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Vol. 598 Wednesday, No. 3 23 February 2005 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 23 February 2005. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 509 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 520 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 31 ……………… 532 Order of Business ……………………………… 533 U´ dara´s na Gaeltachta Elections: Motion ……………………… 540 Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: From the Seanad ……………… 540 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Social and Family Affairs Priority Questions …………………………… 558 Other Questions …………………………… 571 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 585 Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: From the Seanad (resumed) ………… 586 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004: Report Stage ……………… 618 Private Members’ Business Special Educational Needs: Motion (resumed) …………………… 644 Message from Select Committee ………………………… 673 Adjournment Debate Hospital Accommodation…………………………… 673 Schools Building Projects …………………………… 678 Radon Gas Levels……………………………… 680 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 685 509 510 DA´ IL E´ IREANN What is the position of the Government in respect of this matter? ———— Mr. Rabbitte: Are they or are they not? De´ Ce´adaoin, 23 Feabhra 2005. Wednesday, 23 February 2005. The Taoiseach: As I have mentioned a number of times outside the House and I repeat it inside ———— the House, there are no differences between the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar and me on this issue whatsoever. I get detailed 10.30 a.m. briefings on security issues, but they are broad briefings. I do not get detailed intelligence ———— reports every day like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform receives, nor do I or Paidir. have I ever looked for the detailed security briefs Prayer. from different regions of the Garda and the kind of information the Minister gets. ———— Deputy Kenny is right, but that is a sideshow. It is really nothing to do with the main matter. I Leaders’ Questions. am the one who is at least credited with the Mr. Kenny: I am sure the Taoiseach will agree phrase of Sinn Fe´in and the IRA being opposite that at a time of great sensitivity in respect of the sides of the one coin. Who attends meetings and Good Friday Agreement and the peace process, what is its formation have nothing to do with the it is fundamentally important that the Govern- issues. I agree fully with that point. The funda- ment of which he is Taoiseach should speak with mental issue here is that we are trying to move to one voice on these matters. On two occasions in get a clear position on three questions. We have the recent past I asked the Minister for Justice, made considerable progress on perhaps two of Equality and Law Reform whether he was pre- those questions. The fundamental issues are the pared to publish the names of the people he putting arms beyond use — decommissioning; the believed to be members of the provisional IRA issue of criminality in all its respects; and the end army council. The Minister said that was not of paramilitarism. Who is or is not in some group appropriate. However, last weekend on a Sunday is not the issue. All the Government’s attention morning chat show he chose to name three indi- and efforts are to reach that position. viduals as being members of the army council of As I have said many times the reason for that the Provisional IRA. The Minister for Foreign is simple. We have spent two full years on this Affairs, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and phase of the peace process. In all that has hap- Employment and the Taoiseach did not go that pened in recent weeks, nobody should forget the far and said they did not have the extent of evi- enormous strides that have been made in all the dence available from security briefings that the other phases of the peace process. However, since Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the end of 2002 we have moved to the phase of has. acts of completion for the outstanding issues. Does the Taoiseach share the view of a Fianna That is the phase we have been in. We made sub- Fa´il councillor who yesterday called for the resig- stantial progress in March 2003, but failed nation of the Minister for Justice, Equality and because of these issues. At the end of 2003 we Law Reform, Deputy McDowell? Is that Fianna made progress, but failed again because of these Fa´il policy? Is there now a split within the issues. Again in 2004 we failed because of these Government, which is essentially causing a side- issues and some other issues — the clarity show and an unwarranted distraction from focus- around decommissioning. ing on the main issue, which is the web of crimi- nality recently exposed by Garda Commissioner We are trying to bring an end to this phase. I Conroy and his gardaı´, which seems to reach right will restate the reason for this as it cannot be said to the inner sanctums of Irish business and which often enough. We cannot implement the wish of affects the economy and goes to the heart of our the people, which is the implementation of the democratic system? Good Friday Agreement because we cannot get Does the Taoiseach believe it would be appro- trust and confidence on the part of all the parties, priate for him to be fully briefed by the Minister never mind the two Governments, to move for- for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he ward until we get clarity on these issues. This is speaks on issues such as this on behalf of Govern- why it is so important. This is the fundamental ment? Does the Taoiseach not believe it is funda- issue. Anything else is a sideshow. When we met mental that the Government speaks with one Sinn Fe´in representatives some weeks ago we voice? These matters have of course been denied made these points clear to them. We are awaiting by the Sinn Fe´in leadership, who seem to again a response on those points and I hope we will be follow the old Sinn Fe´in motto that those who able to move on successfully when we get those know do not tell and those who tell do not know. responses. We have not got them as yet. 511 Leaders’ 23 February 2005. Questions 512 Mr. Kenny: The Taoiseach did not respond to Mr. Neville: Hear, hear. the question as to whether his party shared the view of some of his councillors about the Minister Ms Burton: She spoke about the matter at for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. In recent length. days, we have heard some pious pronouncements from members of the Sinn Fe´in Party about Ms O’Sullivan: I am interested to hear the republicanism and criminality. It has been sug- Taoiseach’s comments. gested that Sinn Fe´in and its supporters have no part in any criminal activity. Such statements The Taoiseach: The Minister for Justice, have been made by the same people who denied Equality and Law Reform and I have spent more responsibility for the murder of Detective Garda hours working on these issues than we would Jerry McCabe, denied any involvement in the want, particularly over the last two years. I recall Northern Bank raid and refused to agree that the weekends when we sat around, mostly waiting for abduction and execution of Jean McConville was people to get back to us on certain issues. I think a crime. we spent approximately 30 hours working on I listened to the sisters of Robert McCartney, these issues, waiting for briefing notes etc., over who was murdered in Belfast recently, speaking the course of one weekend, during one of the on RTE radio this morning. Their fundamental failed attempts to reach agreement. I could men- point was that comments made on radio and tele- tion many other things, but there is no point in vision and in newspapers by the leadership of going into them. Many people who have spoken Sinn Fe´in, principally that party’s president, Mr. about the peace process in recent days are so Gerry Adams, have no impact on the ground, badly informed about it that it is upsetting to because “that is the way they are”. I listened yes- listen to them. I would rather leave such things terday to Deputy O´ Caola´in, who made a differ- go, however, because the people in question are ent kind of speech in the presence of the not involved in the detail and do not understand Ta´naiste. Does the Taoiseach agree that if all aspects of the matter. Deputy O´ Caola´in and his party, particularly his The second issue raised by Deputy Kenny was party’s president, want to make hard decisions a comment made by the Minister for Defence, and to dissociate themselves from criminality, Deputy O’Dea. The Minister’s statement was cor- they could in the first instance speak to the IRA rect, of course. All such issues were mentioned in person in Belfast of republican leanings who paragraph 11 of the joint declaration because acts issued the instruction to murder Robert of criminality were ongoing at that time. The McCartney, who was an innocent man? If Sinn British Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, and I said such issues would have to be dealt with when we spelt Fe´in wants to demonstrate that it is serious about out in detail the necessary acts of completion at the ways of democracy and the path of peace, it the end of 2002.