Cuyahoga County Community College Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC

-- -So Christine Hickey is here with Lori Stokes and we're going to be talking about her uncle and her father. You go by Lori Stokes, right? I do. L-O-R-I S-T-O-R-K-E-S. S-T-O-K-E-S. What did I say? R-K- something? Strokes? S-T-O-K-E-S. It's okay. I've probably been called worse. So first I want to talk a little about Carl. I know you were young when he became mayor, but in general tell me about your memories of your Uncle Carl?

TC: 11:40:29 My memories of my Uncle Carl span such a huge amount of years, when you talk about when he first went into, became 's mayor and America's first black mayor. That was 1967 and I was born in '62, so I was very young. But I certainly know of all the stories, particularly of that night that he was elected because he won by 1700 votes. So it was still close, but it was still a clear win.

TC: 11:41:03 So I hear the stories about that night when my father was upstairs with Dr. Martin Luther King, and when they found out, when the results came in, the jubilation in the streets and this triumph against , who in itself was such a huge name and a legacy. That America never thought something like this would happen. So I've heard the tales of that night and how my father stayed upstairs with Dr. King while my Uncle Carl went downstairs to greet his voters with this wonderful news of what had just happened and the implications of what it meant around the world, for that matter.

TC: 11:41:45 My recollection's more where, of course, as I got older, with my Uncle Carl and the love that he showed toward me and also what he meant to this country. Whether it was as the . He then went on to become New York's first black anchorman. Then coming back home to Cleveland, becoming a judge, and then being appointed to the Ambassador to the Seychelles by President Clinton.

TC: 11:42:20 Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC

So during those times, particularly I remember when I was at State. When I was at Ohio State, and I would call my uncle. Because he knew I had no money and he would send me money while I was there, so that I could get, you know, chicken wings or whatever it was. That always continued to be a theme.

TC: 11:42:43 He was so instrumental. As I mentioned, he became New York's first anchorman. When I told him that I was thinking of going into journalism, we were standing at his home on Larchmont and he was just giving me advice of the responsibility that comes with being a journalist. Beyond being fair, the truth that's involved with being a journalist. The awesome responsibility of the power that you have.

TC: 11:43:15 And an obligation that you have to viewers. He was telling me that I had to have a thick skin. He told me, "Don't lose the compassion, don't become jaded, but believe in yourself." He said to me, "You sure you want to do this?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm sure, Uncle Carl." I remember at the time he was in the transition of going to the Ambassadorship, so he was selling everything at the home in Shaker Heights.

TC: 11:43:47 He gave me his only Emmy that he had gotten from WNBC in New York for the great, outstanding work that he had done. To me, I have it today with all of my other Emmy's, but it's front and center and it still is one of the most precious gifts I've ever received.

TC: 11:44:10 Because I feel as if my uncle, in everything he did, was so much like my father, in that excellence was one of the leading factors that made them who they both were. That they demanded excellence of themselves. And then that became something I think that others could follow.

TC: 11:44:37

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Even when I was -- my first job in Champagne, Urbana, again I was making no money. And again, my uncle was there sending a check here and there. Something we didn't even discuss with my parents. It was just the goodness, the goodness of who he was.

What would you say, you can name the one legacy that everybody knows, but is there another legacy? What would you say the legacy of Carl Stokes was?

TC: 11:45:30 I think the legacy of my Uncle Carl was -- you know the phrase of jack of all trades, master of none. I think that my uncle was jack of all trades, master of all. Everything he did, whether he was a liquor agent, or boxing, or playing billiards, or being the mayor, or being a journalist, or being an Ambassador, or being an uncle, or being a father, or being a brother, or being a husband, or being a son.

TC: 11:46:08 I think he mastered it all with such energy and enthusiasm. He did everything his way. He didn't follow anybody's book, but his own. And no one could replicate what he did. He had fire, he didn't take any foolishness off of anyone, and if you challenged him to something you'd better be prepared to lose. Because he was going to go deep, and he was going to win. I think that's his legacy.

That's good. It sums him all up. Yes. It goes back to that excellence, what you were talking about before. Yes. Expecting excellence out of themselves. Yes. Now, your uncle and father worked together as a team. I don't know if you saw it as much because you were younger at the time, but they very much worked together as a team, I'm guessing throughout their lives. Yes. Tell me about their relationship from your perspective, the two brothers.

TC: 11:47:11 The relationship between my father and my uncle, I think was extraordinary. There was a very deep love that they had for one another. That love really started as children, because they did not have their father. Their father died when my father was three, Carl was one, he died of acute

Page 3 of 17 Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC peritonitis. So they never had the benefit of knowing their father, and being able to emulate anyone.

TC: 11:47:43 It was Carl, my dad, and their mother. She loved those boys like nobody's business. You know, the story, of course everyone knows, my grandmother was a domestic and would travel, take two trolley cars to clean other people's homes. She called it in service, she did not call herself a domestic. She had a 7th grade education, she made $8.00 a day, and she had asked her mother to come up from Georgia to help assist with everything because she would sometimes have to spend the night.

TC: 11:48:16 So with her being gone, there were many times where Carl and Lou, Billy and Brother as they were called when they were young, they only had each other and they really had to depend on each other, for everything. You know, during the Great Depression, when they would fill a wagon with food supplies and one would carry a stick to beat off anyone who came on the side while the other one would pull the dry goods.

TC: 11:48:41 They took odd jobs. My dad used to shine shoes, and the more he'd pop the rag the bigger tip he would get. Carl would collect glass and plastic bottles, and try and get money for that. So there was a, it went beyond siblings. I mean, they were almost one at times. Always looking out for the other one's back, from childhood through adulthood.

TC: 11:49:05 Even through the neighborhood adults, you know? Whether it was Carl learning how to box, and my dad, also. Although Carl was better at boxing. There was this, always a parallel but yet they each took their own path. You know, my dad loved the law, Carl loved politics. Even though they both went off to the war, of course. They both served in the Army.

TC: 11:49:32

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But my father embraced going to school a little bit more than my uncle. Because Carl wanted to get there. You know? He didn't always want to have to go do all the work to get there, you know? 'Cause he was gonna get there his way. So I always grew up knowing they had this machine. They had a Stokes machine that came from childhood, through their teen years, serving in the Army, coming back, both going to law school.

TC: 11:50:10 Eventually having a partnership in a law firm. Although my dad talks about the only time that they argued was one time when my father kept feeling as if my uncle wasn't bringing in law cases. He said to him, you know, "Carl, you're having these meetings, talking about politics; you're not bringing cases in. I need you to bring in some clients." And he said, "Lou, I'm paying the rent. Which means that for half of this I can do whatever I want to, in this office."

TC: 11:50:47 So my father acknowledged, eh, he had a point. Then, you know, he told him, "I had this dream. I had this dream that we would have this law partnership and we would be the greatest lawyers together." And he basically said to my father, "Lou, you should share that dream with me." You know? Because his love was for politics, and my dad's was for the law. But they supported each other in a phenomenal way, never tearing the other one down, never having a rivalry with one another. Always trying to understand where the other one was coming from.

TC: 11:51:23 I think of when my father became a member of Congress, and he and his brother, there's a famous photo of them standing in front of a Capital Building. America's first black mayor, and Ohio's first black Congressman. Standing side by side, these two brothers who came from absolutely nothing making history and changing the framework of politics, and of black politics.

TC: 11:51:58 Then as time went on, I think of even when my uncle was the Ambassador to the Seychelles and there was an event that they were supposed to go to here in Cleveland and my uncle was having

Page 5 of 17 Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC some issues with his throat. He told my father, "Lou, I can't make it to this event." He described some of the symptoms that he was starting to have, and they went to the doctor and he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer.

TC: 11:52:30 My father spoke often about the time that they went to one of the New York hospitals to see if he could find some treatment for this. Surgeon opened up my uncle and closed him up after half an hour. My father talks about he will never forget the day when that surgeon came back and said there was nothing that they could do for my uncle.

TC: 11:52:59 They had an extraordinarily frank relationship, an honest relationship with each other. To the very end, when my uncle passed away and my father had the loss of his baby brother. It was very difficult. They were something else together.

Now your father, from what I've heard, he was passionate about the law. Didn't really have politics in his blood. Yeah, not at all. He didn't really have politics in his blood like your brother did, but both of them felt they needed, I believe, to serve in political life. Where do you think that motivation came from?

TC: 11:54:21 I'm not sure exactly where the love of politics came from. But I do believe that both of them felt they had an obligation to change the world. They felt as if they were caught up in this movement of change, during the Civil Rights Movement. Knowing that they came from the belly of poverty, and realizing along the way the achievements that they were making, I think they both felt they had an obligation to uplift others.

TC: 11:55:06 I think they both realized that their power was coming from a place of a whole wave of individuals that were swept up in this movement. I know that my uncle was inspired a lot by

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John Holly, who had come up from Tuscaloosa and was leading boycotts in Cleveland against different white owned stores who would not employ blacks.

TC: 11:55:50 So Mr. Holly's whole philosophy was, "If these stores won't employ blacks, then we ought not support them." So he went from, you know, The May Company, and the Transit System, and banks, and the Bell Telephone system making a change. He had caught the eye even of Martin Luther King, who was this person who was effecting change in Cleveland and it was during the time of voter registration.

TC: 11:56:28 My uncle was inspired by John Holly, and my father of course was in the Redress Committee of the NAACP here at the time, as well. So it was almost a frenzy of change in this pocket of '64 through '68, '69 where whether it was NAACP, and boycotting, and voter registration.

TC: 11:57:01 And my uncle serving in the state legislature and then wanting to run for Congress but he couldn't because at the time they were gerrymandering and they were trying to put up an obstacle so that he couldn't. And his first run in '65, in which he lost, but then deciding to run again in '67 while my father was handling the litigation part of the gerrymandering.

TC: 11:57:28 Then once he became the mayor, and originally was going to run for Congress. My father said, "Okay, now Carl you can run for Congress," and he said, "But I'm the Mayor." Then my father running for Congress. All in this little nutshell of relatively eight years of all the overlapping. So I think they felt that, in a role of the Mayor of Cleveland, and the role that my father had now as a US Congressman.

TC: 11:58:05 The power to suddenly give other people rights that had no voice, who were underserved, and underrepresented, and had -- who were powerless. They realized in their roles in politics they

Page 7 of 17 Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC could give them power. And inspire. And let them know that the status quo did not have to be anymore. I think they knew they were the instruments to effect the change. It was a long way to get to that, but --

No, that's okay. There's lots of little things in there. You know how it is. You know your father didn't originally want to run for Congress. Do you remember? You were young, though. No, he was a very reluctant politician. What do you think --

TC: 11:59:19 You know, when I alluded to the gerrymandering, then no longer was my uncle capable of running for Congress. My father had realized how historical my uncle's election was, as Mayor. He saw this opportunity to become Ohio's first black representative as another historical moment. Having the two Stokes brothers together in this historical platform in America, you couldn't beat it.

TC: 12:00:02 He knew by galvanizing -- everything was always grass roots. They knew by starting grass roots you could galvanize. Particularly with the 21st District. The 21st Congressional District was an example for the entire world on how it's done. When my father had Arnold Pinkney as his campaign manager, who he talked about for years as being masterful when it comes to running a campaign.

TC: 12:00:35 They had a beautiful relationship for years. As with politics, there are always moments when there are falling outs, but the love for one another, and the loyalty that they had for one another, it was one for the history books. Up until the day my father passed away, he was still so proud of the fact that he was the only black man that Ohio has ever sent to the United States Congress.

TC: 12:01:07

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We've had, of course, you know, Marcia Fudge and Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, who he loves and adores both of those women, and it broke his heart when Stephanie passed. But he would always remark he was still the only black man that this great state sent to Congress.

TC: 12:01:28 I think that once he got in there, again with the nine members that were there, his dear friend, Bill Clay from Missouri and Shirley Chisholm from New York and Charlie Rangel from New York. At the time, Adam Clayton Powell was still there, Charlie Diggs, George Collins from Illinois. Conyers was there from Michigan.

TC: 12:01:58 They, you know, then formed the Congressional Black Caucus, and this was during a time when our president was Nixon, who would not listen to them. Would not listen to the needs of African Americans across this country. They were the ones who held his feet to the fire and said, "Well, we're going to boycott your State of the Union. You won't listen to us, we're not going to listen to you."

TC: 12:02:23 It was only during that time that the President then started to realize the power that had been formed, 1971, with the Congressional Black Caucus, to make a manifesto of what the needs were going to be for African Americans in the country and that they were not going to be silent, and he was going to listen to their needs. Whether it revolved around housing, or education, or the environment, or health care.

TC: 12:02:52 So many issues that were not afforded, that blacks were not afforded the benefit of. I think he started to realize, while he might have been reluctant in the beginning, he realized that once he could get into the halls of Congress, the power that could be obtained. Whether it was sitting on the subcommittees of the Appropriations, or leading the House Ethics, or his work with the House Assassinations Committee.

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TC: 12:03:23 That these were the different areas, you know, when different government entities would come before him and his Committees and they would ask for money for X, Y, and Z. He would be able to say to them, "Well, how many black people are in your agency? What type of work are you doing on behalf of black Americans across this country?" If they were not able to tell him what they were doing, he would then say to them, "Well then, there's no reason for me to fund whatever your interests are if you don't step up to the plate and recognize that this is part of your constituency as well.

TC: 12:04:00 I think that's one of the things that he was so proud of. That he, in a sea of whites, on these various committees that he sat on, he knew it was incumbent upon him at every single committee hearing to bring up the needs of his constituents and black Americans across the country. That he knew, although he would get tired of saying, "Here I go again." And he knew that they would probably roll their eyes, "Oh, there goes Lou." That he knew it had to be done. If it wasn't his voice bringing it up, who was going to bring it up?

TC: 12:04:36 He said he thought, as he would reflect upon his 30 years in Congress, he would say, "Did I do the right thing? Should I have brought it up at that committee?" Then he always came to the conclusion that he did the right thing. That he left people in a much better state than when he first came to Congress, and that he paved the way for so many. So I think he ended up realizing he was meant to be a politician.

TC: 12:05:06 He loved the law, but he was also meant to be a politician.

Yeah, he was able to impact Cleveland and the United States on a broader scale. Things that have lived on and will live on -- Yes. -- way beyond him. Yeah. What does the Stokes Commemorative Project mean to you and your family? To have a project like this that revolves around your uncle and your father.

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TC: 12:05:43 Well, you know, I've talked with President Johnson about this. What it means to the Stokes family. I have to believe that both my uncle and my father are looking down and seeing this. You know, both of them benefited from seeing building go up while they were here, getting numerous awards, hearing the accolades, having people always come up to them and tell them what they meant to them. They always cherished that.

TC: 12:06:14 I know that my father really was a humble man. He appreciated so much. Simple things. A thank you for someone. Someone telling a story how he helped them do something. He would take his time with individuals. But I think there were times, when you're in politics it's a thankless job, and sometimes you feel alone. Sometimes you feel as if people don't really know what you've done, what you've sacrificed. You know, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

TC: 12:06:55 So while I think both of them secured their legacy through their actions, serving the people of Cleveland and serving the nation, so often when people are gone we forget about them. I think what Tri-C is doing with the 50th Commemoration of my uncle and of my father, is that validation of what the Stokes brothers did.

TC: 12:07:37 It's also one of the most beautiful thank yous that the Stokes family could ever ask for. You know, my father's always going to be my father. I'm always going to love him. You know, walked the walk with him as he served. But this has gone above and beyond. When you have a yearlong set of talks, and concerts, and plays, and speeches, and gatherings.

TC: 12:08:20 When you collectively pull together the Maltz Museum, and the Mandel family, and , and Karamu, and so many entities that are what make this town great. That everyone is participating, spearheaded by Tri-C.

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TC: 12:08:50 It is, as my father would, I can only imagine my dad would smile and be so humbled and be so grateful and say, "You shouldn't have." But he'd be glad that they did.

Yep.

TC: 12:09:14 Because what you all are doing continues to live on and further cement the legacy of the Stokes brothers and keeps it fresh in many generations' minds. Also, I hope inspires people in a way that they understand that no obstacle should ever really stand in the way of what they want to achieve and what they can do for others.

TC: 12:09:46 That they can achieve the greatness that the Stokes brothers did, and beyond. So we're very thankful.

Why do you feel this project is important to our community, and then in particular young people? Your uncle and your father, I believe, had a passion, they were caught up in that movement, but from what I've heard they really want to inspire others. Particularly about it's important for them to know.

TC: 12:10:47 Well, I'll tell you because I usually clam up and I don't talk very much, but I'll tell you two stories. One is, which my dad talks about in the book, but which I knew. When Stephanie Tubbs- Jones passed and at that time Barack Obama was still Senator Obama. Stephanie had been a real proponent of Hillary Clinton.

TC: 12:11:12 She had broken away from the Black Caucus in her support for Hillary Clinton versus the Black Caucus who basically said they wanted Barack Obama.

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TC: 12:11:20 So when Stephanie passed away from a brain aneurysm, on the dais Senator Obama was there, along with Senator Clinton, former President , John Kasich, so many other dignitaries, and each were eulogizing Stephanie. At the time, my dad was 83 years old. He got up and was getting ready to eulogize Stephanie.

TC: 12:11:53 He turned for a moment and looked behind him, where Senator Obama was, and he turned to him and he said, "Senator Obama, I am 83 years old and never in my lifetime did I think I would see a qualified African American to run for the highest office in the nation." Senator Obama got up and he hugged my father and he whispered something in his ear.

TC: 12:12:21 So the memorial service, the funeral continued, and at the end of it my father came back over to my mother and myself, our family, and I said to my father, "Daddy, what did Senator Obama say to you?" He said, "He said to me, 'I just want you to know that I know I would not be here if it were not for you and your brother.'" And he said, "And I said to him, 'Thank you.' And he said to me, 'No, thank you.'"

TC: 12:12:59 So on that level we see the impact of Carl Stokes and , with a man who became our first African American President. Then in the same token, I see Zack Reed, Jeff Johnson, even the mayor. We're all inspired by what my father did, and my uncle.

TC: 12:13:31 Up until several months before my father passed away, he was over at a school in Shaker, at a high school, talking with about five young men who were putting a film together about Carl Stokes and racism. My father had gone over there to sit with them and talk about racism in America, and the legacy of Carl Stokes. And spent several hours with them.

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TC: 12:14:03 He always wanted to learn from young people, and he wanted them to learn from him. He never thought of himself as above anybody, he always cherished and embraced the ability to exchange ideas and to inspire younger people. Hoping that that one person, that something resonated and would spur someone else, a young person, to do it.

TC: 12:14:40 I tell the story of my father took me -- my father used to be on the Four City Board of Directors. Of course, they were responsible for the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, New York. So when the Barclay Center was opening, the opening night was Jay Z performing. My father called me and he said, "Do you want to go see Jay Z perform at the Barclay Center?" He said, "Because it's opening night and I can take you."

TC: 12:15:14 So I said, "Oh, yeah. Sure. I'll go see Jay Z." So I asked my younger daughter, who is a beyond Jay Z fan, Nicki. So she said, "Yes, yes." Anyway, Nicki and I are at the Barclay Center, my dad was flying in from Cleveland. I met him in there. Now, everybody is dressed like you would be for a Jay Z concert.

TC: 12:15:39 So my father comes in with the expression "clean to the bone," suit, tie, pocket square matching, immaculate. So we go down and we sit there and Jay Z performs and the crowd's going crazy and we're dancing. My father's still sitting and talking to his fellow board members. So anyway, the concert ends, we walk up to the top of the steps.

TC: 12:16:06 All of a sudden my father just starts dancing. Because Jay Z's still performing. My father's doing whatever this dance is that, you know, is from 1960. But still with it, still energized by being around young people and what's happening and always wanting to be up to date. Then we get in the car, and it was so funny. He turns to my daughter, Nicki, and he says, "You know," talking about Jay Z, "he can't really sing. He's no Duke Ellington."

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TC: 12:16:45 You know, it was just one slice of my dad's appreciation for every generation, and wanting to inspire every generation and to be inspired by it. I think that there are plenty of Lou Stokes' and plenty of Carl Stokes' running around who are interested in politics and the law, and being people who go on and inspire others.

TC: 12:17:22 I think it continues generation after generation after generation what the Stokes brothers, the foundation that they laid.

Do you have anything else that you would like to talk about? I think you talked a little bit about what you feel your father's greatest accomplishment was. I think that's in there a little bit, but if you want to talk about -- I'll tell you the one thing that he -- Or what he thinks was his --

TC: 12:17:52 I think what he thinks, and there are so many. You can always read a bio on either one. But I think there are two things that stand out. One is personal, and the other's professional. On the personal end, I think it is his love of family. He is well documented, the love that he had for his mother, who sacrificed and did everything under the sun for her boys.

TC: 12:18:32 But I think he also had a great love story with my mother. He had been previously married, he had three young children, and he had custody of his children, 1960. 1959. Which was unusual for a man to have custody of his children. But he adored them. Even not being able to have the benefit of knowing how to raise. When you talk to my brother, he played ball with my brother, he took him to the baseball games, they had a beautiful life together.

TC: 12:19:08 With both of my sisters, he was hands on with his kids, and certainly with me. He and I shared a very unique, very, very, very special relationship. But when he married my mother, who was 13

Page 15 of 17 Stokes Initiative Lori Stokes TC years younger than him, and all of a sudden had this instant family of little children, and raised them, he always made it so clear how appreciative he was that she raised these children as if they were her own.

TC: 12:19:47 I came two years after they married, in 1962. As a family unit, all of us, together, led by my mother so that he could run for Congress, so he could spend so much time in Washington. Because initially he moved to Washington two years before we did. Then when he knew he was going to be re-elected we all collectively moved.

TC: 12:20:16 So even when he -- I was his care provider once he became ill in June of 2015. He had asked that I would take care of him. One day he was, by this time it was perhaps maybe two weeks before he passed. He was up at all hours of the night, he could never sleep. We would have these conversations about any and everything.

TC: 12:20:44 One day he said that he had never thought about being in this situation, because he was so busy living. Then he said to me, "You know what I'm going to miss the most?" And I said, "No, daddy, what?" He said, "My family." He said, "I have a wonderful family."

TC: 12:21:07 So I think that that's one important thing that people really should know. Aside from his love of God, of the law, of service, was the love he had for his family.

TC: 12:21:29 On a professional level, he has often, on a professional level he has spoken about he felt his greatest accomplishment was a legislation that he was able to get on behalf of minorities when it came to health care. Because he felt it was so disproportionate, the care that African Americans got in this country.

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TC: 12:21:55 He felt as if so much of his work on Capitol Hill was to ensure that they got the proper doctors, and access to healthcare. Even up until the year he died, he was working on the different treatment for Caucasian men versus black men when it came to colon cancer. That the treatment needed to be different.

TC: 12:22:27 So almost up until the end he still was working on making sure that minorities were afforded the same healthcare that mainstream America was getting. One of the fruits of that labor was having a building named after him on the campus of NIH.

TC: 12:22:57 He spoke about when he was taking a tour of it and there was a black mason who was putting the bricks in place. My father was introduced to this man and he said, "Do you know who this person is?" The mason said, "No, I don't know who he is." He said, "This is Congressman Stokes, this is who the building's named after." When my father looked at this man, he said, "I didn't know which one was prouder, him or me." He turned to my father and he said, "Congressman, I'm going to make sure that each brick is straight. And if it isn't, we're going to straighten it."

TC: 12:23:44 There's a picture of him looking at the plaque on the side of the building, of NIH Laboratory, Building Number One. No. It's a picture of him looking at the plaque that's on his building, Building 50, Louis Stokes Laboratory. He's got his glasses off and he's crying. Because to him that was kind of the crescendo of it all and one of the biggest thank yous that he could have ever had from his service to the nation.1 2

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