Thursday Volume 493 11 June 2009 No. 89

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 11 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 915 11 JUNE 2009 916 House of Commons Extremist Activity (University Campuses) 2. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What recent Thursday 11 June 2009 assessment he has made of the levels of extremist activity on university campuses; and if he will make a The House met at half-past Ten o’clock statement. [279001]

PRAYERS The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual Property (Mr. David Lammy): The assessment of the law enforcement agencies is that there is some extremist [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] activity on a small number of campuses. Where it occurs it is serious, but the assessment is that it is not BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS widespread. Following the issuing of guidance to universities on this matter last year, we continue to work with the COMMITTEE OF SELECTION higher education sector to help it to reduce the risk of Ordered, extremist activity happening on its campuses and to That Claire Ward be discharged from the Committee of Selection protect the safety of students and staff. and Helen Jones be added to the Committee.—(Mr. McAvoy.) Andrew Rosindell: According to the British high INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF HOME EDUCATION commission in Pakistan, half of those granted student Resolved, visas go missing when they come to the United Kingdom. That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That What discussions is the Minister having with universities she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid and the authorities to ensure that that ends, and ends before this House a Return of the Report, dated 11 June 2009, of soon? the Independent Review of Home Education.—(Mr. Heppell.) Mr. Lammy: I am pleased to tell the hon. Gentleman that there has been a change to the visa regime, which Oral Answers to Questions means that so-called bogus colleges have largely been closed down over the past year. Now only 1,600 colleges have been granted a registration, compared with the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS 4,000 that we had previously. I am of course in regular discussion with my colleague in the Home Office, and The Minister of State was asked— the hon. Gentleman will know that the Home Affairs Committee is also looking into the issue. My colleague Human Tissue Legislation in this Department and my hon. Friend the Minister for Borders and Immigration will give evidence before it. 1. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): If he will direct the Office for Life Sciences to review the Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am grateful arrangements for pharmaceutical and medical biotech to my right hon. Friend for that answer, but I gently businesses to access samples of human tissue. [279000] suggest that his civil servants might be allowing him to become a little complacent. If he talks to Jewish students The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual about the intimidation on campuses earlier this year, in Property (Mr. David Lammy): The Human Tissue Authority which Islamist organisations fuelled by outsiders intimidated is currently assessing the impact of human tissue legislation Jewish students, not allowing them to meet or make and regulation on tissue-based research. This is of course their case, he will learn that it was a grave and worrying primarily a matter for the Department of Health. moment. Will he meet a delegation from the Union of Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for that reply, but Jewish Students and the Community Security Trust to lack of access to human tissue samples is impeding discuss these issues? We cannot allow the notion that research in the fight against cancer and other diseases. there is no problem to gain ground. Most human tissue removed in surgeries is currently incinerated, but with patient consent it can be put to Mr. Lammy: I have already met the Union of Jewish very good use. Will the Minister ask the Office for Life Students and I have set up a group within the Department Sciences to look into creating a database to record what that includes representatives from the universities to samples are available where across the country in order discuss these issues. We will meet regularly to continue to help academics and biotech companies to achieve to make an assessment of the anti-Semitism that can scientific breakthroughs? exist on campuses and to do all the appropriate work to minimise those threats and those issues for Jewish students. Mr. Lammy: The hon. Lady is right that bioscience is That kind of xenophobia and racism have no place in hugely important. For research on Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s the national life of this country. disease and schizophrenia, access to human tissue can mean real advances. The Office for Life Sciences is Small Businesses co-ordinating activity and I am pleased that the Department of Health is among the group of Departments represented. She will also be aware that in March this year the HTA 3. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): announced a project to assess the impact of tissue What plans he has to reduce the level of regulation on legislation and regulation on tissue-based research. small businesses. [279002] 917 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 918

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, reconsider the provisions of my private Member’s Bill, Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): Since 2005, we have which would remove the requirement for a small business reduced the administrative burden on business by to apply for rate relief so that it would be applied £1.9 billion and are on track to deliver our promise of a automatically, instead. I withdrew that Bill voluntarily 25 per cent. reduction worth £3.4 billion by 2010. We on the basis of assurances from the Government that, plan to adopt new simplification targets for 2010 to to be honest, have not been met. 2015 which will address regulatory costs for all businesses, but especially small businesses. Ian Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman again for his kind words. As I mentioned previously, as I ran a small Mr. Bellingham: I would like to congratulate the hon. business, I know the frustrations caused to businesses Gentleman on his appointment and promotion, which by the imposition of what they perceive as unnecessary were well deserved. He has always taken an interest in regulation. I can assure him that I will do all I can to small businesses. He will be aware that the First Secretary remove unnecessary regulation for small businesses, has made a number of encouragingly pro-business speeches because I bear the scars of having to go through lots of recently. In fact, he said that both the Government and forms that I could not understand. Europe should get off the back of small businesses. He seemed to be implying that the Government now want David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): to come out of the EU social chapter. Is that the case? I congratulate my hon. Friend on his appointment to a Will the Minister also confirm that it is still his Department’s key role in the empire of Mandelsonia. It is good to see intention strongly to resist the job-destroying agency him on the Front Bench. workers directive? In tracking the concerns of small businesses, we are seeing the cost of compliance moving up their list, and Ian Lucas: First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his that is a worry to many who recognise the role of small kind words, which are greatly appreciated. I ran a small businesses in creating most of the jobs that will pull us business myself for a period and I know the importance out of recession over the next 18 months. Will he assure of good regulation for small businesses. Some regulation the House that the dropping of regulatory reform from is good, but the Government are keen to reduce and the original title of one of the component Departments eliminate unnecessary regulation. The type of regulation does not mean that there will be a relaxation of attention that is acceptable to the Government should support on this important area for small and medium-sized workers. The minimum wage is a form of regulation of enterprises? which we are very proud. We all support that type of good regulation, but we will always eliminate bad regulation. Ian Lucas: As the Minister responsible for regulatory We are always listening to businesses to hear what they reform, I can assure him that I do not intend that its have to say, so that we can do that as often as possible. importance should drop in any way. It is a vital part of creating a more efficient and competitive economy and Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West and Penistone) I will do all I can to take the agenda forward. (Lab): As my hon. Friend will be aware, reducing the imposition of regulation on small business is important, Mr. Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I, but another important factor is ensuring that the finance too, welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box. I lose is available for small businesses. He is aware that the track, but I think that he is the seventh or eighth enterprise finance guarantee is working well and is Minister who I have shadowed in the last few years getting money for small businesses to where it should and I genuinely hope that he lasts longer than his be. Is he satisfied that there is sufficient money in that predecessors. scheme to ensure that, as we are at the turning point of the recession, the vital resource of money for small Despite the Minister’s claims and his welcome experience businesses will be available for some time to come? in small business, red tape is strangling enterprise. Let me give him an example. To install new microgeneration technologies in this country, a business must comply Ian Lucas: It is, of course, extremely important that with not one, two or even three regulators but five such finance is available for small business. I noted, as I separate regulators, three of whom make separate charges. sat as a Whip in the Chamber, how the Opposition have Is that burden of regulation intentional, or is it just the stopped talking about the ineffectiveness of so-called result of ministerial incompetence? Government schemes. Those schemes are working. It is always important to listen to business and to hear what it has to say about the availability of resources. If there Ian Lucas: It is never the Government’s intention to are shortages, we will certainly listen to what small create difficulties for anyone. Our intention is to make businesses have to say. progress. I should be very glad to have more information about the specific example to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, and I shall gladly look into it. I thank him Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): May I, for for his kind words, and assure him that I intend to be the second time in less than 24 hours, congratulate and here for a very long time. welcome the Minister and extend that welcome to the rest of his ministerial colleagues on the Front Bench, Scientific Research pausing only to regret that the majority of the team—and its most powerful members—sit in another place? I invite him to reassure the House of the Department’s 4. Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) commitment to regulatory reform, and particularly to (LD): How much funding his Department is providing the deregulation of small businesses. I urge him to for scientific research in 2009-10. [279003] 919 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 920

The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat ago, so I do not see the need for consternation about its McFadden): My Department will invest some £5.5 billion return to the Department. That synergy was there before, in research funding in 2009-10. This is made up of the and it will still be here in the future. science research budget, which will reach almost £4 billion next year, and the Higher Education Funding Council Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): The quality-related research grants. leading scientific research undertaken at places like Loughborough university, and the development of resulting Dr. Harris: The Minister will recognise that science is products, will be vital if we are to bring our economy long term and involves dedication. Does he accept that out of the current recession. However, although the there is consternation in the science community that, global figures always sound impressive, is my hon. since the latest reshuffle, neither of the words “universities” Friend aware that there is often a shortfall at local level or “science” appears in the name of his Department? in the amount of funding available for the development Moreover, the Science Minister and the Secretary of of leading scientific projects, and especially for bringing State are both in the House of Lords and therefore them forward to market? Will he ensure that greater unaccountable to this House. The Science Minister is emphasis is placed in future on those technologies that also forced to take on defence duties as well, and there is will make a real impact on the economic situation of a real fear that the needs of strategic, long-term science the east midlands region as a whole? Will he argue the will be subordinate to business. How can he reassure the case that, far from being reduced, funding should be science community on all those points? increased, as the technologies being developed will create jobs both locally and internationally? Mr. McFadden: I am afraid that I must disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I believe that our Science Minister Mr. McFadden: I know that my hon. Friend is a real brings an enormous wealth of expertise from his industrial champion of science funding, research and educational background that is to the advantage of both the country opportunity. His point about the application of science and the Government. As for the Department, it makes and bringing research to market is well made. We are absolute sense to bring together our leading-edge scientific hugely committed to that. It is one reason why we have research with support for business and the fields of backed the science budget and why it is in such a higher and further education. The economic situation different state today from the science budget that we that we face requires all those things to be brought inherited when we came into office. I assure him that together, in the interests of scientific research and the that commitment will remain in the future. country’s economic future. Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD): May I welcome Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): the Minister for Business to his wider range of My hon. Friend will know that the investment in science responsibilities? Of course, investment in science, technology, that the Government have made in the north-west of engineering, maths, and also in the arts and humanities England has paid real dividends, in that it has attracted for the digital economy, is essential if we are to emerge high-quality science and protected and developed businesses from the recession even stronger. In just a matter of at the leading edge of our economy. Will he assure the weeks, there will be hundreds of thousands of graduates House that investment will continue to be made outside leaving our universities in the bleakest job market for a the golden triangle of the south-east, and that there will generation. Now is an ideal time to expand the research be real investment in science in the regions? opportunities for them, so that they can learn, invest and build our future, rather than have a taste of the dole Mr. McFadden: The investment over recent years in queue. the north-west has been extremely welcome, and is a reflection of the fact that the science budget has trebled Mr. McFadden: We are acutely aware of the graduates since 1997. We have maintained our commitment to the who will come out of universities in the coming months. science budget, and that stands in contrast to the signals The predecessor Department, the Department for given yesterday, when we were told that the Opposition Innovation, Universities and Skills, announced measures are planning a 10 per cent. cut across the board in such on the expansion of internships and so on to try to funding. The sort of choice that the country will face in expand opportunity for people in that position. I quite respect of science funding is therefore quite clear. agree with him that research should not just be about science; we have also expanded funding to the economic Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): and social research budget, which has gone up from May I return to the point made by the hon. Member for £105 million in 2004-05 to £166 million in the last Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris)? Notwithstanding financial year. Once again, there is a stark contrast the Minister’s proper defence of the Science Minister’s between that commitment, and pledges for a 10 per credentials, will he accept that there is very real consternation cent. cut across the board from the Conservative party. in the universities in general, and the science community in particular, about the fact that the words “universities” Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Further to point made and “science” have both been deleted from the name by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and of this mega-Department? What can he do truly to Neston (Andrew Miller), one of the key areas in the reassure us? north-west for science development is the Daresbury laboratory and business park. Its output is key to science, Mr. McFadden: The hon. Gentleman has been in the invention and research and to products being brought House a very long time, and I have to remind him that it to market. It is key to have the space and the willingness is not unknown for science to be a responsibility of this to develop that through factories and other facilities. Department. That was the case until a couple of years There is an important point to be made about Daresbury: 921 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 922 it is one of the key areas in the country with the room to decisions in a way that is objective and meets the do that. I ask my right hon. Friend to make sure that he priorities involved. It is also important to remember keeps that in mind when he is looking at funding for that we are talking about not whether, but how investment science, as Daresbury science and business park is one will be made. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman of the key areas in the country for that. could pledge that his party will meet the investment in further education that this Government are promising. Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend makes his point very well. The excellence at Daresbury is well recognised. I Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My know that he is a strong advocate for it, and I can assure hon. Friend knows that his new Department will be him that that is understood in Government. His points judged on how well it does its job, so can I urge him to about the spin-offs and benefits from that are absolutely prioritise the decisions on colleges? When a constituency correct. college of mine, Kirklees college, Huddersfield, took over the failing Dewsbury college, it was given clear Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): There are clearly promises that it would have a rebuilding scheme. It has many unanswered questions about science funding in been delayed and delayed, however, so it is about time the future. Just two years ago, the Prime Minister that that bureaucratic nightmare ended and we allowed announced with a great fanfare that he was creating a people to get on with such schemes, which are good for new Department called the Department for Innovation, education and good for the regeneration of our towns. Universities and Skills, which basically separated science from business, yet less than two years later he has Kevin Brennan: Yes, and can I acknowledge my hon. abandoned that new Department and taken us back to Friend’s work in his constituency and in his role as a the future, with all the resultant costs and confusion. Select Committee Chairman? There is a process in The question is: was he wrong back then, or is he wrong place, and all parties agree that it is the right process to today? Like Thomas More, I see no further alternative. deal with what occurred following the Foster review. The Learning and Skills Council will very shortly take Mr. McFadden: I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman decisions on those projects that meet the priorities and has been living for the past two years, but I have to tell criteria that the Foster review set out. I can promise my him that there have been some changes in the economy hon. Friend that he will not have to wait long for those in that period. We face a worldwide economic downturn, decisions to be announced. and in those circumstances, it makes absolute sense to bring together science, business, and higher and further Mrs. Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Colleges education. We now have a Department in which educational throughout the country will have been dismayed to opportunity, science and innovation and support for receive from the Learning and Skills Council yet further business all work together for the benefit of the country’s correspondence stating that the decisions that were economy. That can only be a good thing, and I would supposed to be taken on capital programmes last week have hoped that he would support it. Perhaps he should have been delayed. Indeed, the LSC’s national projects address his concerns to his party’s Treasury spokespeople, director said: given the 10 per cent. cut in the Department’s budget that his party would make if it had its way. “We made an erroneous assumption that 30 to 40 projects might be shovel-ready, but there are an awful lot more.” Further Education Colleges Does that not indicate to the House that the LSC is still in turmoil? Perhaps the Minister will reassure the House today. Exactly when can our colleges expect to know 5. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What estimate he has whether they will get the money that they so badly made of the costs incurred by further education need? colleges in seeking (a) application in principle and (b) application in detail status for the capital expenditure programmes. [279004] Kevin Brennan: The hon. Lady will know that the previous chief executive of the Learning and Skills The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships Council resigned over the matter and that Ministers and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): The Learning came to the House and gave an explanation and an and Skills Council and independent property consultants apology for what had occurred at the LSC. The new are working with colleges to understand the extent of chief executive wrote just last week to all college principals the costs. Until that work is completed we will not know to explain that he was hopeful of announcing the the exact expenditure that colleges have incurred, but projects that will go through to the next stage of the no college that has acted reasonably will be left unable process very soon, and I have no reason to believe that to meet its financial obligations relating to that matter. that is not the case.

John Howell: Can the Minister tell us how many Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): May I colleges have had to abandon building projects over the congratulate my hon. Friend and fellow MP4 band past nine months, and what impact that will have on mate on a well-deserved promotion to his new post? We their ability to cut costs to meet Treasury efficiency look forward to hearing the song that he will no doubt targets? write about it. On the colleges issue, my hon. Friend will be well Kevin Brennan: It is important to acknowledge the aware of the worry that has been caused, the delay to concern felt as a result of what happened, the fact that the capital programme and the money that colleges there was a review subsequently, and the fact that there have already expended in order to be shovel-ready. In is a process in place through which colleges will receive my constituency, Goole college, which is part of the 923 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 924

Hull college campus, is trying to push forward a project at Prime Minister’s questions, and he was probably as part of the town’s renaissance project; and, in north reasonably pleased with the answer. Barnsley college is Lincolnshire the excellent John Leggott college is shovel- one of the colleges being considered by the Learning ready and a local contractor, Clugston, is ready to go in and Skills Council under the objective criteria following and deliver. Will my hon. Friend look into the issue as a the publication of the Foster report. I am pleased that priority and give those people the news that they hope there has been a high level of investment so far in the to hear? college, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will not have to wait long to hear from the LSC about whether Kevin Brennan: I thank my hon. Friend for welcoming Barnsley college has been successful in its next phase. me to my post. Being shovel-ready—to use the phrase that appears in some papers relating to the issue—is one Adult Numeracy and Literacy of the criteria, along with a scheme’s impact on the local economy and local learning, and so on. Those criteria are now being used to come to an objective 6. Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): What recent decision. On his concerns about the expenditure and assessment he has made of the effectiveness of adult costs that have been incurred so far, as I said in my numeracy and literacy courses. [279006] answer to the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell), reasonable costs will be reimbursed to colleges. I also The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships assure my hon. Friend that the Learning and Skills and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): Since we launched Council’s decisions will be announced shortly. our skills for life strategy in 2001, we have enabled 2.8 million people to achieve nationally recognised Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): qualifications. Our strategy is changing lives and helping I, too, welcome the Minister to his new job or, should I people to find, stay and progress in work, increase their say, jobs, because he has a couple. He has inherited a earnings, help their children and play a more active role lamentable situation, but I wish him personally very in their communities. well and success. Further education colleges are strongly rooted in Laura Moffatt: I very much welcome that response, their local communities and characterised by their localness and I welcome my right hon. Friend to his new position. and accessibility. They successfully attract many learners Does he agree that there are some real signs of improvement from non-traditional backgrounds. What message does in our colleges due to the Government’s early action? the Minister have for the thousands of learners and Job losses, however, remain part of the landscape. Will lecturers who now have to use sub-standard Portakabins he encourage more people to take up the courses so and other accommodation as a result of the continuing that, if they happen to lose their jobs, they will be in a delays that have been caused by the mismanagement of much better place from which to apply for new ones? the capital programme and budget? When does he expect them to have proper classrooms again? Kevin Brennan: I thank my hon. Friend for her welcome, Kevin Brennan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his although she slightly inflated my status. It is important welcome. He and I worked closely together when we that we commit to going further and try to be ambitious were both Whips, and I am sure that that will aid our about our targets and ambitions for literacy and numeracy; working relationship in our new roles. that is why we recently refreshed our skills for life strategy in relation to those skills. It is also important to My message to those learners and to people across remember that the skills impact not only on the adult the country would be that I am positive that far fewer who acquires them, but on that adult’s family. The students are in Portakabins now than under the hon. ability to read a story to the children and help them Gentleman’s party when it was in power. During its last with their sums and homework is really important. It is year in power, it invested not a penny in further education essential that we change the culture around such issues colleges; there were 7 per cent. real-terms cuts in further in our country—particularly in respect of numeracy, education budgets during its last four years of power. which has not been given the importance that it should From what we heard yesterday, I am afraid that it is have been in relation to literacy. We have a lot more to clear that if it came back to power, there would be more do, but good progress has been made so far. of the same. Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) (Lab): Barnsley Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): Should college has spent £12 million in preparing for its capital not numeracy and literacy be taught first in the home? programme refurbishment. It is halfway through a four- We should encourage families to eat together, speak phase redevelopment, two phases of which have already together and learn children the language and social been completed. The third phase led to the demolition skills that they need, rather than leaving that to public of the college. We are not only shovel-ready, to use the sector funding. We need to resolve the problem of silly phrase, but the shovels have been on site since last broken families. year. Our programme has been interrupted, but there is absolutely no reason why the Learning and Skills Council Kevin Brennan: We do, although we should teach the cannot allow the project to continue. Barnsley college is children rather than “learn” them, as the hon. Lady £12 million in debt—technically, it is insolvent. said. Seriously, though, she is right that such skills must start in the home. That is why it is so important that Kevin Brennan: I can reassure my hon. Friend by those basic skills should be taught to adults who have repeating the commitment that no college will be allowed not acquired them. We are trying to address the issue to become insolvent as a result of the process. My hon. from both ends, through, first, improving literacy and Friend raised the matter with the Prime Minister yesterday numeracy delivery in schools. That has been going on 925 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 926 for the past 12 years. Remember that children who Intellectual Property started school in 1997 are now young adults coming through the system. We are also trying to make up for 8. Mr. John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford) the decades of neglect of literacy and numeracy. We (Con): What steps he is taking to tackle illegal could blame Macmillan, Harold Wilson or anyone we distribution of intellectual property. [279008] like, but the legacy needs to be dealt with. That is what we are trying to do. The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual We must try to think family as we try to enable the skills Property (Mr. David Lammy): The Government work to be taught from an early age. to tackle IP crime in three main areas. First, we have to get the legal framework right, so I have been working with my ministerial colleagues on the Digital Britain Higher Education Facilities agenda, particularly on the problem of file sharing. Secondly, we have to co-ordinate enforcement activities. 7. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): What That is why I have set up a new ministerial group to deal recent discussions he has had with the Higher with issues of enforcement and to support the IP group. Education Funding Council for England on new Of course, we also have to raise capacity and awareness. locations for higher education facilities in England. [279007] Mr. Whittingdale: Does the Minister agree that online piracy represents a threat to the survival of the TV, film The Minister for Regional Economic Development and and music industries? What progress has he made in Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): On6May,my persuading internet service providers to take action right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, against illegal file sharers by adopting a graduated Itchen (Mr. Denham) wrote to the HEFCE reaffirming response? Can he confirm that the Government will the Government’s commitment to the new university legislate to back up any action that is agreed? challenge. Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman is right; this is an important issue which is challenging Governments across Sir Alan Beith: Is the Minister aware that probably the world. Indeed, over the weekend elected politicians nowhere in England is further away from any institute have been standing on that agenda in Sweden, and he of higher education than Berwick-upon-Tweed, and will be aware of issues that have been raised in France. that a very good community-based bid involving In this country, we have said that it is important to Sunderland university and institutions on both sides of move to notification, which will reduce file-sharing the border is going to be submitted? May I ask her and activity so that people know that what they are doing is her fellow Ministers to take a close personal interest in illegal, and we will move towards legislating to compel filling this gap and bringing something to Berwick that internet service providers and rights holders to work would be hugely beneficial on both sides of the border? together. Apprenticeship Courses Ms Winterton: As the right hon. Gentleman may know, some 27 areas have expressed an initial interest in 9. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): applying for a new university centre. We have been How much has been allocated to fund apprenticeship delighted with the enthusiastic response from partnerships courses in (a) South-West Bedfordshire and (b) across the whole of England. I am sure that the application England in 2009-10. [279010] from his constituency will be considered alongside all the others, but we certainly take a special interest in it. The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): Funding allocations Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): to apprenticeship training providers in England, including My right hon. Friend will know that in South Yorkshire Bedfordshire, for the 2009-10 academic year have not our only higher education institutions are based in yet been confirmed. The National Apprenticeship Service Sheffield. As long ago as the early 1990s, the three will notify providers later this month. We expect to former coalfield boroughs of Barnsley, Rotherham and spend about £1 billion on apprenticeships in 2008-09 Doncaster were successful in winning city challenge and more than £1 billion in 2009-10. funding from the previous Government. We tried to make our flagship project the establishment of a university Andrew Selous: Why are the Government cutting of the coalfields in the Dearne valley. Would it not be 30 student places at Dunstable college this year? fantastic if this Government could achieve the grand Kevin Brennan: Of course, we are not cutting any objective that the boroughs set, as long ago as the early student places. In relation to apprenticeships in the hon. 1990s, of establishing a university of the coalfields in Gentleman’s constituency, my understanding is that the Dearne valley in South Yorkshire? Bedford Training, for example, has exceeded its maximum contract value and reported a waiting list of 20 learners, Ms Winterton: I know how passionately my hon. but will have enough funding in 2009-10 to recruit all Friend feels about the quite low aspirations, in a sense, 20. However, if I am incorrect about the issue that he to go to university that there have been in our area raises, I will meet him and ensure that we look into it. among young people. I know, not only as a fellow South Yorkshire MP but as the regional Minister, that he has Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I welcome been campaigning extremely hard on that. He is absolutely my hon. Friend to the Department for Business, Innovation right—we need to do everything we can to support and Skills, but I hope that he accepts that there is a young people in our area in going to university. That funding problem. It has been primarily caused by many has been our aim, and it will continue to be so. employers trying to cope with the recession and having 927 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 928 in their terms to cut back, and apprenticeships are one and of being unemployed when they leave university. area in which they are doing so. A number of young Will the Minister, new to these responsibilities, make a apprentices in my constituency have finished only 50 per simple commitment that no young person who has cent. of their courses. I ask my hon. Friend to look at started an apprenticeship will find themselves losing it that problem to see how he can help those young people before they have been able to complete it? to complete their apprenticeships. Kevin Brennan: As I said earlier, some redundancies Kevin Brennan: My hon. Friend makes a valid point, in firms are inevitable during an economic downturn although I should point out to her that adult starts on and a recession, and that could include apprenticeships. apprenticeships have risen from 300 in 2006-07 to 27,000 I have committed to ensuring that the National in 2007-08, so the context is increased investment rather Apprenticeship Service will do all it can to place those than any reduction. We have to make that clear. However, apprentices in similar apprenticeships elsewhere, and she is absolutely right to point out that redundancy that extended training is available if that is not possible can have an impact on apprentices, as it can on anyone in the immediate future. else during an economic downturn. The National Apprenticeship Service provides a one-stop shop for The hon. Gentleman is right about social mobility employers, providers and learners to access information and the need to focus on younger people and support should that occur, and the intention is to place apprenticeships and increase the numbers. As someone apprentices on suitable schemes. Also, the length of from a working-class background, with a steelworker time for which they may undertake training if they for a father and a dinner lady for a mother, I know cannot immediately be placed has been extended. However, something about social mobility and the importance of it is important to set the context of the increased training, education and apprenticeships. I knew as a investment and number of apprentice places. young man growing up in south Wales that many of my friends benefited from the sort of apprenticeships that Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): were decimated when the hon. Gentleman’s party was I welcome the Minister and the rest of the team to their in power. That is why we are making such investment. posts. Members of all parties are really pleased to see We will publish a framework in the summer for apprentices the rise in the number of adult apprenticeships, and the getting through to university. funding for 2010 looks reasonably secure. The problem that the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor) Topical Questions raised was about employers taking part. On 9 June, in a comment to The Guardian, the Chancellor T2. [279025] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): If he will made clear that education would be one of the priorities make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. after 2010, together with housing, transport and health. Will the Minister give the House a categorical guarantee The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat that in that period the funding for adult skills—particularly McFadden): Our Department brings together support adult FE and higher education, which will be crucial to for business and enterprise with innovation, skills and the future of our economy—will be maintained and further and higher education policy to ensure that we not cut? foster competitiveness and spread opportunity. All that Kevin Brennan: The commitment of the Prime Minister is important to Britain’s economic future. and the Chancellor to apprenticeships is well known and long-standing, and I confirm that it will remain an Philip Davies: Are the Government still committed to absolute priority of this Government to grow the number implementing the entire package of reforms proposed of apprentices and invest in them. I have been appointed by Richard Hooper on regulation, pensions and ownership? as Minister with responsibility for apprentices and will Lord Mandelson recently said that that was vital to the work in the Department for Children, Schools and Royal Mail. Is it still vital or has it been ditched to save Families as well as the new Business Department, which the Prime Minister’s skin? shows our commitment to connecting the under-19 and adult apprenticeship schemes. I also commit to engaging Mr. McFadden: The reform of Royal Mail is important, an apprentice in my own private office. and Richard Hooper recommended the three elements that the hon. Gentleman outlined. The Bill to carry Mr. David Willetts (Havant) (Con): I, too, congratulate forward those reforms has completed its stages in the Ministers on their new posts, although we believe that other place and been introduced here. Its Second Reading our colleges and universities are not simply the instruments is a decision for the business managers at the appropriate of a Business Department, and they certainly do not time. On whether all three elements are essential, they look forward to reporting to Alan Sugar. are very important, but, as the Secretary of State also I congratulate the Department on its efforts to improve said, we will continue to try to secure best value for the social mobility with an imaginative new route into the taxpayer, and the timetable for any transaction for House of Lords—four Ministers so far, and at least Royal Mail may be a little longer than that for the another one on the way. Does the Minister recognise legislation. that in order really to improve social mobility we have to spread apprenticeships and provide new routes from T3. [279026] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): This them to university? Does he accept that at the moment, Government have given a clear commitment to the biggest single victims of the recession are young continuing to support business and enterprise during people? They see apprenticeships disappearing even the recession. What additional dividends does my right after they have been started, and they face the prospect hon. Friend anticipate from the appointment of of finding it hard to get to university when they apply, Sir Alan Sugar to the departmental team? 929 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 930

Mr. McFadden: Sir Alan Sugar is one of Britain’s support for that programme. As I said earlier in questions, most well known and respected entrepreneurs. He will the Learning and Skills Council will be announcing act as an adviser to Government—not as a Minister. We decisions in the near future. One criterion in the new believe that it is important to draw on that sort of objective set of criteria that followed the report entrepreneurial talent precisely because of the economic commissioned earlier this year is the ability of any challenges that the country faces. While we draw on the investment to impact on learning. best talent available, others are indulging in parlour games about peers and personalities. We will continue T4. [279027] Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) to draw on whatever talent is necessary to do the best (Con): How many legislative reform orders have economic job for the country. Ministers in the Department laid before Parliament this year? Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): May I congratulate the Minister on his elevation to Cabinet Mr. McFadden: I brought a legislative reform order status in Lord Mandelson’s amazing, ever-expanding on insolvency before the House just some weeks ago, empire, which now stretches from space to defence sales and I recommend the debate to the hon. Gentleman to universities and further education? No doubt Lord very strongly. Mandelson has other territorial ambitions in mind. Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): Will my right hon. On 11 May in the House of Lords, Lord Mandelson Friend comment on the provision of learning for pleasure said: and its importance to communities, and to older people “It would be irresponsible of the Government to allow delays in particular? I thank her for recently leading a lively to the suite of measures needed to reform Royal Mail and secure debate with some lively elderly people in my constituency, the future of the universal postal service… Any delay would merely serve to threaten the sustainability of the network.”—[Official on Bar lane in Riddlesden. Learning for pleasure can Report, House of Lords, 11 May 2009; Vol. 710, c. 848.] mean all sorts of things, and can create cross-departmental savings and advantages. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, The Minister knows that we expected Second Reading I would like to hark back to 1983, when I took a course of the Bill two days ago, on Tuesday. He knows that it is at my local college—I was unemployed at the time—in the acid test of whether this lame-duck Government are teaching English as a second language. As a result, for any longer capable of delivering a difficult decision four years I dedicated my Wednesday mornings to about any important subject. Why is the Bill being teaching young Pakistani women who had entered this delayed if it is not because of the internal political country as wives. They were not allowed to go to the dissension in the extraordinary Cabinet in which he local college, but I was able to introduce them to English, now finds himself serving? which was a useful exercise for them and me.

Mr. McFadden: The right hon. and learned Gentleman The Minister for Regional Economic Development and must know that no date for a Second Reading was Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): I have very fond announced. The Government are committed— memories of the meeting that I had with those lively [Interruption.] The Government are committed to reform older people in my hon. Friend’s constituency. They of the Royal Mail. The challenges that it faces in were extremely keen to put forward their views on how addressing the pension fund deficit, the need for investment important learning is for older people. I am sure that and change, and the need to change the regulatory my hon. Friend will have studied the White Paper “The system are real. We remain committed to the legislation, Learning Revolution”, which sets out an ambitious which will be brought forward. What the Secretary of vision for community learning in the 21st century, with State also said about the transaction is that we have a £30 million of spending added to it. She is quite right duty to secure the best value of money for the taxpayer that there is often a social impact too. The experience and to have an eye to the market conditions, but the that she described is one that I know is shared by many legislation will be brought forward. others. The White Paper will do a lot to encourage that kind of activity. T6. [279029] Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I am very pleased that this year 55 per cent. more young people in T5. [279028] Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) Stockport are going to university than in 1997. The (Con): The Minister responsible for further education new university centre, in which Stockport college of will be aware that the College of West Anglia in my further education has expressed an interest, will constituency is one of those colleges whose capital encourage even more young people to do higher programme has been put on hold. It was to have a new degrees. However, Stockport college is still in campus which would have been the centrepiece and negotiations with the Learning and Skills Council foundation stone of a major regeneration project in about its capital programme. When a final decision is South Lynn. The delay will not only impact on the made, may I urge the Minister to ensure that wider community but cause widespread anxiety among consideration is given to the college’s excellent record the staff, lecturers and students at the college. Will the of achievement and that funding is released so that the Minister confirm that the changes and reorganisations college can complete its new town centre campus? in his Department will not impact in any way on the LSC’s decision? The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): I congratulate Kevin Brennan: I can absolutely confirm that the my hon. Friend on the campaigning and lobbying that changes in the Department will not impact on that, she has done on behalf of her constituents. I know that because we have already set in place the necessary she wrote to the Secretary of State for Innovation, measures to resolve the issue of the pipeline projects—the Universities and Skills earlier this month to reiterate her capital projects for FE colleges—through the Foster 931 Oral Answers11 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 932 review, which has set out the objective criteria that are I have visited colleges, I have spoken to young people to be followed. They include considerations of the who are very grateful for the EMA. It has been a impact on regeneration and on learning, and of whether success. However, I am willing to look into the particular a project is ready to go ahead. I should like to add that, circumstances that he mentions, although that has not in this year’s Budget, the Chancellor pledged an additional been what I have heard as I have gone round the £300 million for that capital project in recognition of its colleges and universities. importance during the economic downturn. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he will not have to wait much John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) longer to hear the results of the LSC’s deliberations. (LD): Notwithstanding the answer that the Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills gave earlier, does not he T8. [279031] Mr. Mike Hall (Weaver Vale) (Lab): May I recognise that the Postal Services Bill seems to have press my hon. Friend on the case for the Mid-Cheshire disappeared into the legislative ether, somewhere between college redevelopment? It is an absolutely fantastic the other place and Committee Room 14? Does not he £35 million redevelopment project for a college that accept that one part of that Bill is of particular importance provides an outstanding quality of education. for the future, whatever happens? That is the regulatory However, the project is not quite shovel-ready, and the toolkit that is needed and that has been agreed on by fact that delays to the shovel-ready projects have those on both sides of the House. If he is not going to already been announced means that colleges further bring the Bill forward, will he at least agree to bring that down the line will face even more delays. The college is measure forward? desperate to know the time lines for the decision on its allocation so that it can plan for the future. It is also Mr. McFadden: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that worried that the LSC’s recent announcements on the regulatory change in postal services is necessary, and criteria used to determine funding do not mention the proposal in the Bill is to put at the heart of the new quality. Surely the funding should follow quality, and regulatory system the maintenance of the universal outstanding colleges such as Mid-Cheshire college service—the six days a week, one-price-goes-anywhere should benefit from that funding. service that is at the heart of our postal system. I remind the House that the conclusion drawn by Richard Kevin Brennan: Funding will follow—or will lead— Hooper was that if we did not change and reform the improved learning opportunities. That is part of the Royal Mail, that service would be under threat. That is project. I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend what has happened in some other countries, and it is has done to promote that project in his constituency. certainly not what we want to see here in the United The projects that are not quite ready to be dealt with at Kingdom. this stage will be dealt with later in the year if they are at the appropriate stage by then. In addition to the £300 million from the Budget, which I mentioned earlier, an additional Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): May I refer £2.3 billion will be spent on these projects during this once again to the LSC’s review of further education comprehensive spending review period. Furthermore, college building, particularly in respect of the Manchester there has already been an indicative letter from the college? In terms of excellence, capacity to learn and Treasury to the Learning and Skills Council about a shovel-readiness, that college’s proposals are high on further pledge of £300 million a year, so this is not the priority list. Manchester college differs from other something that will come to an end—provided, that is, further education colleges in that further education is that we have a Government who are committed to the most likely route in Manchester for the overwhelming making that investment. majority of young people in post-school education, as they do not go in sufficient numbers into higher education. T10. [279033] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): The It thus matters far more that our FE system, which is education maintenance allowance has been a huge already excellent, is improved. I hope that my hon. success. However, one of its problems is that there is a Friend will take that point on board. sharp cut-off related to parental income. One of my constituents, a single parent, has a son at university and Kevin Brennan: As ever, my hon. Friend makes a another in sixth-form college. Does the Minister accept powerful point on behalf of his constituents and shows that the sharp income-related cut-off takes no account his intimate knowledge of the education system in his of additional circumstances and can discourage many constituency. I can only repeat that the LSC is considering people from staying on in education? Will he look all the projects in the pipeline and will make its into that? announcement shortly, based on the objective criteria that we have talked about. We should remember that The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual this is not about whether we should make investment in Property (Mr. David Lammy): I do not think that I can further education, but about how we make it, which is agree with the hon. Gentleman that the scheme discourages in stark contrast to what would happen if the Conservative young people from staying on. Quite the contrary: when party were in power. 933 11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 934

Business of the House Department had been abolished, and subsumed into the empire of “he who must now be named the First Secretary”. This new super-Department has 11 Ministers, 11.31 am over half of whom are non-elected peers—no doubt Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Will the exactly what the Government have in mind as they Leader of the House give us the forthcoming parliamentary discuss their latest schemes for democratic renewal. business? Now that Lord Mandelson is Secretary of State for almost everything—including outer space—and has become The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet the de facto Deputy Prime Minister, is the Leader of the Harman): The business for next week is as follows: House still in favour of her earlier proposal that he should be able to answer questions in the House of MONDAY 15 JUNE—Opposition day (13th Allotted Day). There will be a debate on the impact of business Commons? rates followed by a debate on the impact of the recession May we have a debate on higher education and the on rural communities. Both debates will arise on an prospects of graduates? We must not forget that universities Opposition motion. too have been casually added to Lord Mandelson’s portfolio. However, this is the week in which we learnt TUESDAY 16 JUNE—A general debate on European affairs. that in 2007-08 one in seven students dropped out of university, a quarter failed to finish their degrees, and WEDNESDAY 17 JUNE—Mr. Speaker’s valedictory and almost half the students at London Metropolitan university tributes by the House followed by consideration of quit their courses before the end of the year. Worse still, Lords amendments to the Business Rate Supplements a report published today suggests that 40,000 students Bill. graduating this year, no doubt with heavy debts, will THURSDAY 18 JUNE—Topical debate: subject to be still be struggling to find work in six months’ time. With announced, followed by a general debate on food, farming the scale of the mess that the Government’s have made and the environment. in higher education becoming more apparent by the FRIDAY 19 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. day, does the right hon. and learned Lady really think The provisional business for the week commencing that this is the time to be creating further upheaval in 22 June will include: Departments just to satisfy ministerial empire-building? The reshuffle has also left some important pieces of MONDAY 22 JUNE—The House will meet to elect a Speaker. legislation in complete confusion. May we have a statement on the Government’s immigration policy? Comments TUESDAY 23 JUNE—Second Reading of the Marine made by the departing Home Secretary on the Borders, and Coastal Access Bill [Lords]. Citizenship and Immigration Bill during her appearance WEDNESDAY 24 JUNE—Opposition day [14th Allotted in the Chamber last week left Members on both sides of Day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. the House perplexed about the Government’s basic Subject to be announced. policy on immigration, and about whether they are in THURSDAY 25 JUNE—House Business. favour of a future cap. Given that the British National party managed to win in areas that the Labour party FRIDAY 26 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. had deserted, where much concern was expressed about Alan Duncan: I thank the Leader of the House for the impact of immigration on jobs, does the Leader of giving us the forthcoming business. I also welcome the the House not think that there should now be a clear hon. Member for Worsley (Barbara Keeley) as her new statement of what the Government’s policy on immigration Deputy Leader of the House, and express the appreciation really is? of Opposition Members for the manner in which her Let me repeat a question that I asked last week, and predecessor, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), which Opposition spokesmen pursued during Question who is now an Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Time today: when will we debate the Second Reading of Affairs, conducted himself in that position. His grasp of the Postal Services Bill? May I also ask when we shall detail and his approach to the House was respected and see the draft legislative programme that we would normally appreciated—and his mastery of Spanish, I understand, have seen by this time of year? makes him well suited to his new job as Minister for Last week the right hon. Lady asserted that a Treasury Latin America. [HON.MEMBERS: “And French.”] And Minister had recently updated the House on the progress French, we are told. On his moving, we thus say a of the independent inquiry into Equitable Life friendly adios—and au revoir, too. compensation during a debate in Westminster Hall. I want to take this opportunity to extend our gratitude However, the only real information that the Economic to House staff for keeping this place going during the Secretary to the Treasury gave there was bad news—the tube strike. fact that no actuary had yet been appointed to Sir John May we have a statement—or even a debate—on the Chadwick’s review body. The Government have been legitimacy, remit, structure and organisation of the new deliberately vacillating for months, and I have to say Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? As we that I think the House’s temper is beginning to fray. Will have just heard in parliamentary questions, the recent the right hon. Lady now give an absolute guarantee that reshuffle that the Prime Minister was forced into staging Sir John will produce an interim report—for us, in the has to be seen as one of the most shambolic in political House, before the summer recess—on how Equitable history, with 11 Ministers resigning from the Government Life policy-holders will be compensated? in the course of seven days. Worse still, civil servants in Is the Leader of the House concerned about the fact the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills that since she has become Minister for Women and returned to their desks after lunch to find that their Equality, the number of women in the Cabinet has 935 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 936 actually decreased? Although we know that she could When my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking never be dismissed as mere window-dressing—indeed, if (Margaret Hodge) was being interviewed by George she were, I would immediately become the window Alagiah on Channel 4, she said, “I was born in Egypt cleaner—may I take this opportunity to reiterate my but I could be a member of the British National party support for any bid that she might yet make to become because I am white. You were born in Britain but you Britain’s second woman Prime Minister? I echo the would not be able to be a member of the British comment made on The Guardian website this week: National party because of the colour of your skin.” All “I’d like to see Harriet Harman as Labour’s candidate for PM of us should agree that there is no place in this country at the next election. She’d be just like Margaret Thatcher—a for a political party to have an apartheid constitution, female party leader who convinces millions to vote Tory.” and the Equality Bill will prevent that. Ms Harman: I echo the hon. Gentleman’s appreciative The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan comments about my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda Duncan) asked about the Postal Services Bill, which he (Chris Bryant), the former Deputy Leader of the House, noticed was not in the forthcoming business that I have who now has responsibility for European issues. I agree announced. He knows that I announce two weeks at a that he was a brilliant Deputy Leader—and he does not time. The Bill has completed its stages through the only speak Spanish; I believe that he also speaks French, House of Lords, and he must await the announcement German and Italian. of its arrival in this House. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): And Welsh? The draft legislative programme has been delayed because this year we had elections in June, immediately Ms Harman: And probably Welsh as well. prior to which there was a purdah period; previously Let me also express, on behalf of all of us, our the elections were in May. That affected the timetabling appreciation of the House’s staff in connection with the of the draft legislative programme, which will appear tube strike, and say on behalf of everyone in London very soon. that we expect agreement to be reached. Londoners cannot be held to ransom and have their lives made a The hon. Gentleman asked about Equitable Life. It is misery as a result of a dispute involving the tube, which the policyholders who have lost out in Equitable Life is the backbone of London’s transport structures. who are frustrated and want action quickly. The House will be updated, before it rises, on the progress on The hon. Gentleman commented on the new structure Sir John Chadwick’s investigations. of the Department responsible for business; there have, of course, been departmental questions to that Department As far as women in politics are concerned, I thank this morning. We make no apology for putting supporting the hon. Gentleman for his continued attention to this business and tackling the economic crisis at the centre issue. It is important that women in politics make sure of Government action. That is a priority for this country that we deliver for women in this country. Politics is not and the biggest challenge for Government. We make no about us as politicians; it is about what we as women apology for reconfiguring the machinery of government and men working together can do in respect of the lives to be focused effectively on that task. of women and men in this country. That is why I hope The hon. Gentleman talked about the prospects for that Members on both sides will be prepared to support graduates. It is right that we see further and higher extra maternity pay and leave, more flexible working for education not only as essential for individuals who want balancing work and family responsibilities, ending pay the opportunity to achieve their full potential, but as a discrimination against women and having more women central economic issue. The recovery has to be skills in the House of Commons. based, and include as many people as possible, which is why configuring the universities into the Department Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): On Tuesday, responsible for business at the centre of our economic the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural strategy is very important. Since we came into government Affairs issued a written statement about the situation there has been a massive increase in the number of facing Dairy Farmers of Britain, in which he guaranteed people able to undertake further and higher education. that all parties would work together to try to minimise The most recent figures show that since 1997 there has the impact of the closures taking place and the demise been about a 300 per cent. increase in the number of my of dairy farms. The regional development agency, the constituents who now are able to gain degrees; I am sure banks and the local work force are working together to that the picture will be the same in the hon. Gentleman’s try to avoid the closure of a dairy in my Blaydon constituency. That is massive progress, on which we will constituency, which could happen tonight. The one continue to build. group that it is not doing its bit is the Department for Our immigration policy remains as it ever was: firm, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Please can we fair and points-based. We have all been shocked and have what the Secretary of State offered: an updated horrified by the fact that two great regions of this statement to the House as the situation develops? Please country—the North West and Yorkshire and will the Leader of the House pass that message on to Humberside—are represented by the British National DEFRA from me? party, which has in its constitution a provision that no one who is not white can be a member. Under the Equality Bill that is passing through the House, that Ms Harman: I know that this issue demands urgent constitution will be made unlawful. I know that the attention, and the points that my hon. Friend makes are Opposition voted against the Equality Bill, but I hope very forceful. This needs to be looked at right away, but that they will now strongly support the Bill, which will there will, of course, be an opportunity to discuss these prevent us from having an apartheid political party in matters when there is a general debate on food and this country. farming next Thursday. 937 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 938

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The House. The Prime Minister has come up with a raft of hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) raises a very parliamentary and constitutional reforms from the important issue for all the farmers who are members of “committee on public safety”, or whatever it is called, that co-operative, and I hope that it will be debated. which he urges us all now to embrace. Can the Leader First, may I join in the tributes to the hon. Member of the House give me a clear timetable for implementing for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)? He entertained us in the those proposals? Unless we implement them as a matter debate on the idea of a Dissolution yesterday evening, of urgency, the public will not believe these are genuine despite having been reshuffled to the Foreign Office. My urgent reforms; they will believe they are simply yet only regret is that the Leader of the House was not able more spin to get the Prime Minister out of a difficult to join us for that debate as well. One would have situation. thought that the Dissolution of the House was a business of the House matter—but it seems that as far as the Ms Harman: I thank the hon. Gentleman, too, for his Cabinet was concerned, it was a matter for Wales, and comments about the former Deputy Leader of the Wales only. In any case, the Leader of the House has House, and I would like to take the opportunity to survived in the Cabinet—she is one of the few Members welcome warmly my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley who have done so—and we are glad about that. (Barbara Keeley), who is going to be an excellent successor to the previous excellent Deputy Leader of the House. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan On the machinery of government changes, we should Duncan) raised the issue of the machinery of government. all recognise that what will help the economy for the The Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills future is having a strong economy based on science, was created only two years ago in a great splash of technology, research, manufacturing and higher education. publicity. I have with me a letter from the then Secretary So bringing those all together in a very powerful of State, who has since been reshuffled, in which he says Department at the heart of central Government, which that the new Department gives him the opportunity will work with all the regional development agencies, “to make a real difference to people’s lives”— and with Scotland and Wales, is important. That is a difference that he describes as “enormous and very what lies behind this new machinery of government. exciting.” He goes on to say that the Department As for the economic debate, the hon. Gentleman “will provide a strong, integrated and permanent voice across drew attention to the fact that there will be two Opposition Government for effective investment in research, science and day debates on Monday, and they will touch on the skills at all levels”. economy. There will be a debate on European affairs on This “exciting” and “permanent” addition lasted for Tuesday, which is bound to have the economy as a only two years, however, and then disappeared in order central issue because the global economic crisis obviously to gratify Lord Mandelson. It cannot be right for has to be tackled at the European and international government to be conducted in this way, without recourse level, as well as the national level. One in 10 of the jobs to Parliament, without any parliamentary opportunity in this country depend on Europe, and he can certainly to debate the practicalities and cost-benefit analysis of be confident that for Labour Members the economic such changes. I invite the Leader of the House to give dimension will be very much to the fore in the debate the House the opportunity to discuss how government that we have scheduled for Tuesday 16 June. In addition, is arranged, because such changes cannot be made on a on Wednesday 17 June there will be a debate on the whim. There are costs involved and practical consequences, Business Rate Supplements Bill, so what with the and we should have the opportunity to debate them. Opposition day, and debates on European affairs and I note that the only opportunity to discuss the economy on the Business Rate Supplements Bill, enough debate next week will be provided by the Opposition. The on the economy has been scheduled for next week. If Government, having given us an assurance every week the hon. Gentleman wants, he can suggest a further that there will be such an opportunity, have failed to such debate by way of a topical debate—but I did not provide one. However, we need a debate very soon on think that that was necessary. the prospects for public sector spending. We know now The hon. Gentleman mentioned public spending, that the Conservatives are committed to 10 per cent. and he was right to say that the Conservatives have cuts, but we suspect that the Government, too, are revealed that they would cut it. They have already committed to cuts in public spending. Would it not be shown that public spending will have to be cut to pay better to have an honest, open and grown-up debate for their changes to inheritance tax, which help the about the prospects for public spending, so that we can wealthiest, and for their wish to pay back debt quickly actually see what the consequences will be for our at the expense of cutting public services. They have public services? already said that they want to cut public investment this May we also have a debate on the probation service? year and next—right in the middle of a recession. The Cuts in this area will have a very dangerous effect on Government are determined to ensure that we have our country, and we now know that £120 million is to public investment not only to help us through the be cut from the probation service budget by 2012. recession, but to sustain important public services for Probation work is a difficult enough job without the the future. Of course we will have to pay back debt, but reduction in manpower that will result from that cut. our choice on tax is to increase the rate for the top rate We all know that the probation service is essential to taxpayers to 50 per cent., rather than to give huge protecting the public, so may we have a debate about inheritance tax cuts for a few thousand millionaires. what is envisaged? The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of the probation I was tempted to ask the former Deputy Leader service, and he will doubtless be able to seek to put his about my final point in the course of last night’s debate, questions directly to Justice Ministers at Justice questions but he is at the Foreign Office now, and therefore does next week. There has been a 70 per cent. real-terms not know the answer, so I will ask the Leader of the increase in probation funding over the past 10 years— 939 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 940

Hon. Members: It has all gone on computers. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Can the Leader of the House find time for a debate on family Mr. Heath: Computers that don’t work. courts, because she will be aware of growing concern Ms Harman: It has not all gone on computers that about their operation? The judiciary and social services don’t work; there has been an increase of more than one appear to decide the future of children—in some cases, third in the staff, and reoffending rates have dropped. the children have been kidnapped from their natural parents—and there is no opportunity for the parents or Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Could we the media to cover these particular events. Is it not time have an early debate on the engineering and steel industry? that there was justice and fairness for natural parents? My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (John Children should not be dealt with in court, behind Healey), my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, closed doors and in secret, where only the social services Hillsborough (Ms Smith) and I have asked for an urgent and judiciary have any say and they cannot be held to meeting with the First Secretary of State, because although account. there are some welcome signs of recovery, the lag-time for steel is considerable and orders on the books are Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that down by half. We could be facing a serious situation—there the family courts are incredibly important. They do is potential for closures—in the engineering and steel decide children’s future and make life-changing decisions industry. That would mean that as a recovery takes hold in respect of parents, especially when they order children we would be importing the steel, which until now has to go for adoption or be placed in care. It is because of been made in Britain. We need some temporary bridging the importance of their work and of all those who work help, and that should be discussed fully in this House. If in them that we have introduced a measure of openness it is not, can the Leader of the House urge the First into the family courts. Although we must ensure the Secretary of State to find time, among all his other anonymity and privacy of children whose detailed family responsibilities, to meet my colleagues and me to discuss circumstances are being discussed in the courts, it is also this vital issue? important that there should be public confidence that Ms Harman: I certainly will urge the Secretary of people can see the evidence on which the courts are State for Business, Innovation and Skills to meet my making those decisions, which is why in the past week right hon. Friend and other Members of Parliament or so we have introduced this openness in the family who are concerned about the issues that he has raised. courts, so that people can see that the courts are doing Perhaps we should have a topical debate on the point he their work fairly and that justice is not only done, but is makes about the steel industry, and the effect of this seen to be done. situation not only on the constituency and the region If I could say to my hon. Friend the Member for that he represents, but on Teesside and the north-east. Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy)— We have to ensure that we secure our manufacturing base in these difficult times. That is an issue for many Mr. Speaker: Order. I have made a ruling on this Welsh Members of Parliament too, so I will take what matter. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda he says not only as a request for a meeting with the Gilroy) is making an argument at the side of the Chair, Secretary of State, but as a suggestion for a topical but let us not take that matter any further. It is not debate next Thursday. helpful when hon. Members come to the Chair to put Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Can we the case to me that the Leader of House had something have a debate on food labelling? Has the Leader of the to reply on the matter. [Interruption.] Order. I am not House seen the latest report from the Consumers privy to what the Leader of the House might say, and I Association, which reveals that a number of sandwiches must decide what is taken on the Floor of the House that are on sale to the public labelled as “healthy” and try to make sure that things are properly done. actually contain more salt than nine packets of crisps, and are awash with saturated fat? Should not our law Ms Harman rose— require that salty, fatty rubbish be labelled as such? Mr. Speaker: The right hon. and learned Lady is not Ms Harman: The right hon. Gentleman may find the going to mention anything about the hon. Member for opportunity to raise this issue in the general debate on Plymouth, Sutton, so I take it that that is the end of that Thursday 18 June. matter. I call Mr. Hancock. Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend understands Mr. Mike Hancock (Portsmouth, South) (LD): May I the shock, anger, grief and disbelief of parents, and draw to the attention of the Leader of the House indeed the whole community of Plymouth, on learning early-day motion 581, in my name and that of 242 other of the arrest earlier this week of a nursery worker and hon. Members on the question of a proper requirement the charges today. The police and social services are for food labelling, especially regarding chicken? clearly offering support, but will she advise me and keep [That this House believes that all chicken meat, including me informed of any appropriate opportunities to raise imported chicken meat, should be labelled as to farming the issues that will inevitably flow from the concerns of method and preferably stocking density; further believes the parents and the community? the labelling regulation that requires packs of shell eggs to be labelled as to production method should be extended Ms Harman rose— to chicken meat; congratulates Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Plymouth, and Compassion in World Farming on their Chicken Out! Sutton (Linda Gilroy) may not realise it, but this matter campaign calling on supermarkets to introduce labelling is now sub judice because there has been a charge. It is as to farming method to allow consumers to make informed best that we move on. choices; notes that most UK chickens are still reared 941 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 942

[Mr. Mike Hancock] I welcome that statement. Can the Leader of the House now fill in the details? Who will sit on this new commission, intensively in overcrowded conditions and have been bred what form will it take and when will it be set up? Is not to grow so quickly that many suffer from lameness and the need for this commission the final nail in the coffin heart problems; and calls on the Government to make it a of the Modernisation Committee? requirement for all chicken producers to meet the conditions of the RSPCA’s Freedom Food scheme.] Ms Harman: I realise now that I failed to respond to When her ministerial colleagues come to the House the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome on the time next Thursday for the debate on food, farming and the frame for the announcements that were made by the environment, will she ask them to introduce proposals Prime Minister yesterday. There will be the opportunity to make it a requirement on chicken producers to follow for me to bring before the House a resolution that will the Freedom Food scheme promoted by the RSPCA to establish the Committee of the House, made up of—I provide proper transparency and an understanding of hope—senior Members who have put a lot of time and what people are actually eating when they eat chicken effort into these issues, as the right hon. Gentleman has products? done, so that we can look at many of the proposals that have come, not just from the Modernisation Committee, Ms Harman: As I said to the right hon. Member for but from the Procedure Committee and ad hoc groups East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), there is a debate on food, such as Parliament First. Then we can see whether we farming and environment next Thursday. The questions can complete this work within a limited time frame, of food labelling, nutritional standards, school meals preferably before the House rises for summer. After all, and healthy diets should perhaps be the subject of a most of these proposals have been knocking around for topical debate. some time. Members of the House need to get together and say Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): May I urge what we need to do now to ensure that the House can on my right hon. and learned Friend the argument for a work more effectively, especially in relation to the choosing debate on public spending because it is in the interest of and timetabling of non-Government business, especially the whole country to know where cuts would fall. on e-petitions and on strengthening the integrity and People in the public sector want to know whether those work of Select Committees. We should not hang around: 10 per cent. of cuts would impact on their jobs, and on we should make some decisions. It is right that that is education and many other areas. Even people working not led by the Government, but by a Committee of the in private firms dependent on Government contracts House. To facilitate that, I will bring a resolution to the need to know how they would be affected. My right House to set that Committee up. hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) I cannot tell the House at this stage how many mentioned the steel industry, and that too would be hit members the Committee will have or who they will be, by a 10 per cent. cut in public spending. It is important because we will have to have discussions on that. However, that we tease out where the Opposition parties—not if hon. Members would like to put themselves forward just the Conservative party—stand on public spending, to be considered for the Committee, they can let me because it will affect people’s lives. know. Ms Harman: I will take that as a suggestion for a As for the timeliness of the measures to restore public topical debate. The hon. Member for Somerton and confidence, the House will know that shortly we will Frome (Mr. Heath) said that we needed a further debate have complete transparency on all the claims made by next week on the economy, and we do have the opportunity hon. Members and the allowances paid over the last of a topical debate. Perhaps we could have a topical four years. The House authorities will put those on the debate on the impact on the economy and on public website very shortly. That transparency will be reassuring services of future investment in public spending. to the public. We are clear that every penny of public money invested The House will also know, from the Prime Minister’s must be properly spent; that we have to bring the public statement yesterday, that there will be legislation on a finances back into balance over the medium and longer new Parliamentary Standards Authority. The Justice term; and that the taxes that should go up should be Secretary and I held talks with the leaders of all the those on the highest earners. We are determined to other parties yesterday. I hope that we can have the protect capital investment in policing, education, health necessary legislation before the House—and conclude and transport. A 10 per cent. cut in public investment all stages—before the House rises for the summer. The would cause serious concern for those services and all public want complete transparency. They also want to those who work in them. I will look to make that the see that we are no longer deciding the rules for our subject of a topical debate next Thursday, so that the allowances and administering them. They want that to Opposition will have plenty of time to explain to those be done independently, and that is something on which who depend on the public services how they will withstand all the party leaders agree. It is not technical and 10 per cent. cuts. complicated, so we should just get on and do it. The third element of restoring public confidence Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): In concerns those occasions on which Members were paid the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday on constitutional allowances to which they were not entitled and that did renewal, he said that the Government not comply with the rules as they were at the time, “will work with a special parliamentary commission comprising which might have been the result of a mistake, not Members from all sides of this House, convened for a defined wrongdoing. Whatever the reason, those overpayments period to advise on necessary reforms”.—[Official Report,10June need to be paid back. The reassessment process will 2009; Vol. 493, c. 797.] apply to all Members, not just those of a particular 943 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 944 party. All claims for the past four years will be considered. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): The public can then be sure of complete transparency. I am grateful to the Leader of the House for organising All the claims will be on the website and there will be a a general debate on European affairs. Can she arrange new independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), to administer all claims, and money that needs to be who has been working very hard in the European paid back will be paid back. We can also improve the Councils to try to get an amendment on the extension way in which this House does business, and in that way of copyright for recording artists, to be at that debate? we will ensure that the public have the confidence that Is she aware that a meeting of COREPER takes place they are entitled to have in this House of Commons. today and that the Czech presidency is abusing its position as president to keep the British proposal to Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Would extend copyright to 70 years off the agenda? The Czech my right hon. and learned Friend agree that some of the presidency is trying to keep it off the agenda for the constitutional issues trailed yesterday by the Prime Minister Council meeting at which the matter should be decided are so fundamentally important that they should be before its presidency ends. fully debated in this Chamber? As Chairman of the Children, Schools and Families Committee, I single out The work of the British Department for Innovation, the proposed change to voting age. It is fashionable to Universities and Skills must be commended on getting think that reducing the voting age to 16 is a brave, new the issue on to the agenda and on getting it the support approach, but the implications of becoming an adult at of Parliament. Surely we cannot allow subterfuge by 16, and losing all the protections of “Every Child the Czech presidency to prevent this matter, which has a Matters” and the five outcomes, are very serious. We majority in Council, from going to Council. must not imperil children and truncate childhood without serious deliberation. Ms Harman: My hon. Friend has made a number of important points which I will draw to the attention of Ms Harman: The argument about the age at which the Ministers who will be participating in the European people are entitled to vote is worth having. No one affairs debate next Tuesday. could get the impression from the statement that the Prime Minister made yesterday that a snap decision would be made on that. I have indicated those aspects Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): of the statement on which we want prompt and expedited May we have a debate on the effectiveness and action, but the Prime Minister also mentioned areas in accountability of regional development agencies? The which further debate is necessary. I know that people Government say that RDAs are key to promoting economic have strongly held views on different sides of the argument recovery, but this week, the South West of England about voting at 16. I think that there is a strong case for Regional Development Agency announced tens of millions very good citizenship education in schools, and as soon of pounds-worth of cuts in funding, which means that as that is finished, people could come out of the classroom projects such as dredging the docks in Falmouth, which into the polling station. There is an argument for votes will safeguard existing jobs and create new jobs, will at 16. I appreciate that some people do not think so, but now not go ahead. Does that not make a mockery of no one can seriously argue that giving young people the the scrutiny process, as the regional Select Committee right to vote at 16 is equivalent to child abuse. We need will, at best, get to take a look at the decision after it has a sensible debate. already happened?

John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con): Further to the Ms Harman: The regional Select Committees, in question by the hon. Member for Huddersfield particular—and the regional Grand Committees, when (Mr. Sheerman) and in the light of the Prime Minister’s they start their work—will be able to hold the chief statement yesterday on constitutional renewal, may we executives of RDAs to account for their plans. They please have a debate next week in Government time on will be able to require them to set out their plans and the Floor of the House on pre-legislative scrutiny? will scrutinise them, especially if the agencies do not Given that there is widespread agreement across the stick to those plans or deviate from them in a way that parties about the benefits of such scrutiny, but that in damages the local economy. I do not know whether the the Session 2007-08 only nine of 31 Government Bills hon. Lady plays a part in the regional Select Committee, were published in draft, would not such a debate allow but hon. Members should not complain about the the Government the opportunity to state whether they democratic deficit in terms of the RDAs unless they are agree that in future, pre-legislative scrutiny in the name prepared to participate in the Select Committees that of better Bills should become the norm rather than the have been established precisely to hold them to account. exception? Ms Harman: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): sentiments. We need more scrutiny in advance. The I have been making complaints on behalf of my constituents publication of the draft legislative programme is an for some time about the poor performance of rail attempt to ensure that the public can be more involved services on the section between Milton Keynes and in the likely legislative process. We need more Bills to be Euston. Those services have been improving but last published in draft, but if the time scale is urgent we also week there were a series of failures that were the need to retain some flexibility for the Government. The responsibility of Network Rail involving speed restrictions, ability to publish clauses in draft also exists. points failures, loss of signalling and a complete signalling I agree with the sentiment that the hon. Gentleman failure, which caused major disruptions. May we have a has expressed, although I am not quite sure where his debate about Network Rail’s stewardship of the west suggestion would come in the process, but I will reflect coast main line track and its inability to allow the train on that point. operators to deliver reliable services for my constituents? 945 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 946

Ms Harman: I know that this issue affects a number to the Dispatch Box 12 times and given a reassurance of Members. Indeed, it was raised in last week’s business that the Bill would be published soon or imminently. We questions. I think it would be a useful subject for a have been given that answer 12 times in the past year. Westminster Hall debate and I pay tribute to the work The Prime Minister came to the Dispatch Box again that my hon. Friend has done on behalf of her constituents yesterday and told us of his apparent commitment to in Milton Keynes, because railway services are an important constitutional renewal, but that will appear to be just issue for her constituents. another empty promise unless the Leader of the House can give us a firm date for the publication of the Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde) (Con): At its conference Constitutional Renewal Bill and its debate in the House. yesterday, the NHS Confederation indicated that it believes that, after 2011, the NHS will face the most Ms Harman: Hon. Members will know from the sustained and severe fall in funding in its history. Given Prime Minister’s statement yesterday that certain additional that that is an important ingredient in the requests that measures on the constitution will be considered apart have been made for a debate on public expenditure, will from those contained in the Constitutional Renewal the Leader of the House temper her enthusiasm for Bill, which was subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by a granting that debate for a moment until the National Committee of this House and of the House of Lords. Audit Office has had a chance to publish an independent The measures in the Bill will be considered, but they will report that illustrates what public expenditure actually be accompanied by additional measures, the first of means—Department by Department—in years two and which being the subject of the all-party talks that began three of the current public expenditure round? It is clear yesterday—the setting up of a Parliamentary Standards from what the NHS Confederation says that that is Authority. when the Government cuts will bite. Several hon. Members rose— Ms Harman: Obviously, we consider any reports from Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I the NAO and listen to what is said by the NHS have been in the Chair for only a few minutes, but I have Confederation, but nobody could doubt the Government’s a sense of long questions and answers. If I am to try commitment to the national health service since 1997. and get every hon. Member in, I should like to request We have made a massive investment in hospitals, clinics short, single questions, and, I hope, concise answers. I and in the training of doctors, dentists and nurses, as call Dr. Brian Iddon. well as given a massive commitment to health services across the board, none of which would have happened Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): Thank had the Conservatives remained in power. If public you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At my advice surgery last spending is slashed, the people who will suffer will be Saturday, I received two complaints about the behaviour those who cannot afford to go private. We will protect of private parking companies. The more outrageous public services. involved a woman who took a party of children to a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant in my constituency Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): May I say to my right only to find, when she came out, that a hefty fine had hon. and learned Friend that when we have the debate been placed under her windscreen wipers. Similar things on public expenditure, we should examine the Tory are happening across the land, and KFC is particularly 10 per cent. cuts, but it is also important that we should prone to complaint. My right hon. Friend the Member have a balanced debate? Does she agree that we should for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) had an Adjournment debate consider the impact of the Government’s public expenditure in Westminster Hall on the matter last week, so please of the past 12 years on constituencies such as mine, may we have a topical debate so that all hon. Members which have seen massive investments of capital expenditure can bring the complaints to the Floor of the House? In on schools, health care facilities, children’s centres, nurseries that way, perhaps we can persuade the companies to and sports facilities, with a new running track and a behave more decently. massive refurbishment of the library and learning centre in my constituency. Should we not consider the impact Ms Harman: That might be a good subject for a on our constituencies of the Government’s public debate in Westminster Hall. expenditure? Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): May I gently Ms Harman: I will take my hon. Friend’s contribution put it to the Leader of the House that her excellent to mean that he adds his weight to the suggestion that critique of the British National party was rather spoiled we have a debate on the economy, and, in particular, on by the suggestion that the official Opposition opposed the effect of capital spending. The important point is the Equality Bill? She knows full well that we put down that capital spending is not just about jobs, such as a reasoned amendment and that, when it failed, we those in the construction industry—when the private supported giving the Bill a Second Reading. Looking at sector construction has been hard hit, it would be the business for the next two weeks, may I assure her disastrous to cut investment in public capital, which that she need not be worried about the Postal Services provides jobs—but we also need to continue to invest in Bill not getting through on Second Reading? It has the education, transport and policing. I shall take his proposals full support of those on the Opposition Benches. as a suggestion for a topical debate next week. Ms Harman: I do not see how the Opposition can say Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): The that they are in favour of the Equality Bill, given that Constitutional Renewal Bill was published in draft almost they did not vote for giving it a Second Reading in this two years ago. It has been the subject of pre-legislative House. They voted against it, and proposed an amendment scrutiny and over the past year I have asked questions that used the words about this on numerous occasions. Ministers have come “declines to give the Bill a Second Reading”. 947 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 948

In any language, that means that the Opposition were Ms Harman: We want the Mayor of London to play against it, but I believe that there is more agreement in his part in bringing all sides together to make sure that this House about equality than meets the eye. I do not the backbone of London’s transport network is working want the Equality Bill to be one of the big dividing lines properly for Londoners. We need a proper public transport between Government and Opposition. I would appreciate system, not megaphone diplomacy or soundbites from it if the Opposition would support it, even though they any side. wanted to decline to give it a Second Reading. I know that I must try to keep my answers as brief as possible, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but, to clear up any Several hon. Members rose— possible misunderstanding, I think that the fact of the matter is that George Alagiah was not born in England. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am now going to turn to a member of the Chairmen’s Panel, who I know will Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Next set the House a good example. I call Mr. David Taylor. week, Government and Opposition peers will have a free vote on a clause inserted by this House into the David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): Political Parties and Elections Bill that gives candidates Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can we have a ministerial in general elections the option of having their full home statement on the future of the Forensic Science Service? address on ballot papers—which is what happens at Restructuring proposals would lead to a third or more present—or to have their constituency address there of its staff losing their jobs. As we know, the FSS instead. True to form, however, the Liberal Democrats provides a comprehensive, integrated and world-class in the upper House are imposing a three-line Whip service in 120,000 cases a year, from crime scene to against the clause. They say that they are doing so on courtroom. We really must try to protect that skill base, the grounds that they want this House to have a better if at all possible. opportunity to debate the matter. If the clause comes back to this House, will the Government guarantee that Ms Harman: I will ask the new Home Secretary to we will have time to debate it and vote on it again, if write to my hon. Friend on that matter. necessary?

Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): Ms Harman: We will of course try to make sure that I am not only in favour of the Equality Bill, I am in all the issues involved are properly debated when the favour of giving it proper scrutiny, including at Report Bill comes back to this House. stage in this House. The Leader of the House will know that I welcome the moves by the Prime Minister to Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): The Leader of reach all-party agreement on how we can programme the House will share my concern and disappointment that scrutiny better. In the meantime, however, will she that flying the flags of the British overseas territories accept that she is in charge of the Bill and that, when it and the Crown dependencies at the trooping the colour comes out of the Public Bill Committee and returns to ceremony has once again been ignored. I refer her to the Floor of the House, it is up to her to ensure that early-day motion 1644: there is enough time to give all the groups of amendments [That this House looks forward to the 2009 Trooping the proper scrutiny? I hope that she will give an assurance Colour ceremony on Saturday 13 June to mark the Official that there will be proper consultation and enough time Birthday of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II; notes with to ensure that all those aspects are covered. pride that the flags of all the nations of the Commonwealth are always displayed in and around Horse Guards Parade Ms Harman: I certainly want that to be the case. We for this great occasion; and calls on the Government to want to listen to all sides of the House and to have ensure that the flags of all Her Majesty’s Territories are proper scrutiny of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman has also flown in time for the ceremony, including Her Majesty’s been entirely consistent in his concern to ensure that Crown Dependencies of the Isle of Man. Jersey, Guernsey, amendments brought forward after Committee stage Alderney and Sark, together with Her Majesty’s Overseas are scrutinised on the Floor of the House. That is really Territories of Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, important, and I hope that the Committee under the British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, chairmanship of the Chair of the Public Administration Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Committee will be able to look into that, as well as the Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Ocno Islands, St. Helena, other matters that it has been asked to consider. Ascension Island, Tristan da Cuhna, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands and the Turks and Caicos Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): May we have Islands.] an urgent debate on industrial relations in London Underground? It appears that, before the dispute started Will she ensure that the Minister responsible for this at 6 pm two nights ago, the union signed an agreement great British occasion makes sure that the flags are that would have meant the suspension of the strike. Yet, flown and that we respect all our British territories, as 35 minutes later, members of the management told the well as countries in the Commonwealth? union that they had made a phone call and could no longer abide by the agreement that had just been signed. Ms Harman: I will draw the hon. Gentleman’s point We need a debate to establish exactly who that phone to the attention of the responsible Minister. call was made to, as there is a real suspicion that the fingerprints of the Mayor of London are all over the Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): I provocation of the dispute. If the Mayor interfered and was very pleased that the Child Poverty Bill received its caused the suspension of the strike to be lifted, I think First Reading today. Will the Leader of the House say hon. Members ought to be made aware of that. when Second Reading will be, and can she assure me 949 Business of the House11 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 950

[Andrew Selous] make sure that we take every action that we can to tackle the problems of the global economic crisis. I that we will not read anything about the Bill in the hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that there is no papers before Members have had a chance to pick it up place in British national life or in our democracy for a from the Vote Office tomorrow? party that excludes people because of the colour of their skin. Ms Harman: There has been extensive consultation and discussion already about the Bill to tackle child Mr. Bone: Kettering General Hospital NHS Foundation poverty, as well as statements about its contents. There Trust is closing a hospital outpatients facility in my is a distinction between statements and Bills. If a Secretary constituency and moving it to a small town in another of State or a Minister comes to the Dispatch Box to constituency. The matter will come before the local make a statement, Members of the House do not expect planning committee. The chief executive of the trust to hear the contents of that statement on the radio or has said that unless the planning committee approves television beforehand, with TV and radio interviewers the proposal, it is likely that the whole scheme will be being the first to ask questions. When there is a statement, dropped. May we have a debate on the accountability of the first people to ask questions must be Members of the chief executives of NHS foundation trusts who this House, but the publication of Bills and consultation clearly try to blackmail a planning committee? papers is a different issue. Ms Harman: Perhaps that is something that I should Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have an urgent draw to the attention of Health Ministers, and perhaps debate on immigration and political correctness? I represent they could write to the hon. Gentleman. an area where a British National party MEP was elected, and I suggest that people voted for that party not Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) because they endorse its nasty breed of politics but (Con): May we have a debate on the future of the because they are frustrated that the mainstream political distribution industry? Cities such as Milton Keynes are, parties do not appear to be addressing their legitimate because of their geographical location, traditionally the concerns. The way to take on the BNP is not to hire a home of many such companies. Unfortunately, as a rent-a-mob to throw eggs at its members and jostle result of rising fuel and vehicle duty, many of those them when they make public statements, but to address companies are struggling. For example, this week, TK the issues that are leading so many people to vote for Maxx in Milton Keynes closed its distribution centre, the party out of frustration, even though that is misguided. with the loss of 275 jobs, and moved it to Poland. What does it say about the policies of this Government when Ms Harman: Throughout history and across Europe, companies feel that they have to move their businesses people’s fears about their jobs and their standard of to Poland, rather than stay in Milton Keynes? living has always provided an opportunity for far-right parties to stir up apprehension. That is why we are so Ms Harman: One of the most important tasks of the determined to step in. We will not just say that the new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is recession should take its course, or that unemployment to make sure that we get the right climate to enable is a price worth paying, and we do not accept that businesses of all sizes—large, medium and small—to people who lose their jobs will lose their house. Instead, survive, make it through the downturn, and flourish in we will provide real help for people in tough times and this country, and to have a more prosperous future. 951 11 JUNE 2009 Points of Order 952

Points of Order conscious of the fact that, through a typographical error in documentation, another Committee of the House had a slight mishap in its timings, but the situation 12.31 pm was not as drastic as that which she described. As to the Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): On a substance of her point, I am sure that she understands point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. A number of hon. that I cannot rule on that from the Chair, but she has Members convened this morning at 8.55 am to attend had the opportunity to put her point on the record. the Fifth Delegated Legislation Committee to consider Perhaps, if she was seeking an answer from the Leader the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) of the House, her point might have been better put as a (Amendment) Regulations 2009. The Committee was question during business questions. However, she has abandoned and cancelled at very short notice—at 5 minutes made her point. The Leader of the House may seek to to 6 o’clock last night—causing inconvenience not only pursue the matter through a point of order, but I am to us but more especially to staff, who travelled long unable to make any ruling. distances in desperate circumstances today, during the tube strike. Much more worrying to the wider public is The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet the fact that the amending regulations— Harman): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If the hon. Member for Vale of York Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): They are (Miss McIntosh) had given me a bit of notice, and had very important. asked a question in business questions, I would have sought the opportunity to answer her question. I am Miss McIntosh: Yes, and they are due to take effect not able to give her the precise answer that she needs on 7 July. The regulations are hugely out of date; they now, but I will look into the matter. If it appears to be should have been brought into force on 1 May 2008. No helpful to do so, the Deputy Leader of the House or I explanation was given for the cancellation of the Committee; might pop up with a point of order later, so that the we were told that it was due to unforeseen circumstances. House can know what the position is regarding that That means that businesses have extremely short notice Committee. of the need to implement the provisions, which, as I say, are due to come into effect on 7 July. The cost is Mr. Deputy Speaker: I do not think that we can do estimated to be £95.7 million to businesses, charities better than that. and voluntary bodies, and £2 million to the public sector. BILL PRESENTED I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to use your good offices to ask the Leader of the House, while she is in CHILD POVERTY BILL the Chamber, when we can expect the regulations to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) come before the House. We are prepared to consider them and give them proper scrutiny, but it is unacceptable Mr. Stephen Timms, supported by the Prime Minister, for the Committee to have been cancelled at the shortest Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Ed Balls, possible notice. I am sure that many hon. Members, and Secretary Yvette Cooper, Mr. Liam Byrne, Jim Knight, the staff who were asked to assist us in considering the Dawn Primarolo, Helen Goodman and Kitty Ussher, regulations, were not made aware of the cancellation. It presented a Bill to set targets relating to the eradication is unacceptable to cancel at such short notice. of child poverty, and to make other provision about child poverty. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): First, I Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time regret it if inconvenience was caused to Members and tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 112) with explanatory staff in the way that the hon. Lady described. I am notes (Bill 112-EN). 953 11 JUNE 2009 Carers 954

Carers Direct, which I will say more about in a moment. One of the concerns that people there raised was the lack of [Relevant documents: The Fourth Report of the Work awareness of the needs of carers among the host of and Pensions Committee, Session 2007-08, HC 485-I, on different organisations and individuals whom they Valuing and Supporting Carers, and the Government’s encounter in the health service and on local councils. I response, First Special Report of the Committee, Session agree with them that it is important that professionals 2008-09, HC 105.] and others who offer support for carers do so while Topical debate understanding their needs. That is why, over the next two years, Skills for Care and Skills for Health will 12.35 pm develop a range of new training programmes and awareness-raising modules about carers for those The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil professionals. We have also commissioned the Royal Hope): I beg to move, College of General Practitioners to develop training for That this House has considered the matter of carers. GPs, based on the new action guide for primary care, to I am pleased to open this debate on carers during help GPs better understand carers’ needs. national carers week. The way we look after people with care and support needs defines us as a society. Everyone, Mr. Fraser Kemp (Houghton and Washington, East) at some point in their lives, will know and love someone (Lab): Of course we all welcome training for professionals who needs care. Many of us will need care ourselves, for in the field. In common with many other hon. Members, whatever reason. It is an indication of the strength of I met some carers in my constituency on Friday. One of our society that every day, between 5 million and 6 million the issues that came up was training for carers, not the people care for their family members. They do an professionals. One constituent said that she had gone incredible job, often giving up a huge amount to care on a training course that had dealt with the particular for someone they love. Carers are not a group separate complex issues affecting her son. She said that she could from the rest of society—they are society. not express of what huge benefit that was to her in understanding his condition and disability. I know that Through the 10-year carers strategy, which, as some some research projects are going on, but I ask the hon. Members will remember, we launched almost exactly Minister to consider training for carers as well as a year ago today, the Government want all carers to be professionals. universally recognised and valued as being fundamental to strong families and stable communities. That is the Phil Hope: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention unifying vision for the future of our long-term strategy. to that matter. I will say more about it in a moment. I We want support that is tailored to meet an individual’s know that he is a real champion for carers in his needs. We want carers to be able to care for the ones constituency. We have a training programme, which I whom they love and still enjoy a life of their own. We shall say more about later, called Caring with Confidence, demand recognition that both carers and the cared for which is not for professionals; it is for carers, and is are full and equal citizens. delivered by carers, which I think is quite unique. That We have a lot to do before we realise that vision but, is extra work that we are doing. He is right to highlight one year on, we are on our way. One person who will the issue, and we are responding directly to the concerns help us to realise that vision is the chair of the standing that he raises on behalf of his constituents. commission on carers. I am delighted to announce to It is really important that GPs understand the additional the House that Dr. Philippa Russell has been appointed help that there is for carers, so that when a carer goes to to that role. I want to place on record my thanks to her them with health needs, they not only help to meet and all members of the commission for the work that those requirements but signpost—refer—the carer to they are doing to develop, implement and monitor the other sources of support in their area. strategic vision, alongside the cross-Government programme board that has been established, and of course the Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): The Minister inter-ministerial group, which I chair. referred to extended family pathfinders, and I was waiting I want to begin by recognising the particular contribution for a little more expansion on that theme, but he moved and needs of young carers. We have a special duty to on rather quickly. Will he explain how the scheme will support young carers and to protect them from excessive be co-ordinated? Will its co-ordination be the function caring burdens and inappropriate caring roles. As part of health services, social services, education or GPs? of our £75-million Think Family programme to support all families at risk, the Department for Children, Schools Phil Hope: I shall happily write to the hon. Lady to and Families has set up six extended family pathfinders give her those further details. The pathfinders scheme for young carers. The Department of Health is supporting operates through the Department for Children, Schools those pathfinders to test how we can better support and Families. Its purpose is to look at the needs of families with young carers. We believe that young people families—as a whole—that are in stress or in areas of who have caring responsibilities for a family member disadvantage, which find it difficult to get through life should not be denied the right to enjoy their childhood, as a family and have complicated caring arrangements and to grow up like every other child. and responsibilities, and to understand what works Yesterday, together with the Under-Secretary of State when building a package of support around a family. for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for We want to pilot and test those things in different Chatham and Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw), who is the settings—rural, urban and so on—so that we can Minister with responsibility for disability, I met carers understand what families need. However, I shall write in Islington and Camden at the official launch of the to her to detail where they are, how they are funded and new website and telephone helpline for carers, Carers so on, so that she understands those points. 955 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 956

Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): I thank the Minister elderly people. Many carers are being short-changed by for giving way on the point about support care packages, an outdated benefits system, which simply does not because one of my constituents sadly died after a support recognise the enormous contribution that carers make package was not put in place. Mr. Tonkin starved to looking after people who need them to stay at home himself to death in a care home while waiting to return and give up their jobs in order to assist them. What does to his family. It took more than five months to begin my hon. Friend have to say on that point? putting a care package together, but still it never came together, despite the family wishing to support Mr. Tonkin’s Phil Hope: I shall come on to allowances and benefits return to his own home. I therefore caution the Minister, in a few moments, but my right hon. Friend is right to because introducing new structures might sound very suggest that there is a concern about whether the good, but we currently have structures—in terms of combination of allowances and benefits works in the carers and care packages—that are not working. best way, because it is a complicated system. Whatever the processes are for reviewing, developing and reforming Phil Hope: The hon. Lady will understand that I that process, however, right here and now help is at cannot comment on a particular case, because I do not hand, because individuals can go to the new website know the details. However, I do know that we have to that I have described, look at the benefits system and do both: drive up the standards of residential and allowances, see what they qualify for and ensure that domiciliary care throughout the country. I am therefore they get all their entitlements to help them get through delighted that the Government have given not only the situation. ordinary grants to local authorities, but an additional £520 million to help the process of transforming social Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Lab): I care and raising the quality of care throughout the thank the Minister for this morning seeing the Swale country. Responsibility for the quality of care rests with carers group, whose members are listening in the Gallery. the Care Quality Commission, which conducts inspections If we included Skype on that website, we could connect of care homes and others who might provide the care to carers and enable them to talk to each other and share which she refers. their experiences. It is the isolation that they feel most of all. Will that provision be on the site? There is also a separate complaints process in place, which the hon. Lady—on behalf of her constituents Phil Hope: I did enjoy meeting, just before the debate, and, indeed, the family of her constituent—can use, the Swale carers group, whose members are here to—I particularly in respect of local authorities, if an individual hope—listen to and take back messages from the House has not received the care that would be expected. She about the support that is available for carers. Carers can use the complaints process to take the matter forward. Direct, the new website, has an interactive facility, and my hon. Friend is right to point out that people feel Anne Main: Will the Minister give way? isolated. I do not know whether many carers blog, but Phil Hope: I shall happily give way to the hon. Lady, there is a blogging facility on the site. People can although the debate is moving on. literally type in their thoughts, feelings and problems, and watch and listen to other people with similar problems Anne Main: I should not like to leave the Minister and share information. That facility will break down with the wrong impression that the care home was at the barriers for many people who feel isolated in the fault; it was the inability to put a care package together, very important role that they carry out. through the Department for Children, Schools and Families, so that the family could have Mr. Tonkin go Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): The home. The care home itself treated him very well, Minister talked about NHS funding and £150 million apparently. I do not wish to leave the Minister with the that has been allocated over two years, but will he say impression that it was a poor care home. more about how carers and others will be able to track how it is spent in order to assure themselves that their Phil Hope: I am grateful for that clarification. primary care trusts allocate it and spend it on carers’ I shall move on to respite care, because we know that needs? caring for someone can be hard. Six out of 10 carers say that the biggest thing that we can do to help them is to Phil Hope: I know that the hon. Gentleman, speaking give them a break. That message was repeated by the as a Liberal Democrat, is fully supportive of devolution carers whom I met at Centre 404 in Islington yesterday. and of devolving responsibility for resources and decision Since we introduced the carers grant in 1999, more than making to a local level. He will know that the additional £1 billion has been provided to councils to do just that. £150 million that we have put into PCT budgets, although The grant is worth £240 million this year and will not ring-fenced, is for the purpose to which he referred. increase to £256 million next year. It includes £25 million Part of his responsibilities as a local MP, along with a year for councils to respond immediately to carers those of carers, might be to ensure that the local primary who are in a crisis and can no longer care for their loved care trust understands the needs of carers, does the job one. Encouraging the national health service to recognise that it should be doing to assess people’s needs and that support for carers is as much an issue for it as it is ensures that it allocates from its budget the money that for local councils and social care, so we have allocated the Government have allocated to it to support carers in an additional £150 million to primary care trusts between the area. I hope that he works with local carers to 2009 and 2011 to work with their local authority partners ensure as much—and, indeed, that every Member works to provide personalised breaks for carers. with local carers to ensure that local primary care trusts and authorities carry out proper needs assessments and Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): My constituency the proper development of programmes and policies to has a very high percentage of disabled people, because support carers, who do such a fantastic job throughout of past industrial disease, and a very high percentage of the country. 957 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 958

Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): I am grateful that people do not understand the benefits and allowances to the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. available to them. They may not know what is available He mentioned, in addition to health service funding, in their areas. If they get on the website or use the funding to local authorities. My constituents in Wiltshire helpline, they can find out more and access the support will be slightly baffled by that, however, because the that they need to do their job better and reduce the county is at the very bottom of the league table for sense of isolation mentioned by my hon. Friend. revenue support grant to local authorities. Will he therefore A comprehensive strategy goes far wider than the say a little more about how the extra funding has been remit of the Department of Health, so we are working distributed among local authorities, and the formula across Government to improve the lives and conditions that has been used? of carers. Like other constituency MPs, I regularly meet carers and take up their individual concerns in my own Phil Hope: I do not have the facts and figures about constituency. I have had the privilege of meeting lots of the hon. Gentleman’s particular local authority, but I carers this week, as part of carers week. One subject know that local authorities have had a record 45 per that has continually come up is carers benefits. The cent. increase in Government funding in real terms over Government accept that we have to look again at that the past 12 years. As a result, local authorities have issue. I remind the House, however, that we have already improved dramatically the quality of a whole range of given a lot of support. Last year, for example, we services in their areas. In addition, the carers grant that provided nearly £1.5 billion in carer’s allowance to I mentioned has been distributed to local authorities. I support carers. That, along with the carer’s premium do not have the figures on how much his local authority and other income-related benefits, forms a vital part of has received, but I assure him that it will have had some. the financial package of support for carers. I hope that he will put pressure on his local authority, For carers who work or want to work, the Department which is almost certainly controlled by members of his for Work and Pensions has increased the amount that own party, to ensure that it gives to local carers the someone can earn while still receiving carer’s allowance, priority that we expect in its assessment and delivery of from £50 a week in 2001 to £95 a week now—one of the services, and that it makes the right choices to provide highest earning limits of any benefit. Given the complexities resources to the most vulnerable and caring people in of the benefit system for pensioners, we have also taken our society. steps to simplify the claiming process for pensioners We want innovation to be at the heart of everything who are carers—they might, for example, qualify for the that we do for carers, so, as part of the carers strategy, carer’s premium in pension credits. we are setting up 24 sites to test, demonstrate and We need to do more. Even now, as I discuss pension evaluate good practice in support for carers. That action credits, allowances and benefits, I know that people will will improve outcomes for carers and provide value for worry about the complexity. Last December’s welfare money, and the sites will look at health and well-being reform White Paper reaffirmed our commitment to checks for carers, breaks for carers and how the NHS look carefully at carers benefits. We do not want to can better support them. make the benefits system even more complex; frankly, Yesterday, on the first anniversary of the carers strategy, carers’ lives are complicated enough already. That is we launched Carers Direct, which will give people from why the Department wants to make any changes to all backgrounds—young, old and those with disabilities— benefits not only in the context of the social care access to the information and advice that they need. system, but alongside its wider ambitions for welfare They will be able to support and talk to each other reform, so that the changes lead to a long-lasting and through the website. tailored system of support. For many carers, there is more to life than simply Mr. Kemp: With the best will in the world, Members fulfilling their caring responsibilities. If carers want to of Parliament will have met, and national carers week work, we want to help them do so. We want to step in, will have involved meetings with, a minuscule number not step aside. Let us give— of carers. Millions of carers out there have a sense of isolation because of the 24/7 nature of the caring that Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I they do. Any investment in technology that will link and am afraid that the Minister has used up his time allocation. bring people together, so that they can get over the He has been generous in allowing interventions, but sense of isolation, is great. Furthermore, can Members time has been added for that. of Parliament have information so that through our local press we can try to make people aware of the issues? Carers often live in isolated conditions. 12.53 pm Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): It is good to Phil Hope: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. For have this opportunity to debate the issues affecting those people—I shall not stereotype them—who find it carers across the United Kingdom. I pay tribute to all less easy to access websites, there is also a telephone those who care for relatives and friends. It is a taxing helpline. Anyone can ring that and get direct, face-to- and often thankless task, and it is right that the House face—or mouth-to-mouth—contact, so that they can should pay tribute to them. Well over 200 right hon. and discuss their needs. [Interruption.] I am not sure that I hon. Members on both sides of the House have signed got the phrasing right there; never mind, Mr. Deputy early-day motions 1519 and 1355 in support of carers Speaker—you know what I meant. week. That stands as our debt of gratitude. The helpline, as well as the website, is important. We I also pay tribute to the organisations that support need to break down people’s isolation. Carers need carers, particularly Carers UK, the Princess Royal Trust advice. We know that the system is complicated and for Carers, the countless local support groups and the 959 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 960 online carers’ chat rooms and information sources, which spending on carers—and not even that has happened. are increasingly important for mutual support—a point Obviously, the biggest step forward for carers will be made by the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington, reform in the long-term care system. The Government’s East (Mr. Kemp) a moment ago. I pay tribute also to all financial squeeze has led to rising eligibility criteria at those involved in organising carers week. That it is now the local level, and too often carers bridge the gap. So I in its 14th year is testament to its effectiveness in ask the Minister again: in carers week, of all weeks, and highlighting carers’ concerns and needs. before spring technically ends in a few days’ time on According to Carers UK, there are about 6 million 21 June, where is the Green Paper that the Government carers in the UK and more than three in five people will have categorically promised and guaranteed? become carers at some time in our lives. I was interested For 11 years, the Government have ignored a particular that the Minister said yesterday in the departmental issue. Tony Blair told the 1997 Labour party conference press release that there were only 5 million carers, as that he did not want his children to grow up in a opposed to the 6 million identified in the 2001 census. country where people had to sell their houses to fund Have the Government done a recalculation? If so, will their long-term care. Since then, we have had the Wanless the Minister put into the Library evidence of how many report from the King’s Fund, in 2006. We also had a carers there are? Perhaps he will catch your eye later, “zero-based review”, announced by the right hon. Member Mr. Deputy Speaker, to cover that point. for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Byrne) in response to Too often, carers bear the brunt of inadequate provision the Wanless report in 2006, but there is no evidence of of care and support. They are among those who are any serious work having been done on it. suffering the most because there has been prevarication The hon. Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis) said on reform, not least on the part of the Government. in the House that he thought that the comprehensive Help the Aged and others have called for carers to be spending review 2008 would deliver a solution. The supported as an integral part of the care and support CSR announced a Green Paper, to be preceded by a system. I am sure that other hon. Members will speak in consultation on the future of care and support. A more detail about the Select Committee report. It is one Green Paper is, by definition, a consultation too. That of the indicative issues of this debate that a Department Green Paper was due in early 2009, March 2009, spring of Health Minister and his shadow should be leading 2009, and June 2009. Can the Minister confirm that the the discussion on a Department for Work and Pensions timetable in the departmental plan is now—surprise, report—a report that certainly has ramifications for the surprise—summer 2009: that is, by September? Department for Communities and Local Government, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Cabinet Next week, we will be taking the Health Bill through Office, among other Departments. It is important to its Committee stage. I was pleased that Lord Darzi, note that the health and well-being of carers rightly under pressure from his peers, amended the Bill to add dominate the concerns and focus of carers and those for carers as a group who must be consulted on the NHS whom they care. constitution. I was astounded by that omission and the neglect on the part of the Government. The Bill currently The report can be condensed into two main areas. defines carers as The first is soft support for carers—inclusion in Government policy across the board, information services and so on. “persons who, as relatives or friends, care for other persons to The second is discussion of carers’ wages and benefits whom NHS services are being provided”. and the issues faced by carers who are in employment. That seems a somewhat draconian contraction by the That raises pertinent questions of the Minister about Government of the definition of a carer already inscribed where we are up to on the carers strategy. We want not a in the Health and Social Care Act 2008, which has the list of pledges, but a list of what has been done to date. broader definition of One specific issue is whether primary care trusts are “people who care for service users as relatives or friends”, actually using the money provided for emergency-only respite care for the purpose for which it was intended. with no other qualification. Why are the Government Will the Minister clarify that point, which relates to seeking to reduce the statistics on carers? what the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) said a moment ago? Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): In The Government are very good at dragging their feet support of my hon. Friend’s case, does he think that on such pledges. Yesterday, the Minister announced a part of the problem is the dissonance between what the hotline for carers in Islington. Carers had called for Government say about the importance of carers and that and welcomed it, but it was first promised in the the fact that carers’ interests tend to slip so regularly off 1999 carers strategy, on almost the same day as I first the Government’s priority agenda? entered the House following a by-election. The hotline was reannounced in the updated strategy and was supposed Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who to have been in place early this year. The House will be chairs, admirably and with great credit from both sides aware that the Government have been similarly slow in of the House, the all-party group on dementia, which setting up the national flu helpline—a key part of their has a major read-across to all the concerns of carers. He pandemic flu plan. What confidence can anyone have in is right. It is no good to lay out so many expectations a Government who take 10 years to set up a phone line? across the board, particularly for people in hard-working Last year, the Prime Minister and the previous Secretary and sensitive areas such as caring, only for them to be of State for Health trailed a carers’ wage in the press dashed when the rhetoric does not convert into action. before the publication of the strategy. Will the Minister One of the greatest challenges that we face as politicians confirm that that, in the end, was just more spin? It only is to hold the Government to account on the expectations ever referred to an extension of direct payments to that they have raised. 961 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 962

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] now been there for more than 20 years. It was opened in the 1980s, as probably one of the first of its kind to be I want briefly to touch on the subject of young carers. established, and it is highly regarded by all the carers It was, to say the least, slightly concerning that although who have been through its doors over all those years. the Health Committee discussed young carers in its My reason for speaking is to convey to the Minister report, the Government’s written response completely and Members in the House several comments that were omitted to mention them. The Minister must have made to me by carers at an event that I attended realised the Government’s embarrassment about that, yesterday as part of carers week. I invited them to put because he briefly alluded to young carers in his opening their comments in writing. They particularly feature remarks. I hope that that embarrassment will now be carers’ concerns about the inadequacy of the benefits covered by the Government making a specific regime that relates to the carer’s allowance and so on. acknowledgement that they need to address the issue of There is a strong sense that this issue is well overdue for young carers in a written document whereby they can attention. It has been the subject of plenty of reports be held to account. They may therefore need to issue an from Government, yet they are still not addressing it. addendum to their response. Ken Fish, a carer in my constituency, asked: The 2001 census found that there were approximately “Why should Carer’s Allowance be stopped when the carer 175,000 young carers in the UK, although that figure is receives old age pension at 60 for women and 65 for men, when believed to be higher by those who work in the field and carers are entitled to Carer’s Allowance for caring for more than see things for themselves. The average age of young 35 hours per week and when the same carers have paid National carers is an absolutely shocking 12 years old. One in Insurance Contributions or have had credits paid for them when three regularly misses school, and one in four has no they are continuing to care as both they and their cared for get older, frailer and less mobile?” external support whatever. That has led to tragedies such as that of Deanne Asamoah. When will the That is at the heart of many of the representations that Government take action? Following the Minister’s I am sure will be received by hon. Members on both acknowledgement that the needs of young carers must sides of the House. Margaret Burrows said: be addressed, given their absence from the Government’s “Older people that are carers need more help and support to response, we need to move from words to a good set of continue in their caring role. No age restrictions for receiving actions that can be implemented and will support young Carer’s Allowance. I feel unappreciated by society for being a carer, in particular for those carers caring for someone with carers. mental health problems.” It is right for the House to be debating issues facing Another carer I met at the coffee morning, Pat Rogerson, carers. They are, as those involved in carers week have said that she received a letter from the Department for put it, a “secret service”, so it is right that this House Work and Pensions saying that she was entitled to the should do all it can to bring them out of the shadows, carer’s allowance, but when she read on a little further and that the Government should do all they can to she found that the next paragraph said that she could support them. Conservative Members thank carers for not get the carer’s allowance because she was getting a the sacrifices that they make in order to improve the pension. She asks why a letter like that is sent, and why lives of others and their loved ones, and recognise that she is not being paid the carer’s allowance. June Baine, helping carers is one of the best ways to help those they Rhona Banford, Jill Winder and Christine Holmes also are caring for. Most importantly, we join with third want that question answered. party organisations in calling on the Government to publish the Green Paper on care and support without Although the Minister was helpful in explaining the any further delay. Only in the debate about reform can complexities of the current system, he did not go on to carers begin to hope for a system that does not let them say either of two things: that the Government honestly down. If, as seems increasingly likely, the Government do not believe that this is a financial priority and feel cannot get beyond the stasis of a divided and leaderless that it cannot be afforded at this time—that would be party, for the sake of carers and all those in our society the straightforward thing for him to say—or that there who need help, the Minister should urge the Prime is a timetable by which the level of the carer’s allowance Minister to call a general election. will be raised and its eligibility extended, so that pensioners, who often shoulder some of the greatest burdens of carers, will get proper recognition in the payments that 1.4 pm they receive. Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate, Jeremy Wright: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I know that there are hon. we cannot afford not to do something about this issue? Members in all parts of the House who are hoping to If carers decided—I am sure that very few of them catch your eye. I come to the debate to represent several would wish to do so—that they could no longer shoulder of my constituents who are carers or who work for such burdens, and the state was asked instead to do the caring organisations. work that they do unpaid, we would end up with a very In responding to my earlier intervention, the Minister much greater liability on the taxpayer. referred to the need for MPs to play a part in ensuring that the NHS spends the £150 million that has been Mr. Burstow: It is estimated that our 6 million carers allocated over the next two years wisely and well in are worth £87 billion in the burden that they shift from order properly to meet the needs of carers. I can assure our public services—both social care and the health him that in my area not only am I well in touch with service. Taking on that responsibility affects their physical carers, but carers make sure that I am in touch with and financial health in the long term. We know from the their concerns. We have a very effective carers’ centre statistics that were published during last year’s national run by the Princess Royal Trust for Carers, which has carers week that many carers find that by the time they 963 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 964 have finished their caring role, their earnings potential I was delighted to be invited by a consortium of 10 has been diminished and their savings have been run organisations to be this year’s parliamentary champion, down, and they feel let down as a consequence. and to host yesterday’s reception in the Commons. I am It is good to have a national strategy that outlines delighted that so many MPs attended that reception to many aspirations, which will be shared by everyone in hear for themselves, in an informal way, some of the this House and beyond it, but setting ambitions for issues that have an impact on carers’ lives. We should 2018 makes them seem an awfully long time away. The pay tribute to the many organisations up and down the message that I have heard from carers who are caring country that have participated in this week’s events. As I today is that they cannot wait for those ambitions to be understand it from the consortium that Carers UK realised by 2018, or for the carer’s allowance to be pulled together, more than 1,000 partner organisations raised at some point in the future. Can the Minister are celebrating the contribution that carers make to our therefore guarantee that the Government will shortly society and taking the opportunity to highlight the set out a timetable for the very necessary reform of the issues and continue the pressure on Government, and carer’s allowance? indeed on all political parties, to ensure that we do not lose momentum in improving the lives of carers. I wonder also whether the Minister could say a little more about the time scale for the roll-out of the national In my constituency the Princess Royal Trust for Carers strategy. It is not entirely clear what the milestones are held its own event yesterday, which was linked with its and how carers on the ground can satisfy themselves annual general meeting. I had hoped to attend, but about the strategy and hold people to account locally obviously yesterday’s parliamentary business made that for delivering it. At the event that I attended yesterday, impossible. I pay particular tribute to the Stirling Princess Lorraine Brown said that better services for carers of Royal Trust for Carers for the work that it does, particularly young people and for the cared-for, such as younger in supporting young carers. Many of us recognise that people with dementia, were particularly important. All all sorts of fairly young children take on responsibilities too often, dementia services for people who become way above their age level, which they should not be senile at an early age are inadequate. They are often put asked to do. I do not want us to say to children, “Of with older people suffering from dementia, in a setting course you can’t participate in the care of a parent or entirely inappropriate for them. More needs to be done sibling,” but we must ensure that those children’s needs to cater for that group, and that is certainly a concern and rights are not neglected as they absorb caring that Lorraine Brown has. responsibilities that they should not have to take on. Jackie Ure wanted to make the point yesterday that The trust in Stirling certainly does a lot of good work in carers have a sense of struggle and of navigating their that area. way through a complex system. All too often there is no Over the past 10 years, as I said, carers issues have one there to guide them, hold their hand and support come up the political agenda, and we should pay them until they turn up at the door of the carers centre tribute to this Government. In 1999, the first ever carers in Sutton, where that support is provided. That situation strategy was developed. Although it was 10 years ago, is replicated up and down the country, with people we should not lose sight of that. It was the first time waiting for an assessment, battling to get the right care that any Government had actually recognised that serious plan implemented and then ensuring that the financial needs were being neglected. As the Minister said, the assessments do not financially cripple the individual new strategy published last year built on that first concerned. All those matters make caring a burden that strategy but recognised that times had moved on, and it should not be. It is a burden that people willingly take carers’ interests and issues are perhaps better articulated on, and we should not be making it worse through the now than they were in 1999. Indeed, the pressure groups systems that we construct around people. on carers issues have built on that first recognition I have not spoken at great length today, but I wanted in 1999. to represent my constituents who willingly shoulder I met representatives of the Swale carers group this that burden for children, loved ones, husbands, wives morning, as did the Minister. I know that my hon. and others. I hope that the Minister will be able to give Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey us some reassurance about what will happen in respect (Derek Wyatt) was very keen to encourage his local of the carer’s allowance, and some sense that he understands carers group to engage not just with the Minister but that it is not good enough for him to say to MPs simply with me. One thing that came out of that discussion, that we have to hold our local PCTs to account. He has and which is embedded in the new carers strategy, was a responsibility to ensure that PCTs put their money the fact that carers need to be respected as expert care where their mouth is and deliver for carers. partners. Often they are marginalised by health professionals, not because the health professionals are 1.11 pm bad people but because they do not see the carers who Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Like other Members, are with a sick or disabled person day in and day out. I welcome this debate, particularly as it is happening Somehow when it comes to big decisions that need to be during carers week. I wish to put on record my thanks made, they feel marginalised. to the Prime Minister, who met the all-party carers One woman told me this morning that when she group a few weeks ago. As someone who this year has moved from one PCT area to another, there was a been designated the parliamentary champion for carers, different attitude to her involvement. In the first area I was delighted to join that meeting. The Prime Minister she was very much part of the team, but when she over the past two years, and his predecessor, have given moved house to another PCT area she found that she carers great support and started to put carers issues was totally excluded. Confidentiality clauses were somehow higher up the political agenda. All political parties now brought into the discussion, and she was not allowed to recognise them as an important focus for social policy. be a full participant. 965 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 966

Jeremy Wright: I am sure that the right hon. Lady some personal experience, with my sisters, of trying to was as encouraged as I was to hear the Minister talk balance care for my mother, who was dying, with our earlier about the training of those professionals and work commitments. Carers also need time to enjoy helping them understand more about the role that carers themselves and to do things that keep them connected play. I am sure that she hopes, as I do, that that training to their own social networks, as opposed to always will involve an understanding of how to respect the being part of somebody else’s network. We should not experience and understanding that carers develop about lose sight of that. the people they care for, so that what she has just I hope that the Minister accepts that the importance described happens rather less often. of the strategy was reinforced by the publication of figures this week by Carers UK. They show that 86 per Mrs. McGuire: I thoroughly agree with the hon. cent. of people in this country believe that carers make Gentleman. I recognise, however, that there is sometimes a valuable contribution to society; indeed, they are only tension between the right of carers to know things and just behind nurses and firefighters. That reflects very the individual right of a sick or disabled person not to well on the way in which that organisation has pushed allow anybody else to know their private medical business. the issue up the agenda. The figures also show that the That is difficult to manage, and the group this morning overwhelming majority of people believe that benefits recognised that those are fine distinctions. Somebody are too low, and that 74 per cent. of carers have reached said to me that we need to get rid of the grey areas, but I breaking point as a result of pressure—often the pressure say to the Minister that sometimes the grey areas actually of trying to work their way through bureaucracy.Somebody help in managing that delicate balance of rights and described that to me as like trying to swim through responsibilities between carers and the individual sick treacle. I shall not elaborate on that: it conjures up an or disabled person who is being cared for. We need to be image of what it must be like to try to tend to and careful that we do not over-structure such relationships, support someone, yet find that there is no one-stop because we could end up in a slightly worse situation. shop and no single route to getting help. I welcome the However, I agree with what the hon. Gentleman said. Minister’s comments about trying to make that route Mr. Stephen O’Brien: The hon. Lady was making an easier. interesting point, just before she answered the intervention My question for the Minister is, given that the strategy by my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth was published last year, how much progress has been (Jeremy Wright), about how both the cared-for and the made and how is it monitored? Are the milestones, carers are experts in the care required. Given that the which were carefully laid out in the strategy and worked Health Bill is about to go into Committee, and that on with carers, being reached? How will any slippage be some of the clauses that we will consider deal with addressed? direct payments—I rather hope that the hon. Lady will As the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam be asked to serve on that Committee—may I ask here (Mr. Burstow) said, the big elephant in the room is whether any of her discussions this morning helped her benefits, and the carer’s allowance. As someone who to see that the extension of direct payments is one way wrestled with the problem for three and a half years as a in which those experts in their own care can have better Minister, I say to my colleague that it will not disappear. control over the care that they receive? Did she think We should recognise the origin of carer’s allowance. about how we might consider extending those direct Lord Morris, as Minister for disabled people at the payments? time, introduced it as a £10 “thank you” to carers—that was how it was interpreted. Those were gentler, different Mrs. McGuire: In my previous role I helped pilot times. However, carer’s allowance has never recovered individual budgets, which build on the direct payments from being that “thank you” payment in terms of the experience, so I am sure the hon. Gentleman will not be amount of money that is given. It has always been the surprised to learn that I am keen that that sort of lowest benefit and, frankly, it causes great confusion, as control should be implemented. We can call it a the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam highlighted, personalisation agenda, or independence, choice and and sometimes anger. control, but I know that the Government are also keen The problem of the so-called overlapping benefit on it so that individuals can make decisions about their rules was raised again this morning, and has been raised own lives. The hon. Gentleman may not have made the with me in my constituency. point explicitly, but his intervention implies that he believes that such a step means that people will be Jeremy Wright: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady recognised as the real experts on managing their own for giving way again. She said that carer’s allowance was lives, whether they are sick or disabled people, or carers. regarded from its inception as some sort of expression I hope that we all recognise that the carers strategy of the gratitude of the nation to carers. Is not part of reflects some of the issues that have been brought to the the problem the cliff edge that emerges at retirement for attention of many of us in the past week, and in recent carers who reach retirement age and are no longer years. They include the inappropriateness of young entitled to carer’s allowance? It is now regarded as an children being the principal carers in a family. I know income replacement measure, so people who retire are from my conversations with the Minister that he is keen not allowed to continue to receive carer’s allowance, to ensure that that is tackled as soon as possible. and that causes difficulty in trying to replace it with Another element that we should never forget is that something else, which carers may not be as confident carers should have a life of their own. It is sometimes about claiming. Does she have any reflections on that easy to put people into little boxes; that ticks other little subject? boxes further down the line. However, carers need the Mrs. McGuire: Carer’s allowance is an income space and capacity to lead their own lives. That can replacement benefit, as is the state pension. We think of mean working, which involves tricky balancing. I have the state pension as being somehow different from a 967 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 968 benefit, but technically that is what it is. Both are Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am now going to call income replacement benefits, and that is where the the Liberal Democrat spokesman, but I should just difficulty arises with overlapping benefit. However, I explain that under the rules governing topical debates, hope that the hon. Gentleman gives the Government he has six minutes, plus an added minute for any credit for trying to mitigate some of the cliff-edge intervention that he chooses to take. effects of reaching state pension age. Before the Government were elected, carers fell off a benefit “cliff” when they reached state retirement age and carer’s 1.30 pm benefit stopped immediately. The Government ensured Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): Thank that a carer’s premium was incorporated in pension you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will certainly keep my credit, which means that the individual’s total income is comments within that time. not reduced. I welcome this hugely important debate, in this hugely However, that does not address the fundamental important week. I echo the comments of other hon. problem. How does one explain to parents who have Members in paying tribute to the amazing contribution looked after their disabled child from the hour the child to society that carers make up and down the country, in was born, and received carer’s allowance through most enabling loved ones to continue living their lives in a of that child’s life, that when they reach 60 their caring loving environment and with dignity, which is something responsibilities are no longer recognised? The Government that we would all warmly support. I also pay tribute to have wrestled with the problem and I hope that, as part Carers UK, which does a wonderful job as the voice for of the roll-out of our welfare programme, we can carers in ensuring that all of us and people throughout consider how to improve on the current situation. I the country are aware of carers, their needs and the role hope that we can find a way round the overlapping rule. that they play. Perhaps it means designating carer’s allowance as something other than an income replacement benefit. However, we It is interesting that this year’s carers week, under the must all recognise that that comes with a significant heading of “Carers: the UK’s secret service”, focused cost, and there is no point in politicians who do not on the health of carers. It is also interesting that we are currently have to make those decisions calling for that having a health debate about carers; I was speaking in a to happen without examining the costs of delivering it. work and pensions debate on carers only a few weeks It does not come cheap, but I hope that the Government ago. The cross-departmental responsibilities involved will continue to keep it under consideration. create challenges, and we do not always get joined-up thinking. Some of the figures from the health perspective We recognise that caring responsibilities will touch us of caring are particularly interesting. Figures from a all at some point in our lives, either as carers or as those Carers UK survey show that more than half of all receiving care. Yesterday at the reception, two carers, carers have suffered from a stress-related illness, that Janice Clark and Valerie Rossiter, gave their personal more than half have suffered from a physical illness as a testimony. Both made powerful statements about their result of caring and that 95 per cent. disguise illness lives and how they had been affected by caring because they want to continue with their caring responsibilities. Valerie’s experiences were particularly responsibilities. Those are stark figures. It is therefore moving. She explained her situation so graphically that right that we should concentrate on the health aspects it is difficult for me to interpret it for the House today. of caring, as well as on the financial implications. She has been married for 42 years, yet now her husband does not know who she is. He is in the advanced stages I would like to ask the Minister some questions about of Parkinson’s disease. She said, “This is the man I the £150 million that has been earmarked for primary loved, and now he doesn’t know who I am.” That is the care trusts to spend on respite for carers. First, can he emotional toll that caring takes on an individual. She supply us with a breakdown of how much of that was philosophical about some of the battles that she money has gone to each primary care trust? How has had to fight. She said that although her husband is the Department made PCTs aware of their responsibilities suffering, although she sometimes has to swim through and of what the money is intended for? Most importantly, the bureaucratic treacle, and although she will continue however—this is what carers want to know—how many to look after him for the rest of his life, what keeps her carers have benefited from that money? Bluntly, how going is wanting her experiences to be an example to many carers have received a break? The information ensure that other carers do not need to confront some that I have received from Carers UK suggests that of the difficulties that she has had to face. possibly not many have, which I am afraid means that the money is not getting through. I would ask the I want to pay tribute to the Government’s response Minister to consider that point carefully and give a over the years to the problems that affect carers. However, response. we all recognise that the battle has not yet been won. We still need to continue building on the solid foundation A year on from the launch of the carers strategy—an that we have created. We still need to recognise that initiative that was welcomed—the Minister has to say carers are the glue that keeps many families together, how much has changed for carers. Clearly some initiatives and by so doing keeps communities together. I hope are happening, including some that should already have that in his response the Minister will continue to pledge been happening. However, he must accept that if one his support on the issues that affect the lives of 5 million speaks to carers, as I know many hon. Members have, or 6 million carers. In some ways, the numbers do not one will hear from them that very little has changed, matter: we just know that a lot of people out there are and that is not enough. Crucially, the fundamentals taking responsibility, and that one day we too may have have not changed. The fundamentals relate to how to accept that responsibility in our own families. we regard carers in this country. The simple reality is that, through the historic development of the carer’s Several hon. Members rose— allowance, we have asked, “What benefits should we 969 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 970

[Greg Mulholland] 1.38 pm Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): This important give carers?” However, we should turn that question on debate is taking place in carers week. Indeed, I shall be its head. We should instead ask, “How as a society can attending carers day in my constituency tomorrow, as I we adequately recognise carers and what they do, and am sure many colleagues will be in theirs too. It is right recompense them for the contribution that they make to that Parliament should draw full attention to the important society?” contribution that carers make to the quality of the lives We have heard the figure of £87 billion that is saved of their family members with a chronic illness or disability. for the national health service by the contribution of Carers make an impressive collective saving of £87 billion our 6 million carers. However, I wonder what the cost to a year to the public purse. Indeed, it is doubtful whether the NHS would be of not properly supporting carers. our public services would have the capacity to intervene The figures for how many carers are suffering from for the number of people being cared for if their families illnesses as a direct result of their caring responsibilities were no longer able to cope. An estimated 6 million suggest that the cost would be huge. That is something people are caring currently, and we must not take them that we must look into. Many carers are older people for granted. It is important that we acknowledge that who care for loved ones, and we know that their numbers that huge saving to the taxpayer, which is higher than will increase simply because of demographics. the total NHS budget in 2006-07, often comes at great We have also heard about younger carers, who are cost to individual carers, in terms of limited access to covered in the report by the Select Committee on Work education and training opportunities, availability for and Pensions, of which I am a member. As has been work, which seriously limits their earning potential, and acknowledged, young people who are carers cannot do social contact outside the home. the things that other young people do, such as sport. All too often, carers experience impaired health, which Therefore, they cannot keep themselves as healthy as results from the daily demands that caring places on other young people if they are not given proper respite. them. Carers are not noted for complaining about their There is also an impact on their earning potential, their lot in life. Old and young carers alike put the needs of chances of going to university and the other things that their loved ones before themselves, and they do it cheerfully, come under the work and pensions banner. but on a very tight budget. I welcome the Minister’s However, the crux of the matter, as several hon. comments about a benefit review, which I hope will Members have said, is that we simply do not have a happen soon. system that adequately reflects the contribution made The situation for carers is quite complex, because by carers. The level of the carer’s allowance remains a they are allowed to earn only £95 a week if they wish to source of shame and embarrassment to this country. I have access to the carer’s allowance. They are also echo the calls made by the right hon. Member for limited in their ability to make themselves available for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) and my hon. Friend the Member employment, given the logistics of their daily lives. The for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow)—we need a timetable. number of hours that they can leave home every day This Government are running out of time; they have a may be limited, and they need to balance that responsibility matter of months. Surely the Minister, who I know with the needs of the person for whom they are caring. cares deeply about the issue, wants to bring forward a So we are not only talking about a financial equation; proper timetable for the reform of those benefits. there are other practical problems relating to the earning capacity of carers. Mr. Burstow: My hon. Friend is rightly pressing the I welcome the Minister’s comment about family Minister to provide a timetable for the reform of the pathfinders. That was news to me, and I was pleased to allowance, but does he agree that we also need a timetable hear it. I want to say a little about young carers. I have for the publication of the Green Paper? been surprised to find out how many young people are caring for a parent who is disabled or who has a chronic Greg Mulholland: Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend illness. The London borough of Havering, of which for that intervention, which I should like to use to ask Upminster forms a part, presents young citizens awards the Minister to indicate the extent to which carers’ every year for a range of special achievements including needs will be considered in the Green Paper, because sport, education and volunteering. Young carers are that is so crucial to the wider issue. always represented. The routines and daily lives of young carers are very We must have a timetable, but I reiterate what I said different from those of their peers. Many children need in the debate a few weeks ago. We cannot accept the to be chased in the morning to get dressed, eat their reform of benefits for carers under the umbrella of breakfast and remember their PE kit and their homework, benefit simplification. That will mean waiting too long. but these children do all that for themselves as well as Carers cannot wait for a wider review of the benefits caring for their parent. They help to wash and dress system. That work will be important, but carers need to them, then perhaps write a shopping list for the food for be considered separately and sooner, because as the family meals that they need to collect on the way home hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy Wright) from school. Lunch time for those young carers is not said, the cost implications of not doing anything are taken up by clubs or sports or playing with their friends. huge. It is an opportunity to go home and check on their It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to point mother. After school, they collect the shopping, go out the huge contribution that carers make. However, home and help to prepare the evening meal. These may I leave the Minister with this thought: can he give responsibilities, although carried out willingly and us an indication of when, before this Government leave cheerfully, can be emotionally and physically exhausting office, he will put that timetable in place? for a child. 971 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 972

Schools are as supportive as possible of pupils in People with Down’s syndrome now have a good life those circumstances, but we must find ways to ensure expectancy because of improved health care, but that those children do not fall below their educational independent living is not always possible for them, and potential. There is a direct link here to the next debate, the caring role of parents can often extend into the as young carers may self-exclude from entry into the parents’ old age. Caring parents have real worries about professions, not from a lack of ability but from a lack of their physical ability to continue to care and, worse, personal aspiration and ambition and from a sense of about the future of their children when they are gone. duty to caring. There is a challenge here for schools and How will they adapt to changed living circumstances social services to work together to prevent this from and cope with bereavement? happening, particularly in families with no history of Alzheimer’s sufferers present particular problems when further or higher education. the condition comes on late in life, as it often does. I am particularly involved with autism in my constituency, Their carers are usually their spouses, who are and the spotlight has been on autism recently. Those of themselves elderly and may not be in the best of health us who took part in the “Walk in our Shoes” day had and fitness. There is added stress when the sufferer no the opportunity to see at first hand how autism in one longer recognises the carer. Even though they might child affects the life of the entire family. The daily have spent decades living together in a loving relationship, routine is arranged around the needs of the autistic they often end their days in very different, stressful child, and I was surprised to learn of the associated circumstances. additional costs involved, including the frequent replacement Older people are probably the least likely to seek of damaged items in the home and unusually large help, particularly the very elderly people who do not quantities of laundry, for example. like to make a fuss. They do not like to bother the Parents of children on the low-performing end of the doctor as they feel they must be terribly busy looking autistic disorder spectrum have a continuing long-term after other people. This means that situations often caring role. Their children are unable to reach the usual reach crisis point before help is sought. That can result periodic milestones in development that gradually reduce in the person with Alzheimer’s being taken into professional the parental supervision and caring role. Special schools care and the very elderly spouse making daily visits but play a hugely supportive role, providing not only education not being recognised. That is a very sad situation. for their pupils but a period of respite during the day, I have in my constituency the wonderful Havering which is often the only opportunity for parents to sleep. Association of Disabilities, which is an umbrella Some children with autism are very bad sleepers; I have organisation for carers and people with a wide range of heard parents say that their child can go without sleep disabilities, run by the inspirational Mary Capon. It for a week. If there are other children in such a family, provides an effective support network, including a the mother often stays awake all night trying to keep befriending service that is invaluable for disabled people the autistic child quiet and occupied so that the rest of living on their own. The befrienders form a real relationship the family are not disturbed. The children might have to with people. They visit them at home and also take go to school in the morning; the father might have to go them out, which often provides the only opportunity to work. that those people have to leave the house. The organisation also provides a good range of social I pay tribute to the three superb special schools in my activities, and opportunities for training in information constituency—Dycorts, Ravensbourne and Corbets Tey— technology and in preparing a CV, in preparation for for the quality of the education that they provide and seeking employment. Without even asking Mary Capon, for the endless patience and respect that they show to I say to the Minister that I know that she would love their pupils in teasing out every last ounce of potential the Havering Association of Disabilities to be involved for development. The end of statutory education is with the family pathfinders project, whatever form it often dreaded by parents, as the days are long and takes. difficult to fill. The wonderful ROSE—realistic opportunities for supported employment—project at I know that all hon. Members are very much aware of Havering college of further and higher education is a the huge contribution made by carers in enabling their boon to students with learning difficulties and their loved ones to remain in their own homes in familiar parent carers. The supported employment project started surroundings, and in reducing the size of the health in a very modest way, with a small number of job tutors and social services budgets by putting their owns needs and students, but it has grown more than anyone dared in second place. But we always need to ensure that to hope. It has gone from strength to strength. carers’ continuing efforts are appreciated. We all know individual carers and discuss their circumstances with Instead of a life of boredom at home on benefits, the them regularly, but the acknowledgement and appreciation young people with learning difficulties—many of them need to range wider, so that no carer feels isolated or are young people with autism—are able to have paid overlooked, and so that all possible practical and financial employment with support that is gradually withdrawn help is made available to improve the quality of carers’ until they are able to travel and spend their working day lives. independently. They have proved themselves to be reliable, cheerful and anxious to please their employers. Moreover, 1.49 pm their parents benefit from the daily respite. When the Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): It is a ROSE project started, its organisers went out to local great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for employers in my constituency to try to persuade them Upminster (Angela Watkinson) and I substantially agree to provide placements for students with learning difficulties. with many of her points. Indeed, I agree with a great Over time, the students have been so successful that the deal of what all contributors to the debate have said— employers approach the project to ask whether it has including the Minister, who opened it and whom I am students available. delighted to see still in his place. He knows better than 973 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 974

[Jeremy Wright] help those who are not professionals but who are still making a substantial contribution to the care of people most that this policy area requires consistency of approach, we are most concerned to look after. which is difficult to achieve when we have a different It seems to me that this is more than a matter of Minister every few months. It is a pleasure to see him gratitude or just saying thank you to carers—however still in his post. much we rightly do so in the debate—because we need I shall make just a few points in order to allow the to offer them real and practical support. As the Minister Minister time to respond to the debate. My first is about rightly said, we must try to ensure that carers have the the number of carers, although I am in agreement with maximum opportunity to combine their caring my hon. Friend that, in a sense, it does not much matter responsibilities not only with a fulfilling social life but, whether there are 5 million or 6 million. My point is just as importantly, with a fulfilling career. That should that the argument should be, at least in part, about how enable them to get back into work, succeed on their own many of those who are carers identify themselves as terms and still maintain their caring responsibilities. such. Many do not: they see themselves as doing right Once again, it is important for carers to identify themselves by their families, looking after family members in the to receive the recognition they deserve; in circumstances way that they believe it is incumbent on them to of better and greater recognition, it should be easier for do—without wishing, as she said, to make a fuss or to them to go to their employers and ask for the flexible draw attention to what they do, and without seeking working they need. It should be easier for that to recognition or reward for it. happen if employers automatically understand what Carers are often very modest people, with every reason carers do and how important it is for them to continue not to be so. The recognition that we rightly give to with it. them—and it should not be just annually in debates like It is also important to ensure that health and social this; I agree with those who say that we should recognise services professionals—the people mentioned by the them more frequently, more regularly and more hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow)—can consistently—comes not because they ask for it, but recognise the importance of a carer’s responsibilities because they richly deserve it. We need to persuade and a carer’s understanding of the individual for whom those carers to identify themselves as such before we care is being provided. Too many carers—we all talk to can offer them the sort of assistance the Minister set them—are frustrated because they are treated as people out and to which others have referred. The offers of who do not understand what is going on, when in fact help and support, the information exercises and so forth the opposite is the case and the carer is the one who are linked with the opportunity that we should take to spends the most time with the person for whom care is recognise carers and encourage those who do not yet being provided. He or she knows that person best, and recognise themselves as such to do so in order to access their opinion of that person—what they need and what all those streams of support. they will best respond to—should be fully taken into account. Angela Watkinson: I agree that carers do not often fit I take the point made by the right hon. Member for readily into a definable box. The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) that it is important to reconcile Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) may recall that I visited her in that viewpoint with the occasional desire of the person her previous ministerial role. I came to see her with a being cared for to take a different view to that of their young lady from my constituency who was trying to carer on any subject. In the majority of cases, however, balance work and benefits with her mother, who did not what the person cared for will want is for their carer’s regard herself as a carer because the daughter was view to be taken fully into account. Rarely is it in fact ostensibly living independently. However, the mother taken into account as fully as we would wish by the spent most of her life dashing back and forth from her professionals involved in their care. own home to her daughter’s home to give her the I wish to refer to two specific groups. The first was support that she could not manage without. mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster and, indeed, by the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West Jeremy Wright: I entirely agree, and I think that the (Greg Mulholland), who both rightly highlighted the lady my hon. Friend describes is one of those whom we interests of young carers. It is right to pay particular should try harder to reach and offer the sort of support attention to their needs, but equally we should not that we all want carers to receive. forget those at the other end of the age range. Older carers have particular needs and particular requirements. Mr. Burstow: According to the last census, there were They are the ones whose health suffers disproportionately about 19,000 carers in my constituency, but we have as a result of their caring responsibilities. We know that identified only about 4,000 or 5,000 in the borough. something like a quarter of the 5 million or 6 million Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one group of carers are of retirement age. That is a very significant professionals most likely to come across carers—either number of people, and I believe that there are about because of a carer’s ill health or the ill health of the 8,000 carers over the age of 90! How those people person for whom they are caring—is general practitioners? manage, I simply do not know, but we must be aware of GPs need to get training in order better to identify their particular needs and requirements when we consider carers and then act as the facilitators in passing the how best to help carers. information on to others. The second group is, as my hon. Friend said, an overlapping group—those who care for people who Jeremy Wright: I entirely agree; the hon. Gentleman have dementia. The Minister would be disappointed if I is absolutely right. That is why, as I said, I was encouraged failed to mention dementia at some point in my remarks. by what the Minister told us about opportunities to It is important to recognise the particular requirements train those who are professionals to understand how to on those who care not just for people with dementia but 975 Carers11 JUNE 2009 Carers 976 for all who have a mental illness or disability as opposed opportunity to engage in debates throughout the country. to a physical one. I am not saying for a moment that it is I thank all the organisations that work to support and easier to care for someone with a physical disability, but represent carers, not just national organisations, but the it is different, and there are different requirements on organisations in Members’ constituencies of which we carers looking after someone with a mental difficulty. have heard today, which do such fantastic work all over As my hon. Friend pointed out, one of the main the country. differences is that the carer starts to lose something of The hon. Member for Upminster (Angela Watkinson) the person they knew as the illness or condition progresses. reminded us of the role played not just by carers but by More often than not, the person being cared for requires volunteers and befrienders. The fact that 20 million more and more from the carer, just as the carer is losing people offer their services voluntarily to the community more and more of the one for whom they are caring. is, along with the number of carers, a sign that we have a That is an extremely distressing situation to be in for strong society with its values in the right place. anyone with a caring responsibility. We need to take Let me try to clarify the question of numbers. I account not just of the physical health needs, but of the understand that the 5 million figure given yesterday mental health needs of those who are carers, and ensure relates to the number of carers in England, while the that the risks they run—in exposure to depression and 6 million figure given by Carers UK relates to the whole other conditions—are adequately catered for. United Kingdom. However, as we were told by the hon. I have a couple of final points about the specific and Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), the practical action that we can take. The first, which the figures may be even higher, because not all carers identify Minister mentioned, is respite care. It is right to provide themselves as such. for the availability of such care. No one can do a caring Hon. Members pointed out that GPs provide an job 24 hours a day, seven days a week—they simply important gateway to the necessary resources, and drew could not cope; people need a break sometimes. A attention to the need for support for both young and break will help them to do a better job for the rest of the older carers. They also mentioned dementia. The hon. time; that is well understood by everyone. It is also Member for Rugby and Kenilworth, who chairs the worth acknowledging that simple provision of respite all-party group on dementia, spoke of the importance care will not do the job, because we also need to provide of responding to the individual needs of different people for quality respite care. If we do not, it will not be a real in different ways and tailoring support. Caring can break at all. We have all spoken to carers who tell us, “I sometimes be very distressing and demanding. put the person I care for into full-time care. I had a Let me say a few things that I did not have an week’s holiday, but it was the worst week in my life, opportunity to say in my opening speech. Hon. Members because I spent the entire time worrying about whether referred to carers who want both to care and to go on my loved one was being properly looked after.” That is working. We want to help them to do that. Jobcentre not respite care. We need to ensure that the respite care Plus is recruiting specialist care partnership managers, we provide is of sufficient quality to provide that who will be responsible for improving information on reassurance, and that information about its quality is carers support for both staff and customers. We want to provided to carers so that they enjoy the break that we try to remove some of the barriers faced by carers who can offer them. wish to return to paid employment. We want to stand My last point is about simplicity. When it comes to up and represent their employment interests in a variety the benefit system, we will all have difficult decisions to of partnerships. The aim of Employers for Carers, an make about how much can be afforded, but it is beyond organisation launched earlier this year, is to identify question that when people look at a website or call a and promote the business benefits of supporting carers phone line to understand what is available, the information at work. Many employed people also have caring given must be easily digestible. Whether the advice is responsibilities, and Employers for Carers offers practical there or not, the actual provision of benefits needs to be support for the development and benchmarking of good simpler. That is why we have to talk about the cliff edge practice. or the distinction between retirement and non-retirement I do not have time to respond to all the points that so that there is some continuity and simplicity in the have been raised, but I will say to the hon. Member for benefits that those who provide care can receive. Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien), who listed a number of demands We shall never be able to make the lives of those who and complaints, that I did not hear from him a single care easy—that is beyond all of us—but we do have a commitment or pledge of support for any particular responsibility to make those lives slightly less difficult, policy. I feel that he struck a discordant note in choosing and I think that both this and the next Government to create a party-political divide by calling for an election. should focus their attention on that. That was silly. He made a sad, slightly whingeing and unhelpful contribution to an important debate which 2pm should have united the House. Similarly, the hon. Member Phil Hope: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) asked questions Speaker, I shall respond to the debate. but offered no information about the Liberal Democrats’ I thank all hon. Members for their valuable contributions. proposals— I particularly thank my right hon. Friend the Member One and a half hours having elapsed since the for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) and the hon. Member for commencement of proceedings, the motion lapsed (Standing Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy Wright) for their clear Order No. 24A). and moving speeches. I am pleased that carers week Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry that the gave us the opportunity to engage in this debate, and Minister has had to suffer a double whammy, but we also to give other hon. Members and organisations an must now proceed to the next debate. 977 11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 978

Social Mobility and the Professions and senior jobs. Of course no one wants people who [Relevant document: The uncorrected transcript of oral cannot do the job; what we want are the best people in evidence taken before the Children, Schools and Families the job, regardless of their background. All too often, Committee on 8 June 2009, on Social Mobility, HC 624-i.] barriers exist to prevent that. We are committed to continuing the progress that has already been made, 2.4 pm and destroying every obstacle in order to ensure fair access to the professions for all. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith): I beg to move, I think it fair to say that we have made progress That this House has considered the matter of social mobility towards achieving our objectives, but to ensure fair and fair access to the professions. access we need to help individuals at different stages of I am pleased that my first Cabinet Office debate their lives. Children need support from their early years concerns such an important issue—one of the most if they are to secure the best start in life and develop important that must be dealt with by society as a whole, their abilities. Youngpeople, whatever their backgrounds and a subject on which I feel particularly strongly. and aspirations, need support as they make the transition from school to further education, training and higher I want to say something about the work of the panel education. Adults also need help to develop and adapt on fair access to the professions. I pay tribute to the their skills in an increasingly changing labour market. panel and its chair, my right hon. Friend the Member The provision of excellent, personalised public services for Darlington (Mr. Milburn). Access to the professions can provide the right balance of support and incentives, and social mobility are important to society and to hon. and we are continuing to build on what we have already Members in all parts of the House. Today’s debate will achieved in that regard. be enhanced by the wealth of expertise represented on the panel, which, as a cross-party, independent body, We do not consider it right to cut the investment that has scrutinised both Government and society as a whole. is necessary to build secure foundations for tomorrow, Having read its reports, I thank the panel for the depth especially during a recession. I know that some believe of the work that it has undertaken, and look forward to that a recession is the best time at which to cut back, but seeing the conclusions and recommendations that it will it really is not. We must invest during a recession in make to the Prime Minister. order to take advantage of the upturn. The Government believe that every member of society Even the youngest people need support if the professions should have the opportunity to get on with life. That are to benefit from that wider pool of talent in the ethos is at the heart of what government is about. We future, and we have more than doubled the number of are committed to ensuring that everyone can achieve child care places to 1.5 million in just over 10 years. All their potential, not just now but in the decades to three-year-olds and four-year-olds are now entitled to come—not just for their own benefit, important though free part-time early education places if that is what their that is, but for the benefit of society and the economy. parents want, and we have introduced more than 3,000 We need to be able to draw on the widest possible pool Sure Start children’s centres. We have brought families of talent, and ensure that the best people enter the out of poverty through tax credits, the national minimum professions. wage and child trust funds, which is making a real The panel’s reports identify the importance of the difference to their lives. I am sure that all Members of professions to the economic and social success of the Parliament have been told about that in their constituencies. country, and reflect on the number of new people who In the Budget, the Chancellor also announced that are required in an evolving global economy—an economy the child element of the tax credit would increase by an which will become very different in the future. They also additional £20 a year above indexation from April 2010. draw attention to the need for fairer access in particular In schools we have doubled funding per pupil in real spheres. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member terms, which has raised overall performance. We owe a for Darlington will say more about that, but what is tribute to teachers and classroom assistants, who have crucial is the ability to choose from the widest possible played a massive part in changing education and improving pool of talent in order to increase economic efficiency the quality of education that young people receive in and production. That will not only help individuals to our schools. It is no coincidence that total funding per succeed, but contribute to social cohesion and inclusion. pupil in the past 12 years has almost doubled to £2,880. Social mobility has a direct impact on our economic In the pre-Budget report we announced £14.5 billion of future. additional spending on education for 2010-11. That It may seem difficult to imagine this now, but the investment has made a difference. There are now fewer world’s economy is set to double in the next decade as schools in special measures—the number has nearly India and China renew their economic growth. One halved in just over 10 years—and those that are in billion skilled jobs are being created, and here in the special measures get out of them much more quickly United Kingdom we shall need to find an extra 6.8 million because of the support that is there for them. The or so new entrants to the professions. We need to be investment in education means that there are 41,000 ready to capture those jobs in the future, and ensure more teachers, 210,000 more support staff and over that everyone can enjoy new opportunities as they arrive. 120,000 more teaching assistants than 12 years ago. That must be a priority for the Government. The investment also means that now more than 64 per Access to the professions and to senior jobs must cent. of pupils attain at least five GCSEs from A* to C, clearly be based on talent and the ability to do the job. including English and Maths. That has gone up from Geography, finance and family background cannot be 45 per cent.—less than half—12 years ago. The investment the deciding factors. Although that ambition is not in staff, equipment, buildings and child care has delivered contentious, many communities, and even graduates of real improvements in education. To help those who are many universities, are denied access to many professional perhaps most at risk from not fulfilling their potential 979 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 980 in school, we have introduced the educational maintenance reducing the headline interest rates, allowing people to allowance. Half a million young people have been helped apply for loans of up to £10,000 to study at colleges, every year with £10, £20 or £30 a week. universities and with private training providers—an In the 2009 Budget, the Chancellor also announced a increase on the current limit of £8,000. guaranteed job, training or work placement for all 18 to John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con): I am listening 24-year-olds who reach 12 months’ unemployment. We with respect to the Minister. The Minister for Higher have also prioritised giving second chances to those Education and Intellectual Property, the right hon. adults who did not achieve their potential in education Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), will know that a the first time around. Since 2001, over 2.5 million particular hobby horse of mine is clause 84 of the people have improved their basic skills and we have now Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill, put in place a legal right for adults to get free training which concerns election for apprenticeship schemes. up to level 2—GCSE, A-level or equivalent—to help Will the Minister take on board the concern that if increase their employability.We have revived apprenticeships there is a prescriptive requirement that somebody should as a viable and mainstream option for young people. have level 2 or level 3 qualifications, that can discriminate This year there will be an extra 35,000 apprenticeships against young people with special educational needs— and we have seen a huge increase in the number of perhaps on the autistic spectrum—who do not have young people completing their apprenticeships. such qualifications but who in every other way would be One problem is that all too often in the professions extremely well suited to the pursuit of an apprenticeship there are barriers preventing those in junior roles from scheme? progressing to professional and better paid jobs. There Angela E. Smith: I entirely agree; the hon. Gentleman was a time when older journalists could say that they will know that the matter was raised several times in had gone from making the tea on their local paper to Committee. The Government are looking at it, because becoming a senior journalist on a national newspaper. we do not want people with special educational needs to We do not see that so often these days. Another route is be excluded from apprenticeships. I assure him that my an unpaid internship through family connections in right hon. Friend the Minister has taken his comments London, which is becoming an increasingly normal way on board. That point also relates to the charity v, which to enter national journalism. It can still be difficult for is looking at full-time volunteering opportunities for talented, able and ambitious apprentices to work their young people who are not in education or employment. way up to the highest levels. We have listened to the We want that to be extended as far as possible from views on this and, following consultation, the UCAS April this year. points system will be applied to apprenticeships. Having read the two reports from the panel, I am I wish to draw the House’s attention to the “New eager to see the recommendations to be given to the Opportunities” White Paper, which sets out ambitious Prime Minister. We believe that everyone with ability plans for everyone in Britain to make the most of their from across society should have an opportunity to get potential, to increase aspiration and, having done so, to the most senior jobs in society.That is why the Government turn that into success. The commitments in the White invited my right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington Paper will have a direct impact on the issues under (Mr. Milburn), senior professionals and experts to establish discussion today. We are on track to provide access to the panel on fair access to the professions, which is high-quality early learning and child care for two-year-olds entirely independent of Government. by September. The panel’s remit was to look at barriers to fair access Already 145 schools are taking part in the scheme to and senior jobs and at what more could be done by the get the most effective teachers into the most challenging professions with support from the Government to improve schools. Often, one of the problems for the most challenging fair access for all. Fair access to the professions is schools is a high turnover of teachers. Effective teachers crucial for individuals. It is important for their communities are joining such schools from September, and they will and for society, but it is also crucial to the economy as a get a new £10,000 incentive if they guarantee to stay in whole. We must have the widest possible pool of talent the school for three years, thus ensuring continuity of from which to choose, as that increases economic teaching for their pupils. These new skills and that efficiency and productivity. It is not just individuals continuity will help to continue the improvements that who succeed if we give everyone a fair chance; it can we are seeing in the most challenging schools, often in also contribute to social cohesion and social inclusion. the most challenging communities. Social mobility has a direct impact on our economic The National Apprenticeship Service was launched future. in April with the aim of creating 35,000 new apprenticeship The panel is developing its recommendations, which places across the public and private sectors. That is a will be published over the summer, although it challenge. We have a Cabinet-level steering group and has shown so far that many of the top professions the continued development of delivery plans is in the are not representative of society. There is a much early stages, but good progress is being made and I urge higher representation of independent school-educated as many private and public organisations as possible to professionals, especially doctors and lawyers, who come take on apprentices to make this a success. from well-off families. We are trebling the number of career development Mr. David Willetts (Havant) (Con): The Minister loans available for people who want to undertake training. referred to the report being published in the summer. It will help to develop their skills and to realise their full That has been the official position for some time. Can potential. Over the next two years, 45,000 new and she give any more detail as to when we might expect it? rebranded professional and career development loans Will there be a statement to the Commons? will be made available, up from the 15,000 available in Angela E. Smith: That is a matter for my right hon. this financial year. They will be made more attractive by Friend the Member for Darlington. It is not my report 981 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 982

[Angela E. Smith] some professions, but, perversely, it has had the opposite effect in others. That is why the panel has been asked to or my panel. I wish I could assist the hon. Gentleman. make independent recommendations on all these issues; It would not be for the Government to tell my right we want fair access to the professions. hon. Friend what to do and when to present his report. The panel’s initial report highlights the aspirations of young people as a significant barrier. Only one in five Mr. Alan Milburn (Darlington) (Lab): I am grateful young people from average backgrounds and only one not to be told what to do by my hon. Friend. If it helps in eight from poorer backgrounds currently aspire to be the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) and the a professional—in this context, that term covers a wide House, I can say that the intention is to publish our range of professions. However, the proportion for young report in mid-July. It is for the Government to decide people whose parents are already in one of the professions whether they want the House to consider it. As it is an is two in five. I do not believe that where we live, how independent report from a ferociously independent panel, much our parents earn and what our parents do have representing all parties and none, I cannot speak on any impact at all on ability, but they clearly impact on behalf of the Government on that issue. But we will young people’s aspirations. publish in mid-July; I hope before the House rises. Another important issue is career support for young Angela E. Smith: I am grateful to my right hon. people. The panel’s research shows that soft skills are Friend. I think that “summer” was a fair representation, becoming increasingly valued by employers, but not all although we are not always sure that July is summer. young people have the opportunity to develop them. Some professions have perversely become less, not more, Another barrier is to do with internships and work socially representative over time, especially accountancy experience. They have become an important route into and journalism. The panel has so far identified five the top jobs. More than nine in 10 young people have underlying barriers to improving access to the professions been interns. That helps to raise their aspirations and and the House would be pleased to hear the views of improve their CVs, and four out of five employers Members on these issues. recruit former interns. A disproportionate number of internships are in London and the south-east, and the evidence shows that more internships are sourced through Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) families and friends than through advertised schemes. (Con): I appreciate that the hon. Lady has just started Therefore, where a young person lives and what university that section of her speech, but will she give at least some they attend can also be a barrier to their moving into credit to the professions—particularly the Law Society the professions. and the Bar Council I might add, as I was formerly a lawyer—for the efforts that they have made to increase Another issue is recruitment and selection. Seven out social mobility and ensure that there is, as far as possible, of 10 of the top graduate employers target just 20 of broader access to them? It should not be felt that the 167 universities. Therefore, as I have said before, what professions are unaware that these issues are at stake; university someone attends can have an impact on their indeed, they have made some significant steps in recent progression. years. They might have more to do, but they are very There is also an issue to do with flexible routes of much on board. entry to the professions. There has been a long-term decline in the non-graduate routes. Today, only 27 of Angela E. Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid The Times top 100 employers accept alternative entry point. Many professions recognise that if they are to routes such as non-graduate entry. There are good attract the brightest, best and most able, they will need examples of professions opening their doors to people to have a much fairer system of progression. The hon. entering from different routes, such as the fast-track Gentleman mentioned the Bar Council, and there is teaching qualification, which can be undertaken in just Julia Neuberger’s report on that issue. Many professions six months. There is clearly more to do, however. have taken good steps forward, but they acknowledge It will take a few years before we have a clearer that they have more to do in facing the challenge ahead picture of access to professions for all those who have of us. Progress has been made, but I would not imagine come through the education system in the past decade, that any Member thinks that we have gone as far as we but to date the panel’s evidence shows a narrowing should. I acknowledge the progress that has been made, attainment gap between kids from poorer families and but we want there to be more, and we await the panel’s those from better off families. We believe that that will recommendations on the best ways to achieve that. lead to increased social mobility in the years ahead. Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) The issue of aspiration is at the heart of this debate. (Con): I want to ask the hon. Lady a question, and to We need to ensure that young people aim higher and do so without prejudice. To what extent has graduate fulfil their aspirations. Fair access to the professions is entry changed the opportunities for people to rise through not just good for those individuals who succeed; it is professions? It was once entirely possible for someone good for their communities and for society. It is also no to start as a tea boy in a professional organisation and exaggeration to say that it is essential for the economic to rise to close to the top of it. I know of cases when and social future of this country. precisely that occurred in both journalism and accountancy. Any successful economic strategy that can take advantage of the global economy of the future must be built on Angela E. Smith: The panel will be looking at, and the foundation of a highly skilled work force. We are making recommendations on, precisely those issues. currently in very difficult economic times, but this is not The extent of such opportunities varies from profession the time to cut back. We need to invest, as it is crucial to profession. Graduate entry has opened up access in that we are ready for the economic upturn when it 983 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 984 comes and as it happens. It is estimated that the global 2.30 pm economy will need 1 billion extra skilled jobs in the next 20 years, and the figure for the United Kingdom is Mr. David Willetts (Havant) (Con): I welcome both probably about 6.8 million to 7 million. the Minister to her new responsibilities, which include this important subject of social mobility, and this debate. To reap the benefits, we will need action and investment I do not know whether she planned to have a debate on at every stage of a child’s life. I know that the hon. this subject within two days of becoming the Minister Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) does not entirely responsible for it, but it is welcome that she is at the accept that and has concerns about early-years investment Dispatch Box to speak on it. The right hon. Member for and Sure Start. The evidence shows, however, that we Darlington (Mr. Milburn) is also in the Chamber, and have to invest in those early years; otherwise, we will not he is leading the independent review. The work that has reap the benefits as those children pass through the been produced, both originally by the Cabinet Office’s education system. strategy unit—that was on social mobility as a whole—and The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire more recently by the Panel on Fair Access to the Professions, (Mr. Lansley) may have let the cat out of the bag this is excellent. The amount of empirical evidence assembled week when he talked about proposals for 10 per cent. in those reports is fantastic, and I am sure that the right funding cuts across the board—apart from in one or hon. Gentleman is the right man to push forward this two areas. If the Opposition’s proposals are to cut agenda. We read in the papers that he got his party’s post-16 Train to Gain, that will reduce social mobility, Chief Whip to apologise for having suggested that he increase social inequalities and fail this country’s economy. was a rebel plotting the downfall of the Prime Minister The progress being made by the Government will lead last week; we note that nobody else has had such a to everyone being able to fulfil their potential. If one statement from the Chief Whip. It is good to see the person does not fulfil their potential and aspirations, or right hon. Gentleman in the Chamber to debate this fails to have them in the first place, that is a waste for important subject. them as an individual, for the community, for society as Our starting point is the statistics that have led to an a whole, and, crucially, for the economy and future of extraordinarily lively academic debate about the decline this country.We are committed to stopping the squandering in social mobility between children born in 1958 and of those skills, and to ensuring that the brightest and those born in 1970. Although the evidence since 1970 is the best from every background, family income level debated, it seems clear to me that, despite one or two and part of the country will have the chance to fulfil claims to the contrary, social mobility has been flatlining their potential. since 1970. The summary of the November 2008 document got it about right when it stated: Mr. Mark Field: Does the hon. Lady not feel that the “Broadly, social mobility is no greater or less since 1970”. emphasis—or, it might be argued, over-emphasis—on aspirations and access to the professions can often Something I welcomed in the Minister’s statement obscure a real concern? She is right that there will be a was that she did not try to argue that social mobility need for 1 billion more skilled people in the global was improving again; it might be, but we do not have economy in the decades ahead. The real issue, therefore, the evidence for that. One of the leading experts, Paul is that there needs to be more investment in further Gregg, who did work on children who were born in education and lifelong learning, not simply in access to 1990 and took their GCSEs 15 years later, said that the professions, which will always be elitist in the respect there was not enough evidence to claim with any confidence that only about 15 or 20 per cent. of people will be able that there had been an improvement. Although we hope to aspire to join them. We should focus on the jobs that things are getting better, we do not have the evidence to will be required in future through better further education say that at the moment. and a commitment to lifelong learning. The panel’s reports are fascinating. The Minister rather dangerously strayed into the territory of access Angela E. Smith: I am puzzled by the hon. Gentleman’s to different professions. As I do not believe that there point, although I accept that he means it well, in are any journalists sitting up there in the Press Gallery, that the two things seem complementary. The let us be clear about what the figures show. The table on argument we are putting forward today—this is why we page 2, which shows the backgrounds of professionals are so keen to see the panel’s recommendations—is that born in 1958 compared with those of professionals through every life cycle of someone’s education and born in 1970—again, those two longitudinal studies are skills training, the support and training needs to be in used—is about the most fascinating one in the report. place. Having support and fairer access to professions is The table measures how much more affluent their families crucial, but part and parcel of that is improving access were in comparison with the average family income. to further and higher education. The two are In some professions—teaching, for example—there complementary; they are not exclusive or separate in has been, if anything, a tiny improvement. For those any way. joining other professions, the family backgrounds of In conclusion, I pay tribute again to the work undertaken those born in 1970 were much more relatively affluent by my right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington than the backgrounds of those born in 1958. The biggest and his panel. He has taken on a huge task, because this single change was found to have taken place in journalism: issue affects the future not only of individuals but of journalists born in 1958 were seen to have come from the whole economy of this country. He will want to take backgrounds where the family income was roughly the on board the views of this House, and we are eager to same as the average, whereas for those born in 1970 a see his recommendations, so that they can be taken on massive gap had opened up. I am looking forward to board in order to make the difference that society and the Minister coming to the Chamber when we have the this country needs. panel’s report in mid-July and telling us what she is 985 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 986

[Mr. David Willetts] that what the Minister says is correct and the evidence on the blighting of life chances by periods of unemployment going to do about access to journalism. As she takes on does not apply to graduates. We will have to wait the journalists’ profession, we will be watching and see. sympathetically from a distance. Youngpeople will be the worst victims of the recession, I was also struck by the material on page 45, which because they will find it hard to get jobs when they leave again shows the rise of requirements for graduate entry— university, and youth unemployment is rising. But even another powerful piece of evidence from this very useful during the boom years in the first part of this decade, report. We look forward to the final report that the and while in other advanced economies youth Minister will receive from the right hon. Member for unemployment was falling and the proportion of young Darlington. people who were NEET was falling, Britain was already We have done some research of our own on social heading in the wrong direction. For example, among mobility, including an analysis of evidence from the 16 to 24-year-olds unemployment rose in the UK between Office for National Statistics about the backgrounds of 1997 and 2007 from 13.4 per cent. to 14.4 per cent., people who go to university. We did a micro-analysis, while across the OECD it fell from 15.7 per cent. to based on the neighbourhoods that those people came 13.4 per cent. Our NEET rate for the same age group from, and we concluded that the figures convey a stark rose from 11.6 per cent. in 2000 to 13 per cent. in 2005, message. Despite hundreds of millions of pounds being at the same time as the OECD average was falling. I spent on widening participation, the figures still show make that point because that tells me that some features that in the richest, most affluent areas of the country six of Government policy meant that the problems were in 10 young people go to university, but in the poorest, getting worse even when the overall economy was most deprived neighbourhoods three in 10 go to university. improving. There are some lessons that Ministers need So there are still enormous gaps in the opportunities for to draw from that. young people to go to university, and it is hard to I can see the Minister for Higher Education and improve social mobility with that bottleneck in the Intellectual Property itching to intervene, but I will give access to university. way to him when I have completed my point. My belief is that the way in which he is funding FE colleges, We are also concerned about the prospects for the through the Learning and Skills Council, to churn out poorest young people. They have an increased risk of paper qualifications makes it harder for people who being not in education, employment or training—NEET. were already detached from education to go through We are, sadly, in tough economic times with high the doors of the FE colleges. The colleges wanted unemployment, and it is worth remembering the evidence people who would get a national vocational qualification that a period of unemployment, especially when very fast, and increasing numbers were therefore excluded young, can scar someone for life. People’s lifetime earning from education and training by the performance prospects are affected, and it seems to affect the kind of indicators and funding systems that Ministers were jobs they have 20 years later. applying. I would be interested to hear why the Minister disagrees. Mr. Mark Field: It is also perhaps worth stressing that that applies not only to young people leaving Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman knows, because we school, but to those leaving university.Those who graduated have had this debate before, that all of us, across the during the recessions of the 1980s and 1990s have found House, recognise that there are young people who are their opportunities severely limited. Sadly, the same not in education, employment or training. I certainly may apply to last year’s graduates and this year’s see that in my constituency. That is why we want to take graduates—although we hope not for too much further the age to which young people remain in training up to forward than that. A recession is a very limiting experience, 18. Notwithstanding that, however, he knows—we have whenever one leaves full-time education. had this ding-dong in many television studios—that his figures include young people on gap years. They also Mr. Willetts: My hon. Friend is right, and that is why include young people who are independently wealthy—there we propose, as a temporary measure, that extra postgraduate have been more of them, clearly, over the past 10 years—and taught masterships should be made available for people young people who have had children, who have other leaving university this year who are finding it difficult to commitments or who have particular disabilities. It is get a job. important to reflect on those figures and to dissociate them from the young people about whom he is particularly The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual concerned. Property (Mr. David Lammy): The Government are Mr. Willetts: There are, of course, a range of reasons committed to growth in postgraduate education along why young people are NEET, but I was quoting OECD the lines that the hon. Gentleman suggests. I am sure figures that are comparable. They are on the same basis that he will agree that although graduates face a tough for Britain in 2005 as they are for Britain in 2000. They autumn, in the medium to long term those in the allow comparison between Britain and other advanced employment market arrive in the end where they intended western countries. Whatever we think about the composition to be. of that group, I am making two points about the trend. First, the trend in the UK was in the wrong direction. Mr. Willetts: Well, we hope so. We will have an Secondly, the trend was in the wrong direction in the unusual development this summer, which will see the UK when the trend in the rest of the OECD, which was toughest recruitment round for graduates since the big going through the same overall economic situation, was expansion of universities. We have had a steadily improving in the right direction. The Minister’s ingenuity does not labour market overall for the past 15 years, and I hope explain what was going on. 987 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 988

Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman will recognise that I want to return to working through my list. The first Britain had 10 successive years of growth. That situation item about which I think that the Minister and I agree is was not replicated in other European countries; indeed, the importance of careers advice. I want to refer to the it was not replicated in Japan or the US, either. The Nuffield-Rathbone study—another version of that research inclusion in the figures of those who are independently was published this week—but my interpretation is slightly wealthy as NEET makes my point. different from the Minister’s. It is easy to say that there is a problem of aspiration, and the report does contain Mr. Willetts: I am afraid that I do not follow the some evidence in that regard, but the Nuffield-Rathbone Minister’s point. researchers present a somewhat different argument. Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Interviews were conducted with young people who did not follow the Minister’s point, either, but I probably were NEETs or otherwise disengaged from education misunderstood because I am sitting directly behind and so unlikely to go to university. The study said: him. I am not making a cheap political point—I understand “At the workshops with young people, all of the participants why the hon. Gentleman is going on about NEETs—but expressed some form of aspiration, many of which were highly will he look at the new book launched on Wednesday by specific...they were able to express clear and precise aspirations.” Oxford university, edited by Richard Pring, and especially Those young people aspired to conventional jobs, such the section on NEETs, which talks about the danger of as chef, solicitor, holiday rep, bar worker, plumber and even using the NEET category, as it can lead people so on but, as the study went on to say, towards rather bad answers in public policy? “it was also clear that they did not have a planned trajectory Mr. Willetts: I have had this conversation with Professor for achieving those aspirations”. Pring, and I want to make a further point about NEETs The study added that they were pessimistic about where in a moment. Let me reiterate: the fact that we have had they would be in 10 years’ time. this economic growth across the west is not the point. I If anything, the problem has to do with the routes to am quoting from the OECD documents on what has achieving aspirations. Young people have to find their happened to NEETs in Britain compared with what way through a maze if they want to get the A-levels that happened in other advanced countries and across time. they need to get on the course that is best for fulfilling We have an obligation to explain these two trends in the their aspirations. Some very ingenious traps have been wrong direction. laid to send them down the wrong route. It would be Let me turn to the practical measures that could be perfectly reasonable for a person to think that a law brought forward to tackle some of these problems. My A-level would be a good route to becoming a lawyer, list overlaps with some of the list given by the Minister but we know that it is not a particularly good path to of State, Cabinet Office, which is a sign of progress for studying law at university or beyond. It is therefore not both of us. It is not quite the same, but let me work a good way to achieve aspirations in the law. through the options that are available. My list focuses I remember a fascinating interview on “Woman’s on teenagers and beyond. The Minister said in passing Hour” a few weeks ago. A young woman engineer had that I was not a fan of Sure Start—but I think that it come up with an ingenious device to serve as a low-energy does an excellent job. However, I am sceptical about fridge for the third world. It comprised two containers, what has been called early-years determinism, which one inside the other: the external one held soil or grass says if we do not fix children’s problems by the time that absorbed water, whose evaporation cooled the contents they reach the age of three, we might as well give up. We of the internal container. The interviewer said to the must not become so obsessed with the early years that inventor, “But you didn’t do engineering at university.” we forget the importance of providing opportunities for The young woman replied, “No one told me I needed to teenagers and adult learners. Sometimes the emphasis do maths for that, so I couldn’t do it.” It is clear that on early years has been so strong that we have lost sight there are people with great aptitudes and aspirations of what happens later in life. who are being let down because they are not being given Angela E. Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman a route through the maze. That is why careers advice is for explaining his position, but he has misrepresented so important. the Government. We have never suggested that we should give up on anything beyond early years, but we Mr. Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman is making a feel very strongly that support for early years is a crucial fascinating speech, but all the research done by the foundation for later development. He said that children’s Select Committee and the Skills Commission, which I experience in their early years need not determine their co-chair, is that the quality of information, advice and destiny, but the evidence is that those years can have a guidance for kids from economically challenged very great impact. If we ignore the early years, it is backgrounds is very poor. In contrast, middle-class much more difficult to catch up later. children have a network of uncles, aunts and other people who are graduates and have professional experience Mr. Willetts: I do not think that children’s opportunities and so they get high-quality advice to back up their can or should be determined by their experience in the aspirations. early years. Early years matter, but I expect my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings Mr. Willetts: I accept that. That is why the Government’s (Mr. Hayes) will speak later in the debate about what various changes to the careers service over the past has happened to adult learning opportunities. The absolute 10 years have really not helped. I do not think that the decline of more than 1 million adult learning places quality of careers advice, or the creation of Connexions, suggests that there has been such an exclusive focus on has helped at all. We believe that there should be a early years that the opportunities for people later on in professional all-age careers advice service that independently life to reshape their careers and get new skills have assists young people who are making their way in the indeed been reduced. world. There have been at least two sets of changes. The 989 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 990

[Mr. Willetts] aptitude test, so that there is an objective test of their merit; the scheme is not simply an exercise in social dismantling of the Careers Service as it existed in 1997 selection. The places are additional, so no one with was a mistake. The chopping and changing on Connexions good grades misses out. There is also an extra year—an has not helped. We attach a large amount of importance American-style foundation year—to bring those students to independent careers advice. The Minister has to up to the level that is necessary if they are to be properly accept that the Government’s record of chopping and trained and are to qualify as doctors. changing, and of focusing on Connexions instead of Of course, one can only leave that medical school as a independent careers advice, has not helped young people doctor, with a proper qualification, if one has achieved through the maze that confronts them. So the first item exactly the same high level as others have had to achieve on my list is better careers advice from a genuine, before. None of us wants to have heart surgery performed independent, professional careers service. by a consultant who may not have been very good at it, The second item on my list is internships. I remember but who at least came from a poor background. There the launch in January of the national internship scheme comes a point when sheer objective standards matter, by the former Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and one can pass only if one has achieved those standards. and Skills, the right hon. Member for Southampton, That seems an admirable initiative. Again, I hoped that Itchen (Mr. Denham), using that well-known device, an we might hear more from the Minister of State, Cabinet interview with The Daily Telegraph. He identified Microsoft Office, who opened the debate, about the Department’s and Barclays as companies that would join that scheme. ideas on how that initiative could be extended. I hope that the Minister for Higher Education and There are two other items on our list of five. The Intellectual Property, who will wind up the debate, can fourth item is skills apprenticeships and better routes give us some more information about that. Since then, from apprenticeships to university. The Minister said Barclays and Microsoft have made it clear that they that the UCAS points system would include apprenticeships, already run internship schemes. They seem to have no but that is easier said than done. I have had conversations proposals to change them in any way. We have heard with UCAS about that, as I am sure the Ministers will about lists of places in a graduate talent pool that has have had, but the UCAS application form and website been launched. are unclear and there is very little about apprenticeships. I received a written answer today from the Minister There is a lot of information about the value attached for Higher Education and Intellectual Property. I had to music grades, for example, and a reference to the tried to identify how seriously the Government were value attached to a horsemanship qualification, but taking the new internship scheme by finding out how trying to track down the value attached to an apprenticeship much money they had allocated to it. So far as I can tell is not at all easy. UCAS says that its problem, which from his answer, they have put £800,000 into a website. I invokes a separate debate that we have had on other have to say that it is not at all clear how the 5,000 extra occasions, is that there is such a diversity of training internships are to be financed, or what has happened to schemes called apprenticeships. The term “apprenticeships” the national internship scheme beyond the work on that no longer involves simply level 3, but level 2, so it is website on opportunities. That website may be admirable, difficult for UCAS to include apprenticeships automatically but it is not quite what his previous boss launched in on its form. If the Minister, in his winding-up speech, January. were to flesh out what the other Minister said in her What has happened to the national internship scheme, opening speech about exactly how all those apprenticeships and what resources are the Government putting behind will involve UCAS, that would be very interesting. We it? I am interested in that, because we understand and strongly support such apprenticeships, and I have urged accept the evidence, which is absolutely clear: the UCAS to do better on identifying them. concentration of internships in London and the south-east, and restricted access to them, is a barrier. That is why Mr. Milburn: The hon. Gentleman raises a very the Social Mobility Foundation, and its work with important point, but what is his view on the solution internships in this House, is such an excellent initiative. that the panel received in evidence? There has been a That was the second item on my list. huge growth in the number of apprenticeships, and we can argue about whether that is right or wrong, but The third item on the list, of course, is the “three As opening up such opportunities to a mix of in-college at A-level”challenge. To get into the competitive professions, and on-the-job training seems to be a broadly good which often select from a relatively small group of thing. There is, none the less, a transitional problem: universities, one needs very good A-level grades. There when only 0.2 per cent. of apprentices are able to go on are a variety of attempts to tackle the problem. We have to further or higher education, there is at best a silo to be wary of any system that just chucks applicants problem in our training and education system. What into the bin because they have been to private school, or would he do about that? because we think that they come from an affluent background. We need measures that are clear, defensible Mr. Willetts: We support apprenticeships, but part of and well understood. the problem is the new broader definition of apprenticeships, The scheme that has impressed me most is that at which includes level 2 as well as level 3 and is part of the King’s College, which aims at broadening access to UCAS problem. So far as I know, no other advanced Guy’s, King’s and St. Thomas’ school of medicine. western country calls level 2 “apprenticeships”; by and King’s College has created up to 50 extra places a year, large that description is reserved for level 3, as it used to on top of its mainstream recruitment, for students from be here. state schools in 15 of the poorest London boroughs. It Using some of the Train to Gain budget, we have accepts them with A-level grades down to two Bs and a proposed skills scholarships aimed specifically at funding C, but they are subject to an internationally recognised apprentices to go to university. We made the initial 991 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 992 suggestion because the figures are so low. If the Minister criticism rather deeper than I would have expected from were to give us reliable figures, we would appreciate it, him. It is also a great pleasure to follow the Minister, because they are hard to pin down. We suggested funding whom I congratulate on her appointment to an important 2,000 apprentices to go to university and take courses post. I know that the work that she is and will be doing that would enable them to develop the skills that they on social exclusion, and her knowledge from first-hand had already displayed in their apprenticeship, and we experience, will be brought to bear and make an enormous thought that it would be a very good use of a modest difference to the Government’s policy. part of the Train to Gain budget. I very much welcome this debate, and I thank the Mr. Sheerman: We are enjoying what the hon. Gentleman Government and the business managers for finding is saying, but is not the real gap between the traditional time for it. It is about an important issue. For me at three to four-year apprenticeship in engineering—the least, how we ensure that as wide as possible a pool of crème de la crème—and the average one-year apprenticeship talent gets access and opportunities to pursue a professional in retailing and distribution? In between, we need health career goes to the heart of what a modern Britain authorities, local government, universities—everybody—to should look like. I am proud to have served as part of a create apprenticeships so that there is a much broader Government who have worked so hard over so many mix of apprenticeships. Then they will go through into years to open up more opportunities to people. One of higher education. the things to strike me, following the contribution of the hon. Member for Havant, is that in one sense there Mr. Willetts: I completely agree, and have nothing to is a progressive consensus nowadays in the House. All add to that excellent comment. It is one reason why we, parties have come to the view that ensuring that Britain through parliamentary questions, have been trying to is a mobile society is a perfectly legitimate objective—and, track the record, not least of Departments and quangos, indeed, a priority—for public policy. on apprenticeships. It is a very mixed record indeed, with large swathes of Whitehall not having taken on This debate gives me an opportunity to place on the apprenticeships but giving a very poor performance, record my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Prime which we hope will now improve. Minister for asking me to chair the panel on fair access to the professions. I also thank my fellow panel members The final item on my list of five barriers to overcome and my excellent Cabinet Office strategy unit secretariat involves opportunities later in life. Many professions for their hard work. tell us that the broader social mix of their recruitment comes from the older people whom they recruit. Sadly, The debate comes at a particularly timely point in our they are able to reach out more widely at that level than considerations because we have just finished our call for they are through the conventional route of 18-year-olds evidence. As I told my hon. Friend the Member for who go to university and are then recruited. Of course, Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) on Monday, when I was we have to do better with the 18-year-olds and the before the Children, Schools and Families Committee, university route, but opportunities in later life do matter, which he chairs, I have been staggered by the response. and we should not forget universities’ continuing There have been 13,000 pages of evidence from a rich unhappiness about the equivalent level qualification— variety of organisations. Most importantly of all, we ELQ—policy, which means that if someone already has have heard from young people themselves, who have a university qualification in something completely unrelated, had some stark, insightful things to say to us. We have and if they want to go back to university and study also heard from employers and representatives of trade something else many years later, it is very hard to unions, schools, universities, professional organisations change career and direction. We should not forget the and voluntary-sector bodies. disappearance of other adult learning places, either. That fantastic response indicates that the broad issue The Open university, a fantastic institution that does of social mobility and the narrower issue of access to such a good job in spreading access to higher education, the professions strike a chord in the British psyche. has lost £30 million as a result of the ELQ policy. They do so for a number of reasons. First, people Birkbeck college is an institution with which many on nowadays recognise the growing importance of professional the Labour Benchers have an association: when the employment opportunities. As we speak, one in three of ELQ policy was proposed, it lost one third of its students all jobs in the British economy are either managerial or at a cost of £7.8 million. That such institutions, which professional. As the Minister said a moment or two are particularly devoted to giving people a second chance, ago, the number of such jobs is set to rise dramatically were worst hit by the ELQ policy shows that there was a in the years to come. Some of the evidence that we have failure to ensure that people have opportunities later received suggests that fully nine in 10 of all future job in life. opportunities in this country in the next decade or so I enjoyed the Minister’s speech and I look forward to will be professional in nature. It is possible that once what the right hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) retirements are taken into account, the country will will say about his report. If his final proposals match need to recruit a further 7 million professional workers the excellent analysis in the opening two reports, we over the course of the next decade or so. At a time of have much to look forward to. deep and painful global economic recession, it is very easy to forget that our professions—our armed services, 3.1 pm our cultural industries, our doctors, our lawyers—are Mr. Alan Milburn (Darlington) (Lab): It is always a genuinely among the leaders in the world. We should great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Havant therefore have confidence in the fact that Britain is (Mr. Willetts). At some points in his speech, his insight incredibly well placed to compete in the more knowledge- and knowledge were in danger of creating a progressive based economies that we are bound to see in the years consensus in the House; then, however, he lapsed into to come. 993 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 994

[Mr. Alan Milburn] of our senior civil servants received a private education. It is not even the fact that although only 7 per cent. of Secondly, if the trend of recent decades continues the population attend an independent school, fully two into future decades, and we see falling demand for thirds of the Members of the House of Lords and one unskilled labour, as we are bound to do, and rising third of the Members of this place were privately educated. demand for skilled labour, as will probably occur, there It is broader than that. is a terrible risk that we will end up with people who, Over time, social exclusivity has got worse rather without qualifications or skills, risk being left behind than better across all the professions. The panel’s first economically and stranded socially. Already, in this city report indicates that the older generation of today’s of London, well over half of all jobs are professional professionals, people born, like I was, about 1958—a jobs—and a jolly good thing too. In my part of the long time ago—on average came from families with world, the north-east, the proportion is under one third. incomes 17 per cent. above that of the average family. Unless appropriate action is taken in the years to come, For the younger generation of today’s professionals, the we risk seeing more employment segregation, not less. people born about 1970, that figure had risen to 27 per Thirdly, people feel that these social developments cent. That is the generation of my right hon. Friend the offer a great opportunity as well as a great challenge. Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual Property. The generation of the late 1950s, of which I am part, On average, today’s doctors and lawyers come from were the beneficiaries of a mobility in society that came families with incomes two thirds above that of the about because of a change in the economy—what the average family.As the hon. Member for Havant interestingly academics call more room at the top. In simple terms, pointed out, guess which profession has become the more service jobs and more professional jobs became most socially exclusive over that period? I use only one available, which benefited both men and women— word—journalism. particularly, perhaps, women, allied with the huge social There has been a dramatic change, and the weight of changes that we saw in the 1960s. However, a more fluid that evidence points to one thing. Despite the progress society was not something that simply happened by that has been made over recent times, there is an enormous chance: it happened in part because a big policy choice chasm between where we are and where we need to be if was made. It came about as a consequence of Government we are to realise the social benefits of a huge potential action, not just inevitable economic and social change. increase in professional employment opportunities in Having won a pretty gruelling war in which so many the years to come. people in our country made such enormous sacrifices, This is not just an issue for those at the bottom of during that decade—the 1950s—there was a shared society. Too many able kids from an average income determination to win the peace. background or from middle-class families find themselves I suppose that that commitment found its expression losing out in the race for a professional job, so this is an in the huge achievements of the post-war Labour issue not for the minority in our country but for the Government—universal education, full employment and majority. It matters to what President Clinton once a modern welfare state. Millions of people received famously referred to as “the forgotten middle classes”. opportunities that they would not otherwise have done—me If the aspirations that most hard-working families have included. I have been very fortunate in my life. I grew up for themselves, their children and their communities are on a council estate and ended up in the Cabinet. I thwarted, social responsibility and individual endeavour sometimes worry whether that might still be possible are inevitably undermined. today; our ambition, surely, has to be to make it so, and What has struck me forcibly during the course of the I believe that we can. Given the huge changes that we panel’s proceedings, having listened to young people are going to see not just in our national economy but in from a wide variety of backgrounds, is the emergence of the global economy, we can, provided that we make the what I call the “not for the likes of me” syndrome. right policy choices, have a second great wave of social People might say, “I am thinking of becoming a nurse, mobility in our country, where new opportunities for but it is not for the likes of me to become a doctor”, or this generation and future generations are opened up. “I might go into hairdressing, but I would never consider a career in law”. Something quite profound is happening. Fourthly, we have to be candid in this debate. We can When one in two kids whose parents are professionals discuss to what extent we have reduced inequality or are willing to consider a professional career, that is a tackled poverty in recent years, but we can accept that fantastic thing. But when only one in six kids from average there has, at a minimum, been progress: there are far income backgrounds—not the most disadvantaged—are fewer poor people than there were. That is a great willing to consider a professional career, surely we have achievement. However, two decades after Mrs. Thatcher an aspiration gap that we have to find a way of bridging. declared that the closed shop was dead in the workplace, we still have too much of a closed shop society. The way Mr. Hayes: I am so excited by the right hon. Gentleman’s that I characterise it is this: we might have raised the speech, and the one that preceded it, that I am obliged glass ceiling, but we certainly have not, as yet, broken to intervene to ask whether he agrees that social cohesion through it. Among the evidence that the hon. Member is particularly damaged by what he has just described. It for Havant and my hon. Friend the Minister referred to is not that people’s aspiration or ambitions have changed, is that which we have received about the nature of but their means of achieving their ambitions seem ever professional employment. The worrying thing is that more remote, leaving them discouraged, depressed, even despite the many commendable efforts on the part of hostile. the professions—all the initiatives, schemes, mentorships and so on—we have seen greater, not less, social exclusivity. Mr. Milburn: The hon. Gentleman is on to a very It is not just the fact that three in four of our judges are important point. One thing that I am absolutely convinced privately educated. It is not just the fact that fully half about, not just from anecdotal evidence but from academic 995 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 996 evidence, is that the problem is not that young people because it is one of the most progressive. John is an do not have aspirations, it is that they are blocked in impressive person who brings great knowledge and fulfilling them. It is not that the country does not have insight to the panel’s work. My hon. Friend is right. I talent—to coin a phrase, Britain’s got talent. It’s got lots think that the hon. Member for Havant made the same of talent. The issue is how we can unleash it. point in his contribution. Not everybody will aspire to be, or have the aptitude There is a danger in debates on education. There are to be, a doctor or a lawyer—of course not. Not everybody strong adherents to the importance of early years education, will want to come into this place. However, for those and there are those who say, “What really counts is who do, surely our objective as a society must be to pre-16”, while others say, “In the modern world, where ensure an equal opportunity, in the best sense of the skills are changing ever faster, it’s about what happens phrase, for them to achieve that. I fear that that does post-16.” However, it is not a case of either/or. We must not exist today. move from a mindset of educational opportunity having to be about a one-off chance—it is not; it must be a Mr. Sheerman: I am fascinated by my right hon. chance throughout life. If ever there were a need to Friend’s work in listening to young people. Our Committee realise the slogan, “lifelong learning”, it is now, in the has also listened to young people, and we have found modern world. The world is changing so fast and that physical mobility is a challenge in our country knowledge is expanding so quickly that if we limit today. When we had national service, in the period to children to a one-off opportunity at 11, 16 or 18, we will which my right hon. Friend referred, young working-class do the current and future generations an enormous men in particular were very mobile—they went around disservice. the country and around the world for the first time. More and more young people are now stuck on their Of course, no single lever can prise open opportunities estates or in their towns and are not very physically in the professions and no single organisation can achieve mobile. Middle-class children go away to university and that. The subject is far too complex. It is as much about are very mobile. Physical mobility is important in raising family networks as careers advice; as much about standards aspirations. in schools as university admission procedures, and as much about work experience as career development Mr. Milburn: When I compare my kids’ experiences opportunities. The panel is looking at all those aspects and life chances with those of my childhood, it shows and many more, but it might be helpful to the House to that we are living in a different world. It is amazing, and know that we are focusing on a handful of issues in something to cherish about modern society that, by and particular and to hear where we are in our consideration large, there are fantastic opportunities for more and of them. more people. We live in a world of opportunity. First, how do we provide many more young people Notwithstanding the problems of economic recession, with practical exposure to the professions at an early we live in a world of greater plenty than ever. However, enough stage in their education? There is no shortage of my hon. Friend is right that, at the bottom end, there is fantastic schemes, including school outreach and mentoring ghettoisation of disadvantage. We should all, regardless schemes, run by fabulous organisations such as the of political persuasion or ideology, be deeply concerned Brightside Trust, the Sutton Trust, the Citizenship about that for the reason that the hon. Member for Foundation and the Social Mobility Foundation. Exposure South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) mentioned: to what it means to be a doctor, a lawyer, a journalist or the good of our society. That is what we should be even—heaven help us—a politician and hearing first bothered about in this place. I therefore believe that the hand what it means to do the job is particularly important, work of my fellow panel members and that of the hon. as we have discussed, for kids who come from families Member for Havant on social mobility is so important. who have no such exposure to professional careers. I am pleased that social mobility has become such a Such schemes often have a bigger impact on children’s cause célèbre in modern political discourse. We have a future career development than school work experience common problem, to which we might not have common programmes do, which are crying out for a radical solutions, but we are determined to do something about overhaul. Good though the initiatives that I have mentioned the dichotomy of opportunity to which my hon. Friend are, however, they are pretty fragmented and deeply the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) referred. unco-ordinated. To give one example, only 60 of the 260 combined cadet forces, from which so many future Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): I am armed service officers are drawn, are based in state sorry to have missed the early part of the debate. I will schools. The rest are based in independent schools. read it in Hansard and examine the detail of the work of my right hon. Friend’s panel. Has he studied of necessity That, like so much else, is something that we have to of allowing entry to the professions at more mature change. So too is the way in which we provide advice ages? Does he recollect from his experience as Secretary and guidance, so that young people can make an informed of State for Health the advent of the Peninsula medical choice about the career that is right for them. This is the school and the way in which it opens up opportunities second area on which the panel is rightly focusing for people to enter the medical profession? attention. Like the hon. Member for Havant, I believe that a fundamental overhaul is needed. We have a more Mr. Milburn: Oh happy days! Yes, I do, and I also complex labour market than ever before. More than well remember my hon. Friend’s championing of Peninsula’s ever, navigating young people through the choices, cause. She knows that Sir John Tooke, who does a opportunities and complexities that they now confront fantastic job at Peninsula, is one of the panel members. requires good careers advice. Yet one survey of students It is not only one of the most progressive but one of the found that three in four were unhappy with the quality best medical schools in the country—I should have said of the advice that they had received. A further survey, “and”, not “but” in that sentence. It is one of the best commissioned by the panel from the very good careers 997 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 998

[Mr. Milburn] want to intervene to ensure that life chances are made available subsequently. My point is a simple one, however. website icould and released today, found that 70 per I believe that things have fundamentally changed in, for cent. of under-14-year-olds say that they have had no example, the civil service. There was a time when the careers advice and that 45 per cent. of over-14-year-olds debate in the civil service centred on its being all white say that they have had no advice or very limited advice. and all male. That might still be overwhelmingly true, Girls rate the advice rather worse than boys do. but it is less so. What was the change that made the During all our proceedings, all our hearings and all biggest difference? Of course, some will say that it was our evidence-gathering sessions, I have heard barely one the changes in legislation that we passed in this place, good word about the careers work of the Connexions but what really made the difference was changes in service. I have no doubt that other aspects of its work information. That is an area that we need deeply to are absolutely exemplary. However, I can only conclude consider. that its focus on the small minority of vulnerable young people with deep, entrenched and complex problems is Mr. Sheerman: I fear that Quentin Letts will have unfortunately distracting it from providing good careers another go at me for making this point. Let us look at advice to the majority of young people. That is simply the diversity of the BBC, which it brags about. According not good enough. I know that there has been some to many criteria, including ethnicity and gender, it is a change, but in my view the service requires a quite very diverse employer, but when it comes to social class, radical rethink. I can tell the House that my panel will we see that people who studied in independent schools be making recommendations on precisely how we should are hugely over-represented there. I shall now wait to do so. see the Daily Mail. Thirdly, getting a professional job nowadays requires Mr. Milburn: Yes, I have a feeling it will be coming more than aptitude and ability and more, even, than a my hon. Friend’s way. qualification. People also have to be able to demonstrate work experience. Four out of five employers say that I guess that we knew that, although it is just a guess. they go on to employ interns. Internships have become, That is the point, I suppose. I guess that we had a hunch as it were, a new rung on the modern professional career about it, and we have some rudimentary data, but they ladder. All too often, however, internships are handed are pretty rudimentary. This is an issue of accountability out on the basis of who someone knows, not what they for public sector bodies, including the BBC, to consider. know. Too often, what counts is family connections, They are funded from the public purse—from the taxpayer’s rather than open advertisement. That, too, must change. money. They must ensure that they are as broadly As my hon. Friend the Minister said, most internships representative as possible of the population as a whole in careers such as law are overwhelmingly concentrated that they serve. However, the only way that we will ever in London and the south-east. Because interns usually know whether that is happening is by collecting and have to work for free, many young people from average disseminating the relevant data. family backgrounds are simply priced out of the intern market altogether. Mr. Sheerman: I recently wrote an article in the Fabian Review that gave me some notoriety. In it, I Again, that is an area on which the panel will be pointed out that people who are paid from the public making recommendations for change. purse, including vice-chancellors, head teachers, the Fourthly, the way in which employers and universities heads of children’s services and those who work for the go about selecting their entrants will of course determine BBC, should be expected to send their children to state the future social profile of the professions. Some make a schools. big effort to recruit widely; others recruit very narrowly. In the end, it is for employers to decide how they go Mr. Milburn: That is a slightly more contentious about recruiting their staff, but whereas nowadays we point. Is it time for my hon. Friend to leave? collect and publish data on the gender and racial make-up We know that when universities broaden their base of organisations to ensure that those such as the civil for recruitment, it does not lower levels of achievement. service are what they say on the tin—and are equal Figures from the Higher Education Funding Council opportunities employers—we neither collect nor publish show that students from state schools, once they get comparable data on social background. In my view, we into university, perform at the same level as—or at a need to think very carefully about that. higher level than—students from private schools who Mr. Hayes: Does not that tie in closely with the point might have got higher grades at A-level. The hon. made by the Chairman of the Children, Schools and Member for Havant referred to the fantastic scheme at Families Committee about the white working-class King’s college. In my view, it is an exemplar that all youngsters who, with few champions and feeling left universities and employers would do well to heed. Why? out, fare worse in the circumstances that the right hon. Because it contains this simple lesson: it is not ability Gentleman describes? We have made great progress but opportunity that is unevenly distributed. The job of with minority groups, but little progress with those universities in particular is to ensure that opportunities young people. are as widely distributed as possible, but some would find it hard to make that claim right now. Mr. Milburn: It is important in these debates to Fifthly, entry to a professional job increasingly requires ensure that the emphasis is on all groups and not just on a university degree, as the hon. Member for South some. However, we also have to recognise that different Holland and The Deepings mentioned. In the old days, people from different backgrounds have different starting as he said, journalists could work their way up from a points in life. There is no equality of life chances at the local paper to Fleet street. Nowadays, Fleet street no beginning of life, and public policy will quite rightly longer exists and journalism is a graduate entry profession. 999 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1000

Nursing and social care are now joining a long list of improving their performance at four times the national professions increasingly becoming graduate entry. There average. It is also progress when, notwithstanding our may be, and there often are, very good reasons for that, debate about early years education, this country has but there is also the danger that qualification inflation finally begun to learn the lessons from the Scandinavian will simply make these professions more socially exclusive countries where universal child care has for many years than they need to be. brought enhanced mobility and narrowed inequality. What I find interesting about so much professional This, for me, is a fundamental point: the desire to work in recent years—the hon. Member for Cities of increase social mobility cannot be a substitute for the London and Westminster (Mr. Field) rightly defended desire for a more equal society. It is no coincidence that the professions—can be seen in the teaching profession, countries as different as Sweden, Australia and the which has recently sought to disaggregate and devolve Netherlands are among the most socially fluid in the some of its functions to non-graduates, so we now have world. They are also among the most fair in the world. classroom assistants helping teachers in the classroom. That is why the Government’s efforts—despite the obvious We have health care assistants helping nurses on the challenges—to abolish child poverty are so important, wards and we have police community support officers and that is why I hope all parties in the House will make helping police officers on the streets. I think that there is similar firm commitments, backed by firm resources, to an important lesson to be learned from that, which is achieve that objective. how the professions can begin to create new ladders of Breaking the relationship between class origin and opportunity by devolving functions down rather than class destination is a battle for the long term, which always seeming to take functions and qualification levels requires an holistic approach. Amartya Sen, winner of up. I can tell the House that my panel is looking at how the Nobel prize for economics, once rightly said families to extend such opportunities. can suffer not only economic but cultural, educational Many of the panel’s recommendations will, of course, and housing disadvantage. We need to make a fundamental be for the professions to action, and I have seen a lot of break from the approach that has so often dominated willingness on their part to do so. The most progressive policy in the past. We need to move from the traditional parts of the professions are already opening their doors welfare state approach, which seeks to correct the outcome to a wider cohort of talent. I hope that when we of market-driven inequalities such as family poverty or produce the report in the autumn, it will very much go low wages retrospectively, towards an approach that with the grain of those efforts. Equally, where there proactively reduces inequality and advances mobility remains evidence of a closed-shop mentality, I hope by tackling the roots of those problems rather than that we will be fearless in exposing and tackling it. I do their symptoms. That is not a job for any one part of the not believe that it is only in the country’s interest for the Government; it is a job for the whole Government. professions to fish in a wider pool of talent, as it is in Let me give an example. We know that in a modern, the professions’ own interests, too. If the professions are knowledge-based economy, education will become ever properly to serve the interests of a Britain that is more the motor of mobility, but despite the good progress characterised by its rich diversity more than ever before, of recent years, the attainment gap remains far too they, too, need more fully to embrace the notion of wide. A child who is not receiving free school meals is diversity. Despite some commendable efforts, that is still much more likely to get five good GCSEs than one not, by and large, where I believe they are today. who is. Less than half the number of black Afro-Caribbean Achieving that is not just a job for the professions. Of boys get five good GCSEs, although the national average course, they can do a lot more to put their house in is closer to two thirds. order, but what they cannot do is instil in kids an Like many others, I applaud the Government’s efforts aspiration to pursue a professional career. That has to to break that cycle of educational disadvantage. City come from individual citizens, their families and their academies, trust schools, a focus on personalised learning communities. Neither can the professions create the and the new soft skill development described in the framework within which individuals will have many Rose review are making a difference, and I think that more opportunities to realise their aspirations to progress. they will continue to do so in future. However, I believe That is properly the job of the Government. that we need to do more still to ensure that good There is a broader canvas here, which both the hon. schools are just as accessible to poorer parents as they Member for Havant and my hon. Friend the Minister of are to the better-off. The truth is that the more wealth State, Cabinet Office touched on in their remarks. In my people have, the more choice they are given. If they are view—I stress that this is my view and not necessarily wealthy enough, they can opt their children out of that of the panel—it is a canvas on which we need to poorer schools and take them to private schools. I have begin to paint a rather different picture. I said earlier no objection to that. Alternatively, they can supplement that I am very proud of what this Government have state education with private tuition, or use the most done to open up more opportunities to more people. potent of all market mechanisms and buy a house Like many others, I would have liked progress to have adjacent to a good school. been faster, but it is no mean achievement when the By and large, selection by academic ability has Sutton Trust can report that after decades of social disappeared from our education system, but let us not mobility declining in our country, it has now at the very pretend that selection by social position has disappeared. least bottomed out. Unfortunately, we still have an education system in That is progress. It is also progress when primary which affluence buys attainment, and that must restrict schools in the poorest areas have improved almost twice mobility. There are 25,000 schools in the country. In the as fast as those in the most affluent, and when in the overwhelming majority standards are rising, but in 2007, secondary school sector, city academies—despite having 638 secondary schools containing around 600,000 kids twice the number of kids on free school meals—are were failing to secure five good GCSEs for 30 per cent. 1001 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1002

[Mr. Milburn] (Mr. Milburn) and to have to confess that I am one of the third of Members of this House educated in an of their pupils. Overwhelmingly, those schools have independent school. I am feeling waves of class guilt been consistently underperforming for many years, and this afternoon. I welcome the Minister to her new role. guess what? They are located in the areas of greatest Clearly the debate is topical. All three main parties social disadvantage. have had commissions of some kind or instituted research I have long advocated that, in addition to the raft of into social mobility. It is clearly an important issue to measures that the Government have rightly introduced people all across the political spectrum. As the matter to improve standards and discipline and provide good has been discussed across the spectrum, some interesting teachers, and in addition to all the other structural views have been expressed in blogs and in political changes that have been made, one further step should commentary in newspapers and the media. be taken. Kids and their parents in disadvantaged areas There have been mutterings from some quarters that must be given precisely what kids and parents in more wealthy parents obviously will have children who do affluent areas get, which is more than preference: it is better because the parents are likely to be more educated, choice. more intelligent and more motivated and will expect My proposal to do so, in which I have long believed, their children to do better, and that that is the real is for those parents to be given an education credit—some explanation for the lack of social mobility in Britain. call it a voucher; I am not bothered what it is called, but There may be something in that, but there are also clear what it does—worth perhaps 150 per cent. of the cost of signs that children in Britain from disadvantaged educating their child, so that they can take their child backgrounds who show great potential are being let from the school that is failing to deliver good results to down. A lot of statistics have been flying back and forth another state school that is delivering results. I know this afternoon, but one in particular sends shivers down that there will be many objections and concerns about my spine: tests on pre-school children at age three show such a proposal, but I do not believe that it is right—or that the initially least bright children from the richest that it should be tolerated—to have a situation where fifth of households overtake the initially brightest children too many disadvantaged kids are still let down by the from the poorest fifth of households between the ages schools system. Overwhelmingly, I repeat, school standards of five and 10. That shows not only that there are many are rising, but sadly the areas where they rise least and influences at play other than genes, but that that happens where most progress needs to be made are in the poorest remarkably fast. I find it horrifying that from the age of areas. The only way in which I believe that can be done three in just two years we see a marked change in is by empowering parents to have greater choice. children’s opportunities. That brings me to my final point. I do not believe that Education and upbringing are an influence. Those we will get social mobility moving in this country if we who get a superior education in a school that does not think that somehow or other it is purely economic have discipline problems and where the other pupils are distribution that is our problem. We will not get social keen to learn will have an advantage that sticks with mobility moving if we think that it is only wealth that is them into later life, and the impact of a private education unevenly distributed. It is also power. When you are is much greater than we would expect. For example, poor you have precious little power. The sense of students who have a private education are 55 times hopelessness that clouds the poorest communities in more likely to be accepted into one of the five best our country grows out of disempowerment. If Britain is universities in the UK. That is far higher than we would to get moving again socially, people need to be able not expect as a result of normal opportunity, genetics, just to get a job, training or child care but to enjoy far parents’ expectations and so forth. greater control over, and have a bigger say in, how they The Government are keen to tackle this issue; they lead their lives. Beating crime, creating jobs and rebuilding have been talking about it, and they have put in place estates all help, but I have long believed that that cloud many measures over the past few years. However, the of despondency can only be dispelled through a modern same barriers are still in place, and some of them are participatory politics that allows both local communities even greater than before. Each year, 60,000 people who and individual citizens more evenly and directly to were in the top 20 per cent. of their school cohort do share in power. not reach higher education. That is a lot of people One thing is certain. Modern Britain cannot work if whose potential is being wasted as they enter adulthood. it harbours a closed shop mentality. Our economy will Although the Government have focused on education, not prosper unless we harness the talent of all of those there has not been enough progress towards making a who are able to and aspire to make a contribution. Our step change. society will not work unless people feel that their endeavours There is considerable evidence that the introduction and efforts are suitably rewarded. That is why I hope and expansion of universal education systems in the that the work of the panel that I am honoured to chair UK and broadly across western Europe have not led to will help renew our determination in this place systematically increases in relative social mobility. to unblock every obstacle that stands in the way of individuals being able to realise their own aspirations to Mr. Hayes: Indeed, the hon. Lady might go further: I progress. That for me is what modern government is all would go so far as to say that the expansion of university about and that is why I very much welcome this debate. education over my lifetime has cemented social division.

3.43 pm Jenny Willott: There is an argument for that. Some of Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): It is a daunting the statistics on graduate training show that that has led prospect to follow such a knowledgeable and interesting to certain divisions, and the increase in people going speech from the right hon. Member for Darlington through university has led to the possibility for professions 1003 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1004 to insist on a degree. However, I do not agree with the therefore really push their children to go to university, hon. Gentleman if he is saying that it is not a good to progress and to get into the professions, but a worrying thing to encourage more people to acquire more number of parents do not have any higher expectations qualifications through further or higher education; we for their children than they have for themselves. should all be striving to achieve that. Last month, I spoke to a lady in south Wales who had just encouraged her daughter to leave school as soon as Mr. Hayes: I was making the point not that that is a she turned 16 and could do so—before she did her bad thing, but that it is a good thing that is largely the GCSEs. The mother took that approach because she preserve of one class of people. Progress in working-class had hated school, did not trust teachers and thought people entering higher education has been stultifyingly school was a complete waste of time. That leaves two slow. Consequently, most middle-class young people generations of a family with no qualifications. That is now achieve in terms of higher education, whereas most such a waste of potential, and we really need to find working-class people do not. That is highly injurious to ways of circumventing it and ensuring that there remains social mobility. a way to motivate young people who have potential and Jenny Willott: There is certainly a class divide in to give them expectations and aspirations. We also need which children go to university and the universities to to help people who have those things to see where that which they go, and I shall return to that issue shortly. could lead and to develop. I agree with the Minister about the importance of Mr. Hayes: I promise that this is my last intervention, early-years education. There is a lot of evidence showing because it might eat into my own time, and that would that if we do not sort out some problems at a very early be monstrous. I invite the hon. Lady to make a more stage, it is significantly harder and more expensive, subtle point about the difference between expectation although not impossible, to solve them later. Making and ambition. It may well be that people have ambitions the investment at a very early stage pays dividends in and aspirations but do not have expectations. Perhaps the long run by helping children to fulfil their potential that is the problem. later in life. I have concerns, however, that where investment has Jenny Willott: Absolutely, and I think that parents been put in at an early stage, such as in children’s centres have a very important role to play in that. They may and Sure Start projects, there is evidence that, contrary want a lot for their children yet still not believe it is to the Government’s expectations, middle-class parents possible for them to achieve it. In such cases, schools have been much better at accessing that additional and teachers have a very important role to play in support than the families at which it is supposed to be building expectations in the children of what can be targeted. In an unexpected way, the disadvantage of achieved. some of the most disadvantaged families has thus been The Minister and the right hon. Member for Darlington further entrenched. mentioned some of the figures on parents’ and young One Liberal Democrat proposal that could help to people’s expectations of going into the professions. address this problem is to increase further the availability There is a more basic difference in people’s expectations of free child care. I have encountered a number of of their children going to university. More than a third constituency cases where people have been unable to of parents in the A and B socio-economic groups expect return to training and education after having children that their children will go to university, whereas the because they are not able to access child care tax credits figure is about one in 10 for parents in groups D and E. unless they are working. There would be significant That marked difference goes back to the point that the advantages to providing wider access to free, very high- hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings quality child care for parents who want to go back to (Mr. Hayes) has just made. If expectation is not built in, study and to train, particularly those who have not had even if somebody has the ambition to do something the opportunity to do so the first time around. I am they will not necessarily have the ability to take the final thinking, for example, of young mothers whose children step to do it. We need to overcome that by creating are likely to start off disadvantaged if that is not provided. other role models or children at both primary and One of the reasons why such provision could have a secondary school. Leaving it all to secondary school is significant impact is that parents who have a low level of too late. We need expectation, ambition and aspiration skills are less likely to be able to help their children as from a much earlier stage. they go through school. Some 5 million adults in Britain Much work has been done to try to get inspirational are classified as functionally illiterate, and 17 million teachers into schools in deprived areas, and that can adults have basic numeracy problems. Clearly, their make a big difference. My mother-in-law was a maths children are going to have fewer advantages when they teacher in a very run-down area of Liverpool, although go through the schools system, because their parents she was not from that background. Having a diverse are able to provide less support for doing homework range of teachers in schools in deprived areas makes a and so on. No matter how bright the children are, big difference to pupils who can see different ways for another layer of disadvantage is ingrained. their lives to progress. We need to ensure that we replicate As has been discussed, such circumstances also have that across the country. an impact on expectations. There is evidence that the A role could also be played by former students of primary source of expectations in life is one’s parents—that such schools who have been successful—perhaps who seems to be common sense—but the surrounding have gone to university and got professional jobs. They community and one’s school peers also have a significant could try to encourage more young people to follow impact. Someone whose parents went to university is them in their success. We have already heard about much more likely to expect to go there too. Other schemes that have been introduced in universities, schools parents want what they did not have for themselves and and independent bodies, but there are some interesting 1005 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1006

[Jenny Willott] graduate-only job. A lot of work could be done to help create career paths that would enable people to move, schemes that are nothing to do with career progression. such as having fewer graduate posts so that people who For example, Allen & Overy, the law firm, has a scheme do not have the opportunity to go to university or who in which its lawyers are encouraged to help in schools in realise later on in life what they want to do can progress east London, perhaps providing basic help with reading. into the professions. That helps the children, because they get personal attention Quite a bit has already been said about the need for from someone who focuses on them and makes them work experience and internships, and about the barriers feel important. It also breaks down barriers if they see that they put up. Clearly, some people find that difficult that someone who works as a corporate lawyer in the to access through the necessary contacts or find it City of London is a normal human being, doing a job expensive. The cost is probably one of the biggest issues that they could perhaps do themselves. It brings the job for a lot of people from disadvantaged areas. We are closer to the young person so that they see that it is just as guilty in this place. A lot of researchers find their something that they could do. It is important to replicate work by doing volunteer internships and working in an schemes like that to try to break down some of the MP’s office, and that puts such a career out of the reach barriers that are in place. of an awful lot of young people. We need to consider Other hon. Members have mentioned the role of how we recruit staff and try to encourage other people careers advisers. I agree that they have a crucial role to to apply. Internships and work experience are an easy play, and at a much earlier stage. I was given my first way to get free labour for many of the professions, but careers advice when I was about 17 and a half—although they should not be seen as that—because they can be, the advisers did not recommend that I enter Parliament. barriers are being put up that do significant damage to By that stage, I had already made choices that would the professions in the long run. limit what I could do, and we need to look at the choices The cost of internships and so on is not the only cost that young people have to make and give them more that puts people off. A lot of the professional training options. takes longer than other routes into work. Medicine Universities could also do a lot more to try to encourage requires a five-year degree, and law a three-year degree people from more unusual backgrounds to think about followed by one or two years of training. Not only do attending. My constituency covers Cardiff university, people face the additional cost of studying for a longer which has a scheme that involves a lot of outreach work period of time, but they have to put off until later their in schools in the much more deprived parts of the city. ability to start earning. That makes it difficult for some Students work with young people as, effectively, classroom people even to contemplate going into those careers. It assistants, trying to encourage them to think about is just too big a step for them to take right at the university and their options. In particular, female beginning. That is one reason why it should be easier to engineering students go into schools to try to encourage get into those careers later on. Those who had the young women to think about career options such as aspiration at a young age but found the financial barrier engineering that they often will not have considered as a too great at the age of 18 would be able to find other possibility. Given the geographical spread of universities ways in through working that enabled them to reach the across the country, there is a huge opportunity for them same end result. to do more outreach work in schools nearby to encourage It is also important that we flag up that this is not just young people. There are some very good examples of about education. The right hon. Member for Darlington such schemes already, and it is one important way of mentioned some of the other great barriers that prevent breaking down some of the expectational barriers. people from disadvantaged backgrounds from being Many young people, especially boys, do not pull their able to progress into professional roles. Elements as lives together and work out what they want to do until basic as expectations and the drive to succeed are affected they have left school. If we expect everyone to rely on by other factors as people are growing up. It is not just careers advice during their teens, too many people will parents’ expectations that affect people’s views and fall through the gaps. Hon. Members have already aspirations, but those of friends at school and of the mentioned the need for flexible routes into the professions. community. Some professions are good at doing that. For example, One thing that has had a significant impact on people’s it is still relatively easy—although less common than it expectations and aspirations over the past few decades used to be—to go into accountancy through a non-graduate has been segregated social housing. It has exacerbated a route. Nor is it necessary to be a graduate to pursue lot of the problems in areas that are blighted by crime, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development family problems and health problems, but there is also a qualifications. But more could be done to use people’s lot of evidence that negative forms of social capital work experience. As the right hon. Member for Darlington have built up in certain geographical areas that are pointed out, there are many divisions in some areas, often associated with social housing. There is much such as PCSOs working with the police and classroom more likely to be a culture of worklessness, higher levels assistants working with teachers, and it is a big step for of antisocial behaviour and higher levels of drug abuse. those who go into the non-graduate jobs to progress to There are likely to be a lack of positive role models in the other roles. the community, negative peer pressure and a poverty of We need to consider making it much easier for PCSOs ambition around people as they grow up, and that has to use their experience to pursue a career in the police, had a significant impact on large numbers of communities and for classroom assistants to move into teaching. We across the UK. must recognise that if they have the ability, the experience That situation is very difficult to unpick, because so that they get on the job can be just as useful—if not many different influences pull down the young people even more valuable—as university in enabling them to growing up in those communities. We can knock down fulfil a career that would otherwise be considered a one barrier by giving them a good education, but if we 1007 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1008 do not solve the other problems there are still many progress into the professions, but the gap in the UK is barriers to overcome. It makes it much more challenging much wider than could normally be explained by reference for them to progress out of the social environment in to genes, upbringing and so on. All the evidence shows which they have grown up. that bright children from disadvantaged areas are being A lot of practical problems are associated with areas let down by the systems that we have at the moment. In where there are concentrations of social housing. For school, they are overtaken at a very early stage by their instance, access to private transport is significantly lower, less bright but wealthier counterparts. They are less and public transport is often not very good either. That likely to go into higher or further education, and they presents a simple, physical barrier to studying, going to are far less likely to enter a profession. The changes job interviews or to working outside the immediate made to education over the years have not made enough area. Such areas also tend to have poorer-quality public of a difference. services—not just in education, but in the provision of I have five, quick suggestions about what would make health, leisure facilities and the other things that children a difference. The first concerns early-years education, need for self-confidence and a belief in their ability to which I have already mentioned. We need much wider progress. For instance, it has been shown that sporting availability of really high-quality early-years education activities can have a big impact on young people’s that not only enables parents to work, to get trained or ability to work in teams. In turn, that gives them self- to pursue further education, but helps children to develop, confidence and improves their ability to progress, but and helps to even out some of the disadvantages that lack of appropriate facilities can be another disadvantage they might face right at the start of life. Secondly, we for people trying to get into work. need to look at the housing mix so that we can inject The right hon. Member for Darlington talked about more opportunity and aspiration into deprived areas ghettos, and I have described how people in severely and break up the deprivation cycle that is pulling people deprived areas are affected by practical disadvantages down. in terms of education, health provision and transport. Thirdly, Liberal Democrat policy is to introduce a Young people from such areas are more likely to have pupil premium, which would mean that children from lower birth weights and to exhibit later behavioural disadvantaged backgrounds had more money attached conditions, and to begin primary school with lower to them. It would follow them into whatever school they levels of personal, social and emotional development. went to, which would mean that the finances were in the The fact that they are also likely to have higher levels of school to help provide additional support that might be communication, language and literacy problems means needed. That would make such a child much more that even the ones with high intelligence and great financially attractive to a school. If a school gets more potential at an early age are held back. Even if we money for taking such a child, it would be an incentive discount the other factors affecting their lives and for it to do so. That policy might help to ensure a concentrate on education, it is very difficult for such broader mix of backgrounds among young people in young people to break out of their circumstances. schools. I turn now to the question of broader inequality in Fourthly, we need to reduce the financial barriers to society that the right hon. Member for Darlington higher and further education. That does not just mean raised at the end of his contribution. Social mobility is looking at internships and so on; it also means considering not the only problem in that regard, as increasing tuition fees and the cost of going to university. For inequality across society as a whole also plays a part. In some young people, that hurdle is just too high. 1991, the richest 1 per cent. of people owned 17 per The final issue is non-graduate routes into professions. cent. of the nation’s wealth, but that proportion had I am sure that other people will talk about that, too. As risen to 23 per cent. by 2002. The gap is getting wider. has already been said this afternoon, that is not just an There has been a huge amount of research internationally issue for the individuals concerned, although it is a into equal and unequal societies. We know that the criminal waste of human potential in a lot of cases. As a more unequal a society, the more unhappy it is. We also country, we need the best people to be in the top roles. know that unequal societies have more of almost every We need the best people as our top soldiers, Cabinet social problem, from a greater incidence of teenage Ministers, doctors and lawyers. If we do not make sure pregnancies to higher murder rates, and that the standard that those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds of health across the community is less good. As was who show potential are able to get into those jobs, we noted earlier, inequality also generates high levels of are all missing out. what could be called social jealousy or frustration. I really look forward to seeing the report that the In more equal societies, people have more chance to right hon. Member for Darlington is to bring forward. thrive because of their intellect, with their parents’ Today, he mentioned a lot of practical suggestions; I backgrounds being less important in that regard. However, hope that we will all be able to pull together behind there is a clear link between inequality and social mobility: them, because the issue is not party political. It is a in all countries, children born of more educated parents matter in which we all, as citizens of the UK, have a are more literate than those from uneducated homes—that huge stake. Fortunately, it is right at the top of the is common sense—but the gap between children with political agenda of all three parties, and I hope that we uneducated parents and those with educated parents is can see progress over the next 12 months. much smaller in more equal countries than it is in unequal countries such as the UK. In other words, in 4.12 pm more equal countries, the built-in disadvantage for children Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): This is a from uneducated, illiterate households is much smaller. truly uplifting debate. I was wondering what I would do It is to be expected that in all countries there will in Parliament today, and I looked at the Order Paper some differential, based on parental background, in the and noticed that the right hon. Member for Darlington proportion of young people who go to university and (Mr. Milburn) was going to speak. He gave one of the 1009 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1010

[Mr. Charles Walker] for Higher Education and Intellectual Property, the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), and best speeches I have heard in this place in the four years of myself—makes huge attempts in its admissions process for which I have been a Member of Parliament. It is a to look not just at the kids who go to the private schools great privilege to take part in this debate. in New York or Boston. Its whole admissions policy is Our routes of travel may be different, but most Members geared to looking at kids from Watts or Harlem to see of Parliament want to get this country to the same how they have performed relative to their peer group, destination. I did not go into politics as a prosperous, not to kids from private schools. Harvard takes them in middle-class man to ensure that other people did not with the view that, through its “greenhouse effect”, they enjoy my advantages. I went into politics to make sure can then go on to achieve greatness. That does not that as many people as possible could have and enjoy always work, but we should think about bringing that the advantages that I had and continue to have. I philosophy to our higher education institutions a little represent a Hertfordshire seat, but Hertfordshire is not more. simply the sunlit leafy uplands of the home counties; Mr. Walker: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, there are many poor parts of Hertfordshire, albeit perhaps and I totally agree with that philosophy. I should like to not as many as in London. However, there are deprived see more of it in this country. parts of the county. We cannot socially engineer a perfect solution; it is When I visit the schools, particularly the primary not within our gift in this place today. However, schools, in the difficult areas, it is wonderful to see all collectively—we can have robust and passionate the shiny, smiley faces of the young people—the four, disagreement, but we can also come together for this five, six and seven-year-olds—who are busily learning, purpose—we can have the very highest aspirations for creating, and absorbing the information around them. the young people of this country. They are served by dedicated, hard-working teachers, I realise that we politicians are not in good odour, but but the real sadness is that when I talk to the teachers, I I am so lucky, because in my constituency there is a find that they can already identify the young people in wonderful young lady aged 16 who wrote to all the main their care who will struggle to make a success of their political parties saying, “I’m interested in politics; I’d lives. All that goodness and all those smiles, yet not all like to get involved,” and, thank God, we were the first those young children will go on to achieve great things, party to get back in touch with her. She is a truly although the potential is there when they are young. We remarkable young woman and she comes from a loving politicians in this place need to make sure that we allow home. I do not call it a disadvantaged home; she just that potential to blossom and flower. comes from a home where she has had fewer advantages I had the advantage of an extremely good education. than I had. She is a carer to members of her family, but I was lucky: my parents could afford to send me to a despite that, was also Hertfordshire’s volunteer of the good school, and of course I did moderately well in my year two years ago. She is the No. 1 academic performer exams. I am concerned, however, about the gap between in her school, a truly wonderful person who will go on youngsters who go to Eton and the best public schools to be twice if not three times the person I am. That is in this country, and youngsters who go to difficult just fabulous. I want more people who have not had the comprehensives, where getting an education is difficult, advantages that Charles Walker has had to go on to be not because they do not want it but because the twice, three times and four times the person I am, and I circumstances in which it is offered are difficult, with want many of those people to live in my constituency. less motivated classmates and parents. For years I thought As I said a few moments ago, this is a truly uplifting that it would be wrong in every way to discriminate debate. It may not be well attended, but I think that the against children who went to Eton; I thought that people in the Public Gallery have walked in on something someone who got four A*s at Eton should be guaranteed very special, and it has been a real honour to take part. a place at Oxford, Cambridge or one of the other great universities of this country. But at last I am beginning 4.19 pm to realise that perhaps three Bs from an inner-city Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Like my comprehensive may be worth more than three or four hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker), A*s from Eton. It may not always be the case, but such I was not expecting to speak in this debate, but its title a child may well have more potential to go on and captured my imagination. My mother was from the achieve true greatness than the child who is spoon-fed south Bronx and left school in her early teens to make at one of our great public schools. ties. My father was from Newark, New Jersey, and the I do not mean any disrespect to our public schools, only job he could get was breaking up the ground prior but I was travelling out to France and, finding myself to the construction of the runway at Newark airport. sitting next to two wonderful young men who were Unfortunately, he died at an early age. My mother came teachers at Eton, I said, “What’s it like teaching these over here and married an Englishman. I then had great young people?” They replied, “It’s easy: they’re self- opportunities that I might not have had in my previous motivating; they’re programmed to achieve; they compete life. Today, here I am—the hon. Member for Braintree. with each other; there’s no view in their mind that they Social mobility has worked to my advantage, and this will fail; they’re an absolute joy to teach.” Those two debate is important. I want to focus on some of the young men were truly charming, and I wish them every issues that have arisen in the 11 years or so since the success in the world. Government came to power. In 1997 social mobility was heralded as part of the Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): My hon. ideological bedrock of the Government. Tony Blair Friend makes an excellent point, and is referring to a himself said: philosophy in which I have always believed. In fact, “If we are in politics for one thing, it is to make sure that all Harvard university—the alma mater both of the Minister children are given the best chance in life.” 1011 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1012

All of us, on both sides of the House, believe that. The other developed nations. A decent and equitable standard current Prime Minister echoes the sentiment, promising of education can set a child on the right path towards a us a social mobility “crusade”. profession and give not only them, but future generations, However, the rhetoric and promises of the Government a chance to escape the debilitating cycle of deprivation. have, unfortunately, run aground on the rocks of reality. The upward trajectory of social mobility begins, first Between 1998 and 2006 the number of families living in and foremost, with education. Young people’s time at severe poverty increased by 400,000. Furthermore, child school and at home helps to shape their aspirations. poverty, after housing costs, rose by 100,000 between Worryingly, the panel on fair access to the professions 2006-07 and 2007-08. As the full effects of the recession found that professionals typically grew up in families continue to unfurl, I expect that the situation for those with incomes well above that of the average family, and already in poverty, or those teetering on the brink, will that only one in five young people from an average deteriorate further. income background and one in eight from a poorer Social mobility has stalled; the class divide remains. background aspire to be professionals. Young people Thousands of children are being deprived of the are not being given the support and advice to direct opportunity of a better life. The Government have them along the education and talent development pathways claimed to be the champion of social mobility, but they that could lead them to a better life. Already, seven in have fundamentally failed to understand the problem. 10 young people are unhappy with the careers support We do not make people’s lives better by telling them they receive. We must tap this reservoir of potential in that they have a legal right to a better life, by papering young people from lower-income homes—not just for over the cracks or by addressing the symptoms and not their own sake, but for the sake of the country’s future. the causes. The Government need to understand that By 2020, there are expected to be 90 per cent. fewer the only way to give people a better chance in life is to unskilled jobs and 50 per cent. more professional jobs tackle the root causes of the problem and build pathways in Britain. This is an enormous opportunity finally to of opportunity out of the cycle of deprivation. I make some real progress on social mobility, and the congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Government should have seized on it long ago. Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) I would suggest that the Government reflect on some on the work that he has done on the issue through the of our proposals if they are not to miss this golden Centre for Social Justice, which he founded. opportunity. A massive expansion in the provision of Too many children are born with wholly unequal life real apprenticeships at A-level standard could create chances. The best possible start in life comes with a 100,000 additional training places annually, and a new stable family life and a stable income. As a start, abolishing all-ages careers service and a professional careers adviser the couple penalty in the tax credit system would certainly in every secondary school and college would help to tap help. Child poverty is a serious impediment to social the potential out there. We have also pledged to invest mobility. The Government have set a commendable £20 million by the third year of a Conservative Government target to halve it by 2010, but their track record suggests to provide more than 1,000 bursaries for new university that they are unlikely to achieve that goal. They have places every year. That would extend to part-time study, already missed their 2005 target to reduce child poverty and could be decided on in conjunction with employers. by a quarter from 1998-99 levels. Furthermore, the However, it is important to remember that social inequalities Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts that, on the basis of can persist and continue to inhibit social mobility right their current policies, the Government will miss their through higher education and beyond. When seven in 2010 target as well. I say that with regret. 10 of the top graduate recruiters target only 20 of our The inequalities that persist throughout the education country’s universities, we can see this as a systemic system begin even before a child first enters the classroom. problem. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Darlington We must realise that it is never too late for social (Mr. Milburn) on his work on the panel on fair access to mobility, but we must also be able to accept when the professions. However, notwithstanding the points policies simply are not working. The new deal, one of that he made earlier, in 2007 the Sutton Trust, founded this Government’s flagship policies, has failed to get by my friend Peter Lampl, said that despite 10 years of people back into work and failed to improve people’s a Labour Government the best schools remained socially life chances. For example, in 2008 just 29 per cent. of selective—hardly a glowing epitaph for a Government new deal participants had gone on into employment. claiming to be the champion of social mobility. For all its hype, the new deal is more of a revolving door The Conservative policy of making money available back to benefits than a fast track to social mobility; last for children from the poorest backgrounds through a year, two in every five participants returned immediately pupil premium and of ensuring that extra funds follow back to benefits. That cannot be good. Fully one third those pupils to the school that educates them, would of the participants in the new deal for young people mean that wherever they go to school, disadvantaged have been on the programme at least once before, and children would have the extra support that they need. 50,000 new deal participants have been on it four or We also need to target deprived schools, which can more times. For them, the new deal offers a constant become ghettos of disillusionment for many who have way of life rather than a stepping stone to improve their untapped talents to succeed in life—a point admirably opportunities. made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne Welfare requires radical reform if it is to begin to be a (Mr. Walker). More money in deprived schools would tool of personal progress and advancement rather than pay for higher-quality teaching and ensure that help is a constant crutch. Every claimant able to work should targeted to where it is needed most. The Sutton Trust be engaged in full-time activity as part of their back-to-work has found that the association between adults’ education process, including mandatory community work for the and that of their children is stronger in Britain than in long-term unemployed. We also need much tougher 1013 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1014

[Mr. Brooks Newmark] of their birth. Behind that change has been a rise in educational inequality. Young people from the poorest sanctions for those not willing to return to work. Private income groups increased their graduation rate by just providers of welfare-to-work services should have the 3 percentage points between 1981 and the late 1990s, freedom to innovate and think outside the box, and be compared with a rise of some 26 per cent. for those paid by the results they achieve. from the richest 20 per cent. of families. The clear It seems that the Prime Minister, who describes himself as conclusion reached by the authors of the Sutton Trust’s report was that “a child of the first great wave of post-war social mobility”, has forgotten where he came from. Under his Government, “the expansion of higher education in the UK has benefited those social mobility has stalled. Today we have a culture in from richer backgrounds far more than poorer young people.” which poverty of hope and poverty of aspiration still It is still more dispiriting, as my hon. Friend the prevail. No child should be held back by their background. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) noted, that a raft of We need as a matter of urgency both education reform Government measures and a deluge of spin seem not to and welfare reform, to ensure that we bring about the have made much difference, as a recent Cabinet Office necessary change in our society so that every child report was forced to conclude. As has already been and teenager can aspire to, and achieve, their life’s quoted, it stated: dreams. “Broadly, social mobility is no greater or less since 1970”. 4.30 pm The latest statistics, released just last week, showed that Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) the number of undergraduates from lower social and (Con): I am delighted to take part in this debate on this economic groups was actually falling. If we failed to important subject. Like the right hon. Member for expand opportunities when the economy was booming, Darlington (Mr. Milburn), I am a beneficiary of the how can we possibly do so when 100,000 people every social mobility available to those born in 1958. I am month are losing their jobs? delighted to participate, even though it means missing my youngest son Edward’s fifth birthday party. With I am not an adherent of laissez-faire. Indeed, as many your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall wish hon. Members know, I am not a liberal of any kind. I Edward a happy birthday on behalf of you and the believe that Governments can and do make a positive whole House. difference, and, like the right hon. Member for Darlington, I believe that they have a responsibility to do just that. Education changes life chances, because the skills and knowledge that people acquire through learning Governments can influence people’s lives; they can give them the chance to prosper. More eloquently, one change people’s lives for the better by laying the foundations of my heroes, John Ruskin, said: for a stronger, broader-based economy and social order, “Education is the leading of human souls to what is best, and in which people can move more straightforwardly. To making what is best out of them”. do that, we must give people the opportunity to study, Even before the recession began to bite, we were failing to acquire skills and improve their chances to change to help too many people do their best and be the best their lives. Critically, we must give them the wherewithal that they could be. to do that; wherewithal, not lack of ambition, is the problem. Although the Minister for Higher Education We should go further than the right hon. Gentleman and Intellectual Property and I agree about much, I suggested. It is not enough to redistribute opportunity; think that we probably disagree about that, in nuance if we must redistribute advantage. The uncomfortable truth not in substance. I am being as generous as I can, but I is that we have not done enough to expand access to the shall doubtless hear more about that when he sums up. professions, partly because we have not done enough to The critical point about wherewithal is providing the extend access to higher education. Opportunity for right sort of quality advice and guidance, a subject to some has not led to opportunity for all. The reason why which I shall revert shortly and about which my hon. I described the expansion of the education sector as Friend the Member for Havant spoke so eloquently. having cemented social division is that our failure to expand opportunities for those from under-represented However, we must also rethink our perception of groups, who do not typically tend to get to university, study. Instead of forcing people to fit the education coupled with graduate recruitment into the professions, system, we must make the education and training system has meant that the less advantaged, cut adrift, see fit people’s lives. We will not broaden access to higher opportunity drifting away from them. education as long as we think that the full-time, three-year In 2005, as my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree university degree is the only or the best way in which to (Mr. Newmark) pointed out, the Sutton Trust pointed study. Woody Allen—you did not expect to hear from out that people born in 1970 were less likely to have him today, Madam Deputy Speaker—once said that moved between social classes than those born in the mutual year of birth of the right hon. Member for “80 per cent. of success is showing up”. Darlington and myself, 1958. As my hon. Friend the However, people need to know where to show up. shadow Secretary of State said in his opening remarks, Wherewithal, not aspiration, is lacking. There are high the problem has been exacerbated rather than countered ambitions, but low expectations. People aspire to much by public policy assumptions—over the lifetime of more because they know that more skilling, training and than one Government. education is likely to help them prosper, but they do not In the space of 12 years, a child born into poverty has expect to achieve that because they know too that most become less likely, not more, to escape the consequences of their fellows do not. 1015 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1016

It is important to provide people with the information and distance learning. Through changed modes of learning, they need to decide when, where and how to fulfil their we can change the life chances of thousands of potential ambitions. We should deliver higher education at a students. We can and must build bridges between aspiration place, time and pace that meets people’s needs. We and HE admissions, achievement and social mobility. should recognise that increasing participation does not As community institutions, further education colleges apply only to 18 to 30-year-olds but the whole of our have a vital role to play in building those bridges, but at society. present, there are too many barriers to education of all Recent Department for Innovation, Universities and types and at all levels. Skills research on social mobility—I am not sure whether Twelve years ago, the late Lord Dearing concluded in it is rather vulgar now to mention DIUS, but I will his review that much greater flexibility in HE provision anyway—suggests that there is was vital to widening participation. His review found “strong evidence of significant returns to degree-level qualifications that gained in later life.” “a major limitation of the UK system of higher education is that Yet the number of first-time mature entrants to HE students are offered just one contest—they must clear the ‘high from all social classes is falling. Lifelong learning provision jump’ of the three/four year honours degree, or fail”. in higher education is being decimated by the Government’s Yet the system has not become flexible in the way that misguided decision to cut funding for equivalent level Dearing envisioned. If an American leaves university qualifications. before finishing a full degree, they will describe themselves Last month, a report warned that adult education in as having studied one, two or three years at college, HE is implying that they will return to complete their studies “on the verge of extinction”, later. If someone leaves university or college early in the with the universities of Bath, Birmingham, Bournemouth, UK, they are branded a drop-out. There could not be a Bristol, Durham, Exeter, Leeds, Leicester, Manchester, greater difference between taking a break and dropping Newcastle, Southampton and Surrey all scaling back or out. However, research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shutting their lifelong learning departments. As hon. confirms that most working-class students who leave Members know—I say “Members”, and as I look around, college or university early gain skills, confidence and I see the press release emanating from my office: “Hayes life experience from their time there and, most interestingly galvanises packed House!”—the National Institute of of all, that the majority re-enter higher education later. Adult Continuing Education has pointed out repeatedly Dearing’s vision of a transferable credit-based framework that approximately 1.3 million adult learning places has yet to be properly realised, however. He recommended have been lost. Yet people often find their way back to that learning through non-accredited study, for example, “a major part of future expansion should be at sub-degree women returners, people without a previous successful level…provided in both higher and further education institutions.” history of learning, mature learners and disadvantaged learners, such as people with special needs and disabled FE colleges are uniquely placed to serve those whose learners, whom my hon. Friend the Member for lives do not fit traditional forms of university learning, Buckingham (John Bercow) mentioned at the beginning because those colleges are characterised by localness, of the debate. accessibility and flexibility. Their proximity to non- Lifelong learning provision, the loss of which I lament, traditional students’ homes, workplaces and previous is critical because it directly affects people such as those learning experiences enables them to have an easy reach not in education, employment or training. We discussed to the under-represented. However, enrolments for HE NEETs at the beginning of the debate, but they got and FE have declined and are below their 2001-02 level. scant mention subsequently. However, there is a lot to Colleges are often prevented from responding to the discuss, so I understand that. All the evidence suggests communities that they serve because of the byzantine that young people not in education, employment or bureaucracy that they face—recognised some years ago, training are more likely to find their way back into all of in a report commissioned by the Government and written them by taking small steps on the road to learning. Yet by Andrew Foster. He said that the the lack of availability of adult community learning means that they cannot take that first step back into “galaxy of oversight, inspection and accreditation bodies” education. was diverting staff, managers and teachers from their To broaden access we need to challenge prejudices proper purpose. Rather than reducing the bureaucracy about higher education. The rhythms and structures of in further education, the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children campus culture are often simply unsuitable for the and Learning Bill, which has wended its way through needs of the under-represented. The ingrained pattern this House and is currently being debated in the other of low participation in some neighbourhoods and among place, adds to it. The Bill, which has been described as certain social groups requires solutions sympathetic to “obscure”, “opaque” and “obtuse”, creates three new the lives of different types of learners. The hon. Member bodies with a role in further education. For all its faults, for Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott) mentioned child the Learning and Skills Council was a bit like the red care in that context, and I agree with her. Full-time army: expensive and big, but at least it was predictable. study is difficult for those who work or have families. The new bodies are more Byzantium. The financial burden of living away from home is heavy Another recent report by DIUS found that for those from low-income groups. “the UK is not doing enough to provide a more or less complete We must recognise that different lifestyles necessitate online educational experience to students who, for a variety of different learning experiences, with more emphasis on reasons…cannot enjoy a conventional campus based learning part-time courses, community-based learning and modular experience.” 1017 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1018

[Mr. John Hayes] place and at a particular time, we should be opening up provision and valuing different forms of lifelong learning. As a nation, we surely cannot afford to fall behind in Instead of strangling further education with ever more e-learning or other forms of distance learning. I commend red tape, we should dismantle the bureaucracy and trust the work of the Open university, which has led the way colleges to manage their own affairs. And we should in that area, and where I was speaking just this morning. trust learners to make their own decisions, supported by Opportunity is not enough, however. I repeat that the the kind of dedicated professional advice and guidance wherewithal is critical as well. Too often, young people that I have recommended. in particular do not get the advice and guidance that All with stout hearts and sharp minds should have they need to turn their ambitions into reality. The their chance of glittering prizes, should they not? Learning Chairman of the Select Committee on Children, Schools drives social mobility, and the inequalities implicit in a and Families made that clear in a brief intervention, free society can be ethically legitimised only in a social and my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and the order that allows people to prosper, no matter where right hon. Member for Darlington also highlighted the they began. point. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne By abolishing the careers service for young people (Mr. Walker) said that this was an important debate on and replacing it with Connexions, which provides support a vital subject. Like him, I am pleased, proud and also on issues ranging from housing to drugs and privileged to take part in such a debate. Surely we want sexual health, the Government have undermined the to create a society for which each plays their part, and professionalism of careers advisers. In two thirds of of which all can feel proud, a nation in which disadvantage schools in England, careers advice is given by staff is fought and advantage is spread—a Britain that stands without any formal qualifications in the subject. Two tall when it is socially cohesive because it is socially years ago, a House of Lords report concluded that mobile and socially just because it is both of them. To young people were not being given the information that instil Britons with confidence, politicians must be confident they needed to access apprenticeships. A recent study enough to be bold. We need nothing less; and nothing found that 31 per cent. of young people felt that they less than that is right. were not getting enough information about going to university. We heard today from the right hon. Member 4.50 pm for Darlington that 70 per cent. of young people in a particular survey said that they had had no careers The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual advice at all. I can add to that: 94 per cent. said that Property (Mr. David Lammy): This has been a tough they needed better subject and careers information and few weeks for the House of Commons, but I think it support. right to say that this debate has seen the House at its This is why we are so fervently in favour of, a dedicated, very best. There are, of course, some political differences impartial, all-age careers and guidance service. Such a about the “how” aspects of much of what has been said, service should have a presence in every school and but the passion and eloquence with which Members college, as well as on the high street. Everyone should have made their case and shared their desire for social have access to universally recognised, community-based, mobility and greater access to the professions has been impartial advice and guidance about education and palpable. I am deeply honoured as a member of the career options. This applies not only to young people. Government to have witnessed this occasion. As an advanced economy, we have a continuing need to It is right to say that many hon. Members have a re-skill and up-skill in this recession, and advice for professional background. Much is often said about mature learners is also vital. barristers and lawyers more generally. Since Labour Education is the key to unlocking individual potential, came to power in 1997, however, the barristers have increasing employability, and building fuller lives for been outnumbered by the large number of teachers and individuals, which in turn helps us to construct a society lecturers on the Labour Benches. It is also right to say that works. Each of us must play our part, and feel that our numbers include doctors, architects and former proud because we are valued in a society that is socially senior members of the armed services. Although the mobile, cohesive and just. As a country, we led the Chamber has not been packed this afternoon, I know world into the industrial revolution. We also led the that many hon. Members will either have been watching world in the growth of the service sector. I believe that the debate in their offices or will read Hansard tomorrow we can now lead the world into a new economy, a and will agree with much of what has been said. 21st century economy in which the professions will It is my deep pleasure to pay tribute my right hon. become ever more important and ever more representative, Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn), who because people can find their way in those professions, is my very good friend. Back in 2002, it was a great no matter where they started from. honour when I received a call from the No. 10 switchboard It has been said by speakers across the Chamber and the operator asked me whether I would hold for the today that our economy will need people with high-level Prime Minister. I held—I have never met anyone who skills and the aptitude and ability to adapt quickly to has said that they would not hold for the Prime Minister— different roles and new challenges. We need an education and Tony Blair asked me to join the Government. I was system that is flexible enough to respond to these new very pleased to be made a junior Minister in the Department demands. Instead of becoming ever more prescriptive, of Health, which was then led by my right hon. Friend instructing and dictating, we must look and learn from the Member for Darlington. the best, trust those with a good track record and Many in the House will know that my right hon. evangelise to the rest. Instead of telling potential students Friend and I share similar backgrounds. He was raised that they must study in a particular way at a particular by a single mother on a council estate in county Durham, 1019 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1020 just as I was raised by a single mother in Tottenham. In Peckham (Ms Harman), 525 teenagers went to university a sense we have always shared a concern for social last year, compared with 185 in 1997. That is an increase mobility. He has had much to say about whether the of 184 per cent. In Dagenham, a part of London about opportunities he had then exist to the same extent today. which many of us express concern—especially following I am obviously not part of the 1958 generation; I am last week’s elections, when progress was made by the part of the 1970 generation. I experienced my secondary British National party—340 youngsters went to university schooling in the 1980s and university in the early ’90s. last year, compared with just 125 in 1997. That is an In that sense, I suspect I share much with the hon. increase of 172 per cent. That is down to the work of Member for Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott), who is schools connecting to universities. Over the past four or younger than me and who certainly—[Interruption.] If five years, we have learned what works. We know that I am not careful, I am going to get into trouble saying summer schools work and that universities, with buildings any more, but she looks very young indeed! that are available for so much of the summer, can make a considerable difference. As regards the evidence that the panel brought to bear on the cohort of young people coming through The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central mentioned the from the 1970s, I suppose I had reason to reflect on important role of parents, and their intervention is also being the exception rather than the rule. I was raised, as important. Manchester Metropolitan and Liverpool I said, in inner-city Tottenham—part of the country universities are extending their work not just with young that experienced serious social unrest in a period of its people in the schools around them, but with their history, arising from real problems experienced by its families and parents to lift those aspirations. In cities black and ethnic minority community—and I am acutely such as Sheffield or Liverpool, people have seen the aware of the community out of which I became a university as that place on the hill—an ivory tower; a Minister. place that is “not for me”. I commend the work of Aimhigher Associates, a recent programme involving Some of that was due to luck—the networks and the young people going back into schools to champion social concern that gathered around me, and the youth universities and, importantly, to help much younger workers, teachers, priests and others. Internships can people in primary school and early secondary understand provide jobs in the Easter and summer holidays, and the process. That goes back to the point about information, can give people their big break. I was fortunate enough—in careers and guidance. There is a need to understand the a sense—to be able to leave Tottenham and to be UCAS process. educated in Peterborough. I commend my right hon. Friend on a particular I was told by the vice-chancellor of Bristol university dimension of his work. He has not just examined socio- that many courses are less competitive, and that economic disadvantage—the disadvantage that still exists schoolchildren from independent schools understand for women and people with disabilities, especially those that and know to apply for courses that need slightly from poorer backgrounds. He has also been keen to lower grades. However, that knowledge was not present examine geography. We forget how many professions in the state sector. It is now coming in because the are centred largely on our major cities, particularly the associates—those young people who applied a few years city of London. That is certainly true of my profession, ago—have conveyed it to young people. the Bar, but many of our senior doctors and architects We need to extend the work and recognise that there are also part of what has historically been a metropolitan are parts of the country where university is a long way elite. Those who grow up in suburban Peterborough, away. We must spread networks, which is what we have Swindon or Basingstoke, or much further afield—further done through the National Council for Educational north, perhaps, in towns such as Middlesbrough—will Excellence and the work of Professor Steve Smith, the find it extremely difficult to gain access to the networks vice-chancellor of Exeter university, who was able to that I have described. I look forward to learning from show that every university now has a policy programme my right hon. Friend’s report how such opportunities on widening participation. The vast majority of universities can be provided, but I know that internships are part of are offering summer schools and all are working with the answer. schools in their local neighbourhoods. There is much Both the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) and more to do, but the programme is in place and the the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central pointed out that evidence base is there. university was a key element of the necessary journey. With regard to the panel, it is my real hope that we Although I wish that the progress that we have made will be able not just to have a conversation about what over the past 10 years had been even greater—I think Government, universities and schools can do but about that all hon. Members share that wish—I hope that what the Government, with our expertise, can do in Opposition Members in particular agree that the Aimhigher greater partnership with the professions. All of us will programme has made an important difference. This recognise that it can frustrating when a particular week we are celebrating the work of Aimhigher profession—one has been mentioned several times today—is co-ordinators and associates. way behind others because best practice has not filtered “Westminster Constituency Profiles”, which is available through. Part of the panel’s work will help us to move from the House of Commons Library, shows that huge to a benchmark of standards for professions learning progress has been made in nearly every constituency in from one another so that we can make the advance that terms of the participation rates among young people at is needed. universities, and that real progress has been made in The debate is hugely important for our wider economy— those among young people from poorer socio-economic although it is, of course, taking place at a difficult time backgrounds. For instance, in the south London for the economy. There has been, and will continue to constituency of the Leader of the House, my right hon. be, a substantial rise in the number of professional and and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and managerial positions in the UK—from one in 13 at the 1021 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1022

[Mr. David Lammy] schools and independent schools is slightly unfair. The cohort and the backgrounds of children who go to turn of the century to one in three now, and with the independent schools mean that one pays one’s money prospect of still further progress over the next decade to and the return is university.The cohort and the backgrounds 2020. Some studies suggest that up to 7 million new of young people in state schools are more complex. The professionals will be needed by 2020, and that does not challenges, and defining what success is for teachers, even take into account some of the new professions. particularly in state schools, make that picture and the The digital economy will be important to our future. job of providing information, advice and guidance much We also know that our future has to be sustainable, and more complex. For that reason we introduced the the renewables debate is particularly important in that Connexions service, which has been particularly helpful regard. Technology and engineering are central to our for the most vulnerable young people in its ability to economic future as well, as are the life sciences. All connect up information about not only careers, but those emerging sectors will provide new professions sexual health, drug addiction and other things. We must that we will want to ensure all our young people are able take a hard look at how to move forward on information, to access. advice and guidance as we progress to this new landscape The labour market’s requirement for ever higher skills where local authorities are in the driving seat. and knowledge will place new pressures on teachers not A number of issues are emerging from the work that only in schools, but in further and higher education. We my Department was doing with the DCSF.We recognised also must not forget that the average age in this country that teacher attitude is important and that many teachers is rising, so there will be retirements to consider, and we have not experienced our most competitive universities. must ensure that people of a broad age range can access A few weeks ago, I asked people from Oxford university the jobs. There is, therefore, an economic case for the to come to my constituency to meet head teachers and huge importance of this subject, and there is also a principals of the local college and the local education social justice case, which was eloquently put by my right authority. I did so because we are still yet to send a hon. Friend the Member for Darlington. young person from a Tottenham school to Oxford. The I hope that it is not controversial to suggest that the teachers were asking what an Oxford pupil looks like history of this country has largely been an elitist one. In and what the standard was, because more information the 19th and much of the 20th centuries we could get on that needs to be available if our teachers are to help. away with that because of our manufacturing economic The discussion has been very meaningful and a work base. Few people went to university, and skilled jobs programme has been put together, but it illustrates that were available in manufacturing and in industries such teacher attitude and access to better information will be as shipbuilding and coal mining, and also in agriculture, very important. with its heritage of the market towns that there still are It is also important to recognise that many schools—often in some Members’ constituencies. That will not be the those in the most deprived areas—are schools for those right prescription going forward, however. We cannot aged 10 to 16. In a sense, it is understandable that, as we be content with such a situation. We must recognise that have been driving up standards to the extent where talent exists in all places and ensure that everyone has 46 per cent. of young people get five good GCSEs these opportunities, and the politics and public policy including English and Maths, the emphasis has been on to support that must also be put in place. standards. We need to ensure that the progression routes The hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) was beyond GCSE and A-level, particularly those into the right to point to Harvard’s ability to access young labour market and higher education, are better understood. people from the very poorest parts of America. I recall This new strategy is not just about schools; it is also that when I was at Harvard it was the most diverse about further education, and information, advice and institution I had studied at other than my primary guidance, particularly that provided between higher school in Tottenham, and there must be more that we education and further education. The hon. Member for can do in that regard. There are complications in this South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) and I picture, however. It is probably right to say that in have had much to say over the years about advice on America the discourse around African-American apprenticeships, and I hope that the Bill that passed disadvantage in particular has resulted in an advance in through this House last year will mean that that will get institutions such as Harvard, but I am sure the hon. better, but in FE issues have been raised about the Gentleman will recognise that there are significant issues advice to all of our universities. in respect of “the white working-class American”, who is, perhaps, not as greatly represented in institutions Mr. Willetts: I am sure that the Minister has looked such as Harvard. This points to a wider debate that goes at the evidence—I believe that the right hon. Member back to the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) referred to this—from the for Darlington made about the data on socio-economic Futuretrack report on applying for higher education, disadvantage, and I look forward to learning what his which presented findings from a survey of the class of report has to say about that. 2006. It shows shocking ignorance about the options; a Hon. Members have also had much to say about lot of people said that they wished that they had had information, advice and guidance—that has been the access to advice. What people particularly want—this is common theme of most contributions. I am pleased what hon. Members on both sides of the House were that I have been able to work with colleagues in the calling for—is professional careers advice from a distinctive Department for Children, Schools and Families and careers service. For whatever reason, that is what has that it will shortly publish a new strategy on careers been lost from view with the creation of Connexions. I advice for schools. The picture there is complex; it is wonder whether the Minister could say something to right to say that the straight comparison between state recognise the case made by those on both sides of the 1023 Social Mobility and the Professions11 JUNE 2009 Social Mobility and the Professions 1024

House today in support of that initiative: the provision ensuring that we see a flowering of internships in that of independent careers advice that cuts across ages and city, so that they are available to young people in the would cover schools, FE and wider matters. I hope that north-west. we might hear more from him on that crucial initiative. Much has also been said, especially by the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, about Mr. Lammy: I recognise the description that the hon. informal adult learning. We have had that discussion Gentleman gives. However, I shall not anticipate the many times in this place, and I hope that he will report that will be published shortly by my colleagues in recognise the work of my right hon. Friend the Member the Department for Children, Schools and Families, for Southampton, Itchen in the recent White Paper, who will address these issues in their strategy. Nor do I “The Learning Revolution”, which was published only wish to anticipate the work of my right hon. Friend the in March, and the new fund of £20 million to help to Member for Darlington, who would have something to garner cross-sector projects in that area. There is also say about that. I recognise the issue, and as the Minister an existing £210 million budget, so people should not with responsibility for higher education, I might be get the impression that no learning for learning’s sake is expected to be very keen to ensure that young people happening across the country. Of course it is, and it is understand the opportunities that exist. funded not only by my Department, but by the Department Much has also been said about internships. These are of Health and the Department for Children, Schools critical and important, and that is why my right hon. and Families. My colleagues in the Department for Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) Communities and Local Government fund lots of activities was keen when Secretary of State for Innovation, in many areas—in particular, they are aimed at achieving Universities and Skills to ensure in this difficult time social cohesion—to keep the informal adult learning that the Government do all that they can to galvanise going. the country to offer more internships to young people The work that was set up by the Prime Minister in as they graduate this summer and into the autumn. I January, which has been taken forward so well by my am pleased that we have seen firms such as Network right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington, is hugely Rail, Channel Four, Abbey and Microsoft and the important. It has been a great pleasure to hear the police and others indicating that they will offer internships warmth with which the House has commended that for young people. work and with which it looks forward to my his report Many organisations have described their internships later in the summer. Of course, we will have differences as what some of us might call work placements— about how to do such work. The Government, in particular, opportunities within a degree course. Our aim has been are concerned about any proposals for cuts that might to galvanise that attention to life after graduation. lead to problems with apprentices and with routes beyond Employers are coming on board, and the hon. Member school. I hope that the hon. Member for Havant will for Havant is right to say that we are offering the make the case within the Opposition to ensure that the graduate talent pool website. We have put money behind funding is there to increase social mobility. that and the Government’s role is to co-ordinate and I am grateful to have taken part in this debate. I galvanise it. Our efforts must last not just through commend the work that has gone on and thank all the September but into next year and beyond as different panel members and the civil servants in the Cabinet employers seek to offer opportunities for young people Office for all that they are doing. This work will make a that will last for different periods. Whether for three huge difference for many young people and adults months or six months, young people will have the across this country. It is a tribute to the best that can opportunity to obtain the skills that will put them in a come from the House of Commons and the metropolitan stronger position to gain permanent employment. elite here in London. The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central mentioned Question put and agreed to. apprenticeships in this place, and it is important to Resolved, provide opportunities for those who live way outside That this House has considered the matter of social mobility London. That is why I was in Manchester last week, and fair access to the professions. 1025 11 JUNE 2009 Giles Carlyle-Clarke 1026

Giles Carlyle-Clarke As I said at the time of the previous debate, the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House decision is unprecedented, as it seems to ignore article 6 do now adjourn.—(Ms Butler.) of the European convention on human rights, which states that everyone is entitled to a 5.22 pm “fair and public hearing within a reasonable time”. Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): I am very The Americans had not given credible evidence that my grateful for the opportunity to raise again in the House constituent should be extradited. Their evidence was the case of my constituent, Mr. Giles Carlyle-Clarke. It based on statements made by hardened criminals as will probably be helpful if I provide a little background part of their own plea-bargaining deals. In fact, Mr. Joel to this case, which I think concerns a serious question of Cohen, a former US district attorney, said: human rights. It is also no coincidence that most of the “In my opinion, the methods employed by the Government of extradition cases that find themselves being discussed the US through their Agent Baker and others in obtaining these on the Floor of this House concern extradition to the three affidavits were not only quite wrong, but rose to the level of United States. egregious misconduct.” By way of background, I should tell the House that He also said that the effect of the American authorities’ my constituent, Giles Carlyle-Clarke, was extradited to actions had been the United States in 2006. He has served a short prison sentence in the US and is now living back in the United “effectively to destroy the fairness of any trial that Mr. Carlyle- Kingdom. It will be recalled that there was an Adjournment Clarke may face.” debate on the case in this House on 24 March 2005, However, evidence has come to light since my which can be found at column 1095 in Hansard. The constituent’s extradition to the US that shows that, at then Under-Secretary of State at the Home Office, the the very least, the US authorities misled the Home right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), Office and, by extension, the judicial review conducted who is now unemployed— by Mr. Justice Pitchford in November 2004. Perhaps more worryingly, though, the British Government failed, The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil either intentionally or unintentionally, to acknowledge Woolas): She is working. She is still an MP. that they knew that the American evidence was wrong. Mr. Walter: She is still an MP, of course. On that Prior to his extradition, Mr. Carlyle-Clarke had lived occasion, she was reluctant to respond and it is also true and travelled openly, and that included visiting the US that she sought Mr. Speaker’s assistance in trying to in the period since the alleged crimes had taken place. rule the debate out of order on the basis that it might be Moreover, until his conviction, he had a clean criminal sub judice. Mr. Speaker supported my position and the record. debate went ahead, although the Minister was still reluctant to give answers to some of the questions that I Central to the American authorities’ case was their raised. I know that she had reservations because she felt claim that they did not know where Mr. Carlyle-Clarke that she may have been operating in a quasi-judicial was until the end of the 1990s. At the time of the earlier role. However, I believe that she was responsible to debate, new evidence before the Minister proved that Parliament for the decisions that had been made, and the American authorities had in fact known his identity that it was therefore appropriate that those decisions since 1988, and that they had known of his whereabouts should be questioned here in the House. since 1989. In fact, he had served a sworn affidavit on the American authorities in 1989 in which he gave the The subject of this debate is the process behind the address in Dorset in my constituency where he had extradition of my constituent Mr. Giles Carlyle-Clarke. continued to live. He now lives there again, and I have He was wanted by the US Government in relation to seen a copy of that document. four charges involving the smuggling of cannabis into the US, and the possession of cannabis there, between The basis of the case that I made at the time was that 1983 and 1988. The charges therefore related to events Giles Carlyle-Clarke’s lawyers had made a new submission that took place more than 20 years ago. to the Home Office based on dramatic new evidence Mr. Carlyle-Clarke was extradited to the US in 2005, that had recently emerged in the US. His lawyers believed and I do not intend to deal with the case itself, but it is a that that new evidence meant that the Home Office had matter of record that, in November 2006, in what I to reverse its decision to permit his extradition to the think is described as a plea bargain, Mr. Carlyle-Clarke United States of America, as the Home Office decision pleaded guilty to charges of drug smuggling. In February made in 2004 was based on information that turned out 2007, he was sentenced to three years in prison. As I to have been untrue. said earlier, he has now been released and is back in That new evidence revealed that the US authorities the UK. had, in fact, misled the Home Office. They claimed that The case that I put to the Minister at the time of the they had no photographic means of identifying Giles earlier debate was simple, and it has not changed. To Carlyle-Clarke until 1995. As he had claimed all along, extradite an individual for alleged crimes that the authorities and as was confirmed, the US authorities had a photo claim took place between 17 and 22 years previously is of him as long ago as May 1998. I have seen a copy of unjust and oppressive, when that individual has been that photograph, which was acquired from the state’s living openly and not as a fugitive from justice. He and attorney in the US. Accordingly, I claimed in the 2005 his family have lived at the same address for several debate that the US authorities’ reason for delay in hundred years, and he had given that address as his extraditing Giles Carlyle-Clarke lacked any credibility. I principal residence for at least the 26 years previous to further asserted that there seemed to be no explanation the case being heard. for the US authorities’ delay in applying for the extradition 1027 Giles Carlyle-Clarke11 JUNE 2009 Giles Carlyle-Clarke 1028 of Giles Carlyle-Clarke until 1998 for alleged crimes I have a copy of a three-page United States Drug committed between 17 and 22 years previously when Enforcement Agency investigation report, dated 30 January they knew of his identity in 1988 and knew his address 1987. That, along with several other relevant documents, in 1989. were made available to Mr. Carlyle-Clarke’s US lawyers In their new submission to the Home Office, Giles in July 2006—after his extradition but before his trial. Carlyle-Clarke’s lawyers also requested, under the Freedom The document relates to a drug seizure off the coast of of Information Act 2000, that the Home Office release Mexico and refers to my constituency as “Giles”, but, in full its correspondence with the US authorities on the more importantly, it identifies him as the owner of two case. I had also written to a Minister to make the same vessels, including Can Can, which was the vessel involved request. In the 2005 debate, the then Under-Secretary, in the charges on which Mr. Carlyle-Clarke was convicted. the right hon. Member for Don Valley, responded: The report gave the vessel’s location as St. Petersburg, Florida, which is within the United States’ jurisdiction, “The request is being considered under the freedom of information procedures, but questions to do with international relations require and also identified it as a British-registered vessel, although further analysis before we respond, which we are trying to do as I think that the phrase used was “flying an English quickly as possible. There is nothing sinister about that: it is flag”. The vessel was on the British Small Ships Register, simply a question of respecting legal confidences between states.”— and any inquirer would have had access to the owner’s [Official Report, 24 March 2005; Vol. 432, c. 1100.] name and address. That is, it was a diplomatic nicety. In the light of the The second document, another DEA investigation further evidence that has been revealed, I do not regard report, dated 11 September 1990, is particularly relevant that as a satisfactory defence. to the US and British Governments. By that date, both I do not wish to dwell too long on the evidence that I Giles Carlyle-Clarke and his yacht, The Can Can of highlighted in 2005, save to repeat that Mr. Jefferson Arne, to give it its full name, had acquired a DEA Dean, a US lawyer who had been retained by Mr. Carlyle- NADDIS file number. NADDIS stands for Narcotics Clarke, discovered that a photograph of Mr. Carlyle-Clarke and Dangerous Drugs Information System, and it is had been in the US authorities’ possession since 1988, well known that Drug Enforcement Agency suspects not 1995 as they had previously asserted. In addition, as have such file numbers. That September 1990 report I have said, Giles Carlyle-Clarke signed a sworn affidavit clearly shows that HM Customs was working with the that was served on the US authorities and gave his US Drug Enforcement Agency in the surveillance of home address in 1989. The US authorities had therefore Mr. Carlyle-Clarke and his yacht. Both agencies were been able to identify Giles Carlyle-Clarke, and had clearly convinced that the vessel was being used for drug known of his whereabouts, since 1988. smuggling, and the British authorities suspected that it During a period of over six years between 1998 and was being used to transport drugs to the United Kingdom. Mr Carlyle-Clarke’s extradition in 2005, the legal process That document confirms not only that agencies of both in this country required the then Home Secretary to Governments were watching Mr. Carlyle-Clarke, but consider the representations of both the US authorities the ownership of the vessel, which, although not specifically and Mr. Carlyle-Clarke on the question of delay. However, stated in the report, would have confirmed Mr. Carlyle- the Home Secretary at the time persistently rejected Clarke’s home address, and that of his mother, who also Mr. Carlyle-Clarke’s version of events. In November at one stage owned the yacht. 2004, he was informed of the Home Secretary’s decision The key point, however, is that the final decision on to extradite him to the United States. Also in November the application by the United States Department of 2004, Mr. Justice Pitchford held in the High Court that Justice for the extradition of Giles Carlyle-Clarke relied the Home Secretary was fully entitled to find, on the upon the submissions of the Alabama district attorney, basis of the evidence before him, that the US authorities David York, and the letter of his assistant, Gloria did not come into possession of the photograph until Bedwell, dated 25 February 2005. In it, she states quite 1995 or thereafter, and that Mr. Carlyle-Clarke’s defence categorically. team was wrong to suggest that there was any evidence “The truth is that we did not know who Clarke was or where he to the contrary. was until after Agent Baker got the information from the United As Mr. Carlyle-Clarke’s lawyers had not expected Kingdom in 1995. Period.” that interpretation of the evidence, they decided to It is a rather gruff way to write a letter but, none the instruct a US-based attorney, Mr. Jeffrey Dean, with a less, that is how it was put. specific brief to find out what the truth was. During his I stated at the time of the previous debate that it was, investigation, Jeffrey Dean discovered the new evidence to use a legal phrase, unjust and oppressive, by reason that I referred to at the time. of the passage of time, for Giles Carlyle-Clarke to be It might be considered odd that a Member of Parliament extradited to the US. I understand, and I made this should, after a constituent has served a prison term on point at the time, from leading Queen’s counsel who drug-smuggling charges—charges to which he pleaded specialise in this area of the law that if the case related guilty—again bring the case to the attention of the to an extradition between Commonwealth countries, it House. I do so not only because the earlier evidence would be held to be unjust on the basis of Mr. Carlyle- points to an unfair and inhumane extradition, but Clarke’s inability to deal with events so distant in the because more evidence, which was made available at the past, and oppressive because he has lived a new and time of the trial by the US prosecuting authorities, blameless life in the intervening period. The Home shows that there was clear evidence that the Government Secretary of the time and Mr. Justice Pitchford accepted of the United States and Her Majesty’s Government that there had been what could be described as a had not only identified Giles Carlyle-Clarke, but were questionable delay, but it is now clear that they both working together on the surveillance of his activities as relied on the United States Department of Justice evidence early as 1987. to which I have just referred: evidence that the United 1029 Giles Carlyle-Clarke11 JUNE 2009 Giles Carlyle-Clarke 1030

[Mr. Walter] However, I was not clear from his speech whether the letter to the Minister was a recent one or whether it was States authorities could not identify or locate my constituent the letter written on the previous occasion. Similarly, I until 10 years after the event. For reasons that have am not clear whether the freedom of information request never been made clear, the proceedings for his extradition that he referred to was recent or related back to the and eventual trial took another seven years to conclude. previous situation. Will the hon. Gentleman help me That evidence—or lack of it—must now be described on that? as both misleading and deficient. There is now indisputable evidence that the United States authorities knew all Mr. Walter: I am very willing to help. None of the along who Giles Carlyle-Clarke was. They knew that he correspondence to which I referred relates to recent was the registered owner of the yacht involved in the events; it all relates to matters that took place before the offences; they had photographs of him dating from extradition. 1988 and a sworn affidavit that he had lodged in an associated case in 1989. All that evidence was available Mr. Woolas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that to the Home Secretary before his extradition. However, clarification; I am sorry that I did not catch it properly the Home Secretary chose to rely on the assistant at the start. Let me come back to that in a moment. district attorney’s statement that the authorities did not I can confirm that the hon. Gentleman’s constituent, know who Mr. Carlyle-Clarke was until 1995, although Mr. Carlyle-Clarke, was extradited to the United States they still took until 1999 to seek his extradition. in July 2006 to face charges concerning the importation Documents are now available showing that the Drugs and possible distribution of marijuana. The charges Enforcement Agency, the US Government agency involved the smuggling into the United States, in the responsible for collecting the evidence in drugs cases, years 1986 and 1987, of several thousand pounds in had identified my constituent as early as 1987. Its weight of marijuana. He was alleged to have co-ordinated representatives knew who he was. They knew the registration the delivery and distribution of a further quantity of details of his yacht, and therefore his address and the drugs in Alabama in 1988. I think that the hon. Gentleman location of his yacht—and therefore probably his is in agreement on those facts. whereabouts in September 1990. Not only that, but the I understand that following the extradition in 2006, British agency responsible for guarding our borders the case was heard in 2007. Mr. Carlyle-Clarke was against such activity—Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise, legally represented at the proceedings in the United as it was then known—also knew all that information, States and, as has been described, pleaded guilty to the and was working with the United States authorities in charge put to him, and was sentenced in February 2007 pursuing my constituent and his then alleged drug to three years’ imprisonment in the US. As was his smuggling activities. right, he applied to be transferred to the UK to serve That all begs the question whether when the Home the remainder of the sentence in a prison here. He was Office refused to respond to my and Mr. Carlyle-Clarke’s transferred in July 2008, and released from UK custody lawyers’ requests under the Freedom of Information in October 2008. I understand that he was on licence Act, it was not protecting some diplomatically sensitive until May 2009; he is now no longer subject to any material. It begs the question whether the Home Office licence conditions. was concerned that it would be revealed that Her Majesty’s The extradition proceedings, which are what the hon. Government knew that the statements given by US Gentleman is concerned about, are of course long officials were untrue, that both Governments had full concluded, but I may be of assistance in giving the knowledge of Carlyle-Clarke’s activities as early as 1987 House a summary of those proceedings. Mr. Carlyle-Clarke and that they therefore could not substantiate the claim fought extradition for several years, and the case was that the extradition had been delayed because of a lack considered at all stages of the process. An arrest warrant of knowledge about his identity and whereabouts. was first granted against him by the district court in I am not a lawyer, but I can tell when a citizen has Alabama in 1992. Under the terms of the Extradition been unfairly dealt with by Ministers and the courts. Act 1989, which was in operation at that time, he was Although Mr. Carlyle-Clarke pleaded guilty to the original provisionally arrested for extradition on 9 January 1998, crimes and has served his sentence in prison, it still and remanded on bail. On 4 January 1999, he was remains the case that the procedures surrounding his committed at Bow street magistrates court to await the deportation could not be described as representative of Secretary of State’s decision as to his return, a prima justice. Those procedures were an affront to my constituent’s facie case having been found against him based on human rights, and I believe that he is owed an apology documentary evidence and witness statements. He then by both Governments for an extradition that he believes applied for habeas corpus, but withdrew from that line was obtained by deception. I expect nothing less than of legal challenge on 10 November 1999. that apology from the Minister this evening. Under the 1989 Act, the case then fell to the then Secretary of State, to decide whether to make an order 5.43 pm for Mr Carlyle-Clarke’s return. Mr. Carlyle-Clarke was The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil advised that he had the right to make representations by Woolas): Congratulations are due to the hon. Member 2 December 1999 against that surrender. Under the for North Dorset (Mr. Walter) for raising this issue. As procedures of the 1989 Act, in making such a decision he said, he raised it in a previous debate on 24 March as to surrender, the Secretary of State had to take into 2005, and I was aware of that as I prepared for this one. account not only statutory restrictions on return but, in I can respond to the hon. Gentleman’s speech through the exercise of his discretion, any other reason why it my knowledge of the background and through would be wrong, unjust or oppressive to order return. confirmation, where possible, of his account. The deadline for representations was subsequently extended, 1031 Giles Carlyle-Clarke11 JUNE 2009 Giles Carlyle-Clarke 1032 and they were received from Mr Carlyle-Clarke’s solicitors interfere in judicial proceedings in another jurisdiction—and on 13 December 1999 and on 1 February 2000. They to be fair, I should add that he has not suggested that we covered a wide range of matters. Inquiries were then should. It is not appropriate for me to comment even if, made of the US authorities, followed by a very careful as in this case, the proceedings have been concluded. consideration of the representations, including a review However, if he considers it appropriate, he could suggest of the case law cited in them. that his constituent bring any new evidence relating to In due course, an order for Mr Carlyle-Clarke’s surrender his involvement in the case to the attention of the was signed on 3 July 2002. The solicitors then requested relevant authorities in the USA, and seek advice from that they be allowed to make further representations, those who represented him. and this was agreed, taking into account all the I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that I cannot circumstances. Extensive further representations were respond this evening to the new evidence that he has received on a number of occasions, and further information brought before the House. He has asked for an apology, was received from the United States before reconsideration but I suggest that if he wishes to pursue the matter he of the case could be then completed. On 27 November could write to me, perhaps enclosing a copy of the 2003, the decision to surrender Mr Carlyle-Clarke was previous debate, of which I am now aware. We have the confirmed. Subsequently, the case came before the courts case file, of course. As I have said, it is impossible for me once more, and on 26 November 2004, the High Court or the Government to interfere in the judicial proceedings dismissed Mr Carlyle-Clarke’s application for judicial of another country, and I know that he respects that fact. review, rejecting all the arguments that had been advanced As for the implication that the UK Government were on his behalf. Again, fresh representations were placed either misled or complicit in misleading, either intentionally before the Secretary of State for consideration, but the or unintentionally, I would have to come back to the earlier decisions were upheld on 28 October 2005. hon. Gentleman on that. I would express to him the Another judicial review application was dismissed on view that it is very difficult for me to comment on 16 June 2006, with the Court ruling that the claimant specific cases—but that is not said with any intention of had got nowhere near establishing a case of a request blocking any request for information. He has done made in bad faith, and that a challenge on the basis of exactly the right thing on behalf of his constituent in the passage of time since the commission of the offences bringing the case to the Chamber of this House, so that did not avail him. An application to the European his constituent can have his case put through his MP. I Court of Human Rights was turned down on 29 June look forward to his correspondence if he feels that that 2006, and hence the extradition took place the following is the right way forward. I thank him, and I think that it month. I believe that the issues of fairness and is best if I leave it at that for this evening. proportionality were dealt with in the High Court case Question put and agreed to. on 16 June, and I have explained its ruling. This evening, the hon. Gentleman has explained new evidence about the case that he reports has since come 5.53 pm to light. As he knows, the UK Government cannot House adjourned.

303WH 11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 304WH

Witnesses painted an accurate picture of their personal Westminster Hall experiences of policing in the 21st century. We heard from Sir Norman Bettison, from the Association of Thursday 11 June 2009 Chief Police Officers, and from Paul McKeever, the chairman of the Police Federation. We also heard from constables on the beat and a custody sergeant. Far too [MR.HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] often, in Select Committee inquiries, we hear only from the top bods. In this sort of inquiry, however, it was Policing in the 21st Century important to look at the grass roots and the people on the front line of policing. We were pleased to see so [Relevant documents: Policing in the 21st Century: Seventh many of them, either at evidence sessions or at our Report from the Home Affairs Committee, Session 2007-08, stakeholder meetings. Since the report’s publication, I HC 364-I, and the Government’s response, Cm 7553.] have been approached by politicians, stakeholders, police Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting officers and victims of crime who found the report be now adjourned.—(Ms Butler.) refreshing and, in one view, essential reading on policing in this country. I hope that the Minister, even though he 2.30 pm was appointed only last Thursday, has had a chance to read it and that he shares its conclusions. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): It is a great pleasure The police service employs about 145,000 police officers, to be present on this occasion, with you in the Chair, 77,000 police staff, 16,000 police community support Mr. Williams. I am extremely grateful to the Liaison officers and 14,500 special constables. It is one of the Committee and to the House for allowing us to debate great institutions of our country and is essential to the the Home Affairs Committee’s seventh report of the make-up of our society. The aim of our inquiry was to last Session, which considered the subject of policing in establish the key challenges facing the police in the 21st the 21st century. The purpose of the debate is to discuss century and what we need to do to ensure that they are the issues raised in our inquiry, to consider developments equipped to meet them. That is set against a background since the report’s publication and to address the of dissatisfaction among the public with the police Government’s response. service and among many senior officers with the increasingly I welcome the new Home Office team, led by the new broad and unwieldy role that they are expected to fill. Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right During the inquiry, which ran from February to July hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West 2008, we considered the role of the police, particularly and Hessle (Alan Johnson). I also welcome the new their ability to deal with 21st century social trends, Minister who, I understand, has sought asylum from including alcohol-related crime; the effects of increased the Ministry of Justice in the calmer waters of Marsham immigration; their relationship with the public; funding; street. It is always a pleasure to take part in a debate how to increase effectiveness through reducing bureaucracy; with the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley), collaboration between forces; and making more use of who has spoken often and eloquently on policing matters police staff and other members of the work force. We on behalf of the Opposition. I also welcome the Liberal drew a number of conclusions. The number of Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Chesterfield responsibilities placed on the police service expanded (Paul Holmes). I am sure that we will be joined later by significantly in the late 20th century. It is now expected other right hon. and hon. Members. to deal with new dangers, such as internet-based child I pay tribute to the former Home Secretary, my right pornography and the terrorist threat, as well as tasks hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith), inherited from other organisations, such as victim support who did an excellent job. She was always willing to and monitoring sex offenders in the community. In the engage with the Select Committee on a range of issues, words of one police officer who gave evidence to us, is it especially policing, which is right at the top of our really their job to take lost dogs home? We called for a agenda. I also pay tribute to the former Minister for fundamental review of their role. policing, my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling In addition, pressure to meet quantitative Home Office (Mr. Coaker), who was very willing to engage with us targets has often caused officers to prioritise trivial and Members on both sides of the House on policing offences rather than dealing with the most serious crimes. issues. We wish them well on their chosen paths. We welcome the Government’s undertaking in the policing I and Committee members are immensely proud of Green Paper, which was published during our inquiry, our report. We decided to look in depth at policing, to replace top-down targets with locally set priorities. rather than conduct a one-off investigation. Members We also encouraged greater use of officer discretion, worked extremely hard to produce what I think is the backed by more efficient supervision. Public expectations Home Affairs Committee’s definitive report on policing. of the police are not being met—worryingly, when last I thank Committee members for all their hard work. surveyed, in 2007-08, only half the population thought During our inquiry, we found examples of excellent that the police were doing a good job, despite the practice, as well as areas that need dramatic improvement. continued fall in crime levels. The public want the police The Committee was keen not to be confined within the to be more active in dealing with minor crime and walls of Westminster, so we travelled around the country antisocial behaviour. We recommended that the police looking at policing in different areas of England and be more visible and responsive to the public and give Wales. I am pleased to say that we met stakeholders in greater consideration to the needs of the victim in places such as Newark, Reading, Monmouth, Colchester, investigating crimes. Communication is vital between Manchester and Stockport. All those visits provided us victims and police, and reporting back on the progress with an excellent opportunity to assess good practice of investigations could provide the answer to restoring and, in a sense, to act as a catalyst for it to be shared. public confidence in the police. 305WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 306WH

[Keith Vaz] Mr. David Ruffley (Bury St. Edmunds) (Con): On the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the Staffordshire When right hon. and hon. Gentlemen visit their experience and the three other forces that piloted more constituencies tomorrow, they will be visited by people officer discretion and shorter, sharper crime recording with concerns about the police. Usually, the problem is practices, was that work utilised in other forces? that they do not know what is happening about their case—they do not usually have a complaint. With a Keith Vaz: As Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, good level of customer service, many cases can be dealt I have made it my practice to write to the Home with very quickly, without the need for people to see Secretary about the things that I think should and MPs. I hope, therefore, that by improving communication should not be shared with other parts of the country. In we can cut the amount of time taken to deal with this case, I wrote to the then Home Secretary to suggest complaints about how the police handle their job. that the practice should be followed in every single Total Government grants to the police have increased force. It is not necessary to wait for pilots. As someone by 19 per cent. over the past decade. Overall police once said, “We have in Government more pilots than spending was estimated at £12.6 billion in 2007-08. British Airways.” If something works practically, it is However, a number of functions are putting particular essential to do it everywhere. I am not sure whether I pressure on police resources. Foreign nationals take got a reply from the former Home Secretary, but I am longer and cost more for police forces to process than sure that when the Minister replies he will let us know British citizens. Rapid immigration has led to funding whether that practice has been taken beyond the pilot shortfalls in some areas. The Government must give areas. I certainly found the practice—and I know that greater assistance to forces in areas experiencing rapid the hon. Gentleman must have found it—extremely population change. useful. We discovered that a huge amount of police time and We supported the greater use of non-warranted police money is spent dealing with alcohol-related crime. Changes staff in areas in which it is cost-effective, but not to the in the licensing laws mean that forces have to deploy extent that the number of police officers required for officers for longer periods. We did not conclude in our maintaining public order is significantly reduced. Initially, report that the change in the licensing laws had resulted the arrival of police community support officers was in more crime, but that the workload of the police had treated with concern by some police officers, but now increased because pubs and clubs were open for longer they are a vital part of the local police service. It is periods of time. Some 45 per cent. of victims of violence important that we give credit to the police for the way in describe their assailants as being under the influence of which they have worked so closely with PCSOs when, alcohol, and 70 per cent. of police officers believe that initially, there was concern from organisations such as attending alcohol-related incidents diverts them from the Police Federation. tackling other kinds of crime. Regional collaboration on sharing services to cut costs works well in some parts of England and Wales, We supported the principle of mandatory contributions but progress elsewhere is too slow. There also remains a to policing from alcohol retainers; we advocated that gap in the provision for tackling serious and organised the practice of loss leading should be ended; and we felt crime. I am pleased to say that the Committee is shortly that it was important that there should be compulsory, to hold an inquiry into the Serious Organised Crime and not voluntary, standards for the alcohol industry. I Agency. At the same time, it will examine the work that welcome the Government’s recent steps to ban irresponsible is done by Europol, which is now led by a dynamic drinking promotions, such as, “All that you can drink young British former police officer, and which celebrates for a fiver”. I will explain later why more should be this year its 10th anniversary. done. The Committee was keen not to be seen as a killjoy or as being responsible for the death of the We did not support forced mergers as a solution, but happy hour. However, irresponsible drinking can turn we felt that if regional and local police forces wish to into “unhappy hours” for victims of alcohol-related collaborate, they should be allowed to do so. As a local crime. Drinking responsibly is not a crime and should MP, I do not want to see my police force in Leicester not be treated as such, but something must be done to being run from Nottingham, which is probably where it prevent the huge drain on our public services, which is will end up. For some reason, everything is always put happening because of irresponsible drinking. in Nottingham rather than in Leicester or Derby. I am very happy to see police forces collaborating, but I do Faced with tight funding, the police need to identify not want to return to the policy of forcing mergers, ways of freeing up resources. We were disappointed at because it was unsuccessful. the lack of progress in reducing police bureaucracy. Witnesses estimated that officers spend around 20 to We found no evidence of a drop in the number or 30 per cent. of their time completing paperwork, and quality of police officer applicants. Officer posts attract, the average officer spends only 14 per cent. of their time on average, six applicants. However, we had some concerns on patrol. We welcome plans for shorter crime-recording over retention, especially and in particular in the south-east. forms and new processes for digitally recording stop Regional forces lost 1,038 officers to the Metropolitan and account. We were invited by a member of our police over the previous five years. That is something Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Burton that the hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) (Mrs. Dean), to visit Staffordshire police, which reduced successfully highlighted to the Committee. its crime-recording form from 14 pages to one, which it As for the rest of the work force, we advocated estimates saves officers 20 to 25 minutes per form. The greater standardisation in the deployment of PCSOs use of personal digital assistants in Bedfordshire has and consideration of whether they could be granted increased visible patrols from 14 to 19 per cent. for each some powers of arrest in very exceptional circumstances. officer. All frontline officers should be given PDAs. We did not advocate affirmative action, but we were 307WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 308WH concerned about the lack of Government progress on The police have received record levels of funding in the diversity targets set by the Government themselves the past decade; we must ensure that police forces under the previous Home Secretary, now the Lord continue to be properly resourced to meet the challenges. Chancellor, following the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. We were therefore concerned to hear of the problems We felt that greater efforts should be made to encourage faced by some forces—they were described to the more people from the ethnic minority communities and Committee as second-tier forces—that are losing out more women into the senior levels of policing in this because of the police funding formula. The new chief country. constable of West Midlands police, Chris Sims, warned Finally, we concluded that the Home Office should last week that officer and staff numbers are likely to be give back more control over policing decisions to local cut. The Home Secretary must take heed of Sir Ronnie forces, which would result in a bottom-up approach to Flanagan’s recommendations on the formula. policing. There should be greater accountability of policing Capping is also causing some forces concern: Surrey to the public at a local level. However, we were clear police authority is seeking a judicial review of a Government that proposals originally put forward by the Home decision to cap its budget, which resulted in a loss of Office to restructure police authorities did not meet that £1.6 million; Derbyshire police authority is also planning need and threatened to undermine the partnership that an appeal to the Government against future budget was already working between the police and local authorities restrictions; and Leicestershire police narrowly escaped as well as having the potential to be exploited by being capped last year. Forces should never be in a extremist parties. position in which they may have to cap their budget. Following our representations to the Government, This Government have done so much for policing. both in the report and in a letter following our one-off Surely we should ensure that the situation does not session that we held in December, we were delighted to come to cuts in our forces. hear that the then Home Secretary, my right hon. I know that the Minister is concerned about his Friend the Member for Redditch, withdrew her proposals budget, but I say this to him: the National Policing to introduce direct elections to police authorities. Instead, Improvement Agency has spent £70 million on consultants the Policing and Crime Bill, which has reached Committee at the same time as police forces have to cut officers. stage in another place, inserts into the Police Act 1996 a That is simply not acceptable. The funding difficulties requirement for police authorities to have regard to the make it imperative that the police operate as efficiently views on policing of the people in their area. We were as possible. It is estimated that officers spend around pleased that the Government strongly welcomed our 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. of their time on paperwork. report and that the then Minister of State, my hon. The previous Policing Minister, my hon. Friend the Friend the Member for Gedling, was able to appear Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker), told us in March before us in March to give us an update on the that a total of 26,188 hand-held devices had been issued recommendations. However, we are disappointed that to police forces across the country as part of the the Government have failed to take up our Government’s target of delivering 30,000 devices by recommendations in a few key areas, notably around March 2010. Jan Berry’s lead on reducing bureaucracy minimum pricing for alcohol. in the police provided the Committee with an excellent The Government’s chief medical officer, Sir Liam framework to investigate that further—it is impressive Donaldson, has since proposed the introduction of a that someone can go from marching with 100,000 police minimum price of 50p per unit of alcohol, which would officers and support staff through the streets of Whitehall mean that a standard bottle of wine could not be sold and end up becoming the Government’s tsar on cutting for less than £4, a 2-litre bottle of cider for less than red tape, but we welcome her appointment and look £5.50 and the average six-pack of lager for less than £6. forward to her report. My own local constabulary, He considered such a move could, after 10 years, lead to Leicestershire, recently deployed hand-held devices to 3,400 fewer deaths and 100,000 fewer hospital admissions 450 beat officers and PCSOs who patrol on foot or a year, and that it would also have a significant impact bicycle after discovering that officers were spending at on crime rates. Alas, the Government did not follow the least one third of a nine-hour shift at their desks accessing medical advice of their own chief medical officer. The or recording information on the computer systems. The Policing and Crime Bill introduces some measures towards Committee and I want all front-line police officers to reducing alcohol-related harm—for example, it increases have access to a mobile device. the maximum fine for consuming alcohol in a designated We were pleased to be assured that our concerns public place—but the Committee feels that they are not about capacity issues on the Airwave radio network, sufficient. I am sure the Minister will give us more which is now used by all officers, are being taken information when he replies. We welcome what the seriously, particularly in the light of the forthcoming Government have done so far, but we believe they need Olympics. However, in an article in Jane’s Police Review to go much further. last week, Barrie Trower, an independent research physicist, Since our inquiry, the UK has fallen into a recession predicted that Airwave users could be at risk of thousands and there are concerns about the potential impact on of slow-growing brain tumours. The Minister has just crime levels and speculation about capping the numbers taken up his post, but I hope that he will be able to of officers. I hope the Minister can reassure the House assure us that there are no health dangers with Airwave. that no cuts will be made to the police force in England The Committee continues to scrutinise the work of and Wales in the foreseeable future. The chief constable the police and in the next 10 days we will publish our of Gloucestershire, Dr. Timothy Brain, who gave evidence report into the policing of the G20 protests. I hope that to the Committee in March, described what tends to it will recommend positive action for the police to take happen during recession. He told us that during the in response to the criticisms they have received. second half of the 1970s through to the mid-point of I am sure that the House will be aware of the disturbing the 1980s, crime rose by about 124 per cent. news this week that police officers allegedly tortured 309WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 310WH

[Keith Vaz] which this place works, and we have heard various suggestions even in the last day or two about how to suspected drug dealers during questioning. I hope that strengthen Select Committees. I hope that we go a long the Minister ensures that those allegations are investigated way down that path so that Select Committees can quickly and that they are responded to with the appropriate better fulfil their potential. action. As I am sure he knows, if he does not do that, I will not try to cover every aspect of the report—the the Committee will—it is very willing to hold further Chair of the Committee, in his excellent summary of inquiries. the report, could only scratch the surface—but I will Finally, I would like to take the opportunity to thank pick out some things that particularly stood out for me. the Minister and the hon. Members for Bury St. Edmunds One, which has already been referred to, was the general and for Chesterfield for their presence here today, and issue of targets and expectations for the police in the members of my Committee for their work. I hope that 21st century, the situation on which has been both the Government continue to take our conclusions and improved and worsened by the advent of modern recommendations into account in working towards communications, the internet and rapid communication delivering a first-class police service that will be fit for such as e-mail. purpose in the 21st century. People now expect a much faster, if not instantaneous, 2.56 pm response. They send a complaint by text message or Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I congratulate the e-mail to their beat officer at the appropriate address Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, the right and want an immediate response. MPs have had the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), on his same experience, as the volume of casework has increased usual excellent work. I have already heard him speak on massively for MPs and councillors in local government. policing once this week. He is always assiduous in It has put a lot of extra pressure on the police. In some chasing issues in Parliament that relate to his Committee’s ways, that is quite right, because it makes the police work. I also congratulate the members of the Committee more accountable, but in other ways it raises people’s on their contribution. expectations and they can be easily disappointed. The report is a superb example of exactly what Select There is a danger that some current legislative changes Committees are supposed to be about. It is a tour de concerning community calls for action are creating force, if you will excuse the pun, Mr. Williams. It looks more expectations for the police—and on local councillors ahead at the policing issues that will be relevant in the in partnership—to do something. If the residents of a 21st century. Select Committees are good at producing council ward make a community call for action, they such work. I declare an interest as someone who has want the police and local authority to do something been a member of the Children, Schools and Families now. If the resources are not there and the police cannot Committee, which was formerly the Education and respond immediately, there will be disappointment. Those Skills Committee, for most of the past eight years, so I issues are highlighted in the section of the Committee have seen the process from that side of the fence. Select report dealing with what the police do, what is expected Committees are excellent because their reports are largely of them, what targets are being set for them by central impartial. Obviously politics gets in the way sometimes Government, and what local residents are demanding. but by and large, in my experience, including from One interesting point about recorded crime that stands reading reports by Committees with which I was not out is the question of whether the crime situation is directly involved, Committees tend to avoid the pitfall getting worse. All the statistics tell us that the position of politicisation. They tend to be impartial and to fulfil on crime is getting better. Page 10 of the report cites an the hope that was behind them when they were set up in interesting statistic. It says: their strengthened form in the great reform of 1979. “Changes in society led to a steady rise in recorded crime levels Select Committee reports are not Government reports— between the 1950s and the 1990s, with recorded crime per officer the information is not obscured by or filtered through increasing dramatically in the 1980s from an average of 26 crimes the Government or the civil service—and they are not per officer in 1982, to 42 per officer in 1992. This figure has since Opposition reports that are written purely for political remained fairly constant.” purposes. Committees take a huge raft of evidence from It is instructive to bear those bald statistics in mind. expert witnesses of every variety. For example, a section Crime levels rose steadily in the UK and the western of the Home Affairs Committee’s report deals with world from the 1950s onwards—it did not particularly alcohol. Although the Committee heard from the alcohol matter who was in government. The Conservatives were trade, which obviously had a certain point of view on in government for 13 years from 1951 to 1964. In the minimum pricing and controls on pubs, it also heard later ’60s, there was a Labour Government, and then from the police, community bodies and local authorities. there was the Conservatives again, then Labour and Committees produce excellent, up-to-date summaries then the Conservatives for 18 years. Now we have had of expert opinion on issues, and their reports are presented Labour for 12 years. However, crime figures went up coherently and concisely. They provide ammunition for steadily—with some dramatic jumps, as in the 1980s—for a two-hour parliamentary debate such as this, but they the best part of half a century in the western world and will also be referred to over and again for years to come. the UK. Across the western world, they have tended to This report will be referred to every time policing is level off or decrease, as with the famous example of raised in Parliament, during elections and in the press. New York, which some people attribute directly to Select Committee reports rumble on for many years zero-tolerance policing and others simply explain by after they are produced. pointing out, “Well, you’ve got a change in age demographic As I said, the report is an excellent, outstanding in the population of the USA, and crime has gone example of what Select Committees do so well. There is down all over the country, regardless of whether there a lot of talk at the moment about reforming the way in has been the zero-tolerance approach of New York 311WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 312WH policing.” When we try to apply those lessons to English happy about it, because residents parking and similar policing, we need to bear those statistics in mind, rather measures are now being enforced, whereas before the than following the knee-jerk reactions in the headlines. police would just say, “We haven’t got the time to do The newspapers tell us that we are in the midst of the that.” Chief Superintendent Steve Dann’s comments worst crime wave ever, even though the statistics, as are apposite. We need to talk to the public, to politicians evidenced in the report, do not bear that out. at all levels and to the media to ask what we expect the Equally, the report asked the valid question of whether police to do. we can always trust the stats. The public certainly do On the issue of Government directives about what not. As the report points out, only a few months ago, in the police should do, we see the same tension at a much 2008, we discovered that some police forces had not higher level. On the one hand police forces have been been recording certain types of criminal offence in the told, “You’ve got to look very carefully. You’ve got to right category, which meant that the number of crimes assess crime threats, serious crime and the terrorist of serious violence, far from falling, should have jumped threat. You’ve got to have more collaboration”—perhaps by 20 per cent. That was due simply to errors or involving the super-forces that were mooted but have, differences in how police forces collected the stats. thankfully, been dropped recently—“so that you can That situation makes the clear case that we must take tackle the most serious forms of crime, like terrorism the collection and presentation of statistics on sensitive and organised crime.” On the other hand, we want issues such as crime out of the hands of the Government— much more neighbourhood policing and a greater they must not be seen to be political or be changed for uniformed officer presence out on the streets to tackle political purposes—and put that into the hands of an what members of the public are most concerned about: independent body. In that way, hopefully, we would get low-level, everyday crime such as vandalism, petty nuisance to a point at which the public and the media would trust and drunkenness in the streets. We need more clarity on the stats, instead of saying, as the public so often do, who decides the priorities and to restore much more “Well, your statistics might show that crime has been local control and accountability. falling fairly steadily, but we don’t believe it. We think Some of the evidence in the Select Committee’s report it’s much worse—although not around here.” As the made those points extremely well. Brian Paddick, a report points out, people say that they think the crime former assistant commissioner in the Metropolitan police, situation is quite good where they live, but that it is said: generally bad. It is the same for education. Lots of “The problem with the Home Office was nationally imposed people say, “Schools are really bad these days, but the targets, some of which were having perverse outcomes”, one my children attend is very good”. Indeed, recent although they were set with the best of intentions. He surveys show that people say, “Members of Parliament continued: are all crooks, but my local MP is actually quite good.” “For example, in terms of offences brought to justice, I am sure We need objective statistics in which people can have a the Committee will realise that it is one point on the score board for a complex case of murder which might take 18 months to bit more trust. investigate and six months to try in court, provided there is a The question of what the police do has been raised. I conviction that counts as one offence brought to justice”, was struck that the borough commander of Hackney but it is also one point for police, Chief Superintendent Steve Dann, asked what “a cannabis warning that takes 20 minutes to deal with”. the police were there for and what the public and the If police are getting pressure from the centre as well politicians wanted them to do. He said: as from the inspector who assesses police forces—if “I think we need some clarity around that…Why do we take they are being told, “You’ve got to have so many cases lost property? Why do we take lost dogs? Is that what we should brought to justice. Why are you behind the national be doing?...You have some people saying: ‘Enforcement. Let’s average? Why are you behind your target?”—there is an enforce. That is your job’; other people are saying we should be in inevitable pressure, as in education with league tables prevention, education” and Ofsted inspections, to work to the target and do the and community outreach. Where is the balance between things that tick boxes, even if that is not the best all those things? example of how policing should be done in a particular I have a local example of what is happening throughout area. the country. In the past few months in Derbyshire, we Some might point out that at the time when Brian have seen a shift in the enforcement of minor traffic Paddick gave that evidence, he was the Liberal Democrat legislation, such as parking and so forth, because it has candidate for Mayor of London, but Chief Superintendent been taken away from the police. They had often said, Dave Hudson of Essex police made exactly the same “We haven’t got the time to do that. We have other, point in his evidence. His division more pressing demands on our attention,” but people in “had a daily target of 20.5 ‘sanction detections’, with the same some places were getting irritated that local parking weighting accorded to every detection, regardless of the seriousness regulations were not being enforced. of the offence.” As across the country, therefore, enforcement in The more serious the offence, the longer it takes to Derbyshire has gone to the local authorities—the county investigate and prosecute, and the more trivial the offence, councils and the boroughs and districts in collaboration— the easier it is to deal with, but the two get exactly the and they have put it out to a private organisation same weighting. That is a consequence—unforeseen, I known as the “green giants”, because of their new green am sure—of a Government initiative to hold police uniforms. Since they took over from the police a few forces to account. months ago, they are much more visible and enforce the So how should police forces be held to account? That rules and regulations more proactively. Some motorists is where there is a need to go back to local control and are not happy about that, because they are now being accountability, not through the elected sheriff model stopped from parking illegally, but lots of residents are that the Conservative party talks about, and on which 313WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 314WH

[Paul Holmes] the electoral system to stop people getting elected. If enough people want to elect a certain group of politicians, its spokesman will doubtless elaborate later, but through that is democracy—it is what democracy is all about. It locally elected police boards. That is not the macho is the job of politicians in the main parties to put across individual in charge of everything, who gets the headlines the arguments and policies to stop that happening. and creates a stir, but a more responsive, democratic model, through which the local electorate, rather than Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Order. Perhaps we can distant central Government in London, can hold things get back to debating the police. to account. Keith Vaz: I am following what the hon. Gentleman Paul Holmes: I apologise, Mr. Williams, but the matter says with great interest. The present system might well is directly relevant to the aspect of the Select Committee be okay, but the problem is the visibility of members of report that we are discussing and the question of how to the police authority. The public do not feel that the get necessary accountability. The Liberal Democrats police are held to account. The system of an elected would want proportional representation for police boards, police authority exists, and individuals are elected or as for every election, but the question is what sort of appointed by councillors, who appoint one of their proportional representation to use. Opponents always number to the authority—it is usually chaired by a choose the worst example they can think of, such as the councillor. However, the authority and the people on it Israeli list system or the closed list system for the are invisible, rather like people on primary care trusts or European Parliament. That is not the method that any health authorities. They are on those bodies to represent sensible person who wants PR would suggest. The the public, but the public do not know who they are. single transferable vote that was adopted a few years ago with massive success by New Zealand, which has an Paul Holmes: I agree absolutely, and that is why some English-style democratic system, is exactly what we people have said, “What is wrong with the existing would propose, not the bad systems that people hold up police authority board? The structure is already there.” as an example. The authorities will now say, “We are making much more effort these days to go and talk to the people in The question of directly elected boards and how to our area.” The Derbyshire police authority does a good hold the police to account leads on to the section of the job. It has been incredibly proactive in holding parish Select Committee report about resources and how to hall meetings all over Derbyshire to consult the public finance the police. At the moment, as the report clearly and explain what is going on. There is now online crime and succinctly explains, most funding for the police, like mapping, as well as other initiatives, and a lot of local most instruction for the police, comes from London. response and consultation, but how many people turn We are one of the most centralised countries in the up to the meetings, and how many people feel that they western world. Some 90 per cent. of taxation is raised have a direct input? by No. 11 Downing street. It goes, effectively, to No. 11 Downing street, and is handed out with strings attached. Most members of the police authority have been No other western country works in that way. Other appointed in one way or another. Even the third—I countries raise money locally and spend it locally on think that is the proportion—who are elected councillors police, education, health and other things, and need not have been elected to other authorities, such as the ask the capital city for permission to do so. We are the county, district or borough council, and then co-opted exception, as with PR. The Liberal Democrats argue on to the police authority. There is no direct line of that the resources issue should be dealt with differently, accountability. That is why we suggest that there should and that is why we want locally elected police boards. be proper, elected police boards rather than appointed We do not want them just so they can do what police quangos—even if part of the quango is elected in some authorities do now. We are thinking about much more way. There should be a directly elected and directly powerful local police authorities with power over the accountable authority, but not a single, macho, elected raising of finance. sheriff. The Select Committee report sets out clearly why Mr. Ruffley: The hon. Gentleman is giving a very such reform is needed. At the moment, although there considered précis of Liberal Democrat policy, but just is variation across the country—I think that the figure is so that I can be clear about this point, would the as low as 50 per cent. in Surrey—most police forces, like election to the boards that he describes be by proportional most local authorities, get anything up to 70 or 75 per representation? If so, what lessons does he draw from cent. of their funding as grant from central Government. the election of the British National party to various Only 20 to 30 per cent. comes from the local council tax county council seats in the past few days? precept that the police authority sets. That has led to some immense problems for police forces. I mentioned Paul Holmes: The first point would be that the election Surrey, and there was a debate two days ago in Westminster of the BNP to a tiny number of county council seats Hall on the Surrey capping issue, during which I managed happened under first past the post, not proportional to make some contributions with reference to the Derbyshire representation. I do not have any sympathy with the comparison that has already been raised. The Government idea that the democratic process should be rigged to hand out most of the money, give most of the directives exclude certain people, rather than that they should be to the police about what they must do, and set most of defeated in democratic argument. People with extreme the targets that they must meet, but they use a formula political views may get elected under any electoral system. that they admitted in 2006 was inadequate and unfair, As I have said, most of the success of the BNP—and it leading them to introduce a new formula based on has been very small in the past 10 or 20 years—has need. They then said that they could not introduce the happened under first past the post. We cannot change new formula, and thus told Derbyshire, “You need 315WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 316WH

£5 million more a year if you are to deliver the policing People in Derbyshire want police on the beat. They that we, the Government, say you should, but you do not understand why Derbyshire has 380 fewer people cannot have it.” in uniform on the streets than an equivalent shire county, As the Committee’s report points out, some authorities or why some have more people on the beat because they have been even worse hit. It points out that the West have been given the money that should have gone to Midlands force received nearly 11 per cent.—£48 million— Derbyshire. However, Derbyshire cannot do anything less than the funding formula would have given it in about that. It cannot raise the money through local 2007-08, if that formula had been applied. The Government taxation, even if local people are willing for that to said, “You need all this money, but you cannot have it.” happen, because the Government say no. There cannot Yet another force, Northumbria, gets 12 per cent. more be localism and police forces cannot be accountable to than it should, according to the central Government the local area if that is not allowed to happen. That is funding formula. The system of ceilings and floors—to why we must change completely the resourcing of police ensure that change takes place relatively slowly and that forces. all an authority’s surplus money is not taken away There must be local accountability. That is why we immediately to be given to an underfunded one—is argue that police authorities cannot continue to be, in understandable if there is a sensible and logical time effect, appointed quangos, albeit that some of their scale in which the funding schemes are brought together members have been elected to other authorities. There so that everyone is funded equitably. However, that is must be properly elected police boards to deliver the not happening. It is happening for fire authorities and, finance and local accountability that the Government to some extent, for local authorities, but not for police say is needed, but prevent from happening, and towards authorities. which the Select Committee report shows we should Quite a number of authorities, including Derbyshire, move in admirable detail and clarity. have been told, “You are badly underfunded and need The immigration and foreign workers section of the more money than you get to do your job. When we send Select Committee report was interesting, if only for one inspectors to assess your police force, we will assess you sentence. The evidence shows that the policing issue against forces that are being paid more money than they related to immigrant workers and communities—contrary need to do the job, and we will criticise you because you to public or media opinion—is that are not doing your job properly, even though you are underfunded. Who is underfunding you? We are—central “foreign nationals are more likely to be victims than perpetrators Government. What can you do about it? Nothing.” of crime.” That is because if an authority tries, as Derbyshire has In areas such as Chesterfield, where significant groups done this year with support from MPs and councillors of eastern European workers have arrived in recent of all three parties, and as Surrey has done, to raise the years, the cost of providing interpreters is a great burden money from the council tax precept, the Government on police forces, especially given the range of languages caps it. Derbyshire is not being forced to rebill this year, that are spoken. However, they are more likely to be which would waste large amounts of money to save interpreting for a victim of crime than for somebody slightly larger amounts, but it is being informed that it who has been charged with committing a crime. will lose the relevant amount of money next year, so it is Government funding for interpreters is too slow and being told, “We are not going to take the money off you ineffective to meet the problem. It is based on the this year; we’ll take it off you next year.” Derbyshire 10-yearly censuses, so it does not take account of quick must lose £1.6 million, but that amounts to 60 front-line population movements. Only two years ago, a large police officers losing their jobs to meet the Government’s number of eastern European workers came to this council tax capping directive. I am not the one who says country. Many of them are now leaving because of the so; it is Mick Creedon, the chief constable of Derbyshire. recession, or because they have earned the money they Surrey is in an even worse position and other authorities, wanted to raise and are going back to set up businesses such as Leicestershire and Lincolnshire, went through in their home countries. We benefit from their work and the process last year. It is a problem across the board. the economy in places such as Poland will benefit in The rationale that the Government gave in the debate return, which is what the European Union is all about. two days ago for what they were doing was a very confused one—they said that Derbyshire, for example, The Government funding formula does not respond was setting an excessive budget. The extra money on the to the problem of the cost of interpreters quickly enough. council tax would have raised about £1.6 million, but We see the same problem in education, housing and the Government have said that Derbyshire police are elsewhere. It was worth pointing out just that one £5 million underfunded. How can raising an extra sentence of the Select Committee report to show that £1.6 million towards a £5 million underfunding be an foreign nationals are more likely to be the victims of excessive budget? It still does not reach the spending crime than the cause of it. However, the problem of the level that the Government say is needed. It is ludicrous cost of interpreters must be dealt with. and illogical—and completely undemocratic. Derbyshire Alcohol has been dealt with today by the Chairman and Surrey police authorities, and others last year, of the Select Committee, and it has been discussed at consulted their council tax payers and all the different length during the passage of the Policing and Crime Bill councils and elected bodies at different levels, as well as and in other debates. There is a missed opportunity. The getting MPs from different parties on board; and central 24-hour café culture that the Licensing Act 2003 envisaged Government said, “You cannot do this.” There is an has not come about. Instead, we have more drinking in utter dislocation between local police forces and the town centres and it is more spread out. The police used Government, who told them that there must be localism, to need extra numbers on duty from 11 o’clock at night that they must be accountable to local people and that to 2 o’clock in the morning on Thursdays, Fridays and they must do what local people want. Saturdays. That police presence must now be spread out 317WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 318WH

[Paul Holmes] New York, we saw those arches in use at the entrance of every school that we visited. We are a long way from right through to 6 o’clock in the morning. That is the having to go down that road, but the use of mobile experience in Chesterfield, and it causes more difficulties arches and intelligent stop-and-search powers have a for policing and makes it more expensive. big role to play, as long as we never go back to the According to my local police and the evidence given heavy-handed days of the sus laws, which caused such to the Policing and Crime Bill Committee, the main problems in the 1970s. problem is not town centre drinking venues and the One example of intelligence-led policing that has results of the Licensing Act 2003, but under-age drinking. been mentioned in recent debates comes from Cardiff, The problem is cheap booze in off-licences and off-premises, where the accident and emergency unit logged anonymous with cheap super-strength lagers and ciders being sold reports of exactly where stabbing incidents occurred. at rock-bottom prices as loss-leaders to get people into Such schemes can cause many problems, as the medical supermarkets. Regrettably, the Government sidestepped profession does not want to report all stabbing and that problem in the Policing and Crime Bill. There is gunshot incidents to the police because of issues such as much talk of strengthening powers to control licensees patient confidentiality. However, in Cardiff, incidents and pubs, but in that proposal, too, there is far too were reported anonymously.The police used the information much direction from London, instead of local authorities not to pursue individuals, but to create a crime map and being able to decide where the problems are. Local identify where the stabbings were taking place. They authorities know their areas far better than anybody then diverted resources into the problem areas. In Cardiff, sitting here in London. All the emphasis has been on there was a 40 per cent. reduction in knife crime and that issue and there has been nothing about stopping stabbings simply through sensible, intelligence-led policing. super-strength, cheap booze getting into the hands of The use of computers to analyse hot spots on a week- under-age drinkers on the streets so easily. by-week basis has worked well in other areas of policing. Whenever I am on patrol with the police, police Regrettably, although the Government have looked community support officers and special constables in at that experiment and have introduced some pilots—we Chesterfield, I ask what is the biggest source of problems. have heard that they have more pilots than the Air They always say that it is the early-evening nuisance Force—it has not been rolled out. It is such an obvious around the high streets, shopping centres and play areas and simple technique and has been proven to work. It where kids congregate with cheap, super-strength booze means that less police time is wasted, because efforts that they have bought from off premises. It is much can be targeted in the most effective way. Why are harder to control that problem than town centre pubs, successful examples, such as the one in Cardiff, not because it is scattered across the community. being adopted more widely? The Government seem to be closing their eyes to that The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. David problem, as the eloquent testimony of the Chairman of Hanson): We discussed this matter in Tuesday’s debate the Select Committee showed. I agree with the Select in the main Chamber, so the hon. Gentleman knows Committee recommendations on alcohol disorder zones that the Government have spoken to the consultant and the “polluter pays” principle, under which the pubs involved in the Cardiff example, who addressed the and all-night drinking establishments that cause these ministerial group dealing with the tackling knives action problems should help to pay to solve them. I also agree plan. From memory, we have increased the number of with minimum pricing and the control of loss-leading hospitals in knife crime action plan areas that use data sales of cheap alcohol. Unfortunately, the Government sharing to about 45 or 46. The Government have focused seem to be avoiding tackling these issues. on those key areas, because knife crime is not a problem What I said in my opening comments is also true of in every part of England and Wales. Data sharing knife crime. Although crime has been falling, nobody should be used where it is appropriate, which is in areas believes the statistics. Many people have a fear of crime, that have a high level of knife crime. but they do not read the statistics. The statistics on knife crime, if they can be believed, show that it has slowly Paul Holmes: They are welcome steps forward, and decreased over the past seven years. However, especially that comes into what I am going to say about the use of after last year’s feast of press coverage on some of the personal digital assistants. tragic murders, everybody believes that knife crime has We are moving in the right direction, but I wonder soared through the roof. In truth, the press suddenly why it has taken so long, given the successful examples paid major attention to these tragic deaths, having not that have been shown to work so well. A 40 per cent. done so for the previous six years. There was a debate reduction in stabbings is a win-win result: the health about knife crime in the main Chamber on Tuesday, service saves money because it does not have to treat which was repeated in part in yesterday’s debate on those people, the police save money because they are youth crime in this Chamber, and in which I participated. able to target particular areas and reduce knife crime, Nobody disputes the seriousness of the issues and the and society as a whole benefits because there are not need to deal with knife crime, but the interesting statistics lurid newspaper headlines about yet another teenager in the report suggest that knife crime is in slow decline being stabbed and perhaps dying, so everybody wins. rather than soaring through the roof. The same approach could be applied in accident and There has been much discussion of how we should emergency units when people are drunk and disorderly, deal with knife crime in the debates of the past two and when incidents of grievous bodily harm have occurred, days. Intelligence-led policing is one method, and there to pinpoint the pockets where trouble arises. I hope that are good examples of that in the past 18 months in there will be more widespread use of that approach. It London. Targeted stop-and-search powers have been requires joined-up government down to local authority used in problem areas, and mobile arch metal detectors level, with areas such as health and policing pushing have been used. On a recent Select Committee visit to together get that kind of collaboration. 319WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 320WH

We have heard about police time, so I shall deal with own set of computers, which does not really speak to that quickly. It is a long-standing and perennial cry that others set of computers, so it is not only about purchasing the police spend all their time filling in bits of paper the technology but about getting the procurement right instead of being out on the beat. Indeed, there are so that we save money in the end. reports from 30 years ago saying that. However, there is certainly lots of evidence that that has been true in the Paul Holmes: Yes; that leads me to my penultimate past few years. The Flanagan recommendations on point about collaboration. The Chair of the Committee revising the stop and account process under the Police has made the point that he does not want Leicestershire’s and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 are very welcome. We police force to be directed from Nottinghamshire or heard the Staffordshire example about cutting down a Derbyshire. Equally, I do not want Chesterfield to be form from 14 pages to one, which is an obvious thing policed from Leicester, Nottingham or anywhere else in to do. the vast area known as the east midlands. A few years When I went out on patrol with some of the Chesterfield ago, we were facing the threat of enforced mergers of officers, we stopped a group of eight or nine teenagers police forces into super-bodies. I see that idea as a and people in their early 20s who were possibly drunk major threat, although it would be an accountant’s and disorderly in the street, but were mostly being loud dream. In the past few weeks, the CBI, I think, has said and in high spirits. If the police had filled in the required something like, “Let’s save lots of money by merging all forms for all nine of them, which would have involved the police forces together, because that is what an efficient asking their names, addresses, and why they had stopped business would do.” But what would happen to the there, it would have cut an hour or more out of their customer in that situation? patrol time. Police officers on the front line therefore The customer is the individual out on the street who tend to find ways around filling in reams and reams of wants a local policeman to respond to their local needs. paperwork, even though they are told that they have to If we had super-forces covering the east midlands and do that. We need to make the paperwork system as all the other regions in England, there would be a streamlined as possible. We have heard about the good danger that the policing needs of Leicester, Nottingham examples and the good pilots, but we need to move and Derby would take priority over the rural policing beyond pilots. needs of supposedly crime-free areas in rural parts of The same is true of personal digital assistants. We Derbyshire. However, rural Derbyshire is within one have been debating and arguing about this issue for hour’s driving distance of 20 per cent. of the rest of the months now and the Government are moving down UK population. Indeed, it is a selling point of the Peak that road much faster. Let me give an example I have District national park in Derbyshire that so many people used before. Four years ago, Chesterfield borough council’s can get to that green lung. That access causes a problem housing department equipped each of its housing repair with tourist numbers, which is a good problem to deal teams, which deal with its 10,000 council houses, with a with, but it also means that all the serious organised van that is logged by computer and global positioning gangs from Sheffield, Nottingham, Leeds and Rotherham system by the people at head office. Those people know can be there in no time. what stock is on board each van, so if they get a call for The small local shop around the corner from where I a plumbing repair, they do not just send the van that the live, on Newbold road in Chesterfield, was held up at GPS satellite tells them is nearest, but the one that the gunpoint a few months ago when we had the heavy computerised log tells them has the correct part on snow, and a number of other businesses around north board. The repair man can get the job signed off by the Derbyshire have also been held up at gunpoint. Gun customer on his hand-held PDA, that information is crime is pretty rare around Chesterfield, so it was pretty sent back to central office, then he can get his next job shocking when that happened to the shop just around from his PDA. That system saves a lot of time, because the corner that I use regularly with my kids. The gang he is not driving backwards and forwards between the who did it have been through court in the past few centre of town and the outlying areas. Those repair men weeks. They were from Sheffield, and they drove into are gaining a great deal of time in the day to do their north Derbyshire, because they thought they would be jobs more effectively, cheaply and responsibly. If my less well known there and that the police would not be borough council’s housing department could do that as big, organised and on the ball as the big city force in four or five years ago, why is a similar system only just Sheffield. They were arrested fairly quickly, and they being rolled out across police forces after the pilots? have been sent to prison, which is good. The Surrey Why does that common sense usage take so long? MPs talked about something similar in the recent As the report points out, the technology is cheap. It Westminster Hall debate on the capping of Surrey can save at least an hour per officer per shift, and it can police funding. They said that organised crime gangs cost as little as 80p a day. In one authority, the use of come out on the motorway to the London outskirts, to hand-held BlackBerrys delivered £8.8 million of non- what they see as easier pickings. cashable savings a year. It provides secure access for the We do not want collaboration and super-forces to be beat officer straight to the police national computer and imposed. We have backed away from that idea now, but other intelligence databases, so it is win-win all round. I am sure it will rear its head again. We do not want city policing issues to dominate, so that policing is stripped Keith Vaz: As someone who is still using a mobile away from smallish, rural areas such as Chesterfield to phone, I sometimes watch as technology develops. The some super-force elsewhere. I am absolutely against that point is not only that the police should be given that sort of enforced collaboration—I think that the Committee new technology, but that it should also be compatible Chairman has made the same point—but there are with systems throughout England and Wales. One problem areas in which collaboration makes absolute sense. Indeed, with the computer system is that one authority buys its the east midlands forces have undertaken some pioneer 321WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 322WH

[Paul Holmes] As we enter the 21st century, new demands are being put on police forces—for example, international terrorism case studies in England showing where police forces can is yet another problem with which they have to deal. We collaborate on serious and organised crime, terrorism cannot just carry on in the same way and it is good that and high-level policing threats without having to force a there are many signs of the way in which police forces merger of police forces. and politicians are moving in their thinking, but we have to move much faster. It is important to get that There is a role for a national strategy in one area that local accountability and democratic control back so the Chairman has raised—the purchase of certain that local communities can have a real say—not just in technology and equipment. Police officers have pointed what they want, but in how it is going to be paid for. If out to me that some things are much more standardised local communities want something, they need to put in America, where police cruisers all tend to be the same their money where their mouth is. However, at the type of large vehicle with plenty of room. The problem moment, central Government does not allow that to with many British police cars is that there is no room on happen. the dashboard for bits of computer kit, because of the type of cars that the police buy. Moreover, they do not get the benefits of bulk purchase and standardisation 3.41 pm across forces that have been mentioned. There is a place Mr. David Ruffley (Bury St. Edmunds) (Con): Her for intelligent collaboration and co-operation, and for Majesty’s Opposition and I welcome this debate on the national purchasing strategies on some things, but certainly Home Affairs Committee’s report “Policing in the 21st not for removing local command, control and Century”. The police in this country do a truly magnificent accountability, which we should strengthen. job, often in difficult and dangerous circumstances. The title of the report is “Policing in the 21st century”. That is brought home to those of us who work with the As we came to the end of the 20th century and the start police service, and it was doubly brought home to me of the 21st century, we faced many new challenges in when I recently spent most of the week at the Police policing, which is very different from what it was. The Federation conference in Bournemouth, where I saw Government rightly boast that we now have more police dedicated men and women working very hard. In the officers per head of population than at any time in mother of Parliaments, it is incumbent on all of us to history. That is true, but we also have more need, as acknowledge that at the outset—such comments always there are crimes now that did not exist 20 years ago. The bear repeating. scale of internet fraud is one example. Another issue I welcome the Minister to his new post. I also had that the Committee looked at that has not been discussed fruitful discussions with his predecessors. I am grateful today is the fact that fraud attracts such a low rating for to him for setting out the Government’s views on the the police. Even though about £14 billion a year is taken Committee’s report. I particularly want to congratulate in criminal fraud, it still is not a No. 1 priority for the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), policing. the Chairman of the Committee, on yet another thorough, Police forces have to have dedicated teams to deal illuminating, detailed and helpful report on the challenges with internet fraud, internet paedophilia and, as was facing police in the 21st century. He has a great reputation the case before the internet came along, child abuse. for producing, with the rest of his Committee, high Even in the 1960s, people would not admit that child quality reports—this is another in a long line. abuse existed, and did not believe that families were the I shall not scratch the surface of the subject too main perpetrators. It simply was not talked about. much—I endorse much of what the right hon. Gentleman Likewise, there are now police teams dedicated to dealing has already said about his report—but I will pick out with domestic violence against women, and they can be some of the issues that are particularly important to extremely effective, but it was not very many years ago Her Majesty’s Opposition. The points in the report that that was not seen as a problem. If a husband hit his about police bureaucracy, redaction and countering wife, it was simply seen as something that happened. risk aversion in the police service are very well made—in The whole concept of policing has shifted much for the short, progress is not rapid enough and there is not better in relation to such issues, partly because of shifting enough of it. social attitudes on rape, domestic abuse or child abuse The report uses the word “disappointment” in relation and admitting that those problems exist and we need to to the lack of progress made in reducing police bureaucracy. do something about them, and partly because of a new Since 1997, we have had at least four major reviews on wave of crimes that have come into existence, particularly reducing police bureaucracy and related subjects, but in relation to the internet. the fact remains that less than one fifth of patrol The advent of widespread car ownership has made it officers’ time is spent on patrol. That is not acceptable much easier to spread crime from one place to another. to the British public and I do not think that it is Criminals have made maximum use of the anonymity acceptable to hon. Members—no matter which political of being able to drive to a community in 20 minutes, party they belong to. where no one knows them at all. Again, there has been The sort of things mentioned by the Flanagan review intelligent use of police technology to deal with such and in the glancing blows of Jan Berry’s more recent problems, such as car number plate recognition. Derbyshire report show that lots of good ideas are flagged up, but police have told me that where automatic camera that they are not followed through by Ministers. Let us recognition has been piloted, they get so many hits, they take one example—forgive me if this seems to be a bit cannot deal with them all. I have read a report of an anoraky. The disclosure rules in the Manual of Guidance experiment in London where cars were checked as they 6 form—the very long forms that police officers have to came across bridges over the Thames. fill in as disclosure officers—are a huge bugbear. The 323WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 324WH

Police Federation and the Police Superintendents representation about two years ago to the right hon. Association, in short, ask whether such work could be Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), who was better done by Crown Prosecution Service lawyers, who then a Minister of State at the Home Office, on the have to review these long forms anyway. Why does an specific point about reforming the RIPA codes. officer have to do it? Why does the legislation make I shall not detain the House with detail about stop- disclosure a requirement on a police officer when it and-account and stop-and-search, save to say that Her would be better and more quickly done with more of a Majesty’s Opposition as long ago as 2005 believed that legal eye by non-police officers? the stop-and-account form should be abolished in Flanagan talks about that in his final report on totality—but not stop-and-search. That now seems to disclosure, which, of course, has a read across to wider be a mainstream view. It would save hundreds of thousands parts of the criminal justice system. However, we have of police hours each year. Also, we suggested finding a not heard anything about that matter. We have already way to record the key information that will always be said on the record that we would favour shifting the necessary for an intrusive procedure such as stop-and-search burden to CPS lawyers—although we would have to in a more user-friendly way. Digitised recordings are an pilot that—as a practical, simple and explicit way of obvious way of doing that, and we welcome the signs reducing some of the more burdensome forms, specifically that progress is being made along those lines. the part of the MG6 suite of forms that refers to To reduce police bureaucracy, we really must get to disclosure of evidence. grips with the Staffordshire pilot. There were also pilots A further issue that crops up is the need to reform in the west midlands, Leicestershire and Surrey, which statutory charging, for which Her Majesty’s Opposition were spoken about eloquently earlier. To crystallise the have been arguing for more than two years—well before point, we all know of examples from many police forces Flanagan. The statutory charging regime was introduced of two 16-year-olds having a scuffle in a playground. in 2004 and, in simple terms, it required a bigger role for The police are called and an offence of common assault the CPS to make charging decisions and, in relation to might be disclosed by the facts—two young people large swathes of offences, it removed the discretion that shoving each other in the playground. Typically, in the a custody sergeant had to make a charge. The proposal past few years, that would have given rise to a requirement that we made, Flanagan made and, I believe, Jan Berry on the officer to start filling in forms and to record a is also looking at, is to try to return more charging crime. The four pilots suggested that a police officer discretion to custody sergeants. could use his or her discretion and look for a solution that did not involve recording a crime. In the example Certainly, charging sergeants should be able to make that I gave, an apology could be offered, or the parents a decision in relation to all summary offences and they could be called in. Such solutions do not require treating should not have to make any reference to the CPS the incident as a crime, with the full panoply of forms unless they particularly want to. A large number of that are required. triable-either-way offences need to be explicitly set down as being a matter on which custody sergeants can make What has not been said in this debate but which I the charging decision, without having an obligation to think is important is that using discretion, as in the go to the CPS to authorise a charge. I do not think that Staffordshire and other pilots, has its risks. Some of the anyone is suggesting that indictable-only offences should officers who were involved in the pilots said that if they be a matter for just custody sergeants, but there certainly did not write down the details of the action that they needs to be radical reform. We need to go back more to took when called to an alleged incident and something the pre-2004 position, which was before statutory charging went wrong subsequently, they would not have any came in, and give custody sergeants more discretion. back-up or paperwork if all they did was give a verbal That would mean less file building, less pre-charge file dispensation or come to an agreement not to take the building and would save time. I would be grateful to matter further. That is a real issue that police representative hear what the Minister has to say about that, particularly bodies have discussed with me. considering his experience in a former life at the Ministry Of course the main thrust should be to allow more of Justice. discretion and less paperwork, but let us also understand Another totemic form is the Regulation of Investigatory that officers will need to be trained in the use of discretion. Powers Act 2000 form—the authorisation for direct and It is not just a question of saying to them, “Go out and other related forms of surveillance. No one pretends use your discretion,” because it is not quite as simple as that the RIPA forms are used as frequently as some of that. At present, some officers feel that filling in the the MG suite of forms. On average, police officers forms gives them the necessary protection if something obtain between 20,000 and 25,000 authorisations a year goes wrong a week or a month later. We should not play under RIPA. However, the RIPA forms are a totemic party politics or pretend that there is a simple answer. example of unnecessary bureaucracy. Under a strict We must be sensitive to what the police representative interpretation of RIPA, if a police officer wants to bodies are saying on the matter. conduct a walk-by of the house of someone who is Yes, Her Majesty’s Opposition unambiguously want going to be arrested later in the day, they have to fill in a a national roll-out of the Staffordshire model—we do form. The Police Superintendents Association has given not want pilots—and I would like to hear from the evidence in relation to the matter and has spoken to one Minister what he, his colleagues and his predecessors of the Minister’s predecessors about it. We think that have been doing to ensure that the model is more widely we should amend the RIPA codes—the statutory codes—to adopted, but also, having regard to my point, understanding make it clear that, in certain situations, RIPA authorisation that officers, many of whom might be quite young, need will not be necessary. Again, I would be grateful to hear to be inculcated in the use of discretion when for so from the Minister what progress has been made on that, long they have always had the crutch of paperwork, if I in particular the Police Superintendents Association’s can put it that way, to protect them in the event of 325WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 326WH

[Mr. David Ruffley] That is correct. Collaboration is the big game in town and will be for a long time, in the light of the fact that someone challenging their exercise of discretion. Not the strategic merger proposition of this Government enough has been said about that, which is why I particularly failed and will not be revisited by Her Majesty’s Opposition. wanted to flag it up. The model is great, but extra work It will not, as far as I am aware, be revisited by Her needs to be done to ensure that police officers’ careers Majesty’s Government, which is why there was some are protected and that they are not accused of using general agreement between the Opposition and the discretion wrongly or in a way that gives rise to problems Minister’s predecessor about how we close the level 2 later on. gap. That cannot be done by strategic merger, so I close my remarks on reducing police bureaucracy, collaboration is the way to do it. in which we all have an interest, by saying that it is not In this context, it is important to mention clause 5 of clear that we have cracked the nut of national targets, the Policing and Crime Bill that is going through Parliament which are routinely complained about by all parties. this year, which is important because it clearly gives The dreaded police performance assessment framework new, unambiguous powers to Ministers, of whatever league tables have been superseded by the new analysis political persuasion, to mandate collaboration agreements. of policing and community safety framework. It is not Without spelling out what has to be mandated in a immediately clear to me that the APACS framework is collaboration agreement, there are some detailed provisions cutting the targetry and target-chasing that constabularies involved, which I took the Minister’s predecessor through have to engage in. The chief constable of Greater in Committee. Manchester police, Peter Fahy, without specifically referring We have already seen good, obvious examples where to APACS, said that the national targetry burden on his collaboration really should be taking place throughout and other forces is still there. the country and not in an ad hoc way. The Kent and I would like to hear from the Minister what progress Essex model, which is delivering huge recurrent savings, has been made on APACS. My understanding is that allowing new fully warranted officers to be hired and the PPAF and APACS frameworks will run in tandem put on the front line, has been built around those this year as a dual system, and then APACS will kick in. counties sharing back-office services, including payroll, How much time will the new system save the average training and so on. The Policing and Crime Bill, which force, compared with the PPAF system, given all the this Government are putting through Parliament and data collection that is implicit in both systems? Why is which we support, is important because it will give APACS better? Is it better? Can he tell us how it is Ministers, potentially, the power to mandate these excellent better in terms of less targetry? efficiency-saving agreements. There has to be a huge Having given a flavour of the need for some answers debate about how that power in the Bill might be used on police bureaucracy, which was admirably dealt with in future. That is clearly the right way to go, but I by the Home Affairs Committee, my next point is about should be interested to hear what the Minister and his the policing costs of dealing with immigration, which is Home Office colleagues are doing about mandating touched on in the report. I shall not detain the House collaboration. too long, except to say that a report by KPMG in The Chairman of the Committee dealt thoroughly September 2007 on the Cambridge constabulary concluded and in great detail with alcohol-related crime. The most that Cambridgeshire required an additional 100 police recent British crime survey, published in July last year, officers to cover the additional work load generated by showed that 45 per cent. of all victims of violence policing foreign nationals. That is from the report “The described their assailant as being under the influence of changing demography of Cambridgeshire”. There are alcohol at the time. We have also heard in this debate—I strains on police resources for all kinds of reasons, but agree with the sentiments expressed—about the the issues raised by the chief constable of Cambridgeshire preponderance of cheap alcohol and we know about were correctly identified. The Minister should tell us the problems that this causes. More generally, the extended what the current position is on that, and also on translation licensing hours that the Government brought in under services, interpreter services and so on. the Licensing Act 2003 have probably compounded the Of course, pressure on police resources is caused not problem of alcohol-related crime. It would be interesting just by policing immigration. There is a tight budgetary to hear whether the Minister believes, finally, that there settlement in this country for reasons that we do not is a legal basis for banning the use of loss-leading really need to dilate on today. There will be pressures, alcohol sales by supermarkets. That specific point was whoever the Government are, on funding our great raised in the Committee’s report and it would be useful public services. Let us not forget that the police service to get a clear steer from the Minister on that. Her is one of our great institutions. None of the chief Majesty’s Opposition believe that there must be an constables to whom I speak or who gave evidence to the urgent review about the appropriateness of the current Select Committee could hide the fact that the police feel law on extended licensing and 24-hour drinking in that their ability to do the job of keeping us safe, towns and cities. preventing crime and enforcing our laws is made more The report also touches on the crucial importance of difficult in a tight budgetary environment. engaging the British public more widely in what the Without arguing about how much will be put in priorities are for their police and how policing is delivered. budgets or freezes or any of that, I would like to flag up That goes to the heart of the points on local accountability how, in a consensual way, we can get more bang for the that were raised earlier in this debate. The report says existing buck. How can we make existing resources bluntly in its introduction: work better? Collaboration, which was touched on in the report, is so important. On page 4 the report states: “Public expectations of the police are not being met.” “Regional collaboration works well in some parts of England The most recent British crime survey found that, across and Wales, but progress elsewhere is too slow.” the country, only 48 per cent. of people had confidence 327WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 328WH in the police and local authorities to deal with crime see things through the prism of the last three days in my and antisocial behaviour. There are figures showing new area of responsibility—I hope that I can do justice higher public confidence in various police forces, although to it. there is no magical number. But let us just agree that I am grateful for the tributes that have been paid to there is always room for improvement. Lots of my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling constabularies have high levels of confidence and respect (Mr. Coaker), who has gone on to other activities in emanating from the local populace, but it could be government as the Minister of State, Department for better. Children, Schools and Families. I am also grateful to The proposals to reform local police authorities advanced those who mentioned my right hon. Friend the Member by the Government last year were dropped. I will not for Redditch (Jacqui Smith), who has returned to the rehearse the reasons for that. Her Majesty’s Opposition Back Benches, but will undoubtedly, occasionally, contribute believe that there must be a much clearer line of direct to debates on these issues in due course. accountability that the British public can exercise when I will try to answer the points that have been mentioned judging and directing how policing is done. It really is a in broad terms by right hon. and hon. Members, but I case of power to the people in this respect. We have a begin by thanking my right hon. Friend the Member for proposal for a lay commissioner, not a police officer, to Leicester, East for the work on this matter that he has be elected for each constabulary force area. With regard done on the Committee. He will know that we have to the events of the past few weeks in this place, the been able to accept many of the recommendations, and public expect the governing classes—in the most general my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, who was the sense—to be more responsive, transparent and open. author of the Government’s response, acknowledged That expectation might also extend to large parts of not only that my right hon. Friend and his team did public service, including the health service and the tremendous work, but that their suggestions were sensible. police service. This debate needs to be had. We Conservatives We have been able to accept some of them but, as have our own model, the Liberal Democrats have a always, not all. However, I will continue to keep them separate model and the Labour Government have asked under review because I believe in examining problems the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside day by day. As hon. Members have said, the challenges (Mr. Blunkett) to do some work as well. In short, we all for policing change regularly. believe that the current police authority model, which is The hon. Member for Chesterfield, like my right hon. an indirectly-plus nominated model of 17 men and Friend the Member for Leicester, East, mentioned things women—with a slightly higher number in the London that are happening now that we would never have Metropolitan Police Authority—has to change, because considered 10, 11, 12 or 15 years ago, such as internet it is not delivering the clear line of accountability that grooming and contact, child sex trafficking, and even—dare the public require. It is not about what we politicians I say it?—gun and knife crime. When I was first elected and Members of Parliament think is needed, but what to the House 17 and a half years ago, such issues were the public require. It is important that there is another not on the radar of Members of Parliament. I know report in the coming months showing what further from my experience as the Minister with responsibility evidence the Committee has taken on a more direct, for prisons and probation that even during that time accountable model for holding the police service locally fresh challenges came before me that we had to examine to account. and deal with. This important report is a snapshot of This is an important debate and an important report. where we are now, but it will never be a static document. I have picked out some of the issues thrown up by this We will work on the issues that we have accepted, and report that particularly exercise Her Majesty’s Opposition. we will continue to be aware of those that we have I look forward to the Minister’s giving specific replies to rejected and today’s debate. The report addressed a some of the specific, although not exhaustive, questions range of issues that hon. Members have raised this that I have posed in this debate. afternoon, such as collaboration, police numbers, capacity performance indicators, reducing bureaucracy, improvements in technology, the need to increase 4.7 pm productivity and efficiency, diversity, alcohol and police The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. David numbers, all of which I will try to touch on. Hanson): May I thank colleagues for the consensual This morning, I had the privilege of addressing the and helpful way in which they have framed today’s Local Government Association for the first time as the debate? There are key issues that we need to address in Minister with responsibility for policing. I tried to set government, with the support of my right hon. Friend out some themes that are important for me to consider the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), as the during whatever time I have in this post. I am pleased Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, and the hon. that they were echoed by some of the themes in the Members for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) and for debate. Whatever is happening at the moment, local Chesterfield (Paul Holmes), as Opposition spokesmen. accountability is vital. The people who know best about You will understand, Mr. Williams, that I am in day policing in my constituency are not just the chief constable three of my tenure as Minister with responsibility for and those on the police authority, but the local basic security, counter-terrorism, crime and policing. I hope unit commander and beat managers. Sometimes the that my experience as Minister with responsibility for local community needs a better way of engaging with prisons, probation and youth justice will help me to the police on accountability. understand some of the complexities of the issues before My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced me. Having been involved in that work for the past two some weeks ago an examination of some of those issues and a half years, and having dealt with security issues in in a White Paper to be produced in the autumn. I have a a previous role in Northern Ireland, it is interesting to blank page for those issues. Sensible suggestions are 329WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 330WH

[Mr. David Hanson] communities believe that the police work for them. Helpful comments and suggestions were made today being debated across the board in all communities, and about the report. we will consider them and return to the accountability It is important to recognise—I am grateful for the issue during my tenure in this post. comments of all three Members who have spoken—that the police do a very good job. I spent Tuesday morning This morning, I mentioned visibility, which is extremely in Croydon with not just the borough commander and important. It was also mentioned by hon. Members this the local beat officers on an estate in Addington, but afternoon. That includes how to make policing visible, police community support officers. They were not only how to make people feel engaged, and how to show engaged in visible policing—walking and taking initiatives people locally what local police forces achieve. Partnership on the ground. They were in discussion with a local is also extremely important. In his report, Ronnie Flanagan, head teacher, and working with local neighbourhood to whom I pay tribute, indicated strongly that crime wardens and with teenage groups at the effective local reduction cannot be achieved only by the police. The youth club groups. In the evening, they were organising actions of the local council, the local fire brigade, Crystal Palace football club’s local activities. Such alternative neighbourhood wardens, community groups and local activities are important and should be recognised. Such representatives are as important as what the police do. a positive role is mirrored throughout England and This morning, I also mentioned delivery. We want Wales, often in difficult circumstances. The work of the positive outcomes for not just crime reduction. To police, community support officers and other people deliver, we must take on board the very points that have who give their time as councillors and officials is extremely been mentioned across the board today about bureaucracy. valuable. We also need to ensure that we have an efficient front We should never forget that all that work—the hon. line and that the whole system is about what happens on Member for Chesterfield touched on this—has real the front line, with support from chief constables and value on the ground. A key issue that was mentioned is Ministers down. We agree on some of the synergies, and perception. We cannot get away from the fact that crime although we might have different views on some issues, is down by 39 per cent., robbery has fallen by 18 per which will be open for debate, the common themes in cent., burglary is down, and car crime is down, but the report are accountability, visibility, partnership, delivery perception goes to the heart of all the issues that I and reducing bureaucracy, as they were in the contributions mentioned: visibility, accountability, delivery and ownership that I was happy to hear from the two Opposition of the problems and challenges in local areas. We should Front-Bench spokesmen. be proud of some of our successes, such as the 55 per cent. reduction in burglary over the past 12 years, but I An important issue that has permeated our debate is am acutely aware—this was particularly the case when public confidence in policing, and how we tackle that my car was stolen at Flint railway station—that when and ensure that justice is delivered. Right hon. and hon. crime happens to an individual, that is 100 per cent. for Members will know better than me—they have been the victim and their family, not in the context of a debating the matter longer than I have been in my new 55 per cent. reduction. We must examine how to build role—that the new relationship between the police and public consensus and understanding, and how to deal the public on the policing pledge provides an opportunity with such issues positively. to hold the police to account for what they need to do. A number of initiatives are driving things forward, We must consider how to respond to local expectations. such the youth crime action plan in 70 authorities, For the first time, the public can have a real and clear which has received lots of money. Only on Tuesday, expectation of the standards of service from the local London authorities received £4.5 million to tackle youth police. Communities, especially through neighbourhood and knife crime. We are trying to focus on key areas. We policing teams, should be able to see how we are working must build on a lot of the good work that is being done, positively on that. My constituency, which covers the and not only by the Home Office, for which I now have same police authority as yours in north Wales, Mr. Williams, responsibility, by bringing in other Departments—I am has crime mapping, which is helpful. We consider what trying to do that across Government, as the report we are doing in a local area to tackle crime on the suggests—including the Ministry of Justice, the Department ground. The hon. Member for Chesterfield said that for Children, Schools and Families, and the Department that is an important contribution, and it is important of Health, to tackle the issues holistically. generally. Hon. and right hon. Members, particularly my right A central question was how we consider targets. The hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East, have said Government have moved their position, perhaps because that addressing antisocial behaviour is key in this area. of contributions on targets. We have scrapped top-down Once again, the role of local councils, using a range of targets, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, tools and powers, is especially important in that regard. East and the hon. Members for Chesterfield and for Those tools and powers do not just include the well-tried Bury St. Edmunds said. That is a key to improving antisocial behaviour orders, acceptable behaviour contracts public confidence. The new single confidence target will and fixed penalty notices. Local councils also have a measure the success of the policing pledge, and ensure role as partners in this process, which the Select Committee that partnership working happens locally. report reflected on and encouraged, and we need to do more to promote that in the future. Jan Berry’s work on behalf of the Government to The three Members who spoke today all expressed examine bureaucracy is ongoing and important. It will particular concern about the issue of alcohol. They also be a key factor for me when ensuring that we streamline spoke about the need for us to look imaginatively at still further, as was Ronnie Flanagan’s work. Public how we can tackle some of the alcohol-driven crime confidence in the police will depend on how well that causes antisocial behaviour on the ground and 331WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 332WH leads, in many instances, to some of the hidden crimes for Bury St. Edmunds before that date but, then again, of domestic violence in the home that are extremely good ideas never have an ownership that cannot be serious and extremely worrying. taken by somebody else. For example, it was asked why we had not taken forward the plan for a minimum price for alcohol—my Keith Vaz: The Minister has been rattling through his right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East mentioned initiatives so quickly that he might have already dealt that in particular. He will know that the Government with this point. However, the hon. Member for Bury St. announced in December 2008 that we had decided not Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) raised a point that was also to proceed with that. However, that does not mean that raised in our report about Staffordshire and the need to alcohol, including alcohol sales and alcohol-related crimes, have good practice implemented immediately, so that is not important. Hon. Members will know that we have when a police force is doing a good job, we can share recently published a further document for discussion on that practice rather than waiting to do so. alcohol sales in general—I have a copy here. It was launched only two weeks ago and covers a range of Mr. Hanson: Once again I am grateful to my right consultations on how we can examine some of the key hon. Friend. I am trying to give an overview of some of issues involved in alcohol-related behaviour and crime. the activities that have been undertaken to date. He will We have looked at important issues, which have been know—again, this point was mentioned earlier by the mentioned, relating to happy hour drinking, women-only hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds—that the pilots drinking nights, alcohol sales in general, and off and that were conducted last year in Surrey, Leicestershire, on-trade premises. We are also looking at how we can Staffordshire and the west midlands have been shown to promote responsible sales of alcohol, rather than the have benefits. We certainly need to look at those pilots irresponsible sales that cause us great difficulty. I hope very positively. Our challenge is to build on that work that there will be a solid debate about those issues and I by working with Jan Berry and, without making any am certain that we will discuss them in due course—whether other commitments, I undertake to look at the issues in this Chamber and elsewhere—as we have done in arising from this debate in the next couple of days. As I the past. have said, three days into the job, I need to make some assessment so that the points I have made have greater It is important that we recognise that we should not validity. penalise the many people who drink responsibly. However, I am acutely aware of the fact that for young people, in Keith Vaz: I am most grateful to the Minister for some cases, and for many older people alcohol can be a giving way a second time. He started off with Minister- driver of crime and poor behaviour. We are considering speak, clearly because he has been in his new role for proposing discretionary conditions, including further two days, and ended up by saying that he will look at restrictions on drinks promotions, which I have already this issue of good practice in the next couple of days. It mentioned. We are also looking at simple issues, such as sounded like the fastest timetable in history. Obviously safer alternatives to glassware and allowing local transport we do not want the Minister to make a decision today, information to be displayed in licensed premises, which in the middle of this debate. All that I ask is that he would help individuals to avoid one of the big problems revisits this issue quickly, because good practice needs that I came across as a Justice Minister: the consequences to be put into effect immediately. So, if he could revisit of death and injury caused by drink-driving. Although that issue and perhaps write to me in the near future, I there are challenges, we can meet them, and I will would be most grateful. welcome debate about them in the future. The question of bureaucracy in policing has been Mr. Hanson: I will give my right hon. Friend a mentioned—indeed, it has been a common theme in the positive and solid undertaking that I will look at all the debate. Through the work of Jan Berry and Ronnie suggestions that have been made in this debate. I will Flanagan, we have opportunities to address that issue. I also read the debate when it is published in Hansard.I am extremely aware that we must continue to look at will look at the points that have been made and try to how we can free up the police from the bureaucracy that reflect on them. As the Minister—the person where the they face as part of the work that they undertake. It is buck stops—I have to make judgments on these issues, important that police officers have the skills, opportunities with colleagues, including officials. Three days into this for development and support to concentrate on their job, I have a range of issues to look at and a range of primary duties, which are detecting and driving down assessments to make. However, I know that I also have a crime, increasing public confidence and helping to support maximum of 11 months in this post until there is a the community. We must also ensure that they not only general election. In that time, I can look at these key use their own skills and abilities but, as has been mentioned, issues and I will have an opportunity to affect some of make greater use of quality IT, where appropriate, and them; I have already tried to flag up some of them to support mechanisms so that we reduce red tape and give those right hon. and hon. Members who are here today. them the discretion locally to undertake their activities Those issues are related to accountability, visibility, positively. bureaucracy and how we deliver in due course. Hon. Members will know that the Government have I want to try to cover some of the other points that scrapped activity-based costings. We have also stopped, have been mentioned in the debate. The hon. Member or significantly reduced, 36 data collection requirements for Chesterfield talked in great detail about the issue of and supported all forces to streamline crime recording funding. Again, that is an issue that I must look at in the processes. Furthermore, as has already been mentioned, next few weeks and months, to address some of the key we scrapped the lengthy stop and account form on 1 challenges that we face. We have a commitment to January 2009, which I think has been genuinely welcomed. police finances for 2010 and 2011. The Minister of It might well have been suggested by the hon. Member State, Department for Children, Schools and Families, 333WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 334WH

[Mr. Hanson] hope will ultimately be the gaining of consensus on how we deal with the issue. From my perspective, we need to my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, when he was have consensus on the issue if we can. in my post, previously gave commitments that the financial I have a couple of further points, which are a bit settlement for the police will not be reopened. This year random but which relate to valuable points made by alone, about £9.5 billion is being spent in England and hon. Members during the debate. My right hon. Friend Wales on addressing the issues that we have discussed. I talked about whether Airwave would prove to be a do not know what the public finances will be in the success. There will be Airwave requirements in line with future and I do not know what will ultimately happen in Olympic security plans. We are considering the final relation to decisions that are taken downstream. However, requirement, and that is nearly complete. I will certainly there is certainly a commitment to maintain the current keep him informed of progress on that and I look position on police funding for the future. forward to working with him in relation to it. As part of our discussions, some difficult decisions have been taken about capping, in relation to police My right hon. Friend also mentioned the forthcoming funding in both Surrey and in Derbyshire. We have inquiry, which I welcome and will have to participate in, made it very clear, in relation to the Department for on the role of SOCA and the general objectives with Communities and Local Government and previously in regard to its future effectiveness. SOCA has brought relation to the Home Office, in every year since 2004-05 together key players in relation to direct practices and that capping action would be taken if the Government working practices to tackle serious organised crime. judged that there was a need for that action. Again, that Self-evidently, we need to keep it under review. There is a debate that we have had today. will shortly be changes in part of the leadership of SOCA with the retirement of Sir Stephen Lander. I will The hon. Gentleman made legitimate points about certainly welcome the contribution of the Select Committee funding issues. We have to examine those issues across in putting issues to us, but with regard to issues on a Government and consider how they are being dealt day-to-day basis of serious organised crime of a pan- with. However, we have taken decisions in the past that European nature, I have already, in my first few days in reflect the fact that there is a need, in certain circumstances, this post, seen very interesting operations involving to cap, in order to protect taxpayers from excessive SOCA. increases in spending to deal with these issues. Ultimately, this is all related to the discussions that we must have The hon. Member for Chesterfield talked about whether about the accountability issues and the other issues that we should give the collection of crime statistics to an may arise in relation to the forthcoming White Paper. independent body. When I was in the Ministry of Justice, These are real issues, which I know the hon. Gentleman there was a Chinese wall between Ministers and the will continue to press me on in general terms. Department in relation to many of the statistics that I saw and that were published by the Government—this The hon. Gentleman will know that we hope to applies not just to the MOJ, but to the Home Office—even undertake a consultation in the very near future in though the Department often produced some of the relation to the funding formula for next year. We will statistics. There are already strict rules on statistics. look at that funding formula as part of the wider Home Office statistics in particular are designated national comprehensive spending review for the next three years. statistics and therefore, like MOJ statistics, are subject That is an important issue that will remain on the table to strict standards that prevent political comment on and up for discussion, and there will be a range of views them before their publication. Often I have had statistics expressed about it in due course. as a Minister that are about the performance of the I think that the hon. Gentleman suggested that there Department for which I am responsible and that I have may well be some central direction to the funding that seen only 24 hours in advance of their publication. goes to police authorities. In fact, there is no central There is independence already and the Government direction of any note on those issues. All the money is have strengthened that with the establishment of the unhypothecated. Police authorities and chief constables Statistics Authority—an independent body at arm’s can spend it in whichever way they wish. That is part of length from Government. the localism that I shall continue to encourage. It involves The migration impact fund that was mentioned does people looking at what is happening at local level and exist in full. All police authorities can apply to it for how that can be undertaken in a way that meets the funds. We have spent £70 million over two years in the needs. UK. Many local services are submitting proposals for The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds raised a funding, and the Government are considering that. couple of other key issues that I want to touch on. The I think that I have covered the vast majority of the first relates to police charging. I acknowledge that charging points that I wished to cover. My final point relates to processes need to be reformed. My predecessor committed what my right hon. Friend said about the current to that in the past. That is why we introduced statutory investigation with regard to the allegations that have charging in the first place, and that has generally been a been made about Metropolitan police officers in Enfield. success. We will work with Jan Berry to consider those He will know that as a Minister I am not able to issues still further. comment on that at the moment. The matter has gone With regard to the RIPA code of practice, a public to the Independent Police Complaints Commission for consultation is under way, as the hon. Gentleman will investigation. I know that the IPCC will examine it in know. I need to examine the detailed results of that detail. I will obviously reflect in due course on the consultation. I will have to make decisions and would outcome of the investigation, but self-evidently there welcome a contribution outside this Chamber from the are serious allegations that need to be investigated and hon. Members present, who are key players in what I the IPCC is best placed to do that investigation. 335WH Policing in the 21st Century11 JUNE 2009 Policing in the 21st Century 336WH

I will read the record of the debate in detail and for taking part in the debate. I am getting a bit worried reflect on all the points that have been made. If I have about home affairs. We had a very consensual debate on not answered points raised today, I will consider them knife crime earlier this week, and here we have that and send letters to hon. Members who are here today. I again. Of course, it will not be the norm, but we have give a commitment, as the new Minister, with regard to raised a number of points. I paid tribute to members of the great challenge that we face. We have an opportunity my Committee when I spoke on the last occasion, and I in the next few weeks and months to consider how we should like now to pay tribute to the Select Committee can improve accountability, visibility and delivery and staff, who worked extremely hard in the preparation of ensure that we make efforts collectively that reduce the report. All the credit goes to hon. Members, because crime and increase public confidence. we sign these reports, but the staff work very hard. As I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the report. I the Clerk to the Committee has come into the Chamber look forward to appearing before him again, as I did on, and is at the Table, and as she keeps us all in order in the I think, three occasions as an MOJ Minister, and I look Committee, I think that that is where I should leave my forward to friendly battles but also co-operation with contribution. We will return to this issue again, because the hon. Members for Bury St. Edmunds and for policing is a crucial aspect of Government policy. I look Chesterfield and their respective shadow Secretaries of forward to debating these subjects again with the hon. State. I thank you for your chairmanship today, Members in the future. Mr. Williams. Question put and agreed to. 4.36 pm Keith Vaz: With the leave of the House, I shall respond. I do not intend to detain the House. I just want to thank 4.37 pm all right hon. and hon. Members and shadow spokespersons Sitting adjourned.

43WS Written Ministerial Statements11 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

data relating to environmental monitoring, up to now Written Ministerial funded by EU research framework programme and ESA. Statements The Competitiveness Council reached a political agreement on a regulation providing a legal framework for large-scale research facilities supported by a number Thursday 11 June 2009 of countries (European Research Infrastructure Consortia or ERICs). All member states who had reservations on the tax exemptions point lifted them at Council. However Spain and Portugal said they intended to vote against BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY the draft regulation as they felt an ERIC should initially REFORM be allowed to operate with only two member states (rather than needing three at all times as in the Commission’s Competitiveness Council, Brussels proposal). Ministers welcomed the emphasis being placed by the presidency on evaluation and impact assessment and The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation there was consensus on the need to strengthen evaluation and Skills (Mr. David Lammy): The following statement and impact assessment for both European and national provides information on the Competitiveness Council research funding programmes. The Council also adopted which took place in Brussels on 28-29 May 2009. The conclusions on this subject. In the debate the UK said industry session of the Council took place on 28 May, that a much better understanding of results achieved and was chaired by Vladimir Tošovský, Czech Industry and impact assessment were needed to allow research Minister. The research session of the Council was held funding programmes to be more effectively geared towards on 29 May and was chaired by Miroslava Kopicová supporting the development of the European research Czech Minister of Education, Youth and Sports. The area, boost European competitiveness and tackle major UK was represented by me, both for the intellectual societal challenges. property items in the afternoon of 28 May, and for several research items on 29 May. The Deputy permanent The Council also adopted conclusions on the first representative to the European Union, Andrew Lebrecht, steps towards realising the vision for the European research represented the UK when the Minister was not in area in 2020 and on the development of the regional attendance. dimension of research infrastructures. The first item that I covered on 28 May was the Under Any Other Business, the presidency highlighted Community patent and single patent court. The Council its recent conference on issues relating to researcher discussed a progress report on these issues under the careers and mobility. The Commission announced it Czech presidency, and took a decision on whether to planned to launch a feasibility study for a pan-European refer legal questions concerning the court’s structure to pension fund for researchers. the European Court of Justice. The UK advocated The Commission updated Ministers on plans to deepen referring these questions to the Court of Justice as soon European research ties with Russia through association as possible, and urged a rapid reply from the court. to FP7 and provided an update on the ITER fusion Doing so would allow us to make progress on creating a research project. more efficient, affordable and responsive European patent system, which would help boost European innovation and competitiveness. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES The Council agreed to consult the European Court of Justice. This creates a good starting point for Swedish Elective Home Education presidency ambitions for strong progress on a Community patent and single patent court. Under any other business, Germany raised copyright The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and and competition concerns with the Google books search Families (Ed Balls): On 19 January 2009 I asked Graham service. The UK recognised these concerns, but noted Badman to carry out a review of elective home education that new technologies present opportunities as well as in England. The terms of reference for the review risks for copyright owners and society and a measured emphasised the Government’s recognition of parents’ approach should be taken. The presidency invited the well established right to educate their children at home. Commission to explore impacts on EU authors and They also set out our commitment to keeping home propose action, if required, to protect their rights. educated children safe, and ensuring that they receive a The Competitiveness Council on 29 May was preceded suitable education. I am grateful to Graham Badman by “The Space Council” (an informal meeting of EU and the review team for conducting a thorough review and ESA ministers) which discussed the importance of which carefully considered extensive evidence provided innovation for the space sector as well as how innovation by home educators; local authorities (LAs); and in the space sector could boost European competitiveness. representatives from a wide range of organisations and The Space Council agreed a resolution on this (which individuals working with children and parents involved was subsequently formally adopted by the ESA and in home education. Competitiveness Councils). The Commission presented The terms of reference commissioned Graham Badman its proposal for a regulation providing community funding to investigate the barriers to LAs and other public and setting up a governance structure for the initial agencies in carrying out their safeguarding responsibilities; phase of the Global Monitoring for Environment and whether LAs were providing effective and appropriate Security (GMES)—an initiative to provide and pool support; and whether there was evidence of home education 45WS Written Ministerial Statements11 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS being used to cover child abuse. From this evidence, he Justice and Kenny MacAskill, Scottish Cabinet Secretary was asked to identify whether any changes were needed for Justice, attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. to the current regime of monitoring home education. The following issues were discussed: The review makes a compelling case for substantial The Council, starting in Mixed Committee with Norway, changes to the arrangements for supporting and monitoring Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, adopted conclusions home education. It recognises the wide range of on the future direction of the second generation of the philosophical and practical reasons that lie behind parents’ Schengen Information System. These conclusions propose decisions to home educate. It acknowledges that in that the development of SIS II continues on the basis of some cases home educated children have been withdrawn the current SIS II platform with stronger project from school under a range of difficult circumstances: management in place and milestones to assess progress. this is reflected in the relatively high proportion of The conclusions propose that a contingency plan based children with special educational needs who are home on the current SIS I platform be retained until tests educated, and other cases where children have been defined in the project milestones are successfully completed. bullied or had other experiences that leave them unable It was also agreed that any future decision on a move to to attend school. These children and families need the contingency plan would be taken by a qualified support from their local authorities in a way that enables majority in the Council. The UK supported the continued them to access appropriate advice and guidance, receive development of SIS II, noting the challenge always specialist services, and use extended school provision posed by such large scale IT projects to Governments and facilities such as leisure centres and libraries. The and the necessity for clear project management and review argues for fresh thinking and further consultation milestones, as outlined in the conclusions. with children, their families, local authorities and others The Commission then provided an update on the involved in home education to identify ways to commission implementation of the Visa Information System (VIS), services for this very diverse sector in order to support reminding Ministers that VIS could not start until all the best possible outcomes for the children concerned. participating member states were ready to connect (the The review also found evidence that there are a small UK does not participate in VIS). The Commission also number of cases where home educated children have provided an update on the geographical deployment of suffered harm because safeguarding concerns were not VIS, noting that it would prepare a draft decision, to be picked up, or not treated with sufficient urgency, particularly presented later in June. Dates for commencement would where parents were unco-operative or obstructed local be established by the Commission, on the basis of authority investigations. It sets out specific steps that member states’ readiness to transmit the relevant data. should be taken to address these risks as well as improving Ministers adopted conclusions on a co-ordinated EU the monitoring of the education provided: a compulsory approach to the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention registration scheme; a discretion to local authorities to centre. The conclusions put in place a framework for prohibit home education where there are safeguarding information-sharing to facilitate member states’ acceptance concerns; and the right for LA representatives to interview of former detainees from Guantanamo Bay. The home educated children to establish whether they are conclusions also outline that it is for individual member safe and receiving a suitable education. I am today states to decide whether they accept ex-detainees. The launching a public consultation on these proposals so Council noted that primary responsibility for the closure that they can be introduced to Parliament at the earliest of Guantanamo rests with the US, but the EU should possible opportunity. do its part to assist this process. The UK supported the Copies of the review and our initial response have conclusions, highlighting that closure of Guantanamo been placed in the House Libraries. was a key issue not only for transatlantic relations but also for the radicalisation and recruitment of potential terrorists. Getting the message right was important in HEALTH adding to the safety and security of citizens by countering extremism and the conclusions were a step forward in Department of Health Annual Report 2009 that regard. After the Mixed Committee there was a political debate on the package of proposals presented by the The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): Commission this year to take forward development of The Department’s annual report for 2009 (Cm 7593) the Common Asylum System. The package includes was laid before Parliament today. proposals on the Dublin and Eurodac Regulations, the Copies are in the Library of the House and are Asylum Reception Conditions Directive, a European available for hon. Members from the Vote Office. Support Office and Refugee Fund. The UK has opted in to all of the proposals except the one on Asylum Reception Conditions. The Commission said that more HOME DEPARTMENT work and discussion was needed to establish the right direction for this package and this would be taken Justice and Home Affairs Council forward at working group level. The UK outlined its vision on what the EU should be doing in this area, stressing that the key aim had to be the protection of The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil genuine refugees, by deciding their claims as swiftly as Woolas): A Justice and Home Affairs Council was held possible, and the prevention of abuse of the asylum in Luxembourg on 4 and 5 June 2009. My noble Friend system by people making false claims to be refugees. Admiral Lord West, Parliamentary Under-Secretary External efforts were vital too: to improve protection for Security and Counter-Terrorism; my noble Friend beyond the EU’s shores and tackle illegal immigration Lord Bach, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for more effectively with source and transit countries. 47WS Written Ministerial Statements11 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

In Council and then continuing over lunch, Ministers The UK welcomed these proposals in principle while held a debate on illegal immigration in the Southern expressing the hope that the scope of the civil law Mediterranean. The Commission expressed its view proposal would be expanded in due course. that the EU had to act and member states must be ready The presidency presented the draft report on the to assist each other, including through a pilot internal setting up of a common frame of reference for European relocation project. The work of the EU Borders Agency Contract Law, confirming that the project would create (FRONTEX) work should be enhanced through a local a non-binding “toolkit” for legislators. office in the Mediterranean and more involvement on returns. Enhanced dialogue with third countries was The presidency presented their achievements to the vital too: co-operation with Libya was already delivering Council on e-justice over the past six months including results. The EU needed to ensure protection was improved work on the e-justice portal and video-conferencing. throughout the world; and a second Tripoli conference The Government welcome this work and hope to see it on tackling illegal immigration through East Africa feature as one of the priorities in the work programme should be held. in Justice and Home Affairs over the next five years. The Commission provided an update on the guidelines The presidency informed the Council about the first on the implementation and application of the Free reading deal on ship source pollution that had been Movement Directive (2004/3 8/EC) advising that they agreed with the European Parliament on 5 May. would be adopted on 2 July. Follow-up work would The presidency presented the final report on the continue at expert level to help tackle abuse. The UK mutual evaluation of the operation of the European supported the view that these guidelines would be crucial Arrest Warrant (EAW). On behalf of the UK Lord in assisting member states and their courts to interpret Bach congratulated the presidency on the report, and the legislative framework and welcomed the inclusion stressed in particular the importance of taking forward of criminality and abuse of residence rights in the work on proportionality. The EAW had been a real guidelines. The UK also emphasised the need for better success; however issuing EAWs for low-level offences monitoring, to inform future decisions on action to had significant operational consequences. The UK looked tackle abuse. forward to work being taken under the Swedish presidency and UK officials were ready to assist. The EU counter-terrorism co-ordinator, Gilles de Kerchove, gave oral reports on the implementation of The presidency outlined the progress that had been the EU strategy and action plan to combat terrorism, made during the early stages of negotiations on the progress made over the last six months and priorities for Commission’s proposals to combat sexual exploitation the future. These highlighted the need to continue working of children and human trafficking. closely together to maintain the momentum of co-operation The presidency presented work on the implementation at EU level. He outlined three key regions where focus of the non-binding Resolution on Judicial Training, was needed going forward; Pakistan, the Sahel and the aimed at improving the training of judges in EU law Arabian Peninsula, stressing the importance of the and legal systems. Commission’s Stability Instrument funding in supporting The presidency reported on the recent conference work in these regions. about succession and wills held in Prague in April. It The presidency updated the Council on three EU had been successful in gaining a clearer view of all the external relations meetings held recently between the troika issues related to succession and wills in a European of the current and incoming presidency and the context. The Commission expects to bring forward a Commission and the US, Russian Federation and the proposal during the Swedish presidency. Ukraine. Outcomes of these meetings would continue Under any other business, the presidency drew the to be discussed in relevant working parties. Council’s attention to the responses that they had received Under any other business, the Commission presented from member states about Justice Ministries’ experiences a report on visa liberalisation in the Western Balkans. A of the financial crisis. They also updated the Council on full evaluation would be undertaken in July by the the status of negotiations on the free trade agreement Commission and proposals then made. Attention was between the EU and Korea. Slovenia presented information also drawn to a recent Commission communication on about the “Beyond Winning” project which is being run disaster prevention, along with a parallel communication by the Alternative Dispute Resolution in Rome. The on disaster prevention in developing countries. The project is intended to facilitate the use of mediation in communication supplemented those activities carried cross-border cases. Slovenia announced that it had just out at national level, by improving knowledge, creating taken over the Chairmanship of the Council of Europe links between stakeholders, and increasing the efficiency and would be holding a conference on procedural rights of existing mechanisms. Finally, the incoming Swedish in October. presidency noted that Home Affairs Ministers would be invited to meet in October at Europol to celebrate its 10th anniversary and consider the future of EU police Belarus Agreement co-operation in the context of the next five-year JHA work programme. On day two of the Justice and Home Affairs Council The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil the presidency presented two proposed regulations providing Woolas): The Government are today announcing the mechanisms for negotiation and conclusion of bilateral conclusion of an agreement between the United Kingdom agreements with third countries in certain areas of civil and the Government of Belarus in respect of the travel and family law, where there is external Community of children affected by the Chernobyl incident to the competence. The Council agreed the texts of both proposals. United Kingdom on charity-sponsored respite visits. 49WS Written Ministerial Statements11 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

On 13 October 2008 President Lukashenko of Belarus GOVERNMENT EQUALITIES issued a decree which suspended permission for children affected by the Chernobyl incident to travel abroad for Equality Bill: A Consultation respite visits. Since this date the UK Border Agency and the British Ambassador in Minsk have been in close contact with the Belarusian Government to negotiate The Minister of State, Government Equalities Office an agreement to see this ban lifted in respect of children (Maria Eagle): The Equality Bill, currently before travelling to the United Kingdom. The Belarus request Parliament, will introduce a new single Equality Duty that the United Kingdom should enter into such a which will bring together the three existing race, written agreement was not related to any specific concerns disability and gender equality duties and extend to cover in relation to previous United Kingdom visits. age, sexual orientation, religion or belief and gender The agreement, which entered into force on 22 May, reassignment in full. The Equality Duty will be supported allows for the immediate resumption of visits by Belarusian by a number of specific duties, to be set out in secondary children under the age of 14. It will remain in force for legislation, which will help public authorities in the the next five years and will be automatically extended better performance of the duty. by five year periods thereafter. In June 2008, Government said we would consult on The agreement will enable the highly worthwhile our policy proposals for specific duties. The document work by UK charities in this area to continue and for we are publishing today sets out our proposals and asks many thousands more children to visit the United Kingdom for comments. The consultation period will run until in the years to come and to receive the benefits of a September 2009. temporary period of rest and recuperation. I am placing copies of this document in the Libraries of both Houses. Copies will also be available on the Government Equalities Office website at: www.equalities. JUSTICE gov.uk

Legal Advice WORK AND PENSIONS

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria Right to Control (Disabled People) Eagle): My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Lord Bach, has made the following written ministerial statement: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work On December 4, I announced that I was asking my officials to and Pensions (Jonathan Shaw): In 2005, the Government lead a short study which would bring together the evidence about made public their commitment to work towards equality the issues facing the advice sector on the ground. I asked them to for disabled people by 2025. Since then we have come a examine: long way but, as many disabled people know, we still The impact of the recession and the demand for civil legal have a long way to go. Part of this ongoing commitment advice. is our plan to legislate for a Right to Control for The impact of civil legal advice fixed fees on local providers— disabled people. Disabled people have told us that many financially and in terms of the type of work they are taking on. of them do not have the choice or control over their The initial experience of Community Legal Advice Centres, lives that non-disabled people take for granted. This including the impact on other providers in the area. lack of choice and control is a key barrier to participating Trends in funding from sources other than the Community and contributing as equal citizens. Powers contained in Legal Service, including local authority funding, national lottery funding, charities, central Government Departments, and others. the Welfare Reform Bill, which is currently going through Parliament, recognise that disabled people are the experts Since my announcement, the study team have held meetings with relevant bodies and interested parties, and visited advice in their own lives. We have worked closely with disabled providers and funders in Bangor, Bristol, Caernarfon, Cardiff, people and their organisations to develop this right, Cornwall, Cumbria, the East Riding of Yorkshire, the London including with our Advisory Group, chaired by Baroness Boroughs of Camden and Wandsworth, Manchester, Norwich, Jane Campbell. Plymouth, Portsmouth and Tyne and Wear. These meetings provided Today, with the publication of the consultation paper invaluable information about what is happening on the ground “Making choice and control a reality for disabled people: and about the views of those whose day-to-day task is to help those suffering from legal problems. Consultation on the Right to Control”, we are launching our consultation on the Right to Control. This paper We have been assisted in this task by a steering group including members of the bodies representing the not for profit advice has been co-produced with input from disabled people, sector and solicitors in private practice, as well as a range of other independent living experts and other stakeholders. The interested parties and Government Departments. I am very grateful consultation exercise will ensure that the trailblazers are for the help we have received from the steering group, and from designed to reflect the challenges of local implementation, the helpful and constructive attitude they have taken throughout while delivering real choice and control for disabled the study. people. I look forward to working with the steering group to identify The consultation will end on Wednesday, 30 September the steps we should take to implement the study’s recommendations. It is my intention that a full action plan will be prepared and 2009. published in September. I shall keep both Houses informed of The consultation documents are available on the developments in this very important area of work. Office for Disability Issues website at: www.odi.gov.uk/ Copies of the report will be placed in the Libraries of both right-to-control. Copies of the document will be placed Houses. in the House Library. 933W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 934W

Mr. Woolas: The e-Borders system will not negatively Written Answers to affect travellers who hold dual nationality. Data from travel documents presented by dual nationals on inbound Questions and outbound journeys will be transmitted to e-Borders and screened against watchlists as normal. Key facts, such as an individual’s date of birth, will remain the Thursday 11 June 2009 same, irrespective of the travel document they use. Any discrepancies will continue to be addressed by UK Border Agency staff at the border.

HOME DEPARTMENT Departmental Data Protection Animal Experiments

Dr. Palmer: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many generic licences issued the Home Department how many notifications his under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 are Department made to the Information Commissioner in in operation; how many designated establishments hold the year ended 30 April 2009 in respect of the loss or such licences; how many generic licences were extant in mishandling of personal information or data; what was (a) 2007 and (b) 2008; how many procedures were notified in each such case; and how many individuals conducted under those licences in each of those years; were the subjects of personal information or data in and if he will make a statement. [278252] respect of which such notifications were made. [278719]

Mr. Alan Campbell: For the purposes of this question Mr. Woolas: Under the mandatory requirements of we have taken ‘generic licences’ to refer to thematic the Data Handling Report published on 25 June 2008, licences issued for the testing for regulatory purposes of the Home Office is required to give a summary report specific classes of test materials in line with specified on data breaches reported to the Information Commissioner regulatory requirements. The Home Office does not in our annual resource accounts. record information on such licences separately, but we The Home Office has published details of the protected have carried out a special exercise to extract the information personal data related incidents notified to the Information requested. We estimate that there are currently 71 ‘generic Commissioner’s Office in 2007-08 in its resource accounts licences’ extant and that there were 67 at 31 December published on 8 August 2008 (a copy of which is in the 2008 and 65 at 31 December 2007. The annual statistical House Library). We will be publishing information on return for 2007, the latest year for which figures are any personal data security breaches reported to the available, indicates 183,909 procedures were conducted Information Commissioner for the 2008-09 reporting during 2007 under the licences identified as generic that year before Parliament rises in July. The information is were in force at 31 December 2007. currently being compiled and is to be audited and Borders: Personal Records verified before it is laid before Parliament. In 2008-09, the Home Office made two notifications Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the to the Information Commissioner. One related to the Home Department what percentage of coaches PA consulting data loss incident, which included entering the UK will be required to have all their information set out in my predecessor’s formal notification passengers disembarked for immigration checks under to the Information Commissioner (a copy of which is in the e-borders system; and if she will make a statement. the House Library) about the number of individual [278543] subjects affected. The other was a potential incident in the UK Border Agency involving the loss of a data stick Mr. Woolas: All passengers seeking entry or admission on UKBA premises. The data stick was subsequently to the UK are required to provide evidence of their found at an internal location so this was not in fact a nationality and identity, which is checked against the notifiable incident. UK’s watchlist. Under e-borders, carriers will be required to provide biographic and travel document information James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for in advance of travel. the Home Department how many officials in (a) his This advance passenger check will allow for a significant Department and (b) its agencies have been (i) disciplined increase in the volume of coach passengers who can be and (ii) dismissed for (A) breaches of data protection subsequently checked at the border, without disembarking requirements and (B) inappropriate use of personal or from the coach. sensitive data in the last 12 months. [278720] A pilot scheme is operating with one particular coach company and we continue to develop the best operating Mr. Woolas: The information requested is set out in models, in discussion with maritime, rail and coach the following table: operators. Disciplined Dismissed Jeremy Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the HO UKBA IPS CRB HO UKBA IPS CRB Home Department what recent assessment he has Breaches 0 1—8001—70 made of the likely operation of the e-borders system in of data respect of UK nationals who hold dual nationality. protection [278759] requirements 935W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 936W

Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency has contracts Disciplined Dismissed with G4S Justice and Care Services, Serco Home Affairs HO UKBA IPS CRB HO UKBA IPS CRB and Molynes International Security to escort individuals Inappropriate 1— 1—001—01—0who are being removed from the United Kingdom. The use of value of contracts between the UK Border Agency and personal or its escorting suppliers is commercially sensitive and sensitive cannot therefore be disclosed. data 1Less than five. Domestic Violence Note: Where there have been less than five such cases it is the policy of the Home Office to confine this information on grounds of Julie Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for the confidentiality. Home Department what contribution (a) HM Treasury and (b) the Department for Work and Pensions has Departmental ICT made towards his Department’s consultation on Together We Can End Violence Against Women and Girls. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State [278672] for the Home Department with reference to the answer of 3 November 2008, Official Report, column 30W, on Mr. Alan Campbell: The consultation document departmental ICT, when he expects all of his “Together We can End Violence Against Women and Department’s IT systems to be fully compliant with Girls” was considered and cleared by the Domestic ISO 27001 under the new standard set by the data Affairs Committee which includes representation from handling report published in June 2008. [278612] both Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions. Mr. Woolas: All IT systems across Government are subject to Cabinet Office approved policies and procedures Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for for Information Security Management which are fully the Home Department what steps his Department is compliant with the controls in ISO 27001 and also taking to ensure adequate funding for specialist voluntary incorporate the recommendations from the data handling sector organisations dealing with violence against women. report published in June 2008. Compliance is assessed [278805] via a regime known as accreditation. All IT systems and networks within the Home Office Mr. Alan Campbell: In general, funding decisions for are subject to this continual accreditation process as local services are determined by local commissioners they enter service for the first time or when significant based on local areas identifying needs. These are then changes are made to existing systems; there is also a included in their priorities for improvement with outcomes process of periodic review of all accredited systems. specifying how the issues will be addressed and how they contribute to wider national aims. Addressing domestic and sexual violence will be a key priority in Departmental Internet helping local partnerships to deliver fully on the public service agreement requirements. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The consultation “Together We Can End Violence the Home Department how much his Department has Against Women and Girls” closed on 29 May 2009. A spent on the maintenance of its website in each year key theme for consultation was the promotion of better since 1997. [278231] consistency and quality of provision of services for victims of violence against women and girls. This work Mr. Woolas: The cost of maintaining Home Office will be taken forward during development of a cross- websites (i.e. hosting, licensing, domain registration, Government strategy. and updates, but excluding staff costs) has been as Among other initiatives, the Home Office provides follows: £3.5 million to regional Government offices who then allocate it locally to domestic and sexual violence services. £ Educational Accreditation Bodies 2006-07 750,100 2007-08 620,000 2008-09 577,000 Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much his Department paid to Prior to 2006, costs were embedded in other educational accreditation bodies in each of the last five communications budgets and could not be separately years. [278545] extracted, other than at disproportionate cost. Mr. Woolas: The Home Office, including the Identity and Passport Service and the Criminal Records Bureau, Deportation: Private Sector has not made any payments to educational accreditation bodies. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 1 June Entry Clearances: Tourists 2009, Official Report, column 154W, on deportation: private sector, with which three operators the UK Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Border Agency (UKBA) has contracts; and how much for the Home Department how many tourist visas were UKBA spent on those contracts in 2008. [278597] issued to persons of each nationality in each of the last 937W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 938W four years; how many such visas were issued to children; including the number issued to persons under the age of and what estimate she has made of the number of such 18, is shown in the following tables. I refer my hon. children who overstayed their visa. [269160] Friend to the answer I gave on 20 April 2009, Official Report, columns 175-76W. Mr. Woolas: The number of tourist visas issued to each nationality in each of the calendar years 2005-08,

Other visit vitas issued 2005-08 by nationality 2005 2006 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Afghanistan 804 175 979 1,035 320 1,355 Albania 3,354 485 3,839 2,777 485 3,262 Algeria 5,661 446 6,107 6,238 1,027 7,265 Andorra 2 — 2 4 — 4 Angola 2,499 308 2,807 2,332 304 2,636 Antigua and Barbuda 5 1 6 4 1 6 Argentina 35 — 35 24 — 24 Armenia 1,114 74 1,188 1,130 95 1,225 Australia 298 3 301 365 — 365 Austria — — — 3 1 4 Azerbaijan 2 930 252 3,182 3,498 265 3,763 Bahamas 2 — 2 3 1 4 Bahrain 4,437 1,317 6,754 5,081 1,585 6,666 Bangladesh 9,756 1,618 11,374 8,767 2,514 11,281 Barbados 17 3 20 18 — 18 Belarus 3,612 3,582 7,194 4,040 3,946 7,986 Belgium 3 — 3 1 — 1 Belize 4 — 4 2 1 3 Benin 373 27 400 371 34 405 Bermuda — — — — — — Bhutan 116 4 120 87 4 91 Bolivia 34 — 34 74 8 82 Bosnia and Herzegovina 2,353 198 2,551 2,260 243 2,503 Botswana 76 7 83 119 22 141 Brazil 301 21 322 347 13 360 British Citizen 36 1 37 25 3 28 British National Overseas 36 — 36 30 — 30 British Overseas Citizen 6 — 6 9 — 9 British Protected Person 4 — 4 — — — British Subject 7 — 7 2 — 2 Brunei 7 — 7 1 — 1 Bulgaria 13,715 939 14,654 14,676 1,349 16,025 Burkina 174 6 180 211 18 229 Burma (Myanmar) 665 40 705 524 89 613 Burundi 149 25 174 136 18 154 Cambodia 138 15 153 220 41 261 Cameroon 2,697 208 2,905 2,856 327 3,183 Canada 226 1 227 249 2 251 Cape Verde 114 10 124 142 14 156 Central African Republic 41 5 46 71 7 78 Chad 97 5 102 78 7 85 Chile 370 9 379 225 22 247 China 74 897 7,427 82,324 94,073 11,220 105,293 Colombia 10,111 1,239 11,350 10,287 1,821 12,108 Comoros 26 — 26 24 — 24 Congo 649 115 764 706 172 878 Costa Rica 1 — 1 7 2 9 Croatia 11,240 996 12,236 2,064 67 2,131 Cuba 1,358 44 1,402 1,632 50 1,682 Cyprus 261 74 335 397 240 637 Czech Republic 9 — 9 735 21 756 Democratic Republic of Congo 2,320 632 2,952 2,154 642 2,796 Denmark — — — 2 — 2 Dependant Territory —————— Djibouti 161 29 190 132 12 144 Dominica 4158311 939W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 940W

Other visit vitas issued 2005-08 by nationality 2005 2006 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Dominican Republic 1,336 136 1,472 1,170 139 1,309 East Timor (Timor-Leste) 1123—3 Ecuador 2,133 185 2,318 2,396 324 2,720 Egypt 18,973 2,183 21,156 20,282 2,506 22,788 El Salvador 16 2 18 9 — 9 Equatorial Guinea 194 10 204 183 5 188 Eritrea 458 57 515 417 90 507 Estonia 92 9 101 162 26 188 Ethiopia 2,779 284 3,063 1,829 157 1,986 Fiji 741 65 806 612 71 683 Finland — — — 8 4 12 France 9 1 10 21 4 25 Gabon 309 29 338 319 41 360 Gambia 2,322 397 2,719 1,992 485 2,477 Georgia 2,231 130 2,361 2,637 219 2,856 Germany 5 — 5 4 — 4 Ghana 11,942 1,709 13,651 10,807 2,372 13,179 Greece —————— Greenland —————— Grenada 6 — 6 8 — 8 Guatemala 7 1 8 17 — 17 Guinea 919 115 1,034 925 96 1,021 Guinea-Bissau 75 8 83 124 19 143 Guyana 1,764 304 2,068 1,921 399 2,320 Haiti 245 22 267 218 10 228 Honduras 7 — 7 17 — 17 Hong Kong 214 13 227 232 19 251 Hungary 521 42 563 363 33 396 Iceland 5 — 5 — — — India 169,722 19,137 188,859 191,902 29,431 221,333 Indonesia 11,025 1,233 12,258 11,500 1,418 12,918 Iran 13 401 1,362 14,763 15,438 3,678 19,116 Iraq 4,388 504 4,892 4,341 877 5,218 Ireland 3 — 3 5 4 9 Israel 147 6 153 101 6 107 Italy 4 — 4 3 — 3 Ivory Coast 1,318 143 1,461 1,414 211 1,625 Jamaica 3,548 210 3,758 3,527 635 4,162 Japan 551 4 555 687 5 692 Jordan 8,068 955 9,023 8,597 1,240 9,837 Kazakhstan 10,998 896 11,894 16,225 3,260 19,485 Kenya 5,610 440 6,050 5,709 1,272 6,981 Korea (North) 17 1 18 13 3 16 Kosovo —————— Kuwait 29,005 10,223 39,228 28,696 10,844 39,540 Kyrgyzstan 789 44 833 1,043 112 1,155 Laos 75 7 82 69 6 75 Latvia 125 6 131 108 17 125 Lebanon 7,933 650 8,583 8,108 965 9,073 Lesotho 2 — 2 6 1 7 Liberia 344 20 364 284 24 308 Libya 5,242 935 6,177 4,663 1,247 5,910 Lithuania 24 7 31 16 1 17 Luxembourg —————— Macau 8198—8 Macedonia 1,623 89 1,712 1,861 175 2,036 Madagascar 257 11 268 278 16 294 Malawi 117 16 133 1,008 165 1,173 Malaysia 105 3 108 78 6 84 Maldives 8 3 11 3 1 4 Mali 436 29 465 550 48 598 Malta 1 — 1 — — — Marshall Islands 2 — 2 — — — 941W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 942W

Other visit vitas issued 2005-08 by nationality 2005 2006 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Mauritania 264 10 274 272 32 304 Mauritius 338 48 386 763 108 871 Mexico 581 70 651 665 38 703 Micronesia — — — — — — Moldova 963 79 1,042 1,090 107 1,197 Mongolia 624 54 678 790 64 854 Montenegro —————— Montserrat — — — — — — Morocco 8,666 1,009 9,675 8,205 1,602 9,807 Mozambique 452 44 496 500 36 536 Namibia 7 2 9 10 — 10 Nauru —————— Nepal 2,234 163 2,397 2,538 256 2,794 Netherlands 22 1 23 10 1 11 New Zealand 131 3 134 75 1 76 Nicaragua 8 — 8 5 — 5 Niger 112 7 119 117 10 127 Nigeria 70,030 17,002 87,032 49,816 19,179 68,995 None 17 — 17 7 — 7 Norway 1 — 1 1 — 1 Oman 3,787 856 4,643 3,565 1,082 4,647 Other 873 136 1,009 866 176 1,042 Pakistan 51,797 11,848 63,645 42,865 19,415 62,280 Palestinian Authority 587 107 694 474 75 549 Panama 1 — 1 123 5 128 Papua New Guinea 6 — 6 4 — 4 Paraguay 3 — 3 1 — 1 Peru 3,172 230 3,402 3,652 255 3,907 Philippines 11,953 780 12,733 13,587 1,297 14,884 Poland 332 15 347 210 13 223 Portugal — — — 4 — 4 Qatar 5,185 2,373 7,558 7,439 3,799 11,238 Refugee (Art 1 1951 Convention) 833 165 998 733 247 980 Romania 22,135 1,907 24,042 24,899 2,471 27,370 Russia 92,377 16,765 109,142 105,008 11,014 116,022 Rwanda 292 40 332 392 31 423 Sao Tome And Principe 60 6 66 62 7 69 Saudi Arabia 21,253 7,757 29,010 25,757 9,605 35,362 Senegal 1,436 67 1,503 1,742 128 1,870 Serbia —————— Seychelles — — — 2 — 2 Sierra Leone 2,474 324 2,798 2,217 497 2,714 Singapore 19 — 19 27 — 27 Slovakia 160 15 175 183 10 193 Slovenia 66 8 74 20 2 22 Solomon Islands 1121—1 Somalia 457 60 517 357 76 433 South Africa 285 29 314 292 34 326 South Korea 59 5 64 121 4 125 Soviet Union 2 — 2 — — — Spain 4 1 5 10 5 15 Sri Lanka 11,534 1,520 13,054 9,680 3,481 13,161 St. Kitts and Nevis 1 — 1 2 2 St Lucia 10 — 10 14 1 15 St Vincent 3 — 3 7 1 8 Stateless (Art 1 1951 Convention) 881 165 1,046 792 225 1,017 Sudan 4,204 946 5,150 4,856 1,355 6,211 Surinam 203 8 211 151 9 160 Swaziland 12 — 12 9 — 9 Sweden 14 — 14 1 1 2 Switzerland 3 — 3 12 8 20 Syria 4,288 515 4,803 4,356 551 4,907 Taiwan 23,757 1,101 24,858 25,853 1,715 27,568 943W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 944W

Other visit vitas issued 2005-08 by nationality 2005 2006 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Tajikistan 188 8 196 291 34 325 Tanzania 3,433 336 3,769 3,345 395 3,740 Thailand 24,501 1,740 26,241 22,673 1,856 24,529 Togo 292 15 307 282 20 302 Tonga 2 — 2 — — — Trinidad and Tobago 148 8 156 64 21 85 Tunisia 3,476 359 3,835 2,837 462 3,299 Turkey 42 579 4,196 46,775 45,954 6,008 51,962 Turkmenistan 735 114 849 447 81 528 Uganda 3,548 265 3,813 3,692 446 4,138 Ukraine 17,317 2,960 20,277 20,111 3,379 23,490 United Arab Emirates 11,762 4,809 16,571 13,926 6,216 20,142 United Nations 74 — 74 66 — 66 United States 1,054 13 1,067 1,172 22 1,194 Unspecified Nationality 3 264 517 3,781 3,003 970 3,973 Uruguay 6 — 6 4 — 4 Uzbekistan 1,313 73 1,386 1,236 208 1,444 Vanuatu ——— 1— 1 Vatican 9 — 9 9 — 9 Venezuela 11 — 11 79 12 91 Vietnam 3,368 210 3,578 3,411 261 3,672 Western Samoa — — — 1 — 1 Yemen 1,914 545 2,459 2,098 569 2,667 Yugoslavia 10,097 865 10,962 11,058 1,479 12,537 Zambia 2,121 218 2,339 2,440 493 2,933 Zimbabwe 5,370 967 6,337 3,292 1,305 4,597 Grand total 965,056 147,440 1,112,496 1,009,875 192,969 1,202,844

2007 2008 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Afghanistan 710 277 987 744 279 1,023 Albania 2,561 466 3,027 2,515 640 3,155 Algeria 5,910 1,118 7,028 5,740 949 6,689 Andorra 5 — 5 — — — Angola 2,467 421 2,888 2,257 412 2 669 Antigua and Barbuda — — — 2 — 2 Argentina 34 — 34 11 — 11 Armenia 1,189 111 1,300 1,162 150 1,312 Australia 365 2 367 373 4 377 Austria 4 — 4 — — — Azerbaijan 3,303 409 3,712 3,080 605 3,685 Bahamas — — — 4 — 4 Bahrain 4,702 1,438 6,140 5,819 1,834 7,653 Bangladesh 6,255 2,456 8,711 6,473 2,168 8,641 Barbados 33 1 34 6 — 6 Belarus 3,686 3,991 7,877 4393 3,499 7,892 Belgium 11 1 12 7 — 7 Belize 4154—4 Benin 311 22 333 281 11 292 Bermuda — — — — — — Bhutan 82 17 99 62 2 64 Bolivia 95 4 99 11 1 12 Bosnia and Herzegovina 2,264 304 2,568 2,635 316 2,951 Botswana 94 17 111 58 5 63 Brazil 358 20 378 312 14 326 British Citizen 50 13 63 25 6 31 British National Overseas 22 — 22 24 — 24 British Overseas Citizen 2 — 2 6 — 6 British Protected Person 1 — 1 1 — 1 British Subject —————— Brunei 4 — 4 1 1 2 Bulgaria 144 6 150 68 8 76 945W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 946W

2007 2008 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Burkina 235 20 255 209 6 215 Burma (Myanmar) 721 69 790 706 73 779 Burundi 141 14 155 176 11 187 Cambodia 164 21 185 241 27 268 Cameroon 2,666 287 2,953 2,175 264 2,439 Canada 266 5 271 273 2 275 Cape Verde 134 10 144 83 8 91 Central African Republic 36 8 44 52 10 62 Chad 81 6 87 95 13 108 Chile 10—1010—10 China 96,982 14,134 111,116 77,919 12,261 90,180 Colombia 10,698 1,998 12,696 10,240 1,897 12,137 Comoros 16 — 16 34 — 34 Congo 527 90 617 438 106 544 Costa Rica 7 — 7 1 1 2 Croatia 181 13 194 136 1 137 Cuba 1,273 53 1,326 1,170 35 1,205 Cyprus 320 187 507 258 181 439 Czech Republic 1,320 70 1,390 199 7 206 Democratic Republic of Congo 2,005 503 2,508 1,433 364 1,797 Denmark 3142—2 Dependant Territory 1 — 1 — — — Djibouti 87 15 102 91 10 101 Dominica 3 — 3 3 1 4 Dominican Republic 1,318 199 1,517 963 86 1,049 East Timor (Timor-Leste) —————— Ecuador 2,169 319 2,488 1,835 282 2,117 Egypt 19,787 2,558 22,345 20,040 2,857 22,897 El Salvador 2 — 2 6 — 6 Equatorial Guinea 171 4 175 109 4 113 Eritrea 363 76 439 297 41 338 Estonia 81 2 83 28 2 30 Ethiopia 2,008 176 2,184 1,936 164 2,100 Fiji 811 60 871 594 49 643 Finland 13 5 18 6 4 10 France 34 5 39 23 1 24 Gabon 347 49 396 237 30 267 Gambia 1,534 388 1,922 1,251 333 1,584 Georgia 2,698 276 2,974 2,639 620 3,259 Germany 4 — 4 4 — 4 Ghana 9,559 2,024 11,583 8,837 1,862 10,699 Greece 14 1 15 20 — 20 Greenland —————— Grenada 6 — 6 2 — 2 Guatemala 11 1 12 12 2 14 Guinea 529 52 581 488 42 530 Guinea-Bissau 78 8 86 38 13 51 Guyana 1,653 313 1,966 568 81 649 Haiti 193 13 206 157 8 165 Honduras 8 — 8 1 — 1 Hong Kong 238 32 270 44 — 44 Hungary 189 22 211 118 31 149 Iceland 1 — 1 — 1 1 India 185,143 26,897 212,040 174,657 25,259 199,916 Indonesia 13,198 1,843 15041 11,871 1 561 13,432 Iran 12,653 3,217 15,870 10,869 2,765 13,634 Iraq 2,317 342 2,659 2,778 442 3,220 Ireland 3141—1 Israel 98 6 104 60 7 67 Italy 7292—2 Ivory Coast 1,204 176 1,380 1,181 182 1,363 Jamaica 3,767 750 4,517 3,867 769 4,636 Japan 421 8 429 452 10 462 947W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 948W

2007 2008 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Jordan 7,494 1,116 8,610 7,835 1,177 9,012 Kazakhstan 12,731 5,265 17,996 7,853 2,519 10,372 Kenya 5,616 1,201 6,817 5,948 1,200 7,148 Korea (North) 12 1 13 15 2 17 Kosovo 13619333063 Kuwait 25,207 8,681 33,888 28,587 10,269 38,856 Kyrgyzstan 758 104 862 484 63 547 Laos 66 6 72 87 8 95 Latvia 120 5 125 57 3 60 Lebanon 8,140 939 9,079 7,155 742 7,897 Lesotho 3 — 3 3 — 3 Liberia 235 22 257 254 18 272 Libya 4,304 1,245 5,549 5,317 1,392 6,709 Lithuania 31 6 36 10 2 12 Luxembourg 1 — 1 — — — Macau 5 — 5 3 — 3 Macedonia 2,027 154 2,181 1,976 223 2,199 Madagascar 308 26 334 312 22 334 Malawi 1,158 227 1,385 976 169 1,145 Malaysia 83 — 83 89 1 90 Maldives 2 — 2 5 — 5 Mali 385 25 410 410 25 435 Malta 2 — 2 1 — 1 Marshall Islands —————— Mauritania 173 16 189 158 7 165 Mauritius 635 105 740 585 71 656 Mexico 574 34 608 166 39 205 Micronesia — — — 1 — 1 Moldova 960 108 1,068 767 103 870 Mongolia 1,074 121 1,195 677 134 811 Montenegro 5 — 5 252 139 391 Montserrat — — — 1 — 1 Morocco 6,047 1,009 7,056 5,241 883 6,124 Mozambique 389 26 415 411 53 464 Namibia 10 — 10 5 — 5 Nauru 1 — 1 — — — Nepal 2,439 248 2,687 1,734 160 1,894 Netherlands 5 — 5 2 — 2 New Zealand 95 — 95 81 — 81 Nicaragua 6176—6 Niger 139 13 152 91 14 105 Nigeria 45,399 19,269 64,668 45,578 18,957 64,535 None 7 — 7 1 — 1 Norway ———671683 Oman 3,733 1,179 4,912 5,146 1,697 6,843 Other 761 139 900 1,713 367 2,080 Pakistan 28,194 13,344 41,538 26,507 11,510 38 017 Palestinian Authority 520 100 620 92 9 101 Panama 111 3 114 101 4 105 Papua New Guinea 3 — 3 — — Paraguay 2132—2 Peru 3,706 286 3,992 2,822 272 3,094 Philippines 12,872 1,408 14,280 12,530 1,356 13,886 Poland 214 60 274 64 3 67 Portugal 4 — 4 1 — 1 Qatar 6,778 4,093 10,871 8,067 4,733 12,800 Refugee (Art 1 1951 Convention) 542 147 689 440 129 569 Romania 369 18 387 353 20 373 Russia 104,478 11,960 116,438 97,915 20,461 118,376 Rwanda 445 50 495 493 25 518 Sao Tome And Principe 54 13 67 16 4 20 Saudi Arabia 27,477 9,501 36,978 33,606 12,597 46,203 Senegal 1,894 114 2,008 1,815 168 1,983 949W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 950W

2007 2008 Nationality Over 18 Under 18 Total Over 18 Under 18 Total

Serbia 232 26 258 621 55 676 Seychelles 3 2 6 — — — Sierra Leone 1,641 388 2,029 1,100 305 1,405 Singapore 27 — 27 26 — 26 Slovakia 120 6 126 71 6 77 Slovenia 74 9 83 45 3 48 Solomon Islands —————— Somalia 253 27 280 187 23 210 South Africa 199 20 219 293 53 346 South Korea 120 6 126 98 10 108 Soviet Union 3 — 3 3 — 3 Spain 7 3 10 4 — 4 Sri Lanka 8,023 3,038 11,061 7,757 2,607 10 364 St. Kitts and Nevis 1 — 1 1 — 1 St Lucia 11 — 11 8 2 10 St Vincent 4 — 4 1 1 2 Stateless (Art 1 1951 Convention) 595 148 743 479 126 605 Sudan 4,571 1,258 5,829 3,618 838 4,456 Surinam 157 45 202 109 7 116 Swaziland 3 — 3 3 1 4 Sweden 5 — 5 2 — 2 Switzerland 5 1 6 — 1 1 Syria 3,184 419 3,603 3,308 503 3,811 Taiwan 22,705 2,875 25,580 19,431 2,579 22,010 Tajikistan 257 39 296 263 21 284 Tanzania 3,416 501 3,917 3,144 365 3,509 Thailand 24,209 2,262 26,471 24,777 3,108 27 885 Togo 264 17 281 252 26 278 Tonga 3 — 3 — — — Trinidad and Tobago 125 4 129 137 16 153 Tunisia 2,864 370 3,234 2,414 593 3,007 Turkey 46,105 7,777 53,682 55,375 8,961 64,336 Turkmenistan 443 52 495 492 139 631 Uganda 3,888 498 4,386 3,782 577 4,359 Ukraine 21,034 3,851 24,885 19,143 4,975 24,118 United Arab Emirates 12,288 5,434 17,722 15,008 6,804 21,812 United Nations 57 — 57 30 — 30 United States 1 032 31 1,063 936 29 965 Unspecified Nationality 2,823 858 3,681 1,813 431 2,244 Uruguay 7183—3 Uzbekistan 1,021 61 1,082 1,210 199 1,409 Vanuatu ——— 1— 1 Vatican 12 — 12 5 — 5 Venezuela 55 2 57 50 4 54 Vietnam 3,721 277 3,998 3,983 410 4,393 Western Samoa 2 — 2 2 — 2 Yemen 1,745 538 2,283 1,477 434 1,911 Yugoslavia 10,092 1,598 11,690 10,259 1,977 12,236 Zambia 2,327 517 2,844 1,971 445 2,416 Zimbabwe 2,830 1,105 3,935 2,449 838 3,287 Grand total 916,752 184,882 1,101,634 879,067 192,958 1,072,025

Extradition: USA was paid in 10 cases which involved the extradition of UK citizens from England and Wales to the USA. It is David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the not otherwise possible to provide a complete or accurate Home Department what the cost to the public purse breakdown of costs incurred in individual extradition was of (a) legal aid and (b) other costs incurred in cases by each Government Department and its supporting respect of Article 20 of the Extradition Treaty in each agencies. In each agency involved, the cases were dealt case in which a British national has been extradited to with as part of its overall and larger case load. the United States since 1 January 2004. [275211] The figure does not include legal aid which may have been granted in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Mr. Hanson: In the given period, the Legal Services Commission advises that legal aid totalling £70,830.70 951W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 952W

Immigration Controls and helping every police force to ensure that all victims are seen by a specially trained officer within an hour of Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the reporting. Home Department what discussions he has had with UK Border Agency: Data Protection the United Nations on its new humanitarian centre at Calais; and if he will make a statement. [278548] Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Woolas: The Government maintain regular contact Home Department how many passports the UK with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees Border Agency has lost in each of the last five years. (UNHCR) in the area of immigration. [278348] UNHCR intends to deploy a staff member to the Mr. Woolas: Information relating to the number of Calais area to support local authorities and partners in passports that have been lost by the UK Border Agency the provision of accurate support and information for in each of the past five years is not centrally recorded migrants in the area. The Government are not aware of and therefore is not readily available. a new humanitarian centre being provided by the UNHCR, and would remain firmly opposed to any kind of permanent UK Border Agency: Liverpool accommodation centre that would attract illegal immigrants and the traffickers who prey on them. Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has for the relocation Immigration: Gurkhas of UK Border Agency offices to Liverpool; and if he will make a statement. [278996] Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many former soldiers of Mr. Woolas: There are no substantive plans at present Gurkha regiments are resident in the UK. [273853] to relocate departments or significant workstreams to Liverpool in a way that would substantially increase Mr. Woolas: Since the rules this Government introduced staff numbers at that location. in 2004 came into force, over 6,000 former Gurkhas and family members have been granted settlement in the UK Border Agency: Pay UK. It is not possible to disaggregate the number of Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Gurkhas who are legally resident here in other categories Home Department how much the UK Border Agency of the immigration rules from other Nepalese citizens and its predecessor bodies paid in staff bonuses over without the examination of individual records at (a) £10,000, (b) £50,000 and (c) £100,000 in 2008. disproportionate cost. [278707]

Sexual Offences: Coventry Mr. Woolas: For the financial year 2008-09:

Total employees Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps his Department UK Border Agency staff paid a 14 has taken to reduce the incidence of crimes related to bonus of over £10,000 sexual offences in Coventry in the last 12 months. UK Border Agency staff paid a 0 [276690] bonus of over £50,000 UK Border Agency staff paid a 0 Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government are committed bonus of over £100,000 to tackling sexual violence across the country. In 2007, it published a three year national Cross Government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse. Since the publication of the action plan, the Government have JUSTICE taken a number of measures including introducing specially Community Orders trained officers and specialist rape prosecutors; supporting police forces to develop rape action plans; and funding a pilot of a dedicated rape investigation team. In April Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2009, the Government announced a package of measures, (1) how many arrest warrants issued in respect of having worked closely with the Association of Chief breaches of the terms of community sentences are Police Officers (ACPO), to help ensure that victims of outstanding; and if he will make a statement; [278620] sexual violence receive a consistent, high quality service (2) how many warrants in respect of breach of in every force. These measures include a new Rape community orders have been outstanding for (a) less Performance Group, led by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate than 12 months, (b) between 12 months and two years, of Constabulary (HMIC) and the Crown Prosecution (c) between two and three years, (d) between three Service (CPS) to monitor police and CPS performance and four years, (e) between four and five years and (f) on rape and undertake continuous assessments of five years or more. [278663] performance; new National Policing Improvement Agency ‘best practice’ guidance for the police and Crown Mr. Straw: The Ministry of Justice does not hold Prosecution Service on investigating and prosecuting information centrally on the number of warrants in rape; an expert NPIA/ACPO/CPS support team to respect of breach of community orders that have been ensure consistent implementation of this new guidance; outstanding for the periods asked for. Data are available 953W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 954W on the number of warrants outstanding and the number Crimes of Violence: Reoffenders of arrest warrants that were issued as at 30 April 2009 for England and Wales. These are set out in the table. Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice These data come from an internal management system how many people convicted of serious violent offences that was developed and introduced in October 2005, and who served sentences of under two years duration which is subject to minimal levels of quality assurance re-offended in each year since 2000. [278883] and is based on the data currently available. Maria Eagle: The table shows the one year adult Community penalty breach warrants—as at 30 April 2009 reoffending rates for offenders in England and Wales England and Wales Number released from custody in the first quarter (1 January to 31 March) of the years 2000 to 2007, who served a Outstanding warrants for breaches 7,982 custodial sentence of less than two years for a serious of community orders violent offence. The table shows the proportion of offenders Number of arrest warrants issued 7,545 who committed at least one further offence and the frequency of offences per 100 offenders.

One year reoffending rates, offenders leaving custody, 2000-07 who served a custodial sentence of less than two years for a serious violent offence Number of offences per 100 Number of offenders Number of reoffenders Actual reoffending rate offenders

Q1 2000 346 107 30.9 100.6 Q1 2002 391 115 29.4 94.6 Q1 2003 343 93 27.1 98.5 Q1 2004 349 75 21.5 78.8 Q1 2005 307 70 22.8 66.8 Q1 2006 283 65 23.0 73.1 Q1 2007 241 63 26.1 72.6 Note: Data for 2001 are unavailable due to problems with archived data

Further information on the one year rates of reoffending line with the Serious Further Offence Probation Circular can be found in 22/2008 which took effect on 1 December 2008. OMCS http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ provide the offence breakdown by conviction rather reoffendingofadults.htm. than charge, where notified cases have proceeded to a Appendix G contains a list of serious violent offences. review. I will write to the hon. Member with an updated table, once OMCS are published, showing the number The figures for reoffences include offences of all of offenders who were charged with serious violent types. An offender whose original offence was serious offences for 2008-09. violence and who reoffended, may not have committed any more serious violent offences. Serious further offence breakdown of all cases notified to NOMS PPU between 1 April 2006 and 30 September 2008 While the small cohort size makes these measures England and Wales highly volatile, there has been a decline in both the notifications actual reoffending rate and the number of reoffences 1 April committed since 2000. 2008 to 30 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice September how many offenders were charged with each category Serious violent offence description 2006-07 2007-08 2008 of violent offence whilst under supervision by the Aggravated burglary (section 10 of —2675 Probation Service in each of the last five years. [278619] the Theft Act 1968) Aggravated theft 75 59 — Mr. Straw: The available information is shown in the Aggravated vehicle-taking involving —— 1 table. The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) an accident which caused the death holds statistical information on the number of offenders of any person (Section 12A of the charged with serious further violent offences while under Theft Act 1968) probation supervision. However, this does not include Arson (section 1 of the Criminal 90 93 42 all types of violent offence. Damage Act 1971) The table contains data on the number of offenders, Attempt to cause explosion, or —— 1 managed by the National Probation Service for England making or keeping explosive with intent to endanger life or property and Wales, who were charged with certain violent offences, (section 3 of the Explosive Substances where there was a requirement initially to notify NOMS, Act 1883) in line with Serious Further Offence Probation Circulars Attempt to commit murder or a 47 62 21 06/2006 and 41/2006. conspiracy to commit murder Data is only held for 2006-07 onwards. Data for Attempting to choke, suffocate or —1 — 2008-09 will be published in the annual Offender strangle in order to commit or assist Management Caseload Statistics (OMCS), which is in committing an indictable offence (section 21 of the Offences Against scheduled for publication on 31 July. This will also the Person Act 1861) include those offenders who were notified to NOMS, in 955W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 956W

Serious further offence breakdown of all cases notified to NOMS within 10 days of receipt of a supplier invoice since PPU between 1 April 2006 and 30 September 2008 November 2008. Performance since that date is sent out England and Wales in the table. notifications 1 April Percentage paid within 10 Number of invoices 2008 to day target paid within 10 days 30 September November 2008 64 63,307 Serious violent offence description 2006-07 2007-08 2008 December 2008 59 58,743 Burglary with intent to: (a) inflict —1117January 2009 55 57,679 grievous bodily harm on a person February 2009 67 67,693 or(b)dounlawfuldamagetoa March 2009 66 82,116 building or anything in it. (section 9 of the Theft Act 1968) April 2009 82 65,422 Carrying a firearm with criminal —2 1May 2009 92 61,462 intent (section 18 of the Firearms Act 1968) The Ministry of Justice is fully committed to achieving Causing or allowing the death of a —— —compliance with the Prime Minister’s target of paying child or vulnerable adult, also called suppliers within 10 days where possible, and is a signatory ‘familial homicide’ (Section 5 of the Domestic Violence, Crime and to the Prompt Payment Code. Victims Act 2004) The Ministry recognised that its performance against Causing death by careless driving 12 2the target needed to improve, and it implemented a when under influence of drink or prompt payment improvement programme to address drugs (section 3A of the Road Traffic Act 1988) the issue. The results for April and May indicate that Causing death by dangerous driving 14 8 6 this programme is beginning to have an effect. (section 1 of the Road Traffic Act 1988) Destroying or damaging property —1 — Legal Aid other than an offence of arson (section 1 (2) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971) Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice False imprisonment 56 60 35 how many solicitor’s firms in (a) England, (b) the Kidnapping 65 76 39 South West, (c) Devon and (d) East Devon provided Manslaughter 7 9 4 legal aid services in each of the last 10 years. [278410] Murder 129 107 64 Other explosives offences 2 — — Bridget Prentice: The information requested could be Other offences against the person 22 15 1 provided only at disproportionate cost. Other serious violent offence 92 65 5 However, figures for the numbers of solicitor offices Possession of firearm at time of —5 10 committing or being arrested for in England and Wales providing legal aid services in offence specified in Schedule 1 to each year since 2002-03 are available and are shown in that Act (section 17(2) of the Firearms the following table. Prior to the introduction of the civil Act 1968) unified contract in April 2007 and criminal unified Possession of firearm with intent —4 20contract in July 2008, legal aid providers delivering to endanger life (section 16 of the services in more than one office would hold separate Firearms Act 1968) contracts for each of those offices. In addition, where Robbery or assault with intent to 11118 rob (section 8 of the Theft Act 1968) providers have decided not to continue providing civil legal aid services, they may nevertheless still have an Use of firearm to resist arrest (section —— — 17(1) of the Firearms Act 1968) account or accounts with the Legal Services Commission Serious firearms offences (SFO) 55 96 — while they continue to deal with their remaining clients. Soliciting murder (section 4 of the —— 1Over the period there has been a downward trend in Offences against the Person Act 1861) the overall number of solicitor offices dealing with legal Wounding with intent to cause 454 567 352 aid. This is because there has been a continuing process grievous bodily harm (section 18 of of offices that do only small amounts of legal aid work the Offences against the Person Act 1861) leaving the market or merging with other offices, so that the work is done in larger volumes at fewer offices. In Total 1,110 1,280 715 addition, the Legal Services Commission has over time sought to terminate dormant accounts where no work Departmental Billing was being done.

Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Civil Crime how many and what proportion of invoices his 2002-03 5,372 2,967 Department and its agencies paid within 10 days of 2003-04 5,245 2,832 receipt in each of the last 12 months; and if he will 2004-05 5,099 2,695 [278819] make a statement. 2005-06 4,106 2,630 2006-07 3,708 2,534 Maria Eagle: The MOJ has only been collecting 2007-08 3,627 2,230 performance data for the proportion of invoices paid 957W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 958W

Legal Aid: South West to data on motorists and vehicles to any company which is in breach of the British Parking Association Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice code. [278811] for what reasons legal aid expenditure in the South West has decreased since 2004-05. [278346] Paul Clark: Private car-parking companies who request vehicle keeper data, via electronic means must be a Bridget Prentice: The decrease in expenditure in the member of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) South West is primarily due to reduced expenditure on Approved Operator Scheme (AOS). Ongoing membership criminal matters. requires compliance with BPA’s code of practice. The largest share of this was in the Crown court and A consultation exercise has recently concluded on here the reported decline is at least in part, only apparent. extending this requirement to also include private car This is because with the development of contracting for parking companies who request data via the paper very high cost cases, expenditure on these is assigned to based process. The responses are currently being analysed. the office from which the contract is managed, rather The effect of the proposed changes would be that all than the court in which the case is heard. Most high private car-parking companies will have to comply with cost cases heard in the Crown court in the South West the BPA’s code if they wish to obtain keeper information are not managed in that region. from Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. There has also been a decline in representation costs Driving: Licensing in the magistrates courts. This is due to the reintroduction of the means test for legal aid. Mr. Fallon: To ask the Minister of State, Department Probation for Transport for what reason holders of non-UK driving licences who have taken and failed a UK Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice driving test are permitted to drive in the UK on a how many offenders under Probation Service non-UK licence for up to 12 months following their supervision were categorised as Tier 4 in each of the arrival in the UK. [279049] last five financial years. [278618] Paul Clark: Holders of non-UK driving licences may Mr. Straw: The total number of offenders in England continue to drive in the UK for up to 12 months to and Wales who were categorised as Tier 4 as at 31 March build experience of traffic conditions and laws in Britain. in each of the last three years was as follows: Mr. Fallon: To ask the Minister of State, Department Number for Transport how many holders of non-UK driving licences have taken the UK driving test in each of the 2006 28,407 last 10 years; and how many have failed the test. 2007 37,555 [279050] 2008 40,117 Paul Clark: Provisional entitlement for the relevant Information on tier prior to 1 April 2005 was not category of vehicle is required before a UK driving test recorded. can be taken. Holders of non-UK licences must obtain These figures have been drawn from administrative a UK licence in order to obtain the necessary provisional IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, entitlement. are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. EU member state licence holders who hold a valid EU licence who wish to obtain further licence categories Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how may obtain a UK counterpart document, which gives many years experience a probation officer is required to the provisional entitlement that allows the holder to have before being assigned to a violent offender. take a test in that category. [278664] The Driving Standards Agency does not hold details Mr. Straw: All probation officers undergo a two year of previous licences held by driving test candidates. training course before qualifying which equips them to London Gateway Port deal with a wide range of offenders including those who commit violent offences. The local probation area holds responsibility for the allocation of a probation officer Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department or probation service officer to an individual offender. for Transport when he expects the London Gateway The most serious offenders should be allocated to the Port to commence operation. [279099] most experienced and competent probation officers available. Paul Clark: The construction and opening for operation of London Gateway port is a matter for the port developer.

TRANSPORT Motor Vehicles: Foreigners Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Databases Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport how many foreign-registered for Transport if he will require with immediate effect cars entered the UK in the last 12 months for which the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to deny access figures are available. [278361] 959W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 960W

Paul Clark: Information relating to the number of Speed Limits: Cameras foreign registered cars entering the UK is not recorded. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether his Department has Department for Transport what mechanism his made a recent assessment of the effect of the frequency Department uses to establish whether a foreign- of the re-siting of fixed speed cameras on road safety. registered car has been driven in the UK for a period of [278233] longer than six months. [278412] Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has not Paul Clark: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency assessed the effect of the frequency of the re-siting of (DVLA) records details of foreign registered vehicles as fixed speed cameras on road safety. Any decision to they are circulating in the UK from a range of sources. re-site a fixed speed camera is entirely a matter for These include its own automatic number plate recognition individual road safety partnerships and the practice is cameras, reports from members of the public, the police, not monitored by the Department. DFT circular 01/2007, local authorities and DVLA’s wheel-clamping contractor. “Use of Speed and Red-light Cameras for Traffic This information allows, on second and subsequent Enforcement: Guidance on Deployment, Visibility and sightings, the length of time a vehicle is likely to have Signing” encourages road safety partnerships to, at been circulating in the UK to be calculated, supporting least annually, review all their existing camera sites and wheel-clamping and impounding of non-compliant vehicles other collision hot spots. A copy of the guidance is in as appropriate. the Libraries of the House and is also available on the Department’s website. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many formerly foreign- registered cars were registered in the UK in each of the last three years. [278413] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Paul Clark: The following figures provide the number Fisheries: Manpower of vehicles previously registered abroad that have been registered in the UK in each of the last three financial Mr. Benyon: To ask the Secretary of State for years. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) full-time and (b) part-time British sea fishermen have Number been operating in UK waters in each year since 1997. [278886] 2008-09 75,101 2007-08 95,038 Huw Irranca-Davies: Latest published information 2006-07 93,233 from Table 2.6 of UK Sea Fisheries Statistics 2007 showing the number of fishermen operating on UK Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, registered vessels is shown in the following table. Department for Transport what estimate he has made Number of fishermen on UK register vessels of the number of foreign-registered cars using UK Regular Part-time Total roads which did not re-register within six months in the latest period for which information is available. [278414] 1997 14,832 3,772 18,604 1998 14,436 3,453 17,889 Paul Clark: The information requested is not held. 1999 13,864 3,032 16,896 2000 12,399 3,250 15,649 Road Traffic 2001 12,145 2,813 14,958 2002 11,442 2,763 14,205 Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, 2003 10,204 2,918 13,122 Department for Transport what methodology is used 2004 11,023 2,430 13,453 by his Department and its contractors to monitor levels 2005 10,492 2,339 12,831 of congestion on rural, urban and inter-urban roads. 2006 10,358 2,576 12,934 [278234] 2007 10,033 2,696 12,729

Mr. Khan: The methodologies for the Department’s We are not able to identify the number of fishermen inter-urban and urban congestion PSA indicators can operating in UK waters. be found on the DfT website at the following web Fisheries: Quotas addresses: Inter-urban Mr. Benyon: To ask the Secretary of State for www.dft.gov.uk/adobepdf/162469/221412/221546/226956/ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what share of coll_congestiononthestrategicroa/cs r07revisedbaseline.pdf the sea fishing quota for (a) plaice, (b) cod and (c) Urban halibut in the Irish Sea is held by fishermen using www.dft.gov.uk/about/howthedftworks/psa/spending vessels of under 10 metres. [278892] review2004psatargets2 While strategic A-roads in rural areas are included in Huw Irranca-Davies: In 2009, the 10 metre and under the inter-urban indicator, there is no separate indicator fleet received an initial quota share prior to adjustments for rural roads. of 4.6 per cent. (30.2 tonnes) for plaice and 1.6 per cent. 961W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 962W

(10.6 tonnes) for cod caught in the Irish sea. Irish sea WALES halibut is not subject to a quota. The Marine and Departmental Billing Fisheries Agency significantly increases the fishing opportunities of stocks such as Irish sea plaice which Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales are targeted by inshore fishermen. how many and what proportion of invoices his Department has paid within 10 days of receipt in each Fishing Vessels of the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [278832] Mr. Benyon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Mr. Hain: The percentage of invoices paid by my fishing vessels of (a) 10 metres and under and (b) over Department within 10 days, for the last 12 months is: 10 metres are licensed in the UK. [278884] Percentage

Huw Irranca-Davies: Latest published information 2008 from Table 2.2 of UK Sea Fisheries Statistics 2007 shows that at 31 December 2007 there were 6,670 licensed June 72 UK registered fishing vessels. Of these, 1,515 were over July 89 10 metres in length and 5,155 were 10 metres or under August 94 in length. September 92 October 85 Rats November 90 December 98 Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research his Department 2009 has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on rat prevalence January 91 and the frequency of refuse collection from multiple February 98 occupation properties in the last three years. [278763] March 99 April 100 Huw Irranca-Davies: My Department has not commissioned nor evaluated any research on rat prevalence May 97 and the frequency of refuse collection from multiple Changes to payment of invoices were announced by occupation properties in the last three years. However, the Prime Minister on 8 October 2008; invoices paid the latest report on rodent presence in domestic properties prior to this date had a 30-day payment target for which as revealed by the English House Condition Survey my Department achieved a 99 per cent. payment score. data for 2002-03 and 2003-04 is available on DEFRA’s website. Key findings are that the occurrences of rats inside and outside properties in these years are not HEALTH significantly different from those observed in 2001. The Children in Care: Kent next report covering the period up to 2006 should be available this year, although at present there is no set Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for date for publication. There is no breakdown in the Health what information his Department holds on the English House Condition Survey to identify rat populations former children’s home Kendall House. [278970] in multiple occupation properties. Phil Hope: The Department no longer holds any Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, information on Kendall House. Files including those Food and Rural Affairs what information his Department relating to the social services inspectorates’ inspections holds on trends in resistance to poisons in the rat of Kendall house were transferred to the then Department population. [278765] for Education and Skills, (now the Department for Children Schools and Families) when responsibility for Huw Irranca-Davies: I am not aware that DEFRA children’s social services was transferred to that Department holds any information on trends in resistance to poisons in 2003. in the rat population that is not in the public domain. Drugs The former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food funded an assessment of resistance to rodenticides Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in 1998. This was published in: “Kerins, G.M.; Dennis, what requirements there are upon pharmaceutical N.; Atterby, H.; Gill, J.E. and MacNicoll A.D. (2001) companies to report information on medicines for Distribution of resistance to anti-coagulant rodenticides human use to his Department. [278061] in the Norway rat (Rattus norvegicus Berk) in England Gillian Merron: All marketing authorisation holders 1995-98”. In: “Advances in Vertebrate Pest Management of medicines for human use in the European Union are Volume II (Eds. H-J Pelz, D.P. Cowan and C.J. Feare) obliged by law to provide information on the safety of pages 149-159, Filander Verlag, Furth”. their products under Regulation 726/2004 and Directive The Health and Safety Executive is aware from literature 2001/83/EC (as amended). Detailed guidance is provided that rats may be becoming increasingly resistant to in Volume 9A of the Rules Governing Medicinal Products anti-coagulant rodenticides. Although it is aware of the in the European Union and is available at the following research mentioned above, it is not aware of any new link: studies and has not itself commissioned any recent http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/pharmaceuticals/eudralex/ work of this nature. vol9_en.htm 963W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 964W

Obligations relating to reporting in clinical trials are Mr. Mike O’Brien: The phrase ‘hospital services given in Clinical Trials Directive 2001/20/EC, Articles delivering 24 hours, immediate patient care’ was used in 16 and 17. Some obligations are associated with specific the United Kingdom governments’ notification to the deadlines for provision of information to competent European Commission of the intention to take up the authorities. Those related to safety of medicines include option of a derogation under Article 17(5) of the European the submission of serious, suspected adverse drug reactions; Working Time Directive (EWTD). The phrase was the submission of Periodic Safety Update reports; and recommended by the national EWTD Reference Group with respect to clinical trials, the reporting of suspected as the most appropriate descriptor to identify those unexpected serious adverse reactions. services most likely to be challenged in implementing rotas for a 48 hour week for doctors in training from 1 Health Services: Coventry August. There is no central collection of data, nor central definition of immediate care beds. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Intensive Care for Health what recent steps he has taken to improve services for (a) cancer, (b) accident and emergency, Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (c) paediatric and (d) geriatric patients in Coventry. what mechanisms are used to allocate funding for [278802] intensive care beds. [278491]

Ann Keen: This information is not held centrally. It is Mr. Mike O’Brien: It is for local healthcare providers, for primary care trusts to commission services in line working with healthcare commissioners to determine with local needs and the priorities set out in “The the allocation of funding for intensive care in accordance Operating Framework for the NHS in England 2009-10”. with their local population characteristics, anticipated A copy of this document is already available in the case mix and level of elective and emergency activity. Library. The target that no patient would spend more than Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health four hours in accident and emergency (A&E) departments what guidance his Department has issued to hospitals from arrival to admission, transfer or discharge was set to assist them in determining the optimum number of in the NHS Plan in 2000. The target became an operational intensive care beds. [278492] standard in 2005. In 2003, a 98 per cent. minimum operating figure was Mr. Mike O’Brien: Local healthcare providers, working set for delivery of the access standard to allow for the with their commissioners and supported by critical care minority of patients who clinically need more than four networks determine the optimum number of critical hours in A&E. care beds required to meet the needs of their local populations taking account of anticipated case mix and Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State level of activity. They are supported in this by the for Health what recent steps he has taken to improve long-term strategy document published in May 2000 health services for victims of sexual crimes in Coventry. “Comprehensive Critical Care.” A copy has been placed [278803] in the Library.

Ann Keen: The Department is working with the Home NHS: Public Consultation Office to deliver the Response to Sexual Violence Programme. The aim is to set up more sexual assault Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for referral centres (SARCs) in line with the Home Secretary’s Health what his latest assessment is of the effectiveness commitment to increasing provision to one per police of local involvement networks; and if he will make a force area. SARCs are intended to provide a holistic statement. [278997] service for the victims of sexual assaults, including meeting the victim’s clinical needs as well as a forensic Ann Keen: The legal duty to ensure local involvement examination, counselling and the opportunity to give network (LINk) activities are carried on rests with local evidence anonymously. authorities. It is their responsibility to make sure that The Department has also announced £1.4 million for the contract with the host organisation provides that the National Support Team on Response to Sexual the support given to the LINk ensures the LINk is as Violence, which will work in local areas to bring together effective as possible. experts from the health service, forensics services, the Each year LINks must produce an annual report Crown Prosecution Service and the police to advise on setting out what they have achieved, the activities they meeting local needs. have undertaken, the money they have spent on their Within the West Midlands area the police and local activities and the impact they have had. Reports have to partners are working together to agree a strategic approach be completed by 30 June and must be made publicly for providing sexual violence services. available. Copies have to be sent to the Department and these will be analysed to see what, if any, additional national support would be appropriate. Immediate Care Patients: Death Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many immediate care beds there are in Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State England; and in which units such beds are located. for Health how many patients representing what [277039] proportion of admissions died in (a) intensive care 965W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 966W units, (b) theatre and (c) other wards in each NHS Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friends the Foreign hospital in each of the last 10 years; and how many and Secretary and the Minister for Europe have regular what proportion of people attending accident and contact with their EU counterparts in other member emergency departments died while in the department in states. These discussions include a wide range of bilateral, each accident and emergency department in each such European and international issues. year. [277196]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not Departmental Finance collected centrally. Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to page 14 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE of the National Audit Office’s report on the financial Afghanistan management of his Department, HC 289, what arrangements his Department has made with HM Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Treasury to carry forward unspent funds into future and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has years through the system of end year flexibility; and made of the effectiveness of the operations of provincial whether there have been any changes to these reconstruction teams in Afghanistan which are beyond arrangements in the last two financial years. [278646] their military remit; and if he will make a statement. [278642] David Miliband: The take-up of end year flexibility (EYF) carry over of unspent funds into future years is Mr. Ivan Lewis: The mission of Provincial Reconstruction subject to normal Treasury scrutiny on the basis of Teams (PRTs) is to extend the ability of the government need, and in the light of the wider fiscal position. In of Afghanistan to deliver its services and this is conducted 2008-09 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office took in a comprehensive manner by military and civilian up £17.3 million EYF. There have been no formal personnel. The remit of a PRT is not military in nature, changes to the EYF arrangements in the last two financial but rather uses military resources to facilitate its activities. years. For example, the UK’s PRT spent around £60 million in Helmand in 2008 on stabilisation and development and now has over 80 civilian staff in the province. This European Union: Civil Servants assistance has built nearly 2,000 wells benefiting over 400,000 people, contributed to 160 district infrastructure Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign projects reaching over 300,000 families and provided and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff there were paid work for nearly 19,000 people. The PRT has also at each grade at the UK Permanent Representation to supported projects on dispute resolution, which saw the EU in each year since 1997. [277096] considerable progress in 2008: the Helmand Provincial Court is operating more effectively; convictions have Chris Bryant: At present staff at each grade at the risen 400 per cent. since June; and legal representation, UK Permanent Representation to the EU are: including a legal aid office, has been introduced. China: Censorship Number In the senior management Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he SMS4 1 has received on steps taken by the Chinese government SMS3 1 to close access to websites commenting on the 20th SMS2 1 anniversary of the events in Tiananmen Square; and if SMS1 12 he will make a statement. [279104] In the delegated grades Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are aware that access to a large D7 4 number of foreign and domestic websites in China was D6 37 blocked in the run up to the 4 June anniversary.Encouraging C5 2 greater freedom of expression in China, including for domestic and foreign media, remains a priority for us. C4 26 We urge the Chinese Government to lift restrictions B3 6 which undermine the fundamental principles of A2 5 international human rights standards on freedom of expression. We raised the subject of internet access at Staff employed locally the last UK-China Human Rights Dialogue in January LEI 6 2009. LEII 5 Czech Republic: Treaty of Lisbon LEIII 29 LEIV 5 Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his To collate a year-by-year breakdown would incur Department has had with the Czech government on disproportionate cost. The general staffing levels at the Czech ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon; and if he UK Permanent Representation have remained reasonably will make a statement. [276971] consistent in recent years. 967W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 968W

Iraq: Iran Department has had with the Polish government on Poland’s ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon; and if he Mr. David Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [276972] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations he has made to Iraqi authorities on the Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friends the Foreign security of the residents of Ashraf City. [278967] Secretary and the Minister for Europe have regular contact with their EU counterparts in other member Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our ambassador in Baghdad called states. These discussions include a wide range of bilateral, on the Iraqi Human Rights Minister, Wijdan Salim, on European and international issues. 13 April 2009 this year to raise the issue of Camp Ashraf and make her aware of the level of interest in Republic of Ireland: Treaty of Lisbon this issue in the UK. We took the opportunity to remind her of the Government of Iraq’s earlier assurances Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign towards the proper treatment of the residents of Ashraf. and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his In addition, officials at our embassy in Baghdad have Department has had with the Irish Government on undertaken consular visits to Camp Ashraf to clarify Ireland’s ratification of the treaty of Lisbon; and if he whether any residents qualified for UK consular assistance. will make a statement. [276973] The Iraqi Government have made assurances that no Ashraf residents will be forcibly transferred to a country Chris Bryant: The Irish Government updated partners where they have reason to fear persecution, or where in Brussels on their views on preparing the June European substantial grounds exist to believe they would be tortured. Council discussion during the course of the week beginning 25 May 2009. My right hon. Friend, the then Minister Middle East for Europe, Caroline Flint, wrote on 5 June 2009 to the chairs of European Scrutiny Committee and the Lords Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for EU Select Committee updating them on these discussions. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Copies of this letter will be placed in the Library of the he has had with his (a) Israeli, (b) Egyptian and (c) House. Palestinian counterparts on the commitment of the Government together with the US, Norway, Germany, Tibet France, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands and Denmark to implement measures to prevent arms smuggling Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for from Iran into the Gaza Strip. [278470] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Answer of 3 June 2009, Official Report, column 522W, Mr. Ivan Lewis: The matter of counter weapons- on Tibet, what report was made to him by those smuggling to armed groups in Gaza is part of our officials who visited the Tibet Autonomous Region in regular discourse on Middle East Peace Process issues May 2009. [278980] with the EU, US and regional partners, including Israel, Egypt and the Palestinian Authority. Stopping the flow Mr. Ivan Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to the of weapons along with ensuring humanitarian and answer given by my hon. Friend, the then Minister of reconstruction access to Gaza are vital elements to State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Bill Rammell, securing a lasting ceasefire. on 8 June 2009, Official Report, column 694W.

Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made on his undertaking together with Italy, Germany CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT and France, to provide naval resources to stop the flow of weapons from Iran into the Gaza Strip. [278471] Digital Broadcasting: Radio Mr. Ivan Lewis: Taking action to prevent the smuggling Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, of arms into Gaza plays a key role in consolidating the Media and Sport what progress has been made towards ceasefire. creating a plan for the digital migration of radio. We will continue to work closely with the EU, US and [279096] regional partners to establish how best our expertise, including naval resources, can be used. Officials are Mr. Bradshaw: We have worked closely with a wide attending a meeting on prevention of arms smuggling range of industry stakeholders since the publication of to Gaza in Ottawa on 10-11 June 2009. This is a follow the Interim Digital Britain Report. We will set out the up meeting to the ones held in Copenhagen and London findings, alongside our proposals for the future of radio, where a programme of action was agreed by the nine in the Digital Britain Final Report, which will be published participating countries (Canada, Denmark, France, shortly. Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, the UK, and the US). Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on how many occasions the Digital Poland: Treaty of Lisbon Radio Delivery Group has met. [279097]

Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Bradshaw: The Digital Radio Delivery Group and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his has met four times. 969W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 970W

Football Foundation: Finance SCOTLAND

Departmental Data Protection Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Football Association and (b) the James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Premier League on the funding of the Football Scotland how many notifications his Department made Foundation; and what financial commitments to the to the Information Commissioner in the year ended 30 Foundation have been agreed for each year to 2012. April 2009 in respect of the loss or mishandling of personal information or data; what was notified in each [278552] such case; and how many individuals were the subjects of personal information or data in respect of which Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Ihave such notifications were made. [278755] regular discussions with the Football Association and the Premier League about football matters, including Ann McKechin: Under the mandatory requirements issues relating to the Football Foundation. of the Data Handling Report published on 25 June 2008, the Scotland Office is required to give a summary The current agreed annual financial commitment to report on data breaches reported to the Information the Football Foundation by each of the three funding Commissioner in our annual resource accounts. partners is currently £15 million and runs to the end of the financial year 2009-10. The Scotland Office has made no such notifications.

Heroes Return 2 Scheme ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE

David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government: Reorganisation Culture, Media and Sport how many veterans have received funding under the Heroes Return 2 scheme. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the hon. Member for South [278307] West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission what financial consultants Barbara Follett [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Through were used by the Boundary Committee to model the the Big Lottery Fund’s Heroes Return 2 programme possible costs of unitary local government in (a) 1,184 veterans have received funding. This funding has Devon, (b) Norfolk and (c) Suffolk; and at what cost. offered WW2 veterans from the UK, Channel Islands [279559] and Republic of Ireland the opportunity to visit the places where they saw active service or to take part in an Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me official commemoration in the UK. that the Boundary Committee engaged three independent financial consultants to consider the affordability of its draft proposals for Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk. They UK Film Council: Pay are Chris Wheeler CPFA, Tony Hall CPFA and Ken Bell CPFA. The committee also engaged Dr. Eric Fisher CPFA to undertake a peer review of their affordability Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for assessments. All were contracted through CIPFA Culture, Media and Sport which (a) employees and Placements. (b) board members of the UK Film Council receive a The cost to date is £279,949. This figure accounts for salary higher than the Ministerial salary of a Secretary work undertaken in relation to Devon, Norfolk and of State; and what the salary is in each case. [278078] Suffolk from March 2008 to 10 June 2009.

Barbara Follett: The information is as follows: (a) Four UK Film Council employees receive a salary higher OLYMPICS than a Secretary of State. In accordance with the UK Film Council’s annual report and accounts disclosure of senior staff salaries, not including the chief executive officer, is given in salary Olympic Games 2012 ranges. Pete Wishart: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Employee Position Salary how much has been raised from all dedicated London 2012 Olympic Lottery games (a) in total and (b) in John Woodward Chief Executive £170,171 Officer each quarter of 2008-09. [278093] Sally Caplan Head of Premiere £165,000-£170,000 Fund Barbara Follett: I have been asked to reply. Tanya Seghatchian Head of £165,000-£170,000 As at 31 March 2009, the total contributed to the Development Fund Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund (OLDF) from Will Evans Head of Business £155,000-£160,000 designated Olympic Lottery games is £390.4 million. Affairs The amount contributed to the OLDF from designated (b) Board Members of the UK Film Council do not receive Olympic Lottery Games in each quarter of financial remuneration. year 2008-09 is: 971W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 972W

notified in each such case; and how many individuals £ million were the subjects of personal information or data in Quarter 1 31.2 respect of which such notifications were made. [278721] Quarter 2 43.6 Quarter 3 27.3 Paul Goggins: Under the mandatory requirements of Quarter 4 24 the Data Handling Report published on 25 June 2008, the Northern Ireland Office is required to give a summary The National Lottery Commission publishes quarterly report on data breaches reported to the Information reports detailing the level of funds that have been Commissioner in our annual resource accounts. transferred to the OLDF. These are available on its The Northern Ireland Office has reported on personal website: data breaches in the 2007-08 annual resource account www.natlotcomm.gov.uk/client/content.ASP?ContentId=234 and this can be found at: Olympic Games 2012: Finance http://www.nio.gov.uk We will be publishing information on personal data Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics security breaches reported to the Information Commissioner what her most recent estimate is of the cost of hosting for the 2008-09 reporting year before Parliament rises in London 2012 Olympics events at the ExCel centre in July. The information is currently being compiled and is London. [278319] to be audited and verified before it is laid before Parliament.

Tessa Jowell: The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) WORK AND PENSIONS has responsibility for staging the Olympic and Paralympic Games at existing venues. The direct costs associated Bus Services: Greater Manchester with staging the events at existing venues come from LOCOG’s revenues which are primarily derived from Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for commercial sponsorship, broadcast rights, ticket sales Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the and merchandising/licensing—not from the public purse. number of pensioners resident in Denton and Reddish There will be attributable costs to the public purse, constituency who have received a free bus pass and free for example in respect of the security and transport eye test. [277713] functions associated with the venue. However these costs have not yet been identified separately for individual Angela Eagle: As part of the implementation of the venues, but they will form part of the overall security new England-wide concession, which guarantees older and transport budgets. and eligible disabled people free off peak travel on local buses anywhere in England, all concessionary passes Olympics Games 2012: Safety are now issued as smartcards to a new standard design. Local authorities are responsible for issuing passes, and Justine Greening: To ask the Minister for the Olympics so central Government does not maintain records of what progress has been made by the Government Office how many individual authorities have issued, though for London in its corporate plan aim to develop and we do know that around eight million passes have now implement resilience plans to ensure the safety of the been issued in total across England. London 2012 Olympics. [278689] The last information held by the Department for Transport was that as of 31 March 2009, Greater Mr. Hanson: I have been asked to reply. Manchester Passenger Transport Executive, which As part of the wider Home Office led 2012 Olympics administers the concession for residents of Denton and safety and security programme, the Government Office Reddish, had issued around 460,000 of the new smartcard for London is currently assessing where further work concessionary passes. This includes applications from may be required to ensure that we have the necessary disabled people as well as those aged 60 and over. capabilities (i.e. plans, staff, facilities etc.) in London to The Department of Health has been unable to provide respond to Olympic specific resilience risks to the safety the number of NHS-funded sight tests for those aged 60 and security of the Games. Once this analysis is complete, and over in the Denton and Reddish constituency. the Government Office for London will take forward a Information is provided by Primary Care Trust (PCT) programme of work to build any new capabilities that and by Strategic Health Authority (SHA) but is not are required, or enhance existing capabilities, to ensure available by parliamentary constituency. that relevant risks are effectively managed. The number of NHS sight tests for those aged over 60, in 2007-08 is available in Table B3 of Annex C of the General Ophthalmic Services: Activity Statistics for NORTHERN IRELAND England and Wales: Year Ending 31 March 2008 report. This report, published on 20 November 2008, has already Departmental Data Protection been placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS Information Centre website at: James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/gosactivitv0708p2 Northern Ireland how many notifications his From 1 April 1999, eligibility for an NHS sight test Department made to the Information Commissioner in was extended to everyone aged 60 or over. Patients may the year ended 30 April 2009 in respect of the loss or qualify for an NHS sight test on more than one criterion. mishandling of personal information or data; what was However, they would only be recorded against one 973W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 974W criterion on the form. Patients are more likely to be Job vacancies notified to Jobcentre Plus can be accessed online, recorded according to their clinical need rather than through digital television and through Jobpoint Kiosks located in their age. For example, a patient aged over 60 with all of our local Jobcentres. We are now starting to replace and glaucoma is likely to be recorded in the glaucoma upgrade that network of Jobpoints. We are also exploring making some online services accessible by mobile telephone which, like category only. The count by eligibility is therefore digital television, are more extensively owned and used by our approximate. Patients may also have had more than one customers than home computers. sight test in the specified time period. Customers can already access information which enables them 2007-08 is the latest full year for which information is to answer some basic enquiries about their benefit entitlement available. Information for 2008-09 is expected to be through the online Benefit Adviser service on Directgov. Later published by the NHS Information Centre in August this year customers will be able to make their claim for benefit 2009. online and that service will be extended in 2010 to enable customers to track progress of their claim and notify changes of circumstances Cold Weather Payments: Scotland through a secure personal account. We are also planning to make these services available to intermediaries and welfare rights Mr. Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work organisations such as Citizens Advice Bureaux so that customers can access them there or be helped by those organisations to use and Pensions how many people received the extra cold them. weather payment of £60 awarded for the winter of It is equally important that we provide help for those customers 2008-09 in (a) Scotland, (b) Glasgow and (c) who need to become confident about using digital services. Through Glasgow South West constituency. [270800] the work-focused interviews carried out by our Personal Advisers, we identify people who could benefit from that help and refer or Angela Eagle: The £60 payment was a Christmas signpost them to a wide range of information technology training bonus. More than 15 million customers have been paid offered through DWP’s Employment Programmes, Learndirect this additional Christmas bonus following the Chancellor’s or UK Online centres. pre-Budget announcement on 24 November 2008. I also recognise the importance of ensuring that our services Information about the number of Christmas bonus are accessible to disabled people or people with other barriers to recipients in specific areas is not available, because the using digital technology. Our online services are compliant with data are not collected in a form which would allow us to the Government’s Web Accessibility Standards, compatible with the main assistive software packages including JAWS, Dragon, identify the geographical location of customers. Supernova and Zoomtext. All our services are also accessible by For the available estimates on the number of eligible telephone or through our local Jobcentres for those people who pensioners in each parliamentary constituency, I refer need it or who find it difficult to access online services. Later this the hon. member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member year, we will be able to offer a new “Text Box” service which will for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) on improve the service we provide to speech and hearing impaired 23 February 2009, Official Report, columns 99-100W. people over the telephone. For cold weather payments, the information requested I recognise that improving digital inclusion is essential to ensuring that all our customers can benefit from the improvements is not available. Estimates of the number of people who in service that digital technologies can provide to help them move received a cold weather payment during the winter of off welfare and into work. 2008-09 are not available geographically other than by weather station area. Some weather stations cover areas Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries which straddle the border between Scotland and England. Jobcentre Plus: Digital Technology Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent discussions she has Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Work had with representatives of motor industry employees and Pensions what steps her Department is taking to on private pensions for (a) retiring and (b) retired ensure that the principles of digital inclusion are motor industry employees. [278019] applied to Jobcentre Plus. [268967] Angela Eagle: Ministers and officials have had discussions Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 20 April 2009]: The with representatives of motor industry workers and administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the others about the level of Pension Protection Fund acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I compensation payable to individuals who started to have asked the acting chief executive to provide the draw pensions from their pension scheme before they hon. Member with the information requested. reached the scheme’s normal pension age. Letter from Mel Groves: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Pension Credit asking what steps his Department is taking to ensure that the principles of digital inclusion are applied to Jobcentre Plus. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. and Pensions what recent steps her Department has Jobcentre Plus supports the principles set out in the Government’s taken to reduce the number of pensioners not claiming Digital Inclusion Action Plan and the work of the Cabinet pension credit for which they are eligible. [275443] Committee set up last year to ensure that everyone, especially disadvantaged people, benefits from the use of digital technologies Angela Eagle: Maximising the take-up of benefits is in delivering public services. crucial to tacking pensioner poverty. Since its introduction I recognise how important this is for Jobcentre Plus and for our in October 2003 the number of pensioners in relative customers. Many of the people we help are disadvantaged and low income has reduced by around 500,000. some are amongst the most vulnerable members of society. We are tackling that challenge by extending access to our online We want to increase take-up of pension credit and services and by helping people to acquire the confidence and council tax benefit and are working hard to encourage ability to use those online services. those entitled but not yet claiming to do so. 975W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 976W

In order to increase take-up of pension credit and according to the records of the Department for Work council tax benefit we introduced further simplifications and Pensions the number of households with at least to the claims process so that pensioners can now claim one person aged 75 or over claiming the winter fuel state pension, pension credit, housing benefit and council payment in the Plymouth Devonport and Plymouth tax benefit in one easy free phone call, without the need Sutton constituencies in 2007-08 was 13,950. Figures to sign and return any claim forms. for 2008-09 are still being compiled. The Pension, Disability and Carers Service will continue (c) The number of NHS-funded sight tests for those to promote take-up of benefits by those entitled. It will aged 60 and over in the Plymouth area during 2007-08 continue to press forward with data matching to identify was 29,696. eligible non-recipients, home visits for vulnerable customers 2007-08 is the latest full year for which information is and ever closer working with partner organisations. We available. Information for 2008-09 is expected to be are rolling out a targeted take-up campaign across 20 published by the NHS Information Centre in August regions where our insight suggests there are a high 2009. number of eligible non-recipients of pension credit. The approach involves local service teams working closely Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for with national and local partners, both in planning and Work and Pensions how many UK pensioners formerly delivering the campaign to ensure we are using all resident overseas have returned to live in the UK in available knowledge to deliver a highly effective take-up each of the last five years. [277744] campaign. The new campaign, launched in Sheffield and North Angela Eagle: The following table shows the numbers Kent in January 2009, is designed to engage with the of pensioners now living in Great Britain receiving the local pensioner population, using channels of UK state pension who were previously in receipt of communication and organisations that are likely to be their pension overseas: familiar, for example WRVS, Mecca bingo, voluntary organisations. In some areas, for example the North Number East, the campaign will be extended to the wider region. In addition, we are taking powers in the Welfare 2004 7,920 Reform Bill to allow us to pilot new approaches that 2005 8,960 make better use of the information Government already 2006 8,820 have available to it for this purpose. 2007 8,390 2008 9,270 Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Notes: Pensions how many pensioners in each local authority 1. Great Britain is defined via the country code recorded on the Pension Service Computer System. Excludes claimants returning area are in receipt of pension credit; and what the from Northern Ireland. average payment in each such area was in 2008. [276266] 2. British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies are classified as overseas in this analysis. Angela Eagle: The information requested will be placed 3. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. in the Library. Source: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study, November 2003-November Pensioners 2008 Remploy Linda Gilroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many pensioners in Plymouth are estimated to have received a (a) free bus pass, (b) free Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work television licence and (c) free eye test. [276358] and Pensions how many and what proportion of those formerly employed in Remploy factories which have Angela Eagle: The information is as follows: been closed in the last three years have subsequently (a) As part of the implementation of the new England-wide found alternative employment with Government concession, which guarantees older and eligible disabled assistance. [278035] people free off peak travel on local buses anywhere in England, all concessionary passes are now issued as Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 4 June 2009): Because smartcards to a new standard design. Local authorities of data protection regulations, Remploy are not able to are responsible for issuing passes, and so central share personal details of those employees leaving the Government does not maintain records of how many factories with the Department for Work and Pensions. individual authorities have issued, though we do know The Department for Work and Pensions does not that around 8 million passes have now been issued in keep records on Remploy ex-employees separately. It is total across England. therefore not possible to provide information about the The latest information held by the Department for proportion of people formerly employed at Remploy Transport was that, as of 7 April 2008, Plymouth city factories who have found work with Government assistance. council had submitted approximately 36,419 applications Remploy has provided the information as follows on for the new smartcard concessionary passes to their the 1,637 people who left the factories under the pass supplier. This includes applications from disabled modernisation of the company: people as well as those aged 60 and over. Remploy last contacted these former employees in March (b) TV Licensing, which administers free television 2009, but only received responses from 635 (38 per cent.). licences for people aged 75 or over as agents for the Of the 635 replies, 178 people (28 per cent.) have confirmed BBC, can provide breakdown only by postcode. However, they are in work. 977W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 978W

232 former factory employees remain employed by Remploy. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right Of these, 108 are working at a host company on a permanent hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2009, Official contract, 80 are on a job placement and 44 are still looking for Report, column 487W. work. Departmental Carbon Emissions State Retirement Pensions Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work International Development for how long his and Pensions if she will estimate the basic state pension Department has followed the Carbon Trust’s Energy payable to eligible (a) men and (b) women in (i) 2010, Efficiency programme. [269283] (ii) 2015, (iii) 2020, (iv) 2025 and (v) 2030; and if she will make a statement. [272661] Mr. Michael Foster: DFID has been working closely with the Carbon Trust on our energy efficiency programme Angela Eagle: The information is in the following since 2006, when they carried out energy assessment table. reports on our UK buildings. Basic state pension expenditure, Great Britain 2010-11 2015-16 2020-21 2025-26 2030-31 Developing Countries: Trade

£ billion, cash Mr. Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Men 2434476387International Development what estimate he has made Women3239506999of the likely effect on levels of employment in each country in (a) Africa, (b) Latin America and (c) Asia £ billion, 2008-09 of the completion of the World Trade Organisation prices Doha Round. [279136] Men 2328344047 Women3032364354Mr. Thomas: The Department for International Notes: Development (DFID) has not calculated the impact of 1. Figures have been rounded to the nearest £ billion. the completed Doha Development Agenda (DDA) on 2. Forecasts of basic state pension expenditure in 2010-11 are based employment levels. However, one of the most significant on the Budget 2009 forecasts. Basic state pension expenditure forecasts impacts of a Doha deal for these continents will be the from 2015-16 onwards are based on the latest published long-term projections which were published Budget 2008. expected increase in income. A World Bank study gives 3. The real terms figures are calculated from the Budget 2008 GDP estimates of annual increases in income as a result of a deflator. Doha deal as follows: Source: $400 million for Sub-Saharan Africa; Budget 2009 forecasts and Budget 2008 long-term projections. $7.9 billion for Latin America and the Caribbean; $8.1 billion for East and South Asia. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT DFID is working to ensure that a final DDA deal delivers on its development mandate. Cabinet: Glasgow

Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) how much expenditure TREASURY was incurred by his Department in respect of the Banks: Regulation Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273911] (2) what car journeys he undertook in attending the Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273910] Exchequer (1) what reports he has received from the (3) how many (a) special advisers and (b) officials Financial Services Authority on the results of its stress of his Department accompanied him to Glasgow for testing of British banks; and if he will make a the Cabinet meeting on 16 April 2009; [273909] statement; [278297] (4) what expenditure on (a) travel, (b) (2) if he will direct the Financial Services Authority accommodation and (c) food (i) he and (ii) officials in to publish the results of its stress testing of UK banks; his Department incurred in connection with the and if he will make a statement. [278569] Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273912] Ian Pearson: The FSA made a statement on stress Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Secretary of State for tests on 28 May 2009. This statement is available online International Development was not accompanied by at: officials to the Cabinet meeting on 16 April. He was http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/ joined at the venue by his two special advisers who were 2009/068.shtml visiting the Department’s joint headquarters in Glasgow on departmental business on the day in question. The Departmental Drinking Water Department for International Development (DFID) incurred a total expenditure of £543.65 relating to the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the Cabinet Office meeting, which was solely for travel. Two Exchequer (1) how much his Department has spent on car journeys were undertaken. bottled water in each of the last two years; [278146] For further information in relation to the Cabinet (2) how much his Department has spent on water and public engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April coolers in each of the last two years. [278147] 979W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 980W

Kitty Ussher: Since June 2008, meetings at the Treasury’s Private Finance Initiative: Waste Disposal 1 Horse Guards Road building have been supplied with in-house bottled filtered water, rather than bottled water Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the sourced from outside suppliers. It is not possible to Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the separately identify costs of bottled water prior to June Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural 2008 as this forms part of the cost of meeting refreshments Affairs on the effects on contracts for waste disposal that includes teas and coffees, bottled water and biscuits. services of Government policy on the private finance Water coolers were used in the Treasury’s Norwich initiative. [279310] building at a cost of £2,250 in 2007-08. The cost for 2008-09 forms part of the Treasury’s resource account Kitty Ussher: Treasury Ministers have discussions which is due for publication in the summer following with a variety of individuals and organisations in the audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The use public and private sectors as part of the process of of water coolers at the Norwich office is being discontinued policy development and delivery. As with previous following their replacement with plumbed in machines. Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to Departmental Flags provide details of all such discussions. Government policy, as announced on 3 March, is to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the ensure vital infrastructure projects proceed as planned, Exchequer on how many days in the last year (a) the supporting jobs and the economy and preparing for Union Flag and (b) no flag has been raised above his future recovery. This includes PFI waste projects. Department’s main building. [278121] Revenue and Customs: Closures Kitty Ussher: The Union Flag flies permanently above 1 Horse Guards Road. Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Insurance: Motor Vehicles pursuant to the answer of 18 May 2009, Official Report, column 1183W, on HM Revenue and Customs: Mrs. Riordan: To ask the Chancellor of the closures, in which constituency each property planned Exchequer what assessment he has made of the merits to be vacated in 2009-10 is located. [277265] of regulating the practice of pressing for early settlement in the motor insurance industry. [279005] Mr. Timms: The following table lists those offices Ian Pearson: The matter raised in this question is the where HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) plans to responsibility of the Financial Services Authority, whose withdraw back office operations in 2009-10 as part of day-to-day operations are independent from Government HMRC’s regional review programme, the constituency control and influence. The FSA will respond to the hon. in which each office is located and whether or not it Member directly. provides inquiry centre services. Where an office housing an inquiry centre closes, the inquiry centre services will Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander: Isle of Man be retained at or near the current location so face to face services to HMRC’s customers will not be affected. Mr. Todd: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what requests for assistance he has received from the Inquiry Isle of Man Government relating to compensation of Town Building centre Constituency account holders with Kaupthing, Singer and Andover London Street Yes North West Friedlander (Isle of Man). [278764] Hampshire Ashton- Oakglade House Yes Ashton-under- Ian Pearson: Treasury Ministers and officials have under-Lyne Lyne meetings and discussions with a wide variety of Belfast Olivetree House No Belfast West organisations in the public and private sectors as part of Brierley Hill Capstan House No Dudley South the process of policy development and delivery. As was Bristol Woodlands Court No Northavon the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Bromley Northside House Yes Bromley and Government’s practice to provide details of all such Chislehurst meetings and discussions. Burton upon Crown House Yes Burton Arrangements for depositors in banks in the Isle of Trent Man are a matter for the Government of the Isle of Bury Minden House Yes Bury North Man. Cheadle Boundary House No Cheadle Chester Eden House No City of Chester Loans: Interest Rates Chesterfield Dents Chambers No Chesterfield Coatbridge Muiryhall Street Yes Coatbridge, Kate Hoey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Chryston and what assessment he has made of the merits of using his Bellshill power under section 2(4)(b) of the Inner Urban Areas Coleraine Mill House No East Londonderry Act 1978 to alter the interest rates for loans obtained Cowes The Watch House No Isle of Wight from local authorities under section 2 of that Act. Crewe Crewe House Yes Crewe and Nantwich [278241] Derby St. James House No Derby North Mr. Ian Austin: I have been asked to reply. Dumbarton Meadowbank St Yes West Dunbartonshire No such assessment has been made. 981W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 982W

Inquiry Inquiry Town Building centre Constituency Town Building centre Constituency

Edinburgh Clarendon House No Edinburgh North Wembley Valiant House Yes Brent South and Leith Whitehaven Blencathra House Yes Copeland Edinburgh Saughton House No Edinburgh South Widnes Kingsway House Yes Halton West Worthing Teville Gate House Yes Worthing West Enniskillen Custom House No Fermanagh and South Tyrone Finchley Gateway House Yes Finchley and Tax Avoidance Golders Green Glasgow Blythswood House No Glasgow Central David Taylor: To ask the Chancellor of the Greenock Dalrymple Street Yes Inverclyde Exchequer what assessment he has made of the likely Hamilton Barrack Street Yes Lanark and effects of clause 37 of Schedule 17 to the Finance Bill Hamilton East will have on HM Revenue and Customs’ ability to Harlow Terminus House No Harlow prevent tax avoidance. [278998] Hastings Ashdown House Yes Hastings and Rye Haywards Oaklands Yes Mid Sussex Mr. Timms: Clause 37 and Schedule 17 introduce a Heath reporting requirement for business that replaces the Horsham Exchange House No Horsham current Treasury Consent rules. This will provide HM Hove Martello House No Hove Revenue and Customs with early notice of high value Huntingdon Chequers Court Yes Huntingdon cross-border transactions that change the capital structure Inverness Longman House No Inverness, Nairn, of multinational groups. This information will be used Badenoch and in considering whether these transactions may have Strathspey been put in place to avoid tax, and complements other Kendal Kentmere House No Westmorland and existing anti-avoidance measures. The information provided Lonsdale will also inform policy making, enabling legislation to Leigh Boardman House Yes Leigh be introduced where necessary to close down avoidance Liverpool Norwich House No Liverpool, schemes. Riverside Liverpool Regian House Yes Liverpool, Riverside Taxation: Investment Income London Lyndhurst House, Yes Hendon Mill Hill Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Lytham St. Petros House Yes Fylde if he will estimate the effect on Exchequer revenue of Anne’s raising the dividend ordinary tax rate to 20 per cent. Maidstone Concorde House No Maidstone and and the dividend upper tax rate to 40 per cent. [275817] The Weald Middlesbrough Fountain Court Yes Middlesbrough Mr. Timms: Raising the dividend ordinary and upper Motherwell Civic Square Yes Motherwell and rates to 20 per cent. and 40 per cent. respectively is Wishaw likely to involve significant behavioural effects. The Newbury Elizabeth House Yes Newbury estimated yield incorporating these behaviour costs can Norwich Rosebery Court No Norwich North be provided only at disproportionate cost. Nottingham Bowman House No Nottingham South Nottingham Huntingdon Court No Nottingham South Taxation: Rebates Oldham Phoenix House Yes Oldham West and Royton Paisley Gilmour House Yes Paisley and Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Renfrewshire Exchequer what targets have been set in respect of the South time taken by HM Revenue and Customs to process Plymouth Custom House No Plymouth, Sutton applications for tax refunds; and what the average time Salford Anchorage 2 No Salford taken to process such applications was in each year Skipton Cavendish House Yes Skipton and since 2005. [278807] Ripon Southampton Queen’s Keep No Southampton, Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Itchen seek to strike a balance between issuing repayments as Stockport Wellesley House No Denton and quickly as possible for the benefit of customers and Reddish ensuring that the Exchequer is adequately protected Stockton Dunedin House No Stockton South against fraud. Therefore some tax repayment claims are Sutton Helena House Yes Sutton and Cheam subject to security checks, which may delay repayments Swansea Custom House No Swansea East from being made. Swindon Spring Gardens No South Swindon Refunds made from online self-assessment (income Taunton Riverside No Taunton tax and capital gains tax) returns are normally made Chambers within seven days. For paper returns, HMRC identify Truro Pydar House No Truro and St. returns on receipt marked ‘repayment’ and process these Austell as priority. Sampling of income tax self-assessment Tunbridge Union House No Tunbridge Wells Wells repayments from October 2008 to April 2009 indicates Walthamstow Church Hill Yes Walthamstow that 90 per cent. of repayments are consistently made within 30 days. 983W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 984W

Inheritance tax and national insurance contribution forward with a proposal to regulate nitrogen oxide repayments are processed in line with and meet the emissions from aviation. A proposal has not yet been HMRC’s departmental objective 2, i.e. 80 per cent. of tabled, but the UK continues to press the Commission cases to be cleared within 15 working days and 95 per to produce one. cent. to be cleared within 40 working days. For PAYE, 99.3 per cent. of repayment claims arising Carbon Emissions from tax on investment income deducted at source in 2008-09 were processed within 15 working days of receipt Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State against a target of 97 per cent. for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking Refunds processed from online self-assessment to ensure the co-ordination of information from corporation tax returns are normally made within seven Government departments and agencies in respect of days. energy efficiency; and if he will make a statement. Full data for previous years is not available. [269520]

VAT: Sunscreens Joan Ruddock: Since 2007, the Government have run high-profile marketing campaigns to engage citizens on Mr. Bruce George: To ask the Chancellor of the climate change issues. These serve to address the confusion Exchequer what revenue accrued to the Exchequer and powerlessness which can impede people from taking from value added tax on sun protection products in (a) action, and encourage genuine and sustained behaviour 2005-06, (b) 2006-07 and (c) 2007-08. [278797] change to help reduce carbon emissions and meet the UK emissions targets. Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs does not These campaigns have been run under the umbrella collect data on VAT from individual goods and services. ofACTONCO2, a Government-led and multi-partnered Welfare Tax Credits: Telephone Services behaviour change brand, which aims to provide clarity and consistency across different communications on climate change and, by extension, energy efficiency. The John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer ACTONCO website aims to signpost, interact, coordinate (a) 2 if he will allocate 0300 telephone prefixes to the and engage consumers on climate change, providing a (b) Tax Credit Helpline and the Child Benefit clear, consistent, authoritative and credible voice. The Helpline; and if he will estimate the likely level of website allows other Government departments to build savings to (i) his Department and (ii) service users of and add further climate change information as and introducing such a change. [278375] when necessary.

Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs operates TheACTONCO2 website, which includes a carbon 0845 numbers for the majority of its customers facing footprint calculator as the key engagement tool, supports helplines and has no immediate plans to allocate 0300 and amplifies all campaign activity. In running the telephone prefixes to the tax credit helpline or the child website, DECC aims to maximise opportunities to ‘cross- benefit helpline. sell’ behaviour messages between all climate change communications from Government departments, NGOs HMRC keeps its numbering strategy under regular and other partners. DECC, the Department for review. However, there is no single numbering solution Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department that meets all of HMRC’s customers’ needs, as call for Transport, Communities and Local Government, charges to customers are dependent on the tariff the Energy Saving Trust and the Carbon Trust all arrangements they have with their service provider, the provide information and advice or run campaigns, or device they use for the call and the location from which both, under ACT ON CO2. An ACT ON CO2 toolkit they call. has been developed to help facilitate a consistent message The differing tariff arrangements for customers mean and approach. that HMRC is unable to estimate the overall likely Additionally DECC is in regular contact with other savings of any such change to service users. Some relevant Government departments and delivery bodies customers will pay more, others will pay less and for such as the Energy Saving Trust and Carbon Trust to others there will be no change. share communication plans and identify potential opportunities to work together to the benefit of consumers. DECC explicitly instructs its media buying agencies to ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE avoid clashes in scheduling of advertising. DECC also shares analyses and findings on energy Air Pollution: Airports savings of various energy saving technologies with the Energy Saving Trust to ensure a consistent approach. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government also provide a range of information Energy and Climate Change what steps are being taken and support to help businesses improve their energy to include emissions of greenhouse gases other than efficiency, including through the Carbon Trust and carbon dioxide from aviation in the EU Emissions Regional Development Agencies. We are taking steps to Trading Scheme. [278649] make that information easier to access through Business Link website at: Joan Ruddock: During the negotiation of European directive 2008/101/EC, which includes aviation in the www.businesslink.gov.uk EU emissions trading system, UK-led pressure secured as part of the cross-Government Solutions for Business a commitment from the European Commission to come programme. 985W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 986W

Fuel Poverty: Elderly Number Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Lancaster 3,700 and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 20 May Liverpool 14,200 2009, Official Report, column 1481W, on fuel poverty, Macclesfield 3,700 what percentage of fuel poor homes in (a) the North Manchester 11,900 West Region and (b) the UK are the primary residence Oldham 5,700 of at least one person over 65 years. [278050] Pendle 2,600 Preston 3,600 Joan Ruddock: The most recent year for which estimates Ribble Valley 1,400 of fuel poverty are available is 2006. Around 36 per Rochdale 5,500 cent. of fuel poor households in the North West Region Rossendale 1,800 contained at least one person aged 65 or over. In England, Salford 6,400 45 per cent. of fuel poor households contained at least Sefton 8,000 one person aged 65 or over. Comparable figures are not South Lakeland 2,800 available for the UK. South Ribble 2,500 Fuel Poverty: North West St. Helens 4,900 Stockport 7,300 Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Tameside 5,800 and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 20 May Trafford 5,500 2009, Official Report, column 1481W, on fuel poverty, Vale Royal 3,100 how many fuel poor households there are in each local Warrington 4,800 authority area in the North West. [278051] West Lancashire 2,800 Wigan 8,300 Joan Ruddock: The most recent year for which estimates Wirral 9,200 of fuel poverty are available at sub-regional level is Wyre 2,900 2003. This sub-regional data for fuel poverty levels in 2003 come from the Fuel Poverty Indicator dataset, Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Transport available online at: http://www.fuelpovertyindicator.org.uk/ Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Fuel poverty figures for local authorities in the North and Climate Change what estimate his Department has West are shown as follows for 2003: made of the proportion of UK (a) carbon dioxide and (b) other greenhouse gas emissions arising from (i) Number road travel, (ii) rail travel, (iii) domestic energy use, (iv) Allerdale 2,700 agriculture, (v) shipping and (vi) hovercraft in each Barrow in Furness 2,200 year since 1997; and if he will make a statement. Blackburn with Darwen 3,900 [278447] Blackpool 4,400 Bolton 7,100 Joan Ruddock: The 2007 estimates of UK greenhouse Burnley 2,700 gas emissions were published on 3 February 2009. These Bury 4,700 statistics represent the most up-to-date information available, and can be accessed from the following link at: Carlisle 2,900 Chester 3,100 http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/statistics/globatmos/ index.htm Chorley 2,600 Congleton 2,200 The proportion of UK greenhouse gas emissions Copeland 2,100 from (i) road transport, (ii) railways, (iii) residential use, Crewe and Nantwich 3,000 (iv) agriculture and (v) domestic shipping in each year since 1997 are shown in the following table. Please note Eden 1,500 that statistics for emissions from hovercrafts are included Ellesmere Port and Neston 2,100 within the domestic shipping sector. Fylde 2,000 Halton 3,200 These percentages are based on emissions calculated Hyndburn 2,400 on an ‘End User’ basis i.e. the emissions are reallocated from the production and distribution of energy to the Knowsley 4,200 users of that energy.

Percentage contribution of specified sectors towards total emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, 1997 to 2007 by end-user Gas/sector 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

(a) Carbon dioxide (i) Road transport 24.6 24.4 24.9 24.4 24.0 25.4 24.7 24.6 24.9 24.6 25.2 (ii) Railways 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.8 (iii) Agriculture 1.4 1.4 1.4 1.3 1.4 1.4 1.4 1.3 1.3 1.3 1.2 (iv) Residential 25.6 26.6 26.2 26.7 27.3 27.2 27.3 27.5 26.9 26.9 26.2 (v) Domestic shipping 0.8 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.5 0.5 0.8 0.7 0.9 1.1 1.0 987W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 988W

Percentage contribution of specified sectors towards total emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, 1997 to 2007 by end-user Gas/sector 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

(b) All greenhouse gases (i) Road transport 19.6 19.6 20.6 20.4 20.4 21.5 21.2 21.2 21.5 21.3 21.8 (ii) Railways 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.7 0.7 0.6 0.6 0.7 0.7 0.7 (iii) Agriculture 8.8 8.7 9.0 8.6 8.2 8.5 8.3 8.3 8.2 8.1 7.9 (iv) Residential 21.2 22.2 22.5 23.1 24.0 23.9 24.1 24.4 24.0 24.0 23.4 (v) Domestic shipping 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.7 0.6 0.7 1.0 0.9

(c) Other greenhouse gases

(non-CO2) (i) Road transport 2.2 2.3 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.7 2.6 2.5 2.4 2.3 2.4 (ii) Railways 0.2 0.2 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 (iii) Agriculture 34.2 35.1 40.6 40.9 41.2 43.2 45.2 46.3 46.8 46.9 46.8 (iv) Residential 5.9 6.4 6.9 6.9 7.5 7.6 7.2 7.4 7.6 7.6 7.3 (v) Domestic shipping 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1

Renewable Energy: Research region, its assets and industries that informs collaborations and interventions with organisations such as the Technology Strategy Board. Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he has made of the benefits of increased expenditure on research and development in environmentally friendly technologies for (a) the UK, (b) the North East and CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES (c) Tees Valley. [249824] Class Sizes Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Joan Ruddock: The Department for Business, Innovation, Children, Schools and Families (1) how much funding and Skills (BIS) oversees R and D projects under its the Government have allocated to reducing class sizes collaborative R and D portfolio. in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each year since Strategic reviews of LINK, the predecessor scheme 1997; [279331] to collaborative R and D, indicate that the scheme (2) how much funding his Department has allocated generated research broadly comparable in terms of quality to recruiting teachers in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point to research funded by the Research Councils. In addition in each year since 1997. [279333] to this, the LINK review concluded that there had been substantial commercial benefits that enabled more business- Mr. Coaker: Local authorities are responsible for the relevant long term research, providing a benefit cost distribution of funding (including funding provided ratio of up to 3.8 to 1 and increased profit between £250 through the dedicated schools grant (DSG)) to schools million and £500 million. in their area. Each local authority in consultation with their Schools Forum can choose to include a factor in A more recent review of the first three calls of this their funding formula to direct resources to schools portfolio (formerly under DTI’s Collaborative Research with infant classes to enable them to meet the class size Programme) also concluded that the net present value duty. The Department does not collect information on of returns from successful projects is well above the how much funding was allocated to recruiting teachers investment cost. There is evidence of a high degree of for Essex and Castle Point schools. In 2008-09 the final ‘additionality’, which would not be expected if the DSG amount for Essex local authority was £755 million. projects were likely to produce very high private returns The 2009-10 final DSG amount for Essex is yet to be on average. Significant scope for ‘positive spillovers’ published. also exists. The most important factor influencing the GCSE extent of spillovers is the commercialisation of project outputs. A broad consortium was also found to enhance Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, spillovers. Schools and Families in how many and what proportion The Regional Development Agency (RDA) for the of secondary schools (a) at least 30 per cent. and (b) at North East region, One NorthEast, has not done any least 50 per cent. of pupils achieved five GCSEs at direct work assessing the benefits of increased expenditure. grade A* to B in each year for which figures are It is the role of the RDAs to promote the economic available; and if he will make a statement. [277515] growth of their region through the development and Mr. Coaker: The information can be provided only at implementation of a regional economic strategy.Innovation disproportionate cost. as a driver of productivity is a key priority in these plans. GCSE: History The North East regional economic strategy and action Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for plan has placed significant focus on economic change Children, Schools and Families how many and what through energy and environment technologies. This shared proportion of pupils who sat a GCSE in history at regional strategy is based on extensive stakeholder mainstream maintained schools gained a grade of A* consultation and analysis. It is this knowledge of the to C in that subject in each year since 1997. [276844] 989W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 990W

Mr. Coaker: The information requested can be found he has made of the effect of Part 8 of the Anti-Social in the following table: Behaviour Act 2003 on the maintenance of high Number and proportion of pupils who sat GCSE history at mainstream hedges; and if he will make a statement. [278483] maintained schools and who gained an A* to C grade in that subject in each year since 1997 Mr. Ian Austin: No formal assessment has yet been Number Percentage made of the effect of part 8 of the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, which came into force on 1 June 2005. Informal 1997 98,528 52.8 feedback suggests that the legislation is helping to end 1998 91,137 54.1 the misery caused by overgrown hedges, and many 1999 95,133 56.3 disputes are being resolved voluntarily. 2000 97,814 57.5 2001 100,260 57.5 Commonhold and Leasehold Act 2002 2002 100,891 58.5 2003 103,715 59.9 Mrs. Lait: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities 2004 110,869 60.6 and Local Government what consultation his Department 2005 112,615 62.3 has undertaken with leaseholders on sections 152 and 2006 115,212 62.6 153 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Act 2002 referring 2007 114,692 63.7 to statements of account in the last two years. [279435] 2008 116,272 64.5 Note: Mr. Ian Austin: The latest consultation exercise on The 1997-04 data are based on 15-year-old pupils at the start of the section 152 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform academic year. The 2005-08 data are based on pupils at the end of KS4. Act 2002 (statement of account) took place in July Source: 2007. Consultation exercises were carried out prior to Achievement and Attainment Tables this in November 1998, August 2000, and June 2004. Overseas Students: Entry Clearances These exercises have informed the amendments to the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 which Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, are contained in schedule 12 to the Housing and Schools and Families what effect the implementation of Regeneration Act 2008. Tier 4 of the points-based system for immigration has Consultation on section 153 of the Commonhold had on applications from abroad to UK independent and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 (Notice to accompany schools. [278676] demands for service charges) last took place in August 2006. Prior to this consultation took place in October Mr. Woolas: I have been asked to reply. 2002 and June 2004. This provision came into force The Home Office Data Systems records the number from 1 October 2007 and requires landlords to send a of applications made by child students applying under summary of tenants’ rights and obligations relating to the points-based system, but it does not record the service charges with demands for service charges, to number of those studying at UK independent schools. contain information prescribed in regulations. This information could be obtained only by manually cross-checking a large number of individual case files, Council Tax: Valuation which could be completed only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for It is therefore not possible to generate a report to Communities and Local Government what the average compare the number of applicants coming to study at change in the level of Band D council tax was in (a) UK independent schools, before or after the introduction England, (b) Devon and (c) East Devon in each year of Tier 4. It should also be borne in mind that Tier 4 since 1997. [278345] was introduced on 31 March, and its impact will not have settled down yet. Ms Rosie Winterton: Details of the changes in the level of Band D council tax in (a) England, (b) Devon Schools: Internet and (c) East Devon in each year since 1997 are available on the Communities and Local Government website at: Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/local Children, Schools and Families how much funding the governmentfinance/counciltax/ Government have allocated to the development of internet or e-based learning in schools in (a) Essex and Eco-towns: Finance (b) Castle Point in each year since 1997. [279332] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Coaker: The Department does not keep records Communities and Local Government pursuant to the of data on funding allocations in the form requested. answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 14 May 2009, Official Report, columns 996-97W, on eco-towns, how much his Department plans to spend on stage 2 of COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the Financial Viability Study of the eco-towns programme; and if he will make a statement. [276533] Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 Mr. Ian Austin: Our external advisers will shortly be Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for completing stage 2 of their work to support the assessment Communities and Local Government what assessment of the economic viability of the shortlisted eco-town 991W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 992W locations. Given that this work has not been completed Home Information Packs it would not be appropriate to provide a total cost at this stage. Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Eco-towns: Publicity Communities and Local Government (1) what guidance his Department issues on the continued marketing of a home with a home information pack Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for which lacks (a) a local property search and (b) Communities and Local Government pursuant to the leasehold information after 28 days from the first day answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn, Hatfield of 23 of marketing have elapsed; [277013] February 2009, Official Report, columns 108-10W, on eco-towns: expenditure, what his Department’s expenditure (2) what guidance his Department has issued to on communications, marketing, public relations, design home information pack (HIP) providers on the and media on eco-towns has been to date. [276964] provision of HIPs in (a) hard and (b) electronic copy. [277026] Mr. Ian Austin: The Department will publish a breakdown of expenditure in relation to promoting the Mr. Ian Austin: The Procedural Guidance on the eco-towns public consultation on its website in conjunction Home Information Pack (No.2) Regulations 2007 provides with the publication of its next annual report. guidance on these matters. The guidance is available on the CLG website at: Empty Property: Essex www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/hipregulations The explanatory note on section 156 of the Housing Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Act 2004 provides further guidance on the rules governing Communities and Local Government what proportion the provision of copies of the HIP. The explanatory of properties in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point were notes on the 2004 Act are available at vacant in each of the last five years. [279040] www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/en/ukpgaen_20040034_en_1 Mr. Ian Austin: Vacant dwellings as a proportion of all residential dwellings in Castle Point and Essex in Homes and Communities Agency each of the last five years are shown in the following table. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Percentage answer of 2 April 2009, Official Report, columns Castle Point Essex 1505-06W, on the Homes and Communities Agency, what the keywords or search terms monitored in the 1 November 2004 1.8 2.6 press by (a) the Homes and Communities Agency and 10 October 2005 2.0 2.8 (b) the Tenant Services Authority were in each of the 9 October 2006 2.2 2.9 last three months. [271179] 8 October 2007 2.4 2.8 6 October 2008 2.4 3.1 Mr. Ian Austin: The keywords or search terms used (a) (b) Data for Essex are the proportion of all dwellings in by the Homes and Communities Agency and the individual billing authorities including Castle Point the Tenants Services Authority in each of the last three but excluding figures for Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock months are shown in the following lists: unitary authorities. February 2009 The data are as reported annually to Communities Tenant services authority and Local Government on the CTB and CTB Tenant Services Authority (Supplementary) forms that are completed by all billing TSA authorities in England. The data relate to particular Peter Marsh dates in the autumn of each year. Anthony Mayer Flood Control Housing Corporation Homes and Communities Agency Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 Housing and Regeneration Act Communities and Local Government what progress Margaret Beckett (in connection with housing) has been made in implementing a service level CLG (in connection with housing) agreement to ensure co-ordination between the Housing Associations + housing recovery operations of different authorities during a flood; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the Local authorities + housing agreement. [278294] Homes and Communities agency Homes and Communities Agency Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government offices in the HCA regions have the responsibility of ensuring coherence English Partnerships and co-ordinating between recovery operations of different authorities during a flood. The ‘Core Regional Resilience Milton Keynes Partnership Capability’ document, which formalises this role, was Academy for Sustainable Communities agreed in December 2008 and is now in force. ASC I am today placing a copy of this document in the HCA Academy Library. Homes and Communities Agency Academy 993W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 994W

Brownfield Skills was delivered by the former English Partnerships in Regeneration 2008-09 prior to 1 December 2008). There were however March 2009 transfers of funding between regions during 2008-09 within the National Affordable Housing programme Tenant Services Authority (this programme was delivered by the investment arm Tenant Services Authority of the Housing Corporation in 2008-09 prior to 1 TSA December 2008); this information is being collated and Peter Marsh will be placed in the Library shortly. Anthony Mayer Housing Corporation Housing: Carbon Emissions Homes and Communities Agency 2008 Housing and Regeneration Act Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Margaret Beckett (in connection with housing) Communities and Local Government (1) how many CLG (in connection with housing) applications for planning permission for zero carbon Homes and Communities Agency homes were (a) requested and (b) granted in each of the last three years; [272221] Homes and Communities Agency (2) how many planning applications for zero carbon HCA homes have been made in each Government office English Partnerships region in each of the last 12 quarters; [272204] Milton Keynes Partnership (3) how many zero carbon homes have been (a) Academy for Sustainable Communities started and (b) completed in each of the last three ASC years; [272220] HCA Academy Homes and Communities Agency Academy Mr. Ian Austin: While information is collected centrally Brownfield Skills on housing planning permissions, starts and completions, Regeneration this does not separately identify zero carbon homes. April 2009 Furthermore there is no requirement for local planning authorities to keep records which separately identify Tenant Services Authority zero carbon homes. Tenant Services Authority TSA Housing: Construction Peter Marsh Anthony Mayer Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Homes and Communities Agency Communities and Local Government pursuant to the CLG (in connection with housing) answer of 23 February 2009, Official Report, column Homes and Communities Agency 107W, on the design for manufacture programme, if he Homes and Communities Agency will place in the Library a copy of the initial study HCA commissioned by the Homes and Communities Agency from the chartered surveyors in 2008. [276965] English Partnerships Milton Keynes Partnership Mr. Ian Austin: The purpose of the chartered surveyors’ Academy for Sustainable Communities interim report was to aid HCA’s understanding of the ASC progress being made by developers in achieving the HCA Academy £60,000 target cost across the Design for Manufacture Homes and Communities Agency Academy Competition. Brownfield Skills The work comprised a sampling exercise that was not Regeneration designed to be published because it would be likely to mislead the reader as to the performance of developers Homes and Communities Agency: Finance and building systems over time. Releasing this partial information could unfairly prejudice the commercial Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for interests of developers and their supply chains. Communities and Local Government what transfers of The HCA plans to disseminate lessons learned from underspend in one Government office region the the competition once the final costs have been received, Homes and Communities Agency has allocated to and based on a more comprehensive analysis of the other Government office regions in respect of 2008-09. completed outturn costs for all developers over the life [270238] of the competition. Mr. Ian Austin: The Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) was established from 1 December 2008. From Housing: Low Incomes that date until 31 March 2009, for those programmes which transferred to the HCA from Communities and Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government, the HCA did not make any transfers Communities and Local Government what proportion of funding between regions. Nor were there any transfers of initial equity was purchased on average under the of funding between regions in 2008-09 within the HCA’s Social HomeBuy scheme in each of the last three years. Property and Regeneration programme (this programme [274849] 995W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 996W

Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the average Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for equity value of properties purchased under Social HomeBuy Communities and Local Government (1) what the average schemes in England since 2006-07, when the Social sale price of a property purchased under the (a) Social HomeBuy scheme started. HomeBuy, (b) Right to Acquire and (c) Right to Buy Social HomeBuy scheme was in each year since 1997; [274865] Average value of equity (£) (2) what estimate he has made of the average monetary value of a domestic property in the social 2006-07 132,630 sector in each of the last five years. [274866] 2007-08 143,740 2008-09 127,480 Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the average Source: price of a property purchased under Social HomeBuy, Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) Investment Management Right to Acquire and Right to Buy in England, for each System (IMS) year since 1997-98.

£ Registered social landlord Social HomeBuy Right to Acquire Local authority Right to Buy Right to Buy

1997-98 — — 43,100 48,910 1998-99 — — 45,490 51,110 1999-2000 — — 48,950 53,050 2000-01 — — 51,090 52,510 2001-02 — 47,190 53,520 50,780 2002-03 — 54,600 58,660 59,370 2003-04 — 65,540 66,840 58,630 2004-05 — 71,920 77,180 64,210 2005-06 — 83,230 83,470 72,160 2006-07 157,010 87,110 92,770 81,960 2007-08 155,860 108,100 103,470 89,750 Source: PIB quarterly returns to CLG from local authorities, and Continuous Recording (CORE) returns from Registered Social Landlords to the Tenant Services Authority (TSA)

CLG does not collect information about average Percentage monetary values of social housing properties. The figures are for the average property price of social homes sold Product 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 by social landlords under the Social HomeBuy, Right to Open Market 78 85 68 Acquire and Right to Buy schemes in England. HomeBuy MyChoice n/a n/a 65 These property price figures are based on the total HomeBuy property price, not the amount paid by the purchaser, Own Home n/a n/a 65 who is entitled to a discount on the market value and First Time 53 53 56 may only be purchasing a share of the equity in the Buyers property. Initiative The average property price is not shown for the Right Source: to Acquire sales prior to 2001-02, due to a low number Homes and Communities Agency’s Information Management of sales in each year. System. 2008-09 figures are not yet available from CORE. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what amounts Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for were transferred from one region to another with respect Communities and Local Government pursuant to the to the regional allocations for the National Affordable answer of 8 May 2009, Official Report, columns 447-48W Housing Programme in each of the last three years. on housing: low incomes, what the average percentage [275578] equity stake purchased by a buyer has been in each year Mr. Ian Austin: The information requested is being in which each of the schemes has been operational. collated and will be placed in the House Library shortly. [275561] Non-domestic Rates Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the initial Communities and Local Government which were the average percentage equity stake purchased by a buyer in groups described as representing ratepayers who expect each year since each scheme has been operational. significant rises in their rate bills and who are pressing for a five-year scheme on page 15 of the document Percentage NNDR Transitional Arrangements: Consultation, Product 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 published by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister Social 85 89 84 in August 2004; and if he will make a statement. HomeBuy [278453] 997W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 998W

Ms Rosie Winterton: A full list of those consulted is Transition Towns Movement at Annex B to the Consultation document published in August 2004. A total of 66 responses were received. 41 Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for responded in favour of a four-year transitional scheme. Communities and Local Government what recent Nine respondents favoured a five-year transitional scheme. discussions he has had with the Transition Towns These are as follows: Movement; and whether her Department has British Chamber of Commerce; undertaken research into transition towns. [278800] Broadland District Council; Mr. Ian Austin: In March, my right hon. Friend the Drax Power Station; Member for Salford (Hazel Blears) met the Totnes (The) Energy Network; branch of the Transition Network to hear about its GVA Grimley; work to support community engagement and North Norfolk District Council; empowerment, and foster ‘green’ lifestyle choices. Officials Rating Surveyors Association; also visited Totnes, in May, where they met with various South Holland District Council; ‘Transitioners’ and heard about a variety of projects Wychavon District Council. such as garden share schemes, plans for a new zero carbon development, and plans for the local Energy Service Company. Non-domestic Rates: Valuation

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he DEFENCE has made of the administrative cost to (a) the Afghanistan Valuation Office Agency, (b) local authorities and (c) his Department of the (i) 2005 ratings list revaluation Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for and (ii) 2010 ratings list revaluation. [278336] Defence how many Afghan nationals have received military training in the UK in each year since 2001. Ms Rosie Winterton: Five-yearly revaluations are part [278947] of the normal operation of the rating system and form part of the everyday work of Communities and Local Bill Rammell: 51 Afghan nationals have received military Government and local authorities. No assessment of training in the UK since 2001. the administration costs has been made for either Communities and Local Government or local authorities. Number

The estimated cost incurred by the Valuation Office 2001 0 Agency in undertaking the 2005 rating revaluation was 2002 0 £47.328 million and the estimated cost of undertaking 2003 0 the 2010 rating revaluation is £51.5 million. 2004 1 2005 5 Planning Permission: Fees and Charges 2006 14 2007 24 Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 2 Communities and Local Government whether 2009 to date 5 planning authorities are able to exempt educational and charitable organisations from planning fees in Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations order to encourage sustainable development. [279051] Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: Local planning authorities are unable Defence who has operational responsibility for air to exempt educational and charitable organisations from combat missions flown by UK aircraft in Afghanistan; planning fees. Planning permission is normally given in and where that person is based. [278964] relation to the land to which it relates, and there is no guarantee that the successful applicant will be the one Mr. Quentin Davies: UK Fast Air fixed wing aircraft to implement the permission. Only in very exceptional and Apache helicopters fly combat missions in support instances is permission given that is personal and exclusive of ISAF operations in Afghanistan and are under the to an individual or corporate applicant, with a presumption operational command of Commander Joint Operations. that it will come to an end if the land ownership For fast air fixed wing aircraft, in theatre operational changes. control is provided by the Deputy Coalition Forces Air Component Commander, based in Al Udeid. In theatre, Accordingly, the planning system does not offer any operational control for Apache helicopters is provided special rate, as such, for applications it receives from by Commander ISAF. charities or educational organisations, and there are no plans at present to change this. There are two exceptions Armed Conflict: Afghanistan to the above: certain works to improve access to buildings for disabled people are exempt from planning fees, and Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence applications from non-profit-making sport or recreational how many systems to investigate and provide organisations to carry out certain works and changes of compensation for civilian casualties of International use at sports grounds are liable to pay only at a Security Assistance Force operations are in place in concessionary rate. Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [278767] 999W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1000W

Mr. Hutton: Compensation claims brought against Further data broken down by rank, regiment and age the Ministry of Defence as part of the International cohort are not maintained centrally and could be provided Security Assistance Force are considered on the basis of only at disproportionate cost. To obtain these details whether or not the Department has a legal liability to would require the examination of the individual medical pay compensation. Where there is a proven legal liability records of each of the patients who has been classified compensation is paid. as very seriously injured (VSI) or seriously injured (SI) The system in place for handling claims for compensation for the period of the deployment. These records can brought against the Ministry of Defence by Afghanistan only be viewed for non-clinical reasons with the express civilians is through the Department’s Area Claims Office consent of the individual concerned, to protect patient based in Lashkar Gah, capital of Helmand province. confidentiality. Claims staff rotate through Musa Qaleh and Sangin The three tables present annual numbers of medical and visit support bases at Kandahar and Kabul to discharges by service between 1997 and 2007, for those handle claims which arise at these locations. discharges where mental and behavioural disorders or Other members of the International Security Assistance musculoskeletal disorders and injuries were the principal Force have their own systems in place to handle cause leading to medical discharge. Figures for 2008 are compensation claims. currently being collated and are not yet available. Naval Service1 medical discharges, by principal cause groups mental and behavioural disorders and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, number, 1997- Armed Forces: Data Protection 2007 ICD cause group Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Musculoskeletal Defence if he will take steps to standardise the data Year of discharge Mental disorders disorders and injuries gathered in records of discharge from the armed forces. 1997 16 223 [278835] 1998 31 286 1999 25 321 Bill Rammell: The Service Leavers Certificate has 2000 42 333 been standardised through the implementation of the 2001 30 290 Joint Personnel Administration system (JPA). The JPA 2002 38 276 termination process is common to all three services and 2003 42 202 requires the same input from units, individuals and 2004 29 211 service manning authorities. However, the administering 2005 46 223 of discharges and the issue of associated discharge 2006 42 206 documentation differs between the three services, reflecting 2007 40 187 their individual structures and organisation. 1 Naval Service includes Royal Navy and Royal Marines Army medical discharges, by principal cause groups mental and behavioural disorders and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, number, 1997-2007 Armed Forces: Health Services ICD cause group Musculoskeletal Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Year of discharge Mental disorders disorders and injuries how many armed forces personnel of each (a) rank, 1997 86 790 (b) regiment and (c) age cohort have been treated for 1998 94 776 (i) psychological disorders, (ii) post-traumatic stress 1999 58 804 disorder and (iii) physical injuries in each year since 2000 64 745 1997; how many have been discharged as a 2001 104 722 consequence of (A) a psychological disorder and (B) a 2002 112 734 physical injury in each such year; which countries each 2003 90 696 had served in; and how long each had served before 2004 121 723 discharge. [277005] 2005 119 676 2006 111 629 Mr. Kevan Jones: Since July 2007 the Defence Analytical 2007 114 596 Services and Advice (DASA) organisation has reported RAF medical discharges, by principal cause groups mental and behavioural on the treatment figures for psychological disorders and disorders and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, number, 1997-2007 post-traumatic stress disorders, psychiatric morbidity, ICD cause group of the UK armed forces. Quarterly reports for the Musculoskeletal whole of 2007 and the first two quarters of 2008 are Year of discharge Mental disorders disorders and injuries available both in the Library of the House and on the DASA website at 1997 19 143 1998 18 91 www.dasa.mod.uk 1999 13 90 Equivalent verified data prior to 2007 are not available 2000 21 113 and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2001 20 71 Casualty statistics are published on a fortnightly 2002 13 79 basis on the MOD website at: 2003 28 108 2004 65 71 www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/Operations Factsheets/ 2005 38 51 Operations InAfghanistanBritishCasualties.htm_(Afghanistan) 2006 78 87 www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/Operations Factsheets/ 2007 49 109 OperationsIn IraqBritishCasualties.htm_(Iraq) 1001W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1002W

It is not possible to provide information on the location to discharge was due to mental and behavioural disorders where the personnel who were medically discharged is 10.3 years. The table provides a breakdown by length served as this information is not held centrally and of service and year of discharge, 1997-2007. could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The average length of service for Naval Service personnel medically discharged where the principal cause leading

Length of service for Naval Service1 personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of mental and behavioural disorders, by length of service, number2, 1997- 2007 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 1631254230384229464240 Less than 5 2— 2— 2—131212161112117 Greater than or equal to 5 but 2—12995786141217 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 2—7688972—62— 2— but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 2—52—62—565996 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 2———2——2— 2——2— 2—— but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 2— 2———————2— 2— 2— but less than 35 35ormore ——————————— Not known3 ——————————2— 1 Naval Service includes Royal Navy and Royal Marines 2 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines 3 Entry date information not available

The average length of service for Naval Service personnel injuries is 11.5 years. The table provides a breakdown medically discharged where the principal cause leading by length of service and year of discharge, 1997-2007. to discharge was due to musculoskeletal disorders and

Length of service for Naval Service1 personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, by length of service, number2, 1997-2007 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 223 286 321 333 290 276 202 211 223 206 187 Less than 5 23 36 62 74 63 50 32 35 45 68 58 Greater than or equal to 5 but 98 94 88 74 51 50 48 66 72 45 53 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 39 72 66 86 80 100 60 52 44 25 23 but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 30 39 46 48 45 41 32 26 43 40 27 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 21 36 52 40 40 26 22 21 14 15 20 but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 2— 2— 2— 2—62— 2— 2— 2—96 but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 2— 2— 2— 2— 2—52———2—— but less than 35 35 or more — — 2——2— 2——2— 2— 2—— Not known3 —————————2—— 1 Naval Service includes Royal Navy and Royal Marines 2 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines 3 Entry date information not available

The average length of service for Army personnel is 7.1 years. The table provides a breakdown by length medically discharged where the principal cause leading of service and year of discharge, 1997-2007. to discharge was due to mental and behavioural disorders

Length of service for Army personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of mental and behavioural disorders, by length of service, numbers1, 1997-2007

Year of discharge

Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 86 94 58 64 104 112 90 121 119 111 114

Less than 5 38 37 30 28 49 48 55 62 56 53 50 1003W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1004W

Length of service for Army personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of mental and behavioural disorders, by length of service, numbers1, 1997-2007 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Greater than or equal to 5 but 353651425261528233034 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 613111— 14 16 8 16 13 9 16 but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 5 1— 1—1051271—19109 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 1— 1— 1— 1—81—51— 1— 1— 1— but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 1————1— 1———1— 1— 1— but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 ————1———1———— but less than 35 35ormore ————1——————— 1 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines

The average length of service for Army personnel injuries is 3.4 years. The table provides a breakdown by medically discharged where the principal cause leading length of service and year of discharge, 1997-2007. to discharge was due to musculoskeletal disorders and

Length of service for Army personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, by length of service, number1, 1997- 2007 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 790 776 804 745 722 734 696 723 676 629 597 Less than 5 519 562 610 557 520 525 544 545 495 457 455 Greater than or equal to 5 but 163 116 97 90 74 79 63 81 86 78 64 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 70 62 66 63 66 78 45 34 36 28 27 but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 19 27 20 19 29 1—2731313834 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 1— 1—111—311—1727232415 but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 1———1— 1———1— 1— 1— 1— but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 — 1————1——1— 1— 1— 1— but less than 35 35ormore ————1———1— 1——— Not known2 ——————————— 1 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines 2 Entry date information not available

The average length of service for RAF personnel to mental and behavioural disorders is nine years. The medically discharged with a principal cause of discharged table provides a breakdown by length of service and where the principal cause leading to discharge was due year of discharge, 1997-2007.

Length of service for RAF personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of mental and behavioural disorders, by length of service, number1, 1997-200 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 1918132120132865387849 Less than 5 1— 1— 1—71— 1— 7 39 21 36 21 Greater than or equal to 5 but 881—51— 1— 1— 12 7 23 12 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 1— 1— 1— 1—91— 1— 1— 1—65 but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 1— 1—51— 1— 1—71— 1—57 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 — 1——1— 1— 1—6101— 1— 1— but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 1———1— 1— 1——1— 1— 1—— but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 ————1——1———1— 1— but less than 35 35ormore ————————1——— 1 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines 1005W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1006W

The average length of service for RAF personnel injuries is 11.8 years. The table provides a breakdown medically discharged where the principal cause leading by length of service and year of discharge, 1997-2007. to discharge was due to musculoskeletal disorders and

Length of service for RAF personnel medically discharged with a principal cause of and musculoskeletal disorders and injuries, by length of service, number1, 1997-2007 Year of discharge Length of service (years) 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

All 143 91 90 113 71 79 108 71 51 87 109 Less than 5 36 17 18 38 18 20 17 27 11 17 15 Greater than or equal to 5 but 37 30 21 14 7 5 17 15 13 22 29 less than 10 Greater than or equal to 10 24 12 27 25 11 17 24 5 6 7 12 but less than 15 Greater than or equal to 15 15 7 6 11 15 11 9 6 9 15 17 but less than 20 Greater than or equal to 20 18149141218235 6 821 but less than 25 Greater than or equal to 25 8551— 1— 1—871—111— but less than 30 Greater than or equal to 30 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— but less than 35 35 or more 1— 1— 1— 1— 1—— 71— 1— 1— 1— Not known21— 1— 1— 1———1— 1——1—— 1 Small numbers have been suppressed in line with Office for National Statistics Guidelines 2 Entry date information not available

Information detailing the countries served in by each Army: Vehicles armed forces personnel discharged with a psychological disorder or physical injury is not held centrally and Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Defence how many combat vehicles of each type are in Armed Forces: Pensions service with each infantry battalion; who the manufacturer of each type of vehicle is; and how many of each type of vehicle are available under urgent Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for operational requirements to each battalion. [278966] Defence (1) what recent assessment he has made of levels of poverty amongst armed forces veterans who Mr. Quentin Davies: The information requested for retired before 1975 and do not receive a full armed all “combat” vehicles is not held centrally and could be forces pension; [278915] provided only at disproportionate cost. (2) what welfare provision his Department offers to The number of armoured tracked vehicles in service people who retired from the armed forces before 1975. with each Infantry Battalion is shown in the following [278918] table.

Mr. Kevan Jones: The Government do not collect Unit Warrior CVR(T) FV430 statistics on the number of ex-service personnel living in poverty. Veterans facing difficulties in their civilian lives 1st Battalion The Scots Guards 26 8 8 have access to the free veterans helpline and the Veterans 4th Battalion The Royal 28 12 9 Regiment of Scotland Welfare Service which provide advice and support, as 1st Battalion The Princess of 26 13 4 well as to the UK benefits provided for those in need. Wales’s Royal Regiment The Service Personnel Command Paper (The Nations 1st Battalion The Duke of 0836 Commitment: Cross Government Support to our Armed Lancashire Regiment Forces, their families and veterans) published by the 1st Battalion The Royal 34 16 11 Government in July 2008 show our commitment to all Regiment of Fusiliers veterans. 1st Battalion The Royal 01258 It is the first cross Government strategy to improve Anglian Regiment 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire 30 18 20 the level of support given to serving personnel, their Regiment families and veterans. It contains over 40 commitments 3rd Battalion The Mercian 44 16 5 aimed at ending any disadvantage imposed by the unique Regiment demands of service life and providing special treatment 2nd Battalion The Royal Welsh 38 11 5 where appropriate. 4th Battalion The Rifles 0 10 61 5th Battalion The Rifles 21 12 9 Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people who retired from the armed BAE Systems (formerly Alvis Vickers) manufactures forces before 1975 do not receive an armed forces all three vehicle types. None of these vehicles were pension; and how many of those had over (a) 20, (b) procured through the Urgent Operational Requirement 15 and (c) 10 years service. [278917] process. We do not release the numbers of vehicles available for deployment on operations, as its disclosure Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally would be likely to prejudice the security and capability and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. of the armed forces. 1007W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1008W

Puma Helicopters to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces, prejudice relations between the United Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Kingdom and another state or prejudice commercial Defence whether his Department has awarded the interests. contract for the upgrade of the Puma helicopters; and if he will make a statement. [278758] Somalia: Piracy

Mr. Quentin Davies: No contract for the upgrade of Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence our Puma helicopters has been placed. pursuant to the answer of 28 April 2009, Official Report, column 1159W, on Somalia: piracy, what RAND Corporation records the Royal Navy keeps of the (a) identity and (b) activities of piracy suspects captured by its forces; and if he will make a statement. [273044] Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of each study Bill Rammell: When suspected pirates are encountered, commissioned by his Department from the RAND Royal Navy personnel will collect evidence and take Corporation since 1997. [249733] witness statements, as the police would during a criminal investigation. This information is then used to assess Mr. Quentin Davies: The following studies are accessible whether the evidence against the pirates is sufficiently electronically as follows: strong to merit transfer to a third party state for the Remuneration and its Motivation of Service Personnel: Focus purpose of further investigation and, if appropriate, Group Investigation and Analysis prosecution. If such a transfer is made, the evidence is http://www.rand.org/pubs/documented_briefings/DB549/ passed to the authorities of the receiving state. Motivations and Attitudes of New Recruits Regarding The Royal Navy keeps a record of those suspected Remuneration Issues: Focus Group Investigation and Analysis pirates detained and transferred to the Kenyan authorities. http://www.rand.org/pubs/documented_briefings/DB551/ Information Sharing Among Military Headquarters: The Impact on Decision Making http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG226/ BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Outsourcing and Outfitting Practices: Implications for the Ministry of Defence Shipbuilding Programmes Learning for Pleasure http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG198/ Monitoring the Progress of Shipbuilding Programmes: How 10. Mrs. Cryer: To ask the Minister of State, Can the Defence Procurement Agency More Accurately Monitor Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Progress? steps he is taking to encourage people to learn for http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG235/ pleasure. [279011] Differences Between Military and Commercial Shipbuilding: Implications for the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence Ms Rosie Winterton: “The Learning Revolution”White http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG236/ Paper sets out our ambitious vision for informal learning Options for Reducing Costs in the United Kingdom’s Future in the 21st century, with an extra £30 million funding. Aircraft Carrier (CVF) Programme http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG240/ University Places The United Kingdom’s Naval Shipbuilding Industrial Base: The Next Fifteen Years 11. Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Minister of State, http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG294/ Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how The United Kingdom’s Nuclear Submarine Industrial Base, many applications for university places were made for Volume 1: Sustaining Design and Production Resources the academic year 2008-09; and how many students http://www.rand.Org/pubs/monographs/MG326.l/ were accepted. [279012] The United Kingdom’s Nuclear Submarine Industrial Base, Volume 2: Ministry of Defence Roles and Required Technical Mr. Lammy: UCAS data on full-time undergraduates Resources shows there were 502,000 UK domiciled applicants last http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG326.2/ year. The United Kingdom’s Nuclear Submarine Industrial Base, Of that, 405,000 had accepted a place by the end of Volume 3: Options for Initial Fuelling clearing. http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG326.3/ Sustaining Key Skills in the UK Naval Industry 18. Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG725/ what estimate he has made of the number of new The Royal Navy’s New-Generation Type 45 Destroyer: Acquisition students who will apply for university and college Options and Implications places in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [279022] http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1486/ Assembling and Supporting the Joint Strike Fighter in the Mr. Lammy: There were 457,000 UK domiciled UCAS UK: Issues and Costs applicants as of March this year. This is a 35,000 http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1771/ increase on the same point last year. Copies of some studies are not held or are being We do not have any estimates of applicant numbers withheld as their disclosure would, or would be likely for 2010. 1009W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1010W

Royal Mail SWRDA, against their corporate plan objectives through the RDA tasking and performance framework. These 12. Mr. Mackay: To ask the Minister of State, arrangements are under review as part of the SNR Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what implementation. Further information will be laid in the recent progress has been made on the proposed House Library. part-privatisation of Royal Mail. [279014] Further Education Capital Budget Mr. McFadden: The process to find a strategic partner for Royal Mail is ongoing. There has been interest and 17. Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Minister of State, we are pursuing this with the companies concerned. As Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the Secretary of State has said criteria apply to allocation of funding from the further “Our criteria, set out clearly in February, make it clear that any education capital budget; and if he will make a strategic partner must be motivated to modernise Royal Mail over statement. [279019] the long term, and must offer value for money for the taxpayer. We will not do a deal at any price. There is some way to go and it may well take longer to reach agreement with a partner than it Kevin Brennan: In line with Sir Andrew Foster’s takes to debate and agree this Bill.” recommendations, the Learning and Skills Council has been consulting on the best approach to prioritise projects. For commercial confidentiality reasons, it would not be appropriate to reveal the identities of the potential It has been confirmed that this will involve two partners. processes—the first to ensure urgent projects can go ahead in the summer, the second to enable needs-based Student Finance projects to go ahead as further funding is made available. The criteria for projects to proceed in the first process 13. Mr. Randall: To ask the Minister of State, include: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what whether the project is ready to start; the proposed timetable and scope is of his its education and skills impact; Department’s review of student finance. [279015] its contribution to local economic and regeneration priorities; Mr. Lammy: My right hon. Friend, the then Secretary co-dependency with third parties; of State for Education and Skills, told the House in the condition of the estate; and January 2004 that there would be an independent review value for money. of tuition fees once we had evidence on the first three years of the variable fee regime. The first three years of Basic Skills operation will not be concluded until the autumn. Ahead of the tuition fee review, the Government will publish Mr. Marsden: To ask the Minister of State, their framework for the future development of higher Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what education. steps his Department plans to take to ensure the Balance of Trade: UK and India delivery of the Government’s Skills Agenda. [279013]

15. Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister of State, Kevin Brennan: This Department will continue to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what ensure the delivery of the Government Skills agenda. In the balance of trade between the UK and India was in support of these measures: the latest period for which figures are available; and if we are this year spending an unprecedented £5 billion on adult he will make a statement. [279017] skills, including £925 million on Train to Gain; we are spending over £1 billion on apprenticeships, bringing Mr. McFadden: Bilateral trade between the UK and Government funding for apprenticeships to its highest ever India is worth £12.13 billion. level; Exports of UK goods and services to India in 2008 we are providing targeted help for those who have lost their jobs or are facing redundancy; and amounted to £5.89 billion1. we are investing a further £1 billion per year until 2010-11 in Imports of goods and services from India to the UK Skills for Life. in 2008 amounted to £6.24 billion1. 1Source: Office of National Statistics. Mr. David Jones: To ask the Minister of State, South West Regional Development Agency Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of the UK’s skills base. [279023] 16. Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Kevin Brennan: This Department will continue to if he will assess the performance of the South West ensure the successful delivery of the Government Skills Regional Development Agency against its objectives. agenda. [279018] Train to Gain has helped nearly one million learners Mr. McFadden: RDAs, through their corporate plans and thousands of businesses. Starts in 2007-08 totalled set out key organisational objectives and deliverables. 331,800—an increase of 60.8 per cent. on 2006-07. These set out their contributions to the Regional Economic Apprenticeship starts have increased from 65,000 in Strategies. The Department has well established 1996-97 to 224,800 for 2007-09. This represents the arrangements to assess the performance of RDAs, including largest ever number of people starting an Apprenticeship. 1011W Written Answers11 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1012W

Over 5.7 million adults have engaged with the Skills policies of his Department have objectives to increase for Life programme. 12 million Skills for Life opportunities social mobility. [278999] have been taken up, with over 2.8 million adults gaining a first qualification. We have met the 2010 target of 2.25 million achievements in skills for life two years early. Mr. McFadden: The ‘New Opportunities’ White Paper Low-Carbon Economy sets out Government’s commitment to help people get on and get ahead. The key actions we are taking include Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Minister of State, expanding apprenticeships; tackling the NEET problem; Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what and widening participation in HE. We are tripling the recent steps his Department has taken to assist in the number of career development loans and maximising development of a low-carbon economy. [279021] the help that FE colleges and providers can give to individuals looking for work or wanting to get on. Mr. McFadden: A low carbon economy represents a Building enterprise capability and the confidence and huge economic opportunity for the UK, and is at the ambition to start a business are critical and we are heart of ‘New Industry, New Jobs’, the Government’s supporting some key activities to enable individuals and strategic vision for Britain’s economic recovery. Budget businesses to start and grow. We are: 2009 provided £1.4 billion of extra targeted support in the low carbon sector. The Low Carbon Industrial Working with young people to provide them with experience of Strategy, to be published this summer, will provide a enterprise and opportunities to develop the necessary skills and framework to ensure UK business and workers can confidence; compete successfully for the jobs of the low carbon Directly supporting individuals to hone their ideas and start a future. business as well as established businesses who want to thrive and Social Mobility grow through the Government’s streamlined portfolio of business support products and services, delivered via Business Link; Lynda Waltho: To ask the Minister of State, And helping to remove barriers to enterprise especially improving Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what access to finance. 9MC Ministerial Corrections11 JUNE 2009 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Higher rate taxpayers Ministerial Corrections Number of pensioners Proportion of all paying HR pensioner Proportion of all Thursday 11 June 2009 income tax taxpayers pensioners (thousand) (percentage) (percentage)

2001-02 210 4 2 2002-03 220 4 2 TREASURY 2003-04 230 5 2 2004-05 290 6 3 Taxation: Pensioners 2005-06 300 6 3 2006-07 330 6 3 Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2007-08 370 6 3 with reference to the answer of 11 February 2004, Official Report, columns 1489-90W, on pensions Non-higher rate taxpayers (taxation), if he will estimate the number of pensioners Number of pensioners Proportion of all paying income tax at the (a) higher and (b) basic rate paying non-HR pensioner Proportion of all in each year since 2001-02; and what percentage of income tax taxpayers pensioners (i) all pensioner taxpayers and (ii) all pensioners these (thousand) (percentage) (percentage) figures represent in each year. [264595] 2001-02 4,570 96 42 [Official Report, 23 March 2009, Vol. 490, c. 95W.] 2002-03 4,700 96 43 Letter of correction from Ian Pearson: 2003-04 4,470 95 41 2004-05 4,830 95 43 Errors have been identified in the tables that were 2005-06 4,790 94 43 presented in the written answer given to the hon. Member 2006-07 5,250 94 46 for Northavon (Steve Webb) on 23 March 2009. Both 2007-08 5,420 94 47 tables contained two entries for the year 2003-04. The Notes: final entry for the year 2007-08 in the first table for 1. Figures up to 2006-07 are based on the Survey of Personal Incomes in that higher rate taxpayers was incorrect, and the final three year. entries for the years 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08 in 2. Figures for 2007-08 are based on the Survey of Personal Incomes in 2006-07 projected forward one year in line with Pre-Budget 2008 report. the second table were also incorrect. 3. Figures for the number of pensioners paying income tax have been rounded to the nearest 10,000. The correct answer is as follows: 4. Pensioners have been defined as men aged 65 and over and women aged 60 and over. Ian Pearson: The information requested is in the 5. All pensioners figures are mid-year population estimates supplied by the following tables. Office for National Statistics.

ORALS ANSWERS

Thursday 11 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 915 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult Numeracy and Literacy ...... 924 Human Tissue Legislation ...... 915 Apprenticeship Courses ...... 926 Intellectual Property ...... 926 Extremist Activity (University Campuses) ...... 916 Scientific Research ...... 918 Further Education Colleges ...... 921 Small Businesses ...... 916 Higher Education Facilities...... 925 Topical Questions ...... 928 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 11 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY HEALTH...... 45WS REFORM ...... 43WS Department of Health Annual Report 2009...... 45WS Competitiveness Council, Brussels...... 43WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 45WS Belarus Agreement...... 48WS CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 44WS Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 45WS Elective Home Education...... 44WS JUSTICE...... 49WS Legal Advice ...... 49WS GOVERNMENT EQUALITIES...... 50WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 50WS Equality Bill: A Consultation...... 50WS Right to Control (Disabled People)...... 50WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 11 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1008W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Balance of Trade: UK and India...... 1009W continued Basic Skills...... 1010W Non-domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 997W Further Education Capital Budget...... 1010W Planning Permission: Fees and Charges ...... 997W Learning for Pleasure...... 1008W Transition Towns Movement...... 998W Low-Carbon Economy ...... 1011W Royal Mail ...... 1009W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 968W Social Mobility ...... 1011W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 968W South West Regional Development Agency ...... 1009W Football Foundation: Finance ...... 969W Student Finance...... 1009W Heroes Return 2 Scheme ...... 969W University Places...... 1008W UK Film Council: Pay ...... 969W

CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 988W DEFENCE...... 998W Class Sizes...... 988W Afghanistan ...... 998W GCSE ...... 988W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 998W GCSE: History...... 988W Armed Conflict: Afghanistan...... 998W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 989W Armed Forces: Data Protection ...... 999W Schools: Internet...... 989W Armed Forces: Health Services ...... 999W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 1005W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 989W Army: Vehicles...... 1006W Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003...... 989W Puma Helicopters...... 1007W Commonhold and Leasehold Act 2002...... 990W RAND Corporation ...... 1007W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 990W Somalia: Piracy ...... 1008W Eco-towns: Finance ...... 990W Eco-towns: Publicity ...... 991W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 970W Empty Property: Essex...... 991W Local Government: Reorganisation ...... 970W Flood Control...... 991W Home Information Packs...... 992W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 983W Homes and Communities Agency...... 992W Air Pollution: Airports...... 983W Homes and Communities Agency: Finance ...... 993W Carbon Emissions...... 984W Housing: Carbon Emissions...... 994W Fuel Poverty: Elderly...... 985W Housing: Construction...... 994W Fuel Poverty: North West...... 985W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 994W Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Transport ...... 986W Non-domestic Rates...... 996W Renewable Energy: Research...... 987W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL JUSTICE—continued AFFAIRS...... 960W Crimes of Violence: Reoffenders...... 954W Fisheries: Manpower...... 960W Departmental Billing ...... 955W Fisheries: Quotas ...... 960W Legal Aid ...... 956W Fishing Vessels ...... 961W Legal Aid: South West ...... 957W Rats...... 961W Probation ...... 957W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 965W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 971W Afghanistan ...... 965W Departmental Data Protection...... 971W China: Censorship ...... 965W Czech Republic: Treaty of Lisbon...... 965W OLYMPICS ...... 970W Departmental Finance ...... 966W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 970W European Union: Civil Servants...... 966W Olympic Games 2012: Finance...... 971W Iraq: Iran ...... 967W Olympics Games 2012: Safety ...... 971W Middle East ...... 967W Poland: Treaty of Lisbon ...... 967W SCOTLAND...... 970W Republic of Ireland: Treaty of Lisbon...... 968W Departmental Data Protection...... 970W Tibet ...... 968W TRANSPORT ...... 957W HEALTH...... 962W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Databases... 957W Children in Care: Kent...... 962W Driving: Licensing...... 958W Drugs...... 962W London Gateway Port...... 958W Health Services: Coventry...... 963W Motor Vehicles: Foreigners ...... 958W Immediate Care...... 963W Road Traffic...... 959W Intensive Care ...... 964W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 960W NHS: Public Consultation ...... 964W Patients: Death...... 964W TREASURY ...... 978W Banks: Regulation...... 978W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 933W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 978W Animal Experiments ...... 933W Departmental Flags ...... 979W Borders: Personal Records ...... 933W Insurance: Motor Vehicles ...... 979W Departmental Data Protection...... 934W Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander: Isle of Man .... 979W Departmental ICT ...... 935W Loans: Interest Rates ...... 979W Departmental Internet ...... 935W Private Finance Initiative: Waste Disposal ...... 980W Deportation: Private Sector ...... 935W Revenue and Customs: Closures ...... 980W Domestic Violence ...... 936W Tax Avoidance ...... 982W Educational Accreditation Bodies...... 936W Taxation: Investment Income...... 982W Entry Clearances: Tourists ...... 936W Taxation: Rebates...... 982W Extradition: USA...... 949W VAT: Sunscreens ...... 983W Immigration Controls ...... 951W Welfare Tax Credits: Telephone Services ...... 983W Immigration: Gurkhas ...... 951W Sexual Offences: Coventry ...... 951W WALES...... 962W UK Border Agency: Data Protection...... 952W Departmental Billing ...... 962W UK Border Agency: Liverpool...... 952W UK Border Agency: Pay ...... 952W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 972W Bus Services: Greater Manchester...... 972W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 977W Cold Weather Payments: Scotland ...... 973W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 977W Jobcentre Plus: Digital Technology ...... 973W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 978W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 974W Developing Countries: Trade ...... 978W Pension Credit...... 974W Pensioners...... 975W JUSTICE...... 952W Remploy...... 976W Community Orders ...... 952W State Retirement Pensions...... 977W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Thursday 11 June 2009

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CONTENTS

Thursday 11 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 915] [see index inside back page] Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 933] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Child Poverty [Col. 952] Bill presented, and read the First time

Carers [Col. 953] Topical debate

Social Mobility and the Professions [Col. 977] General debate

Giles Carlyle-Clarke [Col. 1025] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Policing in the 21st Century [Col. 303WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 43WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 933W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 9MC]