Australians at War Film Archive

Elley Mundraby - Transcript of interview

Date of interview: 17th August 2004

http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/2344

Tape 1

00:42 can, Elley.

Okey dokey. My name’s Elley Mundraby, born and bred here in Cairns. Went to school in the Cairns

01:00 area, at Trinity Bay High School. And after schooling had a first, my first job as a store man driver. I got put off there so in the end I started doing fruit picking, seasonal fruit picking, went all the way down to Victoria. While I was down there

01:30 I enjoyed the… I’ve always had a passion for travelling and all that, so on the way back up to Queensland enlisted in the… in Wollongong. They said I couldn’t join up there until I got to Brisbane, ‘course I went out to the Burdekin area to fruit pick out there. After there I went to Brisbane, got accepted, that was in 1980.

02:00 Got accepted into the services but I still had to wait around for my enrolled date, went and done me medical etcetera. While waiting around, time went by, I never heard anything from the defence force. So then when I had an inclination, when I was going in, came back up to Cairns, the place that I was retrenched from offered me a job straight away

02:30 there, so basically jumped off the train, started work there the same day. Done that for about four months, still haven’t heard from the defence force. A friend of mine who was working there, his father was involved with the patrol boats as a naval architect, he made a few phone calls, found out that they had me as going in, in ‘80 but for an

03:00 oversight. They eventually turned around and said, “Yeah, okay.” So got in, what was it, ‘81. ‘81 that’s when I joined up to the, actually went into the services, the military, navy. So, over that period of time from ‘81, stayed in for the twenty odd years, got out in

03:30 2001, I think it was, April Fool’s Day. So this is where I am today.

Can you give us a short summary of your time in the navy in terms of where you served?

Ah yes. Went down to Cerberus, Western Port Bay. After basic training then I, from basic training went into category training which was in the marine technical hull

04:00 category, which was the engineering world. From the engine, went there, done I think round about, I think eight to nine months training. And my first posting was to HMAS Melbourne, the aircraft carrier. Stayed on that till the aircraft carrier decommissioned then I went into contingent reserve, which was to,

04:30 basically pulling the Melbourne apart which was... After the Melbourne had left from there, took it across to the dolphins near Taronga Park Zoo. I was at HMAS Kuttabul for a while, land base, but I was working in the, at that time that was FIMA, fleet industrial maintenance activity,

05:00 in the engineering side of things. Then my next first major sea posting was the Stalwart, HMAS Stalwart which was the destroyer tender. From the Stalwart I stayed on there for two to three years, I’m not too sure. Then I went back to FIMA, I went to fleet headquarters as, up there

05:30 as a technical office writer, up at fleet headquarters. I was working for commander engineering for, I think it was in ‘86, then I left ‘86 I went to, came to Cairns, I was on the Fremantle class patrol boat the [HMAS] Ipswich. Spent some time on Ipswich. After Ipswich, ‘80...

06:00 then I went to, I think it was the 80’s, I went down to Nirimba, HMAS Nirimba which is their engineering training establishment to do phase two of my training in the engineering world. After that I left there came back up to Cairns and I was on, went to [HMAS] Waterhen in North Sydney at FIMA there, working 06:30 there in the engineering workshop. Left FIMA, then I went to, where was it, no sorry I think it was back to Nirimba, the dummy training, the phase two there. After I left there then I went, got posted to the HMAS Gladstone back in Cairns on a patrol boat. Spent a period of time up here.

07:00 From here, then I went back down to Sydney to University of Sydney, the Ultimo TAFE, done some training, more technical training there. Left from there came back up to the [HMAS] Gladstone. From the Gladstone I went to the Ipswich, another patrol boat, for a short period of time. From the Ipswich back to the Gladstone.

07:30 The Gladstone, was on the Gladstone till ‘96 and from there I went back down to Cerberus and finished off the, from ‘96 to 2001 at Cerberus in Victoria.

Wow that’s quite a career.

Oh it’s, nah.

And what about family life?

Family life, the entire time I was in the services, I never, I wasn’t married,

08:00 never got married because at that time it was a career to me and my career came first. So, and it was up till, I’ve now been happily married for, I think about twenty odd months, so. I have, at time, prior to my joining up, I had an older brother who was in the services, in the navy. Two years after I

08:30 joined up, the young, my younger brother joined up after me, so pretty service career orientated background.

And no children?

No children. No.

Okay. And since you left the navy work-wise, what’ve you been doing?

Since I left the navy work-wise I, my first initial job was as a supervisor on two car-washing sites in

09:00 Dromana, Victoria, Western Port Bay. Then decided to move back to Cairns because of real estates up here, it was a lot more cheaper to buy up in this area. Moved back up here. Over the period of time, some of the training the navy has given me has assisted me along the way, but prior to getting out I,

09:30 from the engineering type world, I ended up going through and becoming a massage therapist, big change, difference. So with that background, and also the counselling background... So came back up to Cairns and then I think I was back in Cairns for about nine to ten months before I eventually got around to securing myself a job,

10:00 of which I’m presently employed which is working in indigenous social, emotional health and well being, so.

Fantastic, that’s great. Well Elley I’d like to take you right back now to growing up in Cairns. Can you tell us what your earliest memories are?

Earliest memories was, actually my earliest memory goes back prior to that, it was on the cane farms just outside of Cairns,

10:30 my father was a labourer there. Went to Gordonvale School till the age of, I think it was six, then we moved into the so-called, big city. From there I went to one of the state schools in Cairns, Balaclava. It was a, oh very happy childhood growing up because,

11:00 how would you say, the friends that I’ve made over the years growing up in Cairns. Cairns was at that time, population was around about forty-five thousand, so basically you knew every family member, every different families and that, around. Oh there’s a lot more things to do then than what there is now, so.

What sort of things?

Well back then families,

11:30 well you could go out, camp out over night in the foothills and not worried about being, you know... If I was a parent now, there’s no way in the world I’d allow my child to do what I’ve done, because of elements out there in society.

Well what sort of things were you doing as a child?

Fishing, swimming,

12:00 camping, bush walking, basically on a rotational basis. ‘Cause remember back then it was, I think TV was only in the late 70’s and all that, but that was no interest to us. We went out and made fun, we done things that... But mind you, you know, five o'clock we still had to report back in where we were, we still had to have permission to be out half past, 12:30 after half past five. Then as, I mean, as time went on seventeen, eighteen, surprising enough I was still being, the latest for then was nine o'clock at night that I’d be allowed out. Oh, not allowed out but, I don't know, we were, back then it was more of a cocoon society where everyone looked after one

13:00 another.

So you said that your father was a labourer in the cane fields. And where did you live at that point?

On cane farms. Dad was a labourer, it was seasonal work, either cane farming up the Atherton Tablelands, the potato pickings or, that mainly rotated around just being on the farms and that, so.

So can you tell us what it was like living on the cane farms?

Oh I,

13:30 well at that age, I think about four to five year old and that, I had all the siblings and that, and so being a baby of the family. Mind you I come from a family where I have four sisters and two brothers, so it was quite a big. And being in isolated pockets on the farm and that, my elder siblings were, you know, being the baby I was the one who was looked,

14:00 taken care of. But you tend to knew all the cane farmers around that had children and that, so you, oh it was, everyone just gelled together, you know, there were things and that to do there. Out there was going to swimming holes, mangoes and whatever, fruits and all that, so yeah.

Do you remember the house that you lived in or one of the houses you lived in on the farm?

Quite a few actually because the

14:30 houses there were the cane barracks. The earliest recollection was one of the, yeah I remember that one of the farmers had allowed Dad to build a house down the back of one of the paddocks and that. And so on the site there would have been about, I think three houses built, or Dad, he built it all himself, so.

So what were those houses like?

I

15:00 think the biggest one was three bedroom. Well I mean to me it was like a mansion, being so small. But I remember everyone had chores and that, you know, jobs and that to do. Weekends, I can remember the sisters down on hands and knees with the scrubbing brush and scrub and clean the floor and all that, because it was wooden flooring and all that. But yeah, you had that, the other

15:30 chores were, because we had a fresh water tank but our nearest tap was about, oh I think it was about five hundred, six hundred yards away. So that was another chore was for the eldest siblings to roll out the hose, top up the tank, so yeah, another lot to go out and get firewood and all that, so it was, you know. I was quite lucky because being the youngest, there was nothing much I could do, or that I wanted to

16:00 do anyway.

So can you tell us about your father, what sort of man was he and what his background was?

Dad, his background, he was, well when Dad died I was only twelve, but my earliest recollection of him was hard working, very hard working man. Very family orientated, strict discipline,

16:30 but he wasn’t the one who was more of the discipline side, it was Mum, but when Dad stepped in we knew that it was serious enough. But as for Mum, I mean discipline in our home, household was very strict. I mean I got away with a lot of things, being young.

What sort of things did you get away with?

Oh, you know, I mean I didn’t have to do

17:00 much in the way of chores and all that. And, you know, I think I was one of the biggest sooks around, I mean if anything that I wanted I cried for, I basically got, so. Yeah, you know, if anyone even touched me up the wrong way that I didn’t, supposedly didn’t like, I just wanted sympathy, I’d just start crying and I’d be away, home and hosed.

And what about your mum, what was she like?

Mum,

17:30 very, very, how would you say, very, very hard working, very loving. She, like I said, she was the one who basically ran the household. And, yes for a, you know… I mean there’s not too much… it’s very hard to speak of her ‘cause, so highly, because the fact was here was a woman at the age of thirty-five, she had to 18:00 grow up seven children after Dad had passed away. And out of that, I mean she done a fantastic job because three sons ended up in the navy, daughters who went back to university and all that. So yeah, she was just absolutely fantastic and, you know, she’s great.

She must’ve been a remarkable woman, really.

She is, she is, still is.

So at what point did you move to

18:30 the big city?

Oh I think it was ‘60, oh about ‘65 or ’66. I’m not too sure.

So you were still quite young?

Yeah.

Do you remember that move?

Very vaguely because I think I would’ve been only grade three or grade four, I’m not too sure.

Do you remember anything about what you thought about moving to the city and what your thoughts were when you

19:00 arrived there?

I think it was a lot more, everything was a lot more easy then because… I mean growing up on a farm with a house that Dad built, I mean we didn’t have electricity, although we had kerosene fridges and that. You know, everything was so modernised and easy.

So back on the farm you didn’t have electricity?

No.

So no TV.

No.

No fridges.

No, we had the kerosene fridge, yeah.

You had a kerosene fridge.

19:30 What about radio?

Oh yeah, we had the radio and that. The thing was, where the house was built was, like I said, five hundred yards away was another cane barrack, and I think the biggest thing that we got was, a relative had given us a TV. So it was, to watch the TV the eldest siblings carried the TV up to the house,

20:00 plugged it in, and then after the text messages that night, which was at that time I think ten o'clock or something, they carried the, you know, the TV back down to the house and that, so that was our... But I think it was only, it wasn’t a, you weren’t addicted to the TV, it was a thing to say, “Oh yeah, we own a TV.” And I mean this is a black and white, because that sort of put you up in a different class.

20:30 So when you moved to the city you had things like all those sort of modern conveniences. And why did you move to the city?

Dad, why we moved to the city was, I think for one I think it was for, our parents, I don't know. I could assume looking for a better education for us, not better education. Mind you we were, out in the cane farm we had to get buses to

21:00 the school, local school. And you know, it was up, to get up five, six o'clock in the morning and you know, to wait up the road and get the bus to the school. But I think he came an opportunity where he basically had a more stable job, which he got as a labourer in a brick works, so that was one of the other things about moving into the city.

So how did life change for you all

21:30 moving into the city?

It was a culture shock, like I said, things were on hand, electricity, water. I think it made us more, it was easier but then again there’s the things you’d lost out,

22:00 because you know, things you lost were, over a period of time I think, you created friendship and all that with different people but, I don't know, subtle things changed.

Such as what?

Oh, you couldn’t just go for a walk up the road into the creek for a swim or whatever, until you grew up a bit. I mean there was places around Cairns you could do that. But,

22:30 how would you say, because you were with your brothers and sisters. Now you had, they created friendships and they had friendships and so they, what they did was, these friends are sort of, the nucleus of the family was breaking away, you know. That was only what, to me, that’s what in my opinion, that’s the way I saw it. But the unity still stayed there for the, you know, still as it is up

23:00 to today. But that was one of the subtle changes that I think I seemed to notice in that early stage. Not that I noticed it really much to affect me, but to the point of where reflecting back on it now, probably think, yeah, well that’s what from moving from one society to another.

And what about your school, where did you go to school then, when you went to school?

Balaclava State School and then I went to Trinity Bay High School.

23:30 From Trinity Bay it was, I think up to the, I repeated grade ten, I went back to do my eleventh grade, ‘cause I wanted to continue on to do seniors etcetera. But, I don't know, growing up in an era where, mind you, you gotta remember 1967, I was not recognised as an Australian through the White Australia policies and all that. But I don't know, there may be a bit of reflection

24:00 that was on after that, but I was told that, you know, that I was a bad element and all that, so.

Who told you that?

Oh that was the principal. ‘Cause...

The principal of which school?

Trinity Bay High. So, he said, “No, we couldn’t have you back here.” And so forever then I started to dig my heels in, and I said, “Okay, I’ll prove to you and everyone else that...”

24:30 You know. And looking back on it, I think it was one of the best things that he ever could have done to me because I ended up with two trades, a diploma, own me own house, two cars, swimming pool, air conditioned house, so it’s not bad for someone who was a bad element.

Absolutely. When you were a child, and you were talking about the White Australia policy, were you aware of that?

No, I was not. I was not aware of it until...

25:00 always heard it now and then at school but the friends I grew up with in Cairns, at my age, we never knew these things. Never knew that there was a difference out there. Even right, I mean right up until I joined the, till I actually joined the

25:30 defence force, you know, I never found any negative out there. And until as later in life growing up, that’s when I started to, became more prevalent and all that.

So as a child and a teenager you didn’t, you weren’t really aware of any sort of racism or...?

Oh, you had racism there. Yeah, you had racism there but that was soon,

26:00 sooner knocked on the head and that, because I mean, way back then is the way it should be all the time, is that a person is judged by what they do, not by what they wear or how they look or, you know, what’s their complexion. So, you know, that’s when I was growing up, not to say it maybe different as if I was adult with that time, but as a child. Because, I mean, there was

26:30 instances there where, if there were, I think, I really can’t remember if there was an instance, but where if something was said to me, this is, I mean there was no particular time, but if something was said to me that it was, say, derogatory or that, my friends that who were with me, they would be the one who’d feel offended and they’d retaliate or do something. And it was never the

27:00 case, it was just a passing thing.

And in your family how important was your, sort of, cultural background?

It was very important. Very important because we remember, we had to know who, who we were, where we came from. The saddest part about it I suppose, is that as down through the,

27:30 I mean the eldest sister, she’s in her fifties now, and I think the, my youngest sibling she’s late thirties, oh, could be early thirties, late twenties or whatever. But as growing up and that be, a lot of, at the time down here there was, been a big change in cultural aspects and that, a lot of things, because a lot of things were taken

28:00 away from us. But reflecting back on it now, I mean if it was, what I knew now to back then, I would’ve pursued it more in a cultural aspect.

So when you say a lot of things were taken away from you, what do you mean? Speaking, you know, the language. Knowing the clan area,

28:30 rituals, ceremonies and all that, yeah, oh you know, that’s been lost.

Did you have any of that when you were growing up?

Only attending a few, that’s in a manner of going over to Yarrabah and just watching a few of the dances etcetera. But even then, because of, there’s a lot, like I said, there’s been a lot of

29:00 damages done through the churches and the assimilation of all that and... Which is quite sad because as you, even as today you go further up north in the north of Queensland, it’s still a lot more culturally wise than what it is here, you go to central Australia, more culturally... But I think I’m a more, I know more about my cultural background than rather, say, someone from

29:30 Indooroopilly in Brisbane or The Rocks in Sydney, you know, or Fitzroy Street in Melbourne.

Can you tell us a bit about your cultural background?

Yes. Aboriginal background. My, on my father’s side, he’s Yidinji which is the tribal area, here in Cairns the tribal

30:00 clan, the tribal name, but then it’s broken down from the Yidinji Muningnuylpi. Now the Muningnuylpi is because the missionary couldn’t spell it, they turned around and said, “Mundraby,” and that, from the area around Cairns, oh, over towards the eastern side of Cairns area. Dad, his

30:30 mother, she was brought down from the Cape, the grandmother, she was, oh, over half cast. Not too sure on the grandmother’s parents’ side of things but I know that could be, her father could’ve been Afghan or Scottish, I’m not too sure. But she was brought down, and her mother, in chains from up the north,

31:00 brought to Yarrabah because Yarrabah was a settlement, re-settling area, because she was brought down. I know I heard stories where she was watching her, saw her mother in chains and that, you know, being raped and that, you know, all the way down. On my mother’s side, her mother was Aboriginal and I think the father

31:30 was of Chinese background, so got quite a mixture in me. The oh, I’m lost now, you can put me back on...

That’s alright, yeah. So when you say your grandmother was brought down, who brought her down from the Cape?

The authorities, yeah. Like the stolen generation, because

32:00 grandmother being quite fair, brought down from up, what was it, Night Island, can’t think of the Cape now. Yes, yeah, I remember coming down and that so, she came down here. I mean she was a fantastic lady, fantastic.

32:30 Yeah.

What do you remember about her, if anything?

If anything, she was very fair, because I mean when grandfather passed away, basically I mean she was, she had lived quite a number of years but she was always, to me, well to me she was very quiet,

33:00 you know, always thinking. But she had quite a few siblings and that because, I think she had about eight children in all that, so.

So you said that as a child you did actually did attend some ceremonies?

Yeah, I mean some ceremonies or, a thing. I mean, when I’m saying some...

The dances or something.

Dancing, and that was mainly at...

What do you remember about those?

You know, it was a more or less

33:30 celebrationary about Christmas times or whatever, you know, it was just basically dancing.

And how did you enjoy those as a child?

How? I mean, because it was only basically a, epecially, now and then I attended so it wasn’t as...

It wasn’t a big part of your...?

It wasn’t a big part, wasn’t a big part. But I learned I think, more so that I grew up. I used to enjoy being around old people. 34:00 Maybe just to hear their stories and what they talked about and how they were going through life, and so I learned a lot from them. Respect was one of the main things and I’m glad to say that what I’ve learned there is that out of all the, no matter what country I’ve visited in the world that respect is still shown to whatever elders are out there, so...

Do you remember any of the stories that the older

34:30 people told you that were significant for you?

No, well I mean I’d really have to sit and really think about it or I’d need prompting and then a way of seeing different areas and that and then, “Ah yes, I remember that and that.”

Sure, that’s okay, no just, you know, what you remember, yeah. So you didn’t really have an issue as you were growing up of feeling... but you did

35:00 mention that school principal who told you you were a bad element. Why do you think he told you that?

I honestly don’t know from that day till today. I don't know, I mean that’s, if I can, you know, if you asked him, I suppose he wouldn’t remember, but I do because it has that affect on me till today

35:30 where I could’ve been or what I could’ve done.

Sure, but you decided to prove him wrong anyway, so...

Prove him wrong, yeah.

Yeah. How did you enjoy school when you were growing up?

It was good. I mean I was just like every...there’s nothing special about me and you did play your wagon and all that. But then I think as time grew by, I mean my grades weren’t fantastic

36:00 but then at sixteen, seventeen I could see the importance of it and, you know, you came across phases where friends had left school at age of fifteen, got apprenticeships and all that and, you know, oh if they could do it, I could do it. But I tried it, didn’t work for me so that’s why I went back to repeat grade ten and I just sort of tried to, I said, “Okay, well I’ll move on

36:30 from there.”

So what sort of subjects did you particularly like at school?

Very much social studies, English, geography, they were about my three main subjects that I like.

And what about sport, was that important for you?

Sports was to a certain extent. I mean it was a peer group thing, everyone else was playing one sport so you joined up, and that was...

37:00 Biggest thing I think was rugby league. Did try soccer, that was probably only for about two matches because there was a promise of a trophy afterwards, but I didn’t like that. Aussie Rules, ptew, speaks for itself, so I just stuck to rugby.

And were you good at rugby?

Oh yeah, I think I,

37:30 couple of trophies I got, I think they were for best and fairest, so.

So you played with the school team?

Gordonvale I was, I was playing as a school team, school sport, but after then it was club, club sports, so played for a club. And then again it was peer group, everyone else was playing so you didn’t want to be sitting on the side line.

And what about outside of school with the, with your siblings, did you all play sport together?

Like I said, the

38:00 siblings basically, the only time we saw each other was when we were in the house altogether. But, you know, we each had different friends and that all to go to and all that so, but not very, we didn’t see each other... I think the elder brother, he played sports, I’m not too sure about the sisters whether they played sports. Mind you when we moved to Cairns, I mean they were sixteen, seventeen and all that, so.

So they were sort of doing their own thing?

Girlies do what girlies

38:30 do, so.

Well what about family celebrations when you all got together, what were they like? I suppose just like any other normal family.

Do you remember Christmases for example?

Christmases, yeah. I mean looking back on it now, it must have been a real trying time for the parents because financial-wise, you know, it was very, very hard

39:00 to, back at that time. It was like, I think we grew up to a stage, we got to the stage of saying, “Oh well, Christmas once a year.” I mean every day should be Christmas because of the togetherness, what we felt, you know, it was, I don't know, it felt like being bribed for doing something good all year and that. I mean even now I look back on it and Christmas is just

39:30 another day for me.

Sure.

Because religion never played a big part. I suppose in our, in the family, on the religious side, I think, oh well I think the family’s more spiritual than what it is religious. Even right up till today I’m more spiritual than what I am religious, so I don’t take no religious domination whatever, either.

40:00 So when you were growing up church wasn’t a big part of your...?

No, well to me it wasn’t, to myself. As for the rest of the family, I think sisters, it played a part, a role in their lives, but as for myself, no.

Okay, we’ll stop there...

Tape 2

00:32 So yeah, going back to family life and you were talking about... so you did, as a family did you do anything together?

Oh, a few things but I think more so is when times, financial times were hard was to see the family out in the middle of the paddock picking potatoes, yeah was, you know... But I mean, yeah we done a lot of things together.

01:00 Things like when we were out, prior to moving to Cairns, we had a grandmother who lived on a sand bar in the middle of the mangroves straight across from Cairns. And for holidays, breaks and that, school holidays, we’d go down there, you know, and it was great because I mean you had to walk a period of about seven or eight miles, and

01:30 you know, for the family to walk together, you know, here’s a husband and wife with six children, you know, five children, walking down the road. Of course I, being the youngest, I’d cry and get carried. But, you know, it was, to go down there, and I mean that’s… What I forgot to mention earlier about it, with the grandmother, I mean why she played a big part in my, role in my life was...

02:00 I don't know, I thought I was treated special or whatever because of my complexion, was very light like hers. And with the grandmother, when I, the parents wanted me to be off the bottle, I was taken down to me grandmother and she was the one who weaned me off the bottle, so, ah, not off the bottle, off the breast and that.

02:30 And I think off the bottle also. So yeah, she, you know, that’s the earliest I can, recollection memory of there. So being, instead of being a night… an evil grandmother took me off the bottle or whatever, it turned out for the better.

So you were quite close to home as a child?

Close, but I wish I was more close, I mean ‘cause, and it was... I mean, personally to myself in my own mind was

03:00 being of a fairer skin than everyone else in the family that I was more close, you know, I was close. I felt more close to her because of her complexion. I mean I only wish I had… I know Mum has earlier photos of myself is where, you know, blonde hair and blue eyes and you know, really, really fair skin. I mean, apart from the features of the nose and the forehead you wouldn’t know that I was an Aboriginal

03:30 child. So, yeah, so no, I mean she, very significant role in life with me.

As a child and a teenager were you proud of your heritage?

Yeah, yeah, still am, still am. Fiercely proud. Back then and now, but I’d say,

04:00 I take my hat off to anyone, you know, in the way of, to have strong ties, cultural ties etcetera. I mean I’ve learned a lot and I think that through the years of military travelling and that, I’ve learned a lot. I’ve learned a lot in the way of my biggest educator was the travelling, going to different countries and that. I mean,

04:30 to have negativeness about, okay, issues in Australia today, white and black, doesn’t really faze me. I mean hey, I went right to Moscow, met my wife there, you know. So she’s Russian and I’m Aboriginal so, you know, so it’s… I’m flowing freely at the moment.

What about music

05:00 as you were growing up, was that important in your family?

I suppose as any indigenous ones are the biggest influence, area in that time, was the country and western. But our cultural music, it was, it is very… I was going through a phase where, you know, how would you say, elders wanted to teach me but I was

05:30 too, you know, didn’t have, I didn’t wanna get involved. I didn’t see any, at that time, I didn’t see any significance or any importance at that time, but now looking back, you know, they should’ve been more forceful.

So what sort of music did you like as a teenager?

I didn’t have any really good taste for music and that.

06:00 I’ve always, how would you say, I’ve always liked quietness. Solitude. Oh, I had a bit of taste for jazz and that, bit of the 60’s. But more so in the way of oh, yeah, I mean

06:30 even up to now, I mean, I’m in love with well, instrumental, I just love any type of music that’s instrumental.

So were you, did you know anybody who had participated in any wars as you were growing up?

I got a few elder cousins, yes, who went to Vietnam and that. So, but I’ve seen a few of the,

07:00 the elder type indigenous that went to war, yes, I saw them.

And did they, do you remember anything that they spoke about, about their experiences ?

No, I never intermingle, you know, I never... honestly I didn’t even think I’d ever join. The military was, I didn’t find it romantic, seeing them, I never understood, this

07:30 is like Anzac Day. I mean, I suppose there was a bit of romanticism in there because I think the closest I came to joining the army, I was in the army cadets at, when I was in high school. I had army cadets, and I think just after I left school, I looked at the CMF, the citizens military force.

08:00 The closest I came there was to have my photo in the paper saying I was a new recruit or new enrolment, but that was it.

Was that your choice, to be in the army cadets?

It was.

So why did you want to be in the army cadets?

Well, I had a friend who was in the navy cadets and his father was in the air

08:30 force. And it was a competition basically between us. And I said, you know, “Why join the navy?” You know, “A ship sinks at sea, you got a lot of swimming to do,” you know. “Whereas on land you got a lot of walking,” which is easier. And so I’ve always stuck with the army and then, you know, years later I ended up in the navy.

So how old were you when you joined the army cadets?

I think I was about thirteen, fourteen.

09:00 So can you tell us what you did when you...?

Oh, when I was thirteen, fourteen I think I was in for a couple of years, and the places… I think I just wanted the adventure of going out camping and all that.

What sort of things did you do with the cadets?

Camping, mainly camping. Might have to get a drink of water.

Yeah sure. Sorry.

09:30 Okay, so back to the army cadets, so you went camping, so what else did they teach you?

Oh, what’d we learn in the army, apart from polishing our boots and the brass? Camping, I think it was oh, bit of bush skills in the way of the army and that, a bit of discipline. 10:00 Not much marching or anything like that, oh parade work. Mainly, oh well if there were drills and that, it was mainly with the rifle, and apart from cleaning rifles, but yeah, a lot of it was training, it was orienteering work.

And what did you like about it?

Couldn’t say.

10:30 The colour of the uniform, definitely not. No it was, I liked the camping, going out there and being a part of a group. I suppose, that’s about it, yeah.

Did you make some good friends during that time?

Well then again, it was peer group but just followed what everyone else done, so yeah I had, made friends and that. I think the biggest camp we ever done was going to Townsville,

11:00 about four and a half, five hours away from here, and it’s on an area where, you know, just outside of Charters Towers. We had, I think five or six other schools participating, so it was just like one big so- called military base then. And yeah. No I really enjoyed that.

So what was your concept of war at that time?

War.

11:30 Never even crossed my mind. Never. Never crossed my mind, even right up to now, oh well now it’s changed, but no, war was, it was far away, it had nothing to do with me.

What did you know about the Vietnam War?

Only in later life and what went on and that. But

12:00 I was a bit too young to even, I think it was ‘74 when it, ‘74, ‘75 when it finished, but I was fourteen, fifteen at the time it was, that was overseas, had nothing to do with me. Like I said, TV and news, there was plenty of other things to do than rather sit down and

12:30 watch the news or listen to the news, so out of sight, out of mind.

You mentioned Anzac Day before, how was Anzac Day celebrated in Cairns and what do you remember about it?

I think Anzac Day was, I think the only time at that, in those teenage years that I went to Anzac Day was being there in the army cadets. And

13:00 I think that was only once or twice, I’m not too sure. Anzac time, it’s another thing, you know, if I did go along, it was only as a spectator not as a participant.

Oh sure, but what did you think of it as a boy?

It was always questioning why people celebrated death,

13:30 you know. But I was only young then so you know, always fell under the category, out of sight, out of mind.

And you said that you think you went when you were in the army cadets.

Yeah.

Do you remember what you thought about it then?

I was, more so I was there as part of a unit and

14:00 you know, I was, “Hey look at me, I’m part of something, part of a thing.” That was, my main issue was I was being part of something then rather than why I was there in the first place.

So you didn’t associate what you were doing in the army cadets or the military with war?

No, no.

So at what,

14:30 you left school in fact and you said you did several different jobs. At what point did you start thinking about joining the defence forces?

At what point was, like I said, since being overlooked to going back to school. Since I was told oh, I couldn’t go back to school.

15:00 I’ve always worked, and as I said, one of my first jobs was as a store man driver. Because of the change of hands of companies and that were closing down, I was retrenched or... For that period of time I was off was, I think was four or five weeks, I couldn’t handle staying around, the dole was at that time. 15:30 I didn’t like that scenario so went fruit picking, and it was always in the back of my mind. I loved travelling, I wanted to travel and see more and more things, different places, experience different experiences and that. Everyone had the opinion that I joined up because I had an elder brother that was in, and that’s not the case. And I mean everyone was, relatives, even friends thought,

16:00 oh even Joe Blow, when I said I had an elder brother in, they’d say, “Oh you joined because of your elder brother.” No it wasn’t, you know. The same as when the younger brother joined up later in life, everyone thought that because his two elder brother was in... No, he joined up for his own reasons, you know, his own purpose. And I know I just loved the travelling so I just wanted to see more, experience more.

How did you find out about the navy?

16:30 I was, how I found out was because I had an elder brother in of course. But because I’d, see seventeen, eighteen onwards, I was more independent. How I found out was, I thought, well, it was just off the cuff, I was walking past the recruitment office and I says, “Oh, you know, I love travelling

17:00 so I’ll go in and try.” All in all, I’m thinking it took me, the amount of times I tried to get in was three, so I was determined to get in.

So how long had your brother been in the navy by then?

I think he was in for about five years before I joined up, five or six years.

And did he speak to you about his experiences?

No, not really, no.

So you didn’t...?

Oh,

17:30 apart from that, he was in and all that.

So I mean, did you know whether he was having a good experience in the navy or, I mean were you at all inspired by what you heard from him?

No, because, I mean he’s quite a few years older than me. Of course, you know, I was happy, I was proud that he was in. I think

18:00 apart from the travelling, there was a job there and it was a secure job, so that was also I think, the only other mitigating thing about me getting in.

What did your parents think about you joining up?

To tell you the truth, from back then right up till now I’ve never asked em ever, found out what their thoughts were.

Did they not react in any way when you told them?

18:30 They could have but I never noticed it. As for me it was, oh it was no big thing to me. ‘Cause it, you know, I was quite, yeah, it was nothing major for me at the time.

So can you tell us about the process of trying to join up, you said you tried three times?

Well, the first time, like I said, was passing through Wollongong in New South, and they said because

19:00 I was a transient, better wait till I get to a more permanent place and that was outside of Cairns, ah, Mundubbera, just outside of Kingaroy. Applied there, went down and done a medical, passed the medical. They said, “Yeah, you’ll be in the next intake.” And that was in late 80’s, but that never eventuated.

19:30 And so then I came back up to Cairns. Friends of mine knew that I was determined to get in, and so like I said, he asked his father to... His father, well he didn’t, his father knew I was determined to get in, so what he did was just rang up the recruitment in Canberra to find out what was the go. And yeah, so apparently there was paperwork had gone lost and whatever.

20:00 And I think a couple of weeks later I received a telegram to say, ‘Hey, be ready on such and such a date, you’re going in.’

Had you had to do some tests prior to that?

Yeah, had to do the aptitude test. Like I said, I done all that in Brisbane, medical and the aptitude tests I passed there. So...

What do you remember about those tests and the medical examination?

The aptitude test I think it

20:30 was so basic, although it had me worried on the mathematics side of things because hey, when it comes to fractions, forget it, you know, no Einstein here. Yeah, so it was a medical, yeah, everything went sweet, there was no problems there. So like I said, the aptitude test was just easy.

So when you finally got that telegram,

21:00 do you remember how you reacted to that?

My reaction was, basically I think it was, ‘Oh you beauty, here I go,’ you know. I think I worked two weeks up to the day before I actually had to fly out, so. There’s no big celebrations or nothing, it was,

21:30 yeah. I mean, look, as for leaving the place or joining up, to me it was just so natural and so basic. I didn’t make it, it may have been a big issue back to Mum and that, and any other siblings but to me it wasn’t.

You’d already left home to go and do fruit picking.

Fruit picking, yeah.

So where were you living when you were doing that?

22:00 The fruit picking. I think I went down to, far as Shepparton in Victoria, stayed on the orchard, orchards down there then come back up to Mundubbera, on the Burnett Downs, stayed on the orchards there, so. And I mean they were just, what do they call em, dongers then, caravan, and the whole time I was independent, so.

And how did you like that independence?

22:30 Love it, love it. Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, because I wasn’t a burden on anyone, I loved it, well so I thought anyway. So but, yeah, I love the independency.

Just going back a step, how did you react at the time that you were forced to leave school when you really wanted to continue?

23:00 I was dumbfounded. I mean, being told, because I mean it was, you know, yeah I suppose I should have pursued it and find out why more so, or why. But I was really angry, you know. I don't know, I came close to telling him

23:30 where to shove the school, you know. And I think I moped and boped, moped a bit around for a time and then in the end I said, “Oh,” you know, “get on with it.”

What were your ambitions?

My earliest ambitions at the time was, oh, because

24:00 I mean I grew up with the parents and that, and a lifestyle which was very harsh. So anything, you know, to be better than what my father was as a labourer, anything, to have a trade or... I don't know, if you were to ask me if I’d completed my higher certificate, if I’d have completed that then

24:30 I could have told you what my ambitions were, but I was still going through a phase of what I want. I knew where I didn’t want to be. I just wanted to be better than where I was. Oh, not better than my father, only in having a trade, it was a big thing to have a trade.

So you received the telegram and what in fact did the telegram

25:00 tell you?

‘Congratulations,’ if I can rightly remember, ‘your date of enrolment is such and such,’ there will... ‘Your date of enrolment such and such, papers will be following’, or something or other.

Where were you supposed to go?

My

25:30 first, I think it was fly down to Brisbane, an overnight in Brisbane, was then to get sworn in there. And then from there down to Melbourne. All I know is pulling into Brisbane, I mean I met a, became a mate who… Townsville, we stopped off in Townsville, picked up a lad there.

26:00 I can’t remember if there was ten or twelve of us that were in Brisbane. All I can remember, the place I was staying at, I don't know whether it was the Salvation Army hostel or not, but oh, the place looked like something out of ‘The Sullivans’ [TV show]. The old wrought iron beds and all that, the wind up phones, I mean

26:30 this is in the 80’s, I thought this is ancient, you know, at that time. But yeah, so.

What did you think of Brisbane generally, coming from Cairns?

Well, like I said I, I mean I, nineteen, eighteen, nineteen when I was travelling, so I’ve been to Brisbane 27:00 before. I think I was about sixteen. Brisbane as it is today, I still can’t stand the water. But I mean growing up I heard, you know, you had to be basically rich and famous to go to the cities and all that, you know. But over a period of time,

27:30 it was nothing at all when I got down there, you know. I mean coming back to Cairns I was speaking to friends and that, of course you know, there’s, been there, done that. And they were asking me about the places and that, and I’d just say, you know, something normal. There’s nothing, big expectation what I thought it would be.

So in Brisbane you actually met up with some other

28:00 young men?

Yeah, I mean there was quite a few because I mean we were guys from all over the place going down. I think the only, only one guy who came from Townsville, can’t think of his name though, for the life of me. Yeah, Townsville, from Townsville we went to... not Townsville, Brisbane. After Brisbane flew down to

28:30 Melbourne.

So you travelled all together?

Yeah, as we got to Melbourne, plane, we were all sort of herded into one specific area. I couldn’t name the place for the life of me. But oh, I can remember the old Bedford buses and they were, yeah, I mean a few of us were still basically country boys, still shy and just

29:00 staying within ourselves. Like I said, I met a couple from, I think, on the way down, one was from Townsville, another could’ve been from Brisbane, so we basically stayed the same, in the same little group. The trip from Melbourne to Western Port Bay, Crib Point, jeez that was… I don't know if it took three hours or what, but I know it was long and the bus was,

29:30 old rattly old things. You know, some stages there, I didn’t think it’d make it up the hill, you know. I know we got out to the Cerberus, the training base, late in the afternoon I think it was. Yeah, you know, grabbing your gear and settling in for the first night that was.

What were your first impressions of the training base?

30:00 It was huge, you know, it was big, a hive of activity. I was impressed. It was a town within a town, you know. But the thing was, I think it was miles away from the city. Yeah, so yeah

30:30 that was my first impression.

And what about the navy itself and the people who were going to be instructing you?

Very disciplined. I mean I didn’t find it challenging. I suppose it was challenging but I just went along with the flow, you know, I went along with it.

Were you in any way surprised or taken aback by the way things operated there?

31:00 There were a few things that was questionable but then once you… I mean basic training was four weeks, I think it was. Four weeks, no it was longer, eight weeks, eight or twelve weeks. Yeah, twelve weeks, twelve weeks basic training. You’d done things and

31:30 it was always questionable in your mind until after when you left, then you understood why it was being done, why you were being moulded in that way.

Do you remember the very first day of training?

Very first day was, yeah, pack up, get all your civilian clothing, put em in a bag. They got locked away, you didn’t see those for twelve weeks. Going down, getting issued

32:00 with uniforms. Looking back on it, it was rather ridiculous because you were, you didn’t know how to wear the uniform. The first couple of days I think was, apart from getting issued your uniform, first couple of days was just relaxing. Getting your uniform then going down getting your hair cut, and I

32:30 think that was the biggest thing. ‘Cause I thought I had, I got a hair cut prior to, two days prior to going down to Melbourne, and to get down there and be shorn again, you know, that was yeah, surprising. But those, yeah, the first couple of days that was, looking back on it was relaxing. I mean even though there was discipline there and you still, until... They gave you

33:00 about five days and then after that, that’s when the screws were tightened and you were pulling the line, you know, it changed. That was for four weeks. Mind you the whole time we never saw our civilian clothing. When I turned twenty-one was the day that we were allowed out of the gates onto the streets with the civilians, you know.

What did you think about

33:30 the uniform? Because it was plain it was good. No, I mean it was. I think I was aspiring to you know, to move up ranks and all that. But yeah I, no I liked the old uniform. I mean, I like em a lot better then than what I do now, the new ones now.

How did you feel when you put that

34:00 uniform on for the first time?

Look, through the training, we went through basic training, how do you feel... you’re upper class, you’re a lot higher than a civilian, because you have more discipline. You’re on a higher status, that’s what training does to you. Yeah the,

34:30 building your self, building your self discipline, really built the self discipline in you. Yeah, you’re on a higher status, you’re better than any civilian.

And were there any aspects of the training that you found tough?

No. Apart from the physical side of things of running. I’m not a running person. But no, everything was a new experience.

What about the physical

35:00 training, how hard was that?

It was hard but not as hard as what I later learned it to be than my brother, you know, who was in there prior. I mean they used to get up at five o'clock in the mornings to run. We weren’t allowed to be up that early. I mean we were up but we don’t do physical training and all that.

Can you describe the physical training that you did do?

I think sports days is,

35:30 was every Wednesday, you selected whichever sports you wanted to play, you had to go and do that sport. The Friday afternoons I think it was, you had, because the train used to go all the way out to Crib Point and you had a Liberty train there, and you had to do a four, five mile run. And

36:00 you had to be back, ‘cause the train left at, I think it was about four-thirty in the afternoon, or four- thirty or five, and you went for a run at four. You had to complete that run, be back. If you’re back, you were given twenty-five minutes or something or other to do the run so that gives you enough time to get changed, showered, changed and everything to jump on that train. If you miss that train, the next train only left on a Saturday morning, so you

36:30 done all out to get back in time to get that first train ashore.

So what about on a daily basis, was there physical training every day?

When you’re doing basic training, it was but it wasn’t, but you know, we found it physical but it wasn’t physical. What it was is discipline training, marching. Marching, I think that was the hardest part, marching, doing drills and all that. And you can, you know, at that time we wondered why we were doing it and

37:00 doubling, running around everywhere, we couldn’t understand it. But looking back until after the period of time you could see that you were being moulded, you were being disciplined to work as a unit, as, togetherness.

How did the instructors treat you as new recruits?

Harsh. You knew where your place was. Harsh but

37:30 for the good.

In what way harsh?

Well you know, we couldn’t understand it, why we were told to run while he was on his push bike while we’re, you know, he was riding beside us while we were... I mean, that’s what I’m... Harsh, I mean it’s the same way as I suppose, reflecting back on my family life, I mean, I could say I had strict discipline when I grew up.

38:00 Compared to now, today’s society, if that same strict discipline that I received, which done me fantastic, if I had children and I put that strict discipline in today, you know, I’d be done for child abuse, you know. You know, ‘cause you’re not allowed to smack your child now, you know, that’s an abuse, where it did no harm to me. All it did was make me better. But now, I mean,

38:30 harsh, but then like five years earlier for what I was training, coming through then was a lot harsher than what I’d received, when I came. And like I said, even right up until 2000, you know, I look at the basic training then, and I shook my head because they’re not allowed to run anymore, they’re not allowed to double. 39:00 You know, it’s tapered right off. Yeah.

How did the instructors speak to you?

Always with respect. Well, I look at it as respect. Straight. Straight off the, you know, they talk straight to you. I mean you were there to...

39:30 The beauty of it’s if you questioned them they gave you an answer. And so in the end you, in the end you built a respect up for them. They had to earn our respect but after the basic training and all that, they received the respect that they wanted, yeah.

Did they, I mean, did they use normal tones of voice or were they, when they spoke to everybody on

40:00 parade and drill?

All depends, what do you mean by normal?

I mean were they, we’ve heard stories of recruit training where people were being yelled at all the time. Was that going on, or not?

It could have been, but then again you gotta think of the environment you’re in. I mean you’re in a, say a squad of fourteen or maybe twenty odd.

40:30 And this is a training establishment where you’ve got maybe five or six other squads going around. And you know, “I’m taking charge of you,” someone else is twenty feet away he’s taking charge of another. And he’s gotta raise his voice to get over those twenty. And so you know, that’s where it may seem as if they’re yelling and all that but... sorry.

That’s alright, we’ll stop

41:00 there anyway.

Tape 3

00:31 What sort of social things did you do when you were in training?

Social things. Social things are, the first four weeks, like I said, it was just take you away from civilian environment. Then the first day we were allowed back into civilian, to mingle with civilians, was my twenty-first birthday. So

01:00 as anyone who’s had their twenty-first birthday I think, the four of us hired a car, went out and... It was strange, I thought we’d all go out and head to the pub or that but, I don't know, alcohol wasn’t such a big part. I think we headed, yeah we headed down to

01:30 Portsea, booked into a hotel there and, sort of… Twenty-first it was sort of basically a, well, it was our first time away from being under instructions, discipline, so I think we just let our hair down and just basically tried to sleep in when we could. Yeah.

02:00 Through the basic training period it was, where Cerberus was, I mean situated, located, not having any transport around at that time and it was only train trips and that, so you very rarely, you ever looked about going into Frankston or anything like that. I don't know, you were,

02:30 you didn’t want to leave the base, you know. You tend to sort of, the discipline side sort of grew onto you, you just didn’t want to leave that barrier.

What about on the base, what was the mess like?

On the base the, I mean, this is what we didn’t like about, well I didn’t like, like leaving the area, ‘cause we had a picture theatre there.

03:00 The mess, apart from ship’s company, we had to, where everyone congregated to have a meal, I suppose it was clean at that standard but it wasn’t, because the place used to be infested with birds, so basically you had to eat with your, watching out for bird droppings coming down, so.

03:30 Never knew any different, you know, I mean, never knew any different. I thought, this is normality. Now I suppose if, occupational health and safety walked in there at that time, the period, the whole place’d be closed down, but, you know, hey, it’s part of growing up.

How long was your whole basic training?

Basic training, twelve weeks, then you had category training. And category training is what you

04:00 suited, what branch you want to go into. In the navy you had engineering, you had gunnery or you had writers, so you had different branches and whatever you selected. I always wanted to come into the writer’s branch, but the writer’s branch, but I was steered away from it and said, “Oh no.”

04:30 I think the question was asked, “How mechanical are you?” And I said, “Oh well, I know enough to get meself going if I broke down on the side of the road with a pair of pliers and some fencing wire.” And they said, “Oh good, you’ll make a good engineer,” you know. I ended up in the engineering side. Now I think it wasn’t, they had at that time, I suppose still hasn’t changed, but they had x numbers of vacancies in

05:00 different branches and that. And they had to fill it so they, you know, someone came along and said, “Oh,” you know... I mean if they came up and said, “Do you know how to sharpen a pencil?” And I said, “Yeah.” Well they woulda said, “Oh well you’re going to the writer’s branch,” you know. So it was, one of the question was, “If you broke down on the side of the road.” And they said, “Oh are you good at wood working?” And I said, “Yeah,” you know, “I like wood working.” “Okay, well you go in the hull, in the engineering branch, but in the hull section.” So

05:30 that’s how it was then around that time, that’s the way I looked at it. But always, and they said to me, “Oh yeah, you can become a writer later on, after the next couple of years.” And I never ever got round to it. I stayed with the engineering side.

What was involved in the writing that you liked?

I don't know, I just liked the writing side, just writing with pencil, pens. It was, I suppose it was

06:00 theory side that I liked more than the writer’s side.

And what was involved in that job exactly?

I don't know ‘cause I never went into it.

What did you think it would be?

Well, that’s what I thought, a lot of it’s writing, you know, writing skills, learn different writing skills, and that’s, I suppose why I wanted to become a, wanted to go into the writer’s branch, or whatever.

What were the most valuable things you learned in that basic training, do you think?

The most

06:30 valuable thing was, well, very hard to try and put it down into a nutshell. I suppose, self discipline. Self discipline and working, working as a team, what I would’ve learned through basic training.

Did you at all feel ostracised because of your cultural background

07:00 in basic training?

No, no, no. If things were done to me because of that, I never noticed, never noticed. There’s always instilled in me at that time that, you know, everyone’s treated as one. Yeah, that’s what it was.

What about your peers, was there joking...?

I think the peers, we did have

07:30 oh, yeah peers, yeah, you still had, I mean, you basically had different classes passing out every four weeks and you did have, came across the odd few, who, you know, who turn around and tried to put nick names onto you that were derogatory and that. But behind closed door you sorted it out.

08:00 That is one thing I never allowed, was anything of racial terms and derogatory manner come to me. I stood up for myself.

So would that become, would you get into a kind of fisticuffs or how would you sort it out, what was your approach?

To be truthful, over the whole twenty years, I’ve never, never ever came to that,

08:30 any altercations like that about cultural backgrounds. Others may have seen it but I’ve never. I mean others may have retaliated different ways, if they did come across it, what I speculated to be, they may have retaliated different, but I never.

And so did you just

09:00 talk to them about it?

Well, I suppose, you know, talk to them about it but I also drew a line in the sand and say, you know, “I’ll never cross that barrier.” Or, “Don’t ever cross that barrier.” Pride takes over there, so yeah, I always drew a line in the sand.

Were there other men that joined with you that had an Aboriginal heritage? 09:30 There could’ve been, there were, but I think I, in front of me there was a Maori, a couple of Maoris. If there were, they were in other branches that I never came cross or whatever,

10:00 because, I suppose, the old part wasn’t segregation, it was building a... and you never noticed it though. I mean the, I think the only thing was noticeable was after everyone had their hair cut, who had the biggest ears, you know, the VW [Volkswagen] doors on it, you know. That was,

10:30 apart from that, regardless of what skin colour, was those features that stood out. And I think at that time that was the main thing that everyone stood out, was how far the ears stood out after a hair cut. So...

Did you have anyone in the group that was, you know, a character or that would be doing funny things? What were some of the funny things you remember about recruit training?

About recruit training.

11:00 No, I don't think, you did have the occasional joker but I mean it’s a whole new world we were in, you know. Everyone of us were, you know, learning a whole new world and yeah, so it was, you did have your

11:30 occasional prankster and all that, but I think it was just, everyone was just in awe, you know. And more than anything we were, I suppose, looking at one another say, okay, because I think after the first, until the time of, we were passed out of basic training, we were seeing who was gonna drop out, you know, who wasn’t gonna go the distance.

12:00 And that was more than anything, was just waiting round to see who was gonna go the distance.

And how many people did drop out?

I think the class I was in, out of the twenty-odd, probably about three. Three out of my class, but out of the division, I think the whole division, there would have been forty out of two hundred and fifty.

12:30 So yeah.

What were some of the reasons for people dropping out?

Well, for instance, oh, the lad… I was in…he was, everything, they couldn’t fault him. He was immaculate in every way. But, I don't know, he’s, he left ‘cause he wanted to go back to uni. That was one of the reasons. I suppose he was the

13:00 only one I ever got to know because he was in my room, and I mean we shared a room, four of us in one room, so it was, you got to know the person. And as for the other one, I think he just wanted to see what it was like after his time there, then left, no questions asked.

So when you got put into the categories that you had chosen, what happened next?

13:30 We each got sent to respective accommodation area where engineering, like for instance I was in engineering branch, the engineering accommodation area. Sent there then you started your basic training in engineering and that was, what was it for me, going back to basics, learning

14:00 mathematics and all that. Metal work, wood work, how steam turbines worked, all that, so it was, because everything was still being run by steam then, so it was learn all that, expansion.

Where was the base for that training?

Cerberus which is Western Port Bay. I think it’s the largest training base, military training base in Australia.

14:30 So, I think when I was there, at its peak you had something, about four thousand people on the base.

I don't know if you explained it with, Eleanor, might have missed it, but did you describe the base at all?

No, all I said was just the picture theatre but...

If you were to walk through the gates of that base, could you give us a kind of virtual tour of what we’d see?

Okay.

15:00 Yes, you had, first came up, you had over the railway lines, oh there’s two railway lines, you had two gates, you had the inner gate and the outer gate. Come through the outer gate then you got to the inner gate, the railway line where the train stopped and all that, the station. You had naval police on your left hand side.

15:30 As you went up further you had oh, it was just all, just after the police station you had a church and football grounds, football, a sports ground. As you went up near the tennis court, on the right hand side was the tennis courts, beyond that was 16:00 the women’s, females, WRANS [Women’s Royal Australian Naval Service] quarters, and the WRANS school so that’s where the women done their training. On the right you also had another sporting area, as you came up a bit further, it was, the left hand side was a service station. Then basic, the recruit school.

16:30 Oh, it’s so big it’s pretty hard to go right through it all, but yeah.

No it’s really good.

Yeah, I mean at that time being on there, you had the millionaires club, millies, you had the, your wet canteens, the alcohols. I mean basic training we weren’t allowed to touch alcohol for the whole twelve weeks, or even in basic training we weren’t

17:00 allowed to touch alcohol on the base, and that was for the twelve weeks. You had a heated swimming pool, tennis courts, fire brigade, you had a police station, you had yeah, the picture theatre. So basically everything you wanted was there. Oh,

17:30 everything that I wanted anyway.

Did you have much to do with the WRANS?

No, no, no. Only thing I remember about that, coming through my basic training, was seeing them at night, you know, marching in their squads. The first row I think had torches to march down the road with the torches on. And they were sort of a,

18:00 everything was segregated, even the sitting area inside the mess hall, so they sat in their area, we sat in ours. And they did, I think, we thought they were lucky because they didn’t have as long as, in doing basic training that what we did. You know, I think they’re short by a month or so, wasn’t, oh can’t rightly remember that far, yeah. And yeah, so they were there, but then again

18:30 it was out of sight, out of mind.

So when you went into the engineering department, did your mates go with you?

Some did, some didn’t. But yeah you, yeah some, quite a few came with me. Yeah, everyone sort of dispersed, because everyone wanted to do their own

19:00 specialised area, categories and all that.

Were you keen to get on a ship by then?

Yes. And oh, I mean, basic training I think there was about another eight months.

In engineering?

In engineering, learning engineering aspects. Yeah, I was quite keen to get to a ship. And I think at that time it was, the talk was, even as we came close to

19:30 the time of being dispersed was, you know, what ships. I selected the aircraft carrier. Other guys in the engineering field didn’t want to go to the aircraft carrier because it was so old in that time, and that was so old and that. So many things what we heard about it, you know, the aircraft… [HMAS] Voyager and, the Voyager and the

20:00 [USS]Frank E Evans and that, and nobody wanted to go to a jinxed ship, but I wanted to go so. I think best mate and I were the only two that got it, so you had to select what ship you wanted to go to. If you were lucky there was a vacancy there, you got that ship, if you didn’t you were, either had to, they wanted to get you to sea as quickly as possible to

20:30 cement your training.

So was that your first choice?

My first choice, first choice was the Melbourne, yeah.

And in that, that was nine months of training in the engineering department, what are some of the significant memories for you, of that period?

At that time was to turn around and think, you know, we’ve gone through the steam era, why are we still playing around with steam?

21:00 And lo and behold, I mean here we are 2004 and we still have steam, so. I just couldn’t… it was very hard to gel that we were still playing around with steam in the 80’s. So yeah that was...

What was the hardest part of learning the engineering?

A lot of it’s, quite a few of it’s mathematics and that’s my downside. Mathematics,

21:30 drawing, as in technical. But yeah, I mean theory to me in some aspects is pretty boring and I just like my hands on, doing anything mechanical or whatever. Now it’s gone a full circle, I like theory side and I hate the manual aspect.

That’s interesting isn’t it, is that, do you think that’s an age thing?

22:00 No, no.

Just different interests, for the times.

Different interests, different interests. You know, I mean, back then, I mean you go through the phase where now I’m an avid book reader, you know. Well I suppose, well as much as I, what I can read, when I got the time. Yeah, one of those phase things.

What about your

22:30 instructors in the engineering department, were any of those significant for you, as a role model?

Well, look, you could be in the service twenty, twenty-five years, you’re always learning, you’re always having an instructor so, you know, just that short period of time, those eight months.

23:00 Of course, you had some that stood out and you know, made a significant, and you know, others that stood in the background but still made a big significant, you know, step in your life.

And what would you do in your spare time in that time on base?

Your spare time was spent, wherever you could, learning, head in a book, you know, because it was

23:30 a lot of it, because until you actually was posted to a ship, you were still under instruction basically. You know, because not only were you just attending classroom at night, ah day, some areas you may have to attend at night. But then again you also had to hold duties, you know, duties were specialised area where, you know,

24:00 some areas it was every three days you had to hold a duty, or every four days or even for a whole weekend. Whether you had to, whether it be extra hand in the kitchen, dress and conduct patrol or, you know. So there are different areas of duties and that, that you, additional work on top of your work, so you had to perform those.

So from the very beginning of a day, how would a typical

24:30 day unfold in that training period?

Oh, I think it was five o'clock or six o'clock wake, shower, over to have breakfast. Came back, pick up your books and that, assemble in an area, march

25:00 to your school and that march would have been oh, quarter of a mile. Everyone had to march together, if you didn’t you’d have, how would you say, we used to call them drop bears, where the engineering, not engineering,

25:30 gunnery. Gunnery world was where you, they are the ones who taught you to march and all the rifle drills. And, you know, they’d leap, drop bears, they would leap out of trees and whatever to make sure that, you know, you were swinging the arm at the correct height and marching at the correct pace, and the distance. So you were marching every,

26:00 wherever you walked, wherever you march ah, went anywhere, you had to march and it was as a unit, as neatness. And went down, once you assembled then at your school you were still broken up into squads, into your classes and that, and you had your name, roll marked off, and went to your various classes or

26:30 what your subjects was that morning. Once that’d finished for say, till eleven thirty, you fell out of the class room and you had to march all the way back up to the mess hall. Have your lunch regardless of whether you didn’t want any, you know, you didn’t want to, you had to go back up. If you didn’t want to eat that’s up to you, but you had to be away from the school area. After your meal

27:00 probably had about five or ten minutes up your sleeve then you fell back in and marched all the way back down to parade again. Have the parade again march all the way back down to the school, fell back in there, got your name marked off, attended to whatever your class was in the afternoon, and once that had completed was to march all the way back up again.

27:30 I think, what was it, started at eight and finished at four-thirty. Then once you got back, what other things you had to do. If you had extra studies you had to do that, but you, a lot of it was personal studies. If you had duties you had to get back up there, get changed, make sure your uniform’s ready for

28:00 tomorrow, your boots polished, everything. Yeah, so it was a lot of personal discipline going on in there. If you didn’t have to do duties, probably around about seven o'clock basically, was when your time was yourself from then onwards, if you didn’t have to do any studies. And was there like a communal room where you could either watch tele or do something like

28:30 that, was it...?

Yeah there was, there was areas there, communal areas, but mind you after mental theory all day, marching and all that, everyone was... because you had to be up early in the morning. I think lights out was at ten o'clock and everyone was in bed by then. So it was the normal thing, never noticed anything different,

29:00 and, I mean, you know, what else was there to do?

Did it ever cross your mind to get out in that time?

No, no. No. I mean that was in the very beginning of my career, so no. I always set a goal.

29:30 Okay so, because when I joined up it was, the length of time you could join up for was nine years, and then after that it’s every consecutive four, four years or whatever. I set the goal, okay, I’ll make it to the nine year, and once I got to nine I’ll see how it goes after there. I think it was nine, then six, then four. But yeah,

30:00 I set, I just say, okay, that was my goal, and that’s how far I’ll go. And when I came up to that stage I said, “Oh no, I’ll stay for the next lot, see how it goes there.” Yeah so, no, never had any thought of getting out, although I suppose I thought, well, see how I go after ten years, I might pull the pin then and get out, you know. But...

In the early time, in the early training, did you get onto

30:30 ships at all?

I think one of my first experience of being on a ship was HMAS Vampire came in and we went out on a excursion on that day. And that was to, on the Vampire, and that was doing a, probably a couple of figure eights out in the middle of Western Port Bay. And that was, wow, you know, on an actual ship. Yeah.

Any sea sickness?

No, no,

31:00 no. I think I’m one of the, thank God, I never, of all my experience I never got sea sick. I’ve had bad, I think, about a bad headache and that’s about it, but never anything overpowering, and dropping, or spewing me guts or anything like that, no.

So when the posting came through for the Melbourne, can you tell us what happened after that?

31:30 That was quite, actually I thought, had to meet the Melbourne in Sydney. Flying out on the Friday, my brother was then staying in, he was based in Sydney, he was at the, oh down at Garden Island somewhere, but he was living in Alexandra in Sydney, and that was the married quarters, one of the naval married quarters there.

32:00 And because the... alarm...yeah, make the beds up, fold away every day, every morning, so and these were cantilevered so you just lift up and put away. Where my bed was I had,

32:30 I thought it was the choicest one, but I had the bottom bunk and directly across from me on the right hand side was another hatch way goes through to mess out there, which held, I think, thirty-odd. So I thought it was great position to be in but the,

33:00 the hatch, apart from being steel but there was, to modernise it there was, there was like a bar, barn door, no it was a bar room door on it. And people passing in and out... bang, bang, bang. I mean, but I grew so used to it, I mean, you know, I suppose it’s just like anyone first moving house near an airport and can’t sleep for

33:30 the first couple of nights ‘cause of the aeroplane noise, but yeah, grew onto that, so yeah.

What was the crew like?

Crew of fourteen hundred and fifty, I never got to know all of em. Like I said, I was in a mess of eighty- five. Oh, you have some really fond memories on there.

34:00 I never left Australia waters while I was on that ship. The Kangaroo ‘81 was done that trip and that entailed going to up far as Moreton Bay, Fraser Island, on exercise. Then I think furtherest down was to the bight, Great Australian Bight.

34:30 That was my first sea experience and that, and it was amazing, I mean we were gone for well over a month or so. But because of the routine that I was employed in down the engine room, punching sprayers and that, into the boilers, when you’re working four hours on, eight hours off, that was my, the first time in my life that 35:00 I’ve experienced where, went a whole month without seeing sunlight, you know. Because I was still working into the routine of four hours on, eight hours off, four. And then the eight hours off were the times you had to do your evolutions, shower, wash whatever, have your meals and still have your rest, you know, sleep. Yeah, so you worked into a routine, you just got so good at it and

35:30 took it as easy as breathing, you know, it was great.

What was involved in your job in the engine room?

Punching sprayers is what, exactly what it is, is that you had a row of sprayers, I think there were seven to each boiler. And you were watching a person, and whatever time there was evolutions or revolutions of increase or decrease of speed, you either, the sprayers

36:00 were, I think round about four foot long. And these were , all you had, furnace fuel oil being pumped into them at a high pressure through a hose so that it’s just actually sprays a hot furnace fuel oil that, well how would you

36:30 say, like a gas state where it just lit up and increased, produced more heat. And what we doing was you watch up, the chief of the watch, and he’d say either, you know, because I mean we’re in a area where it’s just absolute noise and you had ear muffs on and you were just working on signals. And it was either, you know, ‘Sprayer number one out,’ pull it out, or

37:00 he wanted two sprayers in, or three sprayers in, or four out, so you had to pull four out, put three in or whatever. So it kept you on your toes.

You liked the job?

Yeah, I liked the noise. I loved the noise, the sound, the sound and the smell, the heat, you know.

37:30 It may sound, but there was challenges there and that’s what I liked. To, I suppose it was amazing to see that steam, what steam can do, so yeah, I enjoyed it.

And what about the other blokes that you were working with, did they give you a hard time being a new guy in the team?

Well, it’s like anything. I mean, you know, any, how would you say, young apprentice, you get your hard

38:00 times and that but you also had a task that you didn’t wanna do but you had to do it. No, it’s a learning curve.

How long were you on the Melbourne for?

‘81 I think, ‘82, just over a year and a bit because then they decommissioned her. I think one of the main reasons why I wanted to go to the Melbourne was... aircraft carrier. And 2) was that there was

38:30 talk at that time that we were looking at getting the [HMS] Invincible from the British. And so, you know, I’d love to go over to Britain and that, and pick up this new aircraft carrier, because that was part of the reason I suppose why I wanted to get in that, 1) a trip overseas, and 2) pick up a new ship.

But that didn’t happen?

Didn’t happen. Yes

39:00 the government got in at the time and decided to scrap it all, you know. And then you had the, I think just after that you had the Falklands War so, and we missed out on an opportunity there in the way of having our aircraft carrier.

Was there talk of going there at all?

To the Falklands? No, not that I can remember.

39:30 Oh no, oh if there was, it was over my head. I mean I just didn’t even think about it. At the time, I suppose if war became the issue and that, I mean, I was young, I was bullet proof, yeah. Didn’t faze me.

40:00 Okay.

Tape 4

00:31 about the Melbourne prior to going on it, what did you know about the two accidents that it had had?

That the Melbourne had cut in half the Voyager and the Frank E Evans. That she was supposedly a jinxed ship. Yeah.

And what sort of 01:00 rumours went around about it?

The rumours that went round it is that so many, well, created so many deaths and that, that it was supposedly a haunted ship. Once you, you know, oh people got hurt,

01:30 yeah it was just a bad omen to be on that ship. I suppose right up until when she was, oh after decommission until she moved across the other side. And I’m led to believe that even, she was moved across to Sydney Harbour to the dolphins, which is over near Taronga Park and I’m led to believe right up until she was actually getting connected up to be towed

02:00 out to, what was it, China and that, she never left Sydney Harbour without taking her last life. One of the dockyard workers was found dead on it, and so, yeah it had, it was mysterious.

It didn’t put you off though?

No, no. I…

02:30 while it was decommissioned, as part of contingent reserve on there, from a ship that had fourteen hundred and fifty personnel to contingent reserve. I mean it was, we had about twenty, started off about twenty-four of us I think, that we had to stay on the ship at night and take it in,

03:00 you know, shift work, eight hours shifts and that to look after the ship. Yeah, there are times and that, that we, being one of those personnel and that, things that occurred that cannot be explained.

Like what?

I think one of the most memorable ones was sitting down there, there were two, four,

03:30 six of us guys that were on the ship near one of the gangways and that, and hearing the, someone running along the deck and, above us. So what we did was, I think it took me well under ten seconds to get to the top deck, oh to the deck, and took the other lad about fifteen seconds then,

04:00 just to see down the corridors, oh I think, the doors opening, the hatchways opening and that. And I mean this thing is pitch black, and we’re shining the Dolphin torch. We never thought nothing, we knew that oh, there could’ve been an intruder on the boat so we had to find this person, because

04:30 the ship’s completely blacked out and there were so many hatches and nooks and crannies that this person could fall down and get injured, and we could get sued. So we went looking and couldn’t find anyone. There was the other occasion of, because you had the aircraft had hangars, in the hangars, but you had the lifts that brought the planes up

05:00 and down to the flight deck. And one of the lifts was down, I was off duty but I went down for a visit, and sitting down there with the other dozen guys and heard someone scream. And we thought, oh, someone’s come on board, walked across the flight deck, the ship’s blacked out, he’s fallen down. And so we had to go and look to see where this person was.

05:30 Got above, I’ve shone the torch down into the lift well, there was no-one there. So yeah, but I liked it, I enjoyed it. I believe, but I didn’t, you know, like I said I only speculate, there’s so many things that happened on there that, unexplained. But yeah, had some fun times on there.

Must have seemed like a huge ship to a young guy?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

06:00 you know, the one that had, holds a crew of fourteen hundred and fifty people. I thought it was huge at the time but there were other ships around that the Americans had that made us look like dwarves, but being first time at sea on a big ship, yeah it was, it was huge, yeah. But it was amazing to have your own church, your police station, your bakery, you went for a meal,

06:30 there was, I think four different galleys on there, kitchens. The biggest one was up where, four or five, where we ate in the mess area. You could go in to have a meal and you had a selection of fast food, vegetarian, roast and all that. So you know, at flying time when the aircraft was up in the air, it was basically,

07:00 meals were twenty-four hours, you know. Yeah, it was huge. I never knew there were certain areas of the ship where the officers were down the back and, until after we were decommissioning. Had to go through and pull stuff out was, to go up into the admiral’s cuddy [cabin, quarters], where he stayed, to find out that he had a

07:30 double bed with springs, you know, and he had his own kitchen and he had a bath tub of all things. You know, jeez yeah, the hob nobs up this end. You know to, at sea it was never known, as a lower deck man that, you know, to look at the cream of having your own cabin and your own bed, but.

08:00 Yeah, no, like I said, sleeping in with eighty-five other guys you, there was no air conditioning then, it was all forced, draft air being forced through. There was an air-conditioner there that, prior to me getting out, was just one of your box window ones, but, 08:30 which was absolutely useless. Force draft air, I mean, you had air from the outside being forced through the ship, that was your cooling. And summer time down there, there were times where you had to, to get some sleep, you had to have a shower, jump into bed wet, you know. But there was the body odour, pheow. That never, you never got used

09:00 to that. So has, even in Sydney Harbour I’ve known guys to actually go up and sleep on the upper decks, drag their mattresses out there and sleep on the upper decks when it was so hot, ‘cause the inside wasn’t air conditioned.

And you didn’t do that yourself?

No. but just, yeah, persevere.

You said that you

09:30 had some really fond memories of that time on the Melbourne, what were some of the fond moments?

Friendships. More so friendships and yeah, oh just meeting great guys and that, and to be part of history I think it was, you know, to actually

10:00 serve on a, on one of the last aircraft, oh, well the last aircraft carrier that we had. And I suppose what the memories of actually being, like I said, part of it and what the Melbourne had, what she had done in history to be of fame. So, you know, the fond memories of yeah, friendship, the fondness

10:30 of meet, knowing guys that grew a bond there.

And do you remember getting off at any of the ports and having R & R [rest and recreation]?

No, like I said, the Melbourne, that was the Melbourne and that was the first trip, the only trip I’ve ever done with it was the Kangaroo exercise. The first port of call was to, pulling into

11:00 oh, to refuel in Brisbane, can’t think of the place where the refuelling’s done, to re-fuel there. Then after the exercise was to return into Brisbane and it was for R&R. My first recollection of R&R was, was it Queen Street in,

11:30 Brisbane, was trying to find my sea legs. I was motion sick walking on land because my body had, so used to movement. Must’ve looked strange, here I was holding myself up against a shop window, you know. People would’ve thought I was drunk but I just couldn’t.

12:00 Would’ve been for about five minutes I couldn’t walk. I was just swaying everywhere, and I was stone cold sober, so.

Did you go out in your uniform?

No. It was, the uniform, no, nobody, well

12:30 very few ever went out... Oh yes sorry, we did, we did a march, open march in Brisbane, freedom of entering. But being Queensland climate and that, dressed all in white and perspiration, you just wanted to get out of it quick enough, quick and easy, you know, so. Yeah, that was the only time in Brisbane, first time we ever wore uniforms and that. Oh, one of the

13:00 first times was ceremonial, first time I’d ever done a open parade in, freedom of entry in Brisbane.

And how were, how did people respond?

I don't know because I just wanted to get out of that uniform, it was too hot, you know. I mean long sleeves, long pants,

13:30 very humid weather, you just wanted to get out, get away. But I think the public liked it. I’m pretty sure the public liked it.

And after that, well on the Melbourne, did you come across any bad seas or anything that was scary?

Seas.

14:00 No, I think the length of time being out to sea on the Melbourne was quite rough in the Bight, but no, I don't think I’ve ever come across any rough seas in my life. I mean I find it more exciting than thinking how rough it is.

14:30 I mean over the period of time since being in, I mean being in a cyclone at sea, you know, the eye of a cyclone, I don’t find that rough, you know, it’s exciting. Same as I suppose, anyone who wants to go bull riding or that, that’s how I liked it, yeah.

So where did you go after the Melbourne? After the Melbourne I went to contingent reserve to, I was at a place, HMAS Kuttabul,

15:00 and which is Potts Point in Sydney, down to Garden Island. I was working on Garden Island and you had FIMA Kuttabul which is, FIMA was fleet industrial maintenance activity. They were what you call, I suppose something like RACQ [Royal Automobile Club Queensland] or the NRMA [National Roads and Motorists' Association].

15:30 They were the mechanics, and if anything broke down, we were the first ones out to repair anything on the ships. And you had FIMA Kuttabul, which was land based, few of the bases around Australia had FIMAs on them. Kuttabul had FIMA Kuttabul, and you had HMAS Stalwart was FIMA Stalwart where you had a crew on there also. So at that time I was at FIMA Kuttabul.

16:00 Whenever there was re-fitting to be done on ships, we went out to do what we could on the re-fit side of things, working in conjunction with the naval dockworkers. Being in the engineering world, I mean whether it was plumbing, sewerage, manufacturing of cabinets, or fittings and that, in ships. The FIMA had, you had, it’s broken into different branches within the

16:30 engineering. You had the hull, which is your metal fabricators and all that, which is where I was. Then you had your propulsion which dealt with all the engines, the boilers and all that. Then you had electrical, different branches in electrical, you had your EPTs [EPT: Electronic Prescription Transfer] which were your power, then you had your... ETPs was your power, ETSs [Electro Tech System] was your

17:00 supply. You had your ET, yes, some other branches, and all that. So, we were a big, diverse engineering side of it, but we all became, all under the engineering world. Yeah, I mean there were occasions where we had to, apart from doing mechanical work, we were also sort of

17:30 a supply area for, if ships were down on sailors, engineering world, we would slip into that, take that sailor’s role. If they had, that sailor had to leave his ship for either compassionate reason or reasons of illness and all that, they’d say to us, “Oh can we take one of your guys?” And we’ll go in to there. And a couple of times I went, like,

18:00 or if we could be spared and we need to continue our training in our branch. For instance, one stage there I went on the [HMAS] Perth. I went on that ship for five weeks and oh it was, it was hectic, you know. Sailing up to Cairns, going over the Solomon Islands, out to Noumea and all that. Oh, it was disgusting!

18:30 Five weeks holiday cruising the southwest Pacific. It was, oh I hated it. But yeah, so...

What were some of the big things operationally that the navy were doing at that point?

Well, it was, you had ships and that leaving in and out, and like you had major exercises, RIMPACs [Rim of the Pacific exercises]. Every year they had the RIMPACs which is held over in Hawaii. But at that time...

What’s a RIMPAC?

19:00 RIMPAC is where you had the other countries, which was conducted out in the south west, in the Pacific region, Hawaii and that, America. It was American... America, New Zealand and Australia and other countries where they conducted exercises around the Hawaii area, and that was sort of an ambition for everyone was to go on this RIMPAC exercise so you can get over to

19:30 Hawaii, you know. But then you also had southeast Asian crews where you had ships on, deployed overseas for anything up to six month, and they were up around the southeast Asian region, showing the flags. You know, whether that be Hong Kong, Philippines, round all the Asian area, basically based out of Singapore.

20:00 You know, that was another good one to get onto, six month overseas. Guys would be quite happy to be based overseas for six months. So yeah, you had, at that time more ships were doing a lot of sea time, which was great because I mean, you join the,

20:30 well I joined the navy to go to sea. if I wanted to stay alongside and on land I would’ve gone the army, you know. The navy was, was be out there on the water and go. Yeah, so that was a few of the major things that were happening around that time over the years, but then it petered out as years grew on.

So what happened after that job for you?

I went to, that was

21:00 at FIMA Kuttabul and then I went to actually FIMA Stalwart. FIMA Stalwart was I think, one of my first major crews was, that was in ‘84, was to southeast Asia, Indonesia, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, yeah that was

21:30 my biggest trip away for, I think it was four months.

How did you enjoy that? I loved it, loved it. Yeah. I think it was my first trip away but it also, apart from being my happiest, also my sadness because it was, the week of sailing was, grandmother had gone into hospital,

22:00 she had broken her hip and she was very critical. So it was either go away with the ship or come home on compassionate reason, so it was a heart rendering in which direction to take. And so the choice was up to me in the end. And I asked Mum and Mum said, you know, “You’re the one who’s making the decision.” So I continued on, and

22:30 I think the first port of call was in Indonesia when I received that my grandmother had passed away. So oh, it was sad but I mean, you know, I was very close to her, but hey, continue on. I mean I’m sure she would’ve wanted me to continue on with my life, so that’s why I, so yeah. But yeah, overall I enjoyed my first trip away.

23:00 Was an eye opener, things I saw I suppose, like in Indonesia. I mean even now, I mean people don’t really know how lucky we are, from then even up till today, and so-called from a civilised society that what we are. Guys that I knew, and this is back in, even in the 80’s and that, that I knew and how they

23:30 turn around and treat someone from a third world country. You know, it was a fun thing to get a five cent or a ten cent or a twenty cent coin and heat it up with a lighter and throw it into a group of kids, because they were begging for money. And to actually see em, you know, it was fun to them, to see these children burning their hands, you know, on the hot coin.

Who was throwing it in to them?

This is, you know, Australians.

24:00 These are guys who, that’s what I said, we are supposed to be from a civilised society. Yeah, I think that was one of my first impressions of how I thought, how well I knew my fellow mankind and that. Yeah, so I was, I suppose, that was probably one of the hardest things that I had to swallow. Mind you, I mean,

24:30 there was other guys with me that, you know, we found it upsetting. Yeah, so just verbally told us what we’d, told em what we thought of it and how far it’s gonna go before they gonna cross that line that we’ve drawn in the sand. Yeah, so...

And what about brothels and stuff, did the guys get into the brothels much going over there?

Suppose they did,

25:00 I mean, everyone’s human. This was my trip away and, you know, you had guys on there and it was almost a peer group thing. But my first place that’s, as I said, Indonesia, you were,

25:30 I don't know, I mean a third world country. I mean, the place we pulled into was Yujang. I mean we were told you couldn’t drink the water there because of malaria, and even if there was ice in it, you know, you wouldn’t take the ice because you know, ice was made from water, so it was, may be unhygienic and all that. And you didn’t,

26:00 you were wary about what you, if you ate anything, you had to make sure it was well cooked. So hygiene side of things you were worried about yeah, you know, visiting places of ill repute.

Yeah, we’ve heard a lot about, you know, brothel experiences from different conflict situations and military experience. Did they prepare you for, you know, did they give you VD [Venereal Disease]

26:30 classes?

Yeah, but I see a lot of it stemmed back to your own individual self, you know. They gave you your, passion ration was there if you needed it, but you know, it was open freely. Of course, they drummed it in to you before every... report and that what you went to. But yeah, I mean,

27:00 I suppose, well to me it wasn’t a big issue and all that.

And so did you have a brothel experience in that time?

The first time I went away overseas, no. No. Only I was how what you call a cherry boy, you know, first experience away overseas, you were too scared. You know, you heard of these big things about, you know. I don't know. I mean, to be truthful

27:30 I was more interested in the culture. Because here I was, I was visiting places where the people’s features were different from mine but their complexion was the same, but culturally they were same sort of culture, respect and that, you know. Yeah, so that’s

28:00 where I never, this is where I was coming from. I was looking at things culturally. I mean, it was great for me than rather to go on an organised tour, was to meet someone and be taken out and to go to places where, off the beaten track where a local’s taking you, not a tour operator.

So do you have a significant memory of that happening?

No, there’s no significant memories, because 28:30 questions I’ve been asked is, “Where’s your favourite place you’ve ever visited?” “What’s your favourite thing you’ve ever done?” As an individual my own thought, my own way of doing it is that, look I could walk out today and experience something new and something different, you know, and it’s a special place. Whether it be in the back of the garden or, you know, it’s an individual thing and really, I

29:00 couldn’t put say, this place is better than that place, and that, so.

What about people, do you remember any people that you actually met?

Oh yeah, I mean I couldn’t put the names down to em. I suppose, out of all, well one of the ones I thought in Malaysia, I suppose was, this is on another trip

29:30 years on, later on down to track, was to actually speak to a Malaysian who was Chinese background, and to hear how he’s treated within his own country. He’s treated the same way as what Aboriginals are treated in Australia and he’s a, you know, to find out he’s Chinese in a Malaysian country, and he’s born and bred in Malaysia, you know.

30:00 That was, on the political side, that was one of the interesting things that I’ve found. I mean, you know, you go to Noumea and speak to the Canucks there, how they’re treated by the French in their own country, you know, that was amazing.

What was the point of that first trip where you stopped at all those different places?

Showing the flag. We pulled into Beijing,

30:30 not Beijing sorry, Shanghai. I think the old significant thing about it was to go up to Shanghai. I remember when we were there it’s the first time Qantas ever flew into Beijing and opened up their office. So whether we were doing it there, it was, apart from political, I think it was more of a commercial reason, yeah, to show the flags. It was

31:00 also to, I think, assist the Americans and being their chaperone, when they came into China. Mind you, I mean it wasn’t all pleasure. I mean we had to work our way going up, as FIMA and all that we had to do, I think we done a couple of refits of ships, repair work or servicing of ships in, actually

31:30 Hong Kong. So being the repair ship, while we were there we looked after something like four or five ships, what any little thing that was broken down, we were there to repair it. And same thing happened again, not only in Hong Kong but also in Singapore, we were there to repair other ships that’d broken down. Yeah, I mean it

32:00 sounds so jolly and just going away overseas for four and a half months but you work your way. But even though I wasn’t, I was only as FIMA on board this ship, I think I was, it was relaxing for me because I wasn’t part of ship’s company and I didn’t have to do shift work on the ship. My day was, mine was an eight to five job, you know, I didn’t

32:30 have to, at night I still got my eight hours sleep, although occasionally I still had to do a... But that was my time on the Stalwart. Then when I joined other ships and that, you know, being a ship’s crew, four hours on, eight hours off, that’s the routine you work your way into.

What was the Stalwart like compared to the Melbourne?

Smaller, you only had four hundred and fifty people on there.

33:00 It was, all it was, was just a floating workshop. I went from say a ship, a mess of eighty-five down to forty-five, then down eventually to a mess of twenty-four, so it petered all the way down. Stalwart at that time was

33:30 what signify as a flag ship, where it had the gold star, because it was basically the elite of the elite ship. But it was also the flag ship in the way that the admiral, whatever, if we travelled overseas, the admiral will travel on the ship. And that was

34:00 yeah, so that was a major difference.

And you experienced quite a difficult time on the Stalwart with the accident. Can you tell us about that? We’ve heard about that before.

Oh, you’ve heard about it but I won’t go too much into it.

Can you give us a kind of basic idea of what happened there?

What happened there was, so that was in ‘84, ‘85 or could’ve been ‘86, I’m not too sure, it

34:30 plays up on me memory and that. It was, there was a gassing on board the ship where we had eighty- two of us were gassed, loss of a few lives and that, so, yeah, that’s about it in a nutshell.

And were you actually injured, part of the injured?

Yeah. Were you, because we talked to a nurse in that incident who was part of the group that were

35:00 on the shore when people were being airlifted. Were you airlifted back to shore?

Yes.

Horrible experience?

Yes. I’ll leave it at that.

Okay.

Hm-mmm. I mean if you wanna find more you go through the archives, but personal experience is nothing, I don’t want to... It’s one part of the…

35:30 I think that was the turning point in my career, in my whole entire life, so.

So after the accident then where did you go from there, I mean how long did it take you to recover and where did you go from there?

Never recovered. Never. After there...

Never recovered physically or emotionally did you mean?

Emotionally. Which has affected me physically.

36:00 No, after that I, after the Stalwart, yeah, I went to Nirimba to do phase train, yeah, phase two training. And that was at Nirimba which was a military training establishment at Quakers Hill in Sydney’s western suburbs. I think that was for a year and a bit,

36:30 not too sure. And that was just, so as I said, all through your… you were training, training, training, that was sort of the next… Phase two was the next stage of your training, was going up another phase, another level, another stage and training to do with your, whatever trade you’re going to come out with, so yeah, that was at Nirimba.

37:00 And what was significant about that time?

Nothing, there was nothing significant apart from just doing electrical, like, engineering training.

If you’d been kind of badly affected by an accident, it must be hard then to keep your career on track. What did you do to keep it on track?

Well, the thing is because of what the experience, what I experienced, I didn’t know till twelve years down the track why

37:30 loss of memory, retention, on how much it affected me. Yeah, it was a period where, I mean to get to that stage of where I was phase two, other guys took them a lot shorter period whereas it took me a longer time. And

38:00 yeah, it affect me in memory and all that, so.

So you were experiencing PTSD[Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder]?

That’s what I ended up with.

Was it diagnosed, when was that diagnosed for you?

Fourteen years later.

Yeah, we’ve heard that about other people that’ve experience PTSD. Yeah, it must’ve been in some ways a relief to finally have that diagnosed?

Relief, I think it was more of an anger. So I still got it.

38:30 Never get rid of it.

Did you, in nature, change at that time do you think, did you as a person?

I believe so, I believe so, yeah. Yeah, it changes. There’s still answers out there that one’s still searching for and still can’t find, but the other thing is, I mean the good side of it is that

39:00 there’s other guys out there a lot worse off than me, yeah.

From that same incident you mean?

Well no, not necessarily that. I mean from a negative to a positive. I mean what I, you know, what I ended up with. Because I work with, the other job I do is the Salvation Army as a support worker there. So what happened to me 39:30 negatively I turn around and put it positively down there and, you know, and seeing guys that, veterans, regardless of veterans, or itinerants out in the street, to be there for counselling, assist them out. And yeah, so like I said, whatever negative, there’s always a positive.

No, it’s fantastic to be able to turn it around, there’s a lot of people it really destroys them.

Yeah, yeah.

Have you seen, I mean you’d be able to relate a lot more to PTSD sufferers that you

40:00 come across?

Yeah, yeah. I do and also, I mean, but that’s one thing, you know, I never ever do is put my, push my experiences onto anyone else. You know, you’re there as, more than anything is to be a good listener than putting your experiences across, because that’s when, people who suffer, are suffering, or has problems

40:30 they’re looking for someone who’s got an ear to listen with the.

So did you find a good ear at that time?

No, no. No I didn’t and because, until I made, I had to find out why I was going through the problems. I mean, I was your typical one, I was the worst alcoholic you’d ever come across, you know, being a

41:00 binge drinker and always looking for answers. And alcohol destroyed a lot, until after I found out, when I was diagnosed, what’s it now, nine years and I haven’t touched alcohol, so. Because I’ve eventually found out why I was going through these emotions. Yeah, yeah.

41:30 So...

Okay, that’s the end...

Tape 5

00:32 So if we can go back a little bit to that incident, I don't know if... it would be very valuable for the archive if you could tell us a bit of a personal account of what happened, without obviously affecting...

Well, in what way it’d be valuable to the archive?

Well, because it was a significant event in Australia’s naval history, and it’s one thing to have it recorded

01:00 in a book and it’s another thing to have a personal account of what happened from your own personal point of view and what you personally experienced. But, you know, if you’re not comfortable talking about it, perhaps we could talk about how you reacted afterwards and what happened, you were talking about some of your problems that you had as a result of what happened.

Well, I suppose if anything you could only, because

01:30 what happened that night and the preceding years afterwards, it’s something that’s buried and it’s very emotional. What happened afterwards, I mean how far afterwards are you looking, years, months, days, hours?

Well, that’s up to you to, what you’re

02:00 comfortable telling us. We’re sort of interested in the whole story obviously. We’re interested in what you experienced and, both at the time and then immediately afterwards and in the years following, so anything that you’re willing to talk about.

Well, I mean, because it’s very hard to divulge in a way that... afterwards I mean, after

02:30 wards I could count right up until now and how it affects me now.

Well, what I mean is immediately afterwards then, perhaps. I mean you were obviously unwell for a period of time, you would have been... were you hospitalised?

Well, I mean, after the incident, kept overnight and that under observation.

03:00 Because, I mean, what happened on that night was sitting in a mess where we were, where I was staying and, you know, you have some strange smell comes through the air conditioning, and all it smelled like was someone had dropped their guts and that. And I, just after seven o'clock ‘cause

03:30 what we have rounds, inspections at night then through the place. And I walked out, went up and there was, over the intercom system, they’d said, “Safe guard.” That’s what were the engineering, one of the wood working shop, that someone was injured, and we initially thought someone had cut themselves. Went up to get some

04:00 fresh air to the front of the ship and came back down and there was, I was by meself, came back down and saw one of the other leading hands race up to what we have, a repair section base. Broke the glass and he grabbed the breathing apparatus, which I found rather stupid because he broke the glass to break in to get the breathing apparatus when there was, all he had to do

04:30 was just undo the lock and open the door, it wasn’t locked. And there was a spare one there so I grabbed the spare one to go down to where they were and got there and someone said, “Oh, get those people out.” I went down and there was an overpowering smell, like sewerage. All I could see from where I was to approximately twenty feet below me, was bodies laying down. So,

05:00 you know, grabbing those out, pulling those guys out and, you know, they’re your fellow work mates and all that. Yeah. To have a priest standing over the top of the blokes and that, giving them the last rites and that. And here you are trying to, you got the medical officer telling you to tell them that they are going to be alright, everything’s, medical assistance is there, and you got a

05:30 priest saying the last rites. So, you know, the best thing I ever seen was when the doctor turned around and told the priest to piss off, you know, because we’re there to preserve life not to... And I suppose, you know, the thing is when you, after that was over, I mean, going back up into the mess and, you know, guys are saying, “Oh such and such are

06:00 stupid for going down there,” you know, or “Dumb engineers,” and all that, so you had that going on. Then next morning to wake up to find out that one of the guys had died during the night. You go to do your work next day, only to find out if there’s a general consensus of whether we should continue our southeast Asian deployment or return. Then having,

06:30 I’d say, a percentage of the ship say, “No we don’t want to continue on.” But I wanted to continue on. Because as my own personal thing was, I just wanted to, I don't know, some people go to the gym to work out to get rid of it and that was my way of dealing with it, and the ship had turned around to head back to Darwin.

07:00 People were being medivaced [emergency medical evacuation] off there. Someone had said, “Okay,” over the piping system, “anyone that had strange experiences, feeling tingling in their fingers, nauseous or whatever to report to the sick bay.” Went up there and I was quite surprised by the amount of guys that were down on the ground laying down or sitting in the shades. And it was like

07:30 out of a movie with the helicopters there was, you know, just helicopters landing, taking off, landing, taking off, taking people, and so I was one of those guys who was taken to the hospital. And yeah, they took us to Darwin hospital, it was amazing what the pilots done, I mean

08:00 to land, something like about a hundred yards away from the hospital under the power lines. And obviously they weren’t taking any chances, we were given, put into ambulances, driven the hundred yards and, round about a hundred yards, and from there we were wheel-chaired into the hospital, and it was amazing. The hospital was over flowing because guys were even in maternity wards and that,

08:30 in corridors, everywhere. So it was given, we gave blood too, they tested the blood etcetera then they said for, as a further safety precaution they took us down to Larrakeyah Army Base and kept us overnight there. We were told not to have alcohol, and that

09:00 was all okay but some of the army guys felt sorry for us and snuck us in beers and that, but the guys, some guys drank some and I was the one who didn’t. And then they asked who wanted to contact their parents and that, or they wanted the navy to contact their parents or the individuals, and I said, “No, I prefer to do it on me own basis.” So I went down and rang up Mum and told her I was okay. Then

09:30 that was overnight, the next day we were taken back to the ship. When I got back to the ship I found out I was on duty, and one of my jobs was to put on breathing apparatus and carry a portable detector with me to go down and pump the offending fluid out. And

10:00 I’m think one of the most stupidest remarks that was made was, “Pump this poison out but make yourself inconspicuous.” And you had a hose that’s running, what was it, probably about two hundred feet or so, and the detective thing was to go along to see where, if there was any leaks, and this included going

10:30 up on the wharf to where it was actually going into the back of the truck. And to, you had people walking up and civilians walking up and down the wharf and here you are, breathing apparatus on, walking up and down, and they want you to be inconspicuous. The liquid was going, just going straight into the back of a truck, the truck driver was there, just a pair of shorts on, t-shirt and work boots, you know, so

11:00 whether he could smell anything, I don't know. But, we were sort of canvassed after that in a way, singled out to do an interview. Questions we were asked were, some we could give answers to, some we couldn’t, because we had 11:30 lawyers and everything there, for the legality side of things. But at that time, still feeling young, bullet proof, yeah, nothing could hurt me, I just thought it was just another thing in my life and, yeah. Only on through later years and that, that found out that there was... we weren’t even given the opportunity and, I mean, even right up until today, there was no such thing as crisis counselling

12:00 for guys that were involved in that era. And the only time we got counselling is when we took it off our own initiative. For me it was fourteen years later to go and see a psychologist and to find out what I’d been diagnosed with, ‘cause there was a lot of unanswered things that occurred in my emotions that I couldn’t understand. And yes, it did have a profound affect on me, I don't think it’s ever,

12:30 I’ll never ever get rid of it. I don’t say forcing it hard to suppress it, but I do find an occasion where I’ll find it a release to, as a release valve is to talk about it now and then. But more so to turn around and what occurred to me, is to help others, which is the greatest, more of a pressure relief than anything.

So there was no counselling

13:00 by the navy at all, at the time?

None. None whatsoever. Like I said, all it was is stay in port for another couple of days and choof off on our merry way.

Was there any discussion by your superiors about what had happened? I mean, any briefing of the crew to discuss what had happened?

In short,

13:30 only fleetingly, “There was just an accident,” you know, “Dry your eyes sunshine and continue on.” You know, so. I think what was so amazing was to find out, I didn’t know how many people were affected until later life I found out there was eighty-two, and for being one of the second person down there to rescue the blokes, to assist in getting them out, I would’ve counted probably about ten. But only to find out

14:00 there was eighty-two because this stuff was so lethal that guys that weren’t even anywhere near the scene, there were guys that were up on the upper deck, on the flight deck, that were another forty-odd foot above us, out on the open, that when the ventilation came out they got affected there, so yeah, it was quite traumatic.

At the time that

14:30 it was happening, did you know what had happened?

It was so surreal I thought it was an exercise, because you’re trained over a period of time to handle any type of situation, and at that stage gassing, we were never taught to handle gassing, to a really great extent. And you know, because

15:00 you had more, more emphasis is placed on fire and floods than, rather than gassing, no-one ever thought. Yeah, I mean, it was, things were happening. I think that’s where it made me question why, later on in life things like any strong powerful odours

15:30 what affected me, made me aware to check myself and the situation where I was. I wouldn’t panic but I’d just be more aware of where I was, to look to see where there’s an easy escape, an area to get out of. You know, I mean the only way I can describe it is sitting on aeroplanes, when the plane first starts off and

16:00 you get the smell of aviation fuel, you know, you’re in a confined space and that’s where, you know, I’m trying to think, why was this affecting me? This type of thing. Pull up at a service station to fill up your car, all of a sudden the fumes come up and hits you and you’re wondering why, why this... it’s almost like deja vu you go through.

16:30 Why does this occur? Why was I...? You know, I wasn’t trained to do these type of things. Yeah, so after that, and I mean later on in life this kept happening. I was having problems with the retention, of memory; I was finding studies and that very hard. Then I mean,

17:00 I can’t think, it was ‘90, could’ve been ‘94 to ‘95, somewhere round there, there was an incident with a patrol boat and that was in Newcastle harbour. It happened in… Things like, one of the sewerage pumps had gone down, sullage pump, and I was in an area of three

17:30 foot high by approximately six foot long by, no about four foot high, seven foot long at the longest place and about three foot wide, working in that. Very hot, no vent, hardly any ventilation. And I don't know if you’ve worked in

18:00 a sump, a grease trap, the smell, that was up so hot, grease trap smell, alone at night and this is about half past eleven at night, no-one else is awake. You’ve got to, because I was engineering, engineering personnel on watch, officer on watch, I had to have everything, make sure so that the ship’s ready to sail the 18:30 next day, so you’re under considerable amount of pressure. Yeah, and so basically after that, after a couple of day’s sailing back up to Cairns, this kept playing up on me mind and then dreams of what happened back in ‘84 kept coming back. And it was to the point that the only person, a crew of twenty- four, that I approached the captain and I said,

19:00 “Look, I think I need professional help.” Because I know within myself if I hadn’t of made that immediate step... Look, I was at the stage I didn’t care if anyone got hurt, and I knew I wouldn’t be the one who got hurt, you know. It just didn’t, I was just emotionless. I was just no feeling, I was numb. So I came back to Cairns, and thank God the doctor I saw

19:30 banned me from walking back from the ship, within a spate of fifteen minutes to leave the base, to get away from the base. Went and saw a psychologist and then it was, yeah, PSTD and you know, so I had to work through that. And I mean a period there where I had to sever all ties

20:00 with the uniform, to go away from the accommodation where I was staying out in Cairns here, which was a military accommodation. I moved out to Gordonvale with my sister and it was only her and I in the house, but I could not be in the house with her. So every time she was in the house there, just only her and I, I’d go down the back yard until she left to go to work and then that’s when I came back inside. But yeah, it was just,

20:30 I found it very hard, I had to come in for appointments to the psychologist. It was very hard to come into Cairns. Took me a matter of, I think, quite a while before I could feel safe driving a car because the pressure I was under. Thank God there was no bloody road rage about then. But yeah, so that was

21:00 cutting through that.

At the time that you decided, you said that you went to your senior...

Sisters. Oh no.

senior officer to say you needed help. What was it about what was happening with you that made you realise you needed help?

Like I said,

21:30 trying to sleep at night or anytime, regardless whether it was out at night or anytime of the day when I was by myself. It’s like watching a re-run of videos, the same tragedy that happened, replaying in your mind, in your mind. And yeah, so it was that and I think it was trying to communicate to people

22:00 that they should know what I’m thinking. And that’s where I found it hard is that I’d be doing something and I found it so... why would someone ask me such a stupid question. If I’m sitting down there reading a book and they come up to me and say, “What are you doing?” you know, I’d get angry and say, “How stupid are you, can’t you see I’m reading a book.” Or something like that. People should know, it was at that stage where people should know what I’m thinking, you know, than rather me,

22:30 “Just leave me alone, don’t come into my space.” My space had sort of expanded, I mean, on a patrol boat, your private space would be, oh, two and a half foot wide, probably about six foot long by two and a half foot high, and that was yours, which is ample, a lot. That was your private space that, because that was

23:00 the bed where you slept in and, you know, anyone could approach you, you know, they’d come right up to you anywhere outside that space and you wouldn’t, it wouldn’t affect you. But once you’re in that bed laying down with curtains drawn, it was, it was the right thing to do. If you’re in bed laying down with the curtains drawn, I’d come up and, you know, it may sound stupid, but I’d knock and say,

23:30 you know... You could be awake, I could see your lights on but I would ask if you’re awake, ‘cause that’s your private space, I don’t want to come into it. Then, like I said, with all these emotions and that going on, my private space sort of grew outwards, so from what I had four inches on either side of me, now became four foot, ten foot, you know, and I didn’t want anyone coming in to that.

And

24:00 how did you react to people who came into that personal space?

Irrationally, angry, you know, like after the first visit and they said, “Oh you’re suffering from depression.” I said, “I’m not depressed, I’m angry.” Until I found out about mental health, you know.

24:30 No, did you yourself, prior to having that diagnosis, did you link your problems to that incident years before?

No, no. What I was after is, wanted to know answers and why I kept seeing things in my mind. That, you know, five, ten years ago it’d happened, you know, why is this, why do I keep thinking about

25:00 that specific event. And yeah...

And you said earlier that you were drinking heavily as well. Yeah, it was peer group, I suppose, it was started off and then it was, you know, it was peer group, mainly because I mean you get paid fortnightly and it was, being a single bloke, hey. Staying on, I mean all my entire naval

25:30 career I’ve always stayed on military bases or in military things so, you know, even though I moved, came back to Cairns and I spent the stint up here, I always stayed in a military environment. I didn’t opt to get a flat or move to a relative’s place or anything like that, I’ve always, because I wanted that independence, I was independent, and being on the base itself. And so, you know, being young and stupid, pocket full of Oxford scholars [dollars], where

26:00 else to go on a Thursday night, be one of the boys, go out and lash out and so that, you know, it’s binge drinking on one night and then be broke for the next fortnight or so, so yeah.

And when you were receiving treatment, when you did go to that doctor and started receiving treatment, were you able to establish why that incident had had that impact on you?

26:30 I mean can you explain, or having had the time to reflect and the counselling you received and so forth, are you able to understand why, what it was that happened to you exactly, on an emotional and physical level that caused those symptoms?

No, just only what the explanation that was given to me.

And what was that explanation?

27:00 You know, there’s a lot of things, brain, how your brain operates, the cells, the chemicals and all that, and so, yeah.

I’d like to take you back if we can just to that night, I know it’s difficult for you to talk about, but you said that you were the second person to go down and actually to help rescue these people. Can you, are you able to tell us exactly what you did?

27:30 Look all I could say in short was go down, try and pick the people up, cannot breathe, then out again. I don’t want to be, go into the details of, the actual feelings, the emotion that was going through me.

No, I know, actually just I was interested in knowing what you had to physically deal with in terms of carrying these people out.

28:00 Where you had to take them from and where you had to take them to and how you carried them or how you...?

Well, I thought that would, you would assume that through the reflective in what I was saying about the incident in Newcastle harbour, the humidity, the heat, the noise, the smell. Hydrogen sulphide is a, you know, it comes

28:30 through the skin. Yeah, I, that’s… I mean all I, in the end we couldn’t physical, well we physically carried them out, that was by using fire hoses and all that, because we couldn’t go down, it was too heavy, too heavy to breathe, couldn’t. You know, it was x amount flight of stairs

29:00 and to get down the bottom you couldn’t even take a breath, it was just, the air was just, there was nothing to breathe. I mean it’s hard to sound but there was just nothing to breathe down there. To run back up, you know, like I said, up to twenty feet, expelling your air and not breathing in, it was, yeah.

I mean you did a remarkable

29:30 thing, you were part of assisting people to get out of that situation and undoubtedly helped people survive. Do you look back on it at all in that way; do you have any sense of having contributed to helping people that day?

I just think on that later in life, you know, a few of the enquiries and all that, for what I found out is it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

30:00 The way policies, procedures and all that were written, you know, how money played a big, major important... things like there were so many mitigating things that happened that, you know, trying to find out the truth later on only to have certain files, folders and papers disappear, nah, you know, I... I

30:30 think I’m just, I think that changed my, well it still has, I mean that’s a real sour taste in my mouth on how the one aspect, and how the military operates. So...

How soon after the incident did you start having some of those problems that you’ve talked about?

It’s pretty hard to put a date, very

31:00 hard to put a date.

Was just a gradual thing? A gradual thing. And, you know, if you put it on a, you know, it was like a scale. I didn’t even know these things were occurring, I did not even know. People from the outside could see it, but I couldn’t, I just thought it was a normality until it came to a point where then I noticed within

31:30 myself. No-one asked, no-one, you know, no-one, as I said, turned around and said to the captain, “I think I need professional help.” And exact words were, “Yes, I know you do, but I didn’t want to say it.” You know, which was, made me bond very close to my superiors and that, because if someone would’ve walked up and said, “Oh you got a problem, go and see it in a moment.” I mean it’s just like anything, you turn around and tell a person who’s got a drinking

32:00 problem, makes them dig their heels in, you know, so. If someone would’ve said that earlier to me, prior in life, I woulda yeah, no... I wouldn’t have made it this far, yeah.

So that captain recognised that you had a problem but he didn’t feel able to, to help you prior to that?

He was only steering me, I think, but he was, he was how would you say,

32:30 why I felt he, he was one guy that I felt approachable to. Maybe ‘cause of the fact that he was an exchange from another country, doing a service over here, and yeah, so I think he, that’s why I found it more approachable.

What, which vessel were you on at that time?

33:00 That was on the HMAS Gladstone. A patrol boat was that?

A patrol boat.

A patrol boat, okay. So can you tell us about the sort of treatment you then ultimately received to help you?

What was it? Just professional counselling and medication. And

33:30 yeah...

And did the medication have any side effects?

I don't know. I know that I didn’t want to be on it. Yeah, I’m not on the medication now but some days I feel that I should be on it and some days I don’t. Like I said, only way I can do it now is just through alternative therapy and that’s

34:00 talking about it and yeah, assisting others.

And you said that you really never recover from that, you still have that. In what sense do you still suffer from PTSD?

Got a very short fuse. Anxiety, I have anxiety attacks now and then.

34:30 Yeah, I suppose just anxiety.

Can you tell us what an anxiety attack is like for you?

When someone keeps asking you questions and you don’t want to go into that area.

Okay, sure. Okay, I certainly don’t want to bring on an anxiety attack. I know it’s just, yeah, we won’t talk about that any more, that’s fine. So can you tell us, you were on the patrol boats for a while, when you started receiving treatment

35:00 did you continue working on the patrol boats? Or you said that you had to have a period away where you had to leave the base and...?

Yeah, yeah, that was while I was under diagnosis. Oh, look I had fantastic periods on patrol boats and that, because Gladstone was my second patrol boat, the one prior to that was the Ipswich. The patrol boats, I mean from my first

35:30 ship of fifteen hundred, you know, fourteen hundred and fifty people, personnel, to, down to a patrol boat of twenty-four. Patrol boat really, I’d say, my experience, it really cemented into place, oh, many things. Workmanship, pride, professionalism.

36:00 On patrol boats, I had two families, the one on the patrol boat was basically family number one, then my own personal families, they were two, while I was away. Because on a patrol boat when you’re at sea you’re, you know, anything up to six months away or for, you know, the longest time at sea may be two or three weeks, but you knew the guys from the very top to down the very bottom.

36:30 You knew their emotional side, very family orientated. Because you knew their families as well when it came back, and the husbands and the wives all got together, everyone got together. But whatever, if you’re at sea, someone had a bereavement in the family, you felt it also because, you know, that’s when you found 37:00 your human side of things, because out there, you know, that’s where I found... And as for professionalism, a lot more professional. And that’s what I found out about patrol boats, you lived in, you lived out of each other’s pockets. And there, I mean that was,

37:30 people ask me about my service life and out there, because it was multicultural, you had so many different cultures. People of, even though they’re Australians but different backgrounds and that, ethnical backgrounds, you didn’t matter, you know, that was no matter, you didn’t care about that. Because, you know, and only recently as in years gone, come past, gone by,

38:00 the big emphasis is on homosexuality. Me, I’ve served with male and female and, you know, their sexual preference is up to them. I look at it this way, if ever I was in a situation where I’m in danger, I’ve needed someone to carry me out or pull me out of a place, I’m not gonna turn around and say, “Hey don’t touch me because you’re a female.” Or, “Don’t touch me

38:30 because…” You know, “I don’t like… you’re a homo.” “No way. Get me out of there.” You know, that’s the way I look at it and the other way I look at it is too that they may have the blood type that I need, you know, where I need it, so I’ve never judged anyone on that matter and I never will.

Can you tell us about the work that the Ipswich was doing?

The work that the Ipswich was doing is all patrol boats, you had the Australian fishing

39:00 zone, patrol the fishers. Australia was divided, oh it still is, divided up into areas in alphabetical sections, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way round. You were, like Cairns, you probably, you know, hypothetically, from the tip of Cape York down to Cairns was A, B, C, D, or something like that and down to Townsville E, F, G,

39:30 all the way down to Brisbane. But say from here to Brisbane you may have A to D, you know, broken up into four sections. Your task was to go out and patrol as far as our border line, and people were chased, looking for foreign fishing vessels, illegal operations, how would you say, like a police

40:00 car doing a cruise through the suburbs. You’re out there, not only were you checking on foreign fishing vessels, you may even have to check to see if trawlers had a licence, you know, they were, their licence were up to date and that. And what I mean, showing the flag was, if you’re a prawn trawler, you’re a fisher, skipper out there or just your basic cruiser, you know, you’re paying taxpayer’s

40:30 money, you’re paying, you know, you’re handling tax payer’s money, you’re being employed as a tax payer. I think you’re, it’s good to see that there’s someone out there, out and about that you, you know, not just as stereo type things, what all sailors do, so...

Oh...

Tape 6

00:31 and how that came about, did you join the Salvos as a religion?

No.

No.

No, when I moved back up to Cairns here, I mean, I was out and open to do anything. Approached quite a few agencies with me resume and all that and seeing that I had a bit to do with, in the alcohol, because when I was in the service I done a course in

01:00 alcohol awareness and all that. And as alcohol, drugs and program adviser, that was sort of opening up the door. Then I got, actually the Salvos were one of the first ones to take me in as a casual worker, and now classify myself as a permanent casual, so that was my, basically the first paying job when I got back to Cairns.

01:30 I mean with that it’s, I suppose it’s, as I remarked earlier about stereotyping, it’s, I suppose come across it so many times in my life, in the way that, with their job, I mean how they stereotype and that, and the place that I was, that I assisted at, that I help, is assisted support

02:00 worker, is to managing the men’s hostel. And you got people from all walks of life coming in there and everyone stereotypes, thinks it’s all to do with drugs and alcohol, when it’s not. So they, I get in there, listen to people, gentlemen, even ladies and that ringing up. And it’s, I

02:30 suppose, it’s somewhat similar to military down there in a way that these guys, whatever people may think of em, they don’t look at you whether you’re black or white, that you’re a male, you’re in that area. And so, I mean it was, while I was down there, is that even moving back to Cairns

03:00 there’s, I found quite a percentage of personnel, ex military in the Salvation Army. And I know from my own private experience, personal experience, is that some of these, you fall into a crack, everyone just steps over you and these are what the guys are down there, ex military personnel, the people have,

03:30 you know, your use by date, gone, you’re not worth it anymore. But some of these guys are there because of what occurred in the military, for instance, post traumatic, disabilities, they’ve been overlooked. And this is where I thought, hey, only as I’ve recently in the last year and a half is now that

04:00 I became more proactive in hopefully getting something up to assisting them. And I suppose that’s how you, in the long run, how you got a hold of me was because I put me hand up and decided to say, “Hey...” You know, I’ve often met guys there, you know, eighty, late eighties and some of the things they can tell you, and how they’ve, their personal

04:30 life experiences and all that, and not by going into, going there as they told me about it. The thing, the key was, what opened the door was the fact that to... how to explain, to see the change in someone when you’re just talking to them, it may be subtle as just saying, “Oh…”

05:00 The conversation could be just about the weather, but it’s how you talk about the weather or about the environment around you. Some of the military slang that you, that I sometimes let out of that, these guys pick it up and also it’s the same thing, they may drop a military slang and then word gets around, you know. Like the gentleman down there, like in his eighties,

05:30 he questioned me, or you know, military background, then I found out that he was, you know, he fought up in Borneo and all that and he’s one of the guys that’s fallen between the cracks. And the thing was, he opened up to me and just being that, didn’t question him, just having that ear there, because

06:00 even though there’s, you know, fifty, sixty-odd years between the service that I served between his time and my time, because I wore a uniform and because I was in the military, was my key to getting talking to him, and he was in the army, I was in the navy. There’s other guys I met there who served in Vietnam,

06:30 you know, we could sit down and have a great conversation. Even though that there was, they may have served twenty or thirty years earlier to me, but the fact is that bond of that military background that help binds us together. Because we’ve been, the discipline that we’ve received and the training, just the comradeship,

07:00 working together, yeah. And yeah, so I mean from there, yeah hopefully I can make a bit of a dent in establishing, getting something up. And I’ve got a mentor in Mackay actually, they’ve got a veterans, supporting veterans down there and I’m endeavouring to get something up here and started. And so the president there who started off down there, he’s my

07:30 mentor and so I’m hopefully getting something up here running.

And there’s a whole lot of emotional repercussions that came out of your experiences. Did the, I know you can’t go into too much details, but did the legal outcome for you, was that satisfying, the process and the outcome?

The legal outcome... no.

08:00 No, because it left more questions unanswered. No, it...

And I imagine it was a long process was it?

It was a long process, it was a gruelling process. I mean it was long but it was short. I don't know, I mean I think the most simplest way, if I was, if something would’ve been done in the counselling within

08:30 the first forty-eight hours, or when it first happened, maybe my outlook on the military now would be different rather than what it is now. But, I mean, the changes I seen on the military I suppose, like I said, I wish I could say I’m from the old school but a lot has changed over the years in the way of

09:00 many things. The retirement fund and all that, that’s changed, years of being caught up in service, that’s changed, so there’s a lot of changes. All I can say is on the navy side of things, everything, you know, everyone’s treated in cotton wool, you know, so soft now. I mean when I came through

09:30 it wasn’t as harsh but now looking back on it, today it’s, everyone’s treated in cotton wool. So, but look it wasn’t, it wasn’t a person who was wearing a uniform that left me with a sour taste, it’s a bureaucrat in Canberra. Maybe if they look after

10:00 their military personnel a lot better rather than look at the budget, cost cutting here and there, that’s only, I only wish that in time they do that.

Were there other people that went through the legal process with you?

Yeah.

So it was a sort of class action?

Some of it was class, some of it wasn’t. But yeah, there was a lot of,

10:30 oh it wasn’t a full class action. Yeah, I mean, there’s still guys now, and that’s what I mean, I mean my story’s only short compared to guys that are still seeking compensation from the Voyager, you know, when is the government going to wake up and... There’s other things like the Voyager, you got the [HMAS] Westralia fire, you

11:00 got the Black Hawk helicopters that went down. So yeah, nothing irks me more than when if I read in the paper on how Joe Blow’s never seen, let alone smelled boot polish, to turn around and criticise personnel in the services for seeking compensation, when they haven’t even been there, don’t even know what we’ve been through. I mean that’s what, also apart from the,

11:30 what I got from the post traumatic, I mean people, that’s one of the other thing, people turn around and say, “Yeah, but you weren’t in the war. You didn’t see this or that, you didn’t see blood and you didn’t see guts and gore, you know, you didn’t see atrocities.” But how do you put, from you know, say for instance what’s happening in Afghanistan, children and all that.

12:00 It’s the individual and how they rate it in their mind and what’s gore and guts, I mean. You know, the emotions what I went through on that night and pulling those guys out, you know, I can’t put it down and said, “Oh that’s a rating of nine against an ambulance or a fire, an ambulance officer going to a very bad smash up.” He’d say, “Oh mate, that’s nothing compared to what I saw.” You can’t, it’s the individual that experiences it, and that’s where...

Yeah, I think in that compressed

12:30 amount of time you experienced something quite traumatic. And even being, I imagine even being air lifted was quite traumatic was it?

Exactly. I mean...

You were air lifted on a stretcher, or you were...?

No, no, I walked and I mean it’s something so basically simple. I mean, for what I went through, am I gonna say it’s a lot worse off than a woman giving child to a birth, you know... birth to a child, you know. What’s traumatic, what’s more traumatic. It’s to me at that time, the

13:00 way I felt and how it affected me. Then, this is where, I think where the bureaucrats, that’s the way how I see how they rate things, you know. I found it was a joke, I mean I remember about, oh well over ten year, twelve year ago we had a politician riding a push bike and he fell off and got thirty thousand dollars compensation, you know, just for falling off a push bike,

13:30 the stress that it caused him. And you know, that was over, that was settled within a period of six month. And you got guys like on the Voyager and on the Melbourne, you know, well over thirty-odd years and they not even got that, it’s amazing, and they’re still fighting, so. Yeah, things like in Vietnam you had the agent orange, now what’s that done, what ...

14:00 I mean guys who, one day they’re out there dodging bullets and then all of a sudden they’re on a plane back into Australia, walking down Bondi Beach. No-one’s ever took them through counselling school, you know, broken them down through the barrier and all that, so yeah.

But as far as you’re concerned, is it settled and finished for you?

No, it’s only the beginning in the way of not suffering, but to fight for other guys that’s out there. And

14:30 you know, for better treatment, and that’s what I say, there’s, I, you know, may be of assistance with... not the assistance but yeah, the more information I get from DVA [Department of Veteran Affairs] because there’s guys out there, even in our penal system that’ve suffered through post traumatic, the people turn around, stereo type, and think, “Oh, just another alcoholic

15:00 out there. Throw him in jail.” And these are indigenous and non-indigenous. These are guys that are overlooked, you know, not to know that this guy’s in there because of issues that through service life had affected them.

When you’re doing your caring work now, do you feel a particular affinity with indigenous ex pats?

Well...

Sorry, not ex pats.

yeah, right.

Vets, vets.

15:30 Well, I suppose, look, put it this way, as an affinity, well I really, I can give you, where I grew up in Earlville, a suburb of Cairns here, and that would’ve been about say, two miles square, out of that what I can know rightly off,

16:00 we had five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, close to twenty in that suburb that joined up. Out of that twenty we had five in one street, personnel, three in one house that joined up to the military. Across the road I had... the three of us three brothers. Across the road we had 16:30 one lad there, over the back fence we had two brothers, and these were in, non-indigenous. But when it came down to a nutshell and when you looked around, there’s a very, very high percentage of indigenous personnel had joined up and served in the military. And I mean if you can only look back just recently that, you know, recognition’s been shown that what they’ve done

17:00 in the way of medal. There’s still families out there that, back through the dark ages where they weren’t being paid, you know, they were just only given tokenism, so, you know, if there’s justice out there I’d like to see that they receive compensation or something from that. You know,

17:30 but that’s only on the, I mean just in the Cairns area alone, basically over at Yarrabah, the Aboriginal community over the other side, forty-five kilometres away, their contribution in all theatres of war’s just unbelievable. Off hand there’d be about a dozen that’d

18:00 served, you know, through, from Vietnam right up to present day. There’d be still a good dozen that’s, you know, still going. The Torres Strait Islands, they’ve contributed a lot, Cairns alone you know, there’s about another dozen I could say that’s around here. But because why I’d like these

18:30 to assist there, because a lot of these have gone back to remote communities and that, and these are areas where DVA does not get, Veteran’s Affair don’t get. Where I do have the opportunity of travelling to this place as a project officer, collecting data for a database for a thing, and I get to meet these guys. And these are the guys that, you know, I don’t want to talk ill, but I mean the thing is it’s the same as the Salvation Army,

19:00 these are the guys where the RSL [Returned and Services League] don’t get to meet, you know. These are guys where, that walks in through the doors at the Salvation Army, accepts them as a human being, regardless of what they’re wearing. These same guys try and walk in through the doors at the RSL, “Sorry, you’re inappropriately dressed,” you know.

19:30 “You’re dressed below standards.” These are the same guys who’ve turned around and put this country where it is, and so yeah, this is where I’d like to get in and help these blokes out where I can or be there for them.

So yeah, so when you were, just to back track a little bit to finish off your story about the patrolling, leading up to your discharging from the navy altogether, you did have a couple of incidences on the

20:00 patrol, did you find a boat at one stage that was...?

Oh yeah, I mean you’re always out there, you’re always come across a foreign fishing vessels and all that. It’s amazing, you know, to go across, I mean one of the first incidents I came in contact with a foreign fishing vessel, my role that was on the Ipswich was to,

20:30 we caught this patrol boat, ah this foreign fishing boat just up in the gulf, Gulf of Carpentaria. We towed it all the way back to Thursday Island and my job was to go across and to disable it so that it couldn’t move, but the engines could still run because still needed power and that to pump out the bilges, the water,

21:00 to keep her afloat. Going across there, I mean, you hear so many stories and that but it was unbelievable, you know. How we turn around and say, “Oh the stench,” and that was only because, you know, drying out shark fins and all that. But, and the condition on these boats, I mean that thing was about thirty-odd foot long and about, it looked about eight foot wide.

21:30 So it was only very thin and so flimsy, where I wouldn’t, they wouldn’t even make Australian standards in safety. But these guys out there, what they had to operate with, to see their machinery, yeah, so I went down there and all I did was disable the gear box so that they couldn’t put it into gear and that, to move the boat. Yeah, so we had to,

22:00 like we kept watch on em until fisheries came along. I mean fisheries were already involved, but customs and that until at that time when they were officially handed over to the authorities. But apart from foreign fishing vessels, I mean you’re out there, you’re also working in conjunction with the federal police. You do covert operations with the army...

22:30 What sort of covert operations?

Well the army, the army, we’d take the army and just drop em off coast lines and that. And whether it’s part of their training or orienteering course or whatever, they’d make their way back to wherever they have to be. When you’re out there, when you do go out on a, say doing the zones and that, you’re given a brief by customs or by federal police or state police,

23:00 you’re given a dossier of what boats that are being watched for whatever activities, be it illegal drugs or whatever, so that we do not damage their investigation. We’ll just sort of shadow and just make a radio report to say, yeah, that that ship’s heading in that direction or that sailing

23:30 boat’s heading in that direction, because we don’t want to compromise whatever federal police or yeah, whatever activities. So you’re given that, so you’re out there doing that, yeah, just like I say, showing the flag, letting people know that we’re out there about...

Under what circumstances would you approach a vessel?

Well, if they’re foreign fishing boats that don’t

24:00 identify themselves, if a boat’s not showing their registration. Or we have, say, you know, you’re working, when we’re doing up around the, for instance the northern end of Australia here, round the Torres Strait, you normally have on board with you, fisheries, a federal police officer, because we have a lot of drug running and,

24:30 drug and arms deals through the islands and all that, so you’re along with them, have them along.

Did you ever see an arms bust or anything like that?

No. No, but I know some of my action has led to some, you know, being out there and about. You know, in a twelve foot boat the five of us in a boat, just outside of one of the islands up

25:00 there that, we knew it was a drug runner because the size of the boat he was in and the size of the engine he had on the back, only meant for fast speeds. We turned around and he took off like a bullet, and the moment... ‘cause he saw us and he panicked and we knew, that was... And the funny thing about it was a month and a half later the federal police that was with us had

25:30 said, they collared him and I said, “How’s that?” And they said well, they picked him up on some minuscule charge and everything, but they had an under copper, under cover in the prison with him and he told em the story on how he got away from the navy, and it was us. So, ‘cause we reported everything and yeah, he was busted, big time. So, you know, you do have some fun and that out there.

26:00 The other, yeah well the other thing is, I mean like you, out there, fishing boats, you know, things is, at the time, from here to Brisbane I think we boarded something like about seventy-five long liners, and that was only the tip of the iceberg. Because when the tuna season starts

26:30 it’s amazing. I mean you do a hell of a lot of work out there when it really, when it really, in a fishing season, but then you also have the season where you have, you can expect a lot of foreign fishing boats in. I think immigration now has, migrants and all that, illegal immigrants has, that’s really tapered right off.

27:00 But yeah, I think, you know, that also made me so, apart from like I say the comradeship, but also as we used to emphasise that we were the work, work boats, you know, we’re not a show boat we’re a work boat. So in the end our thing was the big ships were the show boats, we were the work boats and that’s where there’s always that friendly rivalry.

27:30 So you liked that work?

Oh yeah, I liked it.

And how did you come to leave the navy?

After what happened to me, post-traumatic, things had changed so much emotionally and also physically in the way that I ended up with, I don't know,

28:00 they say there’s no ties there, but I ended up with diabetics because of the emotional stress and all that and my changing, eating lifestyle and everything.

Is that insulin dependent or just diet change?

No, it was diet change, I was type two. But since I’ve left type two I’ve actually put myself on, into insulin now because I’ve only, going by medical advice, what I’ve heard,

28:30 read and listen and that, was that to, it’s best to be on insulin early as possible so that you don’t suffer anything later on in life. And see when, with the diabetic side of things, it really, and for whatever occurred from the post traumatic, really affected my chance in promotion and that like. And that was really a sad taste in my mouth, bad taste because guys that I

29:00 taught were now in charge of me. You know, and that’s what I said, no, I just didn’t want to have anything that was a… Like that was I suppose, one of the things, I’m a proud person, and for what I know, what I accumulated for all my experiences and all that, I couldn’t climb that ladder. And I mean I could’ve fought it and

29:30 stayed in, you know, right up until the present date, but I’ve got my pride to think of. So no, I said, “No, I’ve...” you know. I was, I had people there who wanted to fight for me to stay in, but emotionally I was, how would you say, I was beaten, I was punch drunk, I couldn’t take any more hits,

30:00 because I just fought as long as I could to stay in. Even then I had to fight very hard to stay in and I think I do communicate with a lot of ex sailors, ex friends and that. I mean, when I was coming through, a guy who’d served twenty years, the respect and that, that he got after, you know, not necessarily saying the golden hand

30:30 shake, but when I left all I got for twenty year’s service was a piece of paper to say this is what the years you’ve done. From my so-called colleagues at that time, what I got was, what was it, a glass decanter, a mug, that was rapidly bought that morning up at a gift shop

31:00 and just engraved with my name. And I thought... yeah. I just left it at that. Took it home and Mum asked me. I said, “Oh this is what I got.” And she said, “Oh, that’s great,” and all that. And I said, “Well you better take it before I smash it,” you know. My service medals and all that, for my twenty-year service,

31:30 it took me a long time to pick that up again ‘cause I took it home to Mum and I said either she holds it or, “I’ll flatten it out with a hammer.” So, that’s how much I, as I was treated in the last year and a bit, two years, before I left. So...

So you don’t really have good feelings about the navy now?

Just the last couple of years before my discharge was the darkest,

32:00 but for the guys that I’ve served with, that I’ve got to know, hey, I’ll serve with them any time, any place, any where. Just what I said, it’s what the bureaucrats in Canberra made of it. So that’s a, yeah, so that’s where I’ve lost, you know, they weren’t looking after the boys.

Do you dream about your experience s

32:30 in the navy, particularly that horrible night?

Once in a blue moon if that, I don’t keep count of it because if I do I’ll just jump up in the morning, go for a walk and that and just forget all about it.

Do you talk to your wife about that stuff?

As a matter of fact, I rang her up today and she was quite surprised, at lunch time she said, “Three hours...” She’d be lucky to get, hold

33:00 me down one spot for twenty minutes let alone, so she’s...

We’re terrible people like that.

Well, I told her, I said, “Look you can watch the video afterwards if you wanted to.” And so she threatened me that if she’s ever gotta do a film and tell about her life story she’ll not disclose anything to me. Yeah no, it’s a, look, I think more’s been said at this

33:30 interview than what I’ve ever... Oh no, I tell a lie, the only time I open up more is that when I’m in a class room environment where it’s one on one, talking to people, but then it’s under a, you know, it’s therapy for myself and for them. My own personal life, my family don’t know what I’ve been through.

34:00 The wife, no, all she knows is just what’s, or what I think, I’ll only tell her so much. But I mean, what a big plus is for the, for Veterans Affairs is one of their videos they brought out, ‘You’re no longer in the forces now.’ And till I watched that about a couple of months ago, and yeah,

34:30 it’s very fantastic. I wish a lot of Vietnam, oh, a lot of veterans view it because it does, it opens up a lotta...

It was a hard adjustment to be out of the, I mean, in some ways I suppose, good for you to be away from it but a hard adjustment after twenty years, to be a civvy?

Look it’s, I’ve been out now for just over, what is it, three years, or going on to three years. You never, you’ll

35:00 never, you’ll never get over it because you’re still assimilating to outside life, to civilian life. There’s still things that still stick with you, regiment, regimental being with you, time, dress standards, your codes. You’ll never, because it’s so ingrained in you, you know, it’s not like a bit of dirt that you can wash off after, it’s not, it’s there, it’s stuck in you.

35:30 And that’s what I found out, even like when I was, remarked earlier about this gentleman who was eighty year old. You know, he’s, the pride he’s still got in the way, of the way his dress, his mannerism, how he conducts himself. Not only him but there may be other guys there, their dress standards, you may think of them as just an itinerant, homeless and

36:00 you know, just alcohol, alcoholic. But once you start getting the old polish on it, you’d be surprised on how shiny it is underneath, you know.

What makes you happy now?

What makes me happy now? Assisting or helping where I can, other people, especially in a way of veterans or that. But people said 36:30 to me, “Well why don’t you get out there and canvass the area in promoting the military and getting, you know, act as a peer to all young indigenous and all that,” whatever. No, I won’t, I will not. I won’t, I won’t. I mean once they was there I’d say, “Yeah.” I’d get out there and yeah, “Join up is the best thing and that for you.” But no, I won’t do that now.

37:00 Not because of what the military’s done to me but I sort of got wiser and said, you know, hey look, if I put my car in for a service and someone puts a sticker on the back and say, ‘Come to Joe Blows.’ If they don’t give me a discount I won’t advertise em, I’ll rip it off. The navy hasn’t given me a discount so I’ve taken off that sticker and I won’t promote them, so yeah.

37:30 Well you’ve told us an enormous amount of stories and really difficult stuff that you probably haven’t talked about in as much detail, particularly with a camera in front of you. Do you have a final comment about your career or work life? Or life, that you want, might want for future generations to hear?

Oh future generations. I don't know, ask me that in about a hundred and twenty years time.

Well we appreciate

38:00 your talking to us today, it’s been a pleasure and I know difficult, but certainly valuable for us, so thank you.

Okay, no problems. You haven’t seen the bill yet.

INTERVIEW ENDS