A Socialist in Stormont

An interview with Gerry Carroll MLA

Irish Marxist Review interviews Gerry I went to St John the Baptist primary Carroll of Belfast People Before Profit who, school, and then to St Mary’s Christian together with Eamonn McCann for Foyle, Brothers Grammar school. I liked my time was recently elected as an MLA in Stormont. at both. I suppose I wasn’t a star pupil. In IMR: Could you begin by telling us a fact I know I wasn’t. I was more into foot- bit about yourself and your upbringing ball and music. But I learnt enough to get etc. by, and I am very grateful for that. My only regret is I didn’t stick at learning the Irish Gerry Carroll: I was born in West Belfast language, which is a big part of West Belfast and raised in the Andersonstown area. I am since its revival in the last few decades. I the second eldest in a family of seven chil- have been going to classes in recent years to dren. My father worked as a coal man and a try and make up for it. black taxi driver when I was growing up. My mother worked in the house and later as a IMR: How did you first get involved in classroom assistant in the local school when politics? she went back to work. It was a big family, Gerry Carroll: My family were largely re- always someone to play with, and usually publican in political persuasion, and some more than one to argue with. of my relatives were in involved in Sinn I was born in 1987 and grew up at the Féin. Some still are. Had I been born tail end of the troubles. I am old enough ten years earlier maybe I would have joined to remember the British Army patrolling them. Who knows? But by the time I was a the streets, and can remember our primary teenager the radical gloss had gone off Sinn school being evacuated after a bomb scare Féin. Maybe not completely, but that was was reported. Stuff like that was just nor- the sense. This didn’t come from some sort mal, and I’m not sure I was old enough to re- of sophisticated analysis. It was just your ally comprehend it. I didn’t have any other experience. You would see them on TV in experience to compare it to. But my for- suits, and then you would see them at the mative years were after the ceasefires. I can weekend, trying move you on from street remember hundreds of cars driving up and corners. Whether or not they were part of down the Andytown Road with tricolours the establishment, they certainly felt like the when the IRA called a ceasefire. It was like establishment in the area. There was a gap a big party in the area. growing between the party and young peo- ple. Those young people who did join tended And I remember as well the excitement to be sons or daughters of Sinn Féin mem- when Bill Clinton came. The whole fam- bers. In fact if you did join, you were likely ily went into town to see him. The place to be a target for mercilessness slaggin by was packed, brimming with people. It seems your peers. strange looking back. But it was the hope that something different was on the way, I suppose the first political thing I did something better. I was ten when the was a walk out of school against the war Belfast Agreement was signed. I remem- in Iraq in 2003. We walked out of school- ber the document lying about the house, it much to the dismay of Senior Management was sent to every home. I doubt if I even - who later gave a day’s detention to every- looked through it, but you certainly heard a one who decided to take a principled stand lot about it. My generation was supposed to against the war in Iraq and walk down the be the first generation without violence. The school lane. I distinctly remember watching first generation with a future beyond prisons the TV coverage of the bombs being dropped and repression. I’m not sure I thought of it on Iraq. It filled me full of rage. that way at the time of course. But that was In 2005 I was part of organising a ‘Stu- the context. dents Against Poverty’ bus to the Make

52 Poverty History demonstration in Edin- strict bail conditions. I was barred from burgh. We organised a bus of school stu- entering the city centre under any circum- dents from across West Belfast and the wider stances and barred from attending protests city to the demonstration. I will never for- of any kind. get the powerful experience of being on a Over the next year some of the restric- protest with hundreds of thousands of peo- tions were lifted. I was allowed back into ple and the real sense that if people across the city centre and eventually allowed to at- the world stood together then fundamental tend protests again: under the proviso that change could be achieved. There was a fan- I contacted the local PSNI station to alert tastic feeling of solidarity and collectivism them of my presence. I was again arrested in the camp in Edinburgh with exciting dis- a year and half later when I was leaflet- cussions about how we can shape the world. ing in the town about unemployment rights, This experience had a lasting impact on me whereupon I was approached by two police and really helped begin to shape how I view officers who arrested me. I was on a protest the world today. they said, and had not rung the police sta- In 2008 and 2009 I was elected as the stu- tion. This was not a protest I argued, which dent’s union president for the Jordanstown it wasn’t, but I was brought back before the campus at the University of Ulster. It was a Judge again nonetheless. It was just petty lot of fun. We organised mystery bus tours harassment. and fresher’s events but also demonstrations Some of the charges were dropped, in- against Fees and tried to instil radical pol- cluding the ridiculous notion that I had itics into the student movement. It was resisted arrest. At the trial my solicitor where I really cut my teeth politically and held up the front page of the Belfast Tele- whilst it was certainly a new experience - graph. There was a photo of me being we constantly attempted to present a politi- dragged by the police from the protest by cal student’s union that was against war, for my legs, with about four other people hold- free education and opposed to racism. ing my arms and coat. I was hardly in IMR: You were banned from Belfast a position to ‘resist’ arrest. That charge City Centre for a time for being in- was dropped instantly after that photo was volved in a protest weren’t you? shown. I was convicted, however, of engag- Gerry Carroll: Yes, and it was a long le- ing in a ‘provocative act’, partly because I gal battle. I wouldn’t recommend it to any- had chanted ‘they say cut back we say fight one, nothing glamorous about it at all. The back’ on a megaphone. Ludicrous stuff. whole thing went on for about two years. IMR: When did you first stand for But we were right to have protested, and election? we were right to have taken a stand. I Gerry Carroll: I first stood in 2011 - when was arrested at a student protest at Belfast I was still banned from the city centre - in City Hall against fees on December 9th 2010. the Assembly election for West Belfast. We Hundreds of students and supporters had had been involved in local campaigns from gathered there to protest against the hike 2006; from the fight against water charges, a in tuition fees. It was a brilliant day: with campaign to protect public land at the for- hundreds of young people, from both sides mer Andersonstown Barracks site from be- of the divide, joining together to say no to a ing sold off to a private developer and cam- future of debt. paigns against parking charges. We were A botched attempt by the police to clear very energetic about the area, and our cam- the area at the end of the protest resulted in paign mainly involved young people. hundreds of people standing on the road. A People Before Profit were known around sit down protest began. The PSNI singled the community for being involved in grass- myself out for arrest (because I had a mega- roots activism for a few years. We did very phone and was therefore a ’ringleader’), and well in the election, getting 1661 votes. Not dragged me from the protest. I was held long after that Gerry Adams resigned his overnight, and released the next day under Westminster seat to move to the South. We

53 stood again, and were the only party to in- ineffectual. But people aren’t stupid and crease our vote in that election. could see past what they were doing. Our These results were much better than any- support was growing. thing left wing parties had scored in the IMR: Your election campaign for MLA North in decades. Naturally, some people this year was obviously a triumph - refused to accept its significance, arguing it what were the key factors in its suc- was a fluke or that we borrowed votes from cess? others. But we never bothered with them, Gerry Carroll: Our result was indeed a and kept doing what we were doing. fantastic triumph and it was down to a num- IMR: Tell us about getting elected as ber of factors. Firstly, we had a good team a councillor and how you operated as ethic and a lot of people who did a lot of hard a socialist in that role. work-writing the leaflets, putting up posters Gerry Carroll: We knew we had a real and knocking the doors. This was our fifth chance of taking a seat on the City Coun- election in five years so we had accumulated cil in 2014 based on our previous election a lot of experience running in elections. results and our consistent campaigning on Some quarters tried to present our vote the ground. And while much of the media as simply a ‘protest vote’. But this com- never gave our campaign the time of day, pletely missed out on the fact that we had this spurred us on we came 100 votes away a coherent argument about what could be from topping the poll in the Black Mountain done to fight against austerity. Sinn Féin Ward in West Belfast. This puzzled a lot of and the DUP argued that austerity was the establishment who thought that politics the only option, like some force of nature could only be demarcated in the North along that couldn’t be stopped. On the other Nationalist and Unionist lines. And for the hand, we argued that the Assembly where first time in decades there was a socialist complicit in austerity and doing the dirty voice in the chamber of Belfast City Coun- work of the Tories. The Assembly crafted cil. Our election came not long after the the Stormont House Agreement which lu- period of the ‘Flag Protests’. There was a dicrously argued for corporation tax to be lot of pessimism around that period but also slashed to 12.5% and £700 million to be a deep sense of frustration about the reces- borrowed to abolish 20,000 public sector sion and attacks on public services. And not workers-Thatcherite politics pure and sim- long after the protests we saw trade union ple. We argued for Stormont, instead of beg- strikes against public sector cutbacks and ging David Cameron to cut taxes for their the growth in the idea that there needed to corporate friends, to call for corporations to be an alternative to cutbacks. pay their way. We also argued that the £700 I think the election sparked a resurgence million borrowed could be used to create a in street protests and social movements in crash programme of house building which the city. We organised large scale demon- would give people homes and create jobs for strations against the slaughter of Palestini- the unemployed sparks and brickies. ans by the Israeli state, demonstrations I think we also tapped into something against racism, the war in Syria, racism and deeper. There is a growing sense of the need for equal marriage. On the council we pro- for society to take a different direction. This posed a motion which passed, calling for was encapsulated in our slogan of ‘Build- the implementation of the living wage for ing a Socialism for the 21st Century.’ We Health Workers in Belfast, a motion sup- were the local version of the Sanders, or Cor- porting striking workers, a motion creating byn phenomenon. That same mood exists in Belfast city councils first Transgender policy West Belfast as it does across Ireland. The which provided support to staff transition- election of comrades to the Dail earlier this ing and also committed the council to raise year also helped us in terms of showing that awareness of Transgender rights. Of course PBP was campaigning for an alternative vi- the larger parties sought to sideline us, to sion North and South, which could build an make it seem like they ‘deliver’ and we were all-Ireland movement based on people power

54 and capable of real change. land. And some Catholics will be for the IMR: What has been your experience border. It isn’t all determined by religion. so far in Stormont and how are you re- Things are much more pragmatic than that. sponding to the situation politically? And in that discussion we can put our own Gerry Carroll: It has definitely been a unique position, that is neither nationalist strange experience - in the sense that I have nor unionist but socialist. One that calls been involved in activism for over eleven for an Ireland that isn’t divided into two years but never did, and still don’t, see my- horrible states, nor one based on the Sinn self as a traditional politician. It is also Féin vision of corporate tax haven Ireland strange seeing people you are used to shout- where big business are given free handouts, ing at on the TV or screaming at on the and unity is a promoted as a new way to radio walk past you on a daily basis. cut the public sector through all Ireland ef- It can be frustrating at times, especially ficiency. No one is going to be won to that considering how they have stitched up the vision unfortunately. That’s why support speaking time to decrease opportunities for for a United Ireland is so low at the mo- People Before Profit to speak, and to put ment. And that’s why Sinn Féin’s strategy us to the bottom of the list, a shameful strengthens partition. act by the DUP and Sinn Féin, something So there is a difference between having a which the old Official Unionist Party would border poll and winning one. PBP look at be proud of. the national question through the prism of When we do speak, we try and act like James Connolly’s ideas. We live on a small a megaphone inside Stormont for everyone island which is divided into two–this creates outside it. Be they classroom assistants a division between workers in the North and fighting against job insecurity, same sex cou- the South. It also creates a divide between ples fighting to get marriage equality en- workers in the North. We want to see the acted, or the thousands of people who are unity of working class across Ireland, North waiting to be housed. It’s clear that Stor- and South, and an upheaval against both mont has failed ordinary people. Our job states. We believe the only way people can is to give voice to those people left behind, be convinced in large numbers of the case and the failure of the system to deal with for a United Ireland is through a grassroots people’s needs in everything we do on the movement from below, that is actually about Hill- every time we speak or present a mo- transforming their lives, not about flags or tion. For me it’s great to have two MLAs up nationality. We see the potential for this in Stormont especially someone with the ex- unity through kinds of mass movements we perience of campaigning that Eamonn has. have seen in recent years; whether the big And we have a great team around us. But in water charges movements in the South or the the end the important thing is what happens public sector strikes in the North. But we on the streets. As I said in my first speech; need a much bigger mass movement. And ‘what Stormont does, the people can undo.’ when there’s a convergence of struggles on IMR: Could you explain how you and both sides of the border, Ireland can begin People Before Profit are dealing with to be reshaped in the interests of working the issue of Irish unity and the call for class people. We are for a 32 County Social- a border poll. ist Ireland, one everyone can have a stake in, Gerry Carroll: PBP support a border poll whatever your background. on principle. We are for every exercise in IMR: PBP seems to be expanding in democracy. We think people should be al- the North as it is in the South; can you lowed to have a discussion about the bor- report on the situation at present. der in a serious way. We can’t have a Gerry Carroll: We certainly are expand- ‘not in front of the children’ approach to ing since the election results. We now have the National Question. Let people discuss seven branches across Belfast. We have had it, let them debate it. And guess what? requests to join from all parts of the North Some Protestants will be for a united Ire- since the Assembly election results. We have

55 grown in Derry too, where the party is doing We have been called Unionists, National- fantastically well. I think the platform that ists, Dissidents and everything else under we have in Stormont to put across princi- the sun. But it’s a bit like that scene in One pled, anti-capitalist politics that emphasises Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, when Jack the importance of people power, strikes a Nicholson’s character is desperately trying chord with a lot of people who are angry to escape from the asylum, while everyone about the way society is going. No doubt else looks on doing nothing and he and says there will be challenges for PBP in the com- to them; ‘But I tried didn’t I? Goddammit, ing period, and we will be attacked from at least I did that!’ That’s how I feel about all sides by all sorts of parties and forces. what we are doing as well.

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