House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee

Work of the Police and Crime Commissioners in Wales

Oral and written evidence

11 July 2013

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 10 July 2012

HC 532-i Published on 3 March 2014 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £6.00

The Welsh Affairs Committee

The Welsh Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales (including relations with the National Assembly for Wales).

Current membership David T.C. Davies MP (Conservative, Monmouth) (Chair) Guto Bebb MP (Conservative, Aberconwy) Geraint Davies MP (Labour, Swansea West) Glyn Davies MP (Conservative, Montgomeryshire) Stephen Doughty MP (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth) Nia Griffith MP (Labour, Llanelli) Simon Hart MP (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) Mrs Siân C. James MP (Labour, Swansea East) Karen Lumley MP (Conservative, Redditch) Jessica Morden MP (Labour, Newport East) Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Arfon) Mr Mark Williams MP (Liberal Democrat, Ceredigion)

The following Members were also members of the Committee during this Parliament

Stuart Andrews MP (Conservative, Pudsey) Alun Cairns MP (Conservative, Vale of Glamorgan) Jonathan Edwards MP (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Susan Elan Jones MP (Labour, Clwyd South) Owen Smith MP (Labour, Pontypridd) Robin Walker MP (Conservative, Worcester)

Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via www.parliament.uk

Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/welshcom

The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in printed volumes.

Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee is Marek Kubala (Clerk), Anwen Rees (Committee Specialist), Alison Mara (Senior Committee Assistant), Baris Tufekci (Committee Assistant), and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Welsh Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3264; and the Committee’s email address is [email protected]

List of witnesses

Thursday 11 July 2013 Page

Sophie Howe, Deputy PCC, South Wales, Ian Johnston QPM, Gwent, Winston Roddick, CB, QC, PCC, North Wales and Christopher Salmon, PCC Dyfed-Powys. Ev 1

List of written evidence

1 Christopher Salmon, Police and Crime Commissioner for Dyfed-Powys Ev 12 2 Winston Roddick QC CM, Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales Ev 12 3 Letter from Chair to Winston Roddick QC CM, dated 16 October 2013 Ev 14 4 Letter from Winston Roddick QC CM to Chair, dated 28 October 2013 Ev 15 5 Ian Johnston QPM, Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent Ev 15 6 Letter from Chair to Ian Johnston QPM, dated 12 November 2013 Ev 16 7 Letter from Ian Johnston to QPM to Chair, dated 19 November 2013 Ev 16 8 Alun Michael, Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales Ev 16

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Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee on Thursday 11 July 2013

Members present: David T. C. Davies (Chair)

Stephen Doughty Simon Hart Jonathan Edwards Jessica Morden Nia Griffith ______

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Sophie Howe, Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC), South Wales, Ian Johnston QPM, PCC, Gwent, Winston Roddick CB QC, PCC, North Wales, and Christopher Salmon, PCC, Dyfed-Powys, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: I welcome the commissioners and the There is a recognition that a train is coming down the deputy commissioner and thank them for coming track at a high speed in terms of local authority along this morning. Thank you very much indeed. As funding. So, reductions in police funding, combined there are four of you here and some of the questions with reductions in local authority funding, which are are quite general, it would be helpful if everyone really key in terms of doing things to prevent crime— could be as concise as possible. Otherwise, we are such as social services and various other going to be here for four times as long as probably interventions—and a potential for increased most of us would like to be. community problems, I would say, through welfare I will start with a quick general question. You have reform and other measures, will present a all been in post now for eight months. In no particular particularly challenging— order, how do you see the role of police commissioner developing? What would you say are the key policing Q2 Chair: I could always chuck in this question as a challenges in Wales today? Perhaps I could go from supplementary: why have you been so successful in left to right on the panel. I have quite rightly been cutting crime? advised that I should declare a personal interest that Sophie Howe: There are a range of initiatives that we is a matter of record, and that is that I am special are taking and have been taking over a number of constable. I will start with Ms Howe, if I may. years. I think that the partnership working that we Sophie Howe: We have had quite a challenging time, have been doing is really bearing fruit. We are in that the elections were in November and, very absolutely determined. We do not see reductions in quickly after that, there was a need to set a precept funding as an excuse for not performing well, and we and to develop the police and crime reduction plan. In will continue to do that. I think that the point that I the normal course of events, we would have wanted am making is that there will come a point, and I think to have a much greater opportunity for consultation that that point is probably not far off, where something on those things, although we did our best to engage that is very challenging might become near with a large number of communities and stakeholders impossible. in that process. We have established a police and crime reduction plan Q3 Chair: Mr Johnston, do you have any thoughts that has 15 priorities in south Wales. We are quite on the main challenges? pleased with it. We are still developing the specific Ian Johnston: Good morning, Mr Davies. Good actions around the fairly high-level priorities in the morning, everyone. I will try not to repeat some of plan. the items that Sophie has already covered. The plan, The precept was slightly contentious in south Wales, yes, is a big challenge for all of us, given the but we needed to take the decisions that we did timescales. I think that a bigger challenge, really, was because of reductions in funding from the Home getting people to understand, internally and externally, Office, and because, historically, South Wales Police the change in the governance landscape. That has been has had a very low precept base. The police and crime easier for some than for others, but I do stress that is panel voted on that 10 to two, so it went through. both internal and external. I think it is also about In terms of the challenges, the cuts are extremely trying to get out and about as much as possible to challenging for us, particularly in what a lot of people address some of the less positive stories in the media are defining as a perfect storm, in that the cuts are not about the introduction of PCCs. just hitting the police, although they are hitting the Winston Roddick: [Translation.] Thank you very police substantially. To a certain extent, the other much, Chair, for the invitation to be here today on a public sector partners in Wales have had some significant occasion in the history of the protection from the Welsh Government, so I am commissioners. This is the best platform to give an talking about local authorities in particular, which are explanation of what our functions are and what faces key partners of ours. us as challenges. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Ev 2 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon

There have been many challenges, but I think, without for commissioners and chief constables should be and repeating anything that has come from my colleagues, is, ‘Would having one police force make it any more that the greatest challenge for me has been the novelty difficult to achieve the principal statutory duty, and/or newness of the role. It is an unprecedented namely providing an effective and efficient police constitutional role and, because it is unprecedented, I force?’ If it would not, there is no reason why you have no-one to turn to that I can ask, ‘How did you should not have one. If it would, that is a reason for do this yesterday?’, for I have no yesterdays to look not having it. to. That has been the greatest challenge. That has Chair: I will turn next to Simon Hart. We are caused me to tread very carefully in the first six generally going to try to ask specific questions to months, because I have to scope the role and try to specific commissioners so that we can ensure that the understand it. The Act gives minimal guidance as to time is used effectively. Please do not take offence, what the requirements of the role are. It tells you that but if somebody is desperate to come in on a particular you have to publish budgets and things like that, but point, please catch my eye. it does not tell you very much more. You have to breathe it for a long time, and I have been trying to Q5 Simon Hart: My first question is a general one. do that. You might want to name the appropriate Creating new relationships is also a major challenge. commissioner to answer it. You cannot walk into a police headquarters and start Chair: I will see which one looks most enthusiastic. throwing your weight about. You have to walk gently [Laughter.] into the relationship and respect those persons who Simon Hart: Turning the clock back a bit, the have been there for some time. My chief constable is elections were a pretty underwhelming experience for a man of standing and reputation, known to his everybody who was involved in them. It would be community—not to me, but to his community. It is for interesting to hear, now that we are a few months in, me to demonstrate to the community what I am made what you think you should be doing to energise and of and to try to create that relationship with the chief enthuse people to turn out in greater numbers when constable and others. That is what I have done and it the opportunity comes around again in a few years’ has worked, I think. We have a good, trusting time. relationship. It will not compromise me if I have to Chair: The lowest turnouts were in Gwent, followed exercise my power and my authority, but it is an by south Wales, so perhaps we should hear from that excellent relationship. side of the panel. Christopher Salmon: Good morning. I do not want to Ian Johnston: I think that we tipped the headlines repeat what has been said. The challenges fall into for a number of reasons. The difference in turnout in two parts. There are the challenges of the role, and percentage terms is not huge. It was roughly the they are the challenges of the fact that it is a new role same—14 to 15%. We got the headlines because, and there is a need to raise its public profile and apparently, in Bettws in Newport, no-one turned out explain it, the duties that we have to perform, which at all. So, that featured in most of the tabloids. It is Sophie has explained, and getting to know the not about apportioning blame, but the Government of organisations for which we became responsible in the day, I think, did not make a particularly good job November. That is a critical part of it. Then there are of informing the public what it was about and who the challenges of policing, which you referred to in they should vote for. The biggest complaint that I got your question. I would say that they are the challenges from people in Gwent after the election was, ‘If I’d that will occupy us, or at least will occupy me, for the known more about it, then I would’ve been inclined course of my tenure. I think that there are challenges to go out to vote, but I didn’t’. From the independent of culture within the police, and they are the candidates’ point of view, there is the financial aspect challenges of introducing a greater public focus to to this in terms of people applying or thinking about how the police operate and the service that they putting themselves forward. There is a £5,000 deposit, provide. Of course, there is the challenge of the fact which some political parties paid. Independent that the pot of money that we have to fund all of that candidates paid that sum themselves, albeit they got it is smaller. I think that the greater challenge is to do back if they received sufficient votes. Then there was with structures, organisation and culture. That is what, the issue of campaign material, which, in my case, predominantly, I am going to be focusing on. cost me over £4,000, and that is money that has gone. Next time around, the Government, whatever colour Q4 Chair: Could I ask any of you whether it would it may be, needs to put that information out. now be possible to create a single police for Wales? It was being mooted a few years ago. Is that completely Q6 Simon Hart: That is an interesting point. So, in impossible now because, at the end of the day, dare I terms of what you are doing now and what you see say it, three out of the four of you would lose your yourself doing in the next couple of years, do you jobs if that suggestion were to go ahead? [Laughter.] think that that aspect of it—getting the general public Christopher Salmon: Anything is possible. I think it better informed, more aware of the role, the value that would be very difficult. It would be even more it might bring to the community, your own personal undesirable. It was tried or looked at a few years ago credibility—is your job, or do you think it is the at great expense and with very little output. I think Government’s job? To what extent can you do that? that it would be a big mistake on a number of levels. Ian Johnston: I think that your question was in two Winston Roddick: From me you would get an parts: the election itself and the organisation of it. The independent answer, and it is this: the single question jury is now out. It is up to us to say to people, ‘We cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon are making a difference; this is a better system, and The party element is the values that you bring to the it is more accountable and public-focused’, and then role. I am a Conservative police and crime people will have the chance to make up their mind commissioner because I have broadly Conservative come 2016. values. I believe that boundaries matter, that crime is a choice, and that crime is the wrong choice and Q7 Jessica Morden: I have just a general point. Do should carry consequences. These are points of you see yourself as politicians? One of the arguments principle. I am not a Conservative police and crime that was put forward against having police commissioner because I only represent people who commissioners at the time—and I think that we argued vote Conservative. That is absolutely not the case. strongly for the public awareness stuff when it came That is the value of the oath of allegiance: in taking in—was that police commissioners might concentrate up the office, you make the oath that you will on concerns that the public see, maybe at the expense represent all those people in the area that you of unseen policing. At a time of extremely limited represent. The value of the party label is that the resources, is there a worry that promising somebody people who voted for you—or, equally, the ones who an extra school patrol might then be to the detriment did not vote for you—know roughly what you stand of a major undercover drugs operation? That is the for. Come the next election, there is a degree of kind of point I would like to explore. accountability in that label, in that if you have not Sophie Howe: That has not been my experience in performed as they expect, they can choose someone south Wales. I would agree with some points made in else. I am sure that there will be a difference of the answer to the first question and, picking up on opinion here on this issue, but I frankly think that if yours, Jessica, I would agree with a lot of the points you are elected and you make decisions about taxation that Ian made. Going forward, we are, certainly in spending, you are a politician and you should be south Wales—and I know that the other honest and upfront about that. commissioners are as well—making real active efforts to engage with individual communities and with other Q9 Simon Hart: Is it fair to say that, because you partners. So, we are all getting invitations to speak at cannot be whipped and you cannot be promoted, you lots of different conferences, events and various are slightly different from a normal—[Interruption.] things, where the profile of police commissioners is Christopher Salmon: Well, we are not MPs. There being raised. I feel that there is a lot of interest in the are a number of very unusual and, frankly, very role. In addition, we have funding responsibilities, in interesting aspects to this, in terms of its constitutional terms of funding for other partners. Increasingly, position. The first point is that you can only stand within community safety partnerships and individual twice, so you cannot build a career as a police and community groups that might be applying for funding, crime commissioner beyond those eight years, as most there is an awareness of the role of police and crime politicians can do. Secondly, you are not whipped, so commissioners, and of how they can make a the party has a relatively limited degree of influence difference through funding and other initiatives that over your behaviour. Thirdly, you have executive they are undertaking within the force for their power and a responsibility for budgets, employment communities. While I would agree with the points and so on, and the delivery of something. Ultimately, about the election, and with the fact that other issues you will be judged on that much more than you will around having a November election and those sorts of ever be judged by any party hierarchy. That is a very things are problematic, I think that we will see a better powerful and direct form of accountability to the turnout at the next election. people who matter: that is, the voters. In many ways, To pick up again on your point, Jess, regarding my it is a very powerful model that should be looked at experience of our own force and the commissioners more widely, in terms of local government. We are in Wales, whom I obviously know best, it has not been very different beasts to MPs, and it will be interesting reactive, in terms of having an extra police school to see how behaviours change as a result. patrol or anything like that, to use your example. The commissioners are taking their more strategic role Q10 Simon Hart: Winston Roddick, you hit the very seriously, and they are having to because of the headlines by standing as an independent and then challenges in front of them. coming out as a Liberal Democrat just before the election. On reflection, was that a sensible thing to do? Q8 Simon Hart: Sticking with the party political Winston Roddick: It is not correct to say that I then element of this, I have a question initially for came out with that, as if I was revealing something Christopher Salmon and then for Winston Roddick. that was not well known; it had been well known for Mr Salmon, on the party political element, you fought about 40 years in north Wales. I would like to address the election as a Conservative, and then you swore an the point about what the rules say. The rules are allegiance of impartiality once you had won the absolutely clear, and you had the opportunity to mould election. How easy has it been to square the party and influence the rules because they all came before political allegiance with the impartiality requirement? you during the passage of the Act. Christopher Salmon: Yes, I stood on a Conservative The rules are quite clear to the effect that party ticket. I never apologised for that, and I do not revoke candidates can use a party name or description as long it, having stood. It is like any election, really. You are as it is approved by a certificate of authorisation from voted in on a party ticket, and then, when you take up the party. However, the rules state that others can use a ministerial or any other office, you act in the best ‘independent’ or leave that section blank. So, the rules interests of the people for whom you are responsible. are quite clear. 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Ev 4 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon to be supported by, or be associated with, a political Q14 Chair: Ms Howe, I believe that you have stood, campaign to say that they were independent of those or have tried to stand, as a Labour candidate for the influences. So, it is perfectly square with the rules and next election. Are you comfortable that you can regulation. That just deals with the legality point. maintain impartiality politically while seeking Going back to your earlier question about turnout, the election as a Labour politician? turnout in north Wales was probably the best turnout Sophie Howe: I am not seeking election as a Labour in the whole of the country. Llangefni, for example, politician. I was in for a parliamentary selection, that had the best turnout in the whole of England and has concluded and I am not the candidate. I just want Wales. In Gwynedd, the turnout was nearly 18% in to be clear about that. Anglesey. That is because that is where I come from, it is where I have been practising as a barrister, it is Q15 Chair: You were the deputy while you were where I have been sitting judicially, it is where I was trying to become the candidate, were you not? born and brought up, it is where my wife was born Sophie Howe: Yes, but the process has concluded and and brought up and my family still lives there. So, I I have not been selected. am very well known. I have stood as a candidate there in general elections. Q16 Chair: Do you have any intention of standing at Chair: As you did in Newport once. the next election in 2015 as a Labour candidate? Winston Roddick: Yes, I stood in Newport. Sophie Howe: I cannot foretell politics; it changes Mr Hart: The turnout question— every week, does it not, as I am sure you well know? Winston Roddick: Would you like me to answer the So, I cannot say categorically what I will or will not question, in fairness, because you raised this point of do. I do not think that it affects my impartiality. The whether I did what it was right to do? commissioner is elected, sometimes on a party ticket, Added to that, during the election campaign, each one and the role of the deputy is very clearly not of my opponents knew that I had been, or was then, a politically restricted. So, I do not really see that it is member of the Lib Dems. At each public meeting at any different to the leader of a council, for example, which they were present, they mentioned that. Also, seeking a parliamentary or Assembly selection or any on the Jason Mohammad radio programme, I was other office. asked whether I was a member of the Lib Dems and I said that I was. So, it was well known before I stood, Q17 Jonathan Edwards: One of the concerns, as it was well known during the campaign and therefore other members of the committee have outlined, about I did perfectly right. the whole process of creating the police commissioners was that it was going to politicise the Q11 Simon Hart: The point is that considerable police. That is why my party did not stand in an media attention was drawn to this; it was the subject election and why I did not vote for the first time since of a ten-minute rule Bill, not naming you, in the reaching voting age. Sorry about that, Christopher. House of Commons. There was clearly local [Laughter.] How do you think it looks to the public controversy about this. Do you regret the manner in outside when someone is appointed to a very senior which it was handled by you at that time? If it was as position within the new framework, then seeks straightforward as you suggest, nobody, including the nomination for a parliamentary constituency and then media, would have taken any notice. The fact was that goes back to the other job when they do not get that it generated a certain amount of distrust and confusion nomination? Do you share some concerns that some around that time. Would you do the same thing again? people might have that it is overtly politicising the Winston Roddick: The opportunity was there to police? comply with the rule, and I complied with the rule Sophie Howe: When you hold elections that expressly and explicitly. The ten-minute rule was politicians can stand in to become police there in order to change these rules, but, if it was commissioners, it is a political role, is it not? What thought to have been a good point, you could have makes it different is that there is a clear line between changed these rules during the Bill stages of the Act. the commissioner’s role and the operational Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Roddick. Briefly, independence of the police. Certainly, within the south Mr Doughty. Wales force area, we have a very good relationship with the chief constable, but we are very clear about Q12 Stephen Doughty: Are you still a member of that line between our role and the operational the Liberal Democrats? independence of the force. In that sense, I do not think Winston Roddick: No. that it is politicising the police, although you do have a level of political scrutiny that is now taking place Q13 Stephen Doughty: Would you stand as an within the force. independent or a Lib Dem next time, if you were to stand again? Q18 Jonathan Edwards: That is not exactly my Winston Roddick: I am not going to foretell what I question. I am asking you how you think people on am going to do in the future. However, as far as the the outside interpret such activities. That is the key past is concerned, I was then, but I am not now—and point rather than the reality. I am not now only because it proved to be, as you Sophie Howe: I think that they interpret those said, a major distraction from the importance of the activities in the same way as they would interpret the job. leader of a council or a member of an Assembly cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon

Member’s or MP’s support staff standing for election. Home Affairs Select Committee last week, a statement I do not see that there is a particular issue. was made by the former chief constable stating that no previous meetings had been held. I am now in the Q19 Chair: Mr Johnston, did you have something to process of providing a chronology of all of the add as an independent? meetings that were held, not only with me on a one- Ian Johnston: I have been very quiet on most of the to-one basis, but also when other people were present, questions. You will be surprised to know that I have when issues were raised and when robust a view on this. In Gwent, I stood on a ticket of conversations were had. It should not have come as keeping politics out of policing to address the very any surprise on 23 May that I spoke to the chief issue that has been raised here by Mr Edwards. Most constable about the issues that had arisen during the people that I spoke to during the election asked, ‘How previous settlement. can we have politicians standing, or standing on a political ticket, because then they will be answerable Q23 Nia Griffith: When you spoke to the Home either to Cardiff or Westminster?’ I am answerable to Affairs Committee, and also when you had talks with the people of Gwent. That said, you cannot work in some of my colleagues here, you mentioned a this environment and ignore the politics. To answer document that the chief constable had written, Jessica Morden’s question, I do not see myself as a discussing whether senior officers could have contact politician, but I am very much working in a political with you. I believe that you offered to provide a copy landscape. It is important for the people of Gwent that of that document. When will we be able to have that? I have a professional and working relationship with Ian Johnston: That document will be sent to the MPs, AMs, councils and so on. That is what we have Home Affairs Select Committee. You may wish to to work towards. However, I think that it is easier, note—and I am sure that you watched the Home as an independent, to be able to say to the public, ‘I Affairs Select Committee meeting—that the chief am impartial’. constable actually admitted to the committee that she did issue the written instruction and the verbal Q20 Chair: Mr Johnston, you have certainly been in instruction. the press a lot recently. I will now turn to Nia Griffith who would like to put a few questions specifically to Q24 Nia Griffith: We are simply asking you whether you, sir. you would be able to provide that for us. Ian Johnston: Yes, we can. However, I would ask Q21 Nia Griffith: Good morning, Mr Johnston. I you also to note that, for the first time, last Tuesday, would like to ask you what consultations you had with the chief constable admitted on television in front of your police and crime panel before you issued the the Home Affairs Select Committee that she did issue ultimatum to your chief constable to either retire or an instruction during the first week that I took up post face the sack. that no-one was to have any contact with me, and Ian Johnston: I will be as concise as I can. First of that, if they did, they would be subject to disciplinary all, there was no ultimatum. That is the first thing. procedures—not a terribly helpful way to go about That is a word that the local media has picked up on. business. You probably know that I spent some time with the Home Affairs Select Committee last week, and this question was at the nub of what everyone wanted to Q25 Nia Griffith: It has obviously hit the media, and know. If I had spoken to the police and crime panel there has been a lot of talk about this. Do you feel before we had entered the formal process under the that that is helpful in terms of the overall impression Act, I would have been in breach of the law. So, when of police commissioner relationships with chief I spoke to the chief constable on 23 May, I said, ‘I constables, and do you think that there are lessons to would like you to think about retirement; however, I be learned from these experiences? need to be honest with you and upfront, so I am telling Ian Johnston: Thank you for that question, because you that I am going to move to the formal process’. we do need to set this in context. The overwhelming During that formal process, there is a role for the majority of police and crime commissioners and chief police and crime panel; before the formal process, constables are getting on with it, and are getting on there is not a role for the panel. It is not about being well. I particularly like the model in south Wales and rude or disrespectful to the panel. If I had spoken to the phrases that Alun Michael uses, where he and the the panel, it would have been an abuse of process. chief go forward on a ‘no surprises’ policy. That is great, because, in my time in Gwent, in the first seven Q22 Nia Griffith: Can you tell us, then, what months, every day there was a surprise. disciplinary actions you had been instigating against the chief constable before 23 May? In most forms of Q26 Nia Griffith: Can we perhaps refer to the issue employment, there are warnings, more serious of operational independence? Are there perhaps not warnings and a number of steps before you get to a sufficient definitions of what that means? Is there situation where you are, effectively, trying to sack confusion in people’s minds? How would you see the somebody. Can you tell us about those steps that you problem having arisen in your instance? took and what warnings you gave her? Ian Johnston: For the record, can we get it absolutely Ian Johnston: Okay. May I say that some of the straight that not once was operational independence words are not terribly helpful, because there was no raised as an issue in the Gwent case? Not once. So, sacking? The chief constable decided to retire. At the there were no issues relating to disagreement about cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Ev 6 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon operational independence. It was about the role of the the senior staff, and the chief constable decided to take police and crime commissioner. that date out of my diary, although the meeting still went ahead. Q27 Nia Griffith: So, can you explain why you felt Chair: Perhaps Mr Doughty would like to talk to that it was necessary to speak in the way that you did other commissioners about it. on 23 May to the chief constable? Ian Johnston: It was because all other attempts to Q30 Stephen Doughty: I would indeed. Thank you, reason with the individual had failed. As I have said Chair. Mr Roddick, you, as I understand, still practise previously, do you really think that I would speak to as a barrister. Is that correct? the chief constable on 23 May without having Winston Roddick: No, it is not. volumes of written evidence ready for when we entered the formal process? You may also wish to Q31 Stephen Doughty: Have you done so at any consider one other question, with respect: why did the time during your time as police and crime chief constable not decide to enter the formal process? commissioner? Chair: I will bring in Mr Doughty. Winston Roddick: No. I wish there was the time, but there is not and I do not. Q28 Stephen Doughty: Mr Johnston, you have quite clearly declared a couple of times what your slogan Q32 Stephen Doughty: I ask that because, in the was during the election, which was to ‘keep politics submission that we have had from all four out of policing’. However, other observers might say commissioners regarding salaries and the amount of that what you have done is to bring internal police time per week spent on the work, we have a big blank politics back into policing, rather than party politics. in the weekly hours that you spend on the role in your If I recall, you served as head of CID in the Gwent section. So, I was wondering how much time you force and were an officer there for a number of years. spend a week as a commissioner. Do you not think that there is a fundamental problem Winston Roddick: Thank you very much for the here with former police officers, rather than opportunity to answer that very important question. It politicians, serving as an oversight over the force of will answer your first question as to whether there is which they were once a member? time for anything else in this world at the moment Ian Johnston: Thank you for the question. I think that apart from being a police commissioner. Without it depends on who you ask. There are some people exception, I work more than 40 hours a week. I very who are troubled by the fact that former Members of frequently work more than 50 hours a week and I Parliament are now acting as PCCs. I think that it is regularly work more than 60 hours a week. good to put it into the context that I, in fact, moved Chair: Similar to an MP’s working hours. [Laughter.] away in 2004 to work on a national stage with the Winston Roddick: Yes. Whenever I say that to MPs, superintendents association and then had two years’ MPs say, ‘So do we’. In answer to your question, there retirement. So, I have not actually been with the force is no time for anything else. To go back to the earlier for nine years. I have worked very little with any of point I made about the newness of the post, that is a the senior team, so, there should not be any doubt major challenge and it is absorbing all of our time. I there. If you do not mind me saying so, Mr Doughty, think that I can speak for all of the commissioners during the campaign, one particular party made a big in that regard—certainly the Welsh commissioners; I play about retired police officers—not senior police cannot speak for the others. officers—not being able to go back into the force because they would be too close to the force to hold Q33 Stephen Doughty: it to account. Those people are really quiet at the Where do you live, Mr minute and I am not hearing much from them. Roddick? Winston Roddick: Caernarfon. Q29 Jonathan Edwards: [Translation.] If I may ask a question in Welsh, Mr Johnston, it seems from the Q34 Stephen Doughty: You live in Caernarfon. You outside, to expand on Stephen’s question, that your do not have a home in Cardiff at all? former working relationship with the chief constable Winston Roddick: I have homes in various parts of had coloured your actions after the change. Is that the country because I have practised in various parts the truth? of the country, but my home is, was, always will be Ian Johnston: Again, to put this matter in context, I Caernarfon. had never previously worked with the chief constable. So, I entered into this job in November. Where we Q35 Stephen Doughty: How much of an average live in Wales, you will have heard different things, but week would you say you spend in north Wales versus I entered the job to work closely and professionally Cardiff and travelling around, if you have these with the chief constable on behalf of the people of multiple properties? Are you full time in north Wales, Gwent and to take that forward. As I outlined to Ms or are you spending time in Cardiff still? Griffith, it was not a terribly auspicious start with the Winston Roddick: Well, I am in Cardiff today to see instruction to the staff not to speak. You may want to you. ask the other commissioners how they would have dealt with that. Similarly, within the first week of being in office, there was a date in the diary for the Q36 Stephen Doughty: Obviously, but I am talking commissioner and the chief constable to speak to all about in a normal working week. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon

Winston Roddick: Yesterday, I was staying in London PCCs may decide that certain staff need to be working with my son, because I was before a Minister in directly to them. If that is the case, then the size of London yesterday. The day before that, I was being the staff must, by the very nature of it, grow. addressed by the Home Secretary in London. Therefore, all I am saying to you is, please take into account that they are two different offices. This is not Q37 Stephen Doughty: So, you are generally only in the old police authority office. Cardiff when you have work meetings related to your role as police and crime commissioner? Q41 Jessica Morden: I completely understand that, Winston Roddick: No, I come here to see the rugby and, in fairness to Gwent, you have the staff grades matches as well. listed next to the staff. However, there is a lot of missing information for the other forces, other than Q38 Stephen Doughty: You do not spend any other for Dyfed-Powys. For instance, for south Wales, we time here. You do not spend time here on outside know that there are 15 staff, but the salaries and the interests or any other forms of employment or in an grades are unknown. I do not know whether you advisory capacity or anything such as that? wanted to explain a bit more about that, Sophie? Winston Roddick: No. Sophie Howe: We have published the 15 staff, and we Chair: Thank you very much indeed for that. Mr have published the salaries of senior members of staff. Edwards, did you have any further points on that? I think that that is probably in accordance with the Jonathan Edwards: No, I am fine. practice in other public bodies. Chair: I will turn now to Jessica Morden. Q42 Chair: What about the total staff budget? Q39 Jessica Morden: The public information that is Sophie Howe: The total staff budget? Our best available on each of your office staff and the costs of estimate—and I say best estimate because we have your offices varies widely. So, for Dyfed, we have the been in the process of recruiting, and we are not quite full information on all staff and salaries. For Gwent, sure when people are starting—is that, for this year, it we have a list of staff but not all salaries. For north will be about £922,000, which is roughly the same as Wales, we have the total salary bill, but the number the police authority budget. Just picking up on Ian’s of staff is unknown. For south Wales, we know that points, I think that the approach that we are taking in there are 15 members of staff but there are no details south Wales should reduce the pressure to increase on any salaries. How much does each of your offices commissioner office staff, because our approach is cost and do you think that there should be more very much one of a very good working relationship, transparency about it? and an open-book approach with the force. That Ian Johnston: May I start? Thank you very much for means an open book in terms of access to information, the question. I have my chief executive with me today, and access to services. Therefore, the commissioner you will have noticed, and, with regard to the salaries, and the chief constable—setting aside operational I thought that we had given you full information. If staff—see other resources within the force as being that is not on there, we will look at it. May I make equally available to the two. What we do not want to one point to you, if you do not mind? People are not do—and we are positively avoiding doing—is to comparing apples with apples here, and we need to create a whole new structure within the know that. I can tell you now that no-one in Wales commissioner’s office that mirrors a structure that is has gone silly in terms of an explosion of staff—that within the force. We do not think that that is good in has just not happened. However, the duties in the terms of working relationships or in terms of value office of the police and crime commissioner are for money. significantly different from the role of the police authority. Therefore, to try to compare the old police Q43 Jessica Morden: I have one more question. authority office with the OPCC now is not fair. As Would you all be willing to provide to us as a time goes on, with some of the budgetary committee the full breakdown of all your staff costs, 1 responsibilities being given around commissioning for the four areas? and the like, it will grow. Ian Johnston: May I answer that, now that I have had my briefing note from the chief executive? Q40 Jessica Morden: So, it is more expensive—is Apparently, the chief executive’s salary and the chief that the point? It is a more expensive system. financial officer’s salary are on the website, as required under legislation. Ian Johnston: It is bound to be, because of the nature Jessica Morden: Yes, we have those. of this, but they are not the same jobs. Let me Ian Johnston: The salaries of the other staff are not continue for one minute. One of the other challenges on there currently, because they are not so required. that we have in the next few months is something However, if you are saying that they should be for called stage 2 transfers, where, under the Act, all staff transparency, then I do not have a great problem have been sent across to the police and crime with that. commissioners’ side of the house. We now have to Jessica Morden: I just think that it would be helpful negotiate with the force as to who works in the office to the committee to understand the range. of the police and crime commissioner and who works under the direct control of the chief constable. Q44 Chair: I must say that the most charitable thing Thankfully, we are now getting some help from the that I can think of is that this is all very new at the Home Office, because it was ‘up to you’ three months ago. That has to be done. When that is done, some 1 See supplementary evidence cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Ev 8 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon moment, but I personally think that commissioners Winston Roddick: At that time, I was speaking not as should show the same level of transparency as a police commissioner; I was not a police Members of Parliament. commissioner at the time when that submission was Winston Roddick: Of course. made. As an academic, in a sense, I had been— Chair: I do not see that that is happening entirely at the moment, without singling anyone out. Q50 Chair: Have you changed your mind? Winston Roddick: First, may I answer your question, Winston Roddick: I am sorry? and then I will come perhaps, Chair, to the point that Chair: Have you changed your mind since you you have just made? There is full information on our became a commissioner? website about our staff, and it is complete. It tells Winston Roddick: My position today would be as I you that— explained earlier on. I now have to stand back from that position. I have not changed my mind, but the Q45 Chair: Does that include expenses, travel view that I would express today has to have regard to expenses, mileage—all that kind of thing? the fact that I am a police commissioner. If you were Winston Roddick: I will come to mileage and asking a judge, I think that the judge would take expenses in a moment. I have nine staff, of whom one precisely the same position. The question is this: is on sick leave, three are part-time, and two are would devolving the justice system, including the officers whom I was required by the Act to engage. police system, render it more easy for me to perform So, I have maybe one more than the police authority my principal duty of providing an effective and had. efficient police force for north Wales, giving value for money and reducing crime? If it would be an Q46 Nia Griffith: The point, Chair, is that while impediment to that, I would not be in favour. If it would not be an impediment to that, there is no reason Dyfed-Powys has written down very neatly the exact why it should not take place. However, I need not role and salary for each staff member, with North support it. All I need to do is put forward that Wales, with all due respect, we have total employee argument. wages of £114,000, plus the chief executive’s wages of £75,000. It is not even clear whether these figures Q51 Chair: Would any of the other commissioners are separate or whether that £75,000 is part of the or deputies openly support or oppose devolving £114,000. We also have an ‘unknown’ entry for the powers to the National Assembly? number of staff. So, that is why we do not think that Christopher Salmon: I would oppose it. We are it is as clear and transparent as Dyfed-Powys, which, obliged to have a view on that issue. Whether we end as I said, has written it all down. up on the right or wrong side of the argument is a Winston Roddick: Every effort has been made to be different matter. That is what I have been elected to transparent. It may not be clear in the results, and I do. I am opposed to it because I do not see what it take that point. I will take it home and have a look at adds. What we have in the police and crime it, in order to add clarity where there is insufficient commissioners is an extraordinary amount of clarity. devolution of the governance of policing to politicians elected in Wales, to act on behalf of people in Wales. Q47 Stephen Doughty: To follow up on the Chair’s There is no real decision that could be made by a point, would you all be willing—in the same way that devolved settlement in respect of policing that cannot MPs are expected to do—to publish all of your currently be made by the police and crime expenses and those of your senior staff? Would you commissioners, who are all elected by the people of be willing to do that in terms of travel, Wales to represent their various areas. Indeed, these accommodation and incidental costs? decisions are more devolved than they would be if Winston Roddick: Absolutely. they were just devolved to the Cardiff level. We set Christopher Salmon: We are obliged to. priorities, we set budgets, and we answer to our people. There is a huge danger in splitting police from Q48 Stephen Doughty: You are obliged to. I see. Is the rest of the criminal justice system. The idea of that information all easily available on a website? devolving the whole criminal justice system in Wales Winston Roddick: Periodically. I think that I am up to is fraught with untold difficulties. All that you do is the first two or three months. I am trying to have time add a link in the budget chain between the Home to do it in order. Claiming my expenses was the last Office and the police. Rather than going from the thing that I did because there was a job to be done, Home Office to the police and crime and and the expenses came rather late on my list. commissioner to be spent on policing, it goes from the However, they will be there; you will see every penny Home Office to Cardiff and to the police and crime that I have spent from day one. That information will commissioner. Inevitably, where there is another link, be there, and I agree wholeheartedly that it is a matter there is another loss of money. So, I do not think that of principle that we should publish it, and that what it adds anything at all. we spend should be seen. Q52 Chair: Are there any other very concise views Q49 Chair: Thank you, Mr Roddick. I will now turn on that? to your submission to the Silk commission. You were Winston Roddick: I would like to add to that. I would in favour of devolving the police to the Assembly. On not want you to think that Christopher Salmon was what grounds? speaking on behalf of us all. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon

Chair: Oh, I do not think that at all. Winston Roddick: [Translation.] We are very Winston Roddick: He is speaking for himself. A very concerned, of course. It is a threat to the effectiveness useful paper was published on this by the Association of policing. However, it is not only we, as a public of Chief Police Officers. ACPO takes the position that body, that will have to suffer. Public bodies generally I take on this, and it asks the question that I ask. That across Wales and England have to cope with this, and is the primary question. It addresses it, and in doing that is what we will have to do. What are we going to so, it draws attention to the fact that so much of the do? We are going to change our priorities and ensure work that we do in partnership with others is being that the funds that need to be spent in the appropriate done by partners whose responsibilities have been places are being spent in the appropriate places. So, devolved. Therefore, there is an argument for saying we need to withdraw funding in some areas to ensure that joined-up Government would be enhanced if the that we perform effectively and efficiently in other function of the police were also to be given to the areas. Where need exists, that is where the money is Assembly. That was the blind spot in the argument. supposed to go. That is what is meant by ‘priorities’. Chair: Thank you for that, Mr Roddick. We have None of us is comfortable with the cuts, but we will heard arguments for and against this, and I know that have to cope. there are some other questions. Ian Johnston: I heard the word ‘concise’, so this will Q55 Chair: [Translation.] Have you spoken to your be concise. [Laughter.] former colleagues in the Liberal Democrats, who are Chair: ‘Yes’ or ‘no’ would be concise. imposing these cuts across Britain? Ian Johnston: As for the police being devolved, no. Winston Roddick: [Translation.] No, I have not. If the responsibility for police goes, criminal justice has to go with it, for me. I support the ACPO Wales Q56 Chair: I have heard what Ms Howe has said on document, which is a good document. One other cuts. With respect, I do not want to be biased, but we thing, quickly: we do an awful lot of work with the understand her position. Are there any other Welsh Government currently. The Assembly is comments? therefore quite entitled to ask the following question: Ian Johnston: Interestingly, most of us were with the if that amount of work is increasing, which it is, Home Secretary on Tuesday, when she spoke about should we look again at the question? That needs to the cuts and the effect that we could expect. The be taken into account. reality is that the police service has been cut by 20%, Sophie Howe: Alun’s views are contained in his and now by a further 5%. If one looks at the budget, submission to the Silk commission. They are broadly which is 83% or more for staff, one can see that staff in line with Winston’s, I think. That is, there is a case. have to go, no matter how smart we were, how we It is not without its difficulties, but given that the other looked to work in collaboration as forces, how we key agencies that help to reduce crime are, in the looked to bring about more efficiencies. As a non- main, devolved services, we see that it would make politician, may I make a political point? [Laughter.] sense to devolve policing. Chair: I will let that go, Mr Johnston, because it is 12.05 p.m. Q53 Stephen Doughty: I have a quick question for Ian Johnston: If we continue with this relentless you on budgets, Sophie. You mentioned the perfect drive to reduce recorded crime—and I emphasise the storm and the challenges that you are facing. South words ‘recorded crime’—and that that allows the Wales Police faces some challenges, particularly in Government of the day, of whatever colour, to say, relation to Cardiff. In the spending review, we have ‘No matter how much we cut you, you are cutting seen a 60% reduction to the Home Office budget and, crime; so do the numbers matter?’, then that is the potentially, other pressures and costs being biggest offside trap that I have seen in some time. transferred. Particularly on the issue of policing for Cardiff as a capital city, what discussions have you Q57 Chair: Does this mean that, if recorded crime had with the Home Office or others about special falls in Gwent, when you go back to the electorate in allowances or additional support being made a few years’ time, you will actually be saying that you available? I understand that Edinburgh, Belfast and have failed? London get that support, but Cardiff does not, despite Ian Johnston: May I say to you, Mr Davies, as a the number of major events that it holds. member of the community in Gwent, that I expect our Sophie Howe: You are absolutely right, and Alun has recorded crime in Gwent to increase in the next 12 to made a number of representations. A review of the 18 months as a result of practices that have been funding formula is about to commence, and that will ongoing for the last two years? be a key plank of our submission, in terms of how the Winston Roddick: May I just correct what might have funding formula should be reviewed. We have occurred to you, Chair, to be a flippant answer a estimated that it costs us about £2.4 million to police moment ago about whether I should go to speak to the capital city, and there is no recognition of that in the Lib Dems? If I thought that it would improve the current formula, whereas there are arrangements policing, I would certainly speak to them, but I would for other capital cities. have to have an invitation. Chair: It was a flippant question, Mr Roddick. Q54 Jonathan Edwards: [Translation.] We have just Winston Roddick: All right. Thank you very much. had the spending review for the 2015Ð16 financial Christopher Salmon: I have just a very quick year. How concerned are you about the cuts to the comment. Clearly, a smaller pot makes life tougher, Home Office budget? but we all accept that that is the situation that we find cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Ev 10 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon ourselves in, and the police are not unique in that. Q61 Jessica Morden: As Sophie Howe alluded to Crime has continued to fall during this. That said, I earlier, you are now responsible for the community am very sympathetic to Ian’s point about what the safety fund and the property fund, which is obviously statistics actually tell us, and we should approach all quite a lot of money within your personal decision to of these statistics with a good degree of scepticism. spend. Can you give us assurances that it is used to The question, really, is about the quality of service build on the work that the previous drugs, crime and and whether we are delivering the right sort of service community safety programme used to spend on it, and for the twenty-first century, if you like. Many of the not being used by the others. structures that exist in the police, the culture and the Winston Roddick: In terms of what I have done with behaviours are, frankly, stuck somewhere between the regard to that, as you know, that fund has come to us 1970s and the mid-1990s. Changing that will free up now non-earmarked and non-ring-fenced, and it is for a good deal of resource and professionalism and so us to choose, through the system of commissioning, on. There is a lot more that can be done before we get which bodies receive that fund for the purposes of the to the point where it is the cuts problem. fund. The amount was cut back by about 11% and I distributed the fund this year to precisely the same Q58 Jessica Morden: There has been a question bodies as it was distributed to by the police authority, mark over whether the police and crime panels have less that cutback, because there was no time to do the selection. I have told each of them that, between now enough powers to scrutinise you between elections. and next time, I am considering the merits of each How often do you meet your police and crime panels, recipient, and they may not receive the same amount. and is there anything that you would change about They may receive more, but they may receive less. them? I know that it is a bit difficult to answer. Christopher Salmon: May I second that? In fact, I Winston Roddick: Shall I go first on that? I meet them think that all the commissioners are taking the same fairly regularly. I have to meet them to have my approach of continuing the funding that we have budget approved; I have to meet them in order to inherited for this financial year to allow us time to confirm the appointment of my chief executive; and I take a steady, sensible and considered look at how had to meet them to present my annual report. The best to spend it. There will be things that may need panel has only been in existence for some six months, more funding, because they are successful, while there so I have met its members quite often. I find them are, frankly, things that have been duplicated that effective. I am not always comfortable, but that is the should not be funded, and making those decisions is object of it, I think. It is real scrutiny and real best done when we have some time to consider them. accountability, and I meet them as regularly as On the more general point about the partnerships, necessary. whether we are talking about youth offending teams, drug programmes or so on, the great opportunity Q59 Jessica Morden: How regularly is that? offered by police and crime commissioners is that they Winston Roddick: I have been in position for six are not just police commissioners. They have this months, and I think that we have met four times. power to get other people involved in the fight against crime and crime prevention, alongside the police, and Q60 Chair: Is that an average? to do it in a co-ordinated fashion, aligned to the same Sophie Howe: We have met six times with our panel. set of priorities, and out of the same pots of money in Christopher Salmon: It is probably a bit more in my a way that did not exist before, because there were case, largely because of the number of staff that I organisations all over the place, with the best of have. I have been through the process of reorganising intentions, jumping to different tunes and trying to bid the required police and crime panel attendance. It has for different bits of money from different places. There is a real opportunity there. been at least four times, but it is probably four or Ian Johnston: May I add that it is quite complex at six times. the moment? The money came to us, less the 25% Ian Johnston: It is four times in my case. The plan, that we could have expected. It is money for drug an agreement with the police crime panel, is that it intervention, youth offending teams and other victim should be about six times a year. However, like the and witness services, and it is other Home Office others, we had confirmation hearings for the deputy, grants that previously went to the individual and also for the chief financial officer, and we organisations—in Newport’s case, Positive Futures incorporated it, but there also needed to be one for the and others. In Gwent, we are about to start bringing plan. Perhaps I can pick up on Jessica Morden’s together a commissioning framework involving question about whether they scrutinise or not. I can partners, and we have seconded someone from tell you that, from my personal experience from two probation to help with that. weeks ago, having had one hour and 35 minutes of Sophie Howe: Like the other commissioners, we have being scrutinised, they are doing a very good job. more or less protected the budget from the community With respect, I think that some of the comments, with safety fund, although a reduction came from the Home respect, coming from certain individuals in Office. It is going into the overall block grant now, so Westminster about how ineffectual they are are not it will not have any ring-fencing, so we are looking at deserved. each of the organisations that are funded. We are Chair: Thank you very much indeed. trying to align our priorities with the priorities of other Jessica Morden: May I ask one more question? partners through their single integrated plans, to make Chair: Yes. sure that what we are funding is not ad hoc or on the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:05] Job: 034841 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/034841/034841_o001_steve_CORRECTED transcript - FINAL - WAC 11 07 13 PCCs.xml

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11

11 July 2013 Sophie Howe, Ian Johnston QPM, Winston Roddick CB QC and Christopher Salmon margins, but that it meets both sets of priorities in commissioner for coming along here today. Thank terms of reducing crime. you very much. Chair: I think that we have run out of time now, so I thank all of the commissioners and the deputy cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [SE] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

Ev 12 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence

Written evidence

Supplementary written evidence from Christopher Salmon, Police and Crime Commissioner for Dyfed- Powys (PCC 01) Please find below an up to date list of OPCC staff and costs. Role Salary Police and Crime Commissioner £65,000 Finance/Section 151 officer £10,000 Deputy Police & Crime Commissioner £53,000 Chief Of Staff £56,580Ð60,390 Policy Advisor—Engagement £31,437У34,005 Policy Advisor—Quality of Service £31,437У34,005 Policy Advisor—Planning & Performance £31,437У34,005 Public Affairs Advisor £31,437У38,862 Casework Officer (Secondment) £20,020У21,747 Support Officer £17,566У18,721 Office Manager £23,046У25,449

As a comparator, the people costs, (staff and members), for the Dyfed Powys Police Authority for 2011Ð12 was £607,675. In terms of hours worked all staff (apart from the PCC and DPCC) are contracted to work a 37hour week. In line with Dyfed-Powys policies OPCC staff (apart from the PCC and DPCC) work on a flexi-time basis. The Commissioner has been working a minimum (and regularly in excess) of 50 hours a week since his appointment. At times he has been working a seven day week due to public meetings and the sheer volume of work. The Deputy Commissioner has only been in role for three months. On average he has been working 45 hours a week. Looking ahead at his impending diary schedule, this time commitment will increase as he taked on more responsibilities. Dyfed Powys covers 52% of the land mass of Wales. This means significant travel distances (and times) to attend public meetings in addition to day to day meetings and commitments. September 2013

Supplementary written evidence from Winston Roddick QC CM, Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales (PCC 02) Budget The budget for the office has remained the same as that of the Police Authority. The budget for the office for 2013Ð14 is £731,341.00. Please see Appendix A. The budget for the police force is £141,704,826.00. Therefore the budget for our office represents 0.5% of the budget. The information about the budget of the office is online, and was published as part of the papers to the Police and Crime Panel.

Commissioners Working Hours The Commissioner is currently not undertaking any employment outside of the role of the Police and Crime Commissioner. The Commissioner has stated that his average working week is 60 hours. His declaration of interest is available online.

Staffing The staffing for the office has been updated below. This information is also available online. We are currently recruiting a Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner. Employees Name Salary £ Police and Crime Commissioner Winston Roddick 70,000 Full Time Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner Not yet appointed Circa 45,000 Negotiable Chief Executive (Monitoring Officer) Anna Humphreys 72,987 Full Time Chief Finance Officer Kate Jackson 60,009 (pro rata) 0.60 fte Executive Officer 31,437 Full Time Policy Officer 32,226 (pro rata) 0.65 fte Policy Officer 32,226 Full Time cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 13

Employees Name Salary £ Communications Officer 29,784 Full Time Information Assistant 25,449 (pro rata) 0.81 fte Personal Assistant 23,799 Full Time Personal Assistant 23,799 Full Time

Appendix A STRATEGIC EXECUTIVE BOARD Friday, 26 July 2013 Report by the Director of Finance and Resources Office of the Police Crime Commissioner’s Budget outturn 2012Ð13 and Budget 2013Ð14 (Previously Police Authority Office Budget)

1. Outturn figures 2012Ð13 1.1 The Police Authority Office budget contained budgets for the costs of the Police Authority members and staff and related costs. The Budget transferred to the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner in November 2012. 1.2 The total budget for 2012Ð13 was £731,341. Due to the winding down of the Police Authority, a number of vacancies within the Office and the establishment of the Commissioner’s Office (OPCC) there was an under spend of £228,475 at the end of the financial year. 1.3 A summary of the under spend is given below with detailed figures shown at the end of the report. OPCC Budget Budget 2012Ð13 Actual 2012Ð13 Variance 2012Ð13 £££ Staffing and Employee Costs 529,941 376,021 -153,920 Travel, Subsistence and Attendance 52,150 22,606 -29,544 allowances Supplies and Services 149,250 104,239 -45,011 TOTAL 731,341 502,866 -228,475

1.4 A specific reserve is held for the OPCC which stands at £0.252 million. This is higher than would normally be held to cater for any additional costs associated with Stage 1 or 2 transfers or the setting up of the OPCC. No additional costs that cannot be catered for within the annual budget have come to light so far. 1.5 Following discussions it was decided that it was not necessary to increase the OPCCC Reserve and the under spend has been used to fund a new Reserve to assist in the funding of the Commissioner’s Community Safety Fund. A reserve of £228,475 has been set up.

2. Budget 2013Ð14 2.1 The Budget for the OPCC for 2013Ð14 needed to be re set for the year based on the new requirements but with a view of not increasing the overall costs. Detailed work carried out by the OPCC staff and Finance have identified where savings could be made to fund any new requirements. This has enabled the budget to be re set funding the new staffing structure as well as the non-staff costs. A summary is given below of the changes made and the detailed changes are shown on the final page. OPCC Budget Budget 2012Ð13 Actual 2012Ð13 Budget Adjustments £££ Staffing and Employee Costs 529,941 562,816 32,875 Travel, Subsistence and Attendance 52,150 38,595 -13,555 allowances Supplies and Services 149,250 129,930 -19,320 TOTAL 731,341 731,341 -19,320 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

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DETAILED OPPCC BUDGET AND OUTTURN Budget Budget Actual Budget Adjustments 2012Ð13 2012Ð13 Variance 2013Ð14 2013Ð14 Account Description ££££ £ 0114 BASIC PAY MEMBERS AND STAFF 437,777 -125,280 434,423 -3,354 312,497 0214 NATIONAL INSURANCE 31,572 19,436 -12,136 37,418 5,846 0314 POLICE STAFF PENSIONS 53,832 38,970 -14,862 83,844 30,012 0789 PROFESSIONAL FEES 260 50 -210 260 0 0820 TRAINING 4,000 443 -3,557 4,871 871 0920 OCPA ACCREDITED ASSESSOR 5,000 -5,000 0 -5,000 0930 STAFF ADVERTISING COSTS 2,500 4,625 2,125 2,000 -500 1680 CASUAL LETTINGS-HIRE OF ROOMS 1,800 1,292 -509 1,845 45 1801 FIXTURES FITTINGS FURNISH 200 0 -200 0 -200 2605 CUSTODY VISITORS TRAVEL 8,000 4,575 -3,425 8,000 0 2606 PUBLIC TRANSPORT BUS TRAIN, ETC 4,000 2,415 -1,585 0 -4,000 2624 PCC, DPCC, MEMBERS TRAVEL 22,000 8,219 -13,781 17,410 -4,590 EXPENSES 2701 CAR ALLOWANCES—ESSENTIAL 3,000 0 -3,000 0 -3,000 2701 CAR ALLOWANCES—CASUAL 3,500 2,040 -1,460 0 -3,500 3009 FURNITURE AND EQUIPMENT 12,500 6,304 -6,196 6,000 -6,500 3051 PHOTOCOPIERS 1,500 86 -1,414 1,500 0 3920 OUTSIDE PRINTING & PHOTOCOPY 1,000 400 -600 6,000 5,000 3959 PUBLICATIONS—GENERAL 500 0 -500 995 495 3995 STATIONERY—GENERAL 1,500 2,916 1,416 1,500 0 4183 LEGAL FEES 10,000 1,114 -8,886 10,000 0 4191 CONSULTANTS 5,000 6,820 1,820 5,000 0 4470 MOBILE PHONES 1,100 21 -1,079 1,100 0 4505 SOFTWARE MAINTENANCE & 5,480 15,246 9,766 5,480 0 PURCHASE 4601 OFFICERS SUBSISTENCE 1,750 1,807 57 1,785 35 4610 CONFERENCE FEES 3,000 281 -2,719 2,000 -1,000 4640 CHAIRMAN’S FUND 500 0 -500 0 -500 4641 MEMBERS ATTENDANCE 5,100 2,221 -2,879 5,100 0 ALLOWANCE 4643 PCC, DPCC, MEMBERS SUBSISTENCE 3,750 1,322 -2,428 5,750 2,000 4649 LAY VISITORS SUBSISTENCE 550 8 -543 550 0 4746 NATIONAL SUSCRIPTIONS 43,250 14,642 -28,608 31,090 -12,160 4880 PUBLIC NOTICES 9,000 4,276 -4,724 9,000 0 6082 INTERNAL AUDIT 48,420 50,840 2,420 48,420 0 TOTAL 731,341 502,866 -228,475 731,341 0

September 2013

Supplementary written evidence from Ian Johnston QPM, Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent (PCC 03)

The additional information is as follows:

PCC’s weekly hours—70+

OPCC Costs—Gross Total £842,899 for year 2013Ð14

OPCC Establishment—See table below

OFFICE OF POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER—ESTABLISHMENT DETAIL Post Title Scale WTE Hours Salary (£) PCC 1.00 37.00 70,000 DEPUTY PCC 1.00 37.00 52,500 PA CHIEF EXECUTIVE & CLERK 1.00 37.00 90,756 CHIEF FINANCE OFFICER 1.00 37.00 81,000 BUSINESS SUPPORT OFFICER SC5 1.00 37.00 21,099Ð23,046 INFORMATION OFFICER SO2 1.00 37.00 28,947Ð30,633 EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT—PCC & DEPUTY PCC SC6 1.00 37.00 23,799Ð25,449 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 15

Post Title Scale WTE Hours Salary (£) HEAD OF PERFORMANCE PLANNING & PO(I) 1.00 37.00 39,807Ð42,639 PARTNERSHIPS POLICY OFFICER (VICTIMS) SO2 1.00 37.00 28,947Ð30,633 POLICY OFFICER (ENGAGEMENT) SO2 1.00 37.00 28,947Ð30,633 PA TO THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE SC5 0.81 30.00 17,090Ð18,667 HEAD OF CORPORATE GOVERNANCE PO(I) 1.00 37.00 39,807Ð42,639

September 2013

Supplementary written evidence from Alun Michael, Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales (PCC 04) I am writing further to your request for additional information following the evidence session held in Cardiff Bay on Police and Crime Commissioners in Wales. I currently employ 14 people in my team. As you will be aware my own salary of £85,000 is set by the Home Office and as stated in my submission to the Home Affairs Select Committee and referred to in your evidence session, I estimate I work over 60 hours per week on average. My diary is published on my website here: http://www.southwalescommissioner.org.uk/en/Your-Commissioner/Commissioners-Diary.aspx My total staffing cost and salaries of senior officers (those above £58,000 p/a) are also published on my website, here: http://www.southwalescommissioner.org.uk/en/Your-Commissioner/Commissioners-Team/ Transparency.aspx . My total staffing cost is £790,925 including my salary and my total budget is £922,000 which represents 0.36% of total police budget—one of the lowest in England and Wales. My staffing budget breaks down as:

Senior Officers Commissioner: £85,000 p/a (set by the Home Office) Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner: £65,886 p/a Assistant Police Commissioner: £39,531 p/a (2 days a week) Chief of Staff: £67,000 p/a Chief Finance Officer: £65,204 (4 days per week)

Other staff by pay grade: 1x PO 2/3: £31,437У36,963 3 x PO 1/2: £29,784У34,005 3 x SO 1/2: £26,384Ð30,663 1 x Scale 5/6: £21,099У25,449 2 x Scale 2/3: £16,024У18,343 I also attach my organisational chart showing my office structure and the relationships between members of the team. As you will see it includes an additional Staff Officer who is a secondee from South Wales Police. I hope this information is helpful. September 2013 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

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Manager Equality & Social Justice Manager Communications Communications Public Manager Manager Response Plan & Manager Manager & Volunteer Performance Partnerships Partnerships

Staff Officer

Staff Staff Staff Structure Officer

Police and Crime Commissioner Staff Staff Officer Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner Assistant Police and Crime Commissioner Assistant Police (Secondee) Delivery Team Assistant Assistant Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales Administrative

Leadership Support Team Team Support Leadership Officer) (Monitoring (Monitoring Key Personal Chief of Staff Assistant & Assistant Office Manager Commissioner’s Commissioner’s Assistant Assistant Administrative

Chief Officers Chief Officers Officer Office Support Team Team Office Support Chief Finance cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [O] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

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Letter from the Chair to Winston Roddick QC, CM, Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales dated 16 October 2013 (PCC 02A) I am writing on behalf of the Welsh Affairs Committee to seek clarification on evidence you gave to the Committee on Thursday 11 July 2013. This follows press reports concerning your residence at the time of your election. During your evidence to the Committee, you stated that “my home is, was, always will be Caernarfon” (Q34). The full exchange from your evidence on this matter is included as an Appendix to this letter. In the light of recent developments, we would like you to clarify the evidence you gave to the Committee about your main residence and to provide the opportunity to add or subtract any information to that given on 11 July. The Committee would be grateful to receive a response by Wednesday 30 October.

Welsh Affairs Committee Evidence Session,11July 2013 Q33 Stephen Doughty: Where do you live, Mr Roddick? Winston Roddick: Caernarfon. Q34 Stephen Doughty: You live in Caernarfon. You do not have a home in Cardiff at all? Winston Roddick: I have homes in various parts of the country because I have practised in various parts of the country, but my home is, was, always will be Caernarfon. Q35 Stephen Doughty: How much of an average week would you say you spend in north Wales versus Cardiff and travelling around, if you have these multiple properties? Are you full time in north Wales, or are you spending time in Cardiff still? Winston Roddick: Well, I am in Cardiff today to see you. Q36 Stephen Doughty: Obviously, but I am talking about in a normal working week. Winston Roddick: Yesterday, I was staying in London with my son, because I was before a Minister in London yesterday. The day before that, I was being addressed by the Home Secretary in London. Q37 Stephen Doughty: So, you are generally only in Cardiff when you have work meetings related to your role as police and crime commissioner? Winston Roddick: No, I come here to see the rugby matches as well. Q38 Stephen Doughty: You do not spend any other time here. You do not spend time here on outside interests or any other forms of employment or in an advisory capacity or anything such as that? Winston Roddick: No. October 2013

Letter from Winston Roddick QC, CM, Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales dated 28 October 2013 (PCC 02B) Thank you for your letter of the 16 October 2013 inviting me to add to what I said in my evidence to the committee at its meeting in Cardiff on the 11 July. I have been out of the country until this week and am grateful to you for extending the time for responding. I have read the transcript you provided with your letter. I agreed it many weeks ago. I have nothing to add to what I said. You refer to clarification of my evidence in relation to my residence. Please state precisely what aspect of my evidence the Committee believes requires clarification as I believe the evidence I gave was perfectly clear on this point. October 2013

Letter from the Chair, to Ian Johnston QPM, Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent dated 12 November 2013 (PCC 03A) I am writing on behalf of the Welsh Affairs Committee to welcome the appointment of Jeff Farrar as the new Chief Constable in Gwent. Further to our evidence session in July, we would be grateful if you could give us some detail regarding the application process for the new Chief Constable. In particular, we would welcome information about the number of applicants for the post and the job application process. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [28-02-2014 17:08] Job: 034841 Unit: PG02

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The Committee would be grateful to receive a response by Thursday 21 November. November 2013

Letter from Ian Johnston QPM, Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent, to the Chair, dated 19 November 2013 (PCC 03B) With reference to your request dated 12 November 2013 for information regarding the Chief Constable process, I enclose a copy of the report prepared and considered by the Police & Crime Panel1 on the appointment of the new Chief Constable in Gwent. I also enclose a copy of the Police & Crime Panel report2 following the Confirmation Hearing on 8 November 2013. Should you require any further information, please let me know. Ian Johnston QPM November 2013

Printed in the United Kingdom by The Stationery Office Limited 03/2014 034841 19585 1 http://www.gwentpcp.org.uk/sites/default/files/proposed_appointment_chief_constable_21.10.13.pdf 2 http://www.gwentpcp.org.uk/sites/default/files/proposed_appointment_chief_constable_report.08.11.13.pdf