Steph: Hello Kale, and thanks for joining me today.

Kale: Hey, Stephy. Thanks for having me back.

Steph: Buckle in. Are you ready?

Kale: I am.

Steph: No, seriously though, I really wanted to chat to you off the back of your amazing work with the Film, and previous conversations we've had certainly around the Blue Zones because they are a really fantastic example of how to live well and long of course. Let's set the scene because this conversation has actually come off the back of the recent The Game Changers movie, which has obviously taken nearly the world by storm and has led to a lot of controversy. I wanted to break it down with you today because one of the big arguments they actually use is to support is based on that they believe, the Loma Linda population, which is one of the Blue Zones eat vegan. Can we start here and write this myth down?

Kale: Interesting. In Loma Linda, there are vegans just like in Adelaide, which is where I am right now there are vegans but the population as a whole are certainly not vegan. If you look at the Seventh Day Adventist scriptures religion you'll find that as a vegetarian/pescatarian dietary approach is encouraged. A lot of the Loma Lindans avoid red meat but a lot of them still include things like eggs, butter, I saw some dairy while I was there, we were at the church and they had alongside the almond milk in the coffee machine fridge, there was just a typical dairy milk and these people were actually quite similar to us here in Australia. It was very much relatable community.

The doctor that I interviewed in the film, she was a vegan herself and she was advocating a vegan approach.

Steph: Of course, she was.

Kale: However, of course she was, "Everybody needs to go vegan."

Steph: No. That's her personal dietary preference has just obviously shaped her beliefs. It's really hard for me to take advice from someone who is vegan because they're not going to have the capacity to analyze the scientific literature without bias.

Kale: Well, this is the thing and she's a medical doctor, she's a beautiful person, but she's also probably about 30 or 40 kilos. Maybe 20 to 30 kilos overweight. A lot of people, as soon as they saw her on screen, for instance, at the film screenings came up to me after and said it was hard to actually take her seriously. I don't think we can equate the Loma Linda population with vegans. As a result, I don't think we can equate veganism with a long life. We just don't see that, and if we look at the remaining four Blue Zones longevity cultures, none of them are vegan.

Steph: Can you say that again, please?

Kale: If we look at the four remaining Blue Zones, we find that all of them consume some form of animal protein they just don't do it that often. They might have it once every couple of days. They might have it once a week even and they have small amounts. The majority of their might be organic, local seasonal proteins, but they are also eating meat. In the film I got to eat, I was at the Panagiria in Ikaria, which is like a big celebration, and there were 700 kilos of wild goat being slow cooked in a big drum. Everyone is consuming the broth from that goat and consuming the meat and the in Ikaria is the same if not better than in Loma Linda.

We can't jump to conclusions when it comes to the fact that only a few Loma Lindans are vegan, and they live a long time. I actually had people who did the whole creepy thing I've talked about this before with you, the people who stay really long after the event and they’re sort of shifty looking at me as I'm packing up boxes when I'm vulnerable may come into the attack on the site.

Steph: At the film.

Kale: At the film screening. They came in and they were like, "Yeah." Well, I’ve written a blog that the people who really live long time they're all fasting and they're all vegan. I was like, "Well, that's not true. What else have you got?" They said, "Well, it's in a blog, and that's why we're vegan and we fast." They had this big conversation, they could not even see what I had shown in the film without going ‘oh well, that must be wrong’, because what I believe to be true is different. You see this a lot, I think this refusal to have an open mind when it comes to diet, but if we want to re approximate what the longevity cultures are doing, they're eating meat. They're just not eating a ton of it. They're eating a little bit of it, and it's good quality. They have a little bit of it in the context of a very plant rich diet. We actually go into this quite a lot in the show.

Steph: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. You know what I'm not debating is the benefit of plants like I think anyone who knows me will know that but just for those that don't, I absolutely support a predominantly plant based diet and that is what the literature says. I eat predominately plant based, my clients a predominantly plant based, that is what the literature says. What we can't do is use data from a predominantly plant based

culture or study and extrapolate that to mean veganism. Because they're two different things and The Game Changes film and certainly some of the more heated conversations I've had on social media since the film was released is this real correlation or correlative data being used for causation.

We just have to really understand science more, putting personal beliefs aside, correlation does not equal causation. We can't use predominantly plant based to be the same as veganism. This is definitely my point, I don't want to have an argument about plants. That's what we all do. You and I and those that I've spoken to in great length about before. It's just, we're looking at this film and the science that they've used to essentially brainwash those that don't know better. That's my big problem at this point.

Kale: Yeah. I think there's quite a lot of industry ties with the producers of that film and some pretty convenient investments going on. I think the main thing is that we find comfort in the extremes nowadays, because I think it's a shortcut to us finding our identity and finding our community and that comes back to I think, just fear and loneliness. People are more fearful and lonely than ever. To jump on a particular diet, and then find your identity in that diet, and then find your community and other people who follow that diet, it's a natural process from where we are at, and maybe even the solution is in trying to logically explain to people, "Hey, this is what you should eat." Because it's very difficult to study diet anyway, because you can't sit people in a room and control everything that they do for six weeks to six years, it changes over that much time. It's very difficult.

I think the best thing we can do is actually look at who does it well, who gets the results that we want? Then to copy that. I think the solutions might be, "Hey, let's deal with this underlying fear based culture that we've set up and this loneliness that is so pervasive." Really do it because I don't know about you, but I used to be the raw vegan, I did raw vegan for a year. By the end of it, I was actually starting to... my health was starting to go down. I felt fantastic for the first six months, and I thought, "Hey, this is the diet for everybody. This is going to save humanity." Anyone who wanted to talk to me. I was like, "You have to go raw, you have to go vegan." By the end of it, I just had to question myself and go, "Hey look, maybe this isn't working for me anymore." I changed.

I think that it takes a big step emotionally to get to that point where you are comfortable losing that identity for a while to maybe find a more authentic expression of self. Because I think we're so much more than what we eat, but in this day and age like with Instagram going the way it's going with the virtue signaling with diet like, "You eat meat? Okay, doesn't care about the climate." All that stuff. I think it's just gone a little bit crazy and it's probably not just coming from how we feel point of view, it's coming from how everything is set up in the fact that we are so scared and lonely now, that's probably what we need to fix.

Steph: Yeah. I think you raise a really good point because it is a real big community and people really feel like they're a part of something, but I think it can really eliminate our ability to have a truly scientific discussion about what we have found to this point. It is really hard to study . We don't have randomized control trials, which look at this specific intervention over many years, like you say, but that's not really the point what we need

to stop doing is selecting or cherry picking data to sort out point. The research in Game Changes was largely observational, and there was quite truthfully really embarrassing stories of an N, subjects of three, and they were using this data to try and prove that in this specific example, meat would kill you in the end.

For me, that just meant that the film lost all credibility because it wasn't even a scientific experiment that maybe wasn't at the randomized control trial state yet, it was purely a story and that's not science. I also think that the film was started about seven years ago, and our conversation around meat in general, definitely dietary cholesterol and saturated fat was actually quite different back then. They haven't gotten, I guess they haven't become up to date with what the current research looks like around saturated fat and dietary cholesterol and our long term health. There's a lot of really archaic science in the film as well.

Kale: Yeah. It's hard because I mean, you want to be able to put a hypothesis forward. Even in the Longevity Film, it's like, there's always going to be some inherent biases in how you portray the story. I mean, it's coming from my point of view, I'm not going to go and interview Joe Blogs on the street who might have this crazy... I perceived to be crazy idea that smoking cigarettes causes longevity. Obviously, there's no one out there that believes that. Obviously, if I saw that I wouldn't interview that person. I think the way the directors and producers of this film would perceive something who says that meat may be healthy, would be quite similar to that. They go down a certain direction and then through all that, I think they just get too much momentum in that one direction. All of a sudden, they're talking to a doctor who likes plant based and says, "Hey, you should chat with this person who's also happens to be plant based and would support my theory."

I mean, if we're talking about science, science in general sucks, I mean because it doesn't take into account all the different factors that affect the human organism. We have a molecular impact zone where things are impacted biologically and on a molecular basis. If we then include other areas of how the human body works, such as how are we feeling about our community? What our attitude is like towards life? How much we moved every day? How much sunlight we experience? How much stress that we're under? How many EMF’s are around us? I mean, we need to start looking at things in context. I think, again, this is why I did the film is because I saw so many shortcomings when it came to research. I went, "Well, this is overwhelming. How do we control over these things?" The only answer I came up with was well, who's doing this right? Who's getting the results that we want? I think it's the longevity cultures, the Blue Zones. What are they doing on a day to day basis to live a really long, happy, healthy life.

I'm talking a life that's 97% free of disease. For instance, in Okinawa, that 97% of their lives are expected to be free of any chronic disease. Whereas us in Australia 50% of our children, I can't believe they're living with a chronic health condition. It's crazy different statistics. What does that mean? I'd love to ask you, your dealings with the vegan population, and you can only speak from your perspective as a practitioner who you've worked with. You're not allowed to speak to the whole vegan population, because some

people will get angry and think that we are, but in your experience are the vegans that you work with or interact with an expression of great health?

Steph: Well, I mean, usually they're coming to see myself or Elly at the Natural Nutritionist, because they're not they're trying to work out how to optimize a plant based diet. I'm actually really happy to do that. As a bit of a side note, I will come back to your question, but in some of the social media conversations that I've had about The Game Changers. People keep using this argument that I'm threatened by the film because I might lose money because I promote animal based products. I know it's a conversation really, I mean, I probably shouldn't even waste my time on but for me-

Kale: Controversy.

Steph: -clarify it’s not about vested interests, my genuine passion and purpose in life is to help people understand that health begins what we choose to put on our plate. It's not taking advice from Netflix that allows that to take place. I prescribed probably plant a predominately plant based diet, and many of our clients are plant based and our job is to help them do it properly. When we look at some of the recommendations in the film, they use these anecdotal evidence of say the world's strongest men. Patrick, I hope I pronounce your surname correctly, Baboumian. He's not the World's Strongest Man Firstly, but he eats 5000 calories a day, six a day, at least three protein shakes and a whole host of supplements including creatine, beta , and branched chain amino acids.

I mean, what does that tell you? They simply can't get enough protein and amino acids from these diet alone. There's also a very well known plant based nutritionist who continues to argue that you can get enough protein from a vegan diet yet him himself consumes multiple protein shakes, multiple servings of processed soy per day. I think we're having a very different conversation. If you need to supplement for the rest of your life, if you need to rely on protein shakes and soy is that long term? Is that a sustainable approach? I mean, there's not one other person on planet earth that could eat like this, Patrick, strong man and find it sustainable.

The big argument is, how could you get strong as an ox or the question he's asked is, how could you get as strong as an ox without eating meat? His answer is, have you ever seen ox eating meat? To justify that he should be vegan, but an ox doesn't eat or protein shakes either. Human physiology is not the same as an ox, or a cow, or a pig, which were often compared to in the film. One of the biggest issues I have with the film is that humans are not pigs or cows, we have a very different digestive system. Animals also convert nutrients that humans cannot make efficiently. I'm happy to break that down more specifically, but again, it's this really wake science that I have an issue with, not plants. I love plants. It's cherry picking data and fallacy that are used from that bias to make a point.

Kale: What are the main nutrients that you think they're trying to cover? I mean, in the film, we chatted with Dr. Mark Hyman, who is, I think one of the pillars of health himself, but also frontiers of nutritional science. He talked about , an called Leucine, which is incredibly important that's severely lacking in a vegan approach. He

talked about that being really important, especially in the younger years and the older years, and he said as soon as you enter into muscle loss, that's essentially aging and that's when you start to die.

Steph: Yeah, I totally agree. A really critical amino acid, absolutely. That's perhaps why are we having what we're seeing, this example of really heavy supplementation whether it is B12 or Iron, which are the nutrients that we hear the most about. I'm really interested in amino acids from an anti-aging point of view, but what about mental health? This depletion of these really key branched chain amino acids can really cause mental health conditions including depression.

Kale: Yeah, massively.

Steph: Veganism, we have to look at long term as to, if we're going to have depletion that could really impact our long term health. There's no point being veganism for the health of animals or whatever your motives might be, if you yourself cannot be a healthy vegan. We always look at Iron and the B12. Look, there are some people that do their blood tests every six months that maintain really high levels, and that is excellent, but we can't assume that everyone that is a vegan won't have B12 depletion in two years. Personally, I always prescribe B12 to a vegan, I always but 99% of the time based on blood test results, of course, we have to look at Iron. This is another point in the film, which I had a real issue with is they kept talking about haem Iron and non-haem Iron. Just to break that down, haem Iron is going to come from an animal and non-haem Iron comes from plants.

One of the big fallacies in the film is they kept selecting this specific data to show that haem Iron was going to give you basically heart disease and cancer. I mean that has been extensively examined in the literature, and there's not sufficient evidence that haem Iron would contribute to an increased risk of colon cancer. The other issue or the other point is that we can't look at a plant based food that has X milligrams of Iron and compare that to an animal based food that also has X grams of Iron because it's not the same when we look at the bio availability. Assuming that you can get that same amount of iron out of a plant is an issue in itself, because you'll end up with a deficiency, if you think you're meeting your recommended daily intake, but the conversion is so poor in humans, that it's like one, it's not even apples to apples. It's a different comparison all together. We have understand a little bit more and of course use blood tests to make sure that two years in we're not looking down the barrel of Iron Deficiency Anaemia.

Kale: I mean, you would also need to take into account the individual because the more antibiotics someone has had the less they're going to be able to draw that Iron from the food. The more yeast they've got the more Iron is going to be bound up and feeding the yeast so they're not going to be using their iron properly and it's the same with B12. If someone's got a good healthy microbiome, that they'll actually manufacture their own B12 as well. There's all these different things that needs to come into play.

For me, it's never going to be about what is right and what is wrong. If you thoroughly believe that a vegan diet is going to be right for you, then it will probably work better than forcing meat down your throat and in causing stress and an adrenaline response as

you're eating and the cortisol response as you're eating. I think what it comes down to is what you and I are saying is that there isn't one approach that is going to lead to successful health well being and aging for everybody. We need to find our own path, I think in the dietary realm. We can certainly work within parameters, for instance, a seasonal local, organic, whole foods diet. I think it's quite a responsible for the film to say, "Hey, this is the only way you can do it. It's the only way that we're going to save the earth." Which is completely false by the way, we need mixed organic agriculture to save the planet. "It is the only way we're going to save human beings." Which again, is false because we know that there are cultures around the world who thrive off omnivorous diet.

I think there's a lot of shortcomings with the film and coming from that place of this is the only way to do something is a financial safety net, I think because when you serve that again, coming back to where we started, when you serve that deep seated fear in people and that need to that a lot of people have to feel right and to feel like they're in the right tribe. When you serve that with that film, I think you fast track and shortcut a lot of success. That's why it's gone viral. This is people talking about it because people are feel passionate about the subject. That's all great, but I don't think we can. I think there are a lot of vegans who would agree, I don't think we can say this is the perfect diet for everybody, or this is the perfect diet for the planet. Because it's just not and there are too many examples. From where we came from as hunter gatherers to where we're currently at now cultures around the world, including ourselves, who do relatively well, eating animal protein and certain cultures who do extremely well, eating animal protein.

I think it's a lot of shortcomings with it. Again, I think it's worth, it's good in a way that it's come out because it's insights conversation about how we move forward because there is a massive push against conventional medicine and conventional ways of preventing and treating disease. If we can push forward with the nutrition front, which is one of the four major areas that we need to focus on in our lives if we want to be well, then it's a good thing, even if Steph has to put up with some Instagram hate.

Steph: Thick skin I have. I agree with you, of course, I guess what another challenge of mine is, is that we're unable to have a strong scientific debate. I love that in the Longevity Film you interviewed the vegan doctor that you mentioned. Just even with that, one example, we can see that you're looking for intentionally I hope looking for a more balanced viewpoint. Whereas the lead, "star of The Game Changers" James Wilks did not interview a single researcher, scientists, nutritionist or athlete who had an alternative viewpoint. This is confirmation bias. It's what scientists should know to avoid otherwise; it will really discredit their research.

There was not one expert who had clinically researched veganism from an unbiased or even neutral point of view, that I have a big issue with the film could have been a lot more balanced. Probably not, as popular, of course, if we were looking at other experts, nutritionists, scientists or even athletes that could have that intelligent debate rather than being completely one sided.

Kale: Yeah, that's the case with everything, isn't it? I mean, there's all sorts of medical areas that we’re not allowed to talk about with people. Immunization, antibiotics, all these different things that get shut down from a certain viewpoint. If you're on one side, you're crazy. If you're on the other side, you're right, and we shouldn't even be having this conversation. I think that's the enemy here. It should be open, it should be balanced. That's one of the main reasons we went to Loma Linda, is because that was the curious , right? They're living amongst Western culture, no geographical boundaries and neighbouring suburb has the highest murder rate capital of America and they are vegetarian. They are the outlier amongst the longevity cultures in terms of their . It'd be silly not to go there because of that.

They also happen to be the most... They have the most strict adherence to a religious ideology. Maybe that is what's keeping them healthy. Maybe that's what's keeping them healthy. Because, that's another unique thing about Seventh-day Adventist. In their scriptures, they take from Friday afternoon off until Sunday afternoon off, and they go spend time out in nature with family and friends. I follow Mike, my friend from Loma Linda now on Instagram and every single weekend he's out hiking with his family camping with his family every single week distressing, skateboarding all the time with friends and family. He works in the church, he volunteers all the time. Maybe it's those activities contributing to their extreme health and well being, because they are living 10 years longer on average than the rest of California. It is incredibly, fascinating.

Steph: It's absolutely incredible. Obviously, I'm a nutritionist, and I believe that health starts with what you put on your plate, but as you say, there's many other pillars and this is what the Blue Zones do really well. Community, sunlight that's again, what we're forgetting to look at when we're so biased or because some Loma Lindan’s a vegan, it must be the answer to longevity because they live 10 years longer. That's a long bow if you ask me and got to start to look at where health and what creates health. Again, that's what I think the Longevity Film is done a brilliant job of doing because it's not just talking about food alone and we've got to, acknowledge the broader picture.

Kale: Yeah. I mean, to be honest this has undermined a lot of my previous work, mind you. It does make sense that I would do this but from an honesty perspective and from an authentic storytelling perspective, then it's powerful. Because as soon as you start to question yourself, not in a negative way, I mean, question yourself and consider the results you getting, what you wanting to get from life, then you're on the right path and the whole meaning of it, I think is to be in that consideration, to question and constantly refine. Yeah, I don't know. I think the Longevity Film is better than Game Changers.

Steph: That's unquestionable. Let's circle back I want to go back to some of the nutrients that we were talking about earlier, because there are going to be people that are tuning into the plant based and absolutely, that's cool. Let's make sure you have a greater understanding of what needs to be on your radar, of course B12 and Iron get six monthly or even more frequent blood test, always just check in before things go any further in the wrong direction than they need to. As I said earlier, animals convert nutrients that humans can't make as efficiently. This includes B6, B6, which is naturally a great energy Vitamin, but it's also very important for our nervous system.

Linking back to what we were discussing earlier around making sure that our diet isn't going to contribute to mental health issues in the future. B6 is also really important for eye health, liver function and metabolism, our immune system. Really making sure that we're aware of our dietary sources of B6. Animals convert K1 into K2 to so we need that process to occur for our bones to deposit calcium. We know that a plant based diet can be a lot lower in Vitamin K2, being aware of that. Beta-carotene is converted to Retinol, that's really important for skin and eye health, making sure that you're aware of your Vitamin A intake. Then of course really obvious one to me is the conversion all that shorter chain fatty acids into longer chain, EPA, DHA, AA or Arachidonic acid. We've got to be really aware of nutrients in general not just getting stuck on iron and B12 but making sure that we are being the healthiest vegan if that's our dietary preference.

In my opinion, it really is about increasing your nutritional knowledge. It's not just about buying fake meat replacements or simply defaulting to soy all the time. It really is about understanding the significant dietary change. Doing your due diligence, your research, research that doesn't involve just getting your information from Netflix. Because, I believe that in some people, a well designed vegan diet may be possible, but it does require commitment. It requires education and a lifelong commitment that isn't like a standard Western diet and as I said, isn't just a one to one replacement with the commercial products that are now available on the supermarket shelf.

Kale: Yeah. I think Netflix also, we should point out have videos on like they've got Pete's film on there, which is more of a Paleo approach. I think they're actually doing a good job in providing a balanced platform. It just so happens that the vegan one got pushed on the algorithm, it got picked up and shared and then of course, we had a lot of ambassadors around the world pumping it. One of the questions that came up to me while you were speaking is I used to when I was health coaching, when I was involved in the community a lot more. I used to find a lot of vegans with mental emotional problems, so anxiety and depression for a start, but also hormonal issues, a lot of hormonal issues. I see that coming from lack of good quality fats.

Steph: Fat and protein.

Kale: Protein too, I wanted to ask you, where can a vegan find some good quality fats to actually substitute that are not animal based?

Steph: Well, I think this is a really important part of the conversation. I thank you for raising because we need factors that huge building block for our hormones and our brain, our brain is significantly built from fat.

Kale: Every single cell.

Steph: We've really got to appreciate the benefits of that but just as a sidestep. Again, circling back to that whole saturated fat conversation because the vegan movement really uses the archaic data that meat is high in saturated fat, which will increase your dietary cholesterol, which will give you cardiovascular disease, which has been completely disproven in the literature. Just to break that down for a moment, we know that dietary

cholesterol only raises blood levels by 1 to 2%. The dietary cholesterol is only ever going to have quite a mild impact. Saturated fat actually exerts a really positive influence on our HDL, our high density lipoproteins where their job is to transport cholesterol away from our arteries and towards the liver, where it's excreted or re-used in that really important roles that cholesterol plays like, obviously cell integrity, brain health hormones, production, which is also a hormone without cholesterol, we would die.

Our body has these really elaborate mechanisms to manufacture cholesterol to make sure we always have enough, that is a fact but we've only known that for say the last maybe 8 years. The film is looking at older science, which still really blame saturated fat as the devil. Then if you're a vegan and that's your belief, you actually also most often are a big proponent of low fat eating. The problem is further exacerbated because one, you're cutting out animal based fats, and two you believe low fat is the answer based on what is the biggest nutrition myth of the last 50 years. That's an issue.

Kale: Nice one.

Steph: Your question can be answered though. Olive oil, olives, flaxseeds, flaxseed oil, nuts, seeds, avocado, coconut oil, which they wouldn't touch with a long foot pole because they again believe saturated fat is an issue. There are a lot of options that are plant based, but very often veganism comes with low fat and high carb as a result, it's another area I want to get to remind me to come back to high carb if I forget. We've got break down that research around low fat.

To your point about what you saw in some of your client's with either anxiety or I see a lot of food disorders. I'm a big believer that veganism is a way to hide an eating disorder. You can always get away with cutting out whole food groups when you're speaking about this ethical arm or this save the planet conversation. When a lot of women it's a way to say what they think might be to control their weight and longer term, veganism can actually really contribute to not only poor health, it was not done properly. I think it really can damage our relationship with food and that's something I'm really passionate about speaking about. Because we really want to have a beautiful healthy relationship with food, not being afraid of food or masking an eating disorder with something that appears to be a healthy reason.

Kale: For sure. For sure, I think quite often we see them go hand in hand where it becomes a lot of people get concerned. I mean, I know myself I got incredibly skinny and gaunt when I was raw vegan, but I couldn't see it personally, I can only see it now when I look back at pictures. If people want to reference I'll eventually post something to Instagram.

Steph: Before and after.

Kale: I'm going to do before and after I went out when I was raw vegan. I'll admit, I felt great for that first six months. I look back at the photos and far out I look terrible, I was skinny and just weak, I do remember feeling weak. From a surface perspective that's an issue because I don't want to be walking around without any leg muscles to put into my turns.

No, I agree. I think it is a mental, emotional decision and does have a mental emotional ramifications to that particular dietary approach. All dietary approaches have a mental emotional ramifications.

Steph: Yeah, that's something to really unpack. I would ask you if you want to be plant based to really understand what your driver is, to really make sure that you're making it for the right decision, from the right place. Rather than it being because you've learned something on Netflix or you follow said nutritionist who looks pretty good, but you're a completely different person and would eat very differently as a result.

Kale: Yeah. It does come down to animal suffering, and there's no way you can bring yourself to even have something as simple as an egg, which by the way, I think, is one of the most powerful foods that vegans could reintroduce is just some eggs, including the yolk even an infrequent basis.

Steph: There’s some healthy fats for you.

Kale: Yes, some healthy fats and B12, some Leucine, some incredible it build a whole chicken from an egg. It's amazing. Anyway if it does come down to an animal suffering thing then yeah, but if it does come down to an environmental thing then I think we need to do a lot more research because yes factory conventional agriculture is a major issue, but not just on animals on plants as well. If we look at, if you speak to an indigenous tribe, and you show them a wonderful plant based field of soy or field of corn or beets, they see environmental destruction.

Steph: Don't they?

Kale: Because, what used to be there was a natural balanced ecology and what is there now is monoculture. I spoke with Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride about this in The Gut movie, and she talked a lot about this stuff. What's really going to save the planet is organic mixed farms where animals are rotated and really become... Joel Salatin talks about this a lot that you become a farmer of good quality grass and good quality soil. That is only achieved with the inclusion of animals in that system. I think if we need to feed the entire planet on an ongoing basis, then we need to start taking our food supply back into our own hands and start growing our own in the home and then applying some new technologies such as urban farming methods and really promote this organic approach.

I was in Woolworth the other day, and I was listening to the announcements or whatever. They announced that they were putting $30 million into actually helping farmers transition to organic agriculture because they literally cannot get enough organic produce into the store. I think we're on our way, I think that's fantastic. It's so good.

Steph: That's amazing. I wouldn't never be buying organic from Woolworth personally, but it's very interesting that the popularity has increased so much.

Kale: Yeah. I mean, it's such a big tick from such a major player. In our commerce sector around food, to actually say, "Hey, we're going to put money behind this, we're interested in this." I think that's fantastic. That happens because we vote with our dollar. If you want to see more organic, mixed agriculture, then buy it, be involved with it, instead of trying to force people into a very monoculture mindset and purchase trends as well.

Steph: That's a really exceptional point, I think it's great that we've got that awareness. I've had Cyndi O’Meara on the show a couple of times now talking about farming and definitely how you can start even living in an apartment. You don't need to have this view that it's only possible when and if you have some land, I think he can start now. Taking control is huge. I think that it's great that these products are available in the supermarket and we're also seeing the start of more quality animal proteins being available. I would be more concerned that cost could become a barrier because there is going to be a much higher mark up if you're shopping quite commercially.

Just keep in mind that there are other ways to do it. Yes, grow as much that you can yourself but try to utilize farmers markets or shop direct from the farm because if cost becomes a barrier, you'll move back to that poor quality, which is definitely moving away from health because food quality is what, one of the biggest purchasing decisions we can make. Let's think outside the supermarket although I do really celebrate that these choices are now available.

Kale: Yeah. Like right now I'm on the road, and we have a Woolworths 100 meters from our door up on the beaches, and it does fill the gap. Sometimes, we go to the market every Sunday, and we chat with our organic suppliers and all that stuff. When we run out of greens and it's Wednesday, just popping over to Woolworths to get some organic greens feels totally fine. Doing our best to grow our own is also fantastic, but then I'm basically volunteer for the local Possum population who enjoy all my spinach far more than I do.

Steph: I love it. I'm not a purist either I do shop at Coles, I try to avoid it if I can, but I think that all of us have a schedule that we have to work with to the best of our ability and I don't like the word busy, but life is pretty full these days. We just need to stop being extreme in many ways because, of course you can't, even families can't maybe probably find it impossible to one find a farmers market every week because often in Melbourne, they occur monthly, but also yeah to buy enough for the week ahead. I appreciate there might be a bit of a top up halfway. Staying on that quality conversation and looping back is that big research that "research" that's used in The Game Changers is still that really old school, highly processed deli meat, where of course that's not going to look good from a health point of view. Yet this data has been extrapolated to look at all meet where of course it's a completely different kettle of fish when we're looking at sustainable grass fed, grass finished, pasture raised products.

I know we can't see the world yet on this part of the livestock industry, if that's how you would define it, but the awareness needs to start there. Because the reality is, and I have these conversations daily with my clients, not everyone or not enough people are aware of the huge issues with the way those more conventional commercial livestock

farms work. They're horrific for the environment. For the health of the animals, the quality of the product that is produced is, significantly lower as a result. We do need to start to become aware of how this works. There's a book called On Eating Meat by Matthew Evans, that would be a big eye opener for those that aren't yet aware of that. Then looking for ways that we can make a better choice. Grass fed, grass finished, pasture raised.

I get asked all the time, but we buy a lot of our animal proteins direct from Braelands. Obviously they're Victorian based, but it will help some of you tuning in B-R-A-E-L-A-N- D-S Braelands Beef & Lamb. You'll be able to probably Google one in your local community, and just getting a little bit more savvy with how you shop, where you spend your money. Then of course, when you look at the research, making sure that it's a direct comparison, not cherry picked data that's looking at highly processed deli meats that then convinces you that meat will give you cancer. It's got to be in context, and it's got to be really strong science, which unfortunately, the film fails to use.

Kale: Absolutely. I think we do see a lot of problems occurring with the environment when we try to force a largely European based agricultural system on to an Australian landscape. Just here, we have so many native plants and animals that are just not grown or cultivated that do nothing but improve the landscape such as Kangaroos and Emu and all the rest of it. For some reason we'd prefer to farm cows and sheep. It's interesting when we start to have these conversations moving forward, I think we'll see some big changes take place but just have to because we can't keep going in the way that we're going just doesn't work.

Like you said, we can't feed everybody in Australia on grass fed, grass raised cow, but we could potentially feed everyone in Australia with wild Kangaroo because they are abundant here in Australia. There's definitely some conversations to be heard about what sort of meat we're having as well and whether we need to be limiting ourselves to such common food sources.

Steph: The fascinating space, I think there's going to be some big changes, especially now that we've got, like you said, some of the big players on board like Woolworths. It's an exciting time. I wanted to circle back to carbohydrates, if that's cool with you.

Kale: That's fine with me.

Steph: Awesome. Linking back to what we said before, around, this is sometimes and probably more often that veganism looks like high carb, low fat. I really felt this in the film as well, because one of the other statements they made that I have a big issue with is that they really spoke about glucose as being the brain's predominant fuel source. This is a big issue because of course, the brain needs some glucose, but what we have to understand, especially when we look at Western cultures, who unfortunately eat a lot of refined carbohydrates and sugars. Perpetual glucose across the blood brain barrier is a risk factor for what is now defined as Type 3 diabetes, Alzheimer's disease or Insulin Resistance in the brain.

What the experts in the film, completely ignored is that ketones can actually meet up to 70% of the brain's energy needs. That's probably not in your eye, but it's actually possible. Ketones are anti-inflammatory and an actually really incredible longevity promoting fuel because of how anti-inflammatory they are. Again, The Game Changers has completely forgotten about inflammation, being that risk factor for cardiovascular disease, and that we can change that inflammatory pathway by starting to maybe lower our carbohydrate intake especially refined carbohydrates and sugars and teach our body to produce fats and have that by-product of ketones to help manage inflammation, and provide the brain with a really incredible fuel source. Anyone that has experienced the difference between say, poor blood sugar control and great blood sugar control knows how different they feel mentally, cognitively, emotionally as well. It's night and day.

That's another area. I know, it's off topic from the specific plant based benefits of the film was driving. Again, it was just another flaw and science that they missed the opportunity to discuss.

Kale: Yeah. Whether that's from a logistical point of view if we wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, there are things that we couldn't discuss in the Longevity Film purely because we didn't have the money or time to get $25,000 worth of animations done. I think there's a variety of reasons they might have ignored it, but maybe the driving one was their agenda. Like you said, once you feel that difference between fuelling yourself off of Whole Foods or low carbohydrate diet. I don't like to use those words sometimes because I think it puts pictures in people's minds of, big bacon and egg breakfast and lots of cheese and dairy and all that stuff. When you eat a lot of vegetables and a little bit of animal proteins and really good quality fat to the point of satiety, then you feel incredible. At least I do, compared to fueling myself with something like a Acai bowl, which I'll do every couple of months. I might just say, "Hey, I feel like in the Acai bowl" You just feel very different, at least I do anyway.

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. Not discounting that the focus of The Game Changers was very much about athletes, right? They of course reached out to Scott Jurek, which most of any my endurance athletes will know he's a very well-known endurance athlete, Ultra Marathon runner. Don't get me wrong, he's a convincing n=1 because he looks to thrive or at least wins a lot of records and is a phenomenal athlete off a vegan diet. I don't understand how they or he hasn't been made aware of or considered to experiment with becoming more fat adapted and rather than relying on glucose. The research is very clear on how beneficial it can be to be able to burn fat as fuel when you're running or in your personal case, performing at those endurance levels are at those really long distances.

I hope that Jeff Volek and Scott Jurek meet one day because that was, again, another conversation that was neglected. You make a good point, they probably couldn't include it in the film, because it wasn't the topic and the message that they were pushing. Again, I just wanted to make that aware that we have to stop relying on this whole glucose conversation because it's what we thought was right for 50 years, and it's what got us into the absolute health disaster that we see in a lot of Western people.

Kale: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'll add in here that I wouldn't call myself an athlete, but I surf between two to four hours a day, depending on how good the surf is and the

differences I feel, whilst being fuelled with just a balanced whole food approach, as opposed to just a strictly carbohydrate approach, which is what I was mainly doing as a vegan. Phenomenal, nowadays I can, I can skip breakfast and surf until 11 o'clock you know and come in still calm and not hangry, and then enjoy a nice . Just those benefits alone and then the longevity outputs that you would experience from fasting coupling that with exercise in the morning a huge and getting grounded and then being the ocean.

Steph: Of course.

Kale: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can unpack there. I think a lot of shortcomings like we said in that story.

Steph: A lot of shortcomings, a lot of fallacies. Their little byline is ‘fuelled by the truth’, but unfortunately I disagree. I think the movie should be called The Game Changers fuelled by fallacies.

Kale: Fuelled by one perspective on health.

Steph: My last point is that just for those that haven't sort of unpacked who else they use in the film to push their belief Nate Diaz who was the excuse my ignorance, but the boxer that was in the film, it's well known that he only eats plant based temporarily. He's on record eating eggs and seafood. They also speak to Novak Djokovic, he's not a vegan. One of the funding, one of the people who have funded the film is Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's the part owner of a supplement company who sells some vegan products. He's predominantly plant based, but he eat eggs. He eats eggs, so he's not vegan. Again, do they expect us not to do our research, it's almost embarrassing that they're using these examples of people who perform well, who aren't actually vegan. I just don't understand why they chose that data. Was it because they couldn't find enough vegan athletes who are performing well? Because of course, we're going to take a deeper look at what these athletes actually eat.

Kale: Yeah. I wonder if Schwarzenegger and those guys actually want people to go vegan or they just want people to cut back on meat consumption. Schwarzenegger and James Cameron are staunch environmentalists. Perhaps they do see that connection between conventional agriculture and the degradation of the environment and that's their reasoning. I'm not sure but like you said, I mean, how many of these people are actually thriving on a strictly vegan diet? I don't know. To cherry pick that information in those opinions is pretty irresponsible, I think.

Steph: Well, it just doesn't support their story. It makes it look really embarrassing. When they're comparing deep fried chicken to real food like this is whole section on fire for those who eat shit American food deep fried chicken and then what do you know eat better when someone gives them some vegetables and some legumes? I mean, that's not science. It’s almost embarrassing that they would include that. It really doesn't help their credibility in my mind.

Kale: No, I agree.

Steph: You can get me started about the section on erections. I think I'll leave that one for another day. That was for another day, that's not science.

Kale: I didn't know.

Steph: I don't think that erections overnight is a good thing that sounds like disrupted deep, or REM sleep to me. That doesn't sound like a measure of health. Why do they even include that section?

Kale: I'm not sure. I have no idea.

Steph: They couldn't resist speaking about penises, it was just overwhelming they had to include it in the film.

Kale: They're like, "This is the only sausage you're allowed to put in your mouth."

Steph: Don't. It could be end of the day, it's quite an expensive two hour advertisement for James Cameron's vegan protein powder company. I mean, the only positive thing that film does is celebrate more plants, but we've all been doing that for a decade at least. Predominantly plant based is not veganism and I really want people to understand that, just because there's some anecdotal evidence in the film, that doesn't mean that veganism is the answer to your health or performance goals. Don't take nutrition advice from Netflix full stop.

Kale: I like it. Nice summary.

Steph: Thank you for engaging in this conversation with me. I have really enjoyed our discussion and of course, your viewpoints because you're a lot more calmer than I am about this topic in general. I mean, it's going to ruffle a few feathers either way. I just ask that if you are going to comment, let's engage in a really intelligent, scientific discussion. No cow prods waving, no name calling qualification questioning or abusive language will be tolerated. That's why I had to delete a post from Facebook at the end of October. Let's just keep it scientific and I'm happy to engage in a conversation. Let's keep it kind and I look forward to hearing from you guys, take care.

Kale: Isn't it sad that you have to say that?

Steph: Well, I know but it's gone. It went absolutely vile. It was... I can't even explain it. I had people contacting me about it because they'd obviously seen it on Facebook. That's just the way Facebook works, unfortunately, because posts can get shared into these private vegan pages and they’re like a gang. Weirdly, Vegans are very angry.