Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

TUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 1913

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2628 Axjournment. [COUNCIL] Joint Committees.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ..

TcESDAY, 11 NoVEMBER, 1913.

The PRESIDENT (Hon, Sir Arthur Morgan) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPERS. The following papers, laid on the table, were ordered to be printed :- Rl•port of the L nder Secretary for Pub­ _lic \Yorks and Government Architcc' on his tour through Europe, Great Brit .tin, F nitnd States of America, ;,;nd Canada. Third Report of the Workers' Dwellings Board for tho year 1912-13. Report on tlw Government Central Sugar Mills.

SCSPB~SIOK OF ST \NTll~G IU.'LB~ AND ORDERS. On the motion of HoN. _\. H. BARLO\Y it v-;a, rl•,olwd- .. That so mu. h of the Standing Rules and Orders be suspended, for tho rc­ maindc>r of the session, as would other­ \Yise preclude the passing of Bills. through all their stages in one day."

St:~SPEKSIOK OF STANDING ORDER No. 76.

On the motion o£ RoN. A. H. BARLOW, it was resoh-ed- " That so much of Standing Order ::'>!o. 76 be suspended as requires the plans, sections, and books of reference of proposed rail ways, received from the Le

JOINT COl\HIITTEES.

('O"TINT'ATION DeRING R:P. ,L;:JS,

On the> motion of Ilo'l. A. H. BARLOW, it was rosohed-- " 1. That, i11 the opinion of this Ccun­ cil, it is dc,,irable that tho rnntlem.on constituting, rospndivcly, tlw Joint Librarv Committee, thn Joint Rcfresh­ rnpnt-r'Ooms Committ('1>, and the Joint Buildine-o Committee should continuo, to control, during the recess, the scYorul matters committ c·d to 'heir charg·e as ;;uch connnittof's during the ~c"·sion~ "2. That the abo•,'c resolution he for­ wardl'cl to the Legis!ativB Assembly by mesFage inviting their concurrence therein. Pure Seeds Bill. [11 J\'OVEMBER.j Pu1·e Seeds Bill. 2629

CRIMINAL CODE AMENDME::"!T BILL. get about a 90 per cent. crop." He (Mr .. Stephens) understood that, if the Bill was \ME~D~IENT o~ MoTro~ FOR THIRD passed, thG storekeepers would say that they READING. kept corn and wheat for the farmers' fowls, The ATTOR::"!EY-GENERAL (Hon. T. but they would not keep seed whu:~t or seed O'Sullivan) moved the insertion, on line 27, corn, and they would be able to evade the page 2, of the heading "Amendments as to law in that manner, if the Government Criminal Appeals" bdoro subclause (4) of allowed the law to be evaded in that way. dause 2, which would become subclause (3). He agreed with the Minister that, if the Amr'ndmcnt agreed to. ftmcndment was agreed to, it would make the clause optional, and possibly the best thing· would be to drop the Bill altogether. THIRD READING. Hox E. J. STEVENS was not mor<" sur­ prised· at the amendment than he was at On the motion of the ATTORNEY­ the means of evading the Bill proposed by GEXER~\L, tho Bill was road a third time, the hon. gentleman who repi'esented the passed, and ordered to be returr,ed to the Government. On looking at the title of the Ass0mbly b_, mes,ago in thp usual form. B1ll, he sa\> that it was "A Pure Seeds Bill.·' If there was anything in the Bill at all, it was to provide that pure seeds only PURE SEEDS 13ILL. should he us8d in this country. 'The "amend· mont provided that bY an agreement, verbal COMMITTEE. or otherwise, inferior seeds could be sold. That was entirely against the spirit of the (Han. W. F. Taylor in thr chair.) Bill, and it would not be a Pure Seeds Bill Clauses 1 to 4, both inclnsiY<'! put and at all under an arrangement of that kind. passed. He should certainly vote against tho a;nend­ ment, but ic would be a good thing after On clause 5--" Invoice to be given b"· \"dl­ the amendment was defeated to dc'eat the dor; '' .:trranty '' -- clause altogethe1·. l-Ie had n1a.de inquiries Ho]';. \V. V. BRO\Y::"!: The clausP com­ nu_tside Parliament, and he had been unable pellred a seed merchant to give a "·arranh to find anyone who w:.ts in favour of the with regard to all seeds sold by him, and Bill. The farmers were against it, as they imposed conditions which it was quit" im­ said thoro wac, nothing in it, and the ·SBBd possible for him to comply with. \Vhon n1er{lhants were entirely against it, as it farmers camB into the city to buy seed, they would place them in an absolutely false had the opportunity cf inspecting the seed, position. They had to import their seed and they know then what they were gotiing, from other countriPs, and they had to buy .so that there· was really no occasion for snch it without any warranty or guarantee at e.ll, a dradtic waTrantt~ in that ca,Je. He could and yet, when they sold it, they were called quite understand that,. when people living in U[lOn to guarantee that it was pure seed. remote places in the country S<'llt down to a If the Bill was carried out in its entirety, seed merchant in the city for seed, they it vmuld mean that no seed would be im: should have some warrantv that the seed was ported, as no seedsman would run the risk. .suitable for their purposes, and then the \\'arranty should stand good, unlhs tho pur­ HoN. A. J. THYN"'"E: The object of the {)haser agrE'ed in writing not to require a Bill was to provide that farmers would not warranty. He, therefore, moved the omis­ havB seed palmed off on them which wa• sion, in linrs 38 and 39, of the words "not­ use1ess. and also that they should have seed withstanding any agreements to th·~ con­ which was not contaminated with seeds of trary," with the view of inserting the words weeds, which wonld be a very serious injury " unlee, otherwise agreed in writing bv th(• purcha'"Or." ·' to them. \Yith regard to testing the germi­ nating qualitv of seed, that was a very HoN. A. H. BARLOW: The effect of the simple matter. Any farmer, simply by put­ amendment would be to make the Bill purely ting a qu'lntity of see,! between a. couple of optional. Nobody would have to obey it shec.ts of blotting paper for three or four unless he felt inclined. Exception was taken days, would be able to tell what the gcrmi­ on the second reading that a farmer would nn.ting qualit:- of the seed was. Then,_ 'iS not be able to sJ!l a bag of seed wheat to to weeds in seeds. that was a more serwus his neighboar. There was nothing in the matter, and one that required a good deal Bill to prevent him doing so. of consideration. Se\eral weeds had been introduced in imported seeds, and it was Hon. \V. V. BROWN : He is a vendor. desirable that the hrmers should be pro­ HoN. A. H. BARLOW, He as a vendor, tected, but the cheJk should not be on the but he was not a seed merchant. .'1. farmer s·oedsman alono. It should bu as tight, if

·countries. He had tried some little experi­ RoN. A. J. THYNNE asked in what H;.ent: in grass seed.. He sent to {' very respect the Bill differed from the Yictorian [Hommc·nt seedsman m anothor country-a Act. man of very high standing-and he got a Ron. P. J. LE.\HY: It is more drastic than ~mall packet of seed •and sowed it, nursed thD Victorian Act. 1t, and looked after it c_arefully, aml he was ven. much _mterested m the shape of its HoK. A. H. BARLOW said the Bill had growth, and 1t struck him as being wmething been a ikcd for by the farmers, and it had qmte ne\v, but he afterwards found that it been brought in in their interPsts, and, a.• was a differ<'nt graos altogether to what he soon as thL Go.-ernmcnt did that, hon. mem­ had '-1skPd for. '.rhat '·" ...ts sorne t-vrclve vears bers gut up and said that fa,nwrs did not «go, and there were still wmp remnan'te of want it, and they had th~ ar;Hy of ~eeds­ ~hat grab~ in the place where he had )Janted mcn in opposition to it. \Vitl) rq·ard to 1t. It might do ·-orne good if buyers could the importation of seccl, as tho Hon. :\lr. Thynno pointed out, it was a simple matter get an option of in,c:i.jting uvon a. g-uarante1 ) and tlw a:t_nendmc!lt ,,-as one that would h' a bigg,·r pric8. should be given for thocc inkrected in the p111 to. have an opportunity of comnmnicat­ Ho:t-: ..\. J. THYNNE: Any request made mg w1th that Chamber in am, way thev by the farmers wa,; entitled to consideration; thought fit and to tell hon. members wha:t btrt neither the farmers nor anv other class they thought of the Bill. So far as he wore entitled to rsk ParlianFnt to do what could see no one had taken th1. trouble to Pr:r1iament considered«unfair and uniust. say that they were in favour of the Bill. On the other hand, he had been vcaitcd lioN. A. A. DA YEY: Thu Bill was .,.-en on by men interested in tiiP sale of seed,, worse than another measure \vhich was before and_ he had_ alco receiyed a circular letter, thorn recently, also oste:,sibly for the pro­ stahng d1stmctly that the Bill w>s going tection of the farmer's.. The Bill proposed _to be a very gc eat hardshi!J on the seeds­ tJ do an impossibility. Those men. They pointed out that 90 per cent. [4 p.m.] "ho knew shtcd that it \'HS not of the seed sold in Queensland was irn­ po'm to pass te~ or warranty of any kind in connection leq;islation irnporing upon seedsn1en an obli­ wit_h that seed. In fact the conclitions on gation which they could not possibly fulfil. whwh they bought "0rc entirely ugaill3t a For the locally ~

but he (lilr. Johnson) was in a position to the value of a crop that might lnve re­ state that the great majorit.r of the brmers mit•,cl. \V e think, for the protrally, that snme united unsurmountable difficultiE', for them. If a action should be taken immediately; .the farmer sold a bag of seed he would have to \ ic"OJ·ian _\ct is pressing mo t unfarrly giYf~ a guarantu..: that tho seed ''as pure, and heavilv alreadv on the Yirtorian and that it was poe·· 'ocd of germinating trades." .., .., powLr, and various other things, and it Han. \. H. BAHLOW: Do YOU believe that ,·:ould really require a lawyer to draw out that statPnwnt is true,; I d.o not. It is an the wananty for him. Thoro seemed to be attempt to intimiJat•· the Legislature. a Tt irntHe<-,iun on the v :trt of ·.ouw hon. members that tho Bill only applied to Bris­ Hox. T. A. JOH?-, but it '-'·PPliod to e·{ery town in the Ycrv reliable fa·m ancl he W'lS cnre they State. An arnF of inspector" \Yould be re­ o,;]d not :nako a~v statement that they did (jliirnd and tho:· ,,·auld give the farmers and not br lieve to he" true. To impo_se such the scoL dsman a great f1ea! of troub:e in harsh n ,trictions on the farming community carrying out tlwir r·:utic~'. If an inspector -. auld be a grm., injustice, and h~ hoped found 'ecd that "·as not altovcthcr pure, he hon. mcm~1ers -,, culd not pass th<· B1ll. might confi.,.c.Jtc thn seed, and the . endor of The ATTOR="'EY-GE?-d mcl'­ th( '·'·ere , 2 , inst th<> BilL Thev were the chant in Tom· oomba, had -writt< 1 a letter to one cla~s in -'tho <.:'lfrununity who1n everyone thP PrP"· on the Hill. Ilc v auld read tv, o \vould pxpe~t tu bn ag~in~t tho rneasu~·c, bc­ e•:trac:s from tlnt letter- C,J,Use it had for its object the placmg; of " An _.. A .. ct of PurliaPlCnt that irnposos rrstrictions on the V~'nrlo~~ of s0eds. There irnpoesihlo conditions, as the Bill under '\\as ano-:-her clas ,_~f p0rsons in the com­ notice seeks to do, cannot be said to meu Inunitv \Yho tva;, also interesterl in the 1nea­ oxistiP'; reqnirernent\, -while it plac!C'c;:; in ~ -_'re ~and that \Va~ +he f -rn1C'r•:-tlL- .' \Yho thr ha-r~J.s of an unscrUJ'Ulon.::; person a b.:>ught ·erd for the P'll'pe•2 of phnting or rrwans whe-reby ho rnay ruin another, em,·ing : and Le rmght '·a', mc1dentally, that though he moty be s,·ruvulously honest, that was the only class of seed d~~lt w1th but has no chance of dcfc•ndinf himself in the Bill. under tho conditions of tho Bill.·' IIon. T. A. JoH"~0": The sell ·e''d as Another objection was- well " Anothec· serious objection to the Bill . The ~'I.TTORNEY-GEI\ER~\L: The far­ is tho clas·' of men who arc ex officio n ... cr' ~ busincs:.:l \vas not that of a st: ilcr. but appointed under tho Act. Xot 10 per a purchaser of sPed. The Hon. :H .. Johnson cent of these '•' auld know a mangel see•d assumed the right to spu.k for tlw farm.-rs. from buckwheat. How much less would but it 'vas understood fron1 re-prc,3c-ntatn~es thev be able to discriminate bet,.·cpn the who were accredited b; the farmers, that var.ious sorghtuns and millets. not to that legislation was ui·gr ntly required by litention tho rnanv varieties of 1naize. the Lune.-rs, and t~w srqrce from ;~·h!Ch that Somr.· fe" :cars' ago a depart111ental iaforn1ation came ···as sufficwnt to "-ahsfy bon. members that a very large number ?f official, acting a~ judgG at. a ;chow, a\\ ardod the prize for the boot bag of fnrmcr-; in this conununit~ wantcd tlns legis­ imphcc seed to a bag of amber cane. lat'on. He quite a"lcccl that the am<'nd­ ment wo>uld make thn Bill nugatory. If a while there, W>1S as fine ~ samnk of irnphec "tanding alongside as \Ya~c; ever Bill of that kind was so clra·xn that persons exhibited." could contract thcm,elws out of it, then .all ,,.Jes of c• 'eel would be made on terms con­ It would be utterlY imnus•.ibl<> to g;et tracting the vendors out,ide the BilL Hon. thoroughly qualified men· to act as m­ memb 'S had complain eel al'out th'" difficulty spectors in even town in the State, and in of locnl sccdsmen dealing with imported seed. tho di,charge of their dwies they might in­ That was a m..tttor w'.1ich he "''lS not an flict great harrl•hip on far>ncrs and seeds­ :wthorih on ; but was t lwro any difficulty men. The scedsmen of had aln:>odv in seech;.ncn doing the ~ame as other people protested against the n10a:urc bv circula~-, wlco sold other articles which "·ere pro­ and they h 'cl 'Yaited upon tho SPt'<'Cll,l'Y for hibit.Pd by law from .b"im; adultc•rated? Agriculture. who admitted that in Yictoria FcrtiliseTs were imported wto Quecnslancl and the AcL had been a failure. In NP'' Suuth ( cmld not seed bP t· ·ted the sam0 as fcrh­ VVales there ·w:.;._s .. no nwasnro of th1s kind. li·',. were teot"d. From •.dmt thP Hon. and what ting· the et crls · J that rece>ivod from Mcsors. ~\rthur .Yates and Co., hf' r>ould rrive the ncct~s arv \\Ul'rantv. Fror11 Limited, of Sydnpy-a firm of ''"'cl mer­ ,., hat h.td' been sl'id, it :,. •Juld appear that chants who were well kno\•'n through'lut Ans­ seeds \vcrc altogeth0r diffcr0nt fro:'l any i.ralia, and alm in tho old Lounb-,-, whero oilwr arti le. thev had a branch. That firm w1:ote •;,ith Hon. A. J. THYXNE: l3o thor p.rc. reglnd to tlr Bill- Th<> _\TTORNEY-GEI\ER_\L: If thrrt '''as " We are rather surprised that th< ::;o, it appeared to hin1 that it 1 S a:1 argu­ Bri.,bane seedsmon seem to be showing ment for tllrning clown the Dill on th0 econcl such ap.,thy O\'er the pa sing of the new reading. If the clause was .lmcndi1d at all, .'C<'d regulations. If the.s~ were enforced the amt·ndment in the f.1rm moYetl bv the it will mean that the seed businus will Hon. Mr. Bro-• n "'CJld be th,· 1- .•. ; ob­ he one of tho hcst tn be out of in jectionablE'. All th., ,•me, it intE'ndccl to Queensland, for the Act is most dra,tic, allm' contracting out, and, if that provision making the seed merchant responsible not was put in the Bill, any011t' coul-1 drive a only for the value of the seeds but for coach and four through it. lion. 1'. O'Sull1mn.l 2632 Pure Seeds Bill. [COUNCIL.] Pure Seeds Bill.

Hox. \\'. II. CA~IPBELL: The farmers HoN. C. F. NIELSOK was not in the had not made any application for the Biil, Chamber when the second-reading debate but what they did agitatG for was to get took place, or else he would have had great more raihYays and bett•r IEarkets. Tho:e pleasure in voting against the second read­ were t'w two principal things '' hich affected ing of the Bill. ThG Hon. Mr. Hawtho~n the producers throughout the State. It stated that the consideration of the Bill m seerm.d to him that tho Bill would not reallv Committee was postponed in order to asc~r­ rGsu]t in pure Seeds, but that it was sowin" a tain the ideas of the farmen·- on the ments crop of inspt•ctors. They already had a v~ry of the Bill, but no reply had been r.-;ceived. large army of mspectors all over the State. Hon. members had not had any Circulars If he woke early in the morning, he heard from iarmer;;' associations, from agricultural an altercation going on outside his window societi~' or from horticultural societic·c, and and on going clown to ascertain th0 caus~ for ver~ good re.rsons. The farmers of he found that there wa, a milk inspe-ctor Quc-•,•nsltmd, as a bod0, knew n~thing at all argmng with the milkman. If he ••·ent down ak>ut th•, Bill. A lot of them did not know t· '•ere carefully them, we· e placed before any frrrm:rs' kept out of the front shop 'c:indo-.v, and ye't aFq'>ciation in Queensland, they would reJect undr•r the now regulations of the _\gricul­ it in their o" n intere,ts. He understood tura] Department, tlwy ,,·ere :ll!o,•--cd tD' coma the Attorncv-General to .qav that the Bill m by the l:ack v.ay. In fact, they h~d in­ only refern.J to agricultur;,l seed, but it spectors everywhere. If he went out to referred to all classr·s of seed. If a man his friend's shtion, he found two uninvi'erl s--·:Jt down to a s8edsman for a shillin <.'s worth guests, one of them tamperin;:r with the of lettuce , -,ed or flower seed for his g·arden, artosnn v.-atrr to sec if it war'- possible to he had to o-et a guarantee from the seeds­ reduc," the f!o\v, ar ,-I the other corr1plainin~'( m~n. He took an interest in horticultur.e, that there v:as not enough \Yc,:er to give himself, and spent a good deal of money m the -hearers a shower bath. He· thought ·thr, oceds · and he bought not only in Brisbane farmm , were pretty well a bl.e to !JrDt•cct v.nd 's_vdney but alec in New York at tht,:_ruelvPs, and nc'1e of then1 \Vcre likelv times, and he alw.ays dealt with the most to, be duped by having inf0rior seeds pal nc~l reputable people-with the people who ga' c off on t!wn1. 1-Ie had krro'\'11, however, of a the most satisfaction; and so did every farmer Ill New 7.ealand who wished to sov n. other man, whether he bought garden seed b1g toh~cco crop, anrl he purc-hased a [o' of or farm seed. seed,_ ~nd the ( vnsequence \Va., that the '" ho:·i.~ of his farm "'as cov0red with a weed ,,-h;ch Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORX: Are you satis­ It v.:c; almo't impossible to eradicate. He fiDd to take Now York seoo without a thou. ht It as rather a pity to m"kc the guarantee? a.m<>ndmcnt .at that time, as he felt inclined HoK. C. F. NIBLSON: Yes. He got to delete the clause altogether. seed from firms which had a high reputa­ tion. A farmer in Kew South Wales made HoN. M. JENSE::'-J: '!'he argument of the a speciality of paspalum seed, and people Hon. ;\1r. Campbell against inspectors rcallv got seed from him because he amounted to an argument against all thP [ 4.30 p.m. J had the best name in that line. beneficial thif'f l<'gislation that had been Then them were farmers from passed for the last fifteen years. The Minister whom people got lucerne seed. without going m charge of the Bill had informed them that to .any seed merchant. The Bill would make the farmer o wanted the Bill and thG Han the vendor of seeds responsible for thmgs Mr. Johnson said they did' not want th~ that he did not know anything about. A !3Ill. He (Mr. Jensen) was in doubt about rt,. but,. at the same time. he would be- sur­ man miiThL have the best varieh of iron­ pnsed. If any farmer, k!'owing the effect of hark pu;pkins, and he might save several the Bill, really wanted It. It was s:-cid that bushels of seed and sell it to a seed mer­ i ~e farmer was very different from the or­ chant in Brisbane. HD would have to give di_nar} YPndor. The farmer certainly came the seed merchant a warranty, according to wrthin the definition of vendor, and, as a the Bi!I, and yet his seecl might ha\·e been vendor. he would have to give a guarantf•-o inoculut0d, with the result that the next that all the se0~ he sold did not conb,in a crop woul-d not be ironbark pumpkins at all. · greater proportiOn of foreign ingredients The ·:lrne thing might -happen v.-ith melons than was prescnbed. It might be said that and all seeds G: that cbs". Then, there were the amm!nt _of foreign matter that ,,·auld be c0rtain seeds that reverted to type. He \',as al!owor! m the ~eed would be :oo great as to certain tho Bill had not been asked for by work no hardship. If that ''as so. what use thG farmers. It had been asked for by would thP Bill be ? It would not bo a Pure people who pre.tended to :·eprether .Hox. G. W. GRAY: In the rreat drouvht thP', were really in earnest in rPgard to the of 1902 tho Govprnment imported seed wlwat BilL Since the second re:•di•1g- !tad be?n from Manitoba, and vt"ry good rcst.Its \VCrc passed he had been ende'l' 'JUring to find obtainNl from it. Thn·e was nothing to pre­ out who had sngg0sted thn lrgi;-jL,tion. and vent the Government from taking: this matt<'r he could only fmd ono .,.,gg<· .ci•m, and that in ham! and h imposinl' snch heavy fines nnd penalties. Tf last bvo or thre~-"' vears in certain meorings t.hc Bill h:d not come before the Cr tmcil wi"h­ of a certain a&,ociation. and that it had in four or five days of the close of th0 session, been asked for time after time for thG last he "oulcl haY<' suvg-<'stc d that it should be' three years. That "as the only te,timony refern~d to a Select Committe<' to takp eYideP<;c• there was of tlw carne't dccire of the farm­ and asc< rtain whethc'r Jhe farmers had rra!lv ing cornn1unity for H rncasure of t.hat kind, requested to be protectnd against the '< cndoi;s and having members in the Council ,,ho were of seed. Tlw cvidcncc so f~r was tha!· tho more or ]( ' acquainted with the views and farmers had not made this r0quc·,,t. but that aims of the farmers ,., ho told thr n the ver~ there was a partv of some twentv-two men,bcrs oppoeito. how were they to know what to in another place \\"ho wanted such a measure do 1 That had boon his difficulty all the \Yay introduced to show· their constitu0nts how through in rp;:urd to that matter. During lion. F. T. Brentnall.] 2634 Pure Seeds Bill. [COUNCIL.] Pure SEeds Bill.

the second-r£ading debate on the measure, Paragraph 2 of the Victorian Act read in this those who urged it altogether numbered way- about nine gentlemen. No demonstration " Such ~Jtatement in any inYoicP, agree­ had been made before this Parliament that ment, f'ircular, or adYertiserrHmt a:j afore­ the farmers were demanding the Bill. If said, shall, notwithstandiwr any agree­ they had had such a demonstration, it would rnent to the contrary. constitute a war­ be their duty to comply ";th the reqtw't of ranh l.y the vendor· that such oeeds are the fanneL·.; but when they were told that for plantinG or .._:ovvin~r. and a1 ·=: of the 'h,, farmers were not wantir!g it the difficult:c kind- or ki~_ds so spl, ·ifi.f:d, and contain was to knm" how to vote on " , u0 lion like no gr<'atcr proport:on or anwunt of that. The Hm;. ::\Ir. J ohnc )n \Y;uld pardon foreign ingredients than is prc•cribed." him when he su£ gest<>d that h 0 thought the hon. :;cntln1nan rnadL a nlif.take in one of the There were no ,,c~ch worde in th;, Victorian quotation he made at the c'os<' of his speech. Act as "Are tr"e to type · and dres·-ed, The hon. g:·nEunan, no douLt, had rccei'1 ed cleanL·-1. and gr'lcled, and h-,,·, no: lo~t their t\,·o different circu:ars the ,'a me as other po\vor of g0rrnination by being storrd in any 1 ta~1k or other r~ceptacle." Trl8 in·~"rtion of hon. rncrnbl'rs, ono of then1 being D1 l extract frorn a letter fru'n . \rthur Yates a.nd Co. those words i11 the g u:1 ran tee by the seeds­ Ulan madL a trcm..!ndous alb~raLo~l. It ,.,·as Liii the kind adver­ from the letter of Arthur Yates and Co. ti,ed for s,.k, and that thev did rot contc:in The lett{ r which "as signed bv tho s0eds­ a greater p1 ~)portion or alnount of f-oreign in ·_J."rcdier:.ts 1 l,1an £:--z. prC"'-:..:tibc~t But 1.vhen rnen of Brisbme sho\;·cd that tho' pLoplr here 1 were iu downri )1t P~"trnest on Lho subjo-:t, as they· carne to nlako the .:.c.et · -11 give a they stated that if the Dill was pa."ed it wancb ·vu·o tn:" to type, would rLean th tt thcv wonlrl haYe to close tht;y wCre askrng toJ n1uch. Th0 ]Jon_ l\1r. their ·•tnrc · He "·ai:tted hon. mcnbers to Nicl on pointt·d out v hat would take an irnpartial view of the .. ituation, '\ ith­ [5 p.m.] hapj,en 'n connectiop with a field out regard to pa 1:ty politics or anything of of pun1ptins or :) field of 1naizo that sort~to f'l_'riou~lv considb· "\Yhat \vou]d .;nd an :ermiua­ Mr. Brontnall for drawing attention to the tim:." Th0 insertion of those words altered OYerdght he~ had 111_ade in reading a rircular the whole tone of the gum· ant'''' r ,quir0d hy from the <..e' .amongst other worcle he1d l:een inserted. Portion of farmers in Queens'and, ancl he knew that the claus" had b"on inserted aftct· the Bill scores of thc·'L were seller.; of shed, A wa intrvduced in anotlwr place. As he grc1t man_\ of them sent their seed to the 1Mr. 'Thyr.no) had found the sc-_;tions of the local storekeqwrs, and if those seeds wNe Victorian Act were the same as some of the fonYardcd to Brisbane for sale it would be r 1a.u-.. es in this Bill, he thought it was only a von great hardshin if an ins>1ector had right that he ohould mention whne they power, jf he found anY foreign. matter in aS: l'~ed, and \"~",'her,• they disagrc':'d. 11 e drew the seed, to order that' they should bP con­ a .. tention to the grpat ef;'<>ct that that altera­ fisc;- ted. Tht' amendment \Vas a •, ery good tion of thP Yictorian Act might have. He one, but he was ''llT,\' it did not go far v·as not avercr, to making lc:;islation for pro­ enough. He did not think it would med the vicling the farmer ·cith pure se. rb but he casP.. For instance, if a fanner sold seed to \'•

Ho was rather influenced by tho informatimi The best thing- to do would be to omit clause given by the Hon. :\lr. Thynr,e, and h.J 5 altogether, and let the Bill stand for what what was c,bted by the ron. :.Vlr. Xiolson, it \Vas worth aftenv.:trds. a gentleman \Vho rv...-~1....: from an agricultu1 ,J dif'ri ,t. lio,T:c\ .!r, be ~:ras thoroughly ii1 favour of tho Bill, subject, of cour'

CONTE-:'TT.::l, 5. Hox. B. J. ~TE\ ENS: It , .LS eaicl th t the farmers we're in L Your of the Bi11, but Hon . ..._\. H. Barlow Han. B. Fah } they did ~Cot knm\ that a B;II of that ki••l F. T. Brentnall T. O':.:'ullivan wa' going to l:o DrOUfbt in. \VhaJ· the W. H. Campbdl fanners thou7ht the:- were go:llg to ~ et \\a· Teller: Hon. F. T. Brentnall. a Bill th~t wo·1ld prot<>rt tholll agaimc tlw eeed-ollers, but this Biil purported to pro­ "S OT-00NTENTS, 17. tect the c eed,.m•n against t!1e fnrmers them­ Hon. T. C BPirn(' Han. :\I. .Ten <'n sches. He w;, sure th1t tho fan"crs chl 1-r. V. Bro'\vn T ..... \. .lrhnson A. .T. Carter P. .T. L• .1hy Lot anti•·irate th: i. ,J. Cmvlishaw C. F. Mark· Hox. T. M. HALL did not want to give A. Gib•:.on {. F. :'ie1·~on .a ·silent vote. He had interested himself G. W. Gm) ~,- .•r~t';ft~~~~s in the matter of getting the views of ~: M: :lJ.~~\ \.. T. Thynn• farmers generally in reference to the Dill .\.G. C. Hawthorn no•v before them. He had no hesitation in Telle:·: Hon. 'l'. iii. Hall. saying that the Council and the Assembly Rc,olved in the negative. we1e being used by certain individuals for the purpose of letting off fireworks. The Qu.-stion~That tho words propvfed to be· Bill, although ostensibty said to be doing insc,ted (Jfr. Browr,·s amrndment) bP so in­ something -for the benefit of the farmer, scr'Dd~put and passed. would reallc· prove to l,e his greato ,t cursp br au-,e it \\'Ou!d throw into the hands of monopolist•- th,, 'upplying of seeds under Question~ That clause 5, as amended, conditione where there would be none of the stand part of tho Bill~put; and the Com- n''-trictions which they were seeking to place mittoe divided:~ on the community in Quoenslan<.i. It was all vor. well to sav that the Bill would affect CJNTEXTE') 4. all "seeds suppli~d here and the per··ons who Hon. ,\. H. Barlow Ron. P .•T. Leahy sold the seeds. They ,,·ore there to see that B. FahPy ., T. O'.Sul1ivan legislation was going to benefit the majority :Peller: Hon. P ..T. Leahy. rathe.r than the minority. He had no hf',ita­ tion in saying that the farmm would not be ~OT-CONTENTS, 1~. h0nefitod one ningle pennyworth b~' the carry­ Hon. T. C. Bc•irne Hon. F. H. Hart ing of this measure. He entered his pro­ W. Y. Brown A. G. 0. Hawthorn te'-t agJinst measures of the kind being W. H. Oampbl'll 'If. .Ten7PU brought before tho Council without g;iving A. J. Carter T. A ..Tolmson them sufficient tim<' to considc•r them. Bills .T. Cow-Iishav, C. F. J.Iark::. t. A. lJavPy C. F. XiP~~vn c,F that nature should be introduced earlier A. Gibson \Y. F,t(i1hen~ in the session. so that those who were G. \V. Gray E . .T. ~tpvens affected by the~ would haw an opportunity T. }f. HaJl ., ~L .T. Thynnr• of expre,sing their opinion. InstPad of that, Teller: Hon .•\. J. Carter. they had tho Bill brought before the House just at the last stage of the proceedings, Resolved in the negative. when, a' a rule, they had many "Fiaughtered On rlausP 6--" So, ds wid in 1 noels to innocents." The House that introduced tnD have yea.;:· of gro,ring rnarked "- measure should tako the responsibility of introducing it again in something liku ft. Hox ..\. H. BARLO\Y: Hon. membe_rs proper shape. The effect that the Bill w-as must not attribute his going 01~ with the B1ll -:roing to have h~d not entemd into the Dal­ to ob.ved that th,e· cuiations of the farmers at all. He sug­ Bill was askc ,J for by the fa"mc and tt g-e:-~ted that they should emasculate the Bi11 •vas supported in another place by t_he re­ ,"tnd make it usele'''· Then, at some future pre.,cntative'. ol the farmer·.,,. He chd n?t time, when they had further information knov, .,-hat would happen when tho B11I from cho source .affec+ed, they could de<1l went back to tho ,\,,cmbly. That Houso with another measure. He was deadly in might sug-sest som8thing; in the place of e'lrnest in protecting the interests of the clause 5: but it was his duty to carry on tho farmers. He '""s a!wJ.ys in favour of pro­ Bill to the end. He "onld not divide the tcctil ,, the settlers in the communit~, but Commidee any more than he could h<'lp, or he was sati~fied that thio Bill w:.s not in the pd any fat.iguo upol! hon. members who had interc>ts of the farmer. The<· had no evi­ so oft on ,ssisted hnn b~, a ttendmg there, dence from the farmer that he w~" asking bnt to the end of thB Bill he must go for this Bill. It was only introduced by ,som•chm< or other. those who had been working on the feelings of the fartner, and who 1.vished to g-ain a HaN. \Y. V. BRO\Y:::--J: The dauso pro­ littlP cheap popularitY. The Government vided that tho v~·1dors of ,."' ds, when sold had failed to ]}]ace beforo them anv ovidenco in mack-up pands·. must legibh- m~rk u~on of the opemtions of the Act in V{ct-oria. It the oufsiclt- of each parcel the yf'ar m wh1_ch would be inJ_eresting to know how the legis­ ,,uch seeds wero p·own. It would b_c qmte lation there affected the farmers of Victoria. imp0'sibl" for -eedsmen to comply wtth that Han. W. V. Brown.] :2636 Brisbane [COUNCIL.] Tramways Bill.

condition with resnect to seeds grown out­ exclusive right to use the tramwa:y:, subject to side the State. He therefore moved the in­ the conditions of tho Act. I w1sh to draw sertion in line 46, after the word "seeds," attention specially to sectio!l 84 of the Tram­ -of the words "grown in Queensland." If "avs Act of 1882, because 1t was under that the locally grown seed had to be marked in section that the difficulty arose which caused that way, such marking would constitute a deadlock between the Government and the some sort of guarantee, and naturally people company when Orders in Council were ap­ would prefer to purchase from vendors of plied for, and it is really the terms of !hat locally-grown seeds, so that it would prob­ section which render necessary the legtsla­ ably creat€' an industry in Queensland whrch tion which I am now submitting for the might become valuable. consideration of the Council. The section Hon. A. H. BARLOW: I am prepared to provides- .accept the .amendment for the reason that " (1) _\t any time after the expi!atiun it may create a local industry. of fourteen years after the completiOn of Amendment agreed to. a tramwaY constructed under the pro­ Clause 6, as amended, put and pa,>ed. vis;on" of 'this Act, the council may pur­ cha·e the tramwac \vith its appurten­ Clames 7 to 18, both inclusive, put and ,,nces, wbject to any mortgage existi~g negatived. thereon on giving to tho company stx HoN. A. H. BARLOW: Out of cunsidera· n1onths_,' notice in -writing of their in­ tion to hon. members h,, had spared them the t{Hltion to do so. trouble of dividing on the clauses which " (2) The amount of purchase money had been negatived, but the Bill was going shall be ,uch amount as may be agreed back to the Assembly. What the Assembly upon between the council and the com­ would sa,.· to it he did not know. He pany; or, if the parties cal!not ~gree, moveJ th[tt the Chairman leave the chair, such amount shall be ascertamed 111 the and report the Bill to the Council with manner provided bv the Public \Yorks amd for in section 84 would overlap 20th tramway mentioned in th·e application. The Septs that were like)y ,and the constructing authority then has to arise in the eyent of the Orders m [Han. W. V. Brown. Brisbane [11 NovEMBER.] Tramways Bill. 2637

Council being insued in the ordinary form, so the local authorities may have, are not to that the Orders in Council wBre then issued be affecte\f by the agreement. It seems to. with a proviso that the time of compulsory me that the agreement is a very excellent purchase would not be extended beyond 20th one for the public and for the Government, September, 1920. The company declined to and it holds out sufficient inducement to tba accept Orders in Council in that form, and Tramways Company to undertake these ex­ a dead1ock occurred. The company took up tensions. I might just shortly refer to tha the posipion that they were not prepared to operative part of the agreement. The construct these extensions on a seven years' terms ar<:J very short, indeed. They are set franchise. Negotiations were then entered out in paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 4, paragraph into between the Government and the com­ 5 referring only to the ratification. Para­ pany, and the points in dispute were as graph 1 binds the company to apply for the follows :-The company wanted: Firstly, Order in Council for the Ipswich road ex­ that there should be unrestricted operation tension, and to proceed with all reasonable of section 84 of the Tramways Act of 1882 despatch with the construction of the o~her in their favour; secondly, they claimed the extensions. Tho second paragraph provides­ right of compensation on the basis of cost that the power of compulsory purchase is of construction and goodwill, and thev to be exercised as if the tramways were one. wished to have that right admitted in the The third paragraph provides thme time, but thev fin '11lv rc,ulted IJlU2h,we." The paragraph further sets out in the agreement which the" Cotm,;il is now that the ba' is upon which the purchase money asked to- validate in the Bill submitted for has to be ascertained is not affected. It seems their consideration. I might point out that to me that th0 Government, in the agreement, the terms of this ag,"eement show that the two have qocured all thev could rc:.sC'"'lCJbly ask, points to which the Government att,1ch such and the company on their part have procured great importance have been secured-that is, the right to have the tram\\ ays taken tho company undertake to proceed with the over as a whole. I do not think there four extensions which ,\·ere the subject of is any other information I can give hon. Orders in Council and aho with one members at this stage. I beg to move that additional extension. The other point which the Bill be now read a second time. the Government were anxious to secure was that tho time for exercising the right of Hm-L F. T. BRENTNALL: I do not compulsory purchase should not be extended think this Bill ought to pass its second read­ beyond the 20th September, 1920. That ing without a few words. I have had a good point also has been conceded in the agree­ many v:ord< to say about the subject on ment. Tho company secures the right to" previous occasions. Probably the general have the tramways taken over ao a whole. feeling is that now that the Government That concr,sion may be objected to by some and the manager of the Tramwavs Company people, but it seems to me to be ·a ver;y ]rave como to a mutual undersfanding, the· rn spent in preparation of particular area. It seemed to the Government the four or five extensions that were to be that it was a reasonable concession to aok for, made in th0 nurchasing of posts which have· as the company can hardly be expect0d to go bc·"'n erected,-and in purchasing rails which on building thr,se extensions with a possi­ have been lying alongside the different routoo bility -that theY might be left on their hands for all that period, and altogether thrs has and the rest of the ,extensions taken over. been a serious loss to the Tra:nv.ays Com­ The only risk there was in granting the pany in intPrest on monev expended. companY's reque<,t that the tramways should vYhether thev have lo,t very much 111 the be bken over as a whole was that it might profits of "_;rking the Jines I do not know, incn•1se their right of compensation for Co(:ause they a.re not g~ing to charge higher goodwill. That contingency has been earP­ rates on these extensrons than they ar'c fully guarded ag.'inst in the agree'Tlent, and charging on the shorter rout,es now. That it is expccssly stated that the right of com­ has been made pcrfcr"y clea1. In one drroc;­ pem ation is not to be affected by this agree­ tion I shall be benefited by a slight exten­ ment. \Vhile I do not acknowledge that the sion of 1 mile. and the fare is to be exactly company are entitled to compemation on ih;• S'!me as it is at the present time, al­ thouch the distance is a mile longer. I the basis of goodwill, their rights, whatever think that that also applies to the other th,ey may be, are not affected b' the

That was one point which I referred to be­ po~ition ::s they are at the prc~~ent tirne, are fore. The main thing I wish to sr.eak about 6 ctting nothing out of it. However, I pro now is to expn-' .. .3 111y re,sret tl:at it has pose at a later stage, when this Bill gets taken all tht .• e months for the Government iLco {_;o'·nmittef', to sub1nit an a1nendment to •·28 a way out of the difficulty. I think which will endeavour to put all the other that that Jifficulty might have been got over local authoriti C'S on a similar footing to much earlier, so thett thou.-ando of pcopL tho,;c mentioned in this Bill. ,Perhaps a 'vho have hecn sp.",;; 11ly in::onYcmienced on little hietorv of the difhculties the local these proposed traLl rout· would have been authorities ha \'U had to contend with in the ·,nved inconv~nience. Hov,:evcr, l supr '-""-'e last few vears may enlighten members on th1t ev~rybody >.·.ill ho ;;rateiul now that th' the po', itiOn. Son1e tin1e ago, a conference exH..m~".ous are go in."' to Lc made. TherC: \Vas h2ld bv the local n.uthoritics in the have been son1o very strong .app als made IlH':ropolit1n" aroa who V\Tere concerned in to pu'> lie opinion and pub[; h:ntirncnt \\i-Lh tho tram;', u , ger.,,nlly. That conference re­ regard to thcso l! ·~ay&, and HlOt...j:.T the bla.~rw presented :om·teen local authorities, a11d, hao bee a put on • he shouldd·s v·Lich I thmk .:_~Her vel.;- considerable diL{. ..1 ,.sion and nulner­ arc not tlHJ IL JSt re -p011Cible for it. In o·rs mecciwrs, th<" decided it would be ad­ spe-cking un tho Adchc, < in Heply I sai·! .-:s.1blc. se- i, g that tk:y were unabln at that the mc.Ldgcr of the Tnm .ays Com­ tho ime to gp:- any exteP.swns out of the fH!ly was pr~parcd to e, o on im.,.cdiately, Bri:~1.1::1e Tra __ nva.•~s Con1pan~'T, to .Pndeavour as b -, had t'w m 1teri ·l the rc, a- d he wa_ to han a ,c _, ni' -ion appointed, which waul? n ady to lay (·to-,- n the raiLs. 1£ th-e•·.0 ex­ t-tke 'lw pjaco ol the fourteen loc;l anthon­ tcn.;ions had been caHied out befon•, v.e tics i:1 co.cnoction >vith the tramways. I am should L.1yo bee1... enjoJ ing n1uch LJ.sicr Ilc·t for one moment blaming the Brisbane transit for some r o'- ,- iJerabk time past thun Tcamway Com1Jany or their managpr. \Ve '\C have Leon. 'l'ho clifficultv "h.;ulcl havi know that the Lrisban hich E,renH:d to pany, and I have done a good deal of busi­ surround thP qu<"·tiou. lio•-cever, the people ncH with him. I always found him a gentle­ livi..1g ulong· the routc.J where the trarnlines man who ha. received us with great courtesy, urc o lie ccmtractocl will be very grateful but unfortunatelv for us, we have not been that this a;;1•-emcnt La-. been coLe to. Then, abl~ to get anything out of him. I will there are the other proposed euensions. adi,rit that he is one of the most astute men 'flwy are iwportant extensionP, .cr.cl they will in bu.,incss that I have eYer come across. add to the COllYenienc"> of the people in the He ha·. a g-reat knowledge of the tramway sul;urb;., oi Bri::. .ane. I havf no financial businr ss. \Ye. found, a' a body, that we intl·~T-,'.J whatevol' in the Trarnways C•·rn• could get nothing out of him, and we oame pany, and I speak cEsintercotedly on the to the concbsion that the be,t plan would -,,hol-· -.1 1·jeci I hope that ,·.·e shall have be t'l appoint a commi:~ion to represent the still fartlwr extft has been come to between the Pn mier, the practically in the cold. These four local local 3uthoritieF, and the Tramway' Com­ authorities then kept on the conference pany, on a basi:, equib ble to all concerned. thembelves. They were the city of Bri:.. bane, the citv of South Brisbane, the town of ~o ri

progranune for construction as early as upon the ccmmission as being a V<'l'Y g9od practicable the following additional ex­ thing. He -~id he would br happy to brmg tension", .,l!bj ect to the suburban local in thr Bill and laY it on the table of the authorities relieving the company of road House this ses,ion, and probablr go on with 1naintenanc'~· '' it next session. H<' said that it was a good draw attention to that very significant inti­ sugr<''tion that a commission should be mation about th" local authorities relieving appointed. and ho wa·o hopeful that eatls­ tho company of road maintenance. 1\!Ir. factory arrengunonts would be made, and Badger then referred to the following local that the propoud extensions would be pro· authorities in \vho:.~e arL'as extensions \vould c; edcd with without delay. He intimated b,, carried out, namely :- th Jt it wonld not be pr.<··ibie to proceed with "City of Brisbane, city of South Bris­ the Bill bcvond the first reading this session, b,me, , cities of Brisbane but it \Yotdd l i" on the tab~e and h ready and South Brisbane and shirP of Bal­ to bo prcceedod with next '·C'·bion. He also moral, town of Ithaca again, city of intimated that there was ,;-ill so::ne difti,:ulty South Brisbane, city of BrieL;.n,· .md b h' ·en hi·_1self a;,d the comn.cnv on another town of ·windsor." cues ion. Tho Attornov-Gcner;tl has told ,;., that negotiations wei:o then p-r,ding for In each ca,A he mentioned the particular four r~ ··~tQn, .~.,-:;, for •,Yhir:h Ordors in Council tramway whwh would be carried in those t.·d l-cen ac ked for by the c•>mpan:l". The an'~'· He s..tid that th.· ,o extensions \vould GoYcrnnH'·nt wE'rO pr,..parod to ;rnnt the be made, and that tho local anthorities con­ Orckr i,-, C'onncil on condition that the BX· cerned ·.ho,dd relieve the Tram\Va"':~S Coln­ tPnsions -1.10uU. be liable to be taken over pan~· of road mainten;,nco. T"hat is an in September, 1920, the datE' at hich it unfair position to put thon1 in, because it is haR Jhvays br F!1 consid.-r._d the tranTways giving preference to sotne local authorities mav b-~ t:,k. n o-·<>r bv thr lo, al P'Jthoritics. over oth""rR, '' hon all ure equally d0"!erving ThO cornrw.nv ~,n-'re i10t ,·JJreeable to that. of extensions. Those local authorities ho 'l'h":<" ,. Jnt--"d t Lc Ordm ~ in Council granted ere .. nlled upon to urry out road mainton­ ~,, iihout an•, quaJific1tion, ._LS in I)reViOUS an~o the:nselves \Vant ext0nsions \vhieh are cafos, and thPrP as reall: an in1passe. The ju"t a\ ncoec<,,r,· :<· the other places. After Prc•mer intimatPd that he would make no that we "aitcd on the Premi0r with our other conct'ssion to the company. The three Bill, and the four imnortant local autho­ or fOur Joc·,,J anthoritie"l conc~rned in these I it.ios, rcprbenti' g 90 i•er cent. of the oar additional Ordm·s in Council "aited on the mileage for Bribbane and suburbs, asked the Premier, a'1d he said- Premier to bring in a Bill providing for the appointment of a commis· ion .and to do cer­ " If the local authorities ourrcndered tain other things. The important section of all their interests under Act of Parlia­ that Bill relates to the special powers of the n>ent which they -are now moving, it conunie:::':r what a programme restr powerful lever by means of which thev might four of the more W8althy people of the" have brought tlw company to ;,greo to" reamn­ district who are willing to do that in or~er able terms. If the Governm-'nt have altered that thev may have some means of gettmg that section in this direction, they should to the trams. Even then, they are from have altered it to the ad\ ant age of th" local twentY minutes to half an hour from the authoriti"' b;c defining " goodwill." The tramline. I know that Ooorparoo was in Attorney-General has told us that one uf the same position, but the people there ar<> the questions the Tramways Company waRteu to get their extensions. settled was the definition of " goodwill," to Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: \Ve went the right show what· tlw local authorities would have way to get them. You did not. to pay for the goodwill. That is a disputed HoN. A. G. C'. HAWTHOR"': I do 11ot point, and certainly it should have been made k, oY, what the ri6ht way is. Evidently the clear what the exact position is. In the CJorparoo people got what they wan~e~! m absence of such a definition, the whole quco­ some way or other. If we h ,d had 1 "!Yhmster tion of what will have to be naid to th; of the C'ro\-':n in our district, we might have company will have to be rderred to the got our n:tensions, but we haY? not ~~ot that Privy Council. The local authorities con­ £"Ood fo, tune at the prese?t tmw. I repre­ cerned have the opinion of the late Mr. sent th ' local authontws m whose cueas 90 "Edwyn Lilley and ::\1r. Stumm, who sav that prr cent. of the tramway mileage is situat?d, there is no goodwill. They are backed up by and I ask hon. members to assis\ in placmg the decision of tho Privy Council in two us on a proper footing. cases-Edinburgh Town Council case, and th0 London County Council c;,se. Since then The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in reply, said: I expected more reasonable criticism there have been Privv Council decisions in from the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn than we have two Australasian case~-tho Hamilton Town got on a. subject likP this '~ ith which h< is Council-that is a New Zealand case-and familiar and one ,,ith whiCh a legal man the Perth Town Council case in \Vestern might b~ expected to have a better acquain­ Australia-in which cases the question of tance than other people who are not accus­ goodwill was decided in favour of the tram­ tomeu to construe Acts of Parliament" ThP way companies, so that the question is by hon. member nid that the Government should no mf'ans settled, and, until we have a have held out in the negotiations, and the Privy Council decision, or until the Govern­ comnany would have given way. I need ment decide what the "goodwill " is, we l:~rdh- point out that that is a ridiculous do not know exactlv where we stand. I position to take up. If !he Govern.ment had contend that the Government should not s1.id thev wanted certam terms and they have altered the decision of the local authori­ would not dcpai't from those terms, ther<> ties in the one instance without altering it in would have been no need for any negotia­ the other. We du not want any preference. tions. There were certain things wanted by \Ve want to be on the same footing as we the company, and certain other things "ar;ted were at the time the negotiations were en­ by the GO\·ernment, and tlw representatn-cs tered upon, and we are quite willing to take of the Government and the company met. as our stand on the Act as it is at present. We reasonable men and tried to find some solutiOn think that, as the interests of the bulk of of the points in dispute betw0en them. For­ the local authorities have been disregarded tunately, we have bePn able to do that; but by this Bill we are entitled to ha;-e certain tl1n Han. Mr. Hawthorn blamr-; the Govern- other extensions included, and I intend ment for not holding ont, and moving an amendment to that effect in [7.30 p.m"] drawing a hard-~nd_-fast line and Committee. \Ve consider that the most im­ saying, " \V e ms1st en these portant of the extensions that were out­ terms." On the other hand, we have the Han. lined by the manager of the Tra'Tiways Com­ Mr. Brentnall blaming the Governmmt for pany some time ago should be included. If holding out as Jon,- as the:;' did. Seeing that the Bill providing for the appointment of a the Government have been blamed by the rommission had been passed this SC\ssion, or two hon. members for opposite reason,, th<> if this Bill had been dnferred until next probabilities are that thC' Gonwnmcnt took "''ssion. as the other Bill was, that commis­ the right course. The. Hon .. Mr. Hawthorn sion. when appoint<>d, would have been in a objected to th,o concesswn bcmg made to the 'Josition to ask the Government to give them T;r'iFbanP Tramways Company compelling the rHon. A. G. n Tla'lflthorn" [11 No-vEMBER.] Tramways Bill. 2641 local authorities to take over the tramways as despatch, the Goyernment of Queensland a whole. As I pointed out when nJov·ing the will either themselves or by some duly serond reading, this i::; a Yerv reasonable con­ constituted authority forthwith construct cession, both in tho interest; of the Tramways the said extensions, and provide for the (:ompan;, and in the interests of the local running thereon of the necessary car.3.') authorities themsol ves. I pointed out on the second reading that that was a risk that That was a reasona blc thing to ask. It should be guarded against, and it is caref u!Jy s'mp:y pro'cided that further a ~reements guarded against in th<' agreement. The might b·' mach·, and it wac> asking that those Tramways Company's solicitor.;; agreed to the spr·.:ial agreements should have priority. s j pulation going in that the agreement was Those f'xtonsions had been practically pro­ not to affect tho question of compensution iu mised by the manager of the Brisbane any way, so that I do not follovc the han. Tram,ay•. Co·npany, and were outlined by nwmber when he ,,uge;csts that the question of him some time ago wlwn he attended a compensation will be altered by this agrc·c­ deputation of the local authorities concerned. ment. He <·:1Vs that in 1920 the lool authori­ The .am('ndment \Vas n1ost necc:.-s~ry. as the ~i~-? will not' know what tho} haYO .to pay. extensions were nccec;-:;;ary to complete the fins agrr-mnont doE\3 not make an"":7 L.Iffcrenco systmn, and to give outsid(·· di,,tricts a rncan& in that resp c They do not know what thc,y of tra; 'it to the city. h LYe to pay, and thc·y w1ll not know what th0.\ haYo to pay, whctht~r we make this Tho ATTORKEY-GEKEHAL soid ho could ag1:cemont or _not. Tho company's E·Jlieitore not. accept the amcndr.;ent, as, to his mind, it clam1 om• bas1s of compensation and the Go­ brirtled with objections. Fir ot of all. it took yernment chim another, :md it v.i!l h.we tc' all discrotiou from the por.. mt who nught bo t-,o to sr·m.c court to settle the compensation rospon~ible fO'' tho~u extm1~io: ·, as to the but the compccution will be exact]\ the sam~ order in wh'ch the extensiorn s!JOdld he ., < it Yeas before the a~reenwut. " The hon. r:1ade and cs to the routu- It did not cast member alsc claimed that tlw Government t :;e alligation e'cpressly on t!;., c')111JAny of should have been pee pared to {'Oil' truct these building- tho ext.··~·· lons, but it .-..J.ia tht ex­ h'amlin· If they did that, thev would have t mior;s would han' priority. If that meant to iak~ sLt•ps to ensure the \Y~rking o~ the· ,.nythin;r, it n1eant that the c•lll11-·;1Dy could PXt<'nsion.s "hThPn the_~.· \vcre cunstrnctPd, and not build any other "xt< '!~ion until it had bnilt thP e"'de.nsions S' ,L out in that ,;hEJule. I am sure hon. HH mbf'ts v. ill ,-.grcc \\ ith mo that it is far 1-: ·ttcr to carne to an an1icablD It W0'1Id not cause a1. v ( "b usic11 to be L..1ilt, arrangement with the• comp ~.ny to r ·mstlut '· t ut it Ini:..{ht prevent"' other extensions frorn the cxt<:-·nsions :::~nd y\-orh: then1. Fortunat0lv b0in' built. It war not ·•. n enabliw" clause th;\t agrhml~~lt \\ :JS arrived at, and I an1 qnit'::, at all; it \Hts a preventive claus'; ·and he sure 0\'0l'ythmg Wlll b0 done beft••l' in that war, would sug;"est tD the han. member that that ~.\as noL the wa·"'" to r-et exteLsions. rl,he pro­ and thr·e w1ll be an absolute ··n-in•'8 of Gn­ vernme:lt fund ... of something like £50,0~0 viso contained in th() amcndnlC'nt read- c1' £60.000. I \Vlll deal w1th the han. mc•n• " If tho company ·.-hall not within bor's amendment wh(:n it is ITIOY·-d in C:-,nl­ t wclvo months from the pas,ing- of this mittce. Act have applied for Orders in Council to Quection-That the Bill Lc now read a. authorise the construction, in accordance b2Cond time-put and pabed. with tho provisions of the Tramwavs Acts, 1882-1890, of said extensions, the Govern· CO.Ili\IITTLE. ment of Quc road. mforn..c·hon, wluch pPrhaps the ho.L member " And if the company shall not within d ll'>t at the. re'p.!c't of tL e< mpany. -,;·ith th2 provr~ion:-:i of the Trarn\vays lho comp;;ny d1d not want th. t uauso at Acts, 18-2-18~0, of th said cxtcn::CJn·, a1:d all. The ay for how long. the amendment. If he did, he (::\ir. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: You just wanted O'Sullivan) must oppose it to the best of his to make cure that they would get interest on <1bility. their money? llo>~. A. G. C. I-I A WTHORN said he would HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: Yes. 'l'he) just like the Attorney-General to point out wll'Jrc wanted to vere both m­ mentwned m clause 4, he had never sug­ clucled in the Bill. Tho extensions advo­ gested an:· cuch thiw,. It would be an im­ cated by the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn had ?een proper thing- to give priority in the Bill to contemplated before, and other cxtenswns, any particular extension, when they did not too. He had had cenversations with. Mr. know what circumstances might exist in Dadger, and knew that he had liberal 1doas twelve months or two years, when the time about ('xtonsions. vVhether tho agreement came for the extensions to be made. was to :Mr. Badger's satisfaction, and whether he would recommend the extensions he had liON. G. \V. GRAY said he had interests previously contemplated, he (Mr. Brentn~ll) in Ithaca, and he "auld ven much like to did not know. ::Yir. Badger had been worrre.d see the tramo running out "there, but he by the delavs which had taken place, and 1t ~houg-ht that was a wrong way to bring would be a 'gn\~t relief to him, as well as to 1t about. Furthermor( the Council had others, th11t a decision had been come to. no power to insert a clause of that sort \Vith r;,garcl to the new ground opened by in the Bill. In the interests of Ithaca itself the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn, apart from the that was not the right ,,·ay to do it. ' constitutional question, he. ~i? not th\nk there was the slightest poss1b1hty of ge~tmg The I..TTORNEY-GENERAL: It will block all the Bill through this week if they pers1sted extensions. in makino- amendments in it. Now that they HoN. G. W. GRAY: There was no doubt had got ~o far after so much anxious ~e­ it would block all' extensions. He would liberation am! consultation, the best thmg vote against the amendment. to do was to accept the Bill. Ile thought. the interests of Ithaca and any other place I-Io;;. F. T. BRENTNALL was sorry that could be c:tfelv left »ith the Tramways Com· the amendment had been moved, for more pany, as it was to the interests of the com­ reasons than one. He did not think Ithaca pany to extend the tramo where there were or any other place had any reason to fE,al.· people to travel bv them. 'l'o embarrass the that before long the .accommodation they m~asure thev wei·e asked to validate, by deeired would not be given to them. He putting in arr amendment like the one pro­ was speaking as a result of conversations he posed, would only be undoing the useful had had on the subject with people who work that had been done. ought to know, and he did not think there HoN. A. G. C. HA WTHOR~: The Hon. would be any reluctance on the part of the Mr. Brentnall was quite satisfied with the Tr":mw~ys Company, now that they had got position he "as in himself, and if he (Mr. thc1r difficulty settled, to make further ex­ tensions. The question then arose-Why Hawt.horn) and those he represented were were some local authoritie> mentioned in the as comfortabh· off he would be quite satis­ Bill, whik those mentioned in the amend­ fiE'd. He w,{s a~ything but satisfied with ment were not inclu-ded in the Bill? He the position laid clown by the company that could not answer that, but he surmised some local authorities had to maintain the that, as there had been opposing influences roaclwav while other, were not asked to do with regard to the tramway extensions for so. Directly he ~~w the Bill, he wrote to some years past. those who had fallen in the manager of the Tramways Company. as with the requirements of the compan3 most mayor of Ithaca, .aoking if he was proposmg re'l

·them than th<:>y did. He was not going to have om· vote or three votes. The suhjects ,do anything to embarrass the Bill! n>or upon which a vot~ might be take~. on those would he ad the part of a dog m the conditwns were-the srto of the manger. Just because he could not get what [8 p.m.] ofliY were on ratcpa) crs wa, requrred by tho ::Yirmster, or the same fo0ting as other local authoriti+·'· upon which one-fifth of th? ratepayers of the and no'v they WBre in a different position area or division had ndttroned for an ex­ because of the road maintenance conditions. p ·t~"·Pion of opinion. If the clause \Vc:re car­ ried, tho ::Hinistcr \Vould ha\ ~ the, rrght to So far :ts Ithaca '"""' concerned, they were told that in the s-.,-,.r,t by and by they might carJin-P .>~Jl ratcpaycn• in a referend~m C?n anv of tho-.o que ,tions to ene YOl e. He chd get extc•1sions, but they would have to main­ nof kno\Y that thi., pro--rision had bc0n asked tain their own roads and keep them in for b" local ... uthoritios or by anyone else. repair. Tho ~nly qt!C'm certain that pinciple of voting under the LJcal f..utho­ rities },ct '' d-· ciiffncn.t to the !lri·lCiple Coorparoo r· ill a! " have to maintain the adoptee: in connmtion with the parliamentary road·•. fran1·bi~:.. .1. , as the, rat'-'lHlJ ers had_ or:e, b-vo, Hmr. A. G. C. HA WTHOR::'>J: At the or three votes, according to then· mterests present Hme, the r.rntm~" ays Company main­ i,t tho lo~alit'.. \Vhcn Yoting for a nlt' 11ber tain<;d th0 rc :tel" -'Y betwren the rails and of a loDI authority, a ratepayer might have 18 inchc; on c ac'1 side of the rails, but, so throe Yates, but in the question of a. refer­ far as the suburban local authoritif',,, ''ere rmdum, who,, it "as sout;cs~rons, referred to HoN. A. G. C. IIAWTHORN: He was ill section llA should be hmtlt d co ono ';ate. not .anticipating, but was going by what the The other part provided that he should have manager of tho Tramw:>ys Company said onlv one vote unless the Minister directed himself. He was sorry that the Govemment tha't he should have tho same number of had not given more sympathetie treatment votes as at the elcctiom of members. The to his request, as he was only asking for a hon. member'" objection F8f' 11s to be to the fair thing. He had done his duty in bring­ latter part of thB clause. ing the matter iorward. He would not call Hon. _\. G. C.:. H.nVTHOR::-i: The whole for a division on the amendment, because, clause is bad. from what hon. members had said, he could The ATTORJ\'EY-GENERAL: Tlwn the se<> it was hopeless to do so. Thev could hon. member nreferred to rdain the present only live in hopes that ,omething would be ,-stem by wl1ich a man could give three done for his district within tho next year or votes on any particular question'! two. Amendmont-(M'r. H?wthom's)-put and Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHOR~: He is entitled negatived.' ' to do so under the Act. CJ,,.uses 4, 5, and 6, the schedule, and the The ATTOR:-;;EY-GEXERAL: On a refer­ preamble, put and passed. endum in matters of local goYernment con­ cern h" submitted that it was l'f'osona1Jlo that The Council resunied. The CHAIRilrAN re­ 0ach rahp1Yer should have one vote. It was ported the Bill without amendment, and the not like returning members of a local report vras adopted. authority. Hon. A. G. C. I-IAWTHORX It might be a THE~D READING. rnore important matLor than electing mem­ On the motion of the ATTORNEY­ bers of the council. GENER.\L the Bill was rc•ad a third time, The ATTORJ\'EY-GE::'>JERAL: 'fhe hon. passed, and ordered to be returned to tho member might have made a good point if Assembly by mhsage in the usual form. h· had argued that, if a ratepayer had three vot' s for ono Plll'!10se, he should hav0 three votes for the other purpose; but that v;og LOO.AL ACTHORITIES ACTS A::YIEND­ not the noint he took. If the rlaw,e were MENT BILL. deleted, the moclwd of Yo'in'i on a referen­ Co:.nrrTTEE. dum >-:auld then he the san'a as the method of voting for the election of a m~mber of (Ho1•. W. }'. 'l'aylor in the chair.) the local authority; but it vas reasonable that, when they asked for the opinion of the Clauses 1 and 2 put and passed. ratepayers in a certain ar<,a, the m<'thod of On clause 3-" Amendment of ,ection voting should be mch a' to enable th •m to ascertain the onimon of the mai'Jritv of the llA "- ratepayNs. The majm·itv, ho":ever:, would HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN thought thi;, not decide the question if some ratepayers clause should be omitted. 'Whoever \Vas had three votes whilst others had onlv one Minister, it was injudicious to give him vote. He would ask tho Han. Mr. Ha":thorn power to say whether ratepayers should whether he wanted the words '' ,m], c s the Hon. T. O'Sullivan.] 2644 Local Authorities Acts [COUNCIL.] Amendment Bill.

Minister in any case directs that ratepayer" On clause 5-" Amendment of sectioiil shall have the same number of votes as at 67 "-- an election of members " omitted, ·or whether he wanted the whole clause struck out? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the omission of the paragraph reading- Han. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Strike out the whole clause. " And no claim, remedy, or cause of action in respect of an;y of the afore· HoN. M. JENSEN: Even if the clause said matters or otherwise in respect of v ere passed, it would not apply to tho two a_ny such ferry or its appurtenances shall most Important matters connected with local he or be brought save and except only gov<'"nment-the election of members and tho >aisin!j of a loan. In those two m'atten for the negligence of the local authority plural votmg would still prevail. It ·eemed or joint local authority (in~lucling its­ most reasonable that on a referendum one officers and servants) or the les,ee (in­ man should not give-as he heard one han. cluding his employees), as the case may mc:nbet pUL it--thH'Cl oninions and another be, in re~pcet to which they are new on:y. one. Tho tenden~y was towards the liable." abohtwn of plural voting. \Vhat va:ue "as Ao was pointed out on the second reading an oxpress10n on tho site of tho oflic< if 100 by the Ron. Mr. Hawthorn, that paragraph mis of the whole HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHOR)J th ught th<; thi;tg-should have one vote, and the man who reading of the Attorney-General WC!S per­ pmcl £20 or £30 in rates should have no !ectly correct. If they left the paragraph in,. mace than one vote. There was too much of a 1t meant nothing. It was mer<' surplusage, tendency nowadays to give a man only one and might lead to complications. It really vote. t:iuppobe it was necessarv to take the said, "You shall be liable for what you opinion o! tho shareholders of a company on arp liable for now. If you are not liable, the questwn of an alteration in the articles then you are not." There was no need of aowciation or .. ome other matter did to put in five or six lines to say that. they give a. man only one vo~e? H~ got votes accordmg to the number of share., he held; and, _if that principle was right RoN. P. J. LEAHY:· It seemed to him ~11 coJnnechon ''"' 1th comparncs .."'.us it wron~{ that the words it was proposed to omit were· 1n trw c ~.se of lo:~·.,'l auihorrhe~, because some kind of nrotection to local authorities. rn each ca · '3 it Has a. propQrty vote; In the early p'B.tt of the clause there was an 'l'h·c llon. "Ir. J~nsen said the tendencv aLligation on the local authority, and it was to gin? one rr::.;:n one Yotc. but th~ soemecl to him that the paragraph referred t~:nden~y had I!O nwgi .. : or L'harm for to qualified that obligation. If there was anv h1m. ""' c~mct' m;ght by a good thing doubt as to whether there would be any ?'. a bad _tnmg, and he thought tho chang ' additional liability, those wordF removed that m tho Bill was a bad onf', and therefore doubt. They were a safeguard for the local tlwy should leave the matter as it was. authorities, and he did not sn that anv harm WOuld be clone bv ]eaYing them in, ancl HoN. F. T. BRE::\fTXALL said he would vote for the deletion of the clause because it pos"ibly they might do good. · was very undesirable to have more than one Amendment agreed to. system of voting in connection with local Clause, as amended, put and passed. authorities. He maintained that a man who had by his industry or by his intelligence Clauses 6, 7, and 8 put and passed. qualified, b:: owning property, for more than one vote should ha.-" the privile~Se of using On clause 9-'' Light tramways for agri· those votf

HoN. A. GIBSON moved the omission of to eliminate them. He did not claim any the word "th.ree," on line 14, with a Yiew special knowledge of these matters,. but he -of inserting the word " nine." understood that it was conSidered 1t would Amendment agreed tc, together with a con be an improvement to the Bill. He could not ·sequential amendment on line 16. see himself that it would do an~ harm. He therefore moved the amendment. HoN. M. JENSEN mid it would have been wise if the clause had contained a pro­ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: At present vision giving the tramway owners the right when a map or plan showed a proposed road -of appeal to the Governor in Council i:f the which at either end thereof was blocke~ by local authorities refused to grant them a private land unless such road afforded duect permit. If the local authority, in the first in­ approach t~ a railway station, the local stance. refused a permit, then there was no authoritv could object to such road, and :right of appeal. Sometimos pcrwnal influence their objection would be final. That had came in, or a permit might be refused for been the law since 1902, when the Local political reasons. Authorities _\ct was passed, and no reason had been given whv it should be altered HoN. A. GIBSON .ssive. '· In all caoes where any such proposed " Therefore. it is desired thr:re shonJ.d new road is of a less width than one be an appeal to the Minister, and the chain and also is of a less width than proposed amendment-providing for the the wi~th of the road or roads providing appeal-is set out in thr memoran-dum access, etc. attached herehJ. Amendment agreed to. " If the section were amended s s .cJ,sired, where objections to dead ends Ho". P. J. LEAHY moved the addition to roads are valid. the Cliinister would, ·uf the following subc!a use :- of course, support. the objPction madil " In subse0tion 8 of section 76 of the by the local authonty. Where, however, principal Act, the words 'which objection the local authority will consent-at .1 shall be final ' are repealed." price-the Ministe; might giYe relief if, ~ in his opinion, the sum demande-d wau 'The par?graph as amended in the principal shown to be unfair and excersive," Act would then read- " (8) Provided that in every case The local authorities would probably say where such map or plan shows any pro­ that it was a fair ·thing that they ·should posed road which, at either end thereof, get some amount of money on .account of thu is blocked by private lands, the local l'oads which would have to be made and authority may, unless such road will maintained bv them. There was something afford direct approach to a railway sta­ in that contention. but in some cases they tion, object to such road." a<;kcd for more than a. fair thing; and, if there was any particular bitterness, or aay lt was here tha£ the words "which objec­ "set" a"'ainst a particular individual, the :tion shall be final " came in, and he proposed clauso ,,';ight be made oppressive; but, if Hon. P. J. Lealvy.] 2646 Papers. [ASSEMBLY] Questicns.

there was the right of appeal to the Mini~­ ter, it would have a restraining influence upon local authorities. He· did not care what was the fate of the amendment, bLJt he had done his duty in submitting it. Amendment (Mr. Leahy's) agreed to. Clause 22, as amended, put and passed. Clauses 23, 24, and 25 put and passed. On postponed clause 9-" Light tramway5 for agricultural purposcs"- HoN. M. JENSEN moved the insertion, after line 16, of the following paragraph:- " If the local authority for three months after the applicati

ADJOURNMENT.

HaN. A. H. BARLOW: I beg to move ~ that the Council do now adjourn. I pro­ pose to-morrow to put the Miners' Home­ stead Leases Act Amendment Bill through all ih stages. My colleague "ill then put through all their stages the Criminal Code Amendment Bill and the Gladstone Har­ bour Board Bill. I hope that we may escape sitting at night. Hon. A. G. C~ HAWTHORN: Shall we be sitting on Friday~ HoN. A. H. BARLOW: Yee; and per­ haps on Saturday morning to receive the Appropriation Bill. Question put and passed. The Council adjourned at two minutes to 9 o'clock.