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Interview with Taylor Pensoneau # ISG-A-L-2009-007 Interview # 4: April 17, 2009 Interviewer: Mark Depue

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Interview with Taylor Pensoneau # ISG-A-L-2009-007 Interview # 4: April 17, 2009 Interviewer: Mark Depue Interview with Taylor Pensoneau # ISG-A-L-2009-007 Interview # 4: April 17, 2009 Interviewer: Mark DePue The following material can be used for educational and other non-commercial purposes without the written permission of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library. “Fair use” criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. These materials are not to be deposited in other repositories, nor used for resale or commercial purposes without the authorization from the Audio-Visual Curator at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library, 112 N. 6th Street, Springfield, Illinois 62701. Telephone (217) 785-7955 Note to the Reader: Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that this is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, interviewee and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views expressed therein. We leave these for the reader to judge. DePue: Today is Friday, April 17, 2009. My name is Mark DePue. I’m a volunteer with the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library. This is part of a continuing series of interviews I’ve been having with Taylor Pensoneau. Good morning, Taylor. Pensoneau: Good morning, Mark. DePue: To further introduce this, I think this is perhaps the fourth session I’ve had. [This was the fourth day that they met. This was the seventh session.] Pensoneau: I think number four. DePue: Of course, this is part of the overall project on Jim Edgar’s administration. But today we get to talk about Jim Edgar’s predecessor, Jim Thompson. Big Jim Thompson, right? Pensoneau: Right. (chuckle) DePue: We finished off last time after a fascinating discussion on Dan Walker. Of course, we expect nothing less, talking to Walker’s biographer (Pensoneau chuckles). You know, I keep hearing stories from you that we didn’t get recorded, either, so I’ll have to figure out how to incorporate those somewhere down the road. But I know that we ended last time’s discussion, I believe, with a discussion about Walker’s losing in the primary in ‘76. Pensoneau: Correct. Taylor Pensoneau Interview # ISG-A-L-2009-07 DePue: So let’s pick it up from there, because the person who won the primary, of course, was Michael Howlett. Pensoneau: Right. DePue: Maybe let’s take a step back and let’s talk a little about Jim Thompson’s background before we get there, if you can. What did you know at the time, or what do you recall, about the things that propelled him onto the political scene? That caused him to be a credible candidate? Pensoneau: We’re talking about Thompson? DePue: A credible candidate. Well, 1976. Pensoneau: I think Thompson’s ambitions were centered in the political world from early on, as I understood it. I had actually heard of Thompson when for, I think a short period, he had some role, I think, in the chain of command under Illinois Attorney General William J. Scott, I believe. I did not know Thompson then. I met Thompson personally back in – I think it would have been, I’m going to say – 1973 or ‘74 when he was United States Attorney in Chicago. Excuse me. He was doing some investigation on various political figures that involved some downstate individuals. He was always investigating major political figures. That was his hallmark as U. S. Attorney in Chicago. But I remember I interviewed him about some downstate political figures that reportedly were under the microscope in his continuing investigation. I think that was in 1973 and 1974. I found him to be very down-to-earth and relaxed in the interview, which I thought a little unusual in terms of my impression of the United States Attorneys, because they were, I thought, pretty formal and high-powered. Thompson certainly was high-powered, don’t get me wrong, but he was awfully relaxed and conversant with me and I was rather impressed with his almost informal style, even though he was the U. S. Attorney in Chicago. DePue: When you first met him had he declared his interest in running for Governor? Pensoneau: No, not publically. I’m sure of that. He may have entertained such an ambition privately, but he had not declared such publically. No, the answer is no. DePue: Okay. Anything else that struck you about him? Pensoneau: Well, I was struck by his extremely casual, informal attitude or personality. At the time, I was the Illinois political writer for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch . He made me feel very relaxed. It was almost like an informal situation. Because when you interviewed federal officials, if they were not up-tight, they always said, Well, I’m really limited on what I can talk about. I mean, federal officials, in terms of interviews by newspaper reporters, were always generally more formal and hesitant than state officials. Okay? It was always 2 Taylor Pensoneau Interview # ISG-A-L-2009-07 like they had a number of restrictions placed upon them of what they could go into or what they could talk about. Thompson was a different animal in that regard. It was like, Ask me anything you want to know. I remember he sat in a chair and put his feet up on a desk and it was like, Fire away; what do you want to know about my investigations? Of course, at that time, he was already a super-accomplished prosecutor because he had put Otto Kerner away. He had put umpteen captains and members of the Daley machine away. And he had established, not just a big name in Chicago, but within the prosecutorial community he was a big name nationally. So, in view of that, as I met him I was struck by his informality the first time I sat down with him. He was still U. S. Attorney in Chicago. I was the only political writer for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch . I really don’t recall specifically what got me in to see him in Chicago when he was still U. S. Attorney, but the conversation veered off into downstate political figures and that’s when he made some comments about the purview of one or more of his investigations encompassing some downstate political figures as well as the normal Chicago targets. DePue: Yes Pensoneau: And I remember specifically one was then a potent Democrat in the Illinois House, Clyde Choate from Anna. I’m sure Choate was never indicted. But Thompson was quite giving with me in his acknowledging Choate was under investigation. I can’t remember exactly for what, but, as I recall, he went pretty far, and I thought that was very unusual. Well, I wrote an article two days later back in my bureau office in Springfield in the Illinois State House. I wrote an article on Thompson and on the Thompson interview, and in there I mentioned a few of the names he had freely dished out to me about individuals under investigation by the federal prosecutor’s office in Chicago. And I remember that I mentioned Choate, and Choate threw a fit with me when I mentioned his name. I mean, Choate said, “The guy is just politically ambitious. Why he would give you my name?” Because I knew Choate. DePue: Yeah Pensoneau: Choate was a downstate Democratic House leader. I remember Choate was quite upset with me, not Thompson. And I then went through a two or three year period when Choate wouldn’t talk to me. (DePue laughs) But I will say that changed before I left the Post-Dispatch . I should point that out. But I remember, I mentioned Choate and it was a vague reference. Choate was very upset that in this long interpretive piece I wrote about Thompson, that Choate was mentioned and Choate didn’t like it. I remember that. And really let me know it. DePue: Well if my math is right here, this is possibly the time that Choate was actually the Democratic minority leader in the house. 3 Taylor Pensoneau Interview # ISG-A-L-2009-07 Pensoneau: Yes, I think it was. DePue: 1973-‘74. Pensoneau: I believe this was in 1973. The answer is, I believe you’re right. DePue: So Thompson at the time would have been riding the wave of all of the juicy… Maybe that’s the wrong word to use, but… Pensoneau: No, exactly the word. DePue: You mentioned Otto Kerner. Pensoneau: Yes DePue: And Kerner went down. Pensoneau: He had put Kerner away by then. DePue: Theodore Isaacs? Pensoneau: Yeah. Whatever he did to Isaacs was done by then. DePue: And how about Thomas Keane who was one of Daley’s main aldermen from Chicago. Pensoneau: I know he put Keane away. I don’t recall if he’d done it yet by then. He probably had. I just was, he’d done the job on Kerner and Isaacs. I know we were past that stage. DePue: Another one of his scalps, if you will, would have been Cook County Clerk, former Illinois treasurer, as well, Edward Barrett. Pensoneau: Yeah. Yeah. I remember the Barrett thing. Because of his age at the time, I don’t think Barrett actually ever went to prison, but Thompson did successfully, in a prosecutorial way, bring him down. Barrett was an interesting figure from the past. He had held, I think more than one state office. DePue: Yeah. I had Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer.
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