Tuesday Volume 587 28 October 2014 No. 51

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 28 October 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 153 28 OCTOBER 2014 154

will be replaced at the end of its life in the late-2020s by House of Commons the successor strategic submarine, which will carry the Trident missiles, subject to main-gate investment approval Tuesday 28 October 2014 for the programme in 2016. I know that he will approve of that.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The last conference was attended by more than 140 states and by the United PRAYERS Nations, the Red Crescent and civil society. What message does it send to the rest of the world and to rogue [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] regimes that seek to have nuclear weapons that the UK is prepared to boycott such a conference? The Minister went to school in Vienna. Why does he not take the Oral Answers to Questions opportunity to go back and take part in the conference? Mr Ellwood: As I said, the objectives of the conference FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE are unclear. That is why the P5 nations have not attended in the past. The hon. Gentleman suggests that we are The Secretary of State was asked— doing nothing. We have reduced the number of nuclear warheads that we possess by well over 50% since the peak of the cold war. In 2010, this Government announced Nuclear Weapons (Vienna Conference) further reductions to no more than 120 operationally available warheads and a total stockpile of no more 1. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Whether than 180 warheads by the mid-2020s. That is action, the UK will be officially represented at the conference which is what the Government need to pursue. on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons to be held in Vienna in December 2014. [905688] Religious Minorities (Algeria) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): The 2. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): What recent Government have received an invitation to the conference representations he has made to the Algerian Government on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons to be on ensuring that Christians and other religious minorities held in Vienna in December. We are considering whether are protected from persecution and discrimination. to attend. [905689]

Jeremy Corbyn: I urge the Government to attend the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign conference and to join the family of nations around and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): We the world that supported the previous conferences. One regularly discuss human rights with the Algerian hundred and twenty-eight nations attended the 2013 Government, although we have not raised religious conference in Norway, 145 went to Mexico earlier this freedoms specifically. Human rights will be on the agenda year and the New Zealand Government, on behalf of for the next meeting of the EU-Algeria political dialogue. 155 nations, have urged universal attendance at this conference. They have drawn attention to the first ever Naomi Long: I thank the Minister for his answer, resolution that was passed by the UN General Assembly although I am disappointed that religious persecution in 1946, which drew attention to the devastating effects has not been raised with the Algerian Government. of nuclear weapons and nuclear warfare on humanity What advice is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as a whole. Britain should be there and should not giving to colleagues in the immigration service to ensure boycott it, as it will apparently do along with the other that they are fully equipped to offer good advice and five permanent members of the Security Council. support to people from Algeria and north Africa more generally who apply for asylum on the basis of religious Mr Ellwood: The House will be aware of the hon. persecution? Gentleman’s consistent views on this subject. The goals of the conference are unclear and, consequently, none Mr Ellwood: I certainly will raise the matter with my of the P5 nuclear weapon states has attended the conferences Algerian counterparts. The hon. Lady has raised an in the past, as he said. We do not believe that a ban on important issue. She will be aware that regulations nuclear weapons is negotiable, nor that it would even be governing religion in Algeria came into force in May observed by many nuclear powers. Even if it could be 2007. They are designed to be multi-faith and not to achieved in theory, in practice the confidence and focus on one particular religion. I would be delighted to verification measures that would be necessary to make meet her to discuss the matter in more detail. it effective are not in place. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does my Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): The hon. Friend agree that the greatest humanitarian effect atmosphere in which religious discrimination takes place of Britain’s possession of a nuclear deterrent is to is affected by other issues in a country, including economic reduce the chances of nuclear war or nuclear blackmail pressures and the like. Does my hon. Friend think that against this country? the recent successful elections in Tunisia will ease the atmosphere in respect of persecution across the area Mr Ellwood: The House is, as ever, grateful for my more generally? Does he also think that economic hon. Friend’s interest and expertise in this matter. The development in the area, which is necessary for justice Government’s policy is that the Vanguard class submarine to prevail, is getting a boost from our work in Algeria? 155 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 156

Mr Ellwood: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for clearly wrong, and substantial compensation was rightly his question, and Tunisia is to be congratulated on the paid. We welcome the US presence in Diego Garcia. It considerable progress it has made. It has just completed is an increasingly important asset for both our Governments, parliamentary elections, and presidential elections will but there have been no formal discussions with the US follow in November, replacing the technocratic Government about the possibility of extending the exchange of notes who have guided the country on its transition towards to date. its new status as a fully fledged democracy. I very much welcome those changes: strong civil society, national Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I met dialogue, an apolitical army, and new progress towards 60 members of the Chagos community in my constituency a constitution. on Friday—a faithful people but without the right to return they once again feel that will not adequately Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Religious mourn their dead as they approach All Hallows next intolerance and persecution is a problem throughout week. Their elders are passing away without having the world. What will the Government do to raise that recorded their stories of displacement, and their young issue with the Human Rights Council next year, and are finding it increasingly difficult to find salaried what does the Minister think the United Nations can do employment or to visit their friends in Crawley and now to tackle the problem? other places across the country. They also worry about us ceding sovereignty. Does the Minister agree that we Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman makes an important should be doing more for those people, rather than less? point, and the issue is raised at the United Nations General Assembly and in our bilaterals. Britain will Mr Swire: I assure the hon. Gentleman that there are continue to raise the issue on a regular basis at all our no issues of any sort about ceding sovereignty—we meetings, not just those in the middle east but also with should deal with that point straight away. The draft other countries where there are questions to be asked in KPMG report, which we were not obliged to undertake, that area. will be out on 17 November, and thereafter there will be time for all those who have been consulted to make such Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): What points before the final report early next year. That is is the Minister doing for my constituents who have why we have included the Chagossians in the testimony. complained not only about the treatment of Christians in Algeria but also about the increasing pressure on Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): A Christians in Pakistan? What are we doing to monitor previous Father of the House and great friend of mine, that, and what will we do about it? Sir Bernard Braine, was a passionate advocate of the rights of the inhabitants of Diego Garcia when the Mr Ellwood: As I said, we are having bilaterals on whole idea of turning it into a base was launched. In his that issue. The specific issue in Algeria is to do with new memory, may I say that I very much hope that the regulations that have been introduced. The rules are guarantees that he received from the British Government there but they now need to be implemented, and we will of the time about looking after those people will be continue to have a dialogue on that. I intend to visit fulfilled? Algeria soon, and given the concern that the House has expressed today, I will certainly raise that issue during Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend is right to remind the my visit. House of our responsibilities towards the Chagossians, and as I said earlier, the actions of the ’60s and ’70s Chagossian Resettlement were clearly wrong and substantial compensation was rightly paid. It is worth pointing out that the British 3. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What progress his High Court in 2008, and the European Court in 2012, Department has made with the British Indian Ocean ruled that the compensation was a full and final settlement Territory Chagossian resettlement feasibility study; of the Chagossians’ claims. and if he will make a statement. [905690] Security Situation (Turkey) The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire): The independent feasibility study on resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory 4. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) is on track to report by January 2015. Ongoing consultations (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the with interested parties, including Chagossians, are taking security situation in Turkey. [905691] place so that all relevant facts are considered in the analysis of the practical costs and risks of resettlement. The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Turkey is an important security partner for the UK in NATO Henry Smith: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend and in actions against terrorism. She faces major challenges for that answer. Given upcoming negotiations on extending because of the conflicts in Syria and Iraq, and we value the military base on Diego Garcia with the United the Turkish humanitarian contribution and her support States, may I have assurances from the Department that for coalition activities against ISIL. the interests of the Chagos islands people will be very much part of those discussions with Washington? Jesse Norman: I thank the Minister for that reply. The security situation in Turkey remains extraordinarily Mr Swire: That is precisely why we have commissioned delicate. What support have the Government given to the KPMG report. The way that the Chagossians were assist Turkey with those serious security concerns while treated following their removal in the ’60s and ’70s was also respecting the rights and freedoms of its citizens? 157 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 158

Mr Lidington: Only last week we held one of our Gaza regular discussions with the Turkish authorities about counter-terrorism co-operation. The subjects discussed 5. Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What recent included better work to detect explosive traces in material steps the Government have taken to assist with the going through airports and how we can better share reconstruction of Gaza. [905692] information about airline passengers to guard against future terrorist attack. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): On 12 October, at the Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister reconstruction conference in Cairo, the UK pledged referred to Turkey’s role with regard to Syria. Does he £20 million to help kick-start Gaza’s recovery. It is agree that it is absolutely deplorable that the Turkish essential that both sides take the necessary practical Government are not providing assistance to the besieged steps to allow reconstruction. Reconstruction of Gaza people of Kobane and the other Syrian Kurds facing an is necessary and urgent to get the economy back to existential threat from ISIL? Turkey needs to get off the business, but progress to a political settlement must fence and to decide which side it is on. Is it with ISIL, or follow quickly on its heels. is it with the civilian population and the Kurds in Syria? Andrew Griffiths: I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. Many in the House were concerned about Mr Lidington: The Turkish Government have made it the impact on ordinary Palestinians during the 50-day very clear that they are on the side of the coalition and conflict. Of particular concern was the bombing of the against ISIL. They are now allowing Kurdish fighters hospital in Gaza. Will he advise us what the Government to cross through Turkish territory to take part in the are doing to help rebuild vital medical facilities in fighting around Kobane. It is also worth the hon. Gaza? Gentleman bearing it in mind that Turkey is providing refuge to 1.5 million people who have fled the fighting in Iraq and Syria, and we ought to acknowledge that Mr Hammond: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of contribution too. State for International Development is deeply engaged in that question. As I have said, we have pledged £20 million and we will continue to work with the UN and other Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Turkey’s security interests agencies, but we urgently require an unsticking of the with regard to Islamic State are absolutely engaged, as process that allows construction materials into Gaza so are those of the other two major regional powers, Saudi that physical reconstruction can commence. When that Arabia and Iran. If those three countries can be got to process is under way, I am sure there will be significant agree a political strategy towards Islamic State, we will further pledges of assistance on top of the billions of begin to have a sensible military strategy to underpin it. dollars already available to reconstruct Gaza as a result What work is going on to get those three countries to of the Cairo conference. discuss that seriously? Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Lidington: There was a coalition meeting of Ministers Have any arrangements been agreed to ensure that in the margins of the recent NATO ministerial meeting much needed building materials for hospitals, schools at which that political discussion was taken forward. and homes will not be diverted to rebuilding the terror Clearly, we would welcome it unreservedly if it were tunnels, which Hamas claims it has started to do? possible to rally all the regional powers towards a united effort to defeat ISIL and to see the Iraqi Government, Mr Hammond: This is the essential challenge: ensuring the legitimate authorities, re-establish control over all that construction materials in the quantities needed can their territory. enter Gaza under a monitoring regime that is satisfactory to the Israelis as well as the Palestinians and that they are applied to the rebuilding of homes, schools, hospitals Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): For four years, I and infrastructure, and not diverted for military purposes. have noticed that the Tory Con-Dem Government have Such a mechanism is in place. There was a temporary very much been apologists for Turkey. The Prime Minister glitch—hopefully—earlier this week in its operation, indicated that he wanted Turkey in the European Union. but officials are working flat out to try to resolve it. I Here we are again, apologising, or at least this Front hope we see major progress over the next few days. Bench is apologising, for Turkey’s failure to act in concert with the British and Americans. What is it that Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does my right hon. gets Tory Ministers so engaged in wanting to befriend Friend agree that, while Hamas continues to rule Gaza Turkey and to get it into the EU? with such brutality and to amass missiles—as we have heard, many of them are from Iran—the prospect of a Mr Lidington: The Government do not apologise for viable and democratic Palestinian state looks ever more upholding the national interest of the United Kingdom unlikely? by working closely with Turkey, which has been our NATO ally under Governments of different political Mr Hammond: The challenge to the authority of colours over many decades. There are issues on which the Palestinian Authority from what is happening in we disagree, in which case we make our views clear, but Gaza is an impediment to progress on a broader middle I hope that even the hon. Gentleman would welcome east peace settlement, but I am of the view that we must the work that the Turkish Government are doing to try first bring humanitarian relief to Gaza, which means to bring about a reconciliation with the Kurds—something getting started urgently on reconstruction. We then we all want to see. need a sustained ceasefire and settlement around Gaza 159 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 160 as a step to proceeding to a resumption of the wider Mr Hammond: The right hon. Gentleman is exactly middle east peace process. I hope for significant American right. The big risk is of a frozen conflict and people’s leadership to revitalise that process over the coming attention turning elsewhere, and it would be disingenuous weeks and months. of me not to acknowledge that some of our European partners are more robust on the agenda that he has set Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I agree with the out than others. We are determined—and we have some Secretary of State that the urgent and pressing matter is powerful allies in the European Union—to maintain the humanitarian and reconstruction needs currently the pressure on Russia, including keeping sanctions in faced by the people of Gaza. Is it a forlorn hope—can place, until Russia complies with its obligations under he give us some hope—for a political solution in the the Minsk agreement, in particular: the removal of medium to long term that allows the security needs of Russian forces; the proper monitoring of the border the Israelis and the Israeli nation to be met at the same between Ukraine and Russia, not the line of control time as the lifting of the economic constrictions and the between separatists and Ukraine forces; and an end to strangulation of Gaza? That has to be the way forward. active Russian support for the separatists.

Mr Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): Last night I All hon. Members would agree that the Gazan economy returned from Kharkiv, which, as my right hon. Friend needs to be reactivated so that people can get back to knows, is just to the north of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. something like life as normal. The stranglehold imposed In Kharkiv on Sunday, the situation was calm, peaceful by the access regime needs to be relaxed, but it can be and orderly, and I suspect we will find that the results of relaxed only in the context of Israel feeling safe and the election will prove to be fair and a proper reflection secure. of what the people of Ukraine want. That being so, will my right hon. Friend call the Russian ambassador in Government of Ukraine and tell him that it is wholly inappropriate for the Russian Foreign Minister to seek to promote unofficial 6. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): elections in Donetsk and Luhansk? What steps he is taking to offer support to the Government of Ukraine. [905693] Mr Hammond: Sunday’s elections were a clear demonstration of Ukraine’s commitment to democracy. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth We have made it clear, and the European Union again Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): The UK is providing last week endorsed a collective position, that we will not £19 million of assistance to the Ukrainian Government. recognise illegal elections organised by separatists. The We are one of the largest contributors of election and only elections we will recognise are those organised by border monitors, but most importantly, we are maintaining and operating under Ukrainian law. pressure on Russia through sanctions to withdraw troops, to cease support for separatists and to respect the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): sovereignty of Ukraine. It is good to be back on the Front Bench after a short absence. I thank hon. Members for their messages of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am sure the House wishes good will, especially those from some Government President Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yatsenyuk Members who are somewhat fearful of their own party’s every possible success in resolving their dispute with direction at the present time. Russia peacefully. I met the Prime Minister in the In our current debates about the European Union, summer and he told me that his country was desperately we should not forget that its expansion to include short of resources and equipment. I urge Her Majesty’s former Warsaw pact countries was a victory for peace Government to do whatever they can to help. and democracy. It was a foreign policy victory for the west, championed by the Conservative Government at Mr Hammond: The Government have already made the time, and it means that war between member states non-lethal equipment available to support the Ukrainian is almost inconceivable. However, for countries outside armed forces, and we are working with European Union the EU, such as Ukraine, it can be a very different story. partners to look at the needs of the Ukrainian economy Following the elections, what more can we do with our over the coming winter. Ukraine faces a massive energy European partners to stop the further undermining of crunch over the next few months, and the Ukrainian Ukrainian sovereignty and ensure that a newly elected economy is likely to have shrunk by more than 6.5% Government there is free to choose its own path for the since before the conflict began. We are acutely aware—we country’s future? discussed this at the Foreign Affairs Council last Monday in Luxembourg—of the fact that Ukraine is likely to be looking for further support from the EU this winter. Mr Hammond: First, I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s return to his place on the Front Bench. We Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): Can look forward to debating all these issues with him. the Foreign Secretary assure us that the Government Of course the election on Sunday was important in are doing everything they can to ensure that the underscoring the legitimacy of the Ukrainian Government. dismemberment of Ukraine stays at the forefront of I have already set out our demands that the Russians everyone’s mind? Can he absolutely assure the House comply with their obligations under the Minsk that there is no intention on our part of allowing this to agreement—withdrawing their troops from Ukrainian slip down the agenda, thereby allowing the aggression territory, allowing proper monitoring of the border and to stand and the de facto creation of new Russia to ending their support to the separatists—but it goes become embedded? further than that. It is about the more subtle forms of 161 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 162

Russian control and influence over the Ukrainian economy security and peace for both Israel and Palestine. There and political system. We are working closely with President is no legalistic, unilateral or bureaucratic route to that Poroshenko and his Government to ensure that Ukraine objective; it will be achieved only by getting Israelis and has a robust position in response to those forms of Palestinians working together to build trust, to compromise pressure. Although the European Union does not agree and to negotiate and by means of economic development on all issues in relation to the Russia-Ukraine dispute, it and trade in the west bank and by the reconstruction is pretty much clear and unified in its view that Ukraine and demilitarisation of Gaza. must be allowed to choose its own future free of external pressure. Mr Ellwood: The whole House would agree with the hon. Gentleman. I, too, had the opportunity to visit Several hon. Members rose— Gaza, Jerusalem, Israel and the occupied territories over the last few weeks. I was astonished by the amount Mr Speaker: We need to speed up. Progress is very of energy there and by the people who absolutely want slow and there are a lot of questions to get through. to work together. One example of that is the UK-Israel tech hub, which is driving economic and technological Israel and Palestine collaboration between the UK and Israel. The hub is working with Israeli and Arab experts, including Palestinian, 7. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven to support work and build partnerships in the quick-growing and Lesmahagow) (Lab): If he will encourage Israelis Arab internet sector. and Palestinians to participate in projects which bring them together and build a new generation of leaders Grahame M. Morris: May I draw the Minister’s attention committed to peace and dialogue. [905694] to comments made last week by the Israeli deputy 10. Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): What steps his Defence Minister, Moshe Yalom, a Likud party MP Department is taking to support projects that foster and close ally of Prime Minister Netanyahu. He said co-operation and co-existence between Israelis and about President Abbas: Palestinians. [905697] “He is a partner for discussion; a partner for managing the conflict. I am not looking for a solution, I am looking for a way to 11. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Whether manage the conflict and maintain relations in a way that works he has discussed with his Israeli counterpart the for our interests.” content of the debate in the House on 13 October 2014 Has the Foreign Secretary discussed those comments on Palestine and Israel; what recent discussions he has with Israeli officials? had with his Israeli counterpart on the future of the peace process; and if he will make a statement. [905698] Mr Ellwood: We take on board the comments made, and it is interesting to note that on Yalom’s visit to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign United States, no senior representation was there to and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): Despite meet him. That is perhaps a reflection of how out of the tragic events during the summer, we remain committed sync those comments were. As the Foreign Secretary to supporting efforts for peace. Our embassy in Tel Aviv has reiterated, it is important that we focus on humanitarian and the British consulate general in Jerusalem work efforts, which were discussed at the Gaza donor conference closely with all sectors of society, including the ultra- in Cairo, which I attended. Then we should see an Orthodox communities, Israeli Arabs and Palestinian immediate return to negotiations. communities affected by the occupation, to build constituencies for peace. 16. [905703] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Even strong supporters of the state of Israel are Mr McCann: I thank the Minister for his answer, but concerned that building on the west bank is likely to on an International Development Committee visit to postpone the peaceful dialogue that we all want to see. the middle east earlier this year, it was noted that the What is the Government’s position on that? conflict fund had insufficient funding to support groups that were promoting peace from both sides. I urge the Minister to expand the conflict fund pool and look Mr Ellwood: The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary again at organisations such as Cherish, Parents Circle and I have condemned the building in the occupied and Middle East Education Through Technology, which territories. Such building certainly makes it more difficult are trying to get peace in the region. for Israel’s friends to defend it against accusations that it is not taking the process for peace seriously. We very Mr Ellwood: Certainly, the Department for International much encourage all sides to come to the table. I visited Development, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office the E1 area on my recent visit, and it was clear what and the Ministry of Defence are keen to receive strong difficulties this building would cause in the conurbation applications for the conflict, stability and security fund—as between Ramallah, Hebron and Bethlehem. We discourage the conflict fund is now called—for joint projects that the building of any further settlements there. bring Palestinians and Israelis together to achieve peace. This is the first time I have heard that there are issues to Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Illegal do with the funding. I will certainly look at it and write settlements are not just about how to defend the Israeli to the hon. Gentleman. Government. Surely, the result of such settlements is to put the possibility of a two-state solution further and Ian Austin: It is important to step up the work that further into the future, to the extent that it could be the Minister outlined, because the only way to resolve argued that such a solution has now been completely this conflict is through a stable, two-state solution with undermined. Does my hon. Friend accept that no leader 163 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 164 of the Palestinians could accept a solution that, for the rouble’s falling by 20% against the dollar since example, made it impossible for a Palestinian state to 1 January. The fall in the oil price is piling further have East Jerusalem as its capital? pressure on the Russian economy.

Mr Ellwood: The issues raised by such settlements are Jonathan Reynolds: What is the Foreign Secretary’s very serious indeed, but we must not allow them to considered assessment of the relationship between the deflect from the bigger issue of reaching an actual dependence of some of our European partners on settlement. It is possible for land swaps to take place Russian energy supplies, and the effectiveness and robustness and, as my right hon. and learned Friend implies, what of the sanctions that we have pursued against Russia? is happening is illegal under article 46 of the Hague regulations. However, we do not want people to be distracted by the settlements; we want them to come to Mr Hammond: The sanctions are robust. I think that the table and restart the negotiations. the important relationship is between the dependence on Russian energy supplies and the robustness of the James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): position of some of our partners on the question of Does the Minister agree that the key point is for the maintaining those sanctions. Fortunately, the sanctions Israelis and the Palestinians to get round the negotiating that are in place will last until March or May, depending table to discuss a two-state solution without preconditions, on the type of sanction involved, before any opportunity reflecting Israel’s security interests and the legitimate arises to debate their renewal or otherwise. That means aspirations of the Palestinians? that, at the very least, we shall get through the winter with the sanctions in place. Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend’s question illustrates the complexity of the situation. We do require leadership Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): We hear that on both sides. From Israel we require a commitment to today, having apparently endorsed the main Ukrainian dialogue and to avoiding all actions that undermine elections, Moscow has yet again reiterated its support prospects for peace, including settlement activity, while for separate elections in Luhansk and Donetsk, thus the Palestinian Authority must show leadership in undermining the peace process. Does the Foreign Secretary recommitting itself to the dialogue and establishing think that that should lead the European Union to itself as the authoritative voice in Gaza. review the level of sanctions that is appropriate, and, if necessary, enhance it? Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The Arab peace initiative could prove vital in assisting a move towards Mr Hammond: I think that the correct response is the essential two-state solution for Israel and the long- simply to ignore, and refuse to recognise, the results of suffering Palestinian people. Does the Minister agree any elections that were organised illegally by the separatists. that in the light of yesterday’s welcome Tunisian election results, which were good news not only for the Tunisian 24. [905711] Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Sanctions people but for the wider Arab world, it is right for such should be a means to a diplomatic end. These sanctions regional initiatives to be considered as a matter of are clearly having an impact on the Russian economy, urgency? but can the Secretary of State update the House on what diplomatic reaction there has been from President Mr Ellwood: I think that those are wise words. I have Putin in the light of the pressure on his economy? congratulated Tunisia on the journey it has made, bearing in mind that it was responsible for the very start of the Arab Spring. It is a small ray of hope in a very complex Mr Hammond: I do not think that the phrases area, and I hope that other nations will take a lead “diplomatic reaction” and “President Putin” usually go from it. hand in hand. There has certainly been a reaction from President Putin, but I am not sure whether it could be Several hon. Members rose— described as diplomatic. Channels are open. The Germans, in particular, maintain Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry not to have a close dialogue with the Kremlin. I think that the accommodated more colleagues on question 7, but both Kremlin understands, and needs to understand, the questions and answers have been extremely long. determination of the European Union to stand firm, and the fact that it must honour its obligations under EU Sanctions (Russia) the Minsk agreement. There is nothing else to discuss at the moment. 8. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ Co-op): What assessment he has made of the ISIL effectiveness of EU sanctions against Russia in encouraging a change of approach by that country towards eastern Ukraine. [905695] 9. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth UK military strikes in Iraq in helping to tackle the Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): EU sanctions are having advance of ISIL. [905696] a clear impact on Russia’s economy. Capital flight has increased, and Russian access to western financial markets 14. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): What is severely constrained. Sanctions are estimated to have assessment he has made of the effect of coalition slowed GDP growth by 1%, and to have contributed to airstrikes on ISIL. [905701] 165 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 166

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth focused on the Free Syrian Army, or whether support Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): The United Kingdom is for other opposition groups is being considered as part part of a coalition of more than 60 countries supporting of this exercise? the Government of Iraq against ISIL, and RAF strikes are assisting Iraqi ground forces. A number of strategically Mr Hammond: We will be working closely with our important towns in the North have been liberated by American allies, and General John Allen in his newly the peshmerga, but the scale of the problem remains appointed role will be the overall co-ordinator of this significant. The coalition’s air intervention has halted programme, but the Americans have made it very clear the rapid ISIL advance, but it alone is not capable of that while the Free Syrian Army will be part of this rolling back ISIL’s gains. Ultimately, the fight against programme of training and equipping, the whole thing ISIL in Iraq must be led by the Iraqis themselves, with will not operate under the umbrella of the Free Syrian the new Government ensuring that there is an inclusive Army; there will be other organisations who are judged and unified response. to be moderate and share our objectives who will be able to participate. Sandra Osborne: The Secretary of State has rightly Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): But does acknowledged that the air strikes are only one element the Secretary of State accept that in Syria it is going to of a wider political and military strategy, including be months, if not years, before the Syrian moderate support for the creation of a more representative Iraqi opposition will be strong enough to push back the Government. Having just returned from Iraq with the Islamic State terrorists in the north? Is there not a Foreign Affairs Committee, I am aware of ongoing fundamental gap in international strategy, including disputes between Irbil and Baghdad, which may well that of the British Government, if that is what they are have a negative effect on the achievement of that aim. relying on to remove Islamic State in Syria? What progress does the Foreign Secretary think can be made, and what are the implications if the situation Mr Hammond: My right hon. and learned Friend is cannot be resolved? absolutely right; it will take time—it will take time to train and organise the force that will be able to do this. Mr Philip Hammond: There are still outstanding disputes In the meantime, we will use coalition air strikes to between Irbil and Baghdad, but, if I may say so having contain and degrade ISIL, but defeating it on the ground been there two and a half weeks ago myself, the mood will take Syrian boots, and training those Syrian boots music between Irbil and Baghdad is much better now is going to take time. than it has been for months, probably years. Kurdish Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): During a visit by Ministers are now in Baghdad. There is a serious discussion the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs to Iraq and going on about the division of oil revenues, which is one Kurdistan last week we were told of the gratitude of the of the crucial outstanding issues. I told the House a Iraqis and the Kurds towards the British Government week or so ago, and I repeat again today, that I am for the help they are giving. We also saw the peshmerga optimistic about relationships between Irbil and Baghdad being trained with the new weaponry that has been sent at least in the medium term. to Kurdistan, but they are taking enormous hits. They are very brave as we all know, but they are taking Stephen Hammond Important though air strikes are, enormous hits and they need more weapons; that is the of course alone they are not going to defeat ISIL. In his message they wanted us to get across. answer to the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) my right hon. Friend explained the Mr Hammond: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady political progress being made in Iraq. Will he update the and she will not be surprised to learn that I heard a very House on how he sees the importance of political similar message when I was in Irbil a couple of weeks progress in Syria in also defeating ISIL? ago. The Prime Minister has appointed Lieutenant General Sir Simon Mayall as his security envoy to the Kurdistan Regional Government. Part of his task is to assess the Mr Philip Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely needs of the peshmerga, and their abilities as well—there right. In the fullness of time, pushing ISIL back in Iraq, is no point giving them weapons they cannot maintain which is our first priority, will not be sufficient to defeat or use effectively. We have supplied them with some that organisation; there will have to be political progress heavy calibre machine guns, which they are now deploying in Syria as well. At the moment we are focused on to good effect, but we are constantly open to suggestions ensuring the consolidation of the Syrian moderate from the peshmerga about any additional requirements opposition and the organisation of the additional training they may have. and equipping that the US Congress has now agreed to finance for Syrian moderate opposition fighters. Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The point has just been made that the peshmerga are defending Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire hundreds of miles of frontier with just rifles, and what South) (Lab): Speaking of the campaign against they desperately need is equipment, equipment and ISIL, the US director of national intelligence recently equipment. To what extent is the Foreign Office liaising testified that the Syrian opposition is composed of at with our allies to make sure there is not a duplication of least 1,500 separate militias, and a recent US congressional equipment and to enable us to supply the very important report went further in claiming that the Free Syrian equipment they need? Army does not actually refer to any Mr Hammond: There is co-ordination with allies. “organised command and control structure with national reach”, Part of the point of the US appointing General John so can the Foreign Secretary set out whether the Allen to act as a co-ordinator for the coalition is to Government’s own scoping exercise that is under way is ensure that we do these things efficiently and effectively. 167 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 168

My right hon. Friend is right to suggest that the peshmerga The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth are defending 1,000 km of frontier in what is effectively Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I last raised the subject of ISIL-controlled territory.They are doing that extraordinarily political prisoners with Burma’s Deputy Foreign Minister bravely, but there are still significant deficiencies in their Thant Kyaw in June. We welcome the release of more weaponry, and we must look collectively at those and than 1,000 political prisoners since 2011, but we are address them as rapidly as we can. concerned by the recent rise in politically motivated arrests and we continue to lobby for the unconditional Kurdish Peshmerga release of all political prisoners. Sir Bob Russell: I am grateful to the Minister for that 12. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What steps answer. He has confirmed that the number of political the Government are taking to support the Kurdish prisoners in Burma is going up. Will he tell us how peshmerga. [905699] many additional political prisoners have been arrested there this year? The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): As I have just said, the Mr Swire: Since 8 October, 3,000 petty criminals have Prime Minister has appointed Lieutenant General Sir Simon been released, as well as 91 in August and 109 in Mayall as his security envoy to the Kurdistan region of September, including child soldiers. The answer, however, Iraq. At the request of the Government of Iraq, we is that one political prisoner in Burma is one too many, have delivered over 300 tonnes of supplies to Irbil. This and we will continue to make that point to visiting includes over 100 tonnes of weapons and equipment Ministers, who come here fairly regularly these days. from the UK. We are instructing peshmerga soldiers on the operation of the heavy machine guns that we have Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): As well as raising delivered, as well as on counter-IED techniques. the subject of political prisoners, will the Minister also raise the subject of the killing of the journalist Aung Nick de Bois: I thank the Secretary of State for that Naing by the Burmese army? answer. Does he believe that more could be done by regional states to support the fight against ISIS by the Mr Swire: I shall certainly raise that matter; we have peshmerga? Does he also believe that more could be raised it already, but I shall give the hon. Lady an done to ensure that we retain the support of our constituents update on the results of our investigations. who rightly think that more should be done by the regions? Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The Minister has rightly raised concerns that the headline figures for the release of political prisoners are perhaps not what Mr Hammond: Yes, but let me answer that question they seem. Concerns have been raised about conditions slightly more widely. The situation in Iraq, including in being attached to the release of prisoners, for example, the Kurdistan region, is complex. There is a lot of and about the continuing arrests of human rights defenders history and a lot of baggage in the region. While the and journalists. Does he share the concern of the United neighbouring states are all—remarkably—aligned in Nations special rapporteur on human rights about signs their desire to see ISIL defeated, the historical pattern of possible backtracking by the Burmese regime? What of relationships and enmities between the different groups can we do to ensure that Burma remains on the road to means that we have to take care when deciding who democracy as we approach next year’s elections? does what and how they do it. We need to be sensitive to the context of the region. Mr Swire: As the hon. Lady knows, we have continuing concerns, not least in Rakhine and Kachin. Only yesterday Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): This is not just I was discussing these concerns with the Archbishop of about Iraq and Syria. As the Foreign Secretary knows, Canterbury, who has just been there. The big goal in all ISIL-backed groups have also been successful in bringing this is the parliamentary elections next year. We will Yemen to the brink of civil war. What further action continue to do everything we can to ensure that they are can be taken to help the Governments of the whole inclusive and credible elections, from which can flow a region? better and more democratic Burma for all the component parts of that wonderful country. Mr Hammond: Specifically on Yemen, we are very concerned about the security situation there and we Southern Lebanon continue to support the legitimate Government in Sana’a and to work with regional partners. I had a meeting 15. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What recent with Gulf Co-operation Council partners the week assessment he has made of the security situation in before last, at which we considered carefully the options southern Lebanon. [905702] for supporting the legitimate regime in Sana’a against the Houthi coup. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): We Political Prisoners (Burma) regularly assess the security situation in southern Lebanon, as well as the rest of the country. We are concerned about the continued low-level violence, but commend 13. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): When he last the crucial role of the United Nations Interim Force in raised with the Burmese Government the subject of Lebanon—UNIFIL—in maintaining the peace and political prisoners in Burma. [905700] de-escalating conflict when it occurs. 169 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 170

Michael Fabricant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign countries—the United States in Liberia, France in Guinea Secretary will know from his previous job that Iran and the UK in Sierra Leone—are best positioned to provides funds and arms to insurgents who previously deliver an effect on the ground. One thing we are trying killed and maimed British soldiers in Afghanistan and to do is get partner countries to plug in to the framework Iraq. Iran is now doing the same with Hezbollah in that we have already put on the ground. So we are southern Lebanon. What steps can we take to stop Iran building these 700 beds, we have a logistics operation in being such a dangerous body in that part of the world? place and where we are told, for example, by Australia, “I can give you 50 clinical staff”, we can plug those in Mr Ellwood: We are watching the situation carefully, straight away; they do not have to set up an operation but we currently judge that neither Israel nor Hezbollah on the ground. wants to escalate the situation in southern Lebanon. Both sides have chosen to make public statements following Mr Alexander: Let me ask a little more about the recent incidents, and UNIFIL-led tripartite meetings operation on the ground. It is, of course, right that we involving the Lebanese armed forces, the Israeli defence acknowledge the extraordinary work being undertaken force and the UN are arranged, and have successfully by British aid workers, officials and troops based in the reduced tension and prevented escalation. region, who are putting themselves at considerable personal risk. I also pay tribute to the International Development Topical Questions Secretary, who sent an important signal by travelling there with British troops. Of course it is the responsibility T1. [905678] Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): of the Government to support their efforts and to take If he will make a statement on his departmental every possible precaution with the safety of British responsibilities. personnel, so will the Foreign Secretary set out what measures are in place to support the diplomatic and The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth consular staff, as well as the military, who are currently Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): Since the summer, the based in west Africa? Foreign Office has responded to multiple crises. The UK has joined the coalition against ISIL in Iraq and Mr Hammond: That is a very good question. I can tell Syria, pledged £20 million to help rebuild Gaza, led a the right hon. Gentleman that we have slimmed down tough European response to Russian aggression in Ukraine, our diplomatic staff, removing from Freetown people and been front and centre of the international fight who are medically vulnerable and dependants who do against Ebola. Beyond those immediate crises, my priority not need to be there. We are constructing, and will have is to put the national interest at the heart of everything in operation within the next 10 days, a dedicated 12-bed the Foreign Office does: to redouble the FCO’s efforts unit, run by British military medics, for the treatment of to help British companies abroad; to lay the ground for international health care workers and British nationals a renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the European to a western standard of care. We also have a medevac Union; and to ensure that the Foreign Office builds capability, which has been pretty thin over the past few stability overseas to maintain our security at home. months but which by the end of this will month will have surged in capability so that we would be able to Mr Turner: What steps is the Minister taking to bring deal with any foreseeable level of medevac requirement more allies to make a significant contribution to the from Sierra Leone. fight against Ebola? T3. [905680] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Mr Hammond: The UK is leading on the Ebola Cleveleys) (Con): Ministers will be aware that Boko response in Sierra Leone, and the British people should Haram continues to detain 200 young women in be extremely proud of what we have delivered: we have Nigeria and that the country becomes progressively so far pledged nearly £250 million; we are building more unstable and divided as the weeks go by. What 700 beds in the country; we have about 750 service can the UK do diplomatically to try to support more personnel deployed in support of that operation; and effective government in Nigeria? we are lobbying furiously for support from both European Union partners and other countries around the world. I Mr Hammond: As my hon. Friend knows, an election am pleased to say that that lobbying effort is beginning is taking place in Nigeria next year and, in the pre-election to bear fruit, with significant pledges of both money season, it is quite difficult to change government behaviour. and, more importantly, clinical workers to support the We are working closely with the Nigerian security services, effort we are carrying out in Sierra Leone. military and intelligence services to try to track down the Chibok schoolgirls and other people who have been Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire kidnapped by Boko Haram. South) (Lab): May I welcome, on behalf of the Opposition, the UK’s £205 million contribution to helping tackle T2. [905679] Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It the spread of Ebola, and of course the additional EU is vital that the countries affected by Ebola get the right resources secured at last week’s Council meeting? Will medical, logistical and engineering personnel they need the Foreign Secretary set out how quickly those resources not only to deal with the immediate situation but to from other EU member states will be utilised? The rebuild their health systems. What advice and training commitments are important but, as he recognises, it is are the Government giving to British nationals who are vital that action is taken on the ground in west Africa. travelling to the region to help fight this virus?

Mr Hammond: Many of the financial commitments Mr Hammond: The British Army medical corps has that have been made are commitments to support the established a facility just outside York to train people UN fund. The UN recognises that the three framework who have volunteered to work in UK facilities in Sierra 171 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 172

Leone. These people have nursing qualifications and those results, will he let the House know what aid the experience, but they need training around the specific UK Government can give to Tunisia to ensure that that precautions that are required to be taken in relation to country becomes a beacon for democracy in the middle protective equipment to prevent infection by the Ebola east? virus. Ensuring that people understand how to protect themselves is the key to slowing down the transmission Mr Ellwood: It is right that we again pay tribute to rate of this disease. Tunisia for the journey that it has taken. It is operating in a tough neighbourhood, but it is not yet out of the T7. [905685] Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) woods, as there are still concerns about jihadist threats (Con): Iran’s recent execution of a 26-year-old woman and about what is happening on its borders. But the has attracted international condemnation. It is a tragic journey it has made is thanks to its strong civil society reminder that Iran continues to lead the world in and its direct approach in wanting to have elections—first executions per capita and retains one of the world’s parliamentary and then presidential. We are working worst human rights record. In the light of that, what with it through our Arab Partnership programme. Funding discussions has the Minister had with the Iranian from the Deauville Partnership and the Westminster Government and the UN about upholding the rights of Foundation for Democracy is helping to support women in Iran? governance in Tunisia.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con): A transatlantic free and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): The trade deal would be a massive win for the UK and the Prime Minister raised that matter at bilateral talks with world, but there have been concerns about procurement Iran during the UN General Assembly meeting. They and health care, among others, that need addressing, were the first such talks to take place in many, many and, I believe, debunking. Will the Minister give us an years. If Iran is interested in moving forward and update on progress and consider making a statement on participating in a more responsible attitude in the region, this important issue? it is that sort of behaviour that needs to be curbed. We will continue placing pressure on the country to change The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth its ways. Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for introducing this, because it is time to slay a T4. [905681] Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): lot of urban myths that have crept up around the There are massive asks on both the Palestinian and transatlantic trade and investment partnership. If TTIP Israeli leadership in taking us to a place where we can goes through, it will mean an economic prize worth up have meaningful peace discussions. Will the Minister to £400 for each household in the UK, and £10 billion reconsider his earlier comment that the issue of to our economy. If we delve into the details and look at settlement building was something of a distraction, the investor state disputes settlements and so forth, and that we should not be fixated on it. It is no more a there is absolutely no reason to think that TTIP can distraction than achieving peace in the region and undermine the NHS or anything else. security for the Israelis. Mr Philip Hammond: I would like to answer this T6. [905684] Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): question, because I know exactly what the Under-Secretary There are accusations that some UK companies are of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth being short-changed on contracts associated with the East (Mr Ellwood) was trying to say earlier on. The construction of World cup venues in Qatar, and even settlements are illegal and building them is intended to claims that some moneys unpaid have been siphoned undermine the prospects of the peace process. We must off to Syria and into the hands of ISIL. Will the not allow that to happen. These are buildings; buildings Minister urgently look into these allegations and offer can be transferred and demolished. Where these buildings support to UK firms regarding their reimbursement by are built must not be allowed to define where the final the Qatari royalty, Government or businesses? settlement line can go. We must be very clear about that. Mr Ellwood: I was in Doha last week and I raised this Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I very much very issue. Qatar has what is called the kafala system, welcome the comments condemning the illegal settlements, which is now being upgraded, and the hon. Gentleman but if the Government’s response to calls for sanctions may be aware of it. It is being replaced to give greater against Israel is “not yet”, how many additional illegal rights to migrant workers, of whom there are 1.3 million settlements are required for the answer to be “now”? in Qatar, but it is also giving responsibilities to the employers to make sure that they look after them. It is Mr Ellwood: The Foreign Secretary has just made it something that will be raised this week when the Emir clear that we do not want the settlement issue to hog the of Qatar visits this country. wicket here. We need to focus on the humanitarian efforts. Gaza will face an emergency in a number of Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I welcome the weeks when the winter weather approaches. That is a contributions by UK doctors and others to reconstruction priority. Then we need both sides to come back to the in Gaza, but is not the cycle almost bizarre? We fund table. That is our focus at the moment, and we do not the United Nations Relief and Works Agency to do want to be distracted by the settlement issue. valuable work in building schools and homes, the Israeli defence force destroys some of them, and then regularly T5. [905683] Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The we pay to have them rebuilt after a long period of election results in Tunisia at the weekend are welcome argument about whether the cement will be used for and prove that secular and non-secular parties can co- the schools or for tunnels. What can we do to resolve exist in the middle east. As the Minister has welcomed this cycle? 173 Oral Answers28 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 174

Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We Mr Philip Hammond: None of my right hon. and do not want to repeat this cycle. In six years, we have hon. Friends is leaping to their feet to give the hon. been round this buoy three times. A different mood is Lady the detailed answer that she requires, and it would developing. We are picking up the agenda that was probably be best if I offer to write to her. arrived at in April with John Kerry. As I mentioned, we had a successful donor conference in Cairo, and there is Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): My constituent growing pressure on Israel to come to the table, but also Bill Irving and six other British citizens are still in India, on the Palestinian Authority to show proper leadership a year after being taken off their ship. Although they in Gaza, and that was reflected in its cabinet meeting are now out on bail, Billy is effectively trapped in a hotel there two weeks ago. room and is in financial difficulties because he cannot work. What help can my right hon. Friend give Billy T8. [905686] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I have and the other British citizens to speed up the legal just returned from Mali, which continues to face real process and assist with the hotel bills? security threats for al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. The military commander of MINUSMA says that just Mr Swire: They are certainly well represented by their 30 bilingual English-French speaking staff officers Members of Parliament, whom I have met regularly. I would make a huge difference to the Malian army’s have also raised the case regularly, and at the highest response to these threats, and the EU training mission levels, with the Indian authorities, as have other Government says that it needs to continue beyond May of next year. Ministers—the Deputy Prime Minister did so in August What consideration are the Government giving to when he met Prime Minister Modi. We cannot interfere increasing our support for the Government in Mali? in the Indian legal process, but we continue to press for the case to be resolved quickly, and our consular staff Mr Philip Hammond: I have discussed this with my continue to provide them and their families with full French opposite number and we have made it clear that consular assistance. we will support the French proposal to extend the mandate of the EU training mission in Mali. I am not Mr Speaker: The House, and indeed the nation, can aware of any request to us to provide further staff now hear from Sir Gerald Kaufman. officers to the mission, but I will speak to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Will the Government condemn in the strongest terms Would the Government welcome a visit from the Swedish the current efforts by the Israeli Government and settler prosecutor if she were to seek to question Julian Assange movements to divide the area of al-Aqsa mosque, one in the Ecuadorian embassy in London? of the holiest places in the whole of the Muslim religion? Does the Foreign Secretary concur with the US State Mr Swire: My hon. Friend will know that the Swedish Department’s statement last week that Israel is poisoning prosecutor is, quite rightly, a fiercely independent lady, the atmosphere and making support difficult, even from and independent of the Executive, as she would imagine. its closest allies? These are matters for the prosecutor to decide on, but if she wished to travel here to question Mr Assange in the Mr Philip Hammond: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s embassy in London, we would do absolutely everything concern. Anything that makes it more difficult to reach to facilitate that. Indeed, we would actively welcome it. a peace settlement is extremely unhelpful and we condemn it. We want both sides to work for a sustainable peace. I T9. [905687] Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): think that the degree of frustration now being experienced, Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on recent even among Israel’s closest friends, is expressed by the actions he has taken to tackle anti-LGBTI legislation, response he referred to from the United States, hitherto particularly among our Commonwealth friends? often seen as an uncritical supporter of Israeli actions. 175 28 OCTOBER 2014 176

Points of Order School Governors (Appointment) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.37 pm No. 23) Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose— 12.38 pm Mr Speaker: We must now make some progress, but Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I beg to move, not before the jack-in-the-box is satisfied—the hon. Gentleman is bobbing up and down with purpose—and That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require that school governors be appointed on the basis of experience relevant to the we hear a point of order from Dr Julian Lewis. role; and for connected purposes. Dr Lewis: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank I would first like to thank all the school governors you for that build-up. May I ask whether you have had across the land, because the role they play in ensuring any notification, either from the Foreign Secretary or that our schools are well managed, well led and well from the Defence Secretary, that we will be having a planned is enormous. The tribute I pay to them is dedicated statement on the ending of the campaign in heartfelt. They also contribute massively to local Afghanistan, because such a statement would give communities, and that, too, needs to be recognised. opportunities to pay tribute to the fallen and to the Our schools are going through a changing landscape. wounded, particularly among hon. Members’ constituents, There are more schools with increasing autonomy than and to debate issues about the way in which the campaign ever before, and that direction of travel is continuing. was fought? That is quite right, because there is support across this House for academy status, and other schools are beginning Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a canny enough to benefit from more autonomy. The structures behind fellow to know that he has now, for his own part, those schools are changing as well, with the introduction substantially achieved his objective, but I know him of the regional commissioners, the changing role of well enough to know that he will want lots of other local authorities and, indeed, the emerging debate on colleagues to have comparable opportunities. academy chains, and that means that governors and governance are becoming increasingly important. Another The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth driver has been the role of Ofsted in focusing on the Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond) rose— importance of leadership and governance as part of the inspection process by making the latter category one of Mr Speaker: The Foreign Secretary’s excitement knows the four that will determine whether a school is graded no bounds as he seeks to respond. in the way it wants to be. Already in Westminster we have seen a large number Mr Hammond: Further to that point of order, of actions under the auspices of those who want improved Mr Speaker. My hon. Friend raises an important and governance across the piece. The Education Committee—I interesting point. I am sure that Members of the House see that its Chair, the hon. Member for Beverley and will want an opportunity to pay tribute to the service Holderness (Mr Stuart), is in his place—has conducted and commitment that our servicemen and women have an inquiry into school governance and made a number shown in Afghanistan. I will undertake to discuss with of recommendations to which the Government have, the Leader of the House whether such an opportunity quite properly, responded. I established the all-party could be found. parliamentary group on education governance and leadership almost as soon as I arrived here, with the Mr Speaker: I am very grateful to the Foreign Secretary purpose of talking about school governors and ensuring for that extremely helpful reply. that their role is properly understood and develops in line with education policy, and that we recruit good governors. Another thing that has happened is the Inspiring Governors initiative whereby various organisations have formed an alliance, including the Department for Education, the CBI, employment and education bodies, and a whole range of others. They have come together to make sure that we can promote governance to people who may not necessarily have thought of being a governor before. I am running through this activity to demonstrate that there is a lot of thought behind what I am proposing in this Bill—thought that is underpinned by substantial work. Other bodies that are key for our governors include the National Governors Association, the Wellcome Trust, the School Governors’ One-Stop Shop, and Wild Search. They have all contributed to the wider debate about the role of governors. So where do we need to be? First, we want school governing bodies to be flexible. We want them to be able to decide how they are constructed, how they develop their plans, and how they interface effectively with their schools. The need for more autonomy for school governing 177 School Governors (Appointment)28 OCTOBER 2014 School Governors (Appointment) 178 bodies is recognised and required. Strong accountability able to address certain situations. The regional of head teachers matters. A governing body needs to be commissioners may well want to consider that suggestion able and willing to take on a head teacher who is not as their role develops during the course of the current delivering—that is absolutely critical. We do not want reforms. It is important that we have governors to weak governing bodies; we want strong and supportive choose from, rather than have to search for somebody governing bodies that are nevertheless capable of making who will do the job reluctantly. That is essential for a harsh decision if it ever becomes necessary. Nobody good governance in all areas, certainly in schools. wants to do that without forethought, but the governing We need to think about the transparency of decision body needs to be capable of backing up the decision if making. The more people understand what governors necessary. do and the more they see the responsibility they have We need to make sure that strategic thinking takes and how it can make a difference, the better. Transparency place in schools. Governing bodies have to set the scene, of school governing bodies is important. the ethos and the direction of travel in making sure that A further next step for school governing bodies to the head teacher and everybody else is aware of the take is on the need to be more corporate in how they process. It is also important to engage with the wider conduct their affairs. We have already seen that pattern community. No school can survive successfully without emerge and develop in the further education sector, so I proper engagement in the community, and the governing think we should see more of it in the school sector, body is part of that process. An effective governing because it will encourage the sorts of skills, characteristics body is the type of structure with good communication and processes I have already discussed. skills that can make the difference in this whole field. In short, this Bill would make it easier, more attractive We also want better links with employers. We must and rewarding to be a school governor, because we want cultivate circumstances in which schools are talking to the right people with the right skills, enthusiasm and businesses much more readily and frequently about the motives to make sure not only that learning is a school’s requirements that businesses have. If we are going to top priority, but that its other characteristics can be start measuring the performance of schools by the encouraged and developed. destinations of their pupils, we need to be clear that Finally, we are enormously thankful to those governors schools bear some responsibility in making sure that who currently serve, but we need to move to the next their pupils know where they can go and where they stage, which is a new shape for education, with more should go, and are equipped to get there. autonomy and responsibility. That will, of course, be a Getting the right people is an important mission. We greater challenge for governing bodies, and that is why need to enable employees of businesses to perform on we need governors of the calibre I have described. governing bodies if they agree to do so. As the Department Question put and agreed to. for Education has acknowledged, that may require an amendment to the Employment Rights Act 1996, and I Ordered, would certainly want this Bill to incorporate that. We That Neil Carmichael, Alistair Burt, Mr Graham need to raise the profile of governors so that they can be Stuart, Richard Graham, Mr Robert Syms, Sir Alan recognised properly. I include national honours in that, Beith, Fiona Bruce, Matthew Hancock, Chris Skidmore, but also civic responsibilities, civic duties and civic Jeremy Lefroy and Robert Jenrick present the Bill. recognition. Neil Carmichael accordingly presented the Bill. Strong chairs of governors are absolutely essential Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on and it is worth considering selecting as chair somebody Friday 23 January 2015 (Bill 109). who was not previously on the governing body. We need to choose the best people, not wait for them to come Mr Speaker: We will have to delete the name of through the pipeline. We need an accelerated process to Mr Hancock, because he now occupies the illustrious enable them to get where they need to be. That needs to post of Minister of State. be debated. We also need to have a rapid response to failing Neil Carmichael: You are absolutely right, Mr Speaker, schools. The Government are taking action, but some and I don’t know why he is on this list, because he local authorities are not necessarily doing so as fast as shouldn’t be. they should be. The introduction of an interim executive board has often yielded good results and turned schools The Minister of State, Department for Work and around, but there is no use in waiting for things to get so Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): He’s a great man! bad that turning them around is such a big job. We should be acting swiftly. Governing bodies have role to Mr Speaker: He may be a great man—that is a play by recognising when they have themselves lost divisible proposition, but what is not a divisible proposition control and need some outside help. is that he cannot sponsor a 10-minute rule motion. The hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) has enough I want to suggest some further steps to pave the way. supporters and he need not trouble his head about the We need pools of tested and proven governors who are matter any further. 179 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 180 State for Welfare Reform For many months under this Government, disabled Opposition Day people have endured hardship, hostility and fear. They have lived with the consequences of Ministers’ decisions, [8TH ALLOTTED DAY] which are causing them and their families real pain. As things have got worse, they have lost all faith that Ministers understand their lives. They do not believe Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State that the Government are on their side. They have become for Welfare Reform (Disabled People) anxious and despairing, desperate and insecure. The remarks of the noble Lord Freud last month that 12.49 pm disabled people were not worth the minimum wage sparked an outpouring of anger and outrage. That has Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I beg to prompted this debate today, for those remarks go to the move, heart of the collapse in trust in this Government among That this House notes the comments of the Parliamentary disabled people, not just because they might be thought Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform, Lord Freud, on 30 September 2014 that the work of disabled people is not worth a plausible statement of Government policy or of what the minimum wage; believes that these comments have further the Government really think deep down—that is what a undermined trust among disabled people in this Government’s Freudian slip is, after all—but because disabled people policies, a trust which had already been damaged by delays in already know from the effect that the Government’s assessments for a personal independence payment, problems with policies are having on their lives that they are not valued work capability assessments, and the poor performance of policies by this Government. aimed at helping disabled people into work; further notes that the conduct of Lord Freud had already damaged that trust through Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will his oversight of the housing benefit social sector size criteria which has had a particularly severe impact on disabled people, my hon. Friend use this debate to try to flush out details many of whom have nowhere else to move to and need extra room not just about Freud, but about other aspects of disability, for medical equipment or carers; and therefore concludes that this such as the disabled students allowance? Can we find House has no confidence in the Parliamentary Under-Secretary out whether the Government have taken away that of State for Welfare Reform; and calls on the Prime Minister to allowance or partially put it back? They should have dismiss him. been proud of the fact that every disabled student in I offer the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member this country had the ability to go to higher education, for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) who is unable to be in but that has been wiped away. the Chamber today. This afternoon, the eyes of millions of disabled people, Kate Green: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his their families, friends and carers are on this House. intervention. This afternoon, we in this House have a They include people such as Ciara, who has a learning chance to send exactly such messages on behalf of disability. I had the pleasure of meeting her in Parliament disabled people, as well as to send messages to them. I a few weeks ago. She works full time for Mencap. When hope that the whole House will embrace this opportunity she heard of the noble Lord Freud’s remarks about to state that we value them as equal citizens, believe we disabled people, she said: should treat them with respect, recognise the worth and “People with a disability are often made to feel like second potential of every person, and will not tolerate an class citizens and face many barriers when trying to receive the attack on their dignity or their rights. same rights as everyone else, especially in employment. Having a politician place further barriers to us being included is incredibly John Howell (Henley) (Con): Does the hon. Lady upsetting and frankly quite frightening.” accept that overall spending on disability benefits will be higher in the period to 2018 than it was under her Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Government? Will the hon. Lady give way? Kate Green: Of course it is right that the benefits bill Kate Green: Not yet. No, I will not. for disabled people has risen under this Government, Ciara continued: but it remains Ministers’ ambition to cut that spend. “I hope politicians realise that people with a disability should The former Minister with responsibility for disabled be encouraged to become active citizens, and not to be discriminated people, the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead against for their disability, and I want to call for a full explanation (Mike Penning), told me in a written answer on 14 July of how these comments are deemed acceptable in this day and that the Government were on track to achieve billions age.” of pounds of savings in cuts to the personal independence I hope that this debate will give Ciara some answers. payment by 2017-18. Ministers need to be clear about whether they are spending more on disabled people or Mr Stuart: There are 116,000 more disabled people in are in practice aiming to cut their benefits. work now than there were a year ago. Is it not time that the Labour party stopped using the disabled to smear Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Does my its opponents, and supported this Government’s and hon. Friend agree that what is so shocking about Lord Lord Freud’s efforts to get people mainstream jobs, Freud’s comments is the simple lack of common humanity rather than leave them stuck in joblessness or Potemkin and decency in them, which reflects the Government’s factories? attitude to disabled people as a whole? When I have asked questions about work capability assessments or Kate Green: I am astounded by that intervention Atos cancelling appointments, the Government simply immediately after I had quoted the concerns of a disabled do not know: they do not choose to find out such woman. information because they do not actually care about it. 181 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 182 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Kate Green: That is absolutely right. As I will show Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My later, on several occasions when I have asked Ministers hon. Friend is absolutely right to condemn unreservedly for information about what is happening, the answer the reprehensible comments that were made by Lord has either been that they do not know or that they do Freud at the Conservative party conference, but should not record the information at all. we not also condemn his actions? It must never be forgotten that Lord Freud is the chief champion of the The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain bedroom tax, which has condemned two thirds of disabled Duncan Smith): I have known the hon. Lady for a long people to live in poverty. time, and I am concerned by a charge she is making. Will she explain to the House why, if this matter of the Kate Green: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that clumsy and offensive words for which Lord Freud has this debate is about the Minister’s bedroom tax, which apologised were of concern to the Labour party to the disproportionately affects disabled people and their families, extent it says, Labour waited weeks after it had the with two thirds of those who are hit being disabled recording to bring it forward at Prime Minister’s questions? people, their families and their carers. It is about the Surely if Labour Members were so concerned about chaos of the personal independence payment, which is this—instead of the faux concern they are now showing— leaving thousands of people without essential support. they would have raised it immediately and demanded an It is about Ministers’ handling of the work capability apology and an explanation. Why did they not do so assessment and the abject failure of their policies to immediately rather than wait for weeks? support many disabled people into work, and it is about Kate Green: We were so taken aback and stunned by the collapse in social care and the services that support these remarks, and we considered them so offensive and people to live the lives that they want. My hon. Friend is serious, that we considered it right to bring them before right that what this afternoon’s debate is truly about is the Prime Minister in the highest forum in this land, putting the policies that Lord Freud and his colleagues this Chamber, in the very first Prime Minister’s Question have been pursuing under the microscope, and Time that we had the opportunity to do so. understanding what has gone wrong.

Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I want to go Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): In this place back to the question about increased spending. It is I have campaigned on mental health with people from unacceptable to boast of increased spending when that all parts of the Chamber, including some fabulous is due to inefficiency and the failure to deliver. In 2010, people from the Opposition. The one thing that I have the Office for Budget Responsibility expected spending learned is that people make mistakes. Sometimes people on incapacity benefit to fall. That projection has now get it wrong, like Lord Freud did, but they apologise been changed to an increase of £3 billion, which, put and are allowed to move on. Please will the hon. Lady against the sort of savings being made on disabled find some compassion for people who make mistakes people through the bedroom tax, is absolutely outrageous. and apologise? He is not a bad man. Surely nobody can boast about spending more if it is down to their own inefficiency. Kate Green: I have known Lord Freud for a number Kate Green: My hon. Friend is right. of years and I agree that, personally, he is courteous and caring. However, his remark touched a deep nerve As we start the debate this afternoon, let me say that for disabled people and we have to understand why. It is we can send a message of dignity and respect to disabled because it came in the context of the Government’s people in two ways. We can do so by voting for the policies and the effects that disabled people are experiencing. motion to make it clear that anyone who makes comments that suggest discriminating against disabled people or that demean them should not be in government, least of Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Lord Freud is an intelligent all in a role in which they make decisions day in, day out and articulate individual. He knew what he was saying that affect disabled people’s lives. We can also show our and he meant what he was saying. Does my hon. Friend feelings by the way in which we conduct this debate. The agree that Ministers, of whatever political persuasion, real reason this debate matters so much is that it is an who make such offensive remarks about disabled people opportunity for us to show disabled people that we should be kicked out of office immediately, never to understand the reason why Lord Freud’s remarks caused return? such anger and pain and that we understand what is happening in their lives. Lord Freud’s comments have Kate Green: I do think that it is difficult for someone touched a chord because disabled people are already who expresses such views to remain in government and suffering so much from the policies for which he and his in that role. ministerial colleagues are responsible. Let us examine the policy record of the Government. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I think that Let us start with the bedroom tax—Lord Freud’s brainchild. the hon. Lady is struggling to make her case. Will she Everyone knows that it is a disaster for disabled people. explain why, in 2003, the Labour party had a policy to Many disabled people have lived in their homes for get rid of the minimum wage for people who had years. They have invested in adaptations, as have their mental health problems? families and local councils. Some people need an extra room for equipment or so that an overnight carer can Kate Green: That was never our policy. Of course stay. Some people have a condition that means that they programmes exist to support disabled people who are cannot share a room with their partner. Many people on benefits to get into therapeutic work, but that is not are settled in their community, with care and concerned what the noble Lord Freud was speaking about. family and neighbours close to hand so that they can 183 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 184 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Kate Green] your new life; to have to give up work and to have less money coming in; for your partner to have to give up call for help when they need it. Now they are being work as well to care for you; and then for your PIP forced to move, to cut back on other expenditure to pay award, which should be helping with the additional the rent or to go into debt. costs associated with your impairment, to become stuck We all know of cases in our constituencies, such as in an enormous backlog? that of a disabled grandfather, Paul Rutherford, who cares for his severely disabled grandchild, Warren. Extra Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will space is needed in the family home to cope with all of my hon. Friend give way? Warren’s equipment. Paul has to rely on discretionary housing payment to pay the rent. Why should he have Kate Green: No, I will make some progress. to go through the anxiety and indignity of pleading for We heard again this morning in Westminster Hall the support that he and his family need? Have we lost all that the Minister of State, Department for Work and compassion? Have we lost all sense of people’s dignity? Pensions, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), Not only is the bedroom tax exceptionally cruel; it is is determined to bring down the waiting times for PIP failing to meet its objectives. Only about 7% of those assessments to 16 weeks. That is welcome, but he should who have been hit by the tax have been able to move to a acknowledge that it is a less ambitious timetable than smaller home. It is not saving the money that the the 12 weeks from application to decision that the Government said it would, either. Is it not time that Government initially suggested in the PIP toolkit. Ministers admitted that this Freud tax is not working Meanwhile, disabled people are left high and dry for and got rid of it, as Labour has pledged to do? months. I have constituents who have waited almost a year for an assessment. My constituent, Mr W, has even received compensation for the delay that he has experienced. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Having served I was shocked when I asked the Minister how much with the hon. Lady on the Work and Pensions Committee, compensation payments had cost the taxpayer. In a I applaud her commitment to these issues. She made an written answer on 20 September, he told me that the important point about the tone in which this debate Department for Work and Pensions is not bothering to must happen. Does she agree that what matters most is keep a record. what all of us are doing as individuals and as part of the Most pertinently, when the Under-Secretary of State Government or the Opposition to support people with for Welfare Reform says that the way to get more disabilities to get back into work? In that context, disabled people into employment is to cut their pay, I Gloucestershire county council is one of the best rated point to the failure of a raft of Government policies. authorities in the country. Through its Forwards The work capability assessment, which was introduced programme, it is working closely with the Government by Labour in a staged manner, was then pushed through on a Disability Confident event that I am hosting on by this Government in a botched rush. There is now a 14 November, which the Minister of State, Department backlog: 600,000 cases are awaiting a first assessment. for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Reassessments have been put on ice altogether. People Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), will attend. Will the hon. are waiting for weeks, in some cases with no money at Lady join me in saying that that is precisely the sort of all coming in, for mandatory reconsideration. There is thing that we need to do around the country to help a terrible record of poor-quality decision making and a people with disabilities to get into jobs and find ways of huge number of cases have been appealed successfully. taking their lives forward helpfully and productively? Just last week, The Independent reported that thousands of people with degenerative conditions are being put in Kate Green: Of course, I welcome any initiatives such the work-related activity group and denied the support as those that the hon. Gentleman describes. I am looking element of employment and support allowance. Can forward to hosting a Disability Confident event shortly Members imagine the anxiety that that must cause, not with my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and to mention the waste of resources? Sale East (Mike Kane) in our local authority. However, At the same time, the number of people being put I think that we need to look a little more broadly than into the support group overall is rising rapidly. Far from just at what we all do as individuals. It is the collective getting people into work, more people are being cast responsibility of Ministers and the collective policies of aside by the coalition Government. People are being the Government that are under examination this afternoon. abandoned, exactly as happened under Mrs Thatcher, When the Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform when incapacity benefit was used as a means of massaging questions whether disabled people are worth a full down the unemployment figures. Of course disabled wage, does he forget that under his Government, hundreds people who are not able to work must get the support to of thousands of disabled people are right now sitting in which they are entitled, but many disabled people could queues, waiting to be assessed for the financial support work and would love to work, and they are being truly that they should be receiving from the Government? failed by the Government. More than 300,000 people are awaiting an assessment The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness for personal independence payment, which is the (Mr Stuart) highlighted the number of people who have Government’s replacement for disability living allowance. moved into work, but he should also acknowledge that Can Members imagine what it must be like to become the gap between the employment rates of working-age disabled as a result of a catastrophic event such as a disabled and non-disabled adults remains at a stubborn stroke or a terrible accident; to have to spend a fortune 30%. on adapting your home, on transport to get to appointments, on new equipment and on adjusting to Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Lady give way? 185 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 186 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Kate Green: No, I will not at the moment, if the hon. that a disabled person who could work would need in Gentleman will forgive me, because I want to finish my order to do so; to introduce penalties for wrong or point. poor-quality assessments by work capability providers; For a while under Labour that gap was closing, but and to ask disabled people to be part of a process of now progress has stalled. The Work programme—the reviewing and improving the WCA, as they have direct Government’s flagship programme for getting people experience of it. We know that the Work programme is into work—is totally failing disabled people, getting not working for disabled people. We have said we will only around one in 20 into sustained employment. It is replace it with a specialist programme of locally contracted worse than if there were no programme at all. support that will mean that local providers, who have One year after the last factory closed, 50% of Remploy best knowledge of local opportunities, services and workers are still without work. The number of people other providers, will be able to design holistic support on the Access to Work programme, which helps with for disabled people, to enable them to prepare for work. adaptations in the workplace to enable disabled people Perhaps Ministers will heed our practical suggestions, to work, has fallen by 1,800 since 2009-10, and more and most importantly, perhaps they will heed our promise and more people are reporting difficulty in accessing it. that under a Labour Government the tone of the debate Although last year the DWP claimed that it was expanding will be different. Access to Work to cover internships and placements, We should all be ashamed that disability hate crime and that that would benefit hundreds of disabled people, continues to increase, and that disabled people report on 9 September the Minister told me in a written experiencing a stream of negativity and hostility towards answer that he could not provide me with statistics to them. Research by Scope last year, one year after this show how many people had benefited. Meanwhile, the country proudly hosted the 2012 Paralympic games and number of specialist disability employment advisers in celebrated our medal winners, found that 81% of disabled Jobcentre Plus is down 20% under this Government, people said that attitudes towards them had not improved and as my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield in the previous 12 months, with 22% saying that things (Mr Sheerman) pointed out, Ministers are cutting the had got worse. Some 84% of those who said that that disabled students allowance by upwards of £70 million. had happened thought that media coverage of benefit claims and the welfare system had a negative effect on Mr Graham Stuart: This is a difficult area in which to public attitudes. get policy right, and criticisms can be made of this Government and indeed the previous Government. What I am deeply ashamed that disabled people feel hounded is the point of personalising this issue when Lord Freud and bullied in our country, and I am angry that DWP was wrestling with exactly the issue the hon. Lady has Ministers, if not actually using hostile and negative just identified? How do we get the disabled into work, language towards disabled people, are certainly not and how do we support them? If, because of their severe doing anything to halt it. Indeed, the DWP is promoting disability their commercial value is not right, how do we it. In one egregious example recently, the DWP press supplement that? That is what Lord Freud meant and I office retweeted a derogatory story about disabled people think the hon. Lady knows that. Perhaps she will put on benefits that had appeared in the national media. that on the record. Last month’s remarks by Lord Freud have done yet more damage. Kate Green: I will put on the record that it was not anybody making those remarks but the Under-Secretary Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Angela of State for Welfare Reform. He is responsible for Maher, a brave mother battling angina with two disabled making decisions that affect millions of disabled people’s sons in my constituency, fell prey to a whispering lives, and they took deep offence and were hurt by what campaign—“Why is she getting a car on benefits?” It they heard him say. Those remarks exemplify Government culminated in her severely disabled son having stones policies that are failing the objective that the hon. thrown at him when he was in his wheelchair. She came Gentleman describes. That is why we think it important to see me the day after the Chancellor’s speech on to connect Lord Freud’s remarks with wider Government shirkers and strivers. Does my hon. Friend agree that it policy. is absolutely shameful that the disabled should ever in those circumstances be branded as “shirkers”? It is a Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) disgrace that we have a tone that has led to hate crime (PC): Will the hon. Lady give way? on the rise once again in 21st-century Britain. Kate Green: I will make some progress as I know that many other colleagues want to join the debate. Kate Green: None of us can feel proud when we hear It seems that the Government are happy to accept a that story. Hon. Members do not have to take my word waste of potential, and the additional cost of leaving for the concerns of disabled people. Michaela, a member disabled people on benefits year after year is resulting in of Trailblazers, Muscular Dystrophy Campaign’s network them spending £8 billion more than Ministers planned. of young disabled campaigners, says of Lord Freud’s I think we are all agreed: if we—including Lord Freud— remarks: want more disabled people in work, as Labour does, “I’ve worked since I was 17 to improve, enhance and find full there are plenty of policy areas to consider and policies inclusion for those of us living life with disabilities. I’ve worked that could be improved before we start to talk of cutting with a range of charities as a volunteer, pushing for better policies pay. for a range of services, tried to give my voice to the cause and I We have already come forward with our ideas: to can honestly say that I do feel more included in society today than refocus the work capability assessment on its original ever before…What happened yesterday”— purpose of helping to identify the package of support she means the day Lord Freud’s remarks became public— 187 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 188 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Kate Green] Ian Lucas: Will the Minister confirm that the deficit increased by 10% in the past year? “has damaged our position. Lord Freud has enforced the idea that we are less productive, less valuable and by definition less Mr Harper: Let me focus on the motion before the human than the rest of society.” House—[Interruption.] We have reduced the deficit by That is how disabled people feel, and Ministers know a third since the election. The hon. Gentleman does not how damaging Lord Freud’s remarks have been. want us to focus on the record of job creation among On 16 October the Secretary of State for Health said businesses in our country, so let us get back to the on “Question Time”: motion. “Well first of all, I don’t defend what he said, those words were utterly appalling.” Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) rose— and the Minister’s colleague, the Minister for Employment, the right hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), Mr Harper: Let me make one point, and I will give said: way to my hon. Friend. “you’re right those words will haunt him. I cannot justify those The motion contains not a single positive idea about words, they were wrong.” improving the lives of disabled people. The hon. Member I know Lord Freud has apologised, but the damage has for Stretford and Urmston mentioned some ideas in her been done—done in deed and in word by the Minister speech, but she has not troubled the House with any of and his Government. Disabled people deserve a clear them in the motion, which is an attack, pure and simple, signal that we know the offence and hurt that Lord on my noble Friend. In a moment, I will set out exactly Freud’s remarks have caused. This afternoon we can why that charge is not warranted in any way whatever. send them a clear message that we will not tolerate such language, and that we value and respect them as equal Conor Burns: Our noble Friend Lord Freud used members of our society. This afternoon, we can vote for clumsy and offensive language and rightly apologised the motion before the House, and I ask hon. Members for it. Does the Minister agree that for the shadow to do so. Minister deliberately to misinterpret and mislead the House as to Lord Freud’s comments for blatantly partisan advantage and to castigate Government Members who 1.17 pm care as much about disabled people as Opposition Members shows the very worst of the House? The hon. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) made Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): I am very disappointed in a disgraceful speech. the tone of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). This is a cynical debate, and I think my Mr Harper: I agree with the sentiments expressed by right hon. Friend the Secretary of State put his finger my hon. Friend. The Conservative party has a proud on the issue because if the hon. Lady meant what she record. When my right hon. Friend the Leader of the said about the remarks of my noble Friend Lord Freud, House of Commons held the office that I hold today, he she should have exposed them when she first knew took through the House the Disability Discrimination about them. The fact is that the Opposition, right up to Act 1995, the first Act of its kind. That is a record of and including the Leader of the Opposition, used those which our party can be proud and we do not need to remarks as a cynical device to detract attention from the take any lessons from the Labour party. Frankly, the excellent performance of the economy and the 2 million words of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston jobs that were created—news that was announced on were offensive. I will deal with the points in the motion, 15 October but that the Leader of the Opposition did with my noble Friend and with the positive policy not want the House to focus on. That is what this is proposals and record of the Government, and then I about. will invite the House to reject the motion. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Will the Minister give The hon. Lady’s words would be a little more credible way? if there was some evidence that she believed them. Let me set out for Opposition Members, in particular for Mr Harper: Not until I have at least made some those who were not in the previous Parliament, some of opening remarks. the history of my noble Friend’s record on welfare reform. The Leader of the Opposition did not want the House to focus on the fact that employment is at record Jonathan Edwards rose— levels or that there has been the largest annual fall in unemployment on record. He did not want the House to focus on the fact that the claimant count had fallen Mr Harper: I will set out some of the history before I below 1 million or that there had been the largest take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. annual fall on record of youth unemployment. He did It is worth remembering that Lord Freud was hired not want the House to focus on the fact that long-term was by John Hutton, now Lord Hutton, the Labour unemployment was down, and that there are 400,000 Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in late 2006 to fewer workless households since 2010. That is what this write a report on radical welfare reform. At that point, was about—a cynical piece of politics, and the hon. Labour thought Lord Freud was an excellent person Lady had no answer to the charge of my right hon. to involve in the welfare reform agenda. He delivered Friend the Secretary of State. [Interruption.] She did that reform in March 2007. The right hon. Member not, and that will have been exposed to all those watching for Neath (Mr Hain) then became Secretary of State for this debate. Work and Pensions—there was not a lot of appetite for 189 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 190 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform welfare reform under him—followed by James Purnell, Mr Harper: I will take the hon. Lady’s intervention in who was appointed in January 2008. On the second day a moment. It is worth adding that, for his work under of his term of office, he appointed Lord Freud to the Labour party and under us, Lord Freud has not implement the proposals in his report. In the Command taken a penny from the taxpayer in salary. Paper, “No one written off: reforming welfare to reward responsibility”, the then Secretary of State, James Purnell, Kate Green: I acknowledge all that the Minister says set out the proposals of the Labour Government and about Lord Freud’s personal motives, but as a Minister made it clear that they were the language that he uses is important. It exemplified “inspired by the reforms proposed by David Freud in his report what disabled people feel, experience and live in their on the welfare state.” daily lives. Does the Minister not accept that that is why The Command Paper made it clear—boasted, in fact—that the remarks of Lord Freud, not as an adviser but as a the Labour Government would implement all of Lord Minister who takes decisions about disabled people’s Freud’s reforms and even boasted that they would take lives, have caused so much hurt and offence? the reforms further. That is the man whom the Labour party is castigating. Mr Harper: The hon. Lady knows that Lord Freud’s Labour brought him into Government to work with mistake was to accept the premise of the question. The them on welfare reform. The right hon. Member for man who asked the question is the father of a disabled East Ham (Stephen Timms) is chuntering from a sedentary daughter. He was concerned about her ability in the position. It is worth the House remembering that he past to get work. It was an honest question asked in an was appointed Minister for Employment and Welfare honest way. Lord Freud himself accepts that he expressed Reform in January 2008. Between then and October himself clumsily and that he had offended people. He 2008 he served with Lord Freud implementing welfare apologised for that when the remarks were drawn to his reform under the Labour party. The right hon. Gentleman attention. Any reasonable person would accept his apology. knows Lord Freud and that although Lord Freud expressed himself clumsily—he did so, and apologised—the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am not an characterisation of those words is simply inaccurate. expert in the field, but it has been drawn to my attention The Labour party should be ashamed of itself. that Lord Freud was not the first person to make such remarks, however poorly expressed. The Guardian, back Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to the Minister for in February 2000, called for an “urgent revision” of the giving way, but I fear that he has answered my question rules on the minimum wage to enable what The Guardian before I ask it. It is the same Lord Freud that the called “low output” disabled workers to be exempt from Labour party took into the heart of Government. Before minimum wage legislation. At the time, Mencap stated his appointment Lord Freud had said that he understood that while it otherwise supported the minimum wage, nothing about welfare, so will the Minister explain why an exemption should be allowed, because: the noble Lord played such an important role in “Most people with a learning disability want to work”. implementing and coming up with welfare policy for That was not some terrible statement, but an attempt to both the previous Labour Government and the current get people who cannot be as productive as a fully able Conservative Government? person into work where otherwise no job would be offered to them. Cannot hon. Members see that? Mr Harper: I will set out some of the things that Lord Freud has done in government, but let me finish on the Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a sensible point. record of the Labour party, which is worth listening to. That was indeed the policy of Mencap at the time. It Some Labour Members may have to do some rapid has stated that the policy has now changed, but it was rewriting of their speeches. Mencap policy at the time. I therefore think that some James Purnell, when Secretary of State, appointed of the outrage being expressed is not genuine. Lord Freud to work on his proposals. Lord Freud The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned served with the Labour party until January 2009. He “Question Time” on which the Secretary of State for then concluded that there was no appetite for radical Health made some comments. It is worth repeating welfare reform under the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy other comments made on that programme, not by members and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Lord Freud then joined of the panel but by members of the audience. The the Conservative party and our Front-Bench team, of Labour MP, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), which I was a member at the time, to develop our raised the issue on that programme and I think it is fair proposals for welfare reform. James Purnell of course to say that she did not get an entirely positive response had similar thoughts about the appetite of the Labour from the studio audience. One audience member said: party for welfare reform and he resigned from the “I think Angela Eagle is being extremely disingenuous. I think Government five months later. He called on the Labour we all knew what he meant, even though he said it clumsily.” party to dump its leader, and thankfully for us the Another person told her: public did so a year later. “What you are doing is hypocritical point scoring and it’s Lord Freud joined us, I have worked closely with him disgusting.” and he is passionate about getting disabled people into work. I know that the travesty of his character that the A final comment, from another young woman, was: hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston set out is “I just wanted to see whether you”— unfair and unwarranted. the hon. Member for Wallasey— “would use this as a political football and you have done—thanks Kate Green rose— Angela.” 191 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 192 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) In 2012, Lord Freud drove and penned the foreword (Lab): The Minister makes a confused argument. He to “Untapped Talent”, a guide to employing people accepts that Lord Freud has apologised for his comments, with autism produced jointly by the Department for but defends them none the less. Surely the problem is Work and Pensions and the National Autistic Society. the message sent to disabled people such as my constituents Lord Freud said: who came to see me. They have the most difficult life, “We need to be clear to employers that making business and find that, under this Government—they say, “Under environments more ‘autism friendly’ is not about meeting corporate this Government,”—they receive abuse walking down social responsibility objectives, but about tapping into and seeking the street because of their disability and because one of out the most talented individuals for a role…People with autism them receives benefits. The Government should take the can have exceptional talents and by making some straightforward stigmatisation of disabled people in this society seriously adjustments can prove to be a tremendous asset to business. We but they are adding to it. need to do more to make use of those talents.” That sets out his view about disabled people clearly. Mr Harper: I am not defending Lord Freud’s words. I Any fair and reasonable person would conclude that my am saying that it is not a reasonable conclusion to noble Friend wants more disabled people in work and pretend that his comments reflect someone who is not has dedicated his time in the Government to ensuring fit to be a Minister of the Crown. I think Opposition that that can be so. Members do not really believe that. The motion is a cynical attempt to divert attention from some of the Mr Stuart: My hon. Friend is doing a tremendous Government’s economic successes. job staying calm in responding to the scandalous opening speech by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston Let me set out the details of some of the proposals on (Kate Green). Compounding the cynicism, she tried to which my noble Friend has been working. The House make out that discrimination against disabled people is will see that he has improved lives not just for disabled a function of this Government. Is he aware of the 2007 people, but for other disadvantaged people in our country, Leonard Cheshire Disability review, which found that not just in what he has said, but in what he has done. 89% of disabled people at that time felt discriminated against in Britain? Conservatives did not try to pin that John Howell: Does my hon. Friend agree that Lord on the Labour party. For Labour Members to pin that Freud raised an important question, namely how we discrimination on us is below them. help those who want to work but who are faced with the most colossal barriers to doing so? Mr Harper: My hon. Friend is right. I see in the Chamber a Member who served as a Minister for Mr Harper: That is what Lord Freud did. Many disabled people. She will know that, when I shadowed people in the press and broadcast coverage acknowledged her, my approach was always to work in a consensual that he expressed himself in an unhelpful way, but that and bipartisan manner so that we could do the best for he raised a real issue. We need to do more to tackle it. disabled people. I am disappointed that Labour has not My hon. Friend has a fair reading of the situation. reciprocated.

Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con) rose— Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Graham Stuart rose— Mr Harper: Let me make a little more progress. I am conscious of time and that others wish to speak. Mr Harper: I will make a bit more progress because On the other points in the motion, the hon. Member other hon. Members wish to speak. for Stretford and Urmston spoke of the personal On Lord Freud’s focus in office, he has been working independence payment. I have been frank with the House, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and is both at the Dispatch Box and in evidence to the Work one of the driving forces behind the introduction of and Pensions Committee—the Chair of the Committee universal credit. That reform will be important in our is in the Chamber—that there are delays and that they welfare system for many years. Most of the gains from are unacceptable. It has been my top priority since universal credit will go to those in the bottom 40% of being appointed on 15 July to drive those delays down. the income distribution. It means that we will be able to We are seeing progress in that direction throughout look people in the eye and tell them that work will Great Britain, and we will achieve the Secretary of always pay, and that more work will pay for them. It State’s commitment by the end of this year that no one also increases spending on disabled households and will wait longer than 16 weeks for an assessment. enables disabled people to earn nearly £8,000 a year without affecting their universal credit entitlement. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is the Opposition Members know that Lord Freud has Minister aware of a case that I referred to the Secretary been at the heart of the Government’s work on of State, in which it took a year to deal with an understanding how we can provide better employment application for PIP? Three days later, my constituent support to people with mental health problems. Working died. His sister said: “Is this the way to treat a person closely with the Minister with responsibility for care who has worked all his life, paid his taxes and national and support, my right hon. Friend the Member for insurance, and when he needed help, it was not there?” I North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), he has pioneered the wrote to the Secretary of State, who has accepted that introduction of pilots to test the best ways to support such delays were unacceptable, but that illustrates what people with mild and moderate mental health problems has happened to so many people, not just my late into work. constituent. 193 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 194 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Mr Harper: I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. piece of procurement. We inherited a backlog when we I said in my opening remarks, and I have said it several came into office. We have made considerable improvements times in the House and when giving evidence to the to the process. Hon. Members will know that Atos is Select Committee, that those delays are unacceptable. exiting the contract early, having paid a financial settlement That is why I am working tirelessly to ensure we drive to the taxpayer. I will announce the results of the them down. Officials in my Department are on the case process to appoint a new provider in due course. of the assessment providers on a daily basis. We have The hon. Lady will also know that there have been people embedded with those providers. I look at the four independent reviews—Dr Paul Litchfield is matter continuously to ensure that we drive down those undertaking a fifth—and we have implemented more delays further. than 75 recommendations. We have made the assessment The hon. Gentleman is right that the delays are less mechanistic, with better interactions between the unacceptable, which is why we are doing something Department and claimants. We have also improved about them. We have more than doubled the number of communications and carried out an evidence-based review assessments since the start of the year to more than of the descriptors, which looked at the current assessment 35,000 in June and July. There have been further criteria along with alternative assessment criteria from improvements since and we are driving down the backlog. disability charities. The findings indicate that, overall, Both assessment providers have increased the number the WCA provides a valid assessment relative to experts’ of health care professionals and the number of assessment opinions about people’s fitness for work. centres has increased. We have improved guidance and We have also built on previous changes to how claimants extended opening hours, and our decision makers in with cancer are assessed to ensure that patients awaiting, DWP have improved their productivity threefold. undergoing or recovering from cancer treatment are Importantly, we have fast-tracked claims for people placed in the support group. We have also retained a who are terminally ill. strong focus on how mental health is assessed, including, for example, through the introduction of mental function Several hon. Members rose— champions. We have introduced mandatory reconsideration. The number of people waiting for an assessment has Mr Harper: I am spoilt for choice for members of the fallen by more than 20% in the last six months, and I Select Committee to give way to. I think the hon. want it to continue to fall. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was first. Debbie Abrahams: Can the Minister explain why Sheila Gilmore: We have heard such assurances for seven out of 10 people with progressive conditions such the best part of the past year. Fast-tracking terminal as multiple sclerosis or cystic fibrosis are being assessed illnesses was promised months ago. Surely the problem two or three times? Does he think their conditions will is with the policy. At the outset, many people said that it change? was not necessary to throw the whole thing up in the air and start again, and that the system had not been well Mr Harper: The hon. Lady will know that the WCA thought through. When the Select Committee asked the and the personal independence payment are not based Minister’s predecessor but two how it would be possible on diagnoses of conditions; they are about the impact to process so many assessments and reassessments in on somebody’s life. It is also—[Interruption.] Perhaps the time scale given, we were told that there would be no Members will listen to the reply. It is also worth making problem, and there has clearly been a major problem. sure that people are getting the appropriate help. When The Government cannot easily sort out the problem, so someone is assessed the first time, it might be that they will the Minister consider whether some of the policy are found able to work. If their condition deteriorates drivers are the wrong ones? and has a larger impact on their life, it is important for us to ensure that they get the help they need for that Mr Harper: I have accepted openly that there is a level of condition, so I think it is perfectly appropriate problem with delays in the system, but the hon. Lady to reassess people at intervals of up to three years. will know that the independent review is under way. We The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned have appointed Paul Gray, who has taken evidence and the spare room subsidy, which this House has debated is in the process of compiling his report, which he will at great length. The basic issue is one of fairness and give to the Secretary of State in the coming weeks. The treating people in social housing the same as those in report will be published for hon. Members and the private rented accommodation. That was the position Select Committee to review. That is the right way to that applied under the whole of the last Government, proceed. and I am still waiting to hear how Labour plan to fund the reversal of that policy. It is also worth noting that Several hon. Members rose— the example she gave, if I heard her correctly, was of somebody who had received support from discretionary Mr Harper: I am going to make progress. Otherwise, housing payments, which are exactly designed for people nobody else will be able to speak and it would be very who need that extra support. I could not quite see what boring if everyone was listening to me all afternoon. her criticism was. Let me mention the employment and support allowance and the work capability assessment. I was criticised by Kate Green: I am grateful to the Minister for allowing the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston for the me to answer that point. The issue about discretionary work capability assessment. The Government inherited housing payments, as I know from my own disabled the contract with Atos, which, I should remind hon. constituents, is the stress and uncertainty of receiving Members, was appointed by Labour. It was not a great short-term award after short-term award and having to 195 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 196 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Kate Green] of disabled people in employment in Britain is about the EU average. Our gap is higher, but of course that apply, then reapply and reapply. I frequently have to reflects our better performance at getting people into intervene with the local authority to ask it to make work overall. The gap has remained stable during the longer awards. Would it not be fairer, simpler and less recession, but it is still too high. We want to narrow the costly for those claimants, as well as giving them much gap through the range of programmes we have to greater peace of mind, simply to make an award that support disabled people into work. recognised their housing needs? Let me say a little about some of those programmes, which include Access to Work. Members of the Work Mr Harper: In preparation for the private Member’s and Pensions Committee will know that on Wednesday Bill debate, I read through the guidance we give to local I am giving evidence about Access to Work, not only on authorities on discretionary housing payments, which is some of the areas where there have been administrative clear that it is perfectly open to local authorities to issues, which we are fixing, but on some of the changes make a long-term award where someone has a long-term that I hope we can make in the months to come. We said condition. That was one reason why my right hon. in 2012 that we would invest a further £15 million in the Friend the Chancellor set out the amount of discretionary scheme, which we have. In 2013-14, more than 35,000 housing payments not just for the current year, but for people were helped by Access to Work, which was 5,000 the year ahead, saying that local authorities could make more than in the year before. It is a valuable scheme; I those awards with the confidence that the money would want to try to make it less bureaucratic and more be available. successful. The Work programme, which has already been Several hon. Members rose— mentioned, is designed to help people at risk of becoming long-term unemployed. Of course, employment and Mr Harper: I will take one more intervention from support allowance claimants are required only to prepare my hon. Friend, before setting out some positive policies. for work, rather than having any more conditionality, but providers have developed innovative approaches to Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I am grateful for my support those with significant barriers to work, and one hon. Friend’s comments about discretionary housing in 10 of the more recent ESA new claimants has had at payments, because I have had precisely that problem least three months of work in the first year of the with one constituent who has a long-term condition. programme. Work Choice supports disabled people with He was given an award, which the local Labour-controlled more severe disabilities, with support tailored to individual borough council keeps on coming back to him to reaffirm, needs. In 2013-14, more than 20,000 people started on even though it is within its power to give him a long-standing Work Choice, with more than half achieving a sustainable award. However, it does not do so purely for political job outcome. reasons. Let me say a little more about mental health conditions and the conditions people have that prove a barrier to Mr Harper: I have listened to what my hon. Friend getting into work. I do not pretend that we have by any has said. The guidance is quite clear that if authorities means solved the problems for those with physical think it appropriate, they are able to make a long-term health conditions—there is more to do—but the biggest award. As I said, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor gap is for those with mental health conditions, just has set out that the funding is available, not just this under half of whom are in work. The figure for those year but next year, so that they can have the financial with learning disabilities is around a quarter, while for confidence to do so. I leave it to others to make a those with some other hidden impairments, such as judgment about why authorities might be doing what autism, it is only 15%. my hon. Friend says. This Government are doing a great deal on improving Despite the fact that Labour’s motion, in the name of the performance on mental health. I have set out some the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston, contains of the things that my noble Friend Lord Freud has not a single positive point about how we could improve brought forward, but we have also made significant the lives of disabled people, let me set out some positive announcements about our mental health policies. The suggestions, which Members can think about as they Deputy Prime Minister has set out a number of changes, reject the motion before us. In 2012-13, this Government which will come into force from next April, on the spent nearly £50 billion on disability benefits and services. national health service’s performance on making talking Overall spending on benefits will be higher in every year therapies available more quickly. He has also set out the through to 2017-18 than in the 2009-10 financial year, pilots that will be run to improve waiting time standards. so we are absolutely committed to providing the proper This Government are stepping up the action we are support to disabled people. However, we also want taking on mental health that will enable people with disabled people, where they can, to move into work, to mental health conditions to get into work. stay in work and to progress in the labour market. Finally, on our employment programmes, I want to Of course, the value of work is not just financial, mention the Disability Confident campaign, which, as which is one of the points to come out in the debate Members will know, the Prime Minister launched last provoked by my noble Friend’s remarks. One of my year. It is about giving employers the confidence to hon. Friends pointed out earlier that disability employment employ disabled people. My hon. Friend the Member had increased by 116,000 in the last year alone, which is for Gloucester (Richard Graham), who is no longer very welcome, but there is more to do. The hon. Member in his place, referred to the event he is holding on for Stretford and Urmston mentioned the disability 15 November—which I will be very pleased to attend—to employment gap. It is worth saying that the percentage promote employers in the Gloucestershire area hiring 197 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 198 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform more disabled people. Such events are going on all over I wish also to pay tribute to the previous MP for this the country—the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston seat, which was created following boundary changes in said she would be holding one. I have written to every 1983. I am talking about Jim Callaghan, not the Labour Member of the House and would urge everyone to hold Prime Minister from 1976 to 1979, but his namesake, an event to demonstrate practically to employers that if fondly known as “Gentleman Jim”, who is still resident they wish to hire disabled people, the help and support in Middleton. is there to ensure that they can do so. My constituency of Heywood and Middleton comprises In conclusion, this debate is cynically motivated. It is those two former mill towns, along with the large village not about what Lord Freud said. The Labour party of Norden, the former mill town of Castleton and the knows that he is a man who cares passionately about more affluent Bamford. The constituency is one of getting disabled people into work. The right hon. Member those that make up the metropolitan borough of Rochdale. for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who was Minister for The M62 motorway separates the constituency, with Employment and Welfare Reform in the last Government, Middleton to the south sitting along the Rochdale worked with him and knows that to be the case. He canal. Middleton has given us an eclectic bunch of inspired—in the words of the then Secretary of State—their artists: comedian Steve Coogan grew up there, and welfare reforms. Everyone has seen through this debate, indie band, the Chameleons all came from Middleton. which is about trying to draw attention away from the A lesser known fact about Middleton is that the local success of our long-term economic plan and the creation newspaper, the Middleton Guardian, gave the shadow of 2 million jobs. I have set out some of the Government’s Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for positive policies to ensure that disabled people can live Leigh (Andy Burnham) his first job as a journalist—a independent lives and that as many as possible of them fact he recalled with great pride when he recently visited can stay in or move into work. I am proud of our the excellent Peterloo medical centre in the constituency. record. The medical centre is so named in tribute to another of I draw a different conclusion from that of the Labour Middleton’s famous sons, Samuel Bamford, the radical party about these events and how Members have conducted social reformer who led the Middleton contingent to themselves. Labour’s handling of this issue and its lack the ill-fated Peterloo massacre. of a credible economic policy prove that it is not fit to Middleton is also home to the John Willie Lees govern this country. I urge the House to concur in that brewery, a traditional family firm that has been established view by rejecting this cynical motion. for 186 years and provides employment to over 1,000 people, plus an excellent apprenticeship scheme, which Several hon. Members rose— offers real jobs at the end of it. John Willie Lees also has a family connection for me, as my mother ran two Lees Mr Speaker: Order. A great many hon. and right hon. pubs in the ’80s and I spent many weekends and evenings Members are seeking to catch my eye, as a consequence on what many would see as the wrong side of the bar, of which, I have had to impose a six-minute limit on serving pints and hopefully good cheer in equal measure. Back-Bench speeches. However, we are about to hear a In those days it was all electric pumps, and I am glad to maiden speech, so the House will understand why I see that John Willie Lees has now returned to hand-pumped have decided that the limit should apply after the first beer. It even still makes mild, a traditional Northern two speeches from the Back Benches. brew that I thought had all but died out, but now seems to be enjoying something of a resurgence. I believe that 1.50 pm it might be available here in the south now, and could Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab): Thank even be considered to be ever so slightly fashionable. you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to make my maiden Heywood sits in the centre of the constituency on the speech during this debate. River Roch. It used to have cotton as well as mines, I start by paying tribute to my predecessor, Jim although now it has neither. Amongst its famous daughters Dobbin, whose sad death brought about the recent are the singer Lisa Stansfield and Julie Goodyear, also by-election in my Heywood and Middleton constituency. known as Bet Lynch from “Coronation Street”. Heywood Jim was a much loved and respected Member of Parliament. is home, too, to the Queen’s park, which, in 2010 was He was held in high regard by his constituents and, I voted the nation’s favourite green space, bringing immense would hope, by every Member in this House. It is pride to the people of Heywood. The park was presented significant to this debate that Jim’s very last vote in by Queen Victoria in 1879 and still features some fine Parliament was a vote against the bedroom tax. original structures such as the magnificent Victoria fountain. Jim and I had a career in common; we both worked as health care scientists in the NHS prior to being The park was revitalised using funds awarded by the elected to Parliament. We both plied our trade at the council and by the Heritage Lottery Fund; over £l million Royal Oldham hospital, which provides health care to was spent on its restoration. In 2007, it was given green my constituents. Many of my NHS colleagues have flag status and an excellence award from the national fond memories of Jim. Indeed, the laboratory that, Civic Trust. Lovingly cared for by the friends of Queen’s until recent events, provided me with gainful employment, park, it provides an excellent recreational and community bears a distinctive foundation stone, dated 5 September facility. 2005, and it was laid by Mr Jim Dobbin, MP and Returning to the subject of this debate, Heywood and Fellow of the Institute of Biomedical Science. I am Middleton is the home of “Middleton, Heywood and immensely proud to have been given this opportunity to Rochdale against the Cuts”, an active and vocal continue the great work of my predecessor and to carry campaigning group, which highlights and speaks out on the tradition of health care scientists at the Royal against austerity measures that affect the most vulnerable Oldham hospital making a contribution to Parliament. in our communities. Certainly during the campaign 199 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 200 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Liz McInnes] Sir George Young: I do not doubt for one moment what the hon. Gentleman has just said, but I have not period prior to the by-election, I encountered many received one e-mail, one letter or one comment from disabled residents who struggled with the bedroom tax. one of my constituents about those remarks. I welcome this debate, which provides an opportunity Of course there are times when there are policy to discuss the adverse effects of some of the Government’s disagreements on how best to enfranchise those with policies. disabilities, be they physical or learning disabilities, and I was particularly concerned by the plight of one of course we should always be careful about the language disabled gentleman I met who was deemed to be in that we use—as the former Prime Minister discovered possession of a spare room. In this room, he kept when he referred to someone as a bigot. However, equipment to enable him to manage his condition. during the 40 years I have been in the House, I have Additionally, the room provided a place for his wife to been struck by the degree of consensus on how best to sleep in on the frequent occasions when he had disturbed proceed with policy on disability, and I honestly do not nights. Under the so-called “spare room subsidy” he believe that the exchange at the party conference justified was paying £14 a week for this room, which the family the outbreak of partisanship that we have witnessed could ill afford. Sadly, he is not the only one of my this afternoon. constituents affected; unfortunately, he is one of many. Let me pick out two pieces of legislation relating to Although I was not here to vote on the bedroom tax, I disabled people. The ground-breaking Chronically Sick look forward to voting on the Affordable Homes Bill and Disabled Persons Act 1970 started as a Private when it comes before Parliament. Member’s Bill, promoted by Alf Morris, and reached I am informed that a maiden speech should not be the statute book with Conservative support just before too political—I may well have picked the wrong debate the 1970 election. Later in the 1970s, one of the first to make my speech—so I will wind up here and thank Bills whose Committee stages I attended introduced a Members for their polite attention and you, Mr Speaker, non-contributory invalidity pension, which was the first for allowing me to make my contribution. of a new generation of benefits that replaced earnings for those unable to work.The other piece of legislation, Hon. Members: Hear, hear. which was mentioned earlier by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, is the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, which introduced a new right to non-discrimination Mr Speaker: We are extremely grateful to the hon. in employment and which had all-party support. By Lady. We enjoyed her speech, and we will now hear and large, the House has made progress, driving forward from Sir George Young. the agenda, when we have been able to reach a consensus. The objective that I hope we all share this afternoon was put well by Nicholas Scott in 1992, when he was 1.58 pm Minister for Social Security and Disabled People. He Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): I said then: begin by warmly congratulating the hon. Member for “There is no difference of opinion in the House about the ends Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) on her maiden that we seek: the integration of disabled people, their independence speech. We all welcome her first contribution to debates and their participation in a range of activities, including employment, in this Chamber. She spoke with warmth about Jim the securing of proper housing, recreation and sport. Above all, we want them to have control over their own lives.”—[Official Dobbin, whom we remember with affection, and she Report, 31 January 1992; Vol. 202, c. 1251.] obviously knew him well. She took us on a guided tour I think that that is as valid today as it was then. of her constituency. She spoke with confidence, humour and insight, and she clearly has a contribution to make, The thrust of policy under all parties has been to specifically on health matters. I would have visited her remove the obstacles that prevent someone with a disability constituency during the by-election, but I was otherwise from enjoying the same quality of life as someone detained in Clacton. We look forward to hearing many without that disability. That has involved Government future contributions from the hon. Lady. action, including action by my party. I believe that this motion is opportunistic and misguided. Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I strongly support I do not think that it furthers the interests of those with what my right hon. Friend is saying, and the tenor of it. a disability or the organisations that care for them. The As one who was involved in lobbying for the Disability reaction of the audience at “Question Time” the week Discrimination Act outside the House all those years before last showed a distaste for the political opportunism ago, may I ask whether he agrees that a key part of that we have seen this afternoon. I am genuinely surprised disability empowerment is the Government’s Access to that the Opposition did not learn the lesson from that Work scheme? I should add, to be fair, that it was reaction before they chose the subject of this debate and introduced by the then Government. It is very important launched their highly personalised attack on a man for every penny that can possibly be invested in access who, as we have just heard, has done so much to to work to be invested, because it is a route that enables advance the cause of those who have a disability. If I many people with disabilities to be helped into work. were charitable, I would say on listening to the mover of the motion, that I do not believe her heart was in it. Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend, and in a moment I shall say a little about how more disabled Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): As the father people can be helped into work. of two disabled children, I found the remarks grossly Over the past 40 years, there has been Government offensive, as did every member of my family and my intervention to achieve the objectives that I have identified. community. We have the mobility allowance, which can sometimes 201 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 202 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform be converted into the Motability scheme, and we have she needed the toilet. Many of us will know that feeling. the disabled facilities grant. Both parties have used She asked to use the toilet, and she was refused. She was building regulations to make public buildings, in particular, asked, “Are you threatening me that you will pee on the more accessible to people with disabilities. floor if I do not let you use the toilet?” Of course, that is Let me now deal with the specifics. I shall try to exactly what happened. adhere to the six-minute time limit, although it does not I do not tell this story to embarrass anyone—myself, apply to me. We all want disabled people to have the other Members, or the people at Mitcham jobcentre sense of fulfilment, independence and comradeship that who do a hard job in difficult circumstances—but how goes with having a job. My noble Friend Lord Freud do we expect people with disabilities to turn up a was asking a genuine question, namely “How can we jobcentre where they cannot use a toilet? We would not intervene in the market to enable everyone to work if allow that of an employer, so why do we allow it in our some people work at a slower rate than others or need own services? Becky was greatly distressed that she was more supervision?” It was a genuine question, and we allowed to go home on the bus in such a condition. have not heard an answer to it from the Opposition Even a modicum of compassion was not exercised in today. that instance. I suggest that Ministers consider what The debate then moved on to the minimum wage, in facilities are available if we want people to turn up at respect of which there are a number of exemptions, our jobcentres. including one for company directors. During the meeting Let me now deal with the issue of flexibility. People that took place at the conference, one delegate said that who are disabled and on benefits often become risk-averse, he had got round the minimum wage provision for his but once they are on benefits and in the system, they daughter by making her a company director, but that is can keep going. Life is not easy, but to risk losing a rather protracted and complex solution, which not benefits threatens huge distress. Only last night, Merton everyone can adopt. What my noble Friend was trying Centre for Independent Living gave me the example of to do was establish whether there were other solutions a woman who had arrived at the centre with mental that would enable the same objective to be reached. health problems and physical disabilities. She was in the There is no dispute about the direction of social employment and support allowance support group. She policy on those with disabilities, and I am not aware had been an art teacher in better days, and she wanted that the Opposition plan to repeal the measures that we to volunteer: she wanted to give something back to the have had to introduce in order to contain public expenditure. community. She felt that if she could manage that, The speed with which we move in the direction in which perhaps she could then get into work. The centre’s staff we all want to move depends on getting the economy helped her, gratefully and thankfully. They realised that right. As with the national health service, so with support she had no computer skills, and was unlikely ever to get for disability: we need a strong economy if we are to a job without them in this day and age, so they sent her take the agenda forward. No one has a greater interest on a course. in the success of the Government’s economic policy When the woman phoned the jobcentre, she was than those with a disability. immediately taken off ESA, and told that she was doing I think that the motion should be withdrawn, but if it voluntary work without permission. Her benefit has is not withdrawn, it should be defeated, because it is an been suspended, and she will have to appeal. Her housing unwarranted personal attack. No alternative approach benefit has been stopped, so her rent arrears have to disability has been advocated, and it risks breaking a increased. She has now decided that she will never try to bipartisan approach to disability that has served those help herself again, because by doing so she has only with a disability well for the last 40 years. brought distress and misery on herself. The final case that I shall cite involves unintended 2.5 pm consequences. I have known Jeanette Townley for more than 30 years. She is an extraordinary woman, whom Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I most female Members would love to have as their shall take this opportunity to give three examples from friend. She has two sons. The first was in the Army, and my constituency of brave women who are directly affected the second, Philip, has Down’s syndrome. She has cared by the Government’s changes and welfare reforms, and for him brilliantly. As happens in many cases, when she also to identify the things that I think we need to do if had a disabled son, her marriage broke down. She we are to take a bipartisan and House-wide view of the moved into a three-bedroom house on St Helier avenue issue of getting people with disabilities back to work. over 22 years ago. Her eldest son has now left and First, we need to provide access to basic facilities in joined the Army. She is in a two-bedroom house with public buildings, especially jobcentres. Secondly, we need her son Philip, who is 29 years of age. She receives flexibility, because that is what enables us to get disabled carers allowance and maintenance from her ex-husband, people back to work, and we need to make those people and this is topped up with income support. Her income less risk-averse. Thirdly, we need to understand the law is £106 a week. Philip gets DLA middle rate care and of unintended consequences. That applies particularly ESA. Their household has to contribute £72 a month to to regional differences relating to the bedroom tax. keep and stay in their house—not that they have any My first example involves Becky Weston, who has alternative, because, as every London Member knows, cerebral palsy. She also has a hole in her bladder, and there are no two-bedroom homes to be had, as that is she needs access to a toilet. She was invited to visit the number of bedrooms that is most in demand. Mitcham jobcentre for a benefits review. She phoned Jeanette would move. She does not want to move the jobcentre to explain that when she arrived there, because she has great neighbours who care for Philip if having taken the bus, she would need to get to the toilet. she is not there; she has a brilliant GP who knows how When she arrived, she was angry, upset and distressed: to handle Philip; and, God help us, when Philip is in 203 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 204 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Siobhain McDonagh] How we best achieve that is a deeply complex public policy issue. I do not believe they should be paid less distress the movement of the traffic up and down the than the minimum wage. My own personal preference is main road she lives on gives him comfort. However, she the model operated in Denmark, which uses a series of would move to save that £72 per month. wage incentives to top up what employers are willing to How can it be right that we undermine Jeanette in her pay, but that is just one of a whole host of options. The caring role, a bright clever woman who would have had tragedy of the attitude that the shadow Minister has a better life and more opportunities if she did not have shown today in the Chamber is that she has sought to Philip as her son? She does not wish him not to be her close down that public policy debate—she has sought to son. She spends every day caring for him. Do we want close down that consensus. to undermine the limited financial means of such women? As we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member I do not believe anybody in this House wants that, and for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), all the we need to do something about it. great advances in the interests of disabled people have come about when there has been consensus in this 2.11 pm Chamber—when the parties have worked together to advance the interests of the most vulnerable in our Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): community. It is entirely right that if people want to Whenever I deal with disability issues, I always feel I work we should be willing to make that happen, because have to make a particular effort to look beyond the label where there is poverty of expectation—and that is what of a person’s disability, so as to see the person for who I almost sense from the Opposition Benches—that they are and not just their condition. In many ways, it is automatically translates into poverty of opportunity. the same when I am sitting in this Chamber: I have to look to see the people for who they really are, and not All of us have a responsibility for what we say. I am judge them by their partisan labels. It is a challenge in glad that Lord Freud has made it clear that his comments politics to realise that we are actually all here because were not appropriate, but the key thing to remember is we want to make this country a better place. We may the goal we have. Only 10% of people with a learning disagree about how to go about that, but we all share disability are in employment. That is far, far too low. I that common idea. It is why we enter public life. It is would rather we spent a few hours in this Chamber why we welcome a new Member today, the hon. Member discussing how we might increases that, and I am happy for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), whose to give the Labour party ideas for its manifesto since it maiden speech was excellent. As I try to do that, however, seems to need them so much. I occasionally feel personally let down. I have thrown We only need look at, for example, some of the ideas away my speech because I want to explain why I feel so that Scope has been coming up with. It is great to get personally let down by the shadow Minister, the hon. people into work, but we have to enable them to stay in Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), and work. I am sure that, like me, Opposition Members her comments on disability hate crime in particular. have had people coming to their surgeries saying that After I was elected to this House, early on in my they are in work, that they are struggling to stay in work constituency surgeries I had a number of very upsetting and that they need some more flexible form of what is cases of disability hate crime. It is clearly a very big now being called adjustment leave. I think that would issue across the country as a whole. Nationally, there be an excellent step forward because it would give have been some very tragic cases. There has clearly been individuals greater flexibility in coping with their fluctuating significant under-reporting of disability hate crime over conditions—they may have a good day or a bad day, a decade or more under Governments of all persuasions. and they may be working in an environment where that I quickly realised that we needed to create spaces in does not always work out quite so well with the employer. which people felt able to report disability hate crime, Adjustment leave is one idea to address that. because I wanted more people to have the confidence to The Labour party continually campaigns about living report it. When I see the number of reported disability standards. Well, here is a great idea for it: look at the hate crimes going up, I take no satisfaction in that—certainly costs of equipment for the disabled—look at the Office not—but I see that we are creating an arena in which of Fair Trading reports on the cost of powered wheelchairs people feel confident to talk about it, and I find it and the fact that even a set of cutlery for a young man deeply personally upsetting when that is used as a stick with cerebral palsy can cost £31. There is so much more to beat the Government with, because I have done so we could be talking about in this Chamber on a consensual much work to try to create that space where people can basis to make lives better for disabled people, and what have that confidence. a tragedy—what a waste—that we are going back to That is why this whole debate is so frustrating to me. I politics again today. have not heard the answer to the question the father of the young lady with the learning difficulty was asking 2.17 pm Lord Freud. I do not know what the Labour party’s answer is. I wish we could all leave this Chamber and go Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): It is a to the Upper Waiting Hall, where we all might learn great pleasure to follow the new Member, my hon. something from the display by United Response. Many Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz disabled people have sent postcards expressing what McInnes), and I add my congratulations to her on her they aspire to and what they want to be able to do in maiden speech. this country, because it is their country, too. Let me make clear how many disabled people across This is not a matter of our somehow deciding whether the whole of the United Kingdom are feeling just now: disabled people are able to work or not. If they want to they are feeling beleaguered; they are feeling that they work, we as a nation should be enabling them to do so. are being asked to pay for the mistakes of the bankers 205 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 206 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform and bear the brunt of the austerity measures. Regardless personal point of view how important those changes of whether Members on the Government Benches believe were and how long and hard the fight has been to that themselves, they must understand that many disabled persuade the people that disabled people deserve people are feeling that. They feel that a lot of the opportunities, support and help. Government’s welfare reforms are less about reform One of the main ways in which disabled people are and more about saving money, and because of that helped into work is through the Work Choice programme. particular atmosphere many of them are feeling that It is the only specialist disability employment programme somehow everything that is being done with regard to in existence, and it sits outside the Work programme. welfare reform is landing on their doorstep. I therefore One would expect the people on the Work Choice make the plea I have made umpteen times before: programme to be in receipt of disability benefits, but because we do not know the full impact these reforms that is not necessarily the case. I have visited the two have had on disabled people, will the Government carry Work Choice providers in Aberdeen, and almost all the out a cumulative impact assessment? people there are on jobseeker’s allowance. Yes, they We have asked for that time and again. It would at have disabilities or ill health problems, but they are not least begin to quantify for individual families the money the most severely disabled people. That is one of the they are losing as a result of these reforms. At the problems: the very programme that was meant to help moment, there is mention of them losing £2 here or those with the most profound disabilities is helping £8 there or that they are experiencing a few extra those who are less disabled—albeit successfully; the difficulties in accessing funds or support. Unless we Minister quoted the results. actually look at how each of these changes is impacting The opportunities for supported employment or sheltered on each individual family, we are never truly going to employment, both of which Government Members have understand why they feel the way they do and the put forward as answers to the problem, have decreased. consequences of that. We have not yet seen the redeployment of the Remploy It is not just the changes to the obvious benefits that money into helping people into supported or sheltered affect disabled people. There are changes to benefits employment. The crux of this debate is the fact that that are aimed particularly at them: the changes from there is still a need for such support to allow those with incapacity benefit to ESA, and the move from DLA to the most profound disabilities to get into work. personal independence payments and Access to Work, Another big problem, which was mentioned by my which the Minister mentioned. As he said, he will be hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston appearing in front of my Committee tomorrow morning. (Kate Green), relates to people with progressive illnesses Those benefits are obviously targeted at disabled people, being stuck in the work-related activity group. My but there are others, including jobseeker’s allowance, Select Committee looked into the workings of the that are aimed at those who have gone through the work employment and support allowance and the work capability capability assessment and been found fit for work even assessment, and we found that the work-related activity though they have major health problems. Those people group had become the default destination for everyone, find themselves on jobseeker’s allowance. There is also and that the system was therefore not working as efficiently housing benefit, and we have all heard about the bedroom as it should. People who are neither too ill nor too well, tax. All these arrangements disproportionately affect who are disabled but not too disabled, or who are on a disabled people. In jobcentres, there are not enough trajectory towards either getting better or getting worse disability employment advisers. My Select Committee will not qualify for jobseeker’s allowance at one end of found out that there was one for every 600 claimants, the spectrum or for the ESA support group at the other. but I understand that the figure is nearer to 900. The Those people will end up in the work-related activity Work programme is not delivering as it should for group. That includes people with progressive illnesses, disabled people. who face conditionality and even sanctioning. That illustrates an element of the design of the ESA that is Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): My fundamentally wrong. hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. The right The crux of the matter is that the Government have hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George tried to implement too much welfare reform too quickly. Young) mentioned one of my predecessors, Alf Morris, They have forgotten the lesson that these matters are who introduced the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons incredibly complicated. There are always unintended Act 1970. That Act was described as the Magna Carta consequences, and it always takes far longer than anyone of legislation for disabled people. It was the first piece anticipates to implement the changes. That is why disabled of legislation in any nation anywhere in the world to people are feeling so aggrieved: they feel that no one is recognise the rights of disabled people. We on this side listening. of the Chamber are angry because we feel that that disability agenda is being set back by this Government’s policies. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is what is 2.24 pm happening? Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): There are times when we debate issues in this House with maturity and Dame Anne Begg: I do, and that is certainly how sensitivity, and I am pleased that, since the hon. Member many disabled people feel. One of Alf Morris’s great for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) sat down, that achievements was the Motability scheme. He used to has been the case today. No one could fail to have been joke that the only organisation that had more vehicles moved by the examples given by the hon. Member for than that scheme was the Chinese red army. I benefited Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), or by the from having a Motability car when I was a student—I speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool was among the first to get one—so I understand from a North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who is no longer 207 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 208 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Jackie Doyle-Price] others who will fill the gap. The fact is that the quiet majority of people out there are very reasonable. They in his place. The reality is that, if we want to make a are not stupid—far from it. Any politician who takes difference, to fix the ills of our society and to make them for fools will pay the price. The public have judged Britain the best it can be, we need to show more that Lord Freud was well-intentioned. Labour Members maturity in debating these issues. can use their friends in the metropolitan media and the Unemployment for people with disabilities exceeds charities to try to score a political advantage, but they 50%. Among those with severe learning disabilities, the will be the ones who suffer next year at the ballot box. figure is more than 90%. Many of those people want to Success in politics is not measured by how much of a work, and I would expect every Member to want to see hoo-hah we can generate on Twitter. It is measured by those unemployment rates fall. When we tackle youth delivering on our policy objectives. Our objective is to unemployment through apprenticeships, we concede give those with disabilities the opportunity to work if that it is legitimate for employers to pay less than the they want to, and no amount of political haranguing by minimum wage and for the Government to give support the party opposite will stop us on this side of the House to employers, so why can we not consider doing that for focusing on the real challenge. If Labour Members have people with disabilities? We owe it to them to think not got anything constructive to say about this issue, constructively about what more we can do to give frankly they should shut up. employers a greater incentive to give people with disabilities a chance. The truth is that the minimum wage acts as a 2.30 pm barrier to employment when an employer judges that the amount they have to pay exceeds the value being Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I am delighted to added by the employee. It is surely self-evident that we be called, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am not going should try to identify what we can do to eliminate that to shut up. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie barrier. I am not talking about people being worth less; Doyle-Price) and I serve on the Public Accounts Committee, I am talking about making practical interventions to fix so she knows that neither of us are prone to shutting up a problem. when the issues are important. The fact is that we, as politicians, need to deal with I agree with the right hon. Member for North West the world as it is, not how we would like it to be. If we Hampshire (Sir George Young), who has just left, that a want to achieve the outcomes that we have been talking bipartisan approach has been the best way to move the about today, we need to reflect the real world. We need agenda forward for disabled people. We have to be to work with employers to see what more we can do to careful, however, not to rewrite history. The Disability encourage them to be more ready to employ those with Discrimination Act 1995 was actually a hard-fought disabilities. Simply to sit on the sidelines and whip up campaign. My right hon. Friend the Member for hysteria about the minimum wage will quite simply fail Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) was those people. What is needed is a mature debate about one of the champions of that debate. I give credit, as I what more we can do in this space. have on more than one occasion, to the Leader of the House, who, in the teeth of opposition from the Lord Freud is an honourable man who has done Conservative party and with the support of the then more to support people with disabilities than many of Prime Minister, John Major, helped to manage this the members of rent-a-mob who have leapt on his House to a position where it accepted the claims and words with synthetic anger. His only offence was one of the campaigns of disabled people, including the campaign sloppy language. Who in this House is always completely conducted by my right hon. Friend. So we should not accurate in their use of language? Who in this House rewrite history, but there has previously been a bipartisan has never made a mistake? The way in which Labour approach. Members have inflamed this row has shown them at their holier-than-thou worst. They like to pretend that The Minister of State, Department for Work and my party is the “nasty party”. Well, I will tell them what Pensions, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), is nasty. It is distorting the comments of a decent was part of that when he was my shadow and accepted honourable man and using people with disabilities as a the basic tenets of the 2005 report published by the political football with which to beat the Government. Prime Minister’s strategy unit on improving the lives of Shame on them! disabled people. That report challenged us all to examine how we accepted our responsibilities to break down the If there is a good thing to come out of this unhappy barriers preventing disabled people from fulfilling their episode, it is that the public saw it for what it was: a potential in education and employment, and to encourage shameless piece of political opportunism. We wonder them to make an active contribution to their local why people are turning away from politics. This is a community. Work was the cornerstone of that new perfect example of why they are doing so. Politics agenda. But a statement of a right to work does not in should be about ideas and principles. Politicians should itself deliver the right to work, and we need to be clear be about leadership, not about simply being weathervanes. that the right to work for disabled people has been Today’s politicians are too scared of saying anything further undermined by the failure of this Government’s that might be construed as politically incorrect, or of employment programmes to deliver the necessary support saying anything that could be taken out of context to for disabled people. They can brush it off, but the Work write a headline. The result is that politics is becoming programme is seen by many disabled people as inflexible, bland, managerial and utterly uninspiring. It is failing baffling and little more than going through the motions. to deliver. This is a perfect example of an issue that we should Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) be debating in a more grown-up manner. If we do not (Lab): I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for her talk about the world as it is in a mature way, there are kind remarks. Is she aware that only a few weeks ago 209 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 210 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Citizens Advice Scotland published a compelling document and, as such, he should have had the integrity to resign. detailing case study after case study on the issues she is As he failed to do that, the Prime Minister definitely raising? Does she agree that that is important to this should dismiss him. debate? Several hon. Members rose—

Mrs McGuire: Let me hark back to the comments Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. made by the hon. Member for Thurrock and say that it It will be obvious to the House that a large number of is not some weird conspiracy of charities, Labour politicians Members wish to speak and limited time is available. and disabled people that is creating the environment Therefore, after the next speaker, I will have to reduce where people are suffering because of the ways in which the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to five minutes. the Government have carried forward their employment programme. 2.37 pm I congratulate our two Labour Front Benchers today, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I have (Kate Green) and my right hon. Friend the Member for worked closely with Lord Freud, particularly on the East Ham (Stephen Timms), because they have recently jam jar bank accounts that will probably have to be put on the record how the Labour party would devolve introduced because of universal credit and the fact that responsibility for some of the support for disabled some people are less adequate than others at coping people, taking a new approach and ensuring that it is with money, bills and so on. He has such an insightful more locally based within the employment market. We mind and his only focus is on finding ways to assist need to ensure that the new approach of our party is people who do not have all their faculties to cope as best not top-down; if we do not involve disabled people in they can in society. It is the most disgraceful situation the planning and development of programmes that when a gentleman such as that is traduced and he have an impact on their lives, we will have lost our way. I cannot speak for himself because the Opposition have am sure that we will take forward that particular model brought this debate to this Chamber and not the other of involvement of disabled people. place. I find that astonishing and cheap. The Opposition The Minister made great play of the talk about should look themselves in the mirror— cynicism. May I say that disabled people have for the past four years been the subject of the most cynical Ian Lavery: Does the hon. Lady also find astonishing campaign in modern social political history? They have the remarks that Lord Freud made initially? been subject to a campaign that vilified them from the beginning. It started with a premise that disability benefits Heather Wheeler: The difficulty we all have is this is were the subject of widespread fraud and that, by a garbled piece of tape; we are listening to an answer to definition, disabled people were cheating the system. It a question from a father who was asking Lord Freud progressed by plucking an arbitrary figure—some whether he would allow something to happen for his 600,000—out of the air and saying those people would child. That is where this synthetic anger and the appalling lose their benefits. It ended with a mess, where disabled political football that this has turned into— people no longer know what benefits they will get, how long it will take to get a decision and whether they can Ian Lavery: Did the hon. Lady say “garbled message”? apply in the first place. The Minister is a nice person but Is she saying that Lord Freud did not say what the press it takes some brass neck to come to this House, acknowledge are claiming he said? there is a problem, forget that the Government created the backlog and then try to take the credit for reducing Heather Wheeler: The tape is very difficult to hear. the very backlog that their policies have made happen. I The father who asked the question has clarified the hope that he will reflect on what he said. situation. Lord Freud felt that he needed to apologise, and people should accept that apology. He was answering Let me deal briefly with Lord Freud’s comments, a question from the father who was asking for that to because they show just how much we have lost in the happen. Which bit of that do the Opposition not get? past four years. The fact that the Government’s Under- Secretary of State for Welfare Reform thought that Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- some disabled people could work for £2 an hour was op): Does the hon. Lady believe that disabled people not just a “mis-speak” but was more attributable to a should have the right to be paid at least the minimum mindset. No amount of apology from the noble Lord wage for employment? could disguise the fact that not only did he “mis-speak”, but his comments challenged a vision that disabled Heather Wheeler: What I would really like is for us to people thought they had agreed with us: that they can see more than 10% of severely disabled people getting work where possible and they should be treated equally into work. This matter goes back to the work that we as in that regard. If we start to finesse the payment for MPs do in our constituencies. I am talking about the work, where will this stop? A minimum wage is a help that we give to those who come to our constituency minimum wage is a minimum wage; the Government surgeries—help with volunteering and help with references. cannot start to segment it. The people I have seen over the past few years have I felt desperately sad when I read Lord Freud’s comments. gone on and secured really good jobs. Fitting people I want to say to him that rights cannot be traded. They into the right position is so difficult. The truth is that are not given but are intrinsic to us all as members of a people have bad days, and that is tough for the employer. democratic society. Lord Freud showed by his crass The employer may be involved in the white heat of “mis-speaking” that he has failed to understand that, technology, and Gladys cannot turn up because she is 211 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 212 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Heather Wheeler] State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) was able to be having a bad day. We have to find suitable positions, there—I came across two articles, which helped me to because employers want disabled people to be fully make my point. This issue is at the core of people’s functioning parts of society. They want to provide really perception of this Parliament. In the Evening Standard, good jobs and to help people. I see all sorts of jobs Armando Iannucci wrote an article entitled, “Why available, and have made many friends over the past politicians of all parties are kicking the poor.” Its four years—as MPs we collect friends in this Chamber sub-heading said: and outside in the constituency. We now have 400 extra “Demonising genuine welfare claimants as skivers and benefit people working in jobcentres specifically helping disabled cheats is simply creating a more divided society.” people to get into work. That is the sort of positive stuff Some people might think that that is over the top, but we should be talking about. there was also an article on the same subject in The The aim of all of us has been totally clouded by this Guardian this morning. It asked this question: why, in ludicrous debate today. We should be going back to the addressing poverty, were we hounding a woman because days when we had a bipartisan arrangement and when she did not turn up for a disability examination and she what we all wanted was for everybody to get on, to get a stole from a food bank? She was faced with all the abuse proper job and to feel that they were contributing to that a court could provide. society. I can see plenty of people in this Chamber hanging their heads in shame. It is absolutely amazing. I Mike Kane: My right hon. Friend is making an really hope that the cameras are picking that up excellent speech. Poverty is high on the agenda when we —[Interruption.] No, I will certainly not name them. face our constituents day in, day out. My constituent This has been a poor debate, and we have not seen the Matt Hopkins has faced real hardship. He applied for Chamber at its best. It has been a wasted opportunity his PIP assessment in June 2013—he approached Paul for the Opposition. It would have been so much better if Goggins, my predecessor, about the matter—and he did they had come to this debate with real ideas, so that not receive a payment until June 2014. they could work with us. I heard just one idea from the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). Mr Clarke: I accept my hon. Friend’s serious point. That is just not good enough. The Opposition have In this morning’s debate on whether we really understand played the wrong ball. The public and the audience in the hardship that is being inflicted on people with “Question Time” had it right: playing the man and not disabilities and on whether it was the right way for a the ball is not a good idea. Minister to express his views, I gave some examples of what was happening in my constituency. I also repeated the views of Citizens Advice Scotland. Let me give a 2.43 pm couple of examples of the points that I made. I mentioned Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) that four out of five advisers at Citizens Advice Scotland (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for said that the delays are causing worsening health and, in Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) on an excellent nine out of 10 cases, additional stress and anxiety, not maiden speech, and very much welcome the tribute that to mention the financial strain that people live under she paid to our dear friend, Jim Dobbin. while their claims are assessed. The House will know that, for many years, I have I also gave figures from my constituency. Over a long been involved in disability activities. I have worked with period, applications for what is now PIP,formerly disability Members from both sides of the House—John Hammond, living allowance, have been lying for months and months Nick Scott, Jack Ashley, Alf Morris and Sir John Major. without being dealt with. Citizens Advice seems powerless As my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling in this situation. I gave examples of case after case of (Mrs McGuire) said, I shadowed the present Leader of real hardship. The people whom I represent and the the House when the 1995 Act was going through the people with disabilities are looking to this Parliament, House. There was, at that time, a genuine spirit of and what is our response? The Minister of State, for consensus from which we are now departing. whom I have great respect, helped me make my case I have listened with great respect to the speeches of when he sought to persuade the House by saying that Government Members, including that of the hon. Member Lord Freud had also advised Lord Hutton. But that is for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler), and I have to the point—a huge number of people simply do not trust say that the issue is much, much deeper than simply a this establishment. A huge number of people are conflict between two political parties. I do not want to experiencing poverty, and a huge number of people spend too much time on Lord Freud, except to say that with disabilities are seeing themselves as victims, not as given what he said, I do not believe that Clement Attlee recipients of the compassion that this House should or Harold Macmillan would have kept him in government provide. People are waiting for many, many months for for more than 10 minutes. The issues here are profound. money that they desperately need and for other passported They include a perception of this House, which is benefits. They are worried, as am I. I do not think that reflected in the support for the main political parties in Lord Freud was the best person to speak for this House every part of the United Kingdom, and in the or for this Parliament at such a dangerous time. understanding of people with disabilities and disabled organisations of the change we mean to deliver at a time 2.49 pm of enormous poverty. Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I, too, would like to I am not alone in that view. When I was preparing for pay tribute to the new Member, the hon. Member for a very important debate that I initiated in Westminster Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), for a really Hall this morning—I was delighted that the Minister of interesting speech, and a charming and moving description 213 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 214 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform of her constituency. I congratulate her on her success in sensed that her heart was not in it. We have a choice to what I know was a hard-fought campaign. She is one of debate issues sensibly and seriously and not to take the a number of Members who have come here recently, easy political route. We have had a great debate in parts and will no doubt come here in the next few months, today, but it was nothing to do with what is in the after fighting in by-elections that might prefigure the motion. I respectfully suggest that the Opposition withdraw next election and the difficulties that all hon. Members the motion rather than put it to a vote. have with populist politicians who wish to paint this place and many of those who work here as people who 2.55 pm do not listen, do not care and are interested only in themselves. I am very glad that she managed to make Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): I listened her case to her electorate, and that they, by a margin with care and some sympathy to the hon. Member for narrower than I imagine she would have wished, accepted Ipswich (Ben Gummer). I remind him of the Quaker her argument that, irrespective of the history of the saying that he or she who would do good must begin Labour party or of the current travails of its leadership, with minute particulars. That is why today I want to she was best able to represent the community that she touch on some of those particulars, which are not clearly cares very much about. minute at all for my constituents in Blackpool South, which has a larger than average number of people with That goes to the nub of the motion—the word “trust”, disabilities, often people who do not have family or on the fourth line, which is what the Opposition are close friends in the area. That is why two years ago trying to get at. What frustrates me about this debate is when we were having all sorts of difficulties with Atos that it really is a debate of two parts. and the work capability assessment, I initiated an I will leave the opening speech for a moment, because Adjournment debate when I pointed out some of the we have heard a number of significant contributions real issues with Motability, the revolving door of appeals, from Members who have far more experience than and the inability of Atos to deal with work capability I have of the difficulties facing people with disability, as assessment. Sadly, some of those issues are still relevant well as from Members who have experienced the difficulties today. Even though Atos has been removed from the of reform of the benefit system, under the previous and work capability assessment, it has not yet been replaced, current Governments, in which I also have experience, as and in the north-west it remains in charge of the personal do others who will no doubt speak in the next few minutes. independence payment process. On top of all the problems No one could not be affected by the significant speeches that we have heard today, my area has a particular of the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), problem because people cannot even get to an assessment or of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North centre nearby. and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who is one of the finest Our citizens advice bureau wrote to me last year speakers in the House. I am also happy once again to about a matter that I have raised with Ministers and on follow a man I admire enormously, the right hon. Member the Floor of the House and with all sorts of people. We for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), only have a medical assessment centre for PIP medicals who makes powerful points. Something rather like a in Preston, which is some way from the centre of Blackpool, centrifugal force has imposed itself, because all those not near public transport and certainly off the beaten Members have returned to the core issue of disability track. It is fraught with issues such as costing residents and left aside the motion on the Order Paper. That is more money to get there, longer journeys with people because most people in the House really do care passionately not familiar with where they are going and probably about why they are here. needing a taxi, and so on. When I asked why clients There was a very good speech given at the beginning were expected to travel that distance, the reply from the of the summer, at the Royal Institute of British Architects, PIP implementation team directed me to the Atos website, which included the following opening statements: which stated that DWP guidance permits a client to “Our biggest obstacle…is cynicism. The belief that nobody travel 90 minutes one way for work or a job interview. can make a difference. That all politics is the same. Voters believe Indeed it does, but that totally misses the salient point we value posturing more than principle. Good photos or soundbites that these are people with illnesses, disability and stress. more than a decent policy. Image more than ideas. And it is no surprise that people think that. Because so often the terms of I have spent some time trying to winkle out of Atos trade of politics—the way it is discussed and rated—has become and the Minister and his officials where we are up to in about the manufactured, the polished, the presentational. Politics the process. I had a meeting with them at our party is played out as showbiz, a game, who is up and who is down. conference and I was then told by the Atos manager Rather than the best chance a lot of people have to change their that they were working on it and would have an assessment lives. And things are judged far more on style than substance. But centre by mid-2015. When I asked whether he had been this political culture, this photo-op politics, denies people a from Blackpool to the Preston centre, he said he had, debate about the things that really matter. And that does deep harm to our country. It leaves politics a game that fewer and fewer and when I asked how, he said, “By car.” That really people are watching, or believing. People’s sense of the artificiality, sums it up. On 17 August the Minister wrote to say that the triviality, the superficiality of politics is more highly tuned he was sorry that there was nothing that he could than ever. And the more it seems this is what matters to us, the usefully add to what I had been told, which was basically more the public are put off. Unless we stand up now and say that that we would have to wait until mid-June. It is not we want to offer people something different, more and more will surprising that he had nothing useful to add because simply turn away.” neither he nor his officials had had anything useful to That was a speech by the Leader of Her Majesty’s say to prod Atos into action on this and a series of Opposition called “The Choice”. other areas. We have a choice in this debate, and that is why I am The best way of looking at these issues is to look at sad, because I really respect the shadow Minister. We what comes to us from our caseworkers. In particular, I have been in Public Bill Committees together, and I too pay tribute to my caseworker, Gillian Tomlinson, who 215 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 216 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Mr Gordon Marsden] This motion is an example of political opportunism, and we have known that from the first. How did the subject works tirelessly in this area. I want to quote a couple of come into the public domain? Was it done in an upright examples. She talks about Mrs B, who contacted us in and what we might call manly way? No, not a bit of it. June 2014, who receives the highest rate care and mobility Somebody was sent undercover to the Tory party and is practically housebound. She applied for employment conference. Some socialist, no doubt wearing a dirty and support allowance in January and Atos told her mackintosh, crept in to hear the noble Lord Freud that a home visit would not be authorised. Finally she make a few comments at the party conference. Was that has been placed in the ESA support group. Mrs W the upright fashion we expect even from the Labour contacted us in extreme distress. She failed a work party, or was it actually a rather underhand approach to capability assessment and ESA stopped immediately. political debate? She is a vulnerable lady who found the whole process What was then done with the tape recording, this difficult to understand. gold dust of political embarrassment? Was it brought My caseworker says: “The whole mandatory forth and released to the newspapers? No. As the hon. reconsideration process continues to be concerning, in Lady said, it was kept to the most important part of the as much as ESA benefits are stopped immediately after parliamentary week. Parliament was in recess, so we a claimant is advised that they are fit for work. It seems had to wait for the revelation to come forth. One to me that the whole process is now being made so wonders why Prime Minister’s questions was suddenly complex that the Government are hoping that people in the eyes of the Leader of the Opposition. He must be will not go through it and will accept the decision a glutton for punishment if that was his view, for surely made.” That is indeed the case. The excellent Alan Reid, most Leaders of the Opposition think that other occasions who manages my Disability First centre, says: “To us are more enjoyable, for example when it is they, rather people come desperate and, in some cases, suicidal.” than the Prime Minister, who have the final word. The That remains the case. That is why Lord Freud’s comments recording was held back as an example of pure political were so damaging and so difficult for disabled people to opportunism, to be used at a point when it could accept. inconvenience the Prime Minister the most. Even our great Prime Minister cannot know everything that is said by every junior Minister at every meeting at 3pm a party conference. His mind may be full of many Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): May things, but even his mind, great as it is, cannot hold that I add my congratulations to those already offered to the many things all at once. Inevitably, the Minister came hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) under a bit of flack, and he apologised. I do not know on a fine maiden speech? I was a great admirer of her the noble Lord Freud—I have been in the same room as predecessor, who was a wonderful man and an ornament him, but I have never met him—but the hon. Member to the House of Commons. He was, among other things, for Stretford and Urmston said that he is courteous and a papal knight. I am delighted that the hon. Lady is compassionate. So we have a courteous and compassionate following in his footsteps with her excellent speech. man who is contributing to the development and discussion I want to move on from excellent speeches and things of public policy, and in so doing he said some words that made politics look as though they are for good and that he should not have said. honourable people to the less pleasant subject of political How is public policy to be developed if every time opportunism. Political opportunism, of course, is something somebody says something that is a little bit interesting that plagues the political world and which we all have to or beyond the consensus, their name is hauled before deal with. Some people are very good at it. Alex Salmond this Chamber and their resignation demanded? Are we comes to mind as an expert in that art. Some people might to allow no development of public policy? Are we say that Nigel Farage is good at political opportunism, always to have witless comments being made in a politically although others might think that he is more inspired correct way that allows nobody to consider what is in than that. I am afraid, however, that the hon. Member the real interests of people who are sometimes the most for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) is not good at deprived in society? Are we to do nothing to help them political opportunism; she is far too serious-minded improve their condition or enable the state to assist and able a figure to lower herself to such depths. them in getting out of the levels of deprivation they are in? Are we to be so fearful, so frightened and so terrified It is interesting that the Labour party’s heart is not of people sent around to spy on public meetings that we really in political opportunism. I notice that the shadow never develop policy at all? If that is what the socialists Secretary of State is not here. No doubt that is for very want, they are wrong. good reasons, but very good reasons for detaining senior political figures sometimes align to a remarkable degree 3.5 pm with the disagreeability of the subject they have to discuss. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): It is I recall that a former Prime Minister, John Major, was always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North detained by a serious toothache at a crucial point when East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). The other week, the leadership of the Conservative party was at stake. when the House debated the minimum wage, considerable reference was made to the comments of Lord Freud Heather Wheeler: His wisdom teeth. that are under scrutiny today. I alluded to those comments in passing and called them disgraceful, and I stand by Jacob Rees-Mogg: Yes, my hon. Friend is right. I that today. However, in holding Government Ministers hope that the shadow Secretary of State is not having to account for their statements, it is important not to problems with her dentist and that her absence is merely lose sight of the underlying issues: the disadvantages because she dislikes the subject under discussion. that disabled people face in the labour market; the 217 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 218 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform disproportionate numbers of disabled people experiencing disabled working-age adults, and 40% of disabled children, economic hardship; and the diminishing support for live in low-income households. In other words, disabled disabled people as a direct and indirect consequence of people are twice as likely to live on low incomes than Government policy. those without a disability. I fear that the changes in the It is worth reminding ourselves that the minimum benefits system will only exacerbate those problems. wage is not a living wage. If someone is working full Before I finish my remarks, I want to talk about the time on the minimum wage, the chances are that they bedroom tax. It is one of those policies that was not are already receiving additional benefits to bring their aimed at disabled people, yet even the Government’s standard of living up to an acceptable minimum, especially own impact assessment found that two thirds of the if they are living in private rented accommodation or households affected were home to someone with a have dependants. The minimum wage really is a minimum disability, and in Scotland that figure was 80%. I do not wage—the clue is in the name—so any suggestion that know why the Government did not just go back to the working adults should be paid any less than that is, in drawing board. Instead, we heard all this rhetoric about my view, simply unacceptable. It defeats the purpose of spare bedrooms, when the reality is that the people who a minimum floor for wages if that floor can be undercut had the least choice about where they live were being for disabled employees. picked on in hugely disproportionate numbers. I wonder whether there is a tacit acknowledgement in What has been really pernicious in the debate about the Minister’s comments that the Government are failing benefit changes over the past few years is the way in those who struggle to secure even low-paid work in a which claimants have been stigmatised and berated. competitive market economy. We know how tough the The sense that anyone who is on benefits for a long time labour market is in some parts of the country, even for is a malingerer, a scrounger or even a benefits cheat has people with fairly good skills and qualifications. I have become deeply ingrained in the public discourse, and said before in the House that we need to acknowledge not nearly enough has been done here to counter that. more openly the barriers and challenges that some That brings me back to the motion, which calls for disabled people face in accessing the labour market. the removal of a Minister. I do not take that lightly Unlike the Minister, however, that leads me to conclude because—let us face it—lots of people make offensive not that those people should be paid some minimum comments all the time. However, far more important wages for their time and labour, but that we need to be than the fact that the Under-Secretary has lost the much more realistic about the kind of support some confidence of this House is the fact that he has lost the individuals need to secure and sustain employment and, confidence of the disabled people affected by a wide above all, that we need to stop stigmatising those whose range of Government policies. Those are the people on health and disabilities make it hard for them to access whom we need to focus. the labour market and hold down a job. Almost half of disabled people of working age are in 3.10 pm employment. Disabled people are, however, more likely Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I very much wanted to be in low-paid work and to report unfair treatment in to take part in this debate so I greatly appreciate being the workplace than non-disabled people. There is no called to speak given that I must apologise to the House doubt that many disabled people are overcoming huge for not having been here for all the opening speeches. I hurdles on a daily basis, perhaps because they are was at a meeting with the Home Secretary that could grappling with chronic pain, mobility problems and a not be changed. First, I add my congratulations to the range of invisible barriers that take a lot more out of newly elected Member for Heywood and Middleton them than they take out of able-bodied people. However, (Liz McInnes) on her very good maiden speech. I there are many more who, in spite of their efforts, associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend cannot get a job or whose fluctuating health condition the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) about the makes it harder for them to stay in work. Today the See importance of her victory, which virtually the whole Me campaign has launched a programme in Scotland House will celebrate. called “People Like You”to tackle mental health stigma I am surprised that the Opposition are continuing and discrimination in the workplace, so our debate their witch hunt against Lord Freud. I did not agree today is timely. Raising awareness with employers and with the form of words that he used, for which he has work forces is very important, but the Government also apologised. I would have thought that after the drubbing need to ensure that disabled people’s rights are protected the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for in the workplace and that those who cannot work get Wallasey (Ms Eagle), received on “Question Time”, the support they need. they might have learnt their lesson about the pursuit of The enormous changes to the benefits system over this individual for some remarks that he made in answer the past few years have impacted directly on disabled to a question by a family member of someone who was people and those with long-term health conditions. I affected by this distressing issue without rephrasing will not dwell on the work capability assessment or the their words. I think that is about the sum of it. I have Work programme, but I will say something about personal spoken to him about this. He in no way marks down the independence payments. People in my constituency have worth of people with disabilities that have nothing to been waiting for more than nine months for a PIP do with the economic value that they might add to an assessment, which has caused serious stress and financial enterprise in the workplace. hardship, but it has also put pressure on the NHS, the We have to face the fact that while many people local authority and those people’s families. desperately want to work—to find an occupation where The links between poverty and disability in our society they can be of some value and make a contribution—there have not been mentioned today as much as I had is sometimes an issue about whether their value can be expected. It is important to remember that one in three recognised economically, and that might call for more 219 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 220 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Margot James] The companies that have been brought on board by the Government’s Disability Confident campaign have Government intervention. The Opposition have not made a real difference. I pay tribute to Sainsbury’s and addressed that. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool Waitrose in my constituency. Nationally, Sainsbury’s North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) put this very well, has employed 2,000 people with disabilities through its and he reminded the House that only 10% of people You Can initiative. I pay tribute to the Government for with learning disabilities are in work. We should all be changing the whole ethos—seeing what people with ashamed of that and seek an answer to it rather than disabilities can do. It really is a credit to the Secretary of conducting a witch hunt against a man who is giving his State and his team that they have improved those people’s time, without any remuneration at all, to try to help chances of finding work. The results are there for all to people with disabilities. see. The Opposition have a track record in this area. For 10 years, before 2008 or thereabouts, almost 1 million 3.16 pm people with disabilities were more or less parked on Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I am very various incapacity benefits—out of sight, out of mind, grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me with no review. the opportunity to speak in this debate, because I have Kate Green: I want to put the record straight. People to apologise to my right hon. Friend the Member for were parked on incapacity benefit going right back to East Ham (Stephen Timms) and to the Minister for the 1980s, and in the early 2000s the Labour Government Employment for the fact that, because of a long-standing began to explore policies that ultimately led to the engagement, I will not be here for the closing speeches. employment and support allowance and work capability I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for assessment, which were endorsed by both parties. It is Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) on her maiden not right to say that Labour policies parked people speech, which I was so pleased to be in the Chamber to there only over the past 10 years. hear. I thank East Lothian council’s welfare rights team Margot James: I thank the hon. Lady for her for their support. I also thank the two citizens intervention, which was slightly premature, because I advice bureaux in my constituency, in Haddington and was going to carry on to give the Opposition some Musselburgh, which always wait until the last minute credit for what they belatedly started to do in government before they finally come to me to pick up the pieces —with, I must tell the House, the help of Lord Freud, from the mess that this Government have made of which is an irony not lost on me. welfare reform. We must not forget some of the things that the We have heard calls for maturity in this debate, but I previous Government did. They appointed Atos. They am afraid that I get a little emotional talking about this left this Government with the legacy of a fairly draconian issue having had a Thursday and a Friday like I did in system that made no allowances for people with mental my constituency, when several people came to see me health issues who took part in work capability assessments about their ability to access work. I saw Allison and in the early days. Some of those people had fluctuating Graeme, deaf constituents who were possibly not going conditions that meant that if they went for their assessment to be able to continue in their employment because of on a bad day, they might get somewhere, but if it what this Government are doing with the interpreters happened to be a good day, they would not. No account they need to be able to access work. I saw a woman who was taken of that. This Government brought in Professor had been on ESA for a year who, having made an Harrington, who conducted a number of reviews that application to go into the support group, has now had a have humanised the system considerably. Now we are letter saying that her ESA is going to stop next month. looking to find a new provider that will take the place of She does not know what she is going to live on. I saw a the Atos, which, as I have said, we inherited from the woman who had had a heart attack, who was turned previous Government. down for a PIP, and now has to go back to work The previous Government did try to start getting full-time long before her doctor feels that she should be people with disabilities into work, but they needed to doing so. will the means as well as the ends. It was not enough I have written to the Minister about the case of just to go round closing day centres and pushing people Mr and Mrs O’Connor, and we have finally had a into the community. Their mantra was that everybody response. I do not know if that is because I intervened. I had to be in work before they could set about tackling never like to think that my intervention gets someone discrimination, tackling the fact that a lot of businesses more than the treatment they are entitled to, but Mr and were ignorant about how to employ people with disabilities, Mrs O’Connor really deserve help. Mr O’Connor has and trying to change public attitudes. As a result of this T-cell lymphoma cancer. He has had his spleen removed. Government’s more painstaking approach, some of He has diabetes, neuropathy in his hands and his feet, those issues have been tackled at source, working kidney problems, heart failure, and severe back pain with industry and employers. The number of disabled that requires pain relief injections. He needs help with people in employment is up by 116,000 this year. Over all his self-care, and his mobility is extremely limited 35,000 people with disabilities have been helped by the because he uses two walking crutches and a wheelchair Access to Work scheme. I accept what was said earlier when outside. He applied for a PIP in February this about the possibility that not everybody on the Work year. I would like the Minister to explain—I promise I Choice programme is a proper candidate for it, but that will check the transcript of the debate—why people are is down to implementation, which all Governments not getting acknowledgements when they lodge a claim wrestle with. The majority of the 27,000 people who for a PIP, because they are then left wondering whether have been helped have been eligible. the claim is being looked at. 221 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 222 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Indeed, in Mr O’Connor’s case, despite the PIP2 House to improve the lives of the disabled. I think that form having been sent in March, it was not until this Labour Members who care as passionately as the hon. month—October—that Atos called to say it had looked Member for East Lothian does will realise that this has at the paperwork. When I wrote to the Minister’s been a grossly missed opportunity. The right hon. Member predecessor in February, I was told that the Department for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) said was on a learning curve, but it must be going around in that he did not want to talk about Lord Freud. I agree circles because the situation has not changed since then. with him, but the whole debate is about Lord Freud These are people whose lives are already incredibly when it should be about how we ensure that we get difficult, but this Government are pushing them to the more people with disabilities into work. point where their lives are unbearable. That is simply Many Members on both sides of the House support not good enough. charities, and I am proud to say that I am a patron for The Minister spoke about the extra money going into Mind in St Albans. I was pleased to present the first the Access to Work programme. There has been a pause “way to work”campaign commemorative statuette, which because the Department did not understand the impact encourages employers to take a flexible and thoughtful the situation would have on deaf people who need approach to working with people with mental disabilities interpreters. I hope the Minister will update the House and mental illness. I found it slightly depressing, however, on how that work is going. that not many employers in my constituency took up There has been praise for the new assessment system, that opportunity. The scheme ran for only one year, but one thing we did better than this Government was which is why I am pleased to renew my efforts to work to make awards for life. The father of two daughters with Mind. We need to find a way to get more people who have cerebellar ataxia and whose conditions are back into work. never going to improve—his family live with that loss My constituent John supports the Conservative party— and that pain every day—has to fill out a form every that is, when he is not leaving us and voting for UKIP, two years repeating everything his daughters cannot Labour or another party. He takes a keen interest in and never will be able to do. How does the Minister politics and has spoken to me on numerous occasions. think that that improves the quality of his life or that of Sadly, when he was three—44 years ago—he had an his daughters? I would like an answer to that question. accident in which he nearly drowned. It has left John I know that some Conservative Members thought it having to deal with profound challenges in his life, but was political opportunism to refer to Lord Freud’s he wants to get into work. That is what this House remarks, but the position that we all claim to hold—namely, should be addressing today: how can we improve the that every life is of equal worth and value—underpins lives of people like John who are in the 10% and are what the minimum wage was about. As the mother of a finding it difficult? He does not want charity, but he daughter with cerebral palsy and epilepsy, the thing I does want the opportunity to engage in society and to found so offensive about Lord Freud’s remarks was his have all the benefits that come with work—on top of use of the word “worth.” the monetary ones—and the dignity it brings. I have compassion. Perhaps I will make some dreadful As I have said, my hon. Friend the Member for mistakes during my time in this House, but I pledge that Blackpool North and Cleveleys spoke passionately and if I ever do anything on that scale I will have the suggested a way forward to try to help people like John humility and self-awareness to resign. who have to deal with significant challenges to integrate in the work force, which is where they want to be. Let us not pretend, however, that this is an easy subject and 3.22 pm that brickbats can be thrown at the nasty party and Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I pay tribute to people who supposedly do not care. People do care. I the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) think we actually all want the same result—the discussion for speaking so passionately on behalf of her constituents. is about how we get there—but to have a whole debate What annoys me is that some Labour Members—not on the ill-judged remarks of someone who has apologised the hon. Lady; I am absolutely certain of that—feel that profoundly for them is a wasted opportunity. they are the only ones who feel compassion or concern I look forward to hearing the summing-up speeches and that Conservative Members could not possibly be of the two Front Benchers. Lots of issues have been concerned about their constituents. The Minister made raised, and I am not saying that there are no problems. a measured opening speech, in which he pointed out My postbag is like any other; I am sure we all know of that it is what is not being discussed in this debate that is difficulties with the Access to Work programme and so telling. some of the systems that have been put in place. Yes, we The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate can blame the previous lot for leaving us with the legacy Green) raised many excellent points that could have of Atos, and yes, we know it is not perfect while we are been discussed at length, but no—the whole debate had trying to deal with it, but let us be realistic: people who to be focused on Lord Freud’s comments and a call for are having trouble accessing work as a result of disability his scalp. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool and mental illness deserve better from this House than North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) spoke passionately we have heard today. This motion does this House a —he ditched his speech—and said that this House is so disservice, because all it does is call for the scalp of much better when we focus on what we can do, what we somebody who has apologised for his remarks and can bring to this House and what we can achieve whose life history shows that he has actually tried to together with a consensual approach. work for the betterment of those people who have This whole debate is focused on some ill-judged remarks difficulties accessing work as a result of disability. by a man who has apologised and who has a track record of working with parties on both sides of the Several hon. Members rose— 223 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 224 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. I want to refer to the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report A great many people still wish to speak, so I will have to in which we detailed several concerns about the Work reduce the time limit to four minutes. programme in Wales. It has a very poor rate of success in Wales, with only one in 20 people in the disabled category being found a position. That success rate of 3.26 pm 5% is disgraceful. It does not compare favourably with Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I rise to speak in this the rate of 7% in Britain as a whole, and it certainly debate because I feel very strongly that every disabled does not compare favourably with that for able-bodied individual, no matter what their disability, deserves to people. Oxfam Cymru described some appalling practices: have the utmost respect and to be valued for their skills. “People who were seen as furthest away from the labour We should be doing all we can to break down the very market were de-prioritised and only got any support at all after real barriers that prevent disabled people from taking a having very strong local advocacy.” full part both in the workplace and in social activities. It also referred to the “absence of personalised support”. Before I turn to the concerns of disabled people in my The then Work and Pensions Minister, the hon. Member constituency about the effect of Government policies for Fareham (Mr Hoban), told us: on them, I want to pay tribute to the Llanelli Disabled “Work providers…need to improve their employer engagement Access Group. Sadly, it has had to wind up its activities effort. They need to increase the supply of jobs that are available this month, but over the past few years it has done to people who have been out of work for some time.” a really good job advising people on how to adapt The Work and Pensions Committee called for a national both public and private buildings, inspecting those action plan, before the end of 2013, to engage employers buildings and giving out awards for good practice. The in the Work programme. Will the Minister tell us what group’s work has been excellent and it will be sorely progress has been made in getting better engagement missed. from employers, and give us categorical assurances that no such approaches to employers involve employing I will briefly mention PIP assessments, which I am anybody on less than the minimum wage? We are so extremely worried about. I have several constituency concerned about the comments of the Minister for cases of great concern, because people are in real financial Welfare Reform because we feel that they may betray a difficulties. One constituent applied for PIP in September hidden Government agenda. That is why we need such 2013 and had the medical assessment in December, but assurances. did not finally receive the benefit until September this year. Another applied in July 2013, but had not even As my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling had the medical assessment by June 2014. People are (Mrs McGuire) explained so well, there has been a therefore having to wait a whole year. After having been concerted attack on disabled people, and talk of swingeing to an assessment, they are very often told to go for cuts to the incomes of those who are already among the another one. They ask whether they should go to it and poorest in society but who are portrayed as scroungers. are told that they should not, because they have already Sadly, there has been a rise in the number of incidents been to one, but they then get a letter saying that their of hate crime. There is a real responsibility on everybody benefit has been cut off anyway. These sorts of things in government to do their utmost to combat negative must really be put right. I hope that the Minister with images and ensure that we give disabled people the responsibility for disabled people will make a real effort respect they deserve. We should do all we can to enable to get such things right for these people. them to fulfil their potential, whether in the workplace or in other spheres of their lives. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree with constituents of mine who have asked 3.33 pm me to convey that the repeated changes are hitting Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- disabled people in multiple ways—the year-long wait op): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for for a PIP decision, or being hit by the bedroom tax—and Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) on her passionate really terrifying them? Does she agree that we should maiden speech. She gave us a tour of her constituency, never underestimate the real fear they experience during which will encourage us to revisit it. She spoke with a year of waiting for such support? great knowledge and sincerity about the problems of the bedroom tax for her constituents. Those problems Nia Griffith: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. are shared by constituents in my area and right across There are certainly some very real concerns, and I know the UK, and it is exactly for those reasons that the that many of my constituents are very worried about policy should be repealed. what will happen during the transition from DLA to Government Members have suggested that my hon. PIP.We obviously very much hope that the Government Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate will sort these things out long before our constituents Green) somehow did not have her heart in the debate, are put through the process. but I cannot think of anyone who has more heart for I want to express very real concerns about people tackling inequality and poverty. She has a tremendous with degenerative conditions being put in the work-related track record on that, and she made several very important activity group. It is terrible to have a degenerative points. Sadly, whether or not the noble Lord’s remarks condition—it is horrible to have a sort of life sentence—but were meant to cause offence, the reality is that they have it is worse to be constantly called in. The Minister says caused both offence and hurt. that that is to see whether they need extra help, but they In the short time that I have, I shall concentrate on may already receive the highest level of support, so that three issues that disabled people in my constituency is rather difficult to believe. They should be exempted have come to me about. The first is a lack of understanding from repeated assessments. of long-term conditions. I have dealt with people with 225 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 226 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform multiple sclerosis and Parkinson’s, people who have More than 2 million of those people had a sanction where children on the extreme end of the autistic spectrum payments were stopped for at least four weeks. Last and, recently, somebody with a very rare condition, all year, the number of people with disabilities or long-term of whom have been called to repeated assessments or conditions on employment and support allowance who have been asked to travel in circumstances that make it were sanctioned increased by 250%. very difficult for them. That shows a lack of understanding David Clapson, a former soldier who had diabetes, of their conditions. was sanctioned and his money was stopped. When his People have come to speak to me about the lack of electricity was cut off, he could not keep his insulin cold help and support to get into work. They tell me that and so could not use it. Unfortunately, he died. I pay there is simply no expertise. It is not possible to get tribute to his sister, Gill Thompson, for all that she has quick access to people who understand their conditions done to raise awareness of what happened to David. and provide the tailored, personalised support that they Sadly, his is not the only case. need to get back into work. There are severe limitations More than 200,000 people signed a petition calling to the Work programme. for an independent inquiry into sanctions. Last week, Perhaps the most critical point that I want to raise in after the Government refused to hold an independent the minute or so that I have left is about the personal inquiry into the sanctions scandal, the Work and Pensions independence payment. A couple of weeks ago, I received Committee agreed to hold an inquiry into it. We will a letter from a constituent: examine the appropriateness of sanctions and their “Afterinjuring my back due to an accident at work in August 2012, efficacy and effects. We will also consider how they are I have become almost house bound. I have had one operation and used for people who are on ESA and the alternatives to now after another MRI scan I am awaiting further surgery. I am financial sanctions. in pain all the time and on many different medications including There is anecdotal evidence that it has been Government morphine… I barely go out unless my partner is here and able to drive me”. policy to have targets for sanctions. The initial findings of a research group at Oxford university show that, of He wanted to give me that brief description of what his the 2 million-plus people on JSA who were sanctioned, life is like so that I, as a politician, could understand his one in four left JSA and more than half of those did so point of view. for reasons other than employment. That blows out of My constituent told me that he made a claim for PIP the water the Government’s claims that their welfare in January by telephone. By May or June, when he had reforms are getting people back to work. not heard anything back, he telephoned again. As other In the limited time available, I also want to refer to hon. Members have said, it would help if people received the personal independence payment that has affected an acknowledgement that their case was being dealt many of my constituents. One has waited 10 months for with and a time scale that was reasonable. When he called, his assessment and been passed from pillar to post, with he was told, to his horror, that they could not find his mixed-up assessment dates and the left hand not knowing application and that he would have to do another one. what the right hand is doing. We have heard of an Since then, he has received a letter from Atos saying assessment backlog affecting 300,000 people. I hope that it was dealing with his case, but that it could take 12 that the Minister will be able to give a fuller response to 16 weeks. He called again and was told that it could than he gave to the Work and Pensions Committee take six months. when explaining why advisers were made redundant My constituent ended with the plea: when there was an escalation and backlog of cases, “I am a very genuine case”. because, quite frankly, that was inadequate. He should not have to say to me that he is a genuine case; everyone should be treated as a genuine case. It is 3.40 pm simply not good enough that people are not being dealt with quicker and are not getting the support that they Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ need, financial or otherwise. Co-op): I, too, have several constituents who have expressed to me their anger at the statement by Lord Freud. They 3.36 pm wanted me to raise those concerns in Parliament, so I am glad to have the opportunity to associate myself Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) with the motion today. As time is limited, however, I (Lab): I, too, congratulate my new neighbour, my hon. will not dwell on those comments, but concentrate Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz instead on the delays to assessments and to decisions on McInnes), who made a fantastic maiden speech. I know applications for the personal independence payment. that she will go from strength to strength. Members on both sides of the House will know that The Government’s onslaught of welfare reforms is so PIP affects many of our constituents. Countrywide the punitive and regressive that it is taking us back to the numbers are immense and underline that yet another Victorian era. People who are disabled or who have welfare reform policy from this Government is being long-term illnesses are being hit particularly hard. Any introduced in a botched and chaotic manner. According one of us could fall ill, become disabled or fall on hard to Government figures, 329,000 disabled people are times. We have a welfare system so that people have a currently stuck in a backlog to see whether they qualify safety net, but I am afraid that it is failing. for PIP. A recent powerful report from Citizens Advice The main point that I want to make in the short time Scotland, “Voices from the frontline” highlighted the that I have is about social security sanctions. The personal impact on so many people of delays in PIP Government’s sanctions regime was introduced at the assessment decisions. It estimated that claimants typically end of 2012. More than 4.5 million people on jobseeker’s wait at least six months for the assessment. A Macmillan allowance had been sanctioned by March this year. Cancer Support report last June came to the same 227 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 228 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Mark Lazarowicz] Fein’s objections to the process in Northern Ireland. The changes could have been made here, but the measures finding—cancer patients are waiting at least six months— were absent from this Chamber. and many Members will have examples from their I employ eight staff, one of whom does nothing but constituencies of much longer delays. I have had cases deal with benefits, and the task has increased greatly. I of people who applied for PIP in July or September and charities such as Disability Rights UK and Disability 2013. More than a year later they are still waiting for a Action are particularly concerned about the work capability decision. assessment for ESA. Those with acute physical and We must ask why there are such delays on PIP emotional pressures and disabilities and those who need assessments and applications. One strong argument is therapeutic work because of anxiety and depression are that there are not enough assessment centres. That is under severe pressure, which concerns me greatly. Thirty- important for people who live a long way from a centre— seven per cent. of work capability assessment decisions obviously, the more centres there are, the easier it will be were appealed, and an astonishing 23% were overturned for people to get to them. There are also indications in favour of the appellant. There are clearly problems that the number of people having face-to-face assessments with the system and it is not working correctly. is higher than the Government originally estimated and Many Members have said that all Members are that claimants’ interviews are taking longer. That may concerned about the welfare changes, but let us be clear: be a good thing, but those factors will presumably impact the changes are being made not by Members on the on the demand for assessments and the delays that result Opposition Benches but by those on the Government from that. The introduction of PIP was called a “fiasco” Benches, so let us put the blame where it lies. by the Public Accounts Committee. The accumulating Citizens Advice offered advice in September 2013 to evidence of what is happening is all the more shocking 72,000 disabled people with debt problems. It found because it is so similar to what occurred with employment that rent arrears had continued to rise and that one and support allowance and work capability assessments— third of landlords’clients advised on eviction or repossession the same company, Atos, was involved there. were disabled or had long-term health conditions. Some In the time available I want to highlight a different 12% of disabled people used food banks in 2013. aspect of this issue. For many people, delays to PIP, Members have commented on housing benefit and ESA and other benefits will not only affect their income discretionary payments. Come the new year the but have consequences for their health because of the discretionary housing benefit budget in my constituency stress involved in the delay and the associated impact on will be running out and those who need it will be under them and their families. Some people will face difficulties pressure. We are all aware of what that means. as a result of a delay. For others, the assessment will I have great concern about the bedroom tax or the come too late as they will no longer be alive. spare room subsidy, depending on one’s definition. We Let me take this opportunity briefly to raise one issue hoped that changes would be made in the Northern from the campaign by Gordon Aikman, who is well Ireland Assembly, but unfortunately they have been known in Scotland, to improve the care and support of held up. The time scale for the change from disability people with motor neurone disease. Half of those diagnosed living allowance to the personal independence payment with MND die within 14 months. Claims from people is completely unsatisfactory. with a terminal illness who are not expected to live more The independent living fund has been removed and than six months can be fast-tracked, but where does the role of devolved government and local authorities that leave people living with a rapidly progressing condition has changed. Local charities have expressed concern such as MND who may be expected to live longer— and I hope that the Government will change their although perhaps not much longer—but who could still position on the ILF. have to wait at least six months for their PIP claim to be I support the motion. assessed? I call on the Government to introduce measures to fast-track PIP applications for people with MND or 3.48 pm other rapidly progressing conditions, so that at least a decision can be made and they can get the benefits to John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): May which they are entitled. I say what a terrific speech we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes)? It presaged the contribution she will make in 3.44 pm the House. Of course Lord Freud’s statement was a disgrace, but Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the I am more worried about what he is doing than about hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) what he is saying. I opposed his appointment under the on her maiden speech. Her predecessor, Jim Dobbin, previous Government, and I did so under this one. The was a good friend of all of us in the House and was appointment of a venture capitalist to advise on welfare deeply appreciated and loved by many. We look forward benefits is bizarre. to her valuable contributions. Let me raise an issue about disabled war pensioners. Democratic Unionist party Members and other Members In July 2012 the Prime Minister visited Camp Bastion. from Northern Ireland opposed the welfare reforms. The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) quoted The necessary changes had to be made in this House, The Guardian. Let me balance things up by quoting but Sinn Fein obstructed the process in the Northern The Sun: Ireland Assembly. Those who are disabled, those who “Wounded war heroes are to keep their disability benefits for are on benefits, those who are on jobseeker’s allowance life after the PM stepped in to halt a bid to cut them. Worried and those who are taxpayers are under the cosh of Sinn veterans—including soldiers who lost limbs in battle—had been 229 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 230 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform facing humiliating re-tests that could have seen them stripped of yesterday morning. He has cerebral palsy. He worked crucial cash. But David Cameron has now slapped down the for 25 years at the local Remploy factory, which closed MoD bureaucrats and ruled that anyone left disabled by military in 2012. He came to see me before the closure because service must be exempt from benefit cuts.” he was worried that he would end up on the scrapheap. In the article, the Prime Minister was quoted as saying: Today, he believes that that is exactly where he is. “I made a promise to our forces that they will get special Promises were made about support, but he has had one treatment, and I intend to stick to it.” trial for a call centre job in the two years since the The Royal British Legion was quoted: factory closed down, and it came to nothing. The “We applaud the Prime Minister and” promises that were made have simply not been kept and the Work and Pensions Secretary help has not materialised, and disabled people have “for standing up for our wounded heroes.” been let down. Mo Stewart, a disabled veteran and disability researcher, Earlier this afternoon, I met representatives from the contacted the Cabinet Office to confirm that that was residential training colleges for disabled people and the case. The Cabinet Office said that those furthest from the workplace. Between them—there “the Cabinet has just agreed that War Pensioners can retain are nine of them—they get hundreds of people into access to DLA as an acknowledgment of their service to the work every year. They have a contract until next August. nation”. They have no idea what happens beyond that. They told At the Conservative party conference, the Prime Minister me that the Minister has repeatedly refused to meet stood up and, in a warm speech, congratulated our them despite their requests. Once again, disabled people veterans from various wars since the second world are being left in limbo. war. The problem was that, at the very same time, 80,000 veterans received a letter warning them that their Ben Gummer: The hon. Gentleman raised a sad access to DLA was about to be withdrawn, completely individual case and drew a general conclusion. Does he contrary to the statement made in July 2012 at Camp accept that since 2010 166,000 more disabled people are Bastion. in work than when we took office? The defence personnel secretariat was in utter confusion. Its briefing said that disabled war pensioners would Stephen Timms: As the Minister was right to have access to the more generous constant care allowance, acknowledge, the employment rate penalty for disabled which is a supplement added to the basic pension. That people is not going down. It was going down in the was misleading and completely incorrect. It disregarded past; it is no longer going down. Part of the reason for the fact that war pensioners need to demonstrate an that is what has happened with the Work programme. 80% disability to access the constant care allowance. In respect of people out of work on health grounds—people The recipients of the new armed forces compensation on employment and support allowance—the invitation scheme need to demonstrate a 50% permanent disability. to tender for the Work programme said that if there was There are 166,000 disabled war pensioners. Half of no programme at all, 15% of them would be expected to them—80,000—are beyond the age of 70 and will therefore get job outcomes within two years. Actual performance, retain access to disability living allowance, but the remainder with the Work programme in place, has been worse than will have to go through the same process as everyone half of that—an extraordinary failure rate of 93%. else, despite the promises and assurances given by the Prime Minister and reinforced by the Secretary of State. The Minister told us earlier that the Work programme As has been pointed out time and again by Opposition is now doing a bit better and that one in 10 people are Members, that means they will endure six to 12-month getting some help. That still means that 90% are not waits for the assessment on PIP, the non-delivery of being helped—an extraordinary failure. [Interruption.] benefits and the cutting of benefits. Is that what the What the Secretary of State is chuntering from the Prime Minister wanted when he congratulated disabled Front Bench is wrong. All the current funding for the war veterans and honoured them for the sacrifices they Work programme comes from job outcome payments. have made in the interests of this country and to defend According to a recent written answer, the Work programme this country’s interests? I do not think it was. Either, like paid out in total £332 million in job outcome payments Lord Freud, the Prime Minister misspoke, or—others between June 2011 and March 2014. Only £19 million have accused him of this—this is a betrayal, which of that was payments in respect of ESA claimants. Very would be unacceptable. little has been spent on helping disabled people back to work, so it is not surprising that so few have been helped. 3.52 pm I join other speakers in the debate in congratulating Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): We have had a my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton wide-ranging debate with thoughtful contributions from (Liz McInnes) on her excellent maiden speech. I echo hon. Members on both sides of the House about how her tribute to her predecessor, Jim Dobbin. I did a little best to support disabled people. Lord Freud’s words canvassing during her election campaign and spoke to touched a nerve with disabled people around the country one man who said he would vote for her. He has since because of their experience in the past few years. They written to me to tell me that after that he met my hon. felt that, in those words, there was an explanation of Friend and was delighted that he had made the right what has happened, such as the bedroom tax and the decision by voting for her. It was quite a long letter, delays with PIP assessments, which we have heard a lot which I have passed on to her. I know that she will have about in the debate. a very successful tenure as the local Member. In an excellent speech opening the debate, my hon. The situation does not need to be as it is at present. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate The plan that we have set out shows how we can do Green) pointed out that half of former Remploy employees much better for disabled people than we have been are still out of work. A constituent came to see me doing. We agree with the independent taskforce on 231 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 232 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform [Stephen Timms] delivered with humour, confidence and skill. I look forward to her future contributions in the House. I would also poverty and disability chaired by Sir Bert Massie, and like to pay tribute to her predecessor, Jim Dobbin, a with the think-tank the Institute for Public Policy Research, Member of the House who was much respected and well that we need to take people on ESA, other than those with liked in all parts of the House. He will be sorely missed. the very shortest diagnoses, out of the Work programme Returning to today’s motion and debate, there is one and set up a new programme for them. We understand point on which there is consensus and on which we all why Ministers wanted everybody in the same programme; agree, which is that the words used by my noble Friend it clearly has not worked. The Minister cannot pretend Lord Freud were wrong. And do you know what? He that the Work programme has been anything other than came forward immediately and said the same thing: he a failure for disabled people. We need a different approach. agreed. He apologised without reservation for his words That is the clear lesson from Australia about the advantages and then went on to explain fully how he listened to the of separate disability employment services. The new pleas of a father of a disabled child saying what he programme would move away from the outcome-based would do, who had used his same words. For clarity, funding which has clearly not worked. nothing that my noble Friend said on that occasion was We also need a much more localised approach. Partly Government policy—not now and not in the future. because of those huge regional contracts in the Work National minimum wage entitlement applies to workers programme, it has squeezed out the good local voluntary whether they are disabled or non-disabled. That is the sector expertise that can do so much to help. We want Government’s policy. instead a programme contracted at the city region/local Let me confirm that this Government’s overarching enterprise partnership level, and we want provision to ambition is to enable disabled people to fulfil their reflect the local labour market. We want local authorities, potential and fulfil their ambitions. The UK has a colleges, employers and, critically, the health service to proud history of furthering the rights of disabled people. be around the table. Such integration can be achieved at I am pleased to say that even in these very tough a city region level. It cannot be achieved, as the Government economic times, this Government have continued that have shown, from Whitehall. progress and continued to maintain this country as a The Working Well project in Manchester is a good world leader in the support it gives to disabled people, example. It is for people claiming ESA who, after two spending £60 billion a year on benefits and support for years on the Work programme, do not have a job—of those who face the greatest barriers to enable them to course, that is the great majority of people on ESA who participate fully in society. We spend nearly double the start on the Work programme. It has been commissioned OECD average, a fifth more than the European average, by the Greater Manchester combined local authorities. double what America spends and six times what Japan The project board is chaired by one of the chief executives spends. In every year up to 2017-18, we will be spending and includes Jobcentre Plus, NHS England, the local more on disability benefits than in 2009-10. drug and alcohol team, mental health trusts, colleges Let me explain what has happened over the last few and adult education services. Protocols have been drawn years. No one would know this from listening to today’s up setting up how participants in that programme will debate, but there are now nearly 3 million disabled be served with health and housing interventions. The people in work, which is up 116,000 this year. Access to funding model is different, with some up-front payments, Work is helping more people—5,000 more than in not just job outcome payments. The contract requires 2011-12. An extra £15 million has been put into that that every client must be seen at least once per fortnight. programme. Attainment levels for pupils with special We need those minimum standards. We have heard a lot educational needs have increased since 2010-11 at both from those participating in the Work programme, some GCSE and A-level. The number of disabled students of whom have received just an occasional phone call from gaining their first degree has increased from nearly their provider. We need the NHS to be part of the 32,000 to nearly 40,000 now. We have also reduced the programme as well. That is the way forward to do a proportion of disabled people in relative income poverty. much better job. These are the things that are happening. Social participation We cannot afford to continue wasting the potential of has increased. Sports participation has increased. Those so many disabled people—to continue to tell disabled are the facts that we need to set out. people by our actions that they are not “worth” it, as We have heard various Members of the House deliver the Minister did so shockingly with his words. We need some powerful speeches today. Let me turn first to my to value disabled people—to enable them to make a hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and contribution, as so many could and, as we have heard in Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who said, “I want to look this debate, wish to. The employment gap between disabled past labels; I want to make the world a better place. Isn’t people and others is no longer falling. We need to that why most of us came into this House?” I believe change policies to start bringing it down again. That is that is true. He talked about the work he has done on worth doing. We need to learn lessons from all the other disability hate crime. When I was the Minister for OECD countries that have a higher employment rate disabled people, I visited the work he was doing providing than we do among disabled people. It needs a change of safe places for people to come forward and explain what approach; it needs Ministers who respect disabled people; was happening to them. He has played a key and crucial and I am afraid it also needs a change of Government. part in the journey towards people feeling able to come forward and talk about the issue. 4pm Many Members asked why we, in the epicentre of The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): I want democracy and the home of free speech, should not be first to congratulate the hon. Member for Heywood and able to talk about the matters that really concern the Middleton (Liz McInnes) on her maiden speech. It was public. Should we not be able to tackle them head-on, 233 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 234 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform without shying away from some of the difficult issues? 1,100 companies are involved. That conversation has Was that not what Lord Freud was trying to do? My partly led to 116,000 more disabled people getting into hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) work this year. said that most clearly, as did my hon. Friends the As for media coverage, we all agree that it is totally Members for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) and wrong to stereotype people or depict them in a negative for Ipswich (Ben Gummer). way. That is why I was pleased to arrange a round table I want to move on to something that I hoped today’s and to secure a motion for moving forward with some debate would touch on, but it did not. I am going to of the main players in the media to make sure that they read out what a mum, Candice Baxter from Grimsby, employed more disabled people—not just in front of said. It would have been better if more time had been screen, but behind screen. They are now creating the devoted today to listening to what some people who programmes and the words said and moving forward so heard Lord Freud’s words had to say about them. She that everybody is portrayed in the best possible light. said: We have to reject the motion, because it is absolutely “My daughter’s ambition is to get a job in an office. She has wrong, although many Government Members suggested Down’s syndrome. She thinks that, if she works hard, someone, that it would be best for us not to vote on it, and for the somewhere will give her a job. At £6.50 an hour, it’s never going to Opposition to remove it. We have every confidence in happen.” Lord Freud, who has done so much—working for both Maybe at something else, it could. She continued: this Government and the Labour Government—to advance “The minimum wage protects from unscrupulous employers. the status and the job outcomes of disabled people. But for my child, it is a barrier to meaningful employment. Indeed, because of the minimum wage, she is destined for a life of Question put. short-lived, voluntary non-jobs”. The House divided: Ayes 243, Noes 302. This is the mother of a disabled child, and she wanted Division No. 64] [4.10 pm this issue debated here today, but we never debated it. What we did was just talk about what Lord Freud said. AYES This demonstrates what parents of disabled people wanted the debate to be about. The hon. Member for Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, Rosie Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), who should have Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, rh Yvette Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Corbyn, Jeremy talked about that, did not do so. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Crausby, Mr David Alexander, Heidi Creagh, Mary Kate Green rose— Ali, Rushanara Creasy, Stella Allen, Mr Graham Cruddas, Jon Esther McVey: I will not give way. I have listened to Anderson, Mr David Cryer, John points raised for several hours, and many of them were Ashworth, Jonathan Cunningham, Alex wrong, particularly those about the Work programme Austin, Ian Cunningham, Mr Jim and how we are helping disabled people through it. Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Sir Tony Over 60,000 people have got a job from the Work Bain, Mr William Curran, Margaret programme, which is now on track to deliver a 17% Balls, rh Ed Danczuk, Simon higher performance than Pathways to Work. That means Banks, Gordon Darling, rh Mr Alistair it is supporting an additional 7,000 people back into Barron, rh Kevin David, Wayne work. Furthermore, the Work programme is helping Bayley, Hugh Davidson, Mr Ian more people than any previous employment programme Beckett, rh Margaret Davies, Geraint did, which I think needs to be put on the record. Begg, Dame Anne De Piero, Gloria Benn, rh Hilary Dobson, rh Frank When we talked about Remploy and the staff who Berger, Luciana Docherty, Thomas used to work there, a couple of points made by the right Betts, Mr Clive Donohoe, Mr Brian H. hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) were wrong. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Doran, Mr Frank In fact, 80% of former employees have now found jobs Blenkinsop, Tom Doughty, Stephen or are receiving specialist tailored employment and Blomfield, Paul Dowd, Jim support to help them find one. These are the sort of Blunkett, rh Mr David Doyle, Gemma things we are doing to help disabled people, as well as Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack helping an extra 116,000 people into work in the last Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael year. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Ms Angela When we talk about positive initiatives moving forward, Buck, Ms Karen Edwards, Jonathan I was delighted to be part of the Government who Burden, Richard Efford, Clive introduced Disability Confident, which was about moving Burnham, rh Andy Elliott, Julie forward and working with employers. How do we best Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellman, Mrs Louise engage with employers? It is about having a conversation Campbell, rh Mr Alan Engel, Natascha with and listening to them, but it is equally for them to Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill understand—this is where we started the conversation Caton, Martin Evans, Chris with employers—that the disability pound is worth Champion, Sarah Farrelly, Paul £80 billion a year. It makes sense for employers to get Chapman, Jenny Fitzpatrick, Jim involved with the disability movement and employ more Clark, Katy Flint, rh Caroline disabled people. When they looked at the issue in a Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flynn, Paul logical way and thought about who were the people Clwyd, rh Ann Francis, Dr Hywel shopping in their stores and listening to the things they Coaker, Vernon Gapes, Mike were saying, they realised that they should get on board Coffey, Ann Gilmore, Sheila with Disability Confident. I am pleased to say that Connarty, Michael Glass, Pat 235 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 236 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Glindon, Mrs Mary McKinnell, Catherine Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John Godsiff, Mr Roger Meacher, rh Mr Michael Williams, Hywel Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Goodman, Helen Meale, Sir Alan Williamson, Chris Wright, David Greatrex, Tom Mearns, Ian Wilson, Sammy Wright, Mr Iain Green, Kate Miliband, rh Edward Winnick, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Miller, Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Tellers for the Ayes: Griffith, Nia Mitchell, Austin Wishart, Pete Nic Dakin and Gwynne, Andrew Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wood, Mike Phil Wilson Hain, rh Mr Peter Morden, Jessica Hamilton, Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) NOES Hamilton, Fabian Morris, Grahame M. Hanson, rh Mr David (Easington) Afriyie, Adam Colvile, Oliver Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mudie, Mr George Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Mr Jim Amess, Mr David Crabb, rh Stephen Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Paul Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Healey, rh John Murray, Ian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, David T. C. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nandy, Lisa Bacon, Mr Richard (Monmouth) Hermon, Lady Nash, Pamela Baker, rh Norman Davies, Glyn Heyes, David O’Donnell, Fiona Baker, Steve Davies, Philip Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi Baldry, rh Sir Tony Davis, rh Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Barker, rh Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Baron, Mr John Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Barwell, Gavin Doyle-Price, Jackie Hosie, Stewart Powell, Lucy Bebb, Guto Drax, Richard Howarth, rh Mr George Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan, rh Sir Alan Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Bellingham, Mr Henry Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Steve Benyon, Richard Dunne, Mr Philip James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Emma Beresford, Sir Paul Ellis, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Jonathan Berry, Jake Ellison, Jane Jarvis, Dan Riordan, Mrs Linda Bingham, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Graham Ritchie, Ms Margaret Binley, Mr Brian Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Helen Robertson, Angus Blackman, Bob Eustice, George Jones, Mr Kevan Robertson, John Blunt, Crispin Evans, Graham Jones, Susan Elan Rotheram, Steve Boles, Nick Evans, Jonathan Kane, Mike Roy, Mr Frank Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Mr Nigel Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Roy, Lindsay Bottomley, Sir Peter Evennett, Mr David Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael Kendall, Liz Sarwar, Anas Brake, rh Tom Farron, Tim Khan, rh Sadiq Sawford, Andy Bray, Angie Field, Mark Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Brazier, Mr Julian Foster, rh Mr Don Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Brine, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sheridan, Jim Brooke, rh Annette Freer, Mike Lewis, Mr Ivan Shuker, Gavin Browne, Mr Jeremy Fullbrook, Lorraine Love, Mr Andrew Simpson, David Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Lucas, Caroline Skinner, Mr Dennis Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gale, Sir Roger Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Sir Edward MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Angela Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Nick Burns, Conor George, Andrew Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Owen Burns, rh Mr Simon Gibb, Mr Nick Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh Mr John Burrowes, Mr David Gilbert, Stephen Malhotra, Seema Straw, rh Mr Jack Burstow, rh Paul Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mann, John Stringer, Graham Burt, rh Alistair Glen, John Marsden, Mr Gordon Stuart, Ms Gisela Burt, Lorely Goldsmith, Zac McCabe, Steve Tami, Mark Byles, Dan Goodwill, Mr Robert McCann, Mr Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth Cable, rh Vince Gove, rh Michael McCarthy, Kerry Thornberry, Emily Cairns, Alun Graham, Richard McClymont, Gregg Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grant, Mrs Helen McCrea, Dr William Trickett, Jon Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James McDonagh, Siobhain Turner, Karl Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris McDonald, Andy Twigg, Derek Cash, Sir William Green, rh Damian McDonnell, John Twigg, Stephen Chishti, Rehman Greening, rh Justine McFadden, rh Mr Pat Umunna, Mr Chuka Chope, Mr Christopher Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McGovern, Alison Vaz, rh Keith Clappison, Mr James Griffiths, Andrew McGovern, Jim Vaz, Valerie Clark, rh Greg Gummer, Ben McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Walley, Joan Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gyimah, Mr Sam McInnes, Liz Watts, Mr Dave Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hague, rh Mr William McKechin, Ann Weir, Mr Mike Coffey, Dr Thérèse Halfon, Robert McKenzie, Mr Iain Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Collins, Damian Hames, Duncan 237 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 28 OCTOBER 2014 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 238 State for Welfare Reform State for Welfare Reform Hammond, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Penrose, John Stride, Mel Hancock, rh Matthew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Percy, Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Hancock, Mr Mike Lewis, Brandon Perry, Claire Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Hands, rh Greg Lewis, Dr Julian Phillips, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Harper, Mr Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swales, Ian Harrington, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Pincher, Christopher Swinson, Jo Harris, Rebecca Lloyd, Stephen Poulter, Dr Daniel Syms, Mr Robert Hart, Simon Loughton, Tim Prisk, Mr Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Luff, Sir Peter Pritchard, Mark Thornton, Mike Hayes, rh Mr John Lumley, Karen Pugh, John Thurso, rh John Heald, Sir Oliver Macleod, Mary Raab, Mr Dominic Timpson, Mr Edward Heath, Mr David Main, Mrs Anne Randall, rh Sir John Tredinnick, David Heaton-Harris, Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Redwood, rh Mr John Truss, rh Elizabeth Hemming, John Maynard, Paul Rees-Mogg, Jacob Turner, Mr Andrew Henderson, Gordon McCartney, Jason Reevell, Simon Tyrie, Mr Andrew Hendry, Charles McIntosh, Miss Anne Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Uppal, Paul Hinds, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Robertson, rh Sir Vara, Mr Shailesh Hollingbery, George McPartland, Stephen Hugh Vickers, Martin Hollobone, Mr Philip McVey, rh Esther Robertson, Mr Laurence Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Holloway, Mr Adam Metcalfe, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Hopkins, Kris Mills, Nigel Russell, Sir Bob Walker, Mr Robin Horwood, Martin Milton, Anne Rutley, David Walter, Mr Robert Howarth, Sir Gerald Moore, rh Michael Sanders, Mr Adrian Ward, Mr David Howell, John Mordaunt, Penny Sandys, Laura Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morgan, rh Nicky Scott, Mr Lee Watkinson, Dame Angela Hunter, Mark Morris, Anne Marie Selous, Andrew Webb, rh Steve Jackson, Mr Stewart Morris, David Shapps, rh Grant Wharton, James James, Margot Morris, James Sharma, Alok Wheeler, Heather Javid, rh Sajid Mosley, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec White, Chris Jenkin, Mr Bernard Mowat, David Shepherd, Sir Richard Whittaker, Craig Jenrick, Robert Mulholland, Greg Simmonds, Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Johnson, Joseph Mundell, rh David Simpson, Mr Keith Wiggin, Bill Jones, Andrew Murray, Sheryll Skidmore, Chris Willetts, rh Mr David Jones, rh Mr David Neill, Robert Smith, Chloe Williams, Mr Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Newton, Sarah Smith, Henry Williams, Roger Kawczynski, Daniel Nokes, Caroline Smith, Julian Williamson, Gavin Kelly, Chris Norman, Jesse Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Kirby, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Soubry, Anna Wollaston, Dr Sarah Knight, rh Sir Greg O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Wright, rh Jeremy Kwarteng, Kwasi Offord, Dr Matthew Stanley, rh Sir Wright, Simon Lamb, rh Norman Opperman, Guy John Young, rh Sir George Lancaster, Mark Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Stephenson, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Paice, rh Sir James Stewart, Bob Latham, Pauline Parish, Neil Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Noes: Laws, rh Mr David Patel, Priti Stewart, Rory Mr Ben Wallace and Lee, Jessica Paterson, rh Mr Owen Streeter, Mr Gary Jenny Willott Leech, Mr John Pawsey, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Penning, rh Mike Question accordingly negatived. 239 28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 240

Coalfield Communities Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Let me explain to the hon. Gentleman what happened in the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): ‘60s. The then Government closed all the small inland Before I call Michael Dugher to move the motion, may pits and made the super-pits on the coast, and all the I say to both the Front-Bench teams in this debate, and men working at the little pits went to work in the to other Members in the Chamber, that more than super-pits. 21 Members have already notified the Speaker that they Michael Dugher: Of course my hon. Friend is absolutely wish to participate in it? May I ask the Front Benchers right about that. The truth is that 43% of mining jobs to bear that in mind in terms of the length of their did go in the 1960s as part of that consolidation, which speeches and the interventions they take? May I also was agreed by the National Coal Board and the unions remind the House that precedence will be given to those ahead of Harold Wilson’s new plan for coal, which of Members who have already indicated that they wish to course the Tories immediately cancelled. There is absolutely speak in the debate and that it will finish at 7 pm? no comparison between the consolidation we saw in the 4.26 pm immediate aftermath of the second world war and the complete destruction and decimation of the coal industry Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): I beg to move, that we saw in the ‘80s and ‘90s. That this House acknowledges the economic legacy of the pit closure programme in coalfield communities across the United One of the Cabinet documents was a record of a Kingdom; notes that the recent release of the relevant 1984 meeting the then Prime Minister held in Downing street Cabinet papers showed that the Government at the time misled on 15 September 1983. It states absolutely clearly that the public about the extent of its pit closure plans and sought to Mr MacGregor, the chairman of the NCB, influence police tactics; recognises the regeneration of former “had it in mind over the three years 1983-85 that a further 75 pits coalfield areas over the last fifteen years, the good work of would be closed”. organisations such as the Coalfield Regeneration Trust, and the largest industrial injury settlement in legal history secured by the The final paragraph of the document reads: previous Government for former miners suffering from bronchitis “It was agreed that no record of this meeting should be and emphysema; further recognises the ongoing problems highlighted circulated.” recently by the report produced by Sheffield Hallam University on The State of the Coalfields, which revealed that there are still What a surprise. significant problems for the majority of Britain’s coalfield communities, We know that significant pressure was placed on the such as fewer jobs, lower business formation rates, higher Home Secretary to step up police measures against unemployment rates, more people with serious health issues, striking miners to escalate the dispute, which again is higher numbers in receipt of welfare benefits and a struggling something that is denied. Released documents from 14 voluntary and community sector; and therefore calls for the March 1984 show that Ministers at the time pressured continued regeneration and much needed support for coalfield communities as part of a wider programme to boost growth in the Home Secretary to ensure that chief constables Britain’s regions. adopted After 30 years under lock and key, the Cabinet papers “a more vigorous interpretation of their duties.” and the Prime Minister’s private office correspondence, At the time, it was claimed that the police were acting recently released under the 30-year rule, about the 1984 entirely on their own constitutional independence—what miners strike have exposed one of the darkest chapters a joke. in our history. Contrary to denial after denial from Earlier this year, the National Union of Mineworkers, Conservative Ministers at the time and from the National led by the excellent General Secretary Chris Kitchen, Coal Board, the Cabinet papers show that the Government produced an impressive report, drafted by Mr Nicky of the day did have a secret plan from as early as Stubbs, following months of forensic analysis of the September 1983 to close 75 pits, run down capacity by recently released Cabinet papers. The report has brought 25 million tonnes and make 65,000 men redundant. even more disturbing details to light. It shows that Many people warned at the time that there was a secret Ministers were even prepared to override normal judicial plan, but it is no less shocking to see, in black and white, processes, and ensure that local magistrate courts dealt in official Cabinet papers, just how much the public with cases arising from the dispute in a much quicker were misled. fashion. It also outlines how Ministers conspired to Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): cover up the extent of their plans for the mining industry. Will the hon. Gentleman apologise now to the British There are numerous quotations contained in the Cabinet people for making out the Thatcher Government were papers. For example, one said: the major closer of mines and the cause of lost jobs, “No other papers should be circulated for that meeting…and given that the Labour Government in the ‘60s and ‘70s that discussion of coal strategy at the meeting should be avoided”. closed 129 more mines than the Thatcher Government It also asked and caused the loss of more than 30,000 excess jobs? “how to arrange these meetings so that as little as possible of the Apologise now. more sensitive aspects”— Michael Dugher: That is pretty desperate stuff, at an that will be the pit closure programme— early stage of the debate. “is committed to paper.” Mr Stuart: It is true. In addition, it was decided that instead of plans being written down, Ministers would give “a short oral briefing”. Michael Dugher: If the hon. Gentleman wants to I am sure they did. Possibly the most shocking revelation come to Barnsley and across South Yorkshire—across from the Cabinet papers was that the Conservative the coalfields—and say that Labour closed all the pits, I Government of the day were willing to go so far as to say good luck with that. He is even more out of touch declare a state of emergency and to deploy the Army than we thought. against the miners to gain victory during the strike. 241 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 242

It is extraordinary to think that, all these years later, a Michael Dugher: I completely agree. Should the NUM British Government would seriously consider deploying have had a ballot? Yes, it should. Would it have won a British armed forces against their own people—ordinary, ballot? Yes, it certainly would have done. Let there be hard-working, decent, law-abiding, tax-paying, patriotic no mistake about that. men who were guilty of nothing more than legally withdrawing their labour to defend their livelihood and Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): to defend an industry that brought such great wealth to Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the country. Michael Dugher: I am not giving way because it will Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): Is not this be totally pointless. Many Opposition Members wish to one of the most desperate motions to come forward speak. Government Members might be rattling around from the official Opposition? I am talking about attacking a little, but there are many on the Opposition Benches a Prime Minister who is 18 months dead and cannot who wish to speak, so I will make some progress. defend herself. Is it not the case that this motion is not The Cabinet papers demonstrate clearly that about the events of 30 years ago, but about trying to Mrs Thatcher’s aim was to defeat the miners and destroy unite the Labour party around the desperate leadership the industry that employed them. Tory Ministers from of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward that time have not learned a thing. The noble Lord Miliband)? Tebbit recently likened the miners strike to the Falklands war. Lord Tebbit actually compared the miners strike to Michael Dugher: What is desperate is the hon. the military invasion of sovereign British territory by a Gentleman’s intervention. Look at the wording of the foreign enemy. What a modern day insight into the motion. Around 5.5 million people live in the former mentality of Conservative Ministers in the 1980s. coalfields. The anger about what happened in the 1980s still exists today. It just shows how completely out of Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? touch the Government are. Michael Dugher: I am not giving way. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): My hon. Friend will also know that, in the 1960s, the Labour Earlier this year, Labour launched our Justice for the Government had a plan which included not only moving Coalfields campaign. This is about ensuring that we people to bigger pits but bringing industry into the have proper transparency, properly acknowledging what coalfields of North Durham. That did not happen. happened in the past and getting to the truth. Without That was vindictive; it closed down communities, and the truth there can be no justice and without justice communities such as mine are still suffering today. there can be no reconciliation. The first step is for the House to acknowledge what the 1984 Cabinet papers spell out. Just like Saville and Hillsborough, we must Michael Dugher: As always, my hon. Friend brings to face up to the failures of the past. We must acknowledge this place insight from his own constituency.Fundamentally, the truth and we must learn from what happened. The the Cabinet papers also show the true scale of the motion today provides that opportunity and I hope that dishonesty in maintaining that the strike was about an all hon. Members will take it. industrial dispute based on economics, and it puts paid to the nonsense assertion at the time that Ministers The Opposition have been clear that given that the were somehow neutral bystanders. The fact is that the Cabinet papers show that the public were misled about Government of the day saw the strike in political terms. the plans for pit closures, there should be a formal Far from Ministers being non-interventionist, they were apology for the Government’s actions during the strike. in fact the micro-managers of this dispute. As for the revelations in the Cabinet papers, which show that the Government did try to influence police tactics, One paper from a Downing street meeting shows that all the details of the interactions and communications Mrs Thatcher told Ferdinand Mount, a senior policy between the Government and the police at the time of adviser, that her Government should the strike should now be published. “neglect no opportunity to erode trade union membership.” Thirty years on, we still need a proper investigation In a paper prepared for Mrs Thatcher by the Downing into what happened at Orgreave. It was welcome that South street head of policy, the now right hon. Member for Yorkshire police referred themselves to the Independent Wokingham (Mr Redwood), it was said that miners had Police Complaints Commission, but we are still no a “revolutionary”strategy, and it urged the Prime Minister closer to an investigation. There are serious allegations to return to her original plan of that police officers assaulted miners at Orgreave, and “encouraging a war of attrition” then committed perjury and misconduct in public office against the miners. That completely reinforces the view and perverted the course of justice in the subsequent at the time that the Government of the day regarded the prosecution of 95 miners on riot charges, all of which striking miners as—to use that most infamous of phrases— collapsed in court. What happened at Orgreave was not “the enemy within.” just a black day for South Yorkshire, it was a black day for this country. It is indefensible and completely shameful Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I hope that the that there is still no investigation and the whole truth shadow Minister will recognise that one of the fundamentals has yet to come out. of trade unionism is that the union is there to represent its members, that it has a ballot and that it acts upon the Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): My hon. Friend result of that ballot. One of the fundamental flaws in is right to mention Orgreave, but it was not the only the NUM strategy was that it did not have a ballot, place. In Mansfield, exactly the same thing happened which divided the work force. when at the end of a peaceful demonstration police 243 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 244

[Mr David Anderson] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Order. I am fed up with hearing the Whip, the Chair of stormed into the crowds that were left, 45 people were the Education Committee and a Minister heckling locked up and were banned from picketing and that constantly in this debate. We are pressed for time so—this case fell apart. Up and down this country, the police goes for both sides—can we please listen to the debate rampaged through villages where people had a history and to the arguments being made, rather than shouting of being peaceful, and men were locked up who should across the Chamber, which is what has been going on never have been locked up because they were deliberately so far? attacked by police who were not even from that part of the world. Michael Dugher: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will repeat my invitation to the hon. Gentleman: he is Michael Dugher: My hon. Friend makes a powerful welcome to come with me to Grimethorpe any time he point, born, I know, of his close personal experience. chooses—I can guarantee him an interesting welcome—and That is why we have said that we can see from the share some of his views on the strike and the pit Cabinet papers that there clearly was pressure to influence closures programme. It would certainly be an interesting police tactics. We have said, “Why do not the Government meeting. just come clean and publish all the communications between Ministers and the police at the time and clear all of this up once and for all?” Andrew Bridgen rose— What happened at Orgreave was a black day. It is indefensible that there is still no investigation, and Michael Dugher: I am absolutely not giving way, and frankly, the IPCC needs to get its act together. Opposition that is the last time I will say that to the hon. Gentleman. Members have said that if the Government cannot or I can think of nothing that he could bring to these will not undertake a proper investigation, they should proceedings. consider initiating a swift, independent review, along Within a year of its pit closing, Grimethorpe—the the lines of the Ellison review. setting for the village of Grimley in the classic film As I have mentioned, the Thatcher Government’s “Brassed Off”—was officially listed by the EU as the policy chief at the time was the right hon. Member for poorest village in England, and among the most hard Wokingham. In his tribute to Lady Thatcher in the up in the whole of Europe. Crime increased from 30% House last April, he argued that all the Government below the national average to 20% above it. The 1981 had tried to do in the 1980s was modernise the industry. census recorded 44% of Grimethorpe’s population working But the industry was not modernised or consolidated; it as miners. After the pit closed, unemployment was was completely decimated. What we saw was a systematic above 50% for almost the entire 1990s. attempt to destroy an entire industry and an entire way Of course, all that precipitated rocketing spending on of life. social security benefits in the years after. Despite all the What is the legacy of that? Today only three deep-pit myths, the truth is that welfare dependency was central coal mines remain open in the UK, out of the 170 in to Mrs Thatcher’s legacy in Britain. Even today, we are operation in 1984. Coal production is falling. It fell by still dealing with first, second and third-generation 25% between 2012 and 2013, to an all-time low of 13 unemployment. Some miners became self-employed. million tonnes. The future of Thoresby and Kellingley Others eventually got jobs, although usually far less coal mines has now been in limbo for many months, rewarding, far less secure and far less well paid. Others which raises further concerns about energy security. We simply moved away. Many never worked again. urgently need clarity from the Government on whether they plan to provide state aid. Of course, there have been many improvements in recent years, thanks to regeneration funding from Europe, the efforts of many good local authorities and 13 years Andrew Bridgen rose— of regeneration and investment under the previous Labour Government. Over a 10-year period, from 2000 to 2010, Michael Dugher: The hon. Gentleman can jump up the Government invested £1.5 billion in initiatives to and down to his heart’s content, but I have already support coalfield communities. The Coalfields Regeneration made it quite clear that I will not give way. Trust is a great example of the good work that has been done. It has invested over £260 million over the past Following the strike, many coalfield communities 15 years in projects that have made a positive difference were knocked to their knees, and they have been struggling to the lives of people in coalfield communities. The to get back up ever since. When the pits closed, a whole current Government have rightly continued to support way of life disappeared virtually overnight. It is impossible the CRT, which delivers great services that help people to over-estimate the trauma that caused. The entire gain new skills, achieve qualifications, find work, set up economic system that supported those pit villages, and and grow new businesses and become more active in most of the social infrastructure, was gone. After their their communities. I pay tribute to people at the CRT, so-called victory over the miners was secured, the particularly Mr Peter McNestry, its chair, and Mick Government simply walked way, with no transition Clapham, one of my predecessors in this place and a plan in place and nothing for the people in the communities brilliant lifelong champion of people in the coalfields. they had destroyed. [Interruption.] Just take the example of Grimethorpe in my constituency—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): The CRT is still at it. He can come to Grimethorpe any day of the has done a tremendous amount of work. Was my hon. week if he likes— Friend as disappointed as I was when the issue was 245 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 246 devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh communities. Of course, we cannot undo the damage Assembly and the first thing they did was to cut the that was done, but we can shine a light on what happened, money? and we can promise to provide the necessary support still needed in coalfield communities up and down the Michael Dugher: My hon. Friend makes an extremely country. powerful point. I hope that people in Scotland are We should not forget what a massive contribution the listening to this debate and understand the enormous coalfields made to our country. The communities that contribution that the CRT has made across the whole sprang up in the large pit villages and towns helped to country. sustain an industry that powered an industrial revolution A lot more needs to be done. A recent report by which brought tremendous wealth to this country. Even Sheffield Hallam university on the state of the coalfields by the mid-1980s, nearly 200,000 people were still employed showed that there are still significant economic and in mining jobs, making a massive contribution to the social problems for the majority of coalfield communities. country. Nor should we forget that many miners lost It states that since 2010 many voluntary community their lives, were badly injured while doing their job, or organisations in coalfield areas have been driven into suffered debilitating illnesses later in life. That is why crisis. Problems in coalfield communities include fewer the previous Government secured a compensation jobs, higher unemployment rates, more people with settlement for former miners suffering from crippling serious health issues, and greater numbers of people in bronchitis and emphysema—the largest industrial injury receipt of welfare benefits. payout in legal history. The sacrifices made by those who worked in the Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): industry came home to me very recently when I visited Does my hon. Friend agree that Conservative Members the national mining memorial at Senghenydd with my have no idea whatsoever of the devastation they inflicted hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David). on these communities? They are doing it again, because That was the site of the worst mining disaster in Britain, they are cutting funds to local government, which means where, 101 years ago almost to the day, 439 miners—men that the services that are very much needed in these and boys—together with one rescuer, were killed. This communities cannot be provided, and people are not followed the previous worst ever disaster nearly 50 years getting work either. before in Barnsley, when 361 miners and 27 rescuers died in 1866 in two separate explosions at the Oaks pit Michael Dugher: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. near Stairfoot in my constituency. It is right that we Let me take the example of my own borough. A properly honour all those who died. report published in April 2014 by Barnsley council on I think today about the immeasurable contribution jobs and business growth concluded that for all the that so many people made in the coal industry. There progress made in recent years, Barnsley will need once was a time when the Labour Benches would have 45,000 new jobs to reach the average employment density been full of ex-colliery workers; today there are but a for the country. It is clear that continued support is vital distinguished few, yet they continue to bring great wisdom for all the 5.5 million people in Britain who live in and an invaluable insight to the House of Commons. former mining areas. By supporting this motion, we can I think today of my own constituents, many of whom send a clear message to them that we understand this worked in the pits, and I think about members of my and will give them the support they need. own family, too. Frank Oleisky was a miner at the Yorkshire Main colliery who died in 1954 aged 47, not Andrew Bridgen rose— much older than I am today. He left a wife and six children. One of his sons went to work at the pit and Michael Dugher: I am definitely not giving way to the was on strike in 1984. One of his daughters is my hon. Gentleman. If he wants to speak in the debate, he grandmother and she is watching this debate today. may be a fairly lonely voice on his Benches, but perhaps As a country, we cannot do enough to mark the huge he could listen to the numerous Labour Members who contribution and sacrifice made by those who worked will speak, which would certainly do him a power of in the coal industry for so many decades, but we have a good. chance today to ensure a brighter future and justice for Those of us who lived through and grew up during the coalfields. It will come too late—far too late—for the miners strike still feel a strong sense of injustice. many of the former miners and their families who lived That is certainly true for very many of my constituents through the strike and the pit closure programme that in Barnsley in south Yorkshire. At the time of the strike, followed. However, after the truth was so brutally exposed I was a boy living by the Yorkshire Main colliery in in the recently released official Cabinet Papers from Edlington, then a pit village outside Doncaster. Members 1984, we owe it to them and to the people who live in of my own family helped to sink that pit more than the coalfields toady to see that justice for the coalfields 100 years ago. In 1984, I had family and friends on is finally granted. strike. I remember, as a boy, proudly marching with miners from the Yorkshire Main on the day they went 4.51 pm back to work in 1985. Like so many hon. Members far more closely involved than I was, I saw at first hand the The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew impact the strike had, and, in particular, the impact of Hancock): It is undoubtedly true that the history of the pit closure programme. That sense of injustice endures Britain’s coal mining communities is a long and proud today because of the failure to hold those in power to one and tied inescapably to the long history of this account, and because of the scars that still remain on island. From the early mines to the mass expansion of the memories and on the landscapes of so many coalfield the industrial revolution to the post-war decline of deep 247 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 248

[Matthew Hancock] David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): The Minister is right. On 4 December, Labour Members were whipped coal mining, the fortunes of the communities and of to vote for the accelerated closure of the UK coal coal were heavily intertwined. At its height, almost industry. I have checked the list of those who so voted, 3,000 collieries produced about 300 million tonnes of and one of them was the hon. Member for Barnsley coal, and each colliery was surrounded by a close-knit East (Michael Dugher). We are talking about looking community. forward, but on Lords amendment 105 the hon. Gentleman voted for the accelerated closure of the coal industry. Mr Spencer: Did the Minister notice that the shadow You couldn’t make it up. Minister, the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), spent 24 minutes looking backwards and one Matthew Hancock: The inconsistency between how minute looking forwards? Does the Minister intend to the shadow Minister voted and what he has said today use his speech to look forward at how we can help is evident for everybody to see. Labour Members voted improve coalfields and work together in this Chamber for the faster-than-planned closure of coal-fired power to improve the plight of the communities that live stations, and having had 13 years in power to do all the there? things they are asking for, all they can do today is to complain about what happened in the 1980s. Matthew Hancock: I welcome my hon. Friend’s tone. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Now that we It was a pity and a surprise to hear the shadow Minister are down to the last three working pits—Kellingley, say he could think of nothing that Conservative Members Thoresby and Hatfield—will the Minister take this could bring to this debate. That was deeply regrettable. opportunity to make the clear statement of intent that he will do everything possible to prevent the closure of Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): The hon. Member those collieries by December 2015? for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) makes a good point about looking forward, but do not a Tory Minister’s recent Matthew Hancock: I have already worked hard to comments on the value of disabled people and the make sure that we get the funding necessary. I am Tories’ desire to make this country a tax haven for the grateful to the NUM for the work that it has done to rich show that they are still the same vindictive party support one of the three collieries financially. I have that closed the pits in the ’80s? been determined that this is done on a commercial basis to keep the option of further support open. I and Matthew Hancock: No, they do not. I think the hon. officials in the Department for Business, Innovation Gentleman is about three hours late for the previous and Skills are now working with the company to prepare debate. During my time in this role, I have secured the a case that might go before the European Union on future of the existing pits, two of them in particular. I exactly that point. have personally worked with the Union of Democratic Mineworkers, the National Union of Mineworkers and Mr Graham Stuart: My right hon. Friend will have the owners of those pits to make sure they have the noticed that the shadow Minister said that coal mining financing necessary to stay open. communities would struggle to accept the fact that I will take no lectures from the Labour party, because Labour Governments between 1964 and 1979 shut I am from Nottinghamshire coal mining stock. The 283 mines, with the loss of 223,000 jobs—more than hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher) spoke were closed under the Conservatives. The fact that those of his grandmother. My grandmother is also watching. communities would struggle to accept that is because of She is 100 years old and was born in Bestwood in misinformation and the use of this subject for political Nottinghamshire. They were a family of miners and all benefit, rather than to share the truth. The shadow her brothers went down the pit. Minister should go out and tell people in coal mining communities the facts about Labour’s record then and, Following on from the point made by my hon. Friend as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), I want to (David Mowat) has just said, now. concentrate on the future, but the Labour party seem interested only in talking about the past. Matthew Hancock: Quite so. My hon. Friend anticipates the next facts in my speech. In 1947, 958 collieries were Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Looking in production, and 20 years later that number had fallen to the future, particularly that of the coal-fired Lynemouth to 483. The shadow Minister said that on Labour’s power station in my constituency, will the Minister watch there was a consolidation, whereas in the 1980s assist my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for there were closures. However, between 1964 and 1970, Energy and Climate Change in his efforts to ensure that under Harold Wilson’s Labour Government, 252 pits we get European state aid approval for the conversion closed and more than 200,000 jobs in coal production to biomass of the Lynemouth power station? were lost. Matthew Hancock: Ensuring that we have a broad Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) mix of energy supplies is of course a topical issue. We (PC): I want to take the Minister back to looking are working on the future of conversion to biomass. forward. Such was the impact of the pit closures that That relates to a slightly broader point: Labour Members the communities I represent in south Wales are now the voted for an acceleration of the closure of our coal-fired poorest parts of northern Europe and qualify for the power stations, yet another group of them have turned highest levels of regional aid. Will he inform the House up today to argue that we should do more to support and those communities why his Government’s policy is the coal mining industry. Those positions are completely to repatriate regional policy, depriving south Wales of inconsistent. billions of pounds of investment? 249 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 250

Matthew Hancock: Having strong local policy is of the dispute. May I reassure my right hon. Friend that course very important to ensuring not only that we when I advised the then Prime Minister that the Army support mining activity where we can within the EU should on no account be involved in the dispute, she state aid rules, but crucially that we support the communities said, “Of course it won’t be” ? And it was not. around pits. That is our policy. I will get on to the future, but I keep being asked about the past. Matthew Hancock: The fact is that the Army was not used in the dispute. None the less, the dispute was a Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab) rose— serious consideration in respect of energy security in this country, so it is no wonder that the questions about Matthew Hancock: Talking of which. how to deal with it were broad, especially given the political nature of those attacking the Government. Mr Skinner: The right hon. Gentleman now has to That is entirely understandable. Nevertheless, the dispute face the prospect of deciding what he does about the was dealt with in a way that did not involve putting the three deep mines in Britain—Hatfield, Kellingley and Army on the streets. Thoresby. I have asked him several times during his short tenure in his current position to realise that it will Conor Burns: We heard a very partial version of cost money, but that if we had £70 million of state aid, events in the 1980s from the shadow Minister. Does my we could save those three pits right until they exhaust right hon. Friend agree that the greatest betrayal of their reserves. Set against the fact that in February the mine workers in this country was by Arthur Scargill, Tory Government took £700 million out of the who led his people into an illegal strike without a ballot, mineworkers’ pension scheme, we only want £70 million against the NUM’s own rules? of it to save these three pits. Instead of rabbiting on about who closed what, save these three. Matthew Hancock: Of course I agree with that. It would benefit the House if Members understood that Matthew Hancock: The irony is that I look forward to the process of becoming a modern economy, which was working with the hon. Gentleman to do what we can a difficult process, could have been achieved far better to do just that. He will know that the first thing that I through partnership than through adversarial means. did on taking this post was to ensure that Government Indeed, that spirit of partnership is what we have now funding was available on a commercial basis to tackle and it is starting to work. short-term cash shortages. We are now working on a It is a great pity that the motion focuses so heavily on proposition to go through the EU processes, which reliving the battles of the past. It is a demonstration of must, under the rules, come from the company. Whatever the Labour party at its worst—totally uninterested in heat and light there is around this issue, I am working the future. I want to talk about the future. on those schemes. However, it must be done within the constraints of the EU state aid rules. I would be happy Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Will the Minister to work with the hon. Gentleman to do what we can to give way? secure the future of the pits. Matthew Hancock: I will give way in a second and Andrew Bridgen: As a Member of this House who perhaps the hon. Gentleman will say whether he supports represents a coal mining community, the major conurbation what I am about to say. of which is called Coalville, and whose grandfather was Orgreave, which was the site of one of the biggest a coal miner, I am not surprised that the shadow Minister confrontations between miners and the police, is now did not want to take my intervention. I witnessed the home to Sheffield university’s advanced manufacturing intimidation of miners who wanted to work in south research centre. I have been there. That partnership Derbyshire, north-west Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire between businesses, universities and, no doubt, trade during the miners’ strike. I do not share the despondency unions shows the sort of approach that this country of the shadow Minister. The latest figures show that my could easily have taken to the difficult transition 30-odd constituency of North West Leicestershire has the highest years ago, but that was turned down through the political economic growth in the country at nearly 5% and that antics of Arthur Scargill and his friends. our unemployment rate is less than 2%. Wayne David: To deal with the present, is the Minister Matthew Hancock: I shall come on to how best to pleased that wage levels are plummeting in former coal support communities that used to have a large coal mining areas? mining presence. In Yorkshire, unemployment has fallen by 30% over the past four years, going by the claimant Matthew Hancock: We are doing everything we can count. That demonstrates that having a long-term economic to turn the economy around. The shadow Chancellor plan is the best way to help communities get through himself admitted that, after an economic calamity of these difficult times. the scale we saw, it is inevitable that people will be The transition of an economy that was dominated by affected. Of course they will be. Of course, when national outdated heavy industry into a modern service-based income falls—as happened in the great recession—that economy was necessary, and it has formed the basis of impacts on people; national income is only the sum of the nation’s current prosperity. That is not much disputed the incomes of people in that nation. Until the Labour these days. party understands that our economic fortunes as a nation are tied to our economic policy, and that the Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The Minister calamity of Labour’s economic policy led to a calamity is making an excellent speech. The shadow Minister for family incomes, it will never be trusted with the said that the Government considered using the Army in economy again. 251 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 252

Mr Ronnie Campbell: The Minister says it was a biggest coalfields, but when this Government switched partnership, but it was not much of a partnership when money from public services to capital, the north-east Lord Heseltine was at the Dispatch Box and closed got 0.3% of the money. Will the Minister admit that 31 pits, with jobs losses for 60,000 miners. That wasn’t a that is utterly disgraceful? very good partnership, was it? Matthew Hancock: Unemployment in the hon. Lady’s Matthew Hancock: Harold Wilson closed 252 pits, constituency has fallen by 30% since the election. Next with more than 200,000 jobs lost, so we can trade time she gets up she should mention that, rather than figures easily on that point. shouting across the Dispatch Box. In South Staffordshire, unemployment has fallen by 58% since 2010. It has Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am grateful to fallen by 51% in South Derbyshire, and as I said earlier, the Minister for allowing me to intervene, and I apologise by 30% in Yorkshire. That goes to show the central for taking him back a little. He referred to mining in truth that the best way to help coalfield communities Britain, but in Northern Ireland, in Coalisland in County now is to have a strong and healthy economy, and we Tyrone—the county in which I grew up—there was a cannot do that unless we have an economic plan. mine, and a number of miners were killed and their bodies were never recovered. Although there are national memorials elsewhere in the United Kingdom, I would Andrew Bridgen: Will the Minister also congratulate welcome the Minister’s commitment to look at some businesses in north-west Leicestershire around Coalville, sort of memorial to record the fact that we did have where unemployment has fallen by 60% since 2010? mining in Northern Ireland at that time. Matthew Hancock: I absolutely will. The long-term Matthew Hancock: I will absolutely look at that, and economic plan is clearly working for Coalville, as it is it is an opportunity to pay tribute to those miners who for South Staffordshire, Durham, Yorkshire and all were lost and to their families. Throughout the history over the country. [Interruption.] The more muttering I of mining it was always a dangerous occupation, and get from Opposition Members, the more I think we miners were lost in almost every community. We should should repeat the fact that unemployment is falling in pay tribute to those who died in that way. every region of the country.

Mr Anderson: The Minister is generous in giving way. Mr Graham Stuart: The fate of young people is The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) particularly important. Will the Minister share his dismay said he was convinced that the Army was not involved, that so many young people were unemployed throughout but some of us who were directly involved would dispute even the good years of the previous Labour Government? that on a personal level. The only way to get to the The welcome news recently has been record falls in bottom of the issue, and other points that have been youth unemployment. The dignity of work, the pleasure raised, is for the Minister to do the right thing and and the future it brings are what we should be celebrating release all the papers. Do not hide any more papers, as today. We should not listening to the party political the Shrewsbury 24 papers have been hidden; their campaign point scoring of the Labour party. is now 42 years old. Release all the papers, and a lot of the arguments we have might disappear. Matthew Hancock: I could not have put it better myself. As a Minister in this Government I am incredibly Matthew Hancock: The papers are being released as proud of the fact that youth unemployment is falling part of the 30-year rule, so that is happening under the sharply. It is happening throughout the country, whether normal process. Indeed, we would not be having this in the coalfields or in areas where there was no coal debate about the past had the Labour party not wanted mining, and that is because we have a long-term economic to spend more time looking through papers from the plan. The biggest risk to those young people who have mid-1980s than concentrating on how to fix the mess it jobs now, but did not have them four years ago, would created in this country. be a Labour Government. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The Minister lauded the advanced manufacturing centre in Sheffield, which Mr Kevan Jones: My figures are on page 23 of the was set up by a Labour Government, and asked why it Minister’s file, if he would like to look. He quotes was not created in the 1980s. I established the advanced figures, but does he realise that the jobs being created in manufacturing centres at Barnsley college and Gwent coalfield communities—in County Durham, for example— college using union money in 1986. Why did the Tory are low paid, part time and insecure? The scandalous Government refuse us money for that initiative 20 years thing that I came across in my constituency last week is earlier? that some young people are not in any figures at all. They have opted out of the system. They are working in the Matthew Hancock: The question is about how we black economy, which is clearly having an effect on the tackle these problems for the future. Although coal EU rebate. That is what is happening on the ground. mining areas were hard hit by the great recession, it is The Minister can quote as many figures as he likes, true, and ought to be acknowledged, that unemployment but— is now falling in every one of the communities affected. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. In Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am grateful fairness, we have a lot of speakers, including, in fact, the to the Minister for giving way, but let me bring him hon. Gentleman, and I hope to get everyone in. We will bang up to date. Durham coalfield was one of the not have long interventions. 253 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 254

Matthew Hancock: The hon. Gentleman may like to today—has not been told. Today, I want to put on record deny the figures, but I do not think of them only as the miners’ strike through the eyes of a Nottinghamshire figures; they are the livelihoods of individual young miner, which I was proud to be. people, which are being given to them by this Conservative- In 1984, I was a miners’ leader on one of the most led Government. profitable pits in the country. I was the National Union I want to talk about some of the specific actions that of Mineworkers secretary at Ollerton colliery. We hear we have taken under the Government. I join the shadow so much about the Government, but there is now a Minister in paying tribute to the work of the Coalfields Tesco where that top 10 pit once was. We were five years Regeneration Trust. Established in 1999 to support and into Margaret Thatcher’s reign as Tory Prime Minister. improve communities at the grass roots, the trust has She was well into her Government’s de-industrialisation created and safeguarded more than 4,000 jobs and of the British economy and it was the miners’ turn. helped 125,000 to gain new skills. The trust’s funding From her point of view, it was unfinished business from has helped to put it on a long-term footing. the 1972 and 1974 miners’ strikes. Against that background, the plan to give back power Margaret Thatcher commissioned Nicholas Ridley, to local communities, using local plans and local enterprise her head guru, to devise a plan to run down the mining partnerships, will allow us to focus support through industry and destroy the National Union of Mineworkers. growth deals and city deals to ensure that support from The 1979 Ridley plan was born. Its basis was to build Government is tailored to individual, local need. Domestic massive coal stocks, double nuclear power stations, coal production still contributes to our national coal change trade union laws to weaken trade unions’ right consumption—about a quarter of our total needs—and to strike and defend their members, and to use the continues to be an important employer, especially in powers of the state to attack working people. areas of low employment, with 4,000 people being employed in the industry. We must support them, as I David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will the hon. mentioned in my exchange with the hon. Member for Gentleman give way? Bolsover (Mr Skinner). Mr Hood: No, I am not giving way. Mr Hepburn: What does the Minister value more? He talks about new opportunities in this day and age. Does The Prime Minister had tried that in 1981 but had to he value an apprenticeship with the old National Coal back off when her coal stocks were too low. The hapless Board, with apprentices being well trained for four Energy Secretary, now Lord Howell, was the fall guy for years and coming out as top engineers, or does he prefer her failure, and she later sacked him, but her 1981 and value more the apprenticeships that have been unpreparedness was not to be repeated in 1984, when encouraged under this Government, such as the sandwich she decided she was better ready to crush the miners architect apprenticeship in Subway? and their union. At the beginning of the miners’ strike, there were Matthew Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is mistaken 250 pits and 250,000 miners. Thatcher had previously if he is talking down apprenticeships. As the former appointed Sir Ian MacGregor, the former American apprenticeships Minister, I will have no truck with people banker, as chairman of British Steel to run down the talking down apprentices or attacking them. The previous steel industry. His reward for his success in that was to Government said, “You’re not of value unless you went be given the reins to do the same in the coal industry. He to university”, but our Government say, “We support was made chairman of the National Coal Board. people who go to university and we support people who The miners had been on an overtime ban for six go through apprenticeships.” We will not have some months to oppose the declared NCB pit closures. The arbitrary target. We say, “We want to support you in the NUM did not want to go on strike and would have choices that you make.” We will not accept any lectures continued with the overtime ban indefinitely—the overtime from the Labour party on the massive expansion of ban was running the coal stocks down by the hour. apprenticeships under this Government in the coalfields Mrs Thatcher was facing another 1981 defeat and decided and beyond. to provoke the NUM into taking strike action. On I want to place it on the record that we will support 5 March, the Tory Government announced an accelerated the collieries, especially those of Kellingley and Thoresby, closure of five pits: Cortonwood colliery in Yorkshire, and work with them to ensure that we help them as Bullcliffe Wood colliery in Derby, Herrington colliery much as we can within the EU state aid rules. It is in Durham, Snowdown colliery in Kent, and Polmaise important to ensure that we support the coal mining in Scotland. The NUM in those areas immediately went that continues, but also that we put in place the broader on strike, and Ollerton, where I was the lead official, partnership for a stronger economy that will help people was picketed by Yorkshire miners the very next day, across the coalfields and the whole country. Let us not fighting to defend their jobs. return to the failed politics of the past, represented by For the next week, thousands of police were imported the Opposition today, but continue to strengthen that into Nottinghamshire to stop picketing. Hundreds of economy for the nation’s future. miners were arrested and imprisoned in Mansfield police station and other places before draconian bail conditions 5.15 pm were imposed on picketing miners. Mr Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East) (Lab): I welcome the debate, which is 30 years after the miners’ Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): My hon. Friend strike. Much has been written and said of that period, makes an important point. We heard earlier about how but so much of what really happened to miners, their miners were pushed into dependency on benefits, but families and communities—there was evidence earlier the other tragic legacy of the miners’ strike was the 255 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 256

[Toby Perkins] Matthew Hancock: Does my hon. Friend agree that at the end of this debate, those on the Opposition Front number of miners who were criminalised by what happened. Bench should dissociate themselves from the disgusting Will my hon. Friend say something about the impact on remarks of the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton proud people when they were told that they were criminals East (Mr Hood) and from the mistaken comparison of because of what happened in that miners’ strike? these issues to the behaviour of Jimmy Savile, which was astonishingly made by the shadow Minister, the Mr Hood: I was born a miner. Mining communities hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher)? If were the most law-abiding communities one could wish they do not, people will understand that the Labour for. During the miners strike, people were put in prison party has got its priorities completely wrong. who had never seen a prison even from afar. Much has been written about violence on picket lines. Mr Spencer: I am grateful for that intervention. The 30-year rule on publishing Cabinet papers needs to I am the only Member of Parliament in the Chamber be examined, and the conduct of the Home Secretary in today with a working colliery. Although I would like to directing police and courts must be disclosed. By the say that it is a pleasure to speak in this debate, the truth way, the current exposé of Sir Leon Brittan, the then is that I am quite sad to be doing so, as it is a massive Home Secretary, with accusations of improper conduct missed opportunity to look at the future of our coalfields with children, will not come as a surprise to the striking and former coalfields and how we could work together miners of 1984, as many of them— across the House to try and raise standards within those communities and support them. Conor Burns: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We can spend lots of time looking backwards at what The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East happened, and it gives me no pleasure to look back at (Mr Hood) has just made profoundly serious accusations some of the communities that the hon. Member for against a noble Lord. Is that in order? Lanark and Hamilton East (Mr Hood) mentioned, which happen to be in my constituency. We can talk Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): In fairness, I about how the NUM flooded Nottinghamshire with did not hear as I was talking to a Whip. It is up to each flying pickets to try to prevent my miners from working Member to decide what they say, and they must make in those coalfields, and we can talk about how, if that decision. Scargill had had a ballot, the Nottinghamshire miners would have had a vote in that ballot and it would have Mr Hood: I will repeat part of the point that I am given a lot more power to some of the arguments that making. The rumours that Sir Leon Brittan was involved we are hearing. in misconduct with children do not come as news to miners who were on strike in 1984, because when miners were going into the dock in magistrates courts we were Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman aware and miners were declaring— aware that the former chief constable of Devon and Cornwall, John Alderson, complained officially that the Matthew Hancock: Will the hon. Gentleman give Thatcher Government had used the police against the way? miners in a completely wrong way?

Mr Hood: No, I will not give way. I will give way Mr Spencer: I am very much aware. I was there and I when I have finished my point. lived in those communities at that moment. I saw what was happening on the picket lines. There were friends of Miners were saying in the dock in all the magistrates mine whose fathers were on the picket lines and whose courts throughout the strike that they objected to the brothers were on different sides of the argument, one in instructions coming from the Home Secretary when the National Union of Mineworkers and one in the there were reports of child abuse linked with that same Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Those scars are Home Secretary. still there in my community and they are not helped by holding party political debates such as this one, instead Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It is of working together to try to improve those communities. up to each Member, but we have to be very careful I am saddened that this is more about trying to draw a about what we say. We must consider what we are saying groundswell of support for the Labour party at the and what the implications are. ballot box than it is about genuinely solving the challenges we face, certainly in some of my communities in Mr Hood: Obviously, I accept what you say, Mr Deputy Nottinghamshire. Speaker. I am just repeating what I read in the papers— I say “some”, because in towns such as Hucknall and Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Time is up. Five minutes Calverton, in the former coalfields in the bottom half of have gone. I call Mr Mark Spencer. Sherwood, where there is access to employment and good transport links, the communities are bouncing forward. 5.22 pm There is very low unemployment in some of those villages, but further north, in places such as Ollerton and Clipstone, Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Thank you, where the communication and transport networks are Mr Deputy Speaker. not as good and where there is not the same access to work, the communities face challenges in trying to Matthew Hancock: Will my hon. Friend give way? aspire their way out of it. I now have families in my constituency who are third- generation welfare-dependent. Mr Spencer: I give way. The aspiration has gone from some of those kids. 257 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 258

We have to ask ourselves: what did the Blair Government As a young man at the time, I was fairly naive and I do when they created the Coalfields Regeneration Trust? honestly believed that the Government of the day, They spent far too much money on grassing down pit regardless of political persuasions, would tell the truth tips, planting trees and building women’s institute huts from the Dispatch Box. What was revealed when the and scout huts, when they should have been putting in Cabinet papers were released earlier this year was quite place infrastructure and transport networks and creating the opposite. It is not that miners did not believe or jobs. If someone does not have a job and their lad understand at the time that they were being conned by comes to them and says, “Dad, I want to go to scouts,” MacGregor and by Margaret Thatcher, the Prime Minister they cannot give him a tenner to go to scouts, because of the day. We knew that was the case. We knew, but it they cannot afford the money, even though there is a was good to have it confirmed in 2014. The Cabinet brand-new scout hut in their community. However, if papers revealed something quite sinister—a Government they have a job and their lad comes to them and says, controlling the police, insisting that the police move in “Dad, my scout hut’s knackered. We’re trying to raise against miners, insisting that the Army should be involved money for a new scout hut,” they will have a tenner to against miners, the likes of myself and other honourable give towards that fund-raising event. That is where we colleagues here who worked in the coal industry. My went wrong in the period following the closure of those father, my brothers, my friends, were all miners attacked pits. We should have been putting money into infrastructure by the police, yet the Government know that we were projects, apprenticeships and transport networks, to right. At the same time, Thatcher was prepared to bring give people in those communities the opportunity to get the Army in against ordinary, hard-working people. out and get a job. What an absolute disgrace. I was fortunate to have the Minister in his previous It was not really about economics. It was about an role come to Sherwood to talk about apprenticeships ideology and about destroying the coal mining industry and to look at some of the great work being done in and and driving trade unionism off the face of Britain. That around my community and at how we are moving is what the dispute was all about. It was not an industrial forward. The good news is that I held a jobs fair in dispute; it was a political dispute. As such, the miners Sherwood about six weeks ago. There were more jobs who were arrested, incarcerated, fined or whatever should advertised in that room than there are unemployed be given a complete amnesty. The whole fabric of the people in my constituency. The bad news is that there is mining community was attacked; the heart of these a skills gap. Some of those communities still lack the communities was ripped out. skills to take on those roles. The Government are working In the little time left, I want to focus on one point. flat out to try to fill the skills gap by creating apprenticeships Thatcher lied from that Dispatch Box. Cabinet Ministers and jobs that the kids coming out of those schools can lied from that Dispatch Box. Senior Ministers lied from go into. That is the way to solve the coalfield communities’ that Dispatch Box. Never mind harking back and saying deprivation: to give them the ability to aspire out of it, that somebody has died; we have a right to seek justice the ability to work their way, and the confidence that after a Government acted covertly, behind our backs, the Government of the day are looking after their and deliberately misled parliamentarians and the ability to move from wherever they are to any point in communities they represented. We are entitled to ask the social scale. for an apology. That is our mission; that is what we are trying to We saw what happened in Orgreave, with the police achieve. So what a tragedy it is that this debate is such a deliberately attacking miners, but there were little Orgreaves missed opportunity. We are going to spend three hours all over the country. It was not happening only in South looking backwards, talking about flying pickets, Scargill Yorkshire. We saw it in Ashington, where I lived; we saw and the good old pit days, when we should be talking it in Blythe; we saw it in Easington; we saw it all over the about how we move forward—how we give jobs and place where the police attacked ordinary hard-working aspiration to the next generation and how we work, people. Has anybody ever had someone spit in their whatever colour of Government, to try to solve the face? I cannot say how bad it is. A policeman spat in my undoubted challenges faced in those former coalfields. face, and I can tell you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am I congratulate the Minister on working with me to never getting over that. I never will. I could take the assist at Thoresby colliery in any way we can, working punches and I could take the truncheons—things that with UK Coal and the unions to try to extend the life of were widespread during the miners’ strike. Let us have a the colliery, which will run out of coal in 2018 anyway. I quick look at what happened. I am not after any apologies. would like to get the point where all the coal is extracted, but I am grateful for the support and the work done Mr Hain: Members of the Metropolitan police who together. We need at some point to start thinking about had been bussed down to Neath waved £50 notes at the post Thoresby period, because it will run out of coal striking miners. The Government should have the courage in 2018. We should be planning for that event now, to apologise now for the dastardly practice of criminalising working together to make sure that the next generation— the miners. because we have missed one—has that ability to aspire. Ian Lavery: I fully agree with that, but, speaking for 5.29 pm myself, I will not accept any apologies. I prefer to see Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): As a miner during the those on the Tory Benches, the Government of the day, miners’ strike, I should perhaps declare an interest. Like as the enemy within: it was not the miners but the Tories my family, friends and colleagues in the coalfield who were the real enemy within. We have three pits left. communities and towns, I have a vested interest because Let us get off our backsides and ensure, as soon as we we want to see justice and fairness after what happened possibly can, that they continue to operate, funded by all those years ago. state aid. Let us keep those pits working. 259 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 260

[Ian Lavery] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): I was not going to intervene, but, as We need a full inquiry into the way in which the the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the Government meddled. Their fingerprints were all over steel and metal related industry, I shall do so. The hon. the operations of the police and the strategy of the Gentleman knows that this Government unilaterally National Coal Board during the miners’ strike. Let me introduced the carbon price floor, which constitutes a say this as well. If the police had been taken to task higher tax than has been imposed by any of our competitors during that dispute, we might, just might, not have seen in the European Union. That is one of the main reasons what happened at Hillsborough, because the same police for the contraction of the industry, and also a big force had been at Orgeave, under the same control. reason for the fact that energy-intensive industries in We do not want any apologies. What we want is a full general have contracted in the UK. inquiry, so that those miners, who are now fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers, can sleep easy at David Mowat: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that night without being convicted. They should have been intervention, and he knows that I more than partially given medals for what they did in standing up for agree with him about the carbon price floor and the mining communities, instead of being criminalised. impact on energy-intensive industries, but is it right to pretend that the vote that took place on 4 December did 5.36 pm not matter? The hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher) did vote with Baroness Worthington and all of David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I apologise those people for the accelerated closure. That is what to the House for the fact that at no point in my speech happened and I think it was a key moment in the will I return to the events of the 1980s, which took place history of the Labour movement that that vote took nearly 40 years ago in the historical past. Instead, I will place with apparently so little concern. talk about the future of the mining industry in this country and in the world. I will say this, however. Forty The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and years ago, I went down a mine in Nottinghamshire. At East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) mentioned the carbon the time, I was considering a career in mining engineering. price floor and that is part of it, as is the subsidy regime It was a half day that I always remember. I would not that we have put in place. The closure of coal stations is have liked to make my life working down a mine, and I being driven by the large combustible directive and we very much respect those who did. I entirely recognise—as, are pursuing that, but it is worth saying that we are I am sure, do all Government Members—the contribution increasingly acting unilaterally in this regard. We should that the mining industry has made to the wealth of this remember that we are the only country in the EU that is country over the past 100 years and more, and I am very cutting the amount of coal we use. That is an extraordinary pleased about the money that has gone to the Coalfields statistic and people should reflect on that, particularly Regeneration Trust. those on the Labour Front Bench. It has been implied today that the mining industry is On 4 December there was a Labour three-line Whip dying globally—that it is on its last legs. Nothing could for a vote on Lords amendment 105. That amendment be further from the truth. The coalmining industry said that the emissions performance standard—which across the world grew by 3% last year in terms of means that new coal must, effectively, have carbon tonnage. Only in the United Kingdom, which now capture and storage—was to be applied to existing accounts for 0.9% of the global coal industry, have we coal stations. That is what Opposition Members were seen a contraction, and we have seen that contraction whipped through the Lobby to support, and I think it is partly because of the policies of the coalition. In an incredible. Apart from the effect on fuel poverty, we intervention on the Minister’s opening speech, I mentioned have seen the effect on Tata Steel and we are seeing the the vote that took place on 4 December when many, effect on the coal industry. The coal industry around although not all, Labour Members—I have checked the the world is prospering. I shall say it again: no form of names—voted in favour of extending the emissions energy increased in absolute terms as much as the coal performance directive to existing coal-fired power stations, industry did. which would have accelerated the closure of those stations. Such a unilateral move would have nothing to do with Mr Spencer: I just wonder if my hon. Friend recognises carbon reduction, and would have a massive impact on the challenge. At Thoresby colliery it is 8 km from the our existing coal-fired stations. pithead to the pit face, and it is 1 km down. How does it I shall say more about that later. First, let me return compete in a global market to get that coal from the to the subject of the world industry, which, as I said face to the surface, when in China and the States earlier, has grown by 3%. China produces 50% of the they can just bulldoze it out of the ground in open-cast world’s coal. Last year it increased its coal production sites? by eight times more, in absolute terms, than it increased the production of renewables, and its level of carbon David Mowat: I am not an expert on the economics of emissions per head was the same as that of the United the coal industry, but I would just say it is pretty heavy Kingdom. Moreover, every country in the European stuff and having to transport it an awfully long way has Union increased its coal production last year except got an economic impact. I am not suggesting that the for the UK: not just Poland—although we rely on it entire coal station fleet in the UK has to be sourced by heavily—but Austria and Germany, which has built UK Coal; it will come from abroad as well. I do say, 12 GW of unabated coal over the past few years. however, that by turning our back on coal more quickly Austria is a good example of a carbon junkie country. It than any other country in Europe or the world, we are is suing us because we are going ahead with Hinkley saying something about our intentions. We are taking Point C. important decisions for the future. 261 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 262

I know that many hon. Members, particularly those We need to know exactly what went on between the who represent constituencies in the coalfields, agree at Prime Minister’s office, MacGregor and the police in least in part with a lot of what I am saying. I really relation not only to Orgreave but to the hundreds of believe that there is more than one Labour party in this other state-sponsored illegal actions by the Government. regard. There is the Primrose Hill branch which has I remember when my parents and my aunt and uncle set forced this stuff through—the three-line Whip, the vote off from the north-east to travel to a brother’s funeral in on Lords amendment 105. I believe, however, that many Scunthorpe. They were turned back on the A1 by the Opposition Members—particularly those sitting on the police for no reason other than that my father was a Opposition Front Bench, whom I respect greatly—do trade unionist. They were dressed for a funeral, not for not really agree with some of that stuff, and some of the picket line. As far as I am aware, my parents have them at least did not vote for it, whether by accident or never committed a crime. They have never been arrested design. Nevertheless—[Interruption.] Yes, indeed: clearly and they do not have a criminal record, yet their movements by design. Nevertheless, that is what happened and what were restricted because my father was a trade unionist. we are talking about here is an issue in the Labour party. He was not even in the NUM. It needs to decide whether or not it wishes to support our coalfields in the same way that other parties across Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Lady give way? Europe support their own coalfields, or does it wish to just give in to the Primrose Hill section of the party? Pat Glass: I will not give way. This happened not in Pinochet’s Chile or in South 5.43 pm Africa during the apartheid regime; this happened in Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I am very the 1980s in Thatcher’s Britain. pleased to speak in this historic debate on justice for the coalfields campaign. It is clear from the Minister’s Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making remarks that he simply does not understand that the a compelling case and I am very pleased that she has scars from 1984-85 are still there and will not heal until paid tribute to the role of women in the miners’ strike all this is properly exposed. It is hard to fully measure and talked about the solidarity and the shining example the impact of Government actions on communities like that they set. Does she agree that it is still the women in mine in the 1980s and the years following. Those of us coalfields such as ours who feel most angry that this who lived through them were under no illusion at the Government are refusing not only to apologise but to time about the way in which the Government misled the put in the public domain all the information pertaining public, vilified our people and attempted to politicise to that time that would allow us to get justice for the the police. It is good that a light is now being shone on coalfield communities? this. I am not attacking the police. I have been married to Pat Glass: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It the constabulary for 30 years, but that does not mean was the women—the wives and daughters of the miners, that I am under any illusions about what the Thatcher as well as women in trade unionist families—who were Government did to try to politicise the police in this quite simply doing the right thing in their communities. country in 1984. And yes, those women are extremely angry that these issues have not been opened up to proper public scrutiny. My mother ran a miners support group in 1984. It was the forerunner of today’s Tory food banks. We I support the call for Ministers to set out all the supported 24 families throughout the strike. The miners details of the interactions between the Government and we supported were good, honest, decent people who did the police at the time of the strike, and to release all the not deserve what happened to them and their communities. information about Government-police communications They certainly did not deserve to be labelled the “enemy relating to Orgreave and all the other incidents that we within” by the Prime Minister and other Ministers of have heard about today. I also support the call for the day. They were standing up for their communities, Ministers swiftly to initiate an independent review of for their industry and for the dignity of the work that what happened at Orgreave and elsewhere if the the Tory Government were taking away from them. Independent Police Complaints Commission cannot or will not undertake a proper investigation of these matters. I support the call for an apology from Conservative Ministers for the secret pit closure plan and for even 5.48 pm considering the deployment of the Army against the people of this country. I cannot actually believe that I David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The hon. am saying that the Government were considering deploying Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) referred the Army against people who were doing nothing more to miners as an honest, decent, hard-working group of than standing up for their communities. people, and on that point she was absolutely right. Like I was elected to the House in 2010, and I have sat most other Members who have spoken in the debate, I through a number of debates in the House in which I have a direct connection with this subject. I was the first could not believe what I was hearing. I could not believe person for generations on my mother’s side of the the way in which the Government behaved in relation to family who was not raised in a pit village. Except for the Hillsborough tragedy, for example. I also could not one or two men who joined the Army, I was probably believe what I was hearing as I sat through the Prime the first male in the family who was not a miner. Minister’s statement on the death of Pat Finucane, a Virtually all of them were. shameful episode that amounted to nothing less than I am happy to speak here for those miners who state-sponsored murder. Now we are considering the wanted to work during the strike, as many of my relatives Government’s behaviour in the period leading up to, did. Disgracefully, a lot of myths have been perpetuated and during, the miners’ strike. today. It is interesting that not one Labour Member has 263 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 264

[David T. C. Davies] David T. C. Davies: Obviously, a police officer has never spat in my face. I am saying to the hon. Gentleman mentioned Arthur Scargill. The tragedy for the miners that there are occasions when police officers may behave was that they were disgracefully badly led by one man badly, having suffered extreme provocation. There is who felt that he had the right to run the country. He one thing that it is very important to say: police officers tried to bring down the Government in 1974 and tried do not go looking for trouble, looking for fights and again for a strike in the 1980s. He balloted his members looking to inflict violence; they want to go home every three times and lost, then brought them out on strike night. Frankly, they want a quiet life and they do not go anyway. He was absolutely hated by many miners, as around looking for trouble. well as by many in the Labour movement. It is an open secret that the leader of the Labour party at the time, Ian Lavery rose— Neil Kinnock, hated Arthur Scargill. Many people in the Labour movement hated him, and the reality is that David T. C. Davies: I am willing to give way one more he hated them. Labour Members are all trying to line time because I respect the fact that at least this Labour themselves up as friends of the miners now, but the Member knows something about the working classes, reality is that Arthur Scargill would have despised the which is more than I can say for a lot of them. new Labour party that sits in the Chamber today as much as he hated the Tories. Ian Lavery: Thanks again. I have to say, however, that a brother of mine is a police inspector, and there is a Andrew Bridgen: My hon. Friend rightly gives the huge difference between the police force today and the other perspective to this sad story of our country’s one we experienced during the miners’ strike and then history: that of the areas where the miners wanted to during the Hillsborough fiasco. By goodness, it is a work and the intimidation they faced, which split our good job, too. communities in half. The Labour party has always supported the right to work, but what about the right to David T. C. Davies: There are differences in respect of work at that time of miners who wanted to go down the the police, the NUM, the Labour party and the pit and did not want to join the strike? How about Conservative party, but one thing is for certain: that was respecting that? a political strike and it was not brought about by the then Government. They did not want a strike like that. David T. C. Davies: My hon. Friend makes an important The NUM, led by Arthur Scargill, had decided that it point, because one third of the miners continued to wanted to bring down the Government—that is an work throughout that strike and many more would have absolute fact—and he failed three times to persuade the done so had they been able to. Of course it was not just miners to go with him so he took them out anyway, the mining union and the miners themselves who were against their wishes. split on this; the whole trade union movement was split I have two and a half minutes left, so let us talk about on it. The steelworkers did not particularly want the today, because we now have a different situation and a strike to go ahead and the shipworkers’ unions were not very different NUM. Its representatives came to give in favour of it; they were all happy to turn a blind eye to evidence to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs and coal that was still being pulled out of the ground, and they were not singing the praises of Arthur Scargill. I they knew that they had to, because if the steel furnaces believe the union has some sort of legal dispute with had been allowed to run down, it would not just have him at the moment. He hastened the end of an industry been miners who lost their jobs but thousands of by making it clear to the Government that they would steelworkers. But none of that was important to Arthur not be able to rely on coal to generate electricity, so it is Scargill; he was more than happy to risk the jobs of not in the least bit surprising that they went ahead with thousands of other working people, as well as those of the dash for gas and for nuclear—that was the only way the miners, to try to impose his will on a democratically they could be certain of keeping the lights on. It is a elected Government who had just won a very large great shame that he hastened the end of the industry. Of majority. course, some pits would have shut down, because some The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), along of them simply did not have any coal left, but a good with many others, criticised the police and asked whether leader of the miners at that time would have got public we had ever had someone spit in our face. I have had support by demanding better redundancy measures and someone spit in my face, and I have also been in violent better measures to help the coalfield communities get situations as a serving police officer. I know that emotions through what was going to be a very difficult time. can run high and that there can be inappropriate behaviour Instead, he led them all out on a strike they did not when people are suffering extreme provocation. All want and did not support, and lost all public opinion. those thousands of people who turned up at the Orgreave The resulting catastrophe for many miners is something cokeworks—and had been badly led—had been taken we can lay entirely at his door and, interestingly, not there to stop people working, in order to prevent coke one person here is wiling to defend him. from being delivered to the steelworks. Had they succeeded, they would have destroyed thousands of jobs. Sir Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab): I should like to point out that Arthur Scargill never closed a single pit. Ian Lavery: I advise the hon. Gentleman not to cite This debate is about whether there should be an inquiry. something that I did not say. In certain circumstances, a The fact of the matter is that 11,800 people were police officer spat in my face when I was on the ground arrested, 5,000 of whom were taken to court. Hundreds being restrained. The hon. Gentleman suggests that of them went to jail, some quite wrongly, including someone has spat in his face, but has a police officer some of my constituents in Mansfield. The call is simple: ever spat in his face? we need a full inquiry. 265 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 266

David T. C. Davies: I was generous in giving way, and constituent’s wall to get around. Yes, I went through all it is a pity that it was abused. The reality is that I am that, and I have been in jail and all the rest of it—not on more on the hon. Gentleman’s side than he realises. I do that strike, but another one. not buy into this nonsense about global warming. I do Anyway, many months ago, I asked the Speaker for not believe that carbon is creating a runaway problem closure. I thought he was so clever—he has a bigger we cannot cope with, and I wish that I had more time to vocabulary than any of us—he would be able to find a go into why not. There is a place for coal in generating way to get the Government to admit that we needed electricity. There is an NUM now that is much more closure. Why? Because it was not one Minister lying for moderate than it used to be. I fully support anyone who 10 minutes or 10 seconds in the House. This was about a comes forward with a package that will allow us to use long lie that lasted for 12 months. So how many Ministers coal—British coal—to generate electricity.I urge Members did lie? from all parts of the House to think very carefully about any measures now— Conor Burns: I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman another minute. He referred to the miners’ strikes of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call 1970s and the determination of the NUM then to bring Dennis Skinner. down Ted Heath’s Government. Does he agree that Arthur Scargill’s objective in the 1980s was to break the 5.55 pm Thatcher Government, something the Labour movement Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): I do not think could not manage at the ballot box? that I am from the Primrose Hill set. I still have a Parkray that burns coal, but, if it is any consolation, I Mr Skinner: The truth is that, if the deputies, who have a hybrid car to cover my tracks. That sets the scene. had a 70% ballot, including in Nottinghamshire, had This is about closure—that is what we want. We want used that ballot, we would have won. If there had been closure. Indeed, the Tories all say they want closure; a second front of the dockers that lasted not for a week everybody does. That is what we are after; all we want is but for a month, we would have won. If Mrs Thatcher closure of this period of our lives. We all know the facts: had not got the oil from Gaddafi—yes, Gaddafi. She 1972 and 1974 were victories for the NUM, and no one begged Gaddafi to sell her more oil. Just think about it. has yet mentioned that. They were significant because That combination in the tent. God almighty. If that had they happened under Ted Heath, and Thatcher was his not happened, we would have won. So we had many successor. opportunities. Do not think it was a runaway victory. We fought as well as we could, but we were battling When my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and against not only the police. All the higher echelons of Hamilton East (Mr Hood) talks about being lured on state were ranged against us. It has never happened to the punch at Cortonwood and the other four receiving before, apart from during the 1926 strike. That was an pits, it was deliberate. By the way, the miners’ union is a honourable year. Men at 60 were prepared to sacrifice federation. Nearly every member of the federation had the roof over their own head for a 16-year-old lad in a had a ballot. There had been a ballot in Scotland with a coalfield they did not even know existed. That was 78% majority.The figure was similar in Durham, Yorkshire honour, and I am proud to have fought every single day. and south Wales. When we add it all up and include I would love to do it again. Nottinghamshire, it was a big majority, but nobody talks about that. So we need closure on this problem. Let us remember that it was a very honourable dispute; 6.2 pm it was not about money, mammon and greed. It is Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I am not sure true that in 1972 and 1974, I would have joined any whether I can match the passion of the hon. Member demonstration or any strike whether or not it was about for Bolsover (Mr Skinner), but I will pay tribute to him money. I did join strikes in those years, and they were as a man of principle who sticks to those principles, relatively short. As we all know, one of them resulted in unlike those on his Front Bench. I am extremely a victory for Labour against Ted Heath. Therefore, the disappointed tonight in the tone of the Opposition Tory party—I do not see why it is hiding its light under Front-Bench spokesmen. As someone who represents a a bushel—was determined to get revenge. I could see it constituency that used to depend very much on coal in their eyes in here. mining, there is much in the motion that I can agree I have lived long enough—I did not know whether I with about the legacy of the coal industry. But what has would—to see that what my hon. Friends and I said disappointed me most today, and will have disappointed during that strike was right. I said 75 pits would be many of my constituents, is that the debate has all been closed. The Tories were trying to say that only 20 would predicated on the events of 30 years ago, trying to wind be. When they closed Cortonwood, it was in the top 75, the clock back to then. Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen not the top 20. So it was evident that we were right. In should reflect on their 13 years in government, on the many industrial disputes, a striker does not manage to fact that there were some people on their Benches live long enough to realise they were right. I think I am looking for this type of closure, but on three occasions, nearly right now about the EU, but I will not go into between 2007 and 2009, the Labour Government refused that because it is another matter. to provide information under the Freedom on Information What I am saying is that we are after closure on what Act 2000. So Opposition Front Benchers have a lot to was an important industrial dispute. It was an honourable answer for to their Back-Bench Members. strike, and I do not see it in the way that the Tories I want to move on to what is happening now. I was portray it. It is true that policemen stopped me from also very disappointed that Labour Front Benchers did walking in my constituency at Shirebrook where the not mention the problems faced by my constituents and police were gathered in strength. I had to walk on a the sad closure of Daw Mill colliery. I know that some 267 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 268

[Mr Marcus Jones] 6.7 pm

Labour Members were also saddened to hear about Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I am happy to what happened. We did not hear one word from Labour contribute to a comradely discussion, Mr Speaker. Front Benchers about the men who lost their jobs at South Wales has a long and proud history of coal Daw Mill. We did not hear one mention of the people mining. It reached its peak just before the first world who lost their jobs in the supply chain, the people who war, when the industry employed nearly a quarter of a have had their pensions reduced, the people who lost million men. After the first world war, it began a slow their concessionary coal allowance, which was later but steady decline until its demise today. It went from reinstated by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, and the 1926 miners’ strike, that summer of soups and the people who lost much of the redundancy payments speeches, as the Rhymney valley poet Idris Davies wrote, that they were expecting and had to rely on statutory to the struggles of the 1930s and the closures of the redundancy. 1960s and ’70s, although it has to be said that attempts That was highlighted in a letter to one of my local were made by Labour Governments at that time to find papers, the Nuneaton News, from a Union of Democratic an alternative source of employment in the area. Mineworkers official. He strongly criticised the lack of Then, of course, we saw the miners’ strike of ’84 and action from local Labour councillors at the time of the ’85. I remember the strike, when I was a young man—a Daw Mill closure, but he also strongly criticised the very young man—because I was involved in my local Leader of the Opposition, because the UDM wrote to miners support group. We met in the local Conservative him at the time, when it was desperate for help, and he club, which nobody thought was strange because the did not even have the courtesy to reply. I think that that, whole community supported the miners in my village. along with the comments by my hon. Friend the Member We were absolutely clear that the fight was about defending for Warrington South (David Mowat), really shows the jobs and communities. We were under no misapprehension support that the Leader of the Opposition is willing to at that time—it has been proven since: as far as the give the coal industry and the people who worked in it. Conservative Government of the day were concerned, it It is not the same as the real commitment to those was a political strike. They were out to break the trade people shown by some Labour Members who have union movement, and the vanguard of the movement spoken today. was the National Union of Mineworkers. Let us make The motion also mentions the health legacy of the no mistake about it, because that was proven beyond coal industry, such as respiratory illnesses, and that is doubt. After the strike was over—yes, the miners were important. I congratulate the Labour Government on defeated—the full vengeance of the Government was the work they did to get some compensation for miners, displayed in the number of pit closures that occurred. but they also have a legacy to answer for themselves, The Government said that they acted on economic because in my constituency, and others like it, where grounds, but that lie was shown up very clearly in the there are many such legacy issues, the health funding case of Tower colliery in Cynon Valley. My right hon. was one of the lowest per head of population in the Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) led whole country. That is not looking after people who the miners of the colliery in a sit-down protest. Eventually, worked in the mining industry or who are living with although the Government wanted to close it, a miners’ the legacy of it. co-operative was formed and it maintained its profitability I am glad that this Government have started to for 13 years after the strike. That showed, above all, that address the inequality in health funding. Progress on the Conservative Government were concerned not about that has not been as quick as I would like it to be, and I the economics of the coal industry but about the politics hope that those on the Front Bench will pass those of this country. That is why it was correct to have that comments on to the Secretary of State for Health, but dispute, even though the miners lost. I am proud to say we are starting to make inroads in an area that was that the south Wales miners remained largely united completely ignored by the Labour Government. and, with dignity, led the other miners back to work. We are recovering from the legacy of the coal industry During that whole period of adversity and decline, in my constituency. Many of the people who lost their one of the hallmarks of communities in south Wales was jobs at Daw Mill have secured new jobs, although I the amazing sense of community solidarity that existed acknowledge that many of them are not as well paid—it then, which I believe still exists today. That was shown is important that we all understand that. Unemployment clearly in 1926 and in the 1930s, but it was shown very has come down by 40% over the past 12 months. We recently as well. As my hon. Friend the Member for need to make opportunities in those areas, and only by Barnsley East (Michael Dugher) said, last year, in the creating the atmosphere in which business can thrive village of Senghenydd in my constituency, we had an will that happen. This Government are certainly doing enormously successful community initiative to raise that. We are not harking back to the past 30 years. To money to build a national mining memorial. That was do so would not be wise, because that will not help important in itself, but also because it showed the anybody. community coming together to pay tribute to past Several hon. Members rose— sacrifices and say, “We are united today and we are Mr Speaker: Order. The time limit at the moment is looking forward to the future.” set at five minutes, although it could be revised downwards. We still face huge problems in south Wales, which are Only Opposition Members now wish to speak, so with partly a legacy of what happened with the Tories and what I will describe as comradely co-operation, more the coal industry. We are still seeing acute levels of comrades will have a chance to contribute. You do not unemployment, poverty and low pay, with economic have to speak for five minutes, so do not feel obliged to inactivity continuing. In the aftermath of ’84 and ’85, do so. the Conservatives deliberately encouraged miners to go 269 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 270

“on the sick” so that they did not show up in the In 1979, that fateful year, 11 Scottish National party unemployment figures. We are still living with that Members joined the Tories, brought down a Labour deliberate act of Government policy. Government and gave us 18 years of the Tories, but has Today it is high time that, once again, we all join in a everyone forgotten the Ridley report? It recommended comradely way to make sure that the needs of the south taking out the union movement because we would get a Wales coalfield are addressed. I hope—indeed, I am majority here. The trade unions had 12 million members confident—that when we see a Labour Government in those days. The report identified two unions in particular: elected in a few months’ time, they will work in partnership the dockers and the miners. Unfortunately, it fell to with the Labour-led Assembly to make sure that we us—I wish it hadnae, but it did. have, once again, dynamic policies for the south Wales The bottom line is that we have to learn from the past valleys that will bring prosperity to the people we to determine what will happen in the future. represent. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- op): My hon. Friend is making a passionate and powerful 6.12 pm case. Does he agree that there also needs to be an inquiry into the convictions in Scotland during the Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I hope to miners strike, and is he surprised that the Scottish take all five minutes for my speech, Mr Speaker. I Government have not agreed to such an inquiry? apologise for that, but though I rarely speak in the Chamber, it would be remiss of me not to speak on this subject. Mr Hamilton: I am not surprised. The SNP were tartan Tories in the past and they are making a similar I am going to put a different spin, if that is agreeable, alliance now. The Government have not agreed an on what has been said already. I started in the pit when I inquiry, but they should. was 15 and was going down the pit at 16. I will not go over all the history, but I worked in the pit for 20 years. In Scotland, we were out on strike along with the rest of Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): the coalfields. Major decisions were made. The judges My hon. Friend will know that today is the 75th anniversary in Scotland ruled that the strike was legal there. Scotland of the Valleyfield pit disaster, when 35 men went to was the only area that had a ruling on that basis. work but did not come home to their wives, mothers and families. Does he agree that we owe them and their I would like to talk about the role that everybody families a legacy, to make sure there is a stronger future played throughout that period and the strength we for all our communities? gathered from it. Women did not just stand behind us—by the end of the strike they were standing in front of us, usually trying to protect us because most of us Mr Hamilton: I accept and agree with everything that had been arrested umpteen times on the picket line. has been said. I was present at the Auchengeich disaster Great things happened as a result. Women ended up at memorial, which reminds us of the price of coal. It is the forefront: they became councillors, politicians and really important that we get that in perspective. trade unionists. Some even became MPs. I worked in a colliery for 20 years and was there during the miners strike. Although this is my story, it We talk about the victimisation and hardships of reflects what happened right through the coalfield. I people who want to go to work, but let me tell you spent from October to December 1984 in Saughton about the people who worked all their days in the pits prison. I was accused of assaulting a man who had been and the sacrifices that were made. I have to disagree my friend for many, many years. I had a two-day trial by with my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East jury in Scotland, after which the jury took 20 minutes to (Michael Dugher) on one point: I never agreed with a decide that it was a stitch-up. It took them 10 minutes ballot then, and I never agree with a ballot now. That is to elect the chairman of the jury, so it only took them because an older man who had been in the pit for 10 minutes to determine that it was a stitch-up. That is 40-odd years would rightly want to take a redundancy what was happening the length and breadth of the payment, but the younger men were entitled to a future. country. I only say that because many, many miners If there had been a ballot, older men would be voting went to jail and were found innocent, but they never got for younger men to lose out. We therefore had a show of to go back to work. hands, and we had solidarity—there was a lot of solidarity. A lot of older people in the collieries made sacrifices on Remember that the deal was clear: intimidate the behalf of the young. work force, and the best way to do that is by intimidating the union and taking out union officials. I do not want There were sacrifices in my area of the Lothians: to go on about the history, but it is important that we 46 men from one pit ended that strike sacked, 36 men learn from history in order to deal with how we go were sacked from the pit up the road, and five were about the future. sacked from another. Let me tell you about victimisation: of the four branch officials at Monktonhall, three were The more things change, the more they stay the same. sacked, and of the 12 committee members, eight were That is an old saying, but it is true. On victimisation, sacked, to make sure that when we went back to work 206 men were sacked in Scotland and 1,000 men were we would toe the line. We should remember that before sacked throughout the UK. Some got back, but it cost the strike started union officials up and down the country them dearly, not just in employment, but in health and were told, “There’s your agreement.”Previous agreements everything else. were torn up and they were told, “You’re starting three shifts next week.” We were pounded for a year before Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Will my hon. the strike started, but it goes back further than that. Friend give way? 271 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 272

Mr Hamilton: I havnae got time. Victimisation happens What a farce. One of the worst things about it is that right now. Just look at Grangemouth. They sacked the one way the Government will do so is by continuing every senior shop steward there—this is 30 years on, by the year to import 50 million tonnes of coal that has blood way—and told the rest of the work force, “You’ll do as on it—the blood of Chinese miners, of Russian miners you’re told or you’ll end up the same as him.” and, as we saw earlier this year, of the 300 Turkish On blacklisting, just talk to the construction industry. miners who died. When blacklisting took place, it took me two and a half The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) years to get a job. That was before I came here, before I was absolutely right to say that we should have had a became a councillor and before I started a company. much more pro-coal attitude in this country. The problem I was sick of going for jobs and being told, “Yes, you’ll is that they shut the coal mines when we were the start on Monday,” only to then get a letter saying leading proponents of clean coal technology in this otherwise because they had checked their computers— country. The film “Brassed Off” was mentioned earlier. remember the McWhirter twins?—and found that my It was set around Grimethorpe colliery, where we were name was blacklisted along with those of hundreds and making oil out of coal 25 years ago, but it was closed on thousands of other people. That is happening in this a whim and at a stroke of a Minister’s pen. day and age. I want to ask Ministers four specific questions. They Then there is phone hacking. Everybody sympathises are about going forward, not about the past, and about with the Dowlers, but let me say—it was called phone how we should address this issue today.First and foremost, tapping in my day—that the police throughout the country will they give a commitment to release all the papers used to tap the phones at all the strike centres. I remember identified from the 1980s? Without that, we are wasting an occasion when there was a message to go to picket a our time. place, and 450 police turned up. I sent messages out along the lines, saying, “No, we’re going to occupy their Secondly, will Ministers give the Coalfields Regeneration Trust the real support it needs? People passionately headquarters,” and that is what we did the following day. support the CRT—including the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), whom I respect massively—but I want to end on a serious note. We are talking about the truth is that it has been cut, cut and cut again, and it history, but we are also talking about the future. We has been told that it must become supported by grants have got to learn the lessons of the past. In the 21st century, because it will not be getting any public money. We need do we want to live in a society that has all the hallmarks such public money to rescue these communities. of being the worst place in the world in the 20th century? If this is the 21st century, let us be human beings Thirdly, will Ministers accept the details of the report about this. produced by Sheffield Hallam university, and will they work with it and the all-party group on coalfield Several hon. Members rose— communities to try to address the problems that there are in every coalfield across this country? Mr Speaker: Order. I am afraid that the limit will Fourthly, the Minister for Business and Enterprise have to be cut to four minutes after the speech we are mentioned the support for Kellingley and Thoresby about to hear. collieries several times, but will Ministers confirm for the record and admit that the money—it is a loan, because UK Coal has to pay it back—was only lent to 6.20 pm the two collieries if they agreed to be shut down within Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): To help, 18 months and not, as was said earlier, have their life Mr Speaker, I will not take interventions. extended to 2018? It is a fact that that was the only I was amazed by the lack of seriousness among ground on which the money was loaned. Government Front Benchers when they thought that There is no doubt that we are where we are because of my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael a deliberate policy. Through the 1980s, there was an Dugher) was talking about Jimmy Savile. He was talking attempt to cut back: between 1985 and 1991, some about Lord Saville’s report on Bloody Sunday and the 120 pits closed. I have to be honest about the fact that Hillsborough report. This issue has exactly the same many of them were well past their sell-by date. I worked stature: things went on in the name of the state and, at one of them: it had been going since 1825 and was on whatever our views about what happened in the past, its last legs. In 1992, on the back of the election, we as representatives of the state today have a responsibility Michael Heseltine came up with a hit list of 31 top-quality to the future to release the papers, as my hon. Friend mines that could still have been producing coal for this the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) said. country. By the way, there was not a word about that in This debate is opportune because there have been the manifesto—not one word. At the time, they said reports in the papers over the past few days about the Arthur Scargill was lying, but they proved that he was state of energy supplies in this country. A recent report not, because those 31 pits were shut within weeks. in a newspaper called The Register stated: As well as the pits being closed, the manufacturing “The capacity crunch has been predicted for about seven industry in parts of the world like mine was decimated. years… Everyone seems to have seen this coming—except the Companies such as Huwood, Anderson Boyes, Gullick people in charge.” Dobson and Dowty, which had been leading the world, We saw a lot of it coming 30 years ago, but nobody went to the wall. I have a friend who still works in listened to us. What do we have now? We have a situation coalfield engineering. In 1984, he worked in Motherwell. in which, as we are told in the same report: In the 1990s, he worked in Ilkeston in Derbyshire. He “The UK government will set out Second World War-style now travels every week from Leeds Bradford international measures to keep the lights on and avert power cuts”. airport to Dortmund because we no longer have that 273 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 274 industry in this country, when we used to lead the world The people in the south Wales valleys towns deserve in it. Hundreds of small and medium-sized businesses the best possible support and a new deal for a better closed, including shops, and communities were decimated. future. Only a Labour Government can see that job The truth is that we have left no future for our kids. through. I say to the Minister today: please give us justice, give us some relief, give us the truth. 6.28 pm John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I have a series of Mr Speaker: A four-minute limit now applies. questions for the Minister. In 2001, I was elected in a constituency that was awash 6.25 pm with heroin, death from heroin and families plagued by heroin. We have beaten that back. Under the last Labour Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): A few weeks ago, Government, crime was reduced by 400%. We now have my borough of Blaenau Gwent had the privilege of a 30% cut in policing. Will the Government reverse the screening the Welsh premier of “Still the Enemy Within” cut in front-line policing that I am seeing in my community? in our historic and award-winning Market Hall cinema. Will they get the police back on the beat in our communities, That moving documentary about the ’84 strike captured which we have lost under this Government? the most important trade union dispute of our lives. It Secondly, we are forced by the Government’s inspectorate reminded me of the worry that I felt for my family—the to have housing where we do not want it and where the knot that I had in my stomach for that whole year, when community rejects it, despite their so-called localism. nearly all my uncles and cousins were colliers on strike. There is a proposal from the council for 750 houses to It took me back to the time when the community was be built on the Harworth colliery site with housing zone united in standing by our lads. It also reminded me of status. That is about to be determined by the Government. Tory Minister Nick Ridley’s insidious plan to take on Will the Minister announce that we are going to get that, the miners—the miners whose side I would always be so that we can build housing there and move forward in on and for whom I would always work. that community? Blaenau Gwent was built on the two pillars of coal Under the last Labour Government there was huge and steel. The community and the culture were as investment that led, for example, to Laing O’Rourke strong as those pillars. There was not a lot of money in and the Steetley brickwork sites, creating 500 jobs. It led anyone’s pocket. I remember picking coal off the mountains to the Manta Wood site with thousands of jobs, including as a small boy to heat our home during one strike. at B&Q, Keltruck, and many others. We now want a Families knew the toll that the heavy industries took—a brand new employment zone along the A1 down from terrible legacy that is shown these days in our poor the former Harworth colliery, and to create thousands health record. Despite all that, we had strong roots to of jobs, looking into the future, five, 10, and 15 years rely on and high hopes for the next generation. ahead, as well as tomorrow. Will the Government give In the 30 years since, Blaenau Gwent has had a fight us support and assistance in getting that? on its hands to get back on its feet. The two pillars are Under the last Labour Government we got rid of the long gone and not enough private sector industry has roundabouts on the A1—every single one went, which filled the gap. Blaenau Gwent is slowly pulling itself up meant a 10-minute saving per journey for every company. by its bootstraps, but we need a new deal to get us That is huge amounts of money and jobs for major properly back on our feet. We have received good distribution companies. The Elkesley bridge, announced support from the Welsh Government and Europe for in 2009 by a Labour Government, is only just being towns such as Ebbw Vale, which has a new school built now because it was delayed by this Government. complex, a new hospital and much more on the site With high-speed rail coming in, will the Government where the steelworks once stood. We now need support commit to giving us the bypass and dual carriageway that not only strengthens our public services, but gives that we need to connect my community with new high-speed us a chance to thrive once more. rail, and a rail link that is direct and immediate so that Blaenau Gwent is not alone. Our neighbouring valley when it comes we can link to it? boroughs need support too, and we need a valleys agenda The Coalfields Regeneration Trust has done tremendous to help us move forward. That is why I will continue to work, as has the Coal Industry Social Welfare Organisation. campaign for infrastructure improvements, such as the Under the previous Government we got £1.5 million for electrification of the valleys rail network and a new Manton miners welfare, which is the most successful metro system. That would help to improve the access football project for kids anywhere in this country, with that valley people have to the bigger jobs market on the the participation of other sites that CISWO owns—there coast. are many more across the country. Will the Government We need first-rate guidance for young people to put the money in to allow those sites to be properly dramatically improve their social mobility and access to regenerated and developed for sport in this country, the professions, so that they can get well-paid work and because they are sat there waiting for it? do not get trapped in low-skilled, low-paid jobs. We We have the biggest investment in new secondary need a range of employers to be given every incentive to schools per pupil anywhere in Britain, and in Bassetlaw, make coalfield communities such as Blaenau Gwent seven out of eight schools are newly built. However, we their home. Half measures are not enough. We have a are still waiting for the one at Selby Park, which was strong responsibility to give every young person in meant to be built last. It was to be started in 2010, so Blaenau Gwent the chance to succeed. They do not will the Government announce after the five-year delay have to pick coal off the mountain during strikes like we that Selby Park secondary school will be rebuilt like all did, but they have their own difficulties in getting a the others in the middle of a former mining community good start in life. that needs it? 275 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 276

[John Mann] grants to individual groups—a wonderful thing to do. The economic regeneration, like the advanced manufacturing Under this Government we have had to fight off plant that has been mentioned, began under the last privatisation and the closure of fire stations and ambulance Government through the regional development agency, stations. We want a guarantee that the NHS will not be which was abolished when this Government took office, privatised and that our 999 services will still be there. and through objective 1 funding, because we were that Finally, we must look to the future. The 400th anniversary poor that at the time we received European money. We of the pilgrim fathers is coming up, and there is Sherwood should not forget that Europe did a lot to turn South forest, which should be a new national park. There are Yorkshire round, although, as the report published in new kinds of industry, so will the Government help us June this year showed, there is still a lot more to do on to develop them into the future? jobs and ill health in mining communities, which we have suffered for generations. 6.32 pm Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): I will be as brief 6.36 pm as possible. First, the “State of the coalfields” report Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): published in June highlights major issues in coal mining It has been humbling to listen to comrades who were communities, not just the closure programmes, but problems involved in the miners’ strike. I can confirm to my hon. that have been there for decade upon decade and particularly Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) that concern jobs and ill health. It is all to do with income. I was indeed one of the women who was brought into Although the Government were right to say that the Labour movement—and very proud to be so. unemployment is decreasing in mining communities, I agree with everything that has been said about pro rata it is not decreasing half as much as it has done justice for communities, but I want to make a specific in the healthier south-east of this economy. That issue point about the plight of my coalfield community. The must be addressed and is highlighted well in that report. bottom line is that to this day the coal industry remains The first intervention made by the hon. Member for important to our local area. The open-cast companies Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) was about who have been responsible for the worst environmental disaster closed the coal mines in the last century, but it is a imaginable, with two companies being placed in nonsense argument to say that Labour closed more administration in 2013. The immediate result was the mines between 1964 and 1974. The real question concerns loss of more than 300 jobs, but the massive scale of who closed the coal mines, and when they closed, how environmental devastation left in east Ayrshire soon much coal was imported into this country to replace it? became evident: an estimated 2,000 hectares of unrestored Never under the Wilson Government did we bring coal and disturbed land, with almost a quarter of the area into this country to replace coal lost as a result of the having 22 voids, 16 of which are filled with water more closure programme, which is what we had to do under than 50 metres deep, and often unstable cliffs. the Thatcher Government. I came to the House in 1983, and I remember the coal miners’ strike—I have Orgreave Independent mining engineers have estimated restoration in my constituency. I had left the coal industry fewer liabilities in line with the original planning permissions than 12 months before to come to this place, and I and approved restoration plans at £161 million—money remember what happened. that we do not have. The total amount available, if we are lucky, is only £28.6 million. An independent I want to say two things. One concerns policing, and report by the council highlighted problems with its there are a lot of lessons to be learned from that. A operations and with companies reneging on their national reporting centre was set up during the miners’ responsibilities. That is why the communities that I and strike. Pro formas were handed out for police to charge my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun people using effectively the same language. My constituency (Cathy Jamieson) represent have been left devastated. backed on to Nottinghamshire. People were prevented Many failures, far too many to mention, are highlighted from leaving Yorkshire to go to Nottinghamshire, miles in the report. I strongly believe that, based on the away from where there may have been a breach of the findings of the report, there might be grounds for law. That was always going to be challenged, and it investigating the conduct of the directors of the coal should have been challenged because the policing of the operators, and I have raised this with the investigations strike was wrong. In May 1984 the Police Federation and enforcement services of the Insolvency Service. condemned the use of pro forma charge sheets against miners. This remains a bruising experience for the communities of east Ayrshire and I have raised my concerns over the Do not get me wrong: I and others in this Chamber environmental devastation and lack of accountability criticised the police and the stone throwers. On several numerous times and will continue to do so. I have raised occasions I called for a public inquiry into the policing this on the Floor of the House with previous Ministers of the miners’ strike and I still believe we should have and with this Minister. I look forward to the response. I one now, because this should never happen again in our know that in the past few days the leader of East communities. Ayrshire council has raised it again with the Department. I hope we have learned from what happened at that Responsibility is shared between the UK Government time, which was revenge for 1974. I was a striking miner and the Scottish Government, but so far we have got at that time and remember it well. I joined the Labour absolutely no change from either. party in the February of that year. I am a member of a coal taskforce—a cross-party The hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) talked initiative—that works closely with the communities. It about regeneration and the Coalfields Regeneration is true that we have made some progress but, at the end Trust, which is regenerating communities by giving of the day, we need funds to further the restoration. 277 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 278

Hargreaves, a new company, has taken over some of the case the miners—should organise themselves around mines, but there is no way it will deal with the whole those values of community and solidarity and create issue. I ask for a response from the Government. What the most powerful trade union this country has seen. will they do to help us? The disaster is the equivalent of The 1984 Cabinet papers reveal the truth, the underhand foot and mouth and flooding. It should not have happened, tactics and even the lies of the Government of that time, but that is not the fault of my constituents. I yet again both out in the communities and in the House. People make a plea for assistance with this devastating problem. talk about miners who continued to work, but they were lied to about the Government’s intentions. That is what 6.40 pm happened. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): This has been an The Government launched a full-scale assault on the extraordinary debate this afternoon. The wisdom, passion mining communities and, in doing so, destroyed the and experience of millions of people have been distilled independence of the police force. There were trumped-up by Labour Members. Only three Government Back charges all over the coalfield communities. Criminal Benchers spoke, but they gave not a word of contrition. justice was reduced to a political instrument. There is There was not even any body language, to show a sense even evidence that members of the armed forces were of guilt, remorse or apology for what was done during dressed in police uniforms by the then Government, all those years of the miners’ strike. The passion expressed this to achieve Tory party political objectives. exemplifies the feelings that still exist in the mining But we are not simply speaking today about history. communities. The Tory attitude to the miners and the former mining communities is symbolic of a wider view that they have David T. C. Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of working people as a whole. We need only look at the explosion in the use of zero-hours contracts, temporary Jon Trickett: I am not giving way to any hon. Member work and false self-employment to see that the Conservatives because we are running out of time. have not changed. They are still the same old nasty party. From time to time, passion leads hon. Members to Once again the Conservatives are turning their back say things—I am referring to the comments of my on mining communities. In my constituency, and I hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton guess elsewhere too, the same women who worked in East (Mr Hood). We recognise that there are ongoing the soup kitchens during the miners’ strike, and their investigations and it would be wrong to reference any daughters, are now working in the food banks. How can particular individual. It would be wrong to prejudice that happen in one of the richest countries of the world those proceedings. in 2014? Nobody would believe it was possible. The I was a plumber at the time of the strike. I was elected Government have failed to understand that if society to the council in the middle of the strike in September 1984. asks people to work with their hands in the bowels of I spent part of my time going round pro bono fixing the the earth to help to create the wealth of our country, heating and plumbing systems of striking miners. I was that society—our country—owes those people a debt of repeatedly stopped by the police, both in the process of gratitude, which we might describe as a social contract. my election and going about my lawful business. That When mines are closed or industries die, we have a exemplifies the experience of many tens of thousands of moral duty to look after the people who created the people in the mining communities during that time. wealth of our country in such difficult circumstances. There is a special dignity for those who work with The previous Government did much to honour the their hands. The Tories simply do not share that belief. idea of a social contract. We spent billions of pounds They have a different value system, one based on greed compensating tens of thousands of former miners for and hierarchy. They believe that the closed circle that miners diseases, from which many are still suffering runs our country—their spokespeople in the House—were today. In my constituency 12,500 miners or their families born to rule, and that the rest of us were born to serve. went through my office during those Labour years and That characterised their attitude during the strike. If received damages of over £100 million—in one constituency hon. Members do not believe me, they can look at the alone. The Labour Government invested £1.5 billion in Prime Minister’s comments in Glasgow in 2008, when coalfield regeneration, creating employment or training he said, effectively, that the poor are responsible for for 150,000 people. It was Labour that set up the their poverty. He should tell the mining communities Coalfields Regeneration Trust, which assisted more than that they were responsible for their poverty.Hon. Members 400,000 people in finding jobs, accessing skills, getting should look at the next leader of the Conservative education and improving their health. party, Boris Johnson, who only last year when talking Although much was done in those 15 years, the job is about inequality said in The Daily Telegraph that some not finished. There are still high levels of ill health in my people are too thick to get ahead. He should tell that to constituency and in all the coalfield areas, with 7.4% of the mining communities after their experience. people in the Yorkshire coalfield areas suffering ill The miners had a totally different set of values from health, compared with 5.6% nationally. Then, in mining those of the Tories. The Tories despised their values. areas with high levels of chronic diseases, we face the Their values were of community, and of mutual support insult of GP cuts and hospital closures. and solidarity. To this very day, there is an elemental Unemployment is still 40% higher in coalfield areas sense of equality in mining communities. The miners than the national average. Deprivation levels in coalfield did not know and never would accept the meaning of areas remain at 43%— the word “deference”, and rightly so. The age of deference should have died long ago, but the Tories hated the idea that working people—any working people, but in this Lady Hermon rose— 279 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 280

[Lady Hermon] showcase mining heritage and sustainable energy production. A bespoke green technologies enterprise Jon Trickett: I am not taking interventions. complex will provide space for companies in food security, Our society—our country—owes a debt to the miners environmental technology and green business. The and to all manual workers. Before I hand over to the Betteshanger sustainable education centre will support Minister, I want to ask her four questions. First, will she world-class research and development in environmental on behalf of her party finally express some humility and countryside programmes, climate change, sustainability, and apologise to the miners and the communities which and agro-ecology and production. The park itself, a it left devastated? Secondly, will she now authorise the gateway to east Kent, will provide lifelong learning, release of all the papers held in the Government archives shops, public spaces and events, and create 1,000 jobs. to find the truth about what happened in the mining communities, and will she authorise an independent Mr David Hamilton: Will the Minister give way? inquiry into the events that surrounded the strike? Thirdly, may we have a clear assurance that if the Penny Mordaunt: I am going to carry on. Government are still minded, even at this late stage, to That is just one example of how such communities find state aid to help the three remaining deep mine pits, are regenerating themselves—[Interruption]—although that aid will not accelerate closure but will allow the pits I am sorry that the Opposition do not want to hear it. to continue until the reserves are exhausted? Finally, The Government’s approach, in Kent as elsewhere, has will the Minister commit the Government to the full-scale been to enable local people, businesses and organisations, ongoing process of regenerating the coalfield areas? who know better than anyone else what is needed and Those people put themselves in harm’s way for the where, to make their own decisions and set their own health and wealth of our country. Do we not have a priorities. That is as true for coalfield communities as it responsibility to make sure that those communities are is anywhere else. As part of our long-term economic properly remunerated and regenerated in the future? plan to secure Britain’s future, the Government have agreed a series of growth deals with businesses and local communities across England which will support 6.49 pm local businesses to train young people, create thousands TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities of new jobs, build thousands of new homes and start and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): As ever, I hundreds of infrastructure projects. There is an opportunity have come to the Chamber this afternoon in the spirit of for local enterprise partnerships that cover former coalfield being helpful and focused on the needs and ambitions of areas to play a major role in taking regeneration forward. communities across the country. Usually, there are asks We have also created enterprise zones in former coalfield in Opposition or Adjournment debates—for more investment, areas—for example, the Sheffield city region enterprise greater freedom or support for public services and good zone, which has sites on a number of former local causes—but there has been little of that this afternoon. collieries. The Orgreave colliery and coking plant has Understandably,there is speculation about why the Opposition now been transformed into a centre for advanced have used up their time on the Floor of the House this manufacturing, while Markham Vale is benefiting from afternoon. I could continue to speculate about that, but £14.2 million of capital grant funding to develop a I would rather focus on the needs of the communities sustainable business park, which has just announced that Opposition Members are supposed to be serving. the latest new occupier, Inspirepac, which is expanding In doing so, I wish to acknowledge the important role its operation and creating hundreds of new jobs. Many that our nation’s mining heritage can play in that. Members have also mentioned the Coalfields Regeneration In that respect, this debate is timely, as this Thursday Trust, which has created and safeguarded more than sees a ceremony marking the groundbreaking Betteshanger 4,000 jobs, helped more than 125,000 gain new skills— Sustainable Park development in Kent—Betteshanger, of course, being the last pit to close in Kent. I was Helen Goodman: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The fortunate enough to visit the site only last week, to see Minister who opened the debate said that unemployment for myself how the landmark development will transform in my constituency, and in several others, had fallen. I the former Betteshanger colliery into a 21st-century have checked, and the Office for National Statistics says global laboratory for green technologies. This pioneering that in June 2010 unemployment was 4,300, while the project, backed by £40 million of investment, with latest figures are 4,400. I wanted to give the Minister the £11 million of public sector funding, including £2.5 million opportunity to correct himself at the Dispatch Box. from the Government’s coastal communities fund, has helped to trigger £29 million of private investment. Mr Speaker: The point is on the record, but that is Betteshanger Sustainable Park is a major shot in the not a matter for the Chair. The Minister will respond if arm for east Kent. It will celebrate Kent’s coal mining she chooses to do so, and not if she chooses not to. heritage, which is juxtaposed with sustainable technologies in a world-class, zero-carbon building. It will deliver Penny Mordaunt: Not much has been said by Labour new jobs and regeneration to the whole area, putting Members about the issues of concern to all our constituents, the local community right at the heart of the development so I am happy to provide some balance. I can understand and attracting significant private sector support. The Labour Members not wanting to talk about growth or development will also provide improved access to cycling job creation in their own constituencies, but I had and outdoor pursuits—important facilities for local people. thought that at the very least they might wish to address The centre, scheduled to open in spring 2016, will some of the outstanding issues. Today, for example, create a new national eco-tourism visitor destination, there has been some sad news that a manufacturing attracting more than 1 million visitors a year. It will plant in Barnsley has announced that it is going to 281 Coalfield Communities28 OCTOBER 2014 Coalfield Communities 282 close, with the loss of 120 jobs. I am pleased to see that physical regeneration of former coalfield sites. This those whose jobs are at risk are being properly supported, work is nearing completion, and the associated land but I was surprised not to hear about that in the assets are expected to form part of the HCA’s up and opening speech of the hon. Member for Barnsley East coming programme to dispose of public sector land. (Michael Dugher). The HCA has invested about £660 million in coalfield As I say, I can understand the Opposition not wanting areas during the life of the coalfields programme. The to talk about growth and jobs, but I would have thought DCLG’s coalfields funds, the coalfields enterprise fund that they would want to discuss the remaining challenges. and the coalfields growth fund have also been investing That is our focus. It is we who are focused on getting in innovative small and medium-sized enterprises in people back into work and supporting businesses and deprived former coalfield areas. This will continue until helping communities to regenerate themselves and achieve 2016, when the investment phase is due to end. Other their ambitions. Unfortunately, Labour seems to have sources of investment for SMEs across the board are different priorities. now available, and these funds have proved to be much more effective than the coalfield fundings, being directed The contributions we have heard this afternoon have through local enterprise partnerships. Much has been fallen firmly into two camps. From those on the Opposition achieved, but there is obviously much more to do. Benches, we have heard speeches that have made the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) and his hybrid In closing, I will say sorry. I am sorry that Her car look positively “with it”; speeches that have been Majesty’s Opposition are stuck in the 1970s. Their focused on the past or on smearing members of the constituents and their businesses are firmly in 2014, and upper House. There was not a pipsqueak from the hon. I hope that for their sake, their Labour representatives Members for North West Durham (Pat Glass) or join them in the 21st century some time soon. for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) about the achievements of Question put and agreed to. businesses in their constituencies and how they are Resolved, reinventing themselves in rail manufacturing, to give That this House acknowledges the economic legacy of the pit just one example. No Labour Member has sought to closure programme in coalfield communities across the United explain this afternoon why they did not reverse any of Kingdom; notes that the recent release of the relevant 1984 the trade union reforms they have so vilified today, or Cabinet papers showed that the Government at the time misled the public about the extent of its pit closure plans and sought to why in its 13 years in government, Labour did not influence police tactics; recognises the regeneration of former tackle any of the issues Labour Members have raised coalfield areas over the last fifteen years, the good work of today. organisations such as the Coalfield Regeneration Trust, and the By contrast, contributions from my hon. Friends the largest industrial injury settlement in legal history secured by the Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), for Warrington previous Government for former miners suffering from bronchitis and emphysema; further recognises the ongoing problems highlighted South (David Mowat), for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) and recently by the report produced by Sheffield Hallam University for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) have been focused on The State of the Coalfields, which revealed that there are still on the future, on growth, job creation and helping their significant problems for the majority of Britain’s coalfield communities, communities to achieve their ambitions. such as fewer jobs, lower business formation rates, higher Let me put on record the achievements of the Coalfields unemployment rates, more people with serious health issues, higher numbers in receipt of welfare benefits and a struggling Regeneration Trust, which now has a sustainable future, voluntary and community sector; and therefore calls for the after its investment in property and other assets. There continued regeneration and much needed support for coalfield is also the work of the Homes and Communities Agency’s communities as part of a wider programme to boost growth in coalfields programme, which was due to progress the Britain’s regions. 283 28 OCTOBER 2014 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) 284

A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) disruption of regular roadworks that are intended to improve the situation. At this very moment, work is Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House taking place from the Dodwells roundabout to the —(Harriett Baldwin.) do now adjourn. Royal Red Gate junction, where the A5 meets the A444. Just tonight, I was interviewed on BBC Radio Coventry Mr Speaker: When Members have toddled out of the and Warwickshire about the issue, along with a very Chamber, speedily and quietly, Mr Marcus Jones can disgruntled lady who was less than happy about the rise to his feet to orate. current disruption. I think that that disruption is extremely unfortunate, but it is quite necessary. Much of the work 7pm that is being undertaken between the Royal Red Gate Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I am delighted and Higham lane junctions is facilitating the new Motor to have been able to secure a debate about one of the Industry Research Association technology park, which busiest and most congested parts of our strategic road is creating more than 2,000 new jobs. As well as the new network. I am pleased to see that my hon. Friend the jobs, that part of the route will have a very positive Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) is present—he, effect on the local area because it is being turned into too, has a constituency interest in this busy stretch of dual carriageway. Inevitably, that progress will put greater the A5—and I thank my right hon. Friend the Minister stress on the Longshoot junction and the Dodwells of State for his time, and for the consideration that I roundabout east of MIRA, but that will largely be hope he will give to the debate. mitigated by the current pinch-point scheme now under Let me explain why I am concerned about this stretch construction. The changes now taking place on the A5 of the A5, and why I believe that there needs to be a will have a positive effect and there will be gain for the fundamental rethink about the future of that busy pain that my constituents and the many users of this highway for the sake of my constituents who live on the busy route are experiencing. route, and for the sake of economic growth in the west I am also convinced, however, that we need a longer-term and east midlands corridor. solution and we must seek it now. We cannot wait five, 10, 15 or 20 years before we consider the future. That The A5, or Watling street, which marks the northern would not be right for my constituents or the wider west boundary of my constituency, was built by the Romans, and east midlands economy. who originally built the road from Londinium to Deva—or London to Chester, as we know them today. I have not A substantial amount of development is planned established the exact date when Watling street was built, along the A5 corridor both in my constituency and in but the fact that the Romans withdrew from Britain in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth. As 410 AD gives us a slight clue as to the longevity of the my constituents know, I do not agree with all of the route. I am certain that the sheer volume of traffic that development plans being promoted by the local planning would use Watling street in the 21st Century was never authority in my constituency. However, it appears from envisaged, even once the ownership of cars became the approach it is taking that these developments will go commonplace after the second world war. That is why ahead whether I or my constituents like them or not. so many other sections of the busy road, which now We must therefore think about substantive solutions for stretches from London to Holyhead, have been substantially this section of the A5 to deal with the future issues. changed to reflect the volume of vehicles that use it. My right hon. Friend the Minister will also be aware Today, the A5 between junction 10 of the M42 and of the significant partnership-working currently taking junction 1 of the M69 is one of the most congested place on the issue between the Highways Agency, the routes on the strategic road network, particularly between Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership, the Longshoot junction and the Dodwells roundabout. the Leicester and Leicestershire LEP,Warwickshire county That section is considered to be the 15th most congested council, Leicestershire county council, and the Nuneaton section of road on the network. Many of my constituents and Bedworth, Hinckley and Bosworth and North live along Watling Street and on feeder roads such as Warwickshire borough councils. The Minister will know the Longshoot, Higham lane, Weddington road and that those agencies have jointly started to conduct some Woodford lane. They live every day with the imposition very embryonic work on a strategic enhancement of of queuing traffic, high levels of noise and massive this section of the A5. They are looking at the issues pollution. and constraints that affect that busy section of highway. The pressure on the route is often compounded when That work has been conducted by the partnership, traffic shifts from the M6 to the A5. There are regular which has been formed because there is a strong business closures on the M6. As my right hon. Friend knows, I case for a long-term solution to the problems we face on have expressed concern in the House before about the that section of highway. It is thought that a long-term safety of junctions 1 to 4 on the M6, where there are solution for that section of the A5 could bring savings regular accidents. My constituents are affected by the of £680 million through better travel times, lower vehicle way in which the traffic shifts from the motorway operating costs and a reduction in the accident rate on through my constituency to the A5 in order to reach the what is a busy stretch of road. That proposal aligns M42 and the M69. You probably think that that is a with the strategic growth aspirations of both the public subject for a debate on another day, Mr Deputy Speaker, sector and the private sector in the area. This evening I but I am sure that my right hon. Friend will give my am asking the Minister to look at the detail of the comments some consideration tonight. embryonic work that has already been conducted and that I am sure his Department has seen. Over the decades, this section of the A5 has undergone numerous redesigns to deal with safety issues and to Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): My hon. Friend is mitigate the growing number of vehicles on our roads. making a very strong case for the A5, which is an For many years my constituents have suffered from the important route from the M1 at junction 18 to the 285 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69)28 OCTOBER 2014 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) 286 north-west, avoiding the M6. I wonder whether we A47. However, the one does not run above the other. might persuade the Minister to look at the southern Both are confined into the space of a narrow highway part of the A5 as well, from the M69 down to the M1. the width of an old-fashioned turnpike. There will be very substantial housing and commercial My hon. Friend has talked about the importance of development at the junction 18 end, and we could use the road generally. I should like to alert the Minister that as an opportunity to improve that thoroughfare. to a specific problem that is affecting my constituency at the crossing of the A444 and the A5 at the Royal Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend, who represents Red Gate junction. I raise the matter because it reflects Rugby. I completely agree with his request in relation to badly on the organisations concerned, including the the section further down the A5, which can only help Government, the Highways Agency, the county council the situation further up the A5, to the benefit of my and Hinckley and Bosworth borough council, none of constituents and the constituents of my hon. Friend the which has properly consulted Witherley parish council Member for Bosworth. I would also say in that regard about the matter. that the work currently going on at the Catthorpe I should like to say a few words about parish councils. interchange, where the M6 meets the M1-A14, will have The people representing their residents on parish councils an extremely positive effect for our constituents in are the salt of the earth. They are often very clever addressing, hopefully, some of the issues—not all, but people such as the chair of Witherley parish council, some—that I referred to earlier: the A5 and Nuneaton who was the head of government and industry affairs at get so clogged with traffic due to accidents on the M6. East Midlands airport. We have in this instance a complete This evening, I am asking the Minister to speak to my failure of communication, in that the local people are right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Transport under the strong impression that they are not being and the Chancellor about this issue, which is a matter of properly consulted. I ask the Minister to ensure that, major concern for my constituents and many other when the roundabout at the Royal Red Gate junction is people living in the region. He will know that the developed, clear signage is put in place to divert the embryonic work has been carried out. I am now looking long-distance traffic off on to the M42 and well away for a sympathetic ear in the hope that he will put from the A5. Also, we do not want the problem of rat forward my argument that funding for a further in-depth runs being blocked, or unblocked, without consultation. investigation and feasibility study of this busy stretch of I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for the strategic road network should be made available. Nuneaton for raising this important matter, and I look The investigation needs to include all stakeholders, forward—as I am sure he does—to hearing the Minister’s particularly the people who live on and are affected by reply. the current route. I know how diligent the Minister is. He has helped me 7.14 pm personally with other issues in my constituency, including The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John the fallout following the closure of Daw Mill colliery. I Hayes): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member remember the assistance that he gave me at that time, for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) on securing this debate on and I am confident that he will try to help in whatever the A5 trunk road between the M42, junction 10 and way he can now. We have an autumn statement coming the M69, junction 2. As has been said, he has been a up, and I am sure that he will make a strong case to the tireless campaigner on the need for future investment in Secretary of State and the Chancellor so that we can this road, and I recognise his continuing courageous look at the long-term future of this busy section of the determination in that respect. He has raised this issue A5, which needs urgent consideration. I hope that the on behalf of his constituents, local businesses and the points that I have put on record tonight will go some local economy. C.S Lewis said that way to enabling the case to go forward, so that we can “courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every do the right thing for my constituents. That has not virtue at the testing point”. been achieved under numerous Governments over the My hon. Friend’s courage has been in evidence once decades, and my constituents have had to put up with again tonight in raising these matters. absolute mayhem on that section of this busy route. This Government recognise the crucial role that transport infrastructure plays in facilitating growth across the 7.11 pm country and creating a more balanced economy, but that alone would not be justification, of itself; I take the David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): I am grateful to view, and have increasingly evangelised it in the Department my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) and more widely, that improving transport is also about for sharing the debate with me. He has done a great job well-being, communal opportunity, individual chances in representing Nuneaton in the House since his election. to gain employment and new experiences, and good He has been a credit to his constituents and it has civil society. I see transport and communications in that always been a pleasure to work with him. broader perspective, which I know my hon. Friend The problem with this section of the A5 is a problem shares. In connecting communities and in enabling people of success as much as of failure. The huge expansion of to access jobs, services and leisure, transport can play a MIRA as well as of the business park that was agreed vital role in regenerative efforts. That is why we have by my right hon. Friend the Minister’s coalition colleagues, been determined to reverse the effects of the previous has created thousands of jobs. However, as my hon. Administration’s neglect by securing significant levels Friend the Member for Nuneaton said, this is a unique of investment in our strategic road network. stretch of road. Indeed, the section to which he referred, All Governments make mistakes and all Governments between Dodwells bridge and the Longshoot, actually do things well. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I like consists of two roads: the A5 Watling street and the to be generous in these matters, but one of the previous 287 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69)28 OCTOBER 2014 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) 288

[Mr John Hayes] through North Warwickshire. The route is important for infrastructure and for my constituents. I urge the regime’s mistakes was to allow their approach to roads Minister to listen to what he says. to be driven by the piecemeal, the ad hoc and the reactive. By contrast, this Government are taking a Mr Hayes: My hon. Friend follows in the tradition of strategic, long-term, lateral view of the importance of his predecessor, Sir Robert Peel, who also represented investing in roads, which is why we have committed Tamworth, in his determination to do what is right for five-year funding to strategic road investment. Hon. those whom he serves. I prefer to be inspired by Disraeli, Members will know that the detail of that investment in as perhaps my hon. Friend does too. None the less, that strategic transport infrastructure was set out by the is an important tradition, and he makes, as always, a Chancellor in last year’s spending review statement. powerful argument in this Chamber. The Treasury Command Paper “Investing in Britain’s The Government already recognise the importance of future” set out that this Government will invest more improving the A5. The Highways Agency pinch point than £28 billion in enhancements and maintenance of scheme for the M42 junction 10, which was completed both national and local roads over the period up to earlier this year, along with the Highways Agency pinch 2020-21. That long-term vision, backed by funding, will point scheme for the A5-A47 Longshoot and Dodwells build consistency and coherence into the approach we junctions, which has recently started on site, are due to take to road development. It means that existing roads be completed by March 2015. will be improved—we are resurfacing about 80% of the nation’s roads— and we will invest £10.7 billion in In addition, the MIRA enterprise zone, which is major national road projects, as well as £6 billion in the located adjacent to the A5 in Hinckley, was successful maintenance of strategic roads. in securing regional growth funding with which it is providing A5 improvements. Those improvements include On the future investment in the strategic network, my increasing the capacity at the A444 Redgate junction as hon. Friend will be aware that the Highways Agency is well as improving the access arrangements to the site currently conducting its route strategy process. Route itself. Those works are currently on site and are expected strategies will provide a smarter approach to investment to be completed by March 2015. planning across the network, through greater collaboration with local stakeholders to determine the nature, need Overall, these schemes show Government investment and timing of those investments. The process has been of around £15 million into improving this section of hallmarked by two stages, the first of which has been the A5. However, I recognise that my hon. Friend the completed. It identified performance issues on routes, Member for Nuneaton is concerned that the scale and future challenges and growth opportunities, taking full potential economic and housing growth along the corridor account of local priorities and aspirations, with the will place increasing pressure on the A5 and that—he finalised evidence made available on 23 April. The has made the case tonight—further investment in the second stage is well under way; utilising the evidence, route is necessary. To that end I commend the efforts we are establishing outline operational and investment made by— priorities for all routes on the strategic road network, and we will take forward a programme of work to Mr Jones: Will my right hon. Friend give way? identify indicative solutions, which will cover operational, maintenance and, if appropriate, road improvement Mr Hayes: Let me finish what I was saying, as I am schemes to inform future investment plans. about to commend my hon. Friend and I know that he would not want to miss that. Mark Pawsey: Will the Minister acknowledge the I was about to say that I commend the efforts made importance of the improvement of such roads to the to date by my hon. Friend, along with the relevant local road haulage industry—many of its firms are based in stakeholders, to engage with the Highways Agency through my constituency—and the important part that logistics its route strategy process. I recognise that concerns over plays in our national economy? the capacity of the A5 were raised by a number of local stakeholders during the Highways Agency’s route strategy Mr Hayes: Indeed, and it was for that very reason stakeholder event, with a particular reference to the that I met the representative body of road hauliers just notable economic and housing development planned last week, in the spirit that my hon. Friend personifies. along the corridor. In congratulating and applauding the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton, I must also pay Mr Jones: I thank my right hon. Friend for his kind tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Rugby words, which will, I am sure, be matched with action by (Mark Pawsey) and for Bosworth (David Tredinnick), him to support my constituents in relation to this important who have been tireless campaigners in the defence of route. May I also impress on him the importance of and, moreover, in their aspirations for their constituents. consultation with the public in relation to any changes They have all taken a particular interest in the A5. to the A5? Over many years, there have been lots of different reconfigurations, particularly at the Redgate Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I am obliged and Longshoot junctions, on which, unfortunately, my to my right hon. Friend for giving way. May I say that, constituents have not been consulted. Many think that, as a Transport Minister, he is also the people’s friend? as a result, they have not seen the best outcomes. In support of my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), may I pray in aid the A5, which is a very Mr Hayes: At this point, to the distress of my officials important route that my constituents use from the exit no doubt, I will detach myself from the prepared brief of the M42? One part of that exit, which is not dualled, and say two things. First, if that is the case, then I will is the exit going towards my hon. Friend’s constituency give this guarantee to the House tonight from this 289 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69)28 OCTOBER 2014 A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) 290

Dispatch Box that we will improve the way in which we study work for such a solution to the A5 will be included engage with local stakeholders to ensure that any omission in the upcoming roads investment strategy, but I will or error is not completed. Secondly, as my hon. Friend guarantee this evening that it will be actively considered, mentioned that the A5 was a Roman road, I will draw along with other proposals for the strategic network, on G.K. Chesterton’s poem, “The Rolling English Road”. and mindful of the remarks of my hon. Friend and I am inspired by the following words. Chesterton talked other hon. Members who have fought this brave campaign, about walking with I will reinforce those concerns when I return to the “clearer eyes and ears this path that wandereth.” Department tomorrow morning. I assure my hon. Friend that with that clear sight, this I want to say a particular word to my hon. Friend the listening Minister in this listening Government will Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick), because he ensure once again that local people’s views are taken has raised some specific doubts about some of the road fully into account. closures that have taken place. This is not the first time that he has raised them in the House. Again, his diligence David Tredinnick rose— speaks for itself. I want to give him this assurance. I understand that the road closures in their current format Mr Hayes: I will give way briefly to my hon. Friend, meet safety and access requirements and though the because I want to then say some other exciting and disruption is significant for some, I know he welcomes exhilarating things. growth across the network. As a result of his intervention tonight, I will ask the Department to look again at the David Tredinnick: I am not seeking a commendation impact of those closures, what more the Highway Agency such as that given to my hon. Friend the Member for can do to make sure they are as minimal as they can be, Nuneaton. and to take any further measures to ease problems that There has been poor consultation on the Redgate may arise from that disruption. junction. If the Minister is going to put up barriers on I said at the outset of the debate that the hon. these major roads, they will have to be concrete to make Member for Nuneaton has done the House a service. sure that no one can break through them when they are It may be unconventional, but I take the view that not supposed to. Government policy should be framed and shaped through debates such as this. It is not sufficient for a Minister to Mr Hayes: I am mindful of what my hon. Friend says stand here and not respond to hon. Members’ concerns, and I want to pay particular attention to those remarks on whatever side of the Chamber they sit. I will ensure and his earlier remarks if I have time in a few moments. that in all the work we do as a Government, and our He raised some important concerns that are particular agencies do on our behalf, the considerations of hon. but deserve full consideration. Members, representing and articulating as they do the concerns of the people they serve, are at the very heart As I say, I commend the partnership working between of what the Government do. local authorities along the corridor, with the relevant Government departments, including the Highways Agency, C. S. Lewis also said: and the efforts that have been undertaken recently to “You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new carry out an initial study of the potential substantive dream.” options for the route. My hon. Friend the Member for I know that my hon. Friend’s goal, and that of other Nuneaton paid attention to that in his remarks. Although hon. Members, is that the A5 serves its purpose in this is only an initial step, as he acknowledged, I understand delivering the well-being that I described and fuelling that the embryonic work indicates that a very significant the economic growth that we all seek. This debate has scheme to improve the full length of the route between taken that dream one step further. the M42 and the M69 to dual carriageway standard Question put and agreed to. may be an appropriate long-term option. This proposal is being considered by the Highways Agency through the route strategy process. At this stage 7.29 pm I cannot guarantee that funding further to progress the House adjourned.

1WH 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 2WH Services) that in most cases is not actually required; many also Westminster Hall charge an administration fee, which is not quoted until it is too late to back out of the transaction. Tuesday 28 October 2014 Perhaps most worrying of all, as my hon. Friend said, is the potential for identity theft. The sites collect all sorts of personal data. No one really knows what [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] they do with the information, but there is the potential to sell it to criminal gangs. Copycat Websites (Government Services) In my constituency a gentlemen called Mr Tom Williams Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting was recently tricked into paying an extra £40 for a tax be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) disc. Like many people across the country who have been caught out by such websites, Mr Williams looked at the design of the site, which looked like an official 9.30 am Government site. It ranked highly on search engines, Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): People’s experience which also suggested that it was an official Government of the internet is generally good. Whether for skyping site, and it seemed to be a professional and effective friends and relatives, ordering groceries online or even service. Only later did Mr Williams realise that he had starting a business, the internet has changed the world paid significantly more than he needed to for his tax beyond all recognition. Like many, I am pleased that disc. His case is not an isolated incident. older people, who may have viewed computers with suspicion in the past, have embraced the internet positively. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I Sadly, although the internet provides great opportunities, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. it also presents threats. One is copycat websites for I have had constituents caught by precisely the same Government services, which are part of a growing industry DVLA scam. Like him, I have been frustrated by the that exists purely to trick the public out of their hard-earned slow pace of change and the almost complacent attitude money. That industry thrives by using underhand methods of the Office of Fair Trading to the implications of this to fool people into paying way over the odds for issue. Government services. In many cases, the victims are too embarrassed to report being ripped off, or simply do Chris Evans: I absolutely agree. The worst aspect of not know where to go to complain. the DVLA scam is that people need a tax disc. It worries Research by Which? has revealed that more and more me that, as we move away from the traditional tax disc of its readers are being exposed to such websites each to a system of paying by direct debit, people could year. The sites exist for virtually anything, including perhaps be scammed monthly, and pay over the odds paying taxes, obtaining driving licences, changing one’s every single month, because websites will be getting name, applying for passports and birth certificates and residual income every time. even registering a bereavement. People are being tricked Research conducted by Ipsos MORI for the Advertising into paying up to £1,000 more than they should for such Standards Agency found that the features that are important services. to people in deciding whether a site is official include the general design, the look and feel, the text describing Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Does my hon. the service and—perhaps most tellingly—the presence Friend agree that the issue is not only that people are of a professional logo. Most, if not all, copycat websites being duped into paying over the odds for Government are designed to look as much as possible like Government services but that they are sharing personal information sites. They use text that describes services that sound that should be secure? When renewing her driving licence, official and many have logos that make them look like an 82-year-old constituent of mine thought that a company they are representing the Government. called Net-secure was the payment arm of the Driver On Sunday I checked one such site, europeanhealthcard. and Vehicle Licensing Agency. Her bank cancelled her org.uk. It carries a picture of a European health insurance payment to that company, but months later she found a card front and centre, and describes itself as “a registered similar payment had been taken from her by a company institution” that guarantees with a similar name. We should bear in mind that aspect as well. “genuine service and complete secrecy about your personal information”. Chris Evans: I agree with my hon. Friend. I raised the It promises matter with the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s “a full and comprehensive review of your application and forwarding questions last Wednesday. What tends to happen is that within the mentioned time-period” people’s personal information is sold to criminal gangs, and states that it will which then use it for further scams and to rip people off. “make sure that all your details are filled in properly, without any Often, as we know, the services I have mentioned are typographical mistakes” free through official channels. I welcome the extra funding for the National Trading Standards Board that was and ensure that announced recently, but I have to say that action on the “all the necessary information is presented in the application issue has to date been painfully slow. Copycat websites form for a speedy delivery.” are taking money, through unfair means, from every However, hidden in the terms and conditions of the site, MP’s constituents, yet in most cases the companies that it is made clear that the company is unable to do trick people are doing so legally. It is not just that the anything to ensure a “speedy delivery” and that it will sites are able to charge a reviewing and forwarding fee not accept any liability if data are spoiled. 3WH Copycat Websites (Government 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 4WH Services) Services) [Chris Evans] Earlier this year, amendment 69 to the Consumer Rights Bill would have made it unfair behaviour for a In effect, the company promises a service that it is consumer to be mis-sold a service on what they believed unable to deliver. It promises to help with people’s was an official site. At the time, the Government argued applications and to keep their data safe, but its terms that the amendment was not necessary—that they were and conditions make it clear that none of that is guaranteed. working with search engines and regulatory agencies Even in the event that personal health information is and that that would stop misleading websites. Since lost or misplaced, the company claims that it has absolutely then, five people have been arrested in connection with no liability. It is fair to say that if a website charges for a copycat websites, and 25 sites have been shut down. free Government service, such as the European health Those figures are woefully low. insurance card, but does not guarantee anything it In January this year, The Mail on Sunday reported claims to be able to do, it is not offering a fair price. that a trading standards investigation and enforcement That site is just one example of websites designed to manager had told it that it was “extremely difficult” for have the look and feel of Government sites; they promise trading standards to take action against most copycat a professional, effective service for a fair price but, when websites. The investigation found that many people who looked into, provide anything but that. ran copycat websites used multiple addresses and registered I could give examples of many more websites that act offices to confound trading standards. Even when the in that manner and make every effort allowed within the people behind schemes are identified and caught, most law to trick people out of money. What is more telling is are found to have done nothing against the law. the silence of such companies. Many do not have contact It is time for the Government to look again at the numbers available online and are registered to post legislation on copycat websites. Although trading standards office boxes. As for those who do list contact numbers, staff are working to the best of their capacity to tackle my staff have contacted them but so far have faced a these websites, they are dealing with a fast-moving wall of silence, and have been unable to speak to anyone world, and once one website is shut down, another is set involved with corporate affairs. They have never been up almost immediately under another name. While allowed past the operator. That is not just our experience. progress is slow, the least digitally engaged—often older When newspapers have launched investigations, they and more vulnerable people—are being tricked into have found it impossible to get in contact with the spending more of their hard-earned money than necessary. operators of copycat websites. It seems that, when faced That cannot be allowed to continue. with scrutiny, the companies that run such sites shut I would like to see a three-pronged attack on copycat them down. I invite anyone running any of those companies websites. First, there should be prevention. Transport who wishes to defend themselves to get in contact with for London already writes to anyone who has paid the me personally. I am more than happy to hear what they congestion charge through a third-party website informing have to say. them that they have done so, and it is also consulting on We need concrete action to tackle copycat websites, a proposal to ban payment of the congestion charge to deal not just with their presence online but with the through such websites. That is a good idea, which the companies and people behind them. Since receiving Government should take on board. In addition, when extra funding six months ago, Trading Standards has someone is reminded by letter that they need to renew taken action against a small number of copycat websites their TV licence or car tax, they should be alerted to the and has posted a new web page with guidance. But existence of copycat websites and directed to sites with Ipsos MORI research for the Advertising Standards addresses that end in .gov.uk. Agency has shown that people with the lowest levels of Secondly, there should be regulation. When people online literacy are the most at risk of being tricked by are stung by copycat websites, there should be only one the sites. An online guide will do little to help those agency that they can complain to. At the moment, it can people avoid paying over the odds for Government be one of three: the Advertising Standards Authority, services. trading standards or the Office of Fair Trading. There should one number and one website. I welcome the decision by Google, working in conjunction Thirdly, there should be legislation. The Government with the Government, not to take advertising from a should look again at the Consumer Rights Bill and the website once it has been identified as a copycat. That is amendment that I mentioned. Where someone believes a step in the right direction, as most of the websites pay that they are using an official website, but they are being for adverts that are often placed above the official tricked, there should be some remedy in law and some Government website in search results. However, it takes way for them to be compensated for their loss. time to work out whether sites paying for such adverts are indeed copycat websites. As we know, the internet Much has been done in this area, but there is still moves far more quickly than Government or, indeed, much more to do. I hope that the Minister will look society. favourably on these proposals and finally put a stop to people being ripped off online. Although the regulatory agencies try to keep people safe from copycat websites, their actions are limited by 9.42 am the law. I accept that no regulation should make it difficult for legitimate companies to operate, but can Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): anyone really claim that the tactics pursued by copycat It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, websites are anything less than unfair? I fear we are Mr Gray, and I apologise for my tardy entry. heading towards the same situation as we faced with I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn nuisance calls, when it took years for relevant legislation (Chris Evans) on securing this important debate, and to be updated. on the clarity with which he described the harm that 5WH Copycat Websites (Government 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 6WH Services) Services) copycat websites inflict on many of our constituents. As Will the Government support Opposition amendments he indicated, they are not always illegal, but they often on this issue to the Consumer Rights Bill when they are trick people into paying extra for services provided re-tabled in the Lords later this year, or will we have more cheaply or free of charge through official Government more weasel words from Ministers? channels. When I asked about this issue in a written question in There are, of course, legitimate third-party services January, the Treasury said that it took no interest in the that help people to make transactions with the Government, use of third-party websites, and that it responded on a and we are not here to criticise, for example, the Post case-by-case basis. It apparently said that because the Office check and send service for passports, or accounting Cabinet Office is leading a cross-Government initiative firms that check people’s tax returns before they submit on the issue. The Minister is not from the Cabinet them, because such services really do add value. However, Office, but can he update us on that initiative? Can he at there are plenty of websites that do nothing other than least tell us what it is called and what it has achieved so charge a fee for the regular application or service. As I far? shall explain, the people who tend to use Government Ministers need to ensure that individuals, businesses, services most are often those who are least digitally industry and the public sector are protected as much as literate. possible from digital crime and fraud. Part of that is Many Government services are also offered offline, about ensuring that people have the skills to protect but it is clear that many will be offered only online in themselves and to be confident online. However, the future. That has clear benefits for the Government and Government have a lamentable record on digital inclusion the people and businesses using those services, but like and skills. Their own digital inclusion strategy, which other Members here, I have been contacted by constituents took four years to produce, has as its premise that 10% who have fallen foul of copycat websites, and the Minister of people will be left behind by technology. I would not must set out for us what he will do to address the issue. say that it was a good start for an inclusion strategy to exclude one in 10 people. Will the Minister therefore To give one example, a man in my constituency, who explain his view of digital inclusion as one way to was actually comfortable using technology and the internet, address the harm caused by copycat websites? renewed a tax disc online. He used what he thought was an official website and was charged an extra fee. He was Right now, as my hon. Friend so elegantly described, not a vulnerable person—he was confident about using many people are experiencing what I call digital discomfort: the internet and digital public services—but he was the sense that the security services know whom we are scammed by this copycat website. calling and that Amazon is telling us what we should be buying; concern that online porn is too accessible to our Technology is transforming our lives and will continue children; or the nagging doubt that the website on to do so for many years to come. It is transforming which we renew our passport may not be the Government Government services and the way they are delivered. It website that we think it is—the one we trust. Not has the potential to not only save money, but empower enough is being done across the board to protect and people. As a country, we are not even beginning to reap include the most vulnerable. If we do not act quickly to the positive benefits that such changes can bring. tackle problems such as copycat websites, we risk Technology, and the internet in particular, have often undermining trust in digital government specifically, been hailed as forces for freedom, democracy and and technology more generally. As we know, trust is accountability. As someone who worked as an engineer hard to gain and easy to lose. There is a general issue in technology for two decades before coming to this about trust in digital services, which is why we must place, I have spent my life championing the ability of work hard to give the public the confidence to put their technology to transform our society for the better, as we trust in the digital services offered by Government. all want it to. However, technology can also provoke fears and suspicion, particularly among certain groups, As my hon. Friend mentioned, Ministers announced and copycat websites are one of a growing number of over the weekend that they would finally take action on wider security and consumer rights concerns. nuisance calls. That is a welcome move after years of dithering. It should not have taken so long, or taken so Digital government is a relatively new development much pressure from Members, to get the Government in the long history of governance, but the Government to move on that. None of us advocates knee-jerk reactions, have known about the growing problem of copycat but copycat websites have long been a growing scam, websites for some time. As my hon. Friend said, the and I feel that the Minister should now be prepared and Opposition tabled an amendment during the passage of able to set out a concrete plan of action. the Consumer Rights Bill earlier this year specifically to allow us to look at the sources of mass applications and Some 80% of Government interactions with the public block websites not providing an actual service. The take place with the bottom 25% of society, but only a amendment was withdrawn on the understanding that quarter of people living in deprived areas have used a Ministers were beavering away behind the scenes and Government online service or website in the past year, that action would be forthcoming. However, seven months compared to 55% nationally. There are still 5 million have passed, and the only discernible action I have seen households that have no access to the internet because is a trading standards press release warning people to either they do not want it or cannot get it. Millions more do not feel confident using it, for one reason or “Wise up to the web”. another, be it security fears or a lack of digital literacy. When the Minister responds, will he tell us what work My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn mentioned has been going on since the debate on that amendment, research by Ipsos MORI for the Advertising Standards what is planned and what the timeline is, because I am Authority, which found that those who were less confident not convinced that Ministers are doing enough to protect online or had low digital literacy were more likely to go citizens and businesses, or to help them protect themselves? on to or use copycat websites. That may seem obvious, 7WH Copycat Websites (Government 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 8WH Services) Services) [Chi Onwurah] cases involving passports and driving licences. It was not then formally part of my portfolio, but as my role but it is an important point. There is a wider issue of has expanded, I have had more opportunity to influence digital inclusion that I am afraid the Government do the direction of policy. I am pleased to say that I think not take seriously enough. We have some excellent we are making progress, although I noted that the tone digital services. The DVLA is often praised, and the of the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central Government Digital Service’s award-winning gov.uk website suggested that more progress could and should be made. recently celebrated its 1 billionth hit. To start with my glass half full, I will talk about the Further down the track, more and more services will success of the Government’s vision for digital by default be delivered digitally. Universal credit is one. A copycat services, which is driven by a desire to give the public website for a tax disc is a problem, but copycat websites the kind of Government services that they expect. Those for universal credit—should it ever be launched—will are services that are simple, fast and clear, and that can be, by an order of magnitude, a bigger problem for be accessed easily at times and in ways that suit people. many of the poorer and least privileged among us, as There has been a step change thanks to the use of well as for the Government. digital services that are now built more and more around I am sure that the Minister will talk a lot about the needs of users, not the Government. The Government cross-departmental working and Cabinet Office initiatives. Digital Service is an unequivocal success story of the I know that it is outside his portfolio, but can he tell us present Government that needs to be talked about what is going on with local government? Research in more, and I hope that whoever takes over—us or them, support of the review of digital government that will or anyone—will continue to build on that effective soon report to the Labour party has found that local work. government technology varies considerably. Among local The use of the Government Digital Service has the authorities, where so many public services are delivered happy benefit that it saves money. Last year we saved and where many citizens get most of their experience of more than £200 million on digital and technology-related Government, there are pockets of greatness but a vastly expenditure as part of the overall £14 billion of efficiency disparate set of solutions and services. In my constituency, savings achieved across the Government as a whole, and Newcastle council’s trading standards service produces that was all achieved while continuing to drive improvements a newsletter informing local groups of the latest scams, in how people access information and services. That is a including copycat websites, and things to look out for. clear example of how to get more for less. If we can prevent some scams of that kind at source, There is much to be celebrated in the progress we are local trading standards offices such as Newcastle’s, which making, and much of that is down to the head of the is under incredible financial pressure, will be freed to Government Digital Service, the remarkable Mike Bracken. concentrate on other issues. There are now 14 new, transformed, digital services Research by my office on police capability found that being used by the public, and they comply with a police practices and resources for cybercrime and fraud stretching Government service standard. Their success vary greatly across the country. Again, that issue is is evident. For example, more than half of applications outside the Minister’s portfolio, but in his discussions for carer’s allowance now come via the new digital with colleagues has he made an assessment of the scale channel. Digital can act as a catalyst for change. However, of the problem and the resources needed to respond, we recognise that high levels of digital take-up will be specifically within police forces? On a similar topic, has achieved only if the public feel confident about using the Minister had any information from the Government Government services online. As the hon. Member for Digital Service on the scale of the problem and of the Islwyn and others pointed out, the problem of misleading response required, and the resources it is putting towards third-party websites can dent that confidence. addressing it? Let me be clear: sites that try to palm themselves off Technology offers us an unprecedented opportunity as legitimate Government services need to be stopped. I to transform public service delivery. We must ensure am sure that that is something on which we all agree. that that opportunity is not undermined; we cannot Abuse involving such services can take a range of forms, afford to underestimate the possibility. Politicians must all of which can have a negative impact, including champion the positive power of technology and we brand abuse, which is the misuse of Government logos must not allow emerging threats to stifle the huge to imply affiliation with or endorsement by the Government. opportunities that it offers us, socially, culturally and Phishing—that is with the letters “p” and “h”, Mr Gray, economically. in case you were thinking of fishing, at which you are a dab hand—is the practice by which unscrupulous people 9.56 am try to acquire personal information, such as user names, The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy passwords and credit card details, by masquerading as a (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a pleasure to serve under your trustworthy entity. Scamming websites are third-party chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member sites that levy charges for access to Government services for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing the debate, and I and claim to provide additional services that actually thank the hon. Members for Banff and Buchan offer little or no value. (Dr Whiteford) and for Newport East (Jessica Morden), and the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Dr Whiteford: The Minister makes an important Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), for their point, but my correspondence with Government agencies contributions. indicates that those copycat websites are operating within I share the anger and frustration about the cause the law. There is a compelling case that the easiest way highlighted by the hon. Member for Islwyn. I took up to tackle the problem is through legislation, so will the the matter when some of my constituents highlighted Minister look again at that? 9WH Copycat Websites (Government 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 10WH Services) Services) Mr Vaizey: I will turn to that point in a moment. I education about the best way to access Government agree that some of these websites arguably work within services should not be part of our approach to tackle the law. That causes a problem, so I shall explain how the problem, but we must do that creatively. we plan to deal with that in a moment. A further complication, which goes back to a point Citizens can now interact with the Government online made by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, is the by applying for passports, booking MOT tests for cars, difficulty of categorising all activities of the websites obtaining replacement birth certificates and applying that we have been talking about as bad or misleading. for driving licences. I am told that people can also apply In 2012, the Office of Fair Trading looked into online online for a licence to be buried at sea. That is the least commercial practices relating to Government services used Government service at the moment, but now that and concluded that it was not appropriate to take the application is digital, the attraction may increase. formal enforcement action. Its investigation did not Many Government services are provided free of charge, reveal widespread attempts by non-Government websites but some, such as applying for a passport, involve a fee. to misrepresent their affiliation with the Government. The process is generally straightforward: follow the Moreover, the OFT took the view that the overall instructions and pay the charge—job done. depiction of the sites investigated, including their branding, colouring and images, did not create the misleading To find the websites on which to access the services impression that they were official Government websites. they need, the vast majority of people will have to use Many of the sites carried statements explaining the an internet search engine, and that is where we come nature of the service provided and disclaiming any across the first difficulty. Most people inadvertently end official status or affiliation with the Government, and up on misleading websites through the sponsored adverts the OFT considered that those statements were sufficiently section on search engines such as Google or Bing. The unambiguous and prominently displayed. content on the Government’s site, gov.uk, is optimised The OFT’s findings and the means by which such to ensure that, as far as possible, it tops the rankings in sites promote their offerings both bring us back to search engine results but, unfortunately, the sponsored education. How do we help the users of our services to adverts section sits above the organic search results, so spot when they are on a Government website or that of people who are unfamiliar with the layout of a search a third party? How do we ensure that citizens and engine page often click on to the misleading website by businesses can enjoy the benefits and additional value mistake. that competition through third-party provision of access The Government have worked with the search engine to Government services can bring without fear of being providers to understand the terms and conditions they exploited? have adopted to guide the use of their sponsored ad The number of complaints we receive about misleading slots. Although problem adverts are not necessarily websites still represents a small fraction of the total illegal, they often break the search engine provider’s number of service users. Ensuring that the look and feel terms and conditions, but sometimes they are not actively of Government services become more consistent, as removed unless complaints are received. We sat down well as providing access to such services through one with the Government Digital Service, Google and Bing site, will help our efforts to get users to the right place. to agree a mechanism for flagging adverts and websites in breach of search engines’ policies so that they can be Chris Evans: The Minister says that the number of taken down. The arrangements are operating effectively. complaints made about copycat websites is quite low. Departments are working with search engine providers Before raising the matter at last Wednesday’s Prime when such sites are identified so that the adverts can be Minister’s questions, I did some research into scams, removed. Search engine providers have introduced forms and particularly scam mail. Only one in five crimes are so that users can report problem websites, and we will being reported because of embarrassment or shame, or continue to notify them of sites that are brought to our because people do not even know that they have been attention. ripped off. Is there any evidence of how many people are not reporting when they are scammed by copycat When we have discovered, or members of the public websites? have highlighted, the misuse of Government logos, we have ensured that they are removed from offending Mr Vaizey: I will try to give the hon. Gentleman some sites. Such sites have included those for renewing driving evidence before I conclude my speech; otherwise I will licences. When necessary, we have used specialist lawyers. write to him. Although he raised the matter at Prime I am pleased that there has been a significant drop in Minister’s questions, I am not aware of the difference the number of reports about websites misusing our between those who report misleading websites and people logos and thus misleading users. who choose not to report them, or of what that survey Some Government services are hit harder than others. was based on. Services that tend to involve one-off transactions are We started an education campaign in July, using the ones to which such third-party websites offer access, social media to raise people’s awareness that when they such as for passport and driving licence applications, want to use a Government website, they should start at and for booking driving tests. Infrequency of use creates gov.uk. To maintain momentum, there has been a focus a problem because the users of services provided by on Twitter activity in subsequent themed weeks based Departments and their agencies may not be familiar on some of the main services that are being targeted by with the look and feel of those sites, and the wide misleading websites. We have also worked with external demographic base of users limits the impact of broad-based organisations such as Which? In July, it published a communication and education. That does not make the consumer piece, “How to spot a copycat website”, problem insurmountable, and nor does it mean that which is an excellent guide from a trusted source for the 11WH Copycat Websites (Government 28 OCTOBER 2014 Copycat Websites (Government 12WH Services) Services) [Mr Vaizey] effectively to impose a burden to regulate such websites, rather than outlawing them. However, we will obviously public. We have also worked with digital journalism, look at any suggestions that the hon. Member for and “Government Computing” published an awareness- Newcastle upon Tyne Central makes. raising piece on the #StartAtGOVUK campaign. We will continue to work on innovative ways to raise awareness, Chi Onwurah: To clarify, the amendment is yet to be and any thoughts and suggestions from hon. Members debated in the Lords. Will the Minister set out his will be most welcome. position? We have also been leading a cross-Government approach to address individual complaints. For the first time ever, Mr Vaizey: As I understand the position, we oppose we have set up a webpage via which consumers can those proposals as they would impose a regulatory report copycat sites. Full details of that one-stop shop burden on the Government effectively to regulate these can be found on the gov.uk website, and it represents a websites. It is not clear whether an amendment will be modern and dynamic response that is appropriate to the pressed to a Division, but I will keep in touch with the online era. hon. Lady about the Government’s position, if it evolves. I shall talk briefly about enforcement. In March, my I agreed with what may have been implied in some of hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny the hon. Lady’s remarks about the need to work more Willott), the then Minister, provided £120,000 in additional closely with local government. The Government Digital Government funding to the national trading standards Service has delivered a revolution in how the Government e-crime team to support enforcement action against engage with the citizen, and that revolution could well copycat websites. In late June, four search warrants be cascaded down, as it were, to local government. That were executed on properties, leading to the arrest of five is not to say that local government is not doing its own people and the disruption of the operation of at least pioneering work, however. 25 copycat websites. A criminal investigation is ongoing. The hon. Lady was right to talk about digital inclusion. Government agencies are individually proactive in On one level, I am on the front line of that, in terms of this area. The Intellectual Property Office pursues, rolling out broadband and mobile services so that people prosecutes and puts out of business the operators of can actually access online services, but the other part of websites offering copyright-infringing material that can the equation is encouraging people to use those services be found through search results. I am pleased that the once they can access them. As she knows, the charity main search engine providers are fully engaged in supporting Go ON UK works with 60 stakeholders to encourage us in that. people to use these services. Many of the counties in charge of their own broadband roll-out schemes are Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has a robust also encouraging people to get online. We believe that system that includes the use of a third-party security the best way forward is a grass-roots campaign that firm to find and shut down rogue sites that are engaged works with charities that can get out to individuals, or in phishing activity. In 2012-13, it shut down 560 rogue encourage them to come to local community spaces, so sites, and it has continued to warn taxpayers to be on that they can see the huge benefits of being online. As their guard against fraudulent phishing e-mails after we roll out universal credit, the Government should almost 75,000 fake e-mails were reported to the taxman look carefully at how we encourage people to access between April and September this year. Those e-mails benefits online. promised a tax refund, which is obviously incredibly tempting, and asked for the recipient’s name, address, This has been a useful debate. Although this might date of birth, and bank and credit card details, including not have come across because of my heavy cold, I feel passwords and their mother’s maiden name. HMRC has almost as passionately about the subject as Opposition worked with law enforcement agencies to help to close Members. Given the huge success of the Government down more than 4,000 websites that are responsible for Digital Service, with a genuine revolution in engagement sending out such e-mails. It has made it clear that it with the citizen, it is important that that revolution is never contacts customers who are due a tax refund by not marred by unscrupulous copycat websites. The e-mail, as a letter is always sent through the post. Government have to strike a balance between those websites that are genuinely innovative and provide a People’s behaviour and their expectations of online useful service, and those that are either simply trying to services are constantly evolving. We do not want to fleece the customer or, even worse, to phish their contact stifle innovation, but nor do we want to impact on details and then do even worse things with them. We are websites that honestly and legitimately provide value-added raising awareness through our campaign and working services now, or those that could emerge in the future. I closely with the search engines, which is the right thing fully recognise that there is still work to be done, and we to do, because search engines are the means by which wrote to all MPs and peers recently to outline what most people come across these websites. When there is a activity we are undertaking. clear breach of the law, we are using agencies to enforce Opposition Members referred to amendments to the the law. Consumer Rights Bill. I am not sure whether the relevant amendments were debated in the Lords yesterday, but 10.14 am the Government did not support them, as they seem Sitting suspended. 13WH 28 OCTOBER 2014 Personal Independence Payments 14WH

Personal Independence Payments very upset and the health care professional informed her manager of this. Consequently, the health care professional was told that she could carry out the 10.58 am assessment if the patient agreed that it could go ahead. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Afterwards, the patient had to get another taxi back to (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the hospital, at a cost of another £12. Mr Gray. I welcome this debate. Numerous cases involve what is at best a very sceptical The measure of a Government’s compassion is their line of questioning and at worst an outright interrogation treatment of the most vulnerable members of society. of a claimant’s circumstances, and I know that many of Although we all recognise the unfortunate reality that my colleagues know of similar experiences. we must deal with our nation’s deficit, that should never Another decision involved an individual with heart be done on the backs of that section of our society. I failure who was initially refused any component of PIP, requested this debate in response to the dreadful experiences because she had walked from the car park to the assessment of some of my constituents with personal independence centre, albeit with enormous difficulty. payments. Many of them require the state’s support in Time and again, the main reasons why people are order to enjoy a life that those of us fortunate enough to asking for PIP decisions to be reviewed are, first, the enjoy good health often take for granted. For them, a failure to consider fully the impact of a client’s condition fair measure of support makes the difference between during the medical assessment, and, secondly, spending their lives at home, isolated, alone and cut off inconsistencies in the information provided by the from the rest of society, and enjoying as active a life as Department for Work and Pensions following a decision. possible and participating in their communities. Decisions about the refusal of the mobility component Colleagues will know that in the past I have raised the also cause problems. In its comprehensive report, Citizens deficiencies of the former disability living allowance. Advice Scotland states that it has found selective use of When a constituent of mined endured the difficulties evidence in order to make a decision not to award the associated with a laryngectomy—the removal of the benefit. Clients feel that not all of their circumstances voicebox, which is almost always carried out as a means have been considered, or that they have been over-simplified. of treating cancer—I spoke in the House. The benefits Another awful example is that of a client who had process was so convoluted that it resulted in an individual just been awarded a PIP daily living standard rate. He having to fill out an application form of massive was told that he could drop dead at any time due to a proportions. That would be difficult for many of us, let heart condition, and he had a specialist cardiologist’s alone for an individual with a profound physical or report from the beginning of last year stating that. The mental disability.In this individual’s case, using a telephone person is so traumatised by the wait and the hardship was just not possible. Enable, the charity supporting that have been caused that he cannot face the appeal; he people with learning disabilities in Scotland, has said: has been told to avoid stressful circumstances at all “Whilst it may be possible for many claimants to make this initial costs. All that, and much more of what is in the report, call without support, it is our experience that people with a is totally unacceptable. learning disability are often unable to do this and require the Four in five advisors say that delays are causing physical support of advice services. This is especially true when worsening health, and in nine out of 10 cases are no family or other support is available to assist.” causing additional stress and anxiety, not to mention Citizens Advice Scotland agrees. financial strain, while claims are being assessed. I sought this debate today not least to congratulate Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Citizens Advice Scotland, which runs the Scottish citizens Co-op): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing advice bureaux, on its 75th anniversary.I warmly commend this debate, and I am sure that we will continue to its excellent staff and many volunteers. Crucially, it discuss this issue during the course of the day. released a report recently that shows that the rollout of PIP to replace DLA is in an utterly shambolic state. I What can double or treble delays is the delay upon commend that report to the House for its consideration, delay in the appeal procedure. I know of the case of and I intend to make a number of references to it. For someone who first applied for PIP back in September example, for some rural residents in the north of Scotland 2013. She was refused it in the first instance. She was the nearest assessment centre is in Inverness, which then successful at the first-tier appeal, but the Department requires an 80-mile round trip. In some cases, people has not yet decided whether or not to appeal to the next have to go even further, travelling distances of up to tier up; because of various delays and errors, that 100 miles, and even in urban areas there are serious decision has not yet been reached. So, 13 months after problems. first applying, she is still facing nobody knows how many months of delay, and that kind of thing is causing I will give another example of a person who was people much tension and pressure, is it not? contacted by Atos for a home visit, so that they could receive a medical assessment for PIP. The individual Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. Interventions was receiving in-patient care in hospital on the arranged must be brief. date and informed Atos, which told her that non-attendance at the meeting would affect any award of PIP.Therefore, Mr Clarke: I know why my hon. Friend feels so the patient had to arrange for an early discharge from passionate, and the experience that he has shared with hospital and pay for a taxi back to her home. Using a us is reflected in the views expressed in the report that I walking frame and with a nasogastric tube in place, she am asking the House to consider. was told by the health care professional who arrived to Another example I can give is of an individual who see her that the assessment could not be carried out has serious health issues and who last year was diagnosed because she was too ill. Of course, that left the patient with throat cancer. He has been waiting for an appointment 15WH Personal Independence Payments28 OCTOBER 2014 Personal Independence Payments 16WH

[Mr Tom Clarke] Independence Payment: early progress”, investigated the performance of the DWP as it introduced PIP. It with Atos to be assessed for PIP. Due to the length of found that time that his processing is taking, he is now in a great “the Department did not allow enough time to test whether the deal of financial difficulty, with rent and council tax assessment process could handle large numbers of claims. As a arrears of almost £2,600, despite his wife working full-time. result of this poor early operational performance, claimants face long and uncertain delays and the Department has had to delay As we all know, PIP is an important passport to the wider roll-out of the programme.” many other benefits, such as carer’s allowance, disability premiums, the mobility scheme, concessionary travel The Department anticipated that it would take 74 days schemes, etc. It is indeed a lifeline for people who could to decide on a claim, but the actual average wait is not afford to leave the house otherwise and it is a vital 107 days. For terminally ill claimants—I underline part of their personal finances. It cannot be right that “terminally ill”—the process was taking 28 days on many of them face ruin and destitution while they are average against a departmental assumption of 10 days. waiting for their claim to be processed. That represents a wholly unrealistic assumption of the capacities of both the Department for Work and Pensions This extreme financial hardship has caused a number and Atos in Scotland. The end result is a system that of individuals to rely on handouts from friends and would not work on paper, clearly does not work in food banks, and on the accumulation of debt to an practice and is further straining claimants’ finances and unsustainable degree. I know of an individual who has health. been waiting for an assessment since November 2013, but now his income has been so reduced that he cannot My right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret travel to appointments; if he pays for transport, he Hodge), the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, cannot top up his electricity meter. He has post-traumatic said in response to the NAO report: stress disorder and his current situation is resulting in “The Department need to understand the causes of this backlog his becoming more withdrawn and reluctant to request to develop a clear plan on how they are going to work with contractors to clear it, and ensure there are suitable processes in help. His mental health is deteriorating as a result. He place to make sure this does not happen again.” has worked his entire life and in his 50s is a first-time claimant. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): In Coatbridge, which is in my constituency, on 1 I have experience in my constituency, as I am sure my April there were 82 PIP applications for daily living right hon. Friend does in his, of people winning an claims and 160 mobility claims. I checked with Coatbridge appeal after a considerable amount of time. The person CAB this morning and discovered that all these claims will receive their PIP allowance some six months after, are lying in the in-tray of Atos or DWP and not being but their housing benefit is not backdated to the point brought to a conclusion. I also clarified the position of at which they lost their disability allowance. When the the CAB in Bellshill, which is also in my constituency. It benefit is lost, the person also loses their passport to is handling a PIP claim that has been pending for housing benefit, but local authorities do not backdate 10 months. to the day when the person lost their disability or other My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South benefit. People are therefore left with substantial debts (Mr Cunningham) tells me that there are similar problems in their housing account that no one will pay for. in his city, and on that point I will give way. Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I thank If I may say so, I am pleased that we have here so many my right hon. Friend for giving way and I congratulate Coatbridge-born Members of Parliament, including my him on securing a welcome and—in many ways—a hon. Friends the Members for Linlithgow and East well-timed debate. He has just described what we are Falkirk (Michael Connarty) and for Coventry South experiencing in Coventry, including sloppy paperwork (Mr Cunningham). Not least you, Mr Gray, have close and long delays in receiving benefits, especially the associations with Coatbridge— earnings supplement, which is claimed by 25% of the claimants in Coventry. CAB time is taken up with that. Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. The right hon. Gentleman knows well that my father was born and We see the same if we look at matters nationally. brought up in Coatbridge and that my grandfather was About 75,000 people are affected nationally, so what is a butcher in Coatbridge, but that need not imply any happening in Scotland is also happening in Coventry sort of sympathy with his case. and the rest of England. I do not want to repeat what my hon. Friend has said. Despite that, we should Mr Clarke: Mr Gray, I do not think that anybody congratulate the city of Coventry, because it is trying to would confuse your neutrality in this debate with the get on top of what is, quite frankly, an overwhelming opinions that you rightly express when you have the problem. This whole facility—the entire benefits system— opportunity. must be looked at now, because it seems to be a shambles. Mencap, when giving evidence to the Public Accounts Committee, asked that the reassessments of people Mr Clarke: I am glad that my hon. Friend intervened currently claiming disability living allowance be stopped to underline my assertion that problems exist throughout until the huge delays in assessing people’s PIP applications the whole United Kingdom. were dealt with. The Select Committee on Work and The truth is that the picture is depressing, and it is Pensions, chaired admirably by my hon. Friend the not as if the Department for Work and Pensions has Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), released not been warned. The National Audit Office, which a report in March 2014 entitled “Monitoring the published a report in February 2014 entitled “Personal performance of the Department for Work and Pensions 17WH Personal Independence Payments28 OCTOBER 2014 Personal Independence Payments 18WH in 2012-13”. It found that the current level of service Bellshill (Mr Clarke) on securing the debate. I used to sit offered to PIP claimants and the length of time that in debates that he led when I was a shadow Minister, so I disabled people had to wait to find out whether they know that he has long-standing interest in disability were eligible was “unacceptable”. Statistics published matters and it is good to hear his views. by the DWP on 11 February 2014 showed that 229,700 I also pay tribute to Citizens Advice. The right hon. new claims had been submitted up to the end of December Gentleman mentioned Citizens Advice Scotland, but 2013, but that only 43,800 decisions had been made. my constituency team works closely with the citizens Noting that some claims were taking six months or advice bureau in the Forest of Dean. We assist some of more to process, the Committee called for “urgent its clients, and sometimes it assists a number of ours. action” on the current “unacceptable service” provided As the right hon. Gentleman referred to our overall to PIP claimants. While some of the reports were published treatment of the most vulnerable in our society and several months ago, the situation has hardly changed. disabled people, I will begin by putting on record that Statistics released by the DWP in September show that, the amount of taxpayer money spent on personal of the 529,400 cases registered for PIP between April independence payments and disability living allowance 2013 and the end of July 2014, just over 206,000 had for working-age people has been more in real terms in been processed and awarded, declined or withdrawn. each year of this Parliament compared with the year That means that just under 40% of cases registered for that we came to power. To be clear, more resources are PIP have been cleared in 16 months, which is a wholly going to support people with disabilities to enable them avoidable disaster for claimants. to live independent lives and to work. The problem is not exclusively Scottish. The Government, through the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, I have been frank in oral questions in the Chamber, are gambling that the British public are suffering from and during a lengthy evidence session with the Work austerity measures and that they have little interest in and Pensions Committee, that the delays that people how people with disabilities are being treated. The face are unacceptable. I have not tried to hide from that Government are wrong, and their standing in the eyes and I am committed to putting it right. It is literally my of the public is suffering. People with disabilities have top priority, and it was one of the things that the Prime families and friends, and the British people are profoundly Minister specifically asked me to address when he appointed fair. In any event, it is morally repugnant for the coalition me in July. The right hon. Gentleman, having set out his Government to mistreat vulnerable people as a result of concerns and those in the reports, will want to know a bureaucratic logjam that they have created and for what the Department is doing to deal with the issues. which they must accept responsibility. In other words, it is a United Kingdom Government problem. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Will the Minister give way? I have congratulated Citizens Advice on its report, but it would be remiss of me not to highlight and Mr Harper: I may at the end of my speech, but if the promote the outstanding work of local government and hon. Lady will forgive me, I will try to deal with the their partners, which engage closely with vulnerable points raised by the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, people. In my constituency, for example, North Lanarkshire Chryston and Bellshill. As this is his debate, it would be council has recognised the plight of vulnerable people discourteous if I did not do so. and has impressively put substantial additional resources into tackling their welfare issues, providing even more We have a new team of officials in the Department welfare rights officers. No praise is too high for the that is working on a daily basis with our assessment marvellous work that they do. providers. Atos deals with assessments in Scotland, while Capita is the other provider in Great Britain. I Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): look at their performance on a weekly basis to ensure Will my right hon. Friend give way? that we are driving through improvements. The capacity of the providers has increased. We have doubled the Mr Clarke: If my hon. Friend allows me, I will not, so number of health professionals carrying out the assessments. as to give the Minister time to reply. We have increased the number of assessment centres In conclusion, the Secretary of State should have the and extended the opening hours. We have also increased humility to offer a profuse apology for the stress, hardship the number of paper-based assessments, which occur and financial inconvenience that the roll-out of PIP has when the evidence that the claimant sends to us makes it caused to so many people. He should publicly apologise sufficiently clear that a decision can be reached without on behalf of his Government. There should be a clear needing to get them to attend a face-to-face assessment. timetable for dealing with the transition to PIP, and it We follow that process when we can. If claimants have should be agreed in consultation with local government, also had a work capability assessment, we are looking at Citizens Advice, MPs and interested charities. There using the report from that as part of the evidence, and should be no further roll-out of PIP until all the problems that is enabling us to make more decisions on paper, and backlogs have been sorted. There should be a thus sparing the claimant the need to come in for a further independent inquiry to identify how the Department face-to-face assessment. for Work and Pensions got into this hopeless mess and We have made a number of changes to our processes how it will respond. and IT systems to ensure that the transmission of information from the provider to the Department is 11.17 am streamlined. We have also looked at what we communicate The Minister of State, Department for Work and to claimants regarding the information with which they Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): It is a great pleasure to provide us in the first place to ensure that we get the serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate right information that enables us to make a decision the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and earlier in the process. 19WH Personal Independence Payments28 OCTOBER 2014 Personal Independence Payments 20WH

[Mr Harper] claimants a cash-flow issue. It is worth saying that if someone is successful in getting PIP, their award is We have increased the number of decisions we have backdated to the date of claim, but I accept that some taken. We made more than 35,000 a month according face such a issue. PIP is not an out-of-work benefit. It is to the latest published statistics, which cover up to July. not designed for those who are unable to work, as that Since then, we have continued to build significantly on is what jobseeker’s allowance and the employment and those numbers week on week. I will not pretend that the support allowance are for. Under the ESA, people are problem is fixed, but we are moving in the right direction. paid an assessment rate from when they put in the We will deliver the Secretary of State’s commitment to claim. If people are unable to work because of their ensure that, by the end of this year, no one will have to disability or health condition, PIP is not the benefit that wait more than 16 weeks for their assessment, and we deals with their lack of income. will look to improve that further next year. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the important In Scotland specifically, Atos, which is the assessment issue of passporting, which is where getting PIP entitles provider there, has more than trebled its output this someone to other benefits. I was asked about carer’s year. It is now clearing more cases than we send it and allowance, and when someone gets PIP, that will be working through its backlog. The picture is improving, backdated, and the carer’s allowance can be backdated, but I do not want to take away from the fact that people too. have been inconvenienced and experienced some delays. In Scotland, we have seen one of the best improvements Michael Connarty: The Minister must accept that if for any part of Great Britain. There has been a 40% housing benefit is not backdated, people can be left increase in the number of home consultations. The with a substantial debt, even if they get PIP on appeal. right hon. Gentleman and the report to which he referred said that given the geography and population density of Mr Harper: I listened carefully to what the hon. Scotland, travelling to an assessment centre can involve Gentleman said about that. PIP and DLA are not a lengthy journey. More home consultations are taking passported benefits for housing benefit. There is a disability place, and there is a new assessment centre in Edinburgh, premium in housing benefit, but getting PIP or DLA with more to follow in Aberdeen and Dundee in the does not entitle someone to housing benefit. If he wants coming months. to write to me about a specific case, however, I will look We have improved the communication to claimants into it. PIP and DLA can give a bit more housing at the front end of the process so that they know the benefit if someone is entitled to that. However, they do best evidence to supply and how long their claim may not determine whether someone is entitled to housing take to be assessed. We stress the importance of sending benefit, so I am not sure I follow his point. us relevant information to speed up the claim. We have also been communicating better with claimants to confirm Michael Connarty: I will do what the Minister suggests. when we have received their forms so that they know After the debate, I will be meeting the Under-Secretary that their claim is in the system. of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the performance Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), of the system for claimants who are terminally ill. I am about that very point. pleased to say that our dealing with those cases is now pretty close to our target. He is right that the performance Mr Harper: Okay. On other passporting issues, blue earlier this year was not adequate. My predecessor, the badges can be issued without PIP being in payment, so right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), if someone is not getting PIP, it does not mean that they put a lot of work into dealing with that, working closely cannot get a blue badge. NHS help with travel expenses with Macmillan Cancer Support. I think we have got and prescriptions is based on the receipt of income-related that part of the process working well, as is right, because benefits. Local authorities are able to provide social it is important that we make timely decisions for those care or help with adaptations on the basis of their with terminal illnesses and give them support. The assessments, and they should not exclude people just assessment providers are giving claimants better information because they are not entitled to the personal independence about where they are in the process, how long a claim payment. may take and who to contact at each stage of their claim. In the couple of minutes remaining, I shall say a little On assessment outcomes—while the right hon. more about claims relating to those who are terminally Gentleman talked about delays, he also touched on the ill. In addition to the things that I have mentioned, we assessment itself—we want to ensure that people get have put in place a dedicated phone service for such high-quality, objective and fair assessments. We want claims, as well as an electronic form so that the medical everyone to get the right decision first time. The report information we require from GPs and consultants can included several quotes from CAB customers on both get to the Department as quickly as possible. As I said, sides of the argument, a number of which demonstrated we are now achieving the performance that we would that once people had received their assessment, they felt want from the Department, so we have made progress that the process was fair and that it reached the right in that area. outcomes. There were, of course, some quotes setting I understand the frustrations that people have out other experiences, but I thought that the Citizens experienced. There have been cases in my constituency Advice report was fairly balanced and demonstrated of people waiting too long. I have been frank about that the quality of assessment is good. that, and my top priority is to improve that situation. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the impact of We are making progress and moving in the right direction, some of the delays, and we also heard about that in and we will hit the Secretary of State’s commitment by interventions. Of course, a delay in a claim can cause the end of the year—I give the right hon. Gentleman 21WH Personal Independence Payments 28 OCTOBER 2014 22WH my assurance about that. I have clearly set out that we Education for Young People with are spending more money on supporting those on DLA Disabilities (UK Aid) and PIP in every year of this Parliament compared with the year we came to office. It is not the case that we are dealing with the deficit off the backs of disabled people, and I want to ensure that the customer experience is [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] improved. The right hon. Gentleman talked about an independent 2.30 pm review. He will know that Paul Gray has been appointed Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a privilege to carry out the first independent review. He has taken to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I do evidence from a range of people involved in this benefit. not know how long we have for our speeches, given that He is due to provide his report, which the Department this is a long debate and there are not many of us in the will publish, by the end of the year. It will set out, Chamber. However, we are considering an important according to his terms of reference, information about topic. The timing of the debate presented some challenges the quality of assessments, how the providers are performing for Department for International Development Ministers, and whether the assessments are correctly putting people who are all over the world as we speak, but I am glad into the right categories. that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Mr Jim Cunningham: Will the Minister give way? Wirral South (Alison McGovern), are present, because it is important that we hear from the Government and Mr Harper: So long as the hon. Gentleman is very the Opposition. I welcome this opportunity for the quick, as we have 35 seconds left. debate given DFID’s recent commitments, the progress made on addressing the issue of UK aid to education Mr Cunningham: I will be as quick as I can. On the for young people with disabilities, and the report published 75,000 claims waiting to be assessed, what progress has earlier this year by the International Development been made in England? The Minister has talked about Committee and the Government’s largely positive Scotland, but what about England, where there are response to it. similar problems? I approach this matter as a former teacher—education Mr Harper: I recognise that the hon. Gentleman is important to me, as it is to other Members of the represents an English constituency, as I do. We are House—and co-chair of the all-party group on global making progress in England. By focusing on Scotland, I education for all. Education is fundamental to ending was not trying to say that that is the only place where we the poverty, discrimination and exclusion faced by disabled are making progress, as we are making progress across people in developing countries, but it is estimated that Great Britain. I was simply making the point to the in most countries disabled children are much likely right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill more to be out of school than any other group of young that the performance in Scotland is better than it is people. Disability has long been neglected as a niche elsewhere in Great Britain, and I hope that what I have area of development, deemed by many to be either too said will reassure constituents. complex, due to the wide range of challenges that it presents, or too small to be core to development issues. 11.30 am The millennium development goals fail to mention Sitting suspended. disability, but disabled people make up an estimated 15% of the global population, and disability is both a cause and a consequence of poverty. Some 80% of disabled people live in developing countries and the United Nations has labelled them the world’s largest minority. It is estimated that there are 93 million disabled children globally and, as I said, they are more likely to be out of school than any other group of children. In Ethiopia, less than 3% of disabled children have access to primary education. In some countries, being disabled more than doubles a child’s chance of never enrolling in school. Disabled children are also less likely to remain in school. There are huge challenges throughout the developing world in keeping children in schools, but that challenge is heightened for children with disabilities. Difficulties also present themselves when attempting to transition to the next grade of education. The exclusion of disabled children not only denies them their core human right to education, but makes it impossible, unless we address the matter properly, for the world to reach the millennium development goal of universal primary education by 2015. Some 58 million children of primary age are still out of school. While it is undeniable that progress has been made, it has now stalled. It is estimated that disabled children could make up a third of the out-of-school population. Without 23WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 24WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) [Mr Mark Williams] The Government published their response to the thorough International Development Committee inquiry specific targets to include disabled people, it is clear that early this year. DFID committed to publish a new many of the millennium development goals will not be cross-departmental disability framework, and the work reached. to develop it is going on right now. I believe that the aim I welcome DFID’s progress in recent years, including is to launch the framework in November. DFID has through several commitments made under this Government pledged to prioritise education in the framework, which and the previous one. In 2000, DFID was the first goes back to the point that the right hon. Member for donor to develop an issues paper on disability, and Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) development guidance notes on disability-inclusive made about a cross-sectoral approach. There is a package programming and education for children with disabilities. of issues relating to disability, education, inclusion and DFID also commissioned research to help to address gender. I look to the Minister and DFID officials to some of the evidence gaps around disability. In 2008, reaffirm that education is prioritised as a key sector and under the previous Government, DFID was the first that the educational needs of those with disabilities will donor to support the Disability Rights Fund, and be thoroughly addressed. constructive progress has been made more recently. The The framework is welcome. However, one of the past Under-Secretary of State for International Development, challenges has been that while DFID produced optional my right hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and guidance for their country offices that said the right Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), has been championing things, it did not incentivise action. The Department the cause, in particular by announcing that UK aid will has just published a new inclusive learning topic guide fund accessible school construction. DFID is working for its staff, which is an excellent resource, but it is still with partners to improve the data on disabled children just guidance. How will DFID ensure that the new and education in developing countries. The UK is playing disability framework is implemented after its publication? a vital role in championing a post-2015 agenda that Will the framework include mandatory, action-orientated leaves no one behind, specifically by saying that no requirements for, with strong accountability mechanisms target will be considered unless it will be met for all for reporting on, the inclusion of disabled people in aid social groups, including those with disabilities. programmes? That is the situation for gender, and that needs to be the case for disability, too. Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Will the Minister outline what DFID will be do to Hillsborough) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman support and train country staff on disability inclusion? on obtaining this debate. It is appropriate that disability That, too, is a key principle. We need to ensure that all issues are being debated in the Chamber and Westminster teacher training programmes that are supported by UK Hall at the same time. It is good that we have an aid promote inclusive teaching approaches, and that all all-party, no-party approach on the matter. Does he education aid programmes will measure whether they agree that while there has been substantial movement are reaching disabled children and young people. While from both the previous and present Governments—I I commend the Minister for the positive commitment to pay tribute to the Secretary of State and Ministers, who ensuring that UK-funded school construction projects are receptive to what is said about this issue—the notion are accessible to disabled children, that is not all that is of being a young girl in poverty with a disability in the needed. developing world should concern us all, because those girls are literally at the bottom of the pile? Anything Physical accessibility to buildings must be complemented that we can do to focus attention on that in the post-2015 by an attitudinal change, and inclusive teaching and agenda is vital. learning environments. During a visit to a school in Lagos, I remember that the head teacher was keen to Mr Williams: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for show us the DFID-funded toilet block. There was a dire his contribution. He speaks with passion on such matters need for the block, as it was a big school and there were in the all-party group. We have examined targets in the issues to do with water and sanitation, so DFID had past, and he is right that part of the challenge has addressed that. The head teacher proudly showed us the involved a narrow focus within the broad issue of getting toilet block, with its accessible ramps and equipment, out-of-school children into school. There are key issues but I saw very few people with disabilities accessing the affecting gender and disability, and there is often a facilities in that school. critical crossover between the two. I concur with his I also visited a school in Zanzibar that had a wheelchair generosity towards this Government and the previous ramp to assist with access to a classroom, but I then saw one, but there is still a huge amount to do. If this debate in that classroom 60 to 70 teenage children in front of serves one purpose, it is that of continuing to highlight the teacher with no desks and no seats, so there was no the real need for action. conceivable way in which a wheelchair user could have I welcome the UK’s position as a leading donor to accessed it. We need to be mindful of the teaching and education, including with the pledge of up to £300 million learning environments in which schools operate. A ramp to the Global Partnership for Education in June, and is no good unless the needs of the children who would the way in which DFID Ministers have worked with use it are also met through their education provision. GPE to ensure that disabled children are prioritised. As Children with disabilities have the same right to co-chair of the all-party group, I have visited Nigeria, education as all other children and UK aid can help by Zanzibar and Tanzania during this Parliament. I pay supporting the resourcing of inclusive education that tribute to the DFID staff whom I met in those countries, ultimately benefits all children, not just those with as well as those throughout the world, who are working disabilities, and that helps to change negative societal hard in the educational field to further our aims on the attitudes and discrimination about disability.It is particularly ground. important that we develop inclusive teacher training so 25WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 26WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) that more teachers in developing countries are equipped stakeholders in the community. In effect, the committee to include children with disabilities. The UK is a world would operate like a school governing body, but with leader on aid to support teacher training, so we could tentacles that were more developed for attracting young make a big difference. people into schools. We talk about disability issues The challenge so far has been to address the shortage being hidden, so community engagement and empowerment of teachers and the need to get more children into should be a great tool in assisting those who are currently schools. Getting more children into schools means that excluded. more teachers are required, so we have seen short cuts I saw another project, albeit in a health context, in a in some parts of the world, especially in teacher training rural part of Zanzibar, where we were looking at courses and the professional development that is offered. malnutrition and early-years education. Volunteers went If challenges on teachers’ pay are not addressed, the out into villages and communities to talk to young teaching profession does not get the esteem that it does mothers about malnutrition. They located children who in our country. Those multi-faceted problems need to were suffering from malnutrition and encouraged their be addressed. mothers to go to the hospital or health centre to get the I ask the Minister to make a commitment that support that they needed. We know about the hidden UK-funded teacher training will promote inclusive teaching problem of disability, so I am looking for strategies to methods and curriculums. That must not be lost in the empower communities to make information available big challenge of training more teachers in that valued so that action can be taken. profession to address the growing number of out-of-school Research by the Global Campaign for Education has children across the world. noted that DFID has undertaken some activities in Will DFID put in place disaggregated data for its Nigeria on the inclusion of children with disabilities in programme and funding to measure how many, and to its education work. It has supported censuses of out-of- what extent, children with disabilities are reached and school children, with results aggregated by gender and supported into education? The biggest challenge is to disability. Good, practical work has therefore been done identify the scale of the problem that we need to address. on the ground, but while the information contains three Will DFID encourage an increase in its targeting of sub-indicators on inclusion, the Department’s business resources into the area of disability and education, such case makes scant reference to disability. Nigeria is one as through the creation of a disabled children’s education of the largest recipients of UK aid, including through challenge fund? Such a fund would be similar to the the education sector support programme, which will laudable girls’ education challenge fund, which I remind provide up to £134 million between 2008 and 2017. The hon. Members is an innovative £355 million fund to programme is delivered by a consortium headed by tackle the extreme marginalisation from education of Cambridge Education. Given the scale of funding it the poorest girls. May we have something similar for receives, one would expect that children with disabilities disability? We all know that disabled children suffer would be a much more prominent element in it. from extreme marginalisation in developing countries Finally, our attention turns to the post-2015 agenda. and that they should be supported with targeted additional I welcome the Government’s championing of an agenda investment, as well as mainstreamed, in a twin-track that leaves no one behind, and that should be our approach. I would be grateful for the Minister’s thoughts guiding principle, especially as it is expressed in the idea on creating such a fund. that no target will be considered to be met unless it is I welcome the commitments already made that DFID met for all social groups, including people with disabilities. will work with partners to strengthen data. Lack of As we know, the millennium development goals did not data at a national level both reflects and compounds the mention disability at all, but 2015 gives us a crucial invisibility of people with disabilities in development opportunity to change that. efforts. That is a major barrier to the recognition of disability as a core development issue. How are Ministers seeking to ensure that the needs and rights of disabled people are recognised as an Information is often speculative and out of date. I am agreed priority in the final goals and targets? We particularly aware from my friends in the third sector—I pay particular need to consider a tangible measure of how we ascertain tribute to Results UK, which was responsible for my that no target is met unless it is met for all. International trips and provided the secretariat for our all-party group— negotiations are always challenging, involving many that DFID held a conference on disability data last different agendas, but I hope that the Minister will week, so I would be grateful to know what outcomes reassure us that DFID is working with other Governments arose from those discussions. to consolidate support and ensure that the “leave no What is DFID doing to support the capacity of one behind” target does not get lost. national Governments and international organisations I have not mentioned any individual examples and to collect and use data on children and young people will refrain from doing so, but I should reiterate that with disabilities. How many of them are in or out of behind every one of the statistics, there is a real human school? We need to ensure that the UK champions the story. Handicap International came to see me last week strengthening of data in developing countries so that and showed me a charming photograph of Fanta, a our development efforts mean that no one is left behind, seven-year-old girl with cerebral palsy from the Kono although I realise that that task is huge. district of Sierra Leone. The photograph shows her Let me set out two ideas that could well be used. In smiling because, as part of a DFID-funded GEC project, Nigeria, I saw that DFID had successfully promoted she had just received a wheelchair that will allow her to school-based management committees to try to create a access her local primary school for the first time. That community leadership in schools to encourage young will be to the benefit of her school, of Sierra Leone, people into school and to liaise with parents and and, above all else, of that young lady. 27WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 28WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) 2.52 pm data we have, it is estimated that disabled children make up one third of the out-of-school population across the Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I congratulate world. the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing this excellent debate and on his contribution to I want to set our debate in the context of what is it; there was little, if anything, that I disagreed with in happening to disabled children across the world. I do what he had to say. It is a real shame that there are not not think that we can afford to be smug about this issue more Members in this Chamber. I suspect that we are in the UK. We require disabled children to attend preaching to the faithful. school, but far too often we provide for disabled children by segregating them in special schools. In my experience, I will start by quoting from article 26 of the universal too many of those schools have low expectations of declaration of human rights, which the UK signed back their pupils, and I say that as a supporter of special in 1948. Back then, we said: schools—I am a strong supporter of inclusion, but it “Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, must sit firmly on a foundation of good special schools. at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary However, in my experience, even in 2014 too many of education shall be compulsory.” our special schools have low expectations of children So, 66 years ago we signed up to free primary education with disabilities. for all—not just for those in the developed world, or Even those countries that we consider progressive those who could afford it, or those who were not and enlightened often have a far worse record than we disabled, but all children. However, for many children, do. The hon. Member for Ceredigion mentioned that particularly those living in the developing world, that is the UK is something of a beacon of good practice in as far away from becoming a reality as it was 66 years this regard. I am a member of the Education Committee. ago. Last year—or the year before; I am not sure—we travelled Even in countries where children get access to primary to Denmark. When I asked what percentage of children education, millions do not complete it, or else leave with disabilities there attended special schools, I was school with limited skills and poor levels of reading and told it was 6% of the school population. I was amazed; writing because the quality of teaching is variable, to in the UK, 1% of our children attend special schools. say the least. Women and girls fare poorly, with less That means a huge number of children in this country than 50% of girls making it to secondary education in are attending mainstream schools and having their needs some African countries. Across the world, women make met very well in those schools. up almost two thirds of the 796 million adults without I never quite got the previous Secretary of State for even the most basic literacy and numeracy skills. Education to accept this point, but when we look at the PISA—the programme for international student Although those statistics in themselves are awful, as assessment—tables we are not comparing like with like. has already been pointed out, the children who fare In this country 1% of children with disabilities attend worst in this situation are those with disabilities. The special schools, but 6% or more do so in some of the United Nations millennium development goals committed jurisdictions at the top of the PISA tables, and in to providing universal, free primary education for all countries such as Singapore or China disabled children children by 2015, yet we are still short of 1.8 million never get access to mainstream schools at all. teachers to deliver that, with 1 million needed in sub- Saharan Africa alone. That situation is unsatisfactory On that trip to Denmark, we clearly looked shocked for everyone, but for disabled children and their families when we learned that fact, and officials were quick to the picture is far worse. Disabled children are far more tell us that they were going to do something about the likely to be out of education than the general populace situation because they recognised that it could not and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, continue. I then asked how many children attending Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said eloquently, special schools in Denmark went on to university.Basically, a disabled girl has virtually no chance at all of going to the officials said it was none, as children from special school. schools went on to get Government pensions, by which they meant benefits. Although the situation is better in For those few disabled children who get access to the developed world, when it comes to disabled children, education, what is provided is far from appropriate and none of us can afford to be smug. in the vast majority of cases falls well short of meeting Most disabled children in the developing world who their educational needs. I was pleased that the hon. manage to go to school face learning in segregated Member for Ceredigion spoke about physical access, schools with very large class sizes, poor teaching from which is part of the issue, but making education accessible teachers with inadequate training and skills, and a lack in terms of access to the curriculum and an inclusive of resources. We know that education is fundamental to culture is as important—if not more so—as ramps, reducing and ending poverty. Good quality, free education wider doors and so on. should be the right of every child, including every The UN convention on the rights of persons with disabled child. More than anything else, education has disabilities has forced some recognition of the rights of the power to transform lives, and will help economic disabled people to be involved in their own development. development and poverty relief, contribute to social It places an obligation on signatories, including the stability and promote global health. We know that UK, to ensure that their overseas aid programmes children whose mothers have received five years of include disabled people. However, the millennium education are 40% more likely to live beyond five years development goals are largely silent on disabled learning, of age. That is as true for a disabled child as it is for and so miss out a whole 15% of the world’s population. every other child. Data on this subject are not good—although I congratulate I call on DFID to introduce a disability strategy that the Department for International Development on its gives disabled people full and inclusive access to its recent work to improve data—but even from the poor programmes, with clear baselines, milestones and success 29WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 30WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) criteria. The strategy should make it easier to access subject and her absolute determination to achieve for funding for programmes that support disabled learning, children not just in this country but around the world. I and should make sure that all mainstream civil society agree with so much that has been said. It is good, organisations that DFID funds do the same. To do that, helpful and right that we can speak as one across parties DFID must build a larger team of disability specialists, on such an important issue as the rights of children so that it can champion disability learning in its programmes, with disabilities wherever they are in the world. provide disability training for its own staff and even—here We know from our constituency experience how often is a revolutionary idea—employ a few disabled staff in disability is closely tied to poverty or disadvantage. The its programmes overseas. matter is being discussed on the Floor of the House I welcome the Government’s response and commitment now. In the developing world, that problem is magnified to the report by the Select Committee on International many times, and when reading the International Development. DFID has argued that a disability strategy Development Committee’s recent report on disability I is not the right approach and prefers to take a more was struck by what Professor Groce of University College holistic view in its social inclusion programme. London said: Before I came to Parliament in 2010, though not “If one goes into the poorest…slum or the most marginalized immediately before, I was the person who turned up in a rural village and asks ‘who is the poorest person in your community’? school or local authority the week after a school had one will almost invariably be directed to the household of a gone into special measures and the senior management person with a disability.” team had gone. The two things I did immediately were: The World Bank estimates that eight out of 10 disabled first, make friends with the secretaries, because they people live in developing countries, and that people made life bearable; and secondly, put together a strategic with disabilities make up 20% of the world’s poorest plan with clear goals for what I would achieve and by people. In reality, I suspect that that figure is probably when. I then measured periodically how far I had an underestimate. The great philosopher and economist, achieved those goals. The bottom line is that what gets Amartya Sen, has pointed out that the poverty line for measured gets done. Taking a holistic approach disabled people is significantly higher than for many generally means faffing about a bit with nothing really other people because, as we recognise in our social changing. Only a strong framework setting out clear security system, the cost of day-to-day life is often goals, milestones and success criteria, and measuring inflated by the sheer fact of disability. impact, is the only way to change things. Anything else The debate today is focused specifically on education is just nice warm words. Will the Minister be brave and for children and young people with disabilities and with ambitious today? good reason, as we have heard. In many cases, young I started by quoting from article 26 of the universal people with disabilities in developing nations find themselves declaration of human rights from way back in 1948. doubly disadvantaged, living in nations where youth Sometimes it feels as though we had greater aspirations unemployment may be as high as seven or eight in 10, and hopes for our children and ourselves back in 1948. where poverty wages are most prevalent among the We were living in a time of austerity, and the UK was young, where access to education remains far too low, practically bankrupt and saddled with massive debts and where young people disproportionately lack access after fighting total war for five years, but we had ambitions to health, or are more likely to face violence and for ourselves and our children. We created the NHS, a displacement. On each and every one of those counts, a welfare system with a safety net for the poor and a free, young person with a disability is more likely to be compulsory education system for our children. We had negatively affected. a commitment to provide the same for others throughout It is often suggested that the very welcome forward the world. The Minister can be the new Clem Attlee. movement in poverty reduction that has been achieved What better time to rediscover the same ambition, under the auspices of the millennium development goals aspiration and courage we had in 1948, and to secure has in part been a case of picking the lowest hanging the universal free education for every child, including fruit and upping the incomes of those closest to the disabled children, that this country has promised to poverty line. If that is the case, young disabled people deliver, but has failed to for more than 60 years? are perhaps the hardest to reach among that group. A key focus of the sustainable development goals that will 3.2 pm replace the millennium development goals next year Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): It is a great must be to address the hardest parts of poverty reduction, pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship. to ensure that no one is left behind and to include It is also slightly intimidating to follow two former within the development agenda help to bring those with teachers. In my duties as a Member of Parliament, I am disabilities out of disadvantage and poverty, not simply never more nervous of my presenting skills than when focusing on income, although financial disadvantage is following teachers. I congratulate the hon. Member for significant. I agree that education for the most excluded Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing this debate on people in society must be at the heart of what we try to such an important issue. do in the coming year within the sustainable development It is true for many people that we remember the goals. people who taught us, although I am sure that they do I do not want to dwell on the negative, but there is no not remember the many hundreds of children they question but that being disabled as a child in a developing taught. It shows the great contribution made by former country makes them far less likely to access education. members of the teaching profession in the House and Some of the figures are startling and bear repeating. we should be proud of that, not least the contribution Some 85% of children not in school in Nepal are by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham disabled and only 3% of disabled children in Ethiopia (Pat Glass) who, as ever, showed her expertise on the complete primary education. Ethiopia has made great 31WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 32WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) [Alison McGovern] also become concrete actions? Will DFID country offices report back frequently on how they are supporting and strides in poverty reduction, but still only 3% of disabled including disabled people? children make it through primary education. For those I have a further question on some of the practicalities. who do receive education, the correlation between disability Does the Minister believe that DFID has the skills base and poor outcomes is striking. genuinely to develop world-leading disability policy? As The underlying reasons are manifold, but all too we have heard, the UK plays a proud role in the field, often are based on negative attitudes and discrimination. and we want to see Britain at the heart of new thinking. Disabled children are hidden away or placed in segregated In response to the Select Committee, the Department education and Governments provide low prioritisation promised to increase the number of disability specialist or split responsibilities for the education of disabled staff, but only to two. In comparison, 21 staff are children. Teacher training is vital in poorer countries, working on gender issues. I have absolutely no interest particularly in helping disabled children to meet their in playing gender off against disability, because they are potential. Those fundamental problems must be placed both vital issues, but the comparison is striking. Does at the centre of development policy. the Minister think that the Department has the advice and support it needs on disability issues? The Government inherited a strong focus in DFID on disability issues. In 2000, Britain became the first In conclusion, this has been a useful debate on a donor to develop guidance notes on disability-inclusive crucial issue. DFID has a good track record on disability programming and specifically on education for children issues within development, and I feel sure we can be a with disabilities. In 2008, we were the inaugural donors world leader. However, we need a genuine commitment to the Disability Rights Fund. The Government have throughout the run-up to the next set of development continued to take important steps. In particular, I welcome goals to make sure that the global development agenda on behalf of the Opposition the decision to require all is clearly based on the principle of “no person left behind”. school building funded through DFID programmes to incorporate the principles of universal design and to Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The Deputy tackle the huge data gaps on children with disabilities Leader of the House has many interesting roles to and education. It can be hard to get people excited perform in life, but today’s might be one of the more about data, but they are at the heart of developing interesting, because he is standing in for Lynne Featherstone effective policy in this and every other development and he has been asked to be Clement Attlee, so let us see area. The sustainable development goals have the potential how it turns out. to take forward our ambitions for the poorest people in the world, so they must be rigorously data focused. 3.13 pm The sustainable development goals will, I hope, address The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom the fact that the millennium development goals noticeably Brake): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, failed to mention disability as an issue to be addressed. I Mr Hollobone. I am indeed playing a rather unusual would, however, offer a warning. The fact of having role today, but it is refreshing to be taking part in a something codified does not guarantee progress in itself. consensual debate, with cross-party agreement about The Indian constitution directly protects disabled people what DFID does. I wish the same could have been said from discrimination, but in few nations are disabled about our debates on the Bill that became the Transparency people more discriminated against than in India. of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union We want the sustainable development goals to be Administration Act 2014, for which I was one of the focused in a way that encourages development that responsible Ministers. The House’s consideration of the works for all, including the most marginalised groups. Recall of MPs Bill has also not involved the unanimous The UN high-level panel recommended that the post-2015 cross-party support demonstrated in this debate. goals should specifically state that no target should be We heard about the background of the participants considered met unless it is met for all social groups, to the debate, which I congratulate my hon. Friend the including people with disabilities. The Government have Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing. I publicly backed the inclusion of such a caveat, and I was interested to hear about his past life as a teacher. support them in doing so, but it has disappeared from Indeed, the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat the outcomes document of the UN open working group Glass) was also a teacher. I have not been a teacher, on sustainable development, which was published in although both my parents were at some point in their July. Will the Minister therefore update us on where the working careers, so we are all in good company. Given negotiations stand on ensuring that the sustainable that this is a cross-party, consensual debate, I would like development goals do, indeed, work for all and do to acknowledge the role that the Labour Government encourage Governments worldwide to tackle some of played in helping us to get to our current position in the hardest development issues, including education for respect of international development, our spending on children with disabilities? it and the prominent role we play on it internationally. If we are to be successful in encouraging other nations— I do not think that I am going to be the next Clem donors and recipients—DFID must lead the way. In its Attlee, but those of us in this select group of Members recent response to the Select Committee report, it promised of Parliament can play an important role in making to publish a DFID disability framework in November. sure the priority that successive Governments have placed Will the Minister confirm that the Department is on on international development remains. There is an awful track to publish that framework and that education will lot of pressure on the international development budget, be a key focus? Will he set out how the Department will and one prominent party—the UK Independence party— ensure that what will no doubt be the finest of words would, if it had its way and was represented in large 33WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 34WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) numbers in this place, simply seek to do away with it, or Mr Mark Williams: On the first of those points and at least a significant part of it, even though one can only the issue of cross-departmental responsibilities, and imagine what impact that would have on things such as given the visits that my right hon. Friend has made to Ebola. I therefore welcome the fact that we are having a Ghana—hon. Members have no doubt visited other consensual debate. I also congratulate my hon. Friend countries where this would apply—does he share my on the role he plays as co-chair of the all-party group, frustration that in the Government Departments of which monitors these issues. countries I have been to there is all too often a silo My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State mentality, meaning that that the issue gets lost? Kind for International Development is in Bangladesh on a and generous words can be heard in health, social departmental visit, and my right hon. Friend the Minister services and education Departments, but action on the of State, Department for International Development, is ground is impeded by a failure to work together. I in Berlin at a conference on the Syrian refugee crisis. should be grateful for anything we can do to encourage They have asked me to pass on their apologies for not countries to leave the silo mentality behind. being able to attend this important debate, but the issue is a particular priority for the Department, and my Tom Brake: I agree entirely, but even in a well-run right hon. Friends will pay close attention to the debate Government such as ours, there is still always a risk that and respond to any points that I do not have a chance to there will be a silo mentality and that Departments will deal with. If I have any credentials at all in terms of my not communicate with each other as would entirely ability to respond to the debate, they will be that I was befit them. There are ways for us to help, but we have the Liberal Democrat international development spokesman not managed to perfect that even within UK borders. for a number of years. The third of the four challenges is that we struggle to In the global context, disability continues, as we have understand the extent of the problem, because of a lack heard, to be one of the primary causes of educational of disaggregated data by sex, type of disability and level disadvantage and exclusion, creating the largest single of functioning. That makes educational planning for group of girls and boys who remain out of school. Even inclusive learning extremely difficult. Linked to that, in those countries close to achieving universal primary the evidence base on learning outcomes for inclusive enrolment, children with disabilities continue to miss education for children with disabilities focuses largely out on education and, as a consequence, on opportunities on high-income countries—particularly the US and to access meaningful employment and a sustainable UK—and there are challenges in identifying good-quality route out of poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for evidence from low and middle-income countries. Finally, Ceredigion cited an example of a school with a ramp, there has been a lack of the political will and commitment but said that in practice, however, if any child managed needed to drive improvements in learning for children to get into that school in a wheelchair, they would not with disabilities, and that has limited the ability of physically be able to get into the classroom because of Governments, donors and others to assess, monitor and overcrowding. Anyone, including me, who has been on address the situation of those children. such visits abroad—in my case to Ghana—will know that a very basic school with little more than mud floors I am pleased to say that the UK is at the forefront of will not be an ideal environment for someone with a seeking to address those challenges. Through DFID’s disability to access education. work, the UK is committed to ensuring that all children What is positive is that all Members have probably are able to complete a full cycle of quality education, been lobbied in the past few months by school children and we are increasingly focusing on the most marginalised in their constituencies about the need to ensure that all as part of the “leave no one behind” agenda, which young people, including those with a disability, go to includes a special focus on children with disabilities. In school. I certainly have, and I congratulate St Mary’s in September 2013, we made two public commitments: Carshalton, which joined the Send All My Friends to first, to ensure that all directly funded school construction School campaign. The school asked me to go along and is fully accessible; and, secondly, to work with partners receive the cut-out figures the children had created of to improve data on children with disabilities and special pupils and to send them off to the Prime Minister. I did educational needs in and out of education. My hon. that, and I am pleased that he responded to the pupils’ Friend the Member for Ceredigion and the Opposition letters about that important campaign. spokesman, the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison The challenges involved in ensuring that disabled McGovern), made the point that getting quality data is children can learn are fourfold. First, responsibility for one of the keys. It is not possible to deal with a children with disabilities in the countries in which we challenge without knowing the scale of it, and it is fair work is divided across education, health and social to say that at the moment we do not. protection, which often results in a focus on social Across DFID’s global and country programmes we welfare and special treatment, rather than on inclusion are supporting a range of activities to support access to and equity. Secondly, there are often school-level barriers, education and learning for children with disabilities. including physical access, inflexible and inappropriate Depending on the context, we are working through curriculums, inadequate teacher training—that has been either partner Governments or local and international mentioned frequently in the debate—and discriminatory partners. In the majority of our programmes we support attitudes that reinforce the marginalisation of children an inclusive approach to ensure that all children can be with disabilities. Again, my hon. Friend the Member for educated in mainstream schools. In our most mature Ceredigion referred to that. It is not simply a question and innovative programmes, such as Pakistan’s Punjab of providing accessible schools; it is also about changing programme, we are looking at new partnerships with the mentality of some of the people responsible for respect to children with learning disabilities. The Pakistan ensuring that children get to school and, once there, are office is currently assessing the feasibility of implementing fully involved in the educational process. our school construction standards in the £104 million 35WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 Education for Young People with 36WH Disabilities (UK Aid) Disabilities (UK Aid) [Tom Brake] learning topic guide. Once the framework has been developed, we will consider how we can continue to reconstruction and rehabilitation programme. Current upskill our country staff. That is work in progress. projections indicate that 50,000 classrooms may be At the global level, we are working closely with the reconstructed or rehabilitated. That work is really about World Bank, the Global Partnership for Education, extending the present programme of ensuring that all UNICEF,Australia, Germany, Sweden, the United States new schools are fully accessible. DFID’s policy on accessible Agency for International Development and Norway to construction has since triggered similar commitments ensure that more countries eligible for GPE funds implement among other global partners, including UNICEF. an inclusive approach to education, with a specific Often children can suffer many types of disadvantage. focus on children with disabilities. Our influencing efforts DFID’s girls’ education challenge, which targets the made disability a priority for the June replenishment of most marginalised girls, is funding disability-focused the GPE. Twelve countries pledged at that event to do projects in Uganda, Kenya and Sierra Leone, totalling more for children with disabilities, including Democratic more than £9 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Kenya, Pakistan, Ceredigion referred to that and asked whether DFID Senegal, Sierra Leone, Zambia and Ghana. would be able to create a disability education challenge My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is an fund. I suppose the answer is that the girls’ fund is unrelenting champion for children with disabilities and clearly a new model, which has not been tried before, to I know that she raises the issue at every opportunity, in ensure that 1 million of the most marginalised girls get every meeting, with ministerial counterparts when she the quality education that they deserve by 2016. As it is travels to partner countries. I do not know, but I imagine a new programme, its effectiveness will need to be that she has travelled to Nigeria recently. My hon. assessed, and we perhaps need to get through that Friend the Member for Ceredigion raised the issue of challenge before we embark on a new disability education disability not being mentioned in the business case for challenge fund. However, I shall draw the proposal to the Nigeria education programme. I reassure him that the attention of my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. the programme is in line with DFID’s three priorities in education: improving learning, focusing on girls and My hon. Friend talked about disaggregated data. ensuring that the most marginalised can learn. DFID There is a critical gap with respect to evidence and data business cases are used primarily to assess the evidence on disability prevalence, on which DFID is focusing. As on and financial basis of programmes, and do not he will know, the Government hosted an important contain all the detailed information on programme conference jointly with the UN on 23 October to improve delivery. Disability will clearly be part of the programme. disability statistics. During the conference we committed to developing guidance on disability data disaggregation The International Development Committee’s recent with the UN’s Washington group on disability statistics. inquiry into DFID’s work on disability recognised that We are certainly working towards the goal that my hon. we are doing some impressive work already, but that Friend set out of ensuring that disaggregated data are more ambition would be transformational. DFID is available, and that we can identify where the key problems committed to developing a framework to strengthen are and what is effective in ensuring that education our work on disability further, and it will be published reaches the most disadvantaged. To improve education- on 3 December—I think that my hon. Friend referred specific data, we are supporting UNESCO’s institute to the end of November. for statistics in regularly publishing education indicators My hon. Friend asked how the framework would be disaggregated by specific population groups, including implemented. As he knows, we have made two public people with disabilities, and in developing new standards commitments: first, about accessible schooling; and, for school censuses and surveys related to marginalised secondly, about improving disability data. Through the populations. second commitment, we are working to develop disability- sensitive indicators, which currently do not exist, to As hon. Members know, the true benefits of education measure progress on disability-sensitive education and accrue only if children achieve good learning outcomes. inclusive learning. That is how we will be able to monitor Our recently published inclusive learning topic guide that things are, in fact, working, and that this is not just brings together for the first time evidence on what fine words without matched fine action, to which the works in inclusive learning for children aged 3 to 12 years hon. Member for Wirral South referred. in low and middle-income countries. It focuses on the I thank the hon. Lady for her support. I am sure that varied learning needs of children who either are not the teachers present will have given her top marks for benefiting from the learning opportunities available to her presentation, so I do not think she needed to worry them, or do not have the opportunity to engage in about that. I hope I have answered most of her questions, learning at all, owing to their impairments and disabilities. but I might need to return to her point about whether It explores the role of inclusive approaches in contributing DFID has the skills base to develop disability policy. If to inclusive societies and, ultimately, inclusive growth, I do not get inspiration about that point, I will make and addresses some of the contested and debated issues sure that my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary around terminology, discrimination, and segregated and hears that that is a particular concern, and I am sure inclusive schooling. The topic guide supplements our that she will want to respond directly. As my right hon. guidance note on educating children with disabilities, Friend makes disability issues a priority, however, I am and both resources are available freely to all policy sure that she would not want a situation in which there makers. were not the necessary skills in her Department to deal My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion and the with that critical issue. hon. Member for North West Durham asked what was As the 20th anniversary of the Salamanca framework being done to train staff in inclusion. DFID is rolling for action passes, we must ensure that co-ordinated out training to its in-country staff on the inclusive action from Governments, donors and other key 37WH Education for Young People with 28 OCTOBER 2014 38WH Disabilities (UK Aid) stakeholders is able to secure better access to schooling Furness Line and inclusive learning outcomes for disabled children, as well as wider benefits for inclusive societies. The 4pm economic and social costs of exclusion are high. Many low and middle-income economies suffer greater losses Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a from maintaining large out-of-school populations than huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, they would from increasing public spending to achieve Mr Hollobone. As I give the Minister time to settle, I universal primary enrolment. It is clear that enrolling advise her that I will be sitting down sooner than I all children in basic education is a productive and smart would otherwise in order to let the hon. Member for investment. The economic benefits of education are Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), my friend and well established and the inclusive growth to which it can constituency neighbour, contribute to this debate, which contribute is, by definition, grounded in societies that is at least as important to his constituency as to mine. are open, equitable, tolerant and just. The Furness line is a vital rail route through my As I have just received inspiration, I can say in constituency. It is an arterial route used by residents in response to the hon. Member for Wirral South that the Kent estuary and across the wider Cartmel peninsula. DFID has increased the specialist headquarters staff to I am therefore grateful for this opportunity to highlight two. We also have a secondee into the Australian the large challenges facing the line and, as a result, the Government, who are world leaders on disability policy. communities and the economy to which it is so vital. I There has been some strengthening of the team but, will talk about the future of the line, its immense none the less, my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary significance to the local and national economy, the need may want to respond to that point in writing. for new investment and the need for the Department for Recognising and valuing diversity within learning Transport to take seriously the responses to its recent communities and welcoming all children into the classroom stakeholder consultation on the TransPennine Express must be pivotal components in all learning strategies. and Northern Rail franchises. Leaving no one behind at school and in wider society is The Furness line takes passengers and freight from essential not only to a sustainable approach to development the main line at Lancaster through to Barrow, with the and poverty eradication, but to the attainment of the largest section of the line running through my constituency freedoms, dignity, tolerance and respect that are and the South Lakeland district. There are stations fundamental to our common humanity. at Arnside, Grange-over-Sands, Kents Bank and Cark, which are well used and take tourists, commuters 3.33 pm and schoolchildren, among others, to and from destinations Sitting suspended. along this economically vital and uniquely picturesque line. I am hugely indebted to the work of those who put together the exhaustive 90-page Furness line study created by the Railway Consultancy Ltd, which the Minister displays. The study was supported by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness. The Minister has already seen the report, but as she has demonstrated, I made a point of forwarding an additional copy to her ahead of this debate. The Minister will see that the report is dedicated to the memory of Peter Robinson, whose sudden death on 6 August devastated all of us who knew him. Peter was chair of the Furness Line Community Rail Partnership and the source of all knowledge and wisdom on Furness line matters. I was with him at a meeting on the future of the Furness line just a day or three before he passed away. It was an honour to know Peter, and he is hugely missed. The report that Peter helped to author is an extremely important piece of work. I am a regular user of the line, but I was nevertheless shocked by the full extent of the failings of the current transport infrastructure and its wider impacts. The report concludes that the Furness line is not fit to meet present demand, much less to cope with the expected population and employment booms in Barrow and Ulverston in the coming years, which I am sure the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness will talk about in due course. We are committed to working together across parties to build a future-proof Furness line. As well as thanking those who created the report, I thank its funders—local councils, businesses and rail operators—and the hon. Gentleman, whose work has been instrumental in bringing the report to fruition, 39WH Furness Line28 OCTOBER 2014 Furness Line 40WH

[Tim Farron] Moorside. It accurately envisages significant increases in local population and employment, due in part to the and whose commitment to defending the line is second far-sighted and successful land allocation strategy of to none. The report highlights the line’s short-term and South Lakeland district council. The report is also long-term needs. In the short term, the report calls for correct in foreseeing that industrial developments for the urgent return of the two-hourly Manchester airport major employers at Ulverston will lead to a 16% increase service and additional trains during the tourist season. in jobs over the next few years, and that all those people Given that this is the line that serves the western Lake will need to get to work. district, I hope the Minister will publicly indicate her There can be no doubt that demand will continue to support and give a clear signal to the rail operators that rise. In the longer term, a regular hourly local service residents, commuters, the vastly important tourism sector calling at all stations needs to be supplemented by faster and the wider business community all need the service. regional services to and from Manchester airport. The The report also suggests a rationalised timetable and lakes line between Oxenholme and Windermere is scheduled highlights the inadequate number of trains between to be electrified in 2016; the study suggests that an Barrow and Lancaster on weekday mornings, which increase in the number of trains on the Furness line prevents residents from commuting by train. The would justify its eventual electrification by 2030. Virgin undermining of the line in recent times is apparent in Trains should be asked to investigate the operation of the fact that the Barrow to Manchester airport service through-to-London services from Barrow, with their has reduced from eight to five trains a day; the Manchester introduction possibly on an initial two-to-three-year airport to Barrow service has been reduced from 10 to “use it or lose it” basis. Will the Minister use her good five trains a day since 2007. offices to help us make that case to Virgin Trains? Manchester is the business capital of the north-west. Industrial growth, an expansion in resident populations Barrow-in-Furness is at risk of being left as one of the and a huge increase in the tourism economy suggest few major towns in the north of England without that the Furness line’s future should be very bright high-quality direct access to that regional capital and its indeed; the purpose of this debate is to seek the Minister’s international airport. Many of my constituents, particularly help in ensuring that it is. However, as we seek support in Grange, Flookburgh, Cark, Cartmel, Allithwaite and to protect and enhance the line’s long-term future, we Arnside, commute by train and have been hit by that are horrified that short-term decisions in the immediate downgrading. Children who would have had safer, quicker future may fatally undermine that work. journeys to school are now forced to take longer, more costly and more dangerous trips instead. The hugely The Minister will know that the Department’s suggested significant local tourism economy, which is worth £3 billion remapping of the TransPennine Express and Northern a year, has been damaged unnecessarily. I hope that the Rail franchises has undergone a recent stakeholder Minister will be able to give us much more encouraging consultation. She will also know that, along with many news. I would be grateful if she confirmed that she sees others, I responded to that consultation. On behalf of improving the Furness line as being in the long-term my constituents, I once again urge her not to proceed economic interests of the region and the nation, and with the proposed transfer of the Furness and Windermere that its success will be prioritised. lines to the new Northern franchise. She should be clear that making that decision would significantly downgrade The reduction in through trains to and from Manchester the Furness line and would constitute a huge blow to means that many passengers now have to use the our local economy. Manchester to Scotland services between Lancaster and Manchester. The new four-coach electric trains The majority of services on the Furness line are have shorter carriages than the previous three-coach operated by TransPennine Express. Since the announcement class 185 diesels, and the limited increase in capacity is last March that TransPennine Express is to lose its fleet proving to be dramatically insufficient to meet the of nine class 170 units, there has been intense speculation needs of both Scottish and Furness passengers—standing about the effect on train services in the north. Despite is a regular, if not daily, occurrence. Additionally, the efforts to find a solution, there are apparently no spare downgrading of those services has exacerbated problems diesel units available. Unless there is political intervention with bus links, which the Furness line study identifies as at a high level, we could see TransPennine Express move a major issue. Joining up the connections between public out of the Furness line at the timetable change in transport is vital, and I hope that the Minister will give May 2015, when the class 170 units are due to transfer her support to significant improvements. to the south of England. We can only assume that the Furness line will be relegated to being a branch service The study calls for train operators to co-operate with between Barrow and Lancaster, operated by Northern the area’s biggest businesses to ensure that arrivals and from next May using lower-quality trains. departures coincide with shift patterns. The report states: “Timetable analysis shows some very significant failings in the The Minister will know that Northern has accumulated level of service provided… the current service is not fit for a reputation on the Furness line for its high number of purpose, through failing frequency, capacity… We have been cancellations. That has been going on for some years appalled to discover that significant existing markets are not now. I am sure that both the hon. Member for Barrow being addressed, leading to major losses of traffic. The shortfall and Furness and I would be happy to furnish her with in service provision is so great here that there is an overwhelming details of those cancellations. Northern is aware of the case for immediate action.” debate, but still cancels trains. She will understand why Looking to the future, the report has a vision for the residents and business leaders of south Cumbria are line right through to 2030. It takes into account the staggered by the Department for Transport proposal expansion of BAE Systems in Barrow, GlaxoSmithKline that all Furness line trains be transferred to Northern at in Ulverston and the proposed nuclear power station at the commencement of the new franchise in 2016. 41WH Furness Line28 OCTOBER 2014 Furness Line 42WH

The Minister will know that I have written to the contribute. Before I move on to the substantive part of Secretary of State on the matter. I am hopeful that the my speech, I echo his words about Peter Robinson, Department will understand the hugely damaging effect whose death was a sad loss to his family and the that such a transfer would have. Will she agree to community. rethink the suggestion and consider retaining TransPennine There has been much talk about investment in the Express services on the Furness line? I am sure that the northern rail network over the past few days, but once Minister will agree that at a time when we need the again, the so-called HS3 proposal concentrates on linking Furness line to be geared to the forthcoming high level the major cities of the north, ignoring smaller towns of investment and job expansion in the area, the initial and communities. It comes down to the kind of country proposals make depressing news indeed. [Interruption.] we want to be. If we are not prepared to see smaller communities decline and fade, it is not good enough Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid just to say it. Our rail links in the south Lakeland and that the signal has turned to red and we must all get off Furness area are just as vital as those anywhere else, and the train, but we will get back on when the Division is yet in the case of the Furness line they are under threat over, and we will add the lost time to the debate. of being downgraded. 4.10 pm Amazing things are happening in south and west Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Cumbria in addition to the great potential of the visitor economy. We have the most advanced manufacturing 4.17 pm in the country at Barrow shipyard, which will be taking on an extra 1,000 people in the years to come; civil On resuming— nuclear expansion up the west coast; cutting-edge biopharmaceuticals at GlaxoSmithKline in Ulverston; Tim Farron: It continues to be a pleasure to serve offshore wind; and increased estimates of gas reserves under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. Given the in the Irish sea. This is an economy powered by strategic importance of the Furness line and the clear entrepreneurial talent and an incredibly skilled work and impressive expansion of demand into the future, force, but we need the Government to play a role in surely now is the time to plan to upgrade services, not tackling our biggest challenge, which is geographic isolation. downgrade them. Nothing would strengthen confidence in the line more than a commitment to electrification. We know that the Government can act. Just yesterday, Will the Minister help provide that confidence by setting Ministers confirmed £2.8 million to rescue the air link out a timetable for electrification of the Furness line, between Newquay and Gatwick. In many ways, the and will she give us an undertaking that at the very least south-west peninsula’s transport situation resembles that a feasibility study will be done of that electrification of south and west Cumbria, and yet the potential project? economic, energy, defence, and research and development I want us to be positive and optimistic about rail contribution to the nation that would be unlocked by services in Cumbria, in north Lancashire and across the the Furness line is significantly greater than that of whole region. This week’s talk of High Speed 3 is music links in the south-west peninsula. to my ears, although the suggestion that it might only I am proud to have launched the Cumbria Better be an enhanced line from Manchester to Leeds is somewhat Connected campaign, and to have seen the way that underwhelming. An HS3 to boost northern England people have rallied around it. When I questioned the would run from Hull to Liverpool, creating a coast-to-coast Secretary of State for Transport last week, he promised corridor of growth. Electrification of the lakes line to read our report carefully; in truth, he may have shows that our ambition in the south lakes has paid off, meant that he wanted the Minister who is here today to but that optimism is challenged when it comes to the read it carefully. The report makes it clear that not only Furness line. I want that to change. The line serves a is the current service on the Furness route already uniquely booming industry, Britain’s most important below the required standard but that the threat to direct tourist destination—the Lake district—and a growing services to Manchester and its critically important and vibrant residential and commercial community in international airport has the potential to damage our South Lakeland. There is no logical reason for the economy severely, putting in jeopardy all our amazing Furness line to be anything other than equally booming. potential. My plea to the Minister is to use her influence to prevent the mistakes that would undermine that success, My constituents have already seen our rail service and to instead back a winner. deteriorate in recent years. In addition to the cuts to services that my hon. Friend outlined, we have of course Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): We lost seven seen the reintroduction on the line of the depressing minutes to the Division, so the debate will now finish Pacer units, which are 30-year-old buses on rail bogies at 4.37 pm, which means that the halfway point will be and which are completely unsuited to journeys of more at 4.22 pm. than an hour along the Furness line. Now the axe hovers over the direct service to Manchester again. The 4.19 pm recently closed consultation about the new specifications for the Northern and TransPennine franchises raises the John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): possibility of removing Barrow and Ulverston’s direct It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, trains to Manchester entirely, downgrading them to Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for stopping services or diverting them away from the airport. Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing Electrification of the rest of the TransPennine network this debate, on making such an excellent case, on being leaves Furness as a diesel outlier that is under threat of generous in his words and on giving me the chance to returning to a branch line, which is hardly fitting or 43WH Furness Line28 OCTOBER 2014 Furness Line 44WH

[John Woodcock] and Furness so eloquently put it, the line is about not only taking people to see wonderful scenery, tourist suitable for an area that is about to receive industrial opportunities and wildlife, but providing a vital economic investment on the scale of the investment in the London artery for south Cumbria. Olympics. I was struck by page five of the report to which the I would be grateful if the Minister could answer the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale referred, following questions. When will the Government publish which says that the Furness line has a “twofold” purpose: their response to the consultation on the Northern and “To carry local traffic, and to provide a…link to the regional TransPennine franchises? Will she listen to the clearly centre of Manchester and its airport.” expressed voices of the passengers and businesses in the That is absolutely right, and I recognise all the work area saying that a fast, regular and high-quality direct that the community rail partnership has done to promote service from Barrow to Manchester airport is essential the service locally and to improve the station facilities. for the area? Will the next franchise holder be provided We already see that work starting to come through. with modern and fast diesel units, enabling them to However, I also recognise the disappointment that was operate on the busy west coast main line, regardless of caused when the through services between Barrow and whether those services are part of the TransPennine or Manchester were reduced in May. Northern franchises? Given the ongoing need for such One thing I have learned in this job is that our rail units in the north on routes such as the Furness line, network is terribly complicated. We end up with all will the Minister prevent any further transfer of express sorts of dependencies against a backdrop of unprecedented diesel trains to other areas, which—as my hon. Friend passenger growth. There has been a doubling of passenger has said—happened with nine TransPennine units that growth in the past 20 years, and in this particular area, moved to the Chilterns? Will she commit to the removal the fare-box revenue—the value of growth—went up by of Pacer units from the Furness line at the very earliest 6.4% just last year. Indeed, some of the most crowded opportunity, please? And finally, so that representatives services in the country are now outside London. Against of Cumbria do not have to restage this battle every few that backdrop, may I say that we have had decades of years, will she ensure that, as my hon. Friend suggested, under-investment? Investment has failed to keep up a serious study of the economics and practicalities of with the growth, so we end up with operators struggling electrifying the Furness line features in future Network to deal with some of that growth and sometimes having Rail work programmes? to make decisions about reorganising train services. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I call the Minister In this case, as we know, the reduction in the through with responsibility for rail to respond to the debate. service was prompted by the launch of the new timetable for TransPennine Express, which takes advantage of the widely acclaimed electrification between Manchester 4.24 pm and Scotland. That allowed for an increase in services, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport including a fifth TransPennine Express train each hour (Claire Perry): Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for calling between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York. However, me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your that had the consequence that some other services were chairmanship; the phrase “the Thin Controller”is running lost, although the Furness line’s services to Manchester through my mind. airport are still over and above the minimum set out by First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Westmorland the 2014 passenger requirement. and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing the debate and the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) John Woodcock: I guess that the Minister’s previous on his stirring contribution. It is quite clear that everyone comment is, in very strict terms, true, but the services who is in Westminster Hall loves their trains and is are above the minimum requirement only because her passionate about the railway. I also pay my own tribute Government changed that requirement by radically taking to Mr Robinson for all he did in working with the group it downwards. that secured, saved and promoted what is a vital railway Claire Perry: Part of the direction of travel is to allow line. The Furness Line Community Rail Partnership operators to change services, especially when there is has done sterling work over the years, as indeed has the unmet demand, and I shall say a little about the overall Furness Line Action Group, whose reports and submissions structure of the TransPennine franchise. However, in a my team and I have gratefully received and read. way it is a testament to the busyness and value of the Community rail is a vital and innovative part of the line that the operator decided to deliver over and above rail industry. It gives responsibility for services to local the service requirement. Of course, there is still a vital people who care so much about them. On this line in weekday peak-time morning service from Manchester, particular, community rail provides a wonderful—indeed which is timed to arrive before 11 am. unique—travel experience for passengers. I myself use a I reassure the hon. Members for Westmorland and wonderful line—it runs down to Pewsey, Bedwyn and Lonsdale and for Barrow and Furness that the reduction beyond—but although Wiltshire offers beautiful scenery of services in no way reflects the importance that the of white horses, we cannot offer passengers anything on Government place on the line. Let me put things in the scale of the Furness line. Of course, it is for that context. As I said, the national network suffered from reason that the Furness line particularly boosts tourism, decades of under-investment, and we have been dealing as it helps us to show off some of Britain’s most with huge growth in passenger numbers on an ageing beautiful areas. and intensively used network throughout the country. We do not want community rail simply to survive. We That is why we need High Speed 2, of which I am a want it to thrive, and that most certainly goes for the strong supporter, not only because it will reduce journey Furness line. However, as the hon. Member for Barrow times, but because it will deliver vital increases in capacity 45WH Furness Line28 OCTOBER 2014 Furness Line 46WH to these north-south links. I also take the point about situation is unfortunate, but there is a huge desire to HS3 being a vital east-west link. The view of the hon. resolve it and to ensure that there is no interruption in Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale that it should rolling stock. go from Hull to Liverpool will be of interest not only to Work is already being led by Network Rail to consider passengers, but to the freight industry, as we have the strategic priorities for further investment for the important freight paths across the country, running next control period, starting from 2019. Again, as the north, south, east and west. That is why the delivery of hon. Member for Barrow and Furness rightly pointed this £40 billion rail modernisation programme—the out, rail investment cannot be thought of in a narrow biggest investment since Victorian times—will transform cost-benefit silo within the Department. We have to services right across the country, especially across the think about gross value added and the vital importance north of England, where there has not been investment of connectivity to economic growth, and such thinking for decades. There will be more capacity, better connectivity, will inform future investment strategies for the railways. shorter journeys, cleaner trains and greater reliability. Of particular interest to the future of the Furness line Hon. Members will have seen the improvements in will be a refresh of the industry’s electrification strategy, the stations to which our constituents travel. The new on which consultation is due next year, and the northern Manchester Victoria station is nearly complete, and route study, on which work is due to start in 2016. I other schemes will follow. I say gently to the hon. understand the importance that the hon. Gentlemen Member for Barrow and Furness that the last time the place on the future electrification of the Furness line. I Northern and TransPennine Express franchises were let hope that they are both aware that the Secretary of in 2003 and 2004 by the then Labour Government, that State announced last December the creation of the was done on a zero-growth and zero-investment basis, northern taskforce, which is made up of three north of which was an incredibly short-sighted decision. If we England MPs and two council leaders nominated by believe in growth throughout the country, we have to Rail North, with representation from Network Rail, to invest in the vital rolling stock that moves people and advise on priorities for the next generation of electrification goods around. I am passionate about the need to change projects in the north of England. The task force is that mindset, which is why these enormous capital chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate investment programmes are coming to fruition. We and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and its members have signed the agreement to provide the first electric include my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian trains on the Northern Rail network at the end of 2014. Swales) and the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie To refresh hon. Members on the timetable for the Hilling). It is considering all remaining non-electrified letting of the franchises, earlier this year we launched rail lines in the north of England, including the Furness the competition for the TransPennine and Northern line. Its interim report is due in early 2015 so that the franchises. The process is due to start in February 2016. recommendations can be put against Network Rail’s Planning for passenger growth and better services will draft electrification strategy. be at the heart of those franchises. Crucially, we are We will continue to hear how the Government are taking the franchises forward in concert with local progressing HS2, which will provide the capacity and authorities. I do not underestimate the importance of connectivity that the country needs in the long term. As the involvement of Rail North and Cumbria in specifying I said, the Prime Minister and Chancellor have given what these communities need and what the service their backing to the development of HS3 to create a should look like. We do not want to leave that to northern economic powerhouse. officials sitting in Whitehall. We want local communities I shall try to answer the specific questions asked by to say what is important to them, what services work the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness. If the hon. and what sort of trains are required to run those services. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale would like to The hon. Gentlemen raised a vital point about the write to me about some of the specific things he asked importance of rail to the overall economic vibrancy of today, just to make sure I get the full detail, I would be a region. We cannot think about rail just in a silo. It is a delighted to respond. vital part of stimulating economic growth and also of We are expecting a response to the 20,000 consultation responding to economic growth. As we heard, this is an responses at the same time as the invitation to tender is area that is attracting huge investment from a business published in December. We will of course listen to all point of view. views before taking decisions, and I will be happy to The consultation posed tricky questions about the meet any or all hon. Members affected. New diesel future operation of the Furness line, and is important rolling stock is absolutely vital, and I want to flag up to ask tough questions so that we get answers. We asked that although electrification is a hugely important part about the appropriate number of through services and of the rail strategy, passengers want to be able to get on shuttle services to Lancaster, and the more than 20,000 a train, have a reliable journey and pay a reasonable responses to the consultation that we received enable us amount for their tickets, and that may well sometimes to see how we can design the specifications for the two involve a diesel train. Even if there is an electrification franchises. I assure hon. Members that we are giving ask further down the line, it should not prohibit us from careful consideration to views that are expressed. They putting in place new investment right now. will understand why I cannot go into details, but the The point about the Pacers—the buses on bogies—which invitation to tender will answer a lot of the questions, I saw lined up at Doncaster station only last week, was and that will be issued in December. very well made by the hon. Member for Barrow and The question of the class 170s has been raised several Furness, and he is not the first to make it. He will know times. Hon. Members have my personal commitment, that the ITT will ask for a fully priced option to replace along with that of the Department, that the cascade the Pacers. However, I am told, following reading through problem will be solved by the end of the year. The responses to the consultation, that there may be times 47WH Furness Line 28 OCTOBER 2014 48WH

[Claire Perry] UK Visa Applications (Malawi) when the use of a Pacer might be appropriate. Indeed, local communities have said they would rather have a 4.37 pm Pacer than nothing at all. I do not want to make blanket Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ statements about Pacers, but I do take the point about Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship using them on commuter lines, as many people have again, Mr Hollobone. We are debating in the presence explained their shortcomings. of the Malawian high commissioner to the UK, who is I hope I have answered the majority of the questions here to observe our proceedings. I am pleased to have that I have been asked. I hope also that I have been able been able to secure this debate this afternoon. I am to provide some reassurance to the hon. Gentlemen that grateful to the Home Office Minister for being here to the Government are addressing the problems that have respond to it. I am aware that he has a full range of held the railways back in this country, which invented responsibilities. Although Malawi is important to me the railways, for so long. For me and for the Government, and to many other Members of this House, I am sure investment in railways is investment in growth, and that that it is not necessarily at the top of his agenda. I took is just as relevant to the Furness line and to south the opportunity earlier to provide him with a list of the Cumbria— points I want to raise, so I hope he will be able to respond to at least some of those points this afternoon. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry I declare an interest as the co-chair of the all-party to interrupt the hon. Lady, but that debate has pulled group on Zambia and Malawi. I chair the Malawi part. into the station. As I am sure Members are aware, Malawi has strong links, through David Livingstone, with Blantyre in my constituency in Lanarkshire. That is the basis for my interest. It is a long-standing interest also shared by many of my constituents, which is why I am keen to pursue some of the issues this afternoon. I should also say that I am indebted to the Scotland Malawi Partnership, a non-profit organisation in Scotland that works to ensure that relationships between projects and communities seeking to support Malawi are well linked up. It works as a resource for a range of charities, some large and some very small, that support communities in Malawi. It has provided me with some of the case studies and detailed information that I want to touch on this afternoon. This is not a new issue. Through the all-party group, I have been involved in meetings with the Minister’s colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development over the past year to express some of these concerns. Each time, they have said that they understand that there are frustrations, acknowledged the issues and said that the matter was really for the Home Office. That is why I am grateful that a Home Office Minister is here. I hope that he will be able to respond to some of these issues. As the Minister will be aware, there was a short general debate on Malawi last week in the other place. In the debate, Lord McConnell, the former First Minister of Scotland, who was involved in the founding of the Scotland Malawi Partnership, and Lord Steel, the former Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament—I visited Malawi with him and others last year—raised the frustrations that had been expressed to them about the way in which the visa system operates for applicants from Malawi. They did so in the context of a much wider debate on Malawi, which focused on the UK’s relationship with Malawi and the strong community relationships with Malawi that exist in many parts of Scotland. The context is significant for this debate, because the point I want to get across to the Minister is that there is real concern that the relationship is being undermined by the frustration, the difficulty, the bureaucracy and the cumbersome nature of the visa application process, which enables people to visit the UK in support of 49WH UK Visa Applications (Malawi)28 OCTOBER 2014 UK Visa Applications (Malawi) 50WH many charitable, educational and religious projects at a partnership arrangements or exchange visits, often with community and local level. The nature of that relationship schools or Churches and other organisations. They are is important, particularly because with Malawi, due to not part of that wealthy elite. In many cases, they issues that are rightly of concern to the UK Government, struggle to secure a visa when they have a legitimate it is not possible for there to be direct grant aid from reason to visit the UK and are support the underlying Government to Government. A lot of the aid and support Government policy on aid and development in Malawi. is channelled through charitable and other projects. He makes that point very well. That makes the issue even more significant, and the A recent example, provided to me by the Scotland frustration is in danger of undermining the relationship. Malawi Partnership, is the experience of Donald Osborne, As such, there appears to be a contrast between some who has worked with Malawi for a number of years. He of the language and ideals that the Government say was organising a visa for a Malawian teacher to visit underpin their international development efforts and Scotland, and the application was rejected not once but those that inform the way in which this aspect of the twice, and without any notification. That speaks to the immigration system works. They talk about inclusion hon. Gentleman’s intervention. and equality as core principles, yet it is near impossible Malawi is 170th out of 187 in the human development for anyone other than the wealthiest of the urban elite index. In Malawi, around 60% of the population live on in countries across Africa to secure visas to visit the UK. £1 or less a day. For every 1,000 children born, 68 will These visits are often for legitimate purposes. In many die before the age of five. Only 16% of children will circumstances, all the costs are being met by reputable have the opportunity to attend secondary school. The charitable organisations and groups in the UK. They partnerships that Malawi has with the UK, in my are more than happy to provide any assurances that are constituency, in Edinburgh and elsewhere across the needed that the visitor will be there for those purposes UK, promote development to address those issues through and will be able to return at the end of the visit. a person-to-person model. The relationships between I raised an example at a business statement in the individuals, communities and families enhance the House just two weeks ago. Christian Aid held an event effectiveness of Government-to-Government relationships in Parliament to highlight the impact of climate change to tackle poverty. Some of those relationships have been on some of the poorest countries of the world. under strain as a result of the events to which the hon. Representatives from organisations working with Christian Gentleman alluded. Aid from the Philippines, Bolivia and Malawi were due Many aspects of the visa process make it extremely to be at the event, but the Malawian representative was difficult for Malawians to visit the UK. Lord McConnell unable to attend due to problems securing a visa. Sadly, highlighted in the other place last week how damaging that is not unusual. I have heard examples—I know of the application process can be. He asked the Government some personally—of teachers, charity workers and people whether steps could be taken to improve the system. working with Churches being unable to fulfil long-standing The revised system provides a remarkably long, complex partnership engagements in communities across the and often confusing process. The online process requires UK, including in Scotland, because of the changes to details from the applicant and the sponsor and has a the application system for visas from Malawi. detailed application form that requires an extraordinary Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ level of supporting evidence and runs to 15 pages. That Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this it is online is a clear difficulty for many people living in debate. I have come along to endorse what he is saying. Malawi, as access to the internet is often difficult, time I have constituents and organisations in my constituency consuming and expensive. Power supplies and connections that are involved in the Scotland Malawi Partnership are unreliable and unpredictable. and want their concerns raised in the House. I hope that I completely understand the need to be thorough—the the Minister can respond to them. As my hon. Friend process should be thorough—but the Government need has set out, it is not just about projects in Malawi and to be aware that an online system, which seems similar projects elsewhere; this issue is of great concern straightforward from our perspective in the UK and in to those involved in that partnership. I hope we can get Europe, is very much more difficult for those applying some results from the Minister this afternoon. from Malawi, particularly those doing so through the third-party contractor that has been running the system. Tom Greatrex: My hon. Friend makes a good point I know that the operator of that system changed relatively on the growing sense of frustration felt by many of recently. How many complaints have been made about those involved in Malawi on the difficulties people have the online system? Are the Government aware of the had in securing visas to visit the UK. I am sure that the proportion of Malawians who have regular access to Minister will be able to respond to some of these more the internet? Was that taken into account prior to the detailed points as we develop them this afternoon. changes to the system being introduced through Pretoria? Do the Minister and the Home Office have data available Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): on the number of online applications that are started Would it not be odd if citizens in Malawi were being but never completed? deprived of visas to come to the UK when those against whom corruption allegations have been made were still There is also a lengthy series of offline processes, able to secure visas? which include posting passports to another country for assessment. At every stage, the process seems to confuse Tom Greatrex: I assume that the hon. Gentleman is and frustrate many prospective applicants. The minimum alluding to the ongoing investigation into the cost for applications is £144, including the basic visa misappropriation of aid funds in Malawi and more charge. It costs £59 just for an appointment. That widely. He makes an important point. The examples I translates to some 2,500 South African rand or some am talking about are individuals involved in projects, 107,000 Malawian kwacha, which is more than 30 times 51WH UK Visa Applications (Malawi)28 OCTOBER 2014 UK Visa Applications (Malawi) 52WH

[Tom Greatrex] through either employment or family ties, but Malawi has a great deal of poverty and a lack of formal the weekly wage for the average Malawian and for employment—85% of Malawians are subsistence farmers. which there is no refund if the application is unsuccessful. Often, the events that people want to come over and Indeed, I have heard of many cases in which repeat take part in are run by organisations that are willing applications have been made, so how much money has and able to provide any necessary assurances that the been taken through unsuccessful visa applications, in event is the reason why the applicant wants to come particular from people from Malawi? over and that the person will return, but that is almost Furthermore, the move to a cashless system has made impossible to prove in the application process. I hope applying for UK visas in Malawi difficult for many that the Minister will be able to respond to that. people. In debates in the other place, Lord Steel explained Before I conclude, I will outline one recent example. the issues with a cashless system. International credit Members will be aware of the work of Mary’s Meals, cards do not exist in the same way in Malawi, and it is which feeds many people in Malawi and across poorer illegal to pay in rand without the specific permission parts of Africa. The head of programmes for Mary’s and authorisation of the national bank. The Government Meals in Malawi, which currently feeds 690,000 children, are therefore asking people to pay in a currency to was refused a visa on the grounds that he was likely to which they have limited access. That has become a abscond, despite letters from the charity’s UK chief barrier to visa applications and has also worryingly led operating officer, as well as the country director, providing to an increasing number of industry intermediaries, reassurances about the work that the individual was who make onward electronic transfers on behalf of undertaking. applicants, often involving high fees and cursory regard In conclusion, I return to my central point about the to the system’s robustness and whether applications are frustration caused by the visa system, how it operates, ever formally concluded. That is but one aspect of the its cashless nature, which is inadequate for many Malawians, system that causes discrimination based on wealth. and the implications and consequences. Thousands of The Minister will be aware that many Malawians do people in the UK are involved in projects and community not have an internationally recognised credit or bank initiatives to support Malawi, often on a local, project- card, but I wonder whether the Home Office took that by-project basis involving schools, Churches and community into account when deciding how the system would organisations. They want to help, support and underpin work. Has any consideration been made of how much the work that the UK Government’s aid programme is industry intermediaries make each year through charging engaged in delivering to one of the poorest countries in to make electronic transfers? Are there any concerns the world. The Scotland Malawi Partnership is a about the quality of those transactions and the potential phenomenal organisation that is helping to facilitate for fraud in the visa application process? We are told that. It is not an unreasonable group of people, but it that the solution is for the UK sponsor to pay the fees, has repeatedly highlighted the concerns and the scale of but that rarely works. The IT system regularly crashes the problem. and is unclear, making it hard for the sponsor to be able We have heard the line-to-take response from Ministers to get to the appropriate place in the application and in other Departments, but I hope that the Minister can make the payment. How many UK sponsors have been commit today not only to answering my questions but unable to pay fees for applications? What is the figure as to re-examining the effectiveness of the system and its a percentage of all applications? processes. This is not about immigration policy so much The system also means that all UK visa applications as the way the system is applied and how it affects from Africa are now handled in regional hubs, which people in Malawi. In the short term, will the Minister causes delays as passports, birth certificates, bank details consider giving the high commission in Lilongwe a and other essential documents are sent back and forth front-facing officer to provide face-to-face support to across the continent, not always reliably. Decisions are those applying for a visa to visit the UK and guide them then made by those who have almost no knowledge of through a process that can be confusing, frustrating and the country concerned. Applicants have even had to fly incoherent in equal measure? We all understand the across the continent to collect their passports in urgent importance of ensuring that immigration policy is well situations. I understand that the move to regional hubs designed and robust, but there are real concerns that it was partly about efficiency, but the Government should is not as effective as it could or should be and that be concerned about reliability. How has the move to important charitable and support work for one of the regional hubs affected the time scale involved in securing poorest countries in the world is being undermined by visas? What is the current backlog of the hub in Pretoria? the system. I implore the Minister to reconsider the In last week’s debate in the other place, Baroness matter and to provide a better system in the interests of Northover stated: the people of Malawi and of the UK. “Poorly paid people from Malawi are not discriminated against Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. Before I in applying for visas. There is no income threshold.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 23 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 858.] call the Minister, I advise Members that the debate will conclude at 5.7 pm. While it may be correct that there is no income threshold, that is not the same as there being no disincentive based 4.57 pm on income. For example, applicants must demonstrate that they have sufficient funds to cover the costs of their The Minister for Security and Immigration (James visit and to return to Malawi, meaning that more than Brokenshire): It is a pleasure to serve under your 90% are simply not rich enough to be allowed to accept chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate an invitation to the UK. They must also prove that the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West there is a strong reason for them to return to Malawi, (Tom Greatrex) on securing the debate, and on how he 53WH UK Visa Applications (Malawi)28 OCTOBER 2014 UK Visa Applications (Malawi) 54WH advanced his points about the visa arrangements for which such arrangements have been put in place. I Malawi and underlined the connections between Malawi reassure him that the charge is in no way a means of and the United Kingdom, and Scotland in particular. I trying to make money. The UK does not make any also recognise his direct constituency interest, it being money from such charges, which support the visa the birthplace of Dr David Livingstone, whose connection application service in-country. with Malawi started in the 1850s, and I recognise the The arrangement to clear visas in Pretoria was put in history involved. It is important to underline the connections place in about 2008-09. The concept of having a smaller between the UK and Malawi, and the movement of number of hubs to ensure an efficient and effective people ensures closer engagement between both countries. service has been adopted by us around the globe. We The visa service has an important part to play in have not seen inefficiencies in it, and it has led to—I facilitating that movement, while, as the hon. Gentleman hope—better decision making on the applications received. understands, protecting our borders and preventing I will come on to that point. illegal immigration. In addressing the hon. Gentleman’s questions and Stephen Barclay: Will the Minister give way? points, it is important to give the broader context of our performance and the number of visa applications received James Brokenshire: I have four minutes left, and as from Malawi. I believe that we provide a good service to this debate was secured by the hon. Member for Rutherglen customers from Malawi. Of the 2,160 visa applications and Hamilton West, I need to give credit to him in the received from Malawian nationals in 2013, 86% were time available. successful. That is an important figure to highlight, given his question about the number of refused applications. There is a close tie between Scotland and Malawi, Looking back at the figures for 2010, I note that the which dates back to the 1850s, and the Scotland-Malawi grant rate then was 74%. The hon. Gentleman suggests partnership plays a key role in supporting links between a worsening picture, but it would seem that the grant our countries. My officials in Pretoria, where Malawian rate is higher than it was four years ago. The number of applications are considered, have established a good applications that we receive from Malawi is comparatively relationship with Mr David Hope-Jones, the principal small—I will come on to talk about some of the challenges officer of the Scotland-Malawi partnership, to ensure that that creates—but it is important to see the context that citizens from Malawi can apply for visas. of the overall grant rate. One particular problem raised has been the difficulty We do process applications within our published in accessing the internet in Malawi and, therefore, in customer service standards, and often much faster than submitting a visa application. UKVI has moved to an that. The global published service standards are to application and payment process in which almost all process non-settlement applications within 15 working customers apply and pay for their visas online. We have days and settlement applications within 60 working introduced that arrangement around the globe; it is part days. On the gov.uk website, we have published the of the Government’s “digital by default” strategy. August figures for the processing time for applications The Visa4UK application portal has been upgraded submitted in Malawi for business visit visas; 69% were to provide an improved customer interface, as well as to processed in five days, 90% in 10 days and 100% in introduce a number of new features designed to make 15 days. With regard to settlement, 100% of applications applications clearer and easier to complete. The move were processed in 60 days. I point the hon. Gentleman to online applications and payments has delivered a to the current performance figures on the website. I take streamlined process that is consistent with a wider the performance in individual countries seriously, so global trend for online transactions and payments. It that we can ensure that we are delivering a quality, will also be a safer system for both customers and staff, timely visa service for the citizens of those countries as it reduces the risk associated with handling large who want to visit the UK. amounts of cash. In the current economic climate, it is not possible to Customers who do not have a credit or debit card can offer a free, five-day-a-week visa application network in seek a sponsor to pay online, as the hon. Gentleman all countries of the world. However, where possible, we said. I made further inquiries and discovered that prepaid do not want to require someone who wishes to travel to credit or debit cards from the major suppliers can be the UK to travel to a different country first in order to provided by Malawian banks and used for our gateway. apply for a visa. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will There is, therefore, the ability to go to a mainstream appreciate that point. Malawian bank to secure that. We have received no In order to offer the option of submitting an application official communication from the Malawian Government for a UK visa in Malawi as well as in other locations, saying that the permission of the Reserve Bank of UK Visas and Immigration had to make changes to our Malawi is required for visa payments. The situation in visa application footprint. Those are in line with a Malawi for applications has improved, and my officials global model that includes requiring customers at lower- continue to work with sponsors to ensure access to the volume visa application centres to provide a contribution visa service. to the running costs, and reducing the opening frequencies The hon. Gentleman and others have raised concerns of some visa application points. The alternative was to about it being difficult for a Malawian to be issued a withdraw our visa application network from Malawi visa, owing to their modest economic circumstances, entirely, which we did not want to do. even if a genuine sponsor in the UK is meeting the cost The hon. Gentleman referred to the additional of the visit. All visa applications from anywhere in the £59 charge. That was determined solely to recover the world are considered on their individual merits against costs of operating the visa application points in this the immigration rules. Applicants should provide evidence location. Malawi is one of a number of countries in to show that they meet the rules and that their circumstances 55WH UK Visa Applications (Malawi)28 OCTOBER 2014 UK Visa Applications (Malawi) 56WH

[James Brokenshire] but the onus is on the applicant to provide all relevant information in support of their application, including are as they outline. Those intending to visit the UK full details of their sponsor’s ability to maintain and should provide evidence to show that they can be adequately accommodate them. However, it is important to note accommodated and supported during their stay, and that visitors must meet all the other requirements of the that they can meet the cost of their onward journey. immigration rules. I recognise the point about return. That is important to ensure that only genuine visitors I have had limited time in which to respond, but I will come to the UK, and to protect our system. reflect carefully on what the hon. Gentleman has said. There is flexibility within the rules for visitors to be Perhaps I could write to him with further details following maintained and accommodated by friends or relatives. the debate. Entry clearance officers will take into account all information provided by applicants and their sponsors 5.7 pm when making decisions on visa applications. They will Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order make inquiries directly with sponsors where necessary, No. 10(13)). 11WS Written Statements28 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 12WS Written Statements Public Sector Exit Payments (Recovery)

Tuesday 28 October 2014 The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): We are today publishing the Government response to the consultation about provisions in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill which will enable the TREASURY recovery of exit payments when high earners return to the same part of the public sector within 12 months of Fair and Effective Markets Review leaving. These provisions will ensure that the taxpayer is not paying out large sums in redundancies only to incur the The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): cost of re-employing the same person in a similar role On 12 June 2014, the Government announced a joint elsewhere. This will underpin consistency and fairness review by HM Treasury, the Bank of England, and the across the whole of the public sector. Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) into the way wholesale This measure follows a number of recent high profile financial markets operate. cases where individuals have received large exit payments Wholesale fixed income, currency and commodity and quickly returned to public sector roles. The Health (FICC) markets underpin major financial transactions Select Committee found that among 19,000 NHS in the global economy. These markets also play a vital redundancies, 17% had been rehired, and most within a role in determining the costs of borrowing for households, year. An Audit Commission report in 2010 found that business and government, exchange rates, and commodity of 37 chief executives who left by mutual agreement prices that affect the real economy in Britain. In recent over a two-year period from January 2007, six had been years we have seen abuse and misconduct in FICC employed in another council within 12 months. In such markets, and allegations continue to circulate. The circumstances, the justification of financial support to Government are determined to take action to help bridge the gap to new employment is undermined and restore trust and integrity and to ensure that the highest this represents poor value for money. standards are expected of those who operate in these The consultation ran from 25 June to 17 September FICC markets. It is important that this is done in a way 2014 and received responses from 27 organisations ranging that preserves the UK’s position as the global financial from health care bodies, local government bodies, trade centre for many of these markets, with all the jobs and unions and professional bodies. Engagements with investment that brings. Departments continued throughout this period, and Action has already been taken both domestically and representations were received from their arm’s-length in the EU to respond to recent market abuses by regulators, bodies. legislators and market participants. In the EU, key Respondents broadly agree that exit payments are changes to the regulatory structure have been agreed primarily for a loss of employment, agreeing that it was under MiFID II and the market abuse regulation. reasonable to consider a recovery provision but advised Domestically, as well as enforcement action taken by caution over complexity. We have carefully considered the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), the Government all responses in deciding how to move forward with the have taken steps to ensure that robust measures can be legislation, recognising the diverse range of views which taken to tackle abuse and raise standards. This includes reflects different work force arrangements across the legislation to introduce a new criminal offence imposed public sector. As a result of this, the Government have on people who manipulate the LIBOR benchmark, and decided to continue with the main elements of this legislating to implement recommendations from the policy: Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. The Require high earning public sector employees or office Government have also launched a consultation on extending holders to repay a broad definition of exit payments should the new legislation put in place to regulate LIBOR to they return to the public sector within 12 months on a pro cover further benchmarks in these markets, including rata basis. benchmarks in the markets for gold, silver, crude oil Apply these measures to employees moving between the and foreign exchange. same part—or sub sector—of the public sector, with the These are important steps, but the Government are exact definition of these sub-sectors to be determined and consulted upon at a later stage. committed to go further in ensuring that markets are fair and effective for the British economy.The Government Define higher earners as any individual earning above £100,000. welcome the progress that has already been made by the Fair and Effective Markets Review. The consultation Make changes that represent a baseline legal requirement. Where employers’ existing or proposed policies go further document “How fair and effective are the fixed income, these measures will support rather than replace them. foreign exchange and commodities markets?” published Following the responses we received, the Government on 27 October is comprehensive, balanced and rigorous have made the following changes to our original proposal: and asks the right questions on what needs to change to Payments in lieu of notice will not be recovered, as these address recent misconduct and reinforce fairness and are not payments for a loss of employment. effectiveness in these markets. The consultation document is available on the gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/ Those payments that have a potential, if not actual, monetary value will not be recovered because the difficulty government/news/fair-and-effective-markets-review- of attributing a value would add an administration complexity announced-by-chancellor-of-the-exchequer and the likely cost of doing so could not be justified. The Government look forward to the review’s final A decision has also been taken not to include a lower recommendations in June 2015. earnings threshold for a taper because of cost and complexity. 13WS Written Statements28 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 14WS

Special severance payments will be subject to the recovery Laying the regulations now gives fire and rescue authorities provisions because they include elements that are paid in time to implement the changes before they come into respect of loss of employment such as payments made for effect in April 2015. efficiency reasons, as well as elements that could be attributable to employer fault. Waivers from repayment could be used We are also consulting on an amendment to the fire where these agreements relate to elements of employer fault, and rescue national framework for England to ensure such as out of court settlement of an employee’s claims that no firefighter aged 55 or over will face a risk of against an employer. being left without a job or a good pension. Our proposals The Bank of England and public broadcasters will be underpin the fitness and capability processes that exist excluded from the scope of this policy, recognising their within individual fire and rescue authorities and unique independent status. These organisations are to operate complement the work being undertaken by a fitness their own proposals which adhere to the spirit of the policy, group chaired by the chief fire and rescue adviser, Peter and the BBC and Channel 4 have already put in place more stringent proposals. Holland. This group will provide an important opportunity for employers, employees and Government to consider In relation to the Office for National Statistics and some regulators, they will operate as independent individual sub-sectors the issues around fitness in more depth, and suggest responsible for their own waiver regimes. This is consistent practical action to address them. These steps will benefit with independence in the production and release of official all firefighters, not least women firefighters, and those statistics, and for some regulators a statutory basis for who will work beyond 55 if they so wish. As the impact independence from central Government. of working beyond 55 years of age will only start to As far as the waiver regime is concerned, there will be no take effect in 2022, there is time to ensure appropriate option to waive recovery of payments made to Ministers and procedures are in place to reassure and support both their special advisers, and parliamentary post holders. the younger and older worker. This process, linked with Further details of the changes to the policy are in the generous ill health arrangements and the opportunity Government’s response to the consultation which has for redeployment, should ensure that firefighters can been published on the gov.uk site. continue to receive one of the best pension packages of The Government have decided to proceed with legislating any worker. for framework powers enabling the recovery of public A third of all firefighters are already members of the sector exit payments, and will draft regulations giving new firefighters’ pension scheme 2006, which has a effect to the policy taking account of these changes. normal pension age of 60. The 2015 scheme maintains a normal pension age of 60 as recommended by Lord Hutton and incorporated into the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. Firefighters are the only work force that will COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT not see an increase in their open scheme’s normal pension age as part of the reforms. Firefighters’ Pension Schemes As a result of our consultation and representations received, we have made a number of changes to the scheme originally proposed. We have extended the enhanced The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for early retirement arrangements so that they now apply Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): from age 55, meaning that, as a member of the 2015 People are now living longer, with the average 60-year-old scheme, a firefighter retiring from age 55 will keep a living 10 years longer now than they did in the 1970s. As significantly higher proportion of their pension than if a result, the cost of public service pensions has increased they were in the 2006 scheme. in real terms by around a third over the last 10 years Members of the firefighters’ pension scheme 2015 and is now £32 billion a year. The average firefighter will also earn more pension for each year that they are a retiring at age 50 today is expected to live and draw a member of the 2015 scheme than if they were in the pension for 37 years in retirement after a career of 2006 scheme. The reformed 2015 scheme further improves 30 years. Lord Hutton, in his independent report, found on the existing firefighters’ pension schemes by removing that the firefighters’ pension scheme 1992 is the most the cap on the amount of pension that can be earned, expensive public service scheme and it is forecast to providing pension enhancements when taken after normal have a cash flow deficit of nearly £600 million by pension age, and giving members greater flexibility by 2018-19. Taxpayers cannot be expected to meet all of allowing partial retirement. The 2015 scheme also introduces these costs. a career average pension arrangement, which is a fairer From December 2011, a number of proposals for pension scheme for lower paid members who tend to reform were discussed between the Department, employers have flatter career progression. and the firefighter representative bodies. Over a year We have also put in place very generous protections, after the Government published their preferred scheme which see a greater proportion of firefighters protected design in May 2012, the Fire Brigades Union balloted from the reforms than any other large public service its members for strike action. Since that period there pension scheme. A member of the firefighters’ pension have been further talks to try to resolve the dispute, and scheme 1992, who on 1 April 2012 was aged 45 or over, three consultations covering the pension regulations. will see no change in their benefits or retirement age. We have listened to the responses made to these Firefighters aged 41 or over at that date will receive consultations and refined the scheme design to address tapered protection, meaning that they will continue in points made by firefighters. their existing scheme for a longer period of time. As a Today, the Government have laid regulations setting result, less than a quarter of firefighters will see a out the terms of the reformed firefighters’ pension change to their normal pension age in April 2015, and scheme before Parliament and these will incorporate no firefighter will have to work beyond their current the changes that we have agreed to the scheme design. normal pension age until 2022. 15WS Written Statements28 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 16WS

Where firefighters are transferring to the 2015 scheme, DEFENCE they can be reassured that the pension they have built up in their existing schemes will be fully protected, and Pensions (Contingent Liabilities) they can still choose to retire at the age they currently expect—which could be from age 50. Pension earned in the 1992 scheme will be enhanced further to recognise loss of access to double accrual, and all benefits earned The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence in existing schemes will be calculated on the member’s (Mr Philip Dunne): I am pleased to inform the House final salary on retirement. 1992 scheme members will that I am today laying a departmental minute to advise also see a reduction in their employee contributions of that the Ministry of Defence has received approval two percentage points in 2015-16. After tax, this puts from Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT) to recognise a new £460 back in their pockets in that financial year. class of contingent liability associated with the provision of pensions to staff compulsorily transferred from the Members will continue to benefit from ill health and public sector under new fair deal arrangements. survivor benefits, providing important cover for the As part of the naval base operating centre transformation member and their family should the worst happen. The programme, and after a competitive procurement process, Department has also agreed to reduce the cost for approval was given to outsource provision of reception authorities that choose to retire a firefighter over the centre services at Her Majesty’s naval base Devonport age of 55 with an unreduced pension, providing them to Babcock International Group. The contract was with greater flexibility to manage their work forces. awarded on 1 September 2014 and will lead to the transfer of 20 assigned civilian posts under the Transfer Importantly the reforms are fairer for taxpayers. They of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) legislation put the schemes onto a sustainable footing by removing on 1 December 2014. the final salary risks associated with the old schemes, This transfer of undertaking will be implemented and by introducing a cost cap to limit future taxpayers’ under new fair deal arrangements, which will generate exposure on the costs of the scheme. future contingent liabilities for pension costs. HMT approval was granted on 8 August 2014 and I am The Government recognise the importance of reassuring advising Parliament of the approval of contingent liability firefighters about changes to their pension in the future. for pension costs associated with such transfers under We have given a 25-year guarantee that no changes to new fair deal arrangements. scheme design, benefits or contribution rates will be necessary, other than within the reform framework. On 10 October 2014, we issued a consultation on setting up a national scheme advisory board and local pension JUSTICE boards, following Lord Hutton’s recommendations on better scheme governance. We have proposed that local Convention on the Protection of Human Rights and pension boards will include serving firefighters who Fundamental Freedoms will, for the first time, have a direct involvement in looking after their pensions.

Alongside the pension regulations, the Department is The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon also responding to the “Normal Pension Age for Hughes): In accordance with the Constitutional Reform Firefighters” review prepared by Dr Williams who made and Governance Act 2010 and as part of the United three recommendations to deal with the design of the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’s pension scheme and a further seven recommendations ratification process, the Government are laying before on supporting firefighters who remain operationally fit Parliament the text of Protocol 15 to the Convention until age 60. We have accepted two of the three for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental recommendations on the pension scheme design, and Freedoms, commonly known as the European convention the 2015 scheme reflects this. However, the Department on human rights, under Command Paper No. 8951 with could not accept the recommendation to reduce the an explanatory memorandum which explains the effects pension of firefighters who are permanently unable to of the protocol, ministerial responsibility for its undertake the role of a firefighter. implementation, and financial implications resulting from ratification. The remaining recommendations concern fitness The key objective of the United Kingdom’s chairmanship standards, assessments, training and data collection, all of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe of which will be considered by the fitness group to be was to secure agreement to further reforms to the chaired by the chief fire and rescue adviser. Finally, the European Court of Human Rights. That objective was Department is content to commission subsequent reviews achieved. The resulting Brighton declaration on the to further consider the impact of a normal pension age future of the Court, agreed on 20 April 2012, was a of 60 on firefighters. comprehensive package of reforms to tackle the excessive backlog of cases pending before the Court, and made We have arrived at this final scheme after extensive clear that the primary responsibility for guaranteeing consultation and consideration. It is a sustainable and human rights rests with national Governments, Parliaments fair pension package, which takes into account the and courts. Together, these reforms help to ensure that unique role of firefighters. Copies of the associated the Court focuses on allegations of serious violations or documents will be placed in the Library of the major points of interpretation of the convention. Refocusing House and they are also available on my Department’s the role of the Court should reduce its backlog and thus website. deliver swifter justice for the fewer cases before it. 17WS Written Statements28 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 18WS

The Brighton declaration was the result of a hard Today, I am publishing a new document, “Transparency won—and ongoing—negotiation on the future role of for Roads”, setting out the respective roles of the new the European Court of Human Rights. It therefore monitor and watchdog, who will monitor and improve represented a significant step towards realising the goals the performance and efficiency of the company and set out by the Prime Minister in Strasbourg in January represent the interests of road users. As a result of this, 2012, to ensure that the Court does not function as a the management of the strategic road network will be “Court of fourth instance”. It was not however the end more transparent and accountable than it has ever been of the reform process: as mandated by the Brighton before. declaration, work continues at the Council of Europe to These roles will be performed by the Office of Rail consider further reforms in the context of the long-term Regulation and Passenger Focus respectively, the latter future of the Court and the convention system. of which expects to change its name to Transport Focus As part of the package of reforms, the Brighton to better reflect its intended wider remit. To ensure that declaration included agreement in principle to amend its continued role in rail, as well as its proposed expanded the convention in five respects. Protocol 15, the text of role in roads is understood by passengers and road which will be laid here today, makes these amendments. users, Transport Focus will work under two sub-brands Since it was opened for signature on 24 June 2013, “Transport Focus—Passengers” and “Transport Focus— Protocol 15 has been ratified by 10 states and signed by Road Users”. 29 others. It will come into force once ratified by all Following further refinement, I am also publishing high contracting parties to the convention, and will updated versions of: represent an important part of the implementation of “Transforming our strategic roads—a summary”, an the Brighton declaration. introduction to roads reform that summarises the reasons The Brighton declaration also included agreement in for change, what this involves, how the new regime will work principle to the drafting of Protocol 16 to the convention. and the benefits the change will deliver for road users and This creates an optional system by which the highest the nation as a whole—with additional information about national courts can choose to seek advisory opinions on roles and responsibilities in the system of governance for the new company, and how this system will ensure the company the interpretation of the convention from the European fulfils important obligations on issues such as safety, the Court of Human Rights. It will come into force once it environment and co-operation with others; and has been ratified by 10 high contracting parties to the “Strategic Highways Company: draft Licence”, which convention, and will apply only to those countries that indicates the manner in which the Secretary of State proposes have ratified it. to issue binding statutory directions and guidance to the new Although the Government were pleased that they company, setting objectives and conditions around how the could help secure agreement on advisory opinions in company must act—updated to reflect further development work carried out over the summer, particularly with regard the Brighton declaration, they have long made clear to safety and the environment, as well as co-operation, asset that they are unconvinced of their value, particularly management and research, and the processes for setting and for addressing the fundamental problems facing the varying a road investment strategy. Court and the convention system. The Government will These take into account proposed Government therefore neither sign nor ratify Protocol 16 at this time. amendments tabled to the Infrastructure Bill to ensure They will instead observe how the system operates in that, in setting or varying the RIS, the Secretary of practice, having regard particularly to the effect on the State has regard to road user safety and the environment, work load of the Court, and to how the Court approaches and that appropriate consultation takes place, and also the giving of opinions. to strengthen role of the monitor, giving it the ability to carry out independent enforcement activity if the company fails to deliver. TRANSPORT Taken together with the measures in part 1 of the Infrastructure Bill, the proposed governance regime will provide a strong, certain framework for managing Infrastructure Bill (Roads Reform Elements) our roads. It will strengthen accountability, drive efficiency, increase transparency and create far more certain conditions for investment, enabling the supply chain to gear up for The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John the Government’s ambitious plans for the future. This Hayes): In June 2014, following the introduction of the will support the economy, promote jobs and skills and Infrastructure Bill, which contains legislative proposals ultimately transform the quality of our national on transforming the Highways Agency into a Government- infrastructure and the quality of service for road users. owned strategic highways company, the Government We look to move to the new model with minimal published a suite of documents that set out further disruption. details of the key elements that together will form a cohesive and robust governance framework for the new As the Bill remains subject to parliamentary approval, company. these documents remain subject to change. These documents explained how the governance regime A copy of each of these documents will be placed in for the new company would allow it the autonomy and the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available flexibility to operate, manage and enhance the network at: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/roads-reform on a day-to-day basis and deliver more efficiently, while Further information on the Infrastructure Bill is available ensuring it acts transparently, remains accountable to at: Government, road users and taxpayers, and continues https://www.gov.uk/government/news/infrastructure- to run the network in the public interest. bill ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 28 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 153 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Chagossian Resettlement ...... 155 continued EU Sanctions (Russia) ...... 163 Nuclear Weapons (Vienna Conference)...... 153 Gaza ...... 158 Political Prisoners (Burma) ...... 167 Government of Ukraine ...... 159 Religious Minorities (Algeria)...... 154 ISIL ...... 164 Security Situation (Turkey) ...... 156 Israel and Palestine ...... 161 Southern Lebanon ...... 168 Kurdish Peshmerga ...... 167 Topical Questions ...... 169 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 28 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 13WS TRANSPORT ...... 17WS Firefighters’ Pension Schemes ...... 13WS Infrastructure Bill (Roads Reform Elements)...... 17WS DEFENCE...... 16WS Pensions (Contingent Liabilities) ...... 16WS JUSTICE...... 16WS TREASURY ...... 11WS Convention on the Protection of Human Rights Fair and Effective Markets Review...... 11WS and Fundamental Freedoms ...... 16WS Public Sector Exit Payments (Recovery)...... 12WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 28 October 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 153] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office

School Governors (Appointment) [Col. 176] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Neil Carmichael)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [8th allotted day] Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform (Disabled People) [Col. 179] Motion—(Kate Green)—on a Division, negatived Coalfield Communities [Col. 239] Motion—(Michael Dugher)—agreed to

A5 Trunk Road (M42/M69) [Col. 283] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Copycat Websites (Government Services) [Col. 1WH] Personal Independence Payments [Col. 13WH] Education for Young People with Disabilities (UK Aid) [Col. 22WH] Furness Line [Col. 38WH] UK Visa Applications (Malawi) [Col. 48WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]