The World Tomorrow, Episode 8 Cyberpunks #1
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Air date 5 Jun 2012 Episode 8 – Cyberpunks #1 Jacob Applebaum is a staff research scientist at the University of Washington, and a developer and advocate for the Tor Project, which is an online anonymity system for everyday people to fight against surveillance and against internet censorship. Jacob believes that everybody has the right to read, without restriction, and the right to speak freely, with no exception. In 2010, when Julian Assange couldn’t deliver a talk in New York, Jacob gave the talk instead. Since then, he has been harrassed by the U.S. government: interrogated at airports, subjected to invasive pat-downs while being threatened with prison rape by law enforcement officials, had his equipment confiscated and his online services subject to secret subpoena. Jacob is uncowed by these measures, and remains an outspoken advocate of freedom of expression, and a vocal supporter of WikiLeaks. Andy Mueller-Maguhn is a long time member of the Chaos Computer Club in Germany, and a former spokesman. He is a specialist on surveillance, working in a journalistic capacity on the surveillance industry with his project wiki, buggedplanet.info. Andy works in cryptographic communications, and runs a company called Cryptophone, which markets secure voice communication devices to commercial clients. From worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/episode-8.html 1 30 October 2013 Jeremie Zimmermann is the co-founder and spokesperson for the citizen advocacy group La Quadrature du Net, the most prominent European organization defending anonymity rights online and promoting awareness of regulatory attacks on online freedoms. Jeremie works to build tools for the public to use to take part in public debate and to try to change things. He is mostly involved with the copyright wars, the debate around net neutrality and other regulatory issues that are crucial for the future of a free internet. Shortly after sitting for his interview on The World Tomorrow he was stopped by two FBI officers while leaving the United States, and was interrogated about Assange and WikiLeaks. Links to Networks Hosting the Show RT – English – live [assange.rt.com/] RT – Arabic – live [assange.rt.com/ar] RT – Russian [assange.rt.com/ru] RT – Spanish – live [assange.rt.com/es] L’Espresso – Italian [speciali.espresso.repubblica.it/interattivi/assange-il-mondo-di- domani/assange-chi-vincera-la-guerra-della-rete.html] Full Original Transcript JA Interview with Cypher Punks - April 2012 - [off-camera chat/set up] JULIAN: And how was your trip, Jake? JAKE: Uneventful. [inaudible] as long as they’re uneventful… JULIAN: And since I saw you last time, the Spy Files release? Have you had any problem…? JAKE: No, everything’s been fine. JULIAN: Yes, I think they have enough bugs now, so they don’t [laughter] JEREMIE: The other theory is that once they go home in a suit, even when it is you on the side, they start ‘Oh shit, he’s now with the serious boys. We can’t mess it up with him, like that we did before.’ From worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/episode-8.html 2 30 October 2013 JULIAN: Maybe. JAKE: Yeah. I mean, they just change tactics. [crew sets up] JEREMIE: This guy should study the spy catalogue. There was decent high-quality cameras to be built in everything – so, small ones to hide in glasses, in coffee cups, in lamps, in parts of the ceiling or whatever… JULIAN: My favourite from that is this back-mountable microphone array, and you go into a party and you just face your back to the broad… JEREMIE: With 16 microphones, or was it 18 or something? JULIAN: Yeah, 32 microphones like this, and then you can pick out individual conversations with the mics… JAKE: Wow… JEREMIE: And after… a key 3D printer kind of machine. ANDY: Yeah, that was very nice because it also shows that [?] is a machine that can make you a key from video footage from a key, so it actually shows that [?] is opposing security because if you have a CCTV situation and you can make a copy of the key just by seeing it, just by having a photo of it, you know. JULIAN: Are you selling those? ANDY: No. But [inaudible] had that in their catalogue. JULIAN: Ready? We have a light situation. It’ll be quite interesting actually because it’s gradually going to get dark, and then we’ll be in the dark a bit. JEREMIE: Well, can be whisky time. From worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/episode-8.html 3 30 October 2013 JULIAN: Yeah, and that will be cigars and whisky time… and we have the smoke coming out up through the conspiracy…. JEREMIE: Ah, good. [17:22:44.23] JULIAN: Ok, so first of all I want to think about how we are going to present it, so the big problem I’ve had is being someone who is steeped in state surveillance and understanding how this transnational security industry has developed over the past twenty years, that I’m too familiar with it, and so I don’t understand how to see this from an outside perspective, from a common man’s perspective. But this area that used to be something that concerned me – and looking at how spy agencies deal with each other – now that everyone has gone onto the internet, this is everyone’s issue, because their whole personal lives are thrown onto the internet. So, perhaps we can speak about, before we start formally, what do you think is a good way of conveying the issue? [17:23:42.03] ANDY: I would… I would have an suggestion – to not look at it from a citizen’s point of view but from a point of view of people in power. The other day when I was at this strange conference in Washington and I met these guys with the badge German embassy, and I approached them and I said ‘Oh, you’re from Germany’, and they said “Ah, not exactly from the embassy, we are new from Munich, blah blah blah’, so it turned out they were from the foreign intelligence and I asked them at the evening buffet, like ‘So what’s the focus to secrecy about?’, and they told me ‘Well, it’s about slowing down processes in order to better control them’, so that’s the core of kind of intelligence work, why the secrecy, which is opposing obviously to our ideas of more transparency and so on, and so if you look at what… [17:24:28.13] JULIAN: [inaudible] , you know, on internal processes? [17:24:32.09] ANDY: Well, to… to slow down a process by taking the ability of people to understand it, so to do declare things secret means you limit the amount of people who have the needs and are able to affect the process. Um, you know, anyway. So, if you look at the internet from a perspective of people in power, then the last 20 years have been frightening to this… all this… they see the internet like an illness, ok, an illness that affects their ability to define reality, to define what’s going on, then used to define what the people know what is going on and their ability to interact with it. So if you look at, let’s say Saudi Arabia, a country like that, where by some historical accident religious leaders and people owning majority of the country are the same, so their interest of change is like in the zeros. Like zero to minus five, maybe. And when they look at this, they look at it like an illness and they ask their consultants ‘Do you have some medicine against this thing out there, you know, we need to be immune if this affects our country, you know, if this internet thingy comes’, and so the answer is surveillance, is mass surveillance, is ‘Hey, we need to control it totally, we need to filter, we need to know everything what they do’ so From worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/episode-8.html 4 30 October 2013 they get… and that is what has happened in the last 20 years. There was massive investment in surveillance because people in power feared that it would affect their way of governance, so as a base theory… JULIAN: Yeah, yep. [17:26:19.03] JEREMIE: It’s difficult to disassociate surveillance from control. I think we need to address both. And actually that’s more my part, the control of the internet whether it’s from government or corporations, so I don’t know how you consider articulating all that together. [17:26:35.09] JAKE: Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear that censorship is a by-product of surveillance generally speaking, whether it’s self-censorship or actually technical censorship, and I think that important way to convey this to regular people is to do it non-technically. You know, if we, for example, built roads the way that we built, you know, the internet, in modern days with regard to telecommunications every road would have to have surveillance cameras and microphones as basically that no one except the police could access or someone who has pretended to be the police successfully. [17:27:11.21] JULIAN: I’m getting there, Jake, in this country… [17:27:12.03] JAKE: Yeah, and so I mean… that though I think is interesting because when you build a road it is not a requirement that every inch can be monitored with perfect surveillance that is only available to a secret group of people, and I think explaining to everyday people that that is the way that we are building roads on the internet and then requiring people to use those roads – that is something that I think regular people can connect with when they realise that they won’t always have… the builders of the road will not always be the ones in control.