Thursday Volume 506 4 March 2010 No. 50

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 4 March 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 995 4 MARCH 2010 996

Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): Will the House of Commons Minister examine the OFT’s powers to tackle this issue? The electronic version of these scams is new, whereas Thursday 4 March 2010 the paper version is not, but, like the paper one, it is becoming much more sophisticated and much more believable. I am not sure that the OFT has sufficient The House met at half-past Ten o’clock powers to tackle those scams, particularly when they originate from another country.

PRAYERS Kevin Brennan: My hon. Friend raises a good point. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] The OFT and trading standards have powers under the Enterprise Act 2002 and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, but we are examining BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS enforcers’ powers to tackle online consumer problems to see whether they need to be strengthened, and we are LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] discussing that possibility with the relevant key players. (BY ORDER) Second Reading opposed and deferred until Thursday University Funding 18 March (Standing Order No. 20). 2. Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): When he last met representatives of the Russell Oral Answers to Questions group to discuss university funding; and if he will make a statement. [320193]

The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Property (Mr. David Lammy): I last met the director general of the Russell group on 23 February, when we discussed higher education funding, among other subjects. The Minister of State was asked— Mr. Kennedy: The Minister will be aware of my Online Fraud association with the university of Glasgow, which is a member of the Russell group. The Beatson institute for 1. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): What steps his cancer research remains at the cutting edge and international Department is taking to protect individuals from forefront of cancer research generally. Given the squeeze organised fraudulent online schemes which solicit on higher education funding, can he assure us that money and financial details. [320192] internationally leading research of the type at Glasgow will continue to receive the support that it both needs The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and, as I am sure he will agree, deserves? and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): On 2 July 2009, the Government published the consumer White Paper, Mr. Lammy: I acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman’s which details plans for more effective enforcement against position as rector of that university and his continuing those who deliberately set out to defraud consumers. I championing of it in this House. I also recognise that recently announced funding of £4.3 million for the that cancer facility is world renowned. He will appreciate Office of Fair Trading and trading standards to tackle that the Scottish Funding Council and the research those who use the internet to con consumers. council are rightly responsible for science funding more broadly, and that any funding decisions are rightly their Ann Winterton: The majority of victims of cyber responsibility under the Haldane principle. scams are people aged between 35 and 44, but those aged 55 and over lose most money and are more likely Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): Will my to succumb to scams on more than one occasion. What right hon. Friend ensure that when the research money specifically are the Government planning to assist those is allocated there is no further concentration of funding, people to understand the dangers that they are face? for example, on the Russell group? Will he confirm that all centres of excellence in research, wherever they may Kevin Brennan: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to be found across the university system, including in the say that it is very important to consider the impact on superb materials science group in the university of vulnerable people, including the elderly, of the sorts of Bolton—my own university—are considered equally scams that we have seen operated on the internet. That for funding with the top-level research universities? is why we are investing in the scambusters team and trying to raise awareness of the problem among older Mr. Lammy: Drawing on his tremendous experience, people. She might be interested to learn that my predecessor my hon. Friend continues to champion science and and former First Minister of Wales, Rhodri Morgan, research issues in this House. He is absolutely right to has just taken up the internet; when he was recently in say that we should fund excellence wherever it is found, the office he received an e-mail, which he showed to me, and that is the Government’s policy. from a woman who said that he was exactly the kind of man she was looking for. I did point out that it was not Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): from my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North Can the Minister give an undertaking that when the (Julie Morgan)—his wife. Browne committee reports after the election and imposes 997 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 998 greater debt on students in order to fund universities, Late Payments that funding will not be removed from universities in terms of their central Government funding? Can he assure 3. Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): us that universities will at least be better off if students How many small businesses which supply his have to pay higher fees through increased debt? Department did not have their invoices paid within his Department’s target time in the latest period for which Mr. Lammy: I know that the hon. Gentleman is an figures are available. [320194] educated man, but I did not realise that he was a fortune teller. I am not going to anticipate the Browne review. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Stephen Timms): In January, Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will the fewer than one in 18 supplier invoices to the Department Minister consider reducing funding to universities that took longer than 10 days to pay. Data are not kept fail to take action to stop the propagation of Jew hate separately for small businesses, but data regarding the and anti-Semitism on campus? invoices of all suppliers are published on the Department’s website every month. Mr. Lammy: I recognise that this is a very serious issue. I was pleased to meet the all-party group against anti-Semitism and to meet Jewish students recently to Mr. Binley: About 4,000 business failures were caused discuss these matters. My right hon. Friend will know by late payment last year. How will the Government that I have regularly brought together universities, students protect failing businesses as a result of late payment and others in the sector to discuss these matters. I do and what sanctions have they promised to impose on not believe that this is a widespread problem across businesses that contribute to the problem by delaying British universities, but I recognise that examples of it payment? are patchy. We must remain vigilant and we must not allow anti-Semitism anywhere on campuses in this country. Mr. Timms: The hon. Gentleman will know about the legislation that we have introduced, but, in reality, companies Mr. David Willetts (Havant) (Con): Will the Minister are reluctant to take sanctions against their customers. confirm that the Government have set a target of 50 per He is absolutely right to highlight the importance of cent. of young people going to university, and that this this issue and to draw attention to those 4,000 businesses. year—the very year to which the target applies—they That is why we launched the prompt payment code for are fining universities to the tune of £10 million simply government at the start of the downturn. We have because they have recruited more students? Is it not the committed to a central Government target of 10-day final absurdity of Labour’s target culture that it can set payment of invoices, on which we have a very good a target and then punish institutions for taking the record of adherence. In addition, we have taken very measures needed to hit it? Why does he not instead successful action to support small businesses through match our pledge to offer 10,000 more university places the Revenue and Customs’ time to pay initiative. The this year? measures that we have taken have made a big contribution to the relatively low record of business failures during Mr. Lammy: Because the hon. Gentleman’s pledge is the recession that we have just come through, compared bogus and ridiculous. It would involve the Government with past recessions. borrowing more money to help which students pay off their loans quickly? The richest students. That is where Royal Mail his heart lies. The 50 per cent. participation rate is an aspiration that his party has continually opposed. We have got the figure up to 43 per cent., so there are more 4. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) young people than ever before going to university, including (LD): What plans he has for the future of Royal Mail’s more young people from poorer socio-economic groups universal service obligation; and if he will make a than ever in our history, but his party has opposed the statement. [320195] measure at every opportunity.This is the most opportunistic volte-face I have seen in the House for a long time. The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat McFadden): The Government are committed to maintaining Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): Excellence the one-price-goes-anywhere universal postal service. In should always be invested in. In the north-east, both the UK, the universal service provides a six-day-a week Sunderland and Teesside universities offer such excellence, letter service and a five-day-a-week parcel service. This so is it not about time that they received research goes beyond the minimum requirement in the relevant moneys equivalent to those received by the Russell EU Directive and we have no plans to change the group universities and the greater amounts received by universal service obligation. universities in the golden triangle? Mr. Carmichael: I am grateful to the Minister for that Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend continues to make the answer. Is he aware that Postcomm has issued no fewer case for the north-east and for excellent universities than 46 licences entitling companies to deliver to the such as Teesside and Sunderland, which do fantastic door? Does he accept that that raises a real danger of work, particularly in applied research. She is right that cherry-picking in urban areas? That would leave Royal funding must follow excellence wherever it is found. I Mail having to deliver the universal service to the rural cannot anticipate decisions that are appropriately the areas, and raise long-term concerns about the sustainability domain of peer review, but she is absolutely right and of that service. Are the Government looking at the the Government support that approach. future in that context? 999 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1000

Mr. McFadden: As I said, we are determined to keep Mr. McFadden: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the universal service. It is an important part of the raising a very good point. We have been talking to the social glue of the nation, and it is particularly valued in banks about this, particularly in the light of consultation constituencies such as the hon. Gentleman’s, which is on post office banking. Members of the public may not one of the most beautiful and remote parts of the UK. be aware that some 20 million high street bank accounts He referred to competition, but most of the competition are currently accessible through the post office, but I developed in mail so far has been in upstream access agree that we want that number to rise. We want more and not door-to-door delivery. The vast majority of banks to allow people to access their accounts through letters—I think around 98 or 99 per cent.—are still the post office network. delivered every day by the Royal Mail. We express our gratitude to the hard-working postmen and postwomen Sector Skills Councils whodoit. 5. Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Of course my What recent assessment he has made of the effect of right hon. Friend is right to show his commitment to the work of the sector skills councils on the skills level the USO, and we are pleased to hear it. Does he accept, of the work force. [320196] however, that the USO ought to be backed up with a very strong post office network with a community bank? The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships The two go hand in hand: will he please show the same and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): Sector skills commitment on that? councils help raise demand for skills, provide authoritative labour market intelligence and ensure that qualifications Mr. McFadden: I agree that banking and financial meet employer needs. Their annual skills assessment services are already a very important source of revenue sets out how the skills needs of their sectors are being for the Post Office, which has some 2 million financial met, and all SSCs have recently undergone a robust and services customers. We recently issued a consultation rigorous relicensing process. document asking the public about the extra services that they would like, and also about things such as Jeff Ennis: The Minister will be aware of the recent current accounts, weekly budgeting accounts, children’s Baker Tilly report, which indicated the positive impact savings accounts, and so on. Like my hon. Friend, I that sector skills councils are having on the UK economy. think that such services offer huge potential for Post But is he also aware of the memorandum of understanding Office revenues. Traditionally, people went along to the that is being signed next week by the Alliance of Sector post office every week to claim their pensions or benefits, Skills Councils and the Federation of Small Businesses but those claimant patterns have been in decline in to ensure that qualifications being offered in the future recent years. That decline is probably likely to continue. by the SSCs are more relevant to micro and small businesses? Mr. Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): The Government have ignored the sensible recommendations Kevin Brennan: Yes, I am aware of that, and later of the Hooper report and abandoned their own Postal today I will meet John McNamara, who is in charge of Services Bill, so does the Secretary of State have any the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils, when I can policy that is designed to save the universal service—or, discuss the points that my hon. Friend raises. He is for that matter, the future of the Royal Mail? absolutely right; qualifications should be those that employers find useful, and the involvement of sector Mr. McFadden: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman skills councils in developing qualifications is one of the for my premature and—at the moment—fictional features of the skills system that the Government have promotion, but I will stick to the job that I have. The developed that makes them more relevant to employers most important thing for the future of Royal Mail is a and, therefore, to employees and learners. comprehensive modernisation package that covers the introduction of new technology into the network as Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): This week well as the number of mail centres, delivery offices and a delegation from the print industry in the Yorkshire so on. The package should also cover the working and Humber region told us clearly that sector skills practices that will need to alter to accommodate those councils are not hitting the mark. Please will the Minister changes. make them more responsive to the needs of employers, For the past couple of months, these very matters particularly to train the up and coming leaders of local have been the subject of intense negotiations chaired by businesses? Mr. Roger Poole, the former deputy general secretary of Unison. I am hopeful that a comprehensive modernisation Kevin Brennan: Yesterday, in the Department, we agreement will be reached. If it is, that will be in the held a summit at the behest of the sector skills council interests of Royal Mail, its staff, and the public. employers and trade unions in the print industry to consider its future and its needs. If the representatives Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ from the hon. Lady’s constituency were not invited to Co-op): Three major banks still do not let customers that, perhaps she will let me know. We would certainly use banking facilities at post offices, even though two of like to involve them in those discussions because the them are partly owned by the Government. What progress print industry has a great future. It is not the old-fashioned is being made towards allowing customers of those industry that it sometimes has a reputation for being. It banks to use post offices? That would provide extra has lots of small and medium-sized enterprises, and business for post offices, and extra facilities for their great and exciting technological developments are going customers. on that we need to take advantage of. 1001 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1002

Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): point, therefore, of this new lumbering state corporation, Is the Minister aware that the largest single employer of of the type that we thought we had buried in the 1970s? apprentices in Scotland is those firms that are currently And how many banks have signed up to it, anyway? engaged in building the aircraft carriers? Does he agree that all those apprenticeships, both for adults and for Ms Winterton: In terms of the venture capital funds youngsters, would be lost if the Conservatives carried that the Government have been supporting, we have forward their proposal to examine the break clauses of been getting help to small and medium-sized enterprises the contract on day one of any future Conservative in order to ensure that they can take advantage of the Government? recovery, when it comes, and develop new technologies and enterprises. Owing to the investment that we have Mr. Speaker: Order. I know that the Minister will put in, something like £1.5 billion has been given to 600 relate his remarks exclusively to the effect of the work of small and medium-sized enterprises to undertake such the sector skills councils. work. I know that the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) says that Kevin Brennan: Of course, Mr. Speaker. Sector skills “the words ‘industrial strategy’ send a slight shudder down my councils have a UK-wide responsibility in the defence spine,” industry and with regard to apprenticeships. I am proud but, if that type of help were not available in his of the fact that under this Government apprenticeship constituency, it would be very bad news for small and numbers have risen from 60,000 in 1997 to nearly 250,000 medium-sized enterprises. now. It would be a great danger if a Government committed to cutting public investment were to come in Mr. Robathan: That type of help is not available. I because that would impact on the number of apprentices. think that the expression is “all talk and no trousers,” because nothing has happened. Being a bit of an internet Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) wizard, I googled “national investment corporation” (Con): The important work of sector skills councils is just before I came into the Chamber, and interestingly inhibited by the Government’s emphasis on unelected the last reference to it was a press report on 9 December, regional authorities, and Ministers’ preoccupation with so that shows how much activity has been going on. the Train to Gain programme, which spends taxpayers’ Will the Minister now say that it was a scheme dreamt money funding training that people would fund themselves up by Peter and Gordon, over a brew, to a whiff of anyway. In confirming that the dead-weight costs of sulphur, and concentrate on helping businesses, not on Train to Gain may be more than 80 per cent., will the announcing great, grandiose schemes that go nowhere? Minister concede that he has finally listened to my complaints about this waste and so cut Train to Gain Ms Winterton: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman funding in the Budget and spend the money on understands at all the needs of small and medium-sized apprenticeships instead? enterprises at the moment. He does not acknowledge that in his region 627 loans have been offered to companies, Kevin Brennan: No, we will not do that. I am glad that totalling £67 million. His party would reduce—indeed, the hon. Gentleman has raised the issue of regional take away—all the assistance that we are giving to small development agencies, because his party’s policy of and medium-sized enterprise, and it is very sad that he abolishing those was described recently by the Engineering does not understand the importance of our strategy. Employers Federation as a disaster. I do not know about other hon. Members, but when engineers warn Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Would not me of impending disaster, I listen, and people should more money be available if everybody paid their taxes? listen carefully to that advice. A fella is getting away with £127 million, without paying his taxes, and he is running the Tory party. They talk about being the party of change. They are the party of National Investment Corporation money-changers, and we ought to—

6. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): On Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has expressed what date he plans to launch the national investment himself, but unfortunately the relationship with the corporation. [320197] national investment corporation is not merely tangential, it is non-existent. [Interruption.] We will leave it at that. 12. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): On what date he plans to launch the national investment Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): The most corporation. [320205] worrying threat to the future growth of the economy is the appalling decline in business investment. All we The Minister for Regional Economic Development and get from the Government is a series of grandiloquent Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): We are working to announcements or press releases from the Prime Minister set up a national investment corporation, alongside and the Industry Secretary. Does the right hon. Lady working with the banks to establish a growth capital recall replying to a question in December last year by fund. We will announce further details of both shortly. telling us: “Further details of the National Investment Corporation will Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Do the Government understand be announced by the time of the pre-Budget report.”—[Official that what firms want is lower taxes, fewer regulations, Report, 3 December 2009; Vol. 501, c. 987W.]? less red tape and the ability to borrow from their usual She will recall that nothing appeared in the pre-Budget bank, many of which the Government control, anyway, report. Will she admit that it was just another public so it should not be too difficult to ensure? What is the relations announcement, and that nothing substantial 1003 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1004 has been done to encourage the banks to return to employers that offer £2,500 to employers who offer providing normal lending, normal credit facilities and apprenticeship places to unemployed 16 and 17-year-olds. normal commercial services to small and medium-sized In the west midlands, the area which my hon. Friend businesses, in particular? represents, 790 employers have committed to recruit young people, including 31 employers in Coventry. Ms Winterton: It is astonishing that the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not accept that providing Mr. Cunningham: I thank my right hon. Friend for something like £1.5 billion of assistance in venture that answer. What discussions has he had with the capital funds to small and medium-sized enterprises is Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families to important. We know that he wants to abolish regional promote apprenticeships in schools? development agencies; and we know that he does not believe in intervening, because he said that “industrial Mr. McFadden: We want to promote apprenticeships strategy” sends a shudder down his spine. But I should in many sectors. We are making a particular effort to like to know how withdrawing investment allowances promote apprenticeships among unemployed 16 and from small and medium-sized businesses would help 17-year-olds; that is why we recently announced the whatever. Again, the Engineering Employers Federation apprenticeship grant for employers, which offers £2,500 said: to employers who offer an apprenticeship. It is urgent “Reducing the level of capital allowances would be a big that, in the difficult economic times that we have had, problem for manufacturers”. we avoid what happened in previous recessions, when The Opposition do not care about small and medium-sized young people were unable to find work and then sometimes enterprises, but we do. spent years, or decades, never having a job. We are determined to ensure that that does not happen this Queen’s Diamond Jubilee time. That is why we are putting so much effort into ensuring that young people have opportunities, and that 8. Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): What if they are out of work, that does not turn into long-term progress is being made in preparing for the Queen’s and sustained unemployment. diamond jubilee celebrations. [320200] Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): Can the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, explain why the apprenticeship grant for employers Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): Planning for Her began at the beginning of the calendar year instead of Majesty’s jubilee is still in its early stages. I made a at the beginning of the academic year, making it impractical statement to the House on that matter on 5 January. We for small businesses in my constituency, such as James are working closely with Buckingham palace, which is Holden’s business in Honeybourne, to access the scheme, developing a programme of events. However, it is too as to support his apprentice he needs him to be able to early to provide further details. access courses at South Worcestershire college alongside his apprenticeship? Mr. Pelling: Does the Minister agree that we would do well to follow the lead of the Secretary of State’s Mr. McFadden: We want to work with all parts of the grandfather by having a festival of Britain in 2012, economy to make this work for people, including employers when so many people will be coming to the UK for the and those parts of the education system that participate. Olympics? We could celebrate business talents, perhaps I think that this has worked well for the education a recovering economy and what we have to offer outside system. I simply contrast the numbers: a decade ago, we the financial sector in terms of manufacturing and had about 60,000 apprenticeships; last year, we had technology. some 240,000 apprenticeship starts. The truth is that we have brought back apprenticeships as a mainstream Ian Lucas: The great 1945 Labour Government made part of the labour market. They were in the intensive a very wise decision in instigating the festival of Britain, care ward when the Conservatives were in power, but and I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is offering they are now alive and well, and we are determined to positive suggestions about Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee. support them in the future. We are willing to listen to such suggestions from those in all parts of the House, because it is of course an Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): occasion that we must all celebrate. My right hon. Friend will be aware that there is a particular difficulty with skills levels in the west midlands, Apprenticeships (West Midlands) notwithstanding the welcome increase in the number of apprenticeships. One of the reasons for that is the 9. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): perception among young people that going into industry What recent steps he has taken to encourage businesses is a dirty job that is not worthy of their particular in Coventry and the west midlands to offer apprenticeships. talents. Will he undertake to work with employers and [320202] the educational system to try to change that culture to get young people with aspirations to use their talents The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat within their local companies and local industry? McFadden): We are taking a number of measures to encourage businesses to offer apprenticeships. The National Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Apprenticeship Service promotes and expands Our constituencies neighbour each other and are very apprenticeships. Spending has gone up from £832 million similar: they both have many high-quality engineering in 2007-08 to a planned £1.2 billion next year. In companies. He is right that despite the fact that these December, we announced an apprenticeship grant for are good jobs, and often quite well-paid jobs, young 1005 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1006 people are sometimes not attracted to them. One of the wish to see those days of instability return. We understand things that we have done is to work with the Engineering small businesses and engage with them, and we are Employers Federation to set up Manufacturing Insight, continuing to work to restore credit and investment in whose important job is to go into schools to ensure that industry. There are signs of positive steps forward and engineering is seen as an attractive occupation. Alongside we will continue with those as time passes. our policies on apprenticeships, I am sure that we can attract more young people to take up careers in Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): One of the problems manufacturing, because it is critical to the UK economy that small businesses in my constituency have with the and represents significant opportunities for them. banks is the operation of the enterprise guarantee scheme. Despite businesses meeting all the published criteria, the banks simply will not lend, often saying that businesses Business Credit are unviable because they have had a drop in profitability over the last year—hardly surprising in the midst of a 10. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What recession. Will the Minister look at the operation of the recent representations he has received on trends in scheme and put pressure on the banks to deal with availability to businesses of credit from banks. [320203] small businesses more equitably?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Ian Lucas: To date, more than £1.2 billion of eligible Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): The Department meets applications have been pursued through the enterprise regularly with both banks and business representatives finance guarantee from 10,738 companies, and £857 million to discuss the availability of business finance. This has has been offered to 8,378 businesses. That has meant included the quarterly meeting of the Small Business real help to those individual businesses. As I indicated Finance Forum and a recent “Going for Growth”seminar, to the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), which brought banks and businesses together to look at if hon. Members—on either side of the House—have current issues affecting business bank credit and how individual examples, I will work with them to help small they might evolve as the recovery of the economy business. progresses. John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Jo Swinson: The Federation of Small Businesses has (LD): As the economy starts to grow, the provision of found that nearly half of small businesses in Scotland credit for all business, especially small and medium-sized are having to use personal savings, personal loans or enterprises, will be vital as working capital. As my hon. personal credit cards as a major source of business Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire said, the finance. The Minister will know that the Public Accounts PAC has drawn attention to the fact that the nationalised Committee found that Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland banks have failed to meet their lending commitments. fell well short of their promises to lend £39 billion last Last week, the Institute of Directors published a survey year. Can the Minister tell the House what he will do that showed that 57 per cent. of those who had applied this year to get the banks lending and, at the very least, for credit were denied it. Worst of all, of that 57 per ensure that the part-nationalised banks meet their lending cent., 83 per cent. were not even offered information targets for small businesses? about the enterprise finance guarantee scheme. So the banks are failing to lend, United Kingdom Financial Ian Lucas: The Department has a help for business Investments Ltd is failing to do anything about it, and unit and, if the hon. Lady has individual examples with the enterprise finance guarantee scheme is also failing. which she needs assistance, we are happy to take those What will the Minister do about that catalogue of up and discuss individual cases directly with banks. We failure? are very conscious of the availability of lending and how important it is in taking forward the recovery. Ian Lucas: I have already recounted the figures on the There have been signs of progress in the last quarter, extent of the success of the enterprise finance guarantee but we will continue to engage with both banks and scheme—the money invested in businesses and the numbers small businesses to ensure that that recovery builds. of businesses that have benefited. We always wish to do more, and as the recovery gathers pace, we will continue John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): Is the Minister to engage with business and banks to ensure that the aware that the Bank of England’s report last month banks provide assistance to the economy as it grows. showed that the fall in bank lending in 2009 was the worst since records began, and that lending to business Higher Education crashed by a whopping £4.3 billion in December alone? Does he not remember the Chancellor’s words about 11. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): the Government’s bank rescue plans 18 months ago—as What steps he is taking to widen participation in higher far back as October 2008—when he said: education; and if he will make a statement. [320204] “The purpose of these proposals is to get lending started again”. —[Official Report, 8 October 2008; Vol. 480, c. 280.] The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual Given the latest figures, does the Minister not feel even Property (Mr. David Lammy): We reaffirmed our the faintest shred of embarrassment about the yawning commitment to wider and fairer access to higher education gulf between the rhetoric and the reality? in “Higher Ambitions”, published last November. The number of students going to university from lower Ian Lucas: What I do remember is that when I was socio-economic groups is rising, and almost 10,000 running a small business in 1992, interest rates increased more young people entered higher education in 2007-08 in a morning from 10 per cent. to 15 per cent. We do not than five years earlier. 1007 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1008

Greg Mulholland: I thank the Minister for that answer, Dr. Lewis: I thank the Minister for that reassuring but with graduates facing debts of more than £20,000 reply. The only problem with it is that, because the and with the debate about whether to raise the cap on Government have put off the comprehensive spending tuition fees to £7,000, I was pleased to sign the Leeds review, no one has any idea what sort of sum is being university union pledge against any such rises. Is it not ring-fenced. If it is not to be all show and no substance, time that the Government were clear about their policy will he indicate what sum is being ring-fenced, otherwise going into the election, and will he now be clear whether is it not nonsense to say that the ring fence will be he will oppose increasing the fee cap to £7,000—yes maintained? or no? Mr. Lammy: It is axiomatic that every area of Mr. Lammy: That is a little rich coming from the Government is subject to a spending review, which will Liberal Democrats, given that they have had five positions be determined after the Budget; that is obvious and on tuition fees since Christmas last year. Recently, there applies to every Department. I think that the question is was a policy change indicating that they would not asked and answered. phase out tuition fees in the next Parliament. The Government have been clear that we will not pre-empt Access to Credit an independent review. We have asked Lord Browne to look at access, and the position of students, parents and employers. I will take no lessons on tuition fees from the 16. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): flip-flop Lib Dems. What steps he is taking to increase the level of access to credit by small and medium-sized enterprises. [320210] Bank Lending (Businesses) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, 13. Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): What Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): We have a number of recent estimate he has made of trends in availability to targeted interventions working to ensure access to finance small and medium-sized enterprises of bank lending. for small and medium-sized businesses. I have already [320206] given the House figures concerning the enterprise finance guarantee, which is one example of those interventions. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): The majority of small Mr. Swayne: The statements from the Dispatch Box and medium-sized enterprises applying for finance continue are quite at variance with the experience of small businesses to receive the finance that they require. For businesses on the ground. Is it not clear that the second banking with a turnover of less than £1 million, the proportion bail-out failed in its attempt to extend bank lending to of applications that banks approved increased in the business? second half of 2009, and the average monthly approval rates for those businesses in the fourth quarter of 2009 Ian Lucas: The experience on the ground is that we were about 67 per cent. for loans and 72 per cent. for are seeing signs of increasing investment in business overdrafts. and of businesses beginning to recover as consumer demand develops. Consumer demand is extremely Mr. Amess: In the real world, many small and medium- important. That is why it is vital that we do not reach sized businesses in Southend, West are still suffering in the levels of unemployment in this country that we saw the current economic climate, and their situation is not on two occasions under the last Tory Government. being helped by the negative attitude of banks towards lending. A survey by the Federation of Small Businesses Euro (UK Membership) showed that only 1 per cent. of moneys is being got from Government finance, so will they now accept my 19. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What party’s proposal for a national guarantee scheme? recent representations he has received from businesses on UK membership of the euro. [320213] Ian Lucas: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I live in the real world too—in Wrexham—and I have small The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, businesses in my constituency as well. We all know that Innovation and Skills (Mr. Stephen Timms): The Department we have had an extremely difficult 18 months and the has received no such representations recently. most substantial global recession in living memory, but we are improving access to credit for businesses. We do Mr. Bone: I am amazed at that response from the not want a return to the up-and-down approach—and Minister. Is it not a fact that the floating of the pound the instability that came with it—taken by the Conservative and the depreciation of sterling have been enormously party when I ran a small business. useful to small businesses and manufacturers in this Science Budget country, making their goods cheaper abroad and making imports more expensive? Is it not great news that we still 14. Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Whether have the pound, and will the Government now give up his Department’s science budget will remain ring-fenced their policy of taking us into the euro? after 2011-12. [320207] Mr. Timms: The Government’s policy remains as it The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual was when it was set out by the previous Chancellor in a Property (Mr. David Lammy): The Government have no statement to the House in October 1997, and when the plans to alter the ring fence around the science and last assessment against the five tests was made in June research budget. 2003, when we said that 1009 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1010

“we cannot at this point in time conclude that there is sustainable employment or training. Will Ministers look at the idea and durable convergence or sufficient flexibility to cope with any of posting the apprenticeships that are available, either potential difficulties within the euro area.” by local authority area or by postcode, both to make The whole House will see exactly what we meant. them easier to access and to hold employers in the public and private sectors to account? Several hon. Members rose— Mr. McFadden: We have an online service to match Mr. Speaker: Order. Just as I called the hon. Member employers with young people seeking apprenticeships, for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) to ask Question 19, the and as I said a few minutes ago, in December we hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) came announced a programme of grants of £2,500 for employers into the Chamber. I want to err on the side of generosity; to take on unemployed 16 and 17-year-olds. I agree with therefore I call the hon. Gentleman. the hon. Gentleman: we do not want young people to become completely distant from the labour market because Insolvency Service of the economic troubles that we have been going through in the past couple of years. That is why 18. Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): apprenticeships are important, why the numbers have What steps he is taking to improve the performance of increased and why we have put in place the new grant the Insolvency Service. [320212] specifically for unemployed 16 and 17-year-olds.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, T2. [320218] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): I meet regularly with Please could the Minister comment on the negotiations the chief executive of the Insolvency Service to discuss between Royal Mail and the Communication Workers the agency’s performance and measures to improve it. I Union? also agree the targets for the agency’s performance, which are set after discussions with an external steering Mr. McFadden: The negotiations have been taking board of industry experts. I ensure that the service is set place on an intense level since the turn of the year. They goals that, although achievable, are challenging. are chaired by Mr. Roger Poole, the former deputy general secretary of the Unison union, and I believe Mr. Sheerman: You are very generous, Mr. Speaker. that he has the trust of both sides. The aim of the Will my hon. Friend take on board the fact that for negotiations is to reach a comprehensive agreement many small businesses the system for individual governing all the modernisation and change that needs bankruptcies is cruel and punitive? Big consultancy to take place to put Royal Mail on a healthier footing. firms such as PricewaterhouseCoopers charge £200 an We are not yet at the point of agreement, but I hope hour; indeed, a constituent was charged £800 for a letter that we will be, and I very much hope that the talks will to be answered. What is going wrong when these big be successful, because that will be in the interests of companies can leech money from small people? Royal Mail, its staff and, most importantly, the public who depend on the postal service. Ian Lucas: My hon. Friend makes an important point. An important part of the Government’s approach Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Have Ministers is to develop alternatives to formal bankruptcy procedures, noticed the report in this morning’s Financial Times through debt management plans and debt relief orders. that the chemicals company Ineos, the largest private We intend to offer a range of help to individuals and firm in this country by sales, has joined the queue of businesses, to enable them to avoid the formal procedures companies intending to move their headquarters out of for insolvency, if at all possible. the United Kingdom, citing levels of corporate and personal tax? Are Ministers also aware that, in the Topical Questions Davos world economic forum league of competitors, the United Kingdom has now slipped to 81st in the T1. [320217] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and world in terms of its tax levels? Will the Minister make Bermondsey) (LD): If he will make a statement on his representations to the Chancellor that he should follow departmental responsibilities. the Conservatives’ recommendations on lowering levels of corporation tax? Will he also tell the Chancellor that The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat the choice of national insurance as a source of revenue McFadden): Our Department’s key task is to work with in 2011 is particularly disastrous when we are supposed business to help secure recovery from the global recession. to be trying to come out of a recession? To do that we have put in place a strategic investment fund designed to support key areas such as low-carbon Mr. McFadden: I regret the Ineos decision, but I must industries, the digital economy and advanced point out that our corporation taxes are lower now than manufacturing; strong regional development agencies, when we came into office; they are the lowest in the G7. working with business in the regions; and tax support The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me whether for industry in the form of capital allowances to support I would approach the Chancellor and ask him to support investment. We are not about to withdraw £3.5 billion the policy that his party has advocated. Just a few days of support for industry through reforms to capital ago, his colleague, the shadow Chancellor, said that that allowances, as advanced by the Conservative party. policy would involve the withdrawal of £3.5 billion of support for investment allowances for manufacturing Simon Hughes: I know that the Government are also industry. That is absolutely not what our industry needs committed to more apprenticeships. There are still tens at the moment, and, combined with the Conservatives’ of thousands of young people who are not in education, policy to abolish the regional development agencies and 1011 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1012 to attack the strategic investment fund, it would represent my right hon. Friend for East Ham (Mr. Timms) said in a real threat to British industry. That is not what we response to an earlier question, the vast majority—more want at the moment; we should support industry through than 90 per cent., I think—of the bills in my Department the investment allowances and through strong RDAs are paid within the target date. That is important because working with— small businesses rely on prompt payment. That is why we have taken it seriously during the recession. Mr. Speaker: Order. T5. [320221] Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): T3. [320219] Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) Despite Government assurances to the contrary, all the (Lab): What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to evidence on the ground in Essex is that companies ensure that fast, easy broadband access is enjoyed by cannot secure credit from banks or are having their everyone in the UK, especially those people who live credit conditions tightened. A recent IOD survey, as and work from home in rural areas such as North-East mentioned previously, confirmed that. Why are the Derbyshire? Government incapable of sorting this out, particularly when they are a major shareholder in some of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, banks concerned? Innovation and Skills (Mr. Stephen Timms): My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise that matter. I am The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, announcing today the formation of Broadband Delivery Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): It is simply not the UK, and the appointment of its chief executive, Adrian case that the Government are failing to take action to Kamellard, to drive forward the universal service support small business. It is very important to increase commitment to deliver 2 megabits per second broadband the levels of consumer demand within the economy to to every UK household by 2012, and to manage the increase the demand for small business. That is why we £1 billion next generation fund, which will result from must focus on unemployment levels and also support the proceeds of the 50p a month phone line levy, to business by extending assistance through Her Majesty’s deliver next generation broadband to 90 per cent. of the Revenue and Customs by delaying payment. If we had country by 2017. My hon. Friend is right to highlight followed the policy of the Conservatives, none of that the importance of this service in rural areas. Virgin assistance would have been available because the money Media recently made the welcome announcement of would not have been there to assist businesses in their 100 megabit per second services across its whole network time of need. by the end of the year, which will be available to almost half of UK homes. That reflects current demand, and Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): What we need to get a move on in delivering such services in assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the impact rural areas as well. of the investment in science on the recovery and also on the transfer into small business in the community? T4. [320220] Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) (Con): Listening to the answers given by the Mr. McFadden: Some years ago, there was a campaign Ministers today, I have to say that I just cannot believe called Save British Science. It is no longer necessary the complacency of this Government. Week after week, because we have invested so much extra in science. We representatives of small businesses come to my value the contribution that science can make. We are a constituency surgeries and tell me that they hear the world leader: we have 1 per cent. of the world’s population, Government’s rhetoric, yet every time they go to the but 12 per cent. of the world’s scientific citations. That bank, they cannot get the credit that they are promised. is a testament to the success of British science, which When will the Government stop making promises and the Government have strongly supported. My hon. start delivering for the people of Milton Keynes? Friend is absolutely right not only that pure science is good in itself, but that the potential for spin-offs between Mr. McFadden: We have outlined the support that we the scientific research councils, higher education and have put in place. Some 160,000 businesses have been companies is now enormous. We are seeing increasing helped by the time to pay initiative, which has allowed success in this. businesses large and small to delay payment of a total of £5 billion in tax, to help them through the recession. T6. [320222] Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Some 8,000 businesses have been helped through the The renewable heat incentive enjoys support in principle enterprise finance guarantee scheme. I have to say to the on both sides of the House. However, an unintended hon. Gentleman that small businesses in his constituency consequence might be to make the oil refining industry would not be helped by his shadow Chancellor’s policy absolutely uncompetitive. The great oil refinery at Fawley to abolish the £50,000 investment allowance that exists in my constituency would see its margins completely under this Government. wiped out if this levy is imposed on it. As it applies only to Britain, it adversely affects its competitiveness. What T8. [320224] Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) reassurances can the Minister give to the greatest oil (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend look at the concerns refinery in the country? of small businesses about the payment by Government Departments for work that has already been done? Mr. McFadden: The assurance I give the hon. Gentleman is that I will make sure that his point is relayed to the Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to Department of Energy and Climate Change and the stress that prompt payment is important. The Government Treasury. It would probably be wise for me not to should be a good customer and the Prime Minister has comment in any more detail on his question at this placed a great emphasis on that. As the Under-Secretary, point. 1013 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1014

Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): Some of my Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West and Penistone) constituents work for the engineering company, Firth (Lab): The Minister will be aware that the motor sport Rixson, in Darley Dale, one of only three plants in the industry in the UK is a world leader. However, it is world making rings for aeroplane jet engines. Will my 10 years since the Government commissioned any research right hon. Friend use his good offices to help resolve its on the industry. Will he consider an up-to-date survey dispute with Tory-controlled Derbyshire Dales council? to ensure that the UK keeps its lead in the motor sport It has put in place a noise abatement order that could industry? close down the company, which has been there for 70 years and employs 160 people. Ian Lucas: Yesterday, I returned from the Geneva motor show, where I met superb British companies such Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend draws attention to as Lotus that are making excellent, innovative, world-beating the UK’s strength in aerospace—not only in her progress in their part of the industry. The world renowned constituency, but in many others, too. Aerospace is one UK Automotive Council is leading our approach to sector that has been strongly supported by the strategic investment and research in the automotive sector, of investment fund that we have set up. Sadly, that support which the automotive sport sector is an important part. has been described as disgraceful by Conservative Members, but we believe that it is valuable and important. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Does T7. [320223] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): the Department accept that manufacturing industry is During these tough economic times, what is the the only source of non-inflationary, sustainable economic Minister doing to support traditional English market growth, and that, in bank lending, priority should be towns, such as my own of Romford? given in all cases to manufacturing industry?

Mr. McFadden: Traditional English market towns are Mr. McFadden: I share entirely the hon. Gentleman’s very important for the economy. A couple of years ago, support for manufacturing. With my constituency when the west midlands suffered floods, the regional being Wolverhampton, South-East, I see the value of development agency’s marketing of the area was important manufacturing day in, day out. It is therefore important in saying that we were open for business. That is why the to support investment in manufacturing through the tax hon. Gentleman’s party’s policy of abolishing RDAs system. I hope that he will make representations to would be so damaging to the market towns that he those on his Front Bench that they should desist from supports. their policy of withdrawing £3.5 billion of tax support for investment in manufacturing— T10. [320226] John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): My right hon. Friend will be aware that Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland cardholders Mr. Speaker: Order. We have had that point before. are unable to use their cards at the people’s bank. When will we make the people’s bank exactly that—a bank Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): But on that for all the people—and make those companies in which point, has the Minister seen the front page of today’s we have invested a lot of money allow their customers Libération, which refers to the sickness of French industry to use their cards in that way? under a Conservative Government and contrasts that with the more robust health of British manufacturing Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend raises a similar point industry? Does it help our firms to have the shadow to that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Chancellor and shadow Business Secretary touring meetings Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) a few and studios talking down the British economy? minutes ago. He is right that accessibility for account holders of other banks is important to the future of the Ian Lucas: In Geneva, I met a French manufacturing Post Office. Some banks have stepped up to the plate company that is considering investment in the UK and ensured that, and some 20 million accounts are because it recognises the UK Government’s commitment available in that way. I agree with my hon. Friend the to innovation, manufacturing and industry—a commitment Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) sadly lacking from the Conservative party. that more should do the same, and I assure him that we are working on that with other banks. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Is the Minister aware of the excellent work of the staff at Telford T9. [320225] John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): In Birmingham, far too often companies such as college of arts and technology, who do a great job LDV have gone into administration and ended with no providing skills and training for the long-term unemployed? jobs and a fire sale of the assets. Have the Government Is he aware that the Skills Funding Agency is seeking to looked into a review of chapter 11 so that when a reduce next year’s budget, despite unemployment in the company gets into difficulty it can come out with a west midlands being at record levels? Will he intervene business and jobs remaining? to ensure that funding is forthcoming to help those who are on the dole? Ian Lucas: We have introduced to our insolvency system several different alternatives to formal insolvency The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and bankruptcy proceedings, such as debt management and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): Overall funding plans and debt relief orders. The range of options now for the sector will increase by about 3 per cent. next being put forward by the Government are an effective year. I shall be happy to look into the individual case of way to deal with problems for individuals and businesses the college to which the hon. Gentleman has referred if that enter financial difficulties. there is anything untoward, but I should point out that 1015 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 1016 we have invested in further education, and it would not shall be happy to discuss any problems with my colleagues help if we had to make an extra £1 billion of cuts this in the Department for Children, Schools and Families. year. Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): Next week the board Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): As of the Payments Council, which represents all the major the Minister will know, the science learning centres at high street banks, will meet to rubber-stamp its decision York university and in nine university towns in the to phase out the use of the cheque, despite the opposition regions are the result of a magnificent effort by the of the Federation of Small Businesses and many other Government, with the Wellcome Trust. However, they groups. Will the Minister, even at this late stage, make will not work unless teachers are able and willing to go representations to the board and ask for a rethink? to them for their courses in CPD—continuing professional Mr. McFadden: I have made this confession before: I development—and they need funds if they are to do so. am a cheque user. I do not know whether that makes me a luddite, but I believe that cheques still provide people The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual with a valuable payment mechanism, and I hope that Property (Mr. David Lammy): I recognise the need for the banks will think long and hard before abolishing teachers to be able to gain access to those courses. I them. 1017 4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1018

Business of the House were not enough to save them from defeat by one vote. He was a man of great courage, courtesy and integrity, and from these Benches we salute him. 11.36 am I note that although the Leader of the House said Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): that later we would debate motions relating to the May I ask the Leader of the House to give us the Procedure Committee’s report on the election of the business for next week? Speaker and the Deputy Speakers, only one of those motions appears on today’s Order Paper. What has The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet happened to the others, and when will they be debated? Harman): The business for next week will be as follows. May we have a statement from the Justice Secretary MONDAY 8MARCH—Remaining stages of the Crime on the decision to return one of the killers of Jamie and Security Bill. Bulger to jail? Does the Leader of the House agree with TUESDAY 9MARCH—Opposition Day (5th Allotted me—and, apparently, the Home Secretary—that unless Day). There will be a debate on NHS London, followed there are very good reasons for keeping the information by a debate on access to higher education. Both debates secret, it is in the public interest to know why Jon will arise on an Opposition motion. Venables has been sent back to prison? WEDNESDAY 10 MARCH—Estimates Day (2nd Allotted Last week I was rebuffed by the right hon. and Day). There will be a debate on alcohol, followed by a learned Lady when I asked for two days on Report for debate on taxes— the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. As I predicted, the Bill has now been sent to the other place Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): Taxes or taxis? with many groups of amendments not debated. Given that the Bill will not receive its Second Reading in the Ms Harman: Taxes—and charges on road users. Details Lords until 24 March, what hope does she have that the will be given in the Official Report. Government’s flagship constitutional Bill will make it [The details are as follows: on to the statute book before the election? Standing Order 54(1) makes provision for three days Can we have a debate on the devastating report from in each session to be allotted for the consideration of the Public Accounts Committee today on the establishment estimates. This is the second such day. of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission? Given that the right hon. and learned Lady was responsible The Liaison Committee recommended that various for this, I hope she will find the time to explain the estimates be considered and under Standing Order 145 situation to the House. recommended that the following Select Committee reports be debated: Last week, the right hon. and learned Lady gave what she called a “strong hint” that next week’s topical Department of Health in so far as it relates to alcohol: debate would be on international women’s day. Does 1st Report from the Health Committee, HC 151.] not she think it somewhat illogical to announce a topical At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding debate two weeks in advance, and is she not in fact estimates. using a topical debate to escape from the Government’s THURSDAY 11 MARCH—A topical debate on International commitment to give the House one set-piece debate on Women’s Day—Women’s Representation, followed by this subject? proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) On timings, can the right hon. and learned Lady Bill, followed by Second Reading of the Northern Ireland explain why the business in the Lords up until 26 March Assembly Members Bill [Lords]. has been announced and published on the internet, but FRIDAY 12 MARCH—Private Members’ Bills. today she has given us the business only until 15 March? The provisional business for the week commencing It would be unfortunate if the business question were 15 March will include: added to that long list of questions the Government are unable to answer. MONDAY 15 MARCH—General debate on defence in the world. On the date of the Budget, the Prime Minister’s spokesman said on Tuesday that it would be announced Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. and “if there is to be a Budget.” learned Lady. Will the right hon. and learned Lady clarify whether May I begin by adding my own voice to the many there will be a Budget, or have relations between the tributes that have been paid to Michael Foot? He was a Prime Minister and his Chancellor now rendered that former Leader of the House, and one of our greatest impossible? parliamentarians. I remember him as the man whose Finally, can the right hon. and learned Lady give us brief it was, during my second Parliament, to hold the dates of the Easter recess? Last week the Leader of together a legislative programme in a Government with the House of Lords said that there were four and a half no majority, which he handled with tact and ingenuity— weeks before the Easter recess. If the Leader of the although one day he had to introduce five guillotine Lords can announce it in another place, why cannot motions. As an orator, he was one of the few who could MPs be told—or are we second-class citizens? fill the Chamber. He was a brilliant and at times unpredictable force, instilling terror in his civil servants Ms Harman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his by speaking on industrial relations legislation without tribute to Michael Foot, who was, as he said, a great notes for 30 minutes, and, equally memorably, winding parliamentarian, orator and Leader of the House between up the motion of no confidence in the Labour Government 1976 and 1979. He was a passionate socialist. Everyone in 1979. On that occasion, even his flights of rhetoric has commented that he was not only incredibly clever, 1019 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1020 but highly principled. I have very warm personal memories current Rural Advocate is Dr. Stuart Burgess, and his of him joining me in my by-election campaign in 1982. post is important because each year he can send a He went down a storm on the Walworth road, where he report about what is happening in our rural areas is fondly remembered to this day. We all miss him. His directly to the Prime Minister. He has done so today, intelligence and commitment remained sharp right up and he has pointed out that, as a consequence of rural until his death. areas having no services, phones, internet or transport, On the motions relating to the Deputy Speaker and they are losing young people, who are finding that they Speaker, I have made it clear that Mr. Speaker has asked have to move away in order to have any hope of getting that we look into having elections for Deputy Speakers. jobs. In rural areas, 40 per cent. of those aged between I have made that undertaking and we can debate the 16 and 24 are unemployed. I want to know what happens motions on that subject this afternoon. to these reports once they have gone to the Prime Minister, because I do not hear the Prime Minister On the killers of Jamie Bulger, the court order requires talking about rural issues. I would like this House to do anonymity and the processes have to be in compliance so, however, so may we have a debate on rural issues in with that order. the near future? If the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill I have just listened to Business, Innovation and Skills goes into the wash-up and does not complete its stages questions, and there is clearly great concern about the in the House of Lords, it will be for the Opposition difficulties facing small businesses and the opportunities parties to negotiate with the Government so that we can open to them, so may we have a debate on small get through a great deal of what was in the Bill, much of businesses? We might include in it a discussion of the which arose out of the Kelly proposals and pertain to future of the cheque book—a subject raised by my hon. the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter)—because There are many things in the Bill that the House wants that issue also means a great deal to small businesses. to see get through. If the Bill cannot find its way I note that there will be a debate on alcohol on through the Lords, we will make sure at the wash-up 10 March, and hon. Members rightly feel very strongly that the provisions that the public want get through. about alcohol abuse. Some would argue that there is a The right hon. Gentleman asked about the Equality case for hugely increasing the duty payable on alcohol, and Human Rights Commission. That subject could be but may I ask—this is special pleading on behalf of my raised during the debate next week on international constituency—that artisan cider-makers are not forgotten women’s day. As it turns out, I was correct in anticipating in any such discussion, because they will be put out of that that would be a topical debate; it is going to be business if there is a substantial increase in alcohol topical. duty? Perhaps we could address that issue in our debate. On the business of the House, I announce the business Yesterday during Prime Minister’s Question Time, for the following week each Thursday; that is all I do. the Leader of the House managed to cause a great deal [Interruption.] No, anything after that is provisional. of excitement in the House every time she mentioned a The business for next week is firm, so hon. Members certain Member of another place, which she did with can be clear and know what they are doing next week, great frequency. May I suggest today—in a rather quieter, but after that it is only provisional. more sensible and less hyperbolic way—that the issues The Leader of the House—[Interruption.] Oh dear, I to do with that have been conflated? There are, in fact, am going to have to get this right: the shadow Leader of two issues, one of which is the quite extraordinary sums the House made a point about the relations between the of money being given to political parties and then being Prime Minister and the Chancellor. I would like to raise spent in marginal constituencies. We have yet to grapple a point about the relations between the shadow Leader effectively with that issue, so may we have a debate of the House and his party leader, however, because on it? how on earth is he still prepared to serve under a leader The second issue is to do with appointments to this of his party who, when he spoke the truth about Lord Parliament: commitments that are given, the way in Ashcroft’s tax status— which people are appointed to the House of Lords, and the proper principle that people should not make laws Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask the Leader of the for this country if they do not pay taxes in this country. House to focus her remarks exclusively on the business Can we have a separate debate on that? Perhaps we for next week. [Interruption.] As she is indicating that could tighten things up so that we do not have, as The she has finished her answer, I call the hon. Member for Daily Telegraph put it today, the shadow Foreign Secretary Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). being “kept in the dark…for 10 years”. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The That is not the right way to manage a commitment entire Government are sounding a little provisional at given. the moment. The shadow Leader of the House said that he had May I join in the tributes to Michael Foot? He was a been “rebuffed” on an issue. I was not rebuffed but member of a west-country radical family of some note, ignored by the Leader of the House last week when and was of a political age when it was felt important I raised what I thought was a perfectly proper matter. I that Members of Parliament might have read a few am referring to one of the Prime Minister’s ideas, which books, as well as be able to grin inanely at a camera. He he set out in the “Governance of Britain” Green Paper will be remembered with great affection. as follows: “The Government believes that the convention should be We get used to people being appointed tsar of this changed so that the Prime Minister is required to seek the and champion of that, but we actually have a rather approval of the House of Commons before asking the Monarch important post of that kind: the Rural Advocate. The for a dissolution.” 1021 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1022

[Mr. David Heath] this. I am entitled to answer that question and I am entitled to put forward my views. I hope that when the I am sure the Prime Minister would not say that if he Select Committee holds its investigation it will call the did not mean it, and he would not mean it and then not shadow Foreign Secretary, and I hope he will be more do anything to bring it into effect, so when are we going honest and forthcoming with the Committee than he to have the debate? When is the Leader of the House has been over the past eight years. going to table the motion? When are we going to have the vote for the dissolution of this pretty awful Parliament? Several hon. Members rose— Mr. Speaker: Order. A particularly large number of Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman raised the question Members—more than 40—are seeking to catch my eye of the Rural Advocate. Department for Communities today. The record shows over a period of many months and Local Government questions will take place next that ordinarily I have sought to accommodate and been week, at which he will have the opportunity, if he so successful in accommodating everybody. I would like to wishes, to raise the question of housing. It is very be so again, but I think that it is extremely unlikely important to have affordable housing in rural areas, and when more than 40 Members wish to contribute. The it is important that planning authorities—not just Tory requirement for short questions and short answers is councils, but Lib Dem councils—ensure that they allow greater than ever. I call Celia Barlow. the planning of housing only if it includes affordable housing. Everybody should look closely at their own Ms Celia Barlow (Hove) (Lab): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. party’s policies on that. My Tory opponent in Hove and Portslade has boasted The hon. Gentleman will recognise that we have in Brighton’s The Argus that: pressed forward on good health provision in, and on “We are on the target list. Lord Ashcroft is a supporter of improving education in, rural areas, and that one of the target seats”. reasons why we brought forward our “Digital Britain” In addition to the Select Committee investigation, will paper was precisely to ensure that enterprise and economic the Government carry out an investigation and report, initiative can go into rural areas, with high-speed broadband so that Members with marginal seats can work out covering all areas. So there are further opportunities to exactly how much of the £15 million of central American debate that issue. money has been spent in each seat? On small businesses, we have, as the hon. Gentleman said, just had Department for Business, Innovation and Mr. Speaker: I did not hear a request for a debate or a Skills questions. He will have an opportunity to raise statement, but I assume that the hon. Lady is asking for the issue of artisan cider-makers again in next week’s one. I call the Leader of the House. debate about alcohol. Ms Harman: I think that what my hon. Friend has The hon. Gentleman asked me to be less hyperbolic shown is that there is deep disquiet about this—about about the question of Ashcroft—[HON.MEMBERS: “Lord.”] the fact that the Conservative party has completely He asked me to be less hyperbolic about Lord Ashcroft sacrificed its integrity for money and is trying to buy and his breach of his assurances on tax. May I say, seats with the Belize dollar. I think we are entitled to Mr. Speaker, that I welcome the decision announced feel that that is not acceptable. this morning by the Public Administration Committee that it will carry out an inquiry into this matter? I am Sir Peter Tapsell: Whatever the strength of views of afraid that I cannot offer to tone down my views on the Leader of the House on any particular issue, does this, because the truth is that this is sleaze on a multi-million she not accept that, as the Leader of the House, she has pound scale and the— a particular duty to observe the long-standing conventions of the House, and that one does not accuse another Mr. Speaker: Order. I absolutely understand that the Member—either of this House or of another House—of right hon. and learned Lady does not want, in any way, an offence where, if the accusation were made outside to qualify or compromise her views, but I should make this House, it would undoubtedly lead to an action for two points. First, we are making references to a Member slander? Will she take this opportunity to withdraw the of another place and that has to be done with considerable allegation that she made against the noble Lord? care. Secondly, from now on—the right hon. and learned Lady has said what she has said—we must focus our Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman entered the remarks on the business of the House. House first in 1959 and has served without interruption in his present constituency since 1966, so he will know Ms Harman: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is the business of that business questions is the occasion to ask a question the House when a Select Committee— requesting either a statement or a debate the following week. That did not quite happen, but if the Leader of the House wants—[Interruption.] Order. I require no Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): On a help from Back-Bench Members. If the Leader of the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it an acceptable— House wants briefly to respond to what has been asked, that is fine but thereafter I would ask that we move on Mr. Speaker: Order. We take points of order after and, in particular, that questions and answers relate to statements. I call the Leader of the House. the business of the House next week. Ms Harman: The hon. Member for Somerton and Ms Harman: Questions on the business of the House Frome (Mr. Heath)—[HON.MEMBERS: “Withdraw it.”] is also an occasion to discuss what is going on in the No, I am not going to withdraw it. The hon. Member House of Lords and in Select Committees—I am sure for Somerton and Frome asked me a question about you would acknowledge that, Mr. Speaker. This morning, 1023 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1024 the Public Administration Committee announced that Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): The it is going to look into this issue. I have not said teaching of English as a foreign language is a vital anything in this House that I can say only in this House business activity in my constituency, but it is under under cover of parliamentary privilege—what I have threat because of proposed changes to visa rules, which said is fact. It is actually a fact that Lord Ashcroft was mean that students who want to upgrade their language only allowed to be in the House of Lords because he skills before going to university would have to return gave an assurance—that is, is it not, a fact? Is it not also home and apply for another visa to come back again. a fact that it is now clear that he broke that assurance? Can we debate this matter? Failing that, will my right That is a fact, and— hon. and learned Friend nudge her colleagues in the Home Office and ask them to rethink those proposals? Mr. Speaker: Order. Let me just say to the Leader of the House and to all Members of the House that Ms Harman: I will ask my colleagues in the Home criticism of Members of the other place should be on a Office to write to my hon. Friend about this matter. substantive motion. The points that have been made Obviously, foreign students are very important not only have been made extremely clearly, but I think it is for the revenue that they bring into this country but reasonable and proper for me now—[Interruption.] because they increase and foster our global connections, Order. It is reasonable and proper for me now to ask which are important for our trade in a globalised economy. hon., right hon. and right hon. and learned Members to However, we have to make sure that the visa system, focus on the business of the House next week. The particularly the student visa system, is not abused and Leader of the House has responded and I am grateful that people do not come here intending not to study but to her. to work and to be students only as a secondary activity. That has to be cleared up, and that is what the Home Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews (Medway) (Lab): In a Office is doing. busy week, will my right hon. and learned Friend find time for the Prime Minister to come to the House to Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Will the Leader make a statement on the principles of universal jurisdiction of the House make time for a debate on the scandalous and, in particular, to explain the serious and, indeed, amount of money being paid in medical negligence colossal error contained in the article that he wrote in claims across our country? I have requested such a today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph, where he maintains debate before, but it is vital, at this time, that we look that arrest warrants for crimes against humanity and into the scandalous amounts of money being paid, for war crimes may be obtained on the “slightest of which have totalled £250 million in London in the past evidence”? Nobody knows better than my right hon. three years. and learned Friend that a district judge must find a good prima facie case for such crimes, as indeed happened Ms Harman: If the hon. Gentleman, a member of his in the case of Tzipi Livni. This is an important issue, so family or one of his constituents were the victim of will she find time for such a statement? medical negligence and suffered as a result, they would Ms Harman: No one should be in any doubt about expect to be compensated for their pain, suffering and the fact that we remain strongly committed to the loss of earnings. The important thing is to improve universal jurisdiction for the enforcement of international patient safety. Certainly, if there is negligence, the NHS war crimes. The only question at issue is what the should settle to avoid paying high lawyers’ fees. I do not gateway to enforcement of those issues is and whether think that we can say that people should put up with they should be able to be enforced by a member of the medical negligence, which can cause terrible pain and public, or whether enforcement should be carried out suffering, and that it should not be compensated. The on the basis of a motion brought to the court by the answer is to improve patient safety, not to clamp down public prosecution service. Let no one be in any doubt on litigation. about the fact that we strongly support the universal Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): Having jurisdiction—the question is just about the gateway to spent a great deal of time trying to clean up Parliament—I its enforcement. am in favour of the reforms and changes that have Sir Michael Spicer (West Worcestershire) (Con): Why taken place—is it not important to have a statement has the Leader of the House not tabled for debate the early next week on the position regarding Lord Ashcroft, motion on the election of the Speaker? how he got his peerage, what promises were made on his behalf and what promises he made about paying UK Ms Harman: Because we are taking forward, in this tax in full? Could all the documentation on his peerage— afternoon’s business of the House, issues that were correspondence and the rest of it—be placed in the raised by the Select Committee on Reform of the House Library as quickly as possible? of Commons, which was chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). If we can Ms Harman: I think that everybody would like to see agree by the end of the day on the election of the Chairs the documentation relating to this matter. It is the and members of Select Committees and on a new responsibility of those who assert that he was given Committee of the whole House to agree not only Back- approval to go back on his assurance to put evidence in Bench business but Government business, and if we the public domain that that was the case. I will think can, in addition, improve the procedure for getting about whether there is some way of making a statement Deputy Speakers, we will have taken great steps forward. that will allow this issue to be aired in the House, but We changed the rules when we elected our Speaker, the problem is that this is not actually a matter for which was the first election by secret ballot, so we have government. The Government do not dictate who goes recently addressed that issue by introducing a new into the House of Lords: that was done through an procedure for electing the Speaker. independent process, but it involved assurances given 1025 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1026

[Ms Harman] Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): As my right hon. and learned Friend has mentioned, it by the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks is international women’s day on Monday 8 March. Will (Mr. Hague), who is now the shadow Foreign Secretary. she take that opportunity to make a statement about As I have said, a statement in the House is not needed the tremendous support that Labour Governments have for those who have the documentation to put it in the given since 1997 to women and hard-working families? public domain, which they have signally failed to do. Ms Harman: I will accept that suggestion. I know Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): May we that my hon. Friend is a champion of women in her have a debate on the effectiveness of youth intervention constituency and this country. We should all remember programmes such as the one in Teignmouth, which saw that it is international women’s day, and we currently a 40 per cent. reduction in antisocial behaviour? Perhaps have a very big opportunity to press forward the we could then get an explanation as to why the new establishment of the new UN women’s agency that will Tory county council has cut the funding for that programme. bring together the four parts of the UN that deal with women’s issues so that we will have a single UN women’s Ms Harman: That is a warning to people about what agency. That would be a great step forward this year. would happen if the Tories ever got back into government—we would see very important projects that Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): The Leader are important to local communities being cut. I thank of the House still has not satisfactorily explained why the hon. Gentleman for raising the issue of antisocial she has cherry-picked from the recommendations of the behaviour in business questions. No doubt, he can raise Procedure Committee on the election of the Speaker it in questions to the Department for Communities and and Deputy Speakers. Why are we being allowed to Local Government next week. However, I note that debate today only part of those recommendations, all antisocial behaviour orders, which I am afraid that his of which appear on the Order Paper, with the remaining party voted against, are also important in this area. matters in the remaining orders? Why did she table all the recommendations, but move only half of them above Lynda Waltho (Stourbridge) (Lab): Will my right the line cutting off matters for debate today? It seems to hon. and learned Friend consider scheduling a debate me that, by her actions, she has made an unanswerable on the effects of public service cuts on local communities? case for a House business committee, so that never As well as cutting meals on wheels, Tory-controlled again can this sort of gerrymandering take place. Dudley council voted on Monday night to cut children’s Ms Harman: I actually agree that there is an unanswerable services, including those for children with disabilities, case for a House business committee. That is why we and drug rehabilitation services. The Conservative party have tabled a motion that will lead to the establishment is always asking us to judge it on how it treats the most of such a committee, and that is why I will vote for the vulnerable and how it runs its councils, and such a amendment that would extend its remit to Government debate would allow us to make that judgment. business. We have had the process for electing the Speaker, and I hope that we will move forward to agree a similar Ms Harman: My hon. Friend raises important issues process for the election of Deputy Speakers. for people in her constituency and in Dudley—meals on wheels, children’s services and drug rehabilitation services. Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): The evidence coming forth from Conservative councils The Leader of the House has referred to next week’s is that the Conservatives just cannot be trusted with debate on the Transport Committee’s report “Taxes and vital public services. Indeed, they seek to use the undeniable charges on road users”. It is very important that a need to pay back the public deficit as an excuse to cut Treasury Minister as well as a Transport Minister is services. We would make sure that we paid back the present to answer questions on that report, yet the deficit by halving it over four years, but while protecting Treasury has refused that request. Does she share my front-line services. concern, and will she investigate this important matter?

Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): Many people Ms Harman: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s leadership feel that the Government’s slavish obedience of the of the Transport Committee, and to the very important United States has corroded and undermined the special work that it has undertaken. As far “Taxes and charges relationship. Can the Foreign Secretary make a statement on road users” is concerned, I am sure that the Transport to the House next week on the special relationship, Minister will be fully co-ordinated with the Treasury given the unwelcome intervention of Secretary of State when he or she comes to answer the debate next Wednesday Clinton, with whom he wishes to have a special relationship, and that they will be able to respond on behalf of the in the affairs of the United Kingdom regarding Argentina Government as a whole. and the Falkland Islands? Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde) (Con): The right hon. and Ms Harman: I do not think that the Foreign Secretary learned Lady will understand the importance of certainty needs to return to the House on this issue. He made the for the operation of financial markets but, in not responding position absolutely clear only this week regarding the to the question from my right hon. Friend the Member Falklands and the right to self-determination. There is for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) about no question about their remaining part of the United the Budget date, she has created more uncertainty about Kingdom. I made that clear yesterday, and he has made how the Government will deal with our record deficit. it clear this week that they will remain in charge of their With effectively only three weeks to the end of March, self-determination. There is no need to clarify the issue will she explain why she cannot tell us today when the because it is absolutely clear. Budget will take place? 1027 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1028

Ms Harman: It is my responsibility to announce the Ms Harman: The arrangements for the Speaker were business for next week, and the right hon. Gentleman changed recently, and I have brought forward motions will see that that does not include the Budget. He will to improve in a similar way the arrangements for getting just have to wait and see when it is announced in the the new Deputy Speakers. Those motions can be debated usual way. Meanwhile, the important thing is that we and voted on in the House this afternoon. get on with ensuring that we do not pull the plug on the economy, as would happen if his party were in government. Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): Can we have an We must continue to support the economy through early debate on the findings of Sir Roger Singleton public investment and active intervention, and by making when he finalises his report on the treatment of children sure that we do everything that we can to protect in madrassahs and other religious, part-time schools? people, and particularly the younger generation, from unemployment. Ms Harman: My hon. Friend will have an opportunity to ask those questions at next week’s Department for Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): May we have a Children, Schools and Families Question Time. I pay debate about companies that are deliberately and specifically tribute to her for the concern that she has shown for all set up as non-trading and loss-making, such as Bearwood the children in her constituency, including those who go Corporate Services Ltd? The debate could perhaps explore to madrassahs. whether our tax regime allows such company losses to be used to offset other tax liabilities that might be due Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) to the Exchequer. (Con): May I ask the Leader of the House whether we can have an early debate on the processes for re-electing Ms Harman: I will ask my right hon. Friend the Mr. Speaker? She will know that there are two motions, Chancellor, or perhaps it should be the Business Secretary, 69 and 74, in her name on today’s Order Paper. One is in to look into this. Obviously, we all want the maximum favour of the status quo, and the other is in favour of transparency, but that is clearly not the case with the the secret ballot used for electing the Chairmen and issue that my hon. Friend raises. members of Select Committees, and the Deputy Speakers. Why have we got two motions in the right hon. and Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): learned Lady’s name, and when will we be given the Labour and the Tories have thrown allegations about opportunity to speak and vote, and to determine the peerages at each other, and the police have conducted matter one way or another? their cash-for-peerages investigation in Parliament. Given all that, may we have a debate about when we will have Ms Harman: The substantive motion on the Order the fully elected second Chamber that this House has Paper for debate and voting on this afternoon is about voted for? At a stroke, it would end the allegations the election of Deputy Speakers. It will bring the about both Lords Paul and Ashcroft, and allow fully arrangements into line with those that we have agreed democratic parties such as the Scottish Nationalist party for the election of the Speaker. We have already changed to take part—if, of course, Scotland is not independent that process: indeed, our current Speaker was elected by before then. a ballot of all hon. Members. Mr. Richard Caborn (Sheffield, Central) (Lab): May I Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman will know that we ask my right hon. and learned Friend to make time have taken forward proposals to ensure that we have an available urgently next week to debate the Ashcroftgate elected House of Lords. Indeed, this House has voted affair? We are moving towards a general election, and to change our constitutional arrangements and have an allegations have been made that really need to be cleared elected House of Lords. I agree with him on that. up, as they go to the heart of our democracy. They also go to the heart of a political party that wants to become Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May we have an urgent the Government after the election. It is an important debate on matters that are before the Electoral Commission? matter, as I am now getting correspondence from There is concern that some issues of significant public constituents asking how a person can spend £120 million interest—such as the activities of people such as Lord and still not pay taxes in this country. Ashcroft in trying to influence the general election, and the illegal use of foreign money to finance political Ms Harman: Once again, I will give consideration to parties—might not be reported on until after the general the point that my right hon. Friend makes. There is election. A debate would give us an opportunity to clearly a desire in the House to understand what has stress to the Electoral Commission that these matters gone on, and he is right to say that the affair affects are in the public interest and should be reported on both our democracy and public trust in it. On Sunday, before the general election. the Leader of the Opposition said that he was in favour of transparency, but we discovered on Monday that we Ms Harman: There will be an opportunity to put have had nine years of smokescreen and secrecy. On questions about the Electoral Commission at oral questions Sunday, he said that he was in favour of new politics, on Thursday 11 March. but on Monday we discovered that this was the same old sleaze from the Tories. Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): When will the Leader of the House allow the House to vote on the Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): The Leader Procedure Committee’s recommendation that the House of the House will share my concern at reports from must decide whether the Speaker is re-elected by secret service charities and in the press about the plight of ballot? ex-Gurkhas. Apparently, they are being offered spurious 1029 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1030

[Dr. Andrew Murrison] will not use that again, but it is clear that we now have a serious problem, because what I raised 10 years ago has money advice by unscrupulous organisations in turned out to be true, but now the real question is the Kathmandu, even though the same service is available dissembling and cover-up of leaders of the Conservative free from the Gurkha Settlement Office. Can we have an party, which deeply shame our democratic parliamentary urgent debate on the matter, and will she raise it urgently proceedings. with her colleague the Defence Secretary? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the House, I Ms Harman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising know, will relate her reply to whether there is a forthcoming the matter. I will raise it with the Defence Secretary and statement or debate, or a parliamentary reference of with Ministers from the Foreign and Commonwealth some sort. Office, to make sure that information is given to people so that they are not exploited. Ms Harman: Once again, there is evident concern. There are questions to be answered that pertain to our Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): In the last democracy. They are not to be answered by the Session, I introduced a private Member’s Bill on financial Government. The Select Committee investigation will disclosure. It demands that anyone standing for election be important, but I will think whether there is any way or placement in another place must provide full financial in which we can assist light being shed, because there disclosure, including tax returns. Is that a Bill that the are genuine concerns and fears. Government might like to introduce, as a matter of urgency, so that we can clean up the mess that we are Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Is the currently in? Leader of the House ashamed of herself for the dissembling way in which she has answered questions about the Ms Harman: Again, my hon. Friend raises a very election of the Speaker following the return of Parliament? important point, and the Government will have to She has tabled motion 69 in her name, which is not yet reflect on it. The assumption has always been that available to be debated in the House. Can she assure the people would play fair and by the rules, with everyone House that she will not withdraw— working to shore up confidence and trust in our democracy. I agree that we need to restore confidence: the background Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to the matter is our deep concern about the money—the to withdraw the word “dissembling”. I have a matter of tens of millions of pounds—that should have gone to seconds ago indicated to the House that we should have pay taxes, but which has gone to the Conservative party seemly exchanges. That word in this context is not instead. seemly. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it and to complete his question in parliamentary language. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a debate [Interruption.] Order. That is the request, and I expect on the desirability or otherwise of positive discrimination it to be honoured. in the workplace? During that debate perhaps the Leader of the House will explain why she is so in favour of Mr. Chope: I am saying to you, Mr. Speaker, that, all-women shortlists in every single constituency around obviously, if you say that the word “dissembling” is the country, apart from when her husband is seeking non-parliamentary, I will withdraw it, but it does not selection, and whether she considers that to be sleaze. alter the substance of my question to the Leader of the House. She has put down motion 69 calling for the Ms Harman: Even I am not in favour of 100 per cent. re-election of the Speaker at the beginning of the Parliament all-women shortlists, although when I see the hon. to be with a secret ballot. She is now saying that she has Gentleman it tempts me to think that I might be mistaken. no proposals to debate that or to allow a vote on it. Is Unlike the Conservative party, more than half our she now proposing to withdraw motion 69 from the shortlists are all-women—more than half. With regard Order Paper so that we are deprived of the opportunity to the fewer than half of shortlists that are open shortlists, of voting on the first report of the Procedure Committee? anyone can apply, both women and men. Indeed, women If not, what will she do about it. have been chosen from some of the open shortlists that we have had. Ms Harman: The motions on the Order Paper and the amendments to those motions that are for debate Mr. Speaker: Order. I was probably over-generous in and decision this afternoon arise from the Wright report. allowing the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) If we can get on with agreeing not only the election of to ask that question, which did not obviously relate to Deputy Speakers, but the election of Chairs of Select the business of the House next week. There have been Committees, the election of members of Select Committees accusations and counter-accusations of sleaze. I really and a new House Committee to decide Back-Bench and think that it would be for the benefit of the House and non-Government business, we will have done a good our reputation with the electorate if we were to move on days’ work. from those matters. Talking about unparliamentary language, I could hear somebody behind me—I think that it might have Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): May we been my Parliamentary Private Secretary—saying “He’s have an urgent debate next week on parliamentary Chopeless.” I wonder whether that is unparliamentary. language? The Clerks, one of whom I think was present, will confirm to you, Mr. Speaker, that 10 years ago, Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will your predecessor but one accepted as parliamentary my right hon. and learned Friend accept from me that I language my adumbration to Lord Sleaze of Belize. I would like a debate on Lord Paul? I have been a friend 1031 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1032 of his and an admirer of what he has done for British Ms Harman: I know that the matter that the hon. business and manufacturing for many years. He has Gentleman raises is wider than just housing—he has never sought control of the Labour party or influence mentioned schools, transport, health services and the in marginal seats. I would be happy to see a debate on a economy—but there will be an opportunity to raise motion comparing Lord Paul with Lord Ashcroft, because the question of housing at Communities and Local I think that he would come out damned well. Government questions next week. One thing that has been important for the rural economy is the minimum Ms Harman: There is, of course, absolutely no wage, which his party opposed, and one thing that is comparison. As I understand it, Lord Ashcroft was a important for the rural economy is the opportunity for British citizen, who—I will be corrected if I am wrong—left people to have affordable housing, and it is often the country for tax purposes, whereas Lord Paul is an Conservative councils that oppose planning applications industrialist from India who has genuinely global financial for affordable housing by housing associations. interests, who has never made any dissemblance about his tax status and who never gave any assurances. The Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): Will my point about Lord Ashcroft is that he gave assurances in right hon. and learned Friend look again at the request order to get into the House of Lords and then breached for an early debate on the role of the Electoral Commission? those assurances. If the public are to retain faith in the probity of our electoral system, we need the Electoral Commission to Mr. Speaker: Order. We must not go further on these come under pressure to answer the questions about matters. There has been a request for a debate or a whether filtering central American money into political statement. That request has been answered. We move parties in this country is legitimate, both legally and on now. I know that the House will want to hear Jo morally. Swinson. Ms Harman: It is urgent that all these points are answered, and there will be an opportunity to raise the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The Leader matter in questions on the Electoral Commission next of the House may have seen today’s distressing reports Thursday. on the BBC about the increased rate of birth defects in Falluja, which are now 13 times higher than what we see Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Before in Europe, and there is a concern that that is as a result asking my question, I must point out that the Electoral of weapons used by the United States during the Iraq Commission has just stated that Lord Ashcroft’s donations war. May we have a debate about this issue, so that we were legal and permissible. can hear from the Foreign Secretary what representations he is making to his US counterpart about this appalling May we have a debate on the subject of the strategic legacy of the Iraq war? importance of oil refineries to the United Kingdom? I have just raised that matter at Business, Innovation and Skills questions without having a substantive answer. Ms Harman: There will be a debate on Monday week The renewable heat incentive could destroy the narrow on defence in the world, which might be an opportunity profit margins of all oil refineries in this country. This is to air those concerns. a non-partisan request. We all support the principle of the incentive, but we do not wish to see oil refining in Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): In a further this country destroyed. request to my right hon. and learned Friend about the need for a debate next week on the Ashcroft affair, may Ms Harman: Well, we have just had an Energy Bill, I suggest that if someone is not paying taxes and giving and that looks across a wide range of those issues. I do money to the Tory party all over Britain, in essence the not know whether the hon. Gentleman sought to introduce British taxpayer is bankrolling the Conservative party? amendments or to make that point during the Bill’s Secondly, will she ensure that the Leader of the Tory proceedings, but he could look out for the next opportunity party and the shadow Foreign Secretary are asked the to do so in Energy and Climate Change questions. appropriate questions: what did they know and when did they know it? Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): May we have a debate on the rights of people to work Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask the Leader of the after the age of retirement, at 65 years old, if they are fit House not to respond to that question. The hon. Member and wish to do so? My right hon. and learned Friend for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has put his thoughts clearly will agree that it is wrong for employers, including the on the record, but I am afraid that it is not a business House authorities, to force people to retire. Supervisors question. have been telling employees in this House that they cannot work beyond 65, but who has the authority to Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): My give the supervisors the right to tell people that they Macclesfield constituency has a substantial rural area, cannot work beyond that age? including hill country. May I support the request made by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) Ms Harman: My hon. Friend raises an important for a debate on the rural economy and the report of the point, and no employer needs to fire people aged 60 or Rural Advocate? Rural areas are suffering tremendously 65; employers can, if they want, employ people after from the closure of shops and schools, very little public those ages if they are fit and able to do their work. A transport and the withdrawal of post office facilities, number of private sector companies do exactly that, and this is critical to large areas of the country. May we and he will know that we are looking into whether we have a debate on it, please? should change the default retirement age, so that people 1033 Business of the House 4 MARCH 2010 1034

[Ms Harman] Points of Order are protected from unfair dismissal beyond the ages of 12.33 pm 60 and 65. There will be questions to the House of Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): On a Commons Commission next Thursday, but in the meantime point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. At Business, I shall inquire into the matter with the House authorities. Innovation and Skills questions earlier this morning, I thank my hon. Friend for bringing the matter to my the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson) attention. asked a question that was rather wide of the question on the Order Paper, and Mr. Speaker ruled that the Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): On Minister should not answer it. It was about the future of Monday this week, 170 families in the London borough our aircraft carriers. Is there any way in which I can of Sutton learned that their children will not be obtaining point out, within the rules of order, that the suggestion a high school place in the borough. At the same time that there was a difference between the Conservative they learned that 986 children from outside the borough party’s position and that of the Government on the will be taking up places in high schools in the borough. future of the aircraft carriers was, in fact, unsound, and May we have a debate about early-day motion 686, on that both parties believe that the project should go the Greenwich judgment and school admission policies? forward, subject to the findings of the strategic defence review? I should be grateful if there were a way of [That this House notes that successive Government’s correcting the record. On a point of order, Madam have rejected calls for a change in the law to reverse the Deputy Speaker. effect of the Greenwich judgment on the operation of local school admission policy; is concerned that as a Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): The hon. Member result of the court judgment admission authorities are not will not be surprised if I say to him that his point was allowed to take into account administrative boundaries not a point of order for the Chair, but his comments when allocating school places; believes that parents and will have been heard and will be on the record. children living in a local authority area should be able to expect to obtain a place at a local school in that area; and Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): On a point calls on the Government either to bring forward its own of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Speaker is rightly legislation to grant local admission authorities the discretion committed to openness and transparency, so will you to give priority to the school preferences of parents resident confirm that no one in the Speaker’s Office was in within the local authority area or to support provisions of discussions with the Leader of the House about ensuring the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam’s Fair Access to that we do not have an opportunity to vote on the School (Admissions) Bill.] re-election by secret ballot of the Speaker? Will you use your good offices to persuade the Leader of the House Then we can finally ensure that the matter is sorted out. to hold that vote, which so many people want? It is unfair to children in my constituency, who cannot go to schools just down the road from where they live. Madam Deputy Speaker: That is not, strictly speaking, a point of order for the Chair. It is for the Government Ms Harman: There are Children, Schools and Families to decide what will happen on that matter, and the hon. questions next Monday, when I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s comments will have been heard. The Leader Gentleman will be able to obtain a specific answer on of the House is still in the Chamber. that. Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Earlier today, Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): My right Mr. Speaker said that any substantive criticisms of a hon. and learned Friend will know that the steel industry Member of the other place should be made by way of a faces very difficult times. On Teesside, it is believed that substantive motion, rather than by oral references. Yet the owner of Corus, Tata, has threatened to close our you will know that throughout Prime Minister’s questions slab steel mill, which is currently mothballed. Is not it yesterday and, again, today, smears and innuendos have time that the House discussed the steel industry, been levelled against a noble Lord—a Member of the acknowledging that it is an essential industry that has other place. Surely there should be some consistency, been the backbone of our manufacturing sector for and if that is a rule it should apply from the outset, more than 200 years? instead of rather late in the day. Madam Deputy Speaker: I understand what the hon. Ms Harman: I acknowledge all the points that my Gentleman is saying, but I remind him that Mr. Speaker hon. Friend makes. She is absolutely right in how she has certainly made the position quite clear and quite characterises the importance of the steel industry, and I plain from the Chair today. shall look for a further opportunity to debate those We now come to announce the results of the Divisions issues. deferred from a previous day. On the question relating to social security, the Ayes were 404 and the Noes were 53, so the Ayes have it. On the question relating to licences and licensing, the Ayes were 245 and the Noes were 162, so the Ayes have it. [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s debates.] 1035 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1036 Terrorism Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism against targets in Somaliland and Puntland, including the Ethiopian embassy, the presidential palace and the 12.36 pm United Nations Development Programme compound. In September last year, al-Shabaab released a video The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism statement in which it pledged its allegiance to Osama (Mr. David Hanson): I beg to move, bin Laden. As recently as 2 February 2010, it announced That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) its intention to combine the jihad in the Horn of Africa (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on with the global jihad led by al-Qaeda. I hope that that 1 March, be approved. helps to give my right hon. Friend a flavour of some of First, I thank the right hon. Member for Penrith and our concerns in relation to the international operation The Border (David Maclean) and the Joint Committee of al-Shabaab. on Statutory Instruments, which he chairs, for agreeing to consider the order today. Keith Vaz: It certainly does. However, Ministers came The terrorist threat to the United Kingdom and its to the Dispatch Box and said very similar things to the interests abroad remains severe and sustained. This House about the People’s Mujahedeen Organisation of week we have already debated the draft Prevention of Iran, and the Government lost that case under the Terrorism Act 2005 (Continuance in Force of Sections 1 proscribed organisation legislation. We have to be very to 9) Order 2010, and I know that the hon. Member for careful about this. Clearly, al-Shabaab has been involved Reigate (Mr. Blunt) shares my assessment of the situation. in these activities abroad, but does the Minister have We as a Government are determined to do all that we any evidence that it is operating in the United Kingdom— can to minimise that threat, and the proscription of where he is a Minister and we are the Parliament—and terrorist organisations is an important part of the engaged in any of the activities that he has described? I Government’s strategy to tackle terrorist activities at have not seen that evidence, and other Members of this home and abroad. House have not seen it—has he seen it? With this order we would therefore like to add the Mr. Hanson: I hope that my right hon. Friend will group, al-Shabaab, to the 45 international terrorist accept that, as I said, we are aware of a range of issues organisations that are listed under schedule 2 to the in relation to that evidence about which we are unable Terrorism Act 2000. This is the eighth proscription to give details to the House. I can say, however, that we under the 2000 Act. Section 3 of the Act provides a remain concerned that the activities of the organisation power for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to and its potential influence on individuals in the United proscribe an organisation if he believes that it is concerned Kingdom meet the legal test that we have to meet, to with terrorism. The Act specifies that an organisation is ensure that proscription takes place. Proscription is a concerned with terrorism if it commits or participates tough and necessary power, but it involves specific tests in acts of terrorism, prepares for terrorism, promotes or that need to be met. At the beginning of my speech, I encourages terrorism—including the unlawful glorification outlined the details of the particular activities that we of terrorism—or is otherwise concerned with terrorist need to consider. activity. I say to my right hon. Friend, and to the House as a Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I am grateful to my whole, that in the event of the organisation or its agents right hon. Friend for setting out those criteria. Have the wishing to make representations about the proscription Government received evidence that that particular order, it can do so following the consideration of my organisation, al-Shabaab, has been involved in any of right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. If he upholds the those activities? Has he seen that evidence? Is that, order, the applicant can appeal to the Proscribed therefore, why he has come before the House with this Organisations Appeal Commission, which is a special order? tribunal that will review whether my right hon. Friend has properly exercised his powers in refusing to de-proscribe Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I the organisation. The commission is able to consider was going to come on to this point later in my speech, the sensitive material to which we have had access, but I shall happily cover it now. He will know that the which underpins proscription decisions, and a special organisation, al-Shabaab, is currently and actively concerned advocate can be appointed to represent the interests of with terrorist activity. I cannot go into the details of the applicant in closed sessions of the commission. We every aspect, because we are aware of matters that we believe that the international evidence shows that there cannot disclose to the House for a range of reasons, but is a real need to take action against al-Shabaab. We are the group has waged a violent campaign against the convinced, having looked at the evidence internally, that Somali Transitional Federal Government, and against there is evidence which would be upheld by that legal the African Union peacekeeping troops in Somalia test and which we, as a nation, could defend if the since the beginning of 2007. It has undertaken a range appeal came forward in due course. of terrorist tactics, such as suicide operations and roadside I would also say to my right hon. Friend that, having bombings, and mounted a range of operations since considered all the evidence, my right hon. Friend the 2007, including in June 2009 in Beledweyne, one of the Home Secretary firmly believes that al-Shabaab is currently largest cities in Somalia, a suicide car bomb attack that concerned with terrorism and is involved in the activities killed the transitional Government’s Security Minister that I have described to the House. Indeed, there is not and, as a random act of terrorism, about 30 other only a concern in the United Kingdom but an international people in the process. consensus of condemnation of the organisation’s activities. The organisation has launched terrorist attacks outside For example—I hope that this further reassures my areas under its control, most notably in October 2008, right hon. Friend—the organisation is already proscribed when five co-ordinated suicide attacks were mounted in the United States, Australia and New Zealand. Our 1037 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1038 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Hanson] We are bringing this order forward not only in response to the litany of issues that I have mentioned in response actions today, if approved by this House and in another to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East place later on, will help to protect the United Kingdom (Keith Vaz) but because it is important that proscription against terrorist activity. will allow the police in the United Kingdom more We are actively examining the situation. As my right effectively to carry out disruptive action against supporters hon. Friend will know, we cannot comment directly on of this organisation in the United Kingdom. It also intelligence matters, but I have made an assessment, sends a very strong message from the United Kingdom with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, that that we are not willing to tolerate terrorism here or there is a small but genuine risk that British nationals anywhere else in the world. and British interests may be harmed as a result of al-Shabaab’s activities in Somalia and, indeed, in the Keith Vaz: It is essential that the Government keep wider region. the list of proscribed organisations under review. The Minister knows, because I have raised it with him Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): The Minister before, the situation regarding the proscription of the prayed in aid the fact—I am sure that he is correct—that LTTE. As far as everyone is concerned, the LTTE is the United States of America and Australia have proscribed finished. The war is over and the leader of the LTTE is this organisation. May I respectfully remind him that dead, and the Sri Lankan Government are confident the United States Congress and the federal Parliament about all that. Why does that organisation remain on of Australia both have a security and intelligence committee the list when it no longer exists? that is a committee of the Parliament, but we do not? Unless and until the Prime Minister and this Minister Mr. Hanson: I know that my right hon. Friend knows understand that there is a serious flaw—a deficiency—in the procedure, but it is worth outlining it to the House our procedures here, in that there is no parliamentary as a whole. We keep the list of proscribed organisations oversight, there will always be some doubt as to the under review. When I was Minister of State at the efficacy of some of these decisions. It is a serious, Northern Ireland Office, several proscribed organisations fundamental flaw. in Northern Ireland went in and out of proscription as Mr. Hanson: I respect my hon. Friend, who always takes their status changed to reflect their activities in relation a keen interest in these matters. He will know that there to the peace process. The position of the organisation is an Intelligence and Security and Committee comprising that my right hon. Friend mentions will be reviewed on senior Members of Parliament—of this place and another a regular basis by my right hon. Friend the Home place—who can call to account my right hon. Friends Secretary. It can, as can the organisation that we are the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary, and the discussing, apply to my right hon. Friend for head of the security services, to consider these issues. As de-proscription, and he will consider that. I explained to the House, there is a procedure whereby My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew organisations that are, under the legal test of proscription, Mackinlay) will have noticed that we are in the House brought before the Home Secretary for proscription of Commons Chamber having a debate about the order. purposes, can ask the Home Secretary to reconsider Later on, in another place, my noble Friend Lord West that decision. There is an independent process for looking will introduce the same order, and there will be a debate at the evidence and assessing whether he has acted there. Neither House needs to approve the order today. accordingly and in an appropriate manner. There could be a vote after one and a half hours, and if I, or my noble Friend, have not made the case, the Andrew Mackinlay: I do not know why this Prime proscription order will not be passed. There is parliamentary Minister, like the previous one, and Ministers are so oversight of this matter. cussed about this. As sure as night turns into day, one day a Prime Minister will create a parliamentary Committee. Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): While we are on The committee to which the Minister refers is not a the subject of the LTTE, I notice that the policy background parliamentary Committee—it is clerked by a spook. notes say: That is the reality of the situation. In the Congress of the United States, which he prayed in aid, and in “It is also a criminal offence to arrange a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation or to wear clothing or to carry articles Australia, these are parliamentary committees. They in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a meet in private, because these matters are secret, and member or supporter of the proscribed organisation.” everyone has confidence in them. Why cannot the Minister The Minister will recall the great difficulty that Parliament get his head around the issue that there should be such a had during the long demonstration that took place in committee here? It does not matter how distinguished Parliament square. Now that the environment is less our colleagues are: they are hand-picked by the Prime heated, can he tell us why no action was taken under Minister with the rubber stamp of Mr. Evans and his that aspect of the law during that demonstration? people—spooks. Mr. Hanson: My hon. Friend has made his point in Mr. Hanson: The LTTE has been a proscribed his usual forceful manner. I am sure that my right hon. organisation since the Terrorism Act 2000 came into Friend the Prime Minister will pay attention to this force because, since the 1970s, the group had carried out debate and note the comments that he has made. I numerous terrorist attacks in Sri Lanka as part of its simply say to the House that there is a procedure and campaign to secure a Tamil homeland. Although support that it is tested. There is a genuine legal test for proscription, for the LTTE is unlawful, the Tamil community has the and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has to right to support that aim, and to discuss and make their ensure that that test is met. It is open to challenge and views known on the matter. We have a long and proud open to defence. tradition of freedom of speech and assembly, and it is 1039 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1040 Terrorism Terrorism important that those who support the Tamil case can the other place, also have the opportunity to vote on the express their views in Parliament square. Clear action order today. The safeguards are in place, so I ask the can be taken under proscription legislation if individuals House for its support. support organisations that are proscribed, but I have no I know that many right hon. and hon. Members have problems with individuals demonstrating in Parliament constituents from Somalia or who look to Somalia as square, provided that they are not demonstrating support their ancestral homeland, and I want to assure them for an organisation that is proscribed under these rules. that the Somali community is respected and valued. It Ultimately, it is for the police to consider whether to plays a positive part in our community and nothing in take action on these matters. We provide a framework this order will prevent members of the Somali community and the police make the operational decisions and from visiting Somalia or sending money to relatives. determine whether charges should be brought under Nor will it prevent the Somali community from openly the relevant legislation for this and other proscribed discussing issues pertinent to them or the situation in organisations. Somalia. Indeed, nothing in the order will stop any individual or organisation having a political view on the Mr. Blunt: In that case, is it the Minister’s view that situation in Somalia as a whole— offences did not occur during that demonstration and that is why no action was taken? Keith Vaz: The Minister has been very generous in giving way, but what he has just said simply is not the Mr. Hanson: One of the great joys of being a Minister case as far as other proscriptions are concerned. The is that I do not have to decide whether offences have hon. Members for North Southwark and Bermondsey been committed. That is the job of the police, not the (Simon Hughes), for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer), Minister with responsibility for policing, and that is for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) and for Brent, part of the separation of powers. We will provide the East (Sarah Teather) and I—and others—have had to framework, the funding, the support and the general make representations in the last few years when Tamil policy direction, but ultimately it is for the Metropolitan organisations unconnected to the LTTE have sought to Police Commissioner to determine whether prosecutions book rooms, for example in the ExCeL centre, and have should be suggested to the Crown Prosecution Service been prevented from doing so because the LTTE was so that charges may be brought. The right to protest is proscribed. Two of the leaders of those Tamil organisations valid, and I have not seen any evidence that the terms of were then subject to interview by the police. That is why the 2000 Act were broken nor of charges being brought we are concerned, despite the Minister’s reassurances. as a result of that demonstration, so—self-evidently—the As soon as an order is passed, it has a draconian effect police must have taken the same view. The policing of on communities unconnected with the organisation the demonstration was very effective. concerned.

Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I hope that Mr. Hanson: The 2008 Act is clear. It says that my right hon. Friend realises that Members have concerns individuals should not undertake activity that supports about this order. If there is no evidence that this acts of terrorism, or prepares, promotes or encourages organisation, al-Shabaab, exists or is behaving in a way terrorism. Nothing would stop any organisation booking that is causing serious concern, some in our community— a room in a building if it were not one of the proscribed with some justice—will be concerned that the Government organisations and not undertaking one of those activities, are exaggerating the existence of terrorist threat in this and as long as its members were not wearing insignia country. That is the last thing that we should ever wish and supporting or glorifying the proscribed organisation. to countenance. It is perfectly legitimate to have a view, as many Tamil residents of the UK do, on the situation in Sri Lanka, Mr. Hanson: The order is being debated and can be as it will be for any resident to have a view on the voted on. I have already told the House about the five situation in Somalia. What is not allowed under the suicide attacks, including one on the Ethiopian embassy; proscription order is for individuals to support a particular an attack on the United Nations development programme; organisation if we have determined that it is involved in a double suicide bombing against the African Union the activities described in the legislation. mission in Somalia; a suicide vehicle-borne device attack on 18 June 2009 against a hotel, killing the Security Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): What Minister and 30 other innocent individuals; and the action would the Minister be willing to undertake if responsibility for the attack on Mogadishu with 21 deaths. organisations that are nothing to do with this particular It is my opinion and that of my right hon. Friend the Somali group encounter the sort of problems that the Home Secretary that those incidents are evidence Chair of the Home Affairs Committee described? internationally of the intentions of the organisation. As I have said, I cannot comment on security matters in Mr. Hanson: With due respect, it is not for me to this country in detail, but we have made our assessment, micromanage those sorts of issues. Ultimately, it is for based on that information, of whether the organisation the Home Secretary, having assessed the international should be proscribed. situation and considered the information from the I give my hon. Friend the assurance that it is open to UK—about which I cannot go into detail—to determine the organisation—as it is to Islam4UK, which we proscribed whether the organisation is involved in activity that only some four to five weeks ago—to apply to the allows the proscription order to be brought forward for Home Secretary for de-proscription. Proscribed the House to consider. organisations can test the Home Secretary’s rationale It is for the police to make individual charges in on these matters and, if they are not content, they can relation to breaches of the proscription order, but this is appeal to the appropriate committee. The House, and not about a wider curtailment of political debate on 1041 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1042 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Hanson] Before I ask specific questions in response to the Minister’s introduction of the order, may I make a point issues such as Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Somalia or about methodology? When the Government proscribed any other geographical or topical interest in which Islam4UK in January, it followed press coverage of a proscribed organisations happen to be interested. When proposed march in Wootton Bassett. The Opposition we had the debate on Islam4UK, we did not prevent supported the ban on Islam4UK, and it was widely people from discussing the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan, known that the organisation was a successor to al-Ghurabaa and we are not preventing them from protesting against and the Saved Sect. However, the timing of the ban the Government on those issues or from saying that the suggested that it was in reaction to the proposals for a Government have different views from theirs on any demonstration and in response to public pressure. Can particular issue. As I described to the House earlier, we the Minister assure the House that the decision to are trying to provide legal powers, using the legal test, proscribe continues to be based on evidence? In the to stop the organisation. light of these questions, and those to follow, will he give I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends, as well as the House more detail on the internal process that leads Opposition Members, will support the order. It has to an order such as today’s? been brought forward with due consideration by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and I commend Mr. Hanson: I can give the hon. Gentleman a firm it to the House. assurance that the decision on Islam4UK was coincidental, not subsequent, to the march in Wootton Bassett. 1pm Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Before turning to Mr. Blunt: I am grateful for that clarification, but the order, I want to reflect on the intervention from the perhaps when he replies the Minister will describe as far hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor). I thoroughly as he can the processes that lead to a decision, as that agree with her that we should not be exaggerating may throw further light on the background to that terrorism, but nor should we exaggerate the measures reassurance. that we take against terrorism, so I invite her to recall Will the Minister confirm that al-Shabaab is the only that she was in the Lobby voting for 90 days and 42 days name of the organisation that the Government wish to pre-trial detention and for the provisions on the glorification proscribe, or can we expect further proscription orders of terrorism, which bring other problems in their wake. to cover other names for al-Shabaab? He will be aware I look forward to her position becoming more consistent that al-Shabaab was proscribed in the United States in for as long as she remains in the House. February 2008 on the grounds that its leadership was working alongside al-Qaeda, and based on the intelligence Ms Dari Taylor: I have absolutely no problem in that individuals from al-Shabaab had trained with al-Qaeda saying in this House that I did support 90 days, and in Afghanistan. Other countries, including Norway and were there reasonable cause for legislation to that effect Sweden, also banned al-Shabaab in 2008, and Australia to be laid before the House tomorrow, I would support banned it last year. I would be grateful if he could it again. explain what was contained in the statement issued by al-Shabaab on 2 February 2010 that prompted the Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Before Government to bring in this order because that appears we go any further, I should say that I have allowed the to have been the cue for today’s instrument. hon. Lady to respond, but now we must focus on the motion before the House. Will the Minister explain what the Government’s position on al-Shabaab was before 2 February and why Mr. Blunt: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, it differed from that of a number of our allies? Could but I may not be alone in detecting a certain philosophical the Government have acted sooner? Al-Shabaab’s campaign inconsistency in the hon. Lady’s position. has been ongoing since the beginning of 2007, prompting I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the the moves to proscribe it in other countries. Is there not Government’s reasons for the order, and Her Majesty’s a case for better co-ordination between countries on Opposition will support the Government in seeking to proscribed organisations, and have Her Majesty’s add al-Shabaab to the list of proscribed organisations. Government received representations on the proscription Decisions to proscribe organisations should not be taken of al-Shabaab from any other countries? lightly. Free speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, The explanatory memorandum refers to an explicit and the Conservative party is clear that proscription threat from al-Shabaab to attack targets in Kenya. Can should apply only to organisations whose activities the Minister tell us any more about the nature of this include engagement in terrorism and its active threat, and is there a specific threat to British interests encouragement. in Kenya? Are the Government receiving the necessary The Minister will remember the arguments made by co-operation from the Kenyan authorities to tackle the Conservative Members, most notably my hon. and learned potential threat in Kenya? Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), during the debate on the Terrorism Act 2006. We sought to Andrew Mackinlay: I am grateful that the hon. distinguish clearly between exhortation to commit acts Gentleman referred to paragraph 2.2 in the explanatory of terrorism as opposed to the Government’s definitions memorandum with reference to Kenya. He has just around glorification. I remind the House that, in seeking asked whether we are getting full co-operation. With to prevent and suppress terrorism, we must do so in a respect, I think it is the other way around: we owe way consistent with our values, and I am satisfied today Kenya an immeasurable debt for trying to police and that we can support the Government. However, I have control the northern border with Somalia against terrorism. several questions for the Minister. The question that needs to be asked is whether the 1043 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1044 Terrorism Terrorism United Kingdom and other western Governments are order before the House. I look forward to the Minister doing enough to help and bolster the great burden addressing the issues that I have raised when he replies being borne by Kenya on behalf of us all. to this debate.

Mr. Blunt: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for 1.11 pm that observation, but the order does refer to a specific threat to British interests in Kenya, and it is only proper Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): We all to assume that, given that it is their country, they should heard the Minister’s opening remarks and his sobering be the first port of call for any practical assistance that assessment of the terrorism threat that we face, which is might be needed. So co-operation would be required, clearly at a high level. It is therefore entirely appropriate and it is that co-operation that I am seeking to probe. that we as a nation should have a high level of preparedness and seek to introduce measures to disrupt that potential On the issue of al-Shabaab’s presence in the UK, is risk. We shall thus support the order today, because it is the Minister in a position to say anything more about clear from the evidence, so far as we can assess it, that the numbers of people involved? I appreciate that there al-Shabaab is committed to violence and the use of are growing concerns about potential terrorist links terror attacks to achieve its aims. Interestingly, as the between Somali organisations and the Somali diaspora Conservative spokesman pointed out, the problem is in the UK. Can he give any further details about the one that other nations have been aware of for a number assessment of al-Shabaab’s presence in the UK and any of years. I, too, will therefore listen with great interest to evidence of organised travel from the UK to Somalia what the Minister says in response to the question for the specific purpose of terrorist training? about what, as far as he can tell us, has triggered the As everyone in the House is aware, British and other Government’s action now, when other nations took allied servicemen and women are paying a very heavy action a couple of years ago. price in Afghanistan to prevent the resurgence there of I accept the Minister’s point that he should not be a regime that might play host to al-Qaeda. I expect that responsible for micro-managing things, and I would not the House will share my concern that as we, and in expect him to be making hall bookings for organisations particular the Pakistani armed forces, close off options that fail to do so. However, it is perhaps incumbent on for terrorist training in Afghanistan and Pakistan, al-Qaeda him to consider the unintended consequences of the or al-Qaeda-inspired terrorist organisations may simply legislation he is asking us to pass, and at least to think relocate? The current campaign of the Pakistani armed about who, if anyone, will be responsible for ensuring forces gives every indication of being of profound that the activities of legitimate organisations are not importance in this regard, and their apparent success restricted. I am sure the Minister accepts that there is a should receive greater attention than it has done so far natural tendency for people to err on the side of caution, in the UK. Their success is very important to us. In the which could have consequences for perfectly legitimate light of the consequences of that campaign in particular, organisations. will the Minister confirm that just as we now accept the need for more concerted efforts in Yemen, we cannot Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Would the hon. ignore the growing dimension of terrorist activity in the Gentleman consider as legitimate the sort of activities horn of Africa? that we saw on a Channel 4 programme shown only a Finally, on the Somali diaspora, let me join the few days ago? It appeared to indicate that some Minister in reassuring those in the Somali population in organisations masquerade as having political objectives, the United Kingdom, whether they are British citizens but in fact have fundamentalist objectives, including, so or not. As he will be aware, a significant number of I understand, the Islamic federation of Europe. Somalis living in Britain are here because they fled from the very people we are seeking to proscribe today. Does Tom Brake: I am afraid I do not know enough about the Minister agree that when we proscribe organisations, that particular organisation to say whether we might in we must be emphatic in saying that we are not labelling future debate proscribing it in this House, but clearly entire communities or nationalities? the Minister and the Government will be keeping a close eye on such organisations and whether they have Keith Vaz rose— transformed themselves into other organisations, describing themselves in a slightly different way. Mr. Blunt: If the right hon. Gentleman will restrain At the risk of being criticised by the Government for himself, I am coming to the point that he made earlier. asking some questions, let me say that it is legitimate for We should heed his concerns about the challenge of us to use this opportunity to examine the effectiveness distinguishing, in the case of the Tamils, between the of such bans. I would like the Minister to confirm LTTE—the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam—and whether there has been any analysis of the effectiveness other Tamil organisations, which is difficult for people of bans. We know that organisations such as Islam4UK who are not expert in that area, and about the consequences have had a number of name changes and may have sought of such a proscription and what it means in the wider to get round bans in that way. It would be interesting public mind. However, we must not lose sight of that to know how often that has happened, how many proscription or the necessary measures against the organisations, having been banned, have simply changed organisation concerned. Such proscriptions, where a their names to escape that ban, and how many people significant number of British citizens are affected—or, have been prosecuted and found guilty of belonging to in this case, large numbers of the Somali population in a proscribed organisation that has been banned in that our country—pose a particular challenge in that regard. way. It is incumbent on us to ensure that the legislation Having made what I imagine was the point that the we pass is as effective as possible in tackling terrorism, right hon. Gentleman sought to intervene on me to but there is still a fundamental question about banning make, let me conclude by saying that we support the and whether it is productive in any shape or form. 1045 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1046 Terrorism Terrorism [Tom Brake] manage the way in which these orders operate, but I can tell him—and call on other Members who are not Finally, on Somalia, the Government have identified present today to give him examples—of the effects of al-Shabaab as an organisation against which we need to proscription of organisations such as the LTTE. As far take action. Although the Minister is a Home Office as I am concerned, that organisation no longer exists. It Minister, it might have been useful—perhaps he can do was defeated in Sri Lanka a few months ago, and its this when he responds—to set out what we are doing as leader has been executed. It does not function in Sri a nation to support the Somali Government and the Lanka at all now. I do not believe it ever functioned in legitimate political players there, so that we can see not the United Kingdom, and I did not therefore see the only that we are taking action here against organisations need to proscribe it here. that might want to pursue a terrorist agenda, but that as The Government need to pay heed to the effect of a country we are supporting legitimate Somali authorities. that proscription on the wider Tamil community, and to As I stated at the beginning of my speech, we shall the effect that the proscription of al-Shabaab will have support the order today. However, it is legitimate to ask on the 45,000 Somalis who live in the United Kingdom. questions about the unintended consequences of the When members of the Somalian community wish to ban and whether the general principle of applying bans hold meetings to discuss the terrible situation in Somalia, to such organisations is particularly effective in tackling they will face a lot of pressure from the police and from terrorism. the Government of Somalia. They will be told that their meeting is actually in support of al-Shabaab. They 1.17 pm might have absolutely no connections or dealings with Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I, too, will be relatively al-Shabaab; they might, as the Minister has said, have brief, but I want to note my concerns to the House. come to this country in order to escape its activities, but the fact that they are holding a meeting to discuss the On these counter-terrorism measures, Ministers come situation in Somalia will result in police activity and to the Dispatch Box at short notice to present their almost certainly in the embassy of Somalia writing to cases, on which they have had evidence and information; the organisations from which the people wish to book and Members, because they trust the Government, accept accommodation for their meeting, to prevent those everything that Ministers tell them about such organisations. meetings from taking place. How do I know this? I I have no reason to distrust this Minister: I rate him know it because that is precisely what happened to the highly, and in all the posts that he has held he has been British Tamils Forum and members of the Tamil straight, honourable and transparent with this House. community over the past few years, since the Government Therefore, when he comes before us today and says, “This decided to proscribe the LTTE. is a wicked, nasty organisation that has been involved in gross acts of violence in the horn of Africa and in The Minister says that there is a simple answer to all Somalia. It seeks to destabilise the Somali Government, this: if people do not like proscription, they can appeal and it fits the Government’s criteria for proscribed to the independent commission that the Government organisations,” we accept what he says, because neither have set up. That is precisely what the People’s Mujahedeen I nor the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), the hon. Organisation of Iran has done in respect of its proscription, Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) in relation to its activities in Iran. Did the Government nor any other Member has had the benefit of seeing the accept the wishes of the independent commission that information that he has seen. However, there are problems they set up when the People’s Mujahedeen appealed to with the scrutiny of such measures and with just accepting it and asked it to raise the proscription? Absolutely not! absolutely everything that is said without probing and The Government fought their own commission—their prodding, which is the role of Parliament. own creation, which was supposed to act independently— As the Minister knows, the Select Committee on tooth and nail, all the way to the Supreme Court, which Home Affairs, of which the hon. Member for Carshalton in those days was in the House of Lords, until they lost and Wallington is a distinguished member, produced a and had to give in. Then, a Minister—not this one—had report about the need to bring together the various to come before the House and eat humble pie at the agencies and organisations that deal with counter-terrorism. Dispatch Box because the Government had to recognise We suggested establishing a national security council, that they could not defy the highest court in the land. with advisers to the Prime Minister who would then be That is why I say to the Minister that, although we able to come before the House and answer questions on will not vote against the motion to proscribe al-Shabaab, issues such as that which we are debating today. Sadly, I do not think he has given sufficient consideration to the Government were dismissive of our report—that is the consequences of his action. I know he is a good politics: we are dismissive of certain aspects of what the Minister; he is also a busy Minister, and Home Office Government do—but our proposal bears scrutiny, because Ministers have to accept the advice presented to them we were suggesting a more effective way of putting such by their civil servants. I hope that, as the Minister information before the House. responsible for counter-terrorism, he will ask the large If the Minister says that al-Shabaab meets the criteria number of civil servants who have advised him on this and the Home Secretary has decided to proscribe the issue whether the Government go back and look at the group, we will go along with that and there will be no consequences for communities of the proscription of vote in the House today on this matter. I cannot see any these organisations. I hope he will also ask whether they Member or political party doubting the sincerity of the look at the list to ensure that it is absolutely current and Government in this respect. that the organisations still exist. Who looks at the list? However, the Minister needs to look very carefully at When do the submissions come up to Ministers? How the effect of the proscription on the wider Somalian many meetings has he had with his civil servants to community. I accept his statement that he cannot micro- discuss the number of organisations on that list? Is 1047 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1048 Terrorism Terrorism there a monthly meeting, or does it take place every can only take at face value—an organisation that I three or four months? When does he probe and push his think was called the Islamic federation of Europe appeared civil servants into giving him this information? That is to have a number of cells in Tower Hamlets and other what we expect of the Government when we go along parts of the country. It also appeared to be pretty with a motion such as this, because, although we do not endemic throughout Europe as a whole. In the context have the information that he has, we accept everything of considering whether to proscribe an organisation, that he says and believe the case that he makes. and of the prevention of terrorism, we need to look at When I asked the Minister whether the criteria had the objectives of any organisation or umbrella organisation been met, he reeled off a list of all the terrible atrocities that sympathises with—and/or has similar objectives to that al-Shabaab had been involved in. I am not sure, those of—the organisation being proscribed. however, whether he told the House that those activities It is not simply a question of proscribing, but of had found their way to the UK mainland. I accept his preventing. I simply ask whether the Minister knows of assertion that it might well be involved in terrorist any evidence that this federation, which was given one activities in the horn of Africa, but is it involved in these and a half hours on Channel 4 a couple of days ago, is activities in the United Kingdom? Are al-Shabaab cells in fact engaged in activities that are in any way inimical operating in the UK at the moment? This is not private to the stability of the UK. I also ask whether and to information that the Minister needs to keep secret; it is what extent it is infiltrating the political system. The the kind of information that the House needs to be Minister’s colleague, the Minister of State, Department made aware of. Can he satisfy the House that he has for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. seen a file on the activities of al-Shabaab in the United Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Jim Fitzpatrick), Kingdom? It would bolster his case if he could say that was also on the programme. Is there any evidence of he had, and that he has seen the evidence. infiltration on the basis of what one might describe as a As the Minister knows, he had me from the moment masquerade? he stood up at the Dispatch Box and put this proposal We would all utterly defend freedom of speech and before the House. We give the Government a huge freedom of election, but the question that lies at the amount of leeway on counter-terrorism matters, as do heart of the issue is whether there was any attempt to the Opposition: the hon. Member for Reigate has spoken delude the electorate into believing that they were taking very eloquently in support of the Government today. In part in a political choice, when the people standing or order to continue to give our support, however, we need organising actually represented a different objective of to know that these processes of scrutiny are ongoing in a fundamentalist nature. the Home Office. That would help us to explain to our constituents why this is happening. There is still confusion Keith Vaz rose— among the 300,000 members of the British Tamil community, and there has been confusion among those Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the right hon. who support the People’s Mujahedeen. Member intervenes, may I remind the House that we are looking closely at a particular order, whose main There will now be confusion among the Somalian reference is to al-Shabaab? The general point is accepted, community in Leicester. I have a thriving British Somalian but that is the particular organisation named in the community in my constituency. There was a time when I order referred to in the motion on today’s Order Paper. wondered why so many Somalis were ending up in Leicester. I was told that they were making their way Keith Vaz: I will not widen the debate because you from the horn of Africa to Holland, where they settled have made your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker. A in Rotterdam. Then, having become EU residents, they number of people who were in the programme deny any were deciding to exercise their right to come to the involvement in this organisation, however, so to be fair United Kingdom. They were choosing to come here to them—the hon. Gentleman has put one side of the and settle in places such as Leicester, London, Birmingham, story—it is important to note that a number of elected Leeds and Manchester because they felt very safe here. councillors have categorically denied any involvement From time immemorial, millions of people have come at all in this organisation. to settle in those places because Britain is the safest country for them. This is the most tolerant country in Mr. Cash: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the world. It is a mirror of the world, and that is why has pointed that out. What I am stating here is more in people choose to come here when they are fleeing the nature of a question—asking the Minister, in the persecution. context of this particular order, whether he is aware of a I ask the Minister please to look at the consequences connection of any description between the kind of of what he is doing, in respect of the wider Somalian activities described in the programme, which I am sure community.I have no problem with proscribing al-Shabaab, he knows about, and this organisation; and, indeed, but he must realise that what he does today will have a whether any general lessons need to be drawn, as it profound effect on the Somalian community in the would completely unacceptable if any proscribed United Kingdom. Will he please ensure that that effect organisation, or anybody working with such an organisation is carefully assessed, monitored and reviewed? under an umbrella, were engaged in activities that could undermine our electoral system. 1.28 pm Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): The right hon. 1.32 pm Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) has referred to Mr. Hanson: Let me commence by answering the hon. cross-border activity, and I would like to invite the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), who asked about recent Minister to respond to one point. In the television television programmes and activities in Tower Hamlets. programme that I saw a couple of days ago—which I I cannot really comment on whether any consideration 1049 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 Prevention and Suppression of 1050 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Hanson] The hon. Members for Reigate and for Carshalton and Wallington effectively asked me, “Why now?” We has been given to proscribing groups that are not on the keep these matters constantly under ongoing review. proscribed list. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, The hon. Member for Reigate asked about our relationship there is a statutory test under the 2000 Act, which with Kenya. We have strong relationships with that indicates whether or not an organisation should be country; we keep the situation under review and we will proscribed. In response to the point made by my right take action against any organisation when we believe we hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), can meet the statutory test. I was also asked whether an we continue to keep under review not just organisations organisation might morph into another organisation by on the proscribed list, but organisations about which we changing its name. We keep that, too, under constant have potential concerns, and which we may wish to review. The same charge was made regarding our bring forward at a future date to join the proscribed list. proscription of Islam4UK some four to five weeks ago. What I can say is that we keep all matters under review Other organisations have changed their name, and we and we are active—not just in the borough of Tower have had to bring back orders to meet our obligations. Hamlets, but throughout east London and in many As I say, we have to keep such matters under review. other parts of the UK—in helping to prevent terrorism The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington through a range of activities and programmes to ensure asked how many prosecutions we have taken. Between that we do not allow radicalisation to occur. 2001 and 2009, 31 people have been charged with breaches That brings me to the initial point raised by the hon. of their proscription, and accordingly there have been Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), echoed somewhat by 15 convictions in various forms across the UK. the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom We are very concerned not to label the Somali community Brake), which was about the evidence base. My right as a whole—this issue was raised in the debate—in hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East also touched connection with our concerns about this particular on this. The decision to proscribe an organisation is not organisation. The Somali community—in Leicester, as one taken lightly. It entails the building of a case that in other great cities of the UK—plays a very positive meets the legal test under the 2000 Act, and which is role. As accepted by hon. Members, members of the examined by officials in the Home Office and other Somali community are often here because they have Government Departments. That case is assembled over escaped from intimidation and terrorist activity elsewhere— many weeks and months as the evidence is brought concerns that we are trying to tackle. Britain has a great forward and collated. Ultimately, my right hon. Friend tradition of welcoming the Somali community and the Home Secretary has to take a decision on that case. other refugees into the country.Concern has been expressed To answer my right hon. Friend the Member for about whether the order will label the Somali community. Leicester, East, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary I hope that it will not, and I believe—if I reflect on these has seen evidence put to him, which we cannot discuss matters carefully, as I have done—that the UK Somali in detail here, indicating not only that suicide attacks, community will welcome this action because it shows bombings and murders involving explosive devices might that we are concerned to tackle terrorism in their home have been carried out by this organisation abroad, but country and the impact of such terrorism on the interests general concerns about its operation. I say to my right of citizens in their adopted country. That is why I hope hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East that British the Somali community will welcome this measure—I interests are sometimes affected by British interests am sure they will. abroad, and that solidarity with other organisations I was asked what else the Government were doing to fighting terrorism abroad sometimes requires that we help to defuse the cauldron that leads to terrorist take particular steps. We have assessed the situation organisations developing in the first place. The Government carefully and come to this conclusion, based on the are greatly concerned to support the nation of Somalia evidence that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and to tackle some of the wider issues to date. In 2009, has examined. the UK Government contributed £15.7 million to the African Union Mission in Somalia. I remind you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this mission was attacked by the Keith Vaz: I am very grateful for that clarification and organisation being proscribed today. I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. Is he saying For the financial year 2009-10, DFID’s programme that there is al-Shabaab activity in the UK at this budget for Somalia is £25 million, and the Africa conflict moment? prevention pool allocation to Somalia is £5.7 million. We are also spending a further £1.4 million on counter- Mr. Hanson: My right hon. Friend will have to accept terrorism projects, and we spent £750,000 on a three-year that I cannot go into detail about the activities we wish migration project that ended in December last year. We to examine or about decisions taken on them. I have are extremely concerned to ensure that we support our indicated to him clear evidence of activity abroad that European Community colleagues in the humanitarian we are concerned about. I hope that he will accept that, office and the United Nations central emergency relief as we bring this measure forward. As I explained earlier, fund. Let me remind the House that the United Nations if an organisation does not accept proscription, it can mission was also attacked by five suicide bombers, and make representations to my right hon. Friend the Home by al-Shabaab organisation members, in October 2008. Secretary, and if he upholds his decision, supported by Sometimes, to secure support and improve the situation both Houses of Parliament, the organisation can then in Somalia, which is under attack from forces trying to take its case elsewhere and ask for the evidence to be destabilise it, we must invest British Government money. looked at further. I hope my right hon. Friend the I hope I have assured the House that the order is Member for Leicester, East and, indeed, the hon. Member valuable, and that we are committed to Somalia as a for Reigate will accordingly accept that. whole. We will do nothing to label citizens of Somalia 1051 Prevention and Suppression of 4 MARCH 2010 1052 Terrorism who live and make their homes in the United Kingdom Business of the House as fellow travellers of the organisation concerned—they are not. They support the order, which I commend to 1.41 pm the House. Question put and agreed to. The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Harman): I beg to move, Resolved, That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the questions That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on of Ms Harriet Harman not later than two hours after the 1 March, be approved. commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; the Questions may be put after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. Today we return to our debates on the report of the Reform of the House of Commons Committee, with a further two hours of debate, following more than eight hours of debate on the Floor of the House and in Westminster Hall, including five and half hours of debate last Monday. I hope that we will agree the motion without further debate; we do not want to debate the process, but to bring our debates on the substance to a conclusion, and to vote on the motions and amendments before the House. I commend the motion to the House.

1.42 pm Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Briefly, I want to register my objection to the fact that we do not have an opportunity today to debate the proposal on election of the Speaker.

1.43 pm Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): We have an opportunity this afternoon to register the concern of many Members that it was perfectly fair for the Procedure Committee to assume that its whole package of motions would be voted on today, especially as the Leader of the House had put them all down on the Order Paper. At business questions, however, she said that she wanted to facilitate the proposals of the Wright Committee. She seemed to imply that she would allow us to vote on all aspects of the Wright Committee, whose Chairman is in his place now, which had specifically involved itself in the matter of the election of Deputy Speakers. As I understand it, that part of the Committee’s work was passed to the Procedure Committee, which was a specific decision of the Wright Committee. For many months, the Procedure Committee deliberated on how we should elect Deputy Speakers, and whether the Speaker should be re-elected in an open or secret ballot. In all good faith, the Procedure Committee, whose Chairman is also in his place this afternoon, brought the motions before us. The Leader of the House was therefore wrong to say at business questions that we should vote only on the measures arising from the Wright Committee, because the proposals on election of Deputy Speakers came from the Procedure Committee. Deliberately and, we believe, for cynical reasons—I hate to say that, but I think that she fears she may not win the vote—she has cherry-picked only those motions relating to a secret ballot for the election of a Deputy Speaker. My understanding was that the Leader of the House— she can deny this—had tabled all the motions, and was intending to speak against her own motion. Until last night, she was acting in an entirely appropriate way. She was doing what she promised the House: that she would 1053 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1054

[Mr. Edward Leigh] to vote on a matter that was the unanimous decision of the Select Committee. It is quite wrong. For consistency, give it a choice. Therefore, she put down one motion that I happen to be in favour of open ballots across the the Speaker should be re-elected on an open ballot, and board—I would like none to be secret—but is it not one motion that it should be on a secret ballot. She is of even more bizarre that if the Speaker loses his seat at the view that we should elect the Speaker on a secret the next election, his successor will be elected by secret ballot only once—at the beginning, as we did last June. ballot, but if he retains his seat, and there is a vote, It is not for me to speak for her, but as I will not have a which there will be, it will be by open ballot? Where is vote, I have no choice—this procedure debate is the only the consistency? opportunity. She, along with many in the House, believes that the Speaker should be elected on an open ballot Mr. Leigh: I think that we can prove, without a after that. Others take a different view, because we shadow of doubt, that there is absolutely no logical believe in consistency. consistency in what the Leader of the House has done. Why should every other post—every Select Committee This should not be seen in terms of an individual; it Chair and Deputy Speakers—be elected on a secret ballot should be seen in terms of the rights of the House of and then re-elected on a secret ballot? Nobody suggests Commons. So let us talk about some mythical future that if the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Speaker. The whole point of a secret ballot is to allow say, is elected on a secret ballot at the beginning of the everyone to make a considered— next Parliament, thereafter there will be no further secret ballot. Once someone became Chairman of the Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have allowed the Foreign Affairs Committee, therefore, I presume that hon. Gentleman some leeway, and it is perfectly in order they could remain Chairman not just for that Parliament, for him to comment on what is not in the motion, but it but for two. I refer deliberately to a Chairman—or is certainly not in order for him to go into such detail Chairlady or Chair—of a Committee in the next about the substance of the issue. Parliament, because in the Parliament after that nobody would want to vote in an open ballot—they would Mr. Leigh: This motion, Madam Deputy Speaker, rather have a secret ballot, and we will be granted one. concerns the way in which we are to conduct our affairs this afternoon. Let me end with a plea to the Leader of Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): For clarity, the House, who presumably, like me, loves this House of may I make the point—I am sure my hon. Friend did Commons and wants it to act in a democratic way. Why not intend to mislead the House—that the Procedure are we voting for a Business Committee this afternoon? Committee did not reach a judgment one way or the Because we do not want the Government—and it may other on whether the Speaker in a new Parliament be a Conservative Government—to decide on the business should be ratified by a secret ballot. It said that it ought of the House. We do not want the Government alone to to be a matter for the House to decide, and that is what decide what we can vote for. the Leader of the House is denying us by not putting It is within the power of the Leader of the House to motions 69 and 72 above the line. stand up in the next few minutes and say, “I have Mr. Leigh: My right hon. Friend is right. I am at a listened to the House of Commons. Next week I will disadvantage because I am not a member of the Procedure allow the House of Commons to vote.” I am not Committee; I can only look at its report. However, it making any plea for either a secret or an open ballot; I seems that the Procedure Committee did a service to the am merely asking the Leader of the House to facilitate House. It said, “There are two opinions: some people that vote. If people have confidence in her arguments, believe that the Speaker should be re-elected in an open they will vote for her. That is all that she has to do. ballot, and others believe that he or she should be re-elected in a secret ballot. Let us give the House a 1.51 pm chance to vote.” The Leader of the House seemed to be Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Let me, going along with that entirely sensible procedure. What as a member of the Select Committee on Procedure, happened yesterday to convince her that she could not join my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough trust the House of Commons to vote on that most (Mr. Leigh) in saying how disappointed I am that the important measure? Why is it that all the other Chairmen whole of our report is not to be debated under this of Select Committees, which are far less important than motion. Motion 8, relating to the election of the Deputy the office of Speaker, will be re-elected on a secret Speakers, specifically states: ballot, but the House will never be given an opportunity to vote on whether the Speaker should be re-elected in a “The First Report from the Procedure Committee, on Election of the Speaker and of the Deputy Speakers… is relevant.” secret ballot? The rest of the report and its recommendations, however, We simply ask for democracy. How can one talk about are not the subject of a debate, and there is no opportunity making the House more modern and accountable when for a resolution to be made. such back-room gerrymandering still goes on? The Leader of the House—she and she alone, not the House I hope that in responding to what will be quite a short of Commons—has decided that for the next 100 years, debate, the Leader of the House will repeat in an open once a Speaker is elected on a secret ballot, it will be forum what she said to me just now behind the Speaker’s impossible to have a secret ballot, and virtually impossible Chair. She seems to be under the misapprehension that to have any decent election. right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House cannot be trusted to make decisions themselves, and Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I am a member that she should somehow second-guess those decisions of the Procedure Committee, and I am horrified that and prevent us from proceeding with motions when she the Leader of the House is denying us an opportunity thinks that that might produce the wrong result. If I 1055 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1056 may say so, the right hon. and learned Lady is confusing business motion, it would be very helpful for us to know her position as a partisan member of the Government the intentions of the Leader of the House in relation to with her position as Leader of the House. motions 69 and 72. Perhaps because she did not think that there was enough time during business questions, Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) she declined to answer specific questions on the subject, (LD): Perhaps the Leader of the House is simply trying one of which was asked by the shadow Leader of the to reinforce the case for a business committee, thus House, my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West encouraging the House to vote for it later. Hampshire (Sir George Young). I hope that she will respond to them now. Mr. Chope: That is a good point. The same point was made powerfully by my right hon. Friend the Member Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): I may be for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) during business questions able to help the hon. Gentleman a little. If the House earlier today. The rather glib response of the Leader of were to approve the motion on the House business the House was that of course she was in favour of a committee, we would no longer be forced to be a business committee; but why do we have to set up a supplicant of Government in order to ensure that our Business Committee in order to be able to put on the own business is discussed. Surely that it is the issue that agenda for debate and resolution in the House the we need to nail down today. recommendations of the Procedure Committee, which Mr. Chope: The hon. Gentleman has made a point have already been presented? Members of the Committee that has been made already by both the hon. Member were strongly pressured to produce our report in timely for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert fashion so that there would be an opportunity the full Smith) and my right hon. Friend the Member for East report, and the recommendations, to be considered by Yorkshire, and I agree with him; but what he is talking the House before the end of this Parliament. about is something for the future. What he is not talking about is how to deal with the issue raised by the Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Does my hon. Procedure Committee, which met on more occasions Friend agree that 2010 will feature in the great and long that it would have normally, specifically in order to be history of the House of Commons as the year that gave able to present its recommendations to the House in us the opportunity to reform this place as it has never good time before the dissolution of the present Parliament. been reformed before? Unfortunately, as a result of Even if all the hon. Gentleman’s recommendations are today’s antics the reforms will be half-baked, and the passed today, that will not enable the House, of its own public will not like that at all. volition, to deal with motions 69 and 72 before the end of the present Session, thus enabling resolutions to be Mr. Chope: My hon. Friend has made an important in place at the beginning of the next Parliament in time point, which speaks for itself. for the re-election of the Speaker. What we have now is a lacuna. Earlier, the Leader of the House was not prepared to tell us when motions 69 Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): As I said during our and 72—which are on the Order Paper in her name but last debate on this subject, last week or the week before, will not be debated today, and which arise directly from the root cause of the problems is the fact that the the first report of the Procedure Committee—would be Executive control the Standing Orders of the House. tabled in a way that would allow us to debate and vote We must address that as part of the issue to which my on them. Despite repeated questioning, the Leader of hon. Friend is referring, and the issue of the House the House refused to answer. She even refused to confirm Business Committee, because it runs very deep. It has or deny my suggestion that she would be intent on often been said that the moment when Front Benchers withdrawing those two motions, thereby, having led us are seen to be agreeing with each other is the moment at up the hill, taking us down again. which to look for the problem that is being generated. I regard the way in which this procedure is being Mr. Chope: I agree absolutely, which is why I tabled conducted as intolerable. It obviously reinforces the an amendment to a motion that suggests that if X, Y or case for a Business Committee, but until that Committee Z were done, there will be various consequences, but is up and running, we shall remain in our present does not answer the question as to what would happen position. What has happened today has raised a great if the Government did not do what we would normally many suspicions about whether, as a result of the motions expect; namely to act quickly after the Queen’s Speech with which we will be dealing, we shall be able to wrest in a new Parliament. I remember being a Member when control over the proceedings of the House away from it took six or nine months to get the Select Committees the Executive and the shadow Executive and give it to set up, because the then Conservative Government were the legislature. That is certainly what I want to happen. reluctant to appoint them. They thought it would suit their own purposes not to have those Committees set up Mr. Greg Knight: The motion provides for two hours to scrutinise the Government’s activities. The motions of debate. Does my hon. Friend agree that we would should ensure that these Select Committees are set up need no more than two hours in which to debate motions 69 very early. and 72? It cannot be a question of time. The behaviour of the Leader of the House in not putting forward motions 69 and 72 means that we would be well Mr. Chope: I do agree, but, in fairness to the Leader advised to look at the small print in the motions before of the House, she has not put forward that explanation. the House. If the Government can give themselves some Indeed, she has not put forward any explanation for not wriggle room, they certainly will. We have seen the tabling the motions for debate today. When we are Government wriggling in a most unparliamentary fashion considering whether or not we wish to support the today. 1057 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1058

2pm 2.5 pm Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): Thank Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): I agree with you, Madam Speaker, for calling me one last time to everything that has been said, most particularly the speak on an issue that I feel I have been living and point that this underlines the need for a House business breathing since the end of last summer. I spoke early in committee to take control of these events and, as my the debate last week and I will try not to cover some of hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) said the—[Interruption.] I am sorry. I have made a mistake; before leaving the Chamber, the issue of control of I thought this was the main debate. Standing Orders needs to be addressed. I shall be brief, but I wish to ask about the reference 2.1 pm in the motion to the suspension of Standing Order No. 41A. How does the Leader of the House decide Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): I which Divisions should be taken on the day and which am very sorry that the Leader of the House has not should be deferred? My understanding is that deferred indicated that she wishes to respond to the points that Divisions were introduced to make it easier for large have been made by my hon. Friends. I speak totally numbers of right hon. and hon. Members to participate dispassionately and objectively—I shall not be in the in Divisions. To that extent, it has made it easier for the next House—but the very first business to be taken by Government to get some of their business through as it the newly elected House of Commons, be it in April, means that they do not have to keep people here on May or June, is the election of the Speaker. I do not Thursdays. In my rather naive way, this seems to me to know how the House will vote on these motions; I am be a very good example of where we could give all right not even sure how I would vote myself. But whether it is hon. and hon. Members an opportunity to vote on to vote for an open or a secret ballot, it is not for the these extremely important motions. Leader of the House to deny the House the opportunity It is understandable that this sort of House business to make that choice. comes up on a Thursday, but why was Standing Order I am sure that this must be deeply embarrassing to No. 41A suspended? I would be grateful if the Leader you, Mr. Speaker. You have been such a champion of of the House gave her view. I rather look forward to a democracy, making it plain throughout your time here— House Business Committee being able to decide when long before you stood for the Speakership—that you there should and should not be deferred Divisions as were first, second and last a democrat. You would not that would be an improvement on the present situation, wish to be given some extraordinary artificial protection in which the responsibility rests on her shoulders. by the Leader of the House from a secret ballot if you were fortunate enough to be returned as a Member of 2.7 pm this House at the next election and then seek the Speakership. It is terribly important that the Leader of Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I am dismayed—I the House gives the House the opportunity described trust that you will be, too, Mr. Speaker—at the manner by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire in which the House is being treated this afternoon. You (Mr. Knight). were kind enough to give evidence to the Procedure Committee, as did the Leader of the House, the shadow The report from the Procedure Committee is part of Leader of the House and a number of experts. The the package of papers that we were all given at the Vote Procedure Committee went to a great deal of time and Office for today’s debate. The motion on the election of trouble to produce the report in short order, as my right Deputy Speakers has been tabled by the Leader of the hon. and hon. Friends have said, to enable it to be House. As my right hon. Friend has also made plain, his debated and voted on before dissolution. Committee did not come to a conclusion on whether the Speaker should be elected by secret or open ballot. The motion indicates a time limit of two hours. By He has made plain his own detachment or agnosticism, my miserable reckoning, and even allowing for my if I can put it that way, on the issue. That is a position continuing for a couple of minutes, that takes us up to that I share. All that he and his Committee colleagues about 4.15 pm. [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] Whenever it is, have asked is that the House be given the opportunity the House could sit until 6 o’clock, so where is the rush? for which the Committee asked. It is as simple as that. Why is not possible for us to debate properly and The Leader of the House should speak for us all and it thoroughly the recommendations of the Procedure is not for her to trust us only selectively. It is terribly Committee this afternoon? It is not now possible because important that every one of these substantive the motions are not above the line on the Order Paper. recommendations in the Wright report and in the Procedure But the Leader of the House must stand at the Dispatch Committee report be voted on before the end of this Box in a minute and give the House a good and clear Parliament so that the new Parliament begins with new reason why the Procedure Committee’s report has been rules and a clean slate and knows what it is doing. If it is cherry-picked, why matters are not being debated properly, that the Speaker should be elected by open ballot, God and why she is seeking to deny the House the opportunity bless the Speaker and God bless the House. If the to vote on the unanimous recommendation of the House takes a different decision, equally God bless the Committee. speaker and God bless the House. 2.9 pm I urge the Leader to give an undertaking—she cannot do it this afternoon—that in the next two or three weeks Ms Harman: On the question of deferred Divisions, there will be a brief opportunity of an hour or an hour one of the reasons for introducing them was to enable and a half for my right hon. Friend the Member for Members to vote other than very late at night. Deferred East Yorkshire to present his recommendation and for Divisions do not apply to motions to which amendments the House to vote upon it. have been tabled. That makes sense. It is simple for hon. 1059 Business of the House4 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 1060

Members to vote in a deferred Division on a simple House Committee to deal with Back-Bench business straightforward motion, but it would be difficult to do and also an amendment to give that House Committee so on a motion with amendments, or amendments to the opportunity to deal with Government business too, amendments. I am a strong advocate of deferred Divisions as well as a whole range of other issues. These are very as a means of avoiding late-night voting. important, substantive matters, and I suggest that we One of the reasons for putting this debate on today, should not take up time debating something that is not rather than at the end of the debate last Monday, was so before the House, although I accept that Members are that we would not be voting very late at night. Instead, questioning why it is not before the House. Members can be present at the debate this afternoon I also ask Members to let us agree to this business and then get on with the voting. I hope that that motion without a Division, because if there is a Division, answers that point. I am sure that the motion will be passed, and all that I feel very uncomfortable indeed that I appear to be will have been achieved is that time will have been taken crossing swords with the Procedure Committee, because out of the debate. Therefore, if Members call out against I think it does extremely good work; indeed, I pay the motion, it will avail them of nothing except taking tribute to it. Members know that they do not make 15 minutes out of the available time in order to vote. themselves national figures of great popularity by serving on that Committee, but they do a good job on behalf of Mr. Knight rose— the House by taking forward detailed procedural issues. Somebody has got to do that, and they do it extremely Ms Harman: I shall give way in a moment. well. As has been said, they have taken time and trouble I do not stand back from the fact that I have time-limited in their work on the matter that we are currently discussing, the next debate to two hours, because we want to have and they have produced detailed work not only on the the debate on the substance of the motions and then we election of the Deputy Speakers but on petitioning and want to vote on them, and there will be quite a number a range of other issues. The House has benefited from of votes. Afterwards, Members will be able to return to all of that. their constituencies. I do not want to get into a detailed debate about a Before I sit down and commend the motion to the motion that is not before the House—we are currently House, I shall give way to the right hon. Member for discussing the business motion—but I would like to East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), who is the Procedure respond briefly on the election of the Speaker. Deputy Committee Chair— Speakers are elected at general elections under party banners. They stand for election like any other Member of the House, as Labour, Liberal Democrat or Conservative. Sir Patrick Cormack: Chairman. The Speaker’s situation is different: the Speaker stands for election as Speaker of the House and, by convention, Ms Harman: The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire the other parties do not stand against the Speaker. is Chair of the Procedure Committee, and I think he There is, therefore, a difference between Deputy Speakers has done an excellent job and I very much enjoy working and Speakers. I know that that does not address the with him, so I am sorry that he is, no doubt, going to be issue— very unpleasant in his intervention.

Mr. Greg Knight: Will the Leader of the House give Mr. Knight: I thank the right hon. and learned Lady way? for giving way, and I hope I am never very unpleasant to her or anyone else in the House. Ms Harman: If the right hon. Gentleman will let me The Procedure Committee accepts that the Speaker is continue, I will give way before I conclude if I have not in a totally different position from Deputy Speakers, answered the point he wishes to raise. and the argument that the right hon. and learned Lady I know that my comments on Speaker and Deputy just put forward is a strong one, but it is just that: an Speaker do not address the annoyance that is felt at the argument for debate. She is denying us that very debate fact that I control what is put down for the House to in which that argument could be put, however, and I debate. We have already taken steps to deal with that have to say to her that I find that indefensible. Also, if issue, however, because last Monday we agreed that we the remarks that she made to my hon. Friend the did not have to wait for a House business committee, Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) behind the Chair because a private Member could table a motion. Indeed, are true, she ought to be ashamed of herself. after the election, a private Member could table motions 69 and 72 and have them debated and voted on. This is Ms Harman: I do not know whether the right hon. not just a question of proving why we need a House Gentleman heard the remarks that I made to the hon. business committee, therefore, as we have already given Member for Christchurch, behind the Speaker’s Chair, Back-Bench Members the opportunity to bring a matter but I do not remember his being there. I said nothing before the House for a debate and a vote. about my own views and intentions. I actually cast aspersions on the hon. Gentleman’s. No light was shed Mr. Knight rose— on my views, therefore, in case anybody has run away with that idea. That is all I can say about that. I would Ms Harman: I will give way in a moment. not want to repeat to the House what I said about the We now have now got a lot of substantive business hon. Member for Christchurch, and I do not know why before the House. We have the election of Deputy he has raised this. Speakers and the election of Chairs and members of Select Committees. We have the establishment of a Mr. Chope rose— 1061 Business of the House 4 MARCH 2010 1062

Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman has merely created Chair (Terminology) a cloud of suspicion, when we should just be getting on with the job. I shall allow him to intervene, but I might regret it. 2.18 pm The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Mr. Chope: I am grateful to the right hon. and Harman): I beg to move, learned Lady for giving way on this issue. Can she tell (1) That this House approves recommendation 3 of the First me why she has tabled motion 69? Does she intend at Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of some stage that we should have the opportunity to Commons, Session 2008-09, HC 1117; and debate and vote on it, and if not, why not? (2) That accordingly, in each place where they occur in any Standing Order related to Public Business, Order or Resolution of Ms Harman: When I get to make my speech in the the House, except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4) below: substantive debate, the hon. Gentleman will hear me (a) for “chairman” there shall be substituted “chair”; saying that we have made a lot of changes and we have (b) for “chairmen” there shall be substituted “chairs”; and an opportunity to make some further changes tonight, (c) for “Chairmen’s Panel” there shall be substituted “Panel of but that this is not the end of the process. Members Chairs”; need not fear that their work will be in vain, therefore, as this is an ongoing process, and I think we have made (3) That the following changes to Standing Orders be made: good progress already and have the opportunity of (a) In Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House)— making further progress tonight. With that, I commend (i) in line 25, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of the this business motion to the House. chair”, Question put and agreed to. (ii) in line 32, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of the chair”, and Ordered, (iii) in line 37, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the questions the chair”; necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name (b) In Standing Order No. 11 (Friday sittings), in line 29, leave of Ms Harriet Harman not later than two hours after the out “chairman” and insert commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments “occupant of the chair”; and selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; the Questions (c) In Standing Order No. 35 (Dilatory motion in abuse of the may be put after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order rules of the House), line 10, leave out “chairman” and insert No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. “occupant of the chair”; (4) That this order shall not apply to the titles of Chairman of Mr. Leigh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You Ways and Means, Deputy Chairman or Chairmen or the Lord have rightly made your name by defending and promoting Chairman of Committees where they occur in any Standing democracy. I believe you could solve this issue at a Order, Order or Resolution of the House. stroke if you stood up and said that you would encourage the Leader of the House to facilitate a vote. You have Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss nothing to fear from this, Mr. Speaker—it is only motions 4 to 8. democracy—and it is in your hands. Ms Harman: The House now has an opportunity to Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for consider and vote on the recommendations of the Select his attempted point of order, but he has been in the Committee on House of Commons Reform. That includes House since 1983 without interruption—he is in his the motions that I have tabled and the amendments that 27th year of service—and he knows perfectly well that have been selected. what he has just said is simply not a point of order. We had a constructive debate on the Committee’s We shall now proceed to the substantive business. As proposals last Monday. At the end of that debate, 11 of Members will be aware, I have issued my selection of the Government’s 16 motions were agreed to unanimously, amendments, which has been distributed in the usual without Division. What we agreed included the following way. on strengthening Select Committees: a time frame for the establishment of Select Committees within six weeks of the start of a new Parliament; reducing the size of some Committees to make them more effective, with a standard membership of only 11; and a review of the role, resources and tasks of Select Committees by the Liaison Committee. We agreed that there would be a vote in the next Parliament on September sittings. We agreed that we should have greater engagement of the public with our proceedings by providing more opportunities for them to influence draft Bills. We agreed a range of reforms of the petitioning system, including a process for petitions to trigger debates; and we agreed to give more power to Back Benchers, with a new procedure for them to move substantive motions that can be voted on. Today we have the opportunity to go further. We will have a further short debate and then proceed to vote on the remaining proposals of the Commons Reform 1063 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1064

Committee. As we have already debated these two weeks of the start of a Parliament. This is a matter recommendations for many hours, I propose to speak that the Reform Committee envisages should continue very fast—I was going to say that I would speak briefly, to be settled by negotiation between the parties, but this but I realise that I have quite a long speech to make, so I is ultimately a matter for the judgment of the House. I shall make up in speed what I am not able to do in shall not be supporting the amendment, but it will not length. be the end of the world if the House passes it. The House needs reform to give more power to Back Benchers, to give the House more power over the Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): On the Government. We have already made progress on election of the members and the Chair of the Procedure strengthening the House of Commons over the past Committee, does the Leader of the House accept that it 13 years. would be very odd if the House was not to elect those members, given the increased role that the Procedure Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): Committee will have? It will have a crucial role in taking Will the Leader of the House give way? forward these reforms in future, so is this not a matter of the Wright Committee having left this out by oversight Ms Harman: This is House business; the motions are rather than intent? on the Order Paper, there is no whipping and there is no insight I can give that hon. Members cannot work out Ms Harman: If my hon. Friend, who has done a lot for themselves by reading it, so I am not going to take of work on these issues, takes that view, he does not any interventions. I say that because this is not about need to agree with me and he can vote in his own way on me; it is about every individual Member of this House that amendment. making their decision. The hon. Gentleman can therefore ask himself the question and answer it. Mr. Llwyd rose— We are not starting from scratch; the proposals that we return to today are not the beginning of reform, nor will they be the end of reform, but they are substantial Ms Harman: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if reforms and, once again, I wish to record my thanks to he still wants to ask a question and has not lost the will my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase to live. (Dr. Wright) and the other members of the Committee for their work. I thank him for his proposal to establish Mr. Llwyd: I am almost there, listening to the right the Committee, which I readily supported. hon. and learned Lady. What I would like to know is how she envisages the rights of minority parties being Today’s business enables Members to have a series of accommodated within the Back-Bench Procedure votes on the Commons Reform Committee’s proposals. Committee. I shall address the motions in the order in which they will be put to the House. Motion 3 removes the term “chairman” from the Standing Orders and replaces it Ms Harman: There is no proposal at the moment for with the term “chair”, and I support it. Motion 4 changing the arrangements in relation to the Procedure creates a new Standing Order with effect from the Committee, so I think that matter will just have to be beginning of the next Parliament, which provides for a dealt with in the usual way. However, I will take an process for electing the Chairs of departmental and opportunity to ask the Deputy Leader of the House to similar Select Committees by secret ballot of the whole get back to the hon. Gentleman on that when she makes House, based on party distributions proposed by the her concluding remarks. Speaker and agreed by the parties and the House. Amendment (p), which stands in the name of the hon. Mr. Llwyd rose— Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) and others, would add the Procedure Committee to the list of Ms Harman: If the hon. Gentleman wants to make Committees whose Chairs are to be elected in this way. an intervention that suggests the answer to this, he may The Commons Reform Committee recommended that do so. this procedure should apply to “departmental and similar select committees”. Mr. Llwyd: No, no. What I would like to ask the right The Procedure Committee is not a departmental or hon. and learned Lady is how she will accommodate the similar Select Committee; it is, as we Latin scholars interests of minority parties on the Back-Bench business would say, sui generis. The amendment goes beyond the committee. scope of the recommendation and for that reason I shall be voting against it. Ms Harman: That question shows why we have further Nor shall I be supporting amendment (o), which details to work out on that, and I agree that it is an stands in the names of the hon. Members for Christchurch important matter. and for North Thanet (Mr. Gale). Amendment (q), which stands in the name of the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Several hon. Members rose— Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), seeks to ensure that the Chair of that Committee will always be an Ms Harman: I have realised that my “no giving way” Opposition Member. This is already the long-established policy is not going to cut the mustard, so I will just convention and there is no intention to change it. The finish this paragraph and then give way. chair of that Committee has always and should always Amendment (o) would allow any Member of the be held by an Opposition Member, and I hope that on House to move a motion allocating Select Committee the basis of that assurance he does not feel the need to Chairs to parties if the party leaders fail to do so within press his amendment to a vote. 1065 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1066

Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the Leader of press the amendment to a Division and for other hon. the House agree that there are a number of Committees— Members to decide how to vote. I have simply offered not just the Public Accounts Committee—that ought to the House my views. be chaired by a Member of the Opposition? I have sat Motion 7 approves the Wright Committee’s on the European Scrutiny Committee now for 25 years recommendation for a Back-Bench business committee and it has always been the case that the chairmanship of to schedule Back-Bench business. Amendment (b) in that Committee was in the gift of the Opposition. Does the name of the Leader of the Opposition and amendment she agree that that should apply, as it does to the Public (c) in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Accounts Committee and the Committees that consider Cannock Chase call for the establishment of a Back-Bench secondary legislation, because these are scrutiny business committee in time for the beginning of the next Committees? Parliament. I think it is right that the House should be able to reach a decision tonight on the establishment of Ms Harman: We have brought forward the proposals a committee. that were made by the Wright Committee. If the hon. The effect of the two amendments would be broadly Gentleman agrees with them, he can support them, and similar, but I personally suggest that colleagues support if he does not, he can vote against them. There is an amendment (b), which provides greater clarity on the evolving process and no doubt other Committees that number of days the Back-Bench business committee are not departmental or similar will have to be considered will have at its disposal. It also offers a more flexible as we go along. approach—[Interruption.] There is no need for hon. Motion 5 runs alongside motion 4 and provides Members to protest. They have the motion and both the a mechanism for Chairs to resign or to be removed by a amendments and they can decide for themselves which no-confidence vote in the Select Committee so that a to vote for. I would say, if I can just get on with giving ballot for a new Chair can take place. Without that my humble opinion, that amendment (b) provides greater provision there would be no effective trigger for replacing clarity on the number of days that the Back-Bench a Chair once that Chair had been elected. business committee will have at its disposal. It also Motion 6 endorses the Wright Committee’s proposal offers a more flexible approach for the new committee for the election of Select Committee members, with whereas amendment (c) includes a number of stipulations each party being responsible for electing its own members that could have the effect of tying the hands of a newly by secret ballot. My right hon. Friend the Member for established business committee. I think flexibility will Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) and several of his colleagues be important in the successful operation of the new on the Liaison Committee have tabled amendment (a) system so that the business committee has maximum to the motion, which would allow the Speaker and the freedom of operation. Committee of Selection to propose to the House that a I will also, as I have already said— Select Committee member whose attendance was less than 60 per cent over the course of a Session should be Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): discharged. I agree with the Reform Committee’s Will the right hon. and learned Lady give way on that recommendation that there should be “clear consequences” point? for non-attendance by Select Committee members, but I think we should reflect further before we embark on Ms Harman: No. the Liaison Committee’s approach. I will also be supporting amendment (a) to motion 7, The competing claims on Members’ time will sometimes which is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member mean that individuals’ attendance drops below 60 per for Cannock Chase. The amendment endorses the cent. for perfectly good reasons. In fact, six of the hon. establishment of a House business committee, during Members who signed the motion attended less than the course of the next Parliament, to include Government 60 per cent. of Liaison Committee meetings in the last business. However, I do not agree with amendment (d), Session and the Liaison Committee’s overall attendance which lists a number of the committee’s other was only 50.6 per cent., so I am sure they will accept the recommendations to be considered in the next Parliament. point about the demands on hon. Members’ time. We I think it is right to leave that decision to the next can think further about the matter so I ask them not to Parliament, so I shall not support it and shall vote press for a vote. The principle was right but we need to against it for that reason. think about how we take it forward. Dr. Harris: Will the Leader of the House give way? Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) (Lab): It is because those very factors need to be taken into account that the Ms Harman: The hon. Member for Oxford, West and amendment is phrased in a way that makes it an enabling Abingdon (Dr. Harris), among others, will get to speak. amendment—it does not say that the Speaker “should” The hon. Gentleman has played a leading part in the recommend such action, but leaves it to the Speaker’s debate. I do not have any better answers, and I am sure discretion. There is no compulsion about it. he will value his own opinion more than mine when it comes to deciding how he will vote. This is House Ms Harman: My right hon. Friend’s amendment business and we are now at the point of just making takes a particular track and sets a particular percentage decisions. level, and it might be that we can do better than that. I have tabled motion 8 to give effect to the Procedure However, we might, in the end, find that that is the best Committee’s recommendations on the election of Deputy way we can do it. I know that the members of that Speakers by ballot. Although the motion is new, the Committee have given it a great deal of thought. Obviously, changes were approved by the House in principle on it is entirely for hon. Members to decide whether to 6 January. Motion 8 moves the matter forward by 1067 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1068 providing an opportunity for the House to agree the Parliament and making it more effective, more accountable Procedure Committee’s detailed proposals for putting and more relevant to the people outside it. That is why I the recommendations into action. I again thank the intend to support the Government’s motions on the Committee for its work. We will be allowing a free vote election of Select Committee Chairmen and members, on this matter and on all the Reform Committee’s as well as the amendments that would establish a House proposals. business committee during the next Parliament and give All of this is House business, and the House today further consideration in the next Parliament to all the has an opportunity to approve the remainder of the remaining recommendations that the Government have Committee’s recommendations. Let me conclude by left on the cutting room floor. I hope that the right hon. saying that today is an important milestone in the and learned Lady will demonstrate a similar commitment history of the reform of this House. I hope we will seize to reform when she is in the Lobbies. the opportunity to agree this package of reforms which, As for the amendment on the election of the Chairman if passed today, will, when added to what we agreed last of the Procedure Committee, that is not one of the Monday, be the most far-reaching package of reforms changes advocated by the Wright Committee, which ever agreed. It will take forward the Prime Minister’s merely proposed electing the Chairmen of departmental commitment, which he set out in “The Governance of Select Committees. I just make the point that it seems Britain”, to make the Executive more accountable to slightly illogical not to extend such elections to other Parliament and to reinvigorate our democracy. We will Committees in addition to the Procedure Committee. be ensuring that there is more power for Back Benchers On the Back-Bench Business Committee, I intend to and we will be strengthening the House’s ability to hold vote for amendment (b), which I should like to move at the Government to account. I commend the motions to the appropriate move. the House. Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): All the 2.32 pm advice that I have taken from the Clerks suggests that, because the Procedure Committee itself will be elected, Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): it is something of a lacuna in the report that its Chairman There are 69 minutes left for this debate, so I propose to will not be. I hope that my Front Benchers will support follow the right hon. and learned Lady’s example and that amendment. keep my remarks to a basic minimum. I set out my views on most of these issues last Sir George Young: As I said, it is a free vote, but I Monday when I urged the House to seize this opportunity make the point that this was not an original for reform and to make faster progress than was envisaged recommendation of the Wright Committee. in the Government’s initial resolutions. I note in passing On the Back-Bench committee, I intend to vote for that it is sad that we have roughly eight sitting days left amendment (b). I do not agree with the Government’s before the likely date of Dissolution in which to make resolution, as it fails to get the committee up and the changes to our Standing Orders that are needed to running by the beginning of the next Parliament, which bring in some of the motions before us at the beginning is my preferred time scale. As I have said before, I want of the next Parliament. I shall not repeat the contrast the Back-Bench committee to be given progressively that has been made between the speed and urgency of more influence—first over the set-piece debates, in whatever the Wright Committee’s work and the foot-dragging of configuration it prefers, and then over the general debates. the Government. That would then lead to its being given a day or half a In addition to the reforms of the Wright Committee day a week for Back-Bench business. and all the proposed amendments, some of which raise new issues, we are addressing the Procedure Committee’s The Wright Committee report is absolutely clear, report on the election of Deputy Speakers. That sits a stating that these proposals would little uneasily with the comment made by the right hon. “inevitably need implementation in stages.” and learned Lady last week in business questions that, It recognises that the pieces of the jigsaw should not be as far as she was concerned, put together all at once on day one, and that brings me “we have debated the Wright Committee report enough”.—[Official to the difficulties that I see with amendment (c). That Report, 25 February 2010; Vol. 506, c. 452.] amendment risks making worse one of the central Two hours might have been enough to debate the Wright problems that the Wright Committee has sought to Committee, but we now have an extra report to debate address—the lack of time for the Report stage of Bills. in the time allotted for one. As has been said several The assumption in paragraphs 31 and 32 of the times today, given that the principle behind the reports report is that, whatever approach we adopt, the totality is the empowerment of Back Benchers, it is ironic that of sitting days and hours should remain roughly the the Government have programmed the debate to restrict same. Given the finite amount of available time, the Back-Bench contributions. If, as I hope, we support more time that is spent on general debates, the less time, these reforms in the Division Lobbies later, the House by definition, will be available for Government business. may never again be forced to plead for more time from My amendment (b) would allocate 27 days in total to the Government to debate its own business. The past the Back-Bench committee—the 15 set-piece days, and few months have demonstrated more effectively even the 12 general debates. Amendment (c), by virtue of its than the report why the Government need to relinquish endorsement of recommendation 30, would allocate their control of Parliament’s agenda. the committee one day a week, which by the Wright I believe that the resolutions represent our best Committee’s reckoning amounts to 35 days. The difference opportunity for decades to start rebalancing the terms between the two amendments is that mine could allow of trade away from the Executive and to start strengthening seven extra days for the Report stage of Bills, whereas 1069 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1070

[Sir George Young] on my views to the Committee in an informal session, and I am glad that two of my suggestions have been that would be lost if we opt for amendment (c). I urge incorporated into the report. the House to think carefully about that before making I agree with the Procedure Committee that, unlike its decision later. with the election of the Speaker, there is no need for Deputy Speakers to issue manifestos, because it is an Dr. Evan Harris: As a member of the Wright Committee, entirely different kind of role. I should make it clear I would like to explain our approach to the right hon. that, in supporting the Committee’s report, I do not Gentleman. I agree with much of what he has said want to suggest in any way that the current system of about the 27 days, but topical debates ought to be a selection of Deputy Speakers does not deliver excellent matter for the Back-Bench business committee. When candidates to the Speaker’s team, which it does. added up, they amount to another seven days. The I hope, Mr. Speaker, that when you blow the final other three days for his 35 could be used for debates on whistle at 3.41, the reformers will be able to take away Members’ pay and allowances, for example, or for matters from the pitch some of the trophies. such as those relating to the hon. Member whose offices were raided by the police. Such matters should rightly be for the House and not in the purview of the Government, 2.40 pm whichever party is in office. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I Sir George Young: I agree that the Back-Bench committee listened to what the Leader of the House had to say should allocate the subjects for topical debates. I conceded about her own tactic in providing time for others, which that on Monday, and that should happen. I also think was to speak allegretto. I will maintain a more stately the committee should allocate the 15 set-piece days and andante, but I hope to be brief. I repeat the point that the 12 days devoted to general debates. The Wright today’s debate is not about what we say from Front-Bench Committee wants an extra seven days, and my fear is positions; it is about what right hon. and hon. Members that that would mean less time on Report. have to say on the recommendations. We have already Paragraph 109 of the Wright report states that the had the debate on many of these issues. lack of time on Report is the I will briefly give an opinion on the points before us “single greatest cause of dissatisfaction” today. I find it difficult to get really worked up about motion 3, but it is better to refer to the position as with the current scheduling of legislative business. That “Chair” rather than “Chairman”. I note in passing that is why I personally prefer the configuration in my those who are most adamant that they will never accept amendment (b) to that in amendment (c). the word “Chair” are quite happy to refer to “the I am not standing in the way of progress. An initial Crown” on the ground that a hat is somehow more amendment proposed kicking the Back-Bench committee appropriate than a piece of furniture for describing a into touch—that is, into the next Parliament—whereas position. I am not sure that I understand that distinction. I think it should be established much earlier. That now I hope that we will be able to support motion 4 and appears to command widespread support. all the amendments. The position of the Chair of the On the House business committee, we have seen three Procedure Committee is important and I am glad that victories: first, in ensuring that its consideration was that amendment has been tabled. The Public Accounts within the original terms of reference; secondly, in Committee should be chaired by a Chairman from the ensuring that it can be voted on today; and thirdly—and official Opposition. That is a sensible provision within I am grateful for this—in securing the support of the our Standing Orders. Leader of the House for the committee, soon after she I agree with motion 5. I also agree with motion 6. The had initially ruled it out. Chairman of the Liaison Committee brings forward an We have made real progress, but I think we should go important point about non-attendance at Committees. further. We should end the automatic guillotine at Whether this is the right way to deal with it I do not Committee stage, and abolish the Modernisation of the know, but it has been notable that some major departmental House of Commons Committee. I also think we should Committees have struggled to reach a quorum on too enable Select Committee Chairmen to launch their reports many occasions. If this is not the answer, we must find on the Floor of the House—as the Chairman of the another. I would support this because it is a permissive Defence Committee could have done today, with his power, not a requirement, and I hope we might consider report on procurement. In addition, we should allow that today. the Opposition to trade Opposition days for topical The most important matter is motion 7 and the statements, and introduce broader measures to re-engage amendments to it. I heard what the right hon. Member the public, reduce the size of Parliament and cut the for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) said in costs of politics. supporting his amendment (b). I am not persuaded that Finally, on the election of the Deputy Speakers, I it does not provide for a more restrictive solution than welcome the report from the Procedure Committee, amendment (c). The two are in direct opposition. If which is well-reasoned and eminently sensible. I look (b) is passed, (c) cannot be put. Therefore, I invite hon. forward to hearing the Chairman of the Committee, my Members to oppose amendment (b) and support right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire amendment (c), which is a more satisfactory solution. If (Mr. Knight), explain the proposals in greater detail. As proof of that is needed, Members need only look at the someone who has had passing experience of the system collusion between Members of the two Front Benches of election for Speaker, using both a secret and an open here to see where the Executive would like us to vote. I ballot, I was pleased to have the opportunity to pass invite the House to vote for amendment (c). 1071 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1072

However, most importantly, I hope that amendment spoken, directed most of his remarks. Reading the (a) is passed. This is the key vote to give control of the Wright Committee report and last week’s debate, I was timetable of debate in the House back to Members of struck forcibly by the degree to which the context and the House, taking it away from the Executive. If we culture of the proposals are, first, rooted in most Members’ cannot achieve that, we will have failed as a House in experience of the House: one in which the Government our debates on this matter. I hope that the House is up of the day have a comfortable majority; and—with deep to the task of agreeing to amendment (a) today. I respect to members of the minority parties—one in support amendment (d) because those are the matters which there are not so many minority parties and few the Wright Committee considered, and which the Leader non-party Members. That might not be the structure of of the House for some reason would not put before the the next House of Commons, and nothing says that it is House. They should have been put before the House, compelled to be the structure of future Houses, either. they have been now and we can agree to the amendment. Further to the structure of and voting power in the Motion 8 concerns the election of the Deputy Speakers. House, the second point that runs culturally through I know how hard the Procedure Committee worked on the proposals is an assumption of understanding and this, and it came forward with cogent views on the co-operation between all players. That will be absolutely election. I have just one caveat, which is that if we are crucial if a business committee is to work, whether it is successful in the early amendments—I say “we”; those a Back-Bench business committee or a House business who think like I do that we need a business committee committee. However, having served on a House Committee, of the House—the Chairman of Ways and Means will as only one or two other participants in our debate have a new and important full-time role in organising have, I do not share the assumption and confidence of the business of the House. That suggests a need for an all those who spoke in last week’s debate that such additional Deputy Speaker. I made that point in evidence understanding and co-operation is a given. to the Wright Committee, but today’s change in Standing That brings me to my second concern. I have as much Orders will not provide for that eventuality, and I regret experience as anybody—certainly anybody in the Chamber that. today—of introducing reform to the House in the teeth, sometimes, of vociferous opposition, and I have learned Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): The Procedure that it is best to proceed by experiment. I have no Committee considered that very point, and we are of quarrel with motion 7 or the establishment of a Back-Bench the view that the matter should be revisited in the next committee at whatever point, but, although I know that Parliament. the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome made amendment (a) the touchstone of whether one is for Mr. Heath: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman reform, I am concerned about the House carrying it for that. If we agree to that new role for the Chairman without any experience in a different Parliament of how of Ways and Means subsequent to today’s votes, however, a Back-Bench committee would work. we will need to prepare for that, so that in the new I suspect, with deep respect to the motives and content Parliament we can deal with it as a first instance. of the observations made in our opening debate on the I need not detain the House any longer. Some have business motion, that we could see every week of the described today as an historic day of reform—I am next Parliament dominated by a wrangle—not necessarily sorry, but I cannot bring myself to think that way. An a good-tempered wrangle—about what the business of Everest of reform is necessary if we are to bring this the House should be. That would not do anything to House and our politics generally up to speed—into the enhance our standing in the eyes of the public. I cannot 21st century—and make it fit for purpose. Evolution is reconcile it with my conscience to allow all this to go a slow process at the moment, and we still do not fit the through with a claim that it is the best thing since sliced ecological niche that we need to fit. If we were climbing bread, particularly—I say this with the greatest possible Everest, we would simply be at base camp, but if the deference and respect to all hon. Members who have House cannot even get to base camp we will have failed taken part in these debates—when so many of the the people who have elected us and want us to make this voices that are heard are those of Members who do not House fit for purpose. intend to be here in the next Parliament and will not have to pick up the pieces. 2.46 pm Mr. Heath: I am listening to the right hon. Lady with Margaret Beckett (Derby, South) (Lab): I am sorry care and respect. She says that this is an untried system that I was not able to take part in last week’s debate that has not been experienced in our Parliament; no, it about these issues, but I have read it with care. I rise to has not, but it has in many other Parliaments, including speak, briefly, only because I share the universal view of the Scottish Parliament, where it works very well. Why Members that it is important to do everything that we on earth are we incapable of adapting to a new system can to increase the public’s confidence in the House. and making it work? However, I must confess to a degree of scepticism about the contribution that all the changes will make to that Margaret Beckett: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, process, even if they are all carried, and I think that I think that perhaps he was not listening with sufficient many, if not all, will be. The public’s confidence will care to what I said. I did not say that this is a system increase when they believe and have evidence that their that the House cannot make work, but that it is a top priorities are also ours. system into which we are intending to proceed without That brings me to my concerns about the variety of any kind of experiment or trial to see how we make it proposals before the House. My first concern relates to work for the best. If I may say so, I think that I probably motion 7 and amendment (a), to which the hon. Member have as much experience as the hon. Gentleman of for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), who has just studying the experiences of other Parliaments and hearing 1073 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1074

[Margaret Beckett] Frome (Mr. Heath) and his parliamentary colleagues, but we did think that there was an argument to say that observations from them. I gently say to him, as regards this should be reviewed in the next Parliament, along reforms that it is proclaimed that other Parliaments with any changes that may have occurred to the role of have made, that their parliamentarians and politicians the Deputy Speakers. will speak fervently of them in public, but not always In our view, the rules for electing the Deputy Speakers quite so fervently in private conversation. [Interruption.] should reflect those for electing the Speaker. We believe No, I am not talking about Governments. I am fully that there should be a secret ballot, that candidates conscious of the likely criticism that my experience has should be nominated by a minimum number of sponsors been Front-Bench experience and that I speak as a and that the names of those sponsors should be published. former Leader of the House. I am not, by the way—before One point that I wish to highlight is that we did feel that anybody alleges it—speaking on behalf of the Whips there should be no speeches or hustings on the Floor of Office. I have not consulted anybody about this. I the House from Deputy Speaker candidates. That would simply have great regard— be inappropriate, as the Deputy Speakers are there to support the Speaker in the Chair, and not to pursue Mr. Cash rose— their own agenda. Margaret Beckett: I am going to finish now. The Procedure Committee did however feel that it I have great regard for this House, and I do not wish would be helpful to Members if candidates for the it to bring itself into any kind of disrepute. If we begin position of Deputy Speaker were allowed to submit a with a Back-Bench business committee, and if it works brief statement, along with their nomination forms, as brilliantly as everybody in the Chamber tells me that which should be made available to all Members in it will, then that will be absolutely fine, and we can advance of the ballot. We concluded that the ballot proceed unhindered in the next Parliament with a House could take place away from the Chamber and be conducted committee. However, I feel that this may not be the time under the single transferable vote system, with the to move at quite the speed that so many Members here result being announced in the House by the Speaker wish us to do. and entered in the Journal. The newly elected Deputy Speakers could then take up their duties the following day. 2.52 pm It was our unanimous view that the Deputy Speakers Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Let me say, should be elected at the start of a Parliament for the I hope for the last time today, that I deplore the decision duration of that Parliament. Our report sets out a made by the Leader of the House to cherry-pick the procedure for by-elections when a vacancy occurs due Procedure Committee’s report. She has let the House to the resignation of one of the Deputy Speakers or the down by denying it the opportunity to make its own promotion of one of them to the office of Speaker. decision on some of the recommendations in that report. However, in our view, the terms of office of the Deputy I have no difficulty with the motion to make the Speakers should run independently of that of the Speaker, position that I currently hold an elected one. That is a and a change in the Speaker should not, in itself, good idea, which could lead to the office of Chairman necessitate a change in Deputy Speakers. We took the of the Procedure Committee having a greater authority, view that any imbalance in party or gender representation with the Chairman knowing that he is there at the will on the panel should be rectified at the next general of the House. Moreover, I hope that any future Leader election. of the House faced with a unanimous decision of the Procedure Committee would then ensure that there was Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): When a a debate on all its recommendations. Deputy Speaker, after serving for one Parliament, wishes The arguments on most of the motions have been to stand again, how will they be elected? well aired, so I should like to focus on motion 8—a proposal that is before us for the first time. Soon after Mr. Knight: It is our recommendation that the Deputy your election, Mr. Speaker, you announced in a statement Speakers should be elected afresh at the beginning of to the House that you were convinced that in a modern every Parliament. If the House therefore has an opportunity democracy that puts Parliament first, the choice of the to accept or reject someone who has served in a previous three Deputy Speakers should be determined not by Parliament as a Deputy Speaker, there would be no consultation but by the process of election. The Procedure need to impose term limits on the holders of that office. Committee unanimously agrees with you in that view. I hope that the House accepts what the Procedure Following the House’s approval of our interim report Committee feels are sensible recommendations, so that on the principles to be followed in electing our Deputy the Deputy Speaker elections later this year can be as Speakers, we have devised a detailed procedure for such successful as the process applied in your election, elections, which I hope finds favour in all parts of the Mr. Speaker, in 2009. House. It is based on the existing convention that the four occupants of the Chair should be drawn equally from the Government and Opposition sides of the 2.58 pm House, regardless of the exact party proportions in the Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West and Royton) House, and that there should be at least one man and at (Lab): Following the main debate on House of Commons least one woman on the team. reform 10 days ago, which was widely regarded as a very The Procedure Committee does not see a case at good debate, the main purpose of today’s debate is present for an additional Deputy Speaker, a suggestion simply to pave the way for the votes that will shortly put forward by the hon. Member for Somerton and follow. For that reason, I shall keep my remarks brief, 1075 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1076 but I do wish to emphasise strongly how critical it is so that the Back-Bench business committee can negotiate that the House, on a cross-party basis and preferably and agree with party managers on the weekly business with a substantial majority, endorses the two main motion. That would give the House a say in the business, recommendations of the Reform of the House of while ensuring that the Government had sufficient time Commons Committee, which was as everyone knows for their own business. I believe that both those aims are chaired so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for essential, and I hope that they will be passed with large Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). majorities. In politics it is almost never the case that something is Sadly, however—this is the one point of contention, “now or never”, but it is certainly true that we have at and it has already been mentioned—I think that amendment this time a unique conjunction of events in favour of (b), in which it is proposed that a Back-Bench business these reforms that is unlikely to return for a long time. committee be established now, but with only half a day No one can doubt the damage that has been done to a week for Back-Bench business, should be rejected, the House’s reputation by the expenses scandal. The because that is even less time than we have now. What opportunity that has now opened up to retrieve our we are debating and voting on today is not the end of standing, by making Parliament a more democratic, parliamentary reform. responsive and effective institution, is a priceless opportunity which we should grasp eagerly and enthusiastically. Sir George Young: If the right hon. Gentleman does Indeed, I have often thought that, terrible though the the arithmetic, he will find that it is not less than today. expenses fiasco was, it was less of an indictment of this I said that it was based on what happens at the moment. place than the insidious and systematic erosion, over recent decades, of Parliament’s fundamental rationale, Mr. Meacher: The manner in which it is drafted leads which is to hold the Executive effectively to account. one to suspect that it would result in less time. However, Especially over the past three decades, there has been a the House will shortly take a view on whether that is the steady and growing centralisation of power in the hands case. We are not prepared to accept anything less than of the Executive in general and of No. 10 in particular, the current position. and that relationship badly needs rebalancing. Today is Several other important issues will have to be pursued a historic opportunity to begin to do that. in the future, and I shall mention three briefly: the The two main proposals before us—giving the House improved scheduling of business to ensure more effective ownership of its Select Committees via the process of scrutiny of legislation on Report—the current situation election, and reclaiming for the House control of its is a scandal—and in Lords amendments debates; the own business—are certainly not revolutionary. Actually, right of the Liaison Committee to select a given quota they are quite modest. However, they are also extremely of Select Committee reports each year for debate and a important. Unquestionably, the Select Committees are vote—I stress vote—on the Floor of the House; and the most effective means by which the House holds greater access for the electorate to the proceedings of Ministers to account, and it is crucial that membership this place through the establishment of a public petitions should be determined by the House and not by those committee to ensure that petitions are sent to the who might have an interest in making that scrutiny appropriate Select Committee for consideration, or to rather more amenable to the powers that be, which the relevant Minister for action or to the proposed defeats the object of the exercise. business committee for consideration on the Floor of the House. For the House to regain control of its own business is a sine qua non of any effective, functioning Chamber. However, those issues are for the future. The two In a previous debate, hon. Members objected that the crucial proposals from the reform Committee that we Government might be prevented from having time to are debating today—on elected Select Committees and get their business through and thus their accountability on a Back-Bench and House business committee—together to the electorate would be undermined, but the reform with the two key amendments, are essential. I cannot Committee’s proposals make it clear that that is not the stress too strongly that we should all use this opportunity case, that the Government would still be guaranteed to pass them with acclamation. the time to get their own business through, and that the object of the reform is that Members of the House 3.5 pm should have the right and the opportunity to determine Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): I the agenda for the rest of the time in respect of non- shall be very brief. I gladly assented to all the resolutions Government business. that the House passed last week without Division, and I shall vote for all the substantive motions this afternoon. Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Once again, I congratulate the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) and his Committee on their hard Mr. Meacher: There are so many others wishing to work on behalf of us all. speak. I would gladly give way normally, but there The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Margaret simply is not time. Beckett) was right to issue a warning and to tell those of There are, however, two caveats reflected in two us leaving the House just to be careful. I accept that amendments before the House that I hope will be gentle stricture in the spirit in which it was given, strongly supported. One is that a Back-Bench business because I have a great regard for her. She was, in my committee dealing with non-ministerial business be secured opinion, one of the best Leaders of the House that we before the election to be ready in time for the next have had in my time here. Parliament. That must be right if the current momentum I am very concerned, however, about the need to is not to be irretrievably lost. The second caveat is that a change the name. If you look in the “Oxford English House business committee be set up in the next Parliament Dictionary”, as I am sure you regularly do, Mr. Speaker, 1077 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1078

[Sir Patrick Cormack] by my constituents urging me to support these reforms. I will do so, because I think that that they are the best you will see that one of the definitions of “chairman” is things that we can do, but we would be under an illusion a person who takes the chair at a meeting. The hon. if we thought that they offered a solution to our difficulties Member for Cannock Chase said in the report that the in engaging with the public. title “Chairman of Ways and Means”should be maintained. The first task that we must undertake—I recognise There is a degree of inconsistency in saying that we will that the Committee did not have the opportunity or the have a Chairman of Ways and Means, regardless of the brief to do this—is properly to debate with our citizens sex or gender of that person, but not a Chairman of any what the function of an MP actually is in the modern other Committee. It is a time-honoured custom to refer world. It has changed utterly since my grandfather was to “Madam Chairman”. Indeed, some of the women here—in fact, probably in the past 40 years, which is whom I have most respected, in this House and outside, rather less time than that. It has changed utterly, and have looked on such suggestions as rather silly cosmetics. without any proper engagement with the public as to The former Member, the late, lamented Gwyneth what they want from MPs, what balance they think Dunwoody would have given short shrift to the proposal, should be struck between our functions and what resources as would the former Speaker, Baroness Boothroyd, who should be allocated to those tasks. has strong views on matters of this nature, and has The proposals before us today do not attempt to voiced them on an number of occasions—not in the address that issue. They will alter, in a beneficial way, context of the Wright report, but elsewhere. the way in which we make decisions about the processes There really is no need to make the proposed change. of the House and about how we allocate its time, but I submit to the House that it is rather silly and demeaning they do not address the issue of resources. They do not to bother with it when we are moving on other matters deal with the time resources of MPs, or with the resources that are so grave and important. After all, the Leader of that MPs need to conduct high-quality work in their the House, the right hon. and learned Member for Select Committees. There was an oblique reference earlier Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), has never to the attendance problem in relation to MPs serving on thought to change her name, even though she has had Select Committees and other Committees of the House. every opportunity to do so. She could call herself “Har” I have to say that that observation was profoundly or “Harperson”, or even think up a name, such accurate. As a pretty assiduous attender myself, I have as—[Interruption]—absolutely, such as “Dromey”. sat on Committees that have been sparsely attended all However, she has not chosen to do that. Frankly, the too often. I am leaving the House at the next election, proposed change is not necessary. As one who both but I would ask Members of the new Parliament to passionately wants sensible reform and loves the traditions conduct a basic review of their own function. They of this place, I think that there is just no need for it. must ask what we are for, and how we resource the work I am conscious that many hon. Members wish to get thatwedo. in briefly, so all I would say to the House is this. Let us These reforms are of some value. They might alter applaud the Wright Committee and approve of the the balance between the Executive and the ordinary reforms that are substantive, voting for those amendments Member. I say “might” because patronage is an insidious that we think will best give them effect, but do not let us process, and I strongly suspect that, however one constructs depart from the nomenclature that has defined this the mechanism of choice, those with an interest in House through the years. Also, do not let us debase and producing an outcome that favours the Executive or the demean the English language by moving in the direction Front Bench will find ways of doing so. I would be of calling our Members furniture. I would urge colleagues surprised if that were not true, and I certainly recognise to vote against resolution 3, but to vote in favour of all from the operations of my own party that the networking the others. processes and regional groupings that we form have a significant influence on Members’ voting patterns for 3.9 pm posts in the party. I would be very surprised if that were not replicated in these elections, too. Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): I will be very brief. If we looked at constitutional definitions of The measures would alter the elites who make judgments, the purpose of being an MP, we would probably find but elites will remain. There will be a large number of three things: first, to hold the Government to account—that new Members of the House after the coming election, is what we are focusing on in these discussions—secondly, and they will feel lost in this space. I suspect that they to deliberate on legislation, and thirdly, to represent, in will find themselves with very little leverage to achieve the Burkean sense, a constituency. My grandfather, who the outcomes that they want in the Select Committee was a Member of this House in the 1930s, would processes. It might be the case that they would have probably have recognised that role pretty well, but I done better under the old, discredited models— would ask those Members present to say, in all honesty, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke whether that is a recognisable description of the activities Newington) (Lab): No! of most MPs now. Most MPs, particularly those occupying marginal Mr. Todd: My hon. Friend says no loudly behind me, seats, spend most of their time fulfilling the function of and I can see why she might say that. It is certainly true, a super-councillor, representing and pursuing individual however, that a new Member, feeling lost and without concerns as vigorously as possible, knowing perfectly any networks in place, could well find themselves with well the premium that is attached to that function by very little say in which Select Committee they got on to, their voters. If we are honest, however, the matters that if any, and without the votes to achieve the outcomes we are discussing now are not the matters that attract a that they wanted. So let us not over-egg what we are premium from our voters. I have not been approached doing today. I will vote for the reforms because I think 1079 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1080 that they will be beneficial, but, honestly, they are only a from a sedentary position. The Wright Committee may small part—and, in terms of our engagement with the be well placed to do that work, as I can assure the right public at large, a pretty minimal part—of what needs to hon. Gentleman it has given considerable thought to be done. the changes to the Standing Orders that will be required, so it will not be making a standing start. 3.14 pm Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): Mr. Cash: The right hon. Member for Derby, South I rise to speak to amendment (c) to the motion on the (Margaret Beckett) talked about wrangling over this Back-Bench business committee and to put some questions extremely important House business committee. Does to the shadow Leader of the House, the right hon. the hon. Gentleman agree that, just as we are having a Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), free vote on implementing the proposals before us, the about his amendment (b). The right hon. Gentleman result of any such wrangling must also be subject to a was a worthy member of the Wright Committee—initially, free vote? Otherwise, the Executive will prevail on all until he found his new home on the Conservative Front occasions when the House business committee takes its Bench. We all congratulated him on that at the time. own view in negotiations with the official Committee. Two weeks ago, I thought he played a statesmanlike role in our proceedings, but I would be grateful if he could Dr. Harris: The hon. Gentleman asks an important answer a number of questions about his amendment in question about the House business committee, which is order to keep that title untainted, if I can put it that covered by amendment (a) to motion 7 and various way. recommendations in the report. I was not dealing with There are several problems with the right hon. that, but the hon. Gentleman makes some important Gentleman’s amendment. First, this House elected the points, which the Wright Committee debated at length, Wright Committee to represent its views, consider the about how one ensures a consensual approach to agreeing relevant matters and bring recommendations. It is not the agenda; otherwise, regardless of what he says about binding; no Select Committee report is binding. It gives free votes, the Government of the day will be able to get rise to pause for thought when an elected Committee their way, which would wreck the whole process. I urge comes along with very strong recommendations, yet an him to read what the report has to say about the need to amendment is tabled in the name of one party to ride have the House business committee working consensually roughshod over those recommendations. when it is set up. As long as everyone has time to do their stuff, these should not be matters of dispute. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman must recognise Proper consideration on Report and of Lords amendments that amendment (c), with which his amendment (b) is should be agreed, and the Government can then use competing, endorses and flexibly implements the their majority to get their business through. Amendment (a) recommendations of the Wright Committee. His provides guarantees that the Government have time to amendment does not do that. Thirdly, his amendment do that. says that this can happen only “in the light of further consideration by the Procedure Committee”. I ask the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire to address what I view as the fundamental problem with As already noted—I intend no slight on the people his amendment (a) to the motion on the Back-Bench serving on that Committee who I am sure do a very business committee. Amendment (c) specifies support good job and have done so on the report about Deputy for recommendation 18 of the Wright Committee report— Speakers—the Procedure Committee is not an elected probably the most important of the subsidiary Committee; it is still appointed by the Whips. The right recommendations, as it talks about a Back-Bench business hon. Gentleman is asking for the Back-Bench business committee being elected. The right hon. Gentleman’s committee’s terms of reference and relevant Standing amendment leaves out any recognition of that Order to be determined by a Committee that is presently recommendation and makes no reference to a Back-Bench appointed by the Whips. Furthermore, how does he business committee being elected. As the shadow Leader envisage that being done in the two weeks we have of the House knows, unless we specify in the Standing before Parliament is dissolved? His amendment says Order, and unless whatever Committee is involved has that it will be established the time, the default will be that it would not be elected, “in time for the beginning of the next Parliament”— which would wreck the whole proposal. If a Back-Bench that is good— business committee is not elected by the House, I cannot “in the light of further consideration by the Procedure Committee”. see why he should accept that any other Committee I would be grateful if he would address that concern should be. about the timing. As long as the concerns about time are met, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, and the Leader of the Sir George Young: Someone will have to change House, will accept that the amendment concerned will the Standing Orders. Someone will have to draft the do the trick. His amendment refers to “15 days allotted”—I provision—I do not mind who does it, but I suggested presume he means currently allotted—to set-piece debates. that the Procedure Committee was the best body to do That is less than half a day a week. The Wright Committee, so and report back before the end of this Parliament so however, was clear that if we tot up those 15 days, and that we can get things up and running at the beginning the 12 days in the last Session—this might be a variable of the next one. feast—subsequently allotted for general debates, which he says will subsequently come our way, plus the topical Dr. Harris: I trust the right hon. Gentleman would time, which should be for the House, plus other House have no objection to an elected Committee of the business that must be moved in Government time, it House doing that. I am glad that he indicates assent amounts to a day a week. Amendment (c) refers to 1081 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1082

[Dr. Evan Harris] would be in the Lobby with me today. If I did, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret non-ministerial business. If the system is introduced, it Beckett) would tell me I was wrong. I know, however, cannot be right for crucial House business still to be that we could not reflect on Michael Foot in a better moved in Government time, because we will still have way than by showing determination to strengthen the problems when we debate setting up important Select institution that he loved. Committees and making Standing Order changes. Although Plenty of accolades have been given out during this it could be argued that the proposal is in the spirit of the debate. Let me now give my own accolade to my hon. Wright Committee, amendment (b) is flawed. The Leader Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mark of the House’s support should have given the shadow Fisher), who, incidentally, has just returned from the Leader of the House pause, since she is not supporting surgeon’s knife. Many years ago he set up an organisation other elements of the Wright Committee. called Parliament First, and he has toiled year in year The right hon. Member for Derby, South was concerned out to enable us to reach the point that we have reached that we might be moving too fast towards a House today. He has just told me that this represents the business committee. However, the terms of amendment culmination of his parliamentary life. He deserves huge (a) are clear: only after the establishment of a Back-Bench credit for what he has done. business committee, which we think will be at the beginning Our proposals are not ad hoc, isolated proposals; of the next Parliament if amendment (c) is passed, will they have a theme. The theme is that the time has come the House move towards the establishment of a House for the House to reclaim responsibility for itself and its business committee. That gives plenty of time to see own business. That is what unifies our proposals on how the Back-Bench business committee is working Select Committees. As we now say endlessly, it cannot and how Government and Opposition Whips—business be right for the Executive or the party managers to managers, we should say—should work with that Back- control the membership of Select Committees, either Bench business committee to reach agreement to solve directly or indirectly. The only way to alter that system, the serious problems of Report stage. as we discovered in our deliberations, is to move to a I did not understand how the Leader of the House system of election. could say that she opposed amendment (d) because it should be left “to the next Parliament”. Amendment (d) Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Will the hon. would add the words Gentleman give way? “and also looks forward to the following recommendations of the Committee being given further consideration in the next Parliament”. Dr. Wright: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I How can she oppose a motion in its own terms, by its will not, because I am going to end my speech very own terms? It does not make sense. I hope that she will soon. reconsider that, as she has reconsidered her position on We have reached a point at which it can no longer be a number of such matters, which we have welcomed. acceptable for the Executive to control business that By supporting amendment (c) to motion 7, and should properly belong to the House. That is the unifying amendment (a), we have an opportunity to show the theme of our proposals. However, I strongly agree with electorate that we recognise that now is the time to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South that make such decisions. We will never again have the with control comes responsibility. It is easy to set up coincidence of all the forces that have led us to recognise new structures, which I hope is what we will do today, that reform is necessary. If we are ever to crack the but someone must make them work, and that means problem of the House having control of its agenda, and making them work in a responsible fashion. In a way it of making sure that it can debate and vote on all the is easy when we can blame the Government for everything, legislation that the Government put before it, we must but from now on we shall have to attend to ourselves support amendments (c) and (a) to motion 7. and take responsibility for ourselves. If we do not do that, this is not going to work; it will be sunk. We should not imagine that this is the moment at which we 3.23 pm have done it, because we have not. We are at the Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): I will be beginning of a process which I hope will change the extremely brief, as I spoke at some length last Monday. nature of this institution, but it will do that only if Let me say to my friend—he is my friend—and the people who come after us make sure that it does. parliamentary neighbour the hon. Member for South Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) (Lab): I Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) that I have enjoyed approve of the idea of electing the Chairs of Select over the years hearing him denounce furniturism. But I Committees, but how can we assert responsibility, also have to tell him that if we can safely and sensibly representative government and accountability if we are move from a term that is intrinsically gender-laden to so craven that we need a secret ballot to do so? That is one that is gender-neutral, we should do it. We should no reflection on the product of the only secret ballot do it not because of political correctness but as a matter that we have had—Mr. Speaker, who is doing an excellent of common sense and common courtesy. In 2010, I job—but surely we ought to be able to display honestly think we can take that step in some kind of safety. to our constituents which Members we wanted to chair Everyone, from the Prime Minister downwards and these important Committees, rather than being too sideways, has said that strengthening Parliament is the craven to put it on the record. mission before us. We all make the speeches, but this is the moment we get a chance to do it. It is appropriate Dr. Wright: I have never considered the argument for that most of us are reflecting today on the life of a secret ballot to be a craven argument; I have always Michael Foot. I do not claim for a second that Michael considered it a rather traditional democratic argument. 1083 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1084

The real contention now surrounds the amendments process, it would be open to any Member of the House on the Back-Bench business committee. The one thing to move a motion to decide the issue. It would be the that has been agreed by everyone during this process—even duty of the Speaker to accept the motion and to put it those who were not persuaded by what we said about down for debate on the following day. That would the House business committee—is that non-ministerial ensure that we got the Select Committees set up early in business should be controlled by a Back-Bench business a new Parliament, and we would not find ourselves committee. Given the universal agreement on that, why being frustrated Back Benchers, wondering when the do we not nail it down in the most decisive form Executive would be kind and generous enough to give possible by saying that we want to do now what needs to us the chance to set up these important Select Committees. be done to ensure that the Committee is in place at the The amendment fills an important lacuna and I am beginning of the next Parliament? grateful to those Members who have already indicated I have great regard for the shadow Leader of the that they will support it if there is a Division. House, as he knows, but the problem with his amendment is that it looks like crumbs from the Executive table. All Several hon. Members rose— that our amendment is proposing is that we do what is recommended in our report, which is to take, for example, Mr. Speaker: There are fewer than seven minutes all that crucial, procedural stuff not covered by the remaining, so if more than one Member is to contribute, right hon. Gentleman’s amendment but which enables we shall need contributions to be very brief. us to get to the House issues that affect how it is run, and put it into a category of non-ministerial business. We want to give that to a Back-Bench business committee. 3.34 pm We want a standing order to nail that down and we Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): I made my want to do it in this Parliament. That is the difference maiden speech in this House on the subject of parliamentary between the two amendments. reform and the overbearing power of the Whips. I was We have taken some steps in this Parliament that told by my Whip a day later that my career was over, unfortunately have had the effect of weakening the and he was, of course, entirely right. institution. We all now know that the task is to strengthen it. These measures by themselves will not do that; all I want to touch briefly upon stuff from the Procedure they do is provide a set of tools that people in the next Committee. Let us be honest, Mr. Speaker: you are the Parliament, our successors, can use, if they want to, to only holder of the speakership who has been elected by make this place a more vital institution. That is our job secret ballot, so it is not true to suggest that the Speaker today; it is their job tomorrow. of this House is not elected by secret ballot. What there is an open ballot on, however, is the mechanism to 3.31 pm deselect the Speaker. That can be done by a single Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I shall Member calling, “Object”, as one of the first items of speak briefly in support of the two amendments tabled business when the new Parliament reassembles. If Members in my name and that of many other right hon. and hon. wish to deselect the Speaker, they should have the Members. I am grateful for the support indicated by the courage to go through that Division Lobby and put Wright Committee in its guide to amendments and their name on the record. That is the kernel of that votes. I am also grateful to my right hon. Friend the debate, and I am glad we will not be wasting any more Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), the Chairman time on it. of the Procedure Committee, for agreeing that it is Members who support parliamentary reform should logical that the Committee should be included within be deeply suspicious of any collusion, even in a free the chairmanships that will be subject to a ballot and vote, between the two Front Benches, and we have such proper election. The argument against has been based collusion today in that the Leader of the House, for on the fact that the Committee is sui generis and in whom I have great respect, will be supporting amendment that respect different from other departmental Select (b) to motion 7, which was tabled by the shadow Leader Committees. So it is, but what about the Public Accounts of the House, for whom I also have great respect. Committee? If we are to elect the chairman of the PAC, Therefore, the Leader of the House will be supporting why not the Chairman of the Procedure Committee? an Opposition amendment to her own motion, which I hope people will support the amendment. will ensure that the amendment tabled by my hon. Amendment (o) is born out of my experience when I Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), was first elected to the House in 1983, when we waited who is Chair of the Reform of the House of Commons about six months to set up the Select Committees and it Committee, will fall. As has been amply explained by was extremely frustrating for all. I looked with care at the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon the Leader of the House’s wording for the proposed (Dr. Harris) and my hon. Friend who chairs the change to Standing Orders and it seemed to me that Committee—of which I am proud to be a member—we there was a lacuna. She has said that if within one week will have a flimsier Back-Bench committee as a result. of the Queen’s Speech the Committee is set up as a I do not believe that my constituents, or those of any result of an agreement between the leaders of the other Member, are focused on the fine detail of this parties to nominate the Chairs, such and such will debate, but I think they know that this of all Parliaments happen. But what if it is not done within one week? We has to demonstrate a capacity to reform. It has to will then be wholly beholden to the Executive to decide demonstrate a capacity to get the reform agenda back when they will bring forward proposals. on track—an agenda that, to be frank, stalled when this The amendment would give one more week’s grace—until House tragically lost the services of Robin Cook. That two weeks after the Queen’s Speech. If by that time the is important not just for the reputation of this House usual channels have not come forward with an agreed and our politics, but for our ability to legislate effectively, 1085 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1086

[Martin Salter] Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry that the hon. Lady did not get so much as a minute in which to speak, but because we all know that good laws require good scrutiny, we have reached the deadline. and good scrutiny needs a House of Commons that is amply able to hold the Executive to account and to pass 3.41 pm legislation of which we can be proud, rather than, as at Two hours having elapsed since the commencement of the moment, legislation we have to revisit, sometimes proceedings on the Business of the House motion, the annually. Speaker put the Question (Order, this day). The House divided: Ayes 206, Noes 90. 3.37 pm Division No. 97] [3.41 pm Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): First, may I express regret that we have not been given an opportunity AYES to vote on all the recommendations of the Wright Abbott, Ms Diane Eagle, Angela Committee today? May I highlight an amendment that Alexander, Danny Eagle, Maria is in my name and that of a number of other Members, Allen, Mr. Graham Efford, Clive which would enable the chairmanship of the Intelligence Anderson, Mr. David Ellman, Mrs. Louise and Security Committee to be voted on by secret ballot Atkins, Charlotte Engel, Natascha while giving the Prime Minister a veto at the nomination Bailey, Mr. Adrian Etherington, Bill stage? That modest reform would have improved the Bain, Mr. William Farrelly, Paul credibility of the ISC’s scrutiny and work, and public Baird, Vera Featherstone, Lynne confidence in it. That is particularly apposite in view of Baker, Norman Fisher, Mark the Committee’s apparent failure to be able to scrutinise Banks, Gordon Fitzpatrick, Jim adequately the Binyam Mohamed case. Barlow, Ms Celia Flint, rh Caroline Barrett, John Foster, Mr. Don I wish to make two other extremely brief points. Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Foster, Michael Jabez After some considerable thought I am going to support Battle, rh John (Hastings and Rye) amendment (b) to motion 7. I realise that that will Bayley, Hugh Francis, Dr. Hywel disappoint some in the House—[Interruption.] I can Beckett, rh Margaret Gapes, Mike tell that this is so from a few nodding heads. I still feel Begg, Miss Anne Gardiner, Barry that we should proceed cautiously on the creation of Benton, Mr. Joe Gerrard, Mr. Neil the business committee. I am a supporter of it—I have Berry, Roger Gidley, Sandra supported it for a long time and have said so—but I Betts, Mr. Clive Gilroy, Linda take the view that, as a number of others have said this Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Goodman, Helen afternoon, it is an experiment. I do not think it an Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Grogan, Mr. John experiment that we should not even try—that appeared Brake, Tom Hall, Patrick Breed, Mr. Colin Hamilton, Mr. David to be the view of the former Leader of the House, the Brennan, Kevin Hancock, Mr. Mike right hon. Member for Derby, South (Margaret Beckett). Brokenshire, James Hanson, rh Mr. David If the experiment works, as I suspect it will, we will then Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet be able to take the reform further. Burden, Richard Harris, Dr. Evan I shall end my contribution by saying that by far the Burstow, Mr. Paul Heath, Mr. David most important reform looks as if it will go through, Burt, Lorely Hemming, John and I very much hope it will. I am talking about the Butler, Ms Dawn Hendrick, Mr. Mark proposal for the election of Chairmen of Select Committees Cable, Dr. Vincent Hillier, Meg by secret ballot. That will be by far the most important Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Holmes, Paul Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hopkins, Kelvin single change to the scrutiny of the Executive by this Caton, Mr. Martin Horwood, Martin place to have occurred since the St. John-Stevas reforms Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hosie, Stewart in 1979. Over time, the proposal has the capacity to Clark, Ms Katy Howarth, David transform the effectiveness of this place. I have supported Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Howarth, rh Mr. George and campaigned for this measure for more than a Clelland, Mr. David Hughes, Simon decade, so I am so pleased that the Wright Committee Clwyd, rh Ann Hunter, Mark has proposed it. The proposal will enable us, finally, to Coaker, Mr. Vernon Iddon, Dr. Brian scrutinise the Executive, with spokesmen for this place Coffey, Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric able to take on the Executive in the media outside and Cohen, Harry Irranca-Davies, Huw to act as spokesmen for us here in Parliament. Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Cook, Frank Jenkins, Mr. Brian Cooper, Rosie Jones, Lynne 3.40 pm Corbyn, Jeremy Keeley, Barbara Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): Do Cousins, Jim Keen, Alan Cruddas, Jon Keetch, Mr. Paul I have one minute left in which to speak, Mr. Speaker? I Cryer, Mrs. Ann Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles shall try to squeeze into it the many things I want to say Cunningham, Mr. Jim Kidney, Mr. David about these so-called “reforms”. I spoke in last week’s Davey, Mr. Edward Kramer, Susan debate in order to say that I do not think they are Davies, Mr. Dai Ladyman, Dr. Stephen reforms, and that we are missing a massive opportunity Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Lamb, Norman to make some serious reforms in this House. The consensus Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark that has emerged, that the proposals before the House Dobson, rh Frank Leech, Mr. John are reforms, is a dangerous one. The Front-Bench teams Doran, Mr. Frank Lepper, David of both sides and the minority parties— Drew, Mr. David Levitt, Tom 1087 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1088

Linton, Martin Sharma, Mr. Virendra Heathcoat-Amory, rh Randall, Mr. John Lloyd, Tony Shaw, Jonathan Mr. David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Sheerman, Mr. Barry Herbert, Nick Robathan, Mr. Andrew Love, Mr. Andrew Short, rh Clare Hoey, Kate Rosindell, Andrew Mackinlay, Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Russell, Bob MacNeil, Mr. Angus Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Hollobone, Mr. Philip Scott, Mr. Lee Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Sir Robert Horam, Mr. John Soames, Mr. Nicholas Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Snelgrove, Anne Howarth, Mr. Gerald Steen, Mr. Anthony Mason, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Howell, John Swayne, Mr. Desmond McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Jack, rh Mr. Michael Swire, Mr. Hugo McCarthy, Kerry Stoate, Dr. Howard Key, Robert Taylor, Matthew McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Kirkbride, Miss Julie Tredinnick, David McDonnell, John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Turner, Mr. Andrew McFall, rh John Stuart, Ms Gisela Leigh, Mr. Edward Vaizey, Mr. Edward McIsaac, Shona Stunell, Andrew Lewis, Dr. Julian Villiers, Mrs. Theresa McKechin, Ann Swinson, Jo Lidington, Mr. David Walker, Mr. Charles Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Taylor, Ms Dari Loughton, Tim Walter, Mr. Robert Michael, rh Alun Taylor, Dr. Richard Luff, Peter Watkinson, Angela Miller, Mrs. Maria Teather, Sarah May, rh Mrs. Theresa Whittingdale, Mr. John Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thurso, John McIntosh, Miss Anne Wiggin, Bill Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Moffatt, Laura Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wilson, Mr. Rob Moore, Mr. Michael Moss, Mr. Malcolm Todd, Mr. Mark Winterton, Ann Mulholland, Greg Murrison, Dr. Andrew Trickett, Jon Winterton, Sir Nicholas Mullin, Mr. Chris Newmark, Mr. Brooks Truswell, Mr. Paul Munn, Meg O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Tellers for the Noes: Turner, Dr. Desmond Naysmith, Dr. Doug Ottaway, Richard Mr. Brian Binley and Oaten, Mr. Mark Twigg, Derek Pritchard, Mark Mr. Peter Bone Öpik, Lembit Walley, Joan Webb, Steve Owen, Albert Question accordingly agreed to. Palmer, Dr. Nick Weir, Mr. Mike Pearson, Ian Whitehead, Dr. Alan Resolved, Pelling, Mr. Andrew Wicks, rh Malcolm (1) That this House approves recommendation 3 of the First Plaskitt, Mr. James Williams, rh Mr. Alan Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of Prentice, Mr. Gordon Williams, Hywel Commons, Session 2008-09, HC 1117; and Price, Adam Williams, Mark (2) That accordingly, in each place where they occur in any Primarolo, rh Dawn Willott, Jenny Standing Order related to Public Business, Order or Resolution of Pugh, Dr. John Wills, rh Mr. Michael the House, except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4) below: Purnell, rh James Wilson, Phil (a) for “chairman” there shall be substituted “chair”; Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Winnick, Mr. David (b) for “chairmen” there shall be substituted “chairs”; and Reed, Mr. Andy Wishart, Pete Reed, Mr. Jamie (c) for “Chairmen’s Panel” there shall be substituted “Panel of Woolas, Mr. Phil Chairs”; Reid, Mr. Alan Wright, Dr. Tony Rennie, Willie (3) That the following changes to Standing Orders be made: Wyatt, Derek Robertson, Angus Younger-Ross, Richard (a) In Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House)— Rogerson, Dan (i) in line 25, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of the Rowen, Paul Tellers for the Ayes: chair”, Salter, Martin Helen Jones and (ii) in line 32, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of the Sanders, Mr. Adrian Lyn Brown chair”, and (iii) in line 37, leave out “chairman” and insert “occupant of NOES the chair”; Amess, Mr. David Duddridge, James (b) In Standing Order No. 11 (Friday sittings), in line 29, leave Bacon, Mr. Richard Duncan, Alan out “chairman” and insert Baldry, Tony Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain “occupant of the chair”; and Barker, Gregory Dunne, Mr. Philip (c) In Standing Order No. 35 (Dilatory motion in abuse of the Baron, Mr. John Evans, Mr. Nigel Beith, rh Sir Alan rules of the House), line 10, leave out “chairman” and insert Fabricant, Michael “occupant of the chair”; Bellingham, Mr. Henry Field, Mr. Mark Blunkett, rh Mr. David (4) That this order shall not apply to the titles of Chairman of Gale, Mr. Roger Blunt, Mr. Crispin Ways and Means, Deputy Chairman Garnier, Mr. Edward Brooke, Annette or Chairmen or the Lord Chairman of Committees where they Gauke, Mr. David Browne, Mr. Jeremy occur in any Standing Order, Order or Resolution of the House. Goodman, Mr. Paul Browning, Angela The Speaker then put the Questions necessary for the Goodwill, Mr. Robert Burns, Mr. Simon disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Burrowes, Mr. David Gove, Michael (Order, this day). Burt, Alistair Greening, Justine Cash, Mr. William Grieve, Mr. Dominic Gummer, rh Mr. John Chope, Mr. Christopher ELECTION OF COMMITTEE CHAIRS Clappison, Mr. James Hammond, Mr. Philip Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Motion made, and Question proposed, Cormack, Sir Patrick Harper, Mr. Mark That the following Standing Order be made, with effect from Davies, Philip Harvey, Nick the beginning of the next Parliament— 1089 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1090

(1) The chairs of the following select committees shall be (c) Each Member intending to vote shall be provided with a elected by the House in accordance with paragraphs (2) to (13) ballot paper for each select committee bearing the names of the below: candidates listed in alphabetical order. (a) select committees appointed under Standing Order No. 152 (d) Members will vote by ranking as many candidates as they (select committees related to government departments); wish in order of preference, marking 1 by the name of their first preference, 2 by the name of their second preference, and so on. (b) the Environmental Audit Committee; Any candidate who receives more than half the first preferences (c) the Select Committee on Public Administration; and shall be elected. If no candidate is so elected, the candidate or candidates with the lowest number of first preferences shall be (d) the Committee of Public Accounts. eliminated and his votes distributed among the remaining candidates (2) The day following his election at the start of a new according to the preferences on them. If no candidate has more Parliament, the Speaker shall communicate to the leaders of each than half the votes, the process of elimination and distribution is party represented in the House the proportion of chairs of select repeated, until one candidate has more than half the votes. committees to be elected under this Order falling to each such (e) The ballot shall be open between 10.00 am and 5.00 pm and party which would reflect the composition of the House. counting shall take place under arrangements made by the Clerk (3) If, within a week of the Queen’s speech, a motion in the of the House. name of the leaders of all the parties entitled to one or more (11) The Speaker shall have power to give directions on any chairs of select committees subject to election under this Order matter of doubt arising from the conduct of a ballot or from an specifying to which party each such chair is allocated is moved, individual ballot paper and to vary the timings given in paragraphs 5 the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion to 10 of this order. shall be put not later than one hour after their commencement, (12) As soon as practicable after the closing of the ballot the proceedings on the motion shall be exempted business and Standing results shall be published under the direction of the Speaker. Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. (13) A chair elected under this order is a member of the (4) If a motion to which paragraph (3) above applies also committee of which he is elected chair.—(Ms Harman.) makes changes to Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to government departments) which are consequential on Amendment proposed to motion 4: (p), after paragraph changes to the machinery of government, then the questions (1)(d), insert— necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion shall be put ‘( ) the Select Committee on Procedure.’.—(Mr. Chope.) not later than one and a half hours after their commencement; proceedings on the motion shall be exempted business; and Question put, That the amendment be made. Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. A Division was called. (5) If the House has agreed a motion allocating chairs to parties the election of the chairs shall take place in accordance Mr. Speaker: Division off. with the remaining provisions of this order. Question agreed to. (6) The ballots shall take place fourteen days after the approval of the motion allocating chairs to parties. Mr. Speaker: As I have announced to the House, the (7) (a) Nominations of candidates shall be in writing and shall Division is off. I think that there was some confusion, be received by the Clerk of the House by 5.00 pm on the day although there should not really have been any. It was before the ballot. very clear in my mind, and I hope in some other (b) Each nomination shall consist of a signed statement made people’s minds, that it was the first amendment in the by the candidate declaring his willingness to stand for election, list that was being moved. Nevertheless, there was a accompanied by the signatures of fifteen Members elected to the level of confusion, but it does not matter, as it has been House as members of the same party as the candidate or ten per overcome and the Noes withdrew. cent. of the Members elected to the House as members of that party, whichever is the lower. I would like to ask the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) to move amendment (o) formally. (c) Statements may be accompanied by signatures of up to five Members elected to the House as members of any party other Amendment proposed to motion 4: (o), after paragraph (4) than that to which the candidate belongs, or members of no party. insert— (d) No Member may sign the statement of more than one ‘( ) If, on the expiry of two weeks after the Queen’s Speech, no candidate for chair of the same select committee. motion in the name of the leaders of all the parties entitled to one or more chairs of select committees subject to election under (e) No Member may be a candidate for the chair of a select this Order specifying to which party each said chair is allocated committee which has not been allocated to his party under has been tabled, on the following sitting day the Speaker shall paragraph (3) of this order or otherwise, or for which he is give precedence to a motion tabled thereafter by any hon. ineligible under Standing Order No. 122A (Term limits for chairmen Member to allocate chairs under this Order and the provisions of of select committees). paragraphs 3 and 4 shall apply to proceedings on such a (f) No Member may be a candidate for more than one chair motion.’.—(Mr. Chope.) elected under this order. Question put, That the amendment be made. (g) As soon as practicable following the close of nominations, The House divided: Ayes 279, Noes 31. lists of the candidates and their accompanying signatories shall be published. Division No. 98] [3.59 pm (8) Election of chairs of select committees under this order AYES shall be by secret ballot. Abbott, Ms Diane Baird, Vera (9) Preparatory arrangements for the ballots shall be made Alexander, Danny Baker, Norman under the supervision of the Clerk of the House. Amess, Mr. David Baldry, Tony (10) (a) If there is only one candidate for the chair of a select Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Barlow, Ms Celia committee, that candidate shall be declared elected without a Atkins, Charlotte Baron, Mr. John ballot. Bacon, Mr. Richard Barrett, John (b) The ballot shall take place in a place appointed by the Bailey, Mr. Adrian Battle, rh John Speaker. Bain, Mr. William Bayley, Hugh 1091 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1092

Begg, Miss Anne Field, rh Mr. Frank Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Field, Mr. Mark Levitt, Tom Rowen, Paul Benton, Mr. Joe Fisher, Mark Lewis, Dr. Julian Russell, Bob Benyon, Mr. Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim Lidington, Mr. David Salter, Martin Berry, Roger Flint, rh Caroline Linton, Martin Sanders, Mr. Adrian Betts, Mr. Clive Foster, Mr. Don Lloyd, Tony Scott, Mr. Lee Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Francis, Dr. Hywel Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Sharma, Mr. Virendra Blunt, Mr. Crispin Gale, Mr. Roger Loughton, Tim Sheerman, Mr. Barry Boswell, Mr. Tim Gapes, Mike Love, Mr. Andrew Short, rh Clare Bottomley, Peter Gardiner, Barry Luff, Peter Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Garnier, Mr. Edward Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Brady, Mr. Graham Gauke, Mr. David MacNeil, Mr. Angus Snelgrove, Anne Brake, Tom George, Andrew MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Soames, Mr. Nicholas Breed, Mr. Colin Gidley, Sandra Mactaggart, Fiona Soulsby, Sir Peter Brennan, Kevin Gilroy, Linda Marsden, Mr. Gordon Steen, Mr. Anthony Brokenshire, James Goodman, Mr. Paul Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Stoate, Dr. Howard Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr. Robert Mason, John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gove, Michael Maude, rh Mr. Francis Stuart, Ms Gisela Browning, Angela Green, Damian May, rh Mrs. Theresa Stunell, Andrew Bruce, rh Malcolm Greenway, Mr. John McDonnell, John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Bryant, Chris Grieve, Mr. Dominic McFall, rh John Swinson, Jo Burden, Richard Grogan, Mr. John McIsaac, Shona Taylor, Matthew Burrowes, Mr. David Gummer, rh Mr. John McKechin, Ann Taylor, Dr. Richard Burstow, Mr. Paul Hall, Patrick McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Teather, Sarah Burt, Alistair Hamilton, Mr. David Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Thurso, John Burt, Lorely Hammond, Mr. Philip Michael, rh Alun Todd, Mr. Mark Butler, Ms Dawn Hammond, Stephen Miller, Mrs. Maria Tredinnick, David Cable, Dr. Vincent Hancock, Mr. Mike Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Trickett, Jon Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Harper, Mr. Mark Mitchell, Mr. Austin Truswell, Mr. Paul Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Dr. Evan Moffatt, Laura Turner, Mr. Andrew Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Harvey, Nick Moore, Mr. Michael Turner, Dr. Desmond Carswell, Mr. Douglas Heath, Mr. David Moss, Mr. Malcolm Twigg, Derek Cash, Mr. William Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mulholland, Greg Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Caton, Mr. Martin Mr. David Mullin, Mr. Chris Vara, Mr. Shailesh Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hemming, John Munn, Meg Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Chapman, Ben Hoey, Kate Murrison, Dr. Andrew Walker, Mr. Charles Chope, Mr. Christopher Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan Clappison, Mr. James Hollobone, Mr. Philip Newmark, Mr. Brooks Walter, Mr. Robert Clark, Greg Holmes, Paul Oaten, Mr. Mark Webb, Steve Clark, Ms Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Öpik, Lembit Weir, Mr. Mike Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Horam, Mr. John Ottaway, Richard Whitehead, Dr. Alan Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Horwood, Martin Owen, Albert Whittingdale, Mr. John Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hosie, Stewart Palmer, Dr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Clelland, Mr. David Howarth, David Pearson, Ian Wiggin, Bill Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Howarth, rh Mr. George Pelling, Mr. Andrew Willetts, Mr. David Clwyd, rh Ann Howell, John Penrose, John Williams, rh Mr. Alan Coffey, Ann Hughes, Simon Plaskitt, Mr. James Williams, Hywel Cohen, Harry Hunter, Mark Prentice, Mr. Gordon Williams, Mark Connarty, Michael Iddon, Dr. Brian Price, Adam Willis, Mr. Phil Cook, Frank Illsley, Mr. Eric Primarolo, rh Dawn Willott, Jenny Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Pritchard, Mark Wills, rh Mr. Michael Corbyn, Jeremy Jack, rh Mr. Michael Pugh, Dr. John Winterton, Ann Cousins, Jim Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Purnell, rh James Winterton, Sir Nicholas Cruddas, Jon Jenkins, Mr. Brian Randall, Mr. John Wishart, Pete Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Lynne Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Wright, Dr. Tony Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Reed, Mr. Andy Wyatt, Derek Curry, rh Mr. David Keen, Alan Reed, Mr. Jamie Young, rh Sir George Davey, Mr. Edward Keetch, Mr. Paul Reid, Mr. Alan Younger-Ross, Richard Davies, Mr. Dai Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Rennie, Willie Davies, Philip Key, Robert Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tellers for the Ayes: Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Robertson, Angus Mr. Peter Bone and Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kirkbride, Miss Julie Rogerson, Dan Mr. Brian Binley Drew, Mr. David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Kramer, Susan NOES Dunne, Mr. Philip Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Atkinson, Mr. Peter Duddridge, James Efford, Clive Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Balls, rh Ed Eagle, Angela Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lamb, Norman Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Eagle, Maria Etherington, Bill Laxton, Mr. Bob Evans, Mr. Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Gerrard, Mr. Neil Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr. John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Goodman, Helen Farrelly, Paul Leigh, Mr. Edward Coaker, Mr. Vernon Greening, Justine Featherstone, Lynne Lepper, David Dobson, rh Frank Hanson, rh Mr. David 1093 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1094

Harman, rh Ms Harriet Meale, Mr. Alan (b) Each nomination shall consist of a signed statement made Hillier, Meg Shaw, Jonathan by the candidate declaring his willingness to stand for election, Howarth, Mr. Gerald Skinner, Mr. Dennis accompanied by the signatures of fifteen Members elected to the Jackson, Glenda Strang, rh Dr. Gavin House as members of the same party as the candidate or ten per Keeley, Barbara Taylor, Ms Dari cent. of the Members elected to the House as members of that Kidney, Mr. David Timms, rh Mr. Stephen party, whichever is the lower. McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Wilson, Mr. Rob (c) Statements may be accompanied by signatures of up to five McCarthy, Kerry Tellers for the Noes: Members elected to the House as members of any party other than that to which the candidate belongs, or members of no party. McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Helen Jones and McIntosh, Miss Anne Lyn Brown (d) No Member may sign the statement of more than one candidate for chair of the same select committee. (e) No Member may be a candidate for the chair of a select Question accordingly agreed to. committee which has not been allocated to his party under Amendment made to motion 4: (q), after paragraph (7)(e) paragraph (3) of this order or otherwise, or for which he is insert— ineligible under Standing Order No. 122A (Term limits for chairmen of select committees). ‘( ) No member may be a candidate for the chair of the Committee of Public Accounts unless his party is that of the ( ) No member may be a candidate for the chair of the official Opposition.’.—(Mr. Leigh.) Committee of Public Accounts unless his party is that of the official Opposition. Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. (f) No Member may be a candidate for more than one chair Resolved, elected under this order. That the following Standing Order be made, with effect from (g) As soon as practicable following the close of nominations, the beginning of the next Parliament— lists of the candidates and their accompanying signatories shall (1) The chairs of the following select committees shall be be published. elected by the House in accordance with paragraphs (2) to (13) (8) Election of chairs of select committees under this order below: shall be by secret ballot. (a) select committees appointed under Standing Order No. 152 (9) Preparatory arrangements for the ballots shall be made (select committees related to government departments); under the supervision of the Clerk of the House. (b) the Environmental Audit Committee; (10) (a) If there is only one candidate for the chair of a select (c) the Select Committee on Public Administration; and committee, that candidate shall be declared elected without a ballot. (d) the Committee of Public Accounts. (b) The ballot shall take place in a place appointed by the ( ) the Select Committee on Procedure. Speaker. (2) The day following his election at the start of a new (c) Each Member intending to vote shall be provided with a Parliament, the Speaker shall communicate ballot paper for each select committee bearing the names of the to the leaders of each party represented in the House the proportion candidates listed in alphabetical order. of chairs of select committees to be elected under this Order (d) Members will vote by ranking as many candidates as they falling to each such party which would reflect the composition of wish in order of preference, marking 1 by the name of their first the House. preference, 2 by the name of their second preference, and so on. (3) If, within a week of the Queen’s speech, a motion in the Any candidate who receives more than half the first preferences name of the leaders of all the parties entitled to one or more shall be elected. If no candidate is so elected, the candidate or chairs of select committees subject to election under this Order candidates with the lowest number of first preferences shall be specifying to which party each such chair is allocated is moved, eliminated and his votes distributed among the remaining candidates the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion according to the preferences on them. If no candidate has more shall be put not later than one hour after their commencement, than half the votes, the process of elimination and distribution is proceedings on the motion shall be exempted business and Standing repeated, until one candidate has more than half the votes. Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. (e) The ballot shall be open between 10.00 am and 5.00 pm and (4) If a motion to which paragraph (3) above applies also counting shall take place under arrangements made by the Clerk makes changes to Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees of the House. related to government departments) which are consequential on (11) The Speaker shall have power to give directions on any changes to the machinery of government, then the questions matter of doubt arising from the conduct of a ballot or from an necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion shall be put individual ballot paper and to vary the timings given in paragraphs 5 not later than one and a half hours after their commencement; to 10 of this order. proceedings on the motion shall be exempted business; and (12) As soon as practicable after the closing of the ballot the Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. results shall be published under the direction of the Speaker. ( ) If, on the expiry of two weeks after the Queen’s Speech, no (13) A chair elected under this order is a member of the motion in the name of the leaders of all the parties entitled to one committee of which he is elected chair. or more chairs of select committees subject to election under this Order specifying to which party each said chair is allocated has been tabled, on the following sitting day the Speaker shall give RESIGNATION OR REMOVAL OF CHAIRS OF precedence to a motion tabled thereafter by any hon. Member to SELECT COMMITTEES allocate chairs under this Order and the provisions of paragraphs 3 and 4 shall apply to proceedings on such a motion. Resolved, (5) If the House has agreed a motion allocating chairs to That the following Standing Order be made, with effect from parties the election of the chairs shall take place in accordance the beginning of the next Parliament— with the remaining provisions of this order. (1) In the case of a select committee to which the provisions of (6) The ballots shall take place fourteen days after the approval Standing Order No. (Election of select committee chairs) applies, of the motion allocating chairs to parties. where (7) (a) Nominations of candidates shall be in writing and shall (a) the chair has ceased to be a member of the House, or be received by the Clerk of the House by 5.00 pm on the day (b) the chair has given written notice to the Speaker of a wish before the ballot. to resign from the chair, or 1095 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1096

(c) the committee has reported a resolution that it has no backbench business committee and a new category of backbench confidence in the chair in accordance with the terms of paragraphs (3) business, in the light of further consideration by the Procedure and (4) of this order the Speaker shall declare the chair vacant Committee.—(Ms Harman.) and, as soon as practicable, announce the date of the election for Amendment proposed to motion 7: (b), leave out from the position of chair of that committee which shall be not fewer ‘opportunity’ to end and add than ten sitting days after that announcement. ‘in the light of further consideration by the Procedure Committee, (2) The election shall be held according to the provisions of to establish in time for the beginning of the next Parliament a paragraphs (2) to (13) of Standing Order No. (Election of select Backbench Business Committee and a new category of backbench committee chairs), save that nominations shall be submitted by business, comprising initially the 15 days allotted to set piece 12 noon on the day before the ballot. debates; and subsequently days allocated for general debates.— (3) No motion expressing no confidence in its chair may be (Sir George Young.) made in a committee unless notice of the motion has been Question put, That the amendment be made. circulated to the chair and all members of the committee at least ten sitting days in advance of the meeting at which the motion is The House divided: Ayes 106, Noes 221. made. Division No. 99] [4.13 pm (4) A resolution by a committee expressing no confidence in its chair shall not have effect for the purposes of paragraph (1) above AYES unless either Amess, Mr. David Jones, Helen (a) it is agreed by the committee without a division or Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Keeley, Barbara (b) the majority of the membership of the committee, including Atkinson, Mr. Peter Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq at least two members from the largest party represented on the Barker, Gregory Kidney, Mr. David committee and at least one member from another party, vote in Baron, Mr. John Kirkbride, Miss Julie favour of the resolution. Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Knight, rh Mr. Greg (5) A motion expressing no confidence in the chair may not be Beckett, rh Margaret Laing, Mrs. Eleanor made in a committee in the six months following the election of a Bellingham, Mr. Henry Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver chair by the House or in the year following a vote on such a Benyon, Mr. Richard Lewis, Dr. Julian motion on that chair.—(Ms Harman.) Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Lidington, Mr. David Blunt, Mr. Crispin Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Boswell, Mr. Tim Loughton, Tim ELECTION OF MEMBERS OF SELECT Bottomley, Peter Luff, Peter COMMITTEES Brennan, Kevin Maude, rh Mr. Francis Motion made, and Question proposed, Brokenshire, James May, rh Mrs. Theresa That this House takes note of recommendation 6 of the First Brown, Lyn McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of Browning, Angela McCarthy, Kerry Commons, Session 2008–09, HC 1117, and endorses the principle Burrowes, Mr. David McCarthy-Fry, Sarah that parties should elect members of select committees in a secret Burt, Alistair McIntosh, Miss Anne ballot by whichever transparent and democratic method they Butler, Ms Dawn McKechin, Ann choose.—(Ms Harman.) Byrne, rh Mr. Liam McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Amendment made to motion 6: (a), at end add Clappison, Mr. James Miller, Mrs. Maria ‘and further notes and endorses recommendation 8 in the First Clark, Greg Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Report from the Liaison Committee of this Session, HC 272, and Clark, Paul Mole, Chris directs that where the attendance of any member of a select Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Murrison, Dr. Andrew committee in any Session is below 60 per cent. of the Committee’s Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Neill, Robert formal meetings, at the end of that Session the Speaker may invite Cormack, Sir Patrick Newmark, Mr. Brooks the Chairman of the Committee of Selection to propose to the Curry, rh Mr. David Penrose, John House that any such Member should be discharged and that an Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Pound, Stephen election to fill that vacancy should be held within two weeks of Duddridge, James Randall, Mr. John the beginning of the next Session.’ —(Mr. Alan Williams.) Duncan, Alan Robathan, Mr. Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Rosindell, Andrew Dunne, Mr. Philip Resolved, Scott, Mr. Lee Eagle, Angela Shaw, Jonathan That this House takes note of recommendation 6 of the First Eagle, Maria Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of Engel, Natascha Commons, Session 2008–09, HC 1117, and endorses the principle Fabricant, Michael Soames, Mr. Nicholas that parties should elect members of select committees in a secret Steen, Mr. Anthony ballot by whichever transparent and democratic method they Fitzpatrick, Jim Garnier, Mr. Edward Swayne, Mr. Desmond choose and further notes and endorses recommendation 8 in the Swire, Mr. Hugo First Report from the Liaison Committee of this Session, HC 272, Goodwill, Mr. Robert Timms, rh Mr. Stephen and directs that where the attendance of any member of a select Gove, Michael committee in any Session is below 60 per cent. of the Committee’s Grayling, Chris Tyrie, Mr. Andrew formal meetings, at the end of that Session the Speaker may invite Green, Damian Vaizey, Mr. Edward the Chairman of the Committee of Selection to propose to the Greening, Justine Vara, Mr. Shailesh House that any such Member should be discharged and that an Greenway, Mr. John Villiers, Mrs. Theresa election to fill that vacancy should be held within two weeks of Grieve, Mr. Dominic Watkinson, Angela the beginning of the next Session. Gummer, rh Mr. John Wiggin, Bill Hammond, Stephen Wills, rh Mr. Michael BACKBENCH BUSINESS COMMITTEE Harman, rh Ms Harriet Wilson, Phil Woolas, Mr. Phil Motion made, and Question proposed, Harper, Mr. Mark Hillier, Meg Wright, Jeremy That this House approves recommendation 17 of the First Young, rh Sir George Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Commons, Session 2008–09, HC 1117, and looks forward to the Horam, Mr. John Tellers for the Ayes: House being offered the opportunity within 10 sitting weeks of Howarth, Mr. Gerald Mr. Simon Burns and the beginning of the next session of Parliament to establish a Howell, John Mr. Rob Wilson 1097 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1098

NOES McIsaac, Shona Snelgrove, Anne Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Abbott, Ms Diane Field, Mr. Mark Meale, Mr. Alan Stoate, Dr. Howard Alexander, Danny Fisher, Mark Michael, rh Alun Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Atkins, Charlotte Flint, rh Caroline Mitchell, Mr. Austin Straw, rh Mr. Jack Bacon, Mr. Richard Foster, Mr. Don Moffatt, Laura Stuart, Ms Gisela Bailey, Mr. Adrian Francis, Dr. Hywel Moore, Mr. Michael Stunell, Andrew Bain, Mr. William Gale, Mr. Roger Moss, Mr. Malcolm Swinson, Jo Baker, Norman Gapes, Mike Mulholland, Greg Baldry, Tony Gardiner, Barry Taylor, Matthew Mullin, Mr. Chris Balls, rh Ed George, Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard Munn, Meg Barlow, Ms Celia Gerrard, Mr. Neil Teather, Sarah Naysmith, Dr. Doug Barrett, John Gidley, Sandra Thurso, John Oaten, Mr. Mark Battle, rh John Gilroy, Linda Todd, Mr. Mark Öpik, Lembit Bayley, Hugh Goodman, Helen Trickett, Jon Ottaway, Richard Begg, Miss Anne Grogan, Mr. John Truswell, Mr. Paul Owen, Albert Beith, rh Sir Alan Hall, Patrick Turner, Mr. Andrew Palmer, Dr. Nick Bell, Sir Stuart Hamilton, Mr. David Turner, Dr. Desmond Pearson, Ian Berry, Roger Hancock, Mr. Mike Twigg, Derek Pelling, Mr. Andrew Betts, Mr. Clive Hanson, rh Mr. David Walker, Mr. Charles Plaskitt, Mr. James Binley, Mr. Brian Harris, Dr. Evan Walley, Joan Prentice, Mr. Gordon Blunkett, rh Mr. David Harvey, Nick Price, Adam Walter, Mr. Robert Bone, Mr. Peter Heath, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Webb, Steve Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pritchard, Mark Weir, Mr. Mike Brady, Mr. Graham Mr. David Pugh, Dr. John Whitehead, Dr. Alan Brake, Tom Hemming, John Purnell, rh James Whittingdale, Mr. John Breed, Mr. Colin Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Brennan, Kevin Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr. Jamie Williams, rh Mr. Alan Brooke, Annette Hollobone, Mr. Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Williams, Hywel Browne, Mr. Jeremy Holmes, Paul Rennie, Willie Bruce, rh Malcolm Hopkins, Kelvin Williams, Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bryant, Chris Horwood, Martin Willis, Mr. Phil Robertson, Angus Burden, Richard Hosie, Stewart Willott, Jenny Rogerson, Dan Burstow, Mr. Paul Howarth, David Winnick, Mr. David Rowen, Paul Burt, Lorely Howarth, rh Mr. George Winterton, Ann Russell, Bob Cable, Dr. Vincent Hughes, Simon Winterton, Sir Nicholas Salter, Martin Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hunter, Mark Wishart, Pete Sanders, Mr. Adrian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Iddon, Dr. Brian Wright, Dr. Tony Sharma, Mr. Virendra Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Illsley, Mr. Eric Wyatt, Derek Sheerman, Mr. Barry Carswell, Mr. Douglas Irranca-Davies, Huw Younger-Ross, Richard Short, rh Clare Cash, Mr. William Jack, rh Mr. Michael Skinner, Mr. Dennis Caton, Mr. Martin Jackson, Glenda Tellers for the Noes: Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Cawsey, Mr. Ian Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Mr. Graham Allen and Smith, Sir Robert Chapman, Ben Jenkins, Mr. Brian Sir Peter Soulsby Chope, Mr. Christopher Jones, Lynne Clark, Ms Katy Jones, Mr. Martyn Question accordingly negatived. Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Keen, Alan Amendments made to motion 7: (c), leave out from Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Keetch, Mr. Paul ‘opportunity’ to end and add Clelland, Mr. David Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Clwyd, rh Ann Key, Robert ‘to establish, in time for the start of the next Parliament, a Coaker, Mr. Vernon Knight, rh Jim backbench business committee, constituted in accordance with Coffey, Ann Kramer, Susan the principles set out in recommendation 18 of the Committee’s Cohen, Harry Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Report, to schedule non-ministerial business as described in recommendations 22 (select committees), 23 and 28 (backbench Connarty, Michael Lamb, Norman substantive motions), 30 (protected time for backbench business) Cook, Frank Laxton, Mr. Bob and 39 (Estimates days) of the Committee’s Report.’. Cooper, Rosie Lazarowicz, Mark Corbyn, Jeremy Leech, Mr. John Amendment (a), at end add Cousins, Jim Leigh, Mr. Edward ‘and approves the establishment during the course of the next Cruddas, Jon Lepper, David Parliament of a House Business Committee comprising the backbench Cryer, Mrs. Ann Levitt, Tom business committee and representatives of Government and Cunningham, Mr. Jim Linton, Martin Opposition which, while guaranteeing that the Government has Davey, Mr. Edward Lloyd, Tony the time and first choice of dates to get its legislative programme Davies, Mr. Dai Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn through, and to make whatever statements it wishes, would Davies, Philip Love, Mr. Andrew improve scheduling of business to ensure more effective scrutiny Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Mackinlay, Andrew of legislation at Report Stage and consideration of Lords Dismore, Mr. Andrew MacNeil, Mr. Angus Amendments.’. Drew, Mr. David MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Amendment (d), at end add Efford, Clive Mactaggart, Fiona ‘and also looks forward to the following recommendations of the Ellman, Mrs. Louise Marsden, Mr. Gordon Committee being given further consideration in the next Parliament: Evans, Mr. Nigel Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert (a) 19 and 20 (Ministerial business); Farrelly, Paul Mason, John Featherstone, Lynne McDonnell, John (b) 21 (Opposition business); Field, rh Mr. Frank McFall, rh John (c) 26 (notice and flexibility); 1099 Chair (Terminology)4 MARCH 2010 Chair (Terminology) 1100

(d) 27 (timetabling); (2) The election shall be by secret ballot. (e) 32 (sessions and carry-over); (3) Preparatory arrangements for a ballot shall be made under (f) 35 (Ministerial statements); the supervision of the Clerk of the House. (g) 36 (general committees); (4)(a) Nominations of candidates shall be in writing and shall be received by the Clerk of the House between 10.00 am and 5.00 (h) 37 (public bill committees); and pm on the day before the House is to elect the Deputy Speakers. (i) 40 (Private Members’ bills).’.—(Dr. Tony Wright.) (b) Each nomination shall consist of a brief signed statement Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. made by the candidate declaring his willingness to stand for Resolved, election accompanied by the signatures of not fewer than six nor more than 10 Members. No Member shall sign more than three That this House approves recommendation 17 of the First such statements and if any Member does so, his signature shall no Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the House of longer be valid. Commons, Session 2008–09, HC 1117, and looks forward to the House being offered the opportunity to establish, in time for the (c) As soon as practicable following the close of nominations, start of the next Parliament, a backbench business committee, lists of the candidates and their sponsors and the statements shall constituted in accordance with the principles set out in be placed in the Members’ lobby and published. recommendation 18 of the Committee’s Report, to schedule (5)(a) A ballot shall take place between eleven o’clock and non-ministerial business as described in recommendations 22 twelve o’clock in a place appointed by the Speaker. (select committees), 23 and 28 (backbench substantive motions), (b) Each Member intending to vote shall be provided with a 30 (protected time for backbench business) and 39 (Estimates ballot paper bearing the names of the candidates listed in alphabetical days) of the Committee’s Report, and approves the establishment order. during the course of the next Parliament of a House Business (c) Each such Member may vote for as many or as few Committee comprising the backbench business committee and candidates on the ballot paper as he wishes, marking them in representatives of Government and Opposition which, while order of preference. guaranteeing that the Government has the time and first choice of dates to get its legislative programme through, and to make (d) Counting shall take place under arrangements made by the whatever statements it wishes, would improve scheduling of business Clerk of the House. to ensure more effective scrutiny of legislation at Report Stage (e) The ballot shall be counted under the Single Transferable and consideration of Lords Amendments, and also looks forward Vote System with constraints that of those elected: to the following recommendations of the Committee being given (i) two candidates shall come from the opposite side of the further consideration in the next Parliament: House to that from which the Speaker was drawn, the first of (a) 19 and 20 (Ministerial business); which candidates will be Chairman of Ways and Means and the (b) 21 (Opposition business); second, Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means, (c) 26 (notice and flexibility); (ii) one candidate shall come from the same side of the House as that from which the Speaker was drawn and shall be First (d) 27 (timetabling); Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means, and (e) 32 (sessions and carry-over); (iii) at least one man and at least one woman shall be elected (f) 35 (Ministerial statements); across the four posts of Speaker and Deputy Speakers. (g) 36 (general committees); (f) The Speaker shall have discretion to vary the timings given (h) 37 (public bill committees); and in this order and power to give final directions on any matter of doubt arising from the conduct of a ballot or from an individual (i) 40 (Private Members’ bills). ballot paper. (6) As soon as practicable after the votes have been counted the Speaker shall announce to the House the results of the ballot and ELECTION OF THE DEPUTY SPEAKERS direct the Clerk to enter the names of the elected Members in the Resolved, Journal. That the following Standing Order be made, with effect from (7) Where a ballot is needed to elect to a single post of Deputy the beginning of the next Parliament:— Speaker as a result of a change in the Speaker, the election shall be held with candidates from only the relevant side of the House. (1) At the commencement of every Parliament, or from time to time, as necessity may arise, the Speaker shall notify the House of (8) Each Deputy Speaker elected under this order is so elected the arrangements to be made to elect a Chairman of Ways and to serve until the end of the Parliament. Means and two Deputy Chairmen of Ways and Means, who shall (9) The Deputy Chairmen shall be entitled to exercise all the be known respectively as the First and the Second Deputy Chairman powers vested in the Chairman of Ways and Means, including his of Ways and Means. powers as Deputy Speaker.—(Ms Harman.) 1101 4 MARCH 2010 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 1102 Homes) Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of Homes) two-month consultation period with the tenants was satisfactory, but it was never told that the Government’s Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House recommended minimum for such a consultation was —(Lyn Brown.) do now adjourn. three months. In addition, the documents did not refer to the future Mr. Speaker: Just before I ask the right hon. Member of the current arrangement whereby key workers are for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) to make nominated to fill flats that become vacant. Nor was the his speech, may I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members board advised of the impact of ending the arrangement leaving the Chamber please to do so quickly and quietly, on the key workers themselves or on the recruitment without conducting animated or noisy conversations in and retention prospects for the bodies that nominate the interim? That would be helpful—[Laughter.]—although their key workers for such lettings. Nor did the documents there is no prohibition on laughing. explain to the board that the nominating bodies included eight hospitals—Bart’s, the Chelsea and Westminster, 4.27 pm Homerton, King’s College, the Royal Free, St. Mary’s, Great Ormond Street, and University College hospital. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) (Lab): Among They did not mention that the nominating bodies also the people I represent are residents of 539 flats on the included the London Ambulance Service, 10 NHS primary, Cumberland Market estate that are owned by the Crown community and mental health trusts, the London fire Estate. Like their fellow Crown Estate residents in Victoria brigade, London Underground, Transport for London, Park in Hackney and Tower Hamlets, Millbank in the Metropolitan police and the education departments Westminster, and Lee Green in Lewisham, they were in Camden, Westminster, Hackney and Tower Hamlets, told, out of the blue, that their homes were to be sold. as well as the House of Commons. That has caused consternation among the residents, who range from elderly people such as Bill and Mary The documents did not make it clear to the board Greenleaf, who have lived all their lives at Cumberland that, when the tenants were to be consulted about their Market, to young key workers who have recently got homes being sold to the new landlord, they were not a flat. going to be told who the new landlord would be. If I were a member of the Crown Estate commission’s board, All four estates are settled communities. Some people I would be most unhappy that all these aspects had not live in blocks of flats, others in street properties. Their been drawn to my attention before I was asked to arrive homes are well managed, giving rise to far fewer complaints at the decision to sell off the affordable housing. to local councillors and MPs than council or registered Yesterday, the chief executive of the Crown Estate social landlord properties. The form of tenure ranges gave evidence to the Sub-Committee of the Treasury from leaseholders through regulated and assured tenancies Select Committee. When asked about the tenants’ response, to assured shorthold tenancies. All are let at affordable he conceded that there had been rents. “a good deal of concern” Documents were released under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, but they contained massive about the proposed sell-off. He is clearly a master of redactions, and when I say massive, I really mean massive. understatement. On behalf of myself and my party They nevertheless revealed that the Crown Estate had colleagues, my hon. Friends the Members for Hackney, been considering the proposal to sell off its affordable South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) and for Lewisham, housing for well over a year. They also showed that the East (Bridget Prentice), my parliamentary colleague, Crown Estate board might have been misled into adopting the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow that policy. The minutes show that the board was given (Mr. Galloway), and the hon. Member for Cities of to understand that a mixture of flats and street properties London and Westminster (Mr. Field), who is in the was Chamber, I can confirm that the overwhelming majority of the tenants wish to remain with the Crown Estate. “not typical of affordable housing stock in the capital”. That is the heart of the matter. Those residents do not In fact, the reverse is true. Such a mixture is entirely want to be sold off like chattels, or treated like the typical of the affordable housing stock in London. contents of the place where they live, and no foreshortened, The board was also told that the Crown Estate’s inadequate process of so-called consultation is likely to affordable housing portfolio was short of a critical mass change their minds. compared with registered social landlords, who might For a start, the consultation period is too short, but it have 50,000 flats. In fact, with 1,500 units, the Crown is much worse than that. The Court of Appeal has laid Estate is bigger than the vast majority of registered down that when public bodies are consulting, they must social landlords. It was told that the stock was not ensure that purpose built, but I am entirely at a loss to understand “those consulted must be provided with information which is what the purpose of a flat or house is, other than to accurate and sufficient to enable them to make a meaningful house someone. The board was told that managing response”. affordable housing was not one of the Crown Estate’s The Crown Estate will not or cannot disclose who the core skills, even though it has been doing it rather well new landlord will be, so I submit that the information is for 80 years, and is branching out into novel, non-residential very clearly “not sufficient”. The Crown Estate asserts investments that have got into trouble. that the tenants will be protected if they are transferred, In relation to consultation, the board was told that but provides no information whatever to back up that the tenants were being treated like other public sector assertion. stock transfers, but such stock transfers require a ballot Let me give the Minister some examples of the problems of those affected, and the existing landlord needs to that have not been cleared up through the consultation accept the outcome of the ballot. It was told that a process. Some rights of leaseholders and tenants are 1103 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 4 MARCH 2010 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 1104 Homes) Homes) statutory and should carry over, but in my experience, Those former tenants of the Church Commissioners there is a world of difference between a landlord such as say that similar promises to those being made by the the Crown Estate, which is happy to comply with the Crown Estate were made to them before their homes law, and a landlord who is reluctant to comply with were sold off, but after the sale their rents rose and it—and the tenants certainly know the difference. empty properties were disposed of. They note that that In any case, some of the terms and conditions currently transaction on behalf of the Church Commissioners employed by tenants of the Crown Estate are the product was managed by a Mr. Paul Clark, who is now pushing of clear improvements on the statutory minimum. For the Crown Estate’s sell-off proposal as the Crown Estate’s instance, assured tenants under the Crown Estate are director of investment and asset management. protected by a ceiling on rents of between 40 and 60 per In the face of that threat to their homes, the residents cent. of the market rent. No explanation has been associations from the four estates have got together. forthcoming from the Crown Estate as to how this Though with minimal resources at their disposal, they concession would be legally enforceable against a new have mounted a very effective campaign to draw attention landlord. It could not be left to their good will. Under to the threat to their quiet enjoyment of their homes. the Crown Estate, assured shorthold tenants are told They have organised meetings and rallies, briefed the that their short tenancy will always be renewed, provided news media, and submitted evidence to the Treasury they are not in breach of their other tenancy conditions. Sub-Committee. They have involved local councillors By what mechanism could this become a legally enforceable and Members of Parliament—my hon. Friends the right against a new landlord? Answer comes there none— Members for Hackney, South and Shoreditch and for no answer to these questions and no assurance about Lewisham, East and I have also submitted evidence on other guarantees sought by tenants on such matters as their behalf to the Sub-Committee. internal transfers and joint tenancies. We now call for the Crown Estate to conduct a ballot When talking about future landlords, the Crown of the residents of its affordable housing, and to abide Estate says it wants to involve a private landlord in by the result of that ballot. We also call for it to provide collaboration with a registered social landlord. It talks free, independent legal advice to the four residents of wanting to continue the same “tone of management” associations and individual tenants. The Crown Estate with “focused housing providers”, but neither tone nor still refuses to disclose the identity of the landlords to focused housing providers are matters enforceable in whom it proposes to sell. It is also withholding other law. If all the terms and conditions that the tenants information that tenants require to make a “meaningful currently enjoy were to be carried on by the new landlord, response”, as the Court of Appeal put it. what would be in it for a private, profit-seeking landlord? At yesterday’s Sub-Committee meeting, the Minister The answer seems to be the potential value of any flats who will reply to this short debate expressed her concern that fall vacant, as these could raise a lot of money if let about the treatment of the tenants, and said that she at market rents or sold to the highest bidder. That could would put it to the Crown Estate that it should conduct happen only if the present arrangement to let vacant a ballot. I therefore hope that she will confirm that she flats to key workers is abandoned. will meet representatives of the Crown Estate, and that None of the hospitals or other bodies that presently she will take that opportunity to ask them to conduct a nominate key workers has been consulted by the Crown ballot. If it does so, we should assume that it will be Estate. In his evidence to the Treasury Sub-Committee expected to abide by the result. The residents associations yesterday, the chief executive said that those bodies had would welcome the opportunity to meet the Minister to been informed, but I can assume that this was only very brief her on their concerns before she meets the Crown recently, because when I checked with some of them last Estate. I and other MPs would be happy to facilitate week, I found that they had got to know about it such a meeting if she agrees. The Minister has the through newspapers, radio and television or as a result power to issue directives to the Crown Estate, but that of my telephone call. should not be necessary if it responds responsibly to her Until this consultation exercise started, it is fair to say request. that most Crown Estate tenants were reasonably satisfied All that the tenants ask is that the Crown Estate lives that the Crown Estate usually acted in good faith. up to its avowed objectives, set out in its latest annual However, doubts have now arisen because the Crown report. It says in that report that it is working towards Estate has stopped re-letting flats that fall vacant. Tenants thriving and sustainable communities and to ensure fear that this is because vacant flats would fetch a that its business activities have a positive economic, higher price in the transaction than flats with sitting social and environmental impact on the wider community. tenants. Yesterday, the chief executive told the Sub- It has been doing that for years at Cumberland Market, Committee that 32 flats were empty at present, but the Victoria Park, Lee Green and Millbank. To achieve its tenants believe that many more than that total are objectives, we all believe that it should leave well alone. already vacant. A further concern is that the existing terms and conditions which the Crown Estate assert would prevail 4.43 pm under a new landlord are set out in the tenancy handbook, Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) but the Crown Estate has just withdrawn the tenancy (Con): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Holborn handbook, which has raised suspicions about its and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) on securing this important commitment to protect the provisions set out in that debate. I associate myself entirely with his words. As he self-same handbook. will know, we have tried to work together, along with A further source of concern is the reports that the the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch tenants have received from former tenants of Church (Meg Hillier). Underlying much of what the right hon. Commissioners’ affordable housing in south London. Gentleman said is the fact that the Crown Estate has 1105 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 4 MARCH 2010 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 1106 Homes) Homes) [Mr. Mark Field] 4.48 pm The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah traditionally been a very good landlord. The communities McCarthy-Fry): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the that it has built have been more stable than many of Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) those we represent in central London, where the turnover on securing this opportunity to debate a matter that is is 20 to 25 per cent. annually. Nothing could be further of great interest to some of his constituents. I understand from the truth in Millbank estate, where a number of that he has represented Holborn and St. Pancras for people have lived for the entirety of their lives, some 50 more than 30 years, and is an assiduous constituency or 60 years, and where communities go through the Member. I recognise the worry and concern felt not just generations. by his constituents but by others, as evidenced by the The Crown Estate has been a force for stability and contribution from the hon. Member for Cities of London continuity in our central London constituencies, so it is and Westminster (Mr. Field) and the presence of my disappointing that we have come to this pass. I cannot hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and help thinking that it was the travails of that organisation Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). I hope that the further details over the past 18 months that persuaded it to look on the that I shall give will go some way towards reassuring my estates as something of a jewel in the crown for the right hon. Friend, the other Members who are present purposes of a quick sale. We hope that good sense will and the House as a whole, and, most important, the prevail and that it will be persuaded that a sale is not yet tenants of the Crown Estate. necessary—either by a general bounce back in the property The Crown Estate is charged with managing the market or in its other investments, or by a recognition property assets owned by the sovereign, whose revenue that it would be better for these communities to remain is automatically paid to the Government. Its remit is to intact and continue to provide the rental incomes to maintain and enhance the value of the estate and the which it has become accustomed. return obtained on it, but with due regard to the requirements of good management. It is charged by law I cannot stress too strongly the sense of community to generate a commercial return from the assets that it that exists in Millbank, which I am sure is also reflected manages, and as such it keeps its asset portfolio under in these estates in other constituencies. There is a tremendous review so that it can decide how to improve its return. It community there. The 640 or so Members of Parliament is currently considering the sale of 1,200 residential who do not represent constituencies in central London units, about 500 of which are in the constituency of my may have the impression that London has a transitory right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. community, but in many ways nothing could be further Pancras. To that effect, it is conducting a consultation from the truth. We all represent a collection of villages exercise, asking its residents for their views about a with a proud sense of history, and over the past 20 or 30 possible sale of the freehold on which their properties years residents’ associations and amenity societies have are situated. I want to emphasise that no decision on done a huge amount to instil a sense not just of history whether to make a sale has taken place yet, and the but of ongoing community. Crown Estate will only make a decision once residents’ I hope that the Minister will give credence to what views are known and fully considered. has been said today. I work closely with local councillors I completely understand the concerns of my right in the Tachbrook and Vincent Square wards, where the hon. Friend and his constituents on this issue. Any Millbank estate is located, but I also do cross-party possibility of change in ownership is, of course, worrying work, which I think is particularly necessary. The hon. for residents. The Crown Estate is considering the sale Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch played a because it believes it is likely that a specialist expert major role in ensuring that we kept Bart’s hospital and residential landlord could provide a better service. It is in securing the important investment in Barts and the also clear that the capital receipts it would generate London NHS Trust, which is covered by Hackney, the from the sale could be used profitably in other parts of City of London and the eastern areas of the Westminster its business, and it may help the House if I explain this. part of my constituency. These issues should extend The Crown Estate is prevented in law from borrowing beyond any sense of partisan politics, and I hope that as most private sector property companies can and do. we will continue to work together and put the interests It must generate capital for its investment and development of our residents first and foremost. activity from disposals of its own assets, essentially by It should be emphasised that key workers are not reordering priorities. If it goes ahead, the sale of its necessarily only in the public sector, especially in central London residential property would be one such disposal. London. Although a number of key workers in the In effect, the Crown Estate would redeploy the proceeds Millbank estate work in local hospitals and schools and within the business. I want to lay to rest a couple of in public sector jobs here in the House of Commons, rumours that are floating around. The Treasury has not some of the people who are the glue in our communities ordered the Crown Estate to sell off vast chunks of its work in newsagents’ shops and other relatively low-paid portfolio to raise money for the Exchequer, and neither retail jobs but are nevertheless committed to living and does the Crown Estate need to sell this part of its estate working in central London. Without the properties in urgently because it is in desperate financial straits. the Crown Estate and other estates in our constituencies, I understand, of course, that the main worry for we will lose that vital social glue. residents is what the outcome of a possible sale may be on their tenancies, and that was the main thrust of my I shall not detain the House any further, Mr. Deputy right hon. Friend’s remarks. Therefore, in order to offer Speaker. Thank you for allowing me to make a brief reassurance I should explain the protections that the contribution. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s Government have been told would be in place if the reply. Crown Estate decided to sell. The first of them is to do 1107 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 4 MARCH 2010 Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of 1108 Homes) Homes) with rents. My right hon. Friend set out some tenants’ the outcome of the consultation and the marketing fears about rents and other terms, and he is especially exercise before making a final decision. troubled about the position of those 35 per cent. who With the uncertainty that this period brings, I know have regulated tenancies. I hope I can alleviate some that people will be worried, but the outcome has not fears by telling Members that the rent officer determines been decided. The Crown Estate will decide from the their rents, and that will not change. Some tenants also content of the feedback that comes through during the benefit from a ceiling rent—the 40 to 60 per cent. consultation process. It will need to be collated, evaluated, referred to in my right hon. Friend’s speech. These rents followed up where necessary, and presented to the Crown cannot rise above a certain percentage of the market Estate board. At the same time, the Crown Estate will rent, and that will not change either. That is protected need to weigh the strength of interest from marketing to by law. potential purchasers, and how the possible new owners’ It is likely that some of these residents, if not most, proposals stack up. It has set out its requirement that it will be key workers, and this means that the rental will consider a sale only to a specialist in the residential framework that the Crown Estate’s tenants enjoy would housing field. It also recognises its obligation as a good not change if there were a sale. Rents might, of course, landlord to look after its tenants’ interests in selecting a change, but within the same rules that the Crown Estate new owner, if indeed there is one. operates under now. Tenants’ other contractual rights I can assure the House that no decision will be made would also be protected in the event of a sale. The in haste; it could take several months before it is clear process is not quite the same as a block transfer of what will happen, and during that time the tenants will housing assets by a local authority, although there are have plenty of opportunity to have their say. The Crown some similarities. One important right is that, as a Estate has advised that it will keep tenants informed as matter of law, any new owner would have to honour the process moves forward. As the consultation process existing tenancies. Another protection is that if there draws to a close, I plan to meet the Crown Estate are enough regulated tenants who are leaseholders with commissioners to hear their conclusions on the consultation long tenancies in a particular building, and they want to process and to find out what interest the marketing buy it for themselves, the Crown Estate will give them process has thrown up. I will want to assure myself that right of first refusal. the action planned by the commissioners is in line with Naturally, I was disappointed to hear from my right their statutory duties and takes full account of the hon. Friend that some of his constituents thought that wider public interest. I of course intend to raise the the Crown Estate was behaving in a secretive or high-handed issue of tenants ballots at that meeting, and before that way. I hope that residents will express their views through I will be more than happy to meet my right hon. Friend the various avenues that are available. The consultation with some of his constituents to hear their concerns. process remains open, and I understand that the Crown The Crown Estate has a very strong sense of its Estate has also provided drop-in centres so that tenants responsibilities as steward of public resources. It manages can talk over their personal positions, any aspect of the its property assets as a trust and is conscious of who proposed sale that troubles them, or the proposal at owns the assets it manages and who receives the income. large. Also, the chairman and chief executive of the I hope that I can reassure my right hon. Friend that the Crown Estate plan to meet the residents’ associations question of selling this part of its asset portfolio arises during the consultation process so that they can hear out of a strategic stock take and, as I have said, for no tenants’ views at first hand. other reason. As for the view that the Crown Estate has been My right hon. Friend secured today’s debate to address secretive, I hope and believe that this might be a result the concerns of some of his constituents, and I am glad of circumstance, rather than an attempt to hide from that we have been able to have it. I hope that I have been people what is going on. The Crown Estate needs to able to go some way to give assurances and, as ever, I protect the commercial positions of possible purchasers, would encourage his constituents and those of other and talks with possible new owners will continue well Members to play a full part in the consultation exercise, into March. The Crown Estate will then produce a so that their concerns can be fully taken into account. “findings” document—a summary of the responses to Question put and agreed to. the consultation—which will be circulated to residents within two weeks of the end of the consultation period 4.57 pm on 23 March. After this, the Crown Estate will consider House adjourned. 1109 4 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 1110

Deferred Divisions Flint, rh Caroline Jones, Helen Flynn, Paul Jones, Mr. Kevan Follett, Barbara Joyce, Mr. Eric SOCIAL SECURITY Foster, Mr. Michael Kawczynski, Daniel That the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2010, (Worcester) Keeble, Ms Sally which was laid before this House on 27 January, be approved. Foster, Michael Jabez Keeley, Barbara The House divided: Ayes 404, Noes 53. (Hastings and Rye) Keen, Ann Division No. 95] Fox, Dr. Liam Kelly, rh Ruth Francis, Dr. Hywel Kemp, Mr. Fraser Francois, Mr. Mark Key, Robert AYES Fraser, Christopher Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gapes, Mike Kidney, Mr. David Afriyie, Adam Caton, Mr. Martin Garnier, Mr. Edward Kirkbride, Miss Julie Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cawsey, Mr. Ian Gauke, Mr. David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Chope, Mr. Christopher Gerrard, Mr. Neil Knight, rh Jim Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Clappison, Mr. James Gibb, Mr. Nick Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Amess, Mr. David Clark, Greg Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Anderson, Mr. David Clark, Ms Katy Godsiff, Mr. Roger Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Anderson, Janet Clark, Paul Goggins, rh Paul Lancaster, Mr. Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Goodman, Helen Laxton, Mr. Bob Armstrong, rh Hilary Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Goodwill, Mr. Robert Lazarowicz, Mark Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clarke,rhMr.Tom Gray, Mr. James Lepper, David Bain, Mr. William Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Grayling, Chris Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Baird, Vera Clwyd, rh Ann Green, Damian Levitt, Tom Balls, rh Ed Coffey, Ann Greening, Justine Lewis, Mr. Ivan Banks, Gordon Cohen, Harry Grieve, Mr. Dominic Lewis, Dr. Julian Barlow, Ms Celia Connarty, Michael Griffith, Nia Lidington, Mr. David Baron, Mr. John Cook, Frank Griffiths, Nigel Linton, Martin Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cooper, Rosie Grogan, Mr. John Lloyd, Tony Battle, rh John Cooper, rh Yvette Gummer, rh Mr. John Loughton, Tim Bayley, Hugh Cormack, Sir Patrick Hague, rh Mr. William Love, Mr. Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hain, rh Mr. Peter Luff, Peter Begg, Miss Anne Crausby, Mr. David Hall, Mr. Mike Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Bell, Sir Stuart Creagh, Mary Hall, Patrick Mackinlay, Andrew Bellingham, Mr. Henry Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Mr. David MacNeil, Mr. Angus Benn, rh Hilary Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hammond, Mr. Philip Mactaggart, Fiona Benton, Mr. Joe Cummings, John Hammond, Stephen Main, Anne Benyon, Mr. Richard Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hands, Mr. Greg Malins, Mr. Humfrey Berry, Roger Cunningham, Tony Hanson, rh Mr. David Mallaber, Judy Betts, Mr. Clive Curry, rh Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mann, John Binley, Mr. Brian David, Mr. Wayne Harper, Mr. Mark Marris, Rob Blackman, Liz Davidson, Mr. Ian Heald, Mr. Oliver Marsden, Mr. Gordon Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Davies, Mr. Dai Heathcoat-Amory, rh Martlew, Mr. Eric Blears, rh Hazel Davies, Philip Mr. David Mason, John Blizzard, Mr. Bob Davis, rh David Henderson, Mr. Doug May, rh Mrs. Theresa Blunkett, rh Mr. David Dean, Mrs. Janet Hendry, Charles McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Blunt, Mr. Crispin Denham, rh Mr. John Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McCabe, Steve Bone, Mr. Peter Dismore, Mr. Andrew Heppell, Mr. John McCarthy, Kerry Borrow, Mr. David S. Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Herbert, Nick McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Boswell, Mr. Tim Dobbin, Jim Hill, rh Keith McCrea, Dr. William Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Dobson, rh Frank Hoban, Mr. Mark McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Brady, Mr. Graham Dodds, Mr. Nigel Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon McDonnell, John Brazier, Mr. Julian Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Hollobone, Mr. Philip McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Brennan, Kevin Doran, Mr. Frank Holloway, Mr. Adam McFall, rh John Brokenshire, James Dorries, Nadine Hopkins, Kelvin McGrady, Mr. Eddie Brown, Lyn Dowd, Jim Horam, Mr. John McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Duddridge, James Howard, rh Mr. Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Brown, Mr. Russell Duncan, Alan Howarth, Mr. Gerald McIsaac, Shona Bryant, Chris Dunne, Mr. Philip Howell, John McKechin, Ann Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Angela Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Burgon, Colin Eagle, Maria Humble, Mrs. Joan Meale, Mr. Alan Burnham, rh Andy Efford, Clive Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Merron, Gillian Burns, Mr. Simon Ellman, Mrs. Louise Hurd, Mr. Nick Michael, rh Alun Burrowes, Mr. David Etherington, Bill Hutton, rh Mr. John Miliband, rh Edward Burt, Alistair Evans, Mr. Nigel Iddon, Dr. Brian Miller, Mrs. Maria Butler, Ms Dawn Evennett, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Butterfill, Sir John Fabricant, Michael Jack, rh Mr. Michael Moffatt, Laura Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Fallon, Mr. Michael Jackson, Mr. Stewart Mole, Chris Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Farrelly, Paul James, Mrs. Siân C. Morden, Jessica Cairns, David Field, rh Mr. Frank Jenkins, Mr. Brian Morgan, Julie Campbell, Mr. Alan Field, Mr. Mark Johnson, Ms Diana R. Moss, Mr. Malcolm Campbell, Mr. Gregory Fitzpatrick, Jim Jones, Mr. David Mullin, Mr. Chris 1111 Deferred Divisions4 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 1112

Munn, Meg Spelman, Mrs. Caroline NOES Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Spicer, Sir Michael Baker, Norman Kramer, Susan Murrison, Dr. Andrew Spink, Bob Barrett, John Lamb, Norman Naysmith, Dr. Doug Spring, Mr. Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan Laws, Mr. David Neill, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Brake, Tom Leech, Mr. John Newmark, Mr. Brooks Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Breed, Mr. Colin Moore, Mr. Michael Norris, Dan Stoate, Dr. Howard Brooke, Annette Mulholland, Greg O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Browne, Mr. Jeremy Öpik, Lembit O’Hara, Mr. Edward Straw, rh Mr. Jack Cable, Dr. Vincent Pelling, Mr. Andrew Olner, Mr. Bill Streeter, Mr. Gary Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Pugh, Dr. John Osborne, Mr. George Stringer, Graham Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Reid, Mr. Alan Osborne, Sandra Stuart, Ms Gisela Corbyn, Jeremy Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Stuart, Mr. Graham Rennie, Willie Drew, Mr. David Rogerson, Dan Paterson, Mr. Owen Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Durkan, Mark Penning, Mike Swayne, Mr. Desmond Russell, Bob Farron, Tim Sanders, Mr. Adrian Penrose, John Swire, Mr. Hugo Featherstone, Lynne Smith, Sir Robert Pickles, Mr. Eric Syms, Mr. Robert Foster, Mr. Don Stunell, Andrew Plaskitt, Mr. James Tami, Mark Gidley, Sandra Swinson, Jo Pope, Mr. Greg Tapsell, Sir Peter Goldsworthy, Julia Teather, Sarah Pound, Stephen Taylor, Dr. Richard Hancock, Mr. Mike Prentice, Bridget Thornberry, Emily Harris, Dr. Evan Walter, Mr. Robert Prentice, Mr. Gordon Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Heath, Mr. David Webb, Steve Primarolo, rh Dawn Timpson, Mr. Edward Hemming, John Williams, Mark Prisk, Mr. Mark Tipping, Paddy Holmes, Paul Williams, Mr. Roger Pritchard, Mark Todd, Mr. Mark Howarth, David Williams, Stephen Prosser, Gwyn Touhig, rh Mr. Don Huhne, Chris Willis, Mr. Phil Purchase, Mr. Ken Tredinnick, David Hunter, Mark Willott, Jenny Randall, Mr. John Trickett, Jon Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Winterton, Ann Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Truswell, Mr. Paul Redwood, rh Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Reed, Mr. Andy Turner, Dr. Desmond Question accordingly agreed to. Reed, Mr. Jamie Turner, Mr. Neil Reid, rh John Twigg, Derek LICENCES AND LICENSING Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Riordan, Mrs. Linda Ussher, Kitty That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Licensing Conditions) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on Robathan, Mr. Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward 27 January, be approved. Robertson, Angus Vara, Mr. Shailesh Robertson, Hugh Villiers, Mrs. Theresa The House divided: Ayes 245, Noes 162. Robertson, John Walker, Mr. Charles Division No. 96] Robertson, Mr. Laurence Wallace, Mr. Ben Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Walley, Joan AYES Rooney, Mr. Terry Waltho, Lynda Rosindell, Andrew Ward, Claire Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Roy, Mr. Frank Waterson, Mr. Nigel Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Brown, Mr. Russell Roy, Lindsay Watkinson, Angela Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Bryant, Chris Ruane, Chris Watson, Mr. Tom Anderson, Mr. David Buck, Ms Karen Ruddock, Joan Watts, Mr. Dave Anderson, Janet Burgon, Colin Ruffley, Mr. David Weir, Mr. Mike Armstrong, rh Hilary Burnham, rh Andy Russell, Christine Whitehead, Dr. Alan Bailey, Mr. Adrian Butler, Ms Dawn Salter, Martin Whittingdale, Mr. John Bain, Mr. William Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Wicks, rh Malcolm Baird, Vera Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Seabeck, Alison Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Balls, rh Ed Cairns, David Selous, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr. Alan Shapps, Grant Willetts, Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Sharma, Mr. Virendra Williams, rh Mr. Alan Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Caton, Mr. Martin Sheerman, Mr. Barry Williams, Mrs. Betty Battle, rh John Cawsey, Mr. Ian Sheridan, Jim Williams, Hywel Bayley, Hugh Clark, Ms Katy Simmonds, Mark Wilson, Phil Beckett, rh Margaret Clark, Paul Simpson, Alan Wilson, Mr. Rob Begg, Miss Anne Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Simpson, David Wilson, Sammy Bell, Sir Stuart Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Simpson, Mr. Keith Winterton, Sir Nicholas Benn, rh Hilary Clwyd, rh Ann Skinner, Mr. Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Benton, Mr. Joe Coffey, Ann Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wishart, Pete Berry, Roger Cohen, Harry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Wright, Mr. Anthony Betts, Mr. Clive Connarty, Michael Smith, Ms Angela C. Wright, David Blackman, Liz Cook, Frank (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Wright, Mr. Iain Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cooper, Rosie Smith, Chloe Wright, Jeremy Blears, rh Hazel Cooper, rh Yvette Smith, Geraldine Wright, Dr. Tony Blizzard, Mr. Bob Corbyn, Jeremy Smith, rh Jacqui Wyatt, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David Soulsby, Sir Peter Yeo, Mr. Tim Borrow, Mr. David S. Creagh, Mary Spellar, rh Mr. John Young, rh Sir George Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cruddas, Jon Brennan, Kevin Cryer, Mrs. Ann Brown, Lyn Cummings, John 1113 Deferred Divisions4 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 1114

Cunningham, Mr. Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Ms Angela C. Truswell, Mr. Paul Cunningham, Tony Lepper, David (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Turner, Dr. Desmond David, Mr. Wayne Levitt, Tom Smith, Geraldine Turner, Mr. Neil Davidson, Mr. Ian Lewis, Mr. Ivan Smith, rh Jacqui Twigg, Derek Dean, Mrs. Janet Linton, Martin Soulsby, Sir Peter Ussher, Kitty Denham, rh Mr. John Lloyd, Tony Spellar, rh Mr. John Walley, Joan Dismore, Mr. Andrew Love, Mr. Andrew Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Waltho, Lynda Dobbin, Jim Mackinlay, Andrew Stoate, Dr. Howard Ward, Claire Dobson, rh Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Watson, Mr. Tom Doran, Mr. Frank Mallaber, Judy Straw, rh Mr. Jack Watts, Mr. Dave Dowd, Jim Mann, John Stringer, Graham Whitehead, Dr. Alan Drew, Mr. David Marris, Rob Stuart, Ms Gisela Wicks, rh Malcolm Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Williams, rh Mr. Alan Eagle, Angela Martlew, Mr. Eric Tami, Mark Williams, Mrs. Betty Eagle, Maria McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Taylor, Dr. Richard Wilson, Phil Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Ellman, Mrs. Louise McCarthy, Kerry Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wright, Mr. Anthony Etherington, Bill McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Tipping, Paddy Wright, David Farrelly, Paul McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Mr. Iain Field, rh Mr. Frank McDonnell, John Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wright, Dr. Tony Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Trickett, Jon Wyatt, Derek Flint, rh Caroline McFall, rh John Flynn, Paul McGrady, Mr. Eddie NOES Follett, Barbara McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Foster, Mr. Michael McIsaac, Shona Afriyie, Adam Goodwill, Mr. Robert (Worcester) McKechin, Ann Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Gray, Mr. James Foster, Michael Jabez Meale, Mr. Alan Amess, Mr. David Green, Damian (Hastings and Rye) Merron, Gillian Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Greening, Justine Francis, Dr. Hywel Michael, rh Alun Baron, Mr. John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Gapes, Mike Miliband, rh Edward Bellingham, Mr. Henry Gummer, rh Mr. John Gerrard, Mr. Neil Moffatt, Laura Benyon, Mr. Richard Hague, rh Mr. William Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mole, Chris Binley, Mr. Brian Hammond, Mr. Philip Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hammond, Stephen Goodman, Helen Morgan, Julie Bone, Mr. Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Grayling, Chris Mullin, Mr. Chris Boswell, Mr. Tim Harper, Mr. Mark Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Brady, Mr. Graham Heald, Mr. Oliver Griffiths, Nigel Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Brazier, Mr. Julian Heath, Mr. David Hain, rh Mr. Peter Naysmith, Dr. Doug Brokenshire, James Heathcoat-Amory, rh Hall, Mr. Mike Norris, Dan Burns, Mr. Simon Mr. David Hall, Patrick O’Hara, Mr. Edward Burrowes, Mr. David Hendry, Charles Hamilton, Mr. David Olner, Mr. Bill Burt, Alistair Herbert, Nick Hancock, Mr. Mike Osborne, Sandra Butterfill, Sir John Hoban, Mr. Mark Hanson, rh Mr. David Plaskitt, Mr. James Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hollobone, Mr. Philip Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pope, Mr. Greg Chope, Mr. Christopher Holloway, Mr. Adam Henderson, Mr. Doug Pound, Stephen Clark, Greg Horam, Mr. John Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Prentice, Bridget Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Howard, rh Mr. Michael Heppell, Mr. John Prentice, Mr. Gordon Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Howarth, Mr. Gerald Hill, rh Keith Primarolo, rh Dawn Cormack, Sir Patrick Howell, John Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Prosser, Gwyn Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Hopkins, Kelvin Purchase, Mr. Ken Curry, rh Mr. David Hurd, Mr. Nick Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Davies, Mr. Dai Jack, rh Mr. Michael Humble, Mrs. Joan Reed, Mr. Andy Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr. Stewart Hutton, rh Mr. John Reed, Mr. Jamie Davis, rh David Jones, Mr. David Iddon, Dr. Brian Reid, rh John Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Illsley, Mr. Eric Riordan, Mrs. Linda Dodds, Mr. Nigel Key, Robert James, Mrs. Siân C. Robertson, John Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Kirkbride, Miss Julie Jenkins, Mr. Brian Rooney, Mr. Terry Dorries, Nadine Knight, rh Mr. Greg Johnson, Ms Diana R. Roy, Mr. Frank Duddridge, James Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Duncan, Alan Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Jones, Mr. Kevan Ruane, Chris Dunne, Mr. Philip Lancaster, Mr. Mark Jones, Lynne Ruddock, Joan Evans, Mr. Nigel Laws, Mr. David Joyce, Mr. Eric Russell, Christine Evennett, Mr. David Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Keeble, Ms Sally Salter, Martin Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Dr. Julian Keeley, Barbara Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Fallon, Mr. Michael Lidington, Mr. David Keen, Ann Seabeck, Alison Field, Mr. Mark Loughton, Tim Kelly, rh Ruth Sharma, Mr. Virendra Fox, Dr. Liam Luff, Peter Kemp, Mr. Fraser Sheerman, Mr. Barry Francois, Mr. Mark Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Fraser, Christopher Main, Anne Kidney, Mr. David Simpson, Alan Garnier, Mr. Edward Malins, Mr. Humfrey Knight, rh Jim Skinner, Mr. Dennis Gauke, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Slaughter, Mr. Andy Gibb, Mr. Nick McCrea, Dr. William Laxton, Mr. Bob Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne 1115 Deferred Divisions4 MARCH 2010 Deferred Divisions 1116

McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Stuart, Mr. Graham Waterson, Mr. Nigel Miller, Mrs. Maria Robathan, Mr. Andrew Swayne, Mr. Desmond Watkinson, Angela Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Robertson, Hugh Swire, Mr. Hugo Whittingdale, Mr. John Moss, Mr. Malcolm Robertson, Mr. Laurence Syms, Mr. Robert Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Murrison, Dr. Andrew Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Tapsell, Sir Peter Wiggin, Bill Neill, Robert Rosindell, Andrew Timpson, Mr. Edward Willetts, Mr. David Newmark, Mr. Brooks Ruffley, Mr. David Tredinnick, David Williams, Hywel O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Selous, Andrew Turner, Mr. Andrew Wilson, Mr. Rob Osborne, Mr. George Shapps, Grant Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Wilson, Sammy Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Simmonds, Mark Vaizey, Mr. Edward Winterton, Ann Paterson, Mr. Owen Simpson, David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Pelling, Mr. Andrew Simpson, Mr. Keith Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Winterton, Sir Nicholas Penning, Mike Smith, Chloe Walker, Mr. Charles Wright, Jeremy Penrose, John Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Wallace, Mr. Ben Yeo, Mr. Tim Pickles, Mr. Eric Spicer, Sir Michael Walter, Mr. Robert Young, rh Sir George Prisk, Mr. Mark Spink, Bob Pritchard, Mark Spring, Mr. Richard Question accordingly agreed to. Randall, Mr. John Stanley, rh Sir John Redwood, rh Mr. John Streeter, Mr. Gary

325WH 4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 326WH

and Russia. The UK, France and China, the other three Westminster Hall nuclear weapons states that are signatory to the non- proliferation treaty, have much smaller arsenals. Thursday 4 March 2010 Owing to the lack of progress under the Bush Administration on these issues, and their lack of interest in all things to do with negotiated multilateral or bilateral [HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] disarmament, we are in a situation today where the non-proliferation review conference can be put at risk Global Security (Non-Proliferation) unless there is a significant move on these matters, collectively, by the nuclear weapons states—that means, [Relevant documents: Fourth Report from the Foreign in essence, a move this year by the United States and Affairs Committee, Session 2008-09, on Global Security: Russia. I will say more about that in a moment. Non-proliferation, HC 222, and the Government response, Paragraph 114 concludes: Cm 7692.] “without decisive movement by the five recognised nuclear weapons Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting states as a whole on nuclear disarmament measures, there is a risk be now adjourned.—[Mr. Ivan Lewis.] that the 2010 Review Conference will fail, like its 2005 predecessor— during a critical period for dealing with North Korea and attempting 2.30 pm to constrain Iran’s nuclear programme.” Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): I am delighted We called for the Government to do more on these to introduce the fourth report of the Foreign Affairs matters. I should like formally to take this opportunity Committee, which will, I guess, be the last report to be to thank the Government for “The Road to 2010” debated in this Parliament. The report, entitled “Global document, which was published by the Cabinet Office. Security: Non-Proliferation”, was published on 14 June There was a certain procedural problem, in that our 2009, and the Government response was published in Committee was not given a copy quickly, although it August 2009. Inevitably, a lot of things have happened was put into the public domain while the Prime Minister since then. Even in the interim between our report’s was answering questions at the Liaison Committee. I publication and the Government’s response, the Cabinet received the press release—but not the document—at Office published “The Road to 2010: Addressing the that point, so it was rather difficult for us. That, however, Nuclear Question in the 21st Century”, a position paper is a process problem between the Cabinet Office, which on the approach that the Government have taken in the sponsored the document, and the other Departments. run-up to the important non-proliferation treaty review We hope that in future the Cabinet Office will bear in conference, which is due to start in May. mind that Select Committees have an interest and that our Committee had an explicitly stated interest in these Given the importance of that conference, it is essential matters. We should have had that document directly in that we have a detailed debate now in Parliament on advance, before it appeared on the websites and in the what is happening. The previous review conference, in national daily newspapers. 2005, was a failure and there are real threats to the non-proliferation regime, including from North Korea Paragraph 115 of our report highlighted relatively and Iran and from the potential development of a well defined international agenda on nuclear disarmament nuclear arms race throughout the middle east from steps in respect of which there is international consensus Arab neighbours of Iran, responding to that. There is on a lot of matters, such as: also a change in the political relations between the “entry into force of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, United States and Russia and the tentative commencement the start of negotiations on a Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty, and of dialogue between India and Pakistan. Not everything measures to scale down, de-alert and make more transparent existing nuclear arsenals. We recommend that the Government is negative. There is no progress in the middle east in should aim to come away from the 2010 NPT Review Conference respect of Israel and the Palestinians and potential with agreement on a concrete plan to take the multilateral nuclear areas of conflict, but there are some positive political disarmament process forward, with target dates for” developments as we approach the review conference. all those areas and commitments from both I should like to highlight the essence of the concerns “nuclear and non-nuclear weapons States Parties to ensure and conclusions of our report. I am afraid that I implementation.” shall quote an extensive passage from the report— paragraph 114, which is also quoted in paragraph 14 of I should be grateful if the Minister updated us on the the Government response. I want to place it on the progress that has already been made, as well as on what record, as it is important. It states: progress he expects will be made in future. “We conclude that the five recognised nuclear weapons states There are problems. A number of countries are not have widely varying records as regards nuclear disarmament and party to the non-proliferation treaty. India regards it as arms control over the last decade. We welcome the fact that of the an unequal treaty and therefore has not signed. Pakistan five the record of the UK has been the best. However, we also is also a nuclear weapons state, yet it has not signed. I conclude that, owing to the way in which the Nuclear Non- understand that the Pakistanis are the main reason why Proliferation Treaty…enshrines a distinction between nuclear and we are not making progress on the fissile missile cut-off non-nuclear weapons States Parties, the five recognised nuclear treaty; they have made objections in the United Nations powers are often perceived as a group by the non-nuclear weapons states, and that, as such, the group is seen collectively to have negotiations process. failed to live up to the nuclear disarmament commitments made North Korea is a signatory to the non-proliferation at the 1995 and 2000 NPT Review Conferences.” treaty but has carried out nuclear weapons tests, although The important point that we are making is that the whether they were successful or not is debatable. vast majority of the nuclear arsenals in the world are Nevertheless, the North Koreans claim that they have a held by the two nuclear superpowers: the United States nuclear weapon—and their neighbours believe that they 327WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 328WH

[Mike Gapes] whether it was a nuclear weapons-related facility, but I understand that it was more likely that it was. It was do—and they are in open defiance of the treaty and suggested that the North Koreans had assisted the have said that they have withdrawn from it. One of our Syrians to develop that facility, which the Israelis, perhaps report’s conclusions was that strong measures, including with intelligence gained from elsewhere, promptly bombed. sanctions, should be taken against countries that withdraw In our report, we drew attention to the interesting from such a treaty. question of why the International Atomic Energy Agency Iran has not withdrawn from the non-proliferation was not made aware of the existence of that facility by treaty review, but it is in breach of its obligations under the Syrians or, pertinently, by the United States and that treaty, particularly with regard to the additional other countries that clearly had the intelligence to give protocol and successive UN Security Council resolutions. some idea of what was going on. We commented on The American Administration have extended the hand that in our report. In paragraph 94, we drew attention of friendship, to use President Obama’s words, but that to the long-standing aspiration for a weapons of mass has been rebuffed. The Iranians seem to be taking on a destruction-free zone in the middle east, and pointed position that will inevitably lead to strengthened sanctions out that the Government should try to do more under from the international community. the European Union’s Mediterranean process to work Interestingly, the Russian Government, who until a for such an objective. In their helpful response, the few weeks ago had been cautious about having tightened Government used an interesting phrase. They called on sanctions on Iran, now seem to have moved their position all states in the region to take practical steps in appropriate to support a tighter regime. The problem now in the forums aimed at Security Council is China, and its relationship with “making progress towards the establishment of an effectively Iran. Gas imports are probably a major determinant in verifiable Middle East zone free from weapons of mass destruction.” that, but China’s attitude to bilateral issues with the Clearly, the phrase “effectively verifiable” is the essence United States over arms sales to Taiwan and so on may of the problem. also be involved. I shall be interested in the Minister’s Given that most countries in the region do not recognise assessment of that. the existence of Israel, that there is no peace agreement Professor Ali Ansari, the renowned academic, wrote with Syria and that there is a cold peace with Jordan recently with reference to the Iranian regime: and Egypt, there is clearly a long way to go before “The meaning of it all, of course, is that foreign policy has achieving effectively verifiable zones free from anything. always been subservient to domestic needs and that the deliberate I hope that the Minister will touch on the significance raising of the nuclear spectre is intended to divert attention at and importance of that. I argue strongly that we should home and abroad. At home the government believes that the not allow the non-proliferation treaty to be put in hock spirit of confrontation can help rebuild a badly damaged legitimacy, to regional disputes—whether the Israeli-Palestinian while the heightened preoccupation with the nuclear crisis can be conflict, the dispute between India and Pakistan over used to convince Iranians that the west has no real interest in their Kashmir or any other. Those are wider issues, and we human rights and democratic aspirations. Like all good demagogues, Ahmadinejad knows how to peddle fear and exploit paranoia, must try to make progress so that the review conference whether it resides in the east or the west.” comes up with a positive agenda, a timetable and—I was about to say “road map”, but in the context of the That is a good summary of how the Iranian regime is middle east I will not—a plan for the future. trying to use the heightened tensions about the nuclear issue to reduce support for the Opposition following the rigged elections last year. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I apologise for missing the first 10 minutes of my hon. Friend’s I do not want to take up too much time, and I am speech. His Committee delivered a commendably detailed conscious that we may have a series of votes that will report. Does he believe that a useful outcome of the disrupt our proceedings, but it is important that I non-proliferation treaty review might be the establishment should highlight some of the most important aspects in of a nuclear weapons convention, which obviously could our report. It went much wider than just nuclear weapons. include all countries, irrespective of whether they were It deals with a range of issues and includes references to signatories to the NPT? Clearly, NPT membership is chemical and biological weapons, cluster munitions, the restricted to the haves and the have-nots, but those who arms trade treaty and the prospects for conventional have just obtained nuclear weapons cannot be included disarmament. I do not have time to go into all the in the system. conclusions or the Government’s response, so I want to focus on the non-proliferation treaty review conference. Mike Gapes: I am not sure whether another negotiating One reason for the conference’s failure in 2005 was forum would help us; I would need to be convinced of the perennial difficulties in the middle east, and there that. We said in our report that there are loads—too has been no progress on the negotiation of a comprehensive many—disarmament forums around the world. In their settlement of the middle east dispute. As a result, it is response, the Government did not agree, but setting up highly likely that Israel’s nuclear weapons programme another talking shop is not what we need. We need will feature in the debates on the nuclear non-proliferation concrete action to ensure that existing conventions and treaty. Israel’s internal politics cannot be easily influenced treaties are complied with. from outside. Members of our Committee recently visited Most importantly, under article 6 of the non-proliferation Israel. There is a clear concentration on security concerns treaty, the declared nuclear weapons states agree to in Israel, as in Iran, and such matters have a relationship. act in good faith to secure real measures of nuclear At the same time, there was the mysterious episode of disarmament with an aspiration for total global nuclear the Israeli bombing of the facility in Syria, which the disarmament. That should be upheld, and in that context Syrians had not made public. No one is quite sure I was encouraged by President Obama’s speech in Prague 329WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 330WH last year. I was also encouraged by the report in the on them. It is important that we get the opportunity to International Herald Tribune on 2 March, two days ago, reply to the Government response to the Committee’s about Obama’s commitment to move towards significant report. reductions in the US nuclear arsenal. There were earlier I have already mentioned the first point, which is the reports in February of tentative moves towards a possible sheer number of organisations and initiatives and the agreement between the Americans and the Russians on need to simplify, rather than complicate, the disarmament strategic arms reduction. process and non-proliferation architecture. Secondly, According to my information, there are still large the Committee was critical of the India-US civil nuclear arsenals of such weapons, and both the Americans and co-operation deal because we thought that it could the Russians could make very deep cuts in their strategic undermine the non-proliferation regime by implicitly arsenals without moving away from a nuclear deterrent accepting India as a nuclear weapons state outside the policy. Russia could retire some old and dangerous treaty. The Government did not agree with that, but I systems that are probably unusable. We therefore have am not convinced by their response. the prospect of deep reductions, which would go a Thirdly, we concluded that there should be changes considerable way towards strengthening the argument and reductions to the operational readiness of nuclear against those who believe that this is an unequal treaty weapons, in order to enhance international security. We and that the nuclear weapons states have failed to also raised questions about the Trident programme, the comply with their aspirations. possible delay in moving towards the initial gate decision and the contribution that holding back on the renewal However, there are complications to the US-Russia of Trident might make to the prospects of a move relationship. First, the Russians have adopted a new towards negotiation on multilateral disarmament involving posture that defines NATO as the main enemy. Members Britain’s existing nuclear weapons. I would be interested of the Committee were in Brussels last Monday and to hear the ministerial thinking on that as we approach Tuesday, and we heard about that in some detail during the non-proliferation review conference, and in the light discussions. Russia says that its main enemy is not of budgetary pressures within the Ministry of Defence. terrorism, Islamist fundamentalism or climate change— What time scale is envisaged for the renewal of Trident although one would not expect that from the Russians—but and what will be the implications of that on the number NATO. That sits oddly in the context of the new of warheads that we have in the UK? opening up of dialogue and potential agreement with the Americans. “The Road to 2010” document touches on that issue, and the written response to our recommendations referred Secondly, there is the question of missile defence. At to the Prime Minister’s statement about a potential what point does missile defence become an obstacle to move towards having three submarines rather than four, further nuclear weapons reduction? President Obama or to having submarines with fewer missiles. The current and Vice-President Biden have changed the American Trident submarine has 16 missiles, and that number position from that of the Bush Administration and could be reduced to 12. Although I accept that we have taken a new approach. Instead of having anti-ballistic made moves over the past decade, I would be grateful if missiles in Poland to shoot down nuclear missiles, and the Minister told us whether the Government have any radar in the Czech Republic, that completely different thoughts about what additional moves Britain could approach will now focus on southern Europe—Bulgaria make to further progress towards international nuclear and Romania—and on putting missiles in the Arab disarmament. Gulf states to defend against a potential Iranian nuclear weapons programme. Mr.EdwardDavey(Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): As we approach the May conference, would it be helpful if At one level that is worrying because it almost implicitly the Government went on the record to say that they states that the route of disarmament and sanctions will would be prepared to delay the currently envisaged not necessarily stop the Iranians from getting a nuclear timetable for the renewal of Trident as a sign that they weapon. It also means, however, that it cannot be want to engage and that, if there were positive movements argued that such measures are in any way directed at New York, they would not go ahead with that renewal? against the Russian strategic nuclear arsenal. Russia’s nuclear arsenal is not based anywhere near the Caspian Mike Gapes: I can quote the exact words stated by sea, and it is likely that the Russians will take a different the Committee last year: approach to such matters. “The Government should specify—in the light of international If the ballistic missile defence model grows during disarmament developments by that time—the state of a multilateral the next phase—rounds two, three and four—it could nuclear disarmament process that would trigger UK participation. potentially become global. In those circumstances, the We further recommend that the Government should specify whether American offer to the Russians of a co-operative there are circumstances under which the UK would be prepared to suspend the Trident renewal programme.” relationship with NATO on such matters is vital. The last thing we want is an anti-missile arms race alongside That is from paragraph 138 of the report. a nuclear arms race, or for measures that stop further nuclear arms reduction to come about through the Jeremy Corbyn: I welcome the points that have been ongoing negotiations. made in the report. Does my hon. Friend have any idea about how much money has thus far been committed I will conclude with two or three other points. The either to the replacement of the submarines or to the Committee made a number of recommendations, many development of a missile system? Would it be useful if of which the Government agreed to. However, some the Government were more open about that issue, recommendations were not agreed to, and I want to particularly in advance of the nuclear non-proliferation touch on a few of those points and press the Minister treaty conference in May? 331WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 332WH

Mike Gapes: I cannot answer that question. The This morning, I heard on the radio—other hon. Committee’s report was not a detailed report on Trident. Members may have heard the same report—that one of The Defence Committee made a detailed inquiry on our sister Committees, the Defence Committee, in a that issue and asked a number of questions. It got some report published today, has panned its Department, the information from the Government as a response, but Ministry of Defence, for inadequate co-operation. Indeed, such matters need to be pursued by my hon. Friend I think that the Committee accused the Department of through other channels rather than through me. obfuscation in its dealings with the Committee, in the There are one or two other points of difference. The context, I think, of a report on defence procurement. Government rejected some of our recommendations on Therefore, I would like to say to the Minister that, for chemical and biological weapons, but I will not go into my part, the Foreign Secretary’s 34-page response to that now. They said that they would only consider—rather our report was extremely informative and extremely than advocate—the inclusion in future international detailed, and provided a justifiably serious response to agreements of a defined set of “disagreeable consequences” what I believe is a weighty and significant report by the that would act as a deterrent to states flouting their Foreign Affairs Committee. I express my appreciation commitments or withdrawing. I have already given the to the ministerial team and the FCO officials for the example of North Korea. content and detail of their response. Overall, although the Committee has not necessarily I shall focus my remarks on non-proliferation of reached a collective decision, we are pleased at the nuclear weapons, but in doing so, I want to make it clear number of recommendations that we made with which that, historically and in reality, the one proven weapon the Government agreed. I am also pleased that through of mass destruction has been conventional weapons, “The Road to 2010” document, the conference that was and of course conventional weapons have been responsible held last September and other developments, the for the deaths of tens of millions of people in the grim Government are taking our suggestions seriously. Just conflicts of the two world wars in the last century and on 15 February, the Committee received a detailed in many other conflicts. Therefore, although I do not letter from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office setting have time to deal at great length with conventional out responses to recommendations that we had made. weapons proliferation, and I want to focus on nuclear That letter gave further information and updated us on and other weapons of mass destruction, I want to put the developments in the period since the original response down a clear marker on the key importance of preventing was published last August. That is all very welcome. proliferation and trying to reduce the proliferation of The world is at a crucial moment. If the non-proliferation conventional weapons also. treaty review conference is a success and the resetting of It is fair to say that, not too many years ago, it was relations between the United States and Russia leads to possible to look at the weapons of mass destruction significant reductions in their nuclear arsenals, and if at global picture with a degree of guarded optimism. One the same time there is a united international response might have even used the expression “an approach to through the United Nations Security Council, with sunlit uplands”, but that might have been going a bit China coming on board, to Iran’s breach of its obligations too far. However, a few years ago, one could have under the NPT, we will send a clear signal about the reflected on the fact that major international treaties importance of the 1968 non-proliferation treaty, which across the board were in place. They covered strategic came into force 40 years ago, in 1970. This is a very nuclear weapons, intermediate-range weapons, chemical important year. If, however, the NPT conference is a weapons, biological weapons, non-proliferation and a failure and we do not get effective international measures comprehensive test ban. against Iran, we could be in for a very dangerous and difficult time and the number of nuclear weapons states On top of that, the cold war had been brought to an could significantly increase during the rest of this decade. end and countries such as South Africa and Libya had taken themselves deliberately out of the nuclear weapons business. The gloomy predictions that I well remember 3.1 pm and other hon. Members will recall were made in the 1950s and ’60s—that by the end of the 20th century Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): there would be perhaps 20-plus nuclear weapons states—had Having many more years ago than I like to recall been shown not to have been realised. co-authored a book at the Institute for Strategic Studies, Today, however, a few years later, those sunlit uplands, as it then was, on the international arms trade, and if ever they were so, are something of a mirage, and we having subsequently had an abiding and deep concern have every ground to be increasingly concerned about about non-proliferation issues, I am delighted that the the risks and dangers of weapons of mass destruction House has found time at the end of this Parliament to proliferation taking place. We must therefore heighten debate the Foreign Affairs Committee report on non- our efforts to reverse that deteriorating position. proliferation. As this is almost certainly the last report by this Committee that will be debated in the House, I Let me start with biological weapons. Those of us would like to place it on the record that the volume and who have the privilege of representing our constituents quantity of Foreign Affairs Committee reports that we would do well to remind people that this is not an have presented to the House during this Parliament owe arcane theoretical area. If we ever want a vivid reminder much to the chairmanship of the hon. Member for of the nature of the threat that we face, we have only to Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), who has taken us successfully look at the natural world. We have only to look at and effectively through a very considerable number of epidemics such as SARS—severe acute respiratory highly complex and important inquiries, of which this is syndrome—or swine flu to see the rapidity with which one. On behalf of the Committee, I express my gratitude viruses can be carried around the globe and infect to him. people at a very considerable rate, because of modern 333WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 334WH international travel and mass transport systems. I hope nuclear proliferation in that part of the world. North that that brings it home to people generally that this is Korea’s near neighbour Japan already has a highly an area of enormously high risk. developed ballistic missile capability, although it is for Against that, however, we still have no verification civilian purposes only. Unhappily, India and Pakistan and no enforcement provisions attached to the biological still rigidly adhere to the belief that they both need to weapons convention. In my view, the decision of the possess nuclear weapons, and there seems to be no previous, Bush junior Administration to torpedo the willingness on either side to retreat from that position. verification protocol to the biological weapons As we come further westwards, there is Iran. Whatever convention—a protocol that took some seven years to the talk from Iran, and whatever encouragement it gives negotiate—was a very irresponsible act. I understand us from time to time to believe that it is willing to that the Bush Administration felt strongly that they had expose itself to inspections and engage in dialogue, the the biological science commercial interests of the US to reality is that the remorseless, consistent trend is towards try to protect. I understand also that it is possible to a nuclear weapons capability. That poses the profound pick holes in the terms of that verification protocol. danger of nuclear proliferation in that already fraught However, given that this is such an important area and part of the world. given the total absence of any verification, it surely was The forthcoming successor to the START—strategic a subject on which half a loaf would have been infinitely arms reduction treaty—negotiations between Russia better than nothing at all, and nothing at all is what we and the US should have started by now. Indeed, when are left with today. the Government responded to our report, they were Given the extreme difficulty of detecting biological hopeful that the negotiations would begin before the weapons, coupled with the extreme lethality of some of START 1 treaty expired in December last year. We hope them, I have long taken the view that they represent that the negotiations will reach a conclusion, and it every bit as much of a threat to populations around the would be helpful if that was before the start of the world as nuclear weapons. I urge the Government to non-proliferation treaty review. We earnestly hope that continue to do all they can to produce enforcement and the review will achieve success and does not end in verification provisions for the biological weapons dismal failure, which would be a serious reverse. convention. I want now to concentrate on one significant group On chemical weapons, the Arms Control Association of nuclear weapons. Since our report was published in says that 16 countries still have an offensive chemical June last year, sub-strategic nuclear weapons have come weapons capability. The Government response clearly back into the area of possible significant negotiation. brought out the risks that we are still exposed to from Of all the nuclear arms control treaties that have been chemical weapons. It refers to seven states that remain entered into since nuclear weapons were developed, the outside the provisions of the chemical weapons convention most significant is the intermediate-range nuclear forces and that are assessed to be holders of chemical weapons: treaty of 1987. Israel, Syria, Egypt, North Korea, Angola, Somalia The treaty had three crucial points of significance. and Burma. It also quite rightly refers to the fact that a First, it eliminated a very sizeable class of nuclear considerable number of countries that have acceded to weapons—ground-based cruise missile-launched and the chemical weapons convention are still failing to ballistic missile-launched nuclear weapons. There was a comply with its provisions. huge range of these weapons, which covered ranges of The Government response brings out the fact that 5,500 km down to 500 km. there is a real threat to meeting the 2012 global deadline The second point of significance was that the elimination for the destruction of existing chemical weapons stockpiles. of that group of weapons was of enormous benefit to It rightly brings out the fact that the US has still us in Europe. If those weapons had ever been delivered, destroyed only 60 per cent. of its chemical weapons and a large number of them would, prospectively, have been that the Russians are lagging even further behind, having delivered on to European soil. Their elimination was destroyed only 35 per cent. of their stocks. On the therefore an important advance for Europe. destruction of Saddam Hussein’s stockpile of chemical weapons in Iraq, it makes the interesting point that a The third crucial point of significance—this relates deadline has not even been set. to something that I will say in a moment—is that the I therefore want to put one key question to the treaty demonstrated that it was possible to negotiate an Minister. On the vital issue of the challenge inspection arms control agreement with Russia, or the Soviet Union provisions under the chemical weapons convention, as it was then, that took arms levels down to zero on have the current American Administration rescinded, both sides. That was highly significant. That is why the or given an undertaking to rescind, the lamentable INF treaty is much the most significant of the nuclear presidential veto on inspections, imposed by the Bush arms control agreements that have been entered into so Administration? On the chemical weapons front, I hope far. that the Government continue to do their utmost to Originally, it was hoped that it might be possible to secure universal compliance with the chemical weapons go further than the parameters of the INF treaty; it was convention and full adherence to the provisions of that hoped that it might be possible to go all the way down important measure. from a range of 5,500 km to zero—in other words, to I turn now to the nuclear weapons aspect of weapons take in the sub-strategic category. In reality, however, of mass destruction. I have referred to what I believe to that proved to be a hurdle too far, and only intermediate- be the deteriorating position. In the far east, there has range weapons were included in the INF treaty. been no progress on the six-party talks with North However, three factors are now interacting to reopen Korea. As long as North Korea remains a nuclear the whole issue of sub-strategic nuclear weapons for weapons state, there is a real risk of a breakout of possible arms control measures. The first is the fact that 335WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 336WH

[Sir John Stanley] were possible to conclude a nuclear sub-strategic weapons elimination agreement that covered not merely ground- of the five European NATO members who have sub- launched and air-launched but sea-launched weapons strategic nuclear weapons on their soil, at least some—but on both sides, including the Russians, it would be definitely led by Germany—are becoming increasingly possible for the UK to make a contribution through the concerned about whether they want to continue to have sub-strategic element in Trident. that responsibility and position. That has now become Those four points make a profoundly important case a significant issue within NATO and in German politics. for the Government to examine the nuclear sub-strategic In addition, the United States nuclear posture review is area and consider whether it might be possible to eliminate now taking place. Finally, the NATO strategic concept that category of weapons. review is also taking place. For the first time in a long period, a degree of movement is possible in the area in Mr. Davey: The right hon. Gentleman is making an question, as those three factors come together. important point. Because he has done so much work on We are talking about a huge quantity of nuclear the matter, I want to ask him about the issue of sub-strategic weapons. On published figures from the Centre for nuclear weapons in submarines. An option that is discussed Nonproliferation Studies in the US, the Russians have for a much lower-intensity, less powerful replacement about 5,000 sub-strategic nuclear weapons and the for Trident that might be more appropriate in a post-cold American arsenal is 1,100, of which 200 are those war era is such things as nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, deployed in the five European NATO member countries from submarines. Those might give us a nuclear deterrent to which I have referred. I believe that there is a compelling more suited to the threats that might face us. I take it case for trying to carry forward the elimination of that that his proposal would not cover that type of nuclear group of weapons, on the same basis as that on which missile, which might be more appropriate to our needs we have already successfully negotiated under the INF in this century. treaty. My reasons for believing that, are, first, that unless Sir John Stanley: No, I was not referring to that. one believes that there is still a possible threat of wave Most of the cruise missile capability, as the hon. Gentleman after wave and division after division of Russian armour will know, is well above the 500 km range, and I am pouring westwards across the plains of Europe, those talking about something below that. Also, I certainly weapons are, in military and defence terms, obsolete. would not want our Trident strategic capability to go, They are cold war relics and one must question the unless that was in circumstances in which strategic sense of hanging on to such relics—weapons with no nuclear capabilities around the world were eliminated foreseeable use. as well. Secondly, from a European perspective, my case rests If anyone should be sceptical about whether an agreement on the fact that, to an even greater extent than could be negotiated that eliminated all sub-strategic intermediate-range nuclear weapons, tactical or sub-strategic nuclear weapons, I would point them to the INF treaty. nuclear weapons—I appreciate that there is some distinction, We have already negotiated such an agreement with the but we are talking about the panoply of sub-strategic Russians in relation to intermediate-range weapons. If nuclear weapons, with a range of 500 km or less—would it can be done once it can be done again. I hope that the all, in Russian hands, be used, if ever they were used, in Government pick up that crucial area and see whether the European theatre. They represent a threat to Europe, we can make progress towards the elimination of that but not to our NATO allies across the Atlantic, most entire class of nuclear weapons. particularly the United States. 3.28 pm There is a particular European interest in getting rid of that group of weapons. I was struck by the last Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): A day sentence in an article written last month by the Swedish when the papers contain so many well deserved tributes and Polish Foreign Ministers, Carl Bildt and Radek to Michael Foot is surely a good day to be discussing Sikorski, entitled “Next, the Tactical Nukes”: nuclear weapons, and if I may say so, Mr. Williams, it is “Such weapons are dangerous remnants of a dangerous past—and fine to have a Member who represents a Welsh constituency they should not be allowed to endanger our common future.” in the Chair, given the many great years of service that Michael Foot gave his constituents in Wales. I am That was well said. grateful for the opportunity to speak, and will be brief, The third case for getting rid of sub-strategic nuclear as I know that many hon. Members want to speak in weapons en bloc, if we can, is, as we mentioned in our the debate. report, the current dimension of risk of terrorist access I am old enough to remember the Cuban missile to weapons, whether conventional or weapons of mass crisis. I remember the real fear of the students, and destruction. The elimination of the possibility that terrorists particularly the lecturers, at the university of Edinburgh could get access to 6,000-plus sub-strategic nuclear institute of animal genetics, where I was studying. I weapons or components, or fissile material for those have lived most of my life during the cold war, and there weapons, such as warheads, must be extremely desirable is no doubt in my mind that the threat of nuclear war in counter-terrorist terms. was very serious for these islands, for Europe and My last point on the matter is not, I find, generally indeed for the whole world. It was John F. Kennedy known, although it is totally in the public arena: there is who said that if we did nothing, there would be a a UK dimension—a Trident dimension—because, as considerable number of nuclear states. He reckoned has been publicly disclosed in Ministry of Defence that it would be about 25 in the 1970s. That has documents, Trident, whose main capability is strategic, not happened, and I believe that it is largely because of also has a sub-strategic capability. So if, and only if, it the grand bargain, as the Government and the Select 337WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 338WH

Committee have called it—namely the non-proliferation that is so important for the future of this country and of treaty between the nuclear weapons states and the non- the world, but we have to bear in mind that we need to nuclear weapons states. move forward. We certainly do not want to encourage We have, of course, the official nuclear weapon states the idea that, if things do not work out in May and we and the unofficial nuclear weapon states, but I shall not do not make the progress that we all want, the NPT will elaborate on the implications of that, because of the be redundant. time. I am glad that reference has already been made to the state visit by the President of the Republic of South Africa, as this is a good time to acknowledge that South 3.33 pm Africa took a conscious decision to abandon its nuclear Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I am pleased weapons. that we are having this debate today. I shall be brief, The NPT is, as the Government have described it, a because we hope to vote in the main Chamber on the grand bargain. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, reform of Parliament at 4 o’clock. I think that reforming South (Mike Gapes) admirably made the point that the Parliament would be a really good idea, if it meant that agreement of the US to sell nuclear fission material to we could debate subjects such as this at greater length India was a major undermining of the treaty. India, of and in the main Chamber. I acknowledge that the Select course, is a non-NPT country. These are challenging Committee on Foreign Affairs has made enormous times. As I said, North Korea claims to have manufactured efforts to produce a substantial document. It is a credit nuclear weapons. Only on Monday, Yukiya Amano, the to the Committee and the Select Committee system. I director general of the International Atomic Energy pay tribute to the Committee for that, yet we are debating Agency, stated that his organisation could not confirm the report in Westminster Hall with only half a dozen that all nuclear material in Iran is being used for peaceful or so Members present. It therefore will not gain the activities because Iran had not provided the agency public attention that it deserves. We will have to return with the necessary co-operation. In addition, the threat to these matters in the next Parliament. The Select of terrorist efforts to acquire nuclear weapons and Committee system is crucial to democracy, as it holds materials is a continual concern nowadays. the Government to account. I thank the Committee for The Government’s document “The Road to 2010” its work. The report, as they say, is a rattling good read, makes a valuable contribution. I pay tribute to the if a rather long one. Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, whose report I Following the point made by my right hon. Friend referred to in our last debate on nuclear weapons the Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang), it would proliferation—an Adjournment debate on 9 July last be wrong of me to make any comments about nuclear year that I initiated. Since then, of course, the Government disarmament without mentioning the enormously have published not only “The Road to 2010” but their important work done by the late Michael Foot. I am response to the Select Committee’s report. The latter is very sad at his departure. I have fond memories of him. an excellent document, containing a good range of When I first came to the House, he was the leader of my material. In their response, the Government reiterate party. He was pleased that I had become an MP, because their support for a nuclear-free middle east. A few he was no longer the worst-dressed Member—someone moments ago, I referred to unofficial nuclear weapons else had taken over. I always found Michael’s contributions states, but it would help if the Minister were to set out amazingly passionate. I attended numerous rallies—CND the Government’s view of progress towards a nuclear-free and others—at which he spoke, and he never lost his middle east. Reference has already been made to Iran. passion, commitment, faith and hope. We should remember It is important that we see movement from the United Michael for all that he did. States toward ratification of the comprehensive test ban I will be extraordinarily brief. As national vice-chair treaty. The policy of President Obama, reiterated last of CND and chair of the CND parliamentary group, I month by his Vice-President, is that the US should want to make a few brief remarks in respect of nuclear ratify the treaty, but that may not be straightforward, disarmament. As every other Member has mentioned, because ratification would require 67 votes in the Senate. the nuclear non-proliferation treaty comes up for its There are many important issues to be covered in quinquennial review in May in New York. Unfortunately, May: disarmament, safeguards, consequences for treaty the start of the review coincides with the probable date violation and consequences for withdrawal from the of a general election and the certain date of the local treaty are among them. There is also a need for a fissile elections in this country, so no Minister will attend the material cut-off treaty. That is being considered by the start of the conference. However, as it runs for four conference on disarmament, the arena where the matter weeks, they may be able to attend the latter part of it. It is discussed, but I understand it has hit the doldrums. is a very great opportunity to make enormous progress, If I may take issue with just one word of the Committee’s and such opportunities do not come around very often. report it would be the use of the word “critical” in There have been previous reviews. The 2000 review, in relation to the forthcoming review conference. The word which the late Robin Cook had a big influence on is used by both the Government and the Select Committee. British participation, made a lot of progress, but the My fear is that it implies that if the review conference last one made no progress at all. One hopes that this does not succeed, that is the end of the treaty, but as has year’s one will. I attended the preparatory committee in been pointed out, the review conference five years ago New York last year, and was impressed by the level of was a total farce. We do not know what will happen in engagement by the US, Russia and China. Such engagement May, but to use the word “critical” is a little dangerous, has not been so obvious before. Clearly, a great deal of because when it comes to the spread of nuclear weapons progress could be made. Will the Minister say what to various states, there is no other game in town. We position the UK is hoping to take at the conference desperately hope that progress will be made because itself and what we intend to get out of it? 339WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 340WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] I welcome the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report, which is one of the best pieces of work that I have seen My next point is more difficult. The non-proliferation from that Committee. That is not to say that other treaty has been successful and has discouraged a lot of works have not been very good, but this report is proliferation. It has within it an inspection regime, extremely timely and authoritative. I also welcome the which is very important, and a requirement under article way in which the Government have responded to it even 6 for the confirmed holders of nuclear weapons—Britain, if I, like the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and France, China, the USA and Russia—to undertake Malling (Sir John Stanley), do not agree with everything steps for credible and meaningful disarmament. The that the Government have said. I praise the Government, late Fred Mulley, who was a British Minister in 1968, from the Prime Minister down, for publishing “The made great play of the fact that he and the Government Road to 2010” and for being very proactive in the were committed to article 6. I hope that we will reiterate disarmament debate; they deserve some credit for that. that commitment and, at the very least, suspend a There is a large degree of cross-party agreement on decision on the replacement of Trident. I would prefer this issue. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks that Government went much further and said that they (Mr. Hague) has made one or two speeches, which I simply will not replace Trident, as their contribution to have taken the trouble to read—[Interruption.] nuclear non-proliferation. Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Order. There is a Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): That is an Division in the House. I understand that it is the first of absolute starting point of any new Government. As several, although how many is unclear at present. I such, should it not be something that we discuss during therefore propose that we suspend for 15 minutes. I ask the general election? right hon. and hon. Members to return immediately after this Division, at which time it might be clearer Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. It is a starting point and how many there will be and we can decide how to something I shall be discussing in the general election proceed. when I put my case to the people of my constituency, as all other Members will do. I think that there is a moral, 3.41 pm economic, diplomatic and political case for not replacing Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Trident. My last point is that the NPT does not include India, 3.55 pm Pakistan, North Korea and Israel. India and Pakistan On resuming— need to be engaged as never before in peace talks, negotiations and disarmament, because of the danger Hywel Williams (in the Chair): I understand that of the spread of the Afghanistan war into Pakistan and there is to be a number of Divisions, so I propose that the clear threat to peace in that region. North Korea is we suspend the sitting until 10 minutes after the last part of the six-party talks, and one hopes that those vote in the House. I appeal to right hon. and hon. talks will bring it back into the NPT fold. Members to come back at that point. Finally, I come to a middle east nuclear-free zone. I Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. know that the Government are formally committed to a nuclear-free zone in the middle east. The Mediterranean 4.31 pm declaration included some statements about weapons of On resuming— mass destruction in that region to which Israel signed Mr. Davey: It is good to be back, Mr. Williams. up. Israel is not a party to the NPT or any other disarmament convention. I do not think that Iran should Before the Divisions, I was saying that there is a large have nuclear weapons. I do not like its human rights degree of cross-party consensus as we approach the record. There should be as much engagement as possible nuclear non-proliferation treaty review conference in with the country to prevent the forces that want to May. There are one or two differences between my party develop nuclear power and nuclear weapons from gaining and both the Tories and Labour on Trident, and I will greater control. I hope that we can ensure some sense in mention them at the end of my contribution, but first I that by putting all possible pressure on Israel to join in shall focus on the issues on which the parties agree. some kind of disarmament process. It does not matter I want to press the Minister about how the Government what badge is applied—we can call it a nuclear weapons intend to handle the fact that the conference will start convention—but a process that involves every country just at the culmination of the British general election that has nuclear weapons has to be the way forward. campaign. Is it intended to keep the Opposition parties informed—what does he envisage? Given that it is a There is no moral case for nuclear weapons. They are critical conference, we want to ensure that the British incredibly dangerous. People are still dying in Japan voice is heard loud and clear, so it would be helpful if he from the only time that nuclear weapons were used in gave us some assurance on that point. My noble Friend anger, more than 60 years ago. Do we want that legacy Baroness Williams of Crosby has been very much involved for our grandchildren as well? in these matters—indeed, she has even advised the Prime Minister on them—and I am sure that she could 3.40 pm be one avenue of communication on our side, if that Mr.EdwardDavey(Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I would be helpful. join in the tributes to the late Michael Foot. He was a As we approach the eighth review conference in New fantastic campaigner for peace and nuclear disarmament York, there is a far more positive mood, as has been and it is right that hon. Members should mention him mentioned by other speakers in the debate. Part of that at the start of their remarks. is the timing in relation to what is going on in the rest of 341WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 342WH the world and international affairs. The election of Trident, but a replacement that is not like for like. It Obama has made a very big difference, and talks have needs a lot of study in legal and military terms, but our taken place between the US and Russia. Before all those initial work suggests that it is possible. events, however, some of the arguments made on the Apart from that important strategic disagreement Republican side of American thought—such as Kissinger, about our nuclear weapons and approach to the conference, Shultz, Perry and Nunn in their famous letter to The I believe that the Government deserve credit, particularly Wall Street Journal in January 2007—were looking for the money that they have put into verification ahead to the possibility of a world without nuclear technologies. We know that they have worked with weapons. That debate has really transformed the way Norway and brought the non-governmental organisation that a lot of people think about the issue, and we should VERTIC into that work, which is incredibly significant. give credit to those individuals for their analysis of the If they continue to pursue that work, they will have our intellectual underpinnings of the concept of a nuclear support. deterrent. They have shown that the ideas that characterised the nuclear debate in the cold war era have less application in the 21st century, when there are failed states, rogue 4.38 pm states and potential threats from terrorists using nuclear materials. That analysis has helped to underpin the shift Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): I thank the in thinking on nuclear weapons. Select Committee and congratulate it on a first-class Of course, one can put the negative side of the report. The report and the Government response—which, argument. In Iran and North Korea, we see serious as my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and threats to the non-proliferation regime. I wanted to Malling (Sir John Stanley) said, is rather more press the Minister on how the British Government will comprehensive than some departmental responses to approach the problem posed by so-called break-out Select Committee reports—provide what amounts to a states, whereby states such as Iran can be within the formidable work of reference for anyone interested in nuclear non-proliferation treaty regime, even though the challenges of the proliferation of nuclear, chemical they may be in breach of some of the rules and there and biological weapons and how British policy in particular may be proposals for sanctions against them, and so on. has evolved. There is a danger that those states are getting right to Both the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), the wire and that they then will break out of the the Chairman of the Committee, and my right hon. non-proliferation regime when they have got very close Friend addressed their remarks with the seriousness to becoming a nuclear state, having kept within the and depth of information that the subject deserves. I strict rules up to that very moment. The Chairman of was particularly interested by what my right hon. Friend the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Ilford, said about the need for attention to be paid to questions South (Mike Gapes), touched on that question: are the of both intermediate and tactical nuclear weapons. I Government willing to allow legal changes to be made agree that we must not forget those issues in our initial to the treaty to create sanctions for countries that do so? concentration on the talks between the United States Sanctions are automatic and would not require a UN and Russia about strategic weapons. Security Council debate at what might be a fraught, I have heard Senator Nunn say publicly that many tense moment. They are a signal in advance about what senior military officers in the United States army have will happen and thus act as a deterrent. grave doubts about the efficacy of tactical nuclear weapons. I agree with much that other speakers said, particularly His argument is that the generals believe that such about the importance of the US Congress ratifying the weapons are never likely to be used and therefore soak comprehensive test ban treaty. That is probably the up a huge amount of resources, both in terms of expenditure biggest step that the Americans could take. In relation and the men needed to guard the weapons on the to the British Government, however, I want to put on battlefield, that could better be employed elsewhere in record some Liberal Democrat concerns that hark back the United States defence budget. to the debate in the House a year or two ago on the I see challenges arising in the attitude of Russia. I renewal of Trident. understand that Russia is seriously concerned about the We still believe that that decision was taken far too inferiority of its conventional forces. It faces a demographic soon. Much of the evidence that we have heard from crisis, with the numbers of young men of military age experts in the industry and the military indicates that it falling in future decades. There must be a risk that did not need to be taken at the time. The Government Russian Governments will rely on tactical nuclear weapons could have considered anything from a strategy of life to counter a balance of forces that tilts against their extension to changing the continuous at-sea patrols to interests. My right hon. Friend is correct that we must lengthen the life of submarines. A number of strategies press forward with the agenda that he described, despite could have been adopted to avoid the need for that the difficulties. decision. The reason why we were so concerned about As several speakers have said, the review of the the decision is that the conference was upon us. Britain’s non-proliferation treaty, which is due to commence in having made that decision seems to go against the spirit May, is of great importance. My party has long taken of the times and the leadership that we must show the view that it is vital to our national interest that the before the conference. NPT review should succeed. The hon. Member for We would like the Government to discuss the matter Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) was kind enough in future, depending on what happens at the conference. to draw attention to the speeches of my right hon. The Liberal Democrats are seriously considering and Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) being advised on the idea that our own deterrent, if we that suggested a number of specific measures that the should need one, should not be a cold war relic such as United Kingdom should advocate in the conference. 343WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 344WH

[Mr. David Lidington] Japan sees itself as the victim of nuclear weapons, because of the two bombs in 1945, and it, similarly, The treaty rests on three pillars, each of which needs wants to see the NPT review succeed. Sometimes it will to be strengthened. First, there should be firm controls be easier for an Asian, African or Latin American against proliferation and a bar on more countries becoming power to talk to other emerging and developing countries nuclear weapons states. Secondly, civil nuclear technology around the world than it will be for us or the United should be shared with countries that need it for their States alone to persuade such nations to take the course domestic energy programmes. Thirdly, as representatives that we hope they will follow. of a number of non-nuclear states have told me, nuclear I hope that the Minister will say something about the weapons states should deliver on their commitment Government’s objectives on persuading the nuclear weapons under article 6 to work towards multilateral disarmament. states not currently within the ambit of the non-proliferation The first step towards the last objective has to be the treaty—India, Pakistan and Israel—to accept some kind achievement of a strategic arms reduction treaty 2, or of non-proliferation regime. In terms of building START 2, between Russia and the United States of international confidence and persuading other countries America. I confess to some disappointment that the not to go down the nuclear weapons route, that seems timetable on that has slipped. I will be interested to hear important. what the Minister can say about the Government’s I have two final questions to ask the Minister. The assessment of the prospects for those negotiations. I first is about the future of nuclear doctrines within hope that the Obama Administration can persuade the NATO, a point that my right hon. Friend the Member United States Senate to ratify the comprehensive test for Tonbridge and Malling mentioned. He was right to ban treaty in the not-too-distant future. I hope that the say that five countries, led by Germany, have indicated British Government say clearly to our friends in Washington that they would like NATO to become much less reliant that the United Kingdom favours their ratification of on nuclear weapons as a central part of its military the CTBT, because there is sometimes misunderstanding strategy. France, of course, takes a very different view on Capitol hill about what America’s allies want. on that issue. I would be grateful to hear how the British The spread of civil nuclear technology is essential if Government are approaching that debate within NATO. we are to continue to persuade non-weapons states to Finally, I hope that the Minister will say a few words maintain that status. There is a fear among some that about Iran. When I met the new director general of the the review of the treaty might lead to caution in the IAEA last week, he impressed me with the rigour of his developed world in sharing civil nuclear technology analysis and his clear view that the evidence suggested with the emerging economies and developing countries that Iran was indeed moving towards the development that want to develop civil nuclear programmes. The of a weapons capability. The latest IAEA report is quid pro quo is that, obviously, we need a regime of critical of Tehran’s continuing refusal to co-operate checks and controls to ensure that such technology can with the international inspectors. be shared, while reducing to a minimum the risk that What approach are the Government now taking? Do technology and nuclear material could be used to provide Ministers believe that it will be possible to accelerate the a weapons capability to those countries that do not now long drawn out talks on a further package of targeted possess one. sanctions? Are we asking countries that have a relationship There are three elements to such a deal. First, we with Iran, such as Turkey, India and Brazil, to intervene need stronger powers for the International Atomic Energy diplomatically and make clear to Tehran the gravity Agency, such as making the additional protocol mandatory. with which its drive towards nuclear weapons capability Secondly, we need to have effective sanctions against is seen around the world? countries that sign up to the non-proliferation treaty but then flout the rules to which they have agreed to subscribe. For example, there might be provision for a 4.50 pm quick reference direct to the United Nations Security The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Council once the IAEA has reported a serious breach Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I begin by paying tribute to the of its controls. Foreign Affairs Committee for the quality of its report. Thirdly, we need to find ways in which to extend Members have been good enough to recognise that the international control and supervision over the nuclear Government took the report very seriously and ensured fuel cycle, particularly over enrichment and the distribution that our response was of a substantive and serious of enriched materials. As hon. Members will know, nature. There is much common ground between the many different proposals have come from different Government and the Committee on the analysis of the politicians in this country about how that might be current situation and on considerations on the future. achieved. That has to be a key element of any successful I share in the comments made by the right hon. review of the NPT. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) I hope the Minister will say a few words about the about how my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, diplomacy that the Government are using in the approach South (Mike Gapes) has chaired the Committee during to May, because the more I consider the issue, the more this Session of Parliament. The Committee has further it seems essential that we work not just with the other strengthened its reputation as a credible and serious nuclear weapons states, but with emerging powers around scrutineer of the Government and a body that makes the world that take a key interest in the matter. When I serious contributions to broader foreign policy debates. saw a South African delegation earlier today, they impressed That is all to the good, particularly considering the on me that because South Africa has voluntarily given votes in the House a few minutes ago, as the selection of up its nuclear weapons capability, they have a particular Chairmen might take place on a very different basis in interest in the subject. future. 345WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 346WH

My hon. Friend has earned tremendous support beyond Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the Minister for what he has that of Government or party managers in relation to just said. He knows that I agree with him on the when choices need to be made in future, although it is question of human rights in Iran, but can he categorise not for the Government to decide who ought to chair in which respects, in the Government’s view, Iran is in Select Committees, or for the Whips—this is a unique breach of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and, to and historic moment. save my trying to intervene on him again, will he also I join my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, give us some indication—he has given indications in East (Dr. Strang), my hon. Friend the Member for previous debates—of what discussion is taking place Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) and others who remarked with Israel concerning its nuclear weapons capacity? on how poignant it is to have such a debate the day after What hopes are there for its involvement in some form the passing of Michael Foot, who was such a great and of disarmament discussions in the future to create what powerful advocate for nuclear disarmament and peace we all want, which is a nuclear-free middle east? around the world. It is also appropriate because tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of the NPT coming into force. Mr. Ivan Lewis: On the first question, the International We could not have had the debate at a more poignant Atomic Energy Agency has made it clear that the moment. Iranians are in breach of the rules in several ways and As hon. Members have said, this year will be incredibly the treaty that they signed up to. I can write to my hon. significant for such matters: there will be a nuclear Friend with those details. There are questions about security summit in Washington in April, the NPT review their willingness to allow facilities to be inspected properly. conference in May and the first preparatory committee For a long time, the Iranians denied that the Qom for the arms trade treaty in the summer. This is the year nuclear facility was being used in pursuit of the development when the world can come together and demonstrate its of nuclear weapons, but then, as a result of significant seriousness on creating a nuclear-free world. We must international pressure, were forced to admit that they not raise expectations too greatly and must be realistic had been misleading the international community for as well as ambitious, but 2010 could certainly be seen some time, which further eroded confidence and trust in historically as the moment when the international the good will of the regime. community decided to go firmly down the disarmament On the representations that are made, the British route. position is clear. In every UN resolution on Iran’s Despite the positives, as right hon. and hon. Members nuclear weapons programme that we have supported, have said, some states continue to play outside the rules we have ensured that we are equally calling for a nuclear-free of the international community. The hon. Member for middle east. In our bilateral engagement with the state Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) raised the question of Iran of Israel, we constantly ask it to indicate at least a and I want to respond directly to that point. The willingness to consider being part of the NPT. international community has made it clear that we want I shall answer my hon. Friend directly: the reality is diplomatic and political engagement with Iran to resolve that Israel’s willingness to engage is linked to a paradigm the nuclear file question. The President of America has that involves a satisfactory resolution of the two-state made that clear, as many world leaders and international issue, so that we have the creation of a viable contiguous institutions have done consistently. As we meet here Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel. In response, today, that door remains open. As we meet here today, as he will be aware, the Arab League has offered that door remains open. normalisation for the first time in its relationship with There is a desire to resolve the matter in a diplomatic the state of Israel. That is the paradigm that would and political way. However, Iran’s developing nuclear enable us to believe that there were real prospects of weapons has to be non-negotiable in terms of the Israel agreeing to join the process. stability of the international community and the middle That aspect of the middle east peace process is not east, but, paradoxically, also because of the arms race often spoken about in this House. There seems to be a that would be triggered as a consequence of its developing tendency to want constantly to focus on the negatives. nuclear weapons. Other middle eastern countries would We are approaching a period—in a matter of weeks, feel that they had no alternative. rather than months—where we are optimistic that proximity Therefore, having made diplomatic and political overtures talks can begin between the Israelis and the Palestinians to Tehran, and having had a negative response and a under the auspices of George Mitchell, possibly dealing complete lack of co-operation with the UN body charged with borders first, then other final-status issues, such as with policing such matters, we have no choice but to say Jerusalem, refugees and normalisation, that would be to Iran that we are serious. If Iran still refuses to come part of any settlement. to the table, the next step in demonstrating our seriousness We strongly advocate and champion a nuclear-free would be to introduce tough economic sanctions that middle east, but we still do not think that we should particularly focused on the people in the Iranian regime allow ourselves to be diverted from saying to Iran that who make decisions. every time we seek to engage with it on its responsibilities It is important that any sanctions that are adopted under NPT, all it says in response is, “What about keep the door open to political and diplomatic progress Israel?” That does not deal with the fact that it is a and to a resolution, but also engender as much unity in signatory to the NPT and agreed to play by the rules of the international community as possible. That is why the international community, and, at every juncture, it the preparatory work that we are doing to try to ensure has refused to play by those rules thus far. that we have maximum unity—so that Iran cannot My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North is say that there are serious splits in the mainstream right to make his point, but I hope that he will also international community—is crucial in moving towards consider condemning the human rights record of Iran, the sanctions stage. which, as Amnesty International has said, is the worst it 347WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 348WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] as we can, taking into account the fact that it will start when the election campaign may be still under way—I has been in 20 years. If hon. and right hon. Members am being very careful. As my hon. Friend the Member such as my hon. Friend say in the House to Iran that it for Islington, North said, the conference will continue is not acceptable for it to develop nuclear weapons, that considerably beyond what may be the date of an election. will be a powerful contribution to the debate, because We should seek to achieve collective responsibility so as that regime cannot condemn my hon. Friend in any way to understand the fact that high-level representation, if for colluding with some of the policies that he finds it feasible at a political level, is incredibly important in difficult to associate with. promoting Britain’s national interest. In response to the point made by the hon. Member Jeremy Corbyn: I have no problem whatever answering for Aylesbury, it is important that we commit to that question, because I have never supported Iran communicating with other political parties if the conference developing nuclear weapons. I do not support anyone takes place at a politically sensitive time. We are clear developing nuclear weapons; I have a fundamental moral about our lobbying strategy and how people can have objection to them. I have made it clear to Iranians an input, and we are open about how we intend to whom I have met that, whatever the issues are, I cannot approach the conference. The dialogue will be very under any circumstances support the development of important. nuclear weapons. Mr. Lidington: Let me say very simply that the Opposition Mr. Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for reiterating his share the Minister’s belief that it is important that the position, which is well known, but he mentioned Iran’s United Kingdom should be represented at the conference human rights record earlier. It is important that we send at as high a level as practicable. I welcome his comments clear messages about its nuclear weapons programme about consultation with other political parties. and try to do that in a unified way, whatever other Mr. Lewis: I turn to some of the contributions from differences we may legitimately have. hon. Members; I want to do them justice. I realise that I Moving on from Iran, we continue to be concerned have probably had more time than my Front-Bench about North Korea. In that context, it is important that colleagues, but I hope that they understand that I have a the sanctions that are already in place, which were lot of ground to cover. agreed in New York, are rigorously enforced, while we My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South continue to use the influence that we have over North commented on the United States-India nuclear deal. It Korea to ask it to re-engage with the international is undoubtedly controversial, and there is no consensus community through the six-party talks framework. It is in the international community’s response. We have crucial that this year, alongside our ambitions for NPT, seriously considered the pros and cons, and have concluded we are seen to be dealing robustly and credibly with the that the international non-proliferation regime will be real threat posed by Iran and North Korea. strengthened by moving India closer to the mainstream. On the review conference and our aspirations for it, India subsequently concluded an additional protocol we strongly believe that the best way forward overall is with the IAEA. There was concern that, although that to strengthen the implementation of the NPT. We are was part of the deal, India would not honour it, but it working closely with our P5 partners to develop a has done so. On balance, we believe that bringing India constructive, forward-leaning approach at the review closer to the mainstream is in the overall interests of conference in May to provide the moral and political our shared objectives; there is no evidence that it has leadership that the Prime Minister has called for on had a negative effect. The 2009 NPT preparatory committee, non-proliferation and on disarmament. I believe that all for example, is the first for 15 years to agree an agenda Members of Parliament share those aspirations. for the review conference. On balance, we still believe The conference presents a key opportunity to reaffirm that it was right to support that agreement. our collective commitment to the treaty and its core It is clear from the points made by the right hon. principles, and to agree concrete, realistic, balanced Member for Tonbridge and Malling that he is one the action to strengthen the NPT’s implementation across most well informed Members in the House on these its three pillars, as the hon. Member for Aylesbury said: important issues. He is aware that the United Kingdom specifically, a strengthened non-proliferation regime to does not possess any so-called tactical or sub-strategic improve safeguards, verification and compliance; a clear nuclear weapons. Only nuclear weapons can provide a and credible forward plan on nuclear disarmament and deterrent against a nuclear threat, so they are on a the promotion of peaceful uses of nuclear energy, without different scale from any other form of deterrence. Their compromising safety, security or non-proliferation; and use could only be deemed “game changing” or strategic. achieving consensus on ensuring nuclear security without In relation to the right hon. Gentleman’s comments reopening the treaty. about the intermediate-range nuclear forces treaty and This is an ambitious agenda. We do not underestimate Russia’s proposal to multilateralise, in principle we would the considerable challenges that we face. We share a have no difficulties with that proposal. Of course, we common interest and a common responsibility. We must would have to consider any further details emanating not allow any differences to undermine the consensus from Russia, but it needs to be clear that for that to be that has underpinned the success of the NPT for the successful, considerable buy-in would be necessary from past 40 years. the international community. I want to make an important specific point that was The right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members also raised by several hon. Members. The conference referred to NATO. It is right at this juncture to have a will take place at a difficult time in our political cycle. serious debate on NATO’s nuclear weapons based in We must seek to achieve as high a level of representation Europe, and that tallies with our ultimate aspirations, 349WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 350WH but we must be honest and say that we do not expect to replace like with like.” The position is unclear. Are any unilateral decisions to be taken. Any decision must the Lib Dems conducting a fundamental review, with be taken following consultation with our NATO allies. all options remaining open, or have they made a definitive Not all member states agree with Germany that getting decision that they will not replace like with like? rid of NATO’s nuclear forces would be a good thing at this time. That, of course, is particularly the case in Mr. Davey: I am happy to help the Minister. I hope countries that feel under threat. Although we agree that that he will then answer the questions that I raised NATO should be having this debate now, it is important about Trident. We do not believe that there is a case for that we handle things sensitively. renewing Trident on a like-for-like basis. I hope that The right hon. Gentleman also raised the question of that is clear enough for him. biological and chemical weapons, and I shall briefly address that point. Biological and toxin weapons convention Mr. Lewis: The problem is that we are not clear about verification is a top priority for us, but there is no clear the Liberal Democrat position on the replacement of movement at this stage from the United States Trident because the party has not said that it will not Administration. We accept that they are focused on the replace Trident. It has tried to hint to a particular START talks and the nuclear posture review, but we section of the electorate that it is less comfortable with continue to press them on the convention. the concept of Trident, but it has not said that it will not We have not yet had any indication from the new replace Trident. Its policy will have to become clearer as Administration about whether they intend to rescind we get nearer to an election. the presidential veto over challenge inspections, and Let me deal with the important point made by the that is a little more depressing. However, in our bilateral hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton about the discussions we continue to urge them to do so. future approach to sanctions in respect of those countries that are not complying with their obligations under the Sir John Stanley: On a point of fact, I believe that I NPT. We agree that that is a very important priority for am correct and that the Minister may wish to review the review process. The Prime Minister made it clear in what he has said. There is a sub-strategic nuclear role his speech at Lancaster house last March that we need for Trident. The Government’s policy, given in the 1998 to strengthen the regime to deter non-compliance by strategic defence review, is that ensuring certainty of detection and, where non-compliance “The credibility of deterrence also depends on retaining an has occurred, by ensuring certainty of serious consequences. option for a limited strike that would not automatically lead to a Sanctions are one option, as is suspending co-operation full scale nuclear exchange. Unlike Polaris and Chevaline, Trident with the IAEA, for example. We are looking to the must also be capable of performing this ‘sub-strategic’ role.” review conference for a mandate to address those concerns. The hon. Gentleman is right: that will be a significant Mr. Lewis: The right hon. Gentleman raises a point part of what Britain will be seeking to achieve as one of that is difficult to argue with. It all depends on one’s the key outcomes of the review. definition of “sub-strategic role”, but I do not think The year 2010 will be crucial. There is significant that we could disagree on how he defined it in his consensus in the British Parliament, I believe, about contribution. The difficulty is in the definition. However, what is the morally and politically appropriate position I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said about for this country to adopt in the context of the negotiations. the potential role of Trident. That takes me on to It is important that we should be seen to provide strong Trident itself. leadership. It is equally important that, at a time when It will be useful quickly to update the House on the we have hope that the journey towards a nuclear weapons- initial gate process; I think that all Members will be free world can gather momentum, we should not allow interested in that. The House will be aware that we had Iran and North Korea to be developing a nuclear weapons originally planned to consider the concept phase of the capacity or to be expanding their ambitions further. future deterrent submarine programme in the autumn I hope that we can secure and maintain the maximum of 2009. However, further time was necessary to ensure unity of purpose and consensus and that during the that decisions on submarine propulsion and design period of the conference, despite the political difficulties options were based on robust information. New technical that we may have in this country, we seek an all-party options are being considered, and a few more months consensus and maximum effectiveness in the British are needed to evaluate them fully before taking a decision. input. In the 2006 White Paper, we announced our intention to introduce a new class of submarine from the mid-2020s. Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Government publish in advance That timetable is still on track, despite the delays. of the conference any particular strategic document, However, it does not mean that we have taken an and will they use the conference to seek parallel meetings irreversible decision that commits us irrevocably to with non-NPT states, all of which are normally there at possess nuclear weapons for the next 40 to 50 years. It is NPT review conferences? I shall be at the latter part of important to make that point. the conference, and I am happy to be a consensus figure I turn to a point made by the hon. Member for in favour of disarmament, if that helps the Minister. Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). He hints that he does not agree with our position, but I am still unclear Mr. Lewis: That may be an offer that I can refuse; I about his party’s position. On some occasions, the Lib am not sure. I am not clear whether we have a commitment Dems say, “We are conducting a fundamental review to publish our negotiating position formally, but I am and will inform the public when we have reached a happy to ensure that there is engagement with right conclusion about our policy.”On other days, the party’s hon. and hon. Members with an interest in these issues. Front-Bench spokespersons say, “We have decided not In the lead-up to the conference, we can ensure that as 351WH Global Security (Non-Proliferation)4 MARCH 2010 Global Security (Non-Proliferation) 352WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] I have two other points. The first is the problem of the transition between this Parliament and the next. In much information as is available gets to those right hon. previous international conferences, from time to time and hon. Members, so that they are clear about the Members or former Members of both Houses have broad approach that we intend to take. played a role in parliamentary delegations, assisting as As for meetings with other states, which my hon. part of a UK delegation to disarmament negotiations. Friend asked about, I should say that we meet those It may not be impossible for some former Members of states on a bilateral basis and one of the issues that we this House or the other place to assist during the raise with them consistently is the NPT review process transition period, and I hope that that can be borne in and what their attitude to that may be. With that, I mind. conclude my contribution. Finally, I place on the record my great sadness at the death of Michael Foot. I was in Brussels last Monday 5.19 pm and Tuesday with the Foreign Affairs Committee at the UKRep offices, and on Monday evening I went to the Mike Gapes: With the leave of the House, I thank the Grand Place in Brussels. When I heard of Michael Minister for his detailed response and all right hon. Foot’s death yesterday, I looked at a photograph on the and hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. wall of my office. It is a picture of Michael Foot and me I thank the Minister for his kind remarks about me. I in the Grand Place in 1982. We had been attending a would not have been able to play the role that I have in meeting of the Socialist parties from NATO countries the Committee over the past five years without the that were campaigning against cruise, Pershing and co-operation and dedication of a number of colleagues, SS20 missiles. This is an apposite moment to draw not least the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and attention to that, and to hope that the non-proliferation Malling (Sir John Stanley) and the staff of the Committee, review conference goes some way further towards the who also need to be praised for their work. I also place goal that Michael Foot had and his aspiration for a on the record my appreciation of those officials from world without nuclear weapons. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with whom the Committee deals. They have been consistently helpful Question put and agreed to. in response to the requests for information that we regularly make and in the correspondence and deadlines 5.22 pm that we give them. Sitting adjourned. 115WS Written Ministerial Statements4 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 116WS

which are currently eligible to serve a blight notice will Written Ministerial continue to be able to do so when the new rating lists come into effect. Statements The same threshold also applies for businesses claiming compensation for loss of value under part 1 of the Land Compensation Act 1973 when their premises are affected Thursday 4 March 2010 by physical factors such as noise, vibration, fumes and artificial lighting from new public works such as highways and aerodromes. TREASURY This threshold also applies under the 1973 Act to enable proprietors aged at least 60 to claim disturbance compensation on the basis of the total extinguishment Equitable Life of their business when they are subject to a compulsory purchase order. This allows claimants of that age to retire if they do not want to re-establish their business The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): elsewhere. I can today provide an update to the House on Sir John The Town and Country Planning (Blight Provisions) Chadwick’s work in advising the Government on the (England) Order 2010 (SI No: 2010/498), which is the establishment of an ex gratia payment scheme for Equitable Statutory Instrument necessary to achieve the change Life policyholders. to the rateable value limit, will be laid today in order for Sir John published his second interim report on it to come into force on 1 April. 16 December 2009. He has since received a range of representations on the questions raised, and is today publishing his third and final interim report, which sets out: HEALTH Sir John’s provisional view on which life companies are suitable as a basis for a comparator in the assessment of relative loss resulting from accepted maladministration. His provisional views as to what factors the Government may GP Practices (Registration) wish to take into account when considering those policyholders who have experienced disproportionate impact from the accepted maladministration; and The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): In A comprehensive annex detailing initial quantitative advice a great NHS, everybody should be able to choose the from Sir John’s actuarial advisers, Towers Watson. best and most convenient service for themselves and Sir John would welcome final representations and their families. We believe people should have the freedom comments from all parties on the issues raised in his to choose their own GP practice, and not be faced by latest report by 9 April 2010. artificial restrictions, like practice boundaries, that limit choice. The Government are committed to establishing a fair payment scheme as quickly as possible. Sir John expects Our overriding objective is to deliver the best possible to submit his final report in May 2010, and the Government service to patients. People want healthcare that is more have undertaken to provide a response, setting out personalised and convenient, so primary care services details of a payment scheme, within 14 days of its must respond to provide this. publication. The Department is commencing today a national consultation on the proposals to enable people to register with a GP practice of their choice. The proposals have been developed following a period of initial engagement COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT with stakeholders from the NHS, professional groups, and patient representatives. Town and Country Planning Most people are likely to want to continue to be registered with a local GP practice that can offer home visits when necessary and is well placed to co-ordinate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for care with other local agencies. The proposals in the Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): consultation document are designed to build on these One of the consequences of the 2010 non-domestic rate existing strengths of general practice and indeed give revaluation, which comes into effect on 1 April, is that people a greater choice of local GP practices. certain thresholds linked to rateable value limits also In a smaller number of cases, some people may want have to be raised so that small businesses are not to choose a GP practice further away from home. for disadvantaged. instance near their workplace, that enables them to have I am therefore announcing today that we intend to more convenient access to primary care and to have raise the annual rateable value limit below which the greater continuity of care than they have at present. The owners of small businesses can serve blight notices and options in the consultation look in particular at the claim other types of compulsory purchase compensation. issues involved in arranging home visits, where needed, The limit was previously raised to £29,200 at the time of for people in this group, together with issues around the 2005 revaluation, and it will now be raised to access to urgent care, co-ordination of community-based £34,800 from 1 April 2010. This reflects the changes in services, access to hospital and specialist treatment and rateable values between 2005 and 2010, so that businesses patient records. 117WS Written Ministerial Statements4 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 118WS

The options identified in relation to home visiting to gain the Attorney-General’s consent (which is normally arrangements are: required for offences of this kind to be prosecuted), or GP practices to continue to have responsibility for home to secure a conviction by a jury. visiting for local patients. PCTs will make arrangements to The problem is not hypothetical, as applications for provide home visits, where necessary, for patients who register an arrest warrant have been made, on at least two further away from home; occasions successfully; and there is reason to believe maintain the requirement for GP practices to provide or secure that the risk of arrest may discourage prominent people, home visits for all patients on their list, regardless of where they live; with whom HM Government would wish to engage, from visiting this country. allow patients to register with two separate GP practices; or remove all home visiting obligations from GP practices and The problem arises as a result of four factors: make PCTs responsible for establishing home visiting arrangements. (1) The jurisdiction of the courts in England and Wales is The consultation document recommends the first of basically territorial—with some exceptions they try only offences these options. It would allow people to register with any committed here. However, war crimes under the Geneva Conventions Act 1957, and a small number of other grave GP practice in England with an open list. There would offences, are subject to “universal jurisdiction” which enables be a simple set of principles to distinguish between the them to be prosecuted here even though they were committed majority of patients who are registering locally (where outside the United Kingdom by someone who is not a British the local GP practice would retain the duty to provide national. or secure home visits where necessary) and a small (2) It is open to any private individual to initiate criminal number of patients who are registering further away proceedings, including for universal jurisdiction offences, by from home (for whom other home visiting arrangements applying to a magistrate for a summons or an arrest warrant. would be needed). (3) The evidence required for the issue of a summons or A copy of the consultation document has been placed warrant is far less onerous than that applied by the Crown in the Library and copies are available for hon. Members Prosecution Service (CPS) in determining whether a prosecution from the Vote Office. should go ahead. The court’s duty is to ascertain that it has jurisdiction; it then looks to see if there is some prima facie information that an offence known to the law has been committed by the person named. The court does not need to decide that HOME DEPARTMENT there is a realistic prospect of conviction. (4) For almost all universal jurisdiction offences there is a Immigration and Asylum (War Crimes) safeguard in that the consent of the Attorney-General is required in order for a prosecution to go ahead. But while a summons will not be issued until the necessary consent has The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil been given for the prosecution to proceed, absence of consent Woolas): The Race Relations (Immigration and Asylum) does not prevent the issue of an arrest warrant. (War Crimes etc.) Authorisation 2007 enables the Secretary The facility for seeking an arrest warrant in these of State to subject certain applications to more rigorous circumstances without the prior consent of the prosecutor scrutiny than he subjects like applications from persons is unusual. It is paralleled in only a very few other of other nationalities to, for the purposes of determining jurisdictions of which we are aware. In most jurisdictions whether the applicant has committed, or been complicit prosecutorial consent is required. in the commission of, or otherwise been associated with The Government have considered this matter very the commission of war crimes, crimes against humanity carefully. They have concluded that there is a case for or genocide. restricting to the CPS the right to prosecute this narrow The condition for subjecting these applications to range of universal jurisdiction offences, in circumstances more rigorous scrutiny is that the applicant is a national where the offence is alleged to have been committed of a state specified on a list approved personally by the outside the United Kingdom by a person who is not a Minister for the purpose of the authorisation. British national. The effect of this change—which would I have now reviewed and approved this list in accordance require legislation—would be that in such cases it would with our commitment to do so annually. I am satisfied no longer be possible for anyone other than the CPS (or that the conditions set out in the authorisation are met the Law Officers) to obtain an arrest warrant. This in respect of the countries on the list. would ensure that action is taken only where the expert The authorisation will continue to be reviewed on an and independent investigators and prosecutors in the annual basis and will remain in force until revoked. police and CPS are confident that there is a realistic likelihood of a successful prosecution. Our commitment to international justice is a strong JUSTICE one. This is why, by section 70 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, we recently amended the International Arrest Warrants (Universal Jurisdiction) Criminal Court Act 2001 to ensure that we could prosecute serious international crimes committed as far back as 1991 by UK nationals and residents, thus covering the The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor horrific events in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia. (Mr. Jack Straw): The Government are concerned about We remain absolutely committed to upholding the principles the implications for the United Kingdom’s relations of universal jurisdiction, so that there can be no impunity with other states of the risk that foreign visitors to this for those suspected of such grave offences. What we country might be arrested on the application of a propose is wholly consistent with those principles, and private individual, on suspicion of the gravest of offences, would bring us into line with the practice of a number on the basis of evidence that might well be insufficient of our European and North American partners. 119WS Written Ministerial Statements4 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 120WS

The Government recognise that this is a controversial Committee would consider those proposals. We intend issue, involving as it does the long-standing right of to conclude this process within a month, and to receive private prosecution. Therefore, rather than legislating views by Tuesday 6 April. A copy of my letter to the now, we are going to seek views on the proposals we are Chairman will shortly be placed in the Libraries of minded to make. In particular, I am writing to the both Houses. Chairman of the Justice Select Committee to ask if his

19P Petitions4 MARCH 2010 Petitions 20P

rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, Petition failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing Thursday 4 March 2010 legislative framework. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PRESENTED PETITION Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for Badman Report (North Devon) tighter registration and monitoring of children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent The Petition of Persons resident in the North Devon inquiry into the condition and future of elective home Parliamentary Constituency, education in England; but instead to take the steps Declares that they are concerned about the necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly closer monitoring of home educators, including a implemented, learning from current best practice, in all compulsory annual registration scheme and right of local authorities in England. access to people’s homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the And the Petitioners remain, etc. recommendations are based on a review that was extremely [P000748]

1303W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1304W

Mr. Hain: The Wales Office procures the majority of Written Answers to its paper from Banner, under a contract secured through the Ministry of Justice, and this paper is 80g/m2. The Questions paper used in our publications has been at least 75 per cent. recycled. The Ministry of Justice is working with Banner to Thursday 4 March 2010 procure a paper that is 100 per cent. recycled, which the Wales Office will use. Media and Communications Team: Manpower WALES Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Correspondence Wales how many staff are employed in his Department’s media and communications team; and how many were employed in 2009. [319584] Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has made an estimate of the number of (a) Mr. Hain: The Wales Office’s Press Office consists of emails and (b) letters from members of the public to three full-time members of staff. which his Department has responded since May 2007. [318933] PRIME MINISTER Mr. Hain: This information could be provided only at Building Resilience disproportionate cost. Departmental Energy Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of the paper prepared for the Government in 2001 by Dr. Jamie MacIntosh and Mike Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Granatt CB, entitled, Building Resilience. [319930] Wales what steps his Department plans to take to participate in the Earth Hour event on 27 March 2010. The Prime Minister: The findings informed the [319103] Government’s response to Sir Iain Anderson’s review into the lessons of the 2001 foot and mouth outbreak Mr. Hain: The Wales Office obtains its corporate and which was published and placed in the Libraries of the estates services from the Ministry of Justice, and fall House. within their sustainability targets and strategic programmes. However, the Wales Office is very much entering into the spirit of the Earth Hour event (and the other CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Government estate sustainability targets) and doing Departmental Languages what we ourselves can to reduce our carbon emissions. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Departmental ICT for Culture, Media and Sport how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants in his Department received Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State coaching in a foreign language in the last 12 months; for Wales what information technology projects what expenditure his Department incurred in providing initiated by his Department were cancelled prior to such coaching; and in what languages such coaching completion in the last 12 months; and what the cost of was provided. [320414] each such project was to the public purse. [320436] Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media Mr. David: The Wales Office is provided with its and Sport has not provided coaching in foreign languages information technology services by the Ministry of Justice, to Ministers or civil servants in the Department within and consequently does not initiate projects. the last 12 months. Departmental Paper Departmental Internet Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Culture, Media and Sport what (a) suppliers and (b) how many designs for its website his Department has brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products his Department commissioned since 2005. [318640] uses; and what his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those materials. [320032] Mr. David: The Wales Office commissioned one redesign of its website as part of general improvements and Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department buys its paper through modernisation of the website in 2007. an outsourced stationery supplier, Office Depot, and its paper products through its Facilities Management provider Departmental Paper Carillion. For paper the Department uses Evolve, which is 100 per cent. recycled; and for paper products it uses Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Kimberley-Clark and SCA Hygiene products. Wales what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper The Department’s procurement policy requires it to and (ii) paper products his Department uses; and what use products that are sustainable and which meet current his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those public sector requirements, as specified by the Office of materials. [320024] Government Commerce. 1305W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1306W

Departmental Public Relations corruption in his inauguration speech and again at the London Conference. We expect him to demonstrate this Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for commitment by creating independent institutions that Culture, Media and Sport which public relations can prevent, detect and take action against corrupt companies have had contracts with (a) his Department practices in government. and (b) each of its (i) non-departmental public bodies The UK is a key partner for the Government of and (ii) executive agencies since 2004. [319809] Afghanistan on tackling corruption across a range of areas, including on accountability bodies, support to Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture Media law enforcement and public financial management. We and Sport has had contracts with Harrison Cowley and are one of the biggest donors to the Afghan Government’s Edelman public relations companies since 2004. Our anti-corruption oversight body, High Office of Oversight. executive agency, The Royal Parks, has had contracts We will continue to offer experts from across the with six companies: Bellenden, Brunswick, Cavendish, Government to support the Afghan Government to Chelgate, Colman Getty and London Communities tackle corruption. Agency (LCA). The Department does not centrally maintain records Broadcasting: Iran on public relations companies in respect of its non- departmental bodies. It would incur disproportionate Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for cost to obtain and collate this information. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Digital Broadcasting: Northern Ireland assessment he has made of the extent to which the outputs of (a) BBC Persian TV and (b) other international broadcasters are jammed by the Iranian Christopher Fraser: To ask the Secretary of State for Government; what assessment he has made of the Culture, Media and Sport whether he has had compatibility of such actions with international discussions with the government of the Republic of agreements; what steps he has taken to bring such Ireland on plans for the digitisation of radio. [319475] jamming to an end; and if he will make a statement. [320170] Mr. Bradshaw: No discussions have taken place with the Government of the Republic of Ireland regarding Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are aware that BBC Persian TV switchover to digital radio. and other international broadcasters have been severely National Lottery: Sports disrupted by jamming signals originating from inside Iran. We support the European Parliament’s resolution of 10 February which condemned the Iranian authorities’ Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for efforts to disrupt media services in breach of their Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of athletes International Telecommunications Union (ITU) obligations. supported through lottery funding distributed by UK We are continuing to liaise closely with international Sport attended fee-paying schools. [320009] partners, the ITU and the BBC World Service to seek a resolution to the issue. Mr. Sutcliffe: UK Sport has advised that as part of their 2009 Athlete Insights survey, all athletes on their World Class Programme were asked for details of their Cyprus school careers. Of the 75 per cent. that responded to the survey, 22 per cent. stated that they were either at, or Patrick Hall: To ask the Secretary of State for had attended an independent school at some point Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he during their education. has received on the policy of the Turkish Government on the migration of Turkish nationals from Anatolia to Northern Cyprus; and if he will make a statement. [319947] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Chris Bryant: We are aware of reports of the migration Afghanistan: Politics and Government of Turkish nationals from Anatolia to northern Cyprus. We have no information about a Turkish Government Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign migration policy to Northern Cyprus. and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment his Department has made of the extent of corruption in Departmental Assets the Afghan government; and what steps his Department is taking to seek to reduce levels of such corruption. [318929] Mr. Francois: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Mr. Ivan Lewis: Corruption is endemic throughout ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official society and state. Pervasive corruption within government Report, column 53WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth and the security forces undermines the legitimacy of the Office finances, which assets he plans to sell in order to Government and corrodes consent. Nearly one-fifth of raise the £25 million. [318473] the Afghan population believe corruption is the country’s biggest problem and Afghanistan ranks second to last Chris Bryant: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I on Transparency International’s Corruption Perception gave to the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) Index. President Karzai made a commitment to tackling on 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 213W. 1307W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1308W

Departmental Lost Property Departmental Public Expenditure

Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what equipment owned by and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written his Department has been (a) stolen and (b) otherwise ministerial statement of 23 February 2010, Official unaccounted for in (i) Iraq and (ii) Afghanistan in each Report, columns 34-5WS, on departmental expenditure of the last three years; and what the cost of such limits, for what legal services resources were requested. equipment was. [317970] [319676] David Miliband: Government departments make a Mr. Ivan Lewis: The information is as follows: contribution to the costs of the Office of the Parliamentary Iraq Counsel (OPC) according to a formula which was The following equipment owned by Foreign and introduced in 2004 following a Cabinet decision. Under Commonwealth Office (FCO) has been stolen, or is the formula, departments contribute to the cost of the otherwise unaccounted for, during the last three years OPC in proportion to their share of the total volume of from our posts in Iraq: enacted legislation in the last five years. The £11,000 is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s share of £8.8 Basra million held on the Cabinet Office’s baseline for OPC. No equipment has been stolen or is otherwise unaccounted for The Cabinet Office also invoices departments for their over the last three years. share of the OPC’s costs. Erbil Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign No equipment has been stolen or is otherwise unaccounted for over the last three years. and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 23 February 2010, Official Report, Baghdad columns 34-5WS, on departmental expenditure limits, In 2007 a shipping container was stolen from a transport to what activities the administration costs for modernisation contractor while en route from Basra to Baghdad. It contained of his Department relate; and under what budget headings furnishings and vehicle spares. The cost of the furnishings was those costs were incurred. [319677] £20,000. The cost of the vehicle spares was £10,000. A pickup truck was stolen from the embassy compound by a former locally employed member of staff. The cost of the vehicle was $15,000. David Miliband: This year, Treasury has made available administration budget funds to the Foreign and In 2008 no equipment was reported missing or was otherwise Commonwealth Office (FCO)’s Corporate Services unaccounted for. programme from the modernisation fund in order to In 2009 a pistol worth about £900 was removed from a security make working practices more efficient in future. In contractor’s accommodation compound in the International Zone particular, money has been invested in two restructuring in Baghdad. The contractor’s compound was not part of the embassy compound. Security in Baghdad is of paramount concern initiatives: in the UK, an early retirement scheme was and we took this matter very seriously. A thorough investigation run for the delegated grades; and overseas, posts have into the loss was carried out by a Board of Inquiry. As a result bid for funds to make efficiency gains in their local procedures were strengthened to ensure that such a loss could not workforce engaged in corporate services activity. Funds occur again and two individuals faced disciplinary action. were also used for the FCO Comprehensive Spending Afghanistan Review Value for Money programme. £400,000 was also passed on to UKTI to be spent on their modernisation The following equipment owned by FCO has been programme. stolen, or is otherwise unaccounted for, during the last three years from our posts in Afghanistan: Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Lashkar Gah and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Official No equipment has been recorded as stolen or was otherwise ministerial statement of 23 February 2010, unaccounted for over the last three years. Report, columns 34-5WS, on departmental expenditure limits, to what programmes the restructuring costs referred Kabul to relate; and under what budget headings those costs In 2007 and 2008, no equipment has been recorded as stolen or were incurred. [319678] was otherwise unaccounted for. However, in 2009 eight sets of body armour totalling £7,600 loaned to visitors were not returned. David Miliband: This year, Treasury has made available Steps are being taken to recover them. administration budget funds to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in respect of our Comprehensive Spending Review Value for Money Departmental Manpower programme. Money has been invested in early departure schemes for both the Senior Civil Service and delegated Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for grades. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many of his Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Department’s civil servants work in (a) England, (b) and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland. [319582] ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official Report, column 54WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth Chris Bryant: As at 1 February 2010, the Foreign and Office finances, what cost savings he plans to implement Commonwealth Office employed 3,588 civil servants in relation to his Department’s back-office operations; based in UK locations. All of these officers are based in and whether he expects staff redundancies to form part England. of the cost savings process. [319679] 1309W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1310W

David Miliband: Details of the next stages of the David Miliband: I refer the right hon. Member to my Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s programme of answer to the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) streamlining referred to in the statement have yet to be of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 213W, finalised. namely that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office publishes details of disposals quarterly in a letter to the Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign Affairs Committee. For commercial reasons and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written and in order to realise maximum value from disposals, ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official we do not publish details of planned disposals in advance. Report, column 54WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth Office finances, how much he plans to require the (a) Departmental Wines British Council, (b) BBC World Service and (c) FCO Services Trading Fund to contribute to his Department’s Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State budget. [319680] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department spent on its wine cellar in each of the last David Miliband: I refer the right hon. Member to my five years. [320344] answer to the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 214W, Chris Bryant: The Government Hospitality wine cellar namely that the British Council will make available £5 provides for all Government Departments. For the period million to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) 2004-08, I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by and that the BBC World Service will make £7.7 million my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Gillian Merron) available to the FCO, including an underspend of £4 to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) million in 2009-10. These contributions will not result on 20 April 2009, Official Report, column 510W. in permanent reductions in their baseline, but are for 2010-11 only. FCO Services Trading Fund will make a The figure for 2008-09 was £121,939. special dividend payment to the FCO of £3 million in Diplomatic Service: Manpower financial year 2010-11. Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consultation ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official took place with each of the Civil Service unions on Report, column 54WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth proposals to replace management officers in overseas Office finances, what annual limit will apply to the missions with locally-engaged staff; on what dates such funds available to his Department under the foreign consultation took place; and if he will place in the exchange adjustment account; and if he will make a Library a copy of the report on the outcome of such statement. [319681] consultation. [318449]

David Miliband: For the financial year 2010-11, £20 Chris Bryant: The trade union side (TUS), including million will be available as the Foreign and Commonwealth representatives from those trade unions officially recognised Office’s foreign exchange adjustment account. No by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO), were arrangements have been made for departmental budgets consulted several times informally between 8 June 2009 for financial years beyond this, as such arrangements and 29 January 2010. That informal consultation continues. will depend on the outcome of a future comprehensive The TUS side were consulted formally at Whitley spending review. Council meetings on 17 July and 18 August. The TUS Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign also put their views about the localisation programme and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written to the FCO Whitley Council Joint General Purposes ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official Committee on 24 September 2009. Report, column 54WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth Egypt: Christianity Office finances, how the operation of the new foreign exchange adjustment account differs from previous arrangements to manage his Department’s exposure to Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign exchange rate movements; and if he will make a statement. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations [319682] his Department has made to the government of Egypt on the treatment of Coptic Christians in that country. David Miliband: The foreign exchange adjustment [319652] account will be a departmental unallocated provision which the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government condemn all instances will draw on as necessary to manage the impact of of discrimination and persecution of individuals and foreign exchange fluctuations. It is not a return to the groups because of their religion or belief. At Egypt’s Overseas Price Movements Mechanism under which Universal Periodic Review in February 2010 we encouraged the FCO budget was adjusted from the Treasury Reserve further efforts by the Egyptian government and others to reflect foreign exchange rate movements. in authority to reduce and prevent discrimination on the grounds of an individual’s religion or belief. We Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign have also raised the shooting dead of seven people and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written outside a church in Naga Hammadi with the Egyptian ministerial statement of 10 February 2010, Official government at ministerial level and received assurances Report, column 54WS, on Foreign and Commonwealth of Egypt’s commitment to protecting its Christian Office finances, what assets will be sold to make funding population. We welcome the Egyptian Government’s available for his Department’s budget. [319683] pursuit and arrest of the perpetrators of the crime. 1311W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1312W

The protection of human rights, including freedom HIV is a global issue and the FCO also works of religion, is a central component of Egypt’s ongoing multilaterally for global leadership and effective funding dialogue with the EU. for HIV prevention, treatment and care, including in the countries listed. The UK works on the UNAIDS G20: Public Relations Programme Coordinating Board to push for improved human rights for at-risk communities and vulnerable Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign people. For example, in November, the UK worked and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the successfully with the Eastern Europe Constituency and answer of 16 September 2009, Official Report, column others to protect financial resources for a HIV/AIDS 2232W, on G20: public relations, what the cost to the prevention programme in Russia, targeted at high risk public purse was of the external contracted staff; and groups. from which companies they were contracted. [315498] In addition to our multilateral work, our Posts have been active in Sub-Saharan Africa and South-East Asia, Chris Bryant: A temporary unit was created within although no specific activities have been undertaken the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to support under the Strategy in Cote d’Ivoire or Thailand. posts across the world in their engagement with stakeholders overseas, help organise local events during the run up to Thailand has been recognised as a visionary leader in the summit, as well as providing information for the the AIDS response, and our embassy in Bangkok is London G20 summit website. currently reassessing what action it might take, under the strategy, to support the Thai Government’s efforts. The unit was staffed by FCO and temporary staff with specialist project co-ordination and website India: Christianity development skills. Temporary staff included a project co-ordinator and two events delivery co-ordinators hired Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign from PA Consulting at a cost of £166,934. Two digital and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations editors and a media co-ordinator were also hired through he has made to the Government of India on the treatment COI GovGap at a cost of £90,400. No external public of Christians in Orissa State. [319662] relations or public affairs firms (consultancies) were contracted to provide support for the London G20 Mr. Ivan Lewis: We maintain a dialogue with the summit. Indian authorities on these issues. On 2-5 February a HIV Infection member of our High Commission in New Delhi participated in an EU delegation to Orissa. The EU delegation met Government and police officials, civil society and victims Mr. Borrow: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in Bhubaneswar and Kandhamal. They noted some and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department progress on rehabilitation and resettlement. They also is taking to fulfil its commitments under the Aids strategy, determined that the central government in New Delhi Achieving Universal Access, in (a) Cameroon, (b) were providing basic financial compensation for some Cote d’Ivoire, (c) Thailand and (d) Russia. [319169] of the victims of the 2008 violence. The local authorities continue to work to address displacement and justice Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth issues. The EU also identified cross-community peace-building Office (FCO)’s role under the Government’s Achieving initiatives and improving the capacity of victims lawyers Universal Access HIV strategy is primarily focused on as important areas to address. advocacy and lobbying to support the strategy’s aims. Our work is targeted towards those countries in which Niger: Politics and Government issues of gender inequality, stigma and discrimination are stopping people from taking up preventive services Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and testing, disclosing their status, and seeking treatment for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has and care. had discussions with representatives of the African In Cameroon, we have been fighting institutionalised Union and the government of Niger on the safety of and societal stigma against people living with HIV/AIDS people travelling to and from Niger following the coup through a project called ’Rights of AIDS Sufferers’, run in that country. [319427] in the North West region. It has encouraged employers and socio-cultural groups to adopt specific policies that Mr. Ivan Lewis: The safety of UK nationals is of protect the rights of HIV-infected workers. The work of primary importance to the Foreign and Commonwealth the project was reported nationally on TV and in the Office (FCO). We received information from a variety print media. of sources including international partners at the time Our embassy in Moscow is supporting an Oxfam of the coup and adjusted our Niger travel advice project aimed at improving access and quality of health accordingly, available on the FCO website. No harm care for poor and marginalized groups, including those came to any UK national in Niger during or after the suffering from HIV and AIDS. The project strengthens time of the coup. The FCO will continue to monitor the the role of a coalition of non-governmental organisations situation closely. (NGOs) in holding government accountable for access to and quality of health care. The two year project Nuclear Weapons: Proliferation covers seven regions of Russia. Some of the interim outcomes include an increased awareness by citizens of Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for their rights and the involvement of NGOs in helping to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last met draft regional legislation on accessible health care, with the (a) Parliamentary Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament the NGO focusing on the poor and vulnerable. (CND) Group and (b) Top Level Group of 1313W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1314W

Parliamentarians for Multilateral Nuclear Disarmament Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 2 March 2010]: Prime and Non-proliferation to discuss nuclear non-proliferation contractors will be expected to ensure that DWP provision and nuclear disarmament. [319847] is joined up with local partnership arrangements, working with smaller, specialist providers many of whom will be Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right. hon. Friend the Foreign Third Sector or voluntary organisations dealing with Secretary last met and discussed nuclear non-proliferation disadvantaged groups in the local area. and nuclear disarmament with the Top Level Group of Two networking events were held in September 2009 Parliamentarians for Multilateral Nuclear Disarmament to facilitate bringing together smaller specialist organisations and Non-proliferation on 10 February 2010. He has not and potential Work Choice Prime providers. Nearly 600 met recently with the Parliamentary Campaign for Nuclear people attended these events. Disarmament Group. Departmental NDPBs

WORK AND PENSIONS Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for how many non-departmental public Carer’s Allowance: Gwent bodies her Department is responsible. [314257]

Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jonathan Shaw: Information on the number of non- and Pensions how many people in Islwyn constituency departmental public bodies (NDPBs) sponsored by my who are ineligible for income support (a) are entitled Department is published in the annual Cabinet Office to and (b) receive carer’s allowance. [318144] report—Public Bodies. Public Bodies 2009 is available online at: Jonathan Shaw: The information is not available in http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/public- the format requested; it is not possible to say for what bodies.aspx reason a claimant getting carers allowance might not be Copies have been placed in the Libraries of the House. getting income support. Departmental Plants Departmental Cleaning Services Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department spent on pot and Pensions whether all contracted cleaners for her plants in 2009; [317165] Department’s buildings in London are paid at the level of the London living wage or a higher level. [318516] David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much (a) her Department and Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 24 February 2010]: (b) its agencies has spent on pot plants in (i) 2007-08, The Department encourages all of its suppliers to maintain (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10. [319202] good working conditions for their staff but their actual terms and conditions are a matter for them. Jonathan Shaw: DWP occupies all of its properties under the terms of a facilities management contract Departmental Consultants under which it pays an overall charge in return for fully-serviced accommodation including, where appropriate, Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the provision of interior plants. It is not charged separately and Pensions how much her Department spent on for any elements of this contract. external recruitment consultants in 2009; [317166] Departmental Public Consultation Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department and its Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work agencies spent on external recruitment consultants in and Pensions how many citizens’ juries or summits the last 12 months. [315697] have been hosted by her Department since October 2008; on what date each event took place; and which Jonathan Shaw: The Department and its agencies Ministers were present at each event. [310751] spent £10.4 million on external recruitment consultants in the last 12 months. Jim Knight: There is no central record of any citizen This exceptional figure reflects the need to recruit juries having been hosted by the Department for Work over 15,000 additional staff into Jobcentre Plus in a and Pensions since October 2008. However, a wide very short period of time to meet the extra demands range of citizen engagement activities are regularly created by the recession. I expect the figure for 2010-11 conducted across the Department. These are designed to be substantially lower. to ensure that citizens’ needs are placed at the forefront of improving service delivery and in policy development. Departmental Contracts The following large conferences, aimed at 100 or more delegates, have been organised by the Department Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and addressed by its Ministers for Work and Pensions by what mechanisms she plans since October 2008: to ensure that prime contractors in respect of work The Employment Summit took place on 12 January 2009, and choice programmes include third sector and small and was hosted by the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for medium-sized enterprises as sub-contractors in their Innovation, Universities and Skills, and the Secretary of State for bids for contracts. [320076] Work and Pensions. 1315W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1316W

Department for Work and Pensions’ Annual Forum, London, in the Budget and pre-Budget report. The latest forecast 16 July 2009, for organisations that work with its customers. The was set out in Annex A of the 2009 pre-Budget report Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Department for Work and (Cm 7747), published on 9 December 2009. Pensions attended. A copy of the pre-Budget report (Cm 7747) is available Welfare Reform Green Paper Consultation events, in Edinburgh on 9 October 2008 and Newcastle on 24 October 2008. Both were in the Library. attended by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Employment Schemes: Young People Backing Young Britain: YoungPeople’s Summit on 2 September 2009. This was hosted by the Prime Minister, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and Mr. Iain Wright, Parliamentary Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Under-Secretary at the Department for Children, Schools and Pensions what programmes her Department has to assist Families. young people into employment in Rochdale and the Grandparents Summit, a cross-Government event held on North West; and if she will make a statement. [320199] 12 November 2009. In attendance were the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Parliamentary Secretary for Equality Jim Knight: The Government have implemented a at the Government Equalities Office. substantial package of national measures to address youth unemployment, which are helping young people Disability Living Allowance in the North West region and Rochdale as well as elsewhere. Young people aged 16 to 24 can access Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and apprenticeships, internships, mentoring and work experience Pensions how many awards of disability living allowance through Backing Young Britain. Jobseekers aged 18 to were made to people whose main disabling condition 24 who have been unemployed for six months are was cancer in the latest period for which figures are guaranteed the offer of a job, training or work experience available; and what the average waiting time was for through the Young Person’s Guarantee via provision such an award to be made in that period. [316776] that includes the Future Jobs Fund, Routes into Work, Work Focused Training, and the Community Task Force, Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 10 February 2010]: as well as internships and access to help with self The following table provides information on cases in employment. From April taking up one of these options payment where the main disabling condition is recorded will become mandatory. as malignant disease and which includes cancer, carcinoma We have so far agreed to fund 17,078 jobs under the and leukaemia. Future Jobs Fund in the North West. We do not record the average waiting time for a Equality 2025 disability living allowance award where the main disabling condition was cancer. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Disability cases in payment where the main disabling condition is and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 9 February 2010, recorded as malignant disease, May 2009 Official Report, column 863W,on the Review of Equality Number 2025, on what date (a) the report was completed and Total 54,200 (b) Ministers of her Department received the report; Notes how many officials of her Department are responsible 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100 and have been uprated to be for considering and implementing the report’s consistent with Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study data. recommendations; and if she will make a statement. 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and [318792] exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 3. Where more than one disability is present only the main disabling Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 25 February 2010]: condition is recorded. The initial recommendations from the review were 4. A diagnosed medical condition does not mean that someone is submitted to the Minister for Disabled People for approval automatically entitled to disability living allowance. Entitlement is in September 2009 and were accepted by him. Following dependent on an assessment of how much help someone needs with personal care and/or mobility because of their disability. These statistics the written ministerial statement to Parliament on 10 are only collected for administrative purposes. December 2009, Official Report, columns 40-42WS, the Source: recommendations were published on the website of the Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5 per Office for Disability Issues. The report was finalised on cent. sample. 23 February 2010, following detailed work to ensure compliance with data protection requirements, and sent Employment to the Minister for Disabled People. The Secretary to Equality 2025 has been involved in Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work supporting Equality 2025 with implementing these and Pensions what forecasts of employment levels have recommendations, with input, as appropriate, from the been (a) made and (b) used by her Department since Director and Deputy Director of the Office for Disability 2007. [317633] Issues. Work on implementing the recommendations is ongoing and will be completed by late June 2010. Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions does not produce a forecast of employment levels of Health Services: Isle of Man its own. The Department draws on a number of elements of Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for the Budget and pre-Budget report economic forecasts Work and Pensions for what reasons her Department for planning purposes. These forecasts are detailed, along has not replied to the letter from the Government of with a discussion of the current state of the economy, the Isle of Man sent in 2009, requesting advice on the 1317W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1318W

Isle of Man’s desire to negotiate a bilateral health (2) how many customers have been referred to agreement with the Scottish Executive; and if she will Flexible New Deal phase one providers in each region make a statement. [320268] in each month to the end of January 2010. [317047]

Helen Goodman: My Department has no record of Jim Knight [holding answer 22 February 2010]: The receiving any such letter from the Government of the information is not available in the format requested. Isle of Man in 2009 concerning its negotiation of a Delivery of the flexible new deal (FND) started from 5 bilateral health agreement with the Scottish Executive. October 2009 in phase 1 areas. If my hon. Friend would care to supply further details The Department is working to guidelines set by the of the letter, I will look into the matter urgently. UK Statistics Authority to ensure that we are able to Incapacity Benefit publish statistics that meet the high quality standards at the earliest opportunity. Further information on the Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work timing and scope of the release of FND statistics will be and Pensions what assessment she has made of the made available through the Department’s website. effectiveness of sanctions that have been imposed on Pensioners: Poverty existing claimants of incapacity benefit; and what the most common reasons are for the imposition of sanctions on claimants. [319021] Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what additional assistance her Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 26 February 2010]: Department provided to pensioners during the recent The purpose of sanctions is to encourage compliance recession. [319026] with the requirement to take part in work-focused interviews. The only reason for imposing sanctions on claimants is Angela Eagle: The Government provided a range of if they fail to take part in a work-focused interview, additional support to pensioners through the recent without good cause. economic downturn and continues to provide support From the assessments which the Department has during the early stages of economic recovery. made of the effectiveness of the sanctions regime, as In his pre-Budget report statement on 24 November part of the extension to existing customers in Jobcentre 2008 the Chancellor announced the intention to give Plus-led Pathways districts over 2005-06, it is clear the every pensioner a one-off payment of £60 on top of the use of sanctions had a positive impact on attendance at regular £10 Christmas bonus received in December work-focused interviews. However, customer views on 2008. This was paid as a one-off increase to the Christmas the appropriateness of the use of sanctions were mixed. bonus for 2008 only and was paid to all qualifying The Department has published two research reports recipients of the Christmas bonus. on the experiences of existing customers and these The payment provided additional direct financial include a discussion regarding sanctions: support to help vulnerable groups through the economic Pathways to Work: Extension to some existing customers: downturn. In total the additional £60 payments cost Early findings from qualitative research, Policy Studies Institute, around £900 million. Department for Work and Pensions report no. 323, 2006, The Government made an additional payment alongside http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2005-2006/ the winter fuel payment for winters 2008-09 and 2009-10 rrep323.pdf of £50 for households with someone aged 60-79 and Pathways to Work: Extension to existing customers (matched £100 for those with someone aged 80 or over. This case study), National Centre for Social Research, Department for Work and Pensions report no. 418, 2007, means the winter fuel payments have been £250 and http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2007-2008/ £400 respectively which provides a significant contribution rrep418.pdf towards an older person’s winter fuel bill. Cold weather payments for the winter of 2008-09 and 2009-10 have Copies of both reports have been placed in the Library. also been increased from £8.50 to £25.00 providing Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work additional support to the most vulnerable. With the and Pensions how many claimants of incapacity exception of those living in certain accommodation benefit were sanctioned in each of the last 10 years; such as care homes, all pensioners on pension credit will and what the monetary value was of sanctions imposed qualify for a cold weather payment when the average in each of those years. [319022] temperature has been recorded as, or is forecast to be 0° C or below over seven consecutive days at the weather Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 26 February 2010]: station linked to the eligible customer’s postcode. The Department does not publish data on the number In April 2010, the Government have committed to of people who have been sanctioned who claim incapacity increase the basic state pension by 2.5 per cent. This benefit; such data could be provided only at commitment, first given in 2001, was confirmed in the disproportionate cost. The same is true for those customers Chancellor’s 2009 pre-Budget report, despite the negative in receipt of employment and support allowance and growth for the September 2009 retail prices index, providing income support. a real-terms boost to basic state pension. This means New Deal Schemes that in 2010-11, pensioners will have seen a long-term real increase of 12 per cent. in their basic state pension, Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work which is over £10 per week, since 1997. and Pensions (1) what forecast the Government made The Chancellor has also confirmed that from April of the number of expected referrals to Flexible New 2010 the poorest pensioners will also benefit from an Deal phase one providers in each region in each of the above indexation increase in the standard minimum first six months of its operation; [317038] guarantee in pension credit, an increase of £2.60 a week 1319W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1320W for single people and £3.95 for couples. This means that, The amount of disability living allowance someone from April 2010, no single pensioner need live on less receives, depends on how much help they need with than £132.60 a week and no couple on less than £202.40. personal care and/or mobility. It is not dependent on That is a real terms increase of more than a third for the whether they have a specific diagnosis or medical condition. poorest pensioners since 1997. The 2 per cent. increase For example, a customer would not be awarded disability ensures that the vast majority of the poorest pensioners living allowance on the basis of a diagnosis of Fibromyalgia. will be able to see the full benefit of the 2.5 per cent. The decision would be based upon their care/supervision increase in the basic state pension. needs and on the help they need to get around as a In order to help those pensioners who receive income result of the any associated physical or psychological from savings and who may have been affected by lower complications. interest rates, the Government have increased the threshold in pension credit (and housing and council tax benefit Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for those who have attained the qualifying age for and Pensions what information her Department has pension credit) from £6,000 to £10,000 from November issued to staff of the Disability and Carers Service with 2009, so that pensioners can have up to £10,000 without regard to fibromyalgia. [318399] it affecting their benefits. Jonathan Shaw: There is no specific internal guidance This change will benefit around 500,000 pensioners for Decision Makers about fibromyalgia. and will mean around 88 per cent. of pension credit recipients will have all of their capital ignored in their Staff use the Decision Makers’ Guide and the NHS pension credit assessment. Choices website, and specific advice is obtained on a case-by-case basis from health care professionals working The Government also increased ISA limits up to under contract within the Department. £10,200 for people aged 50 and over from 6 October 2009. State Retirement Pensions Since November 2008, the Government have maintained the standard interest rate used to calculate support for Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work mortgage interest at 6.08 per cent. to provide support and Pensions (1) with reference to the answer of for homeowners on pension credit who receive help 23 June 2009, Official Report, column 817W, on state with their mortgage. In his pre-Budget report on 9 retirement pensions, how much her Department has December 2009, the Chancellor announced that the paid out in such lump sums to date; how many people rate of 6.08 per cent. would be maintained for a further have received such payments; when she expects to six months, to provide continued support to these customers. complete the exercise; and if she will make a statement; The Government also launched a tax back awareness [319818] campaign in autumn 2009 contacting all those in receipt (2) what her most recent estimate is of the number of of pension credit to encourage them to claim back tax cases of pensioners potentially entitled to lump sum they may have overpaid on their savings income and, payments of backdated retirement pension through where possible, register to receive interest on their savings payment of Class 3 national insurance contributions to tax-free in future. take account of pensioners. [320120] Social Security Benefits Angela Eagle [holding answers 1 and 3 March 2010]: The Department has contacted 23,884 women with Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for potential to benefit from paying class 3 national insurance Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the contributions. For the period up to 22 February 2010, monetary value of unclaimed benefits of each type in 12,924 women have received lump sums of backdated (a) the Highlands, (b) Scotland and (c) England and pension, totalling £10,138,932.00. Of these, 871 also Wales in each of the last three years. [320124] benefited from arrears of state pension after correction of their home responsibilities protection (HRP). Helen Goodman: Estimates of unclaimed benefits are available for Great Britain only; they are not available In addition, as part of this exercise, 2,360 customers for the geographical areas requested. were paid arrears of state pension resulting only from correction of their HRP.The total arrears paid resulting The latest estimates of unclaimed benefit amounts from correction of HRP is £1,488,244. for Great Britain are published in the report “Income Related Benefits Estimates of Take-Up in 2007-08” a The exercise has officially ended but customers have, copy of which is available in the Library. by law, until 5 April 2010 to contact the Department so this figure may increase. Social Security Benefits: Fibromyalgia Vauxhall Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage of applicants for Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work disability living allowance diagnosed with fibromyalgia and Pensions if she will set out, with statistical evidence have had their application approved. [318395] relating as closely as possible to Vauxhall constituency, the effects on the constituency of changes to her Jonathan Shaw: The information is not available, as Department’s policies since 1997. [310327] data on diagnosis for disallowed claims are not collected. This means that it is not possible to determine what Jonathan Shaw: As the biggest delivery Department percentage of applicants who listed Fibromyalgia on in the UK, DWP makes a difference to millions of their claim form were allowed or disallowed. people every day, helping them to lead safer, fairer and 1321W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1322W more rewarding lives that are free from poverty. The that they can afford to turn up their heating during cold policies that we have introduced since 1997 have aimed weather. Prior to winter 1997-98 less than £60 million to give people more choice and control over their lives. was spent helping pensioners meet their fuel bills—this Through our welfare reform programme, we are committed year we will be spending around £2.7 billion on winter to providing personalised support to everyone who fuel payments alone. In 2008-09, 11,950 people aged 60 needs it so they have the opportunity to get into and and over benefited from winter fuel payments in Vauxhall. remain in work. We have also taken steps to strengthen and protect Support to find work the private pensions system to ensure people can continue Through Jobcentre Plus, we are promoting work as to have confidence to save for their future through the the best form of welfare for people of working age. establishment of the Pensions Protection Fund, the Since 1997, the number of people unemployed in Vauxhall Financial Assistance Scheme and a more powerful and has decreased by 27 per cent. to 5,067, and the number proactive pensions regulator. unemployed for more than one year has decreased by The protection system ensures that, unlike in 1997, 71 per cent. to 810. Since 1997 to May 2009 the number people aren’t left without a pension even in the event of lone parents claiming income support in Vauxhall that their employer becomes insolvent. has decreased by 43 per cent. to 3,090. In total 423 people in the London area are receiving Our New Deal programmes have helped lone parents, compensation from the Pension Protection Fund (data the young unemployed, the long-term unemployed, disabled not available at constituency level). people, the over 50s and partners of unemployed people to move from benefit into work. Since their inception We have also taken forward a radical package of over 2.2 million people in the UK have found work with pension reforms in the Pensions Acts of 2007 and 2008 the support of the New Deal, and 7,510 have been which will deliver a fairer and more generous state helped in Vauxhall. pension and extend the opportunity of workplace pension Support for children saving to millions, many for the first time. We introduced a target to halve child poverty by The state pension reforms begin to come into effect 2010-11 on the way to eradicating it by 2020. Poverty is from 2010 and will mean around three quarters of measured using a headline indicator of the proportion women reaching state pension age in 2010 are expected of children in households with an income below 60 per to qualify for a full basic state pension compared to half cent. of contemporary household median income before without reform. housing costs. This is in line with international best Support for disabled people and carers practice. Since 2001, we have significantly extended and improved Statistics on the numbers of children living in poverty civil rights for disabled people in areas such as employment, are not available at the constituency level, but the latest education, access to goods and services and transport. information for the inner London area shows that the Disabled people in Vauxhall will have benefited from proportion of children in poverty fell from 39 per cent. these improvements. The Welfare Reform Act 2009 to 27 per cent. since 1997. contains powers to increase choice and control for Support for older people disabled adults, including disabled parents, enabling Since 1997 our strategy has been to target extra help them to choose how certain state support is used to at the poorest pensioners while providing a solid foundation meet their individual needs. Older and less well-off of support for all. carers are receiving extra help through the provisions within the National Carers Strategy. This year we will be spending over £13 billion more on pensioners than if we had continued with the policies that were in place in 1997. Around half of that money Work Capability Assessment will go to the poorest third of pensioners. In 1997 the poorest pensioners, who received income support, lived on £69 a week (£98 in today’s prices). Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Today pension credit, which was introduced in 2003, and Pensions for what reasons all three point scoring means no pensioner needs to live on less than £130 a descriptors have been removed from the work week, £198.45 for couples. As of May 2009, 5,260 capability assessment; and if she will make a statement. pensioners in Vauxhall are receiving pension credit. [318176] In 2007-08 there were 900,000 fewer pensioners living in relative poverty in the UK compared to 1998-99 Jonathan Shaw: In October 2008, with the introduction (measured as below 60 per cent. of contemporary median of employment and support allowance, the work capability household income after housing costs). Statistics on the assessment replaced the personal capability assessment numbers of pensioners living in relative poverty are not for all new claims. The new assessment was developed available at the constituency level, but the latest information in consultation with representative groups and medical for the inner London area shows that the proportion of experts, to provide a more accurate assessment of an pensioners in poverty has fallen from 42 per cent. to individual’s functional capability in the context of a 29 per cent. since 1997. modern workplace, who concluded that the three point Pensioners in the UK also benefit from a range of descriptors did not add up to an overall level of functional additional support such as the winter fuel payment limitation at which it is unreasonable to expect a person which this winter is worth £250 for households aged to work. They reflect the sort of condition that any between 60-79 and £400 for households aged 80 or over. individual can expect to experience, without having any These payments provide vital reassurance to older people significant functional limitation. 1323W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1324W

DEFENCE Year commencing Rent (£ million) Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations November 1996 72.3 June 1997 110.6 Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence June 1998 108.6 what estimate he has made of the average number of June 1999 109.7 flying hours for each (a) Apache and (b) Chinook June 2000 115.7 machine in Afghanistan in each of the last three years. June 2001 119.2 [320007] June 2002 127.6 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I will not provide details of the June 2003 129.8 number of flying hours that our deployed helicopters in June 2004 131.9 Afghanistan have completed, either by specific airframes June 2005 138.1 or by the fleet as a whole, for operational security June 2006 143.5 reasons; the release of this information would, or would June 2007 148.6 be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness, or June 2008 150.3 security of our armed forces. June 2009 to December 2009 113.0 Since November 2006, there has been an increase of The Department does not pay any maintenance costs nearly 140 per cent. in all UK battlefield helicopter to AHL. flying hours. We will enhance our helicopter capability further, and will ensure that it continues to meet operational requirements. For example, we are converting eight Army: Lost Property Chinook Mk 3 aircraft to a support helicopter role and this will allow us to deliver more Chinooks to Afghanistan. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many pieces of protective eye wear Armed Forces: Housing have been reported (a) lost and (b) stolen from the armed forces in each of the last 12 months; [319709] Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many army uniforms have been reported (a) Defence (1) how much his Department has paid for lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months.; improvements and modernisation of residential [319710] dwellings in each year since Annington Homes acquired its former housing stock; [320261] (3) how many sets of army gloves have been reported (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months.; (2) how much his Department paid Annington [319711] Homes in (a) rent and (b) maintenance costs for residential dwellings in each year since the company (4) how many army flares have been reported (a) acquired his Department’s former properties. [320262] lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months; [319712] Mr. Kevan Jones: While the Ministry of Defence (5) how many army knives have been reported (a) (MOD) retains responsibility for the upgrade, improvement lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months.; and maintenance of properties leased from Annington [319713] Homes Ltd. (AHL), the expenditure is not centrally (6) how many army ration packs have been reported recorded nor separately identifiable from that on other (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months; Service Family Accommodation (SFA) in England and [319716] Wales or Great Britain. (7) how many army medical kits have been reported However, I refer the hon. Member to the answer I (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months; gave on 11 January 2010, Official Report, column 401W, [319718] which gave details of the total maintenance and upgrade (8) how many army radios have been reported (a) expenditure on SFA in Great Britain. We have been able lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months; to break this down further as follows: [319721] Upgrading SFA in England and Wales (9) how many pieces of body armour have been Expenditure (£ million) reported (a) lost and (b) stolen from the Army in each 2001-02 n/a of the last 12 months; [319722] 2002-03 n/a (10) how many army helmets have been reported (a) 2003-04 8.3 lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months. 2004-05 6.0 [319723] 2005-06 4.4 2006-07 11.4 Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally 2007-08 13.9 and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2008-09 27.4 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Most SFA properties in England and Wales were sold Defence how many army rocket launchers have been to AHL by the previous Conservative Government in reported (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 1996, the majority of which were immediately leased months. [319714] back by the MOD to house entitled service personnel and their families. The annual rent paid to AHL in each Mr. Kevan Jones: No rocket launchers have been year was: reported as lost or stolen during the last 12 months. 1325W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1326W

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Full statistics on cadet forces can be found on the Defence how many grenades have been reported (a) Defence Analytical Services and Advice organisation’s lost and (b) stolen from the Army in each of the last website in their Tri-Service Publication (TSP) 7: 12 months. [319715] www.dasa.mod.uk

Mr. Kevan Jones: No grenades have been reported as Defence Equipment lost or stolen during the last 12 months.

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence how many army night vision goggles have how many (a) rifles, (b) mortars, (c) machine guns been reported (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last and (d) artillery weapons were (i) in service with the 12 months. [319717] Army and (ii) available for use by the Army in operations on the latest date for which figures are Mr. Kevan Jones: No night vision goggles have been available. [319491] centrally reported as stolen in the past 12 months but 21 have been reported lost. These include helmet mounted Mr. Quentin Davies: The in-service figures for rifles, systems and those designed for use in military vehicles. mortars, machine guns and artillery weapons are provided in the following table. Availability data for rifles, mortars Army: National Bullying Helpline and machine guns is not held centrally. I am withholding information on the number of artillery weapons currently available on operations, as its disclosure would, or Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness Defence what contacts the Army has had with the or security of the armed forces. National Bullying Helpline since 2004; and whether the Army has made any payments to (a) the National In service (number) Bullying Helpline and (b) HR and Diversity Management Limited in that period. [320160] SA80 A2 180,000 SSI/338 561 Mr. Kevan Jones: The Army has no relationship with Carbine 1414 either the National Bullying Helpline or HR and Diversity Management. The armed forces have a well-publicised Machine Guns Confidential Support Line which is run by the Soldiers, HMG 1,100 Sailors, Airmen and Families Association—Forces Help GMG 350 charity, which is, independent of the Chain of Command. GPMG 8450 Individuals within the Army are, free to contact LMG 4500 either the National Bullying Helpline or HR and Diversity Management should they wish to do so. While it is possible that either organisation may have made contact Mortars with Army units on individual cases, this information is 81 MM Mortar 500 not held centrally and could be provided only at 60MM B Mortar 115 disproportionate cost. 60MM H Mortar 102

Cadet Forces Artillery AS90 116 Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for 105 mm Lt Gun 125 Defence how many (a) school-aged children in MLRS 36 maintained schools and (b) other school-aged children Stormer SP HVM 60 were enrolled in community cadet forces in the latest Rapier FSV Launcher 32 year for which figures are available; [316310] Departmental Buildings Mr. Kevan Jones: The information required is not held in the format requested. The data provided reflects only the category of ’State’ schools (noting that for the Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for purposes of Combined Cadet Force (CCF) data collated Defence what the (a) area and (b) estimated value is by MOD, all other schools are categorised as Independent). of (i) vacant and (ii) occupied office space (A) owned As at 1 April 2009, and subject to the caveats mentioned and (B) rented by his Department. [310532] above, there were 7,579 School pupils who were members of their State School’s Combined Cadet Force. However, Mr. Kevan Jones: Within Defence, the civil office given that the majority of Cadets are members of a estate is defined as that which is capable of being shared community-based Cadet unit, it is estimated that some with other Government Departments. Information in 90,000 cadets are state school pupils. In the same timeframe respect of these offices will take some time to collect there were some 130,000 cadets overall. It should also and verify. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as be noted that there are 25 known partnerships where possible. Independent Schools with CCFs provide cadet places Other office space outside this definition includes to neighbouring State schools; for these partnerships it facilities within armed forces establishments and buildings. is not possible to identify the numbers of State School This information is not recorded and could be provided cadets. only at disproportionate cost. 1327W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1328W

Substantive answer from Kevan Jones to Sarah Teather: Military Bases: Security In my answer of 14 January (Official Report, column 1103W) I undertook to write to you with details of the area and estimated Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence value of vacant and occupied office space owned and rented by pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2010, Official this Department. Report, column 465W, on military bases: security, in Within the defence estate, the civil office estate is broadly defined which military bases the incursions were recorded. as that which is capable of being shared with other Government [318619] Departments. On this basis the details are as follows: Owned Mr. Kevan Jones: RAF Fylingdales, HMNB Clyde Equivalent rental and RAF Mildenhall. Square metre space value (£ million)

Occupied 345,000 21.4 Vacant 1,800 0.2 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Rented Total rental value Departmental Advertising Square metre space (£ million) Occupied 80,307 14.6 Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Vacant 2,294 0.89 Communities and Local Government how much was Office space outside this definition includes facilities within spent on advertising by (a) his Department and (b) Armed Forces establishments and space used as offices (perhaps each (i) non-departmental public body and (ii) executive temporarily) within buildings of a different type such as hangars agency for which his Department is responsible in each on barracks. year since 2005. [320779]

Barbara Follett: I refer the hon. Member to the Departmental Paper answers given to the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) on 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 478W, and to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Shapps) on 7 January 2010, Official Report, columns 502- Defence what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper 03W. and (ii) paper products his Department uses; and what his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those Departmental Theft materials. [320031] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Quentin Davies: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) Communities and Local Government how many thefts procures the majority of its paper and some paper from his Department have been recorded in the last two products from Office Depot UK Ltd. under an enabling years. [318999] contract that was awarded to the company in 2007. Paper products are also procured from Lyreco UK Ltd Barbara Follett: In the financial year 2007-08 there under a similar enabling contract for the supply of was a total of 17 thefts from the Department for stationery items. Specialist photographic paper is supplied Communities and Local Government. The items stolen by Calumet. are: The brands of paper available under the Office Depot contract are: Office Depot/Niceday; Evolve; Xerox; IQ Number Selection; Mondi IQ; Conqueror; Epsom; Hewlett Packard; Building passes 3 Fizz; Regal; Maine; Satimat; Crusade; Amber; Graphic; Desk-top computers 3 Colorit; Lumi; Kodak and Fuji. Laptop computers 9 The brands of paper products available under the Mobile phones 2 Office Depot, Lyreco and Calumet contracts are: Mondi IQ; Conqueror; Epson; Hewlett Packard; Office Depot; In the financial year 2008-09 there was a total of 11 Xerox; Kraft; Vanguard; Lyreco/Impega; Avery; Brother; thefts from the Department for Communities and Local Dymo; P-touch; Clairefontaine; Jiffy; Tyvek; NewGuardian; Government. The items stolen are: Tenzalope; Post-it; Pukka Pad; Black n’Red; Unipad; Vestry; Goldline; Collins; Sasco; Filofax; Nobo; Acco; Number Bantex; Leitz; Centurion; Eastlight; Elba; Exacompta; BlackBerrys 5 Esselte; Concord; Acco and Fellowes. Laptop computers 5 MOD’s procurement policy requires the use of recycled Mobile phone 1 paper and paper products except where these do not meet specific requirements, such as for specialist The stolen building passes were reported and cancelled photographic paper. Recycled content under the current ensuring that no unauthorised entry to CLG premises contracts with Office Depot and Lyreco varies between occurred. 70 per cent. and 100 per cent. It will be our aim in the None of the information contained on laptops, PCs follow-on contracts to adhere fully to the Government’s or BlackBerrys was classified. However, each laptop policy, except in cases where there are specific specialised and PC was password protected and the BlackBerrys needs. were both encrypted and password protected. 1329W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1330W

Derelict Land: Regeneration Mr. Ian Austin: “Strategic development area” is not an official or specific designation—it is a general planning Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for term like the phrase “town centre” used in many, but Communities and Local Government it he will not all, development plans (local, regional and sub establish a Coalfields Regeneration Review to gauge regional) to refer to areas where development is expected progress and identify priorities for the future. [320516] to happen. We therefore do not hold the information requested. Mr. Ian Austin: Communities and Local Government intend to undertake a review of the Government’s programme to regenerate former coalfield communities. The Department will work with stakeholders on the Social Rented Housing: Finance details of the review and an announcement will be made in due course. Homes and Communities Agency and Tenant Services Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority: Equality Communities and Local Government (1) how many properties were funded under the Temporary Social Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing programme in each of the last three years; Communities and Local Government whether the (a) [318774] Tenant Services Authority and (b) Homes and (2) how many properties managed by registered Communities Agency has obtained legal advice on its social landlords and funded through the Temporary obligations under the provisions of the Equality Bill. Social Housing programme in 2008-09 were owned by [320280] (a) private individuals, (b) unregistered social landlords and co-operatives, (c) local authorities and John Healey: Neither the Homes and Communities (d) other public bodies; [318731] Agency nor the Tenant Services Authority has sought external legal advice on the provisions of the Equality (3) how many properties in receipt of Temporary Bill. However, both organisations have considered in-house Social Housing programme funding were (a) improved legal advice and have published single equalities schemes. and (b) unimproved in each of the last three years; [318733] Housing Revenue Accounts (4) how many properties in receipt of funding under the Temporary Social Housing programme in 2008-09 Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for were (a) subject to compulsory purchase orders, (b) Communities and Local Government when he intends subject to Empty Dwelling Management Orders, (c) to publish a draft revised Circular 8/95 on the long-term privately owned, (d) awaiting operation of the Housing Revenue Account ring fence. redevelopment or sale and (e) over shops in town [320571] centres; [318734] Mr. Ian Austin: We intend to make an announcement (5) how many registered social landlords were in in the next few weeks which will describe the progress receipt of funding under the Temporary Social we have made on self-financing, set out more details of Housing programme in each of the last three years; our proposals and provide a summary of responses to [318735] the consultation. We expect this will include proposals (6) how much was spent on the Temporary Social on how the housing revenue account ring fence would Housing programme in each of the last five years. operate within a reformed system. [318736] Housing: Chelmsford Mr. Ian Austin [holding answer 25 February 2010]: Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table shows spend on temporary social Communities and Local Government how many housing (TSH) through the Homes and Communities first-time buyers purchased a home in West Chelmsford Agency’s (HCA) National Affordable Housing Programme constituency in the last three years. [320353] (NAHP) over the last five years.

Mr. Ian Austin: Estimates of the number of first-time £ million buyers buying a home with a mortgage in the UK are published by the Council of Mortgage Lenders based 2004-05 17.1 on their Regulated Mortgage Survey. However, these 2005-06 9.6 data are not available at the geographical level requested. 2006-07 10.5 2007-08 12.4 Regional Planning and Development 2008-09 12.9 Source: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for HCA Communities and Local Government what strategic development areas (SDAs) there are in England; how The following table shows the number of TSH units many homes are expected to be constructed in each provided over each of the three years 2006-07 to 2008-09 SDA; and when each area is expected to be completed. through HCA’s NAHP which were improved or unimproved [320258] and the number of registered social landlords (RSLs): 1331W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1332W

Improved Unimproved Homes provided Number of RSLs which completed TSH schemes

2006-07 146 232 378 14 2007-08 311 161 472 14 2008-09 260 197 457 12 Source: HCA Investment Management System

Information is not held centrally on whether these Building Societies: Regulation properties were owned by (a) private individuals, (b) un-registered social landlords and co-operatives, (c) Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer local authorities and (d) other public bodies or on what reports he has received from the Financial whether they were (a) properties subject to compulsory Services Authority on its stress testing exercise on purchase orders, (b) properties subject to Empty Dwelling building societies; and whether that exercise has been Management Orders, (c) long-term privately owned, concluded. [313292] (d) awaiting redevelopment or sale and (e) properties over shops in town centres. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The FSA made a statement on Supported Housing: Young People stress tests on 28 May 2009, available at: http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/ 2009/068.shtml Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to Further to this, the FSA have set out their ongoing the answer of 26 January 2010, Official Report, columns approach to stress testing in Policy Paper PS 09/20 770W, on housing: lone parents, how many individual (published December 2009, available at: places in foyers and specialist supported housing will be http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/About/What/international/ provided each year under that scheme; and whether he stress_testing/index.shtml has made an estimate of the proportion of all 16 to More details are available on the FSA’s website. 17 year old single parents able to be housed under that scheme. [319109] Child Benefit: Foreigners Mr. Ian Austin: The Prime Minister announced in September 2009 that all 16 and 17-year-old teenage Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the parents should receive housing with support. Exchequer (1) how many nationals of each A8 country were receiving child benefit for a child or children living in another EEA member state at the end of December 2009; and in respect of how many such children child TREASURY benefit was being paid on that date; [320265] Alcoholic Drinks: Fraud (2) how many nationals of each A8 country were receiving child benefit for a child or children living in Mr. Dismore: To ask the Chancellor of the another EEA member state at the end of the most Exchequer how many officials have been employed to recent month for which figures are available; and in deliver the HM Revenue and Customs’ alcohol fraud respect of how many such children child benefit was strategy. [316991] being paid on that date. [320279] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: There are no figures available for the number of HMRC staff working on alcohol Mr. Timms: Around 7.5 million families are currently fraud strategy. This is because officers are deployed claiming child benefit for around 13 million children. flexibly across a number of areas. The information requested is provided in the table. Banks: Manpower These child benefit awards are made by virtue of EC social security co-ordinating regulations which the UK Mr. Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer has administered since it joined the European Economic (1) what estimate he has made of the effect of the Community in 1973. reclassification of employees of nationalised banks on the (a) number of public sector employees and (b) As of 31 December 2009 As of 28 February 2010 total public sector pay bill in the next 12 months; Number of Number of Number of Number of Country awards children awards children [318633] (2) what recent estimate he has made of the effect of Czech 174 289 180 299 the reclassification of employees of banks in public Republic ownership on (a) the number of people employed in Estonia 16 28 19 31 the public sector and (b) total public sector pay bill. Hungary 76 119 78 124 [320647] Latvia 281 373 302 405 Lithuania 797 1,133 827 1,196 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: It is a matter for the Office for Poland 23,214 37,633 23,324 38,677 National Statistics (ONS) to determine classification of Slovakia 1,506 2,554 1,523 2,639 employees in these banks and the impact that any such Slovenia 5 6 4 6 classification has on public sector pay over the next Total 26,069 42,135 26,257 43,377 12 months will be reflected in ONS statistics. 1333W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1334W

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008 Repayments of tax to Amount donated using charities through Gift Aid Mr. Martyn Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Gift Aid (£ billion) (£ million) Exchequer (1) how many (a) banks and (b) building 2008-09 4.3 1947 societies have used the provisions of the Dormant 1 £947 million includes £56 million paid as Gift Aid transitional relief Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008 to supplement. transfer funds into the Big Lottery Fund for good Source: causes; [319965] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/charities/menu.htm (2) how much money has been transferred to the Big (tables 10.1 and 10.3) Lottery Fund for distribution to good causes under the Following the Gift Aid consultation in 2007, the provisions of the Dormant Bank and Building Society Government announced a package of measures in Budget Accounts Act 2008. [319966] 2008 aimed at increasing the take-up of Gift Aid, including: Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Chancellor announced in improved HMRC guidance for charities and donors; pre-Budget report 2009 that the Co-operative Financial a new Gift Aid toolkit to help charities set up and run Services intend to submit an application to the FSA for successful Gift Aid schemes; authorisation to establish and administrate a Reclaim extension of the tax effective giving initiative delivered through Fund, subject to work going ahead as planned, as part the Institute of Fundraising; of the Dormant Bank and Building Societies Accounts a small charities training programme, to ensure that small local Act 2008. Once established, dormant account funds will charities can access guidance and training on Gift Aid; be transferred from banks and building societies to the Reclaim Fund. This will enable surplus funds to flow to promoting the use of local umbrella charities to help community and voluntary groups access Gift Aid; the BIG Lottery Fund and to spending priorities in due course. a new online Gift Aid mentoring forum for charities. In February 2010, HM Treasury set up a Gift Aid Equitable Life Assurance Society forum to consider further improvements to Gift Aid, informed by recent Government-sponsored research into Mr. Brady: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the effect of tax incentives on charitable giving. The on what occasions Ministers in his Department have forum will come up with recommendations by September met with Mr Chris Wiscarson, Chief Executive of 2010. Equitable Life, since his appointment in September 2009; and when he expects the next such meeting to Housing: Valuation take place. [320579]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 11 January 2010, the public and private sectors as part of the process of Official Report, column 765W, on housing: valuation, policy development and delivery. As was the case with how many dwellings are recorded (a) with a WK value previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s significant code and (b) as having a reputational issue. practice to provide details of all such meetings. [319737]

Gift Aid Ian Pearson: The number of dwellings recorded as (a) having a value significant code (VSC) of WK was Mr. David Hamilton: To ask the Chancellor of the 72,244 as at 2 September 2009, which represents 0.3 per Exchequer (1) how much the Government contributed cent. of all dwellings in council tax valuation lists in to charities through the Gift Aid scheme in each of the England and Wales. No specific recording is made of last five years for which figures are available; and how (b) a ‘reputational risk’. Where a value significant many people made charitable contributions through feature is to be recorded that is not covered by any of the scheme in each such year; [319949] the other VSCs, it is given a WK code. The number of (2) what steps he has taken to increase the number of dwellings with each VSC is available in both the disclosure charitable donations made using the Gift Aid scheme. log on the Valuation Office Agency’s website at [319950] www.voa.gov.uk and the Library of the House. Ian Pearson: HMRC do not collate figures for the total number of people giving using Gift Aid. However, Members: Correspondence donations using Gift Aid, and the amount of Gift Aid tax relief paid to charities over the last five years, are set out in the following table. Mr. Harper: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter of (a) 7 December Repayments of tax to 2009 and (b) 22 January 2010 from the hon. Member Amount donated using charities through Gift Aid for Forest of Dean on the Government’s proposals to Gift Aid (£ billion) (£ million) replace the existing taxation system affecting gambling, 2004-05- 2.8 626 reference FD4725. [320269] 2005-06 3.4 751 2006-07 3.8 830 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A reply was sent to the hon. 2007-08 4.1 898 Member on 9 January. 1335W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1336W

Non-domestic Rates: Ports There are currently six traveller sites subject to non- domestic rating. Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many port businesses in single port Revenue and Customs: Correspondence hereditaments were separately assessed for business rates in (a) 2000, (b) 2004, (c) 2005, (d) 2006, (e) 2007, (f) Mr. Winnick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2008 and (g) 2009; what consultation was held with when the Chief Executive, HM Revenue and Customs, each of them on the matter; and what statutory expects to reply to the letter of 1 February 2010 from requirements applied to such new assessments. [319443] the hon. Member for Walsall North; and for what reasons no initial acknowledgement of the letter was Ian Pearson: The Valuation Office Agency does not sent. [320348] hold separate lists of properties (hereditaments) attributable to smaller locations. The information requested could Mr. Timms: A reply was sent to the hon. Member on be compiled only at disproportionate cost. 2 March 2010. As he will be aware, however, prior to the ports review around 2,000 hereditaments within the 55 ports in HM Revenue and Customs apologise for the oversight England and Wales were on the rating lists with an in not issuing an acknowledgement. effective date of 1 April 2005. Following the review, the total increased by over 600 hereditaments. Revenue and Customs: Surveys Valuation officers have a statutory requirement to maintain accurate rating lists and occupiers affected by Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the the ports review were notified of the findings of the Exchequer what HM Revenue and Customs Customer review as and when each review was completed. Service Survey overview reports were produced for (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009; and where such reports Presbyterian Mutual Society are published. [312154]

Mark Durkan: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Timms: The Customer Service Survey overview Exchequer what progress has been made by the report for 2007 is available at: Ministerial Working Group on the Presbyterian http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/ Mutual Society. [318467] HM Revenue and Customs is currently finalising the report of the 2008-09 Customer Survey and will publish Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 24 February it on the Department’s website in due course. 2010]: The Ministerial Working Group on the Presbyterian Mutual Society (PMS) continues to investigate the Revenue and Customs: Television circumstances surrounding its collapse, to consider the losses incurred by its members and to consider what, if any, action can be taken to mitigate members’ losses, John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the particularly those hardest hit by the collapse. Exchequer how much HM Revenue and Customs has spent on sponsorship of the television programme The Public Sector Business Inspector. [319939] Mr. Timms: HMRC’s contribution to the series’ budget Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the is £370,000. This should provide good value for money Exchequer if he will place in the Library a copy of each in comparison with advertising alone. Total Place pilot report submitted to his Department. [319633] Taxation: Holiday Accommodation Mr. Byrne: The publication of documents submitted by the local authorities and their partners involved in Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the Total Place is a decision for them. However some of the Exchequer when he will report on the findings from the pilots have now made their February 2010 reports public, technical consultation on the proposed legislation on by either publishing on their own websites or the Total Furnished Holiday Lettings which closed on 26 Place website. February. [320577]

Rates and Rating: Caravan Sites Mr. Timms: There are no plans to publish a full report on the findings from the technical consultation Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the on the proposed legislation to repeal the Furnished Exchequer how many Traveller pitches are liable for (a) Holiday Lettings (FHL) rules, as none of the responses council tax and (b) business rates; and what estimate to this informal consultation identified any technical the Valuation Office Agency has made of the number of difficulties with the draft legislation which was published pitches which are not rated either for council tax or at the 2009 Pre-Budget Report. business rates. [319016] Some respondents identified specific points on which they would like more information about the effects of Ian Pearson: No data are available to differentiate the repeal. HMRC plan to issue further guidance to Traveller pitches from other caravan pitches treated as supplement the information provided in the technical dwellings for council tax purposes. note issued at the 2009 Pre-Budget Report. 1337W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1338W

Taxation: Overseas Income Departmental Buildings

Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister for the Exchequer if he will bring forward legislative proposals Cabinet Office how much her Department spent on to allow UK citizens to be taxed on their worldwide office refurbishments in each of the last 10 years. income; and if he will make a statement. [319850] [320508]

Mr. Timms: Individuals, including UK citizens, who Angela E. Smith: This information could be provided are resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the only at disproportionate cost. UK are liable to UK tax on their worldwide income. The Government have no plans to introduce legislation to make all UK citizens taxable on their worldwide Departmental Paper income. Martin Horwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Valuation Office Agency: Contracts Office what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products (A) her Department and (B) the Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the Prime Minister’s Office uses; and what the policy is of Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2010, each on the procurement of those materials. [320035] Official Report, column 522W, on the Valuation Office: contracts, how much the Valuation Office Agency Angela E. Smith: The Prime Minister’s Office is an spent on each of the listed suppliers in 2008-09. integral part of the Cabinet Office. [319644] Office Depot supplies the Cabinet Office with its paper and paper products. Ian Pearson: A list showing the amounts spent by the Valuation Office Agency on the suppliers who provided The majority of the Department’s paper usage relates goods and services to the Valuation Office Agency in to photocopying and printing, for which Evolve Everyday 2008-09 is being placed in the Library of the House. A4 and A3 80 gsm copier paper is used. These products are 100 per cent. recycled. Valuation Office Agency: North East The paper for photocopying and printing is ordered centrally; other types of paper products can be bought Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the as required by nominated individuals. Exchequer how many staff of the Valuation Office Agency worked in (a) the North East and (b) North Exports Lincolnshire in each year since 1997; and how many such staff were visually impaired in each of those years. [319447] Mr. David Hamilton: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the monetary value of goods and Ian Pearson: The Valuation Office Agency does not services exported from (a) Scotland and (b) the UK hold staff in post or disability data based upon the was in each of the last five years for which figures are North East and North Lincolnshire for each year since available. [319951] 1997. Ian Lucas: I have been asked to reply. The figures in the following table for exports of CABINET OFFICE goods have been taken from HM Revenue and Customs Regional Trade Statistics. Census: Sikhs £ billion Mark Pritchard: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet UK Scotland Office if she will meet representatives of Sikhs to 2004 190.5 11.9 discuss proposals for the inclusion of a Sikh category 2005 211.8 12.7 in the ethnic data collection within the 2011 National 2006 243.8 13.5 Census. [320257] 2007 219.9 13.7 2008 248.8 14.3 Angela E. Smith: The Office for National Statistics consulted widely in establishing the proposed content Office for National Statistics (ONS) data for UK of the 2011 Census, which included a public consultation exports of services for the same years are shown in the and consultation with Sikh representatives. Following following table on a Balance of Payments basis. consultation, and in accordance with the Census Act 1920, the proposed content was laid before Parliament UK (£ billion) in “The Census (England and Wales) Order 2009 in October 2009”. Parliament approved the Order, which 2004 112.9 came into force on 10 December. As the content of the 2005 119.2 2011 Census is now determined, it is not appropriate for 2006 134.2 me to meet Sikh representatives to discuss the inclusion 2007 150.6 of a Sikh category in the ethnicity question within the 2008 170.8 2011 Census. 1339W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1340W

The ONS does not produce comparable services trade Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls statistics for countries and regions of the UK; the within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Scottish Executive publishes some data as part of its I have asked the authority to reply. Global Connections Survey, available from: Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/ The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles monthly Economy/Exports counts of the number of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. Table 1 Honours shows the number of people, resident in the United Kingdom, claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) at the end of each quarter since April 2008. Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet National and local area estimates for many labour market Office with reference to the Prime Minister’s speech at statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Britain’s Everyday Heroes Book Launch of 24 July count are available on the NOMIS website at 2007, how much has been spent on the advertising http://www.nomisweb.co.uk campaign relating to the Good Neighbour MBE to Table 1: Number of persons claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance resident in date. [318358] the UK Seasonally adjusted: United Kingdom Thousand Tessa Jowell: £400,000 including VAT was spent on a regional advertising campaign in 2007-08 to encourage June 2008 843.3 nominations for people who were doing outstanding September 2008 956.7 service in their local community. The campaign focused December 2008 1,175.8 on four areas: Scotland, the North West, Yorkshire and March 2009 1,455.9 the Humber; and the West Midlands, areas which had June 2009 1,557.8 shown least awareness of the honours system. September 2009 1,626.6 December 2009 1,612.1 Hotels Source: Jobcentre Plus Administrative System Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Social Workers: Females Office pursuant to the answer of 29 January 2010, Official Report, column 1145W, on Government Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet departments: hotels, if she will place in the Library a Office what recent estimate she has made of the copy of the summary data on bookings made under the proportion of people employed in social care who are Expotel facility in respect of her Department in 2009. women. [320654] [318309] Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Angela E. Smith: The summary data for bookings within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. made through the Cabinet Office’s corporate contract I have asked the authority to reply. with Expotel contain information including their commercial rates which must be treated as commercial Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: in confidence. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking for the recent estimate of the proportion of people employed in Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet social care who are women. (320654) Office pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for For the period October-December 2009 it was estimated that Ruislip Northwood of 3 February 2010, Official 1.4 million women were employed in social care in the UK, the Report, column 410W, on hotels, which sections of her proportion of women employed in social care is 80.0 percent. Department made the 55 bookings for five star hotels; These estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey and which hotel was booked in each case. [318327] (LFS) and are not seasonally adjusted. The social care estimate was derived using the Standard Industrial Classification (SIC2007) Angela E. Smith: Cabinet Office is periodically requested codes: 87. Residential care activities and 88. Social work activities to answer questions which may relate to the involvement without accommodation. of sensitive work streams. In this instance the majority, As with any sample survey, the estimates provided are subject of the bookings are sensitive. to a margin of uncertainty. In order to safeguard the effectiveness of both the Trade Unions security arrangements in place, and those involved in such areas, it has been the practice of successive governments not to disclose specific information concerning Mr. Syms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office those involved or its associates. how many days staff of (a) her Department, (b) the Charity Commission and (c) the Central Office of This is in line with exemptions 1(a) and 7(b) as set out Information spent on trade union activity in the latest in Part II of the ‘Code of Practice on Access to Government year for which figures are available; and what recent Information’. estimate she has made of the annual cost to the public purse of such activity. [320619] Jobseeker’s Allowance Angela E. Smith: The following number of staff days Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet have been allocated as trade union facility time for Office how many people have claimed jobseeker’s 2009-10: allowance in each quarter since April 2008. [320172] (a) The Cabinet Office: 250 days. 1341W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1342W

(b) The Charity Commission: 188 days. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION (c) The Central Office of Information: 55 days. The annual cost of trade union activity for each organisation Palace of Westminster is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission for what reason the Carriage Gates exit to Unemployment the Palace of Westminster was closed on 1 February 2010. [319899]

Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Nick Harvey: At approximately 5.12 pm on 1 February, Office how many people were not in employment in a defect with the drop bolt on the Carriage Gates “exit each quarter since April 2008. [320175] gate” was discovered which left the gate unsecured when in the open position. Due to the risk of the gate swinging Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls closed against a vehicle or person the decision was within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. made to leave the gate in the closed and locked position. I have asked the authority to reply. Remedial work was carried out overnight and the gate Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: was returned to service. The “in gate” remained in use As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I throughout. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many people were not in employment in each quarter since Regional Committees April 2008. (320175 ) The table provided contains estimates of the number of people Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the hon. Member for not in employment. These estimates have been derived from the North Devon, representing the House of Commons figures published by the ONS in the monthly Labour Market Statistical Bulletin. Commission what the cost has been of the operation of each (a) regional grand committee and (b) regional As with any sample survey, the estimates provided are subject select committee since its inception. [319655] to a margin of uncertainty. Indications of the sampling variability of LFS aggregate estimates are provided in the Statistical Bulletin. Nick Harvey: The information requested is as follows: Number of people aged 16 and over, not in employment1 United Kingdom, seasonally adjusted (a) An estimate of the costs for regional grand Thousand committees to the end of February 2010 is given in the following table. Costs include hire of accommodation, April to June 2008 19,504 sound recording, police support, and travel and subsistence July to September 2008 19,722 for staff. No additional staffing costs were incurred as October to December 2008 19,895 no extra staff were engaged to work for regional grand January to March 2009 20,153 committees. April to June 2009 20,493 July to September 2009 20,599 Cost of regional grand October to December 2009 20,708 committees (£) 1 Unemployed people plus those who were economically inactive East of England 1,647 Source: East Midlands 2,858 ONS Labour Force Survey North East 4,238 North West 3,956 Voluntary Work South East 4,196 South West 6,850 Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet West Midlands 2,392 Office with reference to the Prime Minister’s speech at Yorkshire and Humber 749 Britain’s Everyday Heroes Book Launch of 24 July Total 26,886 2007, what steps have been taken to mark the contribution (b) An estimate of the costs of regional select committees of volunteers on 24 July each year. [318357] is given in the following table. Costs include staffing, hire of accommodation, transcription of evidence, printing, Angela E. Smith: The Government have used the 24 specialist advisers’ and witnesses’ expenses, and travel July to recognise and celebrate the efforts of those and subsistence for staff. Expenditure on staffing cannot making a difference in our communities. This has included be broken down by region as these committees were work with the Council on Social Action as well as supported from a pool of staff in the Department of voluntary and community groups to support and encourage Chamber and Committee Services. them to find more ways to celebrate all those acting for social good. Cost of regional select committees Events to mark the day have included the Catalyst up to end of February 2010 (£) Awards for people using technology to create social East of England 22 change, a reception at 10 Downing street for local East Midlands 16,787 heroes across the country and the creation of the National London 6 Talent Bank to act as an intermediary between employers North East 24,053 who are scaling back working hours and volunteering North West 13,904 organisations. 1343W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1344W

Cost of regional select committees £ Period up to end of February 2010 (£) Pot plants 120,162.29 11 months South East 13,125 1Excluding VAT. South West 26,752 Note: Of which £10,503.66 is attributable to the Department; and West Midlands 23,175 £9,658.63 is attributable to its agencies occupying parts of the HQ estate. Yorkshire and Humber 3,640 Staffing costs for all regions 311,400 The figures do not include costs from the Tribunal Total 432,865 Service, Her Majesty’s Court Service or the National Offender Management Service as no separate accounting code is used to record pot plants and to obtain this information would require a manual trawl of each JUSTICE Division at a disproportionate cost.

Convictions: Essex Driving Offences

Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people in (a) West Chelmsford constituency Mark Hunter: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) Essex have been convicted of offences (i) of Justice what the average (a) fine and (b) length of domestic burglary and (ii) related to drug offences in sentence for an offence of dangerous driving was in each year since 2005. [320573] each of the last 10 years. [320161]

Claire Ward: Information showing the number of Claire Ward: The requested information is provided persons found guilty at all courts for domestic burglary in the following table: and drugs offences in the Essex police force area from Average fine and average length of sentence for dangerous driving1, 2005 to 2008 (latest available) is shown in the following 1998 to 2008 table. Average fine Average custodial sentence Court proceedings data are not available at parliamentary amount (£) length (months) constituency level. 1998 353.50 7.7 Data for 2009 are planned for publication in the 1999 361.38 7.8 autumn, 2010. 2000 334.72 7.7 Persons found guilty at all courts for domestic burglary and drugs 2001 366.98 7.9 1, 2, 3 offences, in the Essex police force area, from 2005 to 2008 2002 374.60 8.3 Number 2003 386.79 8.5 3 Offence 2005 2006 2007 2008 2004 451.63 8.7 Burglary in 272 249 292 291 2005 437.90 8.5 a dwelling 2006 489.89 9.1 Drugs 774 742 570 979 2007 530.58 8.9 offences 2008 623.94 9.5 Total 1,046 991 862 1,270 1 Road Traffic Act 1988 S.2. Dangerous Driving. 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the 2 Excludes life and indeterminate sentences. principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Notes: has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most scale recording system. severe. 2. The data have been taken from the Ministry of Justice Court 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Proceedings database. The data are presented on the principal offence and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have basis. Where an offender has been sentenced for more than one been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by offence the principal offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken was imposed. Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are more offences the principal offence is the one for which the statutory taken into account when those data are used. maximum is most severe. 3 Excludes convictions for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Legal Aid Scheme: Negligence Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Departmental Plants Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much was spent on legal aid for medical David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for negligence cases in each of the last 10 years. [320008] Justice how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies has spent on pot plants in 2009-10. [319230] Bridget Prentice: Amount spent net of receipts on civil representation together with the value of claims Mr. Straw: The information requested is as follows submitted under legal help, under the clinical negligence and covers expenditure for pot plants at the Ministry of category of law, in each of the last 10 years is shown in Justice headquarters estate, for the period 2009-10. the following table. 1345W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1346W

Claire Ward: The Court Proceedings Database holds £ million information on defendants proceeded against, found Civil representation Legal help guilty and sentenced for criminal offences in England Value of claims Expenditure submitted and Wales. The Court Proceedings Database does not hold specific information on offences beyond descriptions 1999-2000 31.0 — provided by the statutes under which prosecutions are 2000-01 34.0 0.7 brought. Information available centrally on defendant’s 2001-02 33.7 0.8 proceeded against does not identify if the defendant is a 2002-03 30.4 1.0 prisoner. 2003-04 36.9 1.0 Prisons: Mobile Phones 2004-05 25.8 1.0 2005-06 28.5 0.9 2006-07 25.2 0.8 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 27.3 0.7 Justice whether his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated research into the means by which 2008-09 27.0 0.9 illicit mobile phones are brought into prisons. [320096] Civil representation includes work carried out under a legal aid certificate in matters that may or do proceed Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management to court. Net expenditure is net of funding that is Service (NOMS) has not commissioned specific research recovered, including from ‘settled cases’ where the other into the means by which illicit mobile phones are brought side (i.e. the non-legally aided client) agrees to pay costs. into prisons. However, phones enter prisons by the Legal help includes initial legal advice. The figures same routes as other contraband: visitors; over the wall; are only available from January 2000, when contracting post and parcels; reception; and remand prisoners and was introduced. The value quoted in the table is the staff. value of claims that providers have submitted. David Blakey CBE QPM DL, formerly Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary and Chief Constable of West Prisoners Mercia, was commissioned by the Director General of NOMS, at the Justice Secretary’s request, with undertaking Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice a review of the effectiveness of HM Prison Service’s (1) how many prisoners from (a) the UK, (b) Ireland measures for disrupting the supply of illicit drugs in and (c) other European Economic Area countries prisons. serving mandatory life sentences have been released in Mr. Blakey confirmed the five main routes for illicit each of the last five years; [320068] drugs to get into prisons, and noted that the use of each (2) how many offences of (a) murder, (b) rape, (c) route and the traffic flowing along it will alter from time other homicide, (d) attempted murder and (e) to time and from place to place. He recognised the link attempted rape had been committed by offenders on between the availability of phones in prisons and the End of Custody Licence. [320070] smuggling of illicit drugs. NOMS is determined to address the risks that mobile phones present to security Mr. Straw: The information requested is currently and to the safety of the public. Our strategy is to: being collated by officials. I will write to the hon. minimise the number of mobile phones entering prisons; Member once this work is complete and place a copy of find mobile phones that are smuggled into prisons; and the letter in the Library. disrupt mobile phones that we cannot find. Prisons: Overcrowding Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prisoners from (a) Ireland and (b) other European Economic Area countries with mandatory John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for life sentences are subject to probation supervision with Justice what mechanisms are planned to assist new private prisons to reduce levels of prison overcrowding. a residential address in the UK. [320069] [320094] Mr. Straw: This information is no longer held centrally Maria Eagle: Crowding levels are set and managed and to collate it now would require a manual checking carefully by the National Offender Management Service. of paper files held in local probation areas, which can Prison crowding occurs when the number of prisoners be undertaken only at a disproportionate cost. in an accommodation unit exceeds the certified normal The life licence lasts for the rest of the offender’s life. capacity (CNA) of that unit. A prison’s “certified normal Therefore, any life sentence prisoner residing in the UK accommodation” (CNA) is therefore its agreed capacity would be subject to immediate recall to custody if he when there is no crowding. A prison’s “operational breached the conditions of his life licence. capacity” is the maximum number of prisoners it is allowed to hold over and above CNA taking into account John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for control, security and the proper operation of regimes. Justice (1) how many prosecutions have been brought In addition operational managers must ensure that each following the discovery of pornographic or violent cell used for the confinement of prisoners has sufficient images on mobile phones seized from prisoners; heating, lighting and ventilation and is of adequate size [320101] for the number of prisoners to be held in it. Operational (2) whether any prisoner has been charged with capacity in prisons is set by Directors of Offender corrupting a public official during the last 12 months. Management on behalf of the Secretary of State in [320081] both publicly managed and contracted establishments. 1347W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1348W

The Government are committed to increasing SCOTLAND substantially the capacity of the prison estate and plans to provide 96,000 places by 2014. Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings On 27 April 2009 the Justice Secretary announced that the Ministry of Justice plans to build up to five new Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for 1,500 place prisons. The private and third sector will be Scotland how many (a) disciplinary and (b) capability invited to bid for the construction and operation of procedures have been (i) initiated and (ii) completed in these new prisons and places are currently planned to his Department in each of the last five years; how be provided on an uncrowded basis. much time on average was taken to complete each type of procedure in each such year; how many and what proportion of his Department’s staff were subject to each type of procedure in each such year; and how many and what proportion of each type of procedure Repossession Orders: Chelmsford resulted in the dismissal of the member of staff. [320625] Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many court orders for the repossession of homes Ann McKechin: No disciplinary or capability procedures in West Chelmsford constituency have been issued in have been initiated or completed in the Scotland Office each of the last five years. [320352] in each of the last five years. Departmental Paper Bridget Prentice: The following table shows the numbers of claims leading to orders being made for the repossession of property by mortgage lenders and landlords in the Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for West Chelmsford constituency in each of the last five Scotland what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) years. paper and (ii) paper products his Department uses; and what his Department’s policy is on the procurement of These figures represent the numbers of claims leading those materials. [320026] to orders being made. This is more accurate than the number of orders, removing the double-counting of Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office participates in a instances where a single claim leads to more than one contract, let by the Scottish Government, which prescribes order. It is also a more meaningful measure of the the purchase of paper, and paper products, from recycled number of homeowners who are subject to court sources. repossession actions. (a) Through this contract, the Scotland Office has both its These figures do not indicate how many properties paper and paper products supplied by Lyreco, with additional ad have actually been repossessed. Repossessions can occur hoc purchases made through Banner Business Supplies, RR without a court order being made, while not all court Donnelly and Piccolo Press. orders result in repossession. (b) Brands of paper and paper products used by the Scotland Office are Impega, Evolve, Pukka, Black N Red, Sinclair, Avery, Tables showing the numbers of possession claims Collins, Elba, Xerox, Banner, Kleenex and Scott Performance. leading to an order in each constituency of England and Wales and in each year since 2000 for mortgages Departmental Temporary Employment and 2003 for landlords have been placed in the Library of the House. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of mortgage1 and landlord2,3 possession claims leading to orders Scotland which companies his Department used to 4,5,6,7 made for properties in West Chelmsford constituency, 2005-09 provide temporary staff in 2008-09; how many temporary Mortgage possession Landlord possession staff were employed in that year; and what the monetary 2005 110 110 value of contracts with each such company in that year 2006 115 120 was. [320249] 2007 125 125 2008 145 150 Ann McKechin: Details of the companies used by the 2009 85 125 Scotland Office to provide temporary staff in 2008-09 Notes: are provided in the following table; 1. Includes all types of mortgage lenders. 2. Includes all types of landlord whether social or private. 3. Landlord actions include those made under both standard and accelerated Company Number of staff Cost (£) procedures. Landlord actions via the accelerated procedure enables the orders to be made solely on the basis of written evidence for shorthold tenancies, when Kelly’s 1 4,445.57 the fixed period of tenancy has come to an end. Eclipse 4 36,914.63 4. The number of claims that lead to an order includes all claims in which the Michael Page 1 18,971.55 first order, whether outright or suspended, is made during the period. 5. The court, following a judicial hearing, may grant an order for possession International immediately. This entitles the claimant to apply for a warrant to have the defendant evicted. However, even where a warrant for possession is issued, the parties can still negotiate a compromise to prevent eviction. Scottish Government 6. Includes outright and suspended orders, the latter being where the court grants the claimant possession but suspends the operation of the order. Provided the defendant complies with the terms of suspension, which usually require the David Mundell: To ask the Secretary of State for defendant to pay the current mortgage or rent instalments plus some of the Scotland how many meetings (a) he, (b) his predecessors accrued arrears, the possession order cannot be enforced. and (c) other Ministers in his Department had with 7. All figures are rounded to the nearest 5. Source: Scottish Executive Ministers in each month since May Ministry of Justice. 2007. [320375] 1349W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1350W

Mr. Jim Murphy: Ministers and officials have meetings (2007-13) and following the end of the programme with a wide variety of organisations in the public and period. The programme’s mid-term evaluation process private sectors as part of the process of policy development will be carried out during 2010. Some RDAs are also and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, undertaking targeted evaluation activity at a regional it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of level to help inform programme delivery. all such meetings. Air Pollution

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Illegal Immigrants has made of the level of (a) particulate and (b) nitrous oxide emissions in each of the last five years. Mr. Syms: To ask the Chairman of the Public [320340] Accounts Commission how many staff the National Audit Office has appointed who were later discovered Jim Fitzpatrick: Estimates of the UK emissions for a to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320438] range of air pollutants are submitted annually to the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe’s Mr. Alan Williams: The National Audit Office has Convention on Long Range Transboundary Air Pollution. not appointed any staff since 2005 later discovered to be The following table shows the emission estimates for illegal immigrants. fine particles (PM2.5), coarse particles (PM10), nitrous Trade Unions oxide (N2O) and nitrogen oxides (NOx) in each of the last five years for which data are available.

Mr. Syms: To ask the Chairman of the Public Pollutant 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Accounts Commission how many days staff of the Public Accounts Commission spent on trade union Fine 87 86 86 84 81 activity in the latest year for which figures are available; particles, PM (kt) and what recent estimate has been made of the annual 2.5 Coarse 141 138 139 137 133 [320672] cost to the public purse of such activity. particles,

PM10 (kt) Mr. Alan Williams: No days were spent on trade Nitrous 123 119 114 112 109 union activity in 2009. oxide, N2O (kt) Nitrogen 1,708 1,682 1,654 1,557 1,403

oxides, NOx ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS (kt) Agriculture: Subsidies Animal Feed Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what means Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department will ensure any outcomes arising from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent the Axis 1 subsidies meet the required goals; and how estimate he has made of the average fishmeal content those outcomes will be reported. [318781] of organic pig and poultry feed; [319569] (2) what assessment he has made of the contribution Dan Norris: Responsibility for delivery of Axis 1 of of fishmeal to the nutritional content of organic pig the Rural Development Programme for England (RDPE) and poultry feed; [319570] lies mainly with the regional development agencies (RDAs). (3) what recent research his Department has (a) In considering any application for support from the commissioned and (b) undertaken on the effect on the programme, RDAs apply rigorous appraisal processes organic classification of organic pig and poultry feed under which applications are assessed against a range of of the increase in fishmeal content. [319581] criteria and the extent to which they meet programme objectives and regional strategic priorities. Jim Fitzpatrick: EU rules for organic production As managing authority for the programme, DEFRA (contained in Council Regulation 834/2007 and Commission retains overall responsibility for oversight of delivery of Regulation 889/2008) require organic livestock to be fed the programme and the achievement of outcomes. DEFRA entirely on organically produced feed. However, until maintains regular formal and informal liaison with the 1 January 2012, they also permit 5 per cent. of the feed RDAs, who report frequently to DEFRA on the delivery for organic pigs and poultry to be composed of of the programme. Regular reports are also made to the conventionally produced materials when sufficient organic RDPE Programme Monitoring Committee, which feed cannot be obtained. This concession currently comprises stakeholder and delivery bodies. allows for difficulties with sourcing protein ingredients Monitoring and evaluation of the effectiveness with for organic pig and poultry feed to be accommodated. which the Axis 1 objectives are being met is carried out DEFRA’s Advisory Committee on Organic Standards in accordance with procedures that are set out in EU is investigating the role that fishmeal can play, as a legislation. These monitoring procedures include submission protein source for organic pig and poultry feed, when of an annual report by DEFRA. Programme evaluation the requirement for these animals to be given 100 per is undertaken at the mid-point of the programme period cent. organic feed begins on 1 January 2012. 1351W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1352W

Animal Welfare regulation. Within smoke control areas designated by local authorities, only boilers exempt by Parliament can Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for be installed. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what means In February, the Government launched a consultation1 his Department’s health and welfare strategy indicators on the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) which proposes will be reported on (a) where the species of animal measures to encourage the uptake of renewable energy concerned is not covered by a sector council established including biomass combustion. under the England Implementation Group (EIG) and Measures are included in the RHI requiring biomass (b) following the disbandment of the EIG. [318782] boilers, including boilers less than 20 Megawatt, to meet high standards of emission performance for particles Jim Fitzpatrick: Arrangements for monitoring the and nitrogen oxides (NO ), though not for nitrous Animal Health and Welfare Strategy are under review x oxide (N O). The effect of these measures will be to following the disbandment of the England Implementation 2 reduce the emission of particles from biomass boilers Group. A decision has not yet been made on whether by at least 60 per cent. for the same quantity of heat these indicators will continue to be updated in future. delivered, compared to the typical performance of current The last update of the Animal Health and Welfare wood fuelled boilers. Strategy Indicators was in autumn 2008 and is available on the DEFRA website. 1 http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/ uk_supply/energy_mix/renewable/policy/renewable_heat/ Biodiversity incentive/incentive.aspx

Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Departmental Sick Leave collection of data for the 2008 UK Biodiversity Action Plan progress report was completed; and when he David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for expects the report to be published. [318591] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff in his Department have had five or more periods of Huw Irranca-Davies: Experts were invited to collect sickness absence of less than five days in two or more and submit information between September and December of the last three years. [316465] 2008. This was used to assess the status of Biodiversity Action Plan Priority Species and Habitats. The assessment was published in April 2009, as part of the update to the Dan Norris: As at 31 December 2009, out of a total of UK Biodiversity Indicators in Your Pocket. This can be 10,092 staff in DEFRA and its agencies (excluding the found on the website of the Joint Nature Conservation Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Committee. Science (CEFAS)), 621 staff have had five or more periods of sickness absence of fewer than five days in Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for two or more of the last three years. This figure has been Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he based on the last three calendar years except for Rural plans to take to evaluate progress against the 2010 Payments Agency, which has used financial years. CEFAS targets for priority species and habitats under the UK is implementing a new management information system Biodiversity Action Plan. [318593] and its figure is currently unavailable. DEFRA and its agencies closely monitor sickness Huw Irranca-Davies: We are considering carefully absence in line with their sickness absence policies and with our devolved colleagues and statutory advisers the by benchmarking sick absence rates against Cabinet options for assessing progress against the 2010 targets Office figures for the civil service. Policies and good for priority species and habitats under the UK Biodiversity working practices are in place to reduce frequent short-term Action Plan. sick absences. These include facilitating timely employee Biofuels: Boilers access to occupational health advice, medical or wellbeing interventions. Additionally, managers hold return-to-work interviews to discuss employees’ reasons for absence, Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for including any work-related issues connected with their Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he absence. Where necessary, action plans will be agreed to has to (a) control and (b) reduce emissions of (i) improve employees’ attendance at work. particulates and (ii) nitrous oxide from biomass boilers of less than 20 megawatts. [320342] Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal Jim Fitzpatrick: Pollution emissions from biomass boilers of less than 20 Megawatts thermal input are regulated under the Clean Air Act 1993, unless they are Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State burning waste material at greater than 400 kW thermal for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to input, or covered by a permit required under the waste the answer of 29 January 2010, Official Report, column incineration directive (2000/76/EC) depending on the 1135W, on Audit Commission: internet, if he will place nature of the biomass being burnt. in the Library a copy of the latest data on which local The existing controls for the remaining appliances authorities collect residual household waste less than arise from the Clean Air Act. Local authorities have the once a week according to records held by (a) his power to approve the grit and dust arrestment equipment Department and (b) the Waste and Resources Action fitted to appliances over a certain size as set out in Programme. [319744] 1353W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1354W

Dan Norris: Data held by DEFRA and the Waste Fisheries and Resources Action Programme showing which local authorities in England collected residual household waste Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for less than once a week in 2008-09 have been placed in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent research Library. his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) undertaken on the effects on aquatic reefs and plants from trawling; Eels and if he will make a statement. [319571] Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA does not currently fund Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for any research aimed specifically at examining the damage Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will assess caused by trawling on aquatic reefs and plants. Earlier the effect on small-scale hydroelectric schemes of the research has however helped to establish the extent to obligation to provide eel passes. [319946] which fishing practices such as trawling had on the wider benthic community. Huw Irranca-Davies: Eel passes will be required wherever eels are present but are prevented from upstream migration; This early work has enabled us to be better informed the Environment Agency will undertake an exercise to about how we might help protect sensitive habitats such identify such locations during 2010. as reefs. DEFRA is currently funding a research project in Lyme Bay to examine how the seabed recovers within The Environment Agency estimates that approximately a Marine Protected Area. No scallop dredging or bottom 500 schemes (involving between 10-20 eel passes per trawling is allowed and the project aims to monitor the scheme) will be required. Eel passes generally cost effects of the MPA, including the recovery of benthic significantly less than those required to enable the migration communities. of salmonids and can be in the order of between £500 to £2,000 per pass. However, where other substantial Reefs are one of the habitats listed for which Special works are ongoing at the same time, the additional cost Areas of Conservation (SAC) are required to be designated of building an eel pass or other easement can be much under the EC habitats directive. Between 2004 and 2009 reduced. A separate assessment of the effect on small-scale the Joint Nature Conservation Committee carried out a hydroelectric schemes of the requirement to provide eel number of surveys in UK offshore waters to identify passes has not been made. reef sites suitable for SAC designation. Details of these surveys can be found at: http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-4544 Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 To date 37 SACs with reef as a qualifying habitat have been designated, with further sites subject to consultation or further analysis of data. By the end of 2012 it is Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for estimated that around 36 per cent. of the UK reef Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his habitat will be protected by European designations. Department plans to amend the Environmental Permitting You will be interested to note that Charting Progress Regulations; and if he will make a statement. [319525] 2, which is due to be published in July 2010, has examined both the state and impact from pressures Dan Norris: The Environmental Permitting (England such as fishing on different components of the marine and Wales) Regulations 2010 are currently before Parliament ecosystem, within the marine environment, to provide and are anticipated to come into force on 6 April 2010. an overall assessment of the UK’s seas. These regulations form part of the second phase of Further details of DEFRA’s current research programme environmental permitting, which will amend and expand can be found by following this link: the current regime. http://randd.defra.gov.uk/ and carrying out a word search (for example ’fisheries’). Fish: Conservation Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Food and Rural Affairs if he will have discussions with has made of the number of non-target species accidentally ministerial colleagues on the public procurement of (a) caught as a result of industrial fishing techniques in (a) fish and (b) shellfish to increase the proportions procured 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [319572] from sustainable sources. [318899] Huw Irranca-Davies: Industrial fishing is the term Huw Irranca-Davies: My colleague, the Minister for applied to fishing activity where the catch is intended Food, Farming and Environment (Jim Fitzpatrick) has for processing into fish meal and oil rather than for spoken or written to Ministers with responsibility for human consumption. Industrial fishing uses smaller procurement to encourage them to procure food that meshed nets than human consumption fisheries as they has been sourced sustainably which includes the are targeting fish which are small even when fully grown procurement of fish and shellfish. The latest report on and this will inevitably lead to the capture of small, food used in Government Departments shows that eight often immature, individuals of other species. Departments purchased 100 per cent. of their fish from In European waters, industrial fishing is undertaken sustainable sources and for a further Department the for blue whiting, Norway pout, sandeel and sprat. The figure was 99 per cent. We are also considering the case Norway pout and sandeel fisheries are exclusively industrial for introducing a minimum mandatory buying standard and are conducted in the North sea and Skagerrak, for central Government for food and catering, including while the blue whiting fishery is only partly industrial for the procurement of seafood from sustainable sources. and considerably more geographically widespread. 1355W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1356W

Fish stocks in EU waters are assessed by the International Fuel Oil: Recycling Council for the Exploration of the Sea (ICES). There are linkages between sandeel fishing and other species Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for through by-catch, although scientific advice indicates Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his that by-catches of prime human consumption species Department’s policy is on encouraging the re-use of within the sandeel fishery are relatively small compared waste oils. [319526] to the fisheries for human consumption. ICES annually calculates industrial by-catches; i.e. Dan Norris: DEFRA’s policies on waste oils are set landings of non-target species, for whiting and haddock out in Waste Strategy for England 2007. We are currently in the North sea. Landings of North sea whiting from considering the responses to the stage one consultation the industrial fisheries were 1,230 tonnes and 1,020 on the transposition of the revised Waste Framework tonnes in 2007 and 2008, respectively. Landings of Directive (2008/98/EC), including the provisions in article North sea haddock from the industrial fisheries were 48 21 on waste oils. tonnes and 199 tonnes in 2007 and 2008, respectively. Incinerators ICES has yet to analyse the data for 2009 and hence results will not be available until later in 2010. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s policy on mass-burn incineration of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent household waste is. [319619] research his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) undertaken on the effect on the level of fish stocks Dan Norris: Government policy is to manage waste of industrial fishing techniques; and if he will make a as far up the waste hierarchy as possible—with energy statement. [319573] from waste ranking higher than landfill but below waste prevention, re-use, and recycling. The Government’s view of incineration and similar technologies is that Huw Irranca-Davies: The information is as follows: they form just one among several approaches, all of (a) My Department and the Scottish Executive have, which are needed for sustainable and effective waste in the past, commissioned research into industrial fishing. management. Although there are currently no specific projects being It is recognised that there will always be some waste undertaken, the UK Government continue to support streams that cannot be re-used, recycled or composted work on sandeels and their predators. and recovering energy from that waste, including by Most recently, a major study by the Centre for incineration, results in less greenhouse gas emissions Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science which compared to the alternative of landfill. Producing energy investigated the direct and indirect impacts of the sandeel from this waste, which would otherwise have gone to fishery off the coast of eastern England was completed landfill, not only contributes to reducing carbon emissions, in March 2007. In addition, the Scottish Executive but also counts towards our renewable energy targets by supported an EU-funded project: ‘Interactions Between displacing fossil fuel power generation. the Marine Environment, Predator Implications for The choice in technology needs to reflect local Sustainable Sandeel Fisheries’, which concluded before circumstances, with reference to the relevant waste strategies 2007. and plans, so that proposed waste incineration plants are of an appropriate type and scale and do not prejudice (b) On the effect on the level of fish stocks of the achievement of local, regional or national waste industrial fishing techniques, the UK, through the Scottish management targets. Government continues to support work on sandeels and their predators, through monitoring of the North Moorland: Environment Protection east UK area closure. Local studies of cod, haddock and whiting predation on sandeels before and after the closure was introduced in 2000, found no evidence of Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for an effect, although the reduction in fishing mortality Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his did lead to an increase in the abundance of age one and Department is taking to protect wildlife in areas of older sandeels. The lack of a fishing effect probably had heather moorland. [320338] more to do with the difference in the age of sandeel taken by these predators and the fishery. Huw Irranca-Davies: Natural England is taking action to protect and manage heather moorland habitats and The cod, haddock and whiting in this study mostly is also taking additional steps to recover threatened fed on young sandeels of the year, whereas the fishery species. A total of 354,000 hectares of heather moorland targeted age one and older sandeels. The local abundance (comprising blanket bog and upland heathlands) have of cod and haddock in the study-region reflected wider been designated as Sites of Special Scientific Interest North sea wide trends, suggesting that local conditions (SSSIs). On 1 March 2010, 91 per cent. of these SSSIs were not determining abundance. Had there been significant were in favourable or recovering condition (up from numbers of large cod and haddock in the region, then about 57 per cent. in September 2006). 95 per cent. of competition between the sandeel fishery and these species eligible heather moorland is under agri-environment may have been more important, since the size and age of agreement. sandeels taken is limited by predator size. In addition, about 40 heather moorland species have The UK will continue to monitor industrial fisheries been listed as species of principal importance for the in EU waters. conservation of biological diversity under section 41 of 1357W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1358W the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act Renewable Energy: Fuel Oil 2006. Many of these species, including hen harrier, black grouse and juniper, benefit from targeted recovery Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for plans. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions his Department has had with representatives Nanotechnology of the waste oil regeneration industry; and if he will make a statement. [319845] Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many entries have been Dan Norris: We continue to maintain regular contact registered under the voluntary reporting scheme for with the waste oil industry on a variety of issues affecting nanomaterials since its inception. [319921] the management of waste oil. Dan Norris: A trial of the UK’s voluntary reporting Representatives of the waste oil processing industry scheme for engineered nanomaterials was carried out are members of the Stakeholder Group relating to the between September 2006 and September 2008. DEFRA transposition of the revised Waste Framework Directive received 13 submissions to the scheme during this period. (2008/98/EC), including the provisions in Article 4 on Although the scheme has now officially closed submissions the waste hierarchy and Article 21 on waste oils. They are still accepted. were also involved in the Hazardous Waste Steering Group, which helped advise on proposals for a Strategy Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, for Hazardous Waste Management in England. Food and Rural Affairs whether the Government plan The Hazardous Waste Steering Group and the Waste to bring forward proposals for a mandatory reporting Framework Stakeholder Group last met on 29 September scheme for nanomaterials used in consumer products. and 11 November 2009 respectively. [319922] Renewable Energy: Waste Dan Norris: As stated in the Government’s June 2009 response to the Royal Commission for Environmental Pollution’s December 2008 Report ″Novel Materials in Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment: The Case of Nanotechnology″,we Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recognise that, given increasing interest in this area, discussions the joint working group on energy from additional work to boost our understanding is required. waste policy plans to hold on regulatory barriers to Work is currently ongoing to define in more detail how energy from waste deployment; [319330] any successor to the voluntary reporting scheme could (2) who has attended each meeting of the joint effectively be introduced, including whether or not it working group on energy from waste policy; [319331] should be mandatory. (3) which departments have officials on the joint working group on energy from waste policy. [319332] Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Government plan to Dan Norris: The Energy from Waste Project will publish its Nanotechnology Strategy. [319923] consider the main factors affecting the deliverability of Dan Norris: The Government intend to publish their energy from waste plant. The project includes five Nanotechnologies Strategy during March 2010. workstreams on: (i) Potential volumes of waste that could be used to produce Origin Marking: Israel energy (ii) Technology choice Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment (iii) Location and scale of plants, including planning considerations he has made of the effect of the European Court of (iv) Financial issues affecting delivery of energy from waste Justice’s ruling on goods from Jewish settlements in the plant occupied West Bank on his Department’s policies on (v) Communications. food imports. [320608] The Energy from Waste Project Board held its first meeting on 27 January, 2010 with officials from the Jim Fitzpatrick: The European Court of Justice’s following Government Departments and agencies attending: recent ruling in the case of C-386/08 (Brita-Gmbh) DEFRA concerned the procedures which a EU member state’s customs authority should follow in a case where imported Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) goods are shown as being of Israeli origin, and preferential Department for Transport (DfT) customs tariff treatment is claimed under the EC-Israel Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG) Association Agreement, but where there is reason to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) suppose that the goods in question did in fact originate The Environment Agency. in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs). The Energy from Waste Project Board includes officials This ruling will have no effect on DEFRA’s policies from the following Government Departments: on food imports originating in the OPTs, since the DEFRA Court’s ruling confirms the correctness of the procedures DECC that are already operated in the UK by HM Revenue and Customs. There are no inconsistencies between the DfT court’s ruling and the technical guidance concerning CLG the labelling of produce grown in the OPTs that was BIS issued by DEFRA on 10 December 2009. HM Treasury. 1359W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1360W

River Severn Jim Fitzpatrick: The Meat Hygiene Service (MHS), an Executive agency of the Food Standards Agency, Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for enforces the Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research Regulations 1995 in slaughterhouses on behalf of DEFRA. his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) Animal cruelty within a slaughterhouse is not tolerated evaluated on the effects of the dam on the River Severn by the MHS who take appropriate enforcement action at Shrewsbury on the flow of the River Severn and its if there are breaches of animal welfare legislation. tributaries in Montgomeryshire; and if he will make a Animal Aid passed to the MHS undercover footage statement. [320167] taken in four abattoirs during 2009, where CCTV footage appeared to show evidence of animal cruelty by slaughterers Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency, in at two slaughterhouses. In one of the slaughterhouses a conjunction with Shropshire council, has assessed the slaughterer has had his licence revoked and the case has potential benefits of combining a proposed road scheme been referred for prosecution along with the operator of with a flood storage area and dam in Shrewsbury to the plant. In the second two, slaughterers have had their reduce flood risk along the River Severn. licences revoked and a third slaughterer has been suspended. The case has been referred for investigation with a view The aim was to discover whether the combination of to prosecution. both schemes could make the flood storage area and dam more viable. The work carried out has shown that Trees: Urban Areas there are no financial savings in having a combined scheme and there are no current plans to progress the Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State construction of a dam in Shrewsbury. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what A hydraulic river model was constructed as part of estimate the Forestry Commission has made of the (a) this work and a copy of the report has been placed in initial and (b) maintenance cost of planting and the Library of the House. maintenance of an urban tree. [319618]

Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection Huw Irranca-Davies: The Forestry Commission in England has made an estimate of the cost of planting a tree in an urban site in London as part of the London Paddy Tipping: To ask the Secretary of State for Trees and Woodlands Grant Scheme. This varies from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to between £250 for planting in a grass verge to £450 for publish the draft statement setting out the principles of planting in paved areas. Protective guarding of a tree an ecologically coherent network of marine protected can add £130. Maintaining a tree for the first three areas under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009; years, which includes watering, general maintenance and if he will make a statement. [319435] and formative pruning is estimated at £300. Huw Irranca-Davies: The written statement to fulfil Waste Disposal the requirement in Section 123(6) of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 will be laid before Parliament Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State by the Secretary of State on 10 or 11 March 2010. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in which The statement will set out the principles and other Government Office regions (a) regional waste awareness matters that Government will follow when designating initiatives and (b) waste prevention networks are in a network of Marine Protected Areas (MPAs). They operation; and what funding has been provided for such include: the seven principles of ecological coherence activity in each region in the latest period for which which will underpin the network design; Government’s figures are available. [319622] commitment to an ecologically coherent network of MPAs by 2012; social and economic considerations; Dan Norris: Waste awareness and prevention initiatives protection levels for MPAs including sites to allow run in each Government office region. These vary widely recovery of damaged or diminished features; and links across the country from those run solely for local authorities with other legislation such as the marine strategy framework to arrangements covering a broader range of partners; directive. the funding arrangement are equally varied. More details are available from individual Government offices. The Government believe the ecologically coherent network of MPAs created through the Act will represent The Government-funded Waste and Resources Action a significant step towards our vision for clean healthy, Programme (WRAP) delivers the national ‘Love Food safe, productive and biologically diverse oceans and Hate Waste’ campaign. Information and resources are seas, and increase resilience to climate change. available for use by local government at a regional and local level as part of this campaign. In addition WRAP has provided advisory support to a number of regional Slaughterhouses waste prevention initiatives through its local authority support programme. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Waste Disposal: EC Action assessment he has made of the investigations conducted by Animal Aid into practices at slaughterhouses; and if Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State he will take steps to ensure that those establishments for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he adhere to high animal welfare practice standards. plans to publish the final version of the End of Waste [320405] Protocol; and if he will make a statement. [319086] 1361W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1362W

Dan Norris: On 23 and 26 November 2009 the European The source of the data is AEA/Department of Energy Commission and Austria respectively commented under and Climate Chance (DECC). Article 8(2) of the Technical Standards Directive on the The following table shows the Department’s latest draft end-of-waste protocol for fuel produced from forecasts for total CO2 emissions from all flights departing waste lubricating oil that the UK notified under Article 8(1) from UK airports in 2009, 2012 and 2015. of the directive. The UK responded to both sets of comments on 15 February 2010. In doing so, it was Total CO2 (million tonnes) confirmed that the UK intended to adopt the end-of-waste protocol on the basis notified to the Commission on 2009 39.2 27 August 2009 and that the UK would communicate 2012 43.5 the definitive text to the Commission in compliance 2015 46.1 with Article 8(3) of the directive. The Environment Notes: Agency expects to publish the definitive text before the 1. Data are for UK departures only (both international and domestic). end of March 2010. 2. These forecasts refer to the central demand scenario and capacity scenario s12s2, as presented in UK Air Passenger Demand and CO2 Forecasts, January 2009. Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations 3. These CO2 forecasts include freight, APU and a residual adjustment to ensure consistency with the DECC outturn estimate. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department does not collect or forecast EU level Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to CO2 emissions data. Emissions inventories for other EU his Department’s press release of 14 July 2009, on countries are available on the UNFCCC website. This surface water draining charges, what system of surface can be found at: water charging for voluntary groups is in operation in http://unfccc.int/national_reports/items/1408.php each water company area. [318332]

Huw Irranca-Davies: Four of the 10 water and sewerage Capita Group companies in England and Wales—Northumbrian Water, Severn Trent Water, United Utilities and Yorkshire Water—charge non-household customers for surface Mr. Touhig: To ask the Minister of State, Department water drainage according to impermeable site area. The for Transport on how many occasions Capita Group remaining six—Anglian Water, Southern Water, South plc tendered for contracts let by his Department in each West Water, Thames Water, Welsh Water and Wessex of the last five years; how many such tenders were Water—charge for surface water drainage according to successful; how much his Department paid to Capita the rateable value of a premises and/or include the Group plc for the execution of contracts in each such charge in their standing charges and/or volumetric charges. year; how many contracts which terminate after 2010 Capita Group plc hold with his Department; and what the monetary value is of all outstanding contracts between his Department and Capita Group plc. [303160] TRANSPORT Aviation: Exhaust Emissions Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not hold centrally information relating to tendering activity, Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department contracts awarded and the values of such contracts and for Transport what assessment he has made of the likely this could be provided only at disproportionate costs. effect on airline profits on the inclusion of aviation in However, following a search across the Department the EU Emissions Trading Scheme. [320406] and its Executive agencies, it is known that Capita Group plc tendered and were awarded the following Paul Clark: A review of the available evidence found contracts/framework agreements: that, while some studies were suggesting that airlines could potentially pass on 100 per cent. of the costs of Number of contracts EU ETS allowances to passengers, other studies suggested Number of tenders awarded that the level of cost pass on would depend on a number of factors, such as the level of competition faced on 2005 4 2 individual routes. 2006 10 8 2007 12 8 The impact on airline profits in practice will only 2008 12 8 become apparent after aviation has joined the EU ETS from 2012. 2009 7 5 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made Departmental Buildings of the level of (a) UK and (b) EU carbon emissions from aviation in (i) 2004, (ii) 2006 and (iii) 2009; and Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, what estimate he has made of each such level in (A) Department for Transport how much his Department 2012 and (B) 2015. [320576] spent on office refurbishments in each year since its inception. [320510] Paul Clark: UK aviation carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in 2004 and 2006 can be found at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/climate _change/ Chris Mole: The information requested can be provided gg_emissions/uk_emissions/2008_final/2008_final.aspx only at disproportionate cost. 1363W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1364W

Departmental Internet Directly Operated Railways and East Coast Main Line Company Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many designs for its website his Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, Department has commissioned since 2005. [318642] Department for Transport (1) how much has been paid by (a) and (b) East Coast Trains for the use of office Chris Mole: The Department last commissioned a space in his Department since July 2009; [319598] new design for its corporate website: www.dft.gov.uk (2) for how long he expects to let office space in his Department to (a) Directly Operated Railways and in 2005. The design work was commissioned as part of (b) East Coast Trains. [319600] a larger project to implement a new Content Management System. Chris Mole [holding answer 1 March 2010]: From the Departmental Legal Costs 6 May, Directly Operated Railways will move from Department for Transport premises to offices in Kemble Pete Wishart: To ask the Minister of State, Street, London. In relation to the period up to this date, Department for Transport how much his Department the value of use of office space in the Department for spent on external legal advice in (a) 2008 and (b) Transport was taken into account when Directly Operated 2009. [318798] Railways’ grant was set on creation. Chris Mole: In the past two financial years the In relation to East Coast I refer the hon. Gentleman Department for Transport (including its agencies) has to my answer of 25 February 2010, Official Report, spent the following on external legal services: column 666W. 2007-08: £3,297,415.19 2008-09: £12,410,668.11 The reason for the significant difference in spend from 2007-08 to 2008-09 is due to change to the Driving Tests: Motorcycles Department’s accounting system in 2008 which culminated in some historical data not being available. Recovery of this data could have been obtained only at disproportionate Mark Williams: To ask the Minister of State, cost. Transport what casual sites for motorcycle testing have been brought into use since April 2009; and what the Departmental Paper cost was of making each such site suitable for motorcycle testing. [320266] Martin Horwood: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what (a) suppliers and (b) Paul Clark: No casual sites have been brought into brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products his use since April 2009. There were 16 Vehicle and Operator Department uses; and what his Department’s policy is Services Agency (VOSA) and six casual sites available on the procurement of those materials. [320025] to use when the new motorcycling test was implemented on 27 April 2009. Of these sites, 13 VOSA and four Chris Mole: The Department for Transport and its casual sites remain operational with five now having Executive Agencies use the following suppliers and been replaced by permanent multi-purpose test centres brands of paper and paper products: (MPTCs). Suppliers: Other VOSA and casual sites will be replaced as Antalis, Banner Business Services, Howard Smith Paper, James permanent MPTCs become operational locally. McNaughton, Premier Paper Group, Robert Home Group, Taylor Brothers, The Paper Company, Unicorn Office Products, United The total cost of preparing and maintaining the and Viking Direct VOSA and casual sites for use for module one motorcycle Brands of office paper for printing and copying: testing is forecast to be £2.5 million. Banner, EP4, Evolve, Premier Paper, Securi Monde, Steinbeis, Xerox Brands of paper for printed publications: 9 Lives, Cacoon, Green Coat, Evolution, Revive, Driving: Licensing Brands of paper products: 3M, 5 star, Adare, Avery, Basildon Bond, Cambridge, Conqueror, Chris Huhne: To ask the Minister of State, FT Print, Graffico, HP, Jiffy, Kleenex, MBA, New Guardian, Niceday, NP, Office Depot, Oxford, Paragon, Post-it, Q connect, Department for Transport how many people (a) over RR Donnelly, Sasco, SMI, Stralfors, Taylor Brothers, Unicorn and (b) under retirement age in each police force area Office, Unique and Viking. have had their driving licence withdrawn in each of the The Department conducts its procurement in accordance last five years. [320130] with UK Government’s value for money policies and principles, utilising collaborative arrangements where Paul Clark: The information requested is not readily these are available and in accordance with the legal and available and would incur disproportionate costs to regulatory framework. Where possible, the Department gather. However, the following table provides the number purchases recycled products that meet the current of people (a) over and (b) at or below 65, whose Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs driving licence has been withdrawn for the reasons (DEFRA) ’Buy Sustainable Quick Wins’ guidance. quoted. 1365W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1366W

Medically withdrawn/refused Disqualified Revoked Total (a) (b) (a) (b) (a) (b) (a) (b)

2009 9,979 15,632 2,658 132,945 740 73,386 13,377 221,963 2008 9,328 12,718 3,297 153,787 805 88,230 13,430 254,735 2007 8,833 11,038 3,894 168,954 640 71,916 13,367 251,908 2006 7,757 9,588 4,152 174,695 436 61,692 12,345 245,975 2005 6,070 7,351 2,534 79,388 306 33,31 1 8,910 120,050

Exhaust Emissions the number of people killed or seriously injured on the local highway network decreased by 13 per cent. in the Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, period 2001-07. Department for Transport what estimate he has made In 2002, North East Lincolnshire council received a of the total carbon dioxide emissions from shipping in total of £719,000 from the Department’s Urban and the UK in the last 10 years; and what projection he has Rural Bus Challenge funds to establish the Phone ‘n’ made of such emissions from shipping in the UK in the Ride community travel initiative. Phone ‘n’ Ride is a next (a) 10, (b) 20 and (c) 50 years. [317027] demand-responsive bus service for those members of the community who have difficulty accessing employment, education, healthcare and leisure services due to a lack Mr. Khan: Shipping carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions for the last 10 years can be found at: of transport. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/climate _chanqe/ In 2005, North East Lincolnshire council submitted a gg_emissions/uk_emissions/2008_final/2008_final.aspx successful bid to the Department for ‘Kickstart’ revenue The source of the data is AEA/Department of Energy funding of improvements to the Grimsby and Cleethorpes and Climate Change (DECC). bus network. The £523,000 award facilitated the introduction of high-frequency services on routes 13 Forecasts of carbon dioxide emissions from UK domestic and 14, linking the area’s main residential estates with shipping in 2010, 2015, 2020 and 2022 were included in Grimsby and Cleethorpes town centres. It was accompanied the Department for Transport’s “Carbon Pathways by an investment of almost £2 million by Stagecoach in Analysis” report. This report is available to download 23 new low-floor buses for the service. from the Department’s website at Following a successful bid by North East Lincolnshire http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/analysis.pdf council and First TransPennine Express, it was announced Projections of reportable carbon dioxide emissions in April 2006 that Grimsby Town station would receive from international shipping for all years between now £53,000 to improve disabled access and facilities. The and 2022 were included in HM Treasury’s “Building a improvements, funded as part of the Department’s Access low-carbon economy” report. This report is available for All Strategy, include an enlarged waiting room, from the HM Treasury website at improved flooring and lighting, and a new ticket window. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/Budget2009/bud09_ carbon_budgets_736.pdf Local Government: Statistics

Grimsby Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what performance (a) Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, indicators and (b) datasets outside the National Department for Transport if he will set out, with Indicator Set local authorities are regularly required to statistical information related as directly as possible to provide to his Department. [319613] Great Grimsby constituency, the effects of his Department’s policies on that constituency since 1997. Mr. Khan: None. [320186] M40: Repairs and Maintenance Mr. Khan: Our policies and legislation since 1997 have provided a new framework benefitting all local Tony Baldry: To ask the Minister of State, Department transport authorities. The framework gives greater certainty for Transport what assessment he has made of the likely of funding, while encouraging more strategic transport effects of the implementation of his Department’s policy planning with local consultation, and increasing local on the North West Bicester eco-town on the timing of flexibility and discretion over resources. It has been the allocation of funding for improvement made by the accompanied by a significant increase in capital funding: Highways Agency on junction 9 of the M40 motorway. support from the Department for transport investment [318982] in North East Lincolnshire, within which transport authority Great Grimsby falls, has more than doubled Chris Mole: I recognise that current capacity constraints over the last decade. at junction 9 are directly inhibiting the wider potential Investment in North East Lincolnshire council’s local for growth within the Bicester area. transport plan has delivered a number of improvements I wrote to the leader of Oxfordshire county council in to the quality, safety and accessibility of the local November 2009 confirming that the Highways Agency transport network. Between 2004 and 2008, bus patronage is committed to an interim scheme, commencing in the per head of population increased by 19 per cent. and spring of 2010-11, to improve the movement of traffic 1367W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1368W onto the A34 southbound from the M40 southbound at Motorways: Accidents junction 9. The Department for Transport remains committed to deliver the proposed medium-term solution Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, subject to the outcome of any forthcoming spending Department for Transport how many accidents have review. taken place between motorway junctions where there is hard shoulder running in each of the last five years. My officials are working closely with Cherwell district [319048] council and Oxfordshire county council in developing the transport aspects of their proposals and a planning Chris Mole: Hard shoulder running was introduced application is expected to be submitted shortly. I expect on the M42 between J3A and J7 on 12 September 2006 that priority will be given to more sustainable transport and normally operates at peak travel times or when options, as set out in the Planning Policy Statement on there is an incident. eco-towns published in July 2009, which is consistent The accident data for the M42 J3a to 7 cover all with the key aims set out in “Developing a Sustainable personal injury accidents for the period to the end of Transport System”. 2008 and are as follows:

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

M42 J3a-J4 11 9 4 4 10 M42 J4-J5 15 10 12 13 14 M42 J5-J6 18 23 20 17 9 M42 J6-J7 12 7366 Total 56 49 39 40 39

More significantly the rate of personal injury accidents There are several additional areas for which it is not has dropped from 5.1 per month to 1.8 since the possible to disaggregate costs including power, sweeping implementation of this scheme. and salting of the emergency refuge areas. These costs are considered to be negligible. Motorways: Road Traffic Motorways: Standards Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, of the cost to the public purse of hard shoulder Department for Transport what the average delay in running in the latest period for which figures are minutes has been between motorway junctions where available. [319049] there is hard shoulder running in each of the last five years. [319047] Chris Mole: The estimated cost to the Highways Agency of hard shoulder running between Junctions 3a Chris Mole: Hard shoulder running was introduced and 7 on the M42 is associated with the following four on the M42 between Junction 3A and Junction 7 on 12 main areas of additional activity and cost. September 2006 and normally operates at peak travel Additional advanced motorway indicators over the hard times or when there is an incident. shoulder—estimated cost of annual maintenance is £25,000. In measuring delay the Highways Agency defines a Fixed CCTV cameras to monitor the hard shoulder—estimated costs of annual maintenance is £80,000. free flow theoretical reference speed. For the M42, this is approximately 66 mph. Delay is measured as the Control room staff to open, close and monitor use of hard shoulder running—estimated annual cost is £38,000. actual measured speed of traffic compared to this reference speed and is quoted as the delay per 10 vehicle kms. Additional traffic officer patrols to undertake pre-opening inspections of the hard shoulder and manage incidents—estimated The following table shows the results for the M42 annual cost of staff and vehicles is £66,000. Junctions 3A to 7 for the last five years.

Delay per 10 vehicle km Minutes 2005 total 2006 total 2007 total 2008 total 2009 total

M42 between M42 J3A and M42 J3 (LM503) 0.33 0.42 0.35 0.44 0.43 M42 between M42 J3 and M42 J3A (LM504) 0.53 0.67 0.51 0.64 0.42 M42 between M42 J5 and M42 J4 (LM505) 1.00 1.36 1.58 1.33 1.04 M42 between M42 J4 and M42 J5 (LM506) 1.38 1.65 1.38 1.46 1.14 M42 between M42 J6 and M42 J5 (LM507) 1.26 1.56 1.67 1.38 1.41 M42 between M42 J5 and M42 J6 (LM508) 1.31 1.56 1.43 1.32 1.06 M42 between M42 J7 and M42 J6 (LM509) 1.58 1.69 1.54 1.46 1.56 M42 between M42 J6 and M42 J7 (LM510) 1.32 1.47 1.33 1.31 1.03 1369W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1370W

The primary objective of managed motorway schemes Chris Mole: Southeastern has carried out a survey of is to improve journey time reliability. In the case of the crowding on trains and are currently looking at measures M42 this has improved by 22 per cent. since the to address crowding on specific services. implementation of the scheme. Railways: Poole

Official Engagements Mr. Syms: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much money his Department has Dr. Murrison: To ask the Minister of State, Department spent on railway (a) track and (b) station for Transport what ministerial engagements the improvements in Poole constituency in each year since Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport 1997. [320391] has planned on each day until 6 May. [319008] Chris Mole: This is an operational matter for Network Chris Mole: I have accepted speaking engagements Rail as the owner and operator of the national rail on the 9 March and 22 March. It is not usual practice to network. The hon. Member should contact Network release details of future engagements other than confirmed Rail’s chief executive at the following address for a speaking engagements. response to his questions: Iain Coucher Petrol: Ethanol Chief Executive Network Rail Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Kings Place Department for Transport if he will require all petrol 90 York Way containing ethanol to be labelled prominently as such London, N1 9AG. at the fuel pump. [319898] Railways: Standards

Mr. Khan: Fuel pumps dispensing petrol containing Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, more than 5 per cent. biofuel (including ethanol) are Department for Transport what information his required to be labelled “Not suitable for all vehicles: Department holds on the number of trains which were consult vehicle manufacturer before use” by virtue of (a) cancelled and (b) delayed by each train operating the Biofuel (Labelling) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004 No company in each of the last five years; and how many 3349). Where petrol contains more than 10 per cent. of those cancellations occurred on (i) peak, (ii) ethanol, an additional label indicating this will be required weekday off-peak and (iii) weekend services. [319045] from 5 December 2010, by virtue of a forthcoming amendment to the 2004 Regulations, implementing Chris Mole: I refer the hon. Member to the answer a requirement of the EU renewable energy directive given on 27 January 2010, Official Report, columns (2009/28/EC). 880-82W, showing the number of trains cancelled and the number of trains arriving late at destination. Railways: Bexley Data on the number of trains which may have suffered a delay en route as opposed to arriving late at destination, Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, are not held by the Department for Transport. Department for Transport what progress has been Data are held recording the number of cancellations made on reducing overcrowding on passenger rail in peak hours for London and South East operators, services from stations in the London borough of and are given in the following table. The remaining data Bexley to London terminals. [319471] requested are not held by the Department.

Peak cancellations Train operating company 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 c2c 328 268 278 222 219 Chiltern Railways 241 278 240 185 192 First Capital Connect 983 1,069 962 773 1,067 First Great Western 245 238 316 330 260 London Midland 106 63 109 76 276 London Overground 90 57 47 49 37 National Express East Anglia 805 991 1,260 974 897 South West Trains 881 877 945 582 981 Southeastern 1,246 1,089 986 953 1,431 Southern 1,108 911 801 652 938

Roads: Snow and Ice Mr. Khan: As part of the collective response by the Government to the severe weather, a number of discussions have been held with ministerial colleagues during Cabinet Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department level meetings convened on this matter. for Transport whether he has had discussions with the Furthermore, the salt suppliers are holding salt for Secretary of State for Health in 2010 on the salt and grit distribution to non-highway users. They determine priorities supplies held by hospitals. [316891] for distributing this, separately from the Salt Cell. However, 1371W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1372W non-highway salt users may seek mutual aid arrangements platforms at Waterloo; and whether Network Rail has with local authorities and others if they wish. In critical permitted development rights to integrate the platforms cases, where these arrangements are not working, health into use for domestic passengers. [319031] organisations are encouraged to raise the issue with the Department of Health. Chris Mole: Any commercial development under the former Eurostar platforms at Waterloo would be subject Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, to planning permission from the local authority (LB Department for Transport what information his Lambeth). Department holds on the quantity of salt held by each Network Rail does not enjoy permitted development local authority; and for which local authorities his rights to integrate the platforms into use for domestic Department holds no up-to-date information. [319614] passengers as Waterloo International terminal is owned by British Railways Board (Residual) Limited. Mr. Khan: An updated table has been placed in the Libraries of the House, which shows how many tonnes Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Department of salt local authorities estimate they have available, for Transport what estimate his Department has made according to the local authority salt audit returns the of the likely timetable for converting the former Waterloo Department for Transport had received at 10 a.m. on 25 International platforms for use for domestic passengers. February. [319259] These figures provide a snapshot of one day and may not fully reflect the regional weather, salt delivery dates, Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is currently weather preparedness or distribution practices. in discussion with the British Railways Board (Residuary) Limited, Network Rail and Stagecoach South West Waterloo Station Trains to establish what would be the most cost-effective way to integrate Waterloo International terminal into Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Department the domestic station that maximises benefits for the for Transport if he will instruct BRB (Residuary) Ltd. short, medium and long term. to ensure that no commercial development takes place under the platforms of Waterloo International Terminal which would significantly delay bringing into use the HOME DEPARTMENT former Eurostar platforms at Waterloo for domestic passengers. [319030] Alcoholic Drinks: Fixed Penalties

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is working Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the closely with BRB (Residuary) Ltd. to ensure that the Home Department how many penalty notices for timing of any commercial development of the space disorder were issued to persons aged 16 and over for an below the platforms at Waterloo International station offence of being drunk and disorderly in England and does not adversely impact upon any plans to bring the Wales in each of the last five years. [315063] platforms into use for domestic passengers. Alan Johnson: The number of persons issued with a Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Department penalty notice for disorder for drunk and disorderly for Transport whether any commercial development is related offences in England and Wales, from 2004 to permitted to take place under the former Eurostar 2008 is provided in the following table.

Number of persons issued with a penalty notice for disorder for drunk and disorderly related offences in England and Wales, from 2004 to 20081, 2, 3 Offences 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Drunk and disorderly offences Penalty notices for disorder 29,106 40,176 46,268 49,062 45,849 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the more severe. 2 Data include the following offence descriptions and corresponding statutes: Being found drunk in a highway or other Public place whether a building or not, or a licensed premises. Licensing Act 1872 Sec 12. Any person who in any public place is guilty, while drunk, of disorderly behaviour. Criminal Justice Act 1967 Sec.91. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts, and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice Ref: IOS 60-10

Arrests: Young People (2) how many people aged (a) under 18, (b) 18 to 29, (c) 30 to 59 and (d) over 60 years old have been arrested for each category of offence by each police Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the force in each year since 1997. [319079] Home Department (1) how many people aged (a) under 10, (b) 10 to 12, (c) 13 to 15 and (d) 16 to 18 Alan Johnson [holding answer 1 March 2010]: The years old have been arrested for each offence in each arrests collection held by the Home Office covers arrests police force area in each year since 1997; [319823] for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, broken 1373W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1374W down at a main offence group level, covering categories Monetary such as violence against the person and robbery. The value data are also broken down by age groups which are (a) Recipient Year £ Purpose aged under 10, (b) aged 10-17, (c) aged 18-20, (d) aged 21 and over, (e) age unknown and so we can only Street Pastors 2006-07 10,000 Diversionary and other provide data in these age groups and not that which is community-based projects requested. that work with young people at risk of The data requested covering the period from 2000-01 involvement in gangs and to 2007-08 has been placed in the House Library. Data the use of weapons prior to 2000-01 are not available. 2007-08 5,000 Data for 2008-09 are due to be published in early April 2009-10. Peace Alliance 2006-07 10,000 London Week of Peace 2007-08 75,000 2008-09 75,000 Asylum: Newcastle upon Tyne Christian Police 2004-05 5,000 General funding towards Association association’s aims and Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for the objectives (grant in Aid Home Department what assessment he has made of funding) the merits of the establishment of an asylum seeker 2009-10 10,000 reception centre in Newcastle upon Tyne; and what discussions he has had with the Strategic Migration National 2008-09 45,000 General funding towards Partnership and Newcastle-upon-Tyne City Council on Association of association’s aims and such a proposal. [318820] Muslim Police objectives (grant in Aid funding) 2009-10 45,000 Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency is proposing to open initial accommodation for asylum seekers in the St. Luke’s 2009-10 54,000 Target hardening homes North East. Agency staff discussed this proposal with Parochial Trust against burglary in Camden its key partners in the North East in April 2009. These (under Securing Homes discussions included both the North East Strategic Action Against Burglary Migration Partnership and the North East Consortium (SHAAB) grant stream) for Asylum Support Services. In addition, the UK Peterborough 2009-10 21,000 Target hardening homes Border Agency’s regional director for the North East, Salvation Army against burglary in Peterborough (under Yorkshire and the Humber discussed the proposal with Securing Homes Action the chief executive, Newcastle city council when they Against Burglary (SHAAB) met on 22 February. grant stream) UKBA launched a formal competition to provide initial accommodation in the North East with its target providers at the end of December 2009. An invitation to Departmental Internet bid was sent to the North East Consortium for Asylum Support Services and the North East Strategic Migration Partnership was notified of the competition in January Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010. Home Department how many designs for its website his Department has commissioned since 2005. [318649]

Departmental Grants Mr. Woolas: The Home Office has commissioned two redesigns since 2005. Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department to which faith-based organisations Departmental Telephone Services his Department has made grants in each of the last five years; and what the (a) monetary value and (b) purpose of the grant was in each case. [317768] Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the (a) average time to answer a call, (b) average waiting time for members of Alan Johnson: The Home Office funds a wide range the public during a call, (c) percentage of calls of organisations to deliver outcomes related to Home dropped or not answered and (d) average length of Office objectives. Although it is not always possible to calls was in call centres run by his Department and tell from the information available to us whether each of its agencies in the latest period for which organisations would regard themselves as faith-based, figures are available. [312376] the information set out in the table is based on those organisations where it is clear they are, and consider Mr. Woolas: The Core Home Office does not run any themselves to be, faith-based. call centres. Please see the information requested in the The Department has made the following payments to following table in respect of the Home Office Executive faith-based organisations within the last five years: Agencies: 1375W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1376W

United Kingdom Border Agency Criminal Records Bureau Identity and Passport Service

Average time to answer a call 5 minutes 45 seconds 9 seconds Calls are answered on second ring by automated response Average waiting time for 6 minutes 54 seconds 7 seconds 10 seconds to speak to agency after selecting members of the public during a from automated response call Percentage of calls dropped or 26.7 per cent. 0.80 per cent. 1.5 per cent. not answered Average length of calls 4 minutes 02 seconds 2 minutes 45 seconds 4 minutes 30 seconds

The figures provided in the above table for UKBA Removals and voluntary departures of Commonwealth nationals from the United 1,2 3 4,7 and CRB are based on monthly figures available for Kingdom , by country of nationality , 2007 to 2009 December 2009. Figures for IPS provided are based on Number of departures Country of averages from monthly returns for Authentication. By nationality 2007 20087 20097 Interview (ABI) and Adviceline calls. UKBA have made improvements to their procedures Kiribati — — 5 for answering calls over the past six months. There is an Lesotho 15 25 15 action plan in place to deliver further improvements. Malawi 300 375 495 Malaysia 2,065 2,040 1,410 Deportation: Commonwealth Maldives 10 10 15 Malta * * * Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mauritius 660 760 665 the Home Department how many people from each Mozambique 10 15 15 Commonwealth country have been deported in (a) Namibia 250 170 150 each of the last three years and (b) 2010 to date. Nauru 5 — * New Zealand 225 260 260 [319580] Nigeria 3,500 3,660 2,890 Pakistan 3,895 3,160 2,990 Mr. Woolas: The following table shows the number of Papua New Guinea 5 * 5 nationals of each Commonwealth country removed or Rwanda6 35 30 30 departed voluntarily, 2007 to 2009. Figures for 2010 are Samoa * * 5 not currently available. Statistics for the first quarter of Seychelles 75 40 40 2010 will be published on the 27 May 2010. Sierra Leone 255 190 120 The Home Office publishes statistics on the number Singapore 115 120 100 of persons removed or departed voluntarily from the Solomon Islands 5 — — UK on a quarterly and annual basis, which are available South Africa 1,900 1,645 1,290 from the Library of the House and from the Home Sri Lanka 775 705 695 Office’s Research, Development and Statistics website St. Kitts and Nevis 30 20 20 at: St. Lucia 165 160 115 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- St. Vincent and the 90 80 75 stats.html Grenadines Removals and voluntary departures of Commonwealth nationals from the United Swaziland 40 45 30 Kingdom1,2, by country of nationality3, 2007 to 20094,7 Tanzania 155 165 170 Number of departures Tonga 10 10 10 Country of Trinidad and 350 310 270 nationality 2007 20087 20097 Tobago Tuvalu — — * Antigua and 65 35 40 Barbuda Uganda 425 455 390 Australia 655 680 670 Vanuatu5—— Bahamas 10 10 10 Zambia 120 140 140 Bangladesh 1,310 1,850 1,200 Commonwealth 26,230 27,480 24,080 Barbados 75 95 80 total Belize1515101 Includes enforced removals, persons departing voluntarily after notifying the UK Border Agency of their intention to leave prior to their departure, persons Botswana 80 55 70 leaving under Assisted Voluntary Return Programmes run by the International Brunei 5 10 10 Organization for Migration, persons who it has been established left the UK Cameroon 365 235 235 without informing the immigration authorities and non-asylum cases refused entry at port and subsequently removed. Canada 795 845 785 2 Figures include dependants. Cyprus 10 5 * 3 Includes Commonwealth member states as at 25 February 2010. the full list Dominica 60 50 50 is available from the Commonwealth Secretariat website at: 5 www.thecommonwealth.org Fiji 20 20 20 4 Figures rounded to the nearest five (— = 0, * = one or two) and may not sum Gambia 230 185 150 to the totals shown because of independent rounding. 5 Ghana 1,040 1,350 980 Following the decisions taken by the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group on 31 July 2009, Fiji Islands was suspended from membership of the Grenada 90 85 85 Commonwealth on 1 September 2009. Guyana 60 55 50 6 Rwanda joined the Commonwealth in November 2009. 7 India 3,965 5,320 5,740 Provisional figures. Removals and voluntary departures recorded on the system as at the dates on which the data extracts were taken. Figures will Jamaica 1,570 1,625 1,105 under record due to data cleansing and data matching exercises that take place Kenya 330 360 365 after the extracts are taken. 1377W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1378W

Deportation: Offenders All foreign national prisoners are entered on the watch list when removed so checks can be made to Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the prevent those who are barred and those who have no Home Department (1) how many foreign national right from entering the UK. To provide information on offenders who have been subject to the (a) early foreign nationals who have been removed and gone on removal and (b) facilitated return scheme have been (i) to re-offend would require the examination of individual charged with and (ii) convicted of a further offence; records which would incur disproportionate cost. [317314] Electronic Government: International Cooperation (2) what the average length of custodial sentence has been of a foreign national prisoner participating in the Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) early removal and (b) facilitated return scheme; Home Department what work (a) his Department, (b) [317315] the Identity and Passport Service and (c) each of his (3) how many foreign national prisoners of each Department’s other agencies has carried out with or for nationality have participated in the (a) early removal Project STORK in each of the last five years. [318710] and (b) facilitated return scheme in each year since their inception; [317316] Alan Johnson: Project STORK started in June 2008 and the Identity and Passport Service is leading the UK (4) what the monetary value of the average financial contribution to the project. Some preparatory work was package received by foreign national prisoners is as a undertaken from 2007 until the formal start of the result of participation in the (a) early removal and (b) project. During this time work on the project has fallen facilitated return scheme; [317317] into two phases. The first has been analysis and design (5) how many foreign national prisoners to enable technical implementation and meet legal participating in the (a) early removal and (b) requirements. The second is the implementation of a facilitated return scheme were serving a custodial number of pilot projects, starting later this year. sentence of (i) four years or less, (ii) three years or less and (iii) two years or less at the latest date for which Entry Clearances: Skilled Workers figures are available. [317318] Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Woolas [holding answer 22 February 2010]: All Home Department pursuant to the answer of 8 foreign nationals subject to removal will be considered December 2009, Official Report, columns 221-22W, on by National Offender Management Service under the entry clearances, how many permits under Tier 2 early removals scheme (ERS), which allows for early general were issued in each month of 2009. [318670] removal up to a maximum of 270 days prior to the halfway point of the sentence, subject to the serving of Mr. Woolas [holding answer 25 February 2010]: The a requisite period. Since 2008, the UKBA has removed following table provides detail of the numbers of in-country approximately 11,000 foreign national prisoners. Of grants of leave to remain and out of country visas these, approximately a quarter were removed before the issued under Tier 2 (General) of the Points Based end of the sentence under the ERS and approximately System in each month of 2009. 30 per cent. were removed under the facilitated returns scheme. Tier 2 (General) We do not publish a breakdown by nationality of the In country Out of country foreign national prisoners removed or deported from January 168 147 the UK. Information on total removals and voluntary February 566 305 departures from the UK by nationality is published March 772 453 quarterly. The latest can be found at: April 687 557 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq309 May 1,032 756 supp1.xls#’TableF’!A1 June 1,356 883 Of those removed directly from prison under ERS July 1,636 886 since 2008, the average sentence length was between August 1,561 1,078 three and four years and approximately two-thirds were September 1,191 977 serving a sentence of less than four years. October 1,201 856 Of those removed from the UK under the FRS November 1,136 821 scheme since 2008, the average sentence length was December 1,275 839 between two and three years and approximately three- Total 12,581 8,558 quarters were serving a sentence of less than four years. The table above is based on approved main applications This is taken from provisional management information only. This data is not provided under National Statistics and subject to change. Data from before 2008 could be protocols. It has been derived from local management obtained only by referencing individual case files. This information and is therefore provisional and subject to would be at disproportionate cost. change. In both 2008 and between quarters 1 and 3 of 2009 less than three-quarters removed under FRS claimed Human Trafficking the reintegration package on return and of those that did, the average amount received was less than £2,500 Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the for 2008 and £3,500 for quarters 1 to 3 of 2009. There is Home Department how many individuals waited no financial package associated with ERS. between their first application to the National Referral 1379W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1380W

Mechanism and receiving their conclusive grounds linked. Where an asylum application is made, it can be decisions for (a) up to seven days, (b) eight to 45 days, before, during or after a referral and conclusive grounds (c) 46 days to three months, (d) three to six months decision under the NRM. and (e) over six months in the latest period for which figures are available. [318963] The following is a table of cases where there has been an asylum interview and a conclusive grounds decision Mr. Woolas [holding answer 1 March 2010]: Between under the NRM with their respective dates: 1 April 2009 and 31 December 2009, 132 decisions have Case number Date of asylum Date of conclusive been made at the conclusive grounds stage. From the interview grounds decision date of referral (a) no conclusive grounds decision were released in the first seven days, (b) 24 were released in 1 6 April 2009 19 April 2009 eight to 45 days, (c) 65 in 46 days to three months, (d) 2 6 April 2009 30 June 2009 39 in three to six months and (e) four took over six 3 15 April 2009 17 March 2009 months. 4 5 May 2009 17 September 2009 5 1 May 2009 24 August 2009 Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the 6 30 April 2009 8 July 2009 Home Department what the (a) average and (b) 7 6 May 2009 11 June 2009 maximum number of case owners is in respect of each 8 18 May 2009 16 July 2009 potential human trafficking case that has been referred 9 8 October 2009 13 November 2009 through the National Referral Mechanism since 1 April 10 5 August 2009 23 October 2009 2009. [318972] 11 12 March 2009 15 October 2009 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 1 March 2010]: The 12 2 March 2009 17 September 2009 majority of National Referral Mechanism cases are 13 8 April 2009 17 June 2009 assessed by two officers. Upon referral, a case will be 14 27 March 2009 24 August 2009 allocated to a competent authority case owner who will 15 9 June 2009 29 September 2009 decide if someone is a victim of trafficking. Before the 16 24 August 2009 27 October 2009 decision is released it will then be considered by a 17 22 September 2009 2 October 2009 second person, normally a senior competent authority, 18 22 August 2009 16 September 2009 to quality assure the decision. 19 25 June 2009 9 September 2009 In cases where a referral has been made by an external 20 3 February2009 29 October 2009 agency such as the police or local authority, and where 21 2 March 2009 29 September 2009 there is an immigration issue but the person is not yet 22 24 August 2009 11 November 2009 known to UKBA, the UK Human Trafficking Centre 23 26 August 2009 3 September 2009 (UKHTC) will make the reasonable grounds decision 24 9 August 2007 14 December 2009 and then pass the case to the UKBA Competent Authority 25 3 November 2009 20 November 2009 for the conclusive grounds decision. In these circumstances 26 7 September 2009 30 October 2009 cases will be considered by four officers at various 27 14 September 2009 27 November 2009 stages of the NRM process. 28 7 August 2009 7 April 2009 There will be instances where a case is assigned to a 29 22 July 2009 15 July 2009 competent authority who becomes unavailable part way 30 4 August 2009 10 November 2009 through consideration due to illness or a change in role. 31 24 July 2009 19 August 2009 These circumstances are rare but where they occur they 32 28 April 2009 3 July 2009 will result in the case being reallocated to another case 33 10 September 2009 5 August 2009 owner. 34 5 August 2009 2 December 2009 35 3 September 2009 28 September 2009 Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the 37 16 September 2009 23 November 2009 Home Department how much time elapsed between the 38 7 April 2009 3 December 2009 asylum interview and a conclusive grounds decision in respect of the case of each potential victim of human 39 10 February2009 1 December 2009 trafficking referred to the National Referral 40 29 October 2009 4 December 2009 Mechanism on the latest date for which figures are 41 14 July 2009 1 October 2009 available. [319835] 42 22 February 2006 14 December 2009 43 11 February 2009 14 August 2009 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 1 March 2010]: The 44 17 July 2009 3 November 2009 National Referral Mechanism (NRM) for identifying 45 14 August 2009 20 November 2009 victims of human trafficking includes a decision on 46 27 August 2009 23 October 2009 whether a person is conclusively found to be a victim of 47 14 July 2009 4 November 2009 trafficking. This is separate from the asylum system, 48 17 September 2008 24 July2009 which involves an assessment of whether someone has a 49 19 November 2009 1 December 2009 well founded fear of persecution under the 1951 Geneva 50 17 November 2009 30 October 2009 Convention. 51 9 February 2009 22 June 2009 It will be under a particular set of circumstances 52 17 July 2009 30 October 2009 where there has been an asylum application leading to 53 30 July 2009 14 August 2009 an asylum interview as well as a conclusive grounds 54 3 November 2009 26 November 2009 trafficking decision for the same individual. Moreover 55 20 January 2010 16 December 2009 the timing of the separate processes is not directly 1381W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1382W

Identity and Passport Service last 18 months; and in respect of which addresses. [319665]

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Meg Hillier: The Identity and Passport Service has for the Home Department what planning applications submitted two planning applications as detailed in the the Identity and Passport Service has submitted in the following table:

Date Address Planning reference Detail Status

18 May 2009 Aragon Court, 09/00544/FUL Installation of two roof Granted in full. Northminster Road, mounted heat pump units Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, PE1 1QG 8 February 2010 Law Society House, Z/2010/0106/F New external louvers to This application has been checked for 90-106 Victoria rear elevation and roof top completeness and is considered to be valid. St. Belfast BT1 3JZ plant to existing office The application will now be subject to: neighbour accommodation notification, advertising, consultation with statutory agencies, and if necessary, other organisations and a site inspection.

Identity and Passport Service: Manpower Identity Cards: EU Action

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people worked for the Home Department what the nature is of the Identity and Passport Service (a) in 2006 and (b) at relationship between the Identity and Passport Service the latest date for which figures are available; and how and Project STORK. [318770] many are projected to work for it in 2015. [318706] Alan Johnson [holding answer 25 February 2010]: Alan Johnson: As published in the 2006-07 Annual The Identity and Passport Service is leading the UK Report, the average number of employees on the Agency contribution to Project Stork as a member of a consortium payroll during the year ending 31 March 2007 was 3,619 within the EU who are working together to pilot a cross The latest published figures are also available in the border solution for the delivery of e-services. The project 2008-09 Annual Report which shows that the average is part of the European Union Competitiveness and number of employees on the Agency payroll during that Innovation Framework Programme. year was 4,078. This figure includes the GRO staff who Illegal Immigrants: Employment joined the Agency from 1 April 2008. IPS does not have a projected headcount for 2015. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the name and address Identity Cards is of each business the UK Border Agency has fined for hiring illegal immigrants in the last 24 months. [319617] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what (a) Government Mr. Woolas: Since the introduction of civil penalties departments, (b) non-governmental public bodies and which came into effect for those employed on, or after (c) other organisations (i) have and (ii) are planned to 29 February 2008, a total of 3,709 notices of liability have access to information held on the national identity for a civil penalty to the period 31 January 2010, have database. [318708] been issued to employers hiring illegal workers. These data are derived from local management information Alan Johnson: No organisation will have direct access and are therefore provisional and subject to change. It is to information recorded on the National Identity Register, not practical to list the names and addresses of all those with or without the consent of the individual. The employers but details of employers where the appeal Identity Cards Act 2006, and secondary legislation process against service of a notice of liability for a civil made there under, sets out who may be provided with penalty has been fully exhausted in the last quarter can information from an individual’s entry on the register be found on the UK Border Agency website at the and under what circumstances. following link: www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the employersandsponsors/listemployerspenalties/ Home Department if he will make it his policy not to The information is listed by region and includes the introduce compulsory identity cards. [318715] name of the business, the town or city where it is located, the postcode of the business, the number of Alan Johnson: Government policy is that Identity illegal workers found to be working illegally and the Cards are voluntary. The Prime Minister has made it amount of the civil penalty imposed. clear that there will be no legislation to make Identity Cards compulsory for British citizens in the next Parliament. Immigration Controls Identity cards are all about personal choice and the introduction of identity cards, which has now started Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the for British citizens, is on a voluntary basis. Home Department how many Certificates of Sponsorship 1383W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1384W have been granted to employers under (a) Tier 2 general Police Authority to consult the Commissioner in making and (b) Tier 2 ICT to date; and how many such senior appointments. This process will be kept under certificates for the second year of Tier 2 of the points-based review. system remain under consideration. [318427] Passports: Fraud

Mr. Woolas [holding answer 24 February 2010]: As at Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 21 February 2010 the number of Certificates of Sponsorship the Home Department how many fraudulent passport (CoS) assigned to employers under Tier 2 (General) is applications were made in 2009; and how many of 36,1401 and the number assigned for Intra-company 1 those applications involved (a) identity theft and (b) transfer is 40,980 . false declarations where the individual was otherwise Information on the number of certificates for the entitled to a passport. [319577] second year of Tier 2 which remain under consideration is not available. Meg Hillier: IPS estimates that in the calendar year 1 These figures are not provided under National Statistics protocols 2009 there were 13,396 fraudulent passport applications. and have been derived from local management information. They The number of confirmed frauds detected in 2009 was are therefore provisional and subject to change. around 8,600 of which 167 involved identity theft. IPS does not routinely collate data where a false declaration Local Government Finance has been made where the applicant was otherwise entitled to a passport. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Police: Bureaucracy for the Home Department what datasets not included in the National Indicator Set local authorities are Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the required to submit to (a) his Department and (b) its Home Department (1) what estimate he has made of agencies. [319616] the proportion of police officer time spent on paperwork in each year since 1997; [319529] Mr. Hanson: The Home Office does not place any (2) what estimate he has made of the proportion of statutory obligations on local authorities to submit, for police officer time spent on beat patrol in each year either performance management or monitoring purposes, since 1997; [319530] any datasets to the department or its agencies, other than the National Indicator Set. (3) what estimate he has made of the proportion of police officer time spent on patrol (a) on foot and (b) Members: Correspondence in cars in each year since 1997. [319531] Alan Johnson: Information on time spent on patrol Sir Michael Spicer: To ask the Secretary of State for and paperwork was collected between 2003-04 and 2007-08 the Home Department when he expects to reply to the as part of the frontline policing measure and is set out email from the hon. Member for West Worcestershire, in the following table. Information was not collected on dated 17 December 2009, on asylum seekers (reference: time spent on patrol in cars and on foot. To reduce M27601/9). [319456] paperwork burdens on police officers the collection of data about time spent by officers on police activities Mr. Woolas [holding answer 1 March 2010]: I replied ceased after 2007-08 in response to the recommendations to the hon. Member’s e-mail under reference M27605/9 by Sir David Normington in his review of data burdens on 19 January 2010. placed by the Government on the police service published I will arrange despatch of a further copy of that in February 2009. reply. The figure for time spent on patrol does not include everything done by an officer engaged in frontline policing. Metropolitan Police It only measures the time an officer is engaged on no other activity but patrol, for example as soon as they Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State respond to an incident they are counted against that for the Home Department if he will make it his policy activity and not patrol. It is therefore inappropriate to to review the process by which senior police officers in look at the patrol element in isolation from the rest of the Metropolitan Police are appointed; and if he will the frontline policing measure. make a statement. [319851] Policing necessarily requires a degree of paperwork: to ensure accountability in the use of powers, prepare Mr. Hanson: The Government are supportive of the case files, and take witness statements. Non-incident Commissioner having a strong role in appointments. paperwork includes handling complaints. All of these The Policing and Crime Act 2009 reinforces this by activities are part of providing a modern, effective and making it a statutory obligation for the Metropolitan accountable police service.

Time spent on patrol and paperwork 2003-04 to 2007-08 Percentage Time spent on non Total time spent on Time spent on incident- incident related Frontline policing paperwork related paperwork paperwork Time spent on patrol measure

2003-04 20.1 10.3 9.8 14.2 62.1 2004-05 18.4 9.9 8.5 15.3 62.6 1385W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1386W

Time spent on patrol and paperwork 2003-04 to 2007-08 Percentage Time spent on non Total time spent on Time spent on incident- incident related Frontline policing paperwork related paperwork paperwork Time spent on patrol measure

2005-06 19.3 10.8 8.5 14.0 63.1 2006-07 19.9 11.4 8.5 13.6 64.2 2007-08 21.7 12.4 9.3 13.8 64.9

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the As at 1 April 2009, and subject to the caveats mentioned Home Department what estimate he has made of the above, there were 7,579 School pupils who were members proportion of police officer time spent on health and of their State School’s Combined Cadet Force. However, safety-related activities in each year since 1997. [319533] given that the majority of Cadets are members of a community-based Cadet unit, it is estimated that some Alan Johnson: Information relating to the proportion 90,000 cadets are state school pupils. In the same timeframe of time spent on ‘health and safety-related activities’ is there were some 130,000 cadets overall. It should also not held centrally. be noted that there are 25 known partnerships where The health, safety and welfare of police officers is the Independent Schools with CCFs provide cadet places responsibility of the chief officer of each individual to neighbouring State schools; for these partnerships it police force. is not possible to identify the numbers of State School cadets. Prison Sentences: Deportation Full statistics on cadet forces can be found on the Defence Analytical Services and Advice organisation’s Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for the website in their Tri-Service Publication (TSP) 7: Home Department how many prisoners from (a) www.dasa.mod.uk Ireland and (b) each other European Economic Area country serving mandatory life sentences have been deported or removed in each of the last five years. Children: Day Care [320071] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Woolas [holding answer 2 March 2010]: Since for Children, Schools and Families what steps his 2007, the UK Border Agency has removed or deported Department and its predecessors have taken to reduce over 15,000 foreign national offenders. Of those removed the cost of child care to parents and carers in London or deported, less than three in every thousand previously since 2005. [319663] served a mandatory life sentence. Information from before this period could be obtained Dawn Primarolo: As a result of changes introduced only by reviewing individual records. This would be a since 2004, all families in London (as elsewhere in disproportionate cost. England) with three and four-year-olds are entitled to As a general rule, it is our policy not to disclose the 12.5 hours of free early learning and child care per volume or characteristics of those removed to specific week, and this will rise to 15 hours per week from countries as it would jeopardise our diplomatic relations. September 2010. Since September 2009, all local authorities This exemption would normally include EEA countries in London have also received funding of 10 hours of but, in the case of the Irish Republic and consistent free early learning and child care per week to their 15 with the special relationship that exists between the UK per cent. most disadvantaged two-year-olds. and the Republic of Ireland, I can confirm that, Parents in London can also receive support for child approximately 30 Irish national prisoners have been care costs through the tax credits system. In 2006, the removed since 2007. threshold of costs that were available to parents was increased from 70 per cent. to 80 per cent. In London the number of families benefiting increased by over CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES 12,000 between 2004-05 and 2007-08 (the latest year for which figures are available). Cadet Forces From 2005 to 2009, a joint initiative by the Government and the London Development Agency, the London Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Childcare Affordability Pilots 2005, offered parents more Children, Schools and Families how many pupils at (a) affordable and flexible child care places. At its peak the grammar, (b) comprehensive and (c) Academy pilot provided over 6,000 subsidised flexible day care schools were members of cadet forces in the last year places. for which figures are available. [316722] Since 2009 the Childcare Affordability Pilots have been trialling with London families two possible Mr. Kevan Jones: I have been asked to reply. improvements to the support for child care costs that The information required is not held in the format they receive through the child care element of working requested. The data provided reflects only the category tax credit. The pilots are assessing the impact on child of ’State’ schools (noting that for the purposes of care take up of offering families 100 per cent. of their Combined Cadet Force (CCF) data collated by MOD, child care costs up to £215 per week for one child rather all other schools are categorised as Independent). than the usual £140; and, for families with a disabled 1387W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1388W child, paying 80 per cent. of their child care costs up of pre-school places is not separately available. Part-time £300 per week for one child. Both strands offer up to equivalent places are derived by counting children taking £350 per week if parents have more than one child. up 12 and a half hours per week as one place, 10 hours per week as 0.8 places, seven and a half hours per week Children’s Centres: South West as 0.6 places, five hours per week as 0.4 places and two and a half hours per week as 0.2 places. Data at Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, parliamentary constituency level are not available prior Schools and Families how many children’s centres are to 2004. (a) open and (b) planned to be opened in the next 12 Table 2: Part-time equivalent number of free early education places1, 2, 3 filled by months at each location in each local authority area in three and four-year-olds4, parliamentary constituency: Leeds North West, the south west. [316055] position in January each year Three-year-olds Four-year-olds Dawn Primarolo: The table setting out the number of 2004 570 720 Sure Start Children’s Centres that have (a) opened and 2005 590 600 (b) planned to be opened in the next 12 months at each 2006 600 710 location in each local authority area in the south west as 2007 660 690 at 31 December 2009, has been placed in the Libraries. 2008 710 650 Class Sizes: Salford 2009 760 700 1 A place is equal to 12.5 hours (five sessions) and can be filled by more than one child. Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Children, Schools and Families what the average class 3 Prior to 2004, information on early education places was derived from returns made by local authorities as part of the nursery education grant (NEG) data size in schools in Salford was in (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. collection exercise. These data were collected at local authority level, therefore [317388] data for this parliamentary constituency is not available prior to 2004. 4 Age of all children taken at 31 December in the previous calendar year. Source: Ms Diana R. Johnson: The average class size in Early Years Census and School Census. maintained primary schools in Salford constituency was 26.0 in 1997 and 24.6 in 2009; the figures for state The latest figures on early education places for three funded secondary schools were 21.4 and 18.4 respectively. and four-year-olds in England were published in Statistical ″ Figures include middle schools as deemed. City First Release (SFR) 11/2009 Provision for children ″ technology colleges and academies are included under under five years of age in England: January 2009 , secondary. available on the Department’s website: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000848/ Pre-school Education: Leeds index.shtml

Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many (a) free Pupil Exclusions nursery and (b) pre-school places were available for children aged (i) three and (ii) four years old in Leeds North West constituency in each year since 1997. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for [319508] Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 312W, on Dawn Primarolo: Table 1 shows the number of part-time National Safeguarding Delivery Unit: standards, how equivalent places filled by three and four-year-olds in many pupils received more than (a) 15 and (b) 20 Leeds North West constituency from 2004 to 2009. fixed period exclusions in each local authority area in The Department publishes information on the part-time (i) 2006-07 and (ii) 2007-08. [319165] equivalent number of free early education places filled by three and four-year-olds in maintained, private, voluntary Ms Diana R. Johnson: The requested information is and independent providers. Information on the number shown in the following table.

Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 number of times pupil enrolments were excluded for a fixed period4 2006/07 and 2007/08 2006/07 2007/08 Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than 15 exclusions 20 exclusions 15 exclusions 20 exclusions

City of London 0 0 0 0 Camden 0 0 0 0 Greenwich x 0 x x Hackney 0 0 0 0 Hammersmith and Fulham 0 0 0 0 Islington 0 0 0 0 Kensington and Chelsea 0 0 0 0 Lambeth x x x 0 Lewisham 0 0 0 0 Southwark x 0 0 0 Tower Hamlets 0 0 0 0 Wandsworth 0 0 0 0 1389W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1390W

Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 number of times pupil enrolments were excluded for a fixed period4 2006/07 and 2007/08 2006/07 2007/08 Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than 15 exclusions 20 exclusions 15 exclusions 20 exclusions

Westminster 0 0 x 0 Barking and Dagenham 0 0 0 0 Barnet 0 0 0 0 Bexley 0 0 0 0 Brent x000 Bromley 10 x x 0 Croydon 0 0 0 0 Ealing 0 0 0 0 Enfield x x x x Haringey x 0 0 0 Harrow 0 0 x 0 Havering 0 0 0 0 Hillingdon 0 0 0 0 Hounslow 0 0 0 0 Kingston upon Thames 0 0 0 0 Merton x x 0 0 Newham 0000 Redbridge x 0 x x Richmond upon Thames 0 0 0 0 Sutton 0 0 x 0 Waltham Forest x x 0 0 Birmingham 10 10 x 0 Coventry x 0 0 0 Dudley x x x 0 Sandwell 0 0 0 0 Solihull 0 0 x 0 Walsall 0 0 0 0 Wolverhampton x x 0 0 Knowsley 0 0 0 0 Liverpool 0 0 0 0 St. Helens 0 0 0 0 Sefton 0 0 0 0 Wirral 0 0 0 0 Bolton x x 0 0 Bury 0 0 x 0 Manchester x 0 x x Oldham 0 0 0 0 Rochdale 0 0 0 0 Salford x x 0 0 Stockport 0 0 x 0 Tameside x x x 0 Trafford 0000 Wigan x 0 x x Barnsley 0 0 0 0 Doncaster 10 0 x 0 Rotherham x x x 0 Sheffield 0 0 0 0 Bradford x000 Calderdale 0 0 0 0 Kirklees x 0 x 0 Leeds x x x x Wakefield x x x 0 Gateshead 0 0 0 0 Newcastle upon Tyne 0 0 0 0 North Tyneside 0 0 0 0 South Tyneside 0 0 0 0 Sunderland 0 0 0 0 Isles of Scilly 0 0 0 0 Bath and North East Somerset x 0 x x City of Bristol 0 0 x 0 1391W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1392W

Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 number of times pupil enrolments were excluded for a fixed period4 2006/07 and 2007/08 2006/07 2007/08 Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than 15 exclusions 20 exclusions 15 exclusions 20 exclusions

North Somerset 0 0 0 0 South Gloucestershire x 0 0 0 Hartlepool 0 0 0 0 Middlesbrough 0 0 0 0 Redcar and Cleveland 0 0 0 0 Stockton on Tees 0 0 0 0 City of Kingston-Upon-Hull x x x 0 East Riding of Yorkshire x 0 10 x North East Lincolnshire 0 0 0 0 North Lincolnshire 0 0 x 0 North Yorkshire x 0 x 0 York 0000 Bedfordshire x x 0 0 Luton 0 0 0 0 Buckinghamshire x 0 x 0 Milton Keynes 0 0 0 0 Derbyshire 10 x x x Derby 0 0 0 0 Dorset 0 0 0 0 Poole 10 x 10 x Bournemouth 0 0 0 0 Durham x 0 10 x Darlington 0 0 0 0 East Sussex x x 0 0 Brighton and Hove 0 0 x x Hampshire x x x x Portsmouth x 0 x 0 Southampton 0 0 10 x Leicestershire 0 0 x 0 Leicester City 0 0 x 0 Rutland 0 0 0 0 Staffordshire 0 0 x 0 Stoke 0 0 0 0 Wiltshire x 0 x 0 Swindon 0 0 x x Bracknell Forest 0 0 0 0 Windsor and Maidenhead 0 0 0 0 West Berkshire 0 0 x 0 Reading 0 0 x 0 Slough 0 0 0 0 Wokingham 0 0 x 0 Cambridgeshire x x 0 0 Peterborough 0 0 0 0 Cheshire 10 0 x x Halton 0 0 0 0 Warrington 0 0 x 0 Devon x0xx Plymouth x 0 0 0 Torbay 0000 Essex x 0 10 x Southend 0 0 0 0 Thurrock 0 0 0 0 Herefordshire x x 0 0 Worcestershire x 0 0 0 Kent 00x0 Medway 00xx Lancashire x 0 x x Blackburn with Darwen 0 0 0 0 Blackpool 0 0 x x Nottinghamshire 0 0 0 0 1393W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1394W

Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 number of times pupil enrolments were excluded for a fixed period4 2006/07 and 2007/08 2006/07 2007/08 Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than Pupils with more than 15 exclusions 20 exclusions 15 exclusions 20 exclusions

Nottingham 0 0 x 0 Shropshire 0 0 0 0 Telford and Wrekin x x 0 0 Cornwall x 0 0 0 Cumbria x 0 0 0 Gloucestershire 0 0 x 0 Hertfordshire 0 0 x 0 Isle of Wight 0 0 0 0 Lincolnshire 0 0 x 0 Norfolk 0 0 0 0 Northamptonshire x 0 10 x Northumberland 0 0 0 0 Oxfordshire x 0 0 0 Somerset x x 10 x Suffolk 10 x x 0 Surrey x 0 10 0 Warwickshire 0 0 0 0 West Sussex 0 0 0 0 England 130 40 150 40 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Pupils may be counted more than once if they were registered at more than one school or moved schools during the school year. Notes: 1. Those pupils counted in the ‘more than 20’ category are also included in the ‘more than 15’ category. 2, Figures rounded to nearest 10. Source: School Census

Sports: Primary Education we believe that the additional investment, and other measures we have taken, has made a contribution towards Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for the decreases in the abortion rate. Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the number of (a) comprehensive and (b) Aortic Aneurysm: Screening maintained primary schools which held a school sports day in the latest period for which figures are available. Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [315705] (1) how much the NHS Abdominal Aortic Screening programme has cost to date; [320049] Mr. Iain Wright: The annual PE and Sport survey collects data from maintained schools relating to pupils’ (2) how many phases of NHS Abdominal Aortic participation in PE and sport. The 2008/09 survey found Screening programme there will be; [320050] that all primary schools and 98 per cent. of secondary (3) which NHS trusts have submitted an application schools held a sports day during the last academic year. to the NHS Abdominal Aortic Screening programme to begin an ultrasound screening programme for aortic aneurysms; [320051] HEALTH (4) what the timetable is for the full implementation Abortion of the NHS Abdominal Aortic Screening programme; [320052] Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for (5) what estimate his Department made about the Health pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2010, number of patients who will have been screened in each Official Report, columns 382-3W, on abortion, what the of the sites covered by phase one of the NHS evidential basis is for the statement that additional Abdominal Aortic Screening programme after (a) one funding for contraception in the last two years has year and (b) five years; [320054] contributed to a decrease in abortion rates. [319957] (6) when ultrasound screening for aortic aneurysms Gillian Merron: The Department invested additional will begin in each of the sites covered by phase one of funds in contraception services in April 2008 (£12.8 the NHS Abdominal Aortic Screening programme; million), September 2008 (£10 million) and April 2009 [320055] (£11.6 million). In each of the last five quarters (July (7) what steps his Department is taking to ensure 2008 to September 2009), the abortion rate was lower that men aged 65 years old participate in an ultrasound than the corresponding quarter in the preceding year. screening programme for aortic aneurysms (a) at each As these decreases in the abortion rate coincide with the of the early implementation sites and (b) when the period in which the additional investment was available, programme is fully implemented. [320056] 1395W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1396W

Ann Keen: The NHS Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm as this depends on the number of applications received screening programme has cost £5,335,809.50 up to the and geographical fit of each local screening programme. end of March 2010. This is made up of start up and full year costs for six early implementation sites, start up The following national health service trusts have been costs for four phase one sites, screening equipment for successful with their applications to begin ultrasound 10 sites, training of technicians and information leaflets. screening for aortic aneurysms: It is anticipated that there will be a maximum of eight phases of roll out, however the exact number is unknown

Phase Screening Programme NHS Trust

Early Implementation Gloucestershire Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Early Implementation West Sussex Royal West Sussex NHS Trust Early Implementation South West London St George’s Healthcare Trust Early Implementation South Devon and Exeter South Devon Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust Early Implementation South Manchester Central Manchester and Manchester Children’s University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust Early Implementation Leicestershire University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust Phase 1 Peninsula Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust Phase 1 Heartlands Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust Phase 1 South East London Guy’s and St Thomas’ Hospital NHS Trust Phase 1 North East Gateshead Health NHS Foundation Trust Phase 1 North Central London The Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust Phase 1 North West London Imperial Healthcare NHS Trust Phase 1 East Yorkshire and The Humber Hull and East Yorkshire Hospital NHS Trust

It is anticipated that full national roll out of the how well men invited for screening understand the risks they Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm screening programme will may face and; be completed by the end of 2012-13. assess how well health professionals think the information The following table details the numbers of patients meets the needs of men invited for screening and the programme itself. screened in phase one after a) one year and b) five years: Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients have been screened as part of the Screening Programme Year One Year Five NHS Abdominal Aortic Screening programme at each Peninsula 4,369 29,512 early implementation site. [320053] South East London 4,818 32,548 North East 11,598 78,350 Ann Keen: The following table details the number of patients screened by each screening programme to the Heartlands 3,364 22,721 end of February 2010: North Central 3,966 26,789 London Screening Programme Numbers of patients screened North West London 7,349 49,648 East Yorkshire and 4,199 28,363 Gloucestershire 4,214 The Humber Leicestershire 4,247 All phase one sites will be screening by the end of South West London 3,000 May 2010. South Devon 2,276 South Manchester 1,878 The national programme team have put in place a West Sussex 3,111 number of measures to ensure the highest possible take up of screening once men have been identified for Basildon and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS screening through their general practitioner. Examples Foundation Trust include: Involving 65 year old men when developing the initial communication materials for the screening programme to ensure Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for that key messages were targeted at the right level; Health what recent assessment has been made of the National information leaflets have been designed for use in standard and quality of care and management at local programmes to ensure consistency of messages and offer Basildon and Thurrock Hospital Trust by (a) Monitor, informed choice; (b) the Care Quality Commission and (c) his Recruiting a Communications manager to work with local Department. [320267] programmes ensuring that the right information is promoted to suit their local demographic; and Mr. Mike O’Brien: Chris Mellor, Acting Chair of Commissioning an independent evaluation of all information Monitor, the regulatory body for NHS Foundation to assess: Trusts, has written to my right hon. Friend the Secretary whether the patient information materials met the needs of of State (Andy Burnham) about the progress being men invited for screening made at the trust. 1397W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1398W

Monitor has advised that further progress has been Gillian Merron: The commissioning and funding of made at the trust since December 2009. any treatments, including complementary/alternative, is The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has advised the responsibility of the national health service. Many that it has an ongoing engagement with Basildon and strategic health authorities and primary care trusts have Thurrock as part of the registration process which developed their own policies on which treatments they began in January. CQC is in the process of assessing will provide based one the safety and clinical and cost- whether conditions will need to be attached to the effectiveness of a treatment as well as the availability of trust’s registration on 1 April. suitably qualified/regulated practitioners. When developing guidance for the management of health conditions, the The Secretary of State (Andy Burnham) will update National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence the House in a written ministerial statement which will (NICE) considers complementary therapies, where be issued on 5 March. appropriate and sufficient evidence of effectiveness exists, alongside conventional treatments. Bone Marrow Disorders: Drugs Dementia Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether the drug Peginterferon alfa-2a has been Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State approved by the National Institute for Health and for Health (1) how many staff in a (a) elderly mentally Clinical Excellence for use with patients with essential infirm and (b) standard care home are required to have thrombocythaemia; [320596] a qualification in dementia awareness; [319959] (2) which primary care trusts in (a) London and (b) (2) Health what recent estimate he has made of the the South East have approved the funding for the (a) length of stay in care homes of residents with treatment of essential thrombocythaemia with dementia and (b) proportion of residents in care Peginterferon alfa-2a. [320597] homes with a diagnosis of dementia. [319960]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: Peginterferon alfa-2a is not licensed Phil Hope: The Care Homes Regulations 2001 - for the treatment of essential thrombocythaemia and Regulation 18 - require homes to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has not been asked to appraise it for this condition. “ensure that at all times suitably qualified, competent and experienced persons are working at the care home in such numbers as are Information on primary care trusts’ funding decisions appropriate for the health and welfare of service users”. is not collected centrally. This will include ensuring that there are suitable numbers of staff trained and able to care for residents with Colorectal Cancer: Screening dementia. We are informed by the NHS Information Centre Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health that data on the length of stay in care homes of residents what steps his Department is taking to increase the with dementia and the proportion of residents in care levels of participation in bowel cancer screening homes with a diagnosis of dementia are not collected programmes. [320339] centrally. The Care Quality Commission (CQC) registers care Ann Keen: Primary care trusts (PCTs) are responsible homes under the Care Standards Act 2000 (CSA), for screening services, including the promotion of the which remains operational until 30 September 2010. national health service bowel screening programme. We The CSA makes no provision for a registration category would expect those areas with low bowel screening of “elderly mentally infirm”. Homes are registered with uptake rates to develop targeted programmes to tackle CQC as care homes or care homes with nursing. this locally. Subject to the approval of Parliament, care homes As the bowel cancer screening programme was will be registered from 1 October 2010 under the ’regulated implemented in local areas, NHS Cancer Screening activity’ in which they are engaged - that is, ’accommodation Programmes sent out an information pack to all local for persons who require nursing or personal care’. It general practitioners (GPs). As well as explaining how will be for CQC to decide whether to record detailed the programme works, the packs contained promotional information for each care home, such as whether it information, including posters for GPs to use to promote provides care for people with dementia. the programme in their own practices. The National Awareness and Early Diagnosis Initiative, Health Act 2009 launched in November 2008, is working with NHS Cancer Screening Programmes on key messages and awareness programmes to improve screening uptake, Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for particularly in deprived groups. Health what progress his Department has made on its consultation on the provisions of the Health Act 2009 relating to tobacco; when he expects to (a) publish a Complementary Medicine report on the consultation and (b) lay before Parliament the consequent statutory instruments; and Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement. [320169] what complementary or alternative treatments, medicines or therapies are offered through the National Gillian Merron: On 26 February 2010, the Government Health Service; and what evidence his Department has published “Consultation on proposed tobacco control considered on the efficacy of each. [320578] regulations for England (under the Health Act 2009): 1399W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1400W

Summary of consultation responses”on the Department’s Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health website. A copy has been placed in the Library. what estimate he has made of the proportion of Two sets of regulations for England were laid before funding that local councils will have to contribute to Parliament on 27 January 2010, prohibiting tobacco implementation of the free social care at home scheme. sales from vending machine and regulating tobacco [320272] product prices lists and labels. Two further sets of regulations for England were laid Phil Hope: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave before Parliament on 2 March 2010 regulating the removal to the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) on 10 of tobacco displays and tobacco advertising and display December 2009, Official Report, column 553W. by specialist tobacconists. Leukaemia: Drugs Health Services: Worcestershire Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects to receive the National Institute for pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2010, Official Health and Clinical Excellence’s recommendations on Report, columns 747-48W, on health services: the use of dasatinib and nilotinib for chronic myeloid Worcestershire, what consultation he plans to leukaemia patients. [319180] undertake on the preferred option for the delivery of community services; and what objectives he has set for Mr. Mike O’Brien: I understand that the National that consultation. [320575] Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) currently expects to issue final guidance to the NHS on Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department would not consult the use of dasatinib and nilotinib for the treatment of on proposals in Worcestershire. This is a matter for imatinib-intolerant chronic myeloid leukaemia (CML) Worcestershire primary care trust (PCT). in June 2010. Details of this appraisal are available on ‘Transforming Community Services: The Assurance NICE’S website at: and Approval Process for PCT-provided Community http://guidance.nice.org.uk/TA/Wavel7/18 Services’, makes clear that patients and the public should NICE will schedule the technology appraisal of dasatinib be involved in any proposed service change that may and nilotinib for the treatment of imatinib-resistant arise from an organisational change. This document CML into the review of its published guidance on the has already been placed in the Library. Sustained use of imatinib for the treatment of CML. engagement of patients, public, staff, their unions and representatives, and key stakeholders is essential. This is Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for a process that is managed locally by PCTs, and assured Health how many people with chronic myeloid by strategic health authorities. leukaemia have been prescribed (a) dasatinib and (b) nilotinib in the last 12 months. [319181] Home Care Services: Finance Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not collected centrally Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on the number of people prescribed drugs or for what pursuant to the answer of 8 December 2009, Official purpose drugs are prescribed. Report, column 296W, on social services: finance, from In the period October 2008 to September 2009, the which of his Department’s budgets the remaining £228 latest 12 months available, there were 109 prescriptions million required to fund the provisions of the Personal for dasatinib and less than 100 for nilotinib written in Care at Home Bill will be taken; and how much will be the United Kingdom and dispensed in the community taken from each budget. [318889] in England. Information for hospital prescribing is not available. Phil Hope: In 2010-11, we are meeting half of the full implementation costs—£420 million—as implementation starts from October. These are being met as explained Medical Treatments Abroad in my reply on 8 December 2009, Official Report, column 296W to the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State (Mark Simmonds). for Health what estimate he has made of the number of The remaining half year costs will be found from people referred by NHS commissioners for proton 2011-12. Detailed budget prioritisation decisions for therapy treatment abroad in each of the last five years. 2011-12 onwards will be taken once the outcome of the [319935] next Spending Review is available, as the Department’s total budget beyond 2010-11 is not yet known. Ann Keen: Proton beam therapy became a nationally commissioned service in April 2008. Prior to this, the Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service was commissioned by individual primary care pursuant to the answer of 8 December 2009, Official trusts (PCTs) and figures are not available on the numbers Report, column 296W, on social services: finance, of patients referred for treatment abroad. whether the savings in (a) administration and (b) In 2008-09, 24 patients were referred to the proton management consultancy spending will be made in (i) reference panel for consideration for proton beam therapy his Department and (ii) primary care trusts. [318890] treatment. Of these, eight patients were turned down by the panel, six were not treated by the centre for clinical Phil Hope: The savings will be made in the Department. reasons, and 10 patients were treated. 1401W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1402W

In 2009-10, 67 patients were referred to the proton ‘Endoscope Disinfectants and Detergents’ is a national reference panel. Of these, 30 patients were accepted for framework established in 2009 with nine suppliers. All treatment: and 17 of them received or are currently orders and deliveries are via NHS Supply Chain. There receiving treatment during 2009-10. Six patients were are no mini-competitions or quotations. 186 trusts have accepted by the panel, but were not treated by the centre made purchases against the framework from April 2009 for clinical reasons and three patients require more to the present. surgery before being considered further for proton beam ‘Endoscopy Consumables’ is a national framework therapy. Nine patients are still being considered by the established in 2008 with 10 suppliers. All orders and panel. deliveries are via NHS Supply Chain. There are no Members: Correspondence mini-competitions or quotations. 170 trusts have used the framework to make purchases from April 2009 to the present. Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects to reply to the letter of 2 February ‘Endosurgery’ is a national framework. There have 2010 from the hon. Member for Walsall North concerning been six mini-competitions and 210 trusts have gone a constituent. [320349] though this framework. The framework has 17 suppliers and most purchases are made through NHS Supply Phil Hope: A reply was issued to my hon. Friend on Chain. However, there is a mini-competition option 3 March 2010. whereby trusts can create a local pricing agreement under the coverage of the national framework. Mental Health Services ‘Rigid Endoscopes’ is a national, direct-supply framework. There have been no mini-competitions and Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 120 trusts have gone through this framework. Trusts how many independent investigations into cases of request quotations for equipment from NHS Supply patients receiving treatment for mental health reasons Chain and these quotes are then compiled by suppliers have been commissioned in (a) West Chelmsford and subsequent orders and deliveries are facilitated constituency and (b) England in each of the last five directly. There is an option for mini-competitions but as years. [320351] yet no trusts have chosen this option. There have been 340 contracts awarded though the Phil Hope: I refer the hon. Member to the written ‘Flexible Endoscopy’ framework, with one mini- answer I gave the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire competition. 175 trusts have gone through this framework. (Nadine Dorries) on 22 February 2010, Official Report, The contracts are delivered direct from suppliers against column 134W. this framework. NHS: Negligence There have been 56 contracts awarded through the ‘Automated Endoscope Reprocessors’ framework. 36 Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for trusts have gone though this framework, with no mini- Health how many claims for clinical negligence as a competitions. The contracts are delivered direct from result of NHS hospital mistreatment for which suppliers against this framework. compensation has been awarded were made in each of the last five years; what the monetary value of the five Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health largest payments was in each such year; and which what estimate he has made of the proportion of NHS hospitals were involved. [319913] trusts that have chosen to (a) purchase endoscopy products through NHS Supply Chain’s Framework for Ann Keen: The NHS Litigation Authority covers the Supply of Endoscopy Products and (b) buy claims made against the national health service in England directly from suppliers. [320271] only. Claims are not made under the heading of mistreatment and an answer could be provided only at Mr. Mike O’Brien: This information is not held centrally. disproportionate cost. NHS: Sight Impaired NHS: Procurement Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health (1) what guidance his Department has issued to how many contracts have been awarded through the NHS providers on communication with visually- NHS Supply Chain Framework for the Supply of impaired patients in accessible formats; what systems Endoscopy Products (a) following a mini-competition are in place to monitor the provision of such materials; and (b) under the terms of the framework itself. and if he will make a statement; [319058] [320270] (2) what estimate he has made of the proportion of Mr. Mike O’Brien: NHS Supply Chain has the following visually-impaired patients who received endoscopy framework agreements: communications from NHS providers in accessible formats in each of the last five years; and if he will Endoscope Disinfectants and Detergents make a statement; [319060] Endoscopy Consumables (3) what proportion of (a) hospitals and (b) GP Endosurgery surgeries have used (i) Braille, (ii) large print and (iii) Rigid Endoscopes audio to communicate with visually-impaired patients Flexible Endoscopy in each of the last five years; and if he will make a Automated Endoscope Reprocessors. statement. [319061] 1403W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1404W

Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 25.3 million doses, held centrally, plus the stock currently what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of held in the national health service across the United provision of information in hospitals for blind, Kingdom. partially sighted and print-disabled people. [318895] This is based on the total amount of swine influenza vaccine delivered to the United Kingdom from Baxter Phil Hope: Information on the proportion of national and GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) at approximately 38.5 health service providers that have provided Braille, large million doses, less the total number of doses sent out to print, audio or other accessible communications to the NHS England, up to 24 February, which was patients in general practice (GP) surgeries or hospitals approximately 13.2 million. in each of the last five years is not collected centrally. The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 confers a duty on NHS providers to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people, including making information accessible ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE to people with visual impairments. The NHS Constitution Biofuels also commits the NHS to offer patients accessible information to enable them to participate fully in their health care decisions. Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he Under the Disability Discrimination Act 2005 each has made of the annual requirement for biomass for NHS organisation is required to develop a Disability burning in (a) power stations and (b) for renewable Equality Scheme, based on real engagement with local heat; and what proportion of that requirement (i) is people, including those who are blind or partially sighted. currently imported and (ii) will be imported in each of They are required to implement the action plans set out the next five years. [320002] in their schemes; and report annually on their progress, the results of their information gathering and how this Mr. Kidney [holding answer 3 March 2010]: I refer information has been used. my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Listed Government Departments, including the Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping), Official Report, Department, must publish a report setting out an overview 23 February 2010, column 466W which gave estimates of progress on disability equality as well as proposals for the amount of biomass needed for new power for co-ordinated action between authorities in the sector stations. For existing heat and power installations, the to progress disability equality. The Department’s first Department’s Digest of UK Energy Statistics shows report, which was published in December 2008, that in 2008 3.23 million tonnes (oil equivalent) of acknowledges that patients who are blind or have severe biomass were used to generate electricity and 0.74 million visual impairments report significantly lower levels of tonnes (oil equivalent) of biomass were used to generate satisfaction when making choices following a referral heat. Assuming an average energy value of 18 gigajoules for hospital treatment. The introduction of data broken per tonne of biomass, this gives a total of 7.5 million down by impairment in national GP access and choice tonnes of biomass for electricity generation and 1.7 million surveys will allow NHS organisations in addressing tonnes of biomass for heat generation. such differences in satisfaction levels. Full records are not currently available for the country To support service improvements, the Department of origin of biomass used in the UK. Robust biomass has also co-produced “Improving Access, Responding supply chains are only now becoming established across to Patients: a ‘how to’ guide for GP practices” in 2009. the UK and biomass fuels are increasingly traded as a This guide brings together good practice case studies global commodity. The share of imports will depend on with step-by-step guides and top tips, developed and numerous factors, including progress with developing disseminated by national stakeholders. It has been indigenous supply chains for waste wood, virgin material distributed to every GP practice, primary care trust and and energy crops. Heat-only installations are more likely strategic health authority in England and a copy has to use UK sourced feedstocks. already been placed in the Library. The European Commission’s recently published recommendations for sustainability criteria for solid Putney Hospital: Valuation biomass include a recommendation to monitor the origin of feedstocks. DECC will make an announcement later Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for this month, setting out what actions the Government Health what estimate the district valuer has made of can now take to introduce sustainability standards for the monetary value of the Putney Hospital site in each biomass used for heat and electricity in the UK. We of the last 10 years. [320138] already require sustainability reporting under the renewables obligation. This requirement was introduced in April Mr. Mike O’Brien: This information is not held centrally. 2009 and the first reporting cycle is due later this year. The sustainability report will include data on the type and origin of biomass used for electricity generation. Swine Flu: Vaccination Carbon Emissions Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many units of Swine influenza vaccine are Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for available to be dispensed to UK patients. [319958] Energy and Climate Change with reference to paragraph 7.21, page 123, of the pre-Budget report, Gillian Merron: As of 26 February 2010, the amount Cm 7747, when he plans to publish decarbonisation of swine influenza vaccine available to be dispensed was pathways to 2050. [320374] 1405W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1406W

Joan Ruddock: In the Low Carbon Transition Plan, The main hazardous material that is expected to be the Government committed to publish Pathways to stored at new nuclear power stations will be spent fuel. 2050 in spring 2010. It is the operator’s responsibility to provide storage facilities for the waste produced. Storage facilities will Departmental Paper have to satisfy the requirements of the independent safety, security and environmental regulators. The quantity of spent fuel produced by a single new nuclear power Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for station depends on a number of factors, including the Energy and Climate Change what (a) suppliers and capacity of the plant, its operational lifetime and various (b) brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products his other operational considerations. Department uses; and what his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those materials. [320040] The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) has estimated that an AP-1000 reactor operating for 60 Joan Ruddock: The information is as follows: years would give rise to an estimated 2,560 spent fuel (a) The principal suppliers that the Department has assemblies, equivalent to 640 disposal canisters. And used in the current financial year are Banner Office that a UK EPR reactor operating for 60 years would Supplies, The Office Depot, The Paper Company and give rise to an estimated 3,600 spent fuel assemblies, Lyreco. equivalent to 900 disposal canisters. (b) The most common paper brand used is Evolve It is possible that interim storage facilities for spent 100 per cent. recycled paper. Other brands sourced have fuel could be required for around 160 years (estimated predominantly been the suppliers’ own brands. For 60 years station operating life, 100 years cooling period other paper products the Department uses appropriate prior to disposal). However, the estimate of up to brands that are available from the preferred suppliers 100 years cooling is based on a set of conservative catalogues. It is not possible to identify all of these assumptions and there are a number of factors that may without incurring undue cost. shorten the actual storage period that is likely to be required. The Department’s policy is to source paper that is 100 per cent. recycled wherever possible and that the The actual cooling time required will depend in practice usage of paper is kept to a minimum. All printers and upon the level of burn-up achieved, designs of the photocopiers are set to double sided printing as the disposal package, the disposal concept and design and standard default and printing of e-mails is discouraged. its geological setting, which will all offer scope for optimisation and consequent shortening of the required Energy Conservation storage time. The activity and dose rate of spent fuel from new Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for reactors are presented in the NDA’s Disposability 4 5 Energy and Climate Change how many homes had Assessment Reports for the AP-1000 and UK EPR received assistance under the Community Energy reactors. The NDA concluded in its assessments that Saving Programme on the latest date for which figures the radionuclide characteristics of spent fuel from the are available. [320311] AP-1000 and UK EPR reactors are consistent with those from Sizewell B Pressurised Water Reactor. Joan Ruddock: The Community Energy Saving There will also be other hazardous materials produced. Programme (CESP) went live on 1 September 2009. These will include intermediate level wastes (ILW), low There are currently six CESP schemes that have level wastes (LLW) and non-radioactive hazardous wastes. commenced—one in Walsall, one in Bristol and four in The volume of packaged ILW (both operational and Birmingham. Together these schemes will deliver energy decommissioning) produced by a UK EPR operating efficiency benefits to around 900 households. for 60 years is estimated to be in the range 2,097-3,65lm3 Figures for the number of completed actions in dependent upon the packaging system used. For an households will be available from 1 May 2010 when AP-1000 operating for 60 years, the volume of packaged Ofgem is required to provide its first report to the ILW produced is estimated to be around 3,450m3. Secretary of State. The Government expects that ILW will be safely and securely stored on site as it is for current UK nuclear Energy: Infrastructure power stations. The ILW will be disposed of when a geological disposal facility is available to accept this Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for waste. Energy and Climate Change what estimate his The NDA has assessed the activity and dose rate Department has made of the (a) quantity, (b) from ILW and reported that the principal radionuclides duration of storage and (c) toxicity of the hazardous present in the wastes are similar to those present in the material to be kept on the 11 nuclear power sites wastes arising from Sizewell B Pressurised Water Reactor. assessed in the consultation on the Draft National Policy Statements for Energy Infrastructure. [319968] Long-term storage on site of LLW and non-radioactive hazardous wastes is not expected to take place. Regulators Mr. Kidney: As part of the Draft Nuclear National discourage accumulation of waste at sites of origin if a Policy Statement (NPS) an appraisal of sustainability disposal route is available. These wastes are expected to was carried out. The Main Appraisal of Sustainability be disposed of promptly, after it has been generated, Report1 (Chapter 6) and Annex K2 present the findings through a suitable disposal route. for the arrangements for managing radioactive and 1 DECC. “Appraisal of Sustainability of the draft Nuclear National hazardous wastes arising from the Nuclear NPS. Policy Statement: Main Report.” November 2009: 1407W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1408W http://data.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk/documents/aos/ Mr. Kidney: There are currently 164 assessors contracted mainreport.pdf to the Warm Front scheme. 2 DECC. “Appraisal of Sustainability: Radioactive and Hazardous 185,103 surveys were completed between April 2009 Waste. November 2009.” and January 2010. The number of assessors contracted http://data.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk/documents/aos/ to the scheme has fluctuated over this period; it is not wastematrices.pdf 3 therefore possible to provide an accurate figure for the Burn-up is a measure of the amount of energy extracted for a number of assessments each assessor has carried out given mass of uranium. Units are GWd/tU (gigawatt days per tonne uranium). over the period. 4 NDA. “Geological Disposal Generic Design Assessment: Summary Eaga, the Warm Front scheme manager, is currently of Disposability Assessment for Wastes and Spent Fuel arising considering scheme activity for 2010-11. As part of this, from Operation of the Westinghouse AP1000.” October 2009. eaga will consider the anticipated level of assessments http://www.nda.gov.uk/documents/upload/TN-17548-Generic- to be carried out, which in turn will determine the Design-Assessment-Summary-of-DA-for-Wastes-and-SF- number of assessors required for the year. arising-from-Operation-of-APPWR-October-2009.pdf Wood: Transport 5 NDA. “Geological Disposal Generic Design Assessment: Summary of Disposability Assessment for Wastes and Spent Fuel arising from Operation of the UK EPR.” October 2009. Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy http://www.nda.gov.uk/documents/upload/TN-17548-Generic- and Climate Change what consideration is given to the Design-Assessment-Summary-of-Disposability-Assessment-for- average length of lorry journey in transporting wood Wastes-and-Spent-Fuel-arising-from-Operation-of-the- from the processing plant to the international port in EPWR.pdf assessing the carbon footprint of biomass imports. Energy: Technology [320520]

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Joan Ruddock: The average length of lorry journey in Energy and Climate Change how much his Department transporting wood from the processing plant to the spent promoting the development and deployment of international port is not collated as part of UK biomass (a) low carbon and (b) energy efficiency technology in sustainability reporting. 2008-09; how much such funding has been allocated to However, the Environment Agency are developing a those technologies in each of the next three years; what tool to enable power generators to determine the carbon assessment he has made of the contribution to the emissions associated with their use of biomass. This environmental technology economy made by projects in tool will allow users to model Greenhouse Gas (GHG) each area funded by his Department; and what mechanisms emissions according to feedstock type, agriculture practices are in place to monitor the level of that contribution. and transport mode. [320057] The European Commission’s recently published report for sustainability criteria for solid biomass includes a Joan Ruddock: The principal funding mechanism for recommendation to monitor the origin of feedstocks. demonstrating low carbon and energy efficiency DECC will make a statement later this month, setting technologies in 2008-09 was the Environmental out what actions the Government can now take to Transformation Fund (ETF). In 2008-09 it spent £92 introduce sustainability standards for biomass used for million. Spending figures for 2009-10 will be finalised heat and electricity in the UK. We already require after the end of the financial year. Final allocations for sustainability reporting under the Renewables Obligation. 2010-11 have not been agreed. In addition to the ETF, This requirement was introduced in April 2009 and the in Budget 2009, we announced up to £90 million for first reporting cycle is due later this year. The sustainability FEED studies in support of the first CCS demonstration report will include the available data on the type and competition, and a further £45 million for microgeneration. country of origin of the biomass used for electricity Budget 2009 also announced £155 million for low carbon generation. technologies in 2009-10 and 2010-11. A number of other DECC-funded schemes, such as funding for interest- Written Questions: Government Responses free energy efficiency loans for small and medium enterprises, also support deployment and demonstration Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for of low carbon technologies. Energy and Climate Change when he plans to reply to No formal assessment has been made of the contribution the letter of 7 January 2010 from the right hon. Member to the environmental technology economy consequent for Manchester, Gorton on Ms K Morrison. [319563] on this funding. Economic impact was one of the considerations for allocation of the low carbon investment Joan Ruddock: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of funding announced in 2009. It is our intention to evaluate State for Energy and Climate Change replied to the programmes operated under the ETF and other technology right hon. Member on the 2 March with apologies for support. the delay. Warm Front Scheme BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many Warm Front assessors Palaeography: Universities have been contracted to the Warm Front scheme; how many assessments each assessor carried out on average 7. Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Minister of State, in the latest period for which figures are available; and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what how many assessors his Department expects to remain estimate he has made of the number of places available under contract from 1 May 2010. [320263] for the study of palaeography at universities. [320198] 1409W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1410W

Mr. Lammy: I last met the director general of the Letter from Peter Mason, dated 1 February 2010: Russell Group on 23 February. We discussed higher I am responding in respect of the National Measurement education funding, among other subjects. Office to your Parliamentary Question, tabled on 20 January, to the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Departmental Manpower Skills asking how many employees are in transition prior to being managed out; how long on average the transition window between Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, notification and exit has been in each of the last five years; and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how for estimates of the salary costs of staff in transition in each such year together with the proportion of employees in transition many employees in (a) his Department and (b) each which were classed as being so for more than six months in each of its agencies are in transition prior to being managed year. out; how long on average the transition window There are currently no employees within the Agency who have between notification and exit has been in (i) his been officially declared surplus. Department and its predecessors and (ii) each of its With regard to the position over the last five years, I am agencies in each of the last five years; what estimate he advised that I am unable, on grounds of confidentiality, to has made of the salary costs of staff in transition in provide information where there are less than five people in this each such year; and what proportion of employees in category. There is, however, one instance that is in the public transition were classed as being so for more than six domain—described on page 33 of the 2007-2008 Annual Report months in each year. [313245] and Accounts of the Agency (then known as the National Weights & Measures Laboratory). Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation Letter from Sean Dennehey, dated 25 January 2010: and Skills (BIS) was created in June 2009 from the I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office former Department for Innovation for Universities and to your Parliamentary Question tabled 20 January 2010, to the Skills (DIUS) and former Department for Business, Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR). DIUS was Skills. created in 2007 from the former DTI and the Department The Intellectual Property Office began its first redeployment for Education and Skills. exercise in April 2009. A total of 48 staff were declared surplus in 2009/10 and therefore in transition prior to being managed out. A Between July 2004 and the end of 2006, the Department total of 40 staff have been redeployed, 19 to internal vacancies of Trade and Industry had 488 people in transition; the and 21 externally. There are currently 8 staff in transition. On average transition for these people was approximately average, the 40 staff redeployed remained in the transition for three months; no estimate was made of the salary costs 4 months. The budgeted salary cost for this exercise was £425k. of these staff during this period and approximately 16 people were in transition for more than 6 months. 17 per cent. of employees in transition were classed as Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 22 January 2010: being surplus for more than six months. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary During 2007, DI/BERR had 491 people in transition; Question tabled 20 January 2010, UIN 313245, to the Minister of the average transition was seven weeks; no estimate was State for Business, Innovation and Skills. made of the salary costs of these staff during this Companies House has not managed out any employees from period and approximately 5 per cent. of those in transition the Agency in the last five years. were classed as being surplus for more than six months. DIUS had nobody who was classed as surplus. Departmental Marketing During 2008, there were fewer than five people in transition in BERR. Further information is therefore Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, suppressed on grounds of confidentiality. The information Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how was not collected in former DIUS. many brand managers his Department and its During 2009 the Department (DIUS and BERR and predecessors have employed in each of the last five then BIS) had 11 people in transition; the average years; and at what cost. [320408] transition was 10 weeks; no estimate was made of the salary costs of these staff during this period and Mr. McFadden: This Department has one member of approximately 35 per cent. of those in transition were staff responsible for managing the Department’s brand. classed as being surplus for more than six months. This includes the publication and dissemination of the brand guidelines and advising on their application. It is I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency estimated that 25 per cent. of this person’s time is spent Service, Companies House, the National Measurement on branding related activities. Based on the average pay Office and the Intellectual Property Office and they will costs for a member of staff at this grade this represents respond to the hon. Member directly. a staff cost of approximately £11,241 in 2009/10. Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 4 March 2010: The former Department for Business, Enterprise and The Minister of State, for the Department for Business, Innovation Regulatory Reform (BERR) and the former Department and Skills (BIS) has asked me to reply to your question regarding for Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS) each had how many employees in (a) his Department and (b) each of its agencies are in transition prior to being managed out; how long one member of staff responsible for brand management. on average the transition window between notification and exit The average pay costs for this were: has been in (i) his Department and its predecessors and (ii) each of its agencies in each of the last five years; what estimate he has £ made of the salary costs of staff in transition in each such year; and what proportion of employees in transition were classed as BERR 2008/09 11,653 being so for more than six months in each year. BERR/DTI 2007/08 10,512 The Insolvency Service has not had any staff in transition within the last five years prior to being managed out, therefore no Figures for staff costs for earlier years could be estimation of salary costs was necessary. provided only at disproportionate cost. 1411W Written Answers4 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1412W

Information Act. The minutes of the 9 December 2009 £ meeting were published on the LSC’s website on 26 DIUS 2008/09 6,300 February 2010. These can be found at: DIUS 2007/08 12,000 www.lsc.gov.uk The figure for DIUS in 2007/08 is the total staff cost Minimum Wage: Glasgow on branding activity as a larger percentage of staff time was spent on branding issues in the first six months of Mr. Bain: To ask the Minister of State, Department the Department’s existence. for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in Glasgow North East constituency aged (a) between 18 Higher Education: Day Care and 21 and (b) 22 years and over have been paid at the rate of the national minimum wage since its introduction. [319970] Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. McFadden: Data for earnings are not available at recent representations he has received on the provision the constituency level because of small sample sizes at of child care places by universities for students with these levels in the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings young children. [320201] (ASHE). Mr. Lammy: I have received joint representations Due to rounding in the conversion of payroll data about nursery closures from the National Union of into hourly wage rates and small sample sizes for 18 to Students, the University and College Union and UNISON. 21-year-olds in ASHE, it is not possible at the regional The provision of nurseries for the children of students level to infer the number of employees earning exactly is a matter for individual institutions. In addition to the at the National Minimum Wage (NMW) with sufficient standard student support package, the Government certainty. However it is possible to estimate the number provides generous support to help students with children. who were paid at or below the NMW. A child care grant of up to £13,260 per year is available The most recent figure from BIS analysis of the 2009 for eligible full-time, undergraduate students with children ASHE indicates the number of jobholders aged 18 to 21 in registered and approved child care. In addition, for who were paid at or below the NMW in April 2009 in academic year 2009/10, student parents may also receive Scotland was 11,000. The number of jobholders aged a parents’ learning allowance of up to £1,508 to meet 22 and over who were paid at or below the NMW in course-related costs. Scotland was 51,000. Science: Research Learning and Skills Council for England Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects the had been (a) allocated to and (b) disbursed from the Learning and Skills Council to publish on its website Science and Research Budget to the (i) Large Facilities the minutes of its National Council Meeting on Capital fund, (ii) University Capital fund, (iii) Higher 9 December 2009. [320275] Education Innovation fund, (iv) Public Sector Research Establishments fund, (v) Science and Society fund and Kevin Brennan: The acting chief executive of the (vi) other programmes funded from that Budget in Learning and Skills Council has recently undertaken a 2009-10 on the latest date for which figures are available. review of its National Council minutes and decided to [319844] make public the full minutes from these meetings, subject to the redaction of any sensitive or confidential information Mr. Lammy: The Science and Research Budget funding which is exempt under the terms of the Freedom of figures for 2009-10 are as follows:

£ million Allocated 2009-10 Expenditure to 31 January 2010

(i) Large Facilities Capital Fund1 138 3— (ii) Research Capital investment Fund1 258 194 (iii) Higher Education Innovation Fund2 99 73 (iv) Public Sector Research Establishments Fund2 12 11 (v) Science and Society activities2 15 10 (vi) Other programmes2 95 1 Capital programme. 2 Near Cash programme. 3 There is no expenditure recorded against the Large Facilities Capital Fund as this fund is used to make additional allocations to research councils for approved projects. To date £172 million has been allocated to research councils which includes £50 million of capital allocation brought forwards from 2010-11 under the capital acceleration scheme. Note: These figures do not include the allocations to and the expenditure of the research councils and the national academies.

15MC Ministerial Corrections4 MARCH 2010 Ministerial Corrections 16MC

made reference to 69 countries accounting for nearly Ministerial Correction 90 per cent. of global emissions. It should have said that these countries account for 80 per cent. of global emissions. Thursday 4 March 2010 The correct answer should have been:

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Joan Ruddock: Since Copenhagen, we have seen support for the Copenhagen Accord grow. As of 22 February Climate Change: International Cooperation 2010, 69 countries had listed targets/actions in the Accord Mr. Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to limit their greenhouse gas emissions. These countries and Climate Change pursuant to the answer to the hon. account for 80 per cent. of global emissions. This willingness Member for Congleton of 7 January 2010, Official of many countries to take substantial domestic action, Report, column 628W, on climate change: Copenhagen, demonstrates that—with ambition—the international what his most recent assessment is of the likelihood of community has the opportunity to come together to effective global action to limit climate change; and if he tackle dangerous climate change effectively. will make a statement. [318584] But there is still more to do. We must continue to [Official Report, 1 March 2010, Vol. 506, c. 903W.] encourage these countries to deliver the most ambitious Letter of correction from Joan Ruddock: end of their offers if we are to deliver our goal of An error has been identified in the written answer limiting global warming to 2 degrees Celsius. And we given to the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-East will continue to campaign for countries to include these (Mr. Bain) on 1 March 2010. Paragraph 1 of the answer offers in a comprehensive legally binding treaty.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 4 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 995 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Access to Credit ...... 1008 National Investment Corporation...... 1001 Apprenticeships (West Midlands)...... 1003 Online Fraud...... 995 Bank Lending (Businesses) ...... 1007 Queen’s Diamond Jubilee...... 1003 Business Credit ...... 1005 Royal Mail ...... 998 Euro (UK Membership)...... 1008 Science Budget...... 1007 Higher Education...... 1006 Sector Skills Councils...... 1000 Insolvency Service...... 1009 Topical Questions ...... 1009 Late Payments...... 998 University Funding...... 996 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 4 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 115WS JUSTICE...... 117WS Town and Country Planning...... 115WS Arrest Warrants (Universal Jurisdiction)...... 117WS HEALTH...... 116WS GP Practices (Registration)...... 116WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 117WS TREASURY ...... 115WS Immigration and Asylum (War Crimes)...... 117WS Equitable Life ...... 115WS PETITION

Thursday 4 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Badman Report (North Devon) ...... 19P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 4 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1408W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Departmental Manpower...... 1409W Class Sizes: Salford ...... 1387W Departmental Marketing ...... 1410W Pre-school Education: Leeds...... 1387W Higher Education: Day Care...... 1411W Pupil Exclusions...... 1388W Learning and Skills Council for England ...... 1411W Sports: Primary Education...... 1393W Minimum Wage: Glasgow...... 1412W Palaeography: Universities ...... 1408W Science: Research ...... 1412W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1328W Departmental Advertising...... 1328W CABINET OFFICE...... 1337W Departmental Theft ...... 1328W Census: Sikhs ...... 1337W Derelict Land: Regeneration ...... 1329W Departmental Buildings...... 1338W Homes and Communities Agency and Tenant Departmental Paper...... 1338W Services Authority: Equality ...... 1329W Exports ...... 1338W Housing: Chelmsford ...... 1329W Honours...... 1339W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 1329W Hotels ...... 1339W Regional Planning and Development...... 1329W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 1339W Social Rented Housing: Finance ...... 1330W Social Workers: Females ...... 1340W Supported Housing: Young People ...... 1331W Trade Unions ...... 1340W Unemployment ...... 1341W Voluntary Work ...... 1341W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1304W Departmental Languages...... 1304W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1385W Departmental Paper...... 1304W Cadet Forces ...... 1385W Departmental Public Relations ...... 1305W Children: Day Care ...... 1386W Digital Broadcasting: Northern Ireland ...... 1305W Children’s Centres: South West ...... 1387W National Lottery: Sports...... 1305W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1323W HEALTH—continued Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1323W Aortic Aneurysm: Screening ...... 1394W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1323W Basildon and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Army: Lost Property...... 1324W Foundation Trust...... 1396W Army: National Bullying Helpline ...... 1325W Bone Marrow Disorders: Drugs...... 1397W Cadet Forces ...... 1325W Colorectal Cancer: Screening ...... 1397W Defence Equipment ...... 1326W Complementary Medicine...... 1397W Departmental Buildings...... 1326W Dementia ...... 1398W Departmental Paper...... 1327W Health Act 2009...... 1398W Military Bases: Security ...... 1328W Health Services: Worcestershire ...... 1399W Home Care Services: Finance ...... 1399W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1404W Leukaemia: Drugs ...... 1400W Biofuels...... 1404W Medical Treatments Abroad...... 1400W Carbon Emissions...... 1404W Members: Correspondence ...... 1401W Departmental Paper...... 1405W Mental Health Services ...... 1401W Energy Conservation...... 1405W NHS: Negligence ...... 1401W Energy: Infrastructure...... 1405W NHS: Procurement ...... 1401W Energy: Technology ...... 1407W NHS: Sight Impaired ...... 1402W Warm Front Scheme ...... 1407W Putney Hospital: Valuation...... 1403W Wood: Transport...... 1408W Swine Flu: Vaccination ...... 1403W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1408W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1372W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Alcoholic Drinks: Fixed Penalties...... 1372W AFFAIRS...... 1349W Arrests: Young People...... 1371W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 1349W Asylum: Newcastle upon Tyne...... 1373W Air Pollution ...... 1350W Departmental Grants...... 1373W Animal Feed ...... 1350W Departmental Internet ...... 1374W Animal Welfare ...... 1351W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 1374W Biodiversity...... 1351W Deportation: Commonwealth ...... 1375W Biofuels: Boilers...... 1351W Deportation: Offenders...... 1377W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 1352W Electronic Government: International Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 1352W Cooperation...... 1378W Eels ...... 1353W Entry Clearances: Skilled Workers ...... 1378W Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Human Trafficking ...... 1378W Regulations 2010...... 1353W Identity and Passport Service...... 1381W Fish: Conservation...... 1353W Identity and Passport Service: Manpower...... 1381W Fisheries...... 1354W Identity Cards ...... 1381W Fuel Oil: Recycling...... 1356W Identity Cards: EU Action...... 1382W Incinerators...... 1356W Illegal Immigrants: Employment...... 1382W Moorland: Environment Protection...... 1356W Immigration Controls ...... 1382W Nanotechnology ...... 1357W Local Government Finance ...... 1383W Origin Marking: Israel ...... 1357W Members: Correspondence ...... 1383W Renewable Energy: Fuel Oil ...... 1358W Metropolitan Police ...... 1383W Renewable Energy: Waste ...... 1358W Passports: Fraud ...... 1384W River Severn...... 1359W Police: Bureaucracy...... 1384W Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection...... 1359W Prison Sentences: Deportation ...... 1385W Slaughterhouses ...... 1359W Trees: Urban Areas ...... 1360W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1342W Waste Disposal ...... 1360W Palace of Westminster...... 1342W Waste Disposal: EC Action...... 1360W Regional Committees...... 1342W Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations ...... 1361W JUSTICE...... 1343W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1305W Convictions: Essex ...... 1343W Afghanistan: Politics and Government ...... 1305W Departmental Plants ...... 1343W Broadcasting: Iran ...... 1306W Driving Offences ...... 1344W Cyprus ...... 1306W Legal Aid Scheme: Negligence ...... 1344W Departmental Assets...... 1306W Prisoners ...... 1345W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1307W Prisons: Mobile Phones...... 1346W Departmental Manpower...... 1307W Prisons: Overcrowding ...... 1346W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1308W Repossession Orders: Chelmsford ...... 1347W Departmental Wines ...... 1310W Diplomatic Service: Manpower...... 1310W PRIME MINISTER ...... 1304W Egypt: Christianity...... 1310W Building Resilience...... 1304W G20: Public Relations ...... 1311W HIV Infection ...... 1311W PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 1349W India: Christianity...... 1312W Illegal Immigrants...... 1349W Niger: Politics and Government...... 1312W Trade Unions ...... 1349W Nuclear Weapons: Proliferation ...... 1312W SCOTLAND...... 1348W HEALTH...... 1393W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 1348W Abortion ...... 1393W Departmental Paper...... 1348W Col. No. Col. No. SCOTLAND—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 1348W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 1335W Scottish Government ...... 1348W Presbyterian Mutual Society ...... 1335W Public Sector...... 1335W TRANSPORT ...... 1361W Rates and Rating: Caravan Sites ...... 1335W Aviation: Exhaust Emissions ...... 1361W Revenue and Customs: Correspondence ...... 1336W Capita Group...... 1362W Revenue and Customs: Surveys...... 1336W Departmental Buildings...... 1362W Revenue and Customs: Television ...... 1336W Departmental Internet ...... 1363W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 1336W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1363W Taxation: Overseas Income ...... 1337W Departmental Paper...... 1363W Valuation Office Agency: Contracts...... 1337W Directly Operated Railways and East Coast Main Valuation Office Agency: North East...... 1337W Line Company ...... 1364W WALES...... 1303W Driving: Licensing...... 1364W Departmental Correspondence ...... 1303W Driving Tests: Motorcycles ...... 1364W Departmental Energy...... 1303W Exhaust Emissions ...... 1365W Departmental ICT ...... 1303W Grimsby...... 1365W Departmental Internet ...... 1303W Local Government: Statistics ...... 1366W Departmental Paper...... 1303W M40: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 1366W Media and Communications Team: Manpower ..... 1304W Motorways: Accidents ...... 1368W Motorways: Road Traffic ...... 1367W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1313W Motorways: Standards...... 1368W Carer’s Allowance: Gwent...... 1313W Official Engagements ...... 1369W Departmental Cleaning Services ...... 1313W Petrol: Ethanol...... 1369W Departmental Consultants...... 1313W Railways: Bexley ...... 1369W Departmental Contracts ...... 1313W Railways: Poole...... 1370W Departmental NDPBs...... 1314W Railways: Standards...... 1370W Departmental Plants ...... 1314W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 1369W Departmental Public Consultation...... 1314W Waterloo Station ...... 1371W Disability Living Allowance...... 1315W Employment ...... 1315W TREASURY ...... 1331W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 1316W Alcoholic Drinks: Fraud ...... 1331W Equality 2025...... 1316W Banks: Manpower...... 1331W Health Services: Isle of Man ...... 1316W Building Societies: Regulation...... 1332W Incapacity Benefit ...... 1317W Child Benefit: Foreigners ...... 1332W New Deal Schemes...... 1317W Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Pensioners: Poverty ...... 1318W Act 2008...... 1333W Social Security Benefits...... 1319W Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 1333W Social Security Benefits: Fibromyalgia...... 1319W Gift Aid ...... 1333W State Retirement Pensions...... 1320W Housing: Valuation ...... 1334W Vauxhall...... 1320W Members: Correspondence ...... 1334W Work Capability Assessment...... 1322W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 4 March 2010

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not later than Thursday 11 March 2010

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CONTENTS

Thursday 4 March 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 995] [see index inside back page] Minister of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Business of the House [Col. 1017] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 1035] Motion—(Mr. Hanson)—agreed to

Business of the House [Col. 1052] Motion—(Ms Harman)—agreed to

Chair (Terminology) [Col. 1062] Motion—(Ms Harman)—on a Division agreed to

Election of Committee Chairs [Col. 1088] Motion—(Ms Harman) Amendment—(Mr. Chope)—agreed to Amendment—(Mr. Chope)—on a Division, agreed to Amendment—(Mr. Leigh)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Resignation or Removal of Chairs of Select Committees [Col. 1094] Motion—(Ms Harman)—agreed to

Election of Members of Select Committees [Col. 1095] Motion—(Ms Harman) Amendment—(Mr. Alan Williams)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Backbench Business Committee [Col. 1095] Motion—(Ms Harman) Amendment—(Sir George Young)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Dr. Tony Wright)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Election of the Deputy Speakers [Col. 1099] Motion—(Ms Harman)—agreed to

Crown Estate (Proposed Sale of Homes) [Col. 1101] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Social Security [Col. 1109] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Licences and Licensing [Col. 1112] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Global Security (Non-Proliferation) [Col. 325WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 115WS] Petition [Col. 19P] Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1303W] [see index inside back page] Ministerial Correction [Col. 15MC]