Voices from the Past

The Indian Placement Program of Idaho, 1965

Interviewees: Deanna Cook, Ray and Nola Gallup, and Mary Miller

May 6, 1984

Tape #125

Oral Interview conducted by Harold Forbush

Transcribed by: Tia Aucoin February 2008 Edited by: Jeremy Sant February 2009

Brigham Young University- Idaho

Harold Forbush: Side one of tape one, Oral History of the Upper Snake River Valley of Idaho. This tape or tapes will be referred to as the Indian Placement Program in the Counties of Jefferson, Madison, and Freemont Counties, between 1964 and 1984, a 20 year period. As a preliminary statement to this oral history research, I have received from Mr. Clarence E. Tuttle, a few pages of a Master’s Thesis filed with the church wide Indian Placement Program in the files there in Salt Lake City. I’m asking my wife Florence Forbush to read the paper prepared and received through Mr. Tuttle.

Florence Forbush: In Idaho [agency?] Elder Kimball and Mr. Bishop met on January 25, 1964 with Mr. Charles Dunn who was the stake president, Mr. David Ricks, President of West Boise Stake, and Attorney A. Z. Reed Millar, also of Boise at this time. Discussion was held concerning the possibility of offering the opportunities of the program to both the Indian students of Idaho and the non-Indian foster homes. The possibilities were discussed of making the program available to some Indian students who would be placed in Utah during the school year of 1964 and ‘65, and to foster parents during the school year of ‘65 and ‘66. The group unanimously agreed that the Indian children sorely needed the benefit of such a program and that non-Indian members of the church in Idaho would support a program of this nature. Foot note 29: The stake presidents express the desire to further explore with their stake members and the possibility of making the program in Idaho a reality and Mr. Millar agreed to explore with the Idaho State Department of Child Welfare and their attitudes concerning the possibility of such a program. He also provided the program director with a copy of the Idaho law regulations concerning child placement agency to assist in preparing for any agency, but note number 30. Twenty-eight reports to the Indian Committee of proposed expansion ‘67 and ‘68 to 1971 and ‘72 by the Indian Student Placement Program of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City in the files of the program. In 29, the minutes of the meeting held January 25, 1964 in Boise, Idaho and files of the Indian Student Placement Program, and 30 it’s the same.

The Indian Committee met April 6, 1964 in Salt Lake City with all of the Idaho Stake presidents. At this time the stake presidents submitted a positive report concerning the proposal suggested at the earlier meeting. The program was explained and then a vote of acceptance was requested concerning the placement of the Idaho students in homes in the state of Idaho. The voting was unanimous upon approval of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. Foot note 31: The plan for beginning the program of school year ‘65 and ‘66 was also unanimously approved. During the summer of 1964 Mr. Bishop and Mr. Millar, legal counselor for the Idaho agency, met with Mr. Bill Childs, commissioner of the public assistance. Mr. Child expressed enthusiasm for the program and offered his support in getting it established. At this same time, Mr. Millar was drafting articles of incorporation policies and procedures and bylaws which would be necessary to obtain a license to guide Mr. Millar. The Indian Committee decided the following: One, Provo will submit its application seeking approval as a domestic corporation. Two, the Board of [inaudible] will include each of the stake presidents in Idaho, plus a medical advisor and an attorney. Three, an executive board will be appointed consisting of selected members of the Board of Directors who reside in the proximity of the agency office. Four, the name of the agency is to be Idaho Indian

Student Placement Program. Five, the central office will be in Pocatello, Idaho; Idaho Falls area, (pause) and most likely Idaho Falls. The footnote [30 minutes?] this meeting called by the church Indian committee concerning the expansion of Indian Student Placement Program into Idaho April 6, 1964, Salt Lake City, Utah in the files of the program. Number six, the program will begin by placing the LDS Indian students from their reservation in and surrounding Idaho in the LDS foster homes with Idaho boarders. Seven, one director, case worker, one additional case worker, and a secretary will be employed to place from 75 to 100 children in the Southeastern portion of Idaho. This area will range from the Utah border to the Rexburg area. Expansion of the staff and students will be made when and where it is deemed advisable. Eight, responsibilities and duties of the Board of Directors will be as defined in the Idaho Department of Public Assistance manual entitled, Children’s Agency and the Children’s Institutions. Nine, there shall be a clause which will allow for the inclusion of other programs which deem advisable.

Footnote 32: In January of 1965 an executive Board of Directors was appointed to serve in behalf of the program with Mr. Irwin Wirkus, President of East Idaho Falls Stake. Serving as Chairman of the Board, Mr. Z. Reed Millar was appointed as legal advisor and Dr. Merrill Packer, medical advisor. Thirty-three footnote: At a meeting in Idaho Falls on February 19, 1965 the Board was introduced to Mr. Clearance Tuttle, a newly appointed director of the Idaho agency. This group with the program director decided the following: Mr. Tuttle, who would work from the office in Idaho Falls and other case workers would be assigned. And footnote: Letter to Z. Reed Millar from Clarence R. Bishop, Program Director of Salt Lake City, Utah, December 17, 1964 in [involves the?] Indian Student Placement Program. Thirty-three: Report of the meeting of Idaho Falls with the executive board of the Idaho Board of Directors for the Indian Students Placement Program, February 19, 1965 [involved in the program?].

Mr. Tuttle’s case log will be placed in the stakes between Shelly and Rigby and the other case log will be confined as much as possible to the stakes in the Pocatello area. Footnote 34: April of the same year Mr. William S. Bush was transferred from the Utah agency into the Pocatello area. In May a program office was opened at 131 Higby in Idaho Falls. Preparation continues throughout the summer during the last week of August. One hundred and three students from the North central, northwestern states arrived. The students received physical examinations at the church-owned hospital at Idaho Falls and were placed, as planned, throughout the Idaho Falls and Pocatello area. Footnote 35: During the summer of 1966, Mr. Mark Ricks was employed to supervise a case log in the Twin Falls area, bringing the number of districts in Idaho to three for the school year of ‘66 and ‘67. Again in August the children were processed through the hospital in Idaho Falls with 183 students being processed and placed throughout the three districts. Footnote 36: At this time the program is making preparations for two new placement districts in Idaho for school year ‘67 and ‘68. One of these districts is to be in the Boise area and one in the Preston Soda Springs area. Footnote 37: (Tape cuts out) Footnote 34 is above 35, report to the Indian Committee of Student Enrollment in the school year of ‘65 and ‘66. [The Indian?] Student Placement Program in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah in the files of the program. Thirty-

3 six: Report to Indian Committee of the Student enrollment in the school year ‘66 and ‘67 by the Indian Student Placement Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City, Utah in files of the program. Thirty-seven: Report of the Indian Committee of the proposed expansion ‘67 and ‘68 to 1971-72 by the Indian Student Placement program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Salt lake City, Utah in the files in the program.

HF: We’re met this Sunday afternoon, the 6th of May 1984, in the 4th ward Relief Society room about 4:15 P.M. With us in a circle, as it were, to contribute to the primary subject the Indian Placement Program in the counties of Fremont, Jefferson, and Madison here in Eastern Idaho. Kind of a part of the Idaho Falls district as originally established as a district through the LDS Social Services for this Indian Placement Program. And Mrs. Deanna CoOkay is present, Mrs. Nola Gallup, and Ray -- husband and wife are present -- and they have a guest who has been with the Indian Placement Program, a Mrs. Jessen from Ashton is expected to arrive momentarily. Now, I’m going to ask in turn some questions of a personal nature. Deanna CoOkay, will you state a little something about your own background, you and your husband, where you live, and then end it up with a statement when you first were initiated to the Indian Placement Program.

Deanna CoOkay: Okay, I’m Deanna CoOkay. I live in Rigby. I have been involved with the program probably six years and we had a little Indian girl live with us for four years. When I first became involved with the program was long before I was even married down in Salt Lake City when the program first came into, probably, being. I was homesick. I went and visited my good bishop and he had a large family, but he had a kind heart and toOkay in two Lamanite students. And I watched those Lamanite students with that wonderful bishop and his wife and I thought -- someday I’m going to do this myself -- and that’s been on my mind all these years.

HF: Your husband has been helpful and supportive of that desire?

DC: Yes. I might mention one other thing that kinda makes me feel like I belong in this program. In my patriarchal blessing it tells me that I will be called upon to do a great work. I had my patriarchal blessing when I was 16 years old and I wondered in that clause what great work I could ever do. And all at once it hit me that I am to be working with the Lamanite program, not that I will do a great work, but that the work is great and that is what I am supposed to do.

HF: Okay, thank you. Nola Gallup, what is your maiden name Nola?

Nola Gallup: Olive.

HF: Okay. And now in that same responsive way would you share a little something about where you live, your husband, your family and how you got involved with the program?

NG: We lived here in Rexburg when we first became involved and then we moved to Hibbard, and that’s about three miles from Rexburg. I think that the first thing why I became involved is because of my love for children. When we lived in Rexburg 2nd ward we were asked to take a Lamanite girl, she was eight, who was having a few problems. And we toOkay her -- oh I would say about in January -- and really learned to love her, she was a beautiful little girl. She was a Ute Indian from around the vernal area in Utah. We got along fine with her and we didn’t have a child that age so she wasn’t placed with us the following year, she was placed with another family. She would come back to us; they asked us to take good care of her, as this family would go out of town, we would take care of her. And she would go and write notes to us; we’d find notes all over the house. I think a lot of Lamanites do this; they express themselves this way because it’s hard for them to express themselves verbally. Then about, I don’t know if it was the following year or maybe two years later, we applied for one and we received one. She was also from Utah, a very, very, very shy little girl, and very homesick. Her mother came up one day and, her mother must’ve been a little lady in her 70’s, and she toOkay her home with her. Then we also received a boy about a year after that whose family moved to Arizona and we had him about, from January on. This is when we lived in Hibbert. Since then we’ve just been able to…there were very few years we haven’t had on.

HF: You presently have a youngster?

NG: Two. We have two now.

HF: Two boys?

NG: No. We have a boy, a nine year old, a nine year old boy and a 13 year old girl.

HF: Do you find that there’s much, oh, do they represent the same tribal group?

NG: No, they’re from South Dakota and they are Sioux Indians.

HF: Both of them are Sioux?

NG: Um-hm.

HF: But they come from different families? They aren’t brother and sister, are they?

NG: No, they’re different families.

HF: Do you find much difference in the two in their personality and characteristics?

NG: No, I think the personality and the characteristics of most of the Indians are the same. They are quite quiet, quite shy. This little girl that we have now, we’ve had her for four years, we’ve had her since she was eight. One year she stayed home off the

5 program and she is just like any other little girl now. She’s really quite outspOkayen and she’s just more, has adapted herself to the white man’s world.

HF: Bro. Gallup, do you have any comment to add to what your wife has said?

Ray Gallup: She’s covered it pretty good. We’ve been involved in it one way or the other. Most of the one’s we’ve toOkay were those in the middle of the year when others had trouble the first few; and now we’ve had our own once we’ve started here. I know that it’s a great program that needs to be, these young people need to be helped. We’ve had Mary for, what, from about March through May one year. And that’s how we became acquainted with Mary because that was one of her bad years, but it ended up pretty good we thought. We really enjoyed her in our home.

HF: I want Mary to share with us some things a little later on. You won’t be embarrassed if we talk about you and your people?

Mary Miller: No.

HF: As we go along some things may be rather frank. Now, going back to Mrs. CoOkay, will you relate, first of all, an experience that you had on the -- I think it was the South Dakota reservation – wherein, the youngsters were boarding a bus and getting ready to leave. If you can do this, as you would like, I think it would be an image that I’d like to preserve on the tape. Let’s not get too teary eyed about all these things.

DC: It’s hard for me to do, because it’s very touching. My husband and I had the opportunity of going up to be chaperones when they bring the kids back. It was really a great experience.

DC: When was this and where?

DC: This was in August and we left right at 5:00 in the morning from the Teton Stage Line and we went right up and into the…is it Bellfuge? We stayed there that night and then the next day we got up and went on into Cherry Creek. From Cherry Creek we went into Eagle View, where Mary’s from.

HF: Now, where is this?

DC: In South Dakota. And what reservation is it, Mary?

MM: The Cheyenne River Sioux.

DC: The Cheyenne River Sioux Indian Reservation.

HF: Okay.

DC: Okay? I’m sure the incident that you probably want is… two things really impress me. One is that Cherry Creek, when we first got there, the little chapel, we couldn’t find it, but we loOkayed up on the hill and we figured that must be the chapel. It’s on the hill, you know, loOkaying down the valley? And as we got up there, there was two boys in there playing basketball, two Indian boys. One was ready to come, very eagerly ready to come. That was at 1:30 and we didn’t leave till 5, and at the time I got acquainted with Bro. Washburn. He was the branch president there and a Lamanite. And as we were getting closer to the time for the people, that the kids would start boarding the bus; I went outside and loOkayed down the hill, and I don’t know where all these people came from, but they were just coming up that hill. And it was just overwhelming to see these beautiful, beautiful people coming up the hill. And they didn’t, none of them were in cars. They just, you know, it was a hot day, of course, and as far as getting outside it gets warm. But anyway, they walked up the hill and we had a very choice meeting. Bro. Washburn is a very dynamic person, he loves all of them and you could tell it. And as we went to…

HF: Now, is he a, he was the branch…

DC: President.

HF: President.

DC: Yeah.

HF: And was he…

DC: He’s a Lamanite.

HF: A Lamanite.

DC: He’s an Indian. Uh-huh.

HF: Okay.

DC: I got a chance to talk to, mingle through the crowd and talk to some of the ones that were going on, you know, the parents. I asked one mom I said, “How can you possibly let your child, your children go out on this?” I mean, I can’t stand the thought of leaving, putting my kids, and being away from them for nine months. She said, “This is the only program I cannot stand the thoughts of my children being on the reservation [?] no good. I want them in a white man’s world where the influence of the church is there.” And this was her great thought, I thought. She said, “It’s hard.” She said, “You’ll see a lot of tears,” which I did.

HF: And you were talking to a young mother and who was gonna part with her child.

DC: Uh-huh. We have one down in our area down in Rigby.

HF: Was she well-dressed? Was she…

DC: Just the av- yeah. I really didn’t see any shabby loOkaying little children on that bus. They were all well dressed. I’m not sure that their parents probably sacrificed a little bit to get them clothes. Because you know, they don’t wanna send them out shabby, they really don’t. Some of them don’t have the means, but I never did see a shabby one on that bus. Did you, Mary?

MM: No.

DC: They were all just, I thought really well dressed. But anyway, as we started boarding the kids on the bus the tears started coming -- and it’s really hard because I’m really an emotional person to handle it -- but I thought I had to be big and brave. Bro. Washburn had put them on the, he’d read their name and he’d clap, you know, and get real excited for them and all the Indian people would clap. The tears would, the mothers were crying, the grandma’s were crying, this was really hard; and it just gave me an understanding, you know. Sometimes we don’t think that the Indian people have feelings, but they do. And I thought and I know they have feelings. It’s hard for them to part with their children; just like it’s hard for us to part when they go back.

HF: Now were the fathers there to support their wives?

DC: There were a lot of men there. I wouldn’t say, I never saw a couple together, you know, I don’t know that part, but there were men there. Bro. Washburn and his wife, by the way, they did give us sack lunches for the kids too so we could feed them on the bus. But I never saw a husband and wife standing there together, so I couldn’t tell you that part. Anyways, as we got ‘em all loaded on the bus, we started out the driveway; Bro. Washburn, I heard him say, “Let’s give them all a great big clap.” And they clapped and clapped and clapped. And I loOkayed back and I could see all these people, tears streaming down their faces, but yet they were excited to have their children go. Then we went on in to Eagle Butte and it was much the same way. We got the kids boarded, there was tears. I had to make a phone call, so I got the kids all on the bus and got off the bus. As I got off the bus there was two Indian ladies crying and I don’t’ know who they were. They were older ladies, I would presume grandmas. And they were embracing each other and crying, and I thought -- I can’t let this slide by. So I walked over to them and I put myself right in between them and I put my arms around them and hugged them as tight as I could. I said, “I know this is hard for you to do, but I promise you that we will take as good care of your children as best as we can. And we’ll love them and we’ll give them the care that they need, and I promise you they’ll have foster families waiting to love them and give them the same treatment. And they’ll be better off for coming out of here.” And they in turn hugged me back and said, “Thank you. That’s all we needed to hear.” And that was a very touching experience for me. Coming on the bus we had a lot of comforting to do. These children, when they got through the mountains like Mary said, they get homesick and they realize they’re going away.

HF: How many different stops or branches did you?...

DC: That was the only two.

HF: The two different branches.

DC: Uh-huh.

HF: And that was from that South Dakota Sioux reservation?

DC: Uh-huh.

HF: Now, Nola…first of all, thank you, Deanna, for that description of them parting from the reservation. Now, Nola, will you share with us your first impressions, that first impact you had in welcoming those youngsters at the gathering place or the dispensing place of Idaho Falls, where you and Ray, I suppose, over there to pick up, maybe your first or some Indian student you met for the first time.

NG: We had done this many times. And as we have gone down, I guess we expected when we would see Delina that we would, that she would, kinda run up to us, you know, but I didn’t see any Lamanites doing this, they, kinda, still hold back. I guess it’s maybe this shyness that they have and it was, to me, it was my honest feeling is that they were kind of…it was kind of a sad situation to me, I loOkayed and I saw all of these Lamanites sitting against the walls and, I guess, that these were ones that weren’t placed yet and they would loOkay up at you with their little eyes and -- “are you the one that’s gonna take me?” You can just tell what they are thinking and they were frightened. I could tell that they were kinda frightened. I found one little boy that’s in my area and he was sitting under the coats and his name is Dennis and he’s just a little fellow. He was sitting there under the coats and he had a great big hat on and we couldn’t even find him. We were loOkaying, and loOkaying, and loOkaying and here he was under this hat and I said, “Dennis is that you?” And he loOkayed up at me, you know, and then they came…they’re just, there’s just a feeling of leeriness, I think, with them.

The one little boy that we picked up last year, I was really surprised…they had it very organized last year; they had us stand in certain sections and as the children got off the bus they’d call their name and they knew who that child was gonna go with. And they called our names and this little boy got off the bus and he came up to us, and just a little fellow, and he says -- and my little boy was standing next to us -- and they introduced him to us and his name is Jeremy. I says, “Jeremy, this is Michael.” And I expected my boy to say, “Hi, Jeremy;” and Jeremy loOkayed up and his little round face, his little moon face on, just a big grin, and he says, “Hi Michael!” And here it was the Lamanite that was more welcoming my son than the other way around. I have two little short letters here that I’d like to read to you that Dolores sent out to me, and this is my little girl when we got her at eight years old. This is written on a piece of, it’s just a piece of an envelope, and it showed me the truth of what Deanna has said on how the Lamanites feel about their children. I’ve heard many times that the Lamanite’s people, back there, send

9 their children out here just so that they don’t have to take care of them. And I know that this isn’t true. And it says:

Dear Mrs. Gallup:

Please call me when Delina arrives at your home because it will make me feel a lot better. Please love my little girl and treat her right. This is the first time she is away from her family. If she ever needs something please let me know. Also, please send me your address.

Now that was a first year. And the next year, the second year I had her, she wrote:

Dear Nola:

I am very happy for Delina that she is willing to go back to school in Idaho. It hurts for me to see her go, but I want the best for my girl. I know she can learn a lot being on the Placement Program. Please take good care of her for me. Call me as soon as she gets there. Thanks again for wanting her back into your home.

And this is very touching to me because I know how much that mother loves her little girl. Now that we’ve had her for four years it’s hard for us, too, because her mother is really lonely for her and we kinda like her to stay home this year. But Ray and I are going to go out in June out to the reservation and see if we can talk to her mother and the parents of the little boy that we have.

HF: Now, let’s ask the question, which would bring out the policy of the LDS Church in its program of the Indian Placement Program, which as I understand it, was begun by the church about 1964. The Program in this area actually became operative in the fall of ‘65. So ‘65 and ‘66 would be the first year in the Idaho area, ground work had been laid legally and socially; and through the authority and approval, unanimous approval of the stakes and the idea, I guess, was to place member Indian students…did they have to be eight years of age?

NG: Yes.

HF: Okay. That was necessary, wasn’t it?

NG: They baptized them.

HF: They had to be baptized members of the LDS Church and they would be placed here with a non-Indian family, who’s also members of the church. Is that standard procedure?

NG: Yes.

HF: Okay. And the natural birth parents, or parents; I suppose would give some type of a consent, whether it was in writing or not. Do you know how they arranged it on the reservation as to who would go and how this was done? Do you know any of the mechanics of that, either one of you?

NG: Mary does.

HF: Okay. Mary, we’ll call on you then, now.

MM: Okay.

HF: Now this is Mary…

HF and MM (together): Miller.

HF: Mary, before you answer that question, let me just ask you a question or two. Where were you born and when?

MM: Well, I was born in a car (Laughs) and I was born in 1963, but after I was born in the car I was rushed to McGotham Hospital and…

HF: Is that one the Sioux reservation?

MM: No, it’s off the reservation. But it’s in the state of South Dakota.

HF: Okay. Now your birthparents were both Indians?

MM: My mother is a Cheyenne or Sioux, she’s a Cheyenne and Sioux; and my father has white in him and he has some Sioux in him.

HF: Okay, now, you told me when you were born; and tell me how you came to get on the program.

MM: I was…my mother was baptized into the church along with my older brothers and sisters, and the Elders asked my mother if…had told my mother about the program, and so my older brothers and sisters, a few of them, came out, one of them did. And I’d always wanted to come out because she’d gone out. Just to see what it was like.

HF: Your own mother had?

MM: Huh?

HF: Your mother had?

MM: No, my older sister had.

HF: Oh, your older sister, Okay.

MM: Yeah.

HF: Alright.

MM: When I was eight years old my mother didn’t wanna send me because she was, I was too young and she’d already sent one daughter out. So I stayed home a year, but when I was nine I wanted to go out; so my mother said, asked the missionaries if it was Okay. And I was baptized a member of the church when I was eight. I waited a year and then the social worker had to come out and interview me. And when he came out, he asked me about myself and his name was Vern Pierson. And he came from Idaho, he was living in Idaho Falls with the LDS Social Services and he’d come out to South Dakota to interview all the kids who had applied to go on the Placement Program. And he asked me what my name was and about myself, and a little bit about myself, and asked me if I wanted to come on the Placement Program and why. We talked for a while and he asked me if I knew what the gospel was and if I had a testimony of the gospel. And after we talked for a while, applications had to be filled out and my birth certificate had to be…copy had to be given to him. My blood degree, everything, my name, my birth date, any medical history had to be filled out. And there was a paper that my mother had to sign saying that it’s Okay for me to come out on the Placement Program.

HF: Very good. Now, Nola or Deanna, do either one of you have any specific questions as it relates to this procedure of Mary. Either one of you have any questions, or Ray? Anyone have any questions of her pertaining to this procedure?

DC: Every year, now it’s twice a year, that the case worker from here goes out and recruits. Then they are interviewed, the children are interviewed back there, by a worker back there. Now let’s see, Rex Johns will go out and, I suppose that he takes the worker back there that works along with the two, because Vern Pierson is back there now and I know that he gets the children ready, too. They are sent applications.

HF: Is Vern Pierson, who was a formal leader here, is he employed by the church to work back on that…

NG or DC or MM: Yes.

HF: Which reservation? Or all reservations?

MM: He’s not on a reservation. He’s in the town, city of Rapid City, South Dakota and that’s the head, kind of like, the head quarters of the Placement programs as it is the mission headquarters and everything.

NG: And he does South Dakota, and Paul Garrett is back there and does North Dakota?

DC: Paul Garrett used to be here in Idaho Falls area, too; and then they transferred him.

HF: Now how many reservations have participated in the Indian program from those two states?

MM: Every reservation up there, I think.

HF: Every one. And there are several, I guess, aren’t there?

MM: Uh-huh.

NG or DC: From South Dakota.

HF: From South Dakota and North Dakota.

MM: Yes. Both the states have participated both reserva—all the reservations in both states have participated in the program.

HF: Have participated in the Indian Placement Program.

NG: Mary, how many -- this is probably way out in left base -- but do you have any idea how many reservations there are? This is new to me; I didn’t know there was so many reservations.

MM: There’s a Standing Rock Reservations, there’s the Shining River Reservation, there’s a Pine Ridge Reservation, and there’s, I’d say maybe five or six different reservations.

DC: Just in South Dakota alone.

NG: Including north, too.

MM: Including north.

HF: Okay, now, to Deanna and Nola; have you had children in the program from, we’ll say, the southwest and some of those reservations?

DC: Well, our own little girl, we had for four years was from Riverton, Wyoming on the Wind River Reservation and she was a Crow Sioux. She left, and we got her when she was ten, and she left in the middle of her eighth grade year due to; well, I’ve said they run free out there on the reservation and she could not stand rules and regulations anymore. She had to go try a little bit of freedom and many times she’s written to us and said that’s the worst mistake she ever made; but we can’t do anything about that, except cry a lot.

HF: Did you have communication with her?

DC: Yes. Her birthday was March 31; I had sent her a family picture of us in a birthday card. I sent an address, it came back. I had to resend it to another address; I’m hoping it gets to her. As of now I don’t know where she is, it’s kind of a sickening feeling. But I told her to call us. Our daughter graduates from high school the 23rd and that was her goal to come out for Gina’s graduation; and I’m hoping that she will come but I don’t know. But uh-

HF: [accidentally interrupting DC] Nola—excuse me.

DC: I wanted to tell ya, back to what Nola was saying how they write little letters. When we had Rob and I came home from a meeting one night, there was a little note placed on my pillow; and it said, “Dear Mom, thank you for the earrings. I love them. I love being here. I will be glad when you yell at me like you do your own kids. Then I will know you love me.” [Everyone laughs] And I’ve thought many times, you know, we treated, probably; at first we treated her like a guest, rather than a member of the family. And she thought being yelled at and being disciplined was part of love, which it is. But she needed that because she doesn’t get that out there.

HF: Now Nola, thank you (toward DC) and Nola, have you had any contact with these other reservations? Hopi, Navajo, any of those?

NG: We have…the Navajo reservation, some children from the Navajo reservation here in Rexburg, they’re from Arizona. We’ve also had a, well I can’t think of what he was, we had an Indian in our home from the state of Washington; and then the ones from Utah that we’ve had, Ute Indians.

DC: We had, down in the Rigby area, Elder Lee’s nephew, Dean Begay. And he is a Ute.

MM or DC: Or is he a Navajo?

NG: I think he’s a Ute.

DC: Is he a Navaho?

DC or MM or NG: They also have a nephew in St. Anthony, havn’t they?

DC or MM or NG: Could be. I’m not really sure.

MM or NG: Last year I know that my sister, my niece from South Dakota, who is on the reservation; they sent her down to the reservation around Burley in that area and from what I understand some of the kids from Arizona, from the different tribes of Arizona like the Navaho and the Hopi came up to the Rexburg area. But apparently things didn’t work out and so they moved the kids from the South Dakota reservation back to Rexburg; and the kids from the Arizona reservations back down into the Burley area and that area down there.

HF: Now that brings up an interesting little aspect of this. According to the history, the Idaho Falls district was first established, headed by Bro. Tuttle. The Pocatello district, I think, was next, headed by a William Bush. About the same time, and this may not be accurate completely, they did have organized the Twin Falls district, and that would incorporate the Burley area in which Mary speaks. And in 1967, ‘68 year, they were planning to incorporate or organize two additional districts: the Boise District and the Soda Springs Preston districts. Now, do you people know whether or not those were actually organized and perfected?

MM or NG: When I called down there and talked to them, they told me that there’s only four districts now; and that is the Idaho Falls -- and that goes from West Yellowstone down to Firth, and the Pocatello -- and that includes Blackfoot -- and the Burly area, and the Boise area.

HF: So apparently the Soda Springs Preston didn’t come through?

MM or NG: Boise area includes Mountain Home and goes to Baker, Oregon.

DC: Okay, would that Preston is down where my- that’s where I’m from is down in Preston, Cash Valley area -- I’m wondering, would they go in through the Cash Valley, Utah, cause it’s right on the border there.

HF: It could be, it could be very likely. Now, I know the first year, according to the statistics, they had 103 youngsters placed, that would be ‘65, ‘66. The next year it increased rather remarkably. As I recall the figure they had 183 in the program, that’s ‘66, ‘67. I don’t know what’s happened after that. Nola, you did some research on the persons who were involved in leadership capacity more or less in this area, maybe the Idaho Falls area. Can you recall, would you enumerate those brothers?

NG: Okay. The first one was Clarence Tuttle. I guess at that time they called them the case workers. Val Denton is the second one. Lynn Welker, Mark Ricks, Vern Pierson, Paul Garrett, and now Rex Johns.

HF: Okay, and that apparently covers the ’60-‘65 on to the present time. Now, we have no knowledge as to how many youngsters there are on the program being placed, say for example, this current year. I don’t know how we can inquire that information.

NG or MM: In the whole church, a few years ago, there was 5,000; they’re down to 2,000. I think it’s 2,500 right now.

HF: So it’s about half what it used to be. The program has been in operation let us say just roughly, 20 years, from ’64 to ’84, give or take. Surly a number of persons have been helped. Do we have, do we have any—

[Side one of tape ends]

HF: Now, this is side two of the taped, focused subject matter that of the Indian Placement Program in eastern Idaho, primarily that of Idaho Falls district, but focusing primarily in the St. Anthony, Rexburg, and Rigby areas of those counties. We were talking a little about the percentage of youngsters who have been helped. What success, Deanna, do you have any statistics, or do you have any idea?

DC: Well, Nola and I was just talking together while you were putting the tape on. I think the statistics are one out of ten, but I’d like to add something to that. I think that no matter what, if they come in your home and live in your home; somehow you’ve planted a seed. So I can’t say that one out of ten tell the story because they have been helped, they have to have been helped.

HF: We find individuals who surface and reach a real pinnacle of success, who adopts very well and finds themselves; an example, of course, would be Mary Miller here today. Let’s see there was Boon. Is that right? Dwayne Boon from over at Sugar City just finishing college here? Is that correct?

MM: Returned from his mission.

HF: And I suppose he has returned from a mission of the church?

MM: Um-hm.

HF: And then there was another young man who is serving a mission here in Idaho, assigned here in the Rexburg area. Keep forgetting his name.

MM or NG: He’s a Navajo.

NG: On Dwayne Boon he’ll be married in the temple, in Salt Lake Temple shortly to a Lamanite that he met here at college.

MM: She graduated from the Placement Program from Salt Lake.

DC: I can tell you some other people, too. There was a Lionel Little from down in Iona, he just graduated from Ricks College. He has been on a mission, married in the temple and has a child; he’s studying to be a seminary teacher. And in the Rigby area we had an outstanding little athlete that lived with our Coach [Tecoria?] and his name was Troy Crowfoot. He’s been on a mission, just got married in the temple, and I understand that that’s what he’s studying, to be seminary plus he’s gonna coach. So there are success stories.

NG: I’d like to mention, too, that a little girl that we have in our home now, Daleena, her mother was on the Placement Program in Bountiful, Utah for only one year. And I call that a success story because she really felt like her daughter should be on the program. There’s a lot of respect with age amongst the Lamanites and the grandmother, Deleena’s

16 grandmother, didn’t want her to come on the program; but because the mother had been on and felt like she did grow from it, she wanted her daughters on. And so it’s because of the mother and the success that she had that one year that she has her two daughters on the program now.

HF: Have you noticed any particular ratio of boys or girls? Does one exceed the other in number of placements?

MM: There seems to be the girls. They’re the ones who…

HF: Want to come?

MM: It’s…you get more girls than you do boys.

HF: Can you give an explanation, Mary, for that?

MM: I really can’t tell ya, I really don’t know. Maybe because the boys…I really don’t know.

DC or NG: Okay, now I’ll ask a question because this question has been brought to my attention and I don’t know how to answer it, so I’ll ask Mary. The same question was asked to me, how come we get more girls, is it because the boys are more favored than the girls in their tribes on the reservation? This is what was told me and I can’t understand it but…

MM: For a boy on the reservation it’s not as hard to, they can get into trouble and they necessarily can get out of it, just is easier. For a girl it is a lot harder, if she gets into trouble, she’s in trouble, there’s no way she can get out of it. Boys can get away with a lot more than girls can on the reservation. So, therefore, the girls on the reservation -- plus the girls on the reservation want more; seem to want more than the boys normally do. I’m not saying the boys don’t want more, but the girls seem to find a way, and this is one of the ways of getting out off of the reservation to get you know, what they want.

HF: What are the educational opportunities, Mary, according to your experience on the reservations, in North or South Dakota?

MM: When I went to school in South Dakota on the reservation and I came out here, the expanse of knowledge was totally different. I was behind out here and I had to work hard to keep up. My grades were really bad. I didn’t know as much as the kids my age did and I was behind in school because I think that the reservation school was maybe a year or two behind what I was learning out here when I was on the Placement Program.

HF: And now, are your teachers on the reservation primarily Indian teachers?

MM: No, no. No, no, no.

HF: They aren’t?

MM: Uh-huh.

HF: They’re whites.

MM: Yes, mixed.

HF: Are they?

MM: Yeah. They don’t…

HF: Now those schools are provided, I suppose, by the DIA Bureau of Indian Affairs?

MM: Yes.

HF: Do you have an equal, a pretty much, an equal number of boys and girls attending school on the reservation?

MM: The ration seems to be higher for girls. The boys tend to drop out of school during, either, late junior high or early high school.

HF: How about work opportunities for the boys and girls on the reservation? Take the boys first. Are there work opportunities when they drop out of school? Do they have a chance to work?

MM: No, they don’t. When they drop out of school…the reservation, the tribe has work opportunities, but they don’t have enough for the many of the boys and girls who need jobs. Even if you do graduate from high school, the chances of you finding a job is very little. The jobs, there’s not very many jobs back there.

HF: What kinds of jobs are there?

MM: Jobs that the tribe supplies: office work, janitorial work, putting fences in, picking up trash. Just different that the government funds, or the tribe funds, and pays the people on the reservation, the students or the young men and women.

HF: Road Construction, anything like that?

MM: No.

HF: Nothing like that? The federal government, I guess, would be doing that?

MM: Uh-huh.

HF: Now how about the girls? Do they have a chance to be employed in some way? What kind of a work would they do?

MM: Office work, picking up trash, basically whatever they have that the girl is willing to do. For instance, even me as a college student when I go back there, I have a hard time finding a job. There’s just not enough funds to cover as many people that need work. And so, therefore, the jobs go to the people who do have children, the single adults that do have children who need the jobs more. And that’s good because, you know, that’s the way it should be.

HF: Now last year I had contact with a young lady, a Blackbowl. You probably know…

MM: Beverly?

HF: Beverly. And I think she went to Rapid City and did matron work in a motel, making beds and custodial work. Is this quite a true situation, a lot of the girls from the reservation go into the white man’s world and get jobs like that?

MM: Very few. Now, Beverly lived in Rapid City, as far as I understand she doesn’t live exactly on the reservation. So I would imagine that most girls do, most Indian girls who do live in the towns do get some kind of custodial works. But those who do live on the reservation just usually don’t work because there’s no jobs available or not enough.

NG: Okay, now when we were at Eagle Butte, to pick you kids up, there was a store there. Is that on the reservation itself or do the businesses people let them work in there?

MM: There’s a lot of discrimination is all I can say. I don’t wanna get into anything deep, but there’s a lot of discrimination. The reservation runs, part of it is he city of Eagle Butte and the other part of it is the reservation, and so there’s a lot of discrimination. A lot of the Indian people cannot find jobs working in the stores and construction area because of it.

NG: I was told that these children go home even the one that graduate from college, and there are no jobs at all, and they become idol, and just sit around, and this is when the problems begin.

MM: And they don’t- there’s really nothing for young kids to do except for to drink and to smoke and to…

NG: Get into trouble.

MM: Get into trouble.

HF: Now you’re talking about even the placement students when they leave to go back in the summertime?

DC: Yes. And when they do go back they’re not accepted very well and from what I understand that they are made fun of by the other students that are back there. Called “goodie goodies” and things like that.

NG: Or white, you’re turning white. I’ve heard that. Rob used to say, she used to come home at home with scratches during the summer the fights that she got into because of that very thing. They would call her half, you know, she was turning to be a white person. She had white person’s ideas.

MM: I can give you an example. My older sister and I got into a quarrel and she said, “We’re just not white enough for you, Mary. You think you’re too white and I just can’t put up with this anymore. You know, you want us to live the way the white men live and you just act too white for us.” That’s a prime example.

HF: Had your older sister been on the program?

MM: No, she hasn’t.

HF: Not at all.

MM: Um-hm.

NG: I’ve heard as the Lamanites call, the Lamanite people back on the reservation, call our Lamanite’s here they say, “You’re even talking like a white man, you don’t talk like a Lamanite anymore.” And the poor little kids don’t, they don’t understand that, they don’t know how they’re changing really.

HF: Is English a primary language now on the reservation as taught through the schools?

MM: Yes, it is. I know that the reservation, the Shine River Reservation, now has classes where the kids, if they want to, can learn Indian language. You know, but English is spoken, a lot of the traditions are forgotten, and the parents, very few parents, Indian parents, speak Indian to their children anymore.

HF: Now, through the Indian Placement Program, Mary, haven’t you always been encouraged to keep your own culture, remember your culture, be proud of your culture?

MM: Yeah.

HF: The foster parents that you have had down through the years, and how many years have you been on the program? Or were you on the program?

MM: Eight.

HF: Eight years. Now, can you recall of any foster parent, I’m not asking to give a name or anything like that, but do you ever recall of a foster parent encouraging you to completely adopt a white man’s way of thinking and doing, and forget about your own background and heritage?

MM: Never. No one.

HF: It’s almost the reverse, is it not? To try to, and I think that we’ve all observed that some of our find students have become quite talented. Take, for example, a Lamanite generation singing organization. You’ve heard of it?

MM: Yes.

HF: And you’re proud of it, aren’t you?

MM: Yes.

HF: I mean, why don’t you make a little comment about what you observed, maybe where your people have done some things like this, like singing groups or playing groups, or you know, instruments or whatever. Could you, if you can?

MM: Well, my sister and I through coming out on the Placement Program have learned to sing and we’ve learned to play the piano and I’ve learned how to play the clarinet. Most kids who come on the Placement Program learn to get involved into different groups and organizations that they never even knew existed. What else would you like to know about that?

HF: Does anyone else have a question? Sharing [this ?] Let’s get all the information we can out of Mary. [laughs] We’ll just pump all the questions we can at you and you share with us. Anyone else have any…

DC or NG: They don’t have any, I don’t think they do, any cub scouts on the reservation.

MM: They don’t, maybe they, they don’t. Maybe they do on a town part of the city, part of the Eagle Butte, but on the reservation part, there’s none. And in the schools there’s none. In the schools they do have a band program, they do have singing programs, they do have song groups, clubs, and organizations just like everybody else. And in the school on the reservations, the school happens to be on a reservation, and it is a large school; therefore, kids from White Horse, Dupree, [F..?], all these different places come to this school and participate along with white students. It’s combined. A mixture. They get along fine.

DC: How’s their athletic program? Do they compete?

MM: Their athletic program is great. They’re really competitive. It’s a competitive school. Usually in championships, they’re practically every year there. [Combined for] the number one position. The Lamanite people are very athletic and outgoing.

HF: Did you ever hear of the [fireman?] in the woods?

MM: He came from South Dakota. [While he preached?] South Dakota he actually lived in Eagle Butte, South Dakota and I understand he played for Ricks College.

HF: Tremendous athlete.

MM: In question to that, Bonnie Searcy who works at the Financial Aids Office at Ricks told me this year when I went in there, she said, “Mary, I’m really excited.” And I said, “Why?” And she goes, “I looked on the graduation list and Ricks had one Lamanite student graduate about six years ago. This year we have eight Lamanite students graduating.” And she said, “I was so proud to look down that list and see eight names of Lamanite students.”

HF: Would you mind commemorating those?

[MM and NG and DC all talking at the same time indistinguishably]

MM: Well, Dwaynne Boon, Bernice Whitecow, Beverly Blackball, myself, Lionel Little, and there’s about three others that I can’t remember their names. You mentioned them.

Someone: There’s Jon. John Galigos.

NG: And he is from a reservation I guess from Colorado and he did a lot of dancing up here, did a lot of dancing for the elementary schools, he’d go up and entertain them. Just really beautiful, beautiful costumes that he would wear. And he told me, he said, “I had no idea when I came here that I would ever go on a mission,” he says, “But I am gonna go.” And he told me he’d let me know when he gets his call, but he was quite excited about a mission. When our little boy had his picture taken at school I decided to let him wear his Cub Scout uniform and when his brothers, and sisters, and cousins up there had saw it on him, they thought that we had him join the army. But his grandfather was really excited that he is a Cub Scout. But the thing I think, why they are sent here, is because they know very, very little about the gospel when they come. They are baptized and that is just about it. And we were asked to strive hard to develop a relationship with their Heavenly Father and their testimony. We’ve had out little boy, today he stood up and bore a beautiful testimony and it’s amazing what they can pick up through prayer and through your family nights that you have with them. And we also are asked to have them strengthen their relationship with themselves to strive hard to work on their self-esteem and also to have them show love. They don’t, they do feel a great deal of love, but the Indian doesn’t express it very well. To touch and [our’s too?] wouldn’t think of going to

22 bed without kissing us good night and, I don’t know, I guess maybe when they go home I don’t’ know if this will keep up or not.

MM: On the reservation it’s just not done. It’s done in case of a death. But, when a mom hugs a little kid she kisses him and everything, but when the kid reaches about, I would say, maybe junior high school then it just stops. You know that the mother loves you, but the mother or the father never really come right out and tell you. They just, you know, you assume by them taking care of you and everything that they love you.

HF: In these emotions, how we express them; how does, how do your people express happiness?

MM: Well…

HF: Laugh?

MM: They laugh a lot there. Really laugh, real friendly people. They joke around there. They laugh.

HF: How do they express unhappiness?

MM: They cry…

HF: Are they quite emotional?

MM: The women cry. The men get angry.

HF: How do they express their anger?

MM: Oh, they…

HF: That’s kinda hard. Do they, do they swear?

MM: They get physical.

HF: And strike?

MM: They strike anything or in anger they go out and get drunk. They swear. They kind of run away from the problem.

HF: I see. And it’s difficult for them to show love for their children after they get to a certain age.

MM: It is. I think it’s just because they don’t know how.

HF: How about a husband and a wife?

MM: Oh, I don’t think so.

HF: You’ve never observed affection being shown between husband and wife?

MM: Yes, I have. But my mother has always shown me love. I mean, not as much… when I was younger she did. But that’s because she had eight other children to take care of and she was trying to divide her love between all of us. But I knew my mother loved me because when she would send me out on the program, before I would leave she would cry and hold me tight and give me a big hug and tell me that she loved me before she put me in the bus. And she would tell me to be good. And so, therefore, I knew (Crying).

HF: How about your father? Would he…

MM: My mother and my father were divorced when I was six years old.

HF: Is it a truism, Mary, that there’s a great percentage of the families, say on the reservation, that are broken families with the mother rearing the children?

MM: Yes.

HF: Isn’t that tragic?

MM: My father run…

HF: Father’s gone away and you just don’t see much of him again, yes?

DC: That’s why it’s hard, I think, for these little Indian girls to warm up to the fathers of the family, because they don’t have that at home. They crave it and it takes time, it takes patience. But eventually when they finally realize the father figure, boy, I know Robin; she was always over on my husband’s lap. Nobody else could get to him because she’d be all the time. She was there with her arms around him loving him, and hugging him, and kissing him. It was amazing.

MM: They just don’t relate to a man because they have been raised by a mom and you know, and there’s a lot of more girls. A lot of girls than there is boys. I can give you an example.

HF: Go ahead.

MM: When I first came out on the program I didn’t say anything for three months. I was scared my parents were gonna take me away and kidnap me or something. I didn’t know what was gonna happen to me.

HF: Now this is your natural parents?

MM: My foster parents.

HF: Oh, your foster parents.

MM: When I came on the program I didn’t know what to expect. And I was excited, but I was scared. And I know I upset my foster parents because I didn’t talk for like three months and I think they started to think I was deaf and dumb. But when I finally started warming up, I warmed up to my foster mother first and I got to know her [and it was like?]. I got really close to her and my foster dad would come up and give me a hug and stuff and I would like it, but yet I was scared to show emotion back to him because I didn’t know how. I didn’t know what to expect or anything. And when I finally got to know him then he became a great man to me and he still is to this day. I just grew to love him like a father.

HF: Now, was that in this area, Mary?

MM: This is in Idaho Falls.

HF: In Idaho Falls. And your eight years on the program has been all in this area, is it?

MM: Three years in Idaho Falls and the rest has been in Rexburg.

HF: I see. Ray, you haven’t contributed too much here. Would you have any comment from your experience relating to these Indian students in your home?

Roy Gallup: Well, I think they need a lot of attention. No one mentioned this little girl named Rose that we had. She was like what Deanna said about Robin. She was always wanting attention, especially from me. And they decided what they would try to do the next year was put them with a family that didn’t have any children. It worked in some ways, but they lost the other contact of the other children. I noticed Delaina. I don’t think she’s had a father [to relate too much?] and she [?] every time she walks by me or something she wants [?] do something and [?] with her and play with her a little bit. But she wanted the attention and I think that’s part of the problem. Jeremy has been raised by not even a mother. He’s been raised by grandparents. It was the mother that’s, she was one the program for about half a year [?] and she recognizes also and so… But I think the thing they want is just, they want somebody, as long as they’re fair, as long as they see that it’s the same treatment that the other children get, and they don’t mind any discipline as long as they can see it’s fair. In fact, I think they want the control.

DC: I have a letter here if we have the time that really goes into this discipline.

HF: Why don’t you share that with us, Deanna.

DC: Okay, now this is from your friend down in the [Coctus?] and they had a Joseph Waters and they had him for two…they got him in October of 1965. But anyway, it says:

It was the Sabbath day after our Sunday school meeting, we invited Uncle Bill and some other relatives to share this dinner because they were having a birthday party for the husband. Or their [?], Okay. There was a nice dinner fixed and when they got home from church, the older sister said that John and Joseph, which is Joseph who was the Lamanite student, had [elastics?] at Sunny School and they were throwing them and hitting the girls and so forth and so on. She was really embarrassed because she wasn’t able to keep this kids under control and she was really in tears. And anyway, she said being in [?] and feeling that the boys were reaching an age of knowing better I really scolded them. John, who was her own son, said he was sorry to Susan, but true to his Lamanite nature, Joseph couldn’t bring himself to give an apology. He went downstairs and grabbed his sweater and some new binoculars that he had purchased with his spud picking money and left out the back door. I saw him cross the fence into the north pasture and started off through the fields. Our loved ones came for our birthday dinner and we enjoyed a good visit, but we couldn’t find Joseph. When it came time for sacrament meeting he was not to be found. We knew he would be here when we returned for sacrament meeting, but as it became late and it was dark there was still no Joseph and they became very terribly anxious. So they called Bro. Tuttle and told him what happened and he suggested that they call the Rigby and Idaho Falls police and alert them with a description of this boy.

And they said they felt like he would return any minute so they left the lights on all night and the hour seemed endless and neither of us slept. By the time morning had come there was a dark gloom over our home and very few words were exchanged. We decided to fast until we received word of his whereabouts. And the bishop came over after the children left for school and he felt that Joseph had returned back to Lame Deer, Montana. And she said, Sis. Cox was saying all the time I was giving myself a tongue lashing for not being more diplomatic with these boys. And she said, “About 1 pm the next day, I was folding clothes in the utility room when I caught a glimpse of a dark head pass by the window. It was Joseph. My heart leaped inside and I found myself in a stream of grateful tears as I hugged him close to me. Joseph told me as going through the field and out to the highway where he got a ride to Rexburg, he decided to go to a movie, which he saw two or three times. It was dark when he came out of the theatre. Someone whom he did not know offered him a bed when he told him of his circumstances, he stayed there until morning. He had walked back to Rigby and onto our home. He was a sorry boy. He didn’t think we would be worried about him because he had left home before on the reservation and was hardly missed. He’d looked in the phone book for Bob Cox that lived in Rigby but the only listings were for Robert Cox. He did not know that Robert was the correct name for our family. (Laughs) It made me realize how much different his background had been from our own and that we must take all of this into consideration in the future. We talked at length, and he ate a hearty dinner, and he gave me his word that he would not leave home again. We both promised that we needed to talk over our differences that might come. He helped me in the kitchen…”

And anyway, it says our surroundings in life do influence us to a degree. Joseph had not experienced some of the heart to heart talks family members know about and the rules and the discipline. All of this we are learning together. We resolved to be more understanding to all of the children that are entrusted to us.

DC: And that’s from Sis and Bro. Bob Cox in Rigby.

HF: Very good. As we come to the close of this interview, I think we should make one thing clear, that the policy of the church now has been modified somewhat. As I understand it, initially you had to be baptized and at least 8 years of age, of course, before you could apply and be brought aboard the Indian Placement Program. Now, the church as of this fall of 1984, excuse me -- I think it was in the fall, wasn’t it? Of 1983 or the early spring of 1984 -- they’ve changed the program so that only youngsters 12 years of age and above…

Someone: No, it’s 11.

RG: Eleven

HF: Eleven years, Okay.

Someone: It’s a fifth grader or 11 years of age.

HF: Are applicable or eligible to get on the program. Have you, would anyone like to explain, if they know, why this particular shift and change of policy?

Someone: Well, I asked Bro. Johns, because this really upset me because my philosophy was, get these kids out there when they’re eight years old so we can instill early in life. But evidently the church has taken a poll and they have found that when you get ‘em out here at eight years of age they become bored later on in life; with the program they get homesick, all these kinds of things, they wonder what they’re missing out on in the reservation. They have found if they get ‘em out here when they’re 10 or 11, then they have a willingness more to stay on the program. Now that’s exactly what Bro. Johns told me.

HF: Do you people have any comment?

NG: He mentioned also to me that if they’re on the program any longer than seven or eight years that they’re losing their own culture, and this doesn’t agree with what he told me just this week. He said that they’re gonna meet with the General Authority over this Idaho area in June; and that they have decided that they won’t encourage the Lamanites to go back to their Indian culture, that they’re gonna integrate them into the white man’s world. I didn’t understand whether he meant this, like Mary, after they get off the program or if this is during the summer months. I can’t imagine it being during the summer months, although, I would sure agree with that. I would like them not to go back

27 for so long and so long isn’t very long, only a couple of months, but I’m just not sure. I guess he, do you know what he meant Deanna?

DC: Well, I’ve expressed my viewpoints on this, too but I will. I feel a need. But I felt like, you know, if we could keep this kids…because you bring them out here -- and I’m sure Mary will understand when I say this -- you bring them out here for nine months, you get ‘em going to your way of life, and you send them back on the reservation and it’s undone. And it takes, if you get ‘em back in your home again, it could take three months before you could ever get ‘em back to your way of life again. And some of them go back to very, very sad circumstances, terrible circumstances. And it’s bound to influence them in some way.

HF: Let’s be specific about this now for the tape, I think, you have established a way of life for these students; your way of life. Now, they go back to their Indian way of life in about two or three months of summer. What’s the difference? What’s happened?

DC: No discipline.

NG: Now, I talked to, I called this week to the reservation -- I don’t know if I told you this at the beginning of the tape or not -- I talked with the Sis. Collins out there and her husband is the branch president. And I’ve…

HF: Which reservation are you talking about?

DC: The…

Someone: It’s Dakota anyway.

DC: I’m not sure which reservation it is. Is it in Red Scaffold?

Someone: It was in Red Scaffold, South Dakota.

HF: Okay.

Someone: And this is where our little girl’s mother lives now. And I asked her if she would get a letter from out little girl’s mother to see if we could keep her for a while til the middle of June, towards the end of June, maybe. And she said, “I want you to know this” -- now this Branch President’s wife and the Branch President met at the BYU so they’re educated people. And she said, “I hate to tell you this but,” she says, “in the nine months that you have had this little girl, everything will be undone in two days if she is sent to Red’s Scaffold. Because the boys there,” she said, “are just really bad.” And this is so hard for us as foster parents to have these children this long and to think that nothing terrible like this will happen to her. We have been asked by the social services to have a family night lesson on, well, on I guess its’ more of an education to tell them just exactly what they need to do if anybody does approach them on touching and things like this.

It’s just been on my mind ever since I talked to her. We’re waiting for a call now to see if this mother will let her, let Deleena, stay with us.

DC: Well they go back to a lot of, when we took our little Indian girl back the first year, her mother knew that we were coming; we told her when we were coming. We had Rob and her little brother. We got there, there was no one. We walked in the house, Robin went up into the bedroom, and there was one drunken brother; and if you don’t think that this leaves me with a sick feeling, I had to leave my little Indian girl there. But I had no choice. And this is what they go back to. Drinking…

MM: Drugs.

DC: Drugs, rape, all this kind of stuff goes on. And that’s putting it bluntly.

HF: In, right within the family.

DC: You’re right.

HF: Almost.

DC: Lots of times, yes.

HF: Now, when they come to you, I think we’ve, it’s been expressed that they’re quite timid, shy. This is, and maybe, this is evidence of a low self-esteem. Is this quite a problem with the children when they come to us, Mary, do you think? Looking at your own background and your own experience? Shyness, low esteem, just what would be your feeling?

MM: I was scared, I was frightened; I think it’s a reaction like any other child. If you would take a child from Rexburg and send them to the reservation, I’m sure they would act the same way and be quiet, and mind your manners, and say yes maam, no maam, you know, because just out of little children, you know, just being frightened. Afraid to speak, afraid to do anything because you don’t know how the parents are gonna take it.

DC: Well, do…could I ask her a question?

HF: You bet.

DC: Do, are you taught on the reservation that the white man is better than the Indian? Do you feel that way?

MM: Yes. We…

HF: Why? Why are they better? What does the white man do that make you children of -- this is an expression I’ve heard from an Indian lady here in the area who was born

29 and reared; Beaver Dick’s granddaughter -- “Children of Nature.” Do you ever hear that expression?

MM: Mm-mm. [No]

HF: “Children of Nature.”

MM: Well, I think the thing is that over here there’s jobs, everything. People have the chance to go up the latter and to progress. On the reservation there’s no jobs, there’s nothing for anybody to do except to drink, to take drugs, to do all this kind of wicked things. And when I came out here I was amazed that they had carpet on their floor. I was, I just thought the home was just the neatest cause they had carpet on their floor and they had, just everything was…their outside was, their yard was taken care of. There were flowers in their yard and, to me; they had a good running car in fact, too. And that was, hey, this family’s really rich, you know, because back on the reservation we didn’t have a car. We didn’t have carpet on our floor. We had tile floor, but we didn’t have carpet because we couldn’t afford it; just that time I would imagine. The Indians are given to be a low self esteem. No jobs, nothing, they think -- all we’re good for, you know is…you know, there’s nothing for us here on the reservation and we have no way of getting off, if we do get off. We don’t get any breaks. Everybody’s attitude about the Indian is that they’re drunken bums and they’re no good. So who wants to hire us, what’s there for us to do except for to live off the government? You know, [talk to?] the tribe and drink and smoke.

HF: Mary, is this changing a little bit? Have you noticed, have you observed, can you give us an assurance that things are changing a little bit on your reservation?

MM: I can, I can give you an assurance that they are changing.

HF: For the better?

MM: If you ask me, the reservation is becoming more and more wicked. It seems like there’s no help. They’ve totally forgotten their tradition; they’ve abandoned speaking their language. They, a lot of them, this is on the Shining River reservation; I’m not sure about the other reservations.

Someone: Basically it’s all the same.

MM: But they’ve just abandoned all hope, like the Indian has nothing to live for. There’s no…no matter how hard they succeed they can’t. And that’s wrong for them to think and this is where the Placement Program is important because it gives that child a chance to see a different kind of life. And that’s what she means is, when they come out here, you see carpeted floors, and nice running cars, and yards and streets that are kept up, and signs, and everything and how it’s better; so neat, immaculate. When you go back on the reservation and you see dirt, dirt. Nobody, you know, the yard’s not taken care of, you see houses with mud on them, and paint peeling, and in the house there’s no carpet or

30 the furniture’s all worn out and stuff. And you take the Lamanites and you put, from what you’ve learned here, you’ve taught them here, and you go back and they’re all alone by themselves and they have no one to turn to, to say go to church on Sunday, to keep, you know, children need to be told what to do, you know. They need ‘til they can get old enough to accept it; and when they’re not pushed, they’re not told, they’re not counseled, right; the only way they’re counseled is to go one way, which is downhill. And so why not join the crowd, you know, they’re making me feel good, they’re being my friend, and everything, I’m being accepted here. Then they usually end up getting hooked on drugs during that summer that they’re home or the girls end up becoming pregnant or they just become so bad that they feel that, you know, they just decided that they don’t want the program.

HF: Don’t parents give any instruction at all to their children as they grow up as to sex education? Isn’t this mentioned, taught in the home?

MM: I don’t think so. It wasn’t, it was never really taught in my home. I learned everything from my foster mother, my foster mothers. Everything. I don’t think it’s taught, I don’t think that the Lamanite mothers know how to express it to their daughters. A lot of times, once the daughters reach a certain age they rebel because, oh, this guy is cute, looked at her and stuff, you know, and they just kinda ignored the advice of their parents and say, “what’s gonna happen to me after high school, you know, there’s nothing for me.” So, you know?

HF: By the time a youngster gets into high school on the reservation, say 18 years of age, that’s adulthood here in Idaho; eighteen is adulthood. Virtually, are all of them married?

MM: No.

HF: The girls aren’t, by that time, they aren’t married?

MM: Girls never get married. They have children from fathers who won’t marry them.

HF: I see.

MM: It’s just kinda like, you know -- this is putting it bluntly -- but get what you can from this girl and that girl. And a lot of them are left to just live off of welfare because there’s no jobs for them to succeed and to go up.

HF: So they have the children and they have the responsibility end up with having to rear them.

MM: Um-hm.

HF: And they go on welfare to do that.

MM: Yes. And…

HF: And they don’t make an effort to enforce and make the father of that child support the child?

MM: Well, lots of times they try, but very seldom does that happen to work out. The father goes to drinking and then by that time the mother says, “He’s not good enough to be a father to my child because he’s drinking, and he’s on drugs, and he’s doing all this kind of stuff.”

HF: Have you ever…

[The rest of the interview is missing]