interview

INTERVIEW with Professor

Sebastiano Maffettone

Sebastiano Maffettone is a philosopher and is Pro- fessor of Political Philosophy at the Roman Univer- sity LUISS, where he is Dean of the Faculty of Poli- tical Science. Director of the Center for Ethics and Global Politics, he was a visiting professor at the , where he taught Public Ethics. He has also taught at , Tufts, , University of Pennsylvania, New Delhi, University of London and political sciences (Paris). He has published many essays; translated and disseminated in Italy the work of the American philosopher, , theorist of the 'realistic Utopia'. He was the first President of the Italian So- ciety of Political Philosophy, founder and present director of the review 'Filosofia e Questioni Pubbli- che' (Philosophy & Public Questions). He coopera- tes with various newspapers, among which 'Il Mat- tino', 'Il Corriere della Sera' 'Il Sole 24 ore' and 'Pa- norama'.

Sebastiano Maffettone is a philosopher, professor of political philosophy, born and graduated in Naples, with an international education and teaching experience in the most important American and European universities. With simplicity, effectiveness and that subtle sense of humour, rich in irony and Neapolitan wisdom, he answers the questions of Gnosis on the social subjects nearest to the realities tied to security, to uncertainness and to the cultural and economic evolutions of our day.

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You are a professor of political philosophy …. today as never before there seem to be two antithetical realities, is this true?

Seemingly, they are two distant realities, two parallel paths that meet, especially, in moments of crisis and suffering. For example, historically, Ari- stotle and Plato write at the end of the Athenian and Kant after the French revolution. The interesting point is that it seems almost as if there is a correspondence between moments of crisis and development of philosophical thought … if this is true, now could be one of the right moments why philosophy and poli- tics can converge. In the last fifty years, the two realities have met at least once - with Rawls' theory of justice - which insofar as he was, above all, a theoretical philosopher who classified certain aspects of the political democracy as a social contract, probably he was far-seeing; it is no coincidence that the last Manual of politi- cal philosophy by Rawls, first section, first chapter, is entitled 'The era of Rawls'. Perhaps, today, there is a need of this synergy to provide vital new li- feblood to render the political institutions more believable and reliable.

Why do politics appear to have ceded primacy to the economy, and not only in Italy?

The path is ancient …. the true fact is that politics and economy, in sub- stance, are not two different things, even though operating in different ambits, they are very similar worlds and mechanisms. For example, let us take the ty- pe of instruments of the two concepts: in both cases, in the democracy and in the market, preferences are expressed and balances are obtained. The supporting structures of the society: economy and market, politics and democracy are very similar. Keeping in mind the fact that one cannot ge- neralize in abstract, one cannot prescind from the material conditions of life and, therefore, also ethics, i.e. what is right, above all, for the society, one can- not set aside the subsistence, that minimum of well-being common to the citi- zens, otherwise everything becomes abstraction. What should be avoided in the binomial 'politics and economy' is that the one does not condition too much the other: there must not be variations of ba- lance pushed too much one way or the other to diminish the excesses that are able to provoke socially significant phenomena, such as the tendency to the disappearance of the middle class.

In these periods of long stagnation and then recession, do we run the risk of losing identity, the sense of belonging to a social level?

Certainly there is the risk of losing much. In the United States, which is a paradigmatic Country, there has been a strong bipolarization: the rich classes have been little affected by the taxation and the poor have been left to fend for

4 interview themselves; the middle class - which was the strength of America - is disap- pearing. The disappearance of the middle class weighs heavily also on the economy and on the industrial growth because it is the class that ensures stan- dard and regular consumption, which keeps the shopping centers and super- markets on their feet. The real problem of the identity crisis which has, for now, hit only the Uni- ted States, but which can spread to other Countries - including ours - is the feeling of loss of confidence in oneself, together with the perception that the global changes will make the retrieval of a winning identity more and more difficult.

Has the new poverty, the atrophy of the middle class, and the greater precariousness increased forms of aggressiveness?

In Italy, I do not see this risk, at least for the moment. The indexes of crimi- nality are basically stable … certainly if the economic situation should deterio- rate further, and for a long time, multiplying the risks of poverty, it is possible that forms of social aggressiveness will occur, dictated by the basic necessities of survival.

Does a public ethic still exist?

The public ethic exists and is in crisis, I am aware of this by being in con- stant contact with the young people. In the young the confidence in the future is diminished and, in particular, the awareness that by simply studying and committing oneself is not sufficient to obtain professional and social success. They think that without the inevitable support of a recommendation - which, in their opinion is, at times more effective than a degree - their commitment is simply an unobtainable utopia. This is a self-destructive mechanism because if there is no commitment to create this merit for oneself, there will be this absolute need of support in the future and, therefore, it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prediction.

Is ideology dead or is it only in a long sleep?

The pure ideology, in the Marxist sense, believes that ideas are not neutral or natural, but are conditioned by the relationships between the classes. The- refore, it is better to have ideas; ideology is blind to changes, blind to history, it is a rubber wall, therefore, it is certainly better to have ideas and seek to ap- ply them in history, it is better to separate ideas from ideology and continue to think … the risk is that one no longer thinks enough or one is hampered by complicated bureaucratic procedures which takes time away from thinking, the elaboration of ideas and research.

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How has the working world changed without the concept of 'the permanent job' and with a particular conception of 'labour mobility'?

They create confusion, fear and uncertainty. One of the components of dif- ficulty is also the lack of security parameters for other types of impermanent work. There is not adequate protection for social security, no greater economic incentives or, strong 'parachutes'. If the usual security parameters are lacking, often the prerequisites for building an independent life are also absent, such as the acquisition of a house, the signing of a mortgage and the provision for a family.It is necessary, however, to get used to the disappearance of the tradi- tional permanent job, and to this end, increase the safeguards for the citizen, adapting also the guarantee requests of the banks to the new typologies of work and paying a little more to those who work constantly in precarious im- permanent positions.

What do you think of the university formation and career guidance for the young?

Negli Atenei è basilare lo studio, non credo sia necessaria una imposta- zione pragmatica. Nelle Università della pragmatica America – dove ho inse- gnato per anni – la ricerca filosofica è considerata molto importante, senza astrazione non c’è creatività. Nei Paesi più poveri e più veramente pragmati- ci si studia prevalentemente per diventare ingegneri e medici, i Paesi più ric- chi possono consentirsi aree più speculative per creare filosofi, letterati e arti- sti. Quello che può essere utile per incrementare l’apertura mentale è una fa- se di studio all’estero – per esempio l’Erasmus – badando sempre a non to- gliere l’aspetto di ‘sacralità’ degli studi e dell’istruzione. All’Università si de- ve studiare perché se si studia bene il lavoro si può apprendere con maggiore facilità.

Is the street protest more fragmented due to the virtual debate of Internet or to the lack of leadership and aggregating charisma?

Certainly, we are in a moment of lack of charisma and as Hegel - a great philosopher - said, the essence of politics is mediation: it is just this mediation that has been cancelled in two senses; on the one side, there are no longer fil- ters because each person speaks directly with another, the relationship is on a one to one basis, both in the real world and, even more, in the world of Inter- net, with the various Facebooks and Twitters. Then there is a problem tied to the not very high level of competence of the eventual leaders and to the relia- bility of the world of the parties. In short, the liability is lacking - that which contributed to create mediation and communication now remains entrusted to the informatics instruments and, above all, to the cell-phone - with which one speaks, one chats, one twitters and one shares without ever really entering into contact.

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Why do the majority of the citizens of Europe feel less European and more 'children of their State'?

There are, in fact, two concepts: one regards the Nation part and the other regards the State part: from the Nation point of view - the cultural and ethnic aspects - much time is still needed to overcome, by way of an example, the dif- ferences between a Frenchman and a German, even though many barriers ha- ve fallen and no-one could ever imagine, today, a war between the French and the Germans. Then there is the political aspect, the State, the sovereignty, and Europe is a transnational organization that accepts on principle the plurality of the States - it is not a federal State like the United States. So, it is necessary to strengthen the capacity of believing in a common project, taking advantage of the absolute absence of belligerence - in existence for years now - within the European context.

Is the Italian society ready for the multiculturalism and multi-ethnicity?

Yes, I think so, even though the economic crisis naturally does not help. In general, the Italians are respectful towards others … every now and again, there can be unpleasant episodes, but they are episodes exacerbated by the cri- sis. We need an economy that is a little more florid and a few more structures. Many times, the problem is tied to fear of those ethnic groups who practi- ce religions that can influence the areas of personal freedom, like certain forms of Islamism.

Can fundamentalism and religious extremism still generate terrorism at an interna- tional level?

In Europe, for example, in France and Germany, there is much Islamic im- migration and it can happen that there are risks tied to unstructured religious fundamentalism, there is the risk of the lone-wolf terrorist, home grown per- haps, of second generation - this is the most possible hypothesis which arou- ses fear.

What role can the Intelligence have in prevention?

The Intelligence has an extremely important role, above all, in the case of terrorism, of undercover operations and of other sectors of particular delicacy and secrecy. The problem is communication because democracy is based on transpa- rency and the Intelligence actions cannot be based on total transparency, the- refore, responsible politics are extremely necessary, which act as mediation between two different needs that must both be respected, because we need both the democratic transparency and the discretional reserve of the Intelli- gence.

7 interview

Are cyber wars actually perceived as a real danger?

It is a sector very much tied to the view that one has of the cyberspace. The first is that of the liberalist (free trade) for which the cyberspace cannot and must not be controlled; the second thesis is that of the post-modernist commu- nists, who want to collectivize everything, and the third view is the interme- diate one i.e. that which requires the elaboration of systems which allow the identification of the persons who use the Internet, by applying a relative con- trol which can trace and find out who is doing what. For example, when I taught at Harvard, I remember that it was not possi- ble to utilize the Internet network unless one was 'identified': or one used a private computer, declaring one's data, or used a University computer that supplied user-id and password for access. Therefore, everything is possible; it depends on the control structures of the system which create a kind of mediation between the requirements of an essential margin of control to avoid excessive exposure and the requirements of protection of people's freedom, without oppression and with respect for privacy.

To what extent can artificial intelligence be helpful and how much might 'atrophy' certain characteristics of the human brain?

This is a period in which more informatics than artificial intelligence is used. The latter is a very abstract category, which is part of the computer science. Instead, informatics belongs more to the social consequences. Nowa- days, there is a great tendency to the creation of systems based on the algo- rithm, able to create contacts between persons or categories which can consti- tute enrichment for information.

Scientific and technological progress is changing the stages of existence, from artificial fecundation to the unacceptability of the idea of death as a natural event: what is the value of life?

Progress is changing life in many ways and at a vertiginous speed. We can- not think of defeating death, but we must think of living as best we can: the problem is 'to accompany life' to the end; to pretend that death does not exist would be unnatural.

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