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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, 21st February 2001 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1961 - The President of Tynwald (Hon N Q Cringle). Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) Regulations 2001 In the Council: The Lord Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy [SD No 47/01] Jones), the Attorney-General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels, Work Boats and Hon Mrs C M Christian, Messrs E A Crowe, Construction Barges) Regulations 2001 D F K Delaney, J R Kniveton, E G Lowey, Dr E J Mann, [SD No 48/01] Messrs J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, Harbour Dues (Pleasure Vessels and House Boats) Clerk of the Council. Regulations 2001 [SD No 49/01]

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon J D Q Cannan) Corporate Service Providers Act 2000 - (Michael); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); Corporate Service Providers (Fees) Regulations Mr R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mrs H Hannan (Peel); 2001 [SD No 54/01] Hon W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Hon S C Rodan (Garff); Inland Fisheries Act 1976 - Hon D North (Middle); Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkill and Mr G T Cannell (Onchan); Messrs J R Houghton and Inland Fisheries (Duties) Regulations 2001 [SD No 23/01] R W Henderson (Douglas North); Mr A C Duggan (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell Customs and Excise Act 1993 - (Douglas East); Mr J P Shimmin and Hon A F Downie Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Order 2001 (Douglas West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); [SD No 22/01] Hon D J Gelling (Malew and Santon); Mrs P M Crowe Statistics of Trade (Customs and Excise) and Mr J Rimington (Rushen); with Prof T StJ N Bates, (Amendment) Regulations 2000 (Application) Clerk of Tynwald. Order 2001 [SD No 20/01]

Animal Health Act 1996 - Animal and Animal Products (Import and Export) The Lord Bishop took the prayers. Order 2001 [SD No 43/01]

Apologies for Absence Water Pollution Act 1993 - Water Pollution (Code of GoodAgricultural Practice The President: Hon. members, we still have apologies for the Protection of Water) Order 2001 from the hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles Walker, away [SD No 52/01] on government business and it was remiss of me yesterday to miss out the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr Dairy Cow Financial Assistance Scheme - Cretney, similarly away on business. It is nice to see Mrs Dairy Cow Financial Assistance Scheme 2001 Cannell back with us and it is hoped that Mr Duggan will [GC No 8/01] join us later this morning. Social Security Act 2000 - Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Social Security Legislation (Application) Order 2001 [SD No 40/01] Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 2001 [SD No 41/01] Papers Laid Before the Court Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 - The President: Hon. members, having completed order Income Support (General) (Isle of Man) paper number 2 yesterday evening we now turn our (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 42/01] attention to order paper number 1 and I call on the Clerk to lay papers. Licensing Act 1995 - Drinking in Public Places (Designated Place) The Clerk: I lay before the Court: (Onchan) Order 2001 [SD No 28/01]

Apologies for Absence Papers Laid Before the Court T514 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

Local Government Act 1985 - of a Long Wave Transmitter Station and Associated Laxey Village Commissioners (Alteration of Vehicular Access at Ballafayle, Cranstal, Bride. Number of Members) Scheme Order 2001 Interception of Communications Act 1988: Report [SD No 50/01] of the Commissioner for the year ended 31st December 2000. Weights and Measures Act 1989 - Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading: Report on the Weights and Measures (Working Standards and Investigation of Gas Prices in the Isle of Man. Testing Equipment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 36/01] Report into Gas Prices — Alcohol Liquor Duties Act 1986 - Beer and Cider and Perry (Amendment) Regulations Question by Mr Delaney 2001 [SD No 21/01] The President: We turn then, hon. members, to the Partnership Act 1909 - question paper and I call on the hon. member for Council, Limited Partnership (Ship Ownership, Chartering Mr Delaney, to ask question 1. and Operation) Regulations 2001 [SD No 8/01] Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Census Act 1929 - ask the Chief Minister: Census Regulations 2001 [SD No 7/01] Census (Prescribed Forms) Regulations 2001 Will the complete report into gas prices in the Isle [SD No 6/01] of Man be made available to Members of Tynwald?

European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 - The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply. European Communities (Control of Exports of Dual-Use Items and Technology) (Application) Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the complete report into (Amendment) Order 2001 [draft] the gas prices has been laid before Tynwald at this very sitting, sir. Plant Health Act 1983 - Plant Health (Elm Bark Beetle) Order 2001 The President: Mr Delaney. [SD No 39/01] Mr Delaney: I thank the Chief Minister and may I ask Superannuation Act 1984 - him, are you satisfied that all the information given to the Superannuation (Clerk of Tynwald's Department) department concerned in this report and the members is Determination 2001 [SD No 67/01] contained in this report, sir?

United Nations - The President: The Chief Minister. Iraq (United Nations Sanctions) (Isle of Man) Order 2000 [SI 2000 No. 3245] Mr Gelling: Yes, indeed, Mr President, the full and final report is the one which is laid before this Court. Appointed Day Orders - Human Rights Act 2001 (Appointed Day) (No.1) The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Order 2001 [SD No 65/01] Crowe.

European Communities - Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Chief European Communities instruments circulated Minister agree that the investigation carried out by the during December 2000 [GC No 4/01] and January commission which included not only myself, but the hon. 2001 [GC No 10/01] member for Council, Mr George Waft, the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr John Houghton, was not only the Reports - first investigation of its kind carried out, but that it was an Code of Practice on Access to Government excellent report, comprehensive in all regard and diligently Information: Report by the Chief Secretary on Initial compiled, an exhaustive thorough investigation ongoing Refusals and Review Decisions in respect of Written throughout the whole of the summer recess when some Requests for Information made under the Code members of this hon. Court might have been in their villas during the year ended 31st August 2000. in Spain? Thank you, Mr President. (Laughter) Gaelic Broadcasting Committee: Report to the Council of Ministers for the year ended 31st March The President: The Chief Minister. 2000. Town and Country Planning Acts 1934-1999: Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. Report of an Inquiry into a Planning Application for Full Planning Permission for the Construction The President: The Chief Minister to reply.

Report into Gas Prices — Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T515

Mr Gelling: The hon. member is the chairman of the forgotten my concerns going back two years. Can he department who carried out the report so I can only assume confirm, though, that the people of this Island are paying that that is a correct statement, sir. extremely high gas prices: some people cannot afford to use their heating all day to keep themselves warm and Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. would he not consider ensuring that if there is any way at all possible in speeding up this process that that could be The President: Mr Delaney. implemented.

Mr Delaney: May I take it from the question asked The President: The price of gas is not relevant to the from the Chairman of Consumer Affairs that you will be question. The Chief Minister. invited to a candlelit supper? Mr Gelling: Yes, indeed, Mr President, obviously the cost of fuel is expensive and the reasons for that being expensive will be in some way in the report which is laid Natural Gas — Importation — Priority — before the Court today. However, that situation hopefully Question by Mr Henderson could be remedied with the availability of natural gas on the Isle of Man, but one particular area that has been The President: Question number 2, I call on the hon. explored brought us the natural gas on to the Island which member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. would have not been any more available on a cheaper rate than what it is now, so therefore this is what has got to be Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave considered - is the bringing it on to the Island going to to ask the Chief Minister: improve the prices rather than just be the same, sir

(1) What priority does your government give to bringing The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mr natural gas to the Island; and Rimington.

(2) will you consider appointing a committee of the Mr Rimington: Bearing in mind his comments on the Council of Ministers to facilitate this objective? economics of these issues and the desirability of making sure that fits into our overall remit, does the Chief Minister The President: Again the Chief Minister to reply. consider that economically it would be better to have just one pipeline bringing gas into the Island rather than two? Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, I did answer a question on this subject from the hon. member in March of last The President: The Chief Minister. year when I explained that the Department of Trade and Industry was handling this particular matter. Since then Mr Gelling: Yes, the economics is extremely important, we have debated a report from the department on the Mr President, and of course the situation is that a gas which various options for bringing natural gas to the Island and could be brought to the Island to power a power station is supported a resolution noting that the Manx Electricity not the gas that we would need for domestic use. So this is Authority was in negotiation with potential suppliers of something that again has to be considered - that you either natural gas and endorsing the authority's proposal to bring bring the gas ashore that is not as pure as it should be, natural gas to the Island to fuel a gas fired power station which could be made pure here, or you bring a purer type and facilitate a supply for domestic gas consumers. of gas onto the Island which could be used for both Tynwald also approved expenditure to enable the purposes. But if I could use the situation to explain that, department to engage environmental, technical and just because the hon. minister for Trade answers the specialist advice in relation to the planning of a means of questions on gas and the hon. member, Mr Henderson, asks the questions, as I heard on the radio the other day, access and a possible spur to facilitate the transportation they are the only two that are concerned about gas coming of natural gas to the Island from the proposed second to the Isle of Man. I would like to dispel that, Scotland/Ireland gas pipeline and I am advised that Mr President, - consultants have now been engaged to carry out this work. I believe that this indicates this government's very real Members: Yes, totally. commitment to bringing natural gas to the Island provided that this can be done at a cost which is indeed economic. I Mr Gelling: - because we all are supportive of gas do not consider that there will be anything to gain by coming to the Island if it is going to reduce the fuel costs. forming a Council of Ministers Committee to take this project forward, sir. The President: The hon. member for Middle, Mr North.

The President: Mr Henderson. Mr North: Yes, Mr President, would the Chief Minister agree with me that a provisional timetable of bringing Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful natural gas to the Island in the second half of next year is to the Chief Minister for his assurances that this natural a very tight timescale and could not, in my opinion, be gas issue will progress and also I am pleased he has not speeded up in any way.

Natural Gas — Importation — Priority — Question by Mr Henderson T516 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

The President: The Chief Minister. will again be put in the position of picking his own team and that that would be contrary to the wishes of Tynwald Mr Gelling: Yes, it is a very tight timescale, but we Court? Would he agree with me that if that does transpire, still expect the Department of Trade to come up with the as a consequence of the neglect that would be inherent in goods, sir. that, it would be almost inevitable that the privileged position of those existing office holders, at least the great The President: I return to the original questioner for a majority of them, will have been secured for the next final supplementary Mr Henderson. administration?

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Mrs Crowe: Quite right too. Chief Minister confirm for us, notwithstanding the tight timescale commitment we have just heard, that natural gas The President: The Chief Minister to reply. piped to the Island would not be subject to similar spot markets that the present gas supply is and therefore it would Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, as I said in the original be unusual if there was any huge price differentials? answer to the question, I am very conscious of the Tynwald situation and the Tynwald report, but there were many The President: The Chief Minister to reply. issues in that report, many issues that were left unanswered which have had to be addressed and the sub-committee Mr Gelling: This is something again we are getting which is Mr Rodan, Mr Downie and Mr Bell, I can assure into rather technical detail, Mr President, and the hon. this hon. Court, are working extremely hard to come questioner perhaps has more information than I. I cannot forward with that final report with the timing which the honestly give the answer to the hon. questioner on that hon. member has brought to our attention. We are well particular point at this time, sir. aware of that, sir.

Approval of Appointment of Ministers — Manx Telecom — Publication of Accounts — Question by Mr Quine Question by Mr Delaney

The President: Question number 3, and I call on the The President: We turn then to item 4 and I call on the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Delaney: I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: (1) Has Manx Telecom indicated that it is prepared to publish its accounts; and Will your government introduce legislation to provide for Tynwald to approve the appointment of (2) if so, will you arrange for them to be circulated to members to ministerial office and, if so, when? members?

The President: Again, for the Chief Minister to reply. The President: The Chief Minister to reply.

Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the Council of Ministers Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, under Manx Telecom's is expecting to receive very shortly the final report of the existing licence, awarded in 1986, the company is required Committee of the Council which is taking forward the to submit its annual accounts to the Communications recommendations of the Tynwald Select Committee on Commission. However the licence does not require these Ministerial Government. The work of the committee accounts to be published more widely. The includes looking at the issue of Tynwald approval of Communications Commission review these accounts to ministerial nominations. The Council of Ministers will ensure that Manx Telecom are operating within the terms decide on the issue of legislation once that final report has of the licence and also to calculate the annual licence fee. been received. Whilst I would not wish to pre-empt the I understand that during the discussion with ICC, the Council of Ministers deliberations and I am certainly not consultants appointed by the Communications in a position to give any commitment on dates, I am very Commission to .recommend the structure of a future conscious of the Tynwald endorsement of the principle of telecom licensing regime for the Isle of Man, Manx prior approval of ministers, sir. Telecom have indicated that, if recommended, they would indeed be happy to support any requirement for licensed The President: The hon. member, Mr Quine. operators to publish their annual accounts. Therefore, moving on to the second part of the question, if as a Mr Quine: Yes, does the Chief Minister appreciate that consequence of the present review it becomes a condition if his Council of Ministers team does not achieve the that any licensed operator shall publish its accounts, production of this legislation and its determination before members will be entitled to have access to those accounts, the conclusion of this Tynwald, the next Chief Minister sir.

Approval of Appointment of Ministers — Question by Mr Quine Manx Telecom — Publication of Accounts — Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T517

The President: Mr Delaney. at Richmond Hill for the construction of an incinerator with a chimney of significant Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President, a proportions; and supplementary. Bearing in mind that the role between people who hold these concessions from government in (2) are you aware that this consideration together with relation to the people who consume the products that they a failure by the department to budget for other costs produce, such as telephone communications and gas if I associated with the development is likely to increase may add that, it will not be to the satisfaction of the public the development and construction costs of the unless they know excessive profits are not being made and incinerator by some £10 million? the only way to do that, I would suggest, Chief Minister, would you not agree, is to produce their profit margins to The President: The Chief Minister still to reply. the people who consume those products, such as i.e. the public, as other telecommunication companies do? Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, to the best of my knowledge the Department of Local Government and the Mr Gelling: Not wishing to pre-empt the consultants Environment has been totally transparent about the that are looking at this, but having already stated that our suitability of the Richmond Hill site for the integrated existing licence holder has said that they would have no incinerator facility. The arguments were propounded by objection to that happening, if indeed that was a condition the department and opponents of the scheme before an of the new licence, it would satisfy the hon. member's independent inspector at a public inquiry held between 6th question. and 14th May 1998. I do not think anything could be more transparent. Those with concerns had every opportunity Mr Delaney: Thank you, very much. Thank you. to raise them at that time. Therefore, moving on to the second part of the question, the department has not failed The President: The hon. member for Middle, Mr North. to budget for all the costs involved and plans to complete No, the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. the project within the financial allocation shown in the government's Pink book of estimates. The most likely Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister not cause of any increased costs, I would suggest, would be agree that it might be a bit too cosy, this present the exceptional delays caused perhaps during the planning arrangement, as far as this with the Communications processes which are to take place in the coming months, Commission and has the Chief Minister ever considered sir. requesting them to look at maybe doing an independent audit outside the Telecommunications Commission on the The President: The hon. member for Onchan. figures, allowing for the fact of internal transactions can wipe away vast amounts of profit. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Chief Minister give an assurance to this Court that there is no question about The President: Yes, Chief Minister. the stability of the land taking such a plant at the present time? Could he also give an assurance to this Court that Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, that is why, with the the next administration will make sure that there is a backing of the Council of Ministers, the Communications detailed breakdown of all the extra costs that will be Commission have actually brought in these consultants, involved that are not being allowed for at the present time? but again the hon. member questions the cosiness of the arrangement. Well, the situation is at present that the The President: The Chief Minister. Communications Commission study the accounts and we rely upon them to address the very problems that the hon. Mr Gelling: Well taking the second part first, Mr member is stating, sir. President, as I have said, I have been given to understand that it is all within the resources which are provided for in the Pink book. I was concerned at seeing in the hon. Incinerator — Land at Richmond Hill — member's question about the stability of the chimney or the stack and I thought that the very reason why we had Concerns as to Suitability — Associated Costs moved on to virgin land, into the area of the field next — Question by Mr Karran door was to get that stability. So I do not know of any of the extras or perhaps the stability that the hon. member is The President: Question 5, I call on the hon. member stating, other than I am quite sure that that will have been for Onchan, Mr Karran. taken into account, sir.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Chief Minister. The President: The hon. member for Council, Mr Lowey. (1) Will your government investigate why the Department of Local Government and the Mr Lowey: Could the Chief Minister confirm that the Environment has been less than transparent over government do not yet own the land and would the Chief the concerns expressed on the suitability of the land Minister confirm that the department has had the ability to

Incinerator — Land at Richmond Hill — Concerns as to Suitability — Associated Costs — Question by Mr Karran T518 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

go on to the land to survey the actual stability or the The Attorney-General: Yes, thank you, Mr President. condition of the land? In answer to the question raised by the hon. member for Ramsey, I can advise as follows in relation to 'Operation The President: Chief Minister. Safe': (a) 38 persons were arrested for alleged offences relating to class A controlled drugs; (b) of those persons Mr Gelling: Yes, I understand the answer to all the 32 were charged with supplying class A controlled drugs, questions is yes. They have had the opportunity to do so, two were charged with being concerned in the supply of but they do not own the land as yet. I think that is correct. class A controlled drugs, one was charged with attempting to supply class A controlled drugs and one was charged The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr with offering to supply class A controlled drugs; (c) to Karran. date one defendant has been convicted on a plea of guilty to the offence of offering to supply class A controlled drugs; Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister give (d) none of the persons charged has been acquitted; (e) an assurance to this Court that there will be no situation of there are no outstanding prosecutions still to brought before putting this Court into a corner as far as putting us into a the courts insofar as all the remaining 34 cases have been situation of a bums rush over the incinerator, that some before the Court of General Goal Delivery since last revelation will not come out, allowing for the fact that there summer. is some dispute at the present time with previous consultants as far as the suitability of this land is concerned? The President: The hon. member for Ramsey.

The President: The Chief Minister. Mr Singer: I thank the learned Attorney for his answer. Could I ask him a question on these 34 that have been Mr Gelling: The hon. member is asking me to give brought before the courts. Did he say they have been found assurances on something. Quite honestly, Mr President, I guilty or have they not been found guilty? can only say that the Department of Local Government appear to have done everything that is correct and proper The President: The Attorney-General to reply. and I would have thought that the stability of whatever is being built there will have been well considered as to size, The Attorney-General: Mr President, the answer to shape and everything else and safety. So all I can say to the question is that the 34 cases are before the courts the hon. member, to the best of my knowledge that is the awaiting trial. They have yet to enter their pleas as to guilty case. or not guilty. The President: The hon. member for Ramsey:

`Operation Safe' Anti-Drugs Initiative — Mr Singer: Could I ask the learned Attorney-General Arrests and Prosecutions — could he explain to me why it should take over 12 months Question by Mr Singer to bring these people to court? Normally when people are arrested for drug offences they are in the courts fairly The President: Item 6, and I call on the hon. member quickly and does he not think that this length of time sends for Ramsey, Mr Singer. out the message that such an anti-drugs initiative has not been effective? Can he explain to me when he expects that Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to all these cases will come before the courts and the court ask HM Attorney-General: make a judgment?

As a result of last year's police anti-drugs initiative The President: The Attorney-General to reply. `Operation Safe' - The Attorney-General: Thank you, Mr President. I am (a) how many arrests were made for the possession of entirely satisfied that the investigations and the conduct class A drugs; of the prosecutions to date have been entirely satisfactory. The broad timetable is that the majority of the arrested (b) how many of those arrested were charged; persons were arrested in December of 1999. They came before the courts for committal in March to June of last (c) how many of those charged were convicted; year and from June of last year they made their appearances in General Gaol. A number of applications have been made (d) how many of those charged were acquitted; and by the advocates acting for the defendants, culminating in an application to stay the proceedings for alleged abuse of (e) how many outstanding prosecutions are still to be process. Those applications were considered by His brought before the courts? Honour Acting Deemster King QC who refused the applications for stay and all the defendants have to enter The President: I call on the Attorney-General to reply. their pleas on 18th June this year.

`Operation Safe' Anti-Drugs Initiative — Arrests and Prosecutions — Question by Mr Singer TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T519

Isle of Man Earnings Survey 2001 — Average me that the deficit between those that have and those that Earnings — Question by Mr. Delaney have not is a huge amount?

The President: Item 7, and I call on the hon. member The President: Treasury minister. of Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Corkill: Mr President, it is a fact of life that different Mr Delaney: I beg leave to ask the Minister for the qualifications, different skills, the fact of being in the right Treasury: place at the right time or in fact being in the wrong place at the wrong time will determine people's wages and their With reference to the Isle of Man Earnings Survey salary levels. There have always been differentials and I 2001 - would suggest, sir, there will always be differentials between different groups of workers and to try and equalise (a) what were the average earnings of the 25 per cent all those rates of pay as the hon. member is suggesting, I of full-time employees who earned less than £255 suggest would be a logistical nightmare to actually produce per week; and that - It is for them. (b) what were the average earnings of the 25 per cent Mr Delaney: of full-time employees who earned in excess of £467 per week? Mr Corkill: - and not necessarily what the majority of people in the community of the Isle of Man would want. I The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury understand exactly where the hon. questioner is coming to reply. from in terms of elucidating and highlighting average figures of pay, but the earnings survey is a survey, Mr Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I think that the President. It is factual and I am sure it will be a useful hon. member may have intended to refer to the Isle of Man document in the debate in another place, sir. Earnings Survey 2000 rather than that of 2001 which has not yet been carried out. The average earnings of the 25 per cent of full-time employees who earned less than £255 Census — Particulars to be Required — per week was £204 per week. The average earnings of the Question by Mr Delaney 25 per cent of full-time employees who earned in excess of £467 per week was £683 per week. The President: We turn now to item 8 and I call on the hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Delaney: I thank the minister for his reply and the technical one year error which I was working over a two Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to year period when I asked the question. Could I ask the ask the Minister for the Treasury: minister, bearing in mind the figures just quoted that 25 per cent of the full-time employees in the Isle of Man earn In the 2001 census, in respect of which matters is it £204 or I presume less than that, does he think that in a intended to require particulars under paragraph 6 of the community where it has just produced a budget we did schedule to the Census Act 1929? yesterday that that is adequate recompense for 38 hours or more work? The President: The Treasury minister to reply.

The President: The Treasury minister to reply. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. With the exception of the year 1941 there has been an official census Mr Corkill: Bearing in mind your guidance yesterday in the Isle of Man at least every 10 years since the first in about minimum wage being before another place, Mr 1821. The pace of social and economic change in the Island President, I do not wish to comment on what.. . since 1961 has been sufficient to warrant a census every five years. The paragraph to which the hon. member refers Mr Delaney: That was not the question, minister. is the part of the Census Act which allows information on the social and civil condition of the population to be The President: Item 8, I call on - collected in addition to other matters such as age, sex and place of birth, which are covered by other parts of the Mr Delaney: Mr President, a further supplementary if schedule to the Act. The particulars to be collected in the he is not prepared to answer that. 2001 census are set out in full in the Census Order 2000 which was laid before this hon. Court in December of 2000. The President: Number 7, then, Mr Delaney, These particulars were included following consultations with all departments and boards of government. Inevitably Mr Delaney: Could I ask a further supplementary, Mr it was not possible to include all the matters put forward. President. Of the figure of the higher 25 per cent would Clearly we can only include factual questions. In addition the minister, without infringing standing orders, agree with we do not include questions covering information which

Isle of Man Earnings Survey 2001 — Average Earnings — Question by Mr Delaney Census — Particulars to be Required — Question by Mr Delaney T520 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

is either already available or could be collected by some have opinions: it is their right within themselves as to other more convenient and perhaps cheaper means. So the whether they express that opinion or not and we should questions on the social and civil conditions of the Island's not have a census which is constructed in a way to invade population to be included in this year's census concern that personal privacy. So I hope that explains to the hon. knowledge of Manx Gaelic, place of birth of parents and member that a lot of thought has gone into the actual grandparents, current and previous residence in the Island, construction of the questions. long-term illness, caring for others, qualifications, tenure of the dwelling, access to the intemet, vehicle ownership, The President: Final supplementary, Mr Delaney. overnight parking, the use of fuel and the form of heating in particular dwellings. In comparison with the last full Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Could you census in 1991 some questions have been dropped and indicate again and clarify are all the questions, even those particulars included things about baths, showers, opinions, compulsory to be answered on the question forms outside WCs and telephones. Mr President, as I mentioned laid down on the Census Act? earlier the full list of particulars has already been laid before this hon. Court. At the sitting today the Census Regulations The President: Minister for the Treasury. 2001 and the Census Prescribed Forms Regulations 2001 were also laid. Essentially these set up the administrative Mr Corkill: The census is compulsory, the expression process to carry out the 2001 census, which if I may remind of opinion is not compulsory, that is the point I was making. hon. members will take place on Sunday 29th April this The government is only interested in facts. year. The census has a vital place in the policy making of the Island and matters concerning population are often to The President: Question number 9. Hon. member for the fore. Onchan, Mr Cannell.

The President: Mr Delaney. Mr Cannell: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for the Treasury: Mr Delaney: I thank the minister for highlighting the fact that the regulations are in front of us today. Would the What progress is being made towards including the minister as a member of the Council of Ministers consider Isle of Man in schemes to raise interim equity from personal even at this late stage, bearing in mind the vast changes in residences. society occurring so quickly, to change some of the questions being asked to more suit the present The President: Again I call on the Minister for Treasury, circumstances so it may help this parliament to actually Mr Corkill, to reply. produce a policy to ensure the welfare of the Isle of Man for the future? Mr Corkill: Yes, thank you, Mr President. My hon. colleague, the member for Onchan, asked a similar question The President: The Treasury minister. in another place last June and I replied at that time, and I quote, 'As it is a commercial decision for the providers of Mr Corkill: I do think it is a bit late in the day to make equity release products the Treasury will not be making these changes. If the hon. member has any particular representations to the head offices of banks and building change to make he has not stated where he thinks there is societies with regard to this matter. However, I will take a shortage. May I inform hon. members that a number of the opportunity to raise discussion with the industry at extra questions have been included. One was to do with future consultative meetings which the Treasury hold long-term illness and that was requested by the DHSS quarterly.' As promised I did raise the matter with the because that was information they thought was useful in Association of Licensed Bankers. After discussion with their policy making. Also caring for others, that was a new their members they indicated that it was not of specific section requested by the DHSS and the UK census will be commercial interest to them and in fact very few could asking that question. The Department of Trade and Industry offer the facility. It has been brought to my attention that asked to ensure that a question of access to the internet some private individuals may in fact be offering such a was included because the Economic Affairs Division of service. I would like to advise them that this may be a Treasury is often asked for this particular data and it is not licensable activity and they should contact the Office of available in a satisfactory form. Other issues that the Fair Trading or the Financial Supervision Commission if Department of Local Government for instance asked for they are in doubt regarding the provision of such a facility. was to do with parking overnight and the type of fuel that I hope that shows the hon. member that I have raised the people were using. So I think over the consultative process issue with the industry. a number of useful changes have been made which will enable policy makers in the future to have the information The President: Hon. member Mr Cannell. available which is all the census is really about. I would point out that the census deals with facts and not opinions. Mr Cannell: Yes, thank you, Mr President, a It would be wrong perhaps to ask the population for supplementary if I may. Whilst acknowledging the fact opinions because at the end of the day the census is a that the hon. Treasury Minister has indeed referred this as compulsory undertaking, so we only ask for facts. People he undertook to do, would he not agree with me that this

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would be a very valuable service for people of the Isle of The President: Again I call on the hon. member for Man and that this and other similar inducements which Onchan, Mr Corkill, Minister for the Treasury, to reply. are offered by commercial undertakings need not always be driven by profit but rather by service to the Isle of Man Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I can assure the as a return for the residence for the profits which they make hon. member that any reductions in the duty on fuel in other spheres of their operations. introduced in the United Kingdom will also be introduced into the Isle of Man at the same time and at the same rate. The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Corkill, The amount of the licence duty for all vehicles is a matter to reply. for the Department of Transport to determine but I would remind the hon. member that generally the cost of licences Mr Corkill: I am sure that institutions on the Island for heavy goods vehicles is significantly lower in the Island will take note of the comments raised in this hon. Court than it is in the adjacent islands. and to that extent this question may well be very useful to give that airing. It is the second time that it is being aired The President: Hon. member Mr Houghton. and the Association of Licensed Bankers' members have obviously looked at this from a commercial view but it is Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I true to say that in the United Kingdom there are licensed appreciate the hon. Treasury Minister's answer but bearing banks et cetera who do provide this service. The industry in mind the Department of Transport of course is unable would say, though, that in fact there are down sides to such to reduce the value of heavy goods vehicles, wagons et a service - cetera who have road fund licences anything up to as much as £3,000 per annum less - this is the reason why I am Mrs Crowe: Absolutely. seeking for the Treasury Minister to bring forward an initiative to allow such a similar refund in money to come Mr Corkill: - when in fact from a public relations point from the Treasury rather than from the Department of of view they may well have to call in the debt and people Transport. Simply because the Department of Transport is end up without their house. So there are downsides to such unable because of the level of its road 'fund duty to a service but it is a mortgage type arrangement that the participate in this matter, that is the reason why I am asking hon. member is asking about and if there is a market there the Treasury to give view to making an appropriate I am sure the industry will seek it out. initiative, sir. The President: Hon: member for Onchan, Mr Karran. The President: I think there is a question there somewhere, Treasury minister. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, has the Minister for Treasury not looked into the possibility, in view of the fact that the Mr Corkill: Well, really to reiterate, Mr President, that price of property is so dear at the present time, of trying to develop a scheme of part equity to help first-time buyers, the Department of Transport sets the rates of road licences maybe people who would like to move out of the public and they have a policy which backs that up. Duty on fuel sector housing into the private sector housing but could is another issue and of course under the Customs and Excise not afford to pay for the full part of a house. Could we see arrangement we have that in parity with the United some sort of action by his department since we have not Kingdom so what happens there happens here. In terms of had any action out of the DoLGE out of the housing crisis. any differentials, owners of HGVs on the Island are paying the same road fuel duty as in fact their counterparts in the The President: Hon. member, we are not going to UK do. There is a wider issue that in fact within the develop into a housing debate. European Union other member states have bigger differentials and obviously the UK industry is very concerned that its EU competitors are enjoying lower rates of duty for the time being. The point I would raise is that Duty on Fuel for Heavy Goods Vehicles to those HGV owners on the Island are equivalent in terms Assist Operators — of fuel duty to the UK but that still leaves the fact that Question by Mr Houghton their road licence duty is less than what it would be in the UK so there is a differential there I understand for all I The President: So we will turn to item 11 on the order mean all vehicle licences are less than the UK from my paper and I call on the hon. member for Douglas North, understanding but that is a matter for the DoT to determine Mr Houghton. their priorities.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave The President: Mr Houghton. to ask the Minister for the Treasury: Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I would Are you prepared to reduce the duty on fuel for heavy reiterate that it is the equivalent amount, that the purpose goods vehicles to assist operators in the Isle of Man who of the United Kingdom Government to reduce the road have not enjoyed the same reduction in the cost of the road fund licence in accordance with the excessive costs of road fund licence as their United Kingdom counterparts? fuel for these vehicles was as an allowance for pro-rata

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costs, anything up to about £3,000 per annum for such a that of course is not the whole of the budget for the project. reduction. So may I ask if the Treasury would kindly review We are seeking to make savings in other elements of the this matter because the Department of Transport cannot budget. That has been quite clearly stated in this Court assist in this case? just three months or so ago.

The President: Treasury minister. The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.

Mr Corkill: I am certainly happy to look at the licence Mr Singer: Could I ask the minister on that last figures. A point I would make out, of course, is that owners comment, could she perhaps indicate in which areas she is of HGVs on the Island with Isle of Man licences are able seeking to make savings? to go to the UK and go about their business without a UK licence. I fail to understand where the hon. member is trying The President: Minister to reply. to say that the hauliers or the HGV owners here on the Island are at a disadvantage. They are already at an Mrs Christian: Mr President, as we continue through advantage and that has not been taken away from them. the project there are of course still efforts going on within the construction budget itself to try and reduce any overspend but we do have several other headings. We have New Hospital — Cost Projections — management contractors fees, professional fees, lead consultants, package design fees, non-general design Completion Date — Question by Mrs Cannell commissions, client associated construction costs, contingency cost, client team costs, equipment The President: We turn to item 12 and I call on the procurement and management, commissioning media hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. services and publicity. Within all of those headings we believe it may be possible to make savings to endeavour Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to to bring this project in within the budget approved by ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: Tynwald. (1) What are the current cost projections for the new The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs acute general hospital; Cannell. (2) do you expect the hospital to be built on time; and Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. How does the (3) will the project be within budget? hon. minister then. . . if she is looking for savings as revealed from last year's answer, how can such savings be The President: Mrs Christian, Minister for Health and achieved when the drainage which was put in place for Social Security, to reply. this project was in fact of a domestic size and quite recently new contractors have had to go in and rip out all of the Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member asked drainage and put in industrial size drainage thereby possibly similar questions at the October 2000 sitting of this hon. prolonging the project but certainly, I would expect, Court and I would refer her to the answers I gave then extending the expenditure upon it. Is she aware of that? which remain valid. However, to recap briefly, the She ought to be aware of that, it was given to her in this department does expect the project to be in budget as hon. place over a year ago. How can she expect to make approved by this Court and we do expect the hospital to those savings when people are having to go in to redo work be built on time within a contractual completion date of that has already been done? 16th September, 2002, but would add that efforts are being made to pull back on that date. The President: I find it difficulty to ally drainage to the question on the order paper but nevertheless I will allow The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Mrs Christian to reply if she wishes. Cannell. Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member has alluded to all the drainage being of domestic size. Where Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Bearing in mind the answer that was given in this hon. place in October there have been found to be problems with the drainage that clearly is a responsibility of the person who carried of last year, can the minister advise on the - she did advise out the work wrongly in the first instance. The cost does at that time that there was some £2.5 million over budget not fall upon the client, Mr President. but however that would be absorbed by the department. Can she advise how this has been achieved?

The President: Minister to reply. Hospitals — Procedures to Prevent Spread of Infection — Question by Mrs Cannell Mrs Christian: Mr President, I refer the hon. member to the answer which I gave in October. I did explain at that The President: Item 13, I call on the hon. member for time that it is over budget on the construction element, Douglas East, Mrs Cannell.

New Hospital — Cost Projections — Completion Date — Question by Mrs Cannell Hospital — Procedures to Prevent Spread of Infection — Question by Mrs Cannell TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T523

Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Doctors — Monitoring and Evacuation of ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: Performance — Audit of Medical Specialities — Question by Mr Henderson What procedures are presently in place in the Island's hospitals for preventing the spread of infection The President: We turn then to item 14. Now, hon. among patients, staff and those visiting patients? members, before I ask the hon. member to move it I would point out in fact the next series of questions, 14, 15, 16,17 The President: Again I call on the Minister for Health and 18, can I ask in asking your supplementaries try not to and Social Security to reply. overlap the questions please. Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mrs Christian: Again, Mr President, much of the information that is required in respect of this question has Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave been given in answering questions in previous sittings in to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: relation to MRSA. I can confirm that the Hospitals' Infection Control Committee has responsibility for (1) is the professional performance of doctors practising in the Isle of Man monitored and infection control policies covering all hospitals which evaluated and, if so, how; and includes the monitoring of any infection control problems that arise. The day to day management is undertaken by (2) were any clinical audits of medical specialities in an infection control team which submits a quarterly report the Isle of Man undertaken in the year 2000 and, if to the committee on the number of potentially dangerous so, how many and of what specialities? or multiple-resistent organisms isolated from hospital patients. Written policies, procedures and guidelines for The President: I call on the Minister for Health and the prevention and control of infection have been produced Social Security to reply. by the infection control team and approved by the infection control committee. These policies which are regularly Mrs Christian: Mr President, in response to the first reviewed give detailed guidance to clinical and nursing part of the question I can inform hon. members that doctors staff on the safe care of patients in the hospitals. practising in the Isle of Man are subject to the same Information leaflets are available for patients and their procedures relating to their professional performance as visitors to provide an explanation of the infection control are in place in the United Kingdom. The introduction into precautions in place within the Islands' hospitals. Infection the National Health Service of clinical governance is to control audits are undertaken on a regular basis to evaluate ensure that general managers in all sectors of health care the effectiveness and extent of the implementation of the will be accountable for the quality of care delivered by policies and procedures. their services. Under the principles of clinical governance a system of annual appraisal of consultant medical staff is The President: Hon. member, Douglas East. to be introduced from 1st April this year which will form the basis upon which the General Medical Council will Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. The hon. re- validate consultant practitioners at five yearly intervals. Whilst detailed guidance on the appraisal process is still minister therefore will agree with me that hygiene in the awaited the department intends to implement procedures Island's hospitals is of extreme importance in curbing the which will satisfy the standards adopted by the United spread of infectious conditions. if the minister agrees with Kingdom and on a similar time scale. As regards part (2) me there, how then is it possible that we have an epidemic of the question I can advise that during the year 2000 a of scabies in the Island which was prevalent before total of 38 clinical audit projects were undertaken and Christmas and yet relatives of patients suffering with this completed. The specialties involved included surgery, condition were not informed of the case until weeks after medicine, care of the elderly, accident and emergency, Christmas? Is that considered to be part of the protocols orthopaedics, women's and children's, critical care that are agreed by the infection control team and anaesthetics, radiology, mental health and primary care. committee? Is that satisfactory, minister? The President: Hon. member, Mr Henderson. The President: Minister to reply. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I am very Mrs Christian: Mr President, there are no cases of pleased with the information supplied by the minister but scabies, and have not been any cases of scabies in our could she confirm that currently the professional hospitals. The hon. member may consider it information performance of medical staff, although she said it was to know that there was one confirmed case of scabies in a appertaining to the UK, does not involve such things as residential community home. There is no scabies in our individual performance review and so on and the keeping hospitals. of things like professional portfolios and, further to that,

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the clinical audits which were welcome news, did they can discuss their questions it is not always possible for also include the medical staff in those audits? Were they those who are answering to do so before they address the actually audited themselves in those processes? Court in the usual courteous manner. I do not think, however, that the advice which was given by that officer The President: Instantly we are in danger of spreading on the radio undermines the position in any way. He simply into a further question. Minister, do you wish to reply? confirmed what I have said (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) but he said it in advance. Mrs Christian: Mr President, yes. The hon. member is asking me to confirm that what is going to happen under The President: Hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. the re-validation process does not actually happen under the existing process. The answer to that is no, it does not, Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. Can the minister because that is why the re-validation process I would confirm that in terms of the audit of medical specialists in suggest as a result of concerns generally is being the United Kingdom, the general practice is for peers to introduced. However that does not mean to say that there come in from outside, from another area, to carry out these are not processes in place. There are processes in place to audits? And in relation to the 39 audit projects that the investigate any circumstances where competence or minister referred to, how many of those were carried out practice are of concern. With regard to audit, I have outlined by their peers from off-Island in order to validate their the areas in which audit has taken place. There is a very processes and standards? long list under each of those headings. Some of them, for example, include surgical audit of acute appendicitis as an The President: Minister to reply. example, a surgical procedure which will clearly have involved examining the work of the surgeons concerned. I Mrs Christian: Mr President, in terms of the clinical hope that that satisfies him that the audit process does look audit carried out in the hospital there is a clinical audit at practice and the audit process is generally positive. committee which is an internal committee. However, we all acknowledge that the purpose of audit is to seek to improve and there are areas in which Mr Quine: That is what I thought. improvements certainly have been made following audit and the audit process is circular so it will be reviewed on Mrs Christian: an ongoing basis. That is not to say that they do not have integrity. The hon. member seems to imply that, because The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Lowey. it is internal, it somehow weakens the process. In so far as internal audit is concerned, they do look at best practice in Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. Is the minister other places and endeavour to measure our practice in the aware that her medical officer of health has been on the Isle of Man against those best practice models. With regard radio answering these questions in advance of the minister to the future development of the audit of individuals in answering them in this Court and is that a practice that she relation to re-validation those processes will involve audit condones or would she discourage it. of the individuals by people outwith the Island.

The President: Minister to reply. The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.

Mrs Christian: Mr President, I was aware after the Mr Singer: Thank you. Could I ask the hon. minister event that the Chief Medical Advisory Officer to the what happens if a surgeon is audited and is found not to be department has been on Manx Radio. I think it is very able to undertake what are considered to be modern difficult sometimes, when members of the Court are procedures. If I can pick one out shall I say the Faco eye speaking to the media about their questions, to resist surgery which is totally normal: what happens if that person responding and I do believe that (Laughter) - Is the hon. is found not to be able to undertake that procedure, would member all right? they then not be re-validated? And if if is found out that they can undertake those procedures but we do not have Mr Delaney: It is getting that ridiculous you cannot the equipment to do so what is the department's position even ask questions or answer the public without your - then? And finally are the doctors who are not specialists but express an interest in a particular condition also going The President: Hon. member. to be audited to make sure that they are up to date.

Mrs Christian: Mr President, I do think this is an area The President: Minister to reply. on which some members, I think, have addressed questions to Tynwald Management Committee perhaps for some Mrs Christian: Mr President, the details of the guidance - procedures of the audit under the clinical governance appraisal system have not yet been submitted. We are Mr Delaney: Put a gag on you all. waiting for detailed guidance on the appraisal procedures but I feel quite confident in saying that, where someone is Mrs Christian: . . . the Standing Orders Committee found not to meet the standards required for a particular for some guidance on this because whilst hon. members procedure, certainly in the Isle of Man, we would not expect

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them to be carrying out those procedures unless they have Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave an appropriate level of competence. I doubt very much to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: that that would mean that they would not be re-validated in some particular area. If we are talking about - and again Will your department compile and publish the I am perhaps pre-empting what these guidelines will say information which it already holds on Manx hospitals in and perhaps I should reserve my remarks on this, but I feel the same form and categorisation as the Sunday Times the whole objective of this is to have standards which are Good Hospital Guide Assessment for Health Service set which can give the public confidence in the competence performance, in particular doctor/nurse/patient ratios and of the practitioners concerned in the services which they mortality rates? are providing. I feel quite sure that where consultants have special interests they too will be subject to assessment in The President: Again the Minister for Health and Social relation to those special interests. It is not just a glib phrase: Security to reply. it means something specific in relation to the competencies of those consultants. So I believe that in continuing to Mrs Christian: Mr President, the department is not register special interests they will certainly come under averse to publicising information relating to hospital review and the re-validation process. services. Indeed it already does so in reports such as the Report to Tynwald on Waiting Lists and gives detailed The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs information about hospital activity in the Chief Minister's Cannell. Annual Policy Report and so on. However, in terms of the Sunday Times Good Hospital Guide, the department is not Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Can the hon. persuaded as to the benefits of a league table approach to minister advise on whether or not the department has ever health care. (Mrs Hannan: Hear, hear.) In particular it is sought external clinical audits in the past in respect of doubtful whether comparisons between hospitals is likely professional performance of doctors et cetera? Further to to be helpful given the wide disparity in service provision that can the hon. minister recall her statements in this place between district general hospitals in the United Kingdom in June last year in respect of the role of the Director of and the hospital on the Island. Public Health and can she further recall that, given the name is Director of 'Public' Health, the minister did indeed The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson. concur that he has a right to speak in the public domain when he sees fit and he does not need the minister's Mr Henderson: Thatik you, Mr President. Could the permission. Can the minister recall that comment made in hon. minister confirm that one of the principle points of the good hospital guide is that it does take into account the this place? variances of various hospitals and demographic indicators to give a reasonably accurate picture of statistics? Could The President: I think, minister, you can answer the she confirm also that, although her department does indeed first part of that supplementary question. print waiting list statistics, it would be invaluable to also publish mortality rates and doctor/nurse/patient ratios and Mrs Christian: Mr President, there are circumstances that would go some way to facilitating the public's when we have had audit carried out on individual perception of the health service that she sought in her last practitioners by external reviewers. That does happen. With reply to me in the previous question, Mr President? regard to the comment she has made about the Chief Advisory Medical Officer, yes, I did say that, I am not The President: Minister to reply. arguing with what he has done last week, I am simply stating the fact that he made the comment before I Mrs Christian: Mr President, whilst they may make responded here. those adjustments in the UK for variations, I think that we have to recognise in an Island we have unique situations The President: Hon. member, Douglas East, Mr which do not pertain in hospitals in a larger geographical Braidwood. mass. For example, we are likely to have a different doctor/ patient ratio given our policy to reduce dependence on Mr Braidwood: No thank you, Mr President. The hon. locum practitioners. The mix and size of our specialties is member for Ayre asked a similar question. atypical due to our small community and the wide range of conditions on the Island and secondary to the relevant difficulty of transfer to the more specialist services. We have a very small population and statistically some of these Hospitals — Publicising Information Relating services would not appear for a relative population of this to Services, Ratios Etc — size in the United Kingdom. For example, we have some Question by Mr Henderson single-handed consultant specialties. That probably would not happen in those hospitals in the United Kingdom. I The President: Thank you. We turn then to item 15 feel that mortality rates based on small numbers and and I call on the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr uncorrected for perhaps local case mix factors are likely Henderson. to be unreliable in making comparisons. I think we have

Hospitals — Publicising Information Relating to Services, Ratios Etc — Question by Mr Henderson T526 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

to be very careful when making comparisons that we try The President: Mrs Cannell to repeat the question, to do so on a like for like base and, if you do not, you have please. to be quite clear about where the differences lie and I think this will only serve to confuse rather than clarify the Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I will repeat the question. position in relation to the position of the Isle of Man as Turning away from the issue of a league table type report, compared with other hospitals. Of course bed staff ratios but concentrating on the publication of information for the can be obtained and I think we sit comfortably in the middle public good and confidence, would the minister not agree of those sorts of ranges, but I am not satisfied, Mr President, with me that such a recommendation was actually made that it will particularly help to sit in the middle of a league in 1990-1991 by Liverpool University, who undertook a table. I think these arguments apply in other areas such as health study in the Isle of Man, recommended to the education, where there are mixed views as to their benefits. department at that time, that such statistics should be published in a regular way for public consumption. The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. The President: Minister to reply. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree that the Sunday Times Good Hospital Guide is primarily Mrs Christian: Mr President, the Liverpool report was there to sell papers, not there for any other reason? Would not accepted in its entirety by any means. I have not got it she also not agree that she is being a little naive as far as before me and I have not prepared to answer for that these questions are concerned. They are not interested in particular report, Mr President, so I cannot say whether or the information, all they are interested in is putting a cloud not what was sought in that report is something which over hardworking staff up in the hospitals who have to should be pursued now. With regard to the comments of deal with a number of issues because of the fact that we my hon. colleague, Mr Cannell, that may be a matter of are a small location and they have to do a wide variety of interpretation of all these questions. What I do have to say projects. is, when we have considerable numbers of questions such as these, they do distract. Legitimate though they may be The President: Minister to reply. and democratic though they may be, they do distract staff from the work of providing health care to a very Mrs Christian: Mr President, it is not for me to impute considerable degree, in terms of the time and resources the motives of the Sunday Times or the questioner, but I they take to produce the answers. I do think that much would reiterate and endorse the comments of the hon. information is given about the services at the hospital and, member. There are many people doing very good work in in fact, one of the questions which is down for written our hospitals and we do have processes in place to try and answer clearly indicates that of the many thousands of improve on that where we have weaknesses. I think I tried to outline that this morning. That is ongoing and continuing. operations taking place in the hospital, certainly in relation I believe that, when the revalidation process gets under to locums, as the question is related to it, there are very, way, that will perhaps add to the confidence factor for very few complaints registered and I think we need to get anyone who benefits from NHS treatment. So I think we this balanced. There is a general tendency to decry, to knock need to look to that, Mr President, as a confidence booster. and to criticise. Now that is all right and proper where things are not right, but let us not forget that, on the other The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. side, there is much that is right (Members: Hear, hear.) and we should be careful not to undermine the general Mr Cannell: Yes, Mr President would not the hon. public's confidence in an unbalanced way. minister agree with me that a rallentando of questions of this nature, designed to look like something akin to The President: We will have a final supplementary on Emergency Ward 10, is denigrating the time of this hon. question 15 from the original questioner, Mr Henderson. Court when it has many more major issues to address (A Member: Hear, hear.) and that the hon. minister, while Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Everyone recognising the democratic requirement to answer knows that I support the hardworking staff of the health questions, now would say that in fact the service provided service. That is not the issue. The issue is what I am looking in the health service to the Isle of Man, of which we should at here, Mr President, performance only and the few be proud, is actually being demeaned. instances which unfortunately cast a shadow and we need to have improvement in standards. Would the minister not The President: A rallentando in musical terms means agree that it would be good practice to examine any a slowing down and we are going to speed up. Hon. variances in relation to UK or other good guides and in member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. special reference, maybe, to the national health service UK to their performance indicators to show that there may not Mrs Cannell: Thank you Mr President. Turning away be variances and instil a positive public support, et cetera? from the issue of producing a league table as such in the Would she also agree with me that if the Isle of Man Isle of Man.. . hospitals were going to enter into such league tables, that in fact we would enter the Isle of Man factor, so that we Mrs Christian: I am sorry Mr President, I cannot hear could be balanced up in a proper and appropriate way and the questioner. measured accurately. (Interjections)

Hospitals — Publicising Information Relating to Services, Ratios etc — Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T527

The President: Minister to reply. General Medical Council Website — Qualifications on Registration Appearing of Mrs Christian: Mr President, I note the hon. member's Medical Practioner — remarks. I understand his intention. I do think that in getting involved in league tables, unless you are very careful to Question by Mr Henderson explain to the wider public what these differences are, in order to try and make the relevant comparisons, you are in The President: Question 17, again, I call upon the hon. a quite difficult area. However, I do understand that he member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. wants to generate a feeling of confidence in our hospitals and I would seek his support in so doing. I accept his Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to ask intentions are to be positive. Sometimes that does not the Minister for Health and Social Security: always work. I think sometimes a lot of questions can appear to be a negative approach to the health service. But (1) What categories of current qualifications on the I would suggest, and assure him, that through the steps registration of a medical practitioner appear on the which the department and the hospitals themselves are General Medical Council website; and taking in respect of audit and general review, changing of procedures and so on, and we will come to locums later in (2) does the website also contain spent qualifications a further question, that steps are being taken to ensure that on registration? where improvements can be made, we are making them, and that we will endeavour to deliver the best possible The President: The minister to reply. care to the people on the Island. Mrs Christian: Mr President, the General Medical Council website does not contain personal details of doctors who are registered with the Council, rather it simply Medical Practitioners — Failure to Meet contains a list of primary medical qualifications which are Professional Standards — Procedures — accepted by the GMC for registration purposes. As Question by Mr Henderson indicated, the website is not a database in respect of individual practitioners and, as such, no reference is The President: We turn them to item 16 on the question contained on it with regard to current or spent qualifications paper and I call again on the hon. member for Douglas of registered doctors. _ North, Mr Henderson. The President: Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. In reference to that particular information, could the minister answer Where any medical practitioner employed by your then, if a medical practitioner came to the Island to work, Department, including a practitioner employed as a locum, who was ostensibly qualified by virtue of the certificates consistently falls below accepted professional standards, held on the GMC website but was pending any sort of or has grossly failed to meet such standards - enquiry, would that information be made known to the Department of Health? (1) what internal procedures apply within the Isle of Man; and The President: Minister to reply.

(2) does your Department as a matter of practice Mrs Christian: Mr President, there is a difference immediately notify the General Medical Council? between the website and the Medical Register. The Medical Register from which we obtain our information is The President: Mrs Christian, Minister for Health and maintained by the UK's General Medical Council and Social Security to reply. shows who is properly qualified to practise medicine in the UK. The Register is held on computer and is updated Mrs Christian: Mr President, in response to the first daily. Doctors submitting applications for GMC part of the question I can advise the hon. member that the registration have to complete their registration form and department has in place a detailed disciplinary and submit original evidence of their primary medical capability procedure for medical and dental staff which qualification before being considered for a category of deals with the issues of personal and professional conduct registration and there are a number of categories. We do, and professional competence. Regarding notifications to of course, Mr President, take advice from the GMC when the General Medical Council, the department follows the we are dealing with appointments. criteria established by the GMC, which indicates referrals are a matter of judgement for managers to determine, in The President: Hon. member, Douglas West, Mr the circumstances of the individual case. However, referrals Downie. would certainly be considered in circumstances where a doctor's standard of professional performance, conduct or Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to health, gave rise to serious concern. ask the minister if she can tell the Court, how many cases

Medical Practitioners — Failure to Meet Professional Standards — Procedures — Question by Mr Henderson General Medical Council Website — Qualifications on Registration Appearing of Medical Practitioner — Question by Mr Henderson T528 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

involving negligent or wrongly prescribed surgical, or (e) evaluate such employers by reference to relevant anaesthetic procedures have been referred to the GMC in the national performance league tables? last 12 months, or is this a matter that is perhaps better pursued by the families of those who are involved in any court cases? The President: I call upon the Minister for Health and Social Security to reply. The President: Mrs Christian, you may not have that figure at your fingertips, but nevertheless. Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. In answer to the first part, I can advise the hon. member that all locum Mrs Christian: Mr President, I do not have that statistic medical practitioners taking up appointments on the Island available. It is going to be in low numbers. It is also, of are required to provide evidence of their professional course, possible, irrespective of what happens in the qualifications. The status of all applicants for locum hospital for individuals to write to the GMC. If the hon. appointments, in particular their inclusion in the GMC's member wants to discuss specific cases with me, I will medical register, is confirmed by reference to the GMC's endeavour to try and find the information out for him. national enquiry line. I can confirm the experience and performance of selected candidates is checked by The President: Return. to the original questioner for immediate reference to the individual's curriculum vitae the final supplementary, Mr Henderson. and is assessed initially by the lead consultant in the relevant specialty. This process would include direct Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Could the contact with the referees and/or former employers should minister confirm that, or re-clarify that if her department there be any doubt over a candidate's skills and experience. is concerned about a medical practitioner, the onus is on Turning to the third part of the hon. member's question, as the department to make enquiries to the GMC/Register? I mentioned before, the GMC website does not provide Could she also clarify the position which we have heard access to the registration status of individual practitioners. about in this hon. Court, about a locum who was practising However, as I did say, the registration status of locum here whilst under investigation and what can we do to doctors is established by consultation through the General solve that particular situation in the future? Medical Council's national enquiry arrangements. The recruitment policy for locum staff requests that applications A Member: Hear, hear. are only accepted where references are provided in The President: Hon. members, I do not think it is right advanced from a current or most recent employer. This that we should discuss personal questions. requirement is only waivedin exceptional circumstances, for example when an appointment is necessary at very short A Member: Hear, hear. notice. However, the performance of locums is subject to a National Health Service assessment process, in accordance with the United Kingdom Department of Health guidelines, which are adopted in checking the Locum Medical Practitioner — Appointment performance of locum doctors across the wider health — Checks Carried Out — service. With regard to the final part of the hon. member's Question by Mr Henderson question, the previous employer of a locum practitioner is not evaluated by reference to the relevant national The President: So we will turn on to question 18 and performance league tables. Such tables do not provide again, I call upon the hon. member for Douglas North. information which could be related to the individual performance of a doctor and, that being so, they are not a Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to ask factor in determining the appropriateness of an individual's the Minister for Health and Social Security: clinical competence. In addition to what I have said about professional qualifications I can confirm that under the When considering appointing a locum medical department's recruitment procedures various checks are practitioner to work in the Isle of Man, does your Department- also made on each doctor appointed, including the practitioners's identity, health status and eligibility to work (a) check the validity of the professional qualifications in the Isle of Man. If I could just comment on the question of the practitioner and, if so, how is this done; which you did not allow me to respond to, Mr President, and that question has actually already been aired in this (b) check the experience and performance of the hon. Court, but did say that since that practitioner was practitioner and, if so, how is this done; working in the Isle of Man whilst the case was under consideration by the GMC, the procedures in the UK have (c) check the General Medical Council website to changed so that suspended doctors are now notified, or establish whether the registration of the practitioner investigations are now notified, on the appropriate enquiry is qualified; register. I hope that the hon. member will feel confident of that the very many changes which have been made in (d) check the professional performance of the relation to the employment of locums in the Island and in practitioner with the practitioner's immediate past the wider NHS are being applied here with much greater employers; and scrutiny being applied generally in relation to the

Locum Medical Practitioner — Appointment — Checks Carried Out — Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T529

appointment of locums. Indeed, Mr President, I have to Mrs Christian: Mr President, there is a section in the say it is the department's aim to reduce the employment of department which is responsible for the engagement of locums wherever possible. (A Member: Hear, hear.) By locums. They obviously have to consult with the lead reorganisation of staffing levels and by appointing consultant whom the locum is going to replace. All that additional permanent staff. discussion takes place with regard to whether or not to accept a particular locum. I guess it would depend on the The President: Hon. member, Douglas North, Mr nature of the reference to the GMC and if it was for Henderson. suspension, then clearly suspension applies everywhere. If the question is an inquiry, it may depend I would suggest, Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful on what the nature of the problem was but I would think for the minister's reassurances there, which I was hoping that generally speaking we would seek to have people on we might have and indeed we have, but could she agree whom there is no question mark. That would certainly be with me that there is still a small loophole here, whereby a the wish, I am sure, of the hospital to obtain locums who locum consultant who is under investigation but not have no particular issues surrounding them. necessarily suspended could put his name forward for employment for a period of time in the Isle of Man? And The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. could the minister give an undertaking that when researching the references of such a locum, a letter of Mr Cannell: Yes, Mr President, would not the hon. reference might not be everything and that it would be minister agree with me that there are plenty of other similar worth putting into that query to the employing authority a fields, including education, of which the hon. questioner question, a direct question? Would she agree a direct is a member of the department in the Isle of Man, where question should be placed to ask if the locum in question paramount is the decision made by the governing body as is actually under any sort of scrutiny? to whether the people in that profession are competent to continue practising and that it is a well established principle The President: Minister to reply. of British law that in fact everyone is innocent until proved guilty, notwithstanding that there can be the opportunity Mrs Christian: Mr President, I would like to clarify. offered for a suspensionary period on pay? My understanding is that where a doctor is under investigation that information is held on the enquiry register The President: That is a comment and I find it difficult and is advised to the department. If, by any chance, I am to ally health services to education. (Members: Hear, hear.) misinforming the Court I will come back to you all but Hon. member, Mr Delaney. that is my understanding at the moment. With regard to whether a locum is under scrutiny, I hope that would cover Mr Delaney: Just would you confer with the minister that point but I have to say that where we are seeking on the question from a fellow colleague from the appointments it is not always just the written reference department and agree with me that a doctor who can that is alluded to. There is often communication direct with actually kill people by mistakes, is not the same as a teacher the employing authority. who may give you a bad education. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. The President: I think hon. members we will turn question 19 and again I will call on the hon. member for Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. In respect of Douglas North, Mr Henderson. the GMC national enquiry line and the advice that the minister hopes is given to the department when the department is making an enquiry on a prospective Medical Practitioners — Requirement for employee, given it may be a locum and only for a fixed Continuing Professional Development — number of weeks or months. If this information is held Question by Mr Henderson and is forthcoming from the GMC to the department and the department is advised, who then takes the decision in Mr Henderson: Thank you Mr President, I beg leave the department as to whether or not to engage this particular to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: individual if, as a consequence, he or she does have an outstanding matter which is yet to be considered, which Is continuing professional development required of could be an allegation, an inquiry or whatever? Who takes medical practitioners practising in the Isle of Man in order the decision in the department whether or not to go ahead to maintain their registration on the medical register? and engage that individual? Or is it automatic that the protocol in the department would be not to consider for The President: I call on the Minister for Health and engagement in the Isle of Man if there is a question mark Social security to reply. hanging over the individual's head? Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. The General The PreSident: Minister to reply. Medical Council does not at present require medical

Medical Practitioners — Requirement for Continuing Professional Development — Question by Mr Henderson T530 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

practitioners in the Isle of Man or elsewhere to provide a provision. I would merely ask her, how often is that evidence of continuing professional development in order provision updated and does she feel that it is sufficient to to maintain registration. However, most Royal Colleges encourage all of the Island's general practitioners to update already require their members to submit formal evidence and maintain their skills? of minimum levels of continuing professional development activity each year in order to maintain their inclusion on The President: Minister to reply. the General Medical Council's specialist register. In addition, the development of clinical governance in the Mrs Christian: Mr President, the department is national health service and the proposals by the General required under section 250 of the terms and conditions of Medical Council for revalidation of doctors does mean that service to grant study leave for medical staff and it in future, medical practitioners will be required to provide recommends for senior medical staff an allowance of leave documented evidence of all aspects of their clinical with pay and expenses within a maximum of 30 days in performance, including their participation in continuing any three years for professional purposes. The department professional development. has a budget for this. I do not have the statistics on GPs, I am afraid, but I can tell that, in the current financial year, The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr £56,000 has been spent on study leave for consultants. Now Henderson. if that is a measure of the expenditure in that area, then clearly there is another element of budget for general Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Again I am practitioners. So the uptake of study leave by the medical pleased with that further assurance from the Health staff of the department is, I would suggest, excellent and it Minister and especially with the ensuing clinical is an ongoing process which is supported financially by governance. I got a bit lost in the technical detail there, Mr the department. President, could the minister confirm, or otherwise, that it The President: Mr Braidwood. now will be a requirement in future, with the clinical governance, will that be just for the organisation or the Mr Braidwood: Just one question. registration to be up to date, and have evidence of professional development? The President: A further supplementary, sir?

The President: Minister to reply. Mr Braidwood: Thank-you, Mr President. Could the minister confirm that GPs who go away on courses, that Mrs Christian: Mr President, I did refer both to clinical the department do subsidise their travel? governance and the revalidation process. Clinical governance has a number of dimensions dealing with Dr Mann: They have been doing it for 30 years. processes for recording and deriving lessons from untoward incidents, complaints and claims, risk management The President: Minister to reply. programmes, effective clinical audit, evidence based medical practice and supportive non-blaming culture Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think I just said that. committed to the concept of lifelong learning. So clinical But I would confirm that. First of all I would say that the governance embodies this continuing process of education travelling days are not included in the 30 days allowance. and development. As well as that, the revalidation process I need probably to take further advice on this but it is my will require that medical practitioners will need to produce understanding, which may stand correction, that an element evidence of their participation in continuing professional of the travel costs are paid. I think that sometimes, where development. I think that both of those strands of it is on another continent, they may have to pay an element development within the NHS will mean that there will have themselves. I believe that the department pays expenses to be this continuing process. So I have to indicate that to the United Kingdom, to the departure point to the other under the current structures, we do, in the department, have continent. a budget for training courses and development courses, which is very much called upon. So that process is going on at the current time and has been so for some time. Disability Living Allowance — The President: Hon. member Douglas East, Mrs Persons Suffering from Fibromyalgia — Cannell. Question by Mr Houghton

Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the The President: We turn then to question 20 and I call last comments by the hon. minister in terms of training, upon the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. which is where my supplementary was going to come from. I was going to ask her does the department actively Mr Houghton: Thank you Mr President. I beg leave to encourage all general practitioners to update their skills ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: and expertise by incentives such as finance towards or the provision of training, perhaps on Island, or away at a centre Why do people suffering from fibrotnyalgia not qualify of excellence. The minister has indicated that there is such for disability living allowance?

Disability Living Allowance — Persons Suffering from Fibromyalgia — Question by Mr Houghton TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T531

The President: Minister for Health and Social Security Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to again to reply. ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure:

Mrs Christian: Mr President, disability living (1) Are you satisfied that cliff erosion at Ballure presents allowance is payable to people disabled before the age of no danger to the Manx Electric Railway line; 65 who need help with personal care and/or who have difficulty in walking. To qualify for the benefit, a person (2) if not, has any work been undertaken to remove the must, in normal circumstances, have been so disabled for danger; and at least three months and the disability must be expected to last for six months. It is not payable on the basis of (3) if so, when was the work undertaken and has it been having any particular illness or disability, whether it be completed? fibromyalgia or otherwise. To qualify for the benefit, a person must satisfy either or both of the personal care and The President: I call on the hon. member of Council, mobility requirements. This will depend upon the severity Mr Lowey, to reply on behalf of the Minister for Tourism of the illness or the disability. and Leisure. The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the hon. Houghton. member for his question. I am satisfied that cliff erosion Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I am at Ballure presents no imminent danger to the Manx rather mystified at the hon. minister's answer, although I Electric Railway line. That said, my department carries welcome her answer because I do know of one particular out a visual inspection of the cliff face on a monthly to patient suffering quite seriously from fibromyalgia, that a ensure this remains the case. Part (2): the last work claim has been made and turned down by her department. undertaken in this area was in the 1980s when a new drain This particular person is unable to walk and of course this was installed at the main Ramsey to Laxey road from the debilitating disease will carry on now for the rest of her entrance to Ballacarmel Cottages to Ballure Bridge. I life. May I ask if I can give her the personal details outside understand these works represented phase 1 of a three phase of the Court for her to follow up please? programme which were identified in the 1980s as a result of a survey undertaken into the coastal erosion and cliff The President: Minister? instability at Ballure, the view at that time being that the effect of this phase shciuld be monitored prior to the Mrs Christian: Mr President, any claim for DLA is commencement of further works, i.e. phases 2 and 3. To decided upon by an adjudication officer. That claimant will my knowledge these further works have not been complete forms answering questions about how the undertaken. disability affects him or her and that form will be countersigned by someone who knows the claimant, such The President: Hon. member, Mr Singer. as their family doctor. A disallowed claimant may ask for a review, in which case another adjudication officer will Mr Singer: Can I thank the hon. member of Council review it. At this stage a medical examination will be for his answer. He is correct that phase 1 was completed arranged, if one has not already been made. If the claimant by DHPP and then nothing was done after that. Could he remains aggrieved, he or she may appeal to the independent tell me whether any monitoring was done between then Social Security Appeal Tribunal. I am not aware of whether and now in view of the recent land slip that has taken place the claimant has appealed to such tribunal but I would and can he tell me who is undertaking these regular recommend that that course should be followed through inspections and are they professionally qualified to be able in order to take advantage of the whole of the structure for appeals. to make a judgement as to what is likely to happen in the future? The President: Mr Houghton. The President: Mr Lowey to reply. Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I am acquainted with the appeal procedure, sir. She was flatly Mr Lowey: I know they are undertaken by members turned down due to her illness and her illness only, that of the railway department. Whether they are qualified as the illness did not qualify for DLA as it does in fact in the structural engineers I am doubtful of but I am not absolutely UK. So I thank her for that. certain. I would remind the hon. member that the railways are inspected annually by an independent inspector as to the state of the rail and the track. They are done on an annual basis before the railway receive their certificate. Ballure — Cliff Erosion — Danger to Manx Could I also say there clearly was a view in 1981 that the Electric Railway — Work Undertaken — effect of phase 1 was to be completed - this was by the Question by Mr Singer former Highway and Transport Board - it should be monitored before progressing with the further programme The President: We turn then to item 21, the hon_ of works. In as far as the department has been able to member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. ascertain this has not been done and I can only assume

Ballure — Cliff Erosion — Danger to Manx Electric Railway — Work Undertaken — Question by Mr Singer T532 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

that this is the reason why there has been no further progress The President: Minister for Trade and Industry to reply. to date. However, I can inform the hon. member that a meeting has been called by the landowner, who is in this Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to instance the Department of Agriculture Fisheries and thank the hon. member for this question because the 1999/ Forestry, and other interested parties, which includes no 2000 Annual Report of the Manx Electricity Authority, doubt the Department of Transport, MEA and DoLGE, to which was laid before this hon. Court last October, establish a way forward on this issue. In the short-term it contained the following statement: 'The year ahead will is obviously very advisable to undertake some form of site see the introduction of a dedicated customer service facility survey to identify exactly what is happening, where the serving all areas of the Authority's activities which is to water is coming from and how it is affecting the be located within the major showroom in Douglas. This neighbouring land. That said, funding will have to be facility will also include the first energy advice centre to identified. It is our department's intention to attend such a be established on the Island with the expertise advice of meeting called for by the Agricultural Department and that Manx Energy available to hand at all times'. I can confirm has been called within the last three weeks. to the hon. member that the Authority has the full backing of the department for this initiative. The President: Hon. member, Mr Singer. The President: Mr Rimington. Mr Singer: I thank the hon. member for that answer. Is he aware that I have been informed by his Transport Mr Rimington: I thank the hon. member for his reply. Department that they do feel that some work is in fact Could the hon. minister further emphasise, if possible, that necessary? Does he know which department does hold the energy advice could spread beyond the Douglas statutory powers to repair or protect the area from further showrooms and around the wider community? Would the erosion should it so happen? hon. member confirm that it is essential that we improve the public psyche in these matters and that if we can bring The President: Mr Lowey to reply. energy advice, however small and widespread, it adds to that general wellbeing. Mr Lowey: Yes, there has been over the last two years, I know, some toing and froing I have the correspondence The President: Minister to reply. here. It does seem to me that we lack joined up government. Each department (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) is saying, 'It's Mr North: Yes, Mr President, I can confirm that not my responsibility'. As the hon. member will be aware, certainly once the initiative has shown to be running coastal erosion, by approval of this Court, is going to be satisfactorily in Douglas it will be expanded into the shops the province in the next 12 months, hopefully, after at Ramsey, Peel, Port Erin and, of course, Castletown. legislation, of DoLGE. That is why I hope they will be involved in this. But somebody should take up the cudgels The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Crowe. and our department will certainly be attending that meeting Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the which has been called, as I say, by the Department of hon. minister about the present energy advice officer and Agriculture Fishers and Forestry and I hope the outcome what work he is currently doing and, I think, on advising will be that somebody will institute an imminent survey companies on energy efficiency. Perhaps he could expand of the site to find out exactly what is going on. The hon. on what is being done at present? member will be aware that there was a minor slippage there in January of this year and that was tidied up and cleared Mr North: Yes, Mr President. Manx Energy was up by our officers of the department. formed, I think it was something like three years ago, and the reaction I have to say both from the private sector and from government departments was 'disappointing' I think Manx Electricity Authority — Utilisation of is the word and that particular gentleman who is very Show Rooms to Give Energy Advice — experienced is available to carry out advice on these new centres that will be in the Douglas showroom to start with Question by Mr Rimington and he is also doing other work as well now in the MEA.

The President: Question number 22 and I call on the The President: Hon. member for Douglas West, Mr hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington. Downie.

Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. Could the to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: minister confirm that, prior to the establishment of the present board, the policy of the Isle of Man Electricity Will you give every encouragement to the Manx Authority was purely to sell more electricity and that Electricity Authority retail division to utilise their existing latterly there has been a change of direction within the Isle showrooms for the delivery of energy advice to the general of Man Electricity Authority where they are prepared to public? give advice on energy saving? Could he inform the Court

Manx Electricity Authority — Utilisation of Show Rooms to Give Energy Advice — Question by Mr Rimington TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T533

where we are up to with regard to off-peak and white meters Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Can the and other savings that could .be made to the general hon. Minister for Trade and Industry inform this Court why consumer of electricity and if the MEA are prepared to he has allowed himself firstly to be duped into acting as put some additional promotion into saving energy and, of guarantor by a fly-by-night company who had no intention course, making things cheaper and more affordable for the of taking on these premises and secondly why has this consumer? building been allowed to remain empty for almost 12 months whilst it clocks up a loss to the public purse of The President: Minister to reply. anything up to £200,000 per annum and does he consider this value for money because I do not? Mr North: Yes, several points there, Mr President. Of course there is, I have to say, a new enlightened attitude in The President: Minister to reply. my opinion to the board at the Manx Electricity Authority and also legislation has assisted in giving them a broader Mr North: Mr President, when the decision to provide remit. They are looking at new initiatives all the time. Of the guarantee was made it was accepted that there was a course a lot of these initiatives will depend upon building risk involved as there was a degree of uncertainty that the standards and building regulations that need to be updated project would proceed. What we did know was that the and are being progressed by the Department of Local company could not set up on the Island if this particular Government and the Environment. property was not available to them. The department of which I am the minister has to be in the business of taking risks from time to time and inevitably this sometimes leads Department of Trade and Industry — to situations such as this. Having said that we do have a fine building which would be ideal for one of the high- Hamilton House, Peel Road, Douglas — tech e-commerce related companies which we are seeking Lease — Question by Mr Houghton to attract to the Island. The availability of ready built accommodation of this standard can be an important factor The President: We turn to item 23 and I call on the in location decisions. I take full responsibility for trying hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. to progress an economic opportunity for the Isle of Man. The property is in the hands of a local firm of estate agents Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave who have placed advertisements in the local press and in to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: magazines. Negotiations Were ongoing with a locally based company from February last year until October last year (1) Has Hamilton House, Peel Road, Douglas, been and it was expected that they would occupy the building. leased by, or for the use of, your department; and As it transpired, some eight months of delaying a decision, the Anglo-Irish Bank eventually pulled out of the deal. (2) if so, The President: Hon. member, Mr Delaney. (a) when was the lease signed; Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Bearing in mind (b) what is the period of lease; that the minister has been honest enough to say he takes full responsibility for these losses to the public purse, could (c) what is the rental under the lease; and he tell the Court, please, whose authority besides his own he took to actually enter into this agreement? Was it with (d) for what purpose does your department the knowledge of the Treasury or any other minister or intend to use these premises? department of government?

The President: Again the Minister for Trade and The President: Minister to reply. Industry to reply. Mr North: Mr President, the arrangement was known Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. In October 1999 and approved by Treasury to whom we gave an undertaking the department entered into an agreement with the owners that the property would be offered for lease on the open of Hamilton House under which we stood as lease market should the project not go ahead. guarantor for an e-commerce company which was negotiating to become established on the Island. When that Mr Delaney: Thank you. company did not set up here the department took over responsibility for the lease, arranged for the property to be The President: Mr Houghton. put on the market and made its availability known to government departments seeking extra space. The lease is Mr Houghton: Just one final supplementary, Mr for 21 years with a mutual break option at 10 years. The President. Just how much longer is the department willing total rent is £185,512 per year. to wait clocking up such a huge rent until it is leased out to somebody else before they have made that decision. Thank The President: Mr Houghton. you.

Department of Trade and Industry — Hamilton House, Peel Road, Douglas — Lease — Question by Mr Houghton T534 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

Mr North: Yes, Mr President, as the hon. member will economics of using the gas from the East Irish Sea for be aware, the department of which he, is a member domestic supply and also that there are question marks expressed interest in the property in December 1999 and over the practicality of it in terms of continuity when we are still talking to them concerning the possibility of maintenance shuts down, can the minister then in that the property by a government department as several of regard address whether having that supply from the East them have a pressing need for more space. Irish Sea could possibly preclude domestic usage and, by demolishing the Pulrose Power Station, to take gas from The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Crowe. the East Irish Sea, would that preclude using gas from the west coast if that was decided to be the route for the gas Mr Crowe: Could I ask the minister, would the situation i.e. could we import gas from the west coast through the have been different if an e-commerce export licence had Island to the power station at Peel and it would not lead to been granted? objections on economic or practical grounds.

Mr North: Yes, Mr President. The President: Minister.

Mr North: Yes, Mr President, I have said that there are Demolition of Old Pulrose Power Station — two options and I must confirm that this is still under investigation, but it is true that Douglas Gas company has Effect on Importation of Natural Gas — expressed some concerns. Clearly these will have to be Question by Mr Rimington taken into account when determining the best option in the long-term interests of the Island. The President: Right, we turn then to item 24 on the order paper. I call on the hon. member for Rushen, Mr The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Crowe. Rimington. Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave minister is there a working group of all the utilities for oil, to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: coal, gas, electricity? I mean is there such a group that would have some coordinated approach to the cost of fuel Can you give an assurance that the demolition of and the availability of the types of fuel? At present we the old Pulrose Power Station will not preclude, on either seem to be getting a dislocaion between gas the MEA the practical or economic grounds, the importation to the oil, coal. There does not seem to be any coordinated group Island of a single source of natural gas to facilitate a gas looking at the overall management of our future fuel supply for both electricity generation and domestic usage? resources and perhaps the minister might agree that it is worthwhile that such a body be set up? The President: Again for the Minister for Trade and Industry to reply. The President: Minister to reply.

Mr North: Mr President, as explained in the Mr North: Mr President, we have had the debate in department's report to this hon. Court last November, there this hon. Court about the way forward for the Island. We are currently two options under consideration for the are certainly, at this stage, not looking at further use of oil importation of natural gas to the Island. These are a direct or coal other than the current demands. I mean, the whole route from an Irish Sea gas field and a spur from the point about the future is - and I have been committed to proposed second inter-connector between Scotland and this for the last four or five years as have many other Southern Ireland. Whereas, in that report, we indicated that members in this Court - the main objective is to bring a decision from the Irish authorities on whether this project natural gas ashore to the Isle of Man as soon as possible. was going ahead was expected by the end of last year, I can inform members that to date no such decision has been The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson. made. The demolition of the old Pulrose Power Station is now under way and the MEA has a strict time scale for the Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I am further construction of the proposed new combined cycle gas fired pleased with the reassurances from the minister. Can he station on that site. Their priority is naturally to ensure confirm that one of the major objectives of this exercise is that they have a reliable and economical supply of gas that this will in all probability be a major advantage to the available for that power station when it is commissioned. local consumer? I can confirm that the scheme being proposed by the MEA has sufficient capacity built into the design to provide gas The President: Minister to reply. both for the electricity generation and domestic supply. Mr North: Yes, Mr President. I am hoping that when The President: Mr Rimington. we get natural gas ashore - not if but when we get it ashore and there are still some hurdles - when we get it ashore it Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. Considering will be of major benefit to the Isle of Man. We have this that there are slight question marks by Manx Gas on to the window of opportunity, as I have said in this hon. Court

Demolition of Old Pulrose Power Station — Effect on Importation of Natural Gas — Question by Mr Rimington TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T535

before, and I am not looking at the next few years, I am Planning Policy — Adoption of 'Passive Solar looking at the next 50 to 100 years benefit to the Isle of Estate Layout' — Question by Mr Rimington Man. The President: We turn then to question number 25 The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. and again I call on the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington. Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Is the hon. minister aware of a communication sent recently to Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave members under the name of C J Sidley, managing director to ask the Minister for Local Government and the of Manx Gas Limited, which states, 'There is also the future Environment: possibility of securing a natural gas supply from the proposed second Scotland to Ireland inter-connector and Will your department give serious consideration to this project alone could cost Manx Gas £15 million but the adoption, as a planning principle, of the BRECSU will only proceed if commercially viable.' Does he concur Information Report No 27 (Energy Efficiency - Best with those sentiments? Practice Programme) entitled 'Passive Solar Estate Layout'? The President: Minister to reply. The President: I call on the Minister for Local Mr North: I think probably, Mr President, I do. Government and the Environment, Mr Gilbey, to reply.

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Rimington. Mr Gilbey: Mr President, as the members of this hon. Court will be aware, the principle opportunity for Mr Rimington: Minister, bearing in mind that the formulating a new general planning policy is the strategic energy expenditure on, say, combined electricity and gas plan which the Department of Local Government and the over the next 20 years which is the average life cycle of Environment is preparing in accordance with the provisions plant that we might be putting in, is going to be around of the new Town and Country Planning Act. Part 1 of this £800 million to £900 million by the Manx Electricity Act was brought into operation in April of last year. The consumer. Does the minister not think that, with such great matters which we must keep under review and examine in expenditure, the financial details and the possibilities of the preparation of such a plan are set out in the Act and, what should be taking place at this crossroads in our energy whilst the range of these is considerable, it does not extend supply should be brought to this hon. Court for its specifically to the energy efficiency of new buildings. determination? Nevertheless, energy management is closely associated with many of the matters which are controlled by the The President: Minister to reply. planning process and accordingly a chapter on this subject was included in the consultation draft of the strategic plan Mr North: Mr President, I think those figures are totally which was published by the department last summer. I will unreasonable. I look forward to discussing with the hon. quote briefly from the introduction to the section which member where they came from. identifies the various issues relating to energy policy. I quote: 'If the expenditure on and consumption of energy, Mr Brown: Out of his head. both on an Island-wide basis and by individual companies and the domestic sector, is to be reduced then pragmatic and robust energy management and efficiency measures Mr North: I can assure you that, if the MEA is to meet will need to be implemented.' The report to which the hon. a very tight time schedule for bringing gas ashore to fuel member for Rushen refers is intended for designers and its new CCGT engines, I would respectfully suggest that developers but it does give helpful site planning and we should not be putting further stumbling blocks in their landscaping and house design advice. However, as I way. We should not in my view be risking putting the MEA previously stated in this hon. Court, the department is into a position where the deadlines that they have are not deeply concerned about the future climate change scenarios met due to, I am afraid, political interference. As I have and is committed to taking measures to mitigate the already said the MEA will design in sufficient capacity in production of greenhouse gases. I shall, therefore, certainly their scheme to enable any pipeline they bring ashore to ask the planning and architectural staff to give serious cater for their own and domestic requirements. As far as consideration to the contents of the report in the preparation the DTI is concerned, we will ensure as practically as of not only the strategic plan but also housing schemes, as possible that the chosen option also addresses the questions best practice suggests that energy savings of between three relating to quality and reliability which are of concern to and five per cent can be obtained at no additional cost. the gas company but at the end of the day a decision may have to be made on whether we throw away the chance of Mrs Crowe: Absolutely. cheap electricity in order to enable natural gas of national transmission specification to be made available. The President: Mr Rimington.

Planning Policy — Adoption of 'Passive Solar Estate Layout — Question by Mr Rimington T536 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I would like On what date are your officers and the chief officer to thank the minister for his positive and encouraging of the Isle of Man Transport meeting to discuss the remarks that the department is a bit of a modeller but is provision of a bus service into the Sea Terminal? starting to move in the right direction. Will the minister accept that some planning policies will need to be reviewed The President: Minister for Transport to reply. in light of our commitment to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and the importance of domestic energy Mr Brown: Mr President, a meeting has been scheduled consumption for space heating as a major contributor to for Monday 5th March, 2001. such omissions will impinge in the future in the broadest sense on our planning policies? The President: Mr Delaney.

The President: Minister to reply. Mr Delaney: Minister, bearing in mind that in your last answer to me in January on a similar question you Mr Gilbey: It would be certainly desirable that we indicated that my Minister for Tourism and Leisure had should change some planning policies but not only been in contact with you through the previous year - I planning policies, building byelaw regulations which have myself placed a question in January - why has it taken, as much or even more to do with the insulation of buildings will you inform the Court, two months for two officers of all types. I think also that all government departments who can virtually wave to each other on Douglas should be looking to see how they can bring about energy Promenade to get together to discuss and actually agree savings, although I think it is appropriate that the on a policy which is either yes or is no? Department of Local Government and the Environment should be the lead department regarding this matter. The President: Minister to reply.

The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. Mr Brown: Yes, the main reason for the delay, Mr President, is that we have been awaiting a response from the Department of Tourism and Leisure, public transport, Mrs Hannan: In the light of the minister's response, between 13th December and 29th January 2001. could he give us a timetable for the continuation of the strategic plan, where it is up to and also the rewriting of The President: Mr Delaney. the building byelaws? Mr Delaney: Would the minister tell us what The President: Minister to reply. information is required from the officer responsible for public transport that it is so necessary to make a decision Mr Gilbey: I have reported the timetable for the whether or not it can call into the Sea Terminal, a public strategic plan to my colleagues in the Council of Ministers building? but I am afraid I have not brought it with me because this question is not addressed to the strategic plan. I would not The President: Minister to reply. want to say anything that might not be 100 per cent accurate. Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I can quote from a letter dated 8th January 2001 from Mr Howard, the Director of Public Transport at the Department of Tourism and Leisure, where he states and I quote: 'Need to Questions in the name of Mr Duggan communicate with the political member of my department who raised the matter with me' and the letter then goes on, The President: Now, hon. members, in relation to `I will be pleased to arrange a meeting at officer level when questions 26 and 30 in the name of the hon. member for I have some further guidance from the political member Douglas South, Mr Duggan, as I indicated yesterday he who raised the matter with me'. Clearly Mr Howard did was indisposed. Speaking to him this morning he had hoped not understand, or was not fully aware of, what the to attend later this morning. He will be given the requirements of the hon. member, Mr Delaney, were when opportunity, hon. members, of either carrying those two he asked him to write the letter to my department in the questions forward or having a written answer submitted. first place. We turn then to question 27 and I call on the hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. The President: Mr Delaney.

Mr Delaney: Further supplementary, Mr President. Bearing n mind that was 8th January and since that time I Sea Terminal — Meetings to Discuss have placed a question down in this Court as a member of Provision of Bus Service — this Court, why would the two departments not understand Question by Mr Delaney that a bus is a bus and a Sea terminal is a Sea Terminal and the answer is just to put a bug to that Sea Terminal. Why Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to does he need my concurrence of any information of what ask the Minister for Transport: I require?

Questions in the Name of Mr Duggan Sea Terminal — Meetings to Discuss Provision of Bus Service — Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T537

The President: The minister to reply. way to deal with this issue. However, until the people have examined all the implications I am not willing to rush into Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I cannot really a situation that could end up causing chaos in the front of answer for the hon. member's requirements and I am sure the Sea Terminal. it is clear that the Director of Public Transport, who is a senior officer of his department, was also unaware. As The President: Question - people are not able to read the minds of members when they do not explain what they want it, is very difficult to Mr Delaney: I must ask a further supplementary, Mr find a solution. President, please, sir.

Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. Motor Mileage Questionnaire — The President: Mr Delaney, a final supplementary, sir. Response of Value for Money Committee — Mr Delaney: The minister, instead of evading the Question by Mr Delaney question, would he not give consideration, where two officers of two departments and he himself has given The President: Question 28, I think we have had our indications in this hon. Court that he has been in final supplementary, Mr Delaney, and I call on Mr Delaney communication with my chief political member, the to ask the question in his name. Minister for Tourism and Leisure, responsible for the buses, that he is the person that communications go to rather than Mr Delaney: I beg leave to ask the chairman of the to me. Value for Money Committee:

The President: The minister to reply. What is your committee's response to the answers given by all the departments of government to your motor Mr Brown: Mr President, the hon. member Mr Delaney mileage questionnaire? initiated a series of correspondence - The President: I call on the hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney: He did not: the minister did. Mr Radcliffe, to reply.

Mr Brown: The hon. member Mr Delaney initiated a Mr Radcliffe: Thank you, Mr President. I am very series of correspondence. I quote back to the 7th December, pleased to answer this question on the Value for Money 2000, a letter received by my department from Mr Howard, Committee's Annual Report because it appeared to the Director of Public Transport, and I quote: 'I am instructed committee that a lack of comment and interest that was to write to you by Mr Delaney, MLC, concerning the evinced by that report, if that was anything to go by, no- possibility of buses on their inbound journeys to Douglas one had bothered to read the thing even. That is not the setting down within the grounds of the Sea Terminal prior case and at least one member has read the report anyway. to their arrival at the Lord Street Bus Station.' I carry on For the benefit of all members, the questionnaire referred further the letter: 'He has indicated to me that if a to by the hon. member sought information and views from satisfactory solution to this cannot be arrived at by a mutual departments and statutory boards of government in relation agreement then he intends to raise the matter in Tynwald to the use of and contributions made by employees for until such time as he can obtain the authority for the buses private journeys undertaken in government vehicles. The to use this facility.' As hon. members know, I am quite results of that survey were published as an appendix to a happy to co-operate with anybody and threats do not really report produced by the Value for Money Committee on go very far with me. What I would say is that, as I indicated the subject entitled 'A Pangovernment Review of Motor to the hon. member through this Court at the January sitting, Vehicles - Private Mileage Contributions' and this is it is not so straight forward to allow buses into an area that available to any member on request and I have a copy of it can be heavily congested when the boats arrive. Therefore, here, sir. On the whole the response by chief officers to I said, as I said to his minister, I am more than happy for the Value for Money Committee's questionnaire regarding officers of my department, those who have responsibilities rates charged by departments for the use of government that could be affected by buses being re-routed through vehicles for home to duty and other private mileage was that area, to have a meeting with Mr Howard. I would say excellent. However, before I unladen hon. members as to we are not talking of two officers getting together, there the outcome of the committee's review, it might be useful are harbour responsibilities, there are the responsibilities if I explain the reasons why I considered such a review in relation to the building itself which is now quite a large was necessary. A significant factor in the assessment made office complex and, of course, the implications to the taxis by the Value for Money Committee embarking upon this who operate from that area who could be seriously effected review concerned the disparity of treatment and underlying if buses were to set down at that area. My department, and resentment felt by those employees who presently make a again I made this absolutely clear to Mr Delaney in his contribution towards such private use of their departmental question in January, I made it absolutely clear that my vehicles whilst keenly aware that employees in other department is more than willing to see if we can find a departments of government contribute little or nothing

Motor Mileage Questionnaire — Response of Value for Money Committee — Question by Mr Delaney T538 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

directly to the running costs of their vehicles. The results Reservoirs — Availability to Anglers — of the questionnaire reinforce the committee's views and Drainage of Clypse and Kerrowdhoo showed that the majority of chief officers supported change Reservoirs — Question by Mr Houghton to introduce a uniform charge for private use. The committee did not consider that liability towards The President: We turn then to question 29 and I call assessment for benefit in kind taxation to be sufficient, on the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. especially as casual users would not be subject to such rules. Perhaps the more relevant benchmark to which the Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave committee could have made reference would have been to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Water Authority: the mileage rates shown in the travel allowance orders issued by the Treasury, which currently stand at 44 pence (1) How many reservoirs will be unavailable to anglers per mile for vehicles up to 1299cc and 50 pence per mile this year as a consequence of high levels of acidity; for those vehicles of 1300cc and above. These of course and are the rates of mileage allowance members and civil servants are entitled to claim when using their own vehicles (2) do you plan to drain the Clypse and Kerrowdhoo for business purposes. The committee believed that such a reservoirs again and, if so, when and for what recommendation could have sought that such rates should reason? equally be applied to those employees using government vehicles for their private mileage. However, on balance it The President: I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of is felt that the rates currently determined by the Income Man Water Authority, Mr Karran, member for Onchan, to Tax Division as a fair contribution for casual private reply. mileage were more equitable. These rates are currently banded by engine size, namely 20 pence per mile up to Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I thank the hon. member for 1400cc, 25 pence per mile between 1400cc and 2000cc this question but regret to inform him that the Water and 37 pence per mile for vehicles with engines greater Authority is not responsible for fishing matters. I am than 2000cc. The Value for Money Committee's response therefore not able to give him the answer as far as the effects to the results highlighted by the questionnaire and further on fishing as far as acidity levels within the water in the research was to make recommendations to the Treasury reservoirs. However, let me reassure this Court that whilst for the introduction of a uniform policy in relation to the the acid water may be a problem for fish it is not a problem recovery of a standard contribution towards private use of when the water is treated in the filtration plants and there government vehicles. The report's recommendations were is no risk to the quality of water supplies. However, on adopted by the Treasury and they were indeed later part 2) of the hon. member's question I can confirm that endorsed by the Chief Officer's Group. It is difficult to the Water Authority intends to drain the reservoirs at Clypse quantify in financial terms the value of the benefit that and Kerrowdhoo this summer in order to carry out the will accrue to government in adopting these remedial works to the draw off and scour pipes as set out recommendations. However, it is believed that in the strategic business plan which was approved by this department's will indeed see a better financial return than Court in June 1999. The exact time will depend on the is currently the case and equally, if not more importantly, security of tenders as far as this work is concerned and it will introduce a far more equitable system than that which this will be the answer as far as when the work will be exists at present. carried out, Eaghtyrane. The President: The hon. member Mr Houghton. The President: The hon. member, Mr Delaney. Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Can the Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. In rising to hon. Chairman of the Authority, though, explain how the thank the chairman for this effort to protect taxpayer's authority do plan to deal with high acidity of the water in money, may I also ask when he will actually have a final the reservoirs? Would it not be reasonable to drain the decision on some of the other questions which seem to reservoirs, to arrange that those reservoirs are drained show a different policy in relation to the subject so that during the winter or the autumn months rather than the further savings may be made on behalf of the taxpayers. summer months to avoid drought circumstances and also But I do thank the chairman for the work he has put into to allow the reservoirs to fill more quickly which in turn, this answer. of course, would reduce the inconvenience to our fishermen, sir. The President: Mr Radcliffe to reply. The President: The hon. member Mr Karran to reply. Mr Radcliffe: Thank you, Mr President, can I assure the hon. member that perseverance is our second name Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, obviously my priority is to (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) and we will not be giving up. the consumers as far as our water supply is concerned, not the fishermen. Whilst I have some sympathy as far as the Mr Delaney: Tell me about it. fishermen are concerned, I must firstly point out that there

Reservoirs — Availability to Anglers — Drainage of Clypse and Kerrowdhoo Reservoirs — Question by Mr Houghton TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T539

is a problem as far as the reservoirs and the capacity for erected by the staff of a local bank some four years ago fish to live within the reservoirs. That is an issue that would and presented to the Water Authority? have to be discussed between my statutory board and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. As far Mr Houghton: Not interested. as the other side of the issue is concerned, we are talking about Clypse and Kerrowdhoo reservoirs which are a minor The President: Mr Karran. part of the water supply as far as the Island is concerned. It would be most irresponsible to try and do this not in the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, when you are talking in tens time when there is not a big flow of water going into these of millions of pounds, a bird hide on one of our reservoirs establishments at the present time. So I think it would be would not come as a high priority as far as that is concerned. wrong for me to put public safety before the inconvenience I think that what is important to remember is the fact that of the fishermen of the Island is concerned. the Water Authority has fought to make sure that as much land is made available for public access. Through the days The President: The hon. member for Douglas West, when it was trendy to want to privatise the Water Authority, Mr Downie. one of the things the Water Authority did was put public rights of way over all its land in order to discourage that Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to situation. So we do not need any lectures as far as our ask the Chairman of the Water Authority, when is the Water responsibilities as far as public access is concerned. But I Authority going to advise the Fisheries Division of DAFF think the hon. member has to realise that when we are of the dates when the reservoirs will be unavailable for talking of two new filtration plants, we are talking in the fishing? Does he not think it is unreasonable that DAFF region of, tens of millions of pounds. I will enquire who is have another item on the agenda for later today where it responsible as far as the bird hides are concerned may be possible that fees are sought to be increased for (Members: Hear, hear.) and whether it is our responsibility fishing licences and at any time it would appear that the or whether it is the responsibility of the Department of Chairman of the Water Authority could prevent fishermen from utilising the facilities of the reservoir for a large part Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. (Laughter and of the season? Can we have some answers? interjections)

The President: Mr Karran to reply. The President: A final supplementary, Mr Houghton.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, as the hon. minister knows, Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. May I ask we are talking about two reservoirs out of the number of the hon. member though, both those reservoirs in question, reservoirs that are on the Island at the present time. If there the Clypse and the Kerrowdhoo, of course, were drained is a problem with certain other reservoirs as far as the last year. Why are they draining the reservoirs once again acidity is concerned, I am sure his department can try and to do the work that should have been undertaken in one come to some arrangement in order to see whether they job lot last year? can make the reservoirs suitable as far as fish are concerned early on in the season. At the end of the day, as the A Member: That was a practice run. Chairman of the Water Authority, my priority is to the strategic long-term security as far as the water supply is The President: Mr Karran to reply. concerned. At the present time there are tenders out for this work but it is important that we remember that the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the situation is that they have likes of these pipes are well over 100 years old. They are to do a certain amount of surveying work as far as what going through the embankment and obviously what we do needs to be done for the likes of this work to start off with. not want to be doing is doing this work when there is a You cannot suddenly decide that you are going to go to all large amount of water flowing into these catchment areas. the expense without actually doing some preliminary works The minimum amount of water in these areas is obviously in the first place. I think that the hon. member must realise in the interest of getting the job done as quickly as possible, that. I am amazed that when I took over the Water Authority, Eaghtyrane. vast chunks of the Island we did not know where the pipes were, what the reservoirs were made up of, and obviously The President: The hon. member for Council, Mr what we have bad to do over the years is build up the Kniveton. information so that we can then carry out the work safely Mr Kniveton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Accepting, and effectively to know how to do what is required of these sir, that this is a very local question and obviously refers reservoirs which are over a hundred years old. to the recreational side of reservoirs, can I ask the Chairman of the Water Authority, without wasting too much time of The President: Now, hon. members, questions 31, 32 this hon. Court, when did he last visit Clypse and 33, and 34 are for written answer and along with the two Kerrowdhoo and when is his authority going to give questions from Mr Duggan, which I have already referred attention to the preservation of the bird viewing hides to, that concludes the question paper.

Reservoirs — Availability to Anglers — Drainage of Clypse and Kerrowdhoo Reservoirs — Question by Mr Houghton T540 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

Civil Service — Grades and Job Descriptions Pension Supplement — Non-Residents — — Question by Mr Duggan Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer for Written Answer

Question 30 Question 31

The hon. member for Douglas South, Mr Duggan, to The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, ask the Chairman of the Civil service Commission: to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:

How do the salaries of Isle of Man civil servants (1) What is the number of qualifying people with Manx compare with those who hold similar grades and job resident status living off the Island who would be descriptions in the United Kingdom? eligible to receive the Manx pension supplement; and Answer

Comparing the salaries of Isle of Man civil servants (2) what percentage of these people in theory would with their counterparts in the United Kingdom is not as receive 75 per cent of the Manx supplement? simple as it once was. Whilst the Civil Service Commission utilises the job evaluation and grading Answer scheme (JEGS) of the UK Civil Service, its use and application in the UK is varied and inconsistent. This To qualify for the pension supplement a person has come about because of the establishment of agencies must, among other things, be ordinarily resident on the and non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) and the Island. The expression 'ordinary residence' is not de-centralisation of collective pay bargaining. The defined in the scheme and ultimately would be for Agencies and NDPBs have been delegated full authority determination by a court. From precedents the consensus for their pay and grading arrangements and whilst most of judicial thought is that 'ordinary' contrasts with casual will still use JEGS, the type of reward system in use is or occasional or extra ordinary and that 'ordinarily varied and reflects particular service needs. resident' refers to 'a man's abode in a particular place or country which he ha adopted voluntarily and for Nevertheless, the commission uses JEGS in the way settled purposes as part of the regular order of his life it was designed and it has served us well for many years. for the time being whether of short or long duration' The use of JEGS instils confidence in the application (Shah v Barnet London BC [1983] 1 AER 226 per Lord of an objective and consistent grading scheme across Scarman at p235.) It follows that a person may be the whole of the Civil Service. But pay is a different outside the Isle of Man for extensive periods of time issue, not to be confused with grading, and whilst pay and yet still be ordinarily resident here. in the UK Civil Service may no longer be consistent, here in the Isle of Man we have come to and continue to develop a pay system which reflects not only the value Because each case therefore turns on its facts no of the work undertaken, as determined by JEGS, but statistics are available of persons living off the Island also developments in the local economy. The who are not in receipt of the pension supplement, but commission's monitoring processes give assurance that may satisfy the provisions of the scheme. we remain market competitive, particularly with regard to the administrative and support functions. Noble's Hospital — Surgical Operations — There are, of course, mechanisms which allow for Question by Mr Houghton staff to have their jobs re-evaluated if there is evidence for Written Answer that a shift in grade may have occurred and the commission's support staff in the Personnel Office remain available to advise on all such grading and pay Question 32 issues. The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton, to In considering the question of pay and comparators ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: the commission takes a broader view and looks at the wider issue of reward and, indeed, at this very time the In respect of each of the last five calendar years - commission's staff are undertaking a review of the reward strategy for the Civil Service. The approach (a) how many surgical operations were undertaken in being adopted is to consider a total reward framework the main theatre at Noble's Hospital; which will look at not only the issues of pay and benefits but also the workplace environment and the learning (b) what percentage of operations were undertaken by and development aspects of employment. locum surgeons; and

Civil Service — Grades and Job Descriptions — Question by Mr Duggan for Written Answer Pension Supplement — Non-Residents — Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer Noble's Hospital — Surgical Operations — Question by Mr Houghton for Written Answer

TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T541

(c) how many complaints were recorded against locum Answer surgeons? (1) The Department of Transport has received a Answer total of six notices concerning obstructed footpaths during the year 2000. SURGICAL OPERATIONS - NOBLE'S HOSPITAL The department employed three additional contractors in the year 2000 on trimming public 1 JANUARY 1996 - 31 DECEMBER 2000 footpaths at an extra cost of £62,000, and this reduced the number of complaints received. There were even (a) total operative procedures some compliments, from, for example, the Manx Footpaths Conservation Group; Year Number of Operations (2) All the minor obstructions to public footpaths 1996 6,835 reported during the year 2000 were cleared by the 1997 6,974 department's own workforce. 1998 7,744 1999 8,640 (3) If a reported major obstruction to a public 2000 8,021 footpath cannot be cleared directly the department initially seeks the co-operation of the landowner in (b) operative procedures performed by locum removing the obstruction. If this co-operation is not forthcoming the department would then proceed under medical staff the provisions of Section 45 of the Highways Act 1986 to either serve notice on the person responsible to Year Operations Percentages remove the obstruction or, particularly if the obstruction constitutes a danger to the public, to remove it directly. 1998 1 1,263 16.31 1999 1,124 13.01 2000 2 1,110 13.84 All-Island Power Cut — Question by Mr Rimington for Written Answer NB (i) Prior to 1998 no figures available Question 34 (ii) 1 includes a long-term locum for one of the consultant gynaecologists The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: 2 includes a long-term locum for one of the consultant general surgeons (1) In respect of the recent all-Island power cut - (c) In the five-year period there were five (a) how long was it before power was restored; complaints recorded against locum surgeons. (b) was it restored at different times in different areas of the Island and, if so, what was the reason for this; Obstructed Footpaths — Question by Mr Singer for Written Answer (c) were any of the on-Island diesel sets operating as a 'spinning reserve' at the time Question 33 of the power failure; and

The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, to ask the (d) is there an operational policy to address the Minister for Transport: possible failure, for whatever reason, of the UK/Isle of Man Inter-connector and, if so, (1) How many notices of obstructed footpaths has your what is it; department received during the last 12 months; (2) (a) how many critical sections of cable exist on the Island which, when compromised, can (2) how many of the obstructions have been trigger a major or complete network failure; satisfactorily cleared by the department; and and (3) what action has the department taken where it has (b) what plans exist to duplicate such critical not been possible to persuade the landowner to clear sections to secure the integrity of the an illegal obstruction? distribution network;

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(3) in the event of a major on-Island generation failure, published the Housing Policy Review Report 1999 which what are the protocols for utilising the UK/Isle of examined the housing situation, identified issues which Man inter-connector for securing electricity supply; required to be addressed and made recommendations on and the way forward. The report, which concluded with a series of recommendations, was received by this hon. Court at (4) in the event of a failure of any nature and when the January 2000 sitting. A progress report was published electricity demand cannot be met fully by supply, in June 2000. I undertook to provide hon. members with a does the Manx Electricity Authority have any load- further update early in 2001 to record the progress being shedding protocols? made with the housing strategy. As all hon. members will be aware, the department has a target figure of 400 new Answer houses per annum. This is being reviewed and some adjustment to take account of the increase in net (1) (a) Power was restored to some areas in 20 immigration and other factors may be necessary. If that minutes, while the final area to be restored took proves to be the case the department will revise its target 2.5 hours. figure and consider what more needs to be done to improve the provision of housing. During the last calendar year 433 (b) The Douglas area was first to be restored, new housing units were constructed, including 79 public followed soon after by the rest of the Island. The housing units, 52 general and 27 elderly persons units being last area to be restored was that fed by the included in that 79. Within the target of a total of 400 new original fault. housing units per annum there are sub-figures of (a) 80 public housing units being both general and elderly persons (c) The concept of spinning reserve does not units and 80 first time buyer units. The public housing apply to the operation of interconnectors. figure has almost been met, 79 against a target of 80 and the department is confident that the production of first time (d) The authority's policy for operation and buyers' units should be on target by the end of the calendar maintenance of the interconnector is that which year 2001. The number of projected public housing general applies to all such interconnectors operated by units for 2002-2005 is 222. The number of general housing the National Grid Company. units that are available will be enhanced by transfers of residents from general units to both elderly persons' The possible loss of an interconnector is housing and first-time buyers' units. As the interest from mitigated by designed protection and burial depth. potential first-time buyers is in the order of 350 applicants The Island's interconnector followed industry and the projected target for first-time buyers' units is 400 practice to the highest standards. for 2000-2005 inclusive, any enhanced target figure would be likely to be committed to public housing. Planning (2) (a) There are no such sections of cable. approval was granted for 666 housing units during the year 2000. The current target figures and any amended figure (3) Normal operation of the interconnector permits should be substantially exceeded, therefore, in the calendar continuous use at a level of 40MW. This rating can year 2001. The department has identified a gap between be elevated to 60MW for a restricted period of 30 public housing and first-time buyers. The department hopes minutes. that this can be filled by housing association developments and this is an issue under active consideration and the (4) The authority does have load shedding protocols search for a site in Douglas is underway. Also, the needs which would be followed should demand exceed of young single persons will have to be quantified and supply. analysed. It may be that many of these persons are actually adequately housed but aspire to greater independence. The These are categorised as either planned (when work the department has in progress on this matter should the situation has been foreseen) or emergency help to clarify these issues. The department has previously shedding (where sudden loss of plant leaves the indicated that sufficient land is available in the short to remaining plant unable to meet demand.) medium term to meet housing needs, and that remains the case, but the choice of location is limited. Additional land is constantly coming on stream through the area plans but Housing — Statement by the Minister for the processing of such plans is likely to become increasingly contentious. Therefore the department will Local Government and the Environment look to hon. members to acknowledge the need to find new land across the Island which is suitable for rezoning The President: We turn then, hon. members, to item 3 and to support the department in its efforts. The department on the order paper, Statement by the Minister for Local is continually seeking the acquisition of additional sites Government and the Environment, and I call on Mr Gilbey. for social housing and no less than 20 sites are currently under consideration. Hon. members will appreciate that Mr Gilbey: Mr President, in November 1999 the land for housing is at a premium and likely to remain so. Department of Local Government and the Environment The department has just finished a more detailed report

Housing — Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T543

covering all of these issues and I shall be circulating this Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Just thanking at the end of this current week. It will show that the the minister for his statement this morning, but I would department is working extremely hard on many fronts and urge the minister to replicate this process in three months is determined to meet its targets. time in order to give this Court an ongoing update. This issue has been and continues to be one of the major political The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr issues that we face and therefore I would urge him to Karran. consider returning to this Court with an update in June, sir. Mr Karran: Can I ask the minister, out of these new units for local authorities, how many are just simply The President: The hon. member for Peel. replacing local authority housing units and how many out of these 79 are actually new ones, because I think you will Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Could I ask the find that that is not the case. The second question I would minister if on all this land that is zoned for development, like to ask the minister with his 400 new houses, how many is it the Department of Local Government's policy to bring of them are under £100,000? I would be very interested to forward design briefs so that they can act as a guide to know. And how many of them are over a quarter of a million developers instead of all the development here being of those 400 houses and how many of them are affordable development led and then that would - by the majority of people in the Island? Mrs Crowe: Yes, clear guidelines. The President: Minister. Mrs Hannan: - because my concern would be that at Mr Gilbey: Mr President, am Ito answer them? least people would know and be involved in that design brief instead of having to fight, as the minister has The President: Well, I will call on the hon. member expressed in recent weeks concern about local groups not for Ramsey, Mr Bell, then. wanting development. But if the Department of Local Government provided local communities with a design Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. Just a question for brief and an involvement in a design brief, it might help to clarification please. The hon. minister has made reference mitigate against some of the concerns that are expressed to the special needs of young single people. Can I have an when new housing is suggested. assurance from the minister that his department are actively pursuing the problem of single people generally on the Mrs Crowe: Hear, hear. Island because they are the most vulnerable group of all at the present time and are likely to find their situation The President: The hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. worsened if amendments to local authority qualifications go through? Mr Quine: Yes, I would just ask the minister if he could confirm that in relation to all house sales last year, 46 per The President: The hon. member for Douglas North, cent were sold at under £120,000. Mr Henderson. The President: The minister to reply. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I appreciate the statement the minister said, but can he answer for me, Mr Gilbey: Well, starting in reverse order, I am most where he identified the grey area between the public sector grateful to my hon. colleague in the department who I am housing and first-time buyers, which is exactly the area glad to pay tribute to for the vast amount of work that he is my empty properties initiative is aimed at, where that will doing on the housing front. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) I actually fit in to help support and alleviate that? Could he mean I have looked at the minutes of his directorate's indicate that because it is is not mentioned in this very meeting the other day and there is about 15 pages all supportive statement? Could he also give an indication in devoted to the work being done (Mr Houghton: Hear, the figures he is using to quote to this hon. Court, if his hear.) to try and provide more houses - department has actually answered my previous calls and gone to the estate agents to look at figures on their books Mr Karran: We want some action then. and also other areas to assess whether this figure of projected housing requirements based on the first-time Mr Houghton: There is action. buyers list is actually correct? Would he not re-examine things because I feel there may well be more of a need Mr Gilbey: - but I am grateful to him for I think than he thinks 9 I would reiterate the question raised by my answering the point made by the hon. member for Onchan, hon. colleague opposite, Mr Karran, in relation to house Mr Karran, about how many of the 400 houses were at prices. We need to re-examine the prices that these are what prices. I could not give a better answer than the hon. being turned out at, Mr President. member for Ayre has done. Continuing with Mr Karran's point, how many public sector houses are replacement? The President: The hon. member for Douglas West, We have always said that a proportion of those are. That Mr Shimmin. has been perfectly clear and I cannot remember off-hand

Housing — Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment T544 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

exactly how many but there is no point in hiding the fact the building control regulations. I think she was also that some of them are replacement. We all know the ones touching on a kind of design for houses or estates. This at Donkeyfields and elsewhere are, but I think it is just as seems to me much more difficult because the architects' important to ensure that our people have decent houses as directorate should be considering the desirability of each to ensure that we provide more houses for them. The hon. estate in relation to where it is. Obviously the design for member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, asked what are older single somewhere on a hill would be different to that for people to do. I know he has very much in mind the idea somewhere that is dead flat. I beg your pardon. that we should be able to have arrangements, which are not possible under the existing law, that single sort of rooms Mrs Hannan: It has to be individual. should be let out to them and again the department is certainly looking at this. It was thought to be socially Mr Gilbey: The hon. member says it has to be undesirable and that is why it is not approved at the present individual in which case I cannot see how we can have a time, but certainly the department are looking at this. The total brief for estates to tell people what they should do. hon. member, Mr Henderson, asked how will his initiative Certainly we are aiming at high standards or the directorate tie in with what we are doing? Well, everyone will under my colleague the member of Council, Mr Crowe, is remember his very good initiative which has been taken aiming for high standards and they are aiming for diversity on and the chairman regarding which is my hon. colleague, as well, so that we do not have rows and rows of houses Mr Houghton, and they are looking hard at this question that all look the same. I hope, Mr President, that I have of empty houses, empty properties and of course I think satisfactorily answered hon. members questions, but I they have already. . . I beg your pardon? would say that when they get the report, if they have any questions we should be very pleased to answer them - that The President: Continue, minister. is either the political members of the department or the officers - and even more important we should be glad to Mr Gilbey: They are looking at this and I think it has hear of any ideas they have which would speed up the already been suggested they can found about a hundred development and provision of houses and if they know of places that could be used (A Member: Hear, hear.) for any areas that they could recommend that should be zoned homes and obviously this means a hundred more homes for residential development, because we are all in this are available for those needing them and this is an together and the more help that we can get from all hon. extremely valuable contribution when it comes about to members of this Court the more grateful we shall be. the supply of houses. The hon. member for West Douglas also asked were the housing lists up-to-date? Well, all I The President: Hon. members, I think at this stage it is can say is that the officers of the department, I think, get an appropriate time in which to adjourn for lunch and the monthly reports from the housing authorities and we can Court will resume at item 4 at 2.30.p.m. Thank you, hon. only rely on what we are told. I am only stating in the members. report, which all hon. members will get shortly, what we have been told. I cannot swear that it is true, but we rely The Court adjourned at 1.08 p.m. on the local authorities to provide accurate figures and certainly I would be extremely upset, to put it at its mildest, as I know with Mr Quine, if the figures produced by our Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) own department were not correct. So I think in the absence of any evidence that they are wrong we should accept that Regulations 2001 — Approved they are correct. The hon. member for West Douglas asked for a further report in June. I personally think that is too The President: Please be seated, hon. members. We soon, after all June is only about four months away. have reached item number 4 on the order paper and I call Important as this matter is, it is more important than on the Minister for Transport, the hon. member for constantly reporting to this hon. Court, important as such Castletown, Mr Brown, to move. reports are, that we should get on with the job of providing more houses. As it does take the officers a considerable Mr Brown: Well, thank you, Mr President. I beg to amount of time to keep producing reports, I would suggest move: that our next report should be contained in the policy document which will be circulated in September. The hon. That the Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, asked about design briefs. Regulations 2001. [SD No 47/01] be approved. As I see it there are two kinds of design briefs. The first kind is actually the specifications of a house, i.e. what This motion is relative to the principal harbour dues square footage there has got to be as a minimum et cetera regulations which apply to merchant vessels, that is to and this is covered in two ways, first under our building passenger and cargo ships, excluding fishing vessels, work regulations for developments with which the department boats, construction barges, pleasure vessels and house boats has no close connection, but where we are talking of public which are dealt with in separate regulations. The proposed sector houses - and we are also talking of first-time buyers (Merchant Vessels) Harbour Dues Regulations will, subject - our standards are far higher and they are more favourable to Tynwald approval today, replace the regulations of the specifications for occupiers than the general ones under year 2000 which came into operation on 1st April 2000.

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The harbour dues on merchant vessels will not be increased tugs for which dues are paid on an annual basis. Mr from 1st April 2001. The increase in the previous year was President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 2 per cent. It is not proposed to increase harbour dues for merchant vessels in view of the growth in income from Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my increased harbour traffic varying between 7 per cent and remarks. 10 per cent. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. The President: The hon. member for Council, Mr Waft.

Mr Kniveton: Yes, Mr President, I beg to second, sir, Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder if the and reserve my remarks. minister might like to clarify with regards to payment of dues and regulations being made and registrations whether The President: Hon. members, the motion is that there is any notice or any account taken of the possibility printed at 4 on your order paper. Will those in favour please of these vessels not having third party insurance. Does he say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. go into that side of it at all and would he like to make any comment on insurance of some of the vessels that are at the moment within the harbour precincts and are in a pretty derelict state some of them. Would he like to make Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels, Work Boats comment on that as well? Thank you, Mr President. and Construction Barges) Regulations 2001 — Approved The President: The minister to reply.

The President: Item 5, the Minister for Transport. Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. On the last bit first about some of the vessels in our harbours in a Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I beg to derelict state, we have a relatively active programme with move: the port managers and we have powers which are very strong powers under the Harbours Act. We do take action That the Harbour Dues (Fishing Vessels, Work on that and have had a number of vessels removed, Boats and Construction Barges) Regulations 2001 [SD No certainly in the last couple of years, from round the Island 48/01] be approved. and the powers are quite strong for our department to remove it if nothing happens and then charge the owner. Previously entitled the Fishing Vessels and Tugs So if there is a specific vessel the hon. member is aware Regulations, the proposed regulations for 2001 are to be of, I am more than happy to hear about that and we would named the Fishing Vessels, Work Boats and Construction certainly investigate it. The other issue is with regards to insurance. Again my understanding on this, and I stand to Barges Regulations. The inclusion of work boats and construction barges within the proposed regulations is to be corrected, is that is not a matter for us in terms of harbour assist with the removal of an anomaly for charging vessels dues. Harbour dues are a charge for using a service, basically the same as if you went to go for a swim you pay engaged in civil engineering works around the Island. to get inside to use that facility. A harbour happens to be Presently the current regulations require these vessels to the same sort of provision. Insurance of course is a matter pay dues each time they berth in a harbour and as this may for the individual or the individual businesses and if they be several times per day in the course of their work in and do not have adequate insurance of course then they are around the harbour it is clearly inappropriate. This potentially liable in a different way through the courts. If amendment would permit such vessels to pay an annual we do not already have a provision, I would not want our figure in line with that which has been successfully used department really to get involved in that aspect of the for many years for fishing vessels and tugs. The department operation of boats, whether they be commercial or privately recommends to Tynwald that harbour dues for fishing owned individual pleasure craft. I think that really is a vessels, work boats and construction barges be increased matter of responsibility clearly on the owner. I hope that by 3.3 per cent, rounded up to the nearest penny to reflect answers the points, Mr President. inflation, which has occurred only since April 2000. Work boats and construction barges therefore will be charged in The President: Hon. members, the motion before you the same way as tugs and fishing vessels, that is dues may is printed at 5 on your order paper, that the Harbour Dues be paid annually for the year ending 31st March. The (Fishing Vessels, Work Boats and Construction Barges) previous increase in these harbour dues came into operation Regulations 2001 be approved. Will those in favour please on 1st April 2000. The proposed new rates will come into say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. operation on 1st April 2001 if the regulations are approved by Tynwald Court today. The average increase for Manx vessels will be £1.85 for the coming year. As an example of the proposed increases in harbour dues the annual dues Harbour Dues (Pleasure Vessels and House on a fishing vessel, not exceeding 40 tonne, will increase Boats) Regulations 2001 — Approved from £55.93 to £57.78 as from the coming 1st April. As well as the 82 Manx fishing vessels in respect of which The President: Item 6, again I call on the Minister for dues are paid annually, there are also two locally based Transport to move.

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Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: of Transport in relation to these pleasure craft and house boat dues and just to ascertain for my own interest if he That the Harbour Dues (Pleasure Vessels and House could state on the public record exactly how much they Boats) Regulations 2001 [SD No 49/01] be approved. are going to go up by again and are these new transit dues and slipway dues, as I understand it, applicable to the small This motion is relative to the Harbour Dues Regulations boat users of the harbour, or could be applicable in certain applying to pleasure vessels and house boats. The harbour circumstances, and could he confirm that this is nothing dues on these vessels was last increased from April 2000 but a stealth tax on the small boat users and craft users of and it is proposed to increase them by 3.3 per cent rounded Douglas Harbour? I would also like to place on the record, up to the nearest penny with effect from 1st April 2001 to Mr President, that as far as the Douglas section of the Small reflect inflation over the past year. In respect of harbour Boats and Harbours Users Section are not entirely happy dues for pleasure craft and house boats, it is proposed that with these increases and are very, very concerned with the visitors dues should not be increased as they are at a level grandfather rights what is happening in this harbour and which is comparable with the United Kingdom and to that all the works that are going on is a bridge too far in provide a differential for rates, which may be charged for our harbour in Douglas. We would also concur with the visitors that use the pontoons in Douglas inner harbour. minister's observations that the works in the harbour have There are two extra categories of dues to be added to the caused disruption to the small craft and of course staining proposed 2001-2002 regulations in respect of harbour dues on the hulls and various other things. To be quite honest, for pleasure craft and house boats. They are first a transit Mr President, the small boat users and craft users, although due of £2 per entry to be levied on vessels visiting the we have had some consultation, have been pushed round Island and transitting through a harbour into an area to from pillar to post and lost the Tongue in the long run to which section 58A of the Harbours Act applies. As hon. this giant concrete edifice that is coming and it simply is members will be aware, 58A is where the department not fair and we would like some comment back from the designates an area, for example, within a marina whether hon. minister when he sums up. it be at Ramsey, Douglas or anywhere else and therefore has a different control and maybe even Port St Mary. The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Secondly, expansion of the slipway due to take account of Cannell. larger vessels. In previous years the slipway due has been a single rate to be applied to all vessels regardless of size Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I do not have and was based on an assumption that slipway launched vessels were generally small dinghies. The increase in the the same argument as the pfeceding speaker although I do size of trailer-launched vessels and particularly rigid have a lot of sympathy with him because I did speak earlier inflatable boats has indicated that the slipway dues should on about what I described as the destruction of Douglas be based on a sliding scale depending on the length as far Harbour at the whim of car parking (A Member: Hear, as standard harbour dues. The department has consulted hear.) Maybe there are those who remember me paralleling with the Manx Yachting Association and the Isle of Man it to what they have done in a beautiful part of the Channel Harbour Users Association regarding the proposed Islands to achieve the same effect and totally destroyed increase. The Isle of Man Harbour Users Association the character of the place. But I am talking here now considered that a reduction in harbour dues was required particularly on the specifics of the increases in fees and I because of the disruption to Douglas Harbour arising from just wonder sometimes if indeed it is necessary to go the ongoing work in the area. A meeting was subsequently through all this rigmarole to actually produce such a small held, whereupon the specific concerns were addressed and amount of money. I was given a great lesson in such their representatives accepted the increase proposed by my economics one time when I saw a gentleman at the back department. The Manx Yachting Association has indicated of the TT Grandstand, a highly paid government executive, its broad acceptance of the proposed increase and changes. because the TT Grandstand area had been fenced off for a It is anticipated that the new level of dues proposed will trade site and they were charging people to get in. People result in additional income of approximately £2,125 of who have come to the Isle of Man at hundreds of pounds which £2,125 is anticipated to be received in respect of expense and they were charging them a pound to get in. It Manx pleasure craft. The overall revenue received in the is a long time ago, but it was a bank holiday, it was Friday current year from pleasure craft is anticipated to be in the Senior Race Day and they had a senior government order of £79,200 of which around £62,800 arises from employee sitting at a card table taking a pound off everyone Manx pleasure craft. There are currently 2,592 pleasure to get in and it did not take much working out if you stood vessels and houseboats registered on the Island. Mr there for a quarter of an hour to work out that the rate of President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. pay that he was on for the quarter of an hour compared with the income he was getting was totally disproportionate Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my and when you add all the other bureaucratic nonsense that remarks. goes into all this I sometimes wonder if we would not be better saying occasionally to people who have had a rough The President: Mr Henderson. run really, the boat owners and people like that, 'Okay, well, forget the increases we will just stick as we are. At Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like least you will get a few quid out of it.' Because it is going to place some queries to the minister for the Department to cost a lot more money to run these schemes sometimes.

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Someone is going to be there with a ticket machine or and foremost I have no choice because under the Harbours whatever system is used to do it. All in all I just wonder Act I have to bring any increase in harbour dues to this about the sound economic basics of all these things. I know hon. Court for approval. I would be very happy to have a if you levy a charge of £5 and you do not put the money situation like I have at the airport where I do not have to up for 20 years suddenly some bright spark then has the bring it here, but of course that would mean a change in idea that it should become £10 and people like me stand the primary legislation and may not necessarily be up and say that is 100 per cent increase and why is it over welcomed by everybody. As far as whether or not we leave the rate of inflation? But when you mess people about as it alone, yes, what I can say to the hon. member is that we we have done with this and it is too late to go back now do consider every year whether or not it is appropriate to seemingly anyway, I still lament it for all that, wouldn't it propose an increase to the harbour dues. As can be seen in have been easier just to say 'Okay, boys, well we will stick one of the regulations that the Court has approved today for now on this and see how we get on. See if you are still we have recommended no increase. But it is based on what as unhappy in five years time.' Not just on this particular we believe to be sound decision of taking into account the element of charges, but across government. No-one ever business change that has happened and also the whole seems to sit back and say 'Is it worth going through all situation where we have had a substantial increase in this caper to produce a small amount of money?' £79,000 income because of the operation of that facility by the type is not a small amount of money I know and, you have got of vessels that were using it. Now then as far as this is to levy something on it or people just expect everything concerned we believe the increase this year of 3.3 per cent for free and I am also mindful of the point of view that throughout the whole Island is justified. I have to say, if I people say if you give everything free people do not go then to the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr appreciate it. That is certainly true in some regards. But Henderson, who then questioned and wanted certain things sometimes by the time you have gone through all this on record, well again I repeat what I said when I introduced performance of having departmental meetings and new these regulations, the increase is 3.3 per cent rounded up. regulations and heaven knows what the total product of a That is quite straightforward. Yes, any boat owner who £2 increase for entering our harbour seems paltry and if uses a slipway will pay a due. They do now, they will pay people are coming into our harbour surely they are it in the future and I would have thought he would have spending a good lot of time with us, they are spending welcomed the point that we are actually saying the bigger money, we welcome them. We do not just shove the doors the boat that uses it the more they will pay, because that up and say 'Sorry that will be two quid for the privilege of will help those then offset costs for those who have smaller coming.' boats. It will help them. As far as grandfather rights, again I would hate a myth to be generated by hon. members and The President: The minister to reply. especially by those with a personal interest in this subject. The boat owners in Douglas as everywhere else have no Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. Just grandfather rights. The harbours belong to the people of endeavouring to respond to the points raised by the hon. the Isle of Man and they have an access into those harbours, members. If I take Mr Cannell first, I would just say that full stop. A harbour is like a car park. You own nothing. the car parking provision that is being developed over part You are allowed into our harbour as long as you pay the of the river between South Quay and the Tongue, first it due that we ask you to pay. So they have no rights except was an issue that was well debated here in this hon. Court they have a right of access into the harbour. If a section and was approved by Tynwald Court and secondly, maybe 58A is brought in they will have no rights in that area unless most importantly, it is endeavouring us to utilise an area they pay an additional due and that is a matter for this hon. where we know we had to go out into the harbour anyway Court, if a 58A comes in, wherever that may be. for developing the road infrastructure to ensure that we could improve the traffic flows in and out of Douglas and Mr Cannell: They own it. very importantly, and I must remind hon. members of this, reduce the amount of heavy traffic movements by heavy Mr Brown: The people of the Isle of Man own the goods wagons in and around the North Quay area and again harbours, not the boat owners. The boat owners pay a fee re-emphasising to hon. members, that this is part of an to use the harbour. There is a big distinction. As I said the ongoing programme which is of course to uplift the whole best one is a car park. The Department of Transport owns of this area. We are endeavouring to do that and a phase a car park. You do not own it because you use it, you just that will come in after this will be partial pedestrianisation have the right to use it if you pay the fee to go in there. The of the North Quay which will have an amazing impact on same principle,-no difference. Now as far as the disruption what was an old harbour which was a work harbour is concerned and the point that people have been pushed providing for coal boats and all sorts of things that used to from pillar to post. I mean quite honestly, talk about an go on in that area. So in 10 years time they will look back exaggeration. We have worked hard to talk backwards and and say 'Wow, weren't we right to do it?' Because the forwards with these people from this association, who by whole place will have been improved substantially and the way only set themselves up about a year ago after all the whole ambience of the area will have been lifted. That the proposals had been in the public - (Interjection) no we is where we are coming from, that is our vision and this is did talk to them. The hon. member said 'Because we would part of that development. As far as the procedure we are not talk to them.' I refute that. Our people spoke to the going through, which the hon. member questioned, first organisations who were there. This organisation was set

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up by a number of people in self-interest because they Against: Mr Delaney - 1 wanted the harbour dues reduced and I would say to this hon. Court, as I have said in answers to questions, when The President: Hon. members, 7 for and 1 against in you see. . . and I am all for people owning boats, so do not the Council, the motion therefore carries. get me wrong, no problem at all. It brings a lot of pleasure to many people, but in all reality they pay a very small sum per year for their pleasure craft. A very small sum Corporate Service Providers (Fees) when you take into account other costs that fall on other Regulations 2001 — Approved people throughout the Island for their pleasure facilities, so the department recognises that and endeavours to be as The President: We turn then, hon. members, to item 7 fair as it can with the charges it implements. As far as the on the order paper and I call upon the Minister for the disruption is concerned, well, all I can say is you cannot Treasury, the hon. member Mr Corkill, to move. make an omelette without breaking eggs and we have got to develop the harbour in the way we are doing. The Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: benefits that are happening in Douglas Harbour - and I find it unfortunate when people are moaning, when they That the Corporate Service Providers (Fees) look at the facilities and the improvement of facilities in Regulations 2001 [SD No 54/01] be approved. the Douglas Harbour and other harbours throughout the Isle of Man where we have got a programme. We get no Section 26 of the Corporate Service Providers Act 2000, moaning from other areas because the other people which came into operation on 1st November 2000, recognise that we have improved facilities for them in terms empowers the Financial Supervision Commission, after of shower facilities, toilet facilities, harbourside facilities consulting with the Treasury, to prescribe the fees which and we have still got some way to go. And yet we tend to shall be paid on the making of an application for the issue constantly get from some a regular moan about what goes of a CSP licence and by each licensed CSP annually on in Douglas. All I can say is they have a lot to gain from thereafter. The scale of fees for a full category 1 CSP this because there is a substantial investment going into licence for those persons who are currently operating CSP the inner harbour in Douglas which they will ultimately businesses, is based on the number of client companies benefit from. Mr President, I think that this is a reasonable for which they provide services. In future years when the increase we are asking for. We have taken into account the CSP licensing regime is in place applications for licences points that were raised. At the end of the day the association will be on those seeking to set up new CSP businesses and advised our people that they were content with the increase. there will be a fixed fee for applications for a category 1 They still have a number of concerns, but don't we all? licence. A category 2 CSP licence is a restricted licence Because we have a programme of uplifting and improving for the provision of directorship services only. An harbour facilities round the Island. Therefore I hope hon. application for a category 2 licence must be accompanied members will support the regulations before them. I beg by a fixed fee that is lower than any of the category 1 to move. licence application fees. The regulations also set out the scale of annual fees payable on 1st August each. year. For The President: The motion, hon. members, is that category 1 CSP licence holders the annual fee is related to printed at 6 on the order paper. Will those in favour please the number of client companies which the licence holder say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. provides CSP services. For category 2 CSP licence holders there is a fixed annual fee. Those affected by the A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: introduction of a CSP licensing regime were consulted on the fee scales. Basing the application and annual fees on In the Keys - the number of client companies for which a CSP provides services was considered to be a fair indicator of the size of For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Mrs Crowe, the CSP business. The relevant fees payable on application Messrs Rimington, Brown, Braidwood, Shimmin, for a category 1 licence and annually thereafter take account Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, Bell, Karran, of the resources required to licence and regulate that entity. Corkill, Gelling, and the Speaker - 17 Where there may be lower demands on the Financial Supervision Commission's resources, the fees have been Against: Messrs Houghton, Henderson, Mrs Cannell and set accordingly. Mr President, I beg to move that the Mr Cannell - 4 Corporate Service Providers (Fees) Regulations 2001 be approved, sir. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries 17 votes in favour and 4 votes against. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. In the Council - The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Waft, Kniveton, printed at 7 on your order paper. Will those in favour please Radcliffe, Mrs Christian and Mr Crowe - 7 say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

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Inland Fisheries (Duties) Regulations the department will look to address the situation by perhaps 2001 — Approved extending fishing in some way next year or by providing for special concessions. However, on a brighter note, there is a joint initiative at the moment with the Water Authority The President: We turn then to item 8 and I call on the to provide improved car parking facilities and an attractive Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the hon. approach to the Ballure reservoir. Our Forestry and Wildlife member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, to move. Divisions will also be involved in providing an Mr Downie: Yes, Mr President. I beg to move: environment in that area which is attractive and suitable not only for anglers but other members of the public and That the Inland Fisheries (Duties) Regulations 2001 also those who want to enjoy the flora and fauna of this area. Mr President, I beg to move. [SD No 23/01] be approved. Mr Singer. My department sets the duties for angling licences on The President: an annual basis. Our level of duties is very favourable for Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to second and, in doing the quality of angling that is available. Hon. members may well have seen the frequent reports of record fish being so, can I say that I was rather disappointed this morning at caught in recent years. It is a tribute to the work of the the answer by the hon. chairman of the Water Authority staff at Lhag Vollagh Hatchery that the quality of fishing when he basically stated that they were not prepared to opportunities has caught the imagination of the angling even look into the situation and help the anglers, that his only responsibility was to the Water Authority. I believe public. It has attracted enthusiastic comments, not just from Island based anglers but also from journalists and from that they could, if they wished to, certainly give us a lot the angling press who compare angling in the Island very more detail and give us greater guidance as to what they favourably with other areas, particularly at the cost of the are going to do to help the anglers for this present season. So I do express my disappointment in that but I second the licence. The quality available would cost an angler considerably more in other places than it does in our Island. motion. However, hon. members will note that we are holding the price of some of the licences, particularly those for younger Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. anglers, at the same level as in the 2000 season. Whilst elsewhere there is an increase to the cost of some angling The President: Hon. member Mr Karran. licences for the forthcoming season their duties are still fairly modest. Two sorts of licences are available, one for Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the hon. member who has the reservoirs and one for any other waters. Anglers up to got the responsibility within the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry have any idea who is responsible as the age of 19 can purchase a licence at a reduced rate. far as anglers are concerned and inland fisheries are Anglers can purchase a licence to fish (a) for the season, (Mrs from March and April through to the end of October, for a concerned? It is nothing to do with the Water Authority. Hear, hear.) The Water Authority has spent years of seven day period or for a single day. The three lowest priced Hannan: licences are held at £3, £5.50 and £10.50. Licences which neglect it has been the poor relation as far as getting its cost £29 last year will be increased by £1 to £30 whilst the infrastructure sorted out. It has taken years of manipulation highest price licence for the reservoir season increases by to get it sorted out and the reason why we are in this situation £2.50 from £87.50 to £90. These two figures are round is because we want to renew certain parts of the reservoirs about three per cent and currently reflect the rate of which are over 100 years old. Which is more important, a inflation. Our reservoirs are a valuable resource for angling few of your votes as far as your anglers are concerned - or having a wholesome public water supply? I think it really is and there may be the possibility of holding a round of an international fishing competition in some of our waters. nonsense. If the hon. member had any sincerity as far as this The organisers are favourably impressed with the sites is concerned, instead of just gimmickry he would be talking themselves and in the quality of the fishing available. in his own department about whether there is something that However, since agreeing the level of duties for angling could be done as far as the acidity of other reservoirs at this time of year. Now if he wants to do that all well and good but licences this year and obtaining the concurrence of Treasury the Water Authority has got enough to do without worrying to put them forward in the form before this hon. Court about providing the facilities as far as the anglers are today, I have been given to understand that the Water concerned. I do find it rather amazing: another classic example Authority will be carrying out further remedial work on is the fact of lead in water - Something that is a public health the Clypse and Kerrowdhoo reservoirs. Hon. members may issue, something that should be a government issue, but that remember that works were carried out there last year. It is is palmed off on to the Water Authority and the ratepayers. only fair to let anglers know that it looks at the moment as We get these members with forked tongue who whinge about if the Clypse and Kerrowdhoo will be unavailable for about the water quality and then whinge about how the water rates three or four weeks round about the end of April or the are going up and we have a situation where we have to do beginning of May. However, that will still leave five this work and we do not want to have to do this work but months or more of good quality fly fishing at the Clypse these reservoirs are over 100 years old. Which is more and Kerrowdhoo from late May through to the end of important, public safety or the little pressure group as far as October. But I should stress that should the closure continue this is concerned? I believe this Court is turning into just a

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sound bite for different pressure groups and not looking after The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. the real issues. I must also say whilst I am up I am delighted that the minister has announced the situation over Ballure Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I would agree Reservoir, something that we fought for for many years. We with some of the contents of the speech of the hon. member hope that it will add to the availability not just to our reservoir for Douglas West but I would also agree with the member and our fishermen but also maybe to give access to Albert for Onchan. In issuing licences to fish there is no guarantee Tower and things for the less fit in our community. I hope that there will be fish in any of the reservoirs because of that we will have the cooperation, that this facility will be the standard of water in the reservoirs, no guarantee provided without once again falling on the responsibility of whatsoever. The Department of Agriculture is not going the ratepayers and then we have the same members to put fish into water where the fish are not going to survive complaining about us spending our money. so therefore cannot be fished. So there is no guarantee when you are selling a licence that it is a licence to fish in just Mr Singer: It is our idea, not yours. any reservoir. Some of the reservoirs are closed for different reasons. The two reservoirs that we are talking about now Mr Karran: It is not your idea, we have been are for maintenance purposes and I think we should negotiating it for three years. welcome the investment. Many countries do not have water, many countries do not have reservoirs and we have The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. it on our doorstep, all right sometimes we have too much, but it is there and it is an added amenity to provide for Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy with fishing within these reservoirs. I am concerned that it has these particular Duties Regulations. I have got some been suggested that different people have a bunker responsibility, Mr Lowey and myself, for trying to sell the mentality. Yes I have been in a bunker when people have Isle of Man to anglers coming in but could the minister been throwing questions at me over various issues. That is give us an assurance that, with the angling season due to part of what politics is all about (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.), open shortly, it will be able to provide this facility not only robust questioning of the executive to find out exactly what for our own anglers but for the people off the Island. Could is going on. But what concerns me is that there is this setup I ask that please? of ministers and I believe that is where some of the discussion should be, within the ministerial setup, minister The President: Hon. member for Douglas West, Mr to minister, and not actually conflict when it comes to here Shimmin. using information that -people have found within government circles to play one off against another. So I Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly, very agree with some of the comments of the member for West supportive of the motion before us today. Whilst I had a Douglas but I also understand the responsibilities - because period of time with responsibility for fisheries we did I have been on the Water Authority - but the responsibility attempt to keep the duty fee down. I am delighted to see which the Water Authority has to keep the water flowing the department is continuing that. It is something whereby and to keep the water clean and wholesome for us. It is a a wholesome healthy outdoor activity which is able to be real responsibility for them and if we are going to say, afforded by all young people on the Island is to be `Now they've got to make sure that the fish are fine for congratulated. The increases proposed I think are still very anglers', then that is an added responsibility for them which reasonable for the fishermen and I am sure they will be I do not think legislatively they have. grateful. The hon. member for Onchan I believe is understandably defending his corner with regard to the The President: Minister to reply. Water Authority but it does highlight something I tried to allude to yesterday which is where we are in danger Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I did not realise continually of going into the trenches when there are issues we were going to attract so much attention. Mr Singer, the where we should be working together. Now it is the nature member with the responsibility for fishing did express his of the combatitive force of questions and some of the disappointment. I have to have some sympathy with his comments made but we do have to try and get out of these views and I also must have some sympathy with Mr Karran's views because I think we have to accept that the bunkers and actually work with each other (Mr Delaney: primary purpose of the reservoirs is to supply the Island's Hear, hear.), and that does not mean with a position of water supply and then if we can have an amenity use - supremacy from one department nor does it mean hiding fishing, sailing, bird watching, all the other countryside behind responsibilities which are there but need to be pursuits - obviously the management and the quality of broadened. I do sympathise enormously with the member the water must take priority. So I would accept what he for Onchan, the job he has in front of him in the Water says. I think that there is a good working relationship Authority we are all aware of, but I do think this is an between the Water Authority and DAFF, that has been example where the bunker mentality does come in and I proven by the way we have cooperated to produce the very think we have all got to work hard to avoid it, sir. valuable documents relating to the protection of our water. I hope that when he does get his dates when the Clypse Mr Karran: What do you want me to do, look after and Kerrowdhoo Reservoirs are going to be closed, we fish as well now? will be able to try and find a way of working round that

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and alter our stocking regime accordingly so that the fishing (b) approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding fraternity will not be so severely affected. I thank Mr £1,735,500 being made by government, to be repaid Delaney for his remarks. Fishing, unless you know a little over 30 years. bit about the subject, is the largest participation sport in the United Kingdom, very popular, and I am sure it is an Once again I am pleased to be able to seek approval area of tourism that we could be able to grow. I thank Mr from this hon. Court for another part of the IRIS master Shimmin for his support for the very slight increase in the plan. On this occasion the works concerned are the construction of the intermediate pumping station at White charges. I agree with his comments that we should not be Hoe. The objective of these IRIS works is to pump sewage going into the trenches, we should be working together flows received from Douglas and Onchan via the and I am sure we will be able to do that in the future. Mrs transmission mains currently being installed along the Old Hannan said there was no guarantee for fish in the Castletown Road to Meary Veg sewage treatment plant reservoirs. I am sure all the fishermen would agree with and subsequently sewage flows from the west and north that. They pay their money and they say, 'I'm absolutely of the Island. The pumping equipment will not be installed convinced there are no fish in here anyway' (Laughter) so under this contract but will form a part of the treatment we are in a no win situation. It is nice to know that Mrs works contract. The works are to be sited on the north side Hannan can agree with some of the things I said but we of the Old Castletown Road between E B Christian's will still have to continue to differ on other ones - premises off the White Hoe Road and the Nunnery grounds. Access to the site will be by way of sharing the exiting Mr Brown: Don't get excited now. private road. Most of the works are below ground and will include sewage storage tanks, wet well and chamber for Mr Downie: - but I am grateful for her - the pumps. The buildings above ground will have the appearance of a traditional cottage and will house control Mrs Hannan: See you in the bunker. room and electrical equipment. A separate building will house the MEA sub-station. The whole area will be Mr Downie: - support and I think at her time when she landscaped and has been designed to blend. in to the rural environment. The total estimated cost is £1,735,500 and was responsible for the department a lot of good work was is based on the lowest tender received from Farrans done as far as the fishery goes. We are now seeing the Construction Limited. Subject to Tynwald approval the benefit of her time there because this year we have had works are programmed- to start in May 2001 and the more migratory fish, more salmonoids, in our rivers this contract has a period of 12 months to run. I would thank back end than we have for many years. I think the stocking hon. members who took the trouble and gave up their time policy that the department has for trout and salmon is to attend our presentation last week and I hope that they paying off and we are one of the few places in the British were able to have any points they raised answered Isles where we have seen this increase in migratory fish, satisfactorily. Mr President, I beg to move the motion where, on the west coast of Scotland and places in the standing in my name. UK, their Atlantic salmon is sadly becoming a thing of the past. Hon. members, I beg to move the motion standing in The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Kniveton. my name. Mr Kniveton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I rise to The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed second the motion. Once more the department is asking at 8 on your order paper. Those in favour please say aye; for another large sum of money as per the details set out against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. on the order paper and described by the minister. I liken the position as the putting together of a jigsaw, certainly an expensive one. It is a matter of picking up another piece Sewerage — IRIS Master Plan — and adding it to those already fitted together. Each time the overall picture becomes clearer and this is how it is Pumping Station — White Hoe — with this next essential piece. I hope that hon. members Expenditure Approved from the north and west of the Island will note the remarks of the minister that this huge pumping station will be an The President: Item 9, I call on the Minister for essential part for their areas. As chairman of the IRIS client Transport, hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown, to I can say with pride that the strategy is progressing and move. gathering speed. The budget approved yesterday makes more funds available and in doing so directs us to get on Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: with the job. Hon. members, we can certainly do so once this hon. Court has approved this motion. We shall of course That Tynwald - come back to you again once we have fitted this particular piece to the others until finally one day no more raw sewage (1) authorises the Department of Transport to is to be dumped into the sea around this Island. (Mr undertake works for the construction of a pumping Houghton: Hear, hear.) That date is getting nearer. That is station at White Hoe for a sum not exceeding the IRIS strategy and I trust that all hon. members will £1,735,500; and continue their support through this motion.

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The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe. that means of course that other measures which have been long explored by me are not essential to this scheme at all. Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to They drop out of the picture and I would love to hear the support this motion and linked to this I would just like to hon. minister's assurances that that is now the way his congratulate the Department of Transport on the excellent department is going to go and that more priority is going traffic management at present at White Hoe and the Old to be given to the environmental aspects as we progress Castletown Road. This is a road I use at least twice a day this plan. As I say my patience with supporting it has been and I marvel at the amount of extensive workings that are stretched to almost breaking point at a couple of points going on on these roads whilst traffic is still moving, albeit and I hope the hon. minister can come back and give us we are slightly inconvenienced, but I think the planning some further reassurances and take on board the issue with of the traffic management morning and evening has been the lights because that can actually be achievable as far as excellent. I can estimate and I think it would be excellent then and prove a point. The President: Mr Henderson. The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Waft. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. In rising to contribute to this debate there are several areas I want to Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to address. First off I did attend the briefing meeting and in support the IRIS scheme and I have done all along since I principle the IRIS scheme is good, it is excellent. Although was in the department 10 years ago. There was a lull in the it is going to cost a lot of money the principle of the scheme proceedings of the IRIS scheme but I am glad that the is good. It is a quality initiative which overall I am happy Council of Ministers have decided to give it more priority with as I have stated on many occasions. Now what we and that has been seen in the recent budgets. I would like were briefed about vis-a-vis this pumping station I am to compliment the department on the way they have happy enough in principle with. It is a good plan and it is proceeded with the IRIS scheme. I would like to make well thought out, well landscaped and there is some tree particular mention to the quality of work that goes on in planting and so on. That is excellent and it is all in keeping the area of producing the Manx stone and the erection of with an ethos with the scheme. I do have some concerns the stone walling on the terrace area and hopefully for the though and I have expressed them before as we have future of the IRIS scheme they will continue to take this progressed this scheme up the Nunnery Road and I have aspect on board. It is so easy to put brick walling up or expressed that my patience was wearing thin with some indeed wire fencing but with that little bit of added cost it aspects of it. One aspect is the environmental issue which is going to be there for many years to come and it is a is taking place with regard to this scheme and that is some delight to see it and I would hope that the minister will tree loss. Although we have agreed to that I think we need take that on board. Thank you, Mr President. to be very careful as we progress the IRIS scheme around the Isle of Man but also is the possible effects of elsewhere The President: Minister to reply. and we need to be very careful. I do not think there is any need to pay too high a price for looking at areas elsewhere Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. If I can thank to accommodate the Nunnery Road. The Nunnery Road is Mr Kniveton from the department, who is also very closely working, as the hon. member for Rushen has just pointed involved with the IRIS, for seconding the motion and out, but I would call on the Transport Minister to please explaining other aspects of it and I appreciate his support check the light timings at the White Hoe et cetera because on this one and if I can thank Mrs Crowe for her kind I too am a frequent user there and have noticed that the words about the traffic management of the Old Castletown timings are out of sync at times and opposing sections of Road. traffic have actually met in the middle at times. I think it would be an excellent idea if traffic lights were one way in Mrs Crowe: Excellent. in the busy time in the morning to help with this project and one way out for an hour in the evening. There would Mr Brown: I would say that the department is very not be any traffic queues there and it would clear nicely conscious of the need especially at peak times on any road because the amount of traffic coming out of Douglas, the to try and do the best we can to endeavour to ensure that other way round, say at 8 a.m. in the morning is minimal traffic flows where the pressure is, in other words when it and could be quite easily cleared at the Quarterbridge. So if we are progressing the pumping station scheme this is is on its way in in the mornings to give that priority and going to add further time onto this I feel and it is something when it is on the way out to give priority there. I would which the Transport Department could look at. I think they also just make the point that the hon. member Mr would have a very novel way of improving the situation, Henderson raised about checking the light timings. I will although it is moving at the minute and I am very pleased certainly ask our people to look at that. I am not aware, to note that it is working maybe five six out of ten I would apart from a problem today, of any hiccup and whether or put it at the times I have used it. I think it has the potential not the one he was talking about was by E B Christian's to go nine or ten out of ten and it just shows you what can where in fact - be done as the hon. member Mrs Crowe said when there is a little bit of thought and commonsense applied and then Mr Henderson: Days ago.

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Mr Brown: Right, so I do not know what that is about improving the quality of life in terms of public health for but certainly I will ask about that. I mean it is fair to say the Isle of Man. As far as doing the work and the point the that there may well be an odd hiccup because of course hon. member of Council Mr Waft said about the walling during the daytime outside the peak times these lights are and different things, again all I can give is a commitment working automatically and of course they are components that whilst I am minister we are trying to set a trend of which can go wrong. So we may have the odd hiccup and quality. When we did Leigh Terrace the option was to do it all I can say is well if it happens we cannot do much about the way we did which was quite substantially more it except as quick as possible repair the problem that we expensive than doing it, if you like, the cheaper way with have. But what I would say is that, in regard to him a brick wall or a concrete wall or whatever. We took the suggesting we have one way in in the morning and one view it is a long-term investment and one thing we all like way out at night, I think there could potentially be problems about the Isle of Man and, while we have got the money to with that because of course it will load Quarterbridge from do it, is in fact to make the environment we live in attractive the other direction and it is surprising how much traffic and therefore investing in natural materials where actually goes south and I think it is fair to say that the appropriate and although it is an extra cost, I believe, and switching manually at peak times has in fact worked very I am supported by my colleagues on the department, it is well, which we found worked very well when we did Leigh an investment worth doing because future generations will Terrace and the amount of waiting time was reduced enjoy our investment. We know we have this major substantially for the traffic. I would say and I would advise disruption. When we have put the pipes down people see members that we did have a bit of a problem today where nothing. All you see is a road that is back. All I can say is one of the contractors did not turn up at the peak time to we will do what we can to ensure that we improve the do the light switching. We have now changed those environment both visually and quality wise for the benefit arrangements. The contractor is not doing it any more and of everybody. I thank hon. members for their support, Mr we will be putting our own people in and they will have to President, and I beg to move. pay for us to man the lights to ensure that we do not have a hiccup from the contractor from his staff not turning up. The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed So again apologies to anybody who was affected by that at 9 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; coming to work this morning. I thank again hon. members against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. for their general comments. I am not really sure what is testing Mr Henderson's patience. He did not really go into any real depth. All I would say is that environmentally - Car Park and Associated Works at and I think our record speaks for it since certainly I have been minister and I think it was started prior to my time - Silverdale Glen, Malew — we take the environmental aspect very seriously but we Expenditure Approved have to acknowledge that man, in this term 'we', cannot sometimes undertake developments without having to The President: We turn then to item 10 and I call on remove parts of our environment whether it be trees or the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to grassland or whatever. What we do have a commitment to move. do though is to plant more and certainly for every tree that is cut down we plant substantially more trees and future Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: generations will enjoy the planting that is now going on as we have enjoyed the planting that went on 30, 40, 80 years That Tynwald approves of the Department of ago. Trees are a living thing and they will move and things Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry incurring expenditure will develop so there is no lack of commitment there. I not exceeding £188,000 on the building of a car park and would thank the hon. member, Mr Waft, of Council and associated works at Silverdale Glen, Malew. again accept his compliments to the department. I would say there is a lot of hard work going on by the senior officers I am sure that hon. members will be aware of the long of the department, specifically my chief executive, Roy history associated with this particular scheme. The Cooil, who is really putting a considerable amount of his department initially obtained planning permission for the time into ensuring we progress as quickly as possible on development of a modest car park in a small area of self- this, and I know the considerable pressure that that is generated woodland immediately adjacent to the Glen. This putting on him and his team. Also of course we had Harvey proved publicly controversial and followed the occupation Garton who is now retired from the department who also of the site by an environmental protester known played a part in the development of the IRIS and just affectionately as 'Woody'. The department considered the acknowledge his role in that. We now have a new man at situation, the matter also being referred to a sub-committee the helm on that and hopefully, as time goes on and he of the Council of Ministers following discussion of the gets more involved, Mr Winstanley will in fact pick up the issue in Tynwald. That sub-committee then reported back reins to proceed as well. This is an issue of great importance to Tynwald on 15th June 1999 and its report and to the Isle of Man. It is a public health issue. It is a long- recommendations were accepted by this hon. Court. These term investment. We have been through all the debates recommendations were essentially that the department with and it is something that I think we will be proud that we the cooperation of the adjoining landowner should played the part of investing substantial resources in negotiate to purchase a piece of agricultural land adjacent

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to the initial site and develop that as a car park on a larger The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. scale, this bearing in mind the sensitivity and ecological importance of the surrounding countryside and the Mrs Hannan: Thank you Eaghtyrane. The minister in requirement not to fell any of the existing mature trees. moving the motion did not say anything about the roads The Malew Parish Commissioners whilst acknowledging and access to this car park. I wonder when he is winding the necessity to provide enhanced parking space at up if he could explain, because the report, I think, that Silverdale had consistently opposed the department's came to this House did have a traffic plan, or a traffic planning applications and did so with respect to the second management, with it and he has not mentioned that. Thank site. The application went through the full planning process you. and eventually an appeal against the decision to permit development of the agricultural land for the purpose of a The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson. car park was dismissed. This was some five months ago. My department then proceeded to seek tenders for the Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, project, with a timescale in mind of having the work in supporting this motion this afternoon, I just would like completed before the TT fortnight. In pursuance of this, to say, as one of the possibly main interested parties in this tenders for the construction work have been received and issue from the outset, this is a very pleasing point to be at approved by Treasury. The successful tenderer quoted today, although it may not be the complete outcome that within the budget estimate and the tender itself is some folk were wanting entirely I think it is an excellent considered to represent good value for money at £188,000. scheme, an excellent plan and an excellent way forward to In the circumstances, and bearing in mind the period of resolve what was a highly contentious issue at the time. At time which has elapsed since the planning approval was the end of the day, a block of woodland has been saved, dismissed, it is sad that the Malew Parish Commissioners added to our national glen and a scheme has been derived and a local resident have felt compelled at this late stage for a car park, which the department has been under to register a petition of doleance against the rejection of extreme pressure to provide, least of all from the legal the planning appeal, especially as this has been done interpretations of the day. This is not going to be just any immediately prior to the project being submitted to this old car park. It is going to be properly programmed into hon. Court for approval of the capital expenditure. It is an arable field which has little conservation value in those particularly sad when the department is committed to terms. So there is going to be very limited, if at all, developing the original site as a nature reserve and environmental consequences to that. It will be landscaped incorporating it into the glen. The department remains convinced that the overall design has been carefully and there will be the various expertise of the department's considered and will ensure that the completed car park wildlife officers used in assuring that it is landscaped in will integrate well into the local environment and properly, planted up with local flora and so on, so that it is surrounding countryside. As I have said, members will be in keeping. As far as possible, it will be landscaped and aware that the project has been long and difficult in the the view of it will be mitigated as far as possible as well, generation and this is the second site my department has Mr President. So I think really we have got almost a win/ obtained planning approval for for the provision of this win situation. car park, for which, it is advised, it has a duty of care to provide bearing in mind the wellbeing of those persons The President: Hon. member for Council, Mr Lowey. using the Silverdale site. Those difficulties have now been continued with the registration of the petition of doleance, Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. Can I just say, which was served on 7th February this year on behalf of contrary to what I think my friend, the last speaker said, Malew Parish Commissioners and a resident of Silverdale. we have got a win/win situation. I do not think there is any The petition effectively seeks to quash the decision of the question that I have a doubt at the department doing a good Minister of the Department of Local Government and the job, if the site is right, but I would remind the Court that Environment made on 4th September 2000 and this matter the planning approval was rejected by the independent is now before the High Court and I understand it was inspector. In fact it was premature. It was because there adjourned until 26th or 27th March. In the circumstances, was no traffic management plan. The minister, in his I would ask the hon. Court to approve the scheme for wisdom, decided that that did not matter, that we would progression in anticipation that, if the Court dismisses the get one before the thing started. Now there is not a traffic petition, the scheme would be able to continue according management plan in place and hence the petition of to the planned timescale. Should the High Court not reject doleance. I am just wondering whether the Court would the petition, then obviously my department would not enter be acting properly, if it took a decision today on the subject, into any construction contract until the legalities of this and what would be the delay, what would be the matter had been satisfactorily resolved. Mr President, I insurmountable delay, if it was referred back or deferred beg to move. until after the Court? I am not sure what the legal position is. The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Downie: I will give it to you, now.

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to Mr Lowey: Well, I am glad the minister has taken that second and reserve my remarks. advice because I am up here as layman thinking what is

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the legal position. I do not know it. But I just wanted the think everybody would like to not have to walk anywhere, Court to be reminded of the essence. It was rejected. The even to be able to drive into the local newsagents, but I am minister has a right but I would remind the hon. Court that afraid you cannot do that. I just wondered why the Treasury it was rejected because there was not a traffic management - I know it is only £188,000 and when you see the amount plan and I still have not seen a traffic management plan, of stuff that is thrown about - whether we are talking about although it was five months ago. Now this is not what I trying to have a strategic long term plan as far as capital would say is joined-up government. If that was the key, I projects are concerned, the likes of this little project, why would have thought that we would have had a traffic it needs to go ahead at the moment when you have got a management plan and then we could have all got on and building boom, you have got IRIS and the water authority done it. Now as far as I am concerned, I am reserving my who are doing things for public health - a small project position until I hear the Minister. like this, does it have to go forward at this time, when we have an overheating in the construction industry at the The President: Hon. member Douglas West, Mr present time? I do feel that we do need to know what is Shimmin. happening concerning the road. Is it being shut? Will it be shut? Will it be one way? I think we need to know that Mr Shimmin: I just wondered in view of the answer to because I think it is not unreasonable. I have to say that it the question given this morning by the Attorney-General, does alarm me when I hear from the member for Council whether the learned Attorney could give us some indication that the minister of another department has turned a blind as to the length of time this petition of doleance will actually eye to the requirements on public safety, especially when take before it gets heard and completed, sir? one of the reasons we were supposed to do this was because of a safety issue. This is the only argument I have for even The President: Mr Attorney, do you wish to respond bothering doing this project, the argument that small kids to that? could get between cars and get run over. That is the only reason why I would even consider this proposal, even if The Attorney-General: Thank you, Mr President. I we were in a situation where we were looking for jobs. I cannot answer specifically in relation to this particular case, mean if it was a work creation scheme, when there was but I can say petitions of doleances are in the nature of high unemployment, you could have argued the point. At applications to the court to right a wrong, which often is the present time, if it is not done and it is not going to be referable to an allegation that a government department or done in conjunction with the DOT, then you have a very minister has exceeded his powers. Typically petitions of valid point in this Court whether we should be deferring doleance are dealt with quickly. The relief which is asked this, to be honest with you in my opinion. I do tend to for by the petitioner has to be brought within six months think that it might even be slightly premature and a bit generally of the act complained of. The petitioner has to arrogant on the part of the Court - get on with his application. Equally the court wants to deal with the matter quickly. What would normally happen is A Member: Shame! that the petition of doleance, having been filed, the department concerned then has an opportunity to file an Mr Karran: It is not shame, it is a matter of the answer to the petition and then it is set down for hearing judiciary. Itis supposed to be independent of the parliament fairly promptly and I would expect, Mr President, that a and believe it or not the executive is supposed to be petition of doleance would be dealt with, from beginning independent of the parliament, even though it does not seem to end, within three months. to be. It seems to be something that goes over some hon. members heads in this hon. House if it gets passed a bus The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. station or a bus stop or something. The thing is, I honestly think that this should not be decided until the court case Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like the minister has been sorted out, in my opinion. I do not see why we to inform this Court in his reply the concerns that the should be going any further on this until we have got the member for Council raised as to how the traffic problems court case cleared out of the way, because I think it is were going to be resolved. I am a little bit concerned that wrong. I think it is equally wrong. . . are we having this you have got to be seen to be more fair when you are here before us today because the 12 percenters in every dealing with government projects than you have to be with government job have done all their design work and there private projects. I have to be honest with you I cannot would be an embarrassment as far as that is concerned? I remember seeing any information on this planned car park think this should be deferred until the court case is over. I recently. I know there was talk some time ago. Is it true think it is not right to be going ahead and saying, 'Well it that with this car park there will be a closing down of the doesn't matter, they don't count.' Much as I sometimes road, or will it mean that the road will become one way? If wonder where they are living and what planet they are on, the minister could also tell this hon. Court, if that is the at the end of the day the judiciary are independent of this case, because I think we need to know. When we have a hon. Court and I think it is wrong for us to approve situation of an overheated capital programme with massive something knowing there is a court case up at the moment. amounts, tens of millions of pounds, hundreds of millions I do not know whether the hon. member for Council did of pounds forecast over the next 10-15 years, the question move for it to be adjourned. If he did then I second it and has to be asked, with the likes of some of these issues I if he has not done, then I think it should be adjourned until

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the court case is over and then let us debate it and then another season and it is getting very, very difficult know hear not just half the story of what one department wants for anyone to run what is down there at Silverdale, which and not the other. I propose that it should be adjourned is an entertainment for children. It is a place that, let us and I do hope it gets some support. face it, we have been going to for years, but people now go in cars. They do not go on the train and walk up and The President: Can I just make it clear, my they do not go on buses and walk up, but they actually understanding was that the hon. member for Council did arrive in cars. I would suggest that if the continuation of not move to adjourn, but I now take it that the hon. member Silverdale is required and wanted as a place of for Onchan is wishing to adjourn this debate until the result entertainment and a place for visitors as well as our own of the petition of doleance is announced. to go, we are going to have to do something about that situation. There has been thrown into the arena that those Mr Karran: Yes, that is what I would like, Eaghtyrane. who have objected, are still objecting but they are objecting because there is another piece of land that they suggest is The President: Hon. member, Chief Minister. a far better piece of land. I know the department have looked at that piece of land. They have been to the planners. Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, I am not rising to The planners totally disagree. They say the piece of land support the adjournment, I am rising to speak to the actual would not be suitable and that they would not in any shape motion and I think it would be perhaps just as well if we or form condone a car park in this area. These are all the did remind ourselves of where we were a little while ago, areas that the department has gone through to try to in fact a few years ago. The hon. member for Onchan has establish somewhere that will facilitate car parking so that said about the dangers, but the dangers were the fact that Silverdale can continue that will be safe. It is fair to say the emergency vehicles would not have been able to get that in the report, it said about traffic management. That down to Silverdale if there was a child in the roundabout, was raised by one of the people who gave us evidence in or in the water wheel or in the pond. The dangers were respect of Silverdale and it was stated that would indeed being highlighted to the Department of Agriculture by the be addressed. I would be mortified if in fact it was not insurers and so on, that they were leaving themselves liable addressed because it was there in the report, that was what here to a situation, that once it is brought to your notice Tynwald Court accepted. I firmly believe that is going to that there is a danger and you have been alerted to it, I happen. The hon. member is saying, 'Is it going to be one would suggest, that you must do something about it. I think way?' Well, until the traffic management, the the situation is quite clear. At the moment traffic can go commissioners and everybody else has had an input, I down, right into Silverdale. They can block up the turning would say again that would be premature for us to make space, but coaches have telephones at the end of the road any decision on that particular area, because it is being and they have telephones down at the bottom and one does operated at the moment with two way traffic and here there not come down unless the other goes back up and so on. is going to be a car park which is going to stop the traffic So traffic is moving in that very narrow lane at this time or going down into Silverdale. They are going to come down it will have by come Easter and it was last summer. The about 200 yards and park in the park. People will walk situation is that cars can park all the way up that little down through the actual tree area into Silverdale which narrow lane, which causes the problem. Now we must also will make it a much safer place. So, I am sorry that people remember that, although there was someone sitting in a think it is premature. It is probably about 5 or 6 years too tree, there was planning permission actually granted in the late. However, I think we have got to think about the portion of the land nearer to Silverdale and there were no situation with regard to Silverdale, that it is to be operated other conditions applied. It was just a car park. No other continually as it is. That was another question that was conditions. In other words, the traffic would have had to raised. It will be another Tynwald Mills. Well I think again, find its own situation and we could have ended up with no the hon. mover will assure the Court that that is not the parking on the road or whatever. The situation we have case. It is very much the other way around, that the linkage today is that a better position has been found which does between Rushen Abbey and Silverdale and the walks up not entail any tree cutting or any brush cutting. It is further in that area will be enhanced for people to enjoy it as it is up the road. Great lengths actually were taken to try and and not as a shopping precinct. I would hope that the hon. facilitate everybody, even to the moving, which I am sure Court would not delay the decision today. Let us get the the mover of the motion will tell you, of the actual entrance decision today, subject then, as the mover has said, to the away from anybody else's private entrances so that it would outcome of whether or not the minister acted correctly or actually make it much better for those living there because otherwise. I am sure that we will find that in fact that then they would not have cars parked all outside their decision was made in the normal way but we will have to houses and making it difficult for them to get access. I wait the outcome of that particular decision, sir. think the mover, in moving the motion, made it quite clear that pending the court case, and the court case, let us face The President: Minister to reply. it, is the questioning of a decision made on the fact of traffic movement, not on the actual piece of land but on Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I would first of traffic movement. The mover has said that they do not all like to thank the constituency member, the hon. Chief intend to move forward until that has been cleared up but Minister, for his input into the debate. He has been the I would again emphasise that we have lost one season after man who has had to take the brunt of Silverdale over the

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years. He knows the area intimately and I am very grateful legally I represent the department and as far as I am for the amount of trouble that he has gone to personally to concerned we are doing our level best to improve the try to resolve this matter. I think we have got to the situation facilities. We do not want to destroy the area. The thing is where there are certain personalities involved in this who being done in a proper manner. Mr President, I beg to move. will not be happy. I think that both the department and the hon. member and other people involved have tried their The President: Hon members the motion before us is level best to come up with a satisfactory solution and I am printed at 10 on the order paper. Those in favour please grateful for his support. I would just reiterate, we are not say aye; against no. The ayes have it looking for another Tynwald Mills here. Those of you who know Silverdale and know it well at busy times, the A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: problems come when the vehicles park along the roadway. There is nowhere else for them to go and the car park will In the Keys - effectively remove the vehicles from the car park. One of the reasons why we are not presenting you with a traffic For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Mrs Crowe, management scheme today is I am not asking you to fund Messrs Rimington, Brown, Houghton, Henderson, a traffic management scheme. That is a matter for the Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Shimmin, Downie, Department of Transport who are the lawful authority to Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, Bell, Corkin, Cannell, deal with that. As far as I am concerned the management Gelling and the Speaker - 20 of the traffic on that road is the responsibility of the minister and I have been advised by the minister that he will shortly Against: Mr Karran - 1 have in front of him various orders to do with traffic management in the Silverdale area and they will be brought The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the about following consultation with all the interested parties. House of Keys, 20 votes in favour and 1 vote against. I am going to move to Mr Lowey next on the points he raised on the petition of doleance and in fact the move that In the Council - the hon. member for Onchan made for procrastination, in For: The Lord Bishop, Mr Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs fact to do nothing. It is very easy to do that, but this court Kniveton, Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney and case could take some months. In the interim I have got a Crowe - 8 situation on my hands where, as far as I am concerned, we have stuck to the letter of the law, we have gone all through Against: Mr Lowey - 1 the planning procedure, we have planning approval, we have gone out to tender, tenders have successfully been The President: Eight for and 1 against in the Council, accepted by Treasury. So I am in a position now, where I the motion therefore carries, hon. members. am ready to press the button to start the scheme. If this slips for a matter of months, I may well be in a position where I do not have a Tynwald Court to come back to and say I want to move the Silverdale car park. We are not far Department of Education — Revenue off now and as the A-G said, six months this could take. I Accounts 2000-01— Special Needs — would like to be in the situation where I have the backing International Business School and approval of Tynwald, but I consider when I do make a — Debate Commenced promise in this Court that I do stick to my promise and I am prepared to give you an undertaking now that this car The President: We turn now to item 11 on the order park will not progress until the matter concerning the paper and I call on the Minister for Education, the hon. petition of doleance has been resolved and resolved member for Garff, to move. properly. If the department loses out, the scheme does not proceed. Quite simple. Everybody should know that before Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: they vote today. We will not be attempting to do any work down there until the matter has been resolved. It is as simple That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to apply from as that. Mrs Hannan raised the subject of the traffic and I general revenue during the year ending 31st March 2001, hope I have dealt with that. It is a DOT matter and I am a sum not exceeding £834,000, being the additional amount absolutely convinced that when the vehicles are off the required by the Department of Education in respect of - road, the traffic will improve. The problem with the traffic will disappear. Mr Shimmin posed a question to the (a) additional special needs teaching and support Attorney-General and I am grateful for the Attorney's staff advice. He did say that we could be in this situation for a period of up to six months. Mr Henderson spoke in support (b) the refurbishment of the ground floor of The of the scheme. As far as I am concerned, this department, Nunnery mansion house for the International DAFF, has a duty of care to provide proper facilities in the Business School. Silverdale area. If, when Easter comes along and there are a lot of people down there, we have a fire or a severe By this motion for supplementary funding today, the accident, it will be me you are wanting to pillory because department is seeking Tynwald authority to Treasury to

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apply from general revenue during the current financial alteration and certainly not alteration at the cost to the year ending 31st March 2001, a sum not exceeding leaseholder not to the owner. The building is removed from £834,000 to meet the half year special needs staff costs central business activity, the access is appalling, in fact I and the partial costs of refurbishment needed to bring The do not know if it has been repaired since I was there, but I Nunnery mansion house into use as an international actually broke the rear axle of my vehicle driving to the business school. As far as the special needs staffing is business school. It may well be that the drive has been concerned, while the substantial growth in special needs relaid but I am not sure that that is so. There is little or no of recent years, as described in the explanatory car parking at this school and in fact I would doubt the memorandum, has been accommodated out of approved way that the cars were littered along the drive, if emergency personnel allocations, during the course of last year it vehicles could actually access the school if required. I became very clear that some urgent action was needed to would also like to question the disabled access within the relieve pressure on existing special needs staff, in order to school. I mean this is a government building where we all meet the still growing demand for this service within our the time are looking to encourage... and hightech business schools. At the beginning of the autumn term, therefore, people these days, there are many of them that are disabled the department approved the temporary appointment, on a and make very valuable contributions to our business fixed term basis, of 30.15 full time equivalent teaching centres. Yes, the business school has magnificent disabled and class room assistant posts to support pupils who are in lavatory facilities, truly magnificent, but in order to get to special units and also in main stream school situations. It them one has to ask for a ramp to be laid down the main was estimated that the cost of salary and wages for this corridor. It would actually be awful if one was using them staff from the 1st September 2000 to 31st March this year and the ramp was taken away. Presumably that is why they would be just over £300,000. In respect of the International are so large, you could actually live in them. They are an Business School, a condition survey on the proposed use excellent facility. When I was there - now it may well have of the building prior to its opening identified that, in order changed - the refectory facilities were down what is almost for the school to become operational, the ground floor of a spiral staircase, suitable, yes, for the most nimble amongst the Mansion House required refurbishing at a projected us, but certainly not suitable for anyone that was disabled. budget cost then of £556,000. Although this cost was I am sure the minister may be able to assure me that these known early last year, it was too late to seek to have the things have been changed but I do not think you could amount added to the department's budget to be presented change the classrooms themselves. Beautiful rooms, rooms in Tynwald in February of last year due to the timing suitable for a Mansion House, but I question whether they requirements of the budget process. Treasury did agree to are suitable for classrooms.' found that the soundproofing the department proceeding with the refurbishment on the was ineffective and I am sure it would be very difficult to basis that supplementary funding would be considered later soundproof such large rooms. Certainly there are some in the financial year when more up to date costs would be advantages. I am not sure whether the young business available and the department's probable expenditure for whizz kids will appreciate these advantages but, of course, the year would become established. The revised scheme one of the classrooms has access to a beautiful Victorian cost of both the refurbishment of the ground floor and the shell grotto. I am not sure whether they will appreciate works to the kitchen area is £534,000. It is in respect of that but it was certainly a beautiful room the last time I that figure and the figure mentioned for special needs staff was in it. Mr President, £556,000 would have paid for two that I would seek Tynwald approval this afternoon and I year's lease on a city centre facility that I really feel would beg to move, sir. be more suitable as a location for what I am sure will be our prestigious Isle of Man Business School and I would The President: Hon. member, Mr Henderson. like to ask the minister, who is also a director of the Isle of Man Business School, do you envisage any further Mr Henderson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my government funding for this building, either internally or remarks. externally, before the business school has run any courses at all? Also I would like to ask the minister, or the The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe. Department of Education, or the directors of the business school, I am not sure who would make the decision, are Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I have no you looking for a more suitable building for the future, or problem at all and I am fully supportive of part (a) of the is this to be the permanent home of the Isle of Man Business motion but I would like to ask in regard to part (b), which School? Thank you, Mr President. I feel personally should have been a separate motion, why does the Department of Education enter into a lease for a The President: Hon. member for Council, Mr Waft. building for a business school that, even with £556,000 spent on it, is in my opinion unsuitable for such a school. Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to An international business school, one would assume, would pick up on the first one particularly the special needs have been housed in a high-tech building, in step with staffing. I am considerably concerned about the numbers future thinking, a centrally located building that would of children with special educational needs, how they have appeal to the whizz kids of our future business centres, risen from 1,467 in 1998 to 1,957 currently and another, not a building suitable as a backdrop for a Noel Coward identified as greater than stage three equivalent to the play. This building is more suitable for preservation rather criteria for statementing in the UK, has risen from 179 to

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313, a 75% increase in the same period. The number of Division within education for most of my professional life pupils with severe and profound difficulties educated in in the Isle of Man. I do therefore congratulate the special units attached to schools, stages four and five, have department on being up front with these figures. It does risen from 62 to 119, 92% et cetera, et cetera. I would just indicate, not just the decline in behaviour which is certainly like to congratulate the department for picking up, evident, but also an identification of people with needs obviously, the children who do need attention and the and hopefully this will attempt to try and resolve some of teachers are obviously more aware of the problems those needs. It is a major concern. The issue of special nowadays than they used to be in years gone by. I would needs pupils is a bit like the health service, you can never congratulate them on that. I would like the Minister to have enough, you can always be wanting for more facilities explain the situation with devolved financial management. in. My concern is with the delivery of the service that is When the special needs staffing have been allocated to there and I will continue to take that up with the minister schools, what degree of latitude is there for the headmaster and the department. On the second issue, it is a difficulty. of those schools to decide either that he needs an increase I am strongly in favour of the idea of the Isle of Man being or perhaps change the criteria for special needs staffing to represented in this sort of area. I think most people have a perhaps another area of staffing, whether they are French general warmth for to idea that it is appropriate that an teachers, or maths teachers or whatever their particular Island with these financial services should have this type leanings are and whether the criteria for special needs of facility. I believe that the Nunnery building could be staffing comes from the department itself, or the actual made to work. Unlike the speaker for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, headmaster in the school. On the second item, I note with I think the setting does actually enhance certain aspects of concern also with regard to the last speaker, the sum of the tuition that could be taking place. The setting is very £534,000 is an extreme amount of money. I just wonder beneficial to an air of professionalism and study. I would what the leasing situation is with regard to the future of be grateful to find out from the minister whether we have that establishment and whether we should be investing in got any students to take advantage of this facility and that this knowing when the lease is up - in fact I do not know is a concern that I know is shared by the minister. If this when the lease is up, but perhaps the minister might have had got off the ground, as intended, a year ago, I think the more information than me as to the balance that is required circumstances might be slightly different because, through to make a decision on this matter. circumstances, we effectively lost the first year of students. We now see the approaching end to the lease coming The President: Hon. member for Council, Mr Kniveton. forward without having begun to see the benefits of the business school in operation. Many of us would welcome Mr Kniveton: Yes, thank you Mr President. Mr Waft, the minister trying to just explain the structure of how these to some extent has pipped me on this one, when he started decisions were taken that we could enter into such a lease talking about the lease but I do follow on from Mrs Crowe, with so many questions still unanswered and so little meat the hon. member for Rushen, who exclaimed about the on the bone. I believe it could be successful but it will budget costs for refurbishment. I have heard it said on a only be successful if this Court rallies behind the number of occasions that the property has been offered to department. There is going to be a difficulty that we would the department. I would like the minister to either agree or then be expected to expend further levels of money deny that such is the case because if it is not, and if we are potentially into an unproven operation. There is a risk. It renting or leasing the property, as the hon. member for then, I believe, comes down to the members' views as to Council my colleague, Mr Waft, said, please advise us of whether they believe that we should have a facility like what the terms of the lease of are, the rental, the length of this on the Isle of Man and if we do believe that, then I the lease and so on, because to spend all this money, over think we are obliged to give the department a certain level half a million pounds on a short term lease or whatever, to of support and keep tugging at the chain to make sure they me does not make too much sense. Thank you, Mr get it on the right course, sir. President. The President: Mr Speaker. The President: Hon. member Douglas West, Mr Shimmin. The Speaker: Mr President, speaking to the second part of the motion. I strongly believe, and I am of the opinion Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Speaking to that a business school, an international business school, is the first part to begin with, I would congratulate the complementary to our successful financial centre. department on identifying this large increase in the figures. (Members: Hear, hear.) Our financial services industry is My concern some years ago when we began to identify something that we can be proud of. It needs to be staffed and put in place the series of evaluations and assessments by professional people. We need to be able to train them of young people, was as the budgets and the staffing here, in our Island. To have the school here is became difficult that we would merely just re-jig the complementary to the financial services of which only evaluation process and assessments. That has not been done yesterday we see how much the whole island benefits. I think the department has been bold in actually identifying There is criticism that perhaps it is not in the right place. the level of young people who now are benefiting from That is misguided, in my opinion, because to have an special needs provision. And that comes from somebody international business school, as the minister will probably who has been one of the fiercest critics of the special needs tell you, you need accreditation from some of the great

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universities in the United Kingdom. The accreditation is The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. needed and these great universities have been over and seen and, in my hearing, have said that if it was just to be Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I am quite an office block in Athol Street, or elsewhere in town, they astounded by the last speaker's input into this. I cannot would not consider it. They are (interjection.) Do you mind agree that if something is not in a prestigious setting, then if I continue speaking, I did not interrupt you madam. (A it has no value. The value is in the work that goes on in a Member: Hear, hear.) These professors from these place and I am not convinced that the second part of this universities have told meetings that they need, as the hon. motion is good value for money, when there are other member for West Douglas said, a prestigious building in a schools and other places of learning that need this sort of prestigious setting. They are used to those sort of places investment. I am concerned about that, but I do welcome and those universities which you visit are there. I believe the increased special needs staffing because I do know that that if the Isle of Man is serious about having an there is a lot of concern by young families with children international business school, this Court must rally round with, not necessarily disorders, but learning difficulties that the Department of Education and support it, support it with a little bit more help can get them over this and can wholeheartedly. A director of the business school has been get them into the learning areas. Not only just the appointed. He has appointed tutors. They have classes Department of Education, the Department of Health comes down there at the present time. They cannot in one hand into this as well. We are trying to improve the quality of move in, as they did take the lease in December 1999, and life for some of these children with these difficulties. suddenly expect courses within six months. Nobody can However, the main reason I got to my feet was that I was establish a school, have courses, tutors, everything so taken aback by the member for Council, Mr Waft, who appointed and a renovated building. However, as the spoke about headmasters. There are a lot of women out minister will tell you, there is a lease and if the lease time there who head up schools and I think that the Court should is up, I am sure the owner will just use the building for remember that. (Laughter) something else, but it will not benefit an international business school. Sponsorship has been given to the The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. International Business School which I believe would not be given if they did not know it was in such prestigious Mr Cannell: Yes, thank you, Mr President. It looks as premises and had such a prestigious backer. So, again, I if it is going to be a runner this debate. It is amazing the refer to the member for West Douglas. Yes, you must keep way they come virtually from. . . you look at the agenda an eye on it, but I believe that the Department of Education and say we will knock that 6ff all right but those who have has got it right, that it is backed on the board of directors been around a while always look for the items such as this by very senior business people in the community, in the which delays. But I think it is very worthwhile that there finance sector. It has representatives on the board of is debate on this. I have got great reservations about the governors from the finance sector and, yes, I do not believe International Business School, so far, because I do not think ever in renting property, because property appreciates and we are doing it properly. We are not going into it properly rent is dead money, and that if you purchase it and pay the and half a million pounds here, which is on the resolution, mortgage or the loan charge, your capital is continually which must be the matter that is addressed, is only messing appreciating. Furthermore for years we have wanted, I about with it. If we are going to have an international believe, to have the Nunnery in public ownership. Well, I business school, let us have one, but we will not do it for hope that there is an opportunity for the Nunnery to be half a million quid and a three year lease that is nearly up taken into public ownership. It does not have to be now and we put a few bits of board in and a couple of purchased by the Government. The company that own the computers and a telephone link and call it an international business school, or which the business school is controlled business school, any more than you send hon. members by, are quite capable of purchasing it, provided that the along there and waste a day and I have heard nothing, Treasury will underwrite the mortgage payments. The absolutely since, as to what the progress of what we were company is like all companies, Manx Radio, or any other, alleged to have been taught that day was on the MAGIC where £2 shares are owned by government representatives. school, because when I tried to log in and do it the other But if there is no heart for a business school, I believe that day, I was told, you have never been near the Nunnery, you have not got a pin number and you are out. You are would be so detrimental out there to the international the weakest link, goodbye! (Laughter) I have been around financial services industry that we have, that they would the Nunnery all my life, since Fry Goldie Taubmann was wonder what on earth we are doing in this place, one the occupier and do not tell me about the Manx moment saying we want the financial services, it employs Government owning it, because they did and they sold it 6,000, 7,000 people by reckoning, and on the other hand for £20,000. (Interjections) £50,000 whatever, the we are not willing to support their education nor progress Government had it like they had the Grand Island at one of their staff that they take on. - Manx, local staff - to get time. So the Nunnery is a place of great prestige and I do them qualified through the system. Hon. members, I can not agree that it is unsuitable for the purpose. I cannot think of nothing better to, complement the international think of anything more suitable for the purpose. (A image of our own financial services industry than to have Member: Hear, hear.) But in the reasonable range and associated and complementary to it, an international without the usual claims that Jurby, of course, would be business school. ten times better. (Laughter) The Nunnery, with its grounds,

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with good will for parking, because this nonsense about on the back of the finance sector, directly related to it but the drive being rough and everything - Okay yes it is and not totally in league with it as you would do if you were there is not any parking, but there is certainly plenty of building yet another concrete jungle palace in Athol Street room to do it, with a bit of good will, without the usual or Circular Road, as they are at the moment. This is the Manx nonsense, you cannot put a car park in because it is place for it. But we have got to actually enhance it. Now against planning permission. But you have a very, very an awful lot of work will need doing. You cannot just take good building with a great history and if I came along from the Sangsters out one minute and move in to the next thing, a foreign country and saw something like that, and believed all computerised and plugged up. The whole place would that it had a mediaeval history, I am sure it would add to need completely refurbishing if it is going to be done and the prestige of my learning. But if we are going to do it, let naturally the department will not want to do that until they us get in there and do it, and do it properly because a are certain that (a) it is going to go ahead and (b) that they Mickey Mouse business school will not do. It will be have got the building. I do not also believe that there is money down the drain completely. The subject of the lease going to be vast amounts of other uses for it. I have seen is what worries me. I am not in on all these private things your golf and country clubs and your hotels and everything, like all the rest of you old boys are. I just go along and do but they do not come to anything. Beautiful drawings. It my own work, but I hear that it is a long way from certain could have possibility. My cousin, who is now dead, was that the tenure of this can continue. I hear it about other actually the groundsman there and he showed me around. places as well. People try to wind me up and occasionally We had permission to do it and I looked at the whole lot they succeed, like this morning. (Laughter) But if we are and it is an incredible place, including the chapel. The going to do it, then we need possession of it on a 99 year chapel is nearly worth the money alone and there is a lease, or we buy it. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) You cannot swimming pool. Alright it looks a bit tatty, but it is capable set up something with a lease that is going to go along and of being refurbished like everything else is. So we are going run out in a couple of years time. I am worried about what to do it or we are not going to do it. Whatever, let us not has happened so far because when you go along and come fall between, spend half a million notes today and find out through the doors, at an interval of six months since you in 18 months time, or whatever, the lease runs out and we were there previously, nothing has changed. It is a void. In are left with absolutely nothing because you will end up fact there was no-one on reception the last time I went and then with a load of people who might have been interested I stood in the middle as if my young lady had departed in coming. We here about the universities coming over from the Royal Hall dance floor. No-one came to see what here and setting up a faculty. I have talked to the new I wanted and I could have just walked through and taken director there as well and he was reasonably enthusiastic all the computers out, I am convinced of it. But it is not that that could be done. But there are so many rivals. There going to happen that way. It has got to be done properly. I are international business schools, there must be about three am also less than convinced when I get correspondence on Merseyside and then when you get into Cheshire and from the International Business School which is addressed the Wirral and places like that, they are not 10 a penny but to me as Mr Geoffrey T Cannell Esq. MHK. I mean if we there are certainly plenty of them. So we have got to have are going to teach people proper business practice, let us something extra. Now I do not understand the ramifications get it right from the outset. Now we also have the Isle of of how you work income tax and how you work tax free Man College, on which vast amounts have been levied holidays and things like that, but I do know there are plenty over the years and have produced the goods. So the of people who do have that expertise and I am sure that, expertise is there and the know-how is there and we have with great resolve, it could be that it would be so much what I think is a private venture in the South in Port Erin, more attractive to come here than it will be to go to the an International Language School, do we not? It is still other business schools because we can make it so. We can going is not it? So we do know what to do. We know how shut our roads for motorcycle racing. We can do virtually to go about it but we are scratching at the surface here and anything and we have got the differences that make the I am not knocking it, Mr Minister, I am saying, that I would difference, the famous advertisement that ran for the Tourist like it to be done properly, but I have never heard of half Board. We can do it if we want to. I do not think we really of the people who are associated with it and if we have got want to, doing it this way. We are scratching at it and in anything of advantage here, it is expertise locally. Maybe the end, in a couple of years time, I am afraid to say, unless it is not international, but they have certainly got the something major is put into it as an injection and a will of knowhow to set up a college and get it going and I know this Government, I am afraid we will just say it will have of one prominent person who I advanced as a possible all faded away and there will be some old computers left person to be involved, who would have willing given of out there that will probably end up in a skip. the time to help out for nothing and was just not availed of whatever. So if we are going to do this - and I suppose The President: Hon. member for Council, Dr Mann. really I feel sorry in a way for the minister because he has been caught here with a little, comparatively small, Dr Mann: Thank you, Mr President. I must say that I resolution which has whipped it all up - it does no harm to am appalled by what I have heard in the last half an hour. have a bit of bloodletting occasionally and this is a very We are talking about money that has been expended rather important subject, because if we are going to have, as we than money that is about to be expended to start with and had yesterday, a budget and massive amounts going into much as I applaud the money that has been spent on special reserves, this is just the kind of diversification that we need needs - and I have been very much in favour of expanding

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that service, ever since I have been in the department - I Years ago, when a country became independent, the first will just concentrate my comments on the second part. I thing it had to do was train its own lawyers and train its have rarely heard so much prejudice and ill-informed own clergy. I think in this day and age we have first of all comment as I have heard this afternoon. First of all, we to look to our economic wellbeing first and progressing have spent something like two or more years anticipating with this school will look after our economic wellbeing. the formation of this business school with professors from Now there are going to be problems and there will be Liverpool University and it is the relationship - since we problems about securing a longer lease, or purchase. It are talking about things that have happened, because this may be that ultimately the Nunnery may not be the final expenditure has happened. We will talk about what home but I think it is prestigious, in spite of what has been happened. For two years we were talking with the private said by the first speaker. It certainly is seen by every visiting sector here and with Liverpool University on the viability academic that has come here as being the most desirable and desirability of introducing this business school into location they could imagine. They are bitterly jealous, the Isle of Man. It was, over a period of time, talked through many of them, that we have actually secured it, even for absolutely, in almost every detail and eventually it was the short term. I am sure that there are bigger minds around realised both by ourselves and by Liverpool University than some of the speakers here this afternoon and I, most that we had a possibly successful operation. We were then of all, was hurt by the fact that the disabled cannot enter informed by the Treasury that we would be supported for that building. I know whether the disabled can enter that a period of three years, to see how this school got off the building. We have not had one single complaint. Every ground. Now if you have ever tried in the private sector to part of that building, we have sought professional advice go out into the wide world and lease a building for three from the organisations and I can assure you that it is years when you only have support, financial support, for accessible correctly for disabled people. The fact that some three years, I can tell you it is incredibly difficult and we ramps are movable is because a very large amount of the were very lucky indeed. I know many people may make £500,000 that we are voting here is removable (A Member: cynical comments but we were very lucky indeed to secure Hear, hear.) so that if we were placed in the unfortunate this building for that length of time, because Liverpool position of not being able to continue to occupy that University saw what we were doing and how far we were building, we would not have to disconnect it. If you looked prepared to go that in the end a new administration in at the lighting, all the lighting can be pulled away. It is self Liverpool University actually saw us a potential threat to standing. It can be moved to another building. The facts a business school within their own jurisdiction. have been disguised. All I can say is I wish you were as Unfortunately then they withdrew their actual direct vehement in your support of the disabled when you think support. This initiated the delay. These are facts that can about access to this building, to this chamber.. . be substantiated easily. The fact that we were placed in that position, as far as I was concerned, confirmed the fact Mrs Crowe: I am. that we were on the right course. In fact, with the staff that we have employed, I am sure we were on the right course. Dr Mann: As you are to the business school. We do The delay unfortunately has caused a certain amount of have problems. We have had problems, but I can assure academic vacuum while we were seeking other accredited you that there are all kinds of possible ways forward. The universities. Those have been secured, at least four of them. important thing is, there is a way forward and there is going So we now have a complete portfolio of future courses to be a way forward and, at this moment, we are appointing which will all be starting in September. I am not surprised the necessary academic staff to carry it forward. I am sure that one hon. member appeared and found nobody. We you ultimately will be very proud of the International have been very lean indeed in employing anybody at all Business School and then suddenly you will think it is all during the period during which we are waiting. We are in a great idea. the process now of appointing the academic staff to be available for the courses starting in September. As far as The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. the financial future, a very high proportion of all of the potential graduates that leave the Isle of Man to seek higher Mr Karran: I must say that I congratulate the member education are in the overall title of business studies. A large for Rushen for standing up. It was a breath of fresh air and proportion of those would be very much happier to have the situation this morning with the other member about their courses here in the Isle of Man than they would do to Hamilton House. I think it is a breath of fresh air to see go away. If just half of those decide to have their courses that it is not left to the same members to have to take the here, rather than go away, we have a financial benefit to same amount of abuse and I must applaud the member for this Government that is enormous. It will far outweigh any standing up. If it is so ideal and it is so wonderful, why has costs of the business school itself. So I have no doubt at not Liverpool University - where is Liverpool University? all of its financial benefit and its financial stability. As far The people who are supposed to accredit the degrees. The as the national pride and interest of the Isle of Man, any fact is that I disagree with the member for Council, the jurisdiction, any country, that claims to have any former Minister of Education. I am appalled, I am appalled independence at all eventually has to have a higher that this is one big scam, in my opinion. What we are talking education institution. It is a matter of national pride. It is a about here today is a property that is worth about two and matter of independence. It is a means by which we, as a half million pounds as a manor house. It is worth may be country, as a nation, educate our own experts in this field. five million pounds as a hotel, and it is worth maybe 25 to

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30 million pounds as an office development, if not more puns on the radio as far as the farmers are concerned, we and that is the bottom line as far as this whole affair is actually get some answers even if they are embarrassing concerned. It is a record of a weak minister in the first and we will see who are the ones that should be place and also - embarrassed and who should be ashamed. I do hope we do get a clear undertaking as far as this issue is concerned, Members: Shame, shame! because if anything it should be going to the Public Accounts Committee, in my opinion. All the verbal abuse Mr Karran: - a minister that has not had the bravery and all the insults to me will not take away the fact that that has taken over the role to not allow a situation where most people outside know what this is about and it is about vanity is more important than sanity. This Court can 'Ooh' manor house, two and half million, office accommodation, and `Aah' all it likes. My colleague here has said, 'Well I 30 million. The fact of the matter is that we have not read didn't think this was an issue.' Well, I knew it was an issue the small print and we have been bullied maybe by certain when I read through the agenda paper for today. We are in people who are in the department to do it. We have only an impossible position because obviously the money has got to look at the way we had the renovation of the gone and we have got no choice in the matter. It has been Department of Education's schools, when my constituency expended and to say that somehow. . . we might not be played the Queensbury rules and we took our time and the disabled, to the hon. member for Council, but take away whole capital projects were all changed and you, as the ramps have to have other places of the same dimensions. Chief Minister, condoned this sort of activity and we are Removable ramps, it is an awful lot of money here today supposed to be the less than desirable members in this hon. as for this issue is concerned. I have heard a lot in this Court. I think some members need to get some principles debate about what we are talking about here today. We in this hon. Court. I do hope that this Court makes sure have had the member here on about the institute in the that they get the sort of answers to what I am saying, south of the Island. What we really know is that institute because we know what this is and this is just a sham and is another sham. It is a vehicle for passports and that is do not, Eaghtyrane, allow the situation of people saying about all it is, like this is a sham. I am used to the abuse. that we are against the business school or we are against People outside know that the one thing they respect is a the university. We were fighting to try and get things going bit of honesty and I believe that this Court should vote many years ago, to try and get national identity. We would away the second part of this amendment, in order to get love to see a university. (A Member: Hear, hear.) What I the full truth of what is going on here, because all we hear do not want to see is a situation where once again the lucky is mutters, mutters, mutters, kicks under the table, we few make piles and the rest of the people have piles because cannot do anything because we are part of this collective they cannot get off their seats because they cannot afford responsibility and the taxpayer can be raped on this and to go to university in the adjacent isle because of their many other things, simply because we have to put the family commitments. I do hope that the Minister for placebo up that vanity is more important than sanity. I Education comes back and gives details. If not, this should would just like to ask the Minister for Education, when he be going to the Public Accounts Committee and we should replies, let us hear the details of the lease agreement. Let have this proposal voted on as two parts. us hear the options for buying the property. Let us hear the manipulation behind: we can have the place if we throw a The President: Whilst I accept the point which the hon. bit of planning permission into the equation on the site. member for Onchan is making, the call for division should We know what is going on and people outside know what have been made immediately after seconding the motion. is going on and they are sick of people in this House I call upon the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. sticking together like.mud to a blanket over issues that are an absolute public disgrace. I hope that the minister comes Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I certainly support back and tells us what our lease arrangement is, what our the need for the school and I must say that when I went to option of buying on this property is, where is Liverpool the school, I was very impressed by the school and I think University? If it is such a prestige building, where are they? that anybody visiting the school would be impressed at its Gone, gone, that is where they are. They are nowhere to location and that can only add to its attraction. I do think be seen at the present time and let us see the colour of that perhaps we are putting too much emphasis, from what their money, Minister for Education. There is a conspiracy I have heard today, on the spending of this £560,000 I think of silence over this whole affair because at the end of the that was the figure. I think that whilst it is retrospective, I day, there is an awful lot of red faces. A lot of people have certainly welcome the contribution by the hon. member been taken for a ride and I think that the taxpayers out for Council, Dr Mann, in explaining that the £560,000 is there.. . this idea that yesterday we have got all this money not going to be left there in that school, if we cannot agree and we are full of self praise and how we are doing well a lease and we have to move elsewhere. So that money is and how the economy is doing well and we are throwing it not going down the drain as such. Certainly not, as we away, as if it is going out of fashion, when it suits and it heard this morning, the £180,000 a year that this saddens, it is very sad. I must say that I have no problems government has spent on Hamilton House since 1997. as far as special needs teaching and I have full support as Whatever it is, it is probably half a million pounds is not far as that is concerned and I do hope, Eaghtyrane, you it? We cannot compare the two. Certainly I do not think will split the motion into two parts in order that we can that we can ever justify spending public money, if we are show where we feel. I do hope, just for a change instead of not going to get anything out of it and only going to,

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perhaps, upgrade the building for the person who owns it. position of we are being coerced into spending £35 million But I do not think this is the case and I tend therefore, to buying the Nunnery to all sorts of situations which I when considering this second part of this resolution, to just cannot believe. The fact is the department reserved its give the benefit of the doubt, for the good of the school position in this case and it was ably summed up by the because I believe that we do need this school. I believe hon. member of Council, Dr Mann, who is not here at this school will add to the reputation of this Island. I hope present, who gave I think quite a reasonable account of that we will attract the people to it, but certainly when we fixtures and fittings and so on and what we are trying to get the raves that we heard from the previous speaker and do. The point is if you do not have a go you will not know if that is outside interpreted as being the feeling of this whether it is going to work and what is the point in having Court, then I think that we are certainly going to be on a an idea if you are not going to back it and literally try and down slope. I hope that people will take that outburst for make it work. If it is going to be a half hearted attempt, what it is, absolute rubbish. So I hope that we can guarantee yes, it will fail. There is no question of that. But I am not the future of this business school and I certainly think that sure where the hon. member for Onchan was coming from. we should be pressing to obtain this building, the present One minute he is supportive, next minute he is not building, although of course it depends on the landlord supportive, we are into empire building. Shams and scams and whether he is the sort of landlord who would and all sorts of allegations have been levelled around this accommodate us at a reasonable price. I do not know that hon. place. I would like to see him do it outside. That would and I do know how far we have got with negotiations, but be interesting. I am also upset at the innuendo. 'The rape certainly I will have it on balance. Having heard the of the taxpayer' was another good one and it is interesting explanation, I will be supporting this resolution. to see Mr Karran, the hon. member for Onchan's, outburst in this relation because this morning when he was under The President: Hon. members, I am aware of the clock the spot lamp he was wriggling like an eel in a bucket and there are one or two members still indicating that they (Laughter) and he did not like it at all. Somebody in here may wish to speak. I think it is an appropriate time in which touched a bit of a nerve and it was a waste of Court's time, to adjourn. We will adjourn until 15 minutes past five by it was horrendous, there was this, there was that, there was the other, anything but. This afternoon the tables are the Court clock. Thank you, hon. members. turned -

The Court adjourned at 4.50 p.m. Mr Karran: Point of order, I am Chairman of the Water Authority, I am not in charge of fishes. Maybe he does not realise that. Department of Education — Revenue Accounts 2000-01 — Special Needs — A Member: Thank god for that. International Business School — Debate Mr Henderson: - and it was excellent to see the sudden Concluded — Expenditure Approved change. Suddenly it is not a waste of Court's time, it is anything but - The President: Now, hon. members, we are in the middle of a debate on item 11 and I call on the hon. member Mr Karran: It is nothing to do with me. for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Mr Henderson: - and I was very interested to see that Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. It is difficult transformation and we have still got it now. He does not to know where to start with this one. Being a departmental like it when the spot lamp is turned back. We can take the member, obviously I am supportive of the resolution. That criticism because there is nothing underhand happening at goes without saying and especially with the special needs all. section which I am associated with and the hard work that is ongoing at the minute. I am especially pleased with the Mr Karran: You would not know, son. hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Shimmin's, supportive comments on the issue, who recognises that there are Mr Henderson: - there is an honest.. . changes going on. I am also pleased with the balance to what has turned out to be an extraordinary debate that has The President: Continue, Mr Henderson. been put in by the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, and the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. I would Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I do not think urge members to think about what both those hon. members I need to say any more about it. The hon. minister for said when they are considering their position when the nonsense is making his own case for himself as I speak vote is taken. Now I have witnessed the most extraordinary and it is quite astonishing really. The point is that the outburst I think I have ever had the misfortune to witness Department of Education is coming to this Court with an in this hon. Court and, as far as I am concerned, it was honest endeavour here. As I say it is certainly worth nothing short of a disgusting carry on and electioneering listening to the hon. member for Ramsey and Mr Cannell, and bears little resemblance to what is the real picture based the hon. member for Onchan, and what they have to say. on the order paper. In fact I would say to hon. members As to some of the other contributions, especially in relation there were so many red herrings thrown in here from the to the disabled and so on, I thought that was an insult -

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Mrs Crowe: It is the truth. Mrs Crowe: Mr President, -

Mr Henderson: - because one of the members for the The President: I think, hon. member, you have already department has difficulty himself and finds it perfectly spoken to the question. acceptable to get around the particular area that is under the spotlight at the minute. So I think that myth is Mrs Crowe: Could I ask the Attorney-General for some completely dispelled and one or two other contributions legal advice, Mr President. When the Department of Local from the member for Rushen, I think, are equally vaporised Government said that they - as we progress and hear the facts as presented. But as I say I would urge hon. members to disregard the red herrings Mr Delaney: Mr President, what standing order is being and the smoke screens that were thrown up by the hon. called? member for Onchan - The President: We have a question of a legal matter Mr Karran: Just answer the question, that is all I ask. which the hon. member wishes to raise. I will let her ask the question. Mr Henderson: - and just look at the facts and the actual position as presented. Thank you, Mr President. Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. The Department of Local Government and the Environment took it upon The President: Hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey. themselves to slightly vary a covenant on land that stated it had to be a residence in parkland. I would have thought Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I did not expect to speak in that when covenants are involved one would have had to this debate but I think I should in view of some of the go to court but I just wonder if the Attorney-General could fears that may have been put into the mind of the public give me some advice on that matter, Mr President. about statements of £16 million for offices on the Nunnery et cetera. I would like to say that earlier this month, in fact The President: Mr Attorney. on Friday, 2nd February, my colleague in the Department of Local Government and the Environment, Mr Quine, and The Attorney-General: Thank you, Mr President. The I had a meeting with the Minister of Education and various type of covenant which the hon. member refers to is a officers about the Nunnery. Immediately the hon. member restrictive covenant, in other words it restricts the use of for Onchan I suppose will think, ah! we were there to the land to particular purposes. The benefit of enforcing develop the whole area and build social housing on it et that covenant is vested in the Department of Local cetera. But far from that being the case we were there Government and the Environment. That is the person who largely because we as a department regard ourselves as can enforce the covenant because the department has the guardians of very strong restrictive covenants which actually reserved ownership of some land nearby - I cannot this hon. Court imposed on the Nunnery during a Tynwald actually remember exactly where it was but I think it was debate in 1976. These covenants, which we are advised quite a big field - and, because the department has the right are legally absolutely binding, are to ensure that the of enforcing the covenant, it also has the right to vary the mansion had to remain as a residence in parkland and in wording of the covenant by agreement with the other party. fact it can only be used as a business school because the It is not unusual as developments go ahead for both parties department agreed in the public interest to slightly vary to get together and agree variation of covenants. them in that respect. I think all three politicians who were at that meeting were absolutely united in their view, which Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I am sure members of this hon. Court would agree with, that this hon. Court would in no circumstances agree to The President: I call on the minister to reply to the the removal of these restrictive covenants and indeed debate. certainly all of us were ourselves convinced that it would be totally wrong to do so. Therefore I shall make it quite Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to clear that this most historic building can only be used, say that this is I think one of the more bracing debates unless this hon. Court decides otherwise, as a mansion in (Laughter) I have had the pleasure of replying to since parkland or as a business school and that there can be no becoming minister on education matters and I would like question, without the approval of this hon. Court, of it being to thank all the members of this hon. Court for their turned into offices or developed for any kind of housing, contribution, from whatever source, because it does give however desirable social housing might be. Indeed I would an opportunity to flush out fact from fiction. I do welcome conclude by saying that the minute I hold says that, as far that particular opportunity. Turning to part (a) of the as the Department of Local Government and the resolution in respect of the special needs funding, one or Environment was concerned, none of the former estate was two members who have spoken on that have done so from suitable for social housing. So I would like to assure this the point of view of expressing support to the department. hon. Court that, as long as they wish, this very valuable I thank them for that support and that acknowledgement house and its surrounding parkland will be retained for that the department is giving very serious emphasis to the use as either a business school or a residence in addressing problems that have built up over time and the parkland. large demands on our special needs services which is a

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fact of modem life. As the hon. member for West Douglas, but also to offer, in time, a higher education option for our Mr Shimmin, has said it is partly due to a better recognition own young people. The research that was done in on the part of the department of some of the difficulties. conjunction with Liverpool University identified a niche They are not just, I would emphasise, behavioural market that the Isle of Man was well placed to deliver. difficulties but they are to do with real physical and mental The Treasury, rightly, required the business school to prove needs of a number of children. I think our ability to better itself before warranting the investment of long-term public address areas like dyslexia and autism and the better taxpayers' money and put a requirement on us that identification we are making at earlier stages of these government support, Treasury support, would be children has had something to do with the requirement to forthcoming for a period of three years - hence, as Dr Mann put in place the resources to ensure the needs are met. One- explained to us, the requirement to enter into a short-term to-one teaching is a feature. This requirement for staffing lease. We were well aware that in doing so it would pose is a very heavy drain on personnel. It is a duty to provide problems, which it certainly is doing now, to ensure the personnel because after all we are talking about the welfare long-term future of the business school but I am delighted of our young people, so that is what that one is all about. to report that the business school is proving itself as a viable Mr Waft, the hon. member of Council, asked for some institution, an institution worthy of the Isle of Man and clarification. Quite rightly he wanted an assurance as to worthy of continued public support, not least from inside whether with delegated financial management the special this hon. Court. It was set up, the International Business needs service would perhaps have to compete with other School Limited, as a company with charitable status with staffing issues in the schools. I can inform him and this three elements of partnership, a partnership between hon. Court that it is not intended in fact to devolve special government, between the academic sector and between the needs resources. This will be ring fenced by the department private sector. The unanimous view of the steering group, to ensure that those resources are protected. There is no which was very numerous indeed, was that the Nunnery question of special needs staff having to compete for building was the preferred location for a business school subject teachers or the like. As for the second part of the and to have a business school kick-started in the Isle of resolution, I think it was in Hamlet that I cannot remember Man. Other members have referred to the prestigious nature who it was that said, 'Get thee to a Nunnery'. (Laughter) I of the building and its setting, which in international terms thought it came from Macbeth and it was addressed to is very important. We are now in the position of being 18 Lady Macbeth but I am told it is Hamlet. Anyway my months off the end of the three year short lease commitment invitation to the hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, is and it is vital that the company and the directors devote to accompany me to the Nunnery - their energies to the long-term future of the business school and its preferred location. While the preferred location Mrs Crowe: I've been. remains the Nunnery, for very strong operational reasons - because it is still the most suitable site - the business Mr Rodan: - and I will be delighted to give her a guided school is bigger than any one building, it is bigger than the tour. premises which it occupies and it will continue regardless. Our hope is that, if commercial negotiations conducted in Mrs Crowe: I spent two days there unlike you. a rigorous commercial basis are successful, then the long- term future of the business school is in its present setting. Mr Rodan: - of this historic building - If she cares to I would be reluctant to go into any more detail and I will have her newly found companion from Onchan, Mr Karran, not do so. Suffice it to say that I hope members will in tow, I would be delighted to give them a tour of the understand that there is a real will to ensure the long-term `Rogues Gallery'. Perhaps we can then go to the haunted future of the institution in the most appropriate premises wing and perhaps end up in the dungeon's I am not sure if (Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear.) acknowledging the public there are dungeons. interest. As for what is happening in the business school, the initial academic partners were Liverpool University. Mr North: Make it the swimming pool. They remain academic partners and, despite what the hon. member for Onchan has indicated - I cannot remember Mrs Crowe: They have got a shell grotto John. the phrase he used, that they 'skedaddled' or whatever - the fact of the matter is that the business school decided to Mr Rodan: Well worth a look. Now, many issues have broaden out its academic linkages earlier than it would been raised, a number of them based on misinformation, I otherwise have done in order to secure the necessary am sorry to say, and I think it is important that the hon. validations of courses and accreditations. It was for that Court does understand what is happening in respect of the reason that we have concluded and are in the process of International Business School. My hon. colleague on the concluding, with four other academic institutions, department, Dr Mann, has set out the background to the partnerships. London Guildhall University is one of those setting up of an international business school, the amount partnerships. Nottingham Business School is one of those of market research that went on to identify that for the Isle partnerships and we are in the process of incorporating in of Man to succeed as an international place of business it the MBA degree, which we will be launching this should have a higher education facility specialising in September, a postgraduate degree course, elements from offshore business - in order to help consolidate that the New York Institute of Finance. We have established important position we find ourselves in in global terms with Manchester Business School a research relationship

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and the research fellow who is currently working at the well as their primary brief. Contact has been made with business school has in fact started to interact in research regulators' offices in several offshore jurisdictions because with Manchester. Liverpool Business School - this is via one of the great things about the way the Isle of Man is not Liverpool University but John Moores University placed is, such is the quality of our regulation, such is the which is also in the process of accrediting degrees. The international reputation of our regulation, that we are degrees, which are both part and full-time, which are starting to be seen as a place where regulators can be proposed to start from 2001, September of this year, are trained. The British Council has been approached for the MBA with optional financial specialisms, an MSc in international marketing assistance. The advertisements for international banking and finance, an MSc in financial the academic teaching staff that I referred to, the four places regulation and compliance and a BA (Hons) in business that are currently being filled, attracted over 120 studies. In addition various postgraduate degrees currently applications, many from the Isle of Man, many worldwide accredited to the Isle of Man College, which the hon. - 120 applications. It is very clear that members are rightly member for Onchan refers to - an institution which is fully concerned to know that this great enterprise - it is not all on board with the business school and is in fact represented, the time that the Isle of Man embarks on great enterprises the principal of the Isle of Man College is one of the - but this great enterprise is secure and will be successful governor's of the business school - a number of those because I do not want and neither do you want a failure. I courses will in fact be delivered within the business school, do hope we are not going to talk ourselves into failure such is the importance and the appropriateness of the setting because many of the comments I have heard this afternoon to so deliver. I can assure the hon. member for Rushen, - and I will not descend to the level of language used by Mrs Crowe, that these universities, never mind Isle of Man some hon. members using words like, 'scam' and 'sham' College, would not be accrediting the business school if and 'embarrassment', which are some of the milder ones - they thought for one minute that the facilities, and the facilities which the £534,000 you are being asked to Mr Karran: You will not answer them that is why. endorse this afternoon have helped create, unless they were suitable, eminently suitable for the students that are Mr Henderson: He just. did. envisaged. If hon. members doubt the suitability of the business school or doubt the fact that there will actually Mr Rodan: Mr President, I believe the business school be real live students in that place - and I hear grunts or has a lot of work to do to secure its future. Not the least is moans about that just now - I can tell them that the head to ensure that the business school is housed in the correct teachers of our five secondary schools and King William's premises. That process is underway at the moment and I College do not share those misgivings. I can tell the hon. cannot spell out to the hon. member for Onchan the details member that the heads of sixth form business studies do of that for what I would have thought were obvious not share those misgivings and I can tell them that careers commercial reasons. So I hope he and everyone else in advisers operating in schools are extremely enthusiastic this hon. Court will accept why I cannot spell it out in about Isle of Man students, as an option, having the detail but I believe, Mr President, finally we have the business school's doors open to go through this September. makings of a very successful international business school Tomorrow the final appointment academically is going to that will do us proud and will stand in the very long tradition be made. A number of appointments have already been we have had in this Island of placing high value on made. The final interviews are taking place tomorrow for education. For the first time we will be placed to deliver the management academic post. Next week the first of our higher education and in time perhaps a University of Man short courses commences, because people will be naturally which has been a long held dream - suspicious that the place will be empty until September and they are likely to go in and disappear into a void. Well, Mrs Crowe: Absolutely. I can tell them, of course, that short courses are on stream and the Chartered Institute of Marketing is starting next Mr Rodan: - and please view this as the first step week, very well subscribed to, in delivering modules in towards that dream and support the motion this afternoon. internet and e-commerce with introductions to strategic marketing, et cetera, marketing financial services and so The President: Hon. members, the motion before us on. So without going into the details it will be reassuring then is that printed at 11 on your order paper. Those in that members who have been on the Magic courses, which favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. continue - there are short courses meeting the needs of the finance sector in the Isle of Man currently taking place in A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: the business school. The business school will be represented at the careers conventions which will take place in schools in the coming weeks and the recruitment In the Keys - exhibition to be held in June at Mount Murray. A number of international agents have agreed to work with the For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Mrs Crowe, International Business School in terms of international Messrs Rimington, Brown, Houghton, Henderson, recruitment. The government roadshows, and the one to Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Shimmin, Downie, South Africa I believe is coming up, will carry material Mrs Hannan, Singer, Bell, Corkill, Cannell, Gelling and and at least two members of that team have an IBS brief as the Speaker - 20

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Against: Mr Karran -1 offences where all other community options have been tried. The unit will be of single storey construction to be The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the built on the White Hoe site. The unit complies with all the House of Keys, 20 votes in favour and 1 vote against. appropriate guidelines issued by the UK Department of Health and has been designed so as to allow for a number In the Council - of different layouts so that we can meet the needs of different combinations of children and young people who For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Waft, Dr Mann, may need to be managed separately within the unit. We Mr Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney anticipate that, with the Court's approval, the construction and Crowe - 8 will be completed by June 2002 with the unit becoming operational in the autumn of that year. Mr President, we Against: None did have some discussion last month at the sitting of this Court in relation to children with behavioural difficulties The President: All members of the Council voting in and so I would curtail my remarks at that point and seek to favour, hon. members, therefore the motion carries. answer any questions which members have. I beg to move the resolution standing in my name. Mr Cannell: Mr President, I wondered if you could allow me to ask you for some small guidance please. I The President: The hon. member Mr Cannell. gather that that preceding resolution was in respect of moneys which have already been expended and I wondered Mr Cannell: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, what would be the position had the vote not been taken to Mr President. concur with that and is this to become a regular procedure? The President: The hon. member Mr Houghton. The President: I do not think it is to be a regular procedure at all, but I think provision had been made for Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. The purpose it. for getting up so quick to second this and obviously it was to try and second this motion, but give it wholehearted support, is because it was my baby in the division in my Department of Health and Social Security — time before the hon. member arrived in that division of Construction of Secure Unit — course. Expenditure Approved Mr Karran: Its a good job we are not in North Douglas here, isn't it? The President: We will turn to item number 12, Construction of a Secure Unit, and I call on the Minister Mr Houghton: It is indeed, sometimes, yes. Mr for Health and Social Security. President, as I say, it was I who promoted the need for this very important and essential facility. Throughout the whole Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: of my time, during my responsibilities for social services when I was there and following a very lengthy battle with That Tynwald approves of the Department of Health the department, I succeeded in reaching agreement that and Social Security incurring expenditure not exceeding urgent provision should be made for secure care as soon £1,991,581 for the construction of a secure unit. as capital to fund the provision of this unit could be found. This goes back now almost four years, sir. My only concern This resolution seeks approval for the department to today, therefore, is that the five bed facility will be construct a secure unit, incurring expenditure not exceeding inadequate by the time it comes on line, unfortunately. I £1,991,581, which will allow for the accommodation of would strongly advise that provision is made at design stage up to five children and young people in a secure to allow for an extension to this facility in the future. environment. At the present time children and young people However, there is no doubt that the facility will assist in in the care of the department are placed in open trying to contain the bizarre and violent behaviour of those accommodation on the Island. The only facility that can youngsters who pose a threat against members of the be said to be secure is that provided within the Isle of Man public, themselves and other peoples property. I would like Prison and this is recognised now as being an inappropriate to take this opportunity to commend the minister and the environment for young people. The secure unit will be department, including the member now for Social Services, purpose-built and, whilst providing the highest levels of for all the obviously hard work they have done in seeing security, it will also provide an environment that is homely that this has now come to fruition and thank you. in order to meet the needs of the children who will be placed there. The secure care unit will have these basic uses: firstly The President: The hon. member Mr Delaney. it can be used for children who are persistent absconders and are a danger to themselves and others; secondly it can Mr Delaney: I think we all look forward to supporting be used for those who are alleged to have committed a this resolution, Mr President. Just a question which is an serious offence; and thirdly for those found guilty of serious obvious one. With a growing population, why was the

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figure of five, the figure of the number of children, only The President: The hon. member for Douglas West, that will be required to be looked after now and the coming Mr Shimmin. years? Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Not for the The President: The hon. member for Middle Mr North. first time I would like to associate and agree entirely with the previous speaker. I do believe that the decision taken Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. This is a subject some years ago was right at the time for the circumstances which is probably one of the first problems that I - that there was an absence and therefore into the prison encountered when I came into this hon. Court in 1988. they went - but that should always have been an emergency The changes that were being made which I was totally short-term. We should have been aiming to the day we are against at the time. Magistrates were against it. We have getting to today. I was on the Department of Home Affairs almost done a full circle and I am delighted. My and had the opportunity of visiting with the department constituents in Cronkbourne Village have had to put up these facilities which are so much better for everyone with all the nonsense (Members: Hear, hear.) that has concerned than anything we could ever have provided in a happened. Really, I hope they will be very pleased with prison penal situation. There should no longer in this day this resolution and I really thank the department, all those and age be any circumstance when young people would that have been involved in actually getting it here and go into a prison, however separated from the adult inmates. putting it back and separating so that children who, for That was always, or should have been, a target. I am instance, have been abused or whatever, for no reason of delighted we are now in a position to reach it, but I do their own, are not mixing in any shape or form with thugs. concur entirely with the member for Peel, that these young Thank you, Mr President. people are a product of the upbringing in the society in which they live and all of us - and I have saidit before - all The President: The hon. member for Council, the Lord of us have sympathy for five and six year old children Bishop. who behave inappropriately with aggression and violence. They are the victims. When those same children become The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, I 14 they become thugs. It is our responsibility as commend this project. Having seen the temporary parliamentarians, as a government, to ensure that those accommodation in the prison that was built some years four, five, six-year-old children when identified are treated ago to accommodate young offenders, it certainly was quite with care rather than (Members: Hear, hear.) throwing unacceptable and so I am very glad that this is coming on away any sympathy just liecause we have failed to identify stream. Just one question for the minister. Are there any and deal with those behaviours earlier. We are now plans at the moment, or what are the plans in hand, to train financially in a position to be able to put in the expertise. I suitable staff to run such an up-market unit? Because I commend the department and good luck to them. think the staffing would be all important in the future and I think that has got to be on stream now at the same time The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr as the planning Cannell.

The President: The hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful for what appears to be fairly equilateral support for this Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I am alarmed secure unit scheme. I am reluctant to say that we welcome by the language that has been used to talk about children the scheme because in actual fact we welcome its provision, who are damaged. We have talked about thugs. These we do not welcome the necessity for it as I have said before, children are damaged children, whether they have been but we do have to address what is a system now which has abused by their families, by life or whatever. They need been shown elsewhere to fail and which we need to address. our care, they need our protection, they need our help. If (A Member: Hear, hear.) I am one of those who have been we can do that through this secure unit, then so be it, but fortunate, or unfortunate whatever you care to say, to what we want is a unit which is going to work for the actually have been to see one of these units in action. It benefit of these young people, with professionals who can was the one at St Helens. You get put inside and they do help these young people. I am appalled by some of the lock the door after you whether you are a visitor or not - language from politicians who should know better, who have worked in some of these areas. Yes, some of these Mr Houghton: That is right. children do have challenging behaviour, but they have • challenging behaviour because they have been treated the Mr Cannell: - and it is quite frightening to behold. But, way they have throughout their very short life. I was nevertheless, it is an institution which holds no fears for opposed to the unit at the prison and I did a paper on that those who wish to avail themselves of an opportunity, at the time that it was formed. It was a wrong decision and because what you get in there is not a hopeless lock up it was a decision that should not have been taken at that with the key thrown away. What you are actually time. That was the time to put professionals in to help these embarking upon, hopefully, in the majority of cases, is a very damaged young lives and I think some of the language programme of rehabilitation - that has been used this afternoon is an insult to this Court and to those children. A Member: Absolutely.

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Mr Cannell: - and education and the skills which, it just such a thing and I am pleased to say that they were has got to be said, contribute to the arrival of the people into action pretty quickly. I understand they had their first who are going to be inmates there because they are meeting last Monday, where the astonishing principle was frequently the product of bad parenting. They are people laid down by someone who was there who said you can who are the children of people who have had children and actually begin to identify problem children even before are inadequate to look after them. It is not those children's they are born because you can see the type of parents who faults and there is plenty of evidence to show that many are producing these children and you know that the can be saved and go on to lead quite a productive life in circumstances they are in are likely to cause trouble. If we society and even better than that. Now, there are a can go back to that we might even need to go back to before significant number of people, but I would not like members conception where we actually advise parents that unless to think this is going to be a panacea to all trouble in the their circumstances are better then they should not have Isle of Man. children because they are going to have trouble in later life. You might say that is a right which no-one enjoys. Mr Houghton: It is going to be a major influence. You might say that no-one should do that, but in actual fact if it is society which has got to pay all the bills, then Mr Cannell: The construction of this building, as I said society must have a voice and that society comes in on the earlier on - and one or two people have said to me, it is a back of the public taxpayer who has later to entertain these funny thing to have said, that you hope it will remain empty. ideas where parents have children and then wash their What are you spending the money on for? I was just trying hands of them and leave them to the state. But we are to make a point that ideally we would only have the having the construction of this unit at the White Hoe now. occasional person who would be needed to be put there. I am pleasantly surprised how well it has proceeded along But realistically it is unlikely that it will be empty. with political backing because I think people do take a rather more responsible attitude with this and they know Mr Houghton: It will be packed out. that the department have thoroughly researched it. It now only remains for the vote to be taken and it can get under Mr Cannel!: Now there are five beds, but there is way and I am hopeful that the building will be operational provision for a further two within it. So technically in about 18 months time. It will, as I say, probably be small speaking it is a seven bed unit and there are methods of in years to come but what is the use of building somewhere integrating, interchange between children of different for 20 because my experience of it is, it is too easy to have groups and children of different sexes, but the main thing a place with 20 in and even more referrals which are of that is that it is all staffed from the same unit. It is a unsuitable are put to it. You do not want that. You want difficult principle to identify, but it is based on a central whoever is going to commit these people to this unit to staffing principle servicing all of the units. So there will think 'Is this the best way forward? Is it something of a be seven, but I know what you are thinking because I think last resort?' Because otherwise the temptation will be just the same myself. Will even that be big enough? Well, I to throw them in to get shut of them for the weekend as think it will, because we are not going to have a situation being a nuisance. That is not what we are looking for. It is where any small Tom, Dick and Harry on a Friday night, secure accommodation with the object of actually making who is causing trouble to a late High Bailiff's court, which the people revert to some kind of meaningful and run Friday afternoons - or used to when I used to attend worthwhile existence. So please, hon. members, do your them in my reporting capacity - and on a summer's night best to commend this. It is a lot of money, but I think it is at about half past seven or something when a gang are extremely worthwhile. brought in for shoplifting or whatever they have done it would be all too easy to just file them out to the White The President: The hon. member for Council, Mr Waft. Hoe and be shut of them for the weekend. That is not what a unit like this is for. This is for the persistent people who Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to support have caused repeated trouble. Now we have down at the this wholeheartedly. I have had the experience of looking former Cummal Shee, now Priory House, a difficulty after children in the past with problems, as has my because we have not got the facility that we are having colleague from North Douglas, who have been through here in this secure unit because it is not secure. That is the the hands of the courts and the hospitals and the social point. Priory House, Cummal Shee, give a dog a bad name, workers. I, like the previous speaker, would like to see it is not secure and I sympathise with the members who that this establishment is not going to be starved of have had their constituents placed in difficulty by our resources. Now it is easy to say that we are going to have inmates from there causing trouble in the district. I am not child psychologists, child psychiatrists, social workers, for a moment suggesting build this, open it up with great psychiatric social workers. If you have not actually got panache, put a few in and the problem is over. That will them in hand, if you are advertising for them and you not be the case I am afraid. What we have got to do - and cannot get them, that is unacceptable. This establishment, I gather this is happening now - is to go further back and if it is to be a success, must not be starved of resources. identify why we are having these people who need to have There must be staff on hand and the correct staff and they such an expensive facility to cope with them. I understand need to be assessed from time to time in a non-judgemental now that there is a Council of Ministers Committee set up atmosphere. I would hope, as previous speakers have covering cross-departmental interests which will address hoped, that is not a case of just putting them in there and

Department of Health and Social Security — Construction of Secure Unit — Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001 T571

that is the problem sorted. This is not the case. So if the Bishop in terms of the staffing levels I take it that the society minister would think hard when she does say that the will help to manage and perhaps help with the plans et facilities are going to be there and the staffing is going to cetera for rehabilitation following spending some period be there, to make sure that the staffing is there, because as of time within the unit. Are we going to be able to provide I have said, it is too often the case of 'Well, we have the manpower to complete and complement that service? advertised, but we have not got anybody that is suitable' Not forgetting, in another place, we are presently going or Nobody would reply.' This has got to be addressed through the Children and Young Persons legislation and and if it is salaries, the salaries must be attractive to the that in itself requires a great number of additional people who want to get over on the Island. Thank you, Mr personnel, not least in the psychology and the psychiatry President. areas, but in other areas too. So are we going to be able to meet with what appears to be a growing demand which The President: The hon. member for Douglas East, disturbs me greatly. Overall I welcome the initiative. I wish Mrs Cannell. the department well in securing the building, but I sincerely hope again - it has already been said and I will echo that Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I also rise to sentiment too - that there will be more than sufficient my feet obviously in support of the item on the agenda, financial and budgetary provision in the future to but I am rather concerned though that the figures have risen. complement this service to enable the young people, to Whereas in the explanatory memorandum we are advised extend it whatever, but to provide for proper rehabilitation that between 1996 and 1997 there were four such young following spending a certain degree of time within the unit, people who presented problems for the department, that but please, minister, let us know what the department is rose to 11 in 1998-99 and currently February 2000, I take doing to identify the root problems here. it that is the date, it is up to 30 young people with challenging behaviour or whatever. So really what we are The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr considering here today is a mechanism by which to assist Karran. in treating a symptom of something else. What I would ask the hon. minister is, what sort of work and research is Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think that it is nice to see so currently ongoing in terms of establishing what the primary many people who are looking from a wider viewpoint that root cause is for such growth in such young people. I what normally would be the case as far as this subject. appreciate everything that was said by the hon. member When I think back to 1982 when I went on to the Board of for Peel. They are to a large extent damaged young people Education as a non-Tyriwald member and we had the and it us as a society that are responsible for that. Now we horrifying situation that we were throwing shoplifters in have heard that the parents are responsible. I believe we with granny murderers in the adjacent isle and we battled are all responsible if a young person is putting forward for years to try and get some sort of resemblance of sanity challenging behaviour, is insecure or whatever. Whatever as far as this affair is concerned. I think what is hopefully that root cause is, that young person is reacting to what it going to come out as far as this project today is that it will is that has triggered it and there is always a trigger in these not be the political compromise that we have seen far too situations. The trigger might have happened very early on often in the past. I mean the likes of the name Cummal in life and it has not been picked up by us, as a society, and Shee, as a former member who set up Social Services in dealt with at that stage. What does concern me is the "hang this country, it was certainly not the apt name we wanted. them high, lock em away" attitude for such young We wanted Ard Vadran - 'Fresh Start' - not 'Dwelling of vulnerable people. It is all very well us having a secure Peace' - unit and, yes, we do need it. Not to punish and lock away merely, but let us not forget that we are also looking at Mr Houghton: It did a lot of good, Peter, didn't it? providing a secure accommodation so that unauthorised persons cannot enter and very often the child is taken into Mr Karran: - and I think the member in my former a secure environment to protect them from others who constituency had to live through the years of headaches perhaps would do them further harm and cause further that it did have simply because it was not done on the basis challenging behaviour for the department or the secure unit of what was needed, but what was politically acceptable to deal with. So let us not just look upon it as people who at the time. If they had done what we wanted them to do in have become intolerant to members of society as we see the first place we would not be here today, but that is a them today and that we must merely lock them away. That wonderful thing with hindsight. The fact was that my first is not the idea behind this secure unit as I read it. It is there Director of Social Services paid the price as far as this is for all sorts of reasons, but primarily it is for the child, for concerned with all the other aggravation there was at the the young person's protection and for their interest. So I time. I think this Court should support this issue. I am would like to know what we are doing as a society, as a always criticising about the capital programme and things responsible government and parliament, to addressing the that have to have a priority. This has to have a priority. It causes of such behavioural problems in young people. How has been refreshing to hear so many people talk about these are we identifying that? But, just on the mechanisms, I am individuals. Yes, they need restraint, they need to know quite pleased that the Nugent Care Society in partnership how far their boundaries are and I am not denying that and with the department are going to help to manage the unit, that was one of the problems we had. Last time we had a but would echo again the comments made by the hon. bite at trying to deal with delinquent kids we had a situation

Department of Health and Social Security — Construction of Secure Unit — Expenditure Approved T572 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2001

where we came up with a plan for a therapeutic unit and a are not some of the children who might be needing this juvenile unit and we were told we had to use the existing care and this facility. Abused children are sometimes the unit because the then Prime Minister of this country had most disturbed and violent of all and who can fail to designed it with the Chief Secretary. When we did that we understand that after the sort of betrayal they have had were then inflicted and hit over the head and then we ended from adults. I certainly feel that babies are not born bad. up with the man head-count coming in and we could not There is something that happens in their lives which creates run it, the Department of Health and Social Security, the sort of problems that we have today. The facility will because Social Services was not just the poor relation - it be operated, subject to us coming to a satisfactory was not a relation in the DHSS when I first set up Social contractual arrangement with Nugent Care Society. They Services. So consequently we were told it was thrown off will fully manage and run the operation. That will be their to the National Children's Home, so that what happened responsibility. They have already experience of running then was - it was a bit like trying to get the priest to start such a unit in the north west of England, which the learning the people how to speak Yiddish. The situation department have visited. Now the hon. member, Mrs was that it was totally alien as far as that side of child care Carmen is supportive, but is concerned about staffing. They was concerned. The National Children's Home was never are very specialised people who work in these units and ever. . . it was totally against their beliefs to run a juvenile undoubtedly it is not necessarily going to be easy to get justice unit and so consequently, because we had the man the staff. Nugent Care will be charged with that head-count we were forced to go down that road. So what responsibility in undertaking their contractual obligations. we ended up was creating a foetal monster as far as that is However, no matter how often you sign a contractual concerned. I am sure today that we have got it right this obligation you have still got to find the staff and I do accept time and I think that that is something that - that it is important that they meet their obligations in that way. Certainly in terms of the providers who assist the A Member: You have not in the past. department at the moment with young people in care, on occasion there have been difficulties in getting the right Mr Karran: - has to be applauded for that it is right, calibre of staff. But it will be critical to the effectiveness that we are going down the right lines and not going down of this unit that the proper staffing is in place. Now so far the political compromises that have been done in the past as the resources available for that are concerned I will look as far as this is concerned. It is nice to see there is more in to this hon. Court to provide the resources which are this Court that want to try and solve the problem than just necessary to make it work effectively. The rehabilitation the easy option of hanging, flogging and now I hear element of it is a primary element of the whole programme sterilisation is on the agenda (Laughter) from the right wing and this building will be a part of a continuum of care in this Court - and maybe a Sunday School trip to Bavaria either in Priory House or Leece Lodge or on an outreach as well is another one of some of the members in this Court. basis in young people's own homes or in other settings. It Independents. They call themselves Tories but that is not is not a question of putting young people in here and the case. Eaghtyrane, I support this proposal in front of us keeping them there for ever and a day. Firstly they are in today. I hope that we will remember that it is not cheap our care and then, when their problems are presenting and there is not a cheap political option as far as this is dangers to themselves or others, it will be determined by concerned. There will be failures, but at the end of the Social Services that they need to go into this secure unit. day, if we can break that circle of them ending up in Mr The question of whether or not we can, at design stage, Bell's 156 - base prison then we have achieved a lot as far make provision for extension - it is a little late for that. as that. It is better to put the intervention in the early time Tynwald approved design fees some while ago. The of their lives than having them as long term, negative building is now designed. The numbers to be contributors to this country. accommodated have been based on best estimates of those who have been caring for these young people and it will The President: I call on the minister to reply to the depend, I suppose, on the nature of the young people, some debate. of whom are currently placed in the United Kingdom because we cannot manage them here and some of them Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Can I thank indeed have been returned from the United Kingdom hon. members for the generally supportive tone of the because they cannot manage them there either in very debate. Indeed I can only emphasise that this is a welfare specialist units. We have some extremely difficult young facility and that is how we should view it primarily. The people to care for. In terms of what we are doing about hon. members have enquired as to the scope of the building analysing the reasons for this growth in numbers, well, I and whether or not it is going to be big enough and my think at the debate last month we did indicate that in some hon. colleague has indicated that there are actually seven cases and in some areas, for example in the areas of abuse places within the building, though there is provision there of different kinds, there is much more willingness I think for sub-division and it is generally anticipated that they to come forward now and disclose this kind of abuse as would operate it on the basis of caring for five children children are building up a confidence to talk with their there. I do take issue with my hon. colleague for Middle, teachers or other adults on these particular matters. So that Mr North, in respect of describing certain categories of may not be an actual growth in occurrence it may be a young people who might be cared for in this facility. growth in revealing what has been happening to young Somehow or other he seems to think that abused children people. So far as others are concerned, well, there may be

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a variety of reasons. Certainly across departments there is much work going on to try and,support and change these behavioural patterns. I think the recent establishment of the Chief Minister's cross-departmental group has at the core of its purpose to analyse what we are doing, why it is not working. Perhaps it is working, but not quickly enough or perhaps we need to invest resource in a different way. But the establishment of that group is for the purpose of analysing what is happening now, what it is we feel we need to do and where it is we feel we are lacking in the current government provision. I believe that that is a positive step forward in trying to analyse and get a grip of this growth in the development of unacceptable behaviour, for whatever reason that is happening. Mr President, I sense that the Court will support this. I do endorse the remarks of my hon. colleague that even with this it is not going to be a panacea to all ills. There will still be problems out there in society, and we will have to cope with that, but this will certainly be a useful measure through which we can assist the rehabilitation of these young people.

The President: Hon. members, the motion before you is printed at 12 on the order paper, Construction of a Secure Unit. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now, hon. members, being aware of the clock, it strikes me that it is somewhat foolish to embark on trying to continue with 14 items on our order paper still outstanding. I am reluctant to continue on and then find ourselves defeated at say 8 or 9 o'clock and not getting through and I would suggest that it would be sensible to, at this stage, adjourn and sit in the morning. Agreed, hon. members?

Members: Agreed.

The President: In that case, hon. members, the Court will adjourn until 10.30 a.m. tomorrow morning. Thank you.

The Court adjourned at 6.26 p.m.

Department of Health and Social Security — Construction of Secure Unit — Expenditure Approved