I'm not sure where to post this but I was wondering about a few things/ideas that seem connected. I was reading through keoni29's post about the Atari 2600 cartridge reader he made and has mounted in his PC (optical drive bay) - http://atariage.com/...on-an-emulator/ and it got me thinking about the Retrode 2 - https://www.dragonbo...0416650091.html which is an external cart reader/USB adaptor for SNES/SFC and Genesis/Mega Drive cartridges (I believe) along with connections for other things like controllers. Unconnected to that there is a Vectrex32 - http://vectrex32.com/ which is a hardware cart that holds a 32-bit CPU and can be programmed using BASIC (the Vectrex is just there as a middleman for the controllers, display and sound) and the programs are uploaded to it through a USB cable. There is also a portable Atari 2600 - https://www.benheck....ble-hand-built/ that looks like it would be the size of a cartridge if you got rid of the lower hand controller part of it, which says that the PCB must be tiny (as I suppose any modern iteration of an '80s-era console would be today).

Ok, what I'm wondering is, how hard would it be to either -

1) design/build a cut-down Atari 2600 or Atari 5200 (or other retro machine) so that it's small enough to fit inside something like a CD drive case such that it could be mounted in a PC and connected via USB with a physical cartridge reader in the front (maybe also with dedicated 9-pin or whatever controller ports if there is room), or

2) design/build an external USB adapter device that has a physical cartridge slot (similar to the Retrode 2) so that gamers could plug in actual game cartridges and an emulator would read them through the USB port (the external reader could have dedicated controller connections or the emulator could read USB controllers).

The reason I ask is because part of (for me, anyway) the draw of collecting/playing retro gaming consoles is having the physical carts (and console). Emulators remove the console part of it but that could be replaced with a "real" (as in the same chips as the originals) console in a CD bay and, if that isn't an option, at least the physical cartridges could be plugged into an external cart reader along with plugging in legit controllers into 9-pin or 15-pin ports. I can't speak for others but I'm not enthused with having a bunch of ROM files on a flashcart or just in a subdirectory on my PC, I prefer having a physical cartridge (and manual and overlay and whatever else would be included back in the day). It's much better for collecting/trading and for displaying. Nobody is impressed with a printout of a subdirectory compared to a bookshelf full of boxed games. This would also address what to me is the only downside of the Vectrex32, which is that there is no way to plug a cartridge into it and I think it would be great to be able to buy/play Vectrex32 games off of physical carts with colored overlays. And an external cartridge reader for Vectrex type carts would fit the bill there. It's also a lot easier to sell physical carts and have them be unique and low-volume, especially if they include actual boxes and manuals and whatever else, compared to just a ROM file.

So, is this a dumb idea? I've seen people design and sell daughter PCBs for arcade games and even for consoles. I've also seen that Retrode 2, so it seems to me that there could be a market for at least the external cart readers (maybe one for Atari 2600/7800 and 5200 carts and another for Vectrex and then for Colecovision and the others) if not the CD drive bay consoles in order to bypass emulators (because nothing would beat playing the games on the correct hardware).

I think you need to understand how Google works. From the non-authoritative Wikipedia but it is a good approximation of what you pretend to, but clearly do not, understand -

"The hobby of collecting includes seeking, locating, acquiring, organizing, cataloging, displaying, storing, and maintaining whatever items are of interest to the individual collector."

Yes, that's coin collecting, classic car collecting, video game collecting, all of it. Displaying or showing off or however you want to describe it is part of the draw for most. Maybe not you, but it's very common, get used to it. But go ahead, act like you're an expert at something else.

A hobby can be about more than one thing, unlike your binary assessment. It can be about self-satisfaction and impressing others. Also, you didn't explain what you think self-satisfaction means, for some collectors that means feeling proud about the display. Whoops!

Ah, well, all of that makes sense. I was looking at it more from the point of view of encouraging more homebrew releases of physical cartridges, how could that be accomplished. I think the coolest thing would be a redesigned 2600 or 5200 in an optical drive bay but, not considering that, a physical cartridge reader would be little different than having an external SD/flash card reader (except for format). The other solution would be just that, releasing homebrews on some kind of tiny modern flash memory card but I was wondering how much more difficult it would be to have the external reader read old-school cartridges. I don't imagine that there would be a big market for such a thing, but maybe big enough to justify it? I mean, there's a market for Vectrex lightpens, I would think a more generalized cart reader would have just as big a market, if not bigger, though I assume such an external cart reader would cost more to make than a lightpen (or 3D goggles). I mean, I was as surprised as anybody when the iCade (which I think started out as a visual joke on Thinkgeek) became as popular as it did, it was nothing more than a shaped Bluetooth controller and iPad stand.

I was also looking at physical cart readers as being some crude level of illegal game copy prevention. I'm sure most competent gamers could clone a game onto a physical cart but that's something that many people wouldn't be in the mood to do (or have the minimal gear for) so it would prevent (or at least minimize) the copying and distributing of raw ROM files, whereas you only need to dump a ROM off a cart once and it can be copied forever.

Thanks for responding to the actual question, though I'm curious about what you think of having a whole/cut-down retro console mounted in a PC. My thinking for that is that it would slow down the modifying of original consoles with RCA plugs and other additions along with the reality that those things are old and will eventually die completely whereas a new-built console would have fresh parts (if they are available to build such a thing) and therefore last a while, while also again encouraging the use of physical carts. The new versions might also address any short-comings of the original designs in terms of chips and audio/video output, if there are options for those.

Yes, I did stew on that for a bit before writing. Stew on the difference between needing a physical cartridge vs. just a ROM file. I'm a fan of having actual (boxed) cartridges for my retro consoles and I was thinking of a way to encourage more homebrews to be released that way vs. just as ROM files with no physical form. I'm looking forward to the next round of homebrew carts from AtariAge, for example, I think I'll probably buy Ratcatcher for my 5200.

I mean, just go to the AtariAge Store page, tell me how many announcements for cleverly-packaged ROM files you see. Not the same thing, as much as you'd like to claim it is. There is a market for physical game releases but currently that's limited to only (mostly) those people who have the actual consoles to play them. My question was what if there was a way to increase that? Either by creating new versions of Atari 2600s, 5200s, etc. and mounting them in PCs (to take advantage of PC monitors and USB ports) or by creating external cartridge readers. But I have no idea how difficult or expensive that would be though I gave examples of things that already exist that are close, that don't seem to be so expensive such that they're not affordable to purchase or can't be built.

Now, I agree with you about developer intentions and how games are "meant" to be played. But displaying a collection is part of the draw for many collectors, all you need to do is walk through any CG facility to find the cubicles populated with (possibly) hundreds of action figures to realize that. None of those people collect JPGs of the action figures, right? And they don't cram the figures in boxes and store them in the garage, they are out where they can be seen, either at work or in a room at home. I've seen them, I've worked with those people. Again, not all collectors are like that, but many of them are. You can scan through AtariAge and find many posts from people presenting JPGs of their home collections of video games. Those are impressive, too, some truly rare shit and with their original packaging (lucky bastards), all nicely organized in bookshelves or custom display cases. Because, ya, they don't care about other people seeing their amassed crap. Right. The KLOV forums are filled with people showing off their home arcades with not just restored arcade games up against a wall but also themed rooms that look like '80s arcades (low light, neon signs, custom carpeting, posters). Because the display isn't important, sure, whatever you say.

I think that's a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. For example, back before smartphones, I needed a new cell phone after my old one died. So I went to the store to get a new one and none of the options came with a flash for the camera. Not a single normal flip-phone had a flash though one sports/water resistant phone did and I think some other one did, too. The salesman said that flashes weren't popular anymore, nobody wanted/needed them so nobody was making them. What? I told him that my current phone would produce little more than a grey mess in low-light/indoors at night situations. He agreed but so what, no options. So I bought the best of what I could find. About 6-9 months later, guess what, all the newest phones had flashes on them again. But I bet that people would point to a complete lack of flashes on cell phones as some sort of sign that nobody wanted them or the market wasn't big enough for them.

I can agree that the lack of availability of commercially-available external cart readers for PCs could mean that there's no big market for such a thing. It could also mean that we'll never know until a couple of them are made available to see if there is a big (or even just a viable) market for them. What was the market for the Atari Flashback before the first Flashbacks? I have no idea, but they're on version 7 now, right? I'll bet that, before the first Flashback showed up, there were lots of "experts" stating there was no market for such a thing and only idiots would think they should be manufactured.

Well, keepdreamin is probably right, if that's what he thinks, the number of people who would actually go all-out for displaying their collections is far less than those who simply collect (gamers, as Keatah says) but even the regular collectors I know (including myself) have their stuff organized in a visually-pleasing manner, if just on bookshelves, all organized by game manufacturer and system. And we welcome more examples of the same type of thing, my 5200 homebrew section is growing by the year, as is my Vectrex homebrew section. In their boxes, on shelves, where people can see them. Not the world, just those who I know who'd be interested in such a thing.

Ya, I'd pay for something like an external cart reader (and for a PC bay Atari 2600, come to that), I suppose others would, too. But of course it depends on how difficult it would be to get them made. But then I pay for boxed homebrew games, too, which is a subset of the whole market that includes people who will pay less for a ROM or only want them ROMs released for free, even though I know the boxed versions are the most expensive. I wonder how much that would change if external cart readers became available for PCs.

Since cheaper never entered into it I'm not sure why you brought it up. The end would not be the same since the cart itself wasn't being read (or needed), which is the whole point of encouraging the production of more games on physical carts by providing a way to read them on modern PCs. Maybe you're thinking of lazy instead of cheaper? Based on your attempt at sagaciousness, I mean.

And a transmogrifier is supposed to turn one thing into another so that label would be incorrect, anyway.

Ok, so you are confusing quite a few things here in your lazy attempt to use vinyl as a comparison.

1) I was never advocating for ripping game cartridges to digital before playing them (I was proposing the external cart reader as a live device for playing the game), I was saying that the carts could be read/played off of the reader into the PC (if the CD bay- mounted game console wasn't an option), much like your turntable playing vinyl records example. Now, if that's not how the Retrode 2 works then so be it though it would be cool to make something like that in the sense that the emulator would be reading off the cart exactly as the original game console would and, if it's a true emulator, how would it know that it's not the real console, anyway, it would expect a cartridge in the cart slot, yes? In this scenario the cartridge slot just happens to be external to the PC, connected via USB, there would be no local storage of the ROM and if you yank the cartridge the game would disappear.

2) Vinyl records are making a significant comeback (though still just a niche market), 260% growth since 2009, and while some of the resurgence is nostalgia that does not explain young buyers who never had a record player or vinyl records in their recent youth (and, for many, even their parents are too young to have had the experience). Some of the reasoning turns out to be that fans of vinyl love to have a physical version of the music they bought in their possession along with the unique "warmth" of analog sound. Those people are tired of digital downloads and want to "experience" music in its older format. Which, again, would be similar to wanting to play the actual game cartridge over its digital copy even if it takes more effort and gear.

3) Not many vinyl owners are sticklers for "original hardware". Many buy re-releases of old vinyl (the 180-gram better pressings, gatefold versions for albums that were never originally released that way) new and many buy current albums that never existed back when vinyl was supreme in vinyl form. On top of that, there is a healthy market for new audiophile turntables, needles, speakers, amplifiers, etc., that have nothing to do with maintaining old gear from the '70s and '80s. So having a new console in a drive bay on a PC or having an external game cartridge reader wouldn't violate your assumed original hardware mandate since almost nobody cares in the vinyl world or in the retro gaming world, otherwise game ROMs and emulators wouldn't exist.

4) Whaaaaaat?

Is that a USB turntable? And it's not just for ripping vinyl to flac files (no, only an idiot would rip vinyl to MP3), you can also play the vinyl album through the PC's speakers? https://www.noterepe...or-mac-computer

Why, that's madness! No, not madness, it's almost identical to playing a physical game cartridge through an emulator using an external USB reader. There is a desire there. Not a huge one, not something that can be sold in every GameSpot and Best Buy in the country, but we won't know until there is an option for playing games that way. Nobody saw vinyl returning at this rate, either, especially the "experts" sitting on their couches dismissing any suggestion of such.

5) Oddly, Amazon selling vinyl with a free digital download of the same album has boosted sales of vinyl, apparently because ripping a vinyl record is harder than ripping a CD. Those consumers welcome the digital files but they clearly still want the vinyl versions and aren't as in the mood to buy just the digital versions as they were a few years ago. I could see selling physical carts with free ROM files to create the same demand though that wouldn't be so significant without the external cartridge reader to generate demand for the physical game cartridges in the first place. I'd love to see Atari market an official Atari 2600 emulator along with a USB game cartridge reader with game controller ports but I can't rely on them to do anything cool right now.

Well, those points are all reasons TO have physical game releases, thanks for continuing to make my argument for me. keepdreamin, on 13 Mar 2017 - 4:51 PM, said:

Also, running a ROM normally isn't being lazy. It's called working smarter, not harder.

Work? What work is involved with running a ROM on an emulator? Maybe you don't know what "lazy" means, either?

Definition of lazy lazier; laziest 1 a : disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous The lazy child tried to avoid household chores. 2 b : encouraging inactivity or indolence a lazy summer day 3 : moving slowly : sluggish a lazy river 4 : droopy, lax a rabbit with lazy ears 5 : placed on its side lazy E livestock brand 6 : not rigorous or strict lazy scholarship So, going with the first definition, that's exactly what playing ROMs on an emulator is compared to hooking up an original game console, plugging in the cartridge and controllers, and playing the game that way (while also negating your vinyl comparison since digital downloads are less "work" than dealing with the turntable/amp/vinyl to hear the same songs). You don't want to step away from your PC and you don't want to deal with any more activity than using the PC for any other reason. But you go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back for thinking you're doing something you're not actually doing.

I agree about having a good working 2600 over other options (I own a modded 5200 and a Sears Tele-Games 2600 that I want to get modded, and a Vectrex). But buying one forces certain considerations -

1) Does it work?

2) How long will it work?

3) If it doesn't work/breaks, how do I get it fixed?

That doesn't even get to the problem of a diminishing market as more consoles get bought/modded/broken/cannibalized for parts (same as old muscle cars) so an option that supplies new hardware unconnected to the shrinking amount of original game consoles wouldn't just satisfy new retro gamers, but also those collectors of pure, original shit that don't want to find out that original spares are completely gone. I read about the end of new CRTs (for arcade games), that depressed me no end and I'm not even currently in the market for a new tube but I know I will be eventually.

Again, this market as I have described it (drive-bay game console or USB cartridge reader) doesn't even exist so it's impossible to say it wouldn't work or how well it would work. I certainly wouldn't have expected a 7th version of the Flashback, either. The vinyl resurgence (thanks again, keepdreamin) shows that there is a niche there for nostalgia that drives hunting down original used vinyl and turntables along with selling lots of new gear and new vinyl, it's not on the same scale as the rest of the music market but there was no way to know that it would be this big before it started. I think the same interests that drive a market like that would work in retro gaming, the NES Classic Edition is even more proof of that. Package it the right way, it will sell.

Agreed, but even if nobody else sees your collection, you aren't looking at an organized display of ROM files, are you? Assuming they're boxed games and not simply a pile of loose carts and CDs, they're displayed in some sort of coherent manner, yes? Not a dusty pile of carts and CDs in the corner? I don't have that many game carts compared to more dedicated collectors but the ones I have are organized by company/system, easily viewable on a bookshelf with some boardgames (mostly GDW sci-fi) and a row of PC books (Unix/Linux/languages) and another row of magazines (Retro Gamer, Linux Format) and some old arcade game manuals. Nothing impressive but presented nicely for anyone who might see them.

I'm just thinking of a way to generate more need for physical game cartridges beyond "go find an old game console on an auction site". Not everybody is in the mood for that hunt (and the possible disappointment of being scammed or buying something that breaks after a couple months) but they don't mind buying new shit, the Atari Flashbacks are proof of that. It would be far better if the Flashbacks had cartridge slots but even that wouldn't address 5200s, Vectrexes, Colecovisions, etc. People tend to like buying new gear (otherwise the smartphone market and tablet market would dry up) so something like a drive-bay 2600 would check that box for sure, but so would a USB cartridge reader + emulator. So, any arguments along the lines of too much work/ROMs are more convenient completely miss the point. Collecting in general is too much work for most people.

That is a good question. In a world where those were the only 2 choices I'd lean towards the amazing game that only saw a digital distribution (let's say, for the 5200, Tempest and Star Raiders as examples) but I'd still want some of the less amazing games with the packaging (maybe Qix and Pole Position) which I like but I wouldn't play nearly as much. Truly mediocre games like, say, Kangaroo (which I own from buying a group of like 5 games at once for a good price), I don't think I've played once.

The reality is that most games fall somewhere in the middle of your 2 choices and so I actually lean towards the amazing packaging choice. I bought Fury's version of Warrior for the Vectrex partly because of the packaging, along with its rarity and my memories of playing the arcade version. It's not a great game, just 2 guys fighting with swords, overhead view. Fury added to the home version so it's better but I waited over 2 years for the second copy I bought (for my brother). It was worth it even for a game that's nowhere near the level of Tempest or Red Baron or even Tail Gunner (which he will release this year). And Tail Gunner is more one-trick-pony than Warrior. But it's amazing to me even though in general it's probably middle of the pack.

Now, of course, "mediocre" and "amazing" mean different things to different people. I, for example, cannot stand most of the cute games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong so even though they're really popular and probably considered amazing or at least must- haves, I could care less if they're available or in what form or how closely they reproduce the arcade experience*. But I would consider Xevious to be amazing along with Space Dungeon (along with basically every vector arcade game) and Wizard Of Wor. The point I'm making is that what to you might be a mediocre game with great packaging might be a game I was waiting 5 years to buy, you'd still think I was getting excited for a mediocre game whereas to me it was an amazing game that I finally get to play on my home system.

* I will now contradict myself because in the case of Pac-Man I did pay for the Arcade Version for the 5200 and Atari 800 but in both cases that was for the novelty of having a rare, physical version of the game different from the original release. I plan on buying the 32K version of Zaxxon for the same reason, though I'm not sure because I'd want the box, too, and it seems that a boxed original Zaxxon is pretty expensive on eBay (I hope that the cartridge board can be swapped, too, because the Sega cartridge shell might be different). I also bought a boxed Sinistar from AtariAge even though it wasn't a game I played much, if at all, back in the day. I'd say that me buying these mediocre games is also partly due to the 5200 not having much choice to begin with (compared to the 2600), beggars can't be choosers.

That's not what I was talking about (though what you describe is impressive when done right and a pain when done badly). I'm talking about merely displaying the collection - these are all my games. With physical games (or books or whatever) that's easy, they're on a shelf or in a case - grab any one you want, check it out. But what of just a collection of ROM files? A ROM selector isn't a display of the ROM files themselves, it's a GUI for launching those files. There's no good way to display your collection beyond an 'ls' of the subdirectory they're in. Besides that, you're not going to leave that file browser open for view 24/7 like a bookshelf would be. I like the launcher for Atari Greatest Hits on my Android phone, the little arcade games that can be swiped right or left, but that isn't a display of the actual ROM files, either, anymore than displaying JPGs of my physical boxed game cartridges is the same as a display of the actual games. If someone tells you he wants to show you his collection of restored muscle cars and then, when you go to his house, he shows you a bunch of images of the cars, you're going to give him a "what the fuck is this" look, you're expecting to see the actual cars. A collection of digital data isn't really displayable in the normal sense.

And, in either case, there's no real "work" involved, they're both static displays of collections. Once organized the first time, the work, such as it is, is done, whether that means a case full of physical game cartridges or a subdirectory of ROM files. But one is far more visually impressive than the other. If you don't agree with that then compare the number of posts of people linking pics of their physical collections of games with the number of posts of people linking pics of their computer monitors showing screen captures of file browsers with lists of ROM files in them - holy shit, he has Donkey Kong and all the sequels and he's renamed them in all-caps with release dates!

None of that is the actual collection of ROMs on your computer (or MAME cabinet). You're talking about other shit, the acquisition of the ROMs (CD rips) and playing the ROMs (the emulator). What I'm talking about (among other things but you seem to be obsessed with this point) is the simple act of displaying a collection of games. Not the device that plays the games, not the gear you used to convert the games.

Attract mode demos and slick GUIs would be akin to making a slick display case complete with labels and blinking electric signs for the shelving holding the boxed game cartridges. And that may be worth doing, I don't know, but that isn't the actual collection of games, either. Nobody cares what the shelf is made out of or where it came from, the interest in is the collection of games itself.

Neither do I. Keatah brought that up, not me. For what reason I don't know since a discussion of displaying a collection of video games wouldn't mean the front-end GUI to a MAME cabinet or multicart, I can only guess that it was an attempt to show that digital files can be displayed in a cool way, too, though what he described wasn't the display of the actual ROM files anyway. That you ran with the mistake isn't surprising. Stick with what I was originally talking about, the collecting of video games which for many people includes, per the definition, the display of the collection, you'll be far less confused.

That wasn't my scenario, that ROM box idea was Keatah's (or yours if that's not what he meant). Playing some old [system name here] games is separate from collecting and displaying them since, as Eltigro mentioned,

"And as far as displaying the collection or whatever. I think that's mostly for me. I like sitting back and looking at them even if I don't play anything."

Many collectors are like that. Don't open the sealed boxes! Some never take the action figures/Hot Wheels out of the boxes, some never drive their restored cars except for on and off the trailers. So your assumption that someone being shown a video game collection would really be a conversation about playing them is ridiculous. Unless you insist on misunderstanding what is being proposed, that is.

Maybe so. Certainly to you. But that has got dick to do with those collectors who love to display their collections of boxed game cartridges, whether just for themselves or for others. A Raspberry Pi loaded with games would be useless in that scenario unless we're talking about a collection of small, functional computing devices that are used to play retro video games, then the various Raspberry Pis, Arduinos and tablets would be an interesting collection. To be displayed, no way!

Again, probably true for most people and, again, a useless comparison with those people who love to collect physical things (game cartridges/systems, vinyl records, hardcover books, action figures) and display them even if they don't really plan to use them as initially intended (don't want to play the games since the games are sealed or they worry about damage, don't want to play the vinyl records because the records will get dusty/worn, don't want to damage the spines of the old hardcover books or crease the dry pages, don't want to play with the action figures because that would mean unsealing the packaging or possibly breaking the figure or losing an accessory). I'm not sure why you act like you've never heard of collectors with that sort of paranoia about condition and damage.

Just stick to "displaying a collection". Understand what that means, and how a collection of physical objects would be far more interesting and cool and easy to display for viewing vs. a collection of ROM files or JPGs or other purely digital representations. Playing the games is a separate desire, having the convenience of an emulator or multicart being able to play all the games without having to deal with actual game cartridges is a separate desire, neither has anything to do with displaying those games as a collection. Do you understand the difference here? It's not that difficult.