TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 38

through good times

T h ree pillars of American Vipassana ta l k to Tricycle about thirty ye a rs of teaching in the We st .

Left photo: , , and Joseph Goldstein, 2004. Right: Goldstein, Salzberg, and Kornfield, in the mid-seventies

O ver thirty ye a rs ago, Sharon Salzberg, Joseph tual guidance. Although there we re many who G o l dstein, and Jack Kornfield returned from South w a n t ed to pra c t i ce, institutions to support this rig- Asia to American shores bringing the ancient Budd h i st o rous mind-t raining p ra c t i ce, with its emphasis on meditation technique that was to become one of the residential re t reats, we re nonex i stent. So in 1976, m o st popular co n te m p l a t i ve pra c t i ces in the co u n- S a l z b e rg , Goldstein, and Kornfield founded the t r y. The first We stern students of some of the most Insight Medita t i o n Society (IMS), in Barre , re n owne d Thera vada te a c h e rs of their life t i m e — M a ssachusetts. A decade later, in 1986, Kornfield M u n i n d ra-ji, Dipa Ma, Ajaan Chah, and others — co - founded Spirit Rock Medi t ation C e n ter, in S a l z b e rg, Goldstein, and Kornfield separa te ly, but Wo o d a c re, California. IMS and Spirit Rock are now a l m o st simulta n e o u s ly, learned the medita t i ve the larg e st and most active Vipassana ce n te r s in p ra c t i ces of Vipassana, often tra n s l a ted as “insight North America. This past spring, T r i c y c l e e d i t o r m e d i tation” or co l lo q u i a l ly as “mindfulness pra c- James Shaheen tra ve led to Barre to ta ke adva n - tice.” Returning to America, they met in 1974 at the tage of the ra re opportunity to meet with all thre e f i rst session of Naropa Inst i t u te, ca tching the gre a t te a c h e r s together, and to ask them about the w a ve of inte re st of a generation hungry for spiri- p a s t, present, and future of American dharma.

3 8 | T R I C Y C L E W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 39

and bad

Did it ever occur to the three of you that you’d still be There were really two reasons I went to Asia: First, I’d read teaching after thirty-plus ye a rs ? books about Zen and studied at Dartmouth. In Joseph Goldste i n : I never thought about it, although 1967 I asked the Peace Corps to send me to a Buddhist there was nothing else I really could do. [laughs] country so I could go and find a monastery, and ended up in Thailand. I had a deep spiritual longing, and there What about you, Jack? seemed to be something magical about finding a temple Jack Kornfield: You know, it just happened, and actu- or a teacher. The other reason was that I was quite ally, that’s probably the best description of the entire u n h a p p y, and had experienced a lot of suffering in my life process. Maybe the most gracious way you could put it and in my family. I was just looking for some way to deal is to say it was karmic. with my own suffering. The notion of aspiration in some grand way wasn’t there. I think it’s the same for a lot of S h a ron, did you ever have any training in anything seekers: You look at your own life and say, “There’s some other than meditation pra c t i ce ? potential for living in a wiser and more conscious way, ” S h a ron Salzberg : I went to nursing school, although and you go looking for that. It wasn’t about enlighten- nothing came of it. I would echo Jack and Joseph. Peo- ment initially. ple say about our early teaching, “You must’ve been so brave,” or “You must’ve had such vision.” But it was What about you, Joseph? Was there this notion that more like, “Oh, let’s do this, let’s give it a try.” We took you could become enlighte n e d ? it one step at a time and it just happened. JG: Yes, for me there was. I was also in the Peace Corps in J G : I think we really caught a wave of interest in this Thailand from 1965–67. I later went back to Asia to look country, so it was largely a function of good timing. for a teacher because of an experience I’d had while I was in Thailand. A friend had been reading from a Ti b e t a n You all went to Asia when you we re very young. Did text on the empty nature of the mind, and just by listen- you have high hopes for enlightenment then? Do yo u ing I suddenly understood things in a very different way. h a ve the same aspirations now ? It was a powerful moment, and afterward, I wanted to J K : I don’t think I even knew what high aspirations were learn a way of developing or deepening that understand- at that time. It was much more of an organic process. ing. So, yes, I definitely had an aspiration for awakening.

W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 T R I C Y C L E | 3 9 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 40

S h a ron, what took you to Asia? m e n t except as freedom from suffering or freedom SS : You would call that faith. I was a student at the from defilement. State University of New York at Buffalo in 1970 and studied Asian philosophy. They had a study-abroad The Indian meditation master Dipa Ma [ 1 9 1 1 – 1 9 8 9 ; program. I asked to go to India to study Buddhist med- see T r i c y c l e , Spring 2004] was a teacher to all itation and they accepted that, so I went. I wouldn’t s a y t h ree of you, and I do get the impre ssion that she my aspiration had anything to do with enlightenment. i n s i sted that enlightenment was ce r ta i n ly poss i b le in I don’t know if I had a real concept of the word. It was this lifetime and that she spoke of it often. Do yo u more that I was drawn to the Buddhists’ very frank a void the to p i c ? acknowledgment of the suffering in life, which I had JG: No, not at all. First, within the Vipassana tradition certainly experienced some share of. Hearing it spoken of Buddhism there are euphemisms for enlightenment. about so openly was a tremendous freedom in itself. I A phrase we heard a lot was “finishing the course,” liked the idea that Buddhism wasn’t just for special or which means finishing the course of all the stages of talented people who could turn their minds around; insight, leading to different stages of awakening or the tools really existed for anybody, including me. enlightenment. But why do we hesitate to discuss it? T h a t ’s really what inspired me to go. I don’t even I t ’s because Western psychology is different from know that my early teachers spoke about e n l i g h t e n- A s i a ’s. Here, self-judgment, self-doubt, and feelings of

One-on-one with Joseph Goldstein

What do you think you would have done if you hadn’t that quality of looking at b e come a dharma te a c h e r ? I probably would have w h a t ’s going on: What is gone to graduate school in history or to law school. I had this? What’s the hook in a vague interest in law as an undergraduate, but it really this? It’s that sort of wasn’t a serious consideration. investigation that best describes how my mind Why a lawyer? I really enjoyed a class in constitutional works, particularly in law as an undergraduate. I like to dissect issues, my situations of suffering. mind just works that way. I guess you could say I turned that analytical bent inward, toward my own Do you ever doubt the co u rse yo u ’ ve ta ke n ? No, never. mind. I like to see distinctions. It helps to create a clar- It’s been such an amazing unfolding, and there’s noth- ity of understanding. ing I’d rather be doing, except for maybe being on retreat myself. Doubt was never my hindrance. Can you give me an ex a m p le? One of the things I talk about on retreat is seeing the difference between guilt What hindra n ces most plagued you then? Early on it and remorse. This theme developed when I was caught was restlessness. And desire. Those two. in a mind state and I didn’t quite understand what was going on. I was feeling guilt, and I could see that it was H ow have they changed? They’ve become quieter. The just an ego trip. Guilt is a lot about self, it’s a lot about restlessness, for instance, has become less obvious, less “I”: “I’m so bad.” Feeling remorse is about taking physical. Now it’s watching the movements of the mind responsibility, and includes elements of wisdom, of for- as an expression of restlessness rather than that feeling of giveness. It’s not a self-centered response, like guilt. wanting to jump out of my skin. It’s a more subtle ver- When I could unpack that, it opened things up for me; sion of restlessness. it was very freeing. What about desire ? It was just, you know, the usual. When you did that, did you speak with anyone about it, The garden-variety desire we all know. It, too, has did you re ce i ve guidance ? No, I was on self retreat. It’s mostly become quieter, more subtle.

4 0 | T R I C Y C L E W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 41

One-on-one with Jack Kornfield

Has it been a sacrifice to teach? Not at all. Te a c h i n g much difficulty that he kept getting fired, or he the dharma has been a privilege. Traveling, estab- would quit. There was often little money. We l i s hing IMS, Spirit Rock—it feels like my life has moved every year or so. I attended fourteen differ- been carried by a stream of dharma. The first ten years ent schools. So when I heard about the Buddhist on the road, I think we made an average of three or teachings on suffering and the end of suffering, cer- four thousand dollars a year, and we slept on living tainly that was interesting. room floors and couches at friends’ houses, like dharma bums. But somehow the dharma brought us Any thoughts about where yo u ’ re headed now ? I ’ m IMS, with its one hundred rooms and eighty acres. It turning sixty soon, and sometimes I think about brought us land from the Nature Conservancy for w h a t ’s next. But my teacher Ajaan Chah used to be Spirit Rock. T h e r e ’s a wonderful sense of being held fond of using the phrase mai neh, which means “it’s by the dharma. Te a c h i n g ’s the best job you could have, uncertain.” He taught the wisdom of uncertainty. watching the joy of people discovering the dharma, He’d just laugh and say, “Mai neh.” I have no idea watching them over the course of a ten-day retreat what will happen. It all just seems to happen by struggle with their bodies and minds, shedding la y e r s itself; the growth of our community, the growth of of tension and fear, discovering freedom, and looking the dharma here. We’re all just a part of an unfoldi n g , younger along the way. we’re not the doers of it. In that way I see myself as responding, not creating, of being in the stream. Looking younger? Yes, now that’s a good adver- There are things I love—the growing completion of t i s em e n t — i t ’s an anti-aging practice! People are Spirit Rock, mentoring young teachers, supporting g l o wing after retreats. Teaching is where I deepen d i v e r s i t y, and, in particular, watching the connection my own spiritual life. It keeps me honest. When I of the different traditions as they meet each other in speak about the dharma I immediately sense any this country. I’d like distance between my life and the beauty of the someday to see some- teaching. It reawakens me to what’s possible, to lib- thing like Nalanda eration from suffering here and now. University take off here. The best teachers and You mention that suffe r i n g — p a r t i c u l a r ly fa m i ly diffi- practitioners from all c u l t i e s — b rought you to the dharma. Was your child- traditions getting hood difficult? Yes. My father was a violent and together in one place. paranoid man. He beat my mother, and mistreated Naropa, of course, has his children in terrible ways. When my father been seminal, and I pulled up to the house after a day of work, we have been discussing wouldn’t know whether he’d be Dr. Jekyll or Mr. that sort of future with Hyde. He was a brilliant scientist, but he had so others. We’ll see.

unworthiness are common psychological patterns. Dipa Ma did. Because they were holding the fruit of Their prevalence was very surprising to me when I realization, they were holding to a very high standard. came back to America and started teaching. In Asia, when people hear “finish a course,” they don’t internal- H a ve we lowe red our sta n d a rds? ize it; they don’t say, as they may here, “Oh, I’m a bad J G : Well, I wonder whether we Western teachers lose yogi because I haven’t gotten there yet.” In this coun- something by not pushing the envelope. I’ve thought t r y, that’s a very strong tendency. We don’t talk about about this a lot in teaching: Do we really hold to the effort in the way, for example, that our teacher Sayadaw highest standard in our effort to accommodate the very U Pandita [Burmese meditation master] did, or that real psychological issues that beset Westerners? It’s a bit

W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 T R I C Y C L E | 4 1 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 42

One-on-one with Sharon Salzberg

Do you have any re g re t s ? Sometimes I feel the lack of scholarship in my teaching and think I should do something about it (despite several failed attempts to learn Pali), and I know I need to practice more. Teaching has taken up a lot of my time in the last thirty years, and so has working with the responsi- bilities of an organization. But I wouldn’t call having spent so much time teaching or in administration a deep regret, since I recognize how privileged I am to meet the people I do when they come to learn meditation. I’m grateful to be a part of their process spending more time in New York City when I was and the process of establishing dharma in the West. writing my last book, Faith: Trusting Your Own The Insight Meditation Society has grown from our Deepest Experience. Even though you wouldn’t ordi- fly-by-night operation (“Do you think there’s any narily imagine that leaving the peaceful country- way we’ll still be here next year?” was a frequent side of Barre for the more energized and intense question) to something a lot more established, with scene of New York would make sense as a choice of a board and staff that really run it. And I know writing venue, it worked well for me. And then I anything is possible, so my life will continue to found that I had created an entire life in New York take different turns. Probably my strongest City: deep friendships, inspiring work, creative regret is not spending nearly enough time with pursuits. In terms of teaching, I have found myself my own teachers, whom I loved a lot, while they particularly drawn to offering classes and daylong were still alive. retreats, rather than focusing on longer, residential retreats as I previously had done. It has been fun for Yo u ’ ve been spending a lot of your time in New Yo r k me to experiment with different forms in this way. City and le ss time in Barre. Does this indica te a I love teaching in Barre as well, and appreciate the change of heart or a change in dire c t i o n ? I started power of the intensive retreat experience.

of a dilemma. I’ve asked myself that a lot over all these they’ve never had before, but rather stabilizing an years of teaching. insight they’ve already attained. JK: We do talk about enlightenment, but not as much as our teachers did. It’s really important to do it. Even H ow would you say your teaching st y les differ fro m though it can play into the ambitions and judgments of those of your own te a c h e rs ? students, it still gives people a sense of possibility, and SS: The idioms have changed, the metaphors, imagery, people do experience enlightenment on our retreats. and what is emphasized have changed. We spend a lot of SS : Let me just add two things. First, we use the term time assuring people that they are capable of growth “stream entry” a lot. It is the moment on the path to and change. The techniques of meditation in Asia are awakening from which there’s no turning back. embedded in a whole set of cultural values of faith and Putting it this way can help people understand enlight- generosity and a lifelong relationship to a teacher. It’s enment without seeing it so much as a consumer item, not about just reading a book, or hearing a tape and s o m e t h i n g they can “get.” Second, many students may adopting a mental exercise—that’s not what meditation already have tremendous insight into selflessness or is. It’s part of a much larger social context, and we don’t impermanence, but there’s something unstable about have that context here. I don’t think that our societal their understanding. We try to guide students toward institutions have grown to a point where they can sup- an opening to enlightenment so deep that they cannot port internal exploration in a deep way. IMS and Spirit turn back. So it’s not so much getting something Rock are meant to provide that missing social and insti-

4 2 | T R I C Y C L E W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 43

tutional context for the practices we learned. So we’ll see H ow so? what happens, how it really translates here. J K : We received teachings from a number of schools J K : I believe that if you come to IMS or Spirit Rock to within our own tradition, and their do a two- or three-month course, the instructions and approaches were different and included both an fundamental guidance that you would receive would emphasis on emptiness and attention to psychological not be very different from what you would get at a issues. On retreat with [Burmese retreat center in Southeast Asia. And that’s a wonderful meditation master] I would be told simply to thing. There’s something so straightforward and essen- acknowledge something and see the emptiness of it, of tial about the practices of attention and mindfulness, of all phenomena arising and passing away. That leads to lovingkindness and compassion, and how one works a deeper physical sense of emptiness. Ajaan Chah [Thai with body and heart and mind—they’re really universal. forest monk], a different kind of teacher, would sit in J G : One of the big changes is the degree to which, in his monastery, and everyone from villagers to govern- teaching, we address the psychological and emotional ment officials would come to visit him. His main issues of students. When we first came back [from Asia], approach to dharma was not to ask about people’s for- my approach was very much “It’s all empty, and you mal meditation practice, but to ask, “Are you suffer- d o n ’t really need to go into it.” Over the years I’ve seen ing? And what kind of suffering do you bring?” It that while that approach might work for some, it’s not might have been that your house burned down, or that always the best response. Sometimes people do need to you were in the middle of a divorce, or that you were address very specifically their psychological and emo- feeling great guilt from something you’ve done in your tional issues. I think this is one of the contributions the past. Or it might have been that you felt trapped in a West has made to the teaching of dharma. meaningless life. Ajaan Chah would listen to it all. He But there is also a danger that we’ll lose something if would work with that person to uncover the attach- we overemphasize these aspects and simply stay lost in ments that were causing that suffering. Through our personal stories. I’m concerned that teaching will teaching meditation and awareness, he’d show them become more like therapy. The promise that the Buddha how to release that suffering. He made no distinction held out was far greater than anything Freud suggested between whether it was a problem of an obsessive was possible. The Buddha offered total liberation from thought about enlightenment or a problem in a suffering; he didn’t settle for what we consider “normal” divorce or a problem that had happened with one’s par- or “well-adjusted”; those were his starting points. So I ents or a problem that was happening because you were

We try to guide students toward an opening to enlightenment so deep that they cannot turn back.

guess we’re all trying, in our own way, to get the bal- sitting and energy and concentration weren’t in bal- ance right. ance. He saw them all as different forms of clinging. JK: I disagree with the way Joseph articulates things; T h a t ’s a whole different way of looking at it. maybe I disagree with the way he sees them. [all laugh] What makes IMS and Spirit Rock unique, though, is I sense a false dichotomy between what Joseph refers to that we don’t all agree and yet we work together in the as psychological issues on the one hand and emptiness same place. We use different language, and our on the other. approaches differ. Yet we all (continued on page 104)

W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 T R I C Y C L E | 4 3 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 104

THROUGH GOOD TIMES AND BAD

(continued from page 43) agree on the most fundamental m u n i t y, although we are teachers, we are still also stu- principles quite firmly—suffering and freedom from dents. This keeps our own dharma development open- it. I don’t know of any place in the world like it. The ing and is a good message to those students who are coming together of the different strands of the dharma behind us. is the We s t ’s unique contribution to Buddhism. JG: Over the thirty years of our teaching, I think we But I encourage people who are really dedicated and got more tolerant of each other [all laugh]—not just serious in their dharma practice and training to go the three of us but in the bigger dharma scene. There spend a period of time in Asia, in Thailand or Burma have been differences among us. In the last ten or fif- or another one of the Buddhist countries. There’s teen years we’ve had a growing appreciation for what something about being immersed in the consciousness each of us does. All together, it kind of creates the of a Buddhist culture that’s inspiring. That said, I jewel of the dharma. That’s been great. think if someone comes on a long retreat at IMS or Spirit Rock, they get as good a training as they’re What have the three of you found rew a rding likely to get anywhere else—and without the diarrhea! over the last thirty-plus ye a rs of teaching, and JG: Listening to all of this reminds me of something what sorts of disappointments or co n cerns do that we’ve commented on over many years: The three you have ? of us, and whoever else the team might be, actually JG: There is an amazing kind of joy in dealing with peo- make one teacher. We balance each other and bring ple as they connect with the dharma as they deepen their different perspectives, which has been helpful. practice. It is tremendously inspiring for our own prac- JK: One of the great things about team teaching or hav- tice and just for what’s happening in the culture. The ing a collective community is that we really learn from biggest challenge has been figuring out the org a n i z a- one another. Another beautiful thing is that in our com- tional stuff. There are a lot of ups and downs. We’re still

1 0 4 | T R I C Y C L E W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 TRI.W04;038-043.ims_inter 8/14/06 12:29 PM Page 105

THROUGH GOOD TIMES AND BAD

very much in the process of figuring out how best to gov- been seeing Sayadaw U Pandita at IMS for two ern these institutions, which have grown far bigger than months and had become incredibly calm. A friend of we’d ever imagined. Organizational support is essential mine was also sitting the retreat and had brought a in carrying out our mission, and when it hasn’t func- refrigerator so that she could stock it with her own tioned well, it’s been a problem. But we’re fortunate to food. She put it in a hallway closet. One day, instead have such problems! of going out to the dining room for lunch, I sat in my J K : In terms of the rewards, I remember meeting this man room and had a hard-boiled egg. I was mindfully in the airport in Florida a couple of years ago. He comes up e a t i n g it when the door flew open and there stood to me and says, “Is that you, Jack?”—this happens from Jack, looking wild. “I’m looking for a sound,” he time to time now. “Yes,” I answered. “Oh, I sat the three- said. I thought he’d gone insane. So I asked, “What month course in 1978. I’m so happy to see you. I haven’t kind of sound, Jack?” “Well, it goes on and off, and been sitting much, but last year I had a heart attack, and on and off, like some kind of motor.” And I realized it when I was being wheeled into surg e r y, what mattered to was the refrigerator, so I said, “Come with me, I’ll me was that I had sat. What mattered in that moment was take you to the sound.” So we went to the closet that I could come back to my body and my breath and the where the refrigerator was and wrapped it in sleeping fear: I could find a place to be present for it. That was there bags. No more sound! for me when I was thinking that I was about to die.” He was very grateful for that. That’s gratifying. Are you always so relaxed around each other? SS: Well, there have been good times and bad. B u t Sharon? maybe we’re more relaxed nowadays because we have SS : I have few regrets and am grateful for the past more confidence that the dharma will actually survive we’ve shared. I was just thinking of a Jack story. I ’ d us. [all laugh] ▼

W I N T E R 2 0 0 4 T R I C Y C L E | 1 0 5