Regional Oral History Office University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California Alice B. Toklas (1877-1967) The Bancroft Library Interview Interviews conducted by Roland Duncan in 1952 Copyright © 2012 by The Regents of the University of California Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ********************************* This manuscript is made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/collections/cite.html It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Alice B. Toklas, (1877-1967) The Bancroft Library Interview conducted by Roland Duncan in 1952, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2012. Alice B. Toklas, left, with her companion Gertrude Stein and their dog Basket II, near Belley, France, ca. 1941. Photo courtesy of The Bancroft Library. v Table of Contents—Alice B. Toklas Audio Reel 1 1 An account of Gertrude Stein’s family and upbringing—Stein’s family in Europe and in the San Francisco Bay Area—Stein’s early love for books—A dinner party at the home of Professor Alfred North Whitehead—More on Stein’s literary interests—Attempting to bring books into Spain—Stein’s education at Radcliffe, influence of William James and others—Early lack of interest in literary criticism—Stein’s medical school education at Johns Hopkins—Stein’s early interest in painting and prints, including Chinese art— Stein’s childhood adventures in the East Bay hills—Toklas’s opinion of Jack London— Gertrude Atherton, the Sequoia Club, and Stein’s 1935 literary tour of the United States Audio Reel 2 14 Gertrude Stein and her siblings, and establishing a trust for their income—Meeting Stein in Paris in 1907—Comparing Stein to Pablo Picasso and Juan Gris—On Stein’s writing process, and little need for editing—The summer home outside of Belley, France (1928- 1942)—Toklas’s first travel to Europe—The Toklas residence at 922 O’Farrell Street in San Francisco—Visits to Monterey, California—Toklas’s family history Audio Reel 3 27 Thoughts on the Stein family—Contesting contemporary notions of “cultural opportunities”—Stein’s East Bay—Stein’s reaction upon visiting her childhood home upon her return to the States in the 1930s—Stein’s happy childhood and difficult adolescence—The importance of reading to Stein—Stein becoming an outsider upon moving to the east coast after the death of her mother—Gertrude and Leo Stein’s interest in art, especially Chinese art and Tuscan Renaissance furniture—Spanish architecture and Spanish colonial architecture—Stein’s love of gardens—Stein’s admission to Radcliffe— Stein’s initial inspiration to begin writing—Stein’s interest in grammar and structure— Leo Stein’s travels in Asia—More on the Stein family and The Making of Americans Audio Reel 4 43 On Stein’s mother—Stein’s family background—Stein’s experience in medical school— Medical service in the First World War—More on meeting Gertrude Stein and her siblings—On Toklas’s parents—Flower arranging—The death of Toklas’s mother—On becoming a cook and food rations during wartime—Instruction in the arts as a child— Visits to the Monterey Bay area—Visit to Yosemite and Sequoia National Parks—On Senorita Bonafacio and her home—On William Randolph Hearst and Phoebe Hearst— The farming background of the Toklas family Audio Reel 5 61 Developing an interest in modern art—Comparing literary interests with those of Stein— Stein’s sense of the English language—The sequoia—Music and theater in pre-1906 San Francisco, and the French influence in San Francisco—West Coast literature, including The Lark , The Wave, and The Argonaut—On Mexico, Alaska, and native arts—The 1906 earthquake and fire in San Francisco, and how it would change the city—Decision to move to Paris in 1907—Impressions of Parisians and Paris—Comparing France to Spain Audio Reel 6 79 On “Culturing” and the process (and fallacy) of acquiring culture—Attending the University of Washington—The shock of the First World War and the ensuing deprivations—Assisting the Americans and French in France during the First World War—General lack of interest in politics, including thoughts on the Japanese and Chinese in California—On being American expatriates—More on Professor Whitfield and his circle—The First World War and the Battle of Marne—On The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas—Stein’s selective memory Audio Reel 7 94 Recollection of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire—Toklas’s instruction in the arts, and pre-fire cultural life in San Francisco—Attending Miss Lake’s School in San Francisco, remembering classmates—Moving to Paris in 1907 with Harriet Levy—Some reminiscences of Paris—Physical descriptions of Stein and Picasso—Harriet Levy’s return to San Francisco—Going to live with the Steins—Fiesole and Florence, Italy— Impressions of the United States on her return in 1935 Audio Reel 8 111 Toklas’s and Stein’s chihuauas—The German Occupation of France during the Second World War, and the decision to remain in France at Belley—Return to Paris in 1942, discovery that the Germans had stolen items from the apartment—Move from the apartment on the rue de Fleurus to one located on the rue Christine. More on the return to the United States in the 1930s—The dissolution of the relationship between Leo and Gertrude Stein INTERVIEW WITH ALICE B. TOKLAS Reel 1 Alice B. Toklas: The father had ideas about education, but you can get that all in the autobiography. That's all written. I have very little to add to what she wrote about her family and all. But the father was very keen on education and changed his mind about what kind it should be, very frequently. He was impatient and mercurial. Roland Duncan: And very volatile. Toklas: Yes. So that in the beginning she was taken to Europe because he wished the children to have a European education. Of course, she was in arms. She was the youngest, and so she was a baby when they took her over. Duncan: About how old was she at that time? Toklas: I think she was yet under a year old. Duncan: That was the first trip to Europe? Toklas: Yes, they stayed over four years so that she was nearly five when they came back to Baltimore, and they had spent four years in Vienna and one year in Paris, and she remembered Paris. Duncan: From that early time? Toklas: Yes. She was five years old and had been put in a day school and didn't like spinach because she was forced to eat it and didn't like the little French girls because she couldn't understand them, of course. You know how a child doesn't like something she can't understand and so she didn’t like the French children. She remembered her mother's riding in the Bois de Boulogne. Her mother was very fond of horseback and she rode here. And then the father came over and brought them back to America. Duncan: About what time was that? Toklas: She was born in ‘73 and five years after would have been – ‘78. About that vaguely. I am not calculating absolutely. Duncan: But her experience with Europe then was very early? Toklas: It was early but still it made its mark upon her because she spoke German and she spoke French a little bit. She learned enough to patter 1 in French, you see. So that when she finally had to have a language for her entrance at Radcliffe, for which she was not at all prepared because she had never finished high school, she gave up high school to go and read, when her mother, at first, and then her father, had died. They moved to San Francisco while Mike Stein was settling the estate. He was the oldest brother. He was the only one, I think, who was not a minor. (That couldn't quite be.) Well, I don't know definitely. The sister, Bertha, and the brother, Kahn, must have been already of age. But Leo wasn't yet. Nor Gertrude. Gertrude was 17. Duncan: That's at the time they first moved? Toklas: When they moved from Oakland – East Oakland – to San Francisco.