national health service. patients choice of specialist consultant-led outpatient The Department issued guidance and directions to appointments. NHS bodies in December 2009 on the cost of telephone calls, which prohibit the use of telephone numbers As a result of the Government health care reforms, which charge the patient more than the equivalent cost from April 2013 the NHS Commissioning Board will be of calling a geographical number to contact the NHS. It responsible for commissioning specialist services and is currently the responsibility of primary care trusts to will be required to have regard to the duties set out in ensure that local practices are compliant with the directions the Health and Social Care Act 2012. The Act requires and guidance. The Department issued further guidance the NHS Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning on 23 February 2012 clarifying these directions. groups to ″promote the involvement of patients, and their carers and Health Services: Hartlepool representatives (if any), in decisions which relate to— (a) the prevention or diagnosis of illness in the patients, or Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on (a) hospital and (b) their care or treatment.″ (b) health service reconfigurations in respect of (i) the University Hospital of Hartlepool and (ii) health services Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health provided to residents of Hartlepool constituency; and if (1) whether commissioning bodies funding specialist he will make a statement. [120953] services are required to accept the medical recommendations of clinicians applying for funding for their patients; Anna Soubry: The reconfiguration of health services [120619] is a matter for the national health service locally. (2) whether commissioning bodies funding specialist Where there is a compelling need to change the way services are permitted to refuse funding based on their in which services are delivered, and where they are own medical opinion. [120620] delivered from, change must be underpinned by the four tests for service reconfiguration. Namely, any local plans must demonstrate support Dr Poulter: The NHS constitution sets out the right from general practitioner commissioners, strengthened of patients to receive drugs and treatments that have public and patient engagement, clarity on the clinical been recommended by the National Institute for Health evidence base and support for patient choice. and Clinical Excellence (NICE) and that their doctors The Momentum: pathways to healthcare reconfiguration consider clinically appropriate for them. programme, which includes proposals for changes to However, at a strategic level, it is for national health services at the University Hospital of Hartlepool, has service commissioners to decide which services to fund been developed locally by the North Tees and Hartlepool for their local population. Local healthcare priorities NHS Foundation Trust, in liaison with the Tees primary will vary from area to area. There are no specific rules care trust cluster, to implement the recommendations or guidance for commissioners that sets out a hierarchy made by the Independent Reconfiguration Panel in of clinical evidence and advice to use when seeking to 2006. make funding decisions. Hospitals: Infectious Diseases In the absence of NICE technology appraisal guidance on a particular treatment, it is for local NHS commissioners Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for to make funding decisions based on an assessment of Health what the infection rate was in NHS hospitals in the available clinical evidence to support the benefits (a) Coventry, (b) the west midlands and (c) England and cost effectiveness of a particular treatment and on in each of the last five years. [121035] the basis of an individual patient’s clinical circumstances. The NHS constitution also sets out patients’ right to Dr Poulter: For the years that the data are available, expect local decisions on the funding of drugs and the information requested is set out in the following treatments to be made rationally, following a proper table: 431W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 432W

Numbers of infections—total reported specimens attributed to Coventry PCO, west midlands and England April 2007 to March 2008 April 2008 to March 2009 April 2009 to March 2010 Coventry West Coventry West Coventry West PCO midlands England PCO midlands England PCO midlands England

MRSA bacteraemia 24 510 4,451 13 307 2,935 6 161 1,898 Clostridium difficile 337 6,959 55,498 164 4,074 36,095 121 3,039 25,604 infection MSSA bacteraemia —————————

April 2010 to March 2011 April 2011 to March 2012 Coventry PCO West midlands England Coventry PCO West midlands England

MRSA bacteraemia 1 156 1,481 4 97 1,114 Clostridium difficile 153 2,626 21,707 148 2,383 18,005 Infection MSSA bacteraemia ———489358,708 Notes: 1. The numbers of infections shown in the table are total reported specimens attributed to primary care organisations (PCO). 2. Mandatory surveillance of E.coli began in June 2011. Data before that date are not available. 3. Mandatory surveillance of MSSA bloodstream infections began in January 2011. Data before that date are not available. 4. Data prior to 2008 was collected in a different way and may not be strictly comparable.

Hospitals: Waiting Lists Primary care: Prescription items dispensed in the community in England Period Net ingredient cost (£000) Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many operations were cancelled in (a) Coventry, (b) the West Midlands and (c) England Total1 86,332.7 in each of the last five years. [121034] 1 Total may not sum due to rounding. Source: Prescribing Analysis and CosT tool (PACT) system supplied by the NHS Information Anna Soubry: The information is shown in the following Centre. table: Secondary care: Medicines supplied in hospitals in England Period Net ingredient cost (£000) Number of elective operations cancelled at the last minute for non clinical reasons 2010 (May-December) 1,195.1 University 2011 (January-December) 1,800.5 Hospitals Coventry and West 2012 (January-March) 428.5 Warwickshire Midlands NHS Trust SHA England Total1 3,424.0 1 2007-08 303 5,587 57,382 Total may not sum due to rounding. Source: IMS HEALTH: Hospital Pharmacy Audit supplied by the NHS Information Centre. 2008-09 634 6,444 63,644 2009-10 537 6,589 62,296 2010-11 612 6,434 58,297 HOME DEPARTMENT 2011-12 575 6,077 57,087 2012-13 (Q1) 117 1,564 14,184 Firearms: Licensing Source: Department of Health datasets QMCO Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people under the age of Hyperactivity: Drugs 18 have shotgun and other firearms certificates in the (a) UK and (b) North East. [118793] Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department has spent on drug Damian Green: The total number of shotgun and treatment for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder other firearm certificates granted to persons aged under 18 years in England and Wales, as of September 2012, is since May 2010. [121078] 4,952. For the North East region, consisting of Cleveland, Durham, and Northumbria police forces, the figure Norman Lamb: The available information on the cost is 159. to the national health service of medicines listed in British National Formulary section 4.4—central nervous Data for Scotland and Northern Ireland are matters system stimulants and drugs used for attention deficit for their respective Administrations. hyperactivity disorder—in primary and secondary care The data were extracted from the National Firearms is in the following tables. Licensing Management System (NFLMS). The NFLMS is an operational system, continuously updated by police Primary care: Prescription items dispensed in the community in England forces in England and Wales, which holds data on all Period Net ingredient cost (£000) firearm and shotgun certificates they issue. While some statistical data from this system is published annually 2010 (May-December) 24,450.0 by the Home Office, the figures on age are not part of 2011 (January-December) 40,466.9 this publication and not subject to the same quality 2012 (January-June) 21,415.7 assurance checks. 433W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 434W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION set of conditions to enhance transparency and accountability in natural resource and public expenditure Written Questions management and the business environment): Following these delays we have been working with the World Bank Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, to put the programme back on track. We have recently Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House seen a number of positive trends in enhancing transparency of Commons Commission, pursuant to the answer of in the sector, including the publication of 136 mining 4 September 2012, Official Report, column 320W, on contracts. For further information please see the following written questions, how many written questions were link to the World Bank website: tabled on average per day, including non-sitting days http://www.worldbank.org/projects/P106982/drc-growth- (a) in each session since 2005-06 and (b) from the governance-mineral-sector?lang=en introduction of the restriction on e-tabling to date. Developing Countries: Urban Areas [121098]

John Thurso: The information requested is as follows. Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) The following table shows the number of written questions International Development how her Department tabled on average per sitting day in each session since 2005-06: assesses poverty and vulnerability in urban areas. [121065] Number of Number of sitting WPQs Mr Duncan: DFID draws on a range of information Time period days tabled Average sources, including national poverty surveys and Session 2005-06 (17 May 208 97,201 467 consultations with poor people, to assess poverty and 2005 to 8 November vulnerability in urban areas. 2006) The Department is working with others to improve Session 2006-07 146 58,837 403 the tools to measure and understand urban poverty. For (15 November 2006 example in Vietnam we are supporting a special poverty to 30 October 2007) survey for urban areas. In Bangladesh, DFID supports Session 2007-08 (6 165 75,000 455 November 2007 the Urban Partnership for Poverty Reduction Programme, to 26 November 2008) which has developed a new way of measuring and Session 2008-09 139 57,054 410 monitoring urban poverty that includes people living in (3 December 2008 to slums and informal settlements, who were previously 12 November 2009) excluded from the official statistics. Session 2009-10 601 24,0931 402 (18 November 2009 Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for to 8 April 2010) International Development what assessment she has Session 2010-12 (25 May 295 98,256 333 made of her Department’s expertise in urbanisation 2010 to 1 May 2012) and urban development. [121066] Session 2012-13 to date 39 13,350 342 (9 May 2012 to 7 September 2012) Mr Duncan: DFID has built up internal expertise in urbanisation and urban development over the past decade. (b) The restriction on the number of e-tabled questions was DFID has experience from India and other settings in introduced at the rising of the House on 21 October 2011. During the period 24 October 2011 to 7 September 2012, the number of urban development, experience which can be leveraged sitting days was 125, the number of written questions tabled was as we develop our urban programming going forward. 40,322. The number of written questions tabled on average per DFID’s expertise on urban issues resides in a number sitting day over this period was 323. of technical advisory groups, especially in infrastructure, Averages are calculated against sitting days only climate and environment, livelihoods, private sector (information is not readily available to disaggregate development, economics, governance, social development questions tabled on sitting and non-sitting days over and humanitarian. An internal network of 60 DFID this timeframe). specialists working on urban issues was created in early 2012 to promote improved understanding of the challenges of urbanisation by drawing on the existing knowledge and expertise and to share experience across DFID’s INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT country programmes. Themes of current interest include poverty, health, migration, enterprise development, climate Democratic Republic of Congo change adaptation and disaster resilience.

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment her International Development what assessment she has Department has made of the effectiveness of the made of the vulnerabilities of refugees in urban areas. PROMINES minerals sector reform programme. [121067] [119677] Mr Duncan: DFID recognises that, in developing Justine Greening: The UK co-funds the mining reform countries, refugees in urban areas often face a wide programme PROMINES with the World Bank. There range of risks which include threat of arrest and detention, were delays to the programme, from September 2010 to exploitation, inadequate shelter, human trafficking, October 2011, whilst the World Bank and Congolese prohibition on movement and residence and lack of Government agreed a Governance Economic Matrix (a documentation. This is why DFID is providing support 435W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 436W to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) Mr Duncan: Department for International Development to deliver protection and assistance programmes in (DFID) bilateral spending in India for 2010-11 is set urban areas. DFID has also funded research, through out in the following table. Data for 2011-12 are not yet the Norwegian Refugee Council, to identify the most available. effective approach for assisting urban refugees, on which 2010-11 humanitarian organisations can draw to improve their Project Total (£) programmes of support. State level projects Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Andhra Pradesh Health Sector Reform Programme 452,712 International Development what steps her Department Bihar Governance Reform 2,005,576 is taking to address the needs of refugees and internally Bihar Nutrition and Health Sector Support 14,656,016 displaced persons in urban settings through its (a) Bihar Strengthening Urban Management Programme 2,282,670 bilateral and (b) multilateral aid programmes; and if Bihar Urban Reforms 7,851,169 she will make a statement. [121068] Madhya Pradesh Power Sector Reform—Phase 2 3,952,774 Madhya Pradesh Rural Livelihoods Project—Phase 2 10,368,372 Mr Duncan: DFID provides bilateral and multilateral Madhya Pradesh Urban Services for the Poor 10,973,699 funding to several agencies in order to meet the assistance Madhya Pradesh Strengthening performance 1,299,481 and protection needs of refugees and internally displaced management in government persons, including those in urban situations. These agencies Madhya Pradesh Health sector support 20,112,424 include the UN High Commissioner for Refugees Orissa Health Sector Support 17,664,055 (UNHCR), United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), Orissa Modernising Economy, Government and 154,160 UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs Administration (OCHA), the International Committee of the Red Cross Orissa Tribal Empowerment and Livelihoods 32,825 (ICRC) and the International Organisation for Migration Programme (IOM). This funding enables agencies to respond to Western Orissa Rural Livelihoods 6,119,401 ongoing and unforeseen humanitarian situations, including West Bengal Civil Society Support Programme 55,250 those in urban settings such as the situation in Syria West Bengal Kolkata Urban Services for the Poor 26,585,353 and neighbouring countries. West Bengal Public Sector Enterprise Reform—Phase 2 5,349,362 West Bengal Strengthening Rural Decentralisation 7,357,946 Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for National projects International Development what discussions she has National AIDS Control Programme Phase III 24,289,430 had with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and Rastriya Madhyamik Shiksha Abhiyan (RMSA— 161,869 UN-Habitat on steps to address the growing number of Secondary Education) refugees and internally displaced persons residing in Reproductive and Child Health Programme Phase II 35,467,595 urban areas. [121070] Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan II (Universal elementary 49,212,086 education) Mahila Samakhya (Gender equality and women’s 4,105,081 Mr Duncan: DFID regularly holds discussions with empowerment) UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and Support to National Policies for Urban Poverty 453,152 other organisations which provide assistance to refugees. Reduction DFID has also recently met with UN Habitat. The Capacity Building for Poverty Reduction 1,599,173 former Secretary of State for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield Private sector (Mr Mitchell), met UNHCR on 25 July to discuss the refugee situations in Burma, South Sudan/Sudan, Sahel Poorest States Inclusive Growth Programme 174,604 and Syria. These discussions included the circumstances Small and Medium Enterprises project 3,243,727 faced by refugees in urban areas and how best to assist them. Civil society and multilaterals Poorest Areas Civil Society Programme II 1,161,386 Support to WHO for Revised National Tuberculosis 1,500,000 India Control Program UN Conference on Trade and Development 901,699 Globalisation Trust Fund Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for UNICEF Strategic Partnership in India 13,000,000 International Development if she will publish a International NGOs Partnership Agreement 4,649,530 summary of each project her Department has Programme supported as part of its bilateral aid programme in MoU with International Development Research 934,854 India in the last two years. [121079] Centre

Mr Duncan: Summaries of all DFID projects are Other 808,623 available on the DFID website. Grand total 278,936,052 Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much her Department Some of the projects above are delivered through has spent (a) in bilateral aid for each project and (b) multilateral organisations. Total UK aid delivered through through each multilateral organisation in India in the multilateral organisations in India as part of the bilateral last two years. [121080] programme is as follows: 437W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 438W

TRANSPORT Multilateral 2010-11 (£) 2011-12 (£)

Asian Development Bank (AsDB) — 4,000,000 A31: Dorset United Nations Conference on Trade 901,699 — and Development (UNCTAD) Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for United Nations Children’s Fund 13,000,000 10,000,000 Transport what assessment he has made of the (UNICEF) effectiveness of the A31 Canford Bottom Junction World Health Organisation (WHO) 1,500,000 — Improvement Scheme on improving general road safety World Bank — 6,000,026 and reducing traffic (a) in general and (b) during the Total 15,401,699 20,000,026 London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. [121037]

UK aid is also channelled through multilateral Stephen Hammond: The assessment of the effectiveness organisations through core contributions. It is not possible of the A31 Canford Bottom junction improvement to track, directly the funding down to the country or scheme will be undertaken 12 months after the completion sector level. of the scheme under the Post Opening Project Evaluation. DFID estimates the UK share of multilateral spend This is in line with current practice for all road safety in countries based on the overall proportions of ODA and congestion improvements that the Highways Agency to each country reported by multilaterals and DFID’s undertakes. share of total core contributions. Post Opening Project Evaluation compares the costs, The UK’s imputed multilateral share of ODA to benefits and other impacts predicted at the appraisal India was £36 million in 2009-10 and £273 million in (pre-construction) stage with the ‘outturn’ effects (after 2010-11 (the latest year for which estimates are available). completion). The effects that were thought to be when we made the decision to build the scheme are compared West Africa with what was found to happen after the scheme opened. Details are available on the agency website at: http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/18348.aspx Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The Post Opening Project Evaluation will also analyse International Development what steps her Department the design prediction that the scheme will provide improved is taking to help avert a food crisis in West Africa. journey times for 10 years after opening, before growth [120426] in traffic volumes results in an increase in congestion to levels before the improvement. This scheme primarily Justine Greening: In response to the unfolding crisis, aimed to increase the capacity and throughput of traffic my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for on the A31 and provide optimal traffic movements to Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), announced direct UK improve journey times at the junction and improve road contributions totalling £25.4 million to the region in safety rather than reducing traffic. 2012. During the period of the London 2012 Olympic and Through this assistance, British aid this year will Paralympic Games, no evidence or issues were received support 1.6 million people at risk of hunger across by the Highways Agency to raise significant concerns Mali, Niger, Chad, Mauritania and Burkina Faso. regarding road safety or congestion at the A31 Canford These direct funds are in addition to £32 million of Bottom junction. UK contributions also being provided in 2012 to the Sahel region-through multilateral agencies such as the Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for European Commission Humanitarian Office (ECHO) Transport what assessment he has made of the effect and the United Nations Central Emergency Response of the A31 Canford Bottom Junction Improvement Fund (CERF). scheme on local businesses. [121038] My officials and I will continue to monitor the situation Stephen Hammond: At the request of local closely, and liaise with our opposite numbers in other representatives, additional assessments were undertaken governments to urge other countries also to take their to reduce potential impacts of the improvement at the fair share of the response. A31 Canford Bottom junction on local businesses, both during the planning of the scheme and during its construction. Extensive dialogue was undertaken with the local NORTHERN IRELAND business community through the Wimborne Business Forum, which was convened at the beginning of the Tribunals: Appeals project. All members of the business community were invited and regularly attended a monthly forum chaired by the agency. A successful outcome of the forum was Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for the detailed planning of the local road closures which Northern Ireland on how many occasions she has the agency then announced to all local businesses and defended appeals against certificates to the tribunal the wider community, via the agency’s website and press established under section 91 of the Northern Ireland releases. No assessment has been or will be made of Act 1998. [120966] business impact following the opening of the scheme. The scheme evaluation will be undertaken a minimum Mike Penning: No such certificates have been issued of 12 months after its opening but does not include the since the current Government came into power. impact on local businesses. This is known as a Post 439W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 440W

Opening Project Evaluation and compares the scheme majority independent panel who see all the information costs, benefits and other impacts predicted at the appraisal and evidence submitted by applicants before making a (pre-construction) stage with the ‘outturn’ effects (after recommendation to the Department for Transport. The completion). Further details are available on the Highways final decision on the outcome of applications is ordinarily Agency website at: made by a senior civil servant in the Department for http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/18348.aspx Transport on behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport. Small business premises are an example of the type of This ensures that funding is targeted appropriately. property that can claim compensation under part I of the Land Compensation Act 1973. This compensation John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for can be claimed by those who own and also occupy the Transport (1) how much his Department agreed to pay property, if certain criteria are met and their property out from the High Speed 2 extreme hardship fund to has been reduced in value by more than £50 by physical date; [119279] factors caused by the use of a new or altered road. (2) how much had been paid out from the High Further details are available on the Highways Agency Speed 2 extreme hardship fund as of 1 June 2012; website at: [119280] http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/28533.aspx (3) how many applications to the High Speed 2 extreme hardship fund (a) had been concluded and Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) were still to be agreed on the most recent date for Transport what the final cost was of the A31 Canford which figures are available; [119281] Bottom Junction Improvement scheme; and what (4) how many applications have been made to the assessment he has made of the factors causing a change High Speed 2 extreme hardship fund in respect of High in costs from the original estimate. [121039] Speed 2 to date. [119282]

Stephen Hammond: The final cost of the A31 Canford Mr Simon Burns: HS2 Ltd publishes regularly updated Bottom Junction Improvement scheme is still be figures for the Exceptional Hardship Scheme on its determined, as there are ongoing negotiations to agree website. These figures can be found at: the final account. The current estimate is £10 million. http://www.hs2.org.uk/property The assessment of the factors causing a change in costs include reducing the time local roads were closed, diversion and include the information requested. of uncharted utility services (not belonging to the agency), inclement weather and adverse ground conditions, which Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for were not as predicted. Transport what major risks to the HS2 project were identified in the Major Project Authority’s report on Airports: Sikhs HS2; and if he will make a statement. [120751] Mr Simon Burns: The Major Projects Authority report Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for is kept confidential for a period of at least two years to Transport what progress has been made on discussions allow free and frank discussion about the project within on the screening of Sikh turbans at European airports. Government. [121097] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: A rigorous and extensive UK trial Transport what meetings his Department has had with of an alternative screening process for religious headgear HS2 to discuss the red-amber warning in the Major has been ongoing since February 2011. The Department Project Authority’s report on HS2; and if he will make for Transport has updated the European Commission a statement. [120752] on this through written reports and oral presentations. I am pleased to say that the Commission has agreed Mr Simon Burns: The Department has regular meetings (subject to a vote in the relevant regulatory committee) with colleagues in HS2 Ltd on a range of topics. to introduce new regulations permitting member states use this alternative screening arrangement. The UK trial has also been extended for a further 12 months. Road Signs and Markings DFT officials continue to remain available to discuss the UK methodology in more detail with other EU Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for member states should they wish to adopt a similar Transport how much his Department has spent on road methodology. signs since May 2005. [121071]

High Speed 2 Railway Line Stephen Hammond: The information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what arrangements are in place to ensure that no fraudulent claims are made in respect of the Shipping: Exhaust Emissions High Speed 2 extreme hardship fund. [119278] Steve Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: All applications to the Exceptional Transport what his policy is on ratification of the Hardship Scheme are judged against five published International Maritime Organisation MARPOL criteria and applicants must provide detailed evidence Annex VI legislation to reduce harmful emissions from to support their case. This evidence is first assessed by a ships. [121077] 441W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 442W

Stephen Hammond: The UK has already acceded to Danny Alexander: Treasury Ministers and officials the Protocol of 1997 to the International Convention have discussions with a wide variety of organisations in for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships 1973-78, the public and private sectors as part of the process of commonly known as MARPOL, which added Annex policy development and delivery. VI to the Convention. The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings Third Sector with external organisations, available at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Engagements Transport what steps his Department has taken to implement the recommendations of the National Audit Mr Hain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Office report, Central Government’s implementation pursuant to the answer of 3 September 2012, Official of the national Compact. [120630] Report, column 81W, on official engagements, if he will Norman Baker [holding answer 13 September 2012]: list what official engagements he attended on 9 July and Following the 2010 re-launch of the Compact the will attend on 15 September 2012. [121099] Department for Transport has reaffirmed its commitment to working collaboratively with the civil society sector, Sajid Javid: Details of ministerial and permanent including this in its 2011-2015 Business Plan. secretary meetings with external organisations on departmental business are published on a quarterly The Department has taken a number of steps to basis and are available at: ensure that the Compact is implemented across all areas of our business, including nominating a Senior Responsible http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm Officer and a Civil Society Liaison Officer to promote As my predecessor set out in her answer of 3 September and manage the process and working with colleagues 2012, Official Report, column 81W, in line with the across Government to share best practice and continue practice of previous Administrations, details of the to engage with organisations in the civil society sector Chancellor of the Exchequer’s official engagements are as they provide transport services. not available in advance. The Department has adopted the Cabinet Office’s ’Consultation Principles’ and guidance, which ensures government departments adhere to the Compact in WALES seeking views about the work they do. Steps have also been taken to ensure that bidders for transport funding Organs: Donors are aware of the Compact and the flexibilities it provides for advance payments to civil society organisations. Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions (a) he has had and (b) plans to have Travel: Health with the Welsh Government on the introduction of presumed consent for organ donation in Wales. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for [120604] Transport what steps he is taking to prioritise health in transport planning and policy in order to encourage Mr David Jones: On 18 June, the Welsh Government people to use active travel rather than travelling by car. published for consultation its draft Assembly Bill and [120952] Explanatory Memorandum seeking to introduce an opt-out system for organ donation in Wales. That Norman Baker: Through the Local Sustainable Transport consultation closed on 10 September and we continue Fund (LSTF) the Government is investing £600 million to consider the Welsh Government’s proposals carefully. in sustainable transport. When assessing LSTF bids, we gave additional credit to proposals with positive health Discussions between the Department of Health, the outcomes, with the result that almost all of the approved Wales Office and the Welsh Government are ongoing at programmes include measures to increase walking and ministerial and official level. cycling. In addition to the LSTF, this year we are investing a further £45 million to improve local walking and cycling routes, enhance bike and rail facilities and WORK AND PENSIONS treat cycle safety hotspots. We will consider what more we can do to encourage active travel as part of preparing Employment: Young People a new transport strategy for publication by the end of the year. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many (a) jobs, (b) apprenticeships and (c) work experience placements have been created TREASURY in (i) the UK, (ii) the West Midlands and (iii) Birmingham since the launch of the Youth Jobs Fund; and what the Child Benefit: Northern Ireland average financial cost was of each position created. [121081] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Esther McVey: There is no Youth Jobs Fund. The (a) Finance and (b) Social Development Minister Youth Contract, which was launched in April 2012, will regarding retaining child benefit as a stand-alone provide nearly half-a-million new opportunities for young benefit in Northern Ireland. [121033] people over the next three years. 443W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 444W

Housing Benefit Steve Webb: The Department is working with all those with an interest to understand how automatic transfers of pension pots into the new employer’s scheme Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for might work. In considering all the issues, it will look at Work and Pensions (1) how many non-dependants are the potential impact that automatic transfers might exempt from requiring a non-dependant deduction for have on different individuals. housing benefit purposes due to being under 25 years old and receiving jobseeker’s allowance or employment The Impact Assessment published alongside the and support allowance; [120958] Government’s consultation response indicated it believed (2) what proportion of under 25s that receive there are potentially significant benefits to individuals jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support through consolidation of their pension savings—including allowance and are exempt from non-dependant through greater engagement, lower charges and higher retirement incomes for members. deductions are under 21 years old. [120959] On current projections, the Department estimates Steve Webb: The information requested is not currently that, if pots move automatically with individuals when available, and could be provided only at disproportionate they change jobs, women will see their pension savings cost. spread across fewer schemes, and be even less likely than men to retire with five or more dormant workplace Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for DC pots, and more likely to retire with no dormant DC Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has pots. (See Table 1.) made of the effectiveness of extended payments of housing benefit in assisting members of long-term It is not possible or meaningful to present similar estimates for seasonal workers or self-employed people workless households into employment. [120960] as most individuals will not remain permanently in Steve Webb: No assessment has been undertaken. these labour market states during their entire working The extended housing benefit scheme was intended to lives. improve work incentives for long-term benefit recipients. Table 1: Proportion of individuals retiring between 2050 and 2060 with The Government is addressing this issue through universal dormant workplace DC pots credit which will fundamentally reform support for Percentage working age people, providing greater work incentives If pots move automatically with individual and ensuring that work pays. from job to job Based Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 4 September current £2,000 £5,000 £10,000 £20,000 2012, Official Report, column 403W, on housing policies limit limit limit limit benefit, what estimate he has made of the number of Men (a) disabled people and (b) foster carers who will be No 9.4 9.4 9.9 10.8 12.1 affected by the housing benefit changes regarding dormant under-occupation. [121036] pots One 18.9 21.8 25.9 31.0 40.0 Steve Webb: DWP have made an additional £30 Two 18.0 19.8 24.1 28.0 29.9 million available for the discretionary housing payment Three 16.4 17.8 18.4 17.1 12.8 budget from 2013-14 aimed specifically at two groups: Four 12.5 12.8 11.3 8.6 3.7 disabled people who live in significantly adapted Five or 24.8 18.4 10.3 4.6 1.7 accommodation and foster carers. more DWP estimates there are: (a) Around 35,000 potentially affected claimants who are Women wheelchair users needing accommodation adapted to their needs. Adaptations for wheelchair users are among the most costly on No 11.2 11.6 12.7 13.9 17.0 average; dormant pots (b) Fewer than 5,000 potentially affected claimants who are One 15.4 19.9 27.0 36.3 47.5 foster carers. Two 16.9 21.7 26.6 27.8 24.9 Notes: Three 16.2 18.7 17.6 14.1 8.1 (a) Estimate for Great Britain derived from analysis of the Four 13.4 12.5 8.7 5.4 2.3 2009-10 English Housing Survey. Five or 26.9 15.6 7.4 2.5 0.2 (b) Indicative information from a variety of sources including a more survey conducted by the Fostering Network in 2010, Department for Education and devolved Administrations, Family Resources Notes: 1. Figures based on PENSIM2. 2. Percentages relate to Survey. individuals who reach retirement age between 2050 and 2060. 3. Data are column percentages. Occupational Pensions Universal Credit Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the potential effects of his plans for the transfer of Work and Pensions under what circumstances he small pension pots on (a) women, (b) self-employed would determine that the cost of accommodation in people and (c) individuals who join and leave the the social rented sector is greater than it is reasonable labour market on a regular basis, such as seasonal to meet via the housing cost element of universal workers. [120501] credit. [120961] 445W Written Answers14 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 446W

Steve Webb: There are currently three different Steve Webb: The information is as follows: approaches to controlling housing benefit expenditure Number of winter fuel payment recipients in Liverpool, Walton on rents in the social rented sector. We are still considering constituency (last three years for which figures are available) a restraint that will be compatible with the broader approach being taken in universal credit. Winter fuel payment recipients

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 16,430 Work and Pensions how support for the cost of 2009-10 14,990 temporary accommodation will be provided under 2008-09 14,840 universal credit. [121044] Notes: Steve Webb: We will be making an announcement 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. shortly on how support for the cost of temporary 2. Parliamentary constituencies are assigned by matching postcodes accommodation will be provided under universal credit. against the relevant ONS postcode directory. 3. Figures from 2010-11 recognise the May 2010 structural changes to Winter Fuel Payments: Liverpool the parliamentary constituencies of England and Wales. 4. These figures are for the total number of payments made and will therefore include some claimants who are not yet pension age. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for 5. The latest figures for winter fuel payments are published at Work and Pensions how many pensioners received the http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wfp winter fuel allowance in Liverpool Walton constituency Source: DWP Information Governance and Security. in each of the last three years. [120957] WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Friday 14 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 17WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ...... 20WS Employment Law Review...... 17WS European Stability Mechanism and German Reducing Audit Requirements (Update) ...... 19WS Constitutional Court Ruling ...... 20WS

DEFENCE ...... 19WS JUSTICE ...... 21WS Unsolicited Mail Campaign...... 19WS Judicial Diversity Taskforce (Progress Report)...... 21WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 14 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 407W HEALTH ...... 426W London Metropolitan University...... 407W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 426W Space Technology ...... 408W Ambulance Services ...... 426W Cancer ...... 426W CABINET OFFICE ...... 411W Dentistry...... 427W Charitable Donations...... 411W Exercise...... 428W Government Departments: Public Consultation .... 412W Fractures...... 428W Internet ...... 412W General Practitioners ...... 428W Ministers...... 412W General Practitioners: Telephone Services...... 430W Health Services: Hartlepool ...... 430W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS...... 413W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 430W Leasehold...... 413W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 431W Hyperactivity: Drugs ...... 431W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ...... 413W Community Infrastructure Levy ...... 413W Housing: Construction...... 414W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 432W Housing: Greater London...... 414W Firearms: Licensing ...... 432W Local Government: Trade Union Officials ...... 415W Migration: Children ...... 416W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 433W Travellers...... 415W Written Questions ...... 433W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 417W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ...... 433W Media Ownership...... 417W Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 433W Sport England...... 417W Developing Countries: Urban Areas ...... 434W India ...... 435W DEFENCE ...... 417W West Africa ...... 437W Air Force...... 417W Armed Forces: Sexual Offences...... 417W Defence Business Services ...... 417W NORTHERN IRELAND...... 437W Pay...... 418W Tribunals: Appeals ...... 437W Territorial Army ...... 418W UK National Codification Bureau...... 418W TRANSPORT...... 438W A31: Dorset ...... 438W EDUCATION...... 419W Airports: Sikhs...... 439W 1 North West...... 419W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 439W 16-19 Bursary Fund ...... 419W Road Signs and Markings...... 440W Financial Services: Education ...... 419W Shipping: Exhaust Emissions ...... 440W Free School Meals...... 420W Third Sector...... 441W Migration: Children ...... 421W Travel: Health ...... 441W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 421W Schools: Dudley...... 422W TREASURY...... 441W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 422W Child Benefit: Northern Ireland...... 441W Secondary Education: Birmingham ...... 423W Official Engagements ...... 442W Teachers...... 423W Teachers: Criminal Proceedings ...... 423W WALES...... 442W Vocational Education: Qualifications...... 424W Organs: Donors ...... 442W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 424W Electricity: Prices ...... 424W WORK AND PENSIONS...... 442W Energy...... 425W Employment: Young People...... 442W Housing Benefit ...... 443W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ...... 425W Occupational Pensions...... 443W South Sudan ...... 425W Universal Credit...... 444W Syria...... 425W Winter Fuel Payments: Liverpool ...... 445W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Friday 21 September 2012

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CONTENTS

Friday 14 September 2012

Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Bill [Col. 542] Motion for Second Reading—(Gavin Barwell) Read a Second time, and committed

Prisons (Property) Bill [Col. 577] Motion for Second Reading—(Stuart Andrew) Read a Second time, and committed

General Anti Tax-Avoidance Principle Bill [Col. 609] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Meacher)

NHS Cancer Services [Col. 612] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 407W]