Diálogo

Volume 5 Number 1 Article 10

2001

Diálogando

Beatrice Figueroa

Fannie Rushing

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Recommended Citation Figueroa, Beatrice and Rushing, Fannie (2001) "Diálogando," Diálogo: Vol. 5 : No. 1 , Article 10. Available at: https://via.library.depaul.edu/dialogo/vol5/iss1/10

This Interview is brought to you for free and open access by the Center for Latino Research at Via Sapientiae. It has been accepted for inclusion in Diálogo by an authorized editor of Via Sapientiae. For more information, please contact [email protected]. Dialogando A DIALOGUE WITH

PROFESSOR FANNIE T. RUSHING By Beatrice Figueroa

Fannie Rushing earned her doctorate in History at the This is a conversation with commentaries about the article, "Afro-Cubans in Cuban Society: Past Present and Future" (see University of Chicago. The title of her dissertation work is Defendiendo Lo Nuestro). The conversation also addresses the expanding historicalcritical perspectives of social relations in Cabildos de Nación, Sociedades de la Raza de Color: Afro- the .

Cuban Participation in Slave Emancipation and Cuban Beatrice Figueroa: You read the summary and symposium notes Independence 1865-1895. Professor Rushing teaches courses of the Afro-Cuban Conference and mentioned a concern in attributing the idea of racial equality to Marti and Maceo. Would you like to elaborate? at DePaul University; course titles are “The African Diaspora FANNIE RUSHING: Yes, because to reduce the fight for social in Latin America, 1492-1895", "Social and Political Movements equality to Maceo and Marti ignores the fact that the first people to be concerned with freedom and social equality were the slaves and free people of color in . The slaves in Latin America", "The African Diaspora in Latin America, who began the first slave rebellion in Cuba in 1533 initiated a tradition of fighting for freedom and equality. A tradition 1895-1995. "Class, Race and Power in Brazil". carried on by Nicolas Morales, Jose Antonio Aponte and many slaves and free people of color who fought for social equality Dr. Rushing currently holds the honor of Visiting Scholar at long before Maceo and Marti.

DePaul University in the Center for the History and Culture of BF: You have mentioned the African Diaspora in other parts the Black Diaspora. She recently presented her work titled, of the Caribbean; can you say more about this? FR: The African Diaspora is important throughout Latin "Identity in the Diaspora: A Tale of Two Cities, Havana and America but it is often thought of only in relation to slavery. While slavery was the major venue through which Africans Chicago." She is a frequent Book Reviewer for the Hispanic came to Latin America not all did so in that way. When you look at African slavery in Latin America you have a skewed American Historical Review and has presented at a number of understanding of the significance of the presence of Africans and their descendants. For example, for many years it was said conferences about Afro-Cubans in Nineteenth Century Cuba. that slavery was not important in ; therefore, you did not have a large African presence and it was confined to only small areas of the country. In 1830, there were only 34,240 slaves (10.6% of the total population). However, there were 127,287 free people of African descent (39.3% of the total population). Slaves and free people of African descent then accounted for 49.9% of the population. I do not need to comment on the possible origins of the population considered to be "w hite" especially after it became possible to buy "certificates of whiteness" from the financially troubled Spanish colonial government. It is important that we remember that throughout the long period of slavery in Latin America there were free people of African descent. They were well aware that freedom meant nothing without equality. BF : Also in a previous conversation, you made reference to José history continues to be marginalized. Do you have any Aponte and the emancipation and independence of Cubans. comments or thoughts about what has evolved or how How significant was his contribution? history has been expanded in Cuba? What impact does it FR: In Cuba, the free population of African descendants many have today? of them small landowners, were opposed to slavery. They did FR: I try not to go too far into this since my work is primarily everything they could to prevent its further development. about the 19th century. The Cuban Revolution has provided They fought as allies with the slaves to end slavery. José access to equality that was unprecedented in Cuba before the Antonio Aponte organized the largest slave conspiracy in revolution. Afro-Cubans gained access to education they Cuba. However, Aponte was not a slave, and not only was he never had before. For the first time, they gained entry into free, he was a skilled free man. He incorporated not only many professions that had been closed to them. The Cuban slaves, but also free people of African descent throughout the Revolution determined that the poorest people in the society island. When the uprising was to take place, he even made should have new and better housing before anyone else. This contact with leaders of the new Haitian government for aid was a tremendous benefit to Afro-Cubans since they were a and arms. Not only did he want freedom and equality for the large percentage of the poorest. As a result of the revolution, slaves but he was also committed to the independence of many people of African descent have better housing than Cuba from . These were linked and interrelated goals in they have ever had. The Cuban Revolution's Literacy the conspiracy in 1811. As you can see, Marti and Maceo picked Campaign has virtually eliminated illiteracy that was very high up a torch already lit for abolition, independence and equality. among Afro-Cubans as part of the legacy of racial slavery. Certainly, Afro-Cubans, poor people of Latin America and the world have benefited from the free healthcare system BF: When you say the free people, do you mean the free established by the Cuban Revolution. We hear a lot in this African community? country about the presence of Cuban troops fighting in FR: In the Afro-Cuban communities there were three Angola against the then-minority government of South Africa categories of people who were free. There were those who backed by the Portuguese colonial government. We do not were never enslaved, people who achieved their freedom in hear that the Cuban government has taken many orphans of various ways during slavery such as self-emancipation through that long war, brought them to Cuba and educated them from escape, coartación, a process of purchasing freedom from an elementary through post secondary schools. Those children owner, as a reward for some extraordinary service or can now return to Angola and fill the crucial need for skilled manumission at the death of an owner and an emancipado. professionals to aid the reconstruction of the country caused Emancipados were people who were freed by Britain because by the devastation of Portuguese colonialism and the hard of their enslavement by Spain after the date agreed upon by fought war for independence. The Cuban Revolution has Spain and Britain for the ending of the slave trade. For most unquestionably paid a debt owed to people of African people in the Afro-Cuban community there was a link descent whose ancestors provided the labor that made Cuba between slavery and independence because they saw Spain as one of the wealthiest societies in the Caribbean. The Cuban the country that initiated, fostered and maintained slavery. Revolution has addressed and provided access to They saw the best hope for eliminating slavery as the creation socioeconomic equality. What has not been resolved and takes of an independent Cuba. more years than the duration of the revolution is the elimination of racist ideology that still informs the thinking of people throughout the society. Eliminating racism is very difficult because it is so embedded in all the ideological BF: EarlyBF: in the Fall Quarter you gave a lecture about "Identity structures. That is a battle that still has to be fought. At first, In The Diaspora: A Tale of Two Cities, Havana and Chicago." when the Cuban Government was trying to consolidate the You discussed regions in Cuba and how the eastern part had revolution and build a unified revolutionary state, they were similar views to the abolitionists in the United States. You gave concerned about issues that might prove divisive. They were an example of Abraham Lincoln—mentioning he was very fearful about addressing questions of "race." It is antislavery, but not pro-equality. Is this what you are referring something they still have to do. Unfortunately, given all the to when describing the difference of activities toward freedom? external constraints such as living within the sights of United FR: Yes, and in the case of the two portions of Cuba—Oriente States' Cold War policy, the United States' Embargo against (the East) and El Occidente (the West). In the East there were Cuba and the collapse of the Soviet Union—questions of small plantations, small planters and many free Afro-Cuban survival take precedence. landowners that were antislavery and pro-equality. However, many of the smaller planters were antislavery because slavery disadvantaged them greatly, but they were not pro-equality. BF: You mentioned two particular points about the paper and They were very fearful of alienating the large planters in the we discussed the first—Aponte and expanding the impetus of West by indicating that they favored social equality or freedom and equality. Did you want to discuss other aspects political/economic equality. Of course, this is why much of the of the Afro-Cuban conference? strategy for winning the war failed. FR: Although it is very important to talk about music and religion because they are major Afro-Cuban contributions to Cuba's distinctive identity, what continues to be lacking is any BF: Do you have any thoughts or comments about the serious attention to other major contributions of Afro-Cubans activism from people of African descent? I am particularly to Cuban identity. One of those contributions has to be the interested in the activism that relates to expanding the role of Afro-Cubans in fighting for independence and historical perspective—not only in Cuba—but also in other developing the idea of an independent Cuban nation. Long parts of Latin America and the Caribbean. So much of the before Saco, the Euro-Cuban patriot credited with being the father of Cubanidad, there was Aponte. Someone asked me if touches us all. Just immigration laws and treatment of in Cuba, as in other Latin American countries. Hispanidad was immigrants are issues for everyone who believes in social important. Cuba is a country where Hispanidad is the least justice. The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, for some, developed. In Cuba the movement for independence from offered provision of access to voting rights for African- Spain developed over many years. The first war for Americans in the South of the United States, but also the independence was declared in 1868. By the time opening and provision of access to women and other independence came in 1898, some sectors within Cuba had communities of color that had previously been excluded from been at war for thirty years. During this thirty years of fighting U.S. society. A belief in human dignity and a commitment to for independence from Spain, a very strong Antillean identity social justice for me has to provide the values that drive my developed. Central to that development were the populations work inside and outside the academy. I am not nor do I want of African descent. They were really some of the first people to be value free. I have a responsibility to state what those within Cuba to see the importance of gaining independence values are but I do not want to pretend, as many do, that their from Spain because they connected their enslavement with values do not determine what they see and do. As an African Spain. When we want to understand Cubanidad we need to American woman within the academy I have a commitment to look for its roots within the Afro-Cuban community. an agenda that speaks to inclusion and not exclusion and toward relationship not isolation. One of my goals in my research and in my teaching is to explore the ways in which BF: I would like to address another topic. In reference to the human social histories evolve in the context of others, Native aforementioned lecture on "Identity in the Diaspora: A Tale of Americans, African Americans, European Americans, Latin Two Cities, Havana and Chicago"; I appreciated hearing you Americans and Asian Americans. speak about the value-driven paradigm. You mentioned there was criticism for being emotive in your scholarly work. Your passion was evident when you stated "my value-driven paradigm came once I heard the voices that were not heard." We spoke about your political activism and how from it emanated your value-driven paradigm. You thought A s an A frican picketing the lunch counter in Woolworth and Walgreen's and having the lines become longer would solve the problems. Then you realized the need for a Freedom Democratic Party to form in Mississippi. Soon after you A m e r i c a n realized it went beyond that—it's about Africans and African Americans in other parts of the world. Can you please tell me more about this? FR: One of the things that starts to happen when you are w om an w ithin involved in social movements over time is that you start to see relationships. One of the things that is wrong with the academy in North America and much of its version of the nineteenth century scientific method is that it teaches us to look at things in isolation. We take things apart to study them the academ y I in isolation but then we forget to put them back together. As a result of this notion of studying things in isolation, we think we can study United States history without understanding the histories of Native Americans, African Americans, Latin have a com m itm ent to Americans or Asian Americans and vice versa. For my own thinking it has been very important to understand the relationships of parts to the whole. Gradually, I came to understand that no matter how profound your understanding an agenda that speaks of isolated phenomena was, unless you understood how it was related to other things you did not realize its full importance. Understanding relationships and linkages are threats to structures of power and oppression. Oppressive to inclusion and not systems can and do accommodate the inclusion of those with an elite status from oppressed groups. This is particularly true when including them precludes their own understanding of their relationship to other parts of the system. It fosters the belief that the inclusion of the few has solved the problems of exclusion and tow ard the many. If we are content to understand the issues of one community well without understanding how those issues relate to other communities, oppressive systems can and do remain in control. Let us take the issue of immigration; for relationship not isolation. some this is a Latino issue. Yet, when you have a situation like the one in New York where the immigrant (Amadou Diallo) was shot 47 times or some astronomical figure and he was an African, you can see immigration is not just a Latino issue. It