Wednesday Volume 564 12 June 2013 No. 16

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 12 June 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 321 12 JUNE 2013 322

and Customs, we are investing to ensure that developing House of Commons countries have the tax expertise they need to collect the taxes that are due. Wednesday 12 June 2013 Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I back the call The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock from my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for country-by-country reporting by all multinational companies. Can the Secretary of PRAYERS State guarantee that no money from DFID goes to any organisation or company that is not fully tax transparent? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Justine Greening: We are very clear that we want companies to behave responsibly across the board, including Oral Answers to Questions on tax, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is such due diligence. We cannot simply ignore those problems, and if we are to shape private sector investment in the developing world so that it can help drive INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT development, as I think we should, we will have to engage with the private sector more in the future than The Secretary of State was asked— we have in the past.

Tax Avoidance Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): The Secretary of State will know that the OECD has 1. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): been charged with coming up with a scheme to tackle What proposals her Department has to tackle tax base erosion and profit shifting and to consider corporate avoidance by multinational companies operating in taxation. Last week in a meeting with the organisation developing countries. [159145] it confirmed to me that it is working to a timetable of 2. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): What just two years. Does she agree with that timetable, or steps she is taking to help developing countries improve does she agree with me that it is an over optimistic timetable for trying to get a multilateral convention to their tax systems. [159146] replace 3,000 tax treaties? The Secretary of State for International Development (Justine Greening): The UK Government are committed Justine Greening: My right hon. Friend is right that to ensuring that developing countries have the ability to the timetable is ambitious and that is why we need to collect the tax that they are owed. The UK is using our put the political momentum behind it that the G8 G8 presidency to promote tax transparency, tackle tax meeting can bring. The work that the OECD is doing avoidance and ensure tax compliance. has been commissioned by the G20 and it shows that if we are to reach a sustainable solution, leading economies Katy Clark: The Secretary of State will be aware that and world leaders must come together. That is precisely developing countries lose more than £160 billion each why we have put the subject on our G8 agenda. year through tax avoidance, more than one and a half times what they receive in aid. What is she doing to Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): The Prime Minister ensure that we get country-by-country reporting so that and the Secretary of State have said that the main we see how much those multinationals are taking from objective of this weekend’s summit on tax and transparency developing countries? and next week’s G8 meeting is for G8 countries to put their houses in order. That would strengthen the moral Justine Greening: Addressing tax avoidance and authority of the G8 and send a strong message to the encouraging tax compliance will be one of the key rest of the world that the time has come to get serious elements of the G8 agenda, and transparency sits alongside about tax dodging. Will the Secretary of State ask the that. We will look at how we can obtain more transparency, Chancellor today to bolster the Prime Minister’s moral including sectoral transparency through measures such authority and undertake an urgent review of the changes as the extractive industries transparency initiative. All he made to the UK’s controlled foreign company rules, those measures together have the potential to ensure which are estimated to have cost developing countries that we can help developing countries to collect the tax £4 billion in lost tax revenue? they are owed. Dr Thérèse Coffey: Does my right hon. Friend agree Justine Greening: I should have thought that the hon. that developing countries will be able to end their Gentleman would have asked me about the success of dependence on aid only if they can raise enough revenues the G8 event on nutrition we held last Saturday, which through the tax system? saw huge progress on providing funding for that issue. Let me answer the question he has asked, however. I Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. reassure him that we are taking a structured approach If we are to have sustainable development and developing to the discussions at the G8. We are looking at addressing countries are to have the tax revenues to fund and invest tax avoidance—in other words, dealing with the problem. in their own public services, we need a thriving economy We are looking at developing better approaches to tax that creates those revenues. That is why economic evasion—in other words, once the problems happen we development is such a key part of what my Department need to ensure that we can sort them out. We are also is now focusing on. Along with Her Majesty’s Revenue looking at how we can ensure that developing countries, 323 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 324 once they have made progress, are in a position to Justine Greening: I am sure we will be raising those collect tax. Our Government has put the question on issues at the G8, as I did when I was at the UN a couple the agenda and I think the hon. Gentleman should of weeks ago. It is simply unacceptable that the Syrian congratulate us on that. Government continue to refuse to allow humanitarian deliveries across the border from Turkey, and we need Mr Lewis: I do not know about tax dodging but the all sides in this conflict to agree to give unfettered access Secretary of State is getting a reputation for question to humanitarian agencies and to do that free from dodging—we will try this one, Mr Speaker. The violence. Government have identified the public registration of beneficial company owners as one of their top priorities Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) for the G8. There can be no excuse for this basic (Con): The number of refugees coming across the border information about company directors being shrouded from Syria into Turkey is way beyond Turkey’s ability to in secrecy. Does that remain the Government’s priority? provide for them. Has my right hon. Friend had any Will she confirm that if they are unable to secure discussions with her counterparts in Turkey, the European agreement, the UK will take unilateral steps on the Union or the wider international community on how issue of public registration? these refugees might be catered for?

Justine Greening: We have made beneficial ownership Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right to recognise one of the key elements of our G8 agenda, and it is the impact that refugees are having on several right to do so. I do not recall the hon. Gentleman’s countries in the region. Some 370,000-plus refugees Government particularly pushing on the issue during have arrived in Turkey, and we have spoken with the their 13 years in office. I can assure him that the best Turkish Government about what we can do to provide way to make a difference for developing countries is to support. They have played a leading role in providing get international agreement. That is what they want and humanitarian support to those refugees, and that should that is why we are trying to get it. be acknowledged, too.

Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): In the light of the Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Select Committee on International Development’s recent (Lab): In addition to the information that the right hon. report, and following the election, will the Secretary of Lady has just given the House, is she aware that World State engage with the Government of Pakistan to ensure Vision estimates that 1.5 million people are displaced? that Ministers, MPs and the leaders of the community Does she agree that in the event of any removal of arms there pay their fair share of taxes to match the contribution embargoes, there will be no less emphasis on the crucial that British development aid is making to Pakistan? need for humanitarian aid?

Justine Greening: We have a question on the Order Justine Greening: I think I can absolutely reassure the Paper later about Pakistan, Mr Speaker. I have already right hon. Gentleman on that point. My Department is spoken with Ministers in the Pakistani Government, looking at what needs to happen in not only the immediate and the Committee’s report was right to highlight this time frame, but the far longer term. We know that more issue. than half the hospitals in Syria have been damaged, and that the water and sanitation systems are essentially no longer working. There needs to be not Syria only a short-term plan to examine humanitarian needs in all circumstances—he is right about that—but a 4. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): longer-term plan to examine what Syria’s needs will be What recent assessment she has made of the afterwards. humanitarian situation in Syria. [159148] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): With the The Secretary of State for International Development Council for European Palestinian Relations, I recently (Justine Greening): The humanitarian situation in Syria visited Palestinian refugees in Lebanon who had fled has now reached catastrophic proportions. More than from Syria. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that the 80,000 people have been killed—that is nearly 1,000 a United Nations Relief and Works Agency is doing all month—6.8 million are in need, including at least that it can to help those people, who are living in 4.25 million internally displaced persons, half of whom miserable conditions? are children, and a further 1.6 million refugees are in the region, of whom 75% are women and children. UK Justine Greening: I thank my hon. Friend for that support is providing food, health care, water and shelter question, because that important aspect of the crisis is for refugees, both inside and outside Syria. often not recognised. We have provided £5 million to UNRWAparticularly to support its work with Palestinian John Robertson: I thank the Secretary of State for her refugees. That will support more than 350,000 Palestinian answer, and I am pleased to see that she is well up with refugees in Syria, and will go on food parcels and other what is happening. She will also be well up with what is relief items. being done by the UN commission of inquiry, which mentioned the killing of 13 children because of lack of Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I food and medication. Will she confirm that the Government wish to declare an interest: I have just returned from a will press for an agreement at the G8 summit on improving visit to Lebanon, courtesy of World Vision, on which I humanitarian access for the estimated 4 million people witnessed at first hand the impact of the heavy influx of who need it in Syria today? Syrian refugees on that country. The number of refugees 325 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 326 in Lebanon has reached half a million and is set to hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and indeed all of us reach 1 million by Christmas. Last week, the UN appealed in the Department for International Development, ensure for £3.2 billion to deal with the humanitarian emergency. that the money that we spend on behalf of taxpayers Will the Secretary of State tell the House how much the goes to people in need, and not into the pockets of UK Government will contribute to this appeal? anyone who might be corrupt.

Justine Greening: I thank the hon. Lady for that Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): May question. We are looking now at what we can do to I invite the Minister and the Secretary of State to look continue playing a leading role in providing humanitarian at the Ministry of Defence’s stabilisation activities, such support, but I think that all Members of the House as mine clearance, police training in Afghanistan, and would agree that we need to put pressure on other the replacement of the Kajaki dam turbine? Those countries in the region, and the international community activities are not claimed as going towards the ODA more broadly, to step up to the plate and provide target of 0.7%; if they were, I believe that we would be support, and we need to make sure that they fulfil exceeding it. commitments that they have already made. Mr Duncan: One of the great achievements of this Official Development Assistance Government is the great co-ordination between the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and DFID, 5. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) under the auspices of the National Security Council. (Lab/Co-op): When the Government plan to bring When it comes to spending, we work very closely with forward legislative proposals to enshrine in law their those two Departments, but we must stick within the commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income OECD rules that govern the definition of official on official development assistance. [159149] development assistance.

The Minister of State, Department for International Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): How much of that Development (Mr Alan Duncan): This Government will percentage will be made available to the people of be the first in the G8 to reach 0.7%, and we are doing so Yemen? Only yesterday, Jamal Benomar, the UN special this year. representative, said that 1 million children were dying from malnutrition there. How can we save those children? Stephen Doughty: The Minister wants us to believe the Government’s 0.7% aid promise, but first we find no Bill in the Queen’s Speech, and secondly we see a Mr Duncan: Our focus on Yemen is acute, and I take massive underspend in the Department in the last few charge of that personally. The right hon. Gentleman is months of last year. Who made the decisions to omit absolutely right. Indeed, one of the comments at the the Bill and to underspend? Was it the Secretary of nutrition event at the weekend, attended by Ministers State, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, or the Prime from Yemen, was that more than half of their children Minister? under five are stunted. We have to focus on that need, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House Mr Duncan: Very nice try, but there is not a massive that through our programmes in Yemen, that is exactly underspend. Previous mentions in the Queen’s Speech what we are doing. were about the objective of meeting the target, and if the hon. Gentleman wants the proof to be in the Spending Priorities pudding, that is exactly what we are doing. 6. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What her Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Would the Department’s spending priorities are for 2012-13. excellent Minister agree with me that we should not set [159150] targets for overseas aid? We should give what is required.

Mr Duncan: We are doing both, because as the United The Secretary of State for International Development Nations’ objective of 0.7% established, the continuity (Justine Greening): In 2012-13, the Department focused that comes from countries meeting it ensures that aid is its investment on poverty reduction through improving delivered in the best possible way, and that is why the the lives of girls and women, boosting economic objective is so important for the poorest people in the development and creating jobs, building open societies world, whom we are all trying to help. and institutions, combating climate change, responding to humanitarian emergencies, and building peaceful states and societies. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Now that we are the first of the G8 nations to reach 0.7%, perhaps the Prime Minister will make that declaration Alun Cairns: The Government have rightly prioritised in the magnificent surroundings of County Fermanagh money for some of the most deprived people around next week. When he has done that, will he ensure that the globe, but can my right hon. Friend reassure me that we target that aid, that it is free from corruption, that the Government will also prioritise the ungoverned people can see that there is a point behind the aid, and states in the conflict-affected areas around the world? that it goes to those most in need? Justine Greening: I can; 30% of our bilateral aid by Mr Duncan: I am confident that not only would the 2014-15 will be invested in precisely those states. When Prime Minister enjoy making such a commitment, but the multilateral investment is added, that comes to could do so truthfully and accurately, because my right about half the Department’s budget. 327 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 328

Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Kingdom Government. What steps have the Government Co-op): As the Secretary of State will be aware, the taken to address that issue directly with the Pakistani Nutrition for Growth event in London last weekend Government to ensure that Christian groups get the aid highlighted the importance of investing in nutrition. that they should get? The Secretary of State will also know that in the countries with which DFID has a bilateral relationship, only Justine Greening: We intend to make sure that our aid about half have an investment in nutrition programme. reaches all the people who need it, irrespective of ethnic Will the Department be expanding its commitment to background or anything else. We raised all such issues invest in nutrition in developing countries? with the Pakistani Government in the past and will continue to do so with the new Government, now that Justine Greening: We made our own commitments, they are in place. I hope I can do that when I visit alongside those of many other countries, last Saturday. Pakistan in the coming weeks. In total that brought in $4.1 billion of investment between now and 2020, and we will be looking to work with developing countries to develop nutrition plans West Bank where there are none, but interestingly, last Saturday we saw many countries with existing plans in which they 8. Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): What are already investing. research her Department has undertaken into the humanitarian effects of the occupation of the west Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): In the year bank. [159152] when we will achieve the historic 0.7% target, does the Secretary of State agree that her Department can get The Minister of State, Department for International more bang for its development bucks by also championing Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We are deeply concerned development right across Government—for instance, by the impact of the occupation on the lives of Palestinians with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, in the west bank. DFID assesses this constantly. Reports on tackling the issue of modern-day slavery in the from the UN and others clearly document poverty, business supply chain? displacement, constrained growth and the demolition Justine Greening: We need to make sure that all this year alone of 247 Palestinian structures. Departments are pulling in the same direction on this agenda, as I am trying to do. The hon. Gentleman is Mr Ward: Those who have been to the west bank and right. Modern-day slavery is a disgrace and my Department to Gaza will be frustrated constantly to see international will look at what role we can play in relation to human aid used to pay for buildings which are promptly knocked trafficking. down by the Israeli regime. Is the Minister aware that according to figures in the United Nations “Humanitarian Pakistan Monitor” monthly report for April, there was a 30% rise in the number of Palestinians displaced by house 7. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): demolitions, with a total of 46 structures demolished by What recent contact she has had with the Pakistani the Israeli army, which included five paid for by international Government about UK aid. [159151] donors?

The Secretary of State for International Development Mr Speaker: We are grateful to the hon. Member, but (Justine Greening): Following Pakistan’s historic elections we need to have time for the answer. on 11 May, I have spoken with incoming Government Ministers about their priorities, as have my officials. The federal and provincial governments made clear Mr Duncan: The Government share the hon. Gentleman’s manifesto commitments to reform and now have a clear concerns about the nature and scale of the demolitions. democratic mandate. The people of Pakistan have put I am pleased to say, however, that we have contributed their faith in democracy and they now want to see to the construction of a number of schools in Gaza, Governments delivering on those promises. where we hope children will be educated without their premises ever being demolished. Andrew Selous: Tax collection is very weak in Pakistan, with apparently 70% of its MPs not even filing a tax Topical Questions return. Given that Pakistan promised back in 2008 to close its tax loopholes as a condition of an International T1. [159160] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): If she Monetary Fund loan, why should we believe Pakistan will make a statement on her departmental on this occasion that it will be better at collecting the responsibilities. taxes due to it? Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right to raise the The Secretary of State for International Development issue, as the International Development Committee (Justine Greening): Since the last International Development did. The incoming Government have a clear-cut manifesto questions, I have attended the high-level panel meeting commitment to increase the proportion of GDP from in New York, met the CBI to discuss how DFID can tax collected. We support that, and we hope and expect work with business on development and attended the that they will get on with it. G8 social impact forum last Thursday. You,Mr Speaker, will recall the parliamentary reception we held last Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There have been weekend in advance of the G8 Nutrition for Growth reports from Pakistan of Christian groups who say they event, where we secured commitments of up to £2.7 billion have not had access to the aid coming from the United to tackle under-nutrition between now and 2020. 329 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 330

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy Palestinians are treated by the Israelis, for example private conversations taking place. The Secretary of having no water for weeks on end. What can the State and Members are addressing extremely important Government do to help those Palestinians who are matters, and they should be discussed in an air of suffering such pain? respect and consideration. The Minister of State, Department for International Chris Evans: Last year the Secretary of State said that Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We put as much pressure her top priority was women and girls. What steps is she and argument as we can to improve the condition of taking to tackle violence against women and girls, especially Palestinians in Area C, and we very much hope that in the Democratic Republic of Congo? such issues will be addressed in the peace process, which we wish every success, as it continues over the next few Justine Greening: My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary weeks. of State visited that region comparatively recently. We are looking at how we can scale up our work on T4. [159163] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) tackling violence against women and girls. The hon. (Con): What discussions have been had with the Gentleman will be aware that we are also working hand Government of Pakistan to tackle the issues of in hand with the Foreign Office on tackling violence population growth, lack of family planning and high against women and girls in conflict. maternity deaths?

T2. [159161] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): In Justine Greening: This Government have focused on recognition of her achievement in securing the 0.7% of family planning; indeed, we hosted a conference on it gross domestic product target, will the Secretary of last year. As regards Pakistan, we have a successful State indicate just how many of her investments are programme in relation to health workers. Of course, the leading to improved trade opportunities for the United ultimate way to tackle the issues that my hon. Friend Kingdom? talks about is through education. If girls stay in school longer, they get married later and have fewer children Justine Greening: We invest around £1 billion in and, indeed, healthier children. wealth-creating projects, but I would like us to do more in the area of economic development. We need only Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and look at the increase in our exports to China to see how Lesmahagow) (Lab): On a recent delegation to the west other countries developing their economies will ultimately bank, we met President Abbas, who confirmed that the benefit us, too. Palestinian Authority pays the families of convicted criminals a salary dependent on the length of time they T9. [159168] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) spend in prison. Since DFID provides direct budget (Lab): Following the excellent WaterAid campaign on support which is indivisible from the Palestinian Authority’s world water day earlier this year, what progress has the funds, will the Minister explain and justify how British Secretary of State made on ensuring that access to taxpayers’ money can be spent on paying criminals? clean water and sanitation remains a central part of the post-2015 development goals? Mr Duncan: We have dealt with this issue on many occasions in written and oral parliamentary questions. I Justine Greening: The hon. Lady will have been as can assure the hon. Gentleman that British funding is pleased as I was to see that sanitation and water feature ring-fenced and does not in any way go to purposes of strongly in the high-level panel’s report passed to the that sort. UN Secretary-General a couple of weeks ago. It is really important that we keep that proposed target, T5. [159164] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): which is precisely what the Government will be pressing Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be for. possible to link our large aid presence in the British embassy in Jakarta more effectively with our trade T3. [159162] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): presence in order to promote new energy solutions like May I commend the Secretary of State and the Prime the first biodiesel plant in the country from Minister for last Saturday’s Nutrition for Growth Gloucestershire’s Green Fuels? summit, which showed that improving nutrition is not only about state aid, but about bringing the private Justine Greening: That sounds like a very sensible sector and philanthropists together to solve the thought. We work closely with UK Trade & Investment problem of over 1 billion people going hungry? in Whitehall, and I would like that to happen more on the ground in developing countries such as Indonesia. Justine Greening: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, because it shows that if we are to make a real difference, we need ultimately to see Governments PRIME MINISTER working in partnership with business and encouraging responsible investment. If we can work together and The Prime Minister was asked— bring in the best science, we will have a real chance of tackling under-nutrition. Engagements

T10. [159169] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): A Q1. [159125] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): member of my staff, Lee Butcher, recently visited If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday Palestine. He was shocked and stunned to see how 12 June. 331 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 332

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning have recognised that the Syrian national opposition are I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. legitimate spokespeople for the Syrian people, it is In addition to my duties in this House I shall have important that we help them, give them technical assistance, further such meetings later today. give them training, and give them advice and assistance. We are doing all those things, and I think, yes, that that Alex Cunningham: Because of this Government’s does help to tip the balance to make sure that President incompetent management of the NHS, 256,000 patients Assad can see that he cannot win this by military means were forced to wait in the back of ambulances because alone and that negotiations should take place for a accident and emergency departments could not admit transitional Government. them. Why does the Prime Minister think that the best way to deal with this is to fine hospitals £90 million for Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that his Government’s failure? answer, but my question was specifically on the lifting of the arms embargo and the supply of weapons to the The Prime Minister: This Government are putting Syrian rebels. £12.7 billion extra into the NHS—money that would be Last week, the Prime Minister also told the House cut by Labour. Because of that extra money and because that of the reforms, waiting times for in-patients and out-patients are both down, hospital-acquired infections are right “there are clear safeguards to ensure that any such equipment would be supplied only for the protection of civilians”.—[Official down, and mixed-sex wards have almost been abolished Report, 3 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 1234.] in our NHS. That is a record we can be proud of. Will he tell us what those safeguards are and how in Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Syria they would be enforced? Surely the shadow Chancellor is right when he says that the Labour party will look ridiculous if it refuses to give The Prime Minister: First, let me say again that the the people a say on our future in Europe. Can my right point about lifting the arms embargo, which applied hon. Friend confirm the Conservative party’s commitment originally to both the regime and the official Syrian to renegotiation and a referendum and can he explain opposition, is to send a very clear message about our why a Labour leader so weak that he can resist the intentions and our views to President Assad, but we shadow Chancellor on nothing else refuses to do what have not made a decision to supply the Syrian opposition the shadow Chancellor says on the one occasion that he with weapons. As I have said, we are giving them is right? assistance, advice and technical help. To answer the right hon. Gentleman’s second question, The Prime Minister: On behalf of the whole House, we have systems in place—of course we do—to make may I welcome my hon. Friend back to the House of sure that that sort of non-lethal equipment, such as Commons? It is good to see him making such a strong transport, does not get into the wrong hands. recovery and being in such strong voice as well. He makes a very important point. On this side of the Edward Miliband: Two things: first, I think we all House, within this party, we are committed to renegotiation support the idea that we should focus on the peace and an in/out referendum before the end of 2017, but conference, Geneva II, and on making it happen, but there has been a staggering silence from Labour Members. the problem is that the Government have put their Apparently half the shadow Cabinet support a referendum energy into the lifting of the arms embargo, not the and the other half do not. Well, they will have their peace conference. chance on 5 July—they can turn up and vote for a Secondly, I quoted the Prime Minister’s words not referendum in the United Kingdom. about non-lethal equipment, but about the supply of lethal equipment. He gave an assurance to this House Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): On Syria, that, in the circumstances of supplying lethal equipment, the Prime Minister has our support to use the G8 in the there would be end-use safeguards. My question was coming week to push all members to provide humanitarian what those safeguards would be, but I did not hear an assistance to alleviate the terrible crisis that is happening answer. Perhaps when he next gets up he will tell us. there. On the arms embargo and supplying weapons to the rebels, he said last week: When the Prime Minister replies, will he also confirm “If we help to tip the balance in that way, there is a greater that if he takes a decision to arm the rebels in Syria, chance of political transition succeeding.”—[Official Report,3June there will be a vote of this House on a substantive 2013; Vol. 563, c. 1239.] motion, in Government time, with a recall of Parliament Given that Russia seems ready to supply more weapons from recess if necessary? to Syria, does he think it is in any sense realistic for a strategy of tipping the balance to work? The Prime Minister: First, as I have said, we all want to see a peace conference come about. The question is: The Prime Minister: First of all, I thank the right how are we most likely to put pressure on the parties to hon. Gentleman for raising this issue. He is absolutely attend that peace conference? I have to say, going back right. We should use the G8 to try to bring pressure on to the very first thing that the right hon. Gentleman all sides to bring about what we all want in this House, said about the Russian decision to arm the regime, the which is a peace conference, a peace process, and the Russian regime has been arming it for decades and, move towards a transitional Government in Syria. I am frankly, it is naive to believe anything else. That is delighted to tell the House that, in advance of the G8, important. President Putin will be coming for meetings in Downing On safeguards, we are not supplying the opposition street on Sunday, when we can discuss this. Because we with weapons. We are supplying them with technical 333 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 334 assistance and non-lethal equipment. We have made no get on top of the welfare bill, but protect pensioners decision to supply the opposition with weapons, so that who have worked hard all their lives and saved for their is the answer to that question. retirement. I have done a little due diligence on the On the issue of the House of Commons, as the Opposition’s policy. Last week, they announced that Foreign Secretary and I have made clear, I have always they wanted a welfare cap. I thought, “That’s interesting. believed in allowing the House of Commons a say on That’s progress.” However, when you look at it, would all these issues. I think that was right when it came to they cap the welfare bill for those in work? No they Iraq, it was right when we made the decision to help the would not. Would they cap housing benefit? No they opposition in Libya, and it would be right for it to would not. The one thing that they want to cap, apparently, happen in the future as well. Let me stress again, is pensions. So there we have it: protect welfare, punish however, that we have made no decision to arm the hard workers and target pensioners—more of the same rebels in Syria. “something for nothing” culture that got this country into the mess in the first place. Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): On the Edward Miliband: Today’s fall in unemployment of Government plan to double the size of our reserve 5,000 people is welcome, but will the Prime Minister forces, has the Prime Minister considered the role that explain why today’s figures also show that three years retired Ghurkhas might play? Now that they are allowed into his Government, living standards continue to fall? to settle here, many Ghurkhas have told me that they would welcome an ongoing connection with the British The Prime Minister: First, it is worth announcing to Army, but there is no real routine or tradition of recruiting the House what today’s unemployment figures show. them. I do not think there is any impediment, but it will They show that employment—the number of people in not happen by magic. Will the Prime Minister authorise work in this country—is going up, that unemployment an initiative to recruit them? is going down, and that—[Interruption.] I know that the Labour party does not want to hear good news, but The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an excellent I think it is important that we hear it. The claimant suggestion. One of the ways that we can best build up count—the number of people claiming unemployment the fully funded and fully equipped larger reserve of benefit—has fallen for the seventh month in a row. It is 30,000 that we want to see is to make sure that there are interesting that over the past year, while we have lost better opportunities for those who have served in the 100,000 jobs in the public sector, we have gained five regular Army to serve in the reserves. I am sure that my times that amount in private sector employment. right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary will look at my hon. Friend’s point about the Ghurkhas and see what The figures show some increase in wages, but real can be done. wages have obviously been under huge pressure ever since the calamitous boom and bust over which the right hon. Gentleman presided. What is good for people Q2. [159126] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I do not know whether the Prime Minister watched the is that this Government are cutting their income tax this “Panorama” programme on Monday night, but I am year. sure he will be aware of the subject of blacklisting. The Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman is into programme confirmed what many of us, particularly his fourth year as Prime Minister and his excuse for members of the Scottish Affairs Committee, already falling living standards is, “Don’t blame me, I’m only knew: that thousands of people in this country have the Prime Minister.” It is simply not good enough. He been subjected to blacklisting. It has been compared to does not understand that because of his failure to get McCarthyism, but I think it is worse than that: it is growth in the economy, wages are falling for ordinary secretive, behind closed doors and many people who people. He wants to tell them that they are better off, are on a blacklist do not even know that they are on but actually they are worse off. Will he confirm that one. Will the Prime Minister call for an urgent inquiry today’s figures show that, after inflation, people’s wages into this practice, which I refer to not as McCarthyism, have fallen since he came to power by more than £1,300 but as McAlpinism? a year on average? The Prime Minister: To answer the question very The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman might directly, I did not see “Panorama” on Monday night, have noticed that the figures announced by the Institute but I will ask for a report on it. As the hon. Gentleman for Fiscal Studies are from 2008, when he was sitting in knows, the Government do not support blacklisting the Cabinet. It is worth remembering that while he was and have taken action against it. Energy Secretary, sitting in the Cabinet, the economy got smaller—it shrank month after month after month. Q3. [159127] Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I thank the Under this Government, there are 1.25 million more Prime Minister for his recent visit to Erewash to private sector jobs and there has been good growth in support the historic furniture making industry. Does he private sector employment this year. That is what is agree that we can best help the hard-working staff he happening. Of course living standards are under pressure. met at Duresta in these tough times by protecting their That is why we are freezing council tax. [Interruption.] pensions and capping benefits, rather than by The shadow Chancellor is shouting away, as ever. protecting benefits and cutting pensions, as the Labour [Interruption.] party would do? Mr Speaker: Order. There is excessive noise in the The Prime Minister: I well remember my visit to my Chamber. Members must not shout at the Prime Minister hon. Friend’s constituency. She is right that people in any more than anyone should shout at the Leader of the this country want to know that we will cap welfare and Opposition. Let the answers be heard. 335 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 336

The Prime Minister: The answer is that there are that is the case. The second important thing is that in 1.25 million more private sector jobs under this order to take part in the scheme, a person must have a Government, and that is a good record. credit record in this country. So no, the scheme will not do what she says it would. Edward Miliband: There is no answer from the Prime Minister on the living standards crisis that is facing Q5. [159129] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): As a families up and down the country. It is no wonder what former pensions manager I was proud that this his side is saying about him. This is what the hon. Government introduced a new triple lock formula— Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) [Interruption.] wrote about him at the weekend—[Interruption.] I know that Government Members do not want to hear Mr Speaker: Order. This is very discourteous. The it, but he said: hon. Gentleman, like every Member, should be treated “It’s like being in an aeroplane. The pilot doesn’t know how to with courtesy. Let us hear what he has to say. land it. We can either do something about it…or sit back, watch the in-flight movies and wait for the inevitable.” I could not have put it better myself about this Prime Richard Graham: As a former pensions manager I Minister. The reality is that day in, day out, what people was proud when this Government introduced a new see—[Interruption.] Calm down, just calm down. The triple lock formula on our state pension that increased crimson tide is back. Day in, day out, people see prices by £234 in its first year for every pensioner in the land. rising and wages falling, while the Prime Minister tells Does the Prime Minister share my concern that under them that they are better off. He claims that the economy the shadow Chancellor’s plans to cut or cap pensions, is healing, but for ordinary families life is getting harder. all our pensioners will lose that increase and their They are worse off under the Tories. standard of living will fall sharply?

The Prime Minister: Only someone who wants to talk The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely down our economy could pick a day like today—more right. This Government have put a cap on the welfare people in work, unemployment down, youth unemployment that families can receive, but we have been as generous down, the claimant count down, yet not one word of as we can with pensioners who have worked hard during respect for that good agenda on jobs. The right hon. their lives and want to have dignity and security in old Gentleman talks about aeroplanes. Never mind getting age. That is why we have the triple lock. Very interestingly, on aeroplanes, this is what the former Home Secretary, we now know that the Labour party wants to cut the the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and pension because it is putting a cap on pensions but not Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said about his leadership: on welfare. Just this morning the shadow Foreign Secretary “we are literally going nowhere”. was on television—the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) may not know this as he He has not even got on the aeroplane because he has might not have been following it—and when challenged not got a clue. about the triple lock he said that it was Labour’s policy “at present”. Given all the U-turns we have had in the Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Last December, last week from the Labour party, I do not think “at the whole of Shropshire welcomed the Government’s present” will last very long. support for a new direct rail link from Shropshire to London. This week, however, Network Rail has blocked Q6. [159130] Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) Virgin’s bid. Does the Prime Minister agree with me (Lab): Will the Prime Minister congratulate Bolton that Network Rail should not get in the way of the will Wanderers football club for doing the right thing by of the Shropshire people or economic progress? rejecting sponsorship from a payday loan firm, and will he also join in, do the right thing, and give local The Prime Minister: We want to see more direct rail authorities the power to ban those predatory loan links such as the one my hon. Friend mentioned, and sharks from our high streets? there is also a need for better links to Lancashire and Blackpool. One issue that the rail industry is battling with is the shortage of capacity, and High Speed 2 will The Prime Minister: I hear what the hon. Gentleman help bring that freeing up of capacity to make more of says and I wish Bolton Wanderers well for the future. those direct links possible. I was discussing that yesterday We must give more support to credit unions in our with the Transport Secretary, and we should be making country, which I think is one of the best ways of some progress. addressing the whole problem of payday loans and payday lending. I also hope the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that over the past year unemployment Q4. [159128] Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) has fallen fastest in the north west of our country. (Lab/Co-op): Last week the Prime Minister could not confirm that taxpayers would not subsidise foreign buyers of property in the UK. Perhaps he can instead Q7. [159131] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): clarify whether his Help to Buy scheme will see This is national carers week. Will the Prime Minister taxpayers help fund purchases of second homes and join me in paying tribute—[Interruption.] holiday cottages. Mr Speaker: Order. If the session has to be extended The Prime Minister: Let me try to give the hon. Lady to accommodate the democratic rights of Members, it some satisfaction. First, this scheme is for people’s only will be extended. The hon. Gentleman will—I repeat home and it will have a mechanism in place to ensure will—be heard. 337 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 338

Dr Huppert: This is national carers week, so will the Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to the huge Mathmos makes lava lamps in my constituency—it has commitment that thousands of carers make day in, day been making them for 50 years. It has very large exports out, caring for ill, frail and disabled family members, to Germany, but has run into a problem with the friends and partners, often unrecognised and without reclassification of the product. May I send the information financial assistance? Will he sign up to the carers week to the Prime Minister and enlist his support for this recommendations in “Prepared to Care?” innovative company operating so well within our country?

The Prime Minister: On this one, the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: I am happy to receive the speaks for the whole House and the whole country in information from my hon. Friend. It is important that praising Britain’s carers. They do an amazing job. If we get Britain’s exports up. If we moved from one in five they stopped caring, the cost to the taxpayer would be of our small and medium-sized enterprises exporting to phenomenal, so we should do what we can to support one in four, we would wipe out our export deficit our carers, and to ensure they get the proper respite altogether, so I am happy to get my office to look at the breaks from caring that they need to go on doing the information she has. wonderful work they do.

Q10. [159134] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Q8. [159132] Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): Why (Lab): The accident and emergency department at has the number of supply teachers in secondary Ealing hospital is one of four that the Prime Minister schools in the past year increased by a staggering 17%? is closing in north-west London. I welcome the Health Secretary’s review, but with waiting times at a The Prime Minister: I do not have the figures for that, nine-year high, ambulances being diverted and the risk but we have protected the amount of money that goes of unnecessary deaths, will the Prime Minister into schools per pupil so that schools have the money to acknowledge that the closures are not a serious option employ the teachers they need. if the NHS is safe in his hands?

Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Since The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, 2010, unemployment in Brentford and Isleworth has the Health Secretary has asked the Independent fallen by 6.9% and youth unemployment has fallen by Reconfiguration Panel to conduct a full review of the 19%. I will do my part as an organiser—I held my jobs proposals, and it will submit its advice to him no later and apprenticeships fair in Isleworth recently—but does than mid-September. Let us be absolutely clear: whatever that not show that our economic plan is working? decision is reached, the proposals will not be due to lack of central Government funding. North-west London The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely will receive £3.6 billion, which is £100 million more than right. We see today a growth in employment, a fall in the previous year. Of course, if we had listened to the the claimant count and a fall in youth unemployment. Labour party, which said that more NHS spending was As I have said, we are losing jobs in the public sector “irresponsible”, his hospitals would be receiving £100 million because we had to make cuts to it, but, most importantly less. of all, while we lost more than 100,000 jobs in the public sector in the past year, we gained five times as Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): Will the Prime many in the private sector—[Interruption.] The shadow Minister join me in congratulating the China-Britain Chancellor, as ever, wants to give a running commentary, Business Council, which, under its inspirational vice- but let me remind the House what he has said, because chairman, Mr Peter Batey, organised a seminar on this is one of the most important quotations in the past exporting to China that was attended by more than 10 years of British politics. He said: 60 businesses in Watford last Friday? I think it should “Do I think the last Labour government spent too much, was be congratulated on that initiative. profligate, had too” much The Prime Minister: I am very happy to extend my “national debt? No, I don’t think there’s any evidence for that.” praise to the China-Britain Business Council. If we That phrase will be hung around his neck for ever. look at the evidence of the past few years, there is now a significant increase in British exports to China, and a Q9. [159133] Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Five big increase in Chinese direct investment into the UK. hundred homes in my constituency were flooded in All of that is welcome and we need to see it grow even November. Residents in my constituency are terrified further. that their homes and businesses are now worthless because this Government have failed to replace the Q11. [159135] Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) flood insurance scheme. They have also cut more than (Lab): Will the Prime Minister confirm that he £200 million from flood defence works. Why has the understands the importance of the creative industries Prime Minister sold my constituency down the river? to the economy of this country, and that they need to be buttressed by adequate intellectual property rights? The Prime Minister: I can give the hon. Gentleman Is he also aware, however, that his intellectual property welcome news. We had to extend the period of the Minister, that horny-handed son of toil, the fifth scheme so that we could continue negotiations, but I am Viscount Younger of Leckie, recently told the Culture, confident that we will put in place a proper successor to Media and Sport Committee, in relation to Google, it. An announcement will be made quite soon. that 339 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 340

“I am very aware of their power…I am also very aware…that they ill child wanting the best care for that child, you need to have access, for whatever reason, to higher levels than me in know that you are getting something that is world best No. 10”. when it comes to really technical operations, but you Is that not a disgraceful comment on the way this cannot have that everywhere. Clearly, however, the Government—[Interruption.] conclusion is that this process, which started in 2008, has not been carried out properly, so we need to make a Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question, restart. which refers to a distinguished constituent of mine, suffered from the disadvantage of being too long. Q13. [159137] Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): Is the Prime Minister aware that last year The Prime Minister: First, I agree with the hon. Britain became a net exporter of cars for the first time Gentleman that our creative industries are incredibly since 1976? If this trend continues, the UK will produce important for Britain’s future. The music industry has an all-time record of 2 million cars in 2017. Is this not had a record year in terms of sales. One in every four a really good example of a high added-value sector albums sold in Europe is made here in the UK, which is upskilling and putting the “great” back into British something we can be very proud of. We have to get the manufacturing and exports? intellectual property regime right, which is why we are legislating on it. We have already taken action to extend the life of copyright protection to 75 years, which has The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely been welcomed across the music industry. I simply do right that this is a good example of a British industry not accept what he says about my Ministers. Indeed, the that is succeeding. If we look at Honda, Nissan, Toyota Minister with most responsibility for this matter is the or Jaguar Land Rover, we see really good news in our Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, automotive sector. We now need to get behind it and the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), and I think encourage it to have as much of its supply chain onshore his father was ennobled by Harold Wilson, so that does as possible. That is beginning to happen in these industries, not really fit. and I hope for further progress in the months ahead.

Q12. [159136] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) Q14. [159138] Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon (Con): Will the Prime Minister join me in praising the Tyne North) (Lab): This week, Newcastle city council hard work of the right hon. Member for South has revealed that rent arrears have increased by more Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) and the than £550,000 since the bedroom tax was introduced in Secretary of State for Communities and Local April. Furthermore, 60% of affected households are Government for ensuring that planning decisions taken falling into arrears. When will the Prime Minister at local level concerning wind turbines remain local? admit that this devastating policy risks costing more However, many of my constituents in South East than it saves? Cornwall are becoming increasingly concerned that our green fields are becoming solar fields. Should decisions The Prime Minister: We ended the spare room subsidy on solar fields be subject to the same planning rules as because we did not think it was fair to give to people in wind turbines? council houses a subsidy that those in private rented accommodation did not have. There is now a question The Prime Minister: I absolutely join my hon. Friend for the Labour party: if it is to have this welfare cap, will in praising the excellent work done by the right hon. it now tell us whether it will reverse this change? Will Member for South Holland and The Deepings, which you? [Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor is shaking has been carried on by the Minister of State, Department his head. Is that a no? That is right. After all the talk of for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the last few weeks—the iron discipline we were going to the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon). They have hear about, the welfare cap they were telling us about—they both done a very good job at bringing some sanity to have failed the first test. the situation on onshore wind. On solar panels, the Government of course substantially reduced the feed-in Q15. [159139] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Tax tariffs to ensure that this industry was not over-subsidised, avoidance is rightly at the heart of the G8 agenda. Will because all subsidies end up on consumers’ bills and we my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister tell the House should think very carefully about that. what advice he might have received on this issue from either the leader of the Labour party or the Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Glenfield hospital international, pizza and expensive curry-loving shadow has the second best survival rates from children’s heart Chancellor? surgery in the country. Will the Prime Minister ensure that the quality of care—including survival rates, which are what matter most to parents—is central to any The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good decision on the future of these services? point. It is this Government who are putting aggressive tax avoidance at the heart of the G8 agenda, and what The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely do we hear this week from the Labour party? They give right. My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary will tax avoidance advice to their donors. That is what it has make an announcement shortly about Safe and Sustainable been doing: £700,000 of tax has been avoided because and children’s heart operations. We have to be frank of what Labour advised its donor to do. with people: we cannot expect really technical surgery, such as children’s heart operations, to be carried out at Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): Calm every hospital in the country.As the parent of a desperately down. 341 Oral Answers12 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 342

The Prime Minister: The shadow Chancellor asks me Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): As we approach to calm down. Frankly, I cannot calm down because the 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha disaster, will this is money that ought to be going into our health the Prime Minister join me in recognising the challenges service, education and training young people. Let me we face in continuing to bring oil and gas ashore from challenge the Opposition: will you give the money back? the North sea, the skills and dedication of those who do Yes or no? It is very simple. On 2 April, the Labour it and the paramount importance of safety in ensuring leader said—according to The Guardian,soitmustbe that we can continue to exploit these resources? true—that “tax avoidance is a terrible thing”. The Prime Minister: I certainly join my right hon. He has also said: Friend in praising the North sea oil and gas industry. It “If everyone approaches their tax affairs as some of these is a real jewel in the crown of the United Kingdom companies have approached their tax affairs we wouldn’t have a economy. What is encouraging is that this year we are health service, we wouldn’t have an education system.” seeing a growth in production, as a number of new That is the shameful state of the Labour party today. fields and projects come on stream, but he is absolutely right to say that at all times safety and security are Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) absolutely paramount. (Lab): This week is carers week. Will the Prime Minister show support for the 7 million unpaid carers across the country and invest £1.2 billion from last year’s NHS Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): under-spend in social care, as we have pledged to do, so On a point of order, Mr Speaker. averting the Government-made crisis in accident and emergency and social care? Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member of the House. Points of order The Prime Minister: We could start with the money come after statements. I feel sure that he will be just as from Labour’s tax avoiding. That is money that should keen at that point and will spring up from his seat to be going into the care system and the NHS. The favour the House with his thoughts. Government have put £12.7 billion extra into our NHS. That is how we are supporting carers and hospitals, but We shall now have a statement from the Secretary of the hon. Lady can have a word with the shadow Chancellor State for Health, who is at this moment beetling towards and her leader and say, “Pay the taxes you owe.” the Dispatch Box. 343 12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 344

Children’s Heart Surgery in detail at the affordability and sustainability of the proposals. The IRP says, and I agree, that this is not a mandate for the status quo or for going back over all 12.35 pm the ground already covered during the last five years. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): The case for change commands widespread support, With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a and we must continue to seek every opportunity to statement on the Safe and Sustainable review of children’s improve services for children. congenital heart services. The recommendations in the report set out the IRP’s On average, around 3,700 heart procedures are carried view of what needs to be done to bring about the out each year on children who have been diagnosed desired improvements in services in a way that addresses with congenital heart conditions. The mortality rates at the gaps and weaknesses in the original proposals. Bristol royal infirmary identified as far back as 1989 Specifically, they include better co-ordination with the indicated that we are not as successful as we should be review of adult heart surgery services; expanding the in such operations. The Safe and Sustainable review detailed work on the clinical model and associated began in 2008 and set out to ensure that children’s heart service standards for the whole pathway of care, beyond services are the best they can be for all children across surgery; services to be fully modelled, and their affordability the country. Whatever the controversy about the location re-tested; NHS England to establish a systematic, of such services, we all have a responsibility to ensure transparent, authoritative and continuous stream of the best possible outcomes for children and their families, data and information about the performance of congenital who must always come first in any decision about heart services; NHS England and the relevant professional service provision. associations to put in place the means to continuously review the pattern of activity and optimise outcomes Sir Ian Kennedy, in his Bristol inquiry report in 2001, for the more rare, innovative and complex procedures; recommended the concentration of medical and nursing NHS England to reflect on the criticisms of the JCPCT’s expertise in a smaller number of centres. Subsequent assessment of quality and to learn lessons to avoid working groups and reports have endorsed that similar situations in its future commissioning of specialist recommendation, including the Royal College of Surgeons services; and NHS England to use the lessons from this in 2007. The public consultation on the Safe and Sustainable review to create with its partners a more resource-effective review received more than 75,000 responses. This was and time-effective process for achieving genuine involvement the largest review of its kind, conducted independently and engagement in its commissioning of specialist services. of Government by the NHS. In July 2012, the then Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts, on behalf of NHS England now must move forward on the basis local NHS commissioners, decided that children’s heart of these clear recommendations and the Leeds court surgery networks should be formally structured around judgment. I have therefore written today to NHS England, specialist surgical centres in Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, and to the local overview and scrutiny committees that Newcastle and Southampton, as well as Great Ormond originally referred the JCPCT’s decision to me, to explain Street and the Evelina children’s hospital in London. that the IRP’s report shows that the proposals of the The JCPCT recommended that services should no longer Safe and Sustainable review clearly cannot go ahead in be provided in Leicester, Leeds and Oxford or at the their current form. It is right to give all the parties some Royal Brompton or Harefield in London. time to reflect on the best way forward, now that the IRP report is in the public domain, so I have asked Following the JCPCT’s announcement, three local NHS England to report back to me by the end of July health overview and scrutiny committees formally referred on how it intends to proceed. In the meantime, it is its decision for me to review. I wrote to the Independent important to stress that I believe that care for children Reconfiguration Panel asking it to undertake a full with congenital heart conditions is safe in the NHS, and review of the proposals. I received that report on 30 April, that ensuring it continues to be will be the top priority and I would like to thank the IRP for producing such a for all involved in this process. comprehensive review of such a challenging topic. It strongly agrees with the case for change—specifically, I know that many families have found the Safe and that congenital cardiac surgery and interventional Sustainable review to be a traumatic experience. People cardiology should be provided only by specialist teams are rightly proud of the hospitals and the staff that have large enough to sustain a comprehensive range of saved, or tried their very best to save, the lives of their interventions, round-the-clock care, specialist training children. However, there is overwhelming consensus and research. I agree with the IRP’s analysis. that we cannot stick with the model of care that we have now. To do so would be a betrayal of the families who However, the report also concludes that the outcome lost loved ones in Bristol and who want nothing more of the Safe and Sustainable review was based on a than for the NHS to learn the lessons from their personal flawed analysis of the impact of incomplete proposals tragedies. So it is right we continue with this process, and leaves too many questions about sustainability and albeit in a different way. But it is also essential that the implementation. This is clearly a serious criticism of the process should be performed correctly so that any decisions, Safe and Sustainable process. I therefore accept the as difficult as they might ultimately be, carry the confidence recommendation that the proposals cannot go ahead in of the public. I commend the report and this statement their current form, and I am suspending the review to the House. today. NHS England will also seek to withdraw its appeal against the judicial review successfully achieved 12.42 pm by Save Our Surgery in Leeds. None the less, the IRP is clear that the clinical case for change remains, and its Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I thank the Secretary report is helpful in setting out the way forward in terms of State for giving me early sight of his statement. He of broadening the scope of the discussion and looking was right to begin by reminding the House of the events 345 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 346 that led to the Safe and Sustainable review. Terrible Is there not a real danger that by linking the review with failings in the care of very sick children at the Bristol adult heart surgery, the Secretary of State is introducing royal infirmary in the 1980s and 1990s led Sir Ian more complexity and, potentially, controversy, risking a Kennedy to call for expertise to be concentrated in loss of focus and more delay? By broadening out in this fewer surgical sites—a call supported by more recent way, is there not a danger that we will lose the consensus events, including those at the John Radcliffe hospital in that has already been gained over the future of children’s 2010. Since Bristol, Sir Ian’s important conclusion has heart surgery? I would be grateful if the right hon. had the full support of the health professions and of Gentleman would say more on those points. those on both sides of this House. As we digest what the This decision will also have implications for the timetable Secretary of State has just said, two considerations of the children’s review and it will not have escaped the must remain at the forefront of our minds. First, that House’s notice that that Secretary of State has not this issue must continue to transcend party politics. announced a clear timetable. Can he set out more Secondly, that the complexity it presents should not precisely a timetable for the decision making that will derail our determination to deliver the safest possible now follow? He says that the review will be concluded care for children in England. by the autumn. What people will want to know is when That said, changes of this magnitude must be able to the decisions will be made and implemented. Can he say command public confidence and consensus, but that more about that? has not emerged since the decision on site selection by the Joint Committee. I fully support the reduction in The statement sets out a major role for NHS England sites, but when the decision was published I expressed going forward and questions may be asked about the concern about the distribution of the seven sites, which independence of the review he has announced. What was skewed towards the western half of England and guarantees can he give that NHS England will operate left a large swath of the east, from Newcastle to London, independently of vested interests linked to the 10 sites? without a surgical centre. For a family in Hull or Finally, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree Lincoln, already at their wits’ end with worry, the that we cannot risk any loss of confidence in the process, wrench of leaving home to travel hundreds of miles, damaging confidence in all 10 existing sites. Will he say along with the cost of accommodation and time off more about what he will do in the interim period to work, would add to high levels of stress and anxiety. support all existing units and ensure that there is no loss That is why the issue has aroused such strength of of expertise? feeling, particularly across Yorkshire, the Humber and In conclusion, it is, of course, essential that the public the east midlands—a concern well voiced and represented have confidence in the process and the final decision. by Members throughout the House. Balanced against that, however, is the fact that unnecessary Although clinical safety must predominate, does the delay will not bring the best results for the children who Secretary of State agree that the NHS needs to give most need our help. The Secretary of State is right to more consideration to public access and travel times say that we need a process that is seen to be fair by all when reconfiguring services? The truth is that the NHS concerned, but, equally, a point will come when decisions has a habit of minimising these concerns in all must be made. In the end, I want to assure the Secretary reconfigurations—in this case, as the IRP report points of State that when he comes to face up to those difficult out, the Joint Committee considered access the least decisions, he will have our support in doing so. important factor. The IRP concluded, surely rightly, that Mr Hunt: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the “the decision used a flawed and incomplete analysis of accessibility”. tone of his comments and the bipartisan way in which Going forward, will the Secretary of State ensure that he has approached these issues. I particularly welcome this is corrected and that access is made a significant his last point. We have many debates in this House, but factor in any future decision? this is one issue where we are completely at one. If there Turning to the review itself, the Secretary of State is a difficult decision to be made that will save children’s will know that one of the main concerns has been that lives, we must have the courage to take it. I am grateful the mortality data were not given enough weight. Although for the right hon. Gentleman’s support on that. decisions of this kind cannot be based on death rates alone, we agree with John Deanfield, director of the I think that the right hon. Gentleman will also agree National Institute for Cardiovascular Outcomes Research with me that while this issue transcends party politics, it who wrote in his letter to NHS England in April: is one from which all of us—on both sides of the “Mortality is only one measure of quality, but currently is the House, throughout the NHS and indeed in local most…available outcome.” authorities—have things to learn. I think that the biggest Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that this data issue for us all to consider is the sheer amount of time will feature more prominently in the further process of that it has taken. The original concerns about what review announced today? happened in Bristol were raised in 1989. I am pleased to My main concern with what the Secretary of State say that they have been dealt with, but there are broader, has just announced is the proposal to link the children’s system-wide lessons to be learnt. It took until 2001 for review with the review of adult heart services, and the Sir Ian Kennedy’s report to be completed, it took until implications that might have for the timetable. The 2008 for the Safe and Sustainable review to begin, and Secretary of State will know that there are around now, in 2013, we are having to suspend the process yet 30 centres across England carrying out adult heart again. What has happened is not the right outcome for surgery. The seven selected children’s centres are not all children, and we must all learn the lessons from that. co-located with adult heart surgery and, indeed, a number The right hon. Gentleman mentioned site selection. I of them are on specialist children sites, so the link consider that to be one of the most crucial areas in between children’s and adult heart surgery is not clear. which the process was flawed. Whether we should involve 347 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 348

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Mr Hunt: I agree with my right hon. Friend on both those points, as, indeed, on many others. It is true that adult heart services is a difficult question, but one of the Safe and Sustainable process did not have the confidence the key recommendations in the IRP’s report is that of the public. It should be emphasised that when a they should be taken into account. I think that we controversial and difficult change is proposed, there is should pay attention to that recommendation, because always likely to be public opposition. However—as I the panel thought about it very carefully. The reason for am sure we shall hear from Leeds Members in particular— its view was that the same surgeons often operate on this process did not command confidence in Leeds, or children and on adults. Adults also have congenital in other centres, because there was a sense that the heart conditions that require operations. The panel also outcome had been determined before the start of the says that if the best outcomes are to be achieved for consultation. The public found that totally unacceptable, children, services must be concentrated in teams that and indeed it is unacceptable. The point of a consultation have four full-time surgeons, provide specialist training, is for those who initiate it to listen genuinely, and to and conduct research. The knock-on impact of what is engage with stakeholders. That must be one of the most happening in adult heart services is relevant. important lessons to learn. I agree with the thrust of what the right hon. Gentleman My right hon. Friend was also right to suggest that, said about mortality data, but I know that he will also in general, this is not a success for the NHS. We need a understand the difficulty of publishing such data on a much better process to enable us to face difficult decisions very small number of cases when it may not be statistically about reconfigurations of services, and, in particular, significant. That was one of the great debates that we carrying the public with us when we must make a had over the temporary suspension of services at Leeds. difficult change that will save lives. We have not done We must be careful not to publish data that could lead that as well as we need to. the public to make the wrong conclusions. In principle, however, transparency is the most important thing for Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It has been clear us to bring about. to many of us for a long time that this process was I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman about flawed, and that has now been recognised by the IRP. I the timetable. I think that we must get on with this pay tribute to the extraordinary campaign in support of process: I do not want to delay it any more than is the Leeds children’s heart surgery unit in my constituency, necessary. I have talked extensively to NHS England which has helped to bring us to this day. about how it should be approached. NHS England—along I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, but with all the stakeholders involved—needs time in which does he agree that it is important for the process to be to digest the contents of the IRP report, which was open and transparent this time, and to focus on what it published only today. I consider that the minimum is meant to be about, namely ensuring that the very best period that I need to allow it in which to come up with surgery is available for our very sick children? the timetable is until the end of next month. I appreciate that that is six weeks, but I think that it is a sensible period. I certainly want to be able to publish an indicative Mr Hunt: That is entirely right. On this occasion, it is timetable by then, so that people can understand how clear that the concerns of the campaigners were valid, the process will continue and how we will learn the and that the process was not conducted as it should lessons. have been. Interestingly, the campaigners commented that they felt that their engagement with the IRP was a I also agree with the right hon. Gentleman that much more open process than their engagement with nothing in my statement should undermine the public’s the NHS. confidence in the brilliant work being done by heart surgeons all over the country for adults and children. Many people in the NHS believe passionately, and Our heart surgery survival rates have improved so much for absolutely the right reasons, that we need to change that they are now some of the best in Europe, and we the way in which services are delivered. I agree with can be very proud of the work that those surgeons do, them, and specialised services such as those that we are day in, day out. However, that does not mean that we discussing today provide a very good example of that. cannot strive to be even better. We know that the more operations a heart surgeon performs, the better he or she will become at his or her job, and the more likely a successful outcome is. However, Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): I welcome if we are to carry the public with us—and they are, after the statement, although, in a sense, I welcome it with a all, the people whom the NHS is there for—we must do heavy heart. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the a much better job of genuine engagement. Safe and Sustainable process could not go ahead because it had fundamentally lost the confidence of both patients Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): I thank and clinicians, and therefore did not form a proper basis the Secretary of State for an intelligent and thoroughly for necessary change? considered statement which will have brought great Given that it is now more than 12 years since the joy to many people in Leicestershire. I also commend publication of Sir Ian Kennedy’s report, does my right the shadow Secretary of State for dealing with the hon. Friend agree that this is not a success for the NHS? matter on a cross-party basis. We in Leicestershire have Does he agree that it is a real challenge for NHS dealt with it on that basis as well: my hon. Friend the England to put a proper time frame around necessary Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) and the change for these services, and then to use that as a basis hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) have for changes that we know to be needed in other specialist been, if I may say so, the leading ladies in the Glenfield services in the national health service? hospital campaign. 349 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 350

I am grateful for the respite that we are being given by based on the fundamental principle of patient choice the Secretary of State. What advice can he give us to and that doctors should go where the patients are, give to the clinicians, nurses and parents of patients at rather than the other way around? Glenfield hospital about how best to present, or re-present, their case between now and the time at which he and his Mr Hunt: Patient choice is very important, but it is advisers will reach a final conclusion about the disposition also fair to say that there are other considerations in of children’s heart services? such a review, such as clinical best practice and what outcomes will get the best results for children. We need Mr Hunt: We must all engage with the process thoroughly to be up front with the public that that will not mean and fully. We, as Members of Parliament, have a specialist children’s heart surgery being offered in every responsibility to engage with our constituents about major city in this country. There will be some difficult some of the complexities involved. The issue of mortality decisions at the end of the process. The broader point rates, which was raised by the right hon. Member for about patient choice, when it comes to considering Leigh (Andy Burnham), is one of those complexities. mortality rates, is that it ties in very well with the They are very important, but they are not the only concept of peer review. The way we can get better consideration, and, when it comes to specialised services, outcomes for children is by being able to compare what they are extremely difficult to interpret properly. We happens in different centres, and that is a very important must engage in an intelligent and constructive way, and part of the process. reassure our constituents that all of us—Government and Opposition—want the best outcome for children, Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): Will the outcome that will save the most children’s lives. the Secretary of State acknowledge one fact that has Let me return to what the Prime Minister said earlier. complicated this process? A foundation trust that loses I have no problem with explaining to my constituents children’s heart surgery will probably lose paediatric that in the case of certain services, they are better off intensive care and, therefore, all the rest of its paediatric travelling further. I did not respond earlier to the right service activities, doing potentially catastrophic damage hon. Gentleman’s point about travel, so let me say now to the budgets of some trusts. Are the institutional that I agree with him that it must be taken into pressures on individual trusts not one reason why it has consideration. According to the IRP’s report, the whole been so hard to get a collaborative approach to that care pathway needs to be examined. That means not fundamental change? How does the Secretary of State just the visit to the hospital for surgery, but follow-up intend to resolve that issue as he moves forward with care and early assessments. In that context, then travel the review? becomes much more important. If we are honest with our constituents about the fact Mr Hunt: The independent review says that the knock-on that there may be a difficult decision at the end of the effects on adult heart surgery, and the interrelationship process, we are much more likely to earn their trust. between the two, need to be considered. There are always knock-on effects of a service reconfiguration. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): Within reason, one must consider them, but one must How much public money has been spent on taking us to also bear in mind what the right hon. Member for Leigh the point that we have now reached? Is the IRP report (Andy Burnham) said: one must ensure that one does available to Members of Parliament? Will the Secretary not overcomplicate the reviews. If we consider every of State say a little more about the process that will take single knock-on effect of every single change, the danger place between now and the day on which he must come is that we end up not being able to change anything at to the Dispatch Box and announce very difficult and all, which on this occasion would be an abdication of controversial decisions to the House, and will his decisions our important responsibilities. stick? Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I have Mr Hunt: The cost to date of the Safe and Sustainable called consistently for leadership and accountability. I process is about £6 million and Members of this House believe that we have had those things today, and I thank will rightly ask whether that money has been spent well, the Secretary of State and his colleagues in the Department given the flaws in the process identified today by the for that. I have said consistently that there was something IRP. I would also say, however, that it is right to spend wrong with the decision-making process. We were right, money on carrying out such processes properly. It would whereas those who told us that we should be quiet and be the wrong approach to say that, based on the cost of ignore the serious flaws, clear bias and utter lack of the process, we are not prepared to consider how we can transparency were wrong. May we have a full investigation improve services. into the clear maladministration in the course of the On the timetable, now that the report is public—it is review? Will the Secretary of State assure the House available to Members of the House and the public as of that lessons will be learned, which is key, and that those today—I have given NHS England and all stakeholders conflicted people who have let children down and wasted until the end of next month to come back to me with a taxpayers’ money will play no part in any further review revised plan. in the NHS?

Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I agree with Mr Hunt: I can confirm that a thorough process of the Secretary of State that families must come first. For learning the lessons will happen. As I said earlier, we me, that means the families of Ben Pogson and Joel must learn big lessons about the time it takes to make Bearder, young constituents of mine who have been very important service changes in the NHS, not just in treated at the wonderful Leeds unit. Will my right hon. children’s heart surgery but in many other areas. We Friend give an assurance that the new review will be need to learn those lessons. The person who was responsible 351 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 352

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Mr Hunt: On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, we need to be very careful about how we use any mortality for the JCPCT, Sir Neil McKay, is no longer responsible data, particularly on specialist services where distortions and has retired from the NHS. We need to look at can be based on just one or two operations. I know that everyone who was involved in the process and see where he will agree, however, that we have a responsibility to the right calls were and were not made. If we do not, we act if we have genuine concerns. That is what happened will never be able to make important changes in the and the process over Easter was very difficult. One NHS—and we have a big responsibility to make those lesson we have learned in the NHS is that in Bristol it changes. took a very long time—years—before anything was done about the higher mortality rates and we do not Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): The proposed want to make that mistake again. I take on board the reconfiguration of children’s heart surgery has gone on hon. Gentleman’s other point, too. for years. Meanwhile, children are suffering and even dying. Why cannot the Secretary of State have a more Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I know that many of rigorous timetable based on the lessons learned from the staff and patients at the Royal Brompton hospital the review so far? will very much welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement today. Although the hospital is not in my constituency, Mr Hunt: That is what I absolutely want to do. One many of the staff live in my constituency and other hon. huge frustration for those on both sides of the House Members have been extremely active in making the has been how the process has dragged on. If I could Royal Brompton’s case over recent months. There was have come to the House today with a detailed timetable, particular concern about the possible impact on other I would have. Although we had internal access to the specialisms of any decision to withdraw children’s heart report before today while I considered its findings and surgery, so can my constituents be assured that such reached a judgment, we believed that it was necessary concern will be taken into account in any future process? for external stakeholders to see the report and give their view of how the timetable should proceed. That is why I Mr Hunt: The IRP report says that we must consider have given NHS England until the end of July to come the broader impact of any changes beyond the narrow back with that timetable. question of children’s heart surgery, so I am sure that that is one of the lessons that will be learned. Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): The Health Secretary is absolutely right that parents in Several hon. Members rose— my constituency have found this process deeply destabilising. Although they also want to see quality, they felt that Mr Speaker: Order. On the assumption that Dr Lee their concerns about building up a good relationship has now put his phone away, may I say to Members that with their medical teams and about accessibility and they should not stand to speak while at the same time co-located services were simply dismissed. Will the Health fiddling with a phone? It is multi-tasking in a way that is Secretary assure me that that will not be the case in the perhaps a tad discourteous. We do, however, want to future, and will he look more closely at the networking hear from Dr Lee, who is a distinguished physician, so solution we have in Oxford and Southampton, which let us hear from him. strikes a good balance between having a quality site further away and providing aftercare in an accessible Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): My apologies, site with trusted medical teams? Mr Speaker. As someone who has long argued for the reconfiguration of acute and surgical services, I consider Mr Hunt: That is a very interesting thought. My hon. the management of this clinical consolidation to be of Friend will be pleased to note that the IRP report states great importance. Does the Secretary of State agree that that the whole care pathway, not just the surgery on its best clinical outcomes should be the primary driver of own, needs to be considered when we make this very any reconfiguration and that there is a need for a difficult decision. I agree with her that this has been a national plan for the reconfiguration of all acute and very distressing process for every family involved and emergency services? If such a plan were drawn up, it although we are suspending the process today, we have should receive cross-party support. a responsibility to be honest with people. At the end of the process, there will be a difficult decision to take and Mr Hunt: May I commend my hon. Friend, because we will honestly do our duty as Members of this House. he is one of the few Members of this House who has been prepared to campaign for changes in acute services Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): I know in his own constituency, which might not necessarily be that all the families of children affected throughout what his constituents would want? He has shown Yorkshire will welcome today’s statement from the Secretary considerable bravery on this issue. I will mention his of State. Will he reassure the House that any future idea of a national plan for acute and emergency services review panel, following whatever timetable he decides, to Sir Bruce Keogh, who is carrying out the review of will comprise representatives fairly and equally chosen emergency services as part of the vulnerable older people from all the centres that will be affected by any decisions? plan. We definitely need to have a different national Secondly, what assurances can he give that rather than approach to service reconfigurations. the data used in flawed reports, such as the now infamous National Institute for Cardiovascular Outcomes Research John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): What a 8 April report on mortality data in children’s heart waste of everybody’s time. Why should anyone believe surgery units, we will use data that are consistent and that the new review process will be better than the last reliable? one or that the Secretary of State will make decisions at 353 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 354 the end of it? Will he apologise now to the parents, the services which will also have to be moved? The Secretary families and the staff for allowing this flawed and of State is completely right on this issue and many failing process to go on for so long and for the anguish others: we do not need a quick solution; we need the that they have suffered during it? right solution.

Mr Hunt: I think we have been having a constructive Mr Hunt: I agree with my hon. Friend, but I would discussion about an extremely difficult issue, in which I actually like a solution that happens as quickly as hope I have spoken for the whole House in saying that possible, provided the process is done properly. He will there are things that we need to learn on all sides, as the be pleased to know that the IRP report does say that the earliest signs went back as far as 1984 and still, in 2013, impact of suspending the review and thinking again we have not been able to make the progress we should. should be borne in mind in respect of decisions that It is important that we maintain that bipartisan approach, have already been made as to the siting of ECMO because at the end of this process there will be difficult services, and I know that NHS England will be reflecting decisions to make and we need to maintain public on that. confidence that we are thinking about this in a non-party- political way. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does the Secretary of State appreciate the sheer difficulty in Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I think I can hear the respect of recruitment, retention, planning and maintenance cheers in Leeds as I speak. May I put on the record my of an excellent service that has been incurred by the thanks to the IRP and to my right hon. Friend the units affected, particularly the one in Southampton? Is Secretary of State for listening to our concerns in a very he prepared to look at the possibility of providing difficult situation? These findings clearly vindicate what additional resources to those trusts affected to enable we have been saying all along, but as we move forward them to maintain those excellent services during a continued will he agree to meet me and clinicians to maximise period of uncertainty? Not only is it a continued period confidence in the future review? Will he assure us that of uncertainty, but there has been continued oscillation co-location of services, accessibility and patient experience between near certainty, uncertainty, no certain and are paramount and that all units will have the same possible certainty as a result of this interminable review scrutiny as the one in Leeds has undergone? May I and the way it has been conducted. invite him to visit the unit in Leeds, so that he can meet the patients, families and staff with whom it has been Mr Hunt: I actually agree with the hon. Gentleman; my privilege to work? one of the biggest casualties of the length of time it is taking to resolve this very difficult issue is morale at the Mr Hunt: I congratulate my hon. Friend on campaigning excellent children’s heart units that we have across this for children’s heart surgery in Leeds in an exemplary country, and recruitment is one of the biggest concerns way, and he deserves huge credit for the responsible in that regard. Resources are now allocated independently approach he has taken throughout. I would be delighted by NHS England, but I know that its priority is to to meet him and clinicians from Leeds. Many things ensure the safety of services. need to be learned, but his points about the importance of the patient experience, of clinical outcomes and of Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): May I thank the an impartial process in site selection, which is at the Secretary of State for his statement? Once he received heart of the concerns people had about this process, are the IRP report, he had little choice but to make this ones we need to reflect on very hard indeed. decision. I feel sure that it will be met with a deep sigh in Southampton, just because of the lack of certainty that Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): I welcome it now extends for the trust there. To what extent will the the statement that the right hon. Gentleman has made Safe and Sustainable process now be rolled back? How today. Notwithstanding the fact that we would all want far will it be rolled back? Is the number of centres now the best possible outcomes from this surgery, wherever back in the “not sure” box? As he has said, we still face it takes place, site selection or geography is a concern an incredibly difficult decision and there is still a reduction for us, for the health service and for patients and their in the number of centres—or is there? families, so can we make sure it is taken into account? If skills are seen to be weak in certain geographical areas Mr Hunt: There will be a reduction in the number of of the UK, we should improve those skills, not think centres at the end of this process, as is clear from what about moving people elsewhere. the IRP report says. It thinks we would have better outcomes for children if we concentrated surgery in Mr Hunt: The right hon. Gentleman makes an important fewer places, with more comprehensive facilities offered point. Site selection needs to be done by people who are in all those places. However, we need to get the process completely independent of any local interest in where right in order to get there. the surgery should happen. That is the crucial point we need to learn, but the point about skills is also important. Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of State for, and congratulate him on, his Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): decision. However, as an outsider I watched this process May I praise my right hon. Friend for his brave and descending into almost a medical beauty contest, with eminently sensible statement today on this most emotive comparing and deciding. Surely if we are rationalising of topics? However, will he assure the House that any the centres, the key starting point should be their placement future plans to remove children’s cardiac services from for the maximum benefit of the populations, the patients the Glenfield hospital in Leicester will take full account and the parents, not this business of who has the lowest of the world-leading extra corporeal membrane oxygenation mortality rate. Doctors can move, but populations cannot. 355 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 356

Mr Hunt: The answer is this needs to be a mix of Mr Hunt: I completely accept what the hon. Lady both; this needs to be about clinical excellence and says, and obviously transport and access do matter; that issues such as accessibility and travel. A wide range of comes out in the IRP report. However, we have to be factors are involved. I accept, and this is widely accepted, honest about the fact that if we are conducting surgery that it is particularly difficult with specialist services to at fewer sites, the end result is that some people in the interpret mortality rates in a meaningful way, but that country will have to travel further than they currently does not mean we should not look at them and seek to do. That is why this is such a difficult decision. She will learn what we can. understand that a choice has to be made in that respect. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Last Saturday I David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): My right hon. attended the funeral of a girl, with my wife and my Friend’s statement will have given great hope to all daughter Delphine. The girl was a 16-year-old in my those in and around Leicestershire who campaigned to daughter’s class. A month ago, she suddenly dropped keep Glenfield hospital, and we welcome the acceptance dead. She had not been aware of any problem. Arabella that the original site selection was flawed and the implicit Campbell was a beautiful, highly intelligent, vivacious acceptance of bias against the east midlands and against girl who had everything to live for, and nothing was the east of the country in general. On a positive note, if known about her problem. Can Arabella’s death, and we are going to have the clinical case for change accepted the death of hundreds of other children and young and consolidation in the future, what is his understanding adults, be used as a spur to reinvigorate the NHS of the number of lives that would be saved if we have to campaign to identify young people who may suffer a go through this painful process? heart attack as a result of a problem that has not been detected before, difficult as that may be? Mr Hunt: I do not want to pluck a number out of the air; I want to listen to the clinical evidence on that. Mr Hunt: I know that the whole House will want to However, it is important to say that as a result of the send its condolences to Arabella Campbell’s family, and excess mortality identified at Bristol the Kennedy report the way that my hon. Friend has brought the issue to said that up to 170 lives could have been saved over a the attention of the House shows the seriousness of the 10-year period in just one location. That is why it is so issues that we are considering. Part of what the IRP important that we get this decision right. talks about is a proper review of the screening process for people who have congenital heart failure. Yesterday Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Secretary of State I met a group of campaigners on sudden adult death is right to say that, sadly, the process did not have the syndrome who had an equally tragic story, and I am confidence of the public. I very much welcome his waiting for advice from the national immunisation and statement. In moving forward, will he ensure that any screening committee on the right way forward in this data used are independent, transparent and credible, respect. I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. and that patient experience and access are given the Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Clinicians right priority in the decision making? at Glenfield hospital, and people across Leicester and the wider east midlands, will welcome what the Secretary Mr Hunt: Those are all things that the IRP talked of State said today on the suspension of Safe and about in its review, and I very much accept its Sustainable, but I want to ask him a further question on recommendations in those areas. the point that the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) made about the future Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate of the extra corporeal membrane oxygenation centre. the Secretary of State on calling in the Independent The decision to move ECMO from Leicester to Birmingham Reconfiguration Panel, which has successfully exposed was a direct consequence of Safe and Sustainable. That this shambles. I imagine that my constituents strongly decision is now suspended—I hope that is what the suspect that the thick end of the £6 million cost of the Secretary of State is saying. Will he reconfirm that the exercise has gone on fat fees for management consultants. future of ECMO provision will be fully taken into Given that the IRP concludes that there was flawed account by NHS England? analysis and too many questions left unanswered, surely those management consultants should be banned from Mr Hunt: I can confirm that. One of the taking part in any further NHS reviews? recommendations of the review was that the ECMO decision be linked to what is decided under Safe and Sustainable, and I know that NHS England will want to Mr Hunt: If there are management consultants consider that carefully. I hope to be able to come back responsible for what went wrong, I am sure that the to the House to report what it decides as soon as NHS will make the appropriate conclusions. possible. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My Cleethorpes am pleased to hear that care pathways as a whole will be constituency is on the very edge of the area served by looked at and given consideration. Will the Secretary of the Leeds unit, and I particularly welcome the State confirm, as he made clear in response to a number acknowledgement that future investigations will consider of questions, that the genuine concerns of constituents, geography, but as well as feeling isolated geographically, including mine in Hull, will be listened to? Transport many of my constituents felt somewhat isolated from and access are very important to my constituents because the whole process. We do not want to prolong the of the city’s geographical location. Whoever makes process unnecessarily, but will the Secretary of State these decisions should fully understand the geography assure me that there will be some mechanism allowing of the country and be able to make a proper decision. input from individual constituents? 357 Children’s Heart Surgery12 JUNE 2013 Children’s Heart Surgery 358

Mr Hunt: I can absolutely give that assurance. The him for taking on board the need for more focus on fact that the engagement with the public in this process access. In the future, I recommend that more money was not as genuine as it should have been is one of the and time be spent working with members of review biggest lessons for the NHS to learn. panels, because about a year and a half ago, when MPs met them, it was clear that some of them were out of Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) their depth. It would do everybody a lot of good if we (Lab): Two years ago, almost to the day, we debated the spent more money and time helping them. issue in the House. I said at the time, and reiterate today, that the issue must be resolved as quickly as Mr Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend, and I am sure that possible to end the damaging delay and uncertainty, that lesson will be learned. and to secure the safety of children and the best clinical care for them. The Secretary of State has given a variety Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I very much welcome of reassurances, but I would like to hear a cast-iron the Secretary of State’s statement, as will concerned reassurance, for my constituents, that in any future families across my constituency of York Outer, and decision, clinical expertise and care will be paramount, across the county of Yorkshire. Will he ensure that the and that this will be resolved as quickly as possible. new review recognises that units where paediatric and maternity services are located on a single site offer the Mr Hunt: I am very happy firmly to give both those optimal patient experience? assurances. Mr Hunt: I think we need to be guided by the clinical Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The Health evidence in that respect, but I urge my hon. Friend and Secretary is absolutely right to push ahead with his constituents, if they have a strong representation to specialisation in cardiology services. I represent one of make in that respect, to make it to the review when it the most rural constituencies in England, and I thank re-proceeds. 359 12 JUNE 2013 360 Point of Order Opposition Day 1.27 pm [2ND ALLOTTED DAY] Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Apologies for my over-eagerness just after Prime Minister’s questions. Protecting Children Online Last night, the Labour party did not submit the motion for today’s debate until about 7 o’clock in the evening. Do you not think that is a gross discourtesy to the 1.28 pm House? It does not allow Members time to prepare and Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I beg to reorganise their schedules. What can you do, through move, your office, to encourage the Labour party to get its act together and get its motions in on time? That this House deplores the growth in child abuse images online; deeply regrets that up to one and a half million people have seen such images; notes with alarm the lack of resources Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for available to the police to tackle this problem; further notes the his point of order. To be fair, I think that the motion correlation between viewing such images and further child abuse; was in on time, to use his words. However, I note what notes with concern the Government’s failure to implement the he says, and I think others will have noted it. Obviously, recommendations of the Bailey Review and the Independent it is helpful to the House to have maximum notice of Parliamentary Inquiry into Online Child Protection on ensuring these things, so that people who wish to table amendments children’s safe access to the internet; and calls on the Government to set a timetable for the introduction of safe search as a default, have the opportunity to do so. I emphasise that nothing effective age verification and splash page warnings and to bring disorderly has occurred, but the hon. Gentleman has forward legislative proposals to ensure these changes are speedily drawn attention to his concern in his characteristically implemented. rumbustious fashion. The motion is in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband). The whole country was shocked and revolted by the trials of Mark Bridger and Stuart Hazell, the two men who brutally murdered April Jones and Tia Sharp. They sent a shiver of horror down the spine of every parent in the land. In both cases, they were found to have huge libraries of child abuse images on their computers. In both cases, this was the first known offence against children. Surely it is now beyond doubt that what a person sees influences how they behave. Let us be clear: there is no such thing as child pornography. There is child abuse online. Any image depicting a sexual act with or on a child under 18 is illegal. Child abuse images are illegal under international law and in every country on the globe. The Internet Watch Foundation is the UK hotline for reporting child abuse. It has pioneered this work since 1996. It can disrupt and delete content on the web within an hour and it protects child victims by working in co-operation with the police at the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. It also aims to prevent people from stumbling across such images. We all owe an immense debt of gratitude to the IWF. However, the surge in the scale of the problems threatens to overwhelm both the IWF and the police. The IWF’s independent survey by ComRes found that up to 1.5 million people have stumbled on child abuse images, yet last year the IWF received only 40,000 notifications and some 13,000 web pages were taken down as a result. Its latest figures show a 40% rise on last year.

Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I support the hon. Lady’s opening words. I declare an interest as an IWF champion; the IWF does great work. Does she accept that her figure of 1.5 million people having seen child pornography is based on a sample of 2,000 people, of whom about 50 said that they seen such images? We do not know how much people have seen, or if they have seen anything. To extrapolate that far may be misleading. 361 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 362

Helen Goodman: Yes; I discussed the numbers with offences. What do Ministers intend to do about the the IWF, of course. It says that the survey on which it problem? I hope that in his winding-up remarks the based that estimate was typical of surveys it has been Home Office Minister will tell us. There is no point doing over several years, so I think the problem is huffing and puffing about the problem if Ministers do widespread and that we should not argue too much. It is not take the necessary action. It is obvious to the whole clear that the numbers are far, far too big. country that the current situation is totally unacceptable. Up to 88% of the child victims appear to be 10 years It is obvious that Ministers have not got a grip. It is old or under, and 61% of the images depicted sexual obvious that we need a change. activity between adults and children, including rape That is why our motion proposes a complete shift in and sexual torture. approach from a reactive stance to a proactive strategy. We are calling for three things—first, safe search as the Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): Google is one of the default option. The industry has already made the biggest hosts of child sexual abuse images, albeit filters that are needed to screen out not just child abuse inadvertently, and it should therefore accept the major but pornography and adult content generally. We are responsibility for proactively monitoring and removing saying that the filters should be the default, either on all those images. Does my hon. Friend agree that if Google computers and devices connected to the internet or by spent as much money on monitoring and removing requiring internet service providers to install them by illegal child sexual abuse images as it does on paying default. Then we can institute the second part of an accountants to avoid tax in the UK, it might go some effective system: robust age verification. A person seeking way towards living up to its motto, “Don’t be evil”? to cross the filter would be asked to confirm their name, age and address, all of which can be independently Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend makes a good checked. Again, we know that this works. It is what point. By a happy co-incidence I received an e-mail at Labour did for gambling sites in 2005. It is what mobile 12.35 pm announcing that Google is increasing its phone companies do when someone opens an account contribution to the IWF to £1 million. and gets a SIM card. It is what people do when they get a driving licence. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): My hon. Friend spoke about the number of reported cases. As an Dr Huppert: Does the hon. Lady accept that if we Internet Watch Foundation champion, I went into every had safe search and such controls, young people would one of my primary schools, spoke to the 10 and 11-year-olds not be able either to access information about homophobic at every one of those schools, and asked those children bullying, about how to deal with child abuse and about how many of them had seen indecent images online. a range of other subjects? Indeed, such things are Every child in every class had been exposed to such already filtered out by mobile phone providers, to the material. Is that not a national disgrace? great detriment of many children.

Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend is obviously doing Helen Goodman: No, I do not accept that. I shall go great work in her constituency and what she says is truly on to explain why that is a misconception on the part of shocking. It is confirmed by the statistics which the the hon. Gentleman. NSPCC has been collecting. The approach that we are suggesting would cut demand for sites as well as reducing the supply of them. It would Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Reference tackle child abuse online and the other major issue has been made to Google. I do not defend that or any addressed by the Bailey review and the independent other search engine other than to say that this debate is parliamentary inquiry—children accessing unsuitable highly technical and we need to be accurate. Google material online. In recent days I have had the benefit of does not host anything; nor does any other search energetic lobbying from Google in particular, pressing engine. Google merely provides the means of finding a its view that except for child abuse images, which are site, and the hosting, which is an international problem, illegal, all other images should be available unfiltered needs to be addressed appropriately. on the internet. I have heard its views and come to my own conclusion. Helen Goodman: This is not an occasion for nit- I hope the Government’s vacillation on this point is picking—[Interruption.] It is important to take an not because they cannot put children before powerful international approach and I am disappointed in the vested interests. I say safe search filters are not a free Government for, among other things, not taking any speech issue. This is not censorship. This is about child international initiatives. protection and reproducing online the conditions established The police say their resources are inadequate to the over a long period in the real world. task. Peter Davies, the head of CEOP, said that the Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Is my police are aware of 60,000 people swapping or downloading hon. Friend aware of the Council of Europe One in images over peer-to-peer networks but they lack the Five campaign, which is built on the fact that one in five resources to arrest them all. In any case, the IWF children across Europe is likely to be a victim of sexual currently deals only with images on the web, not peer-to-peer violence? Does she agree that the magnitude of sexual images. violence is enormously inflamed by the open gateway of In answer to my parliamentary question last week, internet child abuse? the Minister of State, Home Department, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) revealed that Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend makes a powerful in 2012, despite the fact that the police are aware of point. Once again, he emphasises the importance of the those 60,000 people, only 1,570 were convicted of such international dimension. 363 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 364

[Helen Goodman] talking and much less action. After three years and two Secretaries of State, the Government still seem to think What we are proposing is aimed at reproducing the that a voluntary approach will work. Do they not know conditions that we have already established in the real when they are being strung along, or do they not care? world. The distinction between legal and illegal content How many more years must we wait? How many child is far too simplistic. For cinemas we have the highly deaths will it take to shock them into action? respected independent British Board of Film Classification. Let us look at the record. First, the Prime Minister It produces age ratings—12, 15 or 18. Any cinema set up the Bailey review, which reported in June 2011. It found to be regularly flouting the age restrictions would recommended that after 18 months the internet industry lose its local authority licence. Furthermore, material must, as a matter of urgency, act decisively to develop classified as R18 can be seen only in certain cinemas, and introduce effective parental controls—with Government and some material deemed obscene is cut entirely. Yet regulation if voluntary action is not forthcoming within on the internet it is all freely accessible to every 12-year-old. a reasonable time scale—and robust age verification. Indeed—this relates to what my hon. Friend the Member But here we are, fully two years on, and nothing has for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) said a moment ago—the changed. Contrary to the answer I received from the NSPCC believes that one quarter of nine to 16-year Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member olds have seen sexual images online. We are not talking for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), who is in his about young women baring their breasts—that is like place, the fact is that BT, Sky and Virgin are yet to come something from Enid Blyton compared with the forward to announce their proposals on how they intend Frankenstein images now available. to deliver. The dangers are clear. On average, 29% of nine to Then we had the independent parliamentary inquiry 16-year-olds have contact online with someone they into child protection online, an all-party group. It have never met face to face. Of course there is a real recommended an accelerated implementation timetable, difference between child abuse online and extreme a formal consultation on the introduction of an opt-in pornography, but unfortunately in the real world people content filtering system, and that the Government should who become addicted to pornography look for more seek back-stop legal powers to intervene should the and more extreme images, and that sometimes tips into ISPs fail to implement an appropriate solution. A year child abuse images. Addiction is the issue. Users are later, no solution has been implemented. Why did the found to have literally millions of images on their Government not introduce a communications Bill with computer, and child abuse sites are signposted on appropriate measures in the Queen’s Speech? pornography sites. Both are shared peer to peer. Finally, last autumn the Government undertook a Therefore, an effective age verification system would consultation. It was so badly advertised that 68% of mean that paedophiles would lose the anonymity behind respondents were members of the Open Rights Group, which they currently hide, and the denial of what they an important group, but a lobbying group with are really doing would be addressed by the third proposal 1,500 members, compared with the 34% of respondents in the motion, which is to have splash warnings before who were parents of Britain’s 11 million children. Despite entering filtered sites. Work by Professor Richard Wortley that, the Government concluded that parents did not at University College London suggests that that might want to see parental controls turned on by default. halve the numbers viewing child abuse online. The Government have zig-zagged back and forth but Of course, those measures would have a cost to we have seen no action in the real world. The Secretary industry. TalkTalk, which has led the way in offering of State has called a meeting with industry representatives filters, has spent over £20 million. Some in the industry next week. What will she say to them? I hope that she tell us that they do not want to lose their competitive will not engage in yet another round of fruitless pleas edge, and some say that they do not want to act as and requests. There is a total lack of strategy from the censors. That is why the Government should act by Department for Culture, Media and Sport. putting a clear timetable for those reforms into law in I want to make an offer to the Under-Secretary of order to speed up change, level the playing field and State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member support parents. We know that most parents want to do for Wantage (Mr Vaizey): if he brings forward measures, what is right by their children, because 66% of people, with a speedy timetable, for the introduction of safe and 78% of women, want an automatic block, according search as a default, robust age verification and splash to a YouGov poll conducted last year, but the industry warnings, we will support him. I gather that Ministers is not helping them enough. At the moment, some still are urging their colleagues to vote against the motion. It require people to download their own filters—a near- is time that the Government stopped hoping that everything impossible task for many of us—some see it as a marketing will turn out for the best and started taking responsibility. device, and others want to give the option of filters only The time for talking is over. The time for action is now. to new customers. At the current rate of turnover, it We must put our children first. I hope that all hon. would be 2019 before that approach had any hope of Members will vote for the motion in the Lobby this reaching total coverage. It simply is not good enough. afternoon. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) wish to intervene? 1.46 pm Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con) indicated dissent. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The House Helen Goodman: So what have the Government been finds itself today debating an incredibly important issue, doing? Before the general election, the Prime Minister and one that has risen in prominence because of the promised that he would lead the most family-friendly worst of circumstances. The hon. Member for Bishop Government ever, but so far there has been lots of Auckland (Helen Goodman) referred at the beginning 365 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 366 of her speech to the dreadful murders of Tia Sharp and This involves the complex issue of how the IWF April Jones, which shocked the nation and saddened all works with the Child Exploitation and Online Protection who read about them. They reinforce the need to take Centre. We have to clear the lines on that. The hon. action and maintain vigilance. Member for Bishop Auckland referred to international This Government, and indeed the previous Government, work. We, as a Government, support the Global Alliance take the continued availability of child sexual abuse against Child Sexual Abuse Online, which covers more images online extremely seriously. If I heard the hon. than 40 countries. Both CEOP and the IWF work Lady correctly, she said that we should not refer to this internationally, and it is extremely important to focus as child pornography. She is quite right: it is child abuse, on that work. We can be proud of our success in this child torture and child rape. The creation of these regard, but, as she rightly points out, the problem images is abuse against a child, and that child is further remains one of images posted abroad. violated every time the image is circulated and viewed by others. That is why the creation, distribution and Geraint Davies: Does the Minister agree that images viewing of child sexual abuse images is strictly prohibited of women being raped in pornography should also be in this country, and why we take action to stop it. We illegal and banned from the internet? must take every possible step to prevent their production and distribution over the internet. Mr Vaizey: The Ministry of Justice and the Home We must work together on that. We must recognise Office are looking very closely at that issue, which has that that means using industry, law enforcement and the been debated recently. It is right that my colleagues in charitable sector. I think that we have made considerable the relevant Departments look to see what action it is progress. Let me start by talking about the Internet appropriate to take. Watch Foundation. Before the IWF was established in CEOP works with UK police forces, which carry out 1996, this country hosted around 18% of the known excellent work in tracking down and arresting the owners child sexual abuse content on the internet, which is of sites within the UK and rescuing and safeguarding absolutely shocking. Since 2003, the IWF, working with the children who are subject to abuse. We will continue industry, has reduced that figure to less than 1%. We to support and promote the work of CEOP.It is important fully support and welcome the work done by the internet to note that the number of people working there has industry in the UK, which uses a list provided by the increased from 85 in 2010 to 130 now. CEOP is now a IWF to block images of child sexual abuse. Blocking command within the National Crime Agency, and this has a real and tangible benefit, as it stops people will build on its success and allow it to work closely with inadvertently viewing the images and stops paedophiles other commands to ensure that children continue to be arguing that they found the images accidentally. safeguarded. CEOP receives important support, in the The IWF has a crucial role to play in the removal of form of a skills resource, from the business sector, these images from the internet. At the summit that my including Microsoft, BAE Systems Detica and Visa, as right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has called for well as children’s charities such as the NSPCC. At next next week, we will discuss what further measures we can week’s summit we will discuss what further resources we take. It is right and proper that we look at the role and can bring to bear for CEOP, especially in terms of funding levels of the IWF, and at what more the industry support from businesses that can bring particular skill can do in terms of its role and scope. sets to help it to carry out its work. As I said, we will also discuss with CEOP its close co-operation and work with the IWF. Mrs Moon: The IWF does a fantastic job, but it can only do as good a job as the referrals it receives. When I Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I am pleased speak to parents and children in my constituency, they to hear the Minister being positive about the proposal do not know what to do. Often, the advice given to by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West children is “Turn the computer off.” That will not help (Geraint Davies). I hope that the summit will be a very us to track down images and stop them coming in in the productive discussion. End Violence Against Women first place. has come up with a specific proposal on how to tackle the production of so-called rape porn, both online and Mr Vaizey: I thank the hon. Lady for that contribution offline. Can the Minister confirm that that will also be and pay tribute to her for the work that she does on on next week’s agenda so that it can be talked through these issues in this House and throughout the country. with businesses and then inform the discussions between She is absolutely right. There is more we can do, and we the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice? need to look at a number of issues that will be raised at the summit next week. Mr Vaizey: We will certainly look at what we need to First, we need to discuss the funding of the IWF. I include on the agenda. The summit has to focus on note the £1 million contribution that Google has made what internet companies can do to help us to tackle not this afternoon. We will discuss with the IWF what kind only child abuse images but the exposure of children to of funding it needs and what funding needs to come online pornographic content. If there are comments to from the industry to help it to do the work that it needs be made that would inform the Ministry of Justice and to do. Secondly, we need to discuss the IWF’s role in the Home Office, we will make sure that that happens. peer-to-peer file-sharing. It is all very well, and absolutely We need to focus on closer co-operation between the right, to clamp down on and block the sites that host IWF and CEOP and on resource from industry to help these vile and disgusting images, but we need to do the IWF to do its work. There should be greater focus more work on the activities of peer-to-peer networks on peer-to-peer networks, and a clear strategy to increase where people are sharing them. our international work, which is already taking place. 367 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 368

[Mr Vaizey] online. In October 2011, under the auspices of UKCCIS, and under this Government, the internet As the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said, there service providers developed a voluntary code of practice is a clear distinction between illegal child abuse images on the implementation of internet parental controls. A and age-inappropriate content. year on, the biggest four internet providers met their commitment to offer parental internet controls to new Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I must apologise customers. Now, in a further step, the biggest five have because I am speaking in a Welsh Grand Committee committed to delivering whole home, network-level parental later and will miss part of this debate, which is particularly control tools by the end of this year. That will allow important to my constituency and has become hugely parents to set, with one click, parental controls on all important to me due to the impact in Montgomeryshire devices in the home. following what has happened. I hope that my hon. When we began these discussions with ISPs, they told Friend agrees that Coral and Paul Jones, the parents of us that that was not technically possible, so we have April Jones, should have an opportunity to express their moved a huge way forward. Making it easier for parents views to Government at one level; we need to discuss to block adult and age-restricted material was a Bailey exactly where it should be. recommendation and that has been achieved. Network-level Mr Vaizey: I absolutely hear what my hon. Friend filters for domestic broadband was also a recommendation says and will happily discuss with him what he thinks of the independent parliamentary inquiry into online should be the appropriate way of ensuring that that child protection. takes place. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The Minister has In protecting our children from online pornography, highlighted the success with the five ISPs. How does the Government are making a huge effort to minimise that compare with agreements reached in other countries the harm that is caused by being exposed to age- in Europe and the United States? inappropriate content. As the Minister with responsibility for the communications sector, I see the headlines that Mr Vaizey: We can hold our heads high as being far call for greater action from our biggest internet companies. more advanced than many other countries around the I support those calls. We want more action because world. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with there are few more important issues than protecting details of what other countries are doing and where we children as they interact online. Let us be clear: the rank compared with them. It is also important to point internet can be an amazing force for good. However, out that those five ISPs cover the vast majority of information available on the internet can also drive customers using the internet at home. harm. Mobile phone operators, internet service providers, search engines and social media companies do act to The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said that we protect children online, and I will come to some of the have not implemented the recommendations of the measures that have been developed through Government Bailey review, but I remind her that this Government set and industry co-operation. up that review because of this Prime Minister’s passion to protect children from the sexualisation of society. As Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) Reg Bailey himself said in his recently published review (Lab): The Minister refers to age-inappropriate online of progress: pornography. Does he really understand what children “I have been pleased to see that many parts of industry have as young as eight are viewing, does he know that the risen to the challenge” average age of a young man viewing hard-core porn and that good progress has been made against his online has dropped to eight, and is he aware of the recommendations. social and psychological harm that stems from viewing Bailey called for greater transparency in the regulatory those types of images? framework through the creation of a single website for Mr Vaizey: It is really important during this debate to regulators. ParentPort, launched in 2011, is a single make the point that everyone wants to see what we can website, created by media regulators, through which do to minimise this harm. It is not appropriate to parents can complain about inappropriate material. suggest that Ministers are not aware of the issues and Bailey also called for a reduction in on-street advertising do not want to act. [Interruption.] Nor is it appropriate containing sexualised imagery that is likely to be seen to heckle me as I come on to setting out the points that I by children, and the Advertising Standards Authority am here to set out. We need to work across Parliament. has issued guidelines on the use of such images in Members of the public will want to see cross-party outdoor advertising. He also recommended restricting action to tackle these issues. the employment of children as brand ambassadors and ensuring that magazines and newspapers with sexualised Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) images on the cover are not sold in easy sight of (Lab): What are you going to do, then? children and that the content of pre-watershed TV programming better meets parents’ expectations. Mr Vaizey: I will tell the hon. Lady what I am going Those recommendations and others have been met. to do if she stops heckling me from the Front Bench. Of course, that is not to say that every recommendation This is the kind of conduct that the Opposition seek to has been met in full. There is still work to do on, for bring to the debate. example, online music videos. Since 2008, the UK Council for Child Internet Safety, set up by the previous Government, has brought together Stella Creasy: The Bailey review also pointed out industry, charities, law enforcement and academia to that, as much as we must try to adapt to many of the focus on developing measures to keep children safe ways in which technology is changing, no filter or 369 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 370 technology can compensate for parents and teachers Mr Vaizey: The hon. Member for Perth and North giving positive examples. Yesterday the House had an Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is not in his place, opportunity to make sure that sensitive discussion of pointed out how late this motion came to the House. As issues such as sexual consent, equality and respect in I have said, it is hard to support a motion that claims relationships was on the agenda, so is the Minister that the police lack resources when I have already disappointed that his Government voted against putting pointed out that CEOP has significantly increased its sexual consent in the curriculum in a way that would manpower; that claims that the Government have failed allow young people to get training and advice on how to to implement the Bailey review when I have already tackle these issues and let us build a filter in their heads pointed out how many of the recommendations we about them, too? have introduced; and that claims that we have not supported the independent parliamentary inquiry when Mr Vaizey: This issue was debated fully in the House we supported it from the start and have followed a lot of yesterday and there are two Education Ministers present— its recommendations. the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) The Opposition can decide whether they want to play and my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary. As politics with this issue or whether they want to have a the hon. Lady knows, sex and relationships education is serious debate about how to make progress. They cannot compulsory in secondary schools. We trust teachers, table a tendentious motion such as this and expect us to who are best placed to provide the appropriate advice, support it. What I am doing in this speech—and what guidance and support to children in their schools. Teachers other Government Members will do in theirs—is raising who teach sex education follow the statutory guidance and addressing important issues, as some Opposition laid out by the Education Secretary, but we do not Members have done, and saying what the Government believe it is right to remove the ability of parents to are doing. withdraw their children from sex education at any key stage, as the Opposition advocate. Claire Perry: Does my hon. Friend share my almost despair that, while some Members present, such as the Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): hon. Members for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for Swansea Does my hon. Friend recognise that in sex and relationships West (Geraint Davies) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen education, particularly in primary schools, more guidance Goodman), have been intimately involved in this agenda needs to be given on the age-appropriateness of the for two and a half years, others who are heckling and material? I know that he has already taken some steps shouting from a sedentary position have, to be frank, to improve that, but what more can he do to make sure shown no interest whatsoever in this topic until it became that children receive age-appropriate information? a front-page issue? Working together will solve the problem. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue, terrible and dangerous example of bandwagonism? which she has campaigned on in this House. I pay tribute to her for the work she has done. We are introducing Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend is an authority on this classification not just for music videos, but for DVDs issue and she has shown, throughout her engagement used in schools for sex education. I will continue to have with it, her willingness to work across party lines and to a dialogue with my hon. Friend on other appropriate look for practical solutions that will help keep our measures. [Interruption.] The sneezing of the hon. Member children safe. I hope that Opposition Members will for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) is appropriate, because listen to what she has just said and take it on board. she was a member of the panel for the independent parliamentary inquiry into online child protection—as Geraint Davies: Does the Minister agree—I know was the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland—to which I that the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) supports now turn. me in this—that credit card companies should be made I praise my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes accountable and perhaps face penalties if they are complicit (Claire Perry). My involvement in these important issues in the downloading of child abuse images through started with an Adjournment debate that she had secured, online transactions, particularly those under £50 that during which I said that I wanted to hold discussions can be facilitated by anonymous credit cards that can be and work with her to make progress. She decided that it accessed by children as well? Does he agree that the was appropriate to set up an inquiry, which had my full Government need to bring credit card companies to support and which, I am pleased to say, was a cross-party account and stop this abuse? inquiry, with Members from all the main parties on its panel. Since my hon. Friend set up that parliamentary Mr Vaizey: That is very important. As I have mentioned, inquiry, not only has it come up with some sensible Visa plays a role with CEOP. No credit card company recommendations, which I will turn to in a moment, but would say that it was actively encouraging or supporting I am also delighted that she has been appointed as the people to download images of child abuse. If the hon. Prime Minister’s adviser. Although I pay tribute to Gentleman has specific examples, he should bring them many hon. Members, I am sure that most would agree to my attention. The credit card companies have an that my hon. Friend has taken a fantastically prominent important and helpful role to play on this issue and role in this debate, that she has moved it forward in many others, including piracy, and we must continue to leaps and bounds and that she is a fantastic advocate work with them. for more action in this area. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): The Minister is making some interesting points, but will he clarify will know that many Members from all parts of the whether the Government intend to support the Opposition House have been interested in online safety for young motion? people for a long time. Does he agree that it is slightly 371 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 372

[Heidi Alexander] The summit that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport has called next week is an important perverse that this country has legislation that gives staging post. I pay tribute to everyone in the House who courts the power to order ISPs or websites to remove has campaigned on this issue, because they have pushed material that is defamatory or that contravenes copyright, it up the agenda. The people who can make a difference but no powers for the courts to deal with serious issues have been left in no doubt that no amount of weasel such as online child pornography or incitement to violence, words or hiding behind technical obfuscation will stop which have a devastating impact on people’s lives? this House taking the action that is needed to protect our children and clamp down on child abuse images. Mr Vaizey: Companies that use the law to block sites that support pirated material seek an injunction through Several hon. Members rose— pre-internet copyright law. As has always been the case, what is illegal offline is also illegal online. People can Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Many therefore use existing law to attack sites. As I have said, Members wish to speak, so I am introducing a time the Internet Watch Foundation does block access to limit of eight minutes. sites that host child abuse images. 2.15 pm Dr Huppert: The Minister is making a powerful case. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I usually open Does he agree that it is somewhat misleading to imply my remarks by saying that I am grateful to have the that we have no powers to deal with such sites? In 2012, opportunity to speak in a debate. Today, I do not have every one of the 73 UK webpages that hosted child that feeling. I raised my children in an age when we did pornography was removed within four days, and the not have to worry about the issues under discussion and vast majority within 60 minutes, of the IWF being when protecting children was far more straightforward, notified. but I am conscious that my grandchildren are growing up in a very different world. I congratulate the shadow Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I Culture, Media and Sport team for ensuring that we must make progress because a lot of people want to have the opportunity to discuss this matter. speak on this issue. I give credit, as many Members will, to the hon. We have responded to many of the recommendations Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) for her contribution. of the independent parliamentary inquiry. For example, However, I think that she should reflect on her remarks the report called for filtered public wi-fi. Through the about “bandwagonism”. This is the first time that I have UK Council for Child Internet Safety, the Government spoken in a debate on this issue. She does not know have secured a commitment from the main public wi-fi what personal experiences other Members of the House providers that they will offer family-friendly wi-fi in might have had that make it difficult for them to make public places where children are likely to use it. contributions on this issue, so she should be careful in I am conscious of the time, so I will wrap up with a her choice of words. I have worked with children who number of key points. On child abuse images, we will are victims of abuse, some of whom were subjected to work with the industry to secure appropriate funding pornographic images. Sadly, some of them even went for the IWF.We will work with the IWF on its peer-to-peer on to sexually harm other children. I should not have to and international work. We will also work with CEOP justify to her my right to stand here as a Member of and the IWF to ensure that their work is co-ordinated Parliament, a parent, a grandmother and someone who effectively. We have made huge progress on protecting has worked in child protection. children from inappropriate content online. New customers are now provided with filters that are in place when they Claire Perry: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. May I first access the internet. ISPs regularly contact existing extend the offer that has been open for almost three customers through e-mails and on their bills to tell them years to every Member of this House who feels that about internet filters. On age verification, ISPs are they can help push this agenda forward to please share bringing in closed-loop e-mails so that when the filters their experiences and be involved? Please do not make are changed in a home, an e-mail is sent to the account this a partisan issue, because when we do that, industry holder and, therefore, to the adult. I hear the point drives a bus through Parliament. That is what we must about splash pages and it is worth debating. It is important avoid. to analyse whether that would be an effective change. Fiona O’Donnell: I would have welcomed more of an I will make one wider point in conclusion. When I indication of regret from the hon. Lady at the words held a meeting with my hon. Friend the Member for that she used. If she had experience of working in child Devizes and other hon. Members some years ago, about protection, she would know that those words should be 80 Members turned up from across the political divide. used very carefully. All of them, from the über-libertarians to the ultra- authoritarians, wanted action. We have made progress. I welcome the Minister’s comment that this issue is The ISPs and others should be in no doubt about the about much more than just child protection and includes mood of this House. If not enough is done, legislation child abuse. Sadly, in this day and age, it is also a matter will be required. We must get the message across to of life and death. Fortunately, children can and do use them that this is not something on which they should the internet safely, and we must not lose sight of that. consider the competitive advantage, but something on Although I might not have been active on this issue in which they have to work together and co-operate. They the House, I have been in my constituency. Last Friday, must work together on issues such as publicity and I went to Burgh primary school in Musselburgh, where education for parents. the children recently took part in a competition to talk 373 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 374 about and devise ways of keeping themselves safe when The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty using the internet. That is a great example of how we to Children supports many of the recommendations in can empower children. I do not want children to be the motion, in particular having an opt-in option so frightened of using the internet. It is an incredible that adults must choose if they wish to access adult resource that allows them to socialise, learn, have fun material. That is the stage we have reached. I am no and access entertainment. We must be clear that we do Mary Whitehouse, but I think we have reached a stage where not want to put children off. At Burgh primary school, I so many children are at risk that we must do more. saw children being empowered to keep themselves safe. They even taught me a few lessons about how I could be Alun Cairns: I accept the hon. Lady’s thrust of where safer. The head teacher and Mrs Gilbert, who leads the we need to get to. However, with such a relatively IT group, have the children running the school website. simplistic approach to an opt-in, how would we overcome That is a great way to show children that the internet is encryption methods that would simply get around that? a tool that could be useful to them at any point in their life and, at the same time, to ensure that they are aware Fiona O’Donnell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman of the risks. for his intervention, but I confess that that is well beyond my level of knowledge. In this day and age we Ofcom recently released figures showing that 91% of must at least challenge the issue, and I am grateful that five to 15-year-olds have access to the internet at home. the Government have called a summit next week, which On average, they access the internet for about 90 minutes will be a great opportunity. I hope we give a clear steer a day. A survey of 851 young children in 2012 by the and that there will be time scales for internet service ChildLine website also provided some interesting providers as well. I confess freely to the hon. Gentleman information. It was clear that what children really enjoyed that I do not have the answer to his question, but we was the fun, games, information and opportunities for must set that challenge and tell the sector that it must social networking that they could access. What really get its house in order. It is clear that we must do more. concerned me, however—I hope the Minister or a Front- Not so long ago, we in this House took the decision Bench Member will respond to this point—was that the to make it illegal to carry a child in a car without them survey showed that 69% of children are now accessing being safely secured in an appropriate way. At this time the internet through mobile phones, making it far more I think there is a greater risk to children’s safety from difficult for parents to supervise what they are saying accessing the internet than from getting into a car, and and how they are interacting. I would be interested to if we can intervene in such circumstances that will be hear whether the Government have any proposals for absolutely in order. It is early in the debate but I am how we can deal with mobile phone companies and glad that so far we have not heard talk of the nanny keep children safe, given that that is the way they are state. We must act on this matter to keep children safe. increasingly accessing the internet. Mrs Moon: When I went into schools around Bridgend We all know horrific stories of bullying and of children I took two leaflets—one for parents and one for children— accessing inappropriate material, and I have seen first about staying safe online. They were seen by Dr Tanya hand through my work the impact that can have on Byron, and agreed with Google and local head teachers children’s lives, development and their ability to become so that the content was accurate. It was clear that parents. I remember one child saying to me, “Fiona, I parents did not have the technical savvy; their children don’t think I should be a parent.” He had suffered were wiser than them and knew how to remove the such horrific abuse and seen such awful images that at constraints, which is why we need such constraints put the age of 10, this boy did not think he should be in place by providers rather than by parents. Children trusted to be a parent. We are discussing the most can remove their parent’s constraints. serious issues of children’s right to a childhood and a healthy adulthood. Fiona O’Donnell: My hon. Friend makes an excellent We must do more to protect children, and this debate point; children are often well ahead of the adults who has caused me to reflect on an experience that I had are supervising them. I do not know whether the around the age of 16—this was before the age of computers, Government have any plans to involve children in certainly in the highlands of Scotland. I was getting the summit and this process. Children were part of the ready for bed one night and I suddenly caught sight out consultation, but what opportunities will the Government of my bedroom window of a flashing light. I realised provide to allow them to be part of the debate? When I there was a man in the kitchen that overlooked my went into a local primary school I found that the bedroom who had been watching me undress, and he children’s knowledge was well in advance of mine, and was flicking the light to let me know that he was doing from my experience as a parent I know that children can that. This is the first time I have ever shared that be canny in finding ways round things that we are experience, because at the age of 16 I was too scared to perhaps not aware of— tell anyone. I thought I had done something wrong; I was scared to tell my parents. My father had warned me Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. that I should shut my bedroom curtains when getting ready for bed, and I was scared that he might go down 2.25 pm and confront the man, or that my father—a very peace- Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I am grateful, as always, loving man—might be hurt. I just did not feel I could for the chance to speak in and listen to a debate in the do that, and I lived in fear for many months that the House on this incredibly important topic, and I will not man was going to approach me or tell people what he focus on the unfortunate partisan tone of some of the had seen. We must remember just how difficult it is for proposals. I would love to support the motion, and if it young people to tell their stories—it has taken me until had been better worded or perhaps more accurate it the age of 53 to tell that story. would have been easier to do so. 375 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 376

[Claire Perry] should be dealt with by the law. Paedophiles should be taken to prison and targeted by the police, working with I want to respond specifically to some of the criticisms internet service providers. My hon. Friend is doing the raised in the motion and refute them absolutely. Criticism right thing by looking at the issue carefully and in real has been made of the implementation of the Bailey detail. review recommendations, and those of the parliamentary inquiry in which I was joined by more than 60 Members Claire Perry: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that from across this House and from the other place we have two separate buckets. Some imagery is including—as I have said—two hon. Ladies from the unequivocally illegal, but we would find other imagery Labour Benches and several of my colleagues from the exceptionally unpalatable and not want our young people Government Benches. The inquiry came up with a to see it. Given that 88% of mainstream porn involves series of recommendations. In 2011, the Bailey review violence against women, we need to improve the filters recommended active choice in which parents have to to try to stop that coming into the home. choose whether they want filters, as well as more help Another recommendation of the cross-party inquiry for parents. The four main fixed-line internet service was that public wi-fi should be filtered. There is no need providers control 80% of the home internet market—this to see adult content on public wi-fi. That has been relates to a point raised earlier. They signed a code of implemented in the majority of cases and we are looking practice to offer such a filter, and said they would roll it for universal clean public wi-fi to be implemented later out within a year by October 2012. That deadline was this year. met, but as many Members will remember, a cross-party group of MPs and peers did not feel that it was adequate Ann Coffey: I, too, congratulate the hon. Lady on her or went far enough. work and on the huge contribution she has made. Has she had any discussions with the retail industry on Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I pay public wi-fi? great tribute to my hon. Friend who has championed this cause in the House, including in an Adjournment Claire Perry: I have not, but retailers source their debate back in November 2010, which also coincided wi-fi from a small number of providers, which have with the Safermedia conference. She has been raising agreed to provide what is effectively clean public wi-fi. the issue of harm related to pornography, and making the point that it is not just a fringe issue for one We asked the Government for a formal consultation campaign organisation but a concern shared across the on opt-in filtering and got it. As the hon. Member for House. That momentum has helped to drive these changes, Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) has rightly said, it which will continue, and we do not need to resort to is not clear that the consultation was entirely representative partisanship. and democratic. However, it was an open consultation and we did our damndest to encourage people to respond. Consultations are not always democratic, and that one Claire Perry: I came to this agenda as a mother, a was what it was. Basically, the consultation rejected the feminist and someone who is deeply concerned about idea of opt-in, but the Government response was clear the long-term social experiment we are conducting with that we should have much better filters that protect all our young children. The hon. Member for Slough (Fiona devices; robust age verification; and a system that people Mactaggart) said it was good that we had an atheist cannot simply click through, and in which the filters leftie on the panel as that helped balance out some of remain on unless people choose to take them off. the others, and it truly was a coalition of many minds coming together—I hope that will not be depicted in Those changes are being implemented by the four Hansard as an accurate description. main ISPs, which control more than 80% of the internet market to the home in the UK, and will be rolled out to Another recommendation of the cross-party inquiry new customers by the year end. was for internet service providers to introduce account filters that protect all devices in the home with one Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Lady click. Only four out of 10 parents in the country have give way? installed device-level protection of any sort on their home computers. That is completely unacceptable, but the situation is complicated. We all have multiple internet- Claire Perry: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I enabled devices and it is simply not good enough to say will try to make progress before taking another intervention. that consumers are stupid. We called on internet service In addition, as the Minister has said, the ISPs are providers to introduce one-click filtering on the home trialling ways in which to get the filter into the installed network, but as the Minister said, we were told by more base. The sea change in attitude among the ISPs—British than one ISP that that was technically impossible. Guess companies that are family-friendly trusted brands and what? They are all going to implement it by the end of want to sell us stuff—has been enormous. That is a the year as a testament to the ongoing campaigning of tribute to all hon. Members and Members of the other this House. place who have campaigned so hard. The change in the situation is like night and day. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Is the The second problem with the motion is that the call real problem with the motion a conflation between the for the Government to set a timetable for the introduction legal and the illegal, and is my hon. Friend worried of safe-search as a default is confusing. That is the same that those on the Opposition Front Benches are getting proposal as mandatory opt-in—it refers simply to Google this completely wrong? The hon. Member for Bishop SafeSearch functionality. The Internet Watch Foundation Auckland (Helen Goodman) tweeted that we should pointed out to me this morning that that proposal introduce filters for child abuse, but surely child abuse would only screen out material that is sexual in nature, 377 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 378 and that anyone seeking illegal child abuse imagery I encourage the hon. Lady to withdraw the motion, would simply switch it off. That is an important debate, to ask to come to the summit next week, and to build a but a slightly different one. cross-party consensus on the asks. That is how we will make progress and keep our children safe online. We are already focusing on age verification. The industry is testing much better age verification loops and splash pages. Splash pages alert people who are 2.36 pm searching for blocked content that it is illegal and John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I do not profess any damaging, and that they should go somewhere else to specific expertise, but if I have any, it is in relation to the look for help. There is widespread support for that work done on hate crime on the internet. I congratulate proposal on both sides of the House. the Minister on his work with us. I also congratulate his Should we legislate further? As the hon. Member for predecessors, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland knows, I am not at all averse to Barking (Margaret Hodge), and Barbara Follett, who is calling for legislation, but my sense is that, in this space, no longer a Member of the House, on their initiatives. it is not helpful. Let me explain why. To make protection All have been effective, and are appreciated. work, we need three things. First, we need committed I initiated a working group in the Inter-parliamentary politicians who are completely clear on the ask for Coalition for Combating Antisemitism two years ago. industry. Secondly, we need engaged companies. The We have managed to get senior executives for content hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) referred from most of the world’s biggest internet companies to to one problem with legislation. Children now access sit on the group, including executives from Apple, Google, the internet via mobile phone, but when the Bailey Facebook, PayPal, Microsoft and Twitter. We also have review came out in 2010, there was only one mention of one of the key interlocutors in the US on free speech, access to the internet via smartphone. The technological Professor Jeffrey Rosen, and, from the Ministry of world changes faster than we can possibly imagine. It is Justice, the seconded Association of Chief Police Officers a falsehood to say that clunky politicians and—forgive lead on hate crime, Paul Giannasi. me—civil servants can be ahead of that change, as A report has been produced—it has not yet been opposed to the companies that monetise that change. circulated, but will be in the next week in this country We have to get the companies engaged. Thirdly, we need and throughout the world—that the Minister and the to educate users—parents, grandparents and children— Government will find useful. The report is on the problem which is why I welcome what has been done in the of hate crime, but the problem is the same as online primary school curriculum to improve e-safety and protection of children in respect of the grey areas that digital safety. need to be tightened, the technical solutions and approaches, Therefore, it is depressing that the motion has been and the mindset in the industry. presented in a partisan way. We have a hugely productive Part of the problem the group has identified is the agenda in the House for the past two years by working shadow internet. It is fine setting up solutions, but if together. I believe that debates such as this one encourage that happens in separate countries, people will break industry to adopt a wait-and-see strategy, and to say, them if they want to—they have relatively easy ways to “Well look, the politicians cannot decide. Unless they do so. The debate so far has concentrated on websites make things illegal, we’re not going to engage.” That and search engines, but, in fact, even when it comes to has been the problem with the internet all along. The child abuse, gaming is as big a problem and a vastly industry has said, “We’ll wait till you tell us what is growing one. Texting, smartphones and social networking illegal, and that’s as much as we will do.” We must move are equally significant, growing and changing problems— beyond that situation, which we will do by working the modality is changing. together. The group makes six recommendations in the report on hate crime—they are relevant to the debate. The first I have one final point to make. The House will forgive recommendation is to create clear policies and include me if I come across as a politician—I do not want to be them within the terms of the service of the internet a politician on this issue; I want to be a pragmatist. Our company. That would be a significant change. The recommendations go so much further than the Byron working group has the key players and the decision recommendations, which were commissioned by the makers—they are not the sub-decision makers, but the Government of the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland. actual decision makers. That recommendation is achievable, Those recommendations used toothless language, did and it would be significant. not require any form of legislation, and were not well implemented. They were also based on a completely The second recommendation is for mechanisms to false ideology that default filters would lull parents into enforce those policies. How do intermediaries, including a false sense of security. There is no evidence of that, national Governments, enforce them? For international but the thought has permeated the debate for the past industries, the role of intermediaries, whether they are four years. Hon. Members can tell me if they believe specialist groups or national Governments, is a second that these two of the Byron recommendations are forward key principle in the approach that should be taken. thinking or appropriate, or whether they do more than The third and vital recommendation, which resonates what we have proposed. The first recommendation is with this debate, is to establish clear, user-friendly that search engines should make it easy to turn safe processes to allow users to report abuse. Those processes search on, and the second is that parents should be are not currently there, but they are achievable. If given free parental controls when they get a new internet mechanisms are in place, progress ought to be relatively connection. Our Government, with huge cross-party straightforward—far more straightforward in relation support, have done far more than that and made far to child abuse than hate speech, where issues of illegality more progress. are far more complex—where there is criminality. Clearly, 379 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 380

[John Mann] want terrorists using its platforms to kill people and it does not want paedophiles using their products to there are technical solutions—I will not go so far as to abuse children. That is obvious to me and it is also suggest the software that the CIA has recently, allegedly, obvious to the industry. used—if the processes are in place. The fourth recommendation is to increase transparency Geraint Davies: Some years ago when I first came about terms of service enforcement decisions: case studies. across Twitter, I tracked a few people who were following For example, if an individual is prosecuted because various trends and discovered an image of a man who someone has reported something that their child has had been beheaded. I wondered then about the extent stumbled across, the Government and other third parties to which Twitter could be used as a route into child have a critical role in how it will be reported and made abuse and what should be done about it. public. The fifth recommendation, which is probably specific John Mann: I am pleased to say that Twitter participates to hate speech, is to encourage counter-speech. It is the in the working group that I have managed to initiate. same concept as the splash concept. The issues are complex, but all these issues are complex. Last night, I went on to the internet using a mobile The sixth recommendation is to unite the industry. device to seek the speech made by the Rev. Leslie The industry will not always be American—with its Hardman when he went into Belsen concentration camp concepts of free speech—so it is critical to achieve in 1945. I was immediately content blocked. These agreement within the industry while it still is. issues are not all straightforward, but some outcomes are exceedingly obvious and straightforward. I put it to Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): the Minister that the industry and politicians have a If I can bring the hon. Gentleman back to the third mutual interest. That is the industry’s vulnerability. recommendation, he makes a good point about reporting Finding the tools to expose those who refuse to participate and taking down material. The IWF does a good job in properly and effectively is the key to real progress. If the that area. Apparently, last year 1.5 million adults came Minister united the industry around that in Europe, he across abusive content on the internet, but only 40,000 would make a phenomenal mark. My working group reports were made to IWF, which has the powers to do would be delighted to provide any help that it can. something about it. There needs to be much greater publicity on how to report to ensure that action can 2.47 pm take place. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): This is an John Mann: Publicity on how to do so and technical extremely important debate, which deserves wide and ease of use in doing so, so that the democratic internet thorough consideration in this House. It is right that in world can hit back effectively and the industry can be recent years much attention has been given to this monitored, is key. The key members of the working subject. I pay tribute to the Minister for the way he has group who really know what they are talking about responded to the debate, to the Prime Minister for the would be more than happy to meet the Minister, if he interest he has shown, and to his adviser, my hon. would find that useful. We could bring them over from Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), who has the US. driven the agenda from quite an early stage and to To get access to the right people, I went to meet whom credit should be given. industry leaders in their headquarters in California, and It is also important to give credit to the press, which I made the point that their brands were in danger. If the has fed back persistently and consistently on this subject. users and third parties, albeit national Governments, I have no doubt that the Daily Mail’s campaign and can show successes in prosecutions, the industry will active interest has contributed to encouraging politicians’ throw far more resources at the issue. The industry does attention on to something that is obviously very important throw at lot of resources at it. A third of all Facebook to the public in general, and, dare I say it, to its readers. employees are dealing with it, because the dangers to its I must say, however, that the motion, as it is phrased, brand are so fundamental, but at the moment it is less is not very helpful. It conflates child sexual abuse content, of an issue for other companies. They do see the dangers which is illegal, and adult content which is legal but to their brand, however, which is why senior people from which we need to protect children. The actions from PayPal now turn up to meetings. needed to tackle these different types of content are I intervened on the Minister—it was not a hostile different and it is very unhelpful to confuse and conflate intervention—on agreements in other countries. One the two. danger is that different countries will do different things. This is one of the most dynamic problems we face as Of course, that is not an excuse for any Government to a society. As soon as one issue seems to have been dealt hold back, but the French Government are taking various with, another problem emerges. That is the nature of legal actions against some of the key internet giants, as today’s fast moving society, but this area of policy is are the Italians, and there is a danger that the approach certainly at the leading edge of the speed of change. will become too bitty. May I suggest to the Minister Technology is developing faster than any Government that he try to up the stakes and achieve European can legislate, and avoidance measures lead to anti-avoidance Union consensus from Britain’s lead? If Britain is ahead measures, which in turn go on in a cycle. This throws up of the rest of the European Union, that is a good the risk of Members and individuals believing that opportunity to set the standards that others can push there are straightforward solutions. That is not the case, up to and take forward. That would be pragmatic and and I pay tribute to the Government for stating on the significant. We attack the industry—I am happy to record that their policies will develop. That is the pragmatic attack the industry in various ways—but it does not approach we need to take. We need to develop clear 381 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 382 principles: focusing on helping parents to introduce in these areas, rather than giving the impression, as safety features; offering a choice of filters available some Members have, that the flick of a switch will make from internet service providers; prompting parents towards the difference. An ISP filter would be oblivious to the security features; making it easier for parents to take very risks from which we need to protect children. charge; challenging the industry, which is exceptionally Furthermore, such filters would not protect against important; and working with law enforcement organisations bullying, grooming or other serious risks, but at the to combat illegal content. same time they would give parents a false sense of security. Jim Shannon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman One of the most effective answers—there will be for making such a balanced contribution. He will be several answers, and filters have a part to play, but they aware that many companies have a zero-tolerance policy are not the only solution—is for a parent to show a on child sexual abuse. One of those companies is Google, genuine interest in what is being viewed online. I am which helps fund and is a member of the IWF. Does he pleased that the debate over the past year or so has think it is now time that companies that are not members focused the minds of technology providers on making of the IWF joined and helped to fund it and adhered to device-level and even profile-level security features its policies and principles? and filters easier to use and understand. Google has its SafeSearch, for example, while Windows 8 has Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for made significant steps: it can e-mail parents a list of highlighting the IWF—I should declare an interest as all the sites viewed by a householder so that they can one of its champions—and would encourage all the check themselves what the child has been looking at. industry to join and support its greater funding in the Furthermore, now when someone signs up to an ISP or way that Google announced earlier today. sets up a new router, they are asked what settings they Before the Government’s welcome statement in response want, not only for the household, but for each computer. to their consultation on the debate over opting in and It needs to go even further, however, down to profile opting out of adult content, we ran the risk of presenting level, because the same computer can be used by different the situation as one that was relatively simple and where people. It is important, therefore, that we have the right responsibility to protect ourselves could be conveniently profile filter settings to protect the children using the passed over to others—for example, to ISPs. In reality, computer. Clearly, technology companies need to do it is not that straightforward; it is far more complicated, more to communicate that message and help parents and that is my issue with the motion, which, rather than further. helping, confuses the subject. Thankfully, however, the My comments so far have related to legal adult evidence to the consultation was clear. content, but we would all agree that the far more serious I pay tribute to Reg Bailey, the chief executive officer issues surround illegal content, particularly that involving of the Mothers’ Union, who recognised that complexity, the abuse of children—the area on which most of the against the general direction of the debate at the time recent public debate has focused. It is extremely important and against those calling for a simple opt in/opt out that we distinguish between legal and illegal content. approach—or an appropriate variant of it. A filter not This should not be a party political issue and there are only passes responsibility from parents to large no easy solutions. Some content might be distasteful, organisations, whose judgments might be completely but might well be available on shelves of newsagents or different from those of individual families, but makes shops in Soho. false promises, because of the avoidance measures I mentioned earlier. Encryption, for example, is a typical Ms Abbott: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? problem that an ISP filter would not overcome, but a parent would not necessarily understand that. Alun Cairns: I am running short of time, but if the At the moment, about 30% of customers choose to hon. Lady will allow me to make my point, I might have an ISP opt-out. If the policy was reversed—so that answer her question. people had to opt into adult content—the proportion would likely be much higher, which would run the risk We need to recognise, however, that the policing of of legal adult content providers using common avoidance such shops is relatively straightforward and that in techniques, such as encryption or proxy servers, which general children cannot access or stumble across such create further problems. Web proxies, which are a more material. Appropriate filters should stop the “stumbling recent development, and peer-to-peer networks are also across” element, but that leaves us with the policing. We not covered by ISP-level filters, but, believing their need to publicise the work of the IWF and reassure household computer to be safe, parents would be led people who might report issues to it that they will not into a false sense of security. necessarily be compromised. Much attention is focused on search engine companies, and it is important that Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Would the hon. they play their part—they have a responsibility here—but Gentleman not admit that some of these measures having researched their activities, I am aware of some of would make it safer for the average parent than the the technology they use to identify illegal content. They present situation? can claim to be playing a part, therefore, but search engines need to be at the cutting edge of image analysis Alun Cairns: I am coming to that very point. Challenges and coding—they need to be one step ahead of the remain, but the last thing we want to do is create the perpetrators of these terrible offences. impression that this is a simple issue and that children By focusing the debate on search engines, as some and families can be protected at the flick of a switch; it Members did earlier, we are forgetting that hosting is is much more complicated than that and deserves an where the offence effectively lies. If a website has been intelligent debate. We need to recognise the differences scratched from the search engine, the URL still exists 383 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 384

[Alun Cairns] Jenny Chapman: It is very difficult to say what might have prevented this tragedy, but the Government need and those seeking to view illegal content can go straight to look with some urgency at the power to monitor the to that address. The IWF, which has been mentioned internet use of people whom we know to be a threat to several times—I welcome the extra money made available children. to it today—has made a huge difference. Some 1% of It is not acceptable for a known offender to have the content it removes from the internet is hosted in the unmonitored online access in order to socialise with UK; 54% is hosted in north America; 37% is hosted young people. I have raised this issue in the House across the rest of Europe and Russia; the figure for Asia before and asked the Government to make progress is only 1%; and for South America it is even smaller. towards requiring sex offenders to register their online Those are the issues. It is an international problem. identities. Child protection and online safety will be significantly aided if that is a notification requirement 2.47 pm for registered sex offenders as a matter of course, and if Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I am pleased to failure to do so is regarded with just as much seriousness be able to contribute to today’s debate. as an offender failing to register the fact that they were It is clear that neither the Minister nor anyone else living with young children. In 2011, the Government can solve this problem on their own, but the Government consulted on the prescribed information that offenders can take action to help protect children online. My are expected to disclose, including increased notification particular concern centres on the unmonitored use of requirements for foreign travel and living arrangements, the internet by those whom we already know to have a and even changes to ensure that an offender could not history of sex offending. The Government’s consultation avoid the register by changing their name, but the issue on parental internet control stated that it was looking of online identification was not addressed. into the best way of shielding children from harmful It is often repeated that parents must take the lead in and adult content, including sites that exposed children protecting their children in online activity, and so they to online sexual grooming. Most of the debate and must. However, parents such as Ashleigh’s mum deserve consultation in this area has focused on restricting to know that dangerous people who are already known access to adult, pornographic and child abuse material, to the police and authorities are not left with the but in looking at the most serious threat—of grooming unchecked freedom to groom further victims. We know and sexual abuse—we need to be serious not just about who these people are, but false, manipulative online the online content, but about online users and those identities mean that young people such as Ashleigh do with whom children come into contact online. not know whom they are speaking to. Access to In my maiden speech, I began with a few words about inappropriate material for young children is very concerning, Ashleigh Hall, a young woman who lived in my but I expect that controlling it will be a constant battle, constituency. When she was 17, she was murdered by a with technology inevitably outpacing the law. My suggestion registered sex offender after she met him on Facebook. is to make a simple change, which follows the accepted The 33-year-old offender used a fake identity, and for principles of existing requirements on registered offenders, his profile took a picture of a younger man in order to but it could make all the difference to a family’s safety. I start talking to and grooming Ashleigh. After she agreed am glad that we are debating measures to protect young to meet him, the offender posed as his internet personality’s people online. I would simply ask that, as well as father in order to pick her up, after which he abducted, considering the broad safeguards that we seek to introduce, raped and murdered her. we also focus on the internet use of those whom we already know have a history of sexual offending. This man had a history of violent sexual offences, including multiple charges of sexual assault, rape and kidnapping. He was known to be dangerous and was a 3.3 pm registered sex offender, but although he and his home were registered and expected to be monitored, his internet Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): I am use was not. He was under no obligation to register his pleased to take part in this debate. I congratulate the online identities, and I have learned that any refusal to Labour party on calling it and using up one of their do so would have been met with no action whatever. Supply days to raise a serious and important matter to The authorities had no idea what images he was looking us all. at or who he was communicating with. It seems that every great invention that we make as We know that one quarter of 12 to 15-year-olds human beings brings both benefits and disbenefits. I report using social networking sites to communicate think of the internal combustion engine, which led to with people they do not already know. The Child the car, which gives us all great mobility but creates Exploitation and Online Protection Centre receives more pollution and kills 3,500 of our citizens on the roads than 600 reports of grooming each month, yet as the every year. Now we have the internet, which gives us situation stands, people we recognise as a serious threat amazing access to information and the ability to interact to public safety are monitored in the community but socially, but can allow access to all kinds of unsavoury not online, where they have as much access, if not and potentially harmful material. It is vital that we do a perhaps more, to building relationships with young better job of protecting our children, and I congratulate people and may pretend to be someone they are not. the Government on the steps they have taken so far. I have just two points to make in this debate. I do not Jim Shannon: One of the Labour party’s proposals pretend to be an expert and I certainly do not follow my refers to making extra resources available to the police hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun to ensure that these things can be monitored. Could Cairns) in his technological knowledge. These points that have prevented that case from happening? have been drawn to my attention by the British Board of 385 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 386

Film Classification, which I would describe as a trusted known song—I remember hearing it in my house. Although and familiar friend to most of us, as we see its image it has a happy ending, I would argue that the graphic before films. I think back to the first film I went to see, scenes in that video—which I am sure parents would the James Bond film “Thunderball”, in 1965—obviously allow their children to watch in a very relaxed way—are Iwasababy. far too explicit and dangerous for young teenage children to watch. We all know that many of the children who Alun Cairns: What was the certificate? follow these pop stars are very young and impressionable. At the very least, online videos should contain some Mr Streeter: I do not know what the certificate was, kind of classification. but may I just get on with my speech? The Government are rightly pressing the music industry My point is that we trust the BBFC’s classifications. voluntarily to adopt age-appropriate ratings for online When the Video Recordings Act 1984 was passed, more music videos. In response to a parliamentary question than 25 years ago, certain video works—I will come to from the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen online content in a second—were made exempt from Goodman), the Under-Secretary of State for Education, classification because they were considered unlikely to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich be harmful. However, the content of exempt works has (Mr Timpson) said: changed beyond recognition since 1984, which means “The Government will now take action to: make sure that that inappropriate and potentially harmful content can online music videos carry labels that show their age suitability, in be legally supplied to children. On 24 May 2013, the order to protect children from harmful material; and make it even Government announced that it planned to lower the easier for parents to keep their children safe online, wherever they are and in whatever way they might access the internet.”—[Official exemptions threshold in order to prevent children from Report, 6 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 1263W.] accessing potentially harmful material, so well done to the Government. This is a most welcome decision, for The onus has therefore been placed on the music industry which the BBFC—along with the home entertainment to come forward with a system that will work. industry, the recorded music industry, retailers and law The BBFC hopes to work with the recorded music enforcement bodies—had argued for some time. industry towards the goal of achieving well understood and trusted age ratings and content advice for online Once implemented, the decision will improve the music videos, as it has done successfully with the home protection that children enjoy from potentially harmful entertainment industry in relation to other online videos. media content by ensuring that video content such as The BBFC has now rated more than 200,000 videos for drug misuse, strong violence, racist language and certain online distribution by such companies as Walt Disney, sexual content can no longer legally be freely supplied 20th Century Fox, Paramount, Universal and Sony. to children. Instead, the BBFC will classify such content BBFC ratings are used by platforms such as iTunes, to keep it away from vulnerable and impressionable Netflix, blinkbox, BT Vision and TalkTalk—some of children. The Government have said that they hope to which I had heard of. have the new regime in place by April 2014, and I very much hope—I know that the Minister is listening carefully—that the Government will keep to that timetable, Tim Loughton: Have you used any of them? which requires secondary legislation. However, the legislation has never covered online content, and there Mr Streeter: No, I have not used any of them. is now particular concern about the content of online One obvious solution that the music industry could music videos. consider in response to the Government’s demands for age-appropriate ratings for online music videos would Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend is making a good be to adopt BBFC classifications voluntarily online. point about the Government’s welcome announcement. Does the Minister agree that that would be a constructive There is still a problem though, because although there way forward? is some classification of adult content and 18 video My final point relates to user-generated content—UGC. ratings in gaming now, auntie Mabel who buys a video Independent research from June 2011 shows that while for her grandchild at Christmas needs to be made the public believe that the internet brings greater choice, absolutely aware of the severity of some of the content freedom and flexibility, the majority of viewers still to which she might inadvertently be exposing her consider it important to be able to check the suitability grandchildren. We need better information in the shops of the audio-visual content that they download, with and on the part of retailers at the point of sale, so that 85% of the public considering it important to have she can ask whether she really wants her grandchildren consistent BBFC classifications available for video-on- to see that sort of content. demand content. The figure rises to 90% for parents of children under 16. Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. However, it is amateur user-generated content such I am sure that those on the Front Bench have taken it on as that seen on YouTube that makes up the majority of board, and no doubt the Minister will deal with it video content online. This might feature content that is explicitly in winding up. potentially harmful to children—I accessed the video to The issue of online music videos, to which the Bailey which I referred earlier through YouTube this morning— report also referred, must be seriously considered. My and it is presently unregulated. The BBFC and the attention was recently drawn to an online video made Dutch regulator NICAM have together developed a by a well known pop singer—I had not heard of her tool for ordinary people to age-rate UGC across different before, but never mind—which showed explicit shots of countries and platforms. I hope that my technological a young teenage girl, concerned about her body image, friend to my right, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale slitting her wrists in the bath. It is the video to a well of Glamorgan, will consider that a good thing. 387 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 388

[Mr Streeter] receptive and that it has moved things on? In some ways, it has created a sea change. We now need to work The tool is designed to enable those with responsibility with them to ensure that they bring about real, practical for children to make fully informed viewing choices change, rather than simply positioning ourselves. about non-professional content online. Through a single, simple, free-to-complete questionnaire, the tool Fiona Mactaggart: I do not think that that is what is instantaneously produces an age rating that can be happening in this debate. I will come to that point in a shown on screen. The ratings can differ from country to moment, as it has also been raised by other hon. Members. country to reflect different national sensitivities and The conclusion of our cross-party report was that concerns over content. The tool is simple. It contains six parents need help, a topic that has been dealt with to questions about the content of the UGC, on behaviour, some extent already in the debate. We need to think of drugs, horror, language, sex and violence. Completing better ways of helping parents, because what we have is the questionnaire takes less than a couple of minutes. It not enough. I genuinely think that home-level security also includes a facility for viewers to report content controls can make a huge difference. The technocrats that, in their view, might be illegal. In the UK, such a on the Conservative Benches might suggest that such report would go direct to the Internet Watch Foundation, controls are much less powerful than we think, but they about which much has been said this afternoon. are much more powerful that what is often used currently. The tool is also flexible. For instance, the questionnaire We must not make the best the enemy of the good. may be completed by those uploading content. Alternatively, Companies need to step up to the mark, and we have it may be completed by those viewing the content been able to put pressure on some of them to do so. online. The ratings can be linked to online filters. This During our inquiry, TalkTalk showed how it would be new initiative will shortly be trialled by Mediaset in possible to have home-level security arrangements, even Italy, and the BBFC and NICAM are looking for trial though other companies said that it would not be partners elsewhere, including in the United Kingdom. possible to do it in that way. Now, those other companies This is an example of the kind of initiative that can are beginning to face up to the fact that it is possible. make the online world safer for children, and it has been welcomed by the EU Commission’s Safer Internet Coalition. Alun Cairns: I still want to underline the point that I very much hope that our Government will get behind there are relatively easy ways of getting around some of this initiative to help parents and children to make those filters. We must not give the impression that better informed choices about user-generated content. having such filters will protect families and individuals. As we have heard this afternoon, there is no silver bullet on this issue, but with such incremental advances, our Fiona Mactaggart: The hon. Gentleman might well children will be better protected. be right. Most filters are too complicated for someone like me to implement—a point that I kept making 3.12 pm during the inquiry. I simply cannot do that thing where you have to type in about 25 digits and letters in order Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The motion rightly to make a filter work; and that is chronically true of starts with the issue of child sex abuse, recent cases of mums. which have caused so many of us such distress. I want to start by praising the brilliant work of the Internet Ms Abbott: The problem with those filters is that it Watch Foundation; like many other Members, I am one takes a long time to master their installation, but it of its champions. I thank the EU for funding it, and I takes the average self-respecting child less than an hour say to Google, “We’re glad you have increased the to get round them. amount you give to the foundation, but that doesn’t mean we don’t want your taxes.” Fiona Mactaggart: My hon. Friend is right. However, I want to focus on the second part of the motion, what we can do by installing home-level filters is increase which considers the broader issue of child protection on the base level of security. It is true that some people can the internet. We know that 90% of children live in get round them, but if we increase the base level of homes that have internet access, and more than half of security, we are giving some extra help to some parents. those children have internet access in their bedrooms. I We also need to help children to protect themselves. I got those figures from the report produced by the was really disappointed by yesterday’s debate, which I inquiry on which I was proud to serve with the hon. connect to this subject, on whether sex and relationships Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). It includes some education in schools should be compulsory. We do not excellent recommendations, and it has moved this agenda have to take the word of a leftie atheist on this; let us forward in an important way. She described me as take the words of Ofsted, which has stated: fulfilling the need for a representative on that body “A lack of high-quality, age-appropriate sex-and-relationships from the leftie atheist end of the spectrum. We were able education in more than a third of schools is a concern as it may to put on the agenda an issue that had not been sufficiently leave children and young people vulnerable to inappropriate addressed before. Since then, I have been thinking about sexual behaviours and sexual exploitation. This is because they how many children have internet access not only in their have not been taught the appropriate language or developed the bedrooms but on the mobile devices in their pockets. I confidence to describe unwanted behaviours or know where to go suggest that that applies to a substantial proportion of to for help.” our children. The report also found that, in just under half of schools, pupils had received lessons about staying safe but few Mr Burrowes: This right-wing Christian served on the had developed the skills to apply their understanding inquiry along with that left-wing atheist. Does the hon. effectively, such as assertiveness skills that enable them Lady agree that the momentum created by the inquiry to stand up for themselves and negotiate their way has led to internet service providers becoming more through difficult situations. We need to give children 389 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 390 those skills, and to ensure that they can keep themselves and illegal. We have to stop it. The IWF does an safe. Ofsted also pointed out that children understand excellent job in trying to do so. Is there a problem with the importance of applying security settings on social young people having inappropriate access? Yes. Is there networking sites but that they did not always know how a problem with online grooming? Yes. Is there a problem to set them, or did not bother to do so. Our sex and with online cyber-bullying? Absolutely. Is there a problem relationships education is failing children, leaving them with the widespread sexualisation of young women in unable to keep themselves safe. particular? Absolutely, and I pay tribute to the Under- The work of Laura Bates and the Everyday Sexism Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. project was honoured at a dinner, held in memory of Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) Emily Wilding Davison, that I attended last night. for her consistent work to combat it. Everyday Sexism was honoured because it recognises The approach highlighted today, particularly by the how sexism can be really dangerous for young girls. I hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), have heard Laura talk about how young girls who have simply will not work. I find that frustrating, as it does been shown gross images of pornography and sexual not engage with the facts or reality of what is happening. violence by young boys are often frightened of sex. The right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell They think that sex is something cruel, horrible and and Peckham (Ms Harman) was heckling earlier and dangerous. We have to bring back the connection between said that we should not focus on the detail. If we do not love and sex; it is being destroyed by what my hon. focus on the detail, we will not get something that works. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke What would work? I absolutely endorse the work of Newington (Ms Abbott) has described as our “pornified” the Internet Watch Foundation. It does excellent work society. She is right; it makes society a dangerous place and I am delighted to see it getting more funding, as I for young girls to live in. First of all, we need to help think it should have extra support. I am pleased, too, parents to protect them; we secondly expect the companies that the Government are supporting CEOP so that to improve their levels of protection; and we thirdly when we find people carrying out illegal activities, we need to enable children to protect themselves. For that take the correct legal action. That is what should happen. reason, I believe this debate is closely related to the We should never allow a situation in which the police amendment that Labour moved yesterday on compulsory simply do not have the money to arrest somebody who sex and relationships education in schools, which needs they know is doing something illegal. to include the issue of consent. The things we have heard about today will not make a Some Members said earlier, “Let’s make this a cross-party difference. The people who are heavily engaged in child issue”, and I am willing to do that. I have worked across pornography will not be tackled. Those people are very party on the excellent inquiry on the safety of children internet savvy. They will use virtual private networks on the internet. If the Minister said to the Opposition that are not listed, so nothing we have heard about Front-Bench team, “I will invite you to the summit today will tackle any of those problems. We have to dealing with URLs and providers, as you should be work at the technical level to get things right rather than there”, I would then believe that this was a genuinely just try to make it look as if we are doing something. cross-party issue, and I would invite my Front-Bench In some ways, child pornography is easier to deal team not to press this motion to the vote. I am thus with because it is possible to define it. We know what is challenging the Minister to do that in his response. I illegal and there are clear definitions. The IWF has a would hope that if he did so my Front-Bench team manual check for the sites. Certain sites can be blocked would say, “Okay, we do not need a vote; this is genuinely only when it knows that there is something wrong. That cross-party; we are unanimous and we will together do is very different from the space around legal material, or more to protect our children from a violent society that trying to come up with ways of filtering out things that is making them frightened of sexual relationships.” We are fundamentally legal and making a judgment call should feel very guilty if the result of what we do is to based on them. create a world in which sex is scary. Helen Goodman: We are making judgment calls all 3.21 pm the time. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I was not planning to speak, but I found the tenor of so much of Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is absolutely right, but what has been said so frustrating in its lack of accuracy writing algorithms to do that on millions and millions that I had to speak. I would exempt some speeches, of websites simply cannot be done correctly. I shall particularly that of the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan come back to that, although I know that the hon. Lady (Alun Cairns), who used technical accuracy, which does and the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell matter. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for and Peckham are not concerned about the errors that Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), for whom I usually have would be made. great respect, but she gave it away when she complained It is absolutely right to provide tools for parents to about “the technocrats”. Technical accuracy matters if control what is happening. They should be the ones we are going to do things that work. We need to know empowered to look after their children. I would rather exactly what “inviting urls to a meeting” is supposed to trust the parents to look after their children than require mean. state-level controls. It is absolutely right to have those There is a huge danger of falling into the trap of the available for people to use and to make them easy and politician’s syllogism: we must do something; this is clear to use. I think there should be no default because I something; therefore we must do this. That is the danger think we should encourage parents to engage with the we face. Is there a problem? Absolutely, there is a huge question before they make a decision. They should be problem with child pornography, which is nasty, cruel faced with a box that they have to tick, but they should 391 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 392

[Dr Huppert] empowerment: the problem is, if we provide an illusion of protection, which gives people a false sense of security, be in charge. The Byron review was very clear that a that can make people less safe. It can leave children false sense of security could be created if we just tell more exposed than doing things that actually work. It people that everything is safe. also downgrades the role of parents and parenting. Moreover, we must accept that any filter can be Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The problem bypassed. It is easy for those who know what they are here is that we are not dealing with simply looking at a doing to carry out a quick Google search and find out book or magazine and deciding whether it is suitable for how to bypass any filter that they encounter, and there a child. We are dealing with something that many is no way in which we could prevent that from happening. people have said—this has been the focus of much of We must therefore try to engage with people rather than the research—they find very difficult to operate. The introducing state control in the form of legislation to outcome is that many parents are not able to use those force search engines to run in a particular way, because filters. that does not work. [Interruption.] The motion calls for legislation. If the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is right, which is exactly does not believe that it should, that is her problem. why we need simpler filters. The work done by Talk Perhaps it suggests that motions should be tabled rather Talk and others provides precisely that. There should be earlier than a few hours before the deadline for any simple clear filters with simple clear questions so that changes. parents can have a look and make a simple clear decision. Yes, we must do something, but what we do must I do not want to force parents to abdicate that responsibility work, must be proportionate, and must make things because there are other consequences of these filters. better for the people about whom we are concerned. Any filtering system will have large errors. There will That, rather than what was suggested by the hon. be errors that mean it does not filter out some things Member for Bishop Auckland, is the way forward. I that we might want it to filter out because it cannot be commend the Minister—it is good to see him back in sorted out perfectly. There is no way of indentifying the Chamber—for his work on the issue, for his commitment automatically what counts as pornography and what to trying to deal with the problems in a way that will does not; what is appropriate and what is inappropriate. make a difference, and for the position that he has That is simply impossible to achieve, so stuff will get taken today. through that we are not expecting to get through. There is also the problem of filtering some useful things out. 3.29 pm There are already many cases—when it comes to advice for lesbian, bisexual and transgender issues, for example— Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): While we are where mobile phone providers automatically filter out all patting ourselves on the back and saying that there is the content, which can cause serious harm to young widespread agreement—and there clearly is widespread people trying to get advice. Trying to get advice about agreement—we should also bear it in mind that there is abortion services is another problem. There are a whole a considerable campaign against the taking of steps in range of such issues that are automatically filtered out this direction. It has not really been represented in the by many mobile phone providers. If we are telling House today, but it is clear from earlier debates, and children that we do not want to let them have appropriate from communications that we have all received, that information, that can be damaging. there is another point of view which is very different. There are people who want a degree of freedom in Tim Loughton: I should declare an interest as a society that can actually be damaging, and we must be champion of the Internet Watch Foundation. I am prepared to have a proper debate about that as well. slightly disappointed at the rather defeatist attitude The issue of freedom is very important in the history taken by the hon. Gentleman. The solution is not a of events such as the women’s movement, but there has silver bullet. It is not any one of the individual things often been a confusion between freedom in a fairly that have been mentioned; it is a jigsaw. Empowering abstract sense—for instance, the sexual liberation of the and giving resilience and confidence to our children—and 1960s—and the effect that some material can have on, confidence, resilience and expertise to their parents to in particular, those who are vulnerable. Much of what be able to filter what they believe to be right and appears on the internet and elsewhere is damaging wrong—is an important part of that jigsaw. Filters have because of the way in which it portrays women, the way their flaws, but they are part of that jigsaw as well. Will in which it portrays relationships between men and the hon. Gentleman admit that some of the things women, and the way in which it allows people to see a mentioned during the debate are part of the solution version of human relations that is deeply damaging. and that we should not dismiss them simply because People sometimes say that such material will not be they are not absolutely perfect? harmful to many people, but it probably will be. It is interesting that the same argument is never advanced Dr Huppert: I agreed with almost everything the hon. about advertising. People do not advertise because they Gentleman said, until the end. Yes, I think we should think that advertising does not work; they advertise empower parents to make the correct decisions, and I because they think that advertisements influence us, believe we should educate children so that they can and indeed we are all clearly influenced by them. We think for themselves and be empowered. I absolutely have all found ourselves going into a shop and buying agree with all of that, but that is not what the motion something that we may not have meant to buy because says and it is not what the hon. Member for Bishop we saw or heard an advertisement for it, and thought Auckland emphasised. The hon. Gentleman and I would “That sounds like a good idea.” I am not suggesting agree that there are some important measures for that someone who stumbles across pornography, online 393 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 394 or anywhere else, is bound to turn into a violent person, improve the situation and to give greater protection. I but there will be some people whose attitudes, particularly have no doubt that there will be some very clever people their attitudes to what is acceptable between men and who can find ways around all sorts of things—we know women, will be affected by it. that that happens—but to say that we should not put such measures in place for that reason would be wholly Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): wrong. My hon. Friend has made an important point about the Let me address some of what the hon. Member for availability of images on the internet. There are more Cambridge (Dr Huppert) said. He seemed, perhaps child abuse images circulating on the internet now than surprisingly, to be setting the state against the parent in ever before. As a result of freedom of information a way that is not helpful. Of course parents should be requests by the National Society for the Prevention of making decisions for their children, but there are many Cruelty to Children, about 26 million images were circumstances in which we have to rely on others in seized in two years by five local forces. Does my hon. schools and in the wider world to protect our children. Friend agree that the availability of such material is That is not an abdication of parental responsibility, leading to a potential normalisation of it, and that that because parents cannot be with their child all the time. is one of the most important problems that we must They will not be able to supervise every social contact tackle in the interests of our children today? they have. As a parent, I would certainly prefer to be Sheila Gilmore: I agree that we should take that confident that I could let my children out into a world problem very seriously, and should take action to deal that I could regard as reasonably safe—whether that with it. was the physical or virtual world—than to be unable to do so. Perhaps that is not what the hon. Gentleman was This is not only about protecting children, although suggesting, but that was how it came across to me. that is extremely important. It is also about protecting Suggesting that such an approach somehow does not older young people, and about protecting adults and, leave things to the parents and that it wants the state to hopefully, changing their views. I think that if certain step in is a wholly wrong way of considering the matter. types of behaviour are normalised and become commonplace, they will eventually be seen as broadly Dr Huppert: The concern is that the filters will be acceptable, and the relationships that are portrayed easy to bypass and that a huge proportion of young between men and women will be considered not people will be able to get past them. If parents are led to unacceptable, but something that women themselves believe that such things mean that their children will not are almost expected to accept. be able to access inappropriate material when they are I think that it is important to deal with this. I thought up in their room on their computer, that will lead that it was important many years ago when groups were parents to make the wrong decisions about how best to campaigning about, for example, pornography in magazines, look after their children. It is not that parents do not but this type of pornography is pervasive in a way that know how to do that—as we know from when parents even that was not. Going to buy a magazine in a shop were asked about the subject by Ofcom, this is a question was a more difficult transaction for many people than of supervision, which is far more effective than a misleading what we now see happening in our homes. sense of security. Fiona O’Donnell: Does my hon. Friend also think Sheila Gilmore: One of the practical problems with that ISPs have a vested interest in that regard? If adults that approach is the notion that someone is, in any had to opt in to view adult sites and pornography, that sense, going to be there supervising their children through would almost certainly have an impact on business and all this—we all do our best. We attempt to instil the the number of people choosing that option. values and behaviours that we want in our children, but it would be wrong to suggest that that will always work, Sheila Gilmore: In many ways, I would hope that that even for those of us who think, or hope, we are or have was not the case. I do not know where the ISPs make been very good parents. Children grow older and they their money, but many of us are critical of their reluctance are out in that wider world—in friends’ homes or out in in this matter. One or two Members have suggested all sorts of other social contexts. I want my children to today that, because some of the proposals would not be be protected from being able to buy alcohol when they perfect and would not screen out everything and because are too young to buy it. I do not want to have to some organisations and people might be clever enough accompany them everywhere to make sure they do not get around them in various technical ways that we do do that; I want to be sure that they are, within reason, not necessarily fully understand, we should not take protected. However, I know that that can be got round those steps. As in so much of our political and social as well, because I know that children are very good at lives, we should not make the best the enemy of the getting fake IDs. That does not mean that we should good. If we can do something to improve things, we just abandon the attempt to control these things. should do it. Several hon. Members rose— Alun Cairns: I want to highlight that I am a strong advocate and fan of filters, but I think it is very dangerous Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. to give the impression that they are the whole answer. The wind-ups are due to start at 4.10 pm, so I am The solution is far more complicated than that and we establishing a time limit on all Back-Bench speakers of must be clear about it. six minutes. If there are lots of interventions and speeches run for longer than six minutes, the last few speakers Sheila Gilmore: We must not approach this at cross will have their time cut again. Please remember that purposes. I do not think that anyone is saying that any interventions are supposed to brief and relevant to the of the proposals are perfect; we are merely seeking to point being made at the time. I call Diane Abbott. 395 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 396

3.40 pm As for the role of the industry, I am very glad that Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) everyone is sitting round the table with the industry, and (Lab): Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am glad that the industry is being nice, but this House I am pleased to be speaking in this important debate. must remember that pornography is the biggest driver Throughout it, we have heard a lot about committees, of traffic to the internet. Porn is the most frequent working parties and foundations, but I want to bring search term on Google. We cannot allow an industry the debate back to what is at the heart of this issue—children that makes millions out of porn, month on month, to and families. I say to the hon. Member for Devizes dictate the pace of change. (Claire Perry) that I bow to no one in my respect for What needs to happen? No one is saying that there is the enthusiasm with which she has embraced this issue since one technological fix; not a single speaker has said that. she became a Member of Parliament in 2010, but she First, we need to help parents to talk to their children. must be slightly careful about sounding as if politics began Through Sure Start and other initiatives, we need to when she became a Member of Parliament then. It is encourage young parents to understand how to talk to also appropriate to give some credit to all the individual their children about these matters, and to understand activists, and to organisations such as the Mothers’ the dangers. Most young children do not understand Union and the Everyday Sexism Project, for campaigning that if they text or put on Facebook a picture of their on these issues for very many years before 2010. naked body, it never disappears. We need to help parents A number of Government Members have made the to talk to their children, but we also need statutory sex distinction between legal and illegal internet images, as and relationships education. No one will take the if the legal ones are in some sense benign. Let me Government seriously on the matter of access by children remind the House that it would not be legal to show to online porn while they continue to set their face those images to under-18s in a cinema, so why should against statutory sex and relationship education. we be complacent about under-18s accessing them Of course, we need a willingness to legislate. I am online? Over and over again, I have heard Members very glad that the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, of this House say, as the hon. Member for Cambridge Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Dr Huppert) did, “Parents should look after their (Mr Vaizey), sits around the table with the industry, and children. It is all about the parents.” One of the problems that many members of the Government have personal with this particular issue is that the technology and the connections with Google and so forth, but women and drive of the industry has completely outrun parents’ families watching this debate do not want the industry understanding. When I was a child, if a young person to dictate the pace of change. They want a Government wanted to see pornography, they had to go to a newsagent who are prepared to stand up to the industry and to and purchase a top-shelf magazine. No newsagent would legislate, because only with a realistic threat of legislation have sold such a magazine to a child as young as 11, yet will the industry meet these needs and concerns, and the average age of boys accessing hardcore porn online address the unhappiness and misery that children’s access has dropped to eight. That is what we are talking about. to online porn is causing in our society. We would not allow eight-year-olds to go into a cinema to see hardcore porn, so why are Government Members 3.46 pm so complacent, or unwilling to take decisive action, about eight-year-olds accessing this online—on their Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): My constituency computer, on their phone or wherever? is not that far from where the tragic death of April People who say, “The parents should sit by them” are Jones took place, and there was much reflection in the not living in the world that parents do. I have sat next to communities that make up my constituency on the my son when he was a much smaller child and we have issues surrounding that death, and on the mindset of been innocently googling “Disney” or “Pokémon” only Mark Bridger. I do not make any pretence of great to find that these pornographic pop-ups appear on the technical knowledge, and I was reminded of that point screen. If the child is there on their own, all they have to yet again yesterday when I failed to add a printer to my do is click through to see thoroughly horrific images—that computer; instead, I went on to another. That is not the is the reality. issue. For me, this is not a general, abstract debate on what is, and what is not, censorship. It is about how This is all about ease of access, the way in which the things that would not in a million years be legal offline technology has come on in leaps and bounds and the seem to be legal online. That is a matter of great harms of online porn. In the few minutes available to concern. Offline, we would not allow young children me, I want to touch on that. My hon. Friend the access to the sort of images that they can access online, Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) spoke and that is of great concern. from her own experience about it. We are dealing with an increasingly sexualised and pornified culture. Even if Some people will try to portray this as a debate about our own children are not accessing porn, the extent to censorship. We know what censorship means; it happens which young people are doing so is affecting girls’ in certain countries, where there is the total blocking of self-image and boys’ sexual demands. Girls now think it social networking and references to the Dalai Lama, perfectly normal to sext pictures of their naked bodies and a ban on certain political viewpoints. We are not to boys; otherwise they are not accepted—not part of talking about that. the gang. We in this country have more plastic surgery Various American states have brought in legislation than people anywhere else in Europe. Accessing online on the issue, including, in some cases, state-mandated porn is associated with domestic violence and, as we internet filtering on various computers. Certain states have heard, murder and brutality. There are real harms have passed laws against digital harassment. The state attached to the increasing access by very young children of Illinois has criminalised electronic harassment outside of online porn, and I wish some Government Members the school setting. That is interesting, and it is important had taken the matter more seriously. that we learn from those experiences. 397 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 398

I was heartened by what the Minister said when my yesterday, she is thoroughly modern in her approach. hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint She was able to name the Pokémons as one of the Davies) brought up the issue of closing the loophole groups that children look at online, though Pokémons regarding rape pornography websites. It has been illegal are perfectly fine as creatures and they probably need to publish portrayals of rape in the UK since 1959, but protection from the children. such material is legally available to download online if In the short time available to us to speak, let me say it comes from foreign websites. I am heartened by what that I normally go to the hon. Member for Cambridge the Minister said; I think I detect a certain softening of (Dr Huppert), who is a member of the Home Affairs what the Ministry of Justice has previously said on that, Committee, for advice on these matters, and I listened and I hope that the Government take the views of many carefully to what he said about filters. However, I think individuals and groups into consideration. the real responsibility is on the internet companies and The Minister and other Members have spoken at the service providers. They have got away with murder— length about the excellent work of CEOP.Figures provided literally, in some cases—because people have been able by CEOP show that only one in every 15 people caught to use the internet to groom young girls and children viewing child pornography on the internet is arrested. and to behave in an irresponsible way. The internet The NSPCC has said that when agencies such as CEOP companies throw up their hands and say that is freedom track down people viewing pictures of child abuse, they of speech. should We recently had some of those companies before the “feel the full force of the law”, Home Affairs Committee during our last inquiry and making the point that it was shocked by the figures and also during a previous inquiry, so we have questioned calling on police chiefs to take the issue more seriously them about both the roots of radicalism and e-crime. because of the strong link between viewing child porn We will invite them again when we look at this matter and attacks on youngsters. As a spokeswoman for again. They are very reluctant to intervene, and a tiny YoungMinds, a charity committed to improving the proportion of their profits—a tiny proportion—goes to emotional well-being and mental health of children and the Internet Watch Foundation. It is not enough. They young people said, the link between viewing child cannot sit back complacently and allow these things to pornography and the sexual abuse of children means go on without intervening and cleaning up the internet. that The Home Secretary has made positive statements, “thousands are at risk of serious harm”. after what happened in Woolwich, about her desire to That is an important point highlighting the need to get things done. I am glad that there is a summit next arrest more of the people involved. week. I hope that she will be invited and that this is not In 2008, for the UK Council for Child Internet Safety, just being seen as an issue for the Department for Professor Tanya Byron stressed the importance of building Culture, Media and Sport, because when dealing with children’s resilience; for example, teaching them not to crime it is important to ensure that the police are fully give out contact details online. I, too, was disappointed involved. that we did not have the debate on relationship education yesterday and I hope it will come back in another Tim Loughton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give format. way? Finally, many of us have been interested in the debate taking place on Facebook where to some extent we are Keith Vaz: I will get into trouble with you, Madam seeing citizen power, with people contacting the advertisers Deputy Speaker, but I will give way briefly. of various sites and stating that they will not buy their products unless they put pressure on certain social networking sites to take down, for example, jokes relating Tim Loughton: The right hon. Gentleman makes a to rape. We all know that we cannot totally police the good point about the search engines, most of which are internet but it is important that we try to do that in based in America, pleading freedom of speech. Does he diverse ways, and that we come together as a House to agree that every search engine could have a simple sign do so. This is not an issue about social liberals or social on its home page alerting users to how they can report conservatives. I am quite happy to say that I am a social material they are concerned about, which would cost conservative inside the Labour party, although my more nothing? That way, there would be no excuse for not socially liberal friends are not always pleased about knowing what to do. They could also put money into that. It is important that the issue brings us together having moderators to ensure a rapid response to and that we continue to work on it because, as we saw in unacceptable material. the case of April Jones, in its most extreme form its consequences are truly devastating. Keith Vaz: Yes, and I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for all the work he did in that area as Children’s Minister 3.52 pm and since then. The internet companies must be proactive. They have to go in and clean up the internet. They Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to cannot just sit back and allow others to do it for them. follow my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South It is so difficult to get internet companies to appear (Susan Elan Jones). I declare myself a dinosaur where before Select Committees. It takes an age to find them, online issues are concerned. I was going to say the same and then they always respond by saying that they are thing about my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney based in California or New York and therefore do not North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), but she is come over to the UK. They send us their public relations much more modern than I am. Although she, I and you, officers, but they, very nice people though they are, are Madam Deputy Speaker, were elected 26 years ago not the decision makers. 399 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 400

[Keith Vaz] The dramatic rise in the use of communications technology and the development of new forms of social I am full of praise for the work CEOP does. I have interaction online have hugely complicated child protection visited it, along with members of the Home Affairs in Britain. Social media have greatly increased the ability Committee, and encourage other right hon. and hon. of gangs and individuals to target vulnerable children. Members to go—it is just across the Vauxhall Bridge Children naively share a great deal of information road—and see the fantastic work being done. I pay online and are often unaware of the risks in doing so, or tribute to Jim Gamble for his work in setting it up in the of the security measures that are there to protect them. first place and to Peter Davies, who leads it ably. I say to Abusers have always been able to identify vulnerable the Policing Minister—he is now in conversation with children, but social media and mobile phones now the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and make it easy for them to make contact with them. Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who Technology has left parents with an extremely difficult has done a great deal of work in these matters, for task in monitoring their children’s interactions and which we are grateful—that it is very important that we recognising potentially dangerous situations. Children protect CEOP’s budget. The Home Affairs Committee and parents must be better educated as to the risks of expressed concern that CEOP was being put into the online communications and the safeguards that are National Crime Agency. We accept what the Government currently available. I recognise the comments of the have done and understand the need to rationalise the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), which others policing landscape, but it is important to maintain have echoed, but I still urge the House to support our CEOP’s budget and focus. I understand that its budget proposal to have safe search as the default option on will be cut by 10% over the next four years. Perhaps the computers and search engines. Filters already exist to Minister can reassure me that that is not the case and screen out harmful material, but 54% of parents whose that CEOP, even though it is in the NCA—the Committee children use the internet at home have no parental thinks that is fine for the moment, but we will revisit the controls installed on their devices. Making filters the subject—will still retain its focus. Ultimately, it provides factory setting removes this risk, and parents have the terrific expertise that could benefit police forces across option to opt out of the system if they see fit. the country. Social media have increasingly exposed ever-younger Finally, I recently visited Europol and Interpol. I children to sexualised material. Some 24% of nine to urge the Policing Minister to visit those organisations, 16-year-olds in the UK say that they have seen sexual because I gather that no Home Office Minister has images in the past 12 months, online or offline. A visited Europol in recent years. They are doing some number of services have linked exposure to overtly fantastic work internationally. I know that the Cabinet sexual content via the internet with children displaying Office has funded a project in Interpol specifically dealing inappropriately sexual behaviour. Such behaviour has with online child exploitation. I think that we can take been highlighted as contributing to greater vulnerability credit for the work we are doing internationally. To of increasingly young children. I do not believe in return to my first point, the internet is a marvellous censoring the internet, but it is important that children invention and a power for good, but as we have seen, are protected from inappropriate content. and as we have heard today, it can be used in a different, In the past, increased sexual behaviour among children darker way to exploit children. I hope that internet has led to a perception that they are somehow complicit service providers and others involved in this whole area in their abuse. Regrettably, this has frequently been an will understand their responsibilities and act accordingly. obstacle to proper safeguarding measures being taken. Equally horrifyingly, the child’s sexual awareness has 3.58 pm been successfully used in courts to enable abusers to get a lesser sentence. Work is being done to tackle this Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): On Monday the attitude among authorities and police forces, but it is Home Affairs Committee launched its report on child imperative that proper training is provided to staff to sexual exploitation and grooming. Rotherham is one of ensure that they take all cases seriously and recognise the areas that figures in that report, due to it historic the need to protect children, regardless of the child’s failings in tackling that vile crime. Since my election six own attitude or behaviour. months ago, I have made it my mission to ensure that Technology is, by its nature, evolving. Agencies face we do not let Rotherham children, and indeed all children, an extremely complex task in keeping up with developments down like that again. Rotherham council and South and ensuring that procedures are adequate and that Yorkshire police are now working collaboratively with staff are well trained to meet existing and developing the national charity Barnardo’s and local charities challenges. The complexity of these challenges has SAFE@LAST and GROW.Together they will implement demonstrated the need for better co-ordinated operations. preventive measures and investigate and prosecute abusers. Agencies must ensure that there is a free flow of information Since January there have been 34 investigations into between them because in the past it has proved too easy child sexual exploitation. Seven offenders are now being for vulnerable children to fall through the gaps due to prosecuted and there are four major ongoing operations. poor communication. Levels of co-ordination vary widely I assure you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and this House throughout the country, and that should not be allowed. that I will be watching like a hawk to make sure that the While child protection must always be the primary authorities continue to protect our children. However, focus, prosecution must not be allowed to become an child sexual exploitation has been steadily increasing in ancillary concern. I recognise that prosecutions in these the UK. Barnardo’s, which runs 24 sexual exploitation cases can be extremely difficult, but without a proper services across the country, saw a 22% increase in the deterrent the risk of child abuse will continue to rise. We numbers of sexually exploited children in 2011-12. The must ensure that the law is fit for purpose. New forms of internet has been used in the majority of those cases. abuse and grooming, especially online, might not always 401 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 402 fall under existing laws. It is our duty to provide our any are ridiculous. It is like saying that a safety belt or police and child protection officers with the tools they another form of protection cannot protect us completely. require to ensure that vulnerable children are protected Obviously they cannot, but when children are given and offenders are prosecuted. phones by their parents they should be locked out of A number of recent cases, including in my own accessing imagery that they can share with others—this constituency, have highlighted the need for further action is true of the male community in particular—while to tackle child abuse. Good work is being done to endless pressure is put on the female community. We ensure that children are protected, but I stress that more want schools to be a protected environment for our needs to be done to meet the demands of a complex and children. That must be part of the answer. fast-changing problem. We must ensure that vulnerable I am drawing a wider picture of the appalling situation children are not failed. with regard to child sex abuse imagery. As the normality of viewing this sort of stuff penetrates our school 4.4 pm environment, affecting younger and younger children, the whole thing becomes an endemic problem. We need Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Google, to act now. It is true that we need cross-party consensus, Facebook and Twitter are the new gateways for abuse but we cannot simply rest on our laurels, hope for the and pornography—Google historically so. Google has best and get grudging, belated co-operation from the donated £1 million, but it is important that such enormous industry, which is making so much money out of internet companies pay their tax and take their responsibilities. I pornography. was interested to hear the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) about the appalling death of one of her constituents and agree 4.9 pm with her call to track sex offenders online. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I am glad to see the former Immigration Minister, the All hon. Members agree that child abuse is an horrific right hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green), in his crime. I am pleased that the Opposition have provided place—I hope he knows something about this—because the House with the opportunity to discuss how to tackle we need to confiscate the passports of known sex offenders it this afternoon. involved in sex tourism, which I have discussed in the I am disappointed that the Government will not Council of Europe. There needs to be more international support the motion. We tabled it in good faith and it is collaboration, including DNA sharing. wrong to accuse us of playing politics on this important I mentioned earlier the responsibility of credit card issue. After all, all of us in Parliament are politicians companies such as Visa. If they are found to be complicit and we are debating the big political issues of the day. I in the downloading of child abuse imagery they should am sorry if it is politically inconvenient for the Government be fined. It is a startling fact that across Europe about to discuss this subject today. It is also a great shame that one in five children are likely to be subjected to sexual they were not able to stir themselves to table an amendment violence. This is the appalling world we now live in, to the motion. hence the Lanzarote convention, which is an international Members may be interested to know that in the agreement to protect children’s rights, stop exploitation course of this debate, reports have come in of material and increase co-operation. I hope that, despite the that should be taken down. It is therefore good that this inward-looking tendency of the current Administration debate has taken place. vis-à-vis Europe and the world, they will reach out in the interests of children. I would like to mention a few of the contributions that have been made. My hon. Friend the Member for I intend to table an early-day motion on the issue of East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) talked in a very personal rape imagery on the internet. I mentioned it on Twitter way about how difficult it is for young people to deal and received a barrage of responses from, of course, with abuse. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw men—some of whom were lawyers—saying that the (John Mann) spoke of his experience of hate crime. My Ministry of Justice says that there is no evidence of a hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) causal relationship between the portrayal of women talked about the dreadful murder of Ashleigh Hall and being raped and encouraging rape and rapists. That is the need to regulate the use of the internet by sex an extraordinary thing to say, but even if it was true it is offenders. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough wrong to think that it is all right for men to get off on (Fiona Mactaggart) talked about the important role of online images of women being raped. PSHE and said that it should be a compulsory part of The reality is that children take their mobile phones the national curriculum. My hon. Friend the Member to schools and freely download images of—how can I for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) spoke, as usual, put it?—“normal” pornography and more abusive with enormous common sense. My hon. Friend the pornography, which is leading to a new idea of what is Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington culturally acceptable in human relationships. That, in (Ms Abbott) made an excellent contribution about the turn, puts pressure on women to go through a process pornified culture that has developed. My hon. Friend of various pornographic acts that are regarded as the the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) set norm in a relationship. There is a danger that boys are out clearly how things can be illegal offline but legal being encouraged to be more forceful in their pursuit of online. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee girlfriends and what they expect them to do in emulating talked about the importance of working not just with what is regarded as normal adult behaviour. the DCMS, but with the Home Office and other agencies The motion’s call for an opt-out, therefore, is completely on this important issue. My hon. Friend the Member right. The facile comments made by various Members for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) spoke with great about filters not being perfect so we should not have knowledge about what is happening in her local area, 403 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 404

[Diana Johnson] is or is not possible. At the summit next week, I hope that Ministers will make clear the need to act swiftly and the problems and challenges that it faces. My hon. and resolve issues that have been outstanding for some Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) time, with a clear timetable. had an excellent idea relating to the role of credit card In the context of abusive material being freely available, companies in helping people to download porn. we should be looking to help parents protect children There were contributions from other Members of the from accessing pornography. My hon. Friend the Member House, including the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire for Bishop Auckland made an eloquent case for how Perry). It is important to acknowledge her hard work the three measures that Labour is calling for in the on this subject. It is unfortunate that she was unable to motion could be a practical solution to try to stop stay for most of the debate and did not hear the children accessing pornography. contributions of many hon. Members who have been The report from the Children’s Commissioner, concerned about this issue and taken it up for many appropriately entitled “Basically...porn is everywhere”, years. The hon. Member for South West Devon found that a significant proportion of children and (Mr Streeter) made a sensible proposal about music young people are exposed to or access pornography, videos that I hope the Government heard. The hon. and it is not uncommon for children as young as 10 to Members for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) and for access it. Perhaps more important are the report’s findings Cambridge (Dr Huppert) also spoke. on the effect that is having on young people. Access and The estimate of the number of people in the UK who exposure to pornography affects children and young access child abuse images online is truly shocking and people’s sexual beliefs, leading to unrealistic attitudes cannot be ignored. I was pleased that the Under-Secretary about sex and beliefs that women are sex objects. There of State for Culture, Media and Sport agreed that it is is a clear link between access and exposure to pornography, important to realise that everyone who accesses such and children’s and young people’s engagement in risky material on the web is an abuser, because accessing behaviours. Exposure to sexualised and violent imagery images of abuse is an inherent element of the process of has a particular effect on the development of young abuse. people’s attitudes to relationships. That is why one of In opening the debate, my hon. Friend the Member the commissioner’s main recommendations was for proper for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) talked about sex and relationship education to tackle attitudes premised the important work of the Child Exploitation and on pornography. Online Protection Centre, as did the Chair of the Home The logic is clear. With children being exposed to ever Affairs Committee. The work that CEOP does is unpleasant more graphic and extreme images online and through and complicated, but it has the expertise to profile social media, we should use schools as a forum to have offenders and understand the processes of abuse. However, an informed discussion with children about sex and it is being lost as a separate, dedicated agency and will relationships. Of course we want families to do that too, become part of the National Crime Agency. We have but many parents are asking for such discussions to be already lost its former head, Jim Gamble, and his part of the school curriculum as well. We should explain 20 years of experience in fighting abuse. He did not feel to children what constitutes consent and what constitutes that the new framework would protect the work that abuse. CEOP does. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee also raised concerns about its budget. I hope that the Claire Perry: Will the hon. Lady give way? Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice will reassure the House on that issue. Diana Johnson: I will not give way because the hon. Police forces up and down the country are attempting Lady was not present for most of the debate this to prevent abuse and to prosecute those who are involved. afternoon. However, they are having to deal with a 20% cut to the The Government repeatedly claim that good schools policing budget, which means that they are losing thousands are already providing good personal, social, health and of officers from the front line, as well as back-office economic education. That may be right in some schools, staff who investigate crimes and support victims. Will but they cannot continue to deny research that shows the Minister say whether he considers the work that is that the overwhelming majority of schools do not provide carried out in this area to be front-line policing? Although good PSHE. Yesterday, the House had the opportunity reported crime is falling overall, will he say where the to ensure that all schools provide such education, but 500,000 people who reportedly access child abuse images the Government blocked the measure. Shockingly, the online appear in the crime figures? Liberal Democrats voted against their own long-standing Dealing with technology for keeping our children party policy on PSHE being made statutory. safe is not always the forte of the House of Commons, It may be too early to talk about the long-term effects but I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member of witnessing pornography from a young age, but it is for Bishop Auckland, and many other Members, for not too early to talk about the current environment that their work on how we can utilise technology in the fight girls face at school. I pay tribute to the work of the End to keep children safe. Sometimes, that will mean working Violence Against Women coalition, and its Schools with the industry, and in many cases we are grateful for Safe 4 Girls campaign. It has highlighted the fact that the research it has done and the work in which it has one in three teenage girls has experienced sexual violence invested. As the motion points out, however, where the from a partner. In a survey of year nine children as part industry—particularly ISPs—do not respond, it is our of the From Boys to Men project, 40% of children role as law makers to make it act. The Government interviewed reported that hitting a partner was okay in must have their own technical advisers so that they do at least one of the circumstances highlighted. If we are not have to rely on the industry saying whether something serious about tackling child abuse, we must be serious 405 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 406 about tackling the climate in which children and young can take. For example, Google is a member of the IWF, people grow up, and the images to which they are and works to remove child abuse images as soon as it exposed. becomes aware of them. The IWF has recommended As well as stopping child abuse, we need to tackle that as a further deterrent its members return an error staged rape and child abuse—the so-called rape porn page notifying users that they have tried to access industry that depicts rape and child abuse and that, indecent images of children. because it is staged by actors who are over 18, is legal. Let me deal with as many of the individual points The End Violence Against Women coalition and the that have been made as I can. The Child Exploitation South London Rape Crisis centre have highlighted the and Online Protection Centre budget has been relatively material that is available. It includes: “Youngschoolgirls protected. More importantly, by modernising the structure abducted and cruelly raped. Hear her screams”, “Little and processes, and through the effective harnessing of schoolgirl raped by teacher”, “Tiny girl sleep rape” and other funding sources from outside the Government, “Girl raped at gun point”. One expert, Professor Clare CEOP has increased the number of people who work McGlynn of Durham university, has said: for it from 85 in November in 2010 to 130 currently. “It is undeniable that the proliferation and tolerance of such More people currently work in CEOP than at any time images and the messages they convey contributes to a cultural in its history. As its recent annual review illustrated, the climate where sexual violence is condoned.” centre is more productive than ever. Therefore, the line As my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland in the motion on the lack of resources available to the said in opening the debate, both Mark Bridger and police to tackle the problem is simply factually wrong. Stuart Hazell had viewed violent and misogynistic In 2012-13, CEOP safeguarded and protected 790 pornography before they murdered young girls. Labour children, an increase of 85% on the previous year, and is committed to looking at how to ban such violent the highest yearly figure since the centre launched in content. I hope the Minister joins the Opposition by 2006. That brings the total number of children who committing the Government to the principle of banning have been protected to 2,255 in that seven-year history. such material. Its chief executive, Peter Davies, has said: In a free society in the digital age, we cannot protect “This past year has not only seen increases in the number of young people from every danger they could encounter, reports to the Centre from the public and industry, but also a but we can tilt the odds in their favour. I urge all right large increase in the number of children CEOP has been able to hon. and hon. Members to support the motion. protect and safeguard from some of the worst offenders who seek to exploit our children.” CEOP is doing a good job. It is getting better and better 4.20 pm at doing that job, and it will get better still as part of the The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian National Crime Agency. There seems to be some Green): Protecting children online is of huge and growing misunderstanding on the Labour Benches. CEOP will importance. I thank all hon. Members for a useful and retain its identity within the NCA, but being part of the thought-provoking debate. I join the many tributes NCA will enable it to become even more effective. rightly paid to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes Many hon. Members, including the hon. Member for (Claire Perry) for her energy and work. The hon. Member Kingston upon Hull North in her winding-up speech, for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) was raised the issue of simulated pornographic images depicting uncharacteristically churlish in her remarks to my hon. rape. It goes without saying that rape is an abhorrent Friend. I will not reciprocate in kind by naming the crime and I understand the concern about the availability Labour Members who asked me to respond to points at of such content. We are meeting internet providers to the end of the debate who are not now in their seats. consider what more can be done. The issue will also be Along with hon. Members on both sides of the looked at by the new national group on sexual violence House, I am appalled by the continuing misuse of the against children and vulnerable people, which I am now internet in the various ways they have discussed. As the chairing. It is a very serious issue for the Government. debate has shown, we have made significant strides in Various hon. Members, including the hon. Member tackling the problem through collaborative work by the for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell), raised the issue of Government, law enforcement, the industry and charities. content that is characteristically accessed through mobile Of course, there is a great deal more to do. We are fully devices. Since 2005, mobile network operators have committed to tackling the creation, sale and possession signed up to a voluntary code to apply default filters for of child abuse images. pornography via mobile devices that are internet-enabled. The Government strongly support the work to prevent I hope that provides her and the hon. Member for access to such images. As my hon. Friend the Under- Swansea West (Geraint Davies) with some reassurance. Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport said in I mentioned the national group on sexual violence his opening speech, a lot of work has been done, with against children and vulnerable people. The issues we 98% of domestic broadband lines covered by blocking have been discussing today are part of its work, but based on the Internet Watch Foundation list. only a small part, as consideration of the recent cases of We note the findings in the IWF report regarding the organised predatory child abuse will be a significant difference in the speed of take-down of illegal images part of the group’s activity. In response to whether the between IWF members and ISP hosting providers that Home Office will be at the summit next week, I will be are not members. We urge all ISPs and hosting providers there in my role as chairman of that group. to join the IWF and improve their take-down times. We My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon expect all companies to do their utmost to protect our (Mr Streeter) asked about online video labelling. Ministers society from such images through implementing blocking have called on the industry to develop solutions by the using the IWF list and by taking any other action they end of this year to ensure that online videos, particularly 407 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 408

[Damian Green] Betts, Mr Clive Goodman, Helen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greatrex, Tom those that are likely to be sought out by children and Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate young people, carry advice on their age suitability and Blunkett, rh Mr David Greenwood, Lilian content. I hope that provides him with reassurance. The Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia British Board of Film Classification is on the board of Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter UKCCIS—the UK Council for Child Internet Safety—so Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David it is intimately involved with all our work on this matter. Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Various Members mentioned the effect on gaming online. Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David All major games consoles have parental controls that Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet allow parents to restrict online gaming by their children. Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom I am happy to reassure Members who asked whether Campbell, Mr Alan Havard, Mr Dai we were working closely with other EU countries. We Campbell, Mr Ronnie Healey, rh John are looking at several key areas on an EU-wide basis, Caton, Martin Hendrick, Mark including: better notice and take-down of child sex Champion, Sarah Hillier, Meg abuse images, better promotion of parental interest Chapman, Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Clark, Katy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon controls, better reporting and better privacy settings. Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hood, Mr Jim As has been said, the UK is a leader not just in Europe Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin but around the world in its response to this difficult Coaker, Vernon Hosie, Stewart matter, and I think other European countries would Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram acknowledge that. Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw There has been much discussion about parents. Although Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda the majority of parents feel that they have the information Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. they need to help their children stay safe online, 81% say Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan that they talk to their children about their internet use. Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Again, there is more to be done. There are good private Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham sector initiatives, such as Vodafone’s Digital Parenting Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen magazine and the “Parent Portal”website, which contains Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan useful online safety information. This September, the Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald ISPs will be launching a campaign to improve parents’ Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara awareness of internet safety. Cunningham, Sir Tony Kendall, Liz There has also been much discussion on what happens Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq in our schools. I should emphasise that the Secretary of Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David State’s guidance on teaching sex and relationships in Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark secondary schools will address key issues such as consent Darling, rh Mr Alistair Leslie, Chris David, Wayne Lewell-Buck, Emma within relationships. The discussion of online safety for Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan children, which already takes place in secondary schools, Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn will soon be switched to primary schools too. That De Piero, Gloria MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan should address the point about very young children Dobbin, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona accessing such material. Dobson, rh Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid I hope the House will see that a huge amount has Docherty, Thomas Mahmood, Shabana been done. We part company from the motion over the Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Malhotra, Seema thought that not much has been done. This is a very Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mann, John difficult area and we are doing a lot, and to suggest that Doughty, Stephen Marsden, Mr Gordon nothing much is happening is simply wrong. I hope, Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael therefore, that having listened to this very serious debate, Dromey, Jack McClymont, Gregg the Opposition will withdraw their motion, but if they Dugher, Michael McDonagh, Siobhain decide not to do so, I urge the House to reject the Durkan, Mark McDonald, Andy motion and endorse the effective action taken by the Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Alison Government on this important matter. Eagle, Maria McGovern, Jim Question put (Standing Order No. 31 (2)), That the Edwards, Jonathan McGuire, rh Mrs Anne original words stand part of the Question. Efford, Clive McKechin, Ann Elliott, Julie McKenzie, Mr Iain The House divided: Ayes 227, Noes 280. Ellman, Mrs Louise McKinnell, Catherine Division No. 27] [4.30 pm Engel, Natascha Meacher, rh Mr Michael Esterson, Bill Meale, Sir Alan AYES Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian Farrelly, Paul Miliband, rh Edward Abbott, Ms Diane Bailey, Mr Adrian Field, rh Mr Frank Miller, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Bain, Mr William Flint, rh Caroline Moon, Mrs Madeleine Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Balls, rh Ed Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Barron, rh Mr Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alexander, Heidi Bayley, Hugh Gardiner, Barry Morris, Grahame M. Ali, Rushanara Beckett, rh Margaret Gilmore, Sheila (Easington) Allen, Mr Graham Begg, Dame Anne Glass, Pat Mudie, Mr George Ashworth, Jonathan Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Mr Jim Austin, Ian Berger, Luciana Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Paul 409 Protecting Children Online12 JUNE 2013 Protecting Children Online 410

Murray, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Nandy, Lisa Smith, Nick Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Nash, Pamela Smith, Owen Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon O’Donnell, Fiona Spellar, rh Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Onwurah, Chi Straw, rh Mr Jack Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Osborne, Sandra Stringer, Graham Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Owen, Albert Stuart, Ms Gisela Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Pearce, Teresa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Pound, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, Emily Fallon, rh Michael Leadsom, Andrea Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Turner, Karl Farron, Tim Lee, Jessica Reed, Mr Jamie Twigg, Derek Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Reed, Mr Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John Reynolds, Emma Vaz, rh Keith Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Reynolds, Jonathan Vaz, Valerie Freer, Mike Leigh, Mr Edward Riordan, Mrs Linda Walley, Joan Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Ritchie, Ms Margaret Watts, Mr Dave Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Angus Weir, Mr Mike Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Garnier, Sir Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rotheram, Steve Whitehead, Dr Alan Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Roy, Mr Frank Williams, Hywel Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Roy, Lindsay Williamson, Chris George, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Ruane, Chris Wilson, Sammy Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Winnick, Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Sarwar, Anas Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Glen, John Macleod, Mary Sawford, Andy Wishart, Pete Goodwill, Mr Robert Main, Mrs Anne Seabeck, Alison Woodcock, John Gove, rh Michael Maude, rh Mr Francis Graham, Richard May, rh Mrs Theresa Shannon, Jim Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Sharma, Mr Virendra Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Wright, David Sheerman, Mr Barry Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Wright, Mr Iain Sheridan, Jim Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Shuker, Gavin Tellers for the Ayes: Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Simpson, David Tom Blenkinsop and Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Julie Hilling Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria NOES Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Adams, Nigel Buckland, Mr Robert Hancock, Mr Mike Mordaunt, Penny Afriyie, Adam Burley, Mr Aidan Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Amess, Mr David Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Andrew, Stuart Burrowes, Mr David Harrington, Richard Morris, David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burstow, rh Paul Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Bacon, Mr Richard Burt, Lorely Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Baker, Norman Byles, Dan Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Baker, Steve Cable, rh Vince Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Baldry, Sir Tony Cairns, Alun Hayes, rh Mr John Murray, Sheryll Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Barclay, Stephen Carmichael, Neil Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Baron, Mr John Carswell, Mr Douglas Hemming, John Norman, Jesse Barwell, Gavin Cash, Mr William Henderson, Gordon Nuttall, Mr David Bebb, Guto Chishti, Rehman Hendry, Charles Offord, Dr Matthew Beith, rh Sir Alan Clappison, Mr James Herbert, rh Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Bellingham, Mr Henry Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Opperman, Guy Benyon, Richard Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hollingbery, George Ottaway, Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Parish, Neil Berry, Jake Coffey, Dr Thérèse Holloway, Mr Adam Patel, Priti Bingham, Andrew Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris Pawsey, Mark Binley, Mr Brian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Horwood, Martin Penrose, John Birtwistle, Gordon Crabb, Stephen Howarth, Sir Gerald Perry, Claire Blackwood, Nicola Crockart, Mike Howell, John Phillips, Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Crouch, Tracey Hughes, rh Simon Pincher, Christopher Bottomley, Sir Peter Davies, Glyn Huppert, Dr Julian Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradley, Karen Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Pritchard, Mark Brady, Mr Graham de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Pugh, John Brake, rh Tom Dinenage, Caroline James, Margot Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Randall, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reckless, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Redwood, rh Mr John Brokenshire, James Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Rees-Mogg, Jacob Browne, Mr Jeremy Duddridge, James Jones, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Bruce, Fiona Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Robathan, rh Mr Andrew 411 Protecting Children Online 12 JUNE 2013 412

Robertson, rh Hugh Tapsell, rh Sir Peter EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs Rogerson, Dan Teather, Sarah Rosindell, Andrew Thornton, Mike Rudd, Amber Timpson, Mr Edward Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I inform Ruffley, Mr David Tomlinson, Justin the House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment Russell, Sir Bob Truss, Elizabeth in the name of the Prime Minister. Rutley, David Turner, Mr Andrew Sanders, Mr Adrian Uppal, Paul 4.44 pm Sandys, Laura Vaizey, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee Vara, Mr Shailesh Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Selous, Andrew Vickers, Martin (Lab):I beg to move, Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Charles That this House believes that amongst other EU police, justice Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Robin and home affairs measures, the UK should remain part of the Shepherd, Sir Richard Wallace, Mr Ben European Arrest Warrant, the Schengen Information System II, Simmonds, Mark Watkinson, Dame Angela Joint Investigations Teams, EU Council decision 2000/375/JHA Skidmore, Chris Weatherley, Mike on combating internet child pornography, EU Council decision Smith, Miss Chloe Webb, Steve 2002/348/JHA on international football security co-operation, Smith, Henry Wharton, James Exchange of Criminal Records and Europol; supports reform to Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather improve the operation of the European Arrest Warrant; and Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris notes that without these measures the UK’s efforts to fight crime Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig and ensure internal national security would be adversely affected. Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittingdale, Mr John Before speaking to the motion, I want to welcome the Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill agreement of the Jordanian Parliament today to the Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark treaty that the Home Secretary has negotiated, which Stevenson, John Williams, Roger we hope will speed the departure of Abu Qatada. Stewart, Bob Williams, Stephen Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin Today’s debate is about fighting cross-border crime. Stewart, Rory Willott, Jenny It is about whether the Home Secretary and the Prime Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob Minister are going to back the police and victims in the Stride, Mel Wright, Jeremy fight against cross-border crime or whether they are Stuart, Mr Graham Wright, Simon going to back the Eurosceptics on their own Back Stunell, rh Andrew Young, rh Sir George Benches who oppose things simply because they have Sturdy, Julian the word “Europe” in the title. It is about whether the Swales, Ian Tellers for the Noes: Prime Minister and Home Secretary are prepared to Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Mark Hunter and show leadership in the national interest, as Downing Swinson, Jo Mr Robert Syms street claimed it would do in last week’s briefing, or whether they will cave in again. It is about what the Question accordingly negatived. Government believe is or is not important in the fight against crime. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Inow We are still in the dark about the Government’s view have to announce the result of the deferred Division on on European co-operation, justice and home affairs. We the question relating to the Employment Tribunals and all know that crime does not stop at the channel; the Employment Appeal Tribunal Fees Order 2013. The criminals do not stop at our borders. There are an Ayes were 272 and the Noes were 209, so the Question estimated 3,600 organised gangs operating across Europe, was agreed to. and they are involved in things such as drugs, human [The Division list is published at the end of today’s trafficking, online child exploitation and theft. We know, debates.] too, that as people trade and travel more than ever, cross-border crime is likely to keep increasing—whether we are inside the European Union or outside it. The police need to be able to keep up. That means they have to be able to deal with European police forces and they have to have a legal framework within which to operate, pursue and share evidence on a legal basis.

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Once again, the Labour party is banging on about Europe. Since it always seems to do so in this place, do the Labour party and the right hon. Lady support invoking the block opt-out? Yes or no?

Yvette Cooper: We have said very clearly that we think a blanket opt-out, which means losing things such as the European arrest warrant or important data co-operation, would present a serious problem. Let me set this out in today’s debate. We know, for example, of the case of an 18-year-old student who was beaten until her eye sockets shattered in an attempted rape in Ireland. Her attacker, Arunas Cervinskas, left Ireland for London, but was returned by the Met three weeks after his 413 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 414

European arrest warrant was issued. He is now serving Andrea Leadsom: The right hon. Lady keeps talking an eight-year sentence in an Irish prison. That was the about these awful situations as though the only possibility result of the arrest warrant and European police were some Europe-wide collective agreement under the co-operation. jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Does she What is the Government’s position on this? Last year, not accept that it is perfectly possible for there to be the Prime Minister said: extradition agreements between different countries that “we will be exercising that opt-out”; do not become subject to the European Court? the Deputy Prime Minister then said, “No, we won’t”; Yvette Cooper: It is indeed possible for there to be a and the Home Secretary said that huge number of extradition agreements that take long “the Government’s current thinking is that we will opt out of all periods to negotiate. Let me give the hon. Lady one pre-Lisbon police and criminal justice measures and then negotiate”— example. Before we had the European arrest warrant—when [Official Report, 15 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 35.] we simply had separately negotiated extradition to opt back in. We know that Conservative Back Benchers arrangements—it took 10 years to extradite a suspected have made their view clear: they want to opt out of the terrorist from Britain to France. That is the consequence lot and do not want to opt back in to any of them. A of the kind of haphazard framework that the hon. Lady letter signed by more than 100 Tory MPs says we should wants us to adopt. Meanwhile, we have a European opt out of 130 of them. They certainly want out of the arrest warrant that allows decisions to be made swiftly, European arrest warrant, but what does the Home and to be made in the interests of the victims of crime. Secretary think? We have silence from her on what she thinks. Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con) rose—

Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I wonder why Yvette Cooper: I certainly cannot resist the temptation the right hon. Lady’s party negotiated the opt-out in the to give way to the hon. Gentleman. first place. Mr Cash: The right hon. Lady may recall several Yvette Cooper: The Government were given plenty of cases in which British citizens have been caught up in time to look at all the measures, see whether any of arrest warrants, including one in Staffordshire, where them were redundant and make up their minds. Instead, someone was found guilty in absentia and given a they are leaving it to the last minute, dithering and monumentally long prison sentence although he was putting at risk important measures in the fight against not remotely connected with the murder concerned. crime, creating immense uncertainty for our police forces. There are serious questions to be asked about whether They are still not telling us what their view is on some of the judiciary, as it is described, is actually run by politicians the most important measures of all—data sharing, criminal in certain cases. records or the European arrest warrant, for example. Yvette Cooper: The hon. Gentleman has made an Several hon. Members rose— important point. When the European Union Committee Yvette Cooper: I cannot resist the temptation to give in the House of Lords was considering precisely these way to the right hon. Member for Wokingham issues, and discussing cases in which there had been (Mr Redwood). allegations of injustice, it commented: “these arose from the consequences of extradition, including long Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am very periods of pre-trial detention in poor prison conditions, which grateful that the right hon. Lady is so attentive. Why could occur under any alternative system of extradition. Relying upon alternative extradition arrangements is highly unlikely to does she not understand that what we want is to have address the criticisms directed at the EAW and would inevitably democratic accountability to the British people through render the extradition process more protracted and cumbersome, this House of Commons? We want these things done by potentially undermining public safety.” agreement between our country and the European Union, but not under European law. Her party gave away Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con) rose— 138 vetoes over crucial policy areas, which makes it very difficult to govern this country democratically. Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I must make a bit of progress first. Yvette Cooper: I wonder whether the right hon. We have been struggling to find out what the Government Gentleman is really aware of the detailed implications are actually doing, and what their position actually is of what he has said. He is arguing for a huge number of on these important measures. Today’s edition of The different bureaucratic arrangements with every country, Guardian gave us some clues. It states that the Prime whether on extradition or on legal frameworks. Let me Minister is expected to opt into 30 to 40 measures, that give him an example of how the current framework a deal is being done by the Chief Secretary to the operates. James Hurley, who was convicted of killing a Treasury and the Minister for Government Policy, the police officer and escaped from custody, was returned right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), who two years ago under a European arrest warrant, and is sits in the Cabinet Office, and that now back in a British prison. “the Tories want to opt back in to no more than 29” Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con) so that they can say that they opted out of 100. rose— “The Lib Dems, who had been pressing for… 70…recently settled on a figure of about 45. Yvette Cooper: I will give way, but then I must make a Ministers are planning to split the difference between 45 and bit of progress. 29, meaning the coalition will sign up to about 35 of the measures.” 415 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 416

[Yvette Cooper] ago. He had escaped from court after being convicted some years ago, but when the Spanish police found him This, it appears, is a numbers game. It is no way to they were able to arrest him straight away under a decide on serious issues that affect the fight against European arrest warrant. Let us turn back the clock to crime and future justice for victims. However, we think Ronnie Knight, the east end armed robber who fled to it excellent that the Government have handed over Spain before the days of the European arrest warrant. negotiations to the right hon. Member for West Dorset. He did not have to change his appearance or his identity We recall that the last time the Prime Minister tried or hide behind the walls of a villa; he could wander that, in relation to Leveson, the Cabinet Office Minister around and do as he liked, because we had no means of came over to our place and allowed us to draft the getting the Spanish police to arrest him or the Spanish policy. We are quite happy to do that again if the courts to send him home. He was able to open an Indian Government cannot sort it out. restaurant and a nightclub, ignoring British justice and the victims of crime. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I realise that my right hon. Friend would quite like the right hon. Member Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The right hon. for West Dorset (Mr Letwin)to be involved in these Lady is absolutely right to highlight the importance of discussions, but I am a bit perplexed by the situation. the European arrest warrant and we in the Liberal Such an important question should really involve the Democrats wholeheartedly want to see it kept. Does she Home Secretary. Does my right hon. Friend not agree agree that there have been cases in which it has been that the Home Secretary should be there making the misused and that it could be improved by a proportionality deals, rather than the Cabinet Office and the Treasury? test and the new Eurobail proposals, which could avoid problems such as Mr Symeou having to spend time in Yvette Cooper: I agree with my right hon. Friend. The Greece? We must ensure that it works properly. issue is immensely important and there must be a question about where the Home Secretary is in these discussions. Where is the voice for British policing? Where is the Yvette Cooper: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. voice for law enforcement? Where is the voice for British Some aspects of the warrant should be improved and victims? If she is not being heard on behalf of the police reformed and there are other areas of European and of victims, she is letting them down. co-operation that we should seek to improve. For example, we should ensure that the European arrest warrant is Let me consider some of the key measures that the not used for too many minor crimes. We should also Government are threatening to opt out of. The police work with other European countries to ensure that have said that the most important to them is the European when people become victims or suspects of crime abroad, arrest warrant, which gives them the power to arrest they can be assured of proper legal support and justice. people here who are wanted for crimes back home, gives But it is still better to stay in and argue for reform than the courts the power to send them swiftly home to face to pull out of the European arrest warrant when it is so justice, means that police forces abroad will act to arrest important to our police and to victims. suspected criminals who have fled from justice here and means that courts across Europe can send those suspects The Prime Minister has said in the past that the swiftly back. European arrest warrant is highly objectionable, yet the Association of Chief Police Officers has said that opting The teacher who ran off to France with a pupil was out of it means arrested under the warrant and returned within weeks. The man who tried to blow up the tube at Shepherd’s “higher costs, more offenders evading justice and increased risk Bush was quickly returned from Italy. However, as I to public safety.” told the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire What is the Home Secretary’s view? Are we in or out of (Andrea Leadsom), it took 10 years of legal wrangling the arrest warrant? In or out? In the last year alone, to send a suspected terrorist back to France before the Britain sent 900 people back to other countries under European arrest warrant was introduced. an arrest warrant, 95% of whom were foreign nationals. The Home Secretary makes great play of complaining Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will that she cannot send back enough foreign criminals, but my right hon. Friend resist the urges of the Government now she wants to make it harder to send back people parties to play the game of trying to broker how many suspected of serious crimes abroad—why? measures they can opt in or out of? She is absolutely The European arrest warrant—in or out? The prisoner right to raise the issue of counter-terrorism. Is she transfer framework—in or out? That is the one that aware that about 10% of the work of Europol is related means we can transfer prisoners back to their home to counter-terrorism? Is that not the compelling reason country without their consent. What about the Home why we must keep these arrangements in place? Secretary’s position on joint investigation teams, which have helped to stop a human trafficking ring bringing Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right, because young Czech women into Britain for prostitution and terrorists do not respect international borders; they rape. Thirty-three victims were found and nine people work across them. We know that many of the growing were convicted as a result of a joint investigation team. threats to this country involve cross-border crime or A similar operation undertaken with the Romanian terrorism and that is why the police and those who seek police stopped a gang trafficking children into the UK to protect us must have the powers and tools to work and meant that victims were protected. So joint investigation across borders. teams—in or out? What about sharing criminal records? Let me give another example of the use of the European The UK has received more than 500 notifications of arrest warrant. The Salford armed robber, Andrew Moran, British citizens convicted in other EU member states was found hiding in a villa in Alicante just four weeks who need to go on the sex offenders register here at 417 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 418 home. I am happy to give way to the Home Secretary if jeopardise the European arrest warrant, the data sharing she will stand up and tell us whether she supports the and many of the other measures that I have set out sharing of information about sexual offences so that today. people can be put on the sex offenders register here. Yes Two different positions are coming from Government or no? In or out? [Interruption.] Again we have silence Members at the moment. We have a simple position from the Home Secretary, who cannot tell us, whether it from the Back Benchers, which is that they just want to be on sharing criminal records or on the European opt out of everything, and we have a blank sheet of arrest warrant, what the Government’s position is on paper from the Front Benchers, whereby they seem to these vital measures. hint that they might opt back into a few things but they will not tell us which. I can tell the House very clearly Mr Raab: The Opposition motion refers to eight that, on the European arrest warrant, we should be in. specific measures out of the 135 or so, so I just want to We think that we should be in when it comes to proposals clarify the Labour party’s position: is it advocating the to take account of foreign convictions in our court exercise of the block opt-out and then selectively opting cases, and when it comes to working with other countries back in, or is it saying that there should be no exercise on international genocide, yet we have heard nothing of the block opt-out at all? from Government Members on which of these vital Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary has not yet told measures they support, and on whether they have any us whether she actually has a workable way to do that, workable way of opting back into the proposals. and we wait to see whether she has a workable way to The House of Lords European Union Committee deliver that at all. She has said that she wants a blanket looked at all this in some detail, and it says: opt-out, but most of her Back Benchers want to opt out “The European Arrest Warrant is the single most important of of the lot and not opt back into anything. Our clear the measures which are subject to the opt-out decision…opting view is that we should not have a blanket opt-out that out would have significant adverse negative repercussions for the puts at risk the European arrest warrant and the crucial internal security of the UK and the administration of criminal things needed for the fight against crime. justice in the UK”, On criminal records, is the Home Secretary in or out? so why are the Government doing this? The truth is that Again we have no answer from her. Sharing alerts on none of these questions is about crime or justice. All the suspected criminals, or trafficking or kidnapping victims, points that Government Members are raising are about crossing borders—in or out? Minimum standards for Europe, and the anxiety and hysteria about Europe tackling online child exploitation—in or out? Information among Back Benchers. Those Back Benchers want to sharing on football hooligans—in or out? Co-operating ditch all European crime and security co-operation, on seizing criminals’ assets—in or out? Taking account which the police say is vital, and the work that children’s of foreign convictions in court cases—in or out? Working charities say helps victims. with other countries on dealing with international genocide The Government’s amendment to the motion says and war crimes—in or out? that they are looking at the issue, but that we should not worry because there will be a vote before any opt-out is Andrea Leadsom rose— exercised. It would be helpful if they could clarify whether there will be any vote on opting back in again, Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. Lady if she or whether they are simply planning to have a vote on can tell me about any of those. I understand that her opting out. They should also tell us today whether they view is to opt out of all of them and then simply on know if they will be able to opt back into any of the each measure to negotiate individually a separate agreement measures, and which ones they think are so important with every single country. That is her position. Perhaps that they should not be put at risk. she can tell me whether she has had any success persuading the Home Secretary of her position or whether the The truth is that this is not about crime; this is about Home Secretary simply does not have a view on any of politics. This is not about helping victims; it is about these matters. division on Europe. For the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary to give in to their Back Benchers, who Andrea Leadsom: The right hon. Lady can always simply want to oppose all things European, would be intervene on me when it is my debate and my motion, shameful. It would be ignoring the evidence and expert but this is her motion, so I am asking her something. advice. It would be helping criminals and betraying Presumably she is aware that the only alternative is to victims. That is why we are holding this debate and this opt out en bloc—that was the negotiation that her vote today. Government agreed when they were in power. So does I want to remind the House what this is really all she intend to opt out en bloc and then opt back into about. I have an e-mail from Beatrice Jones—the mother certain measures—if so, which ones? Or does she not of Moira Jones—who set up the Moira Fund to help intend to opt out at all? She is speaking as though we families. She first got in contact with my right hon. have the alternative of simply picking and choosing, but Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and she knows, or should know, that that is not the case. Hessle (Alan Johnson), the former Home Secretary, who passed on her concerns to me, and I have spoken to Yvette Cooper: I think that the hon. Lady in not in her. She says: fact clear about what the position is, because she does not know what she is actually going to be able to opt “I have been appalled to read that a group of Tory MPs is putting pressure on the Prime Minister to use his right to pull out back into. When Denmark tried to opt out and then of EU crime and policing, including the EU arrest warrant. You opt back into a series of measures half its requests may remember that my beloved daughter Moira Jones was assaulted, to opt back into measures were refused. That is why abducted, and savagely raped and murdered by an EU national we do not believe that anything should be done to who was allowed to come here in spite of a long criminal record 419 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 420

[Yvette Cooper] to the Government at all levels asking them to list those measures that they intend to opt into. We have the of violence. He fled the country but because of the dedication and practical problem of how that will be done. Will we be determination of Strathclyde police along with the cooperation able to vote to opt in or opt out knowing exactly and in of the Slovakian police, he was arrested and extradited back to detail what the Government will then opt back into this country. We know that because of much work at the Home before the vote is taken? Office, with the Border Agency, and with the implementation of the ECRIS”— the European criminal records information system— Mrs May: Yes. I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that it is indeed the Government’s intention to provide “there is more cooperation and information between a much greater number of EU states….We want it to go much further so Parliament with a list of the measures that we wish to that another murder like Moira’s cannot occur and we did think opt back into, so Parliament will have that before it that things were moving slowly in the right direction. votes on the matter. To read of this backward step is simply awful. As long as EU nationals are allowed to freely enter the UK and vice versa, then Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The EU police cooperation is essential for the safety of all. The Government have repeatedly said that they want to current system needs further development not to be disbanded. engage with Select Committees as part of the process, Clearly there are those around who have no conception of but still, many months after they were promised, we do what it is to lose a daughter in truly horrific circumstances. We not have the explanatory memorandums, and Committees continue to struggle and I have persisted in trying to bring about are not in a position to plan into their work the change…But there are things that with the best will in the world, we cannot do….If there is anyway you can do anything to consideration that will be required to inform the vote highlight our concerns, I implore you in Moira’s name to do what that the Home Secretary has just referred to. you can.” That is why we are holding this debate today. Mrs May: I recognise the point that my right hon. Friend makes. We will supply the Select Committees with explanatory memorandums and the list of measures 5.8 pm that the Government propose to opt back into, and we The Secretary of State for the Home Department will also discuss with relevant Committees how the vote (Mrs Theresa May): I beg to move an amendment, to will be taken in Parliament. leave out from ‘House’ to end and add ‘believes that the decision on exercising the UK’s opt out from EU Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Given the importance former third pillar measures should be taken in the national of the European arrest warrant, to avoid any confusion interest, with consideration given to how a measure contributes to or misunderstanding and to achieve maximum clarity, public safety and security, whether practical co-operation is will the Home Secretary say here and now that it is the underpinned by the measure, and whether there would be a Government’s intention to opt into the European arrest detrimental impact on such co-operation if pursued by other warrant because she recognises that it is so important to mechanisms; and welcomes the commitment made by the Minister for Europe on 20 January 2011 to a vote in both Houses of this country? Parliament before the Government makes a formal decision on whether it wishes to opt out.’. Mrs May: I will announce what the Government will Let me first set out some of the background to this do in relation to the European arrest warrant at the important issue, because judging from the speech that time that I list those measures that we wish to opt into we have just heard, there seems to be some confusion or not rejoin, so the hon. Gentleman will just have to be among Opposition Members. Under the terms of the a little bit more patient. Lisbon treaty, which the Opposition signed up to, the United Kingdom must decide by the end of May 2014 Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I whether we opt out of, or remain bound by, roughly 130 hope that part of the consultation will be with the EU police and criminal justice measures that were devolved Parliaments, because the Home Secretary will adopted before the Lisbon treaty came into force. I know of the very real concern from the Scottish provided a full list of those measures to the House on Government and from Police Scotland about the loss of 21 May. The Government are required, under the treaty, the European arrest warrant. The Justice Secretary said to reach a final decision by 31 May 2014, with that that could have appalling consequences for Scottish decision taking effect on 1 December 2014. justice. Will the Home Secretary make sure that she Let me also set out the commitment that this Government consults properly and listens carefully to what Scotland have made on this matter. On 20 January 2011 my right has to say on the matter? hon. Friend the Minister for Europe set out in a written ministerial statement that a vote would be held in both Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman has slightly pre-empted Houses of Parliament before the Government make a something that I was going to say a little later in my formal decision on whether they wish to opt out. That speech, so I will bring it forward in answer to his remains the Government position and I am happy question. Following my announcement in October, today to reiterate our commitment to hold a vote on Ministers have engaged with the devolved Administrations this matter. That is why I urge the House to reject the and their operational partners. The Minister responsible Opposition motion as premature, and support the for security has visited both Scotland and Northern Government’s amendment. Ireland. There is, of course, a particular issue in relation to Northern Ireland and we are aware of the importance Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): of taking into account any implications that the 2014 The Home Secretary knows that there has been considerable decision might have for policing, given the land border correspondence from the European Scrutiny Committee with the Republic of Ireland, and we will continue to 421 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 422 work with both the Northern Ireland Executive and the organisation, and I know that she is a supporter of Rob Irish Government to ensure that those matters are fully Wainwright and Europol. Is she now in a position to considered. sign up to that new regulation?

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Have Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman is right that the negotiations on the measures that the Home Secretary Commission has brought forward some new proposals hopes to opt back into commenced or is she planning to relating to Europol. Some parts of the proposals cause wait until December 2014 and then seek to opt into concern to the Government, and indeed those of most various measures? Has she had any indication which member states across the European Union, but there ones our European partners will accept? will be a debate in this House—at the beginning of July, I believe—on whether the Government propose to opt Mrs May: I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman back into that measure. The scrutiny is continuing, but might have listened to the remarks I made earlier in my obviously the Government will make clear our position speech, when I made it clear that a decision by the when the debate takes place. Government has to be taken by 31 May 2014, while 1 December 2014 is the date by which the opt-out takes Charlie Elphicke: Does my right hon. Friend share final effect, so by definition any negotiations in relation my suspicion that what is really going on here is that the to opt-in must take place before that takes effect. Labour party would love to sign up to all this European This is an important decision, and not one that we justice agenda but dares not say so because it is frightened should rush into lightly, despite the entreaties of the of the UK Independence party? Opposition. I want to make it clear that no final decision has been made on this matter. Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It was not at all clear from the shadow Home Secretary’s Yvette Cooper: Under what circumstances does the speech what the Labour party’s position is on this. Does Home Secretary think it would be acceptable to stay out it wish to exercise the opt-out it negotiated, or does it of the European arrest warrant? wish to be bound by all the measures? We are at a loss to know where it stands on the issue. I am also at a loss to Mrs May: I will move on to the principles that the see what she can object to in the approach I have just set Government will follow when looking at each and every out about the policies and principles we will follow in measure and considering whether to opt back in. In her looking at every single measure. It involves exercising a speech, the right hon. Lady made something of an issue treaty right that was negotiated by the previous about the timetable and asked why we had not yet come Government. Why on earth did they bother negotiating to a decision. I refer her to the remarks of the former it if they were not going to use it? The Labour party, Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, in the debate on the when in government, laid the paving stones, but it Lisbon treaty in 2008. She said that criticises us for walking down them. I am at even more “on the whole body of police, criminal and judicial measures that of a loss in trying to untangle the Opposition’s position are transferred, it is our decision—six months before that five-year from the confusion of today’s debate. period finishes—as to whether we want to continue in those measures, if they have not been renegotiated or repealed during Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): On the that time. We will make that decision on the basis of whether subject of the Labour party, I think that we need to continuing in those measures, with ECJ jurisdiction, is in the reassure the public, because the shadow Home Secretary national interest. We have negotiated the ability to make that decision and we have negotiated that transitional period.”—[Official gave a series of grisly examples of murders, people Report, 29 January 2008; Vol. 471, c. 175.] being beaten up and eye sockets being staved in. The implication is that if we are not part of the European That is precisely what this Government are following. arrest warrant none of the perpetrators would be dealt My statement on 15 October last year set out the with. Can we at least have a sensible debate and say that Government’s approach: we intend to opt out of all those people could be dealt with after reciprocal police and criminal justice measures that pre-date the arrangements are made? Lisbon treaty and then negotiate with the Commission and other member states to opt back into those individual Mrs May: My hon. Friend is correct that we have measures that it is in our national interest to rejoin. extradition treaties with other countries that are not That remains the Government’s position. members of the European Union, and we had extradition As I explained in a letter to the Chair of the European arrangements before the European arrest warrant came Scrutiny Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for into place. However, as I set out earlier, we will look at Stone (Mr Cash), in November last year, we will consider each measure to determine whether it contributes to how a measure contributes to public safety and security, public safety and security, whether practical co-operation whether practical co-operation is underpinned by it, is underpinned by it and whether there would be a and whether there would be a detrimental impact on detrimental impact on such co-operation if it was pursued such co-operation if it was pursued by other means. We by other means. I think that those are entirely sensible will also consider the impact of each measure on our principles on which to base the proposals that the civil rights and traditional liberties. Government will bring forward in due course.

Keith Vaz: The Home Affairs Committee certainly Mr Redwood: Will the Home Secretary also take into looks forward to receiving the list when the Home account the impact that all these things have on British Secretary has it ready. There is a measure on her desk at democracy? Some of us are deeply worried that Ministers the moment concerning Europol that is not related to do not have enough powers and cannot be accountable the opt-in/opt-out issue. It is very important that we to this House because they can be trumped by perverse sign up to it, because it affects the governance of that European Court of Justice judgments. 423 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 424

Mrs May: My right hon. Friend is right. In looking at 2014 decision under which, arguably, member states are these decisions, we have to bear in mind the fact of ECJ still obliged to update their contributions to it. We do jurisdiction, which will now be applicable to these measures not see any reason to subject this measure to formal but was not when they were originally established. I enforcement powers. Some other measures have not have to say that one of the more interesting exchanges I been implemented and doing so would require considerable have seen this afternoon raised the idea of the shadow time and money. Not being ready by 1 December 2014 Home Secretary being tempted by my right hon. Friend. would immediately open the UK up to substantial risk [Interruption.] I think that I had better move swiftly on. of infraction and the very real risk of being fined We are now in complete confusion as to whether the millions of pounds. Opposition want to exercise the opt-out and whether they want to change anything about our justice and Michael Connarty rose— home affairs arrangements. If they do not want to change anything, why does their motion refer to reforming Mrs May: I am being very indulgent to the hon. the European arrest warrant? In their motion they list Gentleman, but I give way. seven measures that they think we should be opting back into, but the right hon. Lady raised other measures Michael Connarty: The Home Secretary is well aware that she implied we should opt back into. She talked of the position. In fact, her own Government are making about party politics. I am afraid that the only party quite a hue and cry about the fact that the European politics lie in calling this debate, and it is the Opposition Commission can strike out any of these things as redundant who want to put narrow politics before the national and has been doing so for the past three or four years. interest. Regarding this nonsense about being trapped in some The shadow Home Secretary suggests that our approach, directory that does not exist any more, it is very simple: which her own Government set in train, will play into the European Commission can simply strike it out, as it the hands of criminals. That is an outrageous accusation. has on many occasions. She might like to consult the As Home Secretary, I am absolutely clear in my duty to Europe Minister, who could inform her of the facts. protect the United Kingdom against crime and terrorism and to keep our borders secure. She said that crime does Mrs May: I am well aware of what is and what is not not stop at the borders, and she is absolutely right. That in the list of the 2014 decision that we have to take, and is exactly why this Government are creating the National the measure that I have referred to is in it. Crime Agency, which will be a powerful crime-fighting body that deals with crime across borders, particularly Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary is right to refer serious organised and complex crime. The UK is a to that particular directory as being defunct. Arguably, sovereign nation, and we must not carelessly hand over therefore, it is relatively harmless. If she has such a more and more powers to the European Commission or precise view on that measure, will she tell us her view on the European Court of Justice. the European arrest warrant? That, not all the defunct It is clearly important that law enforcers have the directories, is the central subject of the motion and the tools they need to work with our European neighbours most important measure at stake. ACPO has said how and protect the British public. That is why we have been crucial it is and it has been used in countless different listening to the views of law enforcement and other criminal cases. Why does the Home Secretary seem to criminal justice agencies on this matter. The Justice be the only person who does not have a view on the Secretary and I have met representatives from the European arrest warrant? Association of Chief Police Offices, the Serious Organised Crime Agency, the Metropolitan Police, Her Majesty’s Mrs May: Sadly, the right hon. Lady does not seem Revenue and Customs, the National Crime Agency, the to understand what the decision is about and, therefore, security services, and the Serious Fraud Office, as well what her debate is about. Her debate is about the fact as the Director of Public Prosecutions. We are listening that her Government negotiated a situation in which we to, and taking seriously, what those on the front line can either opt out of all the measures and then try to have to say. As I said, we have also had discussions with opt back in, or opt into all the measures. the devolved Administrations. But this is a decision for I have been very open that it would not be appropriate the Government to take, and we will not absolve ourselves to opt into any measure that we think would take of that responsibility by delegating the decision to considerable time and money. We will not be in a others as the Opposition apparently wish us to. position to immediately rejoin Prüm, which requires As I have said to this House previously, under the member states to allow the reciprocal searching of their terms of the treaty signed by Labour, the UK, as my databases for DNA profiles, vehicle registration data hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire and fingerprints, because implementing it fully will take (Andrea Leadsom) said, cannot pick and choose the years and require substantial funding. The previous measures from which we wish to opt out. The shadow Government estimated that it would cost more than Home Secretary may well prefer that we could, but £30 million back in 2007—that figure may well be thanks to her party’s negotiation we can only opt out en higher now—and they subsequently did nothing to masse and then seek to rejoin individual measures. implement it. Operational experience shows that some of the pre-Lisbon The shadow Home Secretary’s spurious accusations measures are useful, while some are less so and some are about the Government’s European policy seem to be a now entirely defunct. For example, one measure establishes cover for the confusion on her own Benches. I note that a directory on organised crime competences that was in response to a number of interventions she did not closed by Europol in February 2012. Although the clearly state what her own policy is. It seems to be to directory is closed, it remains a measure subject to the negotiate an opt-out but not exercise it and to sign up to 425 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 426 costly measures such as Prüm but not implement them. increase in sham marriages involving EEA nationals. That is not the sort of leadership that the United However, the UK cannot fix that issue alone, despite Kingdom needs in Europe. there being agreement on both sides of the House. Let me be clear: I am not saying that there is never a Wayne David: The Home Secretary says that she has role for the European Court of Justice. If that was the had discussions with ACPO. What advice did it give case, we would never opt into any new measures. However, her? as a question of policy, we need carefully to consider the Court’s ability to interfere in our criminal justice Mrs May: ACPO, as it has made clear to Committees system and weigh that against any benefits that the of this House, has set out those measures that it feels measure may bring. will be useful in a policing sense. There is absolutely no secret about what ACPO has made clear. As the shadow Home Secretary has said on quite a few occasions, the opt-out decision involves the European Mr Raab: It may help the Home Secretary to know arrest warrant. I know that that measure is of particular that in its submission to the House of Lords European interest to many Members. Let me start by refuting the Union Committee, ACPO reckoned that only 13 of the fatuous suggestion that we would consider opting out 135 measures were vital for law enforcement. Is she of it simply because it has the word “European” in its aware of that and does it not cast a shadow on the title. The Government are looking at each measure on spurious law enforcement claims of the Opposition? its merits and nothing else. When the case is made that a measure is in our national interest, we will participate in Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Indeed, I it. As I have said previously, we will consider how each believe that ACPO went on to say that 55 of the measure contributes to public safety and security; whether measures had no practical effect whatsoever. practical co-operation is underpinned by it; and whether there would be a detrimental impact on such co-operation if we pursued it by other mechanisms before making a Dr Huppert: ACPO said a number of things. It also final decision. The European arrest warrant is no different said that opting out of the European arrest warrant in that respect. “would result in fewer extraditions, longer delays, higher costs, more offenders evading justice and increased risk to public safety.” The arrest warrant has had some success in streamlining We should take all of ACPO’s advice, not just some the extradition process within the EU. The shadow of it. Home Secretary referred to the arrest last month of Andrew Moran, one of Britain’s most wanted fugitives, Mrs May: I say to my hon. Friend that, given that I by the Spanish police. However, as I set out in my have not published a list, he is not in a position to know statement in October, there have also been problems. which parts of ACPO’s advice I have listened to or not. The Government are concerned about the disproportionate What I have said is that I have listened to ACPO’s use of the arrest warrant for trivial offences and its advice and it is absolutely clear that it thinks that a very potential use for action in the United Kingdom in limited number of measures are beneficial to policing relation to activity that is not considered to be a crime and that a significant number are of no practical benefit in the UK. We also have concerns about the lengthy whatsoever. We have also listened to a number of other pre-trial detention of British citizens overseas. organisations with relevant experience in this particular The motion and the shadow Home Secretary’s response field. to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge The Government have been clear that we must consider (Dr Huppert) suggest that the Opposition finally share the full impact of ECJ jurisdiction on each of these our concerns about the European arrest warrant and measures. The European Union Justice Commissioner would like to see its operation reformed. If that is the Viviane Reding has made clear that the old third pillar case, the whole Government welcome the admission often led to outcomes at the lowest common denominator, that Labour got it wrong on the European arrest warrant mostly in order to secure unanimity. The vast majority and I am glad that we will have its new-found support if of these measures were not negotiated with ECJ jurisdiction we wish to make any changes in that regard. in mind, and the drafting often reflects that. We should We may not have had much clarity from the Opposition be very careful about allowing the ECJ to interpret such today, but I am grateful for the opportunity to hear the measures. views of Parliament on this important matter. This Why do I say that? Because it is for this House to Government, more than any before us, have done our write the UK’s laws. For example, where Parliament utmost to ensure that Parliament has the time to scrutinise agrees with the judgment of the UK Supreme Court, our decisions relating to the European Union and that Parliament can pass a law to make its will clear and its views are taken into account. As I have said, we have remedy the effect of that judgment. However, judgments made a commitment to hold a vote in both Houses of passed down in Luxembourg by the European Court Parliament before we take a final decision on the opt-out. cannot be addressed in this way. Instead, they require a That vote will take place in good time before May 2014. change to EU law, which cannot be brought about by However, I remind hon. Members that current and the UK alone. That is an important point for us to forthcoming proposals in the EU will have an effect on consider. the 2014 decision. In the Metock case, for example, the European Court of Justice made a ruling that extended free movement Sir Alan Beith: In giving that assurance, will the rights to illegal migrants if they are married to a European Home Secretary indicate when Select Committees will economic area national who is exercising those rights. receive the explanatory memorandum that we have Since the Metock judgment, we have seen a steady been promised for so long? 427 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 428

Mrs May: I am not able to set a date for the right hon. if we could have negotiated the option to look at each Gentleman. I recognise his enthusiasm for seeing the individual policy and decide whether to stay in or out explanatory memorandum, but we are still looking at we would have done, but that was unachievable. No the structure of the list of measures that we want to opt other country is subject to article 10 to protocol 36, and back into. the transition we managed to achieve is exclusive to this The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee mentioned country. the new Europol regulation, which is a good example of We are in a process of considering how we deal with the way in which the measures in the 2014 list are being this crucial matter. The Home Secretary mentioned that affected. The existing Europol regulation is on the list, we were getting confused about the timetable. I heard but we must decide whether to opt into the new regulation no confusion about that from my right hon. Friend the proposed by the European Commission by the end of shadow Home Secretary, but the Prime Minister was July. Ultimately, our decision on whether to participate certainly confused. On 28 September 2012 he said that in the new proposal, either at the outset or post-adoption, the opt-out decision had to be made before the end of will determine our long-term participation in Europol. the year, and he added: The Government have offered a Lidington-style debate “We’ll be exercising that opt-out.” on the opt-in decision. That is a new parliamentary term that I am sure the Clerks will put into Standing Soon afterwards in October, the Home Secretary came Orders at an appropriate time. The debate will be held to the House of Commons to clarify that and say that in the House on 3 July and I look forward to hearing the the Government’s “current thinking” was towards an views of Parliament on that issue. opt-out. Similarly, we expect the Commission to publish proposals In terms of a parliamentary process—remembering on Eurojust and a European public prosecutor’s office that Scotland and Northern Ireland have separate legal shortly. Again, we will have opt-in decisions to make. jurisdictions—there was no consultation whatsoever with However, I remind all Members that the coalition agreement the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Scottish could not be clearer on this point: we will not participate Government, or the Northern Ireland Administration, in the creation of a new and needless pan-European let alone with Committees of this House, before the public prosecutor. That is out of the question. Home Secretary announced that Government thinking What we have heard today from the shadow Home was to opt out. Given how the process started—the Secretary is another example of her carping while the Prime Minister getting the deadline wrong, and the Government get on with the reforms our country needs. Home Secretary’s lack of any consultation before saying She was the one who said we could not cut police where Government thinking was leading—you will forgive budgets without crime going up, and she was wrong. us, Mr Speaker, for having a certain concern about how She was the one who argued against the Winsor review, it is going. and she was wrong. She was the one who opposed our In July last year, the Foreign Secretary announced a immigration reforms, which have already cut net migration review of competencies between the UK and the EU. by more than a third—she was wrong. On measure after Again, we are concerned about how that process is measure, the shadow Home Secretary has been left on being dealt with, and I struggle to think of the kind of her own, moaning from the sidelines. competencies that such a review will address—indeed, The decision on exercising the UK’s opt-out will be there is a fair amount of suspicion that this is some kind taken in the national interest, with questions of public of Wilsonian trick. Leaving that aside, one would think safety and security, and practical co-operation uppermost that such things would be relevant to the 130 measures in our minds. I am delighted to reiterate the commitment to which we must opt in or out. However, the process made by the Minister for Europe in 2011 to a vote in for the balance of competencies will begin looking at both Houses of Parliament before the Government police and criminal justice measures in spring or autumn make a formal decision. In the meantime, the country 2014, after the deadline for the decision to opt in or out needs a careful, considered and constructive debate, not has passed. That, to me, is incomprehensible. the sound and fury we have heard from those on the We are, therefore, left with extreme concern about Opposition Benches today. how the current thinking came about and about the absence of proper input from Parliament. Nine months 5.35 pm have passed since the Home Secretary’s statement to the Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) House. Apart from a couple of minor points I picked (Lab): The Whips will be pleased to know that I support up in her speech today, the position remains exactly as it the motion, but I do not have too much problem with was nine months ago. the amendment. The problem is the timing of the The House of Lords Select Committee on the European amendment because it deals with generalities when we Union has produced a splendid report, but without any need to start talking about specifics, particularly if the information from Her Majesty’s Government on the Home Secretary’s pledge that this should be a matter measures they might seek to rejoin when they exercise for Parliament to decide is to be honoured. Truth to tell, the opt-out. Conservative Members make a valid point the opt-out in article 10 to protocol 36 was negotiated about the importance the Opposition place on the as an insurance policy to give us the time and ability to European arrest warrant. In a sense, the suspicion, look at all the measures. We must remember that police which might be valid, is that the Opposition would and criminal justice issues were not part of the European accept the other 129 measures just to keep the precious Union until the Maastricht treaty—which was agreed EAW, and that we believe the EAW is that important. by the previous Conservative Government—introduced However, we have not heard from the Opposition them, and even then there was no competency for the Benches—[Interruption.] I am sorry, I should have said European Court of Justice. That was a big change, and Conservative Benches. We have not heard from Conservative 429 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 430

Members their equivalent to the EAW if they opt out the Government stand as we get closer to 2014. I want completely. If they read the motion from Her Majesty’s the Justice Committee and the Home Affairs Committee Opposition, they will see that we think a number of to consider the matter. I want the arguments to be measures are important. However, I do not get any revealed. sense of what measure is worth risking our being unable My main concern is the European arrest warrant. I to opt back in to all 130 measures. Why is the Government’s overcame minor antipathy to the other 129 measures to thinking to opt out rather than to opt in? keep it. If we pull out and try to renegotiate, we will be in a much weaker position. The case has been made not Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman perhaps gives just in the House of Lords Committee, but in the Scott the House a greater insight into Opposition policy than Baker report commissioned by the Home Secretary the shadow Home Secretary has. I take it from what he herself. There are things we could do to improve the says that he believes Labour party policy is to opt in and warrant—a proportionality test was a major issue raised not to opt out of any of the measures. by Scott Baker. I have to say, however, that adopting the European supervision order that would allow British Alan Johnson: My point is that the Government came citizens to be supervised in the UK until the trial in the to the conclusion that they are minded to opt out. We requesting member state is being held would go an have no idea where that thinking came from—there was awful long way to meeting the objections of Scott Baker no consultation with anyone. It is just as valid for the and of others on both sides of the House. Government to be minded to opt in, but we have no Politics is about the personal more than anything sense of what big issue prevents them from doing so. else. The shadow Home Secretary mentioned the savage The Home Secretary said in October and has repeated murder of Moira Jones. I met her mother Beatrice when today that some of the measures are useful, some are I was Home Secretary. The current Home Secretary less useful, and some are now defunct, but she has never would have had the same difficult job to do. When I met defined which measures are useful. There was a small Beatrice Jones, she pointed out to me that the murderer concession in her speech, but the House of Lords EU of her daughter fled this country immediately.A European Committee—an important Committee of the democratic arrest warrant was issued 14 days later. Two days after process—had to do its work completely in the dark, that, he was arrested in Slovakia and brought to justice. with no sense of what was useful, what was not useful I promised Mrs Jones that I would do my best to ensure or what was defunct. Eventually, she gave three examples that the European arrest warrant remains. I plan to to the Committee of defunct measures, but as my right keep that promise. hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has said, if the measures are defunct, they are harmless, and we need 5.47 pm not worry about them because they will be weeded out and tidied up. The defunct measures are not the important Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): It is a pleasure part of the debate; the important part is on useful or to speak in this welcome debate. We all know that the not useful measures. ability to invoke the block opt-out was negotiated as In its report, the House of Lords Committee, which part of the Lisbon treaty—on which we did not have a is not the Labour party—in fact, most members of the vote—by the previous Labour Government. According Committee have been hostile to the Labour party to the refreshed Government list deposited in Parliament throughout their political careers—states: last month, 127 EU laws currently fall under the block opt-out. They are gradually being eaten away, so we will “The most effective way for the UK to cooperate with other have fewer to debate by next May. They include the Member States is to remain engaged in the existing EU measures in this area.” European arrest warrant, which has been mentioned and to which I will come in a moment, and legislation The Committee’s current thinking, therefore, is to opt in defining various criminal offences and rules for associated to those measures. It says that clearly and backs it up penalties. There are many measures—with 127 laws, with strong arguments—it interviewed a cross-section that is to be expected—which is why is important to of people, including the Home Secretary. have this sort of debate on the Floor of the House to The Christmas quiz is this: what is the common enable the House to inform the Home Secretary and theme to all 130 measures? They were all agreed by others on the Front Bench of its thinking. I therefore unanimity. They were all agreed under a system where welcome the Opposition’s giving us the time to talk the UK had the veto. They were all then brought before about this issue today. this House and were agreed by various Committees—my Under the arrangements introduced by the Lisbon hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk treaty, the UK has to opt out of all of these EU laws en (Michael Connarty) was the Chair of one of them—to masse—it cannot opt out selectively. If the UK wants to be scrutinised. Not a single one of the 130 measures was opt out, it must notify the EU of its wish to do so by foisted on the UK against our will by a hostile European 31 May 2014 at the very latest, so we have plenty of time Administration. Even if the Euro myth of creating a for this debate. If the UK does not opt out, under the superstate with an integrated criminal law, as propagated EU treaties it will become bound by these laws by some of the swivel-eyed loonies, were true, nothing indefinitely—there is no subsequent opportunity to opt in the 130 measures would contribute towards that aim. out. Furthermore, from December 2014, the European In fact, the opposite is the case: the vast majority relate Court of Justice will for the first time gain full jurisdiction to a mutual recognition of the diverse systems throughout over these laws under a change introduced by the Lisbon the European Union. treaty, meaning that the European Commission could There is as good an argument for the Government to take the UK to the Court for what it believed to be a be thinking about moving towards opting in as opting breach of one of these laws. Consequent rulings from out, but I am persuadable. I just want to know where the Court would be binding. In addition, the Court 431 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 432

[Chris Heaton-Harris] that. We were doing our job on that Committee and trying to prise out of the Government, quite legitimately, could rule on questions about the interpretation of what the position would be. That is why I have no issue these laws referred to it by UK courts—rulings that with this debate. would then be applied by British judges. The Government have said that some of the EU laws Why is that an issue? It was raised by the House of subject to the block opt-out are obsolete, and I thought Lords European Union Committee, and one particular I would list some of them for the benefit of Opposition case illustrates the great concern about the Court’s Members, because there are more than three of them. judicial activism: the Metock case in 2008. Four nationals First, there is the joint action 96/747/JHA on the creation of a non-EU state applied for asylum in Ireland, but of the directory that the Home Secretary mentioned. their applications were rejected. In the meantime, however, There are various laws under the block opt-out that the men had married women from other EU states, have little or nothing to do with cross-border co-operation. exercising free movement rights in Ireland, and they They include framework decision 2000/383/JHA, which reapplied. The Irish Government refused each application, defines the criminal offence of currency counterfeiting their regulations stating that the rights under the free and sets rules and attendant penalties, and framework movement directive did not apply to family members, decision 2003/568/JHA on corruption in the private unless they were already a lawful resident in another sector, which requires member states to criminalise member state and seeking to enter Ireland with an EU intentionally national or to join an EU citizen in Ireland. The Grand “requesting or receiving an undue advantage of any kind,” Chamber of the European Court ruled that national and so on. These are not great big European deals or legislation could not require the third country national blockbusters; they are things that we can take or leave. spouse of an EEC citizen to have been a permanently Indeed, it is questionable whether they needed to be lawful resident in another member state and therefore decided at the European level in the first place. that they could benefit from the free movement directive. In other words, this highly controversial ruling rewrote Numerous EU laws requiring member states to EU law and Irish immigration law, so there is a reason criminalise particular actions oblige them to punish to be concerned about the possibility of the Court’s such offences with being involved in such decisions. “effective, proportionate and dissuasive criminal penalties”— If the UK invokes the opt-out, the European treaties an ambiguous phrase that is massively open to interpretation allow our country to apply to opt back into particular and causes some concern. If the UK deems it necessary EU laws covered by it. For most of these laws, a UK to change its criminal law to facilitate cross-border application to rejoin would be first considered by the co-operation, we are perfectly able to do so through our European Commission, but if the Commission did not own democratic processes. We do not have to sign up to approve UK readmission, the Council of Ministers EU control to do so. could decide, by qualified majority voting among member Other EU laws under the block opt-out purport to states bound by the relevant law, to admit the UK. For establish cross-border co-operation. In some cases, laws the remaining laws, which are considered part of the that sound as though they would be useful do not seem Schengen body of law, a UK application to rejoin is to be so in practice. For example, the Government have decided by unanimity in the Council, without formal said that the UK has not sent any requests to other Commission involvement. Opting back in is irreversible. member states to freeze suspected criminal assets or If the UK is readmitted by the EU institutions, it could evidence under framework decision 2003/577/JHA since not opt out of the relevant laws again and the Court it was adopted more than a decade ago. There are would have full jurisdiction over the laws concerned. several laws under the block opt-out that the UK has so That is why we have to tackle this sensibly and probably far declined to implement fully, sometimes on grounds deal with each of the 127 measures in turn. of cost. They include Prüm decisions, as we heard earlier, which involve the police sharing information Michael Connarty: The hon. Gentleman and I are such as fingerprints and DNA—perhaps the precursor both members of the European Scrutiny Committee, to a European Prism programme or something like but he has the advantage on me, in that he was a that. In other cases, such as the European arrest warrant, Member of the European Parliament, and he has obviously the laws on cross-border co-operation do not have looked closely at what happens. It is always a deal, and sufficient safeguards for the rights of British citizens. In the question of opting out of something permanently too many cases, British people have been arrested in the would be balanced by the fact that other countries UK under the European arrest warrant and extradited might wish us to be in it for their advantage—even if we to other EU countries, where they have ended up suffering might think it to our disadvantage. In those situations, serious injustices owing to foreseeable problems with is it not likely that we would have to do deals and opt the domestic criminal justice systems in those countries. into things, such as what he has just illustrated, to get what we want on other things? Is it not time to talk There are a number of problems with the European about that sensibly in the European Scrutiny Committee arrest warrant, which have been highlighted by many and in the Lords Committee, instead of this smoke and other countries. The stats are quite simple. Nearly 1,000 mirrors? We do not have long between now and then to requests for a European arrest warrant are issued each have those kinds of debate and to advise the Government month. In 2009, the Serious Organised Crime Agency about whether it would be advantageous to do the sorts here in the UK received 4,004 requests for a European of deals they might be faced with in the future. arrest warrant to be issued. To put that in context, between 2003 and 2009, the UK extradited 63 people to Chris Heaton-Harris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the United States, whereas in 2009-10, the UK extradited his point. He will know that a Home Office Minister 699 individuals to the EU. Perhaps there is a problem gave evidence to our Committee when we talked about with what the warrants are being issued for, which 433 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 434 causes a great deal of concern out there in civil society. countries want to reform it, including Germany, France The fundamental problem for people such as me is the and the Netherlands. Picking up on the point made by extension of powers to the European Court of Justice. the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk Given our experience of this matter nationally and (Michael Connarty), I do not think that our EU partners internationally, we should be wary about that extension. would want to lose such a major partner as the UK in a Let me try to bust some of the myths about this issue. field in which we have unique expertise, intelligence and There is a myth that if we do not opt in, we will lose all experience. co-operation with EU partners on crime and policing. By opting out en bloc, we avoid sacrificing UK democratic Wayne David: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree control over 127 crime and policing measures to the that it is better to achieve change on the European European Commission and European Court of Justice. arrest warrant by co-operating with other countries? We can opt back into those measures that serve the UK national interest. This is an opportunity to re-cast our Chris Heaton-Harris: That is exactly what this relationship, so that it is based on practical law enforcement Government are doing, so I have no issue with that co-operation but is not part of the EU Commission’s point, or with what the Government are doing. drive towards a single EU criminal code, enforced by a There is concern that the opt-out is all about ideological European public prosecutor and the European Court of hostility to the European Union. I do not accept that, Justice. I can remember debates in the European Parliament especially coming from Labour Members. The last nearly a decade ago in which a single European criminal Government signed up to a vast array of measures code and a European public prosecutor were talked without putting in place any proper means of empirically about very seriously. assessing or evaluating their benefits to this country. Another myth is that the UK needs to give the They simply signed away power after power. I actually European Commission and European Court of Justice think it is quite nice to see this Government properly the last word on UK crime and policing policy to scrutinising an important decision on policing and criminal strengthen public safety. One of the UK’s closest security measures in this way. I welcome this debate and I look relationship is with the United States, yet we do not give forward to its continuing over the next year or so. I also the FBI or the US Supreme Court supranational control look forward to voting on these proposals, because it is over our policy making, so why should do the same we right that this Parliament should eventually decide for in this case? Another myth is that we could lose vital itself whether we have the block opt-out or not. areas of co-operation such as data sharing on criminal records. That is rubbish. We have always co-operated on 6.2 pm those matters. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) rose— Co-op): I had the privilege of serving in Her Majesty’s Government for three years as a Minister in the Home Office, negotiating justice and home affairs issues to Chris Heaton-Harris: I will happily give way to the ensure that our country was a safer place. I had the hon. Gentleman, with whom I spent many a good time great privilege of working with the Home Secretary’s in a bar in Strasbourg. Doubtless we will both be two immediate predecessors, both of whom were excellent extradited back there at some point for the crimes of Home Secretaries who had the interests of the public the past. very much at heart. I therefore have enormous respect for the position of Home Secretary, and I extend that Chris Bryant: In that case, we might have to exchange respect to any incumbent in the role because I know the criminal records; and I am sure that he has bought challenges they face. I believed this Home Secretary many. When I arrived in Parliament in 2001, the police when, on taking on the job, she said that she took her in this country were crying out for the exchange of role of protecting the public very seriously. I therefore criminal records with countries such as Poland that have to ask why she is playing such games with the subsequently became members of the European Union, safety of the British public in her approach to the particularly in relation to child sex offenders. Does the opt-out on justice and home affairs issues. Is this an hon. Gentleman acknowledge that that situation has example of dog-whistle politics as she burnishes her now completely changed? credentials in preparation for taking over from the Prime Minister in due course? If so, she is not doing Chris Heaton-Harris: That is a fair point that I take very well today, given that not many of her Eurosceptic on board in this debate. friends have even bothered to attend the debate or listen I am slightly concerned by the Opposition’s tendency to her speech. to say that we would be unable to extradite to European We need to look closely at the proposals. The hon. countries if we opted out of these measures, or that Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) talked each extradition case would take 10 years. I believe that about the rights of British citizens in relation to these we could consider opting back into the European arrest EU measures. I want to talk about the rights of British warrant, but only after it had been reformed so that it victims, which should be at the heart of what any Home no longer sacrificed UK citizens to face incompetent Secretary does. If we were to opt out of all the justice justice systems, as in the Colin Dines case; corrupt and home affairs measures, we could in theory opt back police, as in the Andrew Symeou case; or appalling into certain mechanisms. However, it is important to prisons, as in a number of cases. We should seek to make it clear that that is not an automatic right. Because reform the European arrest warrant, and then have a so many EU member states rightly support the European sensible debate about whether we should opt back into arrest warrant, there is a strong likelihood that they it once it had been reformed. A number of other European would agree to a UK opt-in on that particular issue. 435 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 436

[Meg Hillier] That brings me to the other part of this coalition Government. The Liberal Democrats are now a party Let us be clear about what the Government are of government. That sometimes seems difficult to believe, saying to us. They are not clear on a lot of points, but but it is the case. We hear very little from Lib Dem on one thing they are quite clear. The Prime Minister, Members, so I was heartened to hear from the hon. the Home Secretary and many other Conservatives on Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) that he is pro the both the Back and the Front Benches are telling us that European arrest warrant. That is not the impression I they will negotiate, or renegotiate, an entry into the gained about Liberal Democrats in my full eight years European arrest warrant on more favourable terms, or in Parliament, so it is great to hear that and I look stay out of it. At least, that is what the hints we have forward to his speech. He has talked about making heard suggest—nothing very concrete, but that is what some technical amendments, so the question for the has come through in numerous debates in this House. hon. Gentleman when he stands up to speak on behalf The reality, however, is that the treaty does not allow of his party tonight is, “will they or won’t they?” Will for automatically amending the European arrest warrant. the Lib Dems support the rights of British victims by We know that it is popular among other EU member voting with us, or will they sit on the fence as they often states and it has been hard fought for and hard negotiated. do and hedge their bets? As the hon. Member for Daventry highlighted and as The UK’s reputation in Europe is also put very much others have said, there is a mood for change here and at risk by this approach. Over the years, we have built there in how the arrest warrant works, but that is much up a strong reputation as good negotiators, using better done by all 27 nations working together in justice our influence in a positive way—for the UK in and home affairs Councils and negotiating together to Europe, but also for Europe more widely. The Home make any amendments. That is better than the UK Secretary has not really answered the questions about going it alone, but the UK going it alone is the sort of the support and role of the devolved Administrations. dog whistle approach that this Government adopt, ensuring When I was negotiating for the Government, I would be that they talk in any language that will appeal to the accompanied by members of those devolved Eurosceptic Back Benchers of the Conservative party Administrations who would be at our side as we discussed rather than talk about the safety of the British public. and negotiated. What sort of discussions has the Home Secretary had? Michael Connarty: I want to confirm that my hon. I do not have time to go into all the measures today, Friend’s analysis is accurate. Along with other members but it is important that Prüm was mentioned. There of the European Scrutiny Committee, I have just returned were arguments about how it was handled and how the from Lithuania where the Lithuanians were being technical and IT administration was carried out, but it harangued by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) will nevertheless introduce important protections. At about how everyone in Europe was turning against the present, those in this country who, in a global world, EU, how we are all going to withdraw and he gave the employ people from abroad do not know much about example of the opt outs. They could not believe that where those people have come from, and do not know any UK parliamentarian could talk about withdrawing whether they have criminal records. Proper data exchange from what, as my hon. Friend says, was a hard-negotiated can make our country a safer place. agreement. It would be good to know when the House of Commons will vote on the opt-out. As many Members have pointed Meg Hillier: Absolutely.In my three years of negotiations, out, we are within a year of making a final decision, I was certainly struck by how positive other EU member and we shall need to discuss the issue at length. There states were in comparison with our Eurosceptic are barely six weeks before the summer recess, and we parliamentarians about the benefits of being members shall want to look at the details of the Government’s of Europe. We need to be really clear that there is no proposals. I should have thought that, in three years, the guarantee that we will be able to amend and then opt Government would have got further than they have. We back in later. Even if that were to happen, there is no need to see full details of the opt-in measures; when we timetable for it, and we could be left uncovered for a will see those? How will the Liberal Democrats vote? period of time. We would have to negotiate 26 separate That is another important question, which I hope will treaties with our EU colleagues. I cannot see them being be answered by the hon. Member for Cambridge. Finally, very positive about that. Even when we were in government, what is the Home Secretary doing to protect victims? I was told many times by my European colleagues that We are not a teenage debating society. We are talking the UK was trying to have its cake and eat it. Through about real, serious measures that would protect or detailed and hard-working negotiation across government, threaten the British public and other citizens in Europe. however, we made sure that we got the best deal we We need to ensure that the debate continues beyond could for the British public. My personal view is that we today, and that we winkle out of the Government much need to opt in; we need to amend, if necessary, on a more detail than they have been prepared to offer on cross-EU 27-member-state basis. this occasion. I am still puzzled about why the Home Secretary is lending her name to this risky game and why we are Several hon. Members rose— seeing such strong anti-European rhetoric from the Prime Minister. Perhaps it is all about Conservative Mr Speaker: Order. I did not impose a time limit on Back Benchers and the threat to this Government of Back-Bench speeches, because I hoped that self-discipline the UK Independence party. This Home Secretary and would suffice, and in significant measure it has. Let me this Prime Minister are gambling with the security of simply point out that five Members are seeking to catch the British public and the rights of victims—and we my eye, and there is less than half an hour left, so the need to make that crystal clear. self-denying ordinance is now especially important. 437 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 438

6.11 pm It is interesting to see some—although not all— Conservatives who pride themselves on being tough on Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I find myself crime taking a very “soft on crime” approach in this in a very unusual and difficult position: I agree with the instance. It is a great pleasure for me to be able to take right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and the “tough on crime” line quite clearly and distinctly, Hessle (Alan Johnson). I do not know whether he or I because this does matter. The European arrest warrant should be more alarmed by that, because we do not has been used in many cases, some of already been often agree when we discuss things. mentioned. For instance, Hussain Osman, one of the I believe that the European police and judicial individuals involved in the attempted bombings in July 2005, co-operation legislation structure has been good for was brought back from Italy under the arrest warrant. Britain over the last 15 years, and I should like us to The European arrest warrant could certainly be continue to be involved with it as much as possible. I improved. It is not perfect and I agree with many of the think it a shame that we have the oddities of the Lisbon criticisms levelled at it. It is clear that we need a treaty.The right hon. Gentleman talked about the problems proportionality test and I think we should go ahead involved in negotiation. It would be much better not to with the Eurobail approach to allow foreign criminals have the block opt-out, but we are where we are. It is a to be extradited to their home countries on bail while shame that we were not left with something easier to awaiting trial. That would mean that British citizens work with. awaiting trial overseas could spend that time here and What do the public think? Seventy-seven per cent. of that foreign citizens awaiting trial could go back to their them think that the UK should work “very closely” or home countries before coming back. Those sound like “fairly closely”with the EU on counter-terrorism, policing sensible improvements and I think that we should have and border security, while only 9% think that we should them. If we stay inside those systems, we can improve not. I am sure that the Members—most of them on the them and have a European arrest warrant that is much Government Benches—who always argue that we should better. listen to the public’s views on Europe would agree that Procedures such as Europol and Eurojust are key. we should listen to them in this instance, and hence stay For me, the absolute red lines are the European arrest firmly involved. Some of those on the Eurosceptic warrant, Europol and Eurojust. That is one reason I fringe have concerns, but I disagree with them. I believe prefer the Government amendment as a way towards that working with Europe helps us to extradite foreign my vision, because the motion completely omits Eurojust criminals and bring back those who are suspected or from the list. Although they both offer a way forward, I convicted of crimes, and enables us to share information, slightly prefer the one that sets out the procedures intelligence and best practice. However, the deadline is rather than just a list. approaching. It would be harder to negotiate on some of these matters externally, given the tenor of the interactions My current position is that it seems much cleaner, between the Government and other European countries, much easier and much simpler not to opt out at all. If and it is important to work with people on a more we did not opt out, we would not have to go through the friendly basis from within the circle rather than from negotiation, there would not be the risk of not being outside it. Eurojust is not often talked about, but it able to get back in, and we would not face the potential offers us huge benefits. Some 29 joint investigation costs of doing so. The Home Secretary rightly observed teams involving Eurojust have made a huge difference that some of the measures were useful, some were less to the safety of our country. How would we do that so and some were defunct. That is true, but we can cope work if we were to opt out? with the defunct ones. We do not have to worry too The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch much about them. I was disappointed that the shadow (Meg Hillier) asked for some clear positions. I hope that Home Secretary did not take that line, although the I have been as clear as possible—and certainly clearer right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and than some—that we must be in the European arrest Hessle did. However, I realise that the Home Secretary warrant, Europol and Eurojust and that the European cannot simply do as I suggest because of her problems arrest warrant must be improved to make it more workable within her own party. It is therefore appropriate for us to support British citizens and others. So many other to look at the details, and to focus on the most important things are important: customs co-operation, the European aspects. criminal records information system, financial penalties, We must listen to the experts, such as the Association Schengen II, the European police training college—the of Chief Police Officers. A senior former police and list goes on and on. I agree with those who have security chief has said that pulling out of many of these mentioned dealing with child pornography, the subject measures risks putting national security, public safety, of our earlier debate, and football disorder. We should and the UK’s reputation and international leadership in be taking a lead. this area at risk. Commander Allan Gibson of ACPO We must consider the debate without some of the has said: hyperbole that has drifted in. This is not a question of “When you need to have someone arrested abroad, it” whether we should be in or out of the EU—that is a completely different discussion, which we will have—but —use of the European arrest warrant— of whether we want our country to be safe and secure “is a simpler, faster and more certain process of getting a person and to be able to co-operate to achieve that. My position before your courts. The police service benefits from that. It is and that of my party is clear. much easier than what went before.” I started my speech with a slightly awkward confession, That has been said many times, and I agree wholeheartedly. when I said that I agreed with the right hon. Member I definitely want us to remain within the European for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle. I must say arrest warrant. that I think the Home Secretary will get this one right. I 439 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 440

[Dr Julian Huppert] In the same 12 months when the 48% year-on-year rise took place, the United Kingdom made just 205 requests think that when we have the final list she will listen to for suspects wanted for crimes here and only 99 were the powerful advice given by the police, the security handed over. Poland generates four in every 10 arrest chiefs and this House and will agree that we need to stay warrants sent to Britain, and there has been an example in the European arrest warrant, in Europol and in of someone being extradited back to Poland and charged Eurojust. I look forward to voting for that when she with stealing a wheelbarrow. I do not know whether does. that justifies £18,000 of taxpayers’ money, but it seems like a lot of judicial time and expense for something 6.17 pm fairly trivial. So I am glad that the motion talks about not only supporting the European arrest warrant, but Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to reforming it, because asking individual countries such follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) as Poland to think carefully about what they are doing who, along with other Members of the Select Committee is extremely important. on Home Affairs, will consider the list of opt-ins and opt-outs when the Home Secretary eventually sends it Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend is making an to the Committee, to the Select Committee on Justice interesting speech. Does he accept that one of the and to the European Scrutiny Committee. I agree with a problems from Poland is that the Polish prosecution lot of what he said. International co-operation in the service does not have the discretion not to prosecute? EU is vital and Europol and Eurojust are important. I Does he also accept that the work going on within the have just returned from a visit to Europol and was very European Union with Poland has led to a 40% reduction impressed by the work done by Rob Wainwright and his in applications? Their number is still too many, but it is team. I am glad that the Home Secretary is giving the declining. House another opportunity to debate the issue in July Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right before she decides whether to sign the important regulation about that and it explains why part of the process is to that will allow us to be part of framing the next steps for talk to these countries and bilaterally engage, not on Europol. how they could improve their system, because that I congratulate the former Minister, my hon. Friend the would be too patronising, but by explaining the effect Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), their system is having on our country. That is why I and the former Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend welcomed your recent historic visit to Romania, Mr Speaker, the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan when you were the first Speaker of the House of Commons Johnson), on all the work they have done. My thanks go to address the Romanian Parliament in session. The more than to anyone else to the shadow Home Secretary, importance of your visit and of the discussions that my my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, right hon. Friend has mentioned is that we can try to Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), for giving persuade other EU countries of the need to co-operate. us the chance to discuss this measure in her precious With Romania, that came through Operation Golf; it Opposition time—and to do so in prime time, rather came through smashing those gangs that had ensured than at the end of the day, which is when we normally that so many young Romanian women and men had discuss European issues. I repeat what all other right been trafficked. If we do not have this dialogue, it hon. and hon. Members have said about the importance cannot work. of data-sharing, of knowing who is coming into our There are a few months left before this Government country and who is going out and of ensuring that bring the measures before the Select Committees. I those who have committed crimes and need to be returned know that it is the Home Secretary’s decision, but the to their country are returned as quickly as possible. Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, European co-operation also means that if there are the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James problems with certain measures, we should consider Brokenshire), is very assiduous, and I know he enjoys them. There are problems with the European arrest appearing before the Home Affairs Committee—and warrant, although not with the principle or vision behind we enjoy having him—so I say to him that we would the scheme. We certainly need it, for the reasons given prefer that not to be done the week before the House by the shadow Home Secretary. The difficulties are that votes, as is sometimes the case. Until I raised the issue of some EU countries are issuing European arrest warrants Europol with the Home Secretary she had not replied to for fairly trivial offences and at the moment each extradition my letter and told me that there was going to be a under the European arrest warrant costs £18,000. The debate on Europol in the first week of July. total cost to the British public in 2012 of actioning I am sorry if I sound like the hon. Member for Stone these warrants was £27 million, and figures from the (Mr Cash)—perhaps I am turning into him—but the Council of Europe showed that other European countries issue is that Parliament cannot scrutinise the measures made 6,760 extradition requests to Britain in 2011—that in the European Parliament, and that is why the EU is more than 130 a week, representing a 48% rise year gets such a bad name; we get these measures in the on year. British House of Commons far too late, we do not have I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Esher enough time to debate them, only the usual suspects and Walton (Mr Raab) will speak in this debate, but turn up at the debate and people think there is something since he came into the House he has highlighted the wrong with all of us just because we want to talk about importance of this issue, and other right hon. and hon. European issues. So the best way to avoid that is to let Members from across the House have given specific us have this list quickly. examples of when their constituents have not been, in We are deciding on our programme in the Home their view, fairly treated by the operation of the European Affairs Committee and we are going to visit to Poland arrest warrant. to talk to the Polish chief justice and others, including 441 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 442 the judges. These are the people who are issuing the to be a strong operational partner in Europe, but I do European arrest warrants in such numbers—as I said, not believe that we need to give up democratic control 40% of these warrants come from Poland. We can over such a vital policy area to achieve that. We should arrange all that only if we know when the list will come consider all measures against the criteria of the UK’s to us. I hope that when the Minister winds up we will national interest. have a decision on that. Few would object to European-wide criminal record Several hon. Members rose— checks to protect the public, but signing up for pan- European data sharing on every ordinary citizen is Mr Speaker: Order. There is approximately five minutes Orwellian and dangerous. As the UK’s surveillance of for each of the three remaining speakers. its people has expanded, data sharing with EU Governments has exposed the innocent to far greater 6.24 pm risk. The classic case is that of Peter Hamkin, a Liverpool Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I bartender wrongly arrested in 2003 for murdering an regret the nature of the amendment, because the Opposition Italian woman because of a botched DNA match. He motion is a genuine attempt to help the coalition. It never set foot in Italy. New EU regulations risk a flood would have been helpful if the Home Secretary had of such cases. Brussels wants foreign police to have revealed, as we have done, the key measures that she access to the details of 38 million motorists on the UK supports. This distasteful horse-trading to see if there is Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency database, as well some compromise, or a handful of measures that the as DNA and fingerprint records. Even the Commission Government can agree on, is a very funny way to handle concedes in its impact assessment that systemic flaws the issue of crime and security. If the Government could lead to false matches sucking the innocent into accepted our motion, they would be agreeing to the foreign investigations. Everyone has been so sensitive European arrest warrant, but of course they cannot, about this, but the raw truth is that I do not trust the because the last Conservative manifesto was against it. criminal justice systems or safeguards in many EU That is why the Home Secretary is having to duck and countries; I am thinking particularly of some of those dive. The Government would be supporting joint on the periphery of the EU, but also some of the investigation teams; agreeing to joint action on internet long-standing members. child pornography, which worries so many of us; and agreeing to joint action on drugs, people trafficking and According to the Association of Chief Police Officers, football security—all things that we should be able to only 29 of the 135 EU measures that are subject to the support. block opt-out benefit UK law enforcement at all, and of Nearly 10% of Europol’s work involves counter-terrorism, those only 13 are vital. Far from enhancing law enforcement, and the UK is involved in more than 200 Europol the vast majority of measures that the previous Government investigations into organised crime and terrorism. Surely signed Britain up to were utterly pointless. That is what that is right. I want concerted action to tackle the 3,500 ACPO’s evidence means. [Interruption.] It clearly does, or so criminal gangs active across Europe. They do not but I will not take an intervention because of the time. recognise national boundaries, and we should not be We do not need to be part of efforts to harmonise obstacles to cross-border action to deal with those people. national law in areas such as drugs or corruption, and certainly not in areas that cover free speech. The Government’s position is riddled with inconsistencies. Government Members say that it does not matter if the The EU spews out legislation, but where is the evidence European arrest warrant is lost, because extradition can that it delivers? The previous Government never had be organised through the 1957 Council of Europe proper impact assessments or evaluations of it. Let us convention, but that would require decisions to be take one example—the six laws on corruption under the taken by Governments, not judges, and that is the very EU. Transparency International says that EU standards role that the Home Secretary wants to give up in relation have barely budged over a decade. In fact, corruption to extradition. got worse in 10 countries. Then there was the push on Of course, the UK has already opted into post-Lisbon criminal justice standards, whereas Fair Trials International measures concerning the sexual exploitation of children found that violations of pre-trial rights trebled across and procedural safeguards for suspects and victims. the EU in the past four years and unfair trials doubled. Will we end up being obliged to agree to assist in the Hyperactive supranational legislation has proved a fig investigation of particular crimes at the request of EU leaf for the lack of national institutional capacity building states, but unable to make arrests or share key information that really raises standards of justice for all Europe’s at vital points in the inquiries? citizens. If the coalition cannot decide on its position soon, I spent three years in the Foreign Office in The Hague we will have to opt out of all the measures and rely on monitoring Europol and Eurojust. I have no problem at the approval of 26 other countries to let us opt back in all with a college of prosecutors or police officers on a case-by-case basis. What happens if the anti-European engaging in practical authority-to-authority co-operation, hysteria makes opting back in much more difficult? The but that is a snapshot of the present, and the question is Government risk placing the needs of the coalition and where all this is leading. There is already a new EU Tory Eurosceptics ahead of the security and justice regulation on Europol and one is expected on Eurojust. concerns of the people of this country. They are clearly envisaged by the Commission—I have the draft policy papers here—as stepping stones towards 6.27 pm a pan-European criminal code enforced by Europol and Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I welcome Eurojust, backed up and interpreted by the European the Home Secretary’s speech and the broad strategic Court of Justice. We need to look not just at the current approach that she outlined. For my part, I want Britain state of co-operation, but where this is headed. 443 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 444

[Mr Dominic Raab] of precedents. We are not a full-blown member of Frontex, but its executive director has said The most controversial measure is, of course, the “we do not see any difference between our UK colleagues and the European arrest warrant. I understand entirely that others”. police rely on it and I understand that it has expedited That is a good example of where we co-operate process, but Commander Gibson of the Metropolitan operationally but do not need to be signed up, lock, police has highlighted the fact that stock and barrel, with all the cessation of democratic “resources are stretched dealing with the amount of EAWs we prerogatives that that involves. receive”, The way this has been presented as some kind of because the regime is utterly lopsided. The number of life-threatening problem for UK law enforcement is hon. Members who complain about the lopsided nature incredible, when one thinks of our relationship with of US extradition, yet turn a blind eye, because of their authorities outside Europe. The strategic alliance group, Europhilia, to the EAW is quite remarkable, so let me which includes Britain, the US, Canada, New Zealand give them the facts. For every EAW that Britain issued and Australia, collaborates on cybercrime and intelligence in 2011, we got 33 back. We receive a third of all under a non-binding framework. Frankly, Brussels is European arrest warrants. the odd one out in insisting on a Faustian bargain that I know from many cases—that of Andrew Symeou requires us to sacrifice democratic control as the price and in my own constituency the case of Colin Dines—the of co-operation. extremely rough justice that perfectly innocent people The ideologues in this debate are not those calling for have been through. Why? Because we cannot trust the a renegotiation in justice and home affairs, based on justice systems in many countries. It is not just the new operational co-operation rather than supranational control, members. Italy and Greece have incompetent justice but the dogmatic Europhiles who would blindly sacrifice systems and appalling prison conditions, and we are British standards of justice and democratic accountability and have been hanging our citizens out to dry for far when the law enforcement case is so utterly weak. too long. We need reform and the strongest way to press for reform is to opt out and, as a condition of opting back in, to insist on a number of basic safeguards. The 6.36 pm proportionality test has been mentioned, and there are other safeguards. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I will try to make some brief comments in the short time available. I The EAW is supposed to allow hit-and-hope warrants walked up and down many streets in Hyndburn and that involve extradition for the purposes of investigation, Haslingden during the recent county council elections, rather than prosecution. That happens all the time. I and it was clear to me that many people are unaware of have proposed amendments, which Members in all parts how important the European arrest warrant is, so this of the House thought would be a good idea, to enact in debate is welcome. Among those constituents who had UK law a basic safeguard to make sure that extradition some knowledge of the EAW,there was universal support under the EAW can take place only in a case that is for it. trial-ready, for prosecution and not for investigation, yet we have never achieved that. If we want to exercise As my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary some leverage over our European partners, who get and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly much more out of the system reciprocally than we Oak (Steve McCabe) have pointed out, there are some do—I accept that there is a strong law enforcement 3,600 organised criminal gangs active in the EU, and advantage to the UK—we should use our leverage from they are involved in drugs, human trafficking, online the block opt-out to press for those reforms. child exploitation and theft. Cross-border crime is a reality, and we need 21st-century tools to meet the We should not take into account only what the police challenge. say. We do not live in a police state. Their view is very important, but we should also take into account the We all remember Spain’s costa del crime, where British views of the most senior extradition judge in this country, nationals wanted for serious crimes would simply buy a Lord Justice Thomas, who told the Baker review that luxury pad and put their feet up, safe in the knowledge the EAWsystem has become “unworkable”, that unfairness that they were beyond the reach of UK law. In 2002 the is a “huge problem”and that there is widespread consensus BBC suggested that some 230 criminals were hiding out The among the judges in northern Europe that this is a in Spain. How things have changed. Last month Daily Telegraph problem, but there is obviously great sensitivity, and ran a story with the headline, “Why sensibilities, among some of the Mediterranean countries. Spain’s Costa del Crime is now the worst place to go on the run”. It reported: Beyond the individual cost-benefit analysis of these “Once a land of Ferraris, cocaine and women, it was the flashy measures, we need to grasp the big picture and the long destination of choice for the most notorious fugitives of Britain’s term. EU Commission President José Manuel Barroso underworld. Now, as the arrest of Andrew Moran shows, Spain’s has made it clear that he wants a pan-European criminal ‘Costa del Crime’ is the worst place to go on the run”. code, enforced by the Commission and the European These are important issues for our national security Court, and an EU public prosecutor. If we want to and public safety. Sadly for my constituents, the preserve our common law system and democratic oversight Government have stated that they will opt out of everything in this vitally sensitive area, is now the right time to seek but have not been clear about which measures they will broader and more flexible arrangements for co-operation? opt back into. Their position, in my view, is utterly That is why this specific opt-out decision should not confused. My constituents are concerned that opting be divorced from the need to renegotiate Britain’s wider out of these measures will affect public safety. Sadly, the justice and home affairs relationship. There are plenty Conservatives seem to be in hoc to their Europhobic 445 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 446

Back Benchers, who prioritise getting rid of anything 6.41 pm with the word “Europe” in the title regardless of what Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): This has been an value it has. interesting debate, although we are absolutely none the Policing and criminal justice co-operation strengthens wiser about the Government’s policy. I am delighted our national security and means we can identify dangerous that the Home Secretary has come back into the Chamber; people coming into the UK. As the hon. Member for perhaps she will be able to provide us with some answers Cambridge (Dr Huppert) highlighted, Hussain Osman, later. who was identified as a suspect in the failed bomb Last year the Prime Minister said that he would be attack at Hammersmith tube station on 21 July 2005, exercising the opt-out, then the Deputy Prime Minister was extradited on a European arrest warrant and sentenced disagreed, and then the Home Secretary said that the to 40 years’ imprisonment. According to David Anderson Government’s current thinking was to opt out. We have QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, therefore tabled an Opposition motion to try to tease there are a number of EU out the Government’s position and precisely what they “measures relevant to counter-terrorism that are considered by intend to do, because we know that this is a matter of SO15 to be essential tools”. national security. The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley We must be mindful—this has been commented on and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), was absolutely right already—that 10% of Europol’s work is related to counter- when he said not long ago that we should not be naive terrorism. about the process of renegotiation if we want to opt out It is crucial to our future that there are strong powers and then opt back in. As he said, the Commission to tackle cross-border crime and prevent criminals from would attach conditions—for instance, it might allow using the UK as a haven. My right hon. Friend the us to join groups of related measures, some of which we Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) mentioned like while others we might not. Operation Golf, which involved the Metropolitan police Our view is that thus far this has been a pretty shabby and the Romanian national police and tackled a Romanian process. When we tried to enable the House to debate gang that was trafficking children into the UK for the the European arrest warrant during the progress of the commission of crime. It resulted in the arrest of 126 Crime and Courts Bill, Government Ministers and Back suspects for a wide range of offences, including human Benchers talked out the debate so that we never managed trafficking, benefit fraud, theft, money laundering and to discuss the matter at all. All the relevant Committees child neglect, and 272 trafficking victims were identified. in this House and in the House of Lords have complained Over 600 criminals have been returned to the UK to that they have been given negligible information by the face British justice for crimes they have committed here. Government. We have been given no clarity of any kind Over 500 UK nationals convicted of sex offences in as to what measures they might be considering opting other EU states since 2006 are now managed in the UK into—not even a clear idea on their final resolution of within the sex offender management system, including whether they intend to opt out in general—and we had paedophiles who without EU co-operation on crime no clarity today. may well have escaped justice. Exchanging criminal We still have no clarity about what kind of votes we records is crucial to discovering serious offenders who are going to have. The Home Secretary trumpeted the have come to the attention of the police. Operation fact that last year the Europe Minister, who is in his Veerde, a joint collaboration between the UK and the place, charming chap that he is, said that we would have Czech Republic on human trafficking and rape of young a vote in both Houses. However, he did not say whether women, resulted in 33 victims being located in the they would be binding votes—just that they would be Czech Republic and nine suspects indicted and convicted votes before the Government made their final decision. in England on behalf of both states. He did not say whether the votes would be on a list of what we are to opt into and opt out of. He did not say Combating internet child pornography has been part whether they would be on amendable motions. He did of collaborative EU policing. ACPO has said that the not say what would happen if one House voted one way Schengen information system is a vital measure that the and the other House voted the other. UK is already heavily committed to, and as such it is The truth is that a double tug of war is going on, as vital that we opt back into it. Easy access to this we know from The Guardian today. The first is between information will enable the UK to exchange information the two sides of the Government—the Liberal Democrats across Europe in real time in order to fight cross-border and the Conservatives. It is great that the man who crime and rapidly repatriate UK criminals who have actually boasts of having invented the poll tax when he fled to other EU countries. This is not just about worked at No. 10 under Mrs Thatcher is now in charge capturing British criminals who are attempting to hide of these negotiations as the Minister for Government within the EU. The UK has deported over 4,000 criminals Policy. The other tug of war is between Conservative under the EU arrest warrant, 95 of whom are foreign Members, some of them on the ultra-right and some on nationals removed from the UK. That is a considerable the moderate right. Some might be referred to historically number of foreign prisoners who no longer languish in as the H-block—the Heaton-Harris and Hannan end of British prisons. the Conservative party. It reminds me of the Old My constituents will suffer if polluted anti-European Testament—two women claim that a baby is theirs and politics result in this Government withdrawing from it is only when Solomon says that the baby should be effective EU cross-border policing measures. That risks cut in half that one of them owns up. I am worried that sex offenders, child traffickers and violent criminals, as the Government’s policy-making process means that well as foreign criminals, escaping justice and could they are simply playing a numbers game in which they result in their being on the streets of my constituency spin different things to different parts of the media and and all other hon. Members’ constituencies. the end result will be that British security will lose out. 447 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 448

[Chris Bryant] six to the Netherlands and five each to Spain and France. The flow in the other direction was similar: It is all pretty sad, really, because historically the 17 from Ireland and the Netherlands, and 14 from United Kingdom has led and campaigned for greater Spain. Of the extraditions, 50 were for homicide, 20 for co-operation on many of these issues in the European rape and 90 for robbery. The thought that we might Union. It is a simple matter of fact that ease of travel, surrender the European arrest warrant and have no sure faster telecommunications and the ability to send money knowledge of what would stand in its place must be of from one country to another much faster mean that no serious concern to everybody in the country. country is hermetically sealed any more. Indeed, as my The hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract charming though he is, was quite casual about whether and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) has said, criminality there would be an alternative to the European arrest does not stop at the channel. When I first typed out that warrant, but all the work of the Lords Committee, the sentence, it said, “does not stop at the Chanel”, which is Bar Council and others suggests that we might have to rather different. rely on the 1957 convention, which would not solve any On joint investigation teams, our advances in recent single one of the problems with the European arrest years and the increased number of such teams mean warrant that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton that we are able to tackle forms of criminality that we referred to. In fact, it would make many of them were never able to deal with before. considerably worse, because it would lead to a longer The Association of Chief Police Officers has been process and people like Andrew Symeou might end up mentioned many times. I accept the point made by the being imprisoned. Bilateral agreements, for which the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) that, hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea just because a police officer says something, that does Leadsom) has argued—she is not present, but she leads not necessarily mean that we need to put it into law. the charge for many of the more ardent Eurosceptics— However, ACPO has pointed out: would not help either. As my hon. Friend the Member “The presence of fugitives from justice fleeing to the UK is a for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) said, there is a danger significant public safety issue.” that we will create a new version of the costa del crime It stands to reason that if we make it more difficult for in this country. people to be extradited from this country by resiling There are measures other than the European arrest from the European arrest warrant, we will, in effect, warrant that we think are vital to our national security. open ourselves up to the danger of being a haven for The Schengen information system, the second incarnation them. of which is not yet fully in place, will mean that every country in the EU will be able to access real-time Mr Raab rose— information on anybody who is of interest to the criminal justice system of any other country at their border and Chris Bryant: I will not give way, because we have elsewhere. That is an important system and it covers very little time left and the hon. Gentleman took up 23 of the measures that we are discussing. quite a large amount of time himself. David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of I believe that the European arrest warrant is invaluable. terrorism legislation, said that SO15 considers many of As my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and the measures that we are talking about to be essential in Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) has said, it is invaluable for tackling terrorism. The hon. Member for Esher and victims apart from anything else. Without it, ACPO Walton mentioned one person who made his concerns says that about the European arrest warrant known to the Baker “It is not just foreign criminals who would sit for years in UK review. However, I point out to hon. Members who are jails. UK court cases would stall for many years as we waited to deeply troubled by the European arrest warrant that the get our fugitives back, robbing their victims of the chance for Baker review said clearly: justice to be served.” “we believe that the European arrest warrant scheme has worked Similarly, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) reasonably well.” referred to the case of Hussain Osman, who planted a bomb on 21 July 2005 which, thank God, did not go off. Mr Raab rose— Within eight days he had been arrested, having gone through Paris to Rome, and by September he was back in this country, thanks to the European arrest warrant. Chris Bryant: I will still not give way to the hon. Without it, such a process might take up to 10 years in Gentleman because hon. Members wish to hear from future. That is precisely the kind of thing that we want the Minister. to avoid. I will end by making one further point. I know that We have only to look at the statistics for 2011-12. there are many pragmatic, sensible pro-Europeans on Sometimes the hon. Member for Esher and Walton—whom the Government Benches. Sometimes they remind me I respect enormously in many regards, but not in what of Nicodemus in the New Testament, who was only he says about this—often suggests that this is all about able to visit Jesus at night because he did not want to British citizens being extradited, but the vast majority own up to his Jewish colleagues on the Sanhedrin about of people surrendered from and to the UK under the his real views. I can see some of those sensible pro- European arrest warrant are not British. In 2011-12, Europeans now and I am tempted to name them—to Government statistics show that 922 people were extradited out them. Of course, there are plenty of Liberal Members from the UK, just 32 of whom were British nationals. who are sometimes sensible. There are also plenty of They were not extradited to the kinds of countries Conservatives. It is just a shame that they dare not own referred to by the hon. Gentleman: eight went to Ireland, up to their true views. 449 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 450

I hope that what comes out of this process is a proper The decision on exercising the UK’s opt-out will be consultation with all the Select Committees and a proper taken in the national interest. After contributions from list that does not come out only on the day after the end hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Hackney of May 2014—we know that the Home Secretary is not South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), let me say clearly very good at getting her dates right. I hope that we have that this is not about playing games or not acting a proper process whereby everybody in the House can responsibly—something the Home Secretary made crystal declare their commitment to the systems that work well clear in her contribution this afternoon. Consideration in the national interest, and that there is an amendable will be given to how a measure contributes to public motion for which all Members can vote. safety and security, whether practical co-operation is underpinned by the measure, and whether there would be a detrimental effect on such co-operation if pursued 6.52 pm by other mechanisms. That is the correct and measured The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the approach the Government will take. Home Department (James Brokenshire): Before I respond Important contributions have been made this afternoon, to the points that have been made by various Members, and my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris it is important in the short time that I have to restate a Heaton-Harris) highlighted the impact of European few simple points to ensure that this debate is understood Court of Justice jurisdiction. Much of the third-pillar and placed in its proper context, particularly in the light legislation was made to the lowest common denominator of the last contribution and some of the other contributions in order to secure unanimity, and it was not negotiated this afternoon and evening. with European Court of Justice jurisdiction in mind. First, the decision that the previous Administration Much of the drafting reflects that and is not of a high left us to make is whether to exercise the opt-out by standard. Indeed, some of it is ambiguous and could 31 May 2014. The Opposition motion and a number of lend itself to expansive interpretation by the Court—a the contributions this evening have given the impression point effectively made by my hon. Friend. He also that this is a rushed decision. Before coming to a final referred to the Metock case that highlights the issues view on such an important matter, the Government involved and why this matter must be considered so must be satisfied that they have worked through all the carefully. options, understood the implications of them, provided My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton Parliament with as much information as is practical and (Mr Raab) highlighted evidence from the Association given Members the chance to debate the issues in an of Chief Police Officers which said that 55 of the informed way. That is the proper way for a Government measures in the basket have no practical effect, and that to conduct business and that is precisely what we are is why the evidence presented must be weighed carefully. committed to doing. The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West Secondly, I remind Members that some 130 measures and Hessle (Alan Johnson) highlighted the balance of are subject to this decision, not just the handful named competences review, but that is a separate matter concerning in the Opposition motion. While the Opposition may modifications to treaties. The issue currently before the view those measures as the most important ones that House concerns the utilisation of a measure in an are subject to the decision—although in the light of the existing treaty. contributions this evening, I am not so sure about The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve that—I do not agree that we should single out individual McCabe) seemed to imply that there was no room for measures when making the large opt-out decision. Instead, practical co-operation, but there absolutely is. Much of we should look at the measures in the round. That is to our co-operation to fight crime and terrorism does not say, we should consider all 130 or so of them. We must depend on EU-level instruments. Indeed, our operational take a decision based purely on what is in the national partners co-operate closely on a daily basis and that will interest. not change. We have been clear throughout this process My right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the that where there is a case for practical co-operation with Justice Secretary have been consistently clear to this other European partners, the Government will support it. House and in evidence to the other place that the Some hon. Members, including the Chair of the Government’s current thinking is that we should opt Home Affairs Committee, highlighted Europol. Obviously, out of all pre-Lisbon policing and criminal justice measures, the Commission has published a new measure and there but seek to rejoin measures where it is in the national will be a separate debate on that at the start of July. interest to do so. The Government have given a clear Therefore, our decisions on Europol will clearly be commitment, reiterated today by the Home Secretary, framed in the context of the new measure and existing to hold a vote on the matter before any formal decision measures that fall within the basket. We also expect the to opt out is made. publication of new instruments in relation to Eurojust. I am proud to be a member of a Government who have done so much to allow Parliament to scrutinise EU Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to matters more fully than ever before, and who are allowing move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). a vote on such an important matter. When such an unambiguous commitment has been made and repeated Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The by the Government, I am not clear what benefit is to be question is—[Interruption.] I do not think we need any gained by holding a vote on a motion that only partially help from you, Mr Browne. Thank you. You are very deals with this matter. Surely it is better to welcome the good at giving advice, but we do not need it. Government’s commitment to a vote, and for the Government to ensure that any vote takes place in a Question put forthwith, That the question be now put. fully informed manner. Question agreed to. 451 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 452

[Mr Deputy Speaker] Lewell-Buck, Emma Reynolds, Jonathan Lewis, Mr Ivan Riordan, Mrs Linda Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Ritchie, Ms Margaret That the original words stand part of the Question. Love, Mr Andrew Rotheram, Steve MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Roy, Mr Frank The House divided: Ayes 217, Noes 282. Mactaggart, Fiona Roy, Lindsay Division No. 28] [6.59 pm Mahmood, Mr Khalid Ruane, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Ruddock, rh Dame Joan AYES Malhotra, Seema Sarwar, Anas Mann, John Sawford, Andy Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon Seabeck, Alison Abrahams, Debbie Doughty, Stephen McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr Virendra Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dowd, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dromey, Jack McClymont, Gregg Sheridan, Jim Alexander, Heidi Durkan, Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Shuker, Gavin Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Ms Angela McDonald, Andy Skinner, Mr Dennis Allen, Mr Graham Eagle, Maria McFadden, rh Mr Pat Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Jim Smith, Nick Austin, Ian Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Owen Bailey, Mr Adrian Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Ellman, Mrs Louise McKenzie, Mr Iain Straw, rh Mr Jack Balls, rh Ed Engel, Natascha McKinnell, Catherine Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Barron, rh Mr Kevin Esterson, Bill Meacher, rh Mr Michael Tami, Mark Bayley, Hugh Evans, Chris Meale, Sir Alan Thomas, Mr Gareth Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank Mearns, Ian Thornberry, Emily Benn, rh Hilary Flello, Robert Miliband, rh Edward Timms, rh Stephen Berger, Luciana Flint, rh Caroline Miller, Andrew Turner, Karl Betts, Mr Clive Flynn, Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Twigg, Derek Blackman-Woods, Roberta Francis, Dr Hywel Morden, Jessica Umunna, Mr Chuka Blenkinsop, Tom Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Vaz, Valerie Blomfield, Paul Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Walley, Joan Blunkett, rh Mr David Glass, Pat (Easington) Watson, Mr Tom Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Mr Jim Watts, Mr Dave Brennan, Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Paul Weir, Mr Mike Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Williams, Hywel Buck, Ms Karen Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Williamson, Chris Burden, Richard Gwynne, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Winnick, Mr David Burnham, rh Andy Hain, rh Mr Peter Osborne, Sandra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hamilton, Mr David Owen, Albert Wishart, Pete Campbell, Mr Alan Hamilton, Fabian Pearce, Teresa Woodcock, John Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Caton, Martin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pound, Stephen Wright, David Champion, Sarah Harris, Mr Tom Qureshi, Yasmin Wright, Mr Iain Chapman, Jenny Havard, Mr Dai Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Clark, Katy Healey, rh John Reed, Mr Jamie Tellers for the Ayes: Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hendrick, Mark Reed, Mr Steve Nic Dakin and Clwyd, rh Ann Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Emma Alison McGovern Coaker, Vernon Hilling, Julie Coffey, Ann Hodge, rh Margaret Connarty, Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon NOES Cooper, Rosie Hood, Mr Jim Adams, Nigel Blackwood, Nicola Cooper, rh Yvette Hosie, Stewart Amess, Mr David Bone, Mr Peter Corbyn, Jeremy Hunt, Tristram Andrew, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter Crausby, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brady, Mr Graham Creagh, Mary Jackson, Glenda Bacon, Mr Richard Brake, rh Tom Creasy, Stella James, Mrs Siân C. Baker, Norman Bray, Angie Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Baker, Steve Brazier, Mr Julian Cunningham, Alex Johnson, rh Alan Baldwin, Harriett Bridgen, Andrew Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, Diana Barclay, Stephen Brokenshire, James Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Graham Barker, rh Gregory Brooke, Annette Curran, Margaret Jones, Helen Baron, Mr John Browne, Mr Jeremy Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Barwell, Gavin Bruce, Fiona Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Susan Elan Bebb, Guto Buckland, Mr Robert David, Wayne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Beith, rh Sir Alan Burley, Mr Aidan Davidson, Mr Ian Keeley, Barbara Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, Conor Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz Benyon, Richard Burstow, rh Paul De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Bingham, Andrew Byles, Dan Dobson, rh Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Binley, Mr Brian Cable, rh Vince Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris Birtwistle, Gordon Cairns, Alun 453 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs12 JUNE 2013 EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs 454

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, rh Mr John Norman, Jesse Stewart, Bob Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Iain Carswell, Mr Douglas Heaton-Harris, Chris Offord, Dr Matthew Stewart, Rory Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Streeter, Mr Gary Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Opperman, Guy Stride, Mel Clappison, Mr James Herbert, rh Nick Ottaway, Richard Stuart, Mr Graham Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Parish, Neil Stunell, rh Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hoban, Mr Mark Patel, Priti Sturdy, Julian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Pawsey, Mark Swales, Ian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollobone, Mr Philip Penrose, John Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Perry, Claire Swinson, Jo Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Phillips, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Crabb, Stephen Horwood, Martin Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Crockart, Mike Howarth, Sir Gerald Pincher, Christopher Teather, Sarah Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Poulter, Dr Daniel Thornton, Mike Davies, Glyn Hughes, rh Simon Pritchard, Mark Thurso, John Davies, Philip Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pugh, John Timpson, Mr Edward de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian Raab, Mr Dominic Tomlinson, Justin Dinenage, Caroline Hurd, Mr Nick Randall, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Reckless, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. James, Margot Redwood, rh Mr John Turner, Mr Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Reevell, Simon Uppal, Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Reid, Mr Alan Vara, Mr Shailesh Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vickers, Martin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, rh Mr David Robertson, rh Hugh Walker, Mr Charles Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Rogerson, Dan Walker, Mr Robin Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Ruffley, Mr David Wallace, Mr Ben Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Russell, Sir Bob Ward, Mr David Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Rutley, David Watkinson, Dame Angela Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Sanders, Mr Adrian Weatherley, Mike Elphicke, Charlie Laing, Mrs Eleanor Sandys, Laura Webb, Steve Eustice, George Lamb, Norman Scott, Mr Lee Wharton, James Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Selous, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Shannon, Jim White, Chris Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Shepherd, Sir Richard Williams, Mr Mark Foster, rh Mr Don Leech, Mr John Simmonds, Mark Williams, Roger Fox,rhDrLiam Lefroy, Jeremy Simpson, David Williamson, Gavin Freeman, George Leigh, Mr Edward Skidmore, Chris Willott, Jenny Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Fullbrook, Lorraine Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Smith, Henry Wilson, Sammy Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Smith, Julian Wright, Jeremy Gale, Sir Roger Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Smith, Sir Robert Wright, Simon Garnier, Sir Edward Lidington, rh Mr David Soames, rh Nicholas Young, rh Sir George Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Soubry, Anna Zahawi, Nadhim Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Spencer, Mr Mark Tellers for the Noes: Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Stephenson, Andrew Karen Bradley and Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Stevenson, John Mark Hunter Goodwill, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Question accordingly negatived. Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen That the proposed words be there added. Grayling, rh Chris Menzies, Mark Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Question agreed to. Greening, rh Justine Miller, rh Maria Griffiths, Andrew Milton, Anne The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Gummer, Ben Mordaunt, Penny amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Gyimah, Mr Sam Morgan, Nicky Resolved, Halfon, Robert Morris, Anne Marie Hames, Duncan Morris, David That this House believes that the decision on exercising the Hancock, Mr Mike Morris, James UK’s opt out from EU former third pillar measures should be Hands, Greg Mosley, Stephen taken in the national interest, with consideration given to how a measure contributes to public safety and security, whether practical Harper, Mr Mark Mowat, David co operation is underpinned by the measure, and whether there Harrington, Richard Mulholland, Greg would be a detrimental impact on such co-operation if pursued Harris, Rebecca Munt, Tessa by other mechanisms; and welcomes the commitment made by Hart, Simon Murray, Sheryll the Minister for Europe on 20 January 2011 to a vote in both Harvey, Sir Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Houses of Parliament before the Government makes a formal Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Newmark, Mr Brooks decision on whether it wishes to opt out. 455 12 JUNE 2013 456

Business without Debate Work Capability Assessments Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House DELEGATED LEGISLATION do now adjourn.—(Mr Carmichael.) 7.13 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 2 to 4 together. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Most people here will probably be familiar with the employment and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing support allowance. Between the introduction of the Order No. 118(6)), assessment in October 2008 and February 2012, 1.36 million new claimants were assessed and of those 794,000 were ELECTRICITY declared fit for work. Of those, 311,900 appealed their That the draft Planning Act 2008 (Nationally Significant decision and 116,400 were successful. That means that Infrastructure Projects) (Electric Lines) Order 2013, which was nearly one in 10 of all ESA assessments have been laid before this House on 10 April 2013, in the last Session of overturned. Although the proportion of decisions Parliament, be approved. overturned has started to fall, the overall number remains very high. And those figures do not include all the LICENCES AND LICENSING incapacity benefit claimants currently being migrated That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Descriptions of Entertainment) to ESA—a process that started last year and is due to be (Amendment) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on completed in 2014. The cost of appeals is a considerable 22 April 2013, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved. issue for the Government. This year it is projected to rise to £70 million, up from £50 million. NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE I have considered a number of detailed aspects of this That the draft National Health Service (Direct Payments) (Repeal of Pilot Schemes Limitation) Order 2013, which was laid issue. In May last year I secured a Westminster Hall before this House on 22 April 2013, in the last Session of Parliament, debate on the recommendations for new descriptors for be approved.—(Mr Carmichael.) mental, intellectual and cognitive conditions that were Question agreed to. drawn up by a number of charities. In December last year I secured another debate, in which I highlighted the fact that people are regularly called back for reassessments just months after their previous claim has been granted. Today I want to focus on the provision of audio recording equipment in assessments. I sent the Minister an advance copy of my speech, because this is a serious issue that deserves an attempt to reach a constructive solution. I will spare him the need to spend time telling me that it was my Government who started the employment and support allowance. I know that. It is people’s experience of the system that has shown many of us that it needs substantial reform. The assessments carried out by Atos have been much criticised. Assertions have been made about some of the questions asked and the attitude of assessors. For example, I recently met a constituent—by no stretch of the imagination is she a disability activist—who told me that the assessor made a comment about her handbag, saying, “Well I couldn’t afford that, even on my salary.” My constituent tells me it was a present, but she felt the comment was irrelevant and carried the implication that she did not need the benefit. Such assertions are regularly denied by Atos and not accepted by the Department for Work and Pensions. We even have differences of opinion on the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, with some members feeling that campaigning organisations exaggerate such claims. Audio recording of assessments would allow such disputes to be settled once and for all. Importantly, they would provide new evidence in the event of appeals, but should also improve the quality of assessments, thereby reducing the number of appeals and helping to get things right first time. Assessors would be prompted to ensure that their work was of the highest possible standard—for example, taking more time, asking open as opposed to closed questions, and probing for possible follow-up issues. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech about the importance of quality in the work capability assessment. May I 457 Work Capability Assessments12 JUNE 2013 Work Capability Assessments 458 bring to her attention the situation of my constituent of demand, for two reasons. First, assessors in the pilot George Rolph, who is currently on the 23rd day of his used hand-held devices and the recordings had to be hunger strike about his treatment at the hands of Atos? transferred to computers and burnt to CDs after the When he failed his work capability assessment, he felt assessments. That meant that claimants could not pick he had no choice but to take such drastic action to bring up their recording on the day but had to go to the added to the Government’s attention the failures of the system. effort of making a request in writing. In effect, that required claimants to opt into the pilot and then opt in Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for giving again to get their recording. We also do not know what such a graphic example of the human issues that lie the claimants thought the pilot was about. Often, when behind what might seem to be quite a dry subject in we phone helplines, we are told on a recorded message many respects. that the call will be recorded for staff training purposes. I was pleased when the year 1 Harrington review It is possible that the claimants in the pilot were not recommended that Atos should undertake a pilot to test clear about its purpose. the hypothesis that audio recording would make a difference. Secondly, claimants were told that recordings would be of use to them only in the event of an appeal. Given Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This is a vital issue that the report was completed just days after the pilot in my constituency. Every week my office deals with concluded, most of those involved would not yet have issues arising from the Atos work capability assessment. received a decision on their claim, let alone come to a People who go in for the work capability tribunal test view on whether they would appeal. Demand for copies receive no points at all or very few points. The question might well have been higher had this metric been measured they ask is: “How can they disregard my health?” after a longer period. I therefore ask the Minister to Would not the introduction of audio recordings enable accept that the number of claimants in the pilot who my constituents and the hon. Lady’s to have confidence requested a copy of their recording is not an accurate in the system? reflection of demand, and that the number of people acquiescing to their assessment being recorded is a Sheila Gilmore: That is exactly the point I am trying more appropriate metric to use. to convey. We want to improve the scheme and give Turning to what has happened in the two years since people that confidence. the pilot, I want to refer back to the statement given by I was quite interested today to come across an online the previous Minister in Westminster Hall on 1 February headline in the Daily Mail that said: “Record your 2012. In addition to claiming that there had not been builder to make sure he sticks to his word”. That was much demand for audio recordings, he said that the recommendation from the Under-Secretary of State “we will offer everyone who wants it the opportunity to have their for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member session recorded.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). She was suggesting c. 291WH.] that that would help to resolve disagreements in those situations. In practice, however, it is hard for anyone to have an assessment recorded. The option to request recordings The pilot went ahead in Atos’s Newcastle assessment is not mentioned in the official DWP communications centre between March and May 2011, and an evaluation to claimants. I was reassured to see that the DWP report was submitted to the DWP on 4 June 2011. In a website was updated last week, on 6 June, and that it Westminster Hall debate on 1 February 2012, the previous now states that the Department and Atos are going to Minister, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell amend written communications. It states: (Chris Grayling), set out the Government’s position. He said that due to a lack of demand, audio recording “We are working to introduce more widespread information for all claimants as soon as possible.” would not be rolled out for all assessments. Specifically he said: However, it is now two years since the pilot, and the “We decided not to implement universal recording because, Department is still “working” to have this included in based on the trial experience, people did not want it.”—[Official its communications. It does not seem to be too complicated Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, c. 292WH.] a sentence to include in letters to claimants. I am afraid that that assertion is not justified. The Atos My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham pilot concluded that (Stephen Timms) said in a debate on 4 September that “68% of customers agreed to the recording when contacted by even when requests are made, they are not always met telephone prior to the appointment.” due to a lack of equipment. A freedom of information Due to some claimants not turning up for their assessment, response from 22 May this year indicated that Atos now or eventually deciding that they did not want a recording, has some 50 audio recording machines, but this is the figure for those whose assessments were recorded inadequate given that over 11,000 assessments are dropped to 46%. That figure is still substantial, however, undertaken across the country every week. Another and the demand for audio recordings is reflected in one freedom of information request from 23 May suggests of Atos’s key conclusions, which stated: that this national roll-out may even be a temporary “Our recommendation would be that recording should be measure that will end later this year. become routine as it is in a call centre or, for example, NHS Will the Minister confirm when DWP communications Direct.” will be able to inform claimants that they can have their Parliamentary questions and freedom of information assessment recorded? To how many audio recording requests have yielded another metric to defend the devices does Atos now have access? Will he confirm Government’s position—namely, that only 1% of the whether the recordings currently taking place are part claimants in the pilot requested a copy of their recording. of a wider roll-out that is intended to be permanent or However, that cannot be regarded as an accurate reflection merely a further pilot? 459 Work Capability Assessments12 JUNE 2013 Work Capability Assessments 460

[Sheila Gilmore] In conclusion, I want to raise three sets of questions. First, will the Minister accept on the basis of how the The report from Professor Harrington in 2010 prompted pilot was carried out that requests for copies of audio the Newcastle pilot, and it is worth looking at what he recordings should not be cited as a reflection of demand, has had to say on this issue since then. In his December and does he accept that the number of people who want 2012 report, which was his third and final one, he said: to have their assessment recorded is a more appropriate “The pilot of audio recording of assessments has also been measurement to use? Secondly, will the Minister tell me subject to much debate…The Review has seen little evidence from exactly what steps are being taken, and how quickly, to the DWP evaluation of the audio recording pilot of 2011 that the inform claimants that their assessments can be recorded? universal audio recording of assessments would improve their If people do not know that that service is available, they quality…further monitoring and evaluation work needs to be will hardly ask for it. Will the Minister also tell me how completed before a decision can be made.” many audio recording devices Atos now has access to, The Minister might like to interpret Harrington’s reference and whether there will be a wider, permanent roll-out or to “little evidence” as suggesting that audio recordings merely a further pilot? Finally, will the Minister accept make no difference, but I would argue that what he was Professor Harrington’s call for more work to be done, getting at was the inadequacy of the pilot commissioned so that there can be a proper evaluation? and accepted by the DWP, which was why he called for more examination of the issue. 7.30 pm What the assessors did in this pilot was to take a The Minister of State, Department for Work and small number of reports, review them in light of the Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban): I congratulate the hon. recordings and conclude that they tallied with each Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing other—that what the written report said and what the the debate. I also thank her for being unusually helpful recording said were the same. Subsequently, to justify and supplying a copy of her speech to my office in their policy, the main arguments from the Government advance. I hope that that will enable us to engage in a have both highlighted and ignored the various metrics reasoned debate on how we are to introduce the audio of demand mentioned in the report. Neither of those recording of work capability assessments. It is important, approaches answers the key question: do audio recordings and we must get it right. It accords firmly with our improve the quality of assessments? commitment to improving the WCA process continuously. Instead, I would contend that the key performance The interest in audio recording that has been expressed indicator for the work capability assessment should be in parliamentary questions, freedom of information the proportion of decisions that are subsequently overturned requests and, indeed, today’s debate demonstrates the on appeal. A more robust pilot would have involved importance of this issue. We fully appreciate the benefits taking larger samples of both recorded and unrecorded of offering audio recording to those who request it as assessments and examining the proportion of successful part of their face-to-face assessments, but, while we appeals for both. If they were the same, it would have accept that there has been an increase in demand for its been fair to conclude the recordings make no difference; use, we must be sure that we understand the evidence but if there were a smaller proportion of successful base, including that relating to the value to claimants. appeals from those that were recorded, it would be Making knee-jerk policy is not an option. The evidence equally fair to conclude that they were worth while. needs to be balanced against potential costs, and that is the process in which my officials are currently engaged. We need to be clear, too, whether the current roll-out I shall say more about that shortly. is actually just another pilot still to be evaluated. If it is to be evaluated, it would be useful to know what is As the hon. Lady said, my predecessor, my right hon. going to be evaluated. This has a relevance beyond the Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), employment and support allowance because the DWP made a statement on audio recording back in February now says that it will make a decision about audio 2012. He said on that occasion: recording of personal independence payment assessments “we will offer everyone who wants it the opportunity to have their after the evaluation of the ESA experience. That is session recorded.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, despite the fact that one of the companies tendering for c. 291-2WH.] that PIP assessment, Capita, originally offered to audio Since then we have striven to honour that commitment, record all its assessments. Asking the right questions and all those having face-to-face assessments have been about what the evaluation is for is crucial. able to request that their sessions be recorded. The present policy is that claimants can ask for their Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Is it not important to assessments to be recorded, either by means of the test not only the impact on quality but the impact on service offered by the Department for Work and Pensions the confidence of those assessed? and Atos Healthcare or through the use of their own recording equipment. Requests for an audio recording, whether through the use of Atos Healthcare’s equipment Sheila Gilmore: Indeed. As I think I said earlier, this or through the use of equipment provided by a claimant, may well answer some of the issues. If people are must be made in advance when a face-to-face assessment anxious about these assessments, their confidence would is arranged. The purpose of that is to provide adequate certainly be improved in this way. If, as some suggest, notice so that recording equipment can be made available the assertions made by claimants are exaggerated, that and ready for use. would be established, too, and we would all be happier. We need to know—it is a bit unclear—whether we are Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): A constituent going to re-run another pilot, whether what is going on of mine provided her own equipment for her son’s work is a pilot and, if so, how it is going to be evaluated. capability assessment. One tribunal judged that it was 461 Work Capability Assessments12 JUNE 2013 Work Capability Assessments 462 admissible while another judged that it was not, because people asking for a copy. I thought that was one point it was not clear that the nurse involved had given in the hon. Lady’s thoughtful speech that was not well consent. Allowing claimants to provide their own equipment substantiated. leads to complications. It would be much better if the The results also provided little evidence that audio equipment were clearly offered, and, indeed, if its provision recording of face-to-face assessments improved the quality became standard. of assessments. There was only limited evidence of improvement in the customer experience for some Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention individuals. Of those who took part, fewer than half the to how difficult it is for people to provide their own claimants thought that audio recording would be helpful equipment, and to the importance of ensuring that to them. Those are the key areas that Professor Harrington proper controls govern such matters as consent. wanted to understand when he called for the original Atos has access to 31 audio recording machines, pilot. As a result the Department decided not to introduce three of which are currently being repaired. It also has audio recording of face-to-face assessments universally access to 21 cassette machines which are on loan from on the basis that a facility for all assessments would be the DWP. We constantly monitor the updating of audio extremely costly, with no apparent substantial benefit recording assessments to ensure that the supply of the or improvement in the quality of assessments. We ensured equipment meets demand. that when claimants asked for an audio recording, we Let me put our commitment into more context. Those were in a position to provide that facility. That was not who want an audio recording can request one, but a intended to provide a permanent solution, but it is claimant has no legal right to an audio-recorded important in helping to provide the evidence for further assessment, and neither the DWP nor Atos Healthcare changes. has a legal obligation to provide an audio-recording Let me say a little about current demand. Since the service or equipment. Our commitment is based on introduction of a limited audio recording facility in our intention to provide the best possible service for September 2011, fewer than 4,000 claimants have requested claimants, but the unavailability of audio recording a recorded assessment. To date, Atos has conducted facilities does not mean that the WCA process can be more than 2,000 audio-recorded assessments. During delayed indefinitely. That could slow down the process that period almost 1.5 million face-to-face assessments unnecessarily. Since the introduction of audio recording, for both ESA and incapacity benefit reassessments have only nine requests have been refused owing to the been completed. Therefore, the proportion of recorded unavailability of equipment. assessments is less than 0.2% of all assessments carried out during the period. We need to continue to monitor As the hon. Member for Edinburgh East said, Professor that take-up, but universal recording for such low numbers Harrington’s first independent review of the WCA does not seem prudent and might not provide value for recommended that the Atos Healthcare pilot audio money. recording of assessments should be used to determine whether such an approach is helpful for claimants and We have always been clear that the provision of a improves the quality of assessments. In making that limited audio recording service is a temporary measure recommendation, Professor Harrington rightly noted that needs to be evaluated fully before a final decision is the need to balance potential drawbacks such as the taken on the future of the service. As I have already increased burdens on tribunals and the sharing of sensitive said, we need the evidence to show that investing potentially personal data, with potential improvements in both large sums of money into the provision of universal assessor and claimant behaviours. recording will improve quality and will be used by claimants. Following that recommendation, the audio pilot took We agree with the comments in Professor Harrington’s place in the Newcastle assessment centre during spring third report in which he expressed views about audio 2011. The pilot involved 500 claimants being offered the recording needing to improve the quality of assessments. chance to volunteer to have their assessment recorded. He said that The results of the pilot showed that less than half of “further monitoring and evaluation work needs to be completed those offered ended up having an audio recorded assessment before a decision can be made”. and only a handful, less than 1%, requested a copy of That is why we have decided to extend the evaluation their assessment. period until the end of the summer to allow us to gather The hon. Lady has raised concerns about the metrics additional data on quality and potential take-up for a we use when considering demand for audio recording. subsequent robust decision on any potential future audio- We feel that the metrics used are key in showing the recording provision. We now have a benchmark for exact demand during the pilot. current take-up but, as has been rightly pointed out, we cannot get a true comparison until we routinely let Sheila Gilmore: Perhaps the Minister was about to people know about its availability. I am pleased to say come to this point, but I am sorry that he has chosen that we are therefore taking steps to boost awareness of simply to repeat the 1% figure without addressing the audio recording. criticisms that have been raised—I have heard them The Department and Atos are in the process of from others, too. The context of the pilot made it amending written communications to claimants by updating difficult for people to get a copy and the pilot was then the WCA AL1C form. The document is sent to claimants evaluated very quickly. when they need to arrange a face-to-face assessment and will provide more information on how to arrange Mr Hoban: I do not think that it was that difficult to an audio-recorded assessment. We expect the revised get hold of a copy. The recording might need to be held form to be sent out to claimants by the end of next on a handheld device before it is transferred to a computer month, once the necessary changes have been made and and a transcript is printed, but that does not stop the form has been cleared for use. 463 Work Capability Assessments12 JUNE 2013 Work Capability Assessments 464

Sheila Gilmore: Perhaps the Minister might be able to ensure that claimant expectation can be met, the four-week explain why it has taken nearly two years to make that safeguard for requesting audio-recorded assessments amendment. If I understood him correctly, he said that has been removed. That will enable us to gather a fuller the evaluation of all this process was being extended to picture of demand and capacity, in order to inform a the end of the summer, so if the revised letter is not full and robust evaluation. going out until the end of this month or the end of next To conclude, we are continuing to evaluate the costs month, there will be very little time to judge whether and benefits of the current approach, and will await the that has made any difference. results of a further evaluation during the summer before making a further decision on the future of this service Mr Hoban: The volume of people going through the and how it can improve the WCA. WCA on a monthly basis is significant—I believe that 100,000 claims are made for ESA every month—so it Heidi Alexander rose— will not take long to find out the take-up rate, although we need to make sure that the pilot has the right Mr Hoban: I just want to finish these remarks. amount of time to gather sufficient evidence. Earlier the Although I acknowledge the increase in audio recording hon. Lady was arguing in favour of a shorter pilot and and potentially the recommendation of Professor now she is potentially arguing for a longer pilot in order Harrington on this matter, we also need properly to to get the evaluation right, but she makes an important evaluate the cost and benefits of the extension of recording. point. We are doing just that. By raising awareness of the In addition to the letter I mentioned, the Department service we will be able to gauge demand, assess usage of has recently provided more information about the audio- the recordings by claimants and tribunals—it is important recording facility on the “Inside Government” section to understand where tribunals want to see transcripts of of the gov.uk website. By ensuring that more people are recordings—and evaluate the wider impact on quality. aware of the facility we will get a much better picture of As a word of caution, I say that the original evaluation how many people are applying for an audio recording demonstrates a reasonable level of interest from claimants and a better assessment of the level of demand. The but a low level of take-up of the actual recordings and hon. Lady rightly made the point that we do need to no impact on quality. I am determined, as I have made understand what the demand actually is. clear in debates in this House since I took on this role, In the past, the Department has asked Atos Healthcare to improve the WCA, but I am prepared to do so only to apply a processing safeguard whereby requests for where the benefits are demonstrable. audio-recorded assessments should be accommodated Question put and agreed to. within four weeks, and where that was not possible, the assessment should go ahead without a recording. However, 7.43 pm during the remainder of the evaluation period, to help House adjourned. 465 12 JUNE 2013 Deferred Division 466

Deferred Division Hollingbery, George Patel, Priti Hollobone, Mr Philip Pawsey, Mark Hopkins, Kris Penrose, John TRIBUNALS AND INQUIRIES Horwood, Martin Perry, Claire That the draft Employment Tribunals and the Employment Howell, John Phillips, Stephen Appeal Tribunal Fees Order 2013, which was laid before this Hughes, rh Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric House on 24 April 2013, in the last Session of Parliament, be Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pincher, Christopher approved. Hunter, Mark Pritchard, Mark The House divided: Ayes 272, Noes 209. Huppert, Dr Julian Pugh, John Division No. 26] Hurd, Mr Nick Raab, Mr Dominic Jackson, Mr Stewart Randall, rh Mr John James, Margot Redwood, rh Mr John AYES Javid, Sajid Rees-Mogg, Jacob Adams, Nigel Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reid, Mr Alan Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Aldous, Peter Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Joseph Robertson, rh Hugh Alexander, rh Danny Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Amess, Mr David Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel Rosindell, Andrew Andrew, Stuart Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kelly, Chris Rudd, Amber Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kirby, Simon Russell, Sir Bob Baldry, Sir Tony Dunne, Mr Philip Knight, rh Mr Greg Rutley, David Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Sandys, Laura Barclay, Stephen Ellison, Jane Lamb, Norman Scott, Mr Lee Baron, Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lancaster, Mark Selous, Andrew Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Sharma, Alok Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Latham, Pauline Shelbrooke, Alec Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Laws, rh Mr David Shepherd, Sir Richard Bellingham, Mr Henry Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Simmonds, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Simpson, Mr Keith Berry, Jake Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Skidmore, Chris Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Leech, Mr John Smith, Miss Chloe Binley, Mr Brian Featherstone, Lynne Lefroy, Jeremy Smith, Henry Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward Smith, Julian Blackwood, Nicola Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Sir Robert Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Soames, rh Nicholas Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Soubry, Anna Bottomley, Sir Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bradley, Karen Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Stephenson, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stevenson, John Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Stewart, Bob Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Stewart, Iain Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Stewart, Rory Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Macleod, Mary Streeter, Mr Gary Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Maude, rh Mr Francis Stride, Mel Brokenshire, James Glen, John May, rh Mrs Theresa Stunell, rh Andrew Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Sturdy, Julian Browne, Mr Jeremy Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Jason Swales, Ian Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Swinson, Jo Buckland, Mr Robert Green, rh Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Syms, Mr Robert Burrowes, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Burstow, rh Paul Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Teather, Sarah Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Thornton, Mike Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Timpson, Mr Edward Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Tomlinson, Justin Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Tredinnick, David Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Turner, Mr Andrew Clappison, Mr James Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Uppal, Paul Clark, rh Greg Harrington, Richard Morris, James Vaizey, Mr Edward Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hart, Simon Mowat, David Vickers, Martin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Walker, Mr Charles Coffey, Dr Thérèse Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Walker, Mr Robin Collins, Damian Hayes, rh Mr John Murray, Sheryll Ward, Mr David Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver Nuttall, Mr David Watkinson, Dame Angela Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Weatherley, Mike Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Offord, Dr Matthew Webb, Steve Davies, Glyn Henderson, Gordon Ollerenshaw, Eric Wharton, James Davies, Philip Hendry, Charles Opperman, Guy Wheeler, Heather Davis, rh Mr David Herbert, rh Nick Osborne, rh Mr George White, Chris de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian Ottaway, Richard Whittingdale, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Hoban, Mr Mark Parish, Neil Wiggin, Bill 467 Deferred Division12 JUNE 2013 Deferred Division 468

Williams, Mr Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Irranca-Davies, Huw Owen, Albert Williams, Roger Wright, Jeremy James, Mrs Siân C. Pearce, Teresa Williams, Stephen Wright, Simon Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Toby Williamson, Gavin Young, rh Sir George Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen Willott, Jenny Zahawi, Nadhim Johnson, Diana Qureshi, Yasmin Jones, Graham Raynsford, rh Mr Nick NOES Jones, Helen Reed, Mr Jamie Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Emma Abbott, Ms Diane David, Wayne Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reynolds, Jonathan Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Riordan, Mrs Linda Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Denham, rh Mr John Kendall, Liz Ritchie, Ms Margaret Alexander, Heidi Dobbin, Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Robertson, John Ali, Rushanara Docherty, Thomas Lammy, rh Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Ashworth, Jonathan Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Bailey, Mr Adrian Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Leslie, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Bain, Mr William Doughty, Stephen Lewell-Buck, Emma Roy, Lindsay Balls, rh Ed Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruane, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doyle, Gemma Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bayley, Hugh Dromey, Jack Love, Mr Andrew Sarwar, Anas Beckett, rh Margaret Dugher, Michael Lucas, Caroline Sawford, Andy Begg, Dame Anne Durkan, Mark MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Seabeck, Alison Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Ms Angela Mactaggart, Fiona Shannon, Jim Berger, Luciana Eagle, Maria Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sharma, Mr Virendra Betts, Mr Clive Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana Sheerman, Mr Barry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Efford, Clive Main, Mrs Anne Sheridan, Jim Blenkinsop, Tom Elliott, Julie Malhotra, Seema Simpson, David Blomfield, Paul Ellman, Mrs Louise Marsden, Mr Gordon Skinner, Mr Dennis Blunkett, rh Mr David Engel, Natascha McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Esterson, Bill McCann, Mr Michael Smith, Nick Brennan, Kevin Evans, Chris McCrea, Dr William Smith, Owen Brown, Lyn Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Field, rh Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, Mr Russell Flello, Robert McGovern, Alison Stringer, Graham Bryant, Chris Flynn, Paul McGovern, Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela Byrne, rh Mr Liam Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Alan Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Thornberry, Emily Caton, Martin Godsiff, Mr Roger Meale, Sir Alan Turner, Karl Champion, Sarah Greatrex, Tom Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek Chapman, Jenny Green, Kate Miliband, rh Edward Umunna, Mr Chuka Clark, Katy Greenwood, Lilian Miller, Andrew Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr Tom Griffith, Nia Moon, Mrs Madeleine Vaz, Valerie Clwyd, rh Ann Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica Walley, Joan Coaker, Vernon Hain, rh Mr Peter Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watts, Mr Dave Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Weir, Mr Mike Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Fabian (Easington) Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cooper, rh Yvette Hanson, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Williamson, Chris Crausby, Mr David Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Winnick, Mr David Creagh, Mary Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Creasy, Stella Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Alex Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Woodcock, John Cunningham, Mr Jim Hermon, Lady Onwurah, Chi Wright, David Cunningham, Sir Tony Hillier, Meg Osborne, Sandra Wright, Mr Iain Dakin, Nic Hilling, Julie Danczuk, Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hopkins, Kelvin Question accordingly agreed to. 71WH 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 72WH Rights) abuses have taken place, and when asked about the Westminster Hall abuses in a recent interview, Lieutenant General Myint Soe said: Wednesday 12 June 2013 “Don’t believe everything you hear.” Perhaps one of the most disturbing elements of the conflict in Kachin has been the widespread use of rape [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] by the Burmese army. It is reported that more than half of the women raped or gang raped by soldiers were also Rakhine and Kachin State (Human Rights) tortured, mutilated and killed. Perhaps the Minister Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting could explain why, in the G8 summit, the Prime Minister be now adjourned.—(Mr John Randall.) decided to leave Burma out of the preventing sexual violence initiative? I would have thought that highlighting 9.30 am the increased use of rape by the Burmese army was of more importance than promoting an inaccurate positive Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): It is a image of Burma, which is what we have seen in recent privilege to open this debate and to serve under your months. I urge the Minister to press the Burmese chairmanship, Mr Hood. The issues of human rights, Government to enter proper political dialogue on Kachin equality and justice and the plight of the persecuted state to ensure that they address the root causes of the people of Burma are potent for Members of both violence instead of constantly delaying such talks. Houses and have caused considerable concern to a number of my constituents in Bolton South East who In Rakhine state—or what is now known as Ankhar have family and relatives living in Burma. Indeed, a state—we see the heartbreaking plight of the Rohingya number of them formed a small campaign group called people, described by the UN as the the Burma Action group, which has organised two “most persecuted group in the world”. peaceful vigils in Bolton town centre. I thank both that They are a little publicised Muslim people, who are group for its hard work in raising awareness of human historically located in the coastal Rakhine state, dating rights abuses in Burma and the London-based charity, their ethnic lineage in the region over centuries. When Burma Campaign, for its excellent work. I acknowledge the military junta under General Ne Win, an ethnic and pay tribute to Members who have worked hard to Burmese, came to power in 1962, it implemented raise the awareness of some of the issues, especially my a policy of “Burmanisation”, which was based on a hon. Friends the Members for Leicester South (Jonathan nationalist ideology of racial purity. It was a crude Ashworth) and for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara attempt to bolster the majority Burmese ethnic identity Ali). and to strip the Rohingya of any legitimacy. The Rohingya The Foreign Secretary once said that the Government were declared foreigners in their own native land and of Burma must be judged by their actions and not their labelled illegal Bengali immigrants. By stripping them words, yet over the past 18 months the UK Government of citizenship and denying them citizenship, the have reversed a decade-long policy of prioritising human Government institutionalised discriminatory practices rights in Burma and supported the lifting of all European in Rakhine state. sanctions on the country despite the fact that none of The Rohingya have no rights to own land or property the human rights benchmarks of the European Union and are unable to travel outside their villages, repair has been met. Even The Daily Telegraph described that their decaying places of worship, receive education, or decision as “deeply embarrassing”. Undoubtedly, there even marry and have children without rarely granted have been some changes in Burma over the past two Government permission. Although I am sure that hon. years, but still more need to be encouraged. However, Members will recall the events of last summer, I will the policy must be carefully calibrated, taking into none the less run through them quickly. In June 2012, account the wide disparity between words and action. deadly violence erupted between the Buddhist Rakhine Burma still has one of the worst human rights records community and the Rohingya Muslims. Human Rights in the world. Since Thein Sein became president, human Watch, a respected and independent international body, rights abuses, which violate international law, have increased. reported that state security forces failed to intervene to In June 2011, the Burmese army in Kachin state stop the violence or protect civilians, and in some cases broke a 17-year ceasefire with the Kachin Independence they directly participated. Rather than defuse the situation, Organisation, and for the past two years it has pursued President Thein Sein was highly provocative. He called a brutal war against the Kachin people, targeting civilians for the “illegal” Rohingya to be sent to a third country. and violating international law. The United Nations Since most Rohingya, even those whose families have special rapporteur has documented widespread abuses, resided in Burma for generations, lack formal legal which constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity. status, his language implied that the great majority of Rape and gang rape, torture, executions, arson, mortar Burma’s Rohingya did not belong in the country. His bombing of civilian villages, beatings and the use of comments were eagerly seized on by those who favour child soldiers are commonplace. The UN Human Rights the expulsion of all Rohingya from Burma. Council resolution on Burma, passed in March 2013, In a recent Human Rights Watch report, a copy of highlighted serious human rights abuses that violate which I have with me, it is documented that the violence international law, including arbitrary detention, forced that resumed in October was a co-ordinated campaign displacement, land confiscations, rape and other forms of ethnic cleansing, which sought to remove or relocate of sexual violence, torture and cruel, inhuman and the state’s Muslim population. The October attacks degrading treatment, as well as other violations of were organised and carried out by local Rakhine political international humanitarian law. None the less, the party officials, Buddhist monks and ordinary Rakhines, Government of Burma still deny that human rights often directly supported by state security forces. 73WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 74WH Rights) Rights) [Yasmin Qureshi] Then we will know the truth, and we will be able to hold to account the people responsible. Of course, such an The report says that Rohingya men, women and investigation may also provide useful information and children were killed; some of them were secretly buried act as the basis for future reconciliation. in mass graves, and their villages and neighbourhoods The Rohingya people have no place on earth to were razed. In the months since the violence, the Burmese call home; they are a stateless people. The Burmese Government have done little to investigate the killings Government should face international pressure to repeal and abuses or to hold people to account for such crimes. the discriminatory 1982 citizenship law. All the Rohingya Along with complicity in crimes against humanity, people want is reinstatement of their citizenship in their the Burmese Government have contributed to the severe own land, and the dignity, human rights and opportunities humanitarian crisis facing the displaced Rohingya and that come with it. Human rights must be the single most other Muslim communities. More than 125,000 people defining test for the Burmese Government’s commitment are now living in internally displaced persons camps in to democratic change and the rule of law. It is a test that urgent need of humanitarian assistance, yet the Government they are failing. have consistently obstructed the delivery of aid to them. I sincerely ask our Government to push for an The camps are overcrowded and lack adequate food, independent inquiry into what is going on in Burma, shelter, water and sanitation, as well as medical care. because the evidence is clear. These are not just communal Unless there is a dramatic improvement in conditions in riots because different communities do not get on with the camps, including unfettered access for international each other. Since the 1960s, there has been a deliberate humanitarian organisations, the situation will almost policy of effectively trying to drive out people who are certainly deteriorate further, especially with the coming not ethnic Burmese Buddhist. monsoon season. We are faced with considerable evidence of crimes Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I against humanity; ethnic cleansing; mass graves; congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this timely and the obstruction of humanitarian aid to displaced debate on a very important matter. Does she agree that, communities. Those claims should not be taken lightly. on occasions such as this, it is international pressure There has been a tendency to describe the violence in and the embarrassment and shame of the individual Rakhine state as communal and a reflection of deep-seated Government responsible for many of the actions that hatred between communities on the ground. However, will bring the necessary change, and that we all have a the findings in the Human Rights Watch report tell a part to play in applying pressure and bringing very different story—of extensive state involvement, embarrassment and eventually shame to the Government and planned killings and destruction of property, as responsible? well as the forced displacement of a population. Only last month, the Foreign Secretary congratulated Yasmin Qureshi: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman the Burmese Government on their role in leading on that point. That is why we are asking other Governments “remarkable changes” in the country. That upbeat to put pressure on the Burmese Government. There assessment was premature, just as the EU was premature have been suggestions that we are almost in haste to in its haste to lift economic sanctions on Burma. Human have negotiations and win contracts with the Burmese, Rights Watch, an internationally respected non- to increase financial gains or financial stability. That is governmental organisation, has carried out more work all very well, but the human rights issue is paramount, and it has found that ethnic cleansing and crimes against and the Burmese Government must be told that what humanity have been committed, and that Government they are doing is wrong. forces were involved. As I was saying, the issue is not just that different There are some questions that we naturally ask. Why communities are not getting on with each other, as it have no steps been taken to hold to account for their has been described. Those who have studied the history actions those who are responsible for organising the of Burma, particularly what has been going on since the violence? It is easy to call on the Burmese Government 1960s, know that there is a deliberate, calculated policy to investigate themselves when we are fully aware that effectively to get rid of people in Burma who are not they will not do so. The Burmese Government-organised ethnically Burmese Buddhist. In Kachin state, which I Rakhine commission, which was set up to investigate have talked about, most of the people who are persecuted the violence, did not even consider any issues relating to are, in fact, Christians; they are treated badly. The who was responsible. Rohingya people are Muslims. In another state, the There needs to be an international investigation into Karen people are treated just as badly because they the violence. I urge the Minister to support the establishment happen to be neither Christian, Burmese Buddhist nor of a UN commission of inquiry to examine the allegations Muslim. It seems that there is a pattern. There is not of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. After just one group the Burmese Government are against; all, we worked with the rest of the international community there is a very sinister and deep underlying issue. The to set up the International Criminal Tribunals for the motive behind most of these actions is to get rid of Former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda, precisely because other communities and other religions in Burma, not there had been ethnic cleansing and crimes against only to leave the Burmese Buddhist community as the humanity in those countries. I do not see why there main community but perhaps to keep Burma almost should not be a similar inquiry in Burma; even if there ethnically pure Burmese and Buddhist. is not a tribunal, at least in the first place there should That is why the state has been completely complicit, be an independent inquiry led by the UN, which can as has the army. Yes, Burma held elections last year, investigate and deal with all the issues that have arisen. which we thought would bring progress, but everybody Obviously it must be an impartial international investigation. knows that all that happened was that most of the 75WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 76WH Rights) Rights) generals took off their uniforms and got into civilian being elected to Parliament. We need to recognise that clothes, and the majority of the people who are involved the restoration of some stability in the country has led in Parliament are military people. There is still very to rapid economic growth, the rate of which the Library much a military dictatorship in every form. The situation briefing states was estimated at 6.5% last year. Let us should not be seen as conflict between communities face it: that is something we cannot match in this who are not getting on; a much worse and far more country. There are plans for fair and free elections in sinister agenda is being pursued by those in power at the 2015. Those are all things that we ought to celebrate moment in Burma. and encourage and not in any way undermine. In the past, other Governments have gone into various The reality is also that Burma is the poorest country parts of the world on the basis that there were human in south-east Asia; it is a by-word for poverty and rights violations. I am not for one minute suggesting a under-investment and, as the hon. Lady passionately military intervention, but there should be robust sanctions pointed out, for discrimination as well. I support exactly and a robust programme against what the Burmese what the hon. Lady said—that discrimination is not Government are doing. They should be held to account. casual and not accidental; it is clearly orchestrated and At the G8 summit that is taking place, rape will be state-sanctioned, or at least the state allows things to looked at in different countries. Burma has been omitted proceed with complete impunity. Reports of destruction from those countries, yet Burma is the place where most of mosques and homes, and attacks on individuals, rapes are taking place. As the Minister may be aware, with the police and security forces standing by and many years ago an international case held that rape is, simply allowing it to happen, illustrate that point. in fact, a form of genocide, because the idea of carrying I do not want us to be blind to our own history, out rape—not to get graphic—is effectively to ensure either. There is a tendency for us—perhaps particularly that the women of the population being attacked are in England, but certainly in western countries—to imagine impregnated by members of other ethnic groups, and that we have lived for the past 1,000 years in countries therefore rape is effectively about trying to get rid of with secure human rights, where these things could that particular generation. There is a high level of rape never have happened, and we seek to export that to in Burma, and it is an indicator of what I described other people. I remind hon. Members that 200 years earlier, which was not scaremongering or exaggeration; ago I would not have been permitted to be in this it seems to be part of a ploy to make Burma a Buddhist House, because I am not a member of the Church of Burmese country. Surely that cannot be right, when England. there have been communities made up of different So we have history ourselves. Even 70 years ago, we ethnic or religious groups living in Burma for hundreds had a somewhat flaky history about what to do about of years. the Jews—the internment of Jews who came from Germany, I thank the Minister for listening to my speech, and I for example, is not necessarily something that we would hope that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister want to celebrate. The idea of universal human rights is will be able to take this matter further. politically contested, even now, within this building. We sometimes need to stand in other people’s shoes. 9.49 am Burma is having to catch up with 200 years of our Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): It is a pleasure history and our developing understanding of what it to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I am means to have a civilised, mature democracy. It is only pleased to take part in this debate and I congratulate to be expected that that will be a difficult and sometimes the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) painful process. on securing it. This is the most recent in a series of debates, each of which has shown that hon. Members Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Although are passionately committed to seeing Burma emerge as the right hon. Gentleman is right to acknowledge the a successful, flourishing country with a mature and time it took us to achieve the standards that we hope maturing society at peace with itself. Unfortunately, other countries will achieve, would he not agree that although a lot of progress has been made, that is not the now our role and that of the EU, in engaging with case at the moment. Burma, is to apply our influence to ensure that history I am also here because, like the hon. Lady, I have does not repeat itself and that people in Burma who are been approached by constituents concerned about the being persecuted do not have to wait hundreds of years human rights situation in Burma—not exclusively the before they have the kinds of rights that he enjoys now, matters on the Order Paper today. As the hon. Lady and which his forefathers should have had? rightly said, conflicts in various parts of Burma involve all the minority groups in the country, including minority Andrew Stunell: The hon. Lady, for whom I have a lot religious groups such as Christian and Muslim groups of time, could have been reading the next paragraph of as well as animist groups and those from other marginal my speech, so I have to agree with her. Indeed, our own religions, and they seem to involve just about any group history should give us the determination to help and that does not have some claim to what might be described support other countries and ensure that they do not as pure Burmese heritage or lineage. That cannot be have to spend 200 years getting to where we have got. right. The persecution of religious and racial minorities—of I give credit to the work that successive Governments those who have been excluded from citizenship—is what have done, particularly in the past three years, in making this debate is about and what I want to spend a few this country the biggest aid donor to Burma at the minutes talking about. moment. That gives us a significant role and voice in It would be wrong not to recognise that there has respect of Burma’s future and how it should develop. A been progress, as shown by the 42 by-elections last year contribution of some £1 million was made last year that resulted, for the first time, in Opposition Members towards improving governance and civic society in Burma, 77WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 78WH Rights) Rights) [Andrew Stunell] and it is a function of any state to ensure that those within its borders are free to worship and live as they and humanitarian help was in the order of £2 million or wish. £3 million. That means that it must be right for us to Let me echo the words of the hon. Lady by saying engage strongly, as a country, as well as through EU that it is puzzling why Burma is not on the preventing and UN institutions, with the Burmese authorities to sexual violence initiative list. I have seen some of the ensure that our voice, and our learning, can be shared parliamentary answers on the issue. As somebody who with them. was giving parliamentary answers himself until last Of course, the humanitarian aid and support is going September, I know how they are written and what lies in not simply because there are poor people and a harsh behind them. There really is no good reason why we climate in Burma, but because of the purges and the should not be saying that we want to put Burma on the cleansing that the hon. Member for Bolton South East list. It is an excellent initiative, which is capable of doing outlined so well. That is part of a bigger pattern, as she a lot of good. We should take real credit for initiating also said. It is to be welcomed that the military forces and promoting it, but there is a strange reluctance to have signed some kind of ceasefire in 12 out of the apply it in this case. 14 different conflicts that had been going on in Burma, The hon. Lady commented on the removal of sanctions. but those remain fragile and do not in any way seem to It is perhaps worth underlining that military sanctions represent the military power structure’s accepting the remain in place, and rightly so. However, I would like to legitimacy of alternative views and alternative religious hear from the Minister whether consideration has been persuasions, let alone alternative ethnicities as having given to making the withdrawal of sanctions conditional legitimacy inside the country. We can welcome the fact on further positive developments. Sanctions have been that there is less conflict in some parts of Burma, but we lifted, but they could be reimposed, and the Burmese also need to recognise that that does not mean that the authorities need to be clear that that is a consideration. underlying problems have been confronted and resolved. The hon. Lady talked about the UK supporting a UN commission of inquiry, and there are established I think—perhaps the Minister will comment on this—that mechanisms for doing that. What is the Government’s there is a certain amount of game-playing by the military view of how such an initiative might be proceeded with? authorities in Burma. They gave in to international If the Minister’s brief does not allow him to say that, pressure, and pressure from their own citizens, to go will he at least tell us that the views of Members through at least the appearance of sharing power and speaking in this debate will be taken back to the Foreign drawing in the Opposition, but, as the hon. Lady said, Office and the Prime Minister, to assist them in forming the current President is a general, but not with his the view that they need to support that inquiry initiative uniform on. as soon as possible? Some of the macho posturing that we have seen in I am not one of those Members who have been to conflicts inside Burma comes in the category of flexing Burma and seen it first hand; I have only newspaper muscles and demonstrating the role and strength—and reports and briefings. Some of those briefings have been perhaps the necessity, as the military authorities would eloquently put to me by constituents with first-hand, or see it—of continued military participation in the governance at least immediate second-hand, knowledge of the country. of Burma. That is surely something we need to keep a There are real prospects for peace and development, close eye on, and I hope Britain will challenge it. and we celebrated that in this very building only 18 months ago. However, there are worrying and dangerous I notice, again from the papers prepared for the signs that the process is going off track, and I hope the debate, that the UK was proud to boast that its military Minister will reassure us that the Government are officials were the first foreign military officials to visit determined to help the Burmese authorities to get back Burma since 1950 or some other early date. I can see the on track, stay on track and deliver a peaceful, prosperous value of getting alongside the military forces in Burma and inclusive Burma in due course. and of demonstrating to Burmese military officials and leaders our forces’ values and their role in civic society, but I would be concerned if we were showing them how 10.5 am to be better at suppressing internal dissent. It would be Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): It is a interesting if the Minister commented on the role of pleasure, as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, our military mission and on the placing of a defence Mr Hood. representative in the embassy in Burma. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton At the moment, we are seeing a denial of citizenship South East (Yasmin Qureshi) on securing this important and deliberate tactics to drive out minorities. That is all debate. As she knows, I recently visited Rakhine state, cloaked in a dangerous racial nationalism, which we in courtesy of Refugees International and Burma Campaign western Europe have, thankfully, utterly rejected. I hope UK. I had the opportunity to visit Rohingya, Kaman the Minister will be forthright in saying that we are and Rakhine camps. I went because I wanted to see first determined to help Burma do the same and to reject hand the humanitarian challenges faced by those utterly that nationalism, as it develops its state, which it communities, and particularly by the Rohingya Muslims, very much needs to do. Perhaps we could start by whose situation I, like other hon. Members, want to simply saying that if a country denies people within its highlight. Many constituents have come to me to raise borders citizenship, that does not mean that it is entitled concerns about what is happening in Burma and about to deny them law, basic services and human rights. The the treatment of the Rohingya community, not to mention right to life, the right to family life and the right to the many other minorities that form 40% of the Burmese practise one’s religion are not dependent on citizenship, population. 79WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 80WH Rights) Rights) Since inter-communal violence erupted a year ago provide doctors. The only other place where people can almost this month, Rohingya Muslims in Rakhine state get emergency care is the local Rakhine hospital, where have been forced into segregated settlements and camps, there is a unit of 12 to 14 segregated beds for the whole and many have been cut off from life-saving aid. The population of 140,000 people. What I saw was shocking. humanitarian situation in Rakhine state is dire. Tens of A man was waiting for an operation. I did not see any thousands of people are still living in makeshift camps, sign of anaesthetics, and the hygiene was appalling, yet where they lack food, water, sanitation, adequate shelter doctors could go in there if they were allowed access by and access to health care. the state and national Governments. The violence has caused not only massive internal We need the British Government, and particularly displacement, but loss of life, livelihoods and property. the Foreign Office, to apply pressure on the state government Many have seen their homes and villages burned to the and national Government to provide unfettered ground. I witnessed places where there was row after humanitarian access. There is no shortage of good will row of cut-down trees and nothing else. Such places from international NGOs and foreign Governments or used to be people’s homes, where Rohingya lived side by of willingness from UN agencies to provide help. The side with Rakhine neighbours. Muslim and Buddhist World Health Organisation needs to step up and apply communities that had previously been able to live together, pressure for access, so that emergency care can be albeit not necessarily in full harmony, remain deeply brought to people. I heard stories of many people— divided, and the violence is spreading around the country. particularly women—dying unnecessarily because of It is directed particularly against the 9% of Burma’s the lack of health care. That experience—observing population that is Muslim. As the right hon. Member hospitals turning people away in life-and-death situations for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) said, Christian minorities because of their ethnicity and the fact that they are not are also likely to be affected. recognised—echoed, to me, apartheid. I do not use that During my visit, I met displaced Rohingya who were term lightly. Being forced into camps and not allowed forced to flee to remote areas of the countryside completely out is the equivalent of being a prisoner in one’s own unsuitable for displacement camps. I also saw informal country. camps, which were not registered, or allowed to be Will the Minister reassure the House that he is working registered, by the UN, and which therefore had no with his colleagues in the Department for International access to humanitarian assistance. They had to rely on Development to help to improve the conditions I have the good will of local people and Muslim charities, talked about? Given that there are flood-prone areas, whose access to the camps is also extremely limited. the need for shelter should be dealt with urgently. It is Those camps need to be registered, but the UK Government likely that the existing crisis will turn into a catastrophe and other Governments have been unable to get state if we do not act immediately. authorities and the national Government to agree to The Burmese Government recently evacuated 120,000 register them. By any standards, these camps should be people in Rakhine state, ahead of cyclone Mahasen. a high priority for registration and should be recognised However, the lack of safe evacuation sites remains a key as being desperately in need of help. They are adjacent concern during the monsoon season. The Foreign Office to the registered camps. has significant influence over the Burmese authorities, One camp I visited, in Pauk Taw township, was so in making representations, what pressure is it using, accessible only by means of a two-hour boat journey. with DFID colleagues, for people to have the security to Non-governmental organisations had to bring drinking return voluntarily and safely to the places they came water in on boats, and primary health care was provided from, or places nearby? At the moment there is little just one morning a week. The shores adjacent to the hope that they will be able to return. Many people said camp were covered in faeces, and dead rats floated in to me that they had pretty good relationships with their the water just metres from children who were bathing to neighbours. It was not those neighbours who caused the keep cool in the scorching heat. Their home is a camp violence, but Buddhist extremists, who came and stirred on a beach; I was there for only two hours, and that was up tension and conflict. Now, people are too frightened long enough for me and the delegation I went with. I to go back, as are the Rakhine refugees who were recommend that the Minister and his ministerial colleagues caught in the violence. These are ordinary civilians, who from the Department for International Development were getting on with their lives. Both sides need security visit that camp. It is only when we see the desperate so that they can return. However, there is concern that situation those children and families face that we can the state government’s agenda is not to allow that, but truly understand the plight of Burma’s internally displaced to keep people in the camps. That is not sustainable. people. The movement of the Muslim community in Rakhine Most of the shelters I saw were made of tarpaulins state has been heavily restricted, as I have said. The and rice bags, which cannot withstand even moderate story is one of segregation and desperation—a rains. One Rohingya man told me that displaced people— humanitarian catastrophe that cannot be dissociated particularly those living near the coast—were growing from the fact that the Rohingya population do not have increasingly frightened of the rains. With the start of the right to Burmese citizenship, or, therefore, any further the rainy season there are serious concerns that flooding consequential rights, including access to humanitarian will exacerbate the humanitarian situation and increase assistance, freedom of movement, or connecting with the risk of waterborne diseases. their Rakhine neighbours to trade with them. I visited a hospital that was set up with state assistance. One of the things that I experienced was trying to get A couple of charities were allowed to provide some to one of the few Rohingya villages that are left in the additional funding, but the only people able to help part of Rakhine I visited. Half way through the journey there were untrained nurses. Doctors were not allowed the Rakhine driver had to stop. He was too frightened in, even though international NGOs had offered to to go beyond the point where he saw the military. He 81WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 82WH Rights) Rights) [Rushanara Ali] that people wanted to talk about. However, every group of Rohingya men and women, including children, to would not go further, and we had to find a Rohingya whom I spoke told me that their priority was recognition driver to take us further. On the way back we had to do of their Rohingya identity and the restoration of their the same thing. Likewise, we had an interpreter who Burmese citizenship rights, which were taken away from was supposed to go to Pauk Taw with us. However, we them in the 1980s. Many Rohingyas were keen to insist were refused passage in the boat, because we were going that ethnic Rohingya Muslims had been in Burma for to visit Rohingya Muslims in the camp, which was two centuries, yet the national and state Governments deny hours away by boat, so we came close to not having them their Burmese citizenship and their ethnic Rohingya access. The Rohingya interpreter was not allowed to go identity, instead claiming that they are “Kala,” a racist in with us to interpret, and we had to find another one. derogatory term, or Bengali migrants from Bangladesh. Rakhine interpreters were not prepared to go with us. One woman lost her entire family—I met a group of One person agreed in the end, subject to anonymity. women, many of whom had similar stories—and she That gives an idea of the scale of the problem, and it is told me, “If, after having lost everything, including my why we need to act fast. We need to ensure that what whole family, because we are Rohingya Muslims, the little good will remains between people—it is being Government still don’t recognise me as Rohingya in my annihilated by the understandable fear in the different own country, then I might as well be dead.” communities—does not become overwhelmed, with little room left for reconciliation and reintegration with security. During my visit, the authorities were conducting a “verification exercise” in displacement camps, trying to I mentioned that the Muslim community’s movement force Rohingyas to sign forms admitting that they were is restricted. The critical point is that its members Bengalis. Citizenship is key to the rights of freedom of cannot do anything: they cannot do business, or trade, movement, work, marriage and much more. The displaced and supplies to those that still trade are blocked. They Rohingyas are effectively living the lives of prisoners in are therefore increasingly vulnerable, and the only route the camps with no right to get out. by which they can get food, shelter and help is through The authorities in Rakhine state recently issued a international agencies. The displaced Rohingya and directive placing a two-child limit on Rohingya couples Kaman told me they would never be allowed to return in predominantly Muslim townships in the region, which home because, in their words, the local authorities were is a chilling development and a gross violation of their trying to create Muslim-free zones. As the recent Human human rights. Will the Minister tell us what his Department Rights Watch report highlighted, there is plenty of is doing to prevent the Burmese Government from evidence to suggest that what happened was well applying such discriminatory practices? orchestrated and backed by the state government. At best the national Government turned a blind eye, and at An urgent resolution is needed to the question of worst they were complicit. Rohingya human rights and citizenship. The future of Burma and its reform process can be assured only if the A recurring theme that came up in my discussions question of citizenship for the Rohingya minority is with internally displaced people was the threat to their properly addressed. The UK Government need to act security and safety, which often prevented them from urgently to end the segregation and human rights violations returning to their place of origin, even if they were in the region. I hope the Minister will work with his allowed to. Will the UK Government use their position counterparts to apply pressure, and I echo the points and influence to exert pressure on the Burmese national raised by my hon. Friend about the need for international Government and state government in Rakhine, to ensure inquiries into what happened and into how we can that security forces on the ground provide adequate move towards reconciliation and the protection of all protection to all ethnic communities, and particularly minorities, including the Rohingya minority, in Burma. the Rohingya community? There are concerns—and this has been documented—that police who were present I hope the Minister takes on board my hon. Friend’s during the violence tended to stand by. There seems to point about the need for the Foreign Secretary to include be much more confidence in the security forces, and Burma in his anti-sexual violence initiatives. Will the that must be encouraging. However, it would be helpful Minister explain, given that the EU has lifted sanctions, to know what the Minister thinks the UK Government what leverage he thinks the UK Government and the can do to encourage the authorities both to help people EU still have to exert influence on the Burmese authorities to return home, and to resettle them with the protection to get the results that we need on this important issue? they need to avoid further similar events: I am thinking Why does the US have a different position? What does of what happened in the key events of June and October he make of that? How can we work with our US allies last year, and March this year, in Meiktila. on this matter? This is a critical issue for Burma’s transition to democracy. At the heart of the humanitarian crisis, as hon. We all welcome the changes and improvements that Members have already said, lies the question of citizenship. have been made overall, but if people’s human rights The Rohingya have been described by the UN, as my are not secured—some 40% of the Burmese population hon. Friend has said, as the come from minority backgrounds—Burma’s transition “most persecuted minority in the world”. to democracy could be at risk. I hope the UK Government will not put trade alone at the top of their agenda. When I visited camps, where malnutrition rates are Trade is important, but human rights are integral dangerously near emergency levels and where people to our discussions on trade and investment. The are forced to live in segregated areas cut off from their Minister should not overlook this vital and important livelihoods and are struggling to survive, I did not issue, which is critical to Burma’s advancement over the expect citizenship and identity to top the list of issues coming decades. 83WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 84WH Rights) Rights) Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): There are three other and access to markets and humanitarian aid. All those speakers on my list, and I doubt whether I will be able things are disconcerting. On 13 June 2012, a Government to call all of them. I will be calling the Front Benchers truck dumped 18 naked and half-clothed bodies near a at 10.40 am at the very latest. If speakers are quick with Rohingya displaced persons camp outside Sittwe, the their contributions, we may get a contribution from all Rakhine state capital. That is another example of what three Members. is going on. I will conclude with a couple of points, because I 10.24 am want to give the other two hon. Members a chance to speak. The main Opposition party in Burma has been Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I will be brief, unfortunately quiet. Why are the Opposition quiet in because I want to give the other two hon. Members an their own country whenever we are highlighting the opportunity to be involved. issue here? I am not being disrespectful to the Opposition The UN has a key role to play. I congratulate the hon. leader, because I respect her greatly, but I think that has Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) on to be said. I ask for direction from the Minister on the bringing this matter to the Chamber. There have been effective delivery of humanitarian aid, on disease and some impassioned pleas on behalf of the Rohingya deadly water-borne diseases and on the right of the people, which is good because the House has an important displaced to return to their original townships—there is democratic role to play in promoting the matter. The also the question of their citizenship. We must address situation in Rakhine and Kachin states is one that must all those issues, and I ask the Minister to take them on be highlighted internationally in the House today, as it in his response. has been in the past. Burma should accept an independent international Some 125,000 Rohingya and other Muslims have commission to investigate crimes against humanity in been forcefully displaced. There is an ongoing humanitarian Arakan state, to locate victims and to provide redress. crisis and there are questions about access to aid; the Burma’s donors need to wake up and realise the seriousness hon. Lady has spoken about the amount of aid that of the Rohingyas’ plight, and they must demand that goes towards that humanitarian crisis. Burmese officials, the Burmese Government urgently stop abuses, promote community leaders and some Buddhist monks organised the safe return of displaced Muslims and Christians and encouraged ethnic Arakanese, backed by state security and ensure accountability to end the deadly cycle of forces, to conduct co-ordinated attacks on Muslim violence in Arakan state. neighbourhoods and villages in October 2012, and they forcibly relocated the population. Christians have also I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate, been attacked, abused and displaced. and I give an opportunity for the other two hon. Members I believe the Burmese Government have engaged in a to speak. campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Rohingya that continues today through the denial of aid and the use of Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): There are 10 minutes restrictions. There have been violent mass arrests, aid to left. displaced Muslims has been blocked and there have been months of meetings and public statements promoting ethnic cleansing, all of which builds up to a co-ordinated 10.29 am plan. A number of mass graves have been found. The news last night carried stories of displaced people and Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): My remarks of hundreds—indeed thousands—of people murdered will be brief, because I have previously spoken at length and buried. on these matters in both Westminster Hall and the Human Rights Watch has outlined the issue, too, and Commons Chamber. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend given many examples of those who have witnessed or the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) suffered abuses. There are examples of state forces for her excellent speech and the kind remarks she directed participating in some of the events. The local police towards me. I will cut down my comments so that my have stood by in many cases. One soldier told a Muslim hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie man who was pleading for his protection, “The only Vaz) may take part in the debate. thing you can do now is pray for your life.” There is I should say at the outset that it is right to praise the clearly no compassion or help from the security forces, progress that Burma has made, as hon. Members have which is disconcerting. done. Freedom of expression and media freedom have On 23 October 2012, 70 Rohingya were killed in a increased, political prisoners have been released and day-long massacre in a village, and the security forces moves have been made to a form of democratic election, stood by and let it happen. Imagine the situation of even though some seats are reserved for the military. those who had not yet been killed but who were listening Aung San Suu Kyi has been released. to the screams, shouts and murders. Twenty-eight children, However, I will focus, as have other hon. Members, 13 of whom were under five, were hacked to death. on the treatment of the Rohingya in Rakhine state. The Children of that age—look at what happened to them. last time we debated the subject in this Chamber, all The security forces told them, “We will look after Members referred to the plight of the Rohingya. The you and protect you,” but they did not look after or deaths number in the hundreds—or the thousands, protect them. according to some reports—and many Rohingya have There are many other examples out there. Local been displaced to camps that have been described as authorities, politicians and monks have also made public some of the most dire in the world. My hon. Friend the statements and used force to deny Muslims their rights Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) to freedom of movement, opportunities to earn a living was particularly eloquent and moving in describing 85WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 86WH Rights) Rights) [Jonathan Ashworth] if we go down that route while doing nothing to insist on human rights, it will be a tragedy for the Rohingya what she saw there on her recent trip. Rohingya mosques, people, who are some of the most oppressed in the madrassahs and homes have been burned down, and world. shops looted. Although the violence has not been on the scale that 10.34 am we saw last October, small-scale violence remains. The perpetrators have been allowed to continue and have Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to not been brought to law. Anti-Muslim sentiment appears serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I pay tribute to be increasing across Burma. In recent weeks, in the to all hon. Members, who have made thoughtful speeches. Mandalay area, clashes and deaths have been stoked by I will move on quickly to my speech in the remaining extremist monks from the 969 movement, and the security time. services seem to stand by and do nothing. There are Let us remember that Aung San Suu Kyi and the parallels with what happened in Rakhine state last year. National League for Democracy won the election in 1990 with 60% of the vote and 80% of parliamentary We know that the Burmese Government set up an seats. Although those results were not recognised, we inquiry, but it was their own internal inquiry. Every must acknowledge that Burma is moving forward and speaker in this debate has said that that is not satisfactory taking steps as part of the reconciliation process. and that we should have an international inquiry at UN level. I hope that the Minister will endorse that. As My contribution will focus on three main issues: the many Members have said, we also need complete, unfettered Kachin state, land grab and humanitarian issues. I access to the camps, which are a dire situation, for all apologise for the speed. Kachin is predominantly a humanitarian and human rights agencies. I hope that he Christian state. I was pleased that Mr Speaker granted will support that also. my urgent question in January. On the day of that debate, a child of 15 and a pastor were killed. I got a I would like to press the Minister on the stories that helpful response from the Under-Secretary of State for have emerged in the past few days about the two-child Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member policy in Rakhine state. A couple of days ago, the for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), saying that Burmese Minister for Immigration and Population endorsed they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. What the policy, saying that it would benefit “Bengali women”. we see as crimes go unrecognised in that state. The Note the phrase: he still refuses to recognise the Rohingya police stand by. Some 100,000 people have been displaced people. in Kachin. Although a ceasefire has been announced, it Human Rights Watch says that the law violates appeared to be on the very day that General Thein was international human rights protections and endangers in America. Christian Solidarity Worldwide reports that women’s physical and mental health. Aung San Suu Kyi abuses are still taking place, even after the ceasefire. calls the policy discrimination and not in line with The second issue is land grab. People who have been human rights, and health workers have reported an living on the land and using it to feed themselves have increase in illegal abortions and in women giving their been displaced. The Asian Legal Resource Centre, in a children to other women in order to avoid fines or submission to the United Nations Human Rights Council arrest. That is an appalling abuse of human rights, and in June, warned that Burma is in danger of a land-grabbing it is another example of the unacceptable way in which epidemic. Forests have been cleared, dams and pipelines the Rohingya people of Burma are treated. are being built and the people are just being ignored. At the root of the issue is the citizenship question, The Burmese Parliament has a land investigation committee, which has been referred to many times. I remind the but it has seen only about 500 complaints, and many Minister that even though the current Burmese Government ethnic minorities do not even know that it exists. consider the Rohingya to be illegal Bengali refugees, the Thirdly, on the humanitarian aspects, all Members first President of Burma said many years ago that the have rightly mentioned the reports from Human Rights “Muslims of Arakan”— Watch, Christian Solidarity Worldwide and even the Kachin Women’s Association. There is a global movement that is, Rakhine— against human trafficking. Women are being trafficked “certainly belong to one of the indigenous races of Burma…if into China and back again. They cannot do anything they do not belong to the indigenous races, we also cannot be with their lives once they have been humiliated in that taken as indigenous races”. way. Attacks are consistently systematic. The reports I am sure that everyone would agree that the citizenship are clear, and they all say the same things: people are law must be sorted out. It is absolutely unacceptable being threatened. Local aid groups say that workers are that Rohingya children born in Rakhine are being denied also being threatened by local administrations. A child the citizenship that they deserve. It is a moral disgrace. died after drinking from a stream poisoned by pesticides. Does the Minister agree that it contravenes various UN Daw Suu Kyi has gone the extra mile to ensure that protocols on the treatment of children? her country moves on. Although EU sanctions were We are a significant donor to Burma, and the UK has lifted, with some criticism in some quarters, I ask the supported lifting sanctions. Given that we have done so, Minister to raise a number of issues in exchange. First, what other diplomatic tools does the Minister have at will he raise the human rights issues set out in the his disposal to put pressure on Burma to deal with reports and ensure that he speaks to the Burmese human rights abuses? We are rightly and understandably Government or his counterpart and that the UN Office positioning ourselves to take full advantage of the of the High Commissioner for Human Rights finds a economic opportunities of that mineral-rich country. I place in Burma, as agreed by the Burmese Government? understand that, and I support international trade, but Will he ensure, more importantly, that aid given to 87WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 88WH Rights) Rights) Burma goes to the correct people in a transparent way, The conflict also raises fundamental human rights so that women who have been raped get the support concerns, including the seemingly arbitrary arrest of that they need? hundreds during the Government-imposed state of In the long term, a constitutional solution is needed, emergency. The special rapporteur on the human rights as is a second Panglong conference. We must use our situation in Burma noted resources and expertise to ensure that the NLD’s aim of “harsh and disproportionate restrictions on the freedom of movement equality of nationalities is supported. Religion must of Muslim populations in the IDP camps” not be used to divide people; people must be allowed to and received “credible allegations” of live and choose their own religion, whatever it happens “widespread and systematic human rights violations by state to be. We have a long history with Burma, and we officials targeted against the Rohingya and wider Muslim should be able to walk hand in hand as Burma finds a populations”. new constitutional settlement that respects human rights That includes and the rule of law. As one worker said, we need to move away from the ceasefire process to a peace process. “extrajudicial killings, rape and sexual violence, arbitrary detention We can help Burma step out from behind the faded and torture and ill-treatment in detention, deaths in detention, and denial of due process and fair trial rights”. politics of the past. That can be achieved only through dialogue, respect for each group and the rule of law My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and and, most importantly, reconciliation. Bow also mentioned the chilling report from Human Rights Watch “All You Can Do is Pray”, which expresses considerable concern about possible state collusion in 10.38 am what is argued to “amount to crimes against humanity carried out as part of a Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to campaign of ethnic cleansing.” serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East I understand and welcome the fact that our ambassador (Yasmin Qureshi) both on securing this debate and has raised that report with the Burmese Government. making an excellent speech in support of it. It is a Will the Minister tell us the outcome of those talks, and matter of great concern to her constituents, to Members whether the claims will be discussed at the highest level across the House and in the wider community. between the UK and Burma? The senior Minister of State at the Foreign Office commented that We should start by welcoming the major changes “further independent investigative work would be required”.—[Official made in Burma over recent years. The country had been Report, House of Lords, 5 June 2013; Vol. 745, c. 1248.] so long isolated from the rest of the world, had suffered severe repression for many years and was of concern to Will the Minister here today elaborate on what investigations the world community. That is why this Parliament was the Government would like to see and on what steps the so pleased to welcome Aung San Suu Kyi to Westminster UK is taking to secure an inquiry and to ensure that the Hall and to hear her message of hope, and why the Burmese Government recognise the gravity of the report? world is renewing and expanding business and other President Thein Sein initiated an inquiry into the relationships with Burma. We welcome the corresponding inter-communal violence last year, and the Rakhine economic growth that is taking place. investigation commission finally reported at the end of It is also right to acknowledge the significant persuasive April. Unfortunately, it seemed to provide further evidence role of President Thein Sein in bringing about change, of the rejection of the Rohingya community, as the and the patient diplomatic role played by Burma’s fellow report referred to them as “Bengali” throughout. That members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, reinforces the point made by my hon. Friend the Member which worked steadily to persuade the previous regime, for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and my hon. often facing criticism for what seemed to be their cautious Friend the Member for Bolton South East. There were approach. All that offers hope for the future, for Burma a number of comments on the birth rate among the and for its people. community and, as mentioned in the debate, the two-child policy imposed on the Rohingya was reaffirmed last As we have seen elsewhere in the world, however, month, a move I am pleased to see was condemned by such rapid change can often release old tensions and Aung San Suu Kyi as discrimination that conflicts that have been repressed under the old regime. That is why we must acknowledge the progress that “is not in line with human rights”. Burma has made towards peace and democracy. The What discussions have there been with the Burmese conflicts in Rakhine and Kachin states demonstrate all authorities and in the European Union or the UN too powerfully why there can be no complacency, whether about the Rakhine investigation commission report? from President Thein Sein or us and the international In particular, the report notably failed to support a community. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall review of the 1982 citizenship law, which denies the South (Valerie Vaz) alluded to that. Rohingya citizenship and renders them stateless. What The Rakhine conflict started a year ago, following recent representations has the Minister made in support the rape and murder of a young Buddhist woman and of a review of the law and of positive action to address the killing of 10 Muslim men. June and October in the prejudice and discrimination suffered by the Rohingya particular saw shocking inter-communal violence, with community? Does he agree that continued segregation, more than 200 deaths and by now an estimated 140,000 as endorsed by the commission, should not be seen as a internally displaced persons, predominantly Rohingya. permanent solution? There was also a strong emphasis Conditions in the camps are shocking, as ably reported in the report on a greater presence for the security by my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and forces. Given that we have already discussed grave concerns Bow (Rushanara Ali). about their past role, is the Minister satisfied that they 89WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 90WH Rights) Rights) [Mr John Spellar] “Over the summer, the British embassy in Rangoon will be scoping options to expand the initiative to Burma.”—[Official can be deployed as a force for good and to calm the Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 1120W.] tensions, and that they will be held accountable for their Can the Minister assure us today that the urgent need to actions? end the sexual violence and to hold those responsible to account has already been discussed with the Burmese Non-governmental organisations have reported worrying Government? Can he elaborate on how and when the difficulties in supplying vital humanitarian support to preventing sexual violence initiative could be expanded the thousands who have lost their homes, and that was to Burma, as also discussed by the right hon. Member acknowledged by the investigation commission, which for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell)? Furthermore, will concluded that 15% of food needs are unmet and that the issue be raised at the G8 next week? “some 90% of needs are unmet in the construction and provision In April, the EU Foreign Affairs Council took the of shelter”. decision to lift sanctions, with the exception of the arms Can the Minister provide an indication of how reliable embargo. Some have argued that that was premature, those figures are and tell us what steps the Foreign and and this morning’s debate has certainly highlighted that Commonwealth Office and the Department for far too many people in Burma are still waiting for International Development are taking to ensure unhindered sustainable peace and respect for human rights. That is access for humanitarian support, an issue stressed by not to say that those things cannot be achieved, but my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South? does the Minister agree that the EU’s decision to lift Can the Minister also update us on the current safety sanctions must place an even greater obligation on of internally displaced persons and on efforts to Burma to comply with international law? Will he assure protect them from the monsoon season? What recent us that the UK, bilaterally and through the EU, will use representations have been made to the authorities in the lifting of sanctions to press for more concerted Thailand and Bangladesh regarding the treatment of action on human rights? What discussions have the Rohingya asylum seekers? Is the Minister aware of any Government had with the authorities in Burma since work by the Burmese authorities to stem the violence the sanctions were lifted, and what expectations have and to promote inter-religious dialogue? been set out? Answers to those questions will enable Burma to move on and start to build the democratic, The focus of today’s debate has been primarily but peaceful and prosperous society that its long-suffering not only on Rakhine, and my hon. Friend the Member people richly deserve. for Bolton South East is absolutely right to say that the human rights situation in Kachin state also requires international attention. That conflict intensified in 10.48 am November last year, after the 17 years of ceasefire. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign There are now estimated to be 90,000 internally displaced and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Iam persons, to whom humanitarian support was reportedly pleased to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Hood, restricted. There is also evidence that, unfortunately, and I am delighted to be under your guidance. those fleeing Kachin and seeking asylum in China have I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton South been turned back, adding to the humanitarian crisis. As East (Yasmin Qureshi) on securing this important debate, has been mentioned, the UK has contributed £3.5 million and on the articulate and passionate way in which she in humanitarian aid to people affected by the Kachin put her case. She is absolutely right to highlight the conflict. Is the Minister confident that assistance is concerns about human rights, sexual violence, displaced reaching those who need it, and can he update us on the people and other ethnic violence, as well as the humanitarian humanitarian situation? concerns that she articulated. Many other hon. Members Amnesty International has received claims of made a significant number of points, which, unfortunately, extrajudicial executions, torture, arbitrary detention, I will not have time to address in their totality this forced labour and sexual violence, and concerns about morning, although I will try to deal with the particular the involvement of elements of the Burmese army. points made in the debate. If I do not have time to What investigations have the Government made into respond to all of them, I or the Minister of State, the actions of the armed forces in Kachin. What Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend representations has the Minister made in support of the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), will of course justice for the Kachin civilians? be happy to do so in writing after the debate. We support the Government in welcoming the agreement I must first reiterate a point that the right hon. in the past couple of weeks between the Burmese Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) and other hon. Members Government and the Kachin Independence Organisation have made. There has been progress in Burma in the last to begin dialogue and to work towards a ceasefire. Does two years. Hundreds of political prisoners have been the Minister consider that to be a likely scenario? What released, most notably Aung San Suu Kyi, who now sits assistance can the international community and regional in the Burmese Parliament building alliances and working bodies provide to ensure that the talks prove successful. to strengthen the process of reform. There has been a general relaxation of the crippling censorship and onerous As mentioned by a number of colleagues, the Foreign infringements of freedom of expression that once Secretary has been rightly commended for his work on characterised Burma. Civil society organisations, non- tackling sexual violence in conflict. Understandably, governmental organisations, unions and individuals there have been calls for Burma to be included in are freer to organise and to act. The international the initiative. The Minister of State, Foreign and community—Governments, NGOs and others—deserve Commonwealth Office, the right hon. Member for East praise for their significant pressure on successive Burmese Devon (Mr Swire), stated: Governments, which has led to the improvements of the 91WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 92WH Rights) Rights) past two years. However, that does not mean that there livelihoods, strengthening the work of Parliament and are not significant issues that need to be addressed, as civil society, and, importantly, assisting people affected we have heard this morning, and that progress is not by conflict with a focus on ethnic reconciliation. still a long and difficult road ahead. Britain also has a package of emergency measures. It is right to acknowledge the strides that have been Nearly 80,000 people will be able to access safe made in Burma since President Thein Sein took office, drinking water and improved sanitation facilities. Acutely and it is also right to continue to express our concerns malnourished children will receive treatment in the and to take action. Human rights and ethnic reconciliation rural camps to which some hon. Members referred, and remain at the heart of UK policy and our discussions hygiene kits will be available for 40,000 people. There is with the Burmese Government. I assure hon. Members significant co-ordination and co-operation between the that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the FCO and DFID to ensure that we maximise the impact Department for International Development are significantly on the ground of UK taxpayers’ money. engaged at senior ministerial level with Burma. The My right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for referred to the relationship between the UK and Burmese East Devon, was the first EU Minister to visit Rakhine militaries. At the request of Aung San Suu Kyi during last year. He visited five camps for people displaced by her meeting with the Prime Minister last year, we have the violence and heard for himself the terrible stories an accredited defence attaché in Burma. She specifically that the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow recommended that appointment as a key channel for (Rushanara Ali) outlined in her articulate contribution. engagement with the Burmese military. As my right He also heard the stories of loss and abuse. He raised at hon. Friend said, the Chief of the Defence Staff visited all levels in the Burmese Government the need for a Burma from 2 to 4 June as the next stage of our co-ordinated humanitarian response, accountability and engagement. I assure my right hon. Friend and other security. That has been followed up by the Foreign hon. Members that the focus of that engagement will Secretary and other Ministers in the Foreign and be on adherence to the core principles of democratic Commonwealth Office and the Department for accountability and human rights. There must be International Development. accountability for those who took part and organised I want to take the opportunity to address head-on the last year’s violence. The process of justice must be in point made by hon. Members about European Union accordance with the rule of law and should adhere to sanctions. As the right hon. Member for Warley rightly international standards. Accountability is important in said, the arms embargo has not been lifted. Its purpose, its own right and underpins the process of reconciliation which was agreed in the EU, was to deepen engagement between the Rohingya and Rakhine communities. and to encourage reformists. It was also agreed and The hon. Member for Bolton South East made an suggested by Aung San Suu Kyi, although she has said essential point related to the recent report from Human that it Rights Watch—the UN special rapporteur raised similar “is time we let these sanctions go...we can’t go on relying on concerns in his report in February. I reiterate the point sanctions forever to aid the democracy movement.” that she rightly articulated: the report contains disturbing and specific allegations, backed up by evidence. We will I assure hon. Members that human rights will be at the follow up those allegations directly with the Burmese centre of UK and EU policy on Burma. EU Foreign Government. If serious crimes have been committed, Ministers have agreed a comprehensive framework that those who perpetrated them must be held to account for sets out how we will work with the Burmese Government their specific actions. That should be done through a and apply pressure on them to address the many challenges clear and transparent investigative and prosecution process that Burma still faces. that meets international standards. Further investigative My right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove work must fully establish the facts that will be required (Andrew Stunell) made a key point about the importance for an informed assessment of whether ethnic cleansing of humanitarian aid and the alleviation of suffering in and crimes against humanity have been committed. The parts of Burma. It is not just about those who are Government are looking carefully and seriously at the suffering from being internally displaced, although that contents of those reports. is of course a pressing concern. The UN is building Some hon. Members referred to the two-child policy. temporary shelters for 24,000 people, but 40,000 more I want to put on record the fact that a presidential remain vulnerable to flooding, a point that hon. Members spokesman in Burma said on 2 June that the central rightly made. We must continue to do more. Significant Government did not announce the Rohingya two-child work has been done and continues to be done, but I policy and that it would be looked into. I am happy to want to ensure that hon. Members understand that we keep the House informed as the matter develops. do not pass UK taxpayers’ money through Burmese Finally, I want to address a point that several hon. Government mechanisms; we do so through the NGO Members made about the initiative on preventing sexual community, most if not all of which does sterling and violence in conflict. There is support for the initiative excellent work on the ground. throughout the House, and significant progress has We are a leading donor to Burma and in the past few been made in engaging the international community, years no country has given more humanitarian aid to including the G8 Foreign Ministers’ meeting in London the Burmese people than the UK. Our commitment in April. Sadly, Burma is not the only place that suffers to aid for Burma is £187 million over four years until from terrible and unacceptable levels of sexual violence. 2015. If hon. Members are interested, I will be happy Somalia, Mali, eastern Democratic Republic of the to provide details of the geographical breakdown of Congo and Syria are but a few examples. As the right where that money is being spent. It is focused on health hon. Member for Warley pointed out, during the summer care, responsible investment, good governance, improving the British embassy in Rangoon will scope options for 93WH Rakhine and Kachin State (Human 12 JUNE 2013 94WH Rights) [Mark Simmonds] Media Sexism increasing UK engagement and embedding the initiative 11 am to tackle sexual violence in Burma. Wherever it occurs, whether in conflict or elsewhere, sexual violence is Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a completely unacceptable, and the impunity that has pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. existed for too long must be stopped. Few things are more important than ensuring that every The hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) member of our community feels safe in their own home, rightly raised the issues in Kachin state. Although significant workplace, community and school. Sadly, for far too challenges remain, there has been progress recently, many women and girls in the UK, that is simply not the which we should encourage. With its expertise in Northern case, and there is strong evidence that media sexism is Ireland, the UK is playing a positive role. playing a significant contributory role. In conclusion, the UK will remain a constructive, I want to start by outlining some consequences of the supportive and critical partner for Burma, committed fact that objectifying women has become so normalised to supporting reform efforts to ensure that the Burmese in our society, before exploring the extent and nature of people, wherever they live in Burma, can live in peace media sexism, as well as what action is required. The and harmony, for the betterment of themselves and shocking facts are that here in Britain 60,000 women their families. are raped every year. Two women a week are killed by a partner or ex-partner. Sexual harassment in our schools, communities and workplaces is routine. In Brighton and Hove, which is home to my constituency, an estimated 11,000 women experience physical and emotional violence every year, and last year more than 2,700 women experienced sexual assault. The city’s new strategy for prevention offers valuable insights into the way that violence is normalised—

Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. Can I tell the hon. Member that there are standards of dress that Members must comply with, both in the House and in Westminster Hall? I ask her to respect that and to put her jacket back on, which she was wearing when she came in, please.

Caroline Lucas: I will of course comply with your ruling, Mr Hood, but it strikes me as a certain irony that in this place people can get copies of The Sun. Perhaps I can even show you what is in The Sun. In eight places in this House—

Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I am not commenting on what the Member may wish to say in the debate; I am only addressing the appropriate means of dress. If she does as I asked, she can carry on with her speech.

Caroline Lucas: Thank you, Mr Hood. I was simply going to say that it strikes me as an irony that this T-shirt is regarded as an inappropriate thing to be wearing in this House, whereas, apparently, it is appropriate for this kind of newspaper to be available to buy in eight different outlets on the Palace of Westminster estate. That is why I have written to the Palace asking for them to be withdrawn, and for them not to be on sale until page 3 is removed. I was describing a violence against women strategy in Brighton and Hove and was about to quote from it. The city’s new strategy for prevention offers real insights into the way that violence is normalised, saying that “violence against women and girls is a continuum: it is the basic common characteristic that underlies many different events in women and girls’ lives, involving many forms of intimate intrusion, coercion, abuse and assault, that pass into one another and cannot always be readily distinguished, but that as a continuum are used to control women and girls. Many women and girls learn to discount and minimise forms of violence and abuse both as a way of coping but also because much of it is normalised.” This is not just about extreme cases. It is an epidemic, with the symptoms identifiable at an early age. A YouGov 95WH Media Sexism12 JUNE 2013 Media Sexism 96WH poll for the End Violence Against Women coalition and Hove to launch the Spot the Sexism campaign, found that more than 70% of 16 to 18-year-old boys which is a month-long campaign dedicated to sharing and girls said that they routinely heard sexual name-calling experiences of how women are portrayed in the media. towards girls at school, and even more disturbingly that I would like to give a sense of just a few contributions one in three girls said that they experienced “groping” that I have received so far. More are coming in, and I or other unwanted sexual touching at school. A National hope that the Minister will agree to a meeting later in Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children study the year, as some of my constituents would very much reveals that almost half of teenage girls believe that it is like the opportunity to talk about their experiences. acceptable for a boyfriend to be aggressive towards a female partner, while one in two boys, and one in three Let me start with a Mail Online story about Britney girls, believe that there are some circumstances in which Spears that appeared on 8 March—ironically, on it is okay to hit a woman or force her to have sex. international women’s day. It opens like this: “Like many women Britney, who has a net worth of nearly The point I want to make this morning is that none of $200 million dollars, appears to struggle to find the right bra…On that is happening in a vacuum. We have to recognise the this occasion Britney ‘booby trap’ appears to be caused by a lack impact of wider culture, and today I want to focus on of support—and a sure sign that she needs to use some of her just one aspect of that: the objectification of women in earnings to splash out on some correctly sized lingerie.” the media. Women have been degraded, belittled and The website used eight photos of the singer to make its served up as sex objects in some of our daily newspapers point. for many years, despite the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women On the same day, the website also carried this headline repeatedly identifying the links between the portrayal of about a Girls Aloud singer: “Being on tour certainly women as sexual objects and attitudes that underpin suits you! Kimberley Walsh shows off her tiny hourglass violence and discrimination against women and girls. figure in a clinging white dress”. The story was illustrated with three virtually identical photos of her in the said The Government-commissioned “Sexualisation of Young dress. The spurious news element in both pieces was People” review found that evidence suggests a clear link presumably that two women had bothered to get dressed between consumption of sexualised images, a tendency before leaving the house, but the subtext is that they are to view women as objects, and the acceptance of aggressive worth nothing more than the content of their wardrobes attitudes and behaviour as the norm. The American or the shape of their bodies. Psychological Association reports that viewing media that portray women as sex objects leads people to The frequency with which women’s looks are used to become significantly more accepting of gender stereotyping, undermine them was underscored by a Telegraph piece sexual harassment, interpersonal violence and rape myths. that irritated another of my constituents. It was about the Conservative candidate for the Eastleigh by-election, The scale of the sexism that pervades our media was in which far more was said about her appearance than highlighted last year by women’s groups, including the her policies—specifically, the fact that the journalist End Violence Against Women coalition and OBJECT, decided that she must have been airbrushed in the which gave evidence to the Leveson inquiry and later billboard posters because the real-life version looked published a report called “Just the Women”. It examined tired and harassed, rather than sleek and happy. Another how domestic homicide cases are reported as “tragic” constituent cites every single story in the so-called sidebar one-off incidents, rather than as part of a well understood of shame in the Mail. The irony, of course, is that that is pattern of behaviour; how rape cases in some papers are part of the content aimed directly at women. routinely placed next to pictures of half-naked women; how cases of forced marriage or “honour”-based violence The Daily Mail comes in for more criticism than are explained in terms of culture or religion, or almost most, including for the way that it is still struggling anything except violence against women and girls; how with, as one constituent puts it, news reporting upholds myths about sexual and domestic “the right—or is it the wrong—age to have a baby.” violence, often implicitly blaming women for violence She is referring to the endless stream of articles critical committed against them, or eroticising such violence; of women having children later in life, as well as of how images and stories which sexualise and objectify those having them too young, or of working mothers, women are normalised; and how women, particularly or those who stay at home. The articles accused women those in political office, are frequently vilified and infantilised of being too old for IVF and quizzed career women by the media. who have “failed” in their so called “duty” to produce Lord Justice Leveson’s response concluded: offspring. “The evidence as a whole suggested that there is force in the Another constituent sends this example of media trenchant views expressed by the groups and organisations who sexism, saying: testified to the Inquiry that the Page 3 tabloid press often failed to “The Sun’s leery front page on Reeva Steenkamp a fortnight show consistent respect for the dignity and equality of women ago was particularly outrageous. They wouldn’t print a picture of generally, and that there was a tendency to sexualise and demean a recently murdered man in his swimming trunks, one hopes.” women.” A constituent who complained about a BBC trailer for I am not suggesting that the media are solely to blame, a children’s TV programme, in which girls are shown but their objectification of women goes some considerable answering phones and applying makeup, while boys are way towards explaining why prejudicial attitudes to shown operating cameras and reading the news, got this women are so deeply entrenched and normalised. reply: A few months ago, inspired by the brilliant Everyday “I can assure you that the trail certainly wasn’t designed to Sexism and Everyday Media Sexism campaigns, I asked perpetuate any negative gender stereotyping…However, I fully constituents to help me gather evidence of the problem. recognise your concerns about how girls are shown throughout I have since joined forces with women’s groups in Brighton the trail. To that end I’d like to assure you that I’ve registered your 97WH Media Sexism12 JUNE 2013 Media Sexism 98WH

[Caroline Lucas] “We need to get used to the idea that women are not for sale.” In common with the No More Page Three campaign, I concerns on our audience log…The audience logs are seen as important documents that can help shape decisions about future do not think that women’s breasts are acceptable daily programming and content.” content for a family newspaper. For that and a whole host of associated reasons, I join the campaign in Well, the message does not seem to have got through. I calling on the paper’s editor to consign page 3 to the myself was incensed to see even a trailer for BBC rubbish bin, where it belongs. To date, public pressure Parliament, that august channel, use clips of exclusively has secured the most public sign from the proprietor of male politicians—there were 12 politicians, all of them The Sun that the paper might scrap page 3, but the clock male—to depict the cut and thrust of politics. I wonder is ticking and we still have not seen any concrete action, what message that gives to any young girls or women so I think that if page 3 still has not been removed from who might be considering going into politics. The Sun by the end of this year, we should be asking the Then, of course, there is page 3—a symbol of the fact Government to step in and legislate. that pictures that are illegal on workplace walls because of equalities legislation are still allowed to be featured There are other areas where the Government could in our newspapers. Sexually objectifying images that act as well. The National Federation of Retail Newsagents would be restricted on broadcast media before the 9 pm issued updated guidelines on displaying adult or top-shelf watershed are printed in national newspapers that are titles in December 2012. The Government could, as a not age-restricted and are displayed at child’s-eye level. small but important step, consider whether to make Defenders of page 3 argue that adults should be able to those guidelines mandatory, rather than voluntary as at choose to look at images of topless women and that present. It could also extend them to a wider range of anyone who does not like it does not need to buy The publications to ensure that young women in particular Sun. As the nation’s most popular newspaper, The Sun are better protected from page 3-type images. Hon. is seen by about 7.5 million people every day, according Members may know that there are also currently to market data. Many have not chosen to view those moves to hold supermarkets and newsagents to account images, but they cannot be avoided, whether they have under equalities legislation for stocking publications been left lying around in cafés, on the bus or in the pub. that degrade women. I hope that the Minister will look That means that children in particular are at risk of at that as well. being exposed to page 3. Women’s groups such as the End Violence Against These are a few examples of how page 3 helps to Womencoalition also argue that newspapers and magazines normalise the objectification of women’s bodies—and that are not age-restricted should always be suitable for the consequences. A schoolgirl wrote to the Everyday wider audiences—in other words, audiences that include Sexism project, saying that the boys in her school hold children and young people. That means that all content, up page 3 in the corridor and mark the girls out of 10 as including advertising, must be suitable for children to they walk past. A teacher who asked the class to bring consume if they choose to buy the publication or if they in newspapers for art class had to explain why there was should come across it unawares. The groups recommend a naked woman in a so-called newspaper. A mother that sexual material, such as images of nudity and/or who took her six-year-old daughter to a café for a treat language of a strong sexual nature that are not justified and found page 3 lying open on a table was asked, by the context, is not printed in newspapers or magazines “Mummy, why isn’t that lady wearing a top?” A father that are not age-restricted. Those principles already felt outraged that a man was looking at page 3 while his exist for broadcast media, and I am interested in what three-and-a-half-year-old daughter was having a haircut. the Minister thinks about introducing some consistency. None of those people buys The Sun and none wants to Crucially, we also need the wider media culture to look at images of topless women in newspapers, yet change. We could start by ensuring that the new editors’ they had little choice. code of conduct, introduced in the wake of the Leveson As Lucy Holmes, founder of the wonderful No More inquiry, has a much stronger clause on the definition of Page Three campaign, says, discrimination, in line with equalities legislation designed “We are all affected by Page Three whether we buy it or not, to protect people from violation and with the Government’s because we all live in a society where the most widely read paper international obligations on equality. People with expertise in the country makes ‘normal’ the idea that women are there in equality should be an integral and permanent part of primarily for men’s sexual pleasure.” drawing up and overseeing implementation of the code. The answer is not to “turn over”, as the Prime Minister That would help to deliver media that better reflect has suggested. Turning the page on inequality, prejudice, their audience. Half of us are women, yet there is still a harassment and violence does not make it go away. Nor notable absence of women presenters and journalists. It is the fact that some page 3 models say that they feel is the case that 72% of “Question Time” contributors empowered by men looking at their bodies any justification, are men and 84% of reporters and guests on Radio 4’s because many more women are disempowered by the “Today” show are men. Just 18% of presenters over 50 objectification of their and other women’s bodies. Lucy are women—that is evidence that women are battling Holmes says that we against media ageism as well as sexism. “see page after page of men doing all of this stuff, like running the It is not just TV that is the problem. Researchers have country and achieving in sport, and then there’s an image of a found that from July 2011 to June 2012 women wrote woman standing there in her pants.” less than one third of the articles in the Daily Mail, The The impact on young girls’ self-image is especially Daily Telegraph and The Guardian and only 26% of the worrying, as has been recognised by Girlguiding. It is opinion pages. Only one national newspaper is edited supporting the No More Page Three campaign with by a woman, and there has only ever been one instance this message: of a woman editing a daily broadsheet newspaper in the 99WH Media Sexism12 JUNE 2013 Media Sexism 100WH

UK. That was 15 years ago when Rosie Boycott became That is a very worthy and positive objective, and I look editor of The Independent for just three months, from forward to hearing from the Minister what practical January to April 1998. action the Government will be taking to that end to confront media sexism. I should also like to know Women are fighting back with wonderful initiatives whether he agrees with me that it is a sexist anachronism such as The Women’s Room and HerSay to promote that The Sun is still available so widely across the Palace women experts on a range of topics, yet in a media of Westminster estate and whether he will join me in culture that degrades women as standard, they are taking action to try to get rid of it. I hope that the swimming against the tide. We need media that feature Minister will lend his full support to the measures that I women in all their diversity as well, rather than media have outlined today. that inadequately reflect women’s roles and contributions to society, yet that, too, is an uphill struggle when the industry is dominated by men. 11.19 am A Women in Journalism analysis of UK newspaper The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, front pages from 2012 found that not only were more Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): This is an unusual than three quarters of the stories written by men but and refreshing debate. I probably have to choose my that men also dominated the news stories themselves. language carefully; I am reluctant to praise the hon. Of all those quoted or mentioned by name in the lead Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on her stories, just 16% were women. The analysis also found dress sense, but she certainly made a fantastic impact in significant differences in the roles that named men and the initial stages of the debate. I note that you, Mr Hood, women played in news stories. For example, three quarters reminded us all of the current code of conduct for dress of so-called experts were men and 79% of so-called in the House, but she did make an impact. She has also victims were women. Women are twice as likely to be made an impact with a powerful speech. quoted in their capacity as celebrities and 10 times as I note in passing the remarks the hon. Lady made likely to be featured as victims when compared with about the opening credits of BBC Parliament, which men. If it is true that a picture is worth a thousand I confess is not a channel that I watch a great deal, but I words, the photos that make the front pages—not just know that the BBC monitors debates such as this extremely page 3—of our newspapers also tell us a great deal carefully. The debate today is one of the few in which about media sexism. the BBC is mentioned when somebody from its public Women in Journalism’s analysis further underscores affairs department has not texted me furiously to put how much men dominate the news agenda and examines points on its behalf. I hope that the BBC has noted what the particular function that women fulfil for newspapers. the hon. Lady said about the opening credits of BBC Although there are generally strong news-related reasons Parliament representing the cut and thrust of debate for the appearance of most images of men on a sample with 12 male Members of the House and that it notes of front pages, the same cannot necessarily be said for that there are many women Members of the House, the women who feature. It cites as an example the who make a fantastic contribution to our debates. Middleton sisters, for whom The debate covers a crucial and wide-ranging issue, “the wearing of a new hat or new dress could be enough to which impacts all of us in this country. I welcome the prompt a lead front page picture, in a way that would be unlikely hon. Lady’s recent campaign and her ability to secure to be the case, say, if Prince William or Harry stepped out in a today’s debate. In responding to her remarks, I will new tie.” describe some fundamental principles in the Government’s An improved code of conduct needs to go hand in approach to media regulation and, as she challenges me hand with ensuring that the proposed new regulatory to do, provide a flavour of how we are addressing media bodies are fit for purpose. That means that the post-Leveson sexism more generally. regulatory frameworks need to institute and include a Media representation of women is rightly of great statutory body with proper women’s representation on concern to many people. As discussed in the debate, it it and full rights for third parties and groups to complain can include, in particular, images or text that are sexually about prejudicial treatment in the media. That is essential explicit or objectifying, reporting that trivialises violence if the press is to be held accountable through fair public against women and girls, or accumulated imagery that scrutiny in line with its own press code. restricts the diversity of representation of women. The Government fully recognise that concern, and the potential Sexualised and sexist representations of women in that such representations have to impact negatively on the media provide a conducive context for violence women’s participation in public life, as well as how they against women and girls; it is one in which such violence can affect the way women view themselves and how flourishes. Earlier, I cited the United Nations Committee they might be viewed by others. on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. I welcome the fact that the Government have this year It is also worth reminding the House that the media joined other member states at the UN Commission on play an invaluable role in our cultural and democratic the Status of Women in making a formal commitment life. The Government are utterly committed to supporting to act. It has specifically promised to a vibrant and diverse media industry. The press has a crucial role to play in our society: shining a light in dark “promote balanced and non-stereotypical portrayals of women places, holding the powerful to account and supporting with a view to eliminating discrimination against and the exploitation vibrant local and regional communities. Freedom of of women and girls and refraining from presenting them as inferior beings and exploiting them as sexual objects and commodities expression is a vital part of our society. As well as and instead present women and girls as creative human beings, maintaining that freedom, we as a Government are key actors and contributors to and beneficiaries of the process of committed to maintaining media that command the development”. respect of the public through high standards and are 101WH Media Sexism12 JUNE 2013 Media Sexism 102WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] The Government have considered the recommendation, and it is now reflected in the cross-party charter that we capable of appropriately protecting the rights of individuals. published in March. However, we considered it appropriate While on the one hand we must promote vibrant, to apply a threshold to the consideration of group diverse and free media, we must also maintain and complaints by the regulator, to ensure that the future protect the rights of ordinary people. The focus of regulator was not inundated with complaints whose Government regulation has therefore always been on motive was to forward the campaigning agenda of a supporting those standards and protecting individuals group or organisation, and to make sure that complaints who find themselves, often through no fault of their did not impact on the freedom of the press to express an own, the focus of the media. I will talk briefly about the opinion, which is a very important principle. To summarise: different types of media regulation in this country, the underlying principle of press regulation has always including press regulation, broadcasting regulation and been that provided something remains within the law advertising regulation. and so long as it does not inappropriately interfere with the rights of individuals, it is for adults to choose for The hon. Lady spent some time on press regulation in themselves what they want to read. The Government her speech. It is important to point out that newspapers therefore do not regulate and have no intention of are, of course, already bound by the law of the land, regulating the content of the press itself. including the Obscene Publications Acts and the Indecent Displays Act 1989. The Press Distribution Forum has published guidance on the display of adult material. Caroline Lucas: The Minister has talked a lot about The majority of newspapers already sign up to the editors’ how current press regulation means that the press are code of practice, which the Press Complaints Commission bound by the law of the land, but the point I am making is continuing to enforce until new arrangements are is that the law of the land does not go far enough. Does in place. he not agree that if Rupert Murdoch does not take steps himself and listen to the campaigners who are asking As the hon. Lady pointed out, the Leveson for page 3 to be ditched, the Government have a role inquiry considered the issues in detail. Although the and should step in at that point? The existing law is not Leveson report concluded that the editors’ code of enough. practice is generally recognised to be sound, its central recommendations were about how the code could be more effectively enforced. Although it sets out a range Mr Vaizey: I hear what the hon. Lady says and I of requirements around the treatment of individuals know that she is campaigning for a change in the law, who become the subject of the news, it does not veer but the Government’s position is that we do not interfere into the regulation of press content. That is because in press content. There are no plans to change the law in content regulation is not something that we have applied that regard. She mentioned other points in her remarks, to the press in this country, and on the whole, Leveson which it is appropriate to address while I am on the was clear that the distinction should continue. Leveson subject of press content. recommended a reformed system of self-regulation, The hon. Lady suggested that I meet her constituents including independence of appointments and funding, when the results of her campaign have been collated. an arbitration service, a fast complaints-handling That would be an appropriate meeting; I would go mechanism, and the power to demand apologies and further and suggest that other Ministers involved in levy fines. He urged the press industry to work towards these issues also take part. She mentioned the guidelines establishing a new, independent self-regulator to address of the National Federation of Retail Newsagents. I take those issues and suggested that press self-regulation the approach that self-regulation can often be more should be independently verified through a process of effective than legislation, because it is more flexible and recognition. can be updated more rapidly. I suggest that, with the As the hon. Lady pointed out, Lord Justice Leveson NFRN, the Government look at how effectively the specifically examined evidence concerning media sexism, guidelines are being applied, and that we maintain a taking evidence from organisations such as Eaves, the dialogue with the NFRN, the hon. Lady and campaigning End Violence Against Women coalition, Equality Now groups on the guidelines. and OBJECT, who jointly published a landmark report I do not have time to go into detail about broadcast late last year entitled “Just the Women.”He summarised media, but it is important to point out that there is a thus: difference between broadcast regulation and press regulation. Broadcasting is pushed into the home, whereas “The evidence as a whole suggested that there is force in the trenchant views expressed by the groups and organisations who it is often a matter of choice whether print media are testified to the Inquiry that the…tabloid press often failed to brought into the home. That is why the level of regulation show consistent respect for the dignity and equality of women is tighter for broadcasting. generally, and that there was a tendency to sexualise and demean women.” Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister give way? Among other points, he concluded: “What is clearly required is that any such regulator has the Mr Vaizey: I will take the hon. Lady’s intervention, power to take complaints from representative women’s groups.” but I have very little time to conclude. Consequently, his 11th recommendation was that a new self-regulator should enable third-party complaints, from, Caroline Lucas: The Minister is very kind. With the for example, representative women’s groups, to help 40 seconds left, I want to point out that page 3 is not a counteract media sexism, as well as other issues, and matter of choice; it is everywhere—in shops, the tube provide redress. and on buses. That is why, in the last few seconds, I 103WH Media Sexism 12 JUNE 2013 104WH again invite him to take action with me to, at the Financial Products (Mis-selling) very least, get it off the premises here in the House of Commons. [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] Mr Vaizey: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am not planning to join her campaign to keep The Sun out of 4pm the Palace of Westminster. As I said, it is a matter of choice whether people read The Sun and I do not think Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I thank that campaign would be appropriate. I have only three you, Ms Dorries; as always, I refer the House to my seconds left, so I congratulate her on this effective entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. debate. I want to discuss the limitations set by the Financial Services Authority, now called the Financial Conduct Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I suspend the Authority or the FCA, in respect of its June 2012 review sitting until 4 pm, as the 2.30 debate has been cancelled. of the mis-selling of financial products to companies by UK banks in 2005 and 2006, which I shall refer to 11.30 am hereafter as “the FSA review”. Sitting suspended. The FCA now holds the compensation fund contributed to by the banks that were guilty of such practices. The fund was set up to provide recompense to small and medium-sized enterprises—SMEs—that were mis-sold certain financial instruments. I seek the Government’s support in challenging the FCA’s definition of an SME as contained in the limitations of the FCA review, so that all businesses and not just the smaller ones may be permitted support and assistance from the FCA in claiming compensation for being mis-sold financial products. I also wish to challenge the limitation placed on the types of financial products that were part of the FSA review. In 2007, the FSA implemented new conduct of business rules, which derived from the EU’s 2007 markets in financial instruments directive. Under those rules, customers are afforded different levels of protection according to the category into which they fit. The three categories are retail, which includes private individuals and smaller businesses not regulated by the FSA; professional, which includes larger firms, some of which are regulated by the FSA; and eligible counterparties, which includes financial institutions such as investment banks and stockbrokers. Before 2007, the boundaries between retail and professional customers were significantly lower than they are now. Today, as a direct result of the 2007 rule changes, the banks are prohibited from selling many products they used to sell to their customers. Recognising, however, that we had insufficient legislation and protection for our businesses against the banks’ mis-selling of financial products back in 2005-06, I question why the FSA review protected only some and not all of those affected. I suggest that both the limitations set by the FSA fly in the face of logic and reason and wrongly exclude a number of organisations from deserved recompense. I therefore ask the Minister to require that the FCA increase the scope of the compensation fund. We should afford protection to all affected companies, regardless of their size and of which financial products they were mis-sold. Quite simply, if they were mis-sold anything, they should be entitled to the protection of the FSA review, and compensated accordingly by the FCA. In June 2012, the FSA issued a statement regarding the banks’ mis-selling of financial products. The statement reads as follows: “The FSA has today announced that it has found serious failings in the sale of interest rate hedging products to some small and medium sized businesses (SMEs). We believe that this has 105WH Financial Products (Mis-selling)12 JUNE 2013 Financial Products (Mis-selling) 106WH

[Bill Wiggin] turnover of less than ¤50 million, which is the equivalent of £42.5 million and therefore considerably larger than resulted in a severe impact on a large number of these businesses. the figure in the FSA’s definition. In order to provide as swift a solution to this problem as possible we have today confirmed that we have reached agreement with The FSA created its own definition of an SME with Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds and RBS to provide appropriate redress no public consultation and no logic or reason behind it, where mis-selling has occurred. and in a way that seems to contradict legislation and The banks will move to provide redress directly for those EU guidelines. Perhaps it was influenced by the banks— customers that bought the most complex products. They have perhaps not. also agreed to stop marketing interest rate structured collars to retail customers. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): We are talking about the Interest rate hedging products can protect bank customers very sector that has been hit hardest by the mis-selling against the risk of interest rate movements and can be an appropriate of interest rate swap agreements. All we seek is growth, product when properly sold in the right circumstances. During most of which will come from small and medium-sized the period 2001 to date, banks sold around 28,000 interest rate businesses, so does the hon. Gentleman not agree that protection products to customers. that group of companies and organisations should be These products range in complexity from comparatively simple given the best assistance possible, so that they can get ‘caps’ that fixed an upper limit to the interest rate on a loan, out of these appalling agreements and carry on with through to the more complex derivatives such as ‘structured collars’ which fixed interest rates within a band but introduced a their businesses? degree of interest rate speculation. Over the past two months the FSA has conducted a review of Bill Wiggin: I partly agree, but I would like to see these sales. We have reviewed a significant amount of documentation justice for all companies, irrespective of their number of from the firms (including sales files, customer complaints and employees or the size of their turnover. As a former taped conversations). We have also talked to over 100 customers banker, I know that the degree of sophistication needed who have come forward.” to understand these complex products is extremely high. In its investigations, the FSA found a number of If companies were not properly educated into the deals poor sales practices by the banks, including poor disclosure they were doing, why should the FSA pick one particular of exit costs; failure to ascertain customers’ understanding group to protect? I agree with the emphasis on SMEs as of risk; non-advised sales straying into advice; over-hedging, a very important sector, but they are not the only sector. which is where the amounts or the duration did not We know that many businesses were mis-sold different match the underlying loans; and rewards and incentives types of financial product. In many cases, they were being a driver of the practices. mis-sold products that were even more complicated In its statement, the FSA concluded that than the interest rate hedging products covered by the review, but because they were mis-sold a different and “not all businesses will be owed redress”, more complex type of product, they, too, are not entitled which means that only SMEs, and only those SMEs to redress via the FCA compensation fund. Could it be that were sold interest rate hedging products, were that companies outside the FCA’s definition of an entitled to redress. Those conditions left certain businesses, SME, such as my constituent, that were mis-sold complex simply because of the number of employees they had or financial products have suffered even greater financial the amount of turnover they generated, being declared losses than those that have redress available to them? by the FSA as “sophisticated investors”, and not entitled to redress via the FSA, or the FCA in its new form. In the FSA statement of last June, Martin Wheatley, managing director of the conduct business unit, said: For the FCA, a sophisticated investor is an organisation “For many small businesses this has been a difficult and that is bigger than an SME, but I suggest that the term distressing experience with many people’s livelihoods affected. must surely apply to a person, firm or organisation that Our work has focused on ensuring a swift outcome for these has a degree of sophisticated knowledge or understanding businesses that form such an important port of the economy.” of financial products, and that the level of sophistication That was rather what my hon. Friend the Member for cannot be determined merely by size. Wells (Tessa Munt) said. From information provided to me by a constituent, Surely all businesses, large and small, form an important the FCA’s definition of an SME—a “non-sophisticated part of our economy. For my particular constituent, investor”—which has been agreed with the banks, is whose case I will cover in detail, the effects of the that it is an organisation with an annual turnover of less banks’ negligent malpractices were unquantifiable. It is than £6.5 million, a head count of fewer than 50 and almost impossible to predict how the company might protected assets of less than £3.26 million. If a company have grown, how many more people it might have cannot satisfy two or more of those criteria, it is considered employed and how its development might have impacted outside the FCA’s scope for the compensation fund. on the local economy of Herefordshire had it not lost in The definition hardly covers all SMEs, especially excess of £2.25 million over just a few months, which it when we consider that they are differently defined by spent five years paying off. Because it had more than 50 the Companies Act 2006. Under that Act, a medium-sized employees at the relevant time and was doing well in company is defined as having fewer than 250 employees— turnover during the relevant period, it did not get access considerably more than 50—and a turnover of less than to the justice to which others were entitled from the £12.9 million. compensation fund. Furthermore, under European Commission guidelines Despite my constituent’s company being clearly adopted on 1 January 2005 with a view to harmonising recognisable as a medium-sized enterprise under the the Europe-wide definition of an SME, there is a third Companies Act definition, it falls outside the FCA’s definition whereby a medium-sized company is defined unique version of what constitutes an SME. I suggest as having fewer than 250 employees and an annual that it is not alone, and that it is time that the floodgates 107WH Financial Products (Mis-selling)12 JUNE 2013 Financial Products (Mis-selling) 108WH were opened to provide redress to all organisations that Furthermore, even when it explicitly asked HSBC, allpay have been the victim of bank malpractice, regardless of never received an explanation about the level of their size and of what they were mis-sold. compensation that the company would have to pay if I think that we would all agree that the FSA review the bet was lost. was necessary to bring order to the banks, to create To go back to the FSA’s investigation of bank behaviour, accountability for past negligence and malpractices and there were several findings. It found poor disclosure of to provide deserved recompense for those that had been exit costs, and my constituent told me that allpay had misled and badly advised by the banks. However, it is no contractual right to exit and that no exit costs were now time to do more. stated. It found that there was a failure to ascertain My constituent’s is a privately-owned, limited company, customers’ understanding of risk, and I know that called allpay Ltd. Entrepreneur-led and owned, the HSBC failed to explain the risks to allpay. It found that company rapidly evolved from a groundbreaking idea non-advised sales strayed into advice, and allpay told in the 1990s—the owner re-mortgaged his house to get me that it asked for advice on hedging products but was the business off the ground—and has now become one ultimately sold something more risky. It found that of Herefordshire’s biggest success stories. It was the first rewards and incentives were a driver of such practices, company to use magnetic swipe cards to collect payments and in this case the rewards for the employees who for Departments, local authorities and registered social carried out the sale were significant. Therefore, despite landlords cheaply, efficiently and safely. It now offers ticking all the boxes looked into by the FSA review, my several bill payment solutions, and processes nearly constituent still has no form of redress. £5 billion of central and local authority and RSL Ultimately, the horse did not win: my constituent’s payments every year. The business deserves recognition company lost more than £2.25 million and overnight, and reward for its services to the public sector, its with a change in the LIBOR rate, found itself innovation and its creation of hundreds of jobs in the haemorrhaging almost £5,000 a day—£35,000 a week most rural county in England. The company is still or £455,000 a quarter—in interest. That was completely growing. unsustainable, and would be for most businesses for any In 2005-06, allpay was the victim of mis-selling by its period. Worse still, those figures were the least amounts bank, HSBC. Originally, allpay asked HSBC to advise payable: if interest rates moved further from the agreed it on the very type of product that was covered by the price, they could easily double, treble or more. FSA review, but it was ultimately mis-sold something My constituent’s company was left in a very difficult significantly more complex: three multi-callable range position—completely over a barrel—facing certain accrual interest rate swaps—products that, although insolvency and the probable loss of hundreds of jobs. speculative in nature, were sold as hedging by the bank. The managing director attempted everything that he The company had banked with HSBC for many years could: he threatened, begged, cajoled and applied to and felt that it could trust the bank to recognise its exit out of an agreement that had no exit clause. It cost needs and understand which products were suitable. It the company dearly, not just in the interest payments was required to sign HSBC’s private customer terms made, but in additional costs of £1.5 million to cover and conditions, which confirmed that it did not rely on the bank’s lost income. Ironically, HSBC provided the advice from the bank, but fully understood the risks as loan for the exit payment that it agreed to take. it was a sophisticated customer. The word “sophisticated” My constituent’s company was advised to sue the was not defined. bank for negligence, but by that time it did not have the There is no evidence that allpay was made aware of resources to take on HSBC in expensive and lengthy the risks, yet HSBC continued to present more complex High Court litigation. It asked the FSA to consider products for sale. The beauty of the bank’s sales pitch allpay in its review, but the request was refused due to was to offer differing products—some suitable, but with its size at the relevant time and the type of product it a price attached, and some unsuitable, with a slight was mis-sold. additional return and a purchase price of zero. The The company asked HSBC for recompense. Appallingly, bank relied on an unsophisticated customer not to spot HSBC ignored it and responded to its correspondence the unlimited risk associated with the free products only when I stepped in to offer my support. HSBC’s should there be an adverse rate movement. in-house lawyer finally engaged with my constituent’s Under the terms of the agreement, allpay initially company and entered into some dialogue, eventually received from HSBC the difference between the interest inviting my constituent from Hereford to its offices in rate that was first set and LIBOR on a notional sum, Canary Wharf on a “without prejudice” basis to discuss provided that LIBOR remained below 5.5%. We are all a settlement. The meeting was a waste of time: it lasted aware of the LIBOR manipulation scandal, and it is no more than 30 minutes, and it appears that HSBC impossible to suggest that my constituent’s company dragged my constituent to London essentially to be told was not one of its indirect victims. to get lost. The bank made it clear that it will discuss the The agreement was for five years. HSBC, not allpay, matter further only if it is compelled to do so by the had an option to terminate the agreements at the end of FCA, and if the case is brought within the review. each quarter; allpay had no documented exit route. It In March, the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim did not realise that at the time, because in no way was it McGovern) queried why other products were excluded ever a sophisticated investor with any degree of sophisticated from the FSA review. A constituent of his was mis-sold financial knowledge about its entering into something a fixed-rate tailored business loan and was excluded akin to betting on a horse—in essence, gambling on from the review. I understand that my right hon. Friend LIBOR rates staying at a certain level. At the time, my the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and constituent’s company entirely misunderstood the risks. Skills is ready to press the FCA to extend the review’s 109WH Financial Products (Mis-selling)12 JUNE 2013 Financial Products (Mis-selling) 110WH

[Bill Wiggin] less likely to have staff or advisers with appropriate knowledge and skills to advise directors on the purchasing remit, which I wholeheartedly support. An extension of of financial instruments. the scope of the original FSA review is needed and Moreover, I understand that the FCA review also necessary. changed the sophistication test in January to ensure The decision to limit the scope of the FSA review was that certain customers who were classified as sophisticated perverse, because it did not take into account the categories under the Companies Act test are instead classified as into which companies fitted and what definition they non-sophisticated and therefore brought into the scope met, nor the fact that companies, through no fault of of the review. I am sure that my hon. Friend will their own but entirely due to a banking institution, were welcome that move, particularly as his constituency in mis-sold a financial product and suffered significant Herefordshire, like mine in Bromsgrove, has many farmers. financial loss. There is no logical explanation for the Had the change not happened, many farmers who exclusion from redress of companies due to their size or typically have larger work forces and balance sheets to the type of product that they were mis-sold. than other SMEs could have been excluded. I appreciate that an extension might open the floodgates The Government have been clear that where a business to a wave of new claims against other banks and trigger lacks the necessary skills and knowledge to understand a significant increase in their provisions for mis-selling fully the risks of such products, it should receive the liabilities, which have already more than doubled to appropriate redress. However, we do not agree that all £2 billion, but the banks might just learn a lesson. I businesses should have access to the FCA review. Instead, hope that the Government will support all affected there needs to be a defined cut-off point where more businesses of whatever size, ensure that the banks are sophisticated businesses are able to take responsibility called on by the FCA to provide compensation for their for understanding the products or services they are malpractices and that the FCA is compelled to extend entering into. There will be organisations that took one the scope of the review. of these product with a full understanding of the risks involved if interest rates changed, and it is not for the Government to perform due diligence for such large, 4.19 pm sophisticated organisations. Any such action would weaken The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): incentives for businesses to act sensibly when purchasing This is the first opportunity that I have had to serve financial instruments, and would potentially open the under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, and it is a real floodgates—a word my hon. Friend also used—to any pleasure. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for businesses that have lost out from a financial transaction. North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) on securing this I am therefore confident that the FCA has found the important debate. I acknowledge the strength of his right balance to ensure that all non-sophisticated businesses feeling on this particular subject. He has put forward a fall inside the scheme. considered and eloquent argument to the Chamber, and My hon. Friend also mentioned the limitation placed made a strong representation on behalf of his constituent. on the type of financial products that are part of the I am sure that everyone present is keen to see a speedy FCA review. Given the widespread sale of the particular conclusion to the Financial Conduct Authority review products included in the review to small businesses, it is of the mis-selling of financial products. It is only right reasonable that the FCA has established the parameters that businesses that have been mis-sold products are of its review on that basis. The FCA did that based on a compensated accordingly. full review of what products were sold to which businesses The Government have been clear from the start that and by whom, and the full review includes all those such practices are unacceptable. We take extremely seriously products that were widely sold to small and unsophisticated the abuse that has taken place, and we are determined businesses. that any wrongs that have been inflicted on businesses The FCA must also consider how to allocate its should be put right. My hon. Friend shared with us the resources economically and efficiently, and it therefore example of allpay Limited, which is a company in his seems reasonable that the review is focused on the constituency that was sold a hedging product but is not products where the bulk of sales took place. eligible for the FCA review. I am sure that my hon. Friend will understand if I do not go into the specifics In closing, I reiterate that the Government take extremely of that particular case right now, but I am happy to seriously the abuse that has taken place in very many look into any case, including the one that he has raised, cases. in further detail. I want to take this opportunity to address the key Bill Wiggin: I am most grateful to the Minister for points that my hon. Friend has raised. First, he challenged taking the trouble to reply to this debate. He is right the definition of an SME as used by the FCA in its that there are some things in there, but will he agree to review. He has argued instead that all businesses, not think about how a regulator such as the FCA should just the smaller ones, should be given support and proceed in the future so that we get regulation across assistance from the FCA in claiming compensation. the board, and not just for specific groups of companies? The FCA used the criteria for non-sophisticated It strikes me that it does not matter how many employees customers, as set out in the UK Companies Act 2006, in a company has or how big its balance sheet is, it should its objective test. That is because those criteria are used be behaving responsibly. In the case of larger companies, for classifying companies that are subject to the small more jobs are put at risk if financial mis-selling takes companies regime, and that have lighter reporting place, and we rely on the FCA to be a regulator. I would requirements. They are therefore the companies that are be grateful if he bore that in mind. 111WH Financial Products (Mis-selling) 12 JUNE 2013 112WH

Sajid Javid: Yes, I can bear that in mind. My hon. In Amenas Hostages Friend makes a characteristically good point. Throughout this debate, he has raised a number of important issues, 4.28 pm but I hope that he accepts that the FCA is an organisation that needs a degree of strong independence so that it Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a pleasure can make robust decisions and not be influenced for the to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, in what wrong reasons. is a very sensitive and important debate. When you look into the eyes of a mother who has Tessa Munt: Will the Minister consider this particular just lost her son, you begin to understand what true situation? If a company has gone into administration heartbreak is. On Friday 8 May this year, when I met because of the mis-selling of an interest rate hedging Margaret Barlow and Jan Barnes, the mother and sister product, it is by definition excluded. If it is in administration, of Garry Barlow, an innocent victim of the In Amenas only the insolvency practitioner can represent the interests terrorist attack, that heartbreak is what I saw. It is on of that company, but the insolvency practitioner is their behalf that I have secured this debate. often appointed by the bank and is extremely loath to Five months have now passed since the attack and sue the bank for redress, and if it does, it has a direct the family still have too many unanswered questions. interest, which means that there is a conflict of interest They still do not know the full and exact details of how, in that sort of situation. The company can never get or when, Garry died. In a statement to the House on redress because, effectively, the company owner has 21 January this year, the Prime Minister said: gone down the pan—his house will be gone and so on. “There is still some uncertainty about the precise facts”.—[Official It is an appalling situation. Will the Minister address Report, 21 January 2013; Vol. 557, c. 25.] that point for me? I trust that the Minister can begin to enlighten us about Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady raises an important point. some of those facts today. The issue of insolvency, insolvency law and our approach One of the main areas where we are short on facts is to that is, as she will know, looked at in great detail by how and why the attack happened. In the immediate the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. aftermath of the attack, it was rationalised as retaliation Given the connection between that issue and the one we for the French involvement in Mali. However, that view are discussing, I will make sure that my hon. Friend the is now rejected. Other motives that have been speculated Business Secretary is aware of it and responds accordingly. on are kidnapping, ransom, suicide bombers, or that Let me reiterate that the Government take extremely the attack was an attempt to secure the release of seriously the abuse that has taken place in many cases Islamic terrorist prisoners. There are even some reports and I am determined that these wrongs will be put right. that suggest that the Algerian security services may I want to see a quick solution to the mis-selling of have had some involvement. At the moment, we just do interest rate hedging products to allow those businesses not know the truth. to continue to operate and contribute to the ongoing I would be grateful if the Minister provided an recovery of the UK economy. Once again I congratulate explanation of the facts, particularly— my hon. Friend the Member for North Herefordshire on securing this debate. 4.30 pm Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

4.45 pm On resuming—

Rosie Cooper: To recap, I should be grateful if the Minister could provide an explanation of the facts, particularly the motivating factors for the attack and its purpose. We really need an answer to the most fundamental of all the questions, which is how, despite the Foreign Office and BP, independent assessments and local intelligence, were Garry Barlow and the other foreign workers at the plant left in harm’s way? How could that happen, when the Foreign Office issues travel advice, companies are paid to provide strategic risk assessments and advice on areas throughout the world, including Africa, major multinational companies running those projects employ on-site security advisers, and employees on the ground feed back information to their companies? In November, the Foreign Office amended its travel advice to increase the threat level in Algeria. An article in the Financial Times on 24 January stated: “‘there were no known specific threats to the site’”. Yet previously, in July 2012, a report by Executive Analysis named the In Amenas plant as a potential target for a terrorist attack. In the same article, BP is referenced as arguing 113WH In Amenas Hostages12 JUNE 2013 In Amenas Hostages 114WH

[Rosie Cooper] conversations with BP or the Algerian authorities about the situation within the region and about any developing “that there was no need for private guards in In Amenas”, threats to the safety of foreign workers? owing to I am sorry that I have such a series of questions, but “large numbers of Algerian security forces” there is a mountain of unanswered questions. Does the located nearby, with a full arsenal, including helicopters Minister believe that the companies employing British and tanks. Alongside that, workers, or the Algerian authorities as the host nation, fulfilled their duty of care to the staff at or returning to “access to the complex was controlled by Algerian gendarmerie.” the In Amenas plant in January? British citizens working Yet somehow, 40 heavily armed gunmen travelled unnoticed abroad need to be confident that the Government play across the desert, according to reports, and took control an active role in monitoring the security provisions of of the plant. multinational companies with British interests such as The uncorrected transcript of the Foreign Affairs BP. It is really important that there are such assurances. Committee sitting on 21 May, contains interesting evidence I will now turn to the Government’s response during from Jon Marks, an associate fellow at Chatham House. and after the hostage situation. On 17 January 2013, the He says that Prime Minister made a statement saying that the families “the plant was being softened up for such an attack, at least as far should expect “bad news”. The families learned that as we understand at present.” information like everyone else, as it was being broadcast The most damning critique of the official picture is in through the TV in their living rooms. Even the police Garry Barlow’s own words, in an e-mail to his sister on liaison teams had not been informed that a statement 30 November 2012. He wrote: was to be made, much less the content. “situation is getting dodgy here, local drivers have been on strike All the Barlow family have ever sought was to be told for 6 months, they are now on hunger strike, place is practically information before it was given to the media so that crippled and can’t go on much longer. they were able to prepare and protect their family, Government would normally step in and shoot them, however especially the children. I know how badly affected they belong to the Tuareg tribe. The Tuareg are nomadic and Mrs Barlow was. The whole family were affected, but I occupy a large area of the Sahara crossing many borders. They have seen Mrs Barlow and my heart goes out to her. recently staged a coup in Mali and took control, as they are Mrs Barlow Sr is in a dreadful state. militant Islamists. Al Qaeda are now starting to settle in Mali, this is making the Algerian Government very nervous and they have That one aspect of control in the whole situation was sent a few battalions to the southern region. They have not taken away from the family, and I have been asked to intervened in the strike as they don’t want to inflame the situation. convey their deep disappointment at the Prime Minister’s Local Tuareg have said that if any of the hunger strikers die failure to make personal contact with them; there was then they will kill 30 expats at the In Amenas gas plant. As most not even a telephone call to offer condolences to Mrs expats have been demobbed, there are only 10 of us left, they must Barlow on the loss of her son. That is in contrast to the be planning to kill us all three times over, ha ha. Don’t start any Norwegian Prime Minister, who personally met the candle lit services yet. families of the Norwegian victims of the terrorist attack. Due on Wednesday…not sure if there will be a job when I am Anyone who has suffered the loss of a loved one back on site though.” understands that such words of condolence do not take Somehow, somewhere, between the information available away the pain of that loss, yet there is the smallest and what was being communicated by the companies to comfort in those simple words, which are respectful and their staff there was a disconnect, which cost lives and demonstrate that the human life lost is valued. Public needs to be explained. statements such as laying wreaths, as the Prime Minister did in Algeria, have their place, but care and compassion in communicating with the families should have been Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): Garry paramount. Barlow was my constituent, and his widow and their two children are still trying to find out precisely what I acknowledge the work of the Minister’s colleague, happened to Garry. Mrs Barlow recently sought my the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and further assistance, to try to get more and better information Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North about what happened to Garry, because she feels that East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), in trying to keep the that has not been advanced at all since his death. I hope families informed, but the Prime Minister told the that the Minister will bear that in mind in responding. families via TV and radio that their relatives were in mortal danger, which is a very sad indictment of his priorities. I urge the Minister to review the manner in Rosie Cooper: I thank my hon. Friend. which his Department and the Government as a whole Is the Minister satisfied that the companies employing handled communications with the family and to resolve British staff at the In Amenas plant provided the correct any issues. advice and assurances to ensure those workers were Finally, I turn to the investigation that is currently safe? What is his evidence for being satisfied of that, being conducted by SO15 officers and the effectiveness beyond the companies’ verbal assurances? of that investigation. At the time of the attack, an In the light of Garry Barlow’s e-mail, does the Minister SO15 officer was sent to Algeria. Between Algiers and believe that the Foreign Office failed to react to the In Amenas, the officer was accompanied by a BP changing circumstances on the ground in Algeria? Can representative. During his time in Algeria, the investigating he explain why so many foreign workers had been officer was prevented from gaining access to the In demobbed, as Garry stated in his e-mail? Was that Amenas site not once but twice, despite the British related to the security situation? If so, why were not all Prime Minister having sought assurances on access the foreign workers removed? Did the FCO have any from the Algerian Prime Minister. Even the media were 115WH In Amenas Hostages12 JUNE 2013 In Amenas Hostages 116WH allowed access. SO15 was not allowed access, but the wherever it can. The hon. Lady is right to say that we media were. On the last occasion the SO15 officer spoke should not assume a straightforward link to events in to my constituents, he still had not managed to gain Mali given the complexity of the attack, but we do not access to the In Amenas plant, where operations are know now, and we may never know, what motivated the already back up and running. individuals at In Amenas. What we do know is that How can the families have confidence that that their actions—the cold-blooded murder of innocent investigation will offer any real answers when the crime workers—can never be justified. That is why the world scene has been compromised and vital forensic information stood united in its condemnation, and why the actions from the site and the bodies have been lost? Why does of the extremists have only confirmed our implacable there appear to be little or no co-operation from the opposition to terrorism and our resolve to fight it Algerian authorities on allowing British investigators together. access to the site? Can the Minister explain the efficacy of BP’s involvement with the investigating team given Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister that BP has not conducted its own investigation, unlike will be aware that the Select Committee on Foreign its partner Statoil? Is it not appropriate that, rather Affairs is holding an inquiry into terrorism in north and than joining the investigation, BP be considered as a west Africa. To our mind, it seems that many of the body to be investigated? Will the Minister comment on terrorists who carried out the attack, and who were the appropriateness of the investigating officers speaking involved as well in the destabilisation of the Malian at conferences on the situation when the families have force, were trying to help Colonel Gaddafi before his been given little or no information on the current progress regime in Libya fell. Many of them are not from Algeria of the investigation? but from neighbouring countries in the Sahel. Does he I thank the Minister in advance for responding to my accept that the outcome of the Libyan conflict had questions, and I hope he is able to restore some of the some bearing on the attack, and indeed on what is Barlow family’s faith and confidence that the Government happening in Mali? are on their side, with care, compassion and feeling for all members of the family being paramount. Mark Simmonds: Of course I am aware of the detail of the Foreign Affairs Committee investigation. The hon. Gentleman is partially right, in that the perpetrators 4.56 pm of that terrorist atrocity were not all from inside Algeria, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign but he will also be aware that the borders in that part of and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Iam Africa are extremely porous. It is a significant challenge pleased to be under your guidance this afternoon, that countries in the region must resolve, with the Ms Dorries. co-operation and assistance of the international community I congratulate the hon. Member for West Lancashire at both multilateral and bilateral levels, if we are to (Rosie Cooper) on securing this important debate and ensure that that sort of situation does not occur again. on the measured, calm and detailed way in which she set To pick up on one of the key elements of the contribution out her concerns and those of her constituents and made by the hon. Member for West Lancashire about other hon. Members. Before I respond to her points, I the safety of the British nationals involved, the repatriation put on record that my thoughts and sympathies are of those killed and the evacuation of the wounded and with all those affected by the terrorist attacks at In freed hostages was the top priority of the Foreign and Amenas. I am personally very sorry for the tragic loss of Commonwealth Office, and of the international community Mr Barlow and all those, UK citizens and others, who as it related to people of other nationalities. Staff in lost their lives in that terrorist atrocity. London and Algiers worked around the clock to support No one will forget the horror of those days in January, the Algerians in resolving the crisis, and our embassy in when six British nationals and one British resident lost Algeria was strengthened by 18 consular experts, six their lives. I can only begin to imagine how difficult experts from the Red Cross and specialists from the those days must have been for those anxiously waiting Metropolitan police. We gave direct assistance to the for news and how painful every moment has been since British nationals involved in Algeria, and our ambassador that news was received. The hon. Lady is absolutely was the first to reach In Amenas. Our response involved right: no words, however well meaning and however playing a leading role among the countries affected, often they are repeated, can relieve the suffering of the including sharing information with them and supporting loved ones of those British citizens and others who lost in the identification of victims. We have continued to their lives in Algeria. take a lead since then, for instance by co-ordinating I remind hon. Members that Her Majesty’s coroner is work on the return of possessions. legally responsible for determining the cause of death, As hon. Members will remember, In Amenas is two and my response must not in any way prejudice the days’ drive from Algiers; it is in the middle of the course of her inquiries. Sahara desert and is one of the most remote places in The hon. Lady raised very serious, significant, substantive the world. Information was therefore difficult to come and important issues, and I will try to address them in by, not least since we were not informed in advance of my remarks. I hope she and other hon. Members will be Algerian operations. None the less, I understand and patient. What happened at In Amenas was abhorrent, regret that the unpredictable nature of events and a lack and it was the terrorists who were responsible for the of detail caused distress for those waiting for news. tragic deaths of so many. We know that the terrorist The attack was on a significant scale. From the threat in the Sahel comes from al-Qaeda in the Islamic outset, the Prime Minister led the United Kingdom Maghreb, which aspires to introduce Islamic law across response, chairing Cobra on a number of occasions. the Sahel and north Africa and to attack western interests He continued to do so in the month after the attack, 117WH In Amenas Hostages12 JUNE 2013 In Amenas Hostages 118WH

[Mark Simmonds] and other international authorities and partners to progress enquiries and get that information on the making a ground-breaking visit to Algeria, closely followed coroner’s behalf. Regrettably, that will take time, but I by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and am sure that the hon. Member for West Lancashire will Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member agree that it is absolutely essential that the investigation for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). We believe is thorough and benefits from the maximum availability that early, proactive and personal engagement with of the appropriate amount of information. families and relevant MPs is essential. I am grateful to the hon. Member for West Lancashire for her Rosie Cooper: I am happy to agree that the investigation commendation of my hon. Friend, who did a sterling should be thorough and proper, but can the Minister job in difficult circumstances. comment on the fact that SO15 officers were not allowed My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister immediately access to begin that investigation when members of the offered ministerial contact, via police liaison officers, to media were? Surely that is the starting point for a all affected families and MPs, a number of whom took thorough investigation, is it not? up the offer, including the family of Mr Barlow. I know that my right hon. Friend has recently spoken with Mark Simmonds: I understand the hon. Lady’s point. them again and regrets sincerely that he cannot be here She was right to emphasise in her initial remarks the in person today. assurances that the United Kingdom Prime Minister I accept that we may not always get contact right in received, but I am sure she also understands that the crises where information is limited. The Foreign and Algerians are leading the judicial investigation. They Commonwealth Office always seeks to learn from such have allowed some access to the site for the repatriation incidents, and my hon. Friend the Member for North of personal property and possessions, which the UK East Bedfordshire will be doing so. He has discussed the took a lead on. I assure her that we will continue to police liaison process with the assistant commissioner press for the appropriate level of access for the UK of the Metropolitan police to see whether it can be investigative team in support of the Algerian and coroner’s improved in future. inquests. I assure all hon. Members that the Government will continue to do all they can to support the families The hon. Member for West Lancashire specifically in their search for answers to their very appropriate made the point that what happened was unclear. It is questions. still unclear. Some of the details are still not known. I know how hard that must be for the families, but it would not be appropriate for me to comment on behalf Maria Eagle: Is the Minister aware that the relatives of the Algerian authorities or BP. Instead, we very of Garry Barlow know no more now than they did in much hope that the investigation, on which the Algerian January about when and how Garry died. They are authorities are leading, and the coroner’s inquest in the becoming distressed at the passage of time, without any UK, will answer some of the hon. Lady’s questions, and commensurate increase in the amount of information those of her constituents and others. they have. We continue to discuss the detail of the In Amenas attack with the Algerian authorities at every available Mark Simmonds: That was one of the first questions opportunity, including at ministerial level, as we did I asked my officials. I prefer not to put the response on when the Prime Minister and the Minister for the the record, but I am happy to talk privately to the hon. middle east visited in the weeks following the attack. We Lady and the hon. Member for West Lancashire to give will support their investigations in any way that we can. them a more accurate assessment as to why that situation We continue to seek assurances from the Algerian is the case. Perhaps we can find a moment to do that. authorities that they will share details and access to the I also want to pick up the point made by the hon. site in the aftermath of the attack. None the less, it must Member for West Lancashire about travel advice, which be said that Algeria is a sovereign country and, just as was integral to the thrust of her initial remarks. I assure we would expect to do here, the Algerians must be her that we did not have advance warning about the allowed to conduct their investigations in accordance attack or about specific threats that would have warranted with their own laws. further changes to our travel advice. As I am sure she is The coroner’s investigation will take place early in aware, our advice already made it clear that western 2014. The Government are supporting that process. A interests were specific targets for terrorism in Algeria. small team of Metropolitan Police Service officers travelled The Foreign and Commonwealth Office closely monitors to Algeria on 18 January to lead on the identification and keeps under constant review travel advice around and repatriation of those who died, and they continue the world, including for Algeria, and the advice was to gather information. They last travelled to Algeria in updated several times in the months before that appalling May. Her Majesty’s coroner for West Sussex will hold a attack. It needs to be said, however, that travel advice is preliminary hearing on 1 July, which will set out the what it says—advice. It is up to companies and individuals scope of her investigation. to heed that advice, or to follow their course of action in It is important to understand that this is a complex the full knowledge that the advice is there. inquiry into deaths that occurred at a site staffed by The advice noted the increased risks following the multinational personnel. Nationals from nine other French military intervention in Mali. Having reviewed countries lost their lives, and individuals from a total of our advice once again, I am confident that it accurately 29 countries were involved, so much of the information reflected what we knew at the time. Had we had any that might assist the coroner is not automatically available specific information relating directly to In Amenas, it in the UK. The police are therefore liaising with the would have been passed to the company immediately. Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Algerian authorities Protecting our citizens is a priority. We try to establish 119WH In Amenas Hostages12 JUNE 2013 In Amenas Hostages 120WH as much information about terrorist activity as we can, between industry and Government on threat contact, and to communicate it both to relevant companies and informing our bilateral engagement with partners such to the public. The tragic reality is that sometimes there as Algeria on their response. I assure the hon. Lady that is no warning. that work is ongoing. From the outset, the Foreign and Commonwealth I also assure the hon. Lady that we will continue to Office has provided support to those caught up in the provide the best information possible through our travel attack and their families, and we will continue to assist advice, and we will work with countries in the region to in any way we can. Police family liaison officers remain reduce the risk to British nationals in Algeria and appointed to each family and are in regular contact. elsewhere in the Sahel and north and west Africa. As The hon. Lady mentioned concerns about BP. the Prime Minister said, we are determined to root out Companies, ultimately, are responsible for the security and defeat the terrorist scourge and those who encourage of their staff and assets. As investigations continue, it anywhere in the world, including in north Africa. however, it would not be appropriate for me to comment That issue will be debated at the G8 meeting next week. on the security arrangements at the site, or on how BP In conclusion, the In Amenas attack was a stark and the other companies used the information that was reminder of the threat we face throughout the world, available about the threat. Any specific questions on and of the importance of a global response to terrorism, those issues must be addressed to them. Nevertheless, not only over months, but over years. I hope that the looking ahead, we are doing everything we can by Algerian investigation and the coroner’s inquest will engaging closely with industry representatives to ensure help to answer some of the questions asked by the hon. that we are aware of their concerns and that we take Lady this afternoon, and that families in West Lancashire steps to give them the best support we can in keeping and elsewhere, whose lives were changed for ever by their staff and assets safe. those terrible events, will get responses to their questions. To that end, since the In Amenas attacks, we have Through the police liaison officers, we will continue to actively engaged with UK industry in the region and the inform them of progress. Finally, I offer again my extractive industries sector to review and refine how we sincere condolences and those of the Government to work together on crisis and threat management: first, the families who lost loved ones in that terrible atrocity. to ensure that Her Majesty’s Government and industry Question put and agreed to. understand each other’s crisis management mechanisms through information sharing, exercising and using lessons learned from this and other crises; and, secondly, on 5.14 pm threat management, to ensure the most effective channels Sitting adjourned.

7WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JUNE 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

A copy of the Government’s response to the consultations Written Ministerial on consumer rights and the impact assessments can be viewed here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ Statements draft-consumer-rights-bill. A copy of the draft Bill and explanatory notes can also be found on the website. Wednesday 12 June 2013

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS TREASURY

Draft Consumer Rights Bill Credit Union Maximum Interest Rate Cap

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): Today the Government Last December the Government published a consultation are publishing their response to the recent consultations on raising the maximum interest rate cap for credit on consumer rights and, alongside this, a draft Consumer union loans. This consultation sought views on the Rights Bill with explanatory notes and impact assessments. proposal to increase the maximum interest rate that UK consumer law is currently unnecessarily complex, credit unions can charge, from 2% per month to 3% per ambiguous in places and has not kept up with technological month. developments. The Government therefore propose a Following this consultation, the Government today simple, modern framework of consumer rights, which is publish their response. The vast majority of the responses set out in the draft Bill. This will help consumers and to the consultation were in favour, including individual their advocates understand their rights when things go credit unions, trade bodies, and consumer groups. The wrong, with the aim of empowering consumers and Government will therefore introduce legislation in the promoting growth through competitive markets. autumn to increase the interest rate that credit unions Part 1 of the draft Bill sets out clearly, in simple can charge from 2% to 3% per calendar month. words and in one place, consumer rights to minimum Allowing the maximum rate of interest to increase quality for goods and services, which are currently will enable credit unions to become more stable over the contained within eight separate pieces of legislation, long term, and reduce the losses that they currently and the new category of digital content, such as e-books make on small, short-term loans. This means that low- or software. It also establishes what should happen to income consumers will have greater access to reliable, rectify matters if those rights are breached. affordable credit. Even with a 1% increase in the monthly The proposed reforms will make it easier for consumers rate of interest, credit union loans will still be substantially to understand and access their key rights, including the: cheaper than the alternatives for many consumers with Right to clear and honest information before you buy no mainstream options. It is important to note that this Right to get what you pay for increase in the interest rate is permissive; it does not require credit unions to increase the interest rate they Right to goods and digital content being fit for purpose, and services being performed with reasonable care and skill charge but simply permits them to do so if they judge that the benefits outweigh the costs. Right that faults in what you buy will be put right free of charge or a refund or replacement provided. Many credit unions are strongly embedded in their Part 2 of the draft Bill clarifies which contract terms local communities and are committed to assisting those can or cannot be challenged in court for fairness; and on low incomes. Research shows that credit unions part 3 consolidates powers of consumer law enforcers—for often appeal to low-income consumers as bodies which example trading standards—to investigate breaches of are local, accessible and convenient, and which are consumer law, which are currently contained in around community-based. Giving credit unions more flexibility 60 pieces of legislation. in their lending will enable them to recruit new members, and further establish their role in helping the financially Part 3 also contains provisions to enable consumer excluded. law enforcers to ask the civil courts to require traders to compensate consumers where they have breached consumer I am placing copies of this document in the Libraries law; and to provide faster and lower cost redress for of both Houses. consumers and businesses where there have been breaches of competition law. Overall, the draft Bill reduces regulatory burdens for Asset Protection Agency business, with the aim of making markets work better. For example, businesses should have fewer and less costly disputes with customers, because rights are clearer. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Disruption caused by unplanned enforcement officers’ The annual report and accounts for the Asset Protection visits should be reduced by the proposed requirement to Agency (APA) has today been laid before Parliament. give reasonable notice to businesses when carrying out The report contains commentary on key developments routine inspections. It should be easier for businesses in relation to the APA and the asset protection scheme and consumers to hold to account those who have (APS) and the annual accounts over the period from 1 breached competition law. April 2012 to 31 October 2012. 9WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JUNE 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

The APA closed on 31 October 2012, following the with abolition, but to retain DPTAC as the Department’s Royal Bank of Scotland’s (RBS) exit from the APS on expert advisory panel on accessibility issues relating to 18 October 2012. disabled people. A public consultation was held between 11 June and 14 September 2012, on whether DPTAC should be abolished and, if so, on possible alternative arrangements. TRANSPORT Following the consultation, I have concluded that abolition would not lead to any discernible improvement in economy and accountability. Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee However, I have also concluded that there is scope for restructuring DPTAC to ensure it is a more efficient and effective body. I am satisfied that the savings identified The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport from such reforms would exceed earlier expectations. (Norman Baker): The Government’s review of non- My officials will now work together with those from departmental public bodies in 2010 recommended that Cabinet Office on the restructuring of DPTAC. As the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee DPTAC has the characteristics of a non-departmental (DPTAC) should be abolished as part of wider goals body, it will continue to be subject to review every three to improve efficiency, effectiveness, economy and years. accountability. This announcement will end a considerable period of Having considered the matter carefully and taken uncertainty for the existing members of DPTAC, and I account of the consultation responses received, I am hope will be welcomed by the majority of respondents today announcing that I have decided not to proceed to the consultation who were in favour of its retention. 313W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 314W

Stephen Hammond: Recent years have seen record Written Answers to lows in the number of killed and seriously injured road accident casualties. Child pedestrian casualties have Questions fallen considerably and are now at their lowest ever level. In 2011, there were 33 child (age 0-15) pedestrian fatalities, down 42% on the 2005-09 average and 1,569 Wednesday 12 June 2013 serious injuries, down 15%. However, we know that one death is one too many, which is why we are focusing our THINK! road safety campaigns where they will have the greatest impact. TRANSPORT Instead of delivering child road safety messages through advertising, we are working more closely with local Blue Badge Scheme authorities and other partners who engage with children directly to ensure our messages are reaching children Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and teenagers in schools. We are encouraging partners what guidance his Department gives to local authorities to communicate road safety messages to a greater extent on removing blue parking permits from circulation in PSHE lessons, assemblies, tutor times and the wider once the permit holders are deceased. [159399] curriculum by enhancing the quality of resources provided to schools. We are making these resources, which include Norman Baker: Regulations require that the badge lesson plans, posters and booklets, easier to access and must be returned immediately to the issuing authority use in the classroom and are making them available to on the death of the holder. We advise local authorities other groups who engage with children and young to include details of how to return the badge in their people including road safety officers and out of school death registry packs, and to cross reference deaths registered group leaders. in their area against their Blue Badge records so that Government marketing spend has been reduced since recall notices can be issued as required. June 2010 to help deliver efficiency savings and only the The Gov.UK website also includes a list of items most essential campaigns—including several THINK! about which a deceased individual’s family may need to road safety campaigns—are going ahead. In this new contact their local authority, as part of the process of environment, the current priorities for THINK! advertising registering the death. This includes Blue Badges. are motorcycling safety, where accident rates are highest In addition, we issue a “Rights and Responsibilities” and drink driving, where a small minority continue to booklet to badge holders which makes it clear that the flout the law. badge should be returned to the issuing authority on Our THINK! communication campaigns are only the death of the badge holder and that it is a criminal one part of our road safety work. We are also investing offence for people other than the badge holder to take in infrastructure to make our roads safer and more advantage of the parking concessions provided under efficient; taking steps to make it easier for the police to the scheme. Similar information is included on the enforce against drivers who break the law; and we have badge itself. streamlined the process for councils to implement 20mph zones and limits on their roads. Rail Franchise Advisory Panel

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for NORTHERN IRELAND Transport what safeguards are in place to ensure that members of the Rail Franchise Advisory Panel are not Fuels: Tax Evasion subject to conflicts of interest. [154463] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Mr Simon Burns: The membership was appointed Ireland what assessment she has made of the implications after consultation with the Chair of the Panel, Richard of Northern Ireland not being part of the National Brown. The code of conduct for board members of Crime Agency for measures to prevent fuel laundering public bodies published by the Cabinet Office was followed and smuggling in Northern Ireland. [158333] to ensure that there were no conflicts of interest. Mike Penning: The National Crime Agency will be As part of their terms and conditions of employment able to operate in Northern Ireland in relation to matters panel members will be expected to declare any actual or that are not devolved, including investigations into potential conflicts of interest. Any conflicts will need to smuggling by organised crime groups importing illicit be managed and regularly reviewed to avoid any perception commodities, and will continue to support HMRC activity of bias, taking account of the need for the panel also to to tackle fuel laundering, as SOCA does now. be populated by members with relevant expertise and The failure of the Northern Ireland Executive to experience. agree a legislative consent motion in the Assembly, while very disappointing, only prevents the National Roads: Safety Crime Agency undertaking operational activities which relate to transferred matters. However, NCA will be Mr Khalid Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State able to provide support and advice to the PSNI in for Transport if he will consider introducing a national relation to matters falling within devolved responsibilities. road safety awareness campaign aimed at children and It will also be possible to designate National Crime young people similar to the Green Man campaigns of Agency Officers in Northern Ireland with customs and the past. [159300] immigration powers. 315W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 316W

Parades Commission Organisations and experts have also engaged via the 2050 Wiki, which is designed to provide a free-flowing Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern exchange of new evidence as technologies and their Ireland (1) at how many party conferences the Parades costs develop. Their responses are visible in the wiki at: Commission has been represented in each year since http://2050-calculator-tool-wiki.decc.gov.uk that body’s creation; [158558] (2) how much the Parades Commission has spent on The 2050 Calculator was built with an ethos of attendance at political party events in Northern Ireland transparency and accessibility in order to create and share a platform for informed debate about the energy in each year since that body’s creation. [158559] options facing the UK over the long-term. As such, the Mrs Villiers: The Northern Ireland Office has recently Department has welcomed and encouraged its use, both reviewed its approach to Parades Commission attendance in the UK and abroad. This has included through its at party conferences in line with Cabinet Office guidance. use to support parliamentary debate, as an educational In light of this, we have advised the Commission to resource in schools and universities, and its adaptation consult with the NIO in advance of any future attendance by foreign Governments to help develop energy policy at such events. For previous years, the right hon. Member overseas. may wish to write to the Commission directly in relation To encourage this we have developed a School’s to their attendance at party conferences and charges Toolkit to support teachers in providing informative paid in relation to such attendance. and interactive lessons on how the UK can power itself Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This is available Northern Ireland how much the Parades Commission online: has spent on (a) marketing and (b) press advertising https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/my2050- in each year since its creation. [158560] schools-toolkit We have also trialled various approaches to facilitating Mrs Villiers: The Parades Commission for Northern public debate, the results of which are listed online at: Ireland may procure marketing and press advertising services, without prior approval of the NIO, subject to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130109092117/ http://decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/tackling-climate-change/ being within approved control limits that are set by 2050/3680-findings-from-the-decc-2050-deliberative- Cabinet Office. Given this level of operational independence dialogues.pdf from Government, the right hon. Member may wish to The Department, working with the Foreign and write to the Commission directly on these matters. Commonwealth Office, has also undertaken significant international engagement to encourage other Governments ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE to develop their own 2050 Calculators to enhance their Energy ability to plan a low-carbon energy system. Calculators have now been completed by the People’s Republic of Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy China and South Korea, and are under development in and Climate Change what representations his Department nine further countries. The current state of this international has received from individuals, groups, research bodies, outreach is listed online: consultants and other interested parties on its 2050 https://www.gov.uk/international-outreach-work-of-the-2050- calculator energy modelling tool since it was launched; calculator and what encouragement his Department has given for the calculator to be used by external parties. [158340] Energy Companies Obligation Gregory Barker: The 2050 Pathways Calculator was first published in 2010. Over a hundred experts and Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy organisations were involved in its development, and and Climate Change what plans his Department has to since publication several hundred organisations have offer households living in privately-owned properties engaged with the Calculator. In particular, individuals with gas central heating access to the same level of and organisations have engaged through the public Call Energy Company Obligation funding as is available to for Evidence period in autumn 2010, the stakeholder similar households with electric heating. [159566] presentations following launch, public energy debates— for example at Hay Festival and in the cities of Nottingham and Liverpool, online discussions, parliamentary Gregory Barker: The Energy Company Obligation events and committees, academic projects and through (ECO) is an obligation on the main energy supply international collaborations. companies which they meet by promoting energy domestic efficiency measures. Both gas-heated and electrically-heated The respondents to the Call for Evidence are listed properties are eligible for support, but within the terms online at: of the scheme how companies meet their obligations is https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/2050- a matter for them, including what measures they promote pathways-analysis and where they make funding available. In addition, many thousand individuals have accessed and used the 2050 Calculator online, with more than 80,000 unique visitors to the web tool, and 94,000 Greenhouse Gas Emissions having used the My2050 simulation. Individuals and organisations have used the calculator to contribute Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy their preferred pathway for the UK energy system. and Climate Change what the total tonnage of Some of those contributions are listed here: greenhouse gases emitted was in the UK in each year https://www.gov.uk/2050-pathways-analysis#the-debate for which figures are available. [159059] 317W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 318W

Gregory Barker: The UK’s total greenhouse gas emissions (c) transformers, (d) offshore cables, (e) onshore cables, are available for the years 1990 to 2012. These are (f) array cables and (g) subsea capability that is being provided in the following table in millions of tonnes provided by firms based in (i) Hartlepool constituency, carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e). Further information (ii) Teesside, (iii) the North East and (iv) the UK; and if on how these numbers are calculated can be found at he will make a statement. [158117] the following website address: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/final-uk- Michael Fallon: The Department is working with the emissions-estimates Offshore Wind Industry Council to develop an agreed Table: UK Greenhouse gas emissions as reported in the 2011 methodology to measure and report on UK content of Greenhouse Gas Inventory and provisional statistics release—(includes future offshore wind farm projects. emissions removals from land use, land use change and forestry) The methodology will help us review progress towards Total emissions (million tonne a competitive supply chain in the UK, providing a CO equivalent) 2 much higher percentage content of offshore wind farm 1990 769.7 projects. 1991 776.5 1992 753.4 1993 732.4 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER 1994 720.3 Lobbying 1995 711.0 1996 731.4 Paul Flynn: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how 1997 704.8 many staff in his Department have worked on the 1998 703.1 creation of a Register of Lobbyists since May 2010; 1999 672.0 which (a) individuals and (b) organisations he has met 2000 675.2 to discuss developing such a register since May 2010; 2001 678.9 and what draft documents his Department has produced 2002 658.6 on the development of a Register of Lobbyists since 2003 665.5 May 2010. [158843] 2004 665.2 2005 659.0 Miss Chloe Smith: A number of staff members from 2006 655.0 various teams have contributed differing proportions of 2007 644.7 their time to the development of a statutory register of 2008 630.5 lobbyists. As a result it has not been possible to quantify 2009 576.8 the number of staff that worked on the creation of the 2010 594.0 register since May 2010. 2011 552.6 Cabinet Office Ministers have met with, and received 20121 571.6 representations from, a wide range of organisations 1 Provisional—Finalised February 2014 during the development of the register. Source: DECC 2013 With regards to draft documents developed in relation to the register, the Government published a Green Renewable Energy: Corby Paper in January 2012. The Government do not comment on internal draft documents, Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will visit Corby and meet representatives of Electric Corby. [158047] CABINET OFFICE Michael Fallon: I would welcome a meeting with Capita representatives from Electric Corby either in London or in Corby, depending on the constraints of my diary. Mr Sheerman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much his Department currently spends on Wind Power: Tees Valley contracts with Capita; and how much was spent in each year since 2008. [158459] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the proportion Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office contractual expenditure of the monetary value of the contract for the Teesside with Capita from 2008 to the present is detailed in the Offshore Wind Farm Project’s (a) turbines, (b) rotors, following table:

Amount spent by year (£) Capita Company 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-141

Capita — — — 11,200 — 131,845 46,202 Capita Business Services Limited 5,269,610 5,650,245 5,193,721 988,379 33,027 143,748 62,934 Capita Civil Superannuation 3,439 —————— Capita Hartshead Ltd — — 39,317 15,863 — — — Capita Health Solutions Ltd 7,441 11,426 453,137 2,220 — — — 319W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 320W

Amount spent by year (£) Capita Company 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-141

Capita Health Solutions plc 421 —————— Capita Learning and Development 13,385 7,826 — — — — 16,499 Capita Resourcing Ltd 44,844 66,943 — 2,691,561 3,862,112 9,400,16 1 2,182,078 Capita Symonds Health — — — 12,156 36,372 19,494 Capita Symonds Ltd — — 2,422 499,535 486,468 27,972 5,950 Capita Tracing Solutions Ltd — — — 1,093 — — — Capita Trust Co Ltd — — 931 — — — GBS Capita Civil Superannuation — — — 500 — — — Veredus c/o Capita Sourcing Ltd 120,326 13,084 — — — — — 1 To 31 May

As part of my Department’s transparency programme, Safety details of all contracts with a value of £10,000 or more have been published on Contracts Finder since January Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2011: Office what information his Department holds on the https://www.gov.uk/contracts-finder proportion of people who felt (a) fairly or (b) very In addition, Cabinet Office expenditure over £25,000 safe walking alone after dark, by gender, in each year is published at: for which data is available. [159016] www.gov.uk/government/publications/cabinet-office-spend- data Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Childbirth asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: Andrew George: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Office how many live births there were in each (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for the Home Department asking for the constituent country of the UK in each quarter of 2012. proportion of people who felt (a) fairly or (b) very safe walking [159569] alone after dark, by gender, in each year for which data is available. (159016) Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The Crime Survey for England and Wales has included the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have question ‘How safe do you feel walking alone in this area after asked the authority to reply. dark?’ since the survey began in 1981. The proportion of people who said that they felt ‘fairly safe’ or ‘very safe’ walking alone Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: after dark, by gender, is included in the following table for each As Director General for the Office for National Statistics year that the survey has taken place since 1981. (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your recent question to the Table: Proportion of people who said that they felt ‘fairly safe’ or ‘very Minister for the Cabinet Office asking how many live births there safe’ walking alone after dark by gender, 1981 to 2011/12, England and were in each constituent country of the UK in each quarter of Wales 2012 [159569]. Percentage The table below shows the number of live births in the constituent Very safe Fairly safe Total proportion countries of the UK by quarter for 2012. Births data for quarter 4 feeling very or England and Wales will be published in August 2013. fairly safe Number of live births by quarter, 2012 (provisional), UK and Male Female Male Female Male Female constituent countries Number of live births (thousand) 1981 45 12 41 37 86 49 Year and Northern 1983 50 14 37 38 87 52 quarter UK England Wales Scotland Ireland 1987 45 12 40 38 85 51 1991 43 12 43 39 86 51 2012 1993 39 10 44 36 84 46 March 201.1 170.9 8.8 14.8 6.6 1995 40 11 45 42 85 53 (Q1) 1997 41 11 44 40 85 52 June (Q2) 201.0 171.8 8.6 14.3 6.2 1999 39 12 45 41 84 53 September 207.7 177.7 9.0 14.7 6.3 (Q3) 2001/02 41 14 42 38 84 53 December n/a n/a n/a 14.2 6.2 2002/03 40 13 42 37 82 51 (Q4) 2003/04 42 15 42 39 84 53 n/a Denotes not yet available 2004/05 43 16 42 41 85 57 Note: 2005/06 40 15 43 40 83 55 Data are provisional 2006/07 39 16 44 40 83 56 Source: Office for National Statistics 2007/08 40 16 43 40 83 56 For more information, quarterly births data are published on 2008/09 41 17 43 40 83 57 the ONS website at: 2009/10 45 19 40 42 85 61 www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/vital-statistics--population- 2010/11 47 21 39 43 86 64 and-health-reference-tables/summer-2013-update/index.html 2011/12 48 22 40 43 87 65 321W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 322W

Note: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Prior to 2001/02, CSEW estimates relate to the calendar year (January to December). From2001/02 onwards estimates relate to the financial year (April to March). Accountancy Source: Crime Survey for England and Wales The Crime Survey for England and Wales is a face-to-face Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for victimisation survey in which people resident in households in Business, Innovation and Skills what the names, job England and Wales are asked about their experiences and perceptions titles, area of work, term of appointment and civil of crime and crime-related issues. Data for 2012/13 will be available service equivalent grade are of personnel currently seconded from 18 July 2013. to his Department from the big four accountancy firms. Crime statistics for Scotland and Northern Ireland are collected [159037] and published separately, and can be downloaded from: Scotland: Jo Swinson: The information the Department holds http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Crime- on personnel seconded from KMPG; Ernst and Young; Justice PWC and Deloitte from 1 January 2010 to the present Northern Ireland: has previously been published on the Department’s http://www.dojni.gov.uk/index/statistics-research/stats- website and is reproduced as follows. In accordance research-publications/northern-ireland-crime-survey-s-r/r--s- with data protection principles, the Department does bulletin-1-2013-experience-of-crime-findings-from-the-2011- not release personal data of staff below senior civil 12-northern-ireland-crime-survey.htm service grades.

Name of organisation Role Group Date seconded from Date seconded to Salary (£)

PWC Govt Property Unit Shareholder Executive May 2011 July 2011 53,543-67,313 Deloitte Market Frameworks Business Environment June 2011 June 2012 53,543-67,313 KPMG Govt Property Unit Shareholder Executive October 2011 At Cab Office 44,186-55,562 KPMG Portfolio Unit Shareholder Executive November 2011 November 2012 58,200-117,750 PWC Strategic Relations UKTI December 2011 November 2012 44,186-55,562 Project Manager Ernst and Young Strategic Relations UKTI January 2012 December 2012 32,241-40,701 Project Manager Ernst and Young Strategic Relations UKTI February 2012 December 2012 27,070-32,866 Project Manager PWC Green Investment Shareholder Executive February 2012 December 2012 53,543-67,313 Bank PWC Senior Manager UKTI May 2012 November 2012 Withheld Deloitte Portfolio Unit Shareholder Executive February 2013 October 2013 53,543-67,313

BIS uses secondments to improve its people capabilities, responsibilities for their children, and we are extending share knowledge and expertise with private sector the right to request flexible working to everyone. We organisations and key stakeholders; and give individuals have also taken action to help families with the cost of a chance to learn how Government works. child care to ensure that parents are not ’priced out’ of Every effort is made to ensure that there are no the workplace. conflicts of interest for either side as a result of the The Women’s Business Council has just launched its secondment, and the Department makes sure that we excellent report which is focused on maximising the get the best value for money from the process. economic impact of women in the UK. We have accepted their recommendations and will publish an action plan in the autumn. We have announced a series of early Employment: Females actions which will make a real difference in each of the four key areas identified in the report. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Additionally, the Work programme is providing Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to increase unemployed men and women with unprecedented levels the number of women in the workforce; and if he will of personal support to get them into the workplace. make a statement. [158970] Universal credit will help an estimated 300,000 workless households into work. Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply as Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities. There are more women employed in the UK than ever before with 13.8 million women in employment, Higher Education: North East 355,000 more women in employment since the Government came to power. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for We are taking firm action to help women and families. Business, Innovation and Skills how many people have Through Think, Act, Report we are working with business (a) applied to and (b) accepted conditional or to tackle the gender pay gap and get more women into unconditional offers from each university in (i) the senior jobs. We are introducing a new system of shared North East and (ii) Yorkshire and Humber for the parental leave so that men and women can share caring 2013-14 academic year. [158337] 323W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 324W

Mr Willetts: The information is not held centrally. Armed Forces: Disciplinary Proceedings Data on applications and acceptances are collected by the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS), but they have not released any data for individual Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for institutions for the 2013 application cycle. UCAS is an Defence what proportion of disciplinary processes in organisation independent from government. (a) the Army, (b) the Royal Navy, (c) the Royal Air Force and (d) the Royal Marines which took place in Regional Growth Fund 2012 cited alcohol as a contributing factor. [158031]

Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Murrison: Data is available on those disciplinary Business, Innovation and Skills how many companies processes in which the charge is specifically about the have been awarded loans from Round 2 of the Regional individual having been drinking alcohol. In addition, Growth Fund; how many such companies are now in when a charge is entered on the Joint Personnel receipt of funds; and how many such companies have Administration system, there is provision to indicate received in full the amounts indicated when the that alcohol was a contributory factor in the offence. allocations for Round 2 were announced in October The data derived from this process must be considered 2011. [159345] indicative, as listing of alcohol as a contributory factor is not validated. Michael Fallon: One company has been awarded a The following table shows the proportion of disciplinary loan from Round 2 of the Regional Growth Fund; this procedures in 2012 where either the charges specifically has been paid in full. refer to alcohol or drinking, or alcohol is listed as having a contributory role in the offence. Street Trading Percentage

Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Navy (inc. Royal Marines) 31.6 Business, Innovation and Skills if he will give consideration Army 19.9 to bringing forward legislative proposals to require Royal Air Force 24.6 pedlars to obtain a licence for peddling in each area from the local authority rather than a licence for the whole UK. [159249]

Jo Swinson: A consultation on the Government’s Armed Forces: Mental Health proposals for reform of the street trading and pedlary regime was held between November 2012 and April this Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for year and the consultation responses are currently being Defence what arrangements are in place to maintain analysed. The purpose of the reforms is to ensure and improve the mental awareness and combat readiness compliance with the EU services directive. of (a) aircraft pilots and (b) other service personnel. [159020]

DEFENCE Mr Robathan: Every serviceperson, in any trade or branch, including pilots, has their own specific training Accountancy and evaluations designed to ensure they are able to deliver full operational capability, relevant to their role, Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for when called upon. Defence what the names, job titles, area of work, term From initial training to specialisation training and of appointment and Civil Service equivalent grade are career development, all training is tailored to develop of personnel currently seconded to his Department an individual’s knowledge, skills and attitude, combining from the big four accountancy firms. [159040] the military knowledge required to operate, academic skills to underpin this training and holistic training and Dr Murrison: There are currently no secondees in the support to develop the individuals preparedness for Ministry of Defence from KPMG, Deloitte, Ernst and operations. This approach enables the delivery of Young or PWC. appropriately trained personnel and force elements at readiness in the right place, at the right time and in the Africa most cost-effective manner. In addition, we exploit every opportunity to deliver Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence excellence in education and training. This includes the what assistance his Department is providing to US production of training methodologies to bring science military operations in (a) Mali, (b) the Maghreb and to the training arena and develop innovative training (c) the Horn of Africa. [R] [158931] technology, with civilian partners, to ensure that our personnel learn in the most up-to-date, effective and Mr Robathan: The UK currently has less than five efficient fashion. personnel embedded with the US in advisory roles As such, all elements of training combine to make within the US Combined Joint Task Force—Horn of sure we develop an individual’s mental awareness and Africa. readiness to deploy. 325W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 326W

Joint Forces Command and, to a lesser extent, the Veterans Welfare Service (VWS). The latest year to date (YTD) figures are shown Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in the following table: Defence what role the Joint Forces Command will have in ensuring robust financial management in the armed Written correspondence Call response times YTD response times YTD forces. [158736] HELPLINE 1 minute 26 seconds 98.72% within five working Mr Robathan: The Defence Reform Review days of receipt recommended that Service Chiefs take responsibility, VWS Not held 99.47% within five working and ultimately own the budget, for the detailed capability days of receipt planning to deliver the strategic direction set by the Defence Board. Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition to planning core Joint Forces Command Defence what arrangements are in place to escalate functions, a key tenet of the subsequent design is the cases within the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency introduction of the Lead Command concept, nominating if they are not dealt with within a satisfactory period Commands to lead on the capability planning and financial for a response. [159226] management of pan-Defence capabilities. Joint Forces Command will act as the lead Command for Medical, Dr Murrison: Information on the complaints process Special Projects, Command, Control, Communications, for veterans, including the escalation tiers, is included in Computers, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (C41SR) the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency website at: and Cyber Defence. http://www.veterans-uk.info/complaints/complaints.html Scotland The Joint Personnel Administration system (JPA) details the complaints process for serving personnel. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which external (a) organisations and (b) Territorial Army individuals his Department has engaged with as part of the Scotland Analysis Programme; and what was discussed at each such consultation. [159231] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people in each Territorial Army Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has engaged infantry company in each location received a bounty in with other Government Departments and a range of each of the last three years. [159287] external stakeholders. A wide range of defence issues relating to UK and Scotland were discussed. Dr Murrison: Figures at unit level are not collated and validated on a routine basis at present, so the information Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for requested could be provided only at disproportionate Defence how many officials in his Department have been cost. allocated to work on the Scotland Analysis Programme; The numbers of Territorial Army Group A infantry and at what cost to the public purse. [159232] personnel who received a bounty in the 12 month period to 1 April are as follows: Mr Robathan: Work on the Scotland Analysis Programme is being carried out by a small team from As at April each year: Number within existing departmental resources. 2011 3,490 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 3,330 Defence what work his Department has commissioned 2013 3,310 by external consultants on the Scotland Analysis Programme; which consultants were used; and at what cost to the public purse. [159234] Unmanned Air Vehicles

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has not Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence commissioned any work by external consultants in relation whether disciplinary measures have been brought against to work on the Scotland Analysis programme. members of the Army in relation to the operation of unmanned aerial systems. [R] [158933] Service Personnel and Veterans Agency Mr Robathan: As with any activity undertaken by Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for military personnel, Commanders may initiate disciplinary Defence what the average response time was of the action if they consider there to have been an offence Service Personnel and Veterans Agency to queries raised committed under the Armed Forces Act 2006. Such with them by veterans in the latest period for which action will depend upon how an individual has conducted figures are available. [159225] themselves, and whether any applicable regulations have been breached. All crashes involving unmanned aerial Dr Murrison: The majority of queries received by the vehicles are investigated and Defence Air Safety Occurrence Service Personnel and Veterans Agency are fielded in Reports completed and, to date, no individual has been the first instance by the Veterans UK Freephone Helpline disciplined as a result. 327W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 328W

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 May 2013, Official Report, what discussions he has had with his international column 221W, on unmanned air vehicles, whether the counterparts on the legal framework for attacks by UK-USAF airframe arrangement allows the US to use unmanned aerial vehicles targeted at particular individuals. UK unmanned air vehicles should a US unmanned air [159171] vehicle be unavailable. [R] [158973] Mr Robathan: None.

Mr Robathan: Under the Reaper agreement the United States Air Force (USAF) may request use of a UK TREASURY Reaper airframe. The UK airframes would be operated by the USAF in line with UK procedures and Rules of Banks: Loans Engagement. David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer This option has not been taken up by the USAF. US what steps his Department is taking to ensure that pilots have not flown UK Reaper except during the vulnerable people are not missold loans they cannot launch and recovery phase, from Kandahar, in support afford to repay. [158770] of operations in Afghanistan. Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Business Innovation and Skills. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to the answer of 18 April 2013, Official As set out in the coalition agreement, the Government Report, column 527W, on unmanned air vehicles, what is committed to curbing unsustainable lending and the total cost of this training was; what the cost of improving consumer protections, particularly for the training each pilot was; and by how much costs increased most vulnerable in society. The Government has taken a as a result of changes in training subsequent to the number of steps to deliver on this commitment. Hermes 450 ZK515 Service Inquiry. [R] [159084] All lenders are required by law, under section 55B of the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) to assess a borrower’s creditworthiness before providing credit or significantly Mr Robathan: Unmanned aerial systems training is increasing the amount of credit extended. provided through a combination of industry delivered courses and military run training. It is not possible to Under the CCA, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is separate training from wider activity costs. Since the responsible for licensing lenders and can take action Hermes 450 ZK515 Service Inquiry, airmanship against businesses that engage in unfair practices or development training has been enhanced for Hermes exploit vulnerable consumers. 450 pilots at a cost to date of £26,100. The OFT sets out clearly in its ‘Irresponsible Lending Guidance’ the responsibility of lenders to conduct proper assessments of affordability before granting credit. Annette Brooke: Toask the Secretary of State for Defence how many drone strikes carried out by UK armed forces Further, the OFT has statutory powers to tackle have resulted in fatalities in each of the last three years; non-compliance where there is evidence that a firm is in and how many such fatalities were subsequently found breach of the law or not meeting the required standards. to have been non-combatants. [159194] The CCA 2006 made it explicit that evidence of irresponsible lending will call into question a firm’s fitness to hold a consumer credit licence. More recently Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Government has given the OFT the power to suspend a I gave on 11 July 2011, Official Report, column 52W, to lender’s licence with immediate effect if there is serious the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). risk of harm to consumers. There are clear concerns about payday lenders providing Annette Brooke: Toask the Secretary of State for Defence loans to those who cannot afford them. The OFT is what steps he is taking in liaison with his international currently taking stringent action on non-compliant payday counterparts to regulate the use of armed drones; and lenders as a top enforcement priority. The revised payday who is responsible for the legality of their use. [159246] lending codes implemented last November also commit members of the main payday trade bodies to carry out Mr Robathan: No steps are being taken to regulate sound, proper and appropriate affordability assessments the use of armed drones, or remotely piloted air systems and credit vetting before each loan application and (RPAS), as the framework for their use is clear. The before a loan is rolled over to check a customer’s ability rules of engagement applied are identical to those used to repay. by crews of manned combat aircraft. Government is transferring the regulation of consumer The selection and prosecution of all targets is based credit from the OFT to the Financial Conduct Authority on rigorous scrutiny which is compliant with international from April 2014. The FCA will have a wide range of humanitarian law, rules of engagement and targeting strong powers to tackle consumer detriment including policy. Targets are always positively identified as legitimate the ability to ban products, order redress to be paid to military objectives. Every effort is made to ensure that consumers and impose unlimited fines. harm to civilians or damage to civilian property is Revenue and Customs minimised; this may include deciding not to use a weapon at all. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The use of any of the weapons depends upon commands whether the system of relationship-building with big from the flight crew. corporations carried out by the previous head of 329W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 330W

HM Revenue and Customs, Dave Hartnett, is still being Mr Harper: The numbers of asylum legacy cases practised by HM Revenue and Customs; and if he will outstanding which have not received a decision in the make a statement. [159054] named post codes are as follows;

Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Number introduced its Large Business Strategy in 2006 following the Review of Links with Large Business. The model of (a) MK40 0 large business relationship management pioneered by (b) MK41 0 HMRC is the most efficient way of ensuring that these (c) MK42 2 high-value, high-risk and complex taxpayers pay the tax that is due. Since 2006, HMRC’s approach has increasingly Results are based on person ID rather than case been adopted by other countries and its benefits have reference ID in line with Older Live Cases Unit reporting. been recognised by the international Organisation for As the query relies on postcodes, data quality in relation Economic Co-operation and Development. This has to formal addresses on the Home Office database may enabled HMRC to recover £34 billion additional compliance affect the accuracy of the figures. revenue between 2006 and March 2013 from the 800 largest The information has been provided from local businesses (of which £5 billion was recovered last year management information and has not been quality alone). assured to the level of published National Statistics. As Stationery such it should be treated as provisional and therefore subject to change. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what office supplies his Department purchased in each Asylum: Young People year between 2005 and 2010; and what the cost to the public purse was of such purchases. [158850] Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of Sajid Javid: The Department purchases a large range the Children’s Society report into asylum support for of office supplies (stationary) from various suppliers children and young people, published in January 2013; and it would not be possible to itemise the purchases and if she will make a statement. [158539] within the disproportionate costs threshold. Total spending in each year between 2005 and 2011 can be found in the Mr Harper: The report made a number of recommendations, following table: which I responded to during the Westminster Hall debate on asylum support for children and young people on Stationary costs £ 27 February 2013. Careful consideration has been given 2005-06 257,513 to the recommendations of the report in conducting a 2006-07 352,675 review of asylum support rates, the result of which was 2007-08 318,715 announced on 6 June 2013. 2008-09 232,641 2009-10 344,492 Correspondence 2010-11 142,759 2011-12 117,474 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when her Department will respond to Philip Alliah’s letter regarding his mother Diana HOME DEPARTMENT Adzorker’s application for entry clearance. [158694] Asylum Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for the 5 June 2013. Home Department what the current backlog is of (a) asylum cases and (b) general immigration cases. [157125] Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when her Department will respond Mr Harper: The Home Office publishes data on to the letter of Robert Kelly regarding his business asylum work in progress. This can be found here: partner, Shuai Feng Zhao’s business visa application. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ [158695] aboutus/further-key-data/ Caseloads in the general immigration system were Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on published by The Home Affairs Select Committee, in its 6 June 2013. fourteenth report (The work of the UK Border Agency (July-September 2012). The report can be found here: Cybercrime http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ cmselect/cmhaff/792/79206.htm Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Asylum: Milton Keynes the Home Department what recent estimate she has made of the cost to the UK economy of cyber-crime. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the [159065] Home Department how many asylum legacy cases are outstanding and have not received a decision in James Brokenshire: I refer my right hon. Friend to the postcode areas (a) MK40, (b) MK41 and (c) MK42. reply given on 10 January 2013, Official Report, column [159025] 418W. 331W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 332W

Entry Clearances and high-tension matches remains. A range of football- specific legislation complements public order legislation Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the which enables police to respond to incidents of violence Home Department what proportion of decisions to and disorder. Police football intelligence officers share refuse entry clearance were (a) the subject of appeals information with one another, clubs and other authorities to HM Court and Tribunal Service and (b) reversed on involved in the security and safety planning, to minimise appeal in each of the last two years for which figures the risk of violence or disorder. are available. [159027] Football banning orders are the highly effective cornerstone of our preventative strategy, prohibiting Mr Harper: The Home Office publishes data on entry those subject to an order from attending matches for clearance visas on an annual and quarterly basis. A full between three and 10 years and addressing the individual breakdown of the number of visa applications received offenders’ behaviour with additional conditions if necessary. and their resolution, along with data on the numbers of There are currently 2,426 individuals subject to orders appeals received and their outcomes, are all published. imposed in England and Wales. Football intelligence The data requested for 2011 and 2012, compiled from officers know their local individuals subject to a banning these published statistics, is shown in the following order, and take enforcement action against anyone in tables. breach of the conditions of their order. To prevent the spread of football-related violence outside the United Table 1: Entry clearance visa applications, 2011 and 2012 Kingdom, the Football Banning Orders Authority requires Applications Issued Refused banned individuals surrender their passport to nominated 2011 2,607,142 2,275,417 320,771 police stations before relevant overseas international 2012 2,562,517 2,229,357 339,965 and club matches. The Home Office continues to make Note: funding available to support local police operations Data compiled from Table ″be_01_q″ of the release “Immigration gathering evidence and seeking football banning orders Statistics January-March 2013”, available from the Library of the against persons who have been involved in football-related House and from the GOV.UK website at: violence or disorder matches. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/series/ immigration-statistics-quarterly-release Human Trafficking Table 2: Entry clearance appeals, 2011 and 2012 Received Allowed Dismissed Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2011 79,906 24,919 28,660 Home Department what recent discussions (a) she and (b) the Minister for Immigration have had with the 2012 46,071 16,636 21,831 Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice on human Notes: 1. Data extracted from Table “be.07” of the release “Immigration trafficking in the UK. [158724] Statistics January-March 2013”, available from the Library of the House and from the GOV.UK website above. Mr Harper: Home Office Ministers have regular meetings 2. Appeals received do not necessarily relate to applications refused in with ministerial colleagues and others as part of the the same period. Appeal outcomes do not necessarily relate to appeals received in the same period. process of policy development and delivery. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Hooliganism: Football Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what steps she has taken to Immigrants: English Language ensure that banning orders on football hooligans are enforced; [154823] Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) what steps she is taking to reduce levels of Home Department what plans she has to ensure that violence at and around football matches. [154822] immigrants are proficient in spoken and written English. [158952] Damian Green [holding answer 13 May 2013]: A committed partnership approach is key to reducing Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: The ability football violence and disorder. The Home Office works to speak and understand English is key to integrating with police, the football authorities, other Government successfully into British society. Migrants applying to Departments and fans’ groups to ensure there are come to the UK to work or study under the Points appropriate legislative tools available to minimise the Based System are required to demonstrate English language threat of disorder, to plan for safe and secure matches, skills. The requirements were raised in April 2011. The and to encourage self-policing by supporters. I chaired minimum required varies according to route of entry a meeting with police, football authorities and safety but generally is at least equivalent to B1 (intermediate authorities on 1 May to ensure the continuing commitment level) on the Common European Framework of Reference of all responsible agencies to working together to reduce for Languages. At B1 level, users will be able to express violence and disorder at football matches. opinions, understand factual reports in a newspaper The large majority of football supporters are law and write accurate notes of a meeting. abiding individuals. Although levels of football disorder Since November 2010, those seeking to come to the have been significantly reduced and orchestrated football UK as partners of a British citizen or person settled violence marginalised over the last decade, the risk of here must demonstrate, as a minimum, basic speaking spontaneous alcohol-fuelled incidents, especially at high-risk and listening skills at A1 of the Common European 333W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 334W

Framework. At A1 level, speakers are expected to be Table 2: Permanent migration caseworker productivity, 1 April to able to answer simple factual questions and understand 2 June 2013 basic instructions. Cases Average completed per Estimated monthly Migrants applying for indefinite leave to remain or caseworker per day equivalent for naturalisation as British citizens must demonstrate knowledge of language and life in the UK. From October Nationality 10.78 232 2013, this requirement will be strengthened to require Notes: applicants both to pass the Life in the UK test and to 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information have speaking and listening skills at a minimum of B1 and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. (intermediate level on the Common European Framework 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. of Reference). Further details were published on 8 April 3. Figures relate to postal applications only. 2013 in a Statement of Intent, which is available in the 4. Figures relate to Permanent Migration nationality applications House Library and at: despatched between 1 April and 2 June 2013. 5. Monthly equivalent estimate based on five days per week and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/knowledge-of- 4.3 weeks per month. language-and-life-in-the-uk-for-settlement-and- naturalisation-statement-of-intent Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Immigration Home Department how many reconsideration requests were received by the UK Border Agency in respect of Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for the refusal decisions for each category of decision except Home Department what the level of primary immigration entry clearance decisions in each of the last two years was from (a) Somalia, (b) Congo, (c) Pakistan, (d) for which figures are available; and what proportion India, (e) Iraq, (f) Afghanistan and (g) Nigeria in the were outstanding after (i) six months and (ii) 12 last year for which figures are available. [158857] months. [159026]

Mr Harper: The Home Office publishes data Mr Harper: Information on a request for reconsideration disaggregated by both visa type and by country. is only held at the level of co-ordinated paper case files, The latest quarter’s publication can be found in the or within the notes section of an individual’s records in Library of the House and on the following website: the Home Office’s Case Information Database, until a www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics- decision is taken upon the request. Consequently, the january-to-march-2013 Home Office is unable to report on the number of reconsideration requests received, or the number Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home outstanding, without incurring disproportionate costs. Department how many cases a month on average a caseworker completes for (a) tier 1 (general), (b) spouse Legal Costs visas, (c) naturalisation, (d) FLR(O) discretionary leave and (e) long residency. [158914] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: The Home Home Department what the 20 highest amounts paid Office does not hold information in a format that for external legal advice by her Department were in (a) enables all aspects of this question to be answered 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; to whom such payments readily. While I am providing data on caseworker were paid; and for what reasons the legal advice was productivity for tier 1 general and spouse/partner sought. [158621] applications, the information for the other types of cases is not disaggregated to the level requested and James Brokenshire: The information is not readily cannot be obtained without disproportionate cost. available and we would have to interrogate a huge This information is set out in the following tables. number of files to identify the highest amounts paid in each of the three calendar years. This could be obtained Table 1: Temporary migration caseworker productivity, 1 April to 2 June 2013 only at disproportionate cost. Cases Average completed per Estimated monthly Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the caseworker per day equivalent Home Department how much her Department spent on external legal advice from Queen’s Counsel Tier 6.32 136 1—General (a) between 7 May 2010 and 4 September 2012 and [158643] Spouse/ 3.17 68 (b) since 4 September 2012. partner HR/Complex 2.24 48 James Brokenshire: Our enterprise resource planning casework system is unable to separate Queen’s Counsel legal Notes: advice from external legal advice. The information is 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information not held centrally and could be obtained only at and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. disproportionate cost. 2. Figures relate to main applicants and dependants. 3. Figures relate to postal applications only. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the 4. Figures relate to Temporary Migration applications despatched between 1 April and 2 June 2013. Home Department what the highest day rate paid for 5. Monthly equivalent estimate based on five days per week and 4.3 external legal advice by her Department since 7 May weeks per month. 2010 was. [158678] 335W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 336W

James Brokenshire: The information is not readily resulting from this exercise are then considered and the available and could be obtained only at disproportionate resulting conclusions placed on the website. cost. (d) The Red Tape Challenge website publishes its responses to requests to amend or revoke regulation. Radicalism The Red Tape Challenge website can be found at: http://www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/home/index/ Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what initiatives funded by Travel the Government are in place to prevent radicalisation in the UK. [159325] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: Under the Government’s Prevent Home Department (1) what her Department’s budget Strategy, which aims to prevent people becoming or for ministerial travel for (a) the Government Car supporting terrorists, a number of initiatives are funded Service, (b) private hire vehicles, (c) taxis, (d) rail, (e) by Government to prevent radicalisation in the UK: aviation and (f) other is for (i) 2013-14, (ii) 2014-15 and (iii) 2015-16; [157528] A network of co-ordinators in priority local authority work with community organisations, agencies and Departments, (2) how much her Department spent on ministerial and support delivery of Prevent programmes. These include travel by (a) Government Car Service, (b) private hire training for frontline staff, community outreach, and community vehicles, (c) taxis, (d) rail, (e) aviation and (f) other based campaigns that rebut terrorist and extremist propaganda means in each year of the current parliament. [157549] and offer alternative views to vulnerable individuals. Over 80 locally based projects were approved in 2012. James Brokenshire: There is no separate budget for A specialist police unit that assesses internet content against the criteria set out in our terrorism legislation and collaborates ministerial travel; instead this is funded through several with industry to remove or filter illegal content from the different budgets depending on the type of transport internet. used and the reason for travel. It is not possible therefore The Channel programme offers mentoring and practical support to provide a budget for ministerial travel from 2013-2016 to help vulnerable young people disengage from extremist or for each year of the current Parliament. causes in England and Wales. The Home Office ministerial transparency returns Support to sectors and institutions that may be targeted by detail costs for overseas ministerial visits. radicalisers, or which have an important role to play in challenging terrorism and violent extremism. Costing for Government Car Services are published in an annual written ministerial statement, these can be Over 200 Prevent engagement officers connect counter-terrorism policing, neighbourhood policing and communities. located at: We report on the performance of Contest, the UK’s 2009/10: counter terrorism strategy, of which Prevent is a part, http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/ annually. The latest Contest annual report was published cmhansrd/cm101028/wmstext/ on 26 March 2013 and has been placed in the House 101028m0001.htm#10102827000372 Library. 2010/11: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201212/ Regulation cmhansrd/cm120116/wmstext/ 120116m0001.htm#12011611000194 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010/12: Home Department what processes her Department has http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ put in place to (a) monitor, (b) collate cost information cmhansrd/cm121220/wmstext/ on, (c) review and (d) respond to requests to amend or 121220m0001.htm#12122056000216 revoke regulations introduced by her Department. Details of the costs for 2012-13 will be published in [155798] the normal way later this year.

James Brokenshire: The information requested is as follows: (a) In accordance with Government policy, the Home COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Office publishes impact assessments which detail the costs and benefits for all major new measures and any Accountancy measures that impact the private sector. (b) The Home Office collates cost information through Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for its contribution to the cross Government Statement of Communities and Local Government what the names, New Regulation. This is the publication used for monitoring job titles, area of work, term of appointment and Civil new regulations and collating cost information. The Service equivalent grade are of personnel currently most recent Statement can be found at: seconded to his Department from the big four accountancy https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fifth-statement- firms. [159038] of-new-regulation-sonr (c) As part of the Government’s Red Tape Challenge, Brandon Lewis: There are currently no personnel the descriptions of a number of Home Office regulations seconded to the Department for Communities and Local have been placed on the Red Tape Challenge website for Government from any of the big four accountancy comment by the public. Requests to amend regulations firms. 337W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 338W

Emergency Services Government now funds 50% of the cost of any local discount granted. We would encourage local authorities Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for to make creative and constructive use of these new Communities and Local Government what assessment powers. his Department has made of the potential for improved service levels and cost savings from enabling local fire Street Trading and rescue services to take over responsibilities for emergency ambulance response red 1 and red 2. Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for [159022] Communities and Local Government if he will give consideration to increasing the powers of local police Brandon Lewis: My Department has made no assessment and local authorities to take legal action against of any improvement in service levels or cost savings pedlars who commit offences. [159248] which might arise from enabling local fire and rescue services to take over the responsibilities for emergency ambulance response red 1 and red 2. Notwithstanding, Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Sir Ken Knight’s recent review recommended greater the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. collaboration between the blue light services. This Department has recently consulted on reforms to the street trading and pedlary regime and the consultation Fire Services responses are currently being analysed. The purpose of the reforms is to ensure compliance with the EU services Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for directive. Communities and Local Government what assessment his Department has made of financial and other impediments arising from historical PFI arrangements to the achievement of efficiencies in the fire and rescue CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT service. [159021] Radio Frequencies Brandon Lewis: This Department, along with fire and rescue authorities with private finance initiative operational projects, is seeking operational savings and efficiencies Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, as part of the Government’s Operational Private Finance Media and Sport what consideration her Department Initiative Savings programme. As part of this work the has given to sharing spectrum at 2.3GHz; and how soon Government has commissioned the organisation, Local she hopes to be able to share this spectrum. [157985] Partnerships to assess the potential savings and efficiencies to help fire and rescue authorities to deliver these. Mr Vaizey: The spectrum at 2.3 GHz is currently managed by the Ministry of Defence. MOD plan to Non-domestic Rates release around 40 MHz for sale or sharing as part of their contribution to our stated aim of releasing 500 MHz of sub-5 GHz public sector spectrum to new uses. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Government is aware of the benefits of sharing spectrum Communities and Local Government what assessment as a most effective way to ensure efficient use of spectrum. he has made of the effect of business rates on shop Careful consideration is given to whether the spectrum vacancy rates; what his policy is on business rates; and should be released for new use or for sharing as both if he will make a statement. [159230] promote optimal use of spectrum and meet the target Government has set for release. When final decisions Brandon Lewis: We keep all taxes under review and over this band have been taken we expect that MOD have already taken action on business rates. We have will publish details. made it easier for small firms to get the small business rate relief to which they are entitled. Our reforms in the Localism Act 2011 ensure all eligible ratepayers can Skills Investment Fund automatically receive the small business multiplier, and we have removed the legal red tape requiring ratepayers Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to fill in significant paperwork to claim the relief. The Media and Sport when, and by what process, money last Administration failed to support simplification to allocated from the public purse in the 2012 Autumn help small firms when they were in office—6 March Statement and 2013 Budget Statement will be distributed 2009, Official Report, columns 1141-42. through the Skills Investment Fund. [156997] In turn, we have also doubled small business rate relief scheme, to help half a million small firms. From Hugh Robertson: The autumn statement 2012 announced October 2010 to April 2014, small firms are receiving that Government will match fund industry contributions 100% rate relief (ie pay no business rates at all) on of up to £3 million in each year over the next two years properties up to £6,000 Rateable Value, and a tapered to the Skills Investment Fund (SIF). In Budget 2013, rate relief from £6,000 to £12,000. An estimated 330,000 this was increased to £8 million in each year. DCMS are small firms are paying no rates at all. in currently in discussion with Creative Skillset, the The Localism Act also gives councils the power to body responsible for administering the funds, to determine introduce local discounts to business rates. Under the the process that money will be allocated to best support new system of local retention of business rates introduced skills provision in the film, animation, television and by the Local Government Finance Act 2012, central video games sectors. 339W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 340W

Sports Mr Timpson: The Secretary of State has responsibility for the children’s homes in England only. At 31 March Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2013 there were 2,050 children’s homes in England. Media and Sport what information her Department The 2,050 homes were made up of the following: holds on the proportion of the adult population that children’s homes (1,950); secure children’s homes (16); participated in 30 minutes of moderate or intensive and residential special schools registered as children’s sport once a week in the most recent period for which homes (84). figures are available. [159014] A table providing the breakdown of children’s homes 1 Hugh Robertson: Our latest Taking Part release showed by local authority has been placed in the Library . that in January to December 2012 44.7% of adults These data are collected and published by Ofsted. participated in at least one session of 30 minutes of http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/official-statistics- moderate intensity sport in the last week (including childrens-social-care-providers-and-places recreational walking and cycling). Data are available on the DCMS website in the following GCSE link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/taking-part- 2012-13-quarter-3-statistical-release Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what percentage of pupils in maintained schools achieved five or more GCSEs at grade C or EDUCATION above, including English and mathematics, (a) in London Children in Care and (b) nationally excluding London in each year between 1998 and 2012. [159000] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many children’s homes there are in each local Elizabeth Truss: The requested information is given authority in the UK. [159229] in the table:

GCSE and equivalent results of pupils at the end of key stage 4—years: 1997-98 to 2011-121 (Final). Coverage: London and England (state-funded sector)2 London2 England (state-funded sector excluding London)2 Percentage of pupils at the Percentage of pupils at the end of key stage 4 achieving end of key stage 4 achieving Number of end of key stage 5+ A*-C grades inc. English Number of end of key stage 5+ A*-C grades inc. English 4 pupils and Mathematics GCSEs3 4 pupils and Mathematics GCSEs3

1997-98 65,512 32.4 462,026 34.2 1998-99 66,173 33.9 467,557 36.2 1999-2000 66,980 35.1 467,363 37.6 2000-01 68,535 36.7 485,971 38.3 2001-02 69,058 38.5 488,944 39.7 2002-03 70,809 39.3 501,231 39.5 2003-044 73,397 41.0 516,699 40.3 2004-05 72,921 43.1 510,344 42.3 2005-06 74,142 45.8 518,343 43.9 2006-07 74,304 48.0 524,463 45.6 2007-08 73,362 50.7 522,444 48.0 2008-09 73,721 54.0 502,700 50.5 2009-10 74,253 58.0 501,718 54.9 2010-11 74,229 61.9 490,634 57.8 2011-12 74,534 62.3 484,545 58.5 1 Including attempts and achievements in previous academic years. 2 London and the England (state-funded sector) figures cover achievements in state-funded schools only. They do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas and so will not match with state-funded figures in the main key stage 4 Statistical First Release tables. 3 From 2009-10 iGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been counted as GCSE equivalents and also as English and mathematics GCSEs. 4 Percentages from 2003-04 include GCSEs and other equivalent qualifications approved for use pre-16. Source: Key Stage 4 attainment data

Headteachers: Resignations used by maintained schools as well as in cases where schools become academies. These agreements are voluntary Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for and neither employer nor employees have to enter into Education if he will take steps to prohibit the imposition them. While compromise agreements usually include a of gagging orders on head teachers who leave their jobs confidentiality clause, they cannot be used to suppress when their school is required to become an academy. information such as that relating to pupil safety or to [158928] prevent someone from making a protected disclosure Mr Laws: Compromise agreements are sometimes under whistleblowing arrangements. This position is used when head teachers leave a school. They can be made clear in the Employment Rights Act 1996. 341W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 342W

Health the complex benefits system, encouraging work, and ensuring that families can get the benefits they are Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education entitled to. what discussions he has had with UNICEF on the UK being 16th in its ranking of overall wellbeing amongst National Curriculum Tests developed countries. [154765] Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: I met representatives from UNICEF on Education what percentage of primary school pupils 8 April to discuss their 11th report card, on child achieved Level 4 in both English and mathematics well-being. (a) in London and (b) nationally excluding London in This Government is determined to end child poverty each year between 2004 and 2012. [159001] by tackling its root causes. Our major reforms to welfare and education include the pupil premium which is Elizabeth Truss: The requested information for the ensuring children from poorer backgrounds get the academic years 2006/07 to 2011/12 is given in the following extra support they need to fulfil their potential. The table. Prior to the 2006/07 academic year the measure introduction of universal credit will also help by simplifying was not available.

Percentage of pupils achieving level 4 or above in both English1 and mathematics in key stage2 assessments, years: 2006/07 to 2011/122, coverage: London and England, state-funded schools3 London3 England, state-funded schools (excluding London)3 Percentage of pupils achieving Percentage of pupils achieving Number of eligible pupils Level 4 or above Number of eligible pupils Level4orabove

2006/07 78,884 71 490,154 71 2007/08 80,260 73 498,192 73 2008/09 79,056 73 485,890 72 2009/10 55,004 76 352,003 74 2010/11 79,154 77 465,473 74 2011/12 78,729 82 456,334 79 1 In 2012, English was calculated from reading test results and writing teacher assessment rather than from reading and writing tests as in previous years. 2012 is, therefore, not comparable to previous years. 2 2012 figures are based on revised data, all other figures are final data. 2007, 2011 and 2012 figures are produced from the National Pupil Database. Figures for all other years are produced from the Primary School Performance Tables data. 3 Figures include Academies and CTCs, but exclude hospital schools and pupil referral units. Source: National Pupil Database

PricewaterhouseCoopers Mr Laws: No construction contracts awarded under the Priority School Building programme (PSBP) have Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for used clauses in the Public Services (Social Value) Act Education (1) what payments were made by his Department 2012. and its executive agencies to PricewaterhouseCoopers The Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 does not between May 2006 and June 2007; [158901] require or specify the inclusion of clauses within publicly (2) what payments were made by (a) his Department procured contracts. In addition, section 1 of the Act is and (b) his Department’s executive agencies to clear that the Act only applies to (a) services contracts PricewaterhouseCoopers between June 2007 and May or combined works/goods and services contracts and 2010. [158851] (b) contracts not .awarded under a framework.

Elizabeth Truss: Payments to PricewaterhouseCoopers over these periods were as follows: Pupil Exclusions: Kent Period £

May 2006 to June 2007 5,096,099 Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for June 2007 to May 2010 7,797,468 Education how many pupils have been excluded from (a) primary and (b) secondary schools in (i) Dartford These payments covered a variety of goods and services. constituency and (ii) Kent during the last 10 years. The Department did not have any executive agencies during this period. [159003] Priority School Building Programme Elizabeth Truss: Information on the number of pupil enrolments with a permanent exclusion or with one or Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Education more fixed period exclusions in Dartford constituency, how many contracts awarded to build schools through Kent local authority and England is shown in the the Priority School Building Programme have used following tables. clauses in the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 to Information has been provided for 2007/08 to 2010/11. date; and what the estimated value of these contracts To provide data for further years would incur has been. [154116] disproportionate cost. 343W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 344W

The most recent available data on exclusions was https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permanent-and- published in the “Permanent and Fixed Period Exclusions fixed-period-exclusions-from-schools-in-england-academic- from Schools in England” Statistical First Release on year-2010-to-2011 25 July 2012 at:

State-funded primary and state-funded secondary schools1, 2, 3 number of permanent exclusions and number of pupils with one or more fixed period exclusion4 2007/08 to 2010/115—England, Kent local authority and Dartford constituency Permanent exclusions 2007/08 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Number of permanent Percentage of the school Number of permanent Percentage of the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England7 960 0.02 7,000 0.21 Kent local authority 32 0.03 315 0.31 Dartford constituency 9— 9— 14 0.17

Permanent exclusions 2008/09 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Number of permanent Percentage of the school Number of permanent Percentage of the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England7 720 0.02 5,700 0.17 Kent local authority 32 0.03 215 0.21 Dartford constituency 0 0.00 9 0.11

Permanent exclusions 2009/10 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Number of permanent Percentage of the school Number of permanent Percentage of the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England7 620 0.02 5,020 0.15 Kent local authority 24 0.02 144 0.14 Dartford constituency 9— 9— 9— 9—

Permanent exclusions 2010/11 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Number of permanent Percentage of the school Number of permanent Percentage of the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England7 610 0.01 4,370 0.13 Kent local authority 19 0.02 142 0.14 Dartford constituency 0 0.00 —9 —9

Fixed period exclusions 2007/08 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1,2 Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage period exclusion of the school population8 period exclusion of the school population8

England7 22,460 0.55 176,160 5.36 Kent local authority 665 0.61 6,860 6.80 Dartford constituency 28 0.32 493 5.82

Fixed period exclusions 2008/09 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1,2 Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage period exclusion of the school population8 period exclusion of the school population8

England7 20,640 0.51 167,910 5.13 Kent local authority 635 0.58 6,197 6.19 Dartford constituency 28 0.32 672 7.84 345W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 346W

Fixed period exclusions 2009/10 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1,2 Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage period exclusion of the school population8 period exclusion of the school population8

England7 19,400 0.47 154,470 4.75 Kent local authority 649 0.60 5,704 5.74 Dartford constituency 49 0.58 356 4.27

Fixed period exclusions 2010/11 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1,2 Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils Number of pupils with 1 or Number of pupils more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage more episodes of fixed expressed as a percentage period exclusion of the school population8 period exclusion of the school population8

England7 19,730 0.48 148,900 4.6 Kent local authority 634 0.58 6,027 6.05 Dartford constituency 60 0.70 304 3.58 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including all-through academies). 4 Pupils may be counted more than once if they moved schools during the year, or are registered at more than one school. 5 Figures relating to permanent exclusions for the years 2007/08 to 2009/10 are estimates based on incomplete pupil-level data. 6 The number of permanent exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) as at January each year. 7 National figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 8 The number of pupils who received a fixed period exclusion expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) as at January each year. 9 Less than five, or a percentage based on less than five. Source: School Census

Schools: Assessments Elizabeth Truss: The Department purchases a range of office supplies including: stationery; books; newspapers; paper; publications; and office machine consumables. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education The costs of these are shown in the following table: what support will be available to dyslexic and dyspraxic students taking the new I-Level examinations; and if he Financial year Expenditure (£) will make a statement. [159071] 2005-06 410,017 2006-07 508,502 Elizabeth Truss: In March 2013, the Government 2007-08 365,775 published its GCSE Reform Equality Analysis, assessing 2008-09 336,209 the impact of GCSE Reform on pupils with special 2009-10 509,929 educational needs and disabilities. There are various ways in which a young person with special educational needs and disabilities can be supported Teachers: Training in exams and we expect these arrangements to continue when GCSEs are reformed. For example, reasonable Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for adjustments can be put in place, such as extra time or Education what (a) proportion and (b) number of supervised rest breaks. It will be for Ofqual, as the initial teacher training places for 2013 allocated to (i) independent regulator, to monitor the arrangements School Direct and (ii) higher education providers had made by Awarding Organisations for access, including been (A) offered and (B) accepted by applicants at reasonable adjustments, and assess whether they continue 31 April 2013. [154672] to be suitable for candidates taking reformed GCSEs, including dyslexic and dyspraxic students: http://tinyurl.com/equality-analysis Mr Laws: Data relating to enrolment to higher education institutions is owned and held by the Graduate Teacher Training Registry (GTTR). It publishes enrolment data, Stationery by provider, at the end of the enrolment cycle. This will include data on recruitment to School Direct.

Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what office supplies his Department purchased Education how many places for initial teacher training in each year between 2005 and 2010; and what the cost starting in 2013 have been allocated to (a) School to the public purse was of such purchases. [158849] Direct and (b) higher education providers. [154674] 347W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 348W

Mr Laws: The following table shows the initial-number Training: Higher Education of initial teacher training places initially allocated to schools via School Direct and directly to higher education 1 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for providers by training route in academic year 2013/14 . Education what recent assessment he has made of the The 2013/14 allocations are subject to changes and potential benefits of providing initial training with final numbers for 2013/14 will be published shortly after universities. [154075] the start of the academic year. Mr Laws: Higher Education Institutions (HEIs) continue ITT Training to provide an important contribution to improving the provision route ITT places Total quality of trained teachers within the reform of initial Academic HE Post- 19,513 26,307 teacher training. year 2013/14 providers graduate In a school-led system, schools will lead the Undergraduate 6,794 — commissioning of tailored training from HEIs which is Schools School 5,849 9,441 matched to their own needs. HEIs offer schools in-depth Direct subject knowledge and access to research. training School 3,592 — Universities also have a key role in responding to the Direct demands of school partnerships, supporting the increase salaried in capability within alliances and contributing their 1 ITT places for higher education providers for the academic year own expertise in training the next generation of teachers. 2013/14 can be found at the following link: http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/careers/ traininganddevelopment/initial/b00204256/itt-funding-and- allocations/allocations ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Trade Unions Bovine Tuberculosis

Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Education what payments were made to each trades for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps union by (a) his Department and (b) his Department’s his Department proposes to take to ensure that the executive agencies in each year since 2007. [158847] badger culls will not be detrimental to the survival of the population concerned as required under Article 9 Elizabeth Truss: Details of payments made by the of the Bern Convention. [159032] Department and its executive agencies over the requested period are shown in the following table. Mr Heath: We take our responsibilities under the Financial year Organisation £ Bern Convention very seriously. We responded fully to requests from the Bern Secretariat to set out the background 2007-08 Trades Union Congress 12,353 to the badger control policy and the measures we have Public and Commercial 677 taken to ensure that some badgers remain in each of the Services Union control areas. These measures include setting a maximum 2008-09 Trades Union Congress 2,919 on the number of badgers that can be removed from an 2009-10 National Union of Teachers 403 area and limiting the number of licences that can be 2010-11 No payments were made 0 granted in any one year. 2011-12 National Union of Teachers 601 The Bern Bureau Standing Committee met in September 2012-13 National Union of Teachers 276 2012 and decided that a complaint submitted to them, which denounced a possible breach of the convention, Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for was to be dismissed. They concluded that the badger Education how many full-time equivalent staff in his control policy “is within the obligation of the UK Department were working for each trades union in (a) under the Convention and should not cause a threat to 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [158848] the population if the monitoring is carried out properly”.

Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State recognises three trade unions: Public and Commercial for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) by what Services (PCS); the FDA and Prospect. criteria his Department will assess the humaneness of In 2007-08, the Department funded a total of seven the badger cull; [159033] full-time union posts; three of these were PCS posts and (2) whether the method of free shooting to cull four on behalf of all unions. In 2008-09, the number of badgers has been abandoned on grounds of (a) safety funded full-time posts reduced to five; two PCS posts and (b) humaneness. [159034] and three on behalf of all unions. In 2009-10, the Department funded two full-time posts and two 0.5 Mr Heath: The two culling methods to be permitted full-time equivalent posts; 1.5 PCS posts and 1.5 on are cage-trapping (followed by shooting) and controlled behalf of all unions. shooting. To ensure an acceptable level of safety and The Department does not hold records on the number humaneness, operators will be required to follow best of staff working on a part time basis for the unions practice guidelines, and undertake training and competence during these years. testing. 349W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 350W

Independent monitoring will be undertaken to assess the market where safe, energy-efficient, cost-effective the humaneness, along with the effectiveness and safety, and technically feasible alternative technologies have of controlled shooting during the pilots. The design of been proven and are available. [158906] this monitoring has been overseen by an independent panel of experts, who have advised on the appropriate Richard Benyon: The Government supports further methods for monitoring, which will include field proportionate regulation of the use of fluorinated gases observations and post mortems. Further details of the to combat rising global emissions. We want to encourage monitoring protocols are available online at the following the move towards more climate-friendly alternatives to link and I have also placed copies in the Library of the high global warming potential fluorinated gases where House: technically and economically feasible alternatives are http://www.defra.gov.uk/animal-diseases/a-z/bovine-tb/ available, and where their use would result in lower badgers/badger-culling-pilots/ overall greenhouse gas emissions. The independent panel will evaluate the reports from In principle, we support a phase-down in availability the monitoring before reporting back to Government. of hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) as the most suitable new Ministers will then decide whether or not the policy measure to deliver significant reductions in HFC use. A should be rolled out more widely. phase-down would allow flexibility for end users to take account of factors such as indirect emissions from Dangerous Dogs energy use when deciding what type of alternative to use. Users and producers of equipment facing a restricted supply of HFCs will switch to alternative technologies Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, where this is feasible. Food and Rural Affairs how many people were attacked by each breed of dog in each of the last five years for There may be opportunities for additional measures which figures are available; and what recent consideration to support and signpost a phase-down and further his Department has given to expanding the register of reduce the use of high global warming potential HFCs in some sectors. This could include specific bans, but prohibited dogs. [158845] these would have to be considered carefully on a case-by-case basis. Such consideration would have to take into account Mr Heath: There is no central record of dog attacks the potential of any other regulatory approaches, as by separate breed. The Government has no plans to add well as whether safe, energy-efficient, cost-effective and more types of dogs to the list of prohibited type dogs. technically feasible alternative technologies have been This position is supported by all key stakeholders. proven and are available.

Environment Marine Conservation Zones

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Tom Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his his Department holds on the proportion of people who Department will take to ensure that his Department’s accessed the natural environment at least once a week in Statutory Nature Conservation Bodies adhere to good each year for which data is available. [159017] practice in data management and work to agreed data standards, including the application of metadata and Richard Benyon: Natural England has commissioned version control to MEDIN standards, when working surveys in each of the last three years on the number of on proposals for marine conservation zones. [158041] people in England who access the natural environment. The most recent findings of the survey are included in Richard Benyon: Non-departmental public bodies, Natural England’s report entitled “Monitor of Engagement such as statutory nature conservation bodies (SNCBs), with the Natural Environment: The national survey on operate with a degree of independence according to people and the natural environment annual report from their own particular governance arrangements and are the 2011-12 survey” (Natural England Commissioned accountable for their own processes, conduct and decisions. Reports NECR094) They are also responsible for ensuring that their data These surveys show the following figures on the management standards comply with Government and proportion of the English population accessing the EU guidance. SNCBs’ quality assurance of their evidence natural environment at least once a week: and advice is provided primarily by specialist staff, often working in partnership with external experts or Population accessing natural bodies. Overview of the quality of the evidence, and the environment at least once a week way it is used, is the responsibility of their executive (Percentage) directors, supported by senior staff and external non- 2009-10 54 executive groups. For Natural England, responsibility 2010-11 53 lies with the Executive Director of Science and Evidence, 2011-12 55 supported by an external Scientific Advisory Committee. For the Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC), responsibility lies with the Director of Marine Evidence, Hydrofluorocarbons supported by the external JNCC Marine Protected Area (MPA) Sub-Group for MPA-related matters. Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for JNCC and Natural England followed their own guidance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make it for ‘Levels of evidence required for the identification, his policy to ban HFCs in new equipment placed on designation and management of Marine Conservation 351W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 352W

Zones’, which included an audit of the data that have DEFRA takes its responsibilities under the Weeds been provided to the regional marine conservation zone Act seriously and we are committed to tackling ragwort (MCZ) projects based on the MEDIN discovery metadata wherever it poses a threat. standards. These data can be found on the Natural England website. World Environment Day JNCC and Natural England also provided guiding principles for ownership, use and custodianship of data Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for for the MCZ project, which stated that ‘MEDIN discovery Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his metadata must be completed and made available for all Department took to mark World Environment Day on data’. Natural England and JNCC manage their marine 5 June 2013. [159172] data to MEDIN standards; the data they are using for their advice to Government on the proposed marine Richard Benyon: DEFRA worked with Natural England conservation zones contain metadata that is MEDIN and the Waste and Resources Action programme to and EU INSPIRE directive compliant. This is published develop a coordinated social media response to World alongside the datasets. Environment Day. This included the creation of a food waste infographic that was distributed through Twitter and Facebook. Marine Protected Areas DEFRA also produced a factsheet, with the help of the Office for National Statistics, the devolved Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for administrations and relevant arm’s-length bodies, which Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress is available at: has been made by the EU task force established to www.gov.uk/government/publications/world-environment- implement the Rio+20 decision on the conservation day-factsheet-2013 and sustainable use of marine biodiversity in high seas A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. marine protected areas. [155070]

Richard Benyon: The UK is committed to the negotiation of a new implementing agreement under the UN convention FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE on the law of the sea (UNCLOS) for the conservation and sustainable use of marine biological diversity, in Bahrain particular addressing marine protected areas and environmental impact assessments. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The UK has therefore been taking an active part in and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has the EU task forces which were set up following Rio+20 made of the level of trades union freedom in Bahrain. in preparation for the United Nations inter-sessional [158545] workshops which took place recently on 2-3 and 6-7 May. These workshops provided useful information to member Alistair Burt: Trade unions do exist in Bahrain, for states on the different approaches that could be used in example, under the initiative of HM the King in 2002 any future implementing agreement. The UK Government the General Federation of Bahrain Trade Unions was believes these workshops underlined the necessity for created with trade unions from a number of different positive decision on a new Implementing Agreement to sectors. be made before the end of the 69th Session of the UN We have been made aware of concerns regarding the General Assembly in accordance with the outcome of Bahrain Teachers Association. Trade unions can play a Rio +20. useful role in a democratic society, and we encourage their constructive contribution towards the reform process Ragwort: Shropshire in Bahrain. Capita Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for he is having with the Highways Agency and local Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his authorities to ensure that ragwort is removed from Department currently spends on contracts with Capita; Shropshire roads and destroyed. [159185] and how much was spent in each year since 2008. [158466] Richard Benyon: In February 2013 I wrote to over 500 public bodies, including the Highways Agency and Mr Lidington: Our contract spend with Capita in Shropshire council, reminding them of their responsibilities 2012-13 was £520,000. In 2011-12 the spend was £26,105 in relation to the Weeds Act (1959) and the Code of and in 2010-11 it was £28,857. The figures for previous Practice on Preventing Ragwort Spread (2003). I have years are not available online and could be obtained placed a copy of this letter in the House Library. only at a disproportionate cost. Since January 2011, Natural England has responsibility for investigating central Government Departments have been required complaints about ragwort and for taking the appropriate to publish on Contracts Finder information on the enforcement action. The expectation is that all public contracts they award: bodies will adhere to the code of practice and we www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk remain committed to working in partnership with these In addition, Departments publish details of spend in bodies to ensure the code is understood and applied. excess of £25,000. 353W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 354W

Colombia Mr Swire: Our high commissioner and the consular team in India continue to meet groups of British nationals Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign affected by property problems in order to understand and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received the issues. the high commission works with the British of the recent death threats made against members of Nationals’ Property Working Group to build dialogue the Colombian oil workers union USO; and if he will with the State Government of Goa. The high commissioner make a statement. [159107] also raises property issues with the Indian authorities whenever there is an appropriate opportunity and expresses Mr Swire: We have not received any direct reports of concern at the impact it is having on British nationals. recent death threats against members of the Colombian He most recently spoke to the Chief Minister of Goa oil workers union USO. Our embassy in Bogota will on this issue. This has led to the Chief Minister recently continue to monitor threats against members of trade calling a meeting with the British Nationals’ Property unions in Colombia, and will ask the National Protection Working Group and consular officials to hear about the Unit what actions have been taken in this case. problems and issues firsthand. Officials at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will also discuss this with Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights the Indian High Commission in London. We will continue to work with both the Goa Government and the British Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Nationals’ Property Working Group to try to find a and Commonwealth Affairs what recent correspondence mutually satisfactory resolution to this complex problem. and meetings have taken place between his Department and the UN Special Rapporteur on Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights; and if he will place such correspondence and the minutes of such meetings in the Legal Costs Library. [158781] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what the 20 highest officials have regular contact with the UN Special amounts paid for external legal advice by his Department Rapporteur on Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights. were in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; to whom such Letters sent by the Special Rapporteur to all Governments, payments were paid; and for what reasons the legal including letters to the British Government, and those advice was sought; [158618] Governments’ responses, are published in his annual Communications to and from Governments report. (2) how much his Department spent on external legal I have placed his most recent Communications to and advice from Queen’s Counsel (a) between 7 May 2010 from Governments report in the Library of the House. and 4 September 2012 and (b) since 4 September 2012; Electronic copies can be found at: [158640] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Terrorism/Pages/Annual.aspx (3) how much his Department spent on external legal advice (a) between 7 May 2010 and 4 September 2012 Guinea and (b) since 4 September 2012; [158658] George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for (4) what the highest day rate paid for external legal Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans advice by his Department since 7 May 2010 was. to invite the president of Guinea to London. [159112] [158675] Mark Simmonds: President Alpha Conde has accepted Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office the Prime Minister’s invitation to attend the G8 Meeting (FCO) and our network of diplomatic posts around the on Tax, Trade and Transparency in London on 15 June. world require external legal advice on a wide range of George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for issues, including both litigation (before national and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions international courts and tribunals) and non-contentious he has had with his Guinean counterpart about alleged matters (including commercial and property matters). police brutality in the run-up to the June elections in Records of this devolved expenditure, are not held that country. [159113] centrally and therefore answers could be given only at disproportionate cost. Mark Simmonds: We are deeply concerned about the The FCO has a central budget for external legal recent violence in Conakry. We have raised the specific consultancy, which is primarily used for payments of issue of police conduct with the Foreign Minister and external legal fees for litigation before UK courts. In the with the head of the Gendarmerie. We are encouraged period 7 May 2010 to 4 September 2012, expenditure by President Conde’s announcement of a commission £4,208,812.50 was incurred from this budget; and since to investigate the reasons for the recent violence. We are 4 September 2012 to date, the figure is £926,830.26. supporting a new EU police reform project, launched on 5 June, aimed at restoring trust between the police In terms of rates, the FCO will only instruct a QC to and the Guinea people. advise after having received a nomination from the Office of the Attorney-General, a process which requires India us to agree the QC’s hourly rate in advance. The hourly rates set by Treasury Solicitor’s Department for QCs Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaking government work are between £180 and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is £250. We do not have a central record of all rates and taking to protect the interests of UK citizens residing therefore could not prepare a list of the highest day and owning property in Goa. [158764] rates paid. 355W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 356W

Libya internationally. We are developing a UK strategy on business and human rights—based on the UN Guiding Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Principles—which will be launched soon. As part of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on what occasions this we intend to place additional country-specific guidance and for what purposes he has visited Libya in 2013. on human rights issues in overseas markets on the [158865] Overseas Business Risk Service website. This will include guidance on Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Territories to ensure that British corporations are aware Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member of our clear position on the illegality of settlements, for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has not visited and our expectation that British companies respect Libya this year. I have visited Libya twice in the last six human rights throughout their operations. months, most recently on 5-6 June, and there have been a number of additional ministerial visits since the beginning of the year. HEALTH Occupied Territories Accident and Emergency Departments

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take Health how many patients were treated in NHS accident steps to discourage private sector organisations from and emergency departments and were recommended trading with and investing in Israeli settlements. [159347] for hospital admission but were sent home because no bed was available in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and Alistair Burt: When approached by British companies, (d) 2013 to date. [159191] we set out our clear position on settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories—they are illegal, an Anna Soubry: This information is not collected. Patients obstacle to peace and make a negotiated two-state should be treated as soon as clinically appropriate, and solution harder to achieve. no patient should be discharged from hospital unless a clinician determines that it is appropriate to do so. International law does not impose obligations on corporations and for a British company to operate in, Accident and Emergency Departments: Dental Services or trade with businesses in Israeli settlements, or to provide financial assistance to companies in settlements, Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is not, per se, contrary to UK law. However, the British how many patients were admitted for emergency dental Government expects British companies to show respect treatment from accident and emergency departments in for human rights in their operations in the UK and England in each quarter since April 2009; and if he will internationally. We are developing a UK strategy on make a statement. [158844] business and human rights—based on the UN Guiding Principles—which will be launched soon. As part of Dr Poulter: The information is not available in the this we intend to place additional country-specific guidance format requested. on human rights issues in overseas markets on the Finished admission episodes for accident and emergency, Overseas Business Risk Service website. This will include where the consultant main specialty was dentistry, for guidance on Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian the period requested, are in the following table: Territories to ensure that British corporations are aware Finished admission episodes where the admission was via accident and of our clear position on the illegality of settlements, emergency (A&E), and where the consultant main specialty was and our expectation that British companies respect recorded as dentistry in each quarter since April 2009: Activity in human rights throughout their operations. English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Occupied Territories Total A&E admissions under ‘Dental’ Year Quarter consultants by quarter

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 Q1 5,385 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will provide Q2 5,373 UK businesses operating in Israeli settlements in the Q3 5,002 Occupied Palestinian Territories with guidelines for responsible business conduct in accordance with human Q4 4,557 rights. [159348] 2010-11 Q1 5,441 Alistair Burt: When approached by British companies, Q2 5,635 we set out our clear position on settlements in the Q3 5,084 Occupied Palestinian Territories—they are illegal, an obstacle to peace and make a negotiated two-state Q4 5,125 solution harder to achieve. International law does not impose obligations on 2011-12 Q1 5,929 corporations and for a British company to operate in, Q2 5,891 or trade with businesses in Israeli settlements, or to Q3 5,465 provide financial assistance to companies in settlements, Q4 5,071 is not, per se, contrary to UK law. However, the British Source: Government expects British companies to show respect Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information for human rights in their operations in the UK and Centre 357W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 358W

Accountancy programme for commissioners and providers, and specific interventions to improve experience, such as the NHS Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Friends and Family Test. Health what the names, job titles, area of work, term of The National Cancer Peer Review Programme assesses appointment and civil service equivalent grade are of the extent to which cancer patients are being provided personnel currently seconded to his Department from with integrated care and support. It assesses whether a the big four accountancy firms. [159045] team is able to demonstrate that it is a properly constituted and functioning multi-disciplinary team and that it has Dr Poulter: The Department’s Human Resources effective systems for providing coordinated care to individual Information System does not hold information on the patients. organisations from which staff are seconded into the Department. To extract this information from local Chronic Illnesses and Disability directorate records would incur disproportionate costs. Staff seconded into the Department are normally Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from the national health service, and they are appointed what proportion of people in the UK reported a to provide relevant specialism and clinical expertise not long-term illness or disability in each year for which available in the Department, for a fixed project or figures are available. [158994] activity. Norman Lamb: This information is not available in Cancer the format requested. The Third edition of the Long Term Conditions Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Compendium of Information, published in 2012 by the Health how cancer strategic clinical networks will Department of Health, suggests that there are over involve patients and the public in their work. [159068] 15 million people in England who are living with one or more long term conditions. A copy has been placed in Anna Soubry: NHS England is responsible for strategic the Library. clinical networks (SCNs), including cancer networks. The Office for Disability Issues set out in August SCNs will work on the guiding principle of engaging 2012 that there are 11.2 million disabled people in Great patients and the public in all their work. NHS England Britain, of whom 5.2 million are adults of working age, is developing an approach to ensure that public and 5.2 million are over state pension age and 0.8 million are patient involvement is effective. children. Other organisations, particularly those from social Due to the definitions of ’long term conditions’ and care and the voluntary sector, will also be important ’disability’ used, there will be some overlap between the partners in strategic clinical networks. figures for the number of people with a long term condition and the number of people with a disability. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps (a) his Department and (b) Diabetes NHS England are taking to measure and improve poor care experienced by certain groups of cancer patients in Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health hospitals; [159069] (1) how the data contained within the NHS Diabetes (2) what plans his Department has to measure cancer website will be protected once the work of NHS patients’ experience of integrated care and support. Diabetes comes to a close; [R] [159218] [159070] (2) what plans he has for the future of the NHS Diabetes website; [R] [159219] Anna Soubry: NHS England and NHS Improving (3) if he will allow a non-governmental body to take Quality (NHS IQ), the new NHS Improvement body, over ownership of the NHS Diabetes website; [R] are responsible for ensuring that experience of care is [159220] central to commissioning and care delivery. (4) what estimate he has made of the value of the The Department holds NHS England to account data held on the NHS Diabetes website; and if he will through both the Mandate and the NHS Outcomes make a statement. [R] [159221] Framework. The Mandate requires NHS England to deliver continued Anna Soubry: NHS Improving Quality (NHS IQ) has improvements in relation to patients’ experience of care, taken over the functions of NHS Diabetes. including cancer care. Decisions about ownership and archiving of information A new Outcomes Framework indicator based on which is currently on the NHS Diabetes website are a improving people’s experience of integrated care is currently matter for NHS IQ. It is currently reviewing the legacy in development. websites of the organisations for which it has inherited It is anticipated that national and trust level reports functions, including the NHS Diabetes website, and is of the National Cancer Patient Experience Survey 2012-12 in the process of transferring many of the tools and will be published in summer 2013. The results of the resources from these sites to the new NHS IQ website, Survey will continue to support the improvement of the which is expected to be launched shortly. local national health service. Final decisions about archiving the content of the NHS IQ will be working on the design and testing of NHS Diabetes website have yet to be taken. an improvement framework for engaging, involving and No formal assessment of the value of the data held improving experience of care, a capability building on the NHS Diabetes website has been undertaken. 359W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 360W

Epilepsy General practice (including dental) health services : Written complaints by subject of complaint1,2, 2009-10 to 2011-12, England 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps his Department has taken to Communications/ 11,677 11,360 11,650 reduce epilepsy-related deaths; [159288] attitude (2) what representations he has received on the adequacy Premises 773 681 650 of data on epilepsy-related deaths for informing the Practice/surgery 5,766 5,050 5,210 development of policy to tackle epilepsy mortality; management General practice 7,673 8,055 9,924 [159289] administration (3) what steps his Department is taking to raise Clinical 16,300 17,465 19,336 awareness of sudden unexpected death in epilepsy; Other 6,082 6,664 6,820 [159290]

(4) if he will meet representatives of SUDEP Action Total 152 151 154 to discuss that organisation’s work on sudden organisations unexpected death in epilepsy. [159291] approached for data Norman Lamb: Reducing premature mortality is a Of which 18 29 36 priority for this Government. incomplete returns2 The Department’s Mandate and NHS Outcomes 1 A complaint can be made concerning more than one subject area. Framework sets out the improvements in health and Where this has occurred, some PCTs have recorded a complaint health care outcomes that we envisage the national under each subject area contained within the complaint letter health service to achieve. received. 2 Information from some PCTs state they did not receive returns for The Mandate includes objectives for NHS England some practices within their area and so have submitted incomplete to make measurable progress towards reducing unnecessary data. deaths, including those from epilepsy. Note: Data as at 1 April to 31 March each year A key element to improving outcomes and tackling Source. premature mortality is having the correct data to improve K041b understanding and inform actions. Local commissioners are responsible for the provision Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for of services for local populations and may undertake Health how many GP surgeries offered extended hours awareness initiatives, if appropriate. in the evenings and at weekends in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 There are currently no plans to run a national campaign and (c) 2012; and how many are currently doing so. to raise awareness of sudden unexpected death in epilepsy. [159339]

General Practitioners Anna Soubry: Information on extended opening hours has not been collected centrally since 2009. Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s view is that general practitioners Health how many complaints his Department received (GPs) must respond to their patients about the care they from people having difficulty making a timely appointment deliver, and it believes that GP opening hours should be with their GP in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. determined locally, in line with the wishes and preferences [159338] of their patients.

Norman Lamb: The Department does not hold records of complaints centrally. General practitioners (GPs) are Health independent contractors and, as such, the arrangements for appointments are a matter for individual GP practices. However, if a patient is not happy with the arrangements Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health at their practice, they may raise a formal complaint. what information his Department holds on the Under the NHS complaints procedure, patients may proportion of people in the UK who were somewhat, raise a complaint either with their GP practice or they mostly or completely satisfied with their health in each may ask NHS England to investigate (prior to April year for which figures are available. [158997] 2013 this role was the responsibility of primary care trusts (PCTs)). Anna Soubry: Public Health England (PHE) runs a Information on the number of written complaints Lifecourse tracker survey twice a year that asks people overall is collected by the Health and Social Care about their health. The September 2012 wave shows Information Centre. The latest data available are reproduced that 68% of the public feel it is good or very good. The as follows: equivalent figure in the March 2012 wave was also 68%. The percentage varies by age, as you would expect. The General practice (including dental) health services : Written complaints by subject of complaint1,2, 2009-10 to 2011-12, England full results for the March 2012 wave can be found on the health pages of GOV.UK.The Lifecourse tracker survey 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 was conducted by the Department from March 2012 All subjects of 48,271 49,275 53,590 until April 2013 when it moved to PHE. PHE will complaint1 continue to monitor the public’s perception of individual health. 361W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 362W

Midwives NHS Walk-in Centres

Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what analysis his Department has undertaken Health (1) how many NHS Walk-In centres have closed to assess the effectiveness of midwife services in the in England since 2010; [159336] UK. [158926] (2) how many NHS Walk-In centres have closed in Dr Poulter: This Government is committed to improving the south-west since 2010. [159337] choice of place of birth, continuity of care and women’s experience of care. It is important for all women to be Anna Soubry: No information on walk-in centre closures able to give birth in a safe, high quality environment is held centrally. that is best suited to their needs. Since 2007, the local national health service has been The mandate from the Government to Health Education responsible for NHS walk-in centres. Clinical commissioning England: April 2013- March 2015, states that Health groups, overseen by NHS England, are responsible for Education England should work with NHS England commissioning walk-in centres based on an assessment and others to ensure that sufficient midwives, and other of local need. maternity staff, are trained and available to provide every woman with personalised one-to-one care throughout NHS: Databases pregnancy, childbirth and during the postnatal period. From October 2013, every woman will be able to give John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health feedback on the quality of the maternity care they what progress his Department has made on data sharing receive across the whole maternity pathway through the within the NHS; and if he will make a statement. Friends and Family Test. This test will help drive up [158329] standards and make sure maternity care is truly focused on what mothers and families want by showing where Dr Poulter: The Department’s published information women are experiencing good care and where maternity strategy for health and social care, the ‘Power of services need to improve. Information’, sets the framework and a route map to In addition, the Care Quality Commission is conducting lead a transformation in the way information is collected the third national survey of women’s experience of and used at its core and the development of the ability maternity care in England with results, identifying what to share data with patients. is working well and what needs to improve, expected NHS England’s planning guidance ‘Everyone Counts: later this year. Planning for Patients 2013/14’outlined several commitments Since May 2010 the number of midwives has increased on data sharing including every patient given the by nearly 1,400 to give the care that women need and opportunity of online access to their own primary care deserve before, during and after childbirth. medical record by spring 2015 and in 2013, consultation on plans for the provision of patient access to interoperable NHS 111 records across the pathway of care. Additionally, the Health and Social Care Information Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Centre (HSCIC) is developing a code of practice (as Health what assessment he has made of the effect of the required by the Health and Social Care Act) to be 111 telephone service on emergency care and accident published shortly. It will set out how confidential data and emergency services. [158835] should be used and shared appropriately to support care of patients and service users while protecting their Anna Soubry: NHS 111 is now available in around confidentiality.This will take into account the independent 90% of England, and it is planned that NHS 111 will be review ‘Information: To Share Or Not To Share?’, led rolled out to the rest of England during the summer. by Dame Fiona Caldicott which was published on 26 Performance has improved during recent weeks, with April 2013 and set out how best to balance the need to the majority of areas now meeting performance targets. keep patient information secure with the need to share However some providers continue to fail to meet the it among health and care professionals. The Government standards set, especially at weekends. will respond to the review recommendation over the NHS England is keeping performance under constant summer. review and is working with commissioners and providers to make improvements. NHS England Area Teams have Prescriptions been keeping a close oversight of the issues and are supporting local Clinical Commissioning Groups and Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for individual providers to ensure the service improves. Health whether he plans to allow pharmacists and NHS England has close monitoring arrangements, including practice nurses to diagnose and prescribe medicines for where necessary daily, and also reports weekly on minor conditions. [159005] performance to the Secretary of State for Health. NHS England will also be undertaking a full review Norman Lamb: Nurse independent prescribing was of NHS 111 service to ensure it is fit for the future and first enabled throughout England in 1999 and pharmacist are collecting data to monitor impact on emergency independent prescribing was introduced from 2006. Nurse service demand. In addition, the Urgent and Emergency and pharmacist independent prescribers can currently Care Review being led by Sir Bruce Keogh, will look in prescribe any medicine for any medical condition within depth at the system of emergency care and how we their competence, while community practitioner nurse ensure that it provides the care patients need, from the prescribers prescribe from a limited formulary of medicines, right people, in the right place. appliances and dressings. Nurse and pharmacist’ prescribers 363W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 364W work in a wide range of health care settings, diagnosing Rana Plaza Building and treating patients with a variety of conditions, including minor ailments. 11. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assistance her Department Strokes is providing to people in Bangladesh affected by the Rana Plaza building collapse. [159155] John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what comparative assessment he has made of the Mr Duncan: We are supporting victims of the Rana performance of (a) the UK, (b) the EU and (c) the Plaza collapse through our funding to the Centre for US with regard to (i) mortality and (ii) morbidity and Rehabilitation of the Paralysed. disability in stroke outcomes; [158339] We are monitoring the provision of help to the victims (2) what assessment he has made of the findings of and their families through NGOs, the Government, the 2011 NHS Atlas of Variation on (a) the number garment manufacturers associations and the brands of patients who experience transient ischaemic attack involved. I urged for co-ordinated action and pledged who are treated within 24 hours and (b) the number of more UK support if needed when I met the Bangladesh patients admitted to hospital following a stroke who Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and Minister of Labour spend 90 per cent of their time in a specialised stroke in Bangladesh last week. unit. [159080]

Anna Soubry: NHS England is responsible for stroke Modern-day Slavery services. The Government’s Cardiovascular Disease (CVD) 12. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State Outcomes Strategy acknowledges that the Global Burden for International Development what her policy is on of Disease study has demonstrated that the United identifying and tackling modern-day slavery in countries Kingdom does not perform well compared with a range which her Department provides aid. [159157] of similar countries in terms of mortality and disability from CVD. No assessment has been made of the findings Lynne Featherstone: DFID works to tackle the underlying of the 2011 NHS Atlas of Variation on the number of factors which put people at risk of becoming victims of patients who experience transient ischaemic attack (TIA) slavery, such as poverty, lack of education, lack of who are treated within 24 hours and the number of economic opportunities, vulnerability to economic shocks, patients admitted to hospital following a stroke who and social exclusion. spend 90% of their time in a specialised stroke unit. However, the CVD Outcomes Strategy acknowledges that there is variation across the country in the quality Pension Payments: Zimbabwe of services that stroke survivors receive. The CVD Outcomes Strategy sets out key actions for Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioners and providers to improve outcomes in International Development what assessment she has stroke and other CVDs and challenges the national made of the potential effects of withholding aid from health service to bring CVD outcomes up to the level of Zimbabwe until the Zimbabwean Government restart the best of the rest of the world. pension payments to entitled UK citizens. [159154]

Lynne Featherstone: Our aid programme to Zimbabwe is driven by the needs of people living in poverty in INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Zimbabwe. We do not give any funds directly to the Government of Zimbabwe whose responsibility it is to Gulf States pay pensions for former public servants. I sympathise with their situation, but the UK has no 9. Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for legal obligation for their pensions. My colleagues in the International Development what steps her Department FCO continue to raise the issue with Zimbabwean is taking to create development partnerships with Gulf Ministers. states. [159153]

Mr Duncan: We work very closely with Gulf Cooperation Palestinians Council countries and the Islamic Development Bank, whose generosity and increasingly structured development assistance are a great asset We have a Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for development partnership with the United Arab Emirates International Development what assessment her which includes responding to the crisis in Syria by Department has made of the humanitarian situation in supporting the educational needs of children in a UAE Gaza; and if she will make a statement. [159156] funded refugee camp in Jordan. We are working with the Saudi Government through the Friends of Yemen Mr Duncan: The situation in Gaza is both tragic and initiative which generated $7.8 billion of pledges to unsustainable. 90% of drinking water does not meet support Yemen’s development. We also have a DFID international standards and 44% of the population are staff member seconded to the Islamic Development vulnerable to malnutrition and hunger. Easing restrictions Bank to build our understanding of what makes effective is not only essential for the people of Gaza, but firmly development. in Israel’s security interests. 365W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 366W

Syria There are 1,343 confiscation orders, made under the Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) 2002, within Kent. Of those orders, 1,062 (79%) have been paid in full of all granted confiscation Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for orders in Kent. International Development what assessment she has The total value of these orders is £57,271,448. The total made of the effectiveness of the UNRWA supported by amount recovered within Kent under the POCA legislation is British aid funds in directing aid to assist supported £22,689,241. Of the £34,582,207 outstanding, £21,945,696 (63%) Palestinian refugees who have fled Syria for Lebanon. relates to just nine confiscation orders. [R] [159286] Of the 1,343 confiscation orders, 32 (7%) have a total value of £3,953,976 where the time to pay has not expired and are not in Justine Greening: United Nations Relief Works Agency default of payment. (UNRWA) estimates that at present there are 57,000 HMCTS takes the issue of confiscation enforcement Palestinian refugees from Syria in Lebanon. These are very seriously. Over the last four consecutive years the additional to the 235,000 displaced Palestinian refugees amount recovered, including payments to victims of in Syria and 6,000 in Jordan. crime has increased year on year. HMCTS continually The UNRWA has provided cash assistance to more looks at new ways ensure that defendants pay their than 215,000 refugees in 2013 so far, as well as supplying confiscation orders in full, including securing the debt food and relief packages, and maintaining education, against any properties that the defendant may have. health and social services. To support the UNRWA’s work, the UK is providing £5 million to support over Driving Offences: Sentencing 350,000 newly-displaced Palestinian refugees in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, through food parcels and relief Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for items. Justice what assessment he has made of the maximum length of sentence for those who cause death while driving whilst disqualified; and if he will make a statement. [157428] JUSTICE Accountancy Jeremy Wright: The maximum penalty for causing death by disqualified driving is two years custody. We Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for keep all offences and penalties under review. That is Justice what the names, job titles, area of work, term of why we introduced the new offence of causing serious appointment and civil service equivalent grade are of injury by dangerous driving in the Legal Aid Sentencing personnel currently seconded to his Department from and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which carries a five year maximum prison sentence. This was commenced the big four accountancy firms. [159047] in December last year, and specifically targets those Mrs Grant: Staff are not seconded to the MOJ from cases where dangerous driving results in serious injury. the four organisations. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell Civil Proceedings (Chris Grayling), has asked the Sentencing Council to look at their guidelines on causing death by driving, Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and we are considering whether further changes may be how many litigants in person there were in civil cases in necessary to strengthen the law where driving offences have tragic consequences. each of the last three years. [157980]

Mrs Grant: The county court case management system Homicide used by the Ministry of Justice for statistical analysis holds information on the volume of cases progressing Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for through the county court system as well as the workload Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that sentencing of county courts in England and Wales. guidelines in cases of murder and partial defences to The case management system holds data regarding murder reflect the time taken for young witnesses to the legal representation of persons in civil cases, but the recover from psychological trauma. [158842] number of litigants in person there were in civil cases is not currently centrally collated. We are currently considering Jeremy Wright: Sentencing guidelines already provide options for collating this information. that the presence of others, for example children or the partner of the victim, during the commission of any Confiscation Orders: Kent offence is an aggravating factor. The sentence would, accordingly, be made more severe. Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of the declared available amount in confiscation Judicial Review orders made in Kent by Crown courts, how much has been recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice in (a) Dartford constituency and (b) Kent. [159007] how many and what type of claims for judicial review were made in each of the last three years. [157982] Mrs Grant: Details of confiscation orders are only recorded on databases at county area level, therefore we Mrs Grant: There were 11,359 applications for judicial are unable to provide specific information for Dartford. review lodged in 2011, 10,545 in 2010 and 9,092 in 2009. The details for Kent are as follows: The breakdown by type is shown in the following table: 367W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 368W

Judicial review applications in 2009 to 2011 Legal Aid forecast Total Total Total Expenditure (£ million) By nature of applications applications applications review lodged 2011 lodged 2010 lodged 2009 2013-14 1,836 2014-15 1,719 Civil 11,020 10,209 8,788 2015-16 1,679 Immigration/ 8,711 8,146 6,643 2016-17 1,666 Asylum Note: Other 2,309 2,063 2,145 Resource DEL Please also note that forecasts for future years remain Criminal 339 336 304 an estimate at this stage and the LAA has not yet agreed Immigration/ 23 29 13 its budget allocation for future years with the Ministry. Asylum Legal Aid remains demand led and is affected by a Other 316 307 291 number of factors outside the direct control of the Ministry within the agreed scope and eligibility criteria. This information was published by the Ministry of Justice in an ad hoc statistical release on 18 April 2013 Legal Aid Scheme: Birmingham (see following link). An update to this information will be provided in Court Statistics Quarterly on 20 June 2013: Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many firms received criminal legal aid payments in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ad-hoc- Birmingham, Hall Green constituency in each of the statistical-releases last three years. [157682]

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Chris Grayling: The Legal Aid Agency and its predecessor (1) how many responses were received by the Government’s the Legal Services Commission (pre 1 April 2013) records consultation on the Reform of Judicial Review; [157983] costs relating to firms by legal aid procurement area, which is broadly based on local authority boundaries. (2) what proportion of responses to the Government’s consultation on the Reform of Judicial Review were (a) The LAA does not record information by constituency in favour of the changes and (b) against the proposals. and therefore cannot provide the requested information [157960] specifically for the Hall Green constituency area. The information as follows is therefore for the Birmingham city council local authority area as the nearest proxy for Mrs Grant: The Government received 252 responses the information requested. to the engagement exercise ‘Judicial Review: proposals for reform’. A full breakdown of the responses is included Period Number of firms paid legal aid in the Government response which was published on 23 April 2013 and is available here: 2009-10 48 2010-11 52 https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/judicial- review-reform 2011-12 51

Legal Aid Scheme: Carmarthenshire Legal Aid Scheme Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice how many legal offices currently deal with legal what estimate he has made of the likely cost of legal aid aid cases in Carmarthenshire. [158142] in each of the next 10 years. [156695] Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency and its predecessor the Legal Services Commission (pre 1 April 2013) records Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice does not hold information relating to firms by legal aid procurement legal aid forecast information for the next 10 years. area, which is broadly based on local authority boundaries. However, it does hold projections showing legal aid In the Sir Gaerfyrddin/Carmarthenshire area there are forecast expenditure up to 2016-17. These forecasts 19 offices with an active crime or civil legal aid contract. include the impact of all agreed policy changes including those contained in the Legal Aid Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. Additionally, the Police Cautions forecast assumes that, apart from policy changes factored into the projections, fees remain fixed at current levels. Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Savings estimated through the impact of Legal Aid Justice if he will take steps to ensure that it is possible Transformation, which is currently in consultation, are for the public to scrutinise the use by police of not included. conditional cautions. [156544] The Ministry of Justice remains committed to providing Jeremy Wright: We are supporting the Association of value for money for the taxpayer, reducing the overall Chief Police Officers to develop retrospective local scrutiny cost base and making legal aid sustainable for the arrangements for out-of-court disposals including future. conditional cautions and are working with the senior The latest projections showing legal aid forecast judiciary to establish whether, and if so how, we harness expenditure up to 2016-17 are: the unique knowledge and experience of magistrates in 369W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 370W these arrangements. Police and Crime Commissioners Reoffenders can also hold police forces to account. On 3 April the Ministry of Justice announced a review of simple cautions Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for part of which is considering how to increase scrutiny Justice what the reoffending rate within 12 months of and accountability for the use of cautions; conclusions release was for people sentenced to periods of imprisonment with regard to simple cautions may well apply, where of less than 12 months in each year since 2005. [158373] applicable, to conditional cautions. Jeremy Wright: One year proven reoffending rates for Probation adult offenders in England and Wales released from custodial sentences of less than 12 months between 2000 and the 12 months ending June 2011 are published Jenny Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for in Table 19a of the Proven Reoffending Statistics Quarterly Justice how many and what proportion of offenders on Bulletin, which is available at: the critical public protection case notification scheme www.gov.uk/government/publications/proven-re-offending--2 are registered as medium-risk offenders by the Probation Service. [158159] RSPCA Jeremy Wright: As at 1 June 2013, there were two offenders registered with the Critical Public Protection Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Case (CPPC) Notification Scheme assessed as medium on how many occasions his Department has, following risk of harm. This represents less than 2% of the total an order of the Crown Court, paid money out of public number of offenders registered with the CPPC Scheme funds to (a) the RSPCA and (b) defendants prosecuted at that date. by the RSPCA in the last five years; and what amount While the CPPC Scheme is primarily for offenders was paid on each such occasion. [157871] who are assessed as presenting the highest risk of serious harm, Probation Trusts may also register offenders with Mrs Grant: The Legal Aid Agency (LAA) does not the Scheme where those offenders have a particularly record whether the prosecuting authority is the RSPCA. high profile and yet are not assessed as presenting a I can confirm that the LAA does not fund prosecutions, very high risk of serious harm. including those carried out by the RSPCA. All offenders registered with the CPPC Scheme are managed under the statutory Multi-Agency Public Salvation Army Protection Arrangements and, therefore, will be managed by the new public sector Probation Service. Mrs Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Where Members have signed the relevant agreement, how much funding was (a) made available and (b) they will be notified when an offender registered with paid to the Salvation Army Victim Support Scheme in the CPPC Scheme has begun a period of statutory (i) 2011-12 and (ii) 2012-13; and whether the funding probation supervision within their constituencies, usually commitment is open-ended. [155662] on release from custody. The notification letter provides details of the risk management plan for each offender. Mrs Grant: The Government-funded support service for adult victims of human trafficking in England and Wales is jointly-funded by the Ministry of Justice and Public Sector: Information the Home Office. The Government is committed to providing a vital service to victims of this terrible crime. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The following table details the allocated and actual whether his Department plans to require public sector funding provided to The Salvation Army. organisations to take an audit from the Information Commissioner. [158814] £ million 2011-12 2012-13

Mrs Grant: The Information Commissioner already Allocated 1.575 2.1 has powers under existing legislation to conduct audits Actual 1.5 3 of public sector organisations. Under section 51 (7) of the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA), the Information As the Government’s victim arrangements comply Commissioner has the power, with the consent of the with standards set by the Council of Europe Convention data controller, to conduct audits of the processing of on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings, The personal data by an organisation in order to establish Salvation Army delivers support to victims based on whether that processing follows good practice. their individual needs. Since the start of the contract in In addition, the Government has recently consulted July 2011, there has been significant increase in the on extending the powers of the Information Commissioner number of referrals to The Salvation Army for support to carry out non-consensual audits of NHS bodies’ and accommodation. The reasons for this include improved compliance with the data protection principles under front-line professionals’ awareness and identification of Section 41A of the DPA. The consultation closed on 17 trafficking victims. As a result, placing a limit on the May. The Ministry of Justice is now considering the amount of funding providing would be unlawful. The responses to the consultation and will publish a response Ministry of Justice is therefore responsible for driving within three months of the close of the consultation an efficient and high quality service through robust exercise. contractual arrangements. 371W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 372W

Unpaid Fines Mr Hoban: I can confirm that DWP has no personnel currently seconded to DWP from Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Deloitte, Ernst and Young or KPMG. Justice what the value of outstanding court costs, compensation and fines made against defendants in the magistrates court is; and how many defendants have Benefits: Bassetlaw been committed to prison for non-payment of court costs, compensation and fines in the last year for which figures are available. [159095] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many people in Bassetlaw Mrs Grant: The total amount of fines, costs and constituency receive employment and support allowance compensation outstanding as at the end of December as a result of being unable work owing to (a) drug and 2012 (latest period for which data are available) is set (b) alcohol addiction; [158925] out in the following table: (2) how many people in Bassetlaw constituency claim incapacity benefit as a result of being unable to work Total amount outstanding as at owing to drug and or alcohol addiction; [158972] Imposition type the end of December 2012 (£) (3) how many people currently receive employment Fines 376,664,000 support allowance and are also defined as suffering Costs 128,070,000 from an addiction to either drugs or alcohol, in each Compensation 72,706,000 parliamentary constituency. [159028] Note: Figures rounded to nearest 1,000 The amounts quoted include fines, costs and Mr Hoban: Entitlement to employment and support compensation imposed in the magistrates and Crown allowance (ESA) is not based on an individual’s diagnosis courts and it is not possible to separate these amounts. or the nature of their particular disabling condition, but The amounts outstanding can include impositions made rather on the way that condition limits their ability to at anytime and include amounts which are not yet due function. The work capability assessment assesses the to be paid or the balance on accounts that are being effects of a person’s condition on their ability to carry paid by instalments. out a number of everyday activities. When an offender is allowed to pay by instalments In the case of someone with drug or alcohol dependency, payments are allocated in the order of compensation, needs may arise by way of a physical or mental complication victim surcharge, costs and then fines. caused by drugs or alcohol. Many people with drug or In the period April 2012 to December 2012 there alcohol dependence have an underlying psychiatric illness. were 769 offenders committed to prison for non payment Drug or alcohol dependency does not of itself confer of financial impositions. entitlement to incapacity benefits. HMCTS takes the issue of fine enforcement very Incapacity benefit (IB) and severe disablement allowance seriously.Over recent years there has been an improvement (SDA) have been replaced by ESA for new claimants in the total collection of financial penalties resulting in since October 2008 and we are reassessing around a total of £279 million being collected against fines and 1.5 million old-style incapacity benefits claimants to see related impositions in 2011-12. if they are fit for work or are eligible for ESA. The full roll-out of the incapacity benefit reassessment exercise began nationally on 4 April 2011 and is expected to be WOMEN AND EQUALITIES completed by April 2014. Women’s Business Council A spreadsheet showing ESA and IB/SDA claimants, in aggregate, with a main disabling condition of either Mr Umunna: To ask the Minister for Women and alcoholism or drug abuse, for all parliamentary Equalities on which occasions the Women’s Business constituencies, will be placed in the Library. Council has met since it was initiated. [158328] The available information on those receiving ESA Jo Swinson: The Women’s Council is focused on how and IB/SDA with a main disabling condition of alcoholism to maximise women’s contribution to UK economic or drug abuse for Bassetlaw parliamentary constituency growth. Since its establishment in May 2012, the full is given in the following table: Women’s Business Council has met formally on a Employment and support allowance (ESA) and incapacity benefit/ bi-monthly basis, seven times in total. In addition there severe disablement allowance (IB/SDA) claimants, with a main has been a range of sub-committee meetings. The council’s disabling condition of alcoholism or drug abuse, in Bassetlaw inaugural report was published on 4 June 2013. parliamentary constituency—November 2012 Number Bassetlaw WORK AND PENSIONS constituency All diagnoses Alcoholism Drug abuse Accountancy ESA 2,670 60 60 IB/SDA 2,100 20 20 Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Notes: Work and Pensions what the names, job titles, area of 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. work, term of appointment and civil service equivalent 2. The medical condition recorded on the claim form does not itself grade are of personnel currently seconded to his confer entitlement to incapacity benefit or employment support allowance. Department from the big four accountancy firms. Source: DWP Information Governance and Security Directorate 100% WPLS [159053] 373W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 374W

The table shows claimants where alcoholism or drug Mr Hoban: The Department has no plans to publish abuse was recorded as the main health condition so may data on transport costs incurred by claimants of jobseeker’s not include some claimants with a drug or alcohol allowance at the present time. addiction as well as another more prominent condition.

Employment and Support Allowance Pensions

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and and Pensions what funding his Department has allocated Pensions how many people in each parliamentary to offering treatment to (a) drug and (b) alcohol-related constituency are members of (a) occupational and (b) employment and support allowance claimants when non-occupational private pension schemes; and what universal credit is introduced in October 2013. [158927] the average total pensions savings held by people in each constituency is. [159344] Mr Hoban: No funding has been allocated by my Department for offering treatment to (a) drug and (b) Steve Webb: The information requested is not readily alcohol-related employment and support allowance available and has not previously been published as claimants when universal credit is introduced in October official statistics. We will consider alongside the Office 2013. for National Statistics whether it is feasible to produce Food Banks the statistics accurately, and within the disproportionate cost limit. If so, we will issue them in an official statistics Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for release in accordance with the Code of Practice for Work and Pensions if he will commission an independent Official Statistics. review of the use of food banks in (a) Greater London Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) the UK. [158930] Work and Pensions what recent discussions he has had (a) (b) Mr Hoban: Food banks are not part of Government with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and policy and, as such, the Department for Work and pension companies, to ensure all pension companies Pensions does not hold or collect information on them. provide trivial commutation of pension pots; what The Department has no plans to review the use of food assessment he has made of the number of pension banks funds which are not providing trivial commutation to policyholders; and if he will bring forward proposals to DEFRA has commissioned a research to review evidence make the offer of trivial commutation to policyholders on the landscape of food provision and access in the compulsory. [159411] UK. The work comprises a short research project assessing publicly available evidence on the provision of food aid Steve Webb: DWP Ministers have had no such in the UK. The conclusions of this work will be available discussions as trivial commutation is a matter for Treasury. in the summer and published on the Government’s website. Habitual Residence Test Scotland

Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral answer of 20 May and Pensions how many staff of his Department are 2013, Official Report, column 890, on benefits: immigration, located in Scotland; and how many such staff work on in what ways the Government is strengthening the services provided to residents of England and Wales. habitual residence test; and when the strengthened test [158998] will be operative. [159251] Mr Hoban: At 31 March 2013 the number of employees Mr Hoban: As announced by the Prime Minister on of the Department located in Scotland was 11,575. This 25 March 2013 the Department is currently working on number equates to 10,318 full-time equivalents. strengthening the Habitual Residence Test. The Department delivers a number of services on a This will increase the range and depth of evidence nationwide network basis. It is therefore not possible to collected from claimants to improve decision making; breakdown the number of employees located in Scotland, while ensuring that the test remains within existing legal who provide services to residents in England and Wales. parameters. The strengthened question set will be supported by an IT system which will tailor the questions asked to individual circumstances. Social Security Benefits Building work on the IT design has started and will be completed before the end of 2013. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will make an assessment of the effect of Jobseeker’s Allowance errors in payment of claims for (a) employment and support allowance, (b) jobseeker’s allowance, (c) Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for housing benefit and (d) income support on weekly Work and Pensions if he will publish data on the average household disposable income in each region transport costs incurred by claimants of jobseeker’s and constituent part of the UK in the financial years allowance in each (a) age group and (b) parliamentary (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13. constituency. [159349] [157913] 375W Written Answers12 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 376W

Mr Hoban: Between 2009 and 2013 (provisional error remained at 0.6% and the amount underpaid due estimates), the overall amount of benefits overpaid due to official error remained at 0.3%. to claimant error increased from 0.8% to 0.9% and the amount overpaid due to official error reduced from The specific figures for the benefits listed are shown 0.6% to 0.4%. in the following table: Between 2009 and 2013 (provisional estimates), the overall amount of benefits underpaid due to claimant

2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 2012/132 % £ million % £ million % £ million % £ million

ESA1 Overpaid—Official n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 1.1 70 error Overpaid—Customer n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a error Underpaid—Official n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0.9 60 error Underpaid—Official n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a error JSA Overpaid—Official 1.8 80 2.3 100 1.1 50 0.7 40 error Overpaid—Customer 0.4 20 0.4 20 0.6 30 0.6 30 error Underpaid—Official 0.4 20 0.3 10 0.1 10 0.1 10 error Underpaid—Customer 0.2 10 0.1 0 0.2 10 0.2 10 error HB Overpaid—Official 0.7 140 0.4 90 0.6 130 0.6 130 error Overpaid—Customer 2.8 560 2.8 590 2.8 650 3.3 790 error Underpaid—Official 0.4 80 0.2 50 0.3 70 0.3 60 error Underpaid—Customer 1.1 220 1.0 220 1.1 240 1.0 240 error IS Overpaid—Official 1.4 120 0.6 50 0.7 50 0.7 40 error Overpaid—Customer 1.5 130 1.0 80 1.2 80 1.3 70 error Underpaid—Official 0.6 50 0.5 40 0.4 30 0.4 20 error Underpaid—Customer 0.5 40 0.6 40 0.5 40 0.6 30 error 1 ESA overpayments and underpayments due to official error were measured in 2012/13 for the first time 2 Provisional Note: Figures rounded to nearest £10 million

These figures are available at the Great Britain level from the Department of Health and the Department only. The information on the effect on weekly average for Education, on a number of occasions to discuss the household disposable income is not available. treatment of passported benefits under universal credit. We are aware of the importance of passported benefits Universal Credit for those families that receive them and we continue to work closely across Government to ensure that passported Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and benefits remain available to those families that need Pensions (1) how many meetings he has had with ministerial them the most. colleagues in (a) the Department of Health and (b) the Department for Education on the treatment of passported Vacancies: Internet benefits under universal credit; [159317] (2) how many meetings he has had with Ministers Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and officials in (a) the Department of Health and (b) and Pensions how many employers are registered with the Department for Education on the treatment of Universal Jobmatch. [159318] passported benefits under universal credit. [159511] Mr Hoban: The number of employer accounts created Mr Hoban: The Minister for Welfare Reform has met on the Universal Jobmatch service between go-live on with ministerial colleagues and officials, including those 19 November 2012 and 31 May 2013 is 418,427. 1MC Ministerial Corrections12 JUNE 2013 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

engagement with my Department. We are working closely Ministerial Correction to ensure that the green deal will push through the roll-out of carbon monoxide detectors. Wednesday 12 June 2013 On smart meters, we now have what we believe to be the most ambitious programme in Europe, beginning in earnest in 2014 and completing by 2019. It is very ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE exciting and very radical. Energy Bills [Official Report, 6 June 2013, Vol. 563, c. 1645.] The following is the answer given by the Minister of Letter of correction from Gregory Barker: State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the An error has been identified in the oral answer given right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), on 6 June 2013 to the hon. Member for Huddersfield to a question from the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). (Mr Sheerman) during Energy and Climate Change Question Time on 6 June 2013. The correct answer should have been:

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Gregory Barker: First, on carbon monoxide detectors, Does the Minister agree that smart metering gives the the hon. Gentleman is the champion in this House of consumer—the householder—real information on how that very important technology and I thank him for his much energy they are using? How quickly can we get engagement with my Department. We are working closely smart metering into every home in Britain, hopefully to ensure that the green deal will push through the along with a carbon monoxide detector that will save roll-out of carbon monoxide detectors. people’s lives? On smart meters, we now have what we believe to be Gregory Barker: First, on carbon monoxide detectors, the most ambitious programme in Europe, beginning in the hon. Gentleman is the champion in this House of earnest in the autumn of 2015 and completing by end that very important technology and I thank him for his 2020. It is very exciting and very radical.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 321 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Official Development Assistance...... 325 Topical Questions ...... 328 Pakistan ...... 327 West Bank...... 328 Spending Priorities...... 326 Syria...... 323 PRIME MINISTER ...... 330 Tax Avoidance ...... 321 Engagements...... 330 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 12 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 7WS TREASURY ...... 8WS Draft Consumer Rights Bill ...... 7WS Asset Protection Agency ...... 8WS Credit Union Maximum Interest Rate Cap...... 8WS TRANSPORT ...... 9WS Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee.. 9WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 322W EDUCATION—continued Accountancy...... 322W Headteachers: Resignations ...... 339W Employment: Females...... 321W Health...... 341W Higher Education: North East ...... 322W National Curriculum Tests...... 342W Regional Growth Fund ...... 323W PricewaterhouseCoopers...... 341W Street Trading ...... 323W Priority School Building Programme ...... 341W Pupil Exclusions: Kent...... 342W CABINET OFFICE...... 318W Schools: Assessments ...... 345W Capita ...... 318W Stationery ...... 345W Childbirth ...... 319W Teachers: Training...... 346W Safety...... 320W Trade Unions ...... 347W Training: Higher Education ...... 348W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 336W Accountancy...... 336W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 315W Emergency Services...... 337W Energy...... 315W Fire Services...... 337W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 316W Non-domestic Rates...... 337W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 316W Street Trading ...... 338W Renewable Energy: Corby ...... 317W Wind Power: Tees Valley ...... 317W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 338W Radio Frequencies ...... 338W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Skills Investment Fund ...... 338W AFFAIRS...... 348W Sports ...... 339W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 348W Dangerous Dogs ...... 349W DEFENCE...... 323W Environment ...... 349W Accountancy...... 323W Hydrofluorocarbons ...... 349W Africa...... 323W Marine Conservation Zones...... 350W Armed Forces: Disciplinary Proceedings...... 324W Marine Protected Areas ...... 351W Armed Forces: Mental Health ...... 324W Ragwort: Shropshire ...... 351W Joint Forces Command ...... 325W World Environment Day ...... 352W Scotland...... 325W Service Personnel and Veterans Agency ...... 325W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 352W Territorial Army ...... 326W Bahrain ...... 352W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 326W Capita ...... 352W Colombia ...... 353W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 318W Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights...... 353W Lobbying...... 318W Guinea ...... 353W India ...... 353W EDUCATION...... 339W Legal Costs ...... 354W Children in Care...... 339W Libya...... 355W GCSE ...... 340W Occupied Territories...... 355W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— JUSTICE...... 365W continued Accountancy...... 365W Occupied Territories...... 355W Civil Proceedings...... 365W Confiscation Orders: Kent ...... 365W Driving Offences: Sentencing ...... 366W HEALTH...... 356W Homicide ...... 366W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 356W Judicial Review ...... 366W Accident and Emergency Departments: Dental Legal Aid Scheme ...... 367W Services ...... 356W Legal Aid Scheme: Birmingham ...... 368W Accountancy...... 357W Legal Aid Scheme: Carmarthenshire...... 368W Cancer ...... 357W Police Cautions ...... 368W Chronic Illnesses and Disability ...... 358W Probation ...... 369W Diabetes ...... 358W Public Sector: Information...... 369W Epilepsy ...... 359W Reoffenders...... 370W General Practitioners ...... 359W RSPCA ...... 370W Health...... 360W Salvation Army...... 370W Midwives...... 361W Unpaid Fines ...... 371W NHS 111 ...... 361W NHS: Databases...... 362W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 314W NHS Walk-in Centres ...... 362W Fuels: Tax Evasion...... 314W Prescriptions ...... 362W Parades Commission...... 315W Strokes ...... 363W TRANSPORT ...... 313W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 329W Blue Badge Scheme...... 313W Asylum ...... 329W Rail Franchise Advisory Panel ...... 313W Asylum: Milton Keynes ...... 329W Roads: Safety ...... 313W Asylum: Young People...... 330W Correspondence ...... 330W TREASURY ...... 328W Cybercrime ...... 330W Banks: Loans ...... 328W Entry Clearances...... 331W Revenue and Customs...... 328W Hooliganism: Football ...... 331W Stationery ...... 329W Human Trafficking ...... 332W Immigrants: English Language ...... 332W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 371W Immigration...... 333W Women’s Business Council ...... 371W Legal Costs ...... 334W Radicalism ...... 335W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 371W Regulation ...... 335W Accountancy...... 371W Travel ...... 336W Benefits: Bassetlaw...... 372W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 373W Food Banks...... 373W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 363W Habitual Residence Test...... 373W Gulf States...... 363W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 373W Modern-day Slavery...... 364W Pensions...... 374W Palestinians ...... 364W Scotland...... 374W Pension Payments: Zimbabwe ...... 364W Social Security Benefits...... 374W Rana Plaza Building ...... 364W Universal Credit...... 375W Syria...... 365W Vacancies: Internet...... 376W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 12 June 2013

Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1MC Energy Bills...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 19 June 2013

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 564 Wednesday No. 16 12 June 2013

CONTENTS

Wednesday 12 June 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 321] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Children’s Heart Surgery [Col. 343] statement—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)

Opposition Day [2nd allotted day] Protecting Children Online [Col. 360] Motion—(Helen Goodman)—on a Division, negatived

EU Police, Justice and Home Affairs [Col. 412] Motion—(Yvette Cooper)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mrs May)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Work Capability Assessments [Col. 456] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Tribunals and Inquiries [Col. 465] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Rakhine and Kachin State (Human Rights) [Col. 71WH] Media Sexism [Col. 94WH] Financial Products (Mis-selling) [Col. 104WH] In Amenas Hostages [Col. 112WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 313W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]