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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TABLE OF CONTENTS ITEM TRANSCRIPT

ENGLISH TRANSLATION 2 CITATION & RIGHTS 12

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TRANSCRIPT ENGLISH TRANSLATION — Today is June 28, 2009. We are in Lvov [Lviv], meeting with a veteran of the Great Patriotic War. Please, introduce yourself; your name, patronymic, surname. Where and when were you born? Describe your prewar life. How did you end up in the army? How did you experience the war? Please.

My name is Brandler, Chaim Samsonovich. I was born in the town Mostyska on April 20, 1921.

—What is the name of the city?

Mostyska.

—Mostyska?

Yes. In Russian, Mostyska. My initial studies took place in a cheder, from three or four years old, I do not recall exactly. I studied for ten years. Then at the age of seven, I began to study at a Polish school, a lower secondary school. After school, I needed to acquire a profession. I studied with a tinsmith, and began to work a little. The Polish-German war began on September 1, 1939. I was not old enough for the army but decided not to stay in German occupied territory.

Here is how the war began for me. On the eve of September 1, a radio-loudspeaker was installed on the premises of the Zionist organization. This was a novelty for Mostyska—a loudspeaker. I heard Hitler’s "reasoned out" speech, which demanded territorial concessions from the Polish government. The next day, the Polish minister of foreign affairs, Josef Beck, replied to this speech, saying that we needed to reach an agreement and so on . . . The war began with a that metal thing that emitted sounds [air raid alarm]. The sounds were [to let people know] that an air raid was expected. Short-duration ones meant the end of the air raid. During the first days of the war, my mother sent me to get milk. Near . . . how do you say it in Russian . . . the building for cows. There was a dog nearby. The dog knew me; I would pet it. Suddenly, for no reason, it began to howl—howl like mad. She looked at me with innocent eyes, as though asking for forgiveness for her howling. And on this day the station at Mostyska was bombed. I remember this howl, perhaps it was a prediction that there would be victims . . . that six million Jews . . . and in general . . . She looked at me with such innocent eyes. My mother and sister decided to send me away because the Germans were approaching. And indeed, they soon occupied [the town].

I went with the guys in the direction of Lvov. My uncle and aunt were living in Lvov. The next day we continued further. Beyond Lvov there was a chalutz, where Jewish youth learned physical labor in order to

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN go to Israel.

—Chalutzim—pioneers.

Yes. This was, presumably, the property of some German, but they treated us with their products, that is milk and bread. The next day we were able to sit on the side of a car and hold on. We were checked along the way and we learned that this car belong to Polish radio. They were checking them and along with them they checked us as well. They did not mind us going with them. We reached, approximately, the road between Zolochev and Brody. They were going toward Romania, but we decided not to go there and went towards Brody. A cart with a box carrying bread caught up with us on the way. Sitting on this box, we reached the former Polish border and stopped there. We were fed a little while [traveling] on this cart. We needed to register but there was such a long line that I was unable to register with the Polish authorities.

On September 17, at dawn, we heard machine-gun fire. It turned out that the Red Army had crossed the border. We spent the night in a prayer house. When we left the prayer house, we saw these new uniforms; we did not know about them. Troops marched past almost the entire day. We observed that there was a small garrison there. I do not know what they were doing there. Perhaps it was a garrison of border guards. The Red Army took them prisoner. We watched. Then a Red Army clerk began registering all the refugees. They were mostly Jews, a few Poles. Melameds made up the lion’s share of refugees. I think you know what a melamed is.

—A teacher.

A teacher of religion. A few days later, I decided to return home. After some time we were loaded into Red Army cars, they fed us. I remember we reached Radzivillov [Radyvyliv] . . .

—Where?

Radzivillov, there is such a place in Rovne [Rivne] Oblast. Well, it was Yom Kippur: Judgment Day. I went into a prayer house. I thought they would let me spend the night. Of course, they allowed me to spend the night. Of course, they did not give me anything to eat on Judgment Day. I spent the night and they asked me in the morning what it would be like for them, those who are rich? They were rich. Well, I tried to calm them down . . . What could I say? I knew just as much as they did. I reached Krasnoe [Krasne]; it's close to Lvov. One thing surprised me: there was a man walking with a red armband and a carbine. Looked like a policemen. An old woman came up—perhaps his mother or someone else—and called to him. After a few minutes, he comes out without the armband and without the carbine.

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

I reached Lvov. At that point, I was almost in Mostyska. Nine kilometers before Mostyska there is a village, Tvirzha. We were detained there, held all night, because some part of Poland was being destroyed. I only managed to get home in the morning. As it turned out, the Germans occupied Peremyshl [Przemyśl], Mostyska, Sudova Vishnya [Sudova Vyshnya]. I do not remember whether they took Gorodok [Horodok]. They are all close to Lvov. They were unable to take Lvov itself. The Germans gathered all the Jewish males and forced them to clean the streets. This physical labor did not hurt anyone. But they mistreated them. One Jew was even killed in Sudova Vishnya. So I believe evacuating was the right thing to do. To finish this story, I can say this: part of Peremyshl along the San River belonged to the Soviet Union at the time and for some reason either in the spring or fall, I do not remember exactly, I traveled to Peremyshl for some reason. When I was going back in order to return to Mostyska by train, I looked across the San River bridge, the San is a rather wide river, and the bridge is about half a kilometer, maybe more. Some people appeared [on the bridge]. When they reached the middle of the bridge, from the middle of the column they pulled out . . . with a hammer and sickle . . . they blocked the entire bridge, they did not allow these people to join our side. Those people were probably Jews coming from either Germany or rather from Poland trying to cross to the Soviet Union. These are my memories from this period of the war.

Now, here is how the second war began for me, on June 22. We managed to enroll in tractor drivers’ courses. I decided to learn a new trade because there was no work. Since I studied well and graduated with honors, they kept me there as an instructor of tractor operation—practical studies. On June 22, the instructor of the district party committee, or commissioner, arrived at this mechanization school and announced that war had begun. I decided to go defend the Motherland, as they say. I called the military recruitment office . . . ”No, under no circumstances.” I called in another few days—no. One day the postman—there was a post office—replied to me, in a mocking "Jewish" tone—no, no . . . and so on. I realized that there was no point in staying there. My mother and sister were in Sudova Vishnya, it’s 45 kilometers from here. I decided to go to them and then we'd get out of there together. Along the way, I ran into a woman who asked me, in Ukrainian, where I was going. I said, to Sudova Vishnya. “Do not go there, there are troops.” I realized that the Germans had already occupied Sudova Vishnya. Along the bank of the Dniester River, I reached Khodorov [Khodoriv], where I got on a train, finding myself in a train car that contained evacuated policemen. Candy and cookies served as rations the entire way. Try to eat candy and cookies everyday . . . you would not want to.

Thus, we eventually reached the former border. There were many trains gathered there. Two trains away, there was a table standing on the railway platform and people were sitting there—Jews. They were drinking tea. Suddenly an air raid [began]. The command “on the ground” was issued. After the raid, I looked . . . neither the platform nor the table were there any longer. I assume a bomb had landed there. Our train was sent east. We drove 3 kilometers and stopped: there were other trains ahead. Suddenly another raid commenced. We lay down on a riverbank. The bombs fell right next to the train. I saw one Red Army

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN soldier get thrown about 10 meters up. After the raid, I went to that spot. He had been holding a rifle in his hand, and the barrel and bolt, everything, flew away, only a piece of it [was left because] he'd been holding it so firmly that you could not even . . . He was hit so hard [on the head] . . . just flattened his head. I looked at his documents—he was Kazakh. I saw that there was no reason to linger; I began to move from one train to another. I reached Vinnitsa [Vinnytsia] Oblast. There was a town there . . . I'd have to think about the name . . . They learned that I was a tractor driver, so I was left there to prepare the ground for an airfield. I operated a tractor called Universal, using the harrows to . . . I worked on the soil to make the area flat.

I was not finished, they said there was no reason to continue. Then the town of Monastyrishche [Monastyryshche]. I went to Monastyrishche and saw that there was nothing to do there either. I managed to get into a car and got to Kirovograd [Kirovohrad] Oblast. There is a town called Bobrenets [Bobrynets'] there. This was on July 31, 1941. I went to the military recruitment office and said, "Take me into the army." I did not know then that they did not take natives of Western Ukraine into the army. But I was accepted, I was enlisted into the 422nd Construction Battalion. Here is what we did. We traveled to Petrovka—this was a district center—and they set us up to dig anti-tank ditches. The top section is approximately 7 meters wide and 3 meters deep. One part is straight and then it slants, to a depth of 3 meters. The idea is that if the tank falls into it, it will get stuck. Well . . . the tanks went around. In the evening “Rama” [Frame] planes flew in. This was a German reconnaissance aircraft. We had to drop the shovels and move on. We reached Zaporozhye [Zaporizhia], where we crossed the hydroelectric power station. In Zaporozhye Oblast, we began to dig anti-tank ditches again. [The cities] Orekhovo and Vasilkovo, it was around there. But they were unlikely to go into the anti-tank ditches. The Germans probably bypassed them. Then, we moved toward Melitopol, toward Mariupol. This is also part of the Zaporozhye Oblast. And in the end, we reached Rostov-on-Don. We crossed the Don River on a pontoon bridge . . .

—This is all in ’41 or ’42?

This is still ’41. We crossed the Don River on the pontoon bridge, and across the Don, outside Rostov, we began to set up a fortified district. In the winter of ’41-’42 outside Rostov, the temperature was minus 42 degrees. We pounded the earth with crowbars. In order to reach the soft earth, we had to break through about a meter of earth with the crowbar. I do not know who was successful, but I couldn't break through. We made not only anti-tank ditches, but also communication routes. In a word, we set up a fortified district. This was already after the first time Rostov-on-Don was liberated.

After Rostov-on-Don, the war led me to Saratov, or rather, to Saratov Oblast, the military center of Tatishchevo. From there I was sent to the forest. I do not think this is worth mentioning. With respect to working in the forest, I can say that we were sent with horses to an island on the Lower Volga to bring trees

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN from the island for heating. I did not stay there long either. In ’42, I was in Kemerovo Oblast and worked in the mines until ’44. I can only recall how one day there was a mine collapse. We came to work, timbermen . . . We were with a miner . . . The timberman said: “I’m worried; it sounds like something is cracking.” And in fact, after a half an hour or so, he approached us: “Collapse.” The entrance collapsed. Well, it was a good thing there was a slope shaft. We were 240 meters underground, and 140 meters under the ground they were doing longwall mining. We went through this shaft for 100 meters and managed to get to the surface. We were lucky. Later there was an accident at the mine, more than 100 people died.

In ’44, I somehow learned that Westerners were being allowed [to join the fighting at] the front. I had a block in place: if I showed my documents, they did not have the right to take me into the army. I went to the market and noticed they were conducting a raid: if you did not have papers on you, you were enlisted in the army. I showed them my papers and they told me to go. What was I to do? I went back to the market without my papers. "Where are your papers?" "I left them at home." "Let’s go." That is how I was enlisted in the army. They continued trying to send [me] to the mines. But I wanted [to go to the front]. I was ashamed of looking people in the eyes: some of my neighbors were already coming back wounded. Finally I got my way. They sent me [to the front]. I ended up on the 2nd Ukrainian Front, 40th Army, 240th Division, 836th Regiment, 3rd Battalion.

It took us forty days to reach the front by train from Omsk. First, we arrived in the reserve regiment, then the 836th Regiment. We were walking on foot at night. You are walking and falling asleep—and suddenly you walk into your neighbor’s rifle. We walked the entire night to get to the front line. We arrived at the front line. We were ordered to have our rifles at the ready and go forward. This was outside of Banska Bystrica. We had to take Banska Bystrica. The next day our company was ordered to take a height. The company commander was Lieutenant Maksimov. He had moved up the ranks from private to lieutenant. He ordered us to that height through an almost vertical wall. We reached the top over this vertical wall. He placed us in an all-around defense, where we had to wait until the rest of the units arrived. Scouts left and returned and the next morning we advanced. The rest of the regiment rejoined and we reached a village.

For this feat, for defending our positions during the night, we were allowed a period of rest. We spent the night in a school, a village school. The number one [gunner] of the machine gun crew was a resident of Verba, a village in the Rovno Oblast. I was the number two. We spent the night in this school, and the next day we had to take up positions that were occupied by a machine gun company. We reached these positions. Our machine gun was the handheld Degtyarev. There were also Maxim machine guns. Something was wrong with one machine gun. Maksimov—the company commander—needed to get up on his knees and he was sticking out . . .

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

—His head was sticking out of the trench.

This was all the Germans needed: he sent a mortar round there, and it immediately killed the company commander and several others were wounded. A mortar’s fragments fly almost horizontally. It seemed to me that it few in my direction but I was not wounded. God spared me.

Either the next day or several days later, we fell under a hurricane of mortar fire from the so-called “Vanyusha.” These were six-barreled German mortars. It was horrible when it whistled. Our battalion moved us out 2 kilometers, forcing us to dig fortifications—trenches. These were the Low Tatras. You could only dig 5-7 centimeters and then it was stone. We dug and finished and immediately got the command “forward.” The first gunner was also wounded. I had my own rifle, 200 pieces of ammunition, and the machine gun. I was now the gunner. Either way, we moved on. After a night, we took up positions and could not advance further because of fire. They fired at us . . . those who fire precisely . . . I forget . . .

— Snipers.

Snipers were firing. They gave me a number two gunner instead of . . . And he was a fine shooter. For some reason, he had to get out of the trench and fire on the sniper. He managed to get off several shots. And all of a sudden I look: bang . . . We did not have helmets, only a fur-hat for protection.

— I did not understand, who was firing on the sniper?

My number two gunner.

—A light machine gun?

No, he just fired from his rifle, and then he was hit in the head—he wheezed and that was all. Our advance continued. They gave me another number two gunner and the battle for Banska Bystrica ended. This is a regional center in Slovakia now. Then, it was Czechoslovakia.

—This was already 1945?

This was already '45 year. I received the order to fire. There was a valley and at the end of the valley there were, what seemed like, barracks. I will tell you later what they were. After the number two gunner was killed, I had to fire on that structure in order to provide cover for the entire company. The company went ahead and I remained behind, about a kilometer or two [separated us]. I kept firing the entire time. Estimating that the company had already reached the structure, I then went as well. As it turned out, there

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN was a brick building, fenced with barbed wire. I think the Germans probably took prisoners there. I reported to the company commander that I had arrived. He gave me an assignment: there is a sniper there, try to [get] him . . . I crawled out to the height with the company. I looked around, approximately to where the fire was coming from, I got my bearings, where the sniper was, and fired a burst from my machine gun. There was no more sniper fire on this day. After my machine gun burst, I was lying there and 5 centimeters from me—machine gun fire. I crawled away—machine gun fire. I crawled further . . . I crawled behind a pine tree and only then did it stop. I was so tired that I fell asleep behind this pine tree.After I woke up, I crawled to the company commander. He gave me a second gunner. We were there until evening and then a Romanian unit replaced us.

—Which went over to the side of the Red Army?

They'd gone over long before. What's interesting, the commander of the Romanian unit approached me to ask about the situation rather than the company commander. I showed him our approximate positions as well as those of the Germans. The company commander approached asking what I had told him. I forgot to say that in our 422nd Construction Battalion there were many Moldavians [Moldovans], and I'd learned Moldavian from them. Moldavian is similar to Romanian. I explained to this Romanian company commander in Romanian. Our company commander asked how I was able to tell him. I suppose he was satisfied because he did not say anything to me. We went to rest. When we met the Germans in battle, we were a company of approximately fifty—only twelve went for rest.

—Even fifty is low for a company.

At the time, that was a company. Platoon commander and company commander. We rested. There is a village there, Gainovka . . . After a week there was an alarm and we crossed a river, having to take Krimnitsa [Kremnica]. Along the way, we were under attack by shrapnel fire. This was in some village; we hid under a roof. Then the fire stopped. The company commander gave the following order: at night, we would quietly capture the Germans. They would not be expecting us. But it was not to be. We went, reached the German positions, but they were expecting us and the first bullet struck me like a hammer. I walked to a village about 2 kilometers away, with my hand like this. There was an artillery battery there. I reached the battery. He asked: “What, is this your first wound?” I said yes, the first. "Maybe you have a first aid kit?" He went inside his quarters, came out with an aid kit, tied it up somehow and tied it around my neck saying: “There is a sanitary platoon 3 kilometers from here.” I walked and [eventually] saw a horse—a horse grazing and a soldier nearby. I asked: “Are you the sanitary platoon?” “Yes, but I cannot help you. Go down the road, there are carts and cars there.” I walked another 2 kilometers . . . I came down the road, I looked [and saw] someone. I got on a cart—some guy from the Ternopol [Ternopil] Oblast with his horses. I sat on the cart. “I am carrying a sapper in the back.” [I couldn't tell if he was] dead or alive. We drove another 2 or 3

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Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN kilometers. I was bandaged there the first time. A lorry drove up. They took me with this sapper to the medical-sanitary battalion. They bandaged me once more there. I do not remember whether they operated on me in the hospital for lightly wounded . . . yes in the hospital for lightly wounded. In that same Gainovka. I wasn't there for long, the next day we were transported out, and then I was underwent serious treatment.

In Slovakia they planned to hold a May Day celebration, but we were taken to Mishkolets [Miskolc] before May 1.

— Is Mishkolets in Romania or Hungary?

Hungary. We learned about peace on May 8 from the Magyars. When listening to our broadcast—in the afternooon Levitan said: “There will be an important broadcast.” Everyone came closer. “There will be an important broadcast.” Then the broadcast: “Our troops occupied the city . . . Wroclaw . . . Breslau!” Everyone was taken aback. The war continues? Only at night did I hear Stalin’s short announcement that peace was concluded, that Germany surrendered unconditionally. I think that is enough.

— What happened to your family—your parents?

We had a big family. First of all, my mother was my father’s second wife. He had three children with the first wife: Nathan, who emigrated to the United States at the beginning of the twentieth century; Miriam, who lived in Sambor, which is close; Ephraim, born in 1905, who served in the Polish Army . . . Berling’s [1st Polish] Army. He later wrote letters, I gave them to my sister. With my mother . . .

—He wrote letters; he was in what army?

In the Polish Army. I was in the Red Army, and he was in the Polish Army. I had a sister. My father died in ’34, my mother did not wait for my sister, she left with Soviet officials. After the war, my sister recognized our mother's shawl; one of them was wearing it.

—So your mother died?

She must have. And we do not know where. My sister was evacuated to Tyumen Oblast; she worked on a state farm there. After the war she was summoned back to Sudova Vishnya. When I was demobilized, I decided to go to Mostyska, to find out what was there. I arrived in Mostyska and I saw a square. Large stones. I looked and it turned out these were matseyve, Jewish tombstones. They forced the Jews to put them down. Of course, the Jews from Mostyska had been killed. My sister was summoned to Sudova

Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Vishnya because she was a member of the district rada, she was an underground member of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine. I did not want to be in the Communist Party. After the war, she arranged for me to take courses in finance. I worked all the time as a senior state revenue inspector, a sort of tax chief.

—Were you a regular soldier or a sergeant in the army?

A soldier. They wanted to send me to officers' school . . .

—You were with a light machine gun, a soldier, and next were there soldiers from different parts of the Soviet Union, from different regions, next to you? Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Tatars?

There were Tatars as well, and there were Russians and Ukrainians. The battalion commander was a Jew. His deputy was also a Jew.

—Were there any problems related to the fact that there were various ethnicities fighting next to each other?

No, no. We got along. The sergeant major of the company was a Jew.

—You were on the territory of Ukraine and Romania. Which [other] territories did you pass through?

Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia.

—Did you meet any Jews who survived the occupation?

After the war, after I healed, we were sent to Budapest for uniforms for the demobilization. Well, I thought I would go to the synagogue. I entered. It was Saturday and they were praying. A Jewish guy came in and asked the rabbi to pray for those who'd been killed. I spoke to them in Yiddish. They understood me well. I only remember that he tore a piece of his suit as a sign of mourning.

—This was after the war?

This was already after the war, but during the war, I encountered some on the road to Galati. We were staying in Galati. There I met Jews.

—There remained Jews in Romania . . .

Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

There were Jews in Romania, I talked with them in Galati. Even . . . either in a Romanian or a Hungarian unit I saw a Jew. I do not remember exactly.

—In the area of Hungary where there were many Romanians, there were Jews left, from what I understood?

No. Galati is Romania.

—During the war, did you know that Germans were killing all Jews?

Soviet newspapers reported on this.

—Thank you very much for meeting with us and for your patience—you were waiting a long time.

Chaim Brandler. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID UKR014.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4w37kx2v

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

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