Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 on the offensive against terrorists with the to protect our country and build a better goal of total victory and peace for our chil- world beyond terror. We’ll encourage lib- dren and our grandchildren. I’m running erty here at home to spread prosperity and for President to keep this economy moving opportunity to every part of this land. I’m so every worker has a good job and quality going to carry this message to my fellow health care and a secure retirement. I’m citizens in these closing days of this cam- running for President to make our strong paign. I’m looking forward to it, and with Nation a more compassionate society where your help, we’ll carry Wisconsin and win no one is left out, because I believe every- a great victory on November the 2d. body counts and everybody matters. Thank you all for coming. I’m glad you’re I have a hopeful vision—I have a opti- here. God bless. Thank you all. mistic vision about this country. You would have one too if you’ve seen what I’ve seen. NOTE: The President spoke at 3:19 p.m. at I’ve seen the spirit of America under good Marathon Park. In his remarks, he referred times and bad times. I’ve seen the great to television talk show host Jay Leno; John character of this Nation rise up to help Gard, speaker, Wisconsin State Assembly; a fellow citizen who hurts. I’ve seen strang- Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker; ers put their arms around another person Mayor James E. Tipple of Wausau, WI; and say, ‘‘I love you, brother.’’ ‘‘I love you, former Representative Scott L. Klug of Wis- sister. What can I do to help you?’’ consin; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of I believe this young century will be lib- Japan; and Prime Minister Tony Blair of the erty’s century. We’ll promote liberty abroad United Kingdom.

Presidential Debate in St. Louis, Missouri October 8, 2004

Charles Gibson. Good evening from the of the President; the other they’d like to Field House at Washington University in ask the Senator. I have selected the ques- St. Louis. I’m Charles Gibson of ABC tions to be asked and the order. No one News and ‘‘Good Morning America.’’ I wel- has seen the final list of questions but come you to the second of the 2004 Presi- me—certainly not the candidates. No audi- dential debates between President George ence member knows if he or she will be W. Bush, the Republican nominee, and called upon. Audience microphones will be Senator John Kerry, the Democratic nomi- turned off after a question is asked. nee. The debates are sponsored by the Audience members will address their Commission on Presidential Debates. question to a specific candidate. He’ll have Tonight’s format is going to be a bit dif- 2 minutes to answer. The other candidate ferent. We have assembled a townhall will have a minute and a half for rebuttal. meeting. We’re in the ‘‘Show Me’’ State, And I have the option of extending discus- as everyone knows Missouri to be, so Mis- sion for 1 minute, to be divided equally souri residents will ask the questions, these between the two men. All subjects are open 140 citizens who were identified by the for discussion. And you probably know the Gallup Organization as not yet committed light system by now, green light at 30 sec- in this election. Now, earlier today each onds, yellow at 15, red at 5, and flashing audience member gave me two questions red means you’re done. Those are the can- on cards like this: One they’d like to ask didates’ rules. I will hold the candidates

2395 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 to the time limits forcefully, but politely, mind. I haven’t changed my mind. I’m I hope. going to fully fund it. So these are the And now please join me in welcoming, differences. with great respect, President Bush and Sen- Now, the President has presided over the ator Kerry. economy where we’ve lost 1.6 million jobs, Gentlemen, to the business at hand. The the first President in 72 years to lose jobs. first question is for Senator Kerry, and it I have a plan to put people back to work. will come from Cheryl Otis, who is right That’s not wishy-washy. I’m going to close behind me. the loopholes that actually encourage com- panies to go overseas. The President wants Consistent Leadership to keep them open. I think I’m right. I Cheryl Otis. Senator Kerry, after talking think he’s wrong. to several coworkers and family and friends, I’m going to give you a tax cut. The I asked the ones who said they were not President gave—the top one percent of in- voting for you, why. They said that you come earners in America got $89 billion were too wishy-washy. Do you have a reply last year, more than the 80 percent of peo- for them? ple who earn $100,000 or less all put to- Senator John F. Kerry. Yes, I certainly gether. I think that’s wrong. That’s not do. [Laughter] But let me just first, Cheryl, wishy-washy, and that’s what I’m fighting if you will, I want to thank Charlie for for—you. moderating. I want to thank Washington Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and University for hosting us here this evening. a half. Mr. President, it’s good to be with you President Bush. Charlie, thank you, and again this evening, sir. thank our panelists. Senator, thank you. I Cheryl, the President didn’t find weapons can—and thanks, Washington U. as well. of mass destruction in Iraq, so he’s really I can see why people at your workplace turned his campaign into a weapon of mass think he changes positions a lot, because deception. And the result is that you’ve he does. He said he voted for the $87 been bombarded with advertisements sug- billion and—or voted against it right before gesting that I’ve changed a position on this he voted for it. And that sends a confusing or that or the other. Now, the three things signal to people. He said he thought Sad- they try to say I’ve changed position on dam Hussein was a grave threat and now are the PATRIOT Act—I haven’t. I support said it was a mistake to remove Saddam it. I just don’t like the way John Ashcroft Hussein from power. No, I can see why has applied it. And we’re going to change people think that he changes position quite a few things. The chairman of the Repub- often, because he does. lican Party thinks we ought to change a You know, for a while, he was a strong few things. supporter of getting rid of Saddam Hussein. No Child Left Behind Act—I voted for He saw the wisdom, until the Democratic it. I support it. I support the goals. But primary came along and Howard Dean, the the President has underfunded it by $28 antiwar candidate, began to gain on him. billion. Right here in St. Louis, you’ve laid And he changed positions. I don’t see how off 350 teachers. You’re 150—excuse me, you can lead this country in a time of war, I think it’s a little more—about $100 mil- in a time of uncertainty, if you change your lion shy of what you ought to be under mind because of politics. the No Child Left Behind Act to help your He just brought up the tax cut. You re- education system here. So I complain about member, we increased that child credit by that. I’ve argued that we should fully fund $1000, reduced the marriage penalty, cre- it. The President says I’ve changed my ated a 10-percent tax bracket for the lower

2396 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 income Americans—that’s right at the mid- power, and Al Qaida no longer has a place dle class. He voted against it, and yet he to plan. tells you he’s for a middle-class tax cut. And I saw a unique threat in Saddam It’s—you’ve got to be consistent when Hussein, as did my opponent, because we you’re the President. There’s a lot of pres- thought he had weapons of mass destruc- sures, and you’ve got to be firm and con- tion. And the unique threat was that he sistent. could give weapons of mass destruction to Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, I would fol- an organization like Al Qaida, and the harm low up, but we have a series of questions they inflicted on us with airplanes would on Iraq, and so I will turn to the next be multiplied greatly by weapons of mass questioner. The question for President destruction. And that was a serious, serious Bush, and the questioner is Robin Dahle. threat. So I tried diplomacy. I went to the Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction United Nations. But as we learned in the Robin Dahle. Mr. President—— same report I quoted, Saddam Hussein was Mr. Gibson. Can you get a microphone, gaming the Oil for Food Programme to Robin, I’m sorry. get rid of sanctions. He was trying to get Mr. Dahle. Mr. President, yesterday in rid of sanctions for a reason. He wanted a statement you admitted that Iraq did not to restart his weapons programs. have weapons of mass destruction but justi- We all thought there was weapons there, fied the invasion by stating, I quote, ‘‘He Robin. My opponent thought there was retained the knowledge, the materials, the weapons there. That’s why he called him means, and the intent to produce weapons a grave threat. I wasn’t happy when we of mass destruction and could have passed found out there wasn’t weapons, and we’ve this knowledge to our terrorist enemies.’’ got an intelligence group together to figure Do you sincerely believe this to be a rea- out why. But Saddam Hussein was a sonable justification for invasion when this unique threat, and the world is better off statement applies to so many other coun- without him in power. And my opponent’s tries, including North Korea? plans lead me to conclude that Saddam President Bush. Each situation is dif- Hussein would still be in power and the ferent, Robin. And obviously, we hope that world would be more dangerous. diplomacy works before you ever use force. Thank you, sir. The hardest decision a President makes is Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and ever to use force. a half. After 9/11, we had to look at the world Senator Kerry. Robin, I’m going to an- differently. After 9/11, we had to recognize swer your question. I’m also going to talk— that when we saw a threat, we must take respond to what you asked, Cheryl, at the it seriously before it comes to hurt us. In same time. the old days, we’d see a threat, and we The world is more dangerous today. The could deal with it if we felt like it or not. world is more dangerous today because the But 9/11 changed it all. President didn’t make the right judgments. I vowed to our countrymen that I would Now, the President wishes that I had do everything I could to protect the Amer- changed my mind. He wants you to believe ican people. That’s why we’re bringing Al that, because he can’t come here and tell Qaida to justice. Seventy-five percent of you that he’s created new jobs for America. them have been brought to justice. That’s He’s lost jobs. He can’t come here and why I said to Afghanistan, ‘‘If you harbor tell you that he’s created health care for a terrorist, you’re just as guilty as the ter- Americans because one-point—what, we’ve rorist.’’ And the Taliban is no longer in got 5 million Americans who have lost their

2397 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 health care, 96,000 of them right here in were not working. The United Nations was Missouri. He can’t come here and tell you not effective at removing Saddam Hussein. that he’s left no child behind because he Mr. Gibson. Senator? didn’t fund No Child Left Behind. Senator Kerry. The goal of the sanctions So what does he do? He’s trying to attack was not to remove Saddam Hussein. It was me. He wants you to believe that I can’t to remove the weapons of mass destruction. be President, and he’s trying to make you And Mr. President, just yesterday the believe it because he wants you to think Duelfer report told you and the whole I change my mind. world they worked. He didn’t have weapons Well, let me tell you straight up, I’ve of mass destruction, Mr. President. That never changed my mind about Iraq. I do was the objective. And if we had used believe Saddam Hussein was a threat. I smart diplomacy, we could have saved $200 always believed he was a threat—believed billion and an invasion of Iraq, and right it in 1998 when Clinton was President. I now Usama bin Laden might be in jail or wanted to give Clinton the power to use dead. That’s the war against terror. force if necessary. But I would have used Mr. Gibson. We’re going to have another that force wisely. I would have used that question now on the subject of Iraq. And authority wisely, not rushed to war without I’m just going to turn to Anthony Baldi a plan to win the peace. I would have with a question for Senator Kerry. brought our allies to our side. I would have Mr. Baldi. fought to make certain our troops had ev- Iraq/War on Terror erybody possible to help them win the mis- Anthony Baldi. Senator Kerry, the U.S. sion. is preparing a new Iraq Government, and This President rushed to war, pushed our we’ll proceed to withdraw U.S. troops. allies aside, and Iran now is more dan- Would you proceed with the same plans gerous, and so is North Korea with nuclear as President Bush? weapons. He took his eye off the ball, off Senator Kerry. Anthony, I would not. I of Usama bin Laden. have laid out a different plan because the Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, I do want President’s plan is not working. You see to follow up on this one, because there that every night on television. There’s chaos were several questions from the audience in Iraq. King Abdullah of Jordan said just along this line. yesterday—or the day before, you can’t President Bush. Are we going to have hold elections in Iraq with the chaos that’s a rebuttal thing back and forth? going on today. Senator Richard Lugar, the Mr. Gibson. Well, I was going to have Republican chairman of the Foreign Rela- you do it with the rebuttal. But you go tions Committee, said that the handling of ahead. [Laughter] You’re up. the reconstruction aid in Iraq by this ad- President Bush. Remember the last de- ministration has been ‘‘incompetent.’’ Those bate? My opponent said that America must are the Republican chairman’s words. Sen- pass a global test before we use force to ator Hagel of Nebraska said that the han- protect ourselves. That’s the kind of dling of Iraq is ‘‘beyond pitiful, beyond em- mindset that says sanctions were working. barrassing. It’s in the zone of dangerous.’’ That’s the kind of mindset that says let’s Those are the words of two Republicans, keep it at the United Nations and hope respected, both on the Foreign Relations things go well. Committee. Saddam Hussein was a threat because Now, I have to tell you, I would do he could have given weapons of mass de- something different. I would reach out to struction to terrorist enemies. Sanctions our allies in a way that this President

2398 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 hasn’t. He pushed them away time and is he going to say to those people that again, pushed them away at the U.N., show up to the summit? ‘‘Join me in the pushed them away individually. Two weeks wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong ago, there was a meeting of the North At- place’’? Risk your troops in a war you’ve lantic Council, which is the political arm called a ‘‘mistake’’? Nobody is going to fol- of NATO. They discussed the possibility low somebody who doesn’t believe we can of a small training unit or having a total succeed and somebody who says the war takeover of the training in Iraq. Did our where we are is a ‘‘mistake.’’ I know how administration push for the total training these people think. I meet with them all of Iraq? No. Were they silent? Yes. Was the time. I talk to Tony Blair all the time. there an effort to bring all the allies to- I talk to Silvio Berlusconi. They’re not gether around that? No—because they’ve going to follow an American President who always wanted this to be an American ef- says, ‘‘Follow me into a mistake.’’ fort. You know, they even had the Defense Our plan is working. We’re going to Department issue a memorandum saying make elections, and Iraq is going to be don’t bother applying for assistance or for free, and America will be better off for being part of the reconstruction if you it. weren’t part of our original coalition. Mr. Gibson. Do you want to follow up, Now, that’s not a good way to build sup- Senator? port and reduce the risk for our troops Senator Kerry. Yes, sir, please. and make America safer. I’m going to get Ladies and gentlemen, the right war was the training done for our troops. I’m going Usama bin Laden and Afghanistan. That to get the training of Iraqis done faster, was the right place, and the right time was and I’m going to get our allies back to Tora Bora, when we had him cornered in the table. the mountains. Now, everyone in the world President Bush. Two days ago in the Oval knows that there were no weapons of mass Office, I met with the Finance Minister destruction. That was the reason Congress from Iraq. He came to see me, and he gave him the authority to use force, not talked about how optimistic he was and after excuse to get rid of the regime. the country was about heading toward elec- Now we have to succeed. I’ve always said tions. Think about it. They’re going from that. I have been consistent. Yes, we have tyranny to elections. He talked about the to succeed, and I have a better plan to reconstruction efforts that are beginning to help us do it. take hold. He talked about the fact that President Bush. First of all, we didn’t Iraqis love to be free. He said he was opti- find out he didn’t have weapons until we mistic when he came here. Then he turned got there, and my opponent thought he on the TV and listened to the political rhet- had weapons and told everybody he oric, and all of a sudden he was pessimistic. thought he had weapons. And secondly, it’s This is a guy who, along with others, a fundamental misunderstanding to say that has taken great risk for freedom, and we the war on terror is only Usama bin Laden. need to stand with him. My opponent says The war on terror is to make sure that he has a plan—sounds familiar because it’s these terrorist organizations do not end up called the Bush plan. We’re going to train with weapons of mass destruction. That’s troops, and we are. We’ll have 125,000 what the war on terror is about. trained by the end of December. We’re Of course we’re going to find Usama bin spending about $7 billion. Laden. We’ve already got 75 percent of He talks about a grand idea: Let’s have his people, and we’re on the hunt for him. a summit; we’re going to solve the problem But this is a global conflict that requires in Iraq by holding a summit. And what firm resolve.

2399 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

Mr. Gibson. The next question is for counted judge. I don’t think we ought to President Bush, and it comes from Nikki join that. That was unpopular. And so what Washington. I’m telling you is, is that sometimes in this world you make unpopular decisions be- President’s Decisionmaking on Iraq cause you think they’re right. Nikki Washington. Thank you. Mr. Presi- We’ll continue to reach out. Listen, dent, my mother and sister traveled abroad there’s 30 nations involved in Iraq, some this summer, and when they got back, they 40 nations involved in Afghanistan. People talked to us about how shocked they were love America. Sometimes they don’t like at the intensity of aggravation that other the decisions made by America, but I don’t countries had with how we handled the think you want a President who tries to Iraq situation. Diplomacy is, obviously, become popular and does the wrong thing. something that we have to really work on. You don’t want to join the International What is your plan to repair relations with Criminal Court just because it’s popular in other countries, given the current situation? certain capitals in Europe. President Bush. No, I appreciate that. Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and I—listen, I—we’ve got a great country. I a half. love our values. And I recognize I’ve made Senator Kerry. Nikki, that’s a question some decisions that have caused people to that’s been raised by a lot of people around not understand the great values of our the country. Let me address it but also country. I remember when Ronald Reagan talk about the weapons the President just was the President. He stood on principle. talked about, because every part of the Some might have called that stubborn. He President’s answer just now promises you stood on principle, standing up to the So- more of the same over the next 4 years. viet Union. And we won that conflict, yet The President stood right here in this at the same time, he was very—we were hall 4 years ago, and he was asked a ques- very unpopular in Europe because of deci- tion by somebody just like you: Under what sions he made. circumstances would you send people to I recognize that taking Saddam Hussein war? And his answer was: With a viable out was unpopular, but I made the decision exit strategy and only with enough forces because I thought it was in the right inter- to get the job done. He didn’t do that. ests of our security. He broke that promise. We didn’t have You know, I’ve made some decisions on enough forces. General Shinseki, the Army Israel. That’s unpopular. I wouldn’t deal Chief of Staff, told him he was going to with Arafat because I felt like he had let need several hundred thousand. And guess the former President down, and I don’t what? They retired General Shinseki for think he’s the kind of person that can lead telling him that. This President hasn’t lis- toward a Palestinian state. And people in tened. Europe didn’t like that decision. And that I went to meet with the members of was unpopular, but it was the right thing the Security Council in the week before to do. I believe Palestinians ought to have we voted. I went to New York. I talked a state, but I know they need leadership to all of them to find out how serious they that’s committed to democracy and free- were about really holding Saddam Hussein dom, leadership that will be willing to re- accountable. I came away convinced that ject terrorism. if we worked at it, if we were ready to I made a decision not to join the Inter- work at letting Hans Blix do his job and national Criminal Court in The Hague, thoroughly go through the inspections, that which is where our troops could be brought if push came to shove, they’d be there with to—brought in front of a judge, an unac- us.

2400 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8

But the President just arbitrarily brought Iran/North Korea the hammer down and said, ‘‘Nope, sorry, Randee Jacobs. Yes, Randee. Iran spon- time for diplomacy is over. We’re going.’’ sors terrorism and has missiles capable of He rushed to war without a plan to win hitting Israel and southern Europe. Iran the peace. Ladies and gentlemen, he gave will have nuclear weapons in 2 to 3 years’ you a speech and told you he’d plan care- time. In the event that U.N. sanctions don’t fully, take every precaution, take our allies stop this threat, what will you do as Presi- with us. He didn’t. He broke his word. dent? Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. Senator Kerry. I don’t think you can just President Bush. I remember sitting in the rely on U.N. sanctions, Randee, but you’re White House, looking at those generals, absolutely correct. It is a threat. It’s a huge saying, ‘‘Do you have what you need in threat. And what’s interesting is it’s a threat this war? Do you have what it takes?’’ I that has grown while the President has remember going down in the basement of been preoccupied with Iraq, where there the White House the day we committed wasn’t a threat. If he’d let the inspectors our troops—as last resort—looking at do their job and go on, we wouldn’t have Tommy Franks and the generals on the 10 times the numbers of forces in Iraq ground, asking them, ‘‘Do we have the that we have in Afghanistan chasing Usama right plan with the right troop level?’’ And bin Laden. they looked me in the eye and said, ‘‘Yes, Meanwhile, while Iran is moving towards sir, Mr. President.’’ Of course I listened nuclear weapons—some 37 tons of what to our generals. That’s what a President they call yellow cake, the stuff they use does. A President sets the strategy and re- to make enriched uranium—while they’re lies upon good military people to execute doing that, North Korea has moved from that strategy. one bomb, maybe—maybe—to 4 to 7 Mr. Gibson. Senator. bombs. For 2 years the President didn’t even Senator Kerry. You rely on good military engage with North Korea, did nothing at people to execute the military component all, while it was growing more dangerous, of the strategy, but winning the peace is despite the warnings of people like former larger than just the military component. Secretary of Defense William Perry, who General Shinseki had the wisdom to say negotiated getting television cameras and you’re going to need several hundred thou- inspectors into that reactor. We were safer sand troops to win the peace. The military’s before President Bush came to office. Now, job is to win the war. The President’s job they have the bombs, and we’re less safe. is to win the peace. The President did not So what do we do? We’ve got to join do what was necessary, didn’t bring in with the British and the French, with the enough nations, didn’t deliver the help, Germans who’ve been involved in their ini- didn’t close off the borders, didn’t even tiative. We’ve got to lead the world now guard the ammo dumps. And now our kids to crack down on proliferation as a whole. are being killed with ammos right out of But the President has been slow to do that that dump. even in Russia. At his pace, it’s going to Mr. Gibson. The next question is for take 13 years to reduce and get a hold Senator Kerry, and it comes from over of all the loose nuclear material in the here, from Randee Jacobs. You’ll need a former Soviet Union. I’ve proposed a plan microphone. that can capture it and contain it and clean Senator Kerry. Is it Randee? I’m sorry. it within 4 years.

2401 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

And the President is moving toward the Mr. Farley. creation of our own bunker-busting nuclear Possibility of Reinstating the Draft weapon. It’s very hard to get other coun- tries to give up their weapons when you’re Daniel Farley. Mr. President, since we busy developing a new one. I’m going to continue to police the world, how do you lead the world in the greatest intend to maintain a military presence with- counterproliferation effort, and if we have out reinstituting a draft? to get tough with Iran, believe me, we will President Bush. Yes, great question. get tough. Thanks. Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and I hear there’s rumors on the Internets a half. that we’re going to have a draft. We’re President Bush. That answer almost not going to have a draft—period. The All- made me want to scowl. [Laughter] He Volunteer Army works. It works particularly keeps talking about letting the inspectors when we pay our troops well. It works do their job. It’s naive and dangerous to when we make sure they’ve got housing, say that. That’s what the Duelfer report like we have done in the last military budg- showed. He was deceiving the inspectors. ets. An all-volunteer army is best suited Secondly, of course we’ve been involved to fight the new wars of the 21st century, with Iran. I fully understand the threat. which is to be specialized and to find these And that’s why we’re doing what he sug- people as they hide around the world. We gested we do, get the Brits, the Germans, don’t need massed armies anymore. and the French to go make it very clear One of the things we’ve done is we’ve to the Iranians that if they expect to be taken the—we’re beginning to transform a party to the world, to give up their nu- our military. And by that I mean we’re clear ambitions. We’ve been doing that. moving troops out of Korea and replacing Let me talk about North Korea. It is them with more effective weapons. We naive and dangerous to take a policy that don’t need as much manpower on the Ko- he suggested the other day, which is to rean Peninsula to keep a deterrent. have bilateral relations with North Korea. In Europe, we have massed troops as Remember, he is the person who is accus- if the Soviet Union existed and was going ing me of not acting multilaterally. He now to invade into Europe, but those days are wants to take the six-party talks we have— over with. And so we’re moving troops out China, North Korea, South Korea, Russia, of Europe and replacing it with more effec- Japan, and the United States—and under- tive equipment. mine them by having bilateral talks. That’s So the answer to your question is, we’re what President Clinton did. He had bilat- withdrawing—not from the world—we’re eral talks with the North Korean, and guess drawing manpower, so they can be sta- what happened? He didn’t honor the agree- tioned here in America, so there’s less rota- ment. He was enriching uranium. That is tion, so life is easier on their families and a bad policy. therefore more likely to be—we’ll be more Of course, we’re paying attention to likely to keep people in the All-Volunteer these. That’s a great question about Iran. Army. That’s why, in my speech to the Congress, One of the most important things we’re I said there is an axis of evil, Iraq, Iran, doing in this administration is trans- and North Korea, and we’re paying atten- formation. There’s some really interesting tion to it, and we’re making progress. technologies. For example, we’re flying un- Mr. Gibson. We’re going to move on, manned vehicles that can send real-time Mr. President, with a question for you. And messages back to stations in the United it comes from Daniel Farley. States. That saves manpower, and it saves

2402 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 equipment. It also means that we can target Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, let’s extend things easier and move more quickly, which for a minute. means we need to be lighter and quicker President Bush. Let me just—I’ve got to and more facile and highly trained. answer this. Forget all this talk about a draft. We’re Mr. Gibson. Exactly. And with Reservists not going to have a draft so long as I’m being held on duty and some soldiers—— the President. President Bush. Let me just answer what Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, minute and he just said about going alone. a half. Mr. Gibson. I wanted to get into the Senator Kerry. Daniel, I don’t support issue of the backdoor draft. a draft. But let me tell you where the Presi- President Bush. You tell Tony Blair we’re dent’s policies have put us. The President— going alone. Tell Tony Blair we’re going and this is one of the reasons why I’m alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we’re going very proud in this race to have the support alone. Tell Aleksander Kwasniewski of Po- of General John Shalikashvili, former Chair- land we’re going alone. We’ve got 30 coun- man of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Admiral tries there. It denigrates an alliance to say William Crowe, former Chairman of the we’re going alone, to discount their sac- Joint Chiefs of Staff; General Tony rifices. You cannot lead an alliance if you McPeak, who ran the air war for the Presi- say you’re going alone. And people listen. dent’s father and did a brilliant job—sup- They’re sacrificing with us. porting me; General Wes Clark, who won Mr. Gibson. Senator. the war in Kosovo—supporting me; because Senator Kerry. Mr. President, countries they all—and General Baca, who was the are leaving the coalition, not joining. Eight head of the National Guard—supporting countries have left it. If Missouri, just given me. Why? Because they understand that the number of people from Missouri who our military is overextended under this are in the military over there today, were President. a country, it would be the third largest Our Guard and Reserves have been country in the coalition, behind Great Brit- turned into almost active duty. You’ve got ain and the United States. That’s not a people doing two and three rotations. grand coalition. Ninety percent of the cas- You’ve got stop-loss policies so people can’t ualties are American. Ninety percent of the get out when they were supposed to. costs are coming out of your pockets. I You’ve got a backdoor draft right now, and could do a better job. My plan does a bet- a lot of our military are underpaid. These ter job, and that’s why I’ll be a better Com- are families that get hurt. It hurts the mid- mander in Chief. dle class. It hurts communities, because Mr. Gibson. The next question, Senator these are our first-responders, and they’re Kerry, is for you, and it comes from Ann called up, and they’re over there, not over Bronsing, who I believe is over in this area. here. Now, I’m going to add 40,000 active duty Terrorist Attacks/Homeland Security forces to the military. And I’m going to Ann Bronsing. Senator Kerry, we have make people feel good about being safe been fortunate that there have been no fur- in our military and not overextended be- ther terrorist attacks on American soil since cause I’m going to run a foreign policy 9/11. Why do you think this is? And if that actually does what President Reagan elected, what will you do to assure our did and President Eisenhower did and oth- safety? ers. We’re going to build alliances. We’re Senator Kerry. Thank you very much, not going to go unilaterally. We’re not Ann. I’ve asked in my security briefings going to go alone like this President did. why that is, and I can’t go into all the

2403 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 answers, et cetera, but let me say this to President Bush. That’s an odd thing to you. This President and his administration say since we’ve tripled the homeland secu- have told you and all of us, ‘‘It’s not a rity budget from 10 to 30 billion dollars. question of when, it’s a question of’’—ex- Listen, we’ll do everything we can to pro- cuse me, ‘‘not a question of if, it’s a ques- tect the homeland. My opponent is right: tion of when.’’ We’ve been told that. The We need good intelligence. It’s also a curi- ‘‘when’’ I can’t tell you. Between the World ous thing for him to say, since right after Trade Center bombing in—what was it, 1993, he voted to cut the intelligence budg- 1993 or so—and the next time was 5 years, et by $7.5 billion. 7 years. These people wait. They’ll plan. The best way to defend America in this They plot. world we live in is to stay on the offense. I agree with the President that we have We’ve got to be right 100 percent of the to go after them and get them wherever time here at home, and they’ve got to be they are. I just think I can do that far right once. And that’s the reality. And more effectively because the most impor- there’s a lot of good people working hard. tant weapon in doing that is intelligence. We’re doing the best we possibly can to You’ve got to have the best intelligence in share information. That’s why the PA- the world. And in order to have the best TRIOT Act was important. The PATRIOT intelligence in the world, to know who the Act is vital, by the way. It’s a tool that terrorists are and where they are and what law enforcement now uses to be able to they’re plotting, you’ve got to have the best talk between each other. My opponent says cooperation you’ve ever had in the world. he hasn’t changed his positions on it. No, Now, to go back to your question, Nikki, but he’s for weakening it. we’re not getting the best cooperation in I don’t think my opponent has got the the world today. We’ve got a whole bunch right view about the world to make us safe. of countries that pay a price for dealing I really don’t. First of all, I don’t think with the United States of America now. he can succeed in Iraq. And if Iraq were I’m going to change that. to fail, it would be a haven for terrorists, And I’m going to put in place a better and there would be money, and the world homeland security effort. Look at it, 95 would be much more dangerous. I don’t percent of our containers coming into this see how you can win in Iraq if you don’t country are not inspected today. When you believe we should be there in the first get on an airplane, your cart—your bag is place. I don’t see how you can lead troops X-rayed, but the cargo hold isn’t X-rayed. if you say, ‘‘It’s the wrong war at the wrong Do you feel safer? This President, in the place at the wrong time.’’ I don’t see how last debate, said that, well, that would be the Iraqis are going to have confidence in a big tax gap if we did that. Ladies and the American President if all they hear is gentlemen, it’s his tax plan. He chose a that it was a ‘‘mistake’’ to be there in the tax cut for the wealthiest Americans over first place. getting that equipment out into the home- This war is a long, long war, and it re- land as fast as possible. We have bridges quires steadfast determination. And it re- and tunnels that aren’t being secured; quires a complete understanding that we chemical plants, nuclear plants that aren’t not only chase down Al Qaida, but we dis- secured; hospitals that are overcrowded in rupt terrorists’ safe havens as well as people their emergency rooms. If we had a disaster who could provide the terrorists with sup- today, could they handle it? port. This President chose a tax cut over Mr. Gibson. I want to extend for a homeland security. Wrong choice. minute, Senator, and I’m curious about Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. something you said. You said, ‘‘It’s not

2404 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 when but if.’’ You think it’s inevitable? Be- that’s why the FDA and that’s why the cause the sense of security is a very basic Surgeon General are looking very carefully thing with everybody in this country, wor- to make sure it can be done in a safe ried about their kids. way. I’ve got an obligation to make sure Senator Kerry. Well, the President and our Government does everything we can his experts have told America that it’s not to protect you. And one of—my worry is a question of if, it’s a question of when. that it looks like it’s from Canada, and it And I accept what the President has said. might be from a third world. We’ve just These terrorists are serious. They’re deadly, got to make sure, before somebody thinks and they know nothing except trying to kill. they’re buying a product, that it works. And I understand that. That’s why I will never that’s why we’re doing what we’re doing. stop at anything to hunt down and kill the Now, it may very well be, here in Decem- terrorists. ber, you hear me say, ‘‘I think there’s a But you heard the President just say to safe way to do it.’’ you that we’ve added money. Folks, the Other ways to make sure drugs are test is not if you’ve added money. The test cheaper: One is to speed up generic drugs is, have you done everything possible to to the marketplace quicker. Pharma- make America secure? He chose a tax cut ceuticals were using loopholes to keep for wealthy Americans over the things that brand drugs in place, and generics are I listed to you. much less expensive than brand drugs. And Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. we’re doing just that. Another is to get President Bush. Well, we’ll talk about the our seniors to sign up for these drug dis- tax cut for middle class here in a minute. count cards, and they’re working. Wanda But yes, I’m worried. I’m worried. I’m wor- Blackmore, I met here from Missouri—the ried about our country. And all I can tell first time she bought drugs with her drug you is, every day I know that there’s people discount card she paid $1.14, I think it working overtime, doing the very best they was, for about $10 worth of drugs. These can. And the reason I’m worried is because cards make sense. there’s a vicious enemy that has an ideology And you know, in 2006, seniors are going of hate. And the way to defeat them long- to get prescription drug coverage for the term, by the way, is to spread freedom. first time in Medicare, because I went to Liberty can change habits, and that’s what’s Washington to fix problems. Medicare—the happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. issue of Medicare used to be called ‘‘Medi- Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, we’re going scare.’’ People didn’t want to touch it for to turn to questions now on domestic pol- fear of getting hurt politically. I wanted icy, and we’re going to start with health to get something done. I think our seniors issues. And the first question is for Presi- deserve a modern medical system. And in dent Bush, and it’s from John Horstman. 2006, our seniors will get prescription drug Drug Imports From Canada/Health Care coverage. John Horstman. Mr. President, why did Thank you for asking. you block the reimportation of safer and Mr. Gibson. Senator, a minute and a inexpensive drugs from Canada, which half. would have cut 40 to 60 percent off of Senator Kerry. John, you heard the Presi- the cost? dent just say that he thought he might try President Bush. I haven’t yet. I just want to be for it. Four years ago, right here to make sure they’re safe. When a drug in this forum, he was asked the same ques- comes in from Canada, I want to make tion, ‘‘Can’t people be able to import drugs sure it cures you and doesn’t kill you. And from Canada?’’ Do you know what he said?

2405 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

‘‘I think that makes sense. I think that’s Senator Kerry. Actually, Mr. President, a good idea’’—4 years ago. in 1997, we fixed Medicare, and I was one Now, the President said, ‘‘I’m not block- of the people involved in it. We not only ing that.’’ Ladies and gentlemen, the Presi- fixed Medicare and took it way out into dent just didn’t level with you—right now, the future, we did something that you don’t again. He did block it, because we passed know how to do. We balanced the budget. it in the United States Senate. We sent And we paid down the debt of our Nation it over to the House that you could import for 2 years in a row, and we created 23 drugs. We took care of the safety issues. million new jobs at the same time. And We’re not talking about third-world drugs. it’s the President’s fiscal policies that have We’re talking about drugs made right here driven up the biggest deficits in American in the United States of America that have history. He’s added more debt to the debt American brand names on them, in Amer- of the United States in 4 years than all ican bottles, and we’re asking they be able the way from George Washington to Ron- to allow you to get them. The President ald Reagan put together. Go figure. blocked it. Mr. Gibson. Next question is for Senator The President also took Medicare, which Kerry, and this comes from Norma-Jean belongs to you, and he could have lowered Laurent. the cost of Medicare and lowered your taxes and lowered the cost to seniors. You Tort Reform know what he did? He made it illegal— Norma-Jean Laurent. Senator Kerry, illegal—for Medicare to do what the VA you’ve stated your concern for the rising does, which is bulk-purchase drugs so that cost of health care. Yet you chose a Vice you could lower the price and get them Presidential candidate who has made mil- out to you lower. He put $139 billion of lions of dollars successfully suing medical windfall profit into the pockets of the drug professionals. How do you reconcile this companies, right out of your pockets. with the voters? That’s the difference between us. The Senator Kerry. Very easily. John Edwards President sides with the power companies, is the author of the Patients’ Bill of Rights. the oil companies, the drug companies. And He wanted to give people rights. John Ed- I’m fighting to let you get those drugs from wards and I support tort reform. We both Canada, and I’m fighting to let Medicare believe that as lawyers—I’m a lawyer too— survive. I’m fighting for the middle class. and I believe that we will be able to get That’s the difference. a fix that has eluded everybody else, be- Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. cause we know how to do it. It’s in my President Bush. If they’re safe, they’re health care proposal. Go to coming. I want to remind you that it wasn’t johnkerry.com—you can pull it off the just my administration that made the deci- Internet—and you’ll find a tort reform sion on safety. President Clinton did the plan. same thing, because we have an obligation Now, ladies and gentlemen, important to to protect you. understand, the President and his friends Now, he talks about Medicare. He’s been try to make a big deal out of it. Is it a in the United States Senate 20 years. Show problem? Yes, it’s a problem. Do we need me one accomplishment toward Medicare to fix it, particularly for ob-gyns * and for that he accomplished. I’ve been in Wash- brain surgeons and others? Yes. But it’s ington, DC, 31⁄2 years and led the Congress less than one percent of the total cost of to reform Medicare so our seniors have health care. Your premiums are going up. got a modern health care system. That’s what leadership is all about. * White House correction.

2406 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8

You’ve gone up in Missouri about $3,500. says that medical liability costs only cause You’ve gone up 64 percent. You’ve seen one percent increase. That shows a lack co-pays go up, deductibles go up. Every- of understanding. Doctors practice defen- thing has gone up. Five million people have sive medicine because of all the frivolous lost their health insurance under this Presi- lawsuits that cost our Government $28 bil- dent, and he’s done nothing about it. lion a year. I have a plan. I have a plan to lower And finally, he says he’s going to have the cost of health care for you. I have a a novel health care plan. You know what plan to cover all children. I have a plan it is? The Federal Government is going to to let you buy into the same health care run it. It is the largest increase in Federal Senators and Congressmen give themselves. Government health care ever, and it fits I have a plan that’s going to allow people with his philosophy. That’s why I told you 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And about the award he won from the National I have a plan that will take the catastrophic Journal. That’s what liberals do: They cre- cases out of the system, off your backs, ate Government-sponsored health care. pay for it out of a Federal fund, which Maybe you think that makes sense. I don’t. lowers the premiums for everybody in Government-sponsored health care would America, makes American business more lead to rationing. It would ruin the quality competitive, and makes health care more of health care in America. affordable. Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, we got sev- Now, all of that can happen, but I have eral questions along this line, and I’m just to ask you to do one thing. Join me in curious if you’d go further on what you rolling back the President’s unaffordable tax cut for people earning more than $200,000 talked about with tort reform. Would you a year. That’s all. Ninety-eight percent of be favoring capping awards on pain and America, I’m giving you a tax cut, and I’m suffering? Would you limit attorneys’ fees— giving you health care. yes, to follow up on this for a minute. Thir- Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and ty seconds. a half. Senator Kerry. Yes, I think we should President Bush. Let me see where to look at the punitive, and we should have start here. First, the National Journal some limitations. But look, what’s really im- named Senator Kerry * the most liberal portant, Charlie, is the President’s just try- Senator of all. And that’s saying something ing to scare everybody here with throwing in that bunch. You might say that took a labels around. I mean, ‘‘compassionate con- lot of hard work. servative,’’ what does that mean? Cutting The reason I bring that up is because 500,000 kids from after-school programs? he’s proposed $2.2 trillion in new spending Cutting 365,000 kids from health care? and he says he’s going to tax the rich to Running up the biggest deficits in Amer- close the tax gap. He can’t. He’s going to ican history? Mr. President, you’re batting tax everybody here to fund his programs. 0 for 2. I mean, seriously, labels don’t mean That’s just reality. anything. What means something is do you And what are his health programs? First, have a plan, and I want to talk about my he says he’s for medical liability reform, plan some more. I hope we can. particularly for ob-gyns. There was a bill Mr. Gibson. We’ll get to that in just a on the floor of the United States Senate minute. Thirty seconds. that he could have showed up and voted President Bush. What does matter is the for if he’s so much for it. Secondly, he plan. He said he is for—you’re now for capping punitive damages? That’s odd. You * White House correction. should have shown up on the floor in the

2407 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

Senate and voted for it then. Medical liabil- I come from the school of thought that ity issues are a problem, a significant prob- says when people have more money in their lem. He’s been in the United States Senate pocket during tough economic times, it in- for 20 years, and he hasn’t addressed it. creases demand or investment. Small busi- We passed it out of the House of Rep- nesses begin to grow, and jobs are added. resentatives. Guess where it stuck? It stuck We found out today that over the past 13 in the Senate because the trial lawyers months, we’ve added 1.9 million new jobs won’t act on it, and he put a trial lawyer in the last 13 months. I proposed a plan, on the ticket. detailed budget, that shows us cutting the Mr. Gibson. The next question is for deficit in half by 5 years. President Bush, and it comes from Mat- And you’re right, I haven’t vetoed any thew O’Brien. spending bills because we worked together. Non-homeland, non-defense, discretionary Federal Deficit spending was rising at 15 percent a year Matthew O’Brien. Mr. President, you when I got into office. And today, it’s less have enjoyed a Republican majority in the than one percent, because we’re working House and Senate for most of your Presi- together to try to bring this deficit under dency. In that time, you’ve not vetoed a control. Like you, I’m concerned about the single spending bill. Excluding 120 billion deficit. But I am not going to shortchange spent in Iran and Afghan—I’m sorry, Iraq our troops in harm’s way. And I’m not and Afghanistan, there has been $700 bil- going to run up taxes which will cost this lion spent and not paid for by taxes. Please economy jobs. explain how the spending you have ap- Thank you for your question. proved and not paid for is better for the Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and American people than the spending pro- a half. posed by your opponent. Senator Kerry. Let me begin by saying President Bush. Right. Thank you for that my health care plan is not what the that. We have a deficit. We have a deficit President described. It is not a Government because this country went into a recession. takeover. You have choice: Choose your You might remember the stock market doctor; choose your plan. The Government started to decline dramatically 6 months be- has nothing to do with it. In fact, it doesn’t fore I came to office, and then the bubble ask you to do anything. If you don’t want of the 1990s popped. And that cost us rev- to take it, you don’t have to. If you like enue—that cost us revenue. your high premiums, you keep them. That’s Secondly, we’re at war. And I’m going the way we leave it. to spend what it takes to win the war, more Now, with respect to the deficit, the than just 120 billion for Iraq and Afghani- President was handed a $5.6 trillion sur- stan. We’ve got to pay our troops more. plus, ladies and gentlemen. That’s where We have. We’ve increased money for am- he was when he came into office. We now munition and weapons and pay and home- have a $2.6 trillion deficit. This is the big- land security. I just told this lady over here gest turnaround in the history of the coun- we spent—went from 10 to 30 billion dol- try. He’s the first President in 72 years lars to protect the homeland. I think we to lose jobs. He talked about war. This have an obligation to spend that kind of is the first time the United States of Amer- money. ica has ever had a tax cut when we’re at Plus, we cut taxes for everybody. Every- war. Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, body got tax relief, so that they’d get out others knew how to lead. They knew how of the recession. I think if you raise taxes to ask the American people for the right during a recession, you head to depression. things.

2408 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8

One percent of America—the highest Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next one percent of income earners in America question will be for you, and it comes from got $89 billion of tax cut last year. One James Varner, who I believe is in this sec- percent of America got more than the 80 tion. Mr. Varner? You need a microphone. percent of America that earned from $100,000 down. The President thinks it’s Taxes more important to fight for that top one percent than to fight for fiscal responsibility James Varner. Thank you. Senator Kerry, and to fight for you. would you be willing to look directly into I want to put money in your pocket. the camera and, using simple and un- I am—I have a proposal for a tax cut for equivocal language, give the American peo- all people earning less than the $200,000. ple your solemn pledge not to sign any The only people affected in my plan are legislation that will increase the tax burden the top income earners of America. on families earning less than $200,000 a Mr. Gibson. I both—I heard you both year during your first term? say—I have heard you both say during the Senator Kerry. Absolutely. Yes. Right campaign, and I just heard you say it— into the camera—yes. I am not going to that you’re going to cut the deficit by a raise taxes. I have a tax cut, and here’s half in 4 years. But I didn’t hear one thing my tax cut. I raise the child care credit in the last 31⁄2 minutes that would indicate by $1,000 for families to help them be able how either one of you do that. to take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 President Bush. Look at the budget. One tuition tax credit that goes to parents and is, make sure Congress doesn’t overspend. kids, if they’re earning for themselves, to But let me talk back about where we’ve be able to pay for college. And I lower been. The stock market was declining 6 the cost of health care in the way that months prior to my arrival. It was the larg- I described to you. est stock market correction—one of the Every part of my program, I’ve shown largest in history, which foretold a reces- how I’m going to pay for it. And I’ve gotten sion. Because we cut taxes on everybody— good people, like former Secretary of the remember, we ran up the child credit by Treasury Bob Rubin for instance, who 1,000; we reduced the marriage penalty; showed how to balance budgets and give we created the 10-percent bracket; every- you a good economy, to help me crunch body who pays taxes got relief—the reces- these numbers and make them work. I’ve sion was one of the shortest in our Nation’s even scaled back some of my favorite pro- history. grams already, like the child care program Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds. I wanted to fund and the national service Senator Kerry. After 9/11, after the re- program, because the President’s deficit cession had ended, the President asked for keeps growing. And I’ve said, as a pledge, another tax cut and promised 5.6 million I’m going to cut the deficit in half in 4 jobs would be created. He lost 1.6 million, years. ladies and gentlemen, and most of that tax Now, I’m going to restore what we did cut went to the wealthiest people in the in the 1990s, ladies and gentlemen: Pay country. He came and asked for a tax cut; as you go. We’re going to do it like you we wanted a tax cut to kick the economy do it. The President broke the pay-as-you- into gear. Do you know what he presented go rule. Somebody here asked the question us with? A $25 billion giveaway to the big- about why haven’t you vetoed something. gest corporations in America, including a It’s a good question. If you care about it, $254 million refund check to Enron. Wrong why don’t you veto it? I think John McCain priorities. You are my priority. called the energy bill the no lobbyist left

2409 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 behind bill. I mean, you’ve got to stand said over the past 13 months, we’ve created up and fight somewhere, folks. 1.9 million new jobs. We’re growing. And I’m pledging I will not raise taxes. I’m so the fundamental question of this cam- giving a tax cut to the people earning less paign is, who’s going to keep the economy than $200,000 a year. Now, for the people growing so people can work? That’s the earning more than $200,000 a year, you fundamental question. are going to see a rollback to the level Mr. Gibson. I’m going to come back one we were at with Bill Clinton, when people made a lot of money. And looking around more time to how these numbers add up here at this group here, I suspect there and how you can cut that deficit in half are only three people here who are going in 4 years, given what you’ve both said. to be affected: the President, me, and Senator Kerry. Well, first of all, the Charlie, I’m sorry, you too. [Laughter] President’s figures of 2.2 trillion just aren’t Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, 90 seconds. accurate. Those are the fuzzy math figures President Bush. It’s just not credible. put together by some group that works for When he talks about being fiscally conserv- the campaign. That’s not the number. ative, it’s just not credible. If you look at Number two, John McCain and I have his record in the Senate, he voted to break a proposal, jointly, for a commission that the spending—the caps, the spending caps, closes corporate giveaway loopholes. We’ve over 200 times, and here he says he’s going got $40 billion going to Bermuda. We’ve to be a fiscal conservative all of a sudden. It’s just not credible. You cannot believe got all kinds of giveaways. We ought to it. be shutting those down. And of course he’s going to raise your And third, credible? Ladies and gentle- taxes. You see, he’s proposed $2.2 trillion men, in 1985, I was one of the first Demo- of new spending. And so they said, ‘‘Well, crats to move to balance the budget. I how are you going to pay for it?’’ He said, voted for the balanced budget in ’93 and well, he’s going to raise the taxes on the ’97. We did it. We did it, and I was there. rich. That’s what he said, the top two Mr. Gibson. Thirty seconds—I’m sorry, brackets. That raises—he says 800 billion; thirty seconds, Mr. President. we say 600 billion. We’ve got battling green eyeshades—somewhere in between those President Bush. Yes, I mean, he’s got numbers. And so there is a difference, what a record. He’s been there for 20 years. he’s promised and what he could raise. You can run, but you can’t hide. He voted Now, either he’s going to break all these 98 times to raise taxes. I mean, these aren’t wonderful promises he’s told you about, or make-up figures. And so people are going he’s going to raise taxes. And I suspect, to have to look at the record—look at the given his record, he’s going to raise taxes. record of the man running for the Presi- Is my time up yet? dent. They don’t name him the most liberal Mr. Gibson. No, you can keep going. in the United States Senate because he President Bush. Keep going, good. hasn’t shown up to many meetings. They [Laughter] named him because of his votes, and it’s Mr. Gibson. You’re on—— reality. It’s just not credible to say he’s President Bush. You looked at me like going to keep taxes down and balance my clock was up. budgets. I think that the way to grow this econ- omy is to keep taxes low, is to have an Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, the next energy plan, is to have litigation reform. question is for you, and it comes from As I told you, we just got a report that James Hubb, over here.

2410 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8

Action on the Environment/Kyoto Protocol That’s why I’m a big proponent of clean to the United Nations Framework coal technology, to make sure we can use Convention on Climate Change coal but in a clean way. I guess you’d say James Hubb. Mr. President, how would I’m a good steward of the land. The quality you rate yourself as an environmentalist? of the air is cleaner since I’ve been the What specifically has your administration President; fewer water complaints since I’ve done to improve the condition of our Na- been the President; more land being re- tion’s air and water supply? stored since I’ve been the President. President Bush. Off-road diesel en- Thank you for your question. gines—we have reached an agreement to Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and reduce pollution from off-road diesel en- a half. gines by 90 percent. I’ve got a plan to Senator Kerry. Boy, to listen to that, the increase the wetlands by 3 million. We’ve President I don’t think is living in a world got an aggressive brownfield program to re- of reality with respect to the environment. furbish inner-city sore spots to useful pieces Now, if you’re a Red Sox fan, that’s okay. of property. But if you’re a President, it’s not. Let me I proposed to the United States Congress just say to you, number one, don’t throw a Clear Skies Initiative to reduce sulfur di- the labels around. Labels don’t mean any- oxide, nitrogen oxide, and mercury by 70 thing. I supported welfare reform. I led percent. I was—fought for a very strong the fight to put 100,000 cops on the streets title in the farm bill for the Conservation of America. I’ve been for faith-based initia- Reserve Program to set aside millions of tives helping to intervene in the lives of acres of land for—to help improve wildlife young children for years. I was—broke with in the habitat. my party in 1985, one of the first three We proposed and passed a Healthy For- Democrats to fight for a balanced budget ests bill, which was essential to working when it was heresy. Labels don’t fit, ladies with—particularly in western States, to and gentlemen. make sure that our forests were protected. Now, when it comes to the issue of the What happens in those forests, because of environment, this is one of the worst ad- lousy Federal policy, is they grow to be— ministrations in modern history. The Clear they are not—they’re not harvested. Skies bill that he just talked about—it’s one They’re not taken care of, and as a result, of those Orwellian names you pull out of they’re like tinder boxes. And over the last the sky, slap it onto something—like No summers I’ve flown over there. And so this Child Left Behind, but you leave millions is a reasonable policy to protect old stands of children behind. Here they’re leaving the of trees and, at the same time, make sure skies and the environment behind. our forests aren’t vulnerable to the forest If they just left the Clean Air Act all fires that have destroyed acres after acres alone the way it is today, no change, the in the West. We’ve got a good, common- air would be cleaner than it is if you pass sense policy. the cleaner skies act. We’re going back- Now, I’m going to tell you what I really wards. In fact, his environmental enforce- think is going to happen over time, is tech- ment chief air quality person at the EPA nology is going to change the way we live, resigned in protest over what they’re doing for the good, for the environment. So I to what are called the New Source Per- proposed a hydrogen automobile, a hydro- formance Standards for air quality. They’re gen-generated automobile. We’re spending going backwards on the definition for wet- a billion dollars to come up with the tech- lands. They’re going backwards on the nologies to do that. water quality. They pulled out of the global

2411 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 warming, declared it dead; didn’t even ac- again, I regret, this administration has not cept the science. I’m going to be a Presi- seized them and embraced them. Let me dent who believes in science. give you an example. There’s a tax loophole Mr. Gibson. Mr. President? right now—if you’re a company in St. Louis President Bush. Well, had we joined the working, trying to make jobs here, there’s Kyoto treaty, which I guess he’s referring actually an incentive for you to go away. to, it would have cost America a lot of You get more money—you can keep more jobs. It’s one of these deals where in order of your taxes by going abroad. I’m going to be popular in the halls of Europe, you to shut that loophole, and I’m going to sign a treaty. But I thought it would cost give the tax benefit to the companies that a lot of—I think there’s a better way to stay here in America to help make them do it. And I just told you the facts, sir. more competitive. The quality of the air is cleaner since I’ve Secondly, we’re going to create a manu- been the President of the United States. facturing jobs credit and a new jobs credit And we’ll continue to spend money on re- for people to be able to help hire and search and development because I truly be- be more competitive here in America. lieve that’s the way to get from how we Third, what’s really hurting American live today to being able to live a standard business, more than anything else, is the of living that we’re accustomed to and cost of health care. Now, you didn’t hear being able to protect our environment bet- any plan from the President, because he ter—the use of technologies. doesn’t have a plan to lower the cost of Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds. health care. Five million Americans have Senator Kerry. The fact is that the Kyoto lost their health care; 620,000 Missourians treaty was flawed. I was in Kyoto, and I have no health care at all; 96,000 Missou- was part of that. I know what happened. rians have lost their health care under But this President didn’t try to fix it. He President Bush. just declared it dead, ladies and gentlemen, I have a plan to cover those folks, and and we walked away from the work of 160 it’s a plan that lowers costs for everybody, nations over 10 years. You wonder, Nikki, covers all children. And the way I pay for why it is that people don’t like us in some it—I’m not fiscally irresponsible—is I roll parts of the world. You just say, ‘‘Hey, we back the tax cut that this President so don’t agree with you. Goodbye.’’ The Presi- fiercely wants to defend, the one for him dent has done nothing to try to fix it. I will. and me and Charlie. I think you ought Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next to get the break. I want to lower your cost question is for you. It involves jobs, which of health care. is a topic in the news today. And for the I want to fully fund education, No Child question, we’re going to turn to Jane Bar- Left Behind, special needs education. And row. that’s how we’re going to be more competi- tive, by making sure our kids are graduating Trade Competitiveness/Jobs/Taxes from school and college. China and India Jane Barrow. Senator Kerry, how can the are graduating more graduates in tech- U.S. be competitive in a manufacturing nology and science than we are. We’ve got given—in manufacturing, excuse me, given to create the products of the future. the wage necessary and comfortably accept- That’s why I have a plan for energy inde- ed for American workers to maintain the pendence within 10 years. And we’re going standard of living that they expect? to put our laboratories and our colleges Senator Kerry. Jane, there are a lot of and universities to work, and we’re going ways to be competitive. And unfortunately, to get the great entrepreneurial spirit of

2412 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 this country, and we’re going to free our- to stop outsourcing. But when you have selves from this dependency on Mideast oil. IBM documents that I saw recently, where That’s how you create jobs and become you can hire a programmer for $12 in competitive. China, $56 an hour here, tax credits won’t Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, minute and cut it in that area. a half. Senator Kerry. You can’t stop all President Bush. Let me start with how outsourcing, Charlie. I’ve never promised to control the costs of health care: Medical that. I’m not going to, because that would liability reform, for starters, which he’s op- be pandering. You can’t. But what you can posed. Secondly, allow small businesses to do is create a fair playing field, and that’s pool together so they can share risk and what I’m talking about. buy insurance at the same discounts big But let me just address what the Presi- businesses get to do. Thirdly, spread what’s dent just said. Ladies and gentlemen, that’s called health savings accounts. It’s good for just not true, what he said. The Wall Street small businesses, good for owners. You own Journal said 96 percent of small businesses your own account. You can save tax-free. are not affected at all by my plan. And You get a catastrophic plan to help you— you know why he gets that count? The own it. This is different from saying, ‘‘Okay, President got $84 from a timber company let me incent you to go on the Govern- that he owns, and he’s counted as a small ment.’’ business. Dick Cheney is counted as a small He’s talking about his plan to keep jobs business. That’s how they do things. That’s here. You know, he calls it an just not right. outsourcing—to keep—stop outsourcing. President Bush. I own a timber com- Robert Rubin looked at his plan and said pany? That’s news to me. [Laughter] Need it won’t work. The best way to keep jobs some wood? [Laughter] here in America is, one, have an energy Most small businesses are Subchapter S plan. I proposed one to the Congress 2 corps. They just are. I met Grant Milliron, years ago. It encourages conservation, en- Mansfield, Ohio. He’s creating jobs. Most courages technology to explore for environ- small businesses—70 percent of the new mentally friendly ways for coal and use coal jobs in America are created by small busi- and gas. It encourages the use of renew- ness. His taxes are going up when you run ables like ethanol and biodiesel. It’s stuck up the top two brackets. It’s a fact. in the Senate. He and his runningmate Mr. Gibson. President Bush, the next didn’t show up to vote when they could question is for you, and it comes from Rob have got it going in the Senate. Less regu- Fowler, who I believe is over in this area. lations if we want jobs here. Legal reform if we want jobs here. And we’ve got to keep taxes low. PATRIOT Act Now, he says he’s only going to tax the Rob Fowler. President Bush, 45 days rich. Do you realize 900,000 small busi- after 9/11, Congress passed the PATRIOT nesses will be taxed under his plan because Act, which takes away checks on law en- most small businesses are Subchapter S forcement and weakens American citizens’ corps or limited partnerships, and they pay rights and freedoms, especially Fourth tax at the individual income-tax level. And Amendment rights. With expansions of the so when you’re running up the taxes like PATRIOT Act and PATRIOT Act II, my that, you’re taxing job creators, and that’s question to you is, why are my rights being not how you keep jobs here. watered down and my citizens around me, Mr. Gibson. Senator, I want to extend and what are the specific justifications for for a minute. You talk about tax credits these reforms?

2413 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

President Bush. Yes, I appreciate that. had twice applied it in ways that were inap- I really don’t think your rights are being propriate. People’s rights have been abused. watered down. As a matter of fact, I I met a man who spent 8 months in prison, wouldn’t support it if I thought that. Every wasn’t even allowed to call his lawyer, action being taken against terrorists re- wasn’t allowed to—finally, Senator Dick quires a court order, requires scrutiny. As Durbin of Illinois intervened and was able a matter of fact, the tools now given to to get him out. This is in our country, the terrorist fighters are the same tools that folks, the United States of America. They’ve we’ve been using against drug dealers and got sneak-and-peak searches that are al- white-collar criminals. So I really don’t lowed. They’ve got people allowed to go think so. I hope you don’t think that. I into churches now and political meetings, mean, I—because I think whoever is the without any showing of potential criminal President must guard your liberties, must activity or otherwise. not erode your rights in America. Now, I voted for the PATRIOT Act. The PATRIOT Act is necessary, for ex- Ninety-nine United States Senators voted ample, because parts of the FBI couldn’t for it. And the President has been very talk to each other. Intelligence gathering busy running around the country using and the law enforcement arms of the FBI what I just described to you as a reason just couldn’t share intelligence under the to say I’m wishy-washy, that I’m a flip- old law, and that didn’t make any sense. flopper. Now, that’s not a flip-flop. I be- Our law enforcement must have every tool lieve in the PATRIOT Act. We need the necessary to find and disrupt terrorists at things in it that coordinate the FBI and home and abroad before they hurt us again. the CIA. We need to be stronger on ter- That’s the task of the 21st century. rorism. But you know what we also need And so I don’t think the PATRIOT Act to do as Americans is never let the terror- abridges your rights at all, and I know it’s ists change the Constitution of the United necessary. I can remember being in upstate States in a way that disadvantages our New York talking to FBI agents that helped rights. bust the Lackawanna cell up there. And Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next they told me they could not have per- question is for you, and it comes from Eliz- formed their duty, the duty we all expect abeth Long. of them, if they did not have the ability to communicate with each other under the Embryonic Stem Cell Research PATRIOT Act. Elizabeth Long. Senator Kerry, thousands Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and of people have already been cured or treat- a half. ed by the use of adult stem cells or umbil- Senator Kerry. Former Governor ical cord stem cells. However, no one has Racicot, as chairman of the Republican been cured by using embryonic stem cells. Party, said he thought that the PATRIOT Wouldn’t it be wise to use stem cells ob- Act has to be changed and fixed. Congress- tained without the destruction of an em- man Jim Sensenbrenner—he’s the chair- bryo? man of the House Judiciary Committee— Senator Kerry. You know, Elizabeth, I has said over his dead body before it gets really respect your—the feeling that’s in renewed without being thoroughly re- your question. I understand it. I know the checked. Whole bunch of folks in America morality that’s prompting that question, and concerned about the way the PATRIOT I respect it enormously. But like Nancy Act has been applied. Reagan and so many other people—you In fact, the Inspector General of the Jus- know, I was at a forum with Michael J. tice Department found that John Ashcroft Fox the other day in New Hampshire,

2414 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 who’s suffering from Parkinson’s, and he so is balancing life. To destroy life to save wants us to do stem cell—embryonic stem life is one of the real ethical dilemmas that cell. And this fellow stood up, and he was we face. quivering. His whole body was shaking There is going to be hundreds of experi- from the nerve disease, the muscular dis- ments off the 22 lines that now exist, that ease that he had, and he said to me and are active, and hopefully we find a cure. to the whole hall, he said, you know, But as well we need to continue to pursue ‘‘Don’t take away my hope because my adult stem cell research. I helped double hope is what keeps me going.’’ Chris Reeve the NIH budget to $28 billion a year to is a friend of mine. Chris Reeve exercises find cures. And the approach I took is one every single day to keep those muscles alive that I think is a balanced and necessary for the day when he believes he can walk approach, to balance science and the con- again, and I want him to walk again. cerns for life. I think we can save lives. Now, I think Mr. Gibson. Senator, thirty seconds, let’s we can do ethically guided embryonic stem extend. cell research. We have 100,000 to 200,000 Senator Kerry. When you talk about embryos that are frozen in nitrogen today walking a waffle line, he says he’s allowed from fertility clinics. These weren’t taken it, which means he’s going to allow the from abortion or something like that. destruction of life up to a certain amount, They’re from a fertility clinic, and they’re and then he isn’t going to allow it. Now, either going to be destroyed or left frozen. I don’t know how you draw that line. But And I believe if we have the option, which let me tell you pointblank, the lines of stem scientists tell us we do, of curing Parkin- cells that he’s made available, every sci- son’s, curing diabetes, curing some kind of entist in the country will tell you, ‘‘Not a paraplegic or quadriplegic or a spinal cord adequate,’’ because they’re contaminated by injury, anything—that’s the nature of the mouse cells and because there aren’t 60 human spirit. I think it is respecting life or 70; there are only about 11 to 20 now, to reach for that cure. I think it is respect- and there aren’t enough to be able to do ing life to do it in an ethical way. the research because they’re contaminated. And the President’s chosen a policy that We’ve got to open up the possibilities makes it impossible for our scientists to of this research. And when I am President, do that. I want the future, and I think I’m going to do it, because we have to. we have to grab it. Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and President Bush. Let me make sure you a half. understand my decision. Those stem cell President Bush. Embryonic stem cell re- lines already existed. The embryo had al- search requires the destruction of life to ready been destroyed prior to my decision. create a stem cell. I’m the first President I had to make the decision: Do we destroy ever to allow funding, Federal funding, for more life; do we continue to destroy life? embryonic stem cell research. I did so be- I made the decision to balance science and cause I too hope that we’ll discover cures ethics. from the stem cells and from the research Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, the next derived. question is for you, and it comes from Jon- But I think we’ve got to be very careful athan Michaelson. in balancing the ethics and the science. And so I made the decision we wouldn’t Supreme Court spend any more money beyond the 70 Jonathan Michaelson. Mr. President, if lines, 22 of which are now in action, be- there were a vacancy in the Supreme Court cause science is important but so is ethics, and you had the opportunity to fill that

2415 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 position today, who would you choose, and Now, here’s what I believe. I don’t be- why? lieve we need a good conservative judge, President Bush. I’m not telling. [Laugh- and I don’t believe we need a good liberal ter] I really don’t have—I haven’t picked judge. I don’t believe we need a good judge anybody yet. Plus, I want them all voting of that kind of definition on either side. for me. [Laughter] I would pick somebody I subscribe to the Justice Potter Stewart who would not allow their personal opinion standard. He was a Justice on the Supreme to get in the way of the law. I would pick Court of the United States, and he said somebody who would strictly interpret the the mark of a good judge, a good Justice, Constitution of the United States. is that when you’re reading their decision, Let me give you a couple of examples, their opinion, you can’t tell if it’s written I guess, of the kind of person I wouldn’t by a man or a woman, a liberal or a con- pick. I wouldn’t pick a judge who said that servative, a Muslim, a Jew, or a Christian. the Pledge of Allegiance couldn’t be said You just know you’re reading a good judi- in a school because it had the words ‘‘under cial decision. God’’ in it. I think that’s an example of What I want to find, if I’m privileged a judge allowing personal opinion to enter to have the opportunity to do it—and the into the decisionmaking process, as opposed Supreme Court of the United States is at to strict interpretation of the Constitution. stake in this race, ladies and gentlemen, Another example would be the Dred the future of things that matter to you in Scott case, which is where judges years ago terms of civil rights, what kind of Justice said that the Constitution allowed slavery Department you’ll have, whether we’ll en- because of personal property rights. That’s force the law, will we have equal oppor- personal opinion. That’s not what the Con- tunity, will women’s rights be protected, stitution says. The Constitution of the will we have equal pay for women, which United States says we’re all—it doesn’t say is going backwards, will a woman’s right that. It doesn’t speak to the equality of to choose be protected. These are constitu- America. tional rights, and I want to make sure we And so I would pick people that would have judges who interpret the Constitution be strict constructionists. We’ve got plenty of the United States according to the law. of lawmakers in Washington, DC. Legisla- Mr. Gibson. Going to go to the final tors make law. Judges interpret the Con- two questions, now. And the first one will stitution. And I suspect one of us will have be for Senator Kerry, and this comes from a pick at the end of next year—next 4 Sarah Degenhart. years. And that’s the kind of judge I’m going to put on there—no litmus test ex- Federal Funding of Abortions cept for how they interpret the Constitu- Sarah Degenhart. Senator Kerry, suppose tion. you are speaking with a voter who believed Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and abortion is murder, and the voter asked a half. for reassurance that his or her tax dollars Senator Kerry. Thank you, Charlie. A would not go to support abortion. What few years ago, when he came to office, would you say to that person? the President said—these are his words— Senator Kerry. I would say to that person ‘‘What we need are some good conservative exactly what I will say to you right now. judges on the courts.’’ And he said also First of all, I cannot tell you how deeply that his two favorite Justices are Justice I respect the belief about life and when Scalia and Justice Thomas. So you get a it begins. I’m a Catholic, raised a Catholic. pretty good sense of where he’s heading I was an altar boy. Religion has been a if he were to appoint somebody. huge part of my life. It helped lead me

2416 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 through a war, leads me today. But I can’t parental notification laws. He’s against take what is an article of faith for me and them. I signed a bill called the Unborn legislate it for someone who doesn’t share Victims of Violence Act. In other words, that article of faith, whether they be agnos- if you’re a mom and you’re pregnant, you tic, atheist, Jew, Protestant, whatever. I get killed, the murderer gets tried for two can’t do that. cases, not just one. My opponent was But I can counsel people. I can talk rea- against that. These are reasonable ways to sonably about life and about responsibility. help promote a culture of life in America. I can talk to people, as my wife, Teresa, I think it is a worthy goal in America does, about making other choices and about to have every child protected by law and abstinence and about all these other things welcomed in life. I also think we ought that we ought to do as a responsible soci- to continue to have good adoption law as ety. But as a President, I have to represent an alternative to abortion. And we need all the people in the Nation, and I have to promote maternity group homes, which to make that judgment. my administration has done. Culture of life Now, I believe that you can take that is really important for a country to have position and not be pro-abortion. But you if it’s going to be a hospitable society. have to afford people their constitutional Thank you. rights. And that means being smart about Mr. Gibson. Senator, do you want to fol- allowing people to be fully educated, to know what their options are in life, and low up? Thirty seconds. making certain that you don’t deny a poor Senator Kerry. Well, again, the President person the right to be able to have what- just said categorically, ‘‘My opponent is ever the Constitution affords them if they against this. My opponent is against that.’’ can’t afford it otherwise. It’s just not that simple. No, I’m not. I’m That’s why I think it’s important. That’s against the partial-birth abortion, but you’ve why I think it’s important for the United got to have an exception for the life of States, for instance, not to have this rigid the mother and the health of the mother ideological restriction on helping families under the strictest test of bodily injury to around the world to be able to make a the mother. Secondly, with respect to pa- smart decision about family planning. You’ll rental notification, I’m not going to require help prevent AIDS. You’ll help prevent un- a 16- or 17-year old kid who’s been raped wanted children, unwanted pregnancies. by her father and who’s pregnant to have You’ll actually do a better job, I think, of to notify her father. So you’ve got to have passing on the moral responsibility that is a judicial intervention. And because they expressed in your question, and I truly re- didn’t have a judicial intervention where spect it. she could go somewhere and get help, I Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and voted against it. It’s never quite as simple a half. as the President wants you to believe. President Bush. Trying to decipher that. Mr. Gibson. And 30 seconds, Mr. Presi- [Laughter] My answer is we’re not going dent. to spend Federal taxpayers’ money on abor- President Bush. It’s pretty simple when tion. This is an issue that divides America, they say, ‘‘Are you for a ban on partial- but certainly reasonable people can agree birth abortion? Yes or no.’’ And he was on how to reduce abortions in America. given a chance to vote, and he voted no. I signed the ban on partial-birth abortion. And that’s just the way it is. That’s a vote. It’s a brutal practice. It’s one way to help It came right up. It’s clear for everybody reduce abortions. My opponent voted to see. And as I said, you can run, but against the ban. I think there ought to be you can’t hide. It’s the reality.

2417 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004

Mr. Gibson. And the final question of Now, you ask what mistakes—I made the evening will be addressed to President some mistakes in appointing people, but Bush, and it will come from Linda Grabel. I’m not going to name them. I don’t want Linda Grabel is over here. to hurt their feelings on national TV. But President Bush. Put a head fake on. history will look back, and I’m fully pre- Mr. Gibson. I got faked out, myself. pared to accept any mistakes that history [Laughter] judges to my administration. Because the President makes the decisions, the Presi- Presidential Decisionmaking/Funding U.S. dent has to take the responsibility. Troops Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and Linda Grabel. President Bush, during the a half. last 4 years, you have made thousands of Senator Kerry. I believe the President decisions that have affected millions of made a huge mistake, a catastrophic mis- lives. Please give three instances in which take, not to live up to his own standard, you came to realize you had made a wrong which was build a true global coalition, give decision, and what you did to correct it. the inspectors time to finish their job, and Thank you. go through the U.N. process to its end President Bush. I have made a lot of and go to war as a last resort. decisions, some of them little, like appoint- I ask each of you just to look into your ments to a board you’ve never heard of, hearts, look into your guts—gut-check time. and some of them big. And in a war, Was this really going to war as a last resort? there’s a lot of tactical decisions that histo- The President rushed our Nation to war rians will look back and say, ‘‘You shouldn’t without a plan to win the peace, and simple have done that. You shouldn’t have made things weren’t done. That’s why Senator that decision.’’ And I’ll take responsibility Lugar says ‘‘incompetent’’ in the delivery for them. I’m human. of services. That’s why Senator Hagel, Re- But on the big questions about whether publican, says, ‘‘beyond pitiful, beyond em- or not we should have gone into Afghani- barrassing, in the zone of dangerous.’’ stan, the big question about whether we We didn’t guard 850,000 tons of ammo. should have removed somebody in Iraq, I’ll That ammo is now being used against our stand by those decisions because I think kids. Ten thousand out of twelve thousand they’re right. That’s really what you’re— Humvees aren’t armored. I’ve visited some when they ask about the mistakes, that’s of those kids with no limbs today because what they’re talking about. They’re trying they didn’t have the armor on those vehi- to say, ‘‘Did you make a mistake going into cles. They didn’t have the right body armor. Iraq?’’ And the answer is absolutely not. I’ve met parents who’ve, on the Internet, It was the right decision. gotten the armor to send their kids. The Duelfer report confirmed that deci- There’s no bigger judgment for a Presi- sion today, because what Saddam Hussein dent of the United States than how you was doing was trying to get rid of sanctions take a nation to war. And you can’t say, so he could reconstitute a weapons pro- ‘‘Because Saddam might have done it 10 gram, and the biggest threat facing America years from now, that’s a reason.’’ That’s is terrorists with weapons of mass destruc- an excuse. tion. We knew he hated us. We knew he Mr. Gibson. Mr. President. had been a—invaded other countries. We President Bush. He complains about the knew he tortured his own people. fact our troops don’t have adequate equip- On the tax cut, it’s a big decision. I did ment, yet he voted against the $87 billion the right decision. Our recession was one supplemental I sent to the Congress and of the shallowest in modern history. then issued one of the most amazing quotes

2418 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8 in political history: ‘‘I actually did vote for not a country, not an institution. But I the $87 billion, before I voted against it.’’ know, as I think you do, that our country Saddam Hussein was a risk to our coun- is strongest when we lead the world, when try, ma’am. And he was a risk that—and we lead strong alliances. And that’s the way this is where we just have a difference of Eisenhower and Reagan and Kennedy and opinion. The truth of the matter is, if you others did it. We are not doing that today. listen carefully: Saddam would still be in We need to. power if he were the President of the I have a plan that will help us go out United States, and the world would be ‘‘a and kill and find the terrorists, and I will lot better off.’’ not stop in our effort to hunt down and Mr. Gibson. And Senator Kerry, 30 sec- kill the terrorists. But I also have a better onds. plan on how we’re going to deal with Iraq, Senator Kerry. Not necessarily be in training the Iraqi forces more rapidly, get- power. But here’s what I’ll say about the ting our allies back to the table with a 87 billion: I made a mistake in the way fresh start, with new credibility, with a I talked about it. He made a mistake in President whose judgment the rest of the invading Iraq. Which is a worse decision? world trusts. Now, I voted the way I voted because In addition to that, I believe we have I saw that he had the policy wrong, and a crisis here at home, a crisis of the middle I wanted accountability. I didn’t want to class that is increasingly squeezed, health give a slush fund to Halliburton. I also care costs going up. I have a plan to pro- thought the wealthiest people in America vide health care to all Americans. I have ought to pay for it, ladies and gentlemen. a plan to provide for our schools so we He wants your kids to pay for it. I wanted keep the standards, but we help our teach- us to pay for it, since we’re at war. I don’t ers teach and elevate our schools by fund- think that’s a bad decision. ing No Child Left Behind. I have a plan to protect the environment so that we leave Closing Statements this place in better shape to our children Mr. Gibson. That’s going to conclude the than we were handed it by our parents. questioning. We’re going to go now to clos- That’s the test. ing statements, 2 minutes from each can- I believe America’s best days are ahead didate. And the first closing statement goes of us. I’m an optimist. But we have to to Senator Kerry. I believe that was the make the right choices, to be fiscally re- agreement. sponsible and to create the new jobs of President Bush. Go ahead. Actually—— the future. We can do this. And I ask you Senator Kerry. You want to go first? for the privilege of leading our Nation to President Bush. Either way. [Laughter] be stronger at home and respected again Senator Kerry. Thank you. Charlie, thank in the world. you. And thank you all. Thank you, all of Thank you. you, for taking part; thanks for your ques- Mr. Gibson. Senator. And a closing state- tions tonight very, very much. ment from President Bush. Obviously, the President and I both have President Bush. Charlie, thanks. Thank very strong convictions. I respect him for you all very much. It’s been enjoyable. that, but we have a very different view The great contest for the Presidency is about how to make America stronger and about the future, who can lead, who can safer. I will never cede the authority of get things done. We’ve been through a lot our country or our security to any other together as a country, been through a re- nation. I’ll never give a veto of American cession, corporate scandals, war. And yet, security to any other entity, not a nation, think about where we are. We added 1.9

2419 Oct. 8 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 million new jobs over the past 13 months. these citizens of the St. Louis area who The farm income in America is high. Small asked the questions, who gave so willingly businesses are flourishing. Homeownership of their time, and who took their responsi- rate is at an alltime high in America. We’re bility very seriously. Thank you also to ev- on the move. eryone at Washington. I want to thank ev- Tonight I had a chance to discuss with eryone at Washington University in St. you what to do to keep this economy going: Louis for being such gracious hosts. Keep the taxes low, don’t increase the I’m Charles Gibson from ABC News. scope of the Federal Government, keep From St. Louis, good night. regulations down, legal reform, a health care policy that does not empower the Fed- eral Government but empowers individuals, NOTE: The debate began at 8:02 p.m. in the and an energy plan that will help us be- Field House at Washington University. In his come less dependent on foreign sources of remarks, the President referred to former energy. Democratic Presidential candidate Howard And abroad, we’re at war, and it requires Dean; Finance Minister Adil Abd al-Mahdi a President who is steadfast and strong and of the Iraqi Interim Government; Prime determined. I vowed to the American peo- Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; ple after that fateful day of September the Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy; 11th that we would not rest nor tire until Chairman Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian we’re safe. The 9/11 Commission put out Authority; Gen. Tommy R. Franks, USA a report that said America is safer, but not (Ret.), former combatant commander, U.S. yet safe. There’s more work to be done. Central Command; Chairman Kim Chong- We’ll stay on the hunt on Al Qaida. We’ll il of North Korea; President Aleksander deny sanctuary to these terrorists. We’ll Kwasniewski of Poland; and Grant E. make sure they do not end up with weap- Milliron, president, Milliron Iron & Metal, ons of mass destruction. The great nexus, Inc. The President also referred to the Na- the great threat to our country is that these tional Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon haters end up with weapons of mass de- the United States (9/11 Commission). Sen- struction. ator Kerry referred to Marc Racicot, former But our long-term security depends on chairman, Republican National Committee; our deep faith in liberty. We’ll continue Usama bin Laden, leader of the Al Qaida ter- to promote freedom around the world. rorist organization; Charles Duelfer, Special Freedom is on the march. Tomorrow Af- Advisor to the Director of Central Intel- ghanistan will be voting for a President. ligence; King Abdullah II of Jordan; Gen. In Iraq, we’ll be having free elections, and Eric K. Shinseki, USA (Ret.), former Army a free society will make this world more Chief of Staff; Hans Blix, former Executive peaceful. Chairman, United Nations Monitoring, God bless. Verification, and Inspection Commission Mr. Gibson. Mr. President and Senator (UNMOVIC); Lt. Gen. Edward Baca (Ret.), Kerry. That concludes tonight’s debate. former chief, National Guard Bureau; and I want to give you a reminder that the actors Michael J. Fox and Christopher third and final debate, on issues of domes- Reeve. Senator Kerry also referred to the tic policy, will be held next Wednesday, ‘‘Comprehensive Report of the Special Advi- October 13th, at Arizona State University sor to the DCI on Iraq’s WMD,’’ issued Sep- in Tempe, Arizona, hosted by Bob Schieffer tember 30. The names of participants who of CBS News. asked questions of the candidates were taken I want to thank President Bush and Sen- from the transcript produced by the Com- ator Kerry for tonight. I want to thank mission on Presidential Debates.

2420 Administration of George W. Bush, 2004 / Oct. 8

Remarks at a Presidential Debate Watch Party in Ballwin, Missouri October 8, 2004

The President. Thank you all for coming. We had a good debate tonight. There’s Thanks for staying up so late. Anybody got clear differences of opinion. One thing I any questions? [Laughter] hope you could tell is I know what I be- Audience member. We love Laura! lieve. I know why I need to lead this coun- The President. Thank you all for coming. try to make this world a safer place and Laura said, ‘‘Don’t talk too long tonight.’’ a more hopeful place for every American— [Laughter] I said, ‘‘Okay.’’ [Laughter] But for every single American. I do want to thank you all very much. Our dream is for America to fulfill its There’s no doubt in my mind, with your promise for every single person who lives help, we’ll carry Missouri again and win here. There’s no doubt in my mind, over in November. the next 4 years this world will be a safer So tonight I was telling the people why place, that we’ll achieve the peace that we I think they ought to put me back in there long for, for our children and grand- for 4 more years, but I didn’t get the line children, and that the great promise of I really wanted to say, which was that the America, the great hope of our great coun- main reason to put me back in was so try will be extended to every corner of this that Laura would be the First Lady for great land. 4 more years. I can’t thank you all enough for being Audience members. Laura! Laura! Laura! here. Audience member. We love you, Laura! Audience member. Thank you! The President. Tomorrow morning, I’m The President. May God bless you, and waking up first thing in the morning to may God continue to bless our country. help the next Governor of Missouri, Matt Thank you all. Blunt, and the next Lieutenant Governor of Missouri, Peter Kinder. I want to thank them both. See you in the morning. I’ll see you in the morning. Make sure the NOTE: The President spoke at 10:26 p.m. at eggs aren’t runny. [Laughter] the Greensfelder Recreation Complex. In his Then we’re off to Iowa, then Minnesota. remarks, he referred to Missouri Secretary I’m fired up. I’m looking forward to this. of State Matt Blunt, candidate for Missouri I thank all the candidates who are here. Governor; and Missouri State Senator Peter I really want to thank those of you who Kinder, candidate for Missouri Lieutenant are putting up the signs and making the Governor. A tape was not available for phone calls and doing all the work. verification of the content of these remarks.

Statement on the Terrorist Attacks in Egypt October 8, 2004

I condemn in the strongest possible children, the terrorists have shown their terms the vicious terrorist attacks in Egypt total contempt for all human life and for yesterday. By targeting Muslims and Jews, all human values. These acts show yet again Egyptians and Israelis, and women and why the civilized world must stand together

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