Monday Volume 587 3 November 2014 No. 54

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 3 November 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 519 3 NOVEMBER 2014 520

rather than a working household. We have almost become House of Commons blasé about new record falls in unemployment month after month. That is the key to our drive to tackle Monday 3 November 2014 poverty. Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I ask the Minister The House met at half-past Two o’clock this week to support the living wage campaign in his own Department. Can he tell the House how many contracted-out workers outside London in his Department PRAYERS have yet to receive the living wage?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Steve Webb: The right hon. Gentleman deserves great credit for his promotion of the living wage. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State inherited a situation in which some of the Department’s employees were not Oral Answers to Questions receiving the living wage. Our Department has committed to it, and we have had that dialogue with our subcontractors as well.

WORK AND PENSIONS Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I also welcome the rise in the living wage announced today. The Minister will be aware that jobseeker’s allowance claimant numbers The Secretary of State was asked— are falling across the board in every single constituency Working Families (Benefits) in the north-east, and by 31% in my Hexham constituency over the last year. Does he agree with me that coming 1. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): off JSA and into employment is surely the way forward? What assessment his Department has made of the effects on working families of recent changes to the Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is quite right. It is level of benefits. [905803] entirely welcome that we are ensuring not only that more people get into work, but that work pays through The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): Since the the universal credit reform, which this coalition Government financial crash of 2008, while average wages have risen are proud to have introduced. by around 10%, working age benefits have risen by around 20%—a sign of our commitment to those who Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): According to are most vulnerable, despite the black hole in the public the Government’s own figures, 20% of working people finances that we inherited. in my constituency earn less than the living wage, yet they will lose hundreds of pounds a year through this Chi Onwurah: In their relentless demonisation of Government’s freeze in working tax credit. How does those on benefits, this Government forget to say that that possibly reward people who want to work, and how only 3% of welfare spending goes on benefits to the can the Minister justify that when the Government give unemployed, and a half of all those in poverty are in tax cuts to the wealthy? working households. In the north-east, working people are £1,800 worse off per year since this Government Steve Webb: The largest number of people who have came to power, and a quarter of a million of them do benefited most from tax cuts during this Government not even get the living wage. Now the Minister decides are those who are in work and paying income tax. to freeze working tax credits. Why is he balancing the Under this Government, a typical basic rate taxpayer is books on the backs of the working people? £800 a year better off in cash terms as a result of our changes to the personal income tax allowance, and over Steve Webb: It is difficult to know which of those 3.2 million individuals will have been taken out of dubious assertions to choose from that question. income tax altogether. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady asks which one is dubious. She says that 3% of what she calls welfare spending goes Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): to the unemployed—[Interruption]—goes on benefits to Harrogate borough is part of the roll-out of universal the unemployed, so she presumably counts state pensions credit, and the feedback from jobseekers and employers as welfare spending. I do not. has been universally positive. Will the Minister explain a bit more about the benefits to the UK economy as a Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I whole when this roll-out is completed? welcome the news that over the last 12 months we have seen the largest annual fall in unemployment since Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is quite right that the records began. Does the Minister share my view that early indications from those receiving universal credit the best way out of poverty is through sustainable have been positive, in line with the expectations of my employment and a regular pay packet—something enjoyed right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. We are designing by an extra 847 of my constituents since January 2013? the system to be simpler for people and to make sure that when they take work, work pays. Already those on Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is quite right. We know the front line who are working with unemployed people that the risk of a child, for example, being in poverty is are welcoming the new freedoms universal credit gives three times as great if they are in a workless household them to support people back to work. 521 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 522

Welfare Reforms (Economy) Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): As my right hon. Friend will know, the benefit cap is encouraging 2. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): What some people to move out of London, where rents are assessment he has made of the effect of his welfare high, to areas such as Clacton and Thanet. Does he reforms on the economy. [905804] agree that local councils should be able to act to discourage benefit migration of that kind? The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith): Our reforms are having a very positive Mr Duncan Smith: There has been very little movement impact on the economy, as my hon. Friend has seen. of more than about five miles from people’s existing The deficit is down by more than a third, and we are at a homes as a result of the benefit cap. Most people have record level of employment. Recent statistics have shown settled, and many—two thirds—have either gone back that both the number and rate of workless households to work or found alternative employment. Let me say to is at a record low, too—the lowest since 1996. the hon. Gentleman that there is something called the discretionary housing payment, and his local council, like any other, can make decisions about how it modifies David T. C. Davies: May I commend my right hon. the process. It is up to councils to do that, and we leave Friend on these reforms, which as he said have led to it with them. record falls in unemployment while also cutting the deficit? Does he agree with me that all of this is threatened Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The flagship of by the policies suggested by Labour Members, who welfare reform was supposed to be universal credit. The caused the financial chaos that we have had to deal with Secretary of State’s former adviser told Radio 4 last in the first place? week that the Secretary of State had known that the project was going badly wrong since May 2012, but he Mr Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely continued to tell the House that it was “exactly on right. It is worth highlighting one particularly revealing track”. The Chair of the Public Accounts Committee set of figures. For workless households, both the number expects IT write-offs to exceed half a billion pounds and the rate are at record lows: 3.3 million and 15.9% after the election. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s are the lowest since ’96. Children in workless households estimate? number 1.5 million, at a rate of 12.7%—again, the lowest on record. Under Labour, some 2 million children Mr Duncan Smith: Yet again, the right hon. Gentleman lived in workless households. That is now collapsing, has got his facts completely wrong. The reality is that, thanks to the work we are doing. Labour’s plans would as was announced only a few weeks ago, universal only return us to the bad old days. credit is not only doing well, but is to be rolled out nationally. The right hon. Gentleman may be smiling John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Why because he has the idea that Labour might somehow get are jobcentre staff being told to say to people “We are into government, and might inherit a success. I can tell not here to help you to find work; we are simply here to him that Labour will not get into government, but check that you do it for yourself”? universal credit will get more people back to work. It is already the case that it will give the economy net benefits Mr Duncan Smith: I do not believe that that is correct. of more than £30 billion, and there will be direct I have the highest respect for the people who man benefits of some £9 billion a year as a direct result of jobcentres all over the country, and who do a remarkable the roll-out that we are planning successfully. job in helping many of those who have fallen out of work to get back into it. Jobcentre staff now tell people Stephen Timms: According to page 34 of the that their own job is to help them to find and take work, “21st Century Welfare” Green Paper, but that they themselves have a responsibility to do “The IT changes that would be necessary to deliver” whatever is necessary to find work and take it. Their job universal credit is a combination of helping people and ensuring that they perform their task of seeking work and taking it. I “would not constitute a major IT project.” am sure that, actually, the right hon. Gentleman agrees Is not the problem—as I pointed out to him at the that that is the right thing to do. time—that the Secretary of State failed to grasp the scale of the undertaking at the outset, and that hundreds Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What assessment of millions of pounds have been wasted as a result? has my right hon. Friend undertaken of economies similar to ours that have ducked the challenge of welfare Mr Duncan Smith: Again, the right hon. Gentleman reform, and of how their economic performance compares is wrong. No money has been wasted. The roll-out with ours? means that, with all the work that we are doing, the vast majority is reusable through the digital system. I should Mr Duncan Smith: We do not need to go very far to be happy to invite him into my office to discuss the see the country that the Opposition held up as the issue; the door has always been open to him. paragon of virtue in the European Union. It is, of Let me also say this, however. I wish that the Opposition course, France. I should point out that the French would stop trying to play silly games and would recognise pursued the policies that the present Opposition think that this benefit, which is now being rolled out successfully are right for the British economy. Adult unemployment and whose national roll-out has been announced, will in France is at record, scorchingly high levels, and youth be a massive benefit for those who are seeking work and unemployment is far higher than it has ever been in this those who are in work. It is time that the Opposition sat country, while it is falling here. down with jobseekers and those who run the jobcentres, 523 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 524 and got their story straight. The hon. Member for errant non-resident fathers vigorously enough? As he Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) spent about half an hour in knows, my constituent Lisa Jones, a hard-working single a jobcentre, and then disappeared without talking to mother, has been totally frustrated by the lackadaisical anyone there. attitude of the Child Support Agency in tracking down the father, despite knowing his mother’s address, when Child Poverty he owes £23,000 and she has been struggling on tax credits and housing benefits to bring up a teenage boy 3. Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): If while the father takes exotic holidays and avoids court his Department will make an assessment of the orders. Will the right hon. Gentleman stop his weasel- potential effect on child poverty of a two-year freeze in worded replies to me and sort this matter out now? benefits. [905805] Mr Duncan Smith: I completely agree that in the right The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain hon. Gentleman’s individual case, which I do know Duncan Smith): Under this Government, the number of about and I recognise, that money should go to the children in relative poverty has fallen by 300,000. The parent with care. We fully agree with that and the CSA, Government have no plans to make any further assessment part of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement of this kind. Such an assessment would only be provided Commission, is bearing down to try and get the details in reference to Government policy. of this individual. As he knows, this case is a little complicated because the individual moves time and Rushanara Ali: The End Child Poverty coalition recently again before the agencies can get hold of him, but I have found that almost half of all children in my constituency to say that I have already intervened by talking to them now live in poverty. Of the 2.6 million children living in about this, and I promise the right hon. Gentleman this, poverty across the UK, two thirds rely on tax credits and ask him to pass this on to his constituent: I personally and in-work benefits. How does the Minister square will take direct interest in this because it is outrageous that with the recent changes to benefits, which are going that this individual gets away with what he is doing. I to make matters worse, and is he today redefining have told the CMEC that it must bear down on these poverty? cases. The reforms we are bringing in will do just that, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman can reassure his Mr Duncan Smith: I am interested in the hon. Lady’s constituent that we will sort this out. question because in the report Alan Milburn brought out as part of his commission he recommended that we should Mr Speaker: There will be a further report to the House on the matter in due course. I am quite confident “supplement the existing child poverty targets with new measures to give a more rounded picture of those in poverty”, of that. and I agree with that. That is what we have set out to do. We took a consultation, and we are now considering Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Can my that consultation and we will be bringing forward right hon. Friend confirm that, in spite of what Opposition recommendations. Members say, relative child poverty has fallen by 300,000 under this Government since 2010? May I just say to the hon. Lady, however, that many of the forecasts about child poverty proved to be wrong? Child poverty has actually fallen, and, interestingly, I Mr Duncan Smith: Yes, and it is something the notice that the figures for her area show that Tower Opposition do not really want to talk about. The forecast Hamlets has seen the largest fall of any local authority was that it would rise. In fact, it has come down. It is in England, down 7.1%, and down 9.6% since 2010 for also important to recognise that nearly 400,000 fewer those on tax credits and below the poverty line. children now live in workless households and that the proportion of children on free school meals getting five Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I am sure that good GCSEs is up from 31% under the last Government when I voted for the welfare cap I was surrounded in the to 38% as of a year ago. Division Lobby by large numbers of Labour Members of Parliament. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Jobseeker’s Allowance (Bury North) one can only have an effective welfare cap, and cap the welfare bill, if benefits do not rise faster than wages? 4. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): How many people are claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Bury Mr Duncan Smith: My right hon. Friend is absolutely North constituency. [905806] right and he is approaching this from the logical perspective, which is that we have a responsibility to make sure that the economy is in balance, that we get the deficit down The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): The and that we are able to afford what we want to do to number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in support the most vulnerable. What the Opposition fail Bury North was 1,304 in September, a fall of more than to recognise time and again is that the economy that 500 people since 2010. they left in a totally wrecked position has got to be sorted out; we cannot just go spending what we do not Mr Nuttall: I thank my right hon. Friend for that earn. answer. Does she agree that this fall in unemployment has not happened by accident? It has only happened Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Will the right hon. because this Government have cut tax and red tape on Gentleman accept that children are also being pushed businesses, giving them the confidence to grow and take into poverty because his Department is not pursuing on new employees? 525 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 526

Esther McVey: My hon. Friend is quite right. The been assessed as being too severely disabled or too ill to latest reports from the British Chambers of Commerce be ready to work. I was grateful for the Minister’s letter, show that businesses are feeling more confident and are which I received this morning, assuring me that that did taking on more people. In the north-west, an additional not reflect Government policy. I am sure he will want to 109,000 people are in work this year. He knows only too place that on record in the Chamber now. However, well how important it is to get a job that can lead to Ministers are in trouble with employment and support career progression. He is a working-class Tory who got allowance. Over the course of this Parliament, it is himself into a job, did a correspondence course in law likely to have a cumulative cost of £8 billion more than and then set up his own legal practice. We want those they had planned. The Office for Budget Responsibility opportunities for everyone. has also sounded the alarm, saying that “spending would remain higher…because of delays to the work Employment and Support Allowance capability assessment programme”, which puts the Government’s own annually managed 5. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): What expenditure cap at risk. Will the Minister guarantee change there has been in the number of people that there will be no cut, now or in the future, to the claiming employment and support allowance over the benefits on which disabled people rely, in order to pay last two years. [905807] for the Government’s policy failures?

The Minister of State, Department for Work and Mr Harper: I am glad that the hon. Lady has referred Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): Based on the latest published to the letter I sent her, because it confirms that the BBC national statistics, as at February 2014 there were report 2.46 million people on employment and support allowance “does not reflect Government policy.” and incapacity benefits, a fall of 98,000 from February It also makes the point that we have seen 2012. “a fall in out of work benefit numbers of 832,000 since 2010—the total is now below 4 million, the lowest figure since 1990”, Sheila Gilmore: I thank the Minister for his reply. Since the incapacity benefits migration started, 250,000 IB that incapacity benefit numbers have fallen by 98,000, and claimants have been found fit for work, yet he is now that the spend on incapacity benefits has also fallen by telling us that the total number has fallen by only about £1 billion in real terms between 2009-10 and 2013-14. 90,000. That might explain why the Office for Budget Responsibility is forecasting that spending on incapacity Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I thank the benefit alone will rise by £3 billion more than the Minister for his comment that the mooted cut was not Government expected in 2010. Is it not time that the Government policy. Can he reassure me and others that Minister and his colleagues realised that, despite all it will not become Government policy and that he will the rhetoric, many people are not fit for work and that not consider making cuts in that area? People who are the necessary support is not there for those who do unwell or disabled often face additional costs to those want to work? faced by everyone else.

Mr Harper: I would point out to the hon. Lady that Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman talks about disabled we have had some problems with the work capability people having higher costs; he is obviously talking assessment—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] Before Opposition about the personal independence payment, which is the Members jeer, they should remember that this has happened help we give to people to help them to stay or become under the provider that the previous Government appointed. independent. The BBC report was talking about We have taken action to sort the problems out, and employment and support allowance, which is an out-of- Atos has agreed to exit from its contract. From 1 March work benefit. next year, the new provider that I appointed last week, Maximus, will be taking over and will do a better job. Employment (Young People) Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I welcome the Government’s decision to introduce a new provider. 6. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What support The Minister has just confirmed that it was the previous his Department has provided for young people seeking Government who appointed Atos. Can he explain how employment. [905808] the new provision will be materially different from the outgoing arrangements? The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): In the past 12 months, youth unemployment has fallen by a Mr Harper: Yes, I can. I have taken a close interest in record-breaking 253,000. This Government have developed the contracting process, and we have learned from the an array of support for young people including: work previous experience. We are confident, given the bid experience, sector-based work academies, traineeships, that Maximus put together and the successful contracts the Work programme and increasing apprenticeship that it has operated in Australia, Canada and the United numbers. States of America, that it will be able to deliver the assessments competently over the next three years. Andrew Stephenson: I thank the Minister for her answer. Youth unemployment in my constituency has Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Last halved since 2012. I recently visited my local Asda in week, the BBC reported that Ministers were considering Colne to see the work it is doing with local jobcentres. cutting employment and support allowance for those in What more can my right hon. Friend offer to end youth the work-related activity group—that is, those who have unemployment in Pendle? 527 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 528

Esther McVey: My hon. Friend is doing a lot locally 10,000 young people had actually completed the 26 weeks to help people into work. He has had three job fairs so on the programme. Will she tell the House what went far, and is soon to have a fourth. It is by working with wrong? business, as he is doing in his constituency and we are doing nationally, that we have businesses and trade Esther McVey: What I will do is tell the House what associations engaged in running programmes such as went right, as that is what people want to know. We movement to work and feeding Britain’s future. All such have a record number of young people in work. We had initiatives are giving young people opportunities to a £1 billion Youth Contract, within which was an array move into work. We are not complacent, and recognise of different opportunities—work experience, sector-based that there is more we can do. We are looking to create work academies and wage incentives. Working with an extra 3 million apprenticeships in the next Parliament businesses, we found that work experience, sector-based to ensure that we have full employment for young work academies and apprenticeships were the things people. that they want, and they are the ones offering the jobs. We have seen 40,000 young people—not 10,000 young Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The people—start in that way. We have redeployed the money Minister sounds so plausible and she has oh so many from the Youth Contract to areas where it will be most skills learned in the television trade, but she should pick effective. The situation is far from what the hon. Gentleman up the Local Government Association report that said outlined, as what we are doing is working. that so many young people in this country are being badly served and that there will be 2 million of them Personal Independence Payments unemployed or under-employed in the next few years because the model that we have for helping young 7. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/ people is not fit for purpose and that after four and a Co-op): What the average waiting time is for an half years she has done very little about it. assessment for personal independence payment. [905809] Esther McVey: It would have been better had the hon. Gentleman stopped after his first sentence. Not only am 14. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I plausible—I was giving the true statistics. Let us be What the average waiting time is for an assessment for honest: it was the Opposition who said that unemployment personal independence payment. [905817] would be up by a million at this stage. How wrong they were. [Interruption.] We have unemployment up by The Minister of State, Department for Work and 2 million. [Interruption.] Sorry, the Opposition said Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): When I was asked this at that it would be down by a million. Employment levels the last departmental questions, I said that the are at a record high: more than 30.7 million people are straightforward answer was that PIP claimants were now in work, putting the figures on a par with pre-recession having to wait too long and we are putting that right. I rates. am pleased to say that since I answered that question we have made considerable progress; both the assessment Mr Sheerman indicated dissent. providers have significantly increased the number of claims they are processing. That is good, and we will Esther McVey: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, meet the Secretary of State’s commitment that nobody but rather than living on planet fantasy I ask him to would be waiting 16 weeks by the end of the year. On look at the facts. the statistics, we will pre-announce the publication in due course, in line with the UK Statistics Authority code of practice. Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): Youth unemployment in the Ribble Valley is relatively low. Mr Speaker: Let us speed up, as these answers are One of our great facilities, the jobcentre in Clitheroe, is taking too long. currently under review and the suggestion is that it should close. Does the Minister accept that young people Cathy Jamieson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also in rural areas have to travel large distances to get to a thank the Minister for that answer, but I would like him jobcentre? As these jobcentres are important, they should to make something absolutely clear. If one of my not be told to get on a bus to Blackburn. constituents phones up the Department today to make a PIP claim, will that be dealt with within 16 weeks or Esther McVey: My hon. Friend is right that jobcentres will they hear what people are often hearing, which is are important. The question is how we best support that it could take up to six months? jobcentres and claimants. Can young people in rural areas make their claim on the phone or online, and can Mr Harper: Nobody will be waiting longer than we align various other organisations so that they can 16 weeks by the end of the year. One area where we are come together and help support people in a fully rounded performing better is Scotland; the contract Atos runs in way? Obviously, what we are doing is right, because, as Scotland has some of the best performance we are he says, in his area employment is up and unemployment seeing, so I hope that if someone were to make that is down. claim now they would get a decision much more quickly than the hon. Lady might expect. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Minister budgeted for 160,000 young people to complete the Lilian Greenwood: My constituent Ian Want has severely Youth Contract wage incentive payments. When the painful osteoporosis. Having already waited three years Department pulled the plug on that scheme, fewer than for a decision on his claim for disability living allowance, 529 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 530 he applied for PIP. Capita rang him at 10.30 pm on a time frame for the transfer of existing DLA recipients Wednesday to tell him that his medical assessment to PIP and waiting until such a time as his Department appointment was at 8.10 the following morning— is able to give them a timely decision about their entitlement? 50 miles away, in Stoke-on-Trent. Will the Minister apologise to Ian and to the many other disabled people Mr Harper: I agree with what my hon. Friend says; who are being let down by his Department? we are conducting the further natural reassessment roll-out only in those areas where I am confident we Mr Harper: I do not know the specific circumstances have the capacity to undertake the claims in a timely of that case. If what the hon. Lady describes is the case, way. We are doing it in a carefully controlled way. The it is clearly not acceptable to expect somebody to travel majority of DLA claimants will not be invited to claim at such short notice and I will look into the matter for PIP until 2015 onwards under a programme of managed her. As I said, however, both the assessment providers reassessment. are making considerable progress in the number of assessments they are making and communicating to the Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Department, and departmental decision makers are Thousands and thousands of DLA recipients are feeling making considerable progress in making decisions. the effect of the unjust bedroom tax. What does the Minister intend to do to raise discretionary housing Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): payments to help alleviate the problems felt by people While people are awaiting the assessment for PIP, what on DLA? special help is given to those with mental health conditions who want to get into the workplace to assist them to do so? Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is right to mention discretionary housing payments. I looked into this matter Mr Harper: We are looking at a number of options to quite carefully. We have been very generous in the help people. My hon. Friend will be aware that the amount of money that we have given to local authorities. national health service has made some announcements Indeed, many local authorities have not spent the money about the extra help it will be putting in place for people we have made available to them. We also made available with mental health conditions from April—this will be further funds for which local authorities could bid and, a significant improvement. We are also running some again, not all of that money was spent. So we have given pilots, examining access to psychological therapies and local authorities the wherewithal to use discretionary linking those up with support in getting into work. So housing payment to support those who they think have she will see that more support is available for those with a good case following the removal of the spare room mental health problems, both now and going forward. subsidy.

Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Will the Minister Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): One of the ensure that the welcome progress on PIP is also reflected advantages of having two assessment companies is that in a legacy on DLA claims, because under-16s, for the Minister should be able to make performance whom these claims still have to be made, are also comparisons between them. Has my hon. Friend assessed experiencing long delays? the performance of both companies, and is there any good practice that can be carried from one to the other? Mr Harper: I hear what my hon. Friend says. I have had one or two examples of that brought to my attention, Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I and I have asked officials to brief me on the DLA look at the performance of both providers, Atos and performance for children. I will come back to him in Capita, and he is right—where we see good practice and writing when I have something further to tell him. particular things that work with one, we want to make sure we share that information with the other. Having Personal Independence Payments the two is helpful for the Department in assessing their performance. 8. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): When he plans to begin the assessment of existing recipients of David Wright (Telford) (Lab): I support the point disability living allowance for eligibility for personal made by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan independence payment. [905810] Hames). Why are some of my constituents from Telford awaiting a PIP assessment being told that they will have The Minister of State, Department for Work and to go to Stoke-on-Trent? It is an 80-mile round trip. One Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): We have consistently said of the journey recommendations provided to one of my that we would take a controlled approach to introducing constituents involved sitting on a railway platform overnight PIP, continuously learning lessons as we went along. waiting for a train. This is a disgrace. When is the That is why we have introduced reassessments of existing Minister going to sort it out? disability living allowance claimants in a phased way, beginning from last October. Mr Harper: Under the guidance that we give assessment providers for journey times, no one should have to Duncan Hames: Is it indeed quite an inheritance that travel for more than 90 minutes on public transport to the new Minister has on his plate in this area. In June, I go to an assessment, so if that was what the hon. told his predecessor about a constituent of mine who Gentleman’s constituent was told, that was clearly a had received arrears of more than £5,000, having waited mistake. Ninety minutes is the maximum time people 10 months for his PIP assessment. Given the difficulties are supposed to have to travel by public transport, and we have heard about this afternoon, will he consider the for no longer. 531 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 532

Benefit Tourism Julie Hilling: The justification for the cruel and heartless bedroom tax is that it would force people to move into 9. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): What smaller homes. As only about 5% of people hit by the recent discussions he has had with his EU counterparts tax have been able to move, not least because in areas on measures to reduce benefit tourism. [905811] such as mine there are no smaller properties to move to, does the Secretary of State accept that this policy has The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain manifestly failed? Duncan Smith): My Ministers, officials, and I are in regular dialogue with the European Commission and Mr Duncan Smith: Actually, I do not, and by the way other member states about the co-ordination and reform I think the hon. Lady’s figures are not correct. I gave her of social security. The most recent meeting was at the higher figures even for last December. The rationale for October Employment and Social Policy Council. the policy was fairness. The previous Government left us with the situation where some on housing benefit in Mr Ruffley: The think-tank Open Europe today proposed the private sector were not allowed to occupy houses that EU migrants’ eligibility for in-work benefits and that had extra rooms, so balancing that is fair. Getting out-of-work benefits be restricted for the first three housing benefit spending under control after it nearly years. Are my right hon. Friend’s EU counterparts in doubled in cash terms under the previous Government, northern Europe sympathetic to such views? and helping those living in overcrowded accommodation while we build more houses, giving them a chance to Mr Duncan Smith: Although I have not read the move into houses where they can fit their families—that report, Open Europe has stated what we are already is decent and fair. discussing with Ministers of many of the other countries concerned. They are all pretty much in agreement that Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Given that, according the present system does not give them enough leeway, to recent surveys by social landlords, more than half the and there is a general sense that they want people to people impacted by the bedroom tax are now in arrears, contribute more before they receive benefits. That is what advice would the Secretary of State give those very much the tenor of the discussion, so what the social landlords, particularly housing associations, about think-tank writes is pretty much what I think is going to the unsustainable financial position they now find happen in Europe. themselves in?

Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I thank the Minister Mr Duncan Smith: Of course, we always keep in close for his decision to ensure that my constituents who fled contact with social landlords to ensure that they do Sierra Leone because of Ebola were able to claim what they are meant to do and do not overcharge. The benefits and were not affected by the habitual residence Homes and Communities Agency’s latest figures show test. Will he therefore reinstate the old rule whereby that arrears have fallen in the same period from last people who were advised by British embassies and high year and rent collection among housing associations is commissions to come back to Britain will have the stable at around 98%, so I think that it is safe to assume habitual residence rule waived? that the under-occupancy penalty has had little effect on housing association arrears. Mr Duncan Smith: The moment I heard the hon. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Lady’s question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The bedroom tax surely has a of State for Health, I immediately said to the Department, claim to be the most wrong-headed and iniquitous “Let me have the news on this”, and I changed the policy introduced by any Government in recent memory. policy on that specifically for Ebola. I am keeping the The Government’s justification for this cruel tax was matter under review to look at whether it is necessary to that putting it on social housing tenants would incentivise make a wider exemption, depending on what the embassies families and individuals to move into smaller homes, say, and I will come back to her about that in due but the policy has one fatal flaw: the absence of homes course. I was horrified to see what had happened to her for those families and individuals to move into. Surely constituents. the Secretary of State must today concede that the Under-occupancy Penalty policy has been an abject failure and scrap the tax immediately.

10. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What recent Mr Duncan Smith: Apart from the rhetoric, the reality estimate he has made of the number of people subject is that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. It was his Government to the under-occupancy penalty who have moved into a who started the process in the first place. I remind him smaller home since the introduction of that penalty. that when they introduced the local housing allowance, [905812] they refused to allow anybody who accepted that benefit to live in a house that had extra bedrooms, because that The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain would be unfair on those who were in that accommodation. Duncan Smith): The latest published figures showed We have restored that fairness. That is the right thing to that, as a result of various actions, 65,000 people were do, and it saves £500 million a year. no longer affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy. As at December 2013, around 22,000 had Child Poverty downsized or moved a year ago. New figures to be published in due course show that if that trend continues, 11. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): up to 50,000 will have moved or downsized by now, with What forecast he has made of the likely level of child the total no longer affected even higher. poverty in (a) 2015 and (b) 2020. [905813] 533 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 534

16. Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Disabled People (Work) What forecast he has made of the likely level of child poverty in (a) 2015 and (b) 2020. [905820] 12. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con): What steps he is taking to help people with The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): Relative disabilities into work. [905814] child poverty is now at its lowest level since the mid-1980s, and there are now 300,000 fewer children in relative poverty than in 2010. However, poverty projections are The Minister of State, Department for Work and based on a number of factors that cannot be reliably Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): There is a range of provision predicted, including the median income. to help disabled people, including the Work programme, Work Choice and Access to Work. We also launched Diana Johnson: According to the most recent figures our Disability Confident campaign to promote disabled published under this Government, 53% of children in people to employers. the Orchard Park and Greenwood ward in my constituency are living in poverty, compared with 11% in the Jesse Norman: I thank the Minister for that reply. neighbouring constituency of Haltemprice and Howden. Jobseekers with learning difficulties need support that What is the Minister going to do to ensure that we do jobcentres sometimes struggle to provide. They often do not end up with a permanently divided society? better when placed in social enterprises like Pack-IT Hereford in my constituency. Will he take steps to Steve Webb: The fall in unemployment has happened encourage such placements, and join me in congratulating across the country, and the risk that a child will be living Pack-IT Hereford on its work? in poverty is three times greater for those living in workless households than for those living in a house in Mr Harper: I do indeed join my hon. Friend and work. We now have over 300,000 fewer children living in constituency neighbour in congratulating Pack-IT Hereford workless households, with more falls since those figures on its work. That is one of a range of opportunities that were put together. That is the best antidote to child we are looking at to get more people with learning poverty. disabilities into work. Lucy Powell: Those same figures show that Manchester Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But Central has the fourth highest rate of child poverty in the inconvenient truth for the Minister is that the Work the country. That comes on top of the finding by the programme has been a terrible failure, particularly for Government’s own Social Mobility and Child Poverty those on employment and support allowance. Last week, Commission that there are now 600,000 more children Ministers were boasting that things have improved: that in working households living in absolute poverty. When 10% of people are being helped. That is fine—but what will Ministers stop denying that that is a problem and is he doing for the 90% who are not? do something about it?

Steve Webb: I was very struck by the comments of the Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is a bit of a glass- hon. Lady’s hon. Friend the shadow Education Secretary. half-full person. The 10% of people being helped through According to a recent article: the Work programme is a significant improvement, and “Criticising the policies of the last Labour government, Mr Hunt a significant number of people who go through Work said that the party had previously been too preoccupied with tax Choice get into work. That is a very considerable record, credits and not given enough thought to tackling social problems and 116,000 more disabled people are in work this year in families.” than last year. We are tackling those social problems through the troubled families initiative and a whole range of initiatives, 13. [905815] Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): The such as the pupil premium, free school meals and more Minister is right that when it comes to getting a job, help with child care for young children. Disadvantaged personalised support is as critical to people with a children will benefit from our measures. learning disability as it is to anyone else. Will he support Basingstoke’s Mencap, which provides training Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Assuming that the and a jobs club, and in February a jobs fair, to help Department for Work and Pensions supports the armed people with learning disabilities to find the right work forces covenant, will the Minister indicate whether the for them? children of any serving personnel might be brought into child poverty as a result of the Ministry of Defence’s Mr Harper: I very much support my right hon. Friend, decision in recent days, as we approach Remembrance who is very knowledgeable about these matters, and Sunday, to jack up the rents for Army married housing. congratulate Mencap in her constituency on its Aspire project. It strongly supports the work of the Disability Steve Webb: I take a close interest in those matters, as Confident campaign in getting more disabled people, vice-chair of the ministerial committee on the armed including those with learning disabilities, into work, forces covenant, and know that my hon. Friend has a and I commend it strongly. proud record in speaking for his constituents on these matters. We have sought to benefit the children of serving personnel—for example, with regard to education In-work Poverty if they have to move around the country—but I will be happy to raise with colleagues in the Ministry of Defence 15. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What his concern about the impact of the rent increase and recent estimate he has made of the incidence of ensure that he receives a written response. in-work poverty. [905818] 535 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 536

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain training, and the gender pay gap are all, every single Duncan Smith): The number of people in in-work poverty one, lower under this Government than when Labour fell by 300,000, according to the latest figures. The rate was in office? is flat in general terms since the election, despite there being more people in work than ever before, and there Mr Duncan Smith: This Government have dealt with are almost a million more people in working families huge problems that were left to us. First, we had a and above the poverty line. collapsed economy. We are now putting that right, and we are also getting more people back to work. The best Kerry McCarthy: Tomorrow is equal pay day, which way to get people out of poverty is to get their families marks the day on which women effectively start working into work. Under this Government, there is now the for free because they earn on average only 80p for every lowest number of households in poverty. £1 a man earns. Does the Secretary of State agree that addressing the gender pay gap, which has got worse Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): As others have under his Government, is key to tackling in-work poverty, remarked, this week is living wage week, when we and what does he intend to do about it? celebrate the success of employers and campaigners in moving towards getting more workers paid a wage that Mr Duncan Smith: First, let us start from where we they can afford to live on. Under this Government, the are: more women are now in work than ever before, number of people paid less than a living wage has risen which is a huge start. I also accept—[Interruption.] The from 3.6 million to 4.9 million—more than one in five rate is even better: it is a record rate. Of course, it is people. Does the Secretary of State agree that this absolutely vital and right to ensure that women who go Government’s failure to tackle low pay means that more to work get paid a decent salary. My right hon. Friend people in work are living in poverty, which is a key the Minister for Employment has been leading the reason why the Government are spending £400 million charge for the Department, doing a lot of campaigning. more on housing benefit for people in work than when Universal credit, as it rolls out nationally, delivers for they came into office? working women a far better deal, with higher wages, than they would get under the present system. Mr Duncan Smith: It is good to see the hon. Lady; I know that she did not turn up and vote for her party’s Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Given that own motion last week, and did not even sign it, but now 20% of workers are struggling on the minimum wage we have her here. I answer her question by simply saying alone, when was the last time the Secretary of State this: the reality is that we have seen the minimum wage spoke to employers about adopting a living wage for rise faster under this Government than under the previous their workers? Government, with an increase of nearly 10% since the election. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is Mr Duncan Smith: I have talked to employers endlessly doing everything he can to pursue companies that do about making sure that they pay a decent wage—first, not pay the minimum wage, and we are prosecuting making sure that people pay the minimum wage, which them. the last Government were rather slack about but we have done a lot on. My own Department pays our Rachel Reeves: First, I would like the Secretary of employees in London the London living wage, and we State to withdraw what he said about my not being here negotiated with the contractor to make sure everybody last week. He does not know the reasons why I was not gets it, including all the cleaners. here, and I expect him to withdraw those comments. Mr Speaker: I am sure that the House is aware—but The truth is that the in-work benefits bill is rising in if not, I can inform Members—that the House of real terms because of this Government’s failure to build Commons is itself an accredited living wage employer. a recovery that benefits everyone, not just a few at the top. We have seen a historic squeeze on wages for the majority and the minimum wage falling behind the Topical Questions increase in inflation, with an increase of just 70p in five years. The reality is that taxpayers are footing the bill T1. [905768] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) for the spread of low pay and insecurity under this (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental Government. Is it not time that the Secretary of State responsibilities. adopted Labour’s plans to raise the minimum wage, to get more workers paid a living wage, to ban exploitative The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain zero-hours contracts, and to build an economy that Duncan Smith): Today, I welcome the tougher action works for all working people? my Department has taken to recoup debt and safeguard taxpayers’ money. Now, where overpayments result from Mr Duncan Smith: I remind the hon. Lady that it was benefit fraud, the Department will always recover the under her Government that the minimum wage stalled. maximum amount in legislation, ending concessions Under this Government, it has risen by nearly 10% to that previously meant that people paid back less, and £6.50 from October 2014. As for those who are supposed making exceptions only where children will be affected. to be worse off, it is calculated using real earnings. Labour Members use a very simplistic calculation, and Mr Raab: Will the Secretary of State confirm that, on it does not give the full picture. The reality is that this the latest official data, child poverty, elderly poverty, Government categorically have done more for low-paid fuel poverty, inequality—using the Gini coefficient—the people than the previous Government did in their whole numbers of people not in education, employment or time in office. 537 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 538

Rachel Reeves: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): I am grateful for my hon. Mr Speaker: A point of order will come after questions. Friend’s question. We have introduced a range of If it relates to these matters—[Interruption.] No, there improvements for claims from terminally ill people. We is discretion. Exceptionally, I can take it after Question are already seeing claims at around the expected level of Time if it relates to these matters. 10 days. The assessment providers treat these cases as a high priority: 99% are processed within two days and Rachel Reeves: It relates to the Secretary of State’s 100% within five days. answer. T5. [905772] Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): One of the greatest failings of this Government is the high Mr Speaker: That is fine: I can take it after this level of in-work poverty and the significant cost of questions session, most certainly. in-work benefits. Therefore—this is a similar question to that asked by my hon. Friend the Member for T2. [905769] Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), who stole my (Con): The number of young people claiming thunder a tad—is it not time for the Secretary of State jobseeker’s allowance in Warwick and Leamington has to be a real advocate of the living wage, to help address fallen by 70% since April 2010. Will the Minister join this problem? me in congratulating local businesses and the young people who work so hard to make this possible, and Mr Duncan Smith: Under this Government, take-home outline what measures are being taken to ensure that pay rose last year by more than inflation for all but the this trend continues? richest 10%. Average annual pay growth is 3.7% for those who have stayed in work between 2012 and 2013, The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): I will and disposable income last year was higher than in any indeed join my hon. Friend in congratulating not only year under the previous Government. the businesses that are supporting young people into work but the young people who have now got a job and T8. [905775] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): are on their career journey, which we hope will be Which Minister is responsible for worklessness? Will successful for them. Equally, I congratulate my hon. they get to their feet and accept the grateful thanks of Friend on having a jobs fair in Leamington town hall the nation that the number of workless households and helping more people into work. It is Members on is the lowest since records began, and will they explain the Government Benches who are having jobs fair after to the House how it has been achieved? jobs fair and really looking at ways to help people into work. [Interruption.] Rather than chuntering, it would Mr Duncan Smith: This is a tough one, but I will be good if Opposition Members copied what we are endeavour to do my best. On behalf of my team and my doing. Government, I accept that we are doing the right thing, and more people are going to work than ever before. T4. [905771] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): A couple of weeks ago, a very disturbing press report said T6. [905773] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ that teachers are having to resort to spending their Co-op): Will the Secretary of State confirm the reserves, or even the pupil premium money, on rumours that the job fairs occurring up and down the providing food, clothes, transport, beds, and even country get a lot of assistance from his Department ovens for children living in poverty because they take and that that assistance goes to Conservative MPs and the view that if children are not fed and have nowhere even Conservative candidates, but that Labour and to sleep, they will never be able to achieve Opposition Members are not offered the same support educationally. Is it not an absolute disgrace that when they run anything similar? schools are having to resort to that because the safety net is not there to meet the fundamental needs of these Mr Duncan Smith: That allegation is without foundation. children? The jobcentres in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and all the others will give every bit of support to every Mr Duncan Smith: I have not seen that report, but I Labour Member and any other Member, nationalist or am happy to look at it. However, I believe that the work otherwise, to get their job fairs going. I recommend that being done in schools under this Government to support Labour Members do more to create job fairs in their people who come from low-income families is phenomenal. own constituencies, to help people get back to work. Introducing that support for those children means that more children are now staying in school. As I said T9. [905776] Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): earlier, they are getting better results directly as a result Ministers will be aware that another first for this side of of that support provided for them in school. the House is the launch of the Enfield over-50s jobs forum, helping to break down the barriers of getting T7. [905774] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): older people back into work. Will Ministers meet me Casework in my constituency has shown that, although and support the vast number of local and national the Department for Work and Pensions does well in companies that have got behind it and fully support it? identifying and prioritising claims made by terminally ill patients, when those claims are passed to Atos there Esther McVey: I will indeed meet my hon. Friend. I is a lack of monitoring. What steps is the Department congratulate him on all the work he is doing, not just on taking to ensure that those claims are dealt with in a job fairs in general but in supporting people over 50. He timely manner at every point in the system? has developed something unique to help people have 539 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 540 fuller working lives. I would be delighted to take forward jobseeker’s allowance have been sanctioned, including what he is doing. In fact, I have looked at it, the young people. One in four of those who were sanctioned Department now has a hold of it, and we are going to left JSA. More than half of those who left did so for spread it right across the country. reasons other than employment. In the light of that, will the Secretary of State apologise for his claim that Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): In his policies are getting people into work, when they earlier questions on the bedroom tax, it was not mentioned clearly are not? that this unfair charge hits 60,000 unpaid family carers, many of whom are not able to move from adapted Mr Duncan Smith: As far as I am concerned, jobcentres homes. They cannot move into work, they cannot take apply sanctions only as a last resort. With the new extra hours and they need those additional rooms, actions that we have taken to get mandatory reconsideration, which are essential for getting enough sleep to enable the number of appeals has dropped. The truth is that them to carry on caring. Is it not about time that we when the hon. Lady’s party was in government, it accepted that they should be exempt from the bedroom accepted the need for sanctions when people did not do tax? what they were expected to do. Only in opposition does it claim that it is opposed to sanctions. It would not Mr Duncan Smith: We have already had court cases implement that policy if it was in government. that leave this very clearly with the Department. Our view is that those who need to be exempted are exempted, Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome the fall in and we have left discretionary payments of some the number of JSA claimants in my constituency from £380 million with local authorities to make those local more than 1,500 to below 700 since 2010. However, one discretionary decisions themselves. The hon. Lady’s area in which we face significant recruitment problems local authority can do just that. is nursing. That is a problem not just in Staffordshire but across the country. Will the Secretary of State talk T10. [905777] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Will to the Secretary of State for Health to see whether we my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming this can increase the number of training places at universities Government’s approach to the national minimum wage across the country? and its rise to £6.50 last month, which is the biggest cash increase since 2008 and 3% above inflation? Esther McVey: We will indeed speak to all the Departments to ensure that more people are recruited Mr Duncan Smith: That is exactly what has happened. in different areas all the time. We speak to trade associations, The minimum wage has risen faster under this Government national employers and other Departments. The wonderful than under the previous Government, and we are driving news, which will be celebrated in all parts of the House, for greater acceptance among businesses. is that record numbers of people are in employment. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): How Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Secretary of many people does the Minister of State, Department State update us on the work that is being done to for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Forest of prepare for the application of the welfare cap? Will he Dean (Mr Harper), aspire to help on an annual basis say whether that work has been informed by devolution through the Access to Work programme? considerations? Mr Harper: I would very much like to help more. In Mr Duncan Smith: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we the last financial year, 2013-14, we helped 35,000 individuals are in the middle of discussing devolution proposals into Access to Work, which was 5,000 more than the that emanated in Scotland but that cover all other previous year. That is a good start. elements of the United Kingdom. The key point that I make to him again and again is that Northern Ireland Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is all very has not implemented the welfare legislation. As a result well for Germany to lecture us on the importance of the of that, it is difficult for us to deal with Northern free movement of workers in Europe, but that is what it Ireland directly on these matters, but I am certainly is supposed to be about—workers. Because Germany willing to engage. has a contributory system, one cannot arrive there and Mr Speaker: As I indicated earlier, I will take the claim benefits. Will the Secretary of State take action, point of order because it relates to these matters. sort this matter out, take on the European Commission and say that people have to contribute taxes for three Rachel Reeves: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The years before they can claim benefits here? Secretary of State criticised me for not turning up to vote on an Opposition day motion last week. He knows Mr Duncan Smith: We have already taken action. We nothing of why I was not able to attend last week. I have closed many of the loopholes and tightened things kindly ask him to withdraw his criticism and apologise up. Come Monday next week, nobody will be able to for the aspersion that I could not be bothered to turn up claim out-of-work benefit for more than three months, to vote in the House of Commons. and after that people will have to leave the country. They will not get housing benefit, they have to be able Mr Duncan Smith: I simply made the point that it was to speak English and they have to show that they are good to see the hon. Lady here because she did not turn resident here. And that is only the beginning. up to vote in the last debate. I understand that she retweeted that she was Rochester at the time. She was Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) not put down as a signatory to the motion. Those are (Lab): A research group from Oxford university has the points that I made. analysed the data from the Government’s new sanctions regime. It has identified that 4.5 million people on Rachel Reeves rose— 541 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 542

Mr Speaker: Order. We cannot have a protracted apologise. He knows nothing of the reason why I was exchange on this one matter. However, if the hon. Lady not here last week, so I ask him to withdraw the wishes to add anything further, I am content that she aspersion and apologise. should do so. Mr Duncan Smith: I stand by my assertion that the hon. Lady did not vote and that her name was not on Rachel Reeves: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was not in the Order Paper. Rochester last week. I will give the Secretary of State one last opportunity to withdraw the aspersion and Mr Speaker: Order. That is the end of it for now. 543 3 NOVEMBER 2014 Child Abuse Inquiry 544

Child Abuse Inquiry it will not be straightforward to find a chairman who has both the expertise to do this hugely important work, and has had no contact at all with an institution 3.34 pm or an individual about whom people have concerns. I The Secretary of State for the Home Department still believe, however, that it is possible to find somebody (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I who is suitably qualified and can win the confidence of would like to make a statement on the independent survivors, so I want to turn now to what I plan to do to panel inquiry into child abuse, which has been established recruit a new chairman. to consider whether institutions in England and Wales I will hold meetings with representatives of the survivors have taken seriously their duty of care to protect children of child abuse, starting next week. I have already had a from sexual abuse. number of discussions with Members of Parliament The House will remember that in July, I made a who have campaigned for an inquiry into child abuse—the statement in which I announced my intention to establish hon. Members for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), the panel inquiry. I did so because of the growing for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), for Rochdale evidence of organised child sexual abuse, conducted (Simon Danczuk), for Wells (Tessa Munt), for West over many years, and serious allegations about the Bromwich East (Mr Watson), and my hon. Friends the failure of some of our most important institutions to Members for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim protect children from this disgusting crime. I established Loughton) and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith)—and a panel inquiry, because it is the best way of making I will continue to have discussions with them. I will also sure that the inquiry is conducted by a team of experts discuss the appointment of the new panel chairman with empathy and sensitivity to the feelings of the with the shadow Home Secretary and the right hon. survivors of child abuse. The fact that it is a panel Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). I have already consisting of several people means that it has within it agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the nominated more expertise than any one person could offer. Importantly, panel chairman will attend a pre-confirmation hearing the public can have extra confidence in the integrity of before the Home Affairs Select Committee. its work, because no one individual can take important In the meantime, the panel will go about its important decisions or come to judgments alone. work, and I can tell the House that it will hold its first The members of the panel—Sharon Evans, Ivor Frank, meeting on Wednesday 12 November, and meet every Dame Moira Gibb, Barbara Hearn, Professor Jenny Wednesday thereafter until Christmas. The panel will Pearce, Dru Sharpling, Professor Terence Stephenson organise other meetings that will discuss the different and Graham Wilmer—are in place, and they are supported themes and issues covered by the inquiry, and attendance by Ben Emmerson QC, who is counsel to the inquiry, for those meetings—for both panel members and expert and Professor Alexis Jay, who is the panel’s expert witnesses—will be set accordingly. In addition, the panel adviser. The panel therefore consists of members with secretariat is planning two regional events that will be a broad range of experience and skills. They have held before Christmas, and another four that will be backgrounds in social care, academia, law enforcement, held in the new year. Those regional events will provide health care, the media and voluntary sector, and some an early opportunity for survivors to give their views have experienced sexual abuse themselves as children. I about how the panel should go about its work. believe that the panel can command the confidence of One matter that I know has been raised by some the public and—most importantly—of the survivors of campaigners is whether the inquiry should become a child abuse. statutory inquiry. The inquiry, as constituted at present, The House will know, however, that on Friday, the like the inquiries into Hillsborough and the murder of panel’s chairman, Fiona Woolf, announced her intention Daniel Morgan, is a non-statutory inquiry. I have already to resign. She did so because, as she wrote in her letter said that the panel will have access to all Government to me, papers, reviews and reports that it requests, and subject “it has become clear that the inquiry,—” to the constraints imposed by any criminal investigations, it will be free to call witnesses from any organisation it if she continued to chair it— deems appropriate. However, as I said to the House in “would not have the widespread victim support it so desperately July, I want to make it clear that, if the panel chairman deserves and needs.” deems it necessary, the Government are prepared to Fiona Woolf’s resignation follows the resignation of the convert it into a full statutory inquiry, in line with the panel’s first chairman, the noble and learned Lady, Inquiries Act 2005. Baroness Butler-Sloss. Both women, I believe, had strong Another matter that has been raised is the terms of credentials to chair the inquiry. Baroness Butler-Sloss reference for the inquiry. Some say the terms are too was the first female Lord Justice of Appeal, president of broad, while others say the terms are too narrow. I do the family division of the High Court, and she chaired not propose to narrow the terms of reference, because the Cleveland child abuse inquiry. Fiona Woolf is a to do that would risk missing out, in a fairly arbitrary leading lawyer and a former president of the Law Society. manner, some important institutions. Likewise, I do not However, for different—and in the end, understandable— propose to extend the terms of reference to include reasons, both Baroness Butler-Sloss and Fiona Woolf Northern Ireland, Scotland or the Crown dependencies. concluded that they did not command the confidence of I will, however, discuss with the new panel chairman survivors. how the Hart inquiry in Northern Ireland and the Almost four months after I announced my intention Oldham inquiry in Jersey can feed in to the panel to to establish a panel inquiry, it is obviously very disappointing make sure that no information, and no institutions or that we do not yet have a panel chairman, and for that I individuals with a case to answer, can fall through the want to tell survivors that I am sorry. To put it bluntly, cracks. 545 Child Abuse Inquiry3 NOVEMBER 2014 Child Abuse Inquiry 546

[Mrs Theresa May] We can make sure that people who thought they were beyond the reach of the law face justice. We can do everything possible to I can also tell the House that the Government are save vulnerable young children from the appalling abuse that you considering ways of trying to make the experience of suffered and endured. Let us come together to make this process work and finally deliver justice for what you and too many others giving evidence less traumatic for survivors. The panel have suffered. will therefore take evidence not just in public and private meetings, but remotely, with witnesses able to speak to I commend this statement to the House. panel members from their homes. The secretariat to the inquiry is also in discussions with officials in the Department of Health and other organisations to ensure that counselling 3.45 pm and support is available to survivors before and after Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) they provide evidence to the inquiry. To ensure that (Lab): I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement to the there is an open channel of communication between House today. survivors, the panel and the Government, I will establish Two years ago this month, the Home Secretary came a survivor liaison group, which will meet on a regular to the House to announce investigations into abuse in basis as long as the inquiry continues. north Wales care homes. I asked her then if she would Some Members of the House have suggested that the set up an overarching inquiry into child abuse. In July Government should publish today the Wanless report this year, she rightly agreed to do so and said that she about the Home Office permanent secretary’s investigation wanted it to start as quickly as possible. Four months into the so-called Dickens dossier. I can tell the House later, that inquiry has not started and has been mired by that the Wanless report will be published next week. confusion. I therefore welcome the changes she has That is because it is about a separate but related matter announced today and her apology to survivors of abuse to the work of the panel inquiry, and I want members of for the things that have gone wrong. the public and the media to have time to scrutinise both This House will be united in our determination that this statement and the Wanless review properly. this inquiry should get back on track. For too long, In the midst of debate about names, structures and children have not been listened to when they called for legal powers, we must always keep in mind the survivors help. From the BBC to the national health service, from of child abuse themselves. Let us remember the events care homes to the police, from local councils to national that prompted me to announce this historic inquiry into Governments of all political parties, no institution or child abuse in the first place. There was the systematic organisation should be complacent about how they may abuse of vulnerable young girls in Derby, Rochdale, have failed in the past, or might be failing even now, to Oxford and other towns and cities across the country; make sure that children are heard and protected, that examples of celebrities abusing minors and getting away criminals are brought to justice, that problems are not with it, apparently because of their fame; and evidence covered up, and that survivors get the support they that some of the most important institutions in the need. No one should be in any doubt about the deep country, from the BBC to the NHS, failed in their duty damage that abuse causes to those survivors for the rest of care towards children. of their lives. To get the inquiry back on track, we also Since I made my statement in July, the evidence has need to recognise the things that went wrong, because it only mounted. We have seen the Alexis Jay report into is vital that it does not fail again. abuse in Rotherham, and the report by the hon. Member First, much more work is needed to involve survivors. for Stockport (Ann Coffey), which was commissioned I welcome the further announcements the Home Secretary by Tony Lloyd, the police and crime commissioner for has made today. The Home Secretary was specifically Greater Manchester. Both reports exposed serious failings asked in July by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale among the police, social services, schools and other (Simon Danczuk) how survivors would be involved. In institutions, and the obvious conclusion is that, if only July, she said that that was up to the chairman of the we had learned from those appalling cases earlier, there inquiry.However, I think that that approach from the Home would be fewer victims of abuse today. I believe the Office has been what has caused some of the current whole House will agree with me that we owe it to the problems. As she has recognised today, Ministers need survivors in all those cases to work together, to let the to engage directly themselves with survivors on the panel inquiry do its job as quickly as possible, and to impartiality of the chair and the work and purpose of start to learn the lessons of the many cases where the inquiry before it starts. I welcome her commitment undoubtedly too many things went horribly wrong. now to meet survivors, in particular to develop additional I want to end my statement by issuing a direct message support and counselling, and to establish a survivors’ to the many survivors of child abuse and their forum or liaison group to ensure that their voices are representatives: heard. She will know how important it is that this I know you have experienced terrible things. I know we cannot liaison group or forum works effectively.Will she specifically imagine what that must be like. And I know that, perhaps because consult with survivors in those meetings on the terms of of the identity of your abusers or the way you were treated when reference and on the issues the inquiry should focus on you needed help, many of you have lost trust in the authorities. I before it starts? know some of you have questioned the legitimacy of this process. I know you are disappointed that the panel has no chairman. I Secondly, on the choice of chair, I welcome the Home understand that. I am listening, and to you, I say this: I am as Secretary’s proposals to consult more widely. Will she determined as you are to get to the truth. That is why I set up this ignore those siren voices who say it is not possible to inquiry. find someone who is not a close contact of those whose We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to do something decisions may be investigated by the inquiry? She will that is hugely important. Together, we can expose what has gone know that other sensitive inquiries have managed to do wrong in the past. We can prevent it going wrong in the future. important work without going wrong and without being 547 Child Abuse Inquiry3 NOVEMBER 2014 Child Abuse Inquiry 548 derailed, including the Hillsborough and Soham inquiries, be further opportunities for such meetings and for some and including the current Northern Ireland inquiry into open forums in different parts of the country, where it child abuse. will be possible for people to come forward. I recognise Thirdly, on transparency, the inquiry has to address the importance of that process; it is an important part concerns about whether there have been institutional of the work that the panel inquiry will be undertaking. cover-ups. Does the Home Secretary therefore agree I believe it will be possible to find an individual who that it was very unwise of Home Office officials to is able to chair the inquiry. Of course, it is necessary that become involved in redrafting Fiona Woolf’s letters? that individual has the confidence of the survivors and Will she tell the House whether Ministers or special the skill set required to lead a team, which is what the advisers saw those earlier letters, or were involved in panel inquiry is all about. This is not about one person redrafting? Will she make sure that no one in the Home as chairman making decisions; it is about a team of Office is involved in drafting any disclosure letters for people with different expertise and experience—some the next chair? on the panel are survivors of child abuse themselves, as I welcome the Home Secretary’s announcement that I have said—coming together to ensure we can get to the Wanless review report will be published next week. the truth. Will she make a statement to the House on it? She will The right hon. Lady asked a question about the know that there will be considerable interest from all drafting process for the letters and whether I was aware parties in the House. This is not just about the past. We of it. I was not. I have checked with my special advisers; know that abuse is happening now on an unacceptable they were aware only that a letter was being written. scale. Will she therefore ensure that there is much greater They had no knowledge of its different iterations and transparency on child protection work today, particularly had no part in drafting or redrafting the letter. the work of the National Crime Agency, to make sure The right hon. Lady made reference to the need for that we are not making the same mistakes again and are transparency in a number of areas and in relation to the not storing up more problems for children in future? National Crime Agency as well. The work that the National Fourthly, on the progress of the inquiry, I welcome Crime Agency has been doing—particularly the now the Home Secretary’s agreement to getting the panel over 700 arrests we have seen in Operation Notarise—is moving before the chair is appointed and to keeping an important sign of the seriousness with which it takes open the need for it to be a statutory inquiry, because it these issues. As she will be aware, the director general of is vital that it can get access to all the information and the National Crime Agency, Keith Bristow, has made a testimony it needs. number of comments about the significance and the This is an extremely important inquiry. The Home size of the potential problem we face in this country. It Secretary has done the right thing to recognise that is shocking. I am sure every Member of this House is things have gone wrong, and we will support her in the appalled by the scale and nature of these crimes. I action needed and whatever it takes to get things back believe the National Crime Agency is being open about on track and ensure that the inquiry works. However, let the work it is undertaking on that. me also urge her not to forget the scale of the problem We owe it to the survivors of historic child abuse, as of child abuse and exploitation happening right now well as to those who might be subject to child abuse and the weaknesses in the child protection system today. today, to ensure not only that the panel inquiry is doing We need a fearless and robust examination of how its work, but that those involved in criminal investigations children have been let down, and we will support her in today are bringing perpetrators to justice. making sure that happens; but we also need strong action to protect children and make sure they are heard Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): in future. She is right that this is a once-in-a-generation I commend the Home Secretary for the very measured opportunity; it is important, not just for survivors but way in which she has approached this issue, and I for our children today, to make sure that this historic remind the House that it is only because of her that this opportunity is not lost. inquiry is now taking place in response to Back Benchers’ requests. I remind my right hon. Friend that this is an Mrs May: I thank the right hon. Lady for the tone overarching inquiry, encompassing everything from Savile and approach she has taken to this matter. As I said in to Rotherham, and not about individual children or my statement, across the House we all feel that we have individual people who may or may not have been implicated. an opportunity to do something that can deal with the This is not a one-woman show; it is a panel of experts terrible abuses and crimes that have taken place in open to scrutiny. Will she reiterate to me that to put the past and to learn the lessons that are necessary for survivors at the heart of this inquiry, it will be necessary the future. As we have seen with the recent reports into to consult them about the possibilities for a future Rotherham and the report about Greater Manchester chairman and to have a sounding-board of survivors from the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey), and victims, who have not been listened to for so many these issues have not gone away. We continue to see decades, so that they can continue to shape the inquiry abuse taking place and we continue to see failures, as it goes forward and gain their confidence every step sadly, in our institutions—some of them the very institutions of the way? That is vital and I know she supports it. that children should expect to be able to trust to protect them from these sorts of crimes. Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes very important points, The right hon. Lady asked a number of questions. and I am grateful to him for the conversations we have On engagement with survivors, as I indicated, I will be had. As I indicated, I have spoken to a number of meeting with survivors groups. The secretariat to the Members who have been campaigning on this issue over panel inquiry has also started some separate meetings the years. He is absolutely right that the terms of with survivors groups already. As I indicated, there will reference mean that the panel inquiry will look at a 549 Child Abuse Inquiry3 NOVEMBER 2014 Child Abuse Inquiry 550

[Mrs May] would be necessary to have a request from the chairman. At the moment, it is not possible because we do not period of 44 years—from 1970 to today—and that it is have a chairman. Once the chairman is in place, they open to the panel to decide whether it wishes to go will be able to make that judgment and come forward if beyond that period. It is indeed overarching, looking at they wish to turn this into a statutory inquiry. cases of historical abuse and more recent cases to find out what were the institutional failures when it came to Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Will the Home protecting children, and what further lessons need to be Secretary follow up the—in my view—very sensible learned. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we suggestion from her right hon. and learned Friend the must remember the survivors in this work; it is for them Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), the former that we are trying to find the answers to what happened Attorney-General, that the net should be cast more in the past and trying to ensure that in future people widely on this occasion, and that the search for a chair will not have to go through the terrible experiences that should extend to jurisdictions abroad that are similar to some did. I will set up a liaison group, whose aim will be ours? exactly as my hon. Friend suggested—to ensure that the survivors are kept in touch and able to contribute as the Mrs May: Our initial consideration of potential inquiry goes along. candidates did involve looking more widely than the Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and United Kingdom, and I should be happy to repeat that Hillsborough) (Lab): I commend the Secretary of State process. It should be borne in mind that it is not only and my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, the United Kingdom that has seen examples of child Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) for the tone abuse of this sort. If we do look more widely, we must of the statement and the response. The emphasis on be careful to ensure that individuals will again be able to survivors and victims raises the issue, as the Home have the confidence of survivors. Secretary mentioned, of the scale of the problem. What immediate steps could be put in place not just to help John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Leah the historical victims but to prepare for further revelations? McGrath Goodman, an American journalist, was banned It is beyond belief that this is not a nationwide problem from entering the country by the UK Border Agency, as rather than one confined to the areas that have already a result of which she was prevented from investigating been identified. Given the enormity of the task confronting child abuse in Jersey. The allegations involved a senior the panel, would it be reasonable in practical terms at UK politician. I hear what the Home Secretary says least to consider having a joint chair, so that two people about terms of reference, but the terms of reference could address not only the historical lessons but where would exclude investigation of an issue that falls into we need to go in changing the culture and altering the two jurisdictions. Why, for instance, was Leah McGrath nature of how this country’s institutions have worked? Goodman arrested at Heathrow airport recently? Will the Home Secretary look carefully at such issues, which Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting are evidence of the way in which things have been suggestion, which was proposed to me by another Member covered up during the present decade? this mor