COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

THURSDAY, 12 MARCH 1998

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SIXTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

THURSDAY, 12 MARCH

Petitions— Higher Education Contribution Scheme ...... 889 Repatriation Benefits ...... 889 Notices of Motion— Regulations and Ordinances Committee ...... 889 East Timor ...... 889 Regulations and Ordinances Committee ...... 890 Senior Citizens Week ...... 890 Order of Business— Regulations: Workplace Relations ...... 891 Economics References Committee ...... 891 Government Business ...... 891 General Business ...... 891 Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legislation Committee ...... 891 Israel ...... 891 Committees— Privileges Committee ...... 891 Membership ...... 891 Alternative and Complementary Medicines ...... 891 Order of Business— TAFE Funding ...... 892 Employment, Education and Training References Committee ...... 892 Common Youth Allowance ...... 892 Budget 1997-98— Additional Information ...... 892 Committtees— Publications Committee—Report ...... 892 Regulations and Ordinances Committee—Statement ...... 892 Senators’ Interests Committee ...... 895 Senators’ Interest Committee—Procedural Rules ...... 895 Order of Business— Industrial Relations and Unemployment Policies ...... 896 Committees— Public Accounts Committee—Reports ...... 896 National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1997, National Transmission Network Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1997— Report of Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legislation Committee ...... 898 Higher Education Legislation Amendment Bill 1997, Customs and Excise Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 1998, Crimes (Superannuation Benefits) Amendment Bill 1998, Australian Capital Territory (Planning and Land Management) Amendment Bill 1997, Law Officers Amendment Bill 1997— First Reading ...... 898 Second Reading ...... 899 Social Security Legislation Amendment (Youth Allowance) Bill 1997— In Committee ...... 905 Adoption of Report ...... 933 Native Title Legislation ...... 933 NRS Levy Imposition Bill 1997 ...... 935 Telecommunications Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997— Second Reading ...... 935 National Environment Protection Measures (Implementation) Bill 1997— Report of the Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legislation Committee ...... 936 Parliamentary Service Bill 1997 [No. 2]— CONTENTS—continued

First Reading ...... 937 Second Reading ...... 937 Public Service Bill 1997 [No. 2] ...... 938 Public Employment (Consequential and Transitional) Amendment Bill 1997 [No. 2]— First Reading ...... 938 Second Reading ...... 938 Ministerial Arrangements ...... 942 Questions Without Notice— Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 942 Employment ...... 943 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 944 Waterfront Reform ...... 946 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 947 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 948 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 949 Native Title ...... 950 Ministerial Code of Conduct ...... 951 Mr Christopher Skase ...... 953 Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 954 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Minister for Resources and Energy ...... 955 Notices of Motion— Superannuation Committee ...... 961 Documents— Work of Committees ...... 961 Committees— Membership ...... 961 Industrial Relations and Employment Policies ...... 961 Documents— Department of Industrial Relations ...... 992 Committees— Community Affairs References Committee—Report ...... 994 Legal and Constitutional References Committee—Report ...... 994 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 999 Community Affairs References Committee —Meeting ...... 1001 Parliamentary Delegation to Venezuela and The United States of America 1001 Adjournment— Pelham Security ...... 1003 Film Industry ...... 1004 Mr Edgar Williams ...... 1007 Mr Maurie Rudd ...... 1007 Senator Bolkus ...... 1008 Diesel Fuel Rebate ...... 1009 Documents— Tabling ...... 1011 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 1011 Questions On Notice— Electromagnetic Radiation—(Question No. 1008) ...... 1012 Australian Grand Prix: Tobacco Advertising—(Question No. 1067) . . 1013 SENATE 889

Thursday, 12 March 1998 departments are still resorting to old, and inventing new excuses, to deny the above 3 points. Your petitioners therefore request that the Senate acts to help remove the injustice of 40 years and The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. fully recognise R.A.N. service by providing the Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., same recognition and benefits for that service. The and read prayers. cost will be minuscule, being mainly a transfer of pensions from ‘age’ as paid by the Department of PETITIONS Social Security, to ‘service’ pensions, paid by the The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for Department of Veterans’ Affairs. presentation as follows: by Senator Forshaw (from 34 citizens). Higher Education Contribution Scheme Petitions received. To the Honourable the President and Members of NOTICES OF MOTION the Senate assembled in Parliament. The petition of certain citizens draws the atten- Regulations and Ordinances Committee tion of the House to the damaging impact of the Senator O’CHEE (Queensland)—Pursuant Government’s changes to post-secondary education. Upfront undergraduate fees; increased HECS fees to notice given at the last day of sitting and and charges; cuts to student places; cuts to Austudy on behalf of the Standing Committee on and Abstudy and decreased Commonwealth funding Regulations and Ordinances, I now withdraw for universities are denying students fair access to business of the Senate notices of motion Nos university education. Your petitioners therefore ask 1 and 2 standing in my name for the next day the House to return post-secondary education to a of sitting. system which is fair and accessible for Australians. by Senator Forshaw (from 33 citizens). East Timor Repatriation Benefits Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of To the Honourable the President and Members of sitting, I shall move: the Senate assembled in Parliament: That the Senate— This petition of certain citizens of Australia, draws to the attention of the Senate the fact that (a) notes: members of the Royal Australian Navy who served (i) the endorsement by the Senate of the in Malaya between 1955 and 1960 are still the only United Nations (UN) Commission on Australians, sent overseas on active service, whose Human Rights Resolution 1997/63 on service has not been recognised in three important East Timor in November 1997, areas: (ii) the commission will sit from 16 March to 1. R.A.N. casualties are not yet included on the 24 April 1998 in Geneva and will again Roll of Honour at the Australian War Memorial consider a European Union draft resolu- alongside Army and R.A.A.F. casualties; tion on human rights in Indonesia/East 2. R.A.N. service has not yet been recognised Timor, with the visible signs of service to Australia; the (iii) the recommendations of Resolution Returned from Active Service Badge and the Naval 1997/63 included clarification of the Dili campaign medal; and massacre, release of political prisoners, 3. R.A.N. service is still not acknowledged as access to East Timor for human rights eligible service for the Australian Service Pension, organisations, progress on the establish- while service by Commonwealth and allied veterans ment of a UN human rights office in from 55 other countries is. Jakarta and cooperation with special Members of the Army and R.A.A.F. who served rapporteurs, and during the same period in Malaya had their service (iv) the Indonesian Government has not im- fully recognised 24 hours after arriving in Malaya. plemented any of the recommendations of In the 1997 Budget the Government partly Resolution 1997/63 and has cut off nego- recognised that R.A.N. service was ‘operational’ tiations with the High Commissioner for and accepted responsibility for disabilities resulting Human Rights on the establishment of a from that service. Those affected appreciate the human rights office in Jakarta; and belated, partial recognition. However, government (b) calls on the Australian Government to: 890 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

(i) give support to the principle of a further review. Subregulation 5M(6), however, provides motion on Indonesia at the 54th session that a request for a review of the Secretary’s of the commission, and decision does not affect the operation of that (ii) urgently press the Indonesian Government decision. Neither rr.5K or 5L prevent the Secretary to implement Resolution 1997/63 and to from issuing a notice of variation or withdrawal resume negotiations with the UN High with immediate effect, which could have unfair Commissioner for Human Rights regard- financial implications for the intending advertiser ing the establishment of a human rights of the relevant product. office in Jakarta. Regulation 19 provides for the fees that are to be charged on an application for approval of an Regulations and Ordinances Committee advertisement, but the Explanatory Statement does Senator O’CHEE (Queensland)—On not indicate the basis on which those fees have behalf of the Standing Committee on Regula- been set. Furthermore, paragraph (c) of the regula- tions and Ordinances, I give notice, that 15 tion refers to an advertorial, which is presumably something other than an advertisement, and for sitting days after today, I shall move: which there is no warrant in the regulations for That the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amend- charging fees since advertorials do not need ment), as contained in Statutory Rules 1997 No. approval under r.5F. 400 and made under the Therapeutic Goods Act Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment) 1989 be disallowed. Statutory Rules 1997 No 401 That the Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amend- ment), as contained in Statutory Rules 1997 No. These Regulations prohibit anyone from claiming 401 and made under the Therapeutic Goods Act that any therapeutic goods are drug free. 1989, be disallowed. The two sets of regulations provide for important I seek leave to make a short statement about matters affecting the general administration of the committee’s concerns with these regula- therapeutic goods. These appear to be of sufficient tions. importance that it may be more appropriate to address them through amendment of the enabling Leave granted. Act, where the changes would be subject to full Senator O’CHEE—I thank the Senate. The parliamentary debate. committee’s concerns with these regulations Senior Citizens Week include an unclear definition, an unclear provision, an unfair provision and matters Senator PATTERSON (Victoria)—I give which may be more appropriate for parlia- notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall mentary enactment. I seek leave to incorpo- move: rate in Hansard a short summary of the That the Senate— matters raised by the committee. (a) notes that: Leave granted. (i) the week beginning 15 March 1998 is The summary read as follows— Seniors Week in Victoria and New South Therapeutic Goods Regulations (Amendment) Wales, Statutory Rules 1997 No 400 (ii) Seniors Week will be celebrated in all other States and Territories later in 1998, These Regulations establish a pre-clearance scheme and for advertisements to be published in mainstream print media about non-prescription drugs, herbal (iii) the theme for the week is ‘Age of remedies and the like. Discovery’; The definition of mainstream media in r.5B is (b) commends the theme as acknowledging the unclear. For one thing, it refers to any magazine or potential of older citizens to learn and newspaper for consumers but does not indicate explore new ideas and activities, which is what class of person is included within the notion too often denigrated by the outdated stereo- of consumers. The definition might also be regard- types of ageing employed by the main- ed as unnecessarily broad. stream media; New rr.5K and 5L permit the Secretary to vary the (c) recognises the important opportunity Seniors conditions of an approval, or to withdraw an Week provides to reflect on the achieve- approval. The Committee notes that those decisions ments and contributions older Australians are subject to review by ministerial and AAT make to our community; and Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 891

(d) commends all State and Territory Govern- Israel ments for their commitment to Seniors Week and calls on them to support the Year Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the of Older Australians in 1999. request of Senator Reynolds) agreed to: ORDER OF BUSINESS That general business notice of motion No. 984 standing in the name of Senator Reynolds for Regulations: Workplace Relations today, relating to Israel’s 50 Year Jubilee release of prisoners, be postponed till the next day of Motion (by Senator Carr) agreed to: sitting. That business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1 standing in the name of Senator Carr for today, COMMITTEES relating to the disallowance of the Workplace Relations Regulations (Amendment) as contained Privileges Committee in Statutory Rules 1997 No. 314, be postponed till Referral 25 March 1998. Motion (by Senator Jacinta Collins) Economics References Committee agreed to: Motion (by Senator George Campbell) That the following matter be referred to the agreed to: Committee of Privileges: That business of the Senate notice of motion No. The unauthorised disclosure of a draft report of 2 standing in the name of Senator George Campbell the Economics References Committee referred to for today, relating to the reference of a matter to in the report by the committee of 10 March the Economics References Committee, be post- 1998. poned till 25 March 1998. Membership Government Business Motion (by Senator Ian Macdonald, at the Motion (by Senator Ian Macdonald) request of Senator Ian Campbell) agreed to: agreed to: That senators be appointed to committees as That the following government business orders follows: of the day be considered from 12.45 p.m. till not later than 2.00 p.m. this day: Community Affairs References Committee— No. 4— NRS Levy Imposition Bill 1997 Substitute member: Senator Gibbs to replace Telecommunications Amendment Bill Senator Forshaw for the committee’s inquiry (No. 2) 1997 into the impact of government child care funding cuts General Business Employment, Education and Training Legislation Motion (by Senator Ian Macdonald) and References Committees— agreed to: Participating member: Senator Mackay That the order of general business for consider- ation today be as follows: Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legis- lation Committee— (1) General business notice of motion No. 967 standing in the name of Senator Mackay, Substitute member: Senator Allison to replace relating to industrial relations and employment Senator Woodley for the consideration of the policies; and provisions of the Australian Capital Territory (2) Consideration of government documents. (Planning and Land Management) Amendment Bill 1997. Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legislation ALTERNATIVE AND Committee COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINES Motion (by Senator Patterson) agreed to: Motion (by Senator Lees) agreed to: That business of the Senate order of the day No. That the Senate— 1, relating to the presentation of a report of the Environment, Recreation, Communications and the (a) notes: Arts Legislation Committee, be postponed till a (i) the high degree of public concern about later hour. the Government’s regulation of alternative 892 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

and complementary medicines, as evident Committee in response to the 1997-98 budget from the large amount of correspondence estimates hearings. received by Senator Lees on this issue, including a petition signed by 5 000 COMMITTTEES people, (ii) that there is some degree of confusion Publications Committee among consumers about the role and Report responsibilities of the Government in the regulation of complementary medicines; Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On behalf of Senator Sandy Macdonald, I present (b) recognises the need for consumers, small the 15th report of the Senate Standing Com- business owners and others involved with the complementary medical products indus- mittee on Publications. try to have access to clear information about Ordered that the report be adopted. the laws and regulations governing the manufacture, retail and promotion of com- Regulations and Ordinances Committee plementary medicines; and Statement (c) requests that the Government produce a plain English guide to the Therapeutic Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On Goods Act 1989, and accompanying regu- behalf of Senator O’Chee and the Standing lations, to enable consumers, manufacturers Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, I and retailers to obtain clear and concise present a statement on developments in the information about the role of the Govern- past year on scrutiny of instruments made to ment in the regulation of complementary implement national uniform legislative medicines and the rights and responsibilities of all parties involved with this sector of the schemes, and I seek leave to incorporate the therapeutic goods industry. statement in Hansard and to take note of the document. ORDER OF BUSINESS Leave granted. TAFE Funding The statement read as follows— The Standing Committee on Regulations and Employment, Education and Training Ordinances would like to report on developments References Committee in the past year on scrutiny of instruments made to implement national uniform legislative schemes. Common Youth Allowance These schemes present particular challenges for Motion (by Senator Carr) agreed to: scrutiny committees, because they usually deal with important matters and follow complex making That general business notice of motion No. 965 procedures involving Commonwealth, State and (relating to the funding of vocational education), Territory governments. These procedures are No. 971 (government responses to Employment, sometimes used as a reason to attempt to lessen or Education and Training References Committee exclude parliamentary oversight. The Committee, reports) and No. 980 (the Common Youth Allow- however, does not accept this dilution of the role ance), standing in the name of Senator Carr for of Parliament and applies its usual strict standards today, be postponed till the next day of sitting. to these instruments. The legislative scrutiny committees of the Commonwealth, States and BUDGET 1997-98 Territories cooperate in their scrutiny of national legislative schemes, which are discussed at confer- Consideration by Legislation Committees ences and meetings of Chairs. During 1997 the Additional Information Committee wrote twice to the Chairs of our sister Committees on this matter and then presented a Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On paper to the conference of Australian legislative behalf of the respective chairs I present scrutiny committees. Following that conference and additional information received by the Envi- further correspondence most of the committees ronment Recreation Communications and the wrote advising that the Committee’s suggestions could form the basis of a coordinated approach by Arts Legislation Committee in response to the all Commonwealth, State and Territory committees. 1997-98 additional estimates hearings and The Chairman pursued this at a meeting of Chairs additional information received by the Fi- yesterday. Also, the Legislative Instruments Bill nance and Public Administration Legislation 1996 included a provision which would dilute the Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 893 effect of the Bill in respect of parliamentary Firstly, the Committee noted that the Light Vehi- disallowance of instruments providing for uniform cles Agreement 1992 required the NRTC to devel- national legislative schemes. The Committee op and maintain national standards as a matter of reported to the Senate on the Bill on 21 November priority. The present Regulations, however, were 1996, 6 March 1997 and 23 June 1997. not made until five years later. This delay appeared to be a breach of parliamentary propriety. In respect of the activities of the State and Terri- tory committees, the Committee received a very Secondly, one single provision provided for 68 encouraging letter from the Chair of the Queens- strict liability offences. The Explanatory Statement land Committee on delegated legislation, Mr Tony did not advise of the need for these offences. The Elliott MLA, describing its experiences in scrutinis- Committee always questions unexplained strict ing the important Electricity-National Scheme liability offences, which may breach personal (Queensland) Bill. Unfortunately 1997 also saw rights. advice from the A.C.T. Attorney-General, Mr Gary Thirdly, the Regulations provided for a system of Humphries MLA, a former Deputy Chairman of the administrative infringement notices for offences. A.C.T. Committee, that there seemed no prospect The Committee has no objection to such systems of advancing our views through the Standing provided that they include proper Committee of Attorneys-General. This was disap- pointing but the Australian legislative scrutiny safeguards. In this case an official who serves an committees will continue efforts to coordinate our infringement notice was given the power to extend activities and to give our usual close attention to the time for payment, apparently forever, with no individual instruments implementing national indication of when the discretion could be exer- scheme legislation which are tabled in our separate cised, which the Committee noted could be at the legislatures. By dint of circumstance, however, a time the notice was issued, within the time provid- particular package of regulations made under a ed in the notice for payment, or at some later time. national scheme gave the committee the opportuni- Fourthly, the Regulations did not include the ty to demonstrate how co-ordinated national essential safeguard that infringement notices must scrutiny could be achieved. notify persons affected of their rights. In particular, The Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) an infringement notice was not required to include Regulations, Statutory Rules 1997 No.241, were the vital information that if a person pays the made under express provisions of the Road Trans- administrative penalty then any liability of the port Reform (Dangerous Goods) Act 1995 to apply person for the offence is discharged, the person as laws of the Australian Capital Territory and the may not be prosecuted in court for the offence and Jervis Bay Territory, with the intention that they the person is not taken to have been convicted of will be incorporated into the law of the States and the offence. This appeared to be a clear breach of the Northern Territory by adopting legislation. As personal rights. is often the case with regulations implementing a Fifthly, the Regulations provided for reconsider- uniform legislative scheme, the Regulations are ation and review of specified decisions. This was much longer than the enabling Act. appropriate but the Committee felt that it should The Explanatory Statement for the Regulations receive an assurance that all legislative instruments advised that they provide for duties and obligations in the Regulations are subject to disallowance and of participants in the transport of dangerous goods all administrative decisions are subject to reconsid- by road and for related administration and en- eration and review. The Committee also wanted to forcement. These participants included prime be assured that previously existing approvals, deter- contractors, consignors, drivers, loaders, packers, minations and exemptions which the Regulations importers and manufacturers. The Regulations were continued in operation remained subject to any developed by the National Road Transport Com- disallowance or review. mission (NRTC) under two intergovernmental The Committee accordingly wrote to the Minister agreements, in close consultation with the asking for comments on the apparent deficiencies Commonwealth and State and Territory authorities and noting the helpful cooperation which it had and major stakeholders. The Regulations were received in respect of related instruments. The made publicly available for comment and approved Minister replied in considerable detail. unanimously by the Ministerial Council for Road Transport. With respect to the possible delay in making the Regulations the Minister advised that the previous The Committee then scrutinised the Regulations in law was poorly expressed and possibly unenforce- the light of its high standards of personal rights and able in a number of areas. The Regulations in- parliamentary propriety and found a number of volved therefore a significant exercise to restructure deficiencies which warranted an approach to the the law and the necessary extensive consultation Minister. These deficiencies were as follows. took time. 894 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

With respect to strict liability, the Minister advised obtained an undertaking that three of the four strict that the offences related to matters where a contra- liability offences would be amended in respect of vention could give rise to serious injury to people, strict liability for drivers. The Minister persuaded property or the environment. As the Committee that the fourth offence was accept- such the offences conformed to Commonwealth able. The Committee therefore withdrew its notice criminal law policy. The Minister stated that each of disallowance on what by then was the last day strict liability offence was carefully considered and on which it was able to do so, giving notice pur- was of a regulatory nature which would not result suant to standing order 78 that it would be with- in a lessening of the offender’s reputation. Strict drawn at a later hour of the same liability would allow for easier enforcement, day. The Committee is pleased to report to the including the use of infringement notices. It was Senate that the position with respect to these argued that persons who consign dangerous goods Regulations is now acceptable. or are driving a vehicle transporting dangerous The Committee is particularly grateful for the goods are strictly liable on the basis that the personal attention which the Minister for Transport improper transport of such substances may have far and Regional Development, the Hon Mark Vaile reaching and devastating effects. It was stated that MP, gave to the Committee’s concerns. The if one part of a process does not comply with the Minister’s actions have ensured that the Regulations Regulations that dangerous situations could occur will comply with high standards of parliamentary later. propriety and personal rights. The Minister advised that the discretion to extend As noted earlier, the Regulations form the central the time for payment of a penalty could be exer- plank of the uniform national legislative scheme cised at any time up until a summons was served providing for the transport of dangerous goods. on the person for the offence. He undertook that the They are also an important part of the wider Regulations would be amended to provide that national scheme for regulation of road transport. infringement notices must include the usual safe- The Committee will therefore inform the Standing guards. Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills and the State The Minister assured the Committee that all and Territory legislative scrutiny committees of its legislative instruments made under the Regulations actions, which are another instance of the capacity were disallowable and that all administrative of legislative scrutiny committees to bring about decisions are subject to reconsideration and review, desirable change. except for those decisions which are not the ultimate decision affecting a person’s rights and Senator CALVERT—I move: interests. No discretions were exercisable under the That the Senate take note of the document. instruments continued in effect. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) The Committee thanked the Minister for his advice, (9.40 a.m.)—I think the issue of national which in general met its concerns. The Committee, uniform legislation schemes is important. We however, still had reservations about nine of the 68 strict liability offences and asked the Minister for are going to see a great deal of controversy further advice. Five of the nine offences involved on some legislation. We are seeing a situation drivers and the Committee was particularly con- also where the Commonwealth is getting out cerned that strict liability might operate harshly of a great deal of their responsibilities, espe- against them. The Committee suggested that it may cially in relation to the environment. It is be more appropriate to provide that these offences interesting that, considering the amount of must be knowingly or wilfully committed, especial- ly given that parallel strict liability offences existed public concern on issues like the environment, in respect of prime contractors. Two of the other the environment seems to be the particular four strict liability offences involved transferors, area where the Commonwealth is choosing to one an owner and one an occupier. remove themselves from responsibilities. The Minister replied with a very detailed explan- One of the major problems here is that ation of the offences, which met its concerns about there should be some sort of oversight func- five of the nine offences, but which still left the tion. In my opinion, the Commonwealth Committee with concerns about the should be able to have some kind of scrutiny remaining four. By this stage however, the protec- to see that the standards, whatever kind of tive notice of disallowance in respect of the agreements have been set, actually take place. Regulations had almost expired and the matter had become urgent. Accordingly the Chairman had two That does not seem to be the situation at the separate meetings over two days with the Minister moment in relation to such things as the and his advisers, following which the Committee environment and social issues. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 895

I believe that in many cases when the Senators’ Interests Committee Commonwealth is getting out of areas of Annual Report scrutiny it is a means of just getting it out of the way rather than having any better forms Senator DENMAN (Tasmania)—I present of legislation. That is a pity. I think it is the annual report for 1997 of the Committee necessary for the community of Australia to of Senators’ Interests. make sure that the Commonwealth are in fact Ordered that the report be printed. maintaining their levels of responsibility and that they do not just pick out particular areas Senators’ Interest Committee to shovel off to the states on the basis that the Procedural Rules states will act responsibly. Senator DENMAN—I present the pro- There are areas that the Commonwealth are cedural rules for the declaration and preserva- involved with, particularly in international tion of gifts received by senators for the agreements and international responsibilities, Senate and the Parliament. and it will be very difficult to find out what Ordered that the document be printed. is going to happen if we do not have the Senator DENMAN—I seek leave to make Commonwealth actually playing their part. a short statement. We have had announcements from the government that they are going to move out Leave granted. of everything in the environment except those Senator DENMAN—On 26 August 1997, areas of national significance, but they have the Senate agreed to procedures for the given no indication of what that might be in declaration by senators of gifts received by relation to international significance and them but intended for the Senate as an institu- whether it includes things like greenhouse gas tion. The resolution applies to all senators but emissions which require a concerted approach may particularly affect Senate office holders from the Commonwealth government. and senators leading delegations overseas. A gift is taken to be institutional rather than I wish to put the government on notice that, personal if the donor expresses that intention; in relation to any national uniform legislative or if the identity of the donor or the circum- schemes, we are looking very closely. We stances of the donation are such that it is know there have been efforts to make these reasonable to assume the gift is institutional kinds of moves not disallowable. We know rather than personal; or if the gift is from an there are moves to put major parts of the official source like a government and is native title bills into schemes that the states valued at over $500, or is from a private operate rather than the federal government. person and is valued at over $200. We know the issues of human rights, social justice and, obviously, environmental integrity The Senate has resolved that it is a serious are likely losers. contempt to knowingly fail to declare such gifts. The Senate resolution empowers the I think, in the end, it is going to bring a Committee of Senators’ Interests to formulate much wider debate within the community and table procedural rules for the declaration, about what is or should be in the constitution. registration and preservation of such gifts. It I certainly believe there was a deliberate is these rules which I now wish to table. The effort not to include any wider issues in the committee will recommend to the President Constitutional Convention. But I think there how such institutional gifts should be dis- is going to be greater and greater disquiet played, for example, in Parliament or in a within the community if the Commonwealth senator’s office or elsewhere. continues to act in the way it has to date. I I draw senators’ particular attention to the seek leave to continue my remarks. paragraph in the procedural rules which states: It should be borne in mind by all senators that as Leave granted. a matter of history, culture and practice, and while 896 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 respecting the traditions of other countries, Austral- artificially deliver a lower long-term unem- ia does not favour or encourage political gift giving ployment rate by actively excluding from or political gift receiving. There are, however, the employment services market 400 000 occasions of significance which governments, unemployed people who are not on benefits, parliamentarians, parliamentary institutions or people over 50 and people who have been others may wish to mark by giving a gift to another in case management for more than 39 Parliament. The Senate resolution and the procedur- weeks. al rules are designed to accommodate such occa- sions. COMMITTEES ORDER OF BUSINESS Public Accounts Committee Industrial Relations and Unemployment Reports Policies Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On Motion (by Senator Carr)—by leave— behalf of Senator Gibson and the Joint Com- agreed to: mittee of Public Accounts, I present report That the following motion be considered during No. 356 entitled An advisory report on the general business today in lieu of general business Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 2) 1997.I notice of motion no. 967: seek leave to have the tabling speech in- The Senate notes, with concern, that: corporated in Hansard and I also seek leave (a) despite coming to office pledging to reduce to continue my remarks later. youth and long-term unemployment by boosting economic growth, the policies of Leave granted. the Howard Government have in fact deliv- The speech read as follows— ered: Madam President, on behalf on the Joint Commit- (i) a 15 per cent increase in long-term unem- tee of Public Accounts and Audit, I present the ployment since March 1996, Committee’s Report No. 356: An Advisory Report (ii) a fall in employment growth from 2.9 per on the Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 2) 1997. cent per year during the last term of the Labor Government, to 1.4 per cent per Madam President, this is the third occasion that the year under the Coalition, Committee has reported on a bill arising from the rewrite of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936. (iii) an increase in the youth unemployment The first tranche of rewrite legislation was re- rate from 27.4 per cent to 28.4 per cent viewed during 1996 with the Committee tabling its since March 1996, and findings in August of that year. The second tranche (iv) a fall in economic growth from 4.7 per was reviewed in 1997 with the Committee reporting cent to 3.6 per cent since March 1996; in March 1997. (b) the Government’s response to this disastrous The Committee looks forward to reviewing further employment picture has been to contract out rewrite legislation as it is introduced to Parliament. the responsibility for its failures by abolish- ing the Commonwealth Employment Service The rewrite is being undertaken by the Tax Law and introducing a ‘market-based’ approach Improvement Project (TLIP), situated in the to employment services, without parlia- Australian Taxation Office, and has the aim of mentary scrutiny and excluding many simplifying and restructuring the existing law to hundreds of community-based employment make it clearer. This should reduce compliance service providers with excellent track re- costs to taxpayers. This Bill has attracted consider- cords and priceless intellectual property; able interest from stakeholders as it contains the important capital gains tax provisions. (c) the Government has introduced this funda- mentally flawed employment policy with a The Committee, because of its long involvement tender process which has been secretive, has with the rewrite of the 1936 Act, has recognised demonstrated no link between resource recurrent themes that have arisen during the review allocation and need, and fails to deal with of this Bill, and has commented on these matters ongoing issues such as performance moni- in the report. toring and purchaser/provider dispute resolu- Firstly, stakeholders have been frustrated for some tion; and time with the inability of TLIP to address issues of (d) the Government’s policy, despite being a small ‘p’ policy nature. The Committee has promoted as more flexible and effective, is acknowledged this and in Report 348—the review no more than a cynical measure designed to of the second tranche of legislation—recommended Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 897 that TLIP’s mandate be extended to encompass the transitional provisions relating to twelve areas have consideration of small policy issues. Although the yet to be released. Government has not agreed with this recommenda- tion, the Assistant Treasurer has put in place a The Committee considers it inappropriate to go separate mechanism involving stakeholders by further and has not agreed with calls to delay the which such issues can be addressed. The Commit- entire Bill. The Committee acknowledges the tee welcomes this initiative and believes this may imperative to maintain momentum in the progress- satisfy the thrust of its recommendation. ive introduction of clearer law to replace the 1936 Act and is encouraged by the fact that witnesses A second recurrent theme observed by the Commit- have commented favourably on the clarity of the tee, is the continuing perception among some Bill. Taxpayers should not be denied recourse to stakeholders that TLIP defers to an Australian legislation which is designed to be clearer and Taxation Office view when translating the existing which should reduce compliance costs. law into new law. Several submissions have focused on this issue and the Committee notes that The alternative to delaying the Bill advocated by the perception is strongly held by some stakehold- some witnesses—the introduction of a no-detriment ers and has been rigorously defended by TLIP. clause—has also not been supported by the Com- mittee. Such a clause would prevent closing off the The Committee has discussed this matter in the existing law. In reviewing previous rewrite legisla- report and provided some of the evidence as an tion, the Committee supported the view that the appendix. rewritten legislation should replace the provisions The Committee notes that if individual stakeholders of the 1936 Act and should not operate in tandem strongly disagree with the stance taken by TLIP on with that Act. The Committee has not changed its a particular matter, there are various other avenues view and believes it is more appropriate for taxpay- to seek redress. This is entirely appropriate and ers to rely on the existing section 1-3 and the forms a keystone of our system of government. traditional avenue of legislative amendment to protect against unintended consequences. A third recurrent theme, and one which appears to have had a critical impact on this review, relates to The Committee in reviewing the individual clauses the time available to review the Bill. of the Bill has made a number of recommendations which relate to The Bill contains the important and complex capital gains tax provisions, but unfortunately the time . policy issues which are outside TLIP’s mandate; allowed for stakeholders to respond to exposure . major technical issues which are sufficiently drafts of the legislation has been truncated, and the weighty to require substantial review which may time for the Committee to review the Bill after its be beyond TLIP’s capacity to undertake, or be introduction has been short, especially when sufficiently broad in scope to impinge on policy compared to the complex issues upon which the matters; and Committee has been expected to report. . minor technical issues of a non-policy nature As well, there is evidence of undue haste in which TLIP can address. preparing the Bill because it was incomplete when introduced, and one division and several transitional The report also contains as an appendix, comments provisions have yet to be released. on individual clauses of the Bill made in submis- sions and by witnesses, together with responses by The truncated consultation process and incomplete- TLIP. The Committee believes this will be a guide ness of the Bill have led witnesses to express a lack to the evidence and assist the debate on the details of confidence in their ability to adequately review of the Bill. the proposed legislation and identify unintended consequences. They have called for the implemen- In conclusion and on behalf of the Committee, I tation of the Bill to be delayed or for a no-detri- would like to thank all those who have contributed ment clause to be added. to this review. Many have provided submissions to the Committee and appeared as witnesses at the The Committee in reviewing the Bill has found Committee’s public hearings. In particular I would itself in a similar position to the stakeholders. The like to thank the private sector representatives on incompleteness of the Bill and the short time for TLIP and TLIP’s private sector consultative review has prevented the Committee reviewing the committee. legislation with the thoroughness it would like.The Committee has therefore recommended that the I would also like to thank members of the secretari- implementation of two Divisions and one Subdivi- at, Dr Margot Kerley the JCPAA secretary and Dr sion of the Bill be delayed pending its review by John Carter and Ms Tiana Gray who were involved the Committee. These provisions were released too with inquiry. I also thank Mr Gary Martin who was late for the Committee to review them or have not seconded to the secretariat to assist the Committee been released at all. The Committee also notes that and its secretariat with the review. 898 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Madam President, I commend the Report to the new owners to obtain transmission services which Senate. the government is committed to fund fully. In Debate adjourned. addition, the broadcasters have the option of renewing this contract for two further 5 year NATIONAL TRANSMISSION periods when the initial contract expires. NETWORK SALE BILL 1997 The bill ensures that after the sale, the public broadcasters will be able to maintain and develop NATIONAL TRANSMISSION their commitment to rural and regional areas. NETWORK SALE (CONSEQUENTIAL Through the development of a new access regime AMENDMENTS) BILL 1997 to transmission services, the government has been particularly careful to ensure that community Report of Environment, Recreation, service obligations continue to be met. Communications and the Arts Legislation Community broadcasters who sent submissions to Committee the inquiry acknowledged that the government is providing direct budget supplementation to Radio Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—On for the Print Handicapped broadcasting groups to behalf of Senator Patterson, I present the enable them to pay access fees. Other self-help report of the Environment, Recreation, Com- retransmission services and remote commercial munications and the Arts Legislation Commit- television services will also receive concessional tee on the provisions of the National Trans- pricing arrangements. Those emergency service mission Network Sale Bill 1997 and the organisations, largely manned by volunteers, which National Transmission Network Sale (Conse- operate services relating to the preservation of human life will also benefit from concessional quential Amendments) Bill 1997 together with pricing and the opportunity of renewing their submissions and the Hansard record of contracts for two further 5 year periods substantial- proceedings. ly under the same terms and conditions. Ordered that the report be printed. The Committee was concerned that certain ancillary Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to services such as closed captioning for the hearing impaired might suffer if they are not considered a incorporate the tabling statement in Hansard. ‘protected service’ under the new regime. Accord- Leave granted. ingly, it has recommended an amendment to Clause 15(2) so that closed captioning should be a protect- The statement read as follows— ed service included in the new access regime. The Committee has inquired into the bills and it is I commend the report to the Senate. recommending that the Senate should pass the bills. The bills provide both the ABC and SBS with the opportunity to have a direct commercial relation- HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION ship with transmission service providers - a rela- AMENDMENT BILL 1997 tionship they have been seeking for a long time. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE In evidence to the Committee, both organisations welcomed the greater flexibility that the new LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL arrangements would give them. They told the (No. 1) 1998 Committee that the sale of the National Transmis- sion Network to a private entity would provide CRIMES (SUPERANNUATION them with an opportunity to achieve control of their BENEFITS) AMENDMENT BILL 1998 transmission services, an objective that they had been pursuing for many years. AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY Both public broadcasting organisations told the (PLANNING AND LAND Committee that they had been thoroughly consulted MANAGEMENT) AMENDMENT BILL during the development of the bill and that they 1997 were confident that the compact that they were negotiating with the government would be satisfac- LAW OFFICERS AMENDMENT BILL tory and would enable them to fulfil their current obligations. 1997 The government has ensured a smooth transition to First Reading the new regime by providing the public broadcast- ers with the opportunity to enter into a 5 year Bills received from the House of Represen- contract with the NTN and subsequently with the tatives. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 899

Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- Government is pursuing a quite deliberate strategy land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister to expand both places and resources for the univer- for the Environment)—I indicate to the Senate sities at the same time as it changes the mix of that those bills which have just been an- public and private funding. nounced are being introduced together. After Under this Government there has been strong debate on the motion for the second reading growth in the number of undergraduate student places. In 1997 there were over 17,000 more has been adjourned, I will be moving a undergraduate places than there had been in 1996, motion to have the bills listed separately on an increase that will, according to the universities’ the Notice Paper. I move: estimates, still be in place in 1999. That these bills may proceed without formalities, These figures are even better news for educational may be taken together and be now read a first time. opportunity than they first appear, since the 17-24 Question resolved in the affirmative. year old population, from which 70 per cent of undergraduate students are drawn, will decline by Bills read a first time. 3 per cent over the period 1996 to 1999. The result Second Reading is that a greater proportion of young Australians will have the opportunity to continue with their Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- studies. land—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister If postgraduate students are included, the increase for the Environment) (9.52 a.m.)—I table in numbers is even greater. On the universities’ revised explanatory memoranda relating to the estimates, there will be in the year 2000 in excess Customs and Excise Legislation Amendment of 453,000 domestic students in the higher educa- Bill (No. 1) 1998 and the Crimes (Superan- tion system, an increase of over 27,000 on 1996. nuation Benefits) Amendment Bill 1998 and In every year currently legislated, and in the years move: legislated by these amendments, there is an increase That these bills be now read a second time. over 1996 in the number of Commonwealth funded undergraduate places. In the year 2000 there will I seek leave to have the second reading be over 14,000 more Commonwealth funded speeches incorporated in Hansard. undergraduate places than there were in 1996. Leave granted. In implementing the efficiency cuts to forward The speeches read as follows— estimates the Government has been careful to maintain fairness. The universities have wherever HIGHER EDUCATION LEGISLATION possible accommodated the changed financing at AMENDMENT BILL 1997 the postgraduate course work level. This maximises This Government is one committed to expanding the number of students who will receive a first the number of places in higher education, to degree and all the opportunities that can flow from improving the resources of higher education, and that. to creating a higher education system that is The universities will from 1998 be paid the equiva- flexible enough to meet the needs of Australian lent of the minimum up front differential HECS students, employers and the community and to payment for each HECS liable undergraduate they continue to attract large numbers of students from enrol over their target level. For institutions with overseas. low costs this is an opportunity to offer additional The bill legislates funding levels for the years 1999 places without charging fees. and 2000. It provides new funding of Further opportunities to participate in higher $3,783,052,000 in 1999 (in addition to the existing education have been created by the Government’s $8,247,000 already legislated) and $3,581,640,000 decision to allow universities, from 1 January next in 2000. In legislating funds for 1999 and 2000, the year, to offer undergraduate fee-paying positions bill confirms to higher education institutions the once they have met their target enrolment levels. overall funding levels that are expected to be These are all extra places that would not otherwise published later this year in the Higher Education have existed. As students take up the fee paying Funding Report for the 1998-2000 Triennium. This positions, this has a flow-on effect, creating new will assist the institutions in their planning for the opportunities for students who would otherwise next few years. have missed out on a HECS funded place. It is a I want to take this opportunity to set the funding win-win policy. Students who would have missed decisions embodied in this bill in the context of the out on their first preference course will now get to Government’s policy to promote access to higher do it, and students who would have missed out on education in Australia and to build quality. The higher education entirely will now get to enrol. 900 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Over time, this policy could greatly increase the realised, and if our universities are to remain number of places in Australian universities. Up to competitive in the world market. 25 per cent of course numbers can be fee-paying The universities, and many dedicated individuals once the institution has met its target enrolments, within them, have already taken steps to maintain so the potential numbers of new undergraduate and improve teaching standards. The introduction students on a Commonwealth-funded base of over of first overseas and now Australian fee-paying 360,000 is very large indeed. students means that the universities have strong Another important point to recognise is that this financial incentives to deliver a high quality policy shift ends the previous government’s discri- product. Since it is in most cases impractical for mination against Australian undergraduate students the universities to differentiate between fee-paying and ensures that Australian students have equal and non fee-paying students, the policy of liberalis- rights of entry to Australian universities with ing access to the education system produces spin- overseas students. Under the Labor Party, if you off benefits for non-fee paying students. were from overseas you could invest in your future via education. But not if you were Australian. The Government has taken other measures to help Under the Labor Party, if you were a postgraduate improve the quality of teaching. The Committee for you could invest in your future via education. But University Teaching and Development was estab- not if you were an undergraduate. This was a very lished in July 1996 with a budget of $20 million unfair policy. Yet it is a policy Labor plans to over three years. It makes recommendations for bring back. Their draft platform released last week grants to encourage practical improvements in promises the abolition of this new opportunity for teaching and provide for staff development projects. students to invest in their futures. This is a very The status of teaching within the universities is backward step. being enhanced by the Australian Awards for As higher education numbers expand we must University Teaching, announced in the Great Hall make sure that opportunities to participate are last Monday night. These Awards recognise and widespread. The Government wishes to increase reward excellence in teaching, in the way that the opportunities for groups that have been under- grants administered by the Australian Research represented in higher education. People with Council recognise and reward the many outstanding disabilities, people from disadvantaged socio- researchers in our universities. economic backgrounds, women in non-traditional Funding for higher education research through the areas of study, people from rural and isolated areas, targeted higher education research programme has people from non-English speaking backgrounds, been increased over the 1997-99 triennium, with and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders are all additional funding totalling $129.3 million includ- the beneficiaries of the merit scholarships intro- ing the $90 million for research infrastructure. The duced in 1997. These scholarships provide exemp- quality of research training is being enhanced tion from the HECS charge to an additional 1000 through an additional $9.3 million in support for effective full time student units each year. By the Australian Postgraduate Awards. Funding for year 2000 the scholarships will provide exemptions collaborative research grants, now re-aligned in the of 4000 equivalent full time student units, which Strategic Partnerships with Industry—Research and means that well over 4000 students will benefit Training Scheme, has been increased by $30 each year. million. This collaborative funding forges stronger These groups of people also benefit from the links between industry and universities, providing Higher Education Equity Program, which assists the mutually beneficial opportunities for researchers in universities in developing appropriate programs to both sectors and helping universities diversify their improve educational outcomes. Additional measures funding sources. costing $72 million over three years were an- It is important to look at the overall impact of nounced last year by Senator Vanstone for Aborigi- higher education funding decisions taken by the nal and Torres Strait Islander higher education. government. The government’s financial commit- The distribution of growth places is designed to ment to higher education remains, of course, very ensure that potential students do not miss out substantial indeed. Despite the efficiency cuts to the because of where they live. Between 1996 and forward estimates total Commonwealth expenditure 1999 Queensland’s Commonwealth funded under- on higher education will remain higher under this graduate places will increase by approximately 14 Government than it was under the former Govern- per cent, and Western Australia’s by around 5 per ment. cent. In considering higher education funding it is The higher education system cannot just be as- important to look not just at Commonwealth sessed by the number of students within it at any funding, but at the total revenues available to the given time. A high quality education is essential if higher education sector. These are the figures that the potential present in Australia’s students is to be represent the true resources available to higher Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 901 education. They show that substantially greater Australia also continue to capture a significant funds are available to the universities. share of the overseas higher education market About a third of all university revenue now comes This Government will assist where it can. In order from non-government sources. These revenue to more fully understand the situation facing the sources have the potential for growth. Total funding Australian international education and training from all sources to the universities is estimated to industry I have commissioned Professor Raoul have increased by around $460 million between Mortley to undertake an investigation and report to 1995 and 1997. By 1999 it is estimated that the me by 15 December 1997. universities will have revenues around $650 million It is important that the higher education sector, and greater than in 1995. all other sectors of education and training, meet the While the Commonwealth government will remain needs of the community and employers as well as the largest single source of funds for higher educa- those of the students. This leads me to the import- tion, significant growth in higher education funding ant theme of lifelong learning. will be coming from the entrepreneurial activities Gaining skills is now much more complex. In the of the universities themselves. higher education sector this means that education To spread the burdens of fiscal restraint fairly, the and training does not necessarily happen at one Commonwealth has phased in the reductions in the institution in a continuous block of time. This allied growth in the amount of money for higher educa- to the increase in student numbers and the diversity tion. On top of that we provided the opportunity for of student backgrounds has placed greater demands the sector to expand and become less dependent on on universities. Commonwealth money by creating the opportuni- As the notions of lifelong learning—and the need ties for the universities to raise revenue in other constantly to update skills—take greater hold the ways. education and training sector must develop appro- Australian universities have been very successful priate delivery systems at a reasonable cost. in capturing a sizeable portion of the overseas The ramifications of lifelong learning will go across student market. Despite the currency difficulties in boundaries. Schools, universities and vocational some parts of Asia the prospects for the Australian education institutions traditionally have different education export industry are positive and our missions. It is already apparent, however, that the universities should still be able to derive a substan- boundaries between the sectors are becoming tial income from overseas students. blurred. Growth in higher education overseas student We have higher education institutions which offer numbers in 1997 is approximately 16 per cent. sub-degree programs and some TAFEs now offer degrees. Considerable attention is now paid to Our ability to sustain growth in the overseas articulation arrangements. I expect this trend to student market is because so far studying in intensify. Australia is still comparatively cheap. The United States and the United Kingdom are still more An increase in flexible arrangements in the post- expensive study destinations than Australia. compulsory education and training sector will help to achieve one of this Governments priorities—to Demand for study abroad is likely to be somewhat ensure that every young person wanting to pursue dampened by the current economic downturns in education or training after the compulsory years of Asian economies. Nevertheless, currency devalu- schooling, can do so. ations may in some countries have worked in our favour by widening the cost gap between us and The fact is that about one quarter of 16, 17 and 18 our major competitor countries, strengthening year olds are not in any form of post-compulsory Australia’s position in the education export market. education and training. This Federal Government will do its utmost to expand opportunities for and The most recent evaluation of the situation is that, lift the skill levels of these young people. At the due to relative movements in exchange rates over same time we want to ensure that adults of all ages recent months, Australia’s competitive position have good access to post-compulsory education and against the US, the UK and Canada has improved training at different stages throughout their lives. in all our major markets—Malaysia, Indonesia, This Government intends to progress this agenda Hong Kong, Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, South with the cooperation of all education and training Korea, Japan, Vietnam, China and India. sectors. Overseas educational qualifications will continue to I will now turn to other specific measures in this be strongly valued in Asian economies and the bill. The bill is designed to improve and streamline longer term demand for skilled labour will persist. the operation of the higher education program, and Australia has a good reputation for providing a will also provide increased funds to the sector over quality education and therefore I expect that existing legislated amounts. 902 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

In addition to legislating for the major funding 3.to amend the Australian Postal Corporation Act amounts I have already mentioned the bill amends 1989 to correct an anomaly in the exercise of the Higher Education Funding Act 1988 to provide Customs’ powers of examination of mail arriving supplementation for price movements, covering into Australia from the external Territories. items such as superannuation expenses, teaching 1. Amendments to the Customs Act hospitals, special capital projects, grants to open learning organisations and the total limit for certain The present definition of Australia in the Customs grants. The total increase on existing amounts in Act provides that Australia does not include the 1998 will be $165,000. Territory of Christmas Island or the Territory of Cocos (Keeling) Islands. The bill also builds on the streamlined arrange- ments for applications for remission of debt under The definition of Australia in section 17 of the Acts the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) Interpretation Act 1901 provides that Australia and the Open Learning Deferred Payment Scheme excludes all external Territories except Christmas (OLDPS), introduced by the Higher Education Island and the Cocos (Keeling) Islands. Funding Amendment Act (No.1) 1997. It introduces The combined effect of these two definitions is provisions to streamline the administration of the that, for the purposes of the Customs Act, Australia remission arrangements, by deeming applicants to does not include any of the external Territories. have received notification of a decision on their application within a reasonable period. The amend- The purpose of the new definition of Australia in ment also places the emphasis on the applicant to section 4 of the Customs Act is to state this advise the Secretary of the Department of Employ- position with greater clarity than at present. This ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs of a definition will provide that Australia does not change of address. The amendment will streamline include the external Territories. the remission process for students and simplify the The Ashmore and Cartier Islands are a group of administration of the process. islands and reefs 500 nautical miles west of Darwin The bill also amends the Maritime College Act and 80 nautical miles south of Timor. They are 1978 to ensure that the Australian Maritime uninhabited islands but are an external Territory of College’s (AMC) ability to charge fees is linked to Australia administered by the Department of the conditions of grants specified in the Higher Transport and Regional Development. Education Funding Act 1988. Unlike the statutes of In recent times, there has been an increase in the other institutions, the Maritime College Act 1978 number of landings by illegal immigrants on currently does not contain any provision to link the Ashmore and Cartier Islands. charging of fees to the conditions of grant under the Higher Education Funding Act 1988. The Previously, there were very limited legislative amendment will ensure that the Government may powers to deal with these landings under customs, take action against the institution for any breach of immigration and quarantine regimes. the arrangements for charging fees to students. This Amendments were recently made to the Customs is consistent with conditions already applying to Act, the Migration Act 1958 and the Quarantine other institutions. Act 1908 by the Environment, Sport and Territories This bill reflects the Government’s commitment to Legislation Amendment Act 1997 to enable certain a higher education system that is efficient, relevant powers under these regimes to be extended to these and of a high quality, striving for excellence and islands. innovation in teaching and research. The Customs Act presently states that, subject to I commend the bill to the Senate. subsection 6(2), the Customs Act does not extend to the Territory of Ashmore and Cartier Islands. Subsection 6(2) provides that regulations can be made to extend the whole or a part of the Customs CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION Act to these islands. AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 1998 The present wording of subsection 6(1), however, The Customs and Excise Legislation Amendment does not make it clear that the Customs Act also Bill (No. 1) 1998 has three main purposes: does not extend to all the other external Territories. It is therefore proposed to amend subsection 6(1) 1.to amend the Customs Act 1901 (the Customs to state that the Customs Act does not extend to the Act) to clarify that the Customs Act does not external Territories. extend to the Australian external Territories, In combination with the new definition of Austral- 2.to amend the Customs Amendment Act (No. 1) ia, these two amendments will make it clear that 1997 to remove the reduced entry threshold for the Customs Act does not apply in, or in relation goods imported by the post, and to, the external Territories. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 903

2. Amendments to the Customs Amendment Act. It is proposed to introduce the new subsection The Customs Amendment Act (No. 1) 1997 was 90S(1A) into the Postal Corporation Act which one of three Acts which introduced the cost recov- states that in section 90S, Australia does not ery regime for the provision of certain import include the external Territories. related services. This will be the same as the definition of Australia Under the regime, an amendment was made to the in the Customs Act and will enable Customs to Customs Act to reduce the value limit of goods examine postal articles from any external Territory imported through the Post which require an import where the conditions in section 90S have been entry and which therefore attract an import entry satisfied. processing charge. 4. Minor Amendments This value was reduced from $1,000 to $250 and This bill will also make several minor technical this amendment was originally to take effect on 1 amendments to the Customs Act and the Excise Act April 1998. 1901. These are explained in detail in the explana- A significant number of representations have been tory memorandum. received by Government concerning the impact that the decrease in the threshold will have on small to medium business. At present, the Joint Committee CRIMES (SUPERANNUATION BENEFITS) of Public Accounts (JCPA) is also conducting the AMENDMENT BILL 1998 inquiry into internet commerce. Customs is working closely with the Committee to ensure that all This bill amends the Crimes (Superannuation relevant data is available on these issues to enable Benefits) Act 1989 and the Australian Federal a full consideration of the implications of adjusting Police Act 1979. Those two acts make provision existing entry thresholds. for the making of superannuation orders against In light of the reporting timeframe of the JCPA, it corrupt Commonwealth employees, which have the is therefore not considered appropriate to proceed effect of cancelling those employees’ Common- with any proposed changes to existing entry wealth funded superannuation benefits. The bill thresholds until Government has had sufficient time improves the operation of superannuation orders to consider the Committee’s findings on this issue. and makes provision for a more efficient recovery Therefore, it is proposed to remove the original of benefits that have been paid by Commonwealth amendment to section 68 of the Customs Act so schemes. that the current $1000 entry threshold will continue. The bill allows superannuation benefits that have 3. Amendments to the Australian Postal Corpo- been rolled-over or transferred from Common- ration Act 1989 wealth schemes to be traced and recovered from roll-over institutions. That closes a gap in both acts Under the Customs Act, officers of Customs have which has allowed some roll-overs to escape the the right to examine goods imported into Australia operation of superannuation orders. by Post. However, a restriction is placed upon Customs’ power to examine mail by section 90S of The bill also provides a mechanism by which the Australian Postal Corporation Act 1989 (the Commonwealth employees charged with or con- Postal Corporation Act). victed of corruption offences may have their employer-funded superannuation benefits temporari- The effect of section 90S is that certain conditions ly suspended. Those amendments bring the Crimes must be satisfied before Customs can examine an Superannuation Benefits Act in line with the article of mail which is in the Post between Aus- Australian Federal Police Act which already makes tralia, and a place outside Australia. provision for the suspension of benefits of AFP A difficulty has arisen in the application of this members and staff members. provision to mail from the external Territories due Where a person has been charged with or convicted to the definition of Australia in the Postal Corpora- of a corruption offence, the Minister may make a tion Act. Under the Postal Corporation Act, Aus- written direction to the accused’s superannuation tralia includes the external Territories except fund, the effect of which is to temporarily suspend Norfolk Island. the accused’s employer-funded superannuation Under the Customs Act, Australia does not include benefits. The suspension prevents the dissipation of the external Territories. The effect of this difference superannuation benefits which may later become in the definition of Australia is that mail that is in the subject of a superannuation or recovery order. the course of the Post between any external Terri- Suspension or "freezing" of employer benefits tory and Australia cannot be examined by Customs. preserves the benefits in the Commonwealth Section 90S does not apply to this mail because the scheme until the finalisation of superannuation external Territories are not a place outside Australia order proceedings. A person’s own contributions under the Postal Corporation Act. are not affected by the suspension and may be 904 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 withdrawn or cashed in accordance with the The strengthening of land tenure security in the cashing restrictions of the superannuation law. The ACT for both residential and business purposes will suspension expires after 12 months, or sooner, for deliver on an important election commitment. example, if the person is acquitted of the offence Section 9 of the Seat of Government (Administra- or if the charges are withdrawn or otherwise not tion) Act 1910 provides that no crown lands in the proceeded with. Territory may be sold or disposed of for freehold The bill also authorises the Official Trustee to take estates. charge of and sell restrained property in satisfaction The Australian Capital Territory (Planning and of a superannuation recovery order. Those provi- Land Management) Act 1988 provides for land in sions are modelled on similar provisions in the the ACT to be National Land or Territory Land. Proceeds of Crime Act 1987. The Crimes Superan- National Land is land so declared by the Common- nuation Benefits Act has always made provision for wealth Minister as land used or intended to be used restraining orders but until now, there has been no by or on behalf of the Commonwealth. Land that mechanism to dispose of restrained property to is not National Land is Territory Land. The ACT discharge superannuation order debts. Government manages Territory Land on behalf of The bill simplifies the way in which information is the Commonwealth and may grant, dispose of, provided to a court that certifies the extent of a acquire, hold and administer estates in Territory person’s superannuation benefits in superannuation Land. order proceedings. It seeks to relax the rules concerning the admissibility of certain documents. The ACT Government has sought an amendment to the Australian Capital Territory (Planning and Finally, the bill facilitates the provision of informa- Land Management) Act 1988 to enable it to issue tion by superannuation entities concerning leases for a maximum term of 999 years. The Chief Commonwealth employees to the Commonwealth. Minister, Mrs Carnell, has cited the 99-year limit The extension of superannuation recovery orders to as antiquated and unduly restrictive. ACT business roll-overs, the suspension of employer-funded representatives have supported the proposed benefits of persons charged with or convicted of amendment. corruption offences, and the new role of the Effect of the Bill Official Trustee, fortify the operation of the two acts and ensure that corrupt Commonwealth The proposed amendment will increase the maxi- employees either do not receive or retain the mum permissible limit for the grant of new estates benefit of Commonwealth funded superannuation. in Territory Land to 999 years. The Bill will not That is consistent with the underlying policy of provide for automatic extension of existing estates. superannuation orders that a Commonwealth A leaseholder seeking a term longer than 99 years employee who discharges his or her duties in a will need to apply to the ACT Government for a corrupt way has failed to fulfil a fundamental new grant. condition of employment and by doing so, forfeits The ACT Government has indicated that only a his or her entitlement to publicly funded superan- modest administrative charge will apply to the nuation. Under the two acts, a person is entitled to grant of new leases to existing leaseholders, a refund of his or her own contributions and provided no terms of the lease, other than the lease interest and these amendments do not disturb that period, are changed. position. The proposed amendment removes the reference to The amendments are expected to have a minor and ‘or such longer period as is prescribed’ so that no unquantifiable financial impact on Government terms of estate greater than 999 years will be revenue. possible. I commend the bill to the Senate. The regulations currently applicable which relate to 999-year leases granted for tertiary education or church purposes prior to the introduction of self AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY government in the ACT, will be unaffected by the (PLANNING AND LAND MANAGEMENT) proposed amendment. AMENDMENT BILL 1997 The Act is proposed to take effect upon receiving the Royal Assent. The purpose of this Bill is to increase the attrac- tiveness of the Australian Capital Territory to Financial impact potential investors by removing the perceived The proposed amendment will have no direct disincentive to business and other investment, impact on Commonwealth revenue or outgoings. brought about by the limit of land tenure to 99-year However, it is intended that the amendment will estates, as distinct from freehold title enjoyed bring positive effects to the ACT economy by elsewhere in Australia. increasing the Territory’s attractiveness to investors. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 905

request No. 4 on sheet 860, which was moved LAW OFFICERS AMENDMENT BILL 1997 by Senator Woodley. This bill seeks to amend the Law Officers Act 1964 Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (9.53 to vary the terms and conditions of service for the a.m.)—I moved this request for an amend- occupant of the office of Solicitor-General for the ment as a fall back position from the previous Commonwealth. requests, which, as I pointed out, were sup- The terms and conditions of service for the ported by the current government when they Solicitor-General are similar to those for a judge of were in opposition and we had a very exten- the Federal Court of Australia and include eligibili- sive inquiry into this matter of the assets of ty for a judge’s pension and payment in lieu of unused long leave on the same basis as for a judge. farmers being counted for Austudy eligibility and the problem that created in that farmers Section 16 of the act applies the Judges’ Pensions Act 1968 to the Solicitor-General as if he or she find themselves to be income poor but asset were a judge, albeit with some modifications as to rich so often. I thought we would move entitlements. requests for amendments which fitted in with Section 16A of the act provides for a payment to that report as it had been such a longstanding the Solicitor-General on retirement in lieu of debate going back over many years. I had unused long leave. The Government does not moved similar requests previously. As a consider it appropriate that these arrangements matter of fact, it was Senator Patterson, apply to the occupant of the office of Solicitor- Senator Lees and I who agreed on the occa- General. sion we had moved, once again, that same The term of appointment of the former Solicitor- request for amendment—that it should go to General expired on 31 December 1997 and it is an inquiry. Having agreed to that we held the proposed that the new Solicitor-General receive superannuation and leave entitlements similar to inquiry—and I was very pleased that the those applying to a senior member of the Australian coalition members of that inquiry signed the Public Service, rather than those applying to a report—which agreed that farm assets should judge. not be counted. It is proposed, therefore, to amend the Law Officers That refers to the first three requests I Act to remove the current entitlement to a judge’s moved. As you know, they were defeated. pension and payment in lieu of unused long leave for future appointees to the office of Solicitor- However, in the lead-up to the 1996 election General. the coalition released its higher education Entitlements already accrued by the former policy. I want to put that on the record again Solicitor-General will be preserved under the bill. because we were almost onto the adjournment Over time, the amendments will also realise some debate when I began to make this explanation savings to the taxpayer as a result of a reduction in last night. It is important that the Senate know benefits paid from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. what the coalition said in its pre-election I commend the bill to the Senate. policy because in this particular request all I am trying to do is help the coalition actually Debate (on motion by Senator Chris fulfil its pre-election promise. Evans) adjourned. Senator Neal—It must have been a non- Ordered that the bills be listed on the core promise! Notice Paper as separate orders of the day. Senator WOODLEY—I do not know SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION whether it is core or non-core. It does not say, AMENDMENT (YOUTH so I will just read what the policy stated: ALLOWANCE) BILL 1997 There are a number of inequities in the current In Committee eligibility requirements for Austudy. The coalition will relax the assets test for Austudy so that Consideration resumed from 11 March. farmers and other self-employed people are not The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- disadvantaged when the value of business related assets such as the family farm significantly outstrip tor Watson)—The committee is considering actual income. As a first step, a coalition govern- the Social Security Legislation Amendment ment will increase the discount in the assets test for (Youth Allowance) Bill 1997 and Democrat Austudy from 50 per cent to 75 per cent for farm 906 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 and business assets in businesses in which the They went around Australia and they met parent is substantially engaged. with organisations and individuals and came That is a very clear policy and this is a up with recommendations as to what needed chance for the coalition to implement what to be done to best help the farming communi- they themselves recognised first of all in the ty in response to issues related to the assets inquiry we had and then in their own policy. test. As a result, the triple A package, which As a matter of fact, when I pressed Senator was announced in September or thereabouts Brownhill prior to the election he told me that by the Minister for Primary Industries and I would be pleased with the coalition policy Energy, Mr Anderson, has been very well on this issue. When I saw it I said, ‘It’s not received in the farming community as going the 100 per cent the inquiry recommended but to the special needs of farmers having diffi- it is a first step.’ I thought that it would not culty on the land. be long before we saw the coalition bringing An important element of that triple A this matter into this place so that they could package was the retired farmers adjustment implement it because of their representation scheme, which has in fact allowed for the of farmers. When this legislation came for- orderly gifting of farm assets from one gen- ward I thought it would be the first opportuni- eration to another where a family farm is not ty to do so. I was surprised that it was not viable to keep two families. That has meant there. So I thought that we would help the that farmers who have a personal interest of coalition to fulfil a very important promise to up to $500,000, debt free—and that in itself give access to education to farm families is quite something, but their personal share in affected by the nature of farming. the farm is up to $500,000—are enabled to I was pleased that the coalition had extend- gift the farm to their family who are working ed that beyond simply farm assets to other the farm and move onto age pension, provid- business assets where there is a similar situa- ed they meet the criteria. That is really sub- tion obtaining. I think that we all agree that stantial because the average age of Australian access to education is a fundamental right and farmers is 58, which is way too high. We children from farming families must have the need a younger generation of farmers coming same opportunities and should have govern- on and we need to be able to keep our young ment encouragement to continue the same farmers on the farm, and one of the problems studies that other children receive. For these has been the lack of succession planning and reasons I believe that we should have support the limitations which the gifting provisions for this amendment. I look forward to that. have put on people who leave it to the last minute. So the window of opportunity that Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (9.59 that legislation will give to struggling farm a.m.)—That statement having been made by families who may in fact be asset rich but the Democrats, I would appreciate it if the getting little reward from their farm is going minister could advise the chamber whether to be a major benefit, not to a wide range of that is, in fact, the coalition policy. farmers; I do not want to suggest that— Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security) (9.59 a.m.)—Thank you, Senator Neal—Something like 60, I think Senator Neal. It is very good of you to give you said. me a chance to have a word. Senator, you Senator NEWMAN—Nothing like that; it would be well aware that there have been was 2,100. Those are people who fit the concerns for a long time in the farming com- criteria of having real financial difficulty munity about issues to do with assets testing. because there is more than one family being As a result, as soon as we came into govern- fed off that farm. It is an expensive measure ment we set up a rural task force, headed at to help them; I think it is something like $70 that time by my Parliamentary Secretary, million of public funds to help those farmers Senator Rod Kemp, and latterly by my next who may on paper have what looks like Parliamentary Secretary, Senator Grant substantial assets. I think we have honoured Tambling. our commitment to farmers. When you take Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 907 into consideration in addition to that the about another matter altogether, as Senator substantial benefits that this youth allowance Neal has already indicated. legislation is going to mean for country kids Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister in terms of being able to afford to go away to for Social Security) (10.05 a.m.)—I would study, you would have to agree that, as a like to point out to Senator Woodley that the package of measures, it has meant that we legislation was actually introduced into the have been very focused on helping farm House of Representatives yesterday, so he families. will be able to spend the next week studying Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.03 it carefully. I have been doing my best to a.m.)—I take on board the minister’s descrip- ensure that accountants, lawyers and farm tion of the provisions that allow farmers to leaders around the country understand the fine pass on their farm and receive the pension, print as well, because one of the things that but that is not what I was asking. I was has not been well understood is that it is not asking whether the statement made by Senator only the net value of the farm but it is the net Woodley relating to the discount on the asset value of the farmer’s interest in the farm that value of a farm was in fact the policy of the has to be under $500,000. That, for most coalition; I suppose I should say of the farms in Australia, is pretty reasonable. But coalition government. It did not relate to the this is not the occasion to be debating far- matters that you just raised. Did you miss mers. I am glad you think it is a worthy what Senator Woodley said? measure. I look forward to that debate and Senator Newman—I missed what he said. your support. By that stage I hope that you see that the fine print is very good. There Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (10.04 have been something like a thousand or more a.m.)—The Democrats support the triple A expressions of interest so far in it and I think package. It is a very good package, and 400 or 500 have put their names down to particularly the measure that Senator Newman apply as soon as the legislation goes through. was talking about is a very good one. In fact, Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.06 I wrote a private member’s bill on this some a.m.)—Maybe I missed it yesterday, but has time ago and then discovered that the govern- the government indicated whether they will be ment were taking it up. I will say, though, supporting this amendment? that we are going to have to amend it fairly heavily because it is far too exclusive, par- Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister ticularly the intergenerational transfer. From for Social Security) (10.06 a.m.)—No, the round the country financial planners are government will not be supporting it. telling me that they are not able to find Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) farmers who are able to fit all the criteria. So (10.07 a.m.)—Because Senator Newman did we are going to have to fix up the not actually answer the question asked by government’s package when it comes into this Senator Neal, can I just clarify with the place, but we have not seen the legislation minister that you are confirming that you are yet. What I am trying to do is not simply to going to be voting against your own policy? help the transfer of older farmers out of farming so that younger farmers can come in Question put: and take over but to help the families of those That the request (Senator Woodley’s) be agreed younger farmers, particularly the children of to. those younger farmers, to be able to get The committee divided. [10.11 a.m.] education. That is the issue, and it relates particularly to this common youth allowance (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) legislation. That is why I want to press this Ayes ...... 9 amendment. While commending the govern- Noes ...... 38 ment on the triple A package and giving —— Majority ...... 29 notice that that will also need to be amended, —— I want to press this amendment, which is 908 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

AYES In most cases students are allowed to earn Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. $230 a fortnight before their Austudy, or Bourne, V. * Brown, B. youth allowance in this case, is affected. If Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. they earn a larger amount, they can extend it, Woodley, J. over a longer period, to allow them to still access the allowance. In the normal lifestyle NOES Abetz, E. Bishop, M. of a student, that would allow them to work Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. intensively during the vacation period and Campbell, G. Carr, K. earn in excess of $230 per fortnight but then Collins, J. M. A. Cook, P. F. S. to earn nothing, or very little, during the Coonan, H. Crane, W. normal studying period and to even out their Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. * income over the year so that it is not detri- Eggleston, A. Ferris, J. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. mentally affected. That obviously gives a lot Hill, R. M. Hogg, J. of benefit to students. It ensures that they can Kemp, R. Lundy, K. maximise their income earning capacity Mackay, S. McKiernan, J. P. during the vacation periods and maximise Murphy, S. M. Neal, B. J. their time for studying during the semester Newman, J. M. O’Brien, K. W. K. periods. I really have to say it is a very O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. positive step. The effect of our amendments Payne, M. A. Quirke, J. A. Ray, R. F. Reid, M. E. is to try to extend this mechanism to unem- Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. ployed young people—of course, that would Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. include those young people who are presently Watson, J. O. W. West, S. M. being case managed. * denotes teller The provision now for young people is that Question so resolved in the negative. they can only earn $30 a week before their Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.15 youth allowance is lowered and, for many a.m.)—by leave—I move: people, $30 a week is not a great deal of money. I suppose there may well be an That the House of Representatives be requested acceptance in the community that if you are to make the following amendments: earning more than that amount your reliance (12) Schedule 2, item 8, page 172 (after line 9), on the community should be reduced. third flow chart box on the left, omit "$230", substitute "the person’s ordinary What I am concerned about and what the income free area". amendments are aimed at is that, with the (14) Schedule 2, item 8, page 174 (lines 3 to 9), way that work practices are and with the omit "$230" (wherever occurring), substitute present level of unemployment, sometimes "the person’s ordinary income free area". access to employment may only be in very (15) Schedule 2, item 8, page 174 (lines 10 to short bursts. I do not believe that it is unusual 17), omit "$230" (wherever occurring), for a young person to be offered employment substitute "the person’s ordinary income free for, say, a short period of one or two weeks. area". That person would obviously earn substantial- The general thrust of these three amendments ly in excess of the $30 a week. What I am is to extend the provision presently contained concerned about is that we, as a community, within the legislation for the benefit of stu- want to maximise the possibility of that dents to another group—the young unem- young person ultimately being employed— ployed. You might recall that, previously, the hopefully in a career that they enjoy—and social security legislation for students had that the best way of ensuring that they even- provision for a yearly income test which had tually enter full-time and ongoing employ- similar effects to this, but this is the first time ment is that they obtain some sort of work the income test as such—as an income experience. It is really not a very unusual bank—has been included in the legislation. I story to hear from young people that their think it is a very good move. biggest impediment to getting work is that, Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 909 when they apply for the job and are asked fully, to vote for them and for giving unem- what experience they have, their answer is ployed young people a better opportunity of none. I do not think that is through any fault gaining experience and of ultimately being of their own. You have to start somewhere. gainfully employed. By allowing the income bank to be applied Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) to those young people, I am not suggesting in (10.22 a.m.)—The Greens (WA) thought this any way that their income-free area should be was such a good idea that we also had this in extended beyond the $30 a week but they our amendments. But, because we knew the should be able to average it out over time. If ALP were moving it, we dropped it off our they, say, get a couple of weeks employment sheet. Naturally, we will be supporting this. but then are unemployed for a substantial One of the issues that is very prevalent period, their income should be evened out so amongst young unemployed people is the that their youth allowance is not affected. I level of indebtedness. It is not unreasonable think this would be a very useful mechanism to suggest that seasonal work of some nature to emphasise to young people that they should hardly delivers a sovereign’s ransom. It would take up work, even if it is only for a very be unfortunate if they were punished for short period, and to encourage them to gain trying to get a Bankcard debt down or trying that sort of short-term experience in the hope to get on their feet and cover some other costs that, ultimately, that will serve them in good in their life by utilising those kinds of season- stead in getting long-term work. It is unfortu- al work opportunities or, as Senator Neal nate but, with our present levels of unemploy- suggested, other potential work opportunities. ment and in particular our levels of unem- ployment for young people, it is often extra- A work opportunity could arise from some- ordinarily difficult for young people to get body in an office going on leave and an work, and we should be assisting in any way unemployed person then has an opportunity we can. to fill that position and get some real experi- ence. We should try to find ways to deal with I suppose what the minister may say in that transitional time: from the point of being response is that we cannot be too lenient— unemployed to the point of gaining the confi- that if they are earning above the $30 a week, dence to go out into the workplace and earn their youth allowance should be reduced. But, a real living. Unfortunately, the government in terms of encouraging young people to get is not doing a lot about that, so the very least that work experience, I am prone to lean on it can do is assist young people to get that the side of leniency and to say that it is more experience, to utilise seasonal work where it important to get them back to work in the exists, and to have the potential to stay out of long term than it is to apply strictly an in- debt. come-free zone without exception in the short term. One of the great problems that has been Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister developing—only in the last three to five for Social Security) (10.24 a.m.)—I caution years, maybe less, it seems to me—is that of the Senate against accepting this opposition long-term unemployment. I do not mean that amendment. One of the most telling things is in the technical sense of over two years. I am that, as I am advised, it would cost around talking about people who are unemployed, $27 million a year to extend this provision to with few skills, little experience and a limited the young unemployed from being given just expectation of ever being employed. This to students. I remind the Senate that Depart- group starts at 18—not at an older age—and, ment of Social Security statistics show that on with each passing year that they remain average young people now remain on unem- unemployed and without work experience, the ployed payments for five months. That would chances increase of their ultimately becoming not seem to be an enormous problem when one of the entrenched long-term unemployed. you compare their ability to take up oppor- I plead very strongly with the Senate to tunities for part-time work with the situation consider these requests for amendment care- of students, who may be on a youth allow- 910 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 ance—Austudy, as it is now—for a number of nary that she is so confident of this one. Even years. if it were the case that it would cost $27 There are differences in this element be- million a year, it would be $27 million a year tween students and the young unemployed. well spent. Students have a much more constrained It seems to me that the government’s opportunity to take work because of the priorities are all wrong. We have committed nature of their studies and their time commit- ourselves to billions of dollars to bail out ments. It is much more difficult for them to Western speculative banks in South-East Asia take part-time work during the year, but they for taking out unsecured loans—billions of can take it during semester breaks and the dollars! Here we are talking about giving our long break in the summer. That is why we kids the chance to gain confidence, self- have tried to make special arrangements for reliance and an ability to make their own students. decisions, to meet some of their own needs The current income test for unemployment and potentially to get out of some disastrous benefits is a fair balance. It is one for which debts by using opportunities that often are I give credit to the previous government, as only available through seasonal work for I have done before in this place, for having people who have no other skills. The govern- introduced in 1995 a better arrangement for ment is being mean-spirited. It is forgetting people trying to get some part-time work that $27 million a year to the young people of while they are on benefits. As Senator Neal Australia is a great deal and would be very has said, that is $30 a week without losing much appreciated by them, rather than it one dollar of benefit; for the next $40 a week being in the pockets of governments who they lose only 50c in the dollar; and beyond simply are prepared to give billions of dollars that it is 70c in the dollar. It is a long taper away to Western speculative banks for unse- for income testing, which I do not believe is cured loans. unfair. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- The current system gives people an incen- tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian tive to find work. When the Labor Party Democrats) (10.29 a.m.)—The Australian introduced that tapered means test, the argu- Democrats will be supporting the opposition’s ment was very strongly put that that was in requests for amendments just as we would be order to give a real incentive to find work and supporting the Greens (WA) amendment, if to reward people for finding work. We agree that were being put. We support the extension with that; it was the right thing to do. It of this income bank. But I was quite curious certainly has proved its worth. More and more to hear just then the minister’s comments in people are taking up part-time or casual work relation to the differences between the circum- opportunities when they arise. stances of young people—specifically young Also, they are not likely to be unemployed unemployed people—and students. or to be on income support for as long as I might put on record that many of those students are and do not have the same con- differences, financial or legal, are of the straints on when they earn their income. But, government’s own making. Many of them are if you extend the student income bank, you manufactured by governments themselves. I would effectively be undermining means include in that the disparity, until recently, in testing for young people. That is why the benefits if you were a student accessing Senate should recognise that the result of that student financial assistance as opposed to a would be extra expenditure of around $27 young unemployed person getting the dole. million a year and that would be totally Of course, as to job opportunities, while I unacceptable to this government. recognise the particular constraints, certainly Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) time wise on young people who may be (10.27 a.m.)—Considering the minister has students or mature age students, I do not think not answered any of my questions I asked job opportunities are particularly good for any yesterday about her costings, it is extraordi- young Australian at the moment. And why Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 911 would the government then, conscious of groups—one which waits a long time, and these differences, conscious of the difficulties one which gets employed almost immediate- that face students in particular, seek to per- ly—gives you an average of five months. But, petuate the differences—and the unfair differ- really, as a representation of how the group ences at that—by insisting on an age of operates, it is not terribly helpful. Can you independence of 25, which is at least four give me any guidance on the profile of young years different from that for a young unem- people’s period of unemployment? ployed person? Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Many of the constraints to which the for Social Security) (10.33 a.m.)—As I have minister referred that affect young students said, we will do what we can for you. are there because the government has made it Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.33 very difficult for young people—be they a.m.)—Bearing in mind that obviously this is students or not—not only to obtain work but fairly crucial to the debate, I think it is im- to have money in the bank. portant that we wait for that information to be Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.31 provided. I was a little startled by the minister a.m.)—I have a question to put to the saying that $27 million was an unacceptable minister. She has mentioned the figure of five amount to pay for getting or assisting young months as being the average time. What is the people to get back to work. mean time that young people are on unem- I know that we sometimes get a little ployment benefits? cynical in this chamber when we talk about Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister that side and this side of politics. But is it for Social Security) (10.31 a.m.)—We will really too much, from an annual budget the have to come back, Senator, and give it to size of Australia’s, to spend $27 million on a you shortly—as soon as we can. provision that potentially may mean in the Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.31 long term that young people—and eventually a.m.)—Minister, I am still waiting for those they become middle-aged people and older figures that you promised me shortly—I think people—do get into the work force? I do not about a week ago now. It just reminds me know whether that is true. I do not think that that you might provide me with those figures sort of money to encourage people into work I have requested. is that huge. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister I listened to the minister’s comments about for Social Security) (10.31 a.m.)—You did the tapering of the income-free zone, how that say median, didn’t you? was a great measure and that it encouraged Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.32 people to look for part-time and casual a.m.)—Yes, I did—basically the average work—and I am sure that is true, and I point. The trouble with averages is that, if appreciate her comments. But I do not believe there is a large number of young people who that in the fight against unemployment—and, get work almost immediately, that may well in particular, youth unemployment and long- bring the average down. I suspect—and I term unemployment—making one change, would seek some guidance from the depart- putting in place one measure and saying, ment on this—that there is a large number ‘Well, that’s fair enough; we’re quite happy that get work virtually within one or two with the levels of unemployment, and we’re weeks, but then there is another group that not going to do any more’ is really a satisfac- waits for substantial periods of time before tory position to take. actually becoming employed. This particular Senator Newman—I am not saying that, policy is aimed at that second group. I sup- and you know it. pose that the first group, which works almost Senator NEAL—If that is not what the immediately, would be largely unaffected. minister is saying, I am very pleased to hear I think that sometimes averages can be it. I think the fact that we did introduce a misleading in that this putting together of two longer tapering of the income-free zone was 912 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 a good thing. The provision proposed in our going from $30 to $31. That is extraordinary. amendment of having the income bank for It might be better than what it was—I am not young unemployed people can also assist. The sure—but that is not a long taper. Basically, fact that the minister is leaving her mind open if you go from $30 a week without having to that possibility, that her mind is not closed your youth allowance affected to $31 a week to making further provisions to get the unem- and having it halved, that is not a long taper. ployed back to work, is very pleasing to hear. That is extraordinary. Senator Newman—The government is Senator Newman—It is nothing of the sort. focused on getting young people into jobs. Senator Neal—It is only for the dollar Senator NEAL—If you go out into the above the $30. community—both at the local and national Senator MARGETTS—Oh, it is for your level—overwhelmingly the community’s view marginal rate. But it is quite extraordinary and is that the reduction of unemployment should it is more than you would have in a taper on be this government’s, and any future a tax system. Can the minister guarantee that government’s, absolute first priority. It cer- it is the marginal rate above that? How does tainly will be a very difficult thing for this that work? It is not going to affect a person’s government. They have relied very much on income; it is going to affect their youth predictions of economic growth which obvi- allowance, is it not? How does that actually ously appear to be very inaccurate, and will work? That does seem to be a fairly steep continue to be even more inaccurate as the taper, not a long taper. impact of Asia’s deteriorating economic climate comes into effect. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister So, if the policy of fighting unemployment for Social Security) (10.39 a.m.)—The answer that this government has been pursuing is by is yes. way of economic growth—and I think it is Senator Margetts—That is no answer. Can fairly well accepted that you need economic you explain how it works, please? growth of at least four per cent, and probably Senator NEWMAN—I do not think this is closer to 4.5 per cent, to really reduce the the occasion, after we have been debating the level of unemployment—then certainly the youth allowance for two weeks, to give levels of growth this government is creating Senator Margetts a lesson on how the system are not coming anywhere close. works. If the government is failing in that area, Senator Neal—You raised the issue. what else is it doing to deal with unemploy- ment—not just over the next week or next Senator NEWMAN—No, you do expect a fortnight or the next six months but for many certain basic level of knowledge about the years to come? As I say, the seeds of long- subject under discussion, Senator. term unemployment—sometimes for genera- Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) tions—are sown by a failure to do everything (10.40 a.m.)—This is an outrageous response. possible to get young people into work. This We are actually dealing with the item on is why the opposition has moved these re- student income bank. The minister said this quests for amendments. Again, I hope that the is a very generous taper. The minister said minister will consider the matter very careful- after $30 a week the effect on the student ly. Maybe the minister has some information allowance is 50 cents in the dollar. On the for me now about the length of employment record I would like the minister to explain of young people. how that works. That is not unreasonable. The Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) minister brought up the subject. It is reason- (10.38 a.m.)—I would also like to ask a able to have this on the record. question about the so-called long taper. I Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister cannot imagine in a tax regime going from for Social Security) (10.41 a.m.)—The with- $30 a week to $31 a week and having half of drawal rate is 50 cents in the dollar on the your allowance taken off you as a result of marginal rate, Senator. You obviously cannot Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 913 have got a briefing on how it works when the Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Labor Party were in government. I would for Social Security) (10.43 a.m.)—I obviously have thought they would have offered you a have to defend myself against that because it briefing. I am sorry about that. I did not is untrue. Senator Neal knows that every time realise that you had that problem, and I am she has asked for information I have done my happy to offer you a briefing after this has all utmost to get it for her in a speedy fashion. finished. As she was in government—although not as a minister—only relatively recently, she Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) would realise that this can be a problem for (10.41 a.m.)—The problem I think, Minister, ministers in debates, no matter what the is you at the moment, because you do not political colour, no matter which department seem to understand the impact that your we are talking about. If oppositions or policies are having on the young people of minority parties want additional information Australia. to what is available to the officers who are Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.41 present in the chamber, then sometimes it can a.m.)—Does the minister have available the take some time to get. information that I requested? I am sorry, Senator, if you do not feel that Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister you have had speedy enough service. I have for Social Security) (10.41 a.m.)—It is com- done my utmost to accommodate you. I ing, Senator. I am afraid the officers have had understand that you would like more informa- to get back to the department for it. tion on this, but I have given you the infor- mation that was very relevant to this debate. Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.41 It is that on average young people between a.m.)—I must confess that this happens more the ages of 18 and 20 are on unemployment and more regularly, Minister. You have a payments for five months. That is very rel- group of six people there and none of them evant to this question about incentives and have any idea about that fairly obvious issue. questions about young people taking up work, I find that quite extraordinary. I also find it because it means that they then go either into quite extraordinary that so often when infor- work or into study after that period of unem- mation is requested in a debate you seem to ployment. You are asking for additional make no effort to access it before the issue information on that. I do not have that yet, that it relates to is actually dealt with. In fact, and I am sorry about that, but you have I would go so far as to say that in some cases enough to be going on with because, quite it is a strategy because the information that clearly, the issue is one of incentive. has been requested might not necessarily assist your case. Your government—obviously Senator Senator Newman—We are bringing it Margetts did not realise this—introduced what forward as fast as possible. I think was a very good change to the Social Security Act which did provide for much Senator NEAL—When we were in govern- greater incentives for people of any age to ment the information requested was dealt with take up available work, and I have com- in a much more responsive and responsible mended you for it. That remains. It is not fashion. The minister seems to hold the view something we have introduced, but it is a that the information is to be used solely in good thing. Therefore, I think the young support of her and her government’s argu- unemployed people who do have more avail- ments rather than it being a resource available able time to look for work and to take up to the whole chamber so that we can properly opportunities for work do not need the in- assess what our response should be to ques- come bank provisions which are provided tions we have to decide. I do not think it specifically for students because they do not assists decision making in this chamber for have those same opportunities to take up job the minister to be so slow and, frankly, un- opportunities of one kind or another during an interested in providing information requested. academic semester. You would recognise that 914 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 is the case. I cannot believe that you would tion. If there are some aspects of it that the be prepared to spend $27 million per annum government is claiming confidentiality on, I extra in order to extend the income bank am quite happy for you to advise me of that. provisions to a group of young people who, But there are large proportions of the informa- because of your own government’s actions, tion that are not within that range. I would already do have substantial incentives to take appreciate your giving me the numbers that up what work is available. can be given and indicating which figures the Before I sit down, I point out to you that government is claiming confidentiality on the whole purpose of youth allowance—there rather than just not responding at all, which are several, but a very primary purpose of is what seems to be an increasing trend. youth allowance—is to make sure that young Could I have the courtesy of some sort of people by the time they are 18 are much more formal response from you or your office at employable than they are now, because too some stage? high a proportion of them are offering them- Senator Newman—Yes. selves on the job market without skills. When Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) this measure is introduced, we will start to see (10.49 a.m.)—That is interesting. We have young people acquiring the skills up to the had commercial in confidence. What would age of 18 that they will need to offer employ- be the basis of holding in confidence the ers. Hopefully we will not have the big pool number of unemployed people, which should of unemployed young people that we inherit- be available to the taxpayers and to the ed when we came into government. people of Australia? Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.46 Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister a.m.)—I do not wish to take up the time of for Social Security) (10.49 a.m.)—It is a long- the Senate on this issue for much longer, in held practice that projections of all sorts of terms of access to information. I will make things by Treasury are not necessarily on the two points. The first is that averages can public record. always be misleading. Although the average is five months, it may well be that there is not Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.50 one single young unemployed person who a.m.)—The only projections that would be gets a job after five months. I am sure that is part of the information I requested are predic- a matter you understand fully. That is why it tions of the level of youth unemployment. I is not always the most indicative statistic. The would have thought it rather necessary and second thing is about the information I re- important for the community to be aware of quested, I think on Monday, in relation to what level of youth unemployment the numbers accessing youth allowance. Is that government is predicting. I must say that it likely to ever appear? has been a fairly general criticism of the government by the opposition that it seems Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister unwilling to indicate on the record that it has for Social Security) (10.47 a.m.)—I under- even a particular level of employment or stand that the difficulty my officials have had unemployment that it is aiming at. It seems is that, as I said on whichever day it was that quite extraordinary to me, and I think prob- I was asked for these, it was not information ably to most of the opposition, that the that was particularly held in Social Security. government believes the level of unemploy- A lot of them are assumptions that are held in ment that is expected and the level that the Treasury and the Department of Finance, government is aiming at with its policies are which I said at the time. I said that we would matters that cannot be disclosed to the public, endeavour to get them. I understand that all who are totally affected and interested in governments have kept their projections on knowing what the outcomes will be. such things as future employment as a confi- dential matter, and yours was no different. Question put: Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (10.48 That the request (Senator Neal’s) be agreed to. a.m.)—I asked for a huge amount of informa- The committee divided. [10.55 a.m.] Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 915

(The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) Social Security Act 1991 Ayes ...... 31 1 Subsection 23(1) (paragraph (g) of the Noes ...... 31 definition of newly arrived resident’s waiting —— period) Majority ...... 0 Repeal the paragraph. —— 2 Subsection 23(1) (paragraph (ka) of the AYES definition of waiting period) Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Repeal the paragraph. Brown, B. Campbell, G. 3 Paragraph 732(1)(da) Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. Repeal the paragraph. Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. * 4 Sections 739A, 739B and 739C Evans, C. V. Forshaw, M. G. Repeal the sections. Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. This amendment that I have moved on behalf Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. of the Democrats was circulated when we first Murphy, S. M. Murray, A. started considering this bill two weeks ago. It Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. is an amendment to the Social Security Act Quirke, J. A. Reynolds, M. relating to the two-year waiting period for Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. newly arrived residents and it seeks to exempt Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. those people from the waiting period simply Woodley, J. in relation to special benefit. The reason why NOES I am moving this—I understand the Greens Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. Boswell, R. L. D. Calvert, P. H. (WA) have an identical amendment that they Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. are seeking to move as well—is in response Coonan, H. Crane, W. to a growing number of calls from community Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. and charity groups, groups that work with Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. newly arrived residents, who are seeing the Gibson, B. F. Harradine, B. impact that this measure of the two-year Heffernan, W. Herron, J. waiting period is having on a number of Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. people. McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. Those community groups are being left to Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. * pick up the pieces when our newly arrived Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. residents find themselves in circumstances of Payne, M. A. Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. Vanstone, A. E. destitution, unable to meet their most basic Watson, J. O. W. requirements and needs of life. That situation PAIRS is a direct result of the legislation that was Bolkus, N. Reid, M. E. passed by this parliament last year which does Collins, R. L. Tambling, G. E. J. leave a number of people finding that they Conroy, S. Hill, R. M. cannot meet even their most basic require- Faulkner, J. P. Knowles, S. C. ments of life. These are legal Australian Mackay, S. Kemp, R. residents who have been invited into Austral- Ray, R. F. Troeth, J. * denotes teller ian society. They are unable to buy sufficient food to eat, unable to access safe or suitable Question so resolved in the negative. accommodation and unable to feed their Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.00 children an adequate and nutritious diet. In a.m.)—I move: fact, some newly arrived residents have found That the House of Representatives be requested that they have been left with no option but to to make the following amendment: have their children cared for by other people (1) Page 181 (after line 28), at the end of the Bill, simply because they cannot access adequate add: financial resources to care for themselves. In Schedule 3—Newly arrived resident’s waiting the Democrats’ view, that is a totally unac- period for special benefit ceptable situation. 916 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

The two-year waiting period overall for aspect of it now is because of the evidence social security benefits for newly arrived that is now coming through that that is not residents was introduced in March last year sufficient to meet all the circumstances that and passed through the parliament at that people are finding themselves in. time. At that time the Democrats opposed that That exemption has been interpreted in a measure. We continue to do so because we manner that still leaves a number of newly believe that the principle that it is founded on arrived residents whose funds have run out is fundamentally flawed and discriminatory being denied special benefit despite being and also counterproductive, not only socially completely destitute. These people are then but we believe economically. confronted with additional problems because, A number of organisations have criticised being ineligible for a social security payment, the measure. Welfare rights groups and they are also ineligible for other assistance ACOSS in particular have said that the intro- such as access to labour market programs and duction of the social security waiting period concessions that may assist them in becoming for newly arrived migrants is basically creat- a more productive member of Australian ing a nightmare for those people and is society. Even worse, because they are unable perhaps the most serious undermining of the to support themselves and their families, basic fabric of Australia’s social security many new migrants are also effectively barred safety net. The Democrats believe that leaving from participating in migrant English program newly arrived residents, or anyone else for courses, which again would assist them in that matter, without access to any income at more adequately being able to be productive all when they have no other alternative means members of Australian society. So it is really of support is completely unacceptable. a catch-22 situation for these people. They are However, this amendment is not seeking to finding themselves with no way out. Many of re-run the whole debate about the two-year them came to Australia with very high expec- waiting period. The Democrats are still tations. Many of these people are skilled opposed to it but we accept that the govern- migrants who have a lot to contribute to ment is committed to that, and that is their Australian society in economic terms as well choice. What we are really getting at today is as socially and culturally. specifically removing that solely for special Is it really any wonder that a recent study benefit, which is the payment of last resort. It by the Ethnic Communities Council, which has traditionally been the very bottom safety was done in conjunction with the University net of our social security system available to of Sydney, showed that 46 per cent—nearly people who are in desperate need of income half—of recently arrived migrants now wish support, are not eligible for any other form of they had never come to Australia? The social security benefit and have no other government may say, ‘That is good. That alternative means of support. shows that we are giving the message that we Since last March, apart from some exemp- are not giving migrants an easy ride.’ I think tions, such as family members of refugees and that is an unfortunate interpretation. To think citizens, special benefit can only be paid to a that half of the newly arrived migrants in this migrant within two years of their arrival if country are now wishing they were not here they prove they have suffered a substantial does not give a very hopeful sign for the change of circumstances beyond their control. future in terms of how those people are going That is the wording from the legislation. The to feel and the many more who are going to government argues that that provides suffi- follow them who may feel likewise. How are cient discretion for the department to provide they likely to feel in terms of how connected special benefits for newly arrived residents they feel with the broader social fabric in who are in need. I think that was the argu- Australia? ment they used that convinced enough of the I think it is important to emphasise that the Senate to support the measure last year. The government has been looking very closely at reason why we need to re-visit this particular ensuring that the amount and quality of Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 917 information they give to people who are young people. That is partly why I think it is considering coming to Australia is as accurate particularly relevant that we are dealing with as possible. Through the immigration depart- this matter as part of the youth allowance ment they are continually searching to im- legislation. prove the service in that regard to ensure that There is any number of case studies those people are fully informed about not only the organisations have provided of the situation existence of this two-year waiting period but that people are finding themselves in which also their prospects of getting jobs when they are enough to demonstrate that there are get here, what the cost of living is and wheth- people in total and absolute need through no er their qualifications are likely to be recog- fault of their own. Maybe they did not get the nised. correct information; maybe they were just I accept the government’s efforts in that naive about how well they thought they regard. I think it is important to recognise that would go when they got here. From the no matter how good that becomes you will Democrats’ point of view, that really does not never be able to make sure that everybody matter and it is not the role of departments or knows everything they need to know in all government or society to judge people on that aspects before they come here. The Demo- matter. The bottom line is that people are crats believe that to simply say to those being left with no means of support whatso- people who get here and run into trouble, as ever and no opportunity for getting it; they people often do, that that is just their bad luck are totally destitute in situations of extreme is totally unacceptable. need, putting massive burdens on emergency Once many of these migrants do arrive in relief operations—the Salvation Army and Australia they are finding the reality much related services like that—which are not set different from what they had envisaged. That up to deal with those sorts of situations over is always going to be the case with some a long-term basis. I believe, and the Demo- people. Many find it difficult to get a job. We crats believe, that that is totally unacceptable. have heard a lot during the course of this I do not believe that the government intend- legislation about unemployment and the ed or envisaged that that situation would difficulties of young people who have lived necessarily occur or that the government is so here all their lives getting a job. Many young harsh. I recognise they want to send a strong migrants included amongst those obviously message out with the two-year waiting period. have even higher hurdles they have to try to I have already indicated that the Democrats get over to get employment. That is particu- do not agree with that, but I do not believe larly the case for those who come from non- the government is so harsh that they want to English speaking backgrounds. have a situation which now exists through the I imagine many senators have been getting existing legislation with such harsh conse- letters from some of the community organisa- quences being visited on people through no tions that are dealing with this problem out in fault of their own. For that reason, the Demo- the field. It is important to emphasise the crats are presenting the government and all of burden that that is putting on them—not just the Senate with the opportunity to reconsider the financial burden on their resources but this matter solely in relation to the special also the time involved and the emotional benefit and address the real need that is being burden on those workers. These are groups demonstrated out in the community. like the Welfare Rights Centre, the Council of Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Social Services groups, a number of other for Social Security) (11.14 a.m.)—I have groups and the migrant resource centres that listened very carefully to Senator Bartlett. I are working at the grassroots level. I have had do not want to engage in a re-run of the letters from the Fairfield youth workers previous debate we had on this in previous network and the non-English speaking back- times. As a former social security staff mem- ground youth issues network specifically ber, he would well understand what good addressing the impact of this measure on review and appeal processes are available to 918 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 people. They are working, Senator. The recent 1999-2000 at $19.5 million. It is interesting AAT cases have shown that people can here that ACOSS claims that it would be a demonstrate that they fit within the guidelines cost of some $30 million. One of the reasons for special benefit, and decisions can be they are wrong is that they are accessing overturned. That is an indication that that special benefit now, as I just demonstrated. review and appeal process does work and is Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.16 working for people in these circumstances. No a.m.)—Thank you for that response, Minister. doubt we will see some more. It is important I would just like to raise a couple of points to recognise and acknowledge that. out of it. I recognise and agree with your Another sign that the system is working is comments about the appeal and review pro- that there are currently over 300 migrants cesses that are available through the social receiving special benefit—in fact, it is about security system and the appeals tribunal. I 340 at the moment. That is growing month by could sidetrack here about the proposed month, as you would expect. So we are changes to tribunals and whether that is the recognising that there are cases that fit within way to go given how effective the Social the criteria for the special benefit and that Security Appeals Tribunal currently is, but I they are receiving it. I do not make any will leave that one for another time. apology for the wording of the current law. It I think there are two issues here. One is the is not something I really want to talk about extra difficulty that newly arrived migrants in now because of time constraints. particular would have in being aware of all If, through circumstances beyond their their rights in that regard. It is a constant control, people come to this country and find battle, as you know, for the department to that they cannot support themselves—for ensure that people in the general community example, because their sponsor has died or are aware of all the avenues open to them, because the job that they have been contract- and newly arrived residents in particular are ed to come to has gone—then special benefits less likely to be aware of all their rights. I do step in. But we do not believe that Australians not believe it is satisfactory to expect peo- expect new migrants to come here and walk ple—particularly people who are in desperate straight on to welfare without sponsors being situations, who are new to the country and prepared to honour their commitments. In the who often have language difficulties et cete- case of independent migrants, they should ra—to have to battle their way up through all either prearrange a job for themselves or bring the levels of the appeal system just to get sufficient money with them to support them- enough to eat. That is not satisfactory. selves. If there was no particular test for I also think the way the department appears migrants wanting special benefits, as we said to be interpreting ‘a substantial change of in the previous debate, it would simply be a circumstances beyond their control’ is operat- backdoor method to actually accessing sup- ing in a way where it is being interpreted very port from the taxpayer. It would be circum- tightly, so the fact is that people have run out venting the migrant waiting period altogether. of money. We are not talking about people I do appreciate, Senator, that you are well who are ignoring assistance from their spon- meaning in your motives in proposing it, but sor or whatever. We are talking about people I think it would send all the wrong signals to who have explored all of those avenues, or people. We have been trying to say, ‘You those avenues have dried up and they now come here; you are welcome; we welcome have no other alternative. your contribution to our country, but you are We are looking at the situation where they expected to make proper provision for your- have no alternative means of support at all. self in those first two years.’ That is a situation which applies with the I do not know that there is anything addi- special benefit in any case, and that has tional I should put on the table except that the always been the case. This extra hurdle is amendment has been costed by my depart- something that newly arrived residents and ment for 1998-99 at $13.3 million and for nobody else have to jump—they have to show Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 919 that the circumstances of absolute need that that decision, is the department likely to they are in have arisen due to things beyond change its interpretation of that clause in any their control. The provision is being interpret- way? ed, it appears to me, as something that they Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (11.19 could not have envisaged. The problem seems a.m.)—I wish to harken back to that point you to be that the department is saying to people, made earlier, Senator Bartlett. I think you ‘You have run out of money but you should quoted a figure of 46 per cent of immigrants have been able to see that was going to who regretted having come to Australia. I happen because you could not have expected wonder what the source of that was. to get a job or you could not have expected to have survived with the amount of money Senator Bartlett—That was from a study that you have.’ done through the Ethnic Affairs Commission in conjunction with the University of Sydney. Maybe these people have made a misjudg- It was a survey of recently arrived migrants. ment. I am loathe to make this look like it is Senator Newman—Was it in the paper just all a matter of foolish migrants who have not the other day? thought through what they were going to do before they came here, because I do not think Senator Bartlett—I am not sure. that is the case in a lot of circumstances. But, Senator Newman—If it was the one I was even in the circumstances where that is the thinking of, it was 95 Migrants. I am not sure case, I do not believe it is appropriate that if it is the same one. people who are in those circumstances and Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (11.20 have no means of support whatsoever should a.m.)—I rise to express a great deal of con- basically be told, ‘Tough luck. You should cern about the operation of the so-called have stayed at home.’ safety nets for newly arrived migrants within That is the message here and I believe most their period of two years of being in Austral- Australians, whether or not they support the ia. I well recall the discussions that have been overall principle of the two-year waiting held in this chamber over the last few years. period for migrants, would accept the reality I have pages and pages of Hansard in which of the situation that some people are being there have been questions asked of the put in where they have no alternative means minister and expressions of concern made by of support, whether through their own various honourable senators and myself. misjudgment or through being given this I am personally distressed that the situation information or whatever, and are basically left has arisen whereby people are in a situation to starve. I do not believe the average Aus- of absolute destitution. Many are not picked tralian would support that situation, so I up and even those who are picked up very would ask the minister to reconsider that. often do not have their situation catered for I have a couple of specific questions to try by any sort of safety net. I say that personal- and focus some of the issues here, and I do ly, but I know that there is also a considerable not want to prolong the debate too much. amount of concern amongst agencies such as Firstly, in regard to the cost figures that the St Vincent de Paul, Anglicare and City minister gave of about $13.3 million and Mission—organisations which are more at the $19.5 million a year, what are the actual coalface than we are. We do, in the course of numbers of people that they represent? Hope- our duties, run across very difficult situations fully that is not a secret. As for the other and people in great poverty. question, I ask: in relation to the recent I do not want to remind honourable senators appeals tribunal rulings that have received a of the reading about the rich man Dives and lot of publicity, is the department likely to Lazarus but we do have a considerable re- reconsider its directive to the regional offices sponsibility to address this issue and address about its interpretation of the clause ‘a sub- it urgently. I understand the point of view of stantial change of circumstances beyond their the chamber at the present moment. It appears control’. As part of the wash-up of reviewing that the feeling is that maybe this is not the 920 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 place to do it but I commend Senator Bartlett have found in favour of the migrants. That is for raising it here. I feel so strongly about it a pretty good example that it still works in at this time that I would like to support him this area and that if we make a decision that in this measure. is found to be outside the guidelines then the I was given certain indications, if that is the review process works. Senator, we are also word—rather than undertakings—that there reviewing the operation of the guidelines would be a satisfactory safety net in the form continuously. As I said to you, something like of a special allowance for those migrants 340 people were receiving this special benefit whose circumstances change significantly for as at January; it has been increasing month by reasons beyond their personal control after month. You might be interested to note that their arrival in Australia. I would like to know the rejection rate in the last three months has from the minister why that is being interpret- been trending down. In November last year, ed so narrowly. Those are the issues. We for example, 39 people were rejected; in really do need to have some indication from December, 28 were rejected; and in January, the government that the tragic circumstances 22 were rejected. of quite a number of newly arrived Senator Harradine—Out of how many? migrants—I cannot put a figure on it—will be Senator NEWMAN—I think it was out of alleviated. I remember that the government total claims of 173. Those figures could be did have regard to a number of things that I due to a couple of things. There could be raised, including the parenting allowance, the fewer people coming who were not adequate- maternity payments and so on. Clearly they ly advised at the beginning or who did not do alleviate the problems that are being take in the advice they got. It could be that experienced and about which other senators the initial operation of the guidelines has have made some comment. settled down and there is greater consistency It has been made perfectly clear to the across the Centrelink system. I cannot say, chamber that, without the social security Senator. Given the concerns that you have, payment, unemployed migrants are not enti- that trend over those three months has to be tled to access government labour market more reassuring. Rejection numbers are programs, transport concessions, which are reducing. At the same time we have a sub- rather important, particularly when looking for stantial number of people on the benefit and jobs in the larger cities, public housing, rent those that have been unsuccessful in getting assistance and so on. The impact of all of this the benefit—three cases, to my knowledge— in malnutrition and the declining health of have come through to the AAT and been some of those migrants is there to be seen. successful. Other people could have been No doubt the minister has received representa- successful at earlier levels either in the tions from a number of organisations. I authorised review officer process or in the thought that one of those organisations, the Social Security Appeals Tribunal process. I do Council for Social Services in New South not have that information here with me but Wales, did present a very thoughtful and well- that system is certainly still continuing and constructed letter which pointed out the available to migrants, many of whom had problems. It was that letter of 9 March 1998. some help from the Welfare Rights Centre. No doubt other honourable senators and the Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) minister have received a copy of that letter. (11.30 a.m.)—I looked at those figures that The minister may wish to comment on the the minister just gave us—39, 28 and 22. matters that have been raised with her by a Even if that was averaged at, say, 30 a month, number of groups and also now in the cham- that looks like it is over 300 a year. The ber. minister mentioned that there were 340 Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister migrants receiving special benefits, and it for Social Security) (11.27 a.m.)—As I said could be extrapolated that around half were to Senator Bartlett, the review system is being knocked back, that is, half of the people working. We are seeing the AAT cases which who actually know that they can have an Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 921 appeal. We know that the government has worst aspects of scapegoat politics. We know been very mean-spirited. Worse than that, I that this six-month waiting period was started believe it has denied basic human rights of by the previous government, but that is no many newly arrived migrants and people excuse. Senator Harradine, the Democrats and seeking to be migrants in terms of access to the Greens were on all of those occasions legal advice. We know that court costs have standing up strongly against that level of increased, we know that costs of justice have cheap politics, scapegoat politics, which was increased and we know that to do anything in intended basically to direct attention from the the system when you do not know that you economic and social outcomes of government have rights is almost impossible. I really think policies towards those people who cannot that these figures of 340 migrants and grow- easily fight back. ing could indicate a growing problem that is Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- perhaps massively more than the figures tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian actually portray. Democrats) (11.33 a.m.)—Briefly, I put in a I think the signal this government basically plea to the government to support the not is giving is that it is all right to come to unreasonable amendment that has been moved Australia if you are rich. If you have got by Senator Bartlett. I thank the minister and resources behind you, a big fat bank balance the government for accepting one of my or some rich relatives, that is just fine. But, if earlier amendments in relation to the waiting you are an ordinary person who has come to period for newly arrived residents, particularly Australia for a variety of reasons and have in relation to what we consider the retrospec- been accepted on the normal basis—and that tive aspects of that provision as it relates to is fairly restrictive these days—you are going the common youth allowance. This amend- to have a really hard time from this govern- ment relates to special benefits. Senator ment if you are not rich or if you are not Bartlett has outlined, as have other honourable immediately able to access jobs. We know it senators, many good reasons for the govern- is going to be really difficult if you do not ment accepting this, but I think that when we have access to language classes and other are talking about special benefits those argu- support and employment services. So it is all ments apply even more so. stacked against you from this government’s The Democrat opposition to the two-year point of view. waiting period has been put on the record I believe the reason is that it is really very squarely and many times. At the time we useful to have a group of people or several expressed our concern at the original inclu- groups of people that you can blame for the sion of benefits from disability wage and current economical woes. The government carer’s pension through to the common youth does not actually come out and say that, but allowance and, of course, parenting, maternity that is exactly the effect that it has. If you and special benefits. Senator Harradine is target migrants, refugees, unemployed and right in saying that some of those concerns Aboriginal people, you have a way of direct- were taken on board by the government when ing the anger of people of Australia who have the issue was re-debated, and it was a number had such a hard time over the past few years of times. But special benefits are the payment because of the current economic situation— of last resort for those people in the most not just about their levels of income but what anxious and dire straits, and we know that is happening with the things they can buy and people are in dire straits. the things they cannot buy, and what is As Senator Harradine pointed out to the happening with their own job security— chamber, we are all receiving correspondence towards those people who are not in a posi- from various community and advocacy tion to fight back. That is called scapegoat groups, in particular the Welfare Rights politics. This is, unfortunately, what we see, Centre, who have described cases of individu- and what the Greens (WA) and the Democrats als and families who are really unable to get are trying to do here is to redress some of the shelter, to feed themselves properly and to 922 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 attend AMEP classes. This is a reality. I share by interpretations of the AAT. If you check Senator Bartlett’s hope that the government is with your adviser you will find that is the not so harsh that it will reject this amend- case, Minister. The question that we need to ment, because it is in relation to those really determine here today is whether the provi- special cases. I thank the government again sions for special benefits that already exist are for taking on board one of my amendments, a sufficient safety net for immigrants who do though not quite our ambit claim amendment come here and who do, in most circum- in relation to the two-year waiting period, and stances, come here in very good faith. I hope that they will extend that logic and that concern to accepting Senator Bartlett’s Minister, you have said there have been a amendment before us. number of applications and in the last six months there have been some refusals. I Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (11.36 would be interested to know if you have any a.m.)—You may recall that we had this information about the basis of those refusals debate earlier about the extension of benefits and whether there were a large number of generally during that two-year waiting period refusals on the basis that their circumstances for immigrants. Clearly the opposition have had not changed. I would also be interested made a decision in that regard. Special ben- to know—as all sensible people making these efits are in a special category in that special sorts of decisions would like to know—the benefit is a payment of last resort, it is not an cost involved in the extension of special entitlement. Whatever other requirements benefits. Really, what we are saying is that must be satisfied, it is essentially discretion- the change of circumstances provision is no ary. It is a payment where all else fails. I longer required. Maybe the minister could suppose there is a general feeling in the provide us with that information. community that it should not be the Austral- ian taxpayer who supports people who decide Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister to emigrate to Australia and intentionally for Social Security) (11.40 a.m.)—In response come here knowing that they have no support to Senator Neal, I understand that the rejec- and believing that they are unlikely to be able tions of people have been, I think almost to obtain support for themselves while they entirely but certainly mostly, because there are here. has been no evidence of a change in circum- What is less clear and what is of concern to stances beyond their control, which is the the Labor opposition is whether it is accept- basic criterion. Essentially people have come able that, if people who do not immigrate here without adequate means to support them- with that intention but rather with the inten- selves. tion of supporting themselves by being em- I do not know how the family category can ployed or who have sufficient assets to look possibly cause a problem for people coming after themselves until they are employed find here because they are coming with a sponsor. themselves in circumstances where they If the sponsor dies or goes bankrupt, those are cannot support themselves or their families, considered to be circumstances beyond their we should wash our hands of them as a control and they are eligible for the special community and say, ‘We will do nothing. We benefit. It tends to be more of a problem for will allow you to remain without any support people in the skilled migrant class, some of at all.’ whom are coming regardless of the fact that, At the moment there is some provision that on any reasonable understanding—and they says that if circumstances have changed you are given information about the cost of living can, at the discretion of the secretary to the and also the employment circumstances in department, have access to that special ben- Australia—they come with a totally unrealist- efit, even if you are an immigrant or an ic idea of how they could keep themselves for immigrant family, within that two-year period. more than a week or two. Some people are It appears that that definition of changed coming hell or high water, as I understand it circumstances has been expanded somewhat from some of the cases that I have been Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 923 reading about. Does that answer what you phrases to describe people being determined were getting at? to come here ‘hell or high water’ I think gives Senator Neal—Yes. a bit of a strange signal about people we are legally allowing into the country. If we do not Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.42 want them to come in then we should not let a.m.)—I did ask a question of the minister to them in. Again, that is another debate on which I have not yet got a response, although immigration policy about which there would I can understand that, given that she has had different views. people throwing all sorts of requests and questions at her over the last half an hour or If we are going to allow people in through so. The question I asked was about the num- all of the appropriate processes and expect ber of claims represented by the $13.3 million them to, and indeed insist that they, contribute and the $19.5 million annual costs that she as much as they can to Australian society and provided earlier. Perhaps this is part of what our economy, if they find themselves with no the minister was just saying in terms of this means of support whatsoever—no options, probably not relating much to the family total destitution—then surely it is a funda- reunion and being more to do with skilled mental principle in those circumstances that migrants coming here without adequate means those people have the same right to the last of support or adequate funds. resort safety net as anybody who was born here or who is a legal resident of this country. I understand that recently the Minister for It astonishes me that such a discriminatory Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, Mr principle can be defended in a situation that Ruddock, indicated finetuning of the skilled does not apply to a large number of people. migrant program to put a higher requirement It applies to people who have fallen through on the amount of funds people would need to all of the nets available and who are in dire have before they could come to Australia. straits. One question I would ask is whether the minister can confirm that that is the case, We need to recognise that, if we are going without going down another sidetrack about to allow these people into the country, we the appropriateness of the direction of the have a duty as a civilised society to assist immigration policy of the government. That them. It gets back to what appears to be too is another issue we could talk about, but I tight a definition or interpretation of the will refrain. I would also ask the minister legislative provision about requiring a ‘sub- whether, assuming that my understanding is stantial change in circumstances beyond their correct, those likely changes coming into control’, and that hurdle having to be put on effect would possibly reduce the cost of the new migrants and nobody else. One of the measure that the Democrats are proposing examples among many—and there are any here today. number of case studies that have been provid- Again, it comes down to a basic situation ed by organisations that have had to deal with of people who have arrived legally in this this situation—which perhaps highlights more country and whom we have welcomed here. than most the way the application of that It is not a matter of people migrating here and provision is too tight is the example of a man walking straight down to the dole office; it is who came here as a skilled migrant—an a matter of people who migrate here and find engineer—from Bangladesh. His qualifications themselves, for whatever reason, without any and employment background had been closely means of support. That is what the special scrutinised by the Australian authorities benefit is about. It is a discretionary payment. before he came here. He did not bring a large It is about helping people who do not have a amount of money with him, which was sufficient livelihood and who have no alterna- obviously a bad idea, but that was all he had tive means of support. The basic principle left of his savings after all the costs of here is that we have people who are legal migrating. Australian residents and to whom we have He was not able to find work quickly, did said, ‘Yes, come to our country.’ Using not have adequate funds, et cetera, and ap- 924 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 plied for a special benefit. He did not succeed permanent residence and, upon her arrival, it initially. It went to the Social Security Ap- then became apparent that she had basically peals Tribunal, and this is one case where the been brought here by her sister to work as an appeals tribunal worked in an applicant’s fav- unpaid housekeeper and to care for the mother our and paid a special benefit. The minister who was suffering from dementia. It became may say that that again proves that the system a fairly abusive situation which involved is working but, according to the Welfare being subjected to domestic violence, et Rights Centre who assisted this client at the cetera. According to that case study, that tribunal, the reason why he won his appeal on client claimed a special benefit but was the grounds of changed circumstance was refused and there was no investigation into because he had become so destitute that he the domestic situation. That is another situa- was suffering from malnutrition and depres- tion where the department’s processes fell sion. That was determined by the tribunal to down somewhat, but those sorts of things are be the circumstances beyond his control—that going to happen. it was unreasonable for him to have perceived that he would get here and become malnour- As I mentioned before, in terms of the ished. If we are getting into a situation where attempts of the immigration department to be people have to become malnourished simply as efficient and as clear as possible, I am sure to be able to qualify for assistance then, they do try as hard as possible and I know surely, that is a situation that is totally unac- that Social Security tries as hard as possible, ceptable. I would urge the minister to look at but you are never going to get it perfectly that sort of situation and recognise that, right. You are going to get people who are in because of the way this legislation is being desperate situations coming in to apply and interpreted, it is not catching everybody and the officer at the counter will tell them, also recognise that, as a civilised country, we ‘Look, you came here less than two years have a duty to that small number of people— ago. You’re not eligible. Don’t bother apply- and I hope we eventually get those numbers— ing,’ rather than saying to them, Well, put it who are in situations where they have no in, we’ll test it out and we’ll see.’ That sort opportunity at all to support themselves. of situation can happen and, in those circum- stances, the person is not going to appeal It is probably worth bringing to the atten- because they have not applied and are not tion of the Senate and the minister some of aware of the opportunity to test their case. the case studies—and, as I said, there are a Quite reasonably, if they go to a government number available, and I will not go through department and the person who represents the all of them—that the Welfare Rights Centre department at the counter tells them that they has provided not only of the people who have are not eligible, they will take that on good gone through the Welfare Rights Centre but faith and go away. also those which they have provided on behalf of a wide range of organisations, Those sorts of situations can happen and mainly in the Sydney and New South Wales they are hard to track officially because they region. We have heard from the Migrant are not ones that enter the system. It is only Resource Centres of Illawarra and Newcastle when they come to the attention of specific and different parts of New South Wales, the community organisations that they can actual- Ethnic Community Councils, the Canterbury ly be measured and addressed, and I think it Bankstown Migrant Resource Centre, et is important to emphasise that point. Apart cetera. Some of the case studies that have from all those who are coming to the attention been provided relate specifically to people of these groups, how many others are there who were sponsored migrants and then found who are perhaps going into the underworld or themselves in situations where they were not illegal activities out of a need to support able to be adequately supported. themselves? They will not be picked up by these other organisations and they will not be One case study that was provided was of a contributing in a positive way to Australia if woman who was sponsored by her sister for they have to get into illegal or exploitative Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 925 situations to be able to survive. Again, I ask that I was reading recently, it was the urging the minister for the figures about the number of friends that persuaded a couple to come of cases. with what anybody would have thought would Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister have been totally inadequate funds to last for Social Security) (11.52 a.m.)—The answer them for any length of time at all. They were to Senator Bartlett is that the number of cases hell-bent on coming. They acknowledged that is 1,100 and 1,800. what they were told about employment opportunities and costs of living here did not Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (11.52 deter them. They came anyway. Their circum- a.m.)—Minister, I am not quite sure what you stances were hardly changed for reasons said then. beyond their control. Senator Newman—There were two figures: 1,100 and 1,800. Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (11.55 a.m.)—My concern ultimately is that, if you Senator NEAL—Were they the number of take away special benefits—the safety net; the applications? second net—from people who do not have Senator Newman—They were the number any family or friends who are prepared to of cases that were underpinning the dollar support them—I do not think that that would numbers that I gave you some time ago— be entirely unusual—the outcome appears to $13.3 million and $19.5 million. be that either they have no support at all, and Senator NEAL—Is that on an annual essentially they are unable to buy food or basis? shelter and eventually they will pass away and die, or they find illegal means of support- Senator Newman—For 1998-99 it was ing themselves. $13.3 million; for 1999-2000 it was $19.5 million. The number of people was 1,100 and Despite the obvious deterrent from not 1,800. providing special benefits to people who have been silly, stupid, thoughtless or irresponsible, Senator NEAL—Minister, one of the neither the proposition that some people will pertinent issues is what happens to those be entirely without support, in what is a people who do not have any means of support reasonably affluent country, nor the proposi- who seek the special benefit and do not get it. tion that they will find alternative support by Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister being involved in some sort of illegal income for Social Security) (11.53 a.m.)—Firstly, producing activity—criminal activities—is a some people will have family here. Even if particularly attractive outcome. Do you see they are not sponsors, one would expect that any other answer for that group of people families will support their own. Secondly, as besides those two answers and apart from the happened under your government, substantial alternative that you suggested, which is the payments are made by the Department of support of some groups. I was not sure Health and Family Services, I think, to the exactly which groups you meant, but you welfare organisations by way of emergency must mean the Salvation Army, Barnardos relief payments of some many millions of and people like that. dollars. We have increased that since we came into government. As I recall, in the first Senator Newman—Organisations that get year of government we worked with the government funding for that purpose. agencies to improve the formula on which Senator NEAL—My understanding of that funding is based. I am out of my own those sorts of groups, though they do a very territory here, but I think the funding is driven good job of providing supplementary type by demand. Those are two sources by which help, is that most people would not be able to people are assisted here. survive solely on that. Normally they provide If some of them do not have family here, things like limited food parcels and, in some they have close friends here who have been cases, emergency accommodation refuges. I urging them to migrate. In one of the cases am not certain how a person could exist 926 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 indefinitely on the sorts of provisions that are minister last year. I am also aware of the made by those organisations. AAT decisions and their significance. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister But what I believe we all need is more for Social Security) (11.57 a.m.)—Those information, more detailed information, which organisations provide the sort of support you is not readily available to us. I would like to are talking about as well as monetary assist- see, for example, an opportunity for these ance through this emergency relief fund. I organisations—welfare organisations and wish I could remember how much it was; it other organisations—and individuals to come is a very substantial amount of money. That before a committee to give that committee the is not to suggest that there is not always evidence and information upon which we can going to be needy people who need that help. make a valid decision, together with the I am not suggesting that it is a bottomless pit, information that we will receive from the but quite a lot of money goes in that direction various departments—Immigration, Foreign for these sorts of circumstances. Affairs and the Department of Social Security. In the discussion that we have had today I I do not know whether the committee have referred a couple of times to circum- would consider this possibility. Obviously, we stances beyond somebody’s control—for cannot adjourn this requested amendment instance, the sponsor dies or becomes bank- because that would hold up the legislation, rupt or the job is not there. In fact, there is a and I do not think it is in anybody’s interests very long list of criteria which are not binding to do that. I just wonder whether Senator on the secretary but are indicative of the sorts Bartlett might consider withdrawing the of circumstances which it would be reason- request at this stage—and he has other op- able to say were beyond people’s control. The tions, of course—and that would be on the secretary is not limited to that list. If the basis there is an understanding around the secretary believes the circumstances are chamber that the issue will be referred to a beyond a person’s control, then the secretary committee for a short hearing enabling this can exercise discretion. It is not something I matter to come back to us in time to deal with have any discretion over, of course, but the it in some legislation. secretary does. That is how it has been oper- ating. I personally would like to see it dealt with in the consequential legislation that comes Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (11.59 back. But I understand from the minister that a.m.)—I sense around the chamber a good that would cause a great number of difficul- deal of concern that maybe we do not have a ties with putting into place the legislation that grasp of all the situations of which we have we are passing now. But, as has been indicat- been advised. For example, it would be ed to me, there are other measures coming disconcerting if you have people who are in forward—the Social Security and Veterans’ desperate situations—and we know that there Affairs Legislation Amendment (Budget and are, such as new migrants. We have that Other Measures) Bill 1997—which can deal information not only from very good sources, with this particular matter. There would be no such as the Welfare Rights Centre, but also problem; that is an appropriate peg to hang from other excellent sources. I have gained such amendment on. the information independently as well, as no If we have the benefit of the work of a doubt have other honourable senators. committee on this particular matter—and I I have listened carefully to what Senator would hope that it does not go for very Neal has been saying, and she also has been long—if we have all the information, then we indicating the opposition’s concern about the can make a better judgment on a motion such prospects of persons living in destitution as this that is before us. I would hope that because of the administration, I suppose, or perhaps Senator Bartlett might consider that. interpretations that have been given to certain If he does not and chooses to go ahead with words in the statement that was made by the his request now, that is entirely up to him. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 927

Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (12.04 So I would like to proceed with my request- p.m.)—I thank Senator Harradine for his ed amendment. I do thank Senator Harradine attempts to try to progress the matter to an for his suggestion, but I think this is an issue eventually positive outcome. I think the that we will need to keep looking at in any suggestion he makes about getting the issue case. more thoroughly examined, getting some of Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (12.06 the people together who are involved in this p.m.)—That puts us in a bit of an awkward issue out in the community to address a position. I should have said, for the benefit of Senate committee, as well as departmental Senator Bartlett and his colleagues, that I was people, would be a very helpful thing in terms going to move, at the appropriate stage, to of clarifying and giving us some more of the add to the motion for the adoption of the specific detail of what the situation is out in committee report something like ‘and that the the community. following matter be referred to the Legal and Nonetheless, I might respectfully decline his Constitutional Committee for inquiry and kind offer and proceed with moving the report’—by a certain date—‘matters arising amendment. I do not want to delay the debate from the committee’s consideration of the any further on this, but I do think the bottom request for amendment, moved by Senator line is, as Senator Harradine himself said in Bartlett’—you see, you are there up in lights, his most recent contribution: we do know that Senator Bartlett—‘relating to newly arrived there are people in desperate need in the residents’ waiting period’. community now. For that reason, I believe Senator Bartlett perhaps was not aware that that this is an urgent matter that needs to be that very firm intention is there. I hope that addressed now. It is not one that is going to it would get the unanimous support of the go away. Regardless of whether this request committee when the time comes—and I hope goes down, as it may well—and I recognise that is in 10 minutes time. that the government is not disposed to accept it—or returns to the lower House, I think it is The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- important to at least signal the strength of tor Watson)—At a later time. concern about the situation as it stands now. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (12.07 As I have said, this matter is not going to p.m.)—This might give Senator Bartlett a few go away anyway. Hopefully, there will be an minutes to consider that. Yesterday the Senate opportunity—whether through the budget and passed a motion requiring the government to other measures bill, another social security produce certain documents by 12 noon today. bill or a specific reference—for this situation Has the government produced those docu- to be examined in a bit of detail by a Senate ments? committee. But I think at the moment, be- cause of the fact that there are people in need The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—The now in the community, it is incumbent on the Senate is in committee at the moment in Senate now to signal its position on this issue. relation to this bill. It is the view of the Democrats that it is Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister one where we should be recognising the need for Social Security) (12.08 p.m.)—The docu- that people have. It is not a situation where ments, I understand, are here. But if we table charities should be picking up the pieces. them right now we will interrupt the commit- They are there for emergency relief; they are tee stage of this bill coming to finality. not there to support people for one or two Senator Carr—You could table them by years. It is those groups who are pushing the leave. need for change because of the burden that is being placed on them, the drain on their Senator NEWMAN—I cannot table them resources, so that they cannot then utilise in the committee stage, I understand, Senator. those resources for other members of the I would if I could. community who are in crisis need. Senator Carr—But you will table them? 928 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Senator NEWMAN—Yes, I will table If other senators feel they still need more them. I give you that undertaking. information before they are convinced that it is a situation that should be changed, that is Senator WOODLEY—I am happy to fine for them to express. I can understand that accept that. situation. Hopefully, a committee inquiry Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) would provide that extra information. Whilst (12.09 p.m.)—I want to remind the chamber I am loath, with my minimal degree of ex- briefly that earlier I gave examples where, on perience in this chamber compared with issues like the age of independence, commit- Senator Harradine’s, to back my judgment tee after committee came up with very solid against the reasoning he has put forward, I suggestions about what that age of independ- still feel it appropriate to proceed with the ence should be. Governments have ignored specific request for amendment that I have that. So I would like to emphasise that it moved. would be good if this were advanced in a Question put: committee, whether or not this chamber votes on an amendment. We have had amendments That the request (Senator Bartlett’s) be agreed before. It should not make any difference to to. whether the government is willing to bring The committee divided. [12.16 p.m.] this up in a committee. (The Chairman—Senator S. M. West) Ayes ...... 32 I would not like to think there was a gun to Noes ...... 33 anyone’s head not to move amendments —— because the government will not look at Majority ...... 1 things in a committee if they do put amend- —— ments, because that would be a breach of the AYES separation of powers and it would potentially Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. be the minister interfering in the role of the Bishop, M. Bourne, V. Senate. I am sure the ministry would not do Brown, B. Campbell, G. such a thing. But I am sure that, if there is a Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. willingness to look at things further in a Conroy, S. Cooney, B. committee stage, this chamber and the com- Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. Evans, C. V. * Forshaw, M. G. munity would be very grateful. I would like Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. to think that, unlike things like the age of Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. majority, the age of independence, whatever Mackay, S. Margetts, D. positive outcome came from that committee McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. would be taken on board and brought in in a Murray, A. Neal, B. J. positive way to amending legislation in that O’Brien, K. W. K. Quirke, J. A. Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. regard. Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (12.10 West, S. M. Woodley, J. p.m.)—To respond briefly to Senator NOES Harradine’s further elaboration and try to give Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. it due consideration in the short space of time Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. available, I understand what he is suggesting Coonan, H. Crane, W. in referring the matter to a committee via a Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. motion at the end of the committee stage. I Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. understand that can be done anyway and, as Gibson, B. F. Harradine, B. I said in my previous contribution, I think that Heffernan, W. Hill, R. M. would be a good idea. I would still like to Kemp, R. Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. proceed simply because I think there is a clear MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. situation of need now and I would like to Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. indicate the Democrats’ position at this stage O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. of how serious we think this matter is. Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 929

NOES Next year, 1999, would have been a par- Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. ticularly difficult year. Young people who left Tierney, J. Vanstone, A. E. school at the beginning of this year in year 10 Watson, J. O. W. or 11 and who might have been looking for PAIRS work—many of them living independently— Bolkus, N. Knowles, S. C. Collins, R. L. Troeth, J. would be forced back into a school that they Cook, P. F. S. Tambling, G. E. J. left 12 months earlier. This would have been Faulkner, J. P. Alston, R. K. R. an one-off situation next year and something Ray, R. F. Herron, J. of a nightmare for schools. As a former * denotes teller teacher I can tell you that students who do Question so resolved in the negative. not want to be in school can make it very Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (12.20 difficult for those who do. There are students p.m.)—I seek leave to reconsider a request who some years ago would have left school moved by Senator Neal that has been agreed at year 10 or 11 and taken on a proper ap- to and to move a Democrat amendment to it. prenticeship or gone straight into jobs—jobs which are largely non-existent these days. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister for Social Security) (12.20 p.m.)—I advise As governments have wound back spending Senator Allison that the government is not on education and adopted a return to basics intending to oppose her amendment. approach to schooling, the sorts of alternative Leave granted. programs that were once available in technol- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (12.21 ogy, the arts, outdoor education and that kind p.m.)—I move: of thing have largely disappeared too. Princi- pals will tell you that the alienation, particu- That the House of Representatives be requested larly of boys, in senior secondary school is a to make the following amendment: huge problem, in fact the biggest issue that (1) Page 2 (after line 2), after clause 2, insert: they face. These young people do much better 2A Application in the TAFE system, where they are surround- Subsection 543A(2) does not apply to a person ed by adults, but that is not an option for 16- who last left school more than 12 months before and 17-year-olds whose families are on low the commencement of this Act. incomes. The fact is that most of them would Thank you, Minister; it is good to know that have to go back to the school that they left. the government will support this amendment. For those who have already left and no doubt think themselves adults, to return to school It will go a long way to addressing the prob- uniforms, a timetable and no real change in lems that schools foresee in this legislation. the programs would not necessarily be a The effect of the Democrats’ amendment is to happy experience. remove the obligation of 16- and 17-year-olds who had already left school at the beginning It goes without saying that the Democrats of this year to return next year in order to be support the idea that young people should eligible for the youth allowance. So it takes stay in education for as long as possible, but that away. This effectively is a phasing in this bill effectively raises the school leaving approach and removes the retrospectivity of age to 18 and will cost state governments— the measure. We also welcome the according to my calculations—an extra $52 government’s move to defer the implementa- million every year. That is what it will cost tion of this bill from July this year to January those governments to accommodate the extra 1999. The difficulties that schools would face 13,000 students. Of course, this will have to in taking back 13,000 students—and I think come out of federal assistance grants. No that is a conservative estimate—two-thirds of doubt the states are not pleased with this the way through the school year has been arrangement, especially coming on top of the recognised. I think that is much to the relief EBA cut of $11.9 million this year and higher of principals, parents and teachers. EBA cuts each year thereafter. 930 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

The federal government is tipping in $22.66 there a special allowance for that? Apparently million over four years for special programs not. related to the return of these students. That The government says it will not give the works out to be just $435 per student. The money to schools on a simple per capita reason I wanted to speak to this amendment, basis. That is unfortunate. Presumably, the even though the government is supporting it, schools cannot be trusted to manage that is that I wanted to get the minister’s assurance money. This idea of schools having to bid for that this money will not be reduced at all by the money, regardless of how many of these this amendment. students they have, is fairly ridiculous, given that this kind of project does not lend itself to The federal government will pay a $550 per that competitive ethos, especially when there capita grant on average to these students who just simply is not enough money around. are in schools, but the rest will have to be Presumably it will be a question of who found by state governments. That is, of writes the best, most sparkly application course, if they find it at all and do not expect which will determine which school gets the the schools to simply do more for less. As we money. know, it costs around $4,500 to educate a student in a government school. However, the I have those reservations. The Democrats principals estimate that the cost to provide are pleased that the government is supporting worthwhile programs for returning students is this, but I needed to get on the record those more like $7,500. Instead of providing $435 other serious concerns that schools have about per student for the so-called full risks or at having inadequate funding for what will be risk programs, the Commonwealth ought to be very necessary programs for these students providing around $3,000 extra for this meas- who would otherwise have left school and be ure. looking for jobs at 16 or 17. Senator CARR (Victoria) (12.28 p.m.)— Another matter I wanted to raise was the The opposition supports this amendment. In fact that there is no money in the proposed doing so, I draw the attention of the Senate to budget for capital works. There will be some concerns we have about these proposals another 13,000 students in the school system. put by the government. I emphasise that our By my calculations, if that is 30 students per fundamental concern is that this government classroom as it is in Victoria by and large, is introducing a policy here without proper that is an extra 400 classrooms and there is no consideration of its practical implications for money here for capital works. our education system in particular, and of course for families in terms of their require- I have concerns about the process for ment for families to meet additional expendi- distribution of this money. This $22.66 ture, many of whom will not have the money million over four years is a very small sum of available to fulfil that additional commitment. money. Schools must put in bids to a state Our concern also is for the schools and TAFE board committee which will somehow be systems of this country which we require to gathered at a regional level, and that is not take on additional responsibilities without entirely sorted out yet. Schools will not adequate resourcing. necessarily get the funding. They will have to go through a bidding process and they may There may well be quite significant damag- well lose. Questions arise about what happens ing effects to a much greater number of to the schools that do not get any funding. students and their opportunities in life as a What happens if they end up with two extra consequence of not providing the resources classrooms full of students? What happens if necessary to adequately provide for the that school does not get the funding? Is it additional students that are being required intended that the students would go elsewhere now to rejoin the education system. where the program was in place? How will I say this because we must bear in mind the those schools cope with that? Is it expected nature of the particular students we are talking that students will travel to other schools? Is about in this bill. The Department of Employ- Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 931 ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs system is to be more effective, it has to be and, I expect, the Department of Social able to provide more relevant experiences for Security would have by now appreciated that those students. That inevitably means that the students who are affected by this meas- there are additional requirements upon school ure—that is, people who have been unem- authorities, particularly teachers, which have ployed for some period of time and are being to be met in terms of providing that service forced back into the education system—will to those particular students with learning have particular learning difficulties and social difficulties. This government has not provided disadvantages which have a profound effect the resources to back up this initiative in that on the capacity of those people to actually do regard. well at school. The government talks about expanding The very fact that students were forced out educational opportunities. It says, ‘We will of the education system is all too often a have VET in schools. We will provide $20 reflection on the failure of the education million out of ANTA funds and give that to system to actually provide for the special the schools.’ It does not explain what moneys needs of students, many of whom are often are provided to back that up in terms of in- described as at risk—that is, in educational service training, curriculum development or jargon, they are students who leave school the provision of resources. Equally, it says, early because of their low levels of school ‘We have to get the industry more involved achievement. That is due to their low literacy in the delivery of specific programs.’ Again, levels, often because of their low numeracy it does not address the practical problems. levels and because they have particular These expressions are easy to draw attention learning difficulties which are the result of a to but they are not easy to develop programs range of factors, including social and physio- around without the necessary funding to back logical or economic factors which relate to the them up. capacity of students to do well at school. This is a position that the states have The very fact that these particular students identified. The states have identified their will often come from families who have concern only too clearly. Senator Allison has suffered family dislocation, itinerancy, vio- given figures which show a $53 million lence, abuse, poverty and homelessness; have shortfall in the states’ resources—that is, an a record of truancy and may well have a additional demand on the states to meet the record of substance abuse. These are the sorts requirements of the 13,000 extra places. She of issues that the Department of Employment, bases her figures on a calculation of about Education, Training and Youth Affairs drew $4,500 per place. That is a very modest view to the attention of the government and which of the cost of educational places. It is certain- this government has failed to respond to. It ly not the costs that the states themselves has failed to respond to those fundamental have put to the Commonwealth with regard to questions about providing the necessary various submissions through the Common- resources for students, particularly those at wealth-state educational forums. The Victori- risk of educational failure. Failure is a word an government, for instance, calculated an that I do not like using but I think it often amount of $7,000 per spot and argued that explains in simple terms the consequences of they were some $40 million short in Victoria people not being able to achieve well educa- alone as a result of this government’s initia- tionally. tives and requirements by this government to The fact is that people leave the school meet those matters. system as a result of a range of factors. We A similar pattern emerges with the TAFE cannot simply say that it is because they do colleges. It is often the case that the schools not want to be there. They do not want to be themselves will not be able to cope with these there because of the social, economic and particular students. This amendment points to often physical conditions that they have to the fact that they are not excluded from TAFE endure. It seems to me that if the school colleges. Here again, you will see very sub- 932 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 stantial sums of money being withdrawn from and access programs—are not moneys that go the TAFE system by this government and towards the schools. These are in fact moneys demands by the states to meet additional that are supposed to be used out of the school requirements in terms of Commonwealth arena. So you cannot actually argue that the programs, yet no additional money has been government has provided additional resources provided by the Commonwealth to meet the for the education system, but has provided requirements under their new ANTA arrange- them for a period of transition from school to ments. In fact, we have no new ANTA agree- work. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, ment to meet these particular initiatives that but it does not address this fundamental are being proposed by the government. What problem. we do have though is the government an- We have the issue of the way in which nouncement on 28 January that it will provide these funds are being distributed. I am greatly some $42 million. I say that that is $100 concerned, given the run-down of the depart- million short on what has been proposed by ment, that there will not be the resources the Department of Employment, Education, available through the department itself, given Training Youth Affairs through its cabinet the way in which the Department of Employ- processes. What this government produces is ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs $42 million or thereabouts. has been gutted, to be able to administer these One of the initiatives is for a full service programs effectively and to ensure that the school for students at risk. But in the esti- money actually goes to the people who need mates process we were not able to establish it, as distinct from being dished out on a basis what it is that the government means by the of some sort of shoddy bidding process which concept of a full service school. There is no does not guarantee that the money actually definition given and no understanding within goes to the places that it is actually needed. the bureaucracy of what that term actually We still do not have within this government means. Again, it looks great on a press re- an understanding of where these particular lease. You can go around the country, put students are going to be located. There is no your hand on your heart and say, ‘We care.’ sense, from the estimates answers I have, that But you do not actually do anything in a the government has commitments from the practical way to actually assist the people that states or an understanding of the particular you are obliging to enter into these particular regions other than the most broadest concept programs. of the impact of these measures. They are not So what you have is an initiative being able to actually identify the school districts, taken, as I understand it—a name taken from the school regions, where the additional the American education system—and applied resources will need to go. They say, ‘That’s to Australia without any understanding of the all up to the states; we’ll let someone else cultural conditions in this country or without worry about that; and we’ll let someone worry the resources that go into the American about that in the fullness of time.’ education system. Americans fund their public Meanwhile, this is a program that is due to education system at a much higher level than come into operation from the beginning of we do in this country. So we have a govern- next year. They had to put it back six months ment engaging in a highly cynical device— because the administrative arrangements were telling people that they are concerned about not in place. I say that they are still not in their sons and daughters but not concerned place. But what we have is a program being enough to provide the resources necessary to initiated by the government which has no real ensure that they get a fair go when they are understanding of the social and educational forced back into the education system itself. consequences of its actions. As a conse- The initiatives that the government has quence, while we support the amendment, we proposed and the Prime Minister announced raise these concerns with the Senate and in a hail of publicity in late January—the jobs express our very deep frustration with the pathway program and new apprenticeships government, which seems to be so intent upon Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 933 undermining our educational system and NATIVE TITLE LEGISLATION undermining the opportunities of tens of Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (12.43 thousands of Australians. p.m.)—by leave—The Senate passed its Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister motion requesting the tabling of legal advice for Social Security) (12.40 p.m.)—I want to provided to government on the application of advise Senator Allison that, although the section 57 of the constitution to the Native question she asked really relates to the port- Title Amendment Bill. In his comments folio of Senator Ellison, as I understand it, the yesterday, Senator Woodley suggested that the $42.6 million is currently being negotiated by government had given no indication of when Senator Ellison with the states. Beyond that, advice was obtained. I draw the Senate’s I cannot say. attention to the answer tabled yesterday by Request agreed to. the Minister for Justice, Senator Vanstone, on behalf of the Attorney-General in response to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— a question from Senator Lees. That answer Senator Carr, I understand you have an made clear that the government had obtained amendment that you wish to withdraw. legal advice on this issue prior to making its Senator CARR (Victoria) (12.40 p.m.)— decision to expressly indicate its disagreement Does the government agree with that amend- to the various Senate amendments to the ment? Native Title Amendment Bill by laying the bill aside. Senator Newman—I understood that you were going to seek leave to withdraw it. The government also made clear yesterday that it opposes any motion calling for the Senator CARR—No. tabling of legal advice. This is the position Senator Newman—Well, the government that has consistently been taken by successive does not think very highly of the drafting, but governments, whether ALP or coalition. we will not oppose you. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! It is Senator CARR—My amendment reads: after 12.45 p.m. Schedule 2, item 8, page 124 (line 26), at end of Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to con- subsection (4), add "This age will be progressively tinue my remarks. reduced over time.". Leave granted. Amendment agreed to. Senator CALVERT—The Attorney-Gener- Bill, as amended, agreed to, subject to al has, however, provided to Senator Woodley requests. a letter which he sent to the Special Minister Bill reported with amendments and requests. of State and Minister assisting the Prime Minister, Senator Minchin, in relation to the Adoption of Report comments made by the Clerk of the Senate on Motion (by Senator Newman) proposed: section 57 of the constitution. That letter makes clear the government’s position on this That the report from the committee be adopted. issue. I have been authorised by the Attorney- Amendment (by Senator Harradine) General and Senator Minchin to table that agreed to: letter. The government is keen to make clear At the end of the motion, add: "and that the to the Senate the nature of this legal advice following matter be referred to the Legal and and the reason it is entirely confident of its Constitutional Legislation Committee for inquiry position, a position which has been supported and report by 2 April 1998: at all times by experts in constitutional law. The operation of the special benefit provisions It is important, however, that legal profession- relating to the newly arrived resident’s waiting al privilege is respected and maintained by period". the Senate. Original question, as amended, resolved in A key concern of Senator Woodley appears the affirmative. to be the reliance made by the clerk on some 934 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 obiter comments made by then Chief Justice for determining when the House can pass a bill a Barwick in the 1975 High Court case, Vic- second time. He was rejecting the argument that the toria v. the Commonwealth. Senators should period could be taken to have commenced at the time of first passage of the bill by the House. His note that the context of these Barwick com- statement cannot properly be understood as requir- ments relate to when the three-month period ing that a bill be returned to the Senate. Elsewhere for the purposes of section 57 is calculated; in the passage in question, Barwick CJ refers to a that is, from the time first passed by the requirement that the attitude of the House to the House or as a result of the Senate’s actions. amendments must be decided and ‘must be made In his letter, the Attorney-General sets out the known’ before the interval of three months could run. I do not read that as a requirement that the government’s position as follows: House must return the bill to the Senate. I do not consider that use of the words ‘will not agree’ in s.57 imposes any requirement that there The conclusion sought to be derived from this be an opportunity for the Senate to reconsider its statement by Barwick CJ was not, in any event, position on amendments disagreed to by the House. supported by two other judges, as referred to above. Rather, at most it indicates that the House must The Attorney-General, the first law officer of make clear its rejection of the Senate amendments. the Commonwealth, has succinctly stated the In my view, the interpretation the Government government’s position. This letter reflects the gives to s.57 is supported by the wording of s.57 government’s legal advice—advice confirmed itself. If there were a requirement that a bill be by independent constitutional law experts. considered twice by the Senate, one would expect to see that stated expressly in the Constitution. The Before I table a copy of that letter for the High Court has indicated its reluctance to read benefit of all senators, I would also like to words into s.57 that are not there: Western Austral- make the point that Senator Woodley had a ia v. Commonwealth (1975) 134 CLR 201. I find full briefing on the government’s legal advice nothing in the words ‘will not agree’ that supports from the acting Solicitor-General. Senator the conclusion that the disagreement must be a Woodley, is that correct? I see Senator disagreement evidenced by a second consideration of the Senate amendments. The conclusion I have Woodley is nodding. reached is, in my opinion, also consistent with the I now table a copy of that letter for the object of s.57, namely, that its mechanisms be benefit of all senators. We should now get on available once there is a clear disagreement be- tween the two Houses with the more important and relevant legisla- tive function of this House and pass the There is little judicial guidance in relation to this Native Title Amendment Bill, which has been aspect of s.57 but what little there is appears to support the Government’s position—see Victoria v. reintroduced to the Senate. Commonwealth (1975) 134 CLR 81, 149-150 per Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (12.50 Gibbs J, 167 per Stephen J. p.m.)—I seek leave to make a short statement I guess you understand all of that, Senator in response to that, because I have already Woodley? received all of that information. Senator Woodley—I do. Leave granted. Senator CALVERT—It continues: Senator WOODLEY—I note that the Both these judges clearly contemplated that the government whip has made it quite clear that formal indication by the House of its disagreement the government does intend to defy the order with Senate amendments would be sufficient for of the Senate to show the people the legal compliance with the first stage of s.57. framework upon which we may now be There is a passage by Barwick CJ in Victoria v. hurtling towards a $60 million double dissolu- Commonwealth (1975) 134 CLR 81 at 125 that tion election on the Wik legislation. appears to be relied upon by the Clerk. Barwick CJ says that it cannot be said that ‘there are amend- The government has claimed that all ments to which the House will not agree until the government legal advice is protected, but we processes which parliamentary procedure provides are advised that since 1993 the Common- have been explored’ (emphasis in original). A consideration of the paragraph as a whole shows wealth government has complied with orders that Barwick CJ was concerned with the question of the Senate to supply legal advice on three of the commencement of the three months period occasions—that was the previous government. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 935

So, contrary to the government’s argument, NRS Levy Imposition Bill 1997 and the there is a precedent for tabling such advice. Telecommunications Amendment Bill (No. 2) The question the Democrats want answered 1997. They are being debated at a non-contro- is: did the government seek formal, independ- versial time so obviously everybody else ent legal advice on how to prepare the Wik supports them. There are some minor amend- legislation as a double dissolution trigger, or ments in the package but there are two im- did they slip up on their way to the airport in portant points about the National Relay the Christmas rush on 6 December? We now Service. have that answer, and it is yes. We have This bill will enable non-carriers to be pursued this issue to highlight what we eligible for the provisions of the NRS. In the suspect is the case: that the government had new competitive market that we now have not sought formal, independent legal advice with carriers and non-carriers providing on how to prepare the Native Title Amend- telecommunications services, that is a useful ment Bill for a double dissolution election. and necessary development. The other point We note that three ministers, Senator is that the funds for the provision of the Minchin, Senator Vanstone and Attorney- National Relay Service will be paid on a General Daryl Williams, have avoided our quarterly basis rather than on a yearly basis. questions about whether the government This helps carriers and non-carriers with their sought formal independent legal advice prior cash flow. At the moment about $7 million a to setting the Wik bill aside in December last year is provided. year. I acknowledge, however, that the The National Relay Service is an excellent government had legal advice, certainly from service that provides people who are hearing the Solicitor-General. We have no way of or speech impaired with access to a standard knowing because the government is refusing telephone service on terms and in circum- to table its legal advice. That was the precise stances comparable with those that other order of the Senate. So every reasonable voter Australians have to a standard telephone is entitled to believe that there is a doubt over service. This bill enhances that service for the validity of any bill passed by a future those people with those impairments. In the joint sitting of both houses of parliament. I future, with the development of more and believe that the Liberals have made a mistake more sophisticated value-added services and and they do not want to admit it. The main telecommunications, I have no doubt that point is: what is this government hiding? there will be consideration given to the Sadly, it appears that we might not know until National Relay Service not just being provid- after this country goes through the enormous ed to the standard telephone but to those other disruption of a $60 million double dissolution add-on services. I do not know what the cost election on race, only to have the High Court of that would be but that will have to be strike down the Wik bill after it is passed in debated at the time. One can imagine that, a joint sitting because the government failed with all the new on-line, broadband and to do a bit of procedural housekeeping. Time Internet services, sooner or later, and quite will tell. rightly, people will say that they should be available to those who have those impair- NRS LEVY IMPOSITION BILL 1997 ments of hearing or speech. The opposition TELECOMMUNICATIONS commends the bill to the Senate and looks AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) 1997 forward to its speedy passage. Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Second Reading for Social Security) (12.56 p.m.)—I thank the Debate resumed from 9 March, on motion Senator for his contribution. by Senator Newman: Question resolved in the affirmative. That these bills be now read a second time. Bills read a second time, and passed Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) through their remaining stages without (12.53 p.m.)—The opposition supports the amendment or debate. 936 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

NATIONAL ENVIRONMENT Committee’s inquiry that the Commonwealth does PROTECTION MEASURES not intend to apply provisions of State or Territory environment law to its activities as a first option (IMPLEMENTATION) BILL 1997 for implementation. However, the structure of the Report of the Environment, Recreation, Bill ensures that the Commonwealth Environment Minister considers the application of provisions of Communications and the Arts Legislation State or Territory environment law to Common- Committee wealth activities before considering the use of Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (12.58 regulations under Part 4. The Bill reflects the p.m.)—On behalf on Senator Patterson I Commonwealth’s intent to apply provisions of State and Territory environment law to Commonwealth present the report of the Environment, Recrea- activities under the recent COAG Heads of Agree- tion, Communications and the Arts Legisla- ment on Commonwealth/State responsibilities for tion Committee on the National Environment the environment. Protection Measures (Implementation) Bill Where State or Territory law is not the mechanism 1997 [1998] together with submissions. for implementation of a particular national environ- Ordered that the report be printed. ment protection measure, there is an obligation on Commonwealth authorities to implement the Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to have measure either through an existing Commonwealth the tabling statement incorporated in Hansard. law which will deliver the necessary environmental Leave granted. outcomes, through Commonwealth regulations or through an environment management plan. The The document read as follows— government intends that this option will be used I table the Committee’s report on the National where an activity or premises have been exempted Environment Protection Measures (Implementation) from Parts 2 or 3 (applying State laws) or Part 4 Bill 1997. (implementation by Commonwealth regulations) on the ground of ‘a matter of national interest’. This bill represents the commitment of the Commonwealth and the States and Territories to The bill provides for community consultation in the work co-operatively to implement national environ- preparation of environmental management plans. ment protection measures developed by the Nation- COMPLIANCE AND ACCOUNTABILITY al Environment Protection Council—a commitment which was made by the Council of Australian The Commonwealth and the States and Territories Governments in the Intergovernmental Agreement will have to comply with national environment on the Environment in 1992. protection measures. The government intends that an exemption from implementing a particular The National Pollutant Inventory has recently been measure at a certain Commonwealth place or with adopted by the National Environment Protection regard to a specific Commonwealth activity will Council, and other national environment protection ONLY be given on the ground of a matter of measures are now at draft stage. ‘national interest’, as defined in the bill. IMPLEMENTATION OF NATIONAL ENVI- The definition of ‘national interest is not intended RONMENT PROTECTION MEASURES IN to be the basis for widespread exemptions from the COMMONWEALTH JURISDICTION application by the Commonwealth of provisions of The bill provides several means by which the State and Territory law and total exemptions are Commonwealth can implement national environ- expected to be rare. The government intends that ment protection measures in its jurisdiction. Those any such site or activity which is exempted will be means are: subject to an environmental audit and environment 1. applying provisions of State and Territory management plan under Part 5. laws, by declaration of the Commonwealth There were some concerns in submissions to the Environment Minister. inquiry about the extent of the Environment 2. making regulations. Minister’s discretion in the bill. While re-iterating the intention to apply State or Territory environ- 3. using an existing Commonwealth law which ment law as a first option, the level of discretion can deliver appropriate environmental out- available to the Environment Minister reflects the comes. need for flexibility in deciding which mechanism 4. carrying out an environmental audit and is likely to provide the most appropriate environ- preparing an environmental management plan. mental outcomes. The government envisages that applying State and Non-compliance with a national environment Territory laws will be the first option considered. protection measure by a Commonwealth authority There was a perception in submissions to the will be published in the Gazette, and the details of Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 937 authorities not complying will also be publicly mentary Service staff is to serve the Parliament as available through the annual report to Parliament a whole. on implementation of the measures. The bill is identical to the bill that was passed by CONCLUSION the House on 30 October 1997. It had been intro- National environment protection measures will duced into the House on 23 October 1997 and was ensure that people, wherever they live in Australia, amended following the report of the then Joint enjoy equivalent protection from air, water, soil Committee of Public Accounts into the Public pollution and noise, and secondly. They will ensure Service Bill 1997. The Senate returned the Public that decisions by business are not distorted and Service legislation and the Parliamentary Service markets are not fragmented by variations between Bill with amendments to which the House dis- jurisdictions in environmental protection. There will agreed, and the three bills were laid aside on 5 be greater certainty for business, and a greater December 1997. capacity for industry to manage environmental The Parliamentary Service Bill follows as much as issues which cross State borders. possible the philosophy, content and structure of The Bill provides the framework by which the the Public Service Bill 1997, which changes Commonwealth is able to implement NEPMs in its significantly the structure of public service employ- jurisdiction in all circumstances. The application of ment, with certain modifications necessary to provisions of State or Territory environment law ensure the independence of the Parliament from may not always achieve the most appropriate executive government. It establishes an employment outcomes, though the Commonwealth will apply framework which mirrors that proposed for the provisions of State and Territory environment law Australian Public Service generally and provides as the first option and wherever possible. specifically for the reciprocal mobility of staff between the two services without loss of accrued PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE BILL entitlements. Arrangements will also be put in place 1997 [No. 2] to ensure mobility for staff currently engaged under the Members of Parliament (Staff) Act. First Reading There are significant differences between the Bill received from the House of Representa- Parliamentary and Public Service Bills which recognise that staff in parliamentary departments tives. serve the Houses of the Parliament. That distinction Motion (by the Deputy President) agreed is reflected in the first object of the bill which is to to: establish an apolitical Parliamentary Service that is efficient and effective in serving the Parliament. That this bill may proceed without formalities The Parliamentary Service Bill contains a statement and be now read a first time. of Parliamentary Service values and a Code of Bill read a first time. Conduct, provides for the appointment of a Parlia- mentary Service Commissioner, makes specific Second Reading reference to the offices of Clerk of the Senate and of the House of Representatives, and provides for The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (12.59 appointments to those offices. Tenure as Clerk of p.m.)—I move: either House will be for one ten-year period. The That this bill be now read a second time. bill also stipulates conditions for earlier termination of those appointments. Occupants of the office may I seek leave to have the second reading retire earlier once they attain the age of 55 years. speech incorporated in Hansard. Secretaries, other than Clerks, are to be appointed Leave granted. by the Speaker and the President for five year terms with termination arrangements similar to The speech read as follows— those applying to secretaries of executive depart- The bill I have just presented provides, for the first ments. There are transitional arrangements to time, for the establishment and administration of a ensure the continuation in office of current heads separate Parliamentary Service to support the of parliamentary departments. operations of the Houses of the Australian Parlia- In broad terms, the Presiding Officers will have the ment. The staff at present providing the Parliament same employment powers as Ministers under the with its support services operate under adminis- Public Service Bill with advice from the Parlia- trative and staffing structures established by the mentary Service Commissioner. Consistent with the Public Service Act 1922; however it has been need to preserve the independence of the Clerks as decided that the parliamentary administration impartial advisers, the Clerks of the House of should have its own legislation which recognises Representatives and of the Senate are not to be and mandates that the primary obligation of Parlia- subject to direction from the Presiding Officers in 938 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 relation to the nature of their advice provided with until the first day of the winter sittings, in respect to either House, to members or senators or accordance with standing order 111. to committees. Secretaries of parliamentary depart- ments, including the Clerks, cannot be directed in PUBLIC SERVICE BILL 1997 [No. 2] relation to the exercise of their powers in respect of specific individuals. The Presiding Officers will PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT have the power to give secretaries of parliamentary (CONSEQUENTIAL AND departments, including the Clerks, general direc- TRANSITIONAL) AMENDMENT BILL tions relating to the management and leadership of the Parliamentary Service. 1997 [No. 2] The bill also creates the new office of Parlia- First Reading mentary Service Commissioner with a role similar Bills received from the House of Represen- to that of the Public Service Commissioner. The Parliamentary Service Commissioner will have the tatives. task of advising the Presiding Officers with respect Motion (by Senator Newman) agreed to: to the management practices and policies of the That these bills may proceed without formalities, Parliamentary Service and, if requested by the may be taken together and be now read a first time. relevant Presiding Officer, of investigating and reporting on specific issues. Bills read a first time. While the bill provides specifically that the Parlia- Second Reading mentary Service Commissioner is to be appointed separately and independently by the Presiding Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister Officers, it is expected that normally the same for Social Security) (1.00 p.m.)—I move: person would fill both of these offices. This would That these bills be now read a second time. assist in ensuring overall comparability and consis- tency between the two services. However the bill I seek leave to have the second reading specifically provides that the Commissioner cannot speeches incorporated in Hansard. be subject to direction by executive government in Leave granted. relation to the Parliamentary Service. The speeches read as follows— Secretaries of parliamentary departments, including the two Clerks, are to have the same employment PUBLIC SERVICE BILL 1997 [No. 2] powers as those proposed for departmental secreta- The Public Service Bill 1997 provides a legal ries in the Australian Public Service. framework for Australian Public Service employ- As mentioned earlier, the bill incorporates a legally ment which achieves an optimum balance between enforceable Code of Conduct and a statement of improved accountability and devolved responsibility Parliamentary Service Values. These values reflect so as to maximise the efficiency and effectiveness the fact that staff serve the Houses but in other of the Australian Public Service needed for the 21st respects mirror those of the Public Service Bill, century. with a parallel reference to the requirement that When the Government came to power in 1996 it employment decisions in the Parliamentary Service realised that many of the inefficiencies of the be based on merit. public service were not the fault of individual public servants but a systemic failure which has its In summary, this bill gives legislative effect to the primary, but not sole cause, in the legal framework decision that the parliamentary administration and the employment arrangements governing the should not continue to be covered by the standard public service. Australian Public Service Act. It establishes a statu- tory framework and administrative arrangements It was evident that the Government needed to broadly consistent with those for the public service change the legislative framework if high performing while incorporating the changes necessary to organisations were to be achieved. accommodate the unique circumstances of serving We acted quickly to develop new legislation in the Houses. It provides the Houses with a set of three areas crucial to the competitiveness of the arrangements which will allow them to continue to APS: financial management, workplace relations attract and provide a career for those staff who will and the Public Service Bill. We have been success- be equipped to deliver the high level of service the ful in implementing two of these, but the third, the Houses currently enjoy. Public Service Bill was amended by the Senate. I commend the bill to the Senate. The Government will not be deterred from complet- ing its reform of the APS by the short-sighted Ordered that further consideration of the obstruction of the Opposition and minor parties. second reading of these bills be adjourned The effect of this obstruction is simply to frustrate Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 939 the very many people in the public service who are The Opposition amendments do not recognise the keen to press ahead with a reform agenda in the increasing need for APS agencies to be freed from development of which they have had an important central controls and to adopt employment arrange- role and which they see clearly is essential for ments which meet their particular needs. This Bill building morale and opportunities for the future. provides that flexibility. This is the same as the Bill that was passed by the The pressures for public service reforms have not House of Representatives on 30 October 1997. It slackened. The Government is determined to bring had been introduced into the House of Representa- public service employment arrangements into line tives on 26 June 1997 and immediately referred to with community standards; to enable the public the Joint Committee of Public Accounts (JCPA) for service to meet market competition and to promote consideration. a stronger performance culture. We have already introduced administrative reforms that will come The JCPA handed down its Report on 29 Septem- into effect on 15 March 1998. Under these reforms: ber 1997. In the Report the JCPA supported the need for the 1922 Act to be replaced, and favoured . Departmental Secretaries will have greater the simplification, modernisation and the more authority and flexibility to effectively manage accessible format of the Bill. The Committee made their staff; twenty recommendations all of which the Govern- . new Public Service Values and a Code of ment accepted either in full or in part. The Opposi- Conduct for staff will be established through new tion were, of course, well represented on the JCPA. regulations; The legislation was also referred to the Senate . public accountability will be increased and Finance and Public Administration Legislation strengthened; and Committee which reported to the Senate in early . protection for whistleblowers raising allegations October. The Committee largely endorsed many of of Code of Conduct breaches will be strength- the JCPA report recommendations, while acknow- ened. ledging the very brief period in which the Commit- The Government will also press ahead with reforms tee had to consider the report. and improvements to public service workplace The Democrats, however, who did not take up relations through the Workplace Relations Act. representation on the JCPA, submitted a dissenting This is not to suggest that legislative reform is report recommending that the Bill be withdrawn unnecessary. A new Bill is essential because there and rewritten. are a number of key areas in the current legislation The Government accepted all 20 of the JCPA’s that are not amenable to simplification by adminis- recommendations. The Government accepted the trative action. For example, recommendations, in a spirit of compromise, in the - giving employment powers direct to Agency belief that all Parties, Members and Senators shared Heads; a common goal for a public service that would - ensuring a secure Parliament-endorsed legisla- deliver the best value from public funds to serve tive the Government and the community for the 21st century. - framework for APS values, the new code of conduct Amendments to the Bill, in response to the JCPA recommendations, were made to: and protection of whistleblowers; - removing complex appeals arrangements; . strengthen the APS Values; - removal of inflexible employment categories; . strengthen the references in the Bill to merit as a fundamental principle of APS employment by - removal of compulsory age 65 retirement; including a definition of merit in relation to the Therefore, it will be impossible to build a fully engagement and promotion of APS employees; coherent, reformed, management structure without and legislative change. . enhancing the level of scrutiny and reporting of Cultural change is also necessary. The extent to agency workplace diversity programs. which the reforms are acknowledged as real changes and embraced by staff and middle manage- The Government amendments were accepted ment, will be an important determinant of the without dissent by the House of Representatives. success of the reform process. The existence of a The legislation was introduced into the Senate on new Public Service Act will be the major contribu- 11 November where the Opposition and minor tor to the perception, among public servants, of real parties moved seventy-four amendments to the Bill and significant change. during some 17 hours of debate on 17, 18 and 19 The current Public Service Act is over 75 years old November 1997. and has been amended 100 times. It is complex, 940 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 prescriptive and out of date. The new Bill removes effectively against other sectors and to promote a that prescription, is easy to understand and is only stronger performance culture. 40 pages long. The Bill is all about making the Public Service Although there will be some fundamental employ- more efficient and effective and delivering better ment relationships that we cannot change without service to both the Government and to the public. the new Public Service Bill, the Government will It gives a message about the expectations of continue, in the meantime, to use the Workplace citizens in a democratic system of governance Relations Act to make a significant impact on the appropriate for the twenty-first century. performance of the APS. What holds the APS together, what creates a As the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for unified Service, is the shared values and ethos of the Public Service has stated on a number of public service. And these are reinforced in the Bill, occasions, Australia needs a public service that can: by setting out for the first time, the APS Values . position Australia in a global environment to and a Code of Conduct for all public servants. This ensure that we are future focused and seeking out legislative framework of values, conduct and the changes that will guarantee our national scrutiny provide, for the first time, a coherent future; statement of the public interest. . benchmark itself against all sectors to determine The community also expects that its public service what it does best, what it can improve, and what will be subject to the same workplace arrangements is more effectively delivered by the market; as apply to the rest of the workforce. The Public Service Bill seeks to achieve this by giving Agency . provide frank and fearless—and innova- Heads the same rights, duties and powers as an tive—advice to government; and ordinary employer, thus allowing employment . access the best service delivery skills, quality and arrangements that will meet the particular needs of cost, wherever they might reside. each individual workplace. Accordingly, the Bill Along with reforming workplace relations general- devolves employment powers from the central ly, and the waterfront in particular, achieving a agencies to Agency Heads. It does not prescribe more relevant, efficient and innovative, world class process but instead ensures that Agency Heads are Australian Public Service is a key objective of the held accountable for their actions. Government. The Government is determined to I believe that the Bill will be welcomed by those build on the strengths of—and make even more innovative and creative public servants who are effective—one of the key institutions supporting actively seeking a higher standard of performance Australia’s democratic system. and who are frustrated by the constraints. The Public Service Bill is therefore an essential For example, the 1995 Australian Workplace part of our reform agenda. Industrial Relations Survey indicated that employ- I turn now to the terms of the Bill itself. ees in the Public Service felt disempowered by the highly protected and regulated environment. While The Public Service Bill is a very exciting piece of formal consultative processes were twice as likely legislation, aiming to put in place a framework for to be in place than in the private sector, public a high performance public service. servants did not feel able to make decisions for Alan Kohler, writing in The Age, commented last themselves at the workplace level. year that the Bill is: They did not have a high level of workplace ’ . . . the most uncompromising deregulation of autonomy—the Survey showed that more than the Public Service anywhere in the world. The twice as many private sector employees recorded bill lays down standards for ethical behaviour high levels of workplace autonomy. and impartiality, establishes the first code of Under the Public Service Act of 1922 public conduct for public servants, sets up a process for servants have been working under a piece of accountability and scrutiny, and then lets depart- legislation more than seventy five years old. It is mental heads run things as if they were corporate outdated, overly prescriptive and unnecessarily chief executives.’ centralist. Workplace flexibility and accountability ’[It] is one of the great pieces of Government is limited. Personnel decisions are slow, paper- employee legislation—simple, clear and driven and labour-intensive. powerful’. (The Melbourne Age, 11 July 1997) The Government is reintroducing this Bill un- It not only removes prescription and central control, changed, not because we want an election over it, but enhances the accountability framework which but because we believe this Bill as it stands the Parliament and the community expect of the provides the type of Public Service that the public service. It will enable the public service to Government and the Australian Community have meet market competition, to benchmark itself more a right to expect. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 941

I commend the Bill to the Senate. First, it is necessary to set in place conversion PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT (CONSEQUENTIAL arrangements for those who work in the APS. With the removal of the concept of office for APS staff AND TRANSITIONAL) AMENDMENT BILL and the creation of a single employment category, 1997 [No. 2] officers and employees covered by the existing Act The Public Employment (Consequential and are converted to employees in their corresponding Transitional) Amendment Bill 1997 deals with the agencies with their corresponding classifications. consequential and transitional matters arising from Fixed-term Secretaries to Departments under the the proposed repeal of the Public Service Act 1922 old Act will become Secretaries of their corres- and its replacement by the legislation set out in the ponding Departments under the new Act. Similarly, Public Service Bill 1997. the person holding office as the Public Service Commissioner under the existing Act will become This is the same Bill that was passed by the House the Public Service Commissioner under the new of Representatives on Act, as if she had been appointed under the new 30 October 1997. In November 1997 the Opposi- Act. tion parties in the Senate passed amendments to this Bill and the Public Service Bill 1997. The Second, as the Public Service Bill 1997 is primarily Government rejects outright those amendments and principles-based, there are some conditions covered is reintroducing this Bill to progress the reforms by the Public Service Act 1922 that require transi- which will allow for a dynamic and flexible public tional arrangements because they will no longer be service. regulated in the same way. Both this Bill and the Public Service Bill under- The most important of these are the arrangements went extensive scrutiny by the Joint Committee of governing the rights of return of staff who have left Public Accounts. I am pleased that the Committee the APS to take up non-APS public employment supported the need for the present Act to be under the complex, legislative provisions of the old replaced and favoured the simplification, moderni- Act. These staff will be able to return to the APS sation and more accessible format of the new Bill. under the transitional arrangements and, in future, The Government adopted, in whole or in part, the APS employees will be able to move in and out of twenty recommendations made by the Joint Com- APS employment, where it is in the interest of the mittee of Public Accounts. The Government also APS, under a simpler model of unpaid leave. gave close consideration to the substantive com- Third, there is a need to provide for the continu- ments contained in the report but which were not ation of processes already set in train. Action may expressed formally as recommendations. have commenced under the Public Service Act Despite the Government accepting the recommen- 1922 or the Merit Protection (Australian Govern- dations of the Committee, the Opposition and ment Employees) Act 1984 that will not be minor parties in the Senate went on to amend the completed by the time the new Public Service Act Bill. The amendments did not recognise the in- is proclaimed. creasing need for APS agencies to be freed from central controls and adopt employment arrange- I refer to matters such as appointments, promotions, ments which meet their particular needs while suspensions, transfers and advancements, as well as retaining the best characteristics of the APS: to appeals, grievances and other reviews of employ- integrity; professionalism and accountability. This ment decisions. To enable action to be completed, Bill, together with the Public Service Bill 1997, regulations will be made to ensure the continuation provides that flexibility. of those processes after the new Act is proclaimed. I turn now to the terms of the Bill itself. The validation of actions and decisions taken under The Bill sets out certain transitional provisions that the former legislation will be largely dealt with in are necessary with the introduction of the Public regulations. Service Bill. There is a need for provision of With respect to the consequential amendments, the transitional arrangements from the old to the new Acts specified in Schedule 1 to this Bill will be employment framework and a need to validate amended or repealed as set out in that Schedule. actions and decisions taken under the old legislation The amendments can be divided into the following where that action has not been completed. categories: There is also a need to make consequential amend- ments to the extensive range of legislation which . changes in the current provisions relating to incorporates references to the Public Service Act staffing to reflect the new employment frame- 1922. work; The transitional provisions fall into three broad . removal of obsolete references to the Public areas. Service Board; 942 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

. consequential amendments to the superannuation meeting of the Ministerial Advisory Council legislation, but without any changes in the on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Affairs. In his operation of the schemes; absence, Senator Newman will take questions . changes to the role of the Remuneration Tribunal relating to the portfolio of health and family in relation to the remuneration and allowances services and Senator Minchin will take ques- for Secretaries; tions on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander . removal of cross-references to reciprocal mobili- affairs. ty which will now be dealt with by directions by the Public Service Commissioner; QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE . removal of references to the old mobility ar- rangements set out in Part IV of the Public Minister for Resources and Energy Service Act 1922; Senator COOK—My question is to Sena- . standard translations for common terms in the tor Parer, the Minister for Resources and old Act; and Energy. In your pecuniary interest declaration . other miscellaneous amendments to ensure to the Prime Minister, Minister, did you appropriate links to the new APS employment declare that you hold eight of the nine shares framework. in Investment Management Pty Ltd? Did you The Bill also deals with the consequences of reveal to the Prime Minister that that com- devolving the arrangements for setting the salaries pany held 16 shares in Queensland Coal Mine of the Senior Executive Service (SES). The link of Management? Did you further reveal to the the remuneration of Members of Parliament with the SES Band 2 minimum salary will be replaced Prime Minister that that company owned 100 by a link to the classification structure created by per cent of the Advance Queensland Re- the Remuneration Tribunal for certain statutory sources and Mining company? Did you reveal offices. It is not intended to increase the level of to the Prime Minister that that company remuneration. operates the Jellinbah coal mine? Finally, did Subject to any special requirements in relation to you reveal that Queensland Coal Mine Man- particular consequential amendments, this Bill will agement also owns 70 per cent of the Bowen commence on the same day as the Public Service Basin Coal company, which holds the Lake Act 1997. Vermont coal deposit? The proposed amendments have no financial impact. Senator PARER—I have told the Senate everything about this particular project. I have Collectively the arrangements proposed in this Bill will provide the necessary certainty and continuity also advised the Senate of my own interest in of administrative and management arrangements for Investment Management. It has been there for the Australian Public Service. They will enable an years and years, Senator. It takes you a long orderly devolution of employment powers in the time to read. Everyone is aware of the fact—I APS and a transition to a less regulated workplace. have never hidden it; it is also in my state- I commend the Bill to the Senate. ment in the Senate—that I was on the board Ordered that further consideration of the of QCMM for about seven years. Of course, second reading of these bills be adjourned Advance Queensland Resources and Mining until the first day of the winter sittings, in is simply the operating company for an accordance with standing order 111. investment company which is QCMM. So I know a little bit about this area. Sitting suspended from 1.00 p.m. to 2.00 p.m. Senator Cook has suddenly discovered something: 70 per cent of Bowen Basin Coal, MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS which has an area called Ensham. That is an Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister authority to prospect; it is not a lease. It has for the Environment) (2.00 p.m.)—by leave— been there a long time. There has been a lot I inform the Senate that Senator John Herron, of work going on in regard to feasibility Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait studies and things for many years. Islander Affairs, will be absent from the Let me say that the Prime Minister laid Senate chamber for question time today. down guidelines for ministers because we Senator Herron is in Melbourne attending a believe in the sort of government that these Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 943 people on the other side would not even know source, were in accordance with the about. Knowing the Prime Minister’s guide- ministerial guidelines, and they were stated. lines, as he does very well, let me quote from what he said yesterday in the House of Repre- Employment sentatives. He said: Senator BOSWELL—My question is to I am satisfied that Senator Parer has not breached the Leader of the Government in the Senate. the ministerial guidelines. Today’s labour force figures reveal that in the Senator COOK—I have a supplementary six months to February 140,600 jobs have question, Madam President. I asked you, been created by this coalition government, Senator Parer, five explicit questions of what with an additional 14,800 Australians joining you told the Prime Minister. the work force in February. How important is growth in the resource sector in achieving this Government senators interjecting— goal, and what actions has this government The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my taken to promote investment and jobs? right will cease interjecting. Start again, Senator HILL—Yes, more good news on Senator Cook. the employment front, flowing through from Senator Alston interjecting— sound economic management at last for this country. An additional 14,800 Australians The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Alston, joined the work force in February. This means cease interjecting. that we have seen employment rise by a Senator COOK—You evaded all of those strong 140,600 over the six months to Februa- questions. I assume, therefore, that the answer ry. Employment is continuing to grow at a is no. solid rate and, just as important, unemploy- Senator Parer—You are wrong. ment remains on a downward trend. In fact, I believe that the unemployment rate now is Senator COOK—The answer is yes? My lower than it has been for over seven years. supplementary questions are: Minister, did What stronger endorsement could you have you reveal to the Prime Minister details of the for an incoming government than in just two income stream derived by Investment Man- years of office, by adopting sound economic agement Pty Ltd from Queensland Coal Mine policy, they have been able to contribute to Management, and did you reveal to the Prime such a positive employment environment and Minister details of the amount of money such a significantly reducing unemployment disbursed by Investment Management Pty Ltd rate. to the beneficiaries of your family trust? And you might chance your arm and answer the It does demonstrate, yet again, the extent to first five questions as well with a yes or no, which this government is interested in real Minister. jobs. It is interested in job security. It is interested in attracting investments and pro- Senator PARER—The ministerial guide- moting exports. It is obviously interested in lines require us to divulge income streams contributing to a growing economy and that from just about every source. This is a family is why we have put such emphasis on main- trust. It is made up not just of me and my taining lower interest rates and low inflation, wife. In fact, as I said two years ago, I do not giving incentives to support industry to grow run the thing. My wife runs it and she has run and to employ. it for about eight years. However, there are seven adult children. When adult children No other industry has been any more become adults— important in this area than the resources sector, which is booming under this govern- Senator Cook—Will you answer the ment. I take the opportunity to congratulate question? Senator Parer for his leadership in this criti- Senator PARER—I have said that the cally important portfolio. Let us look at the income stream that went from any of those record. More than 40 new projects have been trusts to me and my wife, from whatever commissioned in the past 12 months, involv- 944 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 ing an investment of some $7 billion. More portfolio and not comment on Labor Party than 120 resources and energy projects are policies. currently under construction or have been Senator HILL—Thank you Madam Presi- committed to. This represents a capital invest- dent. Of course this government will concen- ment of over $20 billion and will create 7,000 trate on the high priority of reducing unem- direct and over 20,000 indirect permanent ployment. Not only did we inherit unemploy- jobs. An excellent record. More than 160 ment levels that were too high but we inherit- additional projects are currently under con- ed an economy in which the fundamentals sideration by industry, involving an estimated were so wrong. We will get the budget into investment of $70 billion, with the potential surplus within three years after inheriting a to create many more thousands of new jobs. deficit of $10.3 billion. We have been pre- Under this government and under this minister pared to take the hard decisions to keep down the resources and energy sector has been a inflation, to reduce interest rates, and to give stunning success story. That is of benefit to industry and investment a real opportunity to all Australians and particularly of benefit to bring full benefit in terms of employment those who are aspiring to jobs. opportunities. There can be no better demon- Contrast that record with that of our oppo- stration, Senator Boswell, of the determination nents. Labor’s record is one of high unem- of this government to keep on down that path. ployment, high interest rates—record interest The result will be continuing reduction of rates, in effect—and no incentive for business unemployment and continuing employment to grow; a miserable record to pass on to an growth, and that is good news for all Austral- incoming government. The contrast is so stark ians. that it demonstrates what good policy and good ministerial leadership can really achieve. Minister for Resources and Energy Senator FAULKNER—My question is Labor are not interested in unemployment directed to the Minister for Resources and at all. We listen to Senator Faulkner, who Energy, Senator Parer. Minister, despite your leads off with the dirt file every day, slurring claim— innocent parties whether they are dead or alive. The Baillieus are one example of that. Senator Alston interjecting— We still have not got the apology. He still has The PRESIDENT—Senator Alston, cease not been prepared to exhibit a touch of interjecting. decency and apologise. What some might Senator FAULKNER—Minister, despite think is more important is: where does he your claim that the letter of 20 March 1997 stand on unemployment? In 85 days of sitting from the Registrar of Senators’ Interests is last year, Senator Faulkner, Leader of the still in your in-tray, how do you explain your Opposition in the Senate, demonstrated how failure to declare the 44 shares you own in important they regard unemployment by Queensland Coal Mine Management ESP, asking only three questions on unemployment. declaration of which was a requirement of the Is that an endorsement of the government or Senate prior to the date of that letter in March is that evidence of disregard of a critically last year? Is it not the case that clause 3(a) of important area? (Time expired) the original Senate guidelines requires regis- Senator BOSWELL—Madam President, I tration of ‘shareholdings in public or private ask a supplementary question. Senator Hill, companies, including holding companies, that is certainly good news for the Australian including the name of the company or people. I would like to seek an assurance: will companies’? Minister, isn’t this more than just the high priority given to investment and jobs a technical breach? Isn’t this, in fact, a very in the first two years of the Howard govern- serious breach of the Senate’s requirements? ment continue? Is this priority shared by the Senator PARER—Just to tackle the first Labor Party and other parties? part of Senator Faulkner’s question first, he The PRESIDENT—Senator Hill, you talked about the letter of 20 March being in should keep the remarks to that within your my in-tray, as if I made it up. I have checked Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 945 around this place—put your hands up, over pany. This was set up on the recommendation there, those who have read that letter. of some accountants from Sydney. They Opposition senators interjecting— claimed it was a more flexible way of going down a savings operation. The PRESIDENT—Order! There are too many interjections. The company made contributions in the years 1993 and 1994, and they stopped Senator PARER—I just checked around to making them in 1995. As the employee share see how many people had actually read this benefit plan is a form of superannuation letter, and it was amazing. People were scheme, I personally treated it as such. You coming to my office and saying, ‘Can I have may argue whether it is or is not. As you can a copy of it because I have not seen it?’ So see by the sorts of things I have put in the there you are. As regards ESP— register in the past, there was certainly no Senator Schacht—How many on your side deliberate intention to do anything that was have got trusts? not in accordance with the requirements. Senator PARER—How many on your side, Senator FAULKNER—Madam President, Senator Schacht, have ever worked? I ask a supplementary question. Senator Parer, Senator Robert Ray—We have never been I think that you have indicated to the Senate given shares like that, Warwick. that you have corrected the record of yester- day when you indicated that this particular The PRESIDENT—Order! There are too company was wound up. I asked you whether many interjections in the chamber. The level you were required, under the original Senate of breaches of standing orders is absolutely guidelines, to make a declaration about that unacceptable. The level of interjections is company, but you have not responded to that. unacceptably high, and senators will not shout I ask you specifically, Minister: did you when I am standing on my feet either. I will declare your ownership of those 44 shares in not tolerate the breaches of standing orders. your declaration to the Prime Minister? If you You have been warned. Senator Parer. did not, how can you maintain, as you did to Senator PARER—Thank you, Madam the Senate yesterday, that: President. Can I explain what ESP is because . . . I have disclosed all interests that I have from yesterday, I think, the question was asked of a pecuniary point of view. me, and my recollection at the time was, ‘I ...... think this thing is finished; it is no longer I have fulfilled all the requirements of the Prime there.’ That is not the case. ESP was started Minister’s letter in regard to any investments that up as a superannuation type company. ESP I have or that are held by my family trust. itself stands for ‘employee share management plan’, or ‘share plan’. Senator PARER—I would just like to take the last words that Senator Faulkner said and Senator Robert Ray—Not extra sensory say, ‘You’re right.’ I have not changed my perception? view; it is absolutely the same as yesterday in The PRESIDENT—Senator Ray, you are regard to the ministerial requirements. persistently interjecting during this question Senator Faulkner—You said the company time. was wound up, yesterday. Senator PARER—It was set up as a Senator PARER—No, that is not what you superannuation type plan. In other words, the are talking about. You talked about me aim of it was to provide long-term savings for making declarations. employees and directors of the company. The Senator Faulkner—You can’t have it both way it worked—which is not unusual in com- ways—either it was wound up or it wasn’t panies—is that, on some sort of a percentage wound up. on profits—I have forgotten now, but a bonus type situation—when a certain profit level Senator PARER—I did not say that yester- was made, it was paid by the operating day. company into the superannuation type com- Senator Faulkner—What did you say? 946 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Senator PARER—I said, ‘my recollection over here got in excess of $5 million in that is but I will check.’ Where my recollection same year. was not entirely correct is the contributions It is an absolute disgrace. The MUA got made into that ceased in 1995, but the ESP $220,000. Can you imagine why they would continues. need that sort of assistance? It is because you Waterfront Reform are the wholly owned subsidiaries of the trade Senator WATSON—My question is union movement. You come in here and try directed to the Minister representing the to impugn the integrity of people like Senator Minister for Workplace Relations and Small Parer when you well know that not only is he Business. Minister, the Maritime Union of doing a first-class job in his portfolio but he Australia has gone on strike for 48 hours at has very much upstanding standards of in- Port Botany in Sydney. Is such a strike action tegrity that you would not even begin to in the national interest? What has the govern- comprehend. We see people like Senator ment and the opposition had to say about this Bolkus having the absolute gall to simply strike action? Are there any factors impeding ignore all the proper standards of propriety a sensible approach to waterfront reform? and aspiring to be the Attorney-General of this country when he has no conception of Senator ALSTON—I do not think anyone what ethical standards are about and we find in Australia, apart from the Labor Party, Senator Faulkner, nearly two weeks later, not would be other than of the view that what is being prepared to apologise. Who are these occurring at Port Botany at the moment is a people to talk to us about conflicts of interest national disgrace. It is one thing to defend and standards? They have got nothing to say crane drivers, who have an hourly perform- on policy issues. That is why we now have a ance rate about 50 per cent below their major shadow minister for muckraking leading the international counterparts, getting $90,000- team on the other side. Senator Ray comes plus per year for working about a 14 hour into this chamber only when there is a bit of week—an absolute disgrace in itself—but the muck around. He does not bother to take an notion of their now turning around and going interest otherwise. But he is there in spades on strike, seeking a $4,500 pay rise and better when there is a bit of dirt to be thrown. superannuation simply defies belief. They are doing it because they are on a vengeance Time is running out for this mob. They binge. This is simply a cover in order to pay have had more than two years to come up back Patricks for the action they have taken with policies but they simply are not interest- to try to open up the waterfront to sensible ed. They have the cheek to attack people like competition. Even the Labor Party under- Senator Parer when they know full well that stands the need for competition on the water- the standards applied on this side are light- front because we saw a bunch of weasel years ahead of the standards that they apply. words in their national conference document So do not come in here lecturing us about which paid lip service to the concept. these things. Get back to the things that the Apart from that, there has been an absolute- people of Australia want. They want real ly deafening silence on the other side. Of reform on the waterfront. They certainly want course, the reason for that is clear; there is a an apology from Senator Faulkner. They massive conflict of interest. These people cannot comprehend how someone can have come in here and want to talk about standards the unmitigated cheek to just sit there and and conflicts of interest. What you have smirk when he has defamed both the living confronting you on the other side of this and the dead. It is simply unacceptable. Do chamber are people who, when in govern- not lecture us; get back and do some policy ment, gave away millions and millions of work instead. dollars to their trade union mates. In 1994-95, Senator WATSON—Madam President, I $16½ million went to the trade union move- ask a supplementary question. Minister, what ment—up 300 per cent from two years earlier. implications would further strike action have Unions associated with 10 of these people on Australian exports and on Australian jobs? Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 947

Senator ALSTON—Senator Watson knows investment trust? If it did, why haven’t you the answer to that question. The reason he declared that over the years? wants it on the record is that it ought to be Senator PARER—First of all, I just hope abundantly clear to everyone concerned that, that Senator Ray is right—but you are not, I unless you achieve higher standards of pro- don’t think—that this shareholding is worth ductivity, you simply render yourself much $2 million. less export competitive. Senator Robert Ray—It is 1.6 per cent of This is a bottleneck to Australia’s export $150 million. competitiveness. The people over there are not interested in solving the problem. Not Senator PARER—They are back-of-the- only did we have Senator Faulkner and envelope calculations. I have never walked Senator Bolkus; Senator Sherry was caught away from the fact that the family trust that red-handed the other day, and when given an my family has has 16 non-voting shares in a opportunity to apologise he did not. In other private company. You know better than words, they do not even want to address anybody, Senator Ray, that shares like this are issues like how to make Australia more not easily tradeable. Buyers do not come in competitive, how to boost exports and how to and say, ‘I want to buy some non-voting create jobs. shares.’ So as regards value, I have no idea. But that is not the point. Did we hear anything from any of their spokesmen about the employment figures that They are saying, ‘What is wrong with this came out today? Of course not, because they is that you have some sort of a dividend into have only one issue on their agenda. They are your family trust.’ Senator Ray knows that we not prepared to tackle the issues. They are not have a registration of senators’ interests; we prepared to acknowledge the crying need for also have the Prime Minister setting guide- reform in these areas because they are para- lines. What is the reason for that? The reason lysed. They are not allowed to. (Time expired) is to avoid a conflict of interest. Senator Ray, I doubt you are accusing me of that. If you Minister for Resources and Energy are, or if anyone on that side is saying that at Senator ROBERT RAY—I direct my any stage I misused my office for personal question to Senator Parer. Minister, are you gain, get up and say it. aware of a board of directors meeting of Naturally, what happens with the distribu- Queensland Coal Mine Management and tion of moneys is that it goes through family associated companies in Brisbane on 25 trusts. There was nothing unusual about that. February 1993? Did that meeting allocate to I cannot confirm that figure, Senator. You your family trust 16 $1 C class ordinary obviously have got documents from some- shares in Queensland Coal Mine Manage- body. I think I know who you got them from. ment? Is it true that those shares were worth a minimum of $2 million on 30 June 1996? Let me say—and I have said it right from Further, can you confirm that you chaired the word go—that I have always been up- another meeting of that board at the Sheraton front on this. I have never tried to hide Mirage Gold Coast— anything. There has never been a conflict of interest between my portfolio responsibilities Government senators interjecting— and the particular mine that I was a director The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my of until 1996. Not only did I resign—I re- right will cease interjecting so Senator Parer signed from that company and all subsidiaries and I can hear the question. of it. I have no involvement whatsoever in its Senator ROBERT RAY—Minister, can operation and have not since March 1996. you confirm that you chaired another meeting Senator ROBERT RAY—Madam Presi- of the board at the Sheraton Mirage Gold dent, I ask a supplementary question. Coast on 11 August 1995? Did that meeting Minister, are you saying that you cannot approve a payment of just under $100,000 in remember that on 11 August 1995 you fully franked dividends to IMPL, your family chaired a meeting in which a decision was 948 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 made to remit some $99,000 to your invest- in the coal-mining industry, how can you now ment trust? Are you saying that you cannot defend your ministerial activities and state- remember a mere $99,000 from 16 $1 shares ments against very real charges and serious being sent to your trust? When you say that charges of conflict of interest with particular these shares—you were careful, so I will be regard to the following—and I will just list careful—are very difficult to dispose, you will three. acknowledge that these shares can be dis- Government senators interjecting— posed of with the permission of the other ordinary shareholders, being class C shares. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my You will at least put that on the record that right will cease interjecting. they are disposable. As you hold eight of the Senator LEES—Firstly, your decision to nine shares in your own management trust, cease funding the— were you unaware that in 1996 this particular shareholding put $300,000 into your family Government senators interjecting— trust? The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my Senator PARER—This is totally irrelevant right will cease interjecting. to the registration of senators’ interests and Senator LEES—Firstly, your decision to the Prime Minister’s guidelines on conflict of cease funding the Energy Research and interest. Naturally— Development Corporation, an organisation Opposition senators interjecting— dedicated to the development of alternative The PRESIDENT—Order! energy sources—sources other than fossil fuels; secondly, your high profile role in the Senator PARER—Madam President, I do government’s irresponsible strategy to force not know for how long we have to tell these international agreement at Kyoto to actually people: we have a family trust that has been allow Australia to increase its greenhouse going for 28 years, which my wife has run for emissions instead of decreasing them; and, about the last eight years. For practical pur- thirdly, your stubborn refusal to allow conser- poses, my wife has run that for the last eight vationists to contribute to your Energy Advis- years. That was already divulged in senators’ ory Committee and your scrapping of the interests going back years and years and ethanol bounty? years. And when I resigned from those vari- ous companies, that was put in as well so that Senator PARER—Senator Lees has co- you were kept up to date. vered a range of things here. Let me just point out— Senator Hill—Hey, Rosemary, those Telstra shares are going well? Senator Lees—You have a pretty bad performance. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Hill. I call Senator Lees. Senator PARER—You are just as guilty of Senator Hill—Those Telstra shares are slur as anyone else. You talked about personal going well? gain, Senator. What we are talking about here is conflict of interest, or the potential for con- The PRESIDENT—Senator Hill, cease flict of interest. I repeat to you, as I did to the interjecting. I wish to be able to hear the Labor Party: if you want to claim that some- question. how I have misused my office for personal Senator Hill interjecting— gain—and that is what you are talking about; not industry, not the generic industry, but The PRESIDENT—Senator Hill! personal gain—stand up and say so, or sit Minister for Resources and Energy down and shut up. Senator LEES—My question is also Let me talk briefly about ERDC. ERDC did directed to the Minister for Resources and a very good job over quite a number of years. Energy. Minister, given the recent emergence However, its time came, and it was replaced of your not inconsiderable financial interests by other programs. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 949

Let us talk about the so-called greenhouse. where to begin. I think we must start, how- This was a whole of government approach in ever, with ABARE, Minister, in saying that it respect of greenhouse. What Senator Lees is is an absolute nonsense—and even the Om- doing is running down the same line as the budsman has now made it very clear that the anti-Australian conservation foundation. So it methodology behind that model is more than is the anti-Australian democrats and the anti- slightly suspect. But, Minister, is not support- Australian conservation foundation. You ing an industry, as you have done consistently fought ABARE; you used everything at your and yet again today—an industry that you— disposal to fight ABARE. Do you know the Government senators interjecting— industries that were most concerned? It was not the export coal industry, Senator. They The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my export to other countries; they produce very right will cease interjecting. little CO2. It was people like the aluminium Senator LEES—Thank you, Madam industry, it was people like the steel indus- President. Is not supporting an industry, try—people who rely on coal being produced Minister, as you have done consistently, and for electricity for those energy intensive an industry that you obviously now, it seems, industries. have a personal interest in, a conflict of interest? If that is not a conflict of interest, So, Madam President, it was mainly carried, then what is? It is an industry in which you as you know, by Senator Hill. He did an have a personal interest. excellent job—as, I might say, did Ambassa- dor Meg McDonald; another good job. Sena- Senator PARER—Senator Lees obviously tor Hill had responsibility for it. Certainly was not listening. I support the mining indus- there was input from it. It was nothing what- try, and the mining industry is a very broad soever to do with individual personal gain for generic area. For example, if you want to zero a mine that I used to chair, which is totally in in on coal, do so by all means. I think there the export market. are about 50 different varieties of coal in Australia— I am not sure what the final question was. You might like to ask it as a supplementary. Senator Robert Ray—You would know. Senator Boswell—Tell us about the etha- Senator PARER—Yes—some of it being nol. used for thermal in the domestic scene, some for thermal in the export scene, some of the Senator PARER—Madam President, I semisoft coking coals that are used in steel know the hang-up the Democrats have on mills and, of course, the hard coking coals ethanol. They actually went along to the that are for the steel mills as well. Labor Party at budget time once and said, ‘Listen, we’ll pass your budget if you give us But, Senator, what you do not understand $20 million for ethanol.’ When we came into is that a conflict of interest is where someone government, we were totally ambivalent about does something that will be to their personal this, but we had a report that this was going gain. As I have said, if anyone wants to to be a total waste of money. suggest that I have ever done that in my own portfolio, get up and say it. Don’t muck Senator Lees interjecting— around and fish and—(Time expired) Senator PARER—Here is Senator Lees Honourable senators interjecting— saying ‘rubbish’. Senator Woodley, I think The PRESIDENT—Order! We will pro- you were in the estimates that day and you ceed with question time when there is silence asked a few questions, until you were shot to in the chamber. pieces by the public servant who was there. What we have done with ethanol is restore the Minister for Resources and Energy $2 million, which I think I am responsible for, Senator CHRIS EVANS—My question is in the building of a pilot plant. directed to the Minister for Resources and Senator LEES—Madam President, I ask a Energy. Minister, you have admitted that you supplementary question. I am not quite sure hold through your family trust a very substan- 950 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 tial beneficial interest, estimated at at least $2 out of work and you haven’t opened your million, in Queensland Coal Mine Manage- bloody mouth. ment. Minister, doesn’t this equate to the Senator Hill—It is your greenhouse policy minister for coal mining having substantial that will put them out of work. interests in coal mines? Doesn’t this create at the very least an apparent conflict of interest? Senator PARER—The prospects in the Minister, can you assure the Senate that you next 10 years or so indicate, if my memory is have never made a decision in your capacity correct, an increased demand for exports of as minister for resources which resulted in a about 127 million tonnes. direct or an indirect benefit for Queensland The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators are Coal Mine Management Pty Ltd, Advance shouting across the chamber, which will not Queensland Resources and Mining Pty Ltd, be tolerated. QCMM (ESP) Pty Ltd, Bowen Basin Coal Senator Forshaw and Senator Hill interject- Pty Ltd or Jellinbah Mining Company Pty ing— Ltd? The PRESIDENT—Senator Forshaw and Senator PARER—Of course I can say that. Senator Hill, cease interjecting and talking I can unequivocally say that, Senator. while Senator Parer has the call. You are in Honourable senators interjecting— breach of the standing orders. The PRESIDENT—Order! It is difficult Senator PARER—It should be the aim of for everybody to hear when there is so much everyone in this country, whether they be in background noise in the chamber. the trade union movement or the non-union Senator PARER—I unequivocally have sector or the companies themselves, to in- supported the growth of the coal mining crease our productivity and get the lion’s industry in a generic fashion. This has includ- share of that projected increase in coal re- ed taking up a program that was set by the quired around the world. previous Labor government—the New Hori- Senator CHRIS EVANS—Madam Presi- zons program into India. dent, I ask a supplementary question. Senator Robert Ray—Are you going to Minister, my question actually went to the table who you talked with? perceived conflict of interest. I ask you: isn’t it true that the Prime Minister’s code of Senator PARER—I am happy to table— ministerial conduct requires that ‘no conflict what do you mean table who you talked to? or apparent conflict between duties and One of the things I would have thought that interests arises’? Aren’t you in clear breach of this lot on the other side would be pushing, this requirement? because of the difficulties being experienced in Asia, is the problems with regard to the Senator PARER—No; and the Prime export of coal. We have all seen the prices Minister agrees with me. come down. You have no interests in that— Native Title none whatsoever. Senator MARGETTS—My question, Then there have been the industrial relations which I have been requested to ask on behalf problems going on in specific parts of Aus- of the Aboriginal tent embassy, is to the tralia. What this country needs—and I keep Minister representing the Prime Minister. suggesting it across the board, and I will do Given that under international law it is broad- it over and over again—is for us to remain ly accepted that there are only three ways in more competitive than the rest of the world. which sovereignty can be acquired over an We want to increase sales of coal. It is our area of land—when that land is terra nullius, biggest export earner by far. We are compet- or uninhabited; when the original inhabitants ing. We are not the only country in the world enter into a treaty in which they cede sover- supplying coal. We must be more productive. eignty; or by conquering the original inhabit- Senator Forshaw—What have you done ants in a declared state of war—and given for the miners at Cobar? Hundreds of people that the High Court has rejected the myth of Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 951 terra nullius and confirmed that native title is As the Native Title Act case—Western Aus- a right having its source in pre-existing tralia versus the Commonwealth—made clear, Aboriginal law which predates European the Commonwealth clearly has the power to occupation of this continent, can the minister regulate native rights and interests. The indicate under what sovereign authority the Native Title Act, as amended by the Native Commonwealth is planning to alter pre- Title Amendment Bill, will continue to recog- existing native title rights of the indigenous nise and protect native title and provides that peoples of this continent who have never native title cannot be extinguished contrary to entered into a treaty nor have ever been the act. conquered in a declared state of war? Senator MARGETTS—Madam President, Government senators interjecting— I ask a supplementary question. I listened very carefully to the minister’s answer, and I The PRESIDENT—Order! Senators on my thank Senator Hill. But, if I listened correctly, right will cease talking when a senator has the he has indicated that the High Court of call. Australia has never ruled on sovereignty and Senator HILL—I thought I might get a has generally indicated that it cannot rule on question along these lines today so I took sovereignty. Therefore, does the minister some advice, which I can pass on to the concede that the issue of indigenous sover- honourable senator. That advice is in the eignty remains unresolved, that the promise following terms: the High Court has consis- of a previous Prime Minister to enter into a tently held that the Commonwealth of treaty or series of treaties remains unhonoured Australia’s sovereignty over Australia cannot and that to proceed to alter the fundamental be challenged, controlled or interfered with by rights of indigenous people with these issues the courts. However, the courts can, of course, outstanding is entirely wrong? Also, is any examine the consequences of the acquisition minister of this government intending to visit of sovereignty. In Mabo, the High Court the people at the tent embassy to explain your rejected, as Senator Margetts said, the concept views to them? of terra nullius. The acquisition of sovereignty Senator HILL—During the recent Consti- does not depend on acceptance of the doctrine tutional Convention, at a quiet moment I of terra nullius. The High Court confirmed in happened to listen to an address outside the Mabo that sovereignty may be acquired over tent embassy where this argument was being an inhabited territory just as it may be ac- put. But I think the bottom line is in fact that quired over an uninhabited territory and that what the government is seeking to do is find the acquisition of sovereignty cannot be a fair and just solution to a range of prob- challenged in the court. lems—problems in terms of their practical The High Court found that, on the acquisi- sense—that arise from the law as it has been tion of sovereignty over territory, the Crown promulgated by the courts in recent times. acquired a radical title to that territory. The There is no doubt that, in seeking to imple- radical title is subject to the pre-existing ment the court’s ruling in relation to native native title of the indigenous inhabitants. That title, there are a whole range of practical native title may, however, be extinguished by issues that need to be addressed. They have a legislative or executive act which is plainly been addressed by the parliament in order that inconsistent with the native title rights. Chief we can provide reasonable certainty that is Justice Brennan, in the majority judgment, consistent with the rights that the High Court stated: has told us exist. That is the way this govern- ment is addressing this particular difficult Sovereignty carries the power to create and extin- issue and I think, in all circumstances, it is guish private rights and interests in land within the Sovereign’s territory. It follows that, on a change the proper way to act. (Time expired) of sovereignty, rights and interests in land that may Ministerial Code of Conduct have been indefeasible under the old regime become liable to extinction by exercise of the new Senator FAULKNER—I direct my ques- sovereign power. tion to the Minister representing the Prime 952 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Minister. Minister, given that the Prime aware, Madam President, ministers are re- Minister’s code of conduct says, ‘Ministers quired—and normally presidents direct are required to divest themselves of all shares them—to answer questions that are directed and similar interests in any company or to them by any senator in the chamber. I ask business involved in the area of their portfolio you to draw to the minister’s attention the fact responsibilities,’ on what basis did Mr Max that he is not answering a very direct question Moore-Wilton advise the Prime Minister’s that has been directed to him. office that Senator Parer was not in breach of The PRESIDENT—There is no point of the code? Did Mr Max Moore-Wilton make order. There is no standing order which this judgment on the basis of his personal and requires that and there has never been. Sena- extensive experience in the share market? tor Hill has been asked a question about Senator HILL—I think Senator Faulkner standards and behaviour. He is answering it should start with the unwritten code of con- as he sees fit. duct, which basically says, ‘If you defame Senator HILL—The point is, Madam innocent individuals, whether they be alive or President, that the question was premised by dead, you should at least have the decency to Senator Faulkner talking about a code of come in here and apologise.’ It is not a big conduct, standards of behaviour, and that is thing to do. It is not all that hard. All you the way I am answering it—standards of have to do is get up here and say, ‘I made a behaviour that he expects of ministers, stand- mistake and I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I de- ards of behaviour that we expect of all par- famed the Baillieus.’ When you apologise— liamentarians. When they stand in the Senator Faulkner—Tell us about Moore- coward’s castle and defame innocent by- Wilton. I know you are a rorter. Tell us about standers, they should at least have the decen- Max Moore-Wilton. cy to come in here and say they were wrong Senator HILL—You did not have the and apologise. When Senator Faulkner does nerve. You did not do what Senator Ray said that, he will be better placed to come in here and take 15 steps to courage. You would not and ask about questions relating to the con- say it outside because you knew you had duct of ministers. As Senator Faulkner knows, defamed them. You would not say it outside. the Prime Minister has said that he is totally You know you have defamed them and you satisfied that Senator Parer has complied with know you have got it totally wrong. But you the ministerial code of conduct and I have no have not got the decency to stand here in this intention of second-guessing the Prime place and say you are sorry. It is not a diffi- Minister on that matter. cult thing to do. Senator FAULKNER—Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. I did ask the Senator Faulkner—I know you are a minister on what basis Mr Max Moore-Wilton rorter. I asked a question about your rorts. advised the Prime Minister’s office that Senator HILL—No. We are not talking Senator Parer was not in breach of the code. about me. I would appreciate an answer. I understand, The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Hill has of course, that Senator Parer’s declaration to the call. Any other senator speaking at the the Prime Minister was referred to Mr Max time is in breach of the standing orders. I ask Moore-Wilton for checking on 7 May 1997. you to note that. Was this, Minister, the same time at which Dr Shergold was conducting his own inquiry into Senator Faulkner—He is required to Mr Moore-Wilton’s use of entitlements? Also, answer the question. what value would the Prime Minister attach The PRESIDENT—Under which standing to an all-clear from Mr Max Moore-Wilton in order is he required to answer the question? these circumstances? Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I Senator HILL—That is just about as raise a point of order. My point of order is on grubby as they get; certainly as grubby as the basis of relevance. As you would be anything I have heard in here in 16 years. It Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 953 all seems to be part of a consistent pattern: criminal law and corporations law as it is with just lash out; throw the bit of muck around; standards in this place. You have to set an do it often enough and with a bit of luck just example. When you turn a blind eye to the a little bit will stick ultimately. You have a go wrong thing being done, you set a new low at Senator Parer; you now have a go at a standard. That is what Mr Beazley is doing by senior public servant; you basically had a go failing to sack Senator Bolkus. at the Baillieus. The Baillieus are not even in This place is not a kangaroo court. It is a the business, but you have a go at them. sort of two-fingered salute to the Greens, the The point that Senator Faulkner does not Democrats, Senator Harradine and senators on seem to appreciate is that it is for the Prime this side. Madam President, every senator in Minister to decide whether the standards he this place who is not a Labor senator voted to set are being met. He has so decided, and that condemn Senator Bolkus for what he did. is the end of the matter. Nonetheless, he still says it is a kangaroo court and he does not care. He has no stand- Mr Christopher Skase ards; the Leader of the Opposition has no Senator COONAN—My question is direct- standards; Senator Faulkner has no standards. ed to the Minister for Justice. Will the If they were prepared to sack Senator Bolkus, minister inform the Senate of the seriousness we could say that they had some. with which the government regards the chase But you only have to look at the past to see for Mr Christopher Skase and his assets? what sorts of standards the Australian public There have been suggestions that the chase can expect from the opposition. The sorts of for Skase is a waste of taxpayers’ money. standards that they got in government were What is the minister’s response to these the sorts of standards that, I am advised, suggestions? meant that Prime Minister Keating in 1988 Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator failed to reveal to cabinet his relationship Coonan for the question. The government, as with Warren Anderson at a time when cabinet opposed to the opposition, clearly takes the was deciding to allow the Northern Territory chase for Skase and his assets seriously. We to expand its debt to build a new $130 know quite clearly that the government takes million state square project in Darwin. And it more seriously than the opposition, because who was to be the developer? The developer if they did take it seriously—it having been was to be Warren Anderson. In 1992 Senator shown that their shadow Attorney-General had Richardson continued to be a director of 2HD leaked highly confidential Federal Court when he was Minister for Transport and documents that had the potential to damage Communications. They are some examples of and make more difficult that pursuit—Mr the sorts of standards that were set by Labor Beazley would have shown some courage, when they were in government. demanded standards be set by his alternative What we have seen over the last few days first law officer and would have sacked is in direct contrast to the standards that we Senator Bolkus. want to uphold and the Democrats want to Senator Bolkus would be in here today, uphold. Even the Greens voted with us yes- rather than wherever he is. He accuses this terday to indicate that this was an unsatisfac- place of being a kangaroo court. It begs the tory standard by Senator Bolkus. It was an question whether you have sent him some sort historic censure, because I do not think it has of community service order and that is why not happened in living memory—and perhaps he is not here. But if you have, and he is out because the Greens voted with us. planting some plants somewhere, I will give There are plenty of other examples of the you a tip—count the seedlings. I would count sorts of standards that Labor is prepared to the seedlings. accept in this place. Senator Faulkner de- The government does take this seriously. famed dead men as part of a Baillieu rort and Fugitives cannot be allowed to escape from failed to apologise. He claimed that someone justice and a blind eye turned. It is same with was chairman of a company when they had 954 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 resigned three years earlier. Senator Sherry, Do you and the Prime Minister stand by that who sits at the back of the chamber, had a go statement? at Dr Lyle Williams and failed to apologise for what he did—just come in here, smear Senator PARER—Yes—public divesture, anybody, put it on the record and don’t worry yes. These shares are 16 non-voting shares in about it. Senator Sherry came in here and cast the company. What I talked about was public stones and he should be prepared to apologise divestment, divestment— when he has got it wrong. We saw Senator Honourable senators interjecting— O’Brien—(Time expired) The PRESIDENT—Order! There is far too Senator COONAN—Madam President, I much noise. Senator Parer is entitled to ask a supplementary question. The minister silence while he answers a question and has indicated that the government does take should not be interrupted by all sides of the seriously the pursuit of Mr Skase. Will the chamber. minister further detail how the government’s stand in upholding Australia’s bankruptcy Senator PARER—What the Prime Minister laws is being upheld? said, and I think what I said too, was that it is the disbursement of those shares as com- Senator VANSTONE—Yes, the govern- pared with publicly listed shares. There is not ment does take it seriously. We believe that an open market out there. I have no idea what by supporting Mr Donnelly in his chase for they are worth. assets we are demonstrating to anybody else who wants to do the same as Mr Skase did, Let me get back to the point. Senator Cook that it is unacceptable. It is an unacceptable is hammering away about dividends that come standard and we will pursue them. This from an investment by a family trust in government is about setting standards; stand- another company. What we are on about—and ards that we do not see from the opposition. this is what I thought Senator Ray and others were on about when they got up—is saying, I was about to say that Senator O’Brien had ‘Let’s look at the registration of interests, alleged that Allhands Hire was a business that whether it be the Senate or the Prime was put up for sale. Yesterday Senator Ellison Minister’s guidelines, and see whether there came into this place, indicated it was not for is a conflict of interest.’ If anyone thinks— sale and the company had consequently lost and I say this again and again and again—that a number of clients. Senator Quirke suggested in the office that I hold and in the two years a gold shovel had been bought and there was I have held it there has ever been a perception some sort of sleazy deal for Burson of a conflict of interest in respect of me or Marsteller, only to find that it was Labor who even my family’s trust, let them get up and in fact gave that contract out. In stark contrast say it. This fishing around is stupid. Just give to the standards that are not permitted here, me one example, Senator Ray. this government will implement standards. (Time expired) Senator Robert Ray—It is perception, not reality. Minister for Resources and Energy Senator PARER—There has been no Senator COOK—My question is directed conflict of interest and there has been no to the Minister for Resources and Energy. perception of interest. Minister, is it not the case that your shares in Queensland Coal Mine Management have Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask experienced remarkable capital growth in a supplementary question. Minister, that is an recent years, with the value of the company interesting answer. Is it not true that the only assets growing from $15.9 million in 1995 to prohibition on selling shares in Queensland $153 million in 1996? Is it not also the case Coal Mine Management is that prior consent that both you and the Prime Minister claimed of just three ordinary shareholders must be in parliament last night that there was ‘just no obtained? Did you make any effort to obtain scope for public divestment’ of those shares? such consent? If not, why did you not? Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 955

Senator PARER—I think I have answered no further than the requirement on page 11 of this very clearly. I have answered this in the this code, which says: answers I gave yesterday and in the explan- Ministers are required to divest themselves of all ation I gave last night and today. There is shares and similar interests in any company or nothing more I can add to what I have said. business involved in the area of their portfolio responsibilities. The transfer of interests to a family Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that member or to a nominee or trust is not an accept- further questions be placed on the Notice able form of divestment. Paper. Does Senator Parer possess shares or similar ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT interests in any company or business involved NOTICE in the area of his portfolio responsibilities? The answer to that question is yes, he does. Minister for Resources and Energy Has Senator Parer divested himself of these Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— shares and interests? The answer is, of course, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.04 that he has not. Is he in compliance with this p.m.)—I move: much discredited prime ministerial code of That the Senate take note of the answers given conduct? No, he is not. Of course, you could by the Minister for Resources and Energy (Senator look, in relation to ministerial conduct, at Parer), to questions without notice asked today, page 10 of the code: relating to the financial interests of Senator Parer. The nature of their duties is such that they may Despite what is overwhelming evidence to the need to have regard to the interests of members of contrary, Senator Parer is proclaiming that he their immediate families (to the extent that is not guilty of any conflict of interest nor ministers know their interests) as well as their own when ensuring that no conflict or apparent conflict any other sackable offence. But I think it is between interests and duties arises. worth examining closely these protestations of innocence from Senator Parer. Firstly, let us Again, the same problems. But what the look at the issue of the Senate’s requirements opposition in the Senate has been asking in relation to its system of disclosure of today is: what about his compliance with the pecuniary interests. Senator Parer has failed Prime Minister’s requirements for a confiden- to declare to the Registrar of Senators’ Inter- tial declaration of interests from all his ests his directorship of Investment Manage- ministers? ment Pty Ltd, his family trust company. He Here we only have Senator Parer’s word. has failed to declare his shareholding in that Why should we accept it? He would not company or his family trust shareholdings. answer direct questions from Senator Cook Senator Parer claims not to be aware of the which were directed to him in question time letter of 20 March 1997 from the Registrar of today on a range of issues in relation to Senators’ Interests informing all senators of disclosures he made to the Prime Minister. He the requirements to ‘notify actual shares held insists that he fully complied with the Prime by relevant family or business trusts as of 20 Minister’s requirements. We invite him to March 1997’. He claims to be only in techni- table confidential documentation in the Senate cal breach of the guidelines. But he conveni- to prove that that is the case. ently fails to mention the fact—he ignores the The truth is that on those three grounds— fact—that he has also failed to declare his the Senate requirements, the ministerial code shareholding in Queensland Coal Management of conduct and the Prime Minister’s confiden- ESP. This was a requirement of the Senate tial declaration; on all three counts—Senator disclosure system from the very beginning. It Parer has failed. He is a liability to the is not a technical breach; it is a serious government. Our view is that there is no breach. alternative for him but to resign or be sacked Then there is the issue of compliance with by the Prime Minister. (Time expired) the code of conduct of the Prime Minister (Mr Senator MacGIBBON (Queensland) (9.09 Howard). That is now an infamous and much p.m.)—I am not going to give respectability discredited document. Surely we need to go to a perfectly scurrilous attack on the charac- 956 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 ter of one of the best senators in this place. I Senator Parer jumped on the point I made have known Senator Parer longer than anyone yesterday. I will repeat it for him if he wants in this parliament. I knew him many years to jump on it every time and grab it like a before he came in here 12 years ago. Senator lifeline. I do not think Senator Parer would Parer’s integrity, his honesty and his probity ever deliberately go out and enrich himself in is beyond dispute in any way at all; way this area by an action to favour a particular beyond challenge. He is a fit and proper company where he has an investment. But person to discharge the duties of a minister in neither will I accuse Senator Short or Senator this place. That ought to be the end of the Gibson of that. They breached the ministerial argument. code. They went; Senator Parer does not go. Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (3.10 The other side gets upset when we question p.m.)—We have just heard from Senator the basis of these financial arrangements. But MacGibbon on this. Senator MacGibbon, the he was someone, absent from a meeting in Prime Minister marched into the House of 1993—but, nevertheless, as chairman of that Representatives, puffed up, in May 1996 and area later concurring—who got 16 C-class said, ‘I’m setting a whole new standard.’ He shares at $1 each which, within three years, implicitly criticised the previous government, have a minimum value, because they cannot even though a lot was drawn from the cabinet be established at the maximum, of $2.3 handbook. We are simply asking that Senator million. He has to explain that to the battlers. Parer and every other minister observe those How many battlers can go out and get given standards. sixteen $1 shares that have a value three years later of $2.3 million? The income stream from There is no use saying that we are being those shares to the family investment com- scurrilous in this. The first question we raised pany to the family trust in 1995 was $99,000. was: why didn’t Senator Parer comply with In 1996 the two payments into the family the March 1997 directive from the registrar? trust totalled $290,000. Not bad going for a What is his response to that, Senator battler. But the really strange thing is that MacGibbon? ‘I’m guilty,’ he says. We have Senator Parer cannot seem to remember any established that. It is not a completely thread- of this. He cannot remember the odd $99,000, bare assault on Senator Parer. Then we asked the $149,000 and the $140,000 cheques the second question: why didn’t you declare coming in. your 44 shares which were declarable long before the March 1997 directive? We did not Senator Chris Evans—Small change. really get an explanation as to why they were Senator ROBERT RAY—You are right, not declared. We asked him whether he Senator Evans. Is it small change? Those declared them to the Prime Minister. Through things should be answered. The biggest joke all the fog of the answer I got the impression of all is that Senator Hill comes in here and that he did not. Then we hear the Prime says that the Prime Minister has cleared him, Minister over there in the other place abso- that it is okay by him. That has sent the boat lutely asserting that he was notified of the 44 out very quickly. Is the Prime Minister the shares. We need to clear that up. one to really judge in this particular case? At The one thing that is difficult for Senator least the Prime Minister says that he relies on MacGibbon or anyone else to argue about is the judgment of his senior public servant Mr the clear reference in the ministerial code of Max Moore-Wilton, the most political ap- conduct to disposing of shares which directly pointee in the history since federation. affect your portfolio area. He did not do that. It is so coincidental that he brings down his They were not easy to dispose of—we can see report on 9 May and then on 10 May at 9 that. But if he had let us know that he had o’clock in the morning the Prime Minister them and that he had difficulty in disposing rings Dr Shergold and says, ‘I want you now of them we would have some idea that there to do a review of Mr Max Moore-Wilton’s was a potential or a perceived conflict of entitlements because the horrible senators interest. have been raising it in the Senate committee Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 957 the week before.’ Then the same Dr Shergold other side of how a trust actually works. We gets promoted in December last year to do not really know whether whoever is departmental secretary. feeding all this stuff to the opposition has If you want to bring in someone to judge ever really looked at the memorandum and this, bring in a neutral judge. Putting Max articles of association of this company. Sena- Moore-Wilton in charge of this particular tor Ray seems to be aware that we are look- investigation is like putting Dracula in charge ing at C class shares, which invariably have of the blood bank. But if there is anyone I restrictions, and, of course, Senator Parer has feel sorry for—and he does not want me to said until he is practically blue in the face mention it—it is Senator Brian Gibson. that the trust has 16 non-voting shares. We Senator Brian Gibson left executive office for almost need to put the words to a song here— the most minuscule thing—nothing like this. ‘16 non-voting shares’—but the message does (Time expired) not seem to be getting through. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I call It is very difficult to value shares, and Senator Coonan. certainly we question the sorts of values of non-voting shares that have been tossed Senator Faulkner—See if you can go for around here at random as Senator Ray sought longer than one minute, which is all David to do when he took note. These are not MacGibbon could do. publicly listed shares. They are certainly not Senator COONAN (New South Wales) easily divested. They are very difficult to (3.15 p.m.)—Yes, Senator Faulkner, I will market. I think Senator Cook said all you certainly be going longer than a minute have to do is consent to sell the shares in because isn’t it about time that we got a bit Queensland Coal Mine Management Pty Ltd. of reality into this? This is approaching the That’s a laugh! If it were that easy to get rid farcical. Finally we get as an interjection from of non-voting shares, I am sure a lot of Senator Robert Ray that what seems to be people would do so with alacrity. worrying the opposition comes down to just The truth of the matter is that you do not a perception that there might be some in- have much control over non-voting shares, fringement. For goodness sake! and certainly very few people want to buy Isn’t it about time that we, as the elected them if they cannot exercise any vote in representatives of this country, actually relation to their interest. So the matter of addressed the real issues affecting the people whether or not there is a market for non- of Australia rather than going on with this voting shares is critical in this case, and it is eternal trawling about things that real people certainly one that ought to excuse Senator out there do not seem to be really too worried Parer from having to adopt the sort of wild about? Real people out there must be rubbing values that have been tossed around in this their eyes in disbelief at what has taken the chamber. time of this chamber for the last couple of Quite apart from the fact that there has been days. The real issues and the real problems do no conflict of interest at all, there is further not seem to be of the remotest concern to evidence—and I cannot believe that those on Senator Ray, Senator Faulkner and those in the other side of the chamber would not the opposition. accept Senator Parer on this—that he has I wonder how many people are actually obtained no personal benefit from his lying awake at night wondering about Senator ministerial responsibilities. That is really the Parer’s family trust. There is not one shred of critical issue. There is absolutely nothing to evidence to suggest that Senator Parer has suggest that he has ever had any personal ever misused his office for any improper benefit from his office. Senator Parer has not purpose or even an allegation that he has been breached the ministerial guidelines and the guilty of some actual conflict of interest. Not worst that can be said is that there is some only is this a grubby exercise; it shows the technical breach of the Senate explanatory utter lack of appreciation by those on the note. Are you really going to seek to hang 958 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Senator Parer for this? As I said when I Where are those words now? Does the started my speech, let us get a bit of reality Prime Minister uphold his own standards? He into this debate. It is time that this is played has been silent on this. He will not answer out. I say to honourable senators on the other that question. He needs to set his consistency side, give it a rest. on the line. He either upholds the standards Senator COOK (Western Australia— he has imposed or he does not. And if he Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the does not he is a hypocrite and he never Senate) (3.20 p.m.)—That was an amazing intended those standards to be upheld anyway. speech; I don’t know that it would hold up It was simply a way of gulling the Australian anywhere but in this chamber. This question electorate. is about probity in public office and, most of Short said at the time that he had made a all, it is about the integrity of the Prime ‘careless and distressing oversight’. He con- Minister. It is about that because the Prime fessed to an apparent conflict of interest. We Minister himself declared to the Australian have here a similar confession to an apparent electorate before the election that he would conflict of interest by the Minister for Re- bring new standards, and after the election he sources and Energy (Senator Parer), who has did. Although they embodied most of the said, in a quaint way of putting it, ‘I made a ministerial handbook, he declared what those technical mistake.’ There is no provision for standards are and they are on the public technical; you either made one or you didn’t record. The particular standard under debate and a confession of a mistake is a confession here is: of a mistake. He also went on to say that he Ministers are required to divest themselves of all did not read the letter that alerted him to what shares and similar interests in any company or his public duty was. Since when was that a business involved in the area of their portfolio defence? Try standing up in a court and responsibilities. saying that you did not know what the law The transfer of interests to a family member or to was and therefore you are innocent. That is a nominee or trust is not an acceptable form of exactly what is being said here. Why should divestment. that standard apply to ordinary Australians That is the Prime Minister’s own standard. and not to a minister of the Crown? Why can We have just heard that that is fine as long as a minister of the Crown say, ‘I didn’t know; you can’t say that the person has benefited therefore I am innocent,’ but an ordinary from them in his own right. That is a prepos- Australian say, ‘I didn’t know what the law terous notion. It says, in the Prime Minister’s was,’ and be convicted? That is a direct own standards, that there cannot be any comparison of their hypocrisy on this matter. ‘apparent conflict’ between the exercise of There is a series of comparisons I would public duty and that of the private potential like to make—and I know that I will not have gain of the individual minister. time to complete the list—between Senator It is not just a matter here of whether there Short’s conduct and the conduct we are now was an actual conflict; it is also a matter of witnessing from Senator Parer. Senator Short whether there is a potential conflict and it is confessed to owning 6,679 ANZ shares, also a matter of whether there is an appear- through the Short family trust, worth approxi- ance of conflict. This is the well trodden area mately $64,000 at the time of his resignation. of law that justice has to be done and justice Senator Parer owns just over one per cent of has to be seen to be done. Both precepts have the issued capital in QCMM Pty Ltd, worth to be met. Let us compare this case with what an estimated $2.3 million. Is it because of the happened to Senator Short. On 14 October higher value of the shares that a different 1996 the Prime Minister said, in the case of level of conduct is acceptable? Is it because Senator Short after he had resigned, that there Senator Short was a supporter of the Prime was ‘an apparent conflict of interest’. Those Minister but not a personal mate, as is Sena- are the words of the Prime Minister in the tor Parer? Is that why a different standard of case of Senator Short. conduct is acceptable? Is that what it means? Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 959

Senator Short went on to say that he had also made a number of other points, as Sena- held the shares in the trust, the ANZ Bank, tor Parer has done: there was no personal for a considerable amount of time and that benefit out of the arrangements that were put this holding had been recorded in the Register in place; there is no conflict of interest in of Senators’ Interests since its inception. Parer carrying out his job. These are very important claims, as some sort of defence, that the trust aspects of what we have here before us at this has been in existence for 28 years and that he particular time. has a one-ninth interest in it. This must mean I had the benefit not so long ago of being that he is one of nine family beneficiaries. At in Kalgoorlie with Senator Parer. What did he least Short declared it. do? He got on and dealt with the issues The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator before us. In Kalgoorlie he discussed the Cook, could you please use their correct problems that the goldfields and the mineral titles? fields of Western Australia have with native Senator COOK—At least Senator Short title, which I have already mentioned. He declared it; Senator Parer did not. (Time talked about the issues of transport, the prob- expired) lems there and the need for infrastructure dev- elopment to assist in the great industries we Senator CRANE (Western Australia) (3.25 have in my state in those particular areas. p.m.)—I too would like to enter this debate There was no conflict of interest whatsoever and make a number of points. It is quite or any pretence of conflict of interest in what obvious from the tactics we have seen here Senator Parer was doing in carrying out his involving our colleague Senator Parer and particular job and in performing his responsi- what occurred last week that the Labor Party bilities as a minister. And to try to run a com- came back after the break with one intent, and parison between other people and Senator that was to sling mud, slur and try to pick Parer and his particular position is absolutely individuals out and not deal with the issues a nonsense argument and position to be in. that are required to be dealt with today— Senator Cook has left the chamber. He may particularly when we have the Native Title have aspired at one time to be a lawyer but Amendment Bill coming back into this place. after that contribution he has a long way to This is just a sloppy, dirty diversion away go. He is certainly no Rumpole as far as I am from the real issues facing Australia. concerned. We hear from those on the other side about Returning to the issues that are very import- Senator Parer using the words ‘technical ant: there is no conflict of interest, no profit breach’, which he did. But I have never heard and no voting rights. What more do you want such a mishmash of argument as that put from a particular individual? What amazes me before us in that last contribution from Sena- most is, and it also applies to the Democrats tor Cook. You could not even call it a techni- and that silly question that was asked by their cal argument. In fact, one could quite fairly leader, Senator Meg Lees today: why do they and freely say that Senator Cook mislead this so desperately hate anybody who is success- place when he said that the Prime Minister ful? I thought we should have this place full (Mr Howard) remained silent on this. Aren’t of successful people—people who know how you aware that the Prime Minister went into to run a business, how to do things, how to be the other place last night and made a state- successful. I doubt whether you can find one ment? For your benefit I will quote it. I will senator on the other side who has ever made read out a couple of these points: a buck of their own, who has ever taken their I inform the House that I am satisfied on the basis shirt off their back and done a decent day’s of the advice I have received since question time hard work. And here you are attacking the that Senator Parer has not breached the ministerial man who has done it himself. He is a self- guidelines. made person who has contributed an enor- That is from the Prime Minister himself. If mous amount to this economy of ours. You the Prime Minister stands up in the other should be congratulating him for his perform- place and says that, then I am satisfied. He ance. 960 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Senator McGauran—Take your shirts off! ownership of shares in coalmining in this Senator CRANE—Yes, take your shirts country. off, absolutely. You have never risked a dollar of your own or put a bit of risk capital out in For the Prime Minister, however, there is a the investment field. This is really just a slur more substantial question still—not that the campaign to try to put individuals down and issues regarding Senator Parer in themselves a refusal to address the issues. are trifling affairs. What the Prime Minister said in regard to Jim Short when he laid down Senator Mackay—Like Senator Bolkus. the benchmark here on 10 October 1996 was Senator CRANE—We saw today another that he felt that, although Senator Short, as he rise in employment, albeit a small one, but it then was, did in fact breach the guidelines, it is coming up. You mention Senator Bolkus. was only a minor breach. That was his first What did he do? He is trying to keep Skase position. He said that he thought that, while out of the country— he believed that Senator Short did not comply Senator Mackay—You slurred him. and had acknowledged that to the Senate, he had discussed the matter with Senator Short. Senator CRANE—I did not slur Senator He had considered sacking him but he felt Bolkus. He brought it on his own head. He that, because there was no personal benefit read out confidential documents and got directly to the Assistant Treasurer, as he was caught; that is what happened to Senator at the time, that he had made no consideration Bolkus. He absolutely trapped himself in. directly to benefit himself, as he saw it, it I come back to this matter. Why do you involved no impropriety. So Senator Short, as hate somebody who makes a profit and makes he was then, ought not be forced from the a success? At the end of the day there is no ministry. He said: conflict of interest. The Prime Minister has looked at the issue very carefully and he is I think anybody who knows Senator Short will be satisfied, and if the Prime Minister of this aware that he has not been guilty of any deliberate dishonesty. In all the circumstances, I do not country is satisfied with that particular ex- believe that he has profited from any deliberate planation, so am I, and so should everyone decisions. I do not think the ownership of those else in this chamber be. ANZ Bank shares influenced decisions that he took. Senator CARR (Victoria) (3.30 p.m.)— In those circumstances, I have taken the decision There are two fundamental questions involved that I have and I remain confident of the minister’s capacity. here. There is the question of whether or not Senator Parer has been open and direct in his Of course, the problem for Senator Short and declarations to this parliament under the for the Prime Minister was that by the week- pecuniary interest requirements of the Senate, end, by 11 October 1996, Minister Short was and there is the issue as to whether or not the writing a letter to the Prime Minister resign- Prime Minister has failed in his duty to ing his portfolio. He said that he had become uphold the ministerial guidelines that he aware, as a result of staff going through his himself has flourished as a great hallmark of papers, that he had in fact undertaken a his government and the allegedly higher number of decisions involving ANZ interests. standards that he is representing in this What he said in a letter to the Prime Minister country at the moment. was that he had found several dozen approv- In the first instance, it is undoubtedly the als relating to the administration of banking case, as Senator Parer himself acknowledges, laws. In his letter to Mr Howard, according to that there has been at the very minimum, on the Sydney Morning Herald of 14 October, his own admission, a technical breach. There Senator Short said that the ANZ request was is a more fundamental question, however, as a routine one and his approval had been based to whether or not that technical breach goes on the recommendation of both the Reserve to the issue of whether there has been a more Bank and the Treasurer. There were no fundamental conflict of interest between his grounds on which the request might have activities as the minister for coal and his been decided differently. He said: Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 961

My approval was influenced in no way whatsoever That senators be discharged from and appointed by the fact of my shareholding in the ANZ Bank. to committees as follows: When I spoke with you on Wednesday evening I Employment, Education and Training References had not recalled having given the particular approv- Committee— al, and similarly during the Senate sittings on the Thursday. Now my attention has been drawn to that Participating member: Senator Carr for the approval, I feel that the circumstances of the matter committee’s inquiry into employment levels and have changed, and in light of this I have given the regional unemployment deepest consideration to the circumstances and I Substitute member: Senator Mackay to replace have decided to tender to you my resignation as Senator Carr for the committee’s inquiry into Assistant Treasurer. employment levels and regional unemployment What is a difference between Senator Short, Publications—Standing Committee— as he then was, and Senator Parer now? Appointed: Senator Carr The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The Discharged: Senator Colston time for debate has expired. Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legis- Question resolved in the affirmative. lation Committee— Substitute member: Senator Lundy to replace NOTICES OF MOTION Senator Forshaw for the consideration of the provisions of the Australian Capital Territory Superannuation Committee (Planning and Land Management) Amendment Senator CALVERT (Tasmania)—by Bill 1997. leave—On behalf of Senator Watson, I give INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS AND notice that, on the next day of sitting, he will move: EMPLOYMENT POLICIES That the Select Committee on Superannuation be Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.37 authorised to hold a public meeting during the p.m.)—I move: sitting of the Senate on 23 March and 24 March The Senate notes, with concern, that: 1998, from 7 p.m., to take evidence for the committee’s inquiry into the provisions of the (a) despite coming to office pledging to reduce Commonwealth Superannuation Board Bill 1997 youth and long-term unemployment by the Superannuation Legislation (Commonwealth boosting economic growth, the policies of Employment) Repeal and Amendment Bill 1997 the Howard Government have in fact deliv- and the Superannuation Legislation (Common- ered: wealth Employment—Saving and Transitional (i) a 15 per cent increase in long-term unem- Provisions) Bill 1997. ployment since March 1996, (ii) a fall in employment growth from 2.9 per DOCUMENTS cent per year during the last term of the Work of Committees Labor Government, to 1.4 per cent per year under the Coalition, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—On behalf (iii) an increase in the youth unemployment of the President, I present a document entitled rate from 27.4 per cent to 28.4 per cent Work of committees for the period 1 January since March 1996, and to 31 December 1997. (iv) a fall in economic growth from 4.7 per Ordered that the report be printed. cent to 3.6 per cent since March 1996; (b) the Government’s response to this disastrous COMMITTEES employment picture has been to contract out the responsibility for its failures by abolish- Membership ing the Commonwealth Employment Service The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The Presi- and introducing a ‘market-based’ approach dent has received letters from the Leader of to employment services, without parlia- the Opposition in the Senate and an inde- mentary scrutiny and excluding many hun- pendent senator seeking variations to the dreds of community-based employment service providers with excellent track re- membership of certain committees. cords and priceless intellectual property; Motion (by Senator Ellison)—by leave— (c) the Government has introduced this funda- agreed to: mentally flawed employment policy with a 962 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

tender process which has been secretive, has growth above four per cent. But what has demonstrated no link between resource happened is that, under the policies of this allocation and need, and fails to deal with government, growth has reduced by one per ongoing issues such as performance moni- toring and purchaser/provider dispute resolu- cent. That is an indictment in itself. But there tion; and is more. (d) the Government’s policy, despite being Let us have a look at the situation with promoted as more flexible and effective, is no more than a cynical measure designed to regard to the average rate of economic growth artificially deliver a lower long-term unem- achieved under the Howard government. ployment rate by actively excluding from Average economic growth is three per cent. the employment services market 400 000 In Labor’s last term of office the average rate unemployed people who are not on benefits, of growth was 4.5 per cent. That is a 1½ per people over 50 and people who have been cent difference. In Labor’s full 13 years in in case management for more than 39 weeks. office the average annual rate of economic growth was 3.7 per cent—more, right through I thought I would start off by anticipating the the recession in the early 1990s, than this speakers from the government who will, no government has managed to achieve in two doubt, talk about the unemployment figures years when the commitment was four per that were released today. I would like to point cent. In the calendar year 1997, the first full out, before the chortling from the government, year of the Howard government, the economy that what we have is a flatline employment grew by just 2.8 per cent, despite an OECD situation. Employment is stuck at 8.1 per cent. prediction of 2.9 per cent. The other key fact is that there has been no improvement whatsoever in youth unemploy- Let us go through this litany of mismanage- ment since this government was elected. ment. The transport industry also recorded I would like to go through the economic negative growth in the December quarter of situation because I am sick to death of the minus one per cent. Corporate profit, some- nonsense coming from Peter Costello with thing they are very fond of trumpeting here, regard to the economic situation in Australia actually fell by 0.4 per cent in the quarter. and the selective quoting of statistics that he Despite the fact that inflation continues to is so good at. Let us have a look at it. remain low, the major deflators—private con- sumption and GDP—all show a rise in infla- One figure they do not talk a lot about on tion. Let us have a look at savings. The the other side of the chamber is growth. The household saving ratio fell from 3.9 per cent reality is that last week’s national account fig- to 3.1 per cent. The ratio was 3.6 per cent ures showed economic growth for the year to when Labor left office. The manufacturing December as 3.6 per cent. You cannot get sector, a very important sector and a major genuine employment growth in an economy job creator, recorded negative growth of unless you get over the hurdle of four per minus 0.6 per cent in the December quarter. cent to 4.5 per cent growth. Who said that? That is outrageous in such a labour intensive Who said you have to get at least four per sector. cent growth before you can make a real dint in unemployment? I bet you he has rued the Employment growth since March 1996 has day he made the statement. It was the Prime averaged just 1.4 per cent compared to almost Minister, Mr Howard, who said that. Yet in three per cent under Labor. Long-term unem- the whole two years that this government has ployment, the most serious and difficult form been in they have not cracked the four per of unemployment to deal with, has risen 15 cent. What was the growth rate when Labor per cent since the Prime Minister took the axe went out of office? It was 4.6 per cent. So in to Working Nation. This is outrageous. As I two years of coalition government growth has said before, in the entire term of this govern- dropped. That is the first point. It was prob- ment there has been no improvement in youth ably a non-core promise but it was a commit- unemployment, despite the commitment they ment by this government that it would get gave that youth unemployment was a high Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 963 priority. Secondly, we have a situation where, Senator MACKAY—That’s right; it has as I said before, 8.1 per cent is flatline. not even started yet and look at all the disas- ters that are emerging already. It is one of the The economy, the government says, is most mismanaged, maladministered messes going really well. It says the preconditions are that I have ever seen. I think it is the most there and all we have to do is wait. To quote mismanaged, maladministered mess that this the previous minister for employment, Senator government has created. That is the reality. Vanstone, it is a bit like a farmer waiting for the drought to break. The drought still has not How did all of this commence? The previ- broken and the reason the drought still has ous minister for employment, Senator not broken is that nothing has happened in Vanstone, introduced a bill. The opposition this economy under this government for two was successful in getting amendments to that years. bill, which included a reference to universality and which included reference to a public Senator Calvert—Hasn’t it? service. No way. The government did not like Senator MACKAY—That is right. Nothing that. The bill was pulled; they ran away. They has happened. A growth rate of 3.6 per cent could not take the heat. They could not take is not a good result. It is a shocking result, the public scrutiny so they pulled the bill. Senator Calvert. It was 4.6 per cent when we They proceeded anyway and what an absolute left office. disaster that has been. Let us have a look at the figures today. The If you do not believe me—as I am sure number of full-time jobs fell in Australia in those on the other side do not—listen to what February by 7,000. Do you know why? the Australian of 28 February 1998 had to say Because what this government is doing is about this new market approach to employ- creating a casualised and part-time work ment services. It says: force, and the strategy is absolutely deliberate. Providing a bounty of up to $10,000 for a success- One of the most important things that came ful job placement for someone who is defined as out yesterday was the consumer confidence long-term unemployed seems, however, a system figures. I wonder if anybody on the other side ripe for exploitation. had a look at those. The consumer confidence They got it in one. They were absolutely figures fell in March by 10 per cent, which is correct—‘ripe for exploitation’. Gary the second largest monthly fall in this decade. Hardgrave, the Liberal member from Queens- That is extremely serious. land, said: Senator Synon—Ooh! I am angry about the awarding of contracts because many community providers with strong records of Senator MACKAY—Well you may go helping the unemployed missed out on contracts. ‘Ooh!’ but that is extremely serious. Con- So, if you do not believe the opposition and sumer confidence falling by 10 per cent with the Australian editorial, what about one of the economy in such a difficult situation is your own people who made that statement? very serious. With the Asian crisis yet to hit He should be angry because that is exactly it is very serious. If the people on the other what happened. side think it is funny then you do not deserve to get re-elected and you will not. Let us revisit—and see if we can actually get it through to the government—what is What has the government done in the face happening with the 400,000 people who will of this situation? They have introduced the not be eligible for employment services. Let deregulation of the employment services us just go through it one more time because market to supposedly help unemployed we still have not had assurances from the people. What a disaster that has been. I said government in relation to it. The reality is: if it the other day and I will repeat it— you are unemployed and not on benefit, you Senator Synon—It hasn’t even started yet. are not entitled to access to employment How can it be a disaster? services for free. 964 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Senator Synon—And you never were under defence force personnel spouses because they Labor. are not on benefit. Minister, I would be very Senator MACKAY—With the CES you pleased if you would give a rock-solid com- were. We have heard nothing but weasel mitment—not a core or non-core commit- words from Dr Kemp with regard to this. He ment—that you will guarantee that these is saying, ‘Nobody will be turned away in people will be given access to employment terms of access.’ I think Senator Ellison may services. Women wishing to re-enter the work have said the same thing. What does that force with partners who work—the ones who mean—that you are not going to be thrown can actually afford child care these days, out of an office when you walk in? I want given the cuts to child care—are denied this government to give an absolute guarantee access to employment services. They cannot that every single person who is unemployed get it. This really is an outrage. People know will have free access to employment services. it is an outrage, and I would suggest that you That is what we want. We want that guaran- are not going to get away with it. Tom tee. Connors from the West Australian said on 11 March: Let us revisit the long-term unemployment Jobless Australians deserve a free employment figures. We have a situation where long-term service. Only the heartless would say otherwise. unemployment has increased by 15 per cent under this government. What is the govern- Only the heartless would say that. This ment doing for long-term unemployed people? government is heartless and mean spirited. If you are long-term unemployed and not on You could go on and on about this disaster. benefit, you do not get—and I said it the Let us have a look at the resource allocation. other day—a cracker. You do not get any How were FLEX 3 resources allocated, assistance whatsoever. Let us just clarify this Minister? Were they allocated on the basis of because you have to listen very carefully to long-term unemployment? They were not. what Dr Kemp and Minister Ellison have said FLEX 3 resources were not allocated on the in relation to this. If you are not on benefit, basis of long-term unemployment. There is no you will not get assistance. If you have been nexus between FLEX 3 allocation and long- unemployed for 12 months, you will not get term unemployment rates. Do you know what assistance. Who said this? Not the opposi- you have done? I know what you have done. tion—Employment National. Employment You have done actually allocated resources on National said, ‘Sorry, we’re interested in the basis of job opportunities, not where long- profit. We’re running things on a market term unemployed people actually are. Let me basis. If somebody, not on benefit, has been explain what you have done because I know registered as long-term unemployed for 12 what you have done. It is very simple. It is months, we will not help them. We are in the allocated on the basis of job opportunities. business of making a profit.’ That is fine; I That means that you—the government—have cannot blame them for that because this given more resources disproportionately to government set up that precondition. Again, those areas where people have more chance Minister, I would be very interested if this of getting a job. That is why the major factor government would give a commitment that in relation to FLEX 3 allocation is job oppor- every single person who is long-term unem- tunities. ployed and not necessarily on benefit will be What does that do? It means that long-term given access to employment services to the unemployed people who are lucky enough to same extent as those people who are long- live in areas where there are jobs will get term unemployed and on benefit. That is what them—let us hope that they do—and those we want. long-term unemployed people who live in Access to employment services for the areas where there is not enough FLEX 3 retrenched worker who is living off his or her allocated will not. What will they get? They redundancy payments is denied. We still have will get work for the dole. What will we not had an assurance to free services for have? We will have jobless ghettos. If this Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 965 government is serious about saying to the What happens to the long-term unemployed Australian people that the allocation of FLEX job seekers who go along to the provider and 3 for long-term unemployed people—that is, get put on the books and remain on there for intensive assistance—was done on a fair 52 weeks? If they are really hard cases, after dinkum basis, show us the modelling. Show 52 weeks they are put off the provider’s us how you did it. Show us how you actually books. Do you know what they have to do got the figures and show us how it was then? They have to wait to requalify for allocated. I, for one, would be extremely intensive assistance and all they are entitled interested to see it. to is FLEX 1. How did the minister, Dr Kemp, deliver the I would like to spend the remaining time so-called good news about this new service? looking at what this flawed and biased tender- I think I have already indicated that there ing process delivered. Let us look at what were some real doubts about the allocation of happened to those hardworking, committed FLEX 3 in relation to the tender documents. people in the community sector and the Did the minister say that there are X number private sector who missed out. Mary-Louise of FLEX 3 places—that is, intensive assist- Petro of Sisters of Mercy, St Mary’s—this ance—for here and there are X number of issue has had a lot of coverage—was quoted places for there? No, he gave ticks. If you in the Financial Review as saying: have a look at his papers, you will see that We are having to close Mamre Employment there are ticks—FLEX 3, tick; FLEX 1, tick. Services in St Mary’s. We have made 10 highly He did not indicate how many places. It was efficient staff redundant. quite deliberate. In the press conference he Let us look at some case studies. Key Train- obfuscated when asked that question by ing, established in 1989, has been providing journalists. He would not give that response. case management services in Tasmania since Why? The reality is that the resources have 1995 and has a placement rate of 43 per cent, diminished. There is a cut. We will find out which is 6.3 per cent higher than the CES about this. itself and other similar providers in the re- When Dr Kemp made the announcement, he gion. Key Training has received numerous set himself some benchmarks, which is very industry awards—too many to mention here— interesting. It is good that we have bench- and under the recent round of tenders got marks, but it is a pity that we do not have a nothing. As a result of this, 12 staff are being jobs target. One benchmark is that during the retrenched at Key Training. first 19 months 840,000 will be matched Victoria’s Strategic Training and Employ- vacancies. What does that mean? Does it ment Placement Services, STEPS, which was mean that 840,000 people will get jobs or established in 1996, has been providing case does it mean matched? Perhaps you can management services at Broadmeadows since clarify that, Minister Ellison. Does it mean that time. Both the principals of this organisa- they will get the jobs? I do not think so. Here tion have been working with the long-term again are weasel words. unemployed for over 30 years and were previ- ously CES area managers. It has a placement The second lot says that 540,000 will be rate of 34 per cent, which is four per cent given intensive assistance—that is, FLEX 3. higher than EEA and other similar providers. Do you know what that means? It means they It did not get anything either and is expecting will go along to a provider and get registered. to retrench four experienced staff as a result. It is $1,500 in the provider’s pocket. That is what Dr Kemp means when he says that I conclude by saying that this is a disaster. 540,000 will be given intensive assistance. This is why day after day the government is That is why they are called FLEX 3 com- getting community provider after community mencements in the tender documents. I provider saying the process was a shonk, the suggest you read it, Minister. These so-called results are a shonk and they will not deliver benchmarks and targets are arrant nonsense. any genuine services to unemployed people, 966 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 particularly to the area most in need—that is, tion government’s record on employment the long-term unemployed. creation. Senator SYNON (Victoria) (3.57 p.m.)— We have created 14,800 places of employ- Considering the experience of 13 years of ment in February alone. You created 16,000 Labor government, I find it very difficult to in six years. What a pathetic effort. We all believe that we are here debating this motion remember when unemployment reached 11.2 today. Senator Mackay, since you feel so per cent in December 1992—the highest level strongly about the unemployed, you might of unemployment in the postwar era. That stay in the chamber for the debate. Today of was under your government: congratulations all days we have had the best job news for to you. We all remember when from March over seven years. The ABS announced today 1991 to November 1994, nearly three years, that 8,529,000 people are in work in Austral- unemployment did not fall below nine per ia—the highest number ever in Australia’s cent; and when in December 1992 youth history. There was an increase of 14,800 in unemployment reached 31.4 per cent. Inciden- February alone and and increase of 140,600 tally, in today’s figures it is down to 26.4 per jobs in the six months to February. Listen to cent. Under you, it was 31.4 per cent; it is this, Senator Mackay: the seasonal unemploy- now down to 26.4 per cent. ment rate is at 8.1 per cent, the lowest since Senator Hogg—That is nothing to be proud December 1990—more than seven years. of. Today there are 8,529,000 people in employ- Senator SYNON—We are not resting on ment in Australia—the highest number in our laurels; as I have said, we will continue Australia’s history. to do anything within our power to give a job But this government is not going to rest on to every person in this country who wants its laurels. The coalition is committed to one. None of us will ever forget the 1.3 working towards the goal of giving a job to million Australians who, under Labor, could every Australian who wants a job. It is a goal not find the level of employment they wanted. we are proud of. It is a legitimate goal that Who can forget those billboards all around only a government that genuinely cares for Australia: one million unemployed? the people of Australia could have. It is a I am not necessarily blaming Senator goal which in 13 years the ALP never even Mackay for the policies of the Captain Wacky tried to reach. Unemployment rates went up government. Given that the senator was never under the ALP, and let us never ever forget part of that government, I can only assume it. When this government came into office we that she is as embarrassed by its record as we pledged to reduce youth and long-term unem- on this side of the chamber are disgusted, ployment by boosting economic growth. I because when Senator Mackay raises the issue must say that our record is far better than that of unemployment in this chamber she never of those who sit on the other side of the mentions Labor’s record. She is ashamed of chamber and seek to trivialise the debate it. today. The Hawke-Keating governments did spend In the ‘recession we had to have’ the ALP money though. As I have said before and will destroyed 338,900 jobs; let us think about that doubtless say again: Labor governments are another way: 338,900 people’s lives. I hope very, very good at spending money. Working you are proud of that. When Mr Beazley was Nation, the $12 billion disaster, springs minister for employment, long-term unem- immediately to mind—or Non-Working Na- ployment increased by 95,000 people. In the tion, as it was called by many. Many of those six years from July 1990 to March 1996, young people who were churned through when the ALP was in government, only training program after training program after 16,000 full-time jobs were created—in six training program called it Training Nation. years. It is laughable that you come into this The Labor government’s message to young chamber today and wish to debate the coali- people was that being on the dole was an Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 967 acceptable alternative to education and train- impossibility’—an impossibility. Well, you ing, an acceptable alternative to looking for have sold out the Australian public too soon. work. Let the Australian people never forget In 1994 the OECD made a statement about that, under Working Nation, when you were training programs like Working Nation. After in a training program, you were considered to a comprehensive study of developed be working. What a joke. What a manipula- countries’ traditional responses to unemploy- tion of the unemployment figures. It is some- ment and their training programs, such as thing of which I think you should be asham- Working Nation, the OECD concluded that ed. there was ‘meagre support for the hypothesis In the Bulletin last year, the attitude in- that such programs are effective’—meagre stilled by the Labor Party was showcased in support. an unemployment snapshot of young people Money is not the answer. We do have an living at Broken Head. Johnny Abegg, 17, left unemployment problem in this country, and school early and is on the dole because ‘it the unemployed people out there deserve helps out the oldies’. Matt Chelman, 21, who some innovative creative responses. We has not worked since leaving school: cannot continue with the responses of the last We’re all on the dole. You get addicted to it after two decades which have not worked in Aus- a while . . . Look, I’m happy on the dole. It suits tralia and, according to the OECD, have not me and it keeps you out of trouble. worked in any other country, just because you are not imaginative enough or courageous These are our young people, the future of our enough to tackle new things. This government country—and I hold the ALP directly respon- is. sible for this attitude. Senator Hogg—You haven’t done any- But this is not surprising, when you con- thing. sider the labour market programs that Labor devised. In 1995-96 the ALP spent $2.7 Senator SYNON—Let me tell you, Senator billion on labour market programs, and Hogg, what our results are— unemployment rose. But Labor’s labour The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! market programs did not work. Take New Address the Chair please, Senator Synon. Work Opportunities, for example, a labour Senator SYNON—I am sorry, Madam market program which had an outcome of 21 Deputy President—116,100 new full-time per cent. Not too bad, you might think. But, jobs: the strongest job growth in 2½ years. In when compared with a comparison control the past five months under our government, group of 17 per cent, the outcome was four there has been the creation of 141,800 new per cent—four per cent net outcome and jobs. As I said before, that translates into a $143,000 a place. But, in addition, most of seven-year low of unemployment rate of 8.1 those people had already taken part in a per cent. previous training program; that is, more money on labour market programs which did Yes, we have replaced the old CES—and, not fix the problem—the training merry-go- yes, it needed to be replaced. It had a success round. Is it any wonder that Johnny Abegg rate of less than 20 per cent and was not and Matt Chelman think it is easier to stay on providing adequate service to Australians. So the dole? it had to go. And, yes, we have introduced the new Job Network, a system which will be The Democrats phrased it well—and I more flexible, more responsive and infinitely regret the fact that Senator Stott Despoja has more successful. On 1 May Job Network will left the chamber—when they said in their replace the CES. Job Network is our national unemployment issues paper, ‘The Working network involving more than 300 private Nation program is not about creating new jobs community and government organisations, but reshuffling the unemployed.’ This same which will specialise in finding jobs for paper of the Democrats also concludes, ‘a unemployed people. We are going to focus on goal of every Australian having work is an results, getting unemployed people into jobs, 968 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 giving people help that actually makes a But Senator Mackay’s motion also, surpris- difference. ingly, criticises our tender process— something which I am finding hard to accept And, yes, we are using a market based in light of its rigour. We put in place an approach. We are actually going to pay Job outstanding process to select the best people Network members for placing unemployed in Australia to provide Job Network services. people in jobs. We are going to provide Every one of them went through a very incentives for job placement organisations to rigorous process to test their suitability and find unemployed people jobs. The more financial viability. Every one of them had to disadvantaged the status of the person, the devise a strategy to help unemployed people greater the incentive. This government is not in their area, and every one of them had to about managing or reshuffling the unem- undertake satisfactory access for unemployed ployed. It is about finding them jobs. people to their services. They all had to Job Network is a great opportunity for demonstrate their experience, and they all had unemployed people. It is going to offer access to compete. to thousands more vacancies on a touch Senator Mackay and others were at esti- screen vacancy database and access to 1,404 mates and heard this process discussed and sites around Australia, instead of the fewer have a copy of Mr Sedgewick’s statements than 300 sites the CES offered—over 700 outlining the terms covering the tender pro- more outlets for unemployed people to go to. cess. They know that experienced departmen- That is four times the number of points of tal staff assessed approximately 5,000 bids for access to service for unemployed people. We six service types within 29 labour market are going to provide them with improved regions against stated selection criteria. The access to free computers, telephones and ALP know that the principles established in facsimiles to help them prepare resumes, allocating levels of business to tenderers apply for jobs and find work; flexible assist- included competition, client choice, diversity, ance—assistance actually tailored to the needs value for money and coverage for as many of the individual job seeker; and easier access, job seekers in the market as possible. They most importantly, to apprenticeships and know that to meet these principles a wide traineeships. Apprenticeships, under the range of providers were selected—over 300 previous government, fell to their lowest level of them. in more than 30 years. They also know, and have been told repeat- By offering greater choice to employees and edly, that Blake Dawson Waldron, a highly employers we are letting them decide what respected law firm, was appointed to inde- they want and what services they want to use. pendently monitor procedural integrity It does work. The Westgate Community throughout the tender, and they know that Initiatives Group in Footscray, Melbourne, a they gave this process an unqualified sign-off highly successful and professional community on 24 February. Their statement reads: based nonprofit organisation, offers personal- ised service to its clients, who find it has a On the basis of our observation and inquiries of the Independent Observers we are satisfied that . . . the more comfortable and individualised environ- tender has been conducted in accordance with the ment. One of their unemployed people, probity requirements. We consider that the proced- Despina Sarandogiou, said—I want senators ures outlined in the published tender documentation to listen to this: including the Probity Plan, have been followed . . . we have not identified any evidence of systematic Here I feel like a person whereas at the CES I felt bias, lack of objectivity by assessment teams, like a number. pattern of scoring or ranking which advantaged or Is that how those opposite would have our disadvantaged any particular bidder. young people think of themselves—as a The independent observers are happy. Of number in a bureaucratic machine? Not this course, each tenderer has also been offered government. We are treating these people as the opportunity to be debriefed on how they people. fared, so it can hardly be called a secretive Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 969 process. And of course safeguards have been ones out there creating the jobs, helping job built into the Job Network system. Contracts seekers find jobs and providing a responsive, with Job Network organisations preclude them flexible system to assist them. Our govern- from charging eligible job seekers for employ- ment cares enough about the unemployed to ment services. Job seekers will be afforded try to help. We do not just throw money at protection such as client privacy and the right them. We do not just reshuffle their numbers. for complaints to be referred to the Ombuds- Our government cares enough that we have man. An industry code of conduct lays down done something about unemployment, and the standards that organisations must follow, and record speaks for itself. Today 8,522,000 that code is backed up by a complaints people in Australia are in work—the highest process available to anyone unhappy with the level in the history of this country; an in- service they receive. crease of 14,800 jobs in February alone. Over For the first time in almost 20 years of six years the ALP created just 16,000 jobs. employment service delivery we are offering We have created 140,600 jobs in the six unemployed people a choice. Just because that months to February. The trend unemployment does not sit comfortably with the socialist rate in this country today is 8.1 per cent—the notions expounded on the other side is no lowest level for seven years. reason to criticise the program. Choice should The ALP should be ashamed of themselves. be available to everyone, even the unem- They are obviously ashamed of their record, ployed. because they never discuss it; they never open As for the comments regarding the long- themselves up to scrutiny. This government term unemployed and their exclusion from the does not need to shuffle numbers. This employment services market of various groups government does not need to shuffle the in the community, they are just another unemployed. This government is about getting example of Labor’s misrepresentation of the jobs. This government is getting jobs and will facts and blatant twisting of fundamental continue to do so. truths. The long-term unemployed will be Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- specifically targeted and receive intensive tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian personalised case management. If they are Democrats) (4.17 p.m.)—I rise on behalf of going to get a job, they are going to get it the Australian Democrats this afternoon to under a program like this—not Working support the general business motion before us. Nation, not LEAP, not Jobskills. We on many occasions and again today Let me take on another point—that people express our concern about the seemingly, at who are not registered for benefits are not times, intractable problem of unemployment going to be eligible for services. Let me tell in this country, in particular our youth unem- those opposite, based on my many years of ployment levels, as Senator Mackay has noted experience in this area, that people who are in her motion before us. I acknowledge some not in receipt of unemployment benefits have of the points that Senator Synon has made to never been eligible for intensive government the chamber and today we welcome any assistance—training or otherwise. There were increase in job participation; we welcome any many times when I was managing an employ- increase in employment statistics in this ment training program in the western suburbs country. of Melbourne that I rang the DEET officers I think we all are very nervous and at times and wanted to provide assistance to someone rather cynical about figures put before us. I and was told the government—that is the ALP just hope that increased employment oppor- government—thought it was not an economi- tunities and positions continue. But I also get cally viable option. So let us put a nonsense concerned about those figures which reflect to this argument that we keep hearing. those people who are dropping out of looking Again we have the ALP wasting its time for full-time work. I also get very concerned and our valuable time criticising our record when we fail to analyse that a number of new and our policy on unemployment. We are the jobs created have been generally, and in 970 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 particular since the beginning of this coalition satisfaction with the probity and accountabili- government, in the part-time and casual ty of these particular processes, because the area—that we are seeing a reduction in the Democrats are not satisfied. In fact it is with number of full-time jobs being created. It is deepening concern that the Democrats have that increased casualisation of the work force watched, if you like, the unfurling and now which is of grave concern. unravelling of the government’s privatisation I do take issue, though, with a point of of the employment services market. We Senator Synon’s. She referred to the creative, believe that this service is fundamentally the new and the innovative ideas of this flawed, both in operation and in implementa- government when it came to addressing the tion—the losers being the unemployed and issue of employment. I could happily sit here the established and committed service provid- all day—not necessarily all day, but for some ers for whom this government continues to time—and listen to Senator Synon expand on display an appalling lack of regard. those new ideas. I did not get any new ideas, We believe it is the sad truth that the more however. I think one of the strongest criti- one looks into the operation of this scheme cisms that many people in the community and the more flaws one finds. At every level there certainly the Australian Democrats would is evidence of poor policy and poor decision make of this government is its absolute failure making, and every day more comes to light. to invest in new industries—sustainable high- Today I have to add to this ever-growing list. tech industries of the future; the kinds of I wish to highlight in particular the industries where long-term, meaningful and government’s contravention of its internation- sustainable jobs will come from, not just for al treaty obligations and its apparent lack of young Australians but for a range of people probity. The International Labour Organisa- in the community. tion convention was ratified by this country We know, too, that the link between job in 1949; yet it appears that the current placement and increased employment oppor- government either has forgotten about these tunities in the future is with education and provisions or hopes that the rest of Australia training opportunities. One of the biggest has forgotten. An examination of these provi- bugbears that the Democrats have with this sions show that the employment tendering government is the government’s failure to scheme certainly contravenes the spirit and recognise that link, or at least underestimating the letter of that convention. I draw the that link and the important role that education attention of the Senate to article 1 of the and training at any level plays in this process. convention which provides: Jobs of the future will be in these highly Each Member of the International Labour Organisa- skilled industries. That is why Australians, but tion for which this convention is in force shall in particular young Australians, need access maintain or ensure the provision of a free public to education and training opportunities. They employment service. do not need disincentives, be they psychologi- When we look at the proposed operation of cal or financial, put in their way. In relation what remains of this public service, Employ- to education and training opportunities, they ment National, we can see that it has been do not need barriers such as fees, high levels established on a commercial basis. It is to of unmet demand and, as we have seen today, compete with other service providers and, as changes to income support arrangements, in such, will be bound to maximise profits at the particular for students and young unemployed expense of the service it offers. people, that make it at times almost impos- I note the minister has been very keen to sible to enter into those institutions. assert that facilities will be available for those I will confine most of my remarks this who need them, yet the facts are that the afternoon to where Senator Synon left off, intensive FLEX 3 assistance will only be and that is in relation to the employment available to the long-term unemployed and tendering processes under this government. I other facilities will only be available to those am glad that Senator Synon expressed her on unemployment benefits. That leaves an Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 971 estimated 420,000 people, such as those in Again we see the government in breach of part-time and casual employment—a growing its obligations under this convention, because proportion of our work force as I have point- part 2 of article 1 provides: ed out—and the spouses of employed persons The essential duty of the employment services shall re-entering the job market without free access be to ensure, in cooperation where necessary with and assistance, in clear contravention of this other public and private bodies concerned, the best article. possible organisation of the employment market as an integral part of the national programme for the The minister is wrong in his view—and it achievement and maintenance of full employment is a view to which only he and his govern- and the development and use of productive re- ment appear to adhere—that the provision of sources. touch screen services at Employment Nation- The minister is certainly adept at making al, and Senator Synon referred to this, and grand assertions, but I would defy even him other service providers will equate with one- to continue to claim that the outcome of the to-one assistance. Furthermore, it is important tender processes actually fulfils this part of to remember that Employment National has the article. The most cursory glance will been set up on a commercial basis and of reveal serious anomalies and, unless action is course it is going to be expected to operate on taken to rectify this, the ramifications for this basis. What incentive will exist for it and those requiring the services will be all too other service providers to list vacancies on severe. their databases for universal access when they Examples abound of established, experi- will not receive any payment when they are enced organisations—particularly community filled? These organisations will only be paid organisations and those with community for the positions which they fill themselves, links—losing out to organisations with little and it is an accepted view within the industry or, in some cases, no capacity to deliver the that the degree to which the positions will be services for which they have been contracted. listed will be very limited indeed. Organisations such as the National Skillshare Furthermore, the minister has claimed Association have been decimated—an abso- repeatedly, in lieu of formal safeguards to lute tragedy—under this tendering process. protect difficult to place unemployed persons, Their years of expertise in service provision he will rely on ‘verbal assurances’ given by has been deemed of less worth than individu- providers. We heard the following comment als with new ideas and approaches. I take on from the minister on yesterday’s AM pro- board Senator Synon’s concerns about some gram: of the former Labor government’s projects— Senator Tierney—Too right! Drake have said that if they come to us we’d consider taking them for that job along with Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Do not get everyone else who was the best person for the job. ahead of yourself, Senator Tierney—in par- ticular the Working Nation programs. There This is clearly no assurance whatsoever. were flaws. However, what this government As these organisations will be operating on did was not only cut $1.8 billion over about a for-profit basis and will be paid only for the three years out of labour market cetera pro- people they place, what incentive exists for grams, but it did not even give any credence them to provide services for the disadvan- to the notion that well-targeted labour market taged or the long-term unemployed whom programs do assist and that there were organi- they may not consider to be the best person sations that had very good track records in the for the job? They are the hard people to provision of places and the placing of those place. There is nothing to stop these organisa- people who were unemployed, be it for short tions from culling the people who come to or longer periods of time. them and providing services only to those The Democrats have always acknowledged whom they believe will be attractive candi- that that process needed time to be not only dates for employers. properly established, but evaluated. Then the 972 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 idea of evaluation is to keep the good bits and why Employment National in particular was get rid of the bad bits; not to get rid of the awarded a disproportionate amount—42 per whole process altogether. We are fans of cent—of the most lucrative work available, targeted labour market programs and that is often at the expense of the smaller providers. why we were absolutely stunned and outraged The outcome of the tendering processes has when this government made such sweeping seen the creation of an anti-competitive cuts to labour market programs in the 1996 market in which Employment National, with budget, together with just about anything that its huge market share—which stretches to a involved education or training. monopoly in some places, such as Lismore, The minister is wrong when he claims that which I mentioned—is poised to clean up. It the previous system failed the unemployed. has been handed the employment market on Skillshare is a great example of a successful a plate. So we are seeking an assurance from program and successful placements in a very the minister that the government has not difficult sector. It managed to place more than handed Employment National the employment half the people registered with it. I believe in market on a plate so that it can be privatised its last year of operation it placed around at a future time. It is fattening up Employ- 60,000 people. Since 1989 the association has ment National so it can be sold off, an act placed more than one million unemployed which would be in direct contravention of the people. That is a staggering amount when we provision that I just described in article 2 of think of the number of people who have been the convention. unemployed in this country. Moving through the convention, article 3 is Yet this was not good enough for the yet another provision which the government Department of Employment, Education, has chosen to ignore. It states: Training and Youth Affairs or the minister, The system shall comprise of a network of local and 250 of their 300 providers did not win and, where appropriate, regional offices, sufficient contracts under the new scheme. When we in number to serve each geographical area of the look at how the new scheme is set to operate, country and conveniently located for employers and we see examples such as Lismore which has workers. one of the highest rates of youth unemploy- The $1.4 billion worth of cuts in funding to ment in the country, as Senator Tierney would this sector has resulted in a decimation of the know. Yet, instead of ensuring that services public provider. In May 1996 in my home are maintained in that area, they have been state of South Australia, the CES operated a cut. Innovative, successful programs—some network of 31 offices and had 700 staff. provided by ATSIC and designed to assist the Despite the fact that today’s employment indigenous population in the area—have also figures—Senator Synon was happy to talk been cut. about today’s employment figures—reveal Prior to the adoption of the new scheme, that the rate of participation in the labour there were 56 clients per case manager in the market in South Australia is the lowest for area. Now there is only one case management years, with almost 5,000 people having given provider, Employment National, and each up looking for work, as of 1 May Employ- case manager will have around 200 clients. ment National will have less than 100 staff in This is unworkable, unfair and, even more 17 locations. A number of these will be sadly, it is a situation replicated throughout merely office shopfront locations and oper- the country. ations. Of particular concern is the effect that Article 2 of the convention provides: this will have on rural and regional areas. The employment service shall consist of a national The commercialisation of the market has system of employment offices under the direction seen a parallel urbanisation of service provi- of a national authority. sion with providers choosing to establish The Australian Democrats would like to know themselves in the more lucrative urban loca- why organisations with proven expertise lost tions. The result of this has been that places out to those with little or no experience and such as Coober Pedy, Ceduna, Naracoorte in Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 973 the south-east, rural areas and some regional contempt for the people who are hurting the areas with high levels of unemployment, will most from its reforms. no longer have employment service providers. There have been a number of comments Given the contempt with which the govern- made here today about the difficulty of ment has approached this whole process and addressing the unemployment issue. Nobody the contempt that it has displayed in its fails to accept that that difficulty exists but I obligations towards the unemployed and the do find it very hard to take when someone service providers—the list goes on—it is like Senator Synon stands up and says that perhaps not surprising that an analysis of the her government has implemented new and tendering process has thrown up a few other innovative measures. Far from it. We have anomalies. seen a return to some of the oldest and most The Democrats have discovered something antiquated, outdated measures in the book. that we consider perhaps a serious breach of When a government legislates for a compul- due process. I am advised that Drake Interna- sory work for the dole program, it even tional, which, of the private tenderers, re- legislates the word ‘dole’. For the first time ceived the most lucrative contract, has strong so far as I know—not only in the history of links with the former leader of the Liberal this nation but perhaps internationally, as Party, Dr John Hewson. I am advised that senators may be able to advise—it legislates Drake International has as its managing the word ‘dole’. It enshrines that in the director a Robert W. Pollock, who was also legislation, with all its negative connotations. the top executive of ABN Amro Holdings, a That is not a new response. That is not a company listed as the global ultimate name of response to what is a new problem in many Drake International Inc. This company is also respects. the principal shareholder of ABN Australia Ltd, which lists Dr Hewson as its chairman. Unemployment may be old but the newness is that our work force has changed. We know What we are asking for, Senator Tierney, is that traditional entry level jobs, especially an explanation from the government as to the those occupied by young people, have disap- links between the receipt of this contract peared. Our work force has been fundamen- worth millions of dollars and the former tally restructured, and people have to accept leader of the government’s party. that. That is where labour market programs Senator O’Chee—You’ve been taking come in. That is where we accept that skills lessons from Senator Faulkner. and training and access to education at all The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— levels is mandatory. It is necessary to ensure Order! that people do have the skills with which they can compete in a work force and, increas- Senator STOTT DESPOJA—We actually ingly, a global work force. As for these new consider this quite a serious matter, quite a ideas, I cannot see any forthcoming from the serious anomaly. When this anomaly is added government. to the list, part of which I have already outlined, the need for this government to To make one final point, when I talk about justify its election process grows even more stereotypes surrounding the word ‘dole’, pressing. We will no longer be satisfied with Senator Synon in her contribution could not vague assertions provided by the minister leave it alone. She could not resist the chance because his verbal assurances have been to perpetuate some of the negative stereotypes shown to be empty. The claim by his depart- that we hear about young people. I swear that ment today that our concerns and those of the I get so sick and tired of the dole bludgeoning community at large are ‘irrelevant nonsense’ that goes on in this place by some decision just add to the growing body of evidence that makers and some members of parliament who this government, far from demonstrating any find it much easier to use young unemployed real commitment to addressing the unemploy- people as scapegoats for the fact that their ment problem, chooses instead to show its failed, miserable, outdated policies to solve 974 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 unemployment in this country are just not see every Australian who wants a job to be working. able to get one and to work. That is what we Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) know Australians want. There is no doubt at (4.36 p.m.)—There are many points that need all that any figures that show there is in- to be taken up in this very important debate creased employment should be accepted with brought into this place by my colleagues the celebration that that means, though—as I Senator Carr and Senator Mackay. The first will go on to do—those figures need to be point I want to take issue with is Senator very closely examined to see whether they tell Synon’s claim that the tender process for the the whole truth or just a sort of truth. new employment agencies is all above board First of all, let us be concerned that you, in and par for the course, that it has been fol- turfing out the old order for assisting with lowed completely according to procedure, and employment and replacing it with a new one, that it should be ticked off by an independent do not have the comfort and the assurance assessor. We have had questions in this place that the process you have gone through is about a Mr Khadar Roude, a person who has entirely successful or satisfactory. More than actually been approved—for a significant most in this place, Senator Tierney, you know number of dollars—to assist with the employ- that. I believe that is going to be a matter of ment placement of unemployed people. That major concern and that we will need to keep man has no office, no facilities, no staff, no a very close eye on precious taxpayers’ anything. dollars that may already be pouring down the Senator Mackay—No phone. gurgler. They will not be assisting people get Senator CROWLEY—Yes, no phone. jobs. Senator Tierney—Can’t you find anything Senator Tierney—You wasted $1.7 billion but this? You keep re-running this. The guy on Working Nation. is setting up a small business, you should welcome that. Senator CROWLEY—Senator Tierney, Senator CROWLEY—One would have to that is the next point that I wish to come to. say, on the evidence of just that one, you You know full well—and I can hear you would hope the department, let alone the saying it now—that you have to give these assessor, would be very concerned about what things time to work. could have possibly gone wrong. Just a Senator Tierney—Over two years we soupcon of doubt would have helped, Senator found out what happened with Working Tierney. Nation. Senator Tierney—How can you condemn him before he even starts work? Senator CROWLEY—The Working Nation program was in place and was begin- Senator CROWLEY—Because there are ning to bite. As any number of people would clear examples of that sort—and more than say, in the analysis of that program— just one—across the nation that makes this side of the house, the Labor Party, very Senator Tierney—Two-thirds back on the concerned about the process. Nobody would dole queue! be more appreciative than I if they got it right. You, in the corridors of power and in Senator CROWLEY—Yes, clearly there the rooms of your colleagues in the ministry, were some bits that were not as good as are concerned too; you know how bad this others and there were bits that were hugely looks. You know that some of you have gone, successful. You did, with a stroke of the pen, before the Labor Party has got there, to raise a $1.8 billion slice through the whole lot and concerns about the process—and properly you it has gone—the good along with the not so should raise those concerns. good. What everybody in this place is united Senator Tierney—There was a lot of not about, surprisingly, is that we would like to so good. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 975

Senator CROWLEY—It was never given education, ought be barracking for that be- time to make an effect. You should be very cause it was a brilliant success. Those women cautious about your own programs, Senator. who went out there to work to assist their Senator Tierney—Tell us about your new families— work opportunities. Senator Tierney—You didn’t have any- Senator CROWLEY—You should be the thing to do with it. They did it in spite of first down there arguing that any tender your government, not because of it. process that is ticked off and that allows a Senator CROWLEY—It is funny how the person with absolutely no infrastructure at all story changes post election, isn’t it, Senator? to be granted a very large amount—I believe Those women went to work, and they were $1 million—to assist unemployed people to able to do that because they were backed up get jobs is a joke; a sick expensive joke at the by a government committed to and insisting taxpayers’ expense. For any people who are on seeing they had the support—for example, looking for jobs we should hang a sign out child care. An article in the Herald Sun of that says ‘Don’t go there’. They will find that Tuesday 10 March, entitled ‘Women give up out themselves very quickly. on the hunt for work’, shows that women are Senator Tierney—How do you know that? giving up. They are one group of the discour- You are smearing people in this place. He aged jobseekers. They are one group that no hasn’t even started yet. longer have that high participation rate which made it so difficult for the figures to come Senator CROWLEY—I want to pick up down for the Labor Party when it was in on the very important points raised by my government. But it certainly meant that many colleague Senator Mackay, which were also people enjoyed the opportunity of working in picked up on by Senator Stott Despoja—that this country. As David Luff writes: is, if you are not on benefits you are not Almost 120,000 job-seekers, mostly women, going to be given the sort of assistance you stopped looking for work last year believing there need. Before I come to that—and I will come was no hope of finding a job. round to it again, I hope—I want to pick up But the Federal Government yesterday chose to on why I am concerned about these unem- ignore the figures, preferring to concentrate on a ployment figures. While I am very glad that rebound in job advertisements last month. they are down, I am concerned that they are About 3.7 million adults were not working masking a large number of people who are compared with the 9.2 million people in the labour now so discouraged they are no longer being force... counted. About 1.2 million said they were not actively looking for work or not available for it even though Senator Tierney—Tell us about your more than half wanted work. record over 13 years. What was your average The number of discouraged job-seekers—people over 13 years? Eight and a half per cent over not doing anything to find work and people not 13 years. receiving unemployment benefits—stood at The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— 118,400, with women accounting for two-thirds. Order! Senator Tierney! This is one of the things that is not obvious Senator CROWLEY—You should listen in those figures but is a critical part of the to this, Senator Tierney, because for all the story that needs to be told. Whatever else we years we were in government more and more do, we ought be telling the truth here; we women in this country exercised their options ought be telling the whole story, the complete to go out to work to earn money to assist story. We should be aware of how many their families, to assist their children into people are discouraged and not being counted education because they saw the value of it. any more. Women are very high in that They picked up on our government’s program category. to move retention rates from 37 per cent to You have had a policy since you came into over 80 per cent in our years in government. office of encouraging women out of the work You, Senator Tierney, with your interest in force because you know that is one way in 976 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 which you can drop the figure for unemploy- worked all their lives for. They are not count- ment, and it is beginning to happen. It is ed anymore. They are off the list. That is a happening, in particular, because of another very interesting little way in which you score mean-spirited decision by your leader to take how many people are unemployed. away the operational subsidy for community- That goes for the 55s who are now retired based child-care centres and to peg the assist- so as to save the nest egg that so many of ance as the fees rose. In most centres those them have been working 20 or 30 years for— fees have gone up about $20 per week per taxpayers of this country putting their penny- child and many families cannot afford it any worth in and saving for their retirement now more. Women who use child care are now being forced to retire at 55 if they want to dropping out of the work force. Those women have full access to it. You are a mean lot over are not able to be counted here. They have there, a mean, nasty lot. given up; they are discouraged. What is interesting is, this is the govern- There is another group of people associated ment that said it would be the government to with child care whom you do not count. I make people’s lives comfortable and relaxed. heard yesterday—though I always qualify Any time you go into the community that is these figures as to whether they are exactly not what they tell you. I heard one of my the latest and most accurate—that 48 com- Liberal colleagues saying the other day that munity-based child-care centres around this you should not worry too much about unem- country have now closed under your govern- ployment in Canberra and about all those ment. If you allow an average of 10 women public servants who have lost their jobs working in each child-care centre, that is 480 because over a year and a half or so almost women who are on the unemployment list all of them will have got some other employ- because of your policies to see the closure of ment—as though that has fixed that. community-based child-care centres. It is not only the families who use child care, but it is Have they ever stopped to speak to some- also the workers who provide the child care. body who has lost their job? Do they under- They are not counted in your list. They are stand what lack of confidence, what kind of discouraged. They are not out there either. anxiety and what kind of pressure that builds on their families and that, when these people There is another very important group that finally do get another job, they are actually is not being counted. These are the people not the same kind of assured and capable who are 55. We have got a lulu of a chal- people they were before they lost their jobs? lenge for them: if they want to be on unem- It is as if there is a transition with no meas- ployment benefits, they have to run down any urement of the gap, no measurement of the savings, in particular superannuation. I won- pain and suffering, no measure of the loss of der why, if you became unemployed at 55, income and no measure of the anxiety—and you would want to say, ‘Right, that’s it; I’m that is the word I keep hearing in the com- out of work for the rest of my life. Nobody munity. ‘We’re not sure where we will be, will take me on. I might as well give up Senator.’ ‘We’re not sure we will still have a now.’ job.’ ‘We’re not sure that we will be able to Most people at that age expect and hope keep on paying for the mortgage or the that they will be able to come back into the borrowings.’ You know that. work force and would prefer, as they could in Senator Natasha Stott Despoja also talked the past, to go on to unemployment benefits about the increasing and dramatic casualis- and seek further employment. These days, if ation of jobs and the move to contracts—12- they do that they are going to be eligible for month contracts in particular for many people. unemployment benefits only if they run down Senator Tierney and I are in the process of their superannuation and retirement benefits, concluding an inquiry into the status of so many of them shrug their shoulders and teachers in this country. One of the things that become retired so they can actually have was raised with us time and time again was access to and maintain the nest egg they have the difficulty of being a first year graduate Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 977 teacher, if you are lucky to score a 12-month How on earth are they going to manage contract to become a teacher. You know and their lives on that? The difficulty of those I know—and they certainly told us this in rotating hours are tough enough; the casualis- bucketloads of evidence before the commit- ation and the lack of security about even tee—that a 12-month contract is no way to being able to have to rearrange your life in a move into your new profession with some couple of months is also pressurising those kind of optimism that this year you will be people. The stress and anxiety builds up and really learning as you go, but that will be all more and more those women, in particular, right because the year after and the year after are retreating from the work force. They are that you will be able to build on and improve discouraged; they are not counted. those skills. I would urge a caution about wild celebra- tion of today’s figures. We know that what No, what they say is, ‘We are very con- they reflect is a very significant drop in the cerned about whether we will even have a job participation rate of women. You know it, and as a teacher in 12 months time.’ Worse than what is more you cannot actually boast it that, many of the people who would be a because it would make clear your unspoken mentor for those young teachers have been agenda to remove women from the work saying, ‘It is hard to get too enthusiastic for force. I have been saying this for two years. a young teacher who may not be there next I was laughed at when I first said it; slowly year and who may not even be a teacher at all the picture becomes patently clear. There is next year.’ It is a double if not a triple wham- no denying it. They are out of the work force, my. That is the impact of these short-term they are discouraged from looking for work contracts, as just one example from the and now they are not even being counted. comprehensive evidence we have taken over You cannot acknowledge it because, first, as the last few months of the negative impact of I say, it would indicate your mean, miserable, that. limited, mean spirited agenda and, secondly, Many of those people may be counted as you would have to acknowledge the success employed this year but they do not have any we had in our term in a large part of our confidence that they will be employed for the government— longer term. They are the sorts of people who Government senators interjecting— are frightened to get into major investment. Senator CROWLEY—Oh, laugh. We had The figures show there has been a very a huge participation rate. significant drop in confidence not only in the business community but among the purchasers Senator Tierney—And a huge unemploy- of this world. We saw those figures just the ment rate—8½ per cent average over 13 other day—I notice Senator Synon was not years. quoting those at us today—a massive drop in Senator CROWLEY—No, for a brief time, business confidence and consumer confidence, Senator. Nobody more than this Labor and I have just stated one of the reasons. government hurt about that. There was no boasting about it, Senator. There was a great Even the people in the work force do not regret. have the confidence they will be there with Senator Ian Macdonald—Are you going any long-term prospects; they are anxious to support Mrs Scott in Oxley? about the on-going security or income that they can expect. It is more so if they are in Senator Mackay interjecting— casual work. We saw this, too, all through the Senator CROWLEY—Senator Mackay evidence brought before child care inquiries; reminds me of one of your colleagues from not only from the child care point of view but Queensland, Senator Ian Macdonald, who from the the viewpoint of families and par- reckons—of course, I would never use such ticularly women who are working casually language—that the best place for women is Monday, Tuesday this week and Thursday, ‘barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen’. You Friday next week. remember him, don’t you? And you remem- 978 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 ber Senator Newman who said last year in retreating from the work force. They are no answer to a question from Senator Ray, I longer counted. Be careful of your figures. think it was, that if women behaved like the Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) Defence Department did in being wasteful it (4.56 p.m.)—I would like to start by con- would be right for her husband to push her gratulating Senator Mackay for raising a out of the home. We know the Lyons serious issue—unemployment. We have spent Forum’s approach to women. We know what several days in this parliament listening to some of your colleagues have said on the issues that do not concern this nation. We record. We know the problem you have about have spent several days muckraking because women who are not at home looking after of this policy vacuum in the ALP—these children. You have never really celebrated it, policy airheads on the other side who have and here it is: women are out of the work absolutely nothing to say on the issues that force. Women are not being counted because concern this nation, and the most important is they are discouraged. You have cut back unemployment. We have been on this debate child-care centres. The work force is reduced now for 1½ hours. Has anyone in this cham- by those 480 to 500 women who do not have ber or anywhere else heard in that debate an their jobs any more. There are all those original idea from the other side, from Sena- thousands of families who can no longer go tor Mackay or Senator Crowley or any of the to work or participate because they do not other apologists for their failure for 13 years have access to the wide distribution of quality to do anything about this problem? child-care services that were instituted under our government. Their failure is shown up by the fact that, on average, unemployment over 13 years was Those are the major points that I wished to 8½ per cent. That is their brilliant record. And raise in my contribution to this debate. The that is only the official rate; it does not points raised by Senator Synon have been include the underemployed—the part-time more than dealt with; particularly her point people who wanted a full-time job and could about the tender process. I do believe that you not get it. It did not include the ones who had should be very cautious about the success of given up altogether. Senator Crowley was that. You can be assured that we will be talking about the participation rate. Of course watching very closely. Senator Synon said there were a lot of people who were not that all the unemployed people would have participating who would have liked to. To put touch screen services. That will be the thrill them all in, the evidence from the long-term of their lives. What people want when they unemployment inquiry that I chaired three are looking for a job is somebody to talk to. years ago was that you have to roughly It is nice to know, as a first stop, where you double your rate. So your record over 13 might be able to find a job but they are not years was about 17 per cent unemployment in going to find full satisfaction and assistance reality in this nation. from touch screen services. What is this? An up market way of reading the newspaper? If Don’t let us start on youth unemployment. the list of job vacancies is improved, then that If you go to your figure it becomes horren- is a good thing. dous. You left government with 29 per cent youth unemployment. I remember reading in Your proposals for helping people get jobs a book in 1985 about the terrible state of are really scandalous, particularly the proposal youth unemployment in this country—25 per that if you are not on an unemployment cent in 1985. You were in government for 11 benefit you are not going to be eligible for years beyond that and what happened to it? It that kind of assistance. Your claims have been went from 25 per cent up to 29 per cent. refuted very comprehensively by Senator What a great record. And Senator Mackay Mackay. They have been refuted again by comes in here today and raises the issue of Senator Natasha Stott Despoja. Unemploy- unemployment—after 13 years of miserable ment remains a major concern. We are seeing failure. What did we hear from the Labor many people discouraged, defeated and Party? Did we hear a grand plan for solving Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 979 this problem? I do not think anyone in this success. There has been a 2½ per cent drop chamber on this side did. We were all strain- in interest rates. ing and listening for solutions from the ALP to unemployment in this country. Senator Mackay—What about growth— what’s the growth rate? What are your options? Are you going to continue with our program? From what you Senator TIERNEY—You mentioned are saying today, probably not. Are you going growth. Growth is the highest of all OECD to go back to the failed Working Nation countries at 3½ per cent. What was your program, where you wasted $1.7 billion, average over 13 years? Two per cent was where your placement rate was one-third? your average, and we have nearly doubled You took the others, the two-thirds left, all that since we have got into government. You those hundreds of thousands of people, trained had this great plan that you were going to get them and there was no job; trained them, no unemployment down to five per cent. What job. Are you going to do that? Is that your a joke. With the policies that you had brought option? There is a third option, isn’t there? in, you were never going to get anywhere There is a grand new vision of the ALP for near that, particularly when you had the unemployment in this country. Well, where is budget deficits that you were running. it? We have had in this chamber all your shadow ministers and your leader here going What this government has done has saved on for days on issues that are irrelevant to the Australia from the disaster you were leading people of Australia. I looked up into the it towards. Just imagine with the Asian gallery today and saw all those people look- economic meltdown if we had continued over ing down as you were just muckraking, the past two years with the failure of your destroying people’s reputations, and they must government. Where would Kim Beazley’s go away thinking, ‘What on earth is happen- $10.5 billion be now under your policies? ing to this country if these people have Would it be $12 billion last year and $14 anything to do with the running of the coun- billion this year? Do you think that is unreal- try?’ You are not focusing on the serious istic? I remember the 1992 deficit being over issue. $19 billion. You are capable of these big numbers, and under your government it would Congratulations, Senator Mackay, here you have continued. As we move into this Asian have actually returned to the serious issue, but meltdown, what it is showing is the strength you are a bit on the back foot with it, given of the Australian economy under the policies 13 years of failure. You are also on the back of this government. foot because of the record of this government over the last two years. When we came into Senator Mackay—What’s the foreign debt? power, unemployment in this country was 8.7 You don’t mention that, do you? per cent. It is now, on today’s figure, 8.1 per cent. That is a steady drop over that time. Senator TIERNEY—You can bark away You obviously put up this motion this morn- over there, Senator, but it will not change the ing on the basis that the unemployment record reality. Today’s figures prove that those very was going to be bad. Well, didn’t you get sound policies in what it has done with the sprung. budget and what it has done with interest Senator Mackay—No. rates have set the business climate to actually reduce unemployment. So there is your secret. Senator TIERNEY—Did you know before It is not going back to your failed Working everybody else? You really got caught be- Nation policies; the secret is to set the poli- cause it showed the success of the govern- cies in such a way that you actually get ment policies continuing and the continuing unemployment coming down. Does it work? decline in unemployment in this country. Look at what has happened over the last two Senator Synon has already indicated the years: 8.7 per cent down to 8.1 per cent success of the Howard government program. sounds like a success to me. The policies of Let me take you quickly through some of that this government are working. 980 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Let us look back at some of the failure of brave man for doing that, I thought. It was your record. I do not think we can emphasise publicised and it was televised nationally. these points too strongly. We need to keep Kim Beazley was up there saying, ‘We have telling the Australian public again and again got these training programs for you to get about the way you failed over 13 years. The work.’ The audience replied with one voice, one who really leapt to your defence today, ‘But there are no jobs.’ What they said in greatly to my amazement, was Senator Stott Wollongong at that time was that they had the Despoja, who started quoting international best trained dole queues in the world. They conventions; incorrectly, as it turns out. She get into a training program and try to find a was claiming that under the 1949 ILO con- job—no job. Another training program, try to vention you had to provide public providers find a job—no job. Then another training for the unemployed. She was actually mixing program. The best trained dole queues in the up ‘publicly provided’ and ‘public provided’. world. It does not necessarily have to be run by the That was what the fault of Working Nation government but it has to be public and open. was; it was assuming that if you trained She was confusing those terms and trying to people there would be jobs around. The whole mislead the Senate into thinking that we are thing failed. What we have instituted with the breaking some ILO convention. We are not. economic policies that I mentioned before is She also went on to defend the CES. What an approach that actually creates real long- a brave senator, defending the record of the term jobs. CES. What was the success rate of the CES, The disillusionment with the former Work- the centrepin of the previous government’s ing Nation program was brought home very unemployment policies? Didn’t they do well. starkly to our committee that was inquiring It was 20 per cent. There are the jobs up on into long-term unemployment. I quote from the board: go and have a look and go out and one of the unemployed, who said: find one. It was just not a successful ap- It is more comfortable to remain lying in the gutter proach. Moving into case management was a than to be picked up and dropped back in it again. good move. We have always supported that. Moving on to what we are doing now is even That is what he said. That is what happened more successful. I think Senator Stott Despoja to him. They picked him up and gave him should perhaps come back sometime and some training, but there was no job so he was acknowledge that. back where he was before. He found that a shattering and disheartening experience. As I said I was going to remind the Senate of we went around the nation we found the the record under the last Labor government. phase of this program was just a matter of If we go back and look at what happened to churning people in the dole queue. What we the long-term unemployed, we see that the really should look at are the outcomes of this Labor government really tried to put a lot of program. effort in and put a lot of money in. That is What was the employment growth in full what it was all about, putting in money and employment under Working Nation and under being showy. Calling something Working the Labor government in its last years? Be- Nation: what a joke, calling it Working tween 1991 and 1995 there were 6,000 net Nation. What irony. What an insult to the new full-time jobs. What happened in the unemployed, making out that, if you institute recession was a collapse in full-time jobs. We such a program, people are actually going to came out of the recession and full-time jobs be working. We know that after the program, started to increase again, but if you look over with $1.7 billion down the drain, two-thirds those four years, the great achievement of the of them were not working at all. Keating government was the creation of 6,000 As a matter of fact, Wollongong, under new jobs—net. What a disgraceful record. Working Nation at its height, had a very With $1.7 billion that was the outcome. That famous visitor, Kim Beazley. He went and is why, in March 1996, two years ago, you spoke to the youth of Wollongong—a very were tossed out in such a devastating way. It Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 981 was because of the failure of a whole range reason, this government is expanding this of programs but, in particular, programs like program. this one. The people opposite today have spent a lot When we look at the fine grain of the of time doing some sort of analysis of the programs under Working Nation we see that new programs we have adopted. They have the story gets worse. Senator Mackay did say gone on from work for the dole to Job Net- that some of the programs worked particularly work, spending a lot of time spreading gloom well and I am sure some of them did. But and doom, saying that terrible things are there were appalling examples of failure and happening under Job Network. It is funny that waste. Probably one of the worst was ‘new they keep bringing up this example in western work opportunities’—$170,000, on average, Sydney. per successful placement. Money was pumped into this right until the federal election, Senator O’Brien—We don’t think it’s particularly up in my area. The member for funny. Paterson, Bob Baldwin, and I went out to a Senator TIERNEY—In this chamber and graduation ceremony for one of these groups. also up in the estimates I think I have heard They had been working for six months in this this example brought up five times. It is new work opportunities program. Bob funny that they keep bringing up this one Baldwin asked them at the end, ‘Hands up example. Could it be because you cannot find those who have found a job after this any other examples? That is what I expect. scheme.’ Out of the 25 people in the program, one hand went up. That was a terrible failure. Let us go back and analyse this example. It was very disillusioning for the people Maybe this poor fellow out there, whose involved and it was a terrible waste of name you have absolutely blackened, will fail government money. now after what you have done to him on the public record. This fellow has not even What we have done is move away from that started. He cannot start until 1 May, yet you sort of program. California based research are condemning him before he starts. He has looked at how those Working Nation type had experience in the area and he is setting programs were operating in one county and up a new business. What a terrible thing to compared them to another county where work do—set up a new business! He is setting up for the dole type programs were operating. a new business to give the unemployed in What they found in that research was that the western Sydney the chance for a job. You work for the dole type program was working should give him a go. You should give this better because you were putting people program a go, because your program totally straight into work. Instead of training where failed. This one, which has incentives in it for there are no jobs you put them into work, people to work and incentives to employ they build up the confidence and they get new people, is one that I feel, having looked at skills. When they compared the two groups at this area very thoroughly for seven years, has the end of this time they found that the a great chance of success. You should give it people who were in the work for the dole that chance and stop trying to condemn it type programs were more likely to go on to before it even starts. training or more likely to find work. Senator HOGG (Queensland) (5.13 We have had a very successful initial start p.m.)—I rise regularly when this issue of to this pilot. The party opposite opposed it unemployment comes up because it is an fiercely, set up an inquiry and came down issue dear to my heart. It is an issue that against it, and then suddenly did a backflip should be on the table, but when Senator when they discovered that the vast majority Tierney says that the government policies are of the public out there supported it, seeing it working I do not think Senator Tierney has as something very necessary and something looked at the figures or understands what is that would give young people hope. For that actually going on. 982 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

While Senator Tierney quoted the 8.7 down ployed for the under 52-week period. Whilst to 8.1, he did mention, as did others, the issue I am glad for anyone who gets a job, and I of the long-term unemployed people in this would applaud anyone who can find employ- nation. Let us now look at the record and let ment, the real problem that is confronting this us look at it through the ABS statistics of nation is not being addressed. January 1998 on the labour force, from which we can get some comparative idea of what is If one then turns to page 34 in the same really happening—not something that is document, one finds, again, an age break-up fudged or fictional but something that is of the unemployed persons. It is table 27, actual. If you look at long-term unemploy- ‘Unemployed persons: duration of unemploy- ment—and that is where the greatest problem ment by age, marital status and full-time/part- is in this nation—the problem is getting those time status, January 1998.’ If one looks people who have been out of work for a long there—and there is no year to year compari- period of time back into the paid work force, son—one finds that there were 157,000 men because it is getting them back into the paid who were unemployed for 12 months and work force that will give them dignity. over throughout this nation. However, when you go to the figures for two years and over, If one looks at the table headed ‘Long-term you find that there are 84,900. When you put unemployment’, which is table 26 at page 33 it in raw statistics such as that, we are talking of the ABS labour force survey, January about a major problem. 1998, one sees what is happening in reality to the long-term unemployed people. It is worth- When one looks at the figures for the while to compare what has happened from females, one will find that the figure for those December 1996 to December 1997. If one who were unemployed for 52 weeks and over looks at the seasonally adjusted figures, one is 81,200, and the figure for those unem- will see that there has been a change in that ployed for 104 weeks and over is 39,200. So period of time for people who were unem- we are seeing substantial numbers of people ployed for between 52 weeks and 104 who, in reality, are out there unemployed, and weeks—that is, between one and two years— the policies of this government have not, in from 99,400 to 125,600. So what we see is a any way, placed any dent in those statistics. substantial increase in the number of people If one looks at the collective statistics there, who were long-term unemployed between one one finds that we have a figure for people and two years. who were unemployed for 52 weeks and over totalling 238,300 and for 104 weeks and over, If what Senator Tierney and other speakers 124,100. Those figures cannot be denied, and from the government said was correct, then the government has to do something about it. we would be seeing their policies reducing that level, but there is now a burgeoning That was its promise to the Australian increase. If one looks at the long-term unem- people—to do something about the evil called ployment figures over 104 weeks—that is, unemployment. These are the people who two years or more—one will see that there is have been struggling the longest and the a slight reduction from 129,200 to 127,700. hardest and all we see are increasing num- But the reason for the slight reduction is that bers—not for the time of the previous Labor many women who were in that area have left government but increasing numbers that have the job marketplace. That comes out quite come about during the current term of this clearly in the ABS statistics—that the people government. We are not talking about some- who have left the marketplace are women. Of thing that is an invention on my part; we are course, there is an improvement in that area, talking about something that is in black and but it is worse for men. You find therefore white, and that shows the problem we have in that the government’s policies of trying to this nation. I only wish that this problem address long-term unemployment are not would be addressed by this government and working at all; they are at the margins. They not treated in the flippant way that I believe are affecting those people who are unem- it is on many occasions. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 983

The second thing that I wish to address this The company had a track record in this area. evening is the issue of the employment So much so that the local federal member, the services program. There are some real prob- member for Griffith, Graeme McDougall, was lems with what has happened in the tendering supportive of it—understandably and rightful- process for the employment services program. ly so. He wrote to the principal of the com- Senator Tierney expressed dismay that he has pany on 21 January this year in respect of the heard only one story, so I think it is only fair tendering process that was going on at that that we broaden the number of stories sur- stage because it was emerging that the process rounding this issue of the granting of the was not necessarily kosher. He said, ‘The tenders for the employment services program. minister is aware of the problems associated with the tendering process.’ So the federal I am going to look at three areas. I am member for Griffith has admitted that the going to look at the area of small business— government, through the minister, was aware and, of course, the government claims to be of problems associated with the tendering the champion of small business—at communi- process. At the end of the letter he said: ty organisations where they have missed out, and also at the feelings of some of the church We share a joint goal, which is to place job seekers into positions which are rewarding to both the organisations which were equally involved in employer and the employee. this area and have missed out. There is no doubt that there is a great deal of It is interesting that the first case arises sincerity in supporting this small business from a person whose company was unsuccess- operator within the seat of Griffith. ful in the tender process. I am talking about Let us look at the employment service a company called About Service, which is a record of About Service and the jobs notified small business. It had nine years experience over the last four weeks at About Service at being a private provider and employed 11- their office at Browns Plains. Let us look at plus employees. I am told that it had a place- jobs filled over the last four weeks as opposed ment record in the order of 65 per cent, when to jobs notified: jobs filled, 20; jobs notified, its direct competitors had a placement record 30. Their track record is very good indeed. of 40 per cent. By any test, one would think For the About Service Coorparoo office: jobs that this was a reasonable provider, an experi- notified over the last four weeks, 11; jobs enced provider, run by a small business filled over the last four weeks, eight. Their operator in the area of the employment ser- placement record was impeccable. It was up vices market. with any of the other private service providers This company had high hopes in the tender and community service providers in that area. process. It had experience, credibility and And what happened? What happened was background in the area. If one had looked at this company failed to get anything out of the an article in the January 1998 publication of government tender process. Let me assure Southern Star, a local press based in Bris- you: the principal of the company was defi- bane, one would have seen that there was a nitely not a supporter of our side of politics. little bit of hope from this company about the We are looking at a company of which 11 of future. The article said: its employees were affected—not one or two. People seeking work now have a choice of apply- It was a small business that had been built up ing for jobs through a CES or private job broker- and operated over a number of years. age. I will tell you what the principals of the Remember that this is pre the tender. The company had to say on 23 January in respect article went on to say: of the process. By this stage, there was a veil of secrecy; there was a cone of silence. Not About Service senior case manager Christine even the Chief, 99 or 86 could find out what Polzin said the number of unemployed that the centre dealt with had trebled since the changes had was going on. In the letter to me, they wrote: been implemented with about 400 jobseekers now Our research and our own investigations and on its books. enquiries have revealed that other companies have 984 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 been offered contracts in areas where we are They could accept a fair and level playing currently providing employment services. These field, but they did not feel they were in that companies have not been operating in our geo- situation. The letter continues: graphical location before, yet we, as an existing, established, long-term and effective provider of We believe that what is happening currently, needs these services, have heard nothing. serious investigation and must be rectified immedi- ately to remove the unnecessary uncertainty that We had a process at this stage where those exists. who had the knowledge, the understanding and the ability were seemingly going to be That is, because they did not know whether denied the right to access the market that they or not they were going to be successful. The had previously well serviced. They went on letter continues: to say: Our company will be laying off 4 of its Adminis- tration staff on Tuesday 27th January, again In all of our dealings relating to Government through no fault of their own, or that of our tenders over a 9 year period, we have never Company but we do need to take some pro-active experienced such a situation before. measures, in anticipation, before it is too late. This was a small business trying to play their Because of our excellent past track record with part out there and they were getting this employment outcomes, we would find it extremely treatment. It further said: difficult, if not unbelievable, to accept that we were not successful in any way. It appears that the larger organisations, and those perhaps with some political affiliations, seem to So there is not just one out there; there are have been notified of their success first and if they more. decline to accept the offers submitted to them, then We go then to a later fax that I received and only then, will other tenderers be advised and offered the leftovers. from that very same company—and by this time they had some idea of the tender process This was a company trying to plan their outcome. The fax states: future. It gets better—or worse, depending on I could not work out, now that successful tenderers which way you look at things. It said: have been announced, why, with the exception of We are certainly aware that there were no guaran- Employment National, 95% of existing providers tees of gaining acceptance of our tender, but were not granted their current geographical sites. naturally we are bewildered and confused simply The fax continues: due to the total lack of any formal advice regarding our tender outcome. Existing small providers, like ourselves, who only contracted for their original sites and no others, are It went on to tell of the sort of uncertainty out altogether and have received no sites whatso- that has been created by the government in ever— this process. It said: It goes on: . . . we still have 3 months left of existing contracts In effect, what we now have is a brand new start to fulfil and we can do nothing about this potential in the employment market at the expense of the loss of our experienced staff. unemployed and the 1000 existing providers. This The fear for these people was that they would new initiative will not be totally effective for some lose their staff as a result of not knowing 4 to 6 months and statistics on performance will not give a clear indication of its success or other- whether they were successful or unsuccessful wise for perhaps 12 months by which time there is in the tender process. Everything at that stage only 9 months of the tender period to go until it all had led them to believe that they were unsuc- goes to tender again. It defies logic! If the Govern- cessful, and ultimately they were proved to be ment wanted radical change to assist the long term correct. They had existing contracts which unemployed better, why should you opt for some- went to May that they would not be able to thing like this which is so risky and unproven! fulfil. It is an example of small business being That is from a provider—a provider who had attacked by this government. The letter been in the industry and who had suffered the continued: decimation of losing their business right from If we have been totally unsuccessful and were under their feet. The fax continues: advised on a fair and level playing field, this we Every current training provider expected that could accept. Employment National would get approximately Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 985

40% of the Flex 3 tender, but of the 700 companies explain how you were misrepresented, not to and community organisations that were excluded debate it. Have you finished? they certainly did not expect that only 200 organi- sations would get the rest. Let alone that most of Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I will not these 200 organisations would have no previous introduce further material, interrupt or debate, track record at all— as per the standing order. Thank you. None whatsoever. So the disappointment is Senator CRANE (Western Australia) (5.35 real, and it is out there. p.m.)—I too join this debate on the motion Just briefly, I will mention the skillshare now before us, which relates to industrial down at Wynnum. The skillshare at Wynnum relations and employment policies. I think it was a community based organisation. It had is rather ironic that just over three to four done a marvellous job in that area of helping years ago we were on the other side of the the unemployed, as can be seen by the statist- chamber leading a similar charge, if you like, ics alone—and I have them here: for 1989, trying to prove that there were better ways to 261; 1990, 334; 1991, 369; up to 1996-97, deal with unemployment. But the difference 310. The statistics show that this organisation between then and now is that, under the was active out there in the marketplace, coalition government, there have been very helping. Of course, what we will see there significant improvements to the rates of now, because of the demise, will be 11 jobs unemployment. For a while, I just want to gone. Then you have the Catholic social deal with that trend. So let us look at the response: 20 jobs gone. (Time expired) figures. I do think this debate requires a little bit of Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- balance, rather than the political point scoring tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian that continually goes on in this place. Unem- Democrats) (5.34 p.m.)—Madam Acting ployment is a serious problem. It is something Deputy President, I wish to make a personal that most, if not all, Australians have been explanation. I claim, under standing order seriously touched by through their family or 191, explanation of speeches, to have been friends—but certainly most of us, from time misunderstood in this debate. May I make a to time, have been touched through our brief statement? families. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT We find that there has been a certain theme (Senator Patterson)—Yes, the honourable in unemployment going right back to the senator may proceed. 1980s coming into 1981, before the previous Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Thank you. Labor government got into power—it got Senator Tierney in his comments has particularly bad in 1983 when they came into misunderstood my position and, as a conse- power—and then we had those horrific years quence, his attack on it was unfounded. The 1992-93-94, when it was consistently stuck at Democrats do appreciate the distinction over 10 per cent and went to 11 per cent. between a public provider and the public I believe that the difference between our provision of services. It is disingenuous, approach and that of the Labor Party really therefore, for Senator Tierney to claim that and truly is one of philosophy. We believe there will be an increase in services provided that the best way to deal with unemployment under the new system simply because there is to make sure that we have a strong econ- will be a greater range of organisations omy, successful businesses and stimulus for providing them. Furthermore, I did not, at any small business; and in time—and I think the stage, indulge or actively defend the CES, as facts are starting to prove this—job availabili- he claimed. The Democrats, however, do ty will go up. support the provision of high quality, free and universal employment. I particularly want to look at this aspect— because I believe it is important. We can see The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— that from 1994 to 1995, before we came to Senator Stott Despoja, you are only able to power, unemployment dropped from 10.5 per 986 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 cent to 8.9 per cent. We can all quote figures That came from your leader. Mr Beazley also to suit ourselves; we can take a month, we said: can take two months. That is not my intent. That is why that was proposed. ‘Go back to the The point I want to make here is that the kitchen Moylan’ is your nickname— drop in unemployment at that time was almost Senator Neal—Madam Acting Deputy entirely due to what occurred in Western President, I raise a point of order. This debate Australia after the Court government came in. is not an opportunity for members of the Looking at the figures during that time, and chamber to make reflections on those in the anyone can analyse them very carefully, we other House. I think the senator on his feet went from having the highest level of unem- should restrict himself to the debate at hand. ployment when Carmen Lawrence was the Clearly he is in breach of the standing order last of a series of Labor premiers—it was at that prevents senators making reflections. well over 11 per cent; I think it got up to 12 per cent at one stage—but, by the end of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT 1992 and going into 1993, Western (Senator Patterson)—There is no point of Australia’s unemployment rate had dropped order. to the lowest in the country. That was almost Senator CRANE—The point that I was the total take-up of the jobs that were created making in this very important debate is that during that time for all Australia. That was it is pretty damn dangerous to throw stones in stimulated almost entirely by the opening of glasshouses because they will bounce back at some great mining projects in Western Aus- you. tralia and getting some of the red tape out of Returning to the issue of reducing unem- business’s way and allowing business to ployment, regardless of what is said we know expand and employ people. That is what our that since we came to power there has been philosophy is. a gradual trend downwards in unemploy- I want to work through some of these ment—and there has been further good news issues. I have been on inquiries and wrestled today. It is not going down as fast as I or with these problems, as Senator Tierney anyone on this or the other side of the cham- mentioned. I wish to comment particularly on ber would like, but it has been consistent and a couple of contributions made here today: sustained. That is important. I believe that it firstly, that by Senator Rosemary Crowley, is going to remain consistent and sustained. who referred to the very unfortunate com- Senator Neal—You have economic growth ment, she claimed by a Liberal, about there of below four per cent. It will not go down. being only one place for women—barefoot, pregnant and back in the home, or words to Senator CRANE—You can rabbit on all that effect. you want but you have had your go. You are a policy-free zone over there. Senator Crowley has not thought very hard about that. She obviously is not aware of The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— what happened on 11 March in the other Senator Crane, direct your comments through place. Apparently Janice Crosio, the member the chair. You will get into less trouble if you for Prospect, interjected on Minister Moylan, do. saying, ‘Go back to the kitchen.’ It went a Senator CRANE—Madam Acting Deputy little further than that. Minister Moylan came President, I will take your guidance. I must back and spoke on indulgence—and I do not inform you that we have a policy-free zone understand all the detail of the standing orders over there. Those opposite come in here and of the other place and how they operate. Mr rabbit on and carry on, but they never tell us Beazley, the Leader of the Opposition, what they are going to do. Are they going to Australia’s alternative Prime Minister, got go back to Working Nation? That is what I himself involved. He said: want to know. A week or two ago former The minister is known on our side of the House as Prime Minister Bob Hawke apologised to the ‘Go back to the kitchen Moylan’. Australian people for the recession that we Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 987 did not have to have. There are all sorts of sound economic position to continue to, albeit things we can talk about. slowly, make inroads into unemployment. Senator Neal—So what is your objective One of the other initiatives which is very in terms of employment levels? What is your important and which will protect Australian target? jobs and create them—this needs mentioning, The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— because it did not get much coverage at the Senator Neal, you are not helping by interject- time—is our new anti-dumping measures. ing. Those on the other side and in the other place Senator CRANE—The people over there had some 13 years to deal with anti-dumping. presided over the most sustained, long-term I have a document which I will read so that period of unemployment in this country. We I get the facts absolutely right. It states: have set about endeavouring to do something Under the new arrangements interim duties can be about it through sound economic policy and imposed after 60 days. The time taken to reach a management. Had the previous government final finding will be reduced to 150 days and the not run up that enormous $10.3 billion deficit, Anti-Dumping Authority, ADA, will be abolished. we could have made even more remarkable inroads into unemployment than we have. It That means it will be put under one roof. is my very strong view that, with sound That is absolutely crucial in terms of protect- policy and development of initiatives as the ing Australian industry, both in dumping and Australian accounts come back into balance, in countervailing situations, from subsidised unemployment will fall even more. imports coming into this country. There is no Let us look at a few of the issues which are doubt at all that some of the products that very important in dealing with these things. have come into this country have hurt Aus- One of the principal reasons we had that tralian businesses greatly and they have sustained period where unemployment ranged created situations where there have been a job from nine to 11 per cent is that during the loss, a very sad and unfortunate job loss. So 1980s our average inflation rate was eight per we are seeking, in terms of dealing with that cent. Today that rate is down to nearly 1.4 per particular issue, to get that impediment out of cent. Business, the people who employ— the way and secure Australian jobs and small business in particular—know that they increase the number of Australian jobs. are now in a very sound inflationary position I will now go through a couple of other in terms of expanding their businesses and points that I think are very important in terms making good economic decisions which will of protecting Australian jobs and making sure create sustainable long-term jobs—not mickey that we get our equal share of what is avail- mouse jobs. able around the world, in particular in Asia. The next point I would make relates to the I repeat what I said in here last week: I am impact interest rates have had—again, a very not one of the doomsday merchants about important point—and what is happening in Asia and what has happened there. I think it that arena. Looking at the current situation as is quite tragic the way some of the journalists against that when we came into government, have decided to write it up. Maybe that is a mortgage rates were 10.5 per cent and today little unfair on the journalists. It is some of they are around 6.5 per cent. For a $100,000 the commentators who talk to the journalists mortgage that is a saving of $80 a week. about the situation in Asia. At the end of the Taking another measure which I think is very day, we are going to see two things in Asia. important and will allow people to invest The first is a much stronger financial system, more and help the business community, the which is absolutely crucial to those people average mortgage is around $120,000. That doing business with Asia. The other is that, represents a saving on interest rates of about although it will be a slower growth rate, it $100 per week or the equivalent of a wage will still be in the four per cent to seven per increase of $150 a week. It is these policies cent area, which will be close to leading the that I believe will allow Australia to be in a world as we move beyond the year 2000. 988 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

These things are all very good indicators in the dole scheme is that they are very proud to terms of the employment position. Australia’s be able to do something in return for the part in this, and I must highlight this, is our assistance they are getting from the Australian support with the IMF in terms of assisting taxpayer. That is my experience with the those particular countries not through gifts, people I have talked to about it. I quote from not through grants, but through loans and an article today in the Advertiser. It is headed currency swaps, assisting them at this time ‘Work for the dole scheme: a stepping stone through their financial difficulties. These are to success. Youngsters break into the jobs the types of initiatives we require in this world’. I will just read the first paragraph. It country to sustain—and I emphasise that very states: strongly—the slow improvement that we are A north-eastern suburb’s work for the dole scheme attaining as far as unemployment is con- has been so successful that three of the 14 young cerned. participants building bus shelters have landed jobs I particularly mention a little bit about within three weeks. training. I have my office in East Victoria It then goes on to talk about the training in Park. Parts of that electorate have some of the terms of their ability to build the bus shelters; lowest socioeconomic areas of any electorate their ability in joining, sanding, welding, in Australia. It is the Swan electorate. The design and all the various other things they member is Don Randall. It was formerly held are learning. That is a very good endorsement by the current Leader of the Opposition, of the fact that there is a place in Australian whom I mentioned earlier. We were sick and society today for a work for the dole scheme, tired, and so were the young people coming and that proves it. It is not the be all and end in, of the fact that they repeatedly said, ‘I’ve all. It is not the only answer. That is why we been trained once; I’ve been trained twice; have introduced some flexibility into the I’ve been trained three times.’ Some of them system for people seeking jobs. had been trained up to seven times and still did not have a job. All the training in the Regardless of what anybody in this place world will not get them anywhere unless there might think, not all CES offices worked as is sound economic policy behind it. well as they might have. During that unfortu- nate period when we had a lot of over-45- Having said that, I firmly believe that the year-olds lose their jobs, the last place they more training, the more assistance and the wanted to go or be seen to go, because of the further we can upgrade our education process- psychology of it, was to a CES office. Wheth- es around the country, the better. It is abso- er we like it or not, that is a fact of life. lutely essential that we do that. But at the end Whether you think it is right or wrong, that of the day there must be some hope. There is is a reality. In introducing some competition, nothing more soul destroying than to be some alternatives, you are going to allow a trained two or three times and still have no much wider scope of people to have varying hope of getting a job because you have been opportunities and hopefully—and I believe trained in the wrong areas. there will be—increased opportunities. Senator Neal interjecting— I want to come back to where I started in Senator CRANE—You were the absolute the remaining two or three minutes I have. specialists at it. You trained them without a There is no question that unemployment is a job at the other end. It is absolutely crucial in very difficult issue for Australia. It is coming terms of this that the two are matched. There down, albeit slowly. It is a very difficult is a very important initiative in terms of that, problem for most Australians. As I said earlier and I will quote from a press release. I was on, they have been touched by unemployment going to make a little comment with regard to through a partner, their family, in some one component of Senator Stott Despoja’s instances their parents. It is very traumatic. contribution today when she was critical of But there is one last thing that I wish to leave the work for the dole scheme. My experience in terms of this particular debate and how we with the people involved with the work for can effectively assist in this process, and that Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 989 is a piece of legislation that is coming up here country. I want to say that I think it is import- very shortly. I refer in particular to our 10- ant that we stress what has happened in terms point Wik plan and the importance of getting of the new employment services market that that legislation through this parliament. Once the government has sought to establish. The that is through and we can get rid of some of point I want to stress is that the government the deficiencies—and I am not talking about introduced a bill into this parliament last year the High Court decision here; there is nothing to set the framework for the new market that being removed in the 10-point plan Wik they hoped to establish. That bill was debated legislation that was delivered by the High and passed by the House of Representatives Court—it will get rid of some of the inven- and was then debated in the Senate. tions that were created by the former Prime But before the debate in the Senate had Minister, Mr Keating, and the then Senator finished, the government withdrew the bill. Gareth Evans, who is now in the other place. The government was not prepared to accept The most appalling of those inventions is the amendments already passed by the Senate the right to negotiate and the way that has and, rather than allow the Senate to complete been handled. I heard from one of my Abo- its work and review what had occurred and riginal friends the other day who said, ‘It take on board the opinions of the other sounds all right on the surface, but it is the senators in this chamber, it essentially spat the overlapping claims, the extortion, the fact that dummy, withdrew the bill and said, ‘We don’t whoever happens to negotiate gets all the need you. We can set up our new employ- money, buys their four-wheel drive vehicle ment services market without you; therefore, and then skips town.’ I am sure Senator Chris we’re not going to accept any amendments, Evans over there has heard these stories in any criticism, any critique, any improvements terms of what is happening on the ground. It to this bill.’ has held up project after project throughout I want to make it very clear to those listen- much of Australia, and particularly in my ing and put on the record that the government state of Western Australia. will wear this market. The government estab- There are many economic opportunities lished this market without parliamentary there if they are allowed to be opened up and approval and without accepting the parlia- developed. The 10-point plan is part of doing mentary processes in shaping that market. We that. It will increase the opportunities for jobs; made a range of criticisms about the it will increase exploration, mining and government’s proposal. We accepted in exports—these are the things work will come principle the move to a more competitive from. Finally, it is also absolutely crucial in market. It reflected a development that had terms of investment on an existing property started under the previous Labor administra- that we get certainty back into title. This issue tion of allowing private companies to be exists and has made a lot of people very involved in the employment market. But we cautious about what they do at this particular had a range of concerns about the new market time as far as their investment and expansion arrangements, about how it treated the long- are concerned. Where titles for exclusive term unemployed, about the role of what is possession have been granted, that should be now the old CES and very important issues made absolutely crystal clear in the legisla- that went to privacy and freedom of informa- tion. We should get rid of this nonsense of tion concerns—a whole range very serious claims over private land and claims over land public policy issues. where exclusive possession has been granted. The government would not accept the Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- scrutiny of the parliament. The government ia) (5.55 p.m.)—I wish to make a couple of said, ‘No. We want to do it our way; we quick points in the five minutes available to won’t accept any parliamentary scrutiny.’ So me in this general business debate. I am it withdrew the bills and proceeded down this pleased to join the debate because it is about path of establishing a new employment an issue that is crucial to the future of this service market in a quite reckless manner. At 990 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 the time, this was in the hands of Senator corporated in Hansard. It has been checked Vanstone, who was the minister at the time. with the other side. But I understand that it was driven straight Leave granted. out of the Prime Minister’s office. She took her instructions from the Prime Minister’s The speech read as follows— office. They had reimposed learner’s plates on Senate Speech—11th March 1998 her office and her activities as the minister I wish to rise and speak in particular on the issue then, and they deliberately decided, straight of the difficulties faced in the region in which I from the Prime Minister’s office, that they live in getting unemployment down. would go without any parliamentary processes I want to speak generally with regard to Tasmania into this new employment services market. and a little more specifically at times, of the Mersey-Lyell statistical division which includes a The government will have to wear this lot of the West and North West Coasts and includes grand experiment because the parliament was the cities and towns of Burnie, Devonport, Zeehan, not given the opportunity to scrutinise the bill Queenstown and Strahan. as it was. It was not given the chance to I mention the Mersey-Lyell region because that has debate the issues pertaining to this new the highest unemployment rate in Tasmania. In the last labour force data released in March 1998 the employment services market. The criticisms unemployment rate was 15.1 per cent representing that will come home to roost must be worn 8500 unemployed while Tasmania’s rate was 12 .5 and accepted by the government and the per cent. So there is a significant difference in the Minister for Employment, Education, Training North West & West Coast figures compared to the and Youth Affairs (Dr Kemp) because they rest of the State. refused to have any parliamentary input into It was revealed this week that seasonally adjusted this market. I want to make that very clear. At job advertisements for Tasmania fell 8.6 per cent the moment it may not seem such an import- opposed to a national increase of 5.1 per cent. With the release of those figures there was also some ant point but, when this whole thing unravels, positive news that the underlying trend for Tasman- I think Dr Kemp in the other House and ia was for slow continued growth. Senator Ellison in this chamber are going to Unfortunately the rate of growth is too slow and have to wear the responsibility for what will not fast enough to offset contraction in the areas be a gigantic failure, a real let-down of such as engineering and paper making to industries unemployed people and something that will that are located on the North West Coast. As an lose the Commonwealth millions of dollars example those areas are struggling to compete or because the whole thing is a shambles. to have had significant decrease in demand because of factors such as the Asian meltdown or the fall The new employment services market has in the global price of gold. been organised without parliamentary approv- It is important to realise that I do not believe our al. It was foisted upon a department that has Tasmanian businesses as a whole are inefficiently had its staffing and leadership culled so that managed. it is not in a position to undertake this sort of I believe, from discussion with many in the Tas- experimental development. I think we face a manian business community, that we are equal to our mainland counterparts in capturing markets in real disaster that will reflect, firstly, on the an increasing competitive market. Many Tasmanian unemployed people in this country and will businesses have had to remain lean and mean have much wider ramifications as well. because of our geographical isolation. We have for example some very competitive building contractors The other point I want to make is that there who are constantly winning tenders in Melbourne are serious legal concerns about this market and Sydney. because of the lack of parliamentary legisla- It’s not surprising that Tasmania is in a prolonged tion underpinning it. I think the whole thing recession. will collapse under legal challenge. I think the Tasmania has lost in the order of $160 million from government will be severely embarrassed the State economy since the Federal Liberal when this whole thing crumbles. In the couple Government took power. of seconds left to me, I seek leave on behalf It is difficult to reconcile that loss of revenue with of Senator Denman to have her speech in- the comments of the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 991 when he said he was committed to looking after the What’s hard for the unemployed of Tasmania to special needs of Tasmania. stomach is that the economic and industrial reforms This shortage of money has not assisted in what is agenda being followed by the Federal Government the most critical issue for the nation and for may to some degree lead to a raising in productivi- Tasmania that of unemployment. ty and living standards in the Mainland cities but that they and the rest of regional rural Australia Tasmania is not benefiting from this crusade by the suffers. Federal Government to balance the books. Not only has the State Government had costs Now is the time for the Federal Government to shifted to it by the Commonwealth without the reciprocate in providing greater levels of direct compensation in return but it is the individual public investment with a full engagement of local Tasmanian who has been personally stung. Be it by government and regional bodies to select projects. a decreasing of benefits or increasing of costs or I do not believe that a program of infrastructure even by the decreasing level of service provided by should have to be of national significance but rather their local community funded organisation. should have clearly defined objectives that are Those individual increases in costs includes things linked solely to Tasmania and tackles unemploy- like increased child care charges, increased individ- ment. ual contributions for legal aid, and increased I have received a letter recently as no doubt all my nursing home fees. Tasmanian colleagues have received from The As we know Tasmania does rely heavily on federal Master Builders’ Association of Tasmania regarding grants with 53 per cent of all Tasmanian public an infrastructure project seeking funding under the sector income being provided in the way of federal Federation Fund. It is for an AFL stadium. I grants. understand very well the significance of such a With this cost shifting as part of the deficit reduc- project to the building industry but do not believe tion strategy there has not been, in my view an with all the political involvement in the decision adequate reciprocation of the obligation by the making process that such a project has on the face federal government to reduce proactively and of it a demonstrated capability to be a balanced, urgently the high levels of unemployment that is sustainable development. crippling Tasmania. That is probably a harsh view because the aim of There has been a neglecting in my view of intro- the fund is to generate employment and stimulate ducing positive measures that could assist Tasman- development in the lead-up to the centenary ia. celebrations of federation. The building of such a stadium would probably do that but then how can Especially when some traditional areas within the we be assured that it will generate employment economy are significantly without those holes in once it is established and especially soak up those the economy being adequately filled by those unemployed in the Mersey-Lyell region. growth areas. In saying that Tasmania, has had, some recent There is certainly a strong sentiment in the North successes over the last decade that have flown in West of the State that an infrastructure project of the face of a slowing and stagnant economy such such magnitude like an ALP Stadium deserves to as our seafood industry. I have a very high regard be located in the region with the highest unem- for the entrepreneurialism of Tasmanian business ployment rate. men and women that have led to those successes, such as our vibrant seafood industry. DOCUMENTS I just don’t believe this Federal Liberal Government The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT even recognises the extent of the unemployment (Senator Patterson)—Order! There are 209 problem in Tasmania. government documents listed for consider- Tasmania is experiencing poor economic growth, ation on today’s Notice Paper, and there is a but I do not believe that Tasmania’s economic limit of eight minutes for their consideration. structure is any worse than some of the Mainland states. To expedite the consideration of the docu- ments, I propose, with the concurrence of In saying that I also believe Tasmania has some unique problems that impede our aim to possess an honourable senators, to call the documents in expanding economy. groups of 10. Documents called in each group Tasmanians are being told that benefits will accrue, to which no senator arises will be taken to be once all the reforms are in place in the areas such discharged from the Notice Paper. Documents as competition, the financial system, industry policy not called on today will remain on the Notice and industrial relations. Paper. 992 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Department of Industrial Relations National Residue Survey—Report for 1996-97 Debate resumed from 22 October 1997, on Telstra Corporation Limited—Report for 1996-97 motion by Senator Hogg: Australian Hearing Services—Report for 1996-97 Australian Institute of Family Studies—Report That the Senate take note of the document. for 1996-97 Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (6.05 Australian Securities Commission—Report for p.m.)—I want to refer to a press release that 1996-97 I received today from ACIL Economics, Health Insurance Commission—Report for 1996- which was purportedly authorised by the 97 Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security— Minister for Workplace Relations and Small Report for 1996-97 Business (Mr Reith). It purports to reveal an Dairy Research and Development Corporation— aspect of the ACIL Economics report that was Report for 1996-97 delivered to the government in 1996 and Australian Maritime Safety Authority—Report which this government declares as commer- for 1996-97 cial-in-confidence and cabinet-in-confidence. Murray-Darling Basin Commission—Report for The press release says that the aspect of the 1996-97 report that it reveals has been authorised to be Rural Adjustment Scheme Advisory Council— revealed by Minister Reith. Reports, including a report on the Rural Adjust- ment Scheme—1996-97 I have also stated in this chamber—and it National Board of Employment, Education and has not been denied—that this and other Training—Australian Research Council—Report, reports which are the subject of returns to including the Board’s comments—Reviews of order in this chamber and which have not grants outcomes—Atmospheric and oceanograph- been produced to this chamber and are alle- ic sciences 1989-1993 (Report No. 22) gedly commercial-in-confidence have been Department of Health and Family Services— revealed to the National Farmers’ Federation. Reports for 1996-97 including reports on the administration and operation of the Common- I call on the minister responsible in this wealth Rehabilitation Service, the Therapeutic chamber, Senator Alston, to come in here and Goods Administration and the Australian to produce for the Senate the documents Government Health Service which are the subject of the returns to order Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Re- which relate to the waterfront consultancies, search Organisation (CSIRO)—Report for 1996- as I will call them, and which are the subject 97 Aboriginals Benefit Trust Account—Report for of the particular press release that I received 1996-97 from ACIL Economics today. If it is good Private Health Insurance Complaints Commis- enough for these items to be given to the sioner—Report for 1996-97 National Farmers Federation or for parts of Australian Institute of Health and Welfare— them to be given to the media for the purpose Report for 1996-97 of the government’s argument, then it is good National Registration Authority for Agricultural enough for the Senate to have all of those and Veterinary Chemicals—Report for 1996-97 documents. I would suggest that it is time the Airservices Australia—Report for 1996-97 minister came in here and complied with the Indigenous Land Corporation—Report for 1996- order of the Senate, stopped dribbling pieces 97 out to suit his own purpose and came clean Forest and Wood Products Research and Devel- with the Senate. I seek leave to continue my opment Corporation—Report for 1996-97 remarks later. Aboriginal Hostels Limited—Report for 1996-97 International Air Services Commission—Report Leave granted; debate adjourned. for 1996-97 Consideration Australian Pig Industry Council—Report for 1996-97 Question resolved in the affirmative on the National Native Title Tribunal—Report for 1996- following orders of the day without further 97—Addendum debate during consideration of government Australian Nuclear Science and Technology documents. Organisation—Report for 1996-97 Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 993

Consideration of motion to take note of the Genetic Manipulation Advisory Committee— following government documents adjourned Report for 1996-97 without debate. Department of Transport and Regional Develop- National Museum of Australia—Report for 1996- ment—Report for 1996-97 97 Australian Meat and Live-stock Corporation— Department of Communications and the Arts— Report for 1996-97 Report for 1996-97 Meat Research Corporation—Report for 1996-97 National Gallery of Australia—Report for 1996- Department of Social Security—Report for 1996- 97. 97. Treaties—Text together with national interest Australian Federal Police—Report for 1996-97, analysis—Bilateral—Agreement between the including a report pursuant to the Complaints Government of Australia and the International (Australian Federal Police) Act 1981. Bureau of the World Intellectual Property Australian Science, Technology and Engineering Organization in relation to the functioning of the Council—Report for 1996-97. Australian Patent Office as an International Employment Advocate—Report for the period 2 Searching Authority and International Prelimi- January to 30 June 1997. nary Examining Authority under the Patent Cooperation Treaty of June 1970. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commis- sion—Report for 1996-97. Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies—Report for 1996-97 ANL Limited—Report for 1996-97. Australian Competition and Consumer Commis- Australian War Memorial—Report for 1996-97. sion—Report for 1996-97 Australian Broadcasting Corporation—Report for National Film and Sound Archive—Report for 1996-97. 1996-97 Australian Heritage Commission—Report for Australian Film Finance Corporation Limited— 1996-97. Report for 1996-97 Wet Tropics Management Authority—Report for Australian Wine and Brandy Corporation— 1996-97. Report for 1996-97 Defence—Report for 1996-97. Australian Film Commission—Report for 1996- Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal—Report 97 for 1996-97. Rural Industries Research and Development Defence Housing Authority—Report for 1996-97. Corporation—Report for 1996-97 Australian Institute of Marine Science—Report Pig Research and Development Corporation and for 1996-97. Pig Research and Development Corporation National Competition Council—Report for 1996- Selection Committee—Reports for 1996-97 97. Australian Pork Corporation—Report for 1996-97 Australian Centre for International Agricultural Australian Archives and Advisory Council on Research Act—Australian Centre for Internation- Australian Archives—Reports for 1996-97 al Agricultural Research—Report for 1996-97. Australian Film, Television and Radio School— Industrial Relations Court of Australia—Report Report for 1996-97 for 1996-97. Australian Industrial Relations Commission and Australian Political Exchange Council—Report Australian Industrial Registry—Reports for 1996- for 1996-97. 97 Privacy Commissioner—Report for 1996-97 on National Occupational Health and Safety Com- the operation of the Act. mission—Report for 1996-97 Pharmaceutical Benefits Pricing Authority— Affirmative Action Agency—Report for 1 June Report for 1996-97 1996 to 31 May 1997 Agriculture and Resource Management Council Remuneration Tribunal—Report for 1996-97 of Australia and New Zealand—Record and ADI Limited—Report for 1996-97 resolutions—11th meeting, Darwin, 8 August Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority— 1997 Report for 1996-97 Cotton Research and Development Corporation Department of Primary Industries and Energy— and Cotton Research and Development Corpora- Report for 1996-97. tion Selection Committee—Reports for 1996-97. Australian Safeguards Office and the Chemical Sugar Research and Development Corporation Weapons Convention Office—Report for 1996- and Sugar Research and Development Corpora- 97 tion Selection Committee—Reports for 1996-97. 994 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

National Environment Protection Council and that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppres- NEPC Service Corporation—Reports for 1996- sion and resistance. 97. I hope this report is part of those ripples and Nursing Home Standards Review Panels— that current that will help reduce and remove Reports for 1996-97. the oppression that currently exists in the Anti-Dumping Authority—Report for 1996-97. Australian community. I address this report as Landcare Australia Limited—Report for 1996-97. the Australian Democrat spokesperson on International Monetary Agreements Act and the sexuality and transgender issues. It has re- International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (General Capital Increase) Act— sponsibility for the piece of legislation that Australia and the World Bank—Report for 1996- was the central focus of this committee report. 97. I hope to see that legislation debated in the International Monetary Agreements Act— Senate at some stage soon to build on the Australia and the IMF—Report for 1 May 1996 good work that this committee did and that to 30 April 1997. this report does. COMMITTEES As a political party, the Democrats have Community Affairs References been pro-active in championing the rights of Committee lesbian and gay Australians since our incep- tion in 1977. The very first branch meeting of Report our party was held in the lounge room of Debate resumed from 5 March 1998, on Christopher Byron Carter—an openly gay motion by Senator Bishop: man who was also a founding member of the That the Senate take note of the report. party and who later served on the staff of Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (6.08 former Senator Don Chipp and someone who p.m.)—I have spoken on this report already has a strong legacy in the Democrats. and would like to make some further com- It is important to remember that 1977 was ments on it at a later date. At this stage, I only 21 years ago, but Australia was a very seek leave to continue my remarks later. different place in lots of ways. With the Leave granted; debate adjourned. exception of South Australia, at that time, Legal and Constitutional References consensual same sex activity was a criminal Committee offence in every state and territory of this Report nation. Prosecutions were relatively common as was the regular pastime of police randomly Debate resumed from 5 March 1998, on raiding gay and lesbian social venues and motion by Senator McKiernan: blackmail, humiliation and intimidation of That the Senate take note of the report. patrons was a common occurrence. Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (6.09 It is important for the Senate to note that p.m.)—I rise to speak today on the report within the last 15 years in some places we are from the Senate’s Legal and Constitutional still imprisoning mainly gay men for being References Committee into sexuality discrimi- simply who they are. It took the riots at the nation which was tabled in this place on 2 first Mardi Gras in 1978 to set gay law December last year. I was not able at that reform firmly on the political agenda in time to speak at length because of the pres- Australia. I acknowledge the hard work and sure of business at that time of year. dedication of activists everywhere in pursuing I would like to start by using the words of reform. I was very proud to be part of the another and more famous Democrat, former very large and enthusiastic Democrat contin- US Attorney-General Robert Kennedy. In gent that helped commemorate the 20th 1966, he spoke the following words that have anniversary of that civil rights movement with been frequently quoted, reminding us that: 700,000 other people in Sydney on 28 Feb- Each time someone stands up for an ideal, or acts ruary this year. to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope and Regardless of the reforms and the advances crossing each other from a million different centres that have been made in the last 20 years, of energy and daring, those ripples build a current complacency is certainly not warranted, as Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 995 this report so strongly indicates. As recently people to put their case—for them to have a as August 1994, Victorian police raided the voice—and that is one of the great roles that Commerce Club in Melbourne—a well-known Senate committees can play. Those people gay and lesbian night club—and unlawfully overwhelmingly informed the committee that strip searched 463 of its patrons. To our great their experience was one of significant disad- shame, the Tasmanian parliament only de- vantage in many aspects of their daily lives. criminalised same sex activity last year, with In areas of employment, more than 45 per the Western Australian parliament still to cent of lesbians and gay men have experi- catch up with the rest of the country. It still enced discrimination in the workplace includ- remains the fact that your human rights will ing the loss of jobs because of their sexuality. be different if your are lesbian, gay or Almost one-third report harassment in their transgender depending on where you live in schools and universities. One-fifth report this country. I would like to take the oppor- inadequate and inappropriate medical treat- tunity to mention the work of my state col- ment, while a staggering 70 per cent have had league the Hon. Helen Hodgson MLC, who some experience of being verbally abused, has introduced decriminalisation and anti- threatened or bashed in a public place. In the discrimination measures in Western Australia. Sydney area alone, over 35 men have been If Australia is to retain its rightful place murdered in the past 10 or so years because amongst the community of nations as a their assailants thought they were gay. Clear- country which promotes human rights, then ly, this is an issue that must be addressed. we must do so in a clear, unambiguous and universal way. Amnesty International has Some concern has been expressed over the documented the international position in their inclusion of transgender people in this bill. publication Breaking the silence last year by The status of being transgendered is a medi- illustrating that torture and political imprison- cally recognised condition known as gender ment are not uncommon in many countries of dysphoria. It does not include transvestitism the world simply on the grounds of sexuality. or what is often called cross-dressing. I am sure that senators would agree that it is It remains a source of some puzzlement to inappropriate and unfortunate that some me that some people are perfectly comfortable people have chosen to ridicule persons who with the notion of anti-discrimination on the are receiving medical treatment for a medical grounds of race, gender and disability but condition, and the report recommended that seem to get all up in arms when we talk about the bill’s aim be to protect those people who applying the same principles on the grounds are gender dysphoric. After all, who amongst of sexuality or for people who are trans- us would like to be treated the way we as a gendered. No doubt many senators will, like society treat gay, lesbian, bisexual and me, have been inundated in the last week or transgender Australians every day of the so by letters claiming that the Sexuality week? The sort of treatment that those people Discrimination Bill, which was the main focus are subjected to came out very strongly in of this inquiry, constitutes everything from an much of the evidence that was given to the endorsement of paedophilia to a concerted committee. attack upon religious teachings. It is clear from the tone and phrasing of these letters It is important to emphasise that the bill that a smear campaign or a misinformation that the report addresses does not force the campaign is under way. It is also clear that Christian or other religions to change their the writers of these letters have, at the very beliefs or to employ gay, lesbian or least, been told some very severe transgender people. As with other equal misinformation about this legislation or have opportunity laws in Australia, the bill includes failed to read or understand its contents or its certain exemptions including religious organi- scope. sations and churches. It does not place chil- One of the most important things about this dren at risk. It does not make unlawful acts inquiry, and its report, was the opportunity it lawful. It does not require that homosexuality gave lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender be taught in schools. It does not force anyone 996 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 to accept anyone else’s lifestyle. It does not it seemed like he was talking about a com- legitimise any specific sexual practices. It pletely different report from the one that was, does not allow people to cross-dress in in fact, handed down. To be fair to him, schools or at work, or allow biological men Senator Bartlett is new to the chamber and to compete in women’s sport. It does, at a would not be familiar with much of the work basic level, allow people who have been that was done by the committee, but let me unfairly discriminated against on the basis of point out that the bill is principally about their sexuality or their transgender status to people who are described as transgenderists. achieve a level of justice. That means they are usually cross-dressers or In essence, it seeks to protect all Austral- transvestites; that is the language that most ians, including heterosexual people, if they people normally understand. have been wrongfully dismissed or refused What Senator Bartlett omitted from his very employment, accommodation or access to eloquent and moving speech was the fact that, goods and services, or have been disadvan- in the course of the proceedings before the taged while attending or applying to educa- committee, a number of transgenderists and tional institutions on the grounds of their transgender organisations complained that sexuality. At its core this bill is basically they were the subject of discrimination from about ensuring that all Australians are given lesbians and homosexuals because lesbians a fair go through universal legislation com- and homosexuals refused to accept people mon across the country to enable that to who were cross-dressers. So I think Senator occur. Bartlett ought to get some of his facts right I am quite proud of the Democrats’ role in when he gets up to address this matter next this report and in the legislation that it exam- time, if indeed he does so. ines. It is a serious look at the conditions I want to take a few minutes to address the faced every day by gay, lesbian, bisexual and report because it was a matter of some inter- transgender people in all parts of Australia. I est to me, and I know it is a matter of con- will close by noting a 1986 statement from siderable interest to my constituents in the Catholic church issued by the Congrega- Queensland. In the last two weeks my office tion for the Doctrine of the Faith entitled The has counted 330 letters that have been sent to pastoral care of homosexual persons.It me from all over Queensland complaining stated: about the possibility that this bill could be It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been carried. The complaints were not just about and are the object of violent malice in speech or in the bill. The complaints were also about the action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals majority report of the committee, and Senator a kind of disregard for others which endangers the Bartlett has gilded the lily here a little bit. most fundamental principles of a healthy society. Senator Bartlett says that the bill does not The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law. provide that a religious institution should be obliged to employ a transvestite, or When enacted, the sexuality and gender transgenderist, in an educational institution. identity bill, which this report deals with, will That is correct. The original form of the bill implement that very important principle. I did require that; the then Senator Spindler commend the report to the Senate and to the withdrew that—that is correct. What Senator Australian public for their consideration. I Bartlett did not tell the Senate—and obviously know it has been a very popular report as does not want my constituents to know—is there have been a lot of requests for copies that the Democrat representative and the and for information about its contents. It is a majority Labor senators on that committee great report, and I hope everybody takes the argued that, in fact, the provisions of the bill chance to examine it. should be extended and should oblige reli- Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (6.19 gious schools to take on people who are p.m.)—I was intrigued by the comments we transgenderists even though that is contrary to have just heard from Senator Bartlett because the religious foundations of that school itself. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 997

Senator Lightfoot—We’re not getting the Senator O’CHEE—Some more than whole story. others. That is a very helpful interjection from Senator Mackay. Senator Mackay, even Senator O’CHEE—We are not getting the women with excessively high testosterone whole story from Senator Bartlett. But that is levels do not get a testosterone level any- what the majority of the committee argued where near like you would get in a man. and that is what Senator Bartlett conveniently Testosterone does a number of things. It neglected to tell this Senate. But, of course, changes the density of muscle fibre and the I am not surprised. shape of the pelvis, for example. Another Senator Bartlett—Mr Acting Deputy thing that it does is enhance muscle growth. President, on a point of order: I do not like it If a person is born a biological male, even being implied that I am deliberately deceiving though they want to be a female, they cannot the Senate by not giving all the facts. I escape the fact that by dint of their birth they suggest nonetheless that Senator O’Chee does have substantial physiological advantages over the same thing and not misrepresent the report women in most sports—power sports in when he is speaking to it. particular, but a whole range of sports. That is why women’s world records in just about The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT any event you mention are much lower than (Senator Hogg)—There is no point of order. men’s world records. Men have all the Senator O’CHEE—There is absolutely no physiological advantages. point of order as there is absolutely no point Let me give you an example. Susie O’Neill, in many of the things that Senator Bartlett has when she won the Olympic gold medal in to say in this place. It is just typical of the Atlanta in the 100 metres butterfly, did it in fact that the Democrats like to have their way a time of two minutes and 9 seconds. The and their say but do not like a debate. It is the highest ranked Australian male in the same hallmark of democracy, Senator Bartlett, that event—I think it was Michael Klim but it you can have a debate in this place. Senator may have been Scott Miller—did it in one Bartlett, you were listened to with consider- minute 59 seconds. He was third and there able forbearance on this side of the chamber was a 10 second difference. Allowing a and I would have thought that, as a new person who is a biological male, even though senator, you might at least have the decency he may feel himself to be a female, to com- to exercise the same forbearance even though pete in female sporting events gives that you may not agree with the arguments I put. person an unfair and unnatural advantage. You might at least have the forbearance to Most people involved in sport recognise that listen to them as I have listened to you. But and have condemned that part of the report isn’t it interesting that some of the people that suggests that people who are transgender here seem to have different standards on should be allowed to compete in sport. tolerance when it comes to points of view that they do not support. I see Senator O’Brien shaking his head. He is probably under the misapprehension that Let me move on to another very contentious the report did not say that. The report said area of this report; it relates to sport. It is that they should be allowed to do it. In fact, very important to get the facts right here. the report believed that those provisions of Biologically a person who is born a man has the bill should be applied to sport. Senator considerable physiological advantages in most Bolkus, were he here, would say that that is sports over women. It is to do with the fact not correct because there is a provision that that testosterone is produced in substantially says that a sporting organisation could apply higher quantities in a biological male than in for an exemption. They would have to apply a biological female. Everybody accepts that to court for an exemption. fact. I do not need to go into the anatomical reasons why that is so. It is just a fact. Senator Bolkus has also said on other instances things which were not correct. For Senator Mackay—Some more than others! example, he said that they have been auto- 998 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 matically exempted. That is not the case. The of Senator Bartlett’s predecessors, Senator sporting body that regulates the sport would Spindler, a man of some eminence— have to apply for an exemption and incur considerable legal expense to present their Senator Chris Evans—A good Democrat. case and they would have to keep on doing it Senator COONEY—A good Democrat, every five years. Sport in this country has and someone who spoke very much in favour never been well funded. Every sporting of human rights, I might say. As I understand organisations will tell you that they are hard it, Senator O’Chee—who is a considerable pressed for cash. Think about all those sportsman himself and a good coach too—has women’s sporting organisations—and raised this issue on several occasions. I was women’s sport gets less money from sponsor- associated with the majority report, but I have ship than men’s sport does, and I think that spoken to people connected with this report, that is reprehensible—going along every five the leaders who actually directed the writing years to the lawyers to kick in more money of it, and their understanding is that what to keep applying for exemptions so that Senator O’Chee complains about is not women can have a decent chance to compete contained in the report. I think Senator against women. O’Chee has raised some mighty issues here, Senator Ferris—Sounds like native title. but they arise from a concept of the report Senator O’CHEE—Senator Ferris, it may which others would dispute. I think he turned create as many opportunities for lawyers as his mind fairly to this and said that if Senator native title does. But it is unnecessary. Bolkus were here he might take a different The coalition senators were in the minority view. I suggest that this report be kept on the in this report. We said that we did not believe list, and later I will move that. in discrimination and where there is violence May I say, having a daughter who is a we abhor the violence. We believe that all considerable sportswoman, in the water and you have to do—and what has not been done as a runner and elsewhere, that I certainly in many circumstances—is to say that where think it would be unfair that she should be you have a hate-motivated crime of violence put up against people who had attributes that the hate should be considered an aggravating were in addition to those that a female should circumstance. It should result in a mandatory have. When I think of our great woman higher penalty being imposed on the perpetra- athlete, the golden girl Betty Cuthbert, who tors. That is how you should deal with all you would not remember seeing run, Senator hate-related crimes, be they racial, religious Evans, because she ran before your time— or sexual. But we do not agree with the more outra- Senator O’Chee—I thought she ran before geous provisions of the report and the bill and your time too, Barney. that is why I still have hundreds of constitu- ents writing to me. If they continue to write Senator COONEY—I was there in 1956 to me and if Senator Bartlett continues to take and saw her win the 100 metres race. Shirley this point of view I might start to send the Strickland and Dawn Fraser were other great letters to him so that he can see that there are Australian women athletes over the years. The a lot of people who are very concerned about most tragic circumstances were those that this. I do not believe the bill deserves a affected Raelene Boyle, who I think would reading in this place, certainly not in the form have had two gold medals for Australia but in which it is at the moment. If it does come for drugs that people from East Germany up for reading I will certainly be voting used. Senator O’Chee is correct in saying that against it. (Time expired) sporting contests should be fair, but what is in dispute is the contents of the report. In Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.30 p.m.)— those circumstances, I seek leave to continue The report that Senator O’Chee talks about is my remarks later. a very important report. It arises following a bill that was brought into the chamber by one Leave granted; debate adjourned. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 999

Rural and Regional Affairs and This was no ordinary group of scientists; Transport Legislation Committee they were the best available. The group was chaired by Dr Gardiner Murray from AQIS Report: Government Response and included Dr Bill Geering from the Bureau Debate resumed from 5 March, on motion of Resource Science, Dr Trevor Bagust from by Senator Ian Campbell: the University of Melbourne, Dr Bob Steele from the CSIRO, Jeff Fairbrother and Mar- That the Senate take note of the document. garet McKenzie from the industry, and Dr Andrew Turner who is Victoria’s chief vet. I Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (6.36 understand the group reported to AQIS in p.m.)—This report is entitled Importation of early January and advised that the Weybridge cooked chicken meat into Australia. In the tests were soundly based and accurate. The recent round of estimates there was certain group said the Weybridge results differed additional material which I think needs to be from the earlier AQIS work because of the put on the record in relation to this matter. On virus strains used and the medium in which 22 January last year the Minister for Primary the virus was tested; that is, the testing carried Industries and Energy announced a final out by Weybridge generated different and round of tests designed to confirm the cook- more appropriate data because it was more ing parameters required to enable the safe relevant to the nature of the product being importation of cooked chicken meat. The assessed. minister was in fact forced into undertaking further research by the findings of the Senate It appears that, despite this process being Rural and Regional Affairs, this committee, accepted by AQIS and despite the fact that on the risk assessment undertaken by AQIS. this laboratory has an international reputation The Bureau of Resource Sciences was com- for its expertise in Newcastle disease and missioned by AQIS to supervise the trials and infectious bursal disease, AQIS is now ques- selected the Central Veterinary Laboratory in tioning the results of the trials. This approach Weybridge, England. This facility has a very by AQIS does not augur well for the post- high international reputation with the scientif- Nairn appropriate risk assessment process; ic community and has acknowledged expertise that is, the use of independent panels to in both Newcastle disease and infectious undertake controversial assessments. bursal disease. I understand that the Waybridge facility has access to virulent I repeat that this work was carried out by strains of both these diseases and has high arguably the best laboratory in the world in security facilities to enable proper trials to be this field. Its results were reviewed by a panel carried out. I also understand that the proto- selected and appointed by AQIS, but AQIS cols for these trials were agreed by the Bu- apparently is still not prepared to accept these reau of Resource Sciences, AQIS, the findings. The scientific working group also Weybridge scientists and the Australian found that the time temperature regime, I industry. So we had arguably the best scien- assume constructed by AQIS based on the tists in the world and we had a process agreed Weybridge data, is flawed. by the BRS and AQIS itself, and cleared by the Australian industry. I was advised in estimates by the executive director of AQIS, Mr Paul Hickey, that issues The work found that the protocols recom- about the construction of the time and tem- mended by AQIS were inadequate for infec- perature parameters were raised by this group. tious bursal disease. As a result, AQIS com- Mr Hickey confirmed that, subject to further missioned a special scientific working group input from the Weybridge scientists, the time to evaluate the Weybridge results. The terms temperature regime released in November by of reference stated in part that the group Minister Anderson was inadequate. The times, should ‘advise as to why the results differ it appears, were too short and the cooking from previous heat inactivation trial results on temperatures may well be too low. This IBDV.’ outcome does little to improve the confidence 1000 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 in the quarantine import risk assessment Griffith has just announced plans to employ process. an extra 1,000 people. This is an outcome that must be of con- This is a government that has done nothing siderable concern not only to the chicken for regional development—nothing at all. industry but also to those other industries that They gutted the regional development part of currently face exposure to imported product their department. They got rid of it. They got if the markets are relaxed or access to our it from 230-odd employees down to about six. markets is relaxed by determinations by Now they are not prepared to bite the bullet AQIS. They include the salmon industry; the and say, ‘We were wrong about what we were pork industry, which has been the subject of going to do. We should not be allowing some recent relaxation of controls on the imports of cooked or other chicken meat into importation of pork products; and the apple this country because the danger of disease is and pear industry, on which I note there have too great.’ been articles in the newspaper about the renewal of the consideration of applications This government just does not seem to be by New Zealand to introduce those products able to comprehend that AQIS has not been into Australia. I think this is a matter of great able to get it right. They do not seem to be concern and this is a matter that will be able to comprehend that a decision needs to watched closely by the opposition. be made to give certainty and assurance to Senator WEST (New South Wales) (6.41 this very important industry, and that it needs p.m.)—I have just learnt the facts that were to be able to continue. The investments need discovered at estimates—that AQIS made a to be able to continue. People like the Bartters mistake. The tests were not as we thought at at Griffith need to be certain that the current the time and, as has obviously now been government is not going to allow the importa- proven, assumptions were not able to be made tion into this country of diseases that will not based on the original tests and carried only decimate the chicken industry but will through. With what AQIS and the minister also decimate the bird population of this responsible have nearly done there is still the country. potential, unless it is sorted out, to undermine I think it ill behoves the government to sit and erode this very important industry to here and continue to do nothing. A number of Australia and particularly to New South us have been making pleas for some consider- Wales. able time. We have sat on committees, moved It is essential to remember that the chicken around the state and taken evidence and, if industry is the largest employer in the Hunter the government does nothing, it will be on Valley. This government has done very little their heads that they have chosen to ignore for the Hunter Valley. We have seen the the work of the committee, which has been a retrenchment of steelworkers and we have bipartisan committee and the findings have seen the impact of their industrial relations been bipartisan. We are now having expert upon the mines. But now we see that they are evidence being brought to the estimates continuing to not care about the Hunter committee to indicate that the concerns of the Valley and they are continuing to put at risk industry which were brought to our attention the largest employer in that area. You move are correct. I think that it is disgusting. It up the Hunter Valley and up the New Eng- needs to be remedied and the government has land Highway to the Speaker’s electorate of it within its power to do so, instead of going New England and there you have another around saying, ‘Oh, we need new research. significant chicken industry. That area is a We need new evidence.’ The evidence is major employer also. The central coast of actually there. It actually got Dr Alexander to New South Wales, the north of the Illawarra do specialist work on the specific issues and and the MIA are other significant chicken the specific diseases that they were trying to industry areas in this state. They are signifi- extrapolate from his original research that cant employers. We know that Bartters in would apply to the other organisms. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1001

The fact that Dr Alexander’s work does not debate during consideration of committee prove what AQIS thought was right is signifi- reports and government responses. cant. It proves there are the dangers, and we Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References cannot afford to see further attacks on rural Committee—Report—Helping Australians Australia, particularly rural New South Wales abroad: A review of the Australian Government’s in this particular situation. As I have said, this consular services—Government response. is a major employer of people in areas of this Consideration of motions to take note of the state. When we are talking about the introduc- following committee reports adjourned with- tion of any of these diseases, we are talking out debate: about the loss of thousands and thousands of Community Affairs References Committee— jobs, we are talking about the possible safety Report—Housing assistance. of people who eat the product, and we are Publications—Joint Standing Committee— talking about the decimation of the avian Report—Future of the parliamentary papers population in this country. series Superannuation—Select Committee—Report— It really concerns me that a number of the Parliamentary Contributory Superannuation green groups have not actually looked at this Scheme & the Judges’ Pension Scheme— particular issue and do not seem to be cognis- Government response ant of the danger to the avian species in this Public Accounts—Joint Statutory Committee— country, to the biodiversity of this country, Report 355—Aboriginal Councils and Torres and to the uniqueness of our avian population. Strait Island Councils: Review of financial We have a number of birds in this country accountability requirements that are only found here, and it would be Public Accounts—Joint Statutory Committee— absolutely criminal, in an environmental Report 354—Annual report 1996-97 Finance and Public Administration References context, to run the risk of destroying that very Committee—Report—Contracting out of govern- beautiful and very special unique population ment services—First report: Information technol- that we have. I certainly urge the green ogy. groups to start to take an interest in this. This is the sort of devastation of our native fauna Community Affairs References that, once it happens, it is too late—it is gone, Committee we will have lost it. We will not have just Meeting lost one or two species, we could lose whole Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the genera. request of Senator Bishop)—by leave— It is a very sad situation. I think it behoves agreed to: the government to very speedily make a That the Community Affairs References Commit- decision, for a number of very valid and very tee be authorised to hold a public hearing during important reasons that I have outlined here. It the sitting of Senate on 23 March from 4 p.m., to is an important issue. There is a major indus- take evidence for the committee’s inquiry into the try in this country that is put under threat. provision of public dental services in Australia. The longer this government goes on not PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION TO taking into consideration those points, the VENEZUELA AND THE UNITED greater at risk this industry will be. The STATES OF AMERICA government must do something quickly and Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (6.50 make the announcements so that the industry p.m.)—by leave—The particular aspect of the has certainty and surety and people are sure delegation’s visit to the United States that I that their jobs will remain. I seek leave to would like to focus on tonight concerns a continue my remarks later. visit to the city of New York and, in particu- Leave granted; debate adjourned. lar, briefings that were given by the police commissioner in New York. The city of New Consideration York—the Big Apple as we know it— Question resolved in the affirmative on the conjures up all sorts of visions in people’s following order of the day without further minds. We have seen it on film and we have 1002 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 seen it on television. There is no doubt it the last year alone. In fact, it is back to the evokes quite powerful images for many levels of the late sixties. Australians and, in fact, for many people all over the world. Howard Safir told us about the strategy that he has implemented to bring about this I think one of the aspects of the city’s remarkable change. I would like to share it urban mythology focuses on Central Park. It with the Senate tonight. It is a concept known is known as the lungs of the city and it is as the broken window strategy. It is based on probably the focus of the city for many the idea that taking no action on minor crimes millions of people, both residents and visitors. such as graffiti, broken windows, panhan- When I went to New York in 1992, I was dling, bag snatching, and so on, gives a very warned about Central Park: it was off limits clear message that the community at large is if you went there alone; you should not take prepared to tolerate this sort of crime, that it a handbag there; you should not visit late in really does not matter all that much. People the afternoon; and you certainly should not go would think, ‘Oh well, there is already one near the park after dark—although, of course, broken window, another one will not make it is actually closed to the public after dark. much difference at all,’ and, ‘I have seen It was certainly seen as an area of particularly some graffiti on that building, but it is not too high crime and a good deal of violent crime. bad, so I will not worry about it.’ These days millions of people are using that The broken window strategy targets police park for family activities and doing so in efforts with the small core of criminals, both quite amazing safety, just a couple of years hard criminals and petty criminals, who are after it was one of the most dangerous parts responsible for the major crime on the streets of the city. of New York. This quite fresh approach of This has happened because the police in what I would call zero tolerance of crime has New York, under the guidance of the Police deterred quite an amazing amount of crime Commissioner Howard Safir, have taken on from the streets and parklands of that city. It the responsibility of making the city and, in targets crime before it gets out of hand, particular, the park, safe for families. The before it gets to be big crime and before it police go into the park on foot, on horses, on gets to be serious, violent crime. scooters and on bicycles. They go in uniform These efforts to fight the city’s crime rate and they go in plain clothes. They are every- have been a remarkable success. If only we where in that park, and that park is now could say the same for Australia. Our cities known as an area which is policed to the are a visual disgrace. Graffiti appears on some extent that it is safer now than it was 30 years of our more historic and beautiful buildings. ago. Then there is the bag snatching, the assaults on the elderly, the shoplifting and the house Howard Safir briefed the delegation about break-ins, and so on. Most of all, there are the the ways in which he has taken on this chal- assaults on, and even murders of, the very lenge together with the mayor of New York men and women whom we employ in this and how he has made New York one of the country to enforce our laws—our police safest large cities in the world and certainly officers. in the United States. They have done quite an astonishing job. It is now a pleasure to walk Our cities have become a terrifying prospect the streets and the parklands of New York. for people who are alone at night on the You see small children playing without footpaths, in the car parks and in the quite apparent close supervision, and the streets are beautiful park lands, where as soon as it noticeably free of panhandlers and beggars, begins to get dark you cannot go to them. which are things you see in some of the other After dark, our cities become dangerous ghost larger cities in the United States. There has towns. They are run by the lawless, the gangs, been a 60 per cent decrease in murders in the dealers, the pimps and the standover New York and 165 fewer murders just during bullies. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1003

Criminologists have identified the cost of business a bigger slice of the government this upsurge in crime. Motor vehicle theft is procurement cake through changes in purchas- now costing the Australian community over ing policy and practice. $1 billion a year. There were 351 murders in The matter I wish to raise tonight is the Australia in 1995, and 334,000 Australians decision of the Australian Taxation Office to were victims of assault or threats of violence. terminate a contract with a small Tasmanian Many of them were elderly and many of them security firm in favour of a national contract were in their own homes at the time. In one with an international security services provid- year alone 300,000 burglaries had cost us er. Senator Newman should be well aware of almost $1 billion. What a tragic set of statist- this case because, as I understand from the ics and what a tragedy for Australia. constituents concerned, the firm has forward- Howard Safir, the New York police com- ed to her all the relevant documents. How- missioner, is an impressive man. He is a ever, we have not heard anything from Sena- police commissioner who has accepted and tor Newman, so I intend to take up the matter implemented the challenge of returning the directly with the Minister for Finance and city of New York to its people and to the Administration (Mr Fahey) myself. It is his tourists who go there. There is no doubt our responsibility to ensure that the government’s police do the very best they are able, but promise to small business on purchasing resources and the sheer weight of the bully policy is delivered. boys has even daunted them. We saw the I would like to begin by telling the Senate terrible evidence of that in Sydney just this a little bit about the security firm concerned, past week. which is Pelham Security. Pelham Security Our community, the same as the community are a Tasmanian owned and operated com- of New York, wants safer streets, cleaner pany. The directors, Kevin and Gail Pelham, cities and less dangerous parklands. So do the advised me they employ directly and indirect- people of New York, and Howard Safir has ly 75 Tasmanians. It has provided 75 jobs in delivered it. He has shared his broken window the state with the nation’s highest unemploy- strategy with us, and I would commend that ment rate. I am also advised that all profits everybody read the document and think about from this business are spent in Tasmania. the suggestions that he has made in it. Pelham Security have been providing ADJOURNMENT security services to the Australian Taxation The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Office at their Collins Street offices since (Senator Hogg)—Order! I propose the ques- 1995. The original contract was for two years, tion: and it was renewed last October for a further 12 months. This all may seem pretty straight- That the Senate do now adjourn. forward to most senators, except for the fact Pelham Security that the government has decided to terminate Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (6.57 this contract with effect from 31 March—a p.m.)—I rise tonight in the adjournment decision which is all the more outrageous, debate to discuss a matter which goes to the given that Pelham Security have neither heart of this government’s inability to recog- breached, nor been accused of breaching, their nise the consequences of its decisions on contract at any time. Whilst the contract regional Australia. Over the next few minutes, provides for early termination, what is par- I wish to discuss a matter which, when you ticularly concerning for me is that, for Pelham look at the issues in detail, raises a number of Security to seek just compensation, in accord- questions about the commitment of this ance with section 9.1 of their contract, expen- government to our regions. In doing so, I will sive and resource intensive legal action will highlight the hypocrisy of the government, now be required. who for years have claimed the small business This now takes me to the substance of my constituency as their own and who went to concerns: the failure of the government to the last election promising to give small understand the connection or nexus between 1004 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 decisions such as these and their inevitable continue to demonstrate its complete contempt and exponential impact on employment in for regional Australia. regional Australia. The issue of costs associat- ed with seeking compensation is an important Film Industry one for small business. Pelham Security have Senator PAYNE (New South Wales) (7.02 advised me that, on the basis of this contract, p.m.)—This evening I rise to bring to the business decisions were taken to increase attention of the Senate some of what I believe investment in capital equipment—investment is the very good news in the Australian film that is critically important to regional Austral- industry and arts community, in particular. I ia; investment that, in turn, delivers the jobs think even we allegedly out of touch parlia- growth that regions require to continue to be mentarians manage to recognise that Australia viable in social and economic terms. has a thriving film industry. The decision to make significant invest- In the last two years we have had several ments is a difficult one for most businesses, top Australian films competing at the Cannes but it is particularly difficult for small busi- film festival. In 1996 we were represented by nesses. A situation where a small business can the Quiet Room, Love Serenade, and No Way have its contract cancelled—the carpet pulled to Forget; and two short films, My Film is a out from under them—at any time does not Dog, and Noir. Again in May of last year, augur well for future investment and employ- The Well and the short film Final Cut were ment growth. It is important to remember that, featured at Cannes, while many films were when we look at employment growth, the launched there, including Blackrock, Doing small to medium business sector is the key Time for Patsy Cline, Kiss or Kill and Thank contributor. God He Met Lizzie. The next few weeks will So, in a nutshell, what we have here is a see the launch of the second film of Children government which is gushing in its rhetoric of the Revolution director and university with respect to small business, employment contemporary of mine, Peter Duncan—A growth and regional development. But it is a Little Bit of Soul. government that fails to understand the There are many Australian films in the important role that its expenditure plays in international market which reflect the exciting this cycle of development. range of skill and talent in our film industry. In conclusion, I would like to return to the Many of our film makers and actors have now plight of Pelham Security. It is critical that established outstanding international reputa- the government resolve this matter quickly tions, and a growing number of Australian and with minimal inconvenience to Pelham productions are earning valuable export Security and its staff. Quite apart from the income for this country in a hugely competi- fact that this problem should never have tive industry. I think it is worth noting that occurred in the first place, it is important that women, in particular, in the Australian film the government learn from this case study in industry have been very successful in leading small business insensitivity. the way in recent years. At the highly com- As I mentioned earlier, the contract con- mercial end of proceedings, Australia has seen cerned allows for early termination, but it the success of Mel Gibson at the 1996 Acad- does so in conjunction with clause 9.2, which emy Awards with Braveheart winning the allows for ‘fair and reasonable compensation’. best film and best director; and also, of I urge the government to abide by this clause, course, the highly popular Babe—which was and to do so swiftly. I also urge the govern- filmed in my family’s local area, the Southern ment to move beyond rhetoric and deliver on Highlands—being awarded an Oscar for best its commitment to give small business a fair visual effects. go—and to particularly sort the situation out It is a sign of the growing successes of our with regard to Pelham Security. If it fails to film industry that last year Australian films do so, it will—as far as Mr Pelham, his and film makers received more Academy security firm and myself are concerned— Award nominations than ever before in the Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1005 history of our participation in the industry. Our film and television industry is a power- The crowning glory for many in 1997 was, no house. Indeed, in the last 12 months it has doubt, Geoffrey Rush’s achievements in gone from strength to strength, and there is no Shine, emerging from both the Academy doubt that the Australian film and television Awards and the Golden Globe awards with industry currently enjoys great international the Best Actor award. I note that Geoffrey recognition. Australians are being sought for Rush is also a star of A Little Bit of Soul. their skills in every field of film making— John Seale was also awarded an Oscar for from editing to cinematography to the brave cinematography in The English Patient. new world of multimedia. In December last year, the Australian film While international recognition is important, Road to Nhill won the Best Film category at and in fact crucial, we must never lose sight the Sebrika Film Festival in Greece, following of the importance of the industry to Australia, on from our own AFI award night where Kiss especially to our future on both cultural and or Kill scooped the pool. Australia had four economic fronts. We all know how much ‘road’ movies which particularly featured in pride we take in seeing our nation celebrated last year’s AFI awards—and they could have at film festivals around the globe. We like to been stories from any corner of the globe. But read of high praise for our actors, like LA critics recognise that why they stand out is Confidential stars Russell Crowe and Guy because of a boldness of vision, at times an Pearce in Hollywood; and see script writers almost feral quality, and a confidence in like Laura Jones in so much demand overseas. telling the stories that rejects gimmicks and We do have something unique to offer. The studio compromises. This underscores the world knows it and wants it. reality that our film industry is, by its nature, Last year a Roy Morgan poll found that 88 very independent. Our contemporary films per cent of Australians believe the Australian consistently display richness and diversity, film industry is important in raising both the great self-confidence, and industry depth. general image of Australia and awareness of our country overseas. More importantly, the The knowledge that our film makers can poll also found that 75 per cent of Australians take a risk, can be true to their original believe that films produced by our film vision, means that passions are not left in the industry are equal to, if not better than, those bottom drawer for want of money. Coming made overseas. So faith in the industry and from Sydney as I do, aircraft noise is often a the arts world is solid at home. major issue on our front pages—but the film But it is not an overnight success; it comes The Castle, financed largely by the Frontline from years and years of creative toil. Austral- team, was brought to international prominence ia, many would say, is approaching its finest on front pages in that it was made in only six hour in terms of international profile at least. weeks, for $700,000, and grossed $10.3 Our foray into the next millennium will be a million at the box office. It also picked up a very public one, as the world’s eyes focus on 1997 AFI award for best original screenplay. Sydney during the 2000 Olympics and later Industry investors such as producers, dis- our centenary of federation celebrations. It is tributors, exhibitors and broadcasters are during times of national reflection such as the increasingly sharing the faith, and I think the centenary of federation that we will appreciate passion, of the industry. According to the more than ever the role film plays in captur- Australian Film Commission, investment by ing key moments in a nation’s life. these players rose significantly as a proportion I well remember the film showed earlier of budgets in 1996-97. This is an important this year at the beginning of the women’s sign that we have an industry that can attract constitutional convention—a film about increased revenue from domestic and export federation, which at the time was intended to sales. One must also recognise the role of the depict the process of federation itself but was Film Finance Corporation in facilitating shown at the women’s constitutional conven- increasing levels of industry investment. tion to show the involvement of women in the 1006 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 process. It was a very telling and a very production undertaken in Australia to assist interesting reflection on that period. local industry through skills development and Our ability to critically analyse our history employment, particularly of technical crews. is enhanced by the preservation of the work of previous generations of film and television We are working towards achieving a ma- creators. Clearly, the National Film and Sound ture, dynamic and sustainable film industry. Archive and Film Australia are key players as To this end, we initiated the Gonski inquiry, we celebrate the turn of the century and, in which investigated the operations of the film particular, the documentary will prove to be industry in Australia. The report called for an ideal vehicle for telling our stories. But the new measures to increase private investment reality is that the social documentary is the while retaining direct funding as a principal least commercially viable but one of the most mechanism of government assistance, refine- culturally relevant film genres. Ongoing ment of current Commonwealth film agencies’ market failure and occasionally lack of functions and a changed role for Film Austral- government support could have meant that ia. programs such as Rats in the Ranks and The Year of the Dogs might not have been made. The report was responded to last November. For either football or political followers, we The details of that response are well known, would have been the poorer. but I do want to stress its main points, includ- The government wants as many Australians ing the retention of Film Australia as as possible to enjoy the insights, reflections Commonwealth owned—a vertically integrat- and often unique perspectives that the docu- ed company—and retention of their Lindfield mentary provides. To this end, the Minister facilities; retention of Film Australia’s ar- for Communications, the Information Econ- chives; extension of their national interest omy and the Arts (Senator Alston) announced program until 2003; and the introduction of a in November last year, as part of the new pilot scheme—the film licensed invest- government’s response to the Gonski report, ment scheme—providing a 100 tax concession that we will continue Film Australia’s national to investors in companies which are licensed interest program at current levels of $6.4 to invest in a slate of film and television million per annum from 1999-00 to 2002-03. productions. This will raise concessional Film Australia is the jewel in the documen- capital of up to $20 million a year for two tary crown, through not only the management years from 1998-99. of the national interest program but the marketing and the distribution it undertakes The Gonski model offers an innovative on behalf of other producers; its archives, approach to balancing the needs of govern- described often as Australia’s photo album of ment for efficiency and accountability with more than 80 years of film making; and its the needs of investors for incentives to invest Lindfield site. in Australian film and television. Any oppor- I am also actively pursuing the question of tunities to increase the efficiency of support continued funding of SBSI, the production to industry should be pursued. The FLIC arm of SBS. SBSI is in the rare position of model offers a number of advantages in this being a government funded production arm regard, in particular in terms of transparency, looking for a specific network and audience. accountability and certainty of funding. Because it is audience and topic specific, as well as dedicated to broadening the base of Our response to the report was well re- storytelling on our screens, its programs often ceived as a whole. This is as a reflection of find a much wider audience. the government’s approach to the arts com- Our industry infrastructure, while still being munity and as we see the role of government finetuned, is working well enough to attract not to dictate or impose cultural norms but to international production to our shores. The create an environment which fosters—(Time government recognises the capacity of that expired) Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1007

Mr Edgar Williams years a struggle in the union against Edgar. Even when Clyde entered this parliament, he Mr Maurie Rudd carried it on. He, nevertheless, I am sure, Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) would pay tribute to Edgar’s strength of (7.13 p.m.)—Tonight I rise to say a few character, strength of purpose, and dedication words about the passing of two great figures to working men and women. of the trade union movement. The first person whom I wish to refer to is Edgar Williams, Edgar was honoured with life membership who passed away in December last year. of the AWU, with life membership of the Edgar was a renowned figure in the Austral- Australian Labor Party and as one of the great ian trade union movement, particularly the figures of the Australian trade union move- Australian Workers Union, and the Australian ment. I, as I said, learnt much from Edgar and Labor Party. I certainly pay tribute to his lifelong dedica- tion to his union, the AWU, and to its mem- My colleague Senator John Hogg made a bers. most moving and eloquent speech yesterday in which he recorded the achievements of I also want to record the passing of and Edgar. I compliment John on his remarks. make some comments about another great John, like me, had the great pleasure of trade union official who was very much like knowing Edgar for many years. I certainly Edgar, and that was Maurie Rudd. Maurie endorse Senator Hogg’s remarks yesterday, Rudd was an official of the Federated Iron- but I just want to add a few of my own. workers Association, which in 1993 amalga- mated with the AWU. When Maurie passed I first met Edgar Williams in 1976, when I away on 7 February this year, he also was an commenced employment with the Australian official of the AWU. I think it is probably Workers Union as a junior industrial officer. best if I quote from an article that appeared I was pretty green but I learned quickly, as in the Australian written by a lifelong friend you have to in the world of trade unions and of Maurie Rudd’s, because it sets out far industrial relations. You often find that there better than I can Maurie’s achievements. It are more jobs to be done and causes to fight states: than you have time for. Maurie Rudd was born in Goulburn, NSW, in Edgar Williams was an inspiration to me, 1942, the son of a working-class rural family with as he was indeed to all the officials of the strong labour-movement links. Australian Workers Union for well over 40 years. When I met him, he was the federal He left school at an early age and was largely self-taught, being an avid reader. He held many president of the AWU and the AWU’s repre- jobs, mainly unskilled; he was working in a sentative on the ACTU executive. I attended shearing shed when he first became a member of annual conventions each year after that at the AWU. which Edgar presided as the federal president of the union, up until his retirement in 1982. The similarities with Edgar are very relevant there. It goes on to say: One of Edgar’s great strengths was his ability as chairman of the AWU’s conven- He became a beltman’s assistant in the sinter tions. As I am sure honourable senators would plant at BHP Newcastle steelworks in July 1970. It was a hard and dirty job. He said he took it be aware—if they have not heard it or read because it involved so much overtime and he about it, they could certainly imagine— needed the money for his family. In his time there conventions of the AWU, given the long he saw four men killed at work. The need for history of that union, were often very interest- safety on the job and improved working conditions ing and very fiery occasions. But Edgar had and wages were the motivating factors in his this incredible ability to earn the respect and becoming a steelworkers’ delegate. In June 1985, he became an acting organiser of the Federated the admiration of all of the delegates at those Ironworkers Association. Later that year he became conventions, whether they supported him or a national organiser, was elected as a branch opposed him. This was so much so that I organiser and then became acting assistant secre- think Clyde Cameron carried on for many tary. 1008 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

He was elected branch secretary in 1989, a there was a need to represent workers and did position he held until his death. so; and who also strongly believed in demo- Like Edgar, Maurie had the opportunities to cratic trade unionism, something which become a member of parliament and accept ultimately is a protection for all citizens higher offices. But Maurie, like Edgar, whether they be trade union officials or not. spurned those opportunities and spent his As I have said before, when tyranny raises its entire life working in the trade union move- head, it is very often the trade union move- ment for his fellow working men. He also was ment, along with the churches, that are first active in the Australian Labor Party and attacked and silenced. People like Edgar played a notable role in that regard, particu- Williams and Maurie Rudd were great Aus- larly in the Newcastle region. tralians who achieved much for their fellow The sad part about Maurie Rudd, but Australians. (Time expired) nevertheless it is something that demonstrates Senator Bolkus his strength of character, relates to the fact Senator ABETZ (Tasmania) (7.23 p.m.)— that, when BHP announced last year that it Yesterday, the Senate passed an historic would close the Newcastle steelworks, Maurie censure of a shadow minister—the shadow was once again called to action. He took up Attorney-General, Senator Bolkus. The cen- the challenge and led the campaign by the sure was based on Senator Bolkus knowingly workers at BHP in Newcastle and the citizens and deliberately revealing to members of the of Newcastle to face that shock announcement media the contents of a confidential Federal by BHP. It came very much like an earth- Court document, putting at risk the taxpayer- quake to Newcastle. He led delegations down funded pursuit of Mr Skase’s assets. This here to Canberra to lobby the Prime Minister action is in breach of any code of acceptable and other politicians to do something on conduct. The shadow Attorney-General—the behalf of Newcastle so that we would not see would-be first law officer of this country— that great industrial city die. deliberately and knowingly revealed sensitive But, whilst he was doing that, whilst he was information from a confidential court docu- spending 24 hours a day seeking to represent ment. his members and the people of Newcastle, he In the unlikely event that Labor wins the was dying of lung cancer and was receiving next election, we now know the standards Mr chemotherapy treatment. He carried on Beazley will set for his ministry. If Senator throughout that campaign, notwithstanding the Bolkus were to become Attorney-General, he great illness that he was suffering. I know that would deal with confidential and sensitive the workers of Newcastle and the members of matters every day. Indeed, he would have his union are proud of his dedication and his carriage of the Skase matter as Attorney- work on their behalf in that dispute. General. He would thereby become privy to Both Edgar Williams and Maurie Rudd the actions being taken against Mr Skase. And were big men in size. They were big in heart what would he do? If he saw a short-sighted and they made big achievements throughout political benefit in revealing certain infor- their working lives. They were big Austral- mation, Senator Bolkus, by his actions, has ians. I think it is appropriate that we record in revealed he would have no compunction this parliament their achievements on behalf about revealing it to the media. And Mr of their fellow working men and women. Beazley, by allowing Senator Bolkus to Whilst I note that quite often members of remain in the Attorney-General portfolio, is the coalition take great delight in attacking also saying that he would condone such the trade union movement and trade union behaviour. leaders, I would ask, in closing, that maybe This lack of commitment to any standards they pause a while and read and examine the by Mr Beazley has exposed Mr Beazley’s stories of people like Edgar Williams and weakness as leader which, in itself, is another Maurie Rudd—people who started their lives issue of standards aside from the scurrilous in poverty or in hard times; who saw that activities of the rusty pipe opposite. It is in Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1009 that light that Labor’s attack on the Minister and incorporate into Hansard an anomaly, as for Resources and Energy has been so duplici- I see it, within the diesel fuel rebate scheme. tous. It is also in that light that I express my There was at first a tax on petrol in 1929 that regret that the media has seen fit to publicise had nothing to do with the Depression but and peddle the Labor-orchestrated campaign certainly did not assist it. The first diesel fuel against the minister for resources and largely tax was imposed in 1957, and it was imposed remain silent in relation to the overwhelming as a measure against road-using vehicles only. vote of censure against a shadow minister for It was never intended for that to be used for his unacceptable conduct, his failure to resign any vehicles or engines or other mode of and his failure to be sacked. consumption of diesel off road. It was always These are matters of genuine public interest. envisaged that mining, agriculture, forestry The public do have a right to know and the and the fishing industries would be exempted. media has failed in its duty. In saying that the Without that exemption, some businesses media failed, I trust this silence was not to would surely close and would close in the protect a person who has gained an unenvi- immediate and medium term. able record around this place for giving The survivors would endure some hard- unauthorised information to the media. As one ship—and there is no argument against that. member of the media is reputed to have said, Australia would experience a significant short- ‘We won’t bite the hand that feeds us.’ That term drop in income, plus a diminution of type of cynicism is regrettable and, I trust, is expenditure outlays. Australian shares and not widespread, let alone the reason for this stocks would certainly drop. Future explor- strange silence. ation, on which this country so vitally de- pends for its standard of living, would be I ask my friends in the media to look inhibited, and low-grade mining ventures through their records and then their con- would also close or at least be curtailed. sciences, and see how much coverage they Certainly, we would lose overseas markets gave to the Senate’s vote of condemnation— and an imposition of excise would, by all not censure—of a Liberal opposition back- reasonable economic measures, be revenue bencher three years ago for his inadvertent— neutral in those cases. and I stress inadvertent—disclosure of a tax file number—something he did, might I add, Western Australia is the biggest per capita by leave granted to him by a Labor senator. user or consumer of diesel and heavy fuel in Or they might search their records and then the nation. It is, paradoxically, the biggest their consciences as to their actions when a producer now of petroleum and petroleum and Liberal frontbencher in opposition unwittingly gas products. National export income totals divulged confidential information in the about 30 per cent from Western Australia. So Hindmarsh Island matter. that ties the economy of Australia in very real terms to the health of Western Australia. Yesterday’s vote was not only historic in itself; it was an overwhelming vote of censure Western Australia is by far the biggest for the unparalleled and unprincipled release mining state in the nation. It happens to have of confidential court documents by the alter- within its boundaries the biggest diamond nate Attorney-General. This breach of stand- mine in the world, mining some 38 million ards, on any objective analysis, was worthy of carats in the last complete fiscal year. It at least equal to, if not greater than, time and mines 80 per cent of Australia’s gold. It has space in the media as the scurrilous accusa- the biggest iron ore mines in the world. It is tions being made against the minister for the biggest producer and exporter of alumina resources. I do not seek special treatment for powder in the world. It produces more heavy my party, just equal treatment. mineral sands, particularly ilmenite, from which it produces synthetic rutile, in the Diesel Fuel Rebate world. Senator LIGHTFOOT (Western Australia) If we recognise that, we must surely recog- (7.27 p.m.)—I want to spend a few moments nise that other aspects of mining in Western 1010 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

Australia are very important to the mining Dampier Salt is also in Western Australia. industry. I speak specifically of the mining of At the risk of bragging once again, it is the limestone in Western Australia. Limestone biggest solar operation in the southern hemi- throughout Australia is a fundamental part of sphere. Although it harvests the salt, Dampier mining and a fundamental part of the steel Salt is subject to the diesel fuel rebate and building industry. Some of the producers scheme. It is not a tax that they should pay. of limestone in Australia are Swan Portland It was never imposed and never meant to be Cement Ltd, Adelaide Brighton Cement Ltd, a tax and it should not be seen as such. But Blue Circle Southern Cement Ltd, Lime Dampier Salt is allowed to windrow its Industries Pty Ltd, David Mitchell (NSW) Pty sodium chloride. It is allowed to pick up the Ltd, Cockburn Cement Ltd, Pacific Lime, sodium chloride in mechanical harvesters, Northern Cement Ltd, BHP Steel, Queensland load it on to trucks and take it to a stockpile Cement, Amalg Resources of Kalgoorlie and where it dries out, because it is quite wet. Westlime (WA) Ltd. That part of the operation is subject to the rebate. But once the stockpile is taken from Limestone, regrettably, initially did not the same mining lease to the wharf for export, attract the diesel fuel rebate. An appeal was that is not subject to the diesel fuel rebate. made to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and it found, not illogically, that the mining These are some areas in our mining indus- of limestone was, in fact, mining, and they try on which this country depends for its reinstated the diesel fuel rebate to the lime- standard of living, for its wealth, for its value stone miners. However, with bureaucracy added and for its employment. We should gone mad, I believe, in this instance, the look to enhance that, not to inhibit it. Any tax Australian Customs Service has now appealed on the mining industry is a tax on exports. that decision and the limestone producers in That is something that I find convoluted and Australia are now awaiting the outcome of not in the best interests of Australia. that decision. Justice, it would seem, is not Thirty per cent of diesel is used on roads quick and is certainly not cheap. I do not but 70 per cent is used off roads in the want to take the issue too far but I do ap- mining industry, the farming industry and the preciate the time and the forum of this cham- fishing industry, et cetera. We should make ber to bring it to the attention of members this uniform within the mining industry. I here—those members who are diehard and believe it is an anomaly to attempt to exclude left here. I appreciate the three who are in the the limestone extractors. I appreciate having chamber tonight. the time to draw this to the Senate’s attention. In the few minutes left, I wish to give an I trust that those people who are responsible example of two areas that I believe are for the Australian Customs Service will let a wrong. The mining of marble in Australia is little logic apply and consider the mining of considered to be mining, yet marble is pre- limestone mining. dominantly, if not exclusively, calcium car- Senator Denman—Madam Acting Deputy bonate. Limestone is calcium carbonate, yet President, I just ask for a point of clarifica- the Australian Customs Service, which I think tion. Senator Lightfoot asked for permission is an anomaly—the last word is anyway—has to incorporate. Is that from the document he said that it is not; it is an extractive industry. has just quoted from? Extractive industries in the United Kingdom, for instance, are classified as miners or miners The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT are classified in the United Kingdom exclu- (Senator Patterson)—Senator Lightfoot said, sively as extractive industries. Why there ‘I wish to incorporate.’ I think he meant that should be a distinction drawn between the he wished to put it on the record. He used mining of marble and the mining of its cous- ‘incorporate’ in a way that means something in, its very close relation, limestone, I do not special to us in the Senate. I do not think he know, but I would be very interested to find wanted to incorporate a document. out. Senate adjourned at 7.36 p.m. Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1011

DOCUMENTS Primary Industries Levies and Charges Collection Act and National Residue Survey (Aquatic Tabling Animal Export) Levy Act—Regulations— The following documents were tabled by Statutory Rules 1998 No. 30. the Clerk: Public Service Act—Senior Executive Service Retirement on Benefit Determinations 1998/10- Civil Aviation Act— 1998/19. Civil Aviation Regulations—Civil Aviation Social Security Act—Pension Loans Scheme Orders—Exemptions Nos CASA 07/1998 and (Social Security)—Rate of Compound Interest CASA 08/1998. Determination No. 2 of 1997. Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 Nos 31 and Veterans’ Entitlements Act—Pension Loans 32. Scheme (Veterans’ Entitlements)—Rate of Coarse Grains Levy Act—Regulations—Statutory Compound Interest Determination No. 2 of 1997. Rules 1998 No. 28. Customs Act—Instrument of Approval No. 39 of Indexed Lists of Files 1997. The following documents were tabled Extradition Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules pursuant to the order of the Senate of May 1998 No. 27. 1996: Judges’ Pensions Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 25. Indexed lists of departmental and agency files for the period 1 July to 31 December 1997— Employment Services Act—Employment Ser- vices (Case Management Documents) Determina- Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres tion, No. 1 of 1998. Strait Islander Studies. Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act— Australian Institute of Marine Science. Regulations—Statutory Rules 1998 No. 26. Australian Sports Drug Agency. National Residue Survey Administration Act and Department of the Treasury. National Residue Survey (Aquatic Animal International Air Services Commission. Export) Levy Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules Office of the Commonwealth Ombudsman. 1998 No. 29. Treasury portfolio agencies. 1012 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Electromagnetic Radiation communications radiofrequencies". These fields included Epidemiology, Cancer Biology, Physical (Question No. 1008) Dosimetry and Nuclear Medicine. Senator Allison asked the Minister for The Committee co-Chairs, with Secretariat assist- Communications and the Arts, upon notice, ance, initially investigated membership, with final on 26 November 1997: membership endorsed by the SRDC at its Septem- ber 1997 meeting. With reference to the $4.5 million set aside by the department for research into electromagnetic (2) Members of the NHMRC EME Expert radiation and public health: Committee were appointed on the basis of their widely recognised expertise in areas of science (1) By what process does the National Health relevant to the responsibilities of the NHMRC in and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) select managing the EME research program. members to the committee of experts involved in the dissemination of funds to prospective research- (3) The Committee currently consists of: Dr ers in this area. Donald Cameron (Co-Chair); Prof Judith Black (Co-Chair); Prof Bruce Armstrong; Prof Tony (2) What are the selection criteria for admission Basten; Prof Annette Dobson; Dr Alan Harris; Dr onto the committee. Ken Joyner; Dr Frederick Khafagi; Dr Keith Lokan; (3) Who is currently on the committee. Prof Colin Thompson. (4) How often and when does the committee (4) The Committee meets on an ad hoc basis, as meet. required. Meetings to date have been held in (5) Does the NHMRC have any policy concern- October and December 1997, with a further meet- ing membership on selection committees that deal ing anticipated around May/June 1998. with dissemination of funds for research into (5) The NHMRC has well established conflict of industry issues of people who are concurrently interest guidelines for a range of situations. These employed by the same industry. include a requirement for "Disclosure of interests" Senator Alston—The answer to the honour- section 29 (1-5) of the NHMRC Act 1992. In addition, each Committee develops its own, more able senator’s question is as follows: specific guidelines designed to optimise the range The $4.5 million RF EME program comprises an and level of expert advice while removing influen- Australian research program, managed by the ces from conflicts of interest in committee mem- NHMRC, participation in the World Health bers. For example, these principles may include Organisations’ EMF Project and a public informa- that—no scientific collaborator or departmental tion program. colleague of an applicant is called upon to assess The Office of NHMRC, within the Department a grant application. of Health and Family Services has advised that: The SRDC has developed conflict of interest (1) The NHMRC EME Expert Committee is a guidelines for the NHMRC EME Expert Commit- sub-Committee of the Strategic Research Develop- tee. The guidelines apply to all members of the ment Committee (SRDC), which is a Principal NHRMC EME Expert Committee. All members Committee of the National Health and Medical have declared their actual or potential conflicts of Research Council. The Expert Committee was interest. This is an ongoing requirement for the established by the SRDC to oversee all aspects of term of the membership. An excerpt of the EME the research process. The SRDC, at its meeting in procedures regarding conflict of interest follows: July 1997, selected two SRDC members to co- - In the case of direct pecuniary interest, mem- Chair the EME Expert Committee. bers may not take part in any decision to The first step in the nomination process for the which the potential conflict of direct pecuniary Expert Committee was to determine health and interest applies, and must physically absent professional fields relevant to the issues identified themselves from all or any part of a formal in the document developed by the Committee on meeting or other discussion at which the Electromagnetic Energy Public Health Issues titled matter in question is being discussed. "Strategy for an Australian research program into - Where there is a potential indirect pecuniary possible health issues associated with exposure to or non-pecuniary interest, the Chair of the Thursday, 12 March 1998 SENATE 1013

Expert Committee, in consultation with the bacco advertising; if so, can the data be made other uninvolved members of the Expert available. Committee, will determine the extent to which (9) Has the Government collected data on the a member may be involved in the discussion way in which tobacco advertising at previous or decision concerning the matter involving the events has been used in the print and electronic potential conflict of interest. media during the event and subsequently; if so, can Australian Grand Prix: Tobacco such data be made available. Advertising Senator Herron—The Minister for Health (Question No. 1067) and Family Services has provided the follow- ing answer to the honourable Senator’s ques- Senator Allison asked the Minister repre- tion: senting the Minister for Health and Family (1) The report in the Age on 28 June 1997 that Services, upon notice, on 9 February 1998: the Federal Government would continue to exempt With reference to the report in the Age on 28 the Melbourne Formula One Grand Prix from June 1997 that the Federal Government would section 18 of the Tobacco Advertising Prohibition continue to exempt the Melbourne Formula One Act 1992 is not accurate. Grand Prix from section 18 of the Tobacco Adver- Decisions in relation to any future event are tising Prohibition Act 1992: made in accordance with the Tobacco Advertising (1) Was this an accurate report of the Prohibition Act 1992 and the Guidelines which Government’s intention; if so, was the Government were tabled in June 1993. Each decision is made on at that time satisfied that failure to specify the a case by case basis. event would be likely to result in the event not The report also states that seven events are now being held in Australia. exempt from the ban. This is also not accurate. An (2) (a) On what date was an application made to event may have been granted an exemption for the Federal Government by the Australian Grand 1997, however, an exemption in one year provides Prix Corporation for an exemption from section 18 no guarantee of an exemption in the following year. of the Tobacco Advertising Prohibition Act 1992 At the time of the report of the Age in June for the purposes of the proposed event in March 1997, the Government was satisfied that failure to 1988; and (b) can a copy of the application be specify the 1997 event that had been held earlier in made available. the year would have been likely to result in the (3) (a) When will the exemption be granted; (b) event not being held in Australia. what conditions will apply to the exemption and (2) (a) The Australian Grand Prix Corporation’s can a copy be made available; (c) will tobacco application for the March 1998 event was dated 5 companies be permitted to use the image of a November 1997 and received by the Minister for kangaroo in their advertising at this event; (d) on Health and Family Services on 7 November 1997. what basis exactly was the Minister’s opinion (b) A copy of the application cannot be made formed that the event would be lost; (e) whose available as the application was submitted on a views were canvassed in forming that opinion; and confidential basis and contains sensitive commer- (f) can copies be provided of relevant material in cial information. forming this opinion. (3) (a) An exemption for the 1998 Australian (4) Is the Minister aware that Oxford University Formula One Grand Prix was granted on 4 Februa- will be sponsoring a team in the British Silverstone ry 1998. Grand Prix in place of tobacco advertising. (b) The exemption and the conditions which (5) (a) What evidence is there that alternatives to apply to the exemption were published in the tobacco advertising revenue are not also available Commonwealth of Australia Special Gazette No. S in Australia; and (b) can such evidence by provid- 51, Monday, 9 February 1998. A copy is attached. ed. (c) The use of the image of a kangaroo in adver- (6) Is the Minister aware that Belgium has, in the tising by particular companies is a commercial past 12 months, refused to allow tobacco adver- decision which is not covered by the Tobacco tising at its Grand Prix. Advertising Prohibition Act 1992. It is not a matter (7) Has the Government acquainted itself with over which the Minister for Health and Family the latest status of tobacco advertising permissible Services has any control. at such events in other countries; if so, can the data (d) As required by the legislation and the Guide- be made available. lines, the Minister took into account (a) whether the (8) Has the Government collected data on the organisation responsible for allocating the event is conditions set by other countries which permit to- not located in Australia (b) if other countries are 1014 SENATE Thursday, 12 March 1998 eligible to hold the event, the strength of their ralian Grand Prix Corporation. Any possible claims to do so, and (c) other information the availability of an alternative to tobacco advertising Minister felt relevant in determining the likelihood revenue does not of itself guarantee that Australia that the event would not be held in Australia. would continue to be granted the right to host a Given that the information provided in the round of the Formula One Championship. application in relation to these matters is commer- The information provided in applications is cial-in-confidence, the details cannot be revealed. submitted in commercial-in-confidence and thus not The Minister was satisfied that the event was an available. event of international significance which would be lost to Australia if an exemption was not granted. (6) The Minister is aware that Belgium has, in the past 12 months, refused to allow tobacco adver- (e) The Minister took into account all of the tising at its Grand Prix. material submitted by applicant which included information provided by the overseas promoters. (7) The Government has acquainted itself with (f) Copies cannot be provided of relevant materi- the latest status of tobacco advertising permissible al in forming this opinion given that the application at Grands Prix in other countries. and discussion of the contents of the application is (8) The Government has not collected data on the commercial-in-confidence. conditions set at each Grand Prix by each of the (4) The Minister was not aware that Oxford countries which hold such events and which permit University will be sponsoring a team in the British tobacco advertising, but it has collected data on the Silverstone Grand Prix in place of tobacco advertis- type and level of tobacco advertising restrictions in ing. each of these countries. This data can be made (5) In assessing applications under section 18, the available. Minister requests applicants to provide evidence (9) The tobacco advertising that has appeared in that they have sought alternative sponsorship. the print and electronic media during or subsequent With respect to the Australian Formula One to previous Australian Formula One Grands Prix Grand Prix, sponsorship arrangements are con- has either been permitted by the exemption apply- trolled by the international event organisers or ing to the event or has been accidentally or inciden- promoters, not the local event organiser, the Aust- tally present during coverage of the event.