An Interview with James Holland

BY ANDREW P. SIMCO

AMES HOLLAND WAS PRINCIPAL PER- There was an amateur orchestra at have had a magnificent sound! cussionist of the London Symphony home, and the conductor lived just Holland: That’s right. I mean, Jimmy JOrchestra from 1962 until 1971, be- down the road from us. Absolutely on Bradshaw’s sound on all those fore moving to the same position with the the spur of the moment one afternoon, I Philharmonia recordings in the 1950s BBC Symphony Orchestra, a position saw his wife on the street and I asked was absolutely fabulous, as was Peter from which he has recently retired. In ad- her if there was anyone there who could Allen’s sound. dition, he has been for many years per- teach me. That was how I started. cussionist with the London Sinfonietta, Simco: You stated in your clinic yesterday where he is still engaged, and has Simco: You mentioned in your clinic that your original intention was not to worked with such eminent composers as that when you started, there were only be a professional musician, but to be a Karlheinz Stockhausen, Pierre Boulez, about eighteen percussion instru- teacher. Oliver Knussen, Krystof Penderecki and ments listed in the Grove’s Dictionary Holland: Right, but I very quickly real- Hans Werner Henze, just to name a few. of Music. ized that teaching wasn’t for me. I He is the author of the book Percussion, Holland: Sixteen, and that was the Ox- was doing more and more playing and, published by Kahn and Averill as part of ford Dictionary of Music! of course, one had to do National Ser- the Menuhin Music Guide Series. vice, so I took the audition for the The Scandinavian Percussion Sympo- Simco: You also mentioned your first pro- Central Band in the RAF, and ended sium was held at the Norwegian State fessional teacher, who was timpanist of up there for about three years, which Music Academy in Oslo, November 10– the London Philharmonic at the time. meant that I could still take lessons, 12, 1995. Holland gave an informative Holland: That was Peter Allen, and he so I used to do my xylophone solos! and interesting two-hour presentation on played on four hand-tuned drums. His Looking back, the RAF band was all Saturday, November 11, and on the fol- skill and facility over those four hand- good experience. But all these years lowing afternoon, the two of us sat down tuned drums always had my utmost later, I can remember going down to and taped the following interview. admiration. I can remember later on, the audition, and being terribly disap- having to take over an Elgar sym- pointed by the instruments. I expected Andrew Simco: Jim, you might want to phony, it took all my time to read the them to be new and gleaming, and it start off with telling us a little bit piece and play it properly on pedal- wasn’t at all like that. about your background. tuned timpani. I remember thinking, James Holland: I started percussion “But Peter played this on four hand- Simco: You mentioned the instruments in when I was about thirteen, I suppose. I tuned timpani!” I was amazed by this, the London Philharmonic during the was very friendly with a boy whose fa- but then again, all the London players period you studied with Peter Allen. He ther had a dance band in the South at the time used hand-tuned drums. showed you what they had, and you End. They used to do the odd radio Jimmy Bradshaw, who was the timpa- stated that you were horrified to dis- show, and there was always a trumpet nist of the Philharmonia and an in- cover what they actually used. lying about, and I could never even get credible player, had a set of pre-war Holland: I just could not believe my eyes! a “raspberry” out of the thing. When Leedy pedal timpani, but he de-acti- They had four hand-tuned timpani of we were about thirteen, we joined the vated the pedals by strapping them the Parsons-type, a single-headed bass Army cadets at school, so we thought into place, and he used them as hand- drum of about forty inches in diameter we’d have a go for the band. tuned drums! and the pair of cymbals was a fifteen- inch and a sixteen-inch—not your Simco: You come from London? Simco: As I understand it, the players in matched pair of today. There were two Holland: That’s right. I thought it was no Britain at the time felt that the me- deep snare drums, which only sat on good me taking up the bugle, so I took chanics of the pedal timpani tended to trestles, so they could only be played at the drum. Then I think I was a little dampen the sound of the instrument. an angle of forty-five degrees and there jealous of my friend, because he was They would rather have hand-tuned was no adjustment for height, a tam- learning violin, and although I was drums with a full, bell-like tone qual- bourine with half the jingles missing, a learning the piano and was much fur- ity, rather than pedal-tuned drums three-octave xylophone, and a glocken- ther on, he was in the orchestra! I with slightly less tone quality. Having spiel with all raised screws, so if you wanted to be in the orchestra, so I had a chance to look at some of the in- weren’t totally accurate, you’d wind up watched the lad play timps for two struments of that period, it seems as if hitting the screws instead of the bars. weeks, and then he left and went on to the players of that period preferred a There were some triangles and a tam university. At the time I didn’t know hand-tuned instrument with a very tam maybe twenty-six inches in diam- one end of the stick from the other. deep kettle. If tuned properly, they must eter, which always reminded me of

PERCUSSIVE NOTES 68 APRIL 1997 turning up with just one bass drum, esting. Obviously a very good band.” and as it turned out, the single-headed They reached the last movement, and bass drum, slightly damped, was just there were proper bells, but I didn’t what they wanted. really like the sound of them. Then it got to the bass drum, and I remember Simco: I imagine that it would work very thinking, “Oh! I don’t like that! It well in the Verdi Requiem as well. sounds like an overgrown tom-tom.” I Holland: Yes, sometimes. Perhaps in the thought “Which orchestra is this?” It solo in the “Dies Irae.” However, there turned out to be the Berlin Philhar- are even larger single-headed bass monic and Karajan! drums in London that would be more suited to that particular piece. In the Simco: I guess that it must have been re- Rite of Spring I would use the normal, corded a bit on the “dry” side. or double-headed bass drum, and the Holland: It’s always a bit of an educa- single-headed bass drum flat, and tion when you’re listening to some- slightly muffled for the end of Part One. thing, and you have no idea who is Speaking of the Rite of Spring, we actually playing! kicking a dustbin lid. It was an abso- did the 50th anniversary performance lutely appalling sound! of the Rite of Spring under Pierre Simco: To get back to your studies, once Monteux, and we were rehearsing at you began to study with Peter Allen, Simco: In terms of instrument quality, when the Royal Academy of Music. This was you changed the focus of your educa- did things begin to change for the better? a three-hour rehearsal, and Monteux, tion from teaching to performance. Was Holland: In the late 1950s there was a who was about eighty-five or eighty-six this at the Royal Academy? very good recording firm that began to at the time, said to the orchestra, “We Holland: No, Trinity College. I was only make records in London. I believe it play now the whole piece.” A voice with Peter Allen for a short time there, was the Everest label. Then, of course, called out from the back of the hall, before I left, because as I said yester- as some of our players went abroad to “Oh no you won’t,” and up ran his wife, day, it took them all of fifteen months shop, we began to get Avedis Zildjian who proceeded in no uncertain terms to find a suitable instructor. I had a cymbals and Paiste tam tams. Compos- to tell him off. He sort of waved her few kit (drumset) lessons with Max ers and conductors were traveling away, and then turned ’round to the or- Abrams at the same time, although much more over the world, and they chestra and said, “Part Two.” these were “under the table,” so to would see these ethnic instruments. speak. If Peter Allen found out I was The composers would write for them, Simco: When did you switch over to using studying kit, I would have been thrown and of course the film world and pop the double-headed bass drum? out on my ear! world all contributed to the influx of Holland: We started getting the double- Also, I learned a tremendous new instruments. This lead to the situ- headed bass drums around the end of amount from Charlie Donaldson, who ation where a conductor or composer the 1950s, but of course there were was my predecessor as principal per- would ask, “Haven’t you got a proper quite a few made in London. Of course, cussionist with the London Symphony. bass drum?”—by which they meant a when Kurt came to the orchestra, we He was way ahead of his time in a lot double-headed bass drum. got one of the German-made bass of things. Everest actually gave drums where the depth of the shell is Charles a whole session to experiment Simco: I’ve seen the single-headed bass greater than the diameter of the play- with different drums and sticks, just to drums only in pictures, but from what ing surface. (Author’s note: Jim is re- see what they sounded like. you said in your clinic, I understand ferring to Kurt Hans Goedicke, that they are still in use. What are the principal timpanist of the LSO from Simco: Sounds like they were a very for- advantages and disadvantages of this 1963 to the present.) ward-looking recording company—very particular drum? I notice that the BBC much like the Mercury “Living Pres- Symphony has one such instrument. Simco: I heard that drum when the LSO ence” team. Speaking of Mercury, you Holland: They are wonderful for certain came to Carnegie Hall in 1974 or 1975. did many of their sessions, did you not? pieces. For example, I use one in per- The sound of that instrument positively (Author’s note: The Mercury “Living forming Stravinsky’s The Soldier’s filled Carnegie Hall! Presence” recording team made many Tale. The single-head drum offers a Holland: It’s a very interesting sound. I excellent recordings with the LSO, most more focused sound, which I prefer. remember only a few weeks ago when of them conducted by Antal Dorati dur- Last year, we recorded a Stravinsky I was in the car driving home, I ing the late fifties and early sixties. piece which I had never come across switched the radio on, and they were Most of these recordings have been re- before, a late work, called The Flood. broadcasting the Symphonie released on compact disc.) This has a narrator, and while the nar- Fantastique of Berlioz. When I Holland: That’s right. They used these ration is going on, there is a bass drum switched the radio on, the perfor- omni-directional microphones, and it semi-quaver pattern underneath. I mance had reached the middle of the was always the same with Dorati, who knew that it wouldn’t be any good third movement, so I thought, “Inter- would always catch the first clarinet

PERCUSSIVE NOTES 69 APRIL 1997 that by approximately 1970 or so, you had the timpanist, who was a principal, but responsible only for the timpani, and you also had a percussionist desig- nated as a principal and paid as such who was responsible for organizing the section and playing many, if not all, of the key percussion parts. Prior to that, the timpanist in many orchestras was in charge of organizing the section. This was due to several factors—one being the fact that since he played most of the repertory, he was “on hand,” so to speak, and the conductor was used to dealing with him. Also, in many cases, he was also the most skilled of the percussion- ists available. However, as standards of instruction and tuition increased, more able percussionists joined the orchestras and it was easier to turn over the job of organizing the section to them. Holland: I see. I’d imagine that it would player, Gervase de Peyer, reading a Simco: How long were you with the Lon- be very difficult, especially nowadays, magazine at his stand. Dorati would don Philharmonic? for the timpanist to run the section, get very upset with him, and then they Holland: Five-and-a-half years. As I what with all the complex contempo- would have to pacify him. That would finished, we did a six-and-a-half week rary music we have today. I remember take about half an hour, and then he’d Far East tour. I returned from the tour once, when I was still with the LPO, come back in, and we could resume re- to find that my wife had taken in a going to an interview for the principal cording. Of course, Gervase managed date with the London Symphony. I percussion job with the Philharmonia. to keep reading his magazine! went to the Royal Festival Hall, and as This was when James Bradshaw was I went up in the elevator, I ran into still the timpanist. So I said to the Simco: Did you go the LSO right after at- Ernest Fleischmann, who was the management, “Obviously when Mr. tending Trinity College? LSO’s General Manager. He asked if I Bradshaw retires I’d expect full control Holland: No. I started with the London would be interested in the job as prin- of the percussion section.” They re- Philharmonic. I played with them for cipal percussionist of the LSO. This acted with absolute shock and horror! several years before going over to the was about 1962. I said, “Um…possibly.” They thought I had a lot a nerve! London Symphony. I experienced the This was really how I felt! I felt very last years of Boult, then there was loyal to the previous principal percus- Simco: Referring back to the fact that Eduard van Beinum, and later John sion player, Charles Donaldson, who had when you started, there were only six- Pritchard, who later had the BBC been very good to me. I phoned Charles teen instruments listed in the Oxford Symphony. I will always remember up, and he advised me to take it. But he Dictionary of Music, how many would John Pritchard being the first person also advised me to hold out for certain you say there are today? to address the musicians in the orches- conditions, one of the most important be- Holland: Well, I am just working on a tra by their Christian name. Up until ing the fee—seven pounds per service, I video. I’d actually like to have the in- that point, one was always addressed think—and he also advised me to insist struments listed on some sort of CD- by the conductor according to the in- on being able to be released for other en- ROM, so that composers can actually strument one played, for example “Mr. gagements from time to time. I followed see and hear the instruments as they Clarinet” or “Mr. Timpani” and so on. all of his advice to the letter, and it stood write for them, and have a better idea Using Christian names in rehearsal me in very good stead. In those days, the of their capabilities. I think I am up to was unheard of. When John Pritchard principal percussionist was regarded as about two hundred by now. began to call us by our Christian a second-line principal, paid at the same names, I remember being quite taken level as the bass trombone—definitely Simco: Quite a difference indeed! Speak- aback. I also remember an incident in- not as a proper first-chair player. This ing of composers, you spoke yesterday volving Sir Malcolm Sargent and Den- was fairly common, as even in the States about working with Pierre Boulez. nis Clift, who was principal trumpet of and Europe at the time, the timpanist From the way you spoke of him, I the LSO at the time. Sir Malcolm kept was regarded as the only principal in the gather that you have a great deal of re- on calling Dennis “trumpet.” So Dennis percussion section. spect for him. Can you tell us a little held up the trumpet and said to the about him? trumpet, “Well, go on, answer him. Simco: At least in the USA, all that Holland: Pierre first came to the BBC in He’s speaking to you.” changed by the mid- to late-1960s, so the mid-sixties as a guest conductor,

PERCUSSIVE NOTES 70 APRIL 1997 and he created such an impact. His player left, Terry Emery, who was ab- orchestra collapsed with laughter, in- specialty was, of course, contemporary solutely brilliant, and such a versatile cluding Boulez, of course. music and music of our century. I can player to have in a section. So I said, remember doing a BBC recording of “If you’re interested in me coming, I’m Simco: Do you have any closing Webern’s Six Pieces for Orchestra with interested.” So, we talked, and of comments? the London Symphony, under a conduc- course it’s a contract orchestra. They Holland: I’ve thoroughly enjoyed my time tor other than Boulez, and people more work five days a week, and I only had in percussion, but I have to say that if or less played anything! to do seventy percent of that, which the repertoire had stayed the way it Boulez turned up at the BBC, and meant that I could do pretty much was in the 1950s, I’d have died of bore- not only did he want the right notes, whatever I liked. And it was Boulez as dom long ago! It is such a different he wanted the right rhythms in the chief conductor, which for me was won- world. There are so many percussion right places. Not only was it quite un- derful. David Johnson, who was princi- students going through the colleges precedented at the time, it seemed pal percussionist with the now, and although there aren’t that quite unreasonable. I remember a Philharmonia, came over as well, and many jobs, they still manage to find woodwind player saying something to Kevin Nutty, who was also with the many different outlets. At home there Pierre about a particular passage be- Philharmonia, came along too. are different percussion ensembles, ing impossible to play. Pierre said to and everybody seems to be having a him, “That is your problem. Next!” Simco: Who was the timpanist at the ball! Percussion seems to be heading I had heard so much about the way time? Was Eric Pritchard still there? towards an unending evolution. I see he rehearsed. He was used to rehears- Holland: No. Janos Kesztei started just as no signs of it stopping. ing the various instruments on their I came, and Gary Kettel. Gary had a own—the bass clarinet, the fourth great relationship with Boulez. I re- Simco: So, you would encourage the stu- horn, the vibraphone or whatever. And member once when Boulez stopped the dents to go for it, if they have the talent then there was the time I was asked to orchestra in rehearsal and said, “Gary, and ability? do one of the main keyboard parts of three bars after letter D, it is an F Holland: Yes. If they have the talent and Pli Selon Pli, which is a huge work. sharp.” Gary looked at the part, stood the ability, they are always going to This was about 1969. There were up and said, “Well spotted!” The whole make it. PN twenty rehearsals—twenty, mind you! And there were a couple of concerts in Paris, and a couple of recording ses- sions. It was very worthwhile financially, and I’d wanted to see what this chap was like since I had heard so much about him! I suppose the first five rehearsals were given over to the keyboard percussion and the harps, Vaughncraft and he’d rehearse each of us in turn. “I take now the vibraphone,” and that B & W meant the vibraphone alone! And that (remove keys) person had to be at least ninety-five percent there! As long as one did one’s homework and was conscientious, he could be the most patient man in the world. He is really a gentleman. But, if one was not prepared and was not con- scientious, then that person would have problems. I found that I enjoyed it very much, and then, moving on a year or so in time, I was getting a bit fed up with symphony orchestra life. I had already started with the London Sinfonietta, I was doing a lot of film work, and I was only doing about half of the work with the LSO. I had the feeling that they were not going to put up with this for much longer, and there was an opening in the BBC Symphony Orchestra. Boulez was just starting his tenure as chief conductor, and there was only one

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