The Skating Lesson Podcast Transcript Four Continents Dance and Pairs Recap

Jenny Kirk: Hello, and welcome to The Skating Lesson Podcast. I’m Jennifer Kirk, a former US Ladies competitor and a three-time world team member.

Dave : I’m Dave Lease. I’ve never done a triple-triple, but I am a figure skating blogger and a current adult skater.

Jenny: And in this video, we are going to talk about the pairs and dance event at the Four Continents Championships which took place last weekend.

Dave: Jenny, I am really excited for this conversation. We haven’t discussed how we feel about the dance event yet, and I feel like we were watching a black and white film and the heroin came in at the end. And the smoke rings, nice vodka – Meryl’s hair was down, and Garulle was singing “Dance mon Esmeralde!” Tessa and Scott had those lifts and that groping Carmen…

Jenny: All this sexiness!

Meryl Davis/Charlie White vs. / – General Remarks

Dave: Yes, let’s just get into it! So, Meryl and Charlie did win the gold medal at Four Continents, Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir won the silver, and won the bronze, and Maia and finished in fourth place. So, we haven’t discussed the programs yet. What were your impressions of Meryl and Charlie at Four Continents?

Jenny: I thought their was just perfection, and I think the marks really reflect that as well. They were so crisp, it’s the best I’ve ever seen them do this dance. And every single thing was on. Their were on – they did have that bobble in the a few days ago, which I think may be why they were in second place because overall I think also that dance may be a little bit stronger than Tessa and Scott’s. But that free dance from Meryl and Charlie – just – everything was on, they were skating to win. They had that fire, that attack, and it really seems that the momentum is in their favor heading into Worlds next month.

Dave: Oh, I definitely agree when you said that they had the attack. I think it was almost perfect for them to be in second place after the short dance because the one thing I get about Meryl and Charlie is that they always seem so lovely, they always say the right things. But they just have that look in their eyes like they go into every competition ready to attack. There’s never any excuses. They go out there full speed. Their lifts are flying, she is twisting around him, they have such difficult transitions. And it really looks like they are hungry this year. They skated really well at the World Championships last year, and they finished a really bitter second place, frankly. I think they were really mature about their result, but I think they were upset and I think that the attack they have this season in every single competition shows that they really want to win. And I get a sense that both top dance teams really believe that – each one believes that they are the best in the world. Whereas maybe before they were competing I think each one feels in their own minds that they are the best, and they compete that way. And I think that Meryl and Charlie are going after not just a gold, but they are going after 10s every time they compete. They had ridiculously high scores at nationals, and they backed it up with this performance. I think they had a little bit of a stumble in the footwork section of their short dance, Charlie was a little off. But they had really their game faces on and their focus in the right place for the free dance. It was a really powerful performance. I think the drama and their attack and desire to win is a perfect match this season because they really don’t have to hold anything back. Last year, they really did a lighthearted free dance that I think really masked some of their attack. It seems this year they really go full out, powerful, ripping at each other limbs. They have that connection. I guess, do you feel their connection has improved compared to last year? Because I personally get that from them. Jenny: I don’t know if it’s the connection that has improved, it just seems that particularly their free dance – there’s so much passion there, and you can tell that they are so hungry to get that world title. And I don’t see that passion, that hunger, particularly from Tessa this season. And I know you talked about how both teams seems like they both seem like they really want to win. But in their free dance from Tessa and Scott – obviously they had the problem that we’ll talk about where they had to stop their program here at this event – it just seems sloppy to me, it seems like you lose that passion halfway through. Their free dance starts off so strong, there is that passion. And once they hit the slow section to the end, they never really regain that. And I think that the really strong point when we talk about Meryl and Charlie in their free dance is they keep that passion throughout. They keep the hunger, the fire, and then it also increases by the end of the program where they’re skating faster, they’re keeping up to the music. And I also think that their spins are faster. I find their lifts in their free dance to be a little bit more visually appealing, intricate. I do like the last two lifts from Tessa and Scott’s free dance. But I think their opening lift – I’m not a huge fan of it. They do have great speed, but it just seems a little bit sloppy in their free dance. What are your impressions of the two free dances?

Dave: I think they are both great programs. I will start with saying that I think they both really took it up a notch for this season from last season, and I think they both are trying to improve. However, watching the programs a couple of times this season and just watching Four Continents, I feel that Meryl and Charlie’s free dance has come together at this point in the season more cohesively. It builds, they have added little details to it, and I think that – one of the things that has really improved for them is that they have really been working on their weaknesses. In the past, those in the world, the other coaches, the judges, comments from the media, of other federations – you’ll always hear them mention how beautiful Tessa is on the ice and they’re wonderful connection. One thing that Meryl and Charlie have really done is work on their connection. And I actually do see Meryl open up more as a performer, and it seems that when —

Jenny: See – I don’t mean to cut you off – I agree there, but I don’t think the connection between the pair is as strong as Tessa and Scott’s.

Dave: No, but I think she is opening up more as a performer, and it felt when they would criticize Meryl and Charlie, they were really criticizing Meryl for her lack of perhaps sex appeal on the ice. And I think that her hair is down, and she seems to be more open as a performer. Perhaps they don’t – I don’t think that Meryl and Charlie have the heat that Tessa and Scott do. I don’t know what’s going on in their personal lives, but when Tessa and Scott skate – they look like years of an on and off romance, whether it’s acting, whether it’s real, I don’t know, but I’m riveted by it.

Jenny: And I think that it’s also personalities – Tessa is sexy! She just has this sex appeal about her, and obviously Carmen – it really brings it out. And I think that Meryl is beautiful – she is really understated in some ways. So I think that’s really where, when you talk about the performance quality it differs, but I do think the free dance for Meryl and Charlie – it brings that out more than Carmen. It just comes across as a little bit sloppy to me.

Dave: I definitely see a problem with Carmen. It starts off SO sexy, and after years of – we had Tessa bringing this Audrey Hepburn-vibe to the ice, and I think there was a lot of criticism last year that we’d had enough of it. She was always sweet and beautiful, and this year it’s like a shocking 180 where Tessa’s all of a sudden this villainous on the ice and she is groping at him and… it’s exciting to watch, and the opening is great. It’s powerful, it’s eye-catching, and it’s very different for them. It’s a little bit more modern, a little bit more perhaps slightly avant-garde in areas. And then it loses it when the music changes and they go into the footwork and the step sequences. It slows down, and I think that the impact of the program – I think that if they skate cleanly and Meryl and Charlie skate cleanly, that they lose about a point in components and about… not just the components, but they lose the crowd. And I think that the crowd – because these teams are so close together – has to impact the results in some way. And I think that they are losing the impact in that middle section like you said, and they never get it back. To the end – it looks a little sloppy when they try to then build it to the end. There’s a disconnect. Tessa Virtue/Scott Moir Stopping in Middle of Free Dance

Jenny: And I just feel like it ends very abruptly. So before we move on to third and fourth place, Tessa and Scott – they did have something that we rarely ever see in a skating event. They stopped their program midway through. We still don’t know – the event took place this morning, so perhaps when we do air this video we will know exactly what happened – but what did you take of that? They were then able to go back and redo that lift. Do you think that was fair?

Dave: Well – I think it’s very interesting. I think there was a big thing last year where the results at Four Continents really were the same results at worlds. Right or wrong – whether – I don’t know if anyone knows. Was there a difference in the performances, were the results right, was it politics, was it the natural order of things in the dance world, one never knows. But, Four Continents equaled Worlds. And the performances weren’t the same. Tessa and Scott were actually really strong at Four Continents, and they had a few little hiccups in their performances at worlds performances but they still won. And they won kind of convincingly. However, I notice that every time that Meryl and Charlie skate really strongly, and Tessa and Scott are perhaps on the verge of losing, something happens. And I don’t know if it’s someone psyching themselves out or what happens or if ailments become bigger in their minds. But Tessa – I think the latest was that perhaps she had a leg cramp today. And I think two years ago there was something with her hamstring where they stopped their programs at Four Continents as well. They never have these problems except for when they are competing against . It could purely be coincidental that this has happened in the preview for the World Championships twice in three years. It is entirely possible that they are training hard this part of the season, something happened. However, I think that the impact of this rivalry and the intensity of it – you really have to wonder is something else going on here? Are these teams vying for position? Do Tessa and Scott feel perhaps that they are losing their grasp? Because perhaps before they were always thought as being the better team and Meryl and Charlie were the challengers and it seems like they are now neck-and-neck. And I don’t know if perhaps something didn’t go right earlier in the program but one can only speculate – did something really happen? And why is something always happening with them when we don’t see Tessa and Scott ever stop their program any other competition during the year? It leads you to wonder – I don’t know. She could be injured. Then again, I think that all skaters competing at this level have aches and pains, have leg cramps, have something that’s going, and it’s really kind of shocking to see a reigning world champion stop a program twice in three years.

Jenny: I think it is a little bit suspect. Again, we don’t know what happened. She may be ill. It seemed to me like she couldn’t breathe or something. That’s what the commentators at the event were saying. But – I don’t want to laugh about it – but three quarters of the way into the program most of us can’t breathe anyway! I mean, you’re winded anyway! You saw when they stopped the program Scott was winded, too. So I don’t know but she may have something more – bigger than that. But I do think that it is suspect. And I think that this season – it just seems that – something is off. I don’t love the free dance. I think, again, there is something missing there, the spins aren’t as fast, I don’t think the lifts are as crisp. There’s even – the last footwork sequence at the end – they’re a little bit more hunched than I’ve seen in the past. They don’t have that presentation to really showcase it. I love her dress, I think they look great on the ice – they seem to be in good shape – but I don’t see this as a world championship winning free dance. And it will be interesting to see with the world championships in if that plays a role at all next month. So let’s move on. Do you have something more that you wanted to add?

Team Canton Rivalry between /Charlie White and Tessa Virtue/Scott Moir

Dave: I just wanted to talk about the rivalry for one second. For so many years, there were articles that everything was great in Canton and that the teams got along really well and they just loved training together – Scott and Charlie played hockey together. But I’ve noticed in the last year and a half, Scott’s comments have really escalated, and he’s very openly tenacious. There are those in the skating worlds that are finding his comments refreshing, that he’s not just being politically correct when they lose – he’s visibly angry. When they win, he’s very excited. And he lets it be known how he feels – that he thinks that they are perhaps the better team. They’re not pretending to be great friends on the ice as much as they used to be. And you just have to wonder – these teams know each other so well. When you train with someone, you know each other’s strengths and weaknesses so well. Meryl and Charlie skated directly before them today. And they heard those marks, and you just have to wonder – what kind of plays into them? What’s playing into the psyche of these competitors? They are fierce competitors. They are athletes at the top of their game – they are hungry. They are not just going out to skate clean programs – they are going out to win. And I just wonder if really they should all stay training together. Do you see it being a healthy environment for both of these teams staying training together? At this point they are viewed as being neck and neck. The results are… do you think it is going to help them just to train together for next year? Do you think they each need to have their own camp to go for gold next year?

Jenny: I think at this point – I think the results at the world championships will tell a lot. My gut says that if Tessa and Scott get second, I would go to Igor. I don’t know what happened between Marina and Igor, but I would go to another camp. I think that they were really, like you said, they were the team to beat for so many years. And I think that makes a relationship and a friendship easier, particularly somebody has the personality that you described of Scott. It’s easier to be friends with somebody when you feel like – okay, I’m a little bit better than them – if they’re a close competitor. And then once the tables turn, it’s harder to keep up that relationship. Who knows – maybe they are still close friends. But I would say – if they get second at the world championships, I would seriously consider a coaching change because mentally, it’s exhausting training with a close competitor like that. There’s so much that goes into it that I think it may be draining. It may be difficult, particularly if you feel like you’re not getting the results that you want.

Dave: I think you talked about something being off, and I can’t help but wonder if what’s off is the environment and that training together every day. They had a big coaching change, they’re working with a new technician, and perhaps something is just off in the dynamics. They’re no longer with Igor on a daily basis, and he was thought of to be the technician. And I just wonder if there is going to be a change, because I don’t believe that Tessa and Scott are going to be okay with silver medalists after this year if that happens. I think that – their short dance this year is very strong. And I was watching it, and it was more classic Tessa and Scott. They didn’t take a risk like they did with the free dance but it was smooth, it was wonderful, it was everything that everyone loves about Tessa and Scott. It was SO crisp and just polished, and I don’t see that in their free dance when they’re trying to take a risk to step up. I wonder if both of these teams will stay together because at the same point, I don’t think Meryl and Charlie will okay with being silver medalists two years in a row if they are to lose the world championships. I think they’ve gotten to such a point where things could change again this spring, and things could get really interesting in the world of ice dance.

Madison Chock/Evan Bates vs. /Alex Shibutani

Dave: Now moving on, on the other side of the split – Madison Chock and Evan Bates were with both Marina and Igor last year, and now they’ve gone off with Igor and the Shibutanis have stayed with Marina Zueva. And this has really become a bit of a rivalry because Maia and Alex were thought of as being the second team in the US, and they were really supplanted by Evan and Madison at the national championships rather convincingly, according to the results. So, how did you compare the two teams?

Jenny: What I noticed was – really, where I think Madison and Evan really stand out is in that short dance. The dance just got me! It’s so fast at the end, and they keep up with the music. It’s really interesting, it really draws you in, whereas I felt like with the Shibutanis, their free dance is really strong, probably stronger than Madison’s and Evan’s free dance, but their short dance – I think it’s not up to the level it needs to be if they’re going to challenge for that world bronze medal or to be that second place US team. I did find it interesting though that with how strong I felt that Madison and Evan’s short dance and probably their free dance as well, their scores don’t really reflect that in the program components. So it does show that the judges are still willing to give in that second mark the Shibutanis the edge this season. I think it’s notable, it’s interesting particularly when you consider that their short dance – I don’t feel in my opinion is as strong as Madison and Evan’s. What were your impressions?

Shibutanis Discussion Dave: I definitely agree that the short dance is playing a huge role this season between these two teams. I think – Maia and Alex have been such a polished team for so long. They’re obviously siblings, they’ve skated together for a really long time, and they are both great technical skaters, they have smooth edges, they have gorgeous lines – but there is a problem this year, and the British commentators talked about. And it almost seems like, in skating – there is a natural order of progression. You go to your first world championships, you finish seventh or eighth, you move up the next year a couple of spots, the third year perhaps you compete for a medal.

Jenny: Particularly in ice dancing.

Dave: Yes, yes. That’s how it’s happened for many other teams. Maia and Alex were probably slotted to finish about fifth their first year, but two teams ahead of them made mistakes in their FD and Alex and Maia ended up with a bronze medal at worlds. They were visibly surprised. And it seemed like it was great, North American sweep, they all train together – and there was almost a backlash last season. There were a lot of articles – interviews with other coaches – and several other coaches who were very critical of the fact that Marina and Igor had so much success and it almost seemed like they had their success and now we’re going to tear them down. You build ‘em up and you tear them down. And the Shibutanis were the easiest team to tear down because they look very young and their programs were perhaps more youthful. They don’t have that sexual energy that the other teams have, and they had programs that were perhaps slightly more juvenile. They are younger, their programs are more juvenile. And Madison Chock – it seems like they’ve always dressed her up to look older. Now she’s not that different in age from the Shibutanis, but they’ve always made her look older on the ice, and it seems like she is someone who Igor has a distinct vision as how he views Madison and Evan as a couple. They have interesting lifts that are visually interesting to look at. She might not be as strong a skater as the Shibutanis. But visually, watching the programs, I’m a little bit more interested in what they’re doing even if I don’t think the quality of the skating is as good. Maia and Alex conversely are doing a program that – they’re using the same music, the missing music, that the Duchesnays and used. Those two teams KILLED that music. They didn’t just skate to it. It was iconic. And it seems perhaps – the Duchesnays were another sibling team – there’s been a lot of criticism about Maia and Alex because they are siblings and they don’t have that unique factor. And I really think that it was a huge mistake to use this music for them mand it’s only exacerbating a problem that happened. They made mistakes at the World Championships last year and the judges pounced on them, dropping them from third place to eighth place. Then their coaches split, and then they’re using this music, and they’re even falling to third in the US. And I think that is a huge, huge problem. They have an identity crisis. And the British commentators said that they felt they don’t know where the Shibutanis fit in in the ice dance world and they’re not sure if the Shibutanis know. And I get a sense that when they skate that a lack of confidence is a little bit creeping in. That they don’t seem to have that sureness. Their first year on the senior season – sometimes people have programs that they believed in. You [Jenny] had a Chicago program that seemed like you loved that carried you. Their free dance in 2011 was that program. They don’t seem to have that this year. They don’t seem to have the belief in the material, they don’t seem to have the belief that if they skate well they will get the results. And I think it’s starting to creep in and starting to affect their performances and it’s almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy where now they’re almost at a risk of – will they make the US Olympics team? Will they not? There is a fourth place team who is very, very strong that is not here at Four Continents this week. And I’m left wondering what’s next for the Shibutanis. I think that they may need a coaching change. is a fabulous coach, but I don’t see the vision of where this team is going and I don’t know if they have the vision anymore, either. They are fabulous technicians, they are wonderful skaters. I don’t know where this is going. Are they going to keep falling in the ice dance world? Do they deserve to? Or do they just need a new set of eyes and a new set of ideas to really reinvent themselves for the Olympics?

Jenny: It does seem like – something has to change following the world championships, but with only a month to go, I don’t see a big change happening. It seems like they just need to continue to work on these programs, really polish them. I do think like you talk about– their short dance, it does come across as a bit juniorish. There are certain things that she wears – she is so mature-looking in the free dance, but in short dance, wearing her hair in the ponytail, I think the dress is a little bit younger – it makes them look a little bit younger. So, I think there are little things that could be polished heading into Worlds, but it does seem like this is – you raise so many great questions that this team is going to have to ponder, really answer, heading into the summer months if they really want to make that change.

Back to Madison Chock/Evan Bates vs. Maia Shibutani/Alex Shibutani

Dave: I do have one question for you. In the ice dance world, there is always the sense of – there is one stem and there’s a flower. And I get the sense that when I watch the Shibutanis that it’s almost even – you watch both of them. And when I watch Madison and Evan, my eye goes to her, or if he’s lifting her in a unique way – they tend to do a lot of angular lifts – do you think that Maia is as strong a female lead as Madison is? I mean, I don’t want to make this sound like it’s the Academy Awards, but do you watch the girl more than the guy, one, and two, how do you think Madison and Maia compare?

Jenny: I think in terms of the stem and the flower, when it comes to the Shibutanis, she doesn’t emote as much as she probably, quite frankly, should, and perhaps it’s the programs we did see a couple years ago, it seemed like those programs were stronger, that your eye was drawn to her a little bit more. I don’t know if it’s because he is a stronger skater or what, but they need to find a program next season that will really promote her personality to find that thing inside of her that is going to come out because when you talk about Madison, she has that “it” factor. Physically, the way she holds herself, particularly in that short dance the way she carries herself, and it seems that Evan is fine to be that stem to let her shine. And I think maybe it’s a personality thing but with Maia, she just seems a little bit more – not introverted, but not as showy, like “here I am!” And in ice dance, you kind of have to sex it up, and I don’t feel that she has that sex appeal which makes them come across a little bit younger. How do you see it?

Dave: I agree. I think there was actually a problem – I think that Evan’s former partner, , was a stronger technical skater than Madison Chock. However, conversely, I think that Madison Chock is a better presenter of the team than Emily Samuelson was. And he is now moving up in the dance world again – and I think it’s that Tessa vs. Meryl. Who does your eye go to? Who do you like better?

Jenny: But the funny thing is – I don’t meant to interrupt – but with Tessa, she had that kind of showy, extrovert quality which Meryl didn’t have, but they were able to really cultivate and nourish whatever they could out of Meryl so now you see her and she has her own unique look on the ice. And that’s what I think they need to do with Maia.

Dave: I agree. So looking ahead to the world championships, our keys to what to watch at the 2013 World Championships:

• Impact of Igor/Marina split We’ve seen some shifting happen specifically between the Shibutanis and between Chock and Bates, and I think it will be very interesting to see what happens in the future • Success too soon? Did the Shibutanis win a bronze medal too early at the world championships and was that a death nail to their career? • Perfection Is it going to take absolute perfection to win in worlds and will that matter?

Jenny: And wrapping things up here

• Politics Are politics going to come into play? We talked about that split. How is that going to impact world championships and who ends up on the medal podium?

Dave: And the worlds are in Canada.

Jenny: Right, how does the home town advantage come into play? Four Continents equals worlds – Dave you talked about this earlier. Will the results here portend what the results will be at the end of the world championships? And finally: • Gloves are off So does this mean that whichever team finishes second place between the two top teams at the world championships – does that mean that a coaching change is in the future months or will they continue to stay together? Only time will tell.

Pairs

Dave: And then I think, looking forward, we want to touch upon the pairs. and won the competition at Four Continents. And they were really the standout team here. And I’m left wondering where they stand going into the World Championships. They do side-by-side triple lutzes, they do a side-by-side triple salchow, they also do a throw triple lutz, and when I see their consistency and their strength over the last month, watching the European Championships, watching Volosozhar and Trankov as well as Savchenko and Szolkowy, I’m left wondering if perhaps unless those two teams are super strong, they are being outdone by Duhamel and Radford, and personally, I’m curious whether or not Duhamel and Radford might perhaps upset for a silver medal if the other two teams don’t deliver as strongly as they could.

Jenny: I think that’s the key phrase, if they other teams don’t deliver, because even here in the long program Duhamel and Radford – they finished second, they didn’t skate their best. I think really what it comes down to for them is – they have to be clutch, they have to be on, they have to land all their technical elements, they have to have that wow factor. The event being in Canada – I think that could help them, having that hometown advantage. But really, if they’re in the hunt for the gold medal, I think it will come down to the top two teams having some mistakes and really they just have to skate lights out.

Dave: I think the Americans were third and fourth here.

Jenny: Respectable showing.

Dave: Respectable. What we expected. I think that Scimeca/Knierim actually withdrew, we’re not sure if they’re still the alternates for the world championships, time will tell there. Perhaps Felicia Zhang and will actually be the alternates. We’re not sure what is going to happen with Caydee Denney and John Coughlin. I think it’s going to be interesting to watch. And we look forward to continuing this discussion with you at the 2013 World Championships. I know I’m looking forward to it, and I think Jenny is as well.

Jenny: Definitely am, and thank you guys for tuning in to watch, and we’ll be back next week with our interview posted next Wed so look for that, check for that, and thank you guys for tuning in. We appreciate it.

Together: As always, hold an edge, and look sexy. Bye, guys!