Wednesday Volume 573 15 January 2014 No. 104

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 15 January 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 833 15 JANUARY 2014 834

to 2% yesterday. We will continue to give people support, House of Commons in particular with our triple lock on pensions that delivered the biggest ever single cash increase in the Wednesday 15 January 2014 state pension, and we will continue to deal with the deficit. The real threat to the cost of living would be a Labour Government, who would put up taxes and see The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock interest rates increased.

PRAYERS 12. [901930] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that the real way to deal with [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] cost of living issues is to pursue economic growth with a long-term strategy to rebalance the economy, and that that applies to Northern Ireland, particularly in Oral Answers to Questions engineering and manufacturing? Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The only way to achieve a sustainable increase in living NORTHERN IRELAND standards is to run the economy efficiently and effectively, and to have a credible plan to deal with the deficit. That The Secretary of State was asked— is the way we can keep interest rates low and deal with inflation, and that is the way we can make this country a Cost of Living wealthier place. 1. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What steps she is taking to address the rising cost of living in Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Some disreputable people try to reduce the cost living by Northern Ireland. [901918] smuggling fuel across the border with the Republic of 4. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Ireland. What steps are being taken to combat this What steps she is taking to address the rising cost of menace? living in Northern Ireland. [901921] Mrs Villiers: There is very effective cross-border working. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa There is also very effective working between the Northern Villiers): The actions the Government are taking to help Ireland Executive and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. with the cost of living include freezing fuel duty, cutting We take this matter very seriously. My hon. Friend the income tax bills, delivering the biggest ever single cash Exchequer Secretary has been looking with care at the increase in the state pension and helping to keep interest different proposals for new marker technology. I expect rates low by dealing with the deficit. progress on that to be announced very soon.

Ann McKechin: The Secretary of State may be aware Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): One in three people, that last year the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary in response to Shelter Northern Ireland questionnaires, Action confirmed that Belfast, with an expected loss of stated that this year they will struggle to pay their rent £840 per adult of working age, will be hit harder than or mortgage payments and that child care costs take up any other major city in Britain. Will she advise the a large part of their budget. What discussions has the House on what specific steps she is taking to address the Secretary of State had with the Department for Work cost of living, given the depth and scale of the problem and Pensions to raise the child care element for full-time in Northern Ireland? working families? Mrs Villiers: As I have said, the Government take this issue very seriously. That is why fuel duty today is Mrs Villiers: The introduction of universal credit in 20 pence per litre lower than it would have been if we Northern Ireland will make about 102,000 people better had stuck with the previous Government’s plans; that is off, according to Social Development Minister Nelson why we have cut income tax for about 618,000 people in McCausland, who also commented that that would lift Northern Ireland and taken 75,000 out of income tax 10,000 children out of poverty. Our welfare reforms are altogether; and that is why people on the minimum designed to incentivise work. Getting people into work wage will see their income tax bills halved by April. is the best way to deal with poverty and we will continue to push forward with welfare reform. John Robertson: I wonder whether the Secretary of State can tell us what her assessment is of the Advice NI Security social policy report, which confirms that over 11 food banks have opened in Northern Ireland since 2012. Is she happy with that? If not, what does she plan to do 2. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) about it? (Con): What recent assessment she has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and if she will Mrs Villiers: Of course it is a matter of regret that make a statement. [901919] anyone feels the need to go to a food bank, but the Government are doing everything they can to support 6. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): What people on low incomes with the cost of living. I hope recent discussions she has had on security in Northern the Opposition will welcome the fact that inflation fell Ireland. [901923] 835 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 836

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): If I may, Mr Speaker, I Villiers): The threat level in Northern Ireland remains would like to pay tribute to Paul Goggins, not only a severe, with persistent planning and targeting by terrorists, good friend of mine but a brilliant security Minister as illustrated by the attacks that took place before who served under me in Northern Ireland. His funeral Christmas. However, action by the Police Service of is tomorrow. Northern Ireland and its partners continues to keep How can the Secretary of State justify her answer to those groups under pressure. my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), given that the additional security budget, Oliver Colvile: Before Christmas, the Select Committee which the PSNI is entitled to apply for, has been halved on Northern Ireland Affairs went to Belfast and met this year compared with the past three years—and this the Parades Commission. We learnt about the budgetary at a time of rising dissident threats, as we saw in Belfast challenges facing the PSNI. Will my right hon. Friend city centre before Christmas? review giving the Northern Ireland Executive the same powers as all other parts of the UK to levy a policing precept? Mrs Villiers: It is just not true that it has been halved. The Government take very seriously their security responsibilities in Northern Ireland, which is why we Mrs Villiers: The future resourcing of the PSNI is have provided additional funds for the PSNI to deal certainly a matter of concern to many in this House. It with the deteriorating security situation we inherited is within the powers of the Department of Justice to from the previous Government. We will continue to be introduce precepting, if it chose to do so. That does not vigilant. In particular, we will continue to work closely require legislation or further devolution from this House; with Irish counterparts on deepening and strengthening it is a matter for the Department to decide. Very constructive the cross-border co-operation that is crucial to keeping discussions are underway between the Department of Northern Ireland safe and secure. Finance and Personnel, the Department of Justice and the PSNI, with a view to resolving the resourcing question, in particular with regard to the comprehensive spending Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On policing review year 2015-16. and security and in the context of the recent Haass talks on the past, especially past terrorist crimes, will the Secretary of State take it from me that Martin McGuinness’s Pamela Nash: With the public rightly concerned after comments last night about extremism are seen by many the stalemate reached in the Haass talks and the severe on both sides of the community as not only untrue but security threats faced by Christmas shoppers in Belfast, a transparent attempt to distract from Sinn Fein’s abject to which the Secretary of State referred, as well as the lack of leadership in addressing its continued glorification huge costs of £55,000 a day of policing contentious of past terrorist crimes, as witnessed in Castlederg this parades in Northern Ireland, will she tell us whether summer, which is causing huge damage to community 2014 is really the right time to be cutting the funds to relations? Will she urge Sinn Fein to stop wallowing in the PSNI, or are the Government going to reconsider the filth of murder? that decision?

Mrs Villiers: The PSNI is actually receiving additional Mrs Villiers: I encourage all party leaders to continue funds from the Government—£200 million over the working on the Haass issues. Perhaps the more important current spending review period and about £30 million thing to draw from last night’s meeting of party leaders in 2015-16—and as I have said, discussions continue was the welcome news that they would reassemble next between the PSNI and the Northern Ireland Executive week and that these discussions would continue. There over whether further funding can be added from the is an important opportunity here still to be seized by the Executive in 2015-16. political parties to make real progress on these divisive issues by resolving their differences and reaching agreement. Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Patten recommended that in a peaceful situation, the PSNI Mr Dodds: I, too, want to see those talks take place, should have a minimum of 7,500 officers. Given that and we hope that all parties, including Sinn Fein, will Northern Ireland is not exactly in that peaceful situation, come to the table and negotiate in good faith, but will owing to paramilitary activity, is the Secretary of State the Secretary of State recognise that severe damage has concerned about the PSNI’s ability to recruit sufficient been done to policing, and to the capacity of the officers? policing and justice system to tackle the security situation, by decisions such as the one recently to issue one of Mrs Villiers: I am grateful to the Chairman of the those most involved in glorifying past terrorist crimes— Northern Ireland Select Committee for his question Gerry Kelly—with an informed warning, rather than to and his important work on this issue. The current prosecute him, even though the threshold for prosecution number of officers in the PSNI is 6,795. The Chief was reached, for obstructing the police during a very Constable recently told the Policing Board that the tense parades situation? Does she not see the damage minimum number he needed to perform effectively was that this sort of situation is creating? 6,963. It is important that consideration be given to how the shortfall can be dealt with, and as I have said, I Mrs Villiers: I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s remain optimistic about the ongoing discussions between point. I would urge all elected representatives to do all the Department of Finance and Personnel and the they can to support police officers in the execution of Department of Justice about resolving that budgetary their duties which, in Northern Ireland, can sometimes shortfall. be extremely difficult and highly sensitive. 837 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 838

Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): As other hon. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office Members have said, Northern Ireland faces a number (Mr Andrew Robathan): We have worked hard with the of security challenges at the start of this new year: the Executive to adapt our reforms flexibly to the circumstances terrorist threat from dissident republicans and the potential of Northern Ireland. These reforms will ensure that threat to law and order posed by the downgrading of work always pays and will help to lift people out of the Parades Commission. In the light of those risks, will poverty by moving them into work. When fully the Secretary of State assure us—and give a specific implemented, universal credit will make around 3 million answer—that the PSNI has an adequate number of low-to-middle-income households across the UK better front-line police officers to cope with these challenges, off. and, specifically in respect of the terrorist threat, that she is liaising with Home Office colleagues to ensure Ian Paisley: The number of people living in poverty proper police co-ordination across the United Kingdom? in Northern Ireland has increased from 18% in 2002 to 22% in 2013. In reality, that means that one in four Mrs Villiers: On the last point, I had the opportunity people in Ulster earns and lives on a salary that falls to discuss Northern Ireland matters with the Home below the basic standard of living. Will the Minister Secretary yesterday, and my officials stay in regular take the opportunity to give us an assurance that the touch with Home Office colleagues. The hon. Gentleman cuts—the deeper and further cuts—talked about by the probably did not hear my earlier answer. There are Chancellor of the Exchequer will not force more people currently 6,795 officers in the PSNI, while the Chief into poverty in Northern Ireland? Constable believes that he needs 6,963, so there is a shortfall and the Chief Constable wishes to start recruiting Mr Robathan: I am not in a position to know what once again. The UK Government are anxious to ensure further cuts to the welfare budget the Chancellor may that that is possible. That is one of the reasons why we be planning. Northern Ireland receives more than a have allocated additional national security funding. We quarter more in Government spending per head in are also working with the DOJ to ensure that discussions comparison with constituencies such as mine in England with the DFP reach a satisfactory conclusion on the and, indeed, all English constituencies. It is a fact that Northern Ireland Executive’s contribution. Nelson McCausland specifically said that more people will be lifted out of poverty by universal credit, including Mr Lewis: That shortfall is a serious concern, and it is some 10,000 children. I am sure the hon. Gentleman important that the Secretary of State does something would welcome that. We are not immune to understanding about it. people’s concerns, but we believe that it is work, not Turning to another issue, I had the privilege yesterday welfare, that will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland. of meeting representatives of the Disabled Police Officers Association of Northern Ireland. I heard first hand the Mr Speaker: We are greatly indebted to the Minister. moving and disturbing testimonies of retired police officers who suffered lasting physical and mental scars Julie Hilling: But does the right hon. Gentleman through their work on the front line during the troubles. agree with the Minister of State, Department for Work Does the Secretary of State accept that we owe a great and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead debt of gratitude to these retired officers, and will she (Mike Penning) that Northern Ireland is “getting the make representations to Ministers in the Northern Ireland best deal” on welfare when changes could potentially Executive about the erosion of their injury pension take £450 million per annum out of vulnerable people’s rights? pockets? Mrs Villiers: The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Mr Robathan: I do not recognise the figures that the Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for South hon. Lady has quoted. What we wish to see is people in Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) met the Disabled Police work. Unfortunately, the last Government left this country Officers Association of Northern Ireland, and I would with the most appalling financial and economic catastrophe. like to associate myself with the shadow Secretary of All that the hon. Lady, her Front-Bench team and the State’s comments to the effect that we owe them a huge Leader of the Opposition can suggest is more spending, debt of gratitude. The representations made at that more borrowing, more taxes and more debt, which will meeting will, of course, be taken up with the Northern plunge us back into the disaster they left behind. Ireland Executive. My understanding is that decisions on these matters lie primarily within the devolved field. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Chancellor has Welfare Reform indicated that he is considering a new regime for annually managed expenditure, with an overall cap on welfare spending. Does the Minister believe that that will entail 3. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): What a cap within a cap for Northern Ireland’s welfare spending, assessment she has made of the potential effect in and what discussions is the Northern Ireland Office Northern Ireland of the Government’s proposed having with the Treasury and the devolved Administration further reductions in welfare expenditure. [901920] about the serious implications of such a development?

7. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What recent Mr Robathan: Officials are always discussing things assessment she has made of the effect of the with the Treasury, Indeed, an excellent young man who Government’s welfare reform policies on Northern works for us has just come from the Treasury to increase Ireland. [901924] liaison. 839 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 840

Northern Ireland cannot be exempt from that which Mrs Villiers: I agree that it is always important for the is affecting the rest of the United Kingdom. The Belfast police to be fair and even-handed, and I believe that Telegraph has said that the Northern Irish cannot pretend they have shown those qualities in dealing with all the that they can public order incidents that have occurred in recent “have it both ways; that we can continue to benefit from the years. I know that they take their duties of fairness, Treasury—we get back more than we raise in taxes—while people even-handedness and respect for human rights very in other parts of the UK suffer from the reforms… we cannot seriously. I urge those who might become involved in expect that situation to continue indefinitely.” violent protests not to do so, because such action is I think that the hon. Gentleman, who is a serious and disastrous for them and negative for the community, grown-up politician, will realise that as well. and, of course, I urge all elected representatives to support the police in every possible way, given the Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I am relieved, difficult duties that they must fulfil. as the whole House will be, that a “young man” is currently striving to bring light to this area. We wish Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Obviously, the him well. need to deal with public order issues and to try to In May 2010 the Conservative party in Northern contain the threat from dissident republicans requires Ireland, then sailing under the flag of the Ulster an increasing number of police officers. It is therefore Conservatives and Unionists—New Force, or UCUNF, extremely worrying that a steady flow of experienced was comprehensively rejected by the voters. In the light police officers is haemorrhaging away from the Police of that, how can the Minister justify the continuing Service of Northern Ireland every single month. What distress caused by the rolling threat of the imposition of assurances has the Secretary of State managed to extract a £5 million fine on the Northern Ireland Executive, from the Treasury that there will be funds to guarantee and will he tell us when, this month, the sanction will recruitment to the PSNI? commence? Mr Robathan: If the hon. Gentleman wants to go Mrs Villiers: A guaranteed total of £200 million in back to May 2010, I think he might note that the good the current spending review and £30 million in the next people of England comprehensively rejected the Labour will be provided to assist the PSNI in its national party and all its works at that time, which I think was security work, which will of course enable it to be more pretty sensible of them. effective across the board. As I said in response to earlier questions, the Executive and the PSNI are currently As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are looking after discussing the additional funding that will be needed in the interests of everyone in the United Kingdom. For 2015-16 to enable the PSNI to commence the recruitment instance, 1.6 million private sector jobs have been created that the Chief Constable believes is necessary. since 2010, including jobs in Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] As has been explained to the Northern Ireland Executive, the sanction on welfare has not yet Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Given the impact been imposed because the Treasury cannot impose it that public order has on policing and budgets in Northern unilaterally. But might I say that the First Minister— Ireland, does the Secretary of State agree that the recommendations in the Haass report, which stated Mr Speaker: Order. We have other questions to get that there should be a legally enforceable code of conduct through. for all parades and protests, would go a long way to Public Order changing behaviour on the ground?

5. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): What recent Mrs Villiers: There is much to be said for the proposals discussions she has had with the Chief Constable of on parading in draft seven of Richard Haass’s work. It Northern Ireland on public order in Northern Ireland. is disappointing that the parties have not felt able to [901922] agree with those proposals as yet. Further work is clearly needed before we can get an agreement among The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa the five parties. I urge them to see whether they can Villiers): Public order issues are primarily a matter for find a way to resolve their differences, including on the the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable, in line issue of a code of conduct and what sanctions should with the devolution settlement. However, I meet them accompany it. both regularly to discuss a range of issues, which often include public order matters. Accident and Emergency Doctors Sammy Wilson: Does the Secretary of State share the concern felt by many people in Northern Ireland about 8. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): If she the apparently partisan way in which the PSNI has will hold discussions with the responsible Minister in dealt with public order offences? On one hand, members the Northern Ireland Executive on the number of of the loyalist community who have been involved in middle-grade accident and emergency doctors in street protests have been arrested, had their homes Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement. raided, been refused bail, and gone to jail; on the other [901925] hand, a prominent Sinn Fein Member of the Legislative Assembly who obstructed the police and encouraged The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office others to attack them was merely given a warning. Does (Mr Andrew Robathan): First, may I say how much I the Secretary of State not agree that public order offences appreciated the hon. Lady’s contribution to the meeting must be dealt with firmly but also evenly, because we had yesterday with the disabled police officers in otherwise confidence in the police will be lost? Northern Ireland, to whom we owe a great deal? 841 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 842

I understand the hon. Lady’s concerns about the Mrs Villiers: I agree that these issues are very important. issues she raises but these are entirely devolved. They are difficult to resolve, and finding an agreed way [Interruption.] The commissioning and provision of forward would be very positive for Northern Ireland. medical services in Northern Ireland are matters for the However, it is primarily for the Northern Ireland Executive Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in to find the money for these proposals within the block Northern Ireland and the Health and Social Care Board. grant they are already allocated, which, as my right [Interruption.] hon. Friend the Minister of State has pointed out, is considerably higher per head than elsewhere in the UK. Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much discordant We will of course consider proposals for additional noise in the Chamber. The question must be heard and funding, but the deficit means I can make no promises the Minister’s answers must be heard. as to whether it will be granted. Haass Talks Ms Ritchie: I thank the Minister for his answer, but he and the Secretary of State need to be more proactive 10. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) on this matter because the policy that dictated the lack (Lab/Co-op): What assessment she has made of of A and E doctors emerges from Whitehall and London. progress in the Haass talks. [901928] Will he and the Secretary of State co-host with the responsible Minister in Northern Ireland a summit to The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa address the shortage in A and E doctors? Villiers): All parties have acknowledged that there are elements of the Haass proposals that they can support. Mr Robathan: Well, we will certainly ensure that we It is important that they continue their negotiations to have discussions with the responsible Minister in Northern try to resolve their differences, and the UK Government Ireland. We have had to take some very difficult decisions will continue to support their efforts to do that. since 2010, but there are now more than 20% more A and E consultants in England than there were in 2010. Tom Greatrex: I thank the Secretary of State for her We need to go further, but it does take six years to train reply; I am sure that she was expecting that question. a doctor and I think all Members, even those on the Will she tell us what discussions on these issues she has other side, will have spotted that we were not in power had with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, six years ago. ahead of any possible recommencement of the talks?

David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): The Minister Mrs Villiers: I have had regular discussions with will be aware that Northern Ireland hospitals have been Eamon Gilmore on this matter, including a number of well served over the years by doctors and nurses from meetings in Northern Ireland and in Dublin. We are India, Pakistan and Malaysia, but visa restrictions have keen to work together to encourage the finding of a way made it very difficult to get doctors in. Will he speak to forward, and to encourage the political parties in Northern his Government colleagues to see whether these restrictions Ireland to reconcile their differences and get an agreement can be removed? over the line. 11. [901929] Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) Mr Robathan: I am very happy to take that up on (SDLP): I welcome the Secretary of State’s positive behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I was not comments on the Haass process. Does she agree that aware of that particular problem because it has not much has been achieved and that we should now been raised with me, but I congratulate the staff in implement as much of that as possible by creating the Northern Ireland hospitals, who have had such a great necessary legislation and resolving the remaining reputation, particularly those at the Royal Victoria hospital differences? which I remember well from when I used to visit it. Mrs Villiers: I agree that considerable progress has Flags/Parades/Protests/Dealing with the been achieved. These issues are incredibly divisive, and Past (Public Funding) the fact that all five political parties have found a degree of common ground is very welcome. I also agree that we 9. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): should keep up the momentum and seize this opportunity What public funding will be made available to help to get an agreement over the line and to reconcile the implement an agreement on flags, parades and protests, differences that still exist among the five parties. and dealing with the past. [901926]

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa PRIME MINISTER Villiers): I would urge the parties to continue their efforts to reach agreement on these matters. Since these areas fall mainly within the devolved field, funding for The Prime Minister was asked— them is also devolved to Northern Ireland as part of the Engagements block grant. Q1. [901968] Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): If he will Mr Campbell: There will be a waiting public wanting list his official engagements for Wednesday 15 January. to see whether agreement can be reached on these very comprehensive matters. Will the Secretary of State ensure The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning that whatever funding is needed in addition to the block I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, grant to deliver this can be delivered to ensure a much and in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have more peaceful and prosperous future in Northern Ireland? further such meetings later today. 843 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 844

Keith Vaz: Launched last week, Action on Sugar aims about the proposal to pay over 100% bonuses. He is the to reduce the sugar content of food and drinks by up to Prime Minister, the taxpayer will foot the bill, so will he 30% because of the twin epidemics of obesity and type put a stop to it right now by telling RBS to drop this 2 diabetes. Voluntary arrangements with manufacturers, idea? though well intentioned, have not worked. Will the Prime Minister meet a delegation of health experts to The Prime Minister: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman discuss this issue, and may we enlist his support in the exactly what we are saying to RBS: if there are any war on sugar by asking him to give up sugar and sugary proposals to increase the overall pay—that is, the pay drinks for one day this week? and bonus bill—at RBS, at the investment bank, we will veto them. What a pity that the previous Government The Prime Minister: I am sure that the right hon. never took an approach like that. [Interruption.] Gentleman’s last proposal will have the strong support Mr Speaker: Order. However long it takes, the questions of Mrs Cameron, so I will take it up if I possibly can. I will be heard and the answers will be heard. commend him for raising this matter and for speaking out on the issues of diabetes and obesity with such Edward Miliband: I am not asking about increases in consistency, because they are major health concerns for pay and bonuses; I am asking a very simple question our country. We are taking them very seriously, and we about the proposal that is expected to come forward are rolling out the NHS health check programme to from RBS to pay more than 100% bonuses on pay. We identify all those aged between 40 and 74 who are at risk know that when RBS is making a loss, when it itself of diabetes. Childhood obesity rates are falling, but says that it has been failing small businesses and when more needs to be done. I am happy to facilitate discussions these kinds of bonuses lead to risky one-way bets, it between the right hon. Gentleman and my right hon. should not be allowed to happen. When ordinary families Friend the Secretary of State for Health. We take this are facing a cost of living crisis, surely the right hon. issue very seriously, and we think that the responsibility Gentleman can say that for people earning £1 million a deal has achieved great things, but there is more to be bonus of £1 million should be quite enough. done. The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman is not asking me about the overall pay and bonuses at Q2. [901969] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Last week RBS, why on earth isn’t he? That is what he should be I had the honour of opening the new Network Rail asking about. I have said very clearly that the regional operating centre at Three Bridges in my remuneration—the total pay bill—at that investment constituency. Will my right hon. Friend tell us what bank must come down. I am getting a lecture from him, investment the Government are putting into the yet from his Government we had the biggest bust anywhere existing rail work to help commuters and travellers as in the world with RBS, 125% mortgages at Northern part of the long-term economic plan? Rock and all the embarrassment about Fred Goodwin. He comes here every week to complain about a problem The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely created by the Labour party—last week it was betting, right: investing in infrastructure is a key part of our this week it is banking. He rises up with all the moral long-term economic plan to ensure that Britain’s economy authority of Rev. Flowers, but where is the apology for can be a success now and in the future. We have seen the mess they made of RBS in the first place? major investment in the south-east, with Thameslink, Crossrail and East West Rail all delivering new services Q3. [901970] Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): for London and the south-east. I can also tell my hon. In the past two years, my local council’s Opportunity Friend that, between 2015 and 2020, we are planning to Sutton growth plan has created £317 million of inward invest more than £56 billion in roads, rail and local investment, halved youth unemployment and seen transport. It is important to make the point that that is record numbers of new businesses starting up. Sutton is more than three times as much as the planned investment also home to the Institute of Cancer Research and the in HS2, so I say to those who fear that HS2 will take all Royal Marsden hospital. Given that life sciences are an the investment that it will not. Three times as much will engine of innovation and growth, what support will the be spent elsewhere. Government give to realise Sutton’s plan for a life sciences cluster based around those world- renowned Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): RBS is centres of excellence? expected to ask the Government to approve bonuses of more than 100% on multi-million pound salaries. Does The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes a the Prime Minister think that that is acceptable? very good point about the strength that Sutton has. Obviously, we have the patent box to attract life science businesses to Britain; we also have the investment in The Prime Minister: What I can tell the right hon. apprenticeships, which is very important; and, of course, Gentleman is that we will continue with our plans for as he knows, the Office for Life Sciences brings together RBS that have seen bonuses come down by 85% and a the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and bonus pool at one third the level it was under Labour. I the Department of Health to help bring life sciences can confirm today that, just as we have had limits on jobs here. Working with local enterprise partnerships, cash bonuses of £2,000 at RBS this year and last year, there is a great opportunity for more investment in these we will do the same next year as well. very important businesses. Edward Miliband: We can all agree with the general Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Mark sentiments that the right hon. Gentleman expresses Duggan inquest concluded last week with a verdict of about bonuses, but today I am asking him a very lawful killing. It also found errors in the police investigation. specific question. RBS is talking to parts of the Government Last week also saw PC Wallis admitting that he lied 845 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 846 about the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield always listen very carefully to the head of the Metropolitan (Mr Mitchell). Does the Prime Minister accept it is now Police Service and to the heads of the Security Service urgent that we reform the Independent Police Complaints who are involved in drawing up those measures and Commission? who advise us on how best to keep our country safe.

The Prime Minister: First, I commend what the right Q6. [901973] Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) hon. Gentleman said about the importance of people (Con): In the first six months of last year, Shrewsbury respecting the outcome of the inquest. We have proper benefited from the highest number of business legal processes in this country and we should respect start-ups in our town’s history. Now the unemployed their outcomes. He also knows that there is an ongoing claimant count is down to 2.5% in Shrewsbury. Will the IPCC investigation into that case, and we should let it Prime Minister join me in praising Shrewsbury’s do its work. I am always prepared to look at reforms of entrepreneurial spirit, and also redouble Government organisations such as this. There was a big reform some efforts, through UK Trade & Investment in the west years ago to make the IPCC much more independent. midlands, to help more Shrewsbury firms to export?

Mr Lammy indicated dissent. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are seeing an enterprise revolution in our The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is country again. There are 400,000 more businesses in shaking his head and saying it is not working. I am very existence today compared with 2010. The point he happy to look at the arguments. makes about small businesses and exports is particularly On the issue of PC Wallis, it was deeply shocking to important. Currently, one in five of them exports. If we see an e-mail that purported to be from someone who could turn that into one in four, we would wipe out our had witnessed an event, whom we are told is a member trade deficit. I absolutely support the excellent work of the public but turns out to be a serving police officer. that he does to call UKTI to account and to encourage That was deeply troubling and deeply disturbing, so I it to do everything it can to back Britain’s entrepreneurs. am not saying that all is well. The vast majority of the British police service do a magnificent job. They put Edward Miliband: There are sites all over the country their lives on the line for us day after day and we should with planning permission that have the capacity for a always recall that, but I am happy to look at proposals quarter of a million—sorry, 250,000—houses where for how we can strengthen these arrangements. nothing is happening, some of which are being hoarded by developers. I am in favour of giving powers to say to Q4. [901971] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Will developers who hold land without building on it, “Use the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the Street it or lose it.” The Prime Minister said the policy was Crane Company in my constituency? May I invite him nuts. Does he still believe that? or the Chancellor to see how, with D2N2 local enterprise partnership money from the regional growth The Prime Minister: We have just had a demonstration fund, it is embarking on the first phase of a £1.1 billion of the grasp of maths that was involved at the Treasury. expansion programme, which will total £2.7 million It is no wonder that we had banks collapsing and all the and increase jobs by 20%? Its exports across the world rest of it. demonstrate the power of British business and the fact that it, like this Government, has a long-term economic House building is picking up: we are seeing a big plan. increase in housing starts and housing completions. Why I think the right hon. Gentleman’s policy is, as he The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend kindly puts it, “nuts” is that if we say to developers and for what he says. We have seen the regional growth fund companies that we will confiscate land unless they produce some real economic success stories, and that is build, they will not go ahead with the building in the being combined with our long-time economic plan to first place. His approach is to put a freeze on the whole encourage businesses to take on employees, to put in of development, rather than to get Britain building, place the infrastructure and, as he says, to back exports which is what we need to happen. in terms of Britain’s performance and get out there and sell to the world. Edward Miliband: I have to say that the Prime Minister is incredibly complacent. House completions are at Q5. [901972] Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) their lowest level since 1924. I am interested in what he (Lab/Co-op): Given that we have recently heard reports says about the policy, because his own Housing Minister that half a dozen terror suspects could soon be released has said that the policy might make a contribution, and on to our streets, can the Prime Minister give us an the Mayor of London says: assurance that public safety will not be compromised “We should be able to have a use it or lose it clause…Developers or put at risk once the Government’s latest experiment should be under no illusions that they can just sit on their land with terrorism controls expires? and wait for prices to go up.” So is the policy nuts or is it the right thing to do? The Prime Minister: I can assure the hon. Lady and the House that we will always take every step necessary The Prime Minister: What we need to keep going with to keep the British public safe. I think the terrorism are the policies of this Government, which are seeing prevention and investigation measures are working well. house building increase. I know that the right hon. It is a complete myth to pretend that control orders Gentleman does not like the facts, but nearly 400,000 could be kept in place forever. Many people were taken new homes have been delivered since 2010, housing off control orders during the existence of TPIMs. I starts in the last quarter were at their highest level for 847 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 848 five years—89% higher than the trough in 2009 when he Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): As we sit in this Chamber, was sitting in the Cabinet—and there has been a 16% six British nationals, including Nick Dunn, a former increase in housing starts over the past 12 months paratrooper, are languishing in prison in Chennai after compared with the year before. His shadow Ministers being taken prisoner from a ship off Tamil Nadu. Will go around opposing our planning reforms, even though the Prime Minister agree to meet me and other they are important to get Britain building, and time and representatives from this House to discuss the issue and again they criticise proposals such as Help to Buy that see whether we can get those former paratroopers released are helping our fellow countrymen and women to realise from prison? the dream of home ownership, so here is a question that he needs to answer: if he cares about house building and The Prime Minister: I know how important this issue home ownership, why not make Labour councils get on is and I raised it personally with Indian Government with selling council houses to hard-working people? Ministers when I was in India recently. I have discussed it with the Foreign Secretary and I shall go on making sure that we do everything we can. If a meeting needs to Edward Miliband: In Labour councils, they are building be arranged between Members of the House of Commons far more houses than in Tory councils. Frankly, I am representing their constituents—I believe that one is a still no clearer at the end of this exchange what the constituent of the Foreign Secretary himself—I am Prime Minister thinks about the “use it or lose it” happy to arrange that. policy. His Housing Minister says that he supports it, the Mayor of London says he supports it, but the Prime Q8. [901975] Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Minister does not know what he thinks. Here is the Investing in research and innovation is essential for our reality: he is not doing enough to close the gap between economic future. Does the Prime Minister agree that supply and demand. The truth is that the number of the Open university’s smart city research project to social housing starts is down, he has shelved his plans improve infrastructure is just one example of how for new towns and rents are rising. Does he accept that Milton Keynes is leading the way in securing our Britain is building 100,000 fewer homes than we need to long-term economic plans? meet demand? The Prime Minister: I have visited the Open university The Prime Minister: Of course we need to build new at Milton Keynes. It is an extremely impressive organisation homes. That is why we have reformed the planning that is also leading a very important export drive for system, which the Opposition opposed; it is why we our universities. I congratulate Milton Keynes on its have Help to Buy, which they oppose; and it is why we representation on the smart cities forum and on what are helping in all the ways we are to get Britain building. the Open university is doing. There are many opportunities We are seeing the right hon. Gentleman having to jump for Milton Keynes, not least those provided by HS2, around all over the place: when it started off, deficit and I look forward to discussing them with my hon. reduction was not going to work, but now he cannot Friend in future. make that argument; then we needed plan B, but now he Q9. [901976] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): cannot make that argument; next it was about the cost Constituents tell me all the time that they cannot afford of living, but yesterday we saw inflation fall to 2%. food, cannot afford to keep warm in winter and cannot What we see is a Government who have a long-term afford to put petrol in their cars to go to work, all economic plan and an Opposition who do not have a because their wages are not going far enough. Does the clue. Prime Minister finally accept that the cost of living is stretching families in Islwyn and constituencies such as Q7. [901974] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and mine to breaking point? Cleveleys) (Con): May I welcome the Government’s renewed commitment to ensuring that my local The Prime Minister: I totally accept that we are still communities benefit from the potential of shale gas? recovering from the great recession that took £3,000 out May I urge the Prime Minister to do more to encourage of the typical family’s income, but what we are seeing the companies and the scientific community to do more now is more people in work, including in Wales. We are to resolve the understandable and legitimate concerns seeing real wages starting to rise, and I think that we can that residents have about the technology and about the be confident. Yes, it is difficult; yes, it is still hard work; potential environmental impact? but our economy is growing, and we want that to be a recovery for everyone in our country.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Q10. [901977] Jesse Norman (Hereford and South right to raise that issue and make the remarks that he Herefordshire) (Con): The number of people in does. I think that shale has huge potential for our Hereford and South Herefordshire in receipt of country. If we recovered just 7% of the Bowland shale jobseeker’s allowance fell by 31% between November reserves, that would provide us with gas in this country 2012 and November 2013. Youth unemployment fell by for 30 years. We must clearly do a far better job, an even more impressive 40%. Does the Prime Minister however, of explaining the benefits to communities, of share my view that the Government’s long-term plan is working with them on that and of talking frankly about already giving employers the confidence to get hiring the process. A huge number of myths are being put again? around to frighten people about shale gas extraction whereas, as we can see in the United States, it can be The Prime Minister: I am grateful for what my hon. extracted safely and cleanly, providing effective low-cost Friend says, because an absolutely key part of our and green energy for our homes and businesses and long-term economic plan is to see a growing number of making our country more competitive at the same time. people in work in our country. We see 1.2 million more 849 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 850 people in work. In the west midlands, employment has reports in recent days of UK involvement in Operation risen by 60,000 since the election. Private sector employment Blue Star to storm the Golden Temple. He will also be is up 64,000. There is still further to go, particularly in aware that the broader events of 1984 in India resulted the west midlands, where we need to get young people in the deaths of thousands of innocent Sikhs and that in particular back to work, but the figures in his constituency this has left lasting grief and pain in the Sikh are very encouraging. community here in the UK and around the world. This is an open wound, which will not heal until the full Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): On his truth is told. So, on the process that the Prime Minister Amritsar inquiry, instead of ordering the civil servant has set up, will he ensure that there is full disclosure of to investigate, why does the Prime Minister not just ask all Government papers and information from that time Lords Geoffrey Howe and Leon Brittan what they and that there is also, following that, a proper agreed with Margaret Thatcher and whether it had statement in the House, where Ministers can be anything to do with the Westland helicopter deal at the questioned about this? time? The Prime Minister: I agree with the right hon. The Prime Minister: I fear that the hon. Gentleman Gentleman about the deep scars that this event left and might have gone a conspiracy theory too fast on this the incredibly strong feelings that exist to this day. As I one. Look, it is very important that we get to the say, anyone who visits the Golden Temple at Amritsar bottom of what happened, and that is why I have asked and sees what an extraordinary place of peace and the Cabinet Secretary to lead this review. He will establish tranquillity it is and what an important site it is for the this urgently and establish the facts. The process is Sikh religion knows how powerful this point is. We will under way. I want it to be fast; I want it to find out the make sure that the inquiry is held properly and its truth; and the findings will be made public. findings will be made public, which is vitally important. I remember and will never forget my visit to the In the end no one should take away the responsibility Golden Temple in Amritsar. It is one of the most for these events from the people who are properly beautiful and serene places anywhere on this planet, responsible for them, and I am sure that the inquiry will and what happened at Amritsar 30 years ago led to a find that. In terms of making a statement and revealing tragic loss of life. It remains a source of deep pain to this information and the findings to the House, I will Sikhs everywhere. Prime Minister Singh, in my view, listen carefully to what he says, but a statement might was absolutely right to apologise for what has happened, well be the right approach. and I completely understand the concerns that these papers raise, so let us wait for the outcome of the review by Sir Jeremy Heywood. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the Prime Minister speak to his colleagues across Government about the I do not want to prejudge the outcome, but I would funding resulting from incentives for fracking being note that, so far, it has not found any evidence to passed directly to parishes, so that those communities contradict the insistence by senior Indian army commanders that feel the impact of fracking are those that choose responsible at the time that, on the responsibility for how that money is spent, rather than having to compete this, it was planned and carried out solely by the Indian with district and county councils’ other priorities? army. It is important to put that, but we do need an inquiry, so that we can get to the bottom of this. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important Q11. [901978] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): On point. What we have set out is the overall level of 30 January, I will be hosting Carlisle skills fair for financial support: £100,000 when a well is dug; up to 70 businesses and training organisations, targeting £10 million, theoretically, because of the 1% of revenue 14 to 25-year-olds with training and job opportunities. that will be paid; and then this absolutely vital point If Carlisle is to prosper, it needs a skilled work force about 100% retention of business rates, which could and successful businesses. Will the Prime Minister give have a very significant effect for local government finance. his support to this event, and will he confirm that he The point that she makes is how that is divided up and his Government will remain committed to training between parishes, districts and counties, and whether and upskilling the young, so that they benefit one looks at individual payments to individual households personally and local and national businesses succeed? who might be inconvenienced. I think that we should look at very local options, making sure that parishes The Prime Minister: I commend my hon. Friend and individuals will benefit. That is something that for what he is carrying out in Carlisle. Jobs and skills colleagues will want to discuss and think about, so that fairs, encouraging young people to think about we can get this right and help this industry to take off. apprenticeships and encouraging businesses to train people in apprenticeships, are some of the most important Q13. [901980] Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) things that we can do. We have got 1.5 million (Lab): I am not sure whether Members are aware that apprenticeships started since the election. Over 250,000 anyone joining the police force will now have to pay apprenticeships have started in the north-west under £1,000 for a certificate before they even fill in the this Government, including in his constituency, and we application form. A £1,000 bobby tax will make it must keep up this good work. harder for the police to look like the community that it serves and that I represent. It will put off young people Q12. [901979] Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton from poorer backgrounds and ethnic minorities from South East) (Lab): The Prime Minister will be aware of joining the police. We all know that the Prime Minister the grave concern among British Sikhs about the admires characters such as Harry Flashman, but 851 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Oral Answers 852 charging for Army commissions was abolished in and secondly, many people in our country have multiple 1871. Why is it being introduced for the police in the disadvantages and problems and so need help to get out 21st century? of poverty and benefit dependency. So it is not just about tailoring a benefit system to make work pay; it is The Prime Minister: I listened very carefully to what about making sure that we intervene in people’s lives the hon. Lady said. What we are trying to do through and try to correct the things that are keeping them out the College of Policing is even further to professionalise of work and out of earning a decent living. this vital profession, but I will make sure that the Home Secretary contacts her about this particular issue. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): May I say to the Prime Minister, as someone who strongly supports shale Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): What gas extraction by fracking, that his current package, is the point of anyone clinging on to a plan B when plan however well intentioned, will not assuage local A is so obviously working? communities, which on a cross-party basis in Lancashire have treated his latest offers as near derisory? Why can The Prime Minister: It is not just plan B that we are he and the Chancellor not sit down with the cross-party not hearing about any more. The Opposition seem to Local Government Association and negotiate on its have stopped talking about the cost of living. They have proposal for 10% of revenues to be shared with local stopped talking about how the deficit would not come communities, as happens in other countries? down. Remember when they told us that growth would never come. They told us that we would lose a million The Prime Minister: I thought that the proposal from jobs rather than gain a million jobs. But the biggest some Members was that it should be 10% of profits. My transformation of all is the silence of the shadow point is that 1% of revenues, which obviously start Chancellor. There is a big debate today on banking, but running the moment shale gas starts coming out of the he was not allowed on the radio and he will not be ground, could well be a better offer. I am very happy to speaking in the House of Commons. They have a novel sit down with anybody to discuss the issue, because I idea: to hide their shadow Chancellor by leaving him on think that shale is so important for the future of our the Front Bench. country. The point I would make, having been on Monday to see the oil platforms that are already on the Q14. [901981] Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Nottinghamshire-Lincolnshire border, is that those went The Prime Minister has previously shown considerable ahead without any of the sorts of community benefits leadership in apologising to victims of state violence that we are promising with shale: £100,000 when a well in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, those victims of is dug, before any gas has reached the surface; 1% of paramilitary violence who made up the majority of revenues, which could be between £7 million and £10 million victims of the troubles have not had access to such for a typical fracking well; and 100% retention of business apologies. Does he agree that the Haass proposals for rates, which for a set of wells could be £1.7 million, or dealing the past offer the best opportunity for victims even £2 million, for a local authority. Hon. Members and survivors to receive truth and justice? Will he should think about how much council tax a small commit as Prime Minister to backing those proposals, district or metropolitan authority raises and consider helping by co-operating and also by funding those the difference that £1.7 million or £2 million in revenue proposals? could make. By all means let us talk about the facts and figures and what we can do, but we also need to persuade The Prime Minister: There is a lot of merit in the people that this can go ahead without the environmental Haass proposals—he did some excellent work. I noted damage or the problems that people are worried about. that Peter Robinson, the First Minister of Northern Those are the concerns more than anything. Ireland, described them as providing the architecture for future agreement and discussion. I hope that we can take forward the Haass work, including the very difficult Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): work done on the past, with all sides trying to agree. The Leader of the Opposition has said, “What Hollande is doing in France I want to do in Britain.” Given recent events across the channel, does my right hon. Friend Q15. [901982] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): I am not sure whether the agree that that is completely at odds with our long-term Prime Minister is a follower of “Benefits Street” on economic plan? Channel 4, but if he is, he will know that, sadly, there is a street like that in every constituency in the land. Does The Prime Minister: I did not catch all of President he agree that, as part of our long-term economic plans, Hollande’s press conference yesterday, because I was we make sure that the benefit system is there for people appearing in front of the Liaison Committee, but one who need it, it is not a lifestyle choice, and people do thing that I did notice is that the French proposals now not get trapped in it? are to cut spending in order to cut taxes in order to make the economy more competitive. Perhaps the shadow The Prime Minister: I have managed to catch only a Chancellor, in his new silent form, will want to consider small amount of that programme, but I think that it some of those ideas and recognise that this revolution brings home two vital points: first, we need a welfare of making business more competitive and trying to win system that is tailored to ensure that work always pays; in the global race is a proper plan for the economy. 853 15 JANUARY 2014 854

Point of Order United Kingdom Register of Places Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.34 pm No. 23) Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would very much welcome your 12.36 pm guidance. I wrote to the Home Secretary on 9 October Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I beg to move, last year—14 weeks ago today—about an issue raised That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a Commission by my constituent, Kerry Bouskill, on child protection to establish and maintain a national register of places within the and the Childhood Lost campaign. She was concerned United Kingdom, including but not limited to countries, counties, about young people reporting abuse often not being cities, towns, villages and hamlets, with a permanent identity believed and how that can be a deterrent. The question defined by historical, social and geographical boundaries, separate from existing administrative and electoral boundaries; to grant on behalf of my constituent was simple enough: will the each such place the right to its own coat of arms, flag and other Home Secretary outline the steps taken by the Government symbols of local identity; and for connected purposes. to strengthen child protection? On 18 November my The United Kingdom today is a vibrant tapestry of office contacted the Home Secretary’s office, but nobody distinct places comprising four countries—England, called back. On 19 November I was told that I would Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—and a patchwork have an answer within a week. On 2 December I was of counties from Caithness to Cornwall, Kent to advised that changes were needed to the letter before Pembrokeshire, Norfolk to Antrim, Flintshire to sign-off. On 11 December I was advised that the letter Fermanagh, and Dunbartonshire to Dorset. Our historic was awaiting a signature. On 20 December the matter counties, as distinct from administrative county areas, had been passed to the office of the Minister for Crime are real places that people take enormous pride in, but Prevention and I was told that I would receive a letter today they have no official status. My Bill would change over the Christmas recess. On 8 and 9 January my office that. Then there are our great cities, from Edinburgh to contacted his office, but again we received no call back. Exeter, London to Londonderry, Cardiff to Colchester, On 10 January I was again advised that the letter was and Belfast to Birmingham, and our historic regions, awaiting a signature, but I have still received nothing. I such as the peak district, the black country, Snowdonia, would appreciate your advice. East Anglia, the Cotswolds and the highlands. Islands too are places with their own distinct identity, from Mr Speaker: In all courtesy to the hon. Gentleman, Shetland, Orkney and Lewis to Anglesey, the Isles of no one in the House or outside it could accuse him of Scilly and the Isle of Wight, and they also form part of excluding from his point of order any matter that he our nation’s great heritage; and in each of our constituencies considered in any way to be material to the thrust of his there are historic towns, neighbourhoods, villages and complaint. As a consequence, I feel sure that all right hamlets, all with their own unique identity. But over the hon. and hon. Members will now be fully familiar with years the identity of very many of these places has been the chronology of events that so dissatisfies him. Suffice eroded by changes to local government boundaries, it to say that he has certainly waited an inordinately parliamentary boundary revisions and the redrawing of long time for a response to his inquiries. His point of council wards, where all too often artificial names are order will have been heard very clearly by those on the used and where parts of one area are sliced off to make Treasury Bench; the Leader of the House is sitting up the electoral numbers in another. Over the years, one there. I hope that hearing it will cause the Government change has been compounded by another to create very to react in a timely way so that the hon. Gentleman’s many anomalies and muddled identities. All that now questions are answered. I should also say to him that needs to be put right, with these real places, their the Procedure Committee monitors the performance of boundaries and genuine identities given permanent Departments in answering parliamentary questions, and protection from the hands of the bureaucrats. he may wish to draw the facts of this case to the Take, for example, my own constituency and the community attention of the Clerk of that Committee and possibly of Rush Green, where I was born. Rush Green is its illustrious Chairman, the hon. Member for Broxbourne divided between two London boroughs, two constituencies, (Mr Walker). two electoral wards and two London Assembly constituencies, even though the whole of Rush Green is historically and geographically a part of Romford. Local government boundaries have not been drawn up with the actual communities in mind. Another example, in London, is the twin villages of Hampstead and Highgate, divided between four London boroughs, no less, all competing to promote their own identities over that of the historic villages themselves. My Bill will stop the Camdenisation of places such as Hampstead and ensure that local authorities have a duty to preserve and uphold identities of genuine towns and villages that have been around far longer than these local government constructs, which love to promote their own corporate identity over and above that of real places. My Bill will provide for the permanent registration of the actual places that exist in our nation, with their boundaries and identities completely separated and distinct from administrative and electoral boundaries. 855 United Kingdom Register of Places15 JANUARY 2014 United Kingdom Register of Places 856

[Andrew Rosindell] the importance of community identity and of the historical and geographical factors that have led to community The Post Office, too, will be duty bound to ensure development. that postal addresses truly reflect real place names. By creating a UK register of places, there will be, for Indeed, the United Kingdom register of places would the first time, definite and clear boundaries for all be the point of reference for all public bodies, Government counties, regions, towns, cities, neighbourhoods, villages Departments, organisations and institutions to refer to and hamlets, which would be taken into consideration in future. when redrawing administrative and electoral boundaries. Our counties and regions, great cities and towns, Indeed, this Bill will ensure that the national register of neighbourhoods, villages, hamlets and islands are places places is taken into account during any future boundary with an identity that is cherished by the people who live revisions, and that defined places will no longer be there. In essence, such places exist due to a prevailing divided and carved up in an arbitrary way. sense of community spirit and the pride people have in Polling districts should be created within the defined the place they come from, and yet there is no official places. They, rather than the much larger electoral system in Britain where all are listed and given the wards, could then form the building blocks of any recognition they deserve. future parliamentary boundary review. As polling districts As many hon. Members will know, I am particularly are smaller units, their use to attain the correct number proud to come from the town of Romford, which I of electors would avoid the huge upheavals and divisions represent in this House. It lies in the traditional county of towns and communities of previous boundary reviews. of Essex, which in turn forms a part of my country of My Bill aims to strengthen local communities, uphold England. I also identify strongly with my local local identities and encourage people to foster a sense of neighbourhood of Marshalls Park, where I grew up and pride and local patriotism in the place where they live. It went to school and where my family home remains to will give all places the opportunity to adopt their own this day. Marshalls Park does not, however, exist as a symbols of local identity, such as a coat of arms or a defined place. flag, that could be included on village and town signs My Bill will define, for the first time, all such places in and municipal buildings or used for a wide variety of a national register of names, location and precise boundaries purposes. It will redraw the map back to what it should as entities entirely separate from existing local authority, cover—the genuine boundaries of our towns, villages, administrative and electoral boundaries: in other words, counties, cities and hamlets across these islands of ours. real places not made up by boundary commissions, It will restore local identity, local patriotism and pride local authorities or Whitehall bureaucrats. in the places where we live, and I commend it to the House. There will be significant benefits in doing this. In Question put and agreed to. particular, there will be much greater scope for the collection of data, as they would be permanently based Ordered, on actual towns, villages and neighbourhoods, thereby That Andrew Rosindell, Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil, creating a consistent area to measure changes and collate Albert Owen, Ian Paisley, Priti Patel, Greg Mulholland, statistics, rather than changeable local authority or Sheryll Murray, Mr James Gray, Adam Afriyie, Mr Henry ward boundaries. It would also have a positive impact Bellingham, Sir Tony Cunningham and Jim Dobbin on community cohesion, helping to encourage a greater present the Bill. sense of local identity across our nation. As all Members Andrew Rosindell accordingly presented the Bill. will be aware, the drawing of administrative and electoral Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on boundaries has systematically failed to take into account Friday 28 February, and to be printed (Bill 154). 857 15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 858

a more general question. Given the catastrophic role Opposition Day that the banking industry played in the economic downturn, why are we having only a half day’s debate on this [17TH ALLOTTED DAY] important subject and squeezing it together with another important debate on the national minimum wage? The Banking Treasury Committee is also meeting this afternoon to talk about these issues with the Governor and one of 12.47 pm the deputy governors of the Bank of England. The Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to Committee’s members will therefore not be able to move, participate in this debate. I wonder whether that is a That this House believes that Government reforms have failed reflection of the fact that Labour is not taking this to deliver a competitive banking system which serves the interests matter as seriously as it should. of consumers or the needs of businesses and the British economy; is concerned that customers have limited choice and low levels of trust and confidence in the banking market; is disappointed that Chris Leslie: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman recent legislation has fallen short of the recommendations of the has alighted on the best criticism of the fact that we are Independent Commission on Banking which called for action to having an Opposition debate today on the failures in diversify the sector and ensure that major new banking service the banking sector. He is a bit off message because he at providers are created; believes that banker remuneration remains least admits that it was the banks that got us into the unacceptably high; regrets the fact that it has taken the EU to act economic catastrophe in the first place. That is slightly to rein in excessive bonuses in Britain in the absence of domestic action, but believes that the Government as a majority shareholder off the script that Ministers usually use. in RBS should not approve any request to increase the cap; and calls on the Government to prevent a return to business-as-usual Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does in the banking sector, which continues to require real reform and my hon. Friend agree not only that this is a good day to competition so that the UK can earn its way out of the cost of living crisis. have this debate, but that most of the people in Huddersfield, whom I represent, and in this country Mr Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] My apologies, cannot understand the culture of bonuses for bankers? Mr Speaker; I correct my first sentence. I want to These people have failed us and have failed small businesses explain to the House that for many of our constituents— and start-ups, and yet they have a bonus culture that is [Interruption]—including those of the hon. Member unlike anything else in the country. for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), January can often be a difficult month financially, with families facing higher fuel bills and receiving credit card statements for the Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend is right to speak of the often very expensive Christmas period. Not everyone anger that his constituents feel. While many of his has such reactions to the new year, however, because for constituents and mine are struggling with the cost of many of the luckiest bankers working in the City, living crisis, what has been the Chancellor’s response to January and February is party time—bonus season—when the concerns about, and the evidence of, excessive pay? their high salaries are often dwarfed by even higher Does the Chancellor regret the millionaires’ tax cut or windfalls, which are enough to make a lottery winner missing another year of the bankers’ bonus tax? Does look on in envy. he reflect on the outrage among the public, which my Last week, the City recruitment company Astbury hon. Friend has expressed, who want leadership in Marsden reported that bonuses for the most senior staff tackling such brazen rewards? No; the response of the in banking and financial services may increase by as Chancellor of the Exchequer is to oppose even the most much as 44% in this bonus season, despite all Ministers’ basic transparency, which would let shareholders know talk about how such payouts have been scaled back. In about bankers who are paid more than £1 million, and 2012, the financial sector paid out an eye-watering to oppose any action in the UK to tackle the excessive £14 billion in bonuses to top staff. At least £1.7 billion bonus culture. of bonuses were held back until just after that fateful The Chancellor’s response to public concern was to day last April when the Chancellor of the Exchequer travel to Brussels in September last year to oppose cut the top rate of tax for the richest 1%, who are those Europe-wide moves to limit bonus payouts to no more with earnings of more than £150,000 per year. Incidentally, than 100% of salary levels for those who are on £400,000 the postponed payouts cost the public purse at least or more, unless there is approval from shareholders. £85 million in lost taxes. The Chancellor continues to spend hundreds of thousands What about the rainmakers, as they are sometimes of pounds in legal fees to fight that new EU rule tooth called—the most senior traders or masters of the universe? and nail, even though it has only just come into force. The number of UK bankers who earn more than £800,000 rose by 11% to 2,714 last year, which is more than in the Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Does the rest of Europe combined. For that set of senior bankers, hon. Gentleman accept that under this Government, the compensation—a word that the banking sector bonuses have more than halved? sometimes uses instead of the word pay that the rest of us use—rose from £1.1 million to more than £1.6 million in 2012. That does not look like an industry that is Chris Leslie: I do not know where the hon. Gentleman licking its wounds; it looks like business as usual. was at the beginning of my speech, but City analysts are predicting that the bonus round for 2013 will see an Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The increase of 44%. I do not know whether he thinks that shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury seems to have that is acceptable or whether many of his constituents glossed over the fact that City bonuses tripled in the last are receiving increases in their pay of 44%, but I would five years of the Labour Government. I want to ask him bet that they are not. 859 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 860

Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Chris Leslie: I will give way to my hon. Friend in a Gentleman recognise that although bonuses may have moment, but I want to finish this point. been halved, in banks such as RBS, which is still making The Prime Minister gave the clear impression at losses and denying the finance that is needed to businesses Prime Minister’s Question Time that he would veto across the United Kingdom, bankers bonuses are still higher pay and bonuses. Perhaps he was unintentionally sometimes in excess of twice their salaries? misleading in the way that he made that point. He might want to come back to correct the record. Some of Chris Leslie: That is exactly the issue that we are us think that he was conveniently looking at the total debating. remuneration at RBS as a device to slip out of the For all the sophistry and smoke-and-mirrors attempts question about how he will exercise the shareholder by Ministers, including the Prime Minister earlier today, vote. to give the impression that they are taking action on The House needs to know that RBS has reduced the bonuses, we know that they confront a key decision number of bankers on its roll by about 2,000 in the past because of the new Europe-wide decision to limit bonuses. year. One would therefore expect its pay bill to fall, and However they try to spin their way out of it, they will so it should, but that does not get it out of answering have to confront that decision. It is a matter of national the question about the individual senior bankers who embarrassment that UK policy on bankers bonuses was are earning £400,000 or more. Will the shareholder, in not led by the UK Treasury. Now that we have a bonus this case the Chancellor of the Exchequer, give them ratio in statute, albeit from the European Union, surely permission not just to have bonuses of 100% of their the Minister will not cast his shareholder vote, on salaries, but to bust through that and go to 200% of behalf of the taxpayer, to allow state-owned banks to their salaries? That is a crucial test for the Chancellor. shell out bonuses that are above the level of their Whatever the sophistry and warm words we might get salaries. from the Prime Minister, they cannot wriggle out of confronting that decision. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con): It is deplorable that this debate has been scheduled Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Does my hon. during a Treasury Committee hearing. As a member of Friend agree that this is a question of leadership? If that Committee, I have seen over the past few months leadership is not shown by the banking sector itself, it is and years the attempts to clear up the appalling wreckage for this House and this Government to show leadership. that was left in 2010. Is it not true that under the last My constituents cannot understand why these people Government, this country ran a budget deficit of 3% at live in a stratosphere in which they are under no moral the top of the economic cycle and that we had the or financial obligation to behave properly. Let us show highest levels in recorded history of personal and household some leadership on this matter in today’s vote. debt? Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend is right. The motion Chris Leslie: There they go again, denying that the states explicitly that the Chancellor should exercise his banks had any responsibility whatever for the global role as the majority shareholder to prevent an extreme financial crisis. Obviously, it was Labour’s investment in approach to bonuses. schools and hospitals that caused the devastation in dozens of countries worldwide and recession across— Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend will know that on [Interruption.] 1 January the EU bankers bonus cap came in and it restricts the payment of bonuses to not more than the Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Hereford amount of a salary on a 1:1 ratio. Does it not tell the and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) is usually the House all we need to know about this Government’s epitome of the cerebral philosopher; an air of calm attitude towards bankers bonuses that their first action usually exudes from his every orifice. He has become is to submit a legal challenge to the European Court of uncharacteristically over-excited. He must calm himself, Justice against the EU cap? consider the merits of yoga and listen to what the shadow Chief Secretary has to say. Chris Leslie: One of the questions I have for the Minister is precisely about how much it is costing the Chris Leslie: I now have an image in my mind, taxpayer, in all those legal fees to hire barristers, to try Mr Speaker, but we will move on. to overturn the bankers bonus cap. I will be happy to give way to the Minister if he has an update for the I want to pin down the position that the Prime House on whether the figure is £100,000, £200,000 or Minister was trying to spin in Prime Minister’s questions. £300,000. How much is being spent on legal fees? The The market expectations are that the loss-making RBS Minister’s eyes are not gazing across the Chamber at will pay about £500 million in bonuses in 2013, despite this point, so perhaps he will come back to that in his the string of allegations about LIBOR fixing and the speech. accusations that it forced viable businesses into default in a bid to seize their assets on the cheap. When life is I wanted to quote for my hon. Friends something getting harder for so many households and bank lending that the Chancellor said in August 2009, when he was in to businesses is falling, it cannot be right for the Chancellor Opposition: to approve a doubling of the bank bonus cap when the “It is totally unacceptable for bank bonuses to be paid on the taxpayer has a stake. back of taxpayer guarantees. It must stop.” That is the position the public were led to believe the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will Chancellor would take when in office. Strangely, that my hon. Friend give way? does not seem to be the position he takes now. 861 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 862

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend shame that he did not take a lead in trying to construct agree that it is very important indeed to establish the something of his own to rein in this culture. After all, amount of money that is being paid to individuals, such we would have had a repeat of the banker bonus tax. as the £5.8 million in the year ending 2010 to the chief The Chancellor’s argument is, “Oh well, this is just executive of RBS and the £5.8 million paid out by going to move it all on to pay and on to ordinary Lloyds? Will our constituents not recognise that the salaries.” Surely one of the lessons of the banking crisis Conservative party is saying absolutely nothing about is that the excessive, short-termist risk and reward bonus the level of those payments to individuals, and that it is culture was driving dysfunctional behaviour that got us defending them? into the mess in the first place. Frankly, I am sure those bankers will try to find all sorts of little dodges and Chris Leslie: Government Members will have to confront weaves to get around the rules, but we have to make the this issue, because it is a decision they will to have to system more transparent and we need to move towards take. Those traders and executives were former colleagues an remuneration arrangement that is much more about of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who was one sustainability, stability, professionalism and serving the of the senior bankers at Deutsche bank. Perhaps he can customers. It would be foolish for the Government to tell us whether, when he was a banker before the election, try to sue Brussels on this point and hold out against his bonus was more or less than 100% of his salary. public opinion, which has had enough of this excessive Perhaps he can fill us in with that bit of history. behaviour. In our motion, we have made the point about instructing United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd and making Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) sure that it acts accordingly and turns down this proposal (Lab): I wonder whether my hon. Friend can help the if bonuses come to more than 100% of salaries. That is House. Have the Government ever given any indication not fair. Most of the people watching this debate will on what they believe the upper limit should be on think, “Well, it would be nice to get any bonus at all. bankers’ pay? The same amount as my pay? Crikey, that would be phenomenal, but twice the amount of pay is totally Chris Leslie: I do not think they have, although I unacceptable.” The Chancellor and the Minister will think before the general election the Prime Minister have to confront the anger of the public on this issue if indicated that he did not want any taxpayer-owned they fail this test. banks to pay out bonuses of more than £2,000. We know what happened to that proposal. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The motion mentions The issue goes beyond anger about bank bonus season. the requirement for greater competition. The hon. Serious reforms to the banking culture and the role of Gentleman will be aware that the dozens of challenger banking in the economy are still required. Ministers still banks that have sprung up under this Government since have not grasped the role that banks ought to be playing 2010— to repair our economy. They are still out of touch on the causes of three years of economic stagnation and Ian Lucas: Nonsense! the reforms to the banking sector that are still needed. How much more evidence do they need? Despite the billions of pounds needed to ensure that the cash machines Guy Opperman: I can definitely assure the hon. kept working; despite the mis-selling and ripping off Gentleman that that is absolutely correct and that many consumers; despite the money laundering and sanctions are coming forward. Does the hon. Member for busting; despite banks peddling interest rate swaps to Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) regret voting in April struggling small firms; despite multi-billion losses in the 2012 against greater competition in the banking sector? disastrous London Whale scandal—London Whale was the name given to a trader—and fines of more than Chris Leslie: I am not quite sure what planet the hon. £1 billion for Deutsche bank in the United States for Gentleman is living on, but we have been consistently mis-selling mortgage-backed securities; and despite the tabling amendments to financial services legislation to rigging of LIBOR and other benchmark indices, including encourage more competition and to have an inquiry investigations into attempts by up to 15 banks to manipulate into retail banking competition. At every stage, the a £5 trillion dollar a day foreign exchange market; Government have refused to go down that route. despite all that the Government still do not have the stomach to do what it takes to clamp down on misconduct Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) and to finish the job. (SNP): The hon. Gentleman is probably aware that the respected Nobel prize winner Professor Joseph Stiglitz Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): said in his book, “The Price of Inequality” that one of My hon. Friend mentions the LIBOR scandal and the the ways forward is to mis-selling of products. May I put on record my thanks “curb the bonuses that encourage excessive risk-taking and short- to the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for his sighted behaviour.” work as chair of the all-party group on interest rate The hon. Gentleman will see that we are back on that swap mis-selling? trajectory. We are heading for another crash and another On bonuses and reward, does my hon. Friend believe period of excess in banking, as the monopolists’rent-seeking that perhaps what we should say to high earners is that behaviour continues in the City. there will be no more bonuses until they have sorted out the mess the Financial Conduct Authority is currently Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. investigating, and until all the individuals and companies This morning the Chancellor gave his rationale for have had their cases considered fully and have been disagreeing with the European banker bonus cap. It is a compensated for the mess the bankers made? 863 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 864

Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend puts his finger on the analysis, which explains why they have the wrong policies. point, which is that most of our constituents would say By failing to tackle the root causes of recent economic that bonuses are supposed to be for good or excellent devastation and the deficit that built up as a result, they performance and not just part of the run-of-the-mill, are maintaining the risk that banks could once again ordinary pay they receive regardless of whether they do turn to the taxpayer to bail them out, should they fail well, make losses or get involved in all sorts of problems again. Never again must the taxpayer pick up the losses and difficulties. That is part of the problem with the for the reckless behaviour of banks, and never again culture in the banking sector, with which, frankly, the must our economy and public services be thrown into legislation introduced by the Government has so far such turmoil because of the negligence and monumental just not dealt with. greed of banking executives and traders.

Jesse Norman: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I apologise update the House later on what cap on bonuses was set for arriving late, Mr Speaker. I am sure my hon. Friend by the previous Prime Minister, or the one before that. would agree that in the last Parliament the Conservative Does he not accept that the past few years, as he has just party, in opposition, only ever complained about red demonstrated with his recitation of scandals, was a tape. Did he notice that for the first time today the period of the most lax supervision? It was under the Prime Minister talked about the recession not being the previous Government that the Bank of England allowed fault of the Labour party? these dreadful evils to take place. That is why it has made such a difference introducing the new senior Chris Leslie: This is why this Government’s narrative persons regime, the new authorised persons regime and is beginning to crumble around the edges. Most people all the other changes, as well as the new definition of realise that the banking sector was totally dysfunctional competition in legislation. and causing great difficulties. Of course we need better policing throughout the international community and Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman and I differ in our by the regulators, but if we are to rehabilitate the analysis of what happened—I will explain why in a banking sector, we cannot shy away from the tough moment—and that says a lot about where we need to decisions needed to change its structures and behaviour. take policy. I do not believe that we have finished the There are still too many areas in which the Government job of banking reform, which seems to be the impression have left banking reform unfinished. we are getting from the Government Front Bench. He and I might agree that more is needed—I will talk a bit Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Returning to about that in a moment—but stopping short of those the point about complacency, did my hon. Friend see reforms will not prevent another bank failure or protect the briefing note from the British Bankers Association the interests of normal customers and society so that prior to this debate? It says that they, not the high remuneration of those senior bankers, “no other industry is subject to such influential pay supervision”. come first. I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does my Does he agree that this “influential pay supervision” is hon. Friend share my incredulity that the Conservative patently failing in its job? party, which in opposition accused the then Government of over-regulation, should now suggest it was previously Chris Leslie: We have to feel sorry for senior bankers in favour of more regulation? facing a bonus of merely the same amount as their basic take-home pay, as 200% bonuses are obviously vital for Chris Leslie: There is a touch of revisionism from their survival—for the record, this is sarcasm. It is Government Members, but perhaps that is a bit generous; complete nonsense, of course. their attempt to rewrite history is breathtaking. I have no doubt that when the Minister speaks my hon. Friends Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): will hear a complacent desire just to move on from I have been listening intently to my hon. Friend’s delineation banking reform and a desperation to make party political of the big ticket items where the banks have failed and points about the history of the banking crisis. They will where the Government appear not to criticise them, but try, with all their might, to pretend that it was Labour’s on a more localised issue, Scottish constituents of mine spending on schools and hospitals that caused a global have consistently been rack-rented and ruined by RBS, recession in dozens of countries worldwide, but my as the Tomlinson report said, yet these bankers complain hon. Friends will not hear from him about how the in the local press in Scotland that their £4 million-worth banks must still be made to pay for their egregious and of bonuses is less than the £6 million that HSBC bankers scandalous abuses and over-leveraged trades in sub-prime get—and these are people who consistently destroyed mortgage securities. companies in Scotland. I hope the Minister will address the question of their faults and how they have acted All sense that the banks must be held accountable for since the crash. the state we are in has been airbrushed from the Government’s narrative, because they want to blame their political opponents rather than upset their corporate Chris Leslie: Of course, we want to see rewards, friends. Perhaps the Minister likes to turn a blind eye, in bonuses and pay that reflect performance. That is my the knowledge that it really was the banks that were hon. Friend’s basic point. It is not asking for too much. responsible for the global financial crisis, or perhaps he In too many areas, reform has been left unfinished. has now genuinely convinced himself that it was primarily Four times the Government have rejected our proposals the fault of Governments and that the banks were only for bankers to face an independent licensing regime a little bit to blame. Either way, they have the wrong with an annual validation process for competence; they 865 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 866 have delayed a decision on leveraging that could prevent Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It has excessive risk taking; and they have continued to resist a been widely trailed today that a future Labour Government, sector-wide back-stop power for the full separation of if elected, would try to force banks to sell off branches. retail and investment banking, should the ring-fencing That will cause great concern, particularly in rural not work. Moreover, there is insufficient scope for proper areas, because it is their branches that would be mostly scrutiny before the further sale of Treasury assets, and likely to be disposed of. How would his proposals help we know that the Government sold both Northern create competition for our high street businesses? Rock and the first tranche of Lloyds shares at a loss. Despite month after month of persistently falling lending Chris Leslie: This is not about shutting branches; it is to small and medium-sized enterprises—a fall of £12 billion about making a more competitive sector. Time after in the past year alone—the Government have had to time, we have tabled amendments to financial services throw out Project Merlin, ditch credit easing and reboot Bills calling for more competition in the banking sector. their funding for lending programme, but still to little The Independent Commission on Banking, chaired by effect. It is obvious that we need a serious British Sir John Vickers, called for action to diversify the banking investment bank, supported by a network of regional sector, but the Treasury’s approach to divestments of banks and capitalised with revenues from the market branches from NatWest and Lloyds was not exactly a value of 3G spectrum licences, yet here we are, in the raging success. It would have been better if the Government fourth year of this Government, and their half-hearted had taken our advice and gone for a competition review attempt at a business bank is still not fully up and of the retail sector and not just the business banking running. sector. They often say “We are looking at competition”, but it is usually only in business banking. They need a more comprehensive approach; the customer needs better Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Members are service and competition to bring down fees and charges. listening to the hon. Gentleman with astonishment. What exactly did the previous Labour Administration There is still no obligation on banks to provide a do in 13 years to regulate the sector that he is talking basic bank account for all customers, even though we about? know it helps people on low incomes to save money and plan their budgets. The jury is out whether on the seven-day current account switching service will be Chris Leslie: The previous Government introduced a enough or whether steps should be taken towards full bankers bonus tax, which raised billions of pounds that portability of bank accounts for customers. The helped improve our public services. Government Members Government could introduce a fiduciary duty of care, need to wake up and realise that they need to repeat that explicitly putting the best interests of customers first strategy. and foremost in the financial services sector. While we are on the subject of bank taxation and the Today, banks are an essential utility; they are supposed levy, let us look at what the Government have done, to be there to help customers, not to hinder the economy because it has been such a colossal disappointment so or act like untouchable vested interests. We need to far. The Prime Minister promised that his bank levy clean up the behaviour of the banks and end the culture would raise £2.5 billion each year, but they have never of excessive risk and reward. Those are the traits of the been bothered about making the banks pay their fair old economy; the new economy that we need demands a share, because their hearts are not in it, so the bank levy more modern banking sector—more competitive and has fallen short of that target year after year. It raised diverse, accountable to its customers, supporting long-term only £1.6 billion in 2011, and despite their subsequent investment at home and delivering the sustained growth promises, it then again raised only £1.6 billion in 2012, that we need. That will be the task of the next Labour and they are expecting a further shortfall this and next Government. financial year—the Minister could confirm this. In the past three years, the bank levy has raised £2.1 billion 1.21 pm less than they promised. With £2 billion, we could The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): kick-start the construction of 80,000 houses or employ I thought that Labour Members had turned over a new more than 20,000 nurses—the same number the NHS is leaf this year: they admitted that they got it wrong on short of. It represents a serious and scandalous shortfall immigration and they admitted that they got it wrong in tax collection. on education, so I hoped that the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) would follow suit and Several hon. Members rose— admit that they also got it wrong on banking. I hoped he would admit that it was Labour’s changes to banking regulation that led to the world’s largest banking bail- Chris Leslie: I would like to make some progress. out—changes that meant that when the alarm bells Perhaps the most serious area of reform left untouched were ringing, no one was listening. The Bank of England by the Government is the continued dominance of the was completely powerless to act. I hoped that the hon. big five banks, which gives customers limited choice Gentleman would also admit that City bonuses rocketed and helps feed disillusionment and low trust. The under Labour’s 13 years in office, while Labour Cabinet Government have an action plan to deliver competition Ministers were telling the world that they were in the banking sector, but we cannot see it. We need “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich” more competition and banks that are hungry to serve and they were handing out gongs to the likes of Fred the interests of consumers, businesses and the British Goodwin. City bonuses were surging to all-time highs, economy, and a wholehearted shift in the number of rising year after year, more than tripling over five years market participants serving households and businesses, and peaking in 2008 at over £12 billion. Instead, this is a not a half-hearted tinkering around the edges. new year and the same old Labour. 867 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 868

Michael Connarty rose— Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): It is reported today that the Opposition are proposing specific Sajid Javid: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman; I market shares on specific banks. Has that ever been might be about to hear an apology, so I will listen tried in any other country? carefully. Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is right. It is reported that, this Friday, the Leader of the Opposition will Michael Connarty: I think anyone who reads the make a speech on the economy and attempt to set out transcript deserves an apology from the Minister, who an economic policy. I am afraid that his last such speech forgot to mention that the relaxation of banking controls did not go very well. From what we know about this started with Mrs Thatcher and the Conservative proposal—very little at this stage—I am not aware of Government. He forgot to tell people on the record that any country in the developed world that has a similar when people like me on the Opposition Benches were approach, with the possible exception of the former urging constraint—I am an economist—the Minister’s Soviet Union, which adopted a similar approach to its right hon. and hon. Friends were calling for fewer banking sector. controls and a lighter touch with the banks, as was the SNP in Scotland. Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I am glad we are discussing history, because I am aware of the hon. Sajid Javid: I think the hon. Gentleman has a challenged Gentleman’s own history as a banker. I wonder what his memory of events. I am sad to see that he had an remuneration and bonuses were back in those days. opportunity to apologise, but did not take it. Given his history and the fact that he should be saying Let us look at the facts. At the time of the changes sorry—I presume—will he tell us whether he believes Labour was making to the financial sector, my right that bankers deserve a bonus in excess of 100% of their hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden salary. Does he think so and does the Chancellor think (Mr Lilley) warned the then Government in November so? 1997: Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady seems to suggest that it is “The process of setting up the FSA may cause regulators to best to have Ministers who have no experience or knowledge take their eye off the ball, while spivs and crooks have a field day.”—[Official Report, 11 November 1997; Vol. 300, c. 732.] in the areas for which they are responsible. We saw that under the previous Government, and look what happened. Let me share another quote, in this case from the To win back the confidence of the British people, we current shadow Chancellor from a speech he made as need a long-term economic plan for recovery. City Minister in 2006: “Nothing should be done to put at risk a light-touch, risk-based Chris Leslie: I would not want the Minister regulatory regime.” unintentionally to miss answering the important question What we are hearing from Labour is the same old that my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn headline-chasing nonsense that we have come to expect Brown) asked. For the record, do the Government and no answers at all to the problems they created. believe that the senior bankers at the Royal Bank of Scotland should or should not be allowed to pay bonuses I agree with the hon. Member for Nottingham East of over 100% of pay? on one thing: public confidence in the banking system and in bankers is still low, just as—let us be honest—public Sajid Javid: I will come to that later in my speech confidence in the political system and the people in this when I will deal with some of the issues that the hon. Chamber is still low. That is precisely because, five years Gentleman raised. ago, partly as a result of the irresponsible decision of some bankers, but largely as a result of the policies of Bringing back confidence to the economy will of the then Labour Government, our country found itself course mean dealing with the banking sector to make it in a huge mess. When trust is lost on that scale, it is not more stable, more resilient and more efficient. That is won back overnight. exactly what this Government have been doing for the last three years.

Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Perhaps the Minister Mr MacNeil: Does the Minister agree that, as with can answer this question because the shadow Minister the debate on the bedroom tax before Christmas, this did not give way to me. The shadow Minister said that debate is really one about the symptoms of inequality in restricting the number of branches that banks can hold our society. Since the 1970s, we have seen 80% of the will not close branches, but of course it will. What does gains in productivity going to the top 1%—an inequality he think closing branches will do to people’s faith and level roughly equivalent to that of the 1920s. Governments belief in the banking sector. I have three branches of all over Europe and in the United States are not getting Barclays in my constituency—in Chandlers Ford, Alresford to grips with inequality and the hampering of life and Winchester—so if, God forbid, a Labour Government chances that it is causing. What does the Minister think were ever elected, which one would they propose to should happen? The bankers should not receive the close? bonuses they are getting and people should not have their life chances halted by the bedroom tax. Are this Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend highlights the fact that Government going to do anything serious on this issue? the Labour party has no ideas about how to increase competition in the banking sector, and any kind of Mr Speaker: I assume that the hon. Gentleman will approach that includes arbitrary quotas will clearly lead not seek to make a speech in the debate, on the grounds to the sort of problems that my hon. Friend outlines. that he has already done so. 869 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 870

Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman will know that 10% to which the hon. Gentleman referred, and, of inequality surged under the previous Government and course, lending fell with it. If the hon. Gentleman were has come down under this Government. In fact, the rich honest and recognised the damage that his party did to pay a higher proportion of tax than they have ever paid, the manufacturing sector, perhaps what he says would with the top 1% of earners paying almost 30% of be taken more seriously. income tax for the first time and the top 5% paying We need a more stable, resilient, efficient banking almost half of the total income tax take. The Government sector, and it is on that requirement that we have are proud of making sure that the rich make a fair focused our reforms. As Members will know, back in contribution to public finances. June 2010 my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced the establishment of an Independent Commission on Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend is making an extremely Banking, chaired by Sir John Vickers, to explore how powerful case, but may I remind him of the central fact the sector should be reformed in the wake of the financial of the past 15 years? The banks had the same level of crisis. Last year the House passed the Financial Services leverage for 40 years, until 2007, after which it went up (Banking Reform) Act 2013, which has enabled us to by two and a half times. It was that explosion of implement the commission’s recommendations. The changes leverage, under Labour, that destroyed the banking will mean that banks must ring-fence the deposits of system both in this country and internationally. individuals and small businesses, so that everyday banking can be separated from volatile investment banking. Sajid Javid: As always, my hon. Friend is spot on. Because of the changes that Labour made in the regulatory As all Members, and, indeed. all members of the system, no one knew what was going on, and if they public will know, the financial crisis saw taxpayers did, they were absolutely powerless to act, especially bailing out the banks that got into trouble, but we have those in the Bank of England. That is the legacy of the taken steps to ensure that that will not be repeated. Our last Government. banking reform Act introduces a bail-in tool, as a result Let me now say something that the Labour party of which shareholders and creditors, not taxpayers, will seems to be scared of saying. We need well-run successful be first in line to bear the costs of future bank failures. banks in this country. We need the services that they provide. We need the loans that they give to small Chris Williamson: I think that the Minister should businesses, and the mortgages that they offer to home admit that the Government have watered down the owners. We need the jobs that they produce—more than Vickers commission. Will he now come clean with the 450,000 throughout this country, and more than two House, and tell us that that is what they have done? thirds of those are outside London. We, as a Government, also need the huge taxes that the financial sector and its Sajid Javid: That is exactly what we have not done. employees pay—some £60 billion last year—so that we We have accepted the central recommendations of the can run our schools and hospitals. Vickers commission. We have not just been working to prevent a repeat of Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Small the crisis. Many Members on both sides of the House businesses have been among the biggest victims of the have been rightly appalled by the revelations of poor financial crisis, because banks have stopped lending to behaviour on the part of some in the industry, such as them. I share some of the Minister’s scepticism about payment protection insurance, interest rate swap mis-selling, the advantages of shutting bank branches, which may and LIBOR manipulation. Those practices were going indeed only harm banking and access to financial services on right under the noses of Labour Treasury Ministers, in rural areas, but I nevertheless think that the Government including the current shadow Chancellor, who did nothing could be doing a great deal more to ensure that the at all to stop it. banks lend more to small businesses on fairer terms. What will the Minister do about that? Guy Opperman: My hon. Friend attended the local banking conference that I organised shortly before Sajid Javid: I agree with the hon. Lady that businesses Christmas. Does he agree that “challenger banks” such rely on the banks for the lending that they need. The as Aldermore, Virgin, Metro, and even the Bank of action that we have already taken through, for example, Salford—which is run by Labour and Unite, and is the funding for lending scheme has ensured that the excellent—are a key element in the greater competition banking sector has had more money at lower rates to that we need in order to reinvent the banking market in on-lend to small businesses and, indeed, households. this country? We also recently announced a consultation on collecting small and medium-sized enterprises credit lending data, Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend’s intervention gives me which will help to spur further competition in that an opportunity to commend him for his initiative to sector. promote regional banks. He is absolutely right in his Ian Lucas: The Minister is endorsing a noble cause in assessment. recommending support for small business and for We also set up the Parliamentary Commission on manufacturing in particular, but given that manufacturing Banking Standards, chaired by my hon. Friend the accounts for 10% of the economy, why does only 2.6% Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). As a result of the of bank debt stock result from lending to it? Why does commission’s work, we amended the banking reform the Minister not do something about that? Act in order to implement its recommendations on holding bankers to account more effectively for poor Sajid Javid: Part of the answer might be that behaviour. If a bank were in future to enter resolution manufacturing was decimated under the last Government. because of reckless mismanagement, senior bankers Its share of the economy fell from about 17% to the could face a prison term of up to seven years. 871 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 872

Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Jesse Norman: Was it not the previous Prime Minister The Minister has spoken in strong terms about the who said, “We will do for Great Britain what we have experience of the financial services. Does he accept that done for the City of London”, and is it not a disaster the unique way in which bonuses drive short-term risk that he said and did that? taking led to the scandals that we witnessed, and, indeed, to the financial crisis? Does he really believe Sajid Javid: Again, my hon. Friend makes an excellent that the reward for short-term risk taking behaviour to point. meet bonus targets should be more than 100% of the reward that someone receives for doing his or her own Huw Irranca-Davies: The Minister is understandably job? making a case for the financial sector, as he also should for manufacturing and all other sectors. What my Sajid Javid: What I do accept is that badly structured constituents fail to understand is why, when public and and badly designed bonuses will lead to bad behaviour. private sector employees over the last few years and I am sure that the hon. Lady herself accepts that if an now have accepted pay restraint and real-terms squeezes arbitrary cap is imposed on bonuses and it leads to an on their earnings, and we in this House, including increase in fixed pay but no overall fall in overall pay, Ministers, are facing public demands to accept pay the bad behaviour will actually worsen. restraint on our pay and conditions as well, top bankers We are putting our house in order. We are learning are immune from those constraints. from the huge mistakes of the last Government, and are ensuring that we create a country in which the public Sajid Javid: I will come on to that topic shortly and can trust that their money is secure and our banking share with the hon. Gentleman some numbers that sector can flourish. show what has happened to the pay of top bankers.

Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is making great progress Chris Leslie: Do it now. in the debate. Will he also mention the fact that taxpayers are now benefiting from the fines that have been levied Sajid Javid: I will come on to it. The hon. Gentleman on the industry, and that the Chancellor has extended raised the two issues of banking competition and the arrangement to ensure that military charities and remuneration and I want to cover them. others benefit? I was very pleased that the hon. Gentleman talked Sajid Javid: I am glad that my hon. Friend has passionately about the importance of competition. It is referred to that. It was the right thing to do, and it a shame that the previous Government did absolutely demonstrates that we can take some of the money that nothing to encourage it for 13 years. It is worth reminding is coming from the banking sector and use it for good the Chamber that when the last Government took causes. office there were at least 10 major UK banks, but over their 13 years of incompetence they continued to permit Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): My hon. and manage banking takeovers which shrank the number Friend mentioned the shadow Chancellor’s failure to of market players and left the big banks to dominate. tackle the abuses that were taking place in the banking Greater competition in banking is good for people system. Will he confirm that the shadow Chancellor and businesses and the economy. That is why we are encouraged the development of a less regulated implementing the recommendations of the Independent environment, and that that contributed to the problems Commission on Banking for improving competition; that we now face? indeed, we are going further. We are addressing the issue of too big to fail through ring-fencing, meaning Sajid Javid: My right hon. Friend has made an important that big banks will no longer get a competitive advantage point. I have already quoted what the shadow Chancellor from this implicit guarantee. We have put competition said in 2006, when he was the City Minister, but those at the heart of financial services regulation by giving the were not just his views; they were also the views of his Financial Conduct Authority a formal competition objective boss, the then Prime Minister, the man who did more as well as making provision for a secondary competition damage to our financial sector than any other. This is objective for the Prudential Regulation Authority. We what the last Labour Prime Minister said in his 2007 are also making sure that the FCA has the right tools to Mansion House speech: get the job done on competition by giving it concurrent “I congratulate you Lord Mayor and the City of London on competition powers. these remarkable achievements, an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London.” While competition dropped under Labour’s stewardship, it is increasing under ours. As we have heard, since the Shortly afterwards, he carried out the world’s largest crisis Metro Bank, Virgin Money and the new TSB banking bail-out. brand have entered the market. Indeed, RBS also Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Will the Minister announced recently that it has teamed up with investors, share with the House his thoughts about which member including the Church Commissioners, to launch a 300- of the last Government recommended that Fred Goodwin branch challenger bank, Williams & Glyn’s, focused on should receive a knighthood as an honour from the small businesses. Government? In fact our financial regulators are currently in talks with 22 potential new bank applicants because of the Sajid Javid: I have to tell my hon. Friend that I am steps we have taken to promote banking competition. not sure who it was, but I know that the knighthood On top of that we are creating a new payment systems was widely supported by members of the then Government, regulator so that smaller banks and others can access which shows what their priorities were. the payment systems fairly and more transparently, and 873 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 874 we have secured a seven-day current account switching The Government do not support the EU cap on service to make sure that people have the confidence to bonuses. The Government have fought against it and we change accounts. There are further innovations coming are currently challenging it in court. The bonus cap on cheque imaging and mobile payments. This is a creates perverse incentives by removing the link to Government who are bringing competition back to performance. It is damaging to financial stability; it is banking. opposed by the PRA and the Bank of England; and, On bankers’ pay, we understand the depth of public indeed, the cross-party Parliamentary Commission on anger but we will not take any lectures from the Labour Banking Standards rejected crude bonus caps as party. While bonuses continued to increase year after unworkable. year on its watch, even after 2007, they are now down Let me turn finally to the bank levy. 85% from their peak in 2008. Since 2010 we have been leading the way on tackling unacceptable pay practices. Chris Williamson: Will the Minister give way? First, we have introduced rules that require significant parts of bonuses to be deferred and paid in shares, which means there is now a much better alignment of Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will pay with risk and performance. While we make sure the Minister give way? that only good performance can be rewarded, we are also making sure that poor performance can be punished Sajid Javid: No, I have given way enough and others by introducing measures that mean firms have clawback want to speak. policies to reduce or revoke pay retrospectively. If we need an example of how little the Opposition Those steps are having an impact. The 2012 bonus understand the banking sector, we only have to look at pools at almost all major banks have declined massively their policies on the bank levy, a levy they turn to every since this Government came to office. The truth is that time they want to fund a policy announcement. They while Labour talks about clamping down, this Government seem to believe that the bank levy could raise enough get on with the job. money to pay for capital spending, a youth jobs guarantee, regional growth funding, housing, child care and community Emily Thornberry: If the public are watching this services. On top of that, they think they can cut the debate, they may well want to ask the question I shall deficit with it, reverse VAT increases, reverse child benefit ask now, and I hope we get an answer. Do the Government savings and reverse tax credit savings—in total over have a view on the maximum amount a banker should £30 billion of commitments. Only the economically be given by way of either a salary or a bonus, and does illiterate would think that with £1 raised in tax, we the Minister agree with the bonuses currently being could have £10 of spending power. given out by Chase Manhattan bank? It is no wonder that Labour gave us the deepest recession in 100 years, the largest post-war budget deficit Sajid Javid: First, I am not sure even whether the and the world’s largest banking bail-out. In short, whereas Opposition have a view on what the right level of their old banking policy was to stick their heads in the bonuses is. Also, I am not sure about Chase Manhattan sand, their new banking policy is to stick their heads in bank because it does not exist any more as far as I the clouds, so frankly I do not think they are in a know. position to tell this Government what to do. Instead we shall work to continue to make this sector more stable, Kwasi Kwarteng: Will my hon. Friend explain to the more resilient and more efficient, and we shall continue House what the last Government said about bonus to help our banks to help our country get back to our levels, if they said anything about them, and the gratitude best. I urge the House to reject this motion. with which they spent bankers’ tax receipts?

Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend again rightly points out Several hon. Members rose— that the previous Government did nothing when bonuses were reaching a record high. Even after they had carried Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. out the world’s largest bank bail-out, pumping in over Before I call the next speaker, I should say that obviously £40 billion of taxpayers’ money, they still allowed bonuses a great many Members wish to contribute and there is the next year to reach an all-time peak of almost limited time available. I am therefore imposing a limit of £12 billion. That is their legacy. eight minutes on Back-Bench speeches. If a Member takes an intervention, the eight minutes is increased by Chris Leslie: We now come to the point that the one minute, of course, and I urge Members to take that Minister has twice said he would address later on, so into consideration when deciding how long to speak will he address it now? Will the Chancellor of the for; otherwise, I shall have to decide for them. I call Exchequer be using his power as a shareholder in Michael Connarty. the Royal Bank of Scotland to allow its senior bankers to exceed the level of bonus beyond 100% of pay: yes or 1.49 pm no? Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Sajid Javid: That is exactly what I was coming on to If I refuse to take interventions, it will not be because I next. It is important for taxpayers that any proposals by do not think Members have a good contribution to RBS are considered fully and properly. The Government make, but because I would like to limit the length of my have not yet received a proposal from RBS on bonuses; speech. I recall often ending up with only four minutes once we do, we shall be in a position to judge whether it to speak when the debate started off with an eight-minute represents value for taxpayers. limit. 875 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 876

[Michael Connarty] say that they could get £6 million if they went to work for HSBC—well, good riddance to them, if that is how The Minister did not focus on the motion, but I they are going to run the banking system. We are failing always look at the motion on the Order Paper rather the same people that we failed under the last Government. than bring my prejudices with me and try to fit them I make no apologies for the last Government. They around the debate. The motion says that, so far, Government took certain choices, and I criticised them for it. When I reforms was at university, the banking system was a solid, “have failed to deliver a competitive banking system”. solvent organisation. I had a very right-wing professor, I want to focus on what has happened since the crash, Andrew Bain, who said that banks should have a low and on the behaviour of the banks that my constituency leverage point of about 12.5 times the level of its businesses have had to deal with, and ask why that reserves. That all went to pot under the last Government, should influence our decisions on bonus levels. and I do not see why anyone who criticised the Government for that should apologise. I welcome the EU regulation. I heard the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) on the radio The pattern at RBS is being repeated at the Clydesdale this morning saying that the European Scrutiny Committee, bank. I have been with that bank since I was a student. on which I am the longest-serving Labour member, Ballantine’s iron foundry had an order for £1 million of unanimously supported the position on an individual wrought iron work in this building. It had a full order veto for the UK on a number of items. In fact, he book. Following an offer from an account manager, it misquoted us. If he had looked at the policies in the transferred to the Clydesdale bank. The bank looked at document on the scrutiny of EU business in this House, the company’s £2 million of property assets and also he would have seen that paragraph 2.80 states that we judged its assets held in patents and rare mouldings to supported the idea of a red card for items in the EU. be worth £1 million. Further down the line, however, That would mean that a majority of the EU countries other people from the bank emerged to tell the company would have to agree to send back a policy, such as the that its property had been revalued and was now worth 100% bonus limit, to the EU in order to reject it. That is only £500,000 and that its patents were worth nothing. not the same as the UK having the right to mount an The company had been in existence for 180 years, and individual challenge to such a policy. its owner put £70,000 of his own personal cash into the In the public’s mind, this debate focuses on whether company’s bank account to keep it moving and to prove the banks have changed their behaviour, whether they to the bank that his business was viable in the long are better organised and are working better for our term. It was put into administration anyway, and it has constituents, and whether the people who run them now closed, with the loss of 70 jobs. I blame the deserve to get larger amounts of money as a reward for Clydesdale bank for that. what they have done in the interim. The reality is that This is the problem that I have: the Tomlinson report RBS, the bank that took a £44.7 billion bail-out from talked about RBS, but the problem is constantly occurring. the last Government, has again and again been awarded Banks have the ability to write down their own debt by substantial bonuses for failing. It has not been performing making good businesses go to the wall and selling off well. their assets to bring in money. They write off a debt and The Tomlinson report found that RBS had been bring in assets at the same time. That has been going on involved in what can best be seen as malpractice in its since this Government came to power. It happened relationship with the business community.Small businesses under the last Government as well, but we are talking have account managers at the bank who suggest that about what this Government are doing. they should take money from the bank. They are told Part of the motion that could hold out some hope for that they will be looked after by their account manager. people is the proposal to They are not told that, in the background, a group of “ensure that major new banking service providers are created”. people known as debt recovery executives are looking at The only way to achieve that is by splitting the big five those same deals and asking themselves how they can banks. Their domestic banking businesses would need make that company go bust and get its assets. They are to form a whole new banking system, with the risk-takers also thinking about how they can revalue those assets and speculators going off into other banks. The idea of downwards so that the company will be found not to be setting up little banks here and there will not work, solvent enough to pay its debts. although I must admit that I have taken advantage of I have watched that happen to businesses in my the facility of moving all my accounts—including my constituency again and again. They were told that they MP’s office account—to the Trustee Savings bank, which were getting a good package and a good deal, only for has now been split off from Lloyds. The Airdrie Savings someone to appear from another part of the bank to bank has also opened a new branch in the adjacent tell them that their assets had been revalued. Incidentally, constituency of Falkirk, and a number of people are the same valuers were used again and again by the bank going to it because they want to be treated as customers. to downgrade those companies’asset values. The companies When they talk to their account manager, they do not were then told that they were in trouble because they want to feel that there is someone in the back room could not pay their debts, but that the bank would give wondering, “How can I get money off this individual?” them another loan, charged at an additional 10% interest or “How can I trap this small business?” over and above what had originally been agreed. I have It is important for people to have new banks. We are watched company after company go to the wall on that not talking about bank closures, despite the myths basis. about that. We need to create a major new banking RBS is in print as saying that its bankers deserve a system by splitting the banks, and we need to encourage £6 million bonus, rather than the £4 million that they people to diversify and to leave a bank if it is not would be limited to under the EU rules. Those bankers treating them well. We also need to ensure that people 877 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 878 who get bonuses receive only the maximum allowed by and down the land. That cannot be done overnight—it the EU, and I hope that the Government fail in their takes time. Step No. 1 was to reform the system of challenge to that proposal in the European Court of financial regulation. That was an extremely thorough Justice. and elaborate process, involving many people from within this House and the other place, and as of last 1.57 pm year we had the final enactment and implementation. So we have taken some difficult and long-term decisions Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): It is a to reform the regulatory architecture in a way that will pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Linlithgow and make it impossible for this sort of crisis to occur in the East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). I, too, encourage future. many of my small businesses to look around and to act Secondly, we have established a long-term economic as customers. They do not have to stay with the bank plan for people and for businesses in this country. We they have been with since they were students. have reformed the way in which the economy is working: I could not believe the bare-faced cheek of the Opposition we have lowered the cost of mortgages for home owners; motion on the Order Paper when I read it this morning. we have lowered the cost of government for council tax I am sure you felt the same, too, Madam Deputy payers; and we have lowered the cost of fuel over and Speaker, because you will recall—in your very impartial above what the Opposition planned, so that people who way—the state of the banking sector when this Government drive to work do not have to pay that extra £11 in tax came to power. It is worth recalling the mess that we that had been planned for them. had to deal with when we took over. We had had the Thirdly, I come to the final piece of this journey in first run on a bank in this country for well over 100 years; passing on to future generations a banking sector that we had had the biggest banking failure in the world; is, once again, fit for purpose: addressing this problem and we had had a decision, taken under conditions of of the state-owned oligopoly. We cannot restructure the panic by the former Chancellor and Prime Minister, failed banks effectively within the Government’s ownership, effectively to nationalise large parts of the banking and the best way to say that we have closed this terrible system. The Opposition motion should acknowledge chapter that we inherited in the banking system will be that that was a deliberate decision. The natural course by privatising the banks that are publicly owned and of events under capitalism would have been for those returning them to the private sector. We have started on banks to fail, for all their employees to lose their jobs that with the sale of the first tranche of Lloyds shares. I and for the branches in all our constituencies to close, sincerely hope that the Minister will be able to reassure followed by a restructuring process taking place outside us that it is the Government’s plan to return Lloyds state ownership. Instead, we have effectively perverted shares to the private sector. the course of capitalism, and that was a deliberate choice. I also argue that it is in the best interests of the economy and the country that we move now to return Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): Will my hon. RBS, whose share price is still well below that paid by Friend remind the House who the architect of the the former Prime Minister for its shares, to the private Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 was? That Act sector, even if that means recognising and crystallising a set up the Financial Services Authority, the regulator loss which is the price we pay for Labour’s banking that manifestly failed to regulate the banks properly, failure. At the moment we are in the worst of all which allowed the collapse to happen. Will she also possible worlds: we have a system where we need to remind us who the City Minister was at the time of the allow new entrants to come into the space, but a large banking collapse? semi-state-owned dinosaur is taking up a lot of market share. It would be better for that to be restructured Harriett Baldwin: I think I am right in saying that the effectively within the private sector. then City Minister is now the shadow Chancellor. My My argument today is that the Government need to hon. Friend rightly reminds us that the regulatory get out of the banking business as quickly as possible. It architecture that allowed this disaster to occur was also is not the role of government to be setting the compensation set up by the previous Government. Having been regulated of every banker in this country. The Government must by that regulator for many years, I know how important set the framework and the regulation, but this level of it is that the regulation of banks has been returned to micromanagement is a function—a symptom—of the the Bank of England. That is important because the terrible inheritance that we received. By getting out, we Bank of England sees the canary in the coal mine when must recognise that we will reform the banking sector banks have problems with day-to-day liquidity. The for our children and our grandchildren. It will mean Bank of England was able to see such problems in the that those banks will then restructure within the private run-up to the crash, whereas the Financial Services sector, and the socialists will never be able to get their Authority, in its lofty headquarters in Canary Wharf, hands back on running a large sector of our economy. was at one remove from that, and there was no ability to join up the reaction. My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. 2.5 pm At the start of this Parliament, our Government Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am inherited, in effect, a state-owned oligopoly in the banking grateful to be called in this debate, Madam Deputy system, and that is not a good place to be if we want to Speaker, and to follow the hon. Member for West achieve a competitive and healthy banking system. The Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin). I do not necessarily Government have embarked on a long-term economic share her views or her assessment, but she made an plan to reform the banking system and make it more illuminating contribution. Given today’s news about responsive to the needs of businesses and consumers up RBS, this is a pertinent and timely debate for the 879 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 880

[Andrew Gwynne] Let me turn first to lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. I despair when companies come to see me Opposition Front-Bench team to have called, and we as their Member of Parliament and set out perfectly must take the opportunity to debunk some myths that viable business propositions to which, before the banking have been allowed to penetrate into the debate so far. crisis, banks would have fallen over themselves to lend First, we must point out the fact that the banking money, and yet they cannot even get a foot through the crisis was global. The Minister gave a history lecture, door. We must ensure that the Government’s attempts but perhaps conveniently the chapter he missed was the to get banks lending start to work, because it is just not one on Lehman Brothers’ collapse in New York in happening at the moment. Indeed, the most recent data September 2008, which triggered a tidal wave of chaos show a huge drop-off in bank lending to small businesses, across most major western economies. I would argue which should cause some concern to the Treasury. that the action taken by the previous Labour Government There are still too many communities without good was necessary; we all remember the queues outside access to banking services, and branches continue to Northern Rock and the chaos that was created, and close. That is a huge problem not just in rural communities, default would have been a disaster, for not only the but in some of the most deprived urban communities. It British economy, but for the wider global economy. is very much a social justice issue. People should have Confidence would have completely collapsed in the good access to banking services within their community. banking sector and we would have seen a run on all Perhaps there is a greater role in that regard for the Post major high street banks. The alternatives to Labour’s Office. One scheme under the previous Labour Government action would have been disastrous and it is not worth was to increase the number of free cashpoints in our contemplating them. The action was costly to the public most deprived communities. It was outrageous that purse, but nobody—none of my constituents or those people in some of the poorest areas were charged to get of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire—lost their cash out of machines. The previous Government were savings. That is an important fact to remember, as it absolutely right to install 600 free cashpoints in such shows precisely why the banks that think it is back to communities. However, some of those measures have business as usual just do not get it. stalled under this Government, and there is a lot more It was not only this bonuses-as-usual mentality from that we should be doing to ensure that the most deprived the banks but some of the other structural weaknesses communities have proper access not just to free cashpoints that remain within our banking system that allowed the but to a full range of banking services. LIBOR and Euribor rigging attempts for which RBS, In conclusion, we need a vibrant and socially responsible Lloyds, Barclays and Deutsche bank were fined by the banking sector, and ensure that bad practices are ended. regulators, to take place. It is also the mis-selling of The Government must recognise that banks have an interest rate swaps and of payment protection insurance— important role in our communities, offering services and lending to businesses, and they must face greater Mark Garnier rose— competition. The Government and the banks must Andrew Gwynne: I will not give way because many recognise that it is far from business as usual. It is time hon. Members wish to contribute. Clearly, those structural for proper banking reform. weaknesses remain in the banking sector and the Government should be doing more to address them, both in the UK and globally. I would like the British 2.13 pm Government to take a lead on addressing banking Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is reform, not just in this country, but across Europe and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Denton and across the globe. Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). I agree that this is a timely The banks also have a social obligation to taxpayers. debate, but I repeat the concern that I expressed at the I said that the Labour Government’s action was costly start of the debate that it clashes with a Treasury to the public purse and important to secure people’s Committee hearing and that it is a shame that its savings, but I do not believe, unlike the hon. Lady, that members cannot be present. I plead with the Opposition we perverted the course of capitalism, because the Front-Bench team not to squeeze important debates alternatives would have been disastrous. However, banks such as this with other subjects. I could not get in to should be doing more to help the Government meet speak in the food banks debate, because there were too their social needs and the wider social needs of society— many of us. None the less, I am pleased that I am on my those for whom it does not feel as if the recession is yet feet today, debating this important matter. over. That is why the proposal from my hon. Friend the Bournemouth East is renowned for being a wonderful Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) to have the seaside tourist resort. What is less well known is that it bankers bonus tax to fund a compulsory jobs guarantee is also a thriving business community. Many financial is absolutely right and why I think he gets it. It is also services organisations choose to use this corner of Dorset right that the bank levy should also be increased, specifically to base not only significant operations, but their to fund the expansion of free child care for three-year-olds headquarters. They include the Nationwide building and four-year-olds from 15 hours a week to 25. The society, the Liverpool Victoria, Unisys UK, RIAS Government try to make out that this is the same pot of Insurance, Barclays and that giant US bank, JP Morgan. money. We are talking about two very different socially Whether such financial institutions are based in responsible measures that will ensure that the banks Bournemouth or London, they are a reminder of our start to repay what they owe to society success in attracting international firms to this country. Finally, bank lending and access to bank services are Those firms could go anywhere in the world to do their important if the banks are to take on socially responsible business, but when they are based here they bring jobs, roles in securing the recovery and helping local communities. investment and prosperity. 881 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 882

It is no fluke that so much of the financial services Labour tries to portray this situation as a global industry chooses to locate in the UK, making us the phenomenon—we have just heard that from the hon. world’s leading centre of finance. The firms that invariably Member for Denton and Reddish—and there is no choose Britain in which to do their transactions cover a doubt that there is a global context in which to place it, range of services, including insurance, accountancy, but it is no good blaming the US subprime market or shipping, legal services, hedge funds, private equity, Lehman Brothers. I note that in 2008, when Lehman asset management or investment banking. Two hundred Brothers collapsed and all these events were happening, and fifty-one foreign banks are based in London. We banking bonuses were £11.5 billion. To place that in are the leading global financial services centre, and the context, the figure now is £1.5 billion. The alarm bells single most internationally focused financial marketplace were ringing at the time, but nothing was done. in the world. Closer to home, away from Fannie Mae and Freddie I am saddened to hear some of the comments from Mac, Northern Rock was handing out 120% mortgages. Opposition Members, from which I hope the Front-Bench That was a British issue. The Royal Bank of Scotland team will distance themselves. They did a disservice to and its reckless purchase of ABN Amro after the credit the banking industry when they mocked those MPs markets had already seized up was also a British issue. who had been bankers. We cannot blame any other part of the world for that. It We have an unrivalled concentration of capital and has taken a new Government to reform the regulatory capabilities as well as a regulatory system that is now system from top to bottom and restore Britain’s reputation effective, fair and indeed principled, which means that as a competent, global financial centre. more overseas financial institutions and investors choose I know that other Members want to speak, so let me to do business in and with the UK than any other say in conclusion that the Government have acted to country. For example, there is a $1.9 trillion exchange transform the banking industry through four key areas turnover every single day in London. That is 37% of the of reform. The first area is supervision. The Bank of global share. Around 600 foreign companies are listed England is back at the centre of the supervisory regime, on the London stock exchange, which is 18% of the with new powers to identify and address risks to ensure global total. That shows why Britain is so important. that banks do not threaten our economy in the future. We may think that these big organisations are separate The second area is structure, with new laws to separate from us, but let us pause to think of some of the the branch on the high street from the trading floor and financial moments that we might experience in our lives. therefore protect customers. The third area of reform I am talking about buying a home with a mortgage, deals with the cultural perspective by imposing higher seeking a loan to start our own business, or starting our standards of conduct on the banking industry and retirement and drawing our pension. On each of those recognising the reckless misconduct that leads to bank occasions, we look to a financial system that we can failure. The final area is competition, which empowers trust. I urge Members to be careful when they call for customers and gives them the greatest choice. That increased levies against banks or random caps on bonuses should incentivise innovation and competition in the from the banking sector. We should also be careful banking sector. about making fun of those who served in that sector, Our country paid a high price for what went wrong and who now serve in this place. with the banking system. It has taken a new Government Let me make it clear. People who work in all those to restore order, confidence and control in a sector that banks and institutions in Bournemouth are not rolling is so vital for the rest of the economy. in money; they are not millionaires. They are hard-working individuals who will not get the huge bonuses that have been spoken about in this place. In today’s global, 2.20 pm technological, 24/7 economy, it is simple for a firm to Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow relocate to another part of the world. That would mean the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), losing UK jobs, taxes and, most importantly, influence although I am afraid that I shall disagree with a number over the regulations. It is important that we exert a of the things he said. modicum of control when we have this debate. We do not want the hysteria that we saw in the interventions at The public want a banking system in the UK that the beginning of this debate. works for them. At the moment, they do not have that. None the less, I do not dismiss the seismic failure and As I mentioned earlier, figures from the Investors Chronicle irresponsible behaviour of part of the banking industry. suggest that even now bank lending is massively biased Indeed, it is the failure of our banking system that has towards the financial sector and against the manufacturing caused the biggest economic downturn in this country. industry. About 20% of the economy in my constituency We saw banks lend funds that they did not have to is based on manufacturing, as is about 10% of our people who could not afford them and in ways that they national economy, but only 2.6% of the stock of bank did not understand. The banking system failed because debt is spent on manufacturing. It is absolutely clear it was not properly regulated. First, the Bank of England that the banking system in this country does not address was stripped of its responsibility for keeping the banking the need for the creation of a competitive dynamic system safe. Secondly, the Financial Services Authority economy, not just in the south-east and in the square was focused only on compliance and individual rules mile that is the City of London, for which Ministers and so missed the bigger picture. Finally, there was often seem to speak, but in the rest of the country. failure at the Treasury, where the banking division was We need a banking sector that supports business and run down. As a result, the total debt reached five times manufacturing across Britain. We have a Government the size of the entire economy; 10% of the entire wealth who are committed to supporting a banking sector that of this country was lost and hundreds of thousands of represents only one part of the economy, the financial people lost their jobs and livelihoods. sector, and only one area of the country, the south-east 883 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 884

[Ian Lucas] We must shift power away from those people in the City who pay themselves £5.8 million a year and back of England. That goes back far beyond 2006—it goes to local communities, which will then invest local money back to the 1980s, when we had an economic sector that in local institutions. That was what the Northern Rock relied not just on banks but on organisations called building society was like before Mrs Thatcher got her building societies. Building societies were extremely dynamic hands on it. Such organisations would invest in local funders of economic activity across the country and communities, providing jobs in construction and houses they were regional institutions. for local people. It is as simple as that. When I became a solicitor in 1986, the main lender of Part of the problem with the banking industry is that mortgages was the Halifax building society. It is gone; it far too many people in it are too clever by half. They has disappeared. The Leeds Permanent building society think that because they understand what a derivative is, was a major source of lending that contributed to the they can tell the whole of the rest of the world how to construction sector. I come from the north-east of run the economy. We must go back to the principle that England, and the hon. Member for Bournemouth East was successful during the industrial revolution, when mentioned Northern Rock. When I was born, the Northern local banks supported local investment. We must go Rock building society was where my relatives put money back to building societies, which even the Business into an account. It was a building society to support Secretary has said were an important driver of the people in the north-east in building homes for their economy in the 1930s. Unfortunately, we have a children, and it was destroyed by the demutualisation of Government who are not creating extra competition in the 1980s and 1990s. the banking sector. They are going back to where we The centralisation of the banking and building society were before the crash happened and, because of that, economy happened as a consequence of the demutualisation they are going to fail. and privatisations of the late 1980s. More and more financial power was concentrated in the City of London, away from local communities. Banking and building 2.28 pm societies became completely divorced from the communities Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I that they represented. As a consequence, we have the congratulate the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) obscenity of bankers’ salaries being paid by such on a thoughtful speech. At least it ranged wider than organisations. The chief executives of RBS, which has the speech of the shadow Chief Secretary, for whom I taken over the Halifax building society, and of the have great respect but who surprised me by concentrating Lloyds Banking Group are paid £5.8 million a year with quite so much on bonuses, when this whole matter is of all the bonuses they receive. Those figures are from the much wider import, quite frankly. Indeed, bonuses are end of 2010. Such salaries are out of step not only with an infinitesimal part of our banks’ throughput and the experience of the poorer people in our communities lending power, which is what I want to concentrate on. I but with that of the middle classes. They are out of step welcome this debate and the thought that a successful with the people who become police officers or teachers banking sector is critical to our future policy. for £20,000 a year, and with the local businesses that need investment. We can argue about the reasons for the financial crash—I am sure we shall do so for the next 10 years—but The little businesses that need investment cannot there is no doubt that it undermined the fundamentals access finance because the people who run the financial of our economy. I praise the Government and welcome system in this country know that they can get faster, their attempt to rebalance our economy by strengthening quicker and easier returns in the short term from the the contribution of other sectors and of regions beyond financial sector. As long as that remains the case and we the City of London. I believe that the Government are have a centralised banking system, that will lead to a trying to do that, and the hon. Member for Wrexham non-competitive economic system. We must remember spoke about it. that our Chancellor told us in 2010 that that economic system would clear the deficit by 2015. He has changed It is easy to resort to banker bashing—I have done his mind since then; he has failed according to his own my fair share of it in the Chamber over the past three terms. He has redefined the rules of the game. years—but we must not forget that banks play a We need a complete change. We do not want to go fundamental role in our economy. We need to avoid the back to 2006 or 2007; we need to go back to an traps created by simple solutions and, indeed, sometimes economic system with devolved power and finance. We by European interference. I am fearful of the transactions need a regional banking system based not on North tax, which will harm the City enormously, and I hope Korea, but on Germany, where the Sparkassen system— that hon. Members on both sides of the House will [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi fight hard to ensure that it does not hit us in the way Kwarteng), who is a banker, probably does not know that a number of people in Europe hope that it will. anything about the Sparkassen system, because it supports Banks are needed first and foremost to maintain the manufacturing industry. If he learns anything from this supply of credit to enable the economy to flourish. debate, it should be that the important point is that The financial crash restricted the supply of credit to the banks under that system are geographically restricted, economy, in terms of mortgage approvals and business which means that they must invest in their local community. lending. I recognise the fact that, following the excessive Germans choose to invest in Sparkassen—20% of people use of collateralised debt obligations, banks needed to in each region invest in their Sparkassen, which then improve their balance sheets to lessen the risk of a invests in its local economy to provide jobs for young further crash, but the consequence of the response to people. It is not divorced from business and it creates the crash has had an impact on the wider economy and work for young people. our path to recovery. 885 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 886

There are welcome signs that the general economy is Much needs to be done, especially when we recognise recovering and that our macro-economic situation is our poor productivity figures. One of the great issues improving. Business and consumer confidence is returning, over the next five years will be to increase productivity which is critical. Growth is gaining momentum, and the in our businesses. There is an environment of relatively labour market is improving. Mortgage lending has increased stable prices and improving confidence, but we need to by more than a third during the past year. We have encourage business to invest for growth. Investment for witnessed the fastest growth in demand for mortgages growth means more jobs, high productivity and improved for more than six years, but bank lending to businesses living standards, so small businesses must have priority. is not so promising. The banks have failed to give them that priority, and I Despite the general surge in lending, the finance call on the Government to do more to ensure that they available to businesses from banks has been disappointing. get it. The funding for lending scheme has made only a marginal difference to lending to businesses. In November last 2.36 pm year, we saw the biggest drop in business lending for more than two years—more than five times the average Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): It is a joy to monthly drop. I accept that the fall is effected follow the hon. Member for Northampton South disproportionately by a fall in lending to large businesses, (Mr Binley), who has hit on a very important element of but it reveals a worrying approach to business lending, the debate: the role of banks in oiling the wheels of the despite the general optimism in other parts of the economy to ensure that it is healthy and grows. Today’s economy. debate is important, because despite the changes that the Government have made, the banks in the whole I therefore want to focus on one area for the remainder United Kingdom are clearly not fulfilling that function. of my remarks. I recognise the importance of small Indeed, if anything, initiatives like funding for lending businesses to the growth of jobs and to the well-being of and the disappointment there, the return to the bonus our nation. Small businesses are crucial to our future culture and the inability of the banks to lend to small prosperity, and the financing of those enterprises is a businesses all show that there is still a problem with the major issue that we need to get right. They employ banking system. more than 14 million people and generate more than £1,500 billion for our economy. Problems with access to I want to deal with two aspects. First, the hon. finance are indicative of broader difficulties in the economy Member for Northampton South said that he was and have serious consequences, as I know from the disappointed with some of the comments about bonuses, businesses in my constituency. and the Minister has tried to dismiss them by saying that they are only headline chasing nonsense. In an age Some people argue that there is no problem with of austerity, and given the political context in which we bank lending to small businesses and that the present are debating the issue, this is not headline chasing issue is one of a lack of demand. Perhaps some small nonsense and should not be lightly dismissed as such. businesses are not seeking credit to invest and have constraints on their ambitions to grow. Perhaps a number The vast majority of people cannot understand why a of small businesses have generated cash surpluses that Government who are pursuing rigorously—and, I believe, are available for investment, as confidence continues to with some justification—a pay policy that restricts public grow stronger. The Treasury estimates that amount of sector pay are at the same time giving priority to challenging money at more than £500 billion. an EU ruling on bankers’ pay. I do not mind EU rulings being challenged; I can think of many other EU rulings The funding for lending scheme has, however, failed that I would like the Government to challenge. But let to meet the aspirations that we were promised it would us face it: we are talking about a public sector organisation, instigate. I welcome the decision of the Governor of the so the Government are in effect challenging their own Bank of England to make business lending the sole pay policy for some of the most well-off people in beneficiary of the scheme, rather than using it for all society through the courts. This is not headline chasing loans. Plainly, he feels that more needs to be done in this nonsense, and it is difficult for the public to understand. area, but the position seems fairly clear: funding for lending has made a difference for individuals, but not Mr Ellwood: I will keep my intervention short; I am for small businesses. The Federation of Small Business conscious of Madam Deputy Speaker’s guidance. The has argued that many small businesses have been affected concern is that if we introduce the EU rules, many by a lack of access to financial support during the organisations will choose to leave the EU and base recovery and have relied on non-bank lenders to keep themselves in Singapore, Hong Kong and other parts of them afloat, and that simply is not good enough. the world. Although the spirit of the proposal makes I agree with the Government that business investment sense, the real consequences are that it could damage needs to increase. The Treasury estimates that a 10% increase financial investment in the EU. in business investment in 2012 would have stimulated gross domestic product by a further £12 billion Sammy Wilson: I could believe the hon. Gentleman if —almost one percentage point in 2012, when I was there was some evidence of that. Ministers have boasted calling for more lending. Cash balances in the non-financial today that they have cut bonuses by 60%, or whatever it sector have grown by £104 billion above the pre-crisis is, over the last few years, but we have not seen a flight level. Work is needed to translate improved business of capital from the UK or a flight of banking business confidence into investment. Indeed, business investment to Singapore or elsewhere. They cannot argue that they is more than 25% below its pre-crisis peak. That is not a are restricting the ability of banks to pay bonuses while salutary figure, when we rely on small and medium-sized claiming that if we do that the banks will leave the business to provide the growth and to generate the country. There has been no evidence that banks cannot wealth that we need. recruit or retain people or get the best people, despite 887 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 888

[Sammy Wilson] Minister and the Opposition spokesman have to say about what can be done in such cases, whether it is the the fact that the Government have said that they have kind of localism referred to by the hon. Member for restricted bonuses. The question is often asked: what is Wrexham (Ian Lucas) or the introduction of a big new an appropriate level of bonus? We have not had an player that is not contaminated by the property loans of answer. the past, splitting up some of the existing banks to We are talking about a state-run bank and we are not ensure that that will happen. If we continue with the even considering senior executive posts. Cases cited present banking structure, we will not find a way out of today concern an individual with an increase on his the current recession. That is why the need for increased basic salary of £1.7 million to £4.8 million, an increase competition referred to in the motion is as important as of 133%. Is that enough? Another individual has a the need to restrict bonuses. basic salary of £700,000, which after bonuses is £2.1 million, a 300% increase. Is that enough? Another individual 2.46 pm has an increase from £775,000 to £3.3 million, an increase Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I naturally share many of of 450%. Is that enough? The increases go right up to the concerns expressed today, but a common theme 600%. When do we stop? Surely the Government must seems to be emerging from these Opposition day debates have some view on this, but we have not heard it. That is about business and financial issues, whether they be on why this debate on bonuses is important. We cannot energy, gambling or banking. The Labour party makes have a state-run bank where bonuses of up to 600% are a mess of things in government, realises there is a being given but the Government seem to have no view problem when it is in opposition and then proposes the on it, whereas they do hold the view that public sector wrong solutions, although they help it with its headline workers on £14,000 a year should not get a 1% increase. writing. That is why it is important. It is not headline-chasing Let us look at some of the issues, the first of which is nonsense. competition. I checked this morning and right now 55 The second issue that I want to deal with is competition, different companies are offering current accounts; there which is particularly pertinent to Northern Ireland. As are even 11 different types of account. It is now so we are sitting here today, the Northern Ireland Affairs competitive that many banks are paying people to have Committee is considering the banking structure in Northern current accounts. Therefore there is a real question as to Ireland where we have a particular problem because how restricted the competition is. A quarter of people 67% of the market is served by banks such as Ulster already do not bank with the big four, and TSB has just bank, which is part of RBS, the Bank of Ireland and been demerged to form a new high street bank. But high the First Trust bank, both of which had to be bailed out street banks are only part of the story. It is not in the by the Irish Government. All those banks find that their motion, but we see from the press that the Labour party lending ability is hugely impaired by the bad loans and will try to force banks to demerge their branches. In the bad decisions that were made during the property fact, a lot of banking is not done that way at all. I have boom in Northern Ireland, and now they are trying to not had a bricks and mortar branch, for business or consolidate their balance sheets. Lack of competition is personal reasons, since 1989, when I took out the First one reason why from 2010 until now lending to businesses Direct telephone banking service. How would that proposal in Northern Ireland has fallen by 12.5%. During the work anyway? A banking analyst speaking to the BBC last year, it fell by 5%, even at a time of growth when today asked: one would expect businesses to need to obtain further “What makes anybody believe that there’s a queue of people finance. willing to buy these branches? New and smaller banks—they The Tomlinson report did not really cover Northern don’t want more branches, they want more apps.” Ireland, but the excesses that it identified are to be There is an important point that we need to recognise found to an even greater degree there. Constituents about technology, which leads to the concerns expressed regularly come to me about property loans and the first by some Members about what will happen to rural question I ask is whether they stopped paying the loans, banking systems. Clearly, not everybody has access to but they were servicing their loans and paying the apps and the internet. I assure the hon. Member for interest, and in some instances they were even paying Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) that the scheme down the capital, but their bank deliberately changed for cash machines in deprived areas is still in operation, the rules and withdrew the facility, sometimes on a as I know from my constituency. technicality, and sometimes on a technicality contrived We know that everything in the banking sector is far by the banks. The loans were called in, and when the from rosy. Many hon. Members have spoken about properties could not be sold, Ulster bank rode to the business lending, and I am particularly concerned about rescue and offered to put them on the West Register and the manufacturing industry, which is important in my buy them at a deflated price, even though there was an area. The banks are lurching from one scandal to the income stream and, had it waited long enough, the next: payment protection insurance, LIBOR, foreign property market would have picked up some of the exchange fixing and interest rate swaps. A business difference. The result is that many viable businesses in my constituency, Python Properties, specialises in have been sent to the wall by the actions of the banks refurbishing iconic commercial buildings, which it has seeking to repair their balance sheet at the expense of done in South Bank, also in my constituency. It now has the real economy. The businesses then had to put people tenants waiting for the next floor of a building that it out of work because they were declared bankrupt. That has been refurbishing, but it does not have the cash to is why there is a need to restructure the banking system. do the work, because HSBC is still holding out on If there is a need to restructure the banking system in paying it compensation for an interest rate swap. I hope Great Britain, there is an even greater need for competition Ministers will urge the banks to get on and pay out in Northern Ireland. I look forward to hearing what the money for those swap arrangements. 889 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 890

The Government have done good work in tightening that Ministers will meet a consortium of people from up on tax avoidance—it is still far too high, but was rife the north-east who are busy trying to set up a north-east before this Government took office—to the point where bank. HSBC and Barclays have now effectively disbanded Setting up banks needs to be made easier. The uncertainty their tax avoidance advice teams. We are seeing some that some of the Opposition’s proposals create for what progress, but there is a lot more to do. The culture of are, after all, commercial organisations is extremely the banking industry is still not what it ought to be. unhelpful. They are now talking about imposing market The Government have been taking action, of course, shares on commercial operations in the banking sector, partly through frustration, by setting up new banks. making them get rid of parts of their operation and The Business Secretary says that he is the first person to dictating how much they can pay their staff. That is a set up new state banks since Victorian times, as the dangerous precedent, because ultimately we have to green investment bank and the business bank are now ensure that competition deals with those things. That is operational, but let us not forget the Financial Services why I welcome the steps that the Government are (Banking Reform) Act 2013, the Financial Services taking. Act 2012 and, as I have mentioned, the agreement on The Government have a permanent bank levy. I am tax avoidance. There is also now a permanent bank surprised that the Opposition want to reduce bank levy, as well as inquiries into LIBOR and the banking bonuses further, because taxing bank bonuses seems to inquiry itself. be the main source of finance for most of what they Bonuses are now more directly linked to performance want to do. It reminds me of a story I used to read to in what are, after all, commercial businesses. I know my children, “The Magic Porridge Pot”—it never stops that the Business Secretary is taking steps on executive producing porridge. pay, for example by giving shareholders binding votes Today the shadow Chief Minister could not bring on a company’s pay policy. The Government cannot himself to apologise for what happened under the previous run away from their responsibilities for RBS or Lloyds, Government. We have had apologies from the Leader of as many Members have said, because they are a major the Opposition, the shadow Chancellor and the former shareholder in those organisations. They have a role in Prime Minister. History has taught us that we should the decision-making process under the new rules. As the never allow the Labour party to be in charge of the Minister said, the Business Secretary is taking steps on economy again and that we should continue with the executive pay, unlike his predecessor, the one who said further steps that are needed to improve our banking that he was sector. “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”. 2.55 pm Under the previous Government, capital gains were taxed at 18%, but this Government have increased the Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Like other hon. rate to 28%. People were allowed to put up to £250,000 Members, I want to speak about some of my constituents’ a year into pension schemes and still get full tax relief experiences with the banks, particularly in relation to on it, but that figure has now been reduced to £40,000. small business lending. The banks’ behaviour changed The higher income tax rate was 40% for the whole overnight when the global financial crisis hit, as a period that the previous Government were in office number of businesses in my constituency have made except the last month, and it is 5% lower now. As clear to me. They had been repaying loans for years and Members have said, we should take no lessons from the had never missed a payment, but suddenly the banks previous Government on that. called in the loans—the hon. Member for East Antrim However, setting up a bank is still not as easy as it (Sammy Wilson) made this same point—and many could be. It is a shame that the hon. Member for good businesses went to the wall as a result. That is Wrexham (Ian Lucas) is no longer in his place, because something I experienced, although our business did not I was very taken with his speech. As a north-east MP, I fail, but only because we were able to bail ourselves out vividly remember what happened with Northern Rock, by using personal savings. and not just the things he spoke about, but the loss of The problem today is that the banks are still not the Northern Rock Foundation, which put a lot of lending to small businesses. Most of the 4.7 million profit back into the local community. We need a greater small business—those with fewer than 10 members of emphasis on regional banking. It is not as easy as it staff—that I meet are unable to borrow money from the should be to set up a regional bank. I hope that Ministers banks. They will not lend to them, whether they are the will talk to Dave, who runs Burnley Savings and Loans— high-tech growth businesses trying to develop the products known as the “Bank of Dave”—who I think would like we need to develop our export industry or the mainstays to do more but feels constrained. of our communities—the service firms that support local communities up and down the country. The banks are not lending, whether the companies have a good Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I am following closely track record or a good business plan. It seems that the what my hon. Friend is saying about regional banks. In only firms that the banks are lending to—and even here America there are thousands upon thousands of community we are seeing some problems—are the larger ones, the banks. Would he like to see a development towards medium-sized companies that have significant assets community banks, which are even more local than against which they can borrow. I am afraid that the cost regional banks? of living crisis, which is hitting many ordinary people in this country, is also hitting those who own or run small Ian Swales: My hon. Friend makes an important firms. It is just as bad for small businesses as it is for point. Not only should we see that trend here, but the everybody else. The banks have a crucial role in turning Government should encourage it. To that end, I hope that cost of living crisis around. 891 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 892

[Bill Esterson] Ministers in different Departments—those responsible for post offices and those responsible for banking matters— My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) need to talk to each other, and of course to the banks as mentioned the German system and how he would like well. to introduce something similar here, and I agree. Having Labour Members have the right ideas about regional met representatives of the Sparkassen, I must say that banks and about how we could ensure that there is the they have a lot to teach us. They know their customers, lending to small businesses that is needed. There must are based in the regions where they lend, understand the be a change in the banks’ approach if we are to see the local economy and can lend only in that area. We could recovery and the investment in business that will lead to also learn something about bonus culture from the the exports that this country desperately needs to move Germany system, because its regional banks’ remuneration forward in the short term and the long term. The is linked to the financial success of the economic area in banking system is crucial in this. Our proposed measures which they lend. It is not something that we could show the way forward. I hope the Government will pay introduce here directly, but we could certainly learn attention to them and take the action that is needed, something about having a bonus culture that is manageable, and not just carry on as they have during the past three proportionate, fair and based on success, and the right years. kind of success, rather than how much the banks lend. The banks in Germany are set up to produce jobs and growth and the banking system is designed to support 3.3 pm small businesses. Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am pleased to One of the interesting things I learnt from the Sparkassen follow the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), is that rather than us having to become better Germans, who gave a very measured account of some of the we should look at who created the German regional challenges facing the banking sector. banking system—it was this county, after the second It is absolutely right that we in this House should be world war. We based it on the old stable and steady talking about small businesses and the challenges they lending criteria that we used to have in the old regional face in trying to get credit and loans. I represent a banks. We developed the system in Germany using this borough that is almost exclusively dependent on small country’s experience and expertise. It is something that businesses from an economic point of view. Obviously I am afraid we moved away from after the big bang of we have Heathrow airport, but small businesses are the the late ’80s. predominant employers. Banks today are perhaps more We can learn from Germany, but there are good reluctant to lend to small businesses than they were examples in this country too, such as the Merseyside 10 years ago. Small businesses that need to have loans Special Investment Fund. It provides equity and loan approved are much more likely to feel confident in a less finance to small businesses in Merseyside, and it has centralised structure. They are happier dealing with been one of the few sources of such support to businesses loan officers they have known for a long time and if since the financial crisis. Some of its customers switched they have good local relationships. That gives them a lot to it having been turned down for loans by their banks. more confidence than some of the computerised and People who were unable to borrow from the banks have centralised forms of banking that we have seen. In succeeded with MSIF. Indeed, local bank staff across Spelthorne, lots of small businesses use export finance. Merseyside sometimes refer customers to MSIF because Because of the proximity of the airport, they are reliant their own computer says no, so even they understand on foreign trade to do their business. Credit lines are the problem. It is important to distinguish between very important for those sorts of businesses. banking executives and those who get large bonuses I suggest—perhaps this will find less agreement around and the ordinary bank staff who do a great job up and the House—that the bankers’ job is very difficult, because down the country, day in, day out, in serving their policy makers are saying, “We want your bank to lend customers in the retail sector—personal and business more money”, at a time when capital requirements are customers. higher. It does not take a very sophisticated appreciation We can learn a lot from MSIF about how to lend. It of finance—I was about to say that it does not take the does not just lend money but gives advice and management brains of an archbishop, which is very relevant in a support. It understands the local economy and aims to debate on finance—to realise that it is very difficult for support jobs and growth. It is not a bank, but it a bank to extend its balance sheet while increasing its performs many of the functions of banks and is filling capital. If we look at it as a pantomime horse, the two the gaps left by the banks. It shows what can be done in ends of the horse are pulling in different directions in this country in just the way that the Sparkassen do in being asked to raise capital and to lend money at the Germany. Those are two examples that we can learn same time. That is a difficult balancing act. from in supporting small businesses. Our proposal for I want to talk about the general condition of the regional banks has much in common with the German sector as it has developed over the past 10 or 15 years. model and with what is going on in Merseyside. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South I completely agree with my hon. Friend the Member Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) said, banks’ leverage ratios for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) about social were remarkably stable from the end of the second responsibility. Within a few yards of my constituency world war and going into the 1950s, right up until 2000. office, we face the closure of one branch of a bank. He It was only after the turn of the century that we saw the mentioned the role of post offices. I agree, too, that we almost frenzied credit expansion that made us so vulnerable should see post offices as another valuable element in in the final denouement when Lehman Brothers collapsed our banking system, but unfortunately we also face a and the crash happened. Labour Members have suggested post office closure not far from my office. Perhaps that many causes of the financial crisis extend back to 893 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 894 the 1980s, with big bang and all the rest of it. In terms The record of the banks over the past five years has of leverage ratios, though, the serious risk in the system been so riddled with abuse of power, criminal malfeasance, developed relatively recently, for lots of different reasons. reckless speculation, pervasive mis-selling of financial Labour Members would suggest that a culture of products, facilitation of contrived tax avoidance on an deregulation brought in by Margaret Thatcher was industrial scale, the rigging of the LIBOR and Euribor responsible for some of the recklessness in the system, interest rate benchmarks, a growing and dangerous whereas Government Members would suggest that it development of a shadow banking system, and continued was due to some of the reforms in 1997, particularly dalliance with the exotic financial derivatives which with regard to the Bank of England’s supervisory role. precipitated the worldwide crash of 2008-9 in the first At that time there was a great deal of complacency, place that, when combined with the fact that there has on both sides of the House, about the sustainability of been very little fundamental reform so far, there must this model. As has been repeated many times, we were be a serious risk of another financial cataclysm in the in an era when Cabinet Ministers were foreseeable future. “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”. The central fact about banking power in Britain today is that 85% of the public’s money in the retail That sentiment was not exclusive to Labour Front market is controlled by just five big banks, which can—and Benchers. The political establishment were quite content do—use that money without any accountability to the to see vast bonuses and big salaries extended across the public interest. The total gross spending of the banking City of London, for the simple reason that the tax sector reached £7 trillion—five times GDP—in mid-2011. revenues coming into the Government from the City Although it has somewhat reduced today, it still exceeds were extremely useful at that time. Even though we were total Government spending by a factor of almost 10:1. running deficits when the country was growing, we were That means that this tiny banking clique commands using a lot of those tax revenues for Government spending. more spending power to control the UK economy than There was a symbiosis in which we were all somehow the entire machinery of Government. complicit. I find it interesting that Labour Members suggest we cap bonuses, because they will remember How does it use that power? The most striking fact that, during the times of plenty, it was taxes on bonuses about the British economy over the past five years—we that gave such vast sums to the Exchequer, which it all know this—is that the banks’ lending to industry has used—more than used, because it had to borrow—to largely been negative for most of that time, while at the spend on public administration. same time the banks have continued with their indulgence in property, overseas speculation, tax avoidance and It does not make any sense for people in the House of risky derivatives. In the light of that, it surely is the case Commons to engage in banker-bashing when a lot of that the power of this dominant clique of the top UK the prosperity in the constituencies we represent has banks, which has been so badly misused against the been fuelled by this country’s success in financial services. public interest, has to be broken up. If we look across the range of financial services in banking, insurance, actuaries and accounting, we will see that all those professional bodies were largely encouraged Guy Opperman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give and developed on these islands. Britain has always way? been—certainly for 300 or 400 years—at the centre of innovation in the financial industry. We cannot simply Mr Meacher: I have no time to give way. turn our back on that or suggest that we should penalise By being too big to fail, the banks exacerbate moral and punish. That is not how we have developed or how hazard, because the knowledge of the explicit taxpayer we will get future prosperity. guarantee encourages excessive risk taking and recklessness. Although I absolutely share some of the concerns They have failed in their pre-eminent duty to keep expressed by Opposition Members during this very adequate funding flowing to UK business, and through reasonable debate—it has been much less political than their size and weight they choke off competition and one might have anticipated—I must say, once again, new entrants to the market. Initially, that should be that finance is something in which we are world beaters brought about by a clean break between retail and and we should not be ashamed of it. We should not be investment banking. The Vickers alternative of Chinese embarrassed about it; we should encourage it. Yes, we walls—separating the two functions within a single, should have more regulation and a stable regulatory still-integrated structure—is flawed owing to the fact environment—which, I hasten to add, was not implemented that the City will in no time circumvent it through over the past 15 years—but at the same time we must regulatory arbitrage. not forget that a lot of the prosperity and tax revenues Beyond that initial break, I believe there are strong that accrue to the Government derive from the continuing grounds for further disbandment, which several of my success of the City of London, as has been the case for hon. Friends have mentioned, in order to pave the way many centuries. for what Britain really needs at this time, which is regional banks such as the Sparkassen banks in the German Mittelstand and specialist banks concentrating 3.11 pm on infrastructure development, the knowledge and Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) information industries, investment for a low-carbon (Lab): This has been a timely debate and I say that economy, small businesses and so on. advisedly, having listened to the complacent, provocative The fact is that the finance sector is always the most and characteristically tribalistic knockabout from the dangerous component in a capitalist economy, particularly Financial Secretary, which seemed to me to be almost in the deregulated version imposed in the 1980s, and it totally devoid of any new, serious content. is surely clear that nothing like enough has yet been 895 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 896

[Mr Meacher] 3.19 pm done to give assurances to the economy and to taxpayers Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Greater competition, that we are now protected against the depredations of the desire for local banks and the Labour policy to close the finance sector. regional voluntaries are the issues of this debate. I have held two local banking conferences over the past six The truth is that the big banks knowingly gamed the months—one in Gateshead on 6 June and the other in system for so long in order to expand their balance London in December—and they were attended by in sheets ever faster and with ever lower capital ratios, excess of 350 people from various organisations, banks, based on the bogus claim that their lending was then accountancy firms and start-ups. It was very striking less risky. They even deliberately invented the colossal that, contrary to what the right hon. Member for Oldham credit default swaps market as an asset class in order to West and Royton (Mr Meacher) has recounted, there enable the hedge funds to speculate against collateralised was a tremendous desire for a large number of new debt obligations, and they gained regulators and investors banks, and that is in fact the reality. alike, using their vast lobbying power to create the relaxed regulatory environment which, of course, is at I have met the likes of Metro, Aldermore, the root of all of this. Handelsbanken, obviously Virgin, Cambridge and Counties—it was set up out of a local authority pension That lobbying power—probably the most formidable fund—and the Hampshire bank. A fantastic bank has in Britain—is still being used ferociously to chip away at been put forward by the Unite union, on behalf of any, or every, new proposed regulation at both domestic Labour, in Salford, and it is doing wonderful work. I and EU levels. As a result, capital ratios are still too have met Alex, who is the linchpin of that. He is a low; the proposal to raise them is wrongly being delayed fantastic lad, who is doing great stuff to try to transform until 2018-19 to fit in with Basel III; the use of offshoring how that local community bank provides services to the and tax havens has hardly been reduced at all; lending local community of Salford. to UK industry remains deplorably low; the shadow banking system has not been effectively tackled; and I therefore disagree with the doom and gloom approach managerial oversight will not be enforced until the Tyrie about there being no competition or new entrants. commission proposal, which is a good one, to hold Certainly, when I meet those from the Financial Services individual directors and executives to account by Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority, disqualification or a custodial sentence is implemented. including Sam Woods and all the individuals involved My last point concerns the control of the money with the regulators, they tell me that they have had in supply. The banks have, in effect, seized control of the excess of 25 separate pre-applications that they are now money supply. They have become major generators of considering. unsustainable asset bubbles, which is a source of great On 23 April 2012, when we debated local banks and instability to the economy and of enormous cost to the the need for greater competition—this is my seventh taxpayer. They control 97% of domestic credit creation speech on local banking in the House in the past three and have used their virtual monopoly over it to feed and a half years—the Labour party chose to vote to successive property booms and speculative foreign ventures delete clause 5 of the Financial Services Bill, which was while allocating—this is the key point—just 8% of the designed to create greater ease for new entrants to enter nation’s resources to UK productive investment in the the market and related to how far competition can form of manufacturing, communications and distribution. encourage innovation. I welcome the fact that the The case for bringing back control of the money Opposition seem to have changed their policy and supply to public hands—as was always the case in this would now like more competition, but the proof of the country until the 1980s—is crucial, partly to prevent the pudding is always in the eating, is it not? skewed allocation of national funding excessively towards An announcement has been briefed to Nick Robinson mortgaged property; partly to rebalance the economy of the BBC that the Labour party, if it gets into government, from finance to manufacturing when our balance of will ultimately close regional and local branches. As my payments on traded goods is currently running at a hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) deficit of more than £100 billion every year, which is made clear when he questioned the shadow chief Secretary, frankly unsustainable; and partly to channel a huge the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), amount more of our resources into real, productive that would have a massive impact on our local communities. investment, without which Britain will never recover its global competitive position. I am certainly trying to have more bank branches opened in my area. I am negotiating with my credit The banks have massively let down this country and union to see how far it can do that. Similarly, I am they continue to do so. The extensive restructuring of trying to create new banks in the north-east. As my the financial sector is critical for the future of this hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) has country, and that requires far deeper reform than the made clear, there is great scope for new entrants to do present Government are trying to get away with. so. The very fact that the big five are so complacent and have had so many problems, gives new entrants an Several hon. Members rose— opportunity, which is certainly being exploited by all those we have spoken about today. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. In that context, I want briefly to touch on two It will be obvious to the House that every speaker has matters—credit unions and the Church, neither of which taken their full eight minutes or more. I therefore have have been discussed. It would be a failure of this debate to reduce the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to if it did not deal with both of them. All of us should seven minutes. support our credit unions. I am certainly wholeheartedly 897 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 898 behind the Northumberland credit union. We must act to this country’s industry for wealth creation. I hope acknowledge that even though this Government have that he might consider his remarks in that light. I thank done more to give credit unions greater clout, power him for pausing to hear what I have said. and ability to lend, credit unions are still incapable of I want to speak about two matters—first, about filling the banking void and overcoming the current co-operation versus competition in regulation, and secondly, difficulties. about rebalancing our economy. I thought that those The only way forward is the creation of local community would be cross-party matters, but having heard what banks built on a credit union. I can give the House at some Government Members have said so far, I am no least three examples. I have already mentioned the bank longer sure. in Salford, which is the former Salford credit union. The On global co-operation in the regulation of financial Glasgow credit union is probably the biggest and most services, we in this House must recognise that we are successful in the country: it is effectively a bank in all part of an international global marketplace. That has but name. Finally, I have the Prince Bishops community been pointed out by British citizens since Adam Smith bank in Durham, which is the former Stanley credit sat on the promenade at Kirkcaldy and watched ships union. All are very successful and have great potential. going in and out of the port. As a Merseyside Member We need to follow such examples. of Parliament who sees very large ships coming in and To touch briefly on the Church, I welcome the fact out along our River Mersey, I am also acutely aware of that Justin Welby is the new Archbishop of Canterbury. that point. It is savage irony that 500 years have had to pass for us to have the new type of God’s banker, who is encouraging Fundamentally, in the face of a global international the Church to become involved in banking. It can only marketplace—financial services are undoubtedly such a be good if the clergy move from being reactive to marketplace—we have two choices. We can either work poverty and social deprivation—to their great credit, with our partners to regulate the industry, given the risk they are amazingly good at reacting in that way—to that it might pose to all our economies, or we can take being proactive. part in a global race to the bottom and allow global corporations to play one Government off against another. I suggest that the Church has a role, acting with their The bank bonus cap introduced by the EU is a classic credit unions and local community banks, effectively to example of that dilemma. become the offshoots and outlets of those community banks. After all, all the vicars that we, as constituency I argue that there are strong moral reasons to be MPs, know and deal with know which people are in internationalist, but there are clearly economic reasons great social deprivation, going to the food bank or too. This is a classic economic prisoner’s dilemma: we having problems with high-cost credit and need debt either work together and everybody benefits, or we advice. There is massive scope for the Church to take a work against others and in the end we work against our greater role by dovetailing churches with credit unions own interest. The G20 resolved in 2009 to introduce and community banks. I welcome the fact that the new global rules on supervision. Since then, the UK has Church has chosen to buy branches of Williams and acted unilaterally and has blocked global co-operation. Glyn’s bank, and is setting something up so that we can If we do not co-operate, we are doomed to compete go forward. If we can do that and become more proactive against our own interests in the long term. in our local communities, a huge amount can be done. I do not think that the British people are supportive In seven days’ time, I will meet my Northumberland of a Chancellor who has rushed to defend bankers credit union in Hexham to discuss how we can promote bonuses that can be several times the size of an annual the idea of taking the credit union, building it up and salary. The high level of variability in remuneration is creating a larger bank to make the situation so much leading us into the kind of cycle that we were in before. I better. If we do that, we will have in our regions and am worried that we are dooming ourselves to make the communities a bank that we can trust, with a proper mistakes of the past. I therefore ask the Minister to say brand name and identity, and one that is part of the what intention the UK has to work with its partners community, rather than something based in London or across the world to realise the promises that were made Frankfurt and completely divorced from that community. in 2009. That is the problem that we all face and have identified and, to their great credit, that is the problem that the David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I agree Government have made great efforts to address. completely on the need for global co-operation, as do In the interests of brevity, I will draw to a close, but I the Government. That is why the Basel agreements are very much urge all parties to make sure that they get being implemented in the UK, with everything that that behind local community banks. We have not always involves. However, there is a distinction between global done so, but we should do so in the future. co-operation and European co-operation. Why does the hon. Lady think that we should not follow global rules on bankers bonuses, which the Government would be 3.25 pm much happier to do if they existed, rather than European Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I am sorry rules? that the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) appears to be leaving his place, as I want briefly to say Alison McGovern: We seem to be hearing that argument that I am worried about what he said. He seems not to more and more from the Tory party. I am sorry to hear have heard the message from the public that they are it from the hon. Gentleman, who has previously spoken still dissatisfied with our banking industry. I do not sensibly about working with our European partners. It think that our financial services industry should be is as if Europe is the great problem and that Britain can about wealth accumulation; it is there as a supporting be part of a world that does not involve Europe. However, 899 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 900

[Alison McGovern] accurate, for the Government to say, “Well, we don’t have to bother” is not the answer. There were other Europe is one of the world’s biggest trading blocs, along aspects of the Minister’s opening speech that I really with the United States, so if we are not influencing have to pick up on for the record. Europe, where should we be influencing? The Minister gave the impression that under the The second question that Ministers need to answer is previous Labour Government income inequality where is their plan for rebalancing the economy. Given mushroomed as never before. By saying something the way in which they have acted in relation to the City, confidently enough, he hopes that nobody will ever coupled with the way in which they have acted in question it, but what actually did happen? Using the relation to the housing market, I suspect that we are Gini coefficient, the recognised measure, there was indeed getting the same old story from the Tory party. I would an increase in inequality from 37 to 40 from 1997 to happily have debated the points that were made by the 2009. I am not happy about that—I would have preferred hon. Member for Spelthorne about 1986 and the influence the Labour Government to have done more to close the that that moment had on our economy. However, I ask inequality gap—but the real mushrooming of income the Minister what the Government’s plan is for the City. inequality was from 1979 to 1997, when it sprang up Do they just want to reflate it all over again? Are we from 26—a low number, which means there was less back to Tory economics as usual—the so-called FIRE inequality—to 37. The Labour Government did not economy of finance, insurance and real estate—leaving turn it around, despite several measures to help those at us open to the same worries that we faced in the past? the lower income level—for example, addressing pensioner Let the City of London rip and never mind the risk to poverty, which most people recognise was done—but it the rest of the country! is simply not correct to convey the impression that our The way to deal with the risks that we face is to record on inequality was particularly bad. consider proposals for proper regulation, such as establishing a full reserve power to split banks into retail and investment I represent a constituency in a city where the financial arms if necessary. We need to keep our eye on the ring services industry is particularly important. In the last fence, as was suggested by the Independent Commission census, the industry accounted for 11% of all employment on Banking. There should be a review of the ring fence in the city. Many of my constituents work at some level to check that it is working and, if it is not, we should use in the financial services industry. I was talking to a the full reserve power for splitting the banks. constituent recently about the bonus culture. In his field of work, bonuses historically formed a substantial part We must also not take our eye off the issue of of earnings. They were expected and taken for granted. remuneration. The regulator needs more powers to However, they were deemed to be increasingly unfair to reform the rules if it is necessary. The British public are groups of employees who did not have the opportunity not comfortable with bank bonuses running away at to earn them. After much negotiation, the solution was two times people’s annual salaries. I would invite any to modernise pay by ending the award of bonuses. My Member of the House to talk to my constituents about constituent lost £7,000 a year in that process, which was how they feel about the incomes that are earned by nearly a quarter of his previous annual earnings. people in the City of London. They do not feel that it is in the best interests of this country to have such a I am sure that everyone will have grasped that my concentration of high earners. That creates risks for constituent does not work in the financial services industry. which they pay the price. The cuts that we have seen to He is not a banker; he is a joiner who works for the local authorities have hurt communities up and down council’s building services department. A bonus that is this country, but they were brought about by the actions paid every week or every year, with little or no reference of a very few people in the City of London. to performance, was, it was argued in the negotiation If Ministers do not take rebalancing seriously, people process, a distortion of earnings. Why is that argument in this country, and certainly those in Wirral and Merseyside, not applicable to the banking sector? My constituent will not forgive them. If they are serious about rebalancing, claims that morale has been affected by the changes— I simply ask them to say what steps they will take to turnover and sick leave have increased—but that made regulate the City properly. Will they explain to this no difference to the view that was taken on the bonus House—I am not sure that they will, but I would like culture. them to do so—how they think an ever-expanding City Does it matter to a country if there are vast differences of London that imports ever more risk into this country in income and inequality? I think it does matter. This is is helpful to the ordinary businesses and companies that not simply the politics of envy. We risk increasing social I represent in the Wirral? disconnect in our society. People feel that nothing changes. As politicians, we spend a lot of time being angsting 3.33 pm about why people engage less with politics and why, when we go to their doors, they say to us, “You’re all the Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The hon. same. Nothing ever changes. My life never changes. It’s Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) suggested that there not worth my while voting. Everything will just be the was a pattern to these debates. The pattern I am increasingly same. The rich will still be rich and I’ll still be the same seeing is rather like the schoolchild saying to the teacher, as I am.” We worry about how we can do something “I didn’t do my homework today because he didn’t do about that. his homework yesterday.”The answer to virtually everything in the Financial Secretary’s opening speech seemed to I submit that one reason for that is that people see be, “If Labour didn’t do it in 13 years, that lets us off great unfairness and great inequality, and they would the hook.” Regardless of whether his accusations about like something done about it. If we do not make some what the Labour Government did or did not do are changes, we risk seeing the gap between average voters—or 901 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 902 non-voters, as they are more likely to be—and the elite contributions from the hon. Member for East Antrim running the country get even bigger. Average voters feel (Sammy Wilson), who highlighted several issues about that the elite have nothing to do with them. bonuses, and from the hon. Member for Northampton There are other issues relating to banking. I am glad South (Mr Binley), who did not quite stick to the that the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) Government line all the way through when he raised spoke about banking for the less well-off. Increasingly, issues to do with funding for lending. and for all sorts of reasons, we would like those who are We had hoped to raise the tone and tenor of the less well-off to be banked. For example, those paying debate and move on from the banking reform Bill. I for energy bills through PayPoint usually end up paying think we would all agree that we need our banks to an extra charge on top of their bill, so that the poorest work for the whole economy—for individuals, small people without bank accounts pay the most. We want businesses and the large business sector—if we are to people to be banked so that they can get employment—it earn our way out of the cost of living crisis. As I is often a prerequisite because money needs to be paid highlighted when we were debating the banking reform into a bank account—and so that they can receive their Bill, the danger is assuming that the job is done and that benefits payments. no further reform is necessary. Now that that Bill has The previous Government took up the question of been passed, our concern, which was reflected by many the unbanked, through the introduction of basic bank of my hon. Friends, is that the banks will simply slide accounts and putting pressure on banks to do something back into previous practices or wish to go back to about it. It was their intention to make it compulsory business as usual. [Interruption.] I see some Government for banks to offer basic bank accounts, but the incoming Members agreeing with this. That is why we have concerns coalition Government chose specifically not to go ahead about bonuses. with them, and now only one of the major banks offers As many hon. Members have said today, there is a basic banks accounts; all the others have stopped. This question mark over how it can be justifiable, in a time of is important if people are to have the widest possible austerity, when everyone else is being asked to do their choice, and much as I support the credit unions in my bit, for bankers to seek excessive bonuses of over 100% area and much as I think they have a valuable role to of their annual salaries. I know the Minister said that play, they are in their present incarnation—and will nothing has been put forward by RBS yet and that he remain so without a lot more investment—very far would consider it when the time came—I suppose that from being able to substitute for proper basic bank will be “shortly”. Members of the public watching the accounts and provide for the least well-off. Banks need debate and the media, hearing the news and looking at to do something about that. It is another important the newspapers want to see a signal that the Government aspect of what they should be doing for the country. believe, as the Opposition believe, that taking forward these excessive bonuses is not the correct approach. 3.40 pm Mr MacNeil: What does the hon. Lady think could Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- be done with the money currently put in the bonus pot? op): As many hon. Members have said, this has been an What else could the banks do with that money if their interesting debate. Surprisingly, some Members thought bonuses were curbed? How else could they spend it; there had been a conspiracy to have this debate clash what could they do with it? with the Treasury Select Committee, but that was perhaps a conspiracy theory too far, to coin a phrase. Cathy Jamieson: The hon. Gentleman will know that It being the new year and the Financial Services Labour’s policy, which I am sure he will support, is to (Banking Reform) Act having been passed, I had hoped use the bankers bonus tax to fund a youth jobs guarantee. we might be able to move on. I thought we might have That would benefit Scotland, too, which I am sure he been in a position to debate where to go next, but would approve of. unfortunately, despite it being the new year, we did not Our motion highlights the fact that we have not yet hear anything new from the Minister, just the same tired done enough to boost competition in the banking old Tory lines, which was disappointing. The Minister industry—by encouraging the challenger banks, for example. boasts of his experience in the banking sector, so I had We have not looked at expanding the mutual sector hoped he might have been able to throw some light on either. Some hon. Members provided examples of new the debate, rather than simply trying to bolster his banks coming forward, but we should acknowledge that reputation as the Tories’ attack dog, which seems to be that has not yet challenged the main banking sector in his role at the moment. Also, he seems to have a new the way that we would like. middle name, because his response to every second We should recognise that public trust in the sector is question was, “I will come to that shortly”, but I am not still at a low level. I remain concerned that, during the sure he ever did. However, I am sure that we will hear course of the banking Bill, the Government rejected more answers from him in due course. both the fully independent licensing system for bankers We have heard some excellent contributions this and the idea, raised again in today’s debate, of imposing afternoon from my hon. Friends the Members for Denton a duty of care to customers and all those working in the and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), for Linlithgow and banking sector—a fiduciary duty. Opposition Members East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), for Wrexham (Ian have consistently argued that those two policies would Lucas) and for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), my right help to reform banking to make it work in the interests hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton of customers and the economy rather than of the (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friends the Members for bankers themselves. Despite the changes in the banking Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Edinburgh Bill, the original Vickers recommendations have been East (Sheila Gilmore). We also heard interesting rather watered down, particularly in respect of competition. 903 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 904

[Cathy Jamieson] begin, immediately, a full market study of competition in the retail and SME banking sectors, and I hope that A number of hon. Members discussed and provided the Government will take that on board. examples of lower bank lending to business, with it The public want to see a signal that the days of falling far short of what we need to boost jobs and excessive bonuses are over, and they want to see it now. growth so that our economy can recover. It was mentioned We do not believe that the present position is acceptable, that the Bank of England has reported a record £4.7 billion but nothing that the Government have said today has contraction in lending to business—the biggest drop in sent that signal to the public. Perhaps the Exchequer more than two years and nearly five times the recent Secretary is about to send it now. average monthly decline of £1 billion. That follows the decreases in lending in the UK by 3% each year since the start of the financial crisis amidst the failure of the 3.52 pm other schemes that the Government introduced such as The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Project Merlin and its business bank, which has not had Gauke): This has been a thoughtful and interesting the intended impact. debate. I particularly thank my hon. Friends the Members Little wonder, then, that the Government belatedly for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), for heeded Labour’s call to refocus on the funding for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), for Northampton lending scheme—a point made by the hon. Member for South (Mr Binley), for Redcar (Ian Swales), for Spelthorne Northampton South—and introduced change in an (Kwasi Kwarteng) and for Hexham (Guy Opperman), attempt to improve the supply of credit both to big all of whom made excellent and intelligent speeches. I business and to SMEs. Time after time, however, we am not sure that I would use quite the same words to have heard that small businesses in every constituency describe the speech made by the shadow Chief Secretary, have been unable to access credit because of the lack of the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), availability of loans and that the terms on which credit but I hope that he will not take that personally. I have a was offered often made it more difficult for them to take lot of sympathy for him—after all, he spent a number of it. Many report that they simply do not ask for credit, years making speeches in debates like this one, saying believing either that they will not get it or that the terms that we were going too far, too fast, and that a plan B will be prohibitive. was needed. We do not hear quite so much about that It was interesting to see a recent research report from now. the peer-to-business lending platform, rebuildingsociety.com, We have heard a fair amount about the cost of living showing that SMEs have stated that more than 21% of in recent months, but Labour party spin doctors have SMEs continue to suffer those restrictions. That is why been briefing the press that they are about to bring that 1 million SMEs have seen the lending terms from their campaign to an end, so where does Labour go now? bank worsen over the past five years. It is all very well to How does it fill the vacuum that exists where an economic say that the money is there, but the businesses are not policy should be? The answer is, “With a bit of banker- applying for it and are not going to the banks to ask for bashing.” I could say, “Same old Labour”, but in reality it. The reality is that nearly half of those who responded the rhetoric that we have heard today and during the in that particular survey have had their interest rate and current Parliament is not consistent with what the last their overdraft increase, while a third have had their Labour Government did. lending facilities cut. More than one in 10 SMEs did not even approach their banks for a loan, because they When it comes to dealing with the risks and excesses believed that they would be unsuccessful. of our financial system, Labour is in no position to criticise us. It is extraordinary that the people who We fear that things are sliding back to “business as crashed the car now wish to give us a lecture on road usual”. We are concerned about the whole question of safety. They left us with a regulatory system that had bankers’ bonuses and bankers’ pay. I know that during failed catastrophically—a system that had failed to Prime Minister’s Question Time today the Prime Minister identify risks, or, when they were identified, failed to do suggested that he did not want the overall cost to anything about them—and, when the crisis came, it was increase, but that failed to take account of the public’s not clear who was in charge. But who was the special concern about the fact that individuals in the banking adviser in the Treasury who was running the show when sector who are already highly paid are able to receive the tripartite regime was established? The shadow bonuses amounting to twice their annual salaries. Chancellor. And who was the City Minister in the Figures from the European Banking Authority, published run-up to the crisis? Again, the shadow Chancellor. at the end of 2013, reveal that the financial rewards It was this Government who produced the Financial handed to the City’s highest-paid bankers rose by a Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 and implemented third last year, and that more than 2,000 bankers in the the Vickers report, and this Government who established United Kingdom earned more than £1 million. That the Financial Policy Committee, involving the Bank of means that the UK contains 12 times as many high England once again and providing clear lines of earners as any other country. Top bankers picked up responsibility. It is this Government who have ensured bonuses averaging 3.7 times their basic salaries, a figure that we ring-fence deposits, separating them from volatile that has risen since 2011. The public want to know who investment banking, and it is this Government who is on their side rather than on the side of the bankers, so have introduced a bail-in power that protects taxpayers, that they can be sure that that does not continue, which to ensure that shareholders and creditors, not taxpayers, is why we initiated today’s debate. are first in line to pay for a bank failure. It was the last My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East Government who presided over a system whereby individual (Chris Leslie) pointed out that Labour had led calls for bankers could not be held properly to account. Under the Competition and Markets Authority to be forced to our laws—laws passed by this Government—reckless 905 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 906 management of a bank could result in seven years in behaviour or a need to rebuild regulatory capital. Under prison. Under the last Government, it could result in a the PRA remuneration code, large parts of bonuses knighthood. must be deferred and paid in shares, aligning the interests of the employee with the long-term interests of the Bill Esterson: Don’t worry, I’m not after a knighthood. bank. The implication of many of today’s comments is The Minister’s party colleague, the hon. Member for that there is a concern about total remuneration, yet the Northampton South (Mr Binley), made it clear that the motion and everything we have heard from the Labour funding for lending scheme has failed and that lending Front Bench is about only one part of remuneration: to small businesses has fallen. The Minister’s comments bonuses. The reality is that the European directive and have been notable in their failure to mention what he is the policy pursued by Labour will drive up salaries. It is going to do about funding for small businesses. Will he not clear why the Opposition are interested in only one tell us now? aspect of remuneration, and we have certainly not had Mr Gauke: Gross lending is up, but one thing that an explanation of that. It is also worth pointing out that will not help small businesses is if our interest rates rise the Governor of the Bank of England was critical of a prematurely because we do not have credibility. We have cap in his evidence to the Treasury Committee this given this country economic credibility and that has afternoon. helped to keep interest rates lower for longer. I am pleased that Labour appears to support the Our system ensures rigorous scrutiny before someone virtues of competition, but that was not its record in can have a serious position in a bank. Labour’s system government. There were 10 banks in 1997, but that could allow someone like Paul Flowers to become chairman figure reduced over the following 13 years. The Cruickshank of a bank. While fines went back into the banking report, produced in 2000, was supposed to encourage system in the past, now they go to support military more competition, but it was blocked by the Treasury charities and others. and nothing was done. Our record has involved a much greater focus on competition, and it is a primary objective Mr Binley: May I make the point that I did argue that of the Financial Conduct Authority and a secondary business lending from the funding for lending scheme objective of the Prudential Regulation Authority. We was very low indeed, and that is why Mark Carney took have a payment systems regulator, which makes things the action he did and why I want to see the Government easier for small businesses, and we have changed the make more sense of lending to small businesses, because application process to make it much more proportionate that is where growth and well-being are going to come for new businesses. Furthermore, the regulators indicate from? that 22 new banks are interested in acquiring authorisation in the UK. Mr Gauke: I agree with that, and we are focusing the On empowering consumers, our new switching policy funding for lending scheme on exactly that purpose. saw a 54% increase in switching in December, compared Mr MacNeil: Will the Minister give way? with the year before. We have heard Labour’s proposals for a quota system. We do not have the details, of Mr Gauke: No, I shall make some progress. course, but simply reducing the number of branches of We did not hear anything about the bankers’ bonus one bank will not create huge new levels of competition. tax from Labour today—at least we do not see much There are concerns about branches being lost under about it in its motion—although it is customary on Labour’s proposals. Most significantly of all, the Governor these occasions for Labour to identify yet another spending of the Bank of England told the Treasury Select Committee programme to be funded by it. [Interruption.] I wonder this afternoon that that would not help with competition. whether there was no mention of it today because the One other person has been critical of that policy in the Opposition are embarrassed by previous occasions when past. In April 2011, the shadow Chancellor said that they have claimed that more would be paid—[Interruption.] “there is no need to break up institutions”. The last Labour Government’s record on the banking Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. sector was lamentable. Their regulatory system failed, This has been a quiet and dignified debate. Members and their attempts to ensure that individuals were held who were not present during it have now come into the to account also failed. They tried to ensure that bonuses Chamber. I ask them to have the courtesy to listen to did not create perverse incentives, but that failed. They the Minister. tried to encourage more competition; that failed. They Mr Gauke: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do tried to protect taxpayers’ money, but that failed too. not know whether the Opposition are embarrassed by Their record is one of failure, and until they acknowledge previous occasions when they claimed more would be that, there is no reason why the British people should paid from a bankers’ bonus tax than was actually paid take anything they say on this matter seriously again. in bankers’ bonuses. Perhaps they have noticed that if Question put. they cap bonuses they will get less tax from them. They The House divided: Ayes 242, Noes 304. may want to revise their numbers on that. Division No. 179] [4.1 pm It has to be pointed out that it has been estimated that City bonuses in 2012-13 were more than 85% lower AYES than at their peak in 2007-08. I know there is genuine concern about bank bonuses encouraging short-term Abbott, Ms Diane Ali, Rushanara high-risk behaviour, but it is not just the amount that Abrahams, Debbie Allen, Mr Graham matters; it is also the structure of the bonuses. There is a Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Anderson, Mr David difference between cash bonuses and bonuses paid in Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Ashworth, Jonathan shares with the opportunity for clawback if there is bad Alexander, Heidi Austin, Ian 907 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 908

Bailey, Mr Adrian Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Sharma, Mr Virendra Bain, Mr William Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Sheerman, Mr Barry Balls, rh Ed Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sheridan, Jim Barron, rh Kevin Gardiner, Barry Meale, Sir Alan Shuker, Gavin Bayley, Hugh Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian Simpson, David Beckett, rh Margaret Glass, Pat Miliband, rh Edward Skinner, Mr Dennis Begg, Dame Anne Glindon, Mrs Mary Miller, Andrew Slaughter, Mr Andy Benn, rh Hilary Godsiff, Mr Roger Mitchell, Austin Smith, rh Mr Andrew Benton, Mr Joe Goodman, Helen Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Angela Berger, Luciana Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Smith, Nick Betts, Mr Clive Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Owen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Spellar, rh Mr John Blenkinsop, Tom Griffith, Nia (Easington) Straw, rh Mr Jack Blomfield, Paul Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Stringer, Graham Blunkett, rh Mr David Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Tami, Mark Brown, Lyn Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Thomas, Mr Gareth Brown, Mr Russell Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela Thornberry, Emily Bryant, Chris Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Trickett, Jon Burden, Richard Healey, rh John Osborne, Sandra Turner, Karl Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Owen, Albert Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Alan Hermon, Lady Paisley, Ian Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Vaz, rh Keith Clark, Katy Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Vaz, Valerie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Walley, Joan Coaker, Vernon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Powell, Lucy Watson, Mr Tom Coffey, Ann Hosie, Stewart Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie Weir, Mr Mike Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Steve Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cooper, rh Yvette Jackson, Glenda Reeves, Rachel Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Emma Williams, Hywel Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Riordan, Mrs Linda Wilson, Sammy Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Ritchie, Ms Margaret Winnick, Mr David Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Robertson, John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cryer, John Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Wood, Mike Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Woodcock, John Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruane, Chris Wright, David Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Wright, Mr Iain Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Sarwar, Anas Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Sawford, Andy Tellers for the Ayes: David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Phil Wilson and Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Seema Malhotra Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris NOES Dobbin, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Adams, Nigel Blackman, Bob Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Afriyie, Adam Blackwood, Nicola Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Long, Naomi Aldous, Peter Boles, Nick Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Caroline Amess, Mr David Bone, Mr Peter Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Andrew, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bradley, Karen Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Bacon, Mr Richard Brady, Mr Graham Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid Baker, Norman Brake, rh Tom Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana Baldry, rh Sir Tony Bray, Angie Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Baldwin, Harriett Brazier, Mr Julian Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Barclay, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew Efford, Clive McCann, Mr Michael Barker, rh Gregory Brine, Steve Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Baron, Mr John Brooke, Annette Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Barwell, Gavin Bruce, Fiona Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Bebb, Guto Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Beith, rh Sir Alan Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Chris McDonald, Andy Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, Conor Farrelly, Paul McDonnell, John Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Field, rh Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Alison Bingham, Andrew Burstow, rh Paul Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Binley, Mr Brian Burt, rh Alistair Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Birtwistle, Gordon Burt, Lorely 909 Banking15 JANUARY 2014 Banking 910

Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Skidmore, Chris Cable, rh Vince Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Chloe Cairns, Alun Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, rh Maria Smith, Henry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Smith, Julian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Smith, Sir Robert Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Soames, rh Nicholas Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Soubry, Anna Cash, Mr William Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Spencer, Mr Mark Chishti, Rehman Harvey, Sir Nick Morgan, Nicky Stanley, rh Sir John Chope, Mr Christopher Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Stephenson, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Hayes, rh Mr John Morris, James Stevenson, John Clark, rh Greg Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Iain Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Stewart, Rory Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Streeter, Mr Gary Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Stride, Mel Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Stuart, Mr Graham Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Sturdy, Julian Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Swales, Ian Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Swayne, rh Mr Desmond (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Syms, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Davies, Philip Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Thornton, Mike Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Thurso, John de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Dr Matthew Timpson, Mr Edward Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Tomlinson, Justin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Tredinnick, David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Truss, Elizabeth Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Paice, rh Sir James Turner, Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Tyrie, Mr Andrew Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Uppal, Paul Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Vaizey, Mr Edward Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Owen Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Vickers, Martin Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, Mike Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Walker, Mr Charles Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Percy, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Wallace, Mr Ben Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Sir Greg Phillips, Stephen Ward, Mr David Evans, Mr Nigel Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Watkinson, Dame Angela Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Pincher, Christopher Weatherley, Mike Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Fallon, rh Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pugh, John Webb, Steve Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Wharton, James Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Sir John Wheeler, Heather Field, Mark Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark White, Chris Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Whittaker, Craig Fox,rhDrLiam Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Whittingdale, Mr Freeman, George Leigh, Sir Edward Reevell, Simon John Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Wiggin, Bill Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Willetts, rh Mr David Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Mr Mark Garnier, Sir Edward Lewis, Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Roger Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber Williams, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruffley, Mr David Williamson, Gavin George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Russell, Sir Bob Willott, Jenny Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Wilson, Mr Rob Gilbert, Stephen Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Sir Peter Scott, Mr Lee Wright, Simon Glen, John Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Young, rh Sir George Goldsmith, Zac Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Zahawi, Nadhim Gove, rh Michael Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Tellers for the Noes: Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Sir Richard Mark Hunter and Green, rh Damian McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Mr Sam Gyimah Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Question accordingly negatived. Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Hague, rh Mr William McVey, Esther 911 15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 912

National Minimum Wage a person working in a chip shop in Birmingham who was earning just 80p an hour. That is sheer exploitation. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I must It is poverty pay and it was taxpayers who picked up the advise the House that Mr Speaker has selected the bill. amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Let us also remember what Government Members said back then. The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), now Secretary 4.15 pm of State for Work and Pensions, said in 1997 that a Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I beg to move, minimum wage would That this House celebrates the 15th anniversary of the introduction “negatively affect, not hundreds of thousands but millions of of the National Minimum Wage, which falls this year, and the people.”—[Official Report, 4 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 526.] contribution it has made to making work pay, boosting living The right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), standards and tackling in-work poverty; notes that, before the now Foreign Secretary, said back then that a minimum National Minimum Wage was established, poverty pay was widespread wage would have to be and that the Conservative Party and many Liberal Democrat hon. Members opposed its introduction; further notes that families “so low as to be utterly irrelevant” are on average £1,600 worse off a year and that the National otherwise Minimum Wage is now worth less in real terms than in May 2010; “it would price people out of work.”—[Official Report, 17 March further notes that the Government has not backed up its promise 1997; Vol. 292, c. 617.] to name and shame firms not paying the minimum wage; calls on the Government to strengthen enforcement of the National Minimum The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), Wage, including by increasing fines for non-payment of the now the Minister of State responsible for business and National Minimum Wage and giving local authorities enforcement enterprise, said that a minimum wage powers; and further calls on the Government to encourage employers “will add costs to British business”.—[Official Report,11July to pay a living wage and take action to restore the value of the 1997; Vol. 297, c. 1240.] National Minimum Wage so that the UK can earn its way out of the cost of living crisis and to help control the cost of social And the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), security. now Prime Minister and then a parliamentary candidate For me, the proudest achievement of the previous in Stafford, darkly predicted in 1997 that a minimum Labour Government was the introduction of the national wage would lead to a rise in unemployment. minimum wage. It was important because, as we know, the best way out of poverty is work and because taxpayers Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Conservative should not have to pick up the bill of subsidising bad Members are very keen on calling for us to apologise for employers. Making work pay is also vital to getting the things. Does my hon. Friend think that it is time for social security budget under control and we will not them to apologise for such comments? allow the Government to let the national minimum wage wither on the vine. Rachel Reeves: It is not just the Tories who should Fifteen years ago, on 1 April 1999, the national apologise; the Government’s junior coalition partners minimum wage took effect. We should and do celebrate should apologise, too, because they were worried back the difference it has made to millions of people. We then as well about the impact of the minimum wage. In have also called this debate today, at a time of difficulty 1994, their then leader attacked Labour’s for so many low-paid workers and with low pay a “umbilical attachment to a national, high-rate minimum wage” growing problem across our country, to call on the and said that Government to take action to strengthen the minimum “a national minimum would…force many on to the dole”. wage, crack down on rogue employers and restore the value that the minimum wage has lost over the past The Liberal Democrats went into the 1997 general three years. We call on them to do more to build a election with a manifesto commitment not to a national stronger economy that enables people to earn their way minimum wage but to a out of the cost of living crisis. “regionally variable, minimum hourly rate.” Let us be grateful that they did not get their way. Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Social Despite the then Opposition fighting the legislation care workers do one of the most important jobs in our tooth and nail, line by line, clause by clause, using every society. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that in trick in the book to slow, frustrate and obstruct its my borough, Westminster, and, I am sure, in others, progress, the national minimum wage became law. social care workers are not even guaranteed the minimum wage as the travelling time between appointments is not Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I am grateful to counted for the purpose of payment? the hon. Lady for her fascinating history lesson. I wonder whether her bit of paper also says that 500,000 Rachel Reeves: An investigation by the Low Pay Unit people lost their jobs under the previous Labour looked at pay rates before the national minimum wage Government and whether she agrees that the announcement was introduced and back then one worker in a residential made this morning demonstrates the Government’s absolute care home was paid just £1.66 an hour. I agree that commitment to ensuring that no employer will be able today, too, people working in that sector are too often to exploit their employees by paying unfair wages. exploited and that their employers get round the legislation. The Low Pay Unit considered pay before 1997 in a Rachel Reeves: Two million jobs were created under range of industries. I mentioned residential care but it the last Labour Government and employment reached also came up with other examples, such as a factory a record high, so I am not sure where the hon. Lady gets worker who was earning just £1.22 an hour in 1997 and her statistics from. 913 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 914

I have quoted the former leader of the Liberal Democrats enough, given that hundreds of thousands of people but, back then, where was the Secretary of State for are not even paid the very minimum wage of £6.31 an Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member hour. for Twickenham (Vince Cable)? He was nowhere to be seen in the debates. He was nowhere to be seen on the Rachel Reeves: At the Labour party conference, my voting record. On Second Reading and Third Reading, right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition called he failed to vote. Apparently, he abstained because he for the fine to be increased to £50,000, and I support had reservations about a minimum wage. Perhaps he that. It is also important that companies that get out of will stand up today to profess his concern for the plight paying the minimum wage are prosecuted, and we are of the low-paid. I am happy to take an intervention not seeing that under this Government. from the right hon. Gentleman if he wants to make one. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): With regard to the advert about the security guard and Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Although the Secretary the dog, I remind my hon. Friend that the RSPCA of State for Business, Innovation and Skills had reservations refused to allow the dog to work, yet the security guard about the minimum wage, many of my neighbours who had to do so. worked in the security industry on 90p or £1 an hour My hon. Friend is running through a list of the back then are eternally grateful for the Labour abstentions in the vote on the minimum wage. Please do Government’s action in introducing the minimum wage. not leave out the separatists in Scotland, who I think It made a massive difference to their lifestyle. were washing their hair that night. Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for drawing intervention, which reminds me of a story that my the attention of the House to the voting record of other predecessor as MP for Leeds West told me. He saw a job Members of Parliament on that night. advert in our constituency for a security guard back in Thanks to Labour Members of Parliament and a the mid-1990s that said, “Pay, 90p an hour. Uniform Labour Government, for the first time in history, in provided. Bring your own dog.” Those were the sort of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, British jobs that existed back then, but members of this workers had a legal floor below which their hourly pay Government opposed the national minimum wage could not fall. Slowly but surely during the following legislation. I look forward to hearing what the Secretary years the rate rose. It was attacked every step of the way of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has to say by many Government Members and, in 2003, when the later, but people will be entitled to ask him where he was Labour Government announced a 16% increase in the when we abolished the scandal of jobs paying less than minimum wage over two years, the right hon. Member £1 an hour and when British workers won the right to for Twickenham attacked the policy directly, saying that be paid a decent minimum wage. it would set a dangerous precedent. The result of the minimum wage was to boost the Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Notwithstanding wages of nearly 2 million low- paid workers, two thirds the Secretary of State’s reservations about the minimum of whom were women. It helped to lift 1 million children wage, what does my hon. Friend think about the reservations out of poverty and every authoritative economic study of ordinary working people about the Government’s concluded that it brought no negative employment effects, plan to give 100% bonuses to bankers at the Royal Bank despite the warnings of Government Members. No of Scotland? Will that be well received? wonder that a survey of academic policy experts conducted by the Institute for Government judged the national Rachel Reeves: Many people earning £6.31 an hour minimum wage to be the greatest policy success of the will be shocked and outraged to find out that bankers past 30 years. It is now a policy supported by the CBI this year will get bonuses worth more than they earn, and the TUC, whose nominees work together on the but they will be even more shocked to find out that they Low Pay Commission. It is seen by the British people as are the ones who are paying for those bonuses. a vital British institution, underpinning basic rights and decency in the way our economy works. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I am suspicious about a tomato company that is expanding Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab) rose— in my constituency. It appears to be replacing Stockton workers with people from overseas and paying them the Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab) rose— minimum wage. I am told that those foreign workers are charged accommodation costs, so reducing the value of Rachel Reeves: I give way to my hon. Friend the that wage. The company will not answer my letters. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). Does my hon. Friend understand my suspicions? Susan Elan Jones: When Members are a little shy, they should have a little encouragement from the rest of Rachel Reeves: I will come to that point shortly us. I worry that some Government Members are a little because the number of firms that are getting out of shy. They are not usually frightened of defending their paying the minimum wage is incredibly worrying. We party in government. Would they like to do so now, and suggest increasing the fine to £50,000 for not paying the will my hon. Friend allow them to do so? minimum wage, but there is no point in having such a fine if the legislation is not enforced. Rachel Reeves: I have already made the offer to the Secretary of State, but we have not yet heard from him. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Today’s All Members are welcome to make interventions, but in Glasgow Herald reports that the fine will go up to the meantime I will take an intervention from my right £20,000 from where it is today. Surely, that is not nearly hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). 915 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 916

Mr Hanson: I confess that I was here when we voted VAT increase means that people are worse off, as do the for the minimum wage. I did vote for it, having stayed tax credit changes. Overall, when all those things are up most of the night, because I was kept up by the added up, people are worse off, not better off. I hope Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members who ensured that he will stay a little longer than his colleague to hear that we did have to support that with our votes. a bit more of the debate. Does my hon. Friend accept that the additional spending We know that we need to build on the success of the power given to many millions of people, including in national minimum wage, because today we face a new my constituency, which was spent locally, helped to challenge: getting our economy working for working boost jobs in retail, on the high street and in locally people and tackling the worst excesses of insecurity and produced goods? exploitation in our labour market.

Rachel Reeves: I congratulate my right hon. Friend Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Further to the on his work in helping to put the national minimum point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree wage on to the statute book. He is absolutely right to (Mr Newmark), does the hon. Lady not accept that the suggest that one of the contributions to the cost of pressure on living standards is a function not just of living crisis that we see today is that the national minimum wages, but of the costs that average families face? Will wage has not kept pace with the increase in prices she thank the Government, as I do, for having frozen during the last few years. The introduction of the minimum council tax during the period we have been in office, wage did indeed help to boost the spending power of unlike her party, which doubled it during its period in workers. office?

Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con) rose— Rachel Reeves: If the hon. Gentleman looks at what has happened to living standards, he will see that the Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con) rose— average worker is £1,600 worse off than they were in 2010. I am surprised that he applauds what the Government Rachel Reeves: I am so shocked. We have two are doing—I certainly do not—because workers in his interventions from Government Members. I will happily constituency are worse off, not better off, after three give way to not one, but two Government Members. and a half years of Conservative government.

Julian Smith: As a fellow Yorkshire Member, I thank John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Does the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. Will she my hon. Friend agree that Government Members, after welcome this week’s announcement on inflation at 2%, giving up attacking us on the minimum wage, have now and will she accept that this, as well as the Government’s moved on to more sinister things, such as workers’ phenomenal job creation results, are a key part of the right, zero-hours contracts and a vast increase in the package of getting people better paid in this country? number of people in part-time employment, to mask the fact that people are so much worse off than they Rachel Reeves: For 41 of the 42 months that the ever have been? The outlook for those people now is Prime Minister has been in office, prices have risen at a something we never saw until the Government came to faster rate than wages, and that continues to be the case. power. The only month that it was not the case was in April last year, when bank bonuses were deferred from March to Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that April to take advantage of the cuts in the top rate of tax intervention. The reality is that under this Government from 50p to 45p. [Interruption.] That is the only month we have seen record numbers of workers on zero-hours in which prices grew at a slower rate than wages, not for contracts, record numbers of people who want to work ordinary workers, but the privileged few who the hon. full time having to work part time, and wages failing to Gentleman’s party always supports. keep up with prices. The average worker is now £1,600 a year worse off and the number of people being paid less Mr Newmark: Will the hon. Lady—[Interruption.] than the living wage is up from 3.6 million in 2010 to more than 5 million today. The value of the minimum Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. wage has fallen by 5% over the past three and a half The Chair has noted that the hon. Member for Skipton years. For a full-time worker that means a real-terms and Ripon (Julian Smith) has departed immediately pay cut of £13 a week. and too soon. Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): Is my hon. Mr Newmark: I fear that the hon. Lady’s answer Friend as surprised as I am that Government Members might have frightened my colleague away. I promise that are not supporting good employers? There are good I will not run away after she answers me. Will she at employers in my constituency who are arguing very least acknowledge that this Government, by raising to clearly that undercutting the minimum wage is affecting £10,000 the level at which tax hits, thereby taking 2.7 million their business. They want good employers, not bad people out of taxation altogether, have indeed helped ones. the low-paid? Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that Rachel Reeves: Work by the Institute for Fiscal Studies intervention. We saw similar things when Labour introduced has shown that, taking account of all the changes to the national minimum wage in the first place, because in taxes, tax credits and benefits since the Government many cases those who benefitted were the good employers came into office, the average worker is now £850 worse who wanted to pay their workers a decent wage and off. The hon. Gentleman points to one thing, but the who were being undercut by the cowboys. 917 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 918

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the nice if they could talk about its impact on their Opposition on bringing this matter before the House constituencies. However, I think we may have to wait for for consideration—we all have an interest in it. Does the another occasion. hon. Lady share my concern about those in long-term We have a Government who opposed the national apprenticeships who are not receiving the minimum minimum wage when it was introduced and who are not wage? That has been brought to my attention on a enforcing the legislation properly today. Thanks to an number of occasions. They are glad to have the experience investigation by the independent Centre for London, we and a vocation at the end of it, but in my opinion they know that as many as 300,000 workers are being paid also deserve the minimum wage, which many of them less than the minimum wage. We have reports of workers do not receive. having the costs of uniforms, accommodation, transport or training illegally deducted from their pay packets. We Rachel Reeves: There is an apprentice rate for the have shocking accounts of working conditions for some minimum wage, which is important, but we need to people in sectors such as elderly care which hurt not ensure that more people are doing good-quality only employees but vulnerable people who need a reliable apprenticeships so that at the end of them they can get and good-quality service from people who are paid a jobs not only at the minimum wage, but above it. My decent wage. There are stories of legal loopholes being worry is that too many of the current apprenticeships used to bring in migrant workers who are, as my hon. do not offer the decent training that will enable people Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) to get a good-quality job. said, forced to work at exploitative rates of pay that also undercut and undermine the pay and conditions of all Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): My hon. workers. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does she agree Despite that, the number of enforcement cases opened that while it was a brave Labour Government who or registered has fallen in every year of this Tory-led brought in the national minimum wage, they were working Government, and it is now at less than half the level it in conjunction with the unions, which were pivotal to was in the last year of the Labour Government. Since bringing in the policy? It will be the unions, working this Government came into office, just two prosecutions together with the Labour Government in 2015, that will have been brought for non-payment of the minimum introduce a living wage. wage. They have repeatedly said that they will name and shame firms that are flouting the legislation, but they have not named a single one. Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Trade unions, including the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, of which Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): he is a member, did a huge amount of campaigning for My hon. Friend is making a very powerful speech. Does the introduction of the minimum wage and campaign she agree that perhaps one of the reasons the national today to ensure that more people are paid a living wage. minimum wage has not been enforced is that Government I will say a little more about what we are willing do in Members are not 100% committed to it? For example, government to ensure that more people are paid a living the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea wage above the national minimum. Leadsom) has called for businesses with three employees or fewer to be exempt from the national minimum wage, as well as from regulations on maternity and paternity Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): The rights. freeze in council tax, which was mentioned earlier, looks good on the surface, but councils are not being Rachel Reeves: Not only are Government Members compensated for it, and they are stacking up a problem not 100% behind the national minimum wage; they for two or three years down the road, when there will be cannot even bring themselves to say “national minimum massive cuts to services. wage”.

Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): The Government are Many councils, including mine in Leeds and his in asking the Low Pay Commission to review the minimum Coventry, have been hard hit by the cuts to the local wage with a view to increasing it. Does the hon. Lady authority grant, which are affecting some of the services welcome that—yes or no? that the most vulnerable people rely on. Rachel Reeves: The hon. Gentleman is a little behind Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Can we get to the the curve. That is what the Low Pay Commission does: nuts and bolts of policy? Will the hon. Lady give the that is what we set it up to do. House an assurance that policies such as the petrol duty The failure to enforce the legislation properly has freeze and the council tax freeze—[Interruption] Iam contributed to a worrying rise in in-work poverty. It sorry, but the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) used to be thought that if someone got a job, put in the is chuntering so much that it is hard to hear him—would hours and put in the effort, they would be paid enough be continued under a Labour Government were they to to keep them and their family out of poverty and have a be elected? decent standard of living—that was the deal. But today, for the first time since records began, the majority of Rachel Reeves: I suggest that Government Members people in poverty are in work and the majority of look at what we are debating: the national minimum children in poverty are brought up in working households. wage. I know they do not want to talk about it, because It is just not good enough that in today’s Britain an they did not support it in the first place, but it would be honest day’s work does not bring in a decent day’s pay. 919 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 920

Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Does my and the increase in tuition fees, which the Liberal Democrats, hon. Friend agree that perhaps the best way to make of course, promised would not happen. It is absolutely savings in the welfare bill would be to make sure that wrong and we must fight it. people are not just in work, but in well-paid work, so that they would not have to depend on welfare? Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more with my hon. Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. With almost 1 million young people out of Friend. If more people were paid a living wage, if the work—250,000 of them for more than a year—hitting minimum wage were enforced and if more people who them further by saying that they should not be entitled want to work full time were doing so rather than to a minimum wage is doubly unfair, cruel and callous. working part time, all those things would help bring down the rising costs of social security. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Is not a A Britain where people who are putting in the effort further point that there are many threats to wages in and the hours still cannot make ends meet cannot be rural communities in particular—where the cost of right and it is not fair. A Britain where parents who living is higher—not least as a result of this Government’s want to spend more time with their family and children shameful decision to abolish the Agricultural Wages but can hardly see them because they have to take on a Board, which protected the pay of many low-paid people? second job is not right and it is not fair. A Britain where a young worker who wants to go to evening classes to improve their prospects but cannot because they have to Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that take on an extra shift in the evening just to make ends intervention and for his work on these issues as a meet is not right and it is not fair. A Britain where a shadow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister. woman cleaning the offices of well-paid executives before Labour Members know that a strengthened minimum they arrive in the morning and who is still at work in the wage and practical policies to promote the living wage evening serving on the supermarket tills is not right and are essential to building a recovery that works for it is not fair. working people and to securing rising standards of This is not just an injustice to those families. It is, as living for the future. That means stronger penalties and my hon. Friend has said, imposing cost on the rest of us effective enforcement against rogue employers who flout as well, because lower pay means more money spent on the minimum wage. It means plans to restore the value tax credits and housing benefit. The bills of in-work of the minimum wage, which has been lost over the past poverty are rising faster than this Government can cut three and a half years. It means the Government doing people’s entitlements. It also means less tax and national their bit to support the campaign for a living wage by insurance going into the Government’s coffers. If we setting an example with their own employees and contracts, want to get the costs of social security under control as Labour councils are doing up and down this country, and if we want to put our public finances on a sustainable and it means the Government sharing the savings to the footing, we need to get our economy working for working Treasury with employers who commit to paying the people, so that we can all earn our way out of the cost of living wage, as we will do with our Make Work Pay living crisis that this Government have created. contracts. What solutions do Government Members have to The national minimum wage is one of Labour’s proudest offer? As my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and achievements. It was opposed by the Tories every step Heston (Seema Malhotra) has indicated, the hon. Members of the way, while their coalition partners tried to water for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Wellingborough it down and frustrate its purpose, and the current (Mr Bone), for Cities of London and Westminster Business Secretary sat on his hands. That is why we (Mark Field), for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), for Clacton cannot trust the Tories or their Liberal Democrat supporters (Mr Carswell) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) sponsored to protect the minimum wage, why we cannot trust the a Bill that would have enabled employees to agree with Tories to enforce or strengthen it, and why we cannot their employers that they should not be paid the minimum trust them to deal with the cost of living crisis. wage. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) has said that people working for It therefore again falls to Labour to protect and businesses with three employees or fewer should not strengthen the national minimum wage by increasing have to be paid the minimum wage. The hon. Member fines for those who exploit workers; investigating rogue for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) has said that 16 to employers and enforcing the law properly; restoring the 21-year-olds should not have to be paid a minimum value of the national minimum wage and catching up wage. The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has the lost ground of the past three years; and encouraging said that disabled workers should not have to be paid employers who can do so to go further and to pay the the minimum wage. Shame on them and shame on the living wage. Conservative party. It is the same old story from the I suspect that when the Secretary of State gets to his same old nasty Tories. Their only answer to our economic feet, he will tell us how he now supports the minimum problems is to cut taxes for the richest and cut pay for wage and wants it to be increased and to be enforced the poorest. better. If that is his way of apologising for his past sins, so be it, but I must warn him and his Government that Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The push to we will be watching. Working people who are struggling stop a minimum wage for 16 to 21-year-olds is appalling to earn a living and to survive the cost of living crisis at a time when the Government have made life so need more than warm words and liberal promises; they difficult for that group of people in our society through need action, and only a Labour Government will deliver their changes to the education maintenance allowance that. 921 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 922

4.46 pm Having said that, I attempted to be constructive about the motion, but one blindingly obvious point is The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that the centrepiece of the national minimum wage Skills (Vince Cable): I beg to move an amendment, to legislation—the establishment of a non-partisan, non- leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and political Low Pay Commission—did not even merit a add: mention. The shadow Secretary of State referred to it “notes that since 2010, the Government has increased the National only in response to an intervention. That is rather Minimum Wage each year, despite the worst recession in living important, because it suggests one of two things. The memory, to protect the income of the low paid and increase their wages relative to average earnings, and is cutting taxes for the low first possibility is that Labour Members do not understand paid to boost take home pay by £705 a year, taking 2.7 million out how their own system works. Indeed, I heard a Labour of income tax altogether; welcomes increased employment under Member cry out earlier, “Why don’t you make it increase this Government, which is at its highest ever level; notes that the the minimum wage?”, so there are clearly people who Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has asked do not understand the mechanism. The second possibility the Low Pay Commission for an assessment of how it might is that Labour Members do not respect the basis of the achieve a higher National Minimum Wage in the future without system, which is independent advice from a non-partisan damaging employment; further notes that the Government has body. That advice has been followed consistently by maintained a central enforcement body that covers all areas of the UK and ensures a consistent approach and high quality successive Secretaries of State, including my Labour service; and further notes that the Government is quadrupling predecessors. That is the strength of the system and that fines for employers in breach of paying the National Minimum is why there is political consensus behind it. Wage and has already made it easier to name and shame employers who flout the rules.”. Several hon. Members rose— I am delighted to have the opportunity to move the Government amendment. Before I get down to the Vince Cable: I will just deal with the politics of this detailed substance of the motion, I want to say that this matter before I take interventions. debate gives us the opportunity to discuss in more detail The hon. Member for Leeds West made a great deal the regulations that, following my announcement before of the fact that, as she put it, the Conservatives opposed Christmas, I have laid today to increase penalties for the national minimum wage and many Liberal Democrats non-compliance with the minimum wage by a factor of opposed it. She speaks with all the self-confidence of four. I also want to reinforce my earlier commitment somebody who was not here at the time. that we will not merely do that but will proceed to introduce primary legislation to enable fines to be applied Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): You were and you per worker, rather than per company, which will make didn’t vote. them a great deal more forceful. Vince Cable: I did not particularly wish to raise this, Mr Donohoe: Will the Secretary of State give way? but I am being asked personally to explain why I did not vote. It had a lot to do with the fact that my late wife Vince Cable: I will take an intervention later. was terminally ill at the time and I was in the Royal The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Marsden hospital. That is why my voting record at the Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), misadvised one of her time was poor on that and other issues. Back Benchers, the hon. Member for Westminster As it happens, my party supported the national minimum North (Ms Buck), who quite rightly intervened, in wage; nobody opposed it. I became the party’s spokesman relation to care workers, about there being no payment shortly after the vote and I made it absolutely clear between jobs for social workers carrying out domiciliary throughout that Parliament that we supported the principle care. That is actually an abuse of the minimum wage of the national minimum wage. There was never any legislation. It has now been recognised as an abuse, and question about that. colleagues in the Department of Health, as well as my Perfectly legitimate issues were raised about why there Department and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, was no regional variation. There is a proper debate to are making efforts to ensure that the regulations are be had about whether there should be a regional or a properly enforced. national minimum wage. As it happens, I endorsed the principle of the national minimum wage. However, Mr Donohoe: Will the Secretary of State give way? there is a perfectly respectable argument for regional variation. As I understand it, the Labour party now Vince Cable: Let me carry on for a few minutes. The promotes the living wage, at the heart of which is the hon. Gentleman knows that I always take interventions. idea that there should be regional differentials, with Let me just build an argument and then I will allow him people in London being paid more and people in the to respond. west country or the north of England being paid relatively Let me start with the very basics. It is a little difficult less. There is an argument for that. Why criticise people to do so in the face of the relentless tribalism that we who have put forward that idea in good faith? have just heard, but I would say at the outset that the As for the Conservatives, although I do not always introduction of the national minimum wage was a real speak in their defence, I think that they should get achievement of the previous Government. There were credit for accepting that there is a good system that not many achievements, but two will stand the test of works and for deciding to support it. That is creditable. time: the establishment of the independent Bank of Although I and my party have supported the national England and the establishment of the national minimum minimum wage, there is a perfectly respectable intellectual wage. [Interruption.] Indeed, there were others, but and moral argument for not having a minimum wage. those were the two main ones in the economic field. Countries that do not have a minimum wage include 923 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 924

[Vince Cable] Jim Sheridan: I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. The national minimum wage is exactly what Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Austria. Those it says on the tin: a minimum wage. Does he accept the countries are all in the social democratic tradition, but overwhelming evidence that union-organised work forces have felt that it is too problematic. Germany, which has are paid more and have better conditions than non-union- had either social democratic or national unity Governments organised workplaces? for most of the post-war period, has adopted a national minimum wage only in the last few weeks. In those Vince Cable: In general, that is the case. However, my countries, where there are civilised values and a sense of experience, from talking regularly to trade unions and solidarity, the costs and benefits of the minimum wage employers, is that most of our trade unions, certainly in have been debated properly. Why should we criticise the private sector, are extremely pragmatic and flexible people in this country who wanted to have such a on wages—indeed, that is one of the reasons why we debate, but who have now come to a consensus that it is have had relatively low unemployment. They deserve a good system and that we should make it work? some credit for that.

Seema Malhotra: Is the Secretary of State saying that Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I thank the Government Members and Conservative Members in right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very particular support the national minimum wage for all generous. At whatever level the fines are set, will he look businesses in all circumstances? at the possibility of reinvesting the money they raise directly into enforcement, so that the enforcement keeps Vince Cable: Yes, it is now the law. Of course we on going to the point where, hopefully, we do not have support enforcement of the law. I do not understand the to fine anybody, because nobody is breaching the rules? question.

Mr Donohoe: Will the Secretary of State tell us why Vince Cable: In line with the commitment to enforcement, he came to the conclusion that the fine should go from I think we have produced more resources for that. My £5,000 to £20,000, rather than the £50,000 that would hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, deter all those gangsters out there who are not paying who will be summating, may want to say a little more the minimum wage? about that, but we recognise that the enforcement authorities need resources to do their job. Vince Cable: The rise to £20,000 is a fourfold increase. However, the big difference is in applying that fine per Charlie Elphicke: I thank my right hon. Friend for worker rather than per company. That is a considerable giving way. As a Conservative Member of Parliament escalation of the penalties. I hope that we will have the representing a constituency with a lot of social deprivation, support of Opposition Members in voting that through. I support the national minimum wage and the work of the Low Pay Commission, which is really important. In John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Is response to my intervention, the shadow Secretary of not the difference between this country and the countries State dismissed the Low Pay Commission and talked cited by the right hon. Gentleman that they still have about restoring the value of the minimum wage. Does vibrant trade union rights and are not condemned my right hon. Friend know what exactly restoring the annually by the International Labour Organisation, as value of the minimum wage means and how much that this country is, for undermining trade union rights? would cost?

Vince Cable: Those countries have had a variety of Vince Cable: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support Governments, both left-wing and right-wing. I was and I know that it is shared among his colleagues. This simply making the point that it is possible to have a is a historical issue: it has now been laid to rest. I will perfectly viable system without a national minimum talk a little more about the mandate of the Low Pay wage. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that in practice Commission and the fact that successive Secretaries of what is needed is either a strong system of trade union State, including me, have respected its judgment, which rights or a national minimum wage. We have now all is non-political, non-partisan and represents both the accepted that the national minimum wage is the best union and employer standpoint. system. I think all the minority parties accept that, too. Let me talk about the wider economic consequences. Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Secretary of State The shadow Secretary of State talked with a real sense for giving way. Does he accept that enforcement, as well of righteous indignation about things that are, frankly, as the fine, is important? Currently, the national minimum blindingly obvious. We have had a massive financial wage is enforced only by Her Majesty’s Revenue and crisis, the biggest in our history—certainly in modern Customs. Will he give serious consideration to supporting times. As a result, the country is poorer. That is a matter giving local councils the power, as they now have on of fact. It is not a polemical point: the country is trading standards, to enforce the minimum wage locally? poorer, and that has been translated into lower earnings. That is simple economic reality and nobody is disputing Vince Cable: As the right hon. Gentleman says, the that. primary authority is HMRC, but it works with other In the wake of the economic crisis in 2008-09, we now agencies to enforce the national minimum wage. There know that British GDP fell by 7.5%. That was more are some important cases where HMRC has worked than after the great crash in 1929 and worse than in any with local authorities—I think with Blackpool council other western country. I am not going into the business and others—to enforce it in areas where we have sensed of who did what when; I am just recording a matter of there is a systematic weakness. fact. Recession inevitably followed the financial disaster 925 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 926 and real earnings have been affected. The shadow Secretary Government. We have therefore considerably reduced of State is right on simple matters of fact: real earnings the impact of the squeeze on real incomes by using tax fell by 7% and the minimum wage fell by 5%. That is a policy. matter of fact. What I find so very difficult to understand The second highly relevant issue is the level of is that the Opposition Front Benchers—it is not just unemployment. After the great crash in 1929, her; her colleagues are the same—have seen the greatest unemployment rose to 20%. In the recent financial economic disaster in modern economic history and crisis, countries less affected than the UK have had apparently not noticed it, and they have not taken any considerably higher unemployment—I am talking about account of the inevitable economic consequences. What France and Sweden, among others. We reached a peak matters is that the Government of the day seek to of 8.5%; it has now gone down to 7% and is falling. We mitigate those effects. have record numbers of people in work, while the number of jobs has increased by 1.3 million, in the wake Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Does of this enormous economic crisis. Now, why has that the Secretary of State accept that while he has been in happened? It has happened because millions of individual office, the real-terms value of the adult national minimum workers, realising that there is a choice to be made wage has declined by 50p an hour since May 2010? It is between jobs and pay, have wisely decided that it is his responsibility to review the remit of the Low Pay much more important to keep the employment. Commission. Why is he acting so slowly on this, given The Low Pay Commission, speaking for the country that 28% of part-time workers in his constituency are as a whole, rather than for individuals, has reinforced earning less than the living wage? Does that not show that assessment. In its 2012 report, it explained its the failure he is presiding over on poverty pay across the analysis in the following terms—let us remember this is whole country? not the Government, but an independent commission representing unions, employers and independent assessors. Vince Cable: I do not know about the numbers, but It said its aim was a minimum wage that helped certainly the minimum wage, in real terms, has declined “as many low-paid workers as possible without any significant by 5%, as a result of my predecessor on two occasions adverse impact on employment or the economy.” and me on three occasions following the advice of the That became the mandate—the remit—that I have used, Low Pay Commission. and it is virtually identical to the remit used by my Labour predecessor. I simply ask Labour Members Alex Cunningham: The RBS bankers and others in what they object to in that remit. Do they seriously the City who led us into this terrible economic situation think that the Low Pay Commission and the Secretary do a lot better than the national minimum wage, so does of State should ignore the state of the economy or the the Secretary of State think they should get bonuses of level of employment? What do they think is fundamentally more than 100% of their salaries? wrong with the remit?

Vince Cable: I think hon. Members have had a chance Gavin Shuker: From the tone of the Secretary of to debate that already. I am a great advocate of the new State’s remarks, it is clear that, following the banking model developed by Handelsbanken of relationship crisis of 2008, this is a deep issue that confronts us as a banking and no bonuses—that is what we ought to nation. He is right in his analysis, and many workers have—but I suspect that even their branch managers are have chosen not to push for pay rises in the light of that paid above the minimum wage. situation. The challenge facing us, however, is surely one that requires a political response. I disagree slightly with his characterisation of this Government’s policy. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does What it has resulted in has been clearly demonstrated in my right hon. Friend share the incredulity of Government 41 of the last 42 months, with people being able to buy Members that for all the talk of bankers not having less with what they are being paid. If he is saying there been affected, not one person has condemned the fact will be no change, then Opposition Members will continue that trade union leaders have been getting double-digit to call out for that change. pay rises in the same period? Vince Cable: I keep hearing the call from Opposition Vince Cable: I suspect that that is also true, but I am Members for a political intervention. Are the hon. trying to get away from the tribal debate that the Gentleman and his colleagues saying that this system—a shadow Secretary of State was so keen to launch. very good system that his Government established, To return to the thread of the argument, we have had based on the Low Pay Commission analysis—should be a major shock, and it has reduced real earnings and the torn up and a political settlement imposed? Is he suggesting real minimum wage. I fully acknowledge that; it is a that the remit, which takes account of the impact of the matter of fact. The question is: what is being done to minimum wage on employment, should be disregarded? mitigate the effects? Two major changes have taken Is that the argument? place. First, the Government have recognised that earnings are not the same as take-home pay and disposable Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): income, and we have therefore concentrated our tax Let me give the Secretary of State an example. The Low policy on lifting low earners out of tax. As a result, Pay Commission recommended against amending section 2.7 million low earners now pay no income tax. Those 31(1)(b) of the minimum wage regulations, which allowed working 28 hours a week on the minimum wage pay no employers to pay hospitality workers out of their tips. income tax, while those on 35 hours pay only one third The last Government took the courageous step of changing of the income tax they paid at the beginning of this that provision and preventing that from happening. 927 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 928

[Michael Connarty] Vince Cable: I must tell the hon. Gentleman that it is an argument to which the trade unions on the Low Pay That is a good example of where politics looks to the Commission fully subscribe. This is the first time that I good of the individual and does not play to what I have heard Members seriously question the competence believe are the prejudices and fears of people in the Low of the Low Pay Commission and challenge the whole Pay Commission. Is it not also true that if the minimum principle of its remit. I am appalled and alarmed that wage were raised—I have seen many cases of this—the they should want to tear up and politicise a basically bill for tax credits would go down and the Government good system which has worked well under the last would probably be better off in terms of public sector Government and under this one, in different circumstances. expenditure? That really is very dangerous.

Alec Shelbrooke: What I find strange—I am sure that Vince Cable: On the last point, the hon. Gentleman my right hon. Friend agrees with me—is that the subject may well be right, although I have seen an analysis of the living wage keeps popping up on the Opposition suggesting that, because of the effect on corporate Benches. Today’s debate is about the minimum wage, taxation, which offsets those gains, he is not. However, and the Labour motion does not call for the Low Pay on the more substantive point about politicians intervening Commission even to consider the issue of the living to override the Low Pay Commission, I believe that we wage. should not be dogmatic about it. In the overriding majority of cases, it behoves the Secretary of State to Vince Cable: Indeed. Admittedly the issue of the listen carefully to the Low Pay Commission and it living wage is now part of the public debate, and of would be unusual to override it. He cites one case, and I course I believe that if employers are profitable they have actually overridden the Low Pay Commission—on should adopt it—particularly if they are taking advantage the apprenticeship wage, which I thought was excessively of their work forces—but we must be clear about the low, giving the wrong signal to young people and others fact that making the living wage mandatory, either who wanted to do apprenticeships. I made a decision on directly or indirectly, would have enormous implications that specific issue to intervene and disregard the advice for jobs. of the Low Pay Commission. If that became a habit, however, and if its advice were overridden on a major Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ issue of pay policy, the minimum wage structure would Co-op): Will the Secretary of State give way? crumble from being politicised in that way. Vince Cable: I will give way once more. Mr Donohoe: To ask a simple question, what is the Mark Lazarowicz: The fact is that millions of workers minimum wage for apprenticeships? are now enjoying the living wage because of the actions of local authorities—the vast majority of them Labour- Vince Cable: I think it is £2.68, and it was going to be controlled—and progressive employers. Rather than just frozen at £2.65. [Interruption.] It is a very small increase, saying that the living wage is a good idea, should not but there was an issue of principle involved, which is the Government encourage employers to adopt the why I intervened to change it. living wage through specific measures, such as those Let me proceed on the issue of the mandate. The Low suggested by Labour in the motion and in our policies Pay Commission has consistently regarded jobs as an generally? important objective of policy—rightly, and we must respect that judgment because it is based on serious Vince Cable: I have noticed the word “encourage” analysis. Let me quote a good study carried out by the before. Ministers are being told that they should encourage Resolution Foundation, and I believe the National Institute employers to pay the living wage. I have thought about of Economic and Social Research was involved, too. It that: what does it actually mean? It is motherhood and analysed the effects of a general increase to the living apple pie on one level, but if we take it seriously, what wage level, which Labour Members would like to see does it mean? happen. If I encounter a company that is perfectly profitable, particularly if it seems to be taking advantage of its The analysis suggests that if other things were equal work force, of course I will urge it to pay the living and if all low pay were increased to the level of the wage, but many companies are on the brink of bankruptcy. living wage, there would be a net loss of 160,000 jobs. Would Members urge them to increase their pay levels Worse than that, there would be a loss of 300,000 jobs substantially in those circumstances? That would be among the unskilled and among young workers, because extremely irresponsible. These bland phrases, although massive substitution would take place. That does not they may be superficially attractive, are potentially very mean that the living wage is a bad idea as a voluntary dangerous. principle, but it does spell out very brutally what would happen if Governments ignored the Low Pay Commission Several hon. Members rose— and took a cavalier view of the impact of the minimum wage on jobs. Vince Cable: I have given way a number of times, and I should now like to finish what I have to say. Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Is that not Along with the element of its remit that relates to the precisely the argument that was used by those who impact on employment, one of the key concepts in opposed the introduction of the national minimum the work of the Low Pay Commission is what it calls the wage in the first place? Is this not just a repetition of “bite”. That terrible bit of jargon refers to the relationship that flawed argument? between the minimum wage and the median. It may be 929 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 930 technical, but it is very important, because the closer questioning that and saying, “Why don’t you change the the minimum wage gets to the median, the more likely it way we look at it?” I have done that, while respecting its is that a big increase will displace employment. When independence. I have said the Government want a faster the minimum wage was first introduced in 1999, it was increase in the minimum wage, reflecting the fact we about 46% of the median; now it is 53%, and there have now have a real recovery, and in order to achieve that been successive increases. the LPC should look at a wider range of factors governing low pay. They include the fact that at the national Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) economy level, the Governor of the Bank of England (SNP): The median wage is falling. has now said that if unemployment falls to 7%, he would want there to be some tightening of monetary Vince Cable: It did fall slightly last year—just slightly. policy, as the environment will have changed. We would However, the minimum wage is now significantly above want to see what impact that will have on the cost of that level. employment, which has been cushioned by the Chancellor’s That is a major issue for young workers and for decision to bring in the employment allowance—£2,000 apprenticeships. For young workers, particularly those for the first employee—as it significantly changes the aged 16 and 17, the so-called bite is close to 80%, which cost of employment. We also need to look at the impact means that any significant increase in the minimum it would have on the Government, because there is an wage would have the unfortunate effect of displacing interaction with tax credits, tax yields and corporate most of them from the labour force. That is a factor that taxation. There is the impact on take-home pay, too, has weighed very heavily with the Low Pay Commission and therefore we have to factor in our tax policy. when it has made its recommendations. I have therefore asked the LPC to look at this problem Grahame M. Morris: Will the Secretary of State give in a much more holistic way. I do not know what it will way? I will be very brief. conclude, and I will be respectful of its independent advice, but that is the way we are approaching this and Vince Cable: I will be indulgent. we do now recognise that in a recovering economy low-paid workers should derive benefits, and that is Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful to the Secretary of how we are approaching this matter. State. He is being very generous, and I appreciate the way in which he has engaged with interventions. May I Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Will just put one thought in his mind? A number of very the right hon. Gentleman give way? profitable companies are offering their workers—many of them young workers—zero-hours or four-hours Vince Cable: I have taken several interventions already. contracts, which have a terrible effect on a person’s Finally, let me say a few more words about enforcement. ability not just to live but to exist. Clearly the minimum wage is only effective if it is Vince Cable: I have already said in the House on properly enforced and has the force of law. It is important several occasions that the Government are now engaged not just for its own sake but to give workers confidence in a public conversation about how we deal with zero-hours that if they complain, those complaints will be followed contract abuses. I think the hon. Gentleman has to be through. There are several levels as enforcement is a careful as the research that has been carried out suggests complicated process. First, it is a problem of securing that very large numbers of people on zero-hours contracts arrears and then imposing fines. We then have a name like that model, but we must deal with the abuses, of and shame system, and ultimately there is prosecution course. in court, but that has hardly been used either under the last Government or this one because it requires a Mr MacNeil rose— demonstration of proof of intent, which is very difficult to demonstrate. Vince Cable: It would be remiss of me not to take at Let me explain how these various levels are now least one intervention from the Scottish nationalists, so operating. In the last year, arrears of about £4 million I will do so. were paid, compared with an average of about £3 million over recent years. About 26,000 workers benefited from Mr MacNeil: May I put in the right hon. Gentleman’s that. Fines are crucial, because under the last Government mind the words of Paul Krugman earlier this week? He and this one, that is where the main enforcement action spoke about unemployment insurance and how when has been taken. Last year 700 enforcement cases were money is in the hands of the poorest in society, that taken to the level of fines. The amount paid was seven creates demand, which in turn creates jobs. The corollary times as much as was paid under the last year of the of that is that the higher the minimum wage, the more Labour Government. One can argue about this from money is put in people’s pockets and the more it circulates, one year to another, and these things fluctuate, but any and we return to a system, as in the 1950s, when suggestion that the regime has become easier is simply inequality is reduced, rather than the situation now, not true. when inequality is equivalent to what it was in the 1920s. Michael Connarty rose— Vince Cable: Of course an increase in wages among other things increases demand, and that is one factor Vince Cable: I am going to proceed to the end of my that has to be taken into account. That leads me on to speech. the next point I want to make, which is how this year I We are now in the process of considerably increasing have approached the issue of the mandate of the Low the penalties, both in terms of raising the fine from Pay Commission. Opposition Members have been £5,000 to £20,000, subject to the House approving the 931 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 932

[Vince Cable] I commend the next stage of the ambition, which is to move towards a living wage. I pay tribute to Citizens legislation, and applying it per worker rather than per UK and, in particular, to London Citizens, which have firm, which is, of course, much more draconian. been at the forefront of introducing the living wage The new guidelines for the naming and shaming since 2005—so much so that 214 London employers process were issued to HMRC in October. There is also and 12 London councils have now signed up to pay it. the question of due process. Companies that are about Many opportunities are open to the Government to to be named and shamed can appeal, and it is estimated urge more employers to pay the living wage: the leverage that that process takes roughly 150 days. I imagine that of procurement; the increased tax receipts for Her a significant number of cases would begin to emerge by Majesty’s Revenue and Customs resulting from more the end of February; we can test that when the issue people being in better-paid jobs; and the practical benefits arises. that businesses that pay the living wage report, such as To summarise, we have a good system, but we want to more corporate resilience and social purpose, reduced strengthen it, and to strengthen enforcement. We also absentee rates, greater loyalty and enhancement of the want to respect the principles of the Low Pay Commission. quality of work. Good businesses know that the living We want to see improvements to the minimum wage, wage is good for their business; this is about the but that needs to be done properly, through the independent interconnection between corporate success, commercial Low Pay Commission. I therefore urge my colleagues to success and social purpose. oppose the motion, and to support the Government’s When we talk about changes to the benefits system, amendment. we must remember that the living wage is one way in which we move families off and out of tax credits, and Several hon. Members rose— shift the responsibility for decent levels of pay from the state—the social security system—to employers. Having Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. rather curtailed my remarks, I wish to finish by saying There will be a five-minute time limit on all Back-Bench that we can follow the example of the best of business, contributions in this debate. That might need to be but we should also remember what the difference means reviewed, but I hope not. to families. The mother whose child—

5.21 pm Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): Having listened closely, as I always do, to the 5.26 pm Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, I Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): The hon. Member for am hard pressed to see how he can recommend voting Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), who opened this debate, is against our motion, which focuses on the enforcement right about one thing: it was a mistake for my party to of the national minimum wage. have opposed the minimum wage. I am glad that we The existence of a national minimum wage is a major support it now. If we are honest about our mistakes, the statement about the kind of country that we are. Beyond Opposition need to be honest about what went on: that the clichés about hard-working families, what does hard it was a mistake to abolish the 10p income tax rate; that work actually involve? Are we prepared to be citizens median real wages stopped rising from 2003; and that and representatives in a country where too many mothers the value of the minimum wage did not decrease from ship their children from one childminder to another, 2010 but from 2008. All of us have made mistakes in often late at night and very early in the morning, these areas, and the Opposition should have welcomed because they work for employers who do not honour the fact that we have taken 2 million lower earners out their statutory obligation to pay the national minimum of tax altogether. wage? This is about decency, and if the Government are serious about the enforcement and enforceability of the Alec Shelbrooke: Does my hon. Friend agree that it national minimum wage, they must surely acknowledge was also a mistake to put in petrol price rises year after that the proposals in the motion are unexceptional. year—Labour would have added the equivalent of 64p I am proud to have been part of the Government who a gallon by this time—which dig directly into hard-working introduced the national minimum wage, and I hope that people’s pockets? that progressive change has now become irreversible. Over its lifetime, one of its most powerful effects has Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is right; our party has been to start to close the gender pay gap. It stood at a relentless focus on helping the lower paid. We should more than 16% when the national minimum wage was support the minimum wage because we are the party of introduced in 1999; its present level of 9.2% is still aspiration and working people, and increasing the minimum unacceptable. The greatest burden resulting from the wage eliminates the poverty trap, cuts the benefits bill lack of growth in the economy and from the Government’s and encourages more people to get back into work. If tax and benefit changes has been borne by women. we do just one thing, it should be to increase the Women’s employment is also concentrated in poorly minimum wage at least to reflect the increase in inflation paid occupational groups that include care, cleaning over the past few years. and catering. Whatever low pay threshold is used, the I also urge the Government to institute a regional proportion of working women who are low-paid is minimum wage—in addition to the national minimum about twice that of working men on low pay. wage, not as a substitute for it—because of the different The need for enforcement of the national minimum costs of living in different parts of the country. I am wage goes without saying, and the failure to enforce it is talking about the differing costs not just from north to a stain on the stated ambition of the Government. south, but within regions. That has been done in other 933 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 934 countries, such as Canada and the United States, where could be transferred into any consolidated form. Such a individual states can set minimum wage rates above the system could have enormous benefits, such as a federal minimum. We need to consider such an approach simplification of the tax system, greater transparency, seriously. fewer administration costs and it would leave workers with more money in their pockets. It would be costly, Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): My hon. Friend but there would be benefits, such as people spending and I represent constituencies in Essex, where the cost more and being less reliant on the state for welfare of living is higher than it is in other parts of the country. and encouraging people back into work. It would benefit Does he agree that we often see people trapped in a life all low-paid workers, especially those who work just on benefits because it does not pay to work as a result of part time. It should be the long-stated aim of my party the loss in housing benefit owing to higher property to try to introduce this over a number of years. prices? As Conservatives, we are on the side of hard-working people, which is why we capped taxes for 20 million-plus Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend makes an important lower earners. It is right that the Government increased point, and the Conservative party is the workers’ party. the personal allowance, but if the slogan “For hard-working We are here to get people out of dependency and back people” is to mean something, we have not only to into work, and the Labour party is the party of benefits. become the workers’ party but to shout from the roof Although it is important to support a fair wage, we tops our support for the minimum wage. A real-terms must not hurt small businesses—the Secretary of State rise in the national minimum age, a regional top-up and was exactly right on that. We should move towards a raising the national insurance threshold would give us living wage, but there are ways of doing it. The important legitimacy as the party standing up for millions of thing is to put the burden on government to achieve the workers. living wage, not on businesses. I support the minimum wage and the living wage, but we have to make sure that 5.33 pm they are not raised to unsustainable levels. Labour’s solution of offering companies tax breaks if they pay Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I was elected in employees the living wage for a year is said with the best 1997 in a Labour landslide on a manifesto with a of intentions, but it has flaws because it does not fully commitment to introduce the national minimum wage. offset the cost. Many companies would still be unable to It was Keir Hardie who, in 1906, put forward the idea of meet the additional cost of paying their workers an a national minimum wage and it took almost 100 years extra £2 an hour. It would also only last a year, so many to deliver it. Incidentally, he also proposed devolution people would not benefit in the long term. for Wales, Ireland and Scotland and reform of the We should remember that 5 million low earners in House of Lords. Both of those were introduced after Britain are earning less than £10,000 a year. To achieve Labour’s historic win in 1997. the living wage, we need to look at two ends of the When I was a parliamentary candidate in 1996, I equation. First, we could reintroduce the 10p income organised a low-pay survey in my constituency. The tax band. That would halve the income tax bill for those person who came out top—or should I say bottom—was on the minimum wage and significantly reduce the cash a taxi driver who was on £1 an hour. There were other gap between the minimum wage and the living wage. It incidences of women in the care sector who were working would also cost less than raising the personal allowance, 12-hour night shifts for £2.50 an hour. and ensure that people continue to pay into the system while letting them keep more of their own money. Seaside towns such as Rhyl probably benefited more Alternatively, we could continue raising the threshold than anywhere else from the introduction of a national of income tax. Those are the ways to get people up to a minimum wage. A table produced by the House of living wage, and I am happy with either solution. Commons Research Department shows that 29% of those who worked in hotels and restaurants and in the National insurance is the one tax that is still taken entertainment industry were affected by the national directly out of lower earners’ pay packets. A worker minimum wage. In seaside towns, we have a huge number who earns around £7,500, which is around half of what of care homes and the second biggest sector to benefit, the Government say they need to live on, still pays at 15.1%, was the one that undertakes community and national insurance. We should take a small step to help social services activities. Seaside towns have done really the lower paid by increasing the national insurance well under the national minimum wage. threshold, so that it is in line with income tax for employees. The 2020 Tax Commission found that nearly Could any of us in the Chamber today work for £1 an three-quarters of company bosses said that national hour or its equivalent today? Could we have brought up insurance contributions curbed the rates they paid their our families on £2.50 an hour, working throughout staff. the night? I have a great deal of respect for the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on these issues, as A bigger step would be to remove altogether national he is what I would consider to be a compassionate insurance and income tax from the national minimum Conservative, but he said that he was concerned about wage, which would mean that someone working 40 hours unsustainable levels when this is about trying to a week would be earning just £10 a week less than increase pay for people on the lowest rung by 50p or someone who is currently earning the living wage. If we £1 an hour. We never hear about the unsustainable did that, national insurance and income tax could be levels of high pay. For example, two captains of industry merged into just one tax. in the energy companies were given £14 million and Although some argue that we need to maintain national £15 million golden handshakes without a peep from the insurance because of the contributory principle, it effectively Conservative party. It is one law for the rich and one for acts as a double income tax, and a contributory system the poor. 935 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 936

Mr Anderson: My hon. Friend spoke about care every single person who received an increase would be workers’ pay before the 1997 election. I was then a sacked. That was absolute nonsense; an extra 2 million negotiator for care workers in the public sector, who jobs were created. were getting at least £5 an hour—twice as much. We The then Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. introduced this legislation because people were being Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), said: exploited by private companies. Is that not the same “He is right: the adoption of a minimum wage and the social worry that we see today? chapter would gravely inhibit employment opportunities in Wales. There is no question about that.”—[Official Report, 27 February Chris Ruane: I concur entirely. 1997; Vol. 291, c. 461.] When we want to improve the efficiency of businesses, What about when the Conservatives were closing down we say that we must pay those at the top as much as we the steel mills and the coal mines in south Wales? Did can to reward their energy and enterprise and that we that gravely inhibit employment opportunities in Wales? must reduce the pay of those at the bottom because is in He said: their own best interest. There is one rule for the rich and “Adoption of the social chapter and a minimum wage would one for the poor. price tens of thousands out of their jobs along with hundreds of thousands throughout the rest of the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, 17 March 1997; Vol. 292, c. 609.] Katy Clark: Of course, we did not hear from the Secretary of State this afternoon about the fact that He was on the mild side in referring to hundreds of although most people in this country face a cost of thousands; the Conservative party nationally was predicting living crisis and although wages are going down for the 2 million job losses. The Conservatives fought tooth vast majority, those at the top are doing very well, and nail against the legislation, but it was passed. That thank you very much. The salaries of chief executives is the proudest moment of my time here in the House. and those at the top are soaring. At the time of the 1997 In my constituency, we saw no job losses. We saw the election, we heard time and again that we could not number of people in employment go from 23,000 to afford the national minimum wage. Does my hon. Friend 30,000. The St Asaph business park, which was built by agree that the arguments we are hearing now should be the Conservatives in my constituency at the cost of treated in the same way as those arguments were then? £11 million, was empty for seven years. When Labour came to power, it was filled, and there are now more Chris Ruane: Absolutely. The Conservatives were than 2,000 jobs on the park. whingeing when I raised these points, but it is obscene The national minimum wage legislation is fantastic, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer scurries off to but we should not rest on our laurels. We need to move Brussels to protect the multimillion pound bonuses of upwards and onwards to the next frontier, which, as has British bankers at the same time as he is reducing been mentioned by hon. Members, including shadow workers’ rates by £1,600 a year. Ministers, is zero-hours contracts and a living wage. We need to push for better conditions and better payments Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): for workers. That is in the best interests of those workers, Will the hon. Gentleman give way? their families and the economy.

Chris Ruane: No, I will not. 5.41 pm More than 7,000 people have visited me in Parliament Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): The Opposition since I was elected in 1997. Many have been schoolchildren motion mentions that the Liberal Democrats were all and sixth formers. I always allocate a good period of against the minimum wage. I do not think that many time for questions and one of the most common questions, current Liberal Democrat Members were here 14, 15 or “What are you most proud of from your 16 years as an 16 years ago. As a Liberal Democrat, I was always in MP?” I am most proud of this piece of legislation, favour of the minimum wage, and the engineering company which Labour introduced in 1998. It is totemic. It was that I owned always paid well over the minimum wage. an indicator at that historical time of what Labour was If companies want really skilled people to work for about and what the Tories were about. We were for the them, they find that the minimum wage is far below many and they were for the few. I welcome the massive what skilled workers are paid today. U-turn that the Conservatives have made on that, but it I was a little bit offended by the attack on my right is too little too late. hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills by the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Mr MacNeil rose— Reeves). She should apologise for the fact that she did not understand the reasons why he was not in the Chris Ruane: I am afraid that I must make progress, House at the time. I accept that she is new and probably as I am now using up my own time. I thank my hon. inexperienced, but hon. Members need to know the Friends the Members for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and reasons why someone did something before attacking for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for their them in the House. interventions as they gave me an extra two minutes, As has been said many times by the Secretary of which I am eating into now. State, we went through an appalling crash. There is no The policy was resisted tooth and nail by the Tories. getting away from the fact that the Labour party and The House sat for two days in the Chamber and there the bankers drove the country virtually into bankruptcy, were 70 hours of debate in Committee between 22 January and we have had to do something about it. We have and 17 February 1998. The Tories made the direst managed to maintain employment. As has been said, predictions about the introduction of the national minimum 1.5 million people are now working who were not wage, predicting that 2 million jobs would be lost and expected to work. The Opposition’s hope for a triple-dip 937 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 938 recession has not happened. We have managed to drag Gordon Birtwistle: I am not conversant with what the the economy round and things are moving on, but these hon. Gentleman says. I do not study the wage rates of things need to be explained. the federal states of America. I have enough to do What can the Government do about the minimum looking at rates in the UK. But we have kept inflation wage? I agree that the Low Pay Commission should low and we have mitigated the effect of that on the look at the minimum wage. I believe that it should be minimum wage, and we have also managed to create given the right and the power to decide what the minimum extra jobs and wealth. It is interesting that the motion wage is, and it is quite right, as the Secretary of State says that the Opposition agree with making work pay. said, that we should not have political interference in That is the first time since I became a Member in this things of that nature. House that the Opposition have agreed with making What have the Government done to try to mitigate work pay. Hallelujah! They have always had a go at what we have got? By the fact that the Government have Government Members for promoting work to create been doing what they have with the economy, we have wealth for families instead of paying out in benefits. I managed to keep interest rates really low. Let us imagine am over the moon about those three words. If they were what would have happened if we had gone along with in the motion, I would vote for it; unfortunately, they the Labour party’s proposals on the economy. What are not. would interest rates be now? We have mitigated the The Opposition do not have the confidence to include effects of a lot of the low salaries by keeping interest in the motion what they believe the minimum wage rates and mortgage rates down to a very low level. If we should be. I understand that what they suggest runs for look across the rest of Europe, we see interest rates in only 12 months. What will happen after 12 months? Greece and similar places that have climbed to as much Will everyone go back to what they had before, or will as 20%. Let us imagine what would have happened in people lose their jobs? It is a half-baked motion. this country if we had allowed that to happen. We have [Interruption.] It is part of the non-economic plan. mitigated those effects. There is no long-term plan—or a short-term plan. All right, the country has not been able to increase There is no plan at all. The majority of the statements the national minimum wage, and I for one would like in the motion have been covered in the amendment, that to happen. As the Government’s apprenticeship which is a far more sensible approach. I urge hon. ambassador, I would certainly like the minimum wage Members to support the amendment. for apprentices to increase, because we should be investing in young people and delivering jobs of the future, and 5.49 pm we are now doing so. If I had the authority to speak to Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Nothing the Low Pay Commission, I would ask it to look at that speaks more to how the economy simply does not work issue. at the moment for ordinary people in this country than this Government’s record of dither and inaction on low Katy Clark: The hon. Gentleman’s colleagues who sit pay. It should be genuinely shaming for every Member alongside him like to say that we are all in this together, of this House that the United Kingdom had the fifth but he will know that those with the highest earnings, worst levels of poverty pay in the OECD in 2013. We such as the chief executives, are doing very well and should also remember today the tireless work of living their wealth is increasing, and the profits of many wage campaigners, trade unions and those enlightened companies have risen considerably. Should not those employers across the United Kingdom who accept that factors be taken into account along with the cost of our country has no future as a low-skill, poverty-wage living crisis when looking at the level of the national economy and who have achieved fairer deals for workers minimum wage? from the financial services sector through to local government. Gordon Birtwistle: The very profitable companies, such as the big engineering companies and the major Now the Government must meet their share of the multinationals, invariably pay well over the minimum responsibilities by using the procurement system more wage. Many minimum wage payments occur, for example, effectively to secure the living wage for workers through in the care industry and those industries where low pay Government contracts wherever that is possible, because is accepted. I agree that if a company is profitable and although the burden of poverty pay falls most heavily doing well, it should recognise that its employees are on the working poor, who are now using food banks in creating not only wealth for the chief executive but record numbers, it is paid for by every single taxpayer in wealth and security for themselves and for the country. I this country. They are subsidising, through the tax and agree that companies should recognise what employees benefit systems, unacceptable levels of low wages paid do, and the vast majority that do so pay a lot more than by bad employers. That also damages the interests of the national minimum wage. good employers. Over the past three decades, the share of growth Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is actually referring finding its way into the pay packets of ordinary workers to the productivity gains that have been made. Studies on the lower half of the income scale has slumped to in the United States of America show that the productivity just 12p in every £1 of GDP growth generated. Having gains have gone to the top 1%. The federal wage in the denied for months that there is a cost of living crisis in United States is about $7.25. Had that kept pace with our country, the Business Secretary and the Government the minimum wage in the 1960s and had the productivity now ring their hands, for ever pledging change in the gains been distributed at that level, the federal wage future but failing to take the action needed now to would have been treble the present rate. It is a fair bet enforce the minimum wage properly, to reverse its real-terms that the same would be happening in other western fall in value under this Government, or to produce any countries, this one included. long-term plan to restore the broken link between growth, 939 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 940

[Mr William Bain] from this country and from the OECD shows that an uplift in skills gives people the ability to progress in a productivity and wage growth, which is vital to generating job, to get new jobs, and to see a lasting increase in their a lasting uplift in living standards for millions of people wage levels across their career. That is what we need to across our country. be doing across our country in our industrial policy. The Chancellor has been sending out mixed messages The scale of the crisis is being felt in every part of the over the past few weeks ahead of his Budget. He has United Kingdom. A written answer that I received from briefed some newspapers that a significant uplift in the the Cabinet Office last Thursday, at column 250W of minimum wage is on the way, but other newspapers Hansard, shows that according to the most recent survey have received a different story. Whatever he announces of wages and hours worked, conducted last April, over on 19 March will be weighed against the fact that under 16% of my constituents were paid less than the hourly his stewardship since May 2010 the real-terms value of rate for the living wage. Startlingly, in Chingford and the adult minimum wage has fallen by 50p an hour. He Woodford Green, the constituency of the Work and is also launching a £600 million stealth raid on work Pensions Secretary, work is not paying under this incentives for the low-paid through the freeze in the Government, because 43% of workers are earning less work allowance of universal credit for the next three than the living wage, including two in every three male years. A single parent with children will be up to £230 a part-time workers. That shows the scale of what is year worse off as a result of that sneaky change buried happening even in the constituencies of members of the deep in the documents that accompanied the autumn Cabinet such as the Work and Pensions Secretary. statement. The case is clear: there has to be an increase in the Business investment is flatlining, exports are poor, minimum wage. We can work towards the living wage productivity is weak, the squeeze on wages is extending through Make Work Pay contracts, but the Government into 2015, and people are working longer hours than should be fulfilling their responsibilities in saying to the they did in 2008 but have a lot less to show for it. This is Low Pay Commission that low-wage Britain needs a not a Government who can say that they have a credible pay rise, and needs it now. long-term plan to boost the living standards of ordinary working people in Britain. 5.56 pm The Government should be enforcing the minimum Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): As I wage better. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire recently outlined, I am not in favour of a statutory (Jo Swinson) said that bad employers would be named living wage, but I am in favour of raising the minimum and shamed, but we have seen nothing of that so far. wage. The Office for National Statistics told me at the end of A rise in the minimum wage, as national wage growth last month that nearly 300,000 people across our country returns, fundamentally leads to a smaller state, as has are being paid less than the minimum wage, including been outlined by Labour Members. Now that the 17,000 in Scotland, yet we have seen only two prosecutions Government have reduced business taxes—national over the past four years, and the average fine for each insurance, corporation taxes and small business taxes—and breach was only £1,500. brought in last year’s rebate, the time is right to look at how we can create a sustainable growth in the wages of Mel Stride: Does the hon. Gentleman not welcome, the lowest-paid by giving the taxation that the Government as I do, the fact that we are moving from a fine of up to were taking back to the people who are creating the £5,000 per company to a fine of up to £20,000 per wealth in companies. That means that the potentially employee who does not receive the minimum wage? If inflationary pressures will not occur because the 50 employees in a company were affected, presumably Government are not taking tax from a company just to the fine could be as much as £1 million. give it back to a worker.

Mr Bain: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend talks about the intervention, but that would simply mean that the maximum Government cutting business taxes. Does he agree that fine was only 40% of the maximum fine for fly-tipping they have also raised taxes for the rich by increasing in this country. Is he genuinely saying that there should capital gains tax from 18% to 28% and increasing to 45p not be an equivalence between the maximum fine for the 40p rate that existed in the 13 years under Labour? fly-tipping and the maximum fine for failing to pay the national minimum wage? I urge him to think again. Alec Shelbrooke: My hon. Friend puts it most eloquently, as always. Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that This is an uncomfortable truth for Labour Members. minimum wages must have some link with productivity? [Interruption.] They have been yelling and shouting Productivity is like a cake, with workers and CEOs each this afternoon, and they are at it again now as soon as getting a slice, and that is what is making the difference they do not want to hear an inconvenient truth. The to equality in this country. hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) put forward the false premise that Government Members Mr Bain: Unusually, I find myself in agreement with are saying we should increase wages for the people at the hon. Gentleman; I will try not to make this a bad the top and cut them for those at the bottom—no habit. He is right that industrial policy has a big part to Government Member has ever made such a comment; play. it was a disgraceful thing to say—but failed to mention We need to be creating better-skilled jobs to replace that under his party’s Government, the noble Lord those lost over the course of 30 years. We also need a Mandelson said that he was perfectly comfortable with transformation in skills in the workplace, because evidence people getting “filthy rich”. 941 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 942

Mr MacNeil: Is not this debate about the division of Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Will the the spoils of productivity? We are looking for a division hon. Gentleman give way? that is more like that of the 1950s, when those at the bottom were given a larger percentage than they get at Alec Shelbrooke: I have already given way quite a lot, the moment and those at the top got a smaller percentage. so I am afraid that I will not use up any more time. We now have a share-out of the spoils that is creating a Having listened to the contributions of Labour Members, level of inequality between sectors of society that we it seems to me that every single one of them has a have not seen since the 1920s. different idea of what to do with a living wage. Conservative Members accept the lessons of the past. Alec Shelbrooke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Our party accepts that it was wrong to oppose the for giving me that extra minute. I will come to my own minimum wage. The Chancellor, the Prime Minister history lesson in a moment. He will of course welcome and many Conservative Members have made that clear. the fact that under this Government the gap between Indeed, we are a party of young people from normal the poorest and the richest in society is the smallest it backgrounds these days. As the previous Member for has been for 30 years, having grown under the previous South Shields said, the trouble is that the Conservative Labour Government. party is the party with working-class people in it and Let us talk about the problems of falsely increasing the Labour party is full of failed polytechnic lecturers. wages and go back to the 1970s. In 1975, my parents, The fact is that their philosophising and great ideas that who were young teachers, were given a 25% pay rise sound good around the table have a real impact on the under Harold Wilson and were delighted with it. Twelve lives of people at the bottom of society. months later they suffered a 3% pay cut, because inflation Those who cannot afford to keep up with inflation had gone up to 28%. We also remember the then because their income may not rise with it need proper, Labour Chancellor, Denis Healey, demanding wage sustainable policies. One such policy is the opportunity restraint at the Labour party conference, only to be we have taken in this economic climate to cut taxes on booed by the floor. Having listened to this afternoon’s business and cut the national insurance contributions speeches, I am sure that some Members present would of business leaders and employers, followed by making boo him now, too. sure that those tax cuts go back to the people who Wage inflation creates a real problem for people on create the wealth in the first place. That is a sustainable fixed incomes who have worked hard their entire lives and sensible policy and a long-term economic plan. For and paid into private pension funds, only to then see all those reasons, I urge the House to support the them eroded by inflation running out of control. For amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the example, in 1965 my great uncle retired at the age of Prime Minister. 65 on what was then a very reasonable pension of £15 a week. By the mid-1970s it was absolutely worthless. 6.4 pm If we go ahead with wage inflation in the way suggested by the Labour party without linking it to cutting taxes Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Last Wednesday for business and making sure that it is sustainable, we was fat cat Wednesday—the day by which top executives will end up, as Neil Kinnock said, with a Labour in FTSE 100 companies had, two days after returning council running around the city in taxis, giving out to work from the Christmas holidays, earned more redundancy notices. money than the average worker, let alone someone on the minimum wage, will earn in the entire year. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The Like my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd problem for people on the minimum wage, though, is (Chris Ruane), I undertook a job centre survey in that it simply has not kept pace with inflation. Those 1996—in Derby—and I was absolutely shocked by the people would each have been £675 better off had the number of jobs on offer at £1 an hour or less. It had a minimum wage kept pace with inflation, even over the hugely civilising effect on our country when the Labour past five years. Government, who were elected in 1997, introduced the national minimum wage and took millions of people up Alec Shelbrooke: I entirely agree with everything the the income scale as a consequence. hon. Lady has just said. She is absolutely right. The We know that the national minimum wage was opposed minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation, but by the Conservatives in this place and elsewhere in the neither has anybody else’s wage, because of the devastation country, and that the Liberal Democrats could not that the Labour party caused to the economy. It is going really make up their mind: some were in favour and to take decades to get this country back on track, but some against. True to form, since returning to power, what we are seeing now is a long-term, credible they have frozen the amount of resources available for economic plan that is leading to real growth in business its enforcement. That is utterly disgraceful, because the and GDP. consequence of the freeze is to make it that much more It is fundamentally evil to introduce policies that difficult to bring to book exploitative employers who create inflation which people who are on fixed incomes pay below the minimum wage. and who have worked hard all their lives are unable to I have to say that the Secretary of State for Business, keep up with. Such policies must sound very good to Innovation and Skills was all over the place when he the Islington elite as they sit around their dinner tables addressed the House. He said that the political process and say, “Let’s talk about a living wage. We must have a should not interfere with the Low Pay Commission, but living wage.” It is notable, however, that Labour’s motion he went on to say that he had interfered on some does not encourage the Low Pay Commission to look at occasions, and let us remember that it was a political a living wage. decision to bring in the national minimum wage in the 943 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 944

[Chris Williamson] penalties to crackdown on those who do not play by the rules. The message is clear—if you break the law, you will face action. first place. Given the Government’s parsimony in relation As well as higher penalties, we have made it easier to name and to ensuring that the necessary resources are available to shame employers who fail to pay their workers what they are due.” the enforcement body, I want the Secretary of State to make a political intervention by conferring a formal Mel Stride: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a third-party role on the trade union movement. Trade significant step forward that the fines will now relate to unions could help to monitor and enforce the minimum the individuals who have not received the minimum wage by ensuring, when they complain about non- wage, rather than to the companies? compliance, that such complaints are investigated by HMRC as a matter of course, which would make a big Mr Newmark: I thank my hon. Friend for that impact. intervention. I will go into that matter in a little more detail in a minute. Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The Government are taking strong action to deal Chris Williamson: I will not take any interventions, if with the last Labour Government’s failure to have a the hon. Gentleman does not mind, because I know robust system of enforcement for the national minimum that some of my hon. Friends want to speak and they wage. I welcome this week’s announcement that tougher may run out of time. financial penalties will be brought in to crack down on those who do not play by the rules. We certainly need better enforcement. It annoys me that the Conservative party is quite happy to use taxpayers’ Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I support money to subsidise the well-heeled in our society. Not everything that my hon. Friend has said. When I was an enforcing the minimum wage and, indeed, not supporting employer, I always recognised that I would get what I the living wage is a case in point, because taxpayers’ paid for. When a business is successful, that success money goes to subsidise low pay in our country. We should be shared with its employees. I welcome the fact therefore need not just support for the living wage, but that the Government are increasing the fines and are greater penalties to ensure that the national minimum naming and shaming businesses, but I want to see the wage is enforced. It is welcome that penalties are being naming and shaming of the decision makers who increased, but that is still not enough; more needs to be disgracefully choose to exploit their staff. done. Let us be clear that, as my hon. Friends have already Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend is right that there said, when people on low incomes have more money in should be more publicity about those who abuse the their pockets, they spend that money, which creates system. Naming and shaming is a good idea. economic activity and growth, and helps to sustain and To put some numbers on what has been said about create jobs in other industries and businesses. In my penalties, in 2012-13 HMRC identified 736 employers view, that is really important. who had failed to pay the national minimum wage, Having listened to the Conservatives today and knowing which led to the recovery of £3.9 million in unpaid their record from history, it seems to me that one thing wages for more than 26,000 workers. This week’s is pretty clear: we cannot trust them—or, indeed, the announcement will see the penalty for rogue employers Liberal Democrats—with the national minimum wage. raised to up to £20,000. The Government are taking It will take a Labour Government coming to power in punitive, robust action. 2015 to ensure that the national minimum wage is We should not forget that the last Labour Government enforced, that appropriate penalties are imposed on left us with the biggest recession in recent history. This recalcitrant employers and that we can move rapidly Government are helping some of the lowest-paid people towards a living wage to bring all citizens up to a in our society by raising the tax threshold and taking decent standard of living. We owe that to the people of more than 2.7 million people out of tax altogether. this country, but it will take a Labour Government to Mr Anderson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? achieve it. Mr Newmark: No, I cannot take any more interventions. 6.8 pm Furthermore, under this Government we have seen a Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I am delighted net increase of almost 1 million jobs. That means that a to follow the robust speech by the hon. Member for record 30 million people are in work. In other words, Derby North (Chris Williamson). I am probably the more men and more women are in work than ever first Conservative in the Chamber to begin mine by before. Youth unemployment is falling. In the past three supporting the first part of the Opposition motion, months, it has fallen by 19,000. I warmly welcome the which states: abolition of employer’s national insurance contributions “That this House celebrates the 15th anniversary of the introduction for the under-21s, which is something that I have of the National Minimum Wage”. campaigned for hard over the past year with the Million I support the minimum wage, as I believe all Government Jobs campaign. I encourage businesses to take on young Members do, because it is important to make work pay, people and to give our young men and women their first to boost living standards and to tackle in-work poverty. step on the job ladder. I cannot, however, support the rest of the motion. The cost of living is an issue for the low-paid. Given The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that the recovery is well under way, I ask the Government Skills recently said: at least to consider increasing the minimum wage further. “Anyone entitled to the national minimum wage should receive I believe that would be a win-win. It would be a win for it. Paying anything less than this is unacceptable, illegal and will the low-paid because it would help with the cost of be punished by law. So we are bringing in tougher financial living issues that have been raised by Opposition and 945 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 946

Government Members. It would also be a win for the Steve McCabe: What is absolutely the case is that we Exchequer because it would reduce the amount that is should not be listening to people who want to do paid in tax credits. Notwithstanding that, I support the anything to squeeze it down now. Chancellor’s position that we should leave the final The real tragedy has been the appalling lack of judgment to the Low Pay Commission, which takes into enforcement. Last year, my hon. Friend the Member for consideration the impact on overall employment and Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out that there had not on businesses. been a single prosecution for failure to pay the minimum Although I join Opposition Members in celebrating wage between March 2011 and 2013. I am extremely the 15th anniversary of the introduction of the minimum indebted to the Tory party researcher who contacted me wage, I believe that the Government are tackling the to suggest that the figures my hon. Friend used, which issues that they have raised. I therefore cannot support were obtained, as I understand it, from a parliamentary the overall motion, but will support the Government question, were not true. There had indeed been a single amendment. prosecution: a Mr Kenneth Ikerrunaan was apparently fined £1,000 on 26 February for non-payment of the 6.14 pm minimum wage, as part of a multiple charge sheet that Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I was included extensive VAT fraud. Lest Government Members one of those in 1998 who spent the night here as think I am being unfair, I will acknowledge the only Conservative Members did everything in their power to other prosecution that has come to light, that of a try to stop the national minimum wage legislation. butcher in Sheffield who was fined £700. Some, of Today, they are still warning about employment risk. course, argue that the fines are not that important Only last week the Chancellor talked about his fear that because the Inland Revenue can negotiate penalties, but a rise in the minimum wage would jeopardise jobs and of the 937 cases subject to penalties so far, the average risk the recovery. I am afraid that is all too familiar. penalty has been less than £600. That is for people who are defrauding their workers of wages running into We are supposed to believe that there is a new-found hundreds of thousands of pounds. enthusiasm for the minimum wage on the Conservative Benches. They are leaking stories to the press that I acknowledge plans to increase the maximum fine suggest there is a Conservative-Liberal Democrat battle because, as we heard earlier, it is absurd that people can over who will promise a hike in the minimum wage in be fined more for fly-tipping than failure to pay the their 2015 manifestos. Well, they are the coalition. If we minimum wage. It will only make a difference if it is are all in it together, give us something on account: give used to deter those who treat this law with contempt, us some of it now. and it will only make a difference when we see those employers named and shamed as the fraudsters they are. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): On I am pleased that there is some talk about supporting support for the living wage, does the hon. Gentleman better wages, and I welcome the comments of the agree that leading by example is important in the private director of the CBI, but as well as employers evading and public sector, including in Government Departments? their legal responsibilities regarding the minimum wage, Does he recognise that Conservatives have been on the it is estimated that nearly 5 million workers in this case for a number of years? Boris Johnson, the Mayor country do not earn a living wage. I was shocked to of London, has introduced the London living wage in discover only last week that the university of Birmingham city hall. was refusing to pay 250 of its lowest-paid staff a living Steve McCabe: I am a fan of the living wage and I wage, but could afford to pay its vice-chancellor a salary will mention it before I finish. increase of £28,000. We need a living wage from those who can afford it, we need an enforcement policy so Forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I am a little that the minimum wage can be made a reality, and we cynical, but there is a consistent thread to Tory opposition. need rogue employers who recruit foreign workers to In 1983, they abolished the fair wage resolution. In undercut the minimum wage told bluntly that we do not 1993, they abolished wages councils. It took them until want that kind of business here. 2005 to give a manifesto commitment to retain the minimum wage. Of course, nobody told the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), who has made successive 6.20 pm efforts to sabotage it. All of that is probably why only Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure 14% of people think the Tory party best represents to speak in an incredibly important debate that has low-paid, private sector workers. The sad truth is that huge implications for people in my constituency. In the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation and 1905, boot and shoe workers from the second-largest the early gains have been wiped out. In October, those town in my area, Raunds, marched near Parliament to on the minimum wage got a 12p rise while the Government demand fair pay from the War Office, and they won were busy giving millionaire bankers a tax cut worth their campaign. There is a long tradition in my constituency £100 million. It is funny how that poses so little threat of fighting for a living wage, and we all owe a debt of to the economy. In fact, it apparently poses no threat at thanks to those hon. Members who passed the minimum all, because they are about to give them another one. wage in 1997. It was, indeed, a great achievement for the Mr MacNeil: Given that the stories of doom about Labour party—not just that Labour Government, but the minimum wage did not amount to anything, does the Labour movement—in more than a century of the hon. Gentleman look back with hindsight, as openly fighting for a better standard of living for working and as honestly as he can, and think that the minimum people in this country. wage could have started on a higher rate without any ill Today, though, my constituency is plagued by problems, effects? particularly in connection with employment agencies 947 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 948

[Andy Sawford] employers have signed up, too, but I want them all to sign up. I want them to know that if they do not, we will that treat many workers unfairly and make unfair be on their backs; and that if they break minimum wage deductions from pay—for example, transport costs, law, the Government will fine and fine them properly so unlawfully charging for personal protective equipment that they do not do it again. and making workers pay a payroll company just to get I had hoped to cover other issues on the living wage their own very low pay—and those deductions take and, in particular, on zero-hours contracts. I hope all people below the minimum wage. The latest scandal hon. Members will support my private Member’s Bill involves local agencies charging workers £2.50 a week on zero-hours contracts, which I shall introduce next for personal accident insurance, which they buy for Friday. pennies and then sell on at a profit to the worker, when of course the worker is already protected by the employer’s 6.25 pm liability insurance. It is another way of bringing down the employer’s premium and scamming the workers. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): In 1999, the national minimum wage lifted 1.5 million people I am grateful to the hon. Member for East out of poverty pay. As has been said, it was one of the Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), who I wish well—she greatest achievements of Labour in power. I am proud recently gave birth to a son—for supporting me in to say that my predecessor, Stephen Byers, then Secretary getting Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the of State for Trade and Industry, was instrumental in Employment Agencies Standards Inspectorate to come introducing this policy, which has made a difference to to Corby to investigate the 32 agencies operating in my the lives of so many low-paid workers in the last 15 years. area. They found that 12 agencies were breaching the More than 5% of workers earn the minimum wage, and minimum wage law and that £120,000 was payable to I am pleased to see that, for some, thanks to the work of more than 3,000 local workers. Two of the investigations unions such as GMB and Unison, this has been upgraded have been completed, and penalty charges totalling to a living wage. If we are serious that work should pay £1,532 and wages totally £3,154 have been paid back to for everyone, including young people, this must surely workers, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. These are be achieved for all workers in future, which is Labour’s very small figures. The remaining 10 agencies have an ambition. average of £12,000 to pay back to local workers, but for some of the largest agencies—they are also national This debate acknowledges the introduction of the agencies—operating in my area that figure will be up to minimum wage and its benefits, but it remains shocking £40,000 or £50,000. to see that figures from the Office for National Statistics show that last year, 279,000 people received less than On the two agencies that have had to pay penalty the minimum wage. I was disappointed to find that charges, I must say to the Government that it really is 15,000 of those workers were in the north-east. Those not much money. Having to pay back £1,532, having figures show why it is so important to make sure that scammed local workers out of £3,154, is hardly a deterrent employers—even in these hard times—comply with the to them and other local employers. I appreciate the law. support from the Government so far, but will the Minister The general-secretary of the TUC has today welcomed consider whether, in those cases, fines should have been the increases in penalties for employers who fail to pay imposed? We know that they have breached the law. If the minimum wage. She cautioned, however, that Her in the other 10 cases we find even more substantial Majesty’s Revenue and Customs must have the appropriate breaches, as we surely will given the figures HMRC is resources to enforce those penalties. In fact, the Public looking at, I hope we will impose fines. I welcome the and Commercial Services Union has pointed out that move to increase the fines announced today. I would there are only 90 full-time staff employed as compliance like it to go further, but let us acknowledge that the officers. Although the union welcomes the increase in Government are moving in the right direction. Enforcement penalties, it believes that the emphasis needs to be on is critical, however. The increase in the fines is meaningless the worker. The priority should be making sure that unless we take enforcement action to deter people from employees get the pay they are owed, rather than breaching the law. It is a huge rip-off. concentrating only on fining the employer. We have taken other initiatives. I am delighted that Last year, HMRC managed to get £4 million for Channel 4’s “Dispatches” worked with me to investigate workers, but that sum would have been more if HMRC the issues in my constituency and did some undercover had not had a budget underspend. Since 2010, HMRC reporting that was shown on Channel 4. A director of has underspent on the national minimum wage enforcement Staffline, one of the biggest agencies in my area with budget, year on year. I agree with PCS that HMRC known issues of exploiting workers, was filmed saying should have more money for enforcement, but that the that he could ensure, through a legal loophole, that Department must not be allowed to underspend in Corby workers would be paid less than workers for a order to meet Government savings targets, which negate particular company on another site in this country. those enforcement efforts. I hope that the Government That is absolutely wrong. These agencies find ways to will heed the union and the TUC on this matter. exploit workers and help companies to do it. Finally, let me raise an issue on behalf of Longbenton The companies are responsible for their own actions. air cadets—the top air cadets in the country. Before I say to them all that they should sign up to the Christmas, I attended an evening with the cadets about employment agency charter that we have launched in the working of Parliament, in which a role-play Commons Corby. Some of the best agencies have worked with us debate was acted out. Young people’s pay was debated, because they are proud of their practice. There is a role and they asked me to raise the issue of apprentices’ for temporary employment and there can be a role for wages, which are only £2.68 an hour. Those who have agencies in certain circumstances. Some of our local apprenticeships are grateful, but they would like to be 949 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 950 paid a more realistic wage. After all, who of us in this rate has gone up by 18p. That is a derisory amount, and House could live on £2.68 an hour if we were young I do not think that it can serve as an incentive for our today? young people. We want the national minimum wage regulations to 6.29 pm be reviewed again. Following a campaign by us, they were reviewed, and we were told that the minimum John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Let wage would apply in British waters, but the Government me use the last few minutes of the debate to identify then redefined the concept of British waters, which some cases, as my comrades have done. We have been became a narrow channel consisting basically of the asked to name and shame, so let us do that. We have Norfolk Broads. That was about it. As a result, employers been campaigning in the maritime sector for a national were able to pay below the minimum wage, and also to minimum wage for a long time. To be frank, people avoid some elements of the Equality Act. That is were disappointed at developments under the last unacceptable in this day and age. I urge the Government Government, but we did secure a working party between at least to consider enforcement against that company, the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport so that we can use it as an example to make clear to Workers, Nautilus and the Department, which other shipowners that we will not tolerate any more produced a redefinition of the national minimum wage poverty pay on British ships. qualifications for seafarers. It was done on the basis of the individual’s connection with the country and so forth, and we felt that it was a breakthrough, but it is 6.33 pm not being enforced. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The hon. Member Let me provide an example. The most notable exception for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) reminded us that in that we found involved the lifeline passenger freight 1906 the Labour party was in favour of a national ferry routes from Portsmouth, Poole and Weymouth to minimum wage. During the 92 years before we got one, the Channel Islands. They are operated by Condor the people who kept the light shining for the campaign Ferries, which employs seafarers from outside the European were members of the trade union movement, although I economic area who are paid £2.35 an hour. Despite should add that some union members were not in frequent protests against the pay discrimination by the favour. RMT, the HMRC enforcement team has taken no Throughout the dark days of the 1980s and 1990s, action, and is not enforcing the Government’s own the person who led the campaign more than anyone else policy. I agree with the Public and Commercial Services was Rodney Bickerstaffe, the leader of the National Union that that is because there are so few staff and Union of Public Employees and Unison. In 1997, I was they are not given enough powers or resources. That proud to sit with Rodney at the first Low Pay Commission firm is a disgrace. We have raised the issue time and hearings, where we gave evidence about what should be again, but we have been completely ignored, and done about the national minimum wage. The union enforcement action is now necessary. argued at the time that the level should be set at £4.15 an In 2012, we pointed out that Streamline Shipping was hour, but unfortunately the Government of the day, operating a freight service from Aberdeen to the Shetland although they were doing the right thing in general, Islands and exploiting the Government’s lax national decided to press for a level of £3.60. minimum wage and Equality Act 2010 regulations to If the Government had listened to the unions, we employ Filipino workers and pay them half the minimum would not be having a debate about the living wage, wage. We want all workers, whatever their nationality, because if the minimum wage had been set at £4.15 then, to be paid a decent wage. it would be a living wage now. That would not only have Another scam has been referred to by my hon. Friends. been the right thing to do for people in work, but it The cost of accommodation is now being deducted would have saved the billions of pounds in benefit that from seafarers’ wages. The sum deducted is currently we have been spending over the past 15 years to supplement £4.91 per day, or £34.73 per week. On most ships that the wages paid by exploitative employers. We could do a sail from our ports, seamen work two weeks on, two lot worse than listen to what the unions are saying now. weeks off, so that amounts to a deduction of some £70. Unison’s submission to the Low Pay Commission for That is extraordinary. Do the seamen clock off and go this year includes a number of recommendations which home on their own boats? Are dinghies attached to the I hope will be supported by both Front Benches. boats? It is ridiculous, and it is yet another way of First and foremost, the union makes the point that it undermining pay in the sector. is clear that the national minimum wage has slipped Finally, let me take up what was said by my hon. behind, and we should move progressively in stages Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) towards having a living wage for all workers. In particular about apprentices’ pay. Along with the UK Chamber of we should make up the ground that has been lost, as the Shipping, the employers and the unions—the RMT and Secretary of State acknowledged, of its being at least Nautilus—we have embarked on a drive to get young 5% behind the retail prices index this year. The Government people back on to British ships as ratings. They can as well as the trade unions should have that objective train with a grant, and subsequently rise to officer level. going forward. We are trying to encourage people to learn the skills of The subject of breaches of the legislation has been British seafaring so that we can maintain the industry talked about on both sides of the House. The unions are itself. Our efforts are not helped by some recruitment putting forward the case that there should be a new practices, but at least we have a campaign going. Paying formal complaints mechanism, meaning that if a trade people £2.68 an hour, even when they are apprentices, is union, law centre or citizens advice bureau puts forward not acceptable. In the last few years, the apprenticeship a formal complaint on behalf of workers, that should 951 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 952

[Mr David Anderson] payable by employers if they did not abide by the national minimum wage legislation. I do wonder with be treated by HMRC as a formal complaint and must my cynical nature why those regulations were laid only be investigated. That should be supported, because today yet the Prime Minister announced this policy those are the people on the ground with direct contact back in November. Perhaps the Opposition’s calling for with workers. this debate has oiled the wheels. On enforcement, the unions make the case clearly It was unkind of the Business Secretary to say that that instead of freezing funding for enforcement, which the previous Labour Government had only one or two is what has happened over the last period, it should be successes, the national minimum wage being one. Several dramatically increased for the people on the ground. If others were shouted at him across the Dispatch Box and that were the case, we would not be seeing the exploitation he responded by saying perhaps there were those things that was mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members as well. However, the one thing that the Business Secretary for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for has managed to do—his one great success and what his Corby (Andy Sawford). legacy will be—is to destroy completely the Liberal On penalties, we welcome the increase and the fact Democrats party. that the penalties will be for each worker not just per I would like to acknowledge and put on record that company, but I asked the Secretary of State whether he we were perhaps slightly unkind to the Business Secretary, will reinvest the money raised through fines in funding not realising the circumstances behind his not voting in for enforcement. That is where it should go. It should favour of the national minimum wage, and we apologise not be a windfall to the Treasury so that the vicious if we got that wrong. However, that does not take away circle is continued. from the fact that the Liberal Democrats were against The right treatment for 18 to 20-year-old apprentices the national minimum wage when they were campaigning has always been clearly argued for by the trade union in the run-up to the 1997 election. They supported it in movement. The differentiation based on a person’s age the Chamber on Second and Third Reading of the Bill, is immoral. If somebody is good enough to do the job, but that simply shows that they flip-flopped between they are old enough to do the job and that principle what they stated in their manifesto and what they did in should be enshrined in law. If they are not doing the full the House. I am sure that we have seen that before. Also, job, then differentiation is fair enough, but if they are in the House of Lords they strengthened the regulations doing the full job they should be paid the full rate. The on the requirements for the Government to take Secretary of State mentioned that apprentices were enforcement action. I was disappointed by the Secretary getting a derisory 3p pay increase to £2.68. We cannot of State’s response to this debate. buy a pint of beer in this place for £2.68—and before When moving the Second Reading of the National somebody from the TaxPayers Alliance has a go at me Minimum Wage Bill in December 1997, the then President about that I will add that we all know that the beer here of the Board of Trade, my right hon. Friend the Member is subsidised. Apprentice pay should be at least the for Derby South (Margaret Beckett), said that the national development or the youth rate. There must also be a minimum wage was discussion about zero-hours contracts and the national “a clear example of how a Labour Government can and will minimum wage and exploitation. make a real difference to the lives of people across Britain, The argument put forward about travel time is an contributing to fairness and prosperity for the many, not the absolute disgrace. The care workers who do such important few.”—[Official Report, 16 December 1997; Vol. 303, c. 173.] work for people in our communities are not being paid How relevant that statement is today. for travelling from house to house. The Secretary of Fifteen years have passed, and the national minimum State says that is illegal, so let us make sure everybody wage is now an economic and political fact of life for us in this country gets behind that. It is also clear that we all. It is undoubtedly one of Labour’s proudest must give the people running care in this country—the achievements, and I wonder whether the present Prime councils and private organisations—the necessary funds. Minister now regrets campaigning against it in the It is also a disgrace that people are being made to lose mid-1990s. The then Opposition castigated the policy money because of having to live where they work, as as a burden on business, arguing that increasing wages has been mentioned. After all, £4.91 might not be very at the bottom would cost more than 1 million jobs. It much to us, but it is a big chunk out of some people’s did nothing of the sort. We should celebrate the fact pay. that it contributed to the ending of poverty pay and boosted living standards in this country.That was confirmed Finally, there is another scam: people being made to by the Low Pay Commission in 2013, when it stated that pay for uniforms and work equipment. That is wrong, it is immoral and it should not happen. “the research had…found few adverse effects on aggregate employment;…individual employment or unemployment probabilities; or regional employment or unemployment differences.” 6.38 pm The days when an employer could legally pay someone Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): The small number as little as £1 were brought to an end despite the of Members on the Government Benches at the tail-end vehement opposition of the Conservatives. of this debate highlights their commitment to the national It was not only the Conservatives who were against minimum wage, and I have to say I was slightly disappointed the introduction of the national minimum wage. I should by the Business Secretary’s response to this debate. He like to draw the attention of the House to the record of said he did not want a tribal debate, and then went on to the First Minister for Scotland. When he was in this give a very tribal response to the shadow Secretary of House, he abstained on Second Reading of the National State. He also said he was delighted to have laid regulations Minimum Wage Bill, and the Scottish National party as today to increase the amount in fines that would be a whole did not vote on Third Reading. 953 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 954

Dr Whiteford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? his restatement of the Tories’ trickle-down policy of economics in this country. My hon. Friend the Member Ian Murray: I am afraid I do not have time to give for Derby North (Chris Williamson) talked passionately way, although I see that when the nationalists are provoked, about the need for effective enforcement and rightly they tend to respond. said that it would take political direction to bring in the I want to comment on some of the contributions living wage. The Business Secretary did say that the from both sides of the House to today’s debate. My Low Pay Commission should be free of political right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West interference, but bringing in the national minimum Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) was right to say that the wage and, indeed, the living wage is a political direction, existence of the national minimum wage is a statement and we should all be striving for that. about the kind of country we are. She was also 100% My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly right to highlight the real-life impact of low pay on Oak (Steve McCabe) was one of the hon. Members who individuals and families, and particularly on women stayed in this House all night trying to get the national with child care responsibilities, who are disproportionately minimum wage legislation through. Let us not affected by employers who do not abide by national underestimate the former right hon. and hon. Members, minimum wage legislation. and those who still sit in this House, who made such I was quite taken by the remarks of the hon. Member effort to get this legislation through, despite the vehement for Harlow (Robert Halfon). He was right to be contrite, opposition of many on the Opposition Benches. and to apologise for his party’s previous stance on the My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) national minimum wage. Unfortunately, however, as has done some wonderful work in his constituency since recently as yesterday, the hon. Member for Esher and he was elected in that wonderful by-election victory, Walton (Mr Raab) wrote in the Evening Standard that and he gave numerous examples of where workers are any increase in the national minimum wage would be a paid less than the national minimum wage because of “massive jobs tax on business”. unlawful deductions. He mentioned the increasing problem of the personal accident insurance that is being taken He also described it as “oversold”, and said that this off employees; it is costing employers pennies but they “policy cross-dressing is more likely to confuse than impress are taking pounds from employees. We have to make voters”. sure that there is enforcement on such issues. Perhaps the hon. Member for Harlow is a lone voice on My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside the Conservative Benches when it comes to defending (Mrs Glindon) is a passionate advocate for the living the national minimum wage in the trenches. That would wage and rightly gave credit to the councils that are be a shame. paying it. My local council in Edinburgh is paying My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd above the living wage and has done since 2011, and we (Chris Ruane) said that the very low-paid could not should encourage more councils and employers to do even comprehend the pay packets of the most wealthy more. When I am at this Dispatch Box I always find that in this country. He summed up the debate well when he my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said that the minimum wage was for the many and not (John McDonnell) speaks last, or second last, and is for the few. He also reminded us that the National curtailed in his contributions. I would like to hear an Minimum Wage Bill Committee sat for an unprecedented awful lot more of him speaking in this Chamber, because 70 hours. Anyone here who has served on Bill Committees he deserves significant congratulations on the campaign over the past four years will realise that to do so for he has run against national minimum wage exploitation; 70 hours involves quite an undertaking. That just shows we heard some of the issues relating to the shipping the then Government’s commitment to getting the legislation industry from him. through. Last, but certainly not least, my hon. Friend the I am always delighted to hear the hon. Member for Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) talked about why Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) speak in the Chamber, enforcement fines should go back into the enforcement although I never agree with a word that he says. Given industry, to make sure that we can enforce the system that he is a Liberal Democrat, I thought he might have better and that exploitation is rooted out. been a little more contrite on this subject. Let us give We have had a robust debate on the national minimum credit where it is due, however. He did say that he had wage, in which I have been struck by the Government’s always supported the national minimum wage and always restatement of their policies. Indeed, they have re-announced paid it. If any of the hon. Gentleman’s employees or their policy on naming and shaming more times than former employees want to get in touch to dispel that they have actually used it, which is surprising. We need rumour, we would be willing to hear from them. more action from the Government on these issues, My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East rather than the restating of policies. When the Prime (Mr Bain) reminded the House of the statistic that the Minister, no less, announced the increase in fines back UK has the fifth worst levels of poverty pay in the in November, I am sure that the Government had no OECD. We should be doing something about that. He intention of rushing them through—until the Opposition also mentioned the impact of low pay on the welfare called this debate. But that is not new in this House, and budget, and the fact that since 2010 the national minimum this Opposition will continue to press the Government wage has fallen behind to the tune of 50p an hour. to get results. The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Labour will also bring in Make Work Pay contracts Shelbrooke), always an entertaining speaker in this to encourage people to pay the living wage, and we have House, talked about how increasing wages for the lowest instigated a review led by Alan Buckle, the former paid was false and fake. I do not think the pay of the deputy chairman of KPMG. He will look in detail at poorest in this society is false and fake, but I did enjoy how to restore the value of the minimum wage; how to 955 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 956

[Ian Murray] As all Members are aware, the Low Pay Commission will report to us next month on the recommended wage ensure that sectors that can afford to pay more do so; for 2014, and the Government will respond shortly and how we can promote better the living wage. In after. As we have heard this afternoon, we must ensure November, the Leader of the Opposition also outlined that the existing wage rates are properly enforced, which how a future Labour Government will provide tax is why this Government’s steps to hit those firms found incentives for employers that sign up to pay the living guilty of failing to pay the wages with penalties and wage—employers, employees, trade unions, the Government publicity will be so important. and the Treasury all working together to share the Let me turn to the points that have been made by benefits of lifting pay for the lowest paid in this country. Members across the House this afternoon. We started Those benefits can be shared for all; I think that that is with a typically thoughtful contribution from my hon. the right way to go. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), who Labour created the national minimum wage, despite has looked a great deal at this area. He mentioned the strong opposition, and it is Labour that will strengthen reintroduction of the 10p tax band, which is an interesting it for all the low-paid people around our country, moving suggestion. [Interruption.] Yes, who did abolish the together towards the shared goal of making work pay 10p tax rate? I think it was the Labour party! My hon. for all. It is Labour that will take proper sanctions Friend also talked about making some changes to national against those who do not pay it. That is only fair to insurance contributions, but the most important thing those who work hard, do the right thing and deserve to he said was that we want to leave workers with more be paid properly. That is what we are trying to do today, money in their pockets, and that is what this Government and I hope that the Government will support our motion. are all about. 6.49 pm The hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) reminded us all that the Low Pay Commission is The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): independent, which is critical. It was set up by the This afternoon’s debate has been a good one, and we previous Government and we need to wait to hear what have heard interesting contributions from all parts of it recommends before we make any further decisions. the House. I counted 13 Back-Bench Members of Parliament who have been able to contribute in the My hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell couple of hours available to us. I will try, shortly, to (Alec Shelbrooke) was absolutely right about the importance address as many of the points raised as possible in the of low inflation. I am sure that he, like all Members, will time allowed to me. welcome the recent fall in inflation and the impact that The shadow Secretary of State and many Opposition that will have on people’s wages and the amount of Members have taken great pride in pointing out that money that households have to spend. 17 years ago some members of my party had reservations My hon. Friend the Member for Braintree about the impact that a minimum wage might have on (Mr Newmark), who is not in his place at the moment, UK businesses. The Opposition are right to point out talked about the policy to abolish national insurance that some of those fears—[Interruption.] I think they contributions for those under the age of 21, which was might want to listen to this. They are right to point out announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in that some of those fears have been unfounded and that the autumn statement. He was absolutely right to say the minimum wage has been important for our lower-paid that we must encourage businesses to take on as many workers. I hope Opposition Members will realise that young employees as they possibly can. acknowledging mistakes is not terribly hard. The shadow Let me move on to the contributions from Opposition Chancellor might want to think about that when he Members. The right hon. Member for Dulwich and realises who crashed our economy. West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) and the hon. Members What we have to remember is that this is all about for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), for Derby North finding the right balance. Yes, we would like to see a (Chris Williamson), for Corby (Andy Sawford), for faster increase in the national minimum wage and everyone North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) and for Hayes and sharing in the recovery, but if an increase were to cost Harlington (John McDonnell) all talked about enforcement. people their jobs or to slow down the recovery, then it I am sure that others did as well. In 2012-13, Her would, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said last Majesty’s Revenue and Customs collected £3.9 million week, be completely self-defeating. That is why my right in arrears for workers; 26,500 workers benefited. That hon. Friend the Business Secretary has asked the Low was a 33% increase in the number of workers benefiting Pay Commission, whose judgment and expertise we and a 26% increase in the number of arrears identified. value greatly, to consider the conditions that we would Seven hundred employers were penalised last year for need for a faster increase. failing to comply with the national minimum wage rates, and the value of fines, as my right hon. Friend the Chris Williamson: Does the hon. Lady deprecate Secretary of State said earlier, was seven times higher those employment agencies that seek to use the Swedish last year than it was in 2009-10. derogation model to get around the implementation of the minimum wage? Is that not a gross abuse of that In 2009-10, 381 penalties were charged, and last year derogation, and does she deprecate it? it was 696, although it had risen to more than 900 in the previous two years. Opposition Members talked about Nicky Morgan: I will come on to that point, as the the amount of money that was given to the enforcement hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) mentioned it agencies. However, it is not necessarily about how much in his speech. If Members will forgive me, I will accept money is given but how effective those enforcement only a few interventions because I want to reflect on the agencies are with the money that is given to them—a points that have been raised this afternoon. principle that Government Members take very seriously. 957 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 958

I must comment on the point made by the hon. Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) about the original words stand part of the Question. fact that although it had taken the Labour party nearly The House divided: Ayes 235, Noes 299. 100 years to deliver the national minimum wage, it got there in the end. It looks like it is going to take the Division No. 180] [6.58 pm shadow Chancellor 100 years before the Labour party comes up with a long-term economic plan. He has AYES plenty of time and we look forward to hearing it. Abbott, Ms Diane Durkan, Mark Opposition Members, particularly the hon. Member Abrahams, Debbie Eagle, Ms Angela Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Eagle, Maria for Glasgow North East, did not tackle the fact that the Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Efford, Clive rise in the income tax threshold introduced by the Alexander, Heidi Elliott, Julie Government has left more money in workers’ pockets. Ali, Rushanara Ellman, Mrs Louise The hon. Gentleman talked about comparisons with Allen, Mr Graham Engel, Natascha the minimum wage and what it was when Labour was in Anderson, Mr David Esterson, Bill government, but the fact is that constituents come to Ashworth, Jonathan Evans, Chris MPs from both sides of the House and say that they Austin, Ian Farrelly, Paul have more money in their pockets as a result of the fact Bailey, Mr Adrian Field, rh Mr Frank that the personal allowance has gone up. Bain, Mr William Fitzpatrick, Jim Balls, rh Ed Flello, Robert The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve Barron, rh Kevin Flint, rh Caroline McCabe) talked about UK employees being undercut. Bayley, Hugh Flynn, Paul We have asked the Equality and Human Rights Beckett, rh Margaret Francis, Dr Hywel Commission to explain what enforcement action it is Begg, Dame Anne Gapes, Mike taking against employment agencies that discriminate Benn, rh Hilary Gardiner, Barry against our nationals, for example by advertising UK Benton, Mr Joe Gilmore, Sheila jobs exclusively overseas. That is an issue we are aware Berger, Luciana Glass, Pat of and we have asked the EHRC to address it. Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Blackman-Woods, Roberta Godsiff, Mr Roger I thought that the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Blomfield, Paul Goodman, Helen Sawford) was very fair in his remarks about enforcement Blunkett, rh Mr David Greatrex, Tom in his constituency. There is clearly more to come and I Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Green, Kate heard what he said about the new penalty figures and Brennan, Kevin Greenwood, Lilian the penalties that have been levied. I am sure that my Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia colleagues in BIS will take note of what he said. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew The hon. Member for Blaydon talked about care Brown, Mr Russell Hain, rh Mr Peter workers. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Fabian Buck, Ms Karen Hanson, rh Mr David said, the guidance on travelling time has been updated. Burden, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet It is right that we should do more to get that guidance Byrne, rh Mr Liam Harris, Mr Tom out. I have been approached about it in my constituency Campbell, Mr Alan Healey, rh John office as the Member of Parliament for Loughborough Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hendrick, Mark and we certainly need to disseminate it better. Caton, Martin Heyes, David We had some interesting contributions from Members Clark, Katy Hillier, Meg this afternoon and I thank all Members for their Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hilling, Julie contributions. I am aware that I have not necessarily Coaker, Vernon Hodge, rh Margaret been able to respond to all the points that have been Coffey, Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Connarty, Michael Hosie, Stewart raised this afternoon. I shall certainly take away what Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr George has been said and I will read the debate to see whether Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tristram we need to tackle any other issues. Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw It is fair to say that almost everyone who has spoken Crausby, Mr David Jackson, Glenda in the Chamber today wants to achieve the same goals. Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy We want to see those who receive the minimum wage Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan paid fairly and we want to see those who do not pay the Cryer, John Johnson, rh Alan minimum wage treated harshly. I am sure all Members Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Diana Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Graham welcome today’s announcement, mentioned by Government Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Helen Members, that the fines have been quadrupled from Curran, Margaret Jones, Mr Kevan £5,000 to £20,000. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary Dakin, Nic Jones, Susan Elan of State said, we would also like to increase those fines Danczuk, Simon Jowell, rh Dame Tessa to £20,000 per worker, which will send a clear message David, Wayne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald to employers who think that they can flout the minimum Davidson, Mr Ian Keeley, Barbara wage regulations that that is not an option and that they Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz need to pay a fair wage for a fair day’s work. De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David We want wages to continue to rise, unemployment to Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian continue to fall and our economy to continue to recover, Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark and we want everyone in this country to share in that. I Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris ask the House to wait for the Low Pay Commission’s Dowd, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma report, to reject the motion and to support the Government Dromey, Jack Lewis, Mr Ivan amendment. Dugher, Michael Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn 959 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 960

Lucas, Caroline Rotheram, Steve Bray, Angie Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lucas, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Brazier, Mr Julian Glen, John MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Roy, Lindsay Bridgen, Andrew Goldsmith, Zac Mactaggart, Fiona Ruane, Chris Brine, Steve Gove, rh Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard Mahmood, Shabana Sarwar, Anas Brooke, Annette Grant, Mrs Helen Malhotra, Seema Sawford, Andy Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris Marsden, Mr Gordon Seabeck, Alison Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Green, rh Damian McCabe, Steve Shannon, Jim Buckland, Mr Robert Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCann, Mr Michael Sharma, Mr Virendra Burns, Conor Griffiths, Andrew McCarthy, Kerry Sheerman, Mr Barry Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben McClymont, Gregg Sheridan, Jim Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam McDonagh, Siobhain Shuker, Gavin Burstow, rh Paul Hague, rh Mr William McDonald, Andy Skinner, Mr Dennis Burt, rh Alistair Halfon, Robert McDonnell, John Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, rh Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike McGovern, Alison Smith, Angela Cable, rh Vince Hands, Greg McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Nick Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark McKechin, Ann Smith, Owen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harrington, Richard McKenzie, Mr Iain Spellar, rh Mr John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca McKinnell, Catherine Straw, rh Mr Jack Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Stringer, Graham Carswell, Mr Douglas Harvey, Sir Nick Meale, Sir Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Cash, Mr William Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mearns, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Chishti, Rehman Hayes, rh Mr John Miliband, rh Edward Tami, Mark Chope, Mr Christopher Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, Andrew Thomas, Mr Gareth Clappison, Mr James Hemming, John Mitchell, Austin Thornberry, Emily Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon Moon, Mrs Madeleine Timms, rh Stephen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Coffey, Dr Thérèse Herbert, rh Nick Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Turner, Karl Collins, Damian Hinds, Damian Morris, Grahame M. Twigg, Derek Colvile, Oliver Hoban, Mr Mark (Easington) Twigg, Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Munn, Meg Umunna, Mr Chuka Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Murphy, rh Mr Jim Vaz, rh Keith Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Murphy, rh Paul Vaz, Valerie Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Murray, Ian Walley, Joan Davey, rh Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Nandy, Lisa Watson, Mr Tom Davies, David T. C. Huppert, Dr Julian Nash, Pamela Watts, Mr Dave (Monmouth) Hurd, Mr Nick O’Donnell, Fiona Weir, Mr Mike Davies, Glyn Jackson, Mr Stewart Onwurah, Chi Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Davies, Philip James, Margot Osborne, Sandra Whitehead, Dr Alan Davis, rh Mr David Javid, Sajid Owen, Albert Williams, Hywel de Bois, Nick Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pearce, Teresa Williamson, Chris Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Perkins, Toby Wilson, Phil Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Phillipson, Bridget Winnick, Mr David Dorries, Nadine Jones, Andrew Pound, Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, rh Mr David Powell, Lucy Wishart, Pete Drax, Richard Jones, Mr Marcus Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wood, Mike Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kelly, Chris Reed, Mr Jamie Woodcock, John Reed, Mr Steve Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Wright, David Reeves, Rachel Ellison, Jane Knight, rh Sir Greg Wright, Mr Iain Reynolds, Emma Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kwarteng, Kwasi Reynolds, Jonathan Tellers for the Ayes: Elphicke, Charlie Lamb, Norman Riordan, Mrs Linda Tom Blenkinsop and Eustice, George Lancaster, Mark Robertson, John Mr David Hamilton Evans, Graham Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Latham, Pauline NOES Evennett, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Adams, Nigel Bellingham, Mr Henry Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Afriyie, Adam Benyon, Richard Field, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Aldous, Peter Beresford, Sir Paul Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy Amess, Mr David Berry, Jake Fox,rhDrLiam Leigh, Sir Edward Andrew, Stuart Bingham, Andrew Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Binley, Mr Brian Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Baker, Norman Birtwistle, Gordon Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Baldry, rh Sir Tony Blackman, Bob Gale, Sir Roger Lidington, rh Mr David Baldwin, Harriett Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Sir Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Barker, rh Gregory Bone, Mr Peter Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Baron, Mr John Bradley, Karen George, Andrew Loughton, Tim Bebb, Guto Brady, Mr Graham Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Sir Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan Brake, rh Tom Gilbert, Stephen Lumley, Karen 961 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 962

Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Division No. 181] [7.11 pm Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris AYES McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Adams, Nigel de Bois, Nick McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Afriyie, Adam Dinenage, Caroline McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Aldous, Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Amess, Mr David Dorries, Nadine McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Andrew, Stuart Doyle-Price, Jackie McVey, Esther Spencer, Mr Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Drax, Richard Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Baker, Norman Duddridge, James Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Baldry, rh Sir Tony Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Barclay, Stephen Ellison, Jane Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Barker, rh Gregory Ellwood, Mr Tobias Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Baron, Mr John Elphicke, Charlie Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Mowat, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Berry, Jake Featherstone, Lynne Mulholland, Greg Swire, rh Mr Hugo Bingham, Andrew Field, Mark Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert Binley, Mr Brian Foster, rh Mr Don Munt, Tessa Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Birtwistle, Gordon Fox,rhDrLiam Murray, Sheryll Thornton, Mike Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Neill, Robert Thurso, John Blackwood, Nicola Freer, Mike Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Sir Roger Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Bradley, Karen Garnier, Sir Edward Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mark O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Brake, rh Tom Gauke, Mr David Offord, Dr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Bray, Angie George, Andrew Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul Brazier, Mr Julian Gibb, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh Bridgen, Andrew Gilbert, Stephen Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Vickers, Martin Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Paice, rh Sir James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Brokenshire, James Glen, John Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles Brooke, Annette Gove, rh Michael Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Robin Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard Pawsey, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grant, Mrs Helen Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Penrose, John Watkinson, Dame Angela Burns, Conor Green, rh Damian Percy, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Burns, rh Mr Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Phillips, Stephen Webb, Steve Burrowes, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Burstow, rh Paul Gummer, Ben Poulter, Dr Daniel Wharton, James Burt, rh Alistair Hague, rh Mr William Prisk, Mr Mark Wheeler, Heather Burt, Lorely Halfon, Robert Pugh, John White, Chris Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen Raab, Mr Dominic Whittaker, Craig Cable, rh Vince Hancock, Mr Mike Randall, rh Sir John Whittingdale, Mr John Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg Reckless, Mark Wiggin, Bill Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca Reevell, Simon Williams, Roger Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Cash, Mr William Harvey, Sir Nick Robertson, Mr Laurence Williamson, Gavin Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Rosindell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Chope, Mr Christopher Hayes, rh Mr John Rudd, Amber Wilson, Mr Rob Clappison, Mr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Ruffley, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Clark, rh Greg Hemming, John Russell, Sir Bob Wright, Jeremy Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Rutley, David Wright, Simon Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles Sanders, Mr Adrian Young, rh Sir George Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Sandys, Laura Zahawi, Nadhim Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Scott, Mr Lee Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Selous, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Shapps, rh Grant Mark Hunter and Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip Sharma, Alok Claire Perry Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Davey, rh Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Question accordingly negatived. Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon That the proposed words be there added. Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 227. Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick 963 National Minimum Wage15 JANUARY 2014 National Minimum Wage 964

Jackson, Mr Stewart Penning, Mike White, Chris Wilson, Mr Rob James, Margot Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Wollaston, Dr Sarah Javid, Sajid Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Jeremy Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Willetts, rh Mr David Young, rh Sir George Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Roger Jones, rh Mr David Pugh, John Williams, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Mr Marcus Raab, Mr Dominic Williamson, Gavin Claire Perry and Kawczynski, Daniel Randall, rh Sir John Willott, Jenny Mr Sam Gyimah Kelly, Chris Reckless, Mark Kirby, Simon Redwood, rh Mr John NOES Knight, rh Sir Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Kwarteng, Kwasi Reevell, Simon Abbott, Ms Diane Dugher, Michael Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Abrahams, Debbie Eagle, Ms Angela Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Eagle, Maria Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Elliott, Julie Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Alexander, Heidi Ellman, Mrs Louise Leadsom, Andrea Ruffley, Mr David Ali, Rushanara Engel, Natascha Lee, Jessica Russell, Sir Bob Allen, Mr Graham Esterson, Bill Lee, Dr Phillip Rutley, David Anderson, Mr David Evans, Chris Lefroy, Jeremy Sanders, Mr Adrian Ashworth, Jonathan Farrelly, Paul Leigh, Sir Edward Sandys, Laura Bailey, Mr Adrian Field, rh Mr Frank Leslie, Charlotte Scott, Mr Lee Bain, Mr William Fitzpatrick, Jim Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Selous, Andrew Balls, rh Ed Flello, Robert Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Barron, rh Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Lidington, rh Mr David Sharma, Alok Bayley, Hugh Flynn, Paul Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Beckett, rh Margaret Francis, Dr Hywel Lloyd, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Begg, Dame Anne Gapes, Mike Lord, Jonathan Skidmore, Chris Benn, rh Hilary Gardiner, Barry Loughton, Tim Smith, Chloe Benton, Mr Joe Gilmore, Sheila Luff, Sir Peter Smith, Henry Berger, Luciana Glass, Pat Lumley, Karen Smith, Julian Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Sir Robert Blackman-Woods, Roberta Godsiff, Mr Roger Maude, rh Mr Francis Soames, rh Nicholas Blomfield, Paul Goodman, Helen Maynard, Paul Spencer, Mr Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Greatrex, Tom McCartney, Jason Stanley, rh Sir John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Green, Kate McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Brennan, Kevin Greenwood, Lilian McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Iain Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Rory Bryant, Chris Hain, rh Mr Peter McVey, Esther Streeter, Mr Gary Buck, Ms Karen Hamilton, Fabian Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Burden, Richard Hanson, rh Mr David Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mills, Nigel Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Campbell, Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Healey, rh John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swales, Ian Caton, Martin Hendrick, Mark Moore, rh Michael Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clark, Katy Heyes, David Mordaunt, Penny Swire, rh Mr Hugo Coaker, Vernon Hillier, Meg Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Ann Hilling, Julie Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Connarty, Michael Hodge, rh Margaret Morris, James Thornton, Mike Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Mosley, Stephen Thurso, John Cooper, rh Yvette Hosie, Stewart Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Corbyn, Jeremy Howarth, rh Mr George Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin Crausby, Mr David Hunt, Tristram Mundell, rh David Tredinnick, David Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth Creasy, Stella Jackson, Glenda Murray, Sheryll Turner, Mr Andrew Cruddas, Jon Jamieson, Cathy Neill, Robert Tyrie, Mr Andrew Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Newmark, Mr Brooks Uppal, Paul Cunningham, Alex Johnson, rh Alan Newton, Sarah Vara, Mr Shailesh Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, Diana Nokes, Caroline Vickers, Martin Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham Nuttall, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin David, Wayne Jones, Susan Elan Ollerenshaw, Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Davies, Geraint Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Opperman, Guy Ward, Mr David De Piero, Gloria Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Watkinson, Dame Angela Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Paice, rh Sir James Weatherley, Mike Docherty, Thomas Kendall, Liz Parish, Neil Webb, Steve Doran, Mr Frank Khan, rh Sadiq Patel, Priti Wharton, James Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Dromey, Jack Lavery, Ian 965 National Minimum Wage 15 JANUARY 2014 966

Lazarowicz, Mark Reed, Mr Steve Woodcock, John Tellers for the Noes: Leslie, Chris Reeves, Rachel Wright, David Tom Blenkinsop and Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reynolds, Emma Wright, Mr Iain Mr David Hamilton Lewis, Mr Ivan Reynolds, Jonathan Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Riordan, Mrs Linda Question accordingly agreed to. Lucas, Caroline Robertson, John Lucas, Ian Rotheram, Steve The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Roy, Mr Frank amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Mactaggart, Fiona Roy, Lindsay Mahmood, Mr Khalid Ruane, Chris Resolved, Mahmood, Shabana Ruddock, rh Dame That this House notes that since 2010, the Government has Malhotra, Seema oan increased the National Minimum Wage each year, despite the Marsden, Mr Gordon Sarwar, Anas worst recession in living memory, to protect the income of the low McCabe, Steve Sawford, Andy paid and increase their wages relative to average earnings, and is McCann, Mr Michael Seabeck, Alison cutting taxes for the low paid to boost take home pay by £705 a McCarthy, Kerry Shannon, Jim year, taking 2.7 million out of income tax altogether; welcomes McClymont, Gregg Sharma, Mr Virendra increased employment under this Government, which is at its McDonagh, Siobhain Sheerman, Mr Barry highest ever level; notes that the Secretary of State for Business, McDonald, Andy Sheridan, Jim Innovation and Skills has asked the Low Pay Commission for an McDonnell, John Shuker, Gavin assessment of how it might achieve a higher National Minimum McFadden, rh Mr Pat Skinner, Mr Dennis Wage in the future without damaging employment; further notes McGovern, Alison Slaughter, Mr Andy that the Government has maintained a central enforcement body McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, rh Mr Andrew that covers all areas of the UK and ensures a consistent approach McKechin, Ann Smith, Angela and high quality service; and further notes that the Government is quadrupling fines for employers in breach of paying the National McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, Nick Minimum Wage and has already made it easier to name and McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Owen shame employers who flout the rules. Meacher, rh Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Meale, Sir Alan Stringer, Graham Mearns, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Business without Debate Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark Mitchell, Austin Thomas, Mr Gareth DELEGATED LEGISLATION Moon, Mrs Madeleine Thornberry, Emily Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Morden, Jessica Timms, rh Stephen Order No. 118(6)), Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Trickett, Jon Morris, Grahame M. Turner, Karl LEGAL AID AND ADVICE (Easington) Twigg, Derek Munn, Meg Twigg, Stephen That the draft Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) (Amendment) Murphy, rh Mr Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka (No. 2) Regulations 2013, which were laid before this House on Murphy, rh Paul Vaz, rh Keith 25 November, be approved.—(Karen Bradley.) Murray, Ian Vaz, Valerie The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Nandy, Lisa Walley, Joan Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Nash, Pamela Watson, Mr Tom Wednesday 22 January (Standing Order No. 41A). O’Donnell, Fiona Watts, Mr Dave Onwurah, Chi Weir, Mr Mike Motion made and Question put forthwith (Standing Osborne, Sandra Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Order No. 118(6)), Owen, Albert Whitehead, Dr Alan Pearce, Teresa Williams, Hywel CRIMINAL LAW Perkins, Toby Williamson, Chris Phillipson, Bridget Wilson, Phil That the draft Costs in Criminal Cases (Legal Costs) (Exceptions) Regulations 2013, which were laid before the House on 25 November, Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr David be approved.—(Karen Bradley.) Powell, Lucy Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wishart, Pete Question agreed to. Reed, Mr Jamie Wood, Mike 967 15 JANUARY 2014 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) 968

Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) the risk was significantly increased by lower registered nurse to patient ratios. I met the Minister on 14 May, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House after which I submitted a substantial file of evidence to do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) back up the argument in favour of improving those 7.22 pm ratios. On 16 July, Professor Bruce Keogh published his Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am delighted to have study on 14 hospitals. Certainly one of its key themes secured this important debate on the staffing of acute was the inadequate registered nurse to patient ratios on hospital wards, on which I know the Under-Secretary wards, which caused concern within those hospitals, of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for and that has been debated on many occasions. On Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter)—I am 16 August, Professor Don Berwick published a very pleased to see him in his place—is aware I have been significant report on patient safety, from which the campaigning on for a number of years. same theme arose that we cannot achieve safe patient The pressures on acute hospitals have, without question, outcomes if we do not have adequate safe staffing intensified over the past couple of decades. There are levels. now a third fewer general and acute hospital beds than On 9 October, the Safe Staffing Alliance held a there were 25 years ago. The past decade alone has seen reception, which I was pleased to host, and I tabled a 37% increase in emergency admissions. An increasing early-day motion 643 on safe staffing on 29 October. number of older patients are being admitted to hospital: The Government have since responded, with the National 65% of admissions are of people over the age of the 65. Quality Board—headed by the chief nursing officer, These patients are more likely to present more complex Jane Cummings—publishing a “How to” guide on using and multiple comorbidities, and the increased demand the right tools to establish safe staffing levels on hospital on acute care and the increased complexity of patients’ wards. On 19 November, the Government responded to needs will have a knock-on effect, including placing the Francis report, as did the Health Committee on the greater demand on hospital resources and increasing same date, and announced further initiatives to address pressure on registered nurses, doctors and other health the issues, which I will come on to in a moment. care professionals. It will also, of course, have an effect on patient care itself. The question is how bad the problem is now, when there is so much attention on it. Interestingly, a report I intend to concentrate on the staffing levels of registered in the Nursing Times this week stated: nurses. Although much of the health debate has become “Serious concerns over staffing levels and patient safety were obsessed with changing and tweaking management tools raised last week at four hospitals in different parts of the country” for commissioners—for example, by incentivising health systems with payment by results and more sophisticated as a result of Care Quality Commission reports. A tariffs, creating new pathways of care and, as far as the number of CQC reports in recent years have highlighted previous Government were concerned, wasting billions inadequate staffing levels. on fancy information technology systems—front-line Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): One of those CQC nurses are often run ragged and overstretched on hospital reports was on Wexham Park hospital, which serves wards. part of my constituency. There have been reports of The background or history to this debate goes back pretty woeful nursing standards, particularly on acute to the case of Graham Pink, who was sacked by Stepping medical wards. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Hill hospital in Stockport in 1990 for speaking out part of the challenge is that we have too many acute about poor staffing. I raised the matter as long ago as hospitals in the 21st century to deliver the appropriate 2001 with John Hutton, now Lord Hutton, who wrote care that we would all want our constituents to receive? in response to a question from me: A reconfiguration of hospital services, with fewer acute “The work force commitments to recruit additional nurses, sites, would allow proper staffing of acute medical doctors and therapists in the NHS Plan take account of the need wards. to increase the number of staff necessary to deliver diagnosis and treatment within the agreed clinical standards set out in the National Service”.—[Official Report, 17 July 2001; Vol. 372, Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman speaks with c. 114W.] great knowledge on this subject. Of course, we have There was therefore recognition in 2001 about the need fewer acute hospitals than we used to have, but we still to increase the complement of staff within NHS hospitals. have serious staffing problems. On its own, that idea is not the answer, but it does need to be considered if we Since that time, there has been an acceleration of are to address the issue of patient safety. activity. To a certain extent, that activity was stimulated by the publication on 6 February 2013 of the Francis As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the report on report on Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, Wexham Park hospital stated that CQC inspectors found which has been debated a great deal in the House and evidence of regular short staffing on “almost all wards” elsewhere. As a member, as the Minister once was, of and a culture in which the Select Committee on Health, I know that it has “staff did not always feel they could raise concerns”. exercised our consideration on many occasions. The inspectors concluded that the trust was more focused To respond to the concerns about the arguably inadequate on “responding to…targets” than on registered nurse staffing levels in many acute hospitals, “ensuring that overall patient experiences were positive”. the Safe Staffing Alliance has been formed with members The article in the Nursing Times states: from the Royal College of Nursing, the Patients Association, “Despite a previous CQC warning in May, almost all the wards the Florence Nightingale Foundation and many other inspected were found to be regularly short staffed. Staff did not bodies. In an important launch on 12 May, it released a always feel they could raise concerns, with a number expressing statement on the risk of excess deaths, indicating that concerns about bullying and harassment, the CQC said.” 969 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) 970

The article states that there were similar problems at patient outcomes. The National Institute for Health Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and Clinical Excellence has been commissioned to give and that, last Wednesday, guidance on acute ward nurse staffing by July and it will “Belfast Health and Social Care Trust declared a ‘major incident’ look at validating methodologies. I have spoken to at its Royal Victoria Hospital due to a backlog of A&Epatients. Professor Gill Leng of NICE and it is clear that it will At one stage, 42 people were waiting on trolleys.” be conducted on a robust evidential basis. A hospital porter, Pat Neeson, is quoted by the BBC as saying that he was The Berwick report, the Nursing and Care Quality “fed up watching our nurses cry” Forum and the Council of Deans have all publicly endorsed never having more than eight patients per as a result of long-standing A and E pressures. There registered nurse on acute wards, based on current known are significant pressures in many hospitals. Although evidence. A number of trusts are now displaying nurse those examples have been in the press this week, we all staffing on boards at ward level, with some trying to know that the problem is not exclusive to those hospitals. ensure that they take account of the “never more than This is also a political issue. The question is whether eight” standard. A lot of action is being taken to the reports implicate uncaring nurses or whether the address this issue. problem is that there are not enough nurses on hospital wards. The Prime Minister has become involved in this As well as avoiding excess deaths, the issue needs to issue through his presentation of the Francis report to be addressed by health care economists, too. Recent the House last year and what he has said elsewhere. On evaluations in Perth, Australia, which has mandated 6 January 2012, he said: levels of safe staffing, show that investment has more “If we want dignity and respect, we need to focus on nurses than paid for itself in reductions in patient harm, fewer and the care they deliver. Somewhere in the last decade the health bedsores, less complications and infections, and fewer system has conspired to undermine one of this country’s greatest falls. California, which has the same arrangement, has professions.” shown a 25% reduction in readmissions. These are Last year, in the light of the Francis report, the Government important benefits, which health economists need to proposed that all trainee nurses should have one year’s look at when they address this issue. experience as a health care assistant before they become fully qualified. The Prime Minister said: Jane Cummings, the chief nursing officer, has looked at the issue and I will read a key quote from her in the “We have said in the light of that report that nurses should spend some time when they are training as healthcare assistants in National Quality Board report: the hospital really making sure that they are focused on the caring “There has been much debate as to whether there should be and the quality and some of the quite mundane tasks that are defined staffing ratios in the NHS. My view is that this misses the absolutely vital to get right in hospital”. point—we want the right staff, with the right skills, in the right The question is whether the problem is the attitude of place at the right time. There is no single ratio or formula that can nurses or nursing numbers. calculate the answers to such complex questions. The right answer The Safe Staffing Alliance suggests that there are will differ across and within organisations, and reaching it requires the use of evidence, evidence based tools, the exercise of professional excess deaths as a result of there being insufficient judgement and a truly multi-professional approach. Above all, it nurses. Some people ask how many excess deaths there requires openness and transparency, within organisations and are. Given the statistics and methodologies that are with patients and the public.” available, academic statisticians would blanch at suggesting what the figure might be. I have been cautioned by My concern about this kind of management babble, House of Commons statisticians and the academics and those who possess the presentational skills to get who back up the Safe Staffing Alliance about ever away with it, is that it throws a warm comfort blanket doing so. It is suggested that there were at least 20 excess around the issue and creates a cloud of obfuscation. We deaths per annum in hospitals with unsafe average need some of the hard lines proposed by the Safe staffing. The RN4CAST survey of 32 English hospitals, Staffing Alliance, and we need fundamental standards including more than 400 wards, showed that 43% had below which no service should fall. registered a nurse staffing ratio of more than 1:8. I have given the Minister advance notice of my questions. There are about 240 acute hospitals. I have been Does he accept that there are still a significant number heavily cautioned by the House of Commons Library of hospital settings where the number of registered and other statisticians not to extrapolate a figure, and nurses on duty are insufficient to ensure patient safety, I appreciate that I am doing what academic statisticians professional standards and morale among many in the would never do, but I am going to step off the tightrope nursing profession? Does he agree that the Safe Staffing of academic equivocation and be a brazen politician Alliance proposal for a fundamental standard of never and suggest only an indicative figure. While surrounded less than one registered nurse to eight patients would be by so much caution and so many caveats—I do not a useful tool for inspections and act as a benchmark for have time to list them all—the number of excess deaths management to use, alongside other safe staffing tools? will be higher than zero and much lower than the Does he agree that the CQC should in future concentrate approximately 248,000 patients who die each year in more on using safe staffing tools and clear measurements acute and community hospitals. Taking those statistics of how many registered nurses are on a ward? Does he together, the indicative figure would be 4,000 excess agree that as part of future work force planning, hospital deaths in acute hospitals in England. Clearly, this issue managers should not conflate or blur the distinction needs to be seriously addressed. between registered nurses and advanced care practitioners? All the review reports last year showed that nurse Finally, without pre-empting NICE’s conclusions this staffing was a critical issue to prevent poor care, and summer, what can Ministers do to guarantee that hospital they absolutely corroborate the research findings of the boards follow, or at least apply, its proposed guidance? I link between registered nurse staffing and quality of look forward to his response. 971 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) 972

7.40 pm necessarily about having one-on-one nursing; it is also about ensuring that all the other additional supports The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and other parts of the multidisciplinary team are in (Dr Daniel Poulter): I pay tribute to the dedication and place to deliver high-quality care. That is at the heart of commitment to safe staffing and minimum staffing what the Government are trying to do. I believe that the levels that my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives CQC, looking not just at staffing levels but at wider (Andrew George) has shown over the last year. I have determinants—for example, using the NHS safety much enjoyed our many conversations about the matter, thermometer, which looks at the issues my hon. Friend and although he understands that we have different raised about bedsores—and putting together a whole views about the right thing to do, both he and we picture of what the care at a trust is like, is well placed are coming from the right position, which is about to make judgments. Part of the CQC’s inspection regime ensuring that we properly respond to the scandals exposed entails full clinical involvement, so it has become more as a result of the Francis inquiry into Mid Staffs and of a peer-review process about what “good” looks like ensuring we support all staff and hospitals to look after from one hospital to another—an important improvement patients. in the quality of the inspection regime, which enables it to weigh up staffing issues. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Given that one of the problems at Stafford hospital in the mid-2000s was My hon. Friend will be aware that we are going to a sharp reduction in the number of nurses in order to support the CQC and provide greater transparency cut costs, will my hon. Friend and the Department of throughout the health system—in regard to staffing Health be looking at cases where trusts substantially levels, by ensuring that they are published in future. reduce the number of nurses at one point to see whether Trust boards will have a requirement specifically to look that constitutes a risk to safety? at their staffing levels and to address problems. We shall not simply wait for the CQC to react to staffing issues Dr Poulter: As I will come on to say, if my hon. as part of its wider inspection regime; there will be a Friend will bear with me, it is now a matter for the CQC requirement on trust boards to look at them. On Christmas to inspect trusts on issues such as quality of patient care day, I visited my local trust and found that staffing and safety. I will outline those measures later in response levels were discussed on a daily basis, in direct response to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives. to improvements following the Francis inquiry. I believe It is important that we support staff as much as the same thing is taking place in a number of hospital possible when they raise concerns, whether about minimum trusts throughout the country. staffing levels or other quality-of-care issues—this was Let me deal with my hon. Friend’s specific questions. the point just raised by my hon. Friend the Member for He asked whether there were a significant number of Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy)—and to do that we are facilitating hospital settings in which the number of registered and enhancing a duty of candour on trusts to ensure a nurses on duty was insufficient to ensure patient safety, more candid and open approach and to ensure that staff professional standards and morale among many in the who have concerns are better supported and are better nursing profession. Our patients, their families and the able to raise them. public need to be assured that, wherever they are cared Turning specifically to the matters at hand, superficially for and treated, there is a strong and positive patient the principle of minimum staffing ratios sounds seductive, safety culture, led from the top and embedded in every but when it comes down to it, we will see that they do organisation. not guarantee safe staffing or care. For those reasons, the Government do not support them. The principle of There can be cases where hospitals are under-staffed good care is about having the right staff in the right and there is an impact on the quality of care provided, place at the right time. As we will all be aware, the needs but these cases need to be addressed from a whole-care of patients can change not just daily, but hourly—a perspective, in which staffing numbers form just one patient can rapidly deteriorate—and just having ticked element of a broader safety assessment. It is right that a minimum-staffing box does not mean that the right clinicians and trust boards have the freedom to agree care is necessarily being applied. The lesson to learn their own staff profiles, which should not be dictated from Mid Staffs is that we followed the bureaucratic from Whitehall or by some blanket tick-box approach tick-box approach and that led to failings in care, and saying “You have met the minimum staffing number; that just ticking boxes saying we have done something, you are therefore delivering good care”. We know from however seductive or good it might sound, does not what happened at Mid Staffs that that is not the case. necessarily mean that patients are being treated right. We must do everything we can to support good decisions That is a matter of clinical circumstances and the made in the best interest of patients on the ground. This clinical judgment of staff. approach will give trusts the flexibility to respond swiftly to changes in patient demand or to meet the urgent needs of patients who have deteriorated, ensuring that Andrew George: I am well aware of the Minister’s safety and quality care is available. line, but if we followed its logic to its conclusion, we would withdraw minimum staffing levels from paediatric We need to make sure that patient safety is a constant wards, intensive care and, in other sectors, child care, concern to each and every NHS trust and NHS employee, which is a topic that has been hotly debated politically ensuring that risks to patient safety are always acted on as well. as soon as they are identified, whether it relates to a “never event” or to the number of staff on a ward at any Dr Poulter: As my hon. Friend will be aware, the time of the day or night. We expect trust boards to sign CQC inspection regime inspects all parts of hospitals. off and publish information on staffing levels at least Good care in a cardiac or intensive care unit is not every six months to demonstrate that they are using 973 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) 974 evidence-based tools to calculate their staffing levels must ensure that at all times there are sufficient numbers and provide assurance on the impact on quality of care of suitably qualified, skilled and experienced staff. In and patient experience. time, the guidance that we are developing on safe staffing My hon. Friend asked whether the Safe Staffing will help providers to understand how to calculate Alliance proposal for a fundamental standard of no less reference staffing levels. It will also be used by the CQC than one registered nurse to eight patients would be a when it assesses whether the right number of staff are useful tool for inspection, surveillance and as a benchmark employed to provide safe patient care. for management to use alongside other safe staffing My hon. Friend asked whether I agreed that in future tools. I hope he will understand that no single dimension the CQC should concentrate more on using safe staffing and no single tool can ensure patient safety and that tools and clear measurements, and on how many registered setting minimum staffing levels does not necessarily nurses were on a ward. I do not want to dictate from ensure that patients get the best possible care. Patient Whitehall—indeed, I am sure that none of us do—the safety is not just about safe staffing; it is about listening details of what the CQC will look for; it is important for to patients, assessing their needs and staff taking action the CQC to take a flexible approach to its inspections, where there are concerns. The number of staff—not just and to be prepared to pursue different avenues depending nurses, but doctors, physiotherapists, health care assistants on what it finds. What we can all agree on is that the and all other important members of a multidisciplinary provision of enough trained and skilled staff is vital to team—needed to look after patients in a cardiac intensive the delivery of acceptable care, and that CQC inspections care unit will differ from the numbers and skill mix should continue to consider staffing levels. required in a rehabilitation setting or another care I must end my speech shortly, so I will write to my setting—and it will differ from day to day, ward by ward hon. Friend about the other points that he raised. I and sometimes even from hour to hour, depending on know that we are approaching this issue from the same the care needs of patients. position, and that all of us care about supporting staff Ticking boxes on minimum staffing levels does not and delivering high-quality care. However, I hope my equate to good care. As the Berwick review made clear, hon. Friend will agree that safe staffing levels could ticking boxes in relation to minimum staffing levels have perverse consequences, that they are only a part of does not equate to good care. Patients must be assessed the picture when it comes to delivering good care, and individually, and the level of care required to ensure that it is for the CQC to ensure that it takes an accurate their safety must be determined by front-line staff locally, and holistic view when carrying out its inspections to supported in their decision-making by a range of factors ensure that high-quality patient care is provided in the that determine safe care. That should include staffing future. levels, but they are not the only issue: the Berwick Question put and agreed to. review made that clear as well. The Care Quality Commission also considers staffing levels in its inspections of registered providers, including 7.51 pm acute hospitals. All providers registered with the CQC House adjourned.

275WH 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 276WH of Iraq The world’s oldest continuously inhabited settlement, it Westminster Hall is set to be a huge tourist attraction. Again, the welcome was warm and friendly. Wednesday 15 January 2014 I also saw first hand that the Kurds are looking west. English is their second language, and they speak it very [SANDRA OSBORNE in the Chair] well indeed. Two universities operate in English and most of the Kurds who go overseas for their studies and Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region postgraduate courses choose to come to the United of Iraq Kingdom. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting The Kurdistan of two decades ago lived a hand-to-mouth be now adjourned.—(Mr Gyimah.) existence. Today’s Kurdistan is becoming a wealthy and cosmopolitan society, with an active civil society; but it 9.30 am is still in a transition phase from genocide, dictatorship Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure and its own civil war. It has many bright community to serve under your chairmanship this morning, leaders and public servants—we met many of them, Mrs Osborne. and they were impressive people—but the practice of politics, administration and civil society is still fairly Twenty years ago, I was an officer in the Royal Air new to the region, and the Kurds are having to learn Force, and I helped to police the no-fly zone over the new skills. They seek to soak up as much experience, Kurdistan region of Iraq. Operation Warden operated advice and expertise as they can from various bodies, from Incirlik airbase in Turkey. Aircraft from the United including the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. Kingdom, the United States, France and Turkey prevented Saddam Hussein from waging his war against Iraq’s There is a deepening détente with Turkey. We have to 5 million Kurds. During my tour, I joined coalition admit that that is based on hard-headed self-interest: officers from the military co-ordination centre in Zakho, the export of Kurdistan’s newly explored and vast reserves northern Iraq. We toured Kurdish villages in that of oil and gas has overcome decades of hostility and spectacularly beautiful part of the world. We met village conflict. That trade is set to be a major gain for Turkey, elders, and spread the word that the aircraft flying with a potentially positive impact on resolving the above them were friends, not foes. Of course, we were conflict with Turkish Kurds—something that is important given a very warm welcome. for the region—and could also have great positives for European and British energy security, which we have The no-fly zone saved lives and has meant that Iraq’s been discussing so much in the House in recent months. 5 million Kurds have experienced relative stability and peace since the end of the 1991 Gulf war, but the Kurds The Kurds want British trade and investment because had suffered abysmally at the hands of Saddam Hussein, they value our skills and the quality of our goods and who carried out genocide against them, most notoriously services, but until now we have been too slow to respond. at Halabja in 1988. That slaughter of 5,000 men, women Many Members here today have seen the Kurdish success and children remains the worst single incident of the story for themselves at first hand, and we talk about it use of chemical weapons against civilians. Saddam Hussein regularly. Small and large companies, universities and destroyed the Kurds’ agricultural base, razed thousands health bodies should go over to the region and get of villages and rounded up the Kurds into concentration stuck in. camps; it is estimated that about 200,000 people were We have a number of asks of the Minister based on killed. increasing such close co-operation. There should be When Saddam Hussein’s forces were defeated in Kuwait direct flights from the United Kingdom to the Kurdistan in 1991, the Kurds rose up, but they were set to be region. When we went there last year, we had to fly with annihilated. One million people fled to the mountains—at Austrian Airlines via Vienna, which ended up taking that point, they called the mountains their only friends—and seven or eight hours. Direct flights would help massively. the sight of people freezing to death during the winter We also need a British trade envoy to the region. It months prompted the then Prime Minister of the United would be great if our leaders visited Kurdistan, and Kingdom, John Major, to work incredibly hard to even better if we could invite their leaders to come here. initiate a no-fly zone with other allied forces. It saved It is important that we are bolder and more positive in the Kurds, and enabled them to rebuild their economy recognising who our friends are, and we have a great and society into what it is today: a dynamic, prosperous, opportunity to make new friends in the Kurdistan region. pluralistic, tolerant and democratic part of a federal Having been helped themselves, the Iraqi Kurds are Iraq. now helping others. On my trip there in the summer, we Britain has a mixed historical record in Kurdistan, spent an emotional day at the Domiz refugee camp near but when I returned there recently I was left in no doubt the Iraq-Syria border. At that stage—I have no doubt about the deep affection and respect felt there for the that the figure has since grown—some 130,000 Syrian British and for the United Kingdom. I was back in the Kurds had fled the fighting in Syria. I spoke with many region last summer as a guest of the Kurdistan Regional refugees, including many children who are continuing Government, via the all-party group on the Kurdistan their education in specially constructed schools. The region in Iraq—it is good to see colleagues from that Kurdistan Regional Government deserve praise for funding group here this morning. I saw at first hand the peaceful and arranging that, after the crisis the Kurds went and increasingly prosperous city of Erbil and its surrounding through two decades ago. areas, a fairly secular region in which Christians, Jews That ability to help others now is a far cry from the and Muslims live side by side—we even met a local poverty and despair I saw on the border with Turkey bishop. Over 2 million tourists visited the region last year. 20 years ago. It has been a remarkable journey from The Erbil citadel, 6,000 years old, is a fantastic building. genocide to prosperity. I urge the Minister to help 277WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 278WH of Iraq of Iraq [Jason McCartney] During the visit in November 2013, we went to the Domiz refugee camp near Dohuk, as did my hon. efforts to achieve greatly increased co-operation with Friend the Member for Colne Valley in the summer. the Kurds, not just for our sake but for theirs, and I have The impact on hon. Members who were visiting for the five specific requests to put to him. first time, and on me, was such that I want to spend a First, I suggest that the UK Government invite the little longer talking about the situation there. It is the President and Prime Minister of the Kurdistan region new home, working place and school for 75,000 refugees on an official visit to London to meet the Prime Minister from the Syrian conflict, of which 13,000 are children. and the Foreign Secretary. Secondly, I suggest that the It is just one of 13 refugee camps in the Kurdistan British Government consider the possibility of a visit region and the largest of the four in the Dohuk province. by the Foreign Secretary to the Kurdistan region. I have In a prominent location near the camp entrance is the no doubt that he would receive a very warm welcome. child protection unit, which is funded by the UK Thirdly, at a time when the Government are stressing Government and run by UNICEF. With my previous the importance of overseas exports and finding new working experience of child protection, I was pleased markets, I urge them to appoint a UK trade envoy to that we spent considerable time addressing the issue of the Kurdistan region. I saw an area that is becoming children and their welfare. increasingly prosperous, and met the Erbil chamber of The Kurdistan region has been at pains to welcome commerce where many deals were being done. There are Syrian refugees, and Dohuk’s governor told me that great opportunities for British companies and business another 75,000 refugees are living in the province among people, and having a UK trade envoy would be helpful. the host community. Two months ago, there were Fourthly, we would like a meeting with the Home 150,000 refugees, up from the number that my hon. Office to discuss the visa regime and how to remove the Friend the Member for Colne Valley mentioned. Many obstacles to increased cultural and commercial activities of the refugees living in the region have family connections with Kurdistan. I referred to students who are choosing in the area, and highly-qualified refugees have found the United Kingdom for their university and postgraduate jobs and been able to move their families into permanent studies, and we should ensure that they are encouraged accommodation within the community. The United to come to our wonderful universities, including my Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has described local Huddersfield university, which has students from that hospitality and support as extraordinary.The Kurdistan 130 nations. Fifthly, with Holocaust memorial day coming region has supplied much of the finance itself, which is up, I urge the Government to recognise formally the a huge burden for a region that is still developing its genocide against the Kurds and to take a full part in services. For example, many of the local Kurdish schools marking the annual Anfal day on 14 April. have double shifts to accommodate all the children who want to attend. The region is not in a good place I will conclude my comments because other hon. in terms of being able to welcome refugees, but it is Members who have experienced the Kurdistan region opening its arms to those in desperate need. first hand have some positive and well-informed input to make to the debate. The Iraqi Kurds are back from I want to emphasise the importance of the Government the brink and making real and positive progress. They remembering that the Kurdistan region of Iraq is hosting are helping their neighbours, and it is important that refugees. In his statement to the House on Monday, the the United Kingdom does not neglect that renaissance Foreign Secretary referred to refugees in Jordan, Turkey in the Kurdistan region. and Lebanon, but did not mention Iraq; refugees are also flooding over that border and being welcomed 9.42 am there. The Government should recognise that. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I refer to I pay tribute to the Government, who have committed my entries in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. £500 million of their aid budget to Syrian refugees. The I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason Foreign Secretary made it clear that further funds will McCartney), who in this debate is my hon. Friend, as be made available, and I fear that that will be necessary well as being my colleague on the all-party group on the well before the end of the conflict. As the fighting in Kurdistan region in Iraq, which I have the honour to Syria continues, we must ensure that the people in the co-chair with the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon refugee camps are not forgotten. (Nadhim Zahawi), who is also my hon. Friend in this During our visit, I met representatives of Syrian debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kurdish groups who are members of the Syrian Opposition Colne Valley on securing the debate. It is good that we coalition. The majority of Kurdish groups oppose the have been able to secure a second debate on the Kurdistan Assad regime, and the representatives we met were clear region in less than a year, and a sign of the area’s that they wanted the British people and Government to growing potential. have a better understanding of the situation in relation In November, together with some hon. Members to the Syrian Kurdish Opposition. They stressed that here, I visited the Kurdistan region as part of a delegation the organised Opposition in Syria is different from the from the all-party group, and we saw some of the issues al-Qaeda groups that grab the headlines. Those groups affecting the area. The contrast between that visit, were asking for greater representation in the Geneva II which was my sixth, and my first visit four years ago talks, and I urge the Foreign Secretary to help to was astonishing and heartening. During my first few accommodate that. visits, it was easy to feel like a pioneer, as there were few Turning to economic development and relationships western faces about, but today there is a modern airport with the UK, I had the opportunity to visit the Taq Taq terminal and several new hotels, each with lobbies full oilfield, run by the Taq Taq Operating Company and of local and western business people discussing deals the Turkish-British oil company Genel Energy. The and developments. It is truly a transformation. oilfield is a large local employer, employing 400 people 279WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 280WH of Iraq of Iraq from local villages. I understand that the first oil exported likely to have long-term benefits. The university of to Turkey will be sold by the end of this month, although Huddersfield, which has already had a mention this all of us in contact with the region know that there is morning, has even formed an alumni association in some controversy about that. I will not go into that Kurdistan, with more than 70 former students and their today, but the Kurdistan region has a target of producing families attending the recent launch. We know that 2 million barrels of oil per day by the end of 2019. many students who have spent time in the UK carry Unlike in many post-conflict situations, this region of positive attitudes for the rest of their lives, which can Iraq is not having to rely on international aid to rebuild lead to ongoing relationships in a wide range of walks its economy. Instead, it is developing the oilfields to of life, including business, academia, and even politics. ensure a strong source of revenue for decades and The willingness of the people of the region to help generations to come. That foresight and enterprise should and support people from other areas of Iraq who have be applauded. It was good to meet British citizens faced persecution, particularly the Christian community, working in the oil industry and clearly enjoying working has been impressive. They have again shown their good in Kurdistan with local people. will in providing help to the refugees from Syria. They The region is growing quickly, and the regional are a beacon in the middle east of a stable, democratic Government have been strengthening their relationship and welcoming people and Administration. It is time with Turkey. Not long ago, 200,000 troops were on the for more MPs and Ministers to take seriously our border of Turkey, but 200,000 people from Turkey now relationships with the Kurdistan region, and it would be work in the region. That stability provides a great good to see the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, opportunity to strengthen the commercial and cultural for example, doing an investigation into the prospects links between the UK and the Kurdistan region. for the Kurdistan region of Iraq and the issues facing the Kurds across Syria, Turkey and Iran; that is just a As my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley suggestion. I am sure that other hon. Members will said, the all-party parliamentary group has long supported cover security, but we stress the importance of the improved trade links between the UK and Kurdistan. Government providing non-lethal security equipment Since we began lobbying on the issue of visas, the to help the KRG. The UK must do all that it can to capacity to receive applications for visas and to take support the ongoing work of the KRG to develop the biometrics in Erbil has dramatically increased, which resources in the area and the skills and enterprise of the we are pleased to see. However, we know, having spoken people. earlier this month to the consul general from Erbil, that more could be done, if the capacity were there. I urge the Government to look again at the issue and consider 9.54 am providing even more capability. As has been said, our Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is an honour to all-party group would like to have a further meeting serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. I congratulate with the Home Office to explore what more can be my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason done. McCartney) on initiating the debate. He displayed We have long campaigned, as has also been mentioned, extraordinary knowledge, and we respect his service in on the importance of direct flights from Kurdistan to the armed forces. I am pleased to follow the hon. the UK. It is good to note that progress is being made Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), whom I with the recent visit by officials to Erbil. However, it call my hon. Friend; I hope she will not mind me saying would be remiss of me not to press the Minister further that she represents the liberal interventionist wing in on maintaining the pressure for a positive outcome as her party—something I strongly support. soon as possible. The UK is the country of choice for My interests are on the Register of Members’ Financial trade for many in Kurdistan, and we should do all we Interests: I am vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary can to facilitate those contacts. Compared with other group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq and chairman of European countries, there is a lack of ministerial support the Kurdish genocide task force. I am privileged to have from the UK to British companies in Kurdistan. Trade been to Kurdistan a significant number of times over and Industry Ministers in Italy, Germany and other the past few years, and every time I have been, I have countries tend to visit Kurdistan, often with big trade seen the region go from strength to strength. Until the missions, and they are all well received by the Kurdistan 1990s, Kurdistan faced constant threats to its very Regional Government. Although it was a great pleasure, existence through war, internal unrest and genocide, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford- and yet incredibly, it is now a progressive, democratic on-Avon, to lead a trade delegation as a Back-Bench Muslim nation, where the rule of law is well established. Member of the UK Parliament in 2010, so much more For Kurdistan, freedom is not only about elections, but could be done if Ministers were to go out with trade about being a place where women have equality, all delegations and the companies that really want to do religions are respected, property rights are manifest, trade in Kurdistan, to make those contacts. It is clear and where a free press is unshackled. It is early days, that the countries that are giving that priority are benefiting, and of course there are problems, but the direction is through positive contacts with their companies, and positive. through gaining contracts. Across the Kurdistan region, business is flourishing, Similarly, it is good to see that the UK remains the as has been described, and people are keen on British country of choice for the majority of students who are and foreign investment. Privatisation continues apace funded by the Kurdistan Regional Government on and huge property complexes are being built. There are placements overseas as part of their human capacity significant oil and gas reserves, which, unusually in development programme. Many universities across the these parts, are used for the benefit of the country, not UK are welcoming students, including Sheffield Hallam salted away in corruption. As I pointed out in an university. That is a real benefit for all concerned and is early-day motion, which I tabled just before my visit to 281WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 282WH of Iraq of Iraq [Robert Halfon] The third challenge is the genocide. Inexplicably, the genocide against the Kurds, described earlier, has not the region in November with my hon. Friend the hon. been recognised internationally, causing a deep sense of Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) and grievance among the Kurds. I have said in previous the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, the KRG can debates in the House on Kurdistan that I have seen become an important ally in guaranteeing the UK’s there some of the worst places that I have ever seen in future energy security, but we must be aware of the my life. When we go to the prisons and to Halabja, we legacy of the Ba’athist regime. I know from questions see how the Kurds suffered. Major perpetrators of the tabled by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) chemical gas attacks have not been brought to justice, that there are questions and reservations about the and some are thought to live freely in Europe. Many of closeness of Crescent Petroleum to Saddam Hussein’s the companies, also from the west, that sold Saddam genocidal regime, and therefore its current status as the materials used to make chemical weapons have not operator in the Kurdistan region. That needs to be yet faced the criminal courts. In Iraq, the Ba’athist Arab examined. hatred of the Kurds remains strong in some areas, even Three significant challenges face the KRG, some of though in 2008 the Iraqi Parliament recognised the which threaten its survival as an autonomous region in genocide. Iraq, as well as all its social and economic achievements In 2013, the Netherlands courts and the House of since 1992. I shall describe each in turn. They are Commons recognised the genocide. Despite that, it terrorism, the situation in Syria, and as has been mentioned, remains incumbent on western Governments to push the recognition of the genocide. through a relevant resolution in the United Nations. Since its founding, the KRG has faced significant Recognition would mean that those responsible for war terrorism threats, mainly from Iran and al-Qaeda, but crimes could appear before the international court and there have been very few attacks, thanks to tight security. compensation and reparation would be given to the Similar to what people see when visiting the state of KRG. The Kurds are a nation that does not live in the Israel, outside every major building, there are guards past, but learns from the past. Recognition would help checking for suicide bombers and armed checkpoints to heal the wounds from many years. are on all the major roads. Sadly last September, one Following last year’s debate, the former Minister for day after the results of the fourth democratic elections the middle east, my right hon. Friend the Member for in the region, there were two linked suicide bomb attacks North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), said: in Erbil, one on the Interior Ministry and the other on “I am greatly sympathetic to the motion. The Government do the next-door security directorate. I visited the site with not in any way oppose it and I have no doubt that Parliament will my hon. Friends. Seven security guards died, with more respond to the views expressed in the motion by my hon. Friend”— injured. The atrocity was linked to al-Qaeda, which is that was our hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on- thought to control vast swathes of Mosul, an Iraqi Avon— province next to Kurdistan where a strong Salafist “I have listened carefully, with whatever compassion I may possess, movement has been established. On visiting the site of to the case that has been made. I do not doubt that the Foreign the attack, one Minister warned that if action was not Secretary will read the debate with exactly the same sense. I am taken, Mosul could become a second Afghanistan in sure the Government will find the vote of Parliament helpful one year, with significant implications not only for when further representations are made, as they will be.”—[Official Kurdistan, but for the whole of Iraq. The British Report, 28 February 2013; Vol. 559, c. 562-63.] Government should take that seriously. I believe that our country has made a significant step Secondly, there is Syria. The unstable situation in towards recognition of the genocide of the Kurds and I Syria is a threat to the KRG’s security and stability. It is urge the new Minister in that post to carry that forward. thought that the terrorism I have described is being I said at the beginning that western intervention in aided and abetted by terrorists passing through Syria, Iraq saved a nation from being exterminated, but that is trained by al-Qaeda and funded in part from Saudi not enough. The free world has a real chance of a new, Arabia, Somalia and Sudan. In addition to the exploitation prosperous, democratic and forward-looking Muslim of the Syrian crisis by extreme Islamists, large numbers nation forging ahead. The UK can and must assist the of refugees are seeking safety in Kurdistan. Many of Kurdistan Regional Government in reinforcing their the refugees accepted by Kurdistan are Syrian Kurds, democratic institutions and fulfilling their potential. In who represent 9%—1.9 million—of the Syrian population. the short to medium term, we should enter negotiations During my recent trip to the KRG, I, like the hon. with the KRG about the supply of non-lethal security Member for Sheffield, Heeley, visited the Domiz camp, equipment to be used in the fight against terrorism. just 40 miles from the Syrian border, where there were Kurdistan and the geopolitical challenges that it faces 75,000 refugees, including 15,000 children. The Kurds, because of the instability in Syria should be considered having experienced centuries of persecution, have welcomed in any solution that the Government put on the table at the refugees and assisted them by providing residence the Geneva talks. permits and work opportunities. Nevertheless, the number In the long term, our efforts should focus on of refugees, already at 250,000, is due to increase and strengthening civil society and the people’s participation that will inevitably put the KRG’s society under strain. in political life. There are already two organisation that In addition to the pragmatic challenges of hosting such run projects in Kurdistan—the Westminster Foundation large numbers, the geopolitical consequences are also of for Democracy and the National School of Government— extreme importance. What happens if Syria breaks up but much more can be done. As has been suggested, post-Assad? Does the Kurdistan region extend into Members of Parliament can lead on that by visiting the Syria, with the risk of a domino effect on the millions of region, meeting our Kurdish colleagues and sharing Kurds who live in Iran and Turkey? best practice. If the Government invited the President 283WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 284WH of Iraq of Iraq and Prime Minister of the Kurdistan region on an Equally, although I recognise that the Iraqi Prime official visit, that would send a strong signal to the Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, is beginning to take a more Kurds. proactive approach towards the KRG, he could go Kurdistan has the potential to act as a beacon for the further. I hope that the national elections this year will rest of Iraq, to be a force for good in the middle east incorporate all groups in governance and further cement and to spread these values across the region. Muscular federalism. Such progress in resolving these kinds of enlightenment means more than deposing dictatorships disputes will not only enhance stability in Iraq, but and stopping mass murder. It means helping to embed enable the region to expand as a gateway to the whole the conditions necessary for those evils never to return. country for trade and investment. Natural resources are not the whole story of Kurdistan. The pipeline is just one area of progress in a region with 10.4 am a fantastic appetite to work with the United Kingdom. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): It is a As the economy grows, KRG Ministers are actively pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. encouraging British investment and expertise, creating I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne widespread opportunities for British businesses throughout Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this very important Kurdistan. On my most recent visit to the region, with a debate. I place on the record my appreciation of all the number of colleagues who are here, I met the Prime work that my co-chairman of the all-party group, the Minister of the region, Nechirvan Barzani. He reiterated hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), did his desire to engage with the UK at governmental and before my time in this place. The moment I arrived here corporate levels to help him deliver the next steps in in 2010, she made a beeline for me to ask me to join the capacity building and infrastructure development. group and, soon after, very generously asked me to Education, health and tourism are all sectors in which co-chair it with her. British expertise is flourishing and can go further. Our It will come as no surprise that I declare a significant British universities, as we have heard today, are already interest in the relations between the UK and the Kurdistan having major success. We are fortunate enough to host a region of Iraq. I draw attention to my entry in the disproportionate number of the KRG’s international Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am immensely scholarship students, who come to the UK to take proud to be the first British MP of Kurdish descent. advantage of our world-class universities. I urge the The UK provided a safe haven to my family when Iraq Minister to look into what more can be done to help was a dangerous place to be a Kurd. British universities attract such students, and to consider In the relationships between countries, the past will what the Government can do to help establish campuses always have an influence on the present, and although in the Kurdistan region. memories of British policies may cause suspicions to linger Bringing in companies is only one side of a successful in some parts of the middle east, in the Kurdistan region commercial relationship. The KRG must play its part in of Iraq the UK has generated a huge amount of good will strengthening efficiency, transparency and dispute over the past 20 years. From implementing a no-fly zone resolution. in 1991 to recognising the Kurdish genocide in this place just last year, the UK has been a long-term friend of the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I join in Kurdish people, but we cannot be complacent. As a region congratulating the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason with a burgeoning economy and even more potential, it McCartney) on securing this important debate. Does is important that we continue to foster this friendship the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) and the great benefits that it can bring to us both. agree that engagement in developing relations with Kurdistan is important not only at national level but Politically, the region is not an easy one to operate in, among the regions of the UK? Does he agree that the but Kurdistan has made great strides in cementing recent visit of KRG representatives to Northern Ireland, democracy and is gradually finding its way in the post- where they met the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Saddam era, as so eloquently described by my hon. Investment and Invest Northern Ireland, following on Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). The from the signing of a memorandum of understanding success of recent elections serves as a model for the rest between Northern Ireland and the KRG, is significant? of Iraq in the run-up to the national polls in April. Local relationships and opportunities for trade and One of the most prominent, if slightly controversial, investment co-operation are extremely important and diplomatic developments for the Kurdish region in recent should be encouraged throughout the UK. years has been its improved relationship with Turkey. As Turkey is one of the UK’s most important trading Nadhim Zahawi: The right hon. Gentleman makes an partners, the benefits of increased understanding between important point. The feedback I have had since those the two should not be underestimated. Not only has the significant visits and meetings is that the level of knowledge new-found friendship between Turkey and Kurdistan sharing, especially with Invest Northern Ireland, and brought increased stability to the region, but the recently the best practices that the Kurdish delegations observed completed oil pipeline will, in time, also help to strengthen have been incredibly important in helping them to the security and diversity of European energy supplies. design their investment packages as part of their investment Although the pipeline has been the cause of some body, which will visit the UK in the coming weeks. The tension with Baghdad, its success should not be viewed relationship with the regions of the United Kingdom is on a zero-sum basis. KRG Ministers have assured me also flourishing. that they are proactively engaging with Baghdad to In consolidating our position as the partner of choice establish a new, reliable and robust revenue-sharing to this emerging region, the enhancement of our agreement through which the whole country can benefit representation in Irbil was vital. I was pleased to hear from the Kurdish success. last week from our consul general in Irbil that real 285WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 286WH of Iraq of Iraq [Nadhim Zahawi] When the PUK suffered a setback in recent parliamentary elections in Kurdistan, its supporters did not take to the progress is being made in securing our new consulate. streets or challenge the results. They did the traditional We currently operate out of a hotel in Kurdistan, but democratic thing of having a go at their own leaders the new consulate will be built on land provided by the and looking to their own resources to do better next KRG. I would like to take this opportunity to commend time. That is a real example to other areas of the middle my right hon. Friend the Member for North East east. An independence referendum was even held in Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) on all the progress he made Kurdistan that garnered virtually 99% support for in advancing British relations with the Kurdistan region. independence, but Kurdish politicians saw the bigger I am delighted that he has become the vice-chair of the picture and stepped back from the brink of pressing all-party group on Kurdistan. The Foreign Office’s loss that case, which is perhaps an example to another is most certainly our gain. political party not a million miles from here. The UK should be rightly proud of the close friendship We should not look at the region through rose-tinted that it has forged with the Kurdistan region, but as we spectacles, however, because there are problems. It might have heard, we must not get left behind. From France be better for Kurdistan’s image if the Prime Minister and Germany to Russia and the United Arab Emirates, were not the nephew of the President. The dominance other countries are realising the opportunities that exist of the Barzani family is something of a cause for in the region and participating in state visits at the concern, although I stress that both the President and highest level. I add my voice to those of my colleagues the Prime Minister are respected figures who have attracted who urge the Minister and the Foreign Secretary to visit a great deal of praise for the way in which they have this wonderful part of Iraq and see the mutual opportunities behaved in office. There are concerns about the human for themselves. The Kurdistan region is not resting on rights situation, particularly the treatment of journalists. its laurels, and nor should we. I heard what the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) said about the movement towards freedom of 10.14 am expression going in the right direction, but there are some real causes for concern, which have been highlighted Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure by Reporters without Borders. In December, for example, to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. It is a Kawa Germyani, editor of Rayal magazine, was murdered. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon I hope that the Minister will confirm that the British (Nadhim Zahawi), and I commend not only the hon. Government will take that matter up with the Kurdistan Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing Regional Government. Female genital mutilation is this timely and appropriate debate, but all the members prevalent, and I know that tackling it is a big priority of the all-party group who have spoken. It is clearly an for the Department for International Development. active and effective group. The Kurdistan National Assembly has made great efforts The division of Kurdistan, fixed almost by historical to tackle violence against women in all its forms. accident after the first world war, has posed enormous Another problem, to which hon. Members have referred, challenges for the Kurdish people. However, the defeat is the refugee situation. I believe that DFID has committed of Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf war in 1991, which some £18 million from its large budget to help refugees paved the way for the no-fly zone and the autonomy and host communities in the region, and it is doing and self-government of the region of Iraqi Kurdistan, fantastic work with organisations such as UNICEF and delivered to the Kurdish people an enormous opportunity Save the Children, but the situation is complicated. that they have made good use of. They have built a Most refugees from Syria who enter Iraq are going into democratic, peaceful and stable society—a nation, really—in the Kurdistan region. There are even refugees from Iraq Iraqi Kurdistan, which is an example to many other in Syria who are trying to return to their homes in Iraq; parts of the middle east. they have become secondarily displaced because they The situation might not have been that way. In the have not been able to return to their home regions. In 1990s, the PUK and the KDP were virtually fighting a camps, settlements and urban areas across Iraq, but civil war between different armed peshmerga groups. If mainly in the Kurdistan region, there are still Palestinian we, as Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, think that refugees who were granted asylum by the previous our coalition is a little bumpy and was difficult to put regime. We can do only so much through aid budgets together, imagine if one of us had been drawing support and assistance. In a sense, the ultimate solution to all from Saddam Hussein and the other had been drawing these problems is to press the peace processes for Syria, support from Iran, and we had been at war only a few for Israel and Palestine, and across the region. years before. Even so, the PUK and the KDP, for many years, put together a successful coalition. They put It is right that we should accentuate the positive in a aside their differences. They built strong institutions in debate such as this, and I would entirely endorse the Iraqi Kurdistan, with help and input from the Foreign requests made by the hon. Member for Colne Valley for and Commonwealth Office, which assists with institution- greater diplomatic links, reciprocal visits, better trade building in Kurdistan. The two parties encouraged links, and visa relaxation, particularly in respect of significant investment in the region, even from investors student visas. Of course, I must add to the chorus by such as Turkey that might once have been its enemies—as recommending the university of Gloucestershire as a hon. Members have said, Turkey has now become very potential destination. I am sure that the hon. Member engaged. The governing coalition also invested significantly for Gloucester (Richard Graham), who is in the Chamber, in infrastructure. In many ways, the approach was a would endorse that. model one. The two parties managed to achieve all that The security situation must be addressed, as the while respecting the rights of minorities, both religious hon. Member for Harlow mentioned. The Foreign and and ethnic. Commonwealth Office is already helping the Kurdistan 287WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 288WH of Iraq of Iraq Regional Government to address that, but more can be but we must recognise that if we are to impose rough done. We should do as much as we can to help with the caps, that might affect the ability of our universities to refugee situation on the ground, but there are many build close contacts with regions such as Kurdistan. things happening in Kurdistan to praise and applaud. It The co-chair of the all-party group, my hon. Friend is now an example of what many nations and communities the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), has in the middle east could achieve, given peace, democracy, contributed an enormous amount to the strong relationship and self-determination. between Parliament and the Kurdistan region, and we heard her depth of knowledge on the issue. I would like 10.21 am to pick up on what she said about the Domiz refugee Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It has been a pleasure to camp, which I visited, as did a number of other Members, listen to this extremely well-informed debate on the and where 75,000 people are living. When I visited, the Kurdistan region. It is testament to the work of the environment was extraordinarily calm. I had a haircut all-party group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq that so there, which was very high quality indeed. A meticulous many Members who have taken part in the debate have gentleman applied to my hair a strange substance that is actually visited the region, learned so much about it and not normally applied to it. The community there is can speak with such breadth of knowledge. It is also working extremely hard in very difficult circumstances, interesting that Members have forged relationships with and the UK Government are giving it a great deal of the region through the universities that they represent. financial support, for which I pay tribute to them. Our We do not always sufficiently appreciate the importance consul general is playing an important role in assisting of MPs building relationships with different parts of with that support, alongside the United Nations High the world through local contacts and visits. Commissioner for Refugees. The Kurdistan Regional Government are also working hard to provide a strong Before he had to leave, the right hon. Member for base to support the huge number of refugees that are Belfast North (Mr Dodds) made an important point going into not just the camp but the rest of Iraqi about the regions of the UK. We have here Members Kurdistan. from right across the UK. We must deal with Kurdish matters not just at the UK Government level in Whitehall; we MPs must make efforts in our communities and Meg Munn: My hon. Friend is making an important build personal connections. There are Kurds right across point about the refugee camp. I am greatly concerned the UK, often studying. As we know from the hon. about the 13,000 children there, and the fact that there Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), in are only four schools. There are efforts to increase the the long term, building strong links over a sustained number of schools so that these children, who have period will help to create prosperity in Kurdish communities. already suffered displaced lives and a great deal of trauma, can continue their education. Does he support I must pay tribute to the hon. Member for Colne my call for the Government to look specifically at Valley (Jason McCartney) for securing this debate. It supporting the provision of schools for those children? is important that we recognise his service in the Royal Air Force in the 1990s. We must also pay tribute to the people of Kurdistan, who are so grateful for the Ian Lucas: Absolutely; I would certainly support that commitment of the United Kingdom over the past call. I visited a school in the camp and spoke to the head 25 years. When I visited the region last June—I refer to teacher. It was quite extraordinary to see the enthusiasm my record in the Register of Members’ Financial and interest that the children attending the school showed Interests—I found that people were particularly grateful to visitors to the site. We are doing a good job on site, to former Prime Ministers John Major and Tony Blair. but because of the continuing pressure from the appalling The latter has not been mentioned today, but he is events in Syria, I am afraid that the pressures on Iraqi extremely highly regarded in the region because of the Kurds in the camps also continue. part he played in safeguarding the role of Kurds in Iraq I echo my hon. Friend’s point about the fact that Iraq throughout an extremely difficult period. is housing huge numbers of refugees. For reasons I do We have heard about the progress made in the region. not really understand, Iraq is not generally referred to It must have been an extraordinary experience for the as providing support for refugees from Syria, but there hon. Member for Colne Valley to visit a peaceful Kurdistan, is huge pressure on Iraqi Kurdistan from Syrian refugees, after previously making a flying visit, if I may use that and we are doing a lot there. We must recognise that phrase. He will have seen the extraordinary progress in whenever a statement is made. the country that I saw, and the appetite there for all I ask the Government, as the Labour party has done things British. I must say to the Minister that the previously, to consider whether, in a very limited number impression that I got—I am sure the Government will of cases, they should offer refuge to individuals who agree—is that the door is open and needs only a gentle have fled Syria and are now in places such as Iraq. push as far as UK universities, trade and cultural links There are people who have serious medical difficulties are concerned. There can be a strong, vibrant relationship or particularly close family contacts here, and they to the benefit of Kurdistan and the UK, if only we give could be offered direct refuge in the UK. We have that door a gentle push. pressed the Government previously on this issue. In a Last week, I had the pleasure of meeting the consul limited number of cases that option should be considered, general to talk about the progress made even since I because at present we are not offering any places to visited last June. It was good to hear that we are those individuals. We should consider doing so, and I building better links. We must be conscious of issues ask the Minister to reflect on that. such as immigration caps when we are talking about We heard from the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert student visas. We can talk consensually about the Halfon) about the Anfal, which I heard about on my importance of bringing Kurdish students to the UK, visit to Iraqi Kurdistan, when I met relatives of individuals 289WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 290WH of Iraq of Iraq [Ian Lucas] I am afraid that I will have to refer to my university in Wrexham, Glyndwr university, which as we speak is who had disappeared in 1988. As I have said before in holding discussions with the university in Erbil about the House, I remember seeing a TV programme—I possible relationships between them. Again, that shows think it was “Newsnight”—on the Halabja attacks in the appetite in the UK for building relationships with the late 1980s, which has stayed with me forever; it was the Iraqi region of Kurdistan. There will be more very powerful indeed. I think we made a lot of progress contact between Iraqi Kurdistan and the rest of the in our discussions on this subject in the debates that we world in the future. The region wants contact with the have had during the last year. I pay tribute to the right UK and its different regions. We really need to seize hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair that opportunity and do the best that we can to ensure Burt) for the work that he did. I can report to Members that we are right at the forefront in pushing at that open here that after a debate that took place last year, I had door that I referred to earlier. some private discussions with him about trying to take The Iraqi region of Kurdistan is a very tough this issue forward on a consensual basis—it is clearly neighbourhood indeed. We must remember that it is not a partisan matter—and we would like to try to bordered by Iran on one side and Syria on another, and continue that process with the new Minister, who is here that Turkey is to the north. Notwithstanding that difficult today. environment—it is such a difficult political environment, I know that, as far as the Kurdistan Regional with so much violence, including the violence in the rest Government are concerned, the recognition of the genocide of Iraq—there has been real progress in the region, and is a major issue and that there is a strong feeling in the that is quite extraordinary. country that there is not the level of international We need to help the Kurdistan Regional Government recognition that there should be, so the steps taken by to build better relations with the Government in Iraq; the UK Parliament last year were welcome. They helped relations between the two have been the source of some to inform the debate, which we need to take further at tension. It is also important that we recognise that those Governmental level. I am happy to continue the discussions tensions continue, particularly over the pipelines that in which the right hon. Member for North East deliver oil from northern Iraq to Turkey. There is a Bedfordshire played such a positive role. continuing debate over that issue, and I hope that the Of course, the co-chair of the all-party group on the UK Government will play a positive role in trying to Kurdistan region in Iraq, the hon. Member for Stratford- build relations, especially in the context of the election on-Avon, does not need any lectures from me about later this year. Kurdistan. I simply say to him that as a visitor to We have heard a great deal about the positive nature Kurdistan—I visited it for a limited period—I was of the relationship between the region and the UK. I fascinated by the region. It is such an important region, would like to flag up the issue of female genital mutilation, because it has played such an important role in the past which is still an issue in Kurdistan. We can play a 25 years in UK politics. In the context of current events positive role in engaging on that issue with the Kurdistan in the middle east, it would be very valuable for all Regional Government. I think that they would accept Members to visit Iraqi Kurdistan, whatever their position that it is an issue on which progress needs to be made. on it has been in votes in the past 10 years; I know that This is a country that is developing a democratic tradition. we have a number of different positions represented in That has happened there very recently, and it is very Westminster Hall today. Visiting Iraqi Kurdistan makes important that difficult issues such as this one are a valuable contribution to one’s knowledge of the region, addressed in their cultural context. and visiting it would help to inform Members who have One of the important players in that process will be not been there about the progress of democracy in the the Kurdistan diaspora community in the UK. That middle east, because it is an important example of a community is very important indeed, and they are very place where progress has been made. active and willing to engage with UK political After all, when I was in Erbil, I had the longest representatives. I hope that they will engage with more political interview that I have ever had on the Rudaw and more MPs to try to get them to recognise the television channel. It was a wide-ranging interrogation importance of the Iraqi Kurdistan region, and to get on policy across the middle east. I would love to have more of them involved in the all-party group on the that on the BBC, but unfortunately the interview went Kurdistan region in Iraq. That group has achieved a on for longer than “Newsnight”; I think my interview great deal. We have heard about the work being done lasted 50 minutes, whereas “Newsnight” has a 45-minute with universities and businesses locally as a result of the running time. As I say, there is progress in the region on group’s work, and that can only be further developed by democratic debate. having more MPs involved with the group. I am not The citadel referred to by the hon. Member for Colne sure how many of my colleagues in the House will Valley is an extraordinary historic site. When one says welcome this, but I encourage members of the Kurdish to one’s constituents, “You should go to Iraq for a diaspora here to contact their local MP to try to get holiday”, there might be a certain amount of scepticism them involved in the group, because they will then learn initially, but that citadel is the longest-occupied site on about the progress made in the northern region of Iraq, earth and it is an extraordinary place to visit. I am quite and will also build better links between the UK and the sure that in the future people will go to Erbil, and there region. is a strong view—is there not?—that we need to work The positive picture that Members and I have painted towards introducing direct flights from the UK to the this morning is testament to our good relations with the region, so as to facilitate that type of visit for our region, both under the previous Government and this constituents. I am sure that that would be widely appreciated Government. That picture is one of extraordinary progress. across the House, both for tourism and for business. There are still opportunities there, and we need to build 291WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 292WH of Iraq of Iraq on them further. I think that this is an issue that there is in the region and we hope more will follow. British not a big political divide over, and the positive picture companies are helping to realise its potential in the of the UK in the Kurdistan region provides a massive energy sector. In recent months, two major trade missions opportunity for the UK. It is an opportunity that we have visited the region, led by my noble Friend Lord need to seize. Marland and by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne respectively. 10.40 am We recently welcomed the first inward investment mission from the region to London and another will The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth follow this month. As ever, these links benefit from the Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I congratulate my hon. Friend contribution of the Kurdish community resident in the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on the UK, which now numbers many thousands, and the securing this debate. The Minister of State, Foreign and Kurdistan Regional Government representation here in Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member London. for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), would have been delighted to respond, but he is travelling on We have only just begun to realise the commercial ministerial duties. My hon. Friend the Member for potential for the UK and the Kurdistan region, and we Harlow (Robert Halfon) referred to me as the new cannot take success for granted. That is why we have Minister and this was compounded by the hon. Member increased staffing at our consulate general in Erbil and for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) doing so. I have been Minister will move to a new permanent building, which, I am of State in the Foreign Office since September 2012, but glad to report to my hon. Friend the Member for this part of the world is not my responsibility particularly, Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), we plan to open which is why there may have been some confusion. It is in the second half of 2015. none the less my pleasure to respond on the Government’s We continue to look for new opportunities in the behalf. region. UK Trade and Investment worked with the The knowledge and insight with which hon. Members London office of the Kurdistan Regional Government have spoken today says much about the strength of our to host a conference in July 2013 dedicated to tourism relations with Iraqi Kurdistan, the reasons for which in the region. We continue to build strong links in and the significant advantages it brings I will come on higher education. On her recent trip, Baroness Nicholson to discuss. I pay tribute to hon. and right hon. Members took representatives from a range of UK universities to from all parties—and in both Houses—for their work that part of the world. over many years to build relations with the Kurdistan Some 1,600 postgraduate students came to the UK region, not least to the great efforts made by the all-party last year, supported by the Kurdistan Regional Government. group. As Minister responsible for the Chevening scholarship The hon. Member for Wrexham said that it was up to programme, I am delighted that one of its scholars, hon. Members to familiarise themselves with the region. Minister Falah Mustafa, is now the head of the Kurdistan I have not had the advantage of travelling to the region, Regional Government’s Department of Foreign Relations but having done extensive research for today’s debate, and recently met my right hon. Friend the Member for including reading the previous, extraordinarily distinguished Faversham and Mid Kent. debate in the House, and I should love to go there and Recognising the relative safety and security of this see it for myself—and perhaps even have a similar region, our travel advice makes a distinction from the haircut to the hon. Member for Wrexham, not that the rest of Iraq. We are one of the few countries that do not creator of his hairstyle will receive an MBE any time advise against travel to the Kurdistan region. We have soon. You never know. also taken steps to make it easier to obtain a UK visa. APG members have observed great changes—because During his visit in September last year, my noble Friend there have been great changes—in Iraqi Kurdistan, Lord Marland opened a visa application centre in Erbil, including in its relationship with the UK, and they have so that applicants no longer have to travel to Baghdad made a significant contribution to realising them, which or outside Iraq to submit their applications, although I I acknowledge and for which I thank them. It does our accept that it is still relatively expensive to submit Parliament great credit and their efforts do not go applications. unrecognised. We welcome the group’s latest report, Hon. Members spoke about direct flights. I have ever which is launched today. more calls for direct flights around the world, particularly The links between Britain and Iraqi Kurdistan are with my responsibilities in Latin and central America; historic and deep, as we have heard. The recent strength everybody wants direct flights to the UK, and the of those links is founded in no small measure on our Kurdistan region is no exception. We share the ambition country’s role in establishing the no-fly zone in 1991, to see direct flights between London and Erbil and which helped to protect the population from Saddam’s other destinations in Iraq. That requires work to satisfy murderous threat. The region is now a stable and prosperous our security assessments, but I am pleased to say that area within a volatile region. I will return to that point, officials from the Department for Transport visited but first I shall say a little more about opportunities to Erbil in November and we are making good progress strengthen our relations further, echoing many comments with the authorities. It is our hope that Erbil airport, made hon. and right hon. Members. designed by a British architect, will welcome British The people of Iraqi Kurdistan and its Regional carriers in the near future. Government are ambitious, and opportunities in the As I have noted, the security situation in Iraqi Kurdistan region are, as we have heard, striking. Its economy compares favourably with much of Iraq and the wider continues to grow impressively. More companies from region, but it is not immune from threats. We recognise Britain than from any other EU country are registered the ongoing bravery of the security forces who counter 293WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 294WH of Iraq of Iraq [Mr Hugo Swire] We have made it clear that addressing the threat of terrorism requires support from the local community the threats of terrorism, and pay tribute to those who and an inclusive political process for all Iraqis. We urge lost their life in September in that deplorable act of Iraqi Kurds to play a full part in Iraq’s democratic terrorism in Erbil—thankfully, the first such atrocity future, ensuring that federal elections take place in for several years. The hon. Member for Cheltenham April on time, fairly and freely. We also hope that (Martin Horwood) rightly spoke about the complex overdue provincial elections for the Kurdish region will situation in the region regarding refugees. be held at that time. We welcome the efforts in 2013 to improve relations Meg Munn: Will the Minister give way? between Erbil and Baghdad, including reciprocal visits, which were asked for by a number of hon. Members, by Mr Swire: If the hon. Lady will allow me, I am about President Barzani and Prime Minister Maliki. We urge to address the points that she made. both sides to find agreement on how to administer the The hon. Lady asked what the British Government country’s energy resources and on how to share oil were doing for the refugees. My hon. Friend the Member export revenues, and to finalise the 2014 federal budget. for Harlow also commented on that. As a result of the Resolving those issues is vital to unlocking much needed horrors in Syria, Syrian refugees continue to flee across investment throughout Iraq. We also hope that a new the border. I pay tribute to the Kurdish and federal Kurdistan Regional Government will continue to make Iraqi authorities, and to the people of the region, for progress on human rights in the region. The recent their support to the many people whose lives have murder of a journalist was a brutal reminder that been threatened and who have been left displaced journalists continue to be targeted, and we call on and dispossessed. The Department for International authorities to bring those responsible to justice. Development has given £14.2 million to international The hon. Member for Cheltenham raised the murder efforts supporting Syrian refugees in the Kurdistan of Kawa Germyani, about which we have expressed region. The UK will make a major contribution to the serious concern. He was the editor-in-chief of Rayal new UN appeal for Syria at the pledging conference magazine and a correspondent for the Sulaymaniyah-based being held today in Kuwait, and we urge other countries Awena newspaper. He was assassinated outside his home to be equally generous. We also welcome the efforts of in Kalar on 5 December, which is a brutal reminder that the leadership of the Kurdistan Regional Government journalists in the region continue to be targeted for to encourage Syrian Kurdish groups to agree on reasons related to their work. It is important that the participation in Geneva II. KRG honour their commitment to investigate the attack The hon. Member for Wrexham asked specifically and to bring those responsible to justice. about allowing in refugees from that part of the world. The people of the region know only too well the He will know that there has been a lively debate about horror of violence and abuse, having suffered at the asylum for Syrian refugees, and I will not change the hands of Saddam Hussein. Members have spoken established Government position. I remind him of our eloquently today and in the past about the Anfal campaign major commitment to alleviating suffering in that part against Iraq’s Kurds. I am pleased to hear that my right of the world. The UK is right at the forefront of this. hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire Following the pledging conference in Kuwait, I am sure (Alistair Burt) has accepted the vice-chairmanship of that we will maintain that position. the all-party group, and our debate on the subject in February 2013 is an example of the House at its best. Meg Munn: I want to ask about security, because the As he noted on that occasion, the Government have a Minister moved on a little bit too quickly, hence my long-standing position of following a legal process to agitation at that point. When we visited in November, ascertain whether such atrocities should be designated the Interior Minister responsible for security spoke to as an act of genocide, but I reiterate our sympathy us about his difficulty in getting support for help and for the victims of the Anfal and confirm that we will advice about non-lethal security measures. I should like work with the Kurdistan Regional Government and to press the Minister, if not now then perhaps later, to representatives here on how we can mark Anfal day on say what more we could do to help with a difficult 14 April in an appropriate way. security situation and to help a Government who are working hard to keep the region safe and who are Robert Halfon: Will my right hon. Friend do what he successful for most of the time. can to ensure that the British Government do everything that they can to bring to justice the perpetrators of the Mr Swire: I hear what the hon. Lady says, and she genocide if they are living in Europe? Will he do the and other hon. Members will be aware that sales of same for the companies that supplied the chemical non-lethal equipment may be subject to the UK’s export weapons to Saddam Hussein? Fortunately, the companies licensing controls. Applications for export licences are are not British; they are from other parts of Europe. considered on a case-by-case basis against the criteria, taking into account the circumstances at the time. Mr Swire: Indeed, we should and will do everything Following on from what the hon. Lady says, Iraqi we can to bring to justice perpetrators of any atrocities Kurds have a vital role in the stability of Iraq, where anywhere in the world, and the companies that have terrorist violence claimed nearly 9,000 lives in 2013. We been supplying them illegally. That is what we do as a are extremely concerned about the current violence in Government, and we will certainly continue to do so. Anbar province in western Iraq. This Government will Reflecting on those past tragedies only emphasises the stand alongside the Iraqi Government in combating progress made by Iraqi Kurdistan. We urge Iraqi Kurds that threat and other terrorist threats across the region. to use the example of their history and progress to 295WH Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 15 JANUARY 2014 Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region 296WH of Iraq of Iraq become a voice of moderation in Iraq and to show what violence against very young women and girls who have they have done to address discrimination, to protect no choice, and we should continue to be strong wherever minorities and to rejuvenate their economy. in the world we find the practice. In the closing moments I will address the other I do not run the Foreign Secretary’s diary, but I am questions that have been raised. My hon. Friend the certain that he will have noted the point on high-level Member for Stratford-on-Avon is a fantastic example visits. The then Minister with responsibility for the of someone from that part of the world. He said that he middle east, my right hon. Friend the Member for is the first British Member of Parliament of Kurd North East Bedfordshire, visited Erbil in February 2013, ancestry, which is a remarkable achievement. There is a and Lord Marland has also visited. Various hon. Members lot more he can do, and I would not be surprised if called for more ministerial visits and trade missions—yes, there were some wonderful opportunities for Erbil in absolutely. I would point out that Ministers under this Stratford-on-Avon. If we can export “War Horse,” the Government are travelling much more than ever before, Michael Morpurgo play, to China, I am sure he can and that part of the world should certainly be on their probably export “Wolf Hall” to Erbil. “Wolf Hall” is a agenda. I welcome the idea that we should invite President play that runs for eight hours and is on in Stratford-on-Avon Barzani to the UK, and we will factor that in. We heard as we speak, and I know that my hon. Friend is experiencing from the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) considerable difficulty in obtaining tickets. about President Barzani’s visit to Northern Ireland at The hon. Members for Cheltenham and for Wrexham the invitation of the First Minister and Deputy First talked about women’s rights, particularly in relation to Minister in February 2013 and the signing of the FGM. Since I have been in the House we have not done memorandum of understanding, which was a very enough about FGM, which is one of the most abhorrent, successful trip. despicable things to happen to women, and the thought My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley asked that it still continues in the UK is absolutely unacceptable. about a UK trade envoy for Iraqi Kurdistan, which is probably under consideration. Such appointments are Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): made by No. 10, which is aware of the opportunities in The Minister is addressing an important topic. Does he Iraqi Kurdistan. We have spoken about visas, Anfal and agree that we need to send out a clear message not just flights. This is one of those remarkable occasions on in the region but across the developing world that the which I have addressed every single question raised by practice of female genital mutilation is totally and hon. Members. This debate has been entirely consensual. utterly unacceptable to try to move those societies away There is no party political divide, and we agree that the from such a barbaric practice? work of the all-party group has been superb and continues to be so. We agree that we need to do much more in the area on education, cultural links and business opportunities. Mr Swire: Yes, I absolutely do. The hon. Gentleman We need to do a lot to remind the world of the horrendous will be aware of the Foreign Secretary’s wider initiative suffering of the Iraqi Kurds, and we need to do more to to prevent sexual violence in conflict, particularly against raise awareness and to alleviate the suffering of many women. FGM is different, and there is a big initiative in refugees from Syria. The extraordinarily complicated the House, not before time. We have continued to fund mix in the area is the fallout from what is going on in various projects run by the Westminster Foundation Syria. On human rights, we need to ensure the safety for Democracy to increase participation by female and freedom of journalists. We want free and fair parliamentarians in the Kurdistan Parliament. We continue elections. We want good relations with all the disparate to support efforts to improve the position of women in parts of Iraq, and we want to end barbaric practices Iraqi society, and we are working closely with the UN, such as female genital mutilation. We are in a good the EU and other international partners, but he is right. place and we are doing a lot, but we can always do a lot I find the practice of FGM absolutely abhorrent wherever more. With such an active all-party group, we are in a it is perpetrated. It seems to me to be an ultimate act of pretty good place. 297WH 15 JANUARY 2014 Farmland Bird Populations 298WH

Farmland Bird Populations a fantastic piece of science and a wonderful resource. Unfortunately, it paints a gloomy picture regarding farmland birds. 11 am Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): I congratulate my It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs right hon. Friend on securing this debate. I have a Osborne. I thank Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity particular fondness, as we all do for particular birds, for to raise this subject here today. lapwings. Is he aware of the extraordinary work being It may seem slightly strange to the casual observer done by people such as Philip Merricks? He has proved that a Member whose seat is based firmly in the suburbs that, in order to get more than 0.7 chicks per pair should raise the subject of farmland birds, but as some fledged, one has to do a lot of intervention and work colleagues will know—if the Minister did not know hard. He has managed to double the rate through good before, he will become aware of it not just today, but management of the Elmley reserve on the Isle of Sheppey. over the coming months and years—nature and birds There are many lessons that we can learn from people have been a passion of mine for a long time. Of course, like him. I agree with the gloomy reports of the current all these issues are relevant to us all, wherever we live. status of farmland birds that my right hon. Friend talks I can remember waking up at home in Uxbridge to about, but we can turn that around over the next few the sound of skylarks singing. Today I live in the house years. next door, but I am afraid that the sound of skylarks singing has been replaced by the rather alien shrieks of Sir John Randall: I was not aware of that piece of the ring-necked parakeet. However, I am pleased to say research, but I am aware of its general nature. I pay that one does not need to go too far away in the London tribute to my hon. Friend for much of the work he did borough of Hillingdon to go down to Minet park, when he was the Minister responsible for biodiversity. It where one can still hear and see skylarks. is not always easy, because one cannot always do the things one really wants to do. I know what he does At this time of year, our fields should be golden and privately as well for farmland birds and for wildlife in alive, but not with the rapeseed and wheat that were general. everywhere a few months ago; they should be golden with yellowhammers and alive with flocks of other We have an opportunity to turn things around in farmland birds and wildlife, waking up for spring. the coming months. We know what the problem is: the Yellowhammers are normally pretty solitary, but this main reason for the decline—there are others—is the time of year, as birders will know, they flock together, intensification of farming methods. Changes in cropping and when they lift from the stubble in the sun, it is a patterns have led to a loss of winter stubbles, so the remarkable sight. I have secured this debate because main feeding habitats for many birds, such as finches yellowhammers, skylarks and many other farmland birds and buntings, have disappeared or have been greatly are in trouble. reduced. Greater use of pesticides and herbicides has removed critical food resources, and the loss of hedges Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the right and other semi-natural habitats, of which we are all hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. In my constituency, aware, has combined with intensive grassland management there have been three initiatives to increase the numbers to take away vital habitats. of yellowhammers: at Calvert’s on Ballybryan road; Lord Dunleath’s estate in Ballywalter; and Martin Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank my Hamilton’s in Newtownards. All three projects to increase right hon. Friend for raising this subject, which has the number of yellowhammers have happened not only been of huge interest to me all my life. Does he accept because of the commitment of farmers but because of that one of the great dangers is the monocultures that the shooting organisations, such as the Countryside are creeping into parts of our country, particularly Alliance and the British Association for Shooting and maize? Huge areas are used to grow maize every year to Conservation. Does the right hon. Gentleman believe feed energy plants, and that is probably causing more that a partnership needs to be achieved between landowners damage to birds and wildlife in those areas than anything and shooting organisations for such initiatives to succeed? else one could imagine.

Sir John Randall: Those organisations have a strong Sir John Randall: I am delighted to hear of my hon. record on farmland birds. I am sometimes a little bit Friend’s great interest in the subject over many years. As concerned about some of them regarding birds of prey a farmer himself, what he says exemplifies the fact that on uplands, but that subject is for another day. many farmers are keen conservationists and can do an The farmland bird indicator, which is a scientific awful lot for us; I will go on to that in a little while. record of populations, shows that more than half of the Many of the changes that I have been talking about UK’s skylarks, yellowhammers, linnets and lapwings have been driven by farm incentives under the common have disappeared since the ’70s. Those birds are not the agricultural policy, which paid farmers to produce more, worst affected, because they can survive in other habitats, and these days, there is also pressure from competition but species that live mainly on farmland, such as the to produce food ever more cheaply, but we know what grey partridge, turtledove, tree sparrow and corn bunting some of the answers could be. As several of my hon. have declined by 85%. Friends present have proved, a farmer’s knowledge of To any hon. Member who wants to follow the changes his land is second to none. Many farmers leap at the in population and range of all those different species, I chance to work their land in a way that provides a good thoroughly recommend the British Trust for Ornithology’s habitat for plants and animals. I pay tribute to the many new “Bird Atlas”, which maps out 40 years of data. It is farmers who work tirelessly to conserve and improve 299WH Farmland Bird Populations15 JANUARY 2014 Farmland Bird Populations 300WH habitats. Working with conservation groups, wildlife-friendly that the Department seriously intends to increase the farmers have come up with the big three essential elements transfer to 15% from 2018. Slightly less than £3.1 billion for farmland birds to thrive: safe nesting sites; invertebrate of that money will be spent through the next round food for chicks in the spring and summer; and seed food of agri-environment spending, known as the new over the winter. environmental land management scheme. It is a real I noticed with interest that in a recent edition of chance to make good on the two big issues. Country Life, the Game and Wildlife Conservation The new scheme must be targeted and, when we are Trust has urged both farmers and gamekeepers to sign talking about farmland birds, farmers need to deliver up to its action plan for grey partridges—this goes to the big three conservation solutions if they are to receive the point made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim the money. The Minister will be aware that DEFRA Shannon)—which will help not only that species but will make its decisions about the design of NELMS other farmland species, and indeed mammals such as over the next few months. It is a great opportunity to the iconic brown hare, which will be the subject of design a scheme that will deliver for the environment by another debate from me. supporting farmers in taking the ecological steps that The answers can be provided by simple solutions. A will enhance the value of their land for wildlife and the skylark plot is a tiny patch mown into the centre of a public at large. I hope that the Minister can assure me field. It allows birds to enter the thick crops and nest that biodiversity will be the top priority of the NELMS safely away from predators. Skylark plots have raised scheme. More specifically, I hope he agrees that to breeding success by 50%, but they are small enough to deliver the maximum value for money, we need a system have no significant impact on crop yields. Other actions that will dish out money only when farmers deliver the require a bit more effort, but we know that they work. core conservation actions along with a system that targets the menu of conservation options to the area At the moment, the main tool for improving biodiversity involved. is agri-environment schemes, under which farmers receive money for environmental stewardship. Let me give a couple of examples of the difference they can make. Jim Shannon: One issue that has not been touched on Under such schemes, cirl bunting numbers in south yet—the right hon. Gentleman might intend to come Devon have increased sevenfold, from 118 pairs in 1989 on to it—is the control of vermin to enhance these to 862 pairs in 2009. I am certainly showing my age projects and help them work. Does he feel that the when I say that I can remember going to watch cirl control of grey-backed crows, magpies and foxes, for buntings in Buckinghamshire. Now they are completely example, is an integral part of any programme to help confined, in England, down in the south-west. That is these bird populations grow? another example of how species have just disappeared. In Wiltshire and Norfolk, stone curlew numbers have Sir John Randall: The hon. Gentleman is leading me recovered from just 160 pairs in the 1980s to 400 pairs in towards something in which I am not an expert. Obviously 2012, thanks to farmers working through agri-environment there is always a question about vermin, but it is a little schemes. When we get the system right, farmers are more contentious, and I want to keep my comments expert in looking after our natural world. very much on farmland birds. Like all these actions, vermin control can be a good thing, but it can also be Other parts of the system have not been quite as rather contentious and it depends on where one is. effective. The entry level stewardship part of agri- environment has been untargeted—frankly, some farmers We have to ensure that Natural England has the have received money for old rope, as far as I, a non-farmer, resources it needs to provide specialist advice to farmers can see; that is what it looks like to me. There are and land managers. Natural England is taking a 26% 65 activities to choose from under the scheme. Many cut in its overall budget and a 38% cut in the portion of farmers involved in the entry level stewardship have the budget that it manages directly. How will that affect opted for the simplest measures that have the fewest the specialist advice needed to ensure that NELMS is benefits. One example is the low-input grassland option, working for our environment? which entails only modest restrictions on the use of Finally, I want to touch on the direct payments, as fertiliser and provides few if any benefits to wildlife. there is an opportunity there as well. The rules for The other big problem with environmental stewardship greening direct payments were watered down during the is that it has not been targeted properly. At the top end EU negotiations, but the UK can still make a couple of of the scheme, higher level stewardship has been targeted decisions to ensure that the subsidy delivers value for in 110 areas across England under a set of priority money. Again, we need to see a list of actions for the themes, but the entry level has been completely untargeted. ecological focus areas that will make a real difference to That means that farmers can receive money for actions biodiversity. DEFRA is about to review the cross- that make no ecological sense for the areas they are compliance rules, which are designed to ensure that farming. farmers abide by the rules before they can make a claim. Our money from the common agricultural policy is That includes rules like the retention of hedgerows and divided into two parts: pillar one is a direct payment protection for sites of special scientific interest. The based on land-holding, and pillar two is for rural CAP costs the UK £10.3 billion a year, which is £398 a development, including the agri-environment money. In household. It is only right that we ensure that the December, the Department for Environment, Food and money goes to farmers who are sticking by the rules and Rural Affairs announced that it would transfer 12% of delivering maximum public benefit. I hope the Minister CAP funds from direct payments to rural development. agrees that the rules need to be strengthened. The maximum of 15% would have been better, but 12% If they did not know it before, Members here, and still provides a hefty £3.5 billion to spend between 2015 those hopefully reading the debate later, will recognise and 2020. I would welcome the Minister’s confirmation that I am a committed birder. I have to speak out about 301WH Farmland Bird Populations15 JANUARY 2014 Farmland Bird Populations 302WH

[Sir John Randall] wood pigeon, for example, has benefited from the increased availability of food as a result of cropping patterns biodiversity because it is my passion, but this is about switching to more oilseed rape, as many farmers could more than a bearded man and his binoculars. Just last tell us. week, researchers at the university of Exeter found that The causes for the overall decline are complex and moving to a green space had a sustained positive effect varied, but it is clear that the sharpest rate in decline on people’s well-being, unlike pay rises or promotions, coincided with major changes in agricultural land which only give a short-term boost, however welcome. management and intensification. First, the switch from Connection to nature is vital. Farmers are the stewards spring to autumn sowing of many cereal crops led to a of three quarters of our land, so we must ensure that loss of overwinter stubble fields, which has had a major the system helps them deliver a healthy countryside. impact on food sources. Secondly, the increased use of There are economic implications, too. We know that agri-chemicals, particularly during the 1970s, played an our farmers need to be competitive to provide affordable important part as well. Thirdly, the loss of field margins food, but we also know that they need help to deliver and hedgerows meant that farmland birds lost not only the wider benefits from their land. We have all heard valuable sources of seed and insect food, particularly about the plight of the bumblebee: of the 97 food plants over the winter, but suitable nesting habitat. Recently, that bumblebees prefer, 76% are in decline. It is not just other natural factors have had an impact, particularly bees that are vital pollinators. We need to look after the the weather. Many species have been vulnerable to the whole of our farmland diversity to help underpin the recent wet summers and cold winters. There is also future of the sector. disease; we know, for example, that trichomonosis has This debate is about seizing the opportunities in front affected the greenfinch. of us. Many of the decisions about farm funding have For some ground-nesting species such as lapwing, been made—many of them at European level—but the and game birds such as grey partridge, we have to Minister has a chance over the next couple of months acknowledge that predation by foxes and other predators to help to create a farming sector that will thrive and has been a factor. The impact of predation varies between fields that are alive with wildlife again. I hope he takes species. For farmland songbirds, for instance, there is the opportunity to design a system that puts nature at little evidence of an effect, perhaps because they often its heart and delivers targeted and efficient support for have more than one brood and will re-nest after predation, our nature-friendly farmers. The magical sound of the and are therefore better able to withstand its effects. song flight of the skylark is the quintessential sound of There is some evidence that predation is likely to have a the British countryside, and I sincerely and earnestly greater impact on bird populations where habitat is in want future generations to share in the joy that I and so poor condition, perhaps because it has been degraded many others have had in the natural world over the through overgrazing; nests may be more exposed and years. It is down to us to ensure that we do everything suffer higher loss rates to predators. we can to ensure that that happens. Having outlined the causes of the decline and the nature of the problem, I want to say something about 11.16 am what we hope to do, and the possible solutions. Our agri-environment schemes are the principal means of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for improving habitat for farmland birds in England; they Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I provide funds for farmers to manage the cropped congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for environment and provide additional habitat and food Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) on on their farms for farmland birds and other wildlife. securing this debate. He is passionate about bird life Agri-environment measures that benefit birds include and has been a member of the Royal Society for the providing overwintered stubble, so that there is seed in Protection of Birds for some 50 years, which shows real winter, and wild bird seed mixtures in spring and summer, dedication. I grew up around wildlife on a farm. In and the sympathetic management of hedgerows. Today Cornwall, we used to get a lot of lapwings, because they there are about 50,000 farmers in England in agri- often overwintered there. Like him, I have a passion for environment schemes, representing about 70% of available birds and wildlife, and I want to see the common farmland. As part of the rural development programme agricultural policy promoting them. for England, we spend about £400 million a year on My right hon. Friend highlighted that the trend in those schemes. recent decades has been bleak. The Department for As I said earlier, although we have stemmed the rate Environment, Food and Rural Affairs measures how of decline and have turned a corner with respect to birds fare through the farmland bird index, which is some species, we need overall to ask why, having spent a published every year as part of its biodiversity indicator great deal of money in recent years on such countryside suite. The index looks at 19 widespread species that feed stewardship schemes, we have not yet reversed the decline, in open farmland during the breeding season, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard includes species such as lapwing, grey partridge, greenfinch, Benyon), other hon. Members present, and I would wood pigeon, skylark, corn bunting and yellowhammers. want. The evidence shows that the main decline in the index The first thing to consider is management options was from the late 1970s to the early 1990s. While the under the stewardship schemes. We would certainly decline has continued, it has slowed since then. have liked better uptake of management options beneficial It should be noted that not all farmland bird species to farmland birds. My right hon. Friend the Member have followed the overall trend. While grey partridge, for Uxbridge and South Ruislip highlighted the weaknesses turtle dove, tree sparrow and corn bunting are among of the entry-level stewardship scheme in particular. We those declining, wood pigeon, jackdaw, goldfinch and have looked at ways of encouraging greater uptake of stock dove have all shown substantial increases. The those management options to benefit farmland birds. 303WH Farmland Bird Populations15 JANUARY 2014 Farmland Bird Populations 304WH

In 2013, as a result of the review, we introduced into have also taken the decision to increase the percentage the schemes specific measures that enable farmers to of the pillar two budget spent on agri-environment provide supplementary feeding for birds in winter, to schemes from 83% to 87%, so increasing the total begin to address what is known as the hungry gap amount being spent. Between now and 2020 we shall between midwinter and early spring, when seed food is spend well over £3 billion on agri-environment schemes, depleted and before other food sources become available. and I confirm that we intend to review the position in That simple measure involves providing seeds on the 2016, with a view to moving to a full 15% modulation, ground or in hoppers to supplement the seed in stubble subject to sufficient demand for the schemes and to and wild bird seed crops. Another new measure that we concluding an analysis of the competitiveness of British introduced in 2013 involved leaving the last cut ryegrass agriculture. silage unharvested, to allow grass to set seed and provide My right hon. Friend highlighted some of the a seed source over winter. shortcomings of the ELS, and as he said, we plan for a A study by Baker and others published in 2012 for new environmental land management scheme to replace the British Trust for Ornithology showed that there is it. The new scheme will build on the acknowledged strong evidence that the provision of winter food resources successes of the environmental stewardship scheme in a produces positive effects in relation to the population positive way: it will be more targeted and focused. The growth of a number of species. The study results underline new proposed mid-tier will identify areas of particular the importance of getting farmers to choose those priorities for given objectives and incentivise the right targeted measures that we have already introduced, to options; we call that the directed option choice. deliver the outcomes we need. Biodiversity is among the things that I want to promote Natural England, which administers environmental as we design NELMS. I want to make sure we have stewardship, has worked with many conservation bodies those directed options, so that there must be certain to develop farmland bird packages, setting out minimum options, from a particular list, that will prioritise the requirements for the options by which farmers can recovery of farmland birds. I want us to look at that provide nesting habitat, invertebrate chick food and closely as we develop the approach. The directed option adult seed food. They have been targeted at areas in choice will enable us to encourage farmers to maximise England known to hold important populations of farmland the environmental outcomes on their land, in response birds and have been promoted by Natural England and to the agreed environmental priorities in their area, the RSPB. rather than simply seeking the lowest-cost or most convenient options. In addition, we shall adopt a landscape- Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): The Minister makes scale approach to establishing NELMS. I hope that that a strong argument for the way modern farming can live will result in some critical mass and wildlife corridors, in harmony with wildlife, and for how environmental and a concentrated improvement in habitats to sustain schemes can improve bird numbers. All those present the recovery of certain bird species. for the debate will agree about that. However, he has Like my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury and not touched on habitat destruction through uncontrolled my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and planning and flooding. Is he in conversations with any South Ruislip, I want to reverse the decline in bird of his ministerial colleagues at the Department for populations, and I do not believe that that is incompatible Communities and Local Government about whether with continued farming. Many of the measures that can that aspect of the matter can be tightened up? help farmland birds are entirely compatible with modern farming practices. I recently had a meeting with the George Eustice: It is probably a topic for a separate RSPB, and we discussed some of the good work that debate, but my hon. Friend will know that we are they are doing at Hope farm in Cambridgeshire. I hope considering approaches such as biodiversity offsetting; to visit in the spring; this very morning, my office has when planning permission is granted and a habitat is been trying to find a date for that. damaged, there would be a process enabling local authorities The number of farmland birds at Hope farm has to put things right somewhere else. There is potential to doubled since 2000, mainly because of land management get that moving and to try to help habitats damaged by undertaken through environmental stewardship. A development. particular success has been the fourfold increase in Natural England has worked with the RSPB and the skylark numbers, which has been achieved simply through Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust to try to improve skylark plots. The RSPB representatives described to the working of the ELS scheme. The Campaign for the me how during the drilling of a cereal crop the drill is Farmed Environment has also done a lot to promote shut off periodically to produce the skylark plots. That good practice. It is a voluntary industry-led initiative, is a simple management measure, which does not really where key industry partners work with environmental affect the profitability of the farm, but has a huge effect groups to encourage farmers to undertake voluntary on the skylark population. I look forward to my meeting environmental management. It is funded jointly by the with the RSPB and learning more about that. industry and DEFRA, which has committed about £700,000 for this year and next to support its activities. I congratulate my right hon. Friend again on obtaining Currently the campaign is promoting skylark and lapwing the debate, and reassure him that we shall prioritise plots, wild bird seed mix strips, unsprayed overwinter biodiversity as we design the new environmental land stubbles and winter feeding. management scheme. My right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip mentioned the common agricultural policy. 11.29 am As he said, we have gone to a 12% modulation rate. We Sitting suspended. 305WH 15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 306WH

TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) Underground workers. To be told a month before Christmas that they would not have a job not only shocked them, but caused real consternation and, understandably, [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] considerable anger. The two rail unions that represent staff at London Underground—the National Union of 2.30 pm Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and the Transport John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The Salaried Staffs Association—rightly consulted their subject of this debate is future Government funding for members in the light of representations that they received. Transport for London and station staffing levels. They On Friday 10 January, the RMT issued the following are matters of considerable concern to many London statement: MPs, but they do extend beyond the capital. Let me first “RMT members have voted by 77% for strike action and by an outline the reasons why we sought this debate. even bigger majority for action short of a strike. The results will now be considered by a meeting of the union’s executive.” As a result of the Government’s austerity drive, Transport Dates will be set and there will be strike action unless for London’s general grant will, according to its December meaningful negotiations with the Mayor take place. 2013 business plan, be cut from £1 billion in 2013-14 to RMT general secretary, Bob Crow, said: £835 million in 2014-15, reaching a low of £629 million in 2015-16 before recovering slightly to £684 million by “RMT members on London Underground have voted by a massive majority for both strike action and action short of a 2020-21. On 21 November 2013, London Underground, strike in a dispute which is wholly about cash-led cuts” backed by its owner, TfL, and the Mayor of London, and Boris Johnson, announced a policy called “Fit For The Future—Stations”, which includes closing every ticket “plans that would see the axing of nearly a thousand safety office at all 240 stations, cutting 950 of the 5,750 station critical jobs and the closure of ticket offices at a time when the tube network is under growing pressure from customer demand staff positions, which equates to a 17% cut, and removing and needs more staff and not less to ensure safe and efficient supervisors and senior staff from many stations. At the operation.” same time as revealing station staffing cuts and ticket office closures, London Underground announced with Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I a big fanfare a separate policy of 24-hour operation congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. at weekends on some tube lines. The timing of that I must register an interest as a former employee of announcement was greeted by the staff of London London Transport, where I worked as a booking clerk. Underground and others as quite a cynical move designed I can certainly confirm that security and safety are most to distract attention from the plans to close ticket important for station staff when looking after passengers. offices and slash station staff numbers. The cuts will create fear in passengers’ minds and they will be reluctant to use the underground, so that they do Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Does my hon. not have to face criminals. A few weeks ago at Northfields Friend also recognise in that business plan Transport station in my constituency, a staff member was attacked for London’s intention to seek year-on-year fare rises and it was only because other staff were there to assist for the next decade? that he was saved and a disaster was averted.

John McDonnell: The reactions of my constituents John McDonnell: My hon. Friend is experienced and have been remarkable, and other Members may have knows what it is like to deal with customers face to face seen the same. People cannot understand why they are on the underground. He knows the insecurities of travellers paying more in fares while station staff and ticket and staff and outlines a recent, concrete example of offices are being cut. I can understand their being what can happen. perplexed. Let me finish what Bob Crow said: On 18 December, the Labour transport spokesman “Not only are a thousand posts on the line but staff remaining on the Greater London authority, Valerie Shawcross, are going to be forced through the humiliating and degrading asked the following question of the Mayor: experience of re-applying for their own jobs—the same staff who have been hailed as heroes when the tube has faced emergency “Will you guarantee that all LUL stations will be staffed at all situations”, times?” which echoes my hon. Friend’s point. Bob Crow continued: The Mayor responded by saying that officers were “That is a kick in the teeth for the loyal and experienced tube drafting a response that would be available shortly. We workforce who have kept services running safely and efficiently still have not had that response. The fact that the Mayor under constant pressure from weight of demand and a creaking has still not been able to provide an unequivocal answer and under-resourced infrastructure.” suggests that that guarantee cannot be given. Following He also said—I add this as it may prevent some carping the King’s Cross fire, a legal requirement was introduced or questions later—that before anyone starts that there be a minimum of two staff at every station, “shouting the odds they should take note of the fact that the turn but that applies to sub-surface stations only, so the out in this ballot was higher than the last mayoral and GLA others are extremely vulnerable. elections and the vote in favour massively outstrips anything that The business plan also sets out that London those same politicians can even dream of in terms of a popular Underground will cut the frequency of essential mandate.” maintenance checks, still plans to introduce driverless Those are the views of rank and file tube workers. trains at some unidentified point in future, is not filling On 9 January, the TSSA issued the following press posts, despite large numbers of Londoners looking for release: jobs, and seems to be plugging the gaps in staffing with “A strike ballot of front line station staff was called today by casual workers more frequently. My constituency has the TSSA rail union in protest at plans to close 260 Tube ticket a railway estate and I represent a number of London offices and axe nearly 1,000 jobs. 307WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 308WH

It gave London Underground seven days notice of a ballot who went back on a promise to keep ticket offices open. which will start next Friday, January 17 and end on January 27. That is what Boris Johnson pledged in his 2008 manifesto. Any subsequent industrial action could start from February 3 in That figure increased to 56% among those who voted the event of a yes vote. for Boris Johnson in the previous election. People feel Manuel Cortes, general secretary, blamed the ballot on the strongly, and they will be willing to express their concerns ‘reckless’ behaviour of London Mayor Boris Johnson who he said at the ballot box in due course. There is also a petition; was refusing to meet the unions over their genuine fears for safety and security with the wholesale closure of every ticket office. 20,000 people have signed a 38 Degrees e-petition calling on the Mayor to keep his manifesto promise. ‘It was the Mayor who came into office in 2008 with a firm pledge to keep open every ticket office on the grounds of keeping Political opposition to the cuts includes Labour and passengers safe and secure at all times. the Greens, and there has been cross-party support, ‘Now he wants to scrap the lot, claiming there will be no including from some Liberal Democrat MPs, for early-day problems because he will keep staff on station platforms, those motion 787 proposed by my hon. Friend the Member that keep their jobs, that is. for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). That sets out the ‘He wants to scrap permanent station supervisors who are in detail of the cuts in an objective fashion, but its conclusion charge of evacuations and replace them with mobile supervisors is to call on the Mayor of London to reconsider his who will travel from station to station. proposals and to keep the ticket offices open. One ‘But he will not answer the question; “How mobile can you be Liberal withdrew his name in due course, but that was a if all lines are in lockdown because of an emergency and nothing tube line to Damascus conversion as a result of promotion is moving whatsoever?”’. to ministerial office. [Interruption.] I cannot believe He called on the Mayor to end his six year ban on meeting the that others would do that. rail unions”— For opposition from the wider community, let me run he has refused to meet them for six years!— through some of the broad range of groups that have “and to sit down with them instead to work out a solution which expressed concerns. The cuts have been opposed by the would guarantee ‘the safety and protection of all passengers at all TUC and by disability organisations, in particular Transport times’.” for All, which is the voice for disabled people in London I repeat what the Mayor said in 2008, which was very on transport issues, and Disabled People Against Cuts. specific. He said that there was no The National Pensioners Convention has now expressed “financial, strategic or common sense” its concern about the implications of the cuts. in the closures that were threatened at the time, and Threats to passenger services are real. Let me run promised: through what the cuts mean in concrete terms. Now, “We will halt all such ticket office closures immediately”— every passenger may depend on staffed ticket offices when the machines are out of order or their Oyster card That is a broken promise. It is a broken promise not has stopped working. Under the Mayor’s plans, passengers only to the staff, but to the travelling passengers. will have nowhere to turn during such everyday situations. Passengers and the general public are anxious. A They will have to rely on their Oyster card or contactless large poll—a face-to-face survey by Survation of 1,027 payment cards to travel, or they will have to pay higher London underground users in 23 tube stations—showed prices for paper tickets. Passengers will have to buy widespread concern about the threat of ticket office tickets online, if they can, or at shops, and they will closures: 71% of London Underground passengers have to find the correct ticket on the self-service machines. interviewed said that they were “quite concerned” or Experienced tube workers have said clearly that there “very concerned” about their station no longer having are real fears that errors or problems with tickets will no staffed ticket offices Concerns were particularly strong longer be resolved at stations, because there will be no among tourists travelling on the underground, with ticket office and of course the shops that sell tickets 81% saying that they would be “quite”or “very concerned” cannot help with such problems—nor is that their role. in the event of ticket office closures—no doubt because of their reliance on the offices for general information. Mr Virendra Sharma: The role of the staff at the station is not only to sell the tickets or clean the station, Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): but to assist the passengers, whether children, women, My hon. Friend has called a very important debate the disabled or visitors who come to the city and do not today on something that is affecting all our constituents understand the workings of the underground system, who use the underground. Does he share my particular such as moving through the stations from one platform concern for women who are travelling, perhaps to and to another. Staff are guiding passengers. Once they are from work late at night or with their children? They will taken away, individuals and groups will be suffering. I not have a sense of safety and security in underground hope that my hon. Friend agrees that once the cut has stations and on platforms. They need to have that been made, visitors and passengers will feel that they reassurance that it is safe to travel and that they will are not getting such services. have support when they need it, should anything happen. John McDonnell: My hon. Friend is right that certain John McDonnell: Safety and security is a critical categories of passengers will be affected the most. To issue. Later, I will come on to some of the statistics that finish on the subject of tickets, however, the Survation we have looked at, including research specific to women. survey found that there was little confidence about Perhaps the Minister will pass back to the Mayor of relying solely on the automatic ticket-vending machines: London that the same Survation survey found that 52% said that they had been unable to buy tickets in the 49% of underground passengers who were resident in past, due to the machine being broken. Obtaining Greater London would be “much less likely”or “somewhat information on the correct price and travel advice are less likely” to vote for a candidate for Mayor of London also important, as my hon. Friend says. 309WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 310WH

[John McDonnell] There will be an impact on efficiency—all the expert evidence that we have collected says exactly that. Station New forms of ticket retail have become increasingly staff play an important role in keeping the trains moving, available, but surveys have shown that passengers value such as helping the trains to depart promptly, reporting the face-to-face contact with staff, even for simply navigating faults and providing information and advice during around the complex ticket pricing system. The Department service disruption. Station staff work with other London for Transport’s own review of ticketing acknowledges Underground staff, such as drivers and service controllers, Passenger Focus research that found that to keep the tube running. If there are fewer staff in “passengers are more confident with ticket offices than any other stations, the train service will suffer. The London sales channel of obtaining the best value ticket for their journey”. Underground plans to remove station supervisors from In response to announcements in recent years about many stations will slow down service recovery during main line railway ticket office closures and reduced and after disruption. opening hours, Passenger Focus stated that Station supervisors also play a critical safety role. “passengers really value the presence of staff at stations. Any London Underground plans that such essential staff reduction in ticket-office opening hours and the subsequent withdrawal will be in charge of several stations at the same time, so of booking staff often reduces the overall facilities available at they will be unable to deal in person with the many stations… We fear that this could lead to passengers feeling less safety incidents and issues. It intends to plug some of safe at stations and paying more for their tickets than they the gaps in staff coverage with a casualised work force should.” of agency staff, as well as having office staff who Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I am extremely occasionally work on stations, away from their normal grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, and I echo duties and with minimal training. In many people’s the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for view, that will compromise safety. I agree. Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) in praising him for bringing the subject before the House. I also associate Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): My hon. myself with my former colleague in London Transport, Friend has obviously focused on the implications for my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall London. I represent a constituency in the midlands, and (Mr Sharma)—he and I were bus conductors together. I my real fear is that if Boris Johnson and London speak from a position of some knowledge in this matter. Underground get away with these reckless cuts to staffing on stations on the London Underground network today, None of the tube stations in my constituency are it will be the midland main line and other surface fully accessible. It may not be the duty of station staff railway networks around the country tomorrow. Does to assist people up and down stairs, but it is something my hon. Friend share that fear? that they do, and they do it willingly. How in heaven’s name are people struggling with buggies, on walking sticks or with walking aids going to manage without John McDonnell: My hon. Friend has made a valuable that good will if the people, however willing, simply are point. What happens in London is usually the example not there? that is then rolled out to the rest of the country. This issue is critical not just for London but nationally. John McDonnell: That is the running theme through Ministers have a role in this matter, which should not all the comments we have had. just be left to the Mayor of London. The Campaign for Better Transport stated: There are already issues with station staffing as there “Plans to close ticket offices and cut staff in stations will mean have been cuts in the past. In outer London, many passengers are left to fend for themselves when buying a ticket stations are already neglected and are not well staffed. and will result in people paying over the odds for their journey.” Transport for London responded to questions from If there are 17% fewer staff to help passengers, then members of the Greater London assembly on this matter what? As my hon. Friends have said, staff help with by saying that on average stations have to be closed on incidents, accidents, advice on what route to take, directions 120 occasions a year due to staff shortages. to local venues or addresses, disability access needs, lost property and yes, lost children and everything else, as Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I apologise well as service updates and many more issues that passengers for arriving only recently and missing the first part of cannot deal with on their own or via a machine. The my hon. Friend’s contribution. Is he aware of the situation remaining station staff, to be frank, will be less available facing Finsbury Park station? It is almost unique on the to help with travel and other inquiries, because they will network in having no barriers because of its size, and it be busy helping people to use the ticket machines who is grossly overcrowded, with no step-free access. Without would have previously have sought help at the ticket staff, the station would turn from being dangerous into office. being positively lethal because of the number of people crowding on to the platforms every morning trying to Passengers also need some types of help that a station get on to very overcrowded trains. The policy is disastrous. supervisor has to deal with, in particular the more complex issues for a more senior level of staff. Now there is a station supervisor in every station, but under John McDonnell: I know the station concerned. My London Underground’s plans, they will be removed hon. Friend has campaigned on the matter on a number from many stations and responsible for a number of of occasions, and he has liaised with the staff there. stations instead, so that they might have to travel from Trade unions have raised the issue as well. It is lunacy to another station to help passengers. Staff will be expected start removing staff from stations such as that one. to work on several stations over a wider area, so they We have been here before. Some hon. Members might will be less familiar with the area the station is in and remember previous debates on the issue, because London they will often be working in isolation. Underground management in particular do not have a 311WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 312WH good track record in anticipating passenger need. Members Turning to the issue of security raised by my hon. might remember that after axing 800 staff the previous Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema year, in 2010, London Underground was forced to Malhotra), in 2012-13, there were 1,897 incidents of recruit an additional 300 staff as a result of passenger violence on the tube. That number is rising. People have complaints about safety and security and the campaign commented on the problems caused by cuts to mainline that a number of Members who are here today waged stations. For example, Anthony Smith, the chief executive alongside the trade unions. of Passenger Focus, has said that My worry is about safety in all its aspects. I am “all our research indicates passengers really like the reassurance worried about both preventing and tackling terrorist only the presence of staff can bring. Taking staff away from attacks. Adequate staff numbers are absolutely essential stations would represent a very short-term, short-sighted saving.” both in preventing terror attacks and dealing with the The Independent Social Research report of 2009, aftermath when they happen. “Passengers’ Perceptions of Personal Security on Public Transport”, said: Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I “The presence of uniformed staff provided a sense of order apologise for not being present for the opening of the and authority, and gave passengers confidence that anti-social debate. Is the problem of safety not even further exacerbated behaviour would be challenged. Women and older people in by the proposal to close so many London fire stations? particular were reassured by staffing initiatives, and often commented that seeing staff on trains, stations and at bus stations made them feel safer.” John McDonnell: We all feel under assault as Londoners I will quote another source, the work done by Kerry at the moment because of what is happening to our Hamilton of the university of East London on women emergency services. Through the combination of losing and transport in 2005. Many of us have complimented staff from stations and the cuts to the fire service and to her on that work, and she said that policing, we feel as if our emergency services are being stretched to breaking point. If we asked the front-line “women feel more vulnerable to attack and harassment than men and their greater concern with personal security...This deep concern staff, who are the real experts, they would tell us that about personal security has important implications for the design as well. of transport interchanges and waiting areas and for staffing Staff on stations play a role in the prevention of levels...Therefore the quality and level of staffing on vehicles and terrorist attacks as well as dealing with the aftermath. It at bus and rail stations is of vital importance.” is absolutely ironic that the tube staff who were applauded A former colleague, Vera Baird QC, was commissioned for their heroism during the London bombings are the by the Labour party to write a report called “Everywoman ones whose jobs are being cut by the Mayor and who Safe Everywhere”. That report states: are being treated shabbily in the way in which the “A significant number of respondents to the consultation announcements are being made. I remember the statement raised concerns about cuts to travel budgets and services and the from the Transport for London board in July 2005. corresponding impact on that could have on women’s perceptions I will quote from it now: of safety.” “The Board would like to express its heartfelt thanks to all TfL Removal of station and train staff and the closure of staff who worked so professionally and tirelessly in extremely ticket offices were chief among those concerns. A 2012 challenging conditions immediately following the attacks. Their survey showed that 28% of women and 15% of men do selfless actions to help those who had been injured is a testament not feel safe using London public transport at all times to the quality and calibre of public transport workers in London.” of the day and night. We have to get that message across It is those staff whose jobs are now at risk or are to be somehow to Government Ministers and to the Mayor. cut. Their bravery was also praised in the official inquiry There is also an issue with access. I am worried about into the bombings. I will quote an extract from The the increased problems with accessibility that have been Independent in 2010: mentioned. Ultimately, a station that is accessible for “London Underground staff ignored concerns for their own someone with a disability means a station with staff. safety and rushed to help victims of the 7/7 bombings, the inquest There is no cheap and staff-free alternative that protects into the deaths of the 52 people killed heard”. accessibility. Stations must keep their ticket offices open I will quote a citation for one member of staff, Mr Falayi, to facilitate information provision and assistance. That who was at Aldgate station, and was told at the inquest: was confirmed by a report into the usability of ticket “You were very brave and I’m sure the efforts you made, vending machines by Passenger Focus in 2010, which despite the risk to yourself, to save and help people there at that stated: dreadful scene will provide some comfort to those who have either “Unsurprisingly, passengers with disabilities can find TVMs lost people or who themselves were dreadfully injured.” difficult and frustrating to use and reported various barriers It is those workers who are now going to lose their jobs, during the interviews”. and when those jobs go, it will undermine the safety of A whole series of people came forward to express their the travelling public. concerns. For example, on people with vision impairments, It is not just a question of terrorist attacks; there are the report said: also operational accidents. One example is people who “Using TVMs can present a significant challenge for vision- go on to the line: in September 2012, a member of impaired passengers as the nature of their disability can vary station staff jumped on to the line to save a child. significantly…Vision impairments are all different; some people During the Notting Hill carnival there was an incident can see better in less light, some can see better in more light, so it’s difficult.” in which the car barriers had broken, but as a result of cuts there were no staff to try to ensure that passengers People need assistance. did not go on to a live line. That demonstrates to Wheelchair users are extremely worried now about management that there are heightened risks of that type what is going to happen. The overriding issue for them of accident once staff are removed from stations. is the lack of accessibility of ticket vending machines. 313WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 314WH

[John McDonnell] be cut at another 125 smaller tube stations, with just one member of staff at certain stations at certain times The Passenger Focus report on ticket vending machines of day. stated that even machines that are compliant with the At the moment, London Underground offers disabled Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and older passengers a turn-up-and-go assistance service, “can be difficult for some wheelchair users, particularly those in which it provides help with buying tickets, planning who are elderly or lack the upper body strength or mobility to routes and getting to the right platform, without passengers reach the touch screen. Neither of the wheelchair users was able having to book in advance. That assistance gives thousands to position themselves close enough to the TVM to use the touch of disabled Londoners the confidence to travel. Many screen in the same way as other respondents. One attempted a side-on approach which got her closer, but she found the twisting believe that that will be lost. motion required to touch the screen awkward and uncomfortable The recent introduction of manual boarding ramps and she still experienced problems with the reach distance.” at 35 stations opened up many more routes to wheelchair There is a threat to the safety of disabled and older users, but those ramps depend on a member of staff people. I bitterly regret to say that many disabled people operating them. If the staff cuts go ahead, fewer staff have experienced hate crimes at stations, and staff are will be able to operate the ramps on top of other tasks. the key to deterring that abuse. The cuts will be a nightmare for many people who suddenly saw their world opening up as a result of A Survation survey of 1,031 disabled and older people increased accessibility following investment over the in April 2013 showed that enhancing personal security past 15 or 16 years. Now, we are denying them that. and safety was ranked consistently as the most important benefit that staff provide to disabled passengers. The There is a fear that without the fixed point of a response on CCTV is interesting: staffed ticket office, visually impaired people will find it harder to locate staff to assist them. Passengers at “CCTV cameras can never replace the staff in making passengers feel safe.” stations other than mainline stations will have to find a member of staff somewhere on the platform, if they can I fully agree. In that survey, 27% of respondents claim find one at all. to have suffered hate crimes or abuse at railway stations, and 25% said they sometimes or often feel unsafe; nine There have been contradictory answers to questions out of 10 passengers thought station staff were generally tabled in the London assembly and in Parliament. On polite and helpful. Enhancing personal security and 18 December 2013, Labour members of the London safety was consistently ranked top of the range of assembly tabled written questions asking the Mayor benefits that station and train staff provide, and 81% of what assessment he had made of the impact of the cuts disabled passengers said that reduced staff numbers on women, disabled people and older passengers. The would make train travel more difficult for them. answer on 7 January was that officers are drafting a response that will be sent shortly. That was despite the I will not labour the point much longer because other fact that parliamentary questions had been answered hon. Members want to speak, but let me list some by Ministers; they said that London Underground had organisations that represent disabled people and to carried out a quality impact assessment to identify the which we should listen. The London Visual Impairment impact of the Mayor’s proposals, and that it showed Forum said that staff on London that the changes will be positive or neutral for all “underground trains are…excellent…If there are cuts to underground equality target groups. Either Ministers have got it station and ticket office staff this could reduce the assistance right, or the Mayor has. Someone should tell us the offered to blind and partially sighted and other disabled passengers.” truth of what has happened with the Mayor’s overall Transport For All expressed its opposition, and cited assessment. example after example of different forms of disability There will be dangers to staff and we should not requiring a personal touch and understanding by another underestimate that. The cuts pose a significant threat to human being, rather than a machine. staff safety and morale. The official documentation presented to the unions on the day when the cuts were Glenda Jackson: The issue is not only about people announced was pretty damning. It said that not only with disabilities. People with chronic illnesses could would 1,000 posts be on the line, but the remaining staff previously have got a black cab or even an ambulance to would be forced to reapply for their jobs, and in addition take them to regular appointments, but that has virtually would have to work in conditions that even on London gone. A constituent who had just come out of hospital Underground’s own assessment will carry a medium collapsed on the platform at Swiss Cottage station, and risk to their safety. It also said that employees will be if there had been no staff there, he would have been left “confused, demoralized or distracted due to uncertainty…during” entirely without assistance. the HR process. It continued: “Although there are lone supervisors today this proposal would John McDonnell: Example after example has been mean employees at a lower grade would be working alone and given. Thoughtistic, which represents people on the may increase employee perception of vulnerability, especially for autistic spectrum, says that some people on that spectrum minority groups at particular risk of abuse.” are not capable of using, or willing to use, automated That is where we are at. The level of cuts will put systems, and respond better to personal intervention. passengers at risk, demoralise staff and undermine the Example after example has been given and submitted overall service. to the Mayor for consideration, but he has ploughed ahead. The argument that has come back is that gateway Mr Lammy: Does my hon. Friend agree that, in the stations—King’s Cross, St Pancras and Victoria—will conversation about cuts, it has been hugely disappointing have one third more staff, but that means that staff will that the Mayor has had nothing to say about how 315WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 316WH alternative revenue might be found? He could lift the by this proposal; every person travelling on the London borrowing requirements for TfL. He could allow local underground will suffer a degraded level of service as a authorities and the Greater London authority to keep result of these proposals. 100% of London property taxes; that might be a way of supporting Transport for London. There are alternatives, John McDonnell rose— and we have not heard enough about them. Does he Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. I remind the agree? hon. Gentleman that others wish to speak in this debate. The Front-Bench spokesmen will begin speaking at John McDonnell: Not completely. The alternative, as 3.40 pm. That leaves us with only half an hour for other my right hon. Friend said, is investment, growth, and Members to participate, so will he please draw his tax collection. Interestingly, today we received a brief comments to a close? from the London assembly arguing for that specifically. My right hon. Friend’s proposal is supported by the John McDonnell: I will conclude by quickly refuting London assembly, and the Mayor should listen, as some more of TfL’s arguments. TfL said that other should the Government. countries’ underground systems manage without staff There is an alternative if we invest, but the growth in or ticket offices. The London underground has won the number of passengers must be recognised. London international recognition and awards largely due to Underground faces cuts not because of falling demand, having station staff and a good service; many other but the opposite. Since 1996, there has been a 60% metros do not. If we level the service down, it will increase in passenger numbers. Transport for London’s undermine the whole level of service. In Washington, business plan predicts that passenger journeys will rise which removed all staff and moved to a fully automated by 13.7% from 1.273 billion in 2013-14 to 1.448 billion system, the press, after another accident, called the lack in 2020-21. The same plan predicts that the population of safety the “price of parsimony”. TfL said that new growth in London will be to 10 million in 2030. The technology means that the London underground needs alternative to cuts is to accept reality, and that sheer fewer staff. New technology can improve the London passenger demand will require London Underground underground, but only if it is used alongside, not instead to take on more staff, not fewer. of, staffing. Too often, TfL uses increased mechanisation In recent decades, various London Underground as an excuse for getting rid of jobs. contracts were taken over by private companies. That Frankly, we need some clarity on all this. The Minister has caused public money to leave the system while has a role to play in what goes on in London. This bureaucracy and inefficiency has increased. Some of debate is an opportunity for us to ask him to intervene. those contracts have since returned to the public sector, Will he clarify exactly what the discussions were between as hon. Members know, including those relating to the Government and the Mayor that led to the decision Metronet, Jubilee line train maintenance and London to make these cuts in this way? Ministers have a role to Underground’s power supply. TfL saved £56 million by play and one thing the Minister could do is impress on bringing power supply back into London Underground the Mayor that there has been no public consultation to at a lower than expected cost. It expects that to bring date on these cuts. It would be helpful if he joined us significant savings in future years that will more than and urged the Mayor to consult Londoners. We are offset the initial cost. making a simple request: listen to Londoners. The Re-integrating Metronet has provided London Minister might be able to help us get some clarity on the Underground with an ongoing year-on-year saving; it contradictory statements by Ministers and the Mayor was £53 million in 2012-13. If TfL re-integrated other on the equality impact assessment. elements of London Underground that were previously I am really worried about safety. The Minister has a privatised, it would save significant sums of money. role to play in meeting the Mayor to look at what That could include tube lines that are in public ownership assessment has been made of safety in light of the but not integrated with the rest of the tube. I am talking threats of terrorist attacks and the potential for accidents. about cleaning, catering, ticket machine maintenance, The Mayor has not met the unions for six years. Will the engineering contracts, Northern line train maintenance Minister join us in urging the Mayor to meet the unions? and recruitment. Secretaries of State and Ministers of this Government Let me finally counter some of the arguments that meet trade unions almost daily, including the TUC, the TfL put forward, some of which are bizarre. TfL has general secretaries, and others from other unions. The said that only 3% of journeys involve a visit to a ticket Mayor should at least do that, too. He owes that debt to office, but that is 100,000 people a day. Even if the the unions that represent these staff. The Minister could majority do not visit ticket offices, it is essential that play a valuable role here. If he does not, London MPs there is a service for those passengers who do. TfL has will have to play it. We will join in with those campaigns, said that London Underground’s plan will make its with passengers and with trade unions, to try to ensure staff more visible around the stations. I find that difficult that the staff are protected and our ticket offices stay to believe when 950 staff—17% of existing staff—will open. be removed. Staff will be scattered around the station, rather than at one location. 3.14 pm Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): On (Con): I had not planned to speak in this debate, but the redeploying staff from ticket offices, the crux of the picture painted by the hon. Member for Hayes and matter is that increasing visibility is incompatible with Harlington (John McDonnell) differs in almost every losing the best part of 1,000 front-line jobs that deal respect from the briefing I have had from London with the London travelling public. It is not just those Underground. I hope that the Minister will be able to with special needs and disabilities who will be affected extract the facts when he responds to the debate. 317WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 318WH

[Dame Angela Watkinson] I assume that “embrace change” means transferring from back-office jobs and ticket offices, and being available I am an enormous fan of the London underground. I for passengers in public areas, and that sounds like an use the tube all the time and it is by far the easiest way improvement to the service. From what I have read, the of getting round London. It is quicker than buses and is changes will be an improvement, rather than detrimental. certainly quicker than a car or taxi. I am someone who The real point of difference is on whether there will be gets lost very readily at ground level, but I know exactly staff cuts, and the briefing from London Underground where I am on the tube. I have four stations in my says that there will be no compulsory redundancies. constituency. Although they are not underground, they To conclude, I quote the London chamber of commerce are the last four stations on the District line. and industry, which said: Some 1.2 billion journeys were made on the London “London businesses want the Tube to provide the best customer underground last year. It is an enormous task to get service possible.” that many people from A to B efficiently, effectively and We all want that; everyone would agree on that. It safely. There are some 3.5 million journeys every day. I continued: pay tribute to the exceptional standards of customer “In an era where less than three percent of Tube journeys service provided by London Underground during the involve a visit to a ticket office, it makes sense that this service is London Olympics last year. That was a great success provided by staff at ticket machines and on the gateline, not stuck and a feather in its cap. It is planning to introduce a new behind a glass panel. LCCI understands London Underground’s 24-hour service from 2015, and I know from travelling practical reforms will increase the number of staff interacting late at night on the underground that the trains are with the public, no station will be left unstaffed.” always full. If someone was not wearing a watch, they I hope that the Minister will extract the facts from the would not know that it was late at night; it could be any very different account we have heard, so that we understand time of day. There is a demand for the service. exactly what is proposed. The proposals will see more staff in public areas, which is where the tube customers need them. Several 3.19 pm scenarios have been described in which passengers will Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) need personal intervention, help or advice from personnel (Lab): As we have heard, 3.5 million journeys are made on the stations—passengers such as women travelling on the tube every day. Millions of Londoners use the alone at night, of whom I am one. I do not happen to tube every day, and, next to housing, public transport is feel unsafe, but some people might. Other scenarios one of the most important issues for ordinary Londoners’ include terrorist attacks, people falling on to the line—it health and well-being. Londoners have been fortunate: is rare, but unfortunately it does happen from time to under the visionary stewardship of Ken Livingstone, time—wheelchair users needing help or advice, someone first as leader of the Greater London Council and then collapsing or falling ill on a station, and someone who is as Mayor of London, millions were invested in London autistic needing things explained to them if they do not Underground, to do up stations and for new services— understand. In all those scenarios, what is needed is notably the Overground line, of which I am a happy advice, which is more readily available under these user every day. I pay my respects to the people who staff proposals. Staff will be in the ticket hall or on the Haggerston station. I congratulate Sir Peter Hendy, platforms—in the public areas of the stations—rather whose stewardship of London Underground in good than behind glass at the ticket office. In those scenarios, times and bad has been exemplary. The way he delivered the proposals will be an improvement on the current and kept London moving during the Olympics has been situation. noted on all sides. Perhaps one day a statue will be As we have heard, there are many ways to buy tickets raised to him—by public subscription, of course, not and only 3% of journeys involve a visit to the ticket paid for by taxpayers. office. If there were more staff in the ticket hall who Until now, I should have said that Transport for were more accessible and could be spoken to, person to London has been able to withstand the worst that Boris person, passengers’ problems might be resolved without Johnson could try to do to it; but now it is proposed, in the need to go to the ticket office. London Underground one fell swoop and without consultation, to close every said: single ticket office. I listened to the explanations read from the Transport for London briefing of why that is a “Our core commitment is that all stations will be staffed and controlled at all times when trains are running and that there will good idea; but they sounded like the views of people be more staff visible and available to help customers.” who do not use the underground. People who use it will have seen the queues outside ticket offices every day, That sounds like the sort of thing that is needed and is particularly on a Monday morning. What are the people an improvement on current circumstances. I am not who queue up going to do? People who use the underground clear why it is being opposed. The briefing continued: will know how often the machines do not work or “The current ‘turn up and go’ assistance service for disabled gobble up money; they will understand that even in a and visually impaired passengers and the disability training given relatively small tube station such as Westminster, there to staff, will continue.” are hundreds of tourists whose first language is not One thing puzzles me. I have heard a lot from Opposition English, who need someone to talk to. Members about staff cuts, but London Underground’s It is all well and good to come to the Chamber and briefing states: read out the Transport for London briefing; we are “We have made a firm commitment to the staff affected by talking about the realities of London Underground, these changes that no compulsory redundancies will be made and and the reality for the people who must use it, whether it is our intention that there will be a job for everyone who wants they are regular commuters, people from out of town or to stay working with LU and who is willing to embrace change.” the thousands of tourists who throng through tube 319WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 320WH stations in zones 1 and 2 every day. As the House has It is extraordinary for someone to have been the already heard, the millions of London commuters whose Mayor of a great city such as London for six years but fares are being ratcheted up do not understand why still never to have met the representatives of the people they are paying more to travel when the level of service who provide the services for which he is responsible. He may well come down. It is not enough to say, as Transport has time to meet every banker in the City and to travel for London does, that it is because so many people now to every city in the world, but does not, apparently, have use Oyster cards. We need to think about out-of-town time to invite the union representatives of the people business, the elderly and disabled, and tourists, and providing TfL services to his office to tell him their weigh up the promises that there will be more staff on views about it. He needs to get a grip on what democratic the stations to help commuters. accountability is about. The first thing to consider is how commuters see the I drew attention to Finsbury Park station in an proposal and how much hostility there is to the closing intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes down of every ticket office on the network. Many and Harlington because it is the one I use the most. members of my family have worked in transport, and I Indeed, some of my colleagues in the Chamber today would always argue that London Underground is only use it too. It is old, busy and getting much busier, and is as good as its staff. Those staff have in good and bad an interchange between Network Rail and the Piccadilly times shown London Underground exemplary loyalty and Victoria lines. It is not well laid out and was never and a deal of flexibility. On 7/7, they showed how brave well designed, and it has no ticket barriers; there is and committed they were. What are they being given nowhere to put them. There are plans to change the for all those years of commitment—for building the station, but the changes are some years away. That underground service that still serves Londoners so well? means the station becomes very overcrowded, and frequently The answer is up to 1,000 job losses and on top of that, in the morning rush hour staff must stand in the street and in my view worse, a drive to employ more agency and ask the public not to come in until the numbers on and casualised staff. We are moving away from secure, the platform can be reduced. There is no physical way stable jobs that offer a lifetime career to casualised to stop them because of the lack of barriers. employment. As a general point, I deplore the hollowing There is a First Capital Connect ticket office and out of London’s economy through the replacement of another for London Underground. For reasons that are stable—and, yes, unionised—jobs with casualised agency beyond me, each seems to deal only with its own business. workers. That cannot be in the interests of a stable It should be possible for them to deal with each other’s society and stable employment in London. business. The ticket office is very busy, with people I am a regular user of London Transport services and making inquiries about Oyster cards, lost Oyster cards, I bow to no one in my respect for what it has achieved, or student travel; there are people using the freedom particularly under a Labour leader and then a Labour pass, who may have mislaid it or have a problem using Mayor—and I am an admirer of Sir Peter Hendy and it, and people simply trying to buy tickets or find where all his work. However, passengers and staff oppose the to go. They get a good response and good help from the cutting of every ticket office without consultation. All very hard-working staff in that station. If the ticket the polling shows that the majority of passengers are office is closed, what are they supposed to do? The hon. unhappy. Boris has yet to explain, certainly to London Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela MPs, how the proposal can possibly improve the service. Watkinson) gaily told us that only a small percentage of We know that more and more people are using Oyster the total number of travellers will be affected, but as the cards and that Ken Livingstone introduced a smaller hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington said, that is programme of closures when he was the Mayor, but 100,000 people a year, or the equivalent of a bit more now we face the elimination of every ticket office on the than a full Wembley stadium. Would we really have network. That cannot be right. I shall fight the closures Wembley stadium operating with only ticket machines on behalf of ordinary Londoners, staff and a London and no staff? Think about the numbers and the potential that works—a stable community that offers jobs and for problems by not having fully staffed ticket offices. life chances to its citizens. That is the only kind of When we make this plea, we do so to retain jobs, London that has a future in the 21st century. obviously, and to ensure that the public are properly represented and dealt with in ticket offices. We also do it Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): I ask hon. Members from the point of view of station safety, because, in the to keep their contributions to three minutes from now days when not enough staff were at the stations and on, so that everyone gets a chance to speak. there were only, quite often, inoperative CCTV cameras inadequately guaranteeing the safety of passengers, the number of assaults went up and the number of passengers 3.26 pm at night went down, and the number of people trying to Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I repeat my drive in and out of London went up while the number apology for missing the beginning of the speech by my of public transport users went down. As my hon. Friend hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (John McDonnell). I have a brief time to speak, and (Ms Abbott) pointed out, if we run a good public want to express my admiration for the people who work transport system that is well staffed and well run, more for London Underground. It carried 4 million passengers people use it, our city is less congested, and it has a in a day during the Olympics, and despite the best much better sense of community. advice of the Evening Standard in the run-up to the Through the medium of this debate, I make an appeal games the staff performed brilliantly. The service was to the Mayor: think again. Meet the staff representatives, delivered throughout the Olympic games, as it is every understand what the ticket offices are there for and day, by willing staff at all the stations. We should think what they do, and reverse this crazy policy and retain about that—as should the Mayor. staffed ticket offices on every station, as we have now. 321WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 322WH

3.31 pm every part of our transport system. That is why I have Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I will spoken today, and I hope that the voice will come very be brief, because I appreciate that others want to speak. clearly from this place that these proposals are not in I make reference not only to my entries in the Register anybody’s interests. of Members’ Financial Interests, but to my membership 3.35 pm of the RMT, TSSA, and ASLEF parliamentary groups— I thank them for the briefings that they have provided Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve for the debate, which are quite different from the under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate briefings from Transport for London, which have been my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington referred to. (John McDonnell) on an excellent, powerful and factual contribution, and I shall bear in mind the fact that I I am speaking in this debate because I believe that if have about three minutes. the proposals for job cuts and ticket office closures in London go ahead, they will come to areas such as the London underground is not only a London issue—I one I represent next. If those closures are possible in am a north-east MP and I have great interest in what London, where there is massive public opposition and a happens to the underground. This is the nation’s capital. strong, well organised, trade unionised work force, which, It is where we held the Olympics, and where we have frankly, has a tradition of taking industrial action, that fantastic cultural events, arts and leisure, and international will make it very difficult to fight similar threats in other football and rugby games. We have all seen the chaos parts of the country. However, I assure anybody who is that often occurs on the underground. listening that we will fight any attempt to reduce staff in I place on record my thanks to the fantastic work other parts of the country, and in Ayrshire in particular. force who work tirelessly 365 days a year to provide the The reality is that it is in none of our interests to have London Underground’s services. They are fantastic. a transport system that does not have staff and people Look at the tourists from across the globe; we want as on it to look after passengers, but that is our current many people coming to London as possible. We do not direction of travel, to use a pun. We are talking about want to keep them away for fear of having a dreadful approximately 1,000 job losses as a result of the 240 ticket service in London. Look at the people who work on the office closures in London, affecting not only ticket underground and the valuable contribution that they office staff but supervisory staff, managerial positions make to the economy, and yet we think nothing of and staff in control rooms. It is happening as part of slashing jobs and stations at the cross of a pen. Millions Government proposals to take staff away from our of ordinary people use the underground as a means of whole public transport system, and in particular the getting across London to work. We have to consider railways and the tube lines. That is why this debate and all that. this dispute are relevant to every part of the country. In the minute or so I have left, I mention that this is It is common sense that we need people to help us not a failing organisation. As my hon. Friend the Member when we use our trains, and we need people on stations for Hayes and Harlington said, passenger journeys on to assist us. Whether that involves buying a ticket, finding London underground will rise by 13.75%, from 1,273 million the appropriate platform, finding a trolley to put a bag to 1,448 million by 2021. London Underground is a on, helping people on to the train or helping them once flourishing organisation, which needs more staff, better they are on the train, it is something we all need and health and safety and a whole new structure to cater for something for which I believe there is cross-party support. the people who will use the service. I cannot understand how the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster I say to everyone in the House that this dispute is not (Dame Angela Watkinson) can suggest, even with the only about London Underground, but about the service best brief in the world, that closing the 240 ticket offices that all our constituents receive. We should be sending a and cutting 950 jobs will be an improvement to the very clear message not only to Transport for London service. Perhaps somebody can explain to me how it will and to the Mayor but to Government in this place and improve it. We need to make sure that the service is top throughout these islands that we want a public transport class and stop cutting the jobs, and we need to make system with people to help us on the platforms, in ticket sure that the service is there, embracing people from offices and on trains. across the globe, and to get to grips with reality. Stephen Pound: I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees 3.39 pm that the Minister is a decent man. He regularly uses the District line and is frequently seen on the Wimbledon Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I have only a run, but I fear that he may be seduced by the arguments minute left to speak, but there are plenty of things that that we have heard today, which are the same as those I want to say. I rise to contribute to the debate as a used when my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, part-time Londoner, even though I represent a constituency Southall (Mr Sharma) and I were bus conductors. We 120 miles from the capital. I emphasise that to me this is were told that without conductors, the buses would be part of a wider ideological assault on the public sector safe, but in fact, crime has rocketed on the buses. Does and on public services. We have heard eloquent testimony my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and today from hon. Members about the contribution that Arran (Katy Clark) agree that there is real fear, not only London Underground staff make to ensuring that we about public insecurity and a lack of public safety, but have a quality service. We should be proud of and about an increase in crime in unmanned, empty, echoing cherish the personal attention that they give members halls? of the public. The Minister should use his good offices to ensure that the Mayor recognises the important role Katy Clark: I agree with my hon. Friend; I do not that those staff play and that the Mayor meets their think we want to have to deal with machines all the trade union representatives, so that he can hear directly time. We want to have staff to help us in stations and on from them and, we hope, they can change his mind. 323WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 324WH

3.40 pm implications for their local rail services. When almost 1,000 station staff are losing their jobs, it is simply not Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): It is a credible for the Mayor to say that that will not lead to pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. any reduction in passenger service and safety standards. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on securing this important debate. He is a tenacious advocate for better Chris Williamson: Does my hon. Friend agree that public transport and was right to say that London this is also a matter of trust? I say that because the Underground’s quality of service is now under threat. Mayor is on record as saying in March 2010: There are two closely related issues in the debate, and “This Mayor takes his promises to Londoners extremely seriously. Every station that has a ticket office will continue to have one.” I would like to begin with the question of station staffing levels, because the staffing reductions on the underground He made that solemn pledge; he could not have been weigh heavily on the minds of many Londoners who clearer. This is a matter of trust, is it not? rely on current levels of customer service to undertake their daily journeys. Of course, that is to say nothing of Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend is exactly right. I those Londoners whose jobs are at risk. would say that the Mayor has now lost any credibility Every passenger may experience inconvenience if staffing that he might once have had on this issue. Not only did levels are reduced. How many of us have come across he make those comments in 2010 but in his 2008 manifesto faulty barriers or ticket machines, but have known he was unequivocal: exactly where to find help? How many of us knew where “We will halt all such ticket office closures immediately.” to go for advice when a service was cancelled, especially I know that the Mayor has had a high-profile falling-out late at night? Clearly, it was the ticket office. Just with the Deputy Prime Minister, but perhaps he should yesterday, I arrived on the platform down at Westminster have some sympathy with him, because he was to find services disrupted, so I could not travel by tube photographed signing a petition that called for an end and needed a refund on my Oyster card. I knew that to that service would be provided quickly and courteously “the closure of station ticket offices” by staff in the ticket office, and of course it was. and the reopening of Such experiences are common to us all, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington set “those which have already been closed.” out very clearly, we know that Boris Johnson’s plans to In a particularly florid turn of phrase, the Mayor said at close all ticket offices and cut 17% of station staff will the time: hit disabled passengers particularly hard. These are “Consider the threat has been lifted, annihilated, vaporised, passengers who Transport for All has warned could face liquidated, exterminated, removed and obliterated as of now”. new barriers in trying to travel to work, to see friends He later said to Assembly Members: and family and to get out and about in the capital. “The first and most important point to make is no ticket According to Transport for London’s own equality offices will be closed...They are not going to be closed...The impact assessment, customers with dyslexia will be answer to the number of ticket office closures is nil”. particularly affected, as that is On the very same day, a leaked TfL report revealed that “a disability that remains hidden when” closures were indeed being planned, and in November people are we had confirmation that all ticket offices were to be “using a ticket office, but would potentially become known when” shut, so Boris Johnson began as the Mayor who said they are that he would save every ticket office and he will finish as the Mayor who closes every one of them. “requesting assistance at the ticket machine.” If stations are left unstaffed, perceptions of safety There are other long-term considerations that have to will be damaged, discouraging some groups of passengers be addressed, including the future of London Overground in particular from travelling. TfL’s own equality impact which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney assessment states: North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) rightly said, is an excellent service. Services and stations on the West “Concerns about crime and antisocial behaviour tend to affect the travel patterns of women, BAME”— Anglia lines are due to be transferred from Greater Anglia to London Overground next year, and commuters black, Asian and minority ethnic— on those lines will be hoping that the promises made on “Londoners, younger people and…those on lower incomes investment and improvements in service quality will be more…than other groups”. upheld. As the Campaign for Better Transport has A number of my hon. Friends have described some of powerfully argued, the highly visible improvements that the circumstances that demonstrate exactly how important London Overground made in 2007, which included tube workers are in keeping stations safe and feeling putting more staff on stations, have improved passenger safe. satisfaction, driven up revenue and transformed the Let us be clear. This is not a carefully managed, image of many local services. gradual transition to new working practices. All the As Ministers help to oversee the transition of the ticket offices are due to close next year. That suggests lines, will they satisfy themselves that this round of job that it is driven by a political timetable. These proposals losses is not the first step towards returning to the are about McNulty-style cuts to the underground instead poorly staffed, poorly maintained and threatening stations of putting passengers first. I well understand why my that characterised the old Silverlink franchise? If this hon. Friends the Members for Derby North (Chris Minister can give that commitment today, this question Williamson), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) must surely apply: why take that approach to the overground and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) are worried about the but not the underground? 325WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 326WH

[Lilian Greenwood] assessing the impact of the planned cuts, clarifying the position on the £20 million black hole in TfL’s budget Unfortunately, recent relations between the Government and ensuring that this chaotic situation never arises and the Mayor’s office do not give us cause to hold out again, because Londoners deserve better than this. much hope for the future. Several of my hon. Friends have raised concerns about TfL’s funding. The current 3.49 pm dispute between the Treasury and the Mayor reflects poorly on both parties, but as Labour Members understand, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport ordinary Londoners are the ones set to pay the price. (Stephen Hammond): It is a great pleasure to serve I will give some background. David Goldstone, TfL’s under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. Like other chief finance officer, told London assembly members hon. Members, I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes that and Harlington (John McDonnell) on securing this debate on Government funding for TfL and station “the Mayor made the decision about the average” staffing levels. Let me begin on a consensual note, increase because that may not carry on through my speech. As “across all TfL services being at RPI…at that time we understood the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) the travel cards would have the national RPI-plus-1 formula said, I often use the underground, and I did so this applied. The Chancellor then announced that national rail would morning. I recognised, as I always do, the valuable role be at RPI.” that the workers on the London underground play. This has left TfL with a budget shortfall of £13 million My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and to £14 million a year, and the late application of fare Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) asked whether I rises this year—a result of the confusion between Whitehall would tackle some of the myths and misinformation and the Mayor’s office—means that the bill could rise to that are circulating. I hope that I will be able to reassure £20 million in 2014. There is an apparent refusal by her—I am not sure that I will ever be able to reassure all Treasury Ministers to fund that hole in the Mayor’s Opposition Members—that the changes will make London budget, and that has naturally led to suspicions that underground staff more visible. They will be there to personality politics may be at work. help with ticket barriers, ticket machines and platform Can the Minister provide clarification and say whether safety in a way that has not been seen before. the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the Mayor of London that he intended to restrict fare rises to RPI John McDonnell: The Minister, and possibly the Mayor, before the announcement was made? Will the Treasury might be able to convince people, but in order to convince fund the shortfall, and if not, what estimate has he people it is necessary to meet them. The Minister and made of the impact on TfL’s services that cuts of this his colleagues meet the RMT and other unions regularly. value could have? Is he in contact with the Mayor and Why cannot the Mayor do so? the Treasury on this matter, and what representations has he made to them? I hope that the Minister will Stephen Hammond: I understand the fixation on the address those questions and the questions raised by Mayor, because he is the leader of London. However, other hon. Members, but the truth is that there are Mr Brown, who runs London Underground, meets the enough questions on this issue and these plans to fill a unions, and I understand that Sir Peter Hendy has done much longer debate. the same. With fewer staff available to manage congestion during I was asked several questions, and I will try to answer peak periods, it seems likely that overcrowding will start some of them in the short time that I have. The hon. to have a greater impact on operational performance. Member for Hayes and Harlington asked me about the Violent crime is unfortunately on the rise on the response to a parliamentary question about the planned underground network, and visibility will be reduced, as changes. The response stated that according to the up to 17% of station staff are set to lose their jobs. Staff equality impact assessment, the changes would be will be carrying more expensive equipment as they “positive or neutral for all equality target groups”.—[Official replace ticket-office functions, which could make them Report, 6 January 2014; Vol. 573, c. 121W.] targets for abuse and theft. Of course, the staffing That information was provided to us by TfL, which has reductions will be much higher at some stations, raising also guaranteed that it will run an engagement exercise the prospect that individual members of staff could be throughout this year with disabled and older people to left in unsafe situations, with little flexibility for back-up, ensure that they understand exactly how services will particularly when there are problems on the lines. continue to be accessible. However, it does not seem that the Mayor or TfL The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke have planned for these problems, nor does there seem to Newington (Ms Abbott) spoke about the great achievements be an awareness of the practical challenges that unattended of the previous Mayor, but it is important to recognise ticket machines and barriers pose. We all know that that that under the current Mayor, platform staffing levels is not infallible technology and that without constant have risen by 12% and demand by 23%. The Government supervision, disruption can soon mount up for passengers. recognise that transport is the key to unlocking growth I am concerned that passengers will not necessarily be and jobs, and they provide the financial settlement that able immediately to find staff to help them if they are allows the Mayor to fulfil his responsibilities for transport not in the location where they should be able to find and operational matters. The Government are providing them. more than £10 billion to TfL over the current Parliament, Although most of the matters we have discussed which includes more than £4.5 billion to support the today are the responsibility of the Greater London tube upgrade. The Jubilee line upgrade has been completed. authority, there is an important role for Ministers in The Victoria line upgrade features new trains, tracks 327WH TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)15 JANUARY 2014 TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) 328WH and signalling and a 21% increase in capacity. The the heart of the station; it is simply a room. The staff Metropolitan line has a new fleet of air-conditioned are at the heart of a station’s operation. TfL’s vision for trains. The Government have provided the Mayor with London will allow them to be better equipped with a guarantee that enables him to move ahead with the technology and information in the ticket halls and at proposed Northern line extension to Battersea. The the barriers, so that they can step out of the ticket office upgrade of the sub-surface lines, in which my hon. and improve customers’ journey experience. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster and I take a particular interest, will increase overall Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister assure me that the capacity by 33%. The spending round announcement closure of ticket offices will not be accompanied by yet last summer included a huge commitment of £5.8 billion more retail opportunities at tube stations? in capital grant and a further £3.8 billion of borrowing power for TfL to 2021, which will be absolutely crucial Stephen Hammond: That is an operational matter for to the delivery of Crossrail and the Thameslink project. TfL. The hon. Gentleman should recognise the key The hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian points in TfL’s vision. A 24-hour tube service will run at Greenwood) challenged the Mayor on trust. Memories weekends; the reliability and capacity of the tube will be are short on so many things; I remember the previous further improved with new, more frequent trains; there Mayor telling us in 2004 that there would be no increase will be enhanced signalling at stations; all tube stations in fare levels if he were re-elected, but the following will be controlled and staffed while services are operating; January fares went up by a minimum of 4%. One must and staff will be more visible. TfL aims to deliver be careful when talking about trust, because that contention improvements and secure the best value for money. applies as much to Mayor Livingstone as to Mayor In addition, the vision contains a commitment to the Johnson. The hon. Lady questioned me about fares, staff. My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and and the Mayor has said clearly that the extra Upminster was absolutely right; although some 950 staff accommodation that is needed can be found from TfL’s work in lightly used ticket offices, the overall decrease in budget by a combination of efficiencies and increased station staff will be less than that, because TfL proposes commercial revenue. In the huge budget provided by the to create 200 new jobs in ticket halls and on stations. Government, there is scope for TfL to find the relatively Furthermore, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, TfL small amount that the hon. Lady mentioned. The Mayor has made a commitment to provide a job at London has decided, quite rightly in my opinion, to hold London Underground for anyone who wants to continue working fares down to RPI plus zero. I think it will be possible to there, and the changes will be made with no compulsory find the amount required to do that, and it will be redundancies. sustainable if he continues to deliver efficiencies and Despite the comments about the Mayor, London value for money and ensures that the money that the Underground continues to speak to staff and involve Government give to TfL is best spent. them at various stages of the change. The transformation Everybody has pointed out that London continues to will create 200 new jobs on top of the significant grow. We are set to see a further 1.8 million people by increase in numbers of staff available in ticket halls, at the 2030s, which is enough to fill an extra tube train per barriers and on platforms to provide reassurance about week. It is quite right therefore that TfL set out its safety and to give advice. Those are not the figures vision for the future of the tube on 21 November. The portrayed by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. core commitment at the front of that vision is that all The numbers are available, and I am sure that he will stations will be staffed and controlled when trains are want to look at them. running and there will be more staff visible on platforms I am aware that RMT has announced two 48-hour and in ticket halls to help customers. strikes, and I urge the RMT and TSSA leadership to However we look at it, the way in which passengers work with TfL to shape the plans. Customers want choose to pay for their travel is changing. That is an hassle-free journeys, and they expect customer service incontrovertible fact, even though we may not like the that is fit for the 21st century and beyond. With Government 3% figure. Over the past five years, demand for travel investment, the vision for London ensures that the tube has risen by 23%, but ticket office sales have fallen by will continue to be fit for purpose, safe, affordable and 43%. At the same time, to meet customers’ expectations, reliable, and that it will meet the expectations of passengers station staffing needs to increase. The ticket office is not throughout the 21st century. 329WH 15 JANUARY 2014 Manorial Rights (England and 330WH Wales) Manorial Rights (England and Wales) because of their worry and because they have no idea what the letters mean. Does the hon. Gentleman agree 4pm that that is irresponsible behaviour and that there should be a proper explanation of what it all means? Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I welcome the opportunity to debate manorial rights, which are an Albert Owen: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. A lot important issue across the country. In recent years, of distress and anxiety is caused when people receive concerns have been expressed about chancel repairs and letters not just from individual landowners, but from manorial rights in Wales and England. As the Minister the Land Registry on behalf of title holders. will know, such rights are ancient. In the case of chancel rights, they include the repair of parish churches, particularly Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Will the hon. Gentleman Anglican ones. In the past, manorial rights have covered give way? a number of activities on ancient manorial lands, including shooting, hunting, fishing and mineral extraction. Albert Owen: Before I do, I just want to outline the The matter has been brought to my attention recently foundations of the 2002 Act. It has many positive when residents of my constituency became aware of aspects, such as greater transparency and a clear, up-to-date overriding rights, often by accident or when ownership register, but in recent months it has caused great concern, of titles changed and, once aware, the new owners as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) attempted to exercise their rights. The problem goes described just now, and as my right hon. Friend the back over decades. Chancel repairs and manorial rights Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who cannot be with are very much relics of the past. Many such rights go us today, has indicated is happening in his area, not back to the Domesday Book, and others have evolved least when residents receive letters from the Land Registry. over many centuries. Often, they have lain dormant In many cases, that was the first time people knew of while properties have been built, boundaries extended any such title or overriding rights. and land use changed. People have bought their properties in good faith. They have paid for legal fees for searches and conveyancing and have not been aware that any Hywel Williams: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman overriding rights exist. Many constituents of mine, and and my near neighbour on securing this important people from across the country who have been in touch debate. I agree with him that this situation is an unjust with me on this issue— and clear anachronism that needs to be tackled. He will be glad, of course, that our colleague, Rhun ap Iorwerth 4.2 pm AM, is meeting the Land Registry to discuss this matter Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. next week. Does he agree that the so-called “Lord Treffos” should be thoroughly ashamed of himself for 4.16 pm causing such worry to local people in his constituency On resuming— and, I am sure, elsewhere, with these entirely unjustified claims, as well as causing them expense and possibly Albert Owen: Before the Division, I was outlining, by threatening their mortgages and remortgages too? It is a way of introduction, the origins of chancel repairs and disgrace. manorial rights in Wales and England, and how many people who have become aware of them have done so by Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman pre-empts what accident. I was going to say about Anglesey and Lord Treffos. I Over many years, Parliament has tried to resolve the acknowledge that many people have raised this issue issue of land registration. The Land Transfer Act 1875 with the county council, local councillors and their and the Land Registration Act 1925 sought to update local Assembly Member, and they have taken it forward. the law on registration. The Land Registration Act 2002 I have raised it a number of times in this House and the was introduced following a Law Commission and Land most appropriate place to raise it is in this House of Registry report entitled, “Land Registration for the Parliament, which confers rights on individuals, including 21st Century”, and many of us thought that that was a manorial rights, and which should be protecting the great step forward. The 2002 Act sought to simplify and rights of individuals. modernise the law on registration. The aim was to provide an accurate picture of title of land, showing I will talk about Lord Treffos in a second but, as has more full rights and subsidiary interests affecting the been indicated, this issue has caused concern in my own land; it was also designed to provide protection against constituency because of Lord Treffos’s claims. However, predatory rights and fake claims. I have also been contacted over the weekend by people across Wales and England, including the county of I understand—the Minister may be able to confirm Wiltshire, where a community council is concerned this—that some 20% of land remains unregistered. The about the rights being established—or, rather, it has need in the early 2000s was to try to verify ownership. become aware for the first time of rights being established Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank the —over a playing field for young children. There are hon. Gentleman for securing a debate on an issue that is implications across Wales and England. causing massive concern in my constituency. I look That is why I am pleased that the Minister is here in forward to the Minister’s response, hopefully clarifying Westminster Hall today to respond to the debate, because some of those issues. this is not just a parochial matter. I will make no Landowners such as the Williams-Wynn estate in north apologies for the fact that the purpose of this debate is Wales send letters to people and cause them massive to gain assurances from the Government that they will concern and great expense as they consult solicitors alleviate people’s concerns. It is one of the unintended 331WH Manorial Rights (England and 15 JANUARY 2014 Manorial Rights (England and 332WH Wales) Wales) consequences of the Land Registration Act 2002 that could be—in fact, it needs to be—a single body that could people are being distressed because they were unaware object to manorial rights on behalf of a number of of this situation. households within its jurisdiction. That would be a way An important question is why these manorial rights forward. were not included in original deeds, because many For the benefit of the Minister, I will also examine people paid for conveyancing and searches, believed briefly the role of the Land Registry in the distribution that they had full freehold and were unaware of these of these notices. The explanatory notes to the notices overriding rights. In the 21st century, those people need attempt to clarify the reasons for the notices being the right protection. I want to examine the role of the issued. However, many people have been so concerned Land Registry and how it deals with issuing notices, as that, as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said, well as the legal tone of those notices. Indeed, in my they have gone—at great cost to themselves—to a solicitor part of the world it is important to note that Welsh for clarification, because they found the notice to be a language provision was not available when these notices little threatening and they were certainly unable to were first sent out, when by statute it should have been understand it. Also, as I have already said, there has available. been an issue with the lack of Welsh language provision, I also want to look at the role of the legal authorities, which is not acceptable under current statute. which could perhaps lead in providing collective responses in the future, so that the burden does not fall on Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I am grateful to the individuals. They could also perhaps look to rebalance hon. Gentleman for giving way and for securing this these rights in favour of the freeholder today, to ensure debate this afternoon. Moving away from his constituency that—as the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) to Derbyshire and my constituency of Erewash, an said—mortgage lenders are aware of the benign nature issue has been raised about land owned by the Duke of of these manorial rights, so that they do not consider Rutland. Regarding the issue of language, however, our them to be a restriction on the remortgaging or indeed local newspaper has come into its own, airing the grievances the sale of properties. I ask the Minister to look very and concerns of local residents but also allowing the carefully at that issue. landowner the right of reply, so that he can explain his position. I am sure that my hon. Friend has raised the As I say, I make no apologies for briefly highlighting issue in his area on behalf of his constituents, as he the situation in Anglesey, where there is the ancient title represents them; I continue to do the same for my of the Lord Trefoss, which originates from the Bishop constituents in Erewash. of Bangor’s diocese. The title is today held by Stephen Paul Hayes, who I understand purchased it, perfectly Albert Owen: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. legitimately, at an auction in the early 1990s. I now Indeed, I am in a similar position, but it should have understand that the title, including the manorial rights been the duty of the Land Registry to provide clear and of hunting, fishing and mineral rights, is up for sale on a concise notices in the first instance. It is an unintended website for $45,000. I have also been made aware that a consequence of previous Acts that this method of informing document exists from the district valuer, dating back to people has come into being, and in the future I want to 1950, showing that in 1940 the Bishop of Bangor gave see a clearer way by which manorial rights can either be the then title to University College of North Wales, now extinguished or at least explained to individuals. We are Bangor university, and that the claims of interest in the singing from the same hymn sheet in that regard. manor are limited to commons and waste lands within the provision of the law, including the Property Act I do not expect the Minister to give full answers today 1922. I am not a property lawyer, but I make the point to the questions that I put to him directly, but we have clearly that it should be possible for individuals to find already exchanged letters and he has very courteously out the exact titles, and that information should be given me a lot of the details about this situation. I have included in their deeds. Surely the role of the Land also raised this matter with the Leader of the House. Registry should be to assist individual freeholders and The purpose of this debate is to ask the Minister to not to put out a generic letter that causes so much consider the points that I have raised, and will continue concern. In layperson’s terms, any such letter should to raise, on behalf of constituents in 4,000 premises in have explained the reasons for what the Land Registry my constituency and, as I have said, many other people is doing, as well as the manorial rights and titles. throughout Wales and England. I will now move on. I realise that we will now finish at As I have already indicated, the Land Registration about 4.45 pm, so I will try to be brief for the rest of my Acts of Parliament, including the Land Registration remarks, so that the Minister can give a full reply to the Act 2002, are supposed to provide transparency and debate. I want to look at the role of the local authority clarity on these ancient and in many cases outdated in Anglesey, because it too has been issued with some of manorial rights. Instead they have caused people confusion, these notices as its land falls within the manorial rights. anxiety and distress. That burden could be lifted en bloc The first point in the notice that was being distributed if there were the political will to do so. Also, as I have by the Land Registry was that the manorial rights being said, the local authority can help. claimed by Lord Trefoss are actually contained within In future, I want the owners of properties to be the local authority itself. As Members will know, over comfortable that when they do searches on their properties, the years a lot of responsibilities have been passed from these types of rights are identified, and I do not want landowners to local authorities, as County Council anybody to be penalised for having a right added to Acts in the 1800s and various other measures have their property deeds. That is because for ordinary people meant that authorities have taken over services. Today, a home is probably the biggest purchase that they will highways, street lighting and all those main services are make in their entire life, and they want security for provided by the local authority. The local authority themselves and their family. I feel for them in that 333WH Manorial Rights (England and 15 JANUARY 2014 Manorial Rights (England and 334WH Wales) Wales) [Albert Owen] man and he will understand the genuine concerns raised today about my constituency and on behalf of the regard. I am sure that the Minister will understand the people of Wales and England who want to look forward fears and concerns about manorial rights that I have with comfort, having bought their properties and done highlighted. He will also understand that those fears the right thing, encouraged by this Government and have been heightened at a time when we are talking others before them, rather than find themselves with an about shale gas exploration in this country. Many people additional burden regarding rights on their properties. I link the two things. hope that we can all work together to alleviate those As I have said, I raised the issue of manorial rights concerns and anxieties and have property laws fit for with the Leader of the House on 5 December. I welcomed the 21st century. his saying quite clearly that there is no link between the 4.33 pm notice of manorial rights and shale gas or oil. He added that The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon): I welcome you to the Chair, “The Petroleum Act 1988 vests all rights to the nation’s petroleum resources in the Crown.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2013; Mr Rosindell. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Vol. 571, c. 1100.] Môn (Albert Owen) on securing this important debate. However, there needs to be further clarification of this He raises concerns about manorial rights and the issue by the Minister, because many people are uncertain implications for affected property owners of recent changes what minerals can be extracted if a mineral right is part to the law. of manorial rights. I am sure that the Minister will The Land Registry is a non-ministerial Department mention that. on behalf of which I am responding today. I undertake to write to the hon. Gentleman on any points that I am Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): My hon. Friend will be not able to cover. Perhaps some points are not directly aware of the considerable concern of many constituents relevant—for example, chancel repair liabilities, which throughout the country about chancel repair liability. are important and worrying—but I may be able to get a He will also know that the General Synod of the better reply in writing on that to the hon. Member for Church of England recommended phasing that out in Llanelli (Nia Griffith), and to the hon. Gentleman on 1982, a call that was repeated by the Law Commission his point about local authorities. in 1985. Would he suggest that, as the October 2013 Manorial rights are certain rights over land that were deadline has passed, the Government should at least set specifically preserved when most remnants of the manorial up a parliamentary committee of inquiry to try to sort system were abolished in 1926. These rights may take out all these issues? several forms, but include sporting rights and rights to timber, mines and minerals. Until recently, those rights Albert Owen: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who bound the owners and buyers of land, whether they has been campaigning on behalf of her constituents on knew about them or not. However, since 13 October this matter as well. I am sure that the Minister heard 2013, the rights will have bound buyers of registered what she said. That is one way forward that the Government land only if those rights are noted on the register before could take, working with the Church Commissioners. the purchase is registered. Perhaps there will also be an opportunity for a question One of the aims of the Land Registration Act 2002, to the Church Commissioners in the House. which I understand passed through this House without In relation to the Council of Mortgage Lenders, I a Division, was to bring more information on to the should like the Minister to reassure people in my area register of title, so that it formed a more complete and others that the current status of manorial rights is record of legal ownership. Manorial rights are a good not regarded as a blight that warrants restriction on example of a hidden burden that the policy was designed lending in future. Does he agree to senior officers of the to expose. The 2002 Act gave the owners of these rights Land Registry meeting myself and other concerned 10 years to bring them on to the register to ensure their Members of Parliament to discuss the issues and how continued existence. Naturally, the approach of the they can best be handled and improvements made? 10-year deadline brought forward a number of registrations Serious errors in my area, with people receiving not just and, unsurprisingly, issues around these manorial rights one notice but two, have heightened the anxiety and have arisen as the owners of the rights have had to distress. consider what to do, and some property owners have Will the Minister consider seriously whether local been reminded—or perhaps have learned for the first authorities could make a collective response to the time—that someone is claiming that their property is Land Registry on behalf of residents? I know the law is subject to these rights. complex, but in the 21st century we should be looking In some cases, landowners have always known that to give greater benefits, to simplify the process, to their properties are subject to these rights, either because rebalance property rights away from the unique protection the rights are referred to in the old title deeds or because of ancient rights that are often absurd, and to protect they were discovered by their conveyancer when they today’s property owners for the future. I make that bought. However, in other cases, these rights were not statement today—other hon. Members have spoken in apparent at the time of purchase, and owners are finding the same vein—to get a positive outcome, not to just out about them for the first time when they are contacted raise the issue and let it be. by the Land Registry. The Land Registry has received Many people who have contacted me are receiving more than 73,000 applications to enter a notice claiming notices saying that owners of titles are contesting this manorial rights on properties across England and Wales. matter. It will go on and cause greater anxiety unless the Although I appreciate that letters from the Land Minister responds in a more positive way and considers Registry have arrived without warning, there is little changing the laws. The Minister is a reasonable, progressive that it could do about this. It can only notify property 335WH Manorial Rights (England and 15 JANUARY 2014 Manorial Rights (England and 336WH Wales) Wales) owners that an application has been received, resulting That is routinely sent to the parties to disputes who are in a notice of a claimed right being entered on to the not legally represented. It is also available on the website register in respect of their land. The statute requires the and from Land Registry offices. notice to be entered. The Land Registry appreciates On the Welsh language, Land Registry policy is to that it can cause concern and upset when people receive send communications in the recipient’s language of a letter from it saying that a third party has protected a preference, if that is clear from the register. If the claimed interest. However, that letter gives the property language preference appears to be English because there owner an opportunity to consider the issue. The letters is no contrary indication on the register, communications give full details of the third party making the application, will be sent in English. If it is apparent from the register as well as Land Registry details, so residents can ask for or from any subsequent contact that the recipient prefers further information if they require it. The Land Registry Welsh, however, the Land Registry will communicate in has worked with applicants to try to ensure that those Welsh. The Land Registry’s website has extensive affected by notices are able to access more information information in Welsh. It would prefer to continue to try via the applicant. to meet the personal preferences of recipients, rather The letter deals with the main questions that recipients than send large amounts of material that might not have tended to ask. Recently, it has been updated to assist its customers. take account of feedback from recipients, including The hon. Gentleman mentioned that there has been those from the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, to try quite a lot of publicity suggesting that the existence of and simplify the information as much as possible without manorial rights has caused difficulty in getting property making it misleading. loans. The Land Registry has been monitoring the The Land Registry has also produced a guide for situation and, where it has been able to contact individuals property owners that sets out in simple terms what these who may have been affected, those individuals usually, rights may consist of, and what steps an owner can take but not always, turn out not to have been affected. We if they dispute that the claimed rights affect their land. know that in some cases there has been a short delay in That guide is available in English and Welsh, both on granting a loan because of an earlier application by the the Land Registry’s website and from any Land Registry property owner to remove the notice. The lender would office. However, following discussions with the Land have wished to ensure that any dispute had been resolved Registry, I confirm that it will now send this guidance before proceeding. In one case, the property owner out with its initial letter, as a matter of course. changed lawyers because of concerns about the advice Where an owner disputes that their property is subject given, and the change in lawyers enabled the loan to be to the rights claimed, the Land Registry does what it granted. The Land Registry stands ready to assist anyone can to help the parties in the dispute. For example, else facing similar problems. it encourages the party claiming the rights to produce The fact that a notice has been entered in the register its evidence at the earliest possible stage, and in many does not necessarily mean that the right claimed actually cases that brings the matter to a conclusion. The Land exists. Whether the right exists will depend on the facts Registry always gives the parties the opportunity to try of the case. Home owners and other landowners remain to resolve their dispute, and the time to do so. In as free as they were before the legislation to contest a addition, where it can, the Land Registry will try to claim. The requirement to enter a notice to protect assist, if asked, by expressing its view, based on the manorial rights removes uncertainty and unpredictability available evidence. However, hon. Members will understand by making it apparent that such rights are claimed. It is that the registry must, throughout this process, remain a positive development for property owners in general strictly impartial. that such rights have to be recorded on the register and Where, after negotiation, the notice holder decides may be lost if they are not recorded. Registration of to withdraw their notice, the Land Registry arranges manorial rights is, of course, distinct from exercising for them to lodge a withdrawal. So far, approximately those rights. In the case of mineral rights, to which the 6,000 properties have been voluntarily released from hon. Gentleman referred at the end of his remarks, notices. If it is clear that the parties cannot settle their planning consent is required in the normal way. dispute, the Land Registry is required to send the case I am happy to write to hon. Members who have to the land registration division of the property chamber spoken and interjected on the points raised. The registration first-tier tribunal for a judicial decision. In such cases, requirement will ultimately achieve a better balance the registry has to await, and then act on, the tribunal’s between the interests of the owners of manorial rights, decision. the interests of those who are subject to the rights, and The registry appreciates that a property dispute can the interests of those who may at some time in the be difficult for both property owners and those claiming future purchase a property affected by such rights. I am legal rights over properties. It has therefore produced a grateful to the hon. Gentleman and others who have guide about the dispute process and the various stages. helped to bring the matter before the House today. 337WH 15 JANUARY 2014 Police and Crime Commissioners and 338WH ACPO Police and Crime Commissioners and “it would be wrong to assume that there is a clear dividing line ACPO between policy and practice”. That is why it is necessary for PCCs to have oversight. The business areas should not just be pushed off on to a 4.43 pm professional committee within the College of Policing; Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): It is a the PCCs should be central either in directly managing pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. the business areas or delegating them to ensure appropriate I am grateful to have secured this debate, which is supervision. That is essential, as General Parker emphasises timely, as the police and crime commissioners’ decision in his report. on the funding of the Association of Chief Police The second recommendation is on national units, of Officers is pending. which there is a great range. Some are small in what ACPO still receives £4 million of public funding. they do, although they are often important, and some Some £1.2 million of that is provided directly by PCCs are smaller or larger in terms of funding. The general to ACPO centrally, with the remainder almost all going says that we need to national policing units still overseen by ACPO— “alternative models to governance, funding and support currently something that I and other members of the Select provided by ACPO, such as the lead force…to streamline governance Committee on Home Affairs have repeatedly said is and financial accountability by reinvigorating the bilateral contact wrong. The Home Office has already ended funding between forces and each national unit. This will ensure that to ACPO, so I hope the Minister will find General individual force requirements are met in the most cost effective Sir Nick Parker’s independent review of ACPO helpful. manner.” The report continues: The PCCs to whom I have spoken do not in any way interpret recommendation 4, on having a change “ACPO does provide important administrative services, particularly in support of national units. It governs some commercial interests management programme, as a criticism of the Home and acts as the home for CPOSA. There are alternative solutions, Office; rather, they see it as an offer to work with the including more widespread use of the lead force model in the case Home Office to ensure that the transition from ACPO of national units.” happens, and to provide a final year of funding to do so. There is a clear model for the direction that that should The Parker report’s other three recommendations also go in, so the question is how we arrange the transfer strongly support the changes to the policing landscape over the next year, if the PCCs are kind enough to driven by the Home Office, and they will be welcomed provide funding and support for the Home Office by members of the Select Committee, and by many to oversee it. chief constables who are perhaps not part of the ACPO in-group, if I may describe it in that way. Finally—this is key—nobody has any objection to chief constables getting together to discuss matters of The Parker report’s first three recommendations are mutual interest. That is something that they have done, central to today’s debate, and I will address them in as the so-called chief constables’ council, within ACPO, reverse order. Recommendation 3 states: using ACPO as the agency to the extent that that was “PCCs should seek greater visibility of National Business Area required, but the consensus, certainly in the report, is governance and output. Even though the overall responsibility that the status quo is no longer feasible. General Parker for management is transferring from ACPO to the College of Policing the level of resources that Business Areas consume at says that we need change that local level mean that PCCs remain a major stakeholder.” “shifts responsibilities…to the College of Policing and other appropriate bodies, one of which must represent senior…operational The Select Committee would probably also add that leadership at the national level”. Alex Marshall and the College of Policing are in charge. The College of Policing is a new body that will take time ACPO will therefore have no further role in that. I to get into its stride, which I believe it is now doing. It is emphasise that responsibility is shifting to other appropriate important that chief constables look to Alex Marshall, bodies, one of which will provide a central focus at the who is operationally in charge of the college, to provide national level and can act as a forum for the senior that leadership, because it now happens through the leadership of the police service. College of Policing, rather than through ACPO. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I am Recommendation 3 runs counter to the rearguard grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He action being fought by a number of chief constables; rightly quotes at length the Parker review, which praises that point is addressed on page 10 of the report, where the historic work of ACPO, recommends a collective General Parker refers to the “concerns” from some that national policing function to conduct operational and “the wide representation of stakeholders within the College, and managerial co-ordination, and argues for reform. It has the processes necessary to ensure appropriate consideration, may been embraced by ACPO and supported by the Association delay the implementation of tactical procedures. Chief Constables should retain an important stake in the speed of decision-making of Police and Crime Commissioners, which are now and the priorities set to address issues. This will allow Business collaborating in a transitional board. Does he accept Area Heads to ensure timely, credible implementation and, if the the importance of a focus akin to that which ACPO has situation demands it, provide an effective counter to obfuscation provided historically? Whatever the future reforms, there by other stakeholders within the College who may not have should be that focus on the effective co-ordination of responsibility for operational effect.” operational and managerial delivery. Is that not key That betrays some chief constables’ lack of understanding to the safety and security of the communities that we of how the new policing landscape should operate, and represent? particularly of the role of the College of Policing in running those business areas, and the key role of the Mark Reckless: What is key for our communities is police and crime commissioners on the college’s board. democratic oversight. As I said in my maiden speech, if As the general says, Labour is now not the party of democratic oversight, 339WH Police and Crime Commissioners and 15 JANUARY 2014 Police and Crime Commissioners and 340WH ACPO ACPO which the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) developed under ACPO. It should be a new role. I am has an honourable record in pushing, but of ACPO, sure that the Select Committee will consider those points then it can stand on that basis, but that is a sad change. I when we come to make recommendations. am not sure whether, in the shadow Minister’s remarks, there was a degree of confusion between ACPO and the 4.55 pm National Police Coordination Centre, in terms of that national co-ordinating role during times of crisis—the Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure most obvious recent example is the riots. Everyone to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, and to agrees that that role is required, but we need appropriate follow the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith oversight of that, and there is appropriate oversight in Vaz), who is the Chair of the Select Committee on that centre. The president of ACPO does not have Home Affairs, and my hon. Friend the Member for direction and control; he is one of a number of people Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), who gave an serving on the new body, which includes representation excellent summary. He and I have often taken up this from the Cabinet Office and the Home Office. That is issue on the Select Committee, because it does matter. the right model. When I talk to experts in policing structures from It is perfectly fine to discuss and develop the idea of around the world and they look at how ACPO works, whether chief constables need a collective view, and they are often shocked at the amount of power that has whether or not the body should be called the chief accumulated without oversight and without deliberate constables’ council. The traditional tripartite model intention. Nobody would deny that there is a role for involves the chief constable and the police authority operational discussion between chief constables, but far locally, and the Home Office setting the national framework. more than that has been accumulated and gone into the Unfortunately, over several decades, ACPO began new structure, as I have seen in many cases. Several undemocratically to set that national framework centrally, years ago, the Cambridgeshire police authority was told when it is much more appropriate for such things to be that it had to agree a particular policy on Tasers, delivered locally and with democratic oversight. If there because it had been mandated by ACPO. The police is to be a chief constables’ council, which is perfectly authority should have known better than to accept the sensible, it should be run by a part-time chair elected by policy, but that is what it was told, in writing, from the the members—even ACPO was run in that way before chief constable at the time. That is simply inappropriate. 2003. There is no need for some great legal entity and It is not up to ACPO to set that sort of policy. superstructure that has human resources, finance and The Parker review is deeply critical on several points, legal functions; it can operate like the other business as was summarised by my hon. Friend. Some things areas. The elected chair could use his staff officer and a have been annoying many of us for a long time, such as number of officers within the local force as appropriate, the fact that it is a private limited company and exempt with the costs falling as they lie with the business area. from freedom of information requests. In fairness, the That is the appropriate model, which would allow chief president, who is on the parliamentary estate today, has constables to work together, with the chair speaking on highlighted those as things that he would like to change, their behalf when appropriate. That is all that is required, but I have not seen them change yet. We have the and we must be sure that the transition does not allow a opportunity to change things now as a result of the revamped ACPO to return from the dead. Parker review, the new College of Policing, the bringing of a good evidence-based environment to policing, and 4.53 pm the changes around police and crime commissioners. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I will be brief, as the PCCs now have the right to choose what model they Minister has to speak, and I know that other colleagues would like. It is obviously their choice to make, but I also want to contribute. It is a pleasure to serve under hope that they consider the sort of model outlined by your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, and to congratulate my hon. Friend. I say yes to a chief constables’ council, the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark yes to a place for chief constables to talk, engage and Reckless) on initiating the debate. He is a true original interact, and yes to it having a part-time chair, who thinker on the Select Committee on Home Affairs as far should have support and be able to be involved with as policing is concerned. Throughout the incredible operational policing. ACPO should be trimmed down, change that has been organised by the Government and with far more responsibilities lying with accountable the new landscape of policing, he has pushed the Select bodies, and far less of the power that it has accumulated. Committee in the right direction when we have probed Many people at ACPO have worked hard and with the the changes. I am happy to remind the House that the best of intentions, but it has not been accountable, and Select Committee is investigating how police and crime it has led to a few people collecting a huge amount of commissioners and chief constables work together. As power. part of that, we will have our say on what is left of ACPO in the new landscape. 4.57 pm I agree with the hon. Gentleman that chief constables have a different role from the one that has developed Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I rise to over the past few years. They are not supposed to be support my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and involved in making policy, although the Home Affairs Strood (Mark Reckless). ACPO was let off lightly in Committee has on many occasions called on ACPO to General Parker’s review. It is a failed institution that is give us views on policy.That changes in this new landscape, bordering on corrupt. It has myriad conflicts of interest which I am on the record as saying I am excited about, and lacks transparency.General Parker’s review is excellent, but it has not yet settled. The hon. Gentleman is saying but it failed to identify and to nail the heart of the that when it has settled, chief constables will have a role problems at ACPO, which come from a group of men, to play, but it will not be the traditional role that largely, protecting their jobs over decades. 341WH Police and Crime Commissioners and 15 JANUARY 2014 Police and Crime Commissioners and 342WH ACPO ACPO Jack Dromey: A very serious allegation has just been In the short time—a little more than a year—that made about the most senior police officers in our country. PCCs have been in office, they have innovated by developing It has been alleged that they are corrupt. Will the hon. strategies to tackle drug and alcohol misuse and the Gentleman either justify that statement or withdraw it? problem of people with mental health problems being held in custody cells; they have worked with young Julian Smith: I will not withdraw it. An organisation people to improve engagement; and they have driven that offers jobs to ex-officers without following the innovation in technology to improve policing. They procurement processes that it created displays a form of have done all that while holding their forces to account corruption. It is a club working in its own interests. The and scrutinising police performance. Many PCCs have report does not identify that, just as it does not identify wasted no time in introducing new processes to hold the organisation’s moral vacuum. There have been many chief constables to account for the delivery of the challenges to our police service, but has this organisation PCC-prepared police and crime plans and in driving reviewed the issue of better leadership, or what should value for money. All that has fundamentally changed be done? Has it looked at how many women are in the the accountability process in and governance of policing senior leadership of our police forces? Has it looked at for the better. I am grateful for the endorsement of that ethnic minorities? Has it challenged itself? Has it looked change in the tone of the debate so far. at new entrants into the forces? Has it looked at why white males largely dominate the senior positions within PCCs have reviewed the role and remit of ACPO our police? It has not. For those reasons, we should within that new context—this is essential, and I very draw a line under ACPO. The PCCs should not give this much welcome it. Various hon. Members have talked organisation a penny piece beyond some transitional about the Parker review, which demonstrates that PCCs funding. The Home Office should be much more focused are providing an impetus to reform at the national as on ensuring that any money that it pays for ongoing well as the local level. They are of course innovating projects does not seep over into the overall running of and delivering policing more efficiently in each of their this organisation. ACPO is finished and should be individual areas, and not only have they brought real wound up; the sort of organisation outlined by my hon. local accountability to how chief constables and their Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood sounds forces perform, but they are working hard to ensure like just the ticket for a new, more transparent period of that their local communities have a stronger voice in policing. policing. Everything is happening against the economic and 5pm fiscal background with which we are familiar. In the The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims current climate, it is essential to drive innovation and (Damian Green): It is always a pleasure to serve under transformation that deliver value for money, so that your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. It was also a particular savings can be made and priority given to front-line pleasure to hear some thoughtful and trenchant views policing. PCCs are doing this at the same time as they in the course of this short debate. Those who spoke, are delivering against their national responsibilities, most of whom are members of the Home Affairs which I hope is putting an end to the view of some Committee, have thought about the subject deeply and people that that is a weakness of PCCs. I think that it is long. Furthermore, the right hon. Member for Leicester a strength. East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select Committee, I now turn in some detail to the Parker review. As said that a report is gestating; as ever, we look forward Sir Nick Parker said in a review undertaken on behalf to its birth. I was especially grateful to the right hon. of PCCs, not of the Home Office, there are frustrations Gentleman for saying that he was “excited” about the with the lack of transparency in ACPO funding and new policing landscape. There were many reasons why with the inadequacy of audit and performance monitoring. we conducted such a widespread and radical reform of Sir Nick said that the police. It was extremely necessary to improve policing “these arise out of ACPO’s undoubtedly complex and unorthodox in this country. It is an uncovenanted and added bonus structure.” that it excites the Chair of the Select Committee. There is a variety of governance mechanisms across the The time is right, amid all this change, to look again full range of ACPO’s functions, and its status is unusual, at the role of ACPO to ensure that it has adapted to the in that it is a company limited by guarantee rather than massive change and reform programme introduced by a public body. We have heard some of those frustrations the Government, because the whole of the policing aired in the Chamber today. landscape has been reformed. As was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Keith Vaz: To be fair to the president of ACPO, Sir Reckless), who introduced the debate so thoughtfully, Hugh Orde—I am a great fan of his and the way in police and crime commissioners have given communities which he conducts his policing—he said that he was a greater say in policing and introduced new lines of very uncomfortable with being in a company limited by accountability for chief constables. Also, the Independent guarantee. He had torn what little hair he had left off Police Complaints Commission has been strengthened his head in order to find alternatives. to ensure the highest standards of police integrity, which is clearly an ever more important reform; the Damian Green: Absolutely. The right hon. Gentleman National Crime Agency has been created to lead the is entirely right to make that point. I am conscious that fight against serious and organised crime; the inspectorate Sir Hugh Orde has thought as much about these matters of constabulary has been made more independent; and as anyone else and has, as one would expect, come to the College of Policing has been established to provide thoughtful conclusions. professional standards for policing. It is therefore essential I support the broad direction of travel of the Parker that ACPO’s functions are now delivered within the review, and I was pleased that PCCs had taken collective ethos of the new policing landscape. action to review the role and functions of ACPO. I was 343WH Police and Crime Commissioners and 15 JANUARY 2014 Police and Crime Commissioners and 344WH ACPO ACPO also pleased the review recognised the need for efficiencies In future, we will be looking to the college as the and for deriving maximum value for money from services body responsible for developing a better police force, that are currently provided under ACPO. for identifying the challenges that policing faces and for The PCCs have a vital role in ensuring that there is a setting out how those challenges should be met. In future national forum in which chief constables may come the college will come up with the big ideas for reforms together to co-ordinate what they see as their needs at to improve the way policing is delivered. I expect to see the national level. We all agree that that is an essential the college providing dynamic leadership in the face of function. As the review recognises, crucially, the majority a wide range of challenges, including reducing bureaucracy, of ACPO functions have now transferred to the College increasing officer discretion and driving the modernisation of Policing. We are using the Anti-social Behaviour, of the police. Crime and Policing Bill to give the college the power to To achieve all that, the college will need to be visible set standards. It will be for the college to provide not just to the few at the top of the police or to the leadership for the whole of policing in future. many thousands working in policing but—perhaps most important of all—to the general public, without whom the police could not be effective. We have always had a Dr Huppert: The Minister is absolutely right to highlight model of policing by consent. The famous dictum of the role of the College of Policing in providing standards Robert Peel, that the and leadership. It is also important to evidence-informed policing and to developing new approaches that were “police are the public and the public are the police” not seen in the previous policing landscape. Will he talk needs constant reinvention in every age. It will be to the about that role as well? college that Governments, the police and the public will look to interpret how we achieve that hugely desirable end, which has always been at the heart of British Damian Green: Indeed. My hon. Friend makes a policing, in the 21st century. good point. I am about to come on to the college and its vital, central role in future, but first I will point out the We have talked about accountability today, and I one part of the Parker review with which I disagree: the agree that it is important. The college is accountable need for a centralised change management programme through its board, with a far greater range of people for police reform, potentially run from the Home Office. from right across policing responsible for taking decisions That is exactly what we do not need and is very much about the way the college works. It will also be accountable against the ethos of the more accountable, locally driven to Parliament for the standards it sets. and bottom-up police service that we are introducing. That is one of the reasons why I am so glad that the Mark Reckless: The key is that the range of people PCCs have grasped the nettle of reform themselves, on that board include a serious number of PCCs, who because it shows that we do not need a small group in are elected. That is the difference, surely. the Home Office driving all change. Damian Green: It is one difference, but the most important difference, and the next thing I was going to Mark Reckless: The PCCs I have spoken to do not say, is how inclusive the college is. It is for the whole of interpret the report in that way. I can see how the policing: officers, staff, special constables and volunteers. Minister might, reading it broadly, but that has not There is a wide range of people on the college board as been their interpretation, to the extent that change well as on its professional committee. As my hon. management is needed and the Home Office’s co-operation Friend says, that rightly includes PCCs, who are themselves with that is desired. I believe that is an issue for the directly elected. transitional final year funding that PCCs are prepared to offer to help the Home Office to ensure that ACPO’s The college is new and new organisations need time functions are wound down and that the appropriate to get their strategy and structures in place, and to make transition is made. sure that they have the right people in post to deliver their aims, but there has already been huge progress. In September, the college published its strategic intent, Damian Green: Absolutely. I thought that that was inviting views on its strategy, including on whether what I had said. I am conscious that PCCs want to do police officers and staff should pay a fee to join. In that. I am not saying that there is no role for the Home October, it consulted on the code of ethics for police Office—there is of course a role for it, and we have a officers and members of police staff. While we are very senior official sitting on the transition committee debating the changes to ACPO here today, the college is precisely so that the legitimate interest that the Home working through its longer term structures and developing Office has in the process can be represented at this vital its commercial strategy. All that is being progressed time of change. alongside the work the college is doing on direct entry, I have been invited to talk about the College of on the threshold tests linking pay to skills, on police Policing, however, so I will. We saw before Christmas digitisation and on freeing up police time. It is essential with the code of ethics that the media and the public are that everyone not only gives the college time to develop increasingly—and rightly—looking to the college to but supports it in that development. It will be a vital speak boldly on how it believes the police should response institution for the future success of policing in this to press and public concerns, in the way that, in the country. past, they would have looked to ACPO. The college has We should all recognise that it will not be some diktat taken on much that we used to look to ACPO to from the Home Office or lever pulled by the Policing provide—setting out the case for change, providing Minister that will bring about reform. We need to work leadership and enabling police forces to provide a more in partnership with police and crime commissioners effective service to their communities. and chief constables to ensure that the model for the 345WH Police and Crime Commissioners and 15 JANUARY 2014 Police and Crime Commissioners and 346WH ACPO ACPO [Damian Green] unfold. Once those changes take place, it will be essential that they work. We have already seen the changes the future is the right one. We continue to take a strong Government have made to this part of the policing interest and financially to support those critical national landscape through the creation of the college. Those functions that chief constables undertake and must changes have worked because they have been supported continue to deliver, namely those where operational by all parts of policing—by chief constables, PCCs, the co-ordination is needed on national issues. Critical national Police Superintendents Association, the Police Federation functions including the national police co-ordination and those trade unions that have members who are centre and the ACPO criminal records office must police staff. The changes to ACPO need to be worked continue so that we safeguard work on, for example, the through in exactly the same way. sharing of international criminal information across I am grateful to ACPO and its members. Chief constables the EU and the rest of the world—clearly an area of have shown the ability to adapt and evolve to meet new increasing importance to the police. challenges. That pragmatic, reforming approach will Sir Nick Parker’s review was comprehensive and looked need to continue as police reform and, in particular, a at the future of ACPO in the round. It concluded that sharper focus on public accountability and transparency reform was needed to ensure that chief constables have continue to drive change across the policing landscape. a forum with functions and structures that fit the new Question put and agreed to. police reform landscape. I support that objective. The changes to the policing landscape that followed the 5.15 pm publication of the review of ACPO will take time to Sitting adjourned. 27WS Written Statements15 JANUARY 2014 Written Statements 28WS

regional co-operation, which was strongly supported by Written Statement most member states. The majority of member states, including the UK, indicated their opposition to capping Wednesday 15 January 2014 the total number of IAS on the proposed list of Union concern. There was a large group of member states, including the UK, also in favour of extending measures to IAS native to the EU. The Commission recognised ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS that a cap is problematic. It also noted the support for including non-EU IAS and agreed to consider if and Environment Council how this could be achieved through existing provisions. In other business, the presidency provided an update on the failure to reach agreement in the Energy Council The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and of 12 December on the proposed directive to address Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I represented the the indirect land use change impacts of biofuels. The UK at the European Environment Council meeting in presidency then introduced the outcome of the 19th session Brussels on 13 December. Paul Wheelhouse, Minister of the conference of the parties to the UN framework for Environment and Climate Change in the Scottish convention on climate change (C0P19). Looking ahead Government, and Alun Davies, Minister for Natural at the timeline for developing the EU’s contribution, Resources and Food in the Welsh Government, also Germany, France, Denmark, Belgium, Sweden and the attended. UK all emphasised the importance of the March Council After adopting the list of legislative and non-legislative and of the June ministerial meeting. “A” items, Environment Ministers held an exchange of The presidency gave an update on the state of play views on a proposal for a regulation on monitoring, and way forward on EU ETS/aviation. France, Germany, reporting and verification of C02 emissions from ships. Finland and the UK all argued that the Commission’s I set out the UK’s objective of securing a global agreement proposal does not reflect the political nature of the under the International Maritime Organisation but issue and underlined the importance of making progress confirmed the UK’s view that the scope of the Commission’s in the International Civil Aviation Organisation on a proposal is broadly appropriate. The majority of other global solution. Also under other business, the Commission member states who spoke agreed with the UK that a introduced its new proposal on plastic bags, which has global measure is the main objective and that the scope been adopted in response to calls from the Council and of covering ships over 5,000 gross tonnage, but not the huge reaction to the Commission’s public consultation. gases other than C02, is appropriate. Views diverged I welcomed the flexibility included in the Commission’s with regard to transparency of information. Denmark proposal and highlighted the progress made nationally emphasised the importance of exposing data to public in reducing carrier bag usage. I also stressed the UK’s scrutiny, while Cyprus and Malta highlighted the willingness to work together with other member states commercial risk of disclosing data for individual vessels. and the Commission to develop a truly biodegradable The Commission introduced its proposal on tackling plastic bag. invasive alien species (IAS), underlining its intention to Greece presented the work programme for its presidency. focus only on species non-native to the EU. During the They hope to seek agreement on EU ETS/aviation, the orientation debate, there was universal support for an shipment of waste, the protection of species of wild fauna EU system to tackle IAS. It became apparent, however, and flora by regulating trade and fluorinated gases. that there is a need to revise the principles used to devise Ministers then broke for a working lunch, during which the list of species and acknowledge the importance of we discussed the post-2015 development framework.

553W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 554W

Mr Goodwill: We will continue to keep all assumptions Written Answers to made in the economic case for HS2 under review to ensure decisions are based on the best available evidence. Questions The latest economic case published in October 2013 assumes that when HS2 opens fast intercity services to Birmingham and points north will be migrated to the Wednesday 15 January 2014 new high speed network, with offsetting reductions in intercity services on the classic rail network. Descriptions of the assumed service offerings were set out in ‘PfM v4.3: Assumptions report’, published in TRANSPORT October 2013 alongside the Economic Case. A copy has been placed in the House Library. Dual Carriageways These assumptions have been created for modelling Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for and appraisal purposes only and do not represent a Transport for what reasons fencing which obscures commitment to any specific service pattern. The drivers’ vision is being erected near traffic islands on Department will continue to develop its understanding the central reservation of dual carriagways. [182062] of the best use of the rail network with HS2 and the implications of different options for the costs of operating Mr Goodwill: Without more site specific detail we are the rail network. unable to provide more information on the reasons The estimated annual saving assumed in the economic fencing which obscures drivers’ vision is being erected case for HS2 is £447 million in 2033-34 (in real 2011 near traffic islands on the central reservation of dual prices, undiscounted). carriageways. Fencing may be erected on the Strategic Road Network Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for different reasons depending upon the needs of the for Transport if he will publish an updated version of location in question. The Highways Agency produce, the KPMG report on High Speed Rail 2 Regional maintain and apply standards and guidance for the Economic Impacts to include the disbenefits identified different types of fencing used on the Strategic Road by KPMG for those regions not served by HS2; and if Network. These standards and site specific evaluations he will make a statement. [182265] consider the risks and benefits before works commence. Local Highway Authorities may choose to adopt Mr Goodwill: The analysis presented in the September these standards for use on the local road network. 2013 report “Regional Economic Impacts of HS2” undertaken by KPMG on behalf of HS2 Ltd identified High Speed 2 Railway Line the impact on productivity for all areas across Great Britain, including those not served by HS2. The findings Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State presented in the September 2013 report show the net for Transport if he will publish an updated version of impact on productivity—that is the sum of total gains the KPMG report on HS2 regional economic impacts, in productivity minus any losses. addressing the question of whether there will be slower Of course HS2 doesn’t serve all areas and the KPMG journey times and less frequent services between those figures reflect that. The benefits are naturally greater in towns and cities which will be reliant on the classic rail the places the line serves directly. This analysis does not network following the completion of HS2; and if he include the benefits of other investments to boost the will make a statement. [182263] transport system. This Government will invest £73 billion in the next parliament, of which £17 billion will be Mr Goodwill: The analysis presented in the September spent on HS2, and this will help places not being served 2013 report “Regional Economic Impacts of HS2” by HS2. undertaken by KPMG on behalf of HS2 Ltd is based on the train service specifications for both HS2 and the Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State classic rail network used to inform the August 2012 for Transport whether stopping services on the West Economic Case for HS2, which was the most up to date Coast Main Line will be reduced following the information at the time the analysis was undertaken. completion of the HS2 route; and if he will make a These train service specifications have been created statement. [182266] for modelling and appraisal purposes only and do not represent a commitment to any specific service pattern. Mr Goodwill: The introduction of HS2 services will The Department will continue to develop its understanding deliver a huge improvement to passengers who currently of the best use of the rail network with HS2 and the use the West Coast Main Line when the Phase 1 route implications of different options for the costs of operating opens in 2026. In addition HS2 introduction will enable the rail network. existing train service to be reconfigured to provide improvements to many inter-regional and commuter Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State services. The Department shortly intends to launch an for Transport whether the cost-benefit calculations for open and consultative process to help develop and High Speed 2 will continue to assume a reduction in the refine the work to plan GB rail services as a whole cost of operating the classic rail network after the HS2 following the opening of HS2. Any changes to service route is completed; what total annual saving is assumed; patterns on existing lines will be subject to consultation what specific reductions in services and frequencies are during the development of future franchise propositions. proposed; and if he will make a statement. [182264] The Department, in its role as Franchising Authority, 555W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 556W will be clearly focused on ensuring that rail services support for facilitating a meeting between HS2 Ltd and work as a whole, at network level to offer best value for CSR Corporation Limited, a Chinese rolling stock passengers and taxpayers. company. Sir Albert’s letter refers directly to the possibility of Chinese investment in HS2, though not to any specific Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State project or link to HS2. for Transport what assessment he has made of the There have so far been no direct approaches from effect of line closures on the classic rail network as a either Birmingham City airport or China Railway Group result of the construction of HS2; and if he will make a relating to investment in links to HS2 infrastructure. statement. [182267] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr Goodwill: HS2 Ltd have estimated that around (1) whether passport control services will operate in 386 weekend closures of parts of the existing rail network Manchester and Leeds under current plans for High will be necessary as a result of the construction works Speed 2; [182734] for the full HS2 Y network (Phase 1 and Phase 2). (2) whether passengers from Birmingham will (a) HS2 Ltd have advised that the closures will be a mix have the facility to clear customs at Curzon Street or of partial and full closures, although in most cases (b) be required to change trains at Old Oak Common some rail services will be able to operate on the affected to clear customs under current plans for High Speed 2. lines albeit with some service restrictions. [182735] In addition it will be necessary to utilise some midweek night time closures, although wherever possible these Mr Goodwill: Arrangements for passport control and will combined with planned renewals activities. customs services, including whether passengers would In comparison, Network Rail have estimated that be required to change trains at Old Oak Common, will around 2,790 weekend closures of parts of the rail depend on the Home Office requirements in place at the network would be required if rail alternatives to the full time services are in operation. These will be developed HS2 Y network were adopted in its place. in co-ordination with the Home Office during the detailed design process. Mr Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State The designs of Old Oak Common and Birmingham for Transport what further plans he has for public Curzon Street stations allow space for customs facilities consultation on the use of the Washwood Heath site by to be provided, based on those utilised by Eurostar at High Speed 2. [182442] Ebbsfleet and St Pancras. We are currently consulting on the Phase Two route and station options and detailed Mr Goodwill: In addition to the consultations already design work of the stations at Manchester and Leeds carried out by the Department for Transport prior to will be undertaken after the planned route has been deposit of the High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands announced. Bill), there is now a period of public consultation on the Environmental Statement for the proposed scheme that closes on 24 January. Northern Rail There are no other plans for public consultation on the proposed London-West Midlands route. Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent progress he has made on the Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State acquisition of additional rolling stock for the Northern for Transport what assessment he has made of the Rail franchise. [182803] potential effect of closures on the road network as a result of the construction of High Speed 2; and if he Stephen Hammond: We issued a Request for Proposal will make a statement. [182545] for additional rolling stock to benefit from the ongoing electrification programme, and this has been responded Mr Goodwill: The traffic and transport impacts of all to by Northern. proposed temporary and permanent road and public We are currently evaluating their submission. right of way closures and associated diversions have been assessed in the Transport Assessment in Volume 5 Procurement of the Environmental Statement (ES) for the most likely scenarios. The resultant environmental effects are also included within the ES for each Community Forum Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Area (Volume 2 reports). for Transport what proportion of his Department’s overall procurement spend for each of the previous Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for three financial years was (a) spent on joint procurement Transport what recent representations he has received exercises with other departments and (b) shared between from (a) the China Railway Group, (b) Birmingham different organisations within the same department group. City Council and (c) Birmingham Airport on [182774] investment in links to High Speed 2 infrastructure. [182628] Stephen Hammond: The proportion of the Department’s overall procurement spend for the previous financial Mr Goodwill: Sir Albert Bore, Leader of Birmingham year spent on joint procurement exercises with other City Council, wrote to the Secretary of State for Transport, Departments was 21%. The figures for the two previous my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales financial years were not available within the time scale (Mr McLoughlin), on 20 December 2013, seeking his required to answer this question, but I will write to the 557W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 558W hon. Lady in due course to provide this information, Nick Boles [holding answer 13 January 2014]: The and place a copy of the letter in the Libraries of the Localism Act 2011 removed planning inspectors’ powers House. to impose changes on local authorities’ draft Local While there is collaboration within the departmental Plans. No local authorities have been ordered by the group on some procurement exercise, this is not material Planning Inspectorate or my Department to withdraw compared to the figures above. their draft Local Plan. Instead, following the Localism Act, during the public Railways: Cumbria examination process, independent planning inspectors now report to the local authority and identify any Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for conflicts between a draft Local Plan and national policy Transport (1) what steps he plans to take to ensure that and regulatory process. However, they are only able to the Cumbrian Coast railway line is protected from recommend modifications to overcome these issues if severe storm damage; [182799] they are asked to do so by the council itself. (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that rail services Councils are now able to suggest their own modifications in West Cumbria will be less affected by adverse for assessment by the inspector during the examination, weather conditions in future. [182800] as well as making minor non-material changes themselves. The council is then free to choose to accept the inspector’s Stephen Hammond: Network Rail own and operate modifications and adopt the draft plan, or resubmit Britain’s rail infrastructure. Included in their plans for a new plan. This approach is aimed at encouraging a Control Period 5 (2014-19) is a weather mitigation more collaborative process as the public examination strategy, to help reduce the impact of severe weather on proceeds. the network. From 1 January 2012 to 1 January 2014, 13 local Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for planning authorities withdrew their plans for amendment. Transport how many Network Rail delay minutes have been caused by adverse weather in Cumbria in each of Social Rented Housing: Essex the last five years. [182801] Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold Communities and Local Government what recent the data at this level of disaggregation. This is a matter assessment he has made of trends in rent arrears in for Network Rail. social housing in (a) Essex and (b) Chelmsford Railways: Weather constituency. [182757]

Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Kris Hopkins: I refer my right hon. Friend to my Transport how many (a) passenger and (b) freight or answer of 27 November 2013, Official Report, column non-passenger trains have been cancelled on the Network 340-341W. Rail London North Western route owing to adverse weather in each of the last five years. [182802]

Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold HOME DEPARTMENT the data requested either disaggregated by Network Rail route or by cause. This is a matter for Network Alcoholic Drinks: Sales Rail. Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what advice she provides to police COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT forces about action to be taken against individual or groups who threaten or take action against those Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing legally selling alcohol. [181482]

Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: It is lawful to sell alcohol under an Communities and Local Government what recent estimate appropriate licence. It is a long-standing tradition that he has made of any impact the implementation of the people are free to gather together and to demonstrate under-occupancy penalty in social housing has had on their views, provided that they do so within the law. the number of households accumulating rent arrears in Rights to peaceful protest do not extend to violent or (a) the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral, (b) Birkenhead threatening behaviour. The police have powers to act in constituency and (c) the UK. [182920] respect of a broad canvas of criminal offences relating to public disorder. Kris Hopkins: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave on 27 November 2013, Official Report, Animal Experiments column 340-341W. Local Plans Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many project licences have Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for been approved for scientific procedures that include Communities and Local Government how many local procedures on (a) cats and (b) dogs in each of the last plans his Department had ordered to be withdrawn to five years; and what the severity limit of each such be redrafted on 1 January 2014. [182144] procedure was. [182373] 559W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 560W

Norman Baker: From the information available to us, Norman Baker: The Home Office has made no such details of the numbers of project licences granted from specific assessment. Some police forces hold data on the 2009 to 2012 under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) number of thefts of catalytic converters but these data Act 1986 authorising the use of cats and dogs, and the are not collated centrally. On 28 November 2013, the overall severity band of the licences, are given in the Home Office published experimental statistics which attached table, ie 41 projects using dogs and 14 projects showed that between April 2012 and March 2013 there using cats from 2009-13 inclusive. were 28,843 infrastructure-related metal theft offences During 2013 five licences authorising the use of dogs recorded by police forces in England and Wales. This were granted, one authorising the use of cats and one figure includes catalytic converter thefts but it is not authorising the use of both cats and dogs. Following the broken down further. This publication can be found implementation of European Directive 2010/63/EU on using the following link: the protection of animals used for scientific purposes https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/metal-theft- on 1 January 2013 there has no longer been a requirement england-and-wales-financial-year-ending-march-2013/metal- to allocate an overall severity band to project licences. theft-england-and-wales-financial-year-ending-march-2013 The information for the severity limit of each individual Domestic Violence procedure is not held centrally and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many properties in each police Overall severity force area possess panic rooms for use by people Licences experiencing domestic violence. [182316] granted Mild Moderate

Dogs Norman Baker: The Home Office does not hold this information centrally. 2009 5 3 2 2010 5 4 1 G4S 2011 9 3 6 2012 10 4 6 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many contracts her Department has Cats awarded to G4S since 1 January 2013. [182614] 2009 2 1 1 James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 January 2014]: 2010 1 - 1 The Home Department has not awarded any contracts 2011 0 - - to G4S since 1 January 2013. 2012 3 - 3 Prescription Drugs: Misuse Cats and dogs 2009 0 - - Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home 2010 2 2 - Department how many times the Minister of State for 2011 2 2 - Crime Prevention has met with (a) chief constables 2012 2 1 1 and (b) police and crime commissioners to discuss combating prescription drug abuse in the last 12 months. Bovine Tuberculosis: South West [181671] Norman Baker [holding answer 13 January 2014]: Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Office Ministers have regular meetings with Home Department what additional funding she is ministerial colleagues and others as part of the process providing to (a) Avon and Somerset police and (b) of policy development and delivery. As was the case Gloucestershire police to meet the costs of policing the with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s badger cull. [182851] practice to provide details of all such meetings. Damian Green: The Department for Environment, We are fully aware of the dangers of prescription Food and Rural Affairs has agreed to cover any additional drug misuse. This is why in September 2013 the Home costs incurred by the relevant police forces as a result of Secretary asked the Advisory Council on the Misuse of policing the badger cull. Drugs (ACMD) to explore the potential for medical and social harms arising from the diversion and illicit Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the supply of prescription drugs. I have asked that this Home Department how many hours of overtime were work includes consideration of the prevalence of misuse, worked by police officers policing the pilot badger cull user demographics, and the most common drugs being in (a) Somerset and (b) Gloucestershire. [182946] misused. The ACMD is likely to report later in the year. Damian Green: This information is not held centrally. Procurement Catalytic Converters: Theft Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what proportion of her Department’s the Home Department what assessment she has made contracts have been let to companies with (a) one to of the number of thefts of catalytic converters in (a) five, (b) six to 49, (c) 50 to 250 and (d) more than 250 2013, (b) 2012 and (c) 2011. [181680] staff. [182675] 561W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 562W

James Brokenshire: Information on the proportion of HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION the Home Department’s contracts that have been let to Parliament: Educational Visits companies with one to five, six to 49 and 50 to 250 and more than 250 staff is not collated. To obtain this information would incur disproportionate costs. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the House of Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Commons Commission, how many school parties visited Home Department what proportion and value of her Parliament from each of the (a) English regions and Department’s contracts have been let (a) under the (b) other constituent parts of the UK in each of the restricted procedure, (b) by the open procedure, (c) last three years for which figures are available. [182707] via framework agreements and (d) via a tendering process involving the use of a pre-qualification John Thurso: The number of school parties visiting questionnaire in each of the last three years. [182692] Parliament from each of the (a) English regions and (b) other constituent parts of the UK in each of the James Brokenshire: Information on the proportion last three years is set out in the following table. The data and value of the Home Department’s contracts that refer to schools visiting Parliament on its core education have been let under the restricted procedure, by the programme; school groups visiting Parliament on Members’ open procedure via framework agreements and via a tours are not included. tendering process involving the use of a pre-qualification questionnaire in each of the last three years is not 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 collated. To obtain this information would incur Yorkshire and 34 schools 61 schools 78 schools disproportionate costs. Humber The number of contracts that have been let under the 38 visits 72 visits 99 visits restricted and open procedures can be found on Tenders 1,024 students 1,967 students 2,532 students Electronic Daily (TED) at: http://www.ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do North West 56 schools 72 schools 74 schools Serco 83 visits 96 visits 88 visits 2,186 students 2,434 students 2,198 students Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many contracts her Department has North East 13 schools 15 schools 22 schools awarded to Serco since 1 January 2013. [182613] 15 visits 16 visits 28 visits 386 students 302 students 612 students James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 January 2014]: The Home Department has not awarded any contracts to Serco since 1 January 2013. West 68 schools 79 schools 111 schools Midlands 123 visits 133 visits 176 visits 3,601 students 3,744 students 4,965 students NORTHERN IRELAND East 79 schools 73 schools 79 schools Parades Commission Midlands 91 visits 100 visits 135 visits 13. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for 2,390 students 2,635 students 3,653 students Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made of the work of the Parades Commission. [901931] South East 142 schools 172 schools 189 schools Mrs Villiers: The Parades Commission operates 222 visits 246 visits 304 visits independently of the Government in accordance with 5,732 students 6,393 students 7,762 students the Public Processions (NI) Act of 1998. I am certain that the new Parades Commission will East of 102 schools 92 schools 109 schools tackle the difficult role which they have taken on with England diligence and fortitude. 147 visits 129 visits 145 visits 3,748 students 3,218 students 3,852 students Security

London 228 schools 277 schools 312 schools 14. Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for 372 visits 479 visits 494 visits Northern Ireland what recent discussions she has had with the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland on the 10,406 students 13,258 students 13,229 students security situation in Northern Ireland. [901932] South West 47 schools 79 schools 85 schools Mrs Villiers: I hold regular meetings with the Chief 65 visits 113 visits 119 visits Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland 1,678 students 3,056 students 2,998 students and we speak frequently by phone. We discuss a range of subjects including police resourcing Scotland 21 schools 20 schools 15 schools and the general security situation in Northern Ireland. 563W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 564W

The reduction in CPS estate has not altered the fact 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 that on a daily basis CPS lawyers and administrators 28 visits 28 visits 20 visits work very closely with police colleagues to prosecute 613 students 664 students 464 students cases, including face to face meetings where these are appropriate. At the same time as making the changes to its operating Wales 33 schools 40 schools 33 schools model the CPS has undertaken to provide the police 52 visits 55 visits 52 visits with certain core commitments ranging across the provision 1,469 students 1,520 students 1,314 students of advice, charging decisions, advocacy in court, bespoke services for serious and complex cases, joint (CPS/Police) Northern 9 schools 7 schools 12 schools performance reviews, single points of contact to discuss Ireland issues or concerns, and regular meetings at senior 9 visits 7 visits 14 visits management levels both locally and nationally, to both 178 students 110 students 294 students maintain and build on current working relationships. The introduction of digital working by the CPS and Pay wider criminal justice system also means that its work can be conducted without reference to current geographical Mr Frank Field: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, or process boundaries. For example, national charging Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the House arrangements for volume cases were introduced in April of Commons Commission, pursuant to the answer of 2013 administered by CPS Direct (CPSD). This provides 11 December 2013, Official Report, column 226W, on a 24 hour digital and telephony charging service for pay, if he will publish the names of the six contractors every police force regardless of location. Equally, digitally who currently do not pay the London Living Wage to enabled remote working now allows prosecutors to all staff. [182755] work at short notice, when required, with the police in police stations and courts. John Thurso: We are continuing the exercise, described The net effect of the changes to the CPS’ operating in my previous answer, that aims to ensure that contractors model in terms of estates and digital working is therefore and subcontractors providing services to the House pay intended to enable prosecutors to provide a better service those workers assigned to our services the LLW.Discussions than ever before to the police in terms of expertise and are taking place with two contractors who have dedicated advice. workers carrying out a service on the Estate who do not currently pay all of those workers the LLW. We are Fraud doing the same with two companies who use a subcontractor based outside London to provide services to the House. These discussions might be prejudiced by Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how naming the contractors, and the individual workers are many (a) investigations, (b) prosecutions and (c) civil entitled to privacy in relation to the wages they are paid. settlements were undertaken by the Serious Fraud The wider exercise of identifying the wages paid by Office in 2013 and each of the five previous calendar more than 750 contractors and subcontractors providing years; and how many of these were against (i) services to the House continues at pace but is a massive individuals and (ii) corporations. [182436] task. Where instances of non-payment of a living wage are found, steps are being taken to address this. I will be The Solicitor-General: Information on prosecutions, able to provide a fuller update on the outcome of this .investigations and civil settlement undertaken by the process by the middle of April. Serious Fraud Office is provided as follows. The number of individuals and corporations under investigation changes over the course of a case lifecycle and it is therefore not possible to provide the figures in the ATTORNEY-GENERAL format requested. Data relating to a case may appear in Crown Prosecution Service more than one field. (a) All investigations Ian Paisley: To ask the Attorney-General what steps 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 he has taken to maintain the close working relationship Cases 20 16 15 13 19 9 between the police and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in light of the closures of CPS offices. [182322] (b) Prosecutions commenced 20081 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service (i) 28 40 55 22 12 24 (CPS) is committed to the effective and efficient prosecution Individuals of cases in every police force area in England and (ii) 111003 Wales. The CPS Board has concluded that there are real Corporations operational benefits to the CPS in consolidating its 1 These data may not be complete due to changes in the SFOs case teams into fewer, larger—digitally enabled—regional reporting systems. hubs. In addition to unlocking worthwhile financial (c) Civil settlements commenced savings, the office consolidations which have already 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 taken place have allowed teams carrying out similar (i) 000001 work to combine, accrue the benefits of economies of Individuals scale, sustain performance and increase resilience. 565W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 566W

(c) Civil settlements commenced Hinkley Point C Power Station 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (ii) 020420 Corporations and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the European Commission’s ongoing investigation into the proposed nuclear plant at Hinkley Point; and if he Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General what will make a statement. [182824] recent discussions the Director of the Serious Fraud Office has had with the Treasury about top-up funding Michael Fallon: We welcome the European Commission’s for major investigations; and what the outcome of investigation and the consultation that will follow which those discussions was. [182437] will seek views to enable the Commission to make a legally robust decision. Such investigations on the part The Solicitor-General: Any additional funding for of the European Commission are a standard part of the major investigations for the current financial year would process for interventions that are novel and complex. normally be applied for through the supplementary The Commission’s decision to investigate represents estimate process. Discussions regarding this process another important step forward in progression of the continue and the outcome will be announced in due state aid case for Hinkley. course. Nuclear Power Stations: Emergencies

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what work has been undertaken as ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE part of the National Strategic Planning review of emergency planning in the evacuation of populations in (a) the Energy: Meters three-mile radius detailed emergency planning zone and (b) the wider 30-mile radius zone around nuclear power plants following a serious release of radiation in an Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for accident when roads within both zones are impassable Energy and Climate Change how many and what due to heavy snow cover or extensive flooding. [182572] proportion of households in England use token prepayment meters. [182765] Michael Fallon: Detailed off-site plans for responding to reasonably foreseeable radiation emergencies are Gregory Barker: The major six energy supply companies developed by local authorities hosting nuclear sites in have programmes in place to replace token prepayment accordance with Regulation 9 of the Radiation (Emergency meters with similar meters that are operated by using Preparedness and Public Information) Regulations 2001 either a card or a key. Ofgem continues to monitor the (REPPIR). These plans focus upon areas surrounding companies’ progress with the replacement. nuclear sites known as Detailed Emergency Planning Zones (DEPZs). The sizes of these DEPZs differ from The following table shows the percentage of prepayment site to site, ranging from 1 km to 3.5 kilometres in meter customers still using a token at the end of 2012 radius. (latest data available). As of Quarter 3 of 2013, 16% of standard electricity customers in the UK were using Local authorities hosting nuclear sites are advised to prepayment meters. This figure is taken from table 2.4.2 draw up plans to enable them to extend measures described of DECC’s publication Quarterly Energy Prices. in their detailed plans if necessary (e.g. in response to very severe emergencies). These are known as “extendibility” Percentage of electricity PPM plans. Further information about extendibility planning customers1 is available on the gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ British Gas 0.2 attachment_data/file/69113/NEPLG_guidance_ch_9_- E.On 0 _extendibility.pdf EDF (inc. smart card) 0.06 Off-site plans cover the application of a range of npower 0.04 counter-measures, one of which is evacuation. Local SSE 0.25 authorities must ensure that their off-site plans are Scottish Power 0.1 resilient to a range of weather conditions (e.g. those 1 Ofgem data. leading to, or involving, flooding or heavy snow). In accordance with REPPIR, off-site plans are reviewed Energy: Prices and tested on a regular basis, to assess their accuracy and effectiveness, and are continually updated and Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for improved. The Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR) is Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral statement responsible for ensuring that such reviews and tests take of 2 December 2013, Official Report, column 631, on place. Further information about REPPIR is available energy bills, what recent discussions he has had with on the Health and Safety Executive’s website: energy suppliers on reductions in bills for customers on http://www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/ionising/reppir.htm fixed-term contracts. [182535] The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) and Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR) also Michael Fallon: Ministers have regular discussions continually assess the UK’s overall preparedness in with energy suppliers about a range of market issues, terms of planning for, and being able to respond to, including bills and contracts. nuclear emergencies. 567W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 568W

Following the events at Fukushima in Japan in 2011, This table was last published on 20 December 2013, ONR carried out a detailed assessment of the implications providing renewable electricity capacity data to the end of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami for the UK of September 2013. Data to December 2013, and for (the Weightman report), which included analysis and 2013 as a whole, will be available on 27 March 2014. recommendations concerning preparedness for severe Cumulative capacity, broken down by technology as at and prolonged emergencies. The report and the assessment the end of 2011,2012 and September 2013 (Q3 2013) are of progress against the report can be found on the given as follows: Health and Safety Executive’s website: Energy Trends Table 6.1 December 2013 http://www.hse.gov.uk/nuclear/fukushima/ Cumulative Installed Capacity Procurement (MW) 2011 2012 Q3 2013 Onshore Wind 4,638 5,893 7,120 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Offshore Wind 1,838 2,995 3,657 for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of his Shoreline wave/ 377 Department’s overall procurement spend for each of tidal the previous three financial years was (a) spent on joint procurement exercises with other Departments Solar photovoltaics 993 1,706 2,542 and (b) shared between different organisations within Small scale Hydro 204 215 220 the same Department group. [182773] Large scale Hydro 1,471 1,471 1,471 Landfill gas 1,050 1,036 1,044 Gregory Barker: The information requested is not Sewage sludge 198 199 206 held centrally and can be provided only at disproportionate digestion cost. Energy from waste 544 593 599 The Department uses Crown Commercial Services Animal Biomass 111 111 111 framework agreements that are compiled on behalf of (non-AD) the whole of Government. From April to the end of Anaerobic 66 110 122 November 2013 the Department has spent £25,094,543 Digestion through these arrangements. Plant Biomass 1,149 1,203 1,992 Total 12,264 15,538 19,091 Renewable Energy Co-firing 338 204 36 Note: Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Table ET6.1 shows total cumulative capacity, as at the end of the Energy and Climate Change (1) how much tidal generation stated period, and will be net of any reductions in capacity (for capacity was installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013; example, the closure of Tilbury biomass station in August 2013). [182498] Supply Estimates (2) how much offshore wind generation capacity was installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013; [182499] (3) how much onshore wind generation capacity was Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change with reference to Annex A installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013; [182500] of his Department’s Main Estimate 2013-14 entitled (4) how much biomass generation capacity was Detailed breakdown of Part II table changes from installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013; [182501] 2012-13, (a) what programmes are supported and (b) (5) how much small-scale hydroelectric generation how much funding each such programme receives capacity was installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013; under the sub-headings (i) K Manage our energy [182502] legacy responsibility and cost-effectively, (ii) L Nuclear (6) how much large-scale hydroelectric generation Decommissioning Authority (NDPB), (iii) M Coal capacity was installed in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013. Authority (NDPB) and (iv) N Civil Nuclear Police [182503] Authority (NDPB). [182704]

Gregory Barker: This information is available in DECC’s Gregory Barker: A detailed breakdown of the quarterly publication of Energy Trends, Table 6.1, available programmes supported under the sub-headings and the at: budgets for 2012-13 and 2013-14 at the time of the main https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/renewables- estimate is held on the HM Treasury database OSCAR, section-6-energy-trends and is shown in the following table.

£000 Resource Capital 2012-13 2013-14 Change 2012-13 2013-14 Change

K Manage our energy legacy 1,065,351 (232,293) (1,297,644) 33,462 (50,000) (83,462) responsibility and cost-effectively British Energy 92,594 (184,487) (277,081) - - - Coal Health Liabilities 16.517 (1,547) (18,064) - - - Coal Pensions 926,000 0 (926,000) 33,462 (50,000) (83,462) 569W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 570W

£000 Resource Capital 2012-13 2013-14 Change 2012-13 2013-14 Change

Coal Privatisation Liabilities 220 0 (220) - - - Concessionary Fuel 30,020 (46,259) (76,279) - - -

L Nuclear Decommissioning 6,834,000 597,000 (6,237,000) - - - Authority (NDPB) Nuclear Decommissioning 6,834,000 597,000 (6,237,000) - - - Authority AME

M Coal Authority (NDPB) 174,000 5,972 (168,028) - - - Coal Authority AME 174,000 5,972 (168,028) - - -

N Civil Nuclear Police Authority 62 63 1 - - - (NDPB) Civil Nuclear Police Authority 62 63 1 - - - AME

Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for (iv) H Committee on Climate Change (NDPB), (v) I Energy and Climate Change with reference to Annex A Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Income (CFER) of his Department’s Main Estimate 2013-14 entitled and (vi) J Electricity Market Reform. [182705] Detailed breakdown of Part II table changes from 2012-13, (a) what programmes are supported and (b) Gregory Barker: A detailed breakdown of the how much funding each such programme receives programmes supported under the sub-headings and the under the sub-headings (i) E Deliver the capability Budgets for 2012-13 and 2013-14 at the time of the DECC needs to achieve its goals, (ii) F NDA and SLC Main Estimate is held on the HM Treasury database expenditure (NDPB), (iii) G Coal Authority (NDPB), OSCAR, and is shown in the following table:

£000 Resource Capital 2012-13 2013-14 Change 2012-13 2013-14 Chance

E Deliver the capability DECC needs to achieve 129,889 154,421 24,532 31,696 7,695 (24,001) its goals Corporate Services and Strategy 3,706 20,691 16,985 31,696 7,695 (24,001) Deliver the Capability DECC Needs to achieve 126,183 133,730 7,547 — — — its goals (Admin)

F NDA and SLC expenditure (NDPB) 1,353,621 1,456,263 102,642 1,784,00 0 1,601,000 (183,000) Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (Admin) 41,000 48,000 7,000 — — — Nuclear Decommissioning Authority 1,312,621 1,408,263 95,642 1,784,00 0 1,601,000 (183,000)

G Coal Authority (NDPB) 30,164 31,335 1,171 3,550 7,700 4,150 Coal Authority (Admin) 4,928 4,442 (486) Coal Authority 25,236 26,893 1,657 3,550 7,700 4,150

H Committee on Climate Change (NDPB) 3,409 3,588 179 — — — Committee on Climate Change (Admin) 3,409 3,588 179 — — — I Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Income (835,000) (729,000) 106,000 (57,000) (55,000) 2,000 (CFER) Nuclear Decommissioning Authority CFER (835,000) (729,000) 106,000 (57,000) (55,000) 2,000

J Electricity Market Reform 0 (4,851) (4,851)——— Electricity Market Reform (Admin) 0 (200) (200)——— Electricity Market Reform 0 (4,651) (4,651)———

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT encourage the EU to further integrate gender equality Developing Countries: Equality into its development programmes. [182389] Lynne Featherstone: Preliminary programming is Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for underway for the next financing period for European International Development what steps she is taking to Union (EU) development assistance, covering 2014-2020. 571W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 572W

My officials are working closely with counterparts in Mr Swire: While environmental contamination is always the Commission, the European External Action Service of concern, this is a matter between Chevron and the and other member states to ensure that gender equality Ecuadorean Government and it is for them to decide is fully integrated in the legal regulations and operational how to resolve the issue. guidelines that form the framework for EU development programmes over that period. We want to see EU Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State development assistance geared towards empowering girls for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his and women, to enable them to have voice, choice and Department has discussed the issue of environmental control, as we are doing in our bilateral programmes. and social damage caused by Chevron-Texaco in The hon. Member for Stone’s Private Member’s Bill, Ecuador with his counterparts in the Ecuadorian and which this Government supports, aims at adding further US governments. [182790] drive and focus to HMG’s strong commitment to support for girls and women as part of the UK’s international Mr Swire: This is a matter between Chevron and the development effort. If passed into law we see this as a Ecuadorean Government and it is for them to decide model for others, including the EU, to step up action. how to resolve the issue. We have not discussed with either the Ecuadorean Government or the US Procurement administration. The UK uses international fora to promote the highest Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State environmental and regulatory standard for the extraction for International Development what proportion of her of petrochemicals, particularly in environmentally sensitive Department’s overall procurement spend for each of areas. We encourage state actors and private companies the previous three financial years was (a) spent on to adhere to these standards. joint procurement exercises with other departments European Citizen Action Services and (b) shared between different organisations within the same department group. [182772] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Lynne Featherstone: The information is as follows: correspondence his Department has had with the European (a) During 2010-11, DFID spend on collaborative Citizens Action Service. [182174] procurement exercises accounted for 2.6% of total procurement. During 2011-12, spend on collaborative Mr Lidington: I am not aware of any correspondence procurement exercises accounted for 1.9% of total between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) procurement. In 2012-13 DFID spend accounted for and the European Citizens Action Service. However, 3.7%. the FCO does not hold records centrally for correspondence (b) DFID is a standalone department. received by all of our offices in the UK and overseas so responding to this question in full would incur disproportionate cost.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Colombia Battle of Waterloo: Anniversaries

Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Media and Sport what proposals she is considering for has had with his EU counterparts on procedures for the formal commemoration of the 200th anniversary of scrutinising and enforcing Colombian compliance with the Battle of Waterloo. [181466] human rights clauses in the trade agreement between the EU and Colombia. [182706] Mrs Grant: Planning for the commemoration, in 2015, of the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo Mr Swire: Although no specific conversations have is being carried out by Waterloo 200, an umbrella taken place between my the Secretary of State for organisation which is overseeing the anniversary. More Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. information can be found on its website at the following Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) link: and EU counterparts on procedures for scrutinising www.waterloo200.org and enforcing Colombian compliance with human rights In the June 2013 budget, the Chancellor announced clauses in the trade agreement, there are regular discussions funding circa £1 million will be allocated to restore the between UK, EU and European Commission officials site of the battle. within a number of working groups on this subject. I was also pleased to announce in October 2013 that at least £10 million is being set aside by the Heritage Ecuador Lottery Fund over the next four years to fund projects marking some of the UK’s most important anniversaries Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and commemorative events, like the bicentenary of the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports Battle of Waterloo. Further online guidance and advice he has received regarding damage caused by US oil will be available to applicants later this month at: company Chevron-Texaco in Ecuador. [182789] www.hlf.org.uk 573W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 574W

Football framework agreements and (d) via a tendering process involving the use of a pre-qualification questionnaire in Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, each of the last three years. [182685] Media and Sport what steps she is taking to ensure that the police support the Football Association in its efforts Mrs Grant: The information is as follows: to tackle conduct offences amongst spectators at under-18 (a) under the restricted procedure; matches. [182293] 2011: 0 Mrs Grant: Since 2008, the FA’s Respect programme 2012: 0 has sought to improve behaviour in youth football on 2013: 1 @ £150 million and off the pitch: successes include a 21% reduction in (b) by the open procedure; assaults against referees since 2010-11. This year the FA will pilot an additional ‘Respect Disciplinary course’ to 2011: 1 @ £800,000 challenge some of the negative attitudes displayed by 2012: 2 @ £360,000 adults in children’s football, alongside existing fines 2013: 1 @ £125,000 and sanctions. Criminal offences committed by any (c) via framework agreements and; spectator remain a matter for the police. 2011: 3 @ £8.7 million Procurement 2012: 3 @ £2.74million 2013: 1 @ £125,000 Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, (d) via a tendering process involving the use of a Media and Sport what weighting her Department’s pre-qualification questionnaire in each of the last three procurement procedures give to (a) the location of a years. company and its workforce, (b) the extent to which a company has a strong environmental record, (c) whether 2011: 0 the company is a social enterprise and (d) other company 2012: 0 history prior performance. [182634] 2013: 1 @ £150 million Mrs Grant: Under current department procurement policies all relevant contracts are awarded to ensure it obtains the most economically advantageous tender. Within that assessment a range of criteria can be used DEFENCE when deciding upon bids that encompass when required different elements ranging from past performance to Armed Forces: Pensions environmental credentials, however these will be dependent upon the services being requested. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, how many armed forces widows who receive a pension Media and Sport how many and what value of contracts through the 1975 Armed Forces Scheme have voluntarily procured by her Department in the last five years was surrendered their pensions on remarriage or cohabitation since the introduction of the scheme. [181403] carried out below EU thresholds. [182651]

Mrs Grant: The information is as follows: Anna Soubry: The number of armed forces widows who receive a pension through the Armed Forces Scheme Contracts Total value (£) 1975 who have had their pension suspended on remarriage or cohabitation since 2001, the earliest date for which 2009 124 1,470,977 figures are available, is 987. The provision of information 2010 115 1,197,327 for the period from 1975-2001 could be provided only at 2011 396 2,352,532 disproportionate cost. 2012 392 3,891,616 It has long been the policy of successive Governments 2013 372 2,634,443 that changes or improvement to public sector pension schemes should not be applied retrospectively. This is Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, because legacy pension issues cannot be looked at in Media and Sport what proportion of her Department’s isolation; addressing one issue would increase the pressure contracts have been let to companies with (a) one to to address legacy issues in all public sector pension five, (b) six to 49, (c) 50 to 250 and (d) more than 250 schemes, and this would have huge financial implications. staff. [182668]

Mrs Grant: The Department does not hold this Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for information in the detail that the question has asked Defence if he will make it his policy to rescind the for. We can say that the core department and its associated ruling that widows in receipt of an armed forces bodies currently have 31.9% of its total procurement pension are no longer entitled to receive it should they spend with Small and Medium sized Enterprises. re-marry. [182093]

Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Anna Soubry: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Media and Sport what proportion and value of her I gave on 9 January 2013, Official Report, column Department’s contracts have been let (a) under the 289W, to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and restricted procedure, (b) by the open procedure, (c) via Arran (Katy Clark). 575W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 576W

Armed Forces: Redundancy Military Aircraft

Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for how many members of the armed forces have been Defence if he will estimate the total cost of Operation made compulsorily redundant within three months of Weatherman; and which aircraft were involved. [182428] qualifying for a full military pension in the last five years. [182290] Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 28 November 2013, Official Report, column 432W. Anna Soubry: The number of armed forces personnel Costs associated with the repair and recovery of made compulsorily redundant within three months of aircraft to date total some £8.7 million. As some aircraft qualifying for a full military pension in the last five are still being assessed for repair, the total cost of years is less than five. Full military pension is payable at Operation Weatherman is not yet known. age 55 and is different to Immediate Pension or Early Military Bases: North West Departure Payment which can be drawn prior to age 55. Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Army: North West (1) whether he plans to move any regimental bases to the North West; [182283] Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (2) if he will make an assessment of the savings of how many soldiers were recruited from the North West relocating regiments to the North West. [182285] in each of the last five years for which figures are available. [182282] Dr Murrison: The Army Basing Plan considered a variety of options in order to deliver an appropriate Anna Soubry: The total number of Army soldiers geographic spread of units across the UK, following recruited within the north-west is shown in the following reorganisation under Army 2020. The work determined table. The periods shown reflect recruiting years, which that the three main Regular Army locations in the run from April to March. north-west (Chester, Preston and Weeton) should be retained, and that 3 Medical Regiment would move Recruiting year Regular soldiers Reserve soldiers from its current location in Catterick to Fulwood Barracks in Preston. There are currently no additional plans to 2008-09 1,800 460 move any additional Regiments to the north-west or to 2009-10 1,890 390 rationalise the estate in the north-west. 2010-11 1,220 420 Savings from the Army Basing Plan will be realised, 2011-12 1,680 490 over time, in three areas: firstly, the significant running 2012-13 1,360 370 cost savings associated with the withdrawal from Germany; Note: secondly, the efficiencies gained from moving to a more 1. Figures have been rounded to 10. Numbers ending in ‘5’ have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias. regionally based Army structure within the UK; and 2. The north-west is defined as the geographical area covered by the thirdly, the disposal of surplus barracks in and around Army’s 42 (North West) Brigade, namely Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Canterbury, Shrewsbury, Edinburgh, Stirling, Ripon Manchester, Merseyside, Cheshire and the Isle of Man. and Brawdy as announced by the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede Army: Transport and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), in his Army Basing Plan Statement on 5 March 2013, Official Report, columns Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 845-8. what the average transport cost of soldiers returning for a home visit was in each of the last five years for Peacekeeping Operations which figures are available. [182281] Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in which countries British soldiers are engaged in Mr Dunne: The information requested is not held peace-keeping missions; and what the total cost to the centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate public purse has been of each deployment of UK cost. defence personnel in each case. [177966]

Hercules Aircraft Mr Francois: British personnel are currently supporting the UN peace-keeping operations in Cyprus (UNFICYP), Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Democratic Republic of Congo (MONUSCO), South Defence if he will estimate the cost of the repair Sudan (UNMISS) and the EU mission in Bosnia contract given to Marshall Aviation for the damage the Herzegovina (EUFOR ALTHEA). five C130J Hercules suffered in the hail storm in The UK contribution to the Cyprus mission has an Kandahar on 23 April 2013. [182432] annual Ministry of Defence (MOD) budget of £17.750 million. Mr Dunne: Repairs to the five C130J Hercules aircraft MOD costs, based on capitation rates for financial are being undertaken via existing contractual arrangements. year (FY) 2014-15, are estimated to be in the region of We estimate the total cost of repair may be up to £10 £310,000 per annum for UK personnel deployed in the million. Some £5.9 million of repair work has already Democratic Republic of Congo, and £45,000 per annum been completed by Marshall Aerospace and Defence for personnel in South Sudan. There is an additional Group and all five aircraft are now back in service. cost to the MOD budget for personnel allowances; 577W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 578W however, these vary depending on entitlements, are Territorial Army not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The cost to the MOD of supporting the Bosnia Defence how many people have joined the Territorial Herzegovina mission in FY 2012-13 was around £800,000. Army in (a) Ribble Valley constituency, (b) Lancashire This includes manpower costs, real life support costs, and (c) the UK in each of the last five years. [182162] pre-deployment training and the operational rehearsal for those personnel involved. Again, these costs do not Anna Soubry [holding answer 13 January 2014]: The include personnel allowances which are not held centrally estimated number of people who have joined the Territorial and could be provided only at disproportionate costs. Army in Lancashire and the UK since April 2012 is Procurement shown in the following table. Information for the Ribble Valley constituency is not held in the format requested. Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what weighting his Department’s procurement procedures Financial year (FY) FY 2013-14 to Inflow 2012-13 31 October 13 give to (a) the location of a company and its workforce, (b) the extent to which a company has a strong Lancashire 35 1— environmental record, (c) whether the company is a Total UK 4,040 1,540 social enterprise and (d) other company history prior 1 Fewer than 5. performance. [182635] Notes: 1. Information prior to April 2012 is not held in the format requested. 2. All figures are provisional. Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) complies 3. Total UK figures have been rounded to 10; numbers ending in ″5″ with the EU Treaty principles of transparency, non- have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic discrimination on the grounds of nationality and equal bias. Subtotal figures for Lancashire have been rounded to the nearest treatment for all suppliers in the EU, under which five to limit disclosure and ensure confidentiality. MOD acquisition teams will consider issues, such as Source: prior performance and environment record, where they Defence Statistics (Army) are relevant to seeking the best value for money in Unmanned Air Vehicles procurement.

Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proportion of his Department’s contracts have pursuant to the answer of 11 December 2013, Official been let to companies with (a) one to five, (b) six to 49, Report, column 255W,on Afghanistan, what the number, (c) 50 to 250 and (d) more than 250 staff. [182669] squadron and rank is of each US Air Force personnel manning UK Reapers on non-UK missions outside the Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does launch and recovery phase. [182421] not distinguish between suppliers to such an extent and only records whether a supplier meets the European Anna Soubry: UK Reaper Remotely Piloted Aircraft Union definition of a Small and Medium-sized Enterprise Systems (RPAS) are International Security and Assistance (SME), i.e. those businesses with fewer than 250 employees Force (ISAF) assets which are tasked by the ISAF Joint and with a turnover of less than ¤50 million or balance Command to support ISAF forces on the ground. This sheet less than ¤43 million. No further breakdown is includes supporting both UK forces and UK coalition available as such an analysis would not directly support partners. In all cases, UK Reaper RPAS are operated in policy making or operations. line with UK procedures and rules of engagement. Information on the proportion of contracts the MOD Outside of the launch and recovery phase, UK Reaper has placed with SMEs is available in the MOD Official RPAS have always been operated by UK pilots. Statistics publication ’MOD Contracting with Small and Medium-sized Enterprises’ which is available at the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence following link: pursuant to the answer of 11 December 2013, Official http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/finance-and- Report, column 256W, on armed forces: deployment, economics/MOD-contracting-with-small-and-medium-sized- what the Urgent Operational Requirement is for the five enterprises/financial-year-2012-13/2012-13.pdf additional UK Reaper aircraft. [182422] Table 1 of this publication shows that in financial years 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 the proportion by Mr Dunne: The purchase of five additional reaper volume of all new contracts placed by the MOD with remotely piloted aerial systems (RPAS) will increase SMEs was 36%, 37% and 36% respectively. the UK Reaper RPAS capability in Afghanistan, providing additional armed intelligence, surveillance Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and reconnaissance support to UK ground forces. what proportion and value of his Department’s contracts have been let (a) under the restricted procedure, (b) by I am unable to provide further details as to do so the open procedure, (c) via framework agreements and would prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security (d) via a tendering process involving the use of a of the armed forces. pre-qualification questionnaire in each of the last three years. [182686] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what current joint activities of the Unmanned Aerial Mr Dunne: The information is not held centrally and Systems Programme are carried out under the Technical could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Co-operation Programme. [182425] 579W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 580W

Mr Dunne: There are three current joint activities of (a) in joint procurement exercises with other departments the Unmanned Air Systems (UAS) Programme carried and (b) shared between different organisations within out under The Technical Cooperation Program (TTCP). the same department group. [182699] These are: CAGE (Coalition Attack Guidance Experiment), which is a Elizabeth Truss: The information requested is not distributed Synthetic Environment experiment designed to held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate understand coalition UAS command and control; cost. However,for the 2012-13 financial year,the Department MC-MACE (Monitoring and Controlling Multiple Assets in for Education holds information on the aggregate value Complex Environment), which is a collaboration to investigate of contracts that have been called off from Crown multi-UAS control; and Commercial Service framework agreements, which are Project BRISTOW, which is a trial to investigate counter UAS negotiated on behalf of all Government Departments. technologies. For year ending March 2013 the value of spend through Through TTCP,the UAS programme shares information, Crown Commercial Service framework agreements was at a Government-to- Government level, on national £63.42 million. UAS research activities, and research plans, with a view For the financial year 2012-13, savings for the taxpayer to sharing lessons and identifying burden-sharing achieved by using the Government’s bulk-buying power collaboration opportunities. The results of TTCP activities and pooling spend on goods and services used by assist each participant in meeting defence requirements, different Government Departments totalled £1 billion. while avoiding unnecessary duplication of effort. Schools: Defibrillators

EDUCATION Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 11 November 2013, Official Children: Day Care Report, column 635, what recent discussions he has had on the provision of defibrillators in schools. [182296] Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the oral answer of 6 January Mr Laws: Since November 2013, the Secretary of 2014, Official Report, column 14, on childcare costs, if State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member he will give further details of how the figure of £18 billion for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has been considering was estimated. [182548] the British Heart Foundation’s very helpful report which my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has (Andrew Percy), presented to him following an earlier estimated the cost of a full-time child care offer of 50 meeting. hours per week for 50 weeks of the year for all children aged one to four in England would be over £21 billion At present, Government policy is that it is a matter per annum. The assumptions behind this are shown in for individual schools to decide whether to have a the following table: defibrillator and to arrange for suitable training of the school workforce in its use. The hon. Member will also Take-up wish to note, however, that we have placed an amendment of hours Estimated in the Children and Families Bill to create a new duty Size of Hours per assumption3 Hourly cost5 1 2 4 on governing bodies of maintained schools (and proprietors Age cohort year (percentage) rate (£) (£ billion) of academies) to make arrangements to support pupils One 665,000 2,500 65 6.00 6.5 at school with medical conditions and to have regard to Two 665,000 2,500 80 5.03 6.8 statutory guidance. The guidance is currently being Three 665,000 2,500 90 4.00 6.0 developed in collaboration with members of the Health Four 225,000 2,500 90 4.00 2.0 Conditions in Schools Alliance, schools and with parents Total————21.3and young people. We intend to consult on the draft 1 Estimate of size of eligible cohort, not referring to a specific year. The size of guidance later this term. the four-year-old cohort is reduced to reflect that a substantial proportion of these children will, be in school reception classes. Secondary Education: Hartlepool 2 For the purpose of the estimate, a full-time offer is assumed to be 50 hours per week for 50 weeks of the year. 3 Assumption of potential take-up of the offer. This incorporates an assumption Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for of both numbers of parents who will take up the offer, and of how many hours Education what steps he is taking to improve transition they will use. 4 Estimate of potential hourly rate, taking account of higher cost of provision from primary to secondary school by pupils in Hartlepool for younger ages. Please note that these are intended as high level estimates and constituency; and if he will make a statement. [182440] should not be taken as indicative of future funding levels. 5 Shown to one decimal place. Mr Laws: The Government recognises that the transition Government spending on the existing early education from primary to secondary school is a crucial time for entitlement will rise to circa £3 billion in 2014-15, all pupils. implying an additional cost of £18 billion per annum. For the past two years the Government has made up In addition to the ongoing costs, there would be both to £50 million of funding from the pupil premium capital and revenue costs associated with building the available to secondary schools that choose to deliver a capacity to deliver an offer of this scale. These costs one or two week summer school. The purpose of the have not been included in the estimate. programme is to make the transition from year 6 to year Procurement 7 more successful for disadvantaged children. Over 58,000 pupils in almost 2,000 secondary schools took part Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Education during summer 2013, including 200 pupils in five Hartlepool what proportion of his Department’s overall procurement schools. Schools in Hartlepool received £90,250 of summer spend for each of the last three financial years was spent school funding in 2012-13 and £106,250 in 2013-14. 581W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 582W

For pupils leaving primary school with weaknesses in into operational deaths of Service personnel killed overseas literacy and numeracy, we are providing a catch-up can now be carried out in Scotland, reducing additional premium for pupils in year 7. Schools can use this stress on bereaved families. Responsibility for Coroners money to provide extra support to pupils who failed to and Inquests sits with the Ministry of Justice. reach the expected standard in primary school so that More information on the work that has been taken they can benefit fully from their secondary education. forward since the Covenant was enshrined in law—through Hartlepool schools received a total of £95,000 from the the Armed Forces Act 2011—can be found in the annual catch-up premium in 2012-13. The allocations for 2013-14 reports on the Covenant, published by the Ministry of are expected to be announced in February 2014. Defence. The latest report can be found at: It is for individual head teachers, ideally with input https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/armed-forces- from primary school teachers who understand the specific covenant-annual-report needs of individual pupils, to decide the specific transition and copies of the reports since 2011 are placed in the arrangements that are appropriate for their school and Library of the House. their individual pupils. Industry Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the share of (a) manufacturing, (b) financial CABINET OFFICE and (c) non-financial services as a proportion of the total UK economy was in each year since 2009. [182925] Armed Forces Covenant Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Dan Jarvis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office for what reason his note of 6 December 2013 on asked the authority to reply. implementing the Military Covenant did not include Letter from Peter Fullerton, dated January 2014: reference to any activity related to the Ministry of On behalf of the Director General for the Office for National Justice. [182764] Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office, what the Mr Letwin: My note to colleagues on the Armed share of (a) manufacturing, (b) financial and (c) non-financial services as a proportion of the total UK economy was in each Forces Covenant, dated 6 December 2013, did include year since 2009. (182925) reference to Ministry of Justice activity. Specifically it The office for National Statistics publishes breakdowns of UK talked about steps taken to appoint the first Chief gross value added in the annual Blue Book publication. The data Coroner, whose role includes monitoring investigations can be found in the Blue Book time series dataset published on into service deaths; and also to ensure that investigations the National Statistics website:

Percentage Financial and Insurance Non Financial Agriculture Production Manufacturing Construction Services Acts Services

2009 0.6 14.8 10.3 6.4 78.2 10.7 67.5 2010 0.7 15.2 10.4 6.3 77.8 9.5 68.3 2011 0.7 15.1 10.3 6.4 77.8 8.5 69.3 2012 0.7 14.6 10.1 6.0 78.7 7.9 70.8

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data- Letter from Caron Walker, dated January 2014: selector.html?table-id=2.3&dataset=bb Data has been sourced from the Blue Book 2013 publication. On behalf of the Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Shares have been calculated as the percentage of gross value Question asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, the rate of added an industry group contributes to total UK gross value unemployment among young men of (a) Afro-Caribbean, (b) added. Bangladeshi and Pakistani, (c) other Asian and (d) other ethnic Financial sector has been defined as section K (Financial and minority origin. 182716 Insurance Activities) of the UK Standard Industrial Classification 2007. Information on unemployment by ethnic group is collected by Non Financial Services has been defined as all Services minus the Annual Population Survey (APS). The available information section K. is provided in the attached table for the period July 2012 to June 2013. Unemployment: Ethnic Groups Unemployment among 16 to 24 year old men, by ethnic group. Twelve month period July 2012 to June 2013. United Kingdom, not seasonally Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet adjusted Office what recent estimate he has made of the rate of Unemployment rate1 unemployment among young men of (a) Afro-Caribbean, (percentage) (b) Bangladeshi and Pakistani, (c) other Asian and (d) other ethnic minority origin. [182716] All Ethnicities 23 Black/African/Caribbean/Black 47 Mr Hurd [holding answer 14 January 2014]: The British information requested falls within the responsibility of Pakistani and Bangladeshi 42 the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Any other Asian background2 23 to reply. Other ethnic minority group 34 583W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 584W

1 The number unemployed as a proportion of the economically active Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for population in each group. Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the 2 Includes Indian, Chinese and other Asian groups. Source: total amount of housing benefit wrongly withheld from Annual Population Survey (APS) people under the removal of the spare room subsidy whose eligible rent should have been determined in accordance with regulations 12 and 13 as set out in paragraph 5 of Schedule 3 to the Housing Benefit and WORK AND PENSIONS Council Tax Benefit (Consequential Provisions) Regulations 2006; and what estimate he has made of the average loss Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing for each household affected. [182766]

Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: The Department does not hold all the Work and Pensions what savings he expects to realise as detailed information needed to make a precise estimate a result of the implementation of the under-occupancy of the numbers affected or the average loss this represents penalty in each year to 2015-16. [182750] for each household. It is estimated the numbers affected are likely to be Esther McVey: The intention of this policy is to fewer than 5,000 nationally. ensure fairer use of housing stock. The estimated savings in each year for the Removal of Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the Spare Room Subsidy measure are £490 million Work and Pensions (1) what steps he is taking to ensure in 2013-14, £525 million in 2014-15 and £560 million in that people who have lost housing benefit under the 2015-16. removal of the spare room subsidy but should not have done so are informed of their actual housing benefit Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for entitlement; and if he will make a statement; [182768] Work and Pensions how much expenditure his Department (2) what steps he is taking to ensure refunds are paid has allocated to discretionary housing payments for to people who have lost housing benefit under the tenants in the social housing sector in each year to removal of the spare room subsidy but should not have 2015-16. [182751] done so, due to their eligible rent not having been determined in accordance with regulations 12 and 13 as Steve Webb: The Department does not hold data that set in paragraph 5 of Schedule 3 to the Housing Benefit distinguishes between discretionary housing payments and Council Tax Benefit (Consequential Provisions) (DHP) allocated to tenants in the private sector and Regulations 2006. [182769] those in the social sector. The total Government contribution in DHPs to local authorities from 2001-02 Esther McVey: It is for local authorities to ensure that to 2014-15 is detailed in the table. people have their correct housing benefit entitlement. DHPs are provided for local authorities to use according A bulletin has been issued advising local authorities to their own priorities and policies. From 2011-12 the of the anomaly which will mean that some social sector DHP amount made available has been increased to tenants are not subject to the removal of the spare room support people through the reforms to housing benefit subsidy until the legislation is amended. across the private and social sectors. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Amount of Government Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Year of DHP allocation per annum contribution (£ million) number of people who have lost housing benefit under 2001-02 115 the removal of the spare room subsidy but should not 2002-03 20 have done so, due to their eligible rent not having been 2003-04 20 determined in accordance with regulations 12 and 13 as 2004-05 20 set in paragraph 5 of Schedule 3 to the Housing Benefit 2005-06 20 and Council Tax Benefit (Consequential Provisions) 2006-07 20 Regulations 2006; and of those, how many have left 2007-08 20 their homes. [182770] 2008-09 20 2009-10 20 Esther McVey: The Department does not hold all the 2010-11 20 detailed information needed to make a precise estimate of the numbers affected. On the information currently 2011-12 30 available, we estimate the numbers affected are likely to 2012-13 60 be fewer than 5,000. 2013-14 180 2014-15 165 Information is not available regarding those who may 1 The DHP scheme was introduced from July 2001, and so the funding be affected and who have moved house. for that year was threequarter of £20 million. i.e. £15 million in total. As announced in the autumn statement 5 December Jobcentre Plus: Torbay 2013, Official Report, columns 1101-1113, the Government will increase DHPs by £40 million in 2015-16. This will Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ensure that support available to people affected by the and Pensions how many (a) full-time and (b) part-time removal of the spare room subsidy is maintained and vacancies were advertised in Jobcentre Plus in Torbay local authorities have the confidence to offer long term local authority area in each quarter in each of the last awards where appropriate. three years. [182276] 585W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 586W

Esther McVey: The information is as follows: Of the contracts the Department for Work and Pensions Total number of full-time and part-time jobs within Torbay local let during the period 1 April 2010 to 13 January 2014: authority (a) four were let via collaborative exercises with other Government Full-time jobs Part-time jobs Departments. The proportion of the overall contracts value was less than 1%. October to 1,744 506 (b) 48 contracts included access for organisations within the December 2013 Department for Work and Pensions group. The proportion of the July to September 1,984 601 overall contracts value was 52%. 2013 April to June 2013 1,264 464 January to March 1,234 467 Universal Credit 2013 November to 605 314 December 20121 Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and October to 1,135 577 Pensions if he will make an assessment of the effect on November 20121 the projected employment rate of female workers (a) July to September 1,494 1,237 with children and (b) without children of freezing the 2012 work allowance in universal credit in each of the next April to June 2012 1,634 1,264 three financial years. [182334] January to March 1,157 1,071 2012 Esther McVey: Under universal credit, the amount October to 1,217 840 December 2011 someone can earn in work before their benefits are July to September 1,319 968 reduced is much more generous than under the existing 2011 system, where people can be effectively penalised for April to June 2011 1,471 1,167 moving into work. The changes included in the autumn January to March 1,239 763 statement 5 December 2013, Official Report, columns 2011 1101-1113, will help ensure that overall benefit expenditure 1 Sources-NOMIS from January 2011 and Universal Jobmatch from is sustainable, while still maintaining a better targeted November 2012 onwards. and more generous system under universal credit. Administrative data on the number of vacancies held Universal credit will encourage claimants to move locally by Jobcentre Plus was published until the end of into employment. It is estimated that up to 300,000 last year and can be accessed by following this link: individuals will move into work as a result of universal http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/construct/ credit, through improved financial incentives, increased summary.asp?mode=construct&version=0&dataset=89 simplicity of the system and increased conditionality. and selecting the ’notified’ vacancies variable and the relevant geography and time period. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Universal Jobmatch has replaced the previous Jobcentre Pensions if he will make an assessment of the impact of Plus system of taking vacancies. Information on vacancies the freezing of the work allowance within universal reported through the new service, including notified credit in each of the next three financial years, allowing vacancies at local authority level, is available from the for inflation, on the annual real incomes of people in Universal Jobmatch management information tool each income decile and classed as (a) lone parents with https://jobsearch.direct.gov.uk/Reports/Reports.aspx children, (b) single people in work, (c) couple and selecting number of new jobs and the relevant households with children where one adult is in full-time geography and time period. work, (d) couple households with children where one Procurement adult is in full-time work and the other in part-time work, (e) couple households with children where both Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and adults are in full-time work, (f) couple households Pensions what proportion of his Department’s overall with two children where both adults are in part-time procurement spend for each of the last three financial work, (g) couple households without children where years was spent (a) in joint procurement exercises with one adult is in full-time work, (h) couple households other departments and (b) shared between different without children where one adult is in full-time work organisations within the same department group. and the other is in part-time work, (i) couple [182702] households without children where both adults are in Mike Penning: In the timeframe for this question, the full-time work and (j) couple households without Department has let many of its contracts via cross- children where both adults are in part-time work. Government arrangements put in place by the Crown [182342] Commercial Service (CCS), formerly the Government Procurement Service. Thus the need to enter into Esther McVey: Once fully rolled out, 3 million households collaborative procurement exercises with other Government gain on average £174 per month (in 2013-14 prices) Departments has been minimal. Going forward, the from universal credit after taking account of the work restructuring of the DWP’s commercial function where allowance freeze. Transitional protection will ensure some of our contract teams migrate directly to CCS will that there will be no cash losers under universal credit, mean this trend will continue and is likely to increase. providing their circumstances remain the same. Those categories that remain under DWP control may Impacts of the groups requested by income decile are be sufficiently distinct to this Department to make the not available due to sample size restrictions, however need for collaboration with other Departments less the following table shows the numbers of gainers by likely. family type and employment status. 587W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 588W

Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Million Work and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of Single Single Couples Couples no with no with savings in out-of-work benefits through the intervention children children children children Total of the Work Programme to date; [182581] (2) what estimate he has made of the number of One 0.4 0.5 0.2 0.8 22.0 person people in work who would be claiming out-of-work in work benefits without the intervention of the Work Programme. Out of 0.5 0.1 0.1 0.1 20.7 [182582] work Dual n/a n/a 1- 0.3 0.3 Esther McVey: We cannot estimate at this stage what earners the impact of the Work programme has been on benefit Total 20.9 20.7 0.3 1.2 23.0 receipt or employment. Analyses of previous labour 1 Sample size is too small. market programmes have relied on matching participants 2 Totals may not sum due to rounding. to non-participants within the same time period. This approach would be less effective for a programme which Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for rolled out nationally within a short period in June 2011. Work and Pensions how many software developers his The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has Department is currently seeking to recruit for its digital commissioned a consortium led by the Institute for service in order to build the universal credit end state Employment Studies (IES) to undertake an independent system and other software projects; and what contingency evaluation of the Work programme. Part of the consortium plan is in place in case it is unable to fill them all. is providing methodological advice and peer review to [182767] DWP analysts working on an in house impact assessment of the programme. Esther McVey: We are confident that the necessary skills and expertise will continue to be in place to deliver All reports from the evaluation will be published on the UC on-line service. It has always been the intention the DWP website at: that the Department would complete the work to develop https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/research-reports the UC digital service, building on the work of GDS. That’s why we have already strengthened in house expertise Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for including appointing former Vodafone director of global Work and Pensions how many referrals to the Work online Kevin Cunnington to lead the development of Programme there were from June 2011 to September our digital service and will be recruiting around 50 IT 2013; and what the job outcomes are for people classed specialists. This has always been in the plan for completing as (a) JSA 18 to 24, (b) JSA 25+ and (c) JSA early the digital service and therefore there are no additional entrant. [182583] costs for recruitment. Esther McVey: The information requested on the Work Programme number of Work Programme referrals and Job Outcomes for the period June 2011 to September 2013 can be Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for found in the following table: Work and Pensions what the cost to his Department of Work Programme referrals and Job Outcomes caseload the Work Programme has been from June 2011 to date. by payment type: June 2011 to September 2013 [182579] Work programme Work programme Esther McVey: The total paid to Work Programme Payment type referrals job outcomes Providers in the UK is £1,047 million from the start of the programme through to 30 September 2013, the Total 1,407,120 207,950 period covered by the December 2013 Statistical Release. JSA 18 to 24 255,560 50,190 The majority of payments to Work Programme Providers JSA 25 and over 597,390 94,230 are ’payment by results’ for job outcomes and job JSA Early entrants 271,640 51,490 sustainments. JSA Ex-Incapacity 21,640 1,760 benefit Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for ESA Volunteers 52,620 1,980 Work and Pensions what the cost of the Work Programme New ESA claimants 131,000 6,290 payments for (a) attachment, (b) job outcomes and ESA Ex-Incapacity 39,670 480 (c) job sustainment has been from June 2011 to date. benefit [182580] IB/IS Volunteers 2,720 410 JSA Prison leavers 34,880 1,110 Esther McVey: The majority of payments to Work Programme Providers are ’payment by results’ for job outcomes and job sustainments. HEALTH The total paid to Work Programme Providers in the UK from the start of the programme through to Ambulance Services: North West 30 September 2013, the period covered by the December 2013 Statistical Release, is £1,047 million, made up of: Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health £504 million attachment payments what recent discussions his Department has had with £242 million job outcome payments the North West Ambulance Service about the effective £301 million job sustainment payments. prioritisation of emergency calls. [182294] 589W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 590W

Jane Ellison: No recent discussions have been held The expenditure in 2009-10 to the organisations between the Department and the North West Ambulance MacFarlane Special Payments Trust, Skipton Fund Ltd, Service NHS Trust. the Eileen Trust and the MacFarlane Trust were for services provided by Wilson Solicitors. Clinical Commissioning Groups: Bolton Medical Records: Databases Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much funding per head of population has been Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health allocated to the Bolton Clinical Commissioning Group for what reason it was decided not to include an for 2013-14. [182297] opt-out form in the Better information means better care leaflet. [182335] Dr Poulter: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave him on 8 January 2014, Official Report, Dr Poulter: When developing plans for the ’Better column 264W. information means better care’ leaflet, NHS England thought that it was more appropriate for general General Practitioners: Retirement practitioners locally, as data controllers for their practice, to determine how best to manage the opt-out arrangements Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for for their patients. Health how many GPs have retired in each of the last 10 years. [182291] Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps he will take to ensure that patient data Dr Poulter: The requested information is not collected made available by the care.data programme is not used centrally. for private profit; [182339] (2) whether researchers using patient information Hospital Beds made available under the care.data programme will be able to pay an extra charge to receive that data with Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for patient-identifying information. [182371] Health what representations he has received from NHS England on bed shortages over the winter period. Dr Poulter: Any organisation or researchers can make [182627] an application to the Health and Social Care Information Centre for data and each application is considered Jane Ellison: The Department has had no representations individually. from NHS England on bed shortages over the winter An organisation or researcher making an application period. would only be allowed access to confidential information NHS England publishes figures on bed availability if they had a legal basis to do so including: and bed occupancy on a quarterly basis. where they had already obtained explicit patient consent; or The bed occupancy rate (for all beds open overnight) had been granted legal approval under Regulation 5 of the has remained relatively stable, rising in the winter months Health Service (Control of Patient Information) Regulations as we would expect, but remaining between 84 and 88% 2002 (commonly known as ‘section 251 support’); since 2000. or legally required to do so, for example, in a public health Legal Opinion emergency such as an epidemic. While the Health and Social Care Information Centre Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for charges a fee to cover its costs, it does not make profits Health which legal firms his Department instructed in from providing data to other organisations, nor does it (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; and what the cost to the subsidise any applicants to receive it. public purse was of those instructions. [182804] Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: The following table shows expenditure what his Department’s policy is on providing that the Department made in 2008-09 and 2009-10 to compensation to people whose medical confidentiality external organisations that have provided legal services has been breached by (a) the care.data programme and to the Department. (b) his Department’s other programmes. [182340]

£ Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Information Supplier name 2008-09 2009-10 Centre (HSCIC) has been established to be the secure environment in which personal confidential data is held Dac Beachcroft LLP 2,276 274 and analysed. The HSCIC is legally bound to maintain Freshfields Bruckhaus 12,304 — confidentially and to ensure confidential information is Deringer LLP held securely. This would include data collected as part Macfarlane Special — 32,735 of the care.data programme or other programmes managed Payments Trust by the HSCIC on behalf of the Department. Mills and Reeve LLP — 22,211 Skipton Fund Ltd — 2,462 Breach of confidentiality by the HSCIC would attract The Eileen Trust — 7,405 a fine of up to £500,000 from the Data Protection The Macfarlane Trust — 37,280 regulator, the Information Commissioner and leave it open for an individual to seek redress through the civil Total 14,580 102,367 courts. 591W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 592W

Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS: Management Consultants what the total estimated cost is of (a) the IT systems for the care.data programme and (b) the public Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for awareness campaign for care.data. [182341] Health pursuant to the answer of 6 January 2014, Official Report, column 148W, on NHS: management Dr Poulter: NHS England and the Health and Social consultants, where records and details of consultancy Care Information Centre are currently in the process of contracts are held. [182805] scoping the care.data programme and associated funding requirements. Dr Poulter: NHS London strategic health authority The cost of the NHS England leaflet drop to households (SHA) was abolished on 1 April 2013. Contracts which in England is approximately £1.2 million. continued after this date were transferred to the organisation which became responsible for performing the function Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in question. Records pertaining to non-clinical contracts what estimate he has made of the number of hours of which terminated before 1 April 2013 are likely to have GPs’ time that will be spent talking to patients about transferred to the ownership of the Department, along care.data in 2014; what the total cost of such time will with other corporate records of the SHA. be; and what potential effect such time spent will have The archived corporate records of NHS London on patient waiting time. [182351] exist as over a million hard copy and electronic records. These are currently stored in off-site paper archives and Dr Poulter: General practitioners (GPs), as data on archived server software respectively, which are currently controllers, have legal responsibilities under the Data held by NHS England on behalf of the Department. Protection Act (DPA) 1998 for ensuring that patients are aware of how their information is used and shared. Out-patients: Attendance This is not a new requirement and does not just relate to care.data. The leaflet is not just about care.data but all Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health uses of data for wider purposes. Making sure patients how many hospital appointments have been cancelled understand about how their information is used and the in the last five years. [182372] benefits it can bring is something we should all support. The Information Commissioners view is that cost of Jane Ellison: Between 2008-09 and 2012-13 50,900,745 compliance is an Information Governance overhead for hospital appointments have been cancelled. Of these a GP practice, in the same way that paying an accountant 25,434,899 were cancelled by patients and 25,465,846 is a tax/finance overhead. We are supporting GP practices cancelled by hospitals. in a number of ways for example, there is a patient The total number of attendances was 346,363,303, information line which patients can call if they have and cancelled appointments represent 14.7% of the questions, which will ease the burden on GP practices. total.

NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement Peters & Peters

Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 6 January 2014, Health pursuant to the answer of 6 January 2014, Official Report, column 146W, on NHS Institute for Official Report, column 149W, on Peters & Peters, in Innovation and Improvement, what the (a) name was which specific cases Peters & Peters were instructed in of each consultant used and (b) value was of each 2008, 2009 and 2010; and in respect of the ongoing case contract for consultancy for the NHS Institute for from 2005, how much Peters & Peters have been paid Innovation and Improvement in the most recent year for the case. [182806] for which data is obtainable. [182749] Dr Poulter: Information on dates of instruction and Dr Poulter: The NHS Institute for Innovation and claims is in the following tables. Improvement closed on 31 March 2013. NHS England Cases completed has advised that without incurring disproportionate Instructions cost, it cannot confirm whether this information is still began Claim available. However, it has been able to identify that total consultancy spend by the NHS Institute for Innovation Prior to HC02C03820—Secretary of State for Health and Others 2005 v. Norton Healthcare and Others and Improvement in 2012-13 was £223,968 and these HC03C00540—Secretary of State for Health and Others costs were predominantly for closing down the organisation. v. Norton Healthcare and Others The spend by category is shown in the following table. HC03C04404—Secretary of State for Health and Others v. Norton Healthcare and Others Category of spend Cost (£) HC04C02039—Secretary of State for Health and Others v. Generics UK Limited and Ranbaxy (UK) Limited Finance 38,250 HC04C02154—Secretary of State for Health and Others IT 19,193 v. Generics UK Limited and Ranbaxy UK Limited Strategy 71,489 HC04C02528—Secretary of State for Health and Others Legal 58,306 v. Generics UK Limited and Others Marketing 36,730 HC04C02785—Secretary of State for Health and Others Total 223,968 v. Norton Healthcare and Others 593W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 594W

Cases completed the use of pre-qualification questionnaire would incur a Instructions disproportionate cost for the Department. The information began Claim of value of contracts let and procurement route used is HC05C00102—Secretary of State for Health and Others currently recorded separately and cannot be provided v. Generics UK Limited without further detailed analysis. HC06C02033—Secretary of State for Health and Others The Department’s default policy position is to make v. Regent-GM Laboratories and Others full use of existing Government-wide contracts and HC09C01569—Secretary of State for Health and Others framework agreements for the procurement of common v. OPD Cartons Limited and Kent Pharmaceuticals (Holdings) goods and services. The Department eliminated the Limited routine use of pre-qualification questionnaires in 2012, in line with Government policy. 2010 HC11C00800—Secretary of State for Health v. Ken Anderson Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Cases ongoing what proportion of his Department’s overall procurement Instructions spend for each of the last three financial years was spent began Claim (a) in joint procurement exercises with other departments 2008 HC11C00319—Secretary of State for Health and Others and (b) shared between different organisations within v. Reckitt Benckiser Group PLC and Others the same department group. [182700] 2009 HC11C01423—Secretary of State for Health and Others v. Servier Laboratories Limited Dr Poulter: A search to identify the proportional spending on joint procurement exercises both with other In respect of the case which began prior to 2005, Departments, and across the Department and its non- costs billed by Peters & Peters were £5,029,287.53. departmental public bodies (NDPBs) would incur a Copies of claim forms and statements of case may be disproportionate cost for the Department. This level of requested from court records. In relation to cases in information is not recorded separately without further which Peters & Peters have acted for the Secretary of analysis of financial information across the Department State for Health, these can be requested from the Chancery and NDPBs. Division of the High Court of Justice in London. The Department and its NDPBs fully participate in a Procurement number of Government wide joint procurement exercises, which are led by the Crown Commercial Service (Government Procurement Services). This work supports Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the development of frameworks and contracts for use what weighting his Department’s procurement procedures by Government Departments relating to common goods give to (a) the location of a company and its workforce, and services. (b) the extent to which a company has a strong environmental record, (c) whether the company is a social enterprise and (d) other company history prior TREASURY performance. [182640] Bank Services: EU Nationals Dr Poulter: The Department undertakes all procurement activity in line with the principles of equal treatment, Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer transparency and non-discrimination as well as Government (1) what steps he proposes to take in light of the recent best practice and policy. vote on draft EU legislation on basic bank accounts; The Department does not set standard weightings in and if he will make a statement; [182205] its procurement procedures, for location of the company (2) what recent discussions he has had with the EU and its work force, the extent to which a company has a on basic bank accounts. [182194] strong environmental record and whether the company is a social enterprise. Weightings may be given for these Sajid Javid: The Government is committed to improving areas dependent upon the individual procurement and access to financial services for individuals. requirement. The European Commission published the proposed In line with Cabinet Office policy (Procurement Policy Payment Account Directive in May 2013. The Government Note 9/12), the Department will take into consideration is supportive of the aim of the proposed Directive. the performance of suppliers. Treasury Ministers and officials have and will continue to work closely with counterparts in Europe to ensure Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the right outcome for the UK consumer and industry. what proportion and value of his Department’s contracts There are no plans to make a further statement. have been let (a) under the restricted procedure, (b) by the open procedure, (c) via framework agreements and Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (d) via a tendering process involving the use of a what estimate he has made of the number of people pre-qualification questionnaire in each of the last three from EU countries outside of the UK who have opened years. [182691] basic bank accounts in the UK. [182203]

Dr Poulter: A search to identify the proportion and Sajid Javid: The Government has made no estimate value of the Department’s contracts that have been let of the number of people from EU countries outside of under restricted procedure, by the open procedure, via the UK who have opened a basic bank account in framework agreements and via a tendering process involving the UK. 595W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 596W

Child Tax Credit: Essex Secondment

Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many new applications for child tax credits were how many secondees from (a) trades unions and (b) made in (a) Essex and (b) Chelmsford constituency in the voluntary sector have worked in his Department the last 12 months. [182756] since 2010. [177748] Nicky Morgan: Between January 2013 and December 2013, the number of new tax credits claims that were Nicky Morgan: Since 2010 there have been (a) no eligible for child tax credits was an estimated 9,200 in secondees from the trades unions working in the Treasury the county of Essex and 500 in the Chelmsford constituency. and (b) no secondees from the voluntary sector working in the Treasury. Debts

Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Social Security Benefits what estimate he has made of current levels of household debt. [182109] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people in (a) Stafford and (b) the UK were Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the claiming each of the major in-work benefits in each of Cabinet Office. the last 10 years; and what the cost of such benefits was The information requested falls within the responsibility to the Exchequer. [180128] of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Nicky Morgan: The information is as follows: Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2014: HMRC-tax credits As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question The finalised annual award child and working tax asking, what estimate has been made of current levels of household credits statistics for 2011-12 are available here: debt. (182109) http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/fin-main-stats/cwtc- The office for National Statistics only publishes details of the awards.xls combined financial liabilities of households and non-profit institutions serving households (NPISH), rather than households alone. The Table 1.1 of this publication provides a breakdown of most recent analyses can be found in table A64 of the United families and tax credit entitlement at the UK level, split Kingdom Economic Accounts (UKEA) 2013 Q3, published on by family structure and working status, for the latest 20 December 2013. The UKEA is available on the National year 2011-12 back to 2003-04, which was the first year Statistics web site at: of the current tax credit system. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/naa1-rd/united-kingdom- This table shows the amount of working tax credit economic-accounts/q3-2013/index.html entitlement linked to in-work families. A breakdown of This shows that, for households and NPISH combined, the the Exchequer cost is not available. total financial liabilities in 2013 Q3 were £1549.5 billion. The finalised annual award child and working tax Mortgages credits statistics for 2011-12 split by geography are available here: John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/fin-geog-stats/geo- what assessment he has made of the practice of mortgage analyses.xls lenders declining mortgage applications from people Table 2 of this publication provides a breakdown of who in the previous six years had taken out a payday families and average annual tax credit entitlement at the loan. [182434] local authority level, including Stafford. A breakdown of working tax credit and child tax credit entitlement is Sajid Javid: In making mortgage lending decisions, not available. Older geographic publications are available lenders must follow the appropriate regulatory and here: legislative requirements. Beyond this, decisions about who they lend to and on what terms are a commercial http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20121106034103/ matter, including how they use information about existing http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/final- award-geog.htm or previous credit commitments. Credit risk models and approaches vary between DWP-benefits lenders, so while a history of payday loans may prevent The information for Great Britain is in the following a borrower taking out a loan with one lender, others table. The information relating to Northern Ireland is a may take a different approach. matter for the Northern Ireland Office.

Expenditure on those in work by benefit, £ million, nominal terms 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Great Britain

Housing benefit -----1,667.4 2,362.4 3,215.3 3,908.4 4,410.1

Council tax benefit -----210.5 311.5 437.4 510.9 564.4 597W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 598W

Expenditure on those in work by benefit, £ million, nominal terms 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Statutory 1,035.0 1,291.2 1,183.7 1,317.6 1,629.7 1,954.0 2,025.6 2,141.2 2,199.7 2,303.5 maternity pay Statutory sick pay 40.1 43.0 41.0 45.0 43.5 46.2 46.8 44.6 47.0 49.9

Stafford Housing benefit -----0.81.42.53.03.8 Council tax benefit -----0.10.20.50.50.7

Housing and council tax benefits are available to (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on those who are in-work or out of work. The figures reductions of the (a) lifetime allowance and (b) provided here are for in-work only. annual allowance for pension contributions on the Expenditure on those in work for housing benefit and overall level of pension saving. [182594] council tax benefit is not available prior to 2008-09 and information is not available at local authority level for Mr Gauke: Tax relief on pension contributions is one statutory maternity pay or statutory sick pay. of the primary means by which the Government encourages The information for housing benefit and council tax people to save for their retirement. In 2011-12 an estimated benefit excludes any passported recipients and is based £34.9 billion of tax relief was provided on contributions on a combination of quarterly statistical data and local to approved pensions schemes: authority subsidy returns, as outturn expenditure data http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/pension-stats/pen6.pdf is not available at this level. For 2008-09, November Tax relief on income and capital gains from ISAs 2008 data has been used as this is the most representative is forecast to be £2.85 billion in 2013-14 as shown in dataset available during this period. Table 1.5: The information for statutory maternity pay and http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/expenditures/table1-5.pdf statutory sick pay is based on provisional employer returns to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) The effectiveness of these reliefs is kept under ongoing and is expenditure funded by the Department for Work review as part of the normal policy process. and Pensions, some additional expenditure will be funded The reductions in the lifetime allowance and the by the employer. These estimates may vary from the annual allowance affect only the wealthiest pension estimates published by the Government Actuary’s savers; 99% of pension savers make annual contributions Department (GAD) in their annual uprating report. worth less than the annual allowance of £40,000, while Figures are consistent with autumn 2013 expenditure 98% of those approaching retirement have pension pots forecasts published at: valued at less than the lifetime allowance of £1,250,000. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit- The Tax information and Impact Note produced for expenditure-and-caseload-tables-2013 Budget 2013 estimated that 140,000 individuals would Housing benefit case load data by local authority be affected by the restriction of the annual allowance to 2008 to 2013 can be found at: £40,000. Furthermore, 360,000 people were expected to https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk be affected by the new lower lifetime allowance of £1,250,000. Some of these individuals are expected to Guidance on how to extract the information required reduce their pension contributions, but the vast majority can be found at: of pension savers will be unaffected. Further details https://sw.stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/webapi/online-help/Stat- may also be found in this document: Xplore_User_Guide.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2013/tiin-1046.pdf Housing benefit and council tax benefit case load data from 2010 to February 2013 can be found at: Taxation https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- for-work-pensions/about/statistics Housing benefit and council tax benefit case load Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer data prior to 2010 can be found at: what estimate HM Revenue and Customs has made of http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130107093842/ the number of limited companies trading that were http:/statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ neither VAT-registered nor had a PAYE scheme in each index.php?page=hbctb_arc year from 2007-08 to 2011-12; and if he will make a For Northern Ireland statistics go to: statement. [182350] http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/index/stats_and_research/ benefit_publications.htm Mr Gauke: The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Tax Allowances Taxation: Bingo Mr Hoban: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of tax relief on (a) pension contributions on the overall level Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of contributions and (b) income and capital gains if she will bring forward legislative proposals to decrease from ISAs on the overall level of non-pension savings; the tax on bingo to bring it in line with taxation rates [182593] applying to other gambling industries. [183036] 599W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 600W

Mr Gauke: The Government keeps all taxes, including Persons in England and Wales wishing to deposit a will bingo duty, under review. for safekeeping may do so with the Probate Service on payment of the appropriate fee (currently £20). Various Taxation: Electronic Commerce private sector bodies, including many legal practitioners, also offer safekeeping services. Mr Spellar: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to ensure that Churches: Liability online purchases are taxed at the appropriate rate. [181477] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 21 November 2013, Mr Gauke: VAT on goods is generally payable at the Official Report, columns 949-50W, on chancel liability, rate of the location of the customer, and therefore what recent assessment he has made of the effects of applies equally to goods bought from UK companies chancel liability. [182721] and goods bought from abroad, and to goods bought from high street retailers and those bought online. Mr Vara: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of Under current EU rules supplies of digital or electronic State for Justice, my right hon. the Member for Epsom services to non-business consumers are currently taxed and Ewell (Chris Grayling), is keeping the issues relating where the supplier belongs. This means that if a company to chancel repair liability under review but has not locates in a low VAT jurisdiction they will account for made an assessment of its effect recently. VAT at the rate in that country. Member states agreed to change the taxation of intra-EU business-to-consumer (B2C) supplies of telecommunications, broadcasting and e-services with effect from January 2015. From that BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS date VAT on these services will be payable in the member Consumers: Protection state in which the customer is located rather than where the supplier is located. Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for This will prevent businesses from moving their operations Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward to other member states to take advantage of lower VAT legislative proposals to extend credit protection as rates and will protect £5 billion in revenue each year. found in section 54 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 UK Power Networks to goods bought through a hire purchase agreement which have not been received. [181568]

Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of whether HM Revenue and Customs is investigating the the Treasury. off-shoring to the Cayman Islands of profits by UK Power Networks. [182515] Section 54 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 makes provision in respect of conduct of business regulations. Mr Gauke: HMRC cannot disclose to me information It provides that, without prejudice to the generality of about an identifiable taxpayer. HMRC has a statutory section 26 of that Act, regulations under that section duty to maintain taxpayer confidentiality and may not may include provisions further regulating the seeking of disclose information unless the limited and controlled business by a person to whom the regulations apply circumstances set out in the statute creating HMRC who carries on a consumer credit business or a consumer apply. hire business. HMRC ensures all taxpayers pay the right tax due Sections 26 and 54 are revoked, with effect from 1 under UK law. HMRC applies the UK tax rules, which April 2014, by the Financial Services and Markets Act are based on a commonly agreed set of international 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) (No.2) Order standards, to determine the amount of a multinational’s 2013 along with various other provisions of the Consumer profits that are taxed here. HMRC’s experienced tax Credit Act as part of the transfer of the regulation of professionals have in-depth knowledge of multinationals’ consumer credit from the Office of Fair Trading to the business models and appetite for risk in tax planning. Financial Conduct Authority (FCA). From that date, the legislative framework governing consumer credit will be constituted by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and FCA JUSTICE rules made under that Act. The Treasury has no plans to bring forward further legislative proposals. Administration of Justice Act 1982 Easter Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans he has to bring into effect sections Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for 23-25 of the Administration of Justice Act 1982. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will now bring [182564] into force the provisions contained in the Easter Act 1928. [182565] Mr Vara: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Jenny Willott: The Secretary of State for Business, Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), has no plans to Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member bring sections 23-25 of the Administration of Justice for Twickenham (Vince Cable), does not intend to bring Act 1982 (registration of wills) into force at present. the Easter Act 1928 into force in the near future. The 601W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 602W

Easter Act 1928 would set the date for Easter to fall on via the Government Procurement Service and which are a Sunday between 9 and 15 April each year. The Easter open to all Government Departments. BIS also strongly Act 1928 remains on the Statute Book, but has not been encourages Partner Organisations to make use of cross brought into force. To do so would require an Order in Government Procurement frameworks. Council, with the approval of both Houses of Parliament. The Act also requires that, before the Order is made, “regard shall be had to any opinion officially expressed Regulation by any Church or other Christian Body.” There is no indication that the Churches are keen to move to a date for Easter fixed in accordance with the Easter Act 1928. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which Government Lord Heseltine Review Departments have not yet met their commitments to reduce overall regulation under the one-in, two-out principle. [182277] Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress his Department Michael Fallon: Departments are committed to delivering has made in implementing the recommendations accepted one-in, two-out by the end of the Parliament, based on in its response to the Heseltine Review, No Stone Unturned, regulation and deregulation brought in since January published in March 2013. [182320] 2013. The latest information on Departments’ performance to date can be found in the Seventh Statement for New Michael Fallon: The Government published its response Regulation: to “No Stone Unturned” by my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Heseltine in March 2013. That response https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/266133/bis-13-p96b-seventh-statement- accepted in full or in part 81 out of Lord Heseltine’s 89 of-new-regulation.pdf recommendations. The Government continues to take forward these recommendations to ensure that we rise to the challenge TNT to significantly advance the process of decentralisation, unleash the potential of local economies, strengthen partnerships with industry and foster economic growth. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make an assessment of Central to the Government’s response was the creation the potential effects of the agreement between PostNL of the Local Growth Fund (LGF). The LGF amounts and LDC to extend TNT’s end-to-end delivery service to £2 billion in 2015/16 and this includes funding from on Royal Mail. [182741] transport, skills and housing. There is an ongoing commitment that the LGF will be at least £2 billion per year for the life of the next Parliament. Jenny Willott: Under the Postal Services Act 2011, As set out in the spending round, the LGF will bring regulatory responsibility for the postal services sector the resources under the strategic influence of local was transferred from Postcomm to Ofcom as an economic partnerships (LEPs) to at least £20 billion in independent regulator with the primary duty of securing the years to 2021. The Government will determine the the universal postal service in the United Kingdom. future composition of the LGF at the next spending It is Ofcom’s responsibility to monitor any impacts review. of market competition on the provision of the universal Funds will be allocated from the LGF as part of service in the UK. Parliament has given Ofcom the growth deals, which are being negotiated with every powers to intervene if the provision of the universal LEP. As part of this, LEPs were asked to develop multi service is ever at serious risk from the effects of market year strategic economic plans for their area. The 39 competition. LEPs shared their first drafts with Government in December Ofcom has an effective and ongoing monitoring regime 2013. LEPs have been given extra resource (up to £250,000 to track the financial sustainability of the universal per LEP) to develop these strategies. BIS officials are postal service. In March 2013 Ofcom published guidance working with LEPs on the development of the plans. on its approach to assessing the impact of end-to-end competition in the postal sector. In its November 2013 Procurement annual monitoring report Ofcom concluded that it would not be necessary to impose any additional regulatory conditions on end-to-end operators to secure the ongoing Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of a universal postal service at this point in Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of his time. Department’s overall procurement spend for each of the last three financial years was spent (a) in joint If Ofcom’s ongoing monitoring regime does not prompt procurement exercises with other departments and (b) the need for any earlier assessment, it will carry out a shared between different organisations within the same full review of the impact of market competition towards department group. [182698] the end of 2015 as a matter of course. This will ensure that the regulator has made a detailed assessment of the Jenny Willott: The Department for Business, Innovation actual and potential impact of emerging end-to-end and Skills (BIS) does not record this information so competition based on a better understanding of how therefore the answer cannot be provided without incurring the postal market is developing. More information about disproportionate cost. However, BIS does make use of Ofcom’s regulatory regime can be found on its website cross Government framework agreements that are procured www.ofcom.org.uk 603W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 604W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Expenditure on flood and coastal erosion risk management during the four-year period from 2007-08 Flood Control to 2010-11 totalled £2.371 billion. Expenditure already incurred, and planned, during the current spending Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for review period (2011-12 to 2014-15) totals £2.341 billion. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Funding from external sources spent during the four-year answer of 15 July 2013, Official Report, columns 478-9W, period from 2007-08 to 2010-11 totalled £13 million. on flood control, and his oral answer to the hon. For the current spending review period, funding from Member for York Central of 9 January 2014, for what external contributions under our new Partnership Funding reasons the earlier answer shows that his Department’s approach are expected to total up to £148 million. spending on flood protection in England fell from £646 Taken together, more is therefore being spent on million in 2010-11 to £533 million in 2013-14 when his flood risk management than ever before. oral answer on his Department’s spending on flood protection states that he is providing more money for Flood Control: Oxford this purpose than any previous Government in the current spending review; how the £2.3 billion figure in his oral answer relates to the £646 million and £533 Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for million figures in the answer of 15 July 2013; how the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will fund a figure of £2.3 billion was calculated; over what period western conveyance channel aimed at cutting flooding the £2.3 billion will be spent; and what the evidential risk in Oxford. [182568] basis is for the statement that the current Government is providing more than any previous Government on flood Dan Rogerson: Decisions on funding for flood protection. [182589] management projects are made by the Environment Agency and are based on criteria agreed with DEFRA. Dan Rogerson [holding answer 14 January 2014]: I understand that no business case for this scheme has Together with external contributions under this yet been produced. If, and when, a viable business case Government’s Partnership Funding approach, more is can be made, it will be considered alongside other being spent on flood and coastal erosion risk management schemes under the normal criteria. during the current spending review period (2011-12 to 2014-15) than in the previous four years (2007-08 to Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11). Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment The supporting information for this calculation follows. he has made of the effect of a western conveyance I would also like to take this opportunity to correct channel on flood prevention in Oxford. [182569] the record. Floods funding is complex, with a number of different income streams including Government funding, Dan Rogerson: The Environment Agency is working local levies, and other contributions towards schemes. with Oxford City Council to assess the effect of a Further analysis has identified some minor inconsistencies western conveyance channel on flood prevention together in the figures previously provided on historic Government with other possible options for reducing flooding in spending on flood risk management, including in the Oxford. written answer referred to by the hon. Member. I regret that this was not presented in a consistent way, something Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for I have now rectified. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is taking to reduce flood risk in Oxford. [182570] Government expenditure on flood risk management The following figures set out DEFRA expenditure on Dan Rogerson: The Environment Agency has recently flood risk management, including through grant in aid completed the first phase of the Oxford Flood Risk provided to the Environment Agency for this purpose. Management Strategy which seeks to reduce flood risk They exclude funding through local levies or other to 3,600 homes and businesses. This includes £2.5million income. of investment in de-silting channels, increasing the capacity of structures and providing temporary defences. The Total (£ million) Environment Agency is working with Oxford City Council, 2007-08 500 Oxford Flood Alliance and Oxfordshire Local Enterprise 2008-09 568 Partnership to assess technical solutions and funding options for reducing flooding in Oxford. 2009-10 633 2010-11 670 2011-12 573 Floods: Housing 2012-13 576 Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what weight is Future budgets for flood and coastal erosion risk management given to flood risks by the Environment Agency when The following figures set out current budgets, calculated responding to consultations on planning applications on the same basis. for housing. [182537]

Total (£ million) Dan Rogerson: The Environment Agency is a statutory 2013-14 577 consultee for planning applications. However, it is the 2014-15 615 role of the Local Planning Authority to balance flood risk against other considerations. 605W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 606W

Gangmasters Licensing Authority Framework Directive in England; and if he will make a statement. [182489] Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Rogerson: Various assessments have been made Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the of the costs of implementing the Water Framework answer of 6 January 2014, Official Report, column Directive (WFD) in England and Wales. One of the 157W, on Gangmasters Licensing Authority, what the most recent was to inform the first River Basin Management number and value of compensation payments through Plans, which set objectives and programmes of measures the imposition of compensation orders was in (a) for the period 2009-15. This estimated a total cost of 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. [182753] £300 million arising from actions undertaken in that first cycle alone. Benefits have also been assessed. George Eustice: The Gangmasters Licensing Authority The most recent assessment by Government of the full secured no compensation payments through the imposition costs of WFD implementation was made after adoption of compensation orders during the three financial years of the Directive. For England and Wales an annual cost 2010-13. of £900 million was estimated. The Environment Agency is now updating this analysis of WFD costs as part of Water: EU Law the review of River Basin Management Plans for 2015-21. Draft Plans will be subject to a six-month consultation later this year. When Ministers agree the final plans, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for they will take into account the balance of costs and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment benefits and the appropriate phasing of improvements he has made of the cost of implementing the Water over this period (to 2021) and beyond to 2027.

11MC Ministerial Corrections15 JANUARY 2014 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend is mistaken in his Ministerial Correction analysis of the EDA. The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow Wednesday 15 January 2014 (Mr Dunne), who has responsibility for defence procurement, took a very hard line and successfully won a flat-cash settlement for the EDA this year. We held out and it required unanimity for that budget to be FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE agreed. It is simply not the case that we can be overridden by a QMV vote. European Council [Official Report, 7 January 2014, Vol. 573, c. 182.] The following is an extract from exchanges on the Letter of correction from David Lidington: Urgent Question on the December European Council on 7 January 2014. An error has been identified in the response given on 7 January 2013. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): The correct response should have been: If EU defence is really just harmless intergovernmentalism, why do we have directives that have the force of law in Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend is mistaken in his the field of defence? Why do these conclusions include analysis of the EDA. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary invitation after invitation for the Commission, which is of State and Minister for International Security Strategy, not an intergovernmental institution, to lead on initiatives? my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire Why are we still in the European Defence Agency, (Dr Murrison), who has responsibility for defence which contains expensive provision for qualified majority procurement, took a very hard line and successfully voting on defence? Is not my right hon. Friend becoming won a flat-cash settlement for the EDA this year. We somewhat blind to the fact that we are moving towards held out and it required unanimity for that budget to be a federal defence policy and a European army? He is in agreed. It is simply not the case that we can be overridden denial. by a QMV vote.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 833 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Accident and Emergency Doctors...... 840 Security...... 834 Cost of Living...... 833 Welfare Reform...... 837 Flags/Parades/Protests/Dealing with the Past (Public Funding) ...... 841 Haass Talks...... 842 PRIME MINISTER ...... 842 Public Order...... 839 Engagements...... 842 WRITTEN STATEMENT

Wednesday 15 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 27WS Environment Council...... 27WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 563W EDUCATION...... 579W Crown Prosecution Service...... 563W Children: Day Care ...... 579W Fraud ...... 564W Procurement...... 579W Schools: Defibrillators ...... 580W Secondary Education: Hartlepool...... 580W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 600W Consumers: Protection...... 600W Easter...... 600W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 565W Lord Heseltine Review ...... 601W Energy: Meters...... 565W Procurement...... 601W Energy: Prices ...... 565W Regulation ...... 602W Hinkley Point C Power Station ...... 566W TNT...... 602W Nuclear Power Stations: Emergencies ...... 566W Procurement...... 567W Renewable Energy...... 567W CABINET OFFICE...... 581W Supply Estimates...... 568W Armed Forces Covenant ...... 581W Industry ...... 582W Unemployment: Ethnic Groups ...... 581W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 603W Flood Control...... 603W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 557W Flood Control: Oxford...... 604W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 557W Floods: Housing ...... 604W Local Plans ...... 557W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 605W Social Rented Housing: Essex ...... 558W Water: EU Law ...... 605W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 572W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 571W Battle of Waterloo: Anniversaries ...... 572W Colombia ...... 571W Football ...... 573W Ecuador ...... 571W Procurement...... 573W European Citizen Action Services...... 572W

DEFENCE...... 574W HEALTH...... 588W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 574W Ambulance Services: North West...... 588W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 575W Clinical Commissioning Groups: Bolton...... 589W Army: North West ...... 575W General Practitioners: Retirement...... 589W Army: Transport ...... 575W Hospital Beds...... 589W Hercules Aircraft ...... 575W Legal Opinion...... 589W Military Aircraft ...... 576W Medical Records: Databases ...... 590W Military Bases: North West...... 576W NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement .... 591W Peacekeeping Operations ...... 576W NHS: Management Consultants ...... 592W Procurement...... 577W Out-patients: Attendance...... 592W Territorial Army ...... 578W Peters & Peters ...... 592W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 578W Procurement...... 593W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT...... 558W TRANSPORT ...... 553W Alcoholic Drinks: Sales...... 558W Dual Carriageways...... 553W Animal Experiments ...... 558W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 553W Bovine Tuberculosis: South West ...... 559W Northern Rail ...... 556W Catalytic Converters: Theft ...... 559W Procurement...... 556W Domestic Violence ...... 560W Railways: Cumbria...... 557W G4S...... 560W Railways: Weather...... 557W Prescription Drugs: Misuse...... 560W Procurement...... 560W TREASURY ...... 594W Serco ...... 561W Bank Services: EU Nationals ...... 594W Child Tax Credit: Essex...... 595W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 562W Debts ...... 595W Parliament: Educational Visits...... 562W Mortgages...... 595W Pay...... 563W Secondment ...... 596W Social Security Benefits...... 596W Tax Allowances...... 597W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 569W Taxation...... 598W Developing Countries: Equality...... 569W Taxation: Bingo ...... 598W Procurement...... 571W Taxation: Electronic Commerce ...... 599W UK Power Networks...... 599W JUSTICE...... 599W Administration of Justice Act 1982...... 599W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 583W Churches: Liability...... 600W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 583W Jobcentre Plus: Torbay ...... 584W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 561W Procurement...... 585W Parades Commission...... 561W Universal Credit...... 586W Security...... 561W Work Programme...... 587W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 15 January 2014

Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 11MC European Council...... 11MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 22 January 2014

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 15 January 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 833] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

United Kingdom Register of Places [Col. 854] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Andrew Rosindell)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [17th allotted day] Banking [Col. 857] Motion—(Chris Leslie)—on a Division, negatived National Minimum Wage [Col. 911] Motion—(Rachel Reeves)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Vince Cable)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Legal Aid and Advice [Col. 966] Motion—(Karen Bradley): Division deferred till Wednesday 22 January

Acute Hospital Wards (Staffing) [Col. 967] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region of Iraq [Col. 275WH] Farmland Bird Populations [Col. 297WH] TfL (Funding and Station Staffing) [Col. 305WH] Manorial Rights (England and Wales) [Col. 329WH] Police and Crime Commissioners and ACPO [Col. 337WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statement [Col. 27WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 553W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 11MC]