Thursday Volume 664 5 September 2019 No. 340

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 5 September 2019 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2019 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 329 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 330

stops taking her medication, she will be dead within House of Commons 10 days. What does the Secretary of State have to say to my constituent, who is afraid that the Government are Thursday 5 September 2019 gambling with her life? Stephen Barclay: I would say that we should not be The House met at half-past Nine o’clock scaring people unnecessarily. The Government have put in place a framework to ensure supply. We have also put in place an express freight service, which will give even PRAYERS more capacity on a 24-hour basis and between two to four days for larger pallets. There is additional capacity, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and a huge amount of work has been done on storage, but this is an issue of mutual interest for the UK and the Commission, and we are working on it jointly.

Oral Answers to Questions Diana Johnson: Anyone who is facing cancer treatment wants to know that they can get the medicine and the medical devices they need as quickly as possible and with certainty. Dr Buscombe from the British Nuclear EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION Medicine Society says that the system for delivering radioactive isotopes in the event of a no-deal Brexit is The Secretary of State was asked— “fragile”. What does the Secretary of State say to patients who are concerned to hear that? Supply of Medicines: No Deal Stephen Barclay: I was a Health Minister, and as part 1. Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): What recent of business as usual there are always issues of supply, assessment the Government have made of the effect on usually with around up to 50 lines. We have had it in the the supply of medicines of the UK leaving the EU last few weeks with HRT, which is totally unconnected without a deal. [912274] to Brexit. These are issues that the Department is well used to preparing for. It is in the interest of both sides to 16. Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): What get this right. Two thirds of Ireland’s medicine comes recent assessment the Government have made of the through the land bridge in Great Britain. This is something effect on the supply of medicines of the UK leaving the that both sides are working to deliver because it is of EU without a deal. [912289] interest to both of us.

17. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I welcome What recent assessment the Government have made of the Government’s preparations to prevent medicine the effect on the supply of medicines of the UK leaving shortages in the event of no deal and the fact that the the EU without a deal. [912290] Secretary of State highlighted the impact this will have on the Republic of Ireland. As he rightly says, two The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union thirds of medicines to the Republic come through and (Stephen Barclay): The Department of Health and Social over UK motorways, so it is in the EU’s interests as well Care has assessed and contacted 448 suppliers of medicine to prevent no deal. and has regular and detailed conversations with the industry. Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is right. This is about preparing. It is not about scaring people unnecessarily. Mohammad Yasin: This week, the Nuffield Trust Around 220 lorries impact Ireland. This is of mutual joined 11 union leaders to warn that no deal would interest, and we want to get it right with them. That is disrupt the supply of life-saving medicine and exacerbate why we are working with member states on this. It is not the largest staffing crisis in our NHS’s history. What just about stock and not just about flow; it is also about level of mortality rate is acceptable to the Secretary of flow the other way.A significant number of UK medicines State as the price to pay for this devastating no-deal from firms like AstraZeneca go to Europe, so this is in Brexit? the interests of the EU27 and the UK, which is why considerable work has been done on it. Stephen Barclay: The hon. Gentleman does not reflect the reality of the significant preparation that the industry Exports: No Deal has done over the last three years, and I pay tribute to it for that. For example, one of the leading insulin manufacturers, Novo Nordisk, has 18 weeks’ worth of 2. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): supplies, while the Government had asked for six weeks’ What recent assessment the Government have made of worth. The industry has gone above and beyond in its the effect on the transportation of goods of the UK preparation, and a huge amount of work has been leaving the EU without a deal. [912275] done. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union Vicky Foxcroft: I was recently contacted by a constituent (Stephen Barclay): The Government have prioritised with a rare condition. She has stopped producing cortisol flow of goods at the border and put in place a range of and needs to take a synthetic form of it to survive. If she easements to support that fluidity. 331 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 332

Richard Burden: I do not get any sense from the Stephen Barclay: Wehave a ministerial meeting, chaired Secretary of State that he intends to implement the by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, which is decisions of this House in ruling out no deal. What tasked each day with looking at specific issues. My would his response be to Rod McKenzie of the Road focus—as Chair of the Exiting the European Union Haulage Association, who only this week said this of Committee, the right hon. Gentleman will be aware of his experience of Ministers in relation to what he describes this—is on the negotiations, as opposed to every item as the “clear and present” threat of no deal: such as pallets, so I will pick that up with the Chancellor “What we need is action, and we need action now. And there’s of the Duchy of Lancaster. However, considerable work this gap between what they say they’re going to do, and what they has gone on. As I say, this issue applies to the EU—to have so far failed to deliver”? its exports and the flow of goods through Calais—and When will we see delivery from this Government? When it is these very issues that the Chancellor of the Duchy will the Government even meet unions representing of Lancaster was discussing with his counterparts in drivers to discuss their real fears about the impact of a Calais last Friday. no-deal Brexit on drivers’ hours and safety? Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): The Secretary of Stephen Barclay: Again, the hon. Gentleman is ignoring State quite rightly referred to the EORI numbers, but as the evidence. The Government are acting. He should I understand it, businesses will also have to get a similar look at, for example, the auto-enrolment of EORI— number from the country in the EU27 with which they economic operator registration and identification— trade once we are outside the EU. Are businesses aware numbers. Some 87,955 VAT-registered businesses that of that, or are they just aware of getting the UK one? trade only with the EU have, as part of auto-enrolment, had those numbers sent out. My right hon. Friend the Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is right that there Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was in Calais are a number of things businesses need to do. That is meeting his counterpart and discussing these very issues. exactly the purpose behind the public information campaign There are material issues to address, but it does not that we have launched to improve readiness. Contrary progress debate in this House if people ignore the reality to the perception often implied in this House, a huge of the work that the Government are doing. amount of work has been done in government over the last three years and a large amount of work has Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Ind): My right hon. Friend also been done in large companies, including large said last week that the pharmaceutical companies. The area of more concern “car industry’s‘just in time’supply chains rely on fluid cross-Channel has been within the SME community to which he refers, trade routes”, and that is what the public information campaign is and that we targeting. “need to start talks now on how we make sure this flow continues if we leave without a deal.” Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Would not the best way of measuring the effect of transportation Some of us have been making this point for some time. of goods on the UK leaving the EU without a deal be to Can my right hon. Friend say: who are these proposed publish the Operation Yellowhammer documents, rather talks with, have they started, when does he expect them than sanitising or shredding them, and allowing Members to finish and will he publish an update on how far they of Parliament to interview the civil servants responsible have got? for writing them?

Stephen Barclay: This is the first opportunity I have Stephen Barclay: A huge amount of information has had since my right hon. Friend left the Government to already been published, not least in the form of the pay tribute to the work that he did as a senior Minister, technical notices that the Government have issued. However, in particular, if I may say so, in relation to the British I fear—this may be a rare area of agreement between steel industry. I know he was an assiduous champion of the right hon. Gentleman and me—that there is no level its interests at the Cabinet table. of documentation we could publish that would fully What I was highlighting in that thread was the talks satisfy him. the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was having that Friday in Calais. The fact is that issues about the Visa-free Travel documentation required and the flow are of mutual interest. It was pertaining to the issues touched on in the communiqué issued by the Commission yesterday. 3. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): What plans the It is in the interests of both sides, including those of Government have to negotiate visa-free travel between leaders in northern France, that we get the flow of these the UK and the EU for short visits after the UK leaves goods right. the EU. [912276]

Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): About 3 million 13. Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): wooden pallets are used every month to transport goods, What plans the Government have to negotiate visa-free including food, between the UK and the EU. After a travel between the UK and the EU for short visits after no-deal Brexit, those wooden pallets will no longer be the UK leaves the EU. [912286] able to be used unless they have been heat treated or fumigated. Can the Secretary of State give the House The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting an assurance, because this is absolutely about the supply the European Union (James Duddridge): The European of food, that there are sufficient pallets available to the Union has confirmed that it will grant UK nationals companies that keep our food supplies moving? visa-free travel for short stays, subject to reciprocity. 333 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 334

The Government have also said that we do not intend to The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union require visas for tourists or short-term business visitors (Stephen Barclay): The Government are committed to from the European Union. leaving the European Union on 31 October, whatever the circumstances. We would prefer to leave with a deal, Craig Whittaker: On longer-term working visas, 19% of but to achieve that the EU must be willing to reopen the people in the Calder Valley work in manufacturing, a previous withdrawal agreement. sector that is now suffering from skill shortages and benefiting from very high employment. Can my right Stephen Hammond: I thank my right hon. Friend for hon. Friend put the minds of businesses at rest, and that answer. I believe the best way to avoid no deal is to explain how we can fill these skill shortfalls in the short secure a deal. He will know that I voted three times term after Brexit that are currently filled through freedom for the withdrawal agreement, and I will support this of movement? Government as they seek to secure a deal. Given that the comments reported overnight from Monsieur Barnier James Duddridge: I thank my hon. Friend for that appear to be in conflict with the aspirations of our question, and I can certainly reassure him. As the Prime Minister, will the Secretary of State say when the Home Secretary set out, as we leave the EU we will Prime Minister intends to deliver his proposals for the transition to a new points-based immigration system revised deal, so that that deal can be secured before that is built around the skills and talents that people 31 October? have, not where they are from. In the short term, Swiss citizens and those from the European economic area Stephen Barclay: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend. who move to the UK after a no-deal Brexit on 31 October Despite some misgivings and the way that he campaigned will still be able to start to study, as now. during the referendum, he has consistently voted for a deal, and he was consistently willing to compromise where many others were not. On the substance of the Mrs Latham: How will we ensure that the UK continues talks, the Prime Minister’s Europe adviser was in Brussels to attract the brightest and best when we leave the EU? yesterday, and the Prime Minister is due to meet the Taoiseach on Monday. I am in regular contact with my James Duddridge: My hon. Friend makes an important counterparts, and I have visited a number of capitals in point—it is essential that we attract the brightest and recent weeks. A significant amount of work has gone best, not just from the EU but from around the world. on, but we will not fall into the trap that befell the That is what the Government are doing by repositioning previous Government, where the Commission has an ourselves with real growth areas around the world, absolutist, all-weather, all-insurance position and then alongside the EU. asks for deals on the basis of creative flexibility, and against that test then dismiss it as magical thinking. We Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is need to have detailed discussions, but they must be done the ministerial team aware that my constituency of in the right way, which is what we are doing. Huddersfield, where I come from, is, like that of the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker), the Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): centre and heart of manufacturing in this country? We The Secretary of State has said once again that the new must be mobile and be able to visit places. People in the Administration want to secure a deal, rather than leave manufacturing centre of Huddersfield, and the university, without one, yet we know that no new concrete proposals are absolutely appalled by what might happen if there is have been presented to the EU. It has been reported that a no-deal Brexit. We need access to our markets and to in the technical talks that took place yesterday between travel, and we believe it will be the end of the world if the UK’s chief negotiator and EU Commission officials, we crash out without a deal. the UK team made it clear that the Government want to jettison the level playing field provisions contained in James Duddridge: If he has studied my past, the hon. the withdrawal agreement. Will the Secretary of State Gentleman may know that I lived in his constituency. I confirm that removing those provisions is now the studied and have friends in his constituency, and I know Government’s preference? it very well. Stephen Barclay: As the hon. Gentleman says, the Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): Last week, Government want to leave with a deal. We also know I spoke to Universities Scotland, which is deeply concerned that Labour Members do not want a deal, they are not about the status of Erasmus students who are currently prepared to leave with no deal, and therefore they are in Scotland. If they go home for Christmas, can the not prepared to leave at all. The Government’s proposals Minister guarantee that they will be allowed back in, in made it clear in the letter to President Tusk that, the event of a no-deal Brexit? notwithstanding concerns about the wider withdrawal agreement held by many of my colleagues on the James Duddridge: Yes. Government Benches, the issues have been narrowed down to that of the backstop. That is distinct from the Mr Speaker: We are grateful. Northern Ireland protocol as a whole, and that is the constructive approach that the Prime Minister has taken. He has also answered the charge that was often levelled No Deal from the Labour Benches about what sort of deal we seek in the political declaration. The charge of a blind Brexit 4. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Ind): What recent was often levelled at me, and the Prime Minister has assessment he has made of the likelihood of the UK answered that question. He is seeking a best-in-class free leaving the EU without a deal. [912277] trade agreement, and he has been crystal clear on that. 335 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 336

Matthew Pennycook: There was no answer there on sheep industry were addressed, at much greater length the level playing field provisions. I am not sure why the than perhaps the Mr Speaker can allow me now, in the Secretary of State is so reluctant to confirm that regulatory Adjournment debate by the Minister of State, Department divergence from the EU, rather than alignment with it, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. is what the Government want to achieve. After all, as he Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George mentioned, in the Prime Minister’s letter to Donald Eustice), so I would first refer the hon. Lady to the Tusk on 19 August that was for him “the point” of our comments and the issues the Minister of State— exit. We have gone from Canada plus plus plus to Canada minus minus with barely a mention and no Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): So, no answer! debate in this House. Let me ask the Secretary of State this simple question: will the Government now come Stephen Barclay: I can go into it. I watched the clean with the British public about the fact that far from Adjournment debate. The Minister talked about the maintaining workers’ rights, Ministers want the freedom misunderstanding by an Opposition Member of the impact to chip away at them and environmental protections of depreciation on experts. We can talk about the and consumer standards? measures put in place in terms of headage and the support for the industry. We can talk about the level of Stephen Barclay: No. What is staggering about the exports. We can get into the detail with the hon. Lady; it hon. Gentleman’s question is his— is just that the Chair will, I am sure, want me to be fairly succinct, and the Adjournment debate covered the issue Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op): Answer! at greater length. Stephen Barclay: If the hon. Lady will give me a moment, I was just coming on to do precisely that. The Ethanol Imports: Tariff Schedule point at issue is whether the UK is, as a sovereign state, able to determine its own laws and regulations, or 5. Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op): What plans the whether it is in dynamic alignment, taking rules and Government have to publish a tariff schedule for ethanol regulations from the Commission over which we would imports in the event that the UK leaves the EU without have no vote. Opposition Members may huff and puff. a deal. [912278] What it suggests is that they want this Parliament to continue to take rules from the Commission, but in The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union future have no say over those rules. We do want a (Stephen Barclay): If the UK leaves the EU without a situation where we have two sovereign states, not on the deal, the UK would implement a temporary tariff regime. basis of deregulation but of sovereignty. This would apply for up to 12 months while a full consultation takes place and a review of a permanent Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Am I approach is undertaken. right in trusting that we have a cunning plan to leave on 31 October? Anna Turley: I appreciate the Secretary of State’s Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend tempts me, response and the letter I received from the Department with his knowledge of the relevant box sets, into dangerous for International Trade this morning, but in the meetings territory. The Prime Minister does have clarity on what we had with the Department, we were told that biofuels he is seeking in the negotiations. The framework was set would not be covered by the protection tariffs. Ensus in out in the letter to President Tusk, where we narrowed my constituency tells me that the fear of a no-deal down the negotiating objectives to the backstop in the Brexit is already harming business. We know that a withdrawal agreement and to a best-in-class free trade no-deal Brexit without tariff protection will kill British agreement in the political declaration. That is the plan. biofuels, end jobs and leave us relying on imports. Will It is very clear. the Secretary of State commit to working with his colleagues to maintain tariff protection on ethanol before it is too late? Mr Speaker: Order. In calling the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Jane Dodds), I should like again to congratulate her warmly on her splendid maiden Stephen Barclay: The hon. Lady raises a legitimate speech yesterday afternoon. issue in a constructive way, and I am very happy to work with her because she is championing a genuine Jane Dodds (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Thank issue on behalf of her constituents. There is always a you, Mr Speaker. Diolch yn fawr iawn. What would the balance in setting tariffs between protecting consumers Secretary of State say to the National Farmers Union, and the issues for producers. It is about how we calibrate which says that a no-deal Brexit would be catastrophic those two sometimes competing issues. She will understand for farmers? The Farmers Union of Wales says it would that within the market—within the industry—there is have disastrous consequences for farmers. What would domestic pressure, regardless of Brexit, but I am very he say sitting opposite family farmers in places like happy to work with her on that issue. Brecon and Radnorshire and across Wales who really fear for the livelihoods and their futures? Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The Secretary of State will be aware from Yellowhammer Stephen Barclay: May I join you, Mr Speaker, in that the proposed tariff regime under no deal creates welcoming the hon. Lady and paying tribute to her very specific risks for the UK oil-refining sector. Given maiden speech yesterday? I thought she spoke with that the Valero refinery in Pembroke is the largest and great distinction. The specific issues pertaining to the most important private sector employer in west Wales, 337 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 338 will the Minister tell me what the plan is for protecting James Duddridge: I would certainly encourage those the UK refining sector if we end up leaving the EU businesses to avail themselves of that opportunity. The without a deal? Department has sent out 1,300 bits of information and that is captured on the gov.uk website. I have engaged Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend will know that with businesses—I am the small and medium-sized concerns have been raised by the industry in respect of enterprises champion for the Department—and the one that. Pertaining to the answer that I gave a moment ago, thing that I have noticed is that larger businesses tend to existing questions within that market are also a factor. I be more prepared than smaller businesses, and particularly am very happy to have further discussions with him, as the type of which the hon. Lady speaks. The Government I am with the hon. Member for Redcar (Anna Turley), website is a rich source of information, so I encourage because a number of issues come into play for that Members to return to their constituency and—alongside industry. campaigning—promote the Government website.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): There is a Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): group of medicines that simply cannot be stockpiled There is a massive difference between some of the and which rely on an uninterrupted supply of imports. realistic concerns of businesses about no deal and some Will the Secretary of State give a 100% guarantee that of the madcap scare stories that are going around. none of my constituents will suffer a shortage of that What is the Minister doing to ensure that there is an type of medicine as a result of a no-deal Brexit? understanding of realistic concerns and to dismiss some of the other wild stories? Stephen Barclay: As I said, we have not only put in place an additional procurement framework in terms of James Duddridge: There will always be knockabout capacity, but we have procured an express freight service politics, but I would prefer to engage in the detail. I was to deliver small consignments on a 24-hour basis, and a in Northern Ireland last Thursday talking to businesses two-to-four day pallet-delivery service. These issues are on the border and then in Belfast discussing alternative being addressed by the Department and a huge amount arrangements with a wide range of businesses, engaging of work is going on exactly on that issue. them in the very real detail and not the high-level scare stories. There are concerns, and they are being dealt with, but they should not be confused with the bigger Business Preparedness scare stories.

6. Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): What Discussions with EU Counterparts recent discussions he has had with business groups to help ensure that they are prepared to leave the EU on 7. Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): What discussions 31 October 2019. [912279] he has had with his EU counterparts over the summer recess on the UK’s departure from the EU. [912280] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (James Duddridge): Since joining The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union the Department on 27 July, I have personally met more (Stephen Barclay): Over the summer recess, I had extensive than 20 business organisations.Since July 2016, Department discussions with my European counterparts—I suspect for Exiting the European Union Ministers have collectively that my right hon. Friend and I saw a little less of the undertaken over 700 meetings with businesses and business summer than some—including in the past fortnight in organisations from every sector in the economy. Paris, Copenhagen, Helsinki and a couple of other places. There has been extensive engagement, and that Andrew Lewer: Northamptonshire is one of the most engagement continues. important logistics hubs in the UK, so what steps are the Department taking to make sure that those firms Mr Dunne: I am very encouraged to hear my right and businesses are up and ready to deal with a possible hon. Friend begin to list some of his summer itinerary. I no-deal Brexit? think that helps to build confidence in the fact that the Government are engaged in serious discussions with the James Duddridge: That is a very sensible question. European Commission and other counterparts. To that The Department has engaged extensively with logistics effect, would he be prepared to publish information on companies and representative bodies from across the whom he has met and the discussions he has had when sector to ensure that they are prepared for 31 October. I not in meetings, with whom and when? encourage my hon. Friend and businesses to consult the public information campaign on gov.uk to get a practical, Mr Speaker: Order. I would just say that I am sure step-by-step guide on what is required for business. that the unknown place to which the Secretary of State That is a powerful thing to do—it is the right thing to has referred has not forgotten that he visited it and its do—in preparing to leave properly on 31 October. inhabitants.

Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): What Stephen Barclay: I fear that I might get into trouble information can the Minister give us about what preparation with the said unknown place, but I hope that a bit of has been done—what proactive contact his Department latitude will be granted. My right hon. Friend raises a has made—with businesses that may not trade directly material point, because it goes to the crux of last night’s with Europe but whose supply chains or customers do debate and the sincerity of the negotiations. The Prime so, and who therefore may not have availed themselves Minister has also had extensive contact through the G7 of the Government web pages? and his visits to Berlin and Paris, among other places, 339 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 340 and there has been the extensive work, to which I pay leave without a deal, the UK will operate the Council of huge tribute, of the Prime Minister’s Europe adviser, Europe convention on extradition with EU member who was in Brussels last week, this week and who has states. We have worked intensively with operational also travelled extensively. Significant work has been partners, both here and across the EU, to ensure that going on, and I am very happy to look at what further there is a smooth transition between the two. detail we can set out. Jack Dromey: Operation Yellowhammer found that a Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): If all that is true, no-deal Brexit could lead to why did Dominic Cummings call the negotiations a “a rise in public disorder and community tensions”. “sham”? Do the Government not recognise that the toxic and irresponsible use of language, such as “collaborators”, Stephen Barclay: First, as the hon. Lady well knows, “treachery”and “surrender”, deepens the divisions in our the Government do not comment on leaks. Secondly, country and puts the public at risk, including Members the issue is really about looking at the substance. Look of this House? Have they not learnt the tragic lessons of at the letter to President Tusk that narrowed down the history? issues. It would have been much easier for the Prime Minister to set out a long list of demands but, because James Duddridge: Let me gently say to the hon. of the seriousness of the negotiations, those have been Gentleman that one thing that will lead to unrest and narrowed down, as set out in that letter. One of the unhappiness is the ignoring of the public and the European Union’scharges against the previous Government referendum result. However, we continue to work with was that they had not been specific enough about what the police and the Army in the normal way. sort of future relationship they sought in the political declaration. The letter answered that very clearly: a Legal Services Sector best-in-class FTA, and one that covers not only the economic side, but security and other aspects. There is 9. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): substance there. The problem with the other side is that What steps his Department is taking with the Department they do not want to leave at all, and therefore they will for International Trade to promote the UK legal services not take yes for an answer. sector overseas. [912282]

Policing and Security The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (James Duddridge): Let me start by 8. Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): thanking my hon. Friend, who does not seem to be in What recent discussions he has had with the Home the Chamber—[HON.MEMBERS: “He is in the Chamber.”] Secretary on the effect on policing and security of the I apologise. That was in no way an insult to my hon. UK leaving the EU without a deal. [912281] Friend’s height or presence. I congratulate him on his work in the Justice Committee. 12. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The Government are committed to maintaining, over What recent discussions he has had with the Home time, the growth in the United Kingdom’s £4.4 billion Secretary on the effect on policing and security of the trade surplus in legal services, and that includes setting UK leaving the EU without a deal. [912285] the right framework in future trade negotiations.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting Robert Neill: There is always more than one way to be the European Union (James Duddridge): I spoke this overlooked. week to the Home Secretary and the Policing Minister Does the Minister accept that, at present, the United about security matters and exiting the European Union. Kingdom has the second largest market in legal services My Department’s Ministers and officials hold regular in the world and the largest in the European Union? meetings with the Home Office, and we are working That is because of the unparalleled access that British closely to prepare for business, keeping our plans under lawyers currently have to EU legal markets under the rigorous review, and I will continue to do so. appropriate directives. Does the Minister recognise that if we are to avoid the 10% hit that the Law Society Mr Bailey: Under a no-deal Brexit, UK police would estimates would be taken by this country’s income lose access to 40 enforcement tools, including the European from its legal services in the event of a no-deal Brexit, arrest warrant and access to European information we must not only preserve maximum access to those databases, which are vital for identifying international markets, but develop a comprehensive strategy across terrorists and criminals who could be targeting this all Departments to market British legal services as a country. Can the Minister explain how that is assisting world centre of excellence elsewhere? us to take back control of our borders? James Duddridge: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. James Duddridge: One thing that will certainly assist Given that 6.5% of global legal services pass through is the 20,000 extra police officers—[Interruption.] I do the United Kingdom and three out of 15 top firms are want to get down to the specifics, but the hon. Gentleman based internationally in the UK, it is essential for us to will forgive me for making a political point, given that work on a cross-departmental basis. The Legal Services we are now into an election—at least, we think that we are GREAT campaign is a good example of this ambitious are into an election. On the specific details, Interpol programme. Since its launch in Singapore in October notices function very similarly to Schengen information 2017, it has operated in more than 30 countries, with system alerts. The hon. Gentleman reasonably talks trade missions to Kazakhstan, China, Chile and Nigeria. about the European arrest warrant. In the event that we Those missions are very effective, and they will continue. 341 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 342

Freedom of Movement James Duddridge: The settled status scheme is working very well: more than 1 million of the 3 million people 10. Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): have applied, nobody has been rejected, and people may What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues apply all the way up to 31 December 2020. on the effect on the rights of (a) EU and (b) UK citizens of immediately ending freedom of movement in the Contingency Planning event that UK leaves the EU on 31 October 2019. [912283] 11. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP): What progress his Department has made on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting contingency planning for the UK leaving the EU without the European Union (James Duddridge): The European a deal. [912284] Union has confirmed that it will grant UK nationals visa-free travel to the Schengen area for short stays of The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union up to 90 days in any 180-day period, even in a no-deal (Stephen Barclay): The Government are delivering more scenario. In the event of no deal, however,the arrangements than 300 specific no-deal projects across a range of for UK nationals travelling to European Union countries sectors and delivery is well advanced. There is still more will change, and we have published advice on gov.uk on work to do and we are turbo-charging our preparation the steps that they will need to take. under the leadership of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Ellie Reeves: Many EU nationals in my constituency have endured incredible stress and anxiety owing to the Gavin Newlands: We have heard so much nonsense uncertainty that they have faced since the referendum. this morning—in fact over the last three years—that it Their rights have been used as a bargaining chip with was not really a surprise to hear the Secretary of State the EU, and the new Home Secretary even proposed talk about a “depreciation of experts”in the Government. legislation to stop freedom of movement immediately Last night, this House voted for legislation to block a after no deal. Will the Minister assure us that citizens’ no-deal Brexit; does he accept the vote of this House rights will no longer be used as a negotiating tool and and will his Government strictly adhere to the rule of will be unilaterally guaranteed? law when this Bill has Royal Assent?

James Duddridge: Citizens’ rights will not be used as Stephen Barclay: It is a little dismissive for the hon. a negotiating tool, and they have not been used as a Gentleman to say that all this is nonsense. That was negotiating tool. The hon. Lady has mischaracterised the first SNP question, so saying that we have already the position. It is the Prime Minister who has made a heard the nonsense seems a tad premature. The reality big, bold offer to EU citizens, and it is now for member is that the Government are preparing extensively for no states to reciprocate. deal. We have a big information campaign that has launched, over 300 projects are under way, and we are Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab): What assessment working actively and constructively with the devolved have the Government made of the impact on people Administrations, including the Scottish Government. with pre-existing health conditions who will no longer be able to use their European health insurance cards to 23. [912297] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): If cover their conditions if they either live in the EU or are the Bill that passed through this House yesterday becomes travelling? an Act of Parliament, it would govern what we do in this country, but of course we cannot guarantee a no deal, because the European Union might not agree to James Duddridge: That will depend on decisions and an extension. So will the Secretary of State confirm that arrangements with individual countries. The UK has the Government will continue to prepare for no deal made a big, bold offer to EU nationals in this country, despite any Act of Parliament, because what happens is and I encourage those countries to reciprocate. not within our control?

Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I welcome Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is a keen observer the Minister to his post. As he will know, over the of these matters, and he is absolutely correct: the decision summer recess a Home Office advertisement relating to on an extension is not a—[Interruption.] The hon. settled status was banned for being misleading. The Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) says “So what”; I am uncertainty created by conflicting messages is causing merely stating the legal position. I am sorry that she real fear among EU citizens in the UK and the British finds the legal position somewhat distasteful, but that is in Europe. the legal position. The legal position on an extension is On 21 August, I wrote to the Secretary of State that it requires the support of every member state seeking clarity on five key issues. I have not received a including the United Kingdom, so my hon. Friend is reply, so I wonder whether the Minister can answer one correct. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady keeps chuntering, of those questions now. I am reassured by his indication but my hon. Friend is correct: we would need to continue that he likes to engage in detail. EU citizens were to prepare for no deal, because it is within the scope of promised that if the UK left the EU without a deal, any member state to block an extension. That is the their rights would be the same as they would be under legal position. the withdrawal agreement. Can the Minister confirm that, despite previous indications to the contrary, the 21. [912295] Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): The Government will retain the right to appeal against Scottish Parliament tonight will vote overwhelmingly, I settled-status decisions in the event of a no-deal Brexit? am sure, to oppose this Government’s intention to crash 343 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 344 out with no deal and to condemn their decision to Stephen Barclay: It is always the case that in government prorogue Parliament for five solid weeks. Nobody we prepare documents to ensure that we have preparations in Scotland voted for no deal, and Scotland voted in place. The point is to determine what is likely to be overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union, so the impact on the EU27, for example, and what we can will the Government pay attention to the views of put in place to address concerns such as those on the Scotland, or do they simply not care? flow of goods. I referred earlier to the fact that two thirds of Ireland’s medicines come through Britain. I Stephen Barclay: Not just this Government will pay could also have mentioned the fact that 40% of Irish attention; I am sure the people of Scotland will pay exports go through Dover. This is an issue that concerns attention to a vote against democracy. It is not the first the Commission and the United Kingdom. That is why time that those on the SNP Benches have ignored the we are preparing these documents, and we are working votes of the British people, whether in the referendum openly with the Scottish Government and others on in 2014 that they want to overturn or in the referendum that. That is what the Government should be doing. of the United Kingdom in 2016. They seem to have a problem with listening to the democratic will of the people. EU Settlement Scheme

Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): In my discussions 14. Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): with Associated British Ports, which manages the port What recent discussions he has had with the Home of Immingham and the other Humber ports, there is a Secretary on the level of uptake for the EU settlement clear indication that they are well prepared in their scheme. [912287] contingency plans to handle any problems that may occur. Can the Secretary of State confirm that our ports The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting are indeed well prepared for no deal and also that they the European Union (James Duddridge): I spoke to the can take much heart from the advantages, such as Home Secretary this week on the issues of the EU free-port status, that will be available post Brexit? settlement scheme. The scheme is operating well: 1 million people have passed through the scheme out of the Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. 3 million, and there have been no rejected applications. Before the reshuffle, I met the ABP and others looking The Prime Minister has made a big, bold offer to EU at these issues, and their preparations are well advanced. citizens, who remain our friends and neighbours and He will also know that the Government have allocated who are welcome here in the United Kingdom. additional funding for those ports, and he will be aware Alan Brown: The Minister says that the system is that, although in this place a huge amount of the debate working well, but I can tell him that the reality is that it tends to focus on Dover because of the vehicle flow is not. My wife Cyndi is an EU citizen, and due to the through it, in terms of the containers and value of Government rhetoric, she reluctantly decided to apply goods, the other ports are actually more significant. for settled status. I can tell the Minister that the system crashed, and that the officials operating it said that they Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): The Yellowhammer could not handle the volume of traffic. Is it because this report that the Government are determined to hide process is a shambles that the Government have had to from us warns of delays of up to two and a half days at do a U-turn on the threat to end freedom of movement ports, freight target capacity being reduced by between on 31 October, or is it the threat of court action that has 40% and 60% and, in terms, medical supplies being caused the U-turn? vulnerable to severe extended delays. The Government tried to pretend that that was an old report, but that was James Duddridge: We have improved the system on not true. It is dated August 2019. They also tried to an ongoing basis, and we are keen to do so. The default pretend that it represented the very worst case scenario, position is that we want people to get that settled status. but that is not true either. It is a reasonable worst case The hon. Gentleman makes specific points about a scenario: not the most likely, but likely enough to need specific case, and I am sure that the Home Office would to be planned for. When will the Government accept be happy to look at that and to understand how it can that all the trade organisations, professional bodies and improve the system further. people who understand the industry who are saying that no deal will be a disaster are right, and that it is this Government who are wrong? Topical Questions

Stephen Barclay: There is an oddity within the hon. T1. [912299] Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): Gentleman’s question. He accuses us of hiding the If he will make a statement on his departmental Yellowhammer documentation, yet it is shared with the responsibilities. Scottish Government as part of our internal working to prepare for no deal. We are not hiding it; in government The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union we prepare documents and on that basis we put in place (Stephen Barclay): Since I last updated the House, I funding and other measures to tackle them. In fact, the have had the pleasure of welcoming the Under-Secretary Public Accounts Committee, among others, would be of State for Exiting the European Union, my hon. the first to criticise us if that detailed preparation was Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East not taking place. (James Duddridge) to his ministerial place. I should like to take this opportunity to thank my right hon. Friends Peter Grant: Will the Government give absolutely the Members for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) and for unreserved and unrestricted permission to the Governments Braintree (James Cleverly), who have now both joined of Scotland and Wales to publish that report in full me in the Cabinet. We have a new Prime Minister, who today: yes or no? is committed to leaving on 31 October, and within the 345 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 346 ministerial portfolios, I welcome the Chancellor of the ambitions of the 2017 joint report relating to Northern Duchy of Lancaster, my right hon. Friend the Member Ireland—not the Good Friday agreement, but the 2017 for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), who has taken on joint report. In particular, it has been reported that the responsibility for domestic operational planning in the UK is rowing back from the “legally operable” solutions context of no deal. This enables me and my Department to avoiding a hard border to what has been described as to focus on negotiations with the EU, in which we will “aspirational”measures—that is quite specific. The pledge seek to achieve a best-in-class free trade agreement. now is only to have trade across the Irish border that is Throughout the summer, I have visited a number of “as frictionless as possible”—again, a difference. These European capitals and had regular conversations with are important issues, and I know that there has been a my key interlocutors, including the Deputy Prime Minister bit of knockabout this morning, but this is of huge of Ireland and the French Europe Minister, with whom importance across Ireland. Will the Secretary of State I had recent productive meetings in Paris. take this opportunity to reject those reports and make it clear that there will be no rowing back from the solemn Louise Haigh: If I was still a serving police officer commitments made two years ago in the 2017 joint report? and I arrested a European national who, unbeknown to me, was wanted for a string of serious violent sexual Stephen Barclay: First, as I said in my previous offences, at the moment I would simply have to access a answer, there has been no rowing back from the Belfast/ database on booking him into custody to find that out. Good Friday agreement, which is an area of common Will the Secretary of State spell out in detail how I or accord between us. Secondly, the reason I pointed towards my custody sergeant would do that if we were to leave north-south co-operation is that, as the right hon. and without a deal on 31 October? learned Gentleman will be well aware, the Prime Minister drew a distinction in the letter to President Tusk between Stephen Barclay: Under the current position, that the backstop and the Northern Ireland protocol. The would depend upon to which member state the situation right hon. and learned Gentleman will also know that, pertained. Wealready have in place a bilateral arrangement while the two terms are often used interchangeably in with Ireland to reflect the common travel area, but the the Chamber, there is a distinction between them, arrangements vary between member states. However, particularly on the basis that the north-south co-operation, the premise of the hon. Lady’s question is right, because the common travel area and the benefits of the single the UK puts more data into the European arrest warrant electricity market are distinct from the points in terms system than any other member state, and we think that of alignment. the UK’s contribution is of value to the European As for right hon. and learned Gentleman’s further Union and that it is not in its interest to put its citizens question around the legally operative text, I addressed at risk by not reciprocating. We stand ready to work that point to some extent in my remarks in the Chamber with member states, but it is the European Commission yesterday in that there is a distinction between the and my counterpart Michel Barnier who have ruled out European Commission saying that all aspects need to what he calls “mini-deals” to address the hon. Lady’s be set out in a legally operative text by 31 October and concerns. looking at, for example, what role the joint committee will have during the implementation period, because the T3. [912301] Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con): When we leave the EU, with or without a deal, will my right implementation period means that things need to be in hon. Friend confirm that the provision of medicines place by the end of December 2020 or, if extended by into the UK will remain uninterrupted? mutual agreement, for one or two further years. It is therefore within that that there is a distinction to be drawn. Stephen Barclay: As was covered earlier in the question T4. [912302] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): session, a huge amount of work has been done by the Does the Secretary of State think there should be a Department of Health and Social Care, including on general election before the next European Council meeting additional procurement capacity and express delivery. so that the British people can decide whether they want That builds on extensive work by the industry, including the Leader of the Opposition as Prime Minister, who the additional stock and additional flow capacity that it will keep us in the European Union, or whether they has procured. want to return our excellent current Prime Minister, Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I want who will take us out by 31 October? to ask specifically about the important issue of Northern Stephen Barclay: Yes, we need to know who, at the Ireland. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the 17 October council, can negotiate for the British people Government remain fully committed to all the existing and, in particular, who can deliver on the express will elements of the December 2017 joint report between set out in the referendum. What we have from Labour the UK and the EU negotiators? Yes or no? Members is doublespeak that will leave us in legislative Stephen Barclay: Our commitments were set out in purgatory, because they are saying, on the one hand, the letter to President Tusk. It contains our commitment that they will vote against every deal that is put forward— to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, which includes three times they voted against the deal, and their own putting no infrastructure at the border to impede north- deal was rejected by the House as well—yet they also south flow. vote against no deal. Well, the inevitable consequence is that they are not Keir Starmer: I asked a careful question, and I got a prepared to leave, even though their own manifesto said careful answer, which did not confirm full commitment, they are. The real question for the British public at the so let me press on. It has been reported this week that next election will be, how can they trust what Labour EU member states were told by the European Commission says in its manifesto on Brexit when it has gone back on that the UK Government were proposing to reduce the every word it said at the last general election? 347 Oral Answers 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Oral Answers 348

T2. [912300] Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Stephen Barclay: I think the hon. Lady would agree Further to the question of my right hon. and learned that there is more than one voice in Tooting. I am sure Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir there will be a range of voices, as indeed there is, but I Starmer), we are now halfway through the time period do not resile from the fact that I am sure she speaks for set by the German Chancellor to produce alternatives a majority in her constituency in making that point. to the backstop. In the light of the Government’s decision My approach is that when this Parliament says it will to prorogue Parliament, perhaps from next Monday, give the British people their say, when the Government will the Secretary of State ensure that their proposals of the day write to the British people saying they will come to this House so that they can be scrutinised by honour the result and when this House then votes by a this House, including the Select Committee on Exiting significant margin to trigger article 50 to deliver on that the European Union? result, it undermines our democracy if Members of this House, on the one hand, vote against a deal and then, Stephen Barclay: I think the Chair of the Select on the other hand, say they will not countenance no Committee would concede that, of the holders of my deal. I think that is a threat to our democracy, and I role—I know there has been more than one—I have think it is a threat to our international reputation as a probably been the most frequent in appearing before his country that defends democracy around the world. Committee and others. Actually, that is not the case when compared with my right hon. Friend the Member T8. [912306] Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): What for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), but it is when steps is my right hon. Friend taking to protect farmers compared with my right hon. Friend the Member for and manufacturers in the hopefully unlikely event of a Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab), who is now Foreign no-deal Brexit? Secretary. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting On the substance of the question, there has been a the European Union (James Duddridge): I thank my huge amount of work. My right hon. Friend the Member hon. Friend for that important question. The Department for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) asked about the different working for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has confirmed groups, for example, and I chair the technical working that it will support farmers in the same cash terms as group. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for they have been supported under the current scheme. We Exiting the European Union chairs the business group, are working with farmers to look at new markets and, and he was in Northern Ireland with that group over across the Government, we continue to work with the summer. businesses, both large and small. We are particularly Again, it goes to the question asked by my right hon. encouraging small businesses to engage with the Friend the Member for Ludlow. Work has been going Government in their preparation for the eventuality of on throughout the summer on alternative arrangements, no deal. but if it is simply published against an all-weather, all-insurance test, it will be dismissed, as it was under Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): the last Government, as magical thinking. That is what I congratulate the Secretary of State on his grand tour the last Government experienced. We need to get into of Europe in recent weeks during the recess, notably to the detail, and that work is going on, but it needs to be Finland, a nation of 5 million people and an enthusiastic discussed in the appropriate way. member of the European Union. Given that the UK was only the seventh largest importer to Finland in T5. [912303] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Ind): 2018, how will leaving the single market and the customs Will my right hon. Friend confirm whether, since 25 July, union improve that dismal position? the Department has had any discussions with the financial sector about the implications of any revised policy, Stephen Barclay: On the one hand, colleagues question which would be a policy of regulatory divergence? whether we are engaging and on the other hand, the hon. Gentleman appears to suggest that we are engaging Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend raises a specific too much. He needs to make up his mind. issue and, as a former Economic Secretary to the Treasury, On how we promote further trade, first, there are I know the markets take a keen interest in such discussions. opportunities beyond Europe that we are keen to seize, If I may, I will ask the Chancellor or the Economic and we have a Secretary of State for International Secretary to come back to him on this specific issue. Trade. [Interruption.] On Finland, about which the hon. Gentleman is chuntering, I chaired a breakfast T6. [912304] Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab): meeting with business leaders when I was in Helsinki Thousands of Tooting residents have signed my local and we looked at, for example, links on key areas such petition against this Government’s dangerous Brexit as timber where there is an appetite to strengthen bilateral plans. Like me, Tooting wants to remain. The Brexit trade further. There was a huge appetite among the Secretary voted against legislation to block a disastrous business leaders I spoke to there to do more trade with no deal. Tooting is absolutely furious. Why is he trying the United Kingdom, including with Scotland as part to drive this country blindly off the Brexit cliff? of that United Kingdom. 349 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 350

HS2 to the most rigorous scrutiny possible. If we are truly to maximise every opportunity, this must always be done 10.31 am with an open mind and a clean sheet of paper. Mr David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con) (Urgent Mr Lidington: I congratulate my right hon. Friend Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if the Secretary of State on his new responsibilities and he will make a statement on the Government’s review of welcome the review that the Government have set up. HS2. I have three questions for my right hon. Friend. First, The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): in view of this week’s revelation that HS2 is overrunning This is my first time at the Dispatch Box as Secretary of both its budget and its schedule—something that many State for Transport and I welcome the opportunity to of us have been predicting for a long time but that has update the House on HS2. been systematically denied for years by HS2 Ltd and by There is no future in obscuring the cost-benefits or his Department—what assurance can my right hon. timetable of HS2, so on 21 August I announced an Friend give about the transparency of both the review independent cross-party review, led by Douglas Oakervee, that has been commissioned and the Government’s of whether and how HS2 should or should not proceed. formal response to it? The review will consider the project’s affordability, Secondly, my right hon. Friend will know that enabling deliverability, benefits, scope and phasing, including its works for HS2 are still being carried out along phase 1 relationship with Northern Powerhouse Rail. The chair of the route.Ancient woodlands are being felled. Productive will be supported by a deputy chair, Lord Berkeley, and farmland is being occupied and used by HS2 Ltd. Public a panel of experts from business, academia and transport money is being spent on these works even though, as my to ensure that its assessment programme is independent, right hon. Friend says, the review may lead to a thorough and objective. Some of the individuals on the recommendation to cancel or significantly change the panel have been passionate advocates and others have project altogether. Will the Secretary of State now accept been vocal critics of the project, but they will provide that those works are prejudicial to the outcome of the input to and be consulted on the report’s conclusions. review that he has established and order that they cease? The review is under way and will report to me on time Thirdly, I have a queue of constituents whose land this autumn. I will discuss its findings with the Prime has been taken by HS2 Ltd for preparatory works, but Minister and the Chancellor, and its recommendations who have still to receive the payments that were formally will help to inform our decisions on the next step or agreed with HS2 Ltd. The Government have rightly otherwise for this project. committed to crack down on late payment. Does my Colleagues will be aware that on our first day back, right hon. Friend agree that HS2 Ltd should be setting 3 September, I placed in the House advice that I received an example in this regard, not acting as a laggard? As over the summer from the recently appointed chairman he, as Secretary of State, is the sole shareholder in of HS2 Ltd, Allan Cook, on the cost and deliverability HS2 Ltd, will he now take responsibility for insisting of the current scheme. He has said that he does not that HS2 Ltd puts this injustice right immediately? believe that the current scheme can be delivered within the budget of £55.7 billion, set at 2015 prices. He Grant Shapps: First, on the budget and the schedule, estimates that it requires a total budget, including it is exactly as I said in my opening statement: I completely contingency, in the range of £72 billion to £78 billion, agree with my right hon. Friend that there is no future again set at 2015 prices. The chairman does not believe in trying to obscure costs or in being unclear. It is the that the current schedule of 2026 will be met for the case that in a massive, developing infrastructure project— initial services of phase 1. He does not think that that is Europe’s biggest—costs just are not known. They are realistic. speculated about and then start to firm up, in this case, In line with lessons from other large major transport literally as we start to dig into the ground. I can see how infrastructure projects, the chairman’s advice proposes over a period of time things move. None the less, I take a range of start dates rather than a specific one. He the view that as soon as I have the information, I will recommends 2028-31 for phase 1, starting with initial inform the House—as soon as I got that Cook report services between London Old Oak Common and and the House returned, I stuck it straight into the Birmingham Curzon Street, followed by services to and Library.I assure my right hon. Friend that I will continue from London Euston later. He expects phase 2b—the to do exactly that going forward. full high-speed line to Manchester and Leeds—to be open Secondly, it might be helpful to colleagues to know between 2035 and 2040. that I have asked for Douglas Oakervee to meet Members The chairman is also of the view that the benefits of of Parliament. He will be in Committee Room 2A on the current scheme are substantially undervalued. All Monday 9 September, between 3.30 pm and 5 pm. That those matters will now be considered by Douglas Oakervee is an opportunity for any colleagues to go and see him. within the scope of Oakervee review. Colleagues can make their own arrangements with him When I announced the independent review into HS2, separately, and I will inform the House of that. I said that I want Doug Oakervee and his panel to Thirdly, on the enabling works, we are in a position assess independently the findings and other available where I have to make a go/no-go decision in December. existing evidence.The review will provide recommendations I know that this will not a delight my right hon. Friend, on whether and how we proceed. but it seemed to me that if we did not continue to make I wish to make one further, wider point. Everyone in preparatory works, I would not even be in the position the House knows that we must invest in modern to make a go/no-go decision. I am sorry to disappoint infrastructure to ensure the future prosperity of our nation. my right hon. Friend, but that is the current position. However, it is right that we subject every single project We can then take a decision. 351 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 352

[Grant Shapps] reneging on the legislation to avoid a no-deal Brexit, Labour relishes the prospect of a general election to I share my right hon. Friend’s concern and anxiety turf them out. about compulsory purchase order payments.When people’s lives, livelihoods and homes are potentially going to be Grant Shapps: On regular reports, I will come back to ripped apart by a project that is supposedly for the the House as many times as it is prepared to hear about wider good, it is right that the state compensates them this matter, and I will continue to update Members in promptly and efficiently. I would be most grateful to see every possible way. It might be helpful if I were to make more details of the cases he mentioned. I have already the introduction—if the hon. Gentleman has not already had one across my desk, which I have sorted out, and I had it—to Doug Oakervee; perhaps I could organise for would like to see others. There is no excuse for a CPO the hon. Gentleman to meet him separately. Of course, for which people are not paid. there are cross-party members on the review panel and it is genuinely full of sceptics. I think people were Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I, too, surprised when we launched a review of this project that congratulate the Secretary of State on his appointment had such a broad, cross-party view. and welcome him to his place. He comes into post at a The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that prices time of crisis for the country, but at an absolutely have changed over time. I seem to recall that this was critical moment for HS2. originally a project by the previous Labour Government I gently remind the Secretary of State that we did ask and that when it was conceived the whole thing was for regular reports and recommended a peer review going to cost about £13 billion. One of the issues that when phase 2a was before the House some weeks ago. I we have, which is a wider issue than just HS2, is that am sorry that he was not able to vote for that—or, these things start off being fixed at a price of a particular indeed, that the Prime Minister was not able to express period of time—the figure of £55.7 billion was about a view at all. 2015 prices—and that does not actually allow for inflation. The Secretary of State mentioned that the review that We therefore end up quoting prices that are just out of is under way is a cross-party one, but I gently point out date. On that basis, every project will always be said to that there has been no consultation whatever with me. If have overrun on cost, although of course the benefits it is to be genuinely cross-party, perhaps he might want probably improve as well. We have to find better ways of to take up that invitation. doing all this. We have consistently been told by the Secretary of I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the first time State’s predecessor and the then ministerial team that that I received advice on this matter was Allan Cook’s the 2015 figure of £55.7 billion for the entire project was final report on 1 August, and that is the report that I the full cost of HS2 and that there was no reason to published. Finally, I undertake to ensure that we return change it. It is hard to conclude anything other than to the House with every update that we have, and I that it has been plain and obvious for some considerable encourage the hon. Gentleman to be involved in the time that this was not accurate. Will the Transport Oakervee review. Secretary tell us when his predecessor was told that the figure of £55.7 billion was not accurate or sustainable Several hon. Members rose— and when he was first told that the timetable for delivery could not be adhered to? Mr Speaker: As colleagues will be aware, there is Is this not yet more evidence that this Government pressure on time today, because there are several further have totally failed to exercise any control over the pieces of business to follow,but equally and understandably project—not just over costs, but with regard to redundancy there is intense interest in this monumental mess and I payments and key appointments that transpired to be know that the Secretary of State is very keen, to his unsustainable? In addition, when the contracts for phase credit, to answer questions, so I shall do my best, as 1 were being granted, despite hedge fund managers always, to accommodate the understandable interest of making a packet out of the inevitable demise of Carillion, colleagues. this Tory Government crashed on regardless, awarding the doomed organisation a valuable HS2 contract. Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): It is beyond doubt that the Government have been Mr Speaker, I was just about to say that there are totally incompetent and reckless, but, worse than that, Members affected by this project who do not have a there hangs over this Government the unpleasant smell that voice, and I was going to include you, but clearly that is Parliament may have been misled—however unwittingly— not the case. Of course, there is also my right hon. Friend given that it is stark staringly obvious that when the the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Minister responsible for HS2 stood at the Dispatch Box Leadsom), who has always joined me in the fight against a matter of weeks ago to tell the House that there was HS2. only one figure and one figure alone for HS2 that In welcoming the Secretary of State to his position, assertion was completely and totally inaccurate. If there may I also welcome my constituency neighbour, my right is going to be delay, what assurances can the Secretary hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington)? of State give to the 9,000 people currently employed It is so good to hear his voice raised in this Chamber by HS2? against this dreadful project, and I endorse everything This Government continue to be characterised by a he said. It applies to my constituency as well. lack of transparency. I welcome the Secretary of State’s The Secretary of State also needs to look at the remarks that he intends to put that right, but it still national rail travel survey, on which one of the raisons remains, as does a lack of candour. Once we can be d’être for this project is based, but which has not been assured that there is no prospect of the Government updated since 2010. In answers to me, the Department 353 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 354 does not appear to know how much it would cost to the Barnett allocations to Scotland, and what will happen update it. That, coupled with the fact that we are still going forward? We were promised at the Dispatch Box not allowed to see the passenger forecasting documentation, that on day one of the high-speed trains operating they means that transparency is far from the watchword of would go all the way to Scotland, and that is now not HS2. Pages right the way through the chairman’sstocktake the case. Will the Secretary of State answer those questions have been redacted. Transparency is not the order of and, if not, please put his responses in writing? the day. The Secretary of State should grasp with both hands Grant Shapps: I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive this opportunity to review the project entirely and review me if I write to him on some of that, rather than detain the nationwide transport and communication policy. the House on all of it. He is absolutely right about the I urge him to take a deep breath and carry out a Allan Cook report. I should have mentioned that in comprehensive assessment across car, bus, train and air, response to my right hon. Friend the Member for as well as new technologies such as 5G and broadband, Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan). I am because it is essential that we look at the technological unhappy about having any of that report redacted. I advances before we let this project go any further. have read the rest of it. It is not hugely exciting. I As the carriages being built for Crossrail pile up in pushed back on that with the Department, and apparently Worksop because we cannot get that project right, let us it is just that the lawyers are saying that it is commercially draw a deep breath, cancel this project, start again and confidential stuff that I cannot force to be released. I get a decent comprehensive transport policy. totally agree with the hon. Gentleman that it would be much better if we could read every single page, but that Grant Shapps: I know that Douglas Oakervee will is the law. [Interruption.] I do not disagree—it is just have been listening to my right hon. Friend’s words with that lawyers will not allow it to happen. great interest and will no doubt take into account the national rail travel survey information. She will of course On downtime when travelling, the hon. Gentleman is meet him as well. I will just reflect on her final point— absolutely right. Lots of people work very productively because of course Douglas Oakervee is looking at all when travelling. It is my favourite time to work this—about all forms of travel across the country. I uninterrupted. I can assure him that Doug Oakervee entirely agree with her. Having ordered it two years ago, will look at that. Allan Cook referred to some of the I recently got an electric car. It finally arrived a couple build benefits where there could be new industry, homes of weeks ago. It is clear that transport is changing in and so on in an area where a line runs. this country and that we have to take a more holistic The last point I will comment on—I will write to the view of it. Rail is one part, but there is much else to hon. Gentleman about the rest—is the implications for consider. the west coast partnership. That is very important. Under the contract, I think in 2026—that it would be in Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): I, line with if HS2 went ahead—the company would too, welcome the Secretary of State to his new position. become a shadow operator, so it is built into that He must be so thankful to have inherited another failing contract if the thing goes ahead. Grayling legacy. We know that the increased costs and delays have Several hon. Members rose— been covered up since 2016 and denied at the Dispatch Box, so, while I welcome the review, should there not be an inquiry into this hiding of key information from the Mr Speaker: Order. There is a further urgent question House? While I welcome the review, I find it strange after this and there are then three ministerial statements that about a third of the document that sets out its before we get to the Backbench business. Therefore, terms has been redacted. Can he explain why? there is a premium upon brevity from Back Benchers and Front Benchers alike. For the avoidance of doubt, What changes will be made to the cost-benefit criteria, what I am looking for from colleagues is not dilation and why? While the Secretary of State said that many of and not preamble but single-sentence questions, which the benefits of the scheme were previously underestimated, will be brilliantly exemplified, I feel sure, by the right hon. I would remind him that the business case rested on the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Sir Patrick McLoughlin). assumption that time business people spent travelling by train should be treated as downtime, meaning that shorter train journeys were treated as increasing productive Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): time, when clearly that is not the case now that we have Thank you for that challenge, Mr Speaker. May I first wi-fi on the go. Will he confirm that that aspect of the welcome my right hon. Friend to his position? business case will not be over-egged? The easiest thing for the Government to do is to The current proposals also mean that journeys north cancel this project. That would be easy to do, but it of Crewe to Scotland will be slower than the existing would be the wrong thing to do, for this reason: I would Virgin service. Will the review look at that and perhaps find it ironical that, as we leave the European Union, I a different type of rolling stock? If it does, what will can get a high-speed train to Paris or to Brussels but that mean for the existing rolling stock and ongoing not to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield. procurement? What further reviews and cost-benefit My right hon. Friend talks about the overspend, but we analyses will be done of track design that could mean seem to be able to accommodate at the drop of a hat the slower high-speed trains but reduced costs? What is the overspend on the Crossrail project, which is overrunning. contractual status of the recent contract awards to First That is a London project that is incredibly important Trenitalia, given that the Government might now be for London, but we do not take a similar view of a doing a full stock decision? What would that mean for project that has been long thought out and is absolutely that contract? What is the committed spend, to date, in essential for the major cities outside London. 355 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 356

Grant Shapps: I am not short of advice on what to do Grant Shapps: Even with the Olympics, the cost changed on HS2, but few pieces of advice come from somebody over a period. The hon. Gentleman will know that big as distinguished as a former Transport Secretary. I have projects require management, and the process is designed heard what he has had to say, as I know Doug Oakervee to ensure that this is properly grasped. I agree with will have done, and I look forward to taking it into him—we need to deliver that transport infrastructure account. across the north. I am surprised that no Member has mentioned it yet, but these two questions are not entirely Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I welcome unrelated, so we must get it right for the north and for the Secretary of State to his place. all our country. The Secretary of State must understand the huge disappointment in the east midlands that HS2 phase 2b Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): I —which will, as the right hon. Member for Derbyshire am not sure it is the entirely appropriate expression to Dales (Sir Patrick McLoughlin) said, transform connectivity congratulate my right hon. Friend on inheriting between Birmingham and the economies of the midlands, responsibility for HS2, but I wholeheartedly congratulate Yorkshire, the north-east and Scotland—is now facing him on becoming the Secretary of State. In agreeing a delay of up to seven years, or even cancellation. That entirely with what my right hon. Friend the Member for is particularly the case when the Chancellor failed to Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) said, may I press the Secretary even mention the midlands rail hub in his spending State on the point he made about enabling works? As he review and when the Secretary of State’s predecessor knows, there is more than one kind of enabling work not only repeatedly assured us that HS2 would happen currently under way. Some of the enabling work is the but cancelled the electrification of the midland main destruction of ancient woodland sites. There are seven line. I know that the Oakervee review is due to report, of them in my constituency, along with a very old and but the disappointment will turn to deep anger if the much valued pear tree in the village of Cubbington. Secretary of State does not ensure that the midlands Given that he has announced an all-options review, receives the investment in its transport that it needs. including the possibility that this project will be cancelled or significantly revised, surely it is possible and sensible Grant Shapps: I thank the hon. Lady; it is a pleasure to categorise those types of enabling work that will do to have a question from the Chair of the Transport irreversible damage and postpone them until the review Committee. The one thing I can assure her of is that has concluded. He has already announced a substantial there will be £48 billion of other unrelated rail investment delay in this project. Surely a delay of a few weeks more over the next few years, so both the midlands and the would be sensible, to ensure that we do not do irreversible northern powerhouse rail side of things will certainly damage. have huge—massive—investment. Grant Shapps: As I said before, to have a proper Several hon. Members rose— go/no-go decision, we need to continue to allow enabling works. However, I can ask the Under-Secretary of State Mr Speaker: Reiterating my plea for brevity, I hopefully for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool call Sir William Cash. North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who is handling these major projects, to meet my right hon. and learned Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Friend to discuss that specific concern. First, I welcome the Secretary of State to his new position. Secondly, I entirely endorse the views of my right hon. Friends the Members for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Unlike Derbyshire and for Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan). Dales, HS2 goes through many villages in the Bolsover The reality is that this whole project is completely out of and north-east Derbyshire area. The result is that there control. The costs have gone up repeatedly. I voted are a lot of people in those villages—more than 100— against it. There is a petition in the House of Lords, affected by HS2. I want to know as soon as possible just which my constituents were absolutely right to pursue. exactly what is going to happen to this £100 billion This whole project is a complete white elephant and project. It goes through Derbyshire on two separate should be cancelled. lines. Not only does it go past Sheffield; it also stops at a Sheffield station, so there is a slow track and a fast track Grant Shapps: As I say, I am not short of advice on in Derbyshire. The idea that HS2 is based upon getting this, and Doug Oakervee will definitely have heard my to London 30 minutes sooner is a joke and, for that hon. Friend’s words. reason, the Secretary of State should start over again.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Grant Shapps: I know that the hon. Gentleman’s will try to be brief, Mr Speaker. I have always been constituency is affected in a big way. I refer to what I against this. I was reviled by Ministers when I said that said before. This project affects a lot of people’s lives, the cost would end up at £100 billion. I wanted the with demolitions and the rest of it in his patch. He investment in a network across the north of England in asked me to do this as soon as possible. I have Douglas preference to this. Will the Secretary of State assure me Oakervee on an unbelievable timetable, supported by a that we will learn the lessons? This is a great sector that fantastic group of people, to get this done and reported we do wonderful things in. We built the Olympics on back this autumn. The hon. Gentleman will not have to time, and it was magnificent. I understand that there wait before the end of the year. are 12 gagging orders for senior former employees of HS2 Ltd. Can they give evidence to this inquiry, and Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con): Long Eaton, Sandiacre can we ensure that we learn the lessons? We are good in and Stanton Gate are grossly affected by the eastern this sector, so why has this gone wrong? arm of HS2, but as the Chair of the Transport Committee 357 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 358 has already indicated, it brings advantages as well—jobs to our trains—and, once again, we are just expected to and growth as well as the pain. I will say two things. accept a trickle-down of benefits many decades into the One is that any delay causes further stress and uncertainty future. It is not good enough. When will we actually get not just for residents, but for businesses. They will be a fair deal for our towns? blighted for ever more, even if my right hon. Friend takes the easier way out and cancels the eastern arm. Grant Shapps: As the representative of two towns—one, My plea to him is: do not cancel that eastern arm. I will Welwyn Garden, calls itself a city, but it is actually a not allow the east midlands and Erewash to be the poor town—I absolutely agree with the idea that towns have relations yet again. a significant part to play in the economic and social life of our country. One good piece of news: those Pacers Grant Shapps: I think every exchange indicates that, are finally going by the end of this year.1 while everyone is able to welcome a review, when we get to the announcement of that review on the other side Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): At what the House will not be quite so united, but I absolutely level of exorbitant expenditure will the Government hear my hon. Friend’s comments. finally decide to pull the plug?

Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): Inflation Grant Shapps: As I say, it is not just a question of the aside, this multi-billion increase in cost betrays nothing expenditure. As I mentioned before, it is also what the other than sheer incompetence in the management of benefits are. May I ask my right hon. Friend just to be this project. In the west midlands, 100,000 jobs are now patient enough so that the data is covered on both sides in jeopardy; hundreds of millions of pounds of new of that, and we can come to a rational and sensible rates are now in jeopardy; and the future prospects of decision? the younger generation are now in jeopardy. I want to know from the Secretary of State what compensation has been sought by the Mayor of the West Midlands, Several hon. Members rose— because my understanding is that he has asked for precisely nothing? Mr Speaker: Colleagues should now follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) with single- Grant Shapps: We have a range of different people on sentence questions. If they do not—let us be absolutely the Doug Oakervee board, including Andy Street, and clear—they are stopping other colleagues taking part. we are making sure that all the representations go into It is as simple as that. it. As I say, I do not want to rush to prejudge this. We do know certain things. We know from the Allan Cook Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): Will the Secretary of report about the range of £72 billion to £78 billion. I do State commit to look at any new major transport not have confidence in the data I have been provided infrastructure projects in line with the 2050 net zero with to know yet whether the benefits have outstripped carbon target that this House has set itself? or under-stripped these various different costs. I just start with a blank sheet of paper. I just want the data: Grant Shapps: Yes. give me the facts and then we will be in a much better position to decide, including for people throughout the Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): There is a north- west midlands. south divide when it comes to transport spending. Can the Secretary of State give an assurance that he will Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con): I am sure I was as consider the benefits to the northern economy when he pleased as you were, Mr Speaker, to hear about the reaches his decision? review undertaken by the new Secretary of State. Can he reassure me that, as part of the new cost-benefit analysis, the review will take into account that many Grant Shapps: Absolutely. people work very hard while on trains, as I am about to do as I return to my constituency on a high-speed train Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): run by Chiltern Rail? What is the status of the review if we go to the polls this autumn? My constituents see this as a pre-election bribe Grant Shapps: Absolutely. Travelling on a train can for the Government’s voters in the shires. be a fantastic way to chomp through constituency work or anything else that people are doing on business or for Grant Shapps: This project is too serious to be thinking pleasure. It is one of the most civilised ways to work—when in those terms, and I certainly was not when I asked we have our trains running on time, which is another Douglas Oakervee to carry out this review. As I have related priority. now said twice, this is about people’s lives and livelihoods and the ability of this country’s economy to function. Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Regardless of what happens when we finally get that (Lab): Will the Government widen this review not just election call, I hope there will be cross-party consensus to their complete lack of grip on the HS2 project, but to to continue this important work on a cross-party basis the continued failure of the Department to remember and get the job done. that there are towns as well as cities in this country? It is continually locking billions of pounds into ever-delayed, Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Will the ever-escalating projects for cities, while towns such as Secretary of State look at the cost envelope by taking Castleford and Pontefract have inadequate trains— into account enhancements that benefit those on the overcrowded, old Pacer trains, with no disabled access route, inflation and incompetence? 1.[Official Report, 9 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 5MC.] 359 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 360

Grant Shapps: As the terms of reference, which I Grant Shapps: I do not think there is any direct encourage right hon. and hon. Members to read, make ramification. Wehave just re-let the west coast partnership clear, this review is wide ranging and takes all such contract, so the answer to my hon. Friend is, none. matters into account. Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): HS2 is Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Given vital for the economy of Manchester and the north. As the delays to the southern section of the route, will the the chairman’s stocktake says: Secretary of State ask the review to consider the possibility “HS2 is not a standalone railway but rather an integral part of of starting the northern sections before the southern ambitious regional growth plans,” section is finished, so that there is a degree of working and it is already attracting investment. Will the Secretary overlap? of State assure us that those wider benefits will fully be taken into account in this review? Grant Shapps: That is one of the things that Douglas Oakervee is looking at. Interestingly, Allan Cook’s report, Grant Shapps: I can. I have met the Mayor of Manchester which is in the Library, suggests doing phases 1 and 2a and Mayors across the north, and I am due to meet together. them again shortly. Those things absolutely will be taken into account. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I agree with my right hon. Friend that spiralling costs must be Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I voted against challenged and held to account, but this project is vital HS2 every time. Would the money be better spent on for the northern routes, which are already overstretched. improvements to our existing conventional rail network? Will he assure me that this review is not just a smokescreen to cancel the project, which many of our current Executive Grant Shapps: The answer is that I do not know, but I do not like? like to think that £48 billion on improving and upgrading our existing networks is a good down payment. Grant Shapps: My hon. Friend’s question reminds me of a clip that I made on the day of announcing this full, Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP): The Under-Secretary thorough and open review.When the camera was switched of State for Transport assured me that the full stretch of off they said, “What do you really think?” What I really HS2 will go up to Scotland. Is that the case, and when? think is that we should have a full, thorough and open review. Grant Shapps: As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are currently struggling with stages 1, 2a and 2b, but the overall plan was always to go further. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Business leaders in Sheffield are deeply concerned about this Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Will review. Does the Secretary of State recognise that, the Secretary of State commit to investing in the costs whatever else he is considering, cancellation would damage of places with collateral damage, such as villages such the northern economy? as Woore in my constituency that will suffer grievously during the construction process? Will he also commit to Grant Shapps: I assure the hon. Gentleman that, look at the value of spending £100 billion, which this whatever happens, the northern economy and northern project is cantering towards, on full-fibre broadband for powerhouse rail is set to steam ahead. every household?

Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Will the review take Grant Shapps: We must have full-fibre broadband in into account the potential negative effects of the business every household, and that is a commitment of this case on the existing and vital west coast main line? Government regardless. My right hon. Friend describes devastation to villages, and I agree that we must find a Grant Shapps: Yes it will, and I ask my hon. Friend to better way of doing this. We must look after people meet Douglas Oakervee to make those points, because properly when great national projects drive through every element of this is being taken into account. their homes. David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Significant UK and John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Are there Welsh Government money, linked to HS2 at Crewe, is not many abandoned former railway lines across the going into growth deals in north Wales.What opportunities country for which, for the first time in a long time, there are there for the Welsh Government to formally feed is now extensive demand? Those could be reopened for into the review? a fraction of the cost of HS2. Grant Shapps: There are enormous opportunities. If Grant Shapps: With huge respect to him, I curse not on Monday, at the time I mentioned at the Dispatch Beeching every day in this job and I entirely agree with Box earlier, then separately I am very happy to hook up the hon. Gentleman. the right hon. Gentleman, and any of his colleagues, with Doug Oakervee. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What will be the effect of a delay or cancellation of HS2 on the west coast Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): HS2 will be the main line, which is of concern to my constituents in most expensive railway ever built by mankind. Does the Rugby? Secretary of State agree that there is a very significant 361 HS2 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 HS2 362 opportunity cost and therefore to get bang for our buck that it will have thoroughly considered the impacts that we should be investing in significant regional infrastructure scrapping or changing phases 2a and 2b would have on projects? Crewe and Nantwich, as a significant centre of economic activity for the wider region? Grant Shapps: That is very effective lobbying. My hon. Friend has already secured a great achievement Grant Shapps: Yes, I think I can reassure the hon. with regards to the railway on his own Island. He proves Lady that, although the review is reporting very quickly— that we can do both things simultaneously if we need to. within weeks, as she says—the experience on the panel adds up to years. I have not added it up, but it is Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): possibly hundreds of years of rail experience. I think The key rail investment in the north has to be a high-speed they will really take that into account. Again, I invite link between Liverpool in the west and Hull in the east. and welcome her to speak to Douglas Oakervee to Is it not right that any additional resources should be make sure 2a and 2b are fully represented in her terms. put into that, rather than HS2? Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): Can Grant Shapps: I would extend that further to Sheffield, the Secretary of State give us a date for when we can Hull, Newcastle and other cities in the north. We can do expect HS2 to be extended to Scotland? If not, are the both things and we will do both things: both upgrading people of Scotland expected to sit and watch £100 billion the national rail infrastructure and—the Prime Minister being spent on this project when it literally pulls up short? mentioned this in his first speech, which he made in Manchester, so I think it would be a bit churlish not to Grant Shapps: I do not want to disappoint the hon. recognise it—linking northern cities. Lady, but I cannot give her a date on the initial phases, let alone on that extension. I do think there is a very Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The problem good point here about linking up our Union. I am with HS2 is that the benefits are not shared around the pleased to see the nationalist side so onside with that country. The west, in particular, gains nothing. Will the project. Secretary of State look at how we could put the money into electrification and rebuilding the Severn tunnel? Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary of State mentions the extension to Scotland. Grant Shapps: I do not know in what form this will or However,journey times between Glasgow and Manchester will not take place, but I do know that the jobs, skills will increase as a result of HS2. Will he ask the review and supply chain affect the entire nation. There is to consider expediting an extension north to Glasgow almost not a constituency in the country that would not from Manchester as a matter of urgency? benefit in some way.As with any big national infrastructure project, we need to ensure that the benefits of that work Grant Shapps: Again, I think this comes into the and supply chain are spread across the nation. wider picture. The £48 billion of rail investment over five years means that we should be able to do lots of Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): Given different things at the same time—and indeed, we are. I that the entire review will be completed in a matter of think that is part of the wider infrastructure project for weeks, can the Secretary of State really have confidence improvements on rail throughout the country. 363 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Northern Ireland 364

Northern Ireland the summer that in the circumstances that it “voted for no deal”, or in any case, if there were no deal, “we”—the 11.13 am Government— “would have to start formal engagement with the Irish Government Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To about…providing strengthened decision making in the event of ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he that outcome. That would include the real possibility of imposing will respond to the urgent question of which I have a form of direct rule.”—[Official Report, 13 March 2019; Vol. 656, given prior notice? c. 391.] The Foreign Secretary told the “Today” programme The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian that direct rule would require legislation and made it Smith): First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his quite clear that the Secretary of State for Northern constructive work over the summer on a range of issues, Ireland would need to follow that up. Does the Secretary including those relating to Harland and Wolff. Secondly, of State accept that some form of direct governance—of may I remind Members that I have been held captive in direct accountability—would be necessary in the event the Whips Office for over three years and that this is of a no-deal Brexit? Can he tell us what steps he is therefore my first Dispatch Box appearance? I have to taking? be honest and say that I am very grateful not to be the Finally, in any part of the United Kingdom we expect Government’s current Chief Whip. the security of our people to be paramount. There will As is my duty under the Northern Ireland (Executive be some real questions about making sure that the Formation) Act 2019, I will publish a report on or Police Service of Northern Ireland has the resources before 9 October to update on progress. Throughout that it needs. Will the Secretary of State tell the House the period ahead, I will be doing everything I can to how he intends to make sure that the allocation of those support and encourage talks to succeed. Democratically resources ensures that the PSNI has the resource base elected politicians in Northern Ireland are best placed and numbers that it needs? If this were your constituency, to take the decisions needed to support hospitals, schools Mr Speaker, or Rochdale, Skipton and Ripon, Wales or and the police. I have seen the excellent work of civil Scotland, this situation would not be allowed to happen. servants in Northern Ireland over the last few weeks, I hope that the Secretary of State shares my view that but of course they cannot take the proactive decisions this cannot be allowed to frustrate and put Northern that are needed on public services or the economy in the Ireland in a position of discomfort, or worse. run-up to 31 October. If we cannot secure the restoration of an Executive, we will pursue the decision-making Julian Smith: The hon. Gentleman asks about dangers. powers that are needed at the earliest opportunity. I think I have been very honest with the House that powers are needed to ensure, not only in the current Tony Lloyd: I welcome the Secretary of State to his situation, where civil servants across Northern Ireland role and his appearance at the Dispatch Box. He will are making difficult decisions without political direction, know that Northern Ireland is in a unique position in but obviously in the run-up either to a deal or no deal, the United Kingdom: it has no devolved Government, that the very tricky decisions can be made, and I am nor does the Secretary of State or any member of the sure that those will have to be made at pace. UK Government have powers to deliver the kind of The hon. Gentleman asks about the legal advice on transformation that is needed. I know from my Prorogation. It was not something that I or my Department conversations with senior members of the Northern Ireland was involved in. That was a matter for the Attorney civil service that they are frustrated by their inability to General. As Parliament is aware, the Cabinet was updated make the decisions—whether on health, education or shortly before the decision was announced. the issues that we now face—that Northern Ireland so desperately needs. On what happens if the talks do not succeed in time, again, I have been clear that we need to have powers at In that context, we face the Prorogation of Parliament the earliest opportunity because some of the challenges and the possibility—I accept it is a possibility—of a that will emerge will do so fairly soon, but we have to no-deal Brexit and a general election coming fast down operate in the environment governed by the Good Friday the track. The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation agreement. On that point, certainly in the discussions and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 will expire some that I am having with the Irish Foreign Secretary on the time in October,and I have a number of specific questions talks, the relationship is very positive. that I need to put to the Secretary of State about the good governance of Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman asked about the PSNI. As he will be aware, the PSNI has gained about £20 million of The first examines the question of Prorogation. We additional funding. However, when we look at how we know that we face the possibility of Prorogation next direct funding and make those decisions, we see that, to week and that that provides enormous challenges in ensure that a large and important part of our country is terms of governance. Yes, if we can see Stormont back not left ungoverned at a difficult time, we do need in operation, that will achieve what we need, but does powers to be in place. the Secretary of State accept that there are real dangers during a period of Prorogation, in terms of the governance Several hon. Members rose— of Northern Ireland? Will he tell the House precisely when he was consulted about Prorogation? What advice Mr Speaker: Order. In the name of expediting business, did he give to the Prime Minister and other members of I appeal for extreme brevity. the Government? Turning to a no-deal Brexit, the now Chancellor of Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): I echo entirely the Duchy of Lancaster, the right hon. Member for the concerns of the shadow Secretary of State. My right Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), told the House before hon. Friend’s commitment to Northern Ireland is not in 365 Northern Ireland 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Northern Ireland 366 question, but the impression coming out of some sections through no fault of their own? They need redress and of the Government is that Northern Ireland could they need it urgently. Can he assure me that he will easily now be collateral damage, so may I ask him a deliver that? specific question? He referred to the Attorney General’s legal advice on Prorogation, which he will have seen. Julian Smith: May I first pay tribute to my right hon. Did it make specific reference to the unique and pressing Friend, who did an exceptional job as Secretary of State needs of Northern Ireland and how they might be for Northern Ireland. She will know of the trauma that attenuated as the Prime Minister set out his strategy, victims have suffered. It is now three years since the and if not, why not? Hart report was published, and the work that she did means that the Bill could now be presented at the earliest Julian Smith: It would obviously be inappropriate for opportunity. I hope that we will get that into the Queen’s me to discuss the details of that legal advice in the Speech and ensure that we solve the issue once and House, but suffice it to say that I have indicated that, to for all. preserve the rights of citizens in Northern Ireland, we David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): In the absence of a need to get Stormont up and running again or, failing Stormont Government, and in view of the potential that, ensure that powers are in place to protect those difficulties arising from no deal, will the Secretary of rights, jobs and the economy and the commitments State clarify who will make decisions during that period made by the Irish and UK Governments on the Good and tell us what discussions he has had both with the Friday agreement. political parties and the Irish Government about the implications of direct rule? Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP): The impact of no deal on the devolved nations Julian Smith: I strongly believe that getting the talks has been well documented, with Northern Ireland at up and running, and getting Stormont up and running, particular risk owing to the border. Reports that the is in the best interests of Northern Ireland and is the Government are trying to row back from their 2017 best route for decision making. Obviously, along with joint report commitments are deeply concerning. Do Cabinet colleagues, I am considering alternatives should the UK Government not see that this particular game that fail, but we have to try to get Stormont up and of brinkmanship that the Prime Minister is playing running. could have catastrophic consequences for the people on Northern Ireland, and will the Secretary of State now Mr David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): I welcome commit to ensuring that no deal is taken off the table? my right hon. Friend to his responsibilities. Does he Such moments press home more clearly than ever the agree that it would be frankly unconscionable for any need for Northern Ireland to have a functioning legislature, Government to lead us into a no-deal Brexit in which so what progress has been made over the summer to the Northern Ireland civil service lacked the legal powers ensure that Stormont is reconvened at the earliest and authority to cope with those circumstances? Does opportunity? this not point to the need for legislation to be introduced Finally, the Prime Minister said that he had not and enacted before the end of October? decided to prorogue Parliament, but we have now learned Julian Smith: I think it is vital that, first and foremost, from evidence in Scotland’s Court of Session that, in we get the talks up and running. If that does not work, reality, he had already signed off on Prorogation in his we must establish powers to ensure that we are making red box. Can the Secretary of State tell us why there is all the decisions in the best possible way for the citizens such a disconnect between the Prime Minister’s words of Northern Ireland. and his actions? Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome the Julian Smith: On the question of deal versus no deal, Secretary of State and his ministerial team to their my job is to lead the efforts for Northern Ireland to posts. We look forward to working with them in the prepare for no deal, but I could not be clearer in my days and weeks ahead. mind that a deal is in the best interests of Northern Let me reiterate our commitment to getting Stormont Ireland. As for the talks, we have issued the report up and running as quickly as possible, although I welcome outlining what occurred over the summer. These have the concentration on the need for direct decision-making been at a differing pace throughout the summer. There powers to be taken in the event that that is not possible. have been good talks. The issues are important, but not As the shadow Secretary of State said, it is extremely insolvable. I again pay tribute to Simon Coveney and important that Northern Ireland is not left, uniquely, in officials for the work that has been done over the the terrible position of having no one in charge during summer to get us to a point where we are not far from these critical days. the finishing line, if the parties want to push forward. Does the Secretary of State welcome the publication of remarks made by the Foreign Minister of the Irish Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I Republic yesterday, in which he indicated that in the join the shadow Secretary of State in expressing concern event of no deal there would no checks or infrastructure about the impact that Prorogation may have on the on the border? We should build on that, because there is people of Northern Ireland. Can my right hon. Friend room for progress towards securing a deal, which we all the Secretary of State—I welcome him to his new post want. and wish him every success—ensure that during Prorogation the Government will not stop working for those who Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for his need redress, and by that I mean the victims of historical kind remarks. Thankfully, the EU negotiations are not institutional sexual abuse and those who were severely my responsibility, but I do think that a deal is in the best physically or psychologically disabled during the troubles interests of Northern Ireland. 367 Northern Ireland 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Northern Ireland 368

Mr Speaker: A single sentence, I think. Owen Paterson. Secretary of State be able to bring forward a report or a Bill on institutional historical abuse cases, which was Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Everyone promised before the recess? in the House supports the Belfast agreement, and everyone in the House would like to see the institutions up and Julian Smith: I hope we will be introducing that in the running again, but we cannot bludgeon one party into coming weeks. co-operating, and in the meantime outcomes are deteriorating for our fellow citizens. The Bengoa report Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Will the was published in October 2016. While he is looking at Secretary of State confirm that there are no circumstances, this, will the Secretary of State also consider what including a no-deal Brexit, under which the British powers he could take to benefit every citizen in Northern Government would erect a hard border on the island of Ireland? Ireland?

Julian Smith: I know from visiting hospitals and Julian Smith: We are fully committed to no hard schools that my hon. Friend is absolutely right. For too border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. long, public servants have been having to make decisions that should have been made by politicians. I must be frank with the House. The powers that I have—the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In the Sunday powers that are available for decision making—are extremely papers at the weekend, there were indications that dissident limited, and that is why it is a priority for us to get republicans are contacting experienced bomb makers in Stormont up and running. the IRA to make a spectacular big bomb. What is being done to prevent dissident republicans from making Mr Speaker: Lady Hermon: a single sentence, I think. contact with the bomb makers, to ensure that those bombs never happen in Northern Ireland or anywhere in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Of course, Ireland? Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State—whom I warmly congratulate Julian Smith: The PSNI and the security services have on his appointment, while also thanking his predecessor— done an exceptional job over the summer. I pay tribute will know from the very angry and concerned to them and their families, because people are trying to representations that I have already made to his office kill them—that is on the increase and certainly was over that I am extremely worried and annoyed that a statutory the summer. I have decided to convene a weekly security instrument which governs key appointments to a range meeting that includes the PSNI to make sure that in the of bodies in Northern Ireland—including appointments coming weeks and months I am apprised on a regular of QCs—has been put in jeopardy by Prorogation. I basis and meeting those people who are leading these need a commitment, a guarantee, from the Secretary of teams putting their lives on the line. State today that that statutory instrument will be debated in the House on Monday, or on Tuesday, but certainly before Prorogation. It affects people’s lives in Northern Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): Ireland, and the Secretary of State has a responsibility In congratulating the new Secretary of State, may I ask to protect those lives. him what he plans to do about stopping the relentless hounding of Army and police veterans in respect of alleged historical crimes when most of the evidence has Julian Smith: I hope to table a motion for the statutory disappeared? What is he going to do about it? instrument early next week.

Mr David Gauke (South West Hertfordshire) (Ind): It Julian Smith: As my hon. Friend will have seen from is clear from what my right hon. Friend is saying that if the report we laid yesterday and from the comments the we have a no-deal Brexit and Stormont is not up and Prime Minister has made, there has been a new cross- running, to protect the rights of Northern Ireland, we Government effort to ensure that we look at this issue. I need to take powers; to take powers, we need to legislate; know that he has raised this issue many times in this and to legislate, the House needs to be sitting. Is it not House, and I hope he welcomes the fact that the also clear that if the House does not pass that legislation Government accept that the current situation is not by the end of October because it has been prorogued or working and that we need to relook at and revisit this dissolved, the rights of the people of Northern Ireland area. I and a number of my right hon. Friends in the will be detrimentally affected? Cabinet are doing so and look forward to reporting to the House in due course. Julian Smith: Again, the priority has to be getting Stormont up and running. I have been honest and open Several hon. Members rose— to the House about the need for powers, and clearly my right hon. Friend is right that at the very heart of the Mr Speaker: I remind colleagues that a single-sentence need for those powers are the rights of citizens in question is imperative. Northern Ireland. Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): Given the unique Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Is the Secretary challenges that Prorogation or Dissolution present to of State sickened already by people talking up the the Northern Ireland Office, why was the Secretary of dangers—almost cheerleading and willing on the problems State not consulted by the Prime Minister or Dominic instead of helping to find solutions? When will the Cummings before the Prorogation plan was agreed? 369 Northern Ireland 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Northern Ireland 370

Julian Smith: The Cabinet was updated immediately Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con): I welcome my right before the decision; the hon. Gentleman will have to ask hon. Friend to his place. I am pleased to see that he is others about the first part of his question. committed to legislation for victims of institutional abuse being in the Queen’s Speech. Can he commit to Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): The Northern that legislation coming to this place before the end of Ireland civil service was clear that a decision to extend year? the welfare mitigation package was needed this autumn or else it would have to start taking alternative measures Julian Smith: Yes, I can. to advise Northern Ireland recipients of them on what action they should take. Has the Secretary of State got Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): If a plan to extend the welfare mitigations in the near we prorogue and then move to Dissolution and Stormont future? is still not sitting, what will happen to the provisions of the Northern Irish Bill that repeal sections 58 and59 Julian Smith: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 after State for Work and Pensions was in Northern Ireland 22 October? last week. I continue to work with her and she is actively involved in looking at the issue of welfare not only in Julian Smith: Those provisions remain. Great Britain but across Northern Ireland. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Just this week, Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Secretary Northern Ireland has received over £400 million extra of State agree that the actions of the Labour party in the spending review. Does my right hon. Friend agree yesterday in forcing through the pro-EU anti-democratic that the people of Northern Ireland will get far better surrender Bill will make it more difficult for the Government value for that money in all areas of spending by having to reach an agreement with the EU and therefore produce the Assembly up and running? a situation in which direct rule is likely? Will he give an assurance that he will not shy away from the decision Julian Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that should, quite frankly, have been made a long time about the £400 million, but we need a political decision ago? making body, the Executive, to ensure that it is directed in the best interests of Northern Ireland citizens. Julian Smith: We have to focus on getting a deal for Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): Northern Ireland. That is my priority in supporting the The Secretary of State’s former boss instigated a review Prime Minister, and that is his priority. Let us get into the Home Office forcing British identity on those Stormont up and running. That will solve many of the who identify as Irish, such as Emma de Souza back in issues that we are concerned about today. February. Can the Secretary of State advise the House whether his new boss has binned that review? If not, Mr Speaker: My apologies to the right hon. Member why not, and when will he publish it? for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire). If I had seen him earlier, I would have called him earlier, but Julian Smith: It is vital that this House continues to it is a pleasure to call him now. respect the dual citizenship components that the hon. Gentleman talks about and ensures that they are preserved. James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): The review is taking place, and I have made strong Thank you, Mr Speaker. I congratulate my right hon. representations. The Government are fully committed Friend on his appointment. It is a privilege to serve in to the Good Friday agreement obligations. office and I wish him all success with his role. He highlighted in his written statement yesterday the need Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The to intensify negotiations with the parties. That is the Prime Minister says that a hard border can be avoided way to avoid legislation being needed. Perhaps he could by the use of existing technology, so can the Secretary set out what form he expects that to take. of State explain what technology can check passports, visas and customs arrangements for goods without so Julian Smith: As I mentioned earlier, we have been much as a camera at the border? having good discussions over the summer. I met the Irish Foreign Minister last Friday and we will be meeting Julian Smith: The Government are fully committed, again this Friday. I hope to push forward, with him, on as are the Irish Government, to the common travel area working with the parties to get into a position where we in all deal and no-deal scenarios. have the best possible opportunity to get Stormont up and running. Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker— Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): We heard from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) yesterday Mr Speaker: As the hon. Gentleman’s point of order about the Prime Minister’s failure, to date, to meet the appertains to the matters of which we have just treated, Taoiseach, so what engagement on Prorogation has I will take it if it is brief. there been with the Irish Government in their capacity as co-guarantors under the Good Friday agreement? Tony Lloyd: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State was very candid in his admission that he was Julian Smith: I meet the Irish Foreign Minister regularly, not consulted about Prorogation. Important decisions but I have not discussed the issue of Prorogation. have to be made about Northern Ireland’s governance 371 Northern Ireland 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 372

[Tony Lloyd] Building Safety over this period. Can we have a clear statement, perhaps from the Prime Minister, that there will be time, either 11.40 am before Prorogation or at a convenient time for this The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and House, to give the Secretary of State the power to do Local Government (Robert Jenrick): With permission, I the things that Northern Ireland needs? wish to take this early opportunity as Secretary of State to update the House on the Government’s progress on Mr Speaker: Does the Secretary of State wish to building safety and to set out this Administration’s respond? approach. Two years on from the Grenfell tragedy, it remains our priority to ensure that we have a building Julian Smith indicated dissent. safety system that people can trust. In taking on this role, I have been mindful of my responsibility to the Mr Speaker: He does not wish to respond. Okay. The bereaved and the survivors of that tragedy. We must point of order has been heard. It is not a matter for support them to recover and rebuild their lives. I am adjudication by the Chair, but I want to say to the pleased that we will have the continued support of my Secretary of State that the concern that has been expressed right hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood on this matter on both sides of the House, including by and Pinner (Mr Hurd) as Minister for Grenfell victims. a number of former Northern Ireland Secretaries, will I am determined to play my part in their pursuit of have registered very firmly with the right hon. Gentleman, answers and justice and to ensure that all residents of and more must be heard about this matter ere long. We high-rise blocks of flats are safe, and feel safe, now and need to be absolutely crystal clear on that point. Nothing in the future. My predecessors have tackled that work can get in the way of the provision of proper information with commitment and integrity, but having reviewed to the House on this matter, as the Chair of the Select such matters since my appointment, it is clear to me Committee and many others have emphasised. No one that we must go further and at pace if we are to secure should think that that can be averted. It cannot be, and the system of building safety that we all want, so I will it will not be. update the House on the immediate action that I intend to take. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Several First, I am consulting on changes to fire safety regulations Members have taken to naming a senior public official for new build blocks of flats. We will seek to commit to of civil service rank from time to time—not only during requiring sprinkler systems as standard in a wider range this urgent question, but in debates. Perhaps you can of new flats. I am minded to reduce the height at which correct me, but I was under the impression that to name sprinklers are required down to 18 metres, but I am a public servant in that way is out of order, wrong and open to hearing evidence for other relevant thresholds should be avoided. Is that the case? What are the rules and will be led by that evidence, wherever it takes us. We regarding naming and trying to shame public officials will also consult on requiring better signs and evacuation in this way? alert systems to support effective firefighting. I am grateful to the National Fire Chiefs Council and the Mr Speaker: Courteous reference is the guiding principle. London Fire Brigade for their valuable and continuing The notion that no public servant can be referred to is contributions. I have also published a summary of not correct. It is an interesting concept on the part of responses to our call for evidence on a full review of the the hon. Gentleman, but there is no track record on that technical requirements in approved document B. There matter. will likely be additional changes in due course. When We come now to the statement by the Secretary of taking such decisions, we will always be led by the State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, evidence and residents’ safety. I will keep the industry in respect of which there is, again, a premium upon and Parliament informed. brevity. Secondly, with respect to the “Building a Safer Future” consultation, I intend to respond by the end of the year and to legislate at the earliest opportunity. I believe that we should establish a new building safety regulator to oversee the new regulatory regime for buildings. However, it is clear that we need to act now, so we are working with the Health and Safety Executive to use its experience to set up the regulator in shadow form prior to new legislation, and I want to see that happen as soon as practicable. We will take decisions on the regulator’s long-term functions and structure during the autumn. Again, I will update the House accordingly. Thirdly,although the answer to the concerns of residents is the establishment through legislation of the new safety case regime, with the individual assessment of buildings envisaged by Dame Judith Hackitt, it is clear that we should not wait until then to act. The Home Secretary and I have worked with the National Fire Chiefs Council and intend to establish a new protection board, which will provide expert and 373 Building Safety 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Building Safety 374 consistent inspections across the country to ensure we autumn. Following the full report, the expert panel will are identifying, managing and properly recording risks. consider whether further testing should be commissioned This will significantly increase the pace of inspection or existing advice supplemented. The panel anticipates activity across high-rise residential and other high-risk that it will publish any such additional advice by the buildings to make sure building owners are acting on end of this year. In the interim, building owners should the very latest safety advice. continue to follow the very clear steps set out in advice I expect all high-rise buildings to have been inspected note 14 to ensure the safety of their buildings and or assured by the time the new building safety regime is residents. in place, or no later than 2021. Residents of these The safety of people in their home must be paramount. buildings should be swiftly informed of the results of I hope the House will welcome the measures I have laid those assessments and inspections, with any changes out today to ensure that no one should feel unsafe in acted upon as soon as possible. their home and to build a safety system that people Improved inspection activity for non-ACM high-rise across this country can trust. buildings will be informed by local authorities’ current I commend this statement to the House. data collection work. Today, to support that work, I am pleased to confirm that we are providing them with £4 million of additional funding. I can also confirm 11.49 am that my Department will provide £10 million a year of John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I thank additional funding to help local authorities improve the Secretary of State for the advance copy of his their inspection capabilities and to support the work of statement. I have to say that I admire his air of calm. the protection board, which we are now launching. This is a Government of chaos—even the Prime Minister’s Should the protection board consider it necessary, I brother has walked out of office this morning—so his will, of course, consider providing additional resources presence is welcome. I recognise his good intent to make during the remainder of this financial year to increase good on the failings of his predecessors over the past the pace of inspection and assurance work. I hope this few years. systematic inspection programme will provide reassurance to residents across the country,many of whom I understand Why, two years and three months after the terrible have legitimate concerns. Grenfell tragedy, are 324 high-rise blocks still cloaked in the same dangerous, Grenfell-style cladding? Why have Finally,on our ongoing work to support the remediation 72 private block owners not even got a plan in place to of dangerous ACM cladding on buildings, where it fix the problem? Will the Secretary of State do what his poses a clear risk, the Government made funding available predecessors did not and bring in Labour’s five-point in May for its removal from eligible buildings in the plan to force the pace of the recladding? It would mean private residential sector, in addition to funds already naming and shaming those private block owners now, available for the social sector, bringing the total to not some time in the future; setting a hard deadline for £600 million. block owners to get the work done; updating the sanctions As of 12 September, eligible private sector building available to councils under the Housing Act 2004; making owners will now be able formally to submit their applications Government funding available for cladding remediation for funding for ACM removal and replacement. They on private blocks where they have to do the work; and have until the end of December to apply. There is no widening now the Government-sponsored testing regime excuse for building owners to delay. My Department to test comprehensively all suspect non-ACM cladding. has been encouraging swift applications, and we now have a direct relationship with a named individual in the One year and four months after the final Hackitt United Kingdom for each relevant building. Where we report was published, why is there no comprehensive receive applications, we will do everything we can to implementation plan? Why is there no legislation? Today, turn them around rapidly, prioritising and considering the Secretary of State confirmed his intention to respond responses on a rolling basis. by the end of the year. Can he do better? Will he guarantee that legislation to implement the much-needed Let me be clear: inaction will have consequences. I legal changes is part of the Queen’s Speech that is will name and shame individuals and businesses if I see promised for next month? inaction during the autumn. If we reach the end of autumn and building owners have not responded, and Ten months after the Government’s contract for the do not have exceptional reasons for it, I will take wider testing was due to be completed, the report has whatever steps and sanctions are necessary.I will support not been completed and published. Will the right local authorities to take robust enforcement action against hon. Gentleman undertake to publish in full and without reluctant building owners, and I have asked the joint delay—not sometime in the autumn—those results in inspection team to provide them with all necessary advice. full? Failure to act, particularly now that the funding is We welcome the consultation on extending the provided by the taxpayer, would be frankly disgraceful, requirement for sprinklers in new build flats. That builds and I know colleagues in this House will share that on the provisions that the Labour Government introduced determination. Where Members have ACM-clad buildings for high-rise blocks. However, will the Secretary of in their constituency, we will provide guidance on how State go a step further, do what we planned and pledged, they can encourage building owners to apply. My and set up a fund so that we can retrofit all high-rise Department stands ready to advise on the contact we social housing blocks so that the people who live in have had already. them can be assured that they will be safe in future? With regard to non-ACM cladding, the research I welcome the Secretary of State’s plans for a new programme began in April 2019 and scheduled testing inspection system, but why on earth does he say that all has now concluded. Findings will be published in the high-risk buildings might not be inspected until 2021? 375 Building Safety 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Building Safety 376

[John Healey] responses to the consultation carefully,and my Department is doing that. As I said, we will bring forward the That is two years in the future; four years after Grenfell. legislation at the very earliest opportunity. The right What is he doing to speed that up? hon. the Gentleman has my assurance that I will be Grenfell was a national tragedy. People look to the working within the Government to ensure that happens Government in such times for a national response. At and to impress upon the Prime Minister and others that every stage, the Government have been too slow to legislation needs to come forward at the earliest opportunity. grasp the scale of the problems. Their actions have been I do not think it should be rushed, which is why I have too little, too late, and I regret to say that there is too worked with the Home Secretary to bring in the interim little in today’s statement to give us confidence that the measure to establish the protection board. The individual Secretary of State and the Government can rectify their assessments of buildings will begin as soon as possible failure to act as they should to make everyone safe after once the board has been established. That will provide the terrible Grenfell tragedy more than two years ago. reassurance to residents. I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concern that time is passing; I hope he sees that I intend to work at considerable pace to get this done. Robert Jenrick: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. He and I have worked well On sprinklers, we are currently consulting on the together on other issues and I hope that we can do so on building regulations guidance so that the regulations this issue, which should be beyond party politics. can come into force for whatever is deemed to be the appropriate threshold. As I said, our preference is 18 metres, We have taken many steps. My predecessors have but we are open to evidence in other respects. On the worked with commitment on the issue. We have given retrofitting of sprinklers in existing high-rise buildings, clear advice to building owners, who must take personal Dame Judith Hackitt and other expert advisers have responsibility. We have introduced a ban on combustible made it clear that that is not always the right option for cladding. We have had the independent review, which a building. It may well be, but other measures could be has now concluded, by Dame Judith Hackitt, and we taken instead that might be more appropriate for an have had the consultation, to which we will respond by individual building. Dame Judith Hackitt made it clear the end of this year. We now have 150 individuals in my that it was wise to proceed on an individual basis, so the Department working on building safety, many with safety regime that we will be introducing in legislation decades of experience. Again, they are working with will ensure that there are individual assessments of great commitment and at pace. buildings. Those assessments may conclude that there is We have put £600 million of public money behind a requirement to retrofit sprinklers, but they might remediation of dangerous ACM cladding in the social recommend alternative arrangements instead. Obviously, sector, of which £200 million is now available in the we will ensure that whatever is proposed in those private sector. We have of course launched a full public assessments happens in a timely fashion. inquiry into the Grenfell tragedy and the first phase is expected to report back shortly. Of course, the timing is Several hon. Members rose— up to the judge. We have issued clarified building regulations guidance, Mr Speaker: Order. Again, I appeal for extreme brevity and we are increasing support for local authorities. on the part of colleagues; if they do not provide it, they Today, I announced £10 million for the protection board will have to be cut off, I am afraid. and £4 million directly for local authorities. We have already removed a range of substandard products from Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I wrote the market. Is there more to do? Of course there is, and to the Secretary of State on Monday about the position I hope that hon. Members of all parties will see from of my constituents in Northpoint in Bromley. I welcome my statement the number of steps that I intend to take his announcement. Will he confirm that the establishment and the pace at which I want my Department to work in of the protection board ought to and must be used so the months to come. that people such as my constituents—who have had to The right hon. Gentleman talked about funding; do this—may avoid the rigmarole of commissioning a we have made the funding available, and I share his building survey to prove eligibility for the fund and then determination to hold private sector building owners to applying for funding from the pre-application fund, the account. As I said in my statement, I will be naming and portal for which was not live at the beginning of the shaming the individuals and the companies that own week? We need to cut through that immediately. the buildings if they do not take action very quickly this autumn. If we come to the end of the fund in December— Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend and I have corresponded the right hon. Gentleman asked for a hard deadline; and spoken about the issue in his constituency. As I said that is a hard deadline—and there are buildings that in my correspondence to him, I encourage the building have not been remediated, or at least applications to the owners in his constituency to apply to the fund. It will fund have not been put in and there are not exceptional be open on 12 September and we will be handling the reasons for that, we will take whatever enforcement applications on a rolling basis. In fact, it will also be steps are required at that point. We will work with local possible to get a refund retrospectively, so they could authorities to make sure that they robustly use their get on with the work immediately and seek the funding powers. There are instances of their doing so, and we at a later date. are working with them already. My hon. Friend asked me previously about buildings The Hackitt review was an important step forward. that may have a mix of ACM cladding and other forms This is a complex policy area and we all want to ensure of cladding. Public money will obviously be spent for that we get this right, so we need to work through the the remediation of the dangerous ACM cladding, but if 377 Building Safety 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Building Safety 378 it is proven that it is impossible to remediate the ACM communicate to all residents in the building and give cladding without taking off the other forms of cladding, them proper messages about staying in their flats or it may well be possible to use public money to fund that evacuating, and so on. as well. I hope my hon. Friend’s constituents will put in The incident in Barking was clearly very concerning. an application as soon as possible and that we can move We have published advice about wooden cladding on forward at pace in his constituency. balconies, so that is in the public domain; I am happy to send the hon. Lady a copy of that advice. As I understand Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I welcome it, the building in Barking, along with another on the the Secretary of State to his place, but I agree that he is same development, were unusual designs with excessive not quite moving fast enough. We owe it to all those amounts of wood on their balconies. It was an extremely who lost their lives and survived at Grenfell to do more, distressing incident, which I do not want to see repeated, and to do more quickly.The Scottish ministerial working but I advise anyone who is concerned to see the advice group is already way ahead of where the UK Government that we have published. are on this and is moving forward with recommendations. I will consider the hon. Lady’s request as a Budget In Scotland, we are looking at 11 metres rather than the representation to the Chancellor. In the recent spending 18 metres that the Secretary of State suggests. Has he review, we secured the funding that we announced spoken to his counterpart in the Scottish Government? today for local authorities and to fund the protection Will he look at the evidence that Scotland took on board, and we believe that that funding is sufficient. We making the threshold for mandatory sprinklers in high think that £10 million a year is enough to carry out rises 11 metres rather than 18 metres? individual urgent inspections of high-risk and high-rise We are looking at regulations around new builds, buildings across the country within the timeframe that I including having two forms of escape stairs and sound have set out. alerts in new builds. Will the Secretary of State look at those ideas? We are also looking at compliance plans Several hon. Members rose— for high-risk buildings and at strengthening enforcement. Mr Speaker: I remind the House that I am looking May I ask—because the Secretary of State has not for single-sentence questions without preamble. mentioned this—what the advice has been regarding ThermoWood and similar cladding on low-rise buildings James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): following the fire in Barking? It is clear that there needs May I support what my right hon. Friend has said in his to be some advice and regulation in that regard. statement about driving forward cultural change and I welcome what the Secretary of State said about ensuring that people are safe in their homes? I also bringing in a regulator, as we already have a Scottish encourage him to follow through on the social housing Housing Regulator in Scotland. Such provision would Green Paper to see that tenants have that voice to allow residents to take up any issues they have with the challenge their landlords and to drive change. regulator and to prevent something such as Grenfell from happening, because there would be a process through Robert Jenrick: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s which complaints could be resolved. Has he met with work. A number of the initiatives that I announced the Scottish Housing Regulator to discuss their work? If today commenced during his tenure and he was the not, will he do so? Will he also speak to the Chancellor driving force behind them. I will, of course, take forward about the potential VAT reduction to incentivise sprinklers the social housing Green Paper. We are considering the and other remediation works in buildings, as that could very large number of representations that we received, make such works easier and cheaper for building owners. and I will update the House in due course. Is the Secretary of State convinced that the money he has allocated will be sufficient, because £10 million does Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I welcome not really sound like enough to me? the Secretary of State to his position. With regard to ACM cladding, will he give a date when he is going to Finally, the Chancellor has talked about this period require—not expect, but require—this cladding to be as being the end of austerity. Fire and rescue services in removed, and what steps and sanctions does he intend England have seen a 38% cut since 2005; will the to take? In terms of the testing of non-ACM cladding, Government restore that money and ensure that fire if that material is found to be as dangerous as ACM services are able to respond adequately to emergencies? cladding, will he give a commitment to provide exactly the same funding for the removal of that cladding so Robert Jenrick: With respect to the threshold for that people in those homes are safe as well? sprinklers, we have made it clear that our preference is 18 metres, on the basis of the expert advice that we have Robert Jenrick: The announcement that I made today received so far, but we are open to reviewing the evidence sets out a timetable. The fund is now open. Every for an alternative threshold, including a lower one. private sector building should apply, and we believe that There are obviously precedents elsewhere for thresholds they will. If, over the course of the autumn, some are of 11 metres. As I understand it, 18 metres has historically procrastinating and not complying, I will name and been the traditional marker above which higher fire shame them. The hard deadline is the closure of the safety systems are put in place—that has been the case fund in December. I will consider all options available with cladding and in other regards—but we will be led to us at that point to ensure compliance. With respect to by the evidence and will pay careful attention to what is non-ACM cladding, the advice that we have had to date happening elsewhere, including in Scotland. is now in the public domain. Building owners should be The consultation does ask questions about better acting upon that. The testing process will conclude this signage in high-rise buildings and alert systems that autumn. If further updates are required, of course we would enable the fire officers attending the scene to will put that in the public domain. 379 Building Safety 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Building Safety 380

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does Robert Jenrick: Local authorities have robust enforcement the Secretary of State agree that building regulations powers available to them, and we are working closely can allow us a triple opportunity to build zero-energy with them to guide and support them. If the hon. Lady bill homes—the homes of the future—quickly and would like to come to me with examples, I would be affordably, reduce poverty and reduce greenhouse gases? very happy to support her.

Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend and I share a passion Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): First, tenants at for doing that. We announced in the spring statement a Edwin Court in my constituency are having to move out new future homes standard that will ensure that no new of their homes while vital fire safety work is carried out. home will be built in this country after 2025 without Will my right hon. Friend ensure that all housing low or zero-carbon heating and the highest levels of associations look after their tenants in the process of energy efficiency. That is good for the environment and such work? Secondly, will his review look closely at good for people on lower incomes. inadequate fire doors? Inside Housing’s review of this issue is very concerning, as have been answers I have Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Can received to parliamentary questions. the Secretary of State say a bit more about his protection board? What kind of people will be on it, how many of Robert Jenrick: I am very happy to work with my them will there be, will they have staff or will they be hon. Friend on that issue. We have already published carrying out inspections themselves, and will they monitor updated advice notes on fire doors. It is an important how local authorities spend this £10 million? issue that we want to take forward. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Robert Jenrick: I am happy to write to the hon. Two years after Grenfell, buildings in Newcastle remain Gentleman with more details of the board, but it will be with this dangerous cladding, so will the Secretary of a partnership between fire and rescue services and other State admit that the privatisation of building safety, in appropriate experts.They in turn will commission probably effect, with building owners able to pick and choose regional teams of experts to ensure the consistent and who inspects them, has failed? Will he review the system competent inspections of buildings across the country. generally and give local authorities more control, oversight and resource, as Newcastle City Council has requested? Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): Fire safety matters, but so does the health and safety of workers, so will the Robert Jenrick: The hon. Lady can see that we are Secretary of State keep a focus on the current review of doing a root-and-branch reform of the building safety building regulations to make sure that that prohibition system, both in the interim and in the long term with on low-level letterboxes is delivered? the building safety Bill that will come forward as soon as possible. I am working very closely with local authorities, Robert Jenrick: Yes, I think we may all welcome that and today of course I have announced £14 million of in the coming months. additional funding that will help to support them to use their existing powers robustly. AndySlaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): There is confusion about the “stay put” policy and tall buildings being Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): It is approved with single staircases. What has happened to almost 12 years since the tragedy in Atherstone on the review of means of escape? Stour, in Warwickshire, which resulted in the deaths of four firefighters. Sprinklers were subsequently introduced Robert Jenrick: I will write to the hon. Gentleman into legislation. Can the Secretary of State not be more with an answer. ambitious and ensure that sprinklers are retrofitted to all tower blocks and also insist that they be introduced into schools, so that we do not lose schools, as we did in Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Will the Scotland the other week? Secretary of State use the campaigning charity the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership as a way of letting Robert Jenrick: As I think I said earlier, we will leaseholders in privately owned blocks know what should always be guided by the safety of residents, but we must be happening and of making sure that their interests are be led by the evidence, and the consultation I am taken into account just as much as those in the private launching today will do exactly that. We will consider sector? the appropriate threshold and whether measures need to be applied to other high-risk buildings of different Robert Jenrick: I am very happy to take my hon. types. Friend up on that. He knows that I share his determination to take forward wider reforms in the leasehold sector, Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I welcome the and I will be introducing measures in that respect in due Secretary of State to his post. Some 11,500 firefighters’ course. jobs have been cut since 2010. What representations has he made to other Departments? Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): What can be done to identify developers such as Mr Jason Alexander Robert Jenrick: As I said in my statement, I have in Greater Manchester who have a track record of worked very closely with the Home Secretary in preparing repeatedly flouting regulations for buildings they own this announcement. The protection board will be a and to make sure they cannot continue to do so and will partnership between the fire and rescue services, the face sanctions? Home Office and my own Department. The funding 381 Building Safety 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 382 that the Chancellor has made available for this will help Girls’ Education to ensure that fire and rescue services that participate are properly funded for that work. 12.12 pm Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab): As we saw at Whaley The Secretary of State for International Development Bridge this summer, it is not just residential buildings (Alok Sharma): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would that can put lives at risk but infrastructure as well. like to update the House on the UK’s work to support While I welcome the review that is taking place on girls’ education around the world—in particular, our Whaley Bridge, will the Secretary of State confirm that work to help provide 12 years of quality education for the rigorous inspection regime will apply to infrastructure all girls by 2030 and to leave no girl behind. buildings as well as residential ones, and that where they Educating girls is the tool that can address a whole are held by separate trusts such as the Canal and River host of the world’s economic and social problems. It is Trust, capital funding will be available where needed? one of the five foundations of DFID’s wider work on gender equality, which tackles the barriers that hold Robert Jenrick: I am very happy to take that up with women and girls back. Educating girls prevents child the hon. Lady, although I think it is more likely to be a marriage and early pregnancy, helps women into the question for the Environment Secretary. I thank her for workforce and boosts household incomes and economic the work that she and I did over the course of the growth. Supporting education for girls and women gives summer and for the hard work she did for her constituents. them a greater voice. That voice helps them to shape their own future and advocate for changes in their own Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is lives and, very importantly, the lives of other girls and the Secretary of State aware that what my firefighters in women. West Yorkshire want is to be able to do the job? They want the training, the resources, the time and the On a recent trip to Ethiopia, I met a group of teenage prioritisation, and then they will do the job. girls learning to code. One of them told me: “Education is a weapon that can change the world”—and she was Robert Jenrick: With respect, that is exactly what we absolutely right. Educating girls is central to achieving have announced today. women’s rights and empowerment and to achieving the sustainable development goals. Nothing could be more Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Notwithstanding important than giving every child the chance to make the consultation, will the Secretary of State apply the the most of their talents, ensuring that every child can same logic about sprinklers to existing tall blocks as he reach their full potential. does to new blocks? We know that many girls become mothers before they finish school. The vital sexual and reproductive health Robert Jenrick: I think I have already answered that. services that they need are simply not available. In the Sahel, for example, child marriage and early pregnancy Several hon. Members rose— are endemic, stopping girls entering and staying in education. Three quarters of girls in Niger are married Mr Speaker: Tim Farron—one sentence. before their 18th birthday; more than one in four are married before the age of 15. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Given This situation is not acceptable. We in the UK are that naming and shaming has been set out by the leading the action globally to address this injustice. Secretary of State, could he be more explicit about what Today, I can update the House on the UK’s continued sanctions he will be using against the individuals and global leadership on girls’ education. The UK is a world organisations that fail to comply with making these leader on girls’ education. I am immensely proud to buildings safe for their residents? spearhead the British Government’s girls’ education campaign. That campaign—Leave No Girl Behind—was Robert Jenrick: The hon. Gentleman asks a pertinent launched by our Prime Minister in 2018 when he was question. In the first instance, we will be working with Foreign Secretary. The campaign leads by example. It local authorities, which have such powers available to gets girls learning, builds international political commitment them. We will be supporting and guiding them to take and boosts global investment so that all girls have robust action, but if we reach the end of the year and access to 12 years of quality education by 2030. The there are still building owners who have failed to girls education campaign is an essential part of this participate—which would be shameful given that taxpayers’ Government’s broader endeavours to promote global money is available to them—I will consider all options Britain’s core values overseas. available to us to ensure their compliance. Through our strong political leadership and the UK’s global diplomatic network, we have achieved many Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the Secretary notable successes since the launch of the campaign in of State’s Department co-ordinate with the Northern 2018. At the Commonwealth Heads of Government Ireland permanent secretary to ensure that we, too, in meeting in 2018, all 53 Commonwealth members agreed Northern Ireland are securing improved safety measures to work to ensure 12 years of quality education for all for residents and for workers? girls by 2030. At the G7 in 2018, over £2.3 billion was raised for girls’ education. At the United Nations General Robert Jenrick: I will. Assembly in 2018, the leaders of the UK, Canada and France came together with key partners from the global south—Jordan, Niger and Kenya—to endorse a joint statement that focused global political attention on 383 Girls’ Education 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Girls’ Education 384

[Alok Sharma] pupils, parents and civil society groups, and one thing was clear when it came to education: the people I met girls’ education. This year we have led and launched the there wanted exactly the same things that my constituents Safe to Learn campaign, which addresses violence that in Liverpool want—decent, publicly funded schooling prevents girls from attending and learning in school. for their children. I am concerned about the growing I hope that this demonstrates that the UK is leading support that DFID is providing to expanding private across a range of programmes to build commitment education in the global south, because we know that and boost investment globally in our mission to ensure fee-paying private schools never reach the most marginalised all girls access 12 years of quality education by 2030. children. We know from our own experience in the UK Only last month, at the G7 leaders summit in Biarritz, that universal public systems of education are the only our Prime Minister announced £90 million of new way to reach all children. The International Development funding to provide education for children caught up in Committee has said that DFID’s support for private crises and conflict. Girls, who are more than twice as education is “controversial”. The last Independent likely to be out of school in conflict areas, stand to Commission for Aid Impact assessment of DFID’s benefit the most from this support. The Prime Minister work to support the most marginalised girls found that also announced £30 million for affirmative finance action DFID is “falling short” of its ambitions to educate the for Women in Africa. This will help to break down poorest and most vulnerable girls. One reason for that barriers to women’s economic empowerment by providing was a lack of influence by DFID on public Government-run up to 10,000 women with essential business training education programmes. and thousands more with better access to business In Kenya, I heard some worrying stories from parents loans. Unleashing the economic potential of women and teachers about their experience with so-called low-fee will boost African economies, trade and investment private schools, and one chain of schools in particular: opportunities, and increase global prosperity. This is in Bridge International Academies. Parents told me how the interests of the UK and African countries and will they had been tricked into believing that their kids provide girls with strong female role models. would benefit from scholarships, leaving them unable to At the UN General Assembly later this month, which pay fees and their kids missing chunks of schooling as a I will attend, girls’ education will be at the heart of the result. I met the head of the Kenya National Union of UK’sactivities and interventions.All UK-funded education Teachers to discuss education in the country, and he programmes have a focus on girls and young women. had a very clear message: he wanted the UK to stop Between 2015 and 2019, the UK supported 5.8 million using aid money to privatise his country’s education girls to gain a decent education. Our Girls Education system. Challenge is the world’s largest fund dedicated to girls’ In August last year, Oxfam published its review of a education. It is now supporting up to 1.5 million DFID-funded education public-private partnership in marginalised girls in 17 countries around the world. Pakistan. It found that schools were failing to reach the I am absolutely clear that girls’ education remains most marginalised, relying on very low wages and poor a key priority for this Government. We must send a employment practices. In February this year, the Send strong signal that we will not give up on half of the My Friend to School coalition released a report calling world’s population. I strongly believe that educating a for DFID to ensure that its aid spending goes towards girl ultimately helps to educate a nation. I commend supporting education that is provided universally and is this statement to the House. available free at the point of use. In April, a report from the National Education Union and Global Justice Now Mr Speaker: I call the shadow Secretary of State, claimed that UK aid is being used to push an ideological who should take approximately three minutes. agenda to expand fee-paying private education around the world. 12.18 pm Labour knows the importance of publicly delivered Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Thank you, public services. That is why we will set up a new unit for Mr Speaker. I thank the Secretary of State for advance public services within DFID that will champion education sight of the statement and welcome him to his new role. as a human right and a public good. Will the Secretary He is the third Secretary of State I have faced in this of State listen to the sector, to the unions and to teacher position. and campaign groups in the UK and the global south, In its “World Development Report 2018”, the World who say that education is a universal right guaranteed Bank declared an international learning crisis. We know by the state and not a market to make profits from? Will that it is too often girls who are most affected by the he shift his Department’s focus on education towards lack of education globally. They are twice as likely as a human rights-based approach, so that all girls get the boys to never start school. Given these figures, we education they are entitled to? welcome the Secretary of State’s focus on education, and girls’ education in particular. Alok Sharma: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his While, like the Government, we recognise that the response. We are at a time when there is an enormous benefits of girls’education reach far beyond the individual amount of rancour in this House and debates are perhaps girl, does the Secretary of State agree that education is not as good-natured as you would like, Mr Speaker, but first and foremost a basic human right? That is why the this is an area on which I think we can all agree across Labour party is committed to a rights-based approach the House. Education matters for every child, whether to education. in our country or the developing world. I hope that the Last month, I visited Kenya and saw for myself the hon. Gentleman will be pleased at the reaffirmation huge educational needs in that country. I visited state yesterday of the 0.7% commitment in the Chancellor’s schools and low-fee private schools, meeting teachers, spending review statement. 385 Girls’ Education 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Girls’ Education 386

I very much share the hon. Gentleman’s view that the The education of women and girls must be made a work we do in developing countries is incredibly important. priority in all educational international development He talked about his visit to Kenya. I was in Nigeria programmes, and such programmes must explicitly address recently to see the work we have done in Kaduna state, complex factors that keep girls out of education. Girls working with the state—the public sector—to ensure are more than twice as likely to be out of school if they that thousands of teachers are retrained appropriately. I live in conflict areas, and young women living in conflict visited a school where the school roll was failing only a are nearly 90% percent more likely to be out of secondary couple of years ago—it was down to 400—but it is school than those in other countries. almost double now, and over half the children there are Education is a long-term challenge and one that is young girls. I had an opportunity to talk to them, and easily disrupted. Humanitarian crises are becoming more they were incredibly enthusiastic and positive, not just protracted, and one major challenge is coming up with about their own future but about their own country. a long-term solution to the children whose education is That is because of the great education they are getting. disrupted by this. Last week, the United Nations High I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman said, Commissioner for Refugees published a report that but I want to respond to his point about where DFID’s found that, of the 7.1 million school-age refugee children funding goes. I want to make it clear that over 95% of around the world, more than half do not go to school. my Department’s education funding goes to the public With one third of the £90 million funding earmarked sector to support improvements in education outcomes. for those living through the world’s forgotten crises, I That is right and proper. We are working across the ask: what proportion will be spent on those girls who developing world with countries and their education have fled conflict but have been left without an education ministries to provide support. Of course, where state due to displacement? provision is weak or non-existent, it is right that we Furthermore, the Government’s programmes to help work with non-state providers, including paid-for schools, women in developing countries overwhelmingly focus to provide education to children who would otherwise on children—those under about 10—and adult women, get none, and we continue to work with a range of and there is a gap that adolescent and teenage girls can education partners to ensure the best results and value fall through, leaving them out of programmes to get for money. them into education and keep them safe from sexual The hon. Gentleman talked about ideology. There is violence. Can the Secretary of State tell me how he plans one education ideology that I suspect we share, which is to address that specific age group? that it is vital that every child gets the right level of education. We are both committed to ensuring 12 years Alok Sharma: I am delighted that, once again, we have of education for every girl across the world. a shared view about the importance of girls’ education. The hon. Gentleman is right that education is a long-term Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): In this challenge. He talks about the UK’s commitment. The difficult week, it is wonderful to hear the Secretary of Prime Minister was absolutely committed to the 12 years State shine a spotlight on this incredibly valuable and of education for girls during his time at the Foreign important part of what the UK does. It is such good Office—in fact, he launched our work on this—and he value for money. Can he commit to exploring whether is totally committed now, so I think the hon. Gentleman the UK could be spending a greater share of our overall will find that this is a key area of focus for us. aid budget in this incredibly valuable area? I also share the hon. Gentleman’s view that we have Alok Sharma: May I first pay tribute to my hon. too many children across the world who are not in Friend, who did so much work in this area during her education. The latest figures suggest that over 260 million time in government? I remember having conversations children, of whom about 130 million are girls, are not in with her about this issue, which she is passionate about. education, and that is not good enough. We spend around £1 billion a year on education, in The hon. Gentleman asked a specific question about official development assistance, and it will fluctuate the £90 million commitment that the Prime Minister over the years. It is important that we also focus on has made for educational emergencies. I can inform him outcomes, but I will take on board what she said about that this includes £85 million for Education Cannot our trying to do even more in this area. Wait, which will support 600,000 children, including girls, in emergencies. I hope he will appreciate that we Several hon. Members rose— are absolutely focused on helping children across the world, with this particular money very much focused on Mr Speaker: Order. Extreme brevity is required. those living in emergency areas.

Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP): I welcome the new Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Across the Secretary of State to his place; he will be the fourth in developing world, the main obstacle to girls being in little over two years. Sustainable development goal 4 education is the lack of running water, sanitation and included a new agenda for global education, vowing to toilet facilities. My right hon. Friend has recently visited “ensure inclusive and equitable quality education and promote Africa, including Nigeria. Ten per cent. of the girls in lifelong learning opportunities for all”. the world are not in education. What more can we do to I fully welcome this commitment of UK aid to helping invest in this area so that we can provide the facilities every girl to get an education. As we know, education for girls to have education? can be the most valuable tool in the fight against global poverty, yet too many girls remain without access. In Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend raises a really important sub-Saharan Africa, 52.2 million girls of primary and point, which is that basic sanitation and the availability secondary school age are out of school. of clean water are vital. I saw one of the projects in 387 Girls’ Education 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Girls’ Education 388

[Alok Sharma] this emphasis on women and education, just as I condemn the Prime Minister’s past remarks when he implied that Ethiopia that has been funded through DFID, and I women went into higher education to find husbands. As had an opportunity to meet some of those who are well as the emphasis on women in STEM, will the benefiting from it. I spoke to a lady who previously Secretary of State say what he is doing to ensure that spent five hours a day getting water for her children, period poverty is not a barrier to continued attendance and now she is able to spend that time working, raising at schools in developing countries, an issue that was money to educate her kids. investigated by the all-party group on Africa ?

Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Alok Sharma: I do not want to introduce a discordant I congratulate the Secretary of State on his appointment note into the statement, as we are in agreement on much to this important role in government. I welcome very of this, but I would just point out that the Prime warmly both his statement and the commitment the Minister,when he was the Foreign Secretary,was absolutely UK made at the G7 to Education Cannot Wait. Clearly, behind launching the 12 years of education for every we need other donors to rise to the challenge in the way girl campaign, so I would say it is slightly churlish for the UK has. What will he be doing over the next few the hon. Lady to raise the points she has. However, on weeks to ensure that the full replenishment of Education the wider point about family planning, I agree that Cannot Wait is achieved, so that children living as work needs to be done. I saw some of the work that we refugees get the education that they deserve? are doing during my visit to Nigeria, and we will continue to work on that. If she has particular ideas, I Alok Sharma: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his would welcome her coming to have a discussion with me. question, but also for the very fine work he does in leading his International Development Committee. We Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) have always had a very good relationship and I very (Con): I refer Members to my entry in the Register of much hope that that will continue. Members’ Financial Interests in that I recently went on a visit to New York. In New York, I met Yasmine I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we need to be Sherif, the director of Education Cannot Wait, a global doing even more in promoting not just the UK but fund established by the UK in 2016, which aims to others to corral in finance into this area. I talked in the ensure that children in conflict zones—some of the statement about the amount of money that was corralled most vulnerable children in the world—receive an education. in last year at UNGA. As I have said, girls’ education What is the Secretary of State doing to support that will be a key focus of the work we will do at this year’s vital organisation? General Assembly. Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend raises an important Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) point. She talks about Yasmine, whom she met, and (Con): G. K. Chesterton said: who I suspect, like her, is a role model and a champion “Education is simply the soul of society as it passes from one for young girls—she in her constituency and Yasmine in generation to the next.” other areas. On support, as I have pointed out, a large The work we do in this country will both be exported element of the £90 million—£85 million—is going to and inspire others worldwide. So will the Secretary of Education Cannot Wait. I agree with her that this is an State look at girls studying STEM subjects—science, incredibly important programme to support. technology, engineering and maths—and particularly going into engineering in this country? The hon. Member Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): Female genital for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) and I mutilation, child sexual exploitation, child marriage worked on this when I was in government. It will inspire and child trafficking all cause girls to drop out of others. It will nourish our society, as we nurture the school. DFID and the British Council have been excellent taste and talents of young women with a practical, at changing culture abroad. Can the Secretary of State vocational and technical bent. say how we can learn those lessons and bring those lessons to the UK so that we can change our culture here? Mr Speaker: Have it framed and put it up in the loo. Alok Sharma: First, I agree with the hon. Lady that Alok Sharma: My right hon. Friend raises a very education is absolutely vital because we know that, for important point. Of course, studying STEM subjects is every girl who goes to secondary school, infant mortality really important in the UK, but also abroad. He showered is cut in half. About 12 million children would escape me with a quote. May I give him one back from a young stunting due to malnutrition if every girl went to secondary lady I met who is learning to code as a result of funding school, and we would see significantly higher GDP provided by DFID? This was when I met a group of growth across the world. Of course, we share any learnings young people in Nigeria. She said: that we have across government, and we will continue to “Education is a weapon that can change the world.” do so. That is what young women in developing countries Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose— believe, and we are providing such support to help them to build better futures. Mr Speaker: Ah, yes, the good doctor—Dr Julian Lewis.

Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Dr Lewis: In how many third-world countries are As chair of the all-party group on Africa and of the girls like Malala at risk of attack or assassination, and all-party group on diversity and inclusion in science, do we have any programmes to assist the Governments technology, engineering and maths, I wholly welcome in those countries to protect them? 389 Girls’ Education 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Girls’ Education 390

Alok Sharma: I think the simple answer is too many, package that supports education, that could damage but the wider work that DFID does on humanitarian education for girls? It is about getting the whole picture support and security clearly aids the objective of making right. sure that children—girls—are able to go to school safely and live in an environment where they feel that they will Alok Sharma: The hon. Gentleman raises a vital not be threatened if they go to school. point, and we need a holistic approach to our work. I believe that is very much what DFID does as a Department. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State and this G7 initiative. welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments: no girl or Does he accept that this is not just about Governments? young woman should be denied access to education, Why do we not involve more legislators around the and I am proud that we are funding schemes at home world, working together and using the Inter-Parliamentary and abroad. Will he confirm that he is prioritising girls Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and young women in conflict zones, as well as those in to share good practice and ideas? I chair the World overseas territories and our Commonwealth partners Health Organisation global legislators group to cut who have suffered from natural disasters? road deaths, which is a very good model. Can some of us, on an all-party basis, come to talk to him? This is a Alok Sharma: Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for the great campaign and we should be helping legislators work he does locally in championing education in his around the world to improve conditions for girls. constituency. As I set out, the vast majority of the £90 million that the Prime Minister announced at the G7 is Alok Sharma: As the hon. Gentleman and other for conflict zones and to help those in Syria and areas colleagues in the House will know, in all my previous such as Cox’s Bazar. We will continue to focus on that. roles, I have, I hope, been very open to having discussions and, indeed, learning from colleagues who may have Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): A third of much more detailed knowledge built up over many girls in Yemen are reported to be married before their years, so I would welcome an opportunity to sit down 18th birthday and 9% are married before they are 15. with him and other colleagues. What is the Minister doing to ensure that those girls in Yemen in a conflict zone are getting an education and Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Forty what will he do to end conflict? years ago, when I was a trustee of Christian Aid, we knew that educating a girl could break cycles of poverty Alok Sharma: As the hon. Lady will know, we do a in one generation and could also lead to later marriage, wider piece of work across government to end conflict, fewer children, more prosperity and better health. Can working with our partners internationally. For example, the Secretary of State say now, or in a later statement, around £3 billion has been put into a UK programme how the increase in maths provision for these girls on Syria. Clearly, however, we must keep focusing on around the world has been improving, thanks to our these areas. It is important that, if children are caught efforts? up in these areas, they continue to receive basic education and we are focused on that. Alok Sharma: May I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab): I welcome the work over many years in this area? He has highlighted Secretary of State to his position. Will he confirm that one of the organisations he has been involved in. The good practices such as the “Send My Friend to School” support we have provided over the last four years has initiative are important in exploiting the messaging on meant that 5.8 million more girls are getting a decent this, as is the mental health of girls involved in education? education and it is vital that we continue this work. What will the Government do to continue to support the mental health of young women in their education? Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): I welcome this statement. When I go on “Send My Friend to School” Alok Sharma: Mental health is of course an important visits in Chester, girls’ education is always the No. 1 issue, which has risen up the agenda over a number of issue raised with me by British schoolchildren. years. The Government are doing their part through the However, will the Secretary of State confirm that, if we Departments of Health and Social Care and of Education, do not get right nutrition and healthcare as part as the and where DFID is able to offer support, it will do so. 391 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 392

Business of the House continuous parliamentary Session since the Acts of Union 1800. Hardly any business was legislated for 12.42 pm while the Government were going through a leadership The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob election. The Government chose to have a long Session Rees-Mogg): With permission, I should like to make a and no legislation was progressed, despite my asking for statement about the business for next week. I shall begin that, as well as for Opposition day debates, which I have by apologising to the shadow Leader of the House and not been given. We should have realised that something the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete was going to happen when someone asked when the Wishart) that this statement is later than it would normally Trade Bill would come back and the Leader of the have been, which is to ensure that the information House responded, “Why would we want to do that?” before the House is as full as possible. I understand that That should have given us a clue. A number of Bills—the that has caused some travel arrangement difficulties, Immigration Bill, the Agriculture Bill, the Fisheries Bill which is a matter of regret. and the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) The business for next week is as follows: Bill—are stuck. We know that they fall when Parliament is prorogued, but not statutory instruments—they are MONDAY 9 SEPTEMBER—If necessary, consideration of still live. Will the Leader of the House say what the Lords amendments, followed by debate to approve a Government plan to do with those Bills? motion relating to section 7 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 (historical institutional I asked the previous leader of the House, the right abuse), followed by debate to approve a motion relating hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), whether to section 6 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation we could sit during the conference recess. We on this side etc) Act 2019 (victims’ payment), followed by debate to of the House were ready to do that. There is nothing approve a motion relating to section 5 of the Northern conventionalabouttheGovernment’splansforProrogation. Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 (human Most Prorogations last a few days and take place just trafficking), followed by debate to approve a motion before the Queen’s Speech, but this one is five weeks, relating to section 4 of the Northern Ireland (Executive which will be the longest in more than 40 years. Formation etc) Act 2019 (gambling), followed by general Will the Leader of the House clarify what he said debate on a motion relating to section 3(2) of the during the debate yesterday? When asked, he did not Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, say whether he knew on 16 August that the House was followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords going to be prorogued. In fact, he said he was at Lord’s. amendments, followed by motion relating to an early I will ask him again: on 16 August, when he was at parliamentary general election. Lord’s, did he know whether the House was going to be The House will not adjourn until Royal Assent has prorogued? Had he seen that email? Two weeks later, he been received to all Acts. A message may be received was on a plane to Aberdeen airport. When was he told from the Lords Commissioners. that he was going to Balmoral and when did he know what was in the proclamation? I will return to the House on Monday with further We do not trust this Government—they take their information if necessary. lead from the Prime Minister, who says one thing and 12.44 pm does something else. When he wanted to be Prime Minister, he wrote in a letter to all his colleagues that he was Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank the Leader “not attracted to arcane procedures such as the prorogation of of the House. I was going to say that it is the usual Parliament”. custom and convention to thank him, but I appreciate He said he was a one nation Conservative, yet he has that he has apologised—at least I abide by custom and prorogued Parliament and withdrawn the Whip—possibly convention. I also thank him for being vertical when he sacked, possibly expelled—from some of the most gave his statement. honourable right hon. and hon. Members, who have The Opposition will co-operate with the Government given great service to their party and country. Now we on the Northern Ireland legislation to ensure that it face the fact that the right hon. Member for Orpington goes through, and we are obviously keen for Lords (Joseph Johnson) has resigned and no longer wants to amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.6) stand—the Prime Minister’s own brother cannot take it Bill, if there are any, to come back to the House to be anymore. That is why we do not trust the Government debated. Will the Leader of the House say exactly what and the Prime Minister. He secretly agreed to suspend the motion relating to an early parliamentary election Parliament two weeks before denying it would happen. will be and whether it will be similar to that under the He is treating Parliament, democracy and the people Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011? When is he likely to with contempt. table it? Twenty-two law professors have written an open letter As I said I would do every week, I raise the case of to say that the Prorogation is clearly designed to evade Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Will the Leader of the House scrutiny, including of legislation, and to prevent MPs update the House on her case, given that things have from asking key questions on EU negotiations and taken a different turn, and on the cases of the other UK no-deal planning. So what were the reasons for the nationals who are in prison? Kamal Foroughi was detained Prorogation at that time, without recourse to coming to in May 2011, Anousheh Ashouri was detained in August the Chamber and explaining it? 2017, and British Council employee Aras Amiri was An important Bill to stop a no-deal exit was passed detained in March 2018 and has now been given a yesterday and is making its way through the Lords. 10-year sentence for visiting her grandmother. Here are the reasons why it is important. The director of I asked the previous Leader of the House about the the CBI has said: Queen’s Speech and I know that that has been thrown “No deal is a tripwire into economic chaos that could harm back at me a number of times. We have had the longest our country…for years to come.” 393 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 394

Is that scaremongering? The General Secretary of the Office,in all these consular cases—the hon. Lady mentioned Trades Union Congress said that no deal would be a a number of them—is as vigorous as it can be. In my “disaster for working families”. Is that scaremongering? view, the statement made by a former Prime Minister, The President of the National Farmers’ Union said that Lord Palmerston in the Don Pacifico affair, is the right “you will have many farmers going out of business” approach for Governments to take in defending the interests of British citizens abroad. Weshould be incredibly and the Food and Drink Federation has warned that it robust about it. I believe the Foreign Office is doing as would much as it possibly can, but sadly we cannot tell other “inflict serious—and in some cases mortal—damage on UK food countries what to do. and drink.” We then come on to the Queen’s Speech and what will Is that scaremongering? happen to the Bills that are stuck. The Bills that are The British Medical Association said in its report stuck will become unstuck because they will fall on that the dangers of no deal could lead to the prorogation. That is the sort of de-supergluing process disintegration of the NHS. The fashion industry, worth that we are able to use. I am glad to tell the House that £32 billion, says no deal should be avoided. The all the Bills that are needed for leaving the European Incorporated Society of Musicians said a no-deal Union on 31 October are in place. Brexit will incur major disruption to the music industry We then come to the diary questions. What was worth £4.5 billion. Are they scaremongering? I doing? [Interruption.] On the ability to leave on Guy Verhofstadt, Brexit co-ordinator for the EU, 31 October, all the legislation that is needed is in place. said that the only people who will prosper are the We have 580 statutory instruments to make sure it will wealthy bankers and hedge fund managers who have all happen smoothly. That is all done. It is ready. It is bet on chaos. prepared. Her Majesty’s Government have been a model I think the Leader of the House also owes an apology of efficiency and efficacy in preparing this. My right to Dr David Nicoll, who was part of Operation hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Yellowhammer. When will the Leader of the House is perhaps one of the most impressive administrative publish Operation Yellowhammer, or does he think the Ministers this country has ever seen. Government are scaremongering? I was asked questions about my knowledge of the Mr Speaker, they are like the wolves of Whitehall. next Queen’s Speech. The hon. Lady is aware that one They are marauding over our customs and our conventions. of the main duties of the Leader of the House is to It is absolutely outrageous, the way they are destroying prepare for the next Queen’s Speech. That is what one them. The Prime Minister only governs by custom and does. That is what one is briefed on from the very convention. beginning. Bids for items in the next Queen’s Speech come to the Leader of the House, so that has been part I think the Leader of the House also owes an apology of my briefing from the point at which I was appointed to Mr Speaker. I think he was heard on air to say that and that is the reason why this Session is coming to an Mr Speaker was wrong, but I want to remind him of his end. It has gone on for far too long, as the hon. Lady bedtime reading, “Erskine May”, and of the dedication rightly pointed out—as indeed did the hon. Member for compiled by officials, both past and present. It says this: Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who seems to be fidgeting at “To the…Speaker of the House of Commons and to the Lord the moment in an uncharacteristically fidgety way. Speaker, Speakers…of the Commonwealth Parliaments on whom fall the great responsibilities of guardianship of the parliamentary Mr Speaker: How does one fidget in an un-fidgety system.” way? We saw that this week and we thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Rees-Mogg: Mr Speaker, your knowledge of being able to fidget is so extensive that I am sure you will be Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me deal able to tell the House or make it a chapter in your with the last point first. I would not have dreamed of memoirs on un-fidgety fidgeting. saying that you were wrong. I made the point, the That is the straightforward reason for the Prorogation. classic point, that you have not eyes to see with nor lips The Prorogation is taking place to have a new Queen’s to speak except as directed by this House. I believe, Speech to set out the really exciting one nation policies Mr Speaker, that that is what you do, properly. Youhave that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wishes to consistently taken the view that the House should be set out. Mr Speaker, I know and we all able to debate what it wishes to debate, although I will [Interruption.] know, because we have heard you say it many times, confess that sometimes if I were in your position I that however much chuntering there is from the other might come to a different decision. That is not in any side you will make time for me to answer all their sense disrespectful to Mr Speaker. questions, which I am looking forward to with eager Let me come to this panoply of questions that we anticipation. I will be better able to answer them if they have had. First, I thank the hon. Member for Walsall wait their turn, rather than making noises imitating a South (Valerie Vaz) for supporting us on Northern farmyard that I cannot translate because I am not Ireland legislation and looking forward to the Lords Dr Doolittle. If only I were Dr Doolittle, life might be amendments. The early parliamentary motion will be easier. So that is the routine part of my responsibility put down tonight, as it needs to be, before the close of and that is why Parliament will be prorogued. business. On the conference recess, on the last occasion I On the very important issue that hon. Lady raises on appeared at the Dispatch Box to answer these questions every occasion, relating to Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, I raised the issue of the conference recess. Sitting opposite the Foreign Office is doing what it can. It is a very me was none other than that really distinguished figure, difficult situation. It is so important that the Foreign the Opposition Chief Whip. [Interruption.] It was not 395 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 396

[Mr Rees-Mogg] According to the statement, there will be another attempt at a general election on Monday—perhaps the the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) who is Leader of the House can just confirm that. It looks sitting on the Opposition Front Bench now, but the almost certain that straight after that, the Government’s Opposition Chief Whip. When I said that we would intention is to suspend democracy—contemptuously—for have the conference recess, the Opposition Chief Whip five weeks, much against the desires and wishes of this nodded. As we all know, a nod from the Opposition House and the people we are elected here to serve. Chief Whip is like the nod of Zeus: what it nods at is But I congratulate the Leader of the House on an done and is viewed as authoritative, so let us have no incredible week—not on becoming an internet sensation questions about that. with his “Victorian dad lying down” stuff, but on his The hon. Lady came on to scaremongering. She shrewd, stellar and steady management of the House seems to wish to compete to become the scaremonger- business. He has managed to lose every single vote for in-chief. The preparations have been made. They are in this Prime Minister. No Prime Minister has ever got off place and they have been done with remarkable efficiency. to such a terrible start. He has managed to lose his But yes, a lot of remainers wish to make our skins Government majority by deselecting decent and honourable crawl. I am afraid it seems to me that Dr David Nicholl members of his party who have served their country is as irresponsible as Dr Wakefield. [Interruption.] I and party with such distinction. He has lost control of will repeat: as irresponsible as Dr Wakefield, in threatening the business of the House, and last night his unelected that people will die because we leave the European lords in the other place put up the white flag to what Union. What level of irresponsibility was that? they call the surrender Bill. In the last few hours, we In conclusion, I say to the hon. Lady and the House have had the resignation of the right hon. Member for that this Government have offered them the opportunity, Orpington (Joseph Johnson) in his desire to spend less if they do not like what we are doing, to seek an election time with his family. and put themselves to the voters, but they dare not do There is only one piece of business that the Leader of that. They are frightened of the voters and all they wish the House craves: to secure his general election while to do is obstruct democracy. still being able to get the no deal that the Government crave. To his great frustration and that of the Brexit cult Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Will my that occupy the Government Benches, they have been right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the future unable to get away with it. His general election is staging of party conferences? It seems to me that these coming, but everybody has to be certain that their no conferences have changed out of all recognition and in deal is dead and buried. future could easily be held over a long weekend. The funniest thing about the general election motion last night was the sight of Scottish Conservatives trooping Mr Speaker: What a very sound question. I am even through the Lobby in favour of an immediate general more delighted than usual to have called the hon. election on the day that an opinion poll showed that Gentleman so early. These are meetings of voluntary they would be decimated in Scotland. If we want to see organisations which could perfectly well take place over a demonstration of slavish loyalty to the no-deal Brexit a weekend. The idea that we should be away from our cult cause, we need look no further than these hon. main place of work for this sort of indulgence will Gentlemen. This is not just turkeys voting for Christmas; strike very large numbers of people across the country it is turkeys lathering themselves in cranberry sauce and as bizarre. shoving the stuffing up their own posteriors. I have a feeling, though, that this will probably be the Mr Rees-Mogg: Mr Speaker, I wondered if you were last opportunity to see the right hon. Gentleman in his going to suggest a job share. Perhaps I should sit in as place. He wanted a legacy—how about: the least successful Speaker on occasion and you should answer questions Leader of the House that we have ever had? as Leader of the House. I am sorry to say that I have a slightly different answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Sir David Amess). Party conferences Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful as always to the hon. are an important part of the political process. I am Gentleman for his characteristic charm. What we have really glad to say that this year’s Conservative party seen today is, I think in history, unprecedented, unknown conference is going to be primarily an occasion for and unseen. We have seen a frightened Scotsman. They members. We are going to get back to putting members are people who are known for their courage, their front and central, because they are the people who forthrightness and their sturdiness, and they are scared select us and for whom we work, and who campaign for of going in front of their voters. They have run away us. Party conferences are important and it is a reasonable from an election. They are—what is it?—“tim’rous beasties”, time to have. This House has not been that busy, it has I think they must be called, who dare not face their voters. to be said, earlier in the Session. Therefore, having a I just wonder whether that is because of the narrow party conference is perfectly reasonable. majority that the hon. Gentleman has. He parades it as concern for Conservative Members, and he is worried Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I that they may be in danger, but surely if that is what he thank the Leader of the House, esquire, for announcing really thinks, he should be embracing the opportunity whatever this is supposed to be for next week and say to for an election and pushing forward for it. him that if he is starting to feel a bit tired, he should just The hon. Gentleman mentioned, as did the hon. feel free to have a little lie down. But perhaps if he is Member for Walsall South, my right hon. Friend the going to do that, he should mention it to his hon. Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson), who has decided Friends the Members for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and to leave Her Majesty’s Government. This is something for Horsham (Jeremy Quin) next to him. that we know about across the country: families disagree 397 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 398 on Brexit. My enormously distinguished, wise and good the 50th anniversary of the Open University; and parental sister,Annunziata, has gone and joined the Brexit party— mental illness with its impact on children’s outcomes. It and not only joined it, but got elected to the European is a list of things that are important and still need to be Parliament. We all have, within our families, these aired. By the way, if Prorogation does happen, there is disagreements over an issue that is of fundamental also an application in for a debate about Baby Loss importance to us—[Interruption.] Awareness Week, which happens from 9 to 15 October every year. Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Rees-Mogg: I take this opportunity to thank the Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is of hon. Gentleman, on behalf of the whole House, for the fundamental importance to us all, and that is why it is wonderful work he does on the Backbench Business right to put this back to the British people in a general Committee and in ensuring that the House gets to election, so that they can decide and the hon. Member debate the issues at the forefront of its mind and that for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) can Parliament functions effectively. I take very seriously restore the honour of the people of Scotland by showing what he said about the debates that may come up after he is not afraid. an election or a Queen’s Speech and that require attention before the Backbench Business Committee has been Mr Speaker: These are richly enjoyable exchanges. reformed. That would ordinarily be the case in the presence of the Leader of the House in any circumstance, but I believe As to my recumbent position, I assure the hon. that it is more so because, unless I am much mistaken, Gentleman that my office is drawing up a position the right hon. Gentleman is not the only Rees-Mogg paper for me and is coming up with a recline to take. present and observing our proceedings today. It is a Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): We have great pleasure and privilege to welcome little Moggs in indeed had a panoply of questions, apart from the particular, of whom there are several, and other members obvious one: when the motion on the early general of the Rees-Mogg dynasty. election is considered at the end of Monday, will the Bill Notwithstanding that joy, one of the responsibilities that the House of Commons passed yesterday on ruling of the Speaker is to safeguard the rights of Members in out no deal have received Royal Assent? The reason I respect of business to follow. I make that point simply ask is that I distinctly heard the Leader of the Opposition to underline the imperative of brevity from Back and say yesterday that once the Bill became law, he would Front Benchers alike in observing that, exceptionally vote for an early general election. Does my right hon. today, it may not be possible for everybody to be called Friend agree that it would be quite extraordinary, after on the business statement. We will do our best, and the this long Session of Parliament, which is clearly deadlocked, quest for brevity can be led—I think with distinction—by if every Member of Parliament—or at least two thirds—did Dr Julian Lewis. not vote for an immediate general election to put this to the people? Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): May we have a statement or debate on the circumstances of the Mr Rees-Mogg: It is indeed an addled Parliament seizure of a British-flagged tanker by Iran in the Gulf? that is not able to get things done, and the conclusion If there is not enough time for that, will the Leader of that my right hon. Friend draws is correct. Royal Assent the House have a word with the Secretary of State for will be given speedily once the Bill has completed its Defence, because the Defence Committee on Monday passage through the House of Lords and come back to has a session planned, but the former Secretary of us, if necessary, with any amendments. I obviously State—my right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth cannot predict what their lordships will do, but if it North (Penny Mordaunt)—has so far not yet received completes those stages, it will receive Royal Assent, and the information that she requires from the Ministry of speedily. Defence to enable her to give testimony to us? Mr Speaker: Single-sentence inquiries. Jessica Morden. Mr Rees-Mogg: That is a matter of the utmost importance and I shall certainly ask my office to contact Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): With the the Ministry of Defence. It is only right that Select Government’s disgraceful proroguing of Parliament, Committees should get the information that they require. not only will hon. Members be unable to scrutinise Ministers on Brexit, but I will be robbed of the opportunity Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I thank the Leader of to press Ministers following Tata’s announcement that the House for the statement and for his apology. When I it proposes to close all steelworks in Newport, so what was considering the delay in the normal timing of the will the Leader of the House do to facilitate a debate so business statement this morning, I was wondering whether that we can all fight to save our steel industry? he was carrying on his normal practice of having a lie-in. Mr Rees-Mogg: There simply would not have been The Leader of the House will be aware that if Prorogation time for such a debate anyway, because we were about happens, the Backbench Business Committee ceases to to go into the conference recess. We are losing four or exist and has to be re-elected. I will therefore be writing five days of parliamentary time. There will then be a to him with a list of as yet unheard debates, should any fresh new Session full of interest and excitement, with time become available after Prorogation or possibly opportunities for debates on a range of issues. after a general election. They include debates on women’s mental health, which is vital; the role and sufficiency of Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): MPs youth work, which we have heard so much about recently; across Staffordshire are very concerned about news that diabetes services with targeted prevention strategies; school transport provision will not now be available to 399 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 400

[Karen Bradley] would be a great surprise to all of us if the Bill were not revived very quickly, because her concern is shared those who have to pay for their school transport, due to across the House. a ruling about disability regulations. I will not go into the technical details now, and I appreciate that time is Mr Speaker: A single sentence. Henry Smith. short, but would the Leader of the House find time for a debate on this important matter? Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): May we have a statement from the Health Secretary on when NHS England’s new Mr Rees-Mogg: That is an important issue, and I genomic medicine service will be fully operational? have a nasty feeling that it is the result of some tiresome EU regulation, so after 31 October we may be free to Mr Rees-Mogg: I will certainly pass on that question deal with it ourselves. to the Secretary of State.

Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): City Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): All airport consultation plans have proposed an additional summer, the hunger in communities such as mine across 110 flights a day, many of which would fly over my the country was tangible. Voluntary sector organisations constituency. Given that we already face noise and air are stepping in to feed our children. Why are the pollution from the aircraft, and given that we are in a Government not doing more? May we have a debate on climate change emergency, may we have an urgent debate feeding our children in the holidays? in Government time on airport expansions? Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Mr Rees-Mogg: City airport is a fantastic airport— for raising that point. The Government carried out a convenient to use and very well run—but I understand pilot scheme that fed 50,000 children over the summer. the concerns about the increasing number of flights The scheme is being evaluated to consider whether it from airports. The hon. Lady knows that there will be should be rolled out more widely. many opportunities to secure debates—Adjournment debates and Backbench Business debates—when Parliament Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): returns in October. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury previously made a statement from the Treasury Bench that a debt Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): Does is owed to Equitable Life victims. When can we debate my right hon. Friend agree that we need an urgent the matter further and ensure that the debt is repaid? debate on planning? We have recently seen delays in various planning authorities—particularly the Planning Mr Rees-Mogg: The Equitable Life issue really ought Inspectorate—reviewing planning applications, which to have been finished by now, but of course it concerns has led to the five-year lag in planning. That means that many Members and many of our constituents. I was a groups of applications that are not part of the planning member of the all-party parliamentary group for justice process from the borough council are being put in, for Equitable Life policyholders, so I share my hon. which particularly affects areas such as the monastery Friend’s concerns. and the nunnery in West Malling. Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): What is Mr Rees-Mogg: I am always concerned about anything happening in Kashmir is an outrage. The UK Government that might affect a monastery. If we have a Queen’s must do everything they can to bring about lasting Speech, obviously we will have the normal days of peace and stability and to restore human rights to the debate that follow, during which I am sure it will be region. May we have an urgent debate in Government possible to raise the important issue of planning. time on the crisis in Kashmir?

Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): Jess, Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I my constituent, was heavily pregnant when her husband understand that the matter was covered very fully in was stealing from her bank account. She went to her Foreign Office questions, and the Foreign Office is bank but was told that, because she had given him her taking it with the utmost seriousness. An opportunity PIN, that was acceptable, and the police had no legislation to debate it will of course follow the Queen’s Speech. to support her. Kirsty Ferguson was married and had homes, but when she and her husband divorced, he James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): refused to sell them, against court orders. She was Will my right hon. Friend ask a Transport Minister to pushed into penury and emotional distress. What can make a statement on the future of the Southeastern we do after Prorogation, now that the Domestic Abuse train contract? Under the franchise arrangements, the Bill will fall, to support these women, not only in Batley competition has been cancelled. My constituents are and Spen but across the country? keen to see the benefits of the new trains that the new contract would deliver. Mr Rees-Mogg: The issues that the hon. Lady raises are of fundamental importance. We will all have had Mr Rees-Mogg: I will pass on what my right hon. similar cases brought to us in our constituencies. The Friend has said to the relevant Secretary of State. Prime Minister is fully behind the Domestic Abuse Bill. Problems with trains always beset the House, and I fear I cannot tell the hon. Lady what precisely will be in the that if we debated them all we would never have time for Queen’s Speech, but I think that I can give a steer that it anything else. 401 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 402

Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Later this month, the was alarmed to hear reports that the Leader of the world’s third largest sporting event will take place in House has previously suggested that all council workers Japan: the rugby world cup. It would not be taking should wear bowler hats, that Somerset should have its place without the exploits of a certain William Webb own time zone, that he has apparently met a group that Ellis in my constituency back in 1823. The town will be favours the voluntary repatriation of black immigrants celebrating, so may we take the opportunity to have a and that he has disputed climate change. Does he still debate on the economic benefits of sporting events? believe these things, or has he finally decided to live on planet Earth? Mr Rees-Mogg: My general view of the world is that everything good that has ever happened started in Somerset, Mr Rees-Mogg: The first half of that question referred although I must confess that rugby did start in my hon. to jokes, and the second half was wrong. Friend’s constituency, which I cannot claim to be part of Somerset—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) says from a sedentary position Hospital Radio Medway has raised a real concern about that she is sure that I will try, but I think that would be hospital radio stations being able to get appropriate too great a stretch, geographically. It is a fantastic licensing from Ofcom, which is preventing patients from sporting event, and I know that many people will enjoy accessing radio in hospital. That cannot be right. May watching it, and we should absolutely encourage people we have an urgent statement or debate on that? to participate. I think, Mr Speaker, that your predilection is for tennis, and mine is for cricket, so there are many sports that people will be interested in. Mr Rees-Mogg: Hospital radio is very important for cheering people up when they are in hospital, and actually it is a very good training ground for people Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): starting a career in radio. I think that it is a more The post office network is in crisis. A Government suitable topic for an Adjournment debate or a Westminster contract allowing asylum seekers to access cash at post Hall debate, rather than taking time in the Chamber. offices is due to expire in November. May we have a debate in Government time on the number of Government contracts that could be used to increase revenue for Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): The Leader of the postmasters? House has been extremely coy about when Prorogation will actually happen. He has not announced that it will be Tuesday or Thursday. If the general election motion Mr Rees-Mogg: A postmaster came to see me in my falls again, will Prorogation we delayed so that he can constituency surgery recently to discuss that issue. I have a third go? know that it concerns many Members because of the wonderful work that is done by post offices as part of Mr Rees-Mogg: The Privy Council determined that a their communities. However, the hon. Lady knows how Commission should be established under the Lord High to ask for debates and knows about the many mechanisms Chancellor, and that under the Great Seal, Parliament that are available. could be prorogued on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Parliament will be prorogued according Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): My right hon. to a decision made by that Commission. That Commission Friend has a great deal of personal experience of paternity, has not yet made its decision. as we see in the Gallery today. Does he agree that we must have an urgent debate on the return of maternity Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): On Indian services to the Alex hospital in Redditch, as demanded independence day, families were attacked outside the by my constituents? Indian high commission by thugs, and on Tuesday more thugs stoned and pelted the high commission. May we Mr Rees-Mogg: I do indeed attach great importance have a statement from the Home Secretary or another to paternity and, indeed, to maternity services. I think Minister on what actions can be taken to protect those that this would be an entirely suitable subject for an diplomatic areas of our society for our allies and friends? Adjournment debate, Mr Speaker, although, of course, at your discretion. Mr Rees-Mogg: I was unaware of that, but it is deeply shocking that the representative office of so close an Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): In ally should be attacked in the United Kingdom. We January 2019, the High Court ruled that it was illegal should take every measure, as part of our diplomatic for the Department for Work and Pensions to deduct obligations, to protect the offices of all embassies in this universal credit payments when people had received country, but particularly those of friends. It is a matter two payments within the assessment period. When will that I am sure the Foreign Secretary will take most the Government make changes to comply with the law? seriously. Mr Rees-Mogg: Her Majesty’s Government always David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Is next Monday’sfixed-term comply with the rule of law. It is a fundamental principle Parliaments motion under the Fixed-term Parliaments of our constitution. Act 2011 or another mechanism? FionaBruce(Congleton)(Con):TheCharityCommission Mr Rees-Mogg: As I said earlier, the motion will be has asked abortion provider Marie Stopes, a charity put down later today. funded largely by public money, why it paid its head 403 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 404

[Fiona Bruce] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The Leader of the House has a big family, as I have. There is £434,000 last year. May we have a debate on the high a woman in Tehran who cannot see her husband and levels of executive pay in the charitable sector, which its cannot see her little daughter. While the House is not regulator has described as an issue of public interest? sitting, will the Leader of the House lead an all-party delegation to Iran—I would be with him—to see whether Mr Rees-Mogg: It is indeed a matter of public interest. we can get that woman released? It is quite extraordinary that a charity should be paying someone so much more than the Prime Minister earns, Mr Speaker: I would happily join the Leader of the or, even more shockingly, than Mr Speaker is paid. He House on that delegation. stays in his seat for hour after hour in a very diligent way, and I think that if he were paid an hourly rate, he Mr Rees-Mogg: This is a matter for the Foreign would find that he received less than if he worked at Secretary.I cannot constitutionally interfere in the Foreign McDonald’s. It is very impressive. [Interruption.] The Secretary’s business. However, I completely share the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) will have to concern. If you were to lead a delegation Mr Speaker, I catch your eye in due course, Mr Speaker, before we run think that that would be very powerful, but I do hope out of time. you will make sure that you get back. I share my hon. Friend’s concern. It is a matter for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, but Mr Speaker: On the principle that Members always charities must report on the number of staff who are speak the truth in the Chamber, I have to assume that paid more than £60,000 a year in income bands in their the right hon. Gentleman was sincere in what he just annual report and accounts, and the Charity Commission said. has asked Marie Stopes International to provide an explanation of its chief executive officer’s quite Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): On extraordinary salary. the Chancellor’s desk since last July has been a shortlist of candidates to succeed Mark Carney as Governor of Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): I am afraid the Bank of England. Is the Leader of the House aware that the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup of the Chancellor’s plans to make a statement on who (James Brokenshire) is no longer in the Chamber, but he has recommended be appointed, so that the Treasury when he was in the Government, he promised that the Committee may scrutinise that appointment? next comprehensive spending review would provide £90 million for refuge funding. I note that not a single Mr Rees-Mogg: I am not aware of the Chancellor’s penny piece has been provided in this week’s review, and decision, or the timing of the Chancellor’s decision. I now find it difficult to know what to believe when However,as a former member of the Treasury Committee, things are said from the Dispatch Box, but will the I think it is of the utmost importance that the Committee Leader of the House give me a commitment that that carries out proper due diligence and scrutiny of money, which was promised and planned for—and the appointments, which is hugely beneficial to the good Domestic Abuse Bill—will appear in the Queen’s Speech? running of the country.

Mr Rees-Mogg: The general principle is that if Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ commitments have been made from the Dispatch Box Co-op): The Leader of the House clearly thinks that we to spend money, those commitments are incumbent on were all born yesterday, but we are not going to fall for the Government. They were made, and they continue. I trickery over a dissolution motion that has already been cannot guarantee spending commitments—I am not sought and that, would allow him to crash us out with a the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in case the hon. Lady no-deal Brexit before 31 October. Why does he not had not noticed—but I share her concern about this publish the motion now, so that we can see it? Will he important issue, and, if it will satisfy her, I will write to state whether it is amendable and when he plans to table the Chancellor of the Exchequer to clarify the position. it?

Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Mr Rees-Mogg: I am very grateful for that question. (Con): My constituents in North Hykeham suffer from The hon. Gentleman has just said that he expects his dreadful levels of travel congestion. Indeed, several party to lose the election. Not only has the Labour hundred of them responded to a recent survey on the party passed a surrender Bill, but it has now decided to subject that was carried out in my area. The North surrender as a political force. What we have just heard is Hykeham relief road is a key part of solving the problem. that Labour Members do not think that they can have May we have a debate on it, please? an election on 15 October. Why? Because they would lose. If they are so confident that they would win, they Mr Rees-Mogg: I know that my hon. Friend has been can win and cancel Brexit, which is their real purpose, an amazingly effective campaigner for better transport but they do not trust the people. in her constituency and is tireless in it. She probably does not want a debate so much as the money, although Mr Speaker: Sir John Hayes: a sentence. a debate may be easier to find than the money. Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) Several hon. Members rose— (Con): Barely a life in this place, or beyond in our constituencies—perhaps through family or friends—has Mr Speaker: Order. We need to wrap up this session not been touched by cancer and its treatment. You, by 1.40, so much briefer questions are now needed. Mr Speaker, and the Leader of the House will know of 405 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 406 the critical relationship between detection, diagnosis Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con): During the and definitive treatment. Will the Leader of the House summer recess,I met the wonderful international volunteers therefore arrange either a statement or a debate on early at Simeon Care in my constituency. May we have a diagnosis? It would assuage fear, prevent pain and, debate that would celebrate and recognise the important hopefully, stop people dying. role of international volunteers in our communities, so that charities such as Simeon can flourish? Mr Rees-Mogg: This is a matter of great importance, and one on which debates can be very useful, because Mr Rees-Mogg: May I first congratulate my hon. they help to raise awareness. I am sure that the Chairman Friend on the amazing charitable work he does, because of the Backbench Business Committee has heard that I know he has great personal concern and is very request. supportive of his local charities? Again, I think that is suitable for a Backbench Business debate and my hon. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) indicated assent. Friend knows the form for making applications for them. Mr Rees-Mogg: May I also point out that £34 billion more is to be provided for the national health service? I Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab): Does the Leader of am sure that some of that will be used to improve the House agree that it is about time we had a further cancer treatment services. debate or a statement from the Government regarding the women who have been affected by the state pension Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Government now age increase? It is okay for the Leader of the House to think that they may need to invoke the Civil Contingencies lie down on the job, but many 1950s-born women are Act 2004 after 31 October if we leave without a deal. being forced back into work by his Government or face That Act presumes that Parliament is sitting. Is it not poverty. therefore vital that we sit through 31 October, and will the Leader of the House ensure that the motion is Mr Rees-Mogg: May I begin by thanking the hon. published as soon as possible—before 2 o’clock—so that Lady and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) we can all decide what we are going to do on Monday? for their kind words last week when a protest was proposed outside my house? I was very grateful for that and for their bipartisan approach; I think we all have a Mr Rees-Mogg: There is no question of the House concern that Members’ houses should not be affected, not sitting around 31 October. No one has proposed and I am genuinely grateful. that. The issue the hon. Lady raises is very serious, and I Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Will the have great sympathy for the WASPI women—it is difficult Government back and give time to cross-party calls for for them—but the situation we inherited in 2010 in the financial services industry to provide, or maintain, terms of the public finances necessitated it, and although at least one free-to-use, 24/7 cashpoint machine for I am not unsympathetic to a debate, I very much doubt every high street that supports 5,000 residents? the decision is going to be changed. Mr Speaker: I very much endorse what the Leader of Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend has presented a the House said about the hon. Members for Dewsbury ten-minute rule Bill on that subject, and he may want to (Paula Sherriff) and for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). I have introduce a similar Bill in the new Session. Alternatively, made that point myself before, but I take the opportunity he could enter the lottery for a private Member’s Bill, to do so again: people who have political disagreements which could give him a great deal of time in which to with public figures should not demonstrate in a way discuss the issue. However, I share his concern about the that causes real anxiety and fear either to that Member— need to ensure that people have access to cash. that public servant—or to members of his or her family; that is intolerable. Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): The closure of the bank branch in Brora means Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): May we have an urgent that there will shortly be only one branch for the whole statement on UK Government support for the people vast county of Sutherland. May I humbly request a and Government of the Bahamas given their very difficult debate, in Government time, about the continuing closure situation? of rural bank branches? I have asked for one before, but, in the lingua franca, omnia tempus habent, sed Mr Rees-Mogg: The Department for International dum spiro, spero. Development has sent a team of experts to help to deal with the devastation and destruction caused by Hurricane Mr Rees-Mogg: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is Dorian in the Bahamas. The team is working with the breathing and hoping. That is always extremely beneficial Bahamian Government to assess the situation and provide for all hon. Gentlemen and, indeed, all hon. Members—and support. The Department for International Trade, the right hon. ones,too. [Interruption.] I said “hon. Members”. Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence are monitoring I thought that the word “Members” included everyone, the situation and getting support to those who need it. but I apologise if that is not the case. The Government are doing whatever they can, but my The hon. Gentleman’s point is important, but I do hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. not think that Government time is likely to be the right arena. Furthermore, I may be, to some extent, partial, Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Constituents as I represent a rural constituency, and I do not think have contacted me regarding proposals for a breeding that I should advocate debates in my own cause. kennel in Blaenau Gwent. Many residents have emphasised 407 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 408

[Nick Smith] circumstances, the biggest change to immigration in this country in a decade will not be made without the the importance of good animal welfare, so may we have approval of Parliament? a statement from the Government explaining what action is being taken right now so that dogs get the best Mr Rees-Mogg: Well, Mr Speaker, let us have an possible protection in the future? election; let’s let the British people decide. Stop running away from it—not you, Mr Speaker, but others in this Mr Rees-Mogg: I know that this issue concerns many House. It is so ridiculous to say that the Government people, and the Government have a particular concern are outrageous, undemocratic, shocking and terrible for animal welfare. In the new Session of Parliament because they are offering an election. An election gives there may well be time to have a debate on it. the choice to the British people and validates whatever we do. Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Leader of the House (Lab): Royal Mail Group is trying to sell off Parcelforce is very knowledgeable about procedural issues. If the as a separate business. Communication workers will be House agrees to an election date of 15 October on ready to strike and take action. With an election possibly Monday, is there any device the Prime Minister could coming up, will there be a statement from the Government? use to move that date to beyond 31 October while the House is dissolved, to take the country out with no Mr Rees-Mogg: I am sure that no responsible person deal? would go on strike to interrupt the democratic process of a general election. Mr Rees-Mogg: The date of the election flows from the date of Dissolution. [Interruption.] No, it is not: the Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Plaid Cymru group electionfollows25workingdaysfromthedateof Dissolution, will probably vote against the Government on Monday, so if we are dissolved on Monday—[Interruption.] But Tuesday or Wednesday, but would it not be reasonable the process for that—[Interruption.] No, that is a mistake: for the official Opposition to have the courage of their it is not a minimum once the Dissolution day is set; it is convictions and do likewise? 25 working days from Dissolution. Chris Bryant: It is the other way around. Mr Rees-Mogg: What has happened to the men of Harlech? I thought they were meant to stand steady. Mr Rees-Mogg: No, what the hon. Gentleman is Instead, they are running away from an election, which confusing is when the day of Dissolution is set, and that is very disappointing. is done by Royal Proclamation. I can assure the House that the date will be set and Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): A small family-run the date will be stuck to. I think everybody in this restaurant in my constituency was hit with an eye-watering House wants to see this issue settled; it is the one thing Home Office fine for a minor administrative error in its we have agreement about. The best way to settle it is staffing. I do not want a debate or a statement, but will through a general election—and a general election before the Leader of the House please get me a meeting with 31 October. the Home Secretary so I may ask her directly to resolve this issue and why she has not responded to my letters? Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): Does the Leader of the House not understand that such is the lack of Mr Rees-Mogg: I am sorry to say that arranging trust in this Government because of their behaviour meetings is not the job of the Leader the House. I am that we simply will not vote for a general election unless here to organise debates and to point people in the right and until an extension of article 50 has been secured, direction for getting parliamentary responses—not, I guaranteeing that this country cannot be dragged out am sorry to say, to be a diary secretary. with no deal? That is the condition. Mr Rees-Mogg: The condition seems to change, because LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): the condition was that the legislation was passed. Will the Leader of the House assure me that during Prorogation the Home Secretary will not lay a statutory Lloyd Russell-Moyle: And enacted. instrument to make it illegal to enter Kurdish Syria and that we will continue to be able to support our allies in Mr Rees-Mogg: And enacted; given Royal Assent. Kurdistan? [Interruption.] Royal Assent is the point at which it is enacted—it is when it becomes an Act. If that is the law Mr Rees-Mogg: The rules relating to the laying of of the land, that will be the law of the land, and if statutory instruments when the House is sitting are Members think it through they will realise that the complicated and detailed, and without knowing the Government would not want an election after that law precise form of the statutory instrument I will not be had taken effect and we had had to ask for an extension. able to give any guarantee. The last thing this Government want to do is ask for an extension. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): We have Wes Streeting: But we do. recently learned that free movement as we know it is to end on 31 October. During the referendum campaign Mr Rees-Mogg: Then win an election. That is the the current Prime Minister made a great deal of decisions easy part of it; if Labour Members really have confidence not being made without the democratic agreement of in what they say, go for an election. That is the obvious this Parliament. May we be assured that, in the current point. The weasel wording to try to pretend they want 409 Business of the House5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Business of the House 410 an election, but they do not want an election, and they Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): On Tuesday this week, the are not going to vote for one because we might leave is Office for National Statistics produced the suicide data all about stopping Brexit by people who do not trust for 2018, which showed an increase of 686 suicides over their own voters. the previous year’s figure. Suicide is preventable, not inevitable, so may we have a debate in Government time Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In July of this as soon as possible on the figures and what we can do to year, there were a number of attacks on Christian reduce deaths by suicide? villages in Plateau state, Nigeria, with some 75 houses burned and three Christians killed—a father and his Mr Rees-Mogg: This is obviously an important and seven-year-old son and the elder of a church were worrying issue, and one where any policy initiatives that brutally beheaded. We had a debate in the Chamber can be made to help to reduce the suicide rate ought to some six weeks ago in which we discussed the persecution be made, but I think it is a suitable matter for the of Christians and the Truro report. May we have an Backbench Business Committee. update on where we are, because the murder of Christians is continuing across the world? Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab): My constituent Erin Campbell, who is our member of the Scottish Mr Rees-Mogg: This is a very serious issue, and I YouthParliament, runs the Keep in Mind mental health share the hon. Gentleman’s concern regarding the campaign to reduce the stigma of young people’s mental persecution of Christians across the world. We should health and ask them to talk about it. If there is space do whatever we can—indeed, the Government are doing next week, may we have a debate on the role of young what they can—to help them. I believe the hon. Gentleman people helping their own mental health through discussion met my predecessor quite recently to discuss freedom and conversation? of religion and belief, and I know he is in regular communication with the Prime Minister’s special envoy Mr Rees-Mogg: I think that fitting it in next week on freedom of religion or belief at the Foreign Office. might prove a little difficult. These incidents are dreadful and we must do everything we can to stop them. I am happy to take this matter up Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Will the further if the hon. Gentleman would like to write to me. Leader of the House please apologise to the doctor whom he compared an hour ago to another now disgraced Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): There were former doctor whose actions and misinformation led to 1,187 drug-related deaths in Scotland last year, but the the loss of this country’s herd immunity to measles Home Office has yet to dispatch a Minister to the drugs earlier this year? summit that the Scottish Government wish to hold. Why? Mr Rees-Mogg: No, I will reiterate it because I think this doctor’s behaviour was disgraceful. To scaremonger Mr Rees-Mogg: There is an issue about exactly where and say that people are going to die because of Brexit is power and authority lie and what parts are devolved thoroughly irresponsible and unbefitting to his role. and what parts are not devolved. I will happily take the matter up with the Home Office for the hon. Lady, and Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I will send a reply when I get a response. The Leader of the House is a stickler for good manners, except when it comes to members of the medical profession. Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Putting aside the I wonder whether he can help me. I wrote to the right vested interests of so many of the Government’sMembers, hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris relatives and chums in the other place, and in the light Johnson) 76 days ago about the contaminated blood of the work of the noble Lords last night, may we have scandal. The fact is that 19 people have died in those a debate in Government time on the role of the upper 76 days without receiving any compensation. Can the Chamber? Leader of the House assist me in getting a response from the right hon. Gentleman, which I can then pass Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady may recall that not so on to everyone who has been affected by the scandal? many years ago we had a Second Reading debate for a couple of days on the role of the upper Chamber in an Mr Rees-Mogg: If the hon. Lady sends me a copy of attempt to reform it, but it did not get very far. The her letter, I will of course chase it up, but 76 days ago problem with those debates is that so many people have my right hon. Friend was not yet Prime Minister. However, so many different ideas that nobody can come to a if she sends it to me, I absolutely promise I will take it conclusion about what ought to be done, so I would up and try to get an answer as soon as possible. suggest that if people want such a debate, they have a word with the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns). Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP):Will the Leader of the House confirm whether it is a Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Government tactic to cause reputational damage to Last week, 50 new towns were added to the future high experts such as Dr David Nicholl, who dared to challenge streets fund. Ellesmere Port was not one of them, which the Government and raise legitimate concerns about was hugely disappointing, but then I saw that the majority the impact of no deal? of successful bids were from Conservative constituencies. May we have a statement, please, from the relevant Mr Rees-Mogg: Frankly, I think when people start Minister to assure us that this is not a political fix ahead saying that people are going to die because of Brexit, of a snap general election? their reputations are destroyed by themselves. Mr Rees-Mogg: Oh, of course it is not a political fix! Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the Leader of No Government would ever behave like that. the House and to colleagues for their brevity. 411 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 412

Point of Order Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction Targets 1.43 pm Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Government introduced a SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE negative statutory instrument just three days before the Select Committee statement summer recess for a pilot of managed migration to universal credit and payments to severely disabled people Mr Speaker: We now come to the Select Committee who lost out in transferring to it. The Secretary of State statement. Mr Norman Lamb will speak on his subject said that the Government had been advised by the for up to 10 minutes, during which no interventions Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments to use a may be taken. At the conclusion of his statement, the negative SI, but my office has since been informed that occupant of the Chair will call right hon. or hon. the Committee had not reported on the instrument in Members to put questions on the subject of the statement question and that no such advice had therefore been and call the Chair of the Science and Technology given. Mr Speaker, will you please advise on how she Committee to respond to these in turn. Members as per could set the record straight? usual can expect to be called only once. Interventions should be questions and should be brief. Those on the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Front Bench may take part in questioning. I now call point of order and for her courtesy in giving me notice the Chair of the Science and Technology Committee, of her intention to raise it. Ministers are, of course, who I regret to say I am wrongly advised is Norman responsible for the accuracy of their answers in the Lamb.The Chair of the Science and Technology Committee House, and I am sure that the points made by the hon. is, of course, Sir Norman Lamb. Lady will have been noted on the Treasury Bench. It is open to the Secretary of State to correct the record if 1.45 pm she thinks that that is the appropriate course of action. Moreover, I think there is a salience about this, and I Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): You are very understand that the Joint Committee on Statutory kind, Mr Speaker. I rise to make a statement following Instruments has been alerted to the statement made by the publication by my Committee, the Science and the Secretary of State and will be writing to the Department Technology Committee, of our report last month, “Clean about this matter. In the light of that, I think we have to growth: Technologies for meeting emissions reduction await the sequence of events, and people must draw the targets”. These technologies are essential to confront appropriate conclusions, both from what I have said the climate emergency that we face. and more widely. I start by thanking the more than 80 organisations and individuals who provided us with written evidence and the 27 individuals who gave evidence. I would also like to thank my fellow Committee members, many of whom are here today. It has been an enormous pleasure working with hon. Members from across the House and also with the outstanding staff on our Committee. I particularly want to thank the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), who took a lead on this inquiry. This is an evidence-based report, and it would not have been possible without the input of the many organisations and individuals who have given evidence to us. This summer, the UK had its hottest day on record in July and the hottest August bank holiday on record. This pattern was repeated across Europe. Weather is always variable, but trends in global climate are becoming clear. Global temperatures are rising and extreme weather is becoming more extreme and more common. To avert a climate catastrophe, the United Nations has agreed to keep global warming to within 2% of pre-industrial levels and to aim to keep it within 1.5° C. The Committee on Climate Change has determined that the UK’s contribution to this target should be to reach net zero emissions by 2050. The Government rightly adopted this target by amending the Climate Change Act 2008, a move that was widely supported in this House and recognised by the Committee, but it will take more than targets to achieve this ambition. The UK can point to some historical success in cutting emissions. Since 2000, the UK has achieved greater decarbonisation than any other country in the G20, but we must look to what is needed going forward, not dwell on past successes. Weneed to compare ourselves 413 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 414 Targets Targets not with other countries but with what we need to do to The Government must ensure that regulations deliver restrict global warming. On these measures, we risk new buildings ready for a net zero future. They should falling short. The Committee on Climate Change has also learn from past policies to encourage homeowners warned that the UK is not on track even to meet its to improve energy efficiency in their existing homes. My fourth and fifth carbon budgets, which are interim Committee recommended that the Government should targets designed to achieve only 80% decarbonisation consider amending stamp duty to provide the incentive by 2050 and not the net zero target that is now legally and introduce a “help to improve” scheme, like Help to binding. That is why my Committee launched our inquiry Buy, to help provide the finance for such improvements. to examine what the Government should be doing to Power generation has already achieved impressive put us on track. decarbonisation, but that must continue. However, the The first thing we identified were 10 key areas in deployment of onshore wind and large-scale solar power which Government policy to support the implementation has fallen drastically since 2015 as a result of planning of low-carbon technology has been delayed, cut back or policy and their exclusion from financial support undermined. For example, the plug-in grant for low frameworks. The Government must ensure that there is emission cars has been scaled back and the feed-in tariff strong policy support for building new onshore wind for low-carbon power generation has been closed. We power and large-scale solar power projects and repowering have witnessed a dramatic fall in the number of new existing ones where there are projected cost savings for solar installations, for example, as a result. There has consumers over the long term and local support. Decisions been no new policy to encourage those who can afford are also needed on future funding mechanisms for it to improve the energy efficiency of their homes—an nuclear power and the careful monitoring of the new absolutely essential ambition to achieve net zero. Despite smart export guarantee for renewable generation, which a consultation on the topic in 2017, no action has must provide a proper incentive. followed since. Following the cancellation of the zero Tomeet the Government’soriginal 2050 target, reaching carbon homes policy in 2015, the Government said that net zero emissions will also require the active removal of they would consult on changes to building regulations significantly more greenhouse gas from the atmosphere in 2019 to improve energy efficiency, but no consultation than envisaged in any of the previous illustrative pathways. has been launched, so we are building new homes that The step change required will necessitate a significant we will have to retrofit to achieve net zero. Fuel duty has increase in current support for greenhouse gas removal been frozen for nine years in a row, while bus and train technologies, and the Government should increase funding fares have been allowed to increase every year over the for their research, development and demonstration, ensuring same period. There are even rumours that the Chancellor that they are seizing currently available opportunities intends to cut fuel duty in the Budget. I urge him to for greenhouse gas removal. consider improving public transport and incentivising people to use it instead. Carbon capture, usage and storage has been widely identified as a key technology for decarbonisation in What should the Government be doing? Much of the several sectors. The Government must provide greater media coverage focused on just one aspect of our report— clarity on the details of its CCUS action plan and learn the future of car ownership—but I urge colleagues from previous carbon capture projects to ensure that a across the House to carefully consider all my Committee’s sufficient number of them, of sufficient scale,are undertaken proposals for change. Some key priorities include the and that the knowledge gained from publicly funded fact that transport emissions have barely changed since work is publicly accessible. The scale of the challenge 2012, with transport now bring the heaviest-emitting ahead should not be underestimated, nor should the sector of the UK economy. Indeed, emissions from imperative of succeeding in it. Our report makes a wide new cars appear to be going up. In the near term, the range of recommendations, and I urge the Government Government should be using vehicle excise duty to to act on all our recommendations. encourage the purchase of lower-emitting models and Finally, it is disturbing and worrying that this is one working to make electric vehicle charging points much of the big challenges we face as a society, yet the Brexit more widely available and interoperable. In the longer quagmire that we are in is distracting the attention that term, the Government should bring their proposed ban this Parliament should be giving to how we confront on sales of new conventional cars and vans forward to this enormous existential threat. In many ways, it is sad 2035 at the latest, and they should also move towards a and rather depressing that not enough people are in the future transport system that no longer requires widespread Chamber today to debate such an important issue. At car ownership. Incidentally, this is not an imposition on some point soon, this Parliament needs to get back to people not to have cars, but there needs to be a national focusing on such issues, which are critical to the futures discussion about what our future transport system will of our planet and our society. look like and how we can get about without mass car ownership Several hon. Members rose— The Government must also develop a strategy for decarbonising heating—absolutely vital to achieving net zero—and a mix of different low-carbon heating Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): I am spoilt technologies is probably required. Large-scale trials of for choice. I call Sarah Newton. different technologies, such as hydrogen and heat pumps and heat networks, are needed now to gather evidence Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): As both for future decisions. Whatever technologies are used, a former member of the Science and Technology Committee there will be massive benefits from having energy efficient and a member of the Conservative Environment Network, homes. The cost of housing and of heating our homes I very much welcome this report. Does the right hon. will reduce substantially if we make them more efficient. Gentleman agree that reducing emissions from people 415 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 416 Targets Targets [Sarah Newton] wake-up call on the investment that is needed in this area? That investment needs to come from public and heating their homes is not only good for our climate private sources. change targets, but will reduce costs for people and Does the Chairman agree that carbon capture is vital enable us to end the scourge of fuel poverty? not only to innovation but to protecting areas in the UK, such as our peat bogs, and overseas, like in the Norman Lamb: The hon. Lady makes an absolutely Amazon rainforest? Finally, does he agree that we will central point that is a real win-win. We can achieve the address this only when we work together with other essential decarbonisation of our economy by confronting countries and that next year’s global climate change the problem of how we heat our buildings, particularly conference, which is possibly coming to Britain, is a our homes, but we can also achieve affordable housing. vital time for our future? We often talk about affordable housing and the vital need to increase access to it, but housing is not affordable Norman Lamb: First, I thank the hon. Lady for all unless energy is cheap. We have the potential to minimise her work on the Committee during my time as Chair. and, indeed, to eradicate the cost of energy in our This is probably my last appearance in the Chamber as homes if only we were to follow the objectives set out in Chair of the Committee or, indeed, as the Member of this report. Parliament for North Norfolk, and it has been an enormous pleasure to work with her and other Committee Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I members. warmly welcome this report and congratulate the Chair I agree with all the hon. Lady’s questions. We are of the Committee and its members on the assiduity right to applaud the Government for setting the 2050 with which they have gone about their business and on target in legislation, but, as she says, to maintain public the comprehensive and compelling report that they trust and to confront this existential challenge, we now have produced as a result. Following the House’s decision have to get the measures in place to deliver on the target. to change the target for greenhouse gas removal from 80% by 2050 to net zero by 2050, it is clear that several Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): It is of the actions that had previously been proposed, which a pleasure to have been part of the Committee in were based on the carbon budgets and Government drawing up this report, which is one of our most ambition relating to the 80% target, would have to be important reports over the last few years. Of course we changed. Did the Committee take any evidence on the need to take bold, ambitious steps. We cannot continue extent to which documents such as the Government’s living our lives as we currently are, and we all need to clean growth plan should be amended or extended as a look at what we are doing. With these bold steps, we result of the change of target? also need to look at the bold, retrograde steps that have been taken, such as cutting offshore wind subsidies and Norman Lamb: I am grateful to the shadow Minister removing feed-in tariffs. We could reverse those steps for that contribution. It is fair to say that the legislating instantly, which would help to change the landscape of for net zero came towards the end of our inquiry, so our energy use. much of the evidence was received before that, but the We all love our cars, and many journeys are currently consensus was clear that we need to significantly up the not possible without them, but I recently got rid of my ambition of the policies that are in place in order to car after deciding to rethink my relationship with it. I deliver net zero or, indeed, even to deliver the previous live in a city, so that is possible, but it is more difficult in target of 80%. We not only have to will the end, but we rural areas. Does the Chairman agree that we need to have to will the means to get there. start thinking about whether our cars are necessary and whether our journeys could be taken another way, such Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): As a member of the as by bike, by walking or by public transport? Finally, Committee, I thank our Chairman, all the staff and all will he commend the Scottish Government for our the people who gave evidence on this incredibly detailed commitment to renewable energy? The majority of our and important report. I completely agree with him that electricity generation is from renewable sources, and we not enough time is being devoted in this place to climate want to move that to 100%. change, which is our biggest challenge. It is fantastic news that we set that net zero target, but Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Lady for her excellent does the Chairman agree that, when targets are at risk work on the Committee, and it has been a pleasure of not being met, action needs to be taken to address it? working with her. I do think the Scottish Government It is important to recognise that the Government have have taken important steps in this context. taken action in some of these areas, such as saying no The hon. Lady mentions the areas in which policy fossil fuel heating in new homes by 2025. We have seen has either stalled or fallen back, on which the report is extra electric vehicle charging points pop up in Chelmsford clear. I pick out the zero-carbon homes standard, which and in other parts of the country, and some of our was supposed to come in from 2015 but was abandoned, recommendations are already in place. and the ludicrous situation—Lord Deben made this The widespread use of personal vehicles is cause for point in his evidence as chair of the Committee on concern. Does the Chairman agree that the report is not Climate Change—in which we are building new homes saying that everybody should no longer be allowed to that do not meet the standard we need to achieve and so own a car—we know that cars and vehicles are important, will have to be retrofitted. How ridiculous and inefficient especially in rural areas and in many careers—but is is that? pointing out that we need investment over the decades I also pick out the Government’s decision effectively ahead to give people alternatives? Does he agree that to end new onshore wind in England, although obviously what happened to the national grid this summer is a real not in Scotland, where it is devolved. There are enormous 417 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 418 Targets Targets opportunities to deliver cheaper energy to our citizens if decarbonising its economies and in growing in a way we permit onshore wind, which is widely supported by that does not damage the planet. Unfortunately, through the public provided we avoid areas with important and our development assistance, we are still not always sensitive landscape. consistent in that approach.

Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con): I am Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I thank the also a member of the Science and Technology Committee, Chair of the Select Committee for what he has done and it has been a pleasure to serve under the right hon. and for this excellent report, and I associate myself Gentleman’s chairmanship for the last two years. I am completely with his initial remarks. proud to have served with him over that time, and I wish I understand that the previous Prime Minister took him all the best for the future, wherever it takes him. very seriously how we roll out electric charging points, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will share my but sadly it was right at the end of her tenure. Is the concern that road vehicle emissions have either stagnated Chair any clearer on the Government’s strategy to or increased somewhat. Does he agree there is a role for increase the number of charging points? the Department for Transport in incentivising migration to electric cars and for making progress on the use of Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his hydrogen propulsion for large goods vehicles on our kind comments, and it is always a pleasure to see him as roads today? he comes and goes from this place over many years. He is right to raise this issue, and there is not yet clarity on Norman Lamb: I totally agree. I am grateful for the the roll-out of charging points. Other countries, such as hon. Gentleman’s kind comments, and I thank him for Norway, are well ahead of us in achieving that. To his excellent contributions to the Committee and for encourage people to buy electric, we have to assure always being prompt and reliable. He has the prize them that they will be able to recharge without difficulty. for being the most reliable member of all. I very much agree on the need to incentivise people to Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) shift to ultra low emissions vehicles. In a sense, there is a (LD): I am not a member of the Committee, but, for the personal story here, because I am due to take delivery of record, I would also like to extend my personal thanks an electric car. to my right the right hon. Gentleman for all his kindness over the short years I have been here. I am particularly Bill Grant: Show off. interested in his statement on offshore renewable energy, which is a success story in my constituency. What Norman Lamb: Absolutely, but I am conscious that, consideration did the Committee give to the development financially, it is beyond most people’s reach, so we have of further sites around the British Isles where this might to find ways of making it affordable. By incentivising be appropriate? the purchase, we will start to bring down prices so that they become competitive. Alongside that, we need the Norman Lamb: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for charging points that provide for their day-to-day use. his kind comments. There is clearly an enormous opportunity to help decarbonise our electricity generation Several hon. Members rose— capacity in this country. It is clear from the evidence we received that there is great opportunity to increase Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): Order. This offshore wind capacity around our shores. is meant to be a 20-minute debate. We have now passed 20 minutes and we have quite a lot to get through, so if Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab): On a personal we could all speed up—I want to make sure everyone note,I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his chairmanship, gets in. guidance and education during my short time on the Science and Technology Committee. It has been a great Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. start by congratulating the Chair and all the members The report is hugely important and young people of the Select Committee on this excellent report, particularly have managed to get climate change back on the front pages. its emphasis on the need to take action to address the Is it not the case that there is no single magic bullet to huge, existential threat that climate change presents and perfect what we need, but that the Government and all the role that technology can play. Does he agree that those involved must look at all the answers holistically such technologies, given the right framework, could and address all our suggestions and recommendations also create hundreds of thousands of good high-wage, so that we can honour our young people for putting high-skill and high-productivity jobs and that the right climate change back where it belongs? Government, with the right investment programme, would see the decarbonisation of our economy as an Norman Lamb: I thank my friend for his massive opportunity to transform our economic and manufacturing contribution—when he has not been dragged away by base, creating hundreds of thousands of good jobs and HS2. It has been a great pleasure to work with him. He sharing prosperity around the country in the process? is right: this requires action on all fronts. There is a particular need to focus on the heating of buildings and Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Lady for making on transport. We have made very little progress on those that important point. She is right that we can generate matters, and urgent progress is essential. Unless we economic growth in our country by greening our economy, attack where we put carbon into the atmosphere on but we also have massive export opportunities. We all fronts, we will fail to meet the targets, and fail have the opportunity to assist the developing world in future generations. 419 Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 420 Targets Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I also commend the right hon. Gentleman for his report Backbench Business and congratulate him on his determinedness on the subject, for which I share his passion. Does he share my UK Shared Prosperity Fund frustration that for so many years—since 2010—we have, through lack of tighter regulation, allowed housing to be built without energy efficiency or renewable energy 2.14 pm provision in the regulatory framework? Including such DrewHendry(Inverness,Nairn,BadenochandStrathspey) provision would have transformed some of our (SNP): I beg to move, communities. On the transport side, we need to invest That this House notes with concern that the Government is more heavily in cycle routes and electric bicycles, which more than half a year behind its schedule to provide details of would transform our urban movement. post-2020 funding through a UK Shared Prosperity Fund; supports the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s recommendation that the Fund Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his should at the very least match the £2.4 billion per year currently kind comments. More than a decade ago, a German allocated through the EU structural funds; and calls on the teacher came to stay with us. He was building a zero Government to ensure that full details of the fund are published carbon home in Germany with a ground source heat with urgency, that the devolved settlement is respected and that there is no reduction in the levels of funding to devolved governments pump. That was more than a decade ago, yet we have or their role in distributing funds. made snail’s pace progress in this country on alternative ways of heating our homes. The hon. Gentleman is I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing right to focus on the need to find ways of avoiding us the opportunity to bring this matter to the Chamber having to use cars. Cycling and walking are essential, today. Scottish communities stand to lose millions of and our urban areas in particular must be designed and pounds from Brexit. Communities, charities and other adapted in such a way as to facilitate that. organisations have been waiting for years to find out what funding will be available. There is also a threat to Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): I thank the devolution. Long-term planning has been abandoned right hon. Gentleman for pointing out the importance to Brexit. of the report, not just to tackling climate change, but to We need clarity about the details of the so-called bringing together the two questions of technology and shared prosperity fund. We need to know whether the climate change to achieve our net zero emissions. It was devolution settlement will be protected. Currently, until my privilege to lead on this in the Science and Technology 2020, communities and charities can access funding Committee. Does he agree that the evidence across all worth £2.4 billion a year. Work by the Conference of policy areas in the report concluded that much stronger Peripheral and Maritime Regions—the CPMR—shows leadership was required from central Government—from that, for 2021-27, the UK would have received ¤13 billion the Prime Minister, with a cross-departmental and in regional development funding. For Scotland, failure economy-wide mission—to meet the net zero target to replace that would mean a loss of ¤840 million. For emissions? For whoever is on the Treasury Bench in the the highlands and islands alone, that would be ¤130 million. months and years ahead, the report provides an excellent It is therefore vital that that money is replaced. evidence-based agenda of items that should be prioritised That funding has underpinned further education, in achieving those targets. youth employment, smart cities, connectivity for islands I put on record my tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and communities, small and medium-sized enterprises, for his excellent leadership of the Committee, which has apprenticeships, regeneration, innovation, productivity, been recognised not just by Members but by the science social inclusion and much more. In Scotland, it has and technology community outside the House. supported projects and development in West Lothian, the Orkney isles,Ayrshire,Fife,Argyll and Bute,Midlothian, Norman Lamb: That is really kind. It has been an East Lothian, Perth and Kinross, Aberdeenshire, West enormous pleasure working with the hon. Gentleman Dunbartonshire, Stirling, Western Isles, Inverclyde, and I thank him for taking a lead role in this vital Clackmannanshire,Moray,Shetland, Edinburgh, Dumfries report. I entirely agree with his comments. The Prime and Galloway, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, Dundee and more. Minister has said that he wants the Government to be In the highlands and islands, we would be hard the greenest ever. We have heard that before, but there pushed to find any town or village, let alone our city of now must be substance to back up that statement. That Inverness, that has not had investment since we joined requires key policies that provide the incentives and the the European Community in the 1970s. Indeed, two regulatory framework to deliver that essential target specific and unavoidable icons stand testament to that. by 2050. The Kessock bridge was built through Europe before devolution because Westminster ignored the highlands Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): May I also for decades. wish you well? The tributes, which have come from all sides, show what a great man you are. We wish you well Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) in your retirement. I am not quite sure that it is retirement, (LD): When the hon. Gentleman and I drive around the but we wish you well in whatever future venture you highlands, we cannot help but notice the signs with the undertake. stars on them on new bits of road that say that the development was funded by the EU.Without that funding, those roads would probably not have been built and transport across our vast constituencies would have been difficult for our constituents. Replacing the funding is essential. Notwithstanding the fact that the Minister 421 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 422 has met me several times, tried to do his level best and equipment and expert researchers, and it has enabled knows the area, I am bound to say that we seem no doctoral and post-doctoral students to support priority further forward, which my constituents find not just sectors such as life sciences, marine science, aquaculture, frustrating but deeply worrying. archaeology,Gaelic and the creative economy—all coming together to make the highlands the vibrant place it is. Drew Hendry: It is absolutely true that the money has The University of the Highlands and Islands receives had a massive impact on the infrastructure of the the largest Scottish grant of ¤7.17 million, out of highlands and it must be replaced. ¤68.6 million throughout Scotland. The view of the University of the Highlands and Islands is that Brexit Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): This is an important will reduce prospects in those areas. debate and I know that the Minister has worked hard Erasmus has enabled student and staff exchanges for on the matter and been very good with Members. The more than 30 years. International collaboration and EU hon. Gentleman talks about peripheral areas, and west engagement are at the heart of the University of the Wales and the valleys have particularly benefited. However, Highlands and Islands, and have been since its inception. small businesses tell me that they need to plan. They It was helped by the EU to achieve university status and need some indication of what is happening. We have title in 2011, and is a vital contributor to economic just talked about science and technology. Does the hon. growth. More than £250 million of investment has been Gentleman agree that research and development also levered into the UHI through structural funding. Some require planning? Brexit has taken the Government’s 25% of the university’s non-teaching “other” income eye off the ball, but we need some answers now. has come from the EU. If we were remaining in the EU, there would be much more potential for growth through Drew Hendry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the EU 2020-27 programmes. those comments and I can confirm that I will underline Adam Haxell of MillionPlus, the Association for those very points later in my speech. Modern Universities, said to me: “On UHI itself, it is important to emphasis what a remarkable The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local success story it has been. The idea of having a university that Growth (Jake Berry) rose— covered this area in the early 1990s seemed totally unrealistic to many, and it is thanks to the determination and perseverance of Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Here comes those involved combined with the spread of funds they were able the money. to draw down on, namely European funding streams, that made it happen. Today, the university stands as a pillar of the regional economy of the Highlands and Islands and an important element Jake Berry: Show me the money. of the modern social fabric. The range of courses that are offered The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch through this institution, some of which relate directly to the and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) has repeatedly referred regional culture and heritage, combine to create a unique local to “EU money”. I hope he will acknowledge that it is offer that reflects the needs and ambitions of local residents. Moreover, in the last Research Excellence Framework, 69% of not the EU’s money but British taxpayers’ money and research at the institution was deemed world-leading or internationally that he will reflect on the fact that, in 2018, we paid excellent. For an institution that only gained university title in £13.2 billion into the EU and they returned £4.2 billion 2011, this is a phenomenal trajectory and could not have happened to this country. without the support it got.” He went on to say that Drew Hendry: I will reflect on the fact that if it had “Kate Louise McCulough has written on the historic framing of not been for EU funding—that is what I am talking the ‘Highland problem’ in Scottish and UK public policy and about: funding that is generated out of EU schemes—the how European funds played a critical role in its transformation highlands and islands, as others have pointed out, would from the 1980s to become ‘…an example of what a successful have been ignored by Westminster. peripheral region looks like’.”

Several hon. Members rose— Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Drew Hendry: I will give way one last time, then I Drew Hendry: I will not; I am going to make some must make progress. progress, as I indicated. There is very limited time. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does the hon. Gentleman Communities and charities have used European funding agree that the difference between the European Union to benefit people, especially the most vulnerable and and the Government here in Westminster is that the disadvantaged. The Shaw Trust says: European Union has a regional policy to counteract the “Without ESF— effects of poverty, unlike this Government? European social fund— “funding, Shaw Trust would not have been able to support 70,000 Drew Hendry: Yes—I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman disabled people” for that comment. and Before I took those interventions, I was talking about “offenders…to gain new skills, improve their wellbeing and find the two icons, one of them being the Kessock bridge, work”. which I will not go into now. It is there for everybody to Equally Ours—formerly the Equality and Diversity see and is a monument to the fact that Europe has paid Forum—says that EU funding has provided vital, dedicated attention to the regions that need assistance. The other support to individuals experiencing disadvantage, icon is the University of the Highlands and Islands. EU discrimination and abuse, as well as the voluntary and funding enables research capacity, new facilities and community organisations that support them. It says 423 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 424

[Drew Hendry] The Scottish Government are determined to defend and maintain the benefits that EU funding has given that the continuing lack of consultation on the UK them, to defend the organisations I mentioned and to shared prosperity fund is creating significant uncertainty defend their hard-won fiscal responsibility. How will for communities, organisations and disadvantaged people. the shared prosperity fund ensure the flexibility, which Communities and charities have now been waiting currently exists with EU funding, to allow organisations for years to find out what funding will be available post to fund different policy areas, from biotech to tourism Brexit, yet so far there is nothing from the UK Government, and education? How will the new fund enable strategic other than a name, that the Union flag will be on it and planning within organisations over the longer term, as that it will be administered by the Minister for local EU funding has enabled? Will the Minister guarantee government in England. That is in spite of a recognition like-for-like funding for the ¤13 billion that would have of how valuable the funds have been and a commitment come from the EU? Will he guarantee no detriment to made to replace them. The UK shared prosperity fund the Scottish Government as a result of Brexit? Will he was promised by the Tories in their 2017 manifesto. commit today to respecting the devolution settlement? They said that it would If he cannot do those things—if he cannot make those “reduce inequalities…across our four nations.” commitments—he should work with his Government They said it would be “cheap to administer” and “low to revoke article 50, so that the money is not lost to our in bureaucracy”. Without a like-for-like replacement, communities. If he is not able to do that, all it will do is inequalities will increase, and that is what we are now show the people of Scotland that they need to make a looking at. The Tories were right in the second part of new choice about their future—to be an independent what they said: the fund is cheap and there is no country, taking their own seat in Europe. bureaucracy—because it does not exist. The Library notes that many considerations are required Several hon. Members rose— for the fund, including priorities, objectives, amounts of money, allocation, method of model, length of planning Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I and who administers funds. The latter role currently want to make sure that everybody gets in and that we rests with the devolved Governments. All the organisations start the next debate on time, so Members will have up and charities that have contacted me agree with the to six minutes. Please be aware of that. conclusions of the all-party group on post-Brexit funding for nations, regions and local areas, which in turn 2.28 pm received many submissions, including from the Welsh Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is a Government, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, huge privilege to stand in the House today. We have a Scottish local authorities directly, the Equality and special word in the Cornish language: hireth. There Human Rights Commission and numerous educational really is no direct translation into English, but it is and voluntary bodies. They all said, first, that the fund’s about a feeling that comes from being Cornish. It budget must be no less in real terms than the EU and derives from our inspirational natural environment and UK funding streams it replaces, and, secondly, that the from our history and culture. devolved nations’ share should not be reduced and that it should remain a devolved matter. As someone whose family has lived and worked in my The UK Government must now respect the devolution constituency for generations, it has been a huge privilege settlement and UK Ministers should commit to work to represent my home town. [Interruption.] Mr Deputy with all the devolved Administrations to agree funding Speaker, just before you leave the Chamber, let me say arrangements that make sense for all the nations of the that you were in the Chair when I made my maiden UK. As I have said, currently the biggest piece of concrete speech. As the general election is just around the corner, information we have is a written statement from July this may well be my last speech in this House, and it will 2018 that largely consists of a future planning framework be a speech standing up for the people of Cornwall who for England, with, as mentioned, the English Communities sent me here. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for Minister, who is judged on English community standing and listening to me say that. improvement, in charge of UK funding distribution. There is no doubt in my mind that the funding that The groups and communities aided by the funds do Cornwall has received via the European funds has been not believe that Westminster knows best how to act in absolutely essential. Despite the many natural wonders the interests of the parts of Scotland that need the most of Cornwall, and the hugely talented, creative and support. They do not want to see a Westminster power resourceful people, the fact remains that we are still the grab. There have been no assurances about devolved poorest region in England. There is no doubt that a powers, despite numerous questions raised in the House. huge amount of progress is being made. In no small In mid-November last year, we were promised that a part, that is down to the funding that we have received consultation on the UK shared prosperity fund would via the European Union. Let me explain why. be published before the end of that year, but there is still Just before the summer recess, colleagues from across nothing. All the while, the hard-working volunteers, the House, including my Cornish colleagues and I, charities and communities face rising concerns about supported by 14 first tier local authorities, launched a the future of the people they selflessly serve and about report called “Britain’sLeading Edge”, which demonstrates their own futures. They need more than the new Secretary beyond doubt that the English regions that do not have of State for Scotland saying that he will put Union flags a major city have been historically underfunded and on all projects, with the attendant suggestion of misplaced that there is a bias in the system of the allocation of priorities and a desire to interfere with devolution by public money towards the English regions that do have insisting on UK Government agreement on all UK cities. I am delighted that the Government have responded shared prosperity funding. It is unacceptable. positively to the report and that we have seen some real 425 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 426 progress in some of the funding formulae used to allocate 2.35 pm funding, particularly in the NHS and the recent moves on the national funding formula for education. However, Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): European funding has the models that the Treasury uses in the allocation been hugely important to Wales: particularly to my area of funds for transport and economic development are of north Wales, but also to mid-Wales, and other areas. systematically biased against regional peripheral maritime I echo the concern expressed by the hon. Member for regions such as Cornwall. Inverness,Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry): many of us are frustrated by the lack of information—any This is where the European funding that Cornwall information at all, for that matter—about how the has received comes in. It has enabled us to put that shared prosperity fund will operate. The delay in the money on the table in our negotiations with the Treasury consultation is just symptomatic of the lack of care that when we are securing vital investment for our infrastructure, the Government have shown towards the European such as roads, rail, superfast broadband and education. funding that we have already had and towards what will It is vital for future progress that anyone and everyone happen in future, suggesting that regional funding is a who represents Cornwall and the regions of the UK low priority for this Government. that do not have major cities ensures that there is dedicated funding to close those gaps and to make the This issue is incredibly important in Wales, because progress we want. we get a large amount of European funding. In fact, we get four and a half times more per head from the Cornwall, like all these regions, has huge potential European Union in funding than any other nation or and capabilities that need to be unleashed. We want to region in the UK. Of course, this was not always the play our full part in our nation. We do not want to be case. Some people here will recall that the maps were the poorest region. We certainly have the talent and the redrawn to delineate west Wales and the valleys as the capability to deliver, particularly on some of the key area that would get funding. These maps are called challenges and opportunities our country faces. I think nomenclature of territorial units for statistics maps— we can all agree that there is no greater challenge than ludicrously known as NUTS maps, as that is the acronym. facing up to climate change and environmental degradation, The previous NUTS map for Wales put poor west and our regions have the solutions; we produce the Wales, where I live, in with the rather more prosperous nation’s food as well as vast sources of renewable energy. north-east Wales, and south-west Wales in with the We have talented people, great businesses and wonderful rather more prosperous Cardiff area. When the map universities. With dedicated funding, we are more than was redrawn, suddenly we were allocated funding under able to meet the challenge of closing the gap. I know the European Union’s regional policy, showing the value that the Government want to ensure that no one and no of that policy and also that a degree of cleverness is region in our country is left behind, and dedicated required in acquiring that funding, which we eventually replacement funding for the EU funding will enable us showed. to ensure that. Wales—particularly my area—is economically on a Mr Betts: I wish the hon. Lady all the best for the par with the former communist parts of eastern Europe, future, as she has indicated that she will not be in this Portugal and southern Spain. That is not something place after the election. that we celebrate, of course, although it does bring us in a certain amount of funding. Rather, it is the consequence It is important that areas such as Cornwall get the of decades of marginalisation, neglect and mismanagement continuation of the funding they have had in the past by Westminster. Let me echo the points made by the when we are outside the EU. But there are other areas hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and such as South Yorkshire, which are not currently objective Strathspey. At the very least, can we have an assurance 1 areas but which would get objective 1 funding in the from the Minister that not a penny less will come to future if we were still in the EU. It is important that that Wales under this fund as compared with under European is recognised in any future settlement, so that areas such funding? as South Yorkshire get the proper funding as well.

Sarah Newton: Let me put this beyond doubt; I am Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): My reading is that, just being respectful of the fact that no one has a right actually, the funding will continue. It will just not come to a seat on these Benches. If we have a general election, from Europe; it will come from London—at least in the I do not make any assumption about whether I will be immediate future. returned to this place, but I absolutely plan and hope that the general election does send me back to this Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman may be right, place. Far too many people in this House are complacent but I would like some confirmation of that, and certainly and see themselves automatically being re-elected. In a more information than “the immediate future” because forthcoming general election, I know that I will have to we are looking beyond 2021. There are projects whose go out and earn my right to represent my constituents timescales demand that. In fact, there are projects in my here. [Interruption.] I appreciate that Madam Deputy community that require funding for many years into the Speaker would like me to complete my speech, which I future, including projects at Bangor University. am very happy to do. What is also extremely unclear, to me at least—perhaps I would like Ministers to make an unequivocal the Minister can enlighten us—is the criteria for the commitment in our manifesto for the forthcoming general allocation of money under the shared prosperity fund. I election that Cornwall will receive, pound for pound, would argue for allocation on the basis of need. We will what it would have received had we stayed in the European not accept the milking of funds that would otherwise Union, so that we can unleash the huge potential that have gone to Wales to fund projects elsewhere. That we can deliver to our great nation. is certainly a fear. For example, Welsh farming might 427 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 428

[Hywel Williams] after two decades of regional development funding, have yet to see any tangible benefits to their incomes or proportionately get considerably less money than one small businesses. A recent report highlighted that only would expect if the criteria were based on, say, per head one job was created for every £250,000 of ERDF funding. funding. I believe the UK Government can do much better than that. Albert Owen: I represent a neighbouring constituency, Many large organisations, companies, professional so I share many of these projects in north-west Wales public relations teams and consultants were able to with the hon. Gentleman. He talked about the agricultural successfully apply for this level of funding, but many community. Is it not important that any new allocation small businesses in North Cornwall, which run their of funds is not made through the Barnett formula, as operations on tight budgets and do not have the time or this would mean a huge reduction in moneys allocated? the staff, or sometimes the expertise, to make those We are talking here about food production, much of complicated and onerous bids, were not successful. As which is exported to mainland Europe. the Government look forward to the shared prosperity Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes a good fund, we need to make it much easier for those small point. I raised it with the then Minister over two years businesses to bid. The rules on these bids and structural ago and was given a verbal assurance that that would funds were often dictated by Brussels.The shared prosperity not be the case. Were we to use the Barnett formula, fund must be easily accessible, be more streamlined and funding to Welsh farming would probably be halved. At have a much simpler bidding process, so that small that time, the Minister gave us a verbal assurance, but I businesses in my constituency can benefit. seek a similar reassurance from the Minister today. There are also disparities between urban and rural Funding should go directly to our Government in communities and, although programmes such as LEADER Cardiff, rather than being allocated directly from London helped, we need to go much further. I know that the to individual local authorities and organisations. There Minister was instrumental in the coastal communities is much merit in ensuring that local organisations and fund, which was seen as a really positive fund for local government get the maximum funding. I have communities, including some that I represent, that were heard the argument that diverting money through Cardiff feeling left behind by globalisation. In North Cornwall, would increase bureaucracy and cost, but the fundamental we have very mixed traditional industry, with many argument is that the competent authority should be the agricultural and fisheries businesses, but we are also Government in Wales. Any move in any other direction keen to explore how 5G and fibreoptic technology can would undermine the devolution settlement and would help people to run their businesses from home in small be resisted by Members on these Benches and others. towns such as Bude in my patch. To close, I should point out again to the Government People are making choices about where they live and that Wales is another country and that EU membership work and, as they make those choices, they are looking has had a different value and quality for us in Wales, as at where they want to bring up their children, retire to reflected in the funding we have been getting. That is or move their businesses to. Some of them are coming particularly the case in my own area of Gwynedd, to places such as Cornwall. We want to be able to despite its poverty. One might suppose that that would respond to the changing market conditions in places put us in with areas that voted strongly to leave the EU, such as Cornwall by ensuring we have the business skills because of the marginalisation, poverty and distance and the shared prosperity fund to support these small from London and the seat of power. In fact Gwynedd businesses as they grow. We need to ensure that as voted 60:40 to remain, because of our values, the way businesses are displaced from the cities we can accommodate we see the world, our culture, our bilinguality and our them in rural places such as North Cornwall. happiness at being part of the EU, which is much more congenial to us. Gwynedd is a different place—Wales is Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I actually share a different place—and should be treated with respect. some of the hon. Member’s analysis and concerns about the former structures, and I speak as someone who had 2.41 pm the pleasure of taking forward ESF funds. The urgency Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): Meur ras, Madam now, which was displayed by 100 chief executives writing Deputy Speaker. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to the Prime Minister in August, is to get on with it and to speak in this important debate. make it happen for communities such as Cornwall and One of the promises the leave campaign made during Weaver Vale. Does he agree? the referendum was that European funding would be replaced. I am pleased the Government have pledged to Scott Mann: I agree absolutely. We faced a bottleneck introduce the shared prosperity fund, although I have to after we did not leave the European Union in March—a say that progress has been rather slow. European funding bottleneck with businesses not investing—and we have was designed to tackle inequalities between regions, and to clear that bottleneck as quickly as we can. The the shared prosperity fund should go in with exactly the replacements for the ERDF should be in place to help same aim. I will be lobbying the Government strongly those businesses to grow and expand as the economy on behalf of my residents in North Cornwall to ensure changes. we get our fair share of this funding. I will also be taking On one occasion, there were two businesses working a lot of interest in the consultation, particularly after alongside each other in North Cornwall. One was able yesterday’s spending review. to double its footprint due to a generous EU grant, but The question whether the current European funding that placed the other business, which was working on has been successful can be answered by asking the the other side of the road, a family-owned business, into public in towns such Bodmin in my constituency, who, some difficulty. We have to be aware of some of the 429 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 430 regional and local difficulties when implementing these Durham, South Yorkshire and Lincolnshire—are on funds and of how they can change the economies of the course to slip below the threshold of 75% of EU average towns we work in. GDP per head, which means they will qualify for extra To sum up, while North Cornwall will continue to funding. They would join the three regions already ask for its fair share of these moneys, we also want to acknowledged—west Wales, the valleys and Cornwall—in work with our local authority partners to ensure that receiving a much higher level of funding: about £135 million we develop their programmes and their economic plans. a year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle During the upcoming consultation, I hope to be here upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) said, the Government and to speak up on behalf of the residents of North should be very concerned that these regions are facing Cornwall to ensure that they get their fair share. such inequality and experiencing a need to develop their economies further. We really do want to hear from 2.46 pm the Government how they are going to achieve that. Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): We want to hear from the Government about how the I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, shared prosperity fund will operate and about timescales. Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) on securing We want to hear what they are doing to address the this important debate. It builds on the important growing regional inequality in the UK. How do they see Westminster Hall debate that we held recently on this the shared prosperity fund sitting alongside local growth subject called by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield funds, for example? How will those funds interact with Central (Paul Blomfield). In that debate, we sought to other funds that are available to support regional elicit more information from the Government about development? Are the Government giving themselves a how the shared prosperity fund would operate, and we timeframe in which to eradicate regional inequality? To also focused on the loss of EU funding and the impact date, we have not had enough information from the it would have on regions classed by the EU as less Government. Even at this late stage, we know very little developed. That is of particular importance to me about how the fund will operate. What sort of money because I represent a constituency in the north-east. We are we talking about, and will it be disbursed in the need to know what will happen about the shared prosperity same way as it has been under the EU? Will the Government fund. take into account the regions in greatest need, or not? Since that debate, however, we have heard very little I feel very strongly about this issue, as do other from the Government about how things are going to Members of Parliament in regions that very much need proceed. investment to help our economies to grow and to reach their full potential. These are amazing regions with Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I huge skills and talents among the population. They all thank my hon. Friend and neighbour for giving way need development in digital and higher-level skills, so and for her remarks. The UK is the most regionally we need to use our universities and colleges to drive up unequal country in Europe and indeed the world in that development. They need investment in renewable terms of how the economy is centralised around London. energy—particularly the north-east, which has wonderful Does she share my concern that any fund administered expertise in this—and in pharmaceuticals. We need to from Whitehall will not meet the needs of regions such upgrade the transport system. We must ensure that as ours—the north-east—or allow them to achieve their everyone in these regions can reach their potential and economic potential? contribute to the future prosperity that we all want to Dr Blackman-Woods: I absolutely agree. Indeed, we see, particularly in the communities that need more have pointed out in previous debates that, given what support from this Government. we know about regional inequality in this country, we do not trust this Government to use these funds to Several hon. Members rose— eradicate it. As we have heard throughout this debate, we need a Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): shared prosperity fund to replace the EU structural Order. May I stress to colleagues that there is real funds currently being paid to the UK regions through pressure on time, and if they could take more like five the European regional development fund and the European minutes than six minutes, that would enable us to have a social fund. The total value to the UK of funding from fair allocation of speakers this afternoon? these streams in the current funding round is £9.15 billion, or £1.3 billion per year, so we are talking substantial sums of money.There are also smaller pots of funding—the 2.53 pm European maritime and fisheries fund, the LEADER Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): I programme, the youth employment initiative and so congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, on—amounting to a further £100 million a year. Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) on securing Although there are funding implications for the whole this debate. I thought we were going to be singing from UK, our withdrawal from the EU and the loss of access the same hymn sheet today, because in previous debates to these funding streams is of particular importance to on this topic we have agreed, but unfortunately he has, the regions of greatest need. If the UK were to remain yet again, let nationalism get in the way of some of the in the EU, we would be due to receive significant facts and figures, and the actual impetus and help that additional funding in the next round. I am not sure that these structural funds deliver. He is quite right that in the Minister has taken this issue on board. It would be the period 2014 to 2022 the funding arrangement for really good to hear him acknowledge what these regions the EU structural fund is about £15 billion for the would have got if we were staying in the EU. The three United Kingdom. That gets topped up to about £26 billion, regions that are currently affected—Tees Valley and I am informed by the Library, with UK match funding. 431 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 432

[Luke Graham] Luke Graham: I secured a debate on Scottish funding and devolved funding just before the summer recess to The hon. Gentleman raised a point about some of the which no SNP MP turned up. In that debate, I gave the roads being built in his constituency, as did the hon. opportunity to challenge those figures and have an Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross in-depth, detailed discussion about them, because they (Jamie Stone). In those constituencies—yes, they are are not recognised by the Library. If they are, I will be right—the EU flag does fly, but why does the Union flag happy to welcome another debate on the topic, so that not fly proudly alongside the EU flag and the Saltire we can take it further. when the UK has made a contribution, as I believe my I would like to go on to the positive things that we are right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to confirm? trying to do. The shared prosperity fund allows us to Scotland received around £1.2 billion from EU structural formalise the process of applying for funds. It could funds between 2010 and 2016, which is great, and I will also build and improve the city deal and growth deal come on to say why I want that to be secured and projects that have already been awarded Scotland to the continued.Thehon.MemberforInverness,Nairn,Badenoch value of over £1 billion. The money in the city deals has and Strathspey parades and champions the EU structural been very welcome, but I think Members on both sides funds, as will I, but he was less willing to recognise the of the House would agree that the city deal and growth £1.2 billion of additional funding awarded to Scotland deal process could do with some improvement. We can by the Government in the spending round just yesterday, have less bureaucracy, and central Government should which will give our devolved Administration in Scotland provide support to not only the devolved Administrations over not a six-year or 10-year period but a one-year but the local authorities and civic groups that are applying period the greatest settlement we have had in over a decade. for these funds. So often, exciting and transformational My constituency of Ochil and South Perthshire has opportunities are lost because local businesses and local only received £1.1 million to £1.3 million a year of EU groups do not have the skills to meet a Green Book or funds between 2014 and 2020 so far. That is not enormous, European set of qualifications to access the funding but it is helpful. Although Scotland has 8% of the UK that they so require. population, we receive around 14% of the UK allocation, so it is very important to us. I know from visiting Bob Stewart: It seems to me that there is a requirement companies such as the Loch Leven Equine Practice in for the shared prosperity fund organisation to have a my constituency that these funds can be very helpful to local office, particularly to help small businesses. small businesses. Luke Graham: I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion. The funds are meant to help combat structural inequality That is just the kind of innovative proposal that we and have a transformative effect on the economy, but should be putting forward and having a cross-party from my constituency point of view, they have not been discussion about, to ensure that the shared prosperity able to do that. In Clackmannanshire, we still have a job fund works for the entire United Kingdom. density of only 0.5 per head of population. We have higher rates of unemployment and youth unemployment Although we could talk about this for a great many than the Scottish and UK averages. In Perth and Kinross, hours more, I am conscious of time, so I will conclude. I on the other side of my constituency, we also see it am pleased that the Government have guaranteed funding reflected in some of the official figures in terms of to 2022, which I am sure the Minister will confirm, so deprivation and in the recent increase in the number of that we can give assurances to the charities,local government drug deaths per 1,000 people. and businesses in our communities. We do not come with grievance; we come with solutions. Let us keep the I am quite excited about the fact that the shared central fund of around £1.2 billion plus inflation for the prosperity fund can be a fresh start. Unlike the SNP, future, but let us also recognise that it has not delivered Conservative Members will be requesting more funding transformational change for our constituents in Scotland. and coming up with innovative solutions. [Interruption.] Perhaps we could put some of the UK match funding If the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch into a new direct central fund that local authorities and and Strathspey would like to make an intervention, I businesses could bid into, along national lines, to provide will gladly let him. He certainly did not let anyone on greater clarity and guarantees for our local communities, the Government Benches intervene on him. so that they can access the funds they so badly need to Drew Hendry rose— thrive and survive. I agree with colleagues in Wales, Scotland and England Luke Graham: I will let him intervene, but before I that these funds provide opportunities to all our regions. do, the House will be well aware that my hon. Friend We want to combat structural inequality and improve the Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) tried to intervene the opportunities we have, and we want to do it through on the him, and he refused her multiple times. It is a a fine United Kingdom system. friendly understanding among Scottish MPs, who have to get back to friends, family and constituencies on a Several hon. Members rose— Thursday, that we usually let one another intervene because travel is very restrictive. He failed to do that. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): However, I will extend the courtesy to him in the hope Order. I am afraid I will have to impose a time limit of that it will be reciprocated to my colleagues in future. five minutes. Drew Hendry: I thought the hon. Gentleman was inviting me to intervene on him. He mentions extra 3 pm money for Scotland, but he does not take into account Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): the cumulative cuts of £12 billion that we have had over As we know, the central aim of the shared prosperity the whole decade. fund is to reduce inequality and enable all our communities 433 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 434 to share in the country’s economic growth. It could not vital that we can access as many funds as possible to be any more needed than it is now, because regional ensure that the communities we represent are properly inequality has grown since 2010. resourced, that the imbalances are shared out and that My constituency is in the north-west, and it is no the inequalities across the country are actually eradicated surprise to me that earlier in the year the Institute for altogether. Public Policy Research North published a report finding For too long, people have felt left behind and held that the north has borne the brunt of the Government’s back by a system that does not work for them. We do austerity drive. We have had a £3.6 billion cut in public not want more platitudes from London. We need a new spending, while the south has had a £5.1 billion rise in approach—one that really empowers our local communities real terms. We have seen public sector employment fall by giving them the responsibility, power and resources by 2.8%, compared with 1.2% in London, and spending to shape their own futures, in line with local priorities on transport rose by more than twice as much in London and local need, because decisions that impact on local as in the rest of the country. We have seen weekly pay communities are best made by those communities increase by only 2.4%, compared with 3.5% nationally, themselves. It does not make sense that, in 2019, London and the number of jobs that pay less than the living still controls all the resources and holds all the levers. It wage has risen by nearly 11%. is time we realised that business as usual is not going to cut it and that further Westminster handouts on Of course, these cuts have had and continue to have a Westminster terms are not what our communities want. negative impact on our communities. There are now We need this new prosperity fund to be really owned by more than 200,000 extra children living in poverty in local people so that it actually delivers for their priorities. the north than there were five years ago, meaning that 800,000 children are now living in poor households. That is nothing short of a scandal. The economy has 3.4 pm been growing consistently—very slowly,but consistently— Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con): I throughout the last five years, so having such an extra thank the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch number of children growing up in poverty during that and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) for securing this debate, period shows that the economy is not working for many which is important for Scotland and the whole UK. In in the north. The points that have been made about recent weeks Opposition Members have made many, maintaining, at the very minimum, existing levels of fairly wild, allegations that the Government have not expenditure are absolutely right. The budget for the UK adequately planned for Brexit. Aside from the fact that shared prosperity fund must match, in real terms, what we have seen daily evidence of considerable planning, the EU has been paying, but we need to go much and that we cannot possibly know today how effective further. I am worried about the lack of transparency such planning will be in the fullness of time, many are from the Government about how they are going to still determined to paint a bleak picture. I hope the adopt this fund, because I believe we have good grounds provision of the UK shared prosperity fund will provide to be worried. some reassurance to those who have instead kept an Let us take the future high streets fund. It is potentially open mind and offer an indication that the Government a good initiative, but one that I fear has already been have planned for some time to replace the structural hijacked for party political ends. Ellesmere Port put funding that the UK receives via the EU. British taxpayers’ forward what I considered to be a good bid. Indeed, the money is currently managed in the European Union, Government seemed to think it was, because when it far away in Brussels,and I believe this fund will considerably was rejected in the first round, the Department wrote benefit my constituents. back a very nice letter to say that it was impressed with This funding is in the region of £2.4 billion per the bid and that it was well placed for the second round annum to boost economic development. It will provide that would be decided some time next year. However, support for businesses, employment and agriculture, somehow—out of the blue—another round of funding and as stated in the industrial strategy, it will strengthen for successful bids was announced only last week. Sadly, the “foundation of productivity”. Fisheries will be covered Ellesmere Port missed out again, but when I saw that by separate funds. The funding will be administered by the majority of the lucky towns were in Conservative the different nations of the UK, and I understand that, constituencies, I was overcome by a flush of cynicism. as always, the UK Government will respect the devolution Could it be that the announcement was entirely connected settlements regarding the allocation of funds. to secret plans to hold a snap general election? I think The laudable aim of the fund, which could be said to that subsequent events have borne out my concerns in be at the skeletal heads of terms stage following stakeholder that area, which is why we cannot trust this Government engagement, is to reduce inequalities between communities. to allocate these funds in a non-partisan manner. A consultation will follow, to enable flesh to be added to Towns such as Ellesmere Port and Neston in my the bones. I welcome the statement that the new fund constituency have been struggling for a long time. The will be low in bureaucracy and duplication. The single rise of the internet and changes in shopping habits are most important fact is that the UK Government have leading to shops closing on a weekly basis. The sums we guaranteed to maintain all EU funding that was agreed need for a truly transformative approach will not come before the UK leaves the EU. from one pot alone. If the shared prosperity pot is Let me reflect on infrastructure in Scotland, the bulk operated in tandem with other funding pots, as the and best of which was built long before we joined the Local Government Association suggests, there would European Union. I will name just two iconic bridges—the be an opportunity for an integrated and creative approach Forth rail bridge and the Forth road bridge—neither of that could lead to a better outcome for all. Although we which encompasses Chinese steel. I believe that recent must ensure that this does not reduce the scope for data show southern Scotland as a less developed area. matching funds in relation to any other projects, it is When considering my constituency, I welcome the fact 435 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 436

[Bill Grant] replaces.Westminster must not use Brexit as an opportunity to short-change the poorest parts of the UK. Equally, that this funding will provide support to local small the UK Government must not prevent local areas from businesses, several of which have highlighted to me that having appropriate control over the funds. Secondly, they routinely struggle to make a living, never mind a this is not just about the money. There is a real fear that profit, under the burden of increasing rates and taxes, it will not only be a financial grab but a power grab, and while also accommodating increased salary costs. that the Westminster Government will use this opportunity The unemployment rate in Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock to reduce funding for the areas that need it most and to is 6.9%, which is far above the Scottish and UK average claw back powers that sit naturally with devolved of around 3.8%. My constituency has immense potential, Administrations and other local areas. and really needs this funding. That high unemployment Those are very serious questions that need to be rate would further concern me if, as part of its method answered. Since November 2018, we have had positive of allocating spending between regions, the new UK and constructive meetings with the former Chief Secretary shared prosperity fund replicated the measures used by to the Treasury, the Secretary of State for Wales and the the EU for its structural funds—namely GDP per person— former Business Minister. Disappointingly, the all-party because in some former mining areas that would result group has not yet been granted a meeting with the in a distorted picture. Minister who is in his place today. None of those whom The Joseph Rowntree Foundation suggested that the we spoke to were able to give us any cast-iron answers funding should be focused on “inclusive growth” and be to the questions I have just set out. We are therefore “allocated according to the employment rate and earnings of the continuing to demand that the Government guarantee least well off”. not a penny less, not a power lost. That would be most beneficial for constituencies such A recent worrying development is that the Government as mine, and others across the United Kingdom. are considering rolling the local growth fund for England I have met several constituents with good, innovative in with the UK shared prosperity fund. We know this ideas and sound STEM and business backgrounds who only by rumour and leaks than by any clear or transparent could perhaps benefit not just local communities but statement, which is of course the modus operandi for the wider UK. They are people whose ideas, with the this Government. As it stands, our recent report shows support of local councils and community partnerships, that the UK Government must find £1.8 billion per year could come to fruition if the right funding was available to replace EU funding for the UK’s poorest regions, but for them to bid for. It is therefore vital that we conserve that figure will reach £4 billion per year if the two funds what was formerly ERDF and ESF funding. are merged. The possibility of combining existing UK-managed funds with the UK SPF has led to fears I thank the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen of double-counting. Kinnock) for his work on the all-party group for post-Brexit funding for nations, regions and local areas. He produced There were already fears that funding for the UK an excellent report in November 2018. Will the Minister SPF may fall short of the EU’s projected 2021-2026 assure the House that the shared prosperity fund will be budget, given that three areas of the UK—Lincolnshire, sufficiently funded and flexible enough to take account South Yorkshire, and Tees Valley and Durham—have now of the diverse needs of my constituency, with its many fallen into a higher priority category. That is a damning struggling rural ex-mining communities that bear the indictment of the utter failure of this Government’s legacy of a harsh industrial past, as well as those towns economic policies. They have gone into that higher whose high streets have been ravaged by the change in priority category and would therefore receive more shopping trends and, sadly, the demise of local banks? money in the next spending round than they each did between 2014 and 2020. That concern has now increased. 3.9 pm I urge the Government to reconsider whether merging Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): I thank the hon. an England-only fund with a UK-wide fund is a logical Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey step and to recognise that rolling the two funds together (Drew Hendry) for securing this important debate. would inevitably create serious confusion and raise serious doubts about transparency. I would therefore be Over a year ago, I set up the all-party group on grateful if the Minister addressed that in his summing post-Brexit funding for nations, regions and local areas, up and specifically answered this question: will the SPF with the aim of holding the Government to account on and the local growth fund be rolled into one or not? We their promises regarding the introduction of a shared need clarity about when the SPF consultation will be prosperity fund that would replace EU funding in full. I published. That is an absolutely priority. am afraid to report that in this past year, despite organisations across the country relying on information The great advantage of the current system is that it is so that they can plan their 2021 budgets, the Government data-driven and evidence-based, thus guarding against have done absolutely nothing to make progress on the pork-barrel politics. There is a real worry that the SPF shape of that new fund. will become a politicised slush fund, with a Conservative Government using it to buy votes in marginal seats. I In November, the all-party group published a report hope that the Minister’s response today will reassure us that set out 18 questions that the Government needed that our constituencies will not be left short-changed by to answer. These questions were based on submissions a sleight of hand in Westminster. from around 80 organisations from across the country. I will not name all 18, but the most pressing questions that were unanimously agreed on by all stakeholder 3.14 pm organisations were the following. First, the UK shared Jane Dodds (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Thank prosperity fund must comprise not a single penny less in you, Madam Deputy Speaker,for giving me the opportunity real terms than the EU and UK funding streams it to say a few words on this really important issue. I am 437 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 438 grateful to the hon. Member for Inverness,Nairn, Badenoch European structural funds have been vital in the and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) for bringing it before delivery of inclusive growth in Scotland. The European the House. social fund has been used to increase the skills available We have heard from colleagues from Wales, and I in Scotland’s labour market and to help to lift people echo what they said about the importance of this pot of out of poverty into increased social inclusion. The money for people in Wales, particularly for rural areas. European regional development fund is supporting small As the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, I know and medium-sized enterprises and is investing in Scotland’s that we are particularly reliant on these sorts of funds transition to a low-carbon economy. There is still a lot to support our residents. I would like to say a few words to be done to tackle inequality and we cannot let these about one project in particular: Workways+ in Powys, issues be overshadowed by the process of Brexit. which helps young people to access jobs. In rural areas, The Scottish Government value the European structural we have a real challenge in keeping young people in our funds dearly, not just because of the monetary value, communities. Many want to move out to perhaps more but because we have a shared vision of what we can exciting and more urban ways of living, but we want to achieve when they are used in a strategic way. I am not keep them in our communities. They are our future. convinced that the UK Government share that vision. I They are going to be the families of the future and the agree with the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and people who work in our communities, and we want to Neston (Justin Madders) that local areas do not want keep them there. Workways+ in Powys does a wonderful handouts on Westminster terms. It is difficult for anybody job of keeping our young people in our rural community. in Scotland to know precisely what the UK Government’s I ask the Minister to address four points. First, will he intention is. We have been waiting an inordinate amount give us a very clear timescale for publishing where the of time for details on the UK shared prosperity fund. shared prosperity fund is going? Secondly, what is the From the 2017 Tory manifesto until now, we still do not consultation process? Thirdly, will he give us an assurance know. The hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock that the moneys from this fund will go to the devolved (Bill Grant) himself called it skeletal—I think that is Governments? Certainly, in terms of Wales, he has had being generous, frankly. It is not a trivial amount of very clear representations on that. Finally, we all have money that we are dealing with here. Third sector our views on the politics of this issue, but we share a organisations, which are delivering vital services in our common interest: we want this fund, and we want the communities, need to know what their future will be. timescale for the fund and information to be given to us The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) and our communities as quickly as possible. set out well the questions that he and his APPG have been seeking and referred to the lack of answers and clarity that, shockingly, we still have. We need to know 3.17 pm how the new fund will be drawn and whether there will Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I thank the be criteria to allow for the treatment of contaminated hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Jane Dodds) land, for example, such as in Shawfield in the Clyde for setting out her stall for her constituency. In the short Gateway area. Decontamination programmes are crucial time that she has been here, she has been a strong to development but cannot go ahead until funding is advocate for her constituents. I also thank my hon. Friend secured. Opportunities to clarify matters have come and the Member for Inverness,Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey gone, with the spending review only yesterday failing to (Drew Hendry) and the Backbench Business Committee address the issue. for granting us time to discuss this fundamentally important These are vital funds, and many of the organisations issue. that depend on them are doing valuable work to mitigate It is difficult to think of an area of Scotland’s economy some of the worst excesses of this UK Tory Government. that has not benefited from structural funds, and my Those on the Tory Benches could barely be providing a constituency is no exception. Being part of the EU has better argument for Scottish independence. We are once been beneficial to Scotland in many ways, just as it has again seeing a tale of two Governments, with the Scottish for Cornwall, as the hon. Members for North Cornwall Government working to increase equality and grow the (Scott Mann) and for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) economy in a sustained and sensible way, and the UK set out, and for Wales, as the hon. Member for Arfon Government hellbent on pursuing a hard exit from the (Hywel Williams) and other Members said. There is no EU without adequate preparations for what will come doubt that communities will be poorer as a result of next. leaving the EU—culturally, socially and economically. The Scottish Government have been clear on the five Organisations in Glasgow Central have received over key principles that they would like any new funding £241 million in European structural funds since 2014 scheme to adhere to. First, there should be no reduction according to figures from the Library. in the level of funding that Scotland currently receives The aims of European structural funds are closely from the EU. Secondly, the devolution settlement must aligned with those of the Scottish National party—to be respected, and there must be no reduction in the grow the economy while tackling inequalities.Our Madame powers that the Scottish Parliament currently has. Thirdly, Ecosse, Winnie Ewing, MEP, fought for European the Scottish Government should be an equal partner in funds when Westminster got its sums wrong and tried the development of the shared prosperity fund. The to deny them to the highlands of Scotland. The Scottish hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Government have set out a programme of sustainable Graham) let the cat out of the bag when he talked about inclusive growth in their national performance framework the bypassing of the Scottish Government— and we are working as a responsible Government to improve outcomes across a range of indicators. It is Luke Graham: Will the hon. Lady give way? extremely important that any replacement fund does not Alison Thewliss: No, the hon. Gentleman has had diverge from the aims of our inclusive growth strategy. his say. 439 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 440

Luke Graham: The hon. Lady is misinterpreting me. I tactics at the moment, threatening everybody.The Minister did not talk about bypassing the Scottish Government. should pause and think about the distress that his I specifically said—I am sure that Hansard will have Government caused to so many regions, and continue recorded this—guaranteeing the £1.2 billion plus inflation, to cause to so many regions now. We have a bully-boy plus an additional fund that could be administered Minister, a bully-boy Prime Minister, and a bully-boy centrally so that they could work together in partnership, adviser in Dominic Cummings. Let us see a little bit of because that is what our constituents want: devolution respect for the Chamber and for the democracy that it plus central Government in a United Kingdom. embodies. EEC funds helped Merseyside, and they helped other Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman is talking about regions. The Government’s proposals raise a fundamental a United Kingdom system here. He is talking about the question that others have raised today and that the UK choosing Scotland’s priorities. That is not what our House must address. Even if the UK leaves the European communities deserve, that is not devolution and that Union and ends our participation in these funds—or does not respect the devolution settlement, and he substitute funds—can we trust the Government to ensure knows that just fine. that the proposed prosperity fund will offer the same Fourthly, the current flexibility in the allocation of funding and reach the same communities? That question funds should not be reduced. Fifthly, the replacement has been asked by virtually every Member, including scheme should be operational in time to be implemented Conservative Members, and there is also concern about in early 2021, so that communities, organisations and the delay. businesses in Scotland do not lose out on much-needed As was pointed out in June by my hon. Friend the funding. There must not be any gap, and the Minister Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), a report needs to be able to guarantee that today. published recently by the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions states that had the UK remained in Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): With the EU we would have been entitled to ¤13 billion from the threat of actually being out of the EU in literally a EU structural funds between 2021 and 2027. That amount, matter of weeks, is not a gap inevitable, given that we an increase from ¤10.6 billion, would have allowed five are talking about the end of 2021? regions—including west Wales and the valleys, Cornwall Alison Thewliss: I agree with my hon. Friend that a and the Isles of Scilly,Tees valley and Durham, Lincolnshire gap is inevitable. We do not know what will happen, and and South Yorkshire—to receive the lion’s share of the the UK Government cannot tell us what will happen funds, as they represent some of the least developed next week, never mind in 2021. We cannot believe regions in Europe, where GDP falls below 75% of the anything that they tell us on these commitments. European average. The fact that those regions fall below Will the Minister today commit to giving the principles the 75% threshold is itself a indictment of a Government set out by the Scottish Government the consideration who have let them down and continue to do so. The they deserve, because the people of Scotland did not very fact that the UK has gone from having two less vote for any of this Brexit mess and should not lose out developed regions to five in a matter of six years testifies on funding as a result? Scotland has benefited from EU to the failure of their economic policies. funds while the UK Government looked the other way, Falling GDP is another legacy of the Conservative from the Kessock bridge to inequalities, education and Government’s austerity agenda, which resulted in 200,000 industry. Will he guarantee today that Scotland will have more children living in poverty in the north than five not one penny less under the shared prosperity fund years ago. As other Members have said, under this than we would have received under the EU? Government regional inequality is at an all-time high. According to analysis conducted by the Institute for 3.23 pm Public Policy Research, the north of England has lost £6.3 billion of public spending as a result of the Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): We have had 11 speakers Conservatives’ economic policies, while the south has and interventions, and I think they have all expressed gained £3.2 billion. The Chancellor’s spending round their concern about the lack of detail. I thank the hon. statement yesterday did little to address regional inequality, Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey despite what was promised earlier in the year. (Drew Hendry) for bringing this to our attention. The importance of the structural funds that the UK The breaking news as I arrived in the Chamber was receives from the EU should not be underestimated. that the right hon. Member for Orpington (Joseph According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, they Johnson), the Prime Minister’s brother, is standing down are worth £2.4 billion a year, which goes to the very from Parliament, apparently to spend less time with his people whom the Government have left behind. That family. £2.4 billion is broken down between £1.2 billion a year As a Member of Parliament who represents a Merseyside from the EU and equal funding matched by other seat, I very much appreciate, in a personal sense, the public and private sources. The funds finance research role that EU funds have played in ensuring investment and development projects, support the retraining and in our region, as in other regions. I remember that skilling of workforces, help small and medium-sized Geoffrey Howe, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, businesses to grow, and encourage local areas to make talked about the managed decline of Merseyside in the the transition to a low-carbon economy. early 1980s. The European economic community was Let me now deal specifically with the proposal for a virtually the only social and economic lifeline that the shared prosperity fund. Previously, Ministers have city region had. committed themselves to maintaining the current The Minister can sit there chuntering and shouting arrangements for structural funds throughout the transition from the Front Bench, but I think he should behave in a period. Given the Government’s commitment to pushing much more dignified way. The Tories are using bully-boy the UK towards a no-deal Brexit, perhaps the Minister 441 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 442 will tell us for how long the Government will now I also congratulate the hon. Members who have commit themselves to similar levels of funding, and spoken; I will not have time to name them or respond to over what period. I am sure that he will be able to do so. all the points they have raised but this shows that across Similarly, while the Government have said that the the House there is real passion for the communities that fund will “reduce inequalities between communities”, each of us represents, and I share that passion for my they have consistently failed to offer further details own constituency, of course, in east Lancashire. about the specific design of the funds and who will be Many of the Members who have contributed referred likely to administer them. Virtually every Member who to our being the recipients of EU money, and I think it has spoken today has drawn attention to that pattern. is really important that the point is made for people There is a fear, particularly among the devolved who may be watching our proceedings today at home Governments and the metro mayors, that the shared and following our every word about the future of EU prosperity fund will be yet another centralised fund structural funding and the UK shared prosperity fund controlled by Whitehall—a slush fund, in the words of that this is not the EU’s money. This money belongs to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen the British taxpayer; it is taken into the EU and is Kinnock). The clue is in this: the Prime Minister said at sliced, diced and taken away. It is then returned to the a recent leadership hustings in Cardiff that there should British people wherever they may be in our United be a “strong Conservative influence” over how money Kingdom with a whole load of strings attached. that replaces EU structural funds is spent in Wales, In 2018, the UK contributed £13.2 billion to the implying at the very least that this Government will European Union and it sent us back £4 billion—£4.3 billion interfere with the distribution of funds far more than to be precise. We know in this country better how to previously stated. That is key. spend UK taxpayers’ money than the European Union Ministers have claimed that a shared prosperity fund does; many Members on this side of the House, if not would be easier to administer and reduce bureaucracy, the other side of the House, will certainly agree with that. but again there is little detail on how this will be achieved, We in Government have a history of working with especially if the Treasury is hellbent on administering the devolved Administrations, metro mayors and local these funds centrally and with little flexibility for the authorities across our United Kingdom, and that is involvement of the regions and devolved Governments. why we are so pleased that we were able to commit over The UK remains one of the most economically unequal £500 million of Government funding to the Glasgow countries in Europe. The gap between the richest and city region deal. Specifically in the Inverness and Highland poorest is almost twice as large as in France and three city region, we are proud to have contributed £53 million, quarters larger than in Germany. The EU structural among other things, towards the funding of the University funds have played an important role in addressing these of the Highlands, about which the proposer of the regional inequalities, which the poorest communities debate spoke with such passion. I know he will let no cannot afford to lose. It is time for the Government to opportunity pass him by to ensure that the Scottish dispense with the smoke and mirrors, come clean about Government, the European Union and the UK the details of the Government’s plan to replace EU Government are all credited for the contributions they structural funds and offer a cast-iron guarantee that the have made to that exciting growth deal. communities that rely on these funds will not be cut adrift and there will be as much devolution and subsidiarity Jamie Stone: An issue that I and others raised with in these funds as possible. the previous Secretary of State for Scotland is that, The prevarication and procrastination at the heart of while we welcome the Inverness and Highland city the Government is affecting the continuity of services region money, there is some evidence that the money is already being provided, with staff in various agencies not going to some of the furthest corners of the highlands, currently funded by EU funds being laid off. For example, such as Wick and Thurso in my constituency, where it Members will probably have had contact from employment has been badly needed. support providers for ex-offenders, particularly vulnerable people whom Jobcentre Plus is ill-equipped to help. Jake Berry: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent Staff are having to be laid off because we do not know point on behalf of his constituents. I know it is not the about the future of the fund. first time he has made it, and we should certainly At this stage, we still do not have any details on what continue to monitor that. I, like him, suspect that there the fund will cover. The Government are more than six may not be a completely even-handed approach to months behind schedule in providing details of the disbursing money around the highlands, but he will post-2020 funding and have not yet published a know more about that than I do. However, these growth consultation. The indecision of the Government in so deals across our United Kingdom in Wales, Scotland many policy areas is damaging the country and their and Northern Ireland are an example of what we can indecision on this particular fund follows that pattern. achieve when we work together as four nations. The Ministers need to get a grip of this sooner rather than awesome foursome that makes up the United Kingdom later. is the most successful political partnership and Union that Europe has ever known, and that is why, despite 3.32 pm what the separatists may say in today’s debate, we are The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local stronger together. Growth (Jake Berry): It is a privilege and an honour to Turning to the main points raised in this debate, I have the opportunity to respond to this debate, and I understand that recipient organisations of European congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, funding have concerns about the certainty of the future Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) on proposing of their funding, but it is important that we acknowledge— it. It presents us with a timely opportunity to update the [Interruption.] Is the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen House on the progress we are making. Kinnock) seeking to intervene? 443 UK Shared Prosperity Fund5 SEPTEMBER 2019 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 444

Stephen Kinnock: Yes. I thank the Minister for giving and the answer is absolutely yes. We are clear about that, way. He just referred to the funding as “European and we want to work with the devolved Administrations funding”, but I thought he said in his opening remarks and metro mayors as partners. We do not want to set that it was not European funding. Will he clarify that the UKSPF up against the devolution settlement, which point? we will celebrate in the country. The second question was about when the quantum Jake Berry: I am so pleased that the hon. Gentleman will be clear, and it will not become clear until we have is listening closely to my response. What I would say is completed the comprehensive spending review. I will that if he, like me, is concerned about protecting the point out, however, that the quantum from the European British taxpayer’s pound, perhaps he will reflect on the Union would also not be clear until 2020. People have fact that the Bill passed by Opposition parties last night referred to the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions in this Parliament will cost the UK taxpayer £1 billion a report, but that is of course a report by a think tank. It month for every additional month we spend in the is not a report from the European Union setting out the European Union. That will cost up to £24 billion. quantum at this stage. Maybe he should be committed, as I am, to leaving on Finally, turning to the guarantee provided by the 31 October, as the British people want, if he is concerned Government, it is quite right that areas are worried about spending money. about the future of their funding, which is why the Government have set out a guarantee—deal or no deal. Peter Dowd: I am glad the Minister is telling us how This week, I was involved in discussions approving new much it costs—£1 billion a week or a month or whatever spending in the current period of European funding, it happens to be. He is very good with his numbers, so and the guarantee enables commitments to be made can he give us an estimate of how much a no-deal Brexit until 2021, and it will apply to commitments that are will cost the country each month? paid out between now and 2023, so there is certainty for projects. Projects are still being approved. With the Jake Berry: It seems to me that the hon. Gentleman is guarantee, there will be no gap, and clarity about the suffering from a version of Stockholm syndrome. I quantum and the form of the UK shared prosperity happen to believe that the British people and this British fund will become clear at the comprehensive spending Parliament are best able to determine the future for our review, notwithstanding the fact that we are already country. The rebel alliance is going to Europe with its involved in deep consultation with both the recipients flag fluttering behind it—a white cross on a white of the funding—British taxpayers’ cash—and the mayors background—surrendering British sovereignty, but I and devolved Administrations. Official level consultation am proud to be part of a Government that will never is ongoing between the devolved Administrations and support that. the UK Government. The most recent meeting took place on 2 August, and additional consultations will Peter Dowd: This stuff about surrendering is bizarre, happen later this month. because this is the Government who surrendered last Madam Deputy Speaker, I would have loved to have night to what is apparently the surrender Bill. That is said more, but— the situation we are in. They should publish the Yellowhammer report and make it transparent, so that Sarah Newton: Will my right hon. Friend give way? we can see how much a no-deal crashing out will cost us. Let us get the facts on the table, so that we can Jake Berry: I am sorry, but I am unable to give way. I examine them—if they do not prorogue Parliament am bringing my remarks to a conclusion. before then. 3.42 pm Jake Berry: I am sure the hon. Gentleman would like to have blamed the passing of his surrender Bill on the Drew Hendry: I thank all hon. Members who took House of Lords. The Members of Parliament who part in today’s debate and the Backbench Business voted for it know that the Opposition parties have Committee for the opportunity.I must correct the Minister, passed a law meaning that we cannot leave the European because the CPMR is not a think tank. It is a representative Union on 31 October, deal or no deal. If we do get to an organisation of local authorities from across Europe, election—if the Labour party finally has the backbone and I know that because I used to be its vice-president. to have a general election—I will be reminding lots of We asked the Minister to clarify the flexibility and those constituencies in the north of England that it was timetable, but we have had no answer. We asked the the Labour party that stopped us leaving on 31October. Minister whether funding will be matched pound for pound, but we have had no answer. We have had no Dr Whitford: Will the Minister give way? answer on whether devolution will be fully respected. He said—[Interruption.] I will allow the Minister in. Mike Amesbury: Will the Minister give way? Jake Berry: To be absolutely clear and to repeat what I said in my contribution, the Government will fully Jake Berry: I am sorry, but I must make some progress, respect the devolution settlement in respect of the UK and I would like to briefly get on to responding to the shared prosperity fund and, I am sure, in all other debate. respects. Specifically, I want to deal with the two pertinent questions, which were repeated by many others, asked Drew Hendry: In that case, I will accept the Minister’s by the hon. Member for Aberavon in an extremely good comments, but he will be judged not on cheap words speech. The first was about whether the UK shared but on the actions of this Government and on whether prosperity fund will respect the devolution settlement, they fail our communities. 445 UK Shared Prosperity Fund 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 446

Question put and agreed to. British House Building Industry Resolved, That this House notes with concern that the Government is 3.45 pm more than half a year behind its schedule to provide details of post-2020 funding through a UK Shared Prosperity Fund; supports Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s recommendation that the Fund beg to move, should at the very least match the £2.4 billion per year currently allocated through the EU structural funds; and calls on the That this House notes with concern the ongoing shortage of Government to ensure that full details of the fund are published housing and the housing crisis across England; further notes with with urgency, that the devolved settlement is respected and that concern the number of families in temporary accommodation there is no reduction in the levels of funding to devolved governments and the number of people rough sleeping; acknowledges that there are over one million households on housing waiting lists; or their role in distributing funds. recognises the Government’s target to build 300,000 new homes each year; acknowledges that this target has been missed in each Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): year that the Government has been in office and that the number On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Earlier of homes constructed by housebuilding companies that are deemed today, following the statement by the Secretary of State affordable is insufficient; notes the pay ratios between executives for Northern Ireland, I asked about aspects of being and employees in FTSE 350 housebuilding companies; and calls Irish, British or both in relation to an upcoming review on the Government to tackle the housing crisis as an urgent that the previous Prime Minister had promised. In priority. response, the Secretary of State stated: I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting “It is vital that this House continues to respect the dual time for today’s debate and all the Members who will citizenship components that the hon. Gentleman talks about”. participate. It is amazing to see so many Members here, I talked about the birth right to be Irish, the birth right given the week we have had. At the request of Madam to be British, or both. What is open to Members such as Deputy Speaker, I have stripped quite a lot from this myself to ensure that the Secretary of State reads the speech because so many people want to speak—I will Good Friday agreement and recognises that the utterances do my best. I want to give credit to the High Pay Centre that they make in relation to the politics of Northern and the best possible exposition of its amazing research Ireland have grave consequences not only for the peace, for this debate on the state of the house building industry. but for the social and economic prosperity of the people No Member of this House, whatever their party, can of Northern Ireland? but be fully aware of the crisis in housing and homelessness in all our constituencies. I will open the debate by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I looking at the scale of the current housing crisis, by thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his considering the record of the FTSE 350 house building point of order. Obviously, I am sure he will understand companies and their contribution to solving this crisis that Ministers are responsible for what they say in the and finally, and most amazingly, by analysing the utter House. He has expressed concern about what was said pay inequality that is rife across the British house earlier; he has made his point, and I am sure it will have building industry. been heard on the Treasury Bench and will be reported On streets across our country and on the very doorstep back to the Minister. of Parliament, British citizens who simply cannot afford a place to call home are sleeping rough. For the general public, they are the visual representation of our homelessness crisis. As highlighted by the Children’s Commissioner last month, homelessness is far more common in 21st-century Britain. Not a single week goes by without a normal, hard- working family in my constituency being evicted from their privately rented property and sent to temporary accommodation miles away from family, their schools and their jobs. They join over 83,700 households across our country, including 124,000 children, who are living in temporary accommodation.

Joan Ryan (Enfield North) (IGC): May I add to the picture the hon. Lady is painting by telling her that Enfield has significant problems on housing and homelessness? We have the capital’s highest eviction rate and the second highest number of residents in temporary accommodation, and homelessness has rocketed by 250% since 2011. Does she agree—from what she is saying, I think she clearly does—that the Government’s policy is not only hurting the housing market but causing a huge set of social problems, too?

Siobhain McDonagh: The social and financial cost of homelessness far exceeds what we spend on temporary accommodation, which was £1 billion of taxpayers’money last year—every £1 of it badly spent. Some 6,980 families 447 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 448

[Siobhain McDonagh] What went wrong? Did they perhaps just not have the land to build the houses? Those four companies are in my constituency are trapped in bed and breakfast sitting on a land bank of more than 300,000 plots accommodation, having been there longer than the between them. If we add in the rest of the FTSE 350 six-week legal limit, including 810 children. Others are house building companies—Bellway, Bovis, Countryside, stuck in hostels far away from their schools, families Crest Nicholson, Galliford and Redrow—the collective and friends. land bank is a staggering 470,068 plots, yet they completed Some of my constituents are housed, at least temporarily, 86,685 homes between them. in Connect House, a warehouse on the busiest south London industrial estate. For anybody who wants to see Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): I what Connect House looks like, please have a look at congratulate the hon. Lady on her excellent speech, the video on my Twitter account. with which I broadly agree. Does she agree that while, I am just crawling through my speech, because I see from a moral point of view, we obviously need to build more and more people here. more houses in the public and private sectors, we also Other families who have come to see me are on the need to radically reform the planning system, which ever-expanding waiting list, with 1.2 million families takes far too long and is a big roadblock to getting the across our country now waiting for a place to call homes we need for people? home—1.2 million. Just 6,464 new social homes were built in 2017-18, the second lowest number on record. Siobhain McDonagh: I absolutely agree with the hon. At that rate, it could take 172 years to give a socially Gentleman and would love an opportunity to have a rented home to everyone on the current waiting list. debate about planning law, building on the green belt That is utterly appalling when we compare those figures and other matters. I could speak at great length about with the 150,000 social homes delivered each year in the them, but I will not because I want to allow other mid-1960s or the 203,000 council homes that the people to get in. Government delivered in 1953. It has been done before I would like Members to focus their attention on pay. and we all know that we can do it again. Some of the figures are staggering. Let me be clear: I In Merton, where my constituency is based, 10,000 am new Labour to the core. I have no problem with families are on the housing waiting list, with lettings for successful business people earning a lot of money, but just 2.5% of them in 2018-19. What hope can I give the what happens in this sector goes beyond earning a fair other 97.5% that they will ever find a place to go? I day’s money. I was furious to see that, almost exclusively would like to provide statistics on home ownership but, on the back of the British taxpayer through Help to again, I will move on to some of the other data in my Buy, Persimmon awarded its former chief executive Jeff speech. Fairburn a staggering £75 million bonus, despite an The statistics and the stories that I have detailed this appalling record of utterly substandard homes. How afternoon should provide thoroughly fertile ground for can that be right or fair? the British house building industry to get on and build, but its record does not match the potential. Here is the Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): reality: our country’s housing target is 300,000 new That is a truly staggering pay packet. Does my hon. homes a year—a figure that has not been reached, as we Friend agree that, given that Persimmon has recently have already identified, since 1969, when councils and given back the freeholds in Cardiff that it mis-sold to a housing associations were building new homes. England number of homeowners, it should do that for everyone is now on course for the worst decade for house building to whom it has mis-sold in the whole country? since the second world war. I would like to look specifically at the performance of Siobhain McDonagh: I completely agree with my the leading house building companies in our country. hon. Friend and congratulate him on all the work he To the best of my understanding, the figures are all has been doing. Without the attention he has given the correct as of June. In the last financial year, just 86,685 issue, much would not have happened. homes were completed by the 10 FTSE 350 house building companies, despite an extraordinary collective Let us be clear: the money does not flow through the pre-tax profit of more than £5.37 billion. That is a companies. Thanks to excellent new research from the mind-boggling figure, which is better understood when High Pay Centre, I can reveal the quite extraordinary broken down. pay packets of the 10 FTSE 350 house building companies. Let us start with the four FTSE 100 housing companies: In the heart of our country’s housing crisis, the four Barratt, Persimmon, Taylor Wimpey and Berkeley. In FTSE 100 house building companies spent an eye-watering the most recent financial year, Barratt completed just £53.2 million on their CEO pay. David Thomas at 17,579 homes—slightly more than Persimmon, which Barratt earned £2.811 million; Peter Redfern of Taylor finished 16,449 homes, with profits of £1.1 billion, of Wimpey earned £3.152 million; Tony Pidgley at Berkeley which half was down to public subsidy through the reached £8.256 million; and Mr Fairburn, formerly of Government’s Help to Buy scheme. Taylor Wimpey Persimmon, got a whopping £38.9 million. came third with 15,275 homes completed but, in fourth place,despite an astonishing pre-tax profit of £934.9 million, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The hon. Lady is is Berkeley homes, which completed a pitiful 3,894 homes. making a great speech and I totally endorse everything Together, those four companies collected a pre-tax profit she has said. I am really worried as to what the heck the of an unimaginable £3.68 billion, despite completing shareholders are doing. Do they not question this when just 53,198 homes—less than 18% of the Government’s they have their annual general meeting? They are meant house building target. to bring the companies to account on such matters. 449 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 450

Siobhain McDonagh: Actually, the shareholders are at the moment. If an individual wants to buy a plot of doing quite well as well, because they are getting quite a land and find a builder to construct a house for them, lot of money on the back of Help to Buy. That could be they find so many obstacles in their way. Does the hon. the subject of another debate. Lady agree that that may be a way forward to improve I have no doubt that those four men work hard and on the current situation? have a grasp and understanding of their industry that few others could provide, but surely high pay is supposed Siobhain McDonagh: I think the hon. Gentleman has to be about high productivity and high quality of product. stolen the words of the hon. Member for South Norfolk It seems to me that the more substandard the properties (Mr Bacon), who also does loads of work on self-build. they build and the lower their rate of productivity, the It is an issue that small and medium-sized builders have more they get paid. There seems to be no consequence been squeezed out, but unfortunately I do not have time for poor performance. We are in a housing crisis—is it to address that matter today. really appropriate to provide such preposterous pay Let me return to the matter of pay ratios. At Barratt, packets, considering the house building record I have the pay ratio between median executive pay and median described? construction worker pay is a disappointing 113:1. At Taylor Wimpey, it is an awful 126:1. At Berkeley, it is a Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I agree shocking 331:1. But at Persimmon, it is an absolutely with almost everything that the hon. Lady has said, but deplorable 1,561:1. Jeff Fairburn, in his final year of I ought to point out—I declare an interest, because as employment as chief executive of Persimmon, received part of an Industry and Parliament Trust fellowship I more than £38.9 million, yet his average member of spent a day at Berkeley—that the main shareholder of staff earnt £37,118. That was for technical staff. We do Berkeley is Tony Pidgley, who started that business not know what the company’s subcontracted electricians, himself. He left school at 15, unable to read and write, roofers or other wet trades people might have received. and he has employed thousands of people, created a How can that be fair? great deal of wealth for this country and paid a huge The vast scale of inequality looks even worse in the amount of tax. Moreover, he would deny—and he light of UK housing prices. Assuming that the average would be right to do so, unlike some of the others the UK house price is £230,630—I assure the House that it hon. Lady rightly mentioned—that Berkeley produces is not possible to buy anything in my constituency or in poor quality. It does not; it produces extremely good the constituency of the right hon. Member for Enfield quality. Berkeley refuses to be a member of the Home North (Joan Ryan) for that price—and that the average Builders Federation because it does not consider itself a UK construction worker saves 10% of their earnings to volume house builder. buy a house, it would take them 92 years to save up and 19 years just to save for the deposit alone. But the Siobhain McDonagh: I certainly agree with the hon. average FTSE 350 CEO could buy 28 houses outright in Gentleman in part. I have had the honour of meeting one year, 532 houses over 19 years—the years that the Mr Pidgley and I give him credit for his career and his construction worker would be using to build a deposit—and actions. His profits do not come from Help to Buy, but, 2,567 houses over the 92 years in which the construction even so, it does seem like a very unequal company. I worker would be saving up to afford their home. On no have no problem with people earning well at the top, level can this be right or fair. It cannot be right for our but the people at the bottom should not earn badly. society. It cannot be right for us as taxpayers. It is simply wrong. The system is broken. In the main, the Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I market does not reward hard work, endeavour and congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate meeting the housing need. In my view, it certainly and making an excellent speech. On her last point, as should do. far as I understand it, Berkeley constructed no affordable Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It housing last year, and for Barratt Homes, Persimmon will be obvious to Members that we have very little time and the others in the top four, the figures are around left—not surprising in the current circumstances—and 18% to 20%. It is a complete scam. The amount of that lots of people want to speak. We will try to manage money they are taking out at the top, and not just for without a time limit. Let us see whether we can be executive pay or shareholder pay—I have no problems courteous and consensual. If everyone takes around with shareholders receiving dividends and so on—is at five minutes, we will get there. the expense of much-needed social and affordable housing. The whole viability element of the planning system is a complete scam and should be done away with. 4.4 pm Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): That is Siobhain McDonagh: I absolutely agree with my hon. very helpful, Madam Deputy Speaker. Friend, and I know that he works really hard on that subject. Just like the issues about the whole planning May I start by congratulating the hon. Member for system, that could be the topic of another debate, to Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) very which I am sure we would both want to contribute. sincerely? I realised how strange times are in this particular area of housing debate when I attended a lunch at the The median pay for FTSE 100 house building CEOs Institute of Economic Affairs, where the hon. Lady was is 228 times that of the typical UK construction worker. the guest speaker. I realised that it is the case not so much that there is political cross-dressing going on, but Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the hon. that many of us are searching for solutions outside the Lady agree that one way forward would be to increase traditional parameters; and that is because, as the title the opportunities for self-build? It is incredibly difficult of the White Paper from January 2017 said, we have 451 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 452

[Mr Richard Bacon] NHS trusts trying to accommodate staff, whether young junior doctors, paramedics or ambulance staff; by local a broken housing market. Wemight have some differences Army commanders trying to retain that very expensively about the causes of the situation she accurately describes trained staff sergeant with 20 years’ experience; by the and about the best prescriptions for solving it, but it is Royal British Legion and other veterans groups trying absolutely clear that supply does not rise to meet demand. to accommodate veterans; by probationers and ex-offenders She used the word “market” in her last couple of trying to make sure that ex-offenders coming out of sentences, which rather implies that we have a market prison have accommodation that is not the drug dealer’s for housing, but we have no such thing; we have a sofa; and by the homeless themselves—I have seen just tightly controlled oligopoly, and actually supply does outside Berlin, in Potsdam, homeless single mums building not rise to meet demand, because most suppliers do not their own accommodation for an affordable rent. wish to damage their own profit margins by oversupplying That brings me to my next point: it has nothing to do the market so that prices fall. We would not expect that with tenure. One can use self-build and custom house in any other area of business and we should not expect building both for private ownership and for all kinds of it in housing. affordable accommodation models, including mutual Fundamentally, we need to change the model. If we housing co-operatives and various other types of social have a broken housing market, we need to create a landlords. different ecosystem, and one of the fundamental things I am keen to keep my remarks brief, but I want to say we need to do is increase choice for consumers. It is by a few things to the Minister about what the Right to far the single biggest thing people spend money on Build Task Force, which I have been involved with for —whether renting or buying, it is the thing that people some years, is now looking for. We had £350,000 of spend most of their monthly income on—but it is the funding from the Nationwide Building Society, and with thing over which they have the least choice. In any that we can evidence an additional 6,000 to 9,000 houses ecosystem in which the consumer had any say, it would added to the pipeline in the last three years. If we can do be the thing over which they had the most choice. that with £350,000, think what we could do with some As well as increasing choice, we have to lower barriers serious money. I would like the Department to take on to entry, and that is where I want to bring in my the funding for that, but also as part of a help-to-build favourite subject, mentioned by my hon. Friend the team installed within Homes England with the task of Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson), namely self-build facilitating the delivery of service plots, buying land and custom house building. and working with local authorities and other public sector partners on public sector land for a range of Matt Western: On choice, I totally agree with the client groups, especially the young and those who have hon. Gentleman’s point. One of the critical things, in been most marginalised. That team should also reach addition to self-build, is the reintroduction of all the out to anybody who wants to get a service plot so that small and medium-sized enterprise builders we lost we reach a point where someone can go to the plot shop after 2007-08. Apparently, a quarter of all houses built in the local town hall in their home town and find a plot are built by SMEs, whereas it used to be two thirds. of land as easily as people can in the Netherlands, where I have seen it done. Mr Bacon: In 1988, it was indeed two thirds. If we We have to put help to build on a level playing field increase the regulation and make it more difficult to get with Help to Buy.The Government are currently planning hold of land, it is the SMEs that will go, because only to spend £22 billion on Help to Buy, subsidising demand, the big firms with the big balance sheets can afford it. It when we should really be subsidising supply. If one is a very risky enterprise, and actually local planning wants more of something, then subsidise it and it will authorities prefer dealing with a small number of large happen. I know from many people I have spoken to, companies because it is easier for them. That is one of including Treasury Ministers, that there is a desire to do the other things we have to change. something about the growing cost of Help to Buy. The obvious thing to do is to wean people off Help to I am accused of wanting everyone to learn how to be Buy—a subsidy for demand—and wean them on to a a builder and build their own house. It has nothing to subsidy for supply, thus increasing supply. do with doing it yourself. It is very important to stress We have to remove the regulations that currently that. It is about self-commissioning and giving the allow local authorities to charge people to be on the customer more power. I will be briefing the Minister register each year. Most do not, but Camden and Islington next week on the terms of the Self-build and Custom councils charge £350, and people do not get any guarantee Housebuilding Act 2015, which commenced three years of a plot for that. That should be revoked. I said that to ago in April 2016, and the way it was augmented Gavin Barwell when the regulations were introduced. I successfully by the Housing and Planning Act 2016, so was not put on the Committee for some reason, even that now the more people who are on the local register, though it was my own private Member’s Bill that became the greater the legal obligation on a council to provide the Act, but I went along anyway and spoke. He said on suitable planning permissions. the record—I can show this to the Minister—that if it The point about having individuals and associations proved to be a problem, he would take a look at it. of individuals under the terms of the legislation is that Although he is no longer the Minister, the Government it could apply to anybody. It could be used by school were committed to looking at it. I can tell the Minister governors wishing to use the provision of a serviced that it has become an issue and we should now revoke plot of land as a recruitment and retention tool; by these regulations. The charge is supposed to recover the local social services directors trying to recruit social cost of keeping a register, but that is really very small—it work managers in parts of the country where it is can be done in an exercise book kept in a drawer or on a difficult to find the right calibre of social worker; by spreadsheet. 453 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 454

We need to introduce a series of specific planning I wrote back to say that I did not agree and I would still reforms, particularly allowing for exception sites where like a meeting. Surprise, surprise, Redrow said, “There councils are not fulfilling their legal obligations. We is little point in a meeting.” All Members of this House need to make it clear that the national planning policy have a reasonable expectation that if they request a framework has a presumption in favour of sustainable meeting with an organisation or company in the private development in circumstances where councils fail to or public sector to discuss an issue that is of concern in meet their duties under the legislation, irrespective of their constituency, they will get that meeting. Redrow whether there is a five-year land supply, in terms of arrogantly—not to me, but to the people I represent— providing service plots. We need to introduce changes declined to hold such a meeting. I deplore that, as I to the planning system that provide greater predictability hope others do. to reduce the planning risk—for example, through the It is unjustified and unfair, and I fail to see how compulsory use of form-based codes or through local pressing on with that policy is either reasonable or development orders.Weneed to take forward the proposals acceptable. Redrow is doing this simply because it can in the White Paper to facilitate land pooling, which has and because it can continue to make money out of the worked very successfully in Germany and elsewhere on residents I represent in this House. The leasehold scandal the continent. has caused a great deal of distress for homebuyers We do have a broken system, and doing more of the across England, particularly in the north-west, with same will not produce a different result. We have to many homebuyers trapped in their current properties, think differently and do differently. I encourage the some unable to afford to purchase their freehold and Minister to take that responsibility seriously. others even unable to sell their property. Redrow is not unique in this. Other developers are just as involved in 4.12 pm this scandal. Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I have a situation who made a typically thoughtful and interesting in the Winnington part of my constituency of Weaver contribution to the debate on housing. Vale, where resident Emily Martin and many others are I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham caught in this leasehold trap. In terms of the next phase, and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on her survey of people have benefited from the reforms that we in this the state of the market and some of the negative aspects place have campaigned for, and the properties then of it that we need to address. Anybody who reads her become unsellable. speech in Hansard tomorrow or at some later point will consider some of the companies that she named to be a Sir George Howarth: That adds to the unfairness of roll call of disrepute. it. Redrow is not unique in this, and all these companies On that theme, I wrote to the chief executive of need to look at themselves, the business model they are Redrow,the developer,about a leasehold scandal following adopting and the ethics involved. conversations with concerned residents of Summerhill I will conclude by asking the Minister three questions. Park in my constituency. Summerhill Park has over First, may I invite her to join me in condemning Redrow 455 houses and 70 flats. There is a two-tier system of and the other companies that are still involved in this ground rents in operation. Residents who purchased practice? Does she agree that the freehold purchase cost their properties early on in the development pay ground of 10 times the ground rent is fair and reasonable, rents of £150 a year, while those who purchased homes whereas 26 times is sheer daylight robbery? Finally, in the later phases pay £250 a year. My constituents does she agree that it is desperately important that we want to be enfranchised. They want to purchase their have legislation to curtail the naked greed of those freeholds and are willing to pay a fair price. They developers engaged in this disreputable practice? believe—and I agree with them—that a fair price would be 10 times the annual ground rent, which they think is fair and reasonable and are willing to pay. Redrow, 4.18 pm however, is asking for 26 times the annual ground rent, Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): which I think, frankly, is unfair and unreasonable. May I begin by congratulating the Minister on her In the light of the Government’s reform proposals appointment? It is good to see her in her place at the and the Law Commission’s ongoing work on leasehold Dispatch Box. reform, I approached Redrow to arrange a meeting to discuss the residents’ ideas further. Redrow contended The house building market in the United Kingdom is in its response that the lease agreements are fair and highly oligopolistic, dominated by very few very large transparent, which my constituents strongly disagree players, some of whom are extremely unresponsive to with, as do I. Its business model is considered by the needs of local communities, as the hon. Member for many—including, as I am sure the Minister will confirm, Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) laid out the Government—both unreasonable and unjustifiable. so well in her speech. They can have an adverse impact The offer of giving residents the opportunity to purchase on communities in the long term, but they can also have the freehold at a fixed price of 26 times the annual an adverse impact in the short term, while their houses ground rent is not, in my view—and, I hope, in the are being built. Government’s view—reasonable or fair. We had an example of that in Rayleigh on Monday In response to my letter, Redrow said: morning. The schools came back, so clearly the traffic “it would be inappropriate to move away from the practice that increased, but it was massively exacerbated by three has been adopted over the last two years, with all Redrow households, contraflows all in operation at the same time on three including those [who] have already acquired their freehold at different housing developments: Barratt David Wilson Summerhill Park.” at Hullbridge, where a nearby key road called Watery Lane 455 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 456

[Mr Mark Francois] is that we need tighter regulation of the registered social landlords market. Some of these are very large organisations has been closed for many weeks because of the works; indeed. They are not properly regulated by the Government, Countryside at Rawreth Lane in Rayleigh, which has a and Sanctuary is most certainly not properly regulated contraflow in place; and Silver City, a lesser known, by its rather useless board. smaller developer which has a contraflow on the London Road in Rayleigh. The cumulative effect, made worse Several hon. Members rose— by a road traffic accident that morning, was that the town was in effect gridlocked, and many of my constituents Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. were extremely frustrated as they were simply trying to We really do need to keep aiming for the limit of five get to work. minutes, because I am sure that people will want to hear what the Minister has to say. She has been asked many I have remonstrated with the county council’s highways questions, and the answers must be heard, too. department for granting permits to work on the highway to all these developers at the same time. It has a strategic 4.24 pm overview of the highways network, and I think it should Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): We are in the grip look at that again. I have also contacted all the developers of a major housing crisis. You will not remember, directly and encouraged them to get this work done as Madam Deputy Speaker, but I can just remember “Cathy fast as possible and then get out of the way, and the Come Home”, and the determination of our predecessors responses have been instructive. The smallest, Silver in the 1960s—this picks up on some of the points made City, has promised that it will be finished by the end of by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden the week and that it will be off the highway network. (Siobhain McDonagh) in her excellent opening speech— Countryside, an Essex-based developer, has said that it that the lives of families should not be destroyed by will no longer operate its contraflow in the morning and housing misery. Today, lives are being destroyed again. evening rush hours,thus considerably easing the congestion. One day—sooner, I hope, rather than later—we will Barratt David Wilson, the major national house builder, again need a major national programme of council house has been the least responsive of all. It has been on site building to give those families a chance. since February, and my constituents in Hullbridge are Last month, I had the privilege of hosting a visit to just about sick and tired of it. As the hon. Member for my constituency by members of the Archbishop of Mitcham and Morden has pointed out, its chief executive, Canterbury’s Commission on Housing, Church and Mr David Thomas, is on a nice little earner. According Community. We had “Faith in the City” in the 1980s, to its 2018 annual report, he earned a total package of “Unemployment and the Future of Work” in the 1990s, just shy of £3 million—some 20 times the salary the and both those Church reports caught the mood of Prime Minister earns for the responsibility of running the times and profoundly influenced the policies of the country. I suspect that Mr David Thomas could not Governments. I hope that the archbishop’s housing find Hullbridge in my constituency with a TomTom. commission report will do the same when it is published. We visited a family in my constituency—mum, dad and Barratt David Wilson has now, under pressure, a young son—who are essentially living in one room in contemplated extending the hours of its work to try to a ramshackle property above East Ham High Street. finish the job, but it still will not give me a firm date for There is serious damp and a rat infestation. They have when its works will be completed, Watery Lane can be been there for five years, and both of the couple have reopened and it will get out of the way. In short, it is a been employed and were working in the NHS. Recently, bad neighbour in my constituency, and I think it is a second child was born and, tragically, very soon died, about time that this large, unresponsive, uncaring national probably because of the conditions in the home. That is house builder, run by a fat cat on £3 million a year, was how it is for thousands of people. After the visit, one held to account. My constituents deserve better than commission member emailed me and commented, quite this, and these developers should put more people on rightly, that our society should not tolerate people the job, get the job done quicker and get off the roadway. having to live in such conditions. We are tight for time, but in my last minute I want to I was delighted to take the commission members to mention Sanctuary Housing, the largest housing association the Didsbury site, where Newham Council’sown developer, in my constituency. I had an Adjournment debate on 18 Red Door Ventures, which was set up in 2014, is building July about what is wrong with it, so I shall not reiterate new homes on council land that was previously occupied it all now, suffice it to say that I had a meeting with its by a community centre. It is committed to building 50% chief executive, Mr Craig Moule, and its outgoing of its homes for social rent, and 50% at market rent, chairman, Mr Jonathan Lander, yesterday. It was a and it plans to build hundreds of homes over the next deeply unsatisfactory meeting. Basically, it had promised few years—thousands, I hope, before too long. to build 50 affordable houses a year, but it got nowhere As my hon. Friend reminded the House, after world near that. It had no clear plan or strategy to achieve the war two, social housing was built at a rate of well over target. I am afraid the outgoing chairman of the board 100,000 homes a year. The crisis today is just as bad as clearly did not take the meeting seriously. In fact, his it was then, and we need that scale of ambition to attitude was patronising. If he had said, “I hear what deliver such a programme again. There is no time to you say, Mr Francois” one more time, I think I would lose. have screamed. There is a governance issue at Sanctuary. It is badly 4.27 pm run and badly governed. It is not properly accountable Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): I draw to the tenants it serves, which is why it was slated by the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of “Dispatches” a few months ago. My plea to the Minister Members’Financial Interests,and I thank the hon. Member 457 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 458 for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) for rent. Shelter reports that a third of low-income renters securing this debate. I have spent much of my working are struggling to the extent that they have to borrow life taking an interest in this core topic, and after money to pay their rent and keep a roof over their becoming a Member of Parliament, housing has continued heads. In those circumstances, putting money aside to to be a passion of mine. I have been involved with the save for a deposit so they can eventually own their own housing sector since I served on a planning committee home is completely unrealistic. There is a massive job for 12 years, and then as leader of Derbyshire County ahead of us to replenish the depleted housing stock in Council and director of a housing association. As an this country and I am pleased to see that, after many MP, I serve on the Housing, Communities and Local years of stagnation, there is now significant house Government Committee, and I chair the all-party group building in my constituency, particularly on brownfield for SME house builders. In both roles, I have had the sites. Very few, however, have affordable housing in pleasure of working with people from across the private them—or, as I would like to call it, council housing. and social housing sectors. In particular, my hon. Friend That is because permissions were all granted some time the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has made ago and the developers have used rules brought in under fantastic progress in championing self-build homes, and the coalition Government to plead poverty and tell us I hope he has continued success in that area. that the requirement to build affordable homes means Another area of success can be seen in the excellent they cannot maintain their 20% profit margins. As a work of Northampton Partnership Homes. Its chairman, result, there is no affordable housing being built on just David Latham, and chief executive, Mike Kay, have laid about any private development in my constituency. out ambitious plans for the future of social housing and Most developers sought release from those obligations tackling homelessness in my constituency, but national four or five years ago, but have only started building support from the Government, and local support, them in the past couple of years. It is clear that the will be required to get those plans advanced. I have affordable housing requirements were not what was been encouraged by the Government’s commitment of stopping them; it was greed. As my hon. Friend the £1.2 billion funding to tackle homelessness through to Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) 2020, and by the introduction of the Homelessness set out, it certainly has not harmed their profit margins. Reduction Act 2017. I know that has been hugely It is greed that has poisoned many of the public’s beneficial in Northampton, and I hope it can help to get opinion of the house building industry as a result of people back on their feet and with a roof over their the leasehold scandal. As the Chair of the Housing, head. Is there more to do? Of course there is, and I look Communities and Local Government Committee, my forward to hearing about that from the Minister. hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East I was pleased to meet Sir Edward Lister, in his then (Mr Betts), said about the voluntary scheme developers capacity of chairman of Homes England, at a recent introduced to deal with some of the injustices of the meeting of my all-party group. I was thoroughly impressed scandal, by what he said and I was encouraged by the approach “Given the evidence we heard from leaseholders during our he had been taking. It felt like there has been a shift and inquiry, we know it will be difficult for them to trust developers a change of culture at Homes England, or at least the and freeholders to deliver on such pledges.” start of a shift. The change needs to be seen primarily in The only way trust can be rebuilt is for there to be a full, money allocated by Ministers going to where it is needed independent public inquiry to get to the root of the most and by SME housebuilders getting that access. issues. How did developers first dream up the business The sector does not feel that it is anywhere near as model of commoditising people’shomes? How did lawyers straightforward yet as it should be for SMEs in particular. draw up the onerous terms? How did sales staff present, I am encouraged by the steps and the commitments or not present, the leases? How did the conveyancers, the Government have already taken in this area, but I surveyors and lenders all miss the implications of them? hope my right hon. Friend will make reference to, and How has the Government’s Help to Buy cash propped address how, money from Homes England will get not up the whole scam? only to the private and the social sectors, but to the The news this week that Persimmon has reached an shared ownership housing sector, a sector with a lot out of court settlement on an estate in Cardiff by giving more potential than it has yet been able to realise. the homeowners the freeholds and repaying the ground rent is welcome, but unfortunately that is just one estate, 4.30 pm in one city and one developer. There must be scores of identical scenarios around the country where developers Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): have not been forced to come to the table, so a proper Week in, week out, housing problems are the No.1 issue PPI-style compensation scheme is vital. As I have said in my constituency surgeries: a lack of affordable housing, in the past, this is the PPI of the house building industry poor living conditions, homelessness or landlords not and it needs to be treated as such. The admission by acting to rectify problems. We should not forget that at Persimmon that people did not know what they were the heart of this debate are real people facing very real buying should flag up huge alarm bells for every developer difficulties because over the past nine years the Government involved in leasehold that time is running out for them have failed to act to tackle the housing crisis. I have too to put this right. many people coming to see me who are sleeping on The National Leasehold Campaign has this week couches, in tents or in cars. That situation is becoming written to all developers involved in the scam to ask for far too regular in my surgeries. It is an absolute disgrace. the freeholds back. They should do it now and start to Since the Government came into power, rents have rebuild trust. As we know from the profit margins we become increasingly unaffordable, with private renters have heard about, they can well afford to do it. The fact spending on average 41% of their household income on that they are still building homes on estates where there 459 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 460

[Justin Madders] the right to buy, most councils, including even those that are building housing—Hounslow is building about is no leasehold now, but where people who bought them 400 new council homes a year—are losing council homes a year or two ago are still in leasehold properties, is an faster than they are building them. Right to buy homes absolutely injustice and a scandal. It needs to end. are often becoming private rented stock at three times It really is time that we had real action from the the council rent levels. Government, so that those already trapped in unfair Of course, we need house builders to be on our side. leases can expect to be released from them. I think we As others have mentioned so eloquently, they need to all agree that the situation is unfair and a significant address the leasehold issue. They also need to take injustice, but what are we going to do to force developers responsibility for the shocking faults in many new build to put things right? There are plenty of ideas out there properties. There is variation between developers, and about how we can do that for those stuck with existing they cannot hide behind the fact that there is a skills onerous and unfair leases. The Government may have shortage. There is one and they need to take responsibility lost control of the Chamber, but if they made proposals for it, but so do the Government, because much of the along the lines set out in my private Member’s Bill, for skills shortage in construction results from the fact that example, or in my party’s proposals, there is no doubt a large proportion of our construction workforce are that there would be more than enough support on both EU nationals and many are leaving, or are no longer sides of the House to get something on the statute book coming in the same numbers because of the uncertainty that would bring real, tangible change to help people that has been mentioned many times in this Chamber. and get many of the thousands who are stuck in toxic They do not feel welcome and do not have security as leases free of that obligation at last. Let us make a real workers in this country. difference to people’s lives. Let us pass these laws and I am sure that the Minister will respond with warm build the homes that we need to get this country moving and hopeful words, as Ministers always do. The new again. Government may even intend to do something significant about the housing crisis, although I suspect that they 4.35 pm will not be around for long enough to implement anything. Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): I I advise them, however, not to fall into having the thank the previous speakers, including my hon. Friend problems that some previous Ministers have had. This the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin includes the risk of unintended consequences of poorly Madders) for his excellent speech on leasehold issues. thought-out policies. I will mention two of them. He is such an expert—as ever—because he has such Let us have no more schemes, such as Help to Buy, a problem in his area, but that is not unique and we that just give discounts to those who can afford to buy have some of the same issues in London with flatted anyway. Let us not rush through planning changes such developments. as those to permitted development rights, which have I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham allowed the appalling chicken coops in old factories and and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) for the excellent offices, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member work that she has been doing on this important issue for Mitcham and Morden. and for securing this debate. I am not sure whether it is a relief to discuss something other than Brexit, but this 4.40 pm is as much, if not more, of a crisis, certainly for those Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I thank who are affected. my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden In my maiden speech, I referred to my forebears, who (Siobhain McDonagh) for securing the debate through recognised the importance of good-quality housing for the Backbench Business Committee. She is right to people’swellbeing, lives and, I have to say,their productivity highlight these issues. Surely, in this world of inequality, in their factory.My forebears built good-quality,affordable individuals should not be lining their own pockets with housing until the state took on that responsibility. From millions of pounds in bonuses taken from taxpayers’ the ’40s onwards, Governments of both persuasions money. Our focus needs to be on all our people, not just built tens of thousands of council homes a year to the few. Other Members raised the issue of leasehold. I ensure that the British people were adequately housed, invite the Minister to solve the crisis by adopting our but we have been walking away from that in the last 10 or approach to leasehold. more years. A home is at the heart of our lives. It is the foundation For most of my political life, I was a councillor in on which we grow up and raise our own families—the Hounslow. Even in outer London until about 10 years bedrock for our dreams and aspirations. It helps us to ago, a family on an ordinary income could afford to buy belong and shapes who we are and what we do. Yet, as their own home, so they did not need social rented others have said, we have a housing crisis in our country. housing. They did not put additional pressure on council We all know it, but successive Ministers seem to have housing. Since house prices have increased, however, had little motivation to do anything about it. There has people need a household income of £72,000 in Hounslow been a steady rise in homelessness, in rough sleeping to buy even a two-bedroom flat, yet the average household and in hidden homelessness—people or families who income is £40,000. are considered homeless but whose situation is not We need 1.2 million new council and social rented visible—either on the streets or in official statistics, with homes in this country because that is the number of those forced into the world of sofa surfing, living in make- households on the housing needs register. That does not shift rooms in overcrowded dwellings, or maybe even in count people who are not disabled and working-age a car. That was also highlighted by my hon. Friend the adults who have to rent. The number of people in that Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders). category has gone up 100% in just over 10 years. Under It is not a situation fit for 21st-century Britain. 461 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 462

When Labour left office, housing was at the heart of need help, and they truly set an example of what can be our decision making: we had just pulled the country achieved with vision and passion. Any Government back from the cliff edge of the global recession; we had could learn much from both those organisations. just switched funding from other Departments to deliver Ultimately, this comes back to the availability of the biggest investment in social housing in a generation; housing stock. We cannot provide people with decent, and we had just protected people’s homes with Labour’s affordable homes if we simply do not have the stock. We mortgage rescue scheme, which, along with other actions, need to build, and build fast. However, we cannot meant that repossessions were over a third lower than in compromise on quality or affordability. It means very 1991, when Tory inaction led to 75,000 homes being little for thousands of new homes to spring up in an repossessed. Over the whole 13 years that Labour spent area if the people who live in that area cannot afford in power, home ownership soared. Since then the number them. of home-owning households has fallen under the Tories. Rental costs should not account for two thirds of Under Labour, the number rose by over 1 million. tenants’ incomes, and it is on social housing that we House building grew. We built almost 2 million homes. must focus to address the housing crisis. Labour has After years of high homelessness under the Tories, already made a commitment to stop the sell-off of Labour cut it by 62%. We brought over 1 million homes 50,000 social rented homes a year by suspending the up to standard as part of our decent homes programme. right to buy and to transform the planning system with Since 2010, however, the number of new social rented a new duty to deliver affordable homes to make more homes has fallen by over 95%, and we are now building land available more cheaply. Councils are not adequately 30,000 fewer social rented homes each year; house staffed to oversee planning applications, and the industry building still has not recovered to the level it was at does not have the skills and innovation to deliver what before the global financial crisis; the overall level of we need. Labour will ensure that both councils and the home ownership has fallen since 2010, from 67% to 64% industry have what they require. last year; average private rents have risen by £1,900 a Everyone should have a safe place that they can call year; and—something that should shame us all—in the home, but that is so often not the case. A young person sixth biggest economy in the world, we have seen rough may not be able to return to the family home because he sleeping more than double over the past nine years. or she is at risk of harm. An older person may not be After nearly a decade of failure, it is clear that the able to go upstairs safely and may therefore need a Conservatives have no credible plan to build the number different type of accommodation. A survivor of domestic of homes we need. Labour will draw a line under the violence may need somewhere safe to rebuild his or her failure of the past and put building new homes at the life. A family may be sleeping in a car because it is heart of government. For the first time ever, a Labour cleaner,and perhaps safer,than temporary accommodation. Government will establish a fully-fledged department I am thinking of some of the destroyed families referred for housing. Ministers will be challenged at each step by to by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham a new Office for Budget Responsibility-style office for (Stephen Timms). housing delivery, which will be an independent auditor Successive Tory Governments have failed all those of house building projections, delivery plans and progress people. It is time that we had a Labour Government against Government targets.Wewill set the new department putting housing front and centre, putting right the a target of building at least 1 million new, genuinely failures and sorting out the crisis that so many face affordable homes in England over 10 years, including a today. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and major council house building programme. We will bring Morden said, we have done it before and we will do it forward more land for development at a lower price, by again. setting a new role for the Homes and Communities Agency as the Government’s main housing delivery 4.47 pm body, and we will protect the green belt. We will introduce a revolutionary new type of housing, The Minister for Housing (Ms Esther McVey): I thank “first buy homes”, with housing costs for new build the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain homes benchmarked at a third of local average incomes McDonagh) for bringing the debate to the Floor of the so that homes are priced at what local people can House and I thank everyone who has contributed to it. afford, not what makes developers the most money. We There has been much agreement across the Floor on will also introduce a tough “first dibs” rule on new what we would like to happen, and, more importantly, housing developments to give local people confidence what we do not like the look of and is not the way that homes built in their area can be for them and their forward. None of us can agree with the exorbitant pay families. Developers will be forced to market new homes packets that some people have received. We are also all to local first-time buyers first, not to overseas buyers or agreed that—in the hon. Lady’s words—the market is those with no connection to the area. We will act on not working. That is right: it is not. We might have those 750,000 empty plots that are sitting doing nothing different ways of resolving that problem, but we would and bring them into use. say that, if there are not enough houses in the market, it Some may question what exactly we can do to tackle is not working. Various implementation schemes should homelessness. Last week, I visited St Mungo’s and operate for a short period, until we have ensured that learned about its initiatives to help reduce the impact of there are more houses in the market, and that is what we homelessness, including “no second night out”. I also are doing. visited AKT—formerly the Albert Kennedy Trust—and It has been a scandal how fewer houses have been heard directly from some young LGBT people who had built decade after decade, but we are turning that around. experienced homelessness and who told me what housing Let us look at some of the figures. We have delivered support they needed. Organisations such as St Mungo’s more than 1.3 million new homes since 2010, including and AKT do excellent work in supporting people who more than 430,000 affordable homes. In the most recent 463 British House Building Industry5 SEPTEMBER 2019 British House Building Industry 464

[Ms Esther McVey] is happening with Sanctuary Housing. We have a Green Paper setting out the principles that will underpin year, we have delivered more than 220,000 additional a new fairer deal for social housing residents: safe and homes, the highest level in all but one of the last decent homes, swift and effective resolution of disputes, 31 years. The latest indicators show that we are on track empowering residents and ensuring their voices are heard. to meet our 2015 manifesto commitment to add 1 million Although we talk about the industry, we really want more homes by 2020. to support the people who are living in those houses; we Those who have talked about homelessness will be are talking about homes, safety and security. We do not heartened to learn that, for the first time since 2010, the want people in temporary accommodation. We do not annual rough sleeping statistics have shown a decrease want people to be homeless; we want them in permanent in the number of those sleeping rough. That reflects the accommodation, and that can only be brought about by Government’s substantial investment and support over fixing the market and making sure we build more the last few years. But what we want to see is the right homes, which is what we are doing. houses being built; choice in who is building them; and an SME market, not just a market of the top four or Mike Amesbury: Weaver Vale Housing Trust covers five in the building sector.Weas a Conservative Government my area as well as the Minister’s. It has real concerns want to bring back the SMEs; 30% were lost during the about the lack of clarity on funding going forward. She financial crash and never came back. We want those mentioned social housing; the key is to build more businesses back and, more importantly, as my hon. social and affordable housing. There is not clarity at Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) present, so we are not building the numbers of homes said, we want there to be the right to build: we want to that we need. be able to make sure there are not just a few companies, building thousands of homes, because there could be Ms McVey: Weare and will be building more affordable thousands of individuals making their own homes. homes. We have put in a significant amount—billions of That is what we are about: choice and opportunity as pounds—for affordable homes and have also removed we go forward. the cap so councils are able to build homes, too. That is what we have to do. We are a party that believes in We have said we would deliver 300,000 homes by the choice. I come from a council house. I believed in the mid-2020s. That is my ambition and the ambition of the right to buy in the 1980s to make sure people could be Conservative party. How will we go about it? I have said in charge of their own homes. Homes were not being that we have been delivering more each year, but we repaired properly. People bought them and looked after want to bring together a centre of excellence for construction them. Now we have to make sure we build more homes, and engineering in the north of the country. We want to so there is a virtuous cycle and there are more homes. have a global leader for construction and engineering, We are a nation that believes in home ownership. We bringing forth those technological solutions we have need to enable people to have their own homes. We been talking about such as modern methods of construction know that 80% of people want their own homes. What and environmental innovations in the housing market. are we doing? We want to offer an array of choice and However, let me pick up on some of the things we do support. As my hon. Friend the Member for South not want that many Members talked about. I want to Norfolk said, this is also about the ability of individuals work with the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Sir to build their own homes. George Howarth), the hon. Members for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) and for Brentford Alex Cunningham: Home ownership under the Tories and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and my hon. Friend the in the past nine years has dropped from 67% to 64%. Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer). We How is the Minister going to put that right? do not want to see the misuse of leaseholds and the exorbitant costs people are paying. We have brought a Ms McVey: Through an array of support. Obviously, consultation forward. We are going to stop the misuse I have been heartened by the fact that first-time ownership and the bad practices in that field, and we can work on has increased for the first time in 11 years. People are that together from both sides of the House, because we getting on the housing ladder. We have helped more should not have that and we do not want it, and we have than 500,000 people through Help to Buy and the right already started on that course to make sure it does not to buy, and we intend to continue to do that. happen. Mr Bacon: May I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention Sir George Howarth: I am grateful for that response. to the £25 billion a year housing benefit budget, which Will the right hon. Lady therefore join me in condemning represents 3% of all public spending? It will be £0.25 trillion companies such as Redrow for being unwilling to even over the next 10 years, and it has been £0.5 trillion over discuss what residents want? the past 20 years or so. The permanent secretary in her former Department, Peter Schofield, who used to be the Ms McVey: Companies and businesses should work director of communities in the Ministry of Housing, towards what their purchasers and customers want. Communities and Local Government, came with us to Therefore, they should be listening if they want to be Berlin to look at more creative and innovative ways of the best company they can possibly be. Equally, we are delivering housing. May I suggest that my right hon. listening as Members of Parliament. We have all shone Friend talks to the Department for Work and Pensions a light on that bad practice and we will be taking that about trying to use some of that housing benefit budget issue forward. —admittedly, it is helping some housing associations, We are also looking at what housing associations are but it is also propping up private landlords—for doing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh capital investment in a greater quantity and quality of and Wickford (Mr Francois) has brought forward what housing stock? 465 British House Building Industry 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 466

Ms McVey: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to Skerne River: Discover Brightwater Project hear that that is exactly what we intend to do. How do That this House we enable people to get on the housing ladder and to be Motion made, and Question proposed, do now adjourn.—( .) homeowners in an array of homes they would like and James Morris need? How do we best use housing benefits to enable that to happen? As I have said, we have built more 5 pm homes in this last year than in every one of the last 31 years. We are correcting a market that has been Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): I want to take this undeniably not supported for the last 31 years. We are time to talk about a heritage and environmental project getting it right. We have built more houses. Where we in my constituency that will over the next few years see the misuse of leaseholds, we will get rid of that. We restore, reveal and celebrate life along the River Skerne. will be supporting people with an array of opportunities. The river flows through the length of my constituency before reaching the River Tees at Hurworth Place after Ruth Cadbury: With due respect to the Minister, I flowing through Darlington. Unlike the vast majority think that the hon. Member for South Norfolk was of rivers, it flows inland instead of running to the sea. talking about the housing benefit bill, which is not The Skerne is not widely known, except perhaps to local relevant to people who can buy their own homes. He people. It is not the Thames, the Wear, the Tees or the was saying that that money would be far better spent on Tyne, and it is not the Severn or the Tweed. In parts it building affordable social rent homes for people who resembles a stream and can be seen in geographical will never be able to buy their own homes. Meanwhile, terms as a tributary of the Tees,but the Skerne’ssignificance the Help to Buy programme has simply increased the can be measured in other ways. price of flats in London. The Skerne is the only river to appear on the back of a five-pound note. The note in question was issued in Ms McVey: I did understand what my hon. Friend 1993 to celebrate the success of the railway pioneer the Member for South Norfolk was talking about. He George Stephenson and includes an image of Locomotion talked about the £24 billion that was going into housing No. 1 travelling across the Skerne bridge over the river. benefit and asked how we could best use that to help to The bridge is almost 200 years old and is the oldest build more homes, which could include social and council continuously used railway bridge in the world. Historic homes. I understand that, but at the same time, we have England called the bridge irreplaceable, along with the to ensure that more people can get on the housing ladder. Angel of the North and Holy Island off Lindisfarne. We are at the start of building 300,000 homes a year. The bridge is in the neighbouring constituency of my That is not just about the homes; it is about reshaping hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), an industry. At the same time, we want to be a global but the early trains that crossed the Skerne at this point visionary centre of expertise in building. Let us think first travelled from Heighington Crossing in my constituency about all the jobs that that will provide, if we have the of Sedgefield, of which more later. commitment to do it together. That is why we will have That link to the industrial revolution is the reason a centre of excellence in the north of England to look at why the Discover Brightwater project is necessary. The the best ways forward for construction and engineering. project is a £3.3 million landscape partnership programme That is what a determined Conservative party is going supported by the National Lottery Heritage Fund. To to do. We are going to build the right houses, champion date, about £7.6 billion has been spent on improving home ownership and make a centre of excellence for landscapes and preserving heritage in programmes like building. this around the country.The Discover Brightwater project focuses on improving the natural and cultural environment 4.59 pm endeavours to work with community groups to discover and reveal the history of the area, improve existing Siobhain McDonagh: I thank everyone who has environments and create new nature reserves for the contributed to the debate. In the few seconds I have left, benefit of wildlife and land users. The Brightwater I want to ask that we ban the word “affordable” in the partnership includes Durham Wildlife Trust, Durham context of housing. “Affordable” means 80% of market County Council, Darlington Borough Council, the rent, but the vast proportion of our constituents could Environment Agency, the Tees River Trust, the local never afford 80% of market rent. Let us talk about access forum, and the Architectural and Archaeological social housing rent and owner occupation, but let us Society of Durham and Northumberland—known as also clearly address the question of what is affordable, “Arch & Arch”. because the “affordable housing” is not affordable. “Skerne” is an ancient word, which is believed to Question put and agreed to. originate from the old Norse word “skir” meaning Resolved, “bright” and “clean”, hence the name of the Discover That this House notes with concern the ongoing shortage of Brightwater project. Many years ago, the Skerne was housing and the housing crisis across England; further notes with full of fens and wetlands, hence the name of my concern the number of families in temporary accommodation constituency and the nearest town of Sedgefield. The and the number of people rough sleeping; acknowledges that wetlands still exist in part, but land has been reclaimed there are over one million households on housing waiting lists; for farming since the start of the industrial revolution recognises the Government’s target to build 300,000 new homes and water was pumped away due to the growth of the each year; acknowledges that this target has been missed in each year that the Government has been in office and that the number coal industry. Experts believe that the water table fell by of homes constructed by housebuilding companies that are deemed as much as 70 metres, so the fens and wetlands are not affordable is insufficient; notes the pay ratios between executives what they used to be. Names of ancient settlements and employees in FTSE 350 housebuilding companies; and calls reveal what the area was like centuries ago. The name on the Government to tackle the housing crisis as an urgent priority. Sedgefield is a case in point, as is Bradbury and the Isle, 467 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 468 Project Project [Phil Wilson] On the opposite bank from the old colliery is the north-east technology park—NETPark—which is one Great Isle farm, and the term “carr” meaning a boggy of the country’spremier science,engineering and technology area or wood in old Norse, which is why we have parks for the commercialisation of cutting-edge research Preston Carr and Mordon Carr. and development. It is home to 32 innovative companies, The Brightwater Project is important because it wants providing over 450 highly skilled jobs. By 2025, NETPark to manage the local environment and restore the Skerne will be not only the destination of choice but the to some of its past glory. There are plans to create destination of necessity for universities and blue chip fenland covering 50 acres, which would include the companies. existing Bishop fen near Bishop Middleham and Hardwick This area on the banks of the Skerne has the remains Park, and the Woodham fen near Newton Aycliffe. The of a once great industry on one side and flourishing idea behind creating a managed fen is to spread biodiversity, future industries on the other. It is the centre of the mitigate climate change and attract tourism. There is constituency. also a potential plan to significantly increase the size of the fen to create a Great North fen. Since the end of the As part of the Discover Brightwater project, there industrial revolution and the coal-mining era, the landscape have been archaeological digs involving 126 dedicated has wanted to return to the way it once was, and that volunteers on the outskirts of Sedgefield, where remains should be allowed to happen, but obviously in a managed of a Roman village and pottery have been discovered—the way that has the support of landowners, Government first Roman pottery to be discovered in the north-east. agencies and local people. The project is not only about The Discover Brightwater team has been working with the past. It is about the present and revealing the DigVentures of Barnard Castle at the East Park Roman natural environment and heritage for residents living in site in Sedgefield and at the ruins of the Bishop’s castle this part of south-east Durham, and it is about the in Bishop Middleham a couple of miles away. The future. It is about making south-east Durham a place to discovery of further structures at the site of the Bishop’s visit. There is so much to see and enjoy but, at present, castle, which was used by the bishops of Durham, has so much remains hidden, with so many stories untold. led archaeologists to believe there were once more substantial buildings than previously thought. This is Let me take the House on a journey along the 25 miles making archaeologists think again about what was originally of the river, which finds its source near Trimdon, the at the site of the castle. village where I was brought up, and then flows inland to Hurworth Place, which is also in my constituency and is From Bishop Middleham and Sedgefield, the Skerne where the Skerne enters the River Tees. The River flows through Bradbury and the Isle, an area of wetland Skerne starts in the magnesium limestone escarpment through which the A1(M) and the east coast main line between Trimdon and Trimdon Grange in the north of travel between Durham and Darlington. It is the geographic my constituency, just a few hundred metres from the heart of my constituency. Because of the wetland, the 12th-century St Mary Magdalene church on Trimdon motorway actually floats on the land. village green, which is the spot where my predecessor, From there, the Skerne travels past Newton Aycliffe Tony Blair, made his “people’s princess” speech in 1997 and through Ketton, an ancient area of my constituency following the tragic death of Diana. that is a broad valley created by the small Skerne river. During the 19th century, the population of Trimdon One feature of the Ketton landscape is a 17th-century expanded rapidly with the opening of the colliery. The packhorse bridge, which stands alone because centuries importance of the industry to the area helped turn the ago farmers straightened the river, moving its flow from Skerne from a bright water to the seventh most polluted under the bridge. It stands alone as a listed structure. river in Europe by the 1970s. That is why the Discover There is written evidence of a bridge at the site since 1294. Brightwater project is vital to bringing the river back to The area is also famous for the Durham ox, a massive its former beauty. beast that in 1810 sold for £1,000 and weighed 271 stone. The Trimdons grew from the coal industry and supplied It was a bit of a celebrity in its day and travelled the industrial revolution, with collieries at Trimdon 3,000 miles around the country to be exhibited. Grange, where a pit disaster in 1882 killed 74 men and boys, and at Trimdon and Deaf Hill, as well as a The Discover Brightwater project has improved the foundry at a place called, strangely enough, Trimdon River Skerne in the Ketton area from Aycliffe to Foundry. Skerningham, with the help of volunteers and local communities. The project also wants to improve access From there, the River Skerne flows to the east and to Ketton Valley, so that people can enjoy the beauty of Hurworth Burn reservoir before meandering south-west, the landscape and the heritage of the Skerne and learn where it enters fertile fields and farmland. The river of the many local historical stories that go unheard. flows between the village of Fishburn and the market town of Sedgefield. Fishburn is where my mother was From Ketton, we reach Newton Aycliffe, which is the born, and my father worked down Fishburn colliery largest conurbation in my constituency. It is a new town from the ’40s until its closure in 1973. A coke works also with a population of around 28,000 people, and is home operated in the village from 1919 to ’86. to the Discover Brightwater headquarters. Newton Aycliffe business park is the biggest in the north-east of England, At their peak, the collieries in the Skerne river area with 10,000 to 12,000 employees. —at the Trimdons, Deaf Hill, Fishburn, Dean Bank, Bishop Middleham and Mainsforth—employed almost Newton Aycliffe also played a crucial part during the 10,000 people. Again, the growth of the villages led to second world war. It was the site of a Royal Ordnance pollution of the river, and phosphates used by local factory known as ROF Aycliffe. Opened in 1941, at a farmers washed from the farmland into the river, causing cost of £7 million, the munitions factory was home to further pollution. the famous Aycliffe Angels, one of whom was my 469 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 470 Project Project grandmother. The 17,000 strong workforce of almost river that I knew little about before he started, but I now entirely female employees worked around the clock know a great deal about it—and about the hon. Gentleman’s turning out 700 million bullets, as well as shells and life and roots. I am very pleased to be here talking about mines for the allied war effort. Their work was dangerous, the subject today. with numerous accidents and deaths at the factory, I have been to Sedgefield because my son is at Durham including one explosion that killed eight girls. However, University and we stayed in Sedgefield only recently. If those incidents went unrecorded and unacknowledged I had only known about the pub, I would have gone for because of the secrecy of the site. The Aycliffe Angels a beer. I would say that most people know Sedgefield finally received the recognition they deserved for their only for the racecourse, but now we will be talking commitment and bravery in 2000, with a memorial about the river. service and a permanent memorial, which now rests in As Minister for arts, heritage and tourism, it is of real Newton Aycliffe town centre. interest to me to talk about the Discover Brightwater However, the factory’s essential and invaluable work project, which will restore an important area of the produced pollutants that ended up in the Skerne. north-east and bring wealth and benefits to the surrounding On the very edge of the business park sits Heighington communities. Although it is still at a relatively early Crossing and beside it a building that was once a pub stage, it highlights how important projects that build on called the Locomotion, now closed for several years. tourism and heritage can be to the local economy. The pub was called the Locomotion to commemorate Let me say a little about tourism, which is a huge the fact that it was at Heighington Crossing in September industry for the nation. As Minister, I see it as one of 1825 that George Stephenson assembled Locomotion my roles to make sure it becomes even more important, No. 1 to enter service on the Stockton and Darlington and I know I have support on the Government Benches railway. The route would eventually take the latest in that respect. Tourism already contributes £68 billion invention on the Skerne bridge over the Skerne river, directly to the UK economy each year. Inbound tourism marking the start of the railway age, which would has risen in the past three years, and in 2018 more than eventually be celebrated on the reverse of the £5 note. 37 million people visited the country and spent a The pub the Locomotion is the original ticket office and phenomenal £22 billion. That is not to be overlooked. waiting room. The original very short platform is still Visitors are spread far and wide throughout the country there today, and the route of the railway line from and travel to all parts of our nation—all regions and Heighington down into Darlington is still used. areas—so tourism is a good way to spread wealth. On the other side of the railway line, Hitachi has built Whether they go to England’s coast, to historic cities, to its new train manufacturing facility. From the original the highlands of Scotland, to the glens of Antrim or to Locomotion No. 1 to the latest high-speed intercity castles in Wales, there is all sorts to attract them. Azuma train, train manufacturing has come full circle, Indeed, there are also our natural landscapes, whether it back to the birthplace of the railways. is the Somerset levels in my constituency of Taunton The length of the River Skerne is steeped in history. Deane, the Yorkshire dales or the North York moors Much of it might be unknown, but the Brightwater national park just beyond the boundaries of the hon. project provides the opportunity for that history to be Gentleman’s constituency. known. It also provides the opportunity for the river to Tourism creates jobs in every local authority in the return to its original meaning of “bright water”. There country, and the money that visitors spend directly are signs of that happening, with sightings of otters and supports local economies and benefits communities. It trout in parts of the river where they have not been seen also creates great opportunities for investment and growth. for a long time. Indeed, in the north-east the benefits have already been After decades of the industrial revolution, the landscape felt, to a great extent: international visits have hit new is starting to return to how it once was. Obviously, that heights in the past five years, and visitors have spent a process must be managed. However, the benefits of great deal of money, with £300 million spent in 2018. such a project speak for themselves: biodiversity, the That is not insignificant. mitigation of climate change, the potential for tourism, I am of course fully aware of the importance of the the preservation of our heritage, with benefits for the UK’s unique and far-reaching heritage offer and the key local area and the country and the coming together of role it plays in attracting visitors up and down the our communities as Brightwater engages with them. country, helping to drive tourism. Visitors travel in their The Skerne has perhaps been neglected for centuries, thousands to see outstanding heritage sites such as but it could now be about to tell its story again. I wish Fountains Abbey and Belsay Hall—both in the north- the Discover Brightwater project the best of luck in its east—or Wells cathedral and Glastonbury tor, both endeavour. down in Somerset. There is a plethora of wonderful sites to choose from. 5.13 pm Heritage makes a big contribution to the economy: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, the heritage sector alone brings in £29 billion of the Culture, Media and Sport (Rebecca Pow): It is an honour £68 billion that tourism attracts, and it employs 450,000 to respond to an Adjournment debate under your auspices people. Heritage tourists made more than 230 million again, Dame Eleanor. visits in 2018. I am well aware of the part that heritage I thank the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) plays, and we heard from the hon. Gentleman lots of so much for bringing the debate to the Chamber. It examples of how heritage is part of the Discover struck me how much we learn about our nation and Brightwater project. our colleagues through the things that are said in this If one builds around heritage, pride rises in the Chamber.I was fascinated to hear all about the Skerne river. community.I recently responded to a debate in Westminster The hon. Gentleman took us on a great journey down a Hall about Hull, which has been a city of culture. 471 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 472 Project Project [Rebecca Pow] know from experience because I come from the Somerset levels area—one of the world’s most famous international All the investment in the culture and heritage in that wetland sites. The area is really popular for tourists city has meant that pride in the city has risen, and three because of all the nature and wildlife it attracts. We out of every four people in Hull are now very proud to have already heard that the otters and trout have returned live there. Apparently, that was not the case a few years to the River Skerne, which is absolutely wonderful, ago. A lot of that is because of the work to build on the especially when one thinks of how polluted it was projects in which people have been engaged. before. There has been a real turnaround and I think it For all those reasons, I was very interested to hear will be a big draw. about the Discover Brightwater project, to which the I gather that the project will also open up better National Lottery Heritage Fund, with which my access, as well as cycle routes, walkways and walking Department enjoys a close relationship, committed £2.64 routes, all of which I am sure will be popular. For lots of million of spending in spring 2018. As we have heard, those reasons, I commend the Discover Brightwater the project brings together a partnership of local bodies project and other similar examples around the country, and charities, all working to restore and reveal the because they build on strengths such as heritage, working considerably rich industrial and agricultural heritage with communities and developing our already attractive along the length of the river. I was really interested to areas, and make a great deal more of them. Tourism is a hear about the collieries and that side of things, as well growing industry, with the number of international as the armaments factory and the archaeological digs. visitors set to rise, and we need to be ready for them I wish to touch on a couple of the treasures that are with a good offer once we attract them here. That offer already in this patch. One is the Stockton and Darlington has to be of the highest calibre, and that means not just railway, which was the first public railway in the world the attractions, but the accommodation—places for the to use steam locomotives. It was opened in 1825 and people to stay, just as I stayed in Sedgefield—as well as connected the collieries with the port of Stockton-on-Tees. the provenance of the food and drink. All these things It crossed the River Skerne at Darlington on the impressive can be built into the project, together with working on Skerne bridge, which is the oldest continuously operated the prized landscape. The River Skerne project offers all railway bridge in existence—I have definitely learned this potential. something there. It was indeed on a stamp, and because The £40 million Discover England fund, which was the bridge was on the stamp, so too was the river, so it is launched in 2016, demonstrated that this Government already quite famous. are committed to investing in the country’s visitor offer, Then there is that amazing beast, the Durham ox, making it as easy as possible for travellers to discover which we have heard about—an early example of the the variety and range that England has to offer. I will shorthorn cattle breed that helped to establish breed give a couple of examples. The England’s Coast project standards in the dairy industry. This matter is close to allows visitors to build itineraries and experiences based my heart, as I was brought up on a dairy farm where my on England’s glorious coastal offer. We have a fabulous father bred Ayrshire cattle, which I used to show with coast and fabulous beaches. In the north-east, that him at the local shows. Such examples are a really includes the Durham heritage coast—I am sure the important part of our history that went on to influence hon. Gentleman knows it well—and the historic seaside our agricultural industry. The Discover Brightwater resorts of Redcar and Saltburn-by-the-Sea. The Discover programme will build on that project to help interpret England fund is not the only way the Government have and share those stories, and I think it will be very invested in tourism in the north-east either. Earlier this popular. year, the coastal communities fund awarded £1.3 million I was pleased to learn about the wider community to the Durham heritage coast partnership to create a involvement and traineeships that are part of this project, visitor and events hub at Crimdon beach. including 20 short heritage skills courses and lots of Those projects, and indeed all those supported by the community-led research. All these things chime very Discover England fund and other funds in the past well with the tourism sector deal that we launched three years, illustrate the Government’s commitment to recently. I will mention that a bit more in a minute. tourism in regions all around the country. I particularly As a great lover of the great outdoors, I was especially welcome the Chancellor’s announcement yesterday,which glad to hear that the project will open up access to green I was pleased to play a small part in, of another spaces. I was also pleased to hear about the community £5.5 million for the Discover England fund, which will involvement. Of course, access to green open space enable it to carry on for the next year and, we hope, for provides rewards for our mental health and physical a long time into the future. These projects demonstrate wellbeing. There is a lot of data to show that access to how well they work and what they can generate for the green space can really help in those areas. The project is economy. near some quite deprived areas, which often do not have The Chancellor also announced an excellent deal such good access to green space, so I see it as being yesterday for our arm’s length bodies, which include the really beneficial there. Arts Council, which dispenses funds around the country In a world where sustainability and the environment for projects, and all our museums and galleries, all are increasingly important, I was glad to hear about the of which play a part in our visitor and heritage offer wider environmental benefits of the project, particularly and attract many visitors. That was a really welcome with regard to improving water quality. We heard how announcement in the spending round yesterday. terribly polluted the river was before, and that the The tourism sector deal, which was launched in June, situation has really been turned around. I was very is a clear demonstration of the Government’scommitment interested to hear about the former wetland and the to the tourism industry and its potential for boosting work to alleviate flooding and strengthen the nature-rich productivity and ensuring that we are ready for the habitats. All this work will be a draw to visitors, as I extra visitors we are expecting. It was the 10th sector deal 473 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Skerne River: Discover Brightwater 474 Project Project that the Government have announced, and it includes a order at this time of day, after the Adjournment debate, raft of measures that the whole industry came to agree but I wonder whether you have had any notice of a were important to grow the industry. Those measures possible statement at some point by the Home Secretary include a £250,000 conference centre broadband to explain why the Prime Minister is currently attending competition so that events and conference centres can a clearly party political electioneering stunt in Wakefield bid for money to improve the connectivity of their with what appears to be upwards of 50 police officers conference centres. That is a big and growing sector surrounding him for the benefit of the media and the with a lot of opportunity. I am not sure if there are any Prime Minister’s clearly political speech. This is clearly opportunities on the River Skerne for a conference or a entirely inappropriate. centre, but you never know. I am a member of the Home Affairs Committee and The sector deal also includes an ambition to build we have regularly raised concerns about the lack of another 130,000 hotel rooms across the UK and to police resources. Many of us are often pictured with build in apprenticeships and mentoring schemes with police officers—I am sure you have been yourself, Madam business, all of which will help to strengthen this and Deputy Speaker—when they are doing hard work in make the whole industry increasingly professional. I our communities, as they should be. Serious questions was pleased, therefore, to hear from the hon. Member need to be asked about the use of police time in this way about the skills and the training in relation to the and the potential politicisation of the police. I wonder Skerne project. It will be very important to upskilling whether you have had any notice of the Home Secretary locals and keeping them in the area to earn their living. coming to explain why on earth this is going on. To sum up, tourism is vital to the UK economy, and of course heritage is a big part of that, as well as all the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I things we have mentioned today, such as landscapes, thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. It is a access, places to stay—all the suggestions and ideas somewhat unusual point in the proceedings for a point going into this project, not least the Durham Ox. I do of order, but I understand why he wished to bring it not know if that is going to be a museum about the ox forward at this moment, its having presumably only just or a model being built of the ox, but I will be fascinated come to his attention. I have had no notice of any to find out what happens. I really hope that the hon. forthcoming statement or debate from any Ministers on Member keeps the Department posted about how it is this matter. However, the Home Secretary and Home going. I wish him all the best of luck with it. Such Office Ministers are certainly very careful to make sure projects always deserve a champion, and the House of that the House is always kept informed about matters Commons is just the right place to raise it, to get a bit of concerning security—security for Members of Parliament, attention for the project and to entice more people up security for Ministers, and also, one would presume, the there. As the arts, heritage and tourism Minister, I security of the Prime Minister. I am sure that if any would like to commend it and celebrate it. We need to further explanation about what is currently happening celebrate and showcase these great things about our is required, Ministers will keep the House informed. nation that will benefit the economy, bring local I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy. communities together, make them proud of where they live and make the rest of us proud of our glorious UK. Question put and agreed to. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I 5.30 pm apologise for the unusual nature of raising a point of House adjourned.

153WH 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 154WH

It is important to ensure that fake news and the desire Westminster Hall for a quick headline do not undermine the public’s trust and confidence in this important area of research and clinical practice. In a survey conducted for the inquiry, Thursday 5 September 2019 91% of people with heart and circulatory diseases said that the public should be well-informed about how AI is used in healthcare. Some 90% believe it to be the [IAN PAISLEY in the Chair] responsibility of the NHS to inform the public about current and potential uses of AI in healthcare, and 48% BACKBENCH BUSINESS of patients surveyed strongly support doctors using artificial intelligence technologies to assist them in Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare diagnosing and treating heart and circulatory diseases. Heart and circulatory diseases, including coronary heart disease, stroke and vascular dementia, affect millions 1.30 pm of families across the UK. The halving of deaths from Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I beg to move, heart and circulatory diseases since the 1970s has been a That this House has considered involvement of patients in the major health success for the UK. However,such conditions use of artificial intelligence in healthcare. still cause a quarter of all deaths in the UK and are the It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship largest cause of premature mortality, particularly in once again, Mr Paisley. I am delighted to have been deprived areas. Together, they make up the single biggest granted this important debate, and I am pleased to see a driver of health inequalities and cost the NHS in England number—particularly for a Thursday—of Members from at least £7.4 billion a year. As outlined in the long-term all parts of the House present to take part. I declare at plan, it is the single biggest area where the NHS can the outset that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary save lives over the next 10 years. group on heart and circulatory diseases. Earlier this In assessing the potential for AI, it is important to year, the APPG conducted an inquiry, with the support note the scale of heart and circulatory diseases in this of the British Heart Foundation, to better understand country. The British Heart Foundation, which provides patient perspectives on artificial intelligence. It found secretariat support to the APPG, reports that heart and huge potential for AI to transform the lives of those circulatory diseases still cause a quarter of all deaths in living with heart and circulatory diseases and a greater the UK, on average killing one person every three need for those affected to be included in discussions minutes. The number of people living with heart and about the development and adoption of new technologies. circulatory diseases also remains high, at 5.9 million in Before I go further, I want to speak briefly about England. There are more than 42,000 premature deaths what AI is. Put simply, AI is the term given to a set of from cardiovascular disease each year in the UK. We computer actions that mimic human intelligence. Our must therefore utilise the enormous potential of AI report outlines that what separates modern AI, such as across all areas to transform the way we prevent, diagnose, machine learning, from other types of computer program treat and support those living with or at risk from heart is that it can learn and improve at tasks. AI is particularly and circulatory diseases. strong at finding patterns and trends in data that are In my constituency of Crawley, 11,000 people were not obvious through human analysis. I have mentioned living with a heart and circulatory condition in 2017-18. machine learning, which is one type of AI. It is where Of those, 3,679 had coronary heart disease and 1,865 were algorithms—a set of rules that a computer uses to make living with stroke, 774 were living with heart failure and a calculation—are used to look for patterns in data, and 1,985 were living with atrial fibrillation. In addition, the computer then uses those patterns to make decisions. 16,682 constituents have been diagnosed with high blood It looks for patterns in many different types of data, pressure, including me, and 7,555 with diabetes. While from scrutinising images to analysing genomic data. those numbers mayseem high, the British Heart Foundation Every day, we interact with something that uses AI. tells me that according to the quality outcomes framework Whether it is entertainment, online shopping, wearable data, Crawley is ranked 548th out of the 650 UK devices, virtual assistants, chat bots or advertising, the parliamentary constituencies for the prevalence of use of AI is ubiquitous. Whether it is through faster or cardiovascular disease. more accurate diagnosis, more personalised treatment, In communities around the country, including Crawley, better targeting of demand, improvements in service one of the challenges of introducing AI into everyday planning and delivery or better predictions, AI has the practice in healthcare is its potential to exacerbate potential to touch all aspects of healthcare delivery and health inequalities. Age, ethnicity, and socioeconomic management. demographic factors can influence access to the best Our APPG’s report, “Putting patients at the heart technologies. Access to new technologies is relevant of artificial intelligence”, was launched in May this because AI is currently being implemented in consumer- year. It warns that the spread of misinformation risks facing technologies, such as smartphones, which can undermining public confidence in the use of AI in help manage adherence to blood pressure medication, healthcare. The APPG has therefore recommended that smart watches, which can track and analyse heart rates, policy makers, parliamentarians, the NHS, charities, and voice-activated assistants such as Alexa or Siri, healthcareprofessionalsandthehealthtechnologyindustry which can act as useful reminders to take medications. should seek to engage and involve patients in the design, As I mentioned, the APPG on heart and circulatory developmentanddiffusionof AI.If theydonot,developments diseases launched its report on AI earlier this year. Our in AI might not reflect the needs of the very people who group was grateful for the involvement and enthusiasm could benefit from it. of the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, 155WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 156WH

[Henry Smith] Social Care announced a review of the NHS health check service, which is offered to everyone between the who also took the time to speak at the report’s launch. ages of 40 and 74 to spot the early signs of major Given the number of people in Crawley who have heart conditions that cause early death, including stroke, kidney conditions, I wanted to keep local residents updated disease, heart disease and type 2 diabetes. about my work chairing the group. Shortly after the Although the NHS health check programme has report’s launch, I wrote in the Crawley & Horley Observer identified more than 700,000 people at high risk of about the importance of tackling such conditions and cardiovascular disease over the last five years and has reiterated the salience of the Department of Health and saved an estimated 500 lives each year, the Department Social Care ensuring that some of this Government’s of Health is right that there is potential for people to increased funding for our NHS is used to address the benefit even more from an enhanced tailored service. use of AI and its potential in the health service. The APPG’s survey of patients with heart and circulatory It was very much with that call in mind that, almost a diseases found that 64% had at least some awareness of month ago, I welcomed the Secretary of State’s the potential future uses of AI to diagnose and treat announcement that £250 million is to be spent on the heart and circulatory diseases. However, only 17% of new national artificial intelligence lab to improve the respondents were aware of any current uses.That represents health and lives of patients. The Department of Health a huge opportunity to inform patients about the and Social Care has said that the AI lab will bring opportunities of AI. together the industry’s best academics, specialists and People are becoming more and more wary about the technology companies. They will be working on some use of their personal data. From cold calls to unsubscribing of the biggest challenges in health and care, identifying from mass emails, there is increased caution from people the patients most at risk of conditions such as heart about giving up personal information. When it came to disease. That will allow for earlier diagnosis and cheaper, the APPG’s inquiry, however, 86% of respondents were more focused and personalised prevention. comfortable with their personal health data being used The new national artificial intelligence lab will sit to help better to diagnose medical conditions. Policy within NHSX, the new organisation that will oversee makers should feel confident that patients support the the digitisation of the health and care system in partnership use of AI in healthcare if it is done to improve health with the accelerated access collaborative. One of the key outcomes. recommendations of the APPG report is that NHSX Trust works both ways of course, and it is important should set up discussions with charities and the public that those implementing policy and programmes are to explore the views and concerns of patients about the open with the public about how their information will use of AI in healthcare, and I would be grateful for the be used. That is why patients, and the wider public, Minister’s assurances that through the development of should feel involved with not only the details of what the new lab, NHSX will be exploring the opinions of their data will be used for but the wider work of the patients and thoroughly engaging them throughout that NHS to use artificial intelligence to improve our health ongoing process. service. In June, when speaking on the use of AI, NHS In the past five years, we have seen AI go from England chief executive Simon Stevens said that struggling to identify images of cats to being able to “from April next year we propose to change the way we fund care identify skin cancer in histological sections of biopsies so that NHS organisations who invest in this world-leading just as well as a team of specialist doctors with decades technology will be properly rewarded for doing so.” of combined experience. In debates on this topic, it is I would be grateful for an update from the Minister on easy to discuss issues in what seem like abstract terms, what form that is due to take. I am sure that such an but when patients go to see their GP, they want to see update would be welcome if colleagues are to make their GP. In such cases, AI could be used to create representations with their own health authorities and automatically the GP’s notes about their patient, reducing trusts. the time that the doctor will spend looking at their Our report raised the issue of what patients need to screen, for example. know. Transparency is welcome, and it is important to There is also the issue of self-management. From specify what type of transparency, as well as its intended dedicated apps that people use while going out for a run outcome, in addition to being clear about for whom the to the most basic step counters, more and more people transparency is intended. Transparency can include use their own devices, on some level, to keep an eye on outlining why an algorithm was developed, what types their health. AI can be used more and more in this area. of data were used, and how the development was funded. Patients could use wearable devices and sensors to Some experts have argued that the black box of AI—the manage their condition at home and in the community difficulty in understanding how AI models reach their instead of in hospital. AI systems could then monitor decisions—is not really a problem at all, as humans are for unusual patient-specific patterns, such as a deterioration equally opaque in how they arrive at decisions. in a heart failure patient, and relay that information to a However, the ability to scrutinise, conduct quality clinical team for further intervention. That also presents assurance, and undertake due diligence are important an opportunity to put patients in much better control of parts of regulating the health system and ensuring their care. patient safety. In November 2017, the national data Our inquiry heard from experts from the University guardian for health and care, Dame Fiona Caldicott, of Cambridge and the University of Oxford, who told told the House of Lords Artificial Intelligence Committee us that NHS health checks could be better at distinguishing about the challenges of using patient data in technology, the risk of different types of heart condition, to ensure saying: that the most suitable treatment can be received by the “What we have not done is take the public with us in these patient. On 16 August, the Department of Health and discussions, and we really need their views.” 157WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 158WH

That needs to be addressed. If patients are to trust the That reminds us that patients must be at the heart of use of AI in healthcare, they need to know they are a today’s debate, and hopefully future debates in Parliament vital part of the journey. on this issue. Our report also looked at the regulatory framework, and how the development of such technological innovations 1.48 pm means that health systems are becoming more complex environments to regulate. At the same time, it is important Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): It is a pleasure that the regulatory burden is not added to, so that the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley.I congratulate spread and adoption of new innovations is not stifled. the hon. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) not only Our inquiry found that a on securing the debate but on his thoughtful and comprehensive introduction to an extraordinarily “balancing act between managing expectations and encouraging complicated subject that I suspect will require much hope and enthusiasm is always challenging but nevertheless important. When we say patients should be informed and clear on what AI more debate in this place in future. I chair the all-party can do for the NHS, it is not a tick-box measure. It is to provide parliamentary group on data analytics and represent a the clarity that is needed for better diffusion of AI.” constituency that is, of course, well known for its health services, innovation and tech cluster, not just in the city NHS England and NICE, the National Institute for but around it. Health and Care Excellence, should encourage the development and use of reporting standards for AI The issue is therefore close to my heart. When I was research, in order to provide best practice for artificial elected as the Member of Parliament for Cambridge, I intelligence researchers. That could also lead to greater never imagined that I would spend quite so much time recognition of quality in AI research, particularly among on such issues, but there are many jobs involved and the media, policy makers, clinicians and the public. huge opportunities available, exactly as the hon. Gentleman said. However, I suspect that I will be slightly less With regard to my constituents, I mentioned the optimistic than him, because as I have begun to look at importance of Government, policy makers and NHS the issue more closely, it has struck me, as he said, that staff, all of whom have an important role to play in the only way that we will make it work is by maintaining supporting patients. I am also grateful for the secretariat the trust of patients, which is difficult—particularly support provided to the APPG by the British Heart given the behaviour of some of the major tech companies. Foundation, and I pay tribute to the charity’shardworking It is not a lost cause, in my view, but we are going to volunteers, including those whom I have been pleased need a qualitative change in regulation and protection if to meet throughout Crawley, and those at the British we are to secure some of the benefits that have already Heart Foundation shops located on Queensway and on been referenced. Every day in Cambridge, I hear about the Broadway in my constituency. new innovations and developments that convince me There is much to welcome in the NHS long-term plan. and, I think, many others that we really are on the cusp Indeed, NHS funding will grow on average by 3.4% in of a technological revolution across a range of sectors. real terms each year from 2019-20 to 2023-24, which is Everywhere one goes in Cambridge, one sees people of course welcome. The current funding increase will working on the most extraordinary things, and the mean that the NHS can lay further foundations for gains are potentially huge, not just for our citizens but service improvements. Thanks to our NHS staff, millions across the world. more people are being treated every year. Although It is hard to explain a lot of this to the public. I feel services return to Crawley Hospital—and I continue to that I am in a privileged position going around Cambridge; call for even greater provision—it remains the case that I sometimes feel that I am the only person who is seeing the worst decision in the history of Crawley as a new all the various things that are going on, and one of my town was the removal of A&E in 2005. Our constituents challenges is to try to spread the word about all the stuff expect to see improved GP provision, reduced waiting that is happening. My worry is that often it is poorly times and enhanced frontline services. communicated and poorly understood, and that The APPG on heart and circulatory diseases welcomes misunderstanding can easily lead to a public backlash. I the great strides made in recent years to speed up the read with great interest the report from the all-party development and diffusion of AI in the NHS. The parliamentary group on heart and circulatory diseases; Office for Artificial Intelligence and the AI Council a very distinguished panel of people was behind it, and have huge potential to bolster the UK’s position as a I will highlight some of the crucial points. world leader in AI as part of the Government’s AI Ensuring that artificial intelligence really does enhance sector deal. The Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation patient healthcare—and that it does not, as some of us can also cement the UK’s leadership in ethical AI and fear could easily happen, get diverted on to a profit-seeking ensure that society can shape the direction of travel and route—requires the following key elements: stakeholder reap the benefits of AI, and we hope that those initiatives engagement; an exact explanation of the risks and will continue to be taken forward. benefits; keeping researchers and academics involved; The chief executive of NHS England has called for digital inclusion in general; proper development of policy, this country to become a world leader in the use of AI focusing on AI for public values; and the development and machine learning, stating that exploiting the boom of standards. in AI technology can help meet the target in the NHS There are others, of course, working in a similar field. long-term plan of making up to 30 million outpatient I am delighted to see present a fellow member of the appointments unnecessary, in addition to saving more APPG on data analytics, the hon. Member for North than £1 billion in what would have been increasing East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley). A few months ago he and outpatient visits. The money can be reinvested in frontline my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West care and save patients unnecessary journeys to hospitals. (Darren Jones) led a very good inquiry and produced, 159WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 160WH

[Daniel Zeichner] London, and I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us about that. Simon Stevens made a commitment, but with a similarly illustrious panel of experts, an excellent these changes are happening quickly and one of the things report entitled “Trust, Transparency and Technology”. that we know about the NHS is that it is quite a tanker It is amazing how many people are working in this field at to turn around. Quick, unintended consequences are not the moment. Part of that report—I suspect the hon. always benign ones for the people on the receiving end. Gentleman will refer to it when he speaks—was focused The wider point, of course, is that some of us are on healthcare. He did the work, so I do not want to steal worried that the NHS, which is free at the point of use, his thunder, but I will pick out a particular couple is being undermined by the creeping in of a potentially of things. competitive system. That can be resolved in some ways: We drew on a 2018 survey by the Open Data Institute, we can change the administrative structures, for example, whose statistics reflected those cited by the hon. Member and sort out the financial flows. My bigger fear relates for Crawley. Some 64% of consumers trusted the NHS to confidentiality and what is happening with patient and healthcare organisations with their personal data, data. It is frequently argued that the data will be which is more than the 57% who trusted their family anonymised, and this is where we get into the realm of and friends. Consumers also trusted the NHS more the techies. Plenty of people have explained to me that it than they trusted their bank, the figure for which was is possible to reverse that anonymisation process, because also 57%; local government, for which it was 41%; and as clever as these machines are in terms of machine online retailers, for which it was 22%. I do not think learning, they are also pretty clever at doing the reverse. they asked about the level of trust in politics; that is I am now pretty much persuaded that there is no such probably not recorded. Nearly half of respondents—47% thing as anonymity. We must face the fact that there are of them—were prepared to share medical data about consequences to these tremendous gains, and think themselves. I have seen different figures, and I would through how we should deal with some of them. also reflect on the fact that 53% were not prepared to This does not necessarily matter. I remember years share data. However, those people were prepared to ago when, under the previous Labour Government, share their data provided that it helped develop new Alistair Darling unfortunately had to come to Parliament medicines and treatments. In terms of the trade-offs for and explain that his Department had lost millions of data sharing, they were most keen to participate when it people’s data. That week, everyone thought the world was for medical research. was going to come to an end, but it did not. An awful As we know in politics, however, trust is hard won lot of data is out there already, which is not great and easily lost, and we have to be careful. A few months because we do not know who knows what about us. ago, I was asked to write a foreword to a report by the That is not necessarily a disaster, but if data is being think-tank Polygeia, entitled “Technology in Healthcare: used for the wrong purposes, it could be very difficult. Advancing AI in the NHS”. The report is consistent This is my key point, I suppose: I am afraid that the with other work in this field and comes to broadly evidence from the big tech companies, as we see almost similar conclusions to those we have already heard. daily, is that they have been doing things with our data There is also a sense that NHS staff need to be closely that we did not know about. That is a problem that we involved in these developments, to ensure that they are previously experienced with the Care.data failure in the not just kept informed but given a sense of understanding NHS, which damaged public trust. It is absolutely essential and confidence about how this can work. The black box that we do better in future if we are going to keep the algorithm to which the hon. Member for Crawley referred public on board. is still a little baffling and scary to a lot of people. If we The report from the APPG on data analytics states: are going to make this work, it is crucial that we consult, educate and take people with us. We must rely “Key lessons from this failure are around data security and on the advice of medical and healthcare professionals, consent, and reinforce the need for proper public engagement in the development of data collection programmes, and gaining the who are best placed to understand the concerns of both right level of consent, if such consent is not subsequently to be their patients and their colleagues. withdrawn with major clinical and value for money implications. We are constantly seeing new developments in the In the case of DeepMind, Dame Fiona Caldicott, the National news. One of the joys of modern life is that when we go Data Guardian at the Department of Health, concluded that she on holiday, we still watch our iPad. This summer I ‘did not believe that when the patient data was shared with noticed the debate about DeepMind and its new ability Google DeepMind, implied consent for direct care was an appropriate to predict acute kidney failure; it wins an extra 48 hours legal basis’.” by looking at huge volumes of data and doing the number There is a significant number of concerns and the crunching. That is bound to be a good thing but, typically, issues are profound and difficult. We have a whole range there were people who questioned the methodology and of structures in place to try to deal with some of them, who raised concerns about unforeseen consequences. I and I have huge respect for the Information Commissioner’s also think there are some unforeseen consequences to Office.The Information Commissioner frequently tells those these kinds of changes, and I will touch on one or two. of us who ask that that office does have the appropriate So far, I have been profoundly non-partisan and resources. Given the scale and difficulty of the task, I non-political, but I have to say that the new Secretary of must say that I find that hard to believe, because it is a State for Health and Social Care did rather wade in very big task indeed. The hon. Member for Crawley early on with his support for Babylon Health and GP at mentioned the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, Hand. Those kinds of technologies provide tremendous which is at an early stage. Frankly, it, too, will struggle opportunities but, as the hon. Member for Crawley to find the resources to meet the scale of the task. said, such developments can be disruptive to the I sat on the Bill Committee for the Data Protection organisation of the national health service. There has Act 2018, which introduced the general data protection been disruption to funding flows, particularly across regulations. Some parts could have been strengthened. I 161WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 162WH tabled amendments that would have tightened up the (Henry Smith) on securing the debate. He is a doughty assurance that research institutions must process healthcare champion and campaigner for this area of public health data ethically for patient gain, but sadly, the Government policy. It is great to have the opportunity to talk about it chose not to adopt them. I hope that they might look at and the innovations and where it can go in the long term. the issue again. A feature of the lengthy discussions in I congratulate the all-party parliamentary group on Committee, particularly in the Opposition’s observations, data analytics for its sterling work on this important report, was that although the legislation is worthy, it felt like it which brings together a substantial amount of work was for the previous period, rather than the future, and demonstrates the possibilities for the country and given the pace of change that we are likely to encounter. the sector to make progress in the coming years. I also We were not convinced that it would keep up. welcome the Minister to her new role and I look forward We need a much more radical set of safeguards. To to the work that she will be doing in this and many stray slightly into the technical areas, when my local other areas—hopefully for longer than the coming days. paper asked what my summer reading was going to be, I hope to see her in her place for many years to come. it was surprised to hear that it was Shoshana Zuboff’s I welcome the debate because it is a massively important magnum opus, “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism”. subject for our country and the health of our citizens. It It is a thought-provoking work and astonishing in the is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge way she untangles the range of uses to which our data is (Daniel Zeichner), who highlighted some of the work being put every time we pick up our smartphone—or, in that I have been involved in, in a tiny way, over the last some cases, when we do not even turn it on. Many people few months. I thank the APPG for its kindness in are surprised to find that, far from being a phone, it is a allowing me and the hon. Member for Bristol North tracking device. As she says, the question is not just who West (Darren Jones) to do that. The commission that knows about us, but who decides what data is used, and we co-chair, which looked into the importance of ethics who decides who decides what that data is used for. She in the aggregation of data and the use of technology, talks about a shadow text, effectively; there is the data brought it home to me that we need to have more that we put on there and then there are all the connections discussions such as this and that it is important for that are made. public policy to focus on these things. Staggeringly, huge amounts of information are being I also welcome the debate because, for once, we are held about all of us that we do not have any access not talking about Brexit. It is a fantastic opportunity to—that we do not know about. At the moment, those not to do that. I slightly regret bringing it up, but I will companies consider that it belongs to them. We have to do it anyway. For me, this is the kind of debate that will change that, because I think if it is about us, it belongs be transformative for the people in our society and to us. That is a huge challenge, because if it were to communities over the next 30 years. It will transform happen, it would fundamentally challenge the business the royal hospital that serves my constituents in north-east model of those hugely fabulously wealthy tech giants, Derbyshire and the hospitals in Sheffield, in the same which are hardly likely to give it up easily. The only way way that automation, artificial intelligence, big data to tackle it, however, is through Governments and and machine learning will transform my local economy regulation. I hate to mention the issue of the hour, but and the skills we need to teach in my local schools. If that is one reason, of course, why those companies there had been more such debates, instead of the ones dislike the European Union—because we need large we have seen in the last few days, Parliament would have organisations to counter the giant power that we face. been in a healthier place in the last few months. We have a fantastic opportunity, particularly with AI has the potential to be hugely transformative, as I our national health service, which, as is often observed, saw as part of the commission. We need to look at it has access to huge amounts of data that no other health more, not just in healthcare but in education and elsewhere. system in the world has. In this country, we have the Again, I congratulate the APPG on the report, which is fantastic raw material and a fantastic data science industry. a great start in the area of healthcare, but that is an area We have the expertise and the knowledge. We also, just about which we have to be incredibly careful, as the about, have the good will of our citizens. We have a hon. Member for Cambridge has eloquently outlined— great opportunity,but we will need much tougher regulatory much more eloquently that I can. Our population has frameworks to unlock that potential in the right way. I trust in our healthcare systems and is willing, at the fear that, so far, compared with what we have to do, we moment, to innovate in those areas, but those things are have merely been tinkering. hard-won, are not particularly guaranteed and will be There are huge opportunities. I have raised a range of easily lost if we are not careful. The worst situation that issues that go beyond the immediate ones. I hope that we could end up with is one where there is huge potential Parliament will find an opportunity to have those in the area but we are unable to do anything because discussions in the period ahead. If I were asked whether people do not wish it to be utilised or do not have we are in a position to meet the challenge, I would say, confidence in it being utilised in the way they want. “Not yet.” I do not think it is impossible, but it will be I am pleased by some of the statistics in the report, difficult, so it is vital to start the discussion. I thank the particularly the level of confidence that is already there. hon. Member for Crawley for giving us the opportunity Some 85% of people support in principle the use of to do that today. artificial intelligence to move that area forward and 86% of people are willing to have their anonymised data 2.3 pm shared. The hon. Member for Cambridge has already outlined, however, the challenge with that, because we Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): It is a may all like the idea of our data being shared as long as pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. it is anonymous, but it is almost impossible to anonymise I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley it. There are numerous reports that say that it takes only 163WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 164WH

[Lee Rowley] another one of those occasions. It is also nice to see the Minister in her place. I promise not to ask any questions a few data attributes in the same area, even with a that will throw her off guard, as I did yesterday. That population dataset that is not particularly large, to retrofit was not intentional, by the way; I just wanted to add to them and work out where the data has come from and, the debate. I hope to get a response on that question at ultimately, who the data points in it are. That is a some time in the future. No doubt, if we have the challenge that we have to get over if we are to innovate, opportunity to have debates in Westminster Hall, the develop and utilise the technology. Minister will be in a position to answer many of my Other aspects of AI’s use concern me greatly, such as questions. I also thank the hon. Members for Cambridge security. We have to make sure that we consider security, (Daniel Zeichner) and for North East Derbyshire (Lee whatever we are using AI technology for, whether in Rowley), as well as those who will follow me, for their operations or additions to people. There is also a question contributions. about the development of the technology. We have a Mr Paisley, you know that I am not au fait with trade-off to make in which, as the hon. Member for computer technology. I honestly cannot use a computer. Cambridge rightly said, the development will be judged My children can, and my grandchildren can, but this and accelerated or decelerated by our appetite in this auld boy cannot. It is one of those things. When someone country for how we use data, what we do with it, what relies on the staff in their office to do all the computer consent we have behind it and what the population are work, perhaps they do not have to. It is only in the last willing to do. few years that my colleague and hon. Friend the Member Countries elsewhere in the world do not have the for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), in this very Chamber, same structures, rules, morals and ethics that we do in taught me how to text; I learned to text just over two relation to the usage of data. We see that already in years ago. So I have advanced greatly in my aspirations, other areas. In China in particular the Government use although I suspect that others will say that if that is all I personal data for the control of their citizens and have done, I have not done very much! people are incredibly uncomfortable with how that data I am not all that au fait with computers, but the is used. We have to create a framework around that. I presence of modern technology in science and medicine am a small-state Conservative who believes in as little has saved billions of lives and can only be lauded, regulation as possible—not no regulation, as I believe in especially when it is matched with the brilliance of the regulation where it is appropriate, but not in significant human mind and human hands—the skill of the surgeon, amounts. This is one area where, while I am not necessarily the knowledge of the doctor and the care of the nurses. convinced that we need lots of regulation, we need to All those things coming together are a very important talk about what the regulation is and where we ultimately combination. Putting patients at the heart of artificial want to get to. The creation of the Centre for Data Ethics intelligence is what we are discussing. and Innovation is positive. I know the Government, the The background information on the debate we received Secretary of State and the Minister are working hard on pointed out in its news section various articles in the this subject, but we need to have more conversations media where the NHS and all those with health problems about it. This is a great start. I really welcome the debate can see the benefits of artificial intelligence and healthcare. and the report. As the hon. Member for Cambridge mentioned, it can I have a personal interest, too. My father had a be used to tackle staff shortages. We can also use it to double heart bypass a number of years ago, after a address and help those with kidney problems. That is an heart attack. Luckily, he came through that. He is now issue very close to my heart: my nephew had a kidney busy doing whatever he is doing today—decorating or transplant, so the issue of kidney problems is real for whatever. He would not be here today without the me and my family. innovations of the last 40 or 50 years. I want to make Other articles note that artificial intelligence could sure that other people’s dads and mums are here in the “restore the care” in healthcare, that scientists claim to next 50 years, because of this kind of technology, so have developed the world’s first AI vaccine, and that long as it is used properly. The APPG is doing sterling smart tech can help people with dementia. How real work in ensuring that that is the case. that issue is in my constituency. Over this last period of Finally—not to go back to Brexit!—my last point is time, I have noticed that many more people with issues that we need more of this sort of debate, please, and less with dementia and Alzheimer’s are coming forward to of what we have had in the last few days in the other make me aware of their problems. It is a terrible disease Chamber. to watch, as it greatly changes lives. The role of technology is ongoing and vital to a 2.10 pm vibrant NHS, but we can never be in the position whereby it overtakes a doctor who can act on experience Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I apologise to the hand in hand with their medical knowledge. We need to Minister and all hon. Members for not being here on have both the human element and the artificial intelligence time. I was in the main Chamber, as I had a business aspect working together as we move forward. question that I wanted to ask the Leader of the House. I I welcomed the Government’sannouncement of 8 August apologise for my late arrival. I hope that everyone will 2019, in which they outlined some £250 million of be happy with me speaking, having arrived more than investment to help establish a national AI laboratory, 10 minutes late. which would sit within NHSX. That money is incredible. It is a pleasure to speak on this matter. I thank the They also purposefully set aside money within that; the hon. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) for bringing Office for Life Sciences has established five centres of forward an issue on which he and I are much in tandem excellence in digital pathology and radiology with artificial in thought, deed and speech, as so often; today is intelligence, supported by an initial £50 million industrial 165WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 166WH strategy challenge fund investment and a further £50 million of knowing they have outsmarted them. There are also to scale up funding from the Department of Health and those who do it to garner information for nefarious use. Social Care. We had a breach of information in this place that led to The centres are working with NHS and industry partners. my staff’s home details being leaked, which we took We cannot do anything if we do not have partnerships, very seriously. How much more serious would that be one of which I will give as an example later on. Those for vulnerable, ill people? partners include innovative small and medium-sized Any investment in AI within the NHS can go hand in enterprises, and they are working to develop pioneering hand only with top-level data protection and cyber-security, artificial intelligence-enabled pathology and radiology especially when we bear in mind that in May 2017—it tools. Weneed the NHS and partnerships with universities will be real to many of us in the House, and indeed to and business to ensure that we can move forward and almost everyone in Westminster Hall—the NHS was hit that we can all benefit. by a large-scale cyber-attack that disrupted hospital I read an interesting article that highlighted the fact and GP appointments. It was high level, very disruptive that medical imaging—where AI can be trained on and clearly down to someone intentionally disrupting thousands of scans—has led the charge. This is marvellous what took place. It is a tight rope that we walk, and I technology; clinical trials have proven that it is as good believe that it can be walked. I ask the Minister to assure as leading doctors at spotting lung cancer, skin cancer, us that security is a priority in any use and sharing of and more than 50 eye conditions from scans. patient data that is essential to the use of artificial intelligence in the NHS. If we can advance medical expertise and knowledge, let us do that and encourage it. It has the potential to I believe we must move with the times and use all allow doctors to focus on the most urgent cases and rule tools at our disposal to diagnose early, which allows more out those who do not need treatment immediately, or effective treatment, and we also need to ensure that our identify where a minor treatment would do. Other tools medically trained professionals are on hand and using have been developed that can predict ovarian cancer the tools, and that they are not being replaced by such survival rates and help to choose which treatment could tools. In some of the futuristic films that we see—I am and should be given. not sure whether anyone watches them—the robots take Diagnosis is, of course, important. Artificial intelligence over. Everything happens. That is not a society that I has the potential to transform the delivery of healthcare particularly want to see. I want to see us working hand in the NHS, from streamlining workflow processes to in hand with AI, and I want to see the human input into improving the accuracy of diagnosis and personalising that. Finally, we need to ensure that all information is treatment, as well as helping staff to work more efficiently safely shared. and effectively. With modern AI, a mix of human and We recognise the investment by the Government. Let artificial intelligences can be developed across discipline us not be churlish—the Government have made significant boundaries to generate a greater collective intelligence. progress on this issue, which I welcome, but I also want I laid an early-day motion this week—I am not sure to ensure that some of the things that hon. Members whether hon. Members have had a chance to look at it; andIhavebroughttotheMinister’sattentionareresponded I would encourage them to sign it. Mr Paisley, hailing to. I believe the investment by the Government will be from Northern Ireland, as I do, will understand its money well spent, if we safeguard each aspect of it. importance. It is about Queen’s University in Belfast, which is doing some fantastic work addressing cancer issues. The EDM says: 2.21 pm “That this House congratulates all of those involved at Queens Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and University, Belfast for its breakthrough early research findings on Lesmahagow) (SNP): It is an absolute pleasure to serve discovering a biomarker panel for ovarian cancer that may be able to detect epithelial ovarian cancer two years earlier than existing under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley—I believe it is the testing methods; thanks those who work so tirelessly to bring first time I have done so in Westminster Hall, which is about such a difference to lives of people throughout the globe; particularly pleasing to me. I thank everyone who has and expresses pride in one of the foremost medical research taken part in this excellent debate, and I particularly universities in the world.” thank the hon. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) for Queen’s University is doing tremendous work, as are securing it. I think the one thing on which we can have other universities. A number of my friends over the cross-party agreement is that the more debates we have years have had ovarian cancer—I am sure others here in which Brexit is not the focus, the better. I am sure we will have also had that experience. Unfortunately, the could all go through the Lobbies to agree on that. diagnosis of ovarian cancer is often, “Go home and get This is such an important debate, and I think the your affairs in order.” There is a limited time to live. public and many of ourselves as MPs are just beginning That work will hopefully predict ovarian cancer two to catch up with how important it is, which is why I am years in advance of what we are able to do now, and is a particularly pleased that the hon. Member for Crawley fantastic, tremendous breakthrough. We welcome it. It secured it. He linked technology, the NHS and artificial shows that partnerships between the health service, intelligence in such a detailed speech, and he chairs an universities and big business can make things happen. important all-party parliamentary group. We can see As I said, I want to ensure that there is hands-on, that technological advances are saving lives on the human co-operation with AI methods of diagnosis, and frontline, which is tremendously important to people another concern I have is safeguarding information. It right across the United Kingdom. That is why we is important that we protect people in the process. cannot over-focus on this issue. More and more debates There are people who pride themselves on hacking will be about it in so many different domains, particularly information from Government services, just for the joy in health. 167WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 168WH

[Dr Lisa Cameron] have to think about other countries and how they manage data. We take part in lots of clinical trials—I The hon. Gentleman brought up an important issue: am going to mention the EU, then move on to talk education of the public, which will be absolutely key about, more broadly, the situation internationally. We going forward. It is such a crucial issue for us all to have to look at developing standards commensurate consider,because it is not just about medical and healthcare with those of other countries, and we must at least professionals becoming educated, and perhaps their know the limitations of the collaboration that can be training changing over time to incorporate all these new undertaken when it involves our NHS and is about our techniques and procedures, and about how the world is patients’ data. He also mentioned his personal family becoming much more digitalised, with 5G and so on circumstances and how important the advances have coming on stream; it is also about public understanding been for his own family and their healthcare. It is always and ensuring that the public are involved in their healthcare very poignant to have that personal experience to bring going forward, and that they are absolutely able to to debates, and to speak about the impact that has engage with it. made. Like the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I looked around a few times just as I sat down, and I I am a real technophobe. It took me over a year to try to thought, “Why is the chair behind me empty, and where pay for things by tapping a debit card on machines in is the hon. Member for Strangford?” Then I turned stores. Now, I love it. I probably do not even carry any round again a third time, and there he was. He never money now, but at first I was so anxious that I would be fails to take part in as many debates as possible in the walking about and having money removed from my House of Commons, and to ensure that his constituents bank account that I avoided using it. That is one of the are so well supported and their issues addressed at every concerns about the technology. It is about bringing the step of the way. I am pleased that he recently learned to public and those of us who, unlike my own kids, have text, because it sounds like he is similar to me in being not grown up with such technology as the norm. trepidatious about technology. Both our examples show We have to get people on board and ensure that, why we have to educate the public and try to ensure that across the lifespan, people can really benefit from the we all become up to speed with the technology.I mentioned digital revolution that is happening, and that people do the wonderful facilities at Queen’s University Belfast, not become more isolated and left out of society because where I was going to go and study before deciding to they are left behind. That is important for their physical stay at Glasgow University; when I was training as a health—monitoring prevention and so on—and for their clinical psychologist, I had also applied to Queen’s. I mental health, in terms of feeling really engaged and could have gone to Queen’s if I had not gone to Glasgow, involved in society. We have to integrate all this with the so I have always had a soft spot for it. I am delighted professionals in our healthcare settings, with the public that its research is formative and will make such a being a key focus. difference. As has been said, artificial intelligence will be so From my experience of working in health, I know crucial at every step of the patient’s journey. It will that computer programs managing data are very important, include prevention—we have already heard about some but the systems do not link up. For instance, health of the developments. There is some amazing work being boards pay millions of pounds for systems that work done at Queen’s University Belfast on early prevention, for child services and for adult services, but the data detection of ovarian cancer—my goodness, how life-saving cannot be transferred between the two. Children become will that be?—and early interventions, not just for physical adults, so how do we merge the data across their lifespan? health, but for mental health. I am very keen for us to Will the Minister look at that issue? For most people, look at how we can engage more with AI and digital transferring data seems commonsensical, but it is not technology, perhaps in relation to depression, anxiety happening in practice. Aligning it better would save a and how patients can monitor their mood, and at how lot of money; we should not have to change systems technological advances can promote what we want to that have already cost the taxpayer millions of pounds. do: achieve parity of esteem for mental health services and physical health services. There is also treatment and I was pleased to secure a debate on smart cities just recovery. It will be about prevention, early intervention, before the recess, in which we talked about 5G. Driverless treatment and recovery, and the technology will be technology will enable ambulances to get to incidents crucial at every step of the way. much quicker when we have 5G technology and the I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Cambridge next industrial revolution—this technological revolution— (Daniel Zeichner) talk about developing standards, because happens. I would be interested to hear from the Minister everything in healthcare is about developing standards, how 5G fits in with the issues we are debating and the best practice and guidelines, and that is what fosters the advances that are being made. Where does she see the public’s faith in the work that we do. Our NHS is so future lying? loved right across the United Kingdom. When private I have spoken about this issue with some international companies bring their expertise in research and technology delegations, particularly from Japan and China. We into such a beloved institution as the NHS, it is extremely talked about the fact that technology and artificial important that the public have a sense of those companies’ intelligence have had an impact on social care. Robotics remit and the sensitive nature of the data, that protection is being used in care homes—for example, robots can and security issues are addressed, and that standards remind patients to take their medication. I would be are of the utmost importance for maintaining that. interested to know a bit more about how we are linking The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee to our international partners. We must collaborate safely Rowley), too, spoke of the importance of security and in a way that enables patients in social care and the international collaboration and research. Again, we NHS to benefit from technological advances. 169WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 170WH

We have talked about how important this technology involvesacomputerequippedwithasophisticatedalgorithm will be for surgical procedures. That was described very capable of analysing thousands of sets of data. A computer well. I agree wholeheartedly that there must be a partnership learns patterns from the data and is able to make between robotic techniques and skilled clinicians. That predictions based on it. The more data the computer is what the public wants, and that will always be the has, the smarter it gets. Tasks that require extraordinary safeguard as we take these issues forward. attention to detail, such as radiography, diagnosis, robot- On the issue of prevention, smartphones and smart assisted surgery, administration and many others, can watches, technology has had a massive impact on reducing be transformed using AI. The prospects are exciting. missed appointments in the NHS. Sending patients a The ability to deliver early and speedy diagnosis and to text to remind them to come to appointments saves develop personalised treatment plans is welcome in a money and clinicians’ valuable appointment time. health service besieged by unprecedented demand, long Social media must be responsible when it comes to waiting lists and staff shortages. health. Through its technological advances, it is already AI is a game changer for the NHS and healthcare in playing a huge part, but young people in particular often general. The UK has the potential to be the world get inappropriate information from websites that are leader in digital-assisted healthcare. In our lifetimes, not properly regulated. The large companies must take there will come a point when conditions like cancers much more ownership of those issues. I have discussed and strokes can be pre-detected instantly from simple these issues with Facebook and Twitter recently. There scans, enabling the patient to get the very best early are sites that tell people how to develop an eating intervention treatment. Only this week, researchers at disorder or harm themselves. We must look at regulating Oxford University reported that they have developed them further. Will the Minister address their impact on artificial intelligence that will be able to detect, from a mental health? Will she think about not just mental scan of an apparently healthy individual, heart attacks health treatments that we can develop through technology, that are 10 years away. but about how we ensure appropriate regulation is in Wemust be careful, however,in enabling this revolution. place for sites that are not managed by our NHS or Technology is a double-edged sword, and for every professionals and are causing harm to the public? monster it destroys, it has the potential to create one in I am pleased to say that Scotland is to have its own its place, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge £15.8 million AI health research centre based at the (Daniel Zeichner) reminded us. We must be grounded in University of Glasgow. It will be a genuine collaboration reality. It is easy to get excited about a vision, but we between NHS research and other industries. We are must keep bringing ourselves back to what it means to keen to ensure that all partners are involved and that we real people, and what the potential dangers are. We can generate the very best practice in technology and must proceed with caution. Above all, we must ensure healthcare. that AI is not something that is done to patients. We must proceed with an engaged and well-informed 2.35 pm population. Legislation and regulation must keep pace with scientific innovation. No one wants to see unnecessary Julie Cooper (Burnley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve regulation. I note the points made by the hon. Member under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. I thank the hon. for North East Derbyshire. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) for securing this debate on a very important subject. I welcome the It is absolutely vital, however, that the regulation is Minister to her place. I, too, am very pleased to be adequate and keeps pace. Above all, we must protect talking about something other than Brexit. I thank all patient safety.We must act sensibly and legislate robustly, hon. Members for their informed contributions, and I with proper scientific input to ensure that changes are pay tribute to the hon. Members for North East Derbyshire to the benefit and not the detriment of patients. Patients (Lee Rowley) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for must be kept at the heart of the changes and we must sharing their personal family experiences. As the hon. retain their trust, which, as other hon. Members have Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow said, is hard to gain but easily lost. (Dr Cameron) said, that always adds poignancy to If patients are to trust and fully embrace this debates and keeps us rooted in reality. I thank the revolutionary transformation of care, they need full APPG on heart and circulatory diseases for its excellent explanations and to understand what is involved. People report, “Putting patients at the heart of artificial need to understand, for example, that artificial intelligence intelligence”, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I will not replace their GP with a robot, but will mean learned a great deal from it. that a GP session may be recorded and transcribed by This is a fascinating debate. When Charles Babbage computer, which then produces a diagnosis. We need to created the difference engine in the 19th century, he pay special attention to the needs of the vulnerable, could not have envisaged where modern computing elderly and, in particular, the mentally ill. We must would take us. We are living in a brave new world. We make it plain to patients that AI is not and never will be are in the midst of a technological revolution that is a replacement for human health professionals. It should alreadymassivelytransformingourlives.Artificialintelligence always be clear that AI is not a means of providing is already widely used at our airports and in our homes. health services on the cheap, but a way of enhancing Virtual care assistants are being trialled, and driverless diagnosis and treatments to assist, not replace,well-qualified cars will soon be a common sight on our roads. It would health professionals. be strange therefore if we did not take full advantage of There are obvious implications for data protection the contribution that AI can make to healthcare. and the misuse of data. Although ideas such as allowing There are many different types of AI. I am not a Amazon’s Alexa to use NHS 111 information to guide scientist and do not understand all the complexities of patients to the most effective non-emergency treatment AI—although I can text—but I do understand that it are beneficial, the idea of inadvertently letting such 171WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 172WH

[Julie Cooper] Artificial intelligence has the potential to make a massive difference to health and care. There are significant companies have unfettered access to patient records, opportunities to save money, improve care and save which they could use for other unconnected purposes, is lives. AI technology could help personalise NHS screening clearly unacceptable. and treatments for cancer, eye diseases and a range of We must ensure that patients know that our laws other conditions, as well as free up staff time. protect them from predatory companies. All data used Almost all health and care services can benefit from in the NHS—even if through third-party contractors—must AI in some way, but realising its potential for our health stay within the NHS. If we are to embrace this revolution, and care system depends on the involvement of patients. it must be patient-focused and not a market-centred We are committed to working with patients to ensure approach. AI must improve life outcomes and not be that they understand and are involved in the decision used to sell diet pills in the name of healthcare. Patients making about how we use AI to deliver the impact that and medical professionals must be properly educated in we both want and need. what AI will mean for them, and both should be involved as much as possible in the design process. I will give a few examples of how AI is working. Some patients have already benefited from it, as hon. Members Artificial intelligence can bring many benefits, but its have highlighted. John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford has use in healthcare brings significant challenges. We have developed a system that uses AI to improve detection of nothing to fear from embracing it, as long as all provision heart disease and lung cancer, as the shadow Minister is properly regulated in a way that protects patients mentioned. Currently, 20% of heart scans result in a without stifling continued innovation—there is a fine falsepositivediagnosis,andthesubsequent12,000unnecessary balance. The key is to ensure that health professionals operations cost the NHS about £600 million a year. The are involved in every stage of development and, most potential financial savings are huge. importantly of all, that the NHS ensures that patients are fully informed and engaged. Another fantastic example of the use of AI is that of The APPG concluded: Moorfields Eye Hospital’s implementation of the DeepMind AI algorithm for retina scans. The AI can “Meaningful, early and proactive engagement on how AI is used in healthcare is essential for effective implementation and correctly recommend patient treatment referrals, to the sustainability.” same or better standard as world-leading doctors, for That is well put and I agree. Unless patients are fully more than 50 sight-threatening eye diseases. Tens of engaged, AI will just not progress in the way that it thousands of scans were taken of people with both could and opportunities will be lost. I hope that the healthy and diseased retinas, and DeepMind developed Minister will outline the Government’s plans for software that could detect—long before a doctor could— implementing the report’s recommendations. Will she sight-threatening diseases and the patterns that lead to reassure us that the NHS will lead on this with all its them. That is just one example. resources, ensuring that patients are at the heart of this The use of AI goes further than just diagnostics. exciting new technology, and that all patients, irrespective NHS 111 online,once fully implemented, will automatically of their socioeconomic background or personal ability triage patients by using AI technology. The system to access technology, will be able to benefit? sends patients to the most appropriate care setting and 2.43 pm reduces unnecessary A&E visits, meaning that patients can access the care that they need faster. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ms Nadine Dorries): It is a great We must make best use of the available resources pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. within the NHS to harness the full potential of AI, The debate has been really interesting, particularly in which relies heavily on enormous amounts of data to the light of the number of Members who stood up and learn and become effective at its task. That data must be admitted that, although they could not send emails, shared safely, however. Health data that is shared fairly, only recently learned how to text and do not use contactless ethically and transparently has the potential to improve payment cards, they were very much in support of the outcomes for patients, improve the efficiency and efficacy potential of AI technology and what it can offer patients, of the NHS, and underpin the next wave of innovative healthcare settings and the public at large. research taking place in the UK. AI is exciting and innovative. I have been in my To help the NHS and researchers share health data in Department only a few days and I have learned some a safe, secure and lawful way, the Government have more from this debate. I hope to have some answers for committed to developing a policy framework that sets hon. Members, every one of whom gave an example of out our expectations for how the NHS should engage the exciting breakthroughs and areas of application of with researchers and innovators when entering data-sharing AI, as well as of what it can deliver for patients. That is partnerships. That builds on the work of the code of incredibly exciting. conduct for data-driven health and care technology. We I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley are committed to involving patients and the public in (Henry Smith) for securing this debate. He made the the development of that policy. That is key and comes point about misinformation and fake news. We need back to the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge more of these debates because Westminster Hall, and (Daniel Zeichner). Patients must be at the heart of and this place as a whole, is a good forum to knock down engaged in projects, understanding how their data will those myths, get rid of fake news and stop fearmongering be used in future and reassured of its safety. about the use of AI, because journalists who are interested To support the NHS in embedding the framework in in AI will follow these debates and quote what hon. practice, we will also set up a national centre of expertise. Members say. We should have more debates on this The centre will sit in NHSX and provide hands-on subject in future. commercial and legal expertise to NHS organisations to 173WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 174WH support them in reaching fair, ethical and transparent will collaborate widely to identify impactful ways to agreements for data. Although AI has been the subject improve the NHS through more sophisticated use of its of much speculative reporting, on both benefits and data. Once identified, the lab will develop, test and risks, we know that it will bring big changes to the way deploy early-stage software solutions to be handed over in which care is developed and experienced. to the NHS to implement at scale. While we promote the latest data-driven scientific The operations of the AI lab will align to the core advances in healthcare, we must always ensure that values of the NHS. Most relevant to this debate, the AI patient data is respected and properly protected. Data is lab will protect patient privacy—to go back to the vital to the delivery of safe and high-quality care, but substantive concern expressed by the hon. Member for we need to ensure that an understandable and trusted Cambridge in his speech. The AI lab will sit within the system is in place, which patients can be confident will NHS and will protect patient data. It will also guarantee protect their data. The Government are clear that patient that the value of the healthcare data is retained by the data will only ever be used and/or shared when anonymised, UK public. or with the consent of the individual, unless for direct As well as ensuring that the technology meets the patient care. That is an important point and one that highest standards and sufficiently stringent regulation, almost everyone made. we must ensure that the public are aware of that technology. We have therefore put in place several safeguards, The public must understand the principles well enough including legislation such as the Data Protection Act 2018, to be confident in a particular technology’s capabilities, enacting GDPR; data and cyber-security standards irrespective of the statistical evidence supporting it. For applicable across the health and care system; and legislation the NHS to maintain the confidence that the UK public that is under way to put the National Data Guardian on place in its brand, it must ensure that the apps and a statutory footing to provide an independent and data-driven technologies that it recommends are examples authoritative voice on how data is used across the of the best practice, not simply in transparency but in health and care system. We have also launched the what they do and where the personal data goes. national data opt-out, which gives individuals choice of There is now an opportunity for the UK to do that how their data is used beyond their individual care. well, making the UK’s standards for MedTech an That gives patients choice, which is important. international benchmark, strengthening the position of In some instances, it will be appropriate for patient digital health in the UK and enabling it to make great data to be shared for secondary purposes, such as when leaps forward. As I mentioned, the National Data Guardian consent has been given on behalf of the patient, or and NHSX will work together to produce clarifications there is an overwhelming public interest in sharing. The on the circumstances in which it is appropriate to share National Data Guardian is supporting work with NHSX data. We recognise the findings of the “Putting patients to clarify and update guidance on the lawful use of patient at the heart of Artificial Intelligence” report produced data to support the understanding of the public, clinicians by the all-party parliamentary group on heart and and industry. We do not want to hinder the progression circulatory diseases and its calls for greater public of innovations, but all patient data should be handled engagement to avoid a souring of opinion on AI. We will with the respect and care that the public rightly expect. continue to engage patients in the design and development We are also very aware of the ethical issues that can of AI, where appropriate, and to raise the profile of the be raised by artificial intelligence at a personal, group effectiveness and efficacy of using AI to provide health and system level. Bias is a current common issue with and care. the use of AI, and we must curtail any bias within I will now go on to the points made by Members and algorithms by ensuring that the data feeding them reflects their requests for reassurance. My hon. Friend the our diverse population and range of health economies. Member for Crawley asked how an NHS organisation Initiatives such as DeepMind’s ethics and society research investing in the new technologies would be rewarded. group and the Partnership on AI, which counts IBM, We are investigating how best to do that by engaging Microsoft, Facebook and Amazon among its members, with commissioners, clinicians, business and academics. show that industry is alive to the issues. We are already We will announce more detail in due course. taking steps to ensure the safe development, deployment and use of AI, and the published code of conduct for The hon. Member for Cambridge asked for an assurance data-driven health and care technology that I mentioned that the additional NHS funding that has been announced earlier encourages technology companies to meet a will go ahead. Yes, the additional funding will go ahead, gold-standard set of principles to protect patient data but we are still investigating how best to distribute it. to the highest standards. My assurance to him is that, yes, the funding will be distributed. He himself highlighted the complexity of NHSX announced that it would set up an “AI lab” to ensuring the fair distribution of such funding. bring together the industry’s best academics, specialists and technology companies to build groundbreaking My hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire diagnostic tools and treatments in line with the NHS’s (Lee Rowley) mentioned mitigating the risks. I hope priorities. NHSX is delivering the Prime Minister’s grand that I covered that in my speech. A huge amount is challenge mission to use data, artificial intelligence and going into mitigating such risks. For example, the innovation to transform the prevention, early diagnosis Information Commissioner provides anonymisation and treatment of chronic diseases by 2030. guidance. I also refer to the points I have already made The NHS AI lab will harness the power of data about NHSX. science and AI to continue the UK’s great tradition of The Scottish National party spokesman, the hon. using evidence-based decisions in health, public health Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow and social care, and to position the NHS as a world (Dr Cameron) talked about mental health and patients. leader in artificial intelligence and machine learning. It This morning, I heard about a great example of AI 175WH Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 176WH

[Ms Nadine Dorries] Hernia Mesh in Men helping a patient suffering with dementia. It is being used to track normal movement and behaviours. When something different or unusual happens in the home to [DAVID HANSON in the Chair] cause concern, an alert is sent out to a first carer who can be on the scene immediately. That is another 3 pm great use. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I beg to move, The hon. Lady also asked what we were doing about 5G. I will not try to wing this one, but will simply repeat That this House has considered hernia mesh in men. the answer that my officials gave me word for word: we I have brought this issue to the House because, to be are working closely with the Department for Digital, truthful, I was not aware of this problem among men. I Culture, Media and Sport, which is leading test beds—is am well aware of the hernia mesh issue for women, and that right?—for 5G in Liverpool and Birmingham, showing have represented their viewpoint for a number of years how it can improve access to services and exchange of in this House and back home, where the Northern information between patients and clinicians. Ireland health service has responsibility. I asked for this The hon. Lady also asked about international debate after a number of gentlemen came to see me collaboration. NHSX will engage with the World Health some months ago—I will give a little background on Organisation through the Global Digital Health that in a few minutes. Partnership, and the Medicines and Healthcare Products I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting Regulatory Agency has a strong tradition of international this topic for debate. Back in July I accepted its offer of engagement with both the US’s Food and Drug this first Thursday back, even though I know it is the Administration and the European Union, which is key graveyard shift, unless there is a three-line Whip in the to solving difficult regulatory questions. main Chamber. Given today’s one-line Whip, many In conclusion, I reiterate that AI’spotential to transform Members have returned home after everything that has the way in which we deliver health and care in the UK is happened in the last two days. None the less, I am very huge.Advancements in diagnosis,treatments and prevention pleased to bring this matter to Westminster Hall. I am facilitated by AI will provide frontline NHS staff with also pleased to see the Minister in her place. This will be more time to spend providing care to those who need it a hat-trick of debates for her—one yesterday and two most. Through our involvement in the Prime Minister’s today. I look forward to her response. grand challenge, the AI lab and our work with the I raised this issue after a meeting I had with some National Data Guardian, we will raise the profile of AI men in Northern Ireland. My party colleague and health as a health and care project, and ensure that the public spokesperson in the Northern Ireland Assembly, Paula are fully aware of both its benefits and the expectations Bradley, who represents North Belfast, initially made they should place on the NHS. me aware of the issue. My hon. Friend the Member for In the last few seconds, would my hon. Friend the Upper Bann (David Simpson) also brought it to my Member for Crawley like to wind up? attention, as he had met constituents to discuss the matter. It is only over the past nine months that I have Ian Paisley (in the Chair): Order. I decide who is been aware of it. The men I met that day were aged called to wind up. between 30 and about 55. I understand that in Northern Ireland some 400 men have had problems, and the Ms Dorries: Sorry, Mr Paisley. number across Great Britain will be even higher. They outlined their experiences and the difficulties that they Ian Paisley (in the Chair): You have about 30 seconds attributed to hernia mesh. I thought that their problems to wind up, Mr Smith. should be considered in this place, as those problems have been replicated throughout the United Kingdom. 2.59 pm The matter has been brought to the attention of the Department of Health and Social Care. The hon. Member Henry Smith: Thank you very much again for your for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), the chairmanship, Mr Paisley. Scots nats spokesperson, is aware of the issue and will I sincerely thank the hon. Members for Cambridge offer his experience. I will not steal his speech, but I (Daniel Zeichner), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and for understand he will tell us a wee bit about what he has East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron), experienced personally and about the health service in my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire Scotland. I am also pleased to see the shadow spokesperson, (Lee Rowley), and the Opposition spokesman, the hon. the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper), for their contributions (Mrs Hodgson), in her place. to this important debate. I congratulate the Minister, and I welcome her to her well-deserved position. Iurgethatseriousconsiderationbegiventoaninvestigation, on the same scale as the Australian investigation, and The key word I heard was “trust”, and as we go that action be taken after the findings are collated. forward with AI, we need to instil that for patients. Australia took action, and I hope the Minister will Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). assure me that the Government will do the same. I promised my constituents and those 400 men across Northern Ireland who have had problems with hernia mesh that I would raise awareness in this House because, unfortunately, we do not have a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly so cannot raise the issue there. 177WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 178WH

In November 2018, the Health Issues Centre undertook explain the physical, emotional and mental effect. The social research to investigate adverse health experiences people I met were very clear that in the vast numbers of among Australian men and women who had undergone cases that they knew of, there were several serious a medical device implant. The research was product problems. The vast majority of respondents—87% of non-specific, to identify any devices that demonstrated them—did not feel that they were given enough information a pattern of failure. Many hernia operations are successful. before their treatment to give informed consent. Indeed, In our job as elective representatives, people do not tell they were never told about the risks and the impacts. us how good things are; they tell us their complaints. They were not aware of any problems. Therefore,we do not always hear about the successful hernia A senior member of the Conservative party—I will mesh implants, but we certainly hear about the problems. not mention his name—told me yesterday, “I have had a The issue was highlighted on the “Victoria Derbyshire” hernia mesh implant, but mine was successful.” Many programme on 26 December 2018. A spokesperson from are successful, but we should highlight those that are the Royal College of Surgeons said that hernia mesh not.Some91%of respondentssufferongoingpost-operative complications “affect more than 100,000” people. They chronic pain as well as other health impacts. For example, went on to say: some of the men who spoke to me have had serious “It is clearly tragic if even a single patient suffers horrible bouts of depression and allergic reactions. Only 8.7% of complications from any type of surgery, not just hernia operations. respondents said that they had had successful treatment Unfortunately the nature of surgery in general, not just mesh to address the problematic outcome of the operation. surgery, carries with it an inherent risk of complications which Past cases of mine have involved women who have surgeons will always seek to assess, and will discuss with patients according to their individual clinical circumstances before surgery had mesh operations, which are intimate operations. I takes place. have had cases of ladies who have been unable to work It is important to make a distinction between groin hernia, the or keep relationships going. They have been unable to most commonly carried out repair and other forms of abdominal cope with life, so the impacts of hernia mesh when it wall repair where a hernia has arisen, for example, in an incision goes wrong are very real. or scar after a previous operation. These are more difficult and Men represented some 70% of the respondents to the the complications rates are much higher. survey. Those figures are from Australia, of course, but A recent 2018 study found that both mesh and non-mesh I just want to illustrate the matter. I will move on to the hernia repairs were effective for patients and are not associated United Kingdom, but those figures are relevant. with different rates of chronic pain. The Victoria Derbyshire programme is right to point out how a minority of hernia mesh Years ago in Northern Ireland a man developed a operations are associated with complications. However, it is also limp four years after surgery. People told him, “We have important to stress that such complications range dramatically experienced pain as a result of similar surgery.”Damien from minor and correctable irritations to the more serious Murtagh, who lives in Banbridge and has given me complications highlighted in its programme. Complications can permission to tell his story, has been left with a limp as a also occur with non-mesh hernia repairs, and by not operating on a hernia at all. It is extremely important that patients are given the result of his operation six years ago. He said: full picture by surgeons, regulators, and the media.” “For years no one could tell me what is causing this pain. I can A large number of studies have looked at the available no longer ride my bike, go fishing, I work part-time”, treatments, but unfortunately we do not have all the because of the chronic pain and the effect it has had on appropriate information. The spokesperson continued: his lifestyle. He continued: “There have already been a number of scientific studies looking “The pain in the lower stomach and groin area makes me feel at the use of different types of mesh in hernia and we should physically sick. I have no private life.” continue to review the evidence and patients’ experiences to make It has been difficult for him to maintain relationships sure the right advice is given and the right action is taken. Along with other people. The issues caused off the back of the with the regulatory authorities, we will continue to listen to patients’ experiences. Patients suffering complications or pain surgery are genuine and life changing. need help, not silence.” I find it odd that this surgery can create such problems. That is very important and we must underline that I am not a medical professional. I can make no judgment point. They continued: about the operations, but I can ask whether they should “There must also be an ongoing review of the data to make continue without the assurance that every possible sure that previous studies have not missed any serious, widespread investigation has been carried out into the prolonged issue. It remains vital that surgeons continue to make patients side effects. The patients should know, at every stage, aware of all the possible side effects associated with performing a the potential implications if the operation does not go hernia repair.” as planned. Those gentlemen who came to see me earlier this year Figures specific to the United Kingdom also outline to ld me that they were not aware of the complications. the problem. In a survey of 653 people, 18.8% said that I will give an example a little later. I do not want to they had developed antibiotic-resistant infections as a criticise surgeons because they are under incredible result of mesh complications. A person’s general health pressure, but people have told me that they were not can go down dramatically. Some 40% of respondents aware of the ins and outs and relevant information, so I described their pain levels at worst to be 10 out of 10. believe there is a case to answer. Usually, 10 out of 10 means someone is doing well, but The Health Issues Centre inquiry specifically focused in this case it means they are not and that they are in on people who had suffered a hernia, to better understand severe pain. In addition, 85.6% of respondents said that the nature and the impact of adverse outcomes. Over a they could not sleep because of the pain. The men told period of four weeks, 183 respondents reported hernia me that their sleep patterns had been destroyed. They mesh-related injury across a range of brands and of are in constant, nagging pain that never leaves them. categories of hernia. Several serious problems with When it gets to that stage and someone’s personal life is hernia mesh implants arose, too. It is hard sometimes to so affected, we have to look very seriously at the issue. 179WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 180WH

[Jim Shannon] I congratulate and thank the men for making their information and backgrounds known. I also thank my The problems of lack of information are not specific colleagues from my own party who took the time to let to Australia. Some 91.7% of respondents were not even me know about their individual cases. When we hear told that they would be getting a mesh implant. Some their stories,we clearly see how their lives have been changed. did not even know what was happening. They went for In the United Kingdom study, 27.6% of respondents the operation and knew there would be a repair job; had been formally diagnosed with a mental health they accepted that, but they were not aware of the condition such as PTSD, which can affect people in implications. Some 96.2% said they were not shown the many different ways, and 4.7% said that they had self- mesh implant that they were about to be given, while harmed because of mesh complications. That is probably 91.7% were not told that the mesh implant was made of off the back of the depression and the pain that becomes plastic, and 98% said they were not told the size of the almost unbearable. I never realised just how much pain mesh implant. When it comes to serious operations—in can affect people. I met a lady who had a problem most cases it is probably a minor operation, but it has following an operation—it was nothing to do with the potential to change lives—we need to make sure hernia mesh. The pain was so bad that she asked for her that patients are aware of such things. right knee to be taken off to remove the pain. Doing Patients feel that they are not being told the risks of that removed the pain, because that is where the pain the surgery and the potential issues. We understand that was, but it was a dramatic step to take, so when people that is partly because a decision is made when the start to self-harm, as some have said they have, because patient is open and the need dictates the method; sometimes of the mesh complications, we must take serious cognizance a decision has to be taken when the operation is at an of what has happened. advanced stage and it might not be possible to let the Some 24.3% of respondents had psychotherapy or person know. I understand the pressures that surgeons counselling as a result of mesh complications. Again, and their staff are under, but I feel that an essential part the counselling was to try to stop them self-harming, of the care is an understanding of what to expect, and and to help them to deal with a physical, surgical problem that can make a difference to the outcome. It would that would be long-term. Almost half of respondents— certainly have made a difference to the 400 men in 43.6%—revealed that they had suicidal thoughts, which Northern Ireland who have experienced problems. It underlines their clear anxiety and the importance of would certainly have changed their lives if they had doing something; and 4.7% had tried to take their own known about the implications for them. None the less, lives. Unfortunately, nearly every day of the week we we find ourselves in a very difficult position, and they elected representatives deal, in our offices, with people find themselves physically, mentally and emotionally suffering depression and anxiety, whatever the reasons changed. For some of them, their relationships have may be. We understand what drives people to the brink broken down as well. of despair. It can be money issues, marital problems, Informed consent is fundamental to any surgery. I family issues or a physical problem, as in the case we are had three minor operations in 2017 and, to be honest, I considering. The figures reveal the dark reality of post- would have signed any paper just to get the operations operation life for many of the respondents, and reinforce over because the pain was so extreme. At the end of the the urgency of the issue, which needs to be addressed as day, you sign the paper and you understand. In my case, soon as possible. That is why I have brought the matter it was a straightforward operation on the three occasions. to the House for consideration, and it is why the Backbench Business Committee was pleased to provide an opportunity I mentioned Damien from Banbridge earlier. Outlining to highlight it. Many complications surround the issue his case could help people make the all-important decision of hernia mesh surgery, and there is a need to give to go ahead with surgery, knowing that there could urgent attention to solving them. The figures more than possibly be some serious downsides, although not in reinforce that point. every case. That would be a more ideal situation for the I mentioned the effect on families. The gentlemen patients, rather than being struck with post-operation who came to see me and my colleague, Paula Bradley issues without having been aware of the risks. At least MLA, on the occasion I spoke of, were able to tell me they would know that they had taken the risk, not the something about that. More often than not, when someone surgeon, who they might feel had hidden the risk from is sick or ill or having problems they are not the only them. It is a natural reaction. It is not pointing the one travelling that road; their wife or partner and family finger or judgmental. I stress again that in no way can I travel it with them, so there are also family issues. ever accuse surgical teams of deliberately withholding Post-operation care is prevalent among the issues, and information from their patients. 33.1% of respondents in the UK survey said that their In an ideal world, post-operative problems would not partner was now their carer. When we get married we exist and the NHS and private hospitals, which some know it is for better or for worse—and sometimes a patients are transferred to, would be able to shape the partner becomes a carer.Clearly that is a great responsibility surgery in such a way that the pain that many patients for them. Three per cent. of respondents said that they cite would not occur. Problems created by surgery have had to put their parents into a retirement home as a knock-on effects. Physical problems quickly become result of mesh complications and problems with the mental problems. If Members had heard the stories of surgery. People would obviously have loyalty and feel a the gentlemen I met, they would understand where the duty to try to look after them, so that tells me, and should mental problems come from. The pain is absolutely tell everyone present in the Chamber, that clearly the unbearable. Many experience depression as a result of problem affects all the family. If one suffers, all suffer. surgery.They all cite anxiety,panic attacks and nightmares, I have been told that there are clear problems associated and—this is serious—some people hear things that are with mesh implants that need to be addressed. We are not there. It clearly affects them mentally. dealing with issues, following the surgery, that people 181WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 182WH believe are related to it. They include adverse mental over the years, and I have learned an immense amount health issues and the fact that 78.4% of people experience about issues that I did not know about. This, however, is depression—more than three quarters of the people in one of which I have had some personal experience. question. For the people I met, depression was clearly Indeed, in my personal life since I have been in Parliament now a part of life. Some had stopped work altogether. I have had two such hernia mesh operations—in my Family relationships had broken down; they were no case, both successful. However, 2015 and 2018 are well longer able to hold them together. Some 40.7% of within the timeframe that the hon. Gentleman highlighted, respondents said that their child acted as a temporary in which people have developed complications. So far, carer. I know the good things that many children do for touch wood, everything has gone fine. parents and perhaps siblings, but whenever a child, Hernias are fairly common operations. They usually growing up, who should be enjoying childhood and go without any problem, but not everyone has the same focusing on their education, must be a temporary carer, experience, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for there are clearly issues to address. Some men cannot highlighting the issue as it affects men. Health issues have children after surgery, as some of the men I met are, of course, devolved in Scotland, and the Scottish told me. That is another issue that means we need to National party Scottish Government have a strong record hasten an investigation. of ensuring that no one suffers unduly from mesh. In There is also a need to address the issue of post-operative 2014, the SNP Government requested a suspension of pain that lasts many years. I understand that what I the use of medical mesh by the NHS in Scotland, have said is perhaps topical and anecdotal. The hon. pending safety investigations, and in 2015 the Cabinet Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk will tell the Secretary for Health and Sport, Shona Robison, apologised House about some of the cases, but it is clear to me to women who had been left in severe pain by such from meeting the men I have mentioned, and from the operations. Between 2009 and 2016, the number of evidence that I have seen, that some hernia mesh operations women receiving mesh surgery in Scotland fell from in men have led to serious physical problems. That is 2,267 to just 135. why I have brought the matter forward today for An independent review published in March last year consideration. It is the reason for this debate in Westminster in Scotland made eight recommendations—notably that Hall today. surgical mesh implants should be used only after all other We need a governmental investigation, and there appropriate alternatives have been exhausted. Scotland’s must be a directive to do that, and funding to enable it chief medical officer accepted those recommendations to happen. That is why I look to the Minister. I hope in full. that we will get a helpful response. I hope that in the The hon. Member for Strangford mentioned people future all the post-operation issues with hernia mesh not being told adequately about the potential complications. surgery can be resolved. I hope that the NHS will I have to be honest: having been through the process receive appropriate funding to tackle mental health myself, I probably agree. We were told some things, but issues caused by the surgery. I am very pleased that in a patient suffering from a hernia is more concerned the Chancellor’s statement yesterday he reaffirmed the about when they will get their operation and be able to commitment to spending on health—I think it was get back on with their life, so they probably do not pay £34 billion. Is the Minister in a position to suggest that appropriate attention to what is a fairly minor risk. some of that money could be focused on enabling the Perhaps that risk needs to be emphasised to people, or investigation to happen, and getting the data to try to they need to be reminded at a later stage in the process; address the issue? The mental health issues can never be as I know from experience, it can take a while after ignored, any more than the physical ones. Perhaps the having seen the consultant to get the operation. NHS will be able to improve the surgery process so that Although health is devolved, the regulation of mesh patients will not have to cope with being left in serious is a reserved matter. We therefore call on the UK pain for years and perhaps for ever afterwards. Government urgently to review its effects and to legislate Now that the issue has been raised it is important accordingly. Although regulation of these devices is that it gets the attention that it deserves and that the reserved, we really need a UK-wide clinical audit database problems are tackled. I again ask the Minister—and she for recording device identifiers. We were pleased with knows I do so respectfully and sincerely—whether we the review of the guidelines for mesh following the can start the process of answering the questions and finding by the National Institute for Health and Care providing empirical data on the side effects of hernia Excellence that the evidence for the long-term efficacy mesh in the United Kingdom. I know that her responsibility of vaginal mesh implants was inadequate in quantity is to the mainland, but the inquiry will have to start and quality, but we would like to see a review of the use somewhere, and I hope that it starts here. of mesh to repair hernias. Scottish Government officials are working with UK David Hanson (in the Chair): The hon. Member for colleagues to consider the possibility of an automated Strangford (Jim Shannon) has summarised the case implant registry,which would allow unique device identifiers very succinctly. We move seamlessly to Front-Bench to be entered on the patient’s electronic record. The responses. I call Mr Martyn Day. SNP hopes that Ministers will be willing to work with their counterparts in the devolved Administrations and 3.28 pm consider a UK-wide summit on that issue. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): It It is imperative that the highest possible standards for is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, mesh are maintained. EU regulation 2017/745 on medical Mr Hanson. I am grateful to the hon. Member for devices will change mesh implants for long-term or Strangford (Jim Shannon) for introducing the debate. permanent use from class IIb to class III devices, meaning He has a brought a number of debates to the House they are generally regarded as high risk. Those regulations 183WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 184WH

[Martyn Day] As I have said in debates about vaginal mesh, if a car, a washing machine or a drier failed in such numbers, will not take effect until 2020, after the date on which there would be a full recall and sales would cease the Government desire to leave the EU.How will important immediately, no ifs or buts. Research shows that between EU regulations to monitor the use of devices across EU 10% and 15% of people who have hernia mesh surgery territories be implemented or reflected in UK law and suffer from chronic pain and complications after the regulation after Brexit? I reiterate that it is important surgery. That is just not acceptable. That is not a tiny that we maintain the highest possible standards, and I number of people—it is not just the odd one—and it is look forward to the Minister’s comments on that. devastating for the lives of every one of them. When I saw the title of the debate, I knew my Whips According to NHS data, 10% of people who have would be in touch because I had personal experience; hernia mesh fitted go back to their clinician at some having missed various other engagements while waiting point after their surgery. Some surgical experts claim for my operations, I knew I could not get out of doing that complications occur in as many as 30% of hernia this. In some parts I feel more mesh than man, but as I mesh surgeries, and that those can be every bit as say, so far, so very successful. harmful as with vaginal mesh. Until today, hernia mesh patients have not had their voices heard, because the 3.32 pm extent of the problem is just not measured. What assessment has the Minister made of the number of complications Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland following hernia mesh surgery, and what consideration West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your has she given to establishing a hernia mesh database to chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I thank the hon. Member audit the number of surgeries and any associated for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for securing the debate complications? and for his characteristically passionate, thought-provoking and knowledgeable speech. Although, for all the reasons The lack of data collection means patients cannot he gave, the debate is not heavily subscribed, it is an adequately be informed about the risks before surgery. I extremely important debate about an issue we have not hope that changes as a result of the debate. Hon. yet addressed in this place. I know that all the men and, Members may have heard of Dai Greene, a world-class indeed, women watching—be they wives, partners, family hurdler who captained the Great Britain athletics team members or mesh sufferers themselves—will thank him at the 2012 Olympic games and was subsequently treated for bringing this issue before the House too. I also with hernia mesh. He says he cannot remember being thank the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk warned about any associated risks but was told he (Martyn Day) for his remarks on behalf of the SNP. would be back training after a few weeks. That was not to be the case: Greene lost five years of his career due to I welcome the Minister to her new role. We were both complications after the surgery. elected in 2005—I remember seeing her at the induction on my first day—but I think this is the first time we have We all trust that surgery will be safe for patients and faced each other speaking from our respective Front will improve their quality of life. Patients trust that they Benches in this capacity. I look forward to shadowing will be informed of any associated risks. With vaginal her on some of her policy areas and to holding her and hernia mesh, that has not been the case for thousands Government to account on all things public health and of patients. How will the Minister address these serious patient safety, which tends to be the area I cover. I also concerns? Patient safety and trust must not be compromised look forward to her response to the debate, but first I in favour of a cheap or quick procedure. My mam was have some questions of my own for her. told, “Oh, it’ll be 15 minutes that will change your life.” My word, it changed her life—but not for the better. As the hon. Member for Strangford said, we have had a number of debates in this Chamber and the main I understand that the independent medicines and Chamber about the impact of vaginal mesh on women— medical devices safety review is due to report its findings including, sadly, as I am sure Members have heard, my soon. I attended one of its sessions in Newcastle with own mam. She is a sufferer of vaginal mesh, which I my mam. It was very well attended, as I believe they all have spoken about at length in other debates. Although were. Baroness Cumberlege was there, and she was very this debate is about hernia mesh in men, it is clear, as the attentive and compassionate to all the women in attendance. hon. Gentleman said, that there are similarities between I look forward to her report. Hernia mesh is not included the two that need to be addressed. First, the devices are in the review, but given the parallels between vaginal made of the same material—usually polypropylene plastic, and hernia mesh, which have been highlighted not just which is also used for plastic bottles. It is hard to believe today but consistently— the hon. Member for Strangford that it is being inserted inside people; obviously, we are cited Victoria Derbyshire, who has also done great now hearing about the damage that causes. The other work on this issue—the Minister should consider the similarities are a lack of data and a lack of information review’s findings in the light of this debate and treat about the risks for patients, both of which cause harm hernia mesh with the same seriousness as vaginal mesh. to patients. Will the Minister work with NICE and NHS England As we heard, the majority of hernia mesh operations to ensure that patients are clearly informed in good time are successful, and the Royal College of Surgeons states before surgery about the risks associated with their that the implants remain “the most effective way” to treatment so that they can make properly informed treat a hernia. However, that does not mean we should decisions, with updates on risks as research develops? ignore the patients who tell us that the operation caused This is about patient safety and confidence, which is them extreme pain and discomfort. The surgery might paramount to our NHS. be successful in the sense that it repairs the hernia, but if In closing, I welcome again the Minister to her role. I it causes extreme pain and life-changing symptoms for appreciate that this week must have been a baptism of some patients, it cannot be right to call it successful. fire, trying to get on top of so many issues. I understand 185WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 186WH that she has had to respond to three debates—as the The bowel can come through the opening in the hon. Gentleman said, she has got a hat-trick. Nevertheless, muscle wall, strangulate and develop into peritonitis, I hope she will address these concerns today and take with dire consequences. The fact is that the alternative away any that she cannot. No doubt, we will revisit this method of repair—just to stitch the muscle wall—is issue for debate at a later date. nowhere near as effective, and the same dangers can present. There can be a rupture, and the hernia will 3.40 pm present again with the same complications. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ms Nadine Dorries): It is a pleasure to Mrs Hodgson: The Minister,with her medical knowledge, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I was alarmed can give the details on hernia repairs in men that when you walked in, because I think you have held more otherwise would have been missing from the debate. ministerial posts than anyone else in the House of The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) speaks Commons—or you are pretty close to holding the record, from his experience. Although I do not want to be a anyway. So to have you in the Chair, judging me as a harbinger of doom, for him it is very early days; often Minister, is quite daunting. the pain that comes in 10% to 15% of cases appears a I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) few years later, as the hon. Member for Strangford said for bringing up this important debate. You always bring in his speech. The Minister rightly points out that it is a debates to the Chamber that you are heartfelt and good operation for what is a life-threatening condition passionate about. That is so important. It is a delight to in men, as opposed to stress incontinence in women, beoppositethehon.MemberforWashingtonandSunderland but still in 10% to 15% of cases we are talking about real West (Mrs Hodgson). We have both been in this place pain. I would like her to elaborate on what we should do for 15 years, and I know that you also bring the same about that. passion and commitment. You always speak from your heart. We might be a bit similar in that way. Ms Dorries: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. No one should suffer with chronic pain. There is a difference DavidHanson(intheChair):Order.“You”referstome. between acute and chronic pain, with acute pain happening Ms Dorries: Of course, Mr Hanson. I am amazed immediately post operation and the chronic pain continuing that after 10 years in the Chair I make these mistakes—it afterwards. In inguinal mesh repair operations, the chronic is because I am nervous. I am delighted to serve opposite pain is due to the mesh—like a small piece of net the hon. Lady; it will be great. curtain—rubbing up against nerve endings and causing inflammation. For many men, the pain is quickly cured This is a serious subject. It is incredibly important to by an injection of local anaesthetic such as lignocaine hear the voices of patients who have suffered as a result with a steroid, which reduces the inflammation and of inguinal hernia mesh repair operations, because without takes away the pain completely. For many men who allowing those patients to be heard, we cannot move present back in out-patients, their pain is quickly sorted. forward to find solutions to deal with this issue. I will go off-piste from my speech, because there has been some I do not want it to sound as though I am trivialising conflation during the debate of vaginal mesh repair for in any way the problems of those who continue to suffer the purpose of urinary incontinence and inguinal mesh pain. I believe that the Cumberlege report covers mesh repair for an inguinal hernia. The two operations are as a wider issue, as well as issues related to the use of entirely different and have completely different outcomes. mesh, so we may gather more information from the Vaginal mesh repair is for urinary incontinence. Inguinal report that will inform the debate on inguinal hernia mesh repair is for hernia, and without repair, there is a mesh repair. possibility of death. That is because of the pattern of There are, however, other options. The best practice development of an inguinal hernia. It is due to a break is shared decision making between the patient and the in the muscle wall. The hernia is a part of the bowel that clinician, with the clinician fully explaining the operation comes through the muscle wall, and it can quickly to the patient, what is involved and what the options strangulate and develop into peritonitis. The result of are. One option for patients who present with a hernia is that can be death. for the clinician to reduce it in the clinic back in through the muscle wall. At that point, the patient may know Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I join the debate how to handle it and manage it by not over-exercising late on, but perhaps I can be the example the Minister is and being careful when they cough. The patient will be looking for. I had a double hernia just a few months ago registered as having had a hernia reduced and, if they that was treated at Queen’s Hospital in my constituency, want it operated on, they just ring up and go straight on where I received fantastic care. Mesh was used to repair to the operating list. That is a good option for many a double hernia, which I got as a result of doing too men if they think they can carefully and responsibly much exercise—I am not as fit or strong as I thought I manage the hernia and come back to hospital only if it was. I was nervous about having mesh because I had gets worse, if it pops again or if they need immediate heard all the rumours about how damaging it could be, attention. Whatever happens, they will be registered as so I questioned the consultant and surgeon. For me, it having had an inguinal hernia and seen a clinician and was brilliant: it meant keyhole surgery and a quicker therefore in need of treatment should it reoccur. recovery. I say to all those men out there who might be going in for a hernia operation: do not dismiss mesh, Weare encouraging clinicians to have that conversation because it makes the operation simpler and the recovery with patients. I do not know whether the clinicians time quicker. I recommend it. treating my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) did, but clinicians should do so that patients Ms Dorries: I thank my hon. Friend for his absolute can decide whether they want to go ahead with an honesty and openness in bringing forward his own case. operation. 187WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 188WH

Andrew Griffiths: I had exactly that conversation: it evidence was reviewed by NICE in February 2016 and was my choice whether I had an operation and how I the recommendations have remained in place since then. managed it. Also, it was just four months between The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory seeing my GP and having the keyhole surgery at my Agency and others will continue to review the situation local hospital, which took an afternoon. The service at as further evidence and analysis emerges, and will take the hospital was brilliant; I cannot praise it enough. any appropriate action on that basis. That is why this debate and the recounting of the experiences of constituents Ms Dorries: I am delighted to hear that. is important. They have ensured and will continue to I am pleased to say that shared decision making is set ensure the safety of patients who need treatment. out in the NHS long-term plan and I hope we will see Unfortunately, no type of surgery is without risk, more of it in other areas. As the hon. Member for both during and post surgery. The right balance between Strangford mentioned, it has the full backing of the risks and benefits for individual patients must be achieved, Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College of which places patient autonomy and consent at its heart. Anaesthetists. I know from my own experiences in the I stress that I am deeply concerned to hear about health service that the role of patient voices is critical at instances where these conversations maynot have happened, every stage along the treatment pathway. Indeed, as we or have not been conducted in a manner that sufficiently have said, the Government have asked Baroness Cumberlege informs the patient. Every patient should expect to to lead a review on the theme of patients’ voices. I will receive safe and effective care, and to have an opportunity say more about that later. to raise concerns and feel confident that they will be All of us, including Ministers, regulators and clinicians, listened to. must listen to patients, such as the constituent mentioned I will talk about the pain and suffering experienced by the hon. Member for Strangford who has had an by some men after mesh surgery. The vast majority of ongoing problem, when they raise concerns. Only by patients who undergo surgery using mesh to treat hernias listening to those patients’ voices and understanding the go on to live normal, independent lives. While we do issues they have after hernia repair can we learn and not know the exact number of complications, we believe develop what we need to do to ensure that it does not it is low.However, I understand that those who experience happen to people in the future. We must strike a fine the most adverse outcomes are those who suffer chronic balance as we steer through innovation, emerging science, pain or long-term discomfort. clinical advice and the voices of a multitude of patients. I have been advised that 10% to 12% of men experience Hernias are relatively common. One in five men will moderate to severe chronic pain post surgery. While get an inguinal hernia in their lifetime and it is worthwhile that number is high, it is lower than for those who have briefly outlining why men are mostly affected. Inguinal non-mesh repair. I have been advised that acute pain is hernias are a type of groin hernia, which are the most normal during healing, but chronic pain is not normal. common type of hernia. Some 98% of them are found As I said, one example of pain management is to treat in men, as the male anatomy is particularly vulnerable chronic pain by injecting local anaesthetic and steroid. in this region. The main reason to operate on a hernia is Long-term discomfort or pain is fortunately rare, but to reduce the risk of bowel obstruction or necrosis, can still occur in one in 20 inguinal hernia repairs. which is tissue death. Both of these conditions require While this number is still concerning, and, I believe, too major emergency surgery, where there is a risk of death. high, the risk is dependent on the circumstances of each Hernia surgery is therefore often a necessity. I have case. For example, there is an increased likelihood of it been advised by clinicians that when an individual’s where patients have small hernias and where the condition indicates surgery, mesh repair is the standard predominant symptom before the operation is pain. operation for adults with inguinal hernias. It is safer Patients present at the clinic with pain and continue to than non-mesh repair in the first instance and is less have the pain after the operation. Both these adverse likely to lead to pain post operation. It is also less likely outcomes—the severity and the longevity of pain—remind to lead to hernia recurrence. To address the point made us that regrettably complications can arise when any by the hon. Member for Strangford, I hope he understands person undergoes surgery. not only that this treatment is the most effective but that Mrs Hodgson: What we are establishing is that there the alternative is more likely to result in complications. are still many unknowns with regard to the numbers Mesh is therefore used in approximately 97% of all and when the pain occurs. That is what we need to drill surgical inguinal hernia repairs in England. down on. The hon. Member for Burton said that his All the expert scientific advice that Ministers have surgery has been totally successful, however many months received does not support a ban. It is important to it is since it took place. However, the problem is not just emphasise that internationally no other country has post-surgery. Often, as we have heard, people are fine banned the use of mesh to treat hernias. According to for two or three years and then suddenly, “Boom!”—they the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, are hit with whole host of pain and autoimmune reactions. approximately 70,000 surgical inguinal hernia repairs We need to drill down on that when we are looking at are performed in England each year, at a cost to the the problem. Will the Minister commit to trying to use NHS of £56 million a year. These mesh repairs are the data to do that? performed by either open surgery or laparoscopic surgery, Ms Dorries: I am hopeful that the Cumberlege report as my hon. Friend the Member for Burton described. will touch on that area to some degree. I will study the NICE has developed guidance which recommends report in some detail, as will officials in the Department, laparoscopic surgery as one of the treatment options and we will decide where we go from it, but I emphasise for the repair of inguinal hernia. The guidance states that the alternative of not having the mesh repair is that it should only be performed by appropriately trained more dangerous and has more complications, as we surgeons who regularly carry out the procedure. This know from the data, than having it. 189WH Hernia Mesh in Men 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Hernia Mesh in Men 190WH

JimShannon:Tofollowonfromtheshadowspokesperson’s David Hanson (in the Chair): Although we have finished question, has it been possible within the investigation early, the hon. Member for Strangford can have three and review to understand why the vast majority of minutes to respond should he wish to, but no more than people can have the operation without any side effects, three minutes. while a large number of people do? There were 400 such people in Northern Ireland. If we take that population across the whole country, that means about 24,000 people 4 pm across the rest of the United Kingdom, so the figures Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you very show a large number of people who have had problems. much, Mr Hanson. I will certainly take no longer than Is it possible to say why, or to investigate and ascertain three minutes. I had that advantage earlier on—I may why those problems take place, as they did in Australia? have taken advantage of it, but there we are. Three Ms Dorries: We will take that question away. I will minutes is more than enough. come back to the hon. Gentleman, because that is a First, I thank the hon. Member for Linlithgow and detailed question with more complexity in it than I East Falkirk for his contribution. If we wanted a headline could answer today. For those people who suffer from for the hon. Gentleman, it would be “More mesh than pain, is it alleviated by the steroid and local anaesthetic man” because of the number of operations he has had, injection? Are those numbers just people who present if he does not mind me saying so. back once with pain, or do they go on to have chronic long-term pain, and, as the hon. Member for Washington Martyn Day: I have said it. and Sunderland West says, come back three or four Jim Shannon: It was the hon. Gentleman’s quotation, years later? Some drilling down into that data is needed. so I am just quoting him again. He has personal knowledge Work is under way both within and independent of of what has taken place. Again, to be fair, his operation Government to improve safety and how we listen to patients, has been successful. The shadow spokesperson, the in order to gather the information to work with. In July, hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West, we launched the patient safety strategy, which sets out brought a lot of information to the debate. The problems the direction of travel for future patient safety. It was are really real. developed through speaking to not just staff and senior We set out two subjects in this debate: No. 1 was leaders but, importantly, patients from across the country. awareness, which is important, but No. 2 was that As much as it looks at system improvements, such as everyone should understand, before they have the operation, digital developments and new technologies, it also looks what the implications could be. That does not mean at culture, so that the NHS becomes ever more an that they will not go ahead with the operation, but it organisation with a just culture of openness to concerns, ensures that they understand it. The hon. Lady referred whether they are raised by patients, family members or to the “devastating” effect that this can have on lives. It staff. Concerns of all kinds should be welcomed, valued is not a quick or cheap procedure, either, and patient and acted on appropriately. safety is critical. Weare also waiting to hear back from the independent I thank the Minister for her response. She first confirmed medicines and medical devices safety review, which is led in her contribution that we are raising awareness, and by Baroness Cumberlege. The review examines how the secondly referred to a safety review. I appreciate that healthcare system has responded to concerns raised by and understand why.That does not in any way dismiss—no patients and families around three medical interventions, one can dismiss—those problems that have arisen out one of which is vaginal mesh. To do so, the review has of the hernia mesh operations in men as not real. I ask focused on meetings with a broad range of stakeholder her, if she has the opportunity, to perhaps look at the groups; I think the hon. Member for Washington and Australian investigation, although maybe she has already Sunderland West may have attended one of those with done so. her mother. I close by acknowledging just how difficult the subject Ms Dorries indicated assent. matter is. No one should suffer from chronic long-term pain without every effort being made to reduce it and Jim Shannon: There we are; the Minister is ahead of find out why it occurs in the first place. This is not an me there. Well done. That investigation might give us easy subject for men who are suffering from ongoing some ideas for what we could do here as well. pain to speak about. We know that men are always very I also thank the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew reluctant to come forward and go to the doctors about Griffiths), as always when he turns up, for his contribution. anything. I pay tribute to the many impassioned I know many people who have had the operation contributions of the brave men who have allowed their successfully, but my job here is to bring to the attention stories to be told, who have visited their MPs and of the Minister and this House the many others who contributed, because men are not good at sharing live with the mental, physical and emotional problems. information when it comes to their health. That is what this debate is about. I thank everyone for As I mentioned earlier, however, it is vital that the use their contributions, and I thank you, Mr Hanson, for of mesh to treat hernias continues. It remains the best chairing the meeting admirably, as you always do. course of action for patients where the appropriate treatment pathway leads to surgery.As with all treatment, Question put and agreed to. shared decision making should be central to this process. Resolved, It is vital that we continually examine the evidence That this House has considered hernia mesh in men. together on the best means of treatment. Decisions in healthcare are often about weighing potential benefits against risks, and I thank those in our healthcare system 4.3 pm who strive always to offer us the best treatment possible. Sitting adjourned.

15WS Written Statements 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 16WS

GAC will return to this agenda item in October and December, Written Statements while the European Council will discuss the follow-up to the strategic agenda at the October European Council. Commission communication on further strengthening the Rule of Thursday 5 September 2019 Law The Commission presented its new communication on further strengthening the rule of law in the EU which was adopted on 17 July. The proposals centred on the three pillars of promotion, EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION prevention and response and included a Commission-driven “Rule of Law Review Cycle” and an “Annual Rule of Law Review”. These proposals will engage all member states to prevent backtracking on the rule of law. General Affairs Council July 2019 Rule of law in Poland / Article 7 (1) TEU reasoned proposal The Commission provided a further update on the rule of law in Poland. This followed the recent judgment of the European The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting Court of Justice (ECJ) on Poland’s Supreme Court law. the European Union (James Duddridge): Lord Callanan, [HCWS1818] Minister of State for Exiting the European Union, has made the following statement: I represented the UK at the General Affairs Council (GAC) in Brussels on 18 July 2019. From September 1 until exit day, the HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL UK will no longer attend most EU meetings, in order to make the GOVERNMENT best possible use of UK resources. The UK is still committed to the duty of sincere cooperation and this decision is not intended in any way to frustrate the functioning of the EU. A provisional Building Safety report of the meeting and the conclusions adopted can be found on the Council of the European Union’s website at: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2019/07/18/ The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Multiannual financial framework 2021 – 2027 Local Government (Robert Jenrick): I updated the House The presidency presented its plan for approaching the next today in an oral statement on the Government’s progress phase of negotiations on the multiannual financial framework on building safety and set out this Administration’s (MFF) for 2021-27, and indicated its commitment to the European approach. As set out in the statement, I am consulting Council’s objective of concluding the MFF by the end of the on changes to fire safety regulations for new-build year. To prepare for discussions between EU Leaders on the MFF in October, the presidency outlined a new timetable for delivery blocks of flats. We will seek to commit to requiring and prepared a questionnaire for member states to complete over sprinkler systems as standard in a wider range of new the summer. The Commission welcomed the timetable and noted flats. We will also consult on requiring better signs and the need to consider the views of the new European Parliament. evacuation alert systems to support effective firefighting. Presentation of the priorities of the Finnish presidency A link to the consultation document “Sprinklers and other The presidency delivered a presentation on its priorities for the fire safety measures in new high-rise blocks of flats” next six months. The overarching priorities include strengthening is here https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/ common values and the rule of law; making the EU more sprinklers-and-other-fire-safety-measures-in-new-high- competitive and socially inclusive; strengthening the EU’s position rise-blocks-of-flats and I will deposit copies of this as a global leader in climate action; and protecting the security of consultation in the Library of the House. citizens comprehensively. Other issues to be discussed throughout [HCWS1820] 2019 in the GAC format include the MFF,rule of law, enlargement and hybrid threats. Implementation of the strategic agenda 2019-2024 Ministers discussed the implementation of the new EU strategic WORK AND PENSIONS agenda 2019-24. The strategic agenda was adopted by the European Council on 20 June 2019 and will guide the overarching priorities for the next institutional cycle. The priority areas are: protecting Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Act 2013 citizens and freedoms; developing a strong and vibrant economic base; building a climate-neutral green, fair and social Europe; and promoting European interests and values on the global stage. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Ministers discussed how the strategic agenda could be implemented. and Pensions (Mims Davies): I will, later today, lay a The discussion was guided by a presidency paper which provided draft remedial order to amend the Jobseekers (Back to an initial indication as to which Council configuration would Work Schemes) Act 2013, along with the Government consider the main issues and set out proposed timings for these discussions. Member states agreed on ensuring a coherent agenda statement, setting out our response to the report from across all three institutions; supported greater engagement with the Joint Committee on Human Rights and other citizens and national Parliaments through clear communication; representations my Department received on the proposal and stressed the importance of achieving concrete results. I for the draft order when this was laid in Parliament intervened to welcome the broad themes of the Finnish presidency between 28 June and 31 October 2018. and stated that the UK would support its delivery of priorities whilst we remained a member state. I also reaffirmed the UK’s The draft remedial order ensures the right to a fair continued commitment and support for the security and hearing for a small group of claimants who had lodged competitiveness of the EU, and welcomed the greater focus on an appeal against a sanction decision that was retrospectively hybrid threats and cyber threats. validated by the 2013 Act, if that appeal case had not Several member states referred to the programme set out by been finally determined, abandoned or withdrawn before Commission President-elect von der Leyen, and called for the 26 March 2013. For these appeal cases, the draft order strategic agenda to inform the commission work programme. The gives the courts the ability to find in the individual’s 17WS Written Statements 5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Written Statements 18WS favour and enables the Secretary of State for Work and tribunal system on the 26 March 2013, the date the Act Pensions to change the sanction decision and refund the came into force. The court’s decision does not affect the amount withheld, without those affected individuals continuing validity of the 2013 Act. having to continue with their appeal, wherever possible. I used the non-urgent remedial order process to allow In 2013, the courts ruled that the Jobseeker’s Allowance time for parliamentary scrutiny. This requires that an (Employment, Skills and Enterprise Schemes) Regulations initial proposed draft remedial order is laid in both 2011 (ESE regulations) that underpinned a range of Houses for a period of 60 days for consultation. The programmes of support to help people into work did Joint Committee on Human Rights also consulted on not describe the individual schemes in enough detail, the proposal and published its report on 31 October 2019. and that our referral letters did not say enough The initial proposed draft remedial order restored the about the activities required. The Jobseeker’s Allowance right to a fair hearing for ESE regulation appeal cases (Mandatory Work Activity Scheme) Regulations 2011 because the appellants in the Court of Appeal case were (MWA regulations) contained identical requirements appealing sanctions decisions made under these regulations. about the content of referral letters. The 2013 Act An upper tribunal judge has since questioned whether a reinstated the original policy intent of these regulations. limited group of mandatory work activity (MWA) appeal This ensured that job seekers who had failed to take all cases might also be included, as their rights under reasonable steps to increase their chances of finding article 6(1) of the European convention on human work between 2011 and 2013 did not unfairly obtain rights arguably may also have been affected by the 2013 advantage over claimants who complied with the benefit Act. conditionality requirements. I have thoroughly considered his question and I The Court of Appeal has ruled that the 2013 Act is believe that certain MWA regulation appeal cases are in effective in retrospectively validating sanction decisions a similar position to the ESE appeal cases that were and notifications. The Court of Appeal also ruled that specifically examined by the Court of Appeal. I have, the 2013 Act was incompatible with article 6(1) (the therefore, revised the proposed draft remedial order to right to a fair hearing) of the European convention on ensure that all claimants who had a pending appeal in human rights. It did not prevent people from appealing the tribunal system on 26 March 2013 that may have if they felt they had a good reason for not participating been affected when the retrospective provisions of the in one of the employment schemes, but it meant that 2013 Act came into effect are included in the draft their appeal would be unsuccessful if it related to their remedial order. compliance with the ESE regulations or the referral There are no other groups similarly affected by the notification they received under the ESE regulations or 2013 Act. The revised draft remedial order remains the MWA regulations. The Court of Appeal found that limited to circumstances that were incompatible with the 2013 Act was effective and that there was no breach article 6(1) of the European convention on human of the European convention on human rights for the rights. I will lay the draft order later today for consideration vast majority of claimants affected by the 2013 Act. by Parliament for a period of 60 days, it is then subject The incompatibility with article 6 (1) arises only where to affirmative resolution. a claimant had an undetermined appeal still in the [HCWS1819] 3MC Ministerial Corrections5 SEPTEMBER 2019 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Ministerial Corrections GOVERNMENT

Thursday 5 September 2019 Homelessness The following is an extract from questions to the HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government on 22 July 2019.

Department of Health and Social Care: Gareth Thomas: Estimates of homelessness among Treasury Funding veterans of our armed forces range from the low thousands to approximately 11,000. Why does the Minister think The following is an extract from the Adjournment that the Government have failed veterans of our services? debate on Department of Health and Social Care: Treasury Funding on 4 September 2019. Mrs Wheeler: As Members might imagine, as the Minister with responsibility for veterans in MHCLG, I Chris Skidmore: Earlier today,the Chancellor reaffirmed have taken a great interest in this matter. In London, we the Government’scommitment to a £33.9 billion cash-terms have data from the combined homelessness and information increase in the NHS budget by 2023-24. This includes a network—so-called CHAIN data—which gives us very £6.2 billion increase in NHS funding next year. This good and specific data about the number of veterans historic NHS settlement provides the largest cash increase who are on the streets. Similarly, the homelessness case in public services since the second world war. There is level information classification, or H-CLIC, contains not time to go into the specific details of how this will data that all councils put into it. It is still experimental, be spent, but I would urge everyone, as part of their because it has been going for less than 18 months, but bedtime reading, to turn to page 9 of the Blue Book of the latest figures show that the number of veterans on spending round 2019 to see how some of that money is the streets is lower than it has ever been, and lower being spent. I am delighted that it will also include a than 3%. £250 million funding boost for Health Education England [Official Report, 22 July 2019, Vol. 663, c. 1084.] next year, which is equivalent to 3.4% real-terms growth. Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Under- [Official Report, 4 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 326-327.] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Letter of correction from the Minister for Health: the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mrs Wheeler): An error has been identified in the answer I gave, as An error has been identified in my response to the the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for debate on Department of Health and Social Care: Housing, Communities and Local Government, to the Treasury Funding. hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas). The correct response should have been: The correct answer should have been: Chris Skidmore: Earlier today,the Chancellor reaffirmed Mrs Wheeler: As Members might imagine, as the the Government’scommitment to a £33.9 billion cash-terms Minister with responsibility for veterans in MHCLG, I increase in the NHS budget by 2023-24. This includes a have taken a great interest in this matter. In London, we £6.2 billion increase in NHS funding next year. This have data from the combined homelessness and information historic NHS settlement provides the largest cash increase network—so-called CHAIN data—which gives us very in public services since the second world war. There is good and specific data about the number of veterans not time to go into the specific details of how this will who are on the streets. Similarly, the homelessness case be spent, but I would urge everyone, as part of their level information classification, or H-CLIC, contains bedtime reading, to turn to page 9 of the Blue Book of data that all councils put into it. It is still experimental, spending round 2019 to see how some of that money is because it has been going for less than 18 months. The being spent. I am delighted that it will also include a latest figures show that the number of veterans on the £210 million funding boost for Health Education England streets in London is lower than it has ever been, and next year, which is equivalent to 3.4% real-terms growth. lower than 3%.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 5 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION ...... 329 EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION—continued Business Preparedness...... 337 Legal Services Sector...... 340 Contingency Planning...... 342 No Deal ...... 333 Discussions with EU Counterparts ...... 338 Policing and Security ...... 339 Ethanol Imports: Tariff Schedule ...... 336 Supply of Medicines: No Deal ...... 329 EU Settlement Scheme...... 344 Topical Questions ...... 344 Exports: No Deal...... 330 Visa-free Travel ...... 332 Freedom of Movement ...... 341 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 5 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION ...... 15WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 16WS General Affairs Council July 2019 ...... 15WS Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Act 2013...... 16WS HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 16WS Building Safety...... 16WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Thursday 5 September 2019

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 3MC HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Department of Health and Social Care: GOVERNMENT...... 4MC Treasury Funding ...... 3MC Homelessness...... 4MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 12 September 2019

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 664 Thursday No. 340 5 September 2019

CONTENTS

Thursday 5 September 2019

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 329] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union

HS2 [Col. 349] Answer to urgent question—(Grant Shapps)

Northern Ireland [Col. 363] Answer to urgent question—(Julian Smith)

Building Safety [Col. 372] Statement—(Robert Jenrick)

Girls’ Education [Col. 382] Statement—(Alok Sharma)

Business of the House [Col. 391] Statement—(Mr Rees-Mogg)

Clean Growth: Emissions Reduction Targets [Col. 412] Select Committee Statement—(Normal Lamb)

Backbench Business UK Shared Prosperity Fund [Col. 420] Motion—(Drew Hendry)—agreed to British House Building Industry [Col. 446] Motion—(Siobhain McDonagh)—agreed to

Skerne River: Discover Brightwater Project [Col. 466] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Artificial Intelligence in Healthcare [Col. 153WH] Hernia Mesh in Men [Col. 176WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 15WS]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]