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Oral History Section nla.oh-003296-0000-000 ORAL HISTORY SECTION Recorded interview with KIRBY, MICHAEL b. Interviewer: Coleman, Peter Date of interview: 08 July 1995 Conditions of Access 1 nla.oh-003296-0000-000 NOTE TO READER Readers of this interview transcript should bear in mind that this is a verbatim transcript of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The National Library of Australia is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views therein. Some editing of the transcript, including additional material in the form of footnotes and endnotes, may have occurred at the request of the person interviewed. Please note that the printed word can never convey all the meaning of speech, and may lead to misinterpretation. It is strongly recommended that readers listen to the sound recording whilst reading the transcript, at least in part, or for critical sections. 2 nla.oh-003296-0000-000 KIRBY, MICHAEL Interviewed by Coleman, Peter Peter Coleman: It is July the 8th, in the President's Chambers, in the Supreme Court of New South Wales. Peter Coleman talking with Michael Kirby, just to get that identification on the tape. Michael Kirby: We're having a nice cup of English tea. Peter Coleman: Yes. Well, we could discuss the weather but I think we're supposed to explore the mind of Michael Kirby, which is more interesting even than the weather. Michael Kirby: It might be more stormy. Peter Coleman: May I begin with a question? There seem to be at least two Michael Kirbys- there no doubt are many- but at least two: one is the lawyer trained in if not solving problems then settling disputes as best as is possible and the other Michael Kirby who sees if not insoluble problems then tremendous difficulties, the more pessimistic Michael Kirby as opposed to the optimistic problem solver. Is that right, that there are these two, and if this is so which is winning at the moment? Michael Kirby: Oh, I'm optimistic. I don't know that the part of me that is not the purely professional lawyer, judge, is unduly pessimistic. Otherwise I'm sure I would probably not spend a lot of time on things that I felt were completely insoluble. But you're probably right that there is a certain schizophrenia there. A lot of my life is just spent as a judge, as a lawyer sitting in court solving problems. That is quite satisfying in the sense that it's my legitimacy, it's my daily bread, it's my work pattern and it's something I can do and I do pretty well. It's something which has a beginning, a middle and an end. Case-by-case they pass through the process and they are decided, one way or the other, I hope rightly and justly. Michael Kirby: But then my other activities open my mind to a broader vista. I heard a very interesting thing at the Dalai Lama's meeting in New Delhi which I have just come from which gave me an insight into myself. The point that was being made by one of the commentators was that as the world becomes more and more specialised we are increasingly alienated from the world. That as we 3 nla.oh-003296-0000-000 narrow our mind into the very small focus of our particular profession we are divorcing ourselves from the variety, complexity and magnificence of the world. It then occurred to me that perhaps my endeavours to be interested in a whole range of other things is a quest for harmony with the world as it is, which harmony can't always be given by the law which is rather narrowing in some respects. So, I'm not pessimistic, I'm interested. Peter Coleman: I was interested in what you said about complexities because in a number of your papers- not exclusively legal but with a heavily legal flavour always inevitably- your papers on journalism, on biotechnology, on parliamentarians, on the Republican movement, and a number of the issues in which you have concerned yourself, you have been very critical, sometimes it seems justifying at least a suspicion of pessimism if not the accurate description. Your comments on the media are very sceptical. Michael Kirby: But I hope constructive. I feel I was very greatly influenced in my early life by my religious upbringing. By my upbringing as an Anglican in the Sydney Dioceses. By the fact that as a small boy I went to a Methodist Church because to go to the Anglican Church involved crossing Parramatta Road which was regarded as too dangerous, though in all truth it had a trickle of traffic in comparison to today. Michael Kirby: But I grew up in a strong Protestant tradition and a sort of Methodist-type tradition of trying to improve the world and improve myself as part of improving the world. So, though I am critical of things, and they include institutions such as parliament and the media, I hope that my criticism is directed to trying to point ways in which maybe it will be possible to improve things, as for example by a greater parliamentary attention to the real issues of society and not just to the current entertainment. Michael Kirby: And similarly with the media, a greater diversity of opinion. There is a Stalinist element in some parts of the media at the moment which will not tolerate points of view that are contrary to the perceived orthodoxy. I don't like that at all and I suppose it is my Methodism that is bringing out in me... Peter Coleman: Have you yourself suffered from that Stalinism, and I know you're using the word loosely to mean authoritarian intolerance. Have you suffered from that where they haven't given you a fair go? 4 nla.oh-003296-0000-000 Michael Kirby: I don't really think so. I mean, I'm not by any means a major media performer and therefore I'm not really out there in front-line. I imagine others feel this more acutely than I because I'm, to be honest, really not particularly questing for media attention. It is something that tends to come with a speech or an address or this or that or an article but it's not something I'm sort of going out for. Michael Kirby: I did in the Law Reform Commission because it was part of the job. If I thought I had something useful to say I'm not unhappy if it's covered in the media. Sometimes I positively say to my staff, 'Now, that essay might be of interest to a news editor for an article' and they might take an excerpt. So, to that extent I'll put it forward if I think it's useful and of general interest. But I'm not, like a politician is, out there, anxious about their media 'image'... Peter Coleman: His daily quota? Michael Kirby: or whether there are enough photographs of me in the paper this month. That's not my bag. Peter Coleman: But the point I had in mind was that when one reads a number of your papers at once and you see that you run through the social authorities that most people look to, whether it's the parliament or the press or science- I don't know that you've had so much to say about the church or so much critical to say about the church- to some extent the judiciary, but no, not that either. Peter Coleman: It often seems that one of the few fields that you think is capable of giving a lead is the judiciary, is our lawyers. You don't seem to have too much confidence in parliamentarians or journalists or scientists, possibly lawyers and churchmen; I'm not sure. I'm just taking two groups that you haven't been very critical of. Michael Kirby: Well, I haven't said much about churchmen because I really don't put myself forward as a particularly strong churchman. I say my prayers. My religion is a personal and private thing to me. Two of my colleagues, Justices Handley and Sheller, are at the moment at the Anglican Synod so they are much more able to speak for the churches than I do. I am just a private citizen and Anglican. But the judiciary, well, I think there is a role in the judiciary and I think it has in Australia, in recent years, tended to shoulder that role. I think it should continue to do so. I believe the people generally do trust judges and though many are boring and many are very orthodox and some are racist and conservative, by and large, according to their lights they are striving to do the right thing. I think that's a good aspect 5 nla.oh-003296-0000-000 of our institutions. Michael Kirby: I do get discouraged by the level of political debate and that is a sort of symbiosis between banal politicians and second-rate media often. But I do believe in both the institutions of parliament and of the media and I hope that my comments are directed towards something constructive by trying to bring parliament back to be a real place of debate and community opinion and representation and diversity of community opinion, tolerance of diversity and the media as something more than the sort of CNN world in which we are increasing entering which I find really discouraging.
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