An Interview with
Vernon E. Bruckerhoff
in the Carnahan Building on the campus of
Southeast Missouri State University in Cape Girardeau, Missouri
20 March 2001
interviewed by N. Renae Farris
Oral History Program The State Historical Society of Missouri © 2001
Collection C3929 Politics in Missouri a.c. 284, 285
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PREFACE
Vernon E. Bruckerhoff was born on July 31, 1944 in St. Mary‟s, Missouri in a structure known as the old Rozier Trading Post. A graduate of Southeast Missouri State University (SEMO) in Cape Girardeau, Mr. Bruckerhoff pursued a teaching career before entering the Missouri House of Representatives by special election in April 1970. Re-elected in the fall of that year, he went on to serve six full terms in that chamber as a Republican. For his most recent biographic entry, see the Official Manual of the State of Missouri, 1981-1982, page 111. Additional information may be obtained from his papers, which are housed in the University Archives in SEMO‟s Kent Library. This collection is approximately eight cubic feet in size, and is composed of two series, dating from 1963-1976 and 1971-1982.
We agreed to meet on the SEMO campus in the Carnahan Building, the home of the History Department. Mr. Bruckerhoff proved to be an interesting and animated speaker. In the course of the interview, he discussed a number of topics such as the completion of I-55, Warren Hearnes‟ tenure as Governor, the lifting of tolls from the Chester, IL - Perryville, MO bridge, and Bruckerhoff‟s legislative activities.
The interview was taped on Maxell COM-60 audio cassettes (normal bias), using a Sony TC-D5 ProII manual recorder and a Shure VP64 omnidirectional microphone attached to a floor stand. There are a few background sounds, but the recording is of generally high quality.
The following transcript represents a rendering of the oral history interview. Stylistic alterations have been made as part of a general transcription policy. The interviewee offered clarifications and suggestions, which the following transcript reflects. Any use of brackets [ ] indicates editorial insertions not found on the original audio recordings. Physical gestures, certain vocal inflections such as imitation, and/or pauses are designated by a combination of italics and brackets [ ]. Any use of parentheses ( ) indicates a spoken aside evident from the speaker's intonation, or laughter. Quotation marks [“”] identify speech depicting dialogue, speech patterns, or the initial use of nicknames. Double dashes [--] and ellipses […] are also used as a stylistic method in an attempt to capture nuances of dialogue or speech patterns. Words are italicized when emphasized in speech. Particularly animated speech is identified with bold lettering. Underlining [ __ ]indicates a proper title of a publication. Although substantial care has been taken to render this transcript as accurately as possible, any remaining errors are the responsibility of the editor, N. Renae Farris.
[tape meter, 001. Begin tape one of two. Begin interview.]
RF: [I‟m Renae Farris for the State Historical Society of Missouri.] Today is March 20, 2001
and I‟m here in Cape Girardeau at the campus of Southeast Missouri State University.
[I‟m] speaking with Vernon Bruckerhoff, who [as a Republican] was in the Missouri
House of Representatives from 1970 through 1983. To start out, could you tell me a little
bit about yourself? When, where you were born?
VB: Ok, I was born in St. Mary‟s, Missouri. Unbelievably, in the old Rozier Trading Post. I
went to Catholic grade school, graduated from St. Mary‟s High School, and then I had the
opportunity to come to Cape Girardeau and graduated here in 1966 with a Bachelor of
Science degree in Secondary Education. I did my student teaching at Malden, Missouri.
I taught about one year at Marquand, Missouri [and] I taught about three years at
Perryville High School. I was elected to the legislature1. Served six years in the National
Guard. I farmed, and I‟m presently in the land and timber business. Retired, but
probably busier now than before I retired. I love the outdoors, and one of my biggest
avocations is gathering wild ginseng in the fall of the year. I love politics. I love
Missouri, the United States and life in general.
RF: Okay, what made you decide to run for elective office?
VB: Oh, when I was in high school I wrote a letter to a guy by the name of Richard Nixon.
(Laughing) Unbelievably, I remember the night that I got the return letter from him. We
were having a basketball game at St. Mary‟s High School. He inspired me to become
active in politics. Then when I came to the campus here at Cape, I formed the Young
1 In later correspondence, Mr. Bruckerhoff noted that he had also served a term as Perry County Public Administrator.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 1
Republicans Club here. There was a fellow by the name of Gary Rust, who‟s probably
one of the greatest people I‟ve ever met. Kind of took me under his wing. Gary Rust and
Steve Limbaugh, [Sr.] (who‟s now a federal judge) and his family and Rush Limbaugh‟s
dad2. They instilled a certain quality of conservative politics in me.
I formed the Young Republicans Club here at the college, and then went on to
become the President of the State College Young Republicans when I was on campus
here. I ran several times. I ran for the Student Senate and I ran for Vice-President one
year. Of course, the Greeks kind of controlled things. I was an independent. I did pretty
well. I was beat by a guy by the name of Dick Black. Not Dick Black, but I believe
David DeClue. Unfortunately, Dave went on to serve in the military and served in
Vietnam. [He] came home as a trainer pilot and was killed in an accident in New
Mexico. Then [in] my senior year I was elected to the Student Senate here, and then
when I went to do my student teaching I resigned and let another friend of mine who
wanted to be on Student Council [be appointed to serve my term.] [Ron] Colyer, who
was editor of the Capaha Arrow, take my place on the Student Senate. When I was here
on campus one of the biggest things we got started is we started the effort to build a new
student union.
RF: That would be now University Center?
VB: [Affirmatively] University Center. We started paying five or six dollars a semester. I
remember that myself and “Butch” Olmstead and… I can‟t remember all the people.
Tom Wood, David DeClue, Dick Black. We were basically the catalyst. Mike Daniels,
2 Presumably referring to the father of radio personality Rush Limbaugh, III.
2 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
John Mueller3. [We] kind of got it started and now it‟s a reality and something we‟re
proud of.
RF: Did your parents have any interest in politics?
[tape meter, 050]
VB: My dad was interested in politics. My mom… Of course, they kind of followed along
and the more active I became in politics, the more active they became in supporting me in
these efforts.
And then I was fortunate…I was teaching school in Perry County and I‟d had the
opportunity to write a column for the Perry County Republic called “The People Want To
Know”. I was elected… I was a write-in candidate for Public Administrator and I was
also teaching school. Back then, it was a “thank you” job. You know, it was one of
those things that cost you money. Now it pays $10,000. Then Martin Degenhardt, who
was a very good friend of mine, died of cancer after serving nineteen years in the
legislature. I ran in a special election against a guy by the name of Dennis Brewer and I
won. Fortunately, I was able to be elected to seven terms in the General Assembly.
RF: What made you keep running for office?
VB: Well, it gets in your blood. When you get interested in things… For example, I had a
project, the Chester Bridge4. Tolls on Chester Bridge. They were taking in a million
dollars a year and the people were getting nothing out of it. It was a big political deal.
We got into that, and I fought that all the time that I was there. Finally when I did leave
3 Mr. Bruckerhoff later noted that he believed John Harlan Mueller was an attorney in Orlando, Florida at the time of this interview. 4 This bridge extends over the Mississippi River from a location near Perryville, Missouri to Chester, Illinois.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 3
public office, I was fortunate to have a friend by the name of Bill Emerson who took up
the torch. After about I think twenty-something years we finally got the toll off of the
bridge.
Of course everybody in the legislature, when you go up there, it‟s going to be
different now with term limits. But basically everybody specializes in something.
Another big thing that my interest was finishing I-55. We can probably talk about
that some because there‟s really some interesting stories in how we did finally get I-55
finished. Probably some of the things that happened, as far as transfer of money from
different projects, probably a lot of people would go to jail today if they did it the way
that Warren Hearnes did it! (Laughs)
RF: (Laughs) Yes, you did enter during his tenure in office as Governor. Was there any sort
of friction because that, with you being Republican?
VB: No. Warren Hearnes and I, we got off to a really good start. I was chairman of the
College Republicans here when he first ran for Governor. And Ethan Shepley5… We
had a debate down at Houck Stadium. That was the first time I ever met Warren
Hearnes. Then later on I ran in the special election.
One of the first things when I went to Jefferson City, I was fortunate to have
some… I was fortunate and I guess in a way probably had a keen sense to do this, is I
allowed several people, older people who‟d been around, to kind of more or less adopt
me politically. There was a guy by the name of George Rozier who had been a state
senator from Perryville. In fact, I remember the day I met him. He and Elizabeth
5 The Republican gubernatorial candidate running against Hearnes in 1964.
4 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
(Elizabeth‟s still living)… There was a place called “Fish and Chips” out on Missouri
Boulevard [in Jefferson City]. I was sitting in there and this decrepit old man came up to
me and said, “You‟re Vernon Bruckerhoff.” You know, I‟m really impressed. He came
over and said, “This is Elizabeth and I‟m George Rozier.” Of course, I knew right away
who he was. He said, “What committees you want to get on?” I said, “Well, I want
Agriculture, Roads and Highways, and Education.” He said, “Okay.” And of course,
[R.J.] “Bus” King was Republican Minority Leader then. I put those requests in and he
said, “Well, good luck.”
[tape meter, 100]
But George had some influence somewhere, through probably Tom Graham. Jim
Godfrey was Speaker [of the House]. When I got my committee assignments I got what I
wanted. And that was a tremendous boost to me!
And another thing. There was a guy by the name of Jim Young (who‟s still living
in Perry County) and he was active in conservation. He came up and spent a day with me
[and] took me over to the Conservation Department, took me through there. I met a lot of
people like Osal Capps. A lot of these guys have retired and died. I‟ve just had a
marvelous relation with those people. Then I met a man by the name of Bob Hyder who
was legal counsel for the Highway Department.
George Rozier, he introduced me to the “oldies”, the people that had the
connections that got things done! Little did I know that… There was a guy by the name
of Bob Kingsland. I don‟t know where he‟s at now, but he would mysteriously show up
at different places and hand me campaign checks and it was all legal. It always mystified
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 5
me as to why this guy showed up and handed me money! (Chuckles) You know, it was
very legitimate. Later on, I found out that he was part of George Rozier‟s entourage in
Jefferson City. They were just a marvelous group of people to work with.
I had the opportunity to go in and sit down and visit with Governor Hearnes. We
had a little problem to start out with. I was elected in a special election in April. This
was whenever Earl Blackwell and Warren Hearnes were having a fight over the tax
increase. Well, it went to the vote of the people and it was defeated. Then of course, the
legislature came back and passed it. During that first campaign, I had an uncle who was
very wealthy and he fronted $13,680 for my campaign. I never will forget that, because I
didn‟t realize there were any ties to it until the vote came up on the income tax increase.
I‟d been down at his farm in Louisiana. I was in Jackson, Mississippi about noon one
day and I called my officemate who was Bill Phelps (who later became Lieutenant
Governor) and he said, “The Governor‟s called us back into special session to vote on
that tax increase.” And then I was informed by my uncle that I was to vote for the tax
increase. I said, “Why?” He said, “Because I committed you to do it.” I said, “Well,
that isn‟t going to work.” So I went in and met with Warren Hearnes and I studied over
it. I told him, “You have to understand that my uncle can‟t commit me to vote. I‟m my
own person.” As a result of this… I remember going in there and the Governor‟s office
it‟s just ahhh, it‟s just awesome, you know? You‟ve got this big beautiful, beautiful
wooden furniture and I love wood. It had this marvelous silver tea serving set. We had
[tea] there. We sat there. Hearnes had had his old stogie, big old cigar, and he sat back.
I remember he put his legs up on his desk, crossed his legs, and we had a real good visit
6 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
about how things would be. And one thing we had an agreement [on] is that we would
never lie to each other. That‟s one thing that I wanted. Then I explained to him [that] we
had to talk about the tax increase. I said, “Now, I can‟t tell you that I‟m going to vote for
it or against it, but on the initial vote I‟m going to vote against just strictly to show my
uncle that he‟s not going to control me.” I voted against the tax increase in the first
round.
[tape meter, 150]
But then after I looked at the program and saw what we could get out of it, I did vote for
it. As a result of that my uncle got upset with me. He allowed me over the years to pay
back every penny that he‟d put in my campaign, which was good for me because that
established my independence.
Warren Hearnes and I went on to work very closely in getting Interstate 55
finished. At the time that I went up there, there was a piece finished in the Bootheel and
a piece finished up around Festus. [Gesturing, indicating two sections moving toward
each other.] Warren Hearnes, he had a kind of a special way of working with people.
He was a people person and he knew how to make things work. Politics didn‟t make him
any difference as long as he was getting something done, you know, productive, that he
wanted or for the people. And Interstate 55 was something that was very dear to him.
You can‟t see it now, but up until a year ago you could… In St. Louis County and in
Jefferson County, there was a lot of politics, there was a lot of corruption in the building
of I-55. In fact, there were a lot of short cuts. Up until they resurfaced last year, you
could see all these that were happening. For example, where that big rock cut is in
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 7
Jefferson County, they pushed ice and snow in the fill and you just don‟t do that. The
contract called for a certain kind of rebar to be so deep [gesturing, indicating depth] in
the concrete. Well, [in] some places the rebar was barely sticking out of the concrete.
And of course, years later you could see this show up. Of course, some of our professors
here at the college blamed it on earthquake, you know, the earth moving. It wasn‟t earth
moving, it was just damn poor construction! Then we got down to the Ste. Genevieve
County line, I met with Mr. Groves and Mr. [Fred] Weber [of the construction company]6
and I told them, “Now, the first thing we‟re going to do is were going to get a new
inspector. We‟re going to get a new inspector for this project. The crap stops right here
at this county line!” Mr. Weber and Mr. Groves looked over at Warren Hearnes and they
said, “Well, what do you think, Governor? What do you think?” And Warren Hearnes
looked over and said, “Gentlemen, I think you should listen to the young man.” As a
result, we had a damn good highway built [from the southern] Jefferson County [line] on
down through here. Until they covered this all up last year you could see it. You could
see the poor workmanship in it.
We got down to Brewer and we had like thirty-five miles in there that were
finished and wasn‟t open. Lyndon Johnson was President and Hubert Humphrey was
Vice-President. I don‟t remember who the Federal Highway Administrator was7, but
anyhow, we had a problem. The Federal Highway Administrator said we couldn‟t open
that highway. This was in the fall of the year. We were going to have to go through
6 In later correspondence, Mr. Bruckerhoff thought that Groves and Weber represented Groves Construction Company from Ohio, but was not completely sure of this recollection. 7 Frank C. Turner
8 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
another winter of people dying from Festus to Cape Girardeau. And we could open that
thirty-five mile stretch up. So the Governor called me and said, “What are we going to
do?” I said, “Well, we‟re going to figure out some way to open the highway.” So we had
a meeting with the contractors and that‟s when they decided that they would build this
concrete strip. Highway M was one mile from [Interstate] 55 to [U.S. Highway] 61.
[tape meter, 200]
The Federal Highway Administrator said we couldn‟t do it. This is where I say you
couldn‟t do this today because the Governor… You know his brother-in-law Bob
[Hunter]8… Anyhow, basically his brother-in-law was over at the Highway Department
and Hearnes had a lot of political pull. They took money from projects -- you know,
borrowed money from projects all over the state to finish this section of highway between
[55] and 61 [at Brewer]. And all the time the Federal Highway Administrator says,
“You‟re not going to open it.” Well, Betty Hearnes is probably one of the most gracious
and brilliant politicians in Southeast Missouri. [She] had a dinner at the Governor‟s
Mansion with the Highway Commission and some people from the Federal Highway
Administration. Of course, you‟re not supposed to talk politics with them. So Betty had
a cake made as big as this table9 and it showed I-55 -- you know, the completed part --
and then [gesturing] over here [on a portion representing U.S. 61] she had a red star on
the cake for every person that had died in like the last fifteen years on that highway. The
old Federal Highway Administrator comes over there and Jack Stapleton [Sr.] was
Chairman of the Highway Commission and they started a conversation about it. They
8 Robert N. Hunter, Chief Engineer for the State Highway Commission. 9 It measured approximately four feet across and eleven feet long.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 9
said, “Well, Mrs. Hearnes, what are those red stars?” She said, “Well, basically what that
is [gesturing, pointing] is this is where we‟ve got I-55 completed and this is where it‟s
open, and these are all the people who have been killed on that highway [U.S. 61] in the
last fifteen years.” Wasn‟t another word said about it! (Laughs) So Warren Hearnes
gets this highway, this little mile [connecting U.S. 61 to I-55] there at Brewer completed
and he decided he was going to open the highway! So he called the Federal Highway
Administrator and said, “We‟re going to open the highway.” [The Federal Highway
Administrator said,] “No, you‟re not. You‟re just not going to open it.” They had some
seeding to do, [and] the shoulder work was done but basically some of the environmental
part of it… So Warren Hearnes called Hubert Humphrey and told [him] what the deal
was. Hearnes was preparing to open the highway and he got a call back from the Federal
Highway Administrator [who] said, “We‟re going to approve it, but we‟re not going to
close these contracts on the seeding and everything like that.” So probably the most
significant thing Warren Hearnes did for Southeast Missouri, in opening that highway a
year early, [it] probably saved maybe fifty, maybe a hundred lives. Maybe my life,
maybe your life, you know. I give him high credit for that. Although today I don‟t think
you could do what we did then. I mean, you just simply go out and you just arbitrarily
borrow the money from Kansas City or Springfield or someplace else and you just do it!
RF: Why do you think you couldn‟t?
VB: Well, because there‟s too many… [Grinning] Well, nobody has the guts to do it.
[tape meter, 250]
10 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
The news media watches things too closely. You don‟t have anybody that can make
those kind of decisions today. This is another thing that… Bob Holden and different
ones [are] talking about a highway czar. We had a highway czar when Warren Hearnes
was Governor. His name was Warren Hearnes! We had a highway czar. And that czar‟s
mission was to complete I-55 and he got it done. I‟d say that they… You know, I.R.S.
[Internal Revenue Service], different ones, rumbling around for years and years. I‟d say
that if anything was done that was illegal, it was the way the funds were transferred
around to finish that highway. But he got it done, and I give him great, great credit for it
because it saved a lot of lives. Of course, it was good for me politically because it ran
through Perry and Ste. Genevieve Counties.
RF: I noticed you were also on the Labor committee for a good number of years.
VB: Yes, I was. And this was an interesting situation because that‟s another one of the things
that… I met a guy by the name of “Pearlie” [Louis] Biehle. He was an old time labor
lobbyist. He kind of took me under his wing. It was very unusual for a Republican. Of
course, for years I was the only Republican representative from Southeast Missouri. I
was fortunate most of the time to have labor‟s support. Even coming from a very
conservative district like Perry County. But on the committee I was very influential in
helping create some balances between city and rural interests. I even had the AFL-CIO10
endorse me and COPE11 and the Teamsters. At that time, the people of Perry County…
Even though Perry County is a very anti-labor county -- Ste. Genevieve County is half
10 American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations. 11 AFL-CIO Committee On Political Education.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 11
and half -- they sort of ignored that because they could understand that or they believed in
the fact that what I was doing was right.
RF: While you were in office did you find lobbyists to be more of a help or a hindrance?
VB: Well, it‟s kind of like the teacher going into the classroom the first day of school.
You‟ve got to let the kids know that that‟s the first day of school, that‟s your classroom,
and you‟re going to be there „til May 30th or whatever, „til graduation, but they may not
be. But you‟re going to be there.
Like I said, I had a very fortunate opportunity to have probably the number one
lobbyist in the state ([who] was George Rozier, the former Senator) and Bob Kingsland
and all of his friends. Everything they did was on the up-and-up. They would come back
-- like the Missouri Wine and Spirits industry and John Britton -- they would come back
and they would legitimately contribute to my campaign.
[tape meter, 300]
I remember one of the first days I was up there, here comes somebody handing me
[some] money in an envelope. It just said [that it was] from so-and-so, and basically the
idea was “We‟re giving you this money but we want you to vote for this bill tomorrow.”
So what I did, I just took that money, that cash envelope and I showed everybody in the
office complex there, and I took everybody out to dinner that night with their money.
(Laughs) I don‟t think I ever got any more cash contributions!
VB and RF: (Laughing)
RF: Who do you think was the most effective lobbyist while you were in office?
12 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
VB: [Thoughtful pause] The most effective lobbyist would have been George Rozier.
George Rozier, Tom Downly (I think it was Tom Downly) with the railroad people,
Pearlie Biehle with the labor people, Bob McDonough. The old timers. John Britton!
John Britton was there. And you had some people that I couldn‟t... You know, I don‟t
remember some of the names. I mean I just actually couldn‟t stand them! They were
repulsive!
RF: How so?
VB: Well, they were very open with “Well, you do this and we‟ll do that”. I know that for
example, I had a seatmate that sold a real important vote on a deal one day for a fifth of
whiskey! Of course, when I went in there you had a lot of old timers. I remember a guy
by the name of [H.F.] “Hoot” Holland. He‟d be there every day. He‟d be there in the
morning before anybody got there and be there after everybody left, but he slept all day
long. That old Hoot would always be there. But the old rascal! If you ever asked him
anything he knew was going on! But how he could just sit there asleep… I mean he just
had a… He was a brilliant man. He was one of those guys you couldn‟t buy him for a
million dollars.
I‟d say the lobbyists that were straightforward would come and talk to you. The
greatest lobbyist for the Conservation Department would have been Osal Capps. He was
a retired general and he was a retired state forester. Well, I‟ll just give you an example.
[tape meter, 350]
There was a guy by the name of… Well, I won‟t mention his name, but he‟s in the
sawmill business. He used to be a forester. Okay, when I first went to the legislature I
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 13
got to meet Osal and developed a good working relationship with Conservation. If they
had a problem they‟d come and talk to me. If I had a problem, I‟d go talk to them. I was
there when we completed the Perry County Lake. That was one of the ongoing projects
at that time. Well, this forester goes out with a state car and was digging worms in the St.
Francis river bottom and was selling worms out the state vehicle on state time. And a
few other naughty little things, you know. So they called him in for a reprimand and I
called him up. Normally I would just fire somebody for that. I said, “Well, I kind of like
the guy. Let‟s give him another chance.” So I called him up and I said, “Osal Capps is in
my office here.” And [he responded], “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah! I know, I know, I know! I
won‟t do it again!” I said, “I‟ll tell you what we‟re going to do. I don‟t know what
they‟re going to do. They‟ll probably give you six days unpaid leave of absence. But the
next time something like this happens, when Osal comes to my office, I‟m going to call
you up. There‟s going to be one question -- How long is it going to take you to get up
here and resign?” So Osal‟s a big tall guy. The first time he came over to my office…
I‟d get there about 7:30 in the morning. [He] came in and closed the door and he said (he
called me “Young Bruckerhoff”), “Young Bruckerhoff, I‟ve got a problem.” And that
was the first time when he told me about this guy. And then we worked through this
thing. Okay, well, it wasn‟t too long later, maybe six months, maybe a year later, he
came in my office one morning and he said, “Young Bruckerhoff, we’ve got a problem!”
I said, “Oh, no, I know who it is!” He said, “Yeah, he went out to look at some timber
and he shot a turkey on the Girl Scout ranch.” It was legal, but it was illegal to hunt
there. [Osal continued,] “And he caught some bass out of somebody‟s pond.” I said,
14 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
“I‟ll make that call.” So I called him up. “Oh,” he said, “I‟ll be there in about six hours.”
So we had him come up and resign. But he‟s a very successful businessman today. But
that’s the way we did things back then.
As far as the most effective lobbyist… Hmm. [Thoughtful pause] I liked Clel
Carpenter who was with the Farm Bureau.
[tape meter, 400]
And there was somebody from the Missouri Ruralist… Twidwell? I can‟t remember. I
wish I could remember all these names, but some guy the Missouri Ruralist was really a
great guy. You know, we‟re going back thirty-something years now, so...
RF: How about the most effective legislator?
VB: Well, that would depend on the issue. The most effective legislators and the best people
there were the people that didn‟t have to be there. They weren‟t there to be on the take,
they didn‟t sell their vote for a bottle of whiskey. They were the citizen legislators,
people that were there to do the job. Your question was the most effective legislator?
RF: Yes.
VB: Well, in [the House] Agriculture [Committee] Earl Sponsler wanted to be, but the most
effective voice for agriculture was [D. R.] “Ozzie” Osbourn from up in Monroe City.
Earl was a nice guy and he‟s still living, but he just had a little bit of “phonyism” to him.
I always had a problem when people would tell me one thing and do another. And Earl
would get up and he would cry about different expense accounts and things like that, and
he‟d be one of the first guys to go pad his expense account. I mean, he‟s still living and
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 15
he‟s a great guy. He played the rural twang a little bit too much, but old Ozzie was just a
real old country boy. Unfortunately, Ozzie died of leukemia or something early.
In [the House] Labor [Committee] it would be Earl Schlef. Earl was the kind of
guy that you could… He was tough. He was an old Pipefitter. But he was effective
because he could sit down and bring a consensus together whereas you had Pat Hickey
who was an old Pipefitter and Pat was the kind of guy that “you either do it my way or
I‟ll crucify you!” (Laughs)
[tape meter, 450]
RF: You‟d mentioned Agriculture. Could you tell me a little bit about your work dealing with
the Agriculture issues?
VB: Okay. [Thoughtful pause] Let‟s talk about Agriculture, then we‟re going to go back and
talk about Roads and Highways again. There‟s a story I want to tell you about that.
RF: Okay.
VB: Agriculture. [Thoughtful pause] Two of the things that I was influential in getting
done… I was in the minority, [and] I was smart enough to work with the Democrats.
Ozzie Osbourn and I got this deal passed where you put an “F” on a license plate to
denote a farm vehicle from a commercial vehicle, which has been a real help to farmers
whenever they go across state lines.
Another thing that I got done… I don‟t tell this too often but I worked for ten
years on getting this dam safety bill passed. It‟s been a damn good thing for rural
Missouri. Jim Williams (who‟s now the state geologist) and I worked on it diligently for
years and years and years. We made it mandatory for people to have a plan, have a
16 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
survey, and see that the core was done right. We went around the state and you could
find dams that they‟d pushed brush in the core and things like that. You know, unsafe.
It‟s kind of like the Corvair -- unsafe at any speed. We got that done, we got the “F” on
the farm plates, we got money back in the program for state fairs. I got the bounty killed
on wolves. A fifteen dollar bounty killed on wolves. I personally did that and I‟m proud
of it. I caught a lot of hell for it.
[tape meter, 496. End side one, tape one.]
[tape meter, 001. Begin side two, tape one.]
RF: Okay, when we stopped you were telling me about your work on Agriculture.
VB: Okay, now another thing I worked (I was in the strawberry business) with the agriculture
experimental stations a lot, tried to help get those improved. I was in the seed business,
so I was interested in the Seed Improvement Association. I helped them get started with
a new lab. Just one those things you … You know, I hated to do it but I really… I don‟t
remember the lady‟s name but she handled the lab over at the University of Missouri, she
handled the seed. I went over there and I just was absolutely shocked to see the poor
working conditions that she worked under and how shabby that the seed was treated. Of
course, I went to the Missouri Seed Improvement Association and told them what I
thought about it. I talked to the university about what I thought about it. Of course, I had
a hard time getting some of my seed approved for certification for a while, but after she
realized that I was trying to help them and we got them some facilities, then it worked out
a lot better.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 17
I was there whenever we started this… You know, we really started improving
the highways over the state.
RF: I think you‟d said earlier you wanted to tell me something about the roads.
VB: Oh, I wanted to tell you about an incident I had with Governor Hearnes. We had this
understanding that if we were going to do anything [we‟d let each other know]. In other
words, if I were going to put the ax to him, I‟d tell him or he‟d tell me. If he was going to
appoint somebody, we‟d always talk about it. Of course, he was going to do what he was
going to do regardless, but he was always nice enough to say “I‟m going to appoint so-
and-so.” Well, I was in the National Guard and they sent us down to Charleston one
weekend. We were doing some work… There‟s two interstate highways coming
together down there, and there‟s seventy-five acres in there where this big complex is
now. I found out that they were about to get… The Highway Department had that land,
and they were about to make a deal to give it to someone. I say, “to give it” to someone
for just a small amount of money. What happened was that… I don‟t think the Governor
benefited from this personally but “Joker” [Harry] Warren [Jr.] was his brother-in-law,
and Bob [Hunter]… (He‟s from here in Cape.) He was also a brother-in-law or some
relation to [Governor Hearnes]. I think he married one of the Cooper girls, one of Betty‟s
sisters. Anyhow, they had this deal where they were going to sell this seventy-five acres
of land to the Charleston Development Corporation for three dollars and they were going
to turn around and sell it to Joker Warren for seventy-five dollars because Joker Warren
was in the Charleston Development Corporation. So I went to Jefferson City the next
morning and went right over to the Governor‟s Office. I said, “Governor, this is not
18 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
good.” Oh, and he got furious! He got furious. He said, “What are you going to do?” I
said, “Well, I want you to stop it.” He said, “I‟m not going to.” I said, “I tell you what
I‟m going to do. I‟m going to go talk to Martin Dugan at the [St. Louis] Globe-
Democrat.” And he said, “The first thing I‟m going to do [is] send Bob down there today
on a state plane and file the deed. Next thing, I‟m going to have your ass removed from
this Roads and Highways Committee.” I said, “That‟s fine, but you‟re wrong on this.
You shouldn‟t do this.” Well, he did what he had to do, I did what I had to do. Now, I
remember I was eating supper over at the Ramada Inn and the Governor comes in with
his big stogie. He said, “Vernon, I took care of you. You got fired from the Roads and
Highways Committee.” I said, “I took care of you, too! The people know about it.” But
they went ahead and did the deal. But it wasn‟t long, about ten days later, I got this nice
letter back from the Speaker [stating] “Well, you know, you can come back to the Roads
and Highways Committee.” (Laughs) And you got to know that Warren Hearnes had
that done! So we had a damn good working relationship. We‟ve been friends. In fact,
when I-55 was opened I gave him a plaque.
[tape meter, 050]
When he had heart surgery here a few years ago I was one of the few Republicans that
came to see him. I‟d say that Warren Hearnes and Betty Hearnes are very, very dear
friends of mine. Even though we had some ups and downs!
RF: What sort of interaction did you see between the Speaker of the House and the House
members as a whole? I‟m thinking… Was it Richard Rabbitt?
VB: No, we had Jim Godfrey first. Then we had Richard Rabbitt.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 19
RF: Okay.
VB: And I liked Dick Rabbitt and I liked Teresa [Rabbitt]. Had a wonderful family. You
could work with him one-on-one, but he was greedy. I‟ll tell you an example... Greedy
and vindictive. I hate to say that, because if I saw him today… I mean, I have a deep
respect for him because we did some things together. For example, I came up with this
idea to have this veteran‟s license plate. Of course, he stole it from me but I said, “That‟s
okay, Dick. Let‟s do it.” So we did it. We were at a legislative conference down at
Miami, Florida one time. Dick Rabbitt was sitting at the table and unbelievably, a guy by
the name of Jimmy Carter was sitting at the table too. He was the Governor of Georgia.
I remember we had such a good time picking on him because he was telling us he was
going to be President! I got such a kick out of that, being a kid, that this little guy from
Georgia could become President. And I didn‟t even have my picture made with him!
Well, there was a centerpiece of flags. I happened to be the one who won that at that
table and Richard Rabbitt wanted that for Teresa real bad. I said, “I‟m not going to give
it to you. I‟m taking it home.” He said, “I‟ll tell you what, Vernon. I know something
very dear to you. Next term, you won‟t be on the Roads and Highways Committee.” I
said, “Well, you just do that. You just do that, because I got I-55 done. You take me off
for one term if you want to.” And he did! And I‟ve still got that centerpiece. I never
will forget that. But he wanted that centerpiece so bad for Teresa. But now, if his wife
would have come up and said, “Vernon, I‟d sure like to have that”, I‟d have given it to
her. I‟d have given it to her. I probably would have given it to him, too, but [he took the
attitude of] “I‟m taking it.” You know, you don‟t do that!
20 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
RF: What sort of effect did it have on the membership of the House when Mr. Rabbitt was
convicted on influence [peddling] charges?
VB: Oh, devastating, devastating! Really the sad part of it is, is that probably the little bitty
things he got convicted for... I don‟t feel he was a criminal or a crook but he just [was]
greedy, greedy. Little petty things. Oh, devastating. Very devastating.
RF: How did it play out in the House when (I think it was in ‟72) there was proposed
legislation to limit the Governor and Lieutenant Governor to one term?
VB: (Chuckles) That was dead on arrival! Because when I was in the college I worked very
hard for getting the Governor to run for a second term. If that‟s what you‟re asking.
Dead on arrival. No way!
RF: What effect did it have on the interaction in the House when [Christopher] Bond became
Governor? The first Republican Governor since 1944?
VB: Okay. Well, “Kit” Bond is a work of art. I like the guy and he‟s probably my favorite
politician. He‟s just a real good guy. But we‟ve had our ups and downs too. Kit Bond
ran for Congress…
[tape meter, 100]
Of course, Kit Bond‟s father and grandfather were from Perry County. And my
neighbors are related to Kit Bond. He had some very near relatives in Ste. Genevieve
that were good friends of mine. I was elected to the legislature. Kit Bond had been
defeated for Congress. He was working for John Danforth and I organized the first
“Bond for Governor” club. I was the first member of the legislature to get out and
endorse him. This is a tough thing, too, because Bus King was the Minority Leader and
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 21
Bus was real good about giving money -- money, money, money -- lots of money to
Republican candidates! I told Bus, “I can‟t support you. I‟ve got to support Kit. I
believe in him.” We went to that deal where they questioned his citizenship or his
legality for running, whether or not he had established residency in Missouri long enough
to run for Governor. And I’ll never forget, I was in Jefferson City [and] there was an old
fellow by the name of Robert Ellis Young, a representative. Ah, a dear guy. Talked too
damn much, but a dear guy. And could remember anything. I mean anything! Down to
the debate on the bears on the Broadway Office Building or the Jefferson Office Building
out there on High Street. He could remember the day and the hour and the time. I said,
“Mr. Young, what about that?” He said, “Well, young man, you can count on one thing.
Bond might be wrong! He may be a resident of Georgia. But the Supreme Court is
going to rule in his favor.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Because historically the aristocracy
takes care of the aristocracy. Bond is aristocracy. He‟s from an aristocratic family [and]
the Supreme Court is [made up of] aristocrats. They‟re going rule in favor.” And that‟s
exactly what they did! (Laughs) So I want to talk about Kit Bond a little bit.
RF: Sure!
VB: Kit was elected Governor. Oh, when he was elected Governor, oh man, there was just so
much stuff left! These people that… I always told Hearnes his downfall was… When
somebody did something they shouldn‟t do or if he knew about it, he should just fire
them! Call them in and fire them. Just point blank. And he‟d do that with one or two of
them it‟d stop it. Then whenever they started leaving state government they just took all
kinds of stuff. They‟d take machinery. I don‟t know how they did it. I could tell some
22 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
things that are probably better unsaid. But anyhow… So Kit calls me in and he said,
“Vernon, you helped me out. What do you want?” I said, “Well, I‟ll tell you what.
Governor, I‟m happy in the legislature. I don‟t want anything. All I‟m going to do is
we‟ve got I think like seventy-two departments or seventy-nine departments in state
government. I‟m going to put a friend in each one of those departments.” He looked
back and said, “I‟m going to get off that easy?” I said, “Yep, today you are!” (Laughs)
And the amazing thing is, is that a lot of those people I helped get jobs are still up there.
It‟s really great!
So later on in his term he got pretty cocky. We had some major disagreements.
Kit Bond, he committed a cardinal sin. He lied to me. He lied to me, and that didn‟t go
over too good. Dr. [Mark] Scully here at the college was a good friend of mine. C.A.
Juden was on the Board of Regents and he was just a perfect asshole! He gave Dr. Scully
a hell of a hard row to hoe! I remember Dr. Scully coming to my house [in] St. Mary‟s.
[tape meter, 150]
I told him, “Kit Bond has personally guaranteed me that he will not reappoint C.A. Juden
to the Board of Regents.” So Dr. Scully comes on back and we thought we had it done.
Monday morning, Kit Bond appoints the son-of-a-bitch back to the Board of Regents!
RF: Did he give he give you any reason for it?
VB: No! I went in there and I said, “Why in the hell did you do this? You know we had an
agreement that we‟d never lie to each other.” He said, “Well, I had a political
commitment. Somebody that I had to fulfill it.” I said, “Kit, we sat right there in Perry
County at McBride, and you promised me before [Adjutant-General] Charlie Kiefner,
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 23
you promised me that you would not reappoint that man to the Board of Regents. And
you did it!” He said, “I just lied to you.” I said, “Well, don‟t ever lie to me again.”
Okay, it really strained our relationship. I still like the guy [and] still work with him. In
fact, I was in the strawberry business and I went over and planted some strawberries in
his garden at the [Governor‟s] Mansion. And I dearly loved Carolyn [Bond].
Then we were working on the Chester Bridge. For some reason, Jack Danforth
and Kit Bond would not, would not help me at all with the Chester Bridge. They would
not help me work to get the toll off the bridge. I had a lot of resistance from the people of
Perry County, too. Of course, at that time, [in] Perryville the leaders were pretty
backward. A couple of examples -- They opposed taking the tolls off of the bridge
because Perry County got $16,000 a year. And Chester, and these other people (crooks),
got a million dollars.
They opposed… We were building this… At [Interstate] 55 I wanted to put a
service tunnel under the highway. The mayor said, “Vernon Bruckerhoff, this is the
craziest idea you‟ve ever had, kid!” So we went back to Jefferson City and Bob Hyder
and Jack Stapleton said, “What are we going to do?” (Chuckles) I said, “We‟re going to
put the damn service tunnel under it and cover it up.” About fifteen years later the
businessmen out there at Perryville said, “Oh, Perryville will never grow out to the
interstate!” Look at it today! Some guys came to my house at 1:30 in the morning and
got me up. They said, “You know, we heard you tell the story at the Optimist Club one
night about this service tunnel out there. Is it there?” I said, “Yeah, it‟s there. It‟s not on
24 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
the blueprints, [but] it‟s there.” And it was there! Can you imagine what it costs to put a
service tunnel under an interstate?
Then when we were working on the by-pass. Oh, man! Wal-Mart came to
Perryville. Nobody would come out to Wal-Mart to the opening! Charlie Kiefner called
me up. He was Adjutant-General, a dear friend of mine. Charlie said, “Vernon, I hate to
ask you to do this, [but] Wal-Mart‟s coming to Perryville. Now, I know so-and-so knows
Sam Walton. Nobody‟s going to go out there to the official opening. Would you go
down to Perryville tomorrow morning and be there?” So I leave Jefferson City, and go
down there, down there to the grand opening of Wal-Mart. Not one of official of Perry
County came out to the grand opening! I made some nice comments about Wal-Mart
coming to Perryville. Well, the Rozier clan, then that following summer, they got
drinking a little bit. They met me there at the Seminary Picnic and they told me how they
were going to go out and beat my ass because I‟d supported Wal-Mart.
[tape meter, 200]
Then we wanted to build that [Highway] 51 by-pass. And oh, man! We had a
meeting. I was the only one who supported it. So I go back to Jefferson City. Of course,
I had a good working relationship with these guys. And they made fun of me. So we had
this meeting down there, and [they said] “It didn‟t look to good for you!” I said, “I know
it didn‟t.” So Bob Hyder was my good buddy. He was the Chief Counsel. [Suddenly
remembering] Bob Hunter was the guy‟s name that was the Governor‟s brother-in-law
or whatever! Anyhow, Jack Stapleton and Bob Hyder, they had it all fixed up. Bob
Hyder prepared a resolution that [stated that] they had a meeting in Perryville and a
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 25
majority of the people of Perry County were represented by the Representative who was
in favor of the of the by-pass [and] they were going to build it. And we built it! What
would Perryville be today without that by-pass? But everything I‟d try to do, they‟d fight
it!
And every year I got a new bridge put in Perry County through outdoor recreation
funds or… Hearnes appointed me or somebody appointed me to this Mississippi River
Parkway Commission. Boy, I had a good way of getting money for Perry and Ste.
Genevieve Counties. Of course, my uncle owned a lot of land [and] I owned a few farms.
For some reason, those bridges seemed to get built close to our farms. But it helped the
people.
But the Chester Bridge, Jack Danforth would not help me, Kit Bond wouldn‟t
help me. And then Kit lied to me again. Dan Walker was Governor of Illinois, [and] I
think Paul Simon was Lieutenant Governor. But Paul Simon, he was the one who had
enough guts to say “Yeah, yeah, we need to do something about it.” Of course, the
congressman, Dick Gray12 from Southern Illinois, he was benefiting from it
tremendously. I even went to his office in Washington, D. C. [Grinning] He came in
and he said “Now what kind of dirt do you got on us now?” (Chuckles) At first they
humored me and then they got pretty damn serious when they found out that I was going
to do it. They even had people come to me and offer me something like one-fifteenth of
a percent or one-fifth of a percent of the money they took in. [Something] like $50,000 a
year just to keep my mouth shut. I wished I’d had a recorder!
12 Kenneth James Gray.
26 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
RF: (Laughs)
VB: Tom Eagleton was Senator, and he passed a law that the states could get together and
take it over. Well, for about two years Kit Bond had promised me that [he] was going to
meet with Dan Walker. I called Dan Walker up. This I remember very specifically.
They had a meeting. I was in St. Louis or somewhere on the seventeenth of April of
whatever particular year it was. Of course, Hugh Sprague13 and all of them [were
saying], “Oh, Kit is going to meet with Dan Walker and we‟re finally going to have this
meeting and we‟re going to do something to help with the Chester Bridge.” Well, they
had the meeting. The Governors met. I went down and talked to Kit -- I remember it
was on the twenty-first of April that year.
[tape meter, 250]
I went down and talked to him and I said, “Well, how did it go?” “Well,” he said, “Dan
Walker wouldn‟t even talk to me about it. Wouldn‟t even meet to talk to me about it.”
Well, I went down to my office and I picked up that phone and I called Dan Walker.
Takes some guts, doesn‟t it? Dan Walker liked me, and I said, “What happened?” He
said, “Kit wouldn‟t meet with me, wouldn‟t talk to me. He won‟t even discuss the bridge
with me.” I said, “Will you meet with him?” He said, “I‟ll tell you what. You go down
to Kit Bond‟s office and tell him I‟m in my office right now. This is my personal
number, and you tell Kit Bond to call me right now and I‟ll meet him tomorrow. I‟ll
come to Missouri. I‟ll meet him on the bridge, I‟ll meet him anywhere. I will meet with
him on getting the tolls off of the Chester Bridge.” I went right back down to Kit Bond‟s
13 Candidate for Missouri U.S. Representative for the Sixth District in 1970.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 27
office and walked in there and I said, “Governor, I hate to do this to you but you‟re lying
to me! You‟re lying!” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I just talked to Dan
Walker.” Boy, he got blue and red! I said, “You’re a liar! You lied to me! You lied to
me!” And I was mad! I wasn‟t mad, I was furious! I said to Kit, “I want to know one
damn thing. Are you going to help me with the Chester Bridge or not?” He got up, he
grabbed me by the collar and then the Governor‟s [office has] got that side door, he
pushed [me]… He said, “I can’t, I ain’t, and I won’t!” And he pushed me out that
elevator! Okay? I don‟t know what his connection was but somehow they had a money
connection between Fox and Placht14 and the Danforth family and the Bond family. I
don‟t know if they owned bonds in it or what, but they absolutely refused! Jack Danforth
would tell everybody, “That‟s Vernon‟s issue”! But I‟ll say one thing for John Ashcroft,
he did try to help me. I had the help of everybody else, but when you don‟t have the help
of the Governor of your state, you‟re screwed! And we had a hearing, we finally had a
federal hearing on it. That was one of the biggest things I did. I got the ball rolling and
we got it done.
Well, Kit Bond then found out that those people that I put in those state agencies
could get more done than he could get done. I wasn’t vindictive, but then the license
plate deal came up. Well, I didn‟t want one, but since Kit Bond said you can‟t have one,
I decided to get one. So I went over and I said, “Kit, I‟m going to get me a low license
number.” [He said,] “Oh, no, you‟re not.” Yeah. I went over the next day and showed it
to him. [He said,] “How the hell did you do that? I put out an executive order that they
14 Auditors in St. Louis who prepared audit reports on the Chester Bridge tolls.
28 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
couldn‟t put these out!” I said, “They don’t pay no attention to your executive orders!”
And my number was 979. I didn‟t keep it, but oh, man!
But what I did for the Governor, I did it in good faith.
[tape meter, 300]
[Grinning] I mean, I could be a little mischievous! And I‟d give him a hard way to go
on his education bill. He sent [Carroll K.] “Chip” Casteel [Jr.] over with this education
bill and I practically ran him off. Young kid. I said, “You go back and ask the Governor
why he sends a kid over here that hadn‟t even graduated from college to try to tell us how
to run the Department of Education!” I could be mean, too. Then the straw that broke
the camel [‟s back] -- Kit Bond was running for re-election. Of course, you know he and
Carolyn were fighting. Well, I want to back up. But I‟ve got to tell you about the state
fair thing.
This is a good one. Equal Rights Amendment. All my dear friends here at Cape,
like George Ketcham, they were for it. My dear Aunt Rose (who‟s in Heaven now) had a
petition. I got thousands and thousands of signatures from people in Perry and Ste.
Genevieve Counties [to] vote against the Equal Rights Amendment. I mean, everybody
was against it! I never did say how I was going to vote on it. And my Uncle Nick was
strictly opposed to it. Well, Kit and Carolyn… This was very dear to Carolyn. The
morning of the vote, even though I was mad at the Governor… The Governor knew that
if he needed anything he [should] send Carolyn over to talk to me because I wouldn‟t tell
her no. Carolyn came over to my office and we sat on the couch. She said, “Vernon, I
know how difficult it is for you to vote for this, but we need the Equal Rights Amendment
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 29
dearly.” I said, “Do you know how much trouble I‟m going to be in? You know Uncle
Nick‟s going to be just furious about that. Carolyn, I want to vote for it, and I‟ve got
some really good friends that are for it that I have a lot of respect for.” One was George
Ketcham here at the university. I figured if an old grizzly bear like him would be for it, I
should be for it. He was my history teacher and I really looked up to him. And so I
voted for the damn thing! And it passed! A couple of hours later I got a call from my
Uncle Nick. He said, “I just heard that you voted for the Equal Rights Amendment!” I
said, “That‟s right.” He said, “Can you explain that?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Well,
you get your butt down here Thursday night and explain it to me.” [When we met he
said,] “That‟s the most horrendous vote you‟ll ever cast! How could you vote for the
Equal Rights Amendment?” I said, “Nick Bruckerhoff, Uncle Nick, about an hour before
the vote, Carolyn Bond comes over and sits in my office and puts her arm around me
[gesturing, batting his eyes in imitation of Mrs. Bond] and says „Vernon, I need you. I
need you.‟‟‟ And he said, “Vernon, I understand, I understand, I understand, I
understand.” And there was never another word said about it!
VB and RF: (Laughing)
[tape meter, 350]
VB: State Fair that year. The Governor‟s, the Legislative Breakfast. Now was a dingy. At
the State Fair… Joe Teasdale was walking across the state, okay? He happened to be in
Sedalia that morning. So Kit Bond and his crew decided that Joe Teasdale wasn‟t going
to come to the Missouri Legislators‟ and Governor‟s Ham Breakfast. And I decided he
was! He was outside in his boots and he was just a little bit upset that they weren‟t going
30 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
to let him in, so I went in and talked to the Governor. I said, “Governor, Kit, you can‟t
do this. You just can‟t do it.” [Bond said,] “Well, we‟re going to do it. We’re not going
let him in! He‟s running against us.” [I said,] “No, no, no, no. We‟re not going to do
this. I‟ll tell you what I‟m going to do. You can either let him in or I‟m going to go out
there and I‟m going to give him my ticket. Or I‟m going to bring him as my personal
guest and you [can] throw me out too.” And they just looked stunned! By the time I got
to the door, the Highway Patrol said “Mr. Bruckerhoff, you can bring your guest in.” Joe
Teasdale never forgot that. But the arrogance of people! I wouldn‟t do nobody like
that! Of course, then Kit paid for a lot of his sins and got beat. (Chuckling) By Joe
Teasdale! (Laughs) But Joe Teasdale he was an interesting… He was a work of art! A
lot smarter man than the press ever gave him credit for. He never lied to me. He never
lied to me. If he told me something and he had to back up, he would walk in a
snowstorm to tell me. I mean, that‟s just how dear his word was to him. It was just so
much to go over to the mansion whenever he was over there. He just… There was
something about him. He took a bad rap from the press. He was just a lot better person,
a lot better Governor than they gave him credit to be.
RF: Seems like almost there was more cooperation between the political parties than you‟d
see today. Were there many votes that just went strictly down party lines?
VB: Oh, yeah. But on the things that counted…
[tape meter, 400]
The reason we got things done is that we had enough people in rural Missouri that we
could get together with Kansas City. I worked very closely with… We had about twelve
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 31
or thirteen blacks. I could always get them to go with us because we would vote with
them. On the things that counted for rural Missouri we could either reach a compromise
or they (St. Louis and Kansas City) found out that if they didn‟t work with us that they‟d
have a tough time getting what they wanted. Because Kansas City and St. Louis together,
they couldn‟t agree on anything. We had to decide what was best for them.
That‟s why I got appointed to that Governmental Affairs Committee for a couple
of years, and I had fun on that committee. I mean I had fun on that committee! You
wouldn‟t believe! Because all the stuff that goes through that you have to have
unanimous consent. (Chuckles) I was the only rural person on that committee. I think…
Well, Bob Griffin specifically appointed me to that committee because he knew that I
would accomplish what we needed to do. And that was sending St. Louis and Kansas
City the message that “Hey! We‟ve got to have some things too!” They had a bill (I
don‟t know what it was) but oh, it was really dear to them. And you had to have
unanimous consent! That means that Vernon Bruckerhoff had to vote for the bill or it
couldn‟t get out of committee! Unanimous consent lets it go out and goes right to the
head of the calendar. Well, I don‟t remember what we wanted, but anyhow I said, “You
know, you go back and tell…” I knew Dick [Richard] Berkley personally. He was
Mayor of Kansas City. I said, “I‟ve met Vince Schoemehl [Jr.]15 and Gene McNary16 --
when I was a college kid I went out and campaigned for him and went to St. Louis, rode
to St. Louis on weekends and knocked on doors and put out literature for him when he
15 Mayor of St. Louis 16 McNary was St. Louis County Executive at the time this event took place.
32 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
was running for St. Louis County Prosecutor. You know, I‟ve been here like ten years,
eleven years (whatever it was) and I haven‟t seen any of those guys!”
[tape meter, 450]
What do you think? Next morning at seven o‟clock who do you think showed up at my
office? Dick Berkley, Vince Schoemehl, Gene McNary! Amazing change! (Laughs) I
said, “Well, here‟s what we‟re going to do.” We talked about the things that rural
Missouri wanted and what they needed. I said, “Now, what I going to do. Now, I made a
pretty damn strong commitment that I wouldn‟t vote for that bill. So what I‟m going to
do when it comes up for unanimous consent, I‟m going to have a telephone call so that
your bill will pass.” But I had a lot of fun in the legislature.
RF: It sounds like it!
VB: I had a lot of fun.
RF: Let me ask you a question about campaigning. How did that change through the years
when you were running for office?
VB: It just keeps getting more vicious and more expensive. First time I ran against Dennis
Brewer who was the Prosecutor [of Perry County] and beat him. And the next time
Agnes Moore [who was] Clerk of the House ran.17 That was tough, because she was
there [and] she was watching me everyday. Then the next time, they had a deal put
together. Of course, I had friends in the Democratic Party. They always told me what
they were going to do to me. Agnes Moore filed, then this guy by the name of Mike
Bauman came back from Vietnam. [He was] a Vietnam hero with a leg shot off and he
17 Mrs. Moore had also served as the Representative of Ste. Genevieve County in the late 1950s.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 33
was going to be the candidate [for the Democratic Party]. So I got to thinking about it. [I
thought,] “You know, the best thing I can do is run away from home!” [Grinning] So I
went to Europe that summer.
RF: (Chuckling)
VB: I‟m serious! (Laughs) I went to Europe! And I‟d write a column back about roads and
highways and stuff in Europe. And here he was at home yakking about, oh, “Vernon‟s
out carping in Europe.”
[tape meter, 496. End side two, tape one]
[tape meter, 001. Begin side one, tape two]
VB: So Mike was out… I felt sorry for him. But I never attacked him, I just ignored him.
Then he really got mad. He said, “Are you running for representative or are you running
for Mayor of Europe or what?” (Laughs) So I spent my whole campaign talking about
my trip to Europe. And I won!
RF: How big a part did the media play?
VB: In that campaign they played a great part because when I came back from Europe, the
Ste. Genevieve Herald gave me a whole great big page front page spread about what my
observations about things [had been]. Pretty hard to beat! And of course, we had the
Chester Bridge going at that time and I-55 was finished.
RF: What about your work in education since you were [formerly] a teacher and I saw that
you were on the Education Committee for a good number of years?
VB: (Chuckles) Well, Education, that committee was the most frustrating damn thing I ever
served on. First thing, I guess I was one of the few people who understood the School
34 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
Foundation Formula. Because I had a man by the name of Vance, Superintendent Vance
[of] Perryville High School, and he took the trouble to teach me… He hired me to teach
school. When I got elected to the legislature, he took the trouble to teach me the School
Foundation Formula and work with me real closely. I represented a district that had
about half the kids in private schools. I don‟t think there‟s anybody that could write a
formula that would be fair to the people in these districts where half the kids are in
private schools. It made us look like a real rich district. And I was always frustrated
because I couldn’t get anything done for my schools. I was able to help get grants and
things like that, but I never could get the formula changed to recognize the kids that went
to Lutheran and [Catholic schools]. I‟ll just put it plain, I couldn‟t get my Baptist friends
to recognize the fact that Catholics and Lutherans are citizens too! And count them in the
equation! I think of all the things in the legislature, the most frustrating thing was
Education. I never could get that done. And it‟s still not done.
RF: What do you think was your greatest accomplishment then?
VB: The whole damn time or what? (Chuckles)
RF: (Chuckling) Well, just pick one, I guess!
VB: Oh, I think my greatest accomplishment was when I crossed that Missouri River the last
time and looked back at that Capitol, I had a peace of mind that I did what I thought was
right and I didn‟t sell my soul. And I‟m always proud to go back. The people up there, I
mean they just… They still love me.
RF: You‟d mentioned earlier that one fellow had sold his vote for a fifth of whiskey?
VB: Yeah.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 35
RF: Was he an alcoholic or was it just…? Was alcohol a problem in the legislature?
VB: No, no. He‟s dead now. Yes and no to alcohol. You know, a young kid could go up
there and… (Laughs) I went up there when I was twenty-five. I guess I grew up in the
legislature, really. Alcohol. No, the guy he was a former schoolteacher [and] he was in
the National Guard. I guess he was just greedy, just greedy.
[tape meter, 050]
Now on the other hand, there was a guy by the name of Tony Heckemeyer who
was from the Bootheel, a very dear friend of mine, a Democrat. My first term up there I
had a bill to try to save the little school out at Sereno. We had a little school district out
there. It was an icy, snowy morning and Tony Heckemeyer was going to law school over
at Columbia. He called me that morning and he said, “Do you need my vote?” I said,
“Tony, I need your vote to get eight-two votes to pass my bill.” Tony drove over in an
ice storm from Columbia to be there to vote for my bill and cast the deciding vote. Now
that is loyalty! That is loyalty. And then the other guy sold his vote for a fifth of
whiskey. I probably would have given him twenty-five dollars! (Laughs)
RF: What do you think is the most controversial thing you got involved in, maybe where you
had to vote against what you perceived to be the wishes of your constituency?
VB: When I got crossways with the Farm Bureau. That and reapportionment were probably
why I got beat. I was the Farm Bureau‟s darling, a farm boy. For years, I worked with
them on the food projects, their cattle projects, their heifer projects, [until] their
36 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
establishing a “monument”.18 I was their darling for years and then they put together this
deal to sell their building to the State of Missouri. I was sitting in the Roadway Motel
one morning quietly eating my breakfast and listening and I heard some people talking
about how they had appraised the building for 1.2 million and then they got the appraisal
changed to three million and they were going to shove this down the state‟s throat. When
they got this done there was going to be $100,000 or $200,000 divided up. Kit Bond‟s
committee was going to get like $70,000 and Bob Griffin‟s committee was going to get
$40,000 or something like this. And I looked into it [and] found out a lot. I couldn‟t
prove where the money was going. I got up and I made a speech on the House Floor that
it was a dirty, rotten, stinking political deal and that we shouldn‟t do it! As a result they
went out and they fought me tooth and nail. And they beat me! But I held that project up
for several years. In fact, the day after I was beat Kit Bond (the Governor) and whoever
else was on there… There were three people on the Board of Public Buildings, I think.
Kit Bond, Ken Rothman, and probably it might have been John Ashcroft (I don‟t know).
They went over and signed the deal that the state could buy that building. But I held it
hostage! If I‟d have got re-elected, they never would have! The state never would have
bought that building.
But they beat me. But the nasty way that they did it! They took excerpts from
my speech and then they went out and [for example] there was a vote on a balanced
budget amendment one day and it was beat by one vote. I was gone and they said I was
out looking at cattle. What they didn‟t tell is that they took me up… There was a big
18 Mr. Bruckerhoff later clarified this, noting that when he spoke the word “monument”, he was referring to the Farm Bureau‟s sale of its building to the state of Missouri.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 37
controversy about the steer project and the bull project and the heifer project over at the
University of Missouri. So who‟d they call? They called me, came and picked me up
and [I] spent half a day with them to analyze it, talk to the kids, talk to people. Because
in fifteen minutes I‟ll learn more than a lot of people will in a whole day just talking to
people. We came back and I‟d missed the vote. They crammed that down my throat.
Just little things like that. Well, they did. It was nasty. It was really nasty. Lowell
Mohler‟s (who is now the Secretary of Agriculture) wife was my secretary and over the
years she has a pretty good list of people from my district that were pissed off at me, mad
at me. So they knew right where to go to. I credit them with putting me out of politics.
[tape meter, 100]
That and I had some other things, but… Then a lot of people afterward like Jeff
Schaeperkoetter… You ever meet Jeff?
RF: No, I haven‟t.
VB: You ought to interview him. He was a judge and a senator and a representative. He
always said that was the most brave thing he ever saw anybody do is whenever I got up
and took on the Farm Bureau. After they beat me, [when] they‟d threaten people [they‟d
say] “We‟ll Bruckerhoff-ize you. We‟ll give you the Bruckerhoff treatment.” And a lot
of people are scared to death of them! I still have people come up to me every day
[when] I go to Jefferson City [that will say] “Oh!” [Last word said while shaking his
head indicating a negative emotion] But I don‟t think they are as powerful as they were.
[tape meter, 110. Portion edited out containing incidental conversation clarifying names mentioned above. Interview resumes, tape meter, 115.]
38 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
RF: How did the Hancock Amendment play out when you were there?
VB: Well, let me tell you another little human interest story. Mel Hancock came to Jefferson
City. Of course, you know Mel is kind of abrasive. You kind of have to cut through the
air and the quick [mannerisms] to understand him. Well, Mel came up and… (Was Bob
Griffin [the] Speaker?) Anyhow, I think Bob Griffin was Speaker at that time. I‟m not
sure. But anyhow…[Pauses, looking to see what interviewer is examining]
RF: I have a little chart there [and] I was looking to see [who the Speaker was.] It looks like
Bob Griffin took over in ‟81, so Ken Rothman…
VB: When did we pass the Hancock Amendment?
RF: It was [in] ‟80.
VB: Okay, would Rabbitt have been Speaker then?
RF: No, it would have been Ken Rothman.
VB: Okay, Ken Rothman was Speaker. Alright. So Ken Rothman and the Democrats and the
Republicans, they were scared to death of Mel Hancock. So they decided they were
going to bar him from the House Chamber. No way! No way! Okay? So I told (I don‟t
remember who the House Republican Leader was) “This ain‟t going to fly. This ain‟t
going to fly. If the man wants to come in, we‟re not going to do anything to give him
more publicity.” [They said] “We‟re going to close up the Chamber.” I said, “No, I‟m
going to bring him in the House Chamber.” “Oh, no we‟re going to bar him.” I went up
and told Ken Rothman, “Mel Hancock‟s out there.” Well, Pat Hickey was the Speaker
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 39
Pro Tem.19 Oh, you know the St. Louis people just hated him!20 I told them, “Hey,
you‟re not going to bar him from the House Chamber. I‟m going to bring him in.” I
went up and told Ken Rothman, “Ken, this ain‟t going to fly.” He said, “What do you
mean?” I said, “We‟re not going to treat that man like that. We might hate him, he might
be the worst S.O.B. in the country, but if he wants to come in and be introduced [then]
he‟s going to come in and I‟m going to introduce him. If you want to throw him out then
you throw me out too.” He looked at me real funny, and he called down to Pat Hickey
and he said, “Inform the doorkeeper that the gentleman from Perry is going to bring Mr.
Hancock in and introduce him.” Things like that were just stupid! Absolutely stupid!
[tape meter, 150]
One of the first times I met Warren Hearnes… In the Capitol, there used to be a
corner where they had the postings of legislative activity. Warren Hearnes called that
“Idiot Alley”. (Laughs) That little corner there! Some days I thought the whole damn
place was Idiot Alley!
RF: (Laughs) In ‟74 the state [government] re-organized. Was there a lot of controversy
going on there?
VB: Oh, yes! Yeah, there were five of us to vote against that, five of us. And we were the
“Abominable No-men”. Because I thought there was no way that we were doing it that
we were going to really re-organize and have efficient state government. I thought all we
were going to do was set up a major bureaucracy, and that‟s what happened. I think we
19 Pat Hickey became Speaker of the House immediately after the Hancock Amendment was approved by the Missouri voters in the 1980 General Election. Bob Griffin was Speaker Pro Tem of the House when the debate on the Hancock Amendment was occurring in the legislature. 20 Referring to Mel Hancock.
40 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
had 17,000 state employees in ‟74. When I left in ‟83 we had 79,000 state employees.
Now tell me that‟s efficiency. But, on the other hand, I was able to put a lot of my
friends in state jobs. That‟s the good part of it. But efficiency… Government is like
money. Government has a propensity to grow. And it‟s going to grow as fast as the
legislature is able to tax and appropriate money to grow it. And there‟s no end to it. If
there‟s no end to the money, there‟s no end to the growth of the state government.
RF: Which is sort of where the Hancock Amendment came in.
VB: Yeah. I wasn‟t [and] I‟m not an avid supporter of Hancock. In fact, I told Mel Hancock
at the time, “I don‟t understand this thing! Do you really understand the state budget?
Do you really understand what you‟re trying to do?” And his response was that he
thought he did. But I don‟t think he did. The state budget is just so God-awful now it‟s
unbelievable. Nobody really knows what all‟s in that thing.
RF: How about in ‟78 when the Right to Work referendum came up?
VB: Oh, boy! (Laughs) ‟78. You know, I was like a pig on ice. And I was out there
squealing. I never did basically… That‟s one thing I did play politics on was the Right
to Work thing. Basically my position was if they could come up with eighty-one votes I
would give them the eighty-second vote. I didn‟t really think it would work, didn‟t think
it was good because you take like Perryville. Perryville is an anti-union [town]. I‟m not
pro-union or anti-union. I think it has its place if the people that are working there can
elect the people that they think can control it. Perryville‟s got themselves into a position
where we‟ve got too many low paying jobs. I don‟t know if you can change that with
unions or not but I never did really believe that the Right to Work would help Missouri.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 41
And the interesting thing was is that at that time I was riding back and forth with Vic
Downing and Lew Maddox. And Victor was the big Right to Work person! I tell you
what, there were times that it was really scary! Victor thought that they were going to try
to do away with him!
[tape meter, 200]
This had nothing to do with it, but one time we left the Capitol and we were going down
the highway and the front wheel fell off of his car. Lew Maddox said, “Victor, they‟re
going to get you! And get us too!” (Laughs)
RF: Makes you re-think your way of getting to work, huh?
VB: Yeah!
RF: How about when capital punishment was reinstated? How did that go?
VB: Well, I voted for it.
RF: Was there a big fight going on over it?
VB: Oh, there was a big fight going on that! In fact, the culmination of it was… Of course, it
had a pretty good majority support, but the day that it passed the legislature we had a guy
in the legislature by the name of Frank Kostron from St. Louis County. Frank was a very
avid supporter of the death penalty and “Jet” Banks was a very avid opponent. I never
will forget this! This is one of the hilarious highlights of the thing. Frank Kostron comes
in in a white gown and speaks for it. Jet Banks comes in in a black gown and speaks
against it! (Laughs) Amazing! Just absolutely amazing! I guess I got off the subject.
RF: That‟s okay.
42 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
VB: It‟s a hell of a serious thing to put somebody to death. But there has to be a deterrent to
keep people from going out and killing somebody or committing some really serious
crime about like that.
RF: Is there anything you would have done different? Looking back on it now, hindsight
being 20-20?
VB: [Thoughtful pause] Hm-mm. Well, I don‟t know. If I had to do it over, I probably
would have picked my fight with Farm Bureau a little different than I did it. I probably
would have done that. That was a pretty dumb political move. But I couldn‟t trade my
experience in the legislature for ten million dollars! There is no way! It‟s an education
and you learn people. It‟s amazing. And so many stories you can tell. I want to tell you
a story about Lew Maddox.
RF: Sure!
VB: Lew is a gentleman farmer from down in Dunklin County, married a lady by the name of
Becky. I think she inherited quite a bit of land. Lew‟s just one fine guy, and always had
a different outlook on life about things. Vic Downing was very serious and very
religious, and on Monday mornings when we were riding to Jefferson City, Vic would
always want to talk about church and how he‟d get up and have an argument with the
preacher.
[tape meter, 250]
I don‟t know if Lew took religion serious one way or the other. So one time the big
discussion was whether or not there was Heaven or Hell. And that was interesting. The
way they ended it up, Lew looked over to Victor and he said, “I don‟t think…” Victor
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 43
said, “Lew, where do you want to go?” Lew said, “Oh, I tell you what, Victor, I‟ve been
thinking about that. I‟d kind of like to go to Heaven, but I don‟t believe I want to go
where you‟re going.” Victor said, “Why is that?” Lew said, “Because wherever you‟re
going there ain‟t going to be no fun!” (Laughs)
And then Quincy Troupe! You‟ve got to interview Charles Quincy Troupe! This
is his last term in the legislature, a black guy. Anyhow, Quince sat there in the legislature
and Lew sat behind him probably for four to six years. Right out there in the middle of
the Chamber. Probably barely even spoke to each other. One morning we were going to
Jefferson City and Lew had something on his mind. I said, “Lew, what do you have on
your mind?” He said, “That old Quincy Troupe sits in front of me, that colored boy. He
just inherited a big farm down there where my wife‟s family has some land. Do you
reckon he knows what he‟s got?” I said, “Ah, he‟s pretty sharp!” He said, “Oh, I bet I
can buy that [at] about $600 an acre.” So, Lew talked about his approach. I said, “When
you going to pop the question to him?” He said, “Well, we go in session on Monday and
I think Monday right after session would be good. [I‟ll] catch him now before he knows
what he‟s got.” So Quince always sat there a little bit after session, glasses down his
nose, he‟d kind of dream around for whatever reason or the other. I went over there with
Lew. He said, “Hey, Quince. How you doing?” Quincy got up [and said,] “Oh, Mr.
Maddox. How are you doing?” Lew said, “Quincy, I saw where you just inherited a nice
little farm down there in the Bootheel.” “Yeah,” he said, “Mr. Maddox. I did.” He
[Lew] said, “Well, I‟ll tell you what I‟ll do. I‟ll just take that off your hands for about
$600 an acre.” And Quince got up and went around, turned around and looked at Mr.
44 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
Maddox over his glasses. He said, “I‟ll tell you what, Mr. Maddox. You just give me
$1,600 an acre for the land and you can call me „boy‟!” (Laughs) If you interview
Quincy ask him about that! I saw him the other day and he said, “Yeah, that‟s going to
fit in real nicely with my retirement plan.” That‟s what he told me a couple of weeks
ago. Quite a guy!
RF: What do you think was the biggest change that you saw during your years in the
legislature?
VB: The biggest change was we had a better quality of people getting elected to the
legislature. We had more educated people. People that knew and understood more about
government.
[tape meter, 300]
See, I came in at the time after you had the first re-apportionment and the second re-
apportionment. As a result, a lot of the… It was unfortunate for a lot of these rural
counties. But you had a lot of people there that were just there, like Hoot Holland. He
was smart, but what did he ever do? Then you had Fonnie Brenton, an older fellow. He
was a school superintendent, and he was brilliant on the budget. You had people like
that, that I hated to see go. But you de-concentrated the power of the rural areas and at
the same time you didn‟t really concentrate more power in Kansas City and St. Louis.
But you gave the state more balance, re-apportionment gave us more of a balance. We
had to cope with that by developing alliances within regions, having a rural alliance, and
working with Kansas City, and our working with the blacks out of St. Louis. I think it
made for better government. Even though I voted against re-organization of state
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 45
government I think it… I can‟t say that it streamlined government, but I think it set
government up for the growth that we‟ve had. It provided a mechanism that government
could grow. You know, I talked about this “government has a propensity to grow”.
Under the old system, I think you would have probably got bogged down too much in
politics and political appointments and that type of thing.
RF: Do you think there‟s a place for idealism in politics today?
VB: Oh, absolutely! I don‟t see how you could have a government without… If you don‟t
have idealistic people in there, your government won‟t work. You‟ve got to have people
that have new ideas and want to do things and want to change things. But then you also
need people (and this is one thing that scares me about this term limits thing)… I can go
up there now, and most of the people in the Senate I served in the House with and know
personally. And I know other people like Peter Kinder. I‟ve known Peter since he was a
little kid. I have a great respect for that guy. Peter Kinder probably has the best
command of the King‟s English of anyone I‟ve met in my lifetime.
[tape meter, 350]
He has a brilliant mind, he has a way of putting things together. But he can goof up a
little bit. I had to call him last week. They came out with this re-organization plan, and
they were going to fire Kim Green [who is] Senator [Harold] Caskey‟s assistant. And I
told Peter, “Peter, you can‟t do that.” He said, “Well, Vernon, I‟m trying to save
money!” You know, he rattled off that he‟s got $104,000 and another $50,000 and blah,
blah, blah. I said, “Peter, you‟re wrong. You‟re right, but you‟re wrong. You just can‟t
do it. You just cannot do it! You just absolutely cannot do it!”
46 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
RF: It‟s political suicide.
VB: I guess he was shocked. I don‟t want to say he‟s a “good kid”, but I love the guy and I
hate to see him put himself in a crack. And I called him back and talked to him about it
again. And I think he got halfway upset with me. But I said, “Peter, you‟d better think
about this. You just cannot do this!” He said, “You mean it won‟t fly?” I said, “You
just don‟t knock somebody like Senator Caskey.”
RF: Well, just speaking strictly from the public‟s point of view, that didn‟t fly too well since
Caskey is blind and that‟s [Green] his aide. That wasn‟t looking too good.
VB: Well, I hadn‟t ever met Kim Green but I called Kim up and I said, “Kim, I don‟t know
you from Adam [but] you tell Harold Caskey that Vernon Bruckerhoff called and my
message is to you „Don‟t pack your bags.‟”
VB and RF: (Laughing)
VB: But after term limits, I‟m not going to know anybody up there. Do you think anybody
will listen to me if they don‟t know me? I like getting on the phone and calling Harold
Caskey or Jim Mathewson or Morris Westfall or John Schneider or Peter Kinder.
RF: Do you see anything positive coming out of term limits?
VB: I‟m trying! I‟m trying, I‟m trying. The only thing I can see is that… (Chuckles)
Positive? [Pauses] Well, we live in a very quick age. We live in an age of computers.
Kids that are going to school today are coming home and doing algebra on a damn
machine. They‟re doing a little thing …[gesturing as if using a keypad] I had to figure it
in my head. These kids can‟t add thirty-six and thirty-five! They can‟t do it without a
computer.
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 47
[tape meter, 400]
Now, I can take a column of figures and add it probably faster than your average
computer if they‟re straight up and down, but I can‟t add numbers or read numbers
across. I‟ve had trouble all my life with… I‟ll get numbers, telephone numbers mixed
up. I don‟t know why. That‟s a problem I‟ve had. And I think term limits is kind of like
me getting my numbers mixed up go across there. You‟re going to have all these people
in there that don‟t know a damn thing about government! I was there thirteen years and I
didn‟t know everything I needed to know about government! I learned something
everyday! You‟ve got people up there in the Senate now that have been there twenty-five
and thirty years. Look at all that knowledge! What if you took a group of people… I‟m
going to use Peter Kinder for an example now. Peter, in his heart, he was doing what he
thought was right. He was cutting the budget. But it‟s the human element of it! If
there‟s a human element… You don’t go out and take Harold Caskey‟s aide away from
him! I don‟t care it costs a million dollars! [I told him,] “Peter, you just don‟t do it.”
Okay, let‟s say we have this term limit thing. There‟s going to be a hundred people [that]
come in new at one time. And those hundred people are going to go out at the same time.
Those hundred people can do anything that damn please! They‟re going to have a
majority [in the] Senate, they‟re going to have a majority in the House. It takes eighteen
votes in the Senate and eighty-two in the House. They‟ve got enough [votes] they can do
anything they please! They can pass taxes, they can be mean and cruel and heartless or
they can be compassionate. They can raise taxes. What kind of people are they going to
be? How are people going to learn to do all that that quick? Just like Bob Holden. I
48 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
mean, I like Bob Holden. Peter Kinder said, “Vernon, what do you think about Bob?” I
said, “Give him a chance. Go meet with him. Meet him one-on-one. He‟s a good guy.”
[tape meter, 450]
And then they talk about Bob being weak. But I said, “You know, Peter, do we want a
Governor that‟s just so damn weak that he can‟t do anything?” And he said, “No.” I
said, “Well, don‟t put him in that position.” But look what… Term limits could cause a
very vicious political cycle. Very vicious political cycle! If we elect people that just
strictly are going to crunch numbers and are going to run the state with computers. I
don‟t know how the mix is going to be. Now, you‟ve got a personal mix along with the
computerized programs and what have you. I don‟t know. Just like Senator Caskey said
whenever they told him they were going to fire Kim Green, “We‟ll cope.” We‟ll cope
with it. But I think it‟s really going to be a sad day for Missouri!
RF: Did you have anything specific in mind that you wanted to be sure you put into this
interview or…?
VB: (Laughs) Oh, probably an hour from now I‟ll think of something else. I‟d just like to say
that I think I‟m very fortunate that I had an opportunity to attend the college here at Cape,
become a legislator; serve the time I served there. Whether my being there made a
difference or not…
[tape meter, 492. End side one, tape two.]
[tape meter, 003. Begin side two, tape two.]
VB: I don‟t know if it made any difference if I was there or not. I saw so many things change.
I spent a lifetime studying people and working with people. You know, I could have
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 49
some pretty low days. Last summer I had heart by-pass surgery and I was overwhelmed
with the people coming to see me [who would] say “You remember you did this for me
or you did that for me?” People were just so gracious! And I can go to Jefferson City
today… And just like this little cousin of mine… I went up there with him to get a truck
license. Of course, I went by to see [Representative Patrick] “Pat” Naeger and see some
of our friends. You go out to reciprocity and you in there and then people say, “Hi,
Vernon.” This young guy, Jason Austin, he said, “Hey, you know some really important
people in high places!” That‟s a great feeling! To be able to do things, [to] get things
done, to be able to pick up the phone and talk to people like Peter Kinder. I wish I had
more time to do it. [Pauses slightly] You know, this country was founded on the
principle of a citizen legislature. When I went in the legislature, when I looked around
and studied the people, the people that really got things done were the people that weren‟t
there for the money. They didn‟t have to be there. They were there -- not that they had
an ax to grind, but they had a good heart and they had a desire to do something. And I‟ve
seen some real kooks! I‟ve seen really, really, really kooky people like… [Grinning] I
won‟t mention their names but… I even… [Francis] “Red” Markwell, I sponsored the
bingo bill with him. Red is probably the biggest kook that ever served in the legislature!
(Laughs) But he‟s a great guy! But how this thing is going to play out in the future when
we get away from the citizen legislature, that concerns me. When I went up there the
salary was [something] like $4,800. And my pension is now almost five times that. I
don‟t know if there‟s any justification in it. Of course, it takes a lot of money to make
things go today. But with term limits, I don‟t see how we‟re going to have this element
50 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
of continuity in government. When I went up there I could sit and talk to people that‟d
been there for twenty or twenty-five years, and I could learn a lot from them. You go up
there today, and you could talk to people that have been in the Senate… Like Quincy
Troupe. Look how long Quincy‟s been in the House. This is his last term. Ron Auer‟s
last term was the last time. Some of those people that have been there a long time, they
may have not done earth-shaking things but it takes more than a computer to run this state
and run this government. I hope I‟m here twenty or twenty-five years from now and can
see what happens, but I‟d much prefer to keep the system as we have it now. I think it‟s
really a good process because you‟ve got people that you can go to and say, “How does
this work? How does that work? What was the legislative intent thirty years ago
whenever you passed that bill?” You‟re not going to have that, you‟re just not going to
have it. And I‟d say that unfortunately you‟re probably going to have mean-spirited
people that will keep a Joe Teasdale away from the State Ham Breakfast. You‟re going
to have people that will keep Mel Hancock off the House Floor.
[tape meter, 050]
You‟re going to have people that will actually fire Senator Caskey‟s aide. Because it‟s
just going to be a matter of crunching numbers. What I don‟t know is what‟s going to be
the cement that‟s going to hold the lot together. But just hope I live long enough to see it.
I wouldn‟t trade my experience for anything. Like I said, the last day, it was a sad day
for me. When I made my farewell speech, I knew that I was going to be defeated in the
election. I drove across the river and looked back at the Capitol. I thought about the first
time I went up there as a representative and looked at the Capitol. I looked over at the
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 51
Capitol and I could say, “Well, I served my time there and I have no regrets. I‟m proud I
was there.” It was a great trip. I guess probably even after the legislature… I went there
at [age] twenty-five, and I was young enough that I developed friendships and still
develop friendships with people that go up there. It‟s great to have people like Jim
Mathewson (I talk to him once in a while) and say “Hey, what do you think about this?”
The big thing they‟ve been asking about what was this highway czar, and I tell them the
story about Warren Hearnes and Bob Hunter. We had a highway czar when good old
Warren was Governor! I guess we talked about Warren Hearnes, we talked about Joe
Teasdale, we talked about Kit Bond, and I guess we ought to talk about John Ashcroft a
little bit.
RF: Sure!
VB: You know, John Ashcroft, I remember the first day he came to Jefferson City. Kit Bond
appointed him State Auditor. That was a good move. Then John got beat as State
Auditor and he ran for [Missouri] Attorney-General. John Ashcroft would come down to
Perry County. I had a 1974 red Ford pickup. We‟d ride in parades together. Once or
twice a month, on a Thursday at eleven o‟clock, John would invite me over to the
Supreme Court Building and we‟d have a pizza [and] chocolate chip cookies that Janet
[Ashcroft] made, and lemonade or tea. We‟d talk about this, that, and what have you.
Very smart man. John Ashcroft never did lie to me. He pretty well always kept his word.
But there‟s something about him that I‟ve never been able to put together. In this last
campaign last year, I tried for two years to get across his people and to him. A lot of
people have said, “Well, I don‟t like John Ashcroft.” But when you ask them why, you
52 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
don‟t know why. Of course, this [U.S.] Attorney-General confirmation thing… He‟s
probably just a little bit too straight-laced. Now whether or not he was a good Governor,
whether he was a better Governor than Mel Carnahan, I don‟t know.
I‟d like to say a word about Mel Carnahan. I never had the opportunity to deal
with him one-on-one on any particular issue, but he always knew me [and] he was always
gracious. One thing I know about Mel Carnahan was that he really was sincere about
helping people that were down and out. That‟s one thing I‟ll say for him.
RF: Do you have an example?
VB: Yes, I‟d say that my own personal experience…
[tape meter, 100]
After I left the legislature I had some financial problems and I remember seeing him one
day when things were at their lowest end. He came over and talked to me, and he said,
“Vernon, if there‟s ever anything I can do to help you out, I‟d do it.” And I never forgot
that. Never forgot that. I‟ll tell you another example. Going back to George Rozier.
Jim Rozier who lives up there [Jefferson City] now and Elizabeth lives there. Elizabeth
and Jean [Carnahan] are good buddies with the Preservation and Historical Society. So
George Rozier had this low [automobile] license number for… [Grinning] I want to say
a hundred years, but not quite that long. Well, anyhow, it came up in the campaign
[about] selling these license numbers. So Jim went over to renew the low license number
and he was told he had to turn it in. The guy told him, “Well, you know it‟s worth
$10,000 in St. Louis County.” So Jim called Elizabeth Rozier (his mom). Mom calls
Jean. Jean has the Highway Patrol come over to pick her [Elizabeth] up to take to the
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 53
[Governor‟s] Mansion. And they discussed their problem. Jean tells Mel, and Mel says,
“You‟re going to keep your low license number.” So he sent a memo over that told them
over at the Department of Revenue that they should keep that license number. Well, Jim
Rozier goes over with this letter and they still wouldn‟t give it to him. So, lo and behold,
Jim calls his mom, his mom calls Jean, the Governor comes over to the Department of
Revenue and said, “Now, what‟s going on here?” Jim told him about all this stuff. He
said, “I won‟t approve of that.” The Governor ordered them to give him his low license
number, and fired all those people involved in it right there. You didn‟t see that in the
media! But, you know, it says something for the man. I don‟t know how many million
things we could talk about, but… (Laughs)
RF: Well, I‟m not sure if they need this room for something else. I‟d spoke to the secretary
earlier [and she had indicated a time frame for the use of the room]. Do you have any
closing comments?
VB: [Thoughtful pause] All I can say is… The country, the government was built on a
citizen legislature. I would encourage anybody and everybody, regardless of their
politics, their social issues, [or] what they do, to someday run for public office. And if
they‟re fortunate enough to serve in public office, to appreciate the fact that we live in the
greatest country and have the greatest system in the world. I wouldn‟t trade my
experience in the legislature and work with people for ten million dollars. You couldn‟t
sell it! If anybody reads this [interview] in the future is going to go into politics even
after term limits, the best thing you can do if you go into state government is try to learn
the workings of the department and if you‟re going to be effective, try to establish a
54 VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris
friendship or a personal relationship with a person or persons in those departments.
Because regardless of how much machines and computers take over, when it gets right
down to the real basic decisions of state government, they‟re going to have to be made by
people.
RF: Well, thank you very much for meeting with me today.
VB: You‟re welcome.
[tape meter, 150. End side two, tape two. End of interview.]
VB = Vernon Bruckerhoff; RF = Renae Farris 55
INDEX
AFL-CIO See American Federation of Labor - Congress of Industrial Organizations American Federation of Labor - Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO), 11 American Federation of Labor - Congress of Industrial Organizations, Committee on Political Education (COPE), 11 Apportionment (Election law), 45 Ashcroft, John David (1942 - ), 28, 37, 52-53 Auer, Ron (1950- ), 51 Austin, Jason, 50 Automobile license plates - Missouri, 28, 53-54 Banks, J. B. “Jet” (1926- ), 42 Bauman, Mike, 33-34 Berkley, Richard “Dick”, 32, 33 Biehle, Louis “Pearlie”, 11, 13 Black, Richard “Dick”, 2 Blackwell, Earl R. (1923- ), 6 Bond, Carolyn Reid, 24, 29-30 Bond, Christopher Samuel “Kit” (1939 - ), 21-24, 26-31, 37, 52 Bond family, 21, 22, 28 Bounties - Missouri, 17 Brenton, Fonnie L. (1899-1985), 45 Brewer, Dennis, 3, 33 Bribery - Missouri, 12, 13, 26 Bridges (Perry County, MO and Chester, IL), 3-4, 24, 26-28 Britton, John (1925- ), 12, 13 Bruckerhoff, Nick, 29, 30 Campaign funds - Missouri, 6-7, 12, 22 Capital punishment - Missouri, 42-43 Capps, Osal B. (1917-1997), 5, 13-15 Carnahan, Jean Anne Carpenter (1933 - ), 53-54 Carnahan, Melvin Eugene “Mel” (1934 - 2000), 53-54 Carpenter, Clel, 15 Carter, James Earl, Jr. “Jimmy” (1924 - ), 20 Caskey, Harold L. (1939- ), 46-47, 48, 49 Casteel, Carroll K., Jr. “Chip”, 29 City-city relations -- St. Louis, Missouri - Kansas City, Missouri, 32 Colyer, Ron, 2 COPE See American Federation of Labor - Congress of Industrial Organizations, Committee on Political Education Cooper family, 18 Dams - Law and legislation -- Missouri, 16-17
Danforth family, 28 Danforth, John Clagett “Jack” (1936- ), 21, 24, 26, 28 Daniels, Mike, 2 DeClue, David, 2 Degenhardt, Martin P. (1918-1970), 3 Downing, Vic (1916- ), 42, 43-44 Downly, Tom, 13 Dugan, Martin, 19 Eagleton, Thomas Francis “Tom” (1929 - ), 27 Education - Finance -- Missouri -- School Foundation Formula, 34-35 Educational law and legislation - Missouri, 29 Electioneering, 3, 33-34 Emerson, Norvell William “Bill” (1938 - 1996), 4 Employee theft, 22 Equal Rights Amendment (ERA), 29-30 Farm Bureau See Missouri Farm Bureau Federation Farm trucks license plates - Missouri, 16-17 Fox and Placht, St. Louis, Missouri, 28 Franklin, Rose E. Bruckerhoff (1914-1999), 29 Globe-Democrat, St. Louis, Missouri, 19 Godfrey, James E. “Jim” (1922-1986), 5 Governors - Missouri -- term of office limits, 21 Graham, Thomas D. “Tom” (1922-2000), 5 Gray, Kenneth James “Dick” (1924 - ), 26 Green, Kim, 46-47, 49 Griffin, Bob Franklin (1935- ), 32, 37 Hancock Amendment (1980), 39-41 Hancock, Melton D. “Mel” (1929 - ), 39-40 Hearnes, Betty Cooper (1927- ), 9-10, 18, 19 Hearnes, Warren Eastman (1923 - ), 4, 6-11, 18-19, 22, 26, 40 Heckemeyer, Anthony J., Sr. “Tony” (1939- ), 36 Herald, Ste. Genevieve, Missouri, 34 Hickey, Patrick J. “Pat” (1928- ), 16, 39-40 Holden, Robert “Bob” (1949 - ), 11, 48-49 Holland, Horton F. “Hoot” (1898-1973), 13, 45 Hunter, Robert N. “Bob”, 9, 18, 19, 25 Hyder, Robert “Bob” (1910-2001), 5, 24, 25 International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen, and Helpers of America, 11 Interstate Highway system - Missouri, 4, 7-11, 18, 19, 20, 24 Juden, Charles Andrew “C. A.” (1901-1987), 23-24 Keifner, Major General Charles M. “Charlie”, 24, 25 Ketcham, Dr. George, 29, 30 Kinder, Peter D. (1954- ), 46-47, 48, 49 King, R. J. “Bus” (1913-1997), 5, 21-22
Kingsland, Bob, 5-6, 12 Kostron, Frank E. (1916-1987), 42 Labor unions - Missouri, 11-12 Legislators - Missouri -- alcohol use, 35-36 Legislators - Missouri -- educational background, 45 Lieutenant Governors - Missouri -- term of office limits, 21 Limbaugh, Rush, Jr. (1918-1990), 2 Limbaugh, Stephen N., Sr. “Steve”, 2 Lobbying and lobbyists, 11-13 Lobbying - corrupt practices, 12, 13 McDonough, Bob, 13 McNary, Gene, 32-33 Maddox, L. W. “Lew” (1924- ) 42, 43-45 Markwell, Francis “Red” (1933- ), 50 Mississippi River Parkway Commission, 26 Missouri. Board of Public Buildings, 37 Missouri. Department of Conservation - professional ethics, 14-15 Missouri Farm Bureau Federation, 36-38, 43 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Agriculture Committee, 15 Missouri. General Assembly. House - corrupt practices, 12, 13 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Education Committee, 34-35 Missouri. General Assembly. House - factions --“Abominable No-men”, 40 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Governmental Affairs Committee, 32 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Labor Committee, 11, 16 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Roads and Highways Committee, 19, 20 Missouri. General Assembly. House - rules and practice, 32 Missouri. General Assembly. term of office limits, 47-49, 50-51 Missouri, Perryville, 24-25, 41 Missouri - Politics and government -- Anecdotes, 9-10, 40, 42, 43-45 Missouri - Politics and government -- reorganization (1974), 40-41, 45-46 Missouri Ruralist, 15 Missouri Seed Improvement Association, 17 Missouri Wine and Spirits Industry, 12 Mohler, Mrs. Lowell, 38 Moore, Agnes I. (1905-1992), 33 Mueller, John H., 3 Newspapers, 3, 19, 34 Olmstead, “Butch”, 2 Osbourn, D. R. “Ozzie” (1923-1985), 15-16 Perry County Republic, Perryville, Missouri, 3 Phelps, William C. “Bill” (1934 - ), 6 Political ethics - Missouri, 12, 13, 15, 18-19, 26, 36-38 Rabbitt, Richard J. “Dick” (1935- ), 20-21 Rabbitt, Teresa, 20 Right to Work Amendment (1978), 41 Roads - Design and construction -- Missouri, 4, 7-11, 24-26
Rothman, Kenneth J. “Ken” (1935 - ), 37, 39-40 Rozier, Elizabeth, 4-5, 53-54 Rozier family, 25 Rozier, George A. (1902-1984), 4-6, 12, 13, 53 Rozier, James A. “Jim”, 53, 54 Rust, Gary W. (1935- ), 2 Schaeperkoetter, Jeff W. (1949- ), 38 Schlef, Earl Lawrence, 16 Schoemehl, Vincent, Jr., 32, 33 Scully, Mark Finney (1910-2002), 23 Shepley, Ethan, 4 Simon, Paul Martin (1928 - ), 26 Southeast Missouri State University, Cape Girardeau - Board of Regents, 23-24 Southeast Missouri State University, Cape Girardeau - College Republicans, 4 Southeast Missouri State University, Cape Girardeau - Student Council, 2 Southeast Missouri State University, Cape Girardeau - University Center, 2-3 Sponsler, Earl L. (1913- ), 15-16 Sprague, Hugh, 27 Stapleton, Jack, Sr., 9, 24, 25 Teamsters (trade union) See International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of America Teasdale, Joseph Patrick (1939 - ), 30-31 Troupe, Charles Quincy (1936- ), 44-45, 51 Turner, Frank C., 8-10 United States Highway 61, 9-10 University of Missouri - Cattle project (ca. 1981-1982), 37-38 University of Missouri - Work environment, 17 Vance, Supt. ______, 35 Walker, Daniel “Dan” (1922 - ), 26-28 Wal-Mart, Perryville, Missouri, 25 Warren, Harry, Jr. “Joker”, 18 Williams, Dr. James H. “Jim”, 16 Wood, Tom, 2 Young, Jim, 5 Young, Robert Ellis (1919- ), 22