Seanad Éireann

Vol. 257 Tuesday, No. 7 24 April 2018

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

24/04/2018A00100Business of Seanad ��438

24/04/2018B00200Visit of Australian Delegation ��439

24/04/2018B00350Commencement Matters ��439

24/04/2018B00400Building Regulations ��439

24/04/2018D00500Architectural Heritage ��441

24/04/2018F01025Social Welfare Overpayments ��444

24/04/2018J00200Electronic Cigarettes ��446

24/04/2018N00100Order of Business ��449

24/04/2018EE00500Health and Social Care Professionals Regulations 2018: Referral to Joint Committee ��467

24/04/2018EE00800Address by Commissioner Phil Hogan: Motion ��468

24/04/201Councillors’ Conditions: Statements (Resumed) ��468 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Dé Máirt, 24 Aibreán 2018

Tuesday, 24 April 2018

Chuaigh an Leas-Chathaoirleach i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

24/04/2018A00100Business of Seanad

24/04/2018A00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Martin Conway that, on the motion for the Commencement of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Housing, Environment and Local Government to consider putting in place a redress scheme to provide financial support to home purchasers who now find that their property was not properly constructed and is non-compliant with building and fire regulations.

I have also received notice from Senator Victor Boyhan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to provide a progress update on the work of the national inventory of architectural heritage for the Dún Laoghaire- Rathdown County Council area.

I have also received notice from Senator Rose Conway-Walsh of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection to outline the methods used to recover overpayments of social welfare from people who are deceased; and the amount of revenue collected.

I have also received notice from Senator Catherine Noone of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to outline the research being conducted to test the effectiveness of e-cigarettes in helping Irish smokers to quit the habit.

I have also received notice from Senator Colm Burke of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection to undertake a review of the community employment scheme to allow people who have reached 66 years of age to continue to work under the scheme.

438 24 April 2018 I have also received notice from Senator Maria Byrne of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Justice and Equality to examine the feasibility of providing a Garda station for Castletroy, Limerick.

I have also received notice from Senator Michelle Mulherin of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to provide assurance to residents of Áras Attracta, Swinford, County Mayo, and their families, that those who do not wish to be moved out of the facility will not be forced, with particular reference to the case of a resident, details sup- plied; and that the issues raised in relation to residents’ safety, care and well-being, set out in the McCoy report, will be addressed.

The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. I have selected the matters raised by Senators Conway, Boyhan, Conway-Walsh and Noone and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise.

24/04/2018B00200Visit of Australian Delegation

24/04/2018B00300An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Before I call on Senator Conway, I am sure Members of the House will wish to join with me in welcoming Mr. Geoff Howard, Member of the State Parlia- ment of Victoria, Australia, and currently deputy chair of its rural and regional committee. He is accompanied by H.E. Mr. Richard Andrews, the ambassador of Australia to Ireland. On my own behalf and on behalf of all my colleagues in Seanad Éireann I extend a very warm welcome to them and good wishes for a very successful visit to Ireland.

24/04/2018B00350Commencement Matters

24/04/2018B00400Building Regulations

24/04/2018B00500Senator Martin Conway: I echo the warm welcome you have issued, a Leas-Chathao- irligh, to our visitors, including the Australian ambassador to Ireland. It is good to see him here.

I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House to take this important Commence- ment matter. I have no doubt that many colleagues will be aware of people who, in good faith, either bought a house or had a house built by a contractor and who were properly bonded and insured. People who either purchased or built such a house would have had professionals checking out the bonds to ensure there was proper insurance and so forth but, some years later, would have discovered defects. However, when they sought redress, in some cases the builders had gone out of business. There is no form of come back for them. Companies have gone bust, so to speak. In some cases, people retained professional expertise who did not do their job in terms of ensuring there were proper bonds, insurance and redress in place if something were to go wrong. There are such people, and thankfully they are a minority, in every county, including in my county, and we need to do something to help them because they are living in homes that are defective and, in some cases, not habitable. Some of them have to move out because the 439 Seanad Éireann home has to be demolished. They are in turmoil because they do not know how they will fund the retrofitting or, in some cases, the demolition and rebuilding of their homes.

Much has been done to help people, particularly by this Government, but this is a group in our society that deserves some help from the Government. The economy has turned a corner. Building has commenced again. We are in a better position financially than we were previously. In these minority of cases, something should be done to give some comfort to people who find themselves in such a terrible position.

24/04/2018C00200Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy John Paul Phelan): I thank Senator Conway for raising this issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

At the outset, I wish to acknowledge the distressing and stressful circumstances the owners and residents of buildings must face where building defects emerge. However, in general, building defects are matters for resolution between the contracting parties involved, the hom- eowner, the builder, the developer and-or their respective insurers, structural guarantee or war- ranty scheme.

It is important to note that while the Department has overall responsibility for establishing and maintaining an effective regulatory framework for building standards and building control, it has no general statutory role in resolving defects in privately owned buildings, including dwellings, nor does it have a budget for such matters. In this regard, it is incumbent on the parties responsible for poor workmanship and-or the supply of defective materials to face up to their responsibilities and take appropriate action to provide remedies for the affected homeowners.

The issue of legal redress for homeowners in respect of property transactions is a complex matter, with potential implications for the entire legal system as well as for the insurance industry. In this context, in February 2018, the Department wrote to the Law Reform Commission and also corresponded with those involved in the review of the administration of civil justice in Ireland requesting that they consider the issue of effective and accessible legal remedies for homeowners who discover defects in their homes.

Under the Building Control Acts 1990 to 2014, primary responsibility for compliance of works with the requirements of the building regulations, including Part B on fire safety, rests with the owners, designers and builders of buildings. Enforcement of the building regulations is a matter for the 31 local building control authorities, which have extensive powers of inspection and enforcement under the Acts and which are independent in the use of their statutory powers.

In August 2017, the Department published a framework for enhancing fire safety in dwellings where concerns arise. The framework is intended to be used as a guide by the owners and occupants of dwellings where fire safety deficiencies have been identified or are a cause for concern. The framework will also be of assistance to professional advisers, both in developing strategies to improve fire safety and in developing strategies to enable continued occupation in advance of undertaking necessary works to ensure compliance with the relevant building regulations. In response to the many building failures that have emerged in the past decade, the Department introduced the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations to the 2014 Act which require greater accountability on the compliance with building regulations in the form of

440 24 April 2018 statutory certification of design and construction by registered construction professionals and builders, lodgement of compliance documentation, mandatory inspections during construction and validation and registration of certificates. A certificate of compliance on completion is jointly signed by the builder and the assigned certifier. This must be accompanied by plans and documentation to show how the constructed building complies with the building regulations and also the inspection plan as implemented.

Parallel with the 2014 regulations, a project is in place in the Local Government Manage- ment Agency to improve the effectiveness of the building control system. A number of en- hancements have been delivered to date and others are in progress. Ultimately this work will be embedded in a centralised structure for the governance and oversight of building control as a shared service in a lead local authority.

Last year the Government approved the draft heads of a Bill to place the Construction Indus- try Register Ireland on a statutory footing and the Bill was referred to the Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government for pre-legislative scrutiny. The committee’s report was received on 14 December 2017 and the Department is considering its recommendations, with a view to progressing the drafting as soon as possible. Once it is enacted, the Bill will provide consumers who engage a registered builder with the assurance that they are dealing with a competent and compliant operator and will complement the reforms which have been made through the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations and contribute to the development of an enhanced culture of competence and compliance in the construction sector.

24/04/2018D00200Senator Martin Conway: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Phelan, for his compre- hensive reply. The positives in this are that we are taking a much more hands on approach in managing and regulating builders compared to the complete and total light touch regulation that existed prior to, and during, the last economic boom. That is good and it is reassuring for people who, in good faith, hire a contractor to build a home. Of course the problem now is that contractors, who are prepared to build one off houses, are few and far between because a lot of our builders unfortunately emigrated and have made lives for themselves abroad. I thank the Minister of State for that reply, which I will study. I will bring it back to Clare County Council which passed a motion that there should be a redress scheme. I have no doubt we will have a further engagement on this important matter in due course.

24/04/2018D00300Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): That concludes this matter unless the Minis- ter of State wants to come back in.

24/04/2018D00400Deputy John Paul Phelan: No.

24/04/2018D00500Architectural Heritage

24/04/2018D00600Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O’Connor, to the House. I note that there are three former Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown councillors here - one in the Chair, one putting the question and one answering the question. Senator Conway-Walsh is also welcome to the Chamber. It is like Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown on tour. I call Senator Boyhan.

24/04/2018E00100Senator Victor Boyhan: I warmly welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O’Connor, to the House because I am aware of her track record with the built heritage and 441 Seanad Éireann architecture of the county, particularly her work in Dún Laoghaire but also in Dalkey, Killiney and Shankill all the way up to Monkstown, Blackrock and Booterstown. The Acting Chairman will be aware of it too.

24/04/2018E00200Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): We are dealing with Dún Laoghaire-Rath- down, Dundrum, Kilcullen and everywhere.

24/04/2018E00250Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor: And Foxrock.

24/04/2018E00300Senator Victor Boyhan: I am just coming to that. I would also say Dundrum as well. Last week, I received a substantial number of boxes of architectural drawings and pictures relating to Dún Laoghaire which were done by the late Mr. Stephen Devaney. I have been in touch with the council and, if it will not be deposited with the council, it will be deposited in Merrion Square at the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage. It is an amazing amount of work. Much of it, strangely enough, deals also with Dundrum, Kilgobbin and thereabouts. These are photographs, etchings and drawings. I acknowledge the work of An Taisce in south Dublin, not just in Dún Laoghaire, which did a great deal of this work. It is a valuable piece of work and timely. The National Inventory of Architectural Heritage might like to look at it.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. I am trying to maintain the focus. There has been an inventory of architectural heritage carried out in many local authority areas. There is merit in having it. Outside of Dublin and Cork, Dún Laoghaire would have one of the largest percent- ages of protected structures, and rightly so, because they are unique and are worth protecting. We have to make progress, at the same time, and we have to develop and move forward.

We can cherish the past and mind our architectural past while also being progressive enough to look for imaginative synergies and solutions to develop our towns and villages. I hope to keep our collective focus on it, to work on it and maybe to get some sort of measure as to when it will happen. This information is important because it will act as a toolkit in many ways to informing decisions about planning.

24/04/2018E00400Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor): I thank Senator Boyhan for raising the matter. I, too, pay tribute to the late Mr. Stephen Devaney. I certainly knew him and I am aware of the good work that he did to protect our conservation areas and to protect the beautiful county we all share with Senator Horkan.

Under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, planning authorities are required to maintain a record of protected structures. The Act specifies that this should include structures of special architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, cultural, scientific, social or technical interest within its functional area.

The compilation of a National Inventory of Architectural Heritage, an inventory of structures of such interest, is a project being undertaken by the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. Deputy Madigan, as Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, uses the data from the inventory to recommend to each planning authority structures for inclusion on its record of protected structures. A total of 45,388 such recommendations have issued to date.

A planning authority must have regard to any recommendations made to it, but ultimately the addition or deletion of a structure to or from the record of protected structures is a reserved function of the elected members of each local authority.

442 24 April 2018 The initial survey for the country has been substantially completed except for Dublin city and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. These two local planning authority areas were consciously left to last as they have a significant record of protected structures, unlike many other counties. However, I understand that both authorities are keen to have the inventory done and recommendations made for their functional areas as an independent review of their existing record of protected structures and to provide a modern data structure for its future management.

I understand that there are approximately 2,000 structures on the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown record of protected structures. In Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, field surveys have been completed for the Glencullen, Shankill, Cabinteely and Foxrock areas. Arising from these surveys, 383 recommendations have been made by the Minister to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, most recently in August of last year. Two further contracts for field recordings in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown are planned for 2018. The first is to be advertised in May. Arising from these, further recommendations to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown will be made by the Minister, Deputy Madigan. As an initial field identification for the area has yet to be completed, and based on current survey numbers with reference to previous surveys of this scale, it will be years before the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown inventory is substantially completed.

The data from the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown surveys will be added to the National Invento- ry of Architectural Heritage website, www.buildingsofireland.ie, in the near future. The website receives approximately 1.5 million page views a year. Although its original audience was seen as owners, building professionals and local authority staff, the experience, from user feedback and questions, is that the website attracts a much wider international audience, often people working on their family history or planning an Irish visit. The Senator is right that there is huge interest in architectural conservation and heritage in our county. I thank him for posing the question earlier.

24/04/2018F00200Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank the Minister of State. We should acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Madigan, is another former Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown councillor, so there are many connections to the area here. I call Senator Boyhan.

24/04/2018F00300Senator Victor Boyhan: I thank the Minister of State. We have a great ally in the Minis- ter, Deputy Madigan, and her record stands as someone who has been supportive of the built architectural heritage. I am delighted that the Minister of State has shared that two more sets of fieldwork are to be undertaken in 2018, which is very positive. I acknowledge the conservation grants that we have received from the Department. It is not enough but it is positive. I thank everyone involved. Maybe the Minister will keep the focus on this issue and keep highlight- ing it. Together, we can protect this unique built heritage and architecture in Dún Laoghaire- Rathdown.

24/04/2018F00400Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank Senator Boyhan. Does the Minister of State have anything else to add?

24/04/2018F00500Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor: There is something interesting for all of us who are from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. I see that my notes here mention the telephone box in Foxrock.

24/04/2018F00600Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I remember discussing it in my council days.

24/04/2018F00700Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor: It was erected in 1926. That shows the wide range of structures across the county. This is thought to be the last surviving example of this type of telephone box in the country. 443 Seanad Éireann

24/04/2018F00800Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I do not think it gets a huge amount of use but it is certainly a nice structure to have in the village.

24/04/2018F00900Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor: It looks good.

24/04/2018F01000Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank the Minister of State.

24/04/2018F01025Social Welfare Overpayments

24/04/2018F01100Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fin- ian McGrath.

24/04/2018F01200Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. While this is no reflection on him, I hoped that the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection would come here because it is under her remit.

The Minister of State will know where I am coming from in terms of trying to solve some problems.

I invited the Minister here today because I am concerned about the situation in which many families find themselves when they discover deceased parents or relatives have been overpaid the non-contributory pension. In the vast majority of cases, no reviews took place to ascertain changes in circumstances and elderly persons had no awareness they were claiming something they were not entitled to. For instance, a person may have had a life insurance pol- 3 o’clock icy, a slight increase in an English pension or some other change which, under the strict legislation regarding pensions, would have reduced the weekly payment the person received. I completely understand that to knowingly claim something one is not entitled to is fraud and is not acceptable. The figures that were released earlier this year show that the vast majority of social welfare overpayments occur as a result of mistakes rather than as a result of fraud, which represents only a tiny percentage. We are dealing with people who are elderly and often ill and who have difficulty understanding written communications on changing rules and regulations. We have to have compassion and some room for error in such cases. I have seen bereaved families distraught when their deceased loved ones were criminalised because they had not understood the instructions. One can say they are not criminalised until they come to court but they are deceased people who were straight and honest all their lives but when they passed over their families were told they had done something very wrong. It is really upsetting for people who are already grieving. It is not right. We have to ask if we can reasonably expect a frail elderly person enduring all the health challenges that come with ageing to be aware that a failure or error has occurred. Will the Minister of State ask for compassion and understanding to usurp the need to recover overpayments?

I am also concerned about the fear many elderly people experience when claiming State payments. There has been a huge drive to put people off payments and to recoup everything that can be recouped for the State. Does the Minister of State have any figure for the underpay- ment of moneys that people are entitled to? Many people are so fearful that they do not claim things they are entitled to. Elderly people, who have contributed much to society, should not have to live in fear of payments being taken from them. These people are made to feel really vulnerable and violated while strangers go through their bank or credit union accounts. They are bombarded with demands for the most private and intimate details. I talk to these people all 444 24 April 2018 the time. They are asked for months and months of bank statements and asked if they are sure they do not have other bank or credit union accounts. We have to achieve a better balance in how we treat these people. We do not want people claiming things they are not entitled to but we do not want people frozen in a situation where they do not claim things they are entitled to.

24/04/2018G00200Minister of State at the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (Deputy Finian McGrath): On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, I apologise for her absence. I am standing in for her. I am a Minister of State in the Department of Employ- ment Affairs and Social Protection as well as in the Department of Health and the Department of Justice and Equality. The Minister apologises that she has another engagement.

I thank Senator Rose Conway-Walsh for raising this very important issue. It is important that arrangements relating to such matters are highlighted from time to time. I welcome that the Senator has done it. I accept the point she made about compassion and understanding particularly when it comes to our senior citizens and families of people with disabilities. I have seen that compassion and understanding in respect of payments, for example, the recent restoration of the carer’s grant, which 101,000 families claim. Having travelled around the country, though, there are a couple of thousand more people who are not claiming it. We must focus on improving that situation.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection processes in excess of 2 million applications for supports each year and makes payments to some 1.4 million people every week. There are many people in the system. The majority of those who are supported by the Department are exercising their legitimate rights and receiving their appropriate entitlements.

Control of abuse of the social welfare system is one of the Department’s three high-level functions. Activity in this area is guided by the 2014-18 compliance and anti-fraud strategy. The Department publishes an annual report on how it is achieving its targets and the priority areas for action for the following year.

Overpayments generally arise as the result of a revision in the amount that a customer is entitled to receive. Where fraud has been suspected and a customer is no longer entitled to a payment because he or she returned to work, recovered from an illness or other changes in his or her circumstances, overpayments are most likely to arise.

There are three circumstances in which overpayments can arise after a customer of the De- partment dies. First, minor overpayments can arise in the days immediately after the death and where notification has not been made to the Department or the death has not been registered. Second and more rarely, overpayments can arise where a family member, agent or other person continues to encash the pension or other social welfare payment due to the deceased. Third, an overpayment of social welfare can be determined during the winding up of the deceased’s es- tate. This can happen when the schedule of the deceased’s assets is received in the Department and it is assessed that he or she had been receiving means-tested payments beyond his or her entitlement. This is often the case where the deceased person did not disclose or fully disclose money held in financial institutions, had investments or did not disclose an interest in property or land.

In 2017, there was €14.4 million in overpayments in respect of 517 deceased customers. Of this amount, some €14.3 million was assessed in respect of 408 customers who had undis- closed or underdisclosed assets at the time of their deaths. The average value of these cases

445 Seanad Éireann was approximately €35,000. The balance of €100,000 in overpayments related to cases where a payment was made after death, with an average value of less than €800 per case. At the end of March 2018, just over €1.6 million was outstanding in respect of all overpayments assessed during 2017.

In addition to its estates unit, the Department has a central debt management service that can provide specialist advice to any person who needs assistance. I trust this information ad- dresses the Senator’s question. I will bring the points she raised to the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty.

24/04/2018H00200Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He has an understanding and compassion for elderly people, people with disabilities and people who are vulnerable. Will he ensure that a communication goes to the persons who are making these decisions to bear in mind that compassion is needed when dealing with such cases? That could resolve the situation in the main. We are not discussing a great deal of money compared with some of the tax avoidance schemes and so on that we have legally put in place. Going after such a vulnerable cohort of people is wrong.

I appreciate the Minister of State’s attendance. We will talk further about this matter.

24/04/2018H00300Deputy Finian McGrath: I thank the Senator for those comments as well as her remarks on this important issue. I endorse her point about communication. The Department of Employ- ment Affairs and Social Protection has a statutory responsibility. That is essential, particularly when dealing with people who are vulnerable or elderly or who have disabilities. The message must go out that the money goes to the people. These people are entitled to it as a right as far as I am concerned. The amount of fraud going on is minimal. The Senator is 100% right in respect of tax avoidance and tax evasion in this State and other countries as well. That is a huge issue. If we had a lot of that money we would be able to provide many more services for vulnerable people in society.

24/04/2018J00200Electronic Cigarettes

24/04/2018J00300Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank Senator Conway-Walsh and move on to No. 4 in the name of Senator Catherine Noone, who has four minutes. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, is dealing with this matter as well. It is about e-cigarettes

24/04/2018J00400Deputy Finian McGrath: Sorry, I am.

24/04/2018J00500Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): The Minister of State was in a rush to get away. I was wondering where he was off to. I know e-cigarettes is a topic close to his heart. I hope he was not off for a smoke. I call Senator Noone.

24/04/2018J00600Senator Catherine Noone: The Minister of State, Deputy McGrath, has seen the debate. I know it is an issue close to his heart, pardon the pun. In light of international studies that have found that smokers who use e-cigarettes tend to smoke less and have increased attempts to quit, what research is being conducted here to test the effectiveness of e-cigarettes in helping Irish smokers quit the habit?

The Minister of State knows that the Healthy Ireland framework is aiming for a tobacco-free Ireland by 2025. That means achieving a smoking rate of less than 5%. The current smoking 446 24 April 2018 rate in Ireland is 22%. The HSE welcomes any aid to quitting smoking but due to the lack of conclusive evidence of the long-term effects, it has not recommended e-cigarettes as an aid. I am not an expert in this area. However, besides the fact that I think they look a bit ridiculous, they do seem to be effective. We should have some policy on them.

E-cigarettes in the UK have been endorsed as a quitting tool. There has been a drop in smoking rates there of 4.8% since 2012. Public Health England has stated that e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful than traditional smoking. That is obviously significant. In the UK, one person switches to e-cigarettes every three minutes. The UK now has the second lowest smoking rate in Europe. Public Health England stated that the use of e-cigarettes is associated with increased quitting success rates and has hastened the decline in smoking.

In Ireland in 2017, the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, reported that e- cigarettes are twice as popular and twice as effective at helping people to quit compared with patches, gum and other devices. Of the people who quit smoking last year, 37% used e-cigarettes according to Healthy Ireland. Smoking rates in Ireland have been slow to decrease. It was 23% in 2015 and 2016, and 22% in 2017. I appreciate that wanting to quit smoking is a personal issue for people. However, if we, as a Government, are seeking to attain a tobacco free Ireland, it appears that our nearest neighbour is having a lot of success in this area, notwithstanding the research that needs to be carried out. I would be interested in us at least having a policy on it.

24/04/2018J00700Deputy Finian McGrath: I thank Senator Noone for raising this very important issue. I will be responding on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris. The Senator will be aware that smoking is the greatest single cause of preventable illness and premature death in Ireland. It kills almost 6,000 people a year. Our primary objectives, set out in the 2013 policy document Tobacco Free Ireland, are to denormalise smoking and to protect children from the dangers of tobacco consumption. That policy sets a target for Ireland to be tobacco free - that is, having a smoking prevalence rate of less than 5% - by 2025. The Government and I remain committed to making Ireland tobacco free.

Tobacco Free Ireland contains a number of recommendations to assist smokers in quitting tobacco use. One of those recommendations is to examine the evidence regarding outcomes of the use of nicotine replacement therapy and other approaches. The Department requested that HIQA undertake a health technology assessment of the clinical and cost effectiveness of the pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical smoking cessation products and services. That assessment was published in 2017. It found that all pharmacological interventions were effective compared with no treatment. A prescription-only drug called varenicline was the most effective drug on its own. Using a combination of varenicline and nicotine replacement therapy was the most effective pharmacological intervention and people using this combination were over 3.5 times more likely to quit than those who were in a control group and did not receive this treatment.

Group behavioural therapy, individual counselling, intensive advice and telephone support were all found to be effective behavioural interventions, with group therapy found to be the most effective of these interventions. The addition of behavioural intervention to a pharmacological intervention improved the effectiveness of the intervention. The HIQA assessment recommended that smoking cessation services should seek to increase the uptake of varenicline, either alone or in combination with nicotine replacement therapy for smokers who want to use pharmacological support. 447 Seanad Éireann Although the health technology assessment found that results for e-cigarettes are promising, there is currently a lack of evidence to recommend their use as a smoking cessation aid, and currently no e-cigarette product is licensed as a medical product in Ireland. The safety of e-cigarettes is an evolving area of research. It is potentially safer than smoking but evidence on long-term safety has yet to be established. In the absence of additional evidence confirming the effectiveness of e-cigarettes, the HIQA assessment recommended that the HSE smoking cessation services should seek to increase the uptake of the combination nicotine replacement therapy treatment among those for whom varenicline is not tolerated or preferred.

The results of the HIQA health technology assessment will inform the development of the national clinical guidelines on smoking cessation interventions currently being undertaken by the Health Service Executive in conjunction with the national clinical effectiveness committee. It has also informed policy decisions on potential improvements to the provision of smoking cessation services in the public health service. The Department will continue to monitor the emerging research on all such products so as to inform decisions around any future additional regulation in the area. I thank the Senator for raising this very important matter.

24/04/2018K00200Senator Catherine Noone: I know the Minister of State did not draft it but I find the response somewhat unsatisfactory. For some time there has been talk that there is not enough evidence in this regard but our nearest neighbours have plenty of evidence to make a policy decision on this issue. I understand these other methods are good and I am personally in favour of the idea of group behavioural therapy, individual counselling, intensive advice and telephone support. This can all obviously be very good. Even on the way here I met one of my colleagues with an e-cigarette in her hand and I stopped to chat to her about it. She said she previously had pleurisy but has not had a cold or any kind of a cough for four or five years whereas she used to have them very regularly. I thought she looked a lot better and she seemed very happy about the change. It is clearly something that works for people but we have no policy in place. People are using these all the time. The response is somewhat unsatisfactory and I will inquire further into the matter. There seems to be enough evidence for our nearest neighbours and I do not see why we cannot collate evidence. I do not see what the problem is.

24/04/2018K00300Deputy Finian McGrath: It is a policy matter. I know many people on e-cigarettes and they have found them very effective. I take the Senator’s very valid point because the method works. There is a broader debate and it is essential that I bring the Senator’s point to the Min- ister, Deputy Harris, and the HSE. Having spoken with people, I know this method seems to be effective and it has an impact. The Senator mentioned a 36% reduction in the UK, which is dramatic. If something is out there like that as evidence, the process should be supported. I will bring that strong message back to the Minister.

Sitting suspended at 3.20 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.

24/04/2018N00100Order of Business

24/04/2018N00200Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding (i) Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 (Variation of title: Dietician), and (ii) Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 (Variation of title: Speech Therapist) - referral to committee, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, motion regarding arrangements for the address to Seanad Éireann by Mr. Phil Hogan, European Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development on 26 April 2018, to be taken without debate; and No. 3, 448 24 April 2018 statements on councillors’ conditions, resumed, to be taken at 4.45 p.m.

24/04/2018O00100Senator Catherine Ardagh: I send my personal condolences and those of the Fianna Fáil group to the people of Toronto, especially the families of the ten people who were killed and the 15 people who were injured when a man drove a van into a crowd of pedestrians yesterday. I have family members in Toronto, who I visited last summer. It is an ethnically diverse and very safe city. One of the victims has been identified as a young woman who worked in an investment bank. She was on her lunch break when she was killed. The identities of others will be revealed in the coming days. My heart goes out to the people of Toronto. I hope this tragic incident proves to be an isolated one.

Five years have passed since the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant were abolished. It was promised that they would be replaced, but that has not materialised. I would like the Leader of the House to ask the Government to reinstate these important schemes which applied to disadvantaged people with disabilities. Their removal needs to be rectified.

I ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to bear with me while I raise a final item. Obviously, the MetroLink project is a very important part of Dublin’s proposed strategic infrastructure. I wish to highlight the effect it will have on a 50-year old urban Gaeltacht near Griffith Park in the north of Dublin city. I ask the Minister to be cognisant of the impact it will have on this Gaeltacht. Scoil Mobhí, a Gaelscoil on Mobhi Road, was informed on 22 March that Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, was proposing to install a tunnel boring machine launch site, works and a depot at the Griffith Park underground station on the Na Fianna pitches. The school shares the campus with Na Fianna, Scoil Chaitríona and the Tír na nÓg preschool. All of their buildings are within 5 m and 15 m of the site of the proposed tunnel. There is a very special relationship between the four institutions on the campus or hub, each of which is focused on the preservation of the Irish language and culture. The TII plan has the potential to have a negative impact not just on Na Fianna GAA Club and its pitches but also on the daily lives of the community on a campus on which the Irish language, culture and sporting traditions are central. Many children spend between 14 and 16 years moving from one institution to the next on the campus. When Project Ireland 2040 was announced last week, plans for the creation of a Dub- lin city language and cultural hub were included. It is important that this cultural hub, which has been established and developed on the site for the past 50 years, be nurtured and taken into consideration as MetroLink is progressed.

Roinneann Scoil Mobhí an campas céanna le Na Fianna, Scoil Chaitríona agus réamhscoil Tír na nÓg. Tá na foirgnimh uilig cóngarach - idir 5 m agus 15 m - don suíomh oibre. Tá gaol ar leith idir na ceithre hinstitiúidí ar an suíomh seo, agus gach uile ceann acu bunaithe ague dírithe ar chaomnhnú agus ar fhorbairt cultúr na hÉireann. Má dhéanann TII páirceanna Na Fianna a threabhadh suas, tá gach seans go loitfidh siad ní hamháin páirceanna agus club Na Fi- anna, ach freisin saol laethúil na scoileanna timpeall an champais, áit ina mbíonn an teanga, an cultúr agus na cluichí traidisiúnta lárnach. Caitheann go leor páistí idir 14 bliain agus 16 bliain ag dul ó scoil go scoil ar an suíomh seo. Cuireann an plean seo an Ghaeltacht uirbeach seo i mbaol. Luadh i Project Ireland 2040 plean chun “Dublin city language culture hub” a chruthú. I mo thuairim, tá sé níos tábhachtaí an lárionad Gaeilge agus cultúir atá cruthaithe cheana féin ar Bhóthar Mobhí, agus atá i dtuaisceart na cathrach le breis agus 50 bliain, a chothú. Ba mhaith liom cuireadh a thabhairt don Aire, an Teachta Madigan, teacht go dtí an Teach seo agus ráiteas a dhéanamh ar an ábhar seo.

24/04/2018O00200Senator Victor Boyhan: I thank the Leader for organising the resumption of the debate on 449 Seanad Éireann councillors’ pay and conditions this afternoon. More importantly, I thank him for organising statements on housing which will be taken tomorrow in the presence of the Minister for Hous- ing, Planning and Local Government. I look forward to contributing to that discussion which will be timely in the context of Rebuilding Ireland.

I want to spend some time acknowledging the contribution of the media. In recent weeks, we have heard how some journalists have come under enormous pressure to declare, or in some way identify, some of their sources. We, as politicians, recognise the importance of working in partnership with the media. The media works well on the whole. It relies on contact with politicians, policy makers and advocates and usually does a good job. In recent months, there has been much debate on, and investigation of, the role of the media and its reporting on the public, civic, artistic and, in particular, cultural and commercial aspects of the lives of our citizens. I wish to acknowledge the media, its work in terms of reporting on the political, commercial and civic life of our society, and how journalists carry out that work.

As I was travelling here this morning, I was thinking about an item mentioned on the “Morn- ing Ireland” RTÉ radio programme. I ask all Members to watch tonight’s episode of “Prime Time”, which will feature an RTÉ Investigates report on the harrowing story of three victims of sexual abuse who should have been protected by the State. The details of the case and those involved are in the public domain and due process has been done in terms of the court case. The report will be on “Prime Time” tonight. I wish to commend the bravery and courage of those who told their story as well as the journalists involved, in particular Aoife Hegarty of RTÉ Investigates, who assisted the three women to tell their horrific story. The programme is an example of good journalism, particularly investigative journalism.

Members may or may not be aware that Justine McCarthy, a journalist for The Sunday Times, recently won the Mary Cummins award for outstanding achievements in the media at the sixth annual Women in Media conference in Ballybunion, County Kerry. She works in this House and most Members know her. I wish to acknowledge that Justine never hesitates to take on institutions of this State, and politicians, if required, in the public interest and is fearless, forensic and fair in her journalistic work. It is a great day for her, journalism and the media and I wish her well.

24/04/2018P00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: And she won it in a good county. I thank Senator Boyhan and call Senator Conway-Walsh.

24/04/2018P00300Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I wish to extend our deepest sympathy to the bereaved families in Toronto, and all Canadian people, on yesterday’s incident which took so many lives.

I wish to discuss the hooded men briefing held in the AV room in Leinster House. I thank my colleague, Senator Niall Ó Donghaile, and Mr. Jim Gibney for organising it. I also thank the Tánaiste, Deputy Coveney, for agreeing to meet them this afternoon. I hope the meeting will be productive. Their main request and that of Sinn Féin is that the Government appeal the judgment of the European Court of Justice, ECJ, on this case. At the briefing we heard from Francie McGuigan and Liam Shannon in particular, two of the 14 men singled out for special treatment and torture during internment in 1971. Those not familiar with the events should look up what happened in the nine days for which these men were taken away and deemed missing, the techniques that were used and the sheer and utter brutality of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, RUC, with the backup of the British Army, in a purpose-built torture centre in Ballykelly. The ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in 1978 did not take into account all the relevant 450 24 April 2018 details. These men want to know who was responsible for what happened to them and why it was done. The main issue is the need for the Government to appeal the judgment of the ECJ. Uniquely, those who carried out the torture asked the British Government for immunity before the men were tortured. I was not aware of that until we heard the first hand experiences of the hooded men and from Darragh Mackin of their legal team. They described how they were taken in a helicopter and how they were hung backwards out of the helicopter. They were five foot from the ground but they had no idea how high in the air they were. They described how they were subject to white noise and how, for seven days, they were not allowed to use the toi- let. It was deemed as degrading and inhumane treatment. We are also aware that it was torture.

24/04/2018Q00200Senator David Norris: It was torture. The Senator is right.

24/04/2018Q00300Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I thank Senator Norris. The Belfast High Court and the British Supreme Court acknowledged that if it was done now it would be deemed as torture. I am asking for this to be done not just because of these men, but because of the international consequences of that kind of treatment not being deemed as torture. We need to take that into account. There was a British Minister in attendance at the time these torture techniques were being shown to be approved. It is for all of those reasons.

I commend the men and their legal team for coming down today. I commend the Tánaiste for meeting with them and I hope there will be a positive outcome. I ask the Leader, and the parties and Independent Senators who operate in the Seanad, to help these men to get this appeal in place. It is time limited and it needs to be done before the 15 May.

24/04/2018Q00400An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I am sorry to have missed them myself. I had prior engagement. I sent my apology.

24/04/2018Q00500Senator David Norris: I refer to my motion that Seanad Éireann requests the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, to delete Standing Order No. 41 that prevents the Seanad from accepting amendments that create a charge on the Exchequer. I have received a note from the Cathaoirleach’s office, on the advice of the Clerk. It states:

I regret [...] to have to rule that your motion in relation to the removal of Standing Order 41 is out of order on the basis that Standing Order 98 tasks the Committee on Procedure and Privileges with recommending “any additions or amendments to Standing Orders that may be deemed necessary”. As you know, the Committee has already been asked by you to consider a proposal in respect of Standing Order 41.

This is the most farcical ruling I have ever come across in a long career in Seanad Éireann. It is utterly inane. The very reason I sent the request to the CPP is because it is the committee that has the function of doing this. For what other reason would one send the request? It is linguistically, grammatically and legally utter nonsense to make such a ruling. I have consulted very widely legally on this. A senior counsel, a former Attorney General of this State, and the legal officer of the Labour Party have all agreed that this is utter, classic nonsense. It is wrong. It is an incorrect ruling.

I have already said that the 1922 committee, under the 1922 Constitution, had no such restriction on the powers of Seanad Éireann. I have been advised that a simple motion in my name and in the names of other Senators to delete this Standing Order would be legally appropriate and that Seanad Éireann could do it, regardless of the CPP. In deference to the CPP, however, and in deference to Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Cathaoirleach, I put in a request. If 451 Seanad Éireann one is not able to request something then there is no point in continuing.

Professor Gary Murphy of DCU has recently called for the abolition of the Seanad again, precisely because there has been no reform of any kind whatever; not a single stitch. This request is a significant reform that we could point to. All we are looking for is the right to debate issues. Every single Member of this House has complained about this restriction at one time or another.

I have received support in this regard, for which I am extremely grateful, from the entire Fianna Fáil Party, from the Sinn Féin Party, from the Labour Party and from the two sections of Independents in this House. That is very significant. I very much hope that my friends and colleagues in Fine Gael would find the courage to do the same and support this. It is actually a slavish following, with no argument, of a British parliamentary precedent. We are a republic. We should be prepared to take this on. I will be pushing this. I understand it is to be discussed at the next meeting of the CPP in May. I very much hope that we will take a firm decision and make this small expansion of the powers of Seanad Éireann as a significant measure of reform.

24/04/2018R00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: As the Senator knows, the Cathaoirleach has made his ruling regarding this matter. It is not for me to second-guess him but I understand that the matter will be dealt with in a substantive way at the next meeting of the CPP. We must let it rest there for the moment.

24/04/2018R00300Senator John O’Mahony: I congratulate Leinster on qualifying for the European Rugby Champions Cup Final and commiserate with Munster. The cost of flights to Bilbao on the weekend of the final is €800.

24/04/2018R00400A Senator: Disgraceful.

24/04/2018R00500Senator John O’Mahony: It is disappointing that our national carrier is charging those prices. I fully understand demand and supply but two nights’ accommodation in Bilbao is approximately €1,200 that weekend and the following weekend flights and two nights’ accommodation will cost €290. That illustrates how people are being exploited. Aer Lingus is the only Irish carrier flying directly into Bilbao. I am sure it will not dampen the spirits of the supporters but it certainly will lighten their pockets.

24/04/2018R00600Senator Robbie Gallagher: Ba mhaith liom cúpla focail a rá ar dtús faoi na mbunscoile- anna uilig atá ar fud na tíre agus an tóla maoinithe atá de dhíth orthu. I have raised the issue of funding of primary school education several times. A report issued yesterday shows that parents in this country are contributing €46 million per annum to the funding of primary education. I am sure that comes as no surprise to the parents of this country or to primary school principals or teachers. This needs to be addressed. Capitation grants go some way towards the cost of running our schools, but unfortunately the current capitation grant does not go halfway to accounting for the costs that it normally would meet, such as insurance, lighting, heating and other basic items.

It is regrettable that school principals and teachers are preoccupied with fundraising measures rather than concentrating on the job they are qualified to do, which is teaching our children. By extension, it is unfair to the children and to their parents. The children lose valuable teaching time because the teachers are preoccupied with making sure the school continues to run. The Minister for Education and Skills needs to come to the House to advise us on what moves he has in place to address this issue. School principals have said that it is critical to the 452 24 April 2018 future running of the schools. I compliment the parents of the country on all their hard work in fundraising activities, be it cake sales, 5 km walks or runs. I earnestly request that the Leader bring this information to the Minister and ask him to consider restoring the capitation grant to a level that will ensure the schools can run and that parents and teachers do not have to worry about raising funds to make sure they stay open.

24/04/2018S00100Senator Gerard P. Craughwell: I join my colleagues who expressed their sympathy with the people of Toronto. If the tragedy in Toronto has taught us nothing else it has taught us that a simple vehicle can now be used by those who wish to wreak mayhem within a community.

I also listened to the presentation by the hooded men today. My sympathy is with them and I congratulate the Tánaiste on meeting them. I hope there will be more than a meeting and that we see their case properly analysed.

Last week I called on the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Defence, An Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, to come to this House to discuss the crisis in the Defence Forces. I have not got anywhere with that so far, therefore, I am renewing the call.

I have some statistics that may be of interest. Recruitment is not working. There has been a fall-off in applicants for the Defence Forces from 2013 to 2016 with 55% less now applying. Media coverage of the state of income and conditions in the Defence Forces has led to a serious fall-off in recruitment. A total of 2,831 left between 2013 and 2017, representing a total of 29.8% of the entire Defence Forces. Some 76% of those retiring were premature voluntary retirements and of that group 34% had fewer than five years service.

When military capacity is reduced or cannot be produced it can take months or even years to replace those who have been lost to the service. While that is true of specialists, such as explosive experts, marine engineers, cyber and IT staff, pilots, etc., it also applies to soldiers, non-commissioned officers and officers who have acquired specific skills during the course of their service.

Between 2013 and 2017, 2,799 recruits or cadets were inducted. Of those who joined, 712 left, 576 left while in training and 31 cadets left while in training. That is an unbelievable number - people who had a clear career objective were forced to leave. Seven officers left with fewer than five years service.

The cost of training a recruit is €25,000 plus and the cost of training a cadet is €64,000 plus. The cost of the 503 who left in 2016 was €15.13 million to the Exchequer. Following the Lansdowne Road agreement, that rose to more than €20 million of a loss to the Exchequer due to soldiers leaving within five years of their service. We need An Taoiseach, the Minister for Defence, to come into this House to discuss these serious issues.

I have many more statistics which I will continue to release until such time as I get the response required. The Defence Forces are falling apart and we are standing idly by when we may very well be faced with a hard border in the not too distant future. We do not have the capacity to manage that hard border.

24/04/2018S00200Senator Ray Butler: I want to raise a survey carried out in England by Cancer Research UK which suggests that television advertisements for sweets, crisps and fast foods have a real impact on primary school children. Health organisations are looking for tougher advertising curbs in the forthcoming Government child obesity strategy. According to recent government 453 Seanad Éireann statistics for England, about one fifth of children in the last year of primary school, aged between ten and 11, and about 27% of adults are obese. Obesity has been linked to 13 types of cancer so far and polls have shown that many people are unaware of the link. I believe if the same study were done here, the findings would be the same. It is a huge issue, especially when it comes to diabetes and what follows on from diabetes with its link to cancer.

The Government should close existing loopholes and restrict children’s exposure to junk food marketing across all media by backing a 9 p.m. watershed. I would like to see that done in this country.

Having young children look at cartoons or television programmes in the afternoon can have a detrimental effect and put pressure on parents to go out and buy junk food. Changes can be made. It is all about education. I am a prime example of changing one’s lifestyle 4 o’clock and making a change in one’s life. It can be done, but we have to educate young people. It is all about education in schools and proper cooking at home as well. Nobody has any problem with having treats during the week, and perhaps once a week going to whatever fast food takeaway but not living on it for five, six or seven days a week. It is a huge issue. I would like the Minister to come in here to discuss a ban on the advertisement of junk food in this country between 2 p.m. and 9 p.m.

24/04/2018T00200Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I welcome the report by Helen Boaden on RTÉ’s symphony and concert orchestras entitled Ensuring a Sustainable Future. However, I do not think that is really the problem. In looking through the report, RTÉ talks about how funding the orchestras presents a challenge to its financial circumstances and the fact that, as the national broadcaster, it is legally required to maintain them. It also refers to how the orchestras have been underresourced for years and how RTÉ could not continue to fund them because of shift- ing consumer behaviours and preferences, and a decrease in the staffing for both orchestras and in the number of musicians. RTÉ recommends that the national symphony orchestra would remain a national cultural institution.

There are two examples of possibly the greatest orchestras in the world. One is Barenboim’s West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, which has Middle Eastern, Egyptian, Iranian, Israeli, Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinian and Syrian players. It is a cultural icon above politics that travels the world. The second is El Sistema from Venezuela, which has created youth orchestras all over the world and its players have gone on to be great musicians and great conductors all over the world. My point is that we cannot argue that we do not have the money for our National Sym- phony Orchestra or our second orchestra, the RTÉ Concert Orchestra, or that we only have €20 million for this and €10 million for that and €30 million for something else. We have to decide that they are an extraordinary part of our culture-----

24/04/2018T00300Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

24/04/2018T00400Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: -----and that they are the pinnacle of what other communities are trying to do through the power, elevation, energy and vitality of music. We cannot argue whether there should be this, that or the other. They must be part of our cultural heritage and musical life - our expressive life.

24/04/2018T00500Senator David Norris: Absolutely.

24/04/2018T00600Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: If they are to be in RTÉ then they are to get the money to be ring-fenced and developed so that the RTÉ Symphony Orchestra can travel. At the mo- 454 24 April 2018 ment the RTÉ Symphony Orchestra cannot travel and it has been reduced to 68 players. The RTÉ Concert Orchestra cannot do a lot of things because it does not have the money. It is an outrage that we cannot argue for them on the grounds of the power of music - the absolute en- cased power of the beating heart of all our percussive hearts - which is where we begin with the heartbeat of music. We have to argue it at that level.

If one looks at countries that have taken music and made it come alive for the gangs of Venezuela or for the political impasses of Israel and Palestine, that is the power of music. That is what I call for today. I know the Minister to be a very fine Minister who does not argue on the grounds of whether she has €20 million or whether it should be a cultural institution. Both of those orchestras should remain alive in our country. I wanted to put that on the record today because it is so important. It is not politics. We have the money. It is about the development of our expressive, cultural, rhythmic selves. I will leave you with this, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. Thank you for the time. It is most interesting-----

24/04/2018T00700An Leas-Chathaoirleach: There is a lot of injury time.

24/04/2018T00800Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: -----that in the leaving certificate we give 25 points for mathematics but we will not do it for music as a subject. I am trying to reverse that argument and come at it from a completely different angle.

24/04/2018U00200Senator David Norris: Well said.

24/04/2018U00300Senator Máire Devine: I have just come from a protest taking place outside the House by a bereft family who lost their young daughter to suicide a few months ago. They are calling for the introduction of a new law, Coco’s law. I am aware of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs report that was recently launched. We asked that digital harassment be included in the legislation to mitigate against and be a major deterrent to bullies online. That is a growing concern, particularly for vulnerable people and young people who do not have the skills to deal with it. I ask the Leader if we could have an update on the appointment of a digital safety commissioner and on the inclusion in the legislation of digital harassment, as recommended by the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs.

On a separate issue, will the Leader ask the Minister, Deputy Zappone, to let us know if the United Nations special rapporteur on the investigation into mother and baby homes, Pablo de Greiff, is coming to Ireland? It was mentioned on 1 June last year that his extensive experience and insights would help the Minister but there has been nothing about it since. The concern is that Dr. de Greiff will reach the end of his term as special rapporteur for the UN in May, which is about a week away. The issue is apt because there will be a long discussion on the matter tonight at the launch of My Name is Bridget in Dublin, which is the story of two missing baby boys from the Tuam Mother and Baby Home. It is the story of Bridget Dolan. Her daughter is trying to locate the two babies she believes were probably sold and whose bodies are not in the silo pit in Tuam. The Minister might be able to confirm the invite to the UN special rapporteur and whether it will happen before his term ends.

24/04/2018U00400Senator Gabrielle McFadden: Before I raise my issue I want to support Senator Marie- Louise O’Donnell on the issue of the orchestras. I agree with her that this is not about politics; it is about our culture.

I raise the issue of the announcement by Irish Water that it plans to submit a planning application for a new pipeline connecting water from the River Shannon to Dublin. The water 455 Seanad Éireann will be taken from Parteen, treated in Birdhill and transported to Dublin to supply Dublin and other areas in Leinster, including places in my area of Westmeath. It is estimated that there will be a need for approximately 330 million extra litres per day by 2050 to meet the needs of the growing population and the projections that have been studied.

I welcome any investment in Irish Water, and we all know that water has been a hot topic of conversation here. However, we also know now, and hindsight is a great thing, that there must be investment in water infrastructure. There has not been any serious investment in water infrastructure for more than 60 years. One could probably argue that there has not been proper investment in water infrastructure in the past 150 years.

I am keen to make sure that we invest in Irish Water but also that there would be a debate on it. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to come into the House to allow us discuss the future of the water pipeline between Parteen and Dublin, taking into account issues such as the route that has been chosen, the landowners who will be affected and the environmental impact. I ask the Leader if he could organise that.

24/04/2018U00500Senator Ivana Bacik: I would like to start by expressing my support for Senator Norris’s contribution earlier when he spoke about the motion he is seeking to bring before the Seanad. I was disappointed, as was Senator Norris, that it was ruled out of order. I would like to see us continue to press the point. As Senator Norris said, it is an important facet of Seanad reform that we would not restrict ourselves in the way we currently appear to believe we are. I hope we will move forward on this and I offer Senator Norris the support of the other members of his Technical Group, that is, the Labour Party Senators. It is a Seanad technical group and all of us are supportive of Senator Norris’s efforts and have co-signed the motion. As Senator Norris said, we also got legal advice on it and we believe it should be possible for the Seanad to take this motion. We will be pressing the matter further and I want to endorse what Senator Norris said on that.

I join with others in expressing sympathy to the people of Toronto on the horrific attack yesterday. Like others, I have spent time in Toronto. I worked there as a student and it is a really cosmopolitan, multicultural city. It is a very vibrant, young city and it is devastating to see that sort of fear being perpetrated on Yonge Street in the heart of Toronto city centre.

I also want to express support for the RTÉ orchestras and for the position taken by the union group in RTÉ that they would remain part of and under the umbrella of the national broadcaster. Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell is right to talk about the orchestra as well. It is such an important part of our panoply of cultural resources to have a symphony orchestra and a concert orchestra. The idea that we would downgrade or look to diminish the status of the orchestras further is wrong. We should look at bolstering the orchestras. I have met with some of the musicians involved and I know that there has been real concern about the failure to hire people where vacancies had arisen and about what appeared to be a gradual diminution of status of the orchestra. I hope we will see that trend reversed and I would like to work with colleagues on a cross-party basis to try to ensure we have protection for the status of the orchestras.

I ask the Leader for a debate, after the referendum, on the issue of political purpose and our legislation on the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, and on charities regulation. I ask this in light of what happened yesterday. I was present outside the Project Arts Centre when the mural painted by Maser, an internationally recognised artist, was painted over by Cian O’Brien, the artistic director of the Project Arts Centre in what he described as an act of defiant 456 24 April 2018 compliance with an instruction from the Charities Regulator in regard to the mural, which was a repeal the eighth mural. It is a mural that represented a picture that has become iconic. The Project Arts Centre had been told by the Charities Regulator it had to take it down and that it was in breach of the rules under the Charities Act 2009. We need to look again at how we leg- islate under the Charities Act 2009 and the broader issue around SIPO and its interpretation of the same sort of phrasing of political purpose. We have seen a lot of concern expressed by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and other NGOs about how this idea of political purpose has been interpreted in such a way as to curtail and restrict legitimate human rights activities of different organisations. It is a different issue from the Charities Act 2009, but the two are related. It would be worthwhile having a debate in this Chamber as to how best we could reform the legislation, both the Charities Act 2009 and the SIPO legislation.

24/04/2018V00200Senator Ned O’Sullivan: Today is the opening day of the Punchestown national hunt festival, which I suppose is Ireland’s Cheltenham, and we wish it good weather. It seems to me to be an opportune time to ask for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, to come into the House to give us an overview of the Irish racing situation as he sees it. I would like to hear his views on the recent development whereby the television coverage of Irish racing has been signed over to an organisation called Racing UK, RUK, which will have exclusive rights to show Irish racing for the next five years from January 2019 onwards. This has been welcomed by Horse Racing Ireland and by the racecourse owners’ association because they will be financial beneficiaries of this deal. That is important because they need that support, but it is very worrying to note the number of people who are very prominent in the horse racing business in Ireland who are expressing more concerns about this proposed monopoly situation.

At the moment a stay at home punter can watch racing live on television on two channels, namely, “At the Races” and RUK. “At the Races” is relatively cheap and can be bought as part of a normal Sky package. If one wants to watch RUK at the moment, one will pay €32 per month, or €350 for a yearly package. “At the Races” will clearly be in difficulty now that it can no longer access Irish racing and there is every possibility it will fold. When this five-year deal is over, it looks like we will have a monopoly. RUK will control the relaying of Irish television and it will be able to charge what it likes. I am no great fan of Mr. Michael O’Leary but he is a fairly good businessman, and he states it has all the appearance of a stitch-up and a monopoly. He is very concerned, as indeed are horse owners and horse trainers such as Mr. Willie Mul- lins and Mr. Robbie McNamara, who have spoken out. The man who will be hit by this is the ordinary fellow, the stay-at-home punter who has his little couple of bob each way every day, and fellows such as myself who like to have an occasional punt and are prepared to pay for a service but will not pay through the nose for it. I ask that the Minister would come in and outline whether he has any concerns about this development. I would welcome that.

24/04/2018W00200Senator Michelle Mulherin: I would like to raise a serious concern about the way An Bord Pleanála does its business. We have great plans for development and growth in this country, including infrastructure and roads, and private individuals have plans, whether it is to build a house or their businesses. We all would agree that they need to operate with efficacy, to see that time is of the essence and that time means money, and that we need projects deliberated upon as soon as possible.

I turn to the application currently before An Bord Pleanála which is for the replacement of Cloongullane bridge near Swinford, County Mayo. An oral hearing was heard in March 2017. Environmental issues were raised by the National Parks and Wildlife Service and were dealt with by the summer of last year. After that, we waited and waited for a decision from An Bord 457 Seanad Éireann Pleanála. The regional design office responsible for preparing the application on behalf of Mayo County Council was in touch regularly with An Bord Pleanála. I contacted it and there was no hint that there were any further issues. In fact, if there were, one would have imagined they would have been raised. In the first few days of January this year, An Bord Pleanála sought further environmental information, which required further studies relating to alluvial woodland. Most recently, I am told, there may also be an issue with freshwater pearl mussel.

Parking the environmental concerns aside, is this any way for An Bord Pleanála to do its business? Surely, it has some responsibility towards the State and towards the common good that it deals with cases, especially a critical piece of infrastructure such as the N26, a national primary road which is the most substandard section of national primary road in the country and which anyone who would travel it would not even think deserving of that categorisation. Nonetheless, An Bord Pleanála has failed to deal with this case. It is my understanding An Bord Pleanála is not understaffed at this juncture and it begs the question why it cannot see the urgent need to have this deliberated upon as soon as possible. If there are queries, let them be known to the applicant and let them be dealt with. This is no way to do business. I note we will have the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, coming before us tomorrow - at least, I hope it will be him. If not, I will be talking to him further about this. We cannot do business and achieve our plans and ambitions for growth in rural Ireland if An Bord Pleanála does not play ball.

24/04/2018W00300Senator Pádraig Ó Céidigh: Seo díreach cúpla focal mar gheall ar chúrsaí taistil sa tír seo. On a couple of occasions, I asked that the Leader ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to come before us to speak about various aspects of transport - Brexit being one. Now I am making a point about traffic congestion. It is a huge problem, particularly in my own city, Galway, but it is much wider than that. It is in Cork, Dublin and practically all over the country. Ask those in the Public Gallery, any of us, or anyone and they will say they could be travelling at least an hour to work and an hour home every day. That is a full day’s work a week in which they are caught up in traffic. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport which invited in the managers of both Galway County Council and Galway City Council to speak and deliberate on the traffic problem, especially in Galway but which is a nationwide issue.

We have a fairly simple straightforward suggestion. The World Economic Forum recommended this a week ago but our committee recommended it two months ago. We should engage with a professional organisation, such as Waze, which has partnerships with approximately 60 cities throughout the world but is not in Ireland. It will help with the technology and create feedback from the public on where traffic jams are and what is causing them. It is a simple solu- tion with no cost to the Exchequer or taxpayer. Something that happens in some Departments or, for example, the Revenue Commissioners is that when they want to focus on an area, they get an expert team to focus on it. I ask, through our Leader, that the Minister would consider setting up an expert team to look at traffic issues in Ireland that can move from one traffic- con gestion problem area to another. When one has an expert team of probably six or seven people, one can create a model or strategy for continuous improvement. Right now, it is somewhat comme ci, comme ça. If one is lucky, one can get into work in half an hour or three quarters of an hour and if one is unlucky, like the vast majority of people, it takes an hour or more every day to come to work and go home again afterwards. This is a huge economic problem. It costs a fortune. It is a huge issue for employers and employees, many of whom have people looking after their children when they go to work. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to explain what his Department’s strategy is for transport and travel congestion in Ireland.

458 24 April 2018

24/04/2018X00200Senator Neale Richmond: I welcome the revised trade deal agreed between the EU and Mexico over the weekend, which will be a massive boost to the Irish beef and dairy industry. I welcome other trade deals recently agreed with Japan, South Korea and Canada. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, or the Minister of State, Deputy Breen, to discuss all the future trade deals that the EU is lining up to allow Ireland to continue to trade with the world, which will be vitally important in the post-Brexit era, whether with Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Vietnam or a host of other countries where we are not trading. It gives us an opportunity to look beyond our nearest neighbour and to those new markets to support the indigenous economy and get us growing. I ask the Leader to arrange that debate as soon as possible.

24/04/2018X00300Senator Fintan Warfield: I, too, wish to talk about our national orchestras. It is political. If our classical musicians do not have a right to participate in that culture and the Government does not value our orchestras, an argument which could be made about previous years, then it is political. I welcome the report for two reasons. It states that both the RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra and RTÉ Concert Orchestra should be retained. I know, from speaking to musicians, there were concerns that lower numbers in both orchestras would result in one merged orchestra. The second issue is that the current funding situation cannot continue. Although the Minis- ter, Deputy Denis Naughten, might be happy to see it removed from being RTÉ’s responsibility, the funding will still have to be found. The funding issues involved in RTÉ, particularly with the two orchestras, have been evident for some time. Voluntary redundancies have decimated both orchestras’ numbers. It is, therefore, heartening to see the review recommend that funding be restored to its historic levels. Low staffing and funding have meant that the orchestras have not been able to undertake crucial roles in recent years, as mentioned by Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell, such as travel and community outreach across the island. The report has also made it clear that the current funding situation cannot continue. Both Ministers should move to ring- fence that funding to allow the orchestras to return to their previous capabilities.

24/04/2018X00400Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Hear, hear.

24/04/2018X00500Senator Fintan Warfield: The RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra should remain as part of RTÉ. It currently has a legislative responsibility to uphold a number of orchestras and any move would only bring further uncertainty to those structures and shirk the funding issues which need to be solved.

24/04/2018X00600Senator Kieran O’Donnell: I acknowledge that today, Transport Infrastructure Ireland formally moved ahead to appoint design and planning consultants for the M20 from Cork to Limerick. It is a major step forward. It is an €8 million contract for the design and planning of the M20 and it will be brought to An Bord Pleanála. It is a four-year contract. We will then proceed to move to tender to appoint builders to build the M20.

A number of things are required. The safety of the existing N20 leaves a lot to be desired. The commuting time between Cork and Limerick is between an hour and a half and two hours but we need to bring it down to 45 minutes. It is about balanced regional development. I spoke last week about having a debate on aviation policy. We are a small country. We must have interconnection. It is not just about the regions but about Ireland Inc. The Limerick to Cork motorway is a vital piece of that infrastructure.

I will put it in context. We want the Ryder Cup to come to Adare Manor in 2026. We should be aiming to have the M20 built by that date. It is an ambitious target but is nevertheless achiev- 459 Seanad Éireann able. If we do not set targets we will never get to build projects slightly ahead of time. It is very achievable. Would it not be great if our friends in Cork, Limerick and Galway could come to Adare via the M20 and see what our region has to offer? When people look at Ireland from abroad and are looking at whether the Ryder Cup should be here or in the UK, they would say the infrastructure is in place and that Adare Manor is a golf course of world renown. Padraig Haddington said it is the finest golf course in Europe. The M20 is a vital key ingredient in that.

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for allowing me to raise the issue. It is a positive news story. It feeds into the story of us being a small island and that of interconnection. When people are looking at Ireland, I want them to look at Ireland as a whole. I worry about us being completely regionalised because it means we do not get the synergies we should get. It would be fine if we were an enormous country but we are not. One can drive from one side of the 32 counties to another in a day. There are very few countries where one can do that. We need to think globally. A key element, if one is looking in from the outside, is the two largest cities outside Dublin are not linked by motorway. One has to ask why. It is now being remedied and it is a fantastic measure. It is a good day for Limerick and Cork and Ireland.

24/04/2018Y00200Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: We are at the end of our annual spring clean month. Many volunteers, amenity trusts and local authorities have done marvellous work across the country in a big clean-up. It is important we say “Well done” to them. Volunteers and those in the amenity trusts are unsung heroes. They are the people who get out and sweep and clean. We need to make sure we give them the praise they deserve.

I was disappointed to read in a national newspaper over the weekend that on Friday a Dub- lin-based DJ captured photos of bins overflowing with rubbish, grass covered in bottles, cans, food wrappers, cardboard boxes, napkins and food waste along the canal at Portobello following the lovely sunny day. I was disgusted by the level of dumping. The photographs have to be seen to be believed. In recent years, following a popular music festival, a local Carlow charity filmed a mind-boggling amount of rubbish, including really good quality camping equipment left behind. The video went viral because there was so much rubbish one could hardly see the grass. Someone has to pick it up.

This month I was blown away by the number of people who took part in the annual Carlow spring clean. The nationwide activity was made all the better because of the sunshine and warm temperatures. The bright sun shone like a light on a really sinister aspect of our attitude to the environment. There is a perception that someone else will pick up after us. While I was out on a local annual spring clean I heard an eight year old girl call out, as she was picking up rubbish, “Do they think that ditches are wardrobes?” Why do people feel they can litter, dump or pollute? Why do we just lie down and accept this behaviour? There are caravans, camper vans and broken down cars on green areas across the country. Drink bottles and clothing are often seen from tourist buses. “Wild”, “hidden” and “ancient” are great buzzwords in our fabulous tourism sector. Local authorities and communities are trying their best but something has to be done. There has to be consequences for illegal dumping. We need to look at how we are dealing with these issues. This situation needs to be addressed and we must ensure that people do not dump or pollute illegally.

24/04/2018Z00200Senator Colm Burke: I agree with my colleague, Senator Kieran O’Donnell, regarding the motorway from Cork to Limerick. It is an important development that the team has now been appointed to progress the project. We must fast-track it; it should not drag on for four or five years before construction starts. We should set clear timelines and aim to meet them. 460 24 April 2018 I also agree with the Senator that it would be a great achievement if Adare Manor got the Ryder Cup. The advantage of having a motorway built is that many of the people attending could stay in Cork and travel to Adare for the event. There is an advantage for both sides in that regard. The development of the-----

24/04/2018Z00300Senator Gerard P. Craughwell: It could go to Galway, too.

24/04/2018Z00400Senator Colm Burke: Senator Craughwell is dead right. This project is about developing the entire region, and it is important that the emphasis be on the growth of Cork and Munster and moving away from the major growth centre of the past 25 or 30 years, namely, Dublin, so that we can plan properly and ensure we have the necessary infrastructure.

I wish to raise another matter regarding the British media’s commentary on Brexit. I was shocked to read an article in yesterday’s edition of The Times written by Ms Melanie Phillips. She wrote: “The crisis bubbling just below the surface ever since Britain voted to leave the EU is now at the point of eruption.” She also wrote: “Only a tiny amount of trade crosses the Irish border.” For someone to write that in what I regard as a reputable newspaper-----

24/04/2018Z00500Senator David Norris: Owned by Rupert Murdoch, who has never owned anything reputable.

(Interruptions).

24/04/2018Z00700Senator Colm Burke: I will repeat her line: “Only a tiny amount of trade crosses the Irish border.” We need to consider whether our Government should provide briefing documents to members of the British media-----

24/04/2018Z00800Senator David Norris: Can they read?

24/04/2018Z00900Senator Colm Burke: -----regarding the level of trade. Interestingly, when I tweeted about this, someone replied that Ireland was the UK’s fifth largest export customer and that there were more exports from Britain to Ireland than there were from Britain to Spain or Italy. We must provide some education on this matter, as there is a great deal of misinformation that needs to be corrected. It is appalling that a journalist could write an article like this and believe she could get away with it.

24/04/2018Z01000Senator Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: I apologise, as I have just become aware of the serious issue that I wish to raise. However, it is urgent. It relates to incontinence nappies for children and adults with disabilities. My office and the offices of other colleagues are being called about problems with deliveries across the State. The parents and loved ones of those affected are being promised time and again that their deliveries will arrive the following day, but each day passes with more excuses. This is impacting on respite options for parents and loved ones. Ap- parently, the HSE is claiming that there was a change of contract in February. We need clarity about who the service provider is and why it is letting down our most vulnerable people. When will we have certainty that this issue will stop? The Leader will appreciate the immense problems it is causing the affected families.

I am also seeking an update on Swan Park. A meeting has been promised for quite a while. I will raise this matter until I have official confirmation that the meeting will take place.

24/04/2018AA00100Senator John Dolan: When I was listening to “Morning Ireland” this morning, I heard an item on the Heart Foundation and some research it had done on people with stroke. It was con- 461 Seanad Éireann sidering younger people with stroke. One of the startling and memorable statistics given was that one in four people with stroke is under the age of 65. We have a cultural fixation with the idea that stroke is a condition of older persons but it is not. There are children, young people and people of working age with that condition. It has huge ramifications for their families and for their work. It is a sweet but difficult example of many of the issues we need to face head on in respect of the work ahead of us on disability inclusion.

24/04/2018AA00200Senator Jerry Buttimer: I thank the 22 Members of the House for their contributions to the Order of Business. I join with all Members in offering our condolences to the bereaved in Toronto and we extend our sympathies to Mayor Tory on the tragic loss of human life. As Sena- tors Ardagh, Bacik and Craughwell rightly said, this was a person causing carnage by driving a truck down a busy street. I extend my sympathies and those of the Fine Gael Senators and the House. This type of reckless behaviour has no place in a modern society. I refer to reckless abandonment. I am not sure what the motivation for the incident was but it is important we all stand united in our condemnation of what took place in Toronto. Again, I offer our sympathies to the families of those who died in, as Senator Bacik rightly said, a multicultural and vibrant city. We hope Toronto will stand up and be united in its grief but also in coming back from this tragic event.

Senator Ardagh raised the issue of the mobility allowance. As the Senator knows, the Gov- ernment is working on new legislation for a new transport support scheme. The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, was in the House earlier this year and answered a Commencement matter from Senator Dolan. Efforts are ongoing to draft primary legislation for a new scheme. It has been unusually complex. In addition, the petitions committee, which I am a member of, has had the Ombudsman and the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, before it. I would be happy to have the Minister come to the House to update us on the matter. It is one the Gov- ernment is working on.

On the issue of the MetroLink, ar an gcéad dul síos ba mhaith liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis na príomhoidí, na múinteoirí, na tuismitheoirí agus na daltaí ó Scoil Mobhí agus an scoil eile. Gabh mo leithscéal, ach tá mé tar éis dearmad a dhéanamh ar a hainm. Tá a fhios agam gurb é Tír na nÓg an naíonra.

24/04/2018AA00300Senator Catherine Ardagh: Tá Scoil Mobhí, Scoil Chaitríona agus naíonra Tír na nÓg ar an gcampas seo.

24/04/2018AA00400Senator Jerry Buttimer: I commend the schools for their creation of an urban Gaeltacht. Senator Ardagh is right to highlight the matter. The national development plan has included the MetroLink north and south projects. As Members will be aware, legitimate concerns are being raised by Senator Ardagh but also by residents and stakeholders affected by the route of the proposed development of the MetroLink. Notwithstanding the benefits it will bring, it is important to listen and understand how we can deliver the MetroLink project while maintaining routes that do not affect the people spoken of this morning.

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, along with the National Trans- port Authority, NTA, are engaging in a public consultation process on the matter and it is due to conclude some time in May. I hope that as part of that consultative process, there will be real engagement with those affected. I have asked the Minister to come to the House to discuss transport matters because we have had a number of requests in the past number of weeks.

462 24 April 2018 Senator Boyhan raised tonight’s “Prime Time” programme but I do not want to pre-empt the issues coming up in the programme. However, it is important to recognise the serious issues being raised around foster care. I refer, in particular, to the issues of sexual abuse and breach of trust. None of us can condone or support any such behaviour. I hope that, with the airing of the segment on “RTÉ Investigates”, we will continue to see rigorous assessment and checks and balances in the area of foster care. As a former Chairman of the committee dealing with health and children affairs, I know that such incidents are rare. In saying that, where there are people opening their homes and offering children in need a place to receive love and care, it is important that foster carers be above reproach. I will watch the programme tonight and, if necessary, we will have the appropriate Minister come to the House to discuss the issue. The case in question was referred to the National Review Panel, which is an independent body, and there will be outcomes. We will await the discussion on the programme tonight.

Senator Victor Boyhan complimented and congratulated Ms Justine McCarthy on receiving in Ballybunion at the weekend the Mary Cummins Award for Women for Outstanding Achieve- ment in Media. I join the Senator in congratulating Ms McCarthy as we all recognise that she is a very fair and thorough investigative reporter. We congratulate her on being the recipient of this prestigious award. I also join the Senator in saying, as I have before on the Order of Busi- ness, that we need an independent media to hold the Executive to account and which are also fair and balanced in their approach to reporting.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh raised the matter of the hooded men. Like the Senator, I hope this afternoon’s meeting with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Simon Coveney, will bring further progress to the case being presented by the men in question. Looking at the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, the decision was six:one, which does not add up in some of our minds. In his interjection Senator David Norris made reference to the fact that it was torture.

24/04/2018BB00200Senator David Norris: It was.

24/04/2018BB00300Senator Jerry Buttimer: From reading the report and the testimony of the men, one cannot but infer that it was. I hope the Minister’s meeting with the men will bring further clarity to what the Government intends to do. I do not have any information on the meeting for the House today.

24/04/2018BB00400Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: The logical next step is to take the case to the Grand Cham- ber of the European Court of Human Rights.

24/04/2018BB00500Senator David Norris: Exactly.

24/04/2018BB00600Senator Jerry Buttimer: That is not for me to decide today but a matter for the Minister in consultation with the Departments involved. I will be happy to have him come to the House to discuss the matter. The important point is that he is meeting the men today and that their case is being heard further. I hope we will see justice prevail in the case, given the ruling made earlier which, to be fair, many of us could not comprehend.

I will not get into a row with anyone on the matter raised by Senator David Norris, but it will come before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The thrust of the motion is beyond my pay grade. I will not prevent the motion from being heard, but if it is ruled out of order, my hands are tied. I must defer to higher placed beings to decide such matters.

463 Seanad Éireann

24/04/2018BB00700Senator David Norris: I have written to the Cathaoirleach asking him to refer the matter to the law agent for review.

24/04/2018BB00800Senator Jerry Buttimer: I join Senator John O’Mahony, first, in congratulating Leinster on their magnificent victory at the weekend in the Champions Cup. I wish them well in the final. I also pay tribute to Munster and express pride in the manner of their comeback in the second half of the match. I share the Senator’s dismay and disappointment at the prohibitive cost of flights being offered to supporters of Leinster who wish to travel to the final. It is not good enough to see fares up to €800 being charged. I will be happy to have the appropriate Minister come to the House to speak about the issue. The Senator is a former Chairman of the committee dealing with transport and sporting matters and has been very strong in his defence of supporters of all sports who travel to and from events. It is not acceptable and disappointing to see fans being ripped off in this manner. It is a captive audience, given the nature of the event.

Senator Robbie Gallagher raised the matter of education and referred to the report from the Catholic Primary School Management Association. I remind the Senator that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, has increased the budget by €1 billion in the past two years and that €10 billion is being invested in education. It is the highest ever budget spend in the sector. In the past two years we have seen 5,000 special needs assistant posts created and there will be an extra 2,000 this year. There will be 1,280 extra teachers. The Government is fully committed to investment in education, with 110 schools in disadvantaged areas benefiting and 20,000 students being supported further. It is also important to recognise, which Senator Gallagher did not mention, that while there have been cuts to capitation, the cuts were first announced by the then Tánaiste, former Deputy Mary Coughlan, and the capitation levels are now above the 2008 levels. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, is committed to the restoration of the capital funding and to putting in place the operation of the parent and student charter. He is also asking schools to explain how they spend their allocation of funding. The Minister will come to the House. The programme for Government allows for an increase in capitation so we can have that debate when the Minister comes to the House in the next few weeks to discuss education.

Senator Craughwell raised the issue of the Defence Forces. We have given that matter a good airing in the past number of weeks. The Minister of State will be in the House next week, and I thank Senator Craughwell for not calling for a vote on the Order of Business. To be fair, he approached me about it prior to the Order of Business. The Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, will come to the House next week for the debate on the Defence Forces.

Senator Butler referred to obesity and diabetes in the context of a UK report on cancer. We have seen the introduction of a voluntary code in Ireland regarding the advertising and marketing of junk food to young people. It is important to have a debate on obesity and on how we can use the umbrella Healthy Ireland project to promote and have a better attitude to exercise, diet and lifestyle.

Senators Marie-Louise O’Donnell, Bacik, McFadden and Warfield raised the report published yesterday regarding the RTÉ orchestras. The comments of all Members of the House on the report and the orchestras are absolutely correct. Our cultural institutions must be enhanced. Members who sit in the waiting room in RTÉ on a Tuesday night as they wait to go on “The Late Debate” programme can hear the orchestra practising and can appreciate the level of endeavour and the quality and talent of the musicians involved. As Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell said, it is the culture of expression, the precision of the heartbeat and what gives us oxygen. If people attend the pre-Christmas “Sunday Miscellany” concert in the National Con- 464 24 April 2018 cert Hall they will see in huge graphic detail the power of the orchestra and the importance of these cultural institutions.

The Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Madigan, said in the Dáil today that she and the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Naughten, will examine the report and return with recommendations. This is of extreme importance. We might disagree as to whether it should be under the remit of RTÉ or elsewhere but we all agree that both orchestras must be protected and supported. I agree with the remarks of the Senators this afternoon on the matter. While it is about culture it is also about what we stand for as a people and how we view ourselves. If we cannot stand united on this, we count for little in terms of our culture. The Senator is correct that it is the beating heart. I will be happy to schedule a debate when the Minister is ready to make recommendations or even prior to her making her decision.

I do not have the answers to Senator Devine’s questions regarding the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, and the UN rapporteur. I am not aware of the issues in terms of what the Senator referred to as not happening. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, is very committed to the mother and baby homes issue.

With regard to the digital commissioner, that matter is before the Government. The Minister was in the House before Christmas to discuss the issue and I will be happy to invite the Minister back to the House to discuss it. The Senator is correct that online digital harassment is becom- ing far too prevalent and causing far too much distress to people. It is having a detrimental effect on their mental health. We must work collectively to ensure it can be stamped out, and I will be happy to work with the Senator on that. I do not have the information to hand but I will endeavour to get it for the Senator or, if she prefers, she could submit a Commencement matter. Senator McFadden raised the issue of Irish Water, planning and the Parteen Basin to Dublin proposal. She referred to the importance of investment in our water infrastructure, which is something we certainly should support. In the context of a post fee era, the issue of Irish Water is really relevant.

I agree completely with Senator Bacik regarding the mural at the Project Arts Centre that was taken down. The relationship between the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, politics and the Charities Regulator under the Charities Act must be addressed. We can become over zealous and too politically correct. That is certainly a debate that should happen. Perhaps the Taoiseach is correct that the mural in favour of repeal of the eighth amendment gained far more notoriety than it would have had if there had been no kerfuffle about it. I commend the artist involved.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan raised the very important issue of the position of the horse racing industry in our country. I agree that there is a need to have a debate on the avoidance of a monopoly in the transmission of race meetings and am happy to organise same. While I would defer to Senator O’Sullivan’s superior knowledge when it comes to horse racing, I would suggest that the fact that Channel 4 has now transferred racing coverage to ITV means that it is less accessible to Irish viewers. I subscribe to Sky but do not have Sky Sports. Unless TV3 is carrying Cheltenham or Aintree, I will have difficulty watching racing. The point the Senator makes is that “At the Races” provided an important and valuable service in terms of showcas- ing Irish racing. The possibility of Racing UK having a monopoly is a matter of concern. I am happy to invite the Minister to the House to discuss the matter.

465 Seanad Éireann Senator Mulherin raised the issue of An Bord Pleanála in the context of plans and ambitions for growth in rural Ireland. She is a champion of rural Ireland and regional development and has raised such matters on many occasions. It is important to recognise that An Bord Pleanála is independent of the political process. That said, it is important that the board delivers reports on oral hearings in a timely manner and does not prolong issues in rural Ireland. I am happy to schedule a debate on that matter.

Beidh plé againn mar gheall ar chúrsaí taistil. Senator Ó Céidigh asked for a debate on transport and I am happy to have the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, come to the House to discuss traffic congestion in particular, as well as investment in public transport. Senator Rich- mond praised the Government in the context of the EU-Mexico trade deal. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Breen, for his role in that matter. As Senator Richmond rightly said, we are proud to see trade links being developed with Japan, South Korea and Canada. Given President Trump’s propensity to engage in trade wars, it is important that we broaden our horizons and open Ireland up to new markets across the world. I am happy to have a debate on that issue in the coming weeks.

Senators Kieran O’ Donnell and Colm Burke raised the matter of the M20, a very important piece of infrastructure. I welcome today’s announcement of the tender to appoint design and planning consultants, which will bring the €8 million M20 project closer to fruition. This is such an important piece of infrastructure for the south and south west. It has the support of this Government because of its importance to the Cork-Limerick region in terms of connectiv- ity. Senator O’Donnell is correct to ask for a deadline of 2026 for completion to support Adare Manor’s Ryder Cup bid. I am happy to support Senator O’Donnell in making that call.

I join Senator Murnane O’Connor in commending all of the volunteers who were involved in national spring clean month. In particular, I commend the Tidy Towns volunteers who do a huge amount of work across the country, week in and week out. Reference was made to the canal in Portobello, which reminded me of Paddy Kavanagh’s poem, Canal Bank Walk:

Leafy-with-love banks and the green waters of the canal,

Pouring redemption for me.

The Grand Canal in Dublin, of which the Barrow Line is a branch, joins the River Barrow navigation in Senator Murnane O’Connor’s county of Carlow. The canal bank is a tremendous asset and provides a place to walk and exercise. We must take personal responsibility for the rubbish which is discarded on the banks. We need to call out the people who are throwing rubbish in these areas and highlight it. I will be happy for the Minister for Communications, Cli- mate Action and Environment, Deputy Naughten, to come to the House in regard to the matter.

Let me confirm to Senator Colm Burke that we will be having a debate on Brexit. I commend him for his tweet today. The Border is not just a small matter, it is of significant importance to the people on the island of Ireland and, as Senator Burke rightly said, the author of the article knows little when she states that only a tiny amount of trade crosses the Irish Border. There are also the excursions back and forth.

Senator Mac Lochlainn raised the issue of the provision of goods and nappies for those who are incontinent. I am not aware of the matter he raised but it beggars belief that there should be an inordinate delay for people who are most vulnerable, be they adults who require incontinence pads or children who require nappies. We must get an immediate answer to this matter. 466 24 April 2018 I assume the HSE is the body responsible for the delivery of the items. I am not sure to which area the Senator is referring, but the matter needs to be addressed urgently. I have not gone up to Swan Park, but I put a request into the Minister’s office, as I said I would.

Senator Dolan is correct to highlight the issue of the Irish Heart Foundation report this morning and to commend Mr. Chris Macey, the head of advocacy on the work he is doing. The Senator is correct, it is not only older people who are now prone to suffering a stroke, younger people are having strokes and that is why we need to be very clear around the issue of strokes. It goes back to Senator Butler’s point regarding a balanced lifestyle, health and exercise. We will invite the Minister to come to the House to debate this in the coming weeks.

24/04/2018EE00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Will the Leader confirm that No. 2 will be taken on the conclusion of No. 1?

24/04/2018EE00300Senator Jerry Buttimer: Yes.

Order of Business agreed to.

24/04/2018EE00500Health and Social Care Professionals Regulations 2018: Referral to Joint Committee

24/04/2018EE00600Senator Jerry Buttimer: I move:

That Seanad Éireann approves the following Regulations in draft:

(i) Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 (Section 95(3)) (Variation of title: Dietician) Regulations 2018;

(ii) Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 (Section 95(3)) (Variation of title: Speech Therapist) Regulations 2018,

copies of which were laid in draft form before Seanad Éireann on 10th April, 2018, be referred to the Joint Committee on Health, in accordance with Standing Order 71(3)(k), which, not later than 15th May, 2018, shall send a message to the Seanad in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 75, and Standing Order 77(2) shall accordingly apply.”

Question put and agreed to.

24/04/2018EE00800Address by Commissioner Phil Hogan: Motion

24/04/2018EE00900Senator Jerry Buttimer: I move:

That Seanad Éireann agrees with the recommendation of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that, in accordance with the provisions for the address to Seanad Éireann by Distinguished Persons, Mr. Phil Hogan, European Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, be invited to address Seanad Éireann on 26th April, 2018, and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, unless otherwise ordered, the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) the Seanad shall meet at 10 a.m. on Thursday, 26th April, 2018;

467 Seanad Éireann (ii) Standing Order 30 shall stand suspended;

(iii) there shall be no Order of Business;

(iv) the proceedings in respect of the address by Commissioner Hogan shall commence at 11 a.m. and shall conclude no later than 12.45 p.m. and shall consist of –

(a) a speech of welcome by the Cathaoirleach,

(b) an address by Commissioner Hogan,

(d) a contribution not exceeding three minutes from other Senators,

(e) a contribution not exceeding three minutes from the Leader of the Seanad,

(f) not later than 12.30 p.m. a response by Commissioner Hogan,

(g) a speech of thanks by the Leas-Chathaoirleach;

(v) on the conclusion of the proceedings in respect of the address by Commissioner Ho- gan the sitting shall stand adjourned until 2.30 p.m on Tuesday, 1st May, 2018.”

Question put and agreed to.

24/04/2018FF00100Councillors’ Conditions: Statements (Resumed)

24/04/2018FF00200Acting Chairman (Senator Diarmuid Wilson): I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy John Paul Phelan, back to the House for the fourth time in as many months. Senator John Dolan has six minutes.

24/04/2018FF00300Senator John Dolan: I thank the Minister of State for being here. My election campaign experience was interesting. I have known councillors all of my life through my work and so forth but the campaign was a very telling experience for me. I found that coun- 5 o’clock cillors were ready to respond and support local people with disabilities and their families. They did not say that they would not take one step beyond the remit of a local authority member because they understand community innately and that is a great asset. They are the connection and they wear their community interest as proudly as their party badge, if they have one. They work across the chamber with other colleagues, regardless of party, in order to progress matters for their communities.

People with disabilities and others live in local communities; they do not live in the Depart- ment of this or that. That is where all of the stuff either interconnects and dovetails or falls apart. That is a critical factor in terms of the role of councillors and local authorities and is something about which we should think more. How can they play a better role in showing how things work or do not work locally? They are in a critical space with deep local knowledge and the State and the Government must honour and support that now.

The Seanad had a lucky escape a few years ago. There was an attempt to abolish it. Local 468 24 April 2018 authorities got a pretty tight shaving as well when the whole lower layer was taken out. There is a paralysis regarding giving local authority members decent, 21st century supports to do their job. I want to ask a very provocative question. Does this Government want Ireland to have a functioning and thriving local authority element of democracy? Local government is the first level of democracy. There is a cynicism or fear at the heart of the slowness to deal with this issue. I also believe that members of local authorities and the authorities themselves need to be challenged. It is not all one-way traffic here. Reform is needed and members can play a stron- ger and better role. It is about more than mileage, travel expenses and allowances.

The Government could solve this problem fairly smartly but is afraid of or nervous about public cynicism about politicians in general. If we do not talk up, support and properly reform this level of democracy, what will happen next? The same people will come after the national level. In that context, it is important not to be afraid. Supporting local councillors and their work is not about supporting party cronies; it is about supporting people who are the first line of democratic participation and representation in this country. If we at a national level do not bolster and support councillors and enhance their role, the next group that the cynics will come after will be the people in these two Chambers. Councillors are our front line troops. We might not be happy about everything they do every day but we have to decide what horse we are backing. Reform is an essential part of this. While we can talk about money, travel, subsistence and so forth, the heart of this issue is not about money. It is about having a flourishing local, community-based, democratic system in Ireland and councillors are at the root of that.

There are two pillars involved and we need to sort out both of them. On the one hand, there is the practical, bread and butter pillar including mileage, travel expenses, allowances and so forth. Remuneration and work related expenses form one pillar. The other pillar, to which we must give attention, is the supports provided to councillors and local authorities, including research supports and facilities for communications and engagement. We need to build on both aspects. We need to give councillors a challenging and meaningful role within their communities and within the extensive civil society sector. Their role is not just about making representations on behalf of people, although that is a vital part of their job. Just as important is public participation, networks, groups and so forth and making sure that they can be supported.

24/04/2018FF00500Senator Jerry Buttimer: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, to the House for the fourth time.

24/04/2018FF00600Senator (Acting Chairman) Gerry Horkan: This is his second time here today.

24/04/2018FF00700Senator Jerry Buttimer: Indeed it is. This is about the role of the councillor at the heart of community. While some will suggest that this debate is just about remuneration, expenses and allowances, it is about a lot more than that.

Having served on a local authority myself, I believe that councillors are deserving of a realistic income which should be put on a statutory basis. Local government members contribute to public bodies, to the betterment of our health and education systems and the improvement of our local government areas. Senator Dolan spoke about the issue of supports. Councillors are involved at municipal district level, they sit on strategic policy committees, on education and training boards, ETBs, on transport policy committees and development committees for cities and counties. This work requires support.

If Members of the Oireachtas had to do their work without secretarial assistants or if Dáil

469 Seanad Éireann Members had to work without parliamentary assistants - to which Senators should also be entitled - they would not be able to be focused and professional.

Last week in Cork city there was an impasse between the local authority and traders on Patrick Street regarding access. Local councillors sat down with the traders, engaged and took the time to arrive at a decision that was not based on a whim but on real information. I would contend that the management of the local authority had that information at its finger tips but the councillors did not.

The Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, made a presentation to Members prior to the beginning of this debate. That 541 councillors would be disadvantaged financially makes no sense. It is wrong. I know of one member in west Cork who stands to lose a significant amount of money. To be fair to her, it is not about money for her. She takes her role very seri- ously in being on interview boards and different council sub-committees.

The Minister of State is very sincere and genuine, having been involved in politics for a long time, including as a councillor. He is committed to the establishment of an independent review group. I hope it will be able to carry out its work in a timely and urgent manner, that it will not take forever to report and that it will come back swiftly. It is about ensuring the proposed remuneration reform group will deliver a report at which councillors can look and I hope buy into. The AILG has asked for it to have an independent chairman from outside the realm of the existing pool of potential chairmen. There is an impasse and we are at a crossroads in local government. I do not say that in a populist way because, as Members of this House, councillors are our constituents. I say it as an anorak who is concerned about the way politics is going in general. I have repeatedly said we cannot allow politics to become the preserve of the few, people who are independently wealthy and can delve in an out. I have spoken to councillors who are working and trying to strike a balance in leaving work to attend meetings at 3 p.m. and then having to go back to work. They have to take days off work or their businesses have closed as a result of their being involved in politics. That is what we are looking at.

We are on the precipice of the 2019 local elections. An independent review group is to be established, while in time a boundary review group will report to the Minister of State. It is critical that after a time in which there was the withdrawal of money and goodwill from local authority members we and the Government turn the ship around, support them and give them our imprimatur as Members of this House. Local government is not just about fixing potholes and lamps, as some people seem to think. It is about the future of cities and our counties. It is about the planned balanced development about which we talk here in the context of regional regeneration. It is also about the delivery of an enhanced public realm, with ensuring we will have services and the provision of housing. That is what people are talking about. It is not about footpaths and fixing potholes, rather it is about the lives of people and the impact it has on them. I commend the Minister of State and wish the review group well. I hope it can do its work in a timely manner.

24/04/2018GG00200Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: I thank the Minister of State and welcome him to the Chamber.

As a former councillor, in speaking about councillors’ conditions I want to highlight an aspect of their work about which we seldom talk. When we hear about the unacceptable figure of 10,000 people who were homeless in the State last month, we are filled with disgust. No one is frustrated more by the figures than the people on the ground who work with families, children 470 24 April 2018 and the elderly. I draw the Minister of State’s attention to the figures because each number represents a real person who is asking for help. The people who are dealing with the human beings on the ground are councillors in every town and county and those involved in charities who deal with the homeless. Councillors in local areas are the ones who are trying to help a mother as she cries in placing her children in a hotel room for another night. There is uncertainty in such an instance. The councillor is the one on the telephone to the local housing officer pleading for someone to hear the plight of yet another person in crisis. It is a local councillor to whom such persons go first. Why do we treat councillors with disrespect and such unfairness? They work way beyond the regular nine-to-five hours. People need their help at all hours of the day and on all days of the week. As I was a councillor for over two decades and know how hard I worked, I know how hard they work. Local councillors want to help. They want to change their world. That is why they get involved in politics in the first place. They are not paid a massive amount of money. They are paid a total annual allowance of €16,645 and receive some expenses. Many of them have two or three jobs. Many of them have trouble in meeting their bills, but they go out and work with families to try to do their best to solve the problems of others. They try to bring jobs and money to the local economy. They are the unrecognised first responders in many crises. We owe them more for the service they provide.

Fianna Fáil supports fair pay and conditions for local representatives. It is also important that the local government system be overhauled and reformed to give local representatives additional powers and responsibilities. Local government is a key tier of government, the one closest to citizens. It is vital in a healthy democracy that representatives be empowered and are able to represent everybody. A fair and equitable pay and conditions framework is central to that objective. The Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform announced in February that he would establish a review of councillors’ pay and conditions. The review is due to be completed by the end of 2018 and is being undertaken by an independent consultant. The move comes on the back of the reduction in the number of councillors under the Local Government Reform Act before the local elections in May 2014. With the abolition of some councils and the amalgamation of others, the number of local representatives decreased from 1,627 to 949. That is unacceptable. The 949 members were surveyed in July and August 2016 and the overwhelming conclusion was that councillors’ workload had increased greatly. The geographical areas for which they were responsible also doubled in size. There is now one councillor for every 4,500 people.

I am upset because I do not think the Minister of State is listening to councillors. When he is not listening to them, he is not listening to the people whom they represent and who are coming to them. When the Government abolished town councils, we lost funding for every town council. As a result of the amalgamations, there is now one budget in local authorities. It is not enough. I can only speak about my area of Carlow. When we talk about central government funding, in Carlow we receive one of the lowest amounts in the country. I have brought up the issue several times with the Minister of State, but he is not listening. I am asking him to listen to councillors and Senators because we represent them. Mainly, I am asking him to listen to the people, those who are crying out for help and who depend on councillors. I hope he will come back with a fair deal for councillors and listen to the people.

24/04/2018GG00300Senator Victor Boyhan: I welcome the Minister of State. I do not for one moment doubt his absolute commitment. I get a sense that he relishes and is excited about the plans for the reform of local government. He is someone with whom I worked on the General Council of County Councils. I know of his vigour, enthusiasm and commitment to local government.

471 Seanad Éireann I looked at the numbers on my database for county councillors. I will give the Minister of State the figures. The round figure is 950. There are approximately 235 Fine Gael councillors; 266 Fianna Fáil councillors; 147 Sinn Féin councillors; 202 independent councillors; 50 Labour Party councillors; 12 Green Party councillors; and 38 others. That gives one a sense of the dynamics involved. I do not think it is a party thing. Across the House, we all recognise the need for politicians at every level in the parliamentary process and local government to be remunerated fairly. We have to obtain a fair deal for councillors. The Minister of State was involved with LAMA and the AILG. A number of Fine Gael councillors who met the Minister of State in private session in Dungarvan were excited by all of the promises made, but they are not so excited today. Different political groupings have had their expectations raised only to be disappointed.

I will focus unapologetically on proper and fair remuneration for councillors. I propose that it be €28,000, at a minimum, and possibly €30,000. I make no apologies and do not care if Joe Duffy is listening. I am prepared to go on any television or radio station and argue strongly that the elected members of all parties need to be treated fairly in terms of their commitment. Some- one asked me once to describe what is the job of a county councillor. I said: “Well, it is a bit of a cross synergy really because you’re a bit of a priest, you’re a bit of a social worker, you’re a bit of an advocate and, to a lesser extent, you’re a bit of a politician, and you have to juggle a lot of demands, a lot of asks, in your own community.” There is nothing worse than not being able to deliver for your own community. One of the great things about local government in this country, and for that matter, all politics in this country, is that the electorate has very easy and ready access to politicians. I think that is a good and a very healthy thing. It is something that does not happen across Europe but it certainly happens in Ireland. It is very frustrating when one is asked and challenged to make a strong case for one’s community and the people one lives among and for enterprise and community initiatives and one cannot deliver. However, parking all of that, a lot of people want to remain in local government but they cannot sustain their job in local government and are going to have to leave.

It is incumbent on the Minister of State to stop all the promises. I will read a letter I wrote to the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, on 8 February 2018 and I received a response on 13 April. I have it in front of me. In summary, it says that I raised a number of questions in relation to sitting county councillors and their remuneration, but the Minister informed me that the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, is to consider sitting county councillors’ pay in the first instance. That is what is happening. Every time I meet someone it is a case of Paschal or the Minister is looking at it. When I meet another Minis- ter he tells me the Department is dealing with it. It is a joke. I do not think we should apologise about paying the councillors a fee. It has to be in the context of better local government, which is part of the Government’s reform for local government. A whole load of changes are planned as we go forward.

I must tell the Minister that councillors from his party and from none, Independents, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Labour Party, People Before Profit and the not for profit, whoever they are, are absolutely frustrated and they do not believe they have any real champion. It is easy for me as an Independent to say this. There are three Fine Gael Ministers in the Custom House. There is a Fine Gael Minister in the Department of Finance. I ask Fine Gael councillors what influence they have. Why do they keep telling me that in another few weeks they will be getting this or that? That is not to point score but I just want to make the point that the time has come to give those people proper recognition for their work and proper pay to sustain them because far

472 24 April 2018 too many councillors have told me they are dipping into their pockets, into their housekeeping money, to pay and to subsidise their work on behalf of local communities. If we do not value ourselves, who else will?

People in the Minister of State’s party and none want to stay in local government and the time has come for action. I would like to hear today from the Minister of State how much progress he has made in getting an independent chair. Could he give a short timeframe rather than a long one? Could whatever recommendations that he will support be implemented without delay, not on a promise and not next year? If the committee and terms of reference are established with an independent chair in the next few weeks, could we set a target? Could the Minister of State come back here, hopefully at the end of September with hard commitments for us to implement? That is what people would like and I do not doubt for one moment that is what the Minister of State would like.

24/04/2018HH00200Senator Fintan Warfield: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, to the House. I regret that I did not have an opportunity to speak in the previous debate on councillors’ pay and conditions but I am pleased to do so now. Councillors are one of the most crucial tenets of this State’s democracy. They provide in-depth knowledge of a particular local area, its community, its infrastructure and its vitality as part of wider Irish society.

The work that we do in this House is largely focused on national issues. While that is the way it should be, we should not lose sight of the fact that councillors do not receive the same opportunities that we, as Oireachtas Members, do. That is in spite of the fact that no councillor seeks election to a local authority to be well paid or receive the high status of office that often happens here in the Oireachtas. Many councillors hold two jobs. They surrender their evenings and weekends as part of their work. They do so out of commitment, duty, passion and love for their local community. They do not receive gratitude that matches the hard work they do. The sacrifices they make can be to the detriment of their family life, social life, relationships, physi- cal and mental health. I concur with everything Senator Dolan spoke about. The question is whether we want a good element of local democracy and a flourishing local democracy. If so, then we should back the reform horse.

In the context of our discussions tomorrow on the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill, I note there are interesting, creative propositions that support councillors. Senator Boyhan is carrying that into his everyday work in the Oireachtas and I look forward to speaking in support of his amendment to allow fees for observations and submissions regarding planning to be waived in the case of councillors.

The Sinn Féin spokesperson on housing, planning and local government, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, is undertaking a scoping exercise on this matter in order to bring proposals to the Sinn Féin Party during the summer and we will forward the proposals on councillors to the Minister of State for his consideration on the issue. However, we can say that a reasonable salaried income is required that reflects the work done and one that does not actively discourage our best and most committed councillors and, as Senator Buttimer said, those who cannot afford to take on the role as it stands.

Further to that, there are has been much discussion in recent months of the centenary of women’s suffrage and, inevitably, debates about encouraging equal gender participation across the political institutions. The National Women’s Council of Ireland, NWCI, in its report on closing the gender pay gap, recommended varied measures around childcare and sufficient ma- 473 Seanad Éireann ternity leave to support women in the workplace. I commend the Sinn Féin councillor in Cork, Danielle Twomey, who has raised the issue of councillors not receiving maternity leave. It is a scandal that if they take six months leave from their roles, they will be deemed to have resigned from their roles. If we are to truly discuss how we are to encourage women into politics and lead by example on making the workplace a welcoming environment for women, we cannot continue to turn a cheek to that blatant obstacle facing members of society. Could the Minister of State please comment on that final point as well?

24/04/2018HH00300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I welcome back to the House the former Senator, now Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, for the fourth time on this topic in recent months. As I alluded to previously, it is a very important issue. I also welcome the fact that when we ran out of time on the previous occasion the Minister of State agreed to come back to the House to hear the views of those Senators who did not get to speak then.

In his contribution on the previous occasion, the Minister of State pointed out that some improvements have been made to the supports provided to councillors in the past 12 months. I take issue with a number of those changes which I argue were not positive for the majority of county and city councillors. The PRSI payable by councillors is now equal to that paid by the self employed. However, that is of little or no benefit to the majority of councillors. The sum of €1,000 was provided to recognise the additional workload which has arisen as a result of the creation of the municipal districts but that has not been added to the expenses of councillors. Even though they are expenses, they have been added to the representational allowance, which is subject to income tax and PRSI. The option of claiming €5,000 of vouched expenses is so restrictive that fewer than 3% of councillors have availed of it. Of the 55 councillors on Cork County Council, for example, only one has opted for it.

Another of last year’s measures changed the payment rates for mileage and introduced a banding system on par with that in the rest of the public sector. The bands and rates were agreed to by the public sector unions and representatives of the Government without any input from those who represented local authority members. It is a fundamental principle of any negotia- tion on public sector pay and conditions that the people affected be represented. I regret that this courtesy was not afforded to local authority members through the AILG or LAMA. As the Leader said, the bands have led to the introduction of a requirement for the aggregation of travel claims by members of local authorities across the various bodies in which they represent the public. To reiterate, they are representing the public, not themselves. We in the Oireachtas have placed an obligation on local authorities to nominate various members to serve on education and training boards, ETBs, regional assemblies, the governing authorities of various third level institutions and many other bodies. We are now requiring councillors and their parent local authorities to administer an extraordinarily convoluted system for the payment of a pittance to local authority members to cover their travel expenses which they incur in doing their duty. As a result of the changes, quite a few members have become disadvantaged financially. The new system of travel expenses has caused significant difficulties for rural councillors, in particular. Some councillors who represent rural constituencies, in some cases island communities, are losing up to €4,500 or €5,000 for doing their job.

Special recognition needs to be given to the unique status of the role of the local elected member within the local government system. The possibility of having a dedicated travel rates system applicable to local authority members only needs to be considered. No elected members can be allowed to be worse off owing to the so-called improvements to which the Minister of State alluded previously. It is welcome that the Minister of State is considering establishing 474 24 April 2018 a review body to examine the basic payment to councillors. I agree with Senator Victor Boy- han and other colleagues who have contributed on this debate that we should not be reluctant to stand up in the Chamber and fight for proper basic salaries and pensions for the politicians at the coalface of our democracy, namely, county councillors. I would like to see a deadline placed on the review body’s work. Perhaps the Minister of State might be able to enlighten us since his consideration of the issue has progressed since he appeared before us a number of weeks ago. That there would be an independent chairperson is welcome, but he or she should have a knowledge of local government. Preferably, the chairperson should be a former senior member of a local authority who understands what it is like to represent the general public and the struggle involved.

I thank the Minister of State for returning to the House. If he does not have good news for us now, we look forward to progress having been made by the time he appears before us for a fifth time to discuss the matter. The situation has been ongoing for too long.

24/04/2018JJ00200Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank Senator Diarmuid Wilson. He and I will swap place in order that I might speak for a few minutes, after which the Minister of State will conclude the debate.

24/04/2018JJ00300Senator Gerry Horkan: I thank the Minister of State for attending. I appreciate that 15 Senators spoke on the last occasion and that I am the seventh this evening. With the possible exception of Senator Ray Butler who rose straight to the top, everyone else present in the Chamber has served on local authorities, some of us for a little longer than others. The Minister of State joined the Seanad relatively quickly, but the dual mandate was still in place for a little while. Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor has even longer service than me. I had 12.5 years service and Senator Victor Boyhan was not too far behind me.

I enjoyed every minute I served as a councillor. I was chairperson of the former Dublin Re- gional Authority. I was also chairperson of the new Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, while I was a member of an ETB, theatre boards and audit committees. The members of many of these bodies received no remuneration at all. The Pavilion Theatre’s board was a great one to be on, but there was nothing extra for attending all of the extra meetings, travel and so on. DLR Properties Limited was the same. Almost no councillor is in it for the money because there is none. We are asking people to do a full-time job for what effectively is less than the minimum wage, given the number of hours councillors work per week and the time they spend at various functions, turning up at events, attending school prize nights, raffles and residents meetings and lobbying on behalf of constituents. The Minister of State is probably distracted, but I am making these points to him as much as to anyone else.

Councillors are the first port of call. One councillor told me that someone had rang him on Christmas Day because his cable television service was not working. He had to ring someone else. When he asked the person why he had not rang his sister, he said he would have had to pay. I was about to say “we” because I was a councillor for so long, but councillors become the first port of call. They work hard. If Dublin City Council had a ratio of 1:4,730 or whatever the figure was in the previous reform process, it would have 119 councillors, not 63. Fingal County Council would have 65 or 66; Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council would have 44 or 45, while South Dublin County Council would have 51 or 52. Councillors on Dublin City Council might not cover enormous distances, but they have many constituents who, possibly because they have better broadband, are, by and large, able to send queries more quickly and who equally expect an immediate response. 475 Seanad Éireann When one is a councillor, everything one does is on one’s own back. There is no secretarial or administrative support. Unless one is a wealthy person who is willing to pay for support out of his or her own resources, there is nothing available, save for the general support available within a local authority. I acknowledge that, by and large, local authority staff are helpful. Someone receives a representational payment of less than €17,000 per year to be a member of a local authority. For a long time and until recently, councillors were paying a 4% super tax called PRSI class K for nothing, as well as USC and normal taxes. We are taxing them as if they are employees.

I am unsure whether any other Senator has mentioned it, but I do not understand why councillors are the only ones in the entire public service who are not entitled to a pension. It would not be a large pension, given that it would be based on a small salary. A part-time worker in a local authority who works ten hours per week will receive a pension if he or she is there for long enough. It will be a small pension based on a small salary and a limited number of hours, but that person is entitled to something. We have councillors on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council with 29, 36 or 40 years of service. Many of them have 29 years of service. They put in a large amount of time, practically their whole lives. Many people would not work in any job for that length of time. At the end of it all, there is only a lump sum payment of a gratuity, with nothing for the long term.

Like Senators Victor Boyhan, Jennnifer Murnane O’Connor and so on, I attended the LAMA and AILG conferences. In Dungarvan and Donegal I listened to the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, outline the future. I welcome the establishment of a review group, but we must acknowledge that councillors are probably annoyed with certain Members of this House endlessly sending them emails promising them the sun, moon and stars when none of it materialises. There are those of us who have not been sending such emails because we are unsure of what is coming. I hope it is positive, but whatever it is, it needs to be articu- lated and decided soon. the local elections will be held just over a year from now. I believe 23 May 2019 is the date on which they will be held.

I do not want to repeat a lot of the points that have been made but on the issue of vouched versus unvouched expenses, a lot of the expenses that councillors incur include things like buy- ing raffle tickets or giving prizes for raffles, none of which is vouchable. I am not saying that it can be vouchable but we need to appreciate what an unvouched allowance means and that expenses are expenses. They are incurred because a councillor has incurred them. He or she has telephone and stationery bills, petrol costs, tyre replacement costs, vehicle expenses and so forth. All of these are expenses. No one says of people who happen to work in an office that they got their salary as well as the value of the desk at which they sit, the roof over their heads and the central heating. Apparently, if a person happens to use a room in his or her house as a full-time office, that person cannot claim any allowance for that, even though he or she is deprived of that room. If that person buys a filing cabinet or a desk, there is no allowance for that either.

We need good quality people. We need people to be in local government and not because they are independently wealthy. We want people to be representative of where they live. I strongly urge the Minister of State to consider what Senator Boyhan has referred to as a decent salary, but whatever is delivered should be enough for people to live on so that they are not travelling around the place in the hope of getting some expenses because that is the only way they can sustain their existence. Many councillors are effectively working full-time and are working very hard. We must recognise and appreciate the work they do and reward them appropriately. 476 24 April 2018

24/04/2018KK00200Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy John Paul Phelan): I thank the Senators who contributed to this debate. I will try to reference as many of the contributions as possible. The range of views that have been expressed in the House this evening and during the previous discussion on this issue demonstrate to me and to Members of this House the importance of councillor supports and local government functions. I fully appreciate the dedication shown by individual councillors and the hard work that they put in as representatives of their communities. As a former councillor myself, I have an understanding of the challenges they face in carrying out their duties.

While not losing sight of the long-standing tradition of public service, a financial support framework has been put in place to support councillors in carrying out their important work. Following the implementation of local government reforms in 2014, councillors now represent larger electoral areas than previously and are responsible for a broader range of reserved functions. At the same time, overall numbers have been reduced. I have met my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and I am delighted to inform the House that significant progress has been made since we had our previous discussion four or five weeks ago. An agreement has been reached to set up a councillor remuneration review group, chaired by an independent person with an official from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and an official from local government, that will consult councillor groups and other concerned parties. It will commence its work in May and finish by Hallowe’en, a six-month period. The job of the review group is not just about creating a link with the public service. It is also about some of the issues that Senators have raised about scoping the role of a councillor in 2018, a job that has probably never been done at any stage. The group will have six months to do that and to establish a link with the public service.

Some of the contributions today and on the previous day were a bit unusual, to say the very least. I am lucky in that I tend to keep notes of what people say, and five weeks ago Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill expressed the view that councillors in London get £90,000 and that something similar should apply here. I welcome the fact that Senators Horkan and Boyhan have at least suggested a figure that is much more realistic in terms of how much councillors should be paid. On the previous day, a salary of $90,000 in Canada was also given as an example, but it is very unfair of Members of this House to create expectations that cannot be realised. I value the work of councillors and that is where I started myself, politically. None of the speakers here referenced the work that the Department did a little more than a year ago which surveyed councillors on the amount of time they put into the job every week. The average was 26 hours per week, meaning that half of councillors put in less than that time, with the other half putting in more. Notwithstanding the fact that if councillors were paid more, they might be in a position to devote more time to politics, we all know as practitioners that politics is one of those professions that will take up as much time as one can or will devote to it.

On the previous day Senator O’Reilly spoke about councillors being the cornerstone of our democracy, a point echoed by Senator Dolan today. I very much agree with that point. Sena- tor Black made a very pertinent point the last day about the need for a genuine discussion on the role of a councillor. This is something that the Taoiseach has spoken to me about and it will be included in the terms of reference of the review group to be established in May. Sena- tors Craughwell and Boyhan spoke about the need for no more promises. I have not made any promises other than that the review group will be established. I am finally in a position to give a timeframe for that. I certainly agree that the time for soft talk is over but most of the soft talk has emanated from Members of this House rather than from Government on the issue of

477 Seanad Éireann councillor remuneration. I am determined that when this review is completed, it will be implemented.

Senators Conway-Walsh and Horkan spoke about the need for home offices to be included in the expenses regime, but they are already included in the €5,000 vouched allowance. We need to talk in the real world to both councillors and the public. The defence by Members of this House of unvouched expenses is not just politically unacceptable, it is downright wrong. There will never be unvouched expenses in the future. They do not exist in these Houses any- more and the public has no appetite for unvouched expenses. That means that the system of vouching has to reflect the real expenses that politicians incur and the real costs that they bear. The public deserves that, as do the councillors. I can remember when unvouched expenses were abolished for Oireachtas Members and there was a lot of whingeing by Members at the time. As someone who was audited in the past two years before I became a Minister of State, I can say that it is a hell of an experience but the criteria that applies to Oireachtas Members is now available to councillors. If councillors incur expenses above €2,500, then it is a no-brainer that they would go on the vouched expenses system. The fact that only 3% have opted for that would seem to indicate that many are not incurring such expenses. I hope I am wrong, and perhaps as the new system beds in, many more councillors will opt for it because they will realise that they have other expenses that they have not thought about that will be allowable. I regret to inform the Acting Chairman, Senator Horkan, that raffle tickets will never be an allowable expense for any public representative. There are many things to which public representatives, both local and national, contribute, including when we advertise our availability. Those advertisements are an expression of the openness and availability of public representatives and are allowable expenses, which is only right.

Senator Paddy Burke spoke on the previous day about the need for backdating. While acknowledging some very alarmed looking officials behind me, I would just say that once an adjudication has been made, regardless of whether there is a delay, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will have the ultimate say. Any payment should be dated from when the decision is made. That is only fair and proper. I note with interest the letter to which Sena- tor Boyhan referred during his contribution. There is a touch of the Mario Draghi about the response from the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I refer here to Mr. Draghi’s famous intervention when he said “noted” the Irish Central Bank’s action. The letter is worth reading and rereading. It states that the issue raised regarding remuneration of city and county councillors is a matter for the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, to consider in the first instance. That was a clarifica- tion that the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government must engage in the work of scoping out the role of a councillor and establishing the basis on which there would be a link with the public service. It then goes to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for approval or otherwise in the sense that it is the group responsible when it comes to expenditure of public moneys. I believe the letter was very useful, even though from the way it is written it appears almost deliberately not to be useful.

24/04/2018LL00200Senator Victor Boyhan: I was delighted to assist the Minister of State with it. I gave it to him.

24/04/2018LL00300Deputy John Paul Phelan: On the previous day Senator Ó Ríordáin spoke at length about the huge number of retirements from councils he served on between 2004 and 2011. He is right. All of us would have experience of people who left. Sometimes people leave because they just want to get out of local government, whether for family or employment reasons or whatever. In more recent times, however, people who may have had a different view of local government 478 24 April 2018 before they were elected discovered that it is a very time-consuming job and that it is not suitable for them. That is why it is remuneration levels in its entirety, and I am talking about any communications Senators make with councillors. It is not just about the pay but also about the current expenses system. Councillors do not have any supports for secretarial assistance, as Senator Buttimer mentioned, or research. All those issues must be in the pot, so to speak, in addition to a service councillors do not have but that is available to Deputies. The distinguished Members of the Upper House do not have it because they do not have constituencies. I refer to an allowance-----

24/04/2018LL00400Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): It is just the whole of Ireland.

24/04/2018LL00500Deputy John Paul Phelan: -----for travel within their Dáil constituency. For councillors who have vast electoral areas, some provision to acknowledge those costs must be considered by this group.

On the previous day Senator Mark Daly raised the issue of the Revenue Commissioners. Other Senators have spoken about the public sector travel rates that apply to councillors. A recent adjudication by the Revenue Commissioners, which was circulated to Senators, stated that any rates of travel paid above the public service rate are liable to tax. The best way of delivering an appropriate system for local representatives is to try to ensure they get the range of services that are available to national politicians. However, we do not want to arrive at a situation where mileage expenses are taxed because they are deemed to be above the necessary rate for such mileage.

On the previous day Senator Ó Domhnaill spoke about the £90,000 for councillors in Lon- don. I admire his bottle but I suspect the figure would not be anywhere in that region.

Senator Dolan spoke about the critical position of councillors and said that the next group the cynics would come after would be Members of the Oireachtas. I think the cynics have been there and gone, but they might come back again.

24/04/2018LL00600Senator John Dolan: I do not think they are gone, but anyway. It is not to be encouraged.

24/04/2018LL00700Deputy John Paul Phelan: They are never too far away. Does the Government want proper local government? Absolutely. The current system in its entirety in terms of the supports for councillors is insufficient and is the reason we need to examine the role of a councillor and remunerate accordingly.

What has to be taken from the work done by the Department on surveying the amount of time councillors put into the job is that a councillor is not a full-time position. Some people who are on groups or bodies in other organisations are able to make it a full-time position. We all know that, in terms of time and effort, being a councillor is more than a full-time position, although I was interested in Senator Boyhan’s story about somebody who rang a councillor on Christmas Day about their cable TV.

24/04/2018LL00800Senator Victor Boyhan: It was Senator Horkan.

24/04/2018LL00900Deputy John Paul Phelan: I do not think we will ever be able to deal with such claims. I got a call once on Christmas Day about water, but that was a legitimate council related matter.

24/04/2018LL01000Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I was making the point that one becomes the first point of call for everything and anything. 479 Seanad Éireann

24/04/2018LL01100Deputy John Paul Phelan: Sorry, I missed that. That is fair enough.

24/04/2018LL01200Senator Diarmuid Wilson: When was the phone call made about the water? Was Phil Hogan the Minister at the time?

24/04/2018LL01300Deputy John Paul Phelan: No. It was about 2000. My father answered the phone and I will not say what he said to the constituent who, I hasten to add, was his cousin.

Senator Murnane O’Connor is right, and others have expressed the same view. Councillors want to help make their communities better. It is what motivates all of us, at least at the start of our careers in politics. When I stood for the council there had not been a councillor in my area for 35 years. I was probably elected because everybody voted to elect somebody locally.

On the need for additional powers for councillors, this is a contentious issue. My officials and I had a meeting with some of the councillors’ representative groups a number of months ago at which that request was made. The representative groups could not respond with any additional powers they thought should be given to councillors. That was shocking.

24/04/2018LL01400Senator Victor Boyhan: Will the Minister of State repeat that? I could not hear him.

24/04/2018LL01500Deputy John Paul Phelan: The representative groups could not outline additional powers that should be given to councillors in the presence of the Minister and his officials, which is a shocking indictment of-----

24/04/2018LL01600Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: There are lots-----

24/04/2018LL01700Deputy John Paul Phelan: Absolutely. Extra reserve functions were given under the reforms brought in on the previous occasion and there are certainly other areas that should be given additional powers. As part of the review of the boundary areas, which will be published in June, there is also the knock-on, which will have to be a decision of Government in terms of giving funding directly to municipal districts or to town districts rather than going centrally. I am very much in favour of that. I refer to the Carlow town situation where the town council got a block grant on roads, footpaths and so on.

24/04/2018LL01800Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: That is right.

24/04/2018LL01900Deputy John Paul Phelan: That is gone.

24/04/2018LL02000Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: We no longer have that.

24/04/2018LL02100Deputy John Paul Phelan: It is to give back that sense of autonomy. I believe the previous local government reforms went very far in that the size of the areas created were too big. We changed those in the terms of reference under which the review group is operating. I fundamen- tally believe, and I said it previously here, that the decision to ensure one person, one vote in a local election, whether one lives in Carlow town or in the countryside, is the right approach. Some people got two votes. Others got one. That was unfair. It is how we marry the urban governance with the county council. That piece is being refined at present.

Senator Murnane O’Connor said she firmly believes that I am not listening to councillors. I listen to councillors every day of the week but I do not have a magic wand.

24/04/2018LL02200Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: I know.

480 24 April 2018

24/04/2018LL02300Deputy John Paul Phelan: It was to try to get this process under way.

24/04/2018LL02400Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: We are counting on the Minister of State.

24/04/2018LL02500Deputy John Paul Phelan: Senator Boyhan said I met Fine Gael councillors in a private meeting in Dungarvan. They were very happy that day.

24/04/2018LL02600Senator Victor Boyhan: Sorry, but to correct the Minister of State, I said the Minister, but that is to be encouraged.

24/04/2018LL02700Deputy John Paul Phelan: Okay. I think they will be quite happy that the process is now taking shape. Senator Wilson gave out about the €1,000 being taxable. The intention was always that it would be taxable. It was always the position of the Department that it was likely to be taxable but we were waiting on an adjudication by the Revenue Commissioners. He gave out about the €5,000 vouched expenses. It is a false hope to be giving councillors that we will have unvouched political expenses in the future. That day is done. It is about how we make the vouched system more usable and applicable to their costs. We have to stop talking about going back to unvouched expenses because it will never happen. I referred to the public sector mileage rates in my comments.

Senator Horkan said he does not understand the reason councillors are the only group in the public service that are not entitled to a pension. I agree fully. That is one of the reasons behind bringing in this independently chaired review. Councillors are not in the public service. Even some Members of this-----

24/04/2018LL02800Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): They are taxed as such.

24/04/2018LL02900Deputy John Paul Phelan: Yes. There are some Members of this House who said that we should stick with the link between Senators and councillors. Absolutely not. If councillors are to get the PRSI entitlements to get the pension entitlements, this link between councillors and a grade in the public service is the crucial step in getting the other ancillary benefits for councillors, as well as the pay issue.

This is about much more than pay. It is about recognition and about saying that, as a councillor, one is a public servant. Some have been councillors for 40 years and the Senator listed a few, I could name a few myself who are there a long time, and there must be 6 o’clock a pension at the end of it for them. It will mean, probably in the initial years at least, that there will be a hybrid system. I suspect that we will not be able to do retrospective pensions for everyone, but there should be a combination of the current lump sum with other intricacies, which are to be worked out by this review group.

I want to finish by saying that I have never given any promises on the subject, other than that I think there should be a link between councillors and the public service directly, not just through Members of this House. A review should happen. I am glad to say we are going to have the review and it will be from May to October 2018 with a view towards as immediate an implementation as we can possibly have. I suspect that other letters might have to be drafted about that in the future, but we need to get the first stage of the process completed, which is to scope out the role of councillors, what they should be doing in the future and paying them a proper, full remuneration package that is commensurate with the work they do and the role they have.

481 Seanad Éireann

24/04/2018MM00200Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan): I thank the Minister of State for his reply and I thank all the Senators for contributing to the debate. When is it proposed to sit again?

24/04/2018MM00300Senator Ray Butler: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow morning.

The Seanad adjourned at 6.02 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 April 2018.

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