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How Artists Perceive and React to the World Around Them,” 1985

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How Artists Perceive and React to the World Around Them,” 1985 Guggenheim Museum Archives Reel-to-Reel collection “How Artists Perceive and React to the World around Them,” 1985 PART 1 GIL EDILSON Good evening, ladies and gentleman, and welcome to the first of four panel discussions of the annual Art Dealers Association of America panels at the Guggenheim Museum. My name is Gil Edelson, and I am the administrative vice president of the association, which is comprised of the nation’s leading dealers in — in works of art, works of the fine arts. The association, or ADAA, or (pronounces phonetically) ADAA, is, as they say, “small but choice.” There are now approximately 110 members around the country, and membership is selective. It’s by invitation of the board of directors. The requirements are that a dealer be in business for at least five years and have an established reputation for honesty, integrity, a high degree of professionalism, and a deep knowledge of the field in which he or she specializes. We also look at the dealer’s contribution to the community in terms of exhibitions and catalogues, and so forth. [01:00] We’re grateful to the Guggenheim Museum for having us, and especially grateful to Tom Messer, one of our outstanding museum directors. We’re grateful not only for his interest in hospitality, but also for what his vision and ability have given to New York, a great museum with stimulating and important exhibitions, and an outstanding museum program. New York and the New York art community are very fortunate, indeed, to have him. Our gratitude also to Mimi Poser and her capable staff at the museum, who are a pleasure to work with. And finally, special thanks to Susan Wasserstein of the ADAA staff, who I think more than any other single person is responsible for the success of these series. Our panel tonight is an artist panel devoted to how artists perceive and react to the world around them. We’re fortunate, indeed, to have as our moderator a distinguished art historian and critic, Irving [02:00] Sandler. Irving has been an important member of the art community since the days of abstract expressionism. His sympathy and understanding of artists and their work is well-known through his writing — his writings — which include books such as The Triumph of American Painting, The New York School, and his recent monograph on Al Held, among other books and articles which are really too numerous to mention. He’s joined tonight by four outstanding artists, Larry Rivers, Philip Pearlstein, Eric Fischl, and Jenny Holzer, who you all know through their works. Tonight we will see something more of them. Now, ladies and gentlemen, Irving Sandler. (applause) IRVING SANDLER I hope I have sound. Our topic tonight is “Two Generations: An Artist’s Dialogue” and the assumption is that our panels — panelists will discuss the art and the art scene [03:00] of the fifties when two of them emerged, and or versus the art and the art scene of the seventies, when the other two emerged. And perhaps they will, but we must remember that our panelists are not art critics, art historians, or art sociologists, but artists, and they will discuss the issues as artists. This will be an artist dialogue, as the title says it will. One artist on the panel asked me to elaborate the issues, and after I did, he asked, “What makes them interesting today?” And I mulled that over a little while, and my answer was, “You do. The fact of your contribution as an artist does,” and this goes for our other panelists as well. There are issues which we might Transcript © 2018 The Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation (SRGF). All rights reserved. Page 1 of 34 Guggenheim Museum Archives Reel-to-Reel collection “How Artists Perceive and React to the World around Them,” 1985 discuss having to do with the relations of the artists on this panel, and [04:00] artists generally, with the art world in which they find themselves. And by art world, I mean those who establish a consensus at any moment as to what is a significance or quality — that is, certain artists, dealers, collectors, art editors, critics, historians, museum trustees, directors, curators — those we mean when we say “art professionals.” And then there is the world beyond the art world, and there is the issue of how the situation has changed during the past three decades. But these are the issues that interest me, and I think, and hope, they do interest the other panelists and you. But first of all, I should like to call upon each of the panelists to introduce the topic as he or she sees it. We’ll begin with Larry Rivers, and then we’ll have Philip Pearlstein, Jenny Holzer, and [05:00] Eric Fischl. Larry? LARRY RIVERS [I have to start?]. IRVING SANDLER Well, probably after you. LARRY RIVERS I chose to stand up to speak to you. And I’m supposed to now walk back a few feet here (laughter) but I’m also supposed to have that — the dial for putting paintings on the screen? Then I’ve reached it. Don’t let these amount of [papers?] fool you and depress you into thinking I’m really going to say a lot. I don’t need this. (laughter) Am I heard by everybody? (audience responds affirmatively) How would anybody know to answer that question if they didn’t hear me? (laughter) Actually, as a matter of fact. Okay. I’ll just start. And I’ve got probably a little bit of confused signals about what the evening was going to be about and the role I was going to play [06:00] in this evening, but finally I suppose I pulled out some old — chestnuts won’t work, but it’s the only thing I can think of — from the fire. And I thought that for myself, the evening is called “Then and Now.” I’m supposed to give some representation of what it was like for younger artists in the fifties, and supposedly, if I speak for myself, I’ll be telling you something about some other artists. Well, it’s true or not true. The evening here, called “Then and Now,” probably the evening here would have been downtown. I mean, if you want to start immediately talking about the fifties, this probably wouldn’t have happened. I don’t know who was speaking in museums at that time to crowds like this with a real, [07:00] serious respect and intention. But for myself, whatever happened in this kind of [guise?] about subjects and, you know, dissecting them and tried to find out what’s going on, they would’ve taken place downtown and probably would have — the evening would have been called “The Past and the Present, and how they Interact.” Well, let’s see. In the fifties, in art, the nostalgic, the soft, the sentimental were muddleheaded mixtures of middle-class — and I suppose we could even use the word “bourgeois” — bourgeois reality. The pressure to be modern, and to be a member of the avant-garde was formidable. It was a clearly-marked path to visual glory and gold. The avant-garde has been with us, I guess, since the French Revolution. I’ll only read a few of these notes. I’m going to switch in a moment. But at any rate, I just want to give a little of this. [08:00] And the first ones to use that term were social philosophers, to express the notion that a new order in France, at that moment, was up for grabs. In other words, it had to do with the new. Transcript © 2018 The Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation (SRGF). All rights reserved. Page 2 of 34 Guggenheim Museum Archives Reel-to-Reel collection “How Artists Perceive and React to the World around Them,” 1985 In art, I guess the avant-garde has to do with — or did have to do with — freshness, a representation of some new reality in contrast to some idea of an eternal reality, [contained?] in traditional art. If old mama was attractive trying on old hats, Dada, or little younger, was sticking his tongue out, shaking his ass, and telling his painting was for the dustbin of history. Duchamp, with only the mildly talented Nude Descending a Staircase, became a big Dada. I mean, he goes down in history because he quit painting. (laughter) And for that gesture of quitting, [09:00] but for that gesture to have some substance, I was told just the last few days — of course, I was talking about it with de Kooning — that the person who quits has to be — have some idea of being a genius. In other words, someone painting a Nude Descending the Staircase and quitting isn’t doing anything. What do you mean? Anyway, the avant-garde produced fur cups and toilet seats. But for this evening, the “then” in the “Then and Now” means the fifties. So I’ll just give you a little bit of the irritation that I feel for that particular time. And I thought I would tell a — there were paintings — there was an English painter called Morris who sort of spread a canvas on the floor about 20 to 30 feet, and he painted his [10:00] motorcycle wheels a variety of colors, started the engine, and then he drove over this canvas, and he showed it as a painting. These things were then told to us, you know, about the latest, newest thing of some weird mixture of some kind of activity or theatrics that actually was able to produce art.
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