Artist Jonathan Meese on Why "Democracy Is Finished," and Why Koons Is Not King -

Artist Jonathan Meese on Why "Democracy Is Finished," and Why Koons Is Not King - ... Page 1 of 3

Artist Jonathan Meese on Why "Democracy Is Finished," and Why Koons Is Not King

Photo Jan Bauer, courtesy the artist and Daniel Templon Gallery, Paris. An installation view of Jonathan Meese's show at Galerie Daniel Templon in Paris

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By Nicolai Hartvig, ARTINFO France Published: January 26, 2011

PARIS— Wild and woolly German artist Jonathan Meese is back on the exhibition trail after a yearlong hiatus, during which he created an ever-stranger set of grotesque sculptures that are now on view at Miami's MOCA and new paintings and sculptures at Galerie Daniel Templon gallery in Paris. At the opening of Meese's large show at the gallery, the 40-year-old artist sported a favorite striped track top that prompted one wit to ask if he was sponsored by Adidas. "No, I don't fit into their structure," he replied. "I'm not sporty enough."

Of his recent break from art-making, Meese told ARTINFO France that "People had to tell me to calm down, suggest that it's time for pause." He still found enough zany energy for performance work — provocative acting out that in the past has often involved extended Nazi routines, complete with goose-stepping and salutes — and he created the set design for Wolfgang Rihm's latest opera, Dionysos, based on the life of Nietzsche. "I'm like a child, I have no borders," he explained. "Creating is instinct, like digesting. To produce art is to produce toys for the world, for the revolution."

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And so began our interview.

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What is this revolution you speak of?

Art is the total revolution. It will be the leader of the world. Art will rule the world soon. I think art is stronger than politics and religion. One day, we will say and agree that we live under the leadership of art.

On what side of the political spectrum would art then find itself?

Neutral. It's between left and right, but above them. It has nothing to do with those ideas or ideologies. Art has no human ideology.

But it can still carry a standpoint, an opinion and a message. Your works seem less inclined to dialogue than to shouting slogans. How do you keep it coherent?

You do it by going away. You leave the art alone to do what it wants to do. We are just decoration for art, it's not the other way around. The people who are in this exhibition are the decoration of the art. We always think that we are the most important, but art is much more important, beautiful, and powerful than us. Art will survive. It existed before mankind and it will exist when we are gone. We are not the measurement of art, it is its own measurement. It is true that my paintings scream, because they can talk. They speak a much better language than we do, they are more precise.

So even though collectors and curators sometimes pay a great deal for their art, the artworks actually own them?

It's okay to pay, but we are in the hands of art, not the other way around.

So are we being tricked into thinking that we're in control, particularly in a gallery?

Absolutely. Everywhere. We are tricked because we always think we are the most important, but nature is more important. It created us and nature was created by art, our gods were created by art. That's the beauty of it. Art is the leadership of a thing, like the sun. Or this water [he lifts his cup], which rules my world and is my dictator. Art produced this water and gave it power. When I'm gone, the water will still be here. Art is not only a sculpture, a painting, a drawing, or a theater play. The whole world must be a theater play, a big opera.

In what role would you cast yourself in such a play?

I would be a normal soldier of art. I want to do my duty. It's not about what we want to do but what we have to do. Art is like breathing, you breathe and then comes the next breath. It's nothing special. It's not difficult to do a painting or a sculpture. All children can do that. We just forget it.

So what do you make of the aesthetic judgment that some paintings are important while others are just kids' drawings for their parents' fridge?

That's just taste, it has no meaning. It's a decision, but it's not truth. It's a strategy, an industry. We can all, the people of the world, decide that something is not art. But if art decides, itself, that it is art, then it is art. We can all decide that the show is scheiße, is shit, but the show itself decides whether it’s good or bad. We’re just statistics and visitors. The main thing about the art is not the artist, the artist is not art. Art is more — or less. I think it's the total power. In art, we don't have to kneel, we don't have to pray — that's the difference between art and religion.

Some people still come close to praying to superstar artists who have a godlike status bestowed upon them, or who create it themselves.

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If you do it as a game, as an act, then it's okay. But if you truly, religiously believe, then it's religion and you mistake yourself for art. With Jeff Koons, it's a game. He's not the king. He is a super artist and he produces super art. Or art uses him to produce good art, good things, or beautiful, lovingly precise things. But you don't need to kneel down before this guy. You shake his hand and say "respect." But no artist is a church. You don't have to kneel, not even in front of Picasso. You can kneel down in front of a painting if you want but it makes no difference. The painting doesn't need it.

That's interesting since many artists are insecure but their work is confident.

Paintings are the leaders. Or sculpture, or water, or the sun, or the blood through my veins. In fact, we are so poor that we let politicians or religious figures rule the world. We should let art rule everything. Parliament should be led by art, we should accept that art is stronger than all these nostalgic ideologies. I want all politicians and all religious leaders to resign and say : "Thank you, art, you should be the leader." I think it will happen, because everything else is worn out. Democracy is finished. Art is stronger.

Can art be independent?

Yes. We use it and instrumentalize it, but it makes no difference. Art does what it wants to do. It is stronger than our instrumentalization. I think there is a difference between art and culture. Culture is a program. In art, you cannot program anything.

But art remains inspiration for culture.

True, but that's the second step. Art should not be too much culture, because then it starts to become too normative. You brainwash things, you make things too shallow and smooth.

Still, every art movement has been defined and given a name, from Impressionism to Surrealism, so people can relate to it. If you want art to rule, wouldn't you have to help people understand it without these helpful guides?

It's the end point. You can totally support art. Then you have to accept that it leads the world. Or you can be against art. There is no gray area, it's black or white. You can either be for culture or for art. You can decide very easily if you want a program, if you want brainwashing, or not. I am against art schools because I think they are brainwashing institutions and the result is too poor. They produce robots, machines of another business. Ten years ago, one in a hundred artists made it his or her own way. Now it's one of every thousand. These people are not artists, they are system illustrators. I talk a lot in front of art students and they have no faces any more. As an artist, you have to serve art. You have to do what art wants you to do. I just want to sleep and stay in the bathtub. But art forces me to do this, the works I'm showing today. There has to be a change. We have to be more precise and do our duty. Not so much self-fulfillment. There are too many monks in the world, who think they are artists or that art has something to do with religion. It's totally free from all this.

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