Legislative Assembly of Special Committee on PEI’s Electoral Boundaries

Published by the Order of the Hon. Greg Deighan, Speaker

Date of Hearing: Tuesday 21 March 2006 Meeting Status: Public

Locations: Elmsdale Community Centre; Linkletter Inn, Summerside

Subjects: Public hearings on the Report of the PEI Electoral Boundaries Commission, chaired by Honourable Justice John A. McQuaid, report dated 5 October 2004, and the advisability of adopting fixed provincial election dates Committee: (Chair), MLA Montague-Kilmuir Cletus Dunn, MLA Alberton-Miminegash Helen MacDonald, MLA St. Eleanors-Summerside Elmer MacFadyen, Minister of Community and Cultural Affairs Guests: Gerard LeClair; Reg Harper; Ronnie Costain; Diane Doyle; Eileen McCarthy; James Diamond; Lloyd Gavin; Dennis Gallant; Wade Stetson; Margaret Adams; Alan Graham; Pat Murphy; John Curtis; Lorraine Robinson; Elmer Williams; Ross Harrington; Greg Guptill Staff: Marian Johnston, Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees

Edited by Hansard Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006

The Committee met at 1:00 p.m. requires a commission to review districts of the province, and make a report to the Elmsdale Community Centre Legislative Assembly setting out its recommendations as to the area, boundaries Chair (Bagnall): Good afternoon, ladies and names of the districts of the province; and gentlemen. It’s 1:00. We are a Special Committee on Prince Edward Island’s AND WHEREAS the final report of the Electoral Boundaries. We are here by a PEI Electoral Boundaries Commission has motion of the House, of the Legislative been received by the Speaker; Assembly, requesting that a special committee tour and visit communities to AND WHEREAS the report makes deal with the electoral boundaries that came recommendations which require out in the McQuaid Report. consultation; What we’re here to do today as a committee THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that a is to listen. We’re here to listen to all your Special Committee of this House be concerns. If you have concerns with the way established to be called the Special the boundaries have been drawn up or any Committee on Prince Edward Island’s concerns at all with the McQuaid Report, Electoral Boundaries; we’re here to listen, and if you have recommendations, we’re here to listen to THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER those also. RESOLVED that this committee be comprised of six members, two to be named So I’m going to ask the Clerk of by the Leader of the Opposition, four to be Committees, Marian Johnston, if she would named by the Premier; read the motion so everyone would know what the motion was, and also, on fixed AND THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER elections. We’re going to be taking any RESOLVED that this Assembly request the comments and citizens’ concerns on fixed Special Committee on Prince Edward election periods, too. We’re looking for Island’s Electoral Boundaries meet to some input from the public on how you feel receive opinion and report back to this about fixed elections. We’re, again, here to House with recommendations. listen and that’s basically what this Committee is here to do. The second motion that the Chair has asked me to read is regarding fixed election dates: With that, I will ask the Clerk of Committees to read the motion that’s on the WHEREAS the Special Committee on floor, Motion No. 20, and if you would Prince Edward Island’s Electoral proceed, please. Boundaries is currently in the process of organizing a schedule of public Clerk of Committees: Thank you, Mr. consultations to receive opinions on the Chairman. issue of electoral boundaries: It was moved by the hon. Premier, seconded THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that by the hon. Provincial Treasurer, the this committee expand these hearings in following Motion: order to gather public input into the desirability of establishing fixed election WHEREAS section 9 of the Electoral dates on Prince Edward Island. Boundaries Act R.S.P.E.I. 1988 Cap. E-2.1

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Chair: You’ve heard both of the motions, rural PEI. We will see the uniqueness and so we’re prepared to listen to presentations historical aspects of communities such as this afternoon. I notice that our first two Tignish, Alberton, O’Leary, and Tyne presentations that were scheduled have not Valley swallowed up into the bland spaces shown up yet, and I was wondering if of these huge ridings. Communities of West Gerard LeClair, if you’re prepared to move Prince, they’ve always worked will with one ahead on the schedule? another while maintaining their independence, and I feel that this will end up Gerard LeClair: Committee members, pitting one against the other as each seeks ladies and gentlemen. government investment and/or assistance. I guess you’d pretty well say I was fairly We continue to have substantial growth in anxious to present my comments and my the urban areas of PEI, namely presentation. I showed up a day early. I was Charlottetown and Summerside, and I here yesterday afternoon, and I hope that believe that this is where the push for these you don’t take into account my lack of changes comes from. Now while this may be ability to take in directions or details and true, the report has failed to see where a lot don’t pre-judge my report as someone not of this growth comes from. It is from the being able to follow directions. economic impact of our rural economy. The economic engines of our Island economy are Chair: The only thing I would ask, we’re rural industries such as farming, fishing, taping here for the Hansard. There are no tourism, and it’s the fishermen, the farmers, speakers for anybody behind you to hear, so plant workers and tourism operators that are if you could speak up when doing your coming to Summerside and Charlottetown to presentation so people will be able to hear, purchase their wares. It’s people from I’d appreciate it. Tignish, Miminegash, Kildare, Anglo, Portage, Rustico that are coming to the cities Gerard LeClair: I think that’s the very first and spurring the growth of these cities. time anybody told me to speak up. Most time it’s to keep quiet. Does this warrant losing their democratic voice at home? Why should I have to lose I’d like to thank the Committee for the my political impact as a citizen of PEI? Why opportunity to once again participate in this does my rural voice have to be lessened for democratic process. I gave a presentation the sake of urban Prince Edward Island? earlier on and my presentation today won’t These changes proposed are significant and entail many details, but it’s more from the I feel that they will have catastrophic heart and how I feel. implications in rural PEI and that we should not change just for the sake of change. I’d like to address a number of areas of concern to me in regards to the McQuaid Then you may ask also if I have a problem Report on Electoral Boundaries. My biggest with having a special electoral district for concern is the attempt to have zero percent the Evangeline area because of the variance in the ridings across the Island. uniqueness of that area. Well, ladies and This concern has many negative gentlemen, no, I do not. All I’m asking for, implications for rural Islanders. or from you, is that you will also take into account the uniqueness of Tignish, Palmer With the increase in the size of rural ridings Road, Skinner’s Pond, Kildare, Cascumpec, that are being proposed, we will see the Alberton, Elmsdale, Portage, Tyne Valley erosion of the autonomy of communities in and all areas in between.

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Do not erode our voice in the democratic great? Is that correct? process. I ask you to maintain the present representation in rural PEI. I ask you to Gerard LeClair: I mean, in order to allow consider using a variance of at least 15 to those ridings in the urban areas to come into 20% to allow this to happen. This will allow fruition, that means that the voters are going these communities of interest in rural PEI to to have to come from somewhere. I mean, remain intact and to maintain their unique based in a rural area, that means that those identity. Myself, for example, living in rural ridings are going to have to increase. Kildare, as opposed to rural areas or other They’re going to have to increase in size, parts of the Island, have only an MLA to and thus you’ll have, give or take, whatever represent my concerns to the province, variance there is within the voters. It’s the whereas other individuals have their geographical area that has my biggest municipal governments to fight for them. concern. I ask you not to water down that voice for The point that I was trying to stress is that me and do not water down the impact of my where you may have O’Leary and Alberton, vote here in rural PEI. for example, in close proximity in the ridings or whatnot, they would tend to Thank you. maybe lose their uniqueness and independence as a voice. You just take one Chair: Thank you very much. issue, for example, healthcare and hospitals and that. Any member have any questions or concerns? The hon. Elmer MacFadyen. But, that’s, like I said, you only have so many voters to go around and I mean, if Mr. MacFadyen: My only question would you’re going to draw them into the urban be is that I take it from your presentation areas, then that means you have to increase that you have concerns with the variance the size of the rural ridings. That’s my that is being proposed. biggest concern there. Right now, the variance is plus or minus Mr. MacFadyen: Thank you. 25%, and I believe that from the Justice McQuaid Report, he’s recommending plus Chair: Mr. Dunn. or minus 10%. I guess I also heard you saying about the growth in regards to the Mr. Dunn: Do you have any opinions on urban centres, taking it away from the rural fixed election dates? centres. I believe, from my perspective, you do raise a valid point in regards to Gerard LeClair: Myself, personally I representation when you look at the larger would have no problem with fixed election centres where they have municipal dates. I was thinking about it yesterday governments. while I was waiting for people to show up for the meeting. I had a lot of time to think In some areas across the province, I guess, about it. I said: You know, it’s like any they probably have committees or CICs or major corporation. I mean, you know, when whatnot that are in place, and in some areas, you look at it, you consider your MLAs and all they do is collect fire dues or they do ministers as your board of directors or minimal tasks. Your concern is, I take it, whatever. that you would recommend a decrease in the variance, but what’s being proposed is too I mean, you’re always called to task

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anyway. Any good corporation is called to opportunity to react to the Electoral task usually once a year or whatever, has a Boundaries Commission and the report job rating. You usually have your annual known as the McQuaid Report. My name is meeting and people know when your annual Reg Harper and I live in the District of meeting is and you can go from there as Alberton-Miminegash. opposed to - I mean, the way it works now is when it’s the most opportune time for I understand that the report must be given government. For myself, I would have no the Legislature as required by the Electoral problem with the fixed election dates. Boundaries Act. We feel that the report did not do justice to the many presentations that Mr. Dunn: Thank you. were given and especially those presented at this end of the Island. We feel that we were Chair: I guess, before you leave, your not heard and now we have another riding is Tignish? opportunity to make our thoughts known to you as our elected officials of Prince Gerard LeClair: Right presently there now, Edward Island. I’m in 26. It seems to me that if you’re going to have a Chair: You’re in 26. Will it change? lawyer prepared before for the electoral act, you’re only going to get an extreme legal Gerard LeClair: Yes. opinion. I mean, we don’t elect the Law Society of PEI to govern us. So I think it’s Chair: So what will you become if the more important that we get the opinion of McQuaid Report comes into effect? our MLAs as where these boundaries should be and just how much representation they Gerard LeClair: I would be in - I think it’s should have in each of them. changed around now. I’d be into 27 now, yeah. The other thing is, if you look at the town of Summerside, they have Basil Stewart, and I Chair: Okay. That’s good, thank you. know that the rest of the communities also Thank you very much for your presentation. have their councillors, village councillors and so on, but when the Mayor of We would ask Reg Harper, please, to come Summerside stands up to speak, he certainly forward. is representing a very large proportion of - represent the population. He may not have Good afternoon, sir. How are you doing an opportunity to sit in Cabinet but I don’t today? I see you have a presentation. think there’s anybody in Cabinet that would ignore him when he speaks. So I think that’s Reg Harper: Yes. extra representation that they get and we lack in rural communities. Chair: So we’ll let you go through that, and you’ll be open for some questions after? I guess an example of that is take a look at what happened when the base closed in Reg Harper: Great. Summerside. Once Basil got active - I know there were other people active as well - but Chair: Okay, proceed, Reg. when the dust settled, the new GST centre ended up in Summerside, and I think we got Reg Harper: First, I want to thank the something like - they peaked around 1,500 government of the day for giving us the part- and full-time jobs there. There was

4 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 very little chance of that ever arriving in adjustments possible that will still meet the West Prince because they had more requirements and yet maintain representation in Summerside. representation in rural PEI. This can be achieved by allowing the variance level to The rural area of Prince Edward Island also be between 15 to 20% and yet allow for a 5 generates a large economic impact in this to 10% growth or decline per district. province and we feel that this voice needs to be well represented in our Legislature. The I want to thank you for your opportunity to voice of our farmers, fishers, tourist present our reaction to the McQuaid Report. operators and small business operators must be given every opportunity to be heard. The Thank you very much. Any questions? McQuaid Report didn’t respect this, and to accommodate our suggestion we feel that Chair: I notice you have fixed election the variance should be allowed to stand at dates on the bottom of your report with five, between plus or minus 15 to 20%. This is four question marks. what they do in Manitoba to guarantee the rural areas of the province get representation Reg Harper: Yeah. Again, it’s not in the Legislature. something I’d be in favour of, and basically for the same reason. If you put too many We feel that the McQuaid Report destroyed controls on what’s going to take place in the the rural electoral system as we know it. We election, it’s just going to become basically, feel that this is too big a change when some a bureaucratic process and it’s going to take small tinkering with the system would have a lot of interest out of it. I think that you’re accommodated and met the requirements as going to have a lot less volunteers to get the laid out. election on with and, in the end, probably a low voter turnout. Islanders are very close to their politicians and to the districts they represent. That’s the Chair: Okay. Any questions? Cletus, any reason why PEI has the largest voter turnout questions? No? in any jurisdiction in the country. We feel that the McQuaid Report would help to Great, thank you very much, we appreciate deteriorate this situation and lead to a lower your - level of interest in the democratic process. If the process is too controlled, you’re not [There was a telephone call] going to get a great deal of volunteers showing up to do work on behalf of Chair: The Mayor of Alberton just called whatever party. If there’s too much controls and that’s who the phone was regarding that in place, there’s not going to be as much he was going to be late and he will be here interest. later on. Just to let you know why we had an interruption there. Communities of interest are important and must be respected when drafting up new Is Mr. Costain here? Thank you. boundaries. We realize that many citizens are served by more than one elected official, If you will just introduce yourself and then but many residents of rural PEI have only you can proceed, and maybe we’ll have their MLAs to represent their interests and some questions for you at the end. concerns. Ronnie Costain: I’m Ronnie Costain from Our recommendation is to make the least District 25 and I’d like to thank the

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Committee for giving us this opportunity to ministers of the departments. Travel alone present our thoughts this afternoon. I’ll read could be 12 to 16 hours a week. off what we have and then we can go from there. In the last report, for example, District 27, which is one of the most remote districts The District 25 PC Association would like from the capital city, is the fifth largest to recommend that the Committee secure district in the province. The representative current, accurate, up-to-date population from there has at least four hours of travel figures so that they can consider what time each day. Hours spent in travel time impact district boundary changes due to causes the MLAs many late hours trying to population shifts may have for rural represent people who are spread in districts communities in the province: page 72 of the which could range from 200 to 450 Electoral Reform Commission report. kilometres. The District 25 PC Association would also In District 25, depending on where the MLA recommend that the deviation quotient be lives, the same could apply. Enclosed are 25% to be used to the maximum based on statistics which shows kilometres just in the past 10-year history. Eleven provinces of district travel which range in distance from Canada use this as a deviation. If we begin 22.7 kilometres to 478 kilometres. This has with a plus or minus 15%, it will allow for a to be taken into consideration when 10% variance to allow population shifts determining the boundaries. during the next 10 years. District 25 is made up of industries that are This will allow communities of interest to major economic drivers in the province: stay connected in rural parts of Prince farming, fishing, tourism and small business. Edward Island communities. See maps - In District 25, in the new report, it appears communities of interest - O’Leary Fire that the kilometres to travel to work on District, O’Leary Elementary School and behalf of the people could be as high as 500 Bloomfield School District. These kilometres. It presently has 300 kilometres communities all access services in the within its boundaries. There are two fishing village of O’Leary. See page 4 of the ports and 38 farms which are affected on a Interim Report, No. 15. daily basis in regards to new legislation, just to mention a few. District 25 PC Association It is equally important that these would like to also recommend that the communities stay connected as well as the district name and number stay the same. ones in the four urban centres which already have strong organizations that are already We feel that the west Prince districts can be established with these same boundaries: adjusted to stay within the deviation mayors and councillors. according to figures taken from the 29th Annual Statistical Review which shows In west Prince there are 12,000 people who Prince County has not shown a great deal of have no one to lobby for them except their growth: page 275 of the Electoral Reform MLAs. These people live outside the smaller Commission Report dated December 2003. communities. In our district our representatives have to travel three hours a We are recommending that west Prince does day with good road conditions to work on not lose a representative by new changes. behalf of the constituents. This would be at The deviation to as high as 5.9 when for 10 committee meetings, caucus sittings of the years in growth has stayed as close to the House, or many meetings set up with same.

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All districts stayed within the deviation Ronnie Costain: I think we would increase during this period of time except District 25 about, awful near 1,000, the way it’s that went over by a very slight margin of recommended now, wouldn’t we? 25.7 in 2003. Based on information to date, the population has remained stable with a Chair: You would increase close to 1,000, small increase in other districts. okay. We are enclosing a map for your Members, anybody with any questions? consideration which would help keep communities of interest together. Ms. MacDonald: No, it’s pretty straightforward. We are recommending that District 25 as it is today be extended to include the west side Chair: Thank you very much for your of route 12, Cascumpec, and the west side of presentation. Before you leave I got another route 2 from route 12 to the Enmore Road at question I’m going to ask you here on the the water. Enclosed is a letter from the fixed elections. What’s your opinion on people of Cascumpec who say they are more that? Do you believe we should have a connected to the community of O’Leary. referendum to - should we have a referendum? Should we consider increasing We recommend that only minimal it? Or what’s your opinion on that issue? adjustments be made to the boundaries, taking into consideration the Ronnie Costain: My personal opinion recommendations of the adjoining districts. would be, I think, fixed dates, but as a We want to see the deviation for our district committee, we’ve never discussed it, really. be considered around 15% which we feel The boundaries was our main concern. would address the concerns listed above. Ms. MacDonald: So you’d like to see the Chair: Thank you. Any questions? dates fixed? Under the new McQuaid Report, does it tear Ronnie Costain: I think it would be better, your district apart? yes. Ronnie Costain: It doesn’t tear it apart as Ms. MacDonald: Okay. much as it extends it an awful lot. Ronnie Costain: But that’s my own Chair: So you’re not losing anything from personal opinion. That’s not the opinion of your district, you’re just gaining? the committee. Ronnie Costain: I think we’re just gaining, Chair: If there are no other questions from yeah. the members, thank you very much for your presentation. Well done, and it sure gives us Chair: So you’re just gaining? Okay. You some thought for this area. Thank you. would gain geographically a large area? Diane Doyle. Is Diane Doyle here? Ronnie Costain: Quite a large area, yes. Clerk of Committees: She wasn’t Chair: You would go from how many - how scheduled until 2:30. many constituents would you increase? Chair: Okay, we’re running a bit ahead of

7 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 schedule, I guess that’s the reason. Right Diane Doyle: I hope not. now, is there anybody that probably didn’t get booked in that would like to come to the Chair: Actually, we’ve been very good. table and have a few words related to the We’ve been listening. That’s what we’ve boundaries or any concerns? We’ll open up been doing today. So you may proceed. the mike for you and let you have your opinion or whatever you want to have a say Diane Doyle: Okay. Good afternoon. My on it. Don’t everybody jump at once. name is Diane Doyle, and I will be making these comments today on behalf of District If not, we’re still waiting on two people. 27 PC Association. What’s the name? First of all, the McQuaid Report does not Clerk of Committees: Diane Doyle. justify why it recommends renumbering the districts to be totally opposite of how they Chair: Diane Doyle was supposed to be are currently numbered. This will cause here at 2:30 which we’re running a little bit unnecessary confusion for voters. District ahead of schedule, and Mr. Murphy was names should be left as close to what they supposed to be coming. We’ll have a recess are, if possible. Voters are familiar with until they show up. Perhaps we can mingle these names and numbers. around, and if anybody has some comments that you would sooner just talk about The report does not recommend changing one-and-one, we’ll be glad to listen to those the act which allows for an allowable too. So thank you. variance of 25%. We do recognize that some communities will grow over the next 12 [There was a recess] years and some will decline. While most provinces have a 25% allowable variance, Chair: Thank you. Sorry for the delay but their boundaries have been designed with a we had a couple of cancellations so we had 10 to 15% variance. an open space there. Our organization is requesting the new So I’d ask, first, Diane Doyle to come boundaries on PEI reflect a 15% variance. forward, please. This report refers to districts with larger numbers of voters as having reduced access Hi Diane, how are you? to their representative. While we do not agree with this statement, it can be used to Diane Doyle: Good. How are you? justify higher variances outside the capital city. Chair: Very good. Basically, we’re here to listen, our Committee. We’ve been listening MLAs outside of Charlottetown must travel to any concerns or any suggestions that to every committee meeting and every people might have with relation to the caucus meeting, and for those who are boundaries and the McQuaid Report. Also Cabinet members, daily to Charlottetown. Is listening to any questions or any concerns or this not reducing access to our any opinions on the fixed elections. representative? The McQuaid Report states that no one lives more than 160 kilometres So with that, I’ll allow you to do your from the capital and that access is easy presentation. You may have some questions because of the fine system of roads. It is after. obvious that the author of this report has not driven four hours a day to and from work.

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The proposed boundaries completely shatter Diane Doyle: You’re welcome. the communities of interest, especially in Alberton, O’Leary and Tyne Valley areas. Chair: Any questions from any of the Residents are attached to their home members? If not, thank you very much. municipality where they receive their services. This map needs to be redrawn with Diane Doyle: Thank you. local input by those familiar with the area. While we do not want this to become a Chair: That was a nice presentation and rural-urban issue, we cannot lose MLAs thanks very much. from rural PEI to urban centres. Most services in rural PEI are provided by We’ve had a chance to talk with quite a few provincial government, and in many cases people while we had the break. Is there the local MLA is the first point of contact anybody that would like to make any for information on government services. comments based on discussions earlier, or would you like to express an opinion? Come In closing, we feel adopting a 15% variance forward, and if you would tell us your name on new boundaries would serve us well over - the next 12 to 15 years. We hope your Committee will consider this Eileen McCarthy: I’m Eileen McCarthy. recommendation. I’m from District 25. I guess my only observation is we understand that the urban Thank you. areas are growing and we’re staying about the same numbers, and we’re going to lose a Chair: Thank you. What about fixed member because everything is being pushed elections? Do you have any comments or - towards that way. Diane Doyle: I don’t know. I guess my observation is in 10 year’s time, if our numbers change again, do we take Chair: No, that’s fine. I was just asking. another MLA from a rural area to go - We’re trying to get the opinion of people, down, like to stretch them again. Why don’t whether we should be going to fixed we just add two members, if the numbers elections. If we should be having, maybe, a warrant it, and fix it that way? referendum to decide whether we should go to fixed elections or should we stay as it is. Chair: Okay.

Diane Doyle: You mean for every four Mr. Dunn: Good suggestion. years have an election, or every five years? Eileen McCarthy: That’s just my Chair: Yes, instead of going by polls or five observation. Like every 10 years, we years or 3.5 years or three years. Do you understand the urban area is going to grow. have a personal opinion on that? Do we keep taking them from the rural every 10 years to go that way? Diane Doyle: My own opinion would be I think that might be a good idea because Chair: Any other comment? How about people are getting sick of hearing elections fixed elections? What’s your opinion on every year, every second year. Every time fixed elections? you turn around there’s an election. Eileen McCarthy: I was just discussing that Chair: Okay, thank you very much. back there. I wouldn’t want to hold an

9 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 election other than - I wouldn’t want to set a I know it will help Summerside out if we set date maybe. My personal opinion is but decide to move. But if Egmont Bay decides maybe a set date for no sooner than, but I’m to stay the same, then we will likely be - we not sure on the maximum. Like, I just never will be gone, because there will be no way really thought about that yet. that we can keep that district. Chair: All right, thank you very much. Another thing is we know that the cities have been enlarging. Of course, they’ve Eileen McCarthy: Thank you. been enlarging. It’s been enlarging now because where’s all our gas money going Chair: I appreciate your coming forward. that’s come from Ottawa? It goes to the Anybody else? We do have some time. cities. Why wouldn’t people want to move We’re waiting on one more presenter. So if into the cities when they get all - when it’s somebody else would like to make some just as - it’s almost the same thing as Alberta maybe even personal comments on it, we’ll pretty nearly, the way the money wants to gladly accept the - just come forward. Have keep coming into them. Us people in the a seat. Tell us your name for the record. country, I think we buy gas. I’m quite sure we got a little bit of gas to get up here today, James Diamond: James Diamond, District but the country don’t seem to get anything 23. I guess we’re going to be really making out of this here tax racket. a presentation in Summerside tonight but I thought I’d say a few things here today. Other than that, on the fixed elections, I’m not sure just which way I’m leaning to that. As far as these here boundaries go, it’s hard If we get so that we’re American stye, then I for some districts, especially our District 23, would not want it. It would be nice to know which is getting a shit-kicking as far as just what we’re talking about probably where we got to go from one end to the before we start making some decisions here other, as 27, 25 and 26 keep creeping into on fixed elections. Because when you’re - us. We got to lose 1,000 votes at one end the American style, it’s pretty nearly and then we got to try to pick up votes at the election all the time or big dollars being other end. spent. I don’t think we need to go that way. I think we should know where we’re going We know Summerside is strong, probably and then probably we can decide what we’re more than what they need, and we’re not going to do. sure on where Egmont Bay is going. I don’t think anybody seems to know yet just right Thank you. where they’re going, whether they’re going smaller or whether they’re going bigger, or Chair: Okay, thank you very much, James. whether they’re going to stay the same. If Egmont Bay, that District 24, decides to Lloyd Gavin: Hi, Lloyd Gavin, District 27. stay the same, it looks like District 23 will be gone because we won’t have enough I’d just like to emphasize on the 15%. There votes. With losing 1,000 we won’t have should be at least 15 to 25, that’s my enough votes to keep our district as it is. If opinion. That’s one of the main things that Egmont Bay does take a notion that they would help the rural areas. As far as the will go as a distinct society or whatever you fixed election, I think it’d be okay but it want to call it, then probably we can would have to be at least four years or more. maintain our district by taking 1,000 or Thanks. more at the other end.

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Chair: Thank you very much. I appreciate Margaret Adams: We need the your input. Just say your name and representatives we have now. Don’t take introduce yourself we’ll allow you to - them away. Dennis Gallant: My name is Dennis Chair: Thank you. What about the fixed Gallant. I’d like to say that I’d like to see a elections? fixed election date, a minimum of four years, with a certain criteria put into it. I’d Margaret Adams: I don’t know. like to see the 15% variance stay for the boundaries. That’s all I got to say. Chair: Do you have an opinion on that or would you like to express an opinion on Chair: Very good, thank you very much. that? Wade Stetson: Hi, I’m Wade Stetson, Margaret Adams: Before I do anything on District 25 and I’d like to see the 15% anything, I’d like to know what it’s going to variance stayed to keep our rural areas be about. If there’s anything else can take together. place, if you set four years. If something happened, could you have an election before Chair: What about fixed elections? What’s or whatever? your opinion on that? Chair: Okay, thank you very much. I Wade Stetson: Yeah, I’m kind of, I’m not appreciate your opinion. sure - I don’t have an opinion right now. Anybody else before we take a - we have Chair: Okay, that’s fine. Thank you. one more presenter. He’s supposed to be on the way. He actually was scheduled for the Anybody else? We enjoy your input. number one presenter today but due to circumstances he’s been held up. Margaret Adams: I’m Margaret Adams, Apparently, he’s on the way, but - yes, sir, from Elmsdale here, and I don’t agree with come forward. what you’re doing. Alan Graham: This chair must be getting Chair: Okay. pretty warm by now.

Margaret Adams: We’re going to lose a Alan Graham is my name and my concerns member. It’s hard enough now to get are several. First of all, we talk about anything up here without taking away what keeping together communities of interest in we have. We need the 15%, at least, these different districts but we’re dividing variance. Alberton three ways, and I’m not sure that’s keeping a community together in any way, Chair: I think maybe, Mrs. Adams, you shape or form. I’m not really sure what don’t agree with the McQuaid Report, is district to say I’m from when I look at the what you’re saying. revised map that the judge came up with, because, really, Alberton is all over the Margaret Adams: No, I don’t agree with place. his report. Also, the renumbering which a lady Chair: Okay, I just wanted to clarify that. mentioned a few minutes ago, I don’t see any sense in that at all. Like whereas we

11 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 used to start with District 1 at the North Mr. MacFadyen: No, they did reverse Cape area, now it’s going to be at East them, and as the Chair said, they reversed Point. I’m not sure what the reasoning was them back to the way they were before. for that. Is there a reason given anywhere for why the judge thought it should be Alan Graham: So we’ll be still one, then, renumbered the opposite way? part of us. Mr. Dunn: I think the interim report Chair: No, you’ll be district - if you were numbered it one way and then they flipped it 25 before, you’ ll be 25 now, or you could back to the same way it is now. move into 24 or 26, depending on how the boundaries change. But as far as, let’s say, Chair: It’s back to the same numbers again. Tignish is concerned, it will be District 27. It’s not going to change, and the numbering Alan Graham: Oh, okay, so this map is will still stay the same way going down. wrong then? Alan Graham: I still think it would be very Mr. Dunn: There’s two maps there. good to have Alberton and South Kildare and Elmsdale and Northport, the Chair: The interim report’s in here plus the communities that are all one consideration, last report. So you have to go to the last as one district as well, rather than spread out report. Once you get to that, the numbers are as we are on this map that’s here. Like as they were in the past. They haven’t Alberton’s basically split in every direction. changed. Chair: All right. Alan Graham: Okay. Alan Graham: It’s not a good thing. Chair: They were going to change them but there was an outcry on that and they come The other thing about the fixed elections, back with the numbering being the same. from a historical point of view, like the British system is based on the fact that at Mr. MacFadyen: Alan, if you look on page any time you can throw out the government 3. if they’re not doing anything that they’re supposed to. I think that’s a good thing, to Alan Graham: Look on page 3. have that possibility of throwing out the government if they’re not doing their job. If Mr. MacFadyen: That’s the final report. we go to a fixed election on a four-year basis or whatever, then we take away that Alan Graham: Okay. possibility, unless the Lieutenant-Governor steps in and through a special warrant of Mr. MacFadyen: So Alberton-Grand River some sort decides that this government has is 25. gone too far. He does have exceptional powers in that case. Alan Graham: Okay. But I really think before anything is done on Mr. MacFadyen: On the proposed new a fixed election basis, a major study should change. be done of the repercussions that it would have from a historical point of view. Alan Graham: So they are reversing them, then. Chair: That’s what we’re looking for.

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We’re looking for comments and concerns to be one of the main focus points on the and we appreciate you bringing these electoral reform, boundary reforms. concerns forward. Another was the variance level. It appears to Alan Graham: Because I think that over the me that they’re striking for a zero variance years, several times, there have been votes when 25% variance, I think, is acceptable by of non-confidence which have resulted in an law. So I think there’s lots of room there to election before the four year time, manoeuver. This new boundary would be 48 provincially as well as federally. It would kilometres from boundary to boundary, get us into a dangerous situation where if we which would make a huge geographical area sat four years, then regardless of how to cover. incompetent the people were, they’d have to stay for that minimum number of years. Back to the community of interest, I just don’t think that an MLA from Tyne Valley Thank you. would have the Alberton area’s interest at heart or vice versa. I can’t see an MLA from Chair: Okay, thank you very much for your Alberton really having Tyne Valley’s coming forward. interest at heart because there’s no community connection there whatsoever. Pat Murphy, I see you’ve arrived. Thank you. I want to thank everybody that’s come I notice that there is allowance for the forward, too, this afternoon with their views. Evangeline area to be a smaller riding Really appreciate it. I mean, it gives us a because of its Acadian heritage. I think this little more input into what we’re trying to could certainly be looked at for the Tignish find out and your feelings. So thank you riding too. I would assume that there’d be as very much for those who did come forward much Acadian heritage in the Tignish riding off the floor. Much appreciated. Thank you. as there would be in the Evangeline area, which in turn would allow that riding to be a If you’ll introduce yourself, Pat. little bit smaller, too. Pat Murphy: Thank you. I’m Pat Murphy, Actually, while we’re on that topic, I don’t Mayor of Alberton. I’d like to apologize for even know if that’s such a smart thing to be being late. I thought this was next Tuesday doing, basing ridings on origins like that, so I’m not as prepared as I’d like to be but I because where does it stop? I mean, the still have a few things here I’d like to talk natives could be looked at as a single riding, about. Lennox Riding or the one down by Morell there. One of the main points on these reforms was community of interest. I don’t think that I guess that’s pretty well it. I’ll just keep it Alberton and Tyne Valley in the new short since I was holding you up here proposed ridings are really of community of waiting, and again, I apologize for that. But interest to each other because we don’t shop I’d like you to please to note on your way there, they don’t shop here. We don’t back down the highway exactly where the socialize there, they don’t socialize here. We Tyne Valley turnoff is and you’ll see just don’t really have any community connection how big of an area we’re talking about here. whatsoever to Tyne Valley as we would to say, Miminegash, or St. Louis or Elmsdale Thanks a lot. or Northport. There’s no community of interest there and I think that was supposed Chair: Okay, before you leave, I got to put

13 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 you on the spot again on fixed elections. there was a municipal election taking place, Can I have your opinion on what’s your plus there was a provincial election taking feeling on fixed elections? Should we be place. There were six candidates going going every four years or should we be through Montague looking for votes. I’m staying as we are? All we’re asking is campaigning and people were going: Who’s opinions. this? What are you running for? Pat Murphy: My opinion is I think fixed Pat Murphy: That’s right. elections are a good idea because I don’t think it gives either political party an Chair: So I think that may eliminate - if advantage and everybody knows when they there was fixed election, that could eliminate are. I do agree with fixed elections, yes. some of that too. So I don’t know what your thought on that part of it is but I think - Mr. Dunn: (Indistinct) mayor of a town, until - is there some talk that towns may Pat Murphy: Yeah, well, I think - we had look at a longer term for councillors, like the conflict where there’s a provincial and a going from a three-year term to a four-year municipal election. It might also avoid like term? at the federal level this time, when there was an election during the holiday season. I Pat Murphy: We were asked that question don’t know if that could be avoided or not. already, actually, and we decided that we didn’t want - the three-year term was long Chair: Right, okay, thank you very much enough. Pat.

Mr. Dunn: (Indistinct). Pat Murphy: Thank you for the chance for input. Pat Murphy: As far as that, we’re on fixed elections now, as a matter of fact, at the Chair: If there’s nobody else that would municipal levels. It’s every three years. like to say a few words before we wrap - do we have one more? Mr. Dunn: In the fall. Clerk of Committees: (Indistinct). Mr. MacFadyen: Some municipalities are requesting longer terms than three years and Chair: We have one more? some are wanting to go forward. As the mayor says: some want to remain as is. Clerk of Committees: (Indistinct) reconvene tonight. Mr. Dunn: Is it a municipal choice? Chair: If we have no more people that Mr. MacFadyen: It depends on what will would like to speak or say anything, we’re be in the legislation. going to recess. We’ll open up again tonight at 7:30 at the Linkletter Inn in Summerside. Mr. Dunn: Okay, thank you. So if anybody wants to follow along and hear the comments tonight, the Linkletter in Chair: I think one of the things that fixed Summerside at 7:30. elections might do, too, is in my opinion is sometimes when we’re campaigning there’s I thank everyone for attending today, for a town election taking place. I know when I taking some time out of your schedule and ran in 2000, I believe, November of 2000, listening and participating, and we

14 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 appreciate it very much. recommendations which require consultation; Thank you. THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that a Linkletter Inn, Summerside Special Committee of this House be established to be called the Special Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, it is now - I Committee on Prince Edward Island’s got 7:30 by my time. The Special Electoral Boundaries; Committee on Electoral Boundaries is about to begin. It’s Tuesday, March 21, 7:30, here THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER in Summerside. RESOLVED that this committee be comprised of six members, two to be named We have three presenters tonight that are by the Leader of the Opposition, four to be scheduled, and after they’re completed, if named by the Premier; anyone in the audience would like to address the Committee for a short, brief time, you’ll AND THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER be allowed the privilege of coming forth RESOLVED that this Assembly request the also. Special Committee on Prince Edward Island’s Electoral Boundaries meet to Our first presenter tonight is John Curtis, receive opinion and report back to this and John, if you’d like to take the table. I’d House with recommendations. ask the Clerk of Committees to read the motion that we’re dealing with tonight, two The second motion has to do with the issues, and then we’ll proceed. Committee’s mandate on fixed election dates, and the motion reads as follows: Clerk of Committees: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. WHEREAS the Special Committee on Prince Edward Island’s Electoral The first motion has to do with the Boundaries is currently in the process of formation of the Special Committee on organizing a schedule of public Electoral Boundaries. consultations to receive opinions on the issue of electoral boundaries; It was moved by the hon. Premier, seconded by the hon. Provincial Treasurer, the THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that following motion: this Committee expand these hearings in order to gather public input into the WHEREAS section 9 of the Electoral desirability of establishing fixed election Boundaries Act R.S.P.E.I. 1988 Cap. E-2.1 dates on Prince Edward Island. requires a commission to review districts of the province, and make a report to the Chair: Okay. At this time, just to let people Legislative Assembly setting out its know, our Committee is basically here to recommendations as to the area, boundaries listen to anybody that has any concerns with and names of the districts of the province; the McQuaid Report and also the fixed elections. We probably won’t be asking AND WHEREAS the final report of the questions. We’re basically here to listen to PEI Electoral Boundaries Commission has the presentations. There may be the odd been received by the Speaker; question and the members might have a chance to ask questions, but basically we’re AND WHEREAS the report makes here to listen and to make note of your

15 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 recommendations. of the Island’s workforce. I’m demanding the government tell the people in Ontario’s So with that, John, I would ask you if you manufacturing sector who lost their jobs would introduce yourself for the Hansard why there should be an increase in and then proceed with your presentation. equalization payments while politicians on PEI who work part-time receive a pension at John Curtis: My name’s John Curtis. I’m age 55. PEI can’t justify demanding more from Summerside. I wrote down my money when we have too many politicians. presentation, printed it up, and then I’ll give It’s time to reduce the number of Island it to you after I finish. MLAs. Chair: That’s fine. Justice McQuaid looked at electoral boundary changes. He shouldn’t have. It is John Curtis: The Constitution of Canada his duty to interpret the laws, not enact laws. places the onus on the governments to prove Justice McQuaid had to justify PEI having its legislation. I’m openly challenging 27 MLAs before proposing new boundary government to prove why we need 27 changes. It’s time the court stopped MLAs. Our province is top-heavy in deputy pandering to the politicians. Instead of minsters and senior bureaucrats who can having a judge, get a retired judge to do the perform the duties of MLAs. It’s the job. A judge’s job is to enact the law, to see political parties who need 27 MLAs to issue whether it’s fair or not, not go out there - or patronage, whether it’s seasonal a judge’s job, sorry, is to judge the law, not employment or government contracts. enact the law. Don’t make no mistake. I don’t have any The Constitution of Canada places on the problem with MLAs trying to get people government to prove its legislation. So now work, you know, and get their I challenge the government to prove why we unemployment and that, but there’s a can’t have the right to recall politicians if difference. the province goes with a fixed election date of every four years. I’m calling on the I am proposing that our Island have one government to give us, the voters, the right MLA - or, sorry. I’m proposing the to petition the government to bring government have one MLA for every 8,000 politicians who fail to perform their duties people or two MLAs for a county and one of the office in which they were elected. MLA for every 12,000 people. So, in other words, I believe it’s in Kings County they Under 65 (2) a judge can be brought before have the least amount of people. So if you Parliament for not performing the duties to went with two MLAs, like, you designate which he or she was appointed. I filed a them like an assemblyman and a councilman complaint against PEI Supreme Court like it was before, and if you went with that, Justice Jenkins. Jenkins allowed to give the people of Kings County their say, Maintenance and Enforcement to threaten a you give them two council men and one non-custodial parent with an arrest under MLA for every 12,000 people. So either you Section 11 (1) and then refused to recognize go one MLA for every 8,000 people right the right to legal aid under Section 7 of the across the board or two MLAs per county, Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The federal and then one MLA for every 12,000 people. government is now being sued over legal aid for violating Section 7, Section 15 (1), Ontario has lost nearly 80,000 Section 28, of the Charter of Rights and manufacturing jobs, which is nearly the size Freedoms. I’m moving against Justice

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Jenkins. the Auditor General releasing Cabinet documents regarding Polar Foods. The If you can recall a Supreme Court Justice, Supreme Court of Canada recently upheld then you can recall a politician. If I can get the right for the media to report on Justice Jenkins before Parliament, I’m information used by police to obtain a going to knock the pedestal right out from search warrant. The purpose was for under his feet. openness and accountability. Islanders have an inherent trait: We don’t admit making So in order to recall politicians I’ve got to mistakes or when we are wrong. justify the right to recall politicians. So I have a few examples. There is a committee in Nova Scotia looking into government money involving a friend The province charged Leslie MacKay for of Premier Hamm and his friend’s importing seed potatoes from Maine. Judge amusement park. So, if one province can Nancy Orr ruled the province overstepped look at the financial dealings, then so should federal jurisdiction. The province PEI, not hide behind legislation. If the complained about the Americans and potato Auditor General hadn’t released the wart, yet they tried to obstruct Americans documents he did, there wouldn’t be themselves. openness and accountability. The province has to prove that keeping Cabinet The province has been found to violate its documents secret for 20 years is patronage legislation. The Premier appoints constitutional. In my opinion, it’s not. In the Attorney General and yet no one in the Alberta, what’s-his-name does it for five. Attorney General’s office has taken legal They keep their Cabinet documents for five action to sue the politicians and their years. political parties for their part in throwing people out of work because of their politics. Another reason for recall is not having a It’s the taxpayers who are left paying the police commission. Again, the Supreme damages, the legal fees and courts costs, Court of Canada ruling on the media’s right instead of the culprits. It’s time to take legal to report on information police use to obtain action against the politicians and the a search warrant. The RCMP Complaints political parties to recover the costs on Commission has taken the RCMP to federal behalf of the taxpayers. When you do that, court for refusing to overturn information then we won’t get into this political used to obtain a search warrant, and thereby discrimination lawsuit. prevent the police commission from investigating a complaint filed against the Because you see, in all fairness, when you RCMP. guys came in power, the Liberals there still had an ongoing lawsuit there over that truck , who was the Attorney driver there. Okay? Then I think the Liberals General, knows about a complaint I filed paid out something like a half million bucks after former Summerside Police Chief to Hooley. Well, they should have gone and George Arsenault ordered an investigation paid the half million bucks, not us, the of me for defamatory libel in which the taxpayer. See what I’m saying? In these Summerside police used a search warrant. political discrimination lawsuit, the No charges were ever laid. I went to the Conservatives should be paying for it, not RCMP and I was told I couldn’t be charged us, the taxpayer. with defamatory libel. Both the Summerside Police and Hammond refused disclosure of The Binns government complained about obstructing the administration of justice.

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We don’t have a police commission. The Conservative, New Democrat, Reform and Supreme Court of Canada ruled Canada is Independent. I have nothing but the utmost not a police state. There is no openness and contempt for Canada’s undemocratic accountability. That’s the duty of a parliamentary system of democracy. I raised politician to ensure that. the same issue of recalling politicians when the Liberals were in power. The committee I appeared before a government committee was chaired by Alan Buchanan. on human rights chaired by . I wanted the right to legal aid for Mental There’s one other thing. What are you going Health Review Board Hearings entrenched to do with the money when you drop the into legislation. The Conservatives, like the number of MLAs? This isn’t my opinion, Liberals before them, refused. The Liberals but this was a lady - she wrote a letter to the in 1993 repealed legislation to have a PEI editor, and she wrote about our education Supreme Court Justice as chairperson of the system. My daughter was in the school Mental Health Review Board. According to system, and frankly, I’d like to turn around the information I had, Wayne Cheverie was and kick some of those teachers, but I can’t. a Liberal MLA at the time. Now, he’s a PEI Supreme Court Justice. What this lady here was talking about, she was wanting the government to spend more Here’s one. This one ripped me. The money, hiring school psychologists for our Conservatives raised the legal age of a students with learning disabilities. She was person with mental disabilities from age 18 also talking about parents’ financial burden to 25. The government was trying to force a of 1,300 to $1,500 to have private person to take medical treatment. The assessments done. She said that there’s one Supreme Court of Canada made a ruling on registrar for over 14,000 students in the a person’s right to refuse medical treatment, Eastern School District. Nationally, it’s also defining the rules for a person to be recommended you have one psychologist for medically incapacitated. The raising of the every 1,000 students. legal age, that was dirty. You have to have legal aid to protect people. Okay, she made this point: 1% gain in the average literacy skill level in Canada would You, the politicians and the government, create a permanent increase of $18.4 billion have to prove the need for 27 MLAs, and I in Canada’s gross domestic product. don’t care if Islanders go crying: We need 27 MLAs. There are 80,000 people in Islanders, we live in a box, and all that we Ontario who lost their jobs and Islanders are see is Prince Edward Island. Well, it’s time demanding more money from them, while to grab someone and tell them to give their most of our politicians work part-time. The head a shake. To go with any less than one ability to recall a judge before Parliament MLA for every 8,000 people is ridiculous. for not performing his or her duties opens It’s time you guys -, government is $33 the way for us, the voter, to recall politicians million in deficit, which actually added $17 for not performing their duties. The Island’s million to the debt. So if you can’t do the poor legal system, standard mental health, job - and it’s not just you guys. There’s $1.3 lack of police commission, government billion worth of debt. The guys before you, misusing of Attorney General’s Office, are whether it be the Liberals and the reasons to recall politicians. Conservatives before you, they didn’t do their job either. But that’s also our For the record, these are my opinions which responsibility because a lot of people fought I have expressed. I have voted Liberal, against it.

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But anyway, I don’t want to ramble on. I’ve The proposed distribution would eliminate a made my point and I have it here. I want to complete district and we feel it is imperative reduce the number of MLAs and I want the that the people of Prince County continue to right to recall a politician. have five elected MLAs west of Summerside. The reasoning for this is that One other thing. For 50 years they had the as a mostly rural community, we do not Prince County Family Services Bureau and have, for the majority of the area, the benefit that’s going down. Well, that’s your district, of incorporated municipal councils, and that ma’am. If I had the right to vote in that, I’d there will be no clear voice for the concerns recall you right now. of the population of Prince County west of Summerside. Chair: Thank you very much, John, for your presentation. We propose the following: John Curtis: You’re welcome. District 23, in order to accommodate the maintaining of five MLAs west of Lorraine Robinson, that’s our next presenter. Summerside, finds itself with having a number of polls reallocated to Districts 25 Lorraine Robinson: Good evening. My and 26, in order to meet the mean average of name is Lorraine Robinson and I’m here 3,600 voters per district as is the representing District 23, Cascumpec-Grand recommended number in the McQuaid River. Report. In order to do this, we have declined in number of voters by 1,000 as an average. Chairperson Jim Bagnall, members of the Special Committee, thank you for the To make up this differential, we propose the opportunity this evening to present District following: 23 Cascumpec-Grand River’s position on the recommendations contained in the Evangeline-Miscouche, District 24, be Report of the PEI Electoral Boundaries declared a protected district. We feel that Commission, submitted on October 5, 2004, this provides the respect this region deserves chaired by the Honourable Justice John A. based on its cultural and linguistic diversity. McQuaid. This is allowable under Electoral Boundaries Commission Act (1991), section The district has kept in the mind the 15, 2(a) and (b). requirements under legislation for the need to have parity and equity of value of By designating Evangeline-Miscouche a individual vote throughout its deliberations protected district, we would then in it preparation of this submission. With recommend that the following polls from this in mind, we will comment on the District 24 be reassigned to District 23. Poll recommendations: 7 Miscouche West, Poll 8 Miscouche East, Poll 9 Slemon Park. Recommendation 1: We do agree with a 27 district distribution. As well, we would see the need to move into District 22 St. Eleanors-Summerside, which Recommendation 2: We do not agree with would reduce the numbers presently in this this recommendation as it pertains to the district - but this district is one which is over existing District 23 for the following and needs to be reduced -, by reassigning reasons. Poll 1 West Drive, Poll 2 Darby Drive, Poll 3 Linkletter

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By this redistribution of polls in District 24 Recommendation 10: We agree with this and District 22, we would make up the loss recommendation, as it would ensure current of 1,000 voters - reallocated to Districts 25 and update voters’ lists. and 26 - reduce the numbers in District 22, and with District 24 as a protected district, Recommendation 11: We agree with this District 23 would have approximately 4,000 statement. voters under this proposal, which falls well within the plus or minus numbers. On the variance issue, we recommend a variance of plus or minus 15% and feel that Recommendations 3, 4, 5 and 6, are this is a fair recommendation given the housekeeping issues which would need to be small population base of this province carried out with the changes and we do not combined with a 27-seat Legislature. oppose these. This would allow for representation as we Recommendation 7: We agree with this have recommended, and when you look at recommendation and are strongly in favour the proposed McQuaid distribution of of not having this process any more districts, what we have is 5% of the land frequently than every 10 years. mass making decisions for the remaining 95% of the land mass in this province, and Recommendation 8: We do not agree with as a province which has as major industries this recommendation for the following farming, fishing and forestry, we feel it is reasons: imperative to have MLA representation to the optimum number we have We do not feel that the community of recommended. interests were clearly understood by the McQuaid Commission and feel that urban Fixed term elections: District 23 feels that and rural representation from across the fixed term elections are worthy of whole province be applied to the next discussion and would recommend that at the commission even if it means increasing the next provincial election there be a question number of commissioners to ensure an east- on the ballot to address this issue and get the west representation. public’s view on this issue. Recommendation 9: We do not agree with On behalf of District 23, thank you for the this recommendation. We feel that there has opportunity this evening to express our already been enough time and expense put views. into this process, and to have the Chief Electoral Officer of this province engage in Thank you. a wide public consultation on poll distribution will be a very lengthy and costly Chair: Thank you very much, Lorraine. Is process. We would recommend that the there anybody who has any questions or Chief Electoral Officer prepare poll concerns that they would like to bring boundaries and recommend their forward to Lorraine? You’re probably not composition to the Legislature. The issue of going to get many questions - polls within the districts is an administrative matter. The bigger issue is the district lines, Lorraine Robinson: That’s fine. and once these have been determined, how the polls within the district lines are Chair: - because we’re here to listen more determined are part of the administrative than we are to ask questions. function of ensuring polls are established.

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Lorraine Robinson: No, that’s fine. system. But alas, the games began. Here we are, wasting time, money, and I daresay Chair: Okay, thank you very much for the political capital. I describe some of this in a presentation, well done. further part of my submission later on that I will be giving to your Committee. Lorraine Robinson: You’re welcome. Then, Mr. Chair, I woke up this morning to Chair: Elmer Williams. hear you on the CBC radio referring to the area or the district that you were elected to If you would introduce yourself, Elmer, and represent in our Legislature, as: My district, then we can - my riding, my voters, my area. You were lamenting the fact that Kings County would Elmer Williams: I’m Elmer Williams and be losing seats in the Legislature. I have I’m here tonight to represent myself. always believed that democracy is about the government of people, for the people, by the Chair: Okay, that’s fine. people, and, Mr. Chair, this morning it seemed to me that you had forgotten that Elmer Williams: I appeared before the you represent the people of your district in McQuaid Commission, and as I go through which you serve. my presentation, which I’ll give to the Clerk of Committees when I’m finished, you’ll It is also about the people across the Island understand some of my frustrations. who must be treated equally. We’ve had enough of living under a 50% variance in I want to thank you, Mr. Chair, and electors. We’ve had our fill of politicians Committee members for hearing me out this trying to pit urban citizens against rural evening, although I can’t say that I’m folks. The fact is that this is all about pleased to be appearing before you this fairness. Perhaps it would be easier to evening. You see, under normal change things if we looked at the federal circumstances I’m a Tory, and mostly I ridings instead of looking at as in counties. support the policies of my party, but not this Because in Kings, down the other side of time. Charlottetown, a lot of the population shift is actually going to Stratford. So if you leave To me, the report tabled by Mr. Justice John it with Cardigan, you might be able to live McQuaid on electoral boundaries was a real with it a little better. breath of fresh air. I had taken the time to submit my thoughts to that committee, and I As for the last minute attempt to make this must say that when the report came out, it Committee work by adding the fixed was exactly what I had proposed, and I was election dates to the mix, I believe that that real pleased with myself. But my feelings of issue must be dealt with by asking the genius were short-lived when I discovered question on a ballot during the next that the McQuaid Report in large part provincial election. reflected what was in an earlier decision by Mr. Justice Jenkins in his response to a court Now, getting back to the electoral challenge under our Charter of Rights and boundaries question, I now wish to speak Freedoms. directly to our premier, Mr. Binns. I submitted this as a letter to the Editor but I was still pleased, however, with the report, they gussied it up and changed it and lost and when I received my copy, since I was a some of the flavour, so it’s part of my presenter, it sort of restored my faith in the report. I entitled it: Ghiz Has Got It Right.

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Mr. Premier, you have got it all wrong! farmers’ fields. They now vote in the You’ve had it wrong from the get-go as you Evangeline area which makes absolutely so attempt to forestall the implementation of sense. I think it’s time they were sort of the McQuaid Report on electoral taken into the fold, and the McQuaid Report boundaries. This time, the Honourable does that. Leader of the Opposition has got it right. Democracy is about we, the people, and in They certainly must find it hard to my book representation by population is the understand why they cannot vote for a heart and soul of our democratic system. Summerside MLA. And I can assure you that the people in the former community of Earlier, a presenter said something about a Wilmot are not happy to find themselves as land mass. I don’t think we’re too concerned part of Summerside, being represented in the about the land mass. If you look up to the Legislature by a Kensington MLA. Yukon and Northwest Territories, there’s an awful lot of land represented by one person, If the McQuaid Report is put in place, but anyway. Summerside picks up one full, brand-new Legislative Assembly seat. I have worked As I observe this dance taking place, it’s for years as a political worker. You must becoming clear to me that the premise for understand the job it’s going to be to put a the ill-fated MPP proposal was little more brand new executive in place for an area that than an expensive attempt to delay the doesn’t feel it belongs to anybody. Under obvious. When the Yes side became the new McQuaid Report, if you look at the energized, the Premier took steps to raise the map in the book, Wilmot gets treated fairly: bar, thereby attempting to protect the status they’re included. Summerside, the mess the quo. Liberals made of amalgamation finally gets put together half sensibly when we have our Mr. Premier, when the proposed MPP idea, own three MLAs. Then surely some premier which was based on voodoo arithmetic, was will find it in his heart to seek us out a handily rejected by the people, I assumed Cabinet minister from those three. That will that you would immediately move to be three out of 27, one-ninth. There’s nine in implement the McQuaid Report without the Cabinet. My arithmetic tells me we’ll further delay. But alas! It seems you don’t probably get a full-fledged Cabinet minister, get it. which might or might not help. This is a little outdated. It says: Mr. Premier, your stated concern for Alberton area is further weakened given the Recently you stated concern for the town of fact that Prince County will retain the seven Alberton. Now, that’s weak at best. Your seats it now has in the Legislature. I suspect, concern, Mr. Premier, must and should be Mr. Premier, that your reluctance to move for the people across this province. You on this matter has more to do with the fact could ask yourself about the folks in my that Kings County will lose approximately community of Summerside, where the one and one-half seats under the McQuaid residents of Slemon Park feel isolated from Report. the rest of the city as it is. I don’t know what the fuss is about having You see, Mr. Chairman, and members of the more seats in Kings County. Under the Committee, Slemon Park is a little Liberal government you had ‘Ax’ residential area of the former airbase that’s MacAulay, who was the grand guru and ran separated from our city physically with everything. Under the present government

22 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 you’ve got Peter McQuaid, who can’t get spoke. I feel there are too many politicians elected but he runs the place. And it hasn’t for the hundred and some odd thousand done you any good, Mr. Chairman, because people that represents this place. I think that people are fleeing and moving to the cities. probably eight to 10, 12 people probably, at And those are the facts. the very most, to represent the people of Prince Edward Island. I say let’s get it done without further delay. After all, the report, based on a ruling by I also agree with having a fixed election Mr. Justice Jenkins of the Supreme Court of date. Prince Edward Island, demands further review down the road. So we can always There’s something else that I would like to take another look at it. see implemented. I don’t feel any politician should run any longer than two terms. I feel Please, Mr. Premier, no more studies, no that would be adequate, and it should give more reviews. Please ignore the someone else a chance to field their ideas as protestations of third-term MLAs as they representing the people. I don’t know how attempt to cling to power by way of a the Legislature works, whether you fellows seriously flawed system. We do not live in as representatives, when you have to vote on Texas. Forget the gerrymandering. something that comes up in the Legislature, whether you vote your conscience, do you It’s time to set the wheels in motion to vote as the people that elected you, or how implement the McQuaid Report. you vote. I have no idea. It is time to respect the rule of law. Those are just a few things I had on my mind and thought I’d pass them on. I submit this as respectfully as I can under the circumstances, and I thank you for your Chair: Thank you very much. time. Have a seat, sir, and let us have your name Thank you. for the Hansard. Chair: Thank you very much. Greg Guptill: My name is Greg Guptill and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to That’s our scheduled presenters for tonight. speak. Is there anybody that’s with us tonight that would like to come to the table and address I’m not really prepared, but I do have a the Committee? specific point I’d like to make. I did take some time to background myself. I’m Welcome, and have a seat. If you’d representing myself. introduce yourself, sir? Chair: Okay. Ross Harrington: Good evening, members of the legislative committee. My name is Greg Guptill: No organization, no entity, Ross Harrington. just me. I took some time to background myself. I never prepared anything. I just happened to be in here this evening and I thought I’d air I read I believe we’d call it the interim a few things that I had on my mind. I’m report, or would it be the final report, the something like the first gentleman that most recent report that was published on the

23 Electoral Boundaries 8 March 2006 web site? days to gather the necessary number of signatures. One was very close but the Chair: The McQuaid Report. nineteenth, there was one that was successful in gaining the right amount of Greg Guptill: Yes. support. Rather than the process going to completion, the politician that was in the Chair: That’s the final report. process of about to be recalled, he actually resigned. That speaks well for the Greg Guptill: I think it’s quite well done, circumstance. I have no idea what the actually, in a nutshell. circumstance was, but it keeps the politician totally responsible to the electorate. Fixed However, another part of the agenda here term without recall: disaster. this evening has to do with fixed term elections. I believe we should move forward I have one more suggestion having to do with that as aggressively and as rapidly as with recall. In order to be an eligible possible. However, I do agree with I think it signator - if that’s the right word - in a was two speakers prior to me here this recall scenario, one, in my opinion, should evening that said it should be put forward be established in such a way that that person perhaps as part of the next provincial would have to earn the right. How does the election. I would strongly recommend that person earn the right other than by being a that be in the form of a referendum. In other citizen of the specific piece of geography or words, the public cast the ballot, the whatever for whatever length of time? They decision is made by the public. If they want earn the right by having voted. The Chief fixed term, terrific. Electoral Officer knows whether Mr. Jim Bagnall voted or not in the last election, However, my main reason for being here knows whether Greg Guptill voted or not in this evening is to express some serious the last election. Let’s just presume that I concern pertaining to the possibility of there did not vote in the last election. What right being fixed term elections without recall. I would I have, in your opinion, to be a think fixed term without recall will lead to signator on a recall action? disasters. Now, how do you prevent the disasters? You implement recall. That’s my point. Thank you for your time. Now, I’m not here to propose a specific Chair: Thank you. We still have some time. formula for that. I haven’t dug into it deeply Anybody else interested in addressing the enough. There’s a lot of reference material Committee? The floor is open at the present on the Internet, web site, what have you, time. about it. There’s all kinds of history as to how it’s being handled in British Columbia, If not, thank you very much for coming Washington State, California, and so forth. tonight, and I would ask for an adjournment. There is a lot of reference material talking Mr. MacFadyen: So moved. about the weakness of the BC system and how it’s designed for failure. Case in point: Chair: So moved. since being instituted in 1997 there have been 19 recall petitions filed in British The Committee adjourned Columbia. Of the 19, 17 died for lack of support. In the case of BC, from the date that you file the petition you have just 60

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